(bouncy jazz music) >> Announcer: From our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley Palo Alto, California, this is a CUBE Conversation. >> Hello, and welcome to theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto, California for another CUBE conversation where we go in-depth with thought leaders driving innovation across the tech industry. I'm your host, Peter Burris. We all know it's going to be a Multicloud world. How we get to that world is anybody's guess. Every enterprise is going to find themselves going on a distinct and original journey based on where they are and based on where they think they want to go. But one of the common elements that every enterprise is going to face is how to deal with the network that's going to make it easier or more difficult for them to utilize new services, place data in different places, and assure security wherever the business needs to operate. SD-WAN is a technology that's been talked about for quite some time as a technology that could make that process easier, more certain, but there are a lot of options that are relatively new that don't feature a lot of customers and a lot of experience having been built into them. So that's one of the challenges that every enterprise faces, how to utilize SD-WAN to make their journey more simple, more economical, and more complete, and to have that conversation, we're joined by a CEO today, Jeff Brown, who's a CEO of Open Systems. Jeff, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you very much, Peter. >> Pete: So, Jeff, tell us a little bit about Open Systems. I know you've only been there for three weeks, but (Jeff laughs) what's the starting point for you? >> Well I think why do you come to a company like Open Systems? For me, there was a part of it that's about the people and liking the people that are there. I haven't met anyone I didn't like so far, which is always a great sign, but, more importantly, I think it's how they treat their customers and how you see the benefits of what they're doing for their customer set out there. Companies have been in business, as you know, a long time over in Europe, and we have a very, very large customer base over there, and we're fairly well-known over there with a lot of very happy customers. And that was a big draw for me, which is, now, it's time to take the next step over in the US and other places and get the name known for that what it really is, which is a very good solution. >> Well, SD-WAN has been a concept that's growing in appeal for quite some time, but Open Systems, as you said, has a base of customers in Europe that are actually doing it. So that gives you and Open Systems kind of an interesting visibility into the real nature of the problems of this. Tell us a little bit about what your customers are telling Open Systems about the need for SD-WAN and the evolution here. >> Sure, I think about SD-WAN as sort of the on-ramp to the highway of the Cloud and all the Cloud can bring to that. One of the benefits I inherit here is 15 years or better of building a platform that's designed for this. Before, there was SD-Wan, and before there was probably a lot of the Cloud service and service as a service concept, these guys were really starting to build the underpinnings of that already, and it gives us a huge advantage because a lot of the things, the depth and the breadth that platform is already built there that other people really still have to build. So I really like the position of the company from that standpoint. We've been able to take that to a lot of customers in the financial sector and manufacturing and a whole variety of others over in Europe and have these incredibly high NPS scores that people really resonate, the service resonates with them. So I like to say, when you think about this, most people don't operate an exchange server in their office anymore. It's all moving to the Cloud. Well, your network has to move that direction as well. And SD-WAN is one of the key components of that. >> So you've seen the the nature of the problem, which is that, increasingly, resources in the tech industry are being positioned as services. Your data is not necessarily going to move. The real goal is to try to bring those services to the data. That places a special and intense demand on the nature of networks. The data is going to not always be in the same place. The service may not always come from the same source. The network has to be able to respond to that. Tell us a little bit about how this class of solution is going to make it easier for businesses to sustain and maintain operations around this increasingly flexible, changing world of Cloud services. >> Sure, and you mentioned in the intro about Multicloud and some of those things. That's clearly a direction that a lot of this is going. We have customers today that are working cross-Clouds. That's one of the things our platform can enable is Multicloud solutions. And the way we think of this is you have pillars underneath your platform, but, as I mentioned, sort of the on-ramp to all this is SD-WAN. Then, you've got security and various versions of security as to how far you want to go. Other services like a SOC as a service concept-- >> Security Operations Center. >> Yeah, as a service concept across these different things. So there's lots of things that this begins to enable when you have that really strong base that's out there, and customers are more and more demanding those kind of services. You do have to think differently now. I mean, that's essentially it. The landscape is changing just like dial-up modems wouldn't work in today's digital environment. You have to think about what's that next generation look like? >> So 15 years of workin' over in Europe, fair number of customers that you're workin' with, gettin' a fair amount of feedback from them. You've mentioned it's a platform. You mentioned it's got SAS elements to it. You're introducing new classes of services, but where in particular is Open Systems today that others are still tryin' to figure out how to get there? >> Well, you have, I think, as a core here, the concept of as-a-service. So we've been doing this, as I said, for 15 years, where we come in and said, "You don't have to do it the old way. "You don't have to buy equipment, get your own connectivity, "do all that kind of thing, "and put it together into a..." We've been doing that, and we have all the underpinnings of that. And that's the difference right there. If you're a CIO, you want to be strategic. You need to be strategic, but you're dragged into the operational on a regular basis. And is that a waste of intellectual capital? Probably, at a minimum, it's that. And so there's lot of things that we help with, and we've heard from our customers that there's a real financial benefit to being able to essentially move your network into the Cloud along with your other services. So that's the concept. >> So the vision that you have is that the CIO and the business would think about the characteristics, the capabilities that are required of the network, and then it would use Open Systems to implement that so that it becomes a working, operational platform over which data can move. Have I got that right? >> Absolutely. Absolutely, you're spot-on. This is, again, a solution, end-to-end solution that we can put in place that takes all the guesswork out of it for 'em. They don't have to worry about technology decisions that may or may not be right or staying state-of-the-art along the way and handling all those other services. And we see this really as a solution for the next generation network. Are we going to do everything? No. We'll have partners. We do have partners today. We're goin' be acquiring people along the way to bring pieces of this into the puzzle as well. So there's lots of things that are goin' into that, but we know that that next generation looks a lot different than what's been there before. >> Let's build on that. So given that every CIO knows that we're in the midst of a transformative period. They're very concerned about making technology bets that might run out of runway sooner rather than later. They want to be open. They want to make it possible. They want those options. Given that Open Systems has had 15 years thinking about this, what are some of the areas that you think are particularly important for CIOs to worry about to ensure they have that kind of open headroom? >> Well, one of the things is: As a service company, we get to have the luxury of controlling the entire environment. When you're building from a hardware and connectivity standpoint, you don't as a matter of fact. And a lot of places, they have mixed environments, so nothing quite works the way it should together. And I think our benefit over 15 years, as you and I both talked about, is the fact that we've prodded through a lot of this already. So the upgrades that have to happen, the changes in technology, we handle that for you, and we can implement that without a massive Box upgrade path out there in the field. So a lot of that is just, as I said, a service that we offer then to take the guesswork out of that so that the CIO can spend his time trying to figure out what the strategic direction should be for his information or the company in general rather than getting bogged down in operational details. >> So you've been strong in Europe. You're trying to expand your presence in Europe. Here in the US, European companies have brought you to the US. They brought you to Asia. That's got to be an exciting proposition for Open Systems, is thinking about expanding with your customers. Tell us a little bit about some of the priorities that you have for the company. >> Well, it's a very interesting time for us. I like to say we're the best-kept secret in the US. We have a huge number of very happy customers-- As I said, that's one of the things that attracted me to the business-- Over in Europe, and we have a number that are starting here in the US. But then, whereas we're well-known for this over in Europe, we haven't gotten the message here yet, which is part of the next stage of the company. We're doin' business in 184 countries across the world with our customer base today. And now, it's just to get the message out about what we can do, which I think is radically different than a lot of people. We're seeing some of the other people in the market try to go this direction, but as you know, it takes an awfully long time to build that platform that's strong enough to hold up to the rigors that a big company puts a network through. >> And it's very difficult. I mean, there's so many SD-WAN options out there today, (Jeff laughs) but one of the things that distinguishes you guys is you actually have a customer base, and having a customer base for a technology that is as complex, ubiquitous, platform-like as WD-WAN provides an enormous advantage because you already got people using it, telling you it works, telling you it could be better, giving you visibility in where it should go for their business. That puts you guys in a special position. So if I think in, say, 2025, 2028, where do you think this SD-WAN thing goes? Is it just still SD-WAN? Are we thinking differently about how these services are being brought to customers? >> I sort of view SD-WAN as it's the on-ramp to the freeway, right? You get into the platform or the freeway or however you want to describe it with that tool, but there's awful lot of other things you have to have to make it really go. Security obviously a big piece of that. But then, things like analytics. How do I optimize my network? A lot of our customers are huge multi-nationals that have everything from very small branch offices to big ones. How do you optimize your buy around that so that you're taking risk out as well as performing at the best, obviously dollar-wise, the best performance for you. And we can help with that. So analytics, statistics, all those kind of things are packages that go on top of that, that, much like you'd get in your Cloud services today are going to be the next generation, right? That's where you got to go, and our customers are driving us that direction, saying, "These are the kind of decisions we need to make. "Help us make them." >> Again, three weeks, you probably met with maybe half dozen, a dozen customers. Give us some of the kind of the excitement that some of your customers are talking about where they want to go. >> Well, one of them is, nothing ever works if there's not some sort of financial benefit to that, and one of the nice things that we've seen from our customer set is a very typically 25 to 30% almost immediate impact on the bottom line. They're saving money by doing this and bringing that to us. That and the fact that they no longer have to make technology or hardware bets anymore. That's gone from their thing. So they can actually focus on what the services should do and the best-in-class and those kind of things. So what I've heard from our customer set is they value the fact that we're taking away sort of the operational-- What's not fun. The operational link, making it work everyday and the applications that have to go in that, and they can then get more strategic on, "How do we make the next move with our data?" >> Spending less for more, better options. If you could do that in Wall Street, you'd be a trillionaire? (Jeff laughs) Right? (Jeff laughs) >> Jeff: Yeah, yeah. (laughs) Jeff Brown, CEO of Open Systems. Thanks very much for being on theCUBE. >> Jeff: Thanks, Peter. >> Thanks for joining us for another CUBE Conversation. I'm Peter Burris. See you next time. (funky horn music)

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: From our studios, in the heart of Silicon Valley, Palo Alto, California, this is a CUBE Conversation. >> Hello, everyone. Welcome to this CUBE Conversation here in Palo Alto, California. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. We're here with David Martin who's the senior director, project management threat response at Open Systems. Dave, thanks for coming in. >> Thanks, John, very much for having me. >> So we were talking before we came on camera. We've both been around the industry for a while, seen a lot of different waves of innovation. Security is the top one. We're seeing it being a really important, not just part of IT, and we want to get into a deep dive on the complexities or on the security architecture versus cloud architecture. And it's just not another IT, so I want to dig deep with you. Before we start, talk about your product. You're the senior director product management. You get the keys to the kingdom. You're working on the positioning, the next generation. Take a minute to just to talk about the product. >> Sure, happy to share the product. Starting point is Open Systems in general. We're a global provider of secure SD-WAN, and essentially we deliver that as a service. So we deliver the connectivity and all of the security that you need to make sure you can conduct business reliably and safely. I'm personally responsible for some of our managed services, managed continuous monitoring services, and essentially what we're doing is looking for advanced threats that have bypassed whatever a company's existing security controls are in an effort to identify those and then ultimately contain them. >> We were at the Amazon Web Services first cloud security conference, Re:Inforce, and it was interesting 'cause it wasn't like your traditional industry event like RSA, Black Hat or DEF CON. It was really more of a cloud security, so it was really more of the folks thinking about the impact of cloud and what that means. So cloud certainly is relevant. It's expanding capabilities with application. The on-premises piece really is the hybrid. And obviously, every company pretty much has multiple clouds, that's multi-cloud. But hybrid really is the top conversation. It's been really kind of on the table since 2013 timeframe, but now more than ever it's actually part of the operational thinking around architecting next generation infrastructure systems. >> Yes. >> How does security fit into those two things? Because you've got to have the on-premise operational model. You've got to have the cloud operational model. They've got to be seamless through working together. How does security fit within cloud and hybrid from you guys' perspective? >> That's a great question, and certainly introducing the cloud into the equation adds complexity to the overall issue. And as you've highlighted, companies are now operating in a hybrid mode. They have assets on-premise. They have assets in the cloud, and security teams, certainly over the course of time, as this business transformation has happened, had to rethink how are we going to approach and secure these assets correctly. And it is non-trivial, and the key is that you want to get telemetry from all your potential attack surfaces. And you want to be thoughtful about how you're pulling in this data. This is a mistake that we unfortunately see a lot of customers making which is in a rush to provide visibility, they just aggregate and accept all log data from all different sources without much thought into what is the security-relevant data there, and what are my default rule sets going to be? How am I going to use this data in a threat-detection kind of a capacity? And these are kind of the typical pitfalls that a lot of companies make, but to kind of bring it back to your point-- >> Hold on, I just want to get that one point. They take in too much data, or they're just ingesting way too much? Is that the issue? >> It's not necessarily the volume. It's more about the quality of what they're getting, and a lot of the vendors, there's a product many interviewers will see, SSIM, essentially is a log collector, and security teams use this piece of software to try and identify threats. And of course for compliance and other reasons, a common thing to do is just throw data at the SSIM so you could start collecting it. And that makes sense if you're just trying to store data, but when you're trying to actually figure out has someone infiltrated my network, that really a nightmare because you're sort of inundated. And you've heard terms like the work fatigue and so on, and this is what happens. And so we have a practice that we're essentially when you bring in and ingest a log source, do some upfront work about that log source and how are you going to use the data. What are the relevant fields that you're going to parse out and index on? And have a purpose for doing that versus just sort of throwing it out there. >> Yeah, I mean data quality and data cleaning and going into a pile of data versus a front-end kind of vetting process, being intelligent about it. >> That's right, that's right. Yeah, and it's a tough thing, right, because all the vendors in that space, they want you to use the tool. Enterprises have made this investment. But we find that a lot of companies aren't getting the value out of some of their security tools because it's sort of a broader design. What is the architecture of the detection we're going to use to cover our potential attack surfaces? >> Yeah, that comes up a lot in our data science conversations, and you hear correlation versus causation. A lot of data science naturally love correlation. They love the data. They get knee-deep in the data. But then they can correlate, but they might not be understanding actually what's going on. This is highlighted with threat response because the acute nature of what a threat means to the business is not just knowing how to have the right ad serve up or some sort of retail sales proposition. Threat detection and threat response is super critical to the business because if you miss it, there's some consequences and you eventually go out of business. So that's really kind of a key focus. How do you guys do that? How do you work with customers? Because that's the core issue, how do I get the best data, the fastest way in? How do I identify the threats first and fast? >> Yeah, I think you're on an incredibly important point which is as an industry, we have to ask ourselves why do damaging breaches continue to happen despite best efforts, right? There's very knowledge, talented people. There's a lot of money being spent. There's over $100 billion per year as an industry spent on security and security-related software, and yet these damaging breaches continue to occur. And I think a big challenge, a big reason for this is that as an industry we've pursued a technology-driven security model. And for years, we've sort of had the idea that if we purchased the latest anti-virus or the latest IDS or web proxy or now we're starting to shift into ML and AI and sort of more higher-level things that we'll be protected. That was sort of the idea and the promise. And I think that in general, people are realizing that that is a failed model, and that really, the best way to minimize risk is to combine those types of technology with continuous monitoring. And obviously we're in that business. We monitor people's networks. But there are many companies that do that, and security's a very complex system that doesn't have a feedback loop without continuous monitoring. And just like in life, any complex system should have a feedback loop to have it operating properly. >> Well, let's talk about that complex system. So I want to spend the next couple minutes with you talking about the security architecture versus cloud architecture. We cover a lot of experts talking about cloud architecture. Here's how you architect for cloud. Here's how you architect for hybrid and so on. And it's super important. You've got the data layer. You've got to understand how data moves, when to move compute versus data, all kinds of things that are factoring in. Essentially, it's like an operating system kind of design. So it's distributed computing, and everyone kind of knows that that's in the business. But when you add in security as now the key driver, security architecture might supersede cloud architecture and/or distributed architecture. So I got to ask you, if security is a complex system and not just an IT purchase, what is the customer's ideal configuration? How do they either replatform or course correct what they're currently doing? What's your thoughts on that? >> Sure. >> Well, do you agree that it's a complex system? It's not just another IT procurement. >> Absolutely, I think it's a great way to say that, and that really is the way that sort of forward-thinking companies think about minimizing risk is they look at it for exactly as kind of you characterized it. And I think the key is to essentially look at your individual technology. Today they're in silos, largely, and you need continuous monitoring to kind of pool all of that data that you're getting together and then use that to adjust policy. And you need to do that continually over time. I like to say security's a journey, not a destination, right? You're sort of never done if you're doing it well because threat actors evolve their techniques and the detection needs to evolve, too, right along with that. And so getting into that practices is good practice to do to minimize your risk >> And CISOs are now being established, either working directly peering with the CIO or for the CIO or vice versa. They're becoming more prominent, so the role of security, I'll say agree, it's always on. It's never off 'cause it's never going to stop. But the question is how do you implement that because if I have continuous monitoring, which I see as clearly valuable, do I have one firm for that? Can I have multiple firms for that? And then of the tools, if I'm the CISO, I'm probably trying to downshift into only a handful, not dozens of companies. >> No, you're absolutely right. >> Shrinkage, better monitoring, it's the trend. What's your response? >> Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. I think there's been studies that have shown the average large enterprise has about 32 security vendors that they have to deal with. And so certainly from a CISO perspective, a lot of the ones that I speak to are in the mode where they're trying to consolidate and simplify that landscape 'cause it just makes things a lot easier. But I think in terms of the cloud and that whole piece, I'll give you one practical example. All these cloud vendors have APIs, administrative APIs, and certainly you can monitor who's accessing the cloud. But you can also deduce things from these APIs. You can look for signs that the infrastructure may have been compromised, instances stopping and starting, certificates that have been uploaded. So even though you may not have complete visibility, and by the way, it's getting better. All three major infrastructure as service providers are starting to provide access to packet data which is helpful in this context. But even just looking at it from the outside, the administrative layer, there are things, abnormal behaviors with the way that infrastructure's working that you can use to indicate that yeah, there might be an issue here. And then you'll want to go and use other data to figure that out, for sure. >> You got to really dig into it, and so again, on the technology side, you guys had success with a product. You guys are not a new company. You've been around for decades. Great reviews on the product side, so congratulations. >> David: Thank you. >> What makes the product so successful? What are some of the notable highlights? Can you share the most successful pieces of the products? Why are people liking it so much? >> Sure, sure, well, I mean all of the reasons why people look to outsource things, certainly we provide the value, less cost, more responsive. But I think what's unique about what we do is our delivery model. There's a very popular DevOps sort of model in fashion these days where essentially you have developers and QA people testing together and there's various definitions. But from a network operations perspective, the people that run our network and our SOC are the developers. They're the ones writing and optimizing our platform. And so when there are issues, customers talk to knowledge people about that. It's not a traditional call center model. And then the other thing from a threat detection perspective is we're working on a model where we have essentially security analysts responsible for some number of customers. And they get to know that environment really well. And that really informs the quality of the threat detection because the better you know the environment that you're monitoring, the better the accuracy of the threat detection's going to be. And as an outsource provider, a lot of companies don't do this. It's an expensive thing to do, but it does result in a better product. So that's one thing to focus on. >> Awesome, I want to ask you, Dave, about AI. I'm a huge fan of AI, love it because unlike IOT, which I love that too 'cause it's a exciting area, my kids aren't talking about IOT at the dinner table, but AI, the young people are getting energized and really it's attracting a lot of people to the computer industry, which I think is awesome. But also, AI is not really as big as people think it is. Certainly, it's going to be important. AI's machine learning with some bells and whistles. But most people say, "I'll just throw AI at the problem." AI is not that yet advanced, I mean, what AI really, truly can become. So I want to get your thoughts around that classic, knee-jerk response that a customer might get fed from a supplier. "Hey, we have AI Ops, so we're an AI-driven company." What the hell does that even mean? I mean, why is it important, and where does it really matter? Where are people using technology that is going to be a road map for AI? Is it machine learning? How do you guys see that customer equation? What's the snake oil pitch from others? What's real, what's not? >> Sure, yeah, I often tell customers that I wouldn't want to be in their shoes 'cause it's very confusing. All the vendors throw around the terms ML and AI with the promise that's it's going to cure all problems. And it's really difficult to tell the value that you're going to get from those technologies. And so I'll share with you my perspective on that which is that certainly there's a legitimate technology there, but I think we are in this kind of hype cycle where there's an overpromise of what it can deliver. And in a security context, I think techniques like machine learning and AI can be used to reduce noise and amplify signal. And I think the mistake a lot of people make is let's take the human out of the equation here. And I have to tell you that the human is fantastic in the little gray areas that threat actors love to exploit. Looking and saying this doesn't look quite right to me because I know this environment and this is not usually here. And you'd get that by working with the data, but in order to position yourself for success on that, you have to use sort of this technology you're highlighting to take care of the commodity kind of things that would otherwise create it. >> So augment, do the non-differentiated stuff. It's like heavy lifting that you want to assist the human. >> You want to assist the human in the process. That's exactly right. >> That's not replacement of the human. >> That's right, and I think a lot of companies go wrong thinking that AI can replace this wholly. And maybe there's some very specific applications where that's true, but in general where you're managing very large, diverse environments, you need to use these type of technologies, to again, reduce noise and amplify the signal for the human part of it. >> One of the things we've been riffing on theCUBE, certainly we can talk about it on another topic on another time is that this whole movement of using machine learning and the AI infrastructure that's developing really fast which is really exciting is that's going to create a whole new creative class within IT and security where the creativity of the human becomes the intellectual property for the opportunity. >> Dave: Absolutely. >> Do you see that? >> I do, I think that's fair. I mean, I think we're kind of early on in the development cycle of these types of technologies, and they show a lot of promise. And it's the classic don't overindex on it. And again, even in the security context, you have a lot of SSIM vendors now, essentially adding analytics modules and AI. And, again, these can be helpful, but don't count on them to solve all the problems. They need to be rationalized and purposeful. >> Well, certainly security is really growing from a discipline within an enterprise to a much more holistic feel, the aperture, whether it's management, the technology experts and practitioners, it's expanding rapidly. >> David: Yeah. >> David, thanks so much for coming on theCUBE. Dave Martin, senior director product management threat response at Open Systems, breaking down their opportunity in security and talking about some of the trends here on theCUBE, CUBE Conversation. I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> from our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley, Palo Alto, California It is a cute conversation >> lover on Welcome to this cube conversation here in Palo Alto, California. The Cube Studio. I'm John for the co host of the Cube Weird Sylvan shop. Who's the head of solution Architecture and open systems securing Esti win of right of other cloud to point out like capabilities. Very successful. 20 plus years. Operation Civil was the one of the first folks are coming over to the US to expand their operation from Europe into New York. Now here in Silicon Valley. Welcome to the Cube conversation. Thank you. So instituting trivia. You were part of the original team of three to move to the U. S. From Switzerland. You guys had phenomenal success in Europe. You've come to the U. S. Having phenomenal success in the US Now you moving west out here to California on that team, you're opening things up at the market. >> It's been a chance, Mikey. Things can presented themselves step by step, and I jumped on the trains and it's been a good right. >> Awesome. You guys have had great success. We interviewed your CEO a variety of your top people. One of the things that's interesting story is that you guys have been around for a long time. Been there, done that, riding this next next wave of digital transformation. What we call a cloud two point. Oh, but really is about enterprise. Full cloud scale, securing it. You have a lot of organic growth with customers, great word of mouth. So that's not a lot of big marketing budgets, riel. Real success there. You guys now are in the US doing the same thing here. What's been the key to success for open systems wide such good customers? Why the success formula is it you guys are on the right wave. What is it? The product? All the above. What's the What's the secret formula? >> So multiple things I say. And we started as a privately owned company like broad banks to, um, to the Internet email into one back in the nineties. And, um, yeah, we started to grow organically, as he said were by mouth, and Indiana is we put heavy focus on operations, so we wanted to make our customers happy and successful, and, um, yeah, that's how we got there like it was slow organic growth. But we always kind of kept the core and we tried to be unconventional, tried to do things differently than others do. And that's what brought us to where we are today and now capabilities Being here in the Valley, um, opens up a lot of more doors. >> It's got a nice office and we would see I saw the video so props for that. Congratulations. But the real to me, the meat on the bone and story is, is that and I've been really ranting on this whole SD win is changing. SD Win used to be around for a long, long time. It's been known industries known market. It's got a total addressable market, but really, what has really talks to is the the cloud. The cloud is a wide area network. Why do we never used to be locked down? He had the old way permitted based security. Now everything is a wide area. That multi cloud in hybrid club. This is essentially networking. It's a networking paradigms. It's not lately rocket science technically, but the cloud 2.0 shift is about, you know, data. It's about applications, different architectures you have everything kind of coming together, which creates a security problem, an opportunity for new people to come in. That's what you guys? One of them. This is the big wave. What? It explain the new s t win with, you know, the old way and the new way. What is the what? What should people know about the new S D win marketplace? >> Yeah. So let me start. Where do Owen has come from and how digital transformation has impacted that. So typically corporate wider networks were centered around the Clear Data Center where all applications were hosted, storage and everything and all traffic was back holding to the data center. Typically, one single provider that Broady, Mpls links on dhe. It was all good. You had a central location where you could manage it. You had always ability security stack was there. So you had full control. Now new requirements from natural transformation broad as users are on the road, they're on their phones ipads on the in, restaurants in ah, hotels, Starbucks. Wherever we have applications moved to the cloud. So their access directly You wanna have or be as close as possible Unify Communications. I OT It's all things deposed. Different requirements now in the network and the traditional architecture didn't were wasn't able to respond to that. It's just that the links they were filled up. You couldn't invest enough thio blow up your Nampula slings to handle the band with You lost visibility because users were under road. You lost control, and that's where new architectures had to be found. That's where Ston step them and say, Hey, look now we're not centered around the headquarter anymore were sent around where the applications are, your scent around, where the data is, and we need to find means to connected a data as quickly as possible. And so you can use the Internet. Internet has become a commodity. It's become more performance more stable, so we can leverage that we can route traffic according to our policies. We can include the cloud, and that's where Ston actually benefits from the clown. As much as the club benefits from SD went because they go hand in hand and that's also what we really drive to say, Hey, look, now the cloud can be directly brought into your network, no matter where, where data and where applications. >> Yeah, and this is the thing. You know, Although you've been critical of S t when I still see it as the path of the future because it's networking. And the end of the day networking is networking. You moving packets from point A to point B and you're moving somebody story you moving from point A to store the point C. It's hard. And you brought this up about Mpls. It's hard to, like rip and replace You can't just do a wholesale change on the network has the networks are running businesses. So this is where the trick is, in my opinion. So I want to get your thoughts on how companies were dealing with this because, I mean, if you want to move, change something in the network, it takes a huge task. How did you guys discover this new opportunity? How did you implement it? What was the and how should customers think about not disrupting their operations at the same time bringing in the new capabilities of this SD win two point? Oh, >> yeah, that's it's a perfect sweet spot, because in the end is, um, nobody starts at a green field. If you could start with a green field. It's easy. You just take on the new technology and you're happy. But, um, customers that we look up large enterprises, they have a brownfield. They haven't existing that work. They have business critical applications running 24 7 And if you look at what options large enterprises have to implement and manage a nasty when is typically three approaches, they either do it themselves, meaning they need a major investment in on boarding people having the talent validating technology and making the project work already. Look at a conventional managers provider. In the end, that is just the same as doing yourself. It's just done by somebody else, and you have the the challenge that those providers typically, um, have a lot of portfolio that they manage. And they do not have enough expertise in Nasty Wen. And so you just end up with the same problems and a lot of service, Janey. So even then you do not get the expertise that you need. >> I think what's interesting about what you guys have done? I want to get your reaction to this is that the manage service piece of it makes it easier to get in without a lot of tinkering with existing infrastructure. Exact. And that's been one of that tail winds for you guys and success wise. Talk about that dynamic of why they managed service is a good approach because you put your toe in the water, so to speak, and you can kind of get involved, get as much as you need to go and go further. Talk about that dynamic and why that's important. >> Yeah, technology Jane is very quickly. So you need people that are able to manage that and open systems as a pure play provider. We build purposely build our platform for us, he went. So we integrated feature sets. We we know how to monitor it, how to configure it, how to manage it. Lifecycle management, technology, risk technology management. All this is purposely purposely built into it, so we strongly believe that to be successful, you need people that are experts in what they do to help you so that you and your I t people can focus in enabling the business. And that's kind of our sweet spot where we don't say we have experts. Our experts operating the network for you as a customer and therefore our experts are your experts. And that's kind of where we believe that a manage service on the right way ends up in Yeah, the best customer. >> And I think the human capital pieces interesting people can level up faster when you when you're not just deploying here. Here's the software load. It is the collaborations important. They're good. They're all right. While you're on this topic, I want to get your thoughts. Since you're an expert, we've been really evaluating this cloud 2.0, for lack of a better description. Cloud 2.0, implying that the cloud 1.0 was Amazon miss on The success of Amazon Web service is really shows Dev Ops in Action Agility The Lean startup Although all that stuff we read reading about for the past 10 plus years great compute storage at scale, amazing use of data like you, said Greenfield. Why not use the cloud? Great. Now all the talk about hybrid cloud even going back to 2013 We were of'em world at that time start 10th year their hybrid cloud was just introduced. Now it's mainstream now multi cloud is around the corner. This teases out cloud 2.0, Enterprise Cloud Enterprise Scale Enterprise Security Cloud Security monitoring 2.0, is observe ability. Got Cooper All these new things air coming on. This is the new clout to point out what is your definition of cloud two point? Oh, if you had to describe it to a customer or a friend, >> it is really ah, some of hybrid cloud or multi cloud, as you want to name it, because in the end, probably nobody can say I just select one cloud, and that's going to make me successful because in the end, cloud is it's not everywhere, as we kind of used to believe in the beginning, but in the end, it's somebody else's computer in a somebody else's data center. So the cloud is you selectively pick the location where you want to for your cloud instances and asked if Cloud Service providers opened up more locations that are closer to your users in the or data you actually can leverage more possibilities. So what we see emerging now is that while for a long time everything has moved to the cloud, the cloud is again coming back to us at the sietch. So a lot of compute stuff is done close to where data is generated. Um, it's where the users are. I mean, Data's generated with with us. Yeah, phones and touch and feel and vision and everything. So we can leverage these technologies to really compute closer to the data. But everything controlled out of central cloud instances. >> So this brings up a good point. You essentially kind of agreeing with cloud one detto being moved to the cloud. But now you mentioned something that's really interesting around cloud to point out, which is moving having cloud, certainly public clouds. Great. But now moving technology to the edge edge being a data center edge being, you know, industrial I ot other things wind farms, whatever users running around remotely you mentioned. So the edges now becomes a critical component of this cloud. Two point. Oh, okay. So I gotta ask the question, How does the networking and what's the complexity? And I'm just imagining massive complexity from this. What are some of the complexities and challenges and opportunities will arise out of this new dynamic of club two point. Oh, >> So the traditional approaches does just don't work anymore. So we need new ways to not only on the networking side, but obviously also the security side. So we need to make sure that not on Lee the network follows in the footsteps of the business of what it needs. But actually, the network can drive business innovation and that the network is ready to handle those new leaps and technologies. And that's what we see is kind of being able to tightly integrate whatever pops up, being able to quickly connect to a sass provider, quickly integrate a new cloud location into your network and have the strong security posture there. Directly integrated is what you need because if you always have to think about weight, if I add this, it's gonna break something else, and I have to. To change is here. Then you lose all the speed that your business needs. >> I mean, the ripple effect of it's like throwing a stone in the lake and seeing the ripple effect with cloud to point. You mentioned a few of them. Network and Security won't get to that in a second, but doesn't change every aspect of computing categories. Backup monitoring. I mean all the sectors that were traditional siloed on premise that moves with the cloud are now being disrupted again for the third time. Yeah, you agree with that? >> It's true. And I mean your club 0.1 point. Oh, you say a lot of things will be seen his lift and shift and that still works like there is a lot of work loads where it's not worth it to re factor everything. But then, for your core applications, the business where the business makes money, you want a leverage, the latest instead of technologies to really drive, drive your business there. >> I got to get your take on this because you're the head of architecture solutions at Open Systems. Um, is a marketing tagline that I saw that you guys promote, which I live. I want to get your thoughts on. It says, Stop treating your network like a network little marketing. I love it, but it's kind of like stop trying your network like a network implying that the networks changing may be inadequate. Antiquated needs to modernize. I'm kind of feeling the vibe there on that. What do you mean by that? Slow Stop treating your network like a network. What's what's the purpose >> behind that? But yeah, in the end, it to be a little flaw provoking. But I mean, even est even in its pure forms, where you have a softer controller that steers your traffic along different path. Already. For me, as an engineer, I'm gonna lose my mind because I want to know where routing is going. I want deterministic. Lee defined my policy, so I always have things under control. But now it's a softer agent that takes care. Furred takes care of it for me so that already I lose control in favor off. Yeah, more capabilities. And I think that's cloud just kind of accelerate. >> So you guys really put security kind of in between the network and application? Is that the way you're thinking about it? It used to be Network was at the bottom. You built the application, had security. Now you're thinking differently. Explain that the the architectural thinking around this because this is a modern approach you guys were taking, and I want to get this on the record. Applications have serving users and machines network delivers packets, and then you're saying security's wrapping up between them explain. >> So when we go back again to the traditional model Central Data Center, you had a security stack full rack of appliances that the care of your security was easy to manage. Now, if you wanna go ask you when connect every brand side to the Internet, you cannot replicate such an infrastructure to every branch. Location just doesn't skill. So what do you do? Why do you say I cannot benefit of this where I use new methods? And that's where we say we integrate security directly into our networking stack. So to be able to not rely on the service training but have everything compiled into one platform and be able to leverage that data is passing through our network. You've eyes. But then why not apply the same security functions that we used to do in our headquarter directly at the edge and therefore every branch benefits of the same security posture that I typically were traditionally only had in my data center? >> You guys so but also weighing as a strategic infrastructure critical infrastructure opponent. I would agree with that. That's obvious, but as we get into hybrid cloud and multi cloud infrastructures of service support. Seamless integration is critical. This has become a topic, will certainly be talking about for the rest of the year Of'em world and reinvented other conferences like Marcel that night as well. This is the big challenge for customers. Do I invest in Azure A. W as Google in another cloud? Who knows how many clouds coming be another cloud potentially around the corner? I don't want to fork my development team. I want to do one of the great different code bases. This has become kind of like the challenge. How do you see this playing out? Because again, the applications want to run on the best cloud possible. I'm a big believer in that. I think that the cloud should dictate the AP should dictate which cloud runs. That's why I'm a believer in the single cloud for the workload, not a single cloud for all workloads. So your thoughts, >> I think, from an application point of view. As you say, the application guys have to determine more cloud is best for them, I think from a networking point of view, as a network architect, we need to we can't work against this but enable them and be able to find ways that the network can seamlessly connect to whatever cloud the business wants to use. And there's plenty of opportunity to do that today and to integrate or partner with other providers that actually have partnered with dozens of cloud providers. And as we now can architect, we have solutions to directly bring you as a customer within milliseconds, to each cloud, premise is a huge advantage. It takes a few clicks in a portal. You have a new clouds instance up and running, and now you're connected. And the good thing is, we have different ways to do that. Either. We spin up our virtual instance virtual esti one appliance in cloud environments so we can leverage the Internet to go. They're still all secured, all encrypted, ordering me again. Use different cloud connect interconnections to access the clouds. Depending on the business requirements, >> you guys have been very successful. A lot of comfort from financial service is the U. N. With NGOs, variety of industries. So I want to get your thoughts on this. I've been we've been covering the Department of Defense is joining and Chet I joint and the presentation of defense initiative where the debate was soul single purpose Cloud. Now the reality is and we've covered this on silicon angle that D O D is going multi cloud as an organization because they're gonna have Microsoft Cloud for collaboration and other contracts. They're gonna win $8,000,000,000. So that a Friday cloud opportunities, but for the particular workload for the military, they have unique requirements. Their workload has chosen one cloud. That was the controversy. Want to get your thoughts on this? Should the workloads dictate the cloud? And is that okay? And certainly multi cloud is preferred Narada instances. But is it okay to have a single cloud for a workload? >> Yeah, again, from if the business is okay with that, that's fine from our side of you. We see a lot of lot of business that have global presence, so they're spread across the globe. So for them, it's beneficial to done distribute workloads again across different regions, and it could still be the same provider, but across different regions. And then already, question is How do you now we're out traffic between those workloads? Do we? Do you love right? Your esteem and infrastructure or do you actually use, for example, the backbone that the cloud provider provides you in case of Microsoft? They guarantee you the traffic between regions stay in their backbone. So gifts, asshole, new opportunities to leverage large providers. Backbone. >> And this is an interesting nuance point because multi cloud doesn't have to be. That's workload. Spreading the workload across three different clouds. It's this workload works on saving Amazon. This workload works on Azure. This workload works on another cloud that's multi cloud from a reality standpoint today, so that implies that most every country will be multi cloud for sure. But workloads might have a single cloud for either the routing and the transit security with the data stored. And that's okay, too. >> Yeah, yeah, and keep in mind, Cloud is not only infrastructure or platform is the service. It's also software as a service. So as soon as we have sales forests, work day office 3 65 dropbox or box, then we are multiplied. >> So basically the clouds are fighting it out by the applications that they support and the infrastructure behind. Exactly. All right, well, what's next for you? You're on the road. You guys doing a lot of customer activity. What's the coolest thing that you're seeing in the customer base from open system standpoint that you like to share with the audience? >> Um, so again, it's just cool to see that customers realized that there's plenty of opportunities. And just to see how we go through that evolution with our customers, were they initially or little concerned? But then eventually we see that actually, the network change drives new business project and customers air happy that they launched or collaborate with us. That's what that's what makes me happy and makes me and a continuing down that path >> and securing it is a key. Yeah, he wins in this market Having security? >> Absolutely. Yeah, Sylvia saying mind and not wake up at 2 a.m. Full sweat, because here >> we'll manage. Service is a preferred for my people like to consume and procure product in So congratulations and congressional on your Silicon Valley office looking for chatting more. I'm John for here in the keep studios for cute conversation. Thanks for watching

(upbeat music) >> From our studios, in the heart of Silicon Valley, Palo Alto, California, this is a CUBE conversation. >> Hello everyone, welcome to this CUBE conversation here in the Palo Alto CUBE Studios. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. We here have Dave Nuti, who is the Head of Channels for Open Systems. Open Systems just recently launched their partner network in 2019. Dave, welcome to theCUBE conversation. >> Thank you John, good to be here. >> So, security obviously is the hottest area we've been covering it like a blanket these days. It's only getting better and stronger in terms of number of players and options for customers. But that's also a double-edged sword. There's more options, more for customers. And security problems aren't going away. They're just getting more compounded. It's complicated global marketplace, global scale, regional clouds on-premise, no surface area. We've had these conversations with you guys a lot and it's super important, but opportunity to deliver solutions with channel partners has become a huge thing at Amazon re:Inforce, we had a big conversation what that even looks like. It's a new market opportunity for security players. You guys are forging there. Tell us about your partner's channel, just launched, give us a quick overview. >> Yeah I have a growing smile as you talk about the complexity of the space and how difficult it can be because we're the ones that eliminate that complexity, make it very simple. And for our partners that we've been engaging with, I joined the company just over a year ago and we began laying the groundwork of transitioning from a direct sales model to a partner only model and you fast forward to where we are today, we've already made that 180 degree turn and are working exclusively through partners throughout North America and executing around the world in that way. What's exciting for the partners is that they have a new supplier in the portfolio in the form of Open Systems that while it is a new name to them, is anything but new in experience and execution. It might arguably be one of the more seasoned suppliers in their entire portfolio they have today and it is opening doors and breaking down barriers to entry in a number of security categories that for years they've been on the outside looking in trying to figure out, how can I participate in these areas and how can I really unify a conversation around value for my customers that I am the trusted advisor to? And those are the exciting networks of hundreds and thousands of trusted advisors out there that we're engaging with today. >> You know, the security space is interesting. It's changing a lot, it's not just the one supplier, multiple suppliers, there are now hundreds and thousands of suppliers of something, the security market. There's a lot of venture capital being funded for startups, you got customers spending money so there's a lot of spend and activity flow and money flow and huge value creation opportunity. Yet customers are also looking at the cloud technologies as a disruptive enabler of how to deal with new things but also they're looking at their supplier relationships right now, they're evaluating you know, who do I want to do business with, they don't want to get another tool, they don't want to new thing. They don't want to get more and more sprawl. You guys have been Open System and been very successful with word of mouth customer growth. The CEO talked about that in the last interview, it's like you guys have been getting a lot of wins. Classic word of mouth, good product offerings. So you have success on the product side. As you go into the channel and enable the people in front of the customers every day to bring a solution to the table, what's the value proposition to the partners? Because they're fighting to be relevant, they want to be in front of the customers. The customers want their partners as well. So the opportunity for the people in front of your customers for the channel is big. What's the value proposition? >> Well establishing trust with the channel is critical. For years they've had solutions that roll into the portfolio that were written in a conference room a year and a half ago and they're only selling off of PowerPoint slides and now you're coming in with Open Systems and you have 20 years of experience accumulated, maturity and automation into a platform that they rarely see that type of door opened up for them. So when they lean in and they really start asking questions about Open Systems, we really check off boxes in a fantastic way for our partners. You talk about vendor sprawl and complexity and it all boils back, you're exactly correct, to the embracing of the cloud and that diversity of application origin, the diversity of the users trying to access those corporate resources, wherever they happen to be hosted and how do I unify a strategy and it's resulted in what is not uncommon having to engage 30, 40, 50, different vendors and then trying to unify that environment, let alone the problem that you can't hire the people to go and do it anyway. There's a negative unemployment issue in IT security categories today. So you know, there's a very, very fortune few that have the ability, the bench, the depth, the resource to do that and then an even fewer number of people who can lead an enterprise down that path and then you turn the corner and where usually there's this tug of war between agility and security. If I'm really agile, it means I'm compromising security. Or if I'm super secure, I'm going to be as slow as a sloth in doing anything. And then you have Open Systems sitting in the middle who says, that's not necessarily the case. You can have world class deployment in an agile platform where all that complexity and service chaining unification is handled for you and that really, that is mind boggling and I'll tell you, it's a whole lot of fun to demonstrate it. >> You know, Dave, we talked a lot of customers and user customers through our media business, CIOs, and now CISOs and they're all kind of working together. They have partners, they have partners they've worked with for many, many years from the old days of buying servers and rack and stacking 'em to software to applications but now the touch points for services are those traditional suppliers, application developers, but security's being bolted in everywhere, so almost all services need security, that's essentially what the main message with cloud is. So that gives the service opportunities for you guys but partners to enable you guys in there. As a partner, if I'm a partner of Open Systems, what do I get? 'Cause I want to make my, I want to keep my customer. I want to deliver security. What do I talk to my customer, what's the pitch that I can give as a partner to customer to ensure that they're going to get what they need from Open Systems? >> What I tell our partners is that we should be the services conversation that you lead with. There are a lot of other options out there and even if you don't mention it by name, if you approach the conversation in an open way with a customer with the mindfulness of the wide net of capabilities and value that you're able to execute on with Open Systems, it gives you your strongest footing. One of the big problems and you mentioned it, is that so often for years these technology conversations have been siloed and isolated and that always creates problems. I talked to a partner who works their way downstream on an SD-WAN conversation and at the very end they say, "This looks great, we just have "to get it passed by our security team." And the wind falls out of everybody's sails because that should've been part of the conversation all along or vice versa, starting from a security conversation and now I've got to get the network team to sign off on it. Open Systems really comes with a model that says all those viewpoints need to be in the room at the same time. That's how you execute and that's how you unify an environment so that you're not running into those bottlenecks later on. It's just madness, it needs to be simpler. >> We were talking before we came on camera about what it means to be disruptive and valuable to partners and to customers and you mentioned convergence of capabilities and manage services. What do you mean by that? I get convergence of services, we talk about that all the time from industrial IoT, we've been doing some segments on that to manage services, people get what that means. What do you mean by convergence of services and and manage services with respect to security and Open Systems? >> Absolutely. I mean convergences, we all carry one in our pocket so how many people carry a separate GPS device with a separate digital camera with a separate phone and a separate- Converging technologies just simplifies my environment and often times is a viewpoint of I'm compromising in certain areas that if I break everything out myself I can probably do it better off myself. And in some cases that's absolutely true. When you look at how Open Systems has taken a very diverse set of services and network and security categories and unified it into a single platform, we've taken, if you will, we've taken that stack of boxes and turned it into one by building a main services platform that's delivered as a service but what we've layered on top of it is the ability to manage it for our customers and I talk about modern managed services. It's very different. Before maintainence services was, I'm just too incapable to do something myself so I need somebody else to do it. When I talk to a partner, I like pointing out that I don't try to find somebody too dumb to do the things we do and they have to rely upon us. No, our best customers are very forward-leaning 'cause they realize that the automation that we've accumulated over 20 years that we're 85 to 90% of our detected incidents are handled by AI automation and Machine Learning and that type of monitoring automation that we have at the edge and the engine and the team of 115 level three plus engineers that are executing on our customer's behalf is we're force multiplier for our end customers to an ability that they will never achieve on their own, they'll never build that on their own. Those are the two, I think two of the biggest pillars in disruption are convergence and managed services and they are two enormous check boxes for Open Systems where it's hard to find someone more experienced in that than the team at Open Systems. >> And those are realities that the customers are dealing with but also the other reality on top of that to make it even more complicated and better for you guys and partners is you have more surface area to deal with. So the AI and the automation really play into the hands of, on the delivery side, so if I'm a partner, I'm standing up Open Systems, it's working. >> So you can't just develop that in a conference room. That's something that's accumulated over time, that's what comes with experience. And I usually really lean heavily into our maturity and our experience. We're in 183 countries with customers today. We have a 98% retention rate, a 58 NPS score. When I show the monitoring portals, the visibility tools, the maturity, and what has been developed isn't just Open Systems, you know, stubbornly telling the world what they need and should be doing. It's actually a very aggressive two way conversation with our existing customers and their guidance telling us, this is what we want, what we need to see, what we need to be able to pull and what we need your help in enforcing. I met with a customer in Pacific Northwest and he dropped a line on me that was terrific. He said, "I'm looking for a partner "that can tell us the questions we should be asking "that we haven't and the technologies "we should be evaluating that we haven't looked at yet." And I told him I was going to steal that line and I'm using it here today. Because that is an absolutely brilliant description of exactly the type of customer experience that we expect to deliver from Open Systems to our customers. >> So if I'm rep, I'm a person who's got a portfolio of customers and I want to bring Open Systems to the table, take me through that. I mean, am I asking the questions, what are some of those questions I should be asking, what's my engagement posture look like to my customer? >> That's a great question. I've been to a number of events and sat through kind of advanced training seminars and at the beginning of a seminar, you have somebody on stage saying, talk about security categories. If you talk about security, then you have a pathway to sell anything else on there. And then at the end of the event, all the SD-WAN guys were sitting on the stage saying, "Talk about SD-WAN, it's the glue "that holds everything together and if you can sell SD-WAN, "it'll give you pathway to everything else." And meanwhile I'm in the back of the room smiling just wondering, what if you didn't have to pick? What if you could just have a wide open conversation with your customer around application origins and remote users and how you're unifying security and application performance and routing intelligence for any application origin to any type of user trying to access it, how are you addressing that? And that's really at the core of what Open Systems has developed for its clients is that type of agility and flexibility where you're never trapped and opening up considerations around new and emerging threats and capabilities that you should be looking at where if it's not the time for you today, we've still already designed it in for you, so when you're ready it's there for you. >> Now the real question on the rep's mind, while he's asking those basic questions. How do I make money from this? Which is essentially, money making certainly is a great channel formula. It's indirect sales for you guys but also you have to have a couple table stakes. One, it's got to be a product that can be sold. The delivery has to be elegant enough where there's margin for the partner. And benefit the customer. So the money making is certainly the big part of not only trust as the supplier to the channel, but also as an engine of innovation and wealth creation. What's your pitch there, how am I making money? >> Well as a managed services model, that's always the beauty is you get to configure to the requirement of the individual customer so no one's force fed capability they don't need or an over subscription for what they might need in a year so just in case they want to, we're able to right size and deliver the capability that's specifically configured to the individual customer level but then also show them that they have a pathway to capability laid out for them and integrated and modern, we never go end of life, we never get shelved, this is something that is living, breathing, you're never buying boxes, again and service chaining and handling the complexity so we make that very simple for our partners in categories around security and SOC and manage services, and SIM, and CASB, these are things that they hear about but they don't know how to address them with their customers. And now Open Systems makes that very simple because we fully integrated the capabilities around those categories and many more into the same service-- >> So one of the psychology, I was just reading from that as a rep, if I was a rep I would be like, oh, I don't have to overplay my hand. I can get an engagement with my customer, they can get a feel for the service, grow into it because it's a managed service and go from there, it's not a big ask. >> Right. >> It's instant alignment. >> Yeah, often times what we do is a timing issue. Somebody just bought boxes in one category so fine, we'll coexist with that. We sit in parallel and in framework with current investments and subscriptions that happen to be in place but we give them a pathway that allows them to integrate it into fully unified and I like to really point this out is that, we don't go to a customer and say, "What do you need? "We'll build it for you." It's, what do you need? We've already built it, we just want to know how we configure it for you to match up to what your requirements are and maybe suggest some areas that should be a part of that consideration as well based upon 20 plus years of doing this with customers that we already have under our belt. >> Yeah, it gives them confidence that the operating model of say cloud, it's been around, it's proven and now you have a model there. Final question for you Dave is okay, my fear might be, are you going to be around tomorrow 'cause people want to know, are you going to be there for the long haul? What's your answer to that? >> We're a 30 year old security company founded out of Zurich and started in 1990 and transitioned as a service in 1999 and have grown on the backs, we're customer funded. So this is as battle-tested and bulletproof as anything that they may have in their portfolio and it shows extremely well in front of a customer. I spend more time talking to partners saying be the first one in the door to talk about Open Systems with your customer, don't let somebody else do it. Or certainly use the mindfulness of the net of capabilities of Open Systems and don't go in narrow-viewed because if somebody comes in behind you with our conversation, I don't think you're going to like what happens. >> One more question just jumped in my head, you reminded me of, we were talking before we came on camera around how channels are great leverage, great win-win, but we're in a modern area of computing, delivery of services, cloud has certainly shown that, whole nother wave coming behind it, security obviously the biggest challenge. You've been in the channel business for awhile, what's your take on what's happening in the channel business because it is changing, there's opportunities there, what's your take? >> Yeah, this is the second company I've had the opportunity to introduce into the channel and this one is a lot of fun, I'll say that. But the channel's traditionally thought of in more of a telecom space and for many of our partners, that's where they've been literally for decades in some cases is selling technology but is selling connectivity rather, networks, but what has happened is that technology has found its way into the network layer and because of cloud and SaaS app origins and remote users from coffee shops or theCUBE or our customer site accessing those applications, it's created a massive set of diversity in requirements on the IT team at the enterprise and how do you accommodate for all that? How do you keep up with it and maintain it? And now these things transition from these Capex buying boxes and maintenance agreements and rotating those out and that model is constantly being assaulted in the same way that we've seen so many services that we have come to our house. Nobody digs a well for water anymore, I've got a water company. Or makes their own electric power plant in the backyard, I've got the electric company. >> Everything's as a service. >> Absolutely. >> Dave Nuti, head of channels at Open Systems. Thanks for sharing the insight on your partner congratulations. Thanks for coming in. >> Pleasure, thank you. >> I'm John Furrier here at CUBE conversation in Palo Alto, thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(upbeat funky music) >> From our studios, in the heart of Silicon Valley, Palo Alto, California. This is a CUBE conversation. >> Okay, welcome back everyone, we're here at theCUBE studios in Palo Alto for a special CUBE conversation. Talking security, talking about the internet and cloud computing. Martin Bosshardt is the CEO of Open Systems. Martin, great to see you. Last time we chatted was in December you were in Vegas, we had a little on the ground, great to meet your team. Welcome back to theCUBE. >> Thank you so much. It's great to be here. >> So exciting things going on, I want to get a state of the Open Systems and the industry, obviously security's a really big big thing, a lot stuff going on in the industry. Black Hat. Defcon. Amazon had a big event called re:Inforce, which was really kind of the first cloud securities show. Which brings the whole, your kind of value proposition to the table but, you guys have a new office here in Silicon Valley. I saw a video on the internet, trending. >> Yeah. >> Pretty nice place work. Give us the update on the current office and Silicon Valley presence. >> Yeah we are, you know, we are really happy to be now here in the U.S. headquarters in Redwood City and Silicon Valley. So, this really helps us also to be closer to the talents, to be closer to all the going to market activities and also to understand the market better. So, it's really exciting to be here and obviously also our, I mean the people love to work here in Silicon Valley. Weather is always great. >> Yeah, weathers always great and the office has got that good working vibe there. Take a minute to explain Open Systems real quick for the folks not familiar with the video 'cause we did last December in Vegas with your team. Tell them what your companies value propositions is and some of the growth you're experiencing. >> Right, so, Open Systems really is, you know, we operate SD-WAN in a secure way for our customer, so it's really focusing on making a relatively complicated technology, from operational point of view, very easy to consume for our customers. So this is, I think, something we started more than 15 years ago in Europe and I would say Open Systems is very much comparable, or at least the going to market part, is very much comparable to an organic farms. We have a wonderful ecosystems in Switzerland, especially in the financial services industry and our customers just love the way we provided those services and told their neighbors and friends and this is really how we grew on a global scale. Currently Open Systems is operating in more than 180 countries, SD-WAN and security infrastructure for customers and protect approximately 2.5 to three million in users globally. And when we started to enter the U.S. market, we learned that the way we provide SD-WAN in a secure way, really resonates a lot with the U.S. market because we can make complex infrastructures, especially projects going to the cloud, very easy to consume for our customers. So, we are really exciting on the growth side right now, we grow super fast in the U.S., we have been very successful in latest customers, we won Chemers, we won Chemit... >> So you're winning a lot of business. >> We are winning a lot of business and what's exciting about it is those customers give us really very valuable feedback on the difference how we provided services is really exciting... >> You know Martin, I was observing and talking to your team in December when we first met you guys for the first time and you just briefly touched on it on your description of the company success. A lot of the early success and continued success has been word of mouth. >> Right. >> With the organic, not like big marketing splash in the pool, kind of like, you know, banging the drum hard, although you are doing some marketing now but and being in the U.S. That word of mouth has been really a testament to the quality of the product, so I got to ask you, what are they happy about? What's the problem that you're solving? What's the big buzz? Why are they so excited to share, to their peers and colleagues about Open Systems? What's the big revelation? >> Thank you for the credit. I think, you know, everybody goes to the cloud and what you really need is an SD-WAN to access the cloud. What that also means for all those companies, they have to rethink their security posture. So if you add now all those products and then you try to operate those products, it turns out it's relatively complicated compared to an old school MPLS Network we used to operate in the past. So, this is really where Open Systems comes in and helps customers to operate that in very easy ways. So we integrate, all those products needed, to operate the global SD-WAN in a secure way, on a single delivery platform and that allows customers to consume that entire suite in a very very easy way. >> I want to get your vision on the future of Open Systems. I know you guys call it secure SD-WAN. I'm a little bit more radical and controversial in the sense. I think SD-WAN is kind of passe term, I think, it's really cloud connectivity work anywhere, people are working at home more than ever, cloud computing has brought in essentially enterprise cloud. We're calling it cloud 2.0, where, it's not just public cloud and having workloads in there, taking advantage of the greatest of cloud 1.0. It's enterprises, this is hybrid, it's multi-cloud, you seeing a, really a distributed computing, a networking problem and a security problem being at the center of this new work environment. >> Yeah. >> Essentially, people connected to something. >> Right. >> It's cloud right, I mean. We can call it SD-WAN because it used to be an office, campus, remote office, very static dynamic. What's your vision? >> You're absolutely right. I mean, this is really where it all goes. Let's say, a network was a network and it was very clear what a network does, right now it's more like, we want to just connect users to cloud services and it's not so clear where those services are coming from and it's not so clear where those users are sitting, where you consume from. And, it results in a phenomenal opportunity to be much more agile, much more, much faster, also to set-up new services, but it also is a challenge for IT operations. Because you know, you might have a group of users saying, well this and this service doesn't work well and now you have to debug. Why is not performing, why isn't Germany maybe, a service coming from the U.S., not performing well? Or you have an IoT device suddenly not really collecting data in a right way and this is really where SD-WAN becomes an orchestration layer. SD-WAN really helps you to orchestrate all those services and make sure you have the SLA available, at all times, everywhere. And also, understand if it's not delivering right and this is really rare where I believe... Ya, we need new solutions to make these easy because... >> You know, a lot of companies talk about digital transformation, that becomes the office, you know, the top CEO, board conversation, let's transform and be digital. But the underlying infrastructure, which is very complex, you can talk about distributing computing, you got networking, all these things in place and old, new, all kind of mashed together with cloud. It's easy to say digital transformation but you're talking about digital transformation of the business on top of existing complex hardware, which comes out the networking, moving packets from A to B, storing it on drives and now you have people working at home, so you have people working globally. >> Right. >> It's not that simple. >> No. >> It's complicated. >> It is really... >> It's not just a U.S. problem, it's like a have a team in, an engineering team in the U.K. and Germany, wherever, business... So it's a global problem. >> Exactly and also it's about, you know, how do you process all the data in an efficient way. And where we see a lot of iteration power released is right now in the Cloud. It's really exciting how easy it gets to consume all that computing power out of the cloud but you need to make sure it is available and you need to understand what is happening if it's not available and how to fix that. And this is really where, I think networking became more demanding, more challenging but also, obviously offers a tremendous opportunity for innovation. >> And I think the security industry has gotten much broader scope to it, used to be, hey you know, I'm a nerd, I'm Black Hat, I'm a blue team, red team, secure the environment, get a perimeter and okay that's gone, we'll take care of threats, malware, all this stuff's going on. But when you think about like cloud 2.0, cloud 1.0 is compute storage, great applications can load up at the cloud, all this great stuffs happening, hooray, yeah, rah-rah. Now cloud 2.0 is networking and security. >> Right. >> Independent of everything right so, what's your take on that? How is Open Systems, you know, helping companies? And what do you say to your customers when you say, hey, you know, compute networking, the storage is good, the cloud on premise no problem, there's operating models for that but you got networking and you got security to deal with on top of all the complexity. What's your story? >> I think the most important thing is, you know, we have to live with the fact that some device system tools are not secure. So I think IoT's a very good example. If you want to have all those sensors out there and be close to the customer, be close to some business processes, you need IoT. But, it's just not possible to have these very cheap devices built in a secure way. So, it's a lot about how do you design a network, to design it in a resilient secure way and that means that you have to think in cells, you have to think in compartments and that makes it relatively easy, secure again, but, it is from operational point of view, quite a challenge because you do not operate any more one network, you suddenly operate maybe any networks. >> On that point, just to kind of wrap up here. The the security challenges around IoT, Machine Learning and AI, which is clearly becoming part of the fabric of, a company's going to leverage that... >> Right. What are some of the big challenges that companies are having and what do you do to solve it? >> You know, in the old network world, you had a network where everything was connected based on one network. So, when you introduce SD-WAN and you introduce all these capabilities, it is very dangerous if you think just, in the old school of one network because suddenly you have IoT working on the same network as maybe your finance department. Or you have productivity facilities working the same network as your network department. So, it just doesn't make sense to have those very different functionalities on exactly the same network because if you have a compromised situation, you suddenly have your entire company compromised and this is really where compartments become very very important. I think this also something you in every industry, historically as well. Security and safety starts also with compartments. So, if you think fire, fire security, it has a lot to do with fire compartments. In case you have a fire, you don't lose the entire building or the same goes with ship building. I mean, Titanic was the last very big ship that sunk but the reason was the compartments haven't been pressurized. A modern ship doesn't sink anymore. And I think this really what we have to do now also in IT. We have to think in compartments. We have to think in layers and that's easy to do with SD-WAN but it's not so easy to operate. >> Final question for you real quick, you know, people talk about hybrid cloud, multi-clouds, the big conversation in this cloud 2.0. But you guys as being successful in outside the United States and now in the U.S., there's also multi-geo work environment. >> Right. What should people think about when they kind of want to frame that debate or conversation? I'm a multinational, I'm operating in the U.S., now I have regions, clouds have regions. There's also all kind of of now regulatory pressure coming across those areas. >> I would say around 2,000 companies really started to globalize their value chains. You know, in the past, maybe you had a production facility in one country and then you sold your products globally but if you want to be competitive, you have to globalize your value chain. So it doesn't make sense to produce everything in one place. Your product usually, or your service, is produced on a global scale and that means that networks also have to help you to really produce that global value chain. But, it means also that you are operating in different jurisdictions, in different regions and you have to respect those different regulations and laws. And this is, obviously then and also a challenge for network operators because privacy in Germany is different than in the U.S., access rights are different, China's again very different, but all those multinationals, we operate in all those countries and we have to respect the local law. >> And the provide the security they need. >> Exactly. >> Martin, thanks for coming in and sharing your insights. Appreciate, good to see you, we'll follow up with and keep of the progress. Thanks for coming in. >> Thank so much. >> I'm John Furrier for CUBE Conversation in Palo Alto, at theCUBE Studios, thanks for watching. (upbeat funky music)

>> from our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley, Palo Alto, California. It is a cute conversation. >> Everyone. Welcome to this Special Cube conversation here at the Palo Alto Cube Studios. I'm John for a host of Cuba here. Moritz man is the head of the product management team at Open Systems A G. Great to see you again. Thanks for coming in. >> Hey, John. Thanks for having me. >> So last time we spoke, you had your event in Las Vegas. You guys are launching. You have a new headquarters here in Silicon Valley. Opened up this past spring. Congratulations. Thank you. >> Yeah, it's a great, great venue to start, and we set foot on the Silicon Valley ground. So to make our way to >> I know you've been super busy with the new building and rolling out, expanding heavily here in the Valley. But you guys were in the hottest area that we're covering Security Cloud security on premise, security. The combination of both has been the number one conversation pretty much in the cloud world right now. Honestly, besides a normal cloud, native cloud I t hybrid versus multi cloud out. See, that continues to be the discussion I think there's no more debate around multi cloud in hybrid public clouds. Great people gonna still keep their enterprises. But the security equation still is changing this new requirements. What's the latest that you guys are seeing with respect to security? >> Yeah. So, John, what we see is actually that cloud adoption had happens at different speeds. So you have usually the infrastructure of the service. Adoption would happens in a quite controlled way because there's a lift in shift. Do you have your old data center? You you take it and you transferred into azure I W S O G C P. But then there's also uncontrolled at option, which is in the SAS space. And I think this is where a lot off data risk occur, especially the wake off GDP are on where we see that this adoption happens. Maurin a sometimes control, but sometimes in a very uncontrolled way, >> explain that the uncontrolled and controlled expansion of of how security and multi cloud and cloud is going because this interesting control means this this plan's to do stuff uncontrolled means it's just by other forces explain uncontrolled versus controls >> eso controlled specifically means the IittIe team takes as a project plan and aches servers and workloads and moves them in a controlled fashion or in a dedicated project to the cloud. But what happened in the business world of business I t is actually did use those share content at any time with any device at any at any time and in all locations. So this is called the Mobile Enterprise on the Cloud First Enterprise. So it means that the classical security perimeter and the controls in that are my past, actually, by the path of least resistance or the shortest path >> available. And this is the classic case. People use Dropbox with some, you know, personal things. They're at home, they're at work, a p I based software. That's what you're getting at the >> and the issue of this is that that the data that has bean, like contained an pera meters where, you know, as it Caesar, where your data is. This has bean deployed too many edge devices, too many mobile devices, and it's get it gets shared, a nun controlled way. >> We'll get a couple talk tracks would like to drill down on that, because I think this is the trend. We're seeing a pea eye's dominant. The perimeter on the infrastructure has gone away. It's only getting bigger and larger. You got I, O. T and T Edge just and the networks are controlled and also owned by different people. So the packets of moving on it that's crazy so that that's the reality. First, talk track is the security challenge. What is the security challenge? How does a customer figure out what to do from an architectural standpoint when they're dealing with hybrid and multi cloud? So first of >> all, um, customers or BC enterprises try need to re think their infrastructure infrastructure centric view off the architecture's. So the architecture that had been built around data send us needs to become hybrid and multi cloud aware. So that means they need to define a new way off a perimeter, which is in cloud but also in the covering. Still the old, so to say, legacy hyper data center set up, which has the data still in the old data center and at the same time, they need to open up and become the cloud themselves, so to say, and but still draw a perimeter around their data and they users and not and their applications and not so much anymore around the physical infrastructure. >> So taking, changing their view of what a security product is, Is that really what you're getting at? >> Yeah, So the issues with the product point solution was that they fixed a certain part off off a tactile issue. So if you take a firewall in itself, firewall back then it was like a entry door to a big building, and you could could decide who comes out goes in. Now. If the the kind of the walls of the building are vanishing or arm or more FIC, you need to come over the more integrated concept. So having these stacked appliance and stacked security solutions trying to work together and chain them doesn't work anymore. So we think and we see that, >> Why is that? Why doesn't it work? Because in >> the end, it's it's it's hardly two to operate them. Each of those points solutions have their own end off life. They have their own life cycle. They have their own AP eyes. They have their own TCO, as all that needs to be covered. And then there's the human aspect where you have the knowledge pools around >> those technologies. So as an enterprise you have to content to continuously keep the very scar security experts to maintain content continues the depreciating assets running right, >> and they're also in it. We weren't built for tying into a holistic kind of platform. >> Yeah, What we see is that that enterprises now realize we have data centers and it's not accepted reality that you can abstracted with the cloud. So you have You don't own your own servers and buildings anymore. So you have a PAX model to subscribe to Cloud Service is and we think that this has to happen to security to so shift from cap ex to our pecs and the same way also for operational matters >> securities. The service is a crepe is a small I want to ask you on that front you mentioned mobile users. How do you secure the mobile uses when they use cloud collaboration? Because this is really what uses expect, and they want How do you secure it? >> So be secured by by actually monitoring the data where it actually gravitates, and this is usually in the cloud. So we enforce the data that is in transit through, ah, proxies and gators towards the cloud from the endpoint devices, but also then looking by AP eyes in the cloud themselves to look for threats, data leakage and also sandbox. Certain activities that happened. There >> are the next talk talk I want to get into is the expansion to hybrid and multi cloud so that you guys do from a product standpoint, solution for your customers. But in general, this is in the industry conversation as well. How how do you look at this from a software standpoint? Because, you know, we've heard Pat Gelsinger of'em were talking about somewhere to find Data Center S d n. Everything's now software based. You talk about the premiere goes away. You guys were kind of bring up a different approaches. A software perimeter? Yeah, what is the challenge for expanding to multi cloud and hybrid cloud? >> So So the challenge for enterprise and customers we talked to is that they have to run their old business. Gardner once called it by motile business, and it's still adopting not one cloud, but we see in our surveys. And this is also what market research confirms is that customers end up with 2 to 3 loud vendors. So there were will be one or two platforms that will be the primary to their major majority of applications and data gravity. But they will end up and become much more flexible with have running AWS, the old Davis Center. But it was the G, C, P and Azure, or Ali Baba glowed even side by side, right tow cover the different speeds at what their own and the price runs. And >> so I gotta ask you about Cloud Needed was one of the things that you're bringing up that just jumps in my head. And when I got to ask, because this is what I see is a potential challenge. It might be a current challenges when you have kubernetes growing such a rapid rate. You see the level of service is coming online much higher rate. So okay, people, mobile users, they're using the drop boxes, the boxes and using all these FBI service's. But that's just those wraps. As a hundreds and thousands of micro service is being stood up and Tauron down in there, you guys are taking, I think, an approach of putting a perimeter software premieres around these kinds of things, but they get turned on enough. How do you know what's clean? It's all done automatically, so this is becoming a challenge. So is this what you guys mean when you say software perimeter that you guys could just put security around things at any time? Is that explain this? >> Yeah, So? So if you talk about the service match so really mashing cloudy but native functions, I think it's still in the face where it's, I would say, chaos chaotic when you have specific projects that are being ramped up them down. So we draw a perimeter in that specific contact. So let's say you have You're ramping up a lot off cloud a function AWS. We can build a pyramid around this kind off containment and look especially for threats in the activity locks off. The different component is containers, but from from a design perspective, this needs to be, uh, we need to think off the future because if you look at Mike soft on AWS strategy, those containers will eventually move Also back to the edge. Eso were in preparing that to support those models also cover. Bring these functions closer back again to the edge on We call that not any longer the when, ej but it will become a cloud at at actually. So it's not an extension of the land that comes to the data. It's actually the data and the applications coming back to the user and much closer. >> Yeah. I mean, in that case, you could define the on premises environment has an edge, big edge, because this is all about moving, were close and data around. This is what the new normal is. Yeah, So okay, I gotta ask the next question, which is okay, If that's true, that means that kubernetes becomes a critical part of all this. And containers. How do you guys play with that at all? >> So we play with us by by actually looking at data coming from that at the moment. We're looking at this from a from a data transit perspective. We But we will further Maur integrate into their eighties AP eyes and actually become part off the C I C D. Process that building then actually big become a security function in approval and rolling out a cannery to certain service mesh. And we can say, Well, this is safe for this is unsafe This is, I think, the eventual goal to get there. But But for now, it's It's really about tracking the locks of each of those containers and actually having a parent her and segmentation around this service mash cloud. So to say, >> I think you guys got a good thing going on when you talk about this new concept that's of softer to find perimeter. You can almost map that to anything you get. Really think everything has its own little perimeter workload. Could be moving around still in these three secure. So I gotta ask on the next talk Trek is this leads into hybrid cloud. This is the hottest topic. Hybrid cloud to me is the same as multi cloud. Just kind of get together a little bit different. But hybrid cloud means you're operating both on premises and in the cloud. This is becoming a channel most si si SOS Chief admission Security officers. I don't want to fork their teams and have multiple people coding different stacks. They don't want the vendor lock in, and so you're seeing a lot of people pulling back on premises building their own stacks, deploying in the cloud and having a seamless operation. What is your definition of hybrid? Where do you see hybrid going? And how important is it? Have a hybrid strategy. >> So I think the key successfactors of a hybrid strategy is that standards standardization is a big topic. So we think that a service platform that to secure that like the SD when secure service platform rebuilt, needs to be standardized on operational level, but also from a baseline security and detection level. And this means that if you run and create your own work, those on Prem you need to have the same security and standard security and deployment standard for the clout and have the seamless security primary perimeter and level off security no matter where these these deployments are. And the second factor of this is actually how do you ensure a secure data transfer between those different workloads? And this is where S T win comes into play, which acts as a fabric together with when backbone, where we connect all those pieces together in a secure fashion >> where it's great to have you on the Q and sharing your insight on the industry. Let's get into your company. Open systems. You guys provide an integrated solution for Dev Ops and Secure Service and Security Platform. Take a minute to talk about the innovations that you guys were doing because you guys talk a lot about Casby. Talk a lot about integrated esti when but first define what Casby is for. The audience doesn't know what Casby is. C. A S B. It's kicked around all of the security conscious of your new to security. It's an acronym that you should pay attention to so defined casby and talk about your solution. >> Eso casby isn't theory. Aviation means cloud access security we broker. So it's actually becoming this centralized orchestrator that that allows and defines access based on a trust level. So saying, um, first of all, it's between networks saying I have a mobile workforce accessing SAS or I s applications. Can't be it in the middle to provide security and visibility about Where's my data moving? Where's married? Where do I have exposure off off GDP, our compliance or P C. I or he power risks And where is it exposed to, Which is a big deal on it's kind of the lowest level to start with, But then it goes further by. You can use the Casby to actually pull in data that that is about I s were close to toe identified data that's being addressed and stored. So are there any incidentally, a shared data artifacts that are actually critical to the business? And are they shared with extra resource is and then going one step further, where we then have a complete zero trust access model where we say we know exactly who can talkto which application at any time on give access to. But as everything this needs to be is in embedded in an evolution >> and the benefit ultimately goes to the SAS applications toe, have security built in. >> That's the first thing that you need to tackle. Nowadays, it's get your sass, cloud security or policy enforced on, but without disrupting service on business on to actually empower business and not to block and keep out the business >> can make us the classic application developer challenge, which is? They love to co they love the build applications, and what cloud did with Dev Ops was abstracted away the infrastructure so that they didn't have to do all this configuration. Sister. Right? APs You guys air enabling that for security? >> Exactly. Yeah. So coming back to this multi protein product cloud would, which is not keeping up anymore with the current reality and needs of a business. So we took the approach and compared death ops with a great service platform. So we have engineers building the platform. That's Integrated Security Service Platform, which promotes Esti Wen managed Detection response and Caspi Service is in one on the one platform which is tightly integrated. But in the in the customer focus that we provide them on or Pecs model, which is pretty, very predictable, very transparent in their security posture. Make that a scalable platform to operate and expand their business on. >> And that's great. Congratulations. I wanna go back for the final point here to round up the interview for the I T. Folks watching or, um, folks who have to implement multi cloud and hybrid cloud they're sitting there could be a cloud architect that could be an I T. Operations or 90 pro. They think multi cloud this in hybrid club. This is the environment. They have to get their arms around. How? What >> should they >> be thinking about? Around multi cloud and hybrid cloud. What is it, really? What's the reality now? What >> should they be considering for evaluation? What are some of the key things that that should be on their mind when they're dealing with hybrid cloud and all the opportunity around it? >> So I think they're they're like, four key pieces. Oneness. Um, they think they still have to start to think strategic. So what? It's a platform and a partner That helps them to plan ahead for the next 3 to 5 years in a way that they can really focus on what their business needs are. This is the scalability aspect. Secondly, it's a do. We have a network on security, our architecture that allows me to grow confidently and go down different venues to to actually adopt multi clouds without worrying about the security implication behind it. Too much, uh, and to implement it. And third is have this baseline and have this standardized security posture around wherever the data is moving, being at Mobil's being it SAS or being on Prem and in clouds workloads, the fourth pieces again, reading, thinking off where did you spend most of my time? Where do I create? Create value by by defining this framework so it really can create a benefit and value for the enterprise? Because if you do it not right your not right. You will have a way. You will end up with a an architecture that will break the business and not accelerated. >> Or it's made head of product that open systems here inside the Cube studios. Um, great job. Must love your job. You got the keys. A lot of pressure. Security being a product. Head of product for security companies. A lot of pressure before we wrap up. Just give a quick plug for the company. You guys hiring you have a new office space here in Redwood City. Looks beautiful. Give a quick shared play for the company. >> Yeah. So open systems the great company to work with. We're expanding in the U. S. On also, Amy, uh, with all the work force. So we're hiring. So go on our website. We have a lot off open positions, exciting challenges in a growth or into workspace. Andi. Yeah. As you said, security at the moment, it's one of the hottest areas to be in, especially with all the fundamental changes happening in the enterprise and architecture. I d landscape. So yeah, >> and clouds securing specifically. Not just in point. The normal stuff that people used to classify as hot as hot as Hades could be right now. But thanks for coming on. Strong insights. I'm jumping with Cuba here in Palo Alto with more Morris Man is the head of product management for open systems. Thanks for watching.

>> From Las Vegas, it's theCUBE, covering Open Systems. The future is crystal clear with security and SD-WAN. Brought to you by Open Systems. >> Okay, welcome back, CUBE coverage here in Las Vegas. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. We are here at the Chandelier Bar at the Cosmopolitan Hotel, also known as Cosmo. We're here as part of Open Systems exclusive, expert, influencer and customer party. As part of the overall week going on, Gartner's big event going on. A lot of action. We're here and our next guest is Moritz Mann. He's Chief Product Officer, CPO of Open Systems. Welcome to theCUBE. Thanks a lot. >> Yeah, good evening. >> So you got the keys to the kingdom, the product, the chief product officer has to run all the products. >> Yes, of course. You're in high demand from engineering to marketing. >> And sales of course and the customers. >> Sales, where's the product? Sales blames product, product blames sales. You know, you got to have that relationship if it's harmonious. >> Of course. >> It'll work. >> You guys are successful so it's working. >> Yeah it is and actually I think the most important part in the equation are the customers. I see more of the sales and especially customer success as kind of the gateway towards the customer to actually figure out where can we solve more problems for our customers and then create value. >> Can you step back and explain the value preposition for your product? First, describe the product or products >> Yeah. >> or core products, and the main value preposition. >> Open Systems was founded to, actually solve the key issue of a modern enterprise, which is, helping enterprises to actually master the digital transformation. And digital transformation is like a big, one of those big words, and in action it means that you have enterprises adopting multi cloud environments, connecting different locations cost efficiently, but also securing they keep business processes at the same time, so our solution comes in as a platform approach and would solve these issues by connecting, actually the end users, the business processes with the cloud and the applications and the customers. >> So operations is a big part of your success. >> Yeah, so-- >> Operating, helping operators. >> Exactly, so despite being just another yet appliance vendor, or a product vendor, or infrastructure vendor, we offer our services as a true service solution, which is-- >> Service or server? >> Service, so it's a managed service that you subscribe as a service, you consume as a service, you pay by per user, you don't have to worry about hard work, appliance costs, and actually scaling of these costs and suffer-- >> Yeah, so classic asses model. What problem are you solving for the customer? What's the way you guys are winning, why are they using you guys, why are they buying you? >> Yeah, I think one of the key, what we bring, keys that we bring is alternate key solution that comes with the operation's excellence included and manage operation's part. And one of the key differentiators is that we have an extraordinary security stack, in this SD-WAN platform, so we're not only providing and delivering applications for the users and customers but we are also protecting those applications from threats like ransomware attacks, red actors inside the network, and in the cloud environments. >> Explain the security stack piece, that's build into the SD-WAN product? >> Yeah. >> And that's a glued software you guys wrote? >> Yeah, so we have an OAM, it's like a highly scalable platform that consist of open source components with OM premium components, to do, like a DPI application detection and security threat detection, and these security functions can be enabled by use case, so for instance we have a piece that just, primarily they are to detect any lateral movement to prevent another ransomware attack like Maersk got into. >> So I'm going to ask you a question, I'll put you on the spot. So, I'm a customer. >> Yeah. >> And sometimes, I don't know, I have a problem, I'm a frog in bowling water, whatever the metaphor is, and I got issues. When do I know when to call you? What's happening around me, as a customer, to call up Open Systems to solve my problem? What are some of the symptoms I might see? What does it look like? Is it security sprawl? Are there solutions? Is it just not enough staff? What are some of these symptoms that make me want to dial you guys up? >> Great question. So one of those symptoms is that you notice that your end users are complaining so they have spotty internet, they have slow internet access, or you have SAP applications honors, for instance, that are very unsatisfied about the application's performance inside de WAN, or to the cloud. And you will notice that that's when we will get called and we will help you to actually maximize your network so you can actually focus on your core business, and not about where do I have to scare the infrastructure. >> So, performance is number one. >> It's performance. >> So basic performance stuff, what else? >> It's all about also visualizing and telling where actually do the customers have a good, or end users have a good performance of the network, and where do I have to actually expand and invest in the network and the cloud environment to actually improve customer's performance. >> Okay so here's another one: Hey, Moritz! I already got security covered. Why do I need more security, when? What gives? >> Yeah, I mean, security, you can spend endless money in security and yet have another appliance, and have another product to patch, like a Tect O problem, but you will end up in a growing stack of complexity. We'll provide you with a very strategic solution, that will help you to cover to 80% of your problems and in the end you have a budget of solutions that prevents the most of your threats to your network and to your applications. >> Okay, cool. Thanks for sharing that insight. This is like the customer dynamic. Now I want to get to the innovation piece, so as to when there used to be a bunch of network guys managing QoS, mostly packed stuff, all that good stuff, we kind of knew all that, but as the cloud comes in and as cloud operations and IT operations start to see things, like automation, AI, machine learning, data and all that stuff plays a new role, they're rethinking their architecture, so what innovations are in the horizon that you see coming? That will change the landscape of, as what SD-WAN is, and what it will become. What are the innovation areas to watch in? >> We are working already in the next generation for next year, which will enable our customers to identify any application inside of the network independent where that application is. So, it will be crucial to not think anymore in networks and how many appliances do I have where, but how fast can I get an application up and running in a new cloud. And this is where we are investing a lot, into cloud delivery, cloud integration, especially also with the partnership with Microsoft, we have a API integration to build, and actually launch new applications directly from the cloud but integrated into the SD-WAN, and including also all the security parameters that you need to secure in order to actually have a, not only application running and integrated in the network which is called Intent-Based Networking on the Gartner terms, but also have that secured in terms of business risk protection. >> What's the biggest feature request that you get asked for? Cause you're managing the product team, you're in roadmaps, you're here planning, you're marketing in sales teams, you're listening to customers, what are they asking for, what's your priorities? >> So priorities, foremost is automation and simplification, this are our core aspects in order to keep up with the, actually the new complexity that derives also in the cloud sprawl that's happening. So customers are not launching, one cloud, not two but multiple clouds in parallel, which they ask for, actually orchestration through the network and through integrated through into the cloud orchestration. And secondly, it's the whole Shadow IT, so, where do I have SAS applications I never knew about? How can we protect those applications well, and the data that we upload later too. >> Security surface area is huge. Final question for you, for people that are learning about who you guys are, Open Systems, it's expanding in the US, you're already successful you guys, great revenue, great success in the product side, so congratulations, but for the people that are learning about you, what's the culture like, and what one thing should they know about Open System, that they should know about? >> I think one cultural element that we really bring to the table is, we are unconventional in the way that how we solve customers' problems, and the amount of dedication and passion that we put into delivering the solution. So one of our core pillars is the defaults model, so that means that the engineers that are building that platform, are also at the same time your first year contacts when it comes to service management and support. That truly makes a difference in the customer experience. >> Programmable internet, programmable software, programmable deBAR as well, infrastructure as code, so you guys are like SD-WAN as code. (laughs) >> Exactly, it's similar to that. >> It's a new trend, it's like Blockchain (laughs) >> Exactly. >> You say Blockchain and anything is popular. >> We try to be as simple as that, that's true. >> Moritz, thanks for coming on theCUBE, late night here, this is theCUBE after draw, we are here, this Chandelier launch at the Cosmo, The Cosmopolitan Hotel for CUBE coverage at Open Systems' event for influencers, executives, experts and customers, of course, influencing theCUBE. We'll be back with more after this short break. (upbeat music)

>> From Las Vegas, it's theCUBE covering Open Systems. The future is crystal clear with security and SD-Wan. Brought to you by Open Systems. >> Hello everyone, I'm John Furrier here in Las Vegas for special CUBE presentation. We're at the Chandelier Bar at the Cosmopolitan Hotel, the Cosmo, on the Las Vegas strip. Part of a series of a lot of events going on. Gartner's got two events happening, But we're here as part of Open Systems. You got exclusive get-together of influencers, customers, all talking about the impact the Cloud, Secure, SD-Wan, a variety of other things. Open Systems, a very successful, Switzerland-based company expanding rapidly in the United States, a global platform and we're here with the CTO, Stefan Keller, thanks for joining me. >> Thank you for having me. >> You guys have been very successful in this, I will say, changing SD-Wan, a completely new re-imagined SD-Wan market because with the internet and Cloud, people don't want to connect to the internet anymore, they want either direct connection, they want high-secure, wide-area network connections. They want secure connections. More important than ever when you have Internet of Things, a lot of surface area, nevermind multiple headquarters or branch offices, so SD-Wan has gone from a connection, connectivity, move packets from A to B, to a fully-integrated, secure architecture that's easy to use, that can deal with mobile embedded. You guys have been successful, with almost no marketing, all word of mouth, successful product, tell us, Stefan, as the CTO, what is the most compelling thing about the technology that's been resonating with customers? >> Well, as I said, the last couple of years there was a lot of change, technology change. The requirements of our customers changed as well. With Cloud, you'll all of a sudden have traffic pattern that you didn't have before. Before, everything was static. You had just your band connectivity to the data center and there is left, towards the internet. But with SD-Wan, you now have the capability to have very complex traffic flow at the branch office, itself. So, you have a lot of logic that you put to the branch office and the challenge is now, how can you actually control all that traffic flow in a central way? Because in the end, all our customers or companies, what they want, they want to have the flexibility to use all those new technologies, be it Cloud, be it IOT, whatever. But still have the security in mind in the sense, they want to be protected, they want to be protected. You now have the branch office with a lot of new traffic patterns. How do you control that? And that's where our integrated approach of SD-Wan and security is the perfect fit. So you really have a global policy that you assign locally. >> One of the big trends that's happening now obviously, is the Cloud has grown so big and popular that the economics, you cannot ignore the economics and the value in the cloud for what you're paying. Agility, etc., we've heard that. However, validated even more than ever is on-premises. People are going to have an on-premises and Cloud or Hybrid Cloud solution. Now, IT departments and these people managing CSOS, managing all these people have to deal with the distributed, in some cases decentralized operations. The problem is there's so many vendors. They don't have the expertise so they need things as a managed service, sometimes they want to maybe choose something on premise that's deployed. So you need a diversity of choices without compromising ease of use. So the question for you is: How do you guys make that happen because this is something that you've heard people like about your product, complex, I hate the word single-pane of glass but that's been an IT term, that's essentially dashboard, central teams can use telemetry... and data but get the benefits of.. variety of environments. Why is it so successful, what is the choices for customer? Is it managed service, is that the direction? Or and odd PRAM, what's your thoughts? >> Yeah, that's a good point. In the end it's a combination because we are a managed service because, as you said, things get more complex and the talent market is challenging so it's difficult to find the right talents that can manage it. So that's where we come in as a strategic partner. We are not only in the SD-Wan market, we are also in the security market as well. So we combine security and the SD-Wan. That's what you see with all the SD-Wan vendors out there and they're very strong with SD-Wan capabilities but in order to provide security functionality they start to partner, be it with a firewall vendor, with a proxy vendor what so on. So, in the end, you as a customer, you don't deal just with one partner, all of a sudden you have four, five, or even six such partners you have to deal with. And if a managed service provider can provide a holistic approach of security and SD-Wan you have one partner you can deal with so it makes, for you, very easy. >> So a lot of peoples have say, "oh" they've been trying security, a variety, "we've seen every scheme in the book." And the easiest one was, oh, network traffic. Pack an inspection, kind of not very good. But you want to watch the bad guys move. When things are moving around, that's when you get the pattern recognition. Is there software that you guys write? How do you get that security edge? Is it watching the movement patterns, not just the packets but who has what systems, is it a variety of things? What's the underlying secret sauce for Open Systems? >> The secret sauce, well let's say, is that we are flexible to take out whatever is state of the art and put it together to a managed service in a standardized way for our customers If you look as today's companies they want to do it on their own. They may have to deal with 30, 40 different kind of vendors and components and put it together. We do that for our customers. We take state of the art technology, put it together, and make all the service of it. And the advantage is, because we have that high level of integration, we can all of a sudden, use one component for different kind of services we provide. That's the difference when you have an ecosystem like SD-Wan where you have three, four components, they don't really talk with each other, they do not have a common language. We bring that common language so that the consistent view and the consistent logic over the entire band of our customers. >> So you're the glue layer. Between all the different components. >> Right. >> Okay, so I got to ask you a question. If someone says to you "hey Stefan, this other vendor promised me all this stuff over here, some other person. I got to get current on SD-Wan." What do you think people don't know about SD, whether they should know, that might be a surprise or things that you've observed with your successful customer deployments that's a lot harder than it looks. Cause a lot of people say "oh we got that!" And it doesn't really work very well. Or is a blind spot for the CSOS team, security team, around capabilities. So you can be aspirational but you got to have the capability what are some areas that you've seen that are important for buyers to consider when architecting and then deploying and executing an SD-Wan strategy? >> I mean, When you see all those SD-Wan vendors what they say, "hey it's easy to deploy, it's zero-touch deployment." Can't be true but in the end, you have a global network you want to deploy a global policy and somehow, you have to manage that. And this is something that most of them just underestimate. You only need, really, a strategic partner who knows how to deal with it, who has the capabilities, the experience, and the know-how to deploy it easily and manage it for you So then you don't have the pain. >> Give me an example of a customer, you don't have to say their name, where the old way they did something and then the Open Systems side of it, they did it your way and watch changed, what was the impact? Did they have more efficiency with the people? Did they save time, what was some of the consequences of doing the old way versus the new way? >> The old way also then involved some kind of an MPLS network, or course, if we go with the SD-Wan approach, the really good ones convince a customer, "hey, you don't need MPLS for the application you need." For the SLA you want to have. Internet connectivity if fine and just have two or three such internet connection per location. So in the end, it was cost-saving, it was a full put agreement. Performance all of a sudden was very great and in the end they liked us because of our operational efficiency so our operations model is very efficient and helps our customers so that they can focus on their core business. >> So the applications get smarter, and then you actually saved money because, remember, it still costs a lot of money to send traffic over the network, in some cases. Okay, final question. There's a big trend towards direct connections, where do you see that going, how does that impact SD-Wan? >> I would say that's again on the security side because with SD-Wan, you have a lot of flexibility we just didn't have in the past. This means you have traffic flow all of a sudden which is not expected by many people. If you go to a single branch office, a small one, all of a sudden they have local exits, they do internet surfing, youtube video-ing, they have connections to their private data center, to their public Cloud environment, everything. So different kind of traffic pattern. And here we have just the single way, a unique approach, about a global Zone-Based Firewall. So this makes your traffic pattern all of a sudden very transparent and simple again, this helps you to control the traffic flow and to avoid any kind of leak. >> As we always say, don't send those cat videos. It still costs money to share the cat videos around. Super Content is a big part of this too, you've got all kinds of new SAS applications, talking to each other, this is another layer of abstraction that needs to be managed. That's an area you guys do? API's and applications? >> We're going in that direction, I would say we're not that far yet. We can do much more but this is the direction we have to go to. >> Final question: you come to the U.S. A lot of people are learning about you guys, If we're at a cocktail party, which we are at now, and I say "hey Stefan, bottom line me, what's the one thing about Open Systems that makes you guys great?" >> Then I'll still go back to our operational excellence. We really have a way to operate thousands of devices in a way that is so efficient and scaled very well for a huge customer base. >> Alright Stefan, thanks for coming on. Stefan Keller, CTO of Open Systems, hot start-up out of Zurich, Switzerland. A very successful company, really now exploding in the United States, expanding to Silicon Valley. We are here in Las Vegas, theCUBE coverage. Bringing all the action down here at the Open Systems influencer, expert cocktail party, here at the Chandelier Bar at the Cosmo hotel. Part of a lot of events around Gartner's events are here. Covering it all, stay with us for more after this short break. (chill electronic beats)

>> From Las Vegas, it's theCUBE. Covering Open Systems. The future is crystal clear with security in SD-WAN. Brought to you by Open Systems. >> Welcome back to Las Vegas everybody, my name is Dave Valanti and you're watching theCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage. We go out to the events, we extract the signal from the noise. We are covering the Open Systems networking event. They're here as part of the two Gartner events here this week. On the heels of AWS Reinvent, a lot of action going on in Las Vegas. Steve Garson is here, he's the president and founder of SD-WAN experts consultancy in this space. Steve, thanks so much for coming on theCUBE. >> Glad to be here. >> So tell us a little bit more about your background. >> Okay. I've been in the networking space since about 2007. Initially, my company was called MPLS Experts, when companies were migrating to MPLS and not understanding, well, what carriers should I use. I helped companies re-engineer their WAN back then. As that developed, the WAN optimization came into the scene and I helped companies evaluate the right WAN optimization solution. Then I had the foresight to see the potential of SD-WAN. I pivoted the business, called it SD-WAN Experts and started writing for network world and blogging on my own sites and with a number of other websites. I've been helping enterprises worldwide re-engineer their network, make a WAN transformation that's secure and supports easy management and save a lot of money. >> So, awesome. So you have a practitioners background, right? >> Exactly. >> That's fair to say. So you know your stuff, let's get into it. So let's talk trends, I mean. At a high level we always talk at theCUBE about the cloud and how that's affecting network traffic. Going from North South to East West has a major impact on security and performance. What are the big trends in the market space that you see, that are relevant? >> Well, we see consolidation obviously. (coughs) Obviously moving to the cloud is a big driver. The WAN has been designed for a data center with an MPLS network. That's a hub and spoke architecture that really doesn't make sense anymore. Companies are moving to Office 365, they're using Salesforce.com, they're using all kinds of softwares and service. That just doesn't work with a data center. So what companies have traditionally done is they have regional secure gateways and they're sending the traffic from an office to a secure gateway and now they're going through the internet. It just is convoluted, the traffic is tromboned and the latency is higher than it has to be. They're spending more money for these expensive circuits that, ultimately, they're going to the internet anyways. >> So, there's a lot of technical debt out there. How does a company go from point A to point B without spending a zillion dollars or bringing in, you know, a huge SI to re-architect everything. Is there a path that you can advise customers, or is it just every situation is a snowflake? >> You could probably define a half-dozen different basic situations that are snowflakes. Essentially you're moving to, you know, if you have an MPLS network companies typically will need more bandwidth and instead of getting more MPLS bandwidth they'll add internet connectivity. Using SD-WAN they'll root traffic over the internet that's supposed to go to the internet. The things that are still required on their MPLS network will stay in play. When those MPLS contracts expire, then there's a question of, do I need MPLS? That's a complicated question to answer. I will not say that you can eliminate MPLS, I'll always say it depends. It depends on the latency between paths on your network. I presented a paper at O-NUG a few weeks ago in New York, in which I analyzed with a lot of empirical data. Latency, packet-loss, and standard deviation of that latency between paths like from Tokyo to New York. You might a have 200 millisecond latency. But your standard deviation over the internet might be 200 milliseconds. So that means, potentially, if you're using only the internet, you might have 400 milliseconds latency. Can your application work appropriately? >> If you need 200 guaranteed, you've got a problem. Right? >> Right, exactly. In a situation like that, you might want to use MPLS or there's a new category of connectivity called SDCore which is an MPLS network in the Cloud that you access through an IPSec VPN to pops that are typically within 20 milliseconds. So you get that stability, but you cut the cost dramatically. >> Now the Edge just confuses us even further, right? IOT, The Edge, I mean certainly a trend everybody's talking about. From your standpoint, how real is it? Is it here today? Is it coming? What is the effect going to be on all these trends? >> You mean, the Edge? >> Yeah, the Edge, IOT. >> I mean it's a complicated thing. I mean the Edge. >> The industrial internet. >> Yeah, I mean, when people talk about the Edge today the Edge used to be their router and SD-WAN devices are supplanting the router. Gartner has indicated that by 2023 nobody is going to be buying routers. Everybody is going to be using an SD-WAN device which will route. >> Amazon, we were at Reinvent last week, they might even look at the data center as the Edge. But, I digress. Let's talk about the horses on the track. Lay out the competitive environment right now. We're here at the Open Systems event. Where do they fit in the market landscape? >> Open Systems is a very unique company where people will say, who's Open Systems competitor. They really don't have a competitor because they're unique. Open Systems is a company that has a secure SD-WAN which means there's a full security stack with SD-WAN. So you have the benefits of SD-WAN, but instead of having to deal with all these different security applications like HASBY, Data-loss Prevention, and IPSIDS, authentication, VPN integration with active directory. They do all of that and it's all managed. It's a very unique offering. >> So the competition is Do-It-Yourself, right? >> The competition is Do-It-Yourself or use a managed service provider who probably doesn't have all the pieces that work together. Open Systems has been doing this for 25 years. They have developed what the customers want. I went to one of their global customer meetings. They called a cap meeting last year. Each year they get input from the customers as far as what kind of enhancements they want to see. They actually take that input and the following year the customers, I was amazed, the customers just are thrilled that the company listens and the company implements what they ask. >> Again, I've mentioned there's a couple of Gartner shows going on this week. Sounds like Open Systems wouldn't really fit cleanly into a magic quadrant. >> They don't. They don't because they're not an Edge device. They're a complete Edge security solution that's managed. >> We talked about this at theCUBE, John Ferrs has brought up several times that the magic quadrants will have to evolve as these managed services, the Cloud certainly affects that. As more and more things get co-opted by the services, you know, economy. But, your thoughts on magic quadrants, how customers are using them. My understanding is, today, you heard a talk from a Gartner analyst that was helping people understand the do's and don'ts of a magic quadrant. Your thoughts? >> Yeah, well what Gartner was talking about today is how many people use the magic quadrant inappropriately. They think this tells us which companies we should look at and really what it's telling you is how that customer's strategy fits in with the market place. But you really have to look at what your requirements are. You can't just say, okay I'm going to look at quote the top three SD-WAN vendors. What are your requirements? That's what my firm does as a consultant is we help companies figure out what their requirements are to find out what's the right solution. A story I love to tell is a company that spent a year evaluating SD-WANs. They were about to make a decision and the CIO basically told the committee after a year of evaluations hey before we sign a contract, let's get an independent sanity check that we've made the right decision. I met with the company, spent a couple weeks assessing their requirements, and I know all of the major technologies and I knew that what they had selected wasn't correct. But you can't tell a client that they've made a mistake. So we set up a meeting with the vendor, which was a carrier, and their technology provider and the committee and I asked the hard questions that the vendor couldn't answer. Which made it really clear to the client that this is the wrong solution. They went a completely different direction. >> Saved them a lot of money. I love those stories. What's your website? >> SD-WAN-experts.com >> Alright, Steve thanks so much for coming on theCUBE. Sharing your knowledge. >> Thank you. >> Awesome stuff. Really appreciate it. >> Pleasure. >> Keep it right there, everybody. We'll be back from Las Vegas Cosmo hotel. Open Systems networking event. You're watching theCUBE. (techno music)

>> From Las Vegas, it's theCUBE. Covering Open Systems, the future is crystal clear with security and SD-WAN. Brought to you by Open Systems. >> Welcome back to Las Vegas everybody, you're watching the CUBE, the leader in live tech coverage. We're here covering the open systems networking event. Two Gardner events this week in Las Vegas. Big month. Last week, of course, was AWS re:Invent, 53,000 people. Talking security, cloud, all kinds of cool stuff going here at the Cosmopolitan Hotel. Matt Creeg is here, he's the chief revenue officer at Open Systems. 36 hours in Matt-- >> 36 hours in. >> You're an expert. >> And I'm in Vegas. >> Like, lay down the plutonium. Thanks for coming on theCUBE, it's good to see you. >> Thanks for having me, thanks for having me. >> So, first question. Why did you join Open Systems? >> You know, that's a great question. I asked myself that a lot over the past three months in discussions with the Open team. And really, it's a different offering. It's a complete offering. It's not a product, it's really a solution and a service. And I really feel like it's something that the market really needs and really wants and has really been asking for from a SD-WAN perspective, from a security perspective, from a sock perspective. It's really a solution or an offering that the market has demanded. So when I started in discussions with the Open team, it became clear, it became compelling to me, that this was something that customers wanted, customers needed, and customers have been asking for for five, eight, 10 years, really. >> Awesome. We're going to come back and unpack some of those things-- >> Okay. >> A little bit. But before we do, a little bit on your background. You're brand new here. >> 36 hours. >> Just left Cisco via the Vintela acquisition. The company we've tracked closely for V Nacarazhu, good friend of theCUBE. Tell us about your journey. >> Yeah, so-- >> Who is Matt Creeg? >> Matt Creeg was, I will claim I was the first field sales guy of Vintela. The VP of sales hired me just prior just pre-product launch. So I really started Vintela from zero customers, zero revenue, SD-WAN didn't exist when I started there, to an acquisition by Cisco and 18 months with Cisco post-acquisition continuing to build that team, continue to build that market. >> So Cisco is pretty renowned for its acquisitions, it certainly chambers big part of him building Cisco was through acquisitions. >> Absolutely. >> Made a lot of good ones, they weren't all great, but most were really quite good. The Vintela acquisition, as I understand it, when you guys plugged in to the Cisco model, you really scale to me. First of all, you had to get to the point where you were an interesting acquisition target. You had to prove some success. And then my understanding is things exploded. So you were part of that? >> It was a crazy ride. It was four and a half years later, I can't believe it's been four and a half years. It was simultaneously the longest and shortest time of my life. It was the blink of an eye. >> Awesome. So you're obviously trying to bring some of that magic to Open Systems. Let's come back to the differentiation. So, you gave us some sort of high level overview of what was different. When you look at the market, what are some of the trends that you see that this company is vectoring into that attracted you? >> So, there's a very clear trend around network architecture, WAN architecture, WAN traffic patterns changing, based on everything moving to the cloud. Really based on workloads moving around, workloads moving out of corporate data centers into AWS. You said you were at re:Invent last week. >> Yep. >> AWDS as your GCP. So we're really seeing workloads move around. We're seeing workloads move out of a corporate data center, which has changed traffic patterns substantially. That's what SD-WAN really came to the market to address those changes in traffic patterns. What Open offers over a traditional SD-WAN player is really a fully managed, full white glove network solution. So it's not just, as I said earlier, it's not just a product, it's not just an SD-WAN product. It's really a true solution and a true white glove offering. >> So one of the things we talk about a lot is the transition from north/south traffic to east/west, what people are talking about, as you just described, moving from various clouds, on-prem, SaaS is another major force. I heard a stat the other day, the average company, average global 2,000 has eight clouds. Siglo Media has eight clouds. And when you throw in SaaS, >> Eight might be a little low. >> 80, right. As I was saying, it's small companies. So, you have all this data that's now distributed. So SD-WAN helps what? Fill in the blank. >> Helps connect securely and seamlessly connect to all of those different clouds. To all of those different areas of data. And really gives customers the ability, gives IT departments the ability to provide a rich, very high user experience for connectivity to all of those different types of clouds. >> Well we used to be, we didn't realize at the time, but it used to be relatively simple. Secure the perimeter, build a moat, and we'll be good. >> And everything was in your data center. Just protect that data center and you don't have to worry. >> Control it all, I could see it all. Now that notion of perimeter is gone. Security has to be fundamental to what you do. If you're moving workloads around and data around, security is paramount. So talk about the ethos of security. Why is it a priority for you guys? And what is it about Open Systems that makes you guys qualified to be that leader? >> So it's interesting. I don't know where I heard it, but somebody quoted, or somebody said a while ago, our generation work has become something we do, rather than somewhere we go. And that really speaks to that moat experience. That everything is within those corporate walls, right? So, as we move outside of that, as we work from the Cosmopolitan Hotel in Las Vegas, security becomes paramount. Securing that workstation, securing that endpoint that your customer, that your end user is leveraging to connect to all of your data becomes paramount. So making sure that not only is that end station secure, but the connectivity in between that end station and all of your different sources, all of your different applications, all of your your different data sources is encrypted, is authenticated. Everything is secured and controlled is key. The other thing that we're seeing is with the move to SaaS, with the move to O365, with the move to Workday and Salesforce, the ability to securely connect directly to those applications becomes key. Not traversing through a corporate data center or a corporate DMZ to get to those services is key. So really extending security all the way down to that edge or to that endpoint becomes key. And providing a full service, a full manage service, a full monitoring service around all of those endpoints becomes key. >> So performance becomes critical. And so, again, I know you're early in, but in the conversations that you had leading up to you taking this position, you probably talked to some customers, you're at the Gardner event today. What kinds of things, performance, et cetera, are customers asking for in this space? >> That's a great question. That's a very good question. So everybody is asking for the best performance, the best user experience that they can possibly get. Right? And interestingly enough it's almost become corporate IT is getting compared to consumer IT. How come when I'm at home and I'm on my Verizon Fios connection, access to Office 365 is so much better than when I'm in the corporate office? So really we're being compared to that kind of metric. We're really being compared to that always on, always accessible, instant access type of user experience. >> In a manage service though, it's almost like you bring in the cloud experience to wherever your data lives. Whether it's in a public cloud, in a SaaS, on-prem, we were just talking to hill & brand, might be IoT at the edge at some point in time. And it sounds like, if I understand it correctly, that you want to be the most secure, the highest performance, the best user experience, fully managed for those different types of installation environments. >> That's a very good, yeah, you got it. You need a job? >> I got one, but thank you. (both chuckling) Thanks so much for coming to theCUBE. >> My pleasure. >> Best of luck. We'll be watching. High expectations, but you've done it before. Good luck in doing it again. >> Good to do it again. >> Alright, take care. >> Thanks for the time. >> Keep it right there, everybody. We'll be back with our next guest. You're watching theCUBE from Cosmopolitan Hotel at the Open Systems networking event. We'll be right back.

>> From Las Vegas, it's theCUBE, covering Open Systems, the future is crystal clear with security and SD-WAN. Brought to you by Open Systems. >> Welcome back to Las Vegas everybody. My name is Dave Vellante and you're watching theCUBE. The leader in live tech coverage. We're here at the Cosmopolitan Hotel in the Chandelier Bar. At the Open Systems networking event, two gardener events this week in Las Vegas. On the heels of last week's AWS reinvent. Suresh Manchella is here. Is the Director of Global Infrastructure at Hillenbrand. Suresh, welcome to theCUBE. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you. >> So, tell me about Hillenbrand. What you guys do, and what your role is. >> So, Hillenbrand owns two different companies. One is the Batesville Casket Company, which has been around about 150 years or so. And then the other side of the business is Process Equipment Group, where we do industrial pumps, separations, and heavy machinery, and things in that nature. >> Okay and your role as Global and Infrastructure, so it touches on all infrastructure presumably secure. Why don't you describe the scope of a little bit. >> So, my role is I'm the Global Director of Infrastructure from a corporate stand point. I oversee everything, you know network storage systems, compute cloud initiatives, and what not. Including some of the outside security operations as well. For Hillenbrand Corporate across all the companies that we own. >> So you guys manufacture industrial equipment, which presumably supports a time's critical infrastructure, so security is vital. What are some of the big factors that are driving your business and how do they affect your technology strategy? >> From a business standpoint, Hillenbrand, I'm in that space a lot. We try to acquire a lot of companies within that space and as a result we have many companies that are coming in and out our portfolio. With any other manufacturing companies, we have the same challenges where how do we integrate them faster? How do we integrate them in a secure and safer way? But at the same time, also enabling our businesses to take on the next step and evolve from a traditional manufacturing company to doing the digital transformation and taking advantage of technology to have the competitive advantage in the market. >> So I got to ask you, so we do a lot of these events everyone talks about digital transformation. It's become kind of a buzzword, but when I talk to practitioners like yourself, there's actually substance there and it relates to, it means a lot of different things to a lot of different people, but what's behind your digital transformation? Is it instrumentation, is it better collection of data? Is it using that for competitive advantage? All of the above? How would you describe it? >> You said it. It's all of the above. We have a lot of data that we're collecting over the years. About our customers. How they use our products. And what are some of the maintenance cycles that are going through our larger equipment, things of that nature. We have all of that information. I think we need to start looking at that information, and say how can we enable the business to provide the intelligence it needs to be proactive to reach out to the customers and say these machinery might need maintenance very soon, or things of that nature. So we want to provide that value to the business. >> So as part of that, Suresh, the instrumenting that machinery? Or is the machinery already instrumented? Is it translating analog to digital and providing connectivity, what's behind that? >> Some of our machinery that have been out there have been there for, you know, many many decades and many, many years. It's not they're not already there when it comes to IoT and things to that nature. But we're trying to look at some of those opportunities out there and see how we can better support our products. >> So that's a largely road map stuff. Right now, you're tryna focus on making sure that the business is working. You're getting products to market fast and winning the competitive game. Let's talk about security a little bit. Obviously Open Systems is a security company, manage security infrastructure. What's happening in security? What are the big trends, the mega trends that you see, and how are they affecting the way in which you approach technology and applying that to business advantage? >> So as a customer and as a manufacturing company traditionally we used to look at a company as you have your four walls: data center, all of your key elements are inside it and as we're going through what's the cloud transformation and everybody's talking about that cloud buzzword. Those boundaries are getting shattered. Information is everywhere. It's no longer within those four boundaries. So we have to start thinking security a different way. We used to think that, put some firewalls, put some controls around these things and things could be saved. But it's no longer the case. Everything is in the cloud. As a software as a service or platform as a service, infrastructure as a service. And they're all over the place. For the most part, you don't have access to those backing systems. So how do you protect them? We need to fundamentally change how we look at security and how do we protect it. Rather than focusing on the central systems, we have to focus on the endpoints at this point. >> So, different mindset for sure. Different sort of technology approach? Or similar practices with just different methodologies? How do you describe that? >> It's certainly a different methodology. The focus is certainly shifting. It's no longer centralized. It's decentralized. It's information everywhere. Information overload. It could be on your phones. It could be on your desktops. It could be on your laptops. It could be on servers in the cloud. Cloud service providers, there are a lot of things that come into play, when you're talking about the security the data that's scattered all over the place. >> So you're a customer of Open Systems, is that right? >> Yes we are. >> Maybe you could describe what you do with them and what your relationship has been with them? How do you apply their technique? >> Hillenbrand owns a company based out of Germany. And they've been a long standing customer of Open Systems for many, many years. So as a part of the acquisition, we got to know Open Systems and the value that their adding to in the SD-WAN spaces, and security space. Which is quite phenomenal. >> Okay, so you're part of the role as it relates to Open Systems is through that other division of the company, so how you apply their tech? What are you doin' with it? >> We utilize Open Systems as our SD-WAN provider outside the U.S. Primarily that division that we had was outside the U.S. for the most part. As we are getting to know more and more about Open Systems, over the years, it's a no brainer for us. They can provide a very reliable service that's scalable, very quick turnarounds. And that's certainly fitting in well with our MNA strategy where we acquire a company and try to integrate these things we cannot wait several months for and ambulance provider to drop a circuit and get them in, and things to that nature so with Open Systems, the SD-WAN concept, you only need an internet connection and they do all the magic behind the scenes and put it all together. >> So it's cloud like in the sense that it's sort of a managed service. But it's not necessarily remote cloud services, it could be on prim. >> Yes, it can be anywhere. >> Eventually at the edge. >> Yeah. >> So it fits into the roadmap. What's the biggest security challenge that you face as a practitioner today? >> The biggest security challenge that we have is protecting the data that's everywhere. The biggest challenge is knowing where the data is today. If anybody can solve that problem, I'd like to know. The first one to know that. It's quite a challenge for everybody lately. >> It's an arm's race, isn't it? >> It Is. >> Good. Well, Suresh, thanks very much for coming to theCUBE. It's a pleasure meeting you. >> Thank you. >> Keep it right there everybody, we'll be back. From Las Vegas at the Open Systems networking event. You're watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

(upbeat instrumental music) >> From Las Vegas it's the CUBE. Covering Open Systems, the future is crystal clear with security and SD-WAN. Brought to you by Open Systems. >> Hello everyone and welcome back to the CUBE. We are here in Las Vegas in the Cosmo hotel in the Chandelier bar. Part of Open Systems get together, kind of session of smart people gathered. All part of big week here in Vegas. Garden is having a big event, a lot of things happening. We have Martin Bosshardt who is the CEO of Open Systems who's hosting the event. Thanks for coming on the CUBE. >> Thank you. >> Thanks for joining me. Okay so, I got to get this out there. You guys are in Switzerland headquarters. You've just established big presence in Silicon Valley. >> Right. >> And you've expanding rapidly in Silicon Valley, congratulations. >> Thank you. >> Explain what you guys do, how you started, where you come from and what's the story of Open Systems? >> Well, originally we started as managed security service provider and I managed security infrastructure. We learned, especially if you are doing financial services, security infrastructure, if you try to update you need to go into those data centers. And that is harder to get in there, it's like entering North Korea. So we learned to operate that stuff remotely and that really brought us in more than 180 countries, especially with industry companies. Industry they manufacturing, they started to globalize their value chains, and that really helped us to globalize our foot print. And obviously to do that we used SD-WAN. So we definitely came from the security space, but today we are the largest SD-WAN, standardize SD-WAN platform we a fully integrated security staff. >> So how big is the company roughly people-wise? What's a... >> We are 200 plus people currently, and a 50 plus million revenue this year. >> How big, sounds like the customers are really large complex data centers with a lot of offices and facilities. Is that your makeup of your customer base right now? >> Our customer base really is, I think, I mean obviously financial services that's always if you start in Switzerland a company, the financial services is very important. But then also, industry, manufacturing is especially companies with globalized value chains are very interested in our services. Because you have serious complexity from regulatory point of view, but also from operational point of view to operate SD-WAN in a secured way. So this is really our sweet spot. >> So explain the difference between SD-WAN old way and the new way, because SD-WAN was simply connecting branch offices together, basic networking stuff. Mean its like connectivity. So today is much more complex. What's the difference between the SD-WAN environment thing, because there is a resurgence with SD-WAN. With cloud computing, with the internet, obviously with secure issues, it's a whole different ball game. Explain the difference between the old way and the new way. >> Well the old way was it just connected occasions and then you piped traffic through a VPN, right. And I think we learned a lot about what SD-WAN is really capable to do when we start to work for the NGO Space, when you use a lot of satellite traffic. It's very expensive to pipe everything through the satellites, so you need to slice the traffic into important stuff, less important stuff and then you decide what are you going to route through the satellite and what you going to route terrestric. And this is really where the whole magic of SD-WAN comes from. You certainly have to, the freedom to route traffic application based in a very different way. So, you're not bound to protocols anymore, so you really can route your Office 365 traffic different than your Facebook traffic. You can route, you can priortize. >> So you can differentiate between the traffic types first. That was a first, discovery. >> That was important for us, because we managed infrastructure and obviously you don't want to create congestion by managing infrastructure. So, it is really about, what traffic is important? What traffic is time critical? >> Yeah. >> And route, depending on the application needs, traffic differently. >> Yes, cost is always a big motivator. But for innovation. >> Cost performance. It's always cost performance, right? >> So, I get that's awesome and by the way that's how startups figure out innovations that don't have a lot of capital. They figure it out by being effective and making things work. When did the security piece click in for you guys? When you guys saw SD-WAN, when was the moment you said, "Okay we are going to do all these things to save costs and do this kind of routings and these kinds of policy based". I'm over simplifying, but you know what I'm saying. When did security become important? Was it from the beginning? Was it a discovery? Was it something that was a, you just caught the wave? Explain how you guys became so prolific in your product with security. >> We definitely, we came sort of from the security space and the SD-WAN was something we used to operate security infrastructure. So it's maybe, we looked at it a little bit different, but at the end of the day, SD-WAN creates so much opportunities for companies. And I believe the whole cloud movement is creating so many opportunities for companies to move fast, to create growth. Also, if you think IoT, it creates whole different business models for almost all enterprise organizations. >> Talk about the business model, that's important, because go ahead finish your thoughts. >> And now the question is, How can you embrace all that growth and managing the risks? And that's what's happening right now. We help customers to combine the security. >> So one of the things we were here last week for Amazon re:Invent big event for Amazon web services and they announce a non-premise product. No one thought they were ever going to do that. So I asked the CEO there why they were doing that, essentially he said, "latency kills". Certain latency is now the new problem. You learned that from the satellite situation where cost and latency are really important factors in determining how you architect things. But then you realize that the business models are shifting. So, I ask you, as you have need for security and low latency, people are looking for direct connections. They don't want to route traffic through internet. Who knows where it's going to go though, China? It's all these hidden problems. >> Yeah, and you know I agree basically. Latency kills, but I also disagree, because there are applications where latency is not an issue, like email. I mean you couldn't care less about latency in email. >> In fact don't deliver it. (laughs) >> But at the same time it's really important that a network understands not only how it routes, it also understands what it routes. And that is the power of SD-WAN, so you really can route different applications in different routes. >> Right time, right place kind of thing. >> Exactly and then it depends where it's consumed, where it's delivered and where do you route those >> Talk about your business model now, you got a U.S. Why the U.S. expansion? Is it right for growth? Is it a natural progression? What's the strategy, Why U.S. expansion? >> Actually, what we see the U.S. is moving very fast to the cloud right now and this is an opportunity for us to really support that, I would call it transformation. It's really an industry transformation is happening right now and we just in Europe maybe to bring down the cost of connectivity. That's still more of a business driver, and obviously, that's always exciting to bring down costs. But if you move to cloud, you really have to rethink your network structure and also you have to rethink your security posture. So this is just a way of opportunity. >> Martin, I got to ask you honestly, I've been kind of checking around Silicon Valley and you guys have a good vibe and good buzz. Certainly great reputation in Switzerland, great product, great work, but you are attracting kind of new talent from the Bay area, Cisco in particular. A lot of these high-powered people. Networking guys, developers. Who are you guys looking to attract into your office as you expand, I know you got a lot of openings. It's not a recruiting plug, but I mean as you look to put the team together, What are you guys looking for? What's the kind of individual? What's the culture of your company? What's the kind of things people can expect if they work there? >> I mean we are focused on, we just want to create the most amazing networks in a secured way. And I believe this is very attractive, what we've created the last couple of years. And that is also attractive for talent in Silicon Valley. But obviously, it's a competitive market. But it's all over the world, it's competitive market. And I believe, especially going to the market and understanding what the world needs. That's very powerful in Silicon Valley. The eco-system is very powerful, so for us is clear. We want to be there, we want to play a role. >> That's awesome, we look forward to doing more content. Final question for you, If you could have to nail down the core problem that you guys are trying to solve. As the world evolves, the landscape continues, the world gone global. You're seeing all kinds of needs, all kinds of intelligence. What have the top problems that your team is working on, to continue to iterate and solve, What are the big things you are trying to nail down? >> We want to make it for a customer very easy to consume a secure SD-WAN. And that sounds maybe simple, but it's not. To operate an SD-WAN in a secure way is really challenge. So most companies operate like 40, 50 different products to achieve that. >> Yeah. >> And we us it's like subscribing a service. >> Quick plug last minute, What's your product? 'Cause you have a deal with multiple vendors. Is this a SAS product, on-premise, cloud? >> It's a SAS, on prem available and it's availa6ble in all major cloud (mumbles), like Azuren and Amazon. So it's in all clouds premises working. >> You're literally Switzerland, for the cloud. (laughs) >> Yeah. >> They use that expression in the United States a lot. >> Yeah. >> We're Switzerland, we're neutral. >> Yeah, we're Switzerland, we're neutral. We're actually very neutral and also... >> But seriously, you can work with, if I'm the customer >> Right. >> I have multiple clouds, I have multiple vendors. I have a ton of security products. Can I use you guys? >> Right, yeah it's simple. I mean we are already a platform so we use many security products and orchestrate so they work together. >> What are the common things you get from customers that have been successful with you. And I don't want to say single (mumbles) lessons that is an old IT expression, but the world has to be smarter, faster, dashboard oriented, AP harden, APIs, a lot of data traversal. What's the ideal end state for your customers, when you guys are successful? >> You have to repeat that question. >> From a customer, what's the value purchase to me? Am I saving time? Am I integrating multiple devices? >> You save a lot of time, you save a lot of money. And I believe the most important thing is, we see ourself as weapon in a war for talent. It's just impossible for our customers to find the talents to really operate that stuff in a good way. And we make that much easier. So obviously, you cannot outsource security, but you can make security easy, manageable and that's where we... >> And operational, make it work. >> And operational, make it work, and that's I believe the key already. >> Well Martin, congratulations on the expansion strategy. Real quick, What's going on in Vegas for you guys here? What are you guys here talking about? What's the big story here for you guys? >> Well basically, obviously, we grow very fast so we also use this to bring together people. But then also, everybody is here right now. It's great to see winners, it's great to see partners. It's great to see competitors, so it's just important to understand the market. It's also, there are worst place in the world to be. >> Yeah. >> In Las Vegas. >> Build those relationships, thanks so much for coming on the CUBE, really appreciate it. >> Thank you so much. >> I'm here with the CEO of Open Systems from John Furrier the CUBE, we are here at the Chandelier bar at the Cosmo. We are just getting started, we got a couple bunch more interviews still to come. We just had the FBI on, really importa6nt conversations around security, cybersecurity, enterprise security, and how to make SD-WAN work. We'll be right back with more. Stay with us after this short break. (techno music)

>> From Las Vegas, it's theCUBE. Covering Open Systems, the future is crystal clear with security and SD-WAN. Brought to you by Open Systems >> Hello everyone, welcome to theCUBE, We're here in Las Vegas again for another awesome set of conversations. CUBE coverage here at the Cosmopolitan hotel at the Chandelier Bar. We're here covering Open Systems having a special event in conjunction with a lot of the conference going on, Gardner has a big symposium, lot of things happening, we're here with M.K. Palmore whose the head of the FBI'S cyber security, San Francisco branch of the FBI, great to have you thanks for spending time. >> Thanks for having me, John. Much appreciated >> Chandelier Bar, everyone's having a good time, you guys had a lot of sessions today, conversations. You gave a speech today during a session around info sec and culture. >> Info sec risk and leadership. >> Okay talk about that, what will you, what was your main theme. >> Yeah, so I've over the past five years or so had the opportunity to go out and speak a lot about the cyber threat landscape. Going into this year, because the message is getting a little stayed and old, I think I want to concentrate on those issues that I think can help move the ball down the field a little bit. So, talking about cyber security risks as an enterprise risk, discussing it as a matter of an enterprises responsibility to address cyber securities as an enterprise risk is an important message to carry, and I like to add in topics and subjects about leadership, and tie all of those in because in my view, information security professionals have to be leaders as well, because we're all venturing into space that's not known to us. >> That's a great point, leadership also has to take into the new environment, your dealing with you know, a decentralized threat landscape, distributed, decentralized. >> Global. >> Back in the old days when I was in college, you get a pager, you get a new one, now you get flip phones and you can swap em out, now you're everywhere, you got social media, the ability to dodge the authorities, is easier, almost easier than ever before, requires you guys to be on your toes, to catch the bad guys, you need cutting edge technology, but you got to have a mindset in a management culture of leadership, to empower people at the edges. How are you guys thinking about, cause this is like one of the main cyber topics is, setting that system up to be nimble, reactive, used data, >> Right. >> What's your thoughts? >> Yeah so I mean, frankly the FBI is learning in new ways to approach this cyber security problem. We understand that we have to hire the right people with the right talent and that we as an organization we're used, frankly we're used to fighting you know, bad guys in the streets, are now taking this fight to the networked environment and we have to come up with new ways of tackling the problem. One of the biggest problems that we face and you touched on it, is that near 100% anonymity that criminals enjoy operating in the network environment, that ability to conduct transactions, that ability to essentially go unnoticed for long periods of time, without anyone knowing your true identity, creates a huge obstacle for law enforcement, but the good thing is that frankly it's something that we're very good at in terms of identifying whose on the other end of the keyboard, but it takes a lot of work. >> You know I'm old enough to have some friends that have graduated from you know, criminal justice majors when I was in college, I was a CS major, they went DEA, FBI, so a lot of friends and it's evolved a lot from having that branch office >> Yes. >> Focus, you now have digital, and one comment that always kind of resonated from my friends that were in the law enforcement area goes, John it's like putting the puzzle together, and you got to get the puzzle pieces to put it all together >> Right. >> Now you have a sea of puzzle pieces, it's almost like a three dimensional puzzle, because you have to get the data, you got to understand the landscape now and multiple dimensions >> Right. >> That you just mentioned. How do you guys keep up with putting that puzzle together, before it changes? >> We get a lot of help, right, so what we're used to doing is using the FBI'S special agent as the main tool of our investigations, in the cyber world we've had to add some pieces to that, not only is there specific training now for cyber agents, those agents that are charged with investigating intrusions, we have computer scientists, we have data analysts, we have folks that we bring to bear, in any one particular investigation, who add talents and tools that every, you know it's like, everyone is at the table on these investigations bringing different aspects of the investigation together and it is like you said, multiple data points and as any investigation is, lots of pieces being brought together to tell a story that we ultimately have to, you know convince the judge of, in terms of judge and a jury sometimes, of the validity of what it is that we've found. >> So timing is very important as well. >> Timing's huge, as we like to say, we want to be involved in intrusion matters as quickly, and as often as we can. Part of the challenge that we face is that there's a little bit of tug and pull between us and the private sector, and we aren't always brought in as early in a breach investigation as we would like to be, and those, it's valuable, valuable minutes, valuable days that are lost sometimes in that, in that transactional process. >> I interviewed Christine Halverson, I don't even, I'm sorry I didn't interview her, I watched her give a presentation amazon reinvent last week, she gave a key, one of the key notes during a public sector summit, Teresa Carlson's breakfast that she had, and she said something very fascinating she said, we are in a data crisis at the FBI, meaning that they have to put the puzzle pieces together and get it done quick, it was something along those lines, but she said that the FBI has been very progressive in adopting new technology, you guys are moving very very fast and she said she's excited by that but she said we need the data, whether that's being called in quickly, >> Right. >> And or getting access to other data bases, right, so it's like the data is out there, so you guys need access to that, how do you guys, how do you, how's the FBI evolving with that, architectural cloud and what not, and how are you enabling the tools for the field agents, and the people in the trenches? >> So the data analytics is an interesting area to dive deeply into, I mean we face the same challenges as any private organization, in terms of how we intake the data, how the data's organized, how it is that we then retrieve the data, look at it, how it relates to the different data points relate to one another, we face all of those same challenges and we have the added challenge, I think in the environment that we're in, in terms of how we're able to adopt private sector products that are out there that might meet our needs, I mean I've been in government now for over 30 years, it's a bit of a challenge being able to acquire the types of platforms and products that you, that you would want to have as quickly as you would like to have them, but eventually we do get down those roads, we do adopt platforms that are useful to us, and again like everyone else, we're trying to move as quickly as we possibly can in this environment to keep up with the bad guys. >> And you guys do a great job moving those antiquated inadequate systems to more real time, >> We try. >> State of the art. >> We try. >> So I interviewed General Keith Alexander once, and we talked about identity and private sector, public sector collaboration. Can you share your thoughts on that, because this is something that's become a bigger trend recently in the past five to 10 years, past three years in particular where it's a sharing culture it's not just, well I'm not going to call the FBI they're going to come in, it's no no we're going to bring them in early, whether it's a breach you think, or someone hiding, I mean the Marriot thing they didn't even know they were there! So, you guys are now spending more time collaborating with the enterprises and businesses, how has that changed your approach, your posture, how you look at the data, can you give some insight into that? >> Yeah so I mean a lot of it's about relationship building, I will tell you that, in the San Francisco division one of the priorities we have within our cyber branch, is to ensure that we have a certain level of rapport, not just with the big tech giants in the valley, but also with the medium size enterprises and the small enterprises, we spend a fair amount of time putting ourselves in front of the C-Suites, boards of directors and talking to them about one, what capabilities the FBI brings to the table, we open the lines of communication with them and we build a rapport, in such a way that it allows them the trust to then bring problems to us and we then begin an exchange of information. The point you made about, public, private collaboration, it's an absolute must, there's no way we get through this tough period that we're in, without both sides sitting down at the table, establishing some trust, and then moving together to solve these problems. >> The other thing I'd observe and you may or may not want to comment on this, love to see if you would comment, but the notion of agility, especially with data and systems and cloud computing. CIA, the Department of Defense, are moving to systems that can be as reactive and accurate as possible, and this is a changing of relationship to the suppliers! >> Right. >> You know, and the government, oh multiple suppliers, we got to do five different things, >> Right. >> But if the systems don't talk to each other, you guys can't be fast. This is seat change and the mindset. >> The whole government I think is beginning to understand that in this world, technology, we need to be much more agile in terms of our adoption of new products that will allow us to combat crime, and frankly the threat from the national security sector that we're responsible for responding to. So we understand that there's a certain level of agility historically not present, that we need to move the marker to get towards. >> Let me ask you a question, does the FBI have an app store? (John laughs) >> So what, we have secured telephones that we utilize and we certainly have an approved list of apps that we're allowed to have on our phones, so we do. The short answer to that is yes, it's a very truncated list of apps that we have available to us, but they're helpful. >> Well we were joking. Well we were joking at reinvent and all these cloud conferences because, the developer now, building a right new software apps is faster, so this whole dev ops ethos of cloud computing >> Secure DevOps yeah. >> And so secure DevOps is really interesting because now you don't have to, you can free up the data in the infrastructure and yes infrastructure is code, your going to see a renaissance of new applications, so the joke was, you know you made it when you have an app store inside the FBI, there's an app for that. Okay, final question for you, as you guys do your thing and I know you get called in a lot to mentor and also collaborate with enterprises, what's your advice on the info sec landscape? Do you talk to CSO's and CXO's, CSO's in particular are under a lot of pressure, >> Right. >> Board level kind of responsibility, not part of IT anymore they are now a critical piece of building out these teams, what's your advice to them in terms of either, whether there's observation's our best practice that you've seen, that they can think about? >> So a couple of the points that I typically hit on in my talks, that I hit on today, one is this idea of looking at cyber security as an enterprise risk which you just talked about. We need to get away from the old school thought process of cyber being an IT function, right? It's an enterprise risk, it needs to be talked about in terms of risk, the language of risk management, with the C-Suite, with the boards of directors, because when you talk in a language of the likelihood of an event happening, the impact to the organization and what that means in terms of, daily revenue, daily dollars to the business, that's a language that business owners and business leaders understand. So the oweness is on information security leaders to adopt this language, so that we can communicate our needs to our colleagues in the C-Suite and the boards of directors. It's a seat change for information security professionals because this is not a language that they are typically used to speaking. >> And they got to level up there too because this is the reality. >> Absolutely. >> Alright, final final question, what's the most exciting thing that you're working on and or you're seeing happening around you, that you get up in the morning and say, man I'm so excited to work on that. Or trend or technology. >> I'll tell you when you work for an organization like the FBI, which I've done for almost 22 years, at the end of the day it's getting exposure to people who are engaged in trying to achieve the FBI's mission on a day to day basis and at the end of the day, I don't care how much technology you have around you, I don't care how much policy you have in place, having the right people in place who are dedicated to what we're trying to accomplish, that's the thing I get the most juice out of on a day to day basis, we get to actually, in this portion of my career, really work with some of the most talented people that the FBI has. >> And their being empowered more than ever right now in this technology >> Absolutely. >> M.K. Palmore thanks for coming on theCUBE appreciate it. Head of the FBI cyber security in San Francisco. It's theCUBE here in Las Vegas at the Chandelier Bar in the Cosmopolitan, breaking it down. Part of Open Systems private event, they just had a lot of stuff going on with Gardner, lot of events happening here in Vegas, I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. (modern music)

>> Live from Toronto, Canada, it's theCUBE, covering Global Cloud and Block Chain Summit 2018. Brought to you by theCUBE. >> Hello everyone, welcome back to theCUBE live coverage in Toronto for the Block Chain-Cloud Convergence Show. This is the Global Cloud Block Chain Summit part of the Futurist Event that's going on the next two days after this. Our next guest is Kesem Frank, AION co-founder and CEO of MavenNet. Doing a lot of work in the enterprise and also block chain space around the infrastructure, making it really interoperable. Of course, Jenna Pilgrim, co-founder and COO of a new opportunity called Network Effects. Welcome to the cube, thanks for joining us. >> Thanks, thanks for having us. >> Thanks, John. >> You guys were just on a panel, The Real World Applications of Block Chain. IBM was on it, which, been doing a lot of work there. This is real world, low hanging fruit, block chain, everyone's pretty excited about. A lot of people get it, and some don't. Some are learning. So you've got the believers, the I want to believe, and then the nonbelievers. Let's talk about the I want to believe and the believers in block chain. Some real world applications going on. As it's evolving, so there's evolution of the standards, technology, but people are putting it to use. What's going on in the sector around some of the real world cases you guys talked about? >> I think we're seeing a lot of collaboration as far as real world applications go, because I think people are sort of starting to understand that if a distributed network is going to work or is going to be secure, it needs diversity and it needs mass scale. If lots of different parties can work together, then they can actually form a community that's really working. As far as real world applications, there's some really interesting one as far as supply chain. Kathryn Harrison at IBM talked about their pilot about shipping, bringing together the global supply chain of distribution. There's a bunch of interesting ones about food providence and bringing together different parties just to make sure that people know what they're eating and that they are able to keep themselves safe, so I think those are two definitely interesting ones. >> Kesem, block chain, supply chain, value chains, these are kind of key words that mean something together. >> Right. >> Making things work in a new way, making things more efficient, seems to be a trend. You're kind of in that world. Is it efficient? (laughing) How's the tech working? What are some of the core threshold issues that people have to get over? >> So you know, John, that's exactly the question to ask. A lot of folks out there are looking at block chain and the promise it represents, and the one big question that keeps echoing over and over is when is this going mainstream? When are we going to see something, a domain, a use case, that is actually natively on a block chain? I think that, essentially, we kind of owe it to ourselves and to everyone that cares about this stuff to ask what's working today, August 2018 and what is still kind of pending? I co-founded a project called AION. For us, interoperability is really one of the key facets that you need to be able to solve for to make block chains real. And again, here's the 60 second argument. If you're going to grow all these solutions that are centric around the use case, they solve for different pinpoints and different stakeholders care about them. They don't really create the cohesive kind of ecosystem until they can all talk to each other, and then you have to ask yourself is the original hypothesis where it's going to be one main net, one chain that's going to rule them all, and everybody gets to play on it and everybody deploys their Dapps on stuff like Fabric or R3 or Ethereum, or whatever it might be. That is absolutely not the way we're seeing enterprise actually shaping into this domain of block chain. What we're seeing is big consortiums that already have value, tangible today, out of doing stuff on chain, and the biggest thing to solve is how do I take, to Jenna's point around supply chain or food providence, whatever it is, how do I actually open it so I can now start writing insurance events, payment events, banking, underwriting, auditing, regulation? There's this gigantic ecosystem that needs to be enabled, and again we are actively saying it's not going to be by an organic model where you and I do everything on top of a single solution. There will be a multitude of solutions, and what we need to solve for is how do we convert them from disparate islands that don't talk to each other into a cohesive ecosystem? >> This is a great point. We were talking on our intro, and we talked last night on our panel, about standards. If you look at all the major inflection points where wealth was created and value was created around innovation and entrepreneurship and industry inflection points, there's always some sort of standard thing that happened. >> Right. >> Whether it's the OSI model during the early days of the internet to certain protocols that made things happen with the internet. Here, it's interesting because if you have one chain and rule the world, it's got to be up and running. >> Yeah. >> It's not. There's no one thing yet, so I see that trend the cloud has, private cloud, public cloud, but public cloud was first but people had data centers. >> Right. >> Both not compatible, now the trend is multi-cloud. You can almost connect the dots of saying multi-chain >> Right. >> Might be a big trend. >> Right. >> This is kind of what you're teasing out here. >> That's exactly what we're about, and I think it's very interesting, the point you're making about dissimilarities between the two domains. We are in a cloud convention, and to me it means two things. One, we absolutely see the mainstream people, the mainstream players in industry, starting to take this seriously. It used to be a completely disparate world where you guys are a bunch of crazies with your Bitcoin and ether and what not. They're definitely taking this seriously now. The second thing, when you think of cloud as a model, how cloud evolved, we used to have these conversations around are you crazy, you're telling me that my data is not going to be on premise? >> It's not secure, now it's the most secure. >> Oh my God! It's in the cloud, what's a cloud? (laughing) You think of the progression model that was applicable back then, right? 10 years, 15 years back, where we started privately and we tell them OK, we'll take this side step of hybrid and then fully public. Took them a while, took them almost 20 years to get their heads around it. >> There's no one trajectory. What's interesting about block chain and crypto with token economics, there's no one trend you can map an analog to, you can't say this is going to be like this trend of the past. It's almost developing it's own kind of trajectory. A lot of organic community involvement. Different tech involvement. >> Totally. >> Different engineering mindsets coming together. You're seeing an engineering-led culture big time going on. That's propelling it up to the conversations of let's lay down the pipes, let's start running apps, but I'll do it within a two year window (laughing). >> I think the big thing to understand about that is yes, you need a whole host of developer talent to build distributed systems, but at the end of the day those systems still have to be used by people. They still have to be used by society, you still have to understand how to talk to your chief executives about what's happening within your company or what your tech teams are doing. There's a growing need for marketers, for PR people, for people who speak, I don't want to say plain English, but people who understand how-- >> Translate it to the real world. >> Yeah, they need to translate it, and how to bridge the gap between legacy systems and how do you take what you were doing before and transform it to a distributed ledger system? How do you do that without just paving the cow path? >> It's interesting, it's almost intoxicating, 'cause you got two elements that get people excited. You got the token economics, which gets people to go, "Whoa," the economics and the liquidity of money and/or value creation capture equations completely changing some of the business model stuff, which could be translated to software and Dapps and software general stuff or SaaS, et cetera. Then you got the plumbing or the networking side of it where things like latency, interoperability, absolutely matter, so with all that going on in real time, it's kind of happening at 30,000 feet and trying to change the airplane engine out. People are failing, and so there's some false promises, there's also false hopes that have not been achieved, so this clouds up the real big picture which is this is an innovative environment. We're seeing that trend. But when you get to the end of the day, what are people working on, to me, is the tell sign. Kesem, what's your project, talk about AION and the work you're doing, specifically give some examples of some of the things that you're doing in the trenches. >> Sure. >> What are you trying to solve, what are some examples you're running into and how does that relate to how things might evolve going forward? >> Sure, so there is a multitude of different problems that we work on but if you want to stick just to the fundamentals? Let's take one gigantic issue that everyone's kind of tackling from different perspectives, let's talk about scale. Scale is, especially in block chains especially challenging just because of how the technology works. How decentralized can you get before you're faced with gigantic latencies and before transaction cost are kind of through the roof? When you think about it, that is all a result of how we kind of contemplate these early stage networks. It was always the one network that is going to scale to infinity. Absolutely not the way it's going to work out. So from my perspective, again, sticking to this one issue, if you could actually give me a decentralized rail that maintains consensus throughout two networks, I can now actually have two trusted kind of go-tos instead of always putting the full brunt of the throughput on one single network. For us, that's kind of a no brainer application to interoperability. If you could actually give me all these trusted networks that work in tandem, I could now start splicing throughputs across many different parallel kind of rails. Not to similar than how we can solve for super computing. We understood there is a limit on how fast can a single CPU go and we started going wide. >> That's an interesting point, I want to just double click on that for a second because if you think about it, why would I have multiple rails and multiple systems? Maybe the use cases are different for them. >> Correct. >> You don't want to have to pick one cloud or one chain to rule them all because it's not optimized. We saw that with monolithic systems and cloud is all about levels of granularity and micro service and micro everything, right? >> Correct. >> And I would also say that gets into a security issue as well, right? You're talking about multiple layers but you also will have multiple layers of permission. You'll have multiple layers of how much information someone can see and what I think is emerging, if data is the new oil, then what's emerging is for the first time we're now able to trust data that we do not own. For corporations who say, "I don't know to market to you "if I don't know everything about you." But at the end of the day, they want to be able to leverage your data but they don't need to secure it and I think that cybersecurity issue is a huge, huge thing that's definitely coming. >> I want to get both of your thoughts on this, because we were talking about this last night. We were riffing on the notion that with cloud compute and data really drove scale. So Amazon is a great example and their value now is things like Kinesis and Aurora, some of their fastest growing services. You got SageMaker, probably will be announced at re:Invent coming up as the fastest growing service, right now it's Aurora. All data concepts. So the dataization really made cloud, great. >> True. >> Okay what's the analog for crypto and block chain? Tokenization is an interesting concept. There's almost an extension of cloud where you're saying, hey, with tokenization, the tokenization phase, how do you explain that to a common person? You say, is token going to be the token and the money aspect of and the economics the killer app? How's it transverse the infrastructures, plural? >> Yeah, or is the wallet going to be the browser? Or how are all of these things happening? >> How do you make sense of this? What's your reaction to that trend? >> So I actually get excited when I think about what token, on the most profound level, actually means. When you kind of think of where value happens in the context of these gigantic enterprises, right? You think of Apple, Amazon, Google, Facebook, any of them, and you kind of think of what the product is, it's all about the data and it's all about how do you convince people to give up data so they can monetize on it. And then you have two distinct, like literally gigantic groups of stakeholders at play. You have the users, that essentially get something free, right? I get to post on Facebook or I get to write an e-mail on Gmail. Then you have the stakeholders that actually extract all that value from my activities. A token, I think most profoundly represents, how do we actually get to a unified group where the user himself is the stakeholder that gets to extract the data? And again, the proposition is pretty straightforward. The more you use a network and the more the network becomes valuable and grows, the more value the token that drives at it. >> So it changes the value capture equation? >> Correct, different model altogether. >> The value creators get to capture the value and obviously network effects plays a big part in this? >> Yes. >> Which is your wheelhouse. (laughing) >> Yeah, definitely. I think it really comes down to core principles. Now you're able to really get down, to what Kesem was talking about, about when you're designing a token or if you're designing an incentive mechanism, you're really going down to the sort of deep game theory of why people do specific things and if we can financially incentivize people to do good rather than punish them or fine them for doing bad then we can actually create value for everyone. We're designing a new economy that now has the ability to propel itself in a fair and prosperous way, if done correctly, obviously that's the disclaimer afterwards, but. >> I love what you're saying there because if you look at collective intelligence a lot of the AI concepts came around from collective intelligence, predictive analytics, prescriptive analytics all came around using data to create value. I always talk about fake news because we have a cloud of media business that's kind of tokenized now but fake news it two things, it's payload, fake news, the fake content and then the infrastructure dynamics that they arbitraged, with network effects. They targeted specific people, fake payload, but the distribution was a network effect. Again, this was the perverse incentive that no one was monitoring, there was no- >> Well and I think in that case, yes there is news that is inherently false information but then there's also a whole spectrum of trueness, if you want to call it that so now we have this technology that allows us to overlay on top of that and say, "Well what is the providence of my information?" And with different layers of block chain systems you're actually able to prove the providence of your information without exposing the user's privacy and without exposing the whole supply chain of the media because there's like media buyers, go through all kinds of hands. >> And we believe the answer to fake news, frankly, is data access, collective intelligence and something like a block chain where you have incentive systems to filter out the fake news. >> Totally. >> Exactly. >> Reputation systems, these things are not new concepts. >> It's all about stake at the end of the day, right? It's how do you keep a stakeholder accountable for their action? You need backing so I think we're definitely on the same page. >> I love, I could talk about fake news all day because we think we can solve that with our CUBEcoin token coming out soon. I want to shift gears and talk about some of the examples we've seen with cloud. >> Sure. >> And try to map that to some navigation for people in how to get through the block chain token world. One of the key things about the cloud was something they called shadow IT. Shadow IT was people who said, hey, you know what? I could just put my credit card down and move this non core thing out in this cloud and prove to my boss, show them, not pitch 'em on the Power Point deck, to say look it, I just did this for that cost in this timeframe, and that started around 2009/2010 timeframe, the early digerati or the clouderati kind of did that but around 2012 it became, wow, this shadow IT is actually R and D practice. >> Mm-hmm. >> Right. >> You started to see that now, so the question that we see for people evaluating in the enterprise is how do you judge what's a good project? Certainly people are kicking the tires and doing a little bit, I won't call it shadow IT, but they're taking on some projects as you were talking about on the panel. How should they, the enterprises in general, the large companies, start thinking about how to enable a shadow IT-like dynamic and how should they evaluate the kind of projects? I think that's an area people just don't know what to look for. Your thoughts? >> I want to add a premise to that, because I think that's absolutely the right question to ask. We also need to add the why. Why should we, as people that do native crypto currency, even care about enterprises? A lot of people kind of theorized when Bitcoin was created to say it was anti institutional is an understatement, right? Aren't we meant to kill enterprise? The thing is, I don't think it's going to be a big bang. I don't think it's going be we wake up and nobody's using banking anymore or nobody's using the traditional healthcare or government and you know whatever insurance policies. We care about block chain in the context of enterprise because we think block chain is a fundamentally better model of doing things. It kind of does away with the black box where I need to be in business, I need to blindly trust you and it introduces a much more transparent and democratic model of doing things. We absolutely want to introduce and make block chain mainstream because that's important for us. When you think of how we do it, to your question, AION is all about interoperability, right? We create a solution that helps scale and helps different networks, decentralized networks, communicate to each other. What we also do with MavenNet, the company I run, is essentially make that enterprise friendly. It's extremely hard to do adoption and implementation within an enterprise, they're very immune to change. >> Antibodies as they say. >> Oh. >> The antibodies to innovation, they kill innovation. >> Totally, so going back to your original question, it all starts with a P and L. If somebody is going to authorize, you know, an actual production system in enterprise for block chain, it needs to create a tangible value, a tangible return, quickly and that's the key. The model that actually scales is you start by flushing out inefficiency plate. You show the enterprise how you could actually achieve, I don't know 20%/30%, that's the order of magnitude that they care about, efficiency by moving some part of your value chain on top of a block chain. >> It has to have an order of magnitude difference or so. I mean cloud was a great example, too, it changes the operating model. >> Yeah. >> They achieve what they wanted to achieve faster and more efficiently and operated it differently. >> Correct. >> And people were starting at it like a three headed monster like what is this thing, right? The cloud thing. And throwing all kinds of fud out there, but ultimately at the end of the day, it's a new operating model for the same thing that they're trying to do with the old stuff. >> Mm-hmm. >> I mean, it's almost that simple. >> Yeah, I think in some cases you need to really, in my previous life at the Block Chain Research Institute, we encouraged a lot of our clients to really take a step back and say, well will I actually, A, will I have this problem in eight years or seven years or 20 years or 50 years, if we're really fundamentally building a new financial system or a new way of doing things that is fundamentally different? Are we building it on old technology? We need to make sure that, and that's why you've seen banks were the first in the door to say, "Yeah, payments, that sounds great, that sounds great." But the real applications that we're seeing from banks are in loyalty, they're in AMLKYC, they're in the sort of fringe operations. Something like payments is going to take a really long time to push through because of those legacy systems because payments is the fundamentals of what banks do. >> This is an interesting point, I want to get your thoughts to end the segment because I think one of the things that we've certainly seen with cloud that over the generational shifts that have happened, the timeframe for innovation is getting shorter and shorter, so timeframe is critical so if the communities are fumbling around hitting that time to value, it seems to be trending to faster and we don't want to hear slower because these systems are inadequate, they're antiquated. >> Mm-hmm. >> These are the systems that are disrupted so the timing of, whether it's standards, or interoperability or business models, operating models, they got to be faster. >> Yeah. >> That's the table stakes. >> I think it all comes down to collaborative governance. >> People have to figure out block chain faster. >> Yeah. >> What's holding us back? Or what's accelerating us? What's the key for the community at large from the engineering community and the business community to make it go faster? Your thoughts? >> Right, so I think we're still searching for the next killer app. If Bitcoin is the reason we're all sitting here today and I profoundly believe that. >> Yeah. >> What is the next thing that drives change on a global scale? That's kind of what we're trying, collectively as an industry, to figure out. Sure, many kind of roadblocks on the way. Some of them educational, perceptional, regulation, technology, but the next big wave that's going to accelerate us to the next ten years of block chain is that next killer app. Organizations such as myself, Jenna, that's our day job, we wake up and that's what we do. >> I mean I've always said, and Dr. Wong, who's the founder of Alibaba Cloud agreed with me, I've been saying that the TCPIP protocol, that standard really enabled a lot of interoperability and created lots of diverse value up the stacks of the OSI model, Open Systems Interconnect, seven layer model, actually never got standardized. It's kind of stopped at TCPIP and that was good, everyone snapped at the line, that created massive value. >> But that's a collaborative governance thing. That's people coming together and saying that these are the standards that we wish to adhere to. >> We need the moment right now. >> Yeah, so you see organizations like the Enterprise Ethereum Alliance coming out with a prospective list of standards that they think the community should adhere here. You know you have the ERC20 standard, you have all these different organizations, the World Economic Forum is playing a role in that and the UN is playing a role, especially when it comes to identity and those kind of really big, societal issues but I think that it comes down to that everyone plays a role that I'm doing my best, I think it's going to be somewhere in the realm of data so that's where I've chosen to sort of make my course. >> I think this is a good conversation to have, and I think we could continue it. I mean, I read on Medium, everyone's reading these fat protocols, thin protocols but at the end of the day what does that matter if there's no like scale? >> Yeah. >> You can have all the fat protocols you want, more of a land grab I would say but there's certainly models but is that subordinate or is that the cart before the horse? This is the conversation I think is in the hallways. >> Totally agree, totally agreed. >> Guys, thanks so much for coming on theCUBE, really appreciate it. Breaking down real world applications of block chain we're at the Global Cloud and Block Chain Summit. It's an inaugural event and think it's going to be the kind of format we're going to see more of, cloud and block chain coming together. Collision course or is it going to come in nicely and land together and work together? We'll see, of course theCUBE's covering it. Thanks for watching. Stay with us for more all day coverage. Part of the Futurist Conference coming up the next two days. We're in Toronto, we'll be back with more after this short break. (theCUBE theme music)

>> Announcer: Live from Boston Massachusets it's The Cube covering Red Hat Summit 2017. Brought to you by Red Hat. >> Welcome back to The Cubes coverage of the Red Hat Summit, I'm your host Rebecca Knight, along with my cohost Stu Miniman. We are joined by Jim Wasko, he is the vice president of Open Systems at IBM. Thanks so much for joining us. >> Thanks for having me. >> So, before we get into the new ways in which IBM and Red Hat are working together, give us a little history on the IBM, Red Hat alliance and contextualize things for us. >> Oh sure, sure, so we started with Linux back in the very late '90's as a strategic initiative for IBM, and so Red Hat was one of the key players at that time. We worked with other Linux vendors who no longer exist. Linux Care was one of the companies we worked with, Mandrake, things along those lines. But Red Hat has been a constant through all of that. So we started in the very early days with Red Hat and we had an X86 line at the time, and then as well as Power NZ, and even in the very early days, we had ports of Red Hat running on IBM, all of IBM's hardware. >> And the alliance is going strong today? >> Yes it is, yes it is. So we have that long history and then as Red Hat transformed as a company into their enterprise software and REL in particular, that really matured, as far as our relationship was concerned, and I'm the engineering VP with Red Hat, and we just had a very strong collaborative relationship. We know how to work upstream, they obviously work very well upstream. We've worked in the Fedora Project, as a staging area for our platforms and so, yeah, we've known each other very well. I've been working on Linux at IBM since November of 2000. >> Jim, so IBM, long history with Open Source, I remember when it was the billion dollars invested in Linux. We covered on The Cube when Power became Open Power. Companies like Google endorsing Open Power. Bring us up to speed as to Open Power, how that fits with what you're doing with Red Hat and what you're talking about on the show here. >> Oh yeah, so Open Power was really about opening up hardware architecture as well as the operating system and firmware. And so, as that's progressed Red Hat has also joined in that Open Power initiative. If you look at when we started, just a small group of companies kicked it off, and today we're over 300 companies, including Red Hat as a part of Open Power foundation. They're also board members, so as a key partner in strategic partner of ours, they've recognized that it's an ecosystem that is worth participating in, because it's very disruptive, and they've been very quick to join us. >> That's good, we've talked to Jim Lighthurst about how they choose and they look for communities that are going to do good things for the industry, for the world, for the users, so, it's a nice endorsement to have Red Hat participate, I would think. >> Oh, it is, they don't enter into anything lightly. And so, their participation really is a signal, I think, in the marketplace, that this is a good strategic initiative for the industry. >> Where do you see as the biggest opportunities for growth, going forward. >> Opportunities for growth, there's quite a few. A lot of people don't realize that Linux is really the underlying engine for so many things that we do in the technology world. It's everything from embedded into the automotive industry, if you've got Onboard computer, which most new cars do, 80% of those are Linux. If you talked about web serving, websites, front ends, it's Linux, you know. I know with my mom, she's like "What do you work on?" and I say Linux you know, and she's like "Is that like Windows?" and I'm like "No." And then I tell her, you know Mom you've used it, probably a dozen times today, and then I give her examples. And so, all the new innovation tends to happen on Linux. If we look at HyperLedger, and Blockchain in particular, good example, that's one that takes a lot of collaboration, a lot of coordination if it's going to have a meaningful impact on the world. And so, it starts with Linux as foundation to it. So, any of those new technologies, if you look at what we're doing with quantum computing for example, it takes a traditional computer to feed it, and a tradition computer for the output, and we don't have time to go into details behind that but, Linux fed, as a part of it, because really that's where the innovation is taking place. >> Jim, could you expand a little bit more on the Hyperledger and Blockchain piece? A lot of people still, I think they understand BitCoin and digital currency there, but it's really some of the distributed and open source capabilities that these technologies deliver to the market, have some interest and use cases, what's the update on that? >> Oh that's a good question. So, a lot of people think of BitCoin and that says a very limited use case. As we look at Hyperledger, we notice that it could be applied in so many more ways than just a financial kind of way. Where we've done, it is logistics, and supply chain, we've implemented it at IBM for our supply chain and we've taken data from Weather.com, company that we've acquired, and we use that for our logistics for end of quarter for example. So that's something that was easier for us to implement, because it's all within our company. But then we are expanding that through partners. So that's an example where you could do supply chain logistics, you could do financials. But really, in order for that to work 'cause it's a distributed ledger, you need everybody in the ecosystem to participate. It can't be one company, can't be two companies. And so, that's why very early on we recognized we should jointly start up a project that the Linux Foundation, called Hyperledger, to look at what's the best and how could we all collaborate because we're all going to benefit from it, and it will be transformative. >> So what are you doing there, because as you said, these do present big challenges because there has to buy in from everyone? >> Yeah so if I look at the Hyperledger project specifically at the Linux Foundation, we've got customers of ours like JPMC for example, founding member and participant, we've got a distribution partners, we've got technology partners all there and so we contributed early code. Stuff we'd done in research, as kind of like a building block. And then we have members, both from research and product development side of the house, that are constantly working in that upstream community on the source code. >> And continually contributing, and okay... >> Yeah, well continually contributing, that's on the technology side. On the business side we're doing early proof of concepts, so we worked early with a company called Everledger that looks at the history of diamonds and tracks them beginning to end, and the ultimate goal of that is to eliminate blood diamonds from the marketplace and so if you know, it's also a very good market to begin because it's a limited set of players. So you can implement the technology, you can do the business processes behind it and then demonstrate the value. So that's an early project. Most of the financial institutions are doing stuff, whether it's stock trading or what have you. And so we're doing early proof of concept, so we're taking both technology and business, you marry 'em together as Jim Whitehurst said the other day you know, what's the minimal viable product, lets get that out there, lets try it out, lets learn. >> Release early release often. >> Yes, and then modify quickly, don't start with something you think is overly baked, and find that you have to shelf it in order to kind of back track and make corrections. >> And what is like to mesh those two cultures, the technology and the business? I mean, do you find that there is a clash? >> We have not. Now at IBM it was not a simple transition back in the late '90's. There were people that thought Open Source would be just a flash in the pan, and here we are so many years later, that's not true. And so early on, like I said, there were a lot of internal kind of debates, but that debate is long since settled, so we don't have that. And if you look across our different business divisions, even within our company, whether its Cloud, whether it's Cognitive, whether it's systems business, all use Open Source. Whether we contribute everything externally and we're using third party packaged, or we consume it ourselves. And we see that as happening across industry, even with out clients. Some that you might think are very traditional, they recognize that's where the innovation is taking place. And so, you always look at balancing is this viable, is that healthy? Or is still the commercially available stuff the better stuff? Just a quick story, I had a development team and we were doing Agile and we needed a tool to do to track our sprints and everything like that, and so, all of my developers were Open Source developers, and so that's their bias. If we're going to use software, it has to be Open Source, they went and evaluated a couple projects and they found Open Source software that had been abandoned, they were smart enough to recognize we also acquired a company called Rational, and Rational Team Concert does this, but it's proprietary. And so they initially resisted it, but then they looked at these Open Source project and saw, if we picked up that code, we maintain it forever, and we're alone. That is as worthless, as it can be, because there's no benefit. Doing Open Source, where you have multiple people contributing, you give an added benefit. So they went with our in house stuff, Rational Team Concert. Just showed the maturity of the team that even though they think Open Source is really the best thing in life, you've got to balance the business with it. >> Jim, so we look at the adoption of Open Source, it took many years to mature. Today, you talk about things like Cognitive, it's racing so fast, give us a little bit of look forward, you know, what's changing your space? What are you looking forward to? What would we expect to see from you by the time we come back next year? >> Sure, so a lot of what you've heard here at the conference so a lot of things that we're doing, are often offered in a Cloud platform, or as a hosted service, or as a service. So, for example, we do have Blockchain as a service available today. And it's running the back end is on mainframe cloud, for example, running Linux. Other examples of that, looking at new applications for quantum computing. Well that requires severengic freezing in order to keep those cubits alive. And so that's a hosted thing, and we actually have that available online, people can use that today. So I think that you're going to see a lot of early access, even for commercial applications. Early access so people can try it, and then based on their business model, like we've heard from clients this week, sometimes they'll need it on prem, and for various business reasons, and other times they can do it on the cloud and we'll be able to provide that. But we give them early access via cloud and as a service. And I think that's what you're going to see a lot in the industry. >> And it's this hybrid mix, as you said, some on prem, some off prem, okay. >> Jim: Yes. >> Well Jim, thanks so much for joining us, we really appreciate you sitting down with us. >> You're welcome, and thanks for your time. >> I'm Rebecca Knight, for Stu Miniman, we'll have more from the Red Hat Summit after this. (upbeat electronic music)

(calm and uplifting music) (moves into soft and soothing music) >> Announcer: Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE. Covering Oracle Modern Customer Experience 2017. Brought to you by Oracle. (chill and calm electronic music) >> Hey, welcome back everyone. We are live here at the Mandalay Bay in Las Vegas for theCUBE's special coverage of Oracle's marketing clouds event called Modern CX for Modern Customer Experience. I'm John Furrier, founder of SiliconANGLE, with Peter Burris, head of research at wikibon.com. This is our wrap up of day one. We've got day two coverage tomorrow. Peter, we saw some great news from Oracle on stage. I'll say modernizing their platform, the positioning, certainly, how they're packaging the offering of a platform with the focus of apps, with the additive concept of adaptive intelligence, which gives the notion of moving from batch to realtime, data in motion, and then a series of other enhancements going on. And the guests we talked to have been phenomenal, but what's coming out of this, at least in my mind, I would love to get your reaction to today, is data. Data is the key, and it's clear that Oracle is differentiating with their data. They have a database. They're now bringing their Cloud Suite concept to marketing and extending that out. Interesting. AI is in there, they got some chatbots, so some sizzle, but the steak is the data. So you got the sizzle and you got the steak. >> Well, we heard, you're absolutely right, John. We heard today a lot, and I think this is a terminology that we're going to hear more frequently, is this notion of first person data versus third person data. Where first person data is the data that's being generated by the business and the business's applications and third person data being data that's generated by kind of the noise that's happening in a lot of other people's first person data. And I think that's going to be one of the biggest challenges in the industry. And Oracle has an inside track on a lot of that first person data because a lot of people are big time Oracle customers for big time operational acts, applications that are today delivering big time revenue into the business. >> In the spirit of marketing speak at these events you hear things, "It's outcomes, digital transmissions. "It's all about the outcomes." Agreed, that's standard, we hear that. But here we're seeing something for the first time. You identified it in one of our interviews with Jack Horowitz, which had 150 milliseconds, it's a speeds and feeds game. So Oracle's premise, you pointed out, I'd like to get deeper on this, because this is about not moving the data around if you don't have to. >> Yeah, yeah. >> This is interesting. >> This is a centerpiece of Wikibon's research right now, is that if you start with a proposition that we increasingly through digital transformation are now talking about how we're going to use data to differentiate business, then we need to think about what does it mean to design business, design business activities, design customer promises around the availability of data or the desire to get more data. And data has a physical element. Moving data around takes time and it generates cost, and we have to be very, very careful about what that means, let alone some of the legal and privacy issues. So we think that there's two things that all businesses are going to have to think about, the relationship between data and time. Number one, Can I serve up the right response, the right business action, faster than my competitors, which is going to matter, and number two is can I refine and improve the quality of my models that I'm using to serve things up faster than my competitors. So it's a cycle time on what the customer needs right now, but it's also a strategic cycle time in how I improve the quality of the models that I'm using to run my business. >> What's also interesting is some things that, again that you're doing on the research side, that I think plays into the conversations and the content and conversations here at Oracle's Modern CX event is the notion of the business value of digital. And I think, and I want to get your reaction to this because this is some insight that I saw this morning through my interviews, is that there are jump in points for companies starting this transformation. Some are more advanced than others, some are at the beginning, some are in kindergarten, some are in college, some are graduated, and so on and so forth. But the key is, you're seeing an Agile mindset. That was a term that was here, we had the Agile Marketer, the author of The Agile Marketer, here on our-- Roland Smart, who wrote the book The Agile Marketer. But Agile can be applied because technology's now everywhere. But with data and now software, you now have the ability to not only instrument, but also get value models from existing and new applications. >> Well let's bring it back to the fundamental point that you made up front, because it's the right one. None of this changes if you don't recognize these new sources of data, typically and increasingly, the customer being a new source, and what we can do with it. So go back to this notion of Agile. Agile works when you are, as we talked about in the interview, when you have three things going on. First off, the business has to be empirical, it has to acknowledge that these new sources of information are useful. You have to be willing to iterate. Which means you have to sometimes recognize you're going to fail, and not kill people who fail as long as they do it quickly. And then you have to be opportunistic. When you find a new way of doing things, you got to go after it as hard as you possibly can. >> And verify it, understand it, and then double down on it. >> Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, customer-centric and all the other stuff. But if you don't have those three things in place, you are not going to succeed in this new world. You have to be empirical, you have to be iterative, and you have to be opportunistic. Now take that, tie that back to some of the points that you were making. At the end of the day, we heard a lot of practitioners as well as a lot of Oracle executives, I don't want to say, be challenged to talk about the transformation or the transition, but sometimes they use different language. But when we push them, it all boiled down to, for the first time, our business acknowledged the value of data, and specifically customer data, in making better decisions. The roadmap always started with an acknowledgement of the role that data's going to play. >> And the pilots that we heard from Time Warner's CMO, Kristen O'Hara, pointed it out really brilliantly that she did pilots as a way to get started, but she had to show the proof. But not instant gratification, it was, "Okay, we'll give you some running room, "three feet and a cloud of dust, go see what happens. "Here's enough rope to hang yourself or be successful." But getting those proof points, to your point of iteration. You don't need to hit the home run right out of the gate. >> Absolutely not. In fact, typically you're not. But the idea is, you know, people talk about how frequently product launches fail. Products, you know, the old adage is it fails 80% of the time. We heard a couple of people talk about how other research firms have done research that suggests that 83 or 84% of leads are useless to salespeople. We're talking about very, very high failure rates here and just little changes, little improvements in the productivity of those activities, have enormous implications for the revenue that the business is able to generate and the cost that the business has to consume to generate those revenues. >> John: I want to get your reaction to-- Oh, go ahead, sorry. >> No, all I was going to say, it all starts with that fundamental observation that data is an asset that can be utilized differently within business. And that's what we believe is the essence of digital business. >> The other reaction I'd like to get your thoughts on is a word that we've been using on theCUBE that you had brought up here first in the conversation, empathy to users. And then we hear the word empowerment, they're calling about heroes is their theme, but it's really empowerment, right? Enabling people in the organization to leverage the data, identify new insights, be opportunistic as you said, and jump on these new ways of doing things. So that's a key piece. So with empathy for the users, which is the customer experience, and the empowerment for the people to make those things happen, you have the convergence of ad tech and mar-tech, marketing tech. Advertising tech and marketing tech, known as ad tech and mar-tech, coming together. One was very good at understanding collective intelligence for which best ad to serve where. Now the infrastructure's changing. Mar-tech is an ever-evolving and consolidating ecosystem, with winners and losers coming together and changing so the blender of ad tech and mar-tech is now becoming re-platformed for the enterprise. How does a practitioner who's looking at sources like Oracle and others grock this concept? Because they know about ads and that someone buys the ads, but also they have marketing systems in place and sales clouds. >> Well, I think, and again, it's this notion of hero and empowerment and enablement, all of them boil down to are we making our people better? And I think, in many respects, a way of thinking about this is the first thing we have to acknowledge is the data is really valuable. The second thing we have to acknowledge is that when we use data better, we make our people more successful. We make our people more valuable. We talk about the customer experience, well employee experience also matters because at the end of the day, those employees, and how we empower them and how we turn them into heroes, is going to have an enormous impact on the attitude that they take when they speak with customers, their facility at working with customers, the competency that they bring to the table, and the degree to which the customer sees them as a valuable resource. So in many respects, the way it all comes together is, we can look at all these systems, but are these systems, in fact, making the people that are really generating the value within the business more or less successful? And I think that's got to be a second touchstone that we have to keep coming back to. >> Some great interviews here this morning on day one. Got some great ones tomorrow, but two notables. I already mentioned the CMO, Kristen O'Hara, who was at Time Warner, great executive, made great change in how they're changing their business practices, as well as the financial outcome. But the other one was Jack Berkowitz. And we had an old school moment, we felt like a bunch of old dogs and historians, talking about the OSI, Open Systems Interconnect Model, seven layers of openness, of which it only went half way, stopped at TCPIP, but you can argue some other stuff was standardized. But, really, if you look at the historical perspective, it was really fun, because you can also learn, what you can learn about history as it relates to what's happening today. It's not always going to be the same, but you can learn from it. And that moment was this grocking of what happened with TCPIP as a standardization, coalescing moment. And it's not yet known in this industry what that will be. We sense it to be data. It's not clear yet how that's going to manifest itself. Or is it to you? >> Well here's what I'd say, John. I think you're right, kind of the history moment was geez, wasn't it interesting that TCPIP, the OSI stack, and they're related, they're not the same, obviously, but that it defined how a message, standards for moving messages around, now messages are data, but it's a specialized kind of a data. And then what we talked about is when we get to layer seven, it's going to be interesting to see what kind of standards are introduced, in other words, the presentation layer, or the application layer. What kind of standards are going to be introduced so that we can enfranchise multiple sources of cloud services together in new ways. Now Oracle appears to have an advantage here. Why? Because Oracle's one of those companies that can talk about end to end. And what Jack was saying, it goes back again to one of the first things we mentioned in this wrap, is that it's nice to have that end to end capability so you can look at it and say "When do we not have to move the data?" And a very powerful concept that Jack introduced is that Oracle's going to, you know, he threw the gauntlet down, and he said "We are going to help our customers "serve their customers within 150 milliseconds. "On a worldwide basis, "anywhere that customer is in the world, any device, "we're going to help our customers serve their customers "in 150 milliseconds." >> That means pulling data from any database, anywhere, first party, third party, all unified into one. >> But you can do it if and only if you don't have to move the data that much. And that's going to be one of the big challenges. Oracle's starting from an end to end perspective that may not be obviously cloud baked. Other people are starting with the cloud native perspective, but don't have that end to end capability. Who's going to win is going to be really interesting. And that 150 millisecond test is, I think, going to emerge as a crucial test in the industry about who's going to win. >> And we will be watching who will win because we're going to be covering it on SiliconANGLE.com and wikibon.com, which has got great research. Check out wikibon.com, it's subscription only. Join the membership there, it's really valuable data headed up by Peter. And, of course, theCUBE at siliconangle.tv is bringing you all the action. I'm John Furrier with Peter Burris, Day one here at the Mandalay Bay at the Oracle Modern CX, #ModernCX. Tweet us @theCUBE. Glad to chat with you. Stay tuned for tomorrow. Thanks for watching. (chill and calm electronic music) >> Announcer: Robert Herjavec >> Interviewer: People obviously know you from Shark Tank but the Herjavec group has been--