from the cube studios in palo alto in boston bringing you data-driven insights from the cube and etr this is breaking analysis with dave vellante you know we've often said that the next 10 years in cloud computing won't be like the last ten cloud has firmly planted its footprint on the other side of the chasm with the momentum of the entire multi-trillion dollar tech business behind it both sellers and buyers are leaning in by adopting cloud technologies and many are building their own value layers on top of cloud in the coming years we expect innovation will continue to coalesce around the three big u.s clouds plus alibaba in apac with the ecosystem building value on top of the hardware saw tooling provided by the hyperscalers now importantly we don't see this as a race to the bottom rather our expectation is that the large public cloud players will continue to take cost out of their platforms through innovation automation and integration while other cloud providers and the ecosystem including traditional companies that buy it mine opportunities in their respective markets as matt baker of dell is fond of saying this is not a zero sum game welcome to this week's wikibon cube insights powered by etr in this breaking analysis we'll update you on our latest projections in the cloud market we'll share some new etr survey data with some surprising nuggets and drill into this the important cloud database landscape first we want to take a look at what people are talking about in cloud and what's been in the recent news with the exception of alibaba all the large cloud players have reported earnings google continues to focus on growth at the expense of its profitability google reported that it's cloud business which includes applications like google workspace grew 45 percent to five and a half billion dollars but it had an operating loss of 890 billion now since thomas curion joined google to run its cloud business google has increased head count in its cloud business from 25 000 25 000 people now it's up to 40 000 in an effort to catch up to the two leaders but playing catch up is expensive now to put this into perspective let's go back to aws's revenue in q1 2018 when the company did 5.4 billion so almost exactly the same size as google's current total cloud business and aws is growing faster at the time at 49 don't forget google includes in its cloud numbers a big chunk of high margin software aws at the time had an operating profit of 1.4 billion that quarter around 26 of its revenues so it was a highly profitable business about as profitable as cisco's overall business which again is a great business this is what happens when you're number three and didn't get your head out of your ads fast enough now in fairness google still gets high marks on the quality of its technology according to corey quinn of the duck bill group amazon and google cloud are what he called neck and neck with regard to reliability with microsoft azure trailing because of significant disruptions in the past these comments were made last week in a bloomberg article despite some recent high-profile outages on aws not surprisingly a microsoft spokesperson said that the company's cloud offers industry-leading reliability and that gives customers payment credits after some outages thank you turning to microsoft and cloud news microsoft's overall cloud business surpassed 22 billion in the december quarter up 32 percent year on year like google microsoft includes application software and sas offerings in its cloud numbers and gives little nuggets of guidance on its azure infrastructure as a service business by the way we estimate that azure comprises about 45 percent of microsoft's overall cloud business which we think hit a 40 billion run rate last quarter microsoft guided in its earning call that recent declines in the azure growth rates will reverse in q1 and that implies sequential growth for azure and finally it was announced that the ftc not the doj will review microsoft's announced 75 billion acquisition of activision blizzard it appears ftc chair lena khan wants to take this one on herself she of course has been very outspoken about the power of big tech companies and in recent a recent cnbc interview suggested that the u.s government's actions were a meaningful contributor back then to curbing microsoft's power in the 90s i personally found that dubious just ask netscape wordperfect novell lotus and spc the maker of harvard presentation graphics how effective the government was in curbing microsoft power generally my take is that the u s government has had a dismal record regulating tech companies most notably ibm and microsoft and it was market forces company hubris complacency and self-inflicted wounds not government intervention these were far more effective than the government now of course if companies are breaking the law they should be punished but the u.s government hasn't been very productive in its actions and the unintended consequences of regulation could be detrimental to the u.s competitiveness in the race with china but i digress lastly in the news amazon announced earnings thursday and the company's value increased by 191 billion dollars on friday that's a record valuation gain for u.s stocks aws amazon's profit engine grew 40 percent year on year for the quarter it closed the year at 62 billion dollars in revenue and at a 71 billion dollar revenue run rate aws is now larger than ibm which without kindrel is at a 67 billion dollar run rate just for context ibm's revenue in 2011 was 107 billion dollars now there's a conversation going on in the media and social that in order to continue this growth and compete with microsoft that aws has to get into the sas business and offer applications we don't think that's the right strategy for amp from for amazon in the near future rather we see them enabling developers to compete in that business finally amazon disclosed that 48 of its top 50 customers are using graviton 2 instances why is this important because aws is well ahead of the competition in custom silicon chips is and is on a price performance curve that is far better than alternatives especially those based on x86 this is one of the reasons why we think this business is not a race to the bottom aws is being followed by google microsoft and alibaba in terms of developing custom silicon and will continue to drive down their internal cost structures and deliver price performance equal to or better than the historical moore's law curves so that's the recent news for the big u.s cloud providers let's now take a look at how the year ended for the big four hyperscalers and look ahead to next year here's a table we've shown this view before it shows the revenue estimates for worldwide is and paths generated by aws microsoft alibaba and google now remember amazon and alibaba they share clean eye ass figures whereas microsoft and alphabet only give us these nuggets that we have to interpret and we correlate those tidbits with other data that we gather we're one of the few outlets that actually attempts to make these apples to apples comparisons there's a company called synergy research there's another firm that does this but i really can't map to their numbers their gcp figures look far too high and azure appears somewhat overestimated and they do include other stuff like hosted private cloud services but it's another data point that you can use okay back to the table we've slightly adjusted our gcp figures down based on interpreting some of alphabet's statements and other survey data only alibaba has yet to announce earnings so we'll stick to a 2021 market size of about 120 billion dollars that's a 41 growth rate relative to 2020 and we expect that figure to increase by 38 percent to 166 billion in 2022 now we'll discuss this a bit later but these four companies have created an opportunity for the ecosystem to build what we're calling super clouds on top of this infrastructure and we're seeing it happen it was increasingly obvious at aws re invent last year and we feel it will pick up momentum in the coming months and years a little bit more on that later now here's a graphical view of the quarterly revenue shares for these four companies notice that aws has reversed its share erosion and is trending up slightly aws has accelerated its growth rate four quarters in a row now it accounted for 52 percent of the big four hyperscaler revenue last year and that figure was nearly 54 in the fourth quarter azure finished the year with 32 percent of the hyper scale revenue in 2021 which dropped to 30 percent in q4 and you can see gcp and alibaba they're neck and neck fighting for the bronze medal by the way in our recent 2022 predictions post we said google cloud platform would surpass alibaba this year but given the recent trimming of our numbers google's got some work to do for that prediction to be correct okay just to put a bow on the wikibon market data let's look at the quarterly growth rates and you'll see the compression trends there this data tracks quarterly revenue growth rates back to 20 q1 2019 and you can see the steady downward trajectory and the reversal that aws experienced in q1 of last year now remember microsoft guided for sequential growth and azure so that orange line should trend back up and given gcp's much smaller and big go to market investments that we talked about we'd like to see an acceleration there as well the thing about aws is just remarkable that it's able to accelerate growth at a 71 billion run rate business and alibaba you know is a bit more opaque and likely still reeling from the crackdown of the chinese government we're admittedly not as close to the china market but we'll continue to watch from afar as that steep decline in growth rate is somewhat of a concern okay let's get into the survey data from etr and to do so we're going to take some time series views on some of the select cloud platforms that are showing spending momentum in the etr data set you know etr uses a metric we talked about this a lot called net score to measure that spending velocity of products and services netscore basically asks customers are you spending more less or the same on a platform and a vendor and then it subtracts the lesses from the moors and that yields a net score this chart shows net score for five cloud platforms going back to january 2020. note in the table that the table we've inserted inside that chart shows the net score and shared n the latter metric indicates the number of mentions in the data set and all the platforms we've listed here show strong presence in the survey that red dotted line at 40 percent that indicates spending is at an elevated level and you can see azure and aws and vmware cloud on aws as well as gcp are all nicely elevated and bounding off their october figures indicating continued cloud momentum overall but the big surprise in these figures is the steady climb and the steep bounce up from oracle which came in just under the 40 mark now one quarter is not necessarily a trend but going back to january 2020 the oracle peaks keep getting higher and higher so we definitely want to keep watching this now here's a look at some of the other cloud platforms in the etr survey the chart here shows the same time series and we've now brought in some of the big hybrid players notably vmware cloud which is vcf and other on-prem solutions red hat openstack which as we've reported in the past is still popular in telcos who want to build their own cloud we're also starting to see hpe with green lake and dell with apex show up more and ibm which years ago acquired soft layer which was really essentially a bare metal hosting company and over the years ibm cobbled together its own public cloud ibm is now racing after hybrid cloud using red hat openshift as the linchpin to that strategy now what this data tells us first of all these platforms they don't have the same presence in the data set as do the previous players vmware is the one possible exception but other than vmware these players don't have the spending velocity shown in the previous chart and most are below the red line hpe and dell are interesting and notable in that they're transitioning their early private cloud businesses to dell gr sorry hpe green lake and dell apex respectively and finally after years of kind of staring at their respective navels in in cloud and milking their legacy on-prem models they're finally building out cloud-like infrastructure for their customers they're leaning into cloud and marketing it in a more sensible and attractive fashion for customers so we would expect these figures are going to bounce around for a little while for those two as they settle into a groove and we'll watch that closely now ibm is in the process of a complete do-over arvin krishna inherited three generations of leadership with a professional services mindset now in the post gerschner gerstner era both sam palmisano and ginny rometty held on far too long to ibm's service heritage and protected the past from the future they missed the cloud opportunity and they forced the acquisition of red hat to position the company for the hybrid cloud remedy tried to shrink to grow but never got there krishna is moving faster and with the kindred spin is promising mid-single-digit growth which would be a welcome change ibm is a lot of work to do and we would expect its net score figures as well to bounce around as customers transition to the future all right let's take a look at all these different players in context these are all the clouds that we just talked about in a two-dimensional view the vertical axis is net score or spending momentum and the horizontal axis is market share or presence or pervasiveness in the data set a couple of call-outs that we'd like to make here first the data confirms what we've been saying what everybody's been saying aws and microsoft stand alone with a huge presence many tens of billions of dollars in revenue yet they are both well above the 40 line and show spending momentum and they're well ahead of gcp on both dimensions second vmware while much smaller is showing legitimate momentum which correlates to its public statements alibaba the alibaba in this survey really doesn't have enough sample to make hardcore conclusions um you can see hpe and dell and ibm you know similarly they got a little bit more presence in the data set but they clearly have some work to do what you're seeing there is their transitioning their legacy install bases oracle's the big surprise look what oracle was in the january survey and how they've shot up recently now we'll see if this this holds up let's posit some possibilities as to why it really starts with the fact that oracle is the king of mission critical apps now if you haven't seen video on twitter you have to check it out it's it's hilarious we're not going to run the video here but the link will be in our post but i'll give you the short version some really creative person they overlaid a data migration narrative on top of this one tooth guy who speaks in spanish gibberish but the setup is he's a pm he's a he's a a project manager at a bank and aws came into the bank this of course all hypothetical and said we can move all your apps to the cloud in 12 months and the guy says but wait we're running mission critical apps on exadata and aws says there's nothing special about exadata and he starts howling and slapping his knee and laughing and giggling and talking about the 23 year old senior engineer who says we're going to do this with microservices and he could tell he was he was 23 because he was wearing expensive sneakers and what a nightmare they encountered migrating their environment very very very funny video and anyone who's ever gone through a major migration of mission critical systems this is gonna hit home it's funny not funny the point is it's really painful to move off of oracle and oracle for all its haters and its faults is really the best environment for mission critical systems and customers know it so what's happening is oracle's building out the best cloud for oracle database and it has a lot of really profitable customers running on-prem that the company is migrating to oracle cloud infrastructure oci it's a safer bet than ripping it and putting it into somebody else's cloud that doesn't have all the specialized hardware and oracle knowledge because you can get the same integrated exadata hardware and software to run your database in the oracle cloud it's frankly an easier and much more logical migration path for a lot of customers and that's possibly what's happening here not to mention oracle jacks up the license price nearly doubles the license price if you run on other clouds so not only is oracle investing to optimize its cloud infrastructure it spends money on r d we've always talked about that really focused on mission critical applications but it's making it more cost effective by penalizing customers that run oracle elsewhere so this possibly explains why when the gartner magic quadrant for cloud databases comes out it's got oracle so well positioned you can see it there for yourself oracle's position is right there with aws and microsoft and ahead of google on the right-hand side is gartner's critical capabilities ratings for dbms and oracle leads in virtually all of the categories gartner track this is for operational dvms so it's kind of a narrow view it's like the red stack sweet spot now this graph it shows traditional transactions but gartner has oracle ahead of all vendors in stream processing operational intelligence real-time augmented transactions now you know gartner they're like old name framers and i say that lovingly so maybe they're a bit biased and they might be missing some of the emerging opportunities that for example like snowflake is pioneering but it's hard to deny that oracle for its business is making the right moves in cloud by optimizing for the red stack there's little question in our view when it comes to mission critical we think gartner's analysis is correct however there's this other really exciting landscape emerging in cloud data and we don't want it to be a blind spot snowflake calls it the data cloud jamactagani calls it data mesh others are using the term data fabric databricks calls it data lake house so so does oracle by the way and look the terminology is going to evolve and most of the action action that's happening is in the cloud quite frankly and this chart shows a select group of database and data warehouse companies and we've filtered the data for aws azure and gcp customers accounts so how are these accounts or companies that were showing how these vendors were showing doing in aws azure and gcp accounts and to make the cut you had to have a minimum of 50 mentions in the etr survey so unfortunately data bricks didn't make it just not enough presence in the data set quite quite yet but just to give you a sense snowflake is represented in this cut with 131 accounts aws 240 google 108 microsoft 407 huge [ __ ] 117 cloudera 52 just made the cut ibm 92 and oracle 208. again these are shared accounts filtered by customers running aws azure or gcp the chart shows a net score lime green is new ads forest green is spending more gray is flat spending the pink is spending less and the bright red is defection again you subtract the red from the green and you get net score and you can see that snowflake as we reported last week is tops in the data set with a net score in the 80s and virtually no red and even by the way single digit flat spend aws google and microsoft are all prominent in the data set as is [ __ ] and snowflake as i just mentioned and they're all elevated over the 40 mark cloudera yeah what can we say once they were a high flyer they're really not in the news anymore with anything compelling other than they just you know took the company private so maybe they can re-emerge at some point with a stronger story i hope so because as you can see they actually have some new additions and spending momentum in the green just a lot of customers holding steady and a bit too much red but they're in the positive territory at least with uh plus 17 percent unlike ibm and oracle and this is the flip side of the coin ibm they're knee-deep really chest deep in the middle of a major transformation we've said before arvind krishna's strategy and vision is at least achievable prune the portfolio i.e spin out kindrel sell watson health hold serve with the mainframe and deal with those product cycles shift the mix to software and use red hat to win the day in hybrid red hat is working for ibm's growing well into the double digits unfortunately it's not showing up in this chart with little database momentum in aws azure and gcp accounts zero new ads not enough acceleration and spending a big gray middle in nearly a quarter of the base in the red ibm's data and ai business only grew three percent this last quarter and the word database wasn't even mentioned once on ibm's earnings call this has to be a concern as you can see how important database is to aws microsoft google and the momentum it's giving companies like snowflake and [ __ ] and others which brings us to oracle with a net score of minus 12. so how do you square the momentum in oracle cloud spending and the strong ratings and databases from gartner with this picture good question and i would say the following first look at the profile people aren't adding oracle new a large portion of the base 25 is reducing spend by 6 or worse and there's a decent percentage of the base migrating off oracle with a big fat middle that's flat and this accounts for the poor net score overall but what etr doesn't track is how much is being spent rather it's an account based model and oracle is heavily weighted toward big spenders running mission critical applications and databases oracle's non-gaap operating margins are comparable to ibm's gross margins on a percentage basis so a very profitable company with a big license and maintenance in stall basin oracle has focused its r d investments into cloud erp database automation they've got vertical sas and they've got this integrated hardware and software story and this drives differentiation for the company but as you can see in this chart it has a legacy install base that is constantly trying to minimize its license costs okay here's a little bit of different view on the same data we expand the picture with the two dimensions of net score on the y-axis and market share or pervasiveness on the horizontal axis and the table insert is how the data gets plotted y and x respectively not much to add here other than to say the picture continues to look strong for those companies above the 40 line that are focused and their focus and have figured out a clear cloud strategy and aren't necessarily dealing with a big install base the exception of course is is microsoft and the ones below the line definitely have parts of their portfolio which have solid momentum but they're fighting the inertia of a large install base that moves very slowly again microsoft had the advantage of really azure and migrating those customers very quickly okay so let's wrap it up starting with the big three cloud players aws is accelerating and innovating great example is custom silicon with nitro and graviton and other chips that will help the company address concerns related to the race to the bottom it's not a race to zero aws we believe will let its developers go after the sas business and for the most part aws will offer solutions that address large vertical markets think call centers the edge remains a wild card for aws and all the cloud players really aws believes that in the fullness of time all workloads will run in the public cloud now it's hard for us to imagine the tesla autonomous vehicles running in the public cloud but maybe aws will redefine what it means by its cloud microsoft well they're everywhere and they're expanding further now into gaming and the metaverse when he became ceo in 2014 many people said that satya should ditch xbox just as an aside the joke among many oracle employees at the time was that safra katz would buy her kids and her nieces and her nephews and her kids friends everybody xbox game consoles for the holidays because microsoft lost money for everyone that they shipped well nadella has stuck with it and he sees an opportunity to expand through online gaming communities one of his first deals as ceo was minecraft now the acquisition of activision will make microsoft the world's number three gaming company by revenue behind only 10 cent and sony all this will be powered by azure and drive more compute storage ai and tooling now google for its part is battling to stay relevant in the conversation luckily it can afford the massive losses it endures in cloud because the company's advertising business is so profitable don't expect as many have speculated that google is going to bail on cloud that would be a huge mistake as the market is more than large enough for three players which brings us to the rest of the pack cloud ecosystems generally and aws specifically are exploding the idea of super cloud that is a layer of value that spans multiple clouds hides the underlying complexity and brings new value that the cloud players aren't delivering that's starting to bubble to the top and legacy players are staying close to their customers and fighting to keep them spending and it's working dell hpe cisco and smaller predominantly on-plan prem players like pure storage they continue to do pretty well they're just not as sexy as the big cloud players the real interesting activity it's really happening in the ecosystem of companies and firms within industries that are transforming to create their own digital businesses virtually all of them are running a portion of their offerings on the public cloud but often connecting to on-premises workloads and data think goldman sachs making that work and creating a great experience across all environments is a big opportunity and we're seeing it form right before our eyes don't miss it okay that's it for now thanks to my colleague stephanie chan who helped research this week's topics remember these episodes are all available as podcasts wherever you listen just search breaking analysis podcast check out etr's website at etr dot ai and also we publish a full report every week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com you can get in touch with me email me at david.velante siliconangle.com you can dm me at divalante or comment on my linkedin post this is dave vellante for the cube insights powered by etr have a great week stay safe be well and we'll see you next time [Music] you

>> Narrator: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with digital coverage of IBM Think 2021, brought to you by IBM. >> Welcome back to IBM Think 2021. This is the cubes ongoing coverage, where we go out to the events, we extract the signal from the noise, of course virtually in this case, now we're going to talk about ecosystems, partnerships and the flywheel they deliver in the technology business. And with me are Jason Kelly, he's the general manager global strategic partnerships, IBM global business services and Mani Dasgupta, who's the vice president of marketing for IBM global business services. Folks it's great to see you again. I wish we were face-to-face, but this'll have to do. >> Good to see you Dave and same, I wish we were face to face, but we'll, we'll go with this. >> Soon. We're being patient. Jason, let's start with you. You, you have a partner strategy. I wonder if you could sort of summarize that and tell us more about it. >> So it's interesting that we start with the strategy because you said, we have a partner strategy Dave and I'd say that the market has dictated back to us, a partner strategy. Something that we it's not new, we didn't start it yesterday. It's something that we continue to evolve in and build even stronger. This thought of a, a partner strategy is it... Nothing's better than the thought of a partnership and people say, "Oh, well, you know you got to work together as one team and as a partner." And it sounds almost as a one to one type relationship. Our strategy is much different than that Dave and our execution is even better. And that, that execution is focused on now the requirement that the market, our clients are showing to us and our strategic partners, that one... One player, can't deliver all their needs. They can't design solution and deliver that from one place. It does take an ecosystem to the word that you called out, this thought of an ecosystem. And our strategy and execution is focused on that. And the reason why I say it evolves is because the market will continue to evolve and this thought of being able to look at a client's, let's call it a workflow, let's call it a value chain from one end to the other, wherever they start their process to wherever it ultimately hits that end user, it's going to take many players to cover that. And then we as IBM want to make sure that we are the general contractor of that capability with the ability to convene the right strategic partners, bring out the best value for that outcome, not just technology for technology's sake, but the outcome that the end client is looking for so that we bring value to our strategic partners and that end client. >> I think about when you talk about the, the value chain, you know, I'm imagining, you know the business books years ago where you see the conceptual value chain, you could certainly understand that and you could put processes together to connect them and now, you've got technology. I think of APIs. It's, it's, it really supports that everything gets accelerated and, and Mani, I wonder if you could address sort of the the go to market, how this notion of ecosystem which is so important is impacting the way in which you go to market. >> Absolutely. So modern business, you know demands a new approach to working. The ecosystem thought that Jason was just alluding to, it's a mutual benefit of all these companies working together in the market. It's a mutual halo of the brands. So as responsible, you know, for the championship of, of the IBM and the Global Business Services brand, I am very, very interested in this mutual working together. It should be a win, win, win as we say in the market. It should be a win for, our clients first and foremost, it should be a win for our partners and it should be a win for IBM, and we are working together right now on an approach to bring this go-to-market market strategy to life. >> So I wonder if we can maybe talk about, how this actually works and, and pulling some examples. You must have some favorites that we can touch on. Is that, is that fair? Can we, can we name some names? >> Sure. Names always work in debut writing. It's always in context of reality that we can talk about, as I said, this execution and not just a strategy and I'll, I'll start with probably what's right in the front of many people's minds. As we're doing this virtually because of what, because of an unfortunate pandemic. Just disastrous loss of life and things that have taken us down a path we go, whoa! (clears throat) How do we, how do we address that? Well, anytime there's a tough task IBM raises its hand first. You know, whether it was putting a person on the moon and bringing them home safely, or standing up a system behind the current social security administration, you know during the depression, you pick it. Well here we are now and why not start with that as an example because I think it calls out just what we mentioned here. First, Dave, this thought of, of an ecosystem because the first challenge, how do we create and address the biggest data puzzle of our lives which is, how do we get this vaccine created in record time? Which it was. The fastest before that was four years. This was a matter of months. So Pfizer created the first one out and then had to get it out to distribution. Behind that is a wonderful partner of ours, SAP trying to work with that. So us working with SAP, along with Pfizer in order to figure out, how to get that value chain and some would say supply chain, but I'll, I'll address that in a second, but there's many players there. And, and so we were in the middle of that with Pfizer committed to saying, how do we do that with SAP? So now you see players working together as one ecosystem. But then think about the ecosystem that that's happening where you have a federal government agency. You have Ms. State, Alocal, you have healthcare life science industry, you have consumer industry. Oh, wait a second Dave, this is getting very complicated, right? Well, this is the thought of convening in the ecosystem. And this is what I'm telling you is, is our execution and it, it has worked well and so it's, it's it's happening now and we see it still developing and being, being, you know very productive in real time. But then, I said there was a another example and that's with me, you, Mani, whomever. You pick the consumer. Ultimately we are that outcome of, of the value chain. That's why I said I don't want to just call it a supply chain because at the end is, is, is someone consuming and in this case we need a shot. And so we partnered with Salesforce, IBM and Salesforce saying, wait a minute that's not a small task. It's not just get, get the content there and put it in someone's arm. Instead there's scheduling that must be done. There's follow up, and entire case management like system. Salesforce is a master at this. So work.com team with IBM we said now, let's get that part done for the right type of UI UX capability, that user experience, user interaction interface and then also, in bringing another player in the ecosystem. One of ours, Watson health, along with our blockchain team, we brought together something called a digital health pass. So, I've just talked about two ecosystems where multiple ecosystems working together. So you think of an ecosystem of ecosystems. I call it out blockchain technology and obviously supply chain, but there's also AI, IOT. So you start to see where, look, this is truly an orchestration effort that has to happen with very well designed capability and so of course we master in design and tying that, that entire ecosystem together and convening it so that we get to the right outcome. You, me, Mani are all getting the shot, being healthy. That's a real-time example of us working with an ecosystem and teaming with key strategic partners. >> You know Mani, I, I, I mean, Jason you're right. I mean this pandemic's been horrible. I have to say, I'm really thankful it didn't happen 20 years ago because it would have been like, okay here's some big PCs and a modem and go ahead and figure it out. So, at least, the tech industry has saved the business. I mean, with, and earlier we mentioned AI, automation, data, you know, even things basic things like, security at the end point. I mean so many things and you're right. I mean, IBM in particular, other large companies, you mentioned, SAP who have taken the lead and it's really, I, I don't, I Mani I don't think the tech industry gets enough credit but I wonder if there's some of your favorite partnerships that you can talk about. >> Yeah. So I'm going to, I'm going to build on what you just said, Dave. IBM is in this unique position amongst this ecosystem. Not only the fact that we have the world's leading most innovative technologies to bring to bear, but we also have the consulting capabilities that go with it. Now to make any of these technologies work towards the solution that Jason was referring to in this digital health pass, it could be any other solution, you would need to connect these disparate systems sometimes make them work towards a common outcome to provide value to the clients. So I think our role as IBM within this ecosystem is pretty unique in that we are able to bring both of these capabilities to bear. In terms of, you know, you asked about favorites. There are, this is really a co-opetition market where everybody has products, everybody has services. The most important thing is how are we, how are we bringing them all together to serve the need or the need of the hour in this case? I would say one important thing in this, as you observe how these stories are panning out. In an ecosystem, in a partnership, it is about the value that we provide to our clients together. So it's almost like a "sell with" model from, from a go-to-market perspective. There is also a question of our products and services being delivered through our partners, right? So think about this, the span and scope or what we do here and so that's the sell through, and then of course we have our products running within our partner companies and our partner products for example, Salesforce, running within IBM. So this is a very interesting and a new way of doing business. I would say it's almost like the, the modern way of doing business with modern IT. >> Well, and you mentioned co-opetition. I mean, I look at it, you're, you're, you're part of IBM that will work with anybody 'cause you're your customer first. Whether it's AWS, Microsoft, I mean, Oracle is a, is a, is a really tough competitor but your customers are using Oracle and they're using IBM. So I mean, as a, those are some, you know good examples I think of your point about co-opetition. >> Absolutely. If you pick on any other client, I'll mention in this case, Delta. Delta was working with us on moving, being more agile and now this pandemic has impacted the airline sector particularly hard, right? With travel stopping and anything. So they are trying to get to a model which will help them scale up, scale down be more agile, be more secure be closer to their customers to try and understand how they can provide value to their customers and customers better. So we are working with Delta on moving them to cloud, on the journey to cloud. Now that public cloud could be anything. The, the beauty of this model in a hybrid cloud approach is that you're able to put them on red hat openshift, you're able to do and package the, the services into microservices kind of a model. You want to make sure all the applications are running on a... On a portable almost a platform agnostic kind of a model. This is the beauty of this ecosystem that we are discussing as the ability, to do what's right for the end customer at the end of the day. >> How about some of the like SaaS players? Like some of the more prominent ones. And we, we, we watched the ascendancy of ServiceNow and Workday, you mentioned Salesforce. How do you work with those guys? Obviously there's an AI opportunity but maybe you could add some color there. >> So I like the fact Dave that you call out the different hyperscalers, for example whether it's AWS, whether it's Microsoft, knowing that they have their own cloud instances, for example. And when you, when you mentioned, hey, had this happened a long time ago, you know you started talking about the, the heft of the technology. I started thinking of all the, the the truck loads of servers or whatever they, you know they'd have to pull up, we don't need that now because it can happen in the cloud. And you don't have to pick one cloud or the other. And so when people say hybrid cloud, that's what comes out. You start to think of what I call, I call, you know, a hybrid of hybrids because I told you before, you know these roles are changing. People aren't just buyers or suppliers. They're both. And then you start to say, what are, what are different people supplying? Well, in that ecosystem, we know there's not going to be one player. There's going to be multiple. So we partner by doing just what Mani called out as this thought of integrating in hybrid environments on hybrid platforms with hybrid clouds, multi-clouds. Maybe I want something on my premises, something somewhere else. So in giving that capability, that flexibility, we empower and this is what it's doing is that co-opetition. We empower our partners, our strategic partners. We want them to be better with us and this is just the thought of, you know, being able to actually bring more together and move faster. Which is almost counter-intuitive. You're like, wait a minute, you're adding more players but you're moving faster. Exactly. Because we have the capability to integrate those, those technologies and get that outcome that Mani mentioned. >> I would add to one Jason, you mentioned something very, very interesting. I think if you want to go just fast, you go alone. But if you want to go further, you go together. And that is the core of our point of view, in this case is that we want to go further and we want to create value that is long lasting. >> What about like, so I get the technology players and there's maybe things that you do, that others don't or vice versa so the gap fillers, et cetera. But what about, how, maybe customers do they get involved? Perhaps government agencies, maybe they be, they they be customer or an NGO as another example. Are they part of this value chain part of this ecosystem? >> Absolutely. I'll give you... I'll stick with the same example when I mentioned a digital health pass. That digital health pass, is something that we have as IBM and it's a credential. Think of it as a health credential, not a vaccine passport cause it could be used for a test for, a negative test on COVID, it could be used for antibodies. So if you have this credential it's something that we as IBM created years back and we were using it for learning. When you think of, you know getting people certifications versus a four-year diploma. How do we get people into the workforce? That was what was original. That was a Jenny Rometty thought. Let's focus on new collar workers. So we had this asset that we'd already created and then said wait, here's a place for it to work with, with health, with validation verification on someone's option, it's optional. They choose it. Hey, I want to do it this way. Well, the state of New York said that they want it to do it that way and they said, listen we are going to have a digital health pass for all of our, all of our New York citizens and we want to make sure that it's equitable. It could be printed or on a screen and we want it to be designed in this way and we want it to work on this platform and we want to be able to, to work with these strategic partners, like Salesforce and SAP, Alocal. I mean, I can just keep going. And we said, "Okay, let's do this." And this is this thought of collaboration and doing it by design. So we haven't lost that Dave. This only brings it to the forefront just as you said. Yes, that is what we want. We want to make sure that in this ecosystem, we have a way to ensure that we are bringing together, convening not just point products or different service providers but taking them together and getting the best outcomes so that that end user can have it configured in the way that they, they want it. >> Guys, we've got to leave it there but it's clear you're helping your customers and your partners on this, this digital transformation journey that we already, we all talk about. You get this massive portfolio of capabilities, deep, deep expertise. I love the hybrid cloud and AI focus. Jason and Mani, really appreciate you coming back in the cubes. Great to see you both. >> Thank you so much, Dave. Fantastic. >> Thank you Dave. Great to be with you. >> All right, and thank you for watching everybody. Dave Vellante, for the cube and in continuous coverage of IBM Think 2021, the virtual edition. Keep it right there. (poignant music) (bright uplifting music)

>> (lively music) >> Narrator: From around the globe it's theCUBE, with digital coverage of IBM Think 2021. Brought to you by IBM. >> Welcome to theCUBE's coverage of IBM Think 2021, the digital event experience. I'm your host, Lisa Martin. I've got an alumni joining me and a brand new guest to the CUBE please welcome Paul Papas, the Global Managing Partner, for IBM Global Business Services, this is transformation services. Paul, welcome back to the virtual CUBE. >> Thanks Lisa great to be here with you today. And Dominique Dubois is here as well. She is the Global Strategy and Offerings Leader in business transformation services or BTS at IBM. Dominique, welcome to the program. >> Thanks Lisa, great to be here. So, we're going to be talking about accelerating business transformation with intelligent workflows. We're going to break through all that, but Paul we're going to start with you. Since we last got together with IBM, a lot has changed so much transformation, so much acceleration of transformation. Talk to me from your perspective, how have you seen the way that businesses running change and what some of the changes in the future are going to be? >> Well, you hit on two key words there Lisa and thanks so much for that question. Two key words that you hit on were change and acceleration. And that's exactly what we see. We were seeing this before the pandemic and if anything, with the pandemic did when things started started kind of spreading around the world late or early last year, around January, February timeframe we saw that word acceleration really take hold. Every one of our clients were looking for new ways to accelerate the change that they had already planned to adapt to this new, this new normal or this new abnormal, depending on how you view it. In fact, we did a study recently, an IBV study that's our Institute of Business Value and found that six out of 10 organizations were accelerating all of their transformation initiatives they had already planned. And that's exactly what we're seeing happening right now in all parts of the world and across all industries. This acceleration to transform. >> So, one of the things that we've talked about for years, Paul, before the pandemic was even a thing, is that there was a lot of perceived technical barriers in terms of like the tech maturity for organizations and employees being opposed to change. People obviously it can be a challenge. They're used to doing things the way they are. But as you just said, in that IBV survey, nearly 60% of businesses say we have to accelerate our transformation due to COVID, probably initially to survive and then thrive. Talk to me about some of those, those barriers that were there a little over a year ago and how businesses 60 plus percent of them have moved those out of the way. >> You know at IBM we've got a 109 year history of being a technology innovation company. And the rate of pace of technical change is always increasing. It's something that we love and that we're comfortable with. But the rate and pace of change is always unsettling. And there's always a human element for change. And the human element is always the rate, the rate setter in terms of the amount of change that you can have in an organization. Our former chairman Ginni Rometty, used to say that growth and comfort cannot co-exist. And it's so true because changing is uncomfortable. It's unsettling. It can be, it can be nerve-racking. It can instill fear and fear can be paralyzing in terms of driving change. And what we also see is there's a disconnect, a lot of times and that IBV study that I was referring to before, we saw results coming back where 78% of executives feel that they have provided the training and enablement to help their employees transform to new required skills and new ways of working but only half of the people surveyed felt the same way. Similarly, we saw a disconnect in terms of companies feeling that they're providing the right level of health and wellness support during the pandemic. And only half of the employees responded back they feel that they're getting that level of support. So, the people change aspect of doing a transformation or adapting to new circumstances is always the most critical component and always the hardest component. And when we talk about helping our clients do that in IBM that's our service as organization. That's the organization that Dominique Dubois is representing here today. I'm responsible for business transformation services within our organization. We help our clients adapt using new technologies, transforming the way they work, but also addressing the people change elements that could be so difficult and hitting them head on so that they can make sure that they can survive and thrive in a meaningful and lasting way in this new world. >> One of the hardest things is that cultural transformation regardless of a pandemic. So, I can't imagine I'd love to get one more thing, Paul from you before we head over to Dominique. IBM is on 109 year old organization. Talk to me about the IBM pledge. This is something that came up last year, huge organization massive changes last year, not just the work from home that the mental concerns and issues that people had. What did IBM do like as a grassroots effort that went viral? >> Yeah, so, it's really great. So, when the pandemic started, we all have to shift it, We all have to shift to working from home. And as you mentioned, IBM's 109 year old company, we have over 300,000 employees working in 170 countries. So, we had to move this entire workforce. It's 370,000 humans to working in a new way that many of which have never done before. And when we started experiencing, the minute we did that, within a few weeks, my team and I were talking Dominique is on my team and we were having conversations where we were feeling really exhausted. Just a few weeks into this and it was because we were constantly on Webex, we were constantly connected and we're all used to working really hard. We travel a lot, we're always with our clients. So, it wasn't that, you have a team that is adapting to like working more hours or longer hours, but this was fundamentally different. And we saw that with schools shutting down and lock downs happening in different of the world the home life balance was getting immediately difficult to impossible to deal with. We have people that are taking care of elderly parents, people that are homeschooling children, other personal life situations that everyone had to navigate in the middle of a pandemic locked at home with different restrictions on when you can go out and get things done. So, we got together as a group and we just started talking about how can we help? How can we help make life just a little bit easier for all of our people? And we started writing down some things that we would, we would commit to doing with each other. How we would address each other. And when that gave birth to was what we call the IBM Work From Home Pledge. And it's a set of principles, all grounded in the belief that, if we act this way, we might just be able to make life just a little bit easier for each other and it's grounded in empathy. And there are parts of the Plex that are pledging to be kind. Recognizing that in this new digital world that we're showing up on camera inside of everyone's home. We're guests in each other's homes. So, let's make sure that we act appropriately as guests at each other's home. So, if children run into the frame during the middle of a meeting or dog started barking during the middle of a meeting, just roll with it. Don't call out attention to it. Don't make people feel self-conscious about it. Pledged the support so your fellow IBM by making time for personal needs. So, if someone has to, do homeschooling in the middle of the day, like Dominique's got triplets she's got to do homeschooling in the middle of the day. Block that time off and we will respect that time on your calendar. And just work around it and just deal with it. There are other things like respecting that camera ready time. As someone who's now been on camera every day it feels like for the last 14 months we want to respect the time that people when they have their cameras off. And not pressure them to put their cameras on saying things like, Hey, I can't see you. There's no reason to add more pressure to everyone's life, if someone's camera's off, it's all for a reason. And then other things like pledging to checking on each other, pledging to set boundaries and tend to our own self-care. So, we published that as a group, we just again and we put it on a Slack channel. So it's kind of our communication method inside the company. It was just intended to be for my organization but it started going viral and tens of thousands of IBM members started taking, started taking the pledge and ultimately caught the attention of our CEO and he loved it, shared it with his leadership team, which I'm a part of. And then also then went on LinkedIn and publicly took the pledge as well. Which then also got more excitement and interaction with other companies as well. So, grassroots effort all grounded in showing empathy and helping to make life just a little bit easier for everyone. >> So important, I'm going to look that up and I'm going to tell you as a person who speaks with many tech companies a week. A lot of businesses could take a lead from that and it gets really important and we are inviting each other into our homes and I see you're a big Broadway fan I'll have to ask you that after we wrap (giggles) Dominique I don't know how you're doing any of this with triplets. I only have two dogs (Dominique laughs) but I'd love to know this sense of urgency, that is everywhere you're living it. Paul talked about it with respect to the acceleration of transformation. How from your lens is IBM and IBM helping customers address the urgency, the need to pivot, the need to accelerate, the need to survive and thrive with respect to digital transformation actually getting it done? >> Right, thanks Lisa, so true our clients are really needing to and ready to move with haste. That that sense of urgency can be felt I think across every country, every market, every industry. And so we're really helping our clients accelerate their digital transformations and we do that through something that we call intelligent workflows. And so workflows in and of themselves are basically how organizations get work done. But intelligent workflows are how we infuse; predictive properties, automation, transparency, agility, end to end across a workflow. So, pulling those processes together so they're not solid anymore and infusing. So, simply put we bring intelligent workflows to our clients and it fundamentally reinvents how they're getting work done from a digital perspective, from a predictive perspective, from a transparency perspective. And I think what really stands apart when we deliver this with our clients in partnership with our clients is how it not only delivers value to the bottom line, to the top line it also actually delivers greater value to their employees, to the customers, to the partner to their broader ecosystem. And intelligent workflows are really made up of three core elements. The first is around better utilizing data. So, aggregating, analyzing, getting deeper insight out of data, and then using that insight not just for employees to make better decisions, but actually to support for emerging technologies to leverage. So we talked about AI, automation, IOT, blockchain, all of these technologies require vast amounts of data. And what we're able to bring both on the internal and external source from a data perspective really underpins what these emerging technologies can do. And then the third area is skills. Our skills that we bring to the table, but also our clients deep, deep expertise, partner expertise, expertise from the ecosystem at large and pulling all of that together, is how we're really able to help our clients accelerate their digital transformations because we're helping them shift, from a set of siloed static processes to an end-to-end workflow. We're helping them make fewer predictions based on the past historical data and actually taking more real-time action with real time insights. So, it really is a fundamental shift and how your work is getting done to really being able to provide that emerging technologies, data, deep skills-based end to end workflow. >> That word fundamental has such gravity. and I know we say data has gravity being fundamental in such an incredibly dynamic time is really challenging but I was looking through some of the notes that you guys provided me with. And in terms of what you just talked about, Dominique versus making a change to a silo, the benefits and making changes to a spectrum of integrated processes the values can be huge. In fact, I was reading that changing a single process like billing, for example might deliver up to 20% improved results. But integrating across multiple processes, like billing, collections, organizations can achieve double that up to 40%. And then there's more taking the intelligent workflow across all lead to cash. This was huge. Clients can get 50 to 70% more value from that. So that just shows that fundamental impact that intelligent workflows can make. >> Right, I mean, it really is when we see it really is about unlocking exponential value. So, when you think about crossing end to end workflow but also, really enhancing what clients are doing and what companies are doing today with those exponential technologies from kind of single use the automation POC here and AI application POC here, actually integrating those technologies together and applying them at scale. When I think intelligent workflows I think acceleration. I think exponential value. But I also really think about at scale. Because it's really the ability to apply these technologies the expertise at scale that allows us to start to unlock a lot of that value. >> So let's go over Paul, in the last few minutes that we have here I want to talk about IBM garage and how this is helping clients to really transform those workflows. Talk to me a little bit about what IBM garage is. I know it's not IBM garage band and I know it's been around since before the pandemic but help us understand what that is and how it's delivering value to customers. >> Well, first I'm going to be the first to invite you to join the IBM garage band, Lisa so we'd love to have you >> I'm in. no musical experience required... >> I like to sing, all right I mean (laughs) We're ready, we're ready for. So, let me talk to you about IBM garage and I do want to key on two words that Dominique was mentioning speed and scale. Because that's what our clients are really looking for when they're doing transformations around intelligent workflows. How can you transform at scale, but do that with speed. And that really becomes the critical issue. As Dominique mentioned, there's a lot of companies that can help you do a proof of concept do something in a few weeks that you can test an idea out and have something that's kind of like a throw away piece of work that maybe proves a point or just proves a point. But even if it does prove the point at that point you'd have to restart a new, to try to get something that you could actually scale either in the production technology environment or scale as a change across an organization. And that's where IBM garage comes in. It's all a way of helping our clients co-create, co-execute and then cooperate, innovating at scale. So, we use methods like design thinking inside of IBM we've trained several hundred thousand people on design thinking methods. We use technologies like neural and other things that help our clients co-create in a dynamic environment. And what's amazing for me is that, the cause of the way we were, we were doing work with clients in a garage with using IBM garage in a garage environment before the pandemic. And one of our clients Frito-Lay of North America, is an example where we've helped them innovate at scale and speed using IBM garage over a long period of time. And when the pandemic hit, we in fact were running 11 garages across 11 different workflow areas for them the pandemic hit and everyone was sent home. So, we all instantly overnight had to work from home together with relay. And what was great is that we were able to quickly adapt the garage method to working in a virtual world. To being able to run that same type of innovation and then use that innovation at scale in a virtual world, we did that overnight. And since that time which happened, that happened back in March of last year throughout the pandemic, we've run over 1500 different garage engagements with all of our clients all around the world in a virtual, in a virtual environment. It's just an incredible way, like I said to help our clients innovate at scale. >> That's fantastic, go ahead Dominique. >> Oh, sorry, was just said it's a great example, we partnered with FlightSafety International, they train pilots. And I think a great example of that speed and scale right is in less than 12 weeks due to the garage methodology and the partnership with FlightSafety, we created with them and launched an adaptive learning solution. So, a platform as well as a complete change to their training workflow such that they had personalized kind of real-time next best training for how they train their pilots for simulators. So, reducing their cycle time but also improving the training that their pilots get, which as people who normally travel, it's really important to us and everyone else. So, just a really good example, less than 12 weeks start to start to finish. >> Right, talk about acceleration. Paul, last question for you, we've got about 30 seconds left I know this is an ecosystem effort of IBM, it's ecosystem partners, it's Alliance partners. How are you helping align right partner with the right customer, the right use case? >> Yeah, it's great. And our CEO Arvind Krishna has really ushered in this era where we are all about the open ecosystem here at IBM and working with our ecosystem partners. In our services business we have partnerships with all the major, all the major technology players. We have a 45 year relationship with SAP. We've done more SAP S 400 implementations than anyone in the world. We've got the longest standing consulting relationship with Salesforce, we've got a unique relationship with Adobe, they're only services and technology partner in the ecosystem. And we just recently won three, procedures Partner Awards, with them and most recently we announced a partnership with Celonis which is an incredible process execution software company, process mining software company that's going to help us transform intelligent workflows in an accelerated way, embedded in our garage environment. So, ecosystem is critical to our success but more importantly, it's critical to our client success. We know that no one alone has the answers and no one alone can help anyone change. So, with this open ecosystem approach that we take and global business services and our business transformation services organization, we're able to make sure that we bring our clients the best of everyone's capabilities. Whether it's our technology, partners, our services IBM's own technology capabilities, all in the mix, all orchestrated in service to our client's needs all with the goal of driving superior business outcomes for them. >> And helping those customers in any industry to accelerate their business transformation with those intelligent workloads and a very dynamic time. This is a topic we could keep talking about unfortunately, we are out of time but thank you both for stopping by and sharing with me what's going on with respect to intelligent workflows. How the incremental exponential value it's helping organizations to deliver and all the work that IBM is doing to enable its customers to be thrivers of tomorrow. We appreciate talking to you >> Paul: Thanks Lisa. >> Dominique: Thank you >> For Paul Papas and Dominique Dubois I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the CUBE's coverage of IBM Think the digital event experience. (gentle music)

(lively music) >> From around the globe it's theCUBE, with digital coverage of IBM Think 2021. Brought to you by IBM. >> Welcome to theCUBE's coverage of IBM Think 2021, the digital event experience. I'm your host, Lisa Martin. I've got an alumni joining me and a brand new guest to the CUBE please welcome Paul Papas, the Global Managing Partner, for IBM Global Business Services, this is transformation services. Paul, welcome back to the virtual CUBE. >> Thanks Lisa great to be here with you today. And Dominique Dubois is here as well. She is the Global Strategy and Offerings Leader in business transformation services or BTS at IBM. Dominique, welcome to the program. >> Thanks Lisa, great to be here. So, we're going to be talking about accelerating business transformation with intelligent workflows. We're going to break through all that, but Paul we're going to start with you. Since we last got together with IBM, a lot has changed so much transformation, so much acceleration of transformation. Talk to me from your perspective, how have you seen the way that businesses running change and what some of the changes in the future are going to be? >> Well, you hit on two key words there Lisa and thanks so much for that question. Two key words that you hit on were change and acceleration. And that's exactly what we see. We were seeing this before the pandemic and if anything, with the pandemic did when things started started kind of spreading around the world late or early last year, around January, February timeframe we saw that word acceleration really take hold. Every one of our clients were looking for new ways to accelerate the change that they had already planned to adapt to this new, this new normal or this new abnormal, depending on how you view it. In fact, we did a study recently, an IBV study that's our Institute of Business Value and found that six out of 10 organizations were accelerating all of their transformation initiatives they had already planned. And that's exactly what we're seeing happening right now in all parts of the world and across all industries. This acceleration to transform. >> So, one of the things that we've talked about for years, Paul, before the pandemic was even a thing, is that there was a lot of perceived technical barriers in terms of like the tech maturity for organizations and employees being opposed to change. People obviously it can be a challenge. They're used to doing things the way they are. But as you just said, in that IBV survey, nearly 60% of businesses say we have to accelerate our transformation due to COVID, probably initially to survive and then thrive. Talk to me about some of those, those barriers that were there a little over a year ago and how businesses 60 plus percent of them have moved those out of the way. >> You know at IBM we've got 109 year history of being a technology innovation company. And the rate of pace of technical change is always increasing. It's something that we love and that we're comfortable with. But the rate and pace of change is always unsettling. And there's always a human element for change. And the human element is always the rate, the rate setter in terms of the amount of change that you can have in an organization. Our former chairman Ginni Rometty, used to say that growth and comfort cannot co-exist. And it's so true because changing is uncomfortable. It's unsettling. It can be, it can be nerve-racking. It can instill fear and fear can be paralyzing in terms of driving change. And what we also see is there's a disconnect, a lot of times and that IBV study that I was referring to before, we saw results coming back where 78% of executives feel that they have provided the training and enablement to help their employees transform to new required skills and new ways of working but only half of the people surveyed felt the same way. Similarly, we saw a disconnect in terms of companies feeling that they're providing the right level of health and wellness support during the pandemic. And only half of the employees responded back they feel that they're getting that level of support. So, the people change aspect of may doing a transformation or adapting to new circumstances is always the most critical component and always the hardest component. And when we talk about helping our clients do that in IBM that's our service as organization. That's the organization that Dominique Dubois are representing here today. I'm responsible for business transformation services within our organization. We help our clients adapt using new technologies, transforming the way they work, but also addressing the people change elements that could be so difficult and hitting them head on so that they can make sure that they can survive and thrive in a meaningful and lasting way in this new world. >> One of the hardest things is that cultural transformation regardless of a pandemic. So, I can't imagine I'd love to get one more thing, Paul from you before we head over to Dominique. IBM is on 109 year old organization. Talk to me about the IBM pledge. This is something that came up last year, huge organization massive changes last year, not just the work from home that the mental concerns and issues that people had. What did IBM do like as a grassroots effort that went viral? >> Yeah, so, it's really great. So, when the pandemic started, we all have to shift it, We all have to shift to working from home. And as you mentioned, IBM's 109 year old company, we have over 300,000 employees working in 170 countries. So, we had to move this entire workforce. It's 370,000 humans to working in a new way that many of which have never done before. And when we started experiencing, the minute we did that, within a few weeks, my team and I were talking Dominique is on my team and we were having conversations where we were feeling really exhausted. Just a few weeks into this and it was because we were constantly on Webex, we were constantly connected and we're all used to working really hard. We travel a lot, we're always with our clients. So, it wasn't that, you have a team that is adapting to like working more hours or longer hours, but this was fundamentally different. And we saw that with schools shutting down and lock downs happening in different of the world the home life balance was getting immediately difficult to impossible to deal with. We have people that are taking care of elderly parents, people that are homeschooling children, other personal life situations that everyone had to navigate in the middle of a pandemic locked at home with different restrictions on when you can go out and get things done. So, we got together as a group and we just started talking about how can we help? How can we help make life just a little bit easier for all of our people? And we started writing down some things that we would, we would commit to doing with each other. How we would address each other. And when that gave birth to was what we call the IBM Work From Home Pledge. And it's a set of principles, all grounded in the belief that, if we act this way, we might just be able to make life just a little bit easier for each other and it's grounded in empathy. And there are parts of the Plex that are pledging to be kind. Recognizing that in this new digital world that we're showing up on camera inside of everyone's home. We're guests in each other's homes. So, let's make sure that we act appropriately as guests at each other's home. So, if children run into the frame during the middle of a meeting or dog started barking during the middle of a meeting, just roll with it. Don't call out attention to it. Don't make people feel self-conscious about it. Pledged the support so your fellow IBM by making time for personal needs. So, if someone has to, do homeschooling in the middle of the day, like Dominique's got triplets she's got to do homeschooling in the middle of the day. Block that time off and we will respect that time on your calendar. And just work around it and just deal with it. There are other things like respecting that camera ready time. As someone who's now been on camera every day it feels like for the last 14 months we want to respect the time that people when they have their cameras off. And not pressure them to put their cameras on saying things like, Hey, I can't see you. There's no reason to add more pressure to everyone's life, if someone's camera's off, it's all for a reason. And then other things like pledging to checking on each other, pledging to set boundaries and tend to our own self-care. So, we published that as a group, we just again and we put it on a Slack channel. So it's kind of our communication method inside the company. It was just intended to be for my organization but it started going viral and tens of thousands of IBM members started taking, started taking the pledge and ultimately caught the attention of our CEO and he loved it, shared it with his leadership team, which I'm a part of. And then also then went on LinkedIn and publicly took the pledge as well. Which then also got more excitement and interaction with other companies as well. So, grassroots effort all grounded in showing empathy and helping to make life just a little bit easier for everyone. >> So important, I'm going to look that up and I'm going to tell you as a person who speaks with many tech companies a week. A lot of businesses could take a lead from that and it gets really important and we are inviting each other into our homes and I see you're a big Broadway fan I'll have to ask you that after we wrap (giggles) Dominique I don't know how you're doing any of this with triplets. I only have two dogs (Dominique laughs) but I'd love to know this sense of urgency, that is everywhere you're living it. Paul talked about it with respect to the acceleration of transformation. How from your lens is IBM and IBM helping customers address the urgency, the need to pivot, the need to accelerate, the need to survive and thrive with respect to digital transformation actually getting it done? >> Right, thanks Lisa, so true our clients are really needing to and ready to move with haste. That that sense of urgency can be felt I think across every country, every market, every industry. And so we're really helping our clients accelerate their digital transformations and we do that through something that we call intelligent workflows. And so workflows in and of themselves are basically how organizations get work done. But intelligent workflows are how we infuse; predictive properties, automation, transparency, agility, end to end across a workflow. So, pulling those processes together so they're not solid anymore and infusing. So, simply put we bring intelligent workflows to our clients and it fundamentally reinvents how they're getting work done from a digital perspective, from a predictive perspective, from a transparency perspective. And I think what really stands apart when we deliver this with our clients in partnership with our clients is how it not only delivers value to the bottom line, to the top line it also actually delivers greater value to their employees, to the customers, to the partner to their broader ecosystem. And intelligent workflows are really made up of three core elements. The first is around better utilizing data. So, aggregating, analyzing, getting deeper insight out of data, and then using that insight not just for employees to make better decisions, but actually to support for emerging technologies to leverage. So we talked about AI, automation, IOT, blockchain, all of these technologies require vast amounts of data. And what we're able to bring both on the internal and external source from a data perspective really underpins what these emerging technologies can do. And then the third area is skills. Our skills that we bring to the table, but also our clients deep, deep expertise, partner expertise, expertise from the ecosystem at large and pulling all of that together, is how we're really able to help our clients accelerate their digital transformations because we're helping them shift, from a set of siloed static processes to an end-to-end workflow. We're helping them make fewer predictions based on the past historical data and actually taking more real-time action with real time insights. So, it really is a fundamental shift and how your work is getting done to really being able to provide that emerging technologies, data, deep skills-based end to end workflow. >> That word fundamental has such gravity. and I know we say data has gravity being fundamental in such an incredibly dynamic time is really challenging but I was looking through some of the notes that you guys provided me with. And in terms of what you just talked about, Dominique versus making a change to a silo, the benefits and making changes to a spectrum of integrated processes the values can be huge. In fact, I was reading that changing a single process like billing, for example might deliver up to 20% improved results. But integrating across multiple processes, like billing, collections, organizations can achieve double that up to 40%. And then there's more taking the intelligent workflow across all lead to cash. This was huge. Clients can get 50 to 70% more value from that. So that just shows that fundamental impact that intelligent workflows can make. >> Right, I mean, it really is when we see it really is about unlocking exponential value. So, when you think about crossing end to end workflow but also, really enhancing what clients are doing and what companies are doing today with those exponential technologies from kind of single use the automation POC here and AI application POC here, actually integrating those technologies together and applying them at scale. When I think intelligent workflows I think acceleration. I think exponential value. But I also really think about at scale. Because it's really the ability to apply these technologies the expertise at scale that allows us to start to unlock a lot of that value. >> So let's go over Paul, in the last few minutes that we have here I want to talk about IBM garage and how this is helping clients to really transform those workflows. Talk to me a little bit about what IBM garage is. I know it's not IBM garage band and I know it's been around since before the pandemic but help us understand what that is and how it's delivering value to customers. >> Well, first I'm going to be the first to invite you to join the IBM garage band, Lisa so we'd love to have you >> I'm in. no musical experience required... >> I like to sing, all right I mean (laughs) We're ready, we're ready for. So, let me talk to you about IBM garage and I do want to key on two words that Dominique was mentioning speed and scale. Because that's what our clients are really looking for when they're doing transformations around intelligent workflows. How can you transform at scale, but do that with speed. And that really becomes the critical issue. As Dominique mentioned, there's a lot of companies that can help you do a proof of concept do something in a few weeks that you can test an idea out and have something that's kind of like a throw away piece of work that maybe proves a point or just proves a point. But even if it does prove the point at that point you'd have to restart a new, to try to get something that you could actually scale either in the production technology environment or scale as a change across an organization. And that's where IBM garage comes in. It's all a way of helping our clients co-create, co-execute and then cooperate, innovating at scale. So, we use methods like design thinking inside of IBM we've trained several hundred thousand people on design thinking methods. We use technologies like neural and other things that help our clients co-create in a dynamic environment. And what's amazing for me is that, the cause of the way we were, we were doing work with clients in a garage with using IBM garage in a garage environment before the pandemic. And one of our clients Frito-Lay of North America, is an example where we've helped them innovate at scale and speed using IBM garage over a long period of time. And when the pandemic hit, we in fact were running 11 garages across 11 different workflow areas for them the pandemic hit and everyone was sent home. So, we all instantly overnight had to work from home together with relay. And what was great is that we were able to quickly adapt the garage method to working in a virtual world. To being able to run that same type of innovation and then use that innovation at scale in a virtual world, we did that overnight. And since that time which happened, that happened back in March of last year throughout the pandemic, we've run over 1500 different garage engagements with all of our clients all around the world in a virtual, in a virtual environment. It's just an incredible way, like I said to help our clients innovate at scale. >> That's fantastic, go ahead Dominique. >> Oh, sorry, was just said it's a great example, we partnered with FlightSafety International, they train pilots. And I think a great example of that speed and scale right is in less than 12 weeks due to the garage methodology and the partnership with FlightSafety, we created with them and launched an adaptive learning solution. So, a platform as well as a complete change to their training workflow such that they had personalized kind of real-time next best training for how they train their pilots for simulators. So, reducing their cycle time but also improving the training that their pilots get, which as people who normally travel, it's really important to us and everyone else. So, just a really good example, less than 12 weeks start to start to finish. >> Right, talk about acceleration. Paul, last question for you, we've got about 30 seconds left I know this is an ecosystem effort of IBM, it's ecosystem partners, it's Alliance partners. How are you helping align right partner with the right customer, the right use case? >> Yeah, it's great. And our CEO Arvind Krishna has really ushered in this era where we are all about the open ecosystem here at IBM and working with our ecosystem partners. In our services business we have partnerships with all the major, all the major technology players. We have a 45 year relationship with SAP. We've done more SAP S 400 implementations than anyone in the world. We've got the longest standing consulting relationship with Salesforce, we've got a unique relationship with Adobe, they're only services and technology partner in the ecosystem. And we just recently won three, procedures Partner Awards, with them and most recently we announced a partnership with Celonis which is an incredible process execution software company, process mining software company that's going to help us transform intelligent workflows in an accelerated way, embedded in our garage environment. So, ecosystem is critical to our success but more importantly, it's critical to our client success. We know that no one alone has the answers and no one alone can help anyone change. So, with this open ecosystem approach that we take and global business services and our business transformation services organization, we're able to make sure that we bring our clients the best of everyone's capabilities. Whether it's our technology, partners, our services IBM's own technology capabilities, all in the mix, all orchestrated in service to our client's needs all with the goal of driving superior business outcomes for them. >> And helping those customers in any industry to accelerate their business transformation with those intelligent workloads and a very dynamic time. This is a topic we could keep talking about unfortunately, we are out of time but thank you both for stopping by and sharing with me what's going on with respect to intelligent workflows. How the incremental exponential value it's helping organizations to deliver and all the work that IBM is doing to enable its customers to be thrivers of tomorrow. We appreciate talking to you >> Thanks Lisa. >> Thank you >> For Paul Papas and Dominique Dubois I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the CUBE's coverage of IBM Think the digital event experience. (gentle music)

>>From around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of IBM think 2021 brought to you by >>IBM. Welcome back to IBM Think 2021. This is the cubes ongoing coverage where we go out to the events, we extract the signal from the noise of course, virtually in this case now we're going to talk about ecosystems, partnerships in the flywheel, they deliver in the technology business and with me or Jason kelly, general manager, global strategic partnerships, IBM global business services and Mani Das Gupta, who is the vice president of marketing for IBM Global Business services folks. It's great to see you again in which we're face to face. But this will have to do >>good to see you Dave and uh same, I wish we were face to face but uh we'll we'll go with this >>soon. We're being patient, Jason. Let's start with you. You have a partner strategy. I wonder if you could sort of summarize that and tell us more about it. >>So it's interesting that we start with the strategy because you said we have a partner strategy dave and I'd say that the market has dictated back to us a partner strategy something that we it's not new and we didn't start it yesterday. It's something that we continue to evolve and build even stronger. This thought of a partner strategy is it nothing is better than the thought of a partner ship. And people say oh well you know you got to work together as one team and as a partner And it sounds almost as a 1-1 type relationship. Our strategies is much different than that. David our execution is even better and that that execution is focused on now. The requirement that the market our clients are showing to us and our strategic partners that one player can't deliver all their needs, they can't Design solution and deliver that from one place. It does take an ecosystem to the word that you called out. This thought of an ecosystem and our strategy and execution is focused on that. And the reason why I say it evolves is because the market will continue to evolve and this thought of being able to look at a client's let's call it a a workflow, let's call it a value chain from one end to the other, wherever they start their process to wherever it ultimately hits that end user. It's going to take many players to cover that. And then we, as IBM want to make sure that we are the general contractor of that capability with the ability to convene the right strategic partners, bring out the best value for that outcome, not just technology for technology's sake, but the outcome that the incline is looking for so that we bring value to our strategic partners and that in client. >>I think about when you talk about the value chain, you know, I'm imagining, you know, the business books years ago you see the conceptual value chain, you can certainly understand that you can put processes together to connect them and now you've got technology, I think of a P. I. S. It's it's really supports that everything gets accelerated and and uh money. I wonder if you could address some of the the go to market how this notion of of ecosystem which is so important, is impacting the way in which you go to market. >>Absolutely. So modern business, you know, demands a new approach to working the ecosystem. Thought that Jason was just alluding to, it's a mutual benefit of all these companies working together in the market, it's a mutual halo of the brands, so as responsible for the championship of the IBM and the global business services brand. I am very, very interested in this mutual working together. It should be a win win win, as we say in the market, it should be a win for our clients, first and foremost, it should be a win for our partners and it should be a win for IBM and we are working together right now on an approach to bring this, go to market strategy to life. >>So I wonder if we could maybe talk about how this actually works and and pull in some examples, uh you must have some favorites that that we can touch on. Uh is that, is that fair? Can we, can we name some names, >>sure names, always working debut, right. And it's always in context of reality that we can talk about, as I said, this execution and not just a strategy. And I'll start with probably what's right in the front of many people's minds as we're doing this virtually because of what because of an unfortunate pandemic, um, this disastrous loss of life and things that have taken us down a path. We go well, how do we, how do we address that? Well, any time there's a tough task, IBM raises its hand first. You know, whether it was putting a person on the moon and bringing them home safely or standing up a system behind the current Social Security Administration, you know, during the Depression, you pick it well here we are now. And why not start with that as an example? Because I think it calls out just what we mentioned here first day, this thought of a, of an ecosystem because the first challenge, how do we create uh and address the biggest data puzzle of our lives, which is how do we get this vaccine created in record time, which it was the fastest before that was four years. This was a matter of months. Visor created the first one out and then had to get it out to distribution. Behind. That is a wonderful partner of R. S. A. P. Trying to work with that. So us working with S. A. P. Along with Pfizer in order to figure out how to get that value chain. And some would say supply chain, but I'll address that in a second. But there's many players there. And so we were in the middle of that with fires are committed to saying, how do we do that with S. A. P. So now you see players working together as one ecosystem. But then think about the ecosystem that that's happening where you have a federal government agency, a state, a local, you have healthcare, life science industry, you have consumer industry. Oh wait a second day. This is getting very complicated, Right? Well, this is the thought of convening an ecosystem and this is what I'm telling you is our execution and it has worked well. And so it's it's it's happening now. We still it's we see it's still developing and being, being, you know, very productive in real time. But then I said there was another example and that's with me, you mani whomever you pick the consumer. Ultimately we are that outcome of of the value chain. That's why I said, I don't want to just call it a supply chain because at the end is a someone consuming and in this case we need a shot. And so we partnered with Salesforce, IBM and Salesforce saying, wait a minute, that's not a small task. It's not just get the content there and put it in someone's arm instead they're scheduling that must be done. There's follow up an entire case management like system sells force is a master at this, so work dot com team with IBM, we sit now let's get that part done for the right type of UI UX capability that the user experience, user interaction interface and then also in bringing another player in the ecosystem, one of ours Watson health along with our block changing, we brought together something called a Digital Health pass. So I've just talked about two ecosystems work multiple ecosystems working together. So you think of an ecosystem of ecosystems. I called out Blockchain technology and obviously supply chain but there's also a I I O T. So you start to see where look this is truly an orchestration effort. It has to happen with very well designed capability and so of course we master and design and tying that that entire ecosystem together and convening it so that we get to the right outcome you me money all getting into shot being healthy. That's a real time example of us working with an ecosystem and teeming with key strategic partners, >>you know, money, I mean Jason you're right. I mean pandemics been horrible, I have to say. I'm really thankful it didn't happen 20 years ago because it would have been like okay here's some big pcs and a modem and go ahead and figure it out. So I mean the tech industry has saved business. I mean with not only we mentioned ai automation data, uh even things basic things like security at the end point. I mean so many things and you're right, I mean IBM in particular, other large companies you mentioned ASAP you have taken the lead and it's really I don't money, I don't think the tech industry gets enough credit, but I wonder if there's some of your favorite, you know, partnerships that you can talk about. >>Yeah, so I'm gonna I'm gonna build on what you just said. Dave IBM is in this unique position amongst this ecosystem. Not only the fact that we have the world leading most innovative technologies to bring to bear, but we also have the consulting capabilities that go with it now to make any of these technologies work towards the solution that Jason was referring to in this digital health pass, it could be any other solution you would need to connect these disparate systems, sometimes make them work towards a common outcome to provide value to the client. So I think our role as IBM within this ecosystem is pretty unique in that we are able to bring both of these capabilities to bear. In terms of you know, you asked about favorite there are this is really a coop petition market where everybody has products, everybody has service is the most important thing is how how are we bringing them all together to serve the need or the need of the hour in this case, I would say one important thing in this. As you observe how these stories are panning out in an ecosystem in in part in a partnership, it is about the value that we provide to our clients together. So it's almost like a cell with model from from a go to market perspective, there is also a question of our products and services being delivered through our partners. Right? So think about the span and scope of what we do here. And so that's the sell through. And then of course we have our products running within our partner companies and our partner products, for example. Salesforce running within IBM. So this is a very interesting and a new way of doing business. I would say it's almost like the modern way of doing business with modernity. >>Well. And you mentioned cooperation. I mean you're you're part of IBM that will work with anybody because your customer first, whether it's a W. S. Microsoft oracle is a is a is a really tough competitor. But your customers are using oracle and they're using IBM. So I mean as a those are some good examples. I think of your point about cooper Titian. >>Absolutely. If you pick on any other client, I'll mention in this case. Delta, Delta was working with us on moving, being more agile. Now this pandemic has impacted the airline sector particularly hard, right With travel stopping and anything. So they are trying to get to a model which will help them scale up, scale down, be more agile will be more secure, be closer to their customers, try and understand how they can provide value to their customers and customers better. So we are working with Delta on moving them to cloud on the journey to cloud. Now that public cloud could be anything. The beauty of this model and a hybrid cloud approach is that you are able to put them on red hat open shift, you're able to do and package the services into a microservices kind of a model. You want to make sure all the applications are running on a portable, almost platform. Agnostic kind of a model. This is the beauty of this ecosystem that we are discussing is the ability to do what's right for the end customer at the end of the day, >>how about some of the like sass players, like some of the more prominent ones and we watched the ascendancy of service now and and, and work day, you mentioned Salesforce. How do you work with those guys? Obviously there's an Ai opportunity, but maybe you could add some, you know, color there. >>So I like the fact that you call out the different hyper scholars for example, uh whether it's a W. S, whether it's Microsoft, knowing that they have their own cloud instances, for example. And when you, when you mentioned, he had this happened a long time ago, you know, you start talking about the heft of the technology, I started thinking of all the truckloads of servers or whatever they have to pull up. We don't need that now because it can happen in the cloud and you don't have to pick one cloud or the other. And so when people say hybrid cloud, that's what comes out, you start to think of what I I call, you know, a hybrid of hybrids because I told you before, you know, these roles are changing. People aren't just buyers or suppliers, they're both. And then you start to say what we're different people supplying well in that ecosystem, we know there's not gonna be one player, there's gonna be multiple. So we partner by doing just what monty called out is this thought of integrating in hybrid environments on hybrid platforms with hybrid clouds, Multi clouds, maybe I want something on my premises, something somewhere else. So in giving that capability that flexibility we empower and this is what's doing that cooperation, we empower our partners are strategic partners, we want them to be better with us. And this is this thought of being able to actually bring more together and move faster which is almost counterintuitive. You're like wait a minute you're adding more players but you're moving faster. Exactly because we have the capability to integrate those those technologies and get that outcome that monty mentioned, >>I would add to this one. Jason you mentioned something very very interesting. I think if you want to go just fast you go alone but if you want to go further, you go together. And that is the core of our point of view in this case is that we want to go further and we want to create value that is long lasting. >>What about like so I get the technology players and there may be things that you do that others don't or vice versa. So the gap fillers etcetera. But what about how to maybe customers that they get involved? Perhaps government agencies, may they be they be customer or an N. G. O. As another example, Are they part of this value chain? Part of this ecosystem? >>Absolutely. I'll give you I'll stick with the same example when I mentioned a digital health past that Digital Health Pass is something that we have as IBM and it's a credential Think of it as a health credential not a vaccine passport because it could be used for a test for a negative test on Covid, it could be used for antibiotics. So if you have this credential, it's something that we, as IBM created years back and we were using it for learning. When you think of getting people uh certifications versus a four year diploma, how do we get people into the workforce? That was what was original. That was a jenny Rometty thought, let's focus on new collar workers. So we had this asset that we'd already created and then it's wait, there's a place for it to work with, with health, with validation verification on someone's option, it's optional. They choose it. Hey, I want to do it this way. Well, the state of new york said that they wanted to do it that way and they said, listen, we are going to have a digital health pass for all of our, all of our new york citizens and we want to make sure that it's equitable, it could be printed or on a screen and we want it to be designed in this way and we wanted to work on this platform and we want to be able to, to work with the strategic Partners, a Salesforce and ASAP and work. I mean, I can just keep and we said okay let's do this. And this is the start of collaboration and doing it by design. So we haven't lost that day but this only brings it to the forefront just as you said, yes, that is what we want. We want to make sure that in this ecosystem we have a way to ensure that we are bringing together convening not just point products or different service providers but taking them together and getting the best outcome so that that end user can have it configured in the way that they want it >>guys, we got to leave it there but it's clear you're helping your customers and your partners on this this digital transformation journey that we already we all talk about. You get this massive portfolio of capabilities, deep, deep expertise, I love the hybrid cloud and AI Focus, Jason and money really appreciate you coming back in the cubes. Great to see you both. >>Thank you so much. Dave Fantastic. All >>Right. And thank you for watching everybody's day Vigilante for the Cuban. Our continuous coverage of IBM, think 2021, the virtual edition. Keep it right there. Yeah. Mhm. Mhm. >>Mhm.

>> Announcer: From the Cube's studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from The Cube and ETR. This is "Breaking Analysis" with Dave Vellante. >> Exactly one week after Pat Gelsinger's announcement of his plans to reinvent Intel. Arm announced version nine of its architecture and laid out its vision for the next decade. We believe this vision is extremely strong as it combines an end-to-end capability from Edge to Cloud, to the data center, to the home and everything in between. Arms aspirations are ambitious and powerful. Leveraging its business model, ecosystem and software compatibility with previous generations. Hello every one and welcome to this week's Wikibon Cube Insights powered by ETR. And this breaking analysis will explain why we think this announcement is so important and what it means for Intel and the broader technology landscape. We'll also share with you some feedback that we received from the Cube Community on last week's episode and a little inside baseball on how Intel, IBM, Samsung, TSMC and the U.S. government might be thinking about the shifting landscape of semiconductor technology. Now, there were two notable announcements this week that were directly related to Intel's announcement of March 23rd. The Armv9 news and TSMC's plans to invest a $100 billion in chip manufacturing and development over the next three years. That is a big number. It appears to tramp Intel's plan $20 billion investment to launch two new fabs in the U.S. starting in 2024. You may remember back in 2019, Samsung pledged to invest a $116 billion to diversify its production beyond memory trip, memory chips. Why are all these companies getting so aggressive? And won't this cause a glut in chips? Well, first, China looms large and aims to dominate its local markets, which in turn is going to confer advantages globally. The second, there's a huge chip shortage right now. And the belief is that it's going to continue through the decade and possibly beyond. We are seeing a new inflection point in the demand as we discussed last week. Stemming from digital, IOT, cloud, autos in new use cases in the home as so well presented by Sarjeet Johal in our community. As to the glut, these manufacturers believe that demand will outstrip supply indefinitely. And I understand that a lack of manufacturing capacity is actually more deadly than an oversupply. Look, if there's a glut, manufacturers can cut production and take the financial hit. Whereas capacity constraints mean you can miss entire cycles of growth and really miss out on the demand and the cost reductions. So, all these manufacturers are going for it. Now let's talk about Arm, its approach and the announcements that it made this week. Now last week, we talked about how Pat Gelsinger his vision of a system on package was an attempt to leapfrog system on chip SOC, while Arm is taking a similar system approach. But in our view, it's even broader than the vision laid out by Pat at Intel. Arm is targeting a wide variety of use cases that are shown here. Arm's fundamental philosophy is that the future will require highly specialized chips and Intel as you recall from Pat's announcement, would agree. But Arm historically takes an ecosystem approach that is different from Intel's model. Arm is all about enabling the production of specialized chips to really fit a specific application. For example, think about the amount of AI going on iPhones. They move if I remember from fingerprint to face recognition. This requires specialized neural processing units, NPUs that are designed by Apple for that particular use case. Arm is facilitating the creation of these specialized chips to be designed and produced by the ecosystem. Intel on the other hand has historically taken a one size fits all approach. Built around the x86. The Intel's design has always been about improving the processor. For example, in terms of speed, density, adding vector processing to accommodate AI, et cetera. And Intel does all the design and the manufacturing in any specialization for the ecosystem is done by Intel. Much of the value, that's added from the ecosystem is frankly been bending metal or adding displays or other features at the margin. But, the advantage is that the x86 architecture is well understood. It's consistent, reliable, and let's face it. Most enterprise software runs on x86. So, but very, very different models historically, which we heard from Gelsinger last week they're going to change with a new trusted foundry strategy. Now let's go through an example that might help explain the power of Arm's model. Let's say, your AWS and you're doing graviton. Designing graviton and graviton2. Or Apple, designing the M1 chip, or Tesla designing its own chip, or any other company in in any one of these use cases that are shown here. Tesla is a really good example. In order to optimize for video processing, Tesla needed to add specialized code firmware in the NPU for it's specific use case within autos. It was happy to take off the shelf CPU or GPU or whatever, and leverage Arm's standards there. And then it added its own value in the NPU. So the advantage of this model is Tesla could go from tape out in less or, or, or or in less than a year versus get the tape out in less than a year versus what would normally take many years. Arm is, think of Arm is like customize a Lego blocks that enable unique value add by the ecosystem with a much faster time to market. So like I say, the Tesla goes from logical tape out if you will, to Samsung and then says, okay run this against your manufacturing process. And it should all work as advertised by Arm. Tesla, interestingly, just as an aside chose the 14 nanometer process to keep its costs down. It didn't need the latest and greatest density. Okay, so you can see big difference in philosophies historically between Arm and Intel. And you can see Intel vectoring toward the Arm model based on what Gelsinger said last week for its foundry business. Essentially it has to. Now, Arm announced a new Arm architecture, Armv9. v9 is backwards compatible with previous generations. Perhaps Arm learned from Intel's failed, Itanium effort for those remember that word. Had no backward compatibility and it really floundered. As well, Arm adds some additional capabilities. And today we're going to focus on the two areas that have highlighted, machine learning piece and security. I'll take note of the call out, 300 billion chips. That's Arm's vision. That's a lot. And we've said, before, Arm's way for volumes are 10X those of x86. Volume, we sound like a broken record. Volume equals cost reduction. We'll come back to that a little bit later. Now let's have a word on AI and machine learning. Arm is betting on AI and ML. Big as are many others. And this chart really shows why, it's a graphic that shows ETR data and spending momentum and pervasiveness in the dataset across all the different sectors that ETR tracks within its taxonomy. Note that ML/AI gets the top spot on the vertical axis, which represents net score. That's a measure of spending momentum or spending velocity. The horizontal axis is market share presence in the dataset. And we give this sector four stars to signify it's consistent lead in the data. So pretty reasonable bet by Arm. But the other area that we're going to talk about is security. And its vision day, Arm talked about confidential compute architecture and these things called realms. Note in the left-hand side, showing data traveling all over the different use cases and around the world and the call-out from the CISO below, it's a large public airline CISO that spoke at an ETR Venn round table. And this individual noted that the shifting end points increase the threat vectors. We all know that. Arm said something that really resonated. Specifically, they said today, there's far too much trust on the OS and the hypervisor that are running these applications. And their broad access to data is a weakness. Arm's concept of realms as shown in the right-hand side, underscores the company strategy to remove the assumption that privileged software. Like the hypervisor needs to be able to see the data. So by creating realms, in a virtualized multi-tenant environment, data can be more protected from memory leaks which of course is a major opportunity for hackers that they exploit. So it's a nice concept in a way for the system to isolate attendance data from other users. Okay, we want, we want to share some feedback that we got last week from the community on our analysis of Intel. A tech exec from city pointed out that, Intel really didn't miss a mobile, as we said, it really missed smartphones. In fact, whell, this is a kind of a minor distinction, it's important to recognize we think. Because Intel facilitated WIFI with Centrino, under the direction of Paul Alini. Who by the way, was not an engineer. I think he was the first non-engineer to be the CEO of Intel. He was a marketing person by background. Ironically, Intel's work in wifi connectivity enabled, actually enabled the smartphone revolution. And maybe that makes the smartphone missed by Intel all that more egregious, I don't know. Now the other piece of feedback we received related to our IBM scenario and our three-way joint venture prediction bringing together Intel, IBM, and Samsung in a triumvirate where Intel brings the foundry and it's process manufacturing. IBM brings its dis-aggregated memory technology and Samsung brings its its volume and its knowledge of of volume down the learning curve. Let's start with IBM. Remember we said that IBM with power 10 has the best technology in terms of this notion of dis-aggregating compute from memory and sharing memory in a pool across different processor types. So a few things in this regard, IBM when it restructured its micro electronics business under Ginni Rometty, catalyzed the partnership with global foundries and you know, this picture in the upper right it shows the global foundries facility outside of Albany, New York in Malta. And the partnership included AMD and Samsung. But we believe that global foundries is backed away from some of its contractual commitments with IBM causing a bit of a rift between the companies and leaving a hole in your original strategy. And evidently AMD hasn't really leaned in to move the needle in any way and so the New York foundry, is it a bit of a state of limbo with respect to its original vision. Now, well, Arvind Krishna was the face of the Intel announcement. It clearly has deep knowledge of IBM semiconductor strategy. Dario Gill, we think is a key player in the mix. He's the senior vice president director of IBM research. And it is in a position to affect some knowledge sharing and maybe even knowledge transfer with Intel possibly as it relates to disaggregated architecture. His questions remain as to how open IBM will be. And how protected it will be with its IP. It's got, as we said, last week, it's got to have an incentive to do so. Now why would IBM do that? Well, it wants to compete more effectively with VMware who has done a great job leveraging x86 and that's the biggest competitor in threat to open shift. So Arvind needs Intel chips to really execute on IBM's cloud strategy. Because almost all of IBM's customers are running apps on x86. So IBM's cloud and hybrid cloud. Strategy really need to leverage that Intel partnership. Now Intel for its part has great FinFET technology. FinFET is a tactic goes beyond CMOs. You all mainframes might remember when IBM burned the boat on ECL, Emitter-coupled Logic. And then moved to CMOs for its mainframes. Well, this is the next gen beyond, and it could give Intel a leg up on AMD's chiplet intellectual properties. Especially as it relates to latency. And there could be some benefits there for IBM. So maybe there's a quid pro quo going on. Now, where it really gets interesting is New York Senator, Chuck Schumer, is keen on building up an alternative to Silicon Valley in New York now it is Silicon Alley. So it's possible that Intel, who by the way has really good process technology. This is an aside, it really allowed TSMC to run the table with the whole seven nanometers versus 10 minute nanometer narrative. TSMC was at seven nanometer. Intel was at 10 nanometer. And really, we've said in the past that Intel's 10 nanometer tech is pretty close to TSMC seven. So Intel's ahead in that regard, even though in terms of, you know, the intervener thickness density, it's it's not, you know. These are sort of games that the semiconductor companies play, but you know it's possible that Intel with the U.S. government and IBM and Samsung could make a play for that New York foundry as part of Intel's trusted foundry strategy and kind of reshuffle that deck in Albany. Sounds like a "Game of Thrones," doesn't it? By the way, TSMC has been so consumed servicing Apple for five nanometer and eventually four nanometer that it's dropped the ball on some of its other's customers, namely Nvidia. And remember, a long-term competitiveness and cost reductions, they all come down to volume. And we think that Intel can't get to volume without an Arm strategy. Okay, so maybe the JV, the Joint Venture that we talked about, maybe we're out on a limb there and that's a stretch. And perhaps Samsung's not willing to play ball, given it's made huge investments in fabs and infrastructure and other resources, locally, but we think it's still viable scenario because we think Samsung definitely would covet a presence in the United States. No good to do that directly but maybe a partnership makes more sense in terms of gaining ground on TSMC. But anyway, let's say Intel can become a trusted foundry with the help of IBM and the U.S. government. Maybe then it could compete on volume. Well, how would that work? Well, let's say Nvidia, let's say they're not too happy with TSMC. Maybe with entertain Intel as a second source. Would that do it? In and of itself, no. But what about AWS and Google and Facebook? Maybe this is a way to placate the U.S. government and call off the antitrust dogs. Hey, we'll give Intel Foundry our business to secure America's semiconductor leadership and future and pay U.S. government. Why don't you chill out, back off a little bit. Microsoft even though, you know, it's not getting as much scrutiny from the U.S. government, it's anti trustee is maybe perhaps are behind it, who knows. But I think Microsoft would be happy to play ball as well. Now, would this give Intel a competitive volume posture? Yes, we think it would, for sure. If it can gain the trust of these companies and the volume we think would be there. But as we've said, currently, this is a very, very long shot because of the, the, the new strategy, the distance the difference in the Foundry business all those challenges that we laid out last week, it's going to take years to play out. But the dots are starting to connect in this scenario and the stakes are exceedingly high hence the importance of the U.S. government. Okay, that's it for now. Thanks to the community for your comments and insights. And thanks again to David Floyer whose analysis around Arm and semiconductors. And this work that he's done for the past decade is of tremendous help. Remember I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. And these episodes are all available as podcasts, just search for braking analysis podcast and you can always connect on Twitter. You can hit the chat right here or this live event or email me at david.vellante@siliconangle.com. Look, I always appreciate the comments on LinkedIn and Clubhouse. You can follow me so you're notified when we start a room and riff on these topics as well as others. And don't forget to check out etr.plus where all the survey data. This is Dave Vellante for the Cube Insights powered by ETR. Be well, and we'll see you next time. (cheerful music) (cheerful music)

>> From the Cube's studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from The Cube and ETR. This is "Breaking Analysis" with Dave Vellante. >> Exactly one week after Pat Gelsinger's announcement of his plans to reinvent Intel. Arm announced version nine of its architecture and laid out its vision for the next decade. We believe this vision is extremely strong as it combines an end-to-end capability from Edge to Cloud, to the data center, to the home and everything in between. Arms aspirations are ambitious and powerful. Leveraging its business model, ecosystem and software compatibility with previous generations. Hello every one and welcome to this week's Wikibon Cube Insights powered by ETR. And this breaking analysis will explain why we think this announcement is so important and what it means for Intel and the broader technology landscape. We'll also share with you some feedback that we received from the Cube Community on last week's episode and a little inside baseball on how Intel, IBM, Samsung, TSMC and the U.S. government might be thinking about the shifting landscape of semiconductor technology. Now, there were two notable announcements this week that were directly related to Intel's announcement of March 23rd. The Armv9 news and TSMC's plans to invest a $100 billion in chip manufacturing and development over the next three years. That is a big number. It appears to tramp Intel's plan $20 billion investment to launch two new fabs in the U.S. starting in 2024. You may remember back in 2019, Samsung pledged to invest a $116 billion to diversify its production beyond memory trip, memory chips. Why are all these companies getting so aggressive? And won't this cause a glut in chips? Well, first, China looms large and aims to dominate its local markets, which in turn is going to confer advantages globally. The second, there's a huge chip shortage right now. And the belief is that it's going to continue through the decade and possibly beyond. We are seeing a new inflection point in the demand as we discussed last week. Stemming from digital, IOT, cloud, autos in new use cases in the home as so well presented by Sarjeet Johal in our community. As to the glut, these manufacturers believe that demand will outstrip supply indefinitely. And I understand that a lack of manufacturing capacity is actually more deadly than an oversupply. Look, if there's a glut, manufacturers can cut production and take the financial hit. Whereas capacity constraints mean you can miss entire cycles of growth and really miss out on the demand and the cost reductions. So, all these manufacturers are going for it. Now let's talk about Arm, its approach and the announcements that it made this week. Now last week, we talked about how Pat Gelsinger his vision of a system on package was an attempt to leapfrog system on chip SOC, while Arm is taking a similar system approach. But in our view, it's even broader than the vision laid out by Pat at Intel. Arm is targeting a wide variety of use cases that are shown here. Arm's fundamental philosophy is that the future will require highly specialized chips and Intel as you recall from Pat's announcement, would agree. But Arm historically takes an ecosystem approach that is different from Intel's model. Arm is all about enabling the production of specialized chips to really fit a specific application. For example, think about the amount of AI going on iPhones. They move if I remember from fingerprint to face recognition. This requires specialized neural processing units, NPUs that are designed by Apple for that particular use case. Arm is facilitating the creation of these specialized chips to be designed and produced by the ecosystem. Intel on the other hand has historically taken a one size fits all approach. Built around the x86. The Intel's design has always been about improving the processor. For example, in terms of speed, density, adding vector processing to accommodate AI, et cetera. And Intel does all the design and the manufacturing in any specialization for the ecosystem is done by Intel. Much of the value, that's added from the ecosystem is frankly been bending metal or adding displays or other features at the margin. But, the advantage is that the x86 architecture is well understood. It's consistent, reliable, and let's face it. Most enterprise software runs on x86. So, but very, very different models historically, which we heard from Gelsinger last week they're going to change with a new trusted foundry strategy. Now let's go through an example that might help explain the power of Arm's model. Let's say, your AWS and you're doing graviton. Designing graviton and graviton2. Or Apple, designing the M1 chip, or Tesla designing its own chip, or any other company in in any one of these use cases that are shown here. Tesla is a really good example. In order to optimize for video processing, Tesla needed to add specialized code firmware in the NPU for it's specific use case within autos. It was happy to take off the shelf CPU or GPU or whatever, and leverage Arm's standards there. And then it added its own value in the NPU. So the advantage of this model is Tesla could go from tape out in less or, or, or or in less than a year versus get the tape out in less than a year versus what would normally take many years. Arm is, think of Arm is like customize a Lego blocks that enable unique value add by the ecosystem with a much faster time to market. So like I say, the Tesla goes from logical tape out if you will, to Samsung and then says, okay run this against your manufacturing process. And it should all work as advertised by Arm. Tesla, interestingly, just as an aside chose the 14 nanometer process to keep its costs down. It didn't need the latest and greatest density. Okay, so you can see big difference in philosophies historically between Arm and Intel. And you can see Intel vectoring toward the Arm model based on what Gelsinger said last week for its foundry business. Essentially it has to. Now, Arm announced a new Arm architecture, Armv9. v9 is backwards compatible with previous generations. Perhaps Arm learned from Intel's failed, Itanium effort for those remember that word. Had no backward compatibility and it really floundered. As well, Arm adds some additional capabilities. And today we're going to focus on the two areas that have highlighted, machine learning piece and security. I'll take note of the call out, 300 billion chips. That's Arm's vision. That's a lot. And we've said, before, Arm's way for volumes are 10X those of x86. Volume, we sound like a broken record. Volume equals cost reduction. We'll come back to that a little bit later. Now let's have a word on AI and machine learning. Arm is betting on AI and ML. Big as are many others. And this chart really shows why, it's a graphic that shows ETR data and spending momentum and pervasiveness in the dataset across all the different sectors that ETR tracks within its taxonomy. Note that ML/AI gets the top spot on the vertical axis, which represents net score. That's a measure of spending momentum or spending velocity. The horizontal axis is market share presence in the dataset. And we give this sector four stars to signify it's consistent lead in the data. So pretty reasonable bet by Arm. But the other area that we're going to talk about is security. And its vision day, Arm talked about confidential compute architecture and these things called realms. Note in the left-hand side, showing data traveling all over the different use cases and around the world and the call-out from the CISO below, it's a large public airline CISO that spoke at an ETR Venn round table. And this individual noted that the shifting end points increase the threat vectors. We all know that. Arm said something that really resonated. Specifically, they said today, there's far too much trust on the OS and the hypervisor that are running these applications. And their broad access to data is a weakness. Arm's concept of realms as shown in the right-hand side, underscores the company strategy to remove the assumption that privileged software. Like the hypervisor needs to be able to see the data. So by creating realms, in a virtualized multi-tenant environment, data can be more protected from memory leaks which of course is a major opportunity for hackers that they exploit. So it's a nice concept in a way for the system to isolate attendance data from other users. Okay, we want, we want to share some feedback that we got last week from the community on our analysis of Intel. A tech exec from city pointed out that, Intel really didn't miss a mobile, as we said, it really missed smartphones. In fact, whell, this is a kind of a minor distinction, it's important to recognize we think. Because Intel facilitated WIFI with Centrino, under the direction of Paul Alini. Who by the way, was not an engineer. I think he was the first non-engineer to be the CEO of Intel. He was a marketing person by background. Ironically, Intel's work in wifi connectivity enabled, actually enabled the smartphone revolution. And maybe that makes the smartphone missed by Intel all that more egregious, I don't know. Now the other piece of feedback we received related to our IBM scenario and our three-way joint venture prediction bringing together Intel, IBM, and Samsung in a triumvirate where Intel brings the foundry and it's process manufacturing. IBM brings its dis-aggregated memory technology and Samsung brings its its volume and its knowledge of of volume down the learning curve. Let's start with IBM. Remember we said that IBM with power 10 has the best technology in terms of this notion of dis-aggregating compute from memory and sharing memory in a pool across different processor types. So a few things in this regard, IBM when it restructured its micro electronics business under Ginni Rometty, catalyzed the partnership with global foundries and you know, this picture in the upper right it shows the global foundries facility outside of Albany, New York in Malta. And the partnership included AMD and Samsung. But we believe that global foundries is backed away from some of its contractual commitments with IBM causing a bit of a rift between the companies and leaving a hole in your original strategy. And evidently AMD hasn't really leaned in to move the needle in any way and so the New York foundry, is it a bit of a state of limbo with respect to its original vision. Now, well, Arvind Krishna was the face of the Intel announcement. It clearly has deep knowledge of IBM semiconductor strategy. Dario Gill, we think is a key player in the mix. He's the senior vice president director of IBM research. And it is in a position to affect some knowledge sharing and maybe even knowledge transfer with Intel possibly as it relates to disaggregated architecture. His questions remain as to how open IBM will be. And how protected it will be with its IP. It's got, as we said, last week, it's got to have an incentive to do so. Now why would IBM do that? Well, it wants to compete more effectively with VMware who has done a great job leveraging x86 and that's the biggest competitor in threat to open shift. So Arvind needs Intel chips to really execute on IBM's cloud strategy. Because almost all of IBM's customers are running apps on x86. So IBM's cloud and hybrid cloud. Strategy really need to leverage that Intel partnership. Now Intel for its part has great FinFET technology. FinFET is a tactic goes beyond CMOs. You all mainframes might remember when IBM burned the boat on ECL, Emitter-coupled Logic. And then moved to CMOs for its mainframes. Well, this is the next gen beyond, and it could give Intel a leg up on AMD's chiplet intellectual properties. Especially as it relates to latency. And there could be some benefits there for IBM. So maybe there's a quid pro quo going on. Now, where it really gets interesting is New York Senator, Chuck Schumer, is keen on building up an alternative to Silicon Valley in New York now it is Silicon Alley. So it's possible that Intel, who by the way has really good process technology. This is an aside, it really allowed TSMC to run the table with the whole seven nanometers versus 10 minute nanometer narrative. TSMC was at seven nanometer. Intel was at 10 nanometer. And really, we've said in the past that Intel's 10 nanometer tech is pretty close to TSMC seven. So Intel's ahead in that regard, even though in terms of, you know, the intervener thickness density, it's it's not, you know. These are sort of games that the semiconductor companies play, but you know it's possible that Intel with the U.S. government and IBM and Samsung could make a play for that New York foundry as part of Intel's trusted foundry strategy and kind of reshuffle that deck in Albany. Sounds like a "Game of Thrones," doesn't it? By the way, TSMC has been so consumed servicing Apple for five nanometer and eventually four nanometer that it's dropped the ball on some of its other's customers, namely Nvidia. And remember, a long-term competitiveness and cost reductions, they all come down to volume. And we think that Intel can't get to volume without an Arm strategy. Okay, so maybe the JV, the Joint Venture that we talked about, maybe we're out on a limb there and that's a stretch. And perhaps Samsung's not willing to play ball, given it's made huge investments in fabs and infrastructure and other resources, locally, but we think it's still viable scenario because we think Samsung definitely would covet a presence in the United States. No good to do that directly but maybe a partnership makes more sense in terms of gaining ground on TSMC. But anyway, let's say Intel can become a trusted foundry with the help of IBM and the U.S. government. Maybe then it could compete on volume. Well, how would that work? Well, let's say Nvidia, let's say they're not too happy with TSMC. Maybe with entertain Intel as a second source. Would that do it? In and of itself, no. But what about AWS and Google and Facebook? Maybe this is a way to placate the U.S. government and call off the antitrust dogs. Hey, we'll give Intel Foundry our business to secure America's semiconductor leadership and future and pay U.S. government. Why don't you chill out, back off a little bit. Microsoft even though, you know, it's not getting as much scrutiny from the U.S. government, it's anti trustee is maybe perhaps are behind it, who knows. But I think Microsoft would be happy to play ball as well. Now, would this give Intel a competitive volume posture? Yes, we think it would, for sure. If it can gain the trust of these companies and the volume we think would be there. But as we've said, currently, this is a very, very long shot because of the, the, the new strategy, the distance the difference in the Foundry business all those challenges that we laid out last week, it's going to take years to play out. But the dots are starting to connect in this scenario and the stakes are exceedingly high hence the importance of the U.S. government. Okay, that's it for now. Thanks to the community for your comments and insights. And thanks again to David Floyer whose analysis around Arm and semiconductors. And this work that he's done for the past decade is of tremendous help. Remember I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. And these episodes are all available as podcasts, just search for braking analysis podcast and you can always connect on Twitter. You can hit the chat right here or this live event or email me at david.vellante@siliconangle.com. Look, I always appreciate the comments on LinkedIn and Clubhouse. You can follow me so you're notified when we start a room and riff on these topics as well as others. And don't forget to check out etr.plus where all the survey data. This is Dave Vellante for the Cube Insights powered by ETR. Be well, and we'll see you next time. (cheerful music) (cheerful music)

>> Narrator: From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto, in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR, this is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> Tech spending is poised to rebound as the economy reopens in 2021. CIOs and IT buyers, they expect a 4% increase in 2021 spending based on ETR's latest surveys. And we believe that number will actually be higher, in the six to 7% range even. The big drivers are continued fine tuning of, and investment in digital strategies, for example, cloud security, AI data and automation. Application modernization initiatives continue to attract attention, and we also expect more support with work from home demand, for instance laptops, et cetera. And we're even seeing pent-up demand for data center infrastructure and other major risks to this scenario, they remain the pace of the reopening, of course, no surprise there, however, even if there are speed bumps to the vaccine rollout and achieving herd immunity, we believe tech spending will grow at least two points faster than GDP, which is currently forecast at 4.1%. Hello and welcome to this week's (indistinct) on Cube Insights powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis, we want to update you on our latest macro view of the market, and then highlight a few key sectors that we've been watching, namely cloud with a particular drill down on Microsoft and AWS, security, database, and then we'll look at Dell and VMware as a proxy for the data center. Now here's a look at what IT buyers and CIOs think. This chart shows the latest survey data from ETR and it compares the December results with the year earlier survey. Consistent with our earlier reporting, we see a kind of a swoosh-like recovery with a slower first half and accelerating in the second half. And we think that CIOs are being prudently conservative, 'cause if GDP grows at 4% plus, we fully expect tech spending to outperform. Now let's look at the factors that really drive some of our thinking on that. This is data that we've shown before it asks buyers if they're initiating any of the following strategies in the coming quarter, in the face of the pandemic and you can see there's no change in work from home, really no change in business travel, but hiring freezes, freezing new deployments, these continue to trend down. New deployments continue to be up, layoffs are trending down and hiring is also up. So these are all good signs. Now having said that, one part of our scenario assumes workers return and the current 75% of employees that work from home will moderate by the second half to around 35%. Now that's double the historical average, and that large percentage, that will necessitate continued work from home infrastructure spend, we think and drive HQ spending as well in the data center. Now the caveat of course is that lots of companies are downsizing corporate headquarters, so that could weigh on this dual investment premise that we have, but generally with the easy compare in these tailwinds, we expect solid growth in this coming year. Now, what sectors are showing growth? Well, the same big four that we've been talking about for 10 months, machine intelligence or AI/ML, RPA and broader automation agendas, these lead the pack along with containers and cloud. These four, you can see here above that red dotted line at 40%, that's a 40% net score which is a measure of spending momentum. Now cloud, it's the most impressive because what you see in this chart is spending momentum or net score in the vertical axis and market share or pervasiveness in the data center on the horizontal axis. Now cloud it stands out, as it's has a large market share and it's got spending velocity tied to it. So, I mean that is really impressive for that sector. Now, what we want to do here is do a quick update on the big three cloud revenue for 2020. And so we're looking back at 2020, and this really updates the chart that we showed last week at our CUBE on Cloud event, the only differences Azure, Microsoft reported and this chart shows IaaS estimates for the big three, we had had Microsoft Azure in Q4 at 6.8 billion, it came in at 6.9 billion based on our cloud model. Now the points we previously made on this chart, they stand out. AWS is the biggest, and it's growing more slowly but it throws off more absolute dollars, Azure grew 48% sent last quarter, we had it slightly lower and so we've adjusted that and that's incredible. And Azure continues to close that gap on AWS and we'll see how AWS and Google do when they report next week. We definitely think based on Microsoft result that AWS has upside to these numbers, especially given the Q4 push, year end, and the continued transition to cloud and even Google we think can benefit. Now what we want to do is take a closer look at Microsoft and AWS and drill down into those two cloud leaders. So take a look at this graphic, it shows ETR's survey data for net score across Microsoft's portfolio, and we've selected a couple of key areas. Virtually every sector is in the green and has forward momentum relative to the October survey. Power Automate, which is RPA, Teams is off the chart, Azure itself we've reported on that, is the linchpin of Microsoft's innovation strategy, serverless, AI analytics, containers, they all have over 60% net scores. Skype is the only dog and Microsoft is doing a fabulous job of transitioning its customers to Teams away from Skype. I think there are still people using Skype. Yes, I know it's crazy. Now let's take a look at the AWS portfolio drill down, there's a similar story here for Amazon and virtually all sectors are well into the 50% net scores or above. Yeah, it's lower than Microsoft, but still AWS, very, very large, so across the board strength for the company and it's impressive for a $45 billion cloud company. Only Chime is lagging behind AWS and maybe, maybe AWS needs a Teams-like version to migrate folks off of Chime. Although you do see it's an uptick there relative to the last survey, but still not burning the house down. Now let's take a look at security. It's a sector that we've highlighted for several quarters, and it's really undergoing massive change. This of course was accelerated by the work from home trend, and this chart ranks the CIO and CSO priorities for security, and here you see identity access management stands out. So this bodes well for the likes of Okta and SailPoint, of course endpoint security also ranks highly, and that's good news for a company like CrowdStrike or Forescout, Carbon Black, which was acquired by VMware. And you can see network security is right there as well, I mean, it's all kind of network security but Cisco, Palo Alto, Fortinet are some of the names that we follow closely there, and cloud security, Microsoft, Amazon and Zscaler also stands out. Now, what we want to do now is drill in a little bit and take a look at the vendor map for security. So this chart shows one of our favorite views, it's getting net score or spending momentum on the vertical axis and market share on the horizontal. Okta, note in the upper right of that little chart there that table, Okta remains the highest net score of all the players that we're showing here, SailPoint and CrowdStrike definitely looming large, Microsoft continues to be impressive because of its both presence, you can see that dot in the upper right there and it's momentum, and you know, for context, we've included some of the legacy names like RSA and McAfee and Symantec, you could see them in the red as is IBM, and then the rest of the pack, they're solidly in the green, we've said this before security remains a priority, it's a very strong market, CIOs and CSOs have to spend on it, they're accelerating that spending, and it's a fragmented space with lots of legitimate players, and it's undergoing a major change, and with the SolarWinds hack, it's on everyone's radar even more than we've seen with earlier high profile breaches, we have some other data that we'll share in the future, on that front, but in the interest of time, we'll press on here. Now, one of the other sectors that's undergoing significant changes, database. And so if you take a look at the latest survey data, so we're showing that same xy-view, the first thing that we call your attention to is Snowflake, and we've been reporting on this company for years now, and sharing ETR data for well over a year. The company continues to impress us with spending momentum, this last survey it increased from 75% last quarter to 83% in the latest survey. This is unbelievable because having now done this for quite some time, many, many quarters, these numbers are historically not sustainable and very rarely do you see that kind of increase from the mid-70s up into the '80s. So now AWS is the other big call out here. This is a company that has become a database powerhouse, and they've done that from a standing start and they've become a leader in the market. Google's momentum is also impressive, especially with it's technical chops, it gets very, very high marks for things like BigQuery, and so you can see it's got momentum, it does not have the presence in the market to the right, that for instance AWS and Microsoft have, and that brings me to Microsoft is also notable, because it's so large and look at the momentum, it's got very, very strong spending momentum as well, so look, this database market it's seeing dramatically different strategies. Take Amazon for example, it's all about the right tool for the right job, they get a lot of different data stores with specialized databases, for different use cases, Aurora for transaction processing, Redshift for analytics, I want a key value store, hey, some DynamoDB, graph database? You got little Neptune, document database? They've got that, they got time series database, so very, very granular portfolio. You got Oracle on the other end of the spectrum. It along with several others are converging capabilities and that's a big trend that we're seeing across the board, into, sometimes we call it a mono database instead of one database fits all. Now Microsoft's world kind of largely revolves around SQL and Azure SQL but it does offer other options. But the big difference between Microsoft and AWS is AWS' approach is really to maximize the granularity in the technical flexibility with fine-grained access to primitives and APIs, that's their philosophy, whereas Microsoft with synapse for example, they're willing to build that abstraction layer as a means of simplifying the experiences. AWS, they've been reluctant to do this, their approach favors optionality and their philosophy is as the market changes, that will give them the ability to move faster. Microsoft's philosophy favors really abstracting that complexity, now that adds overhead, but it does simplify, so these are two very interesting counter poised strategies that we're watching and we think there's room for both, they're just not necessarily one better than the other, it's just different philosophies and different approaches. Now Snowflake for its part is building a data cloud on top of AWS, Google and Azure, so it's another example of adding value by abstracting away the underlying infrastructure complexity and it obviously seems to be working well, albeit at a much smaller scale at this point. Now let's talk a little bit about some of the on-prem players, the legacy players, and we'll use Dell and VMware as proxies for these markets. So what we're showing here in this chart is Dell's net scores across select parts of its portfolio and it's a pretty nice picture for Dell, I mean everything, but Desktop is showing forward momentum relative to previous surveys, laptops continue to benefit from the remote worker trend, in fact, PCs actually grew this year if you saw our spot on Intel last week, PCs had peaked, PC volume at peaked in 2011 and it actually bumped up this year but it's not really, we don't think sustainable, but nonetheless it's been a godsend during the pandemic as data center infrastructure has been softer. Dell's cloud is up and that really comprises a bunch of infrastructure along with some services, so that's showing some strength that both, look at storage and server momentum, they seem to be picking up and this is really important because these two sectors have been lagging for Dell. But this data supports our pent-up demand premise for on-prem infrastructure, and we'll see if the ETR survey which is forward-looking translates into revenue growth for Dell and others like HPE. Now, what about Dell's favorite new toy over at VMware? Let's take a look at that picture for VMware, it's pretty solid. VMware cloud on AWS, we've been reporting on that for several quarters now, it's showing up in the ETR survey and it is well, it's somewhat moderating, it's coming down from very high spending momentum, so it's still, we think very positive. NSX momentum is coming back in the survey, I'm not sure what happened there, but it's been strong, VMware's on-prem cloud with VCF VMware Cloud Foundation, that's strong, Tanzu was a bit surprising because containers are very hot overall, so that's something we're watching, seems to be moderating, maybe the market says okay, you did great VMware, you're embracing containers, but Tanzu is maybe not the, we'll see, we'll see how that all plays out. I think it's the right strategy for VMware to embrace that container strategy, but we said remember, everybody said containers are going to kill VMware, well, VMware rightly, they've embraced cloud with VMware cloud on AWS, they're embracing containers. So we're seeing much more forward-thinking strategies and management philosophies. Carbon Black, that benefits from the security tailwind, and then the core infrastructure looks good, vSAN, vSphere and VDI. So the big thing that we're watching for VMware, is of course, who's going to be the next CEO. Is it going to be Zane Rowe, who's now the acting CEO? And of course he's been the CFO for years. Who's going to get that job? Will it be Sanjay Poonen? The choice I think is going to say much about the direction of VMware going forward in our view. Succeeding Pat Gelsinger is like, it's going to be like following Peyton Manning at QB, but this summer we expect Dell to spin out VMware or do some other kind of restructuring, and restructure both VMware and Dell's balance sheet, it wants to get both companies back to investment grade and it wants to set a new era in motion or it's going to set a new era in motion. Now that financial transaction, maybe it does call for a CFO in favor of such a move and can orchestrate such a move, but certainly Sanjay Poonen has been a loyal soldier and he's performed very well in his executive roles, not just at VMware, but previous roles, SAP and others. So my opinion there's no doubt he's ready and he's earned it, and with, of course with was no offense to Zane Rowe by the way, he's an outstanding executive too, but the big questions for Dell and VMware's what will the future of these two companies look like? They've dominated, VMware especially has dominated the data center for a decade plus, they're responding to cloud, and some of these new trends, they've made tons of acquisitions and Gelsinger has orchestrated TAM expansion. They still got to get through paying down the debt so they can really double down on an innovation agenda from an R&D perspective, that's been somewhat hamstrung and to their credit, they've done a great job of navigating through Dell's tendency to take VMware cash and restructure its business to go public, and now to restructure both companies to do the pivotal acquisition, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera and clean up it's corporate structure. So it's been a drag on VMware's ability to use its free cash flow for R&D, and again it's been very impressive what it's been able to accomplish there. On the Dell side of the house, it's R&D largely has gone to kind of new products, follow-on products and evolutionary kind of approach, and it would be nice to see Dell be able to really double down on the innovation agenda especially with the looming edge opportunity. Look R&D is the lifeblood of a tech company, and there's so many opportunities across the clouds and at The Edge we've talked this a lot, I haven't talked much about or any about IBM, we wrote a piece last year on IBM's innovation agenda, really hinges on its R&D. It seems to be continuing to favor dividends and stock buybacks, that makes it difficult for the company to really invest in its future and grow, its promised growth, Ginni Rometty promised growth, that never really happened, Arvind Krishna is now promising growth, hopefully it doesn't fall into the same pattern of missed promises, and my concern there is that R&D, you can't just flick a switch and pour money and get a fast return, it takes years to get that. (Dave chuckles) We talked about Intel last week, so similar things going on, but I digress. Look, these guys are going to require in my view, VMware, Dell, I'll put HPE in there, they're going to require organic investment to get back to growth, so we're watching these factors very, very closely. Okay, got to wrap up here, so we're seeing IT spending growth coming in as high as potentially 7% this year, and it's going to be powered by the same old culprits, cloud, AI, automation, we'll be doing an RPA update soon here, application modernization, and the new work paradigm that we think will force increased investments in digital initiatives. The doubling of the expectation of work from home is significant, and so we see this hybrid world, not just hybrid cloud but hybrid work from home and on-prem, this new digital world, and it's going to require investment in both cloud and on-prem, and we think that's going to lift both boats but cloud, clearly the big winner. And we're not by any means suggesting that their growth rates are going to somehow converge, they're not, cloud will continue to outpace on-prem by several hundred basis points, throughout the decade we think. And AWS and Microsoft are in the top division of that cloud bracket. Security markets are really shifting and we continue to like the momentum of companies in identity and endpoint and cloud security, especially the pure plays like CrowdStrike and Okta and SailPoint, and Zscaler and others that we've mentioned over the past several quarters, but CSOs tell us they want to work with the big guys too, because they trust them, especially Palo Alto networks, Cisco obviously in the mix, their security business continues to outperform the balance of Cisco's portfolio, and these companies, they have resources to withstand market shifts and we'll do a deeper drill down at the security soon and update you on other trends, on other companies in that space. Now the database world, it continues to heat up, I used to say on theCUBE all the time that decade and a half ago database was boring and now database is anything but, and thank you to cloud databases and especially Snowflake, it's data cloud vision, it's simplicity, we're seeing lots of different ways though, to skin the cat, and while there's disruption, we believe Oracle's position is solid because it owns Mission-Critical, that's its stronghold, and we really haven't seen those workloads migrate into the cloud, and frankly, I think it's going to be hard to rest those away from Oracle. Now, AWS and Microsoft, they continue to be the easy choice for a lot of their customers. Microsoft migrating its software state, AWS continues to innovate, we've got a lot of database choices, the right tool for the right job, so there's lots of innovation going on in databases beyond these names as well, and we'll continue to update you on these markets shortly. Now, lastly, it's quite notable how well some of the legacy names have navigated through COVID. Sure, they're not rocketing like many of the work-from-home stocks, but they've been able to thus far survive, and in the example of Dell and VMware, the portfolio diversity has been a blessing. The bottom line is the first half of 2021 seems to be shaping up as we expected, momentum for the strongest digital plays, low interest rates helping large established companies hang in there with strong balance sheets, and large customer bases. And what will be really interesting to see is what happens coming out of the pandemic. Will the rich get richer? Yeah, well we think so. But we see the legacy players adjusting their business models, embracing change in the market and steadily moving forward. And we see at least a dozen new players hitting the radar that could become leaders in the coming decade, and as always, we'll be highlighting many of those in our future episodes. Okay, that's it for now, listen, these episodes remember, they're all available as podcasts, all you got to do is search for Breaking Analysis Podcasts and you'll you'll get them so please listen, like them, if you like them, share them, really, I always appreciate that, I publish weekly on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com, and really would appreciate your comments and always do in my LinkedIn posts, or you can always DM me @dvellante or email me at david.vellante@siliconangle.com, and tell me what you think is happening out there. Don't forget to check out ETR+ for all the survey action, this is David Vellante, thanks for watching theCUBE Insights powered by ETR. Stay safe, we'll see you next time. (downbeat music)

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube presenting Cuban cloud brought to you by Silicon angle. Hello. We wanna welcome back to the Cuban cloud where we're talking to CEOs, C. E. O s, chief technology officers and investors. On the future of Cloud with me is Dave Humphrey, who is the managing director and co head of Private Equity North America at Bain Capital. They've welcome to the Cube. First time, I think. >>First time. Yeah, David, thanks very much for having so >>let's get right into it. As an investor, how are you thinking about the evolution of cloud? When you look back at the last decade, you know it's not gonna be the same, uh, in this coming decade, you know, Thio ironic 2020 is has thrown us into, you know, the accelerated digital transformation and cloud. But how do you look at the evolution of cloud from an investment perspective? What's your thesis? >>That's a great question, David. You know, for us, we're focused on investing in technology and really across the economy. And I'd say the cloud is the overarching trends and dynamic in the technology markets. And really, for two reasons, one is a major shift. Of course, that's going on. But the second and frankly, even more interesting one to us is all the growth that the cloud is creating in the technology marketplace. You know the ship. It has been well covered. But five years ago in 2015, by our analysis, two thirds of all computing workloads were done on premises and Onley. Five years later, that's that's flipped. So two thirds of all computing workloads now done done in the cloud. And, of course, that shift. There's a lot of ramifications as an investor. But even more interesting dust is the growth in technology and the usage of technology that the cloud is creating. So over that same period of time, the total number of computing workloads run has increased by 2.6 times just a five year period time, which is really a a dramatic thing. And it makes sense when you think about all the new software applications that could be created, all the data that could be used by new users and new segments, and the real time inside that could be gleaned from that is that growth that really were focused on investing behind a Z. Investors in technology. You >>know, it's interesting you just took share those numbers and you hear a lot of numbers. I I actually think you you know, you your even being conservative. You know, Ginny Rometty used to talk about 80% of workloads or are still on Prem. Andy Jassy it reinvent said that 96% of spending is still on premises. So that was kind of an interesting stat. And I guess the other thing that I would, I would note is it's not just a share shift. It is. It's not just, you know, the cloud eating away it on Prem. We've clearly seen that, but there's also incremental opportunity as well. If you look at snowflake, for example, and adding value on top of, you know across multiple clouds and creating new markets, so there's there's that, you know, double that 12 punch of stealing share from on Prem but also incremental growth, which is probably accelerated as a result of this, you know, compressed digital transformation. So when you look at the Big Three cloud players, I mean roughly speaking, they probably account for $80 billion in total revenue which I guess is a small portion of the overall I t. Market. So it has a a long way to go. But But what's the best way to get good returns from an investment standpoint without getting clobbered by their tendency to sometimes coop some of the best ideas and put them on their primary services? >>Yeah, absolutely. Well, you know, for us, uh, it really comes back to the same fundamental principles we look for in any investment, which is finding a business that solves a really important problem for its customers and does so in a way that's really advantaged vs competition can and do something that other competitors just can't do, whether those be the hyper scale is that you're describing or, you know, other specialized and focused competitors, and then finding a way that we can partner with those companies to help them to accelerate their growth. So surely the growth of the likes of AWS and Microsoft and Google, as you're describing, has been a profound competitive shift, along with the cloud shift that we've all talked about. And those companies, of course, can offer and do things that you past purveyors of computing couldn't. But fundamentally, they're selling and infrastructure layer, and there is room for all sorts of new competitors and new applications that can do something better than anybody else can. So any company that we're looking at, we're asking ourselves the question. Why are they the best ones to do what they're doing? How could they solve the most problem for their customers and do that in a way that's that's Brazilian and we see lots of those opportunities, >>and I wanna I wanna pick your brain about the Nutanix investment. But before we get there, I wonder if you could just talk about Bain Capital in their their history of investment in both cloud and infrastructure software and and how do those investments? How would they performed? And how do they inform your current thesis? >>Yeah, absolutely. So being Capital was started in in the mid eighties, 1984 actually has a spin out of being a company consulting, and the basic premise was that if we're good at advising and supporting businesses, we should partner with them and invest behind them, and if they do well, we'll do well. And, as I said, focusing on these businesses but do something really valuable for their customers in a riel advantaged way, with some discontinuous growth opportunity that's led us to grow a lot. You know, we started out actually in the venture business and grew into the private equity business. But now we invest across all life stages of companies and all over the world. So we're $105 billion in assets that we managed across 10 lines of business on were truly global. So I think we have about 470 investment professionals and 210 of those at this point are located outside the U. S. One of the really interesting things for us in investing in technology broadly and in infrastructure in the cloud more specifically is that we're able to do that all over the world. And we're able to do that across all the different life stages of companies. We have a thriving venture capital business that really we've been in since the origins of being capital has invested across countless cloud and security and infrastructure businesses taken successful companies public like like solar wind sold companies to strategic and grown businesses. You know, in really thriving ways we have a, um, growth mid market growth technology business that we launched last year. Called their Technology Opportunities Fund. They've made a really interesting cloud based investment in a company called the Cloud Gurus Cloud Guru Excuse me? That trains the next generation of I t professionals to be successful in the club on then, of course, in our private equity business, you know where I spend my time. We are highly focused on technology sector and the the impacts of the cloud in that sector. Broadly, we've invested in many infrastructure businesses, scale businesses like BMC software and Rockets software security businesses like blue coat systems and semantic. And of course, for those big businesses they've got both on premises solutions. They've got cloud solutions, and often we're focused on helping them continue to grow and innovate and take their solutions to the cloud. And then, uh, that's taking us to our most recent investment in Nutanix that we're very excited about it. We think it's truly a growth business in a large market that has an opportunity to capitalize on these trends we're talking about. >>I wonder if you could comment on some of the changes that have occurred. You guys have been in the private equity business for a long time. And if you look at what you know, kind of the early days of private equity, it was all you know, even, uh, suck as much cash out of the company is possible. You know, whatever's left over will figure out what to do with it. It it seems like you know, investors have realized Wow, we can actually, if we put a little investment in and do some engineering and some go to market, we can actually get better multiples. And so you've got the kind of rule of 30 35 40 where he made a plus. Growth is kind of the metric. How do you think about that? And look at that evolution. >>Yeah, you know, it's interesting because in many ways, being capital was started as the antithesis to what to what you're describing. So we started again, as as with a strategic lens and a focus on growth and a focus on if we got the long term and the lasting impact of our business is right, that the returns would would follow. And you're right that the market has evolved in that way. I mean, I think some of the some of the dynamics that we've seen has been certainly growth of the private equity business. It's It's become a much larger piece of the, you know, the capital markets than it was certainly 10 years ago in 20 years ago. Also, with that growth comes the globalization, that business all over the world and the specialization. So you certainly see technology focused firms and technology focused funds in a way that you didn't see, uh, 10 years ago, or certainly 20 years ago actually being capital. Interestingly enough, we had a technology focused fund in 1989 called called Being Information Partners. So we've been focused on the sector for a very long time. But you certainly see ah, lot more technology investors, uh, than than you did you know 10 or 20 years ago? >>How are you thinking about valuations? Thes days? I mean, that is good. It's good to be in tech. It's even better to be in the cloud. You know, Service officer, software Cloud. You know if if if you're looking at, you know some of the companies, especially the work from home pivot. But a lot of that appears to be. You know, many people believe it's going to be permanent. How are you feeling about the both public market and private market valuations in that dynamic? >>Yeah, well, you know, it's it's amazing, right? I don't think any of us in March, when the covert crisis was just emerging, would have anticipated that that come November, the markets, and certainly the technology markets would be even more robust and stronger than than they were say in January February. But I think it's a testament to the resilience of the technology on that just how intricate and intertwined technology has become with our daily lives and and how much companies depend on its use. And frankly, it's been the cove environments that an accelerant for many of the ways in which we depend on technology. So witnessed this interview, of course, through through the through the cloud, and you're seeing the way that we operate our business day to day the way cos they're accessing their data and information. It's only further accelerated the need for technology and the importance of that technology to how how businesses operate. So I think you're seeing that reflected in the market values out there. But, you know, frost work. We're focused on businesses that still have that catalytic opportunity ahead that can more than compensate for for the price of entry. >>So let's talk about this massive investment. You guys made a Nutanix 750 million, I guess, is a small piece of your 105 billion, but still a massive investment. How did that opportunity come to you? What was your thinking? You know, behind that that investment and what are you looking for in terms of the go forward plan and growth plan for 2021 really importantly, beyond. >>Yeah, absolutely. Well, we're thrilled to be partnered with and invested in Nutanix. We think is a terrific company. And, you know, our most recent technology investment and private equity business. It really came about through a proactive efforts that we had in in the spring. Um, you know, we've got a team focused on the technology sector, focused across infrastructure and applications, and, uh, internet and digital media businesses and financial technology. And, uh, you know, through those efforts, we were looking for businesses. Um, that we felt had faced some dislocation and their market values associated with the Koven environment that we're facing but that we thought were really attractive. Business is well positioned, had leading solutions and had substantial and discontinuous growth opportunities. And as we looked through that effort, we really felt that Nutanix stood out just as a core leader and in fact, really the innovator and the inventor of the market in which it competes with a substantial market share in position solving a really important problem for its customers with a big growth opportunity ahead. But, um, the stock price had had come down because the business has been undergoing ah transition, and we didn't think that that was fully understood by by the market. And so way saw an opportunity Thio partner with Nutanix to invest money into the business to help to fund its transition and its growth. Yeah, and Thio to be partners along for all the value the business will will continue to create. We think it's a terrific company, and we're excited to be to be invested >>Well, you and I have talked about this that transition, you know, from a traditional, you know, license model to one That's Anania recurring revenue model, which many companies have gone through. You know, Adobe certainly has done it. Tableau successfully did it. Splunk is kind of in the middle of that transition right now and maybe not well understood. You've got companies like like Data Dog that and snowflake again to doing consumption based pricing. So there's a lot of confusion in the marketplace, and I wonder if you could talk about that transition and why it It was attractive to you to actually, you know, place that bet now? >>Yeah, absolutely. And as you say, a number of companies at this point have been through various forms of this shift, from from selling their technology upfront to selling it over time on, we find that the model of selling the technology over time eyes one that could be powerful. It could be aligning for customers as well as for, uh, vendor of the software solutions. And in Nutanix in particular again, we saw all the ingredients that we think make this an opportunity for for the business again, market leading technology that customers love. That is solving really important problem. The technology, because Nutanix had been grown and bootstrapped under the leadership of, uh, you know of zeros when it was built and founded, had been selling its software together with an appliance, you know, often in a, um, upfront sale Andi has been undergoing under their own initiative transition from selling that software with an appliance to a software based model to one that s'more rattle over time. And, you know, we thought that there was the opportunity to continue that to continue that transition and by doing that, to be able to offer mawr growth and mawr innovation that we could bring to our customers Thio continue to fund the shift. So something that frankly was well underway before we invested. Um, you know, as a za business makes this transition from collecting upfront Thio, you know, thio more evenly. Over time, you know, we saw a potentially use for our capital to help to fund that growth. And we're just focused on being a good partner toe help the company keep investing in abating, as as it contains to do that. >>I was talking to somebody other day, David. I told him I was interviewing you, and I was mentioning the Nutanix investment. I said, I'm definitely gonna cover that as part of this. You know, Cuban Cloud program. And they said Hit Nutanix. That's not cloud. I'm like, Wait a minute, What's cloud? So we heard Andy Jassy reinvent talking a lot about hybrid Antonio Neary, right after HP made its earnings last earnings announcement he came on on, said that well, we heard the big Cloud player talk about hybrid, and so the definition is changing. But so how are you looking at the market? Uh, certainly. There's this hyper converged infrastructure, but there's also this software play. There's this cloud play. Help us squint through how you see that >>absolutely so Nutanix, as you alluded to, pioneered the market for hyper converged infrastructure for bringing computing storage networking together. Uh, you know, often in private cloud environments in a way that was really powerful for for customers. Make, of course, continue to be the leaders in that marketplace. But they've continued to innovate and invest in ways that can solve problems for customers and related problems across the hybrid cloud. So combining both the public cloud with, you know, with that private cloud and across multiple public clouds with things like clusters and lots of innovation that business is doing in partnership with the likes of, um, Amazon and Microsoft and others. And so, yeah, we think that New Chance has a powerful role to play in that hyper cloud world in a multi cloud world. And we're excited toe back on them. >>Well, I think to what maybe people don't understand is that not only is Nutanix, you know, compatible with AWS and compatible with azure and G C. P. But it's actually kind of create a nabs traction layer across those those clouds. Now there's two sides of that debate. Some some will say, Well, that that that has Leighton see issues or yes, it reduces complexity. But at the same time, it doesn't give you that fine grained access. That's kind of the A W s narrative customers, you know, want simplicity. And we're seeing, you know, the uptake across clouds. I have a multipart question for you, Dave. So obviously being very strong and strategy I'm curious is toe how how much you get involved in the operational details. I mean, obviously 750 million u got a state there, but what are the 2 to 2 or three major strategic considerations for not just even just Nutanix but cloud and software infrastructure companies. And and how much focus do you put on the operational and one of the priorities There? >>Absolutely. Well, you know, we pride ourselves in being good partners to our businesses and in helping them to grow, not just with our capital, which I think is, of course, important, but also, you know, with our sweat equity and our and our human capital in our partnership that we could do that in lots of ways is fundamentally about, um, you know, supporting our businesses, however, is needed to help them thio grow. We've been investing in the technology sector, as I described for over over 30 years. And so we've built up a set of capabilities around things like helping toe partner with the sales force of our company is helping them toe, you know, think about the you know, the ways in which they they allocate their, uh their research and development and their in their innovation raised in which they, you know, continue Thio do acquisitions toe. You know, further that pipeline, we support our businesses in lots of ways, but you know we're not engineers were not. Developers, of course, were looking for businesses that are fundamentally great. They've got great technology. They solve problems for customers in a way, you know, that we could never replicate. That's what's the amazing but a business like Nutanix and just over a 10 year period of time, it literally has customer satisfaction levels that we haven't seen from any other. Infrastructures offer company that we've had the, you know, the pleasure of diligence ing over the last several years. So what we're focused on is how can we take those great products and offerings that Nutanix has and continue to support them through the further growth and expansion in areas like, um, you know, the further salesforce investment Thio expand into these new areas like clusters that we were talking about and thinking about, you know, things that they could do toe further expand the strategic hold. Um, And so, you know, we have, ah, large team of being capital. A zai mentioned 260 investment professionals in a private equity business alone. About a third of those are just available to our companies to help support them. Uh, you know, with various initiatives and efforts after after we invest. And we'll certainly, of course, make all of those available to new taxes. Well, somebody >>was asking me the other day, You know, what's hyper converged infrastructure? How did that come about? I was explaining what, Back in the day you had. You buy some servers and some storage and you have a network and you sort of have different teams and you put applicant, You figure out all out and put the applications on top, you know, test it, make sure it all works. And then and then the guys at V. C and VM Ware and Cisco and the M. C. They got together and said, Okay, we're gonna bolt together a bunch of different components and, you know, pre tested. Here you go. Here's a Here's a skew. And then what Nutanix did was actually really transformational and saying, Okay, look, we do this through software on DSO. And now that was what, Late, late two thousands. Now we're sort of entering this new era, this next generation of cloud cross clouds. So I wonder how you think about, you know, based on what you were just talking about the whole notion of M and A versus organic. There's a lot of organic development that needs to be done. But perhaps you could you could buy in or in organically through emanate toe, actually get there faster. How do you think about that balance? >>Look, I I think that that was an articulate, by the way explanation of I think that the origins of hyper converged infrastructure. So I enjoyed that very much. But, you know, I think that with any of our businesses and with Nutanix, we're of course, looking at where we trying to get to in several years and one of the best ways to support the business to get there, you know? Of course, they'll, um you know, primarily that will be through or continued organic investment in the company and all the innovation in the product. Um, that they've been doing will the company contemplate acquisitions toe further achieve the development goals and the objectives for solving pain points for customers to get, you know, to the strategic places they're trying to get to, of course. But you know, it all is a part of the package of of What's it a good fit company and its growth object. >>I mean, with the size of your portfolio, I mean your full stack investor, I would say, Is there any part of the so called tech stack that you won't touch that you would actually, you know, not not walk, but run away from, >>uh well, you know, I wouldn't say that we're running away from, you know, anything but the questions that we're asking ourselves. Our is the technology that we're investing in durable, ISAT advantaged and does have a growing role in the world. And, you know, if if we think that those things are true are absolutely, um, thrilled toe invest behind those things. You know, if if there are things that we feel like you, that's that's not the case, um, you know, then then we would tend toe to shy away from those investments. We've certainly found opportunities and businesses that people perceived as one. But you know, we believe to be another >>Well, so let me ask you specifically about about Nutanix. I mean, clearly, they achieved escape velocity. One of the few companies actually from last decade. It was Nutanix pure, not a whole lot of others. That actually, you know, were ableto maintain independence as a as a public company. What do you see is their durability. Uh, they're they're they're in their moat. If you if you will. >>Yeah, absolutely. Well, clearly, we think that it's a very durable and very advantage business. You know, that's that's the investment. Look, we think that Nutanix has been able to offer the best hyper converged infrastructure product on the market bar None. Um, one that has got the best ease of use Eyes is the most nimble and flexible for for customers. And you just see that, you know, recently and customer feedback And also that plays across very heterogeneous architectures in a way that, you know, it's really, really powerful because of that. You know, we think that their best position to be able to leverage that technology as they have been, uh, to continue to play across both public and private hybrid cloud environments. And so we're excited toe to back them and and that journey it really starts from solving and acute customer pain point, you know, better than anybody else can. And, you know, we're looking to to back them toe continue to expand that vision. >>Yeah, well, I've talked to a lot of Nutanix customers over the years, and that is the fundamental value. Proposition is it's really simple, very high, you know, customer satisfaction. So that makes a lot of sense. Well, Dave, thanks very much for coming on the Cube and participating in the Cuban cloud. Really? Appreciate your perspectives. Wish you best of luck. And hopefully we could do this again in the future. Maybe face to face >>now, face to face, maybe something even know. Dave, I really appreciate it's been a pleasure and good luck with with the rest of your interviews. >>All right. Thank you. We keep it right. Everybody from or Cuban Cloud, this is Dave Volonte. We'll be right back.

(gentle music) >> From the Cube Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is theCube Conversation. >> Hi everybody, this is Dave Vellante, we're back at Cube on Cloud, and with me is Muddu Sudhakar. He's a long time alum of theCube, a technologist and executive, a serial entrepreneur and an investor. Welcome my friend, good to see you. >> Good to see you, Dave. Pleasure to be with you. Happy elections, I guess. >> Yeah, yeah. So I wanted to start, this work from home, pivot's been amazing, and you've seen the enterprise collaboration explode. I wrote a piece a couple months ago, looking at valuations of various companies, right around the snowflake IPO, I want to ask you about that, but I was looking at the valuations of various companies, at Spotify, and Shopify, and of course Zoom was there. And I was looking at just simple revenue multiples, and I said, geez, Zoom actually looks, might look undervalued, which is crazy, right? And of course the stock went up after that, and you see teams, Microsoft Teams, and Microsoft doing a great job across the board, we've written about that, you're seeing Webex is exploding, I mean, what do you make of this whole enterprise collaboration play? >> No, I think the look there is a trend here, right? So I think this probably trend started before COVID, but COVID is going to probably accelerate this whole digital transformation, right? People are going to work remotely a lot more, not everybody's going to come back to the offices even after COVID, so I think this whole collaboration through Slack, and Zoom, and Microsoft Teams and Webex, it's going to be the new game now, right? Both the video, audio and chat solutions, that's really going to help people like eyeballs. You're not going to spend time on all four of them, right? It's like everyday from a consumer side, you're going to spend time on your Gmail, Facebook, maybe Twitter, maybe Instagram, so like in the consumer side, on your personal life, you have something on the enterprise. The eyeballs are going to be in these platforms. >> Yeah. Well. >> But we're not going to take everything. >> Well, So you are right, there's a permanence to this, and I got a lot of ground to cover with you. And I always like our conversations mood because you tell it like it is, I'm going to stay on that work from home pivot. You know a lot about security, but you've seen three big trends, like mega trends in security, Endpoint, Identity Access Management, and Cloud Security, you're seeing this in the stock prices of companies like CrowdStrike, Zscaler, Okta- >> Right >> Sailpoint- >> Right, I mean, they exploded, as a result of the pandemic, and I think I'm inferring from your comment that you see that as permanent, but that's a real challenge from a security standpoint. What's the impact of Cloud there? >> No, it isn't impact but look, first is all the services required to be Cloud, right? See, the whole ideas for it to collaborate and do these things. So you cannot be running an application, like you can't be running conference and SharePoint oN-Prem, and try to on a Zoom and MS teams. So that's why, if you look at Microsoft is very clever, they went with Office 365, SharePoint 365, now they have MS Teams, so I think that Cloud is going to drive all these workloads that you have been talking about a lot, right? You and John have been saying this for years now. The eruption of Cloud and SAS services are the vehicle to drive this next-generation collaboration. >> You know what's so cool? So Cloud obviously is the topic, I wonder how you look at the last 10 years of Cloud, and maybe we could project forward, I mean the big three Cloud vendors, they're running it like $20 billion a quarter, and they're growing collectively, 35, 40% clips, so we're really approaching a hundred billion dollars for these three. And you hear stats like only 20% of the workloads are in the public Cloud, so it feels like we're just getting started. How do you look at the impact of Cloud on the market, as you say, the last 10 years, and what do you expect going forward? >> No, I think it's very fascinating, right? So I remember when theCube, you guys are talking about 10 years back, now it's been what? More than 10 years, 15 years, since AWS came out with their first S3 service back in 2006. >> Right. >> Right? so I think look, Cloud is going to accelerate even more further. The areas is going to accelerate is for different reasons. I think now you're seeing the initial days, it's all about startups, initial workloads, Dev test and QA test, now you're talking about real production workloads are moving towards Cloud, right? Initially it was backup, we really didn't care for backup they really put there. Now you're going to have Cloud health primary services, your primary storage will be there, it's not going to be an EMC, It's not going to be a NetApp storage, right? So workloads are going to shift from the business applications, and these business applications, will be running on the Cloud, and I'll make another prediction, make customer service and support. Customer service and support, again, we should be running on the Cloud. You're not want to run the thing on a Dell server, or an IBM server, or an HP server, with your own hosted environment. That model is not because there's no economies of scale. So to your point, what will drive Cloud for the next 10 years, will be economies of scale. Where can you take the cost? How can I save money? If you don't move to the Cloud, you won't save money. So all those workloads are going to go to the Cloud are people who really want to save, like global gradual custom, right? If you stay on the ASP model, a hosted, you're not going to save your costs, your costs will constantly go up from a SaaS perspective. >> So that doesn't bode well for all the On-prem guys, and you hear a lot of the vendors that don't own a Cloud that talk about repatriation, but the numbers don't support that. So what do those guys do? I mean, they're talking multi-Cloud, of course they're talking hybrid, that's IBM's big play, how do you see it? >> I think, look, see there, to me, multi-Cloud makes sense, right? You don't want one vendor that you never want to get, so having Amazon, Microsoft, Google, it gives them a multi-Cloud. Even hybrid Cloud does make sense, right? There'll be some workloads. It's like, we are still running On-prem environment, we still have mainframe, so it's never going to be a hundred percent, but I would say the majority, your question is, can we get to 60, 70, 80% workers in the next 10 years? I think you will. I think by 2025, more than 78% of the Cloud Migration by the next five years, 70% of workload for enterprise will be on the Cloud. The remaining 25, maybe Hybrid, maybe On-prem, but I get panics, really doesn't matter. You have saved and part of your business is running on the Cloud. That's your cost saving, that's where you'll see the economies of scale, and that's where all the growth will happen. >> So square the circle for me, because again, you hear the stat on the IDC stat, IBM Ginni Rometty puts it out there a lot that only 20% of the workloads are in the public Cloud, everything else is On-prem, but it's not a zero sum game, right? I mean the Cloud native stuff is growing like crazy, the On-prem stuff is flat to down, so what's going to happen? When you talk about 70% of the workloads will be in the Cloud, do you see those mission critical apps and moving into the car, I mean the insurance companies going to put their claims apps in the Cloud, or the financial services companies going to put their mission critical workloads in the Cloud, or they just going to develop new stuff that's Cloud native that is sort of interacts with the On-prem. How do you see that playing out? >> Yeah, no, I think absolutely, I think a very good question. So two things will happen. I think if you take an enterprise, right? Most businesses what they'll do is the workloads that they should not be running On-prem, they'll move it up. So obviously things like take, as I said, I use the word SharePoint, right? SharePoint and conference, all the knowledge stuff is still running on people's data centers. There's no reason. I understand, I've seen statistics that 70, 80% of the On-prem for SharePoint will move to SharePoint on the Cloud. So Microsoft is going to make tons of money on that, right? Same thing, databases, right? Whether it's CQL server, whether there is Oracle database, things that you are running as a database, as a Cloud, we move to the Cloud. Whether that is posted in Oracle Cloud, or you're running Oracle or Mongo DB, or Dynamo DB on AWS or SQL server Microsoft, that's going to happen. Then what you're talking about is really the App concept, the applications themselves, the App server. Is the App server is going to run On-prem, how much it's going to laureate outside? There may be a hybrid Cloud, like for example, Kafka. I may use a Purse running on a Kafka as a service, or I may be using Elasticsearch for my indexing on AWS or Google Cloud, but I may be running my App locally. So there'll be some hybrid place, but what I would say is for every application, 75% of your Comprende will be on the Cloud. So think of it like the Dev. So even for the On-prem app, you're not going to be a 100 percent On-prem. The competent, the billing materials will move to the Cloud, your Purse, your storage, because if you put it On-prem, you need to add all this, you need to have all the whole things to buy it and hire the people, so that's what is going to happen. So from a competent perspective, 70% of your bill of materials will move to the Cloud, even for an On-prem application. >> So, Of course, the susification of the industry in the last decade and in my three favorite companies last decade, you've worked for two of them, Tableau, ServiceNow, and Splunk. I want to ask you about those, but I'm interested in the potential disruption there. I mean, you've got these SAS companies, Salesforce of course is another one, but they can't get started in 1999. What do you see happening with those? I mean, we're basically building these sort of large SAS, platforms, now. Do you think that the Cloud native world that developers can come at this from an angle where they can disrupt those companies, or are they too entrenched? I mean, look at service now, I mean, I don't know, $80 billion market capital where they are, they bigger than Workday, I mean, just amazing how much they've grown and you feel like, okay, nothing can stop them, but there's always disruption in this industry, what are your thoughts on that. >> Not very good with, I think there'll be disrupted. So to me actually to your point, ServiceNow is now close to a 100 billion now, 95 billion market coverage, crazy. So from evaluation perspective, so I think the reason they'll be disrupted is that the SAS vendors that you talked about, ServiceNow, and all this plan, most of these services, they're truly not a multi-tenant or what do you call the Cloud Native. And that is the Accenture. So because of that, they will not be able to pass the savings back to the enterprises. So the cost economics, the economics that the Cloud provides because of the multi tenancy ability will not. The second reason there'll be disrupted is AI. So far, we talked about Cloud, but AI is the core. So it's not really Cloud Native, Dave, I look at the AI in a two-piece. AI is going to change, see all the SAS vendors were created 20 years back, if you remember, was an operator typing it, I don't respond administered we'll type a Splunk query. I don't need a human to type a query anymore, system will actually find it, that's what the whole security game has changed, right? So what's going to happen is if you believe in that, that AI, your score will disrupt all the SAS vendors, so one angle SAS is going to have is a Cloud. That's where you make the Cloud will take up because a SAS application will be Cloudified. Being SAS is not Cloud, right? Second thing is SAS will be also, I call it, will be AI-fied. So AI and machine learning will be trying to drive at the core so that I don't need that many licenses. I don't need that many humans. I don't need that many administrators to manage, I call them the tuners. Once you get a driverless car, you don't need a thousand tuners to tune your Tesla, or Google Waymo car. So the same philosophy will happen is your Dev Apps, your administrators, your service management, people that you need for service now, and these products, Zendesk with AI, will tremendously will disrupt. >> So you're saying, okay, so yeah, I was going to ask you, won't the SAS vendors, won't they be able to just put, inject AI into their platforms, and I guess I'm inferring saying, yeah, but a lot of the problems that they're solving, are going to go away because of AI, is that right? And automation and RPA and things of that nature, is that right? >> Yes and no. So I'll tell you what, sorry, you have asked a very good question, let's answer, let me rephrase that question. What you're saying is, "Why can't the existing SAS vendors do the AI?" >> Yes, right. >> Right, >> And there's a reason they can't do it is their pricing model is by number of seats. So I'm not going to come to Dave, and say, come on, come pay me less money. It's the same reason why a board and general lover build an electric car. They're selling 10 million gasoline cars. There's no incentive for me, I'm not going to do any AI, I'm going to put, I'm not going to come to you and say, hey, buy me a hundred less license next year from it. So that is one reason why AI, even though these guys do any AI, it's going to be just so I call it, they're going to, what do you call it, a whitewash, kind of like you put some paint brush on it, trying to show you some AI you did from a marketing dynamics. But at the core, if you really implement the AI with you take the driver out, how are you going to change the pricing model? And being a public company, you got to take a hit on the pricing model and the price, and it's going to have a stocking part. So that, to your earlier question, will somebody disrupt them? The person who is going to disrupt them, will disrupt them on the pricing model. >> Right. So I want to ask you about that, because we saw a Snowflake, and it's IPO, we were able to pour through its S-1, and they have a different pricing model. It's a true Cloud consumption model, Whereas of course, most SAS companies, they're going to lock you in for at least one year term, maybe more, and then, you buy the license, you got to pay X. If you, don't use it, you still got to pay for it. Snowflake's different, actually they have a different problem, that people are using it too much and the sea is driving the CFO crazy because the bill is going up and up and up, but to me, that's the right model, It's just like the Amazon model, if you can justify it, so how do you see the pricing, that consumption model is actually, you're seeing some of the On-prem guys at HPE, Dell, they're doing as a service. They're kind of taking a page out of the last decade SAS model, so I think pricing is a real tricky one, isn't it? >> No, you nailed it, you nailed it. So I think the way in which the Snowflake there, how the disruptors are data warehouse, that disrupted the open source vendors too. Snowflake distributed, imagine the playbook, you disrupted something as the $ 0, right? It's an open source with Cloudera, Hortonworks, Mapper, that whole big data that you want me to, or that market is this, that disrupting data warehouses like Netezza, Teradata, and the charging more money, they're making more money and disrupting at $0, because the pricing models by consumption that you talked about. CMT is going to happen in the service now, Zen Desk, well, 'cause their pricing one is by number of seats. People are going to say, "How are my users are going to ask?" right? If you're an employee help desk, you're back to your original health collaborative. I may be on Slack, I could be on zoom, I'll maybe on MS Teams, I'm going to ask by using usage model on Slack, tools by employees to service now is the pricing model that people want to pay for. The more my employees use it, the more value I get. But I don't want to pay by number of seats, so the vendor, who's going to figure that out, and that's where I look, if you know me, I'm right over as I started, that's what I've tried to push that model look, I love that because that's the core of how you want to change the new game. >> I agree. I say, kill me with that problem, I mean, some people are trying to make it a criticism, but you hit on the point. If you pay more, it's only because you're getting more value out of it. So I wanted to flip the switch here a little bit and take a customer angle. Something that you've been on all sides. And I want to talk a little bit about strategies, you've been a strategist, I guess, once a strategist, always a strategist. How should organizations be thinking about their approach to Cloud, it's cost different for different industries, but, back when the cube started, financial services Cloud was a four-letter word. But of course the age of company is going to matter, but what's the framework for figuring out your Cloud strategy to get to your 70% and really take advantage of the economics? Should I be Mono Cloud, Multi-Cloud, Multi-vendor, what would you advise? >> Yeah, no, I mean, I mean, I actually call it the tech stack. Actually you and John taught me that what was the tech stack, like the lamp stack, I think there is a new Cloud stack needs to come, and that I think the bottomline there should be... First of all, anything with storage should be in the Cloud. I mean, if you want to start, whether you are, financial, doesn't matter, there's no way. I come from cybersecurity side, I've seen it. Your attackers will be more with insiders than being on the Cloud, so storage has to be in the Cloud then come compute, Kubernetes. If you really want to use containers and Kubernetes, it has to be in the public Cloud, leverage that have the computer on their databases. That's where it can be like if your data is so strong, maybe run it On-prem, maybe have it on a hosted model for when it comes to database, but there you have a choice between hybrid Cloud and public Cloud choice. Then on top when it comes to App, the app itself, you can run locally or anywhere, the App and database. Now the areas that you really want to go after to migrate is look at anything that's an enterprise workload that you don't need people to manage it. You want your own team to move up in the career. You don't want thousand people looking at... you don't want to have a, for example, IT administrators to call central people to the people to manage your compute storage. That workload should be more, right? You already saw Sierra moved out to Salesforce. We saw collaboration already moved out. Zoom is not running locally. You already saw SharePoint with knowledge management mode up, right? With a box, drawbacks, you name anything. The next global mode is a SAS workloads, right? I think Workday service running there, but work data will go into the Cloud. I bet at some point Zendesk, ServiceNow, then either they put it on the public Cloud, or they have to create a product and public Cloud. To your point, these public Cloud vendors are at $2 trillion market cap. They're they're bigger than the... I call them nation States. >> Yeah, >> So I'm servicing though. I mean, there's a 2 trillion market gap between Amazon and Azure, I'm not going to compete with them. So I want to take this workload to run it there. So all these vendors, if you see that's where Shandra from Adobe is pushing this right, Adobe, Workday, Anaplan, all the SAS vendors we'll move them into the public Cloud within these vendors. So those workloads need to move out, right? So that all those things will start, then you'll start migrating, but I call your procurement. That's where the RPA comes in. The other thing that we didn't talk about, back to your first question, what is the next 10 years of Cloud will be RPA? That third piece to Cloud is RPA because if you have your systems On-prem, I can't automate them. I have to do a VPN into your house there and then try to automate your systems, or your procurement, et cetera. So all these RPA vendors are still running On-prem, most of them, whether it's UI path automation anywhere. So the Cloud should be where the brain should be. That's what I call them like the octopus analogy, the brain is in the Cloud, the tentacles are everywhere, they should manage it. But if my tentacles have to do a VPN with your house to manage it, I'm always will have failures. So if you look at the why RPA did not have the growth, like the Snowflake, like the Cloud, because they are running it On-prem, most of them still. 80% of the RP revenue is On-prem, running On-prem, that needs to be called clarified. So AI, RPA and the SAS, are the three reasons Cloud will take off. >> Awesome. Thank you for that. Now I want to flip the switch again. You're an investor or a multi-tool player here, but so if you're, let's say you're an ecosystem player, and you're kind of looking at the landscape as you're in an investor, of course you've invested in the Cloud, because the Cloud is where it's at, but you got to be careful as an ecosystem player to pick a spot that both provides growth, but allows you to have a moat as, I mean, that's why I'm really curious to see how Snowflake's going to compete because they're competing with AWS, Microsoft, and Google, unlike, Frank, when he was at service now, he was competing with BMC and with on-prem and he crushed it, but the competitors are much more capable here, but it seems like they've got, maybe they've got a moat with MultiCloud, and that whole data sharing thing, we'll see. But, what about that? Where are the opportunities? Where's that white space? And I know there's a lot of white space, but what's the framework to look at, from an investor standpoint, or even a CEO standpoint, where you want to put place your bets. >> No, very good question, so look, I did something. We talk as an investor in the board with many companies, right? So one thing that says as an investor, if you come back and say, I want to create a next generation Docker or a computer, there's no way nobody's going to invest. So that we can motor off, even if you want to do object storage or a block storage, I mean, I've been an investor board member of so many storage companies, there's no way as an industry, I'll write a check for a compute or storage, right? If you want to create a next generation network, like either NetSuite, or restart Juniper, Cisco, there is no way. But if you come back and say, I want to create a next generation Viper for remote working environments, where AI is at the core, I'm interested in that, right? So if you look at how the packets are dropped, there's no intelligence in either not switching today. The packets come, I do it. The intelligence is not built into the network with AI level. So if somebody comes with an AI, what good is all this NVD, our GPS, et cetera, if you cannot do wire speed, packet inspection, looking at the content and then route the traffic. If I see if it's a video package, but in UN Boston, there's high interview day of they should be loading our package faster, because you are a premium ISP. That intelligence has not gone there. So you will see, and that will be a bad people will happen in the network, switching, et cetera, right? So that is still an angle. But if you work and it comes to platform services, remember when I was at Pivotal and VMware, all models was my boss, that would, yes, as a platform, service is a game already won by the Cloud guys. >> Right. (indistinct) >> Silicon Valley Investors, I don't think you want to invest in past services, right? I mean, you might come with some lecture edition database to do some updates, there could be some game, let's say we want to do a time series database, or some metrics database, there's always some small angle, but the opportunity to go create a national database there it's very few. So I'm kind of eliminating all the black spaces, right? >> Yeah. >> We have the white spaces that comes in is the SAS level. Now to your point, if I'm Amazon, I'm going to compete with Snowflake, I have Redshift. So this is where at some point, these Cloud platforms, I call them aircraft carriers. They're not going to stay on the aircraft carriers, they're going to own the land as well. So they're going to move up to the SAS space. The question is you want to create a SAS service like CRM. They are not going to create a CRM like service, they may not create a sales force and service now, but if you're going to add a data warehouse, I can very well see Azure, Google, and AWS, going to create something to compute a Snowflake. Why would I not? It's so close to my database and data warehouse, I already have Redshift. So that's going to be nightlights, same reason, If you look at Netflix, you have a Netflix and you have Amazon prime. Netflix runs on Amazon, but you have Amazon prime. So you have the same model, you have Snowflake, and you'll have Redshift. The both will help each other, there'll be a... What do you call it? Coexistence will happen. But if you really want to invest, you want to invest in SAS companies. You do not want to be investing in a compliment players. You don't want to a feature. >> Yeah, that's great, I appreciate that perspective. And I wonder, so obviously Microsoft play in SAS, Google's got G suite. And I wonder if people often ask the Andy Jassy, you're going to move up the stack, you got to be an application, a SAS vendor, and you never say never with Atavist, But I wonder, and we were talking to Jerry Chen about this, years ago on theCube, and his angle was that Amazon will play, but they'll play through developers. They'll enable developers, and they'll participate, they'll take their, lick off the cone. So it's going to be interesting to see how directly Amazon plays, but at some point you got Tam expansion, you got to play in that space. >> Yeah, I'll give you an example of knowing, I got acquired by a couple of times by EMC. So I learned a lot from Joe Tucci and Paul Merage over the years. see Paul and Joe, what they did is to look at how 20 years, and they are very close to Boston in your area, Joe, what games did is they used to sell storage, but you know what he did, he went and bought the Apps to drive them. He bought like Legato, he bought Documentum, he bought Captiva, if you remember how he acquired all these companies as a services, he bought VMware to drive that. So I think the good angle that Microsoft has is, I'm a SAS player, I have dynamics, I have CRM, I have SharePoint, I have Collaboration, I have Office 365, MS Teams for users, and then I have the platform as Azure. So I think if I'm Amazon, (indistinct). I got to own the apps so that I can drive this workforce on my platform. >> Interesting. >> Just going to developers, like I know Jerry Chan, he was my peer a BMF. I don't think just literally to developers and that model works in open source, but the open source game is pretty much gone, and not too many companies made money. >> Well, >> Most companies pretty much gone. >> Yeah, he's right. Red hats not bad idea. But it's very interesting what you're saying there. And so, hey, its why Oracle wants to have Tiktok, running on their platform, right? I mean, it's going to. (laughing) It's going to drive that further integration. I wanted to ask you something, you were talking about, you wouldn't invest in storage or compute, but I wonder, and you mentioned some commentary about GPU's. Of course the videos has been going crazy, but they're now saying, okay, how do we expand our Team, they make the acquisition of arm, et cetera. What about this DPU thing, if you follow that, that data processing unit where they're like hyper dis-aggregation and then they reaggregate, and as an offload and really to drive data centric workloads. Have you looked at that at all? >> I did, I think, and that's a good angle. So I think, look, it's like, it goes through it. I don't know if you remember in your career, we have seen it. I used to get Silicon graphics. I saw the first graphic GPU, right? That time GPU was more graphic processor unit, >> Right, yeah, work stations. >> So then become NPUs at work processing units, right? There was a TCP/IP office offloading, if you remember right, there was like vector processing unit. So I think every once in a while the industry, recreated this separate unit, as a co-processor to the main CPU, because main CPU's inefficient, and it makes sense. And then Google created TPU's and then we have the new world of the media GPU's, now we have DPS all these are good, but what's happening is, all these are driving for machine learning, AI for the training period there. Training period Sometimes it's so long with the workloads, if you can cut down, it makes sense. >> Yeah. >> Because, but the question is, these aren't so specialized in nature. I can't use it for everything. >> Yup. >> I want Ideally, algorithms to be paralyzed, I want the training to be paralyzed, I want so having deep use and GPS are important, I think where I want to see them as more, the algorithm, there should be more investment from the NVIDIA's and these guys, taking the algorithm to be highly paralyzed them. (indistinct) And I think that still has not happened in industry yet. >> All right, so we're pretty much out of time, but what are you doing these days? Where are you spending your time, are you still in Stealth, give us a little glimpse. >> Yeah, no, I'm out of the Stealth, I'm actually the CEO of Aisera now, Aisera, obviously I invested with them, but I'm the CEO of Aisero. It's funded by Menlo ventures, Norwest, True, along with Khosla ventures and Ram Shriram is a big investor. Robin's on the board of Google, so these guys, look, we are going out to the collaboration game. How do you automate customer service and support for employees and then users, right? In this whole game, we talked about the Zoom, Slack and MS Teams, that's what I'm spending time, I want to create next generation service now. >> Fantastic. Muddu, I always love having you on you, pull punches, you tell it like it is, that you're a great visionary technologist. Thanks so much for coming on theCube, and participating in our program. >> Dave, it's always a pleasure speaking to you sir. Thank you. >> Okay. Keep it right there, there's more coming from Cuba and Cloud right after this break. (slow music)

(soft music) >> Hello everyone and welcome back to theCUBE on Cloud, where we're talking to CEOs, CIOs, Chief Technology Officers, and investors on the future of Cloud, with me is Dave Humphrey. Who's the Managing Director, and co-head of private equity in North America at Bain Capital. Dave, welcome to theCUBE first time, I think. >> First time, yeah, Dave, thanks very much for having me. >> So, let's get right into it, as an investor, how are you thinking about the evolution of cloud, when you look back at the last decade? It's not going to be the same, in this coming decade it's ironic 2020 is thrown us into, the accelerated digital transformation and cloud. How do you look at the evolution of cloud, from an investment perspective? What's your thesis? >> That's a great question, David for us we're focused on investing, in technology and really across the economy. And I'd say ,the cloud is the overarching trend, and dynamic in the technology markets. It really affect two reasons. One is a major shift ,of course that's going on. But the second and frankly even more interesting one, just as all the growth, that the cloud is creating, in the technology marketplace. The shift, think is been well covered, but five years ago in 2015, by our analysis, 2/3 of all computing workloads were done on premises. And only five years later, that's that's split. So, 2/3 of all computing workloads now done in the cloud and of course that shift, there's a lot of ramifications, as an investor. But even more interesting to us, is the growth in technology and the usage of technology, that the cloud is creating. So, over that same period of time, the total number of computing workloads run has increased, by 2.6 times, in just a five-year period of time which is really a dramatic thing and it makes sense when you think about, all the new software applications that could be created, all the data that can be used by new users and new segments, and the real-time insight that can be gleaned from there cause that growth, that really were focused on investing behind, as investors in technology. >> It's interesting you share those numbers, and you hear a lot of numbers. I actually think you're even being conservative. Ginni Rometty, used to talk about 80% of workloads, are still on-prem. Andy Jassy at re:Invent said that, 96% of the spending is still on premises. So, that was kind of an interesting stat. And I guess the other thing that I would note is it's not just a share shift, it is, it's not just, the cloud eating away on-prem. We've clearly seen that. But there's also incremental opportunity as well. If you look at Snowflake, for example adding value across multiple clouds and creating new markets. So there's that one-two punch, of stealing share from on-prem (clears throat). Also incremental growth, which is probably accelerated as a result, of this compressed digital transformation. So when you look at the big three Cloud players. I mean, roughly speaking, there probably account for $80 billion in total revenue. Which I guess, is a small portion of the overall IT market. So, it has a long way to go, but what's the best way to get good returns, from an investment standpoint, without getting clobbered, by their tendency to sometimes co-opt some of the best ideas and put them on their primary services. >> Yeah, absolutely, well, for us, it really comes back to the same fundamental principles, we look for in any investment. Which is finding, a business that solves, a really important problem for its customers, and does so in a way that's really advantage, versus competition and can do something, that other competitors just can't do. Whether those be the hyperscalers that you're describing, or other specialized and focused competitors. And then finding a way ,that we can partner with those companies to help them to accelerate their growth. So, surely the growth of the likes of AWS and Microsoft and Google, as you were describing has been a profound, competitive shift, along with the cloud shift, that we've all talked about. And those companies of course can offer, and do things that you asked, purveyors of computing couldn't. But, fundamentally they're selling an infrastructure layer, and there is room for all sorts of new competitors, and new applications that can do something better than anybody else can. So, any company that we're looking at, we're asking ourselves the question, why are they the best ones, to do what they're doing? How can they solve the most problems, for their customers and do that, in a way that's resilient? And we see lots of those opportunities. >> And I want to pick your brain, about the Nutanix investment, but before we get there. I wonder if you could just talk, about Bain Capital their history of investment in both cloud and infrastructure software and how do those investments, how would they perform and how do they inform your current thesis? >> Yeah, absolutely. So, Bain Capital was started in the mid 80s, 1984. Actually, as a spin out Bain Company Consulting. And the basic premise was that, if we're good at advising and supporting businesses. We should partner with them and invest behind them and if they do well, we'll do well. And as I said, focusing on these businesses but do something really valuable for their customers in a real advantage way with some discontinuous growth opportunity. That's led us to grow a lot. We started out actually in the venture business, and grew into the private equity business, but now we invest across all life stages of company all over the world. So we're $105 billion in assets that we manage, across 10 lines of business and we're truly global. So I think we have about 470 investment professionals and 210 of those, at this point are located outside the US. One of the really interesting things for us in investing in technology broadly and in infrastructure and the Cloud more specifically is that we're able to do that all over the world and we're able to do that across all the different life stages of a company. So we have a thrive in venture capital business, that really we've been in, since the origins of Bain Capital has invested across countless cloud and security and infrastructure businesses, taken successful companies public like SolarWinds sold companies to strategic and grown businesses in really thriving ways. We have a growth mid-market growth technology business, that we launched last year, called our Technology Opportunities Fund. They've made a really interesting, cloud-based investment in a company called the Cloud Gurus, Cloud Guru, excuse me. That trains, the next generation of IT professionals to be successful in the cloud. And then of course in our private equity business where I spend my time. We are highly focused on technologist sector. And the impacts of the cloud in that sector broadly, we have invested in many infrastructure businesses, scale businesses like, BMC Software and Rocket Software, security businesses like, Blue Coat Systems and Symantec. And of course, for those big businesses they've got both on premises solutions. They've got cloud solutions and often we're focused on helping them continue to grow and innovate and take their solutions to the cloud. And then, this taken us to our most recent investment in Nutanix that we're very excited about it. We think it's truly a growth business in a large market that has an opportunity to capitalize, on these trends we're talking about. >> I wonder if you could comment on some of the changes that have occurred, you guys have been in the private equity business, for a long time. And if you look at kind of the early days of private equity, it was all, EBITDA suck as much cash out of the company as possible and whatever's left over we'll figure out what to do with it. And it's, it seems like investors have realized, wow, we can actually, if we put a little investment in and do some engineering, and some go to market we can actually, get better multiples. And so you've got the kind of rule of 30, 35 and 40 where EBITDA plus growth is kind of the metric. How do you think about that and look at that evolution? >> Yeah, it's interesting because in many ways Bain Capital was started as the antithesis to what you're describing. >> Great. >> So we started again as, with a strategic lens and a focus on growth and a focus on, if we got the longterm and the lasting impact of our businesses right, that the returns would follow and you're right that the market has evolved in that way. I mean, I think some of the dynamics that we've seen, has been certainly growth of the private equity business. It's become a much larger piece of the capital markets than it was certainly 10 years ago and 20 years ago. Also with that growth comes the globalization of that business all over the world and the specialization. So you certainly see technology focused firms and technology focused funds in a way that you didn't see 10 years ago or certainly 20 years ago. Actually Bain Capital interestingly enough, we had a technology focused fund in 1989 called Bain Information Partners. So we've been focused on the sector for a very long time. But you certainly see a lot more technology investors, than you did in your 10 to 20 years ago. >> How are you thinking about valuations these days? I mean, it's good to be in tech, it's even better to be in the cloud, software, cloud, if you're looking at, some of the companies, especially the work from home pivot. But a lot of that appears to be, many people believe it's going to be permanent. How are you feeling about the both public market and private market valuations in that dynamic? >> Yeah, well, it's amazing, right? I don't think any of us in March when the COVID crisis was just emerging, would've anticipated that come November, the markets and certainly the technology markets, would be even more robust and stronger than they were say in January, February. But I think it's a testament to the resilience of the technology and just how intricate and intertwined technology has become with our daily lives. And how much companies depend on its use. And frankly, it's been, the COVID environment has been an accelerant, for many of the ways in which we depend on technology. So witness this interview, of course, through the cloud, and you're seeing the way that we operate our business day-to-day, the way companies are accessing their data and information it has only further, accelerated the need for technology, and the importance of that technology to how businesses operate. So I think you're seeing that, you're reflected in the market values out there, but for us we're focused on businesses, that still have that catalytic opportunity ahead that can, do more to compensate for the price of entry. >> Let's talk about ,this massive investment you guys made in Nutanix, $750 million. I guess it's a small piece of your 105 billion, but still massive investment. How did that opportunity come to you? What was your thinking behind that investment and what are you looking for in terms of the go-forward plan and growth plan for 2021 and really important beyond? >> Yeah, absolutely, we're thrilled to be partnered with and invested in Nutanix. We think is a terrific company and our most recent technology investment are private equity business. It really came about through a proactive efforts that we had in the spring. We've got a team focused on the technology sector, focused across infrastructure and applications and internet and digital media businesses and financial technology. And through those efforts, we were looking for businesses, that we felt had faced some dislocation in their market values, associated with the COVID environment that we're facing. But that we thought were really attractive businesses, well positioned have leading solutions, and had substantial and discontinuous growth opportunities. And as we look through that effort, we really felt that Nutanix stood out just as a core leader and in fact, really the innovator and the inventor of the market, in which it competes with a substantial market share and position, solving a really important problem for its customers, with a big growth opportunity ahead. But, the stock price had come down, because the business has been undergoing a transition. And we didn't think that was fully understood, by the market. And so, we saw an opportunity to partner with Nutanix, to invest money into the business, to help to fund its transition and its growth, and to be partners along for all the value of the business we'll continue to create, we think it's a terrific company and we're excited to be invested. >> Well, you and I have talked about this, that transition from a traditional license model, to one that's an annual recurring revenue model which many companies have gone through. Adobe certainly has done it, Tableau successfully did it. Splunk is kind of in the middle of that transition right now, and maybe not well understood. You've got companies like, Datadog and Snowflake again to doing consumption-based pricing. So there's a lot of confusion in the marketplace. And I wonder if you could talk about, that transition and why it was attractive to you, to actually place that bet now. >> Yeah, absolutely and as you say, number of companies at this point have been through, various forms of of this shift from selling their technology upfront to selling it over time. And we find that the model of selling the technology over time, is one that can be powerful. It can be aligning for customers, as well as for the vendor of the software solutions. And in Nutanix in particular, again, we saw all the ingredients that we think, make this an opportunity for the business. Again, market-leading technology that customers love that is solving a really important problem that technology because Nutanix had been grown, and bootstrapped under the leadership Dheeraj when it was built and founded. Had been selling its software together within appliance. Often in a upfront sale. And has been undergoing under their own initiative, transitioned from selling that software with an appliance to a software based model to one that's more rattle over time. And we thought that there was the opportunity to continue that transition and by doing that. To be able to offer more growth, and more innovation that we can bring to our customers to continue to fund their shifts. So, something that frankly was well underway before we invested. As the business makes this transition, from collecting upfront to more evenly over time. We saw a potential use for our capital, to help to fund that growth. And we're just focused on being a good partner, to help the company keep investing and innovating, as it continues to do that. >> As I was talking to somebody other day, Dave and I told him, I was interviewing you. And I was mentioning the Nutanix investment. And I said, I'm definitely going to cover that. As part of this Cube on Cloud program and they said, well, then Nutanix, that's not cloud. I'm like, well, wait a minute, what's cloud? So, we heard Andy Jassy at re:Invent, talking all lot about hybrid. Antonio Neri ,right after HPE, made its earning last earnings announcement. He came on and said that, well we heard the big cloud player talk about hybrid. And so the definition is changing. But so how are you looking at the market? Certainly, there's this hyper converged infrastructure, but there's also this software play, there's this cloud play. Help us squint through, how you see that. >> Absolutely, so, Nutanix as you alluded to pioneer the market for hyper converged infrastructure, for bringing compute and storage and networking together. Often in private Cloud environments, in a way that was really powerful for your customers and they can of course continue to be the leaders in that marketplace. But they've continued to innovate and invest in ways that can, solve problems for customers and related problems across the hybrid cloud. So, combining both the public cloud with that private cloud and across multiple public clouds, with things like clusters and lots of innovation, that the business is doing, in partnership with the likes of Amazon and Microsoft and others. And so we think that Nutanix has a powerful role to play, in that hybrid cloud world, in a multi-cloud world. And we're excited to back them in. >> Well, I think too, what maybe people don't understand, is that not only is Nutanix, compatible with AWS and compatible with Azure and GCP, but it's actually trying, to create an abstraction layer across those, those clouds. Now, there's two sides of that debate. Some will say, well, that has latency issues or yes it reduces complexity, but at the same time it doesn't give you, that fine-grained access that's kind of the AWS narrative customers, want simplicity and we're seeing the uptake across clouds. I have a multi-part question for you, Dave. So, obviously Bain very strong in strategy. I'm curious ,as to how much you get involved, in the operational details. I mean, obviously $750 million you've got a stake there. But what are the two or three major strategic considerations for not just even just Nutanix, but Cloud and software infrastructure companies? And how much focus do you put on the operational and what are the priorities there? >> Absolutely, well, we pride ourselves in being good partners to our businesses and in helping them to grow, not just with our capital, which I think is of course important, but also with our sweat equity and our human capital, and our partnership and we can do that in lots of ways. It's fundamentally about supporting our businesses, however, is needed to help them to grow. We've been investing in the technology sector, as I described over, over 30 years. And so, we've built up a set of capabilities around things like, helping to a partner with the Salesforce of a company is helping them to think about the ways in which they allocate their research and development and their innovation ways in which they, continue to do acquisitions, to further that pipeline. We support our businesses in lots of ways. But we're not engineers, we're not developers. Of course, we're looking for businesses that are fundamentally great. They've got great technology. They solve problems for customers in a way, we could never replicate. That's, what's all amazing about a business like Nutanix and just over a 10 year period of time, it literally has customer satisfaction levels, that we haven't seen from any other infrastructure software company that we've had the pleasure of diligencing over the last several years. So, what we're focused on, is how can we take those great products and offerings that Nutanix has, and continue to support them, through the further growth and expansion of areas like, the further Salesforce investment, to expand into these new areas like clusters, that we were talking about and thinking about, things that they can do, to further expand the strategic hold. And so, we have a large team of Bain Capital as I mentioned, 260 investment professionals, in our private equity business alone. About a third of those are just available to our companies to help support them, with various initiatives and efforts after we invest. And we'll certainly, of course make all of those available to Nutanix as well. >> Somebody was asking me the other day, what's hyper-converged infrastructure? How did that come about? And I was explaining, back in the day you had, you'd buy some servers and some storage, and you'd have a network. And you sort of have different teams. And you'd put applicant, you figure it out all out and put the applications on top, test it and make sure it all works and then the guys at VCE and VMware and Cisco and EMC, they got together and said, okay, we're going to bolt together a bunch of different components and pretest it here you go, here's a, here's a skew. And then, what Nutanix did was actually, really transformational and said, okay. Look, we can do this through software. And now that was what late 2000? Now, we're sort of entering this new era, this next generation of cloud, cross clouds. So, I wonder how you think about, based on what you were just talking about the whole notion of MA versus organic. There's a lot of organic development that needs to be done but perhaps you could buy in or inorganically through MA to actually get there faster. How do you think about that balance? >> Look I think that was an articulate by the way explanation of I think that the origins of a hyperconverged infrastructure, so I enjoyed that very much. But I think that with any of our businesses and with Nutanix we're of course looking at where are we trying to get to in several years and what are the best ways to support the business to get there? Of course, they'll primarily that will be through continuing organic investment in the company and all the innovation in the product, that they've been doing. Will the company contemplate acquisitions, to further achieve the development goals and the objectives for solving paying points for customers, to get to the strategic places they're trying to get to of course, but it all, is a part of the package of what's a good fit for the company and its growth objective. >> I mean, with the size of your portfolio, I mean, you're a full stack investor, I would say. Is there any part of the so-called tech stack that you won't touch that you would actually not walk, but run away from? (laughs) >> Well, I wouldn't say that we're running away from anything, but the questions that we're asking ourselves are, is the technology that we're investing endurable? Is it advantaged and does have a growing role in the world? And if we think that those things are true, we're absolutely, thrilled to invest behind those things. If there are things that we feel like, that's not the case. then we would tend to shy away from those investments. We've certainly found opportunities in businesses that people perceived as one, but we believe to be another. >> Well, so, let me ask you specifically about Nutanix. I mean, clearly they achieved escape velocity. One of the few companies actually, from last decade, it was Nutanix pure, not a whole lot of others that actually were able to maintain independence as a public company. What do you see as their durability? They're, moat if you will. >> Yeah, absolutely, well clearly we think that it's a very durable and very advantaged business. Yeah, thus the investment. Look, we think that Nutanix has been able to offer the best hyperconverged infrastructure product in the market bar none. One that is got the best ease of use is the most nimble and flexible for customers. And you just see that resulting customer feedback. And also that plays across very heterogeneous architectures in a way that it's really powerful. Because of that we think that they're best positioned to be able to leverage that technology as they have been, to continue to play across both public and private hybrid cloud environments. And so we're excited to back them in that journey. It really starts from solving an acute customer paying point, better than anybody else can. And we're looking to back them to continue to expand that vision. >> Yeah, well, I've talked to a lot of Nutanix customers, over the years and that is the fundamental value proposition it's really simple, very high, customer satisfaction. So, that makes a lot of sense. Well, Dave, thanks very much for coming on theCUBE and participating in theCUBE on Cloud. Really appreciate your perspectives, wish you best of luck. And hopefully we can do this again in the future. Maybe face to face >> Yeah, face to face maybe someday. Dave, I really appreciate it. It's been a pleasure and good luck with the rest of your interviews. >> All right, thank you. Well keep it right there, everybody for more Cube on Cloud. This is Dave Vellante, we'll be right back. (soft music)

(gentle music) >> From the Cube Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is theCube Conversation. >> Hi everybody, this is Dave Vellante, we're back at Cube on Cloud, and with me is Muddu Sudhakar. He's a long time alum of theCube, a technologist and executive, a serial entrepreneur and an investor. Welcome my friend, good to see you. >> Good to see you, Dave. Pleasure to be with you. Happy elections, I guess. >> Yeah, yeah. So I wanted to start, this work from home, pivot's been amazing, and you've seen the enterprise collaboration explode. I wrote a piece a couple months ago, looking at valuations of various companies, right around the snowflake IPO, I want to ask you about that, but I was looking at the valuations of various companies, at Spotify, and Shopify, and of course Zoom was there. And I was looking at just simple revenue multiples, and I said, geez, Zoom actually looks, might look undervalued, which is crazy, right? And of course the stock went up after that, and you see teams, Microsoft Teams, and Microsoft doing a great job across the board, we've written about that, you're seeing Webex is exploding, I mean, what do you make of this whole enterprise collaboration play? >> No, I think the look there is a trend here, right? So I think this probably trend started before COVID, but COVID is going to probably accelerate this whole digital transformation, right? People are going to work remotely a lot more, not everybody's going to come back to the offices even after COVID, so I think this whole collaboration through Slack, and Zoom, and Microsoft Teams and Webex, it's going to be the new game now, right? Both the video, audio and chat solutions, that's really going to help people like eyeballs. You're not going to spend time on all four of them, right? It's like everyday from a consumer side, you're going to spend time on your Gmail, Facebook, maybe Twitter, maybe Instagram, so like in the consumer side, on your personal life, you have something on the enterprise. The eyeballs are going to be in these platforms. >> Yeah. Well. >> But we're not going to take everything. >> Well, So you are right, there's a permanence to this, and I got a lot of ground to cover with you. And I always like our conversations mood because you tell it like it is, I'm going to stay on that work from home pivot. You know a lot about security, but you've seen three big trends, like mega trends in security, Endpoint, Identity Access Management, and Cloud Security, you're seeing this in the stock prices of companies like CrowdStrike, Zscaler, Okta- >> Right >> Sailpoint- >> Right, I mean, they exploded, as a result of the pandemic, and I think I'm inferring from your comment that you see that as permanent, but that's a real challenge from a security standpoint. What's the impact of Cloud there? >> No, it isn't impact but look, first is all the services required to be Cloud, right? See, the whole ideas for it to collaborate and do these things. So you cannot be running an application, like you can't be running conference and SharePoint oN-Prem, and try to on a Zoom and MS teams. So that's why, if you look at Microsoft is very clever, they went with Office 365, SharePoint 365, now they have MS Teams, so I think that Cloud is going to drive all these workloads that you have been talking about a lot, right? You and John have been saying this for years now. The eruption of Cloud and SAS services are the vehicle to drive this next-generation collaboration. >> You know what's so cool? So Cloud obviously is the topic, I wonder how you look at the last 10 years of Cloud, and maybe we could project forward, I mean the big three Cloud vendors, they're running it like $20 billion a quarter, and they're growing collectively, 35, 40% clips, so we're really approaching a hundred billion dollars for these three. And you hear stats like only 20% of the workloads are in the public Cloud, so it feels like we're just getting started. How do you look at the impact of Cloud on the market, as you say, the last 10 years, and what do you expect going forward? >> No, I think it's very fascinating, right? So I remember when theCube, you guys are talking about 10 years back, now it's been what? More than 10 years, 15 years, since AWS came out with their first S3 service back in 2006. >> Right. >> Right? so I think look, Cloud is going to accelerate even more further. The areas is going to accelerate is for different reasons. I think now you're seeing the initial days, it's all about startups, initial workloads, Dev test and QA test, now you're talking about real production workloads are moving towards Cloud, right? Initially it was backup, we really didn't care for backup they really put there. Now you're going to have Cloud health primary services, your primary storage will be there, it's not going to be an EMC, It's not going to be a ETAP storage, right? So workloads are going to shift from the business applications, and this business App again, will be running on the Cloud, and I'll make another prediction, make customer service and support. Customer service and support, again, we should be running on the Cloud. You're not want to run the thing on a Dell server, or an IBM server, or an HP server, with your own hosted environment. That model is not because there's no economies of scale. So to your point, what will drive Cloud for the next 10 years, will be economies of scale. Where can you take the cost? How can I save money? If you don't move to the Cloud, you won't save money. So all those workloads are going to go to the Cloud are people who really want to save, like global gradual custom, right? If you stay on the ASP model, a hosted, you're not going to save your costs, your costs will constantly go up from a SAS perspective. >> So that doesn't bode well for all the On-prem guys, and you hear a lot of the vendors that don't own a Cloud that talk about repatriation, but the numbers don't support that. So what do those guys do? I mean, they're talking multi-Cloud, of course they're talking hybrid, that's IBM's big play, how do you see it? >> I think, look, see there, to me, multi-Cloud makes sense, right? You don't want one vendor that you never want to get, so having Amazon, Microsoft, Google, it gives them a multi-Cloud. Even hybrid Cloud does make sense, right? There'll be some workloads. It's like, we are still running On-prem environment, we still have mainframe, so it's never going to be a hundred percent, but I would say the majority, your question is, can we get to 60, 70, 80% workers in the next 10 years? I think you will. I think by 2025, more than 78% of the Cloud Migration by the next five years, 70% of workload for enterprise will be on the Cloud. The remaining 25, maybe Hybrid, maybe On-prem, but I get panics, really doesn't matter. You have saved and part of your business is running on the Cloud. That's your cost saving, that's where you'll see the economies of scale, and that's where all the growth will happen. >> So square the circle for me, because again, you hear the stat on the IDC stat, IBM Ginni Rometty puts it out there a lot that only 20% of the workloads are in the public Cloud, everything else is On-prem, but it's not a zero sum game, right? I mean the Cloud native stuff is growing like crazy, the On-prem stuff is flat to down, so what's going to happen? When you talk about 70% of the workloads will be in the Cloud, do you see those mission critical apps and moving into the car, I mean the insurance companies going to put their claims apps in the Cloud, or the financial services companies going to put their mission critical workloads in the Cloud, or they just going to develop new stuff that's Cloud native that is sort of interacts with the On-prem. How do you see that playing out? >> Yeah, no, I think absolutely, I think a very good question. So two things will happen. I think if you take an enterprise, right? Most businesses what they'll do is the workloads that they should not be running On-prem, they'll move it up. So obviously things like take, as I said, I use the word SharePoint, right? SharePoint and conference, all the knowledge stuff is still running on people's data centers. There's no reason. I understand, I've seen statistics that 70, 80% of the On-prem for SharePoint will move to SharePoint on the Cloud. So Microsoft is going to make tons of money on that, right? Same thing, databases, right? Whether it's CQL server, whether there is Oracle database, things that you are running as a database, as a Cloud, we move to the Cloud. Whether that is posted in Oracle Cloud, or you're running Oracle or Mongo DB, or Dynamo DB on AWS or SQL server Microsoft, that's going to happen. Then what you're talking about is really the App concept, the applications themselves, the App server. Is the App server is going to run On-prem, how much it's going to laureate outside? There may be a hybrid Cloud, like for example, Kafka. I may use a Purse running on a Kafka as a service, or I may be using Elasticsearch for my indexing on AWS or Google Cloud, but I may be running my App locally. So there'll be some hybrid place, but what I would say is for every application, 75% of your Comprende will be on the Cloud. So think of it like the Dev. So even for the On-prem app, you're not going to be a 100 percent On-prem. The competent, the billing materials will move to the Cloud, your Purse, your storage, because if you put it On-prem, you need to add all this, you need to have all the whole things to buy it and hire the people, so that's what is going to happen. So from a competent perspective, 70% of your bill of materials will move to the Cloud, even for an On-prem application. >> So, Of course, the susification of the industry in the last decade and in my three favorite companies last decade, you've worked for two of them, Tableau, ServiceNow, and Splunk. I want to ask you about those, but I'm interested in the potential disruption there. I mean, you've got these SAS companies, Salesforce of course is another one, but they can't get started in 1999. What do you see happening with those? I mean, we're basically building these sort of large SAS, platforms, now. Do you think that the Cloud native world that developers can come at this from an angle where they can disrupt those companies, or are they too entrenched? I mean, look at service now, I mean, I don't know, $80 billion market capital where they are, they bigger than Workday, I mean, just amazing how much they've grown and you feel like, okay, nothing can stop them, but there's always disruption in this industry, what are your thoughts on that. >> Not very good with, I think there'll be disrupted. So to me actually to your point, ServiceNow is now close to a 100 billion now, 95 billion market coverage, crazy. So from evaluation perspective, so I think the reason they'll be disrupted is that the SAS vendors that you talked about, ServiceNow, and all this plan, most of these services, they're truly not a multi-tenant or what do you call the Cloud Native. And that is the Accenture. So because of that, they will not be able to pass the savings back to the enterprises. So the cost economics, the economics that the Cloud provides because of the multi tenancy ability will not. The second reason there'll be disrupted is AI. So far, we talked about Cloud, but AI is the core. So it's not really Cloud Native, Dave, I look at the AI in a two-piece. AI is going to change, see all the SAS vendors were created 20 years back, if you remember, was an operator typing it, I don't respond administered we'll type a Splunk query. I don't need a human to type a query anymore, system will actually find it, that's what the whole security game has changed, right? So what's going to happen is if you believe in that, that AI, your score will disrupt all the SAS vendors, so one angle SAS is going to have is a Cloud. That's where you make the Cloud will take up because a SAS application will be Cloudified. Being SAS is not Cloud, right? Second thing is SAS will be also, I call it, will be AI-fied. So AI and machine learning will be trying to drive at the core so that I don't need that many licenses. I don't need that many humans. I don't need that many administrators to manage, I call them the tuners. Once you get a driverless car, you don't need a thousand tuners to tune your Tesla, or Google Waymo car. So the same philosophy will happen is your Dev Apps, your administrators, your service management, people that you need for service now, and these products, Zendesk with AI, will tremendously will disrupt. >> So you're saying, okay, so yeah, I was going to ask you, won't the SAS vendors, won't they be able to just put, inject AI into their platforms, and I guess I'm inferring saying, yeah, but a lot of the problems that they're solving, are going to go away because of AI, is that right? And automation and RPA and things of that nature, is that right? >> Yes and no. So I'll tell you what, sorry, you have asked a very good question, let's answer, let me rephrase that question. What you're saying is, "Why can't the existing SAS vendors do the AI?" >> Yes, right. >> Right, >> And there's a reason they can't do it is their pricing model is by number of seats. So I'm not going to come to Dave, and say, come on, come pay me less money. It's the same reason why a board and general lover build an electric car. They're selling 10 million gasoline cars. There's no incentive for me, I'm not going to do any AI, I'm going to put, I'm not going to come to you and say, hey, buy me a hundred less license next year from it. So that is one reason why AI, even though these guys do any AI, it's going to be just so I call it, they're going to, what do you call it, a whitewash, kind of like you put some paint brush on it, trying to show you some AI you did from a marketing dynamics. But at the core, if you really implement the AI with you take the driver out, how are you going to change the pricing model? And being a public company, you got to take a hit on the pricing model and the price, and it's going to have a stocking part. So that, to your earlier question, will somebody disrupt them? The person who is going to disrupt them, will disrupt them on the pricing model. >> Right. So I want to ask you about that, because we saw a Snowflake, and it's IPO, we were able to pour through its S-1, and they have a different pricing model. It's a true Cloud consumption model, Whereas of course, most SAS companies, they're going to lock you in for at least one year term, maybe more, and then, you buy the license, you got to pay X. If you, don't use it, you still got to pay for it. Snowflake's different, actually they have a different problem, that people are using it too much and the sea is driving the CFO crazy because the bill is going up and up and up, but to me, that's the right model, It's just like the Amazon model, if you can justify it, so how do you see the pricing, that consumption model is actually, you're seeing some of the On-prem guys at HPE, Dell, they're doing as a service. They're kind of taking a page out of the last decade SAS model, so I think pricing is a real tricky one, isn't it? >> No, you nailed it, you nailed it. So I think the way in which the Snowflake there, how the disruptors are data warehouse, that disrupted the open source vendors too. Snowflake distributed, imagine the playbook, you disrupted something as the $ 0, right? It's an open source with Cloudera, Hortonworks, Mapper, that whole big data that you want me to, or that market is this, that disrupting data warehouses like Netezza, Teradata, and the charging more money, they're making more money and disrupting at $0, because the pricing models by consumption that you talked about. CMT is going to happen in the service now, Zen Desk, well, 'cause their pricing one is by number of seats. People are going to say, "How are my users are going to ask?" right? If you're an employee help desk, you're back to your original health collaborative. I may be on Slack, I could be on zoom, I'll maybe on MS Teams, I'm going to ask by using usage model on Slack, tools by employees to service now is the pricing model that people want to pay for. The more my employees use it, the more value I get. But I don't want to pay by number of seats, so the vendor, who's going to figure that out, and that's where I look, if you know me, I'm right over as I started, that's what I've tried to push that model look, I love that because that's the core of how you want to change the new game. >> I agree. I say, kill me with that problem, I mean, some people are trying to make it a criticism, but you hit on the point. If you pay more, it's only because you're getting more value out of it. So I wanted to flip the switch here a little bit and take a customer angle. Something that you've been on all sides. And I want to talk a little bit about strategies, you've been a strategist, I guess, once a strategist, always a strategist. How should organizations be thinking about their approach to Cloud, it's cost different for different industries, but, back when the cube started, financial services Cloud was a four-letter word. But of course the age of company is going to matter, but what's the framework for figuring out your Cloud strategy to get to your 70% and really take advantage of the economics? Should I be Mono Cloud, Multi-Cloud, Multi-vendor, what would you advise? >> Yeah, no, I mean, I mean, I actually call it the tech stack. Actually you and John taught me that what was the tech stack, like the lamp stack, I think there is a new Cloud stack needs to come, and that I think the bottomline there should be... First of all, anything with storage should be in the Cloud. I mean, if you want to start, whether you are, financial, doesn't matter, there's no way. I come from cybersecurity side, I've seen it. Your attackers will be more with insiders than being on the Cloud, so storage has to be in the Cloud and encompass compute whoever it is. If you really want to use containers and Kubernetes, it has to be in the public Cloud, leverage that have the computer on their databases. That's where it can be like if your data is so strong, maybe run it On-prem, maybe have it on a hosted model for when it comes to database, but there you have a choice between hybrid Cloud and public Cloud choice. Then on top when it comes to App, the app itself, you can run locally or anywhere, the App and database. Now the areas that you really want to go after to migrate is look at anything that's an enterprise workload that you don't need people to manage it. You want your own team to move up in the career. You don't want thousand people looking at... you don't want to have a, for example, IT administrators to call central people to the people to manage your compute storage. That workload should be more, right? You already saw Sierra moved out to Salesforce. We saw collaboration already moved out. Zoom is not running locally. You already saw SharePoint with knowledge management mode up, right? With a box, drawbacks, you name anything. The next global mode is a SAS workloads, right? I think Workday service running there, but work data will go into the Cloud. I bet at some point Zendesk, ServiceNow, then either they put it on the public Cloud, or they have to create a product and public Cloud. To your point, these public Cloud vendors are at $2 trillion market cap. They're they're bigger than the... I call them nation States. >> Yeah, >> So I'm servicing though. I mean, there's a 2 trillion market gap between Amazon and Azure, I'm not going to compete with them. So I want to take this workload to run it there. So all these vendors, if you see that's where Shandra from Adobe is pushing this right, Adobe, Workday, Anaplan, all the SAS vendors we'll move them into the public Cloud within these vendors. So those workloads need to move out, right? So that all those things will start, then you'll start migrating, but I call your procurement. That's where the RPA comes in. The other thing that we didn't talk about, back to your first question, what is the next 10 years of Cloud will be RPA? That third piece to Cloud is RPA because if you have your systems On-prem, I can't automate them. I have to do a VPN into your house there and then try to automate your systems, or your procurement, et cetera. So all these RPA vendors are still running On-prem, most of them, whether it's UI path automation anywhere. So the Cloud should be where the brain should be. That's what I call them like the octopus analogy, the brain is in the Cloud, the tentacles are everywhere, they should manage it. But if my tentacles have to do a VPN with your house to manage it, I'm always will have failures. So if you look at the why RPA did not have the growth, like the Snowflake, like the Cloud, because they are running it On-prem, most of them still. 80% of the RP revenue is On-prem, running On-prem, that needs to be called clarified. So AI, RPA and the SAS, are the three reasons Cloud will take off. >> Awesome. Thank you for that. Now I want to flip the switch again. You're an investor or a multi-tool player here, but so if you're, let's say you're an ecosystem player, and you're kind of looking at the landscape as you're in an investor, of course you've invested in the Cloud, because the Cloud is where it's at, but you got to be careful as an ecosystem player to pick a spot that both provides growth, but allows you to have a moat as, I mean, that's why I'm really curious to see how Snowflake's going to compete because they're competing with AWS, Microsoft, and Google, unlike, Frank, when he was at service now, he was competing with BMC and with on-prem and he crushed it, but the competitors are much more capable here, but it seems like they've got, maybe they've got a moat with MultiCloud, and that whole data sharing thing, we'll see. But, what about that? Where are the opportunities? Where's that white space? And I know there's a lot of white space, but what's the framework to look at, from an investor standpoint, or even a CEO standpoint, where you want to put place your bets. >> No, very good question, so look, I did something. We talk as an investor in the board with many companies, right? So one thing that says as an investor, if you come back and say, I want to create a next generation Docker or a computer, there's no way nobody's going to invest. So that we can motor off, even if you want to do object storage or a block storage, I mean, I've been an investor board member of so many storage companies, there's no way as an industry, I'll write a check for a compute or storage, right? If you want to create a next generation network, like either NetSuite, or restart Juniper, Cisco, there is no way. But if you come back and say, I want to create a next generation Viper for remote working environments, where AI is at the core, I'm interested in that, right? So if you look at how the packets are dropped, there's no intelligence in either not switching today. The packets come, I do it. The intelligence is not built into the network with AI level. So if somebody comes with an AI, what good is all this NVD, our GPS, et cetera, if you cannot do wire speed, packet inspection, looking at the content and then route the traffic. If I see if it's a video package, but in UN Boston, there's high interview day of they should be loading our package faster, because you are a premium ISP. That intelligence has not gone there. So you will see, and that will be a bad people will happen in the network, switching, et cetera, right? So that is still an angle. But if you work and it comes to platform services, remember when I was at Pivotal and VMware, all models was my boss, that would, yes, as a platform, service is a game already won by the Cloud guys. >> Right. (indistinct) >> Silicon Valley Investors, I don't think you want to invest in past services, right? I mean, you might come with some lecture edition database to do some updates, there could be some game, let's say we want to do a time series database, or some metrics database, there's always some small angle, but the opportunity to go create a national database there it's very few. So I'm kind of eliminating all the black spaces, right? >> Yeah. >> We have the white spaces that comes in is the SAS level. Now to your point, if I'm Amazon, I'm going to compete with Snowflake, I have Redshift. So this is where at some point, these Cloud platforms, I call them aircraft carriers. They're not going to stay on the aircraft carriers, they're going to own the land as well. So they're going to move up to the SAS space. The question is you want to create a SAS service like CRM. They are not going to create a CRM like service, they may not create a sales force and service now, but if you're going to add a data warehouse, I can very well see Azure, Google, and AWS, going to create something to compute a Snowflake. Why would I not? It's so close to my database and data warehouse, I already have Redshift. So that's going to be nightlights, same reason, If you look at Netflix, you have a Netflix and you have Amazon prime. Netflix runs on Amazon, but you have Amazon prime. So you have the same model, you have Snowflake, and you'll have Redshift. The both will help each other, there'll be a... What do you call it? Coexistence will happen. But if you really want to invest, you want to invest in SAS companies. You do not want to be investing in a compliment players. You don't want to a feature. >> Yeah, that's great, I appreciate that perspective. And I wonder, so obviously Microsoft play in SAS, Google's got G suite. And I wonder if people often ask the Andy Jassy, you're going to move up the stack, you got to be an application, a SAS vendor, and you never say never with Atavist, But I wonder, and we were talking to Jerry Chen about this, years ago on theCube, and his angle was that Amazon will play, but they'll play through developers. They'll enable developers, and they'll participate, they'll take their, lick off the cone. So it's going to be interesting to see how directly Amazon plays, but at some point you got Tam expansion, you got to play in that space. >> Yeah, I'll give you an example of knowing, I got acquired by a couple of times by EMC. So I learned a lot from Joe Tucci and Paul Merage over the years. see Paul and Joe, what they did is to look at how 20 years, and they are very close to Boston in your area, Joe, what games did is they used to sell storage, but you know what he did, he went and bought the Apps to drive them. He bought like Legato, he bought Documentum, he bought Captiva, if you remember how he acquired all these companies as a services, he bought VMware to drive that. So I think the good angle that Microsoft has is, I'm a SAS player, I have dynamics, I have CRM, I have SharePoint, I have Collaboration, I have Office 365, MS Teams for users, and then I have the platform as Azure. So I think if I'm Amazon, (indistinct). I got to own the apps so that I can drive this workforce on my platform. >> Interesting. >> Just going to developers, like I know Jerry Chan, he was my peer a BMF. I don't think just literally to developers and that model works in open source, but the open source game is pretty much gone, and not too many companies made money. >> Well, >> Most companies pretty much gone. >> Yeah, he's right. Red hats not bad idea. But it's very interesting what you're saying there. And so, hey, its why Oracle wants to have Tiktok, running on their platform, right? I mean, it's going to. (laughing) It's going to drive that further integration. I wanted to ask you something, you were talking about, you wouldn't invest in storage or compute, but I wonder, and you mentioned some commentary about GPU's. Of course the videos has been going crazy, but they're now saying, okay, how do we expand our Team, they make the acquisition of arm, et cetera. What about this DPU thing, if you follow that, that data processing unit where they're like hyper dis-aggregation and then they reaggregate, and as an offload and really to drive data centric workloads. Have you looked at that at all? >> I did, I think, and that's a good angle. So I think, look, it's like, it goes through it. I don't know if you remember in your career, we have seen it. I used to get Silicon graphics. I saw the first graphic GPU, right? That time GPU was more graphic processor unit, >> Right, yeah, work stations. >> So then become NPUs at work processing units, right? There was a TCP/IP office offloading, if you remember right, there was like vector processing unit. So I think every once in a while the industry, recreated this separate unit, as a co-processor to the main CPU, because main CPU's inefficient, and it makes sense. And then Google created TPU's and then we have the new world of the media GPU's, now we have DPS all these are good, but what's happening is, all these are driving for machine learning, AI for the training period there. Training period Sometimes it's so long with the workloads, if you can cut down, it makes sense. >> Yeah. >> Because, but the question is, these aren't so specialized in nature. I can't use it for everything. >> Yup. >> I want Ideally, algorithms to be paralyzed, I want the training to be paralyzed, I want so having deep use and GPS are important, I think where I want to see them as more, the algorithm, there should be more investment from the NVIDIA's and these guys, taking the algorithm to be highly paralyzed them. (indistinct) And I think that still has not happened in industry yet. >> All right, so we're pretty much out of time, but what are you doing these days? Where are you spending your time, are you still in Stealth, give us a little glimpse. >> Yeah, no, I'm out of the Stealth, I'm actually the CEO of Aisera now, Aisera, obviously I invested with them, but I'm the CEO of Aisero. It's funded by Menlo ventures, Norwest, True, along with Khosla ventures and Ram Shriram is a big investor. Robin's on the board of Google, so these guys, look, we are going out to the collaboration game. How do you automate customer service and support for employees and then users, right? In this whole game, we talked about the Zoom, Slack and MS Teams, that's what I'm spending time, I want to create next generation service now. >> Fantastic. Muddu, I always love having you on you, pull punches, you tell it like it is, that you're a great visionary technologist. Thanks so much for coming on theCube, and participating in our program. >> Dave, it's always a pleasure speaking to you sir. Thank you. >> Okay. Keep it right there, there's more coming from Cuba and Cloud right after this break. (slow music)

>> Announcer: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE Conversation. >> Hi everybody, this is Dave Vellante, and back in 2013, when it was becoming pretty obvious that the cloud was going to have a major impact on our industry, the IT industry, I wrote at the time that the way incumbents were going to have to compete was to really go into vertical markets and build ecosystems for their own clouds, and that's exactly what IBM did late last year, when it announced a major partnership with Bank of America in the financial services cloud, and guess what, Hillery Hunter is back in the house, she's the vice president and CTO of the IBM cloud, and an IBM fellow, Hillery, great to see you again, thanks for coming back on. >> Thanks so much for having me again, always a pleasure to be here. >> So we had an awesome conversation, I think we got into the FS cloud a little bit, but as I was saying, you guys announced last year, Bank of America, but let me start here. Why does the industry need a financial services cloud? >> Yeah, you know, it's key that we ground ourselves in that question of why a financial services cloud, and I think it really goes back to the sensitivity of the workloads and the data that that industry stewards. The financial services industry stewards the data of millions and millions of customers, and they are heavily regulated because of that, and they handle very high value transactions, and being able to take that context and translate that into what does it mean to do high value transactions, sensitive data, consumer data computing, also with all those benefits of elasticity and the value proposition of different deployment locations, is really what financial cloud is about. And those needs of that industry are a little bit different, the regulations are higher, the bar and data protection is higher, and the need to interlock across workload characteristics and the cloud deployment is a bit different. And so, we are bringing what we know about that industry to bear in the context also of cloud computing. >> Okay, so you're making some new announcements, there's some hard news here, but I want to know, if you're an executive, or business leader in the financial services industry, what's in it for me in these announcements? >> Yeah, what's in it for you is that we are moving into the next phase of financial services cloud in making the policy framework that has been developed through an enormous amount of work available to additional industry participants, and we're also moving into a phase of global expansion, and so being able to take this value proposition of an end to end considered secure and confine environment for financial services, out to more players in the industry, out to additional geographies and deployment locations, it's an exciting moment because everyone's really not looking just for a cloud, but they're looking for a choice of deployment locations, they're looking to move more workload to the cloud, and this is really about providing a cloud solution that more workload can move to, not just the first couple phases of analytics and things like that, but also moving into more transformation of the core of banking and the core of banking business, so it is about getting more workload to the cloud, getting that done faster, and getting it done at a net improved security and compliance posture. >> Got it, so I want to ask you about some learnings, now you're the double whammy of learnings here. When you announced the collaboration with B of A, obviously one of the top banks of the world, you've obviously made some progress since then, but the other part of that whammy was COVID. So what did you learn from the collaboration with B of A, and have you guys, how have you expanded your thinking BC, from before COVID, versus AC, after COVID? >> Yeah, you know, the initial motivation for this program was about having trust and transparency in public cloud, and having a public cloud suited also to sensitive and even core banking workloads. We have seen this conversation and the need for it and the urgency for it only pick up since COVID. A lot of things in the world kind of took a pause, but cloud computing really accelerated. We're seeing that businesses need to digitally transform their banking, so core banking transformation is a very hot topic. They need to deal with elasticity, we worked with banks during COVID that were having to suddenly stand up their national equivalent of the Payroll Protection Program. Banks that had to suddenly have three times the elasticity, because all of a sudden consumers were interacting with them purely digitally. And cloud can enable all of those kind of things, and so COVID has really accelerated the motivation toward banking in the cloud, and also toward core banking transformation, which is at the heart of setting a very high security bar in public cloud, to be able to also enable those kind of workloads. >> Yeah, so many changes as a result of COVID, I mean the volume of loans, like you said, everything was digital. I know a lot of older people that always still like to go into the bank, that like to see people, and they knew people and people knew them, well they had no choice but to go digital, so that's huge, if you didn't have a digital solution, and cloud is fundamental in that equation. But let's get into it a little bit more. We talked a little about this at IBM Think, but what are the key attributes that make the IBM financial services cloud suitable for financial services, is it the certifications, I wonder if you could add some color there. >> Yeah, so the key elements of the financial services cloud program are number one, a policy framework, which is a set of controls that are customized to the financial services industry, so this isn't about some existing standard, this is a customization of controls and security for the financial services industry, and that's a major element of what we're announcing right now. In addition to the policy framework is also the way that the different elements of the industry and of regulatory expertise are coming together, so this cloud, and these public cloud offerings, were co-developed and co-designed with IBM Promontory, with IBM Security Services that work with banks, with our anchor partner, and moving forward, we'll be advised by an advisory council of CSOs who have that day to day experience with security and with regulations. And so that is also a very unique context for not this being just a point in time with a policy framework, but being an ongoing initiative that will stay up to date, as security concerns and as regulatory concerns change. And the third aspect is a really unique set of technologies that make all of that possible, so you have to define how the cloud is going to be secure, and then you have to actually do it, and the unique capabilities that we have in IBM public cloud that have enabled this program include a number of things, but amongst them, the industry's highest standard for data protection, with our FIPS-140-2 Level 4 based key protect service, it includes capabilities that we'll be releasing through our acquisition of Spanugo around cloud security and compliance posture management, mapped back to that context of financial services. And so it's really three things, it's a policy framework custom and optimized for the financial services industry, the forward evolution of that through industry expertise, and participation of multi parties in that, and then core technologies that enable folks to accomplish that security posture through data protection, through cloud security posture management, et cetera. >> I forgot about the Promontory, you guys made that acquisition several years ago, that's a nice little feature of the FS cloud. But I want to ask, how hard is it to get these certifications? I mean it's obviously not a layup. Lot of work, lot of time, my reason of my question, is this a moat for you, as you guys start to scale? How difficult is it? >> Yeah, so we have been putting in the time and effort, and so that's why this is an exciting moment for us with the initial work product of this effort. And so our intention really is not for that to be a moat, but for us having traversed the moat, to now have a bridge there through the methodology that we built, through the control framework that we built, for others to now get across that moat. And so this is really about taking what is an extensive amount of work, and an extensive amount of expertise, IBM Promontory, you just mentioned, but they monitor over 70 regulatory obligations in over 20 jurisdictions globally, right? I mean this is a tremendous depth of expertise, and so having crossed the moat, and having built the bridge across it, this is where we can then help others to save time in this process of adopting public cloud for further workloads. >> You've mentioned workloads, you've talked about core financial workloads, but maybe give us a little insight on what type of workloads are the most suitable for the financial services cloud, because let's face it, most of the hardcore mission-critical workloads haven't moved, actually probably none of 'em have moved to the cloud, you kind of referenced that before. Ginni Rometty talks about that all the time. But what are the right workload strategic fits for your cloud? >> Yeah, you know you mentioned Ginni Rometty, and so I'll take a quick note there from some of the language that you'll hear her use, she talks about, there was chapter one of the cloud journey, and stuff that was on less sensitive data, analytics, some things on public information, were certainly done, also in finance and also in regulated industries in the cloud. And she talks about chapter two, chapter two being mission-critical workloads. And this program really is the definition of chapter two for the financial services industry. It is the enabling expertise, the enabling control set, the enabling security technologies, the enabling cloud services, for that chapter two, right, for that next layer of adoption of things that had been kept behind the firewall, had been kept in a private cloud context, can now be considered also for public cloud. And so easing that adoption, streamlining that process, et cetera, is really what we're looking to accomplish. >> I mean obviously IBM, huge presence in the banking community, is this really for just big banks? What about the ecosystem, what do you got in there for ISVs and SaaS providers? >> Yeah, you know, you asked me a question at the beginning here about COVID and what's happened, and I think, the transformation of ISV providers to become SaaS providers, the expansion of their capabilities being needed in payments and digital client experiences and such, also for regionals and second and third tier banking institutions and such, is as much of what is happening right now as anything else, amongst the first tiers, because there's just as much pressure for transformation and digital consumer experience, and other things like that, also in the regionals and second and third tiers. So part of our announcement is around the ecosystem of partners that we have now for the financial services cloud program. And that includes ISVs and SaaS providers that are servicing many different types of needs of institutions large and small, so we're seeing those that are servicing core banking, and payments, those that are servicing analytics use cases for this industry, and even HR function, just because of that concern about stewarding data well for these industries and those first tier banks, and so that transition to digital, that drive to infuse AI capabilities, the need to transform core banking, is something that's very much also happening within the ISV and SaaS providers, and we're thrilled with the wide variety of partner base that we're seeing develop there within our ecosystem for this program. >> I was talking to a CIO friend of mine several years ago, and he said to me, "You know, this idea of lifting and shifting, "it's fine, you get little cost savings, maybe, "but unless you change your operating model "and you drive an innovation agenda, "you really aren't going to get the type "of telephone number returns from cloud "that you would want or expect." So my question is around innovation, and we've said many times in theCUBE that the new innovation cocktail, it's not Moore's law anymore, it's the combination of data applying machine intelligence and then the cloud, and the reason why the cloud is important is scale, okay, there's maybe a little bit of cost as well, but it's also innovation. It's the ability to attract people into an ecosystem, and that resonates with line of business. If your cloud is just about making IT's life better, well that's nice, but what's in this announcement and in this initiative for the line of business? >> Yeah, it is all about the workloads. I always say that to me the cloud journey is about, number one your platform, which is the thing onto which you modernize. It is what are you going to get out of moving to containers, what are you going to get out of moving to microservices, how does that help all of those cloud metrics that you mentioned? But number two, it's about the workload, right, which workloads are we talking about, how will they deliver, how will those workloads be able to because of cloud deliver not just TCO but improvement in customer experience, how will those workloads be able to meet elasticity, resiliency, cybersecurity concerns, changes in the way the workforce is working these days, et cetera. And from the line of business perspective, there is a tremendous need to consume, for example, fintech-based innovation. But a lot of folks have struggled to move past POCs because of concerns about security and compliance, for those deployment scenarios, and so being able to bring the ISVs and SaaS providers, and then also fintechs into an ecosystem with a prescriptive and proactive security and compliance context is really what we're all about here. And that will enable a flourishing of adoption of innovation. >> You know, I always love to talk about the competition on these episodes. But I want to ask differentiation, how different is this, can I just go to any cloud supplier and get this, will I eventually be able to, what's IBM's differentiation, Hillery? >> Yeah, so you want to think of it that, in financial services, you are concerned, and you have to be concerned about everything. You have to be concerned about things into the details of the cloud itself, you have to be concerned about things that are related to the behavior and the permissions of your developers in that environment. Financial services cloud really has to be an end to end, soup to nuts conversation, and so this is a program of our public cloud, where end to end, we can stand behind and provide trust and resiliency and this policy framework, end to end within an environment that can be trusted for mission-critical workload. And so when we look at differentiation, our investments are in bringing together IBM's expertise all the way going back to regulations and security consulting that we've been doing for decades in this industry, applying that to that cloud context, taking capabilities that are developed all the way down into the transistors, investments we've made even into the silicon around how cryptography is done, bringing that into the cloud context. And so having brought those things together into our public cloud context, that's how we're able to solution this in a different way, because it really is end to end about the expertise, from all of that regulatory advising, that security context, all the way down into the silicon and the transistors, and I think that's a very unique value proposition, as a cloud provider, it's a tremendous opportunity for us to bring together those pieces. And to continue to be a trusted partner to these companies that we have long been a trusted partner of. >> Now of course you guys have a relationship with VMware, you were the first, actually, to announce a VMware cloud relationship. And so let's say, okay, I got some VMware workloads, I move 'em into your FS cloud. Make sure that I've got the security and compliance checked. Six months down the road, so I've done that sort of first step, what's next for me, is that the end, or are there other things on my journey? >> Yeah, so absolutely, I mean VMware is part of what we are solution financial services clients to, but also cloud-native, and OpenShift, containerization, that modernization journey, is an ongoing journey for everyone, and so to your point of what's next, we're seeing a continual conversation of balancing lift and shift and modernization across workloads, and there are different reasons at different points in time, for people to consider that. I think the key is that they trust where they are taking that data, and whatever the form is that the workload goes, it needs to be in the context of that trust around the data in a security context, and so we're absolutely seeing everything, honestly, from financial services institutions looking to engage with us, also in our new research innovation lab, where we're engaging directly with financial services clients that are trying to work through this differentiation, is it virtualization, is it containerization, is it even serverless? What is the right and most effective balance of how workloads are programmed and run for the next generation of banking. >> You know, Hillery, I've been doing a lot of interviews in the last decade, and it's been interesting to see the ascendancy of cloud, of course, but also the change in perception, particularly in financial services, in the early days of cloud, cloud was an evil word. The C that should not be named. And so I want to understand if I'm, and of course COVID has also changed the perception, because if you weren't digital and you didn't have cloud, you couldn't really transact businesses as well, you didn't have that business resiliency. So, what if I'm a financial services person now, okay, I'm through the knothole, I want to get started, where do I start? >> Yeah, well call us first, but past that, I think that the conversations, the first conversations that we're having with our clients are, number one, do you have an architecture? So is cloud not just a place, like I like to say, but is cloud a plan, is there an architectural plan to enable you to have consistency, for example, in your developer experience between your private cloud environment and your public cloud environment? Architecturally are there those foundational choices around common services about being able to deploy capabilities in one location, and develop them in another, et cetera. All those value propositions of what we have been creating around OpenShift and Cloud Paks in our public cloud, and consistency across different environments and such, I think that's the first thing to start with is architecting a cloud, not accidental usage of multiple environments, but architecting use of multiple environments. And then I think the second conversation is to make a security and compliance plan that is going to be robust enough to withstand even the intense scrutiny of a regulated industry CCO and risk team, and so that's the other foundational conversation that we're having with our clients, and helping them with, so we can provide services and reference architectures, and all that other kind of thing, to enable them to stabilize planning on both fronts, both architecturally for what cloud means in its entirety, not just a cloud, but in its entirety, all clouds, multicloud, hybrid cloud, et cetera. And then secondly, then, a comprehensive security plan for that public cloud choice, and that's what we're really locking down with this policy framework, is bringing standardization on that for public cloud. >> Well, lot of innovation for the financial services community, which is again your wheelhouse. I wrote a piece right around Think that IBM's future rests on its innovation agenda, and I'm glad you brought up the notion of private, public, and then the whole hybrid thing, because I see OpenShift as a key, and RedHat as a key enabler of that across whether it's cloud, on-prem, edge, across multiple clouds. That's an ambitious agenda, as somebody who's responsible for cloud. That is something that is real innovation, and really differentiable I think, in the marketplace, and probably pretty expensive to build out across all those different platforms. >> Yeah, it is, but I think on the word innovation, my mind, as an IBMer, goes to the IBM research division. Thousands of researchers globally, and they've very much been a part of this journey with us. The journey with us on containerization, the journey on workload modernization from monolith to microservices, the journey of our public cloud, and now also very much a part of our work in financial services, so our research division is this incredible gift and asset that we have, that is working with us also on our cloud security and compliance posture management, that security and compliance control center that we're talking about in this announcement, et cetera, and so them being a part of this innovation stream for us is a really exciting part, again, of bringing together all these different pieces that IBM has to offer in this space to make it all stack up, to be a cloud for financial services. >> I got a couple of little housekeeping items before we close here. This is announced for the US first, right? What about other regions, first of all, is that correct, and what about other regions? >> That's correct, and we are also announcing additional participation of global banking partners as well in this announcement. And so this is also again our initial public statement of our expansion past the US. >> Last question, so just give us a glimpse of the future, where do you want to be in a few years, thinking about let's say three years down the road, what's that outcome look like? >> Yeah, you know I think that three years from now, we would love to see that people are able to make a decision, going back to your question about the line of business owners, make a decision about what they're trying to accomplish with a workload, and not be held back by security and compliance concerns in terms of putting that workload where it needs to be, where it will be most efficient, and where it can be embraced by a set of cloud capabilities that enable it to move in a competitive pace forward, infusing AI into everything that is done. Leveraging the latest in technologies, and serverless computing and all these other kind of things that can facilitate a line of business delivering more value so that cloud really continues, but also realizes its promises in that chapter two version of the story, also for regulated industries and also for their mission-critical workloads. >> Well Hillery, good luck with this, I mean congratulations on the progress that you've made, really since you guys announced this late last year, and really excited to see this start to take off, and you're a great guest, love having you on, thank you so much. >> Thanks so much for having me, pleasure talking to you as always. >> All right, cheers. And thank you everybody for watching, this is Dave Vellante for theCUBE, and we'll see you next time. (calm music)

>> Announcer: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto and Boston, it's theCUBE, covering IBM Think brought to you by IBM. >> Hi, there, this is Dave Vellante. We're back at the IBM Think 2020 Digital Event Experience are socially responsible and distant. I'm here in the studios in Marlborough, our team in Palo Alto. We've been going wall to wall coverage of IBM Think, Kit Chee here is the Vice President, and general manager of Cloud and Enterprise sales at Intel. Kit, thanks for coming on. Good to see you. >> Thank you, Dave. Thank you for having me on. >> You're welcome, and Evaristus Mainsah, Mainsah is here. Mainsah, he is the general manager of the IBM Cloud Pack Ecosystem for the IBM Cloud. Evaristus, it's good to see you again. Thank you very much, I appreciate your time. >> Thank you, Dave. Thank you very much. Thanks for having me. >> You're welcome, so Kit, let me start with you. How are you guys doing? You know, there's this pandemic, never seen it before. How're things where you are? >> Yeah, so we were quite fortunate. Intel's had an epidemic leadership team. For about 15 years now, we have a team consisting of medical safety and operational professionals, and this same team has, who has navigated as across several other health issues like bad flu, Ebola, Zika and each one and one virus then navigating us at this point with this pandemic. Obviously, our top priority as it would be for IBM is protecting the health and well being of employees while keeping the business running for our customers. The company has taken the following measures to take care of it direct and indirect workforce, Dave and to ensure business continuity throughout the developing situation. They're from areas like work from home policies, keeping hourly workers home and reimbursing for daycare, elderly care, helping with WiFi policies. So that's been what we've been up to Intel's manufacturing and supply chain operations around the world world are working hard to meet demand and we are collaborating with supply pains of our customers and partners globally as well. And more recently, we have about $16 Million to support communities, from frontline health care workers and technology initiatives like online education, telemedicine and compute need to research. So that's what we've been up to date. Pretty much, you know, busy. >> You know, every society that come to you, I have to say my entire career have been in the technology business and you know, sometimes you hear negative toward the big tech but, but I got to say, just as Kit was saying, big tech has really stepped up in this crisis. IBM has been no different and, you know, tech for good and I was actually I'm really proud. How are you doing in New York City? >> Evaristus: No, thank you, Dave, for that, you know, we are, we're doing great and, and our focus has been absolutely the same, so obviously, because we provide services to clients. At a time like this, your clients need you even more, but we need to focus on our employees to make sure that their health and their safety and their well being is protected. And so we've taken this really seriously, and actually, we have two ways of doing this. One of them is just on to purpose as a, as a company, on our clients, but the other is trying to activate the ecosystem because problems of this magnitude require you to work across a broad ecosystem to, to bring forth in a solution that are long lasting, for example, we have a call for code, which where we go out and we ask developers to use their skills and open source technologies to help solve some technical problems. This year, the focus was per AVADA initiatives around computing resources, how you track the Coronavirus and other services that are provided free of charge to our clients. Let me give you a bit more color, so, so IBM recently formed the high performance computing consortium made up of the feYderal government industry and academic leaders focus on providing high performance computing to solve the COVID-19 problem. So we're currently we have 33 members, now we have 27 active products, deploying something like 400 teraflops as our petaflop 400 petaflops of compute to solve the problem. >> Well, it certainly is challenging times, but at the same time, you're both in the, in the sweet spot, which is Cloud. I've talked to a number of CIOs who have said, you know, this is really, we had a cloud strategy before but we're really accelerating our cloud strategy now and, and we see this as sort of a permanent effect. I mean, Kit, you guys, big, big on ecosystem, you, you want frankly, a level playing field, the more optionality that you can give to customers, you know, the better and Cloud is really been exploding and you guys are powering, you know, all the world's Clouds. >> We are, Dave and honestly, that's a huge responsibility that we undertake. Before the pandemic, we saw the market through the lens of four key mega trends and the experiences we are all having currently now deepens our belief in the importance of addressing these mega trends, but specifically, we see marketplace needs around key areas of cloudification of everything below point, the amount of online activities that have spiked just in the last 60 days. It's a testimony of that. Pervasive AI is the second big area that we have seen and we are now resolute on investments in that area, 5G network transformation and the edge build out. Applications run the business and we know enterprise IT faces challenges when deploying applications that require data movement between Clouds and Cloud native technologies like containers and Kubernetes will be key enablers in delivering end to end data analytics, AI, machine learning and other critical workloads and Cloud environments at the edge. Pairing Intel's data centric portfolio, including Intel's obtain SSPs with Red Hat, Openshift, and IBM Cloud Paks, enterprise can now break through storage bottlenecks and have unconstrained data availability in the hybrid and multicloud environments, so we're pretty happy with the progress we're making that together with IBM. >> Yeah, Evaristus, I mean, you guys are making some big bets. I've, you know, written and discussed in my breaking analysis, I think a lot of people misunderstand IBM Cloud, Ginni Rometty arm and a bow said, hey, you know, we're after only 20% of the workloads are in cloud, we're going after the really difficult to move workloads and the hybrid workloads, that's really the fourth foundation that Arvin you know, talks about, that you and IBM has built, you know, your mainframes, you have middleware services, and in hybrid Cloud is really that fourth sort of platform that you're building out, but you're making some bets in AI. You got other services in the Cloud like, like blockchain, you know, quantum, we've been having really interesting discussions around quantum, so I wonder if you can talk a little bit about sort of where you're allocating resources, some of the big bets that, that you're making for the next decade. >> Well, thank you very much, Dave, for that. I think what we're seeing with clients is that there's increasing focus on and, and really an acceptance, that the best way to take advantage of the Cloud is through a hybrid cloud strategy, infused with data, so it's not just the Cloud itself, but actually what you need to do to data in order to make sure that you can really, truly transform yourself digitally, to enable you to, to improve your operations, and in use your data to improve the way that you work and improve the way that you serve your clients. And what we see is and you see studies out there that say that if you adopt a hybrid cloud strategy, instead of 2.5 times more effective than a public cloud only strategy, and Why is that? Well, you get thi6ngs such as you know, the opportunity to move your application, the extent to which you move your applications to the Cloud. You get things such as you know, reduction in, in, in risk, you, you get a more flexible architecture, especially if you focus on open certification, reduction and certification reduction, some of the tools that you use, and so we see clients looking at that. The other thing that's really important, especially in this moment is business agility, and resilience. Our business agility says that if my customers used to come in, now, they can't come in anymore, because we need them to stay at home, we still need to figure out a way to serve them and we write our applications quickly enough in order to serve this new client, service client in a new way. And well, if your applications haven't been modernized, even if you've moved to the Cloud, you don't have the opportunity to do that and so many clients that have made that transformation, figure out they're much more agile, they can move more easily in this environment, and we're seeing the whole for clients saying yes, I do need to move to the Cloud, but I need somebody to help improve my business agility, so that I can transform, I can change with the needs of my clients, and with the demands of competition and this leads you then to, you know, what sort of platform do you need to enable you to do this, it's something that's open, so that you can write that application once you can run it anywhere, which is why I think the IBM position with our ecosystem and Red Hat with this open container Kubernetes environment that allows you to write application once and deploy it anywhere, is really important for clients in this environment, especially, and the Cloud Paks which is developed, which I, you know, General Manager of the Cloud Pak Ecosystem, the logic of the Cloud Paks is exactly that you'll want plans and want to modernize one, write the applications that are cloud native so that they can react more quickly to market conditions, they can react more quickly to what the clients need and they, but if they do so, they're not unlocked in a specific infrastructure that keeps them away from some of the technologies that may be available in other Clouds. So we have talked about it blockchain, we've got, you know, Watson AI, AI technologies, which is available on our Cloud. We've got the weather, company assets, those are key asset for, for many, many clients, because weather influences more than we realize, so, but if you are locked in a Cloud that didn't give you access to any of those, because you hadn't written on the same platform, you know, that's not something that you you want to support. So Red Hat's platform, which is our platform, which is open, allows you to write your application once and deploy it anyways, particularly our customers in this particular environment together with the data pieces that come on top of that, so that you can scale, scale, because, you know, you've got six people, but you need 600 of them. How do you scale them or they can use data and AI in it? >> Okay, this must be music to your ears, this whole notion of you know, multicloud because, you know, Intel's pervasive and so, because the more Clouds that are out there, the better for you, better for your customers, as I said before, the more optionality. Can you6 talk a little bit about the rela6tionship today between IBM and Intel because it's obviously evolved over the years, PC, servers, you know, other collaboration, nearly the Cloud is, you know, the latest 6and probably the most rel6evant, you know, part of your, your collaboration, but, but talk more about what that's like you guys are doing together that's, that'6s interesting and relevant. >> You know, IBM and Intel have had a very rich history of collaboration starting with the invention of the PC. So for those of us who may take a PC for granted, that was an invention over 40 years ago, between the two companies, all the way to optimizing leadership, IBM software like BB2 to run the best on Intel's data center products today, right? But what's more germane today is the Red Hat piece of the study and how that plays into a partnership with IBM going forward, Intel was one of Red Hat's earliest investors back in 1998, again, something that most people may not realize that we were in early investment with Red Hat. And we've been a longtime pioneer of open source. In fact, Levin Shenoy, Intel's Executive Vice President of Data Platforms Group was part of COBOL Commies pick up a Red Hat summit just last week, you should definitely go listen to that session, but in summary, together Intel and Red Hat have made commercial open source viable and enterprise and worldwide competing globally. Basically, now we've65 used by nearly every vertical and horizontal industr6y. We are bringing our customers choice, scalability and speed of innovation for key technologies today, such as security, Telco, NFV, and containers, or even at ease and most recently Red Hat Openshift. We're very excited to see IBM Cloud Packs, for example, standardized on top of Openshift as that builds the foundation for IBM chapter two, and allows for Intel's value to scale to the Cloud packs and ultimately IBM customers. Intel began partnering with IBM on what is now called Pax over two years ago and we 6are committed to that success and scaling that, try ecosystem, hardware partners, ISVs and our channel. >> Yeah, so theCUBE by the way, covered Red Hat summit last week, Steve Minima and I did a detailed analysis. It was awesome, like if we do say so ourselves, but awesome in the sense of, it allowed us to really sort of unpack what's going on at Red Hat and what's happening at IBM. Evaristus, so I want to come back to you on this Cloud Pack, you got, it's, it's the kind of brand that you guys have, you got Cloud Packs all over the place, you got Cloud Packs for applications, data, integration, automation, multicloud management, what do we need to know about Cloud pack? What are the relevant components there? >> Evaristus: I think the key components is so this is think of this as you know, software that is designed that is Cloud native is designed for specific core use cases and it's built on Red Hat Enterprise Linux with Red Hat Openshift container Kubernetes environment, and then on top of that, so you get a set of common services that look right across all of them and then on top of that, you've got specific both open source and IBM software that deals with specific plant situations. So if you're dealing with applications, for example, the open source and IBM software would be the run times that you need to write and, and to blow applications to have setups. If you're dealing with data, then you've got Cloud Pack to data. The foundation is still Red Hat Enterprise Linux sitting on top of with Red Hat Openshift container Kubernetes environment sitting on top of that providing you with a set of common services and then you'll get a combination of IBM zone open, so IBM software as well as open source will have third party software that sits on top of that, as well as all of our AI infrastructure that sits on top of that and machine learning, to enable you to do everything that you need to do, data to get insights updates, you've got automation to speed up and to enable us to do work more efficiently, more effectively, to make your smart workers better, to make management easier, to help management manage work and processes, and then you've got multicloud management that allows you to see from a single pane, all of your applications that you've deployed in the different Cloud, because the idea here, of course, is that not all sitting in the same Cloud. Some of it is on prem, some of it is in other Cloud, and you want to be able to see and deploy applications across all of those. And then you've got the Cloud Pack to security, which has a combination of third party offerings, as well as ISV offerings, as well as AI offerings. Again, the structure is the same, REL, Red Hat Openshift and then you've got the software that enables you to manage all aspects of security and to deal with incidents when, when they arise. So that gives you data applications and then there's integration, as every time you start writing an application, you need to integrate, you need to access data security from someplace, you need to bring two pipes together for them to communicate and we use a Cloud Pack for integration to allow us to do that. You can open up API's and expose those API so others writing application and gain access to those API's. And again, this idea of resilience, this idea of agility, so you can make changes and you can adapt data things about it. So that's what the Cloud Pack provides for you and Intel has been an absolutely fantastic partner for us. One of the things that we do with Intel, of course, is to, to work on the reference architectures to help our certification program for our hardware OEMs so that we can scale that process, get many more OEMs adopt and be ready for the Cloud Packs and then we work with them on some of the ISV partners and then right up front. >> Got it, let's talk about the edge. Kity, you mentioned 5G. I mean it's a really exciting time, (laughs) You got windmills, you got autonomous vehicles, you got factories, you got to ship, you know, shipping containers. I mean, everything's getting instrumented, data everywhere and so I'm interested in, let's start with Intel's point of view on the edge, how that's going to evolve, you know what it means to Cloud. >> You know, Dave, it's, its definitely the future and we're excited to partner with IBM here. In addition to enterprise edge, the communication service providers think of the Telcos and take advantage of running standardized open software at the Telco edge, enabling a range of new workloads via scalable services, something that, you know, didn't happen in the past, right? Earlier this year, Intel announced a new C on second generation, scalable, atom based processes targeting the 5G radio access network, so this is a new area for us, in terms of investments going to 5G ran by deploying these new technologies, with Cloud native platforms like Red Hat Openshift and IBM Cloud Packs, comm service providers can now make full use of their network investments and bring new services such as Artificial Intelligence, augmented reality, virtual reality and gaming to the market. We've only touched the surface as it comes to 5G and Telco but IBM Red Hat and Intel compute together that I would say, you know, this space is super, super interesting, as more developed with just getting started. >> Evaristus, what do you think this means for Cloud and how that will evolve? Is this sort of a new Cloud that will form at the edge? Obviously, a lot of data is going to stay at the edge, probably new architectures are going to emerge and again, to me, it's all about data, you can create more data, push more data back to the Cloud, so you can model it. Some of the data is going to have to be done in real time at the edge, but it just really extends the network to new horizons. >> Evaristus: It does exactly that, Dave and we think of it and which is why I thought it will impact the same, right? You wouldn't be surprised to see that the platform is based on open containers and that Kubernetes is container environment provided by Red Hat and so whether your data ends up living at the edge or your data lives in a private data center, or it lives in some public Cloud, and how it flows between all of them. We want to make it easy for our clients to be able to do that. So this is very exciting for us. We just announced IBM Edge Application Manager that allows you to basically deploy and manage applications at endpoints of all these devices. So we're not talking about 2030, we're talking about thousands or hundreds of thousands. And in fact, we're working with, we're getting divided Intel's device onboarding, which will enable us to use that because you can get that and you can onboard devices very, very easily at scale, which if you get that combined with IBM Edge Application Manager, then it helps you onboard the devices and it helps you divide both central devices. So we think this is really important. We see lots of work that moving on the edge devices, many of these devices and endpoints now have sufficient compute to be able to run them, but right now, if they are IoT devices, the data has been transferred to hundreds of miles away to some data center to be processed and enormous pass and then only 1% of that actually is useful, right? 99% of it gets thrown away. Some of that actually has data residency requirements, so you may not be able to move the data to process, so why wouldn't you just process the data where the data is created around your analytics where the data is spread, or you have situations that are disconnected as well. So you can't actually do that. You don't want to stop this still in the supermarket, because there's, you lost connectivity with your data center and so the importance of being able to work offline and IBM Edge Application Manager actually allows you so it's tournament so you can do all of this without using lots of people because it's a process that is all sort or automated, but you can work whether you're connected or you're disconnected, and then you get replication when you get really, really powerful for. >> All right, I think the developer model is going to be really interesting here. There's so many new use cases and applications. Of course, Intel's always had a very strong developer ecosystem. You know, IBM understands the importance of developers. Guys, we've got to wrap up, but I wonder if you could each, maybe start with Kit. Give us your sense as to where you want to see this, this partnership go, what can we expect over the next, you know, two to five years and beyond? >> I think it's just the area of, you know, 5G, and how that plays out in terms of edge build out that we just touched on. I think that's a really interesting space, what Evaristus has said is spot on, you know, the processing, and the analytics at the edge is still fairly nascent today and that's growing. So that's one area, building out the Cloud for the different enterprise applications is the other one and obviously, it's going to be a hybrid world. It's not just a public Cloud world on prem world. So the whole hybrid build out What I call hybrid to DoD zero, it's a policy and so the, the work that both of us need to do IBM and Intel will be critical to ensure that, you know, enterprise IT, it has solutions across the hybrid sector. >> Great. Evaristus, give us the last word, bring us home. >> Evaristus: And I would agree with that as well, Kit. I will say this work that you do around the Intel's market ready solutions, right, where we can bring our ecosystem together to do even more on Edge, some of these use cases, this work that we're doing around blockchain, which I think you know, again, another important piece of work and, and I think what we really need to do is to focus on helping clients because many of them are working through those early cases right now, identify use cases that work and without commitment to open standards, using exactly the same standard across like what you've got on your open retail initiative, which we're going to do, I think is going to be really important to help you out scale, but I wanted to just add one more thing, Dave, if you if you permit me. >> Yeah. >> Evaristus: In this COVID era, one of the things that we've been able to do for customers, which has been really helpful, is providing free technology for 90 days to enable them to work in an offline situation to work away from the office. One example, for example, is the just the ability to transfer files and bandwidth, new bandwidth is an issue because the parents and the kids are all working from home, we have a protocol, IBM Aspera, which will make available customers for 90 days at no cost. You don't need to give us your credit card, just log on and use it to improve the way that you work. So your bandwidth feels as if you are in the office. We have what's an assistant that is now helping clients in more than 18 countries that keep the same thing, basically providing COVID information. So those are all available. There's a slew of offerings that we have. We just want listeners to know that they can go on the IBM website and they can gain those offerings they can deploy and use them now. >> That's huge. I knew about the 90 day program, I didn't realize a sparrow was part of that and that's really important because you're like, Okay, how am I going to get this file there? And so thank you for, for sharing that and guys, great conversation. You know, hopefully next year, we could be face to face even if we still have to be socially distant, but it was really a pleasure having you on. Thanks so much. Stay safe, and good stuff. I appreciate it. >> Evaristus: Thank you very much, Dave. Thank you, Kit. Thank you. >> Thank you, thank you. >> All right, and thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Volante for theCUBE, our wall to wall coverage of the IBM Think 2020 Digital Event Experience. We'll be right back right after this short break. (upbeat music)

[Music] from the cube studios in Palo Alto in Boston it's the cube covering the IBM thing brought to you by IBM hi everybody this is David Lally you're watching the cube and our multi day coverage of the IBM think Digital 20/20 experience the event experienced wall-to-wall coverage prasad saccharine is here he's the senior managing director at Accenture technology great to see you thanks for coming on for Sun and thank you for having me there pleasure to be on very welcome so um I'm looking at your bio here you're responsible for the relationship with with IBM Red Hat so I'm interested in that and you're driving the Accenture intelligent cloud and engineering practice so we got a lot to talk about here let's start with Red Hat obviously it's probably the most important in at least new part of IBM so here you're in the right spot what's going on with with with Red Hat these days in your practice there oh yeah so you know Red Hat is a extremely important part of our practice I am very much focused on what Accenture does within the hybrid cloud space for our clients and red hat with OpenShift is you know the most powerful platform that there is out there today in helping our clients both innovate in the new as they expand in what they're doing digitally as well as move and modernize some of the equipment they have you know from existing history you know I went when the Red Hat deal was completed I did a little braking analysis my sort of weekly editorial segment and I said you know this this Red Hat acquisition openshift is the linchpin and I went right there right we just went it was all about application modernization and hybrid cloud bringing that cloud experience to on-prem or cross clouds and so that it was always my take you know there was a lot of sort of marketing around cloud generally but but more specifically it's a to me it was always about that application modernization so I'm curious as to how your your clients have responded to that and you know whether or not I'm sort of on the right track there yeah I think there are multiple factors I mean if you look at just broadly the areas I think there are three areas the first as you correctly said there is application modernization so our clients are looking at the amount of technical debt that they have and their legacy systems they're looking to you know modernize the right parts of their legacy estate you know one looking at the trade-off around the costs as well as the performance so Red Hat and open ship really gives them the platform that allows them to do that and make take their journey forward from an app mod perspective onto the clouds and you know the various public clouds the second area is actually in greenfield development so as clients are building new applications they want to be able to you know build applications that they can run across you know multiple platforms whether it's private cloud or public cloud and particularly in areas like Europe I think this is particularly significant and we can talk about that in some more detail and then the third area which is emerging as you know is is the whole area of edge and IOT which is going to actually move a lot of the computer way from the central clouds into the into the edge and you know obviously open ship is going to play a big part there as well bringing all all the three parts of the enterprise as it were you know the edge and the cloud as well as all of the legacy and private estates that exist today so to talk more about Europe what's going on there is that a GDP or a related thing a country you know in country may keep the data in country what is the issue there yeah it's a little bit of board I you know if you look at particularly financial services but certainly other industries as well the regulator's are extremely focused on making sure that you know the right balance is being struck even if you're using public clouds you know they are going to talk about the amount of public cloud usage that can be for every application the various applications that have to be actually running on a private cloud estate so in a scenario like that you will really want to be able to build applications that you can run across you know multiple different platforms and you know open ship gives you the answer to be able to do that to be able to you know have a policy based approach where you know certain workloads can be working on your private cloud and certainly you can move it out to you know public cloud when the need arises result explain the edge angle is that about bringing a programmability or the cloud model to the data at the edge you can explain that more detail sure sure and you know the edge and IOT and the Internet of Things impacts different industries differently you know I can talk about you know since we mentioned financial services let me bring up insurance for example you look at autonomous you know cars and you know self driven vehicles and so on as their going to change daily life what happens in those cases is that you want a lot of that data to be processed at the vehicle level so at the edge rather than a lot of processing happening across the network you know up at the central crowd and then coming back down to the vehicle because the latency just doesn't allow these these sorts of applications to happen you look at multiple industries that are really being impacted by the edge and so as that starts to become more prevalent and about 50 to 60 percent of a lot of this compute moves off of the central cloud through various education what you really want to have is like the versions of these platforms running on those particular devices and the rest of it running either on your private or your central clouds so you have to be able to use and move a lot of these applications which are container base you know platform you know Ginni Rometty now arvind talked about how the only 20% of the workloads have moved to the cloud it's they're really difficult to move workloads that are sort of the next next wave how do you see that evolving from Accenture perspective I think I think you have I mean you get your technology agnostic right I mean you really you know you're not a purveyor of hardware or software and so how do you see as a kind of a quasi-independent here how do you see that that hybrid cloud that cloud journey playing out yeah I think you know the we have the same number by the way I mean we see about when we talk to our clients and we've surveyed several CEOs and CIOs the number we we arrive at is that about 20 percent I think of workloads having moved to the cloud now a lot of that has been SAS based you know they've taken a lot of functions that could really be satified so to speak now comes the part around really taking portions of your legacy estate that you need to move to the cloud whether you're going to do it as a pass or an i as you know doesn't really matter and then you know weave into that the requirements around data privacy around compliance around high performance etc which might either take you to a private cloud type of orientation or take it to various public clouds so there's a lot of that work be done so what we are doing with many of our clients is really working with them taking a lot of our tools we have a tool that that we use called my nav which allows you to really assess a client's legacy estate and figure out you know what part of it that really we should be modernizing and which of the partners brilliant that we need to be working with to be able to modernize that aspect in concurrence with that is all of the new development that's happening on the cloud native development which is naturally glowing going into you know a lot of these public as well as private cloud so a lot of that work the next you know let's say 30 to 40 percent over the next few years is going to be a lot of work that happens and that's going to be heavier lifting as compared to you know the initial 20% that is half of it well heavy heavy lifting is kind of your area of expertise and we think about Accenture deep industry expertise global presence I mean as does IBM empiricist essaouira your relationship with IBM what what's the partnership like maybe you could describe sort of where you guys complement each other I know you compete in certain segments but where do you complement each other you know like you pointed out earlier Dave you know we are we're very much technology agnostic we have been on a public cloud journey for the last several years and really built our skills and our you know support around that what the hyper scale is we're doing in the market as hybrid cloud has evolved over the last you know couple of years especially we see that open shift and Red Hat and IBM you know play a big part in you know in this part of the journey as well as IBM public cloud we see you know the use of IBM public cloud continue to increase in the market so all of these you know companies I think play a very important role in what our clients want to do to take their journeys to the cloud forward so you know we're trying to piece all of that together to to have the right you know solutions to our clients and really brings together I think the aspects one is you know country specific requirements the second is the specific industry that you're talking about and you know the third is technology so really it's a it's an intersection of region technology as well as industry it's something that you know we're naturally good at we have several clients where we do a lot of you know a lot we have deep existing relationships and we certainly partner with IBM very closely we are the largest system integrator of all of IBM software products globally outside of IBM themselves and we've been that maintaining that status for many years we've been doing the same on the Red Hat side so as IBM and Red Hat come together I think at many of our clients we're a very natural consultant and systems integrator for or IBM rather we haven't talked much about multi-cloud this week I know Stu minimun my colleague has been hosting the Red Hat summit and it talked a lot about it but again I want to tap you're sort of you know that you're agnostic brain you look at the landscape and you've got different suppliers coming at it from different angles right AWS won't use the term via Microsoft obviously has a good story there you know Google with anthos etc VMware wants its piece of the pie iBM is kind of to me one of the most interesting with red hat of course because not only does it have its own cloud but it's very aggressive around supporting multiple clouds it's it it seems to be you know intent on doing whatever the client wants clearly that's your business I wonder what you can share with us about your thoughts on on multi cloud specifically yeah absolutely I think you know multi cloud is certainly where a lot of our clients are at and they've started the multi cloud journey you know you know a few years ago they have gone with more than you know maybe one hyper scaler although they have had you know just few workloads perhaps in in in multiple of them and really focused on one of them but as they start increasing the percentage of work that they're doing within the within the clouds they start looking at a lot of these clouds for very specific reason and most of our clients end up using food with P public clouds and when I look at the public cloud certainly you mentioned all of them AWS Microsoft Azure Google you know to the GCP product as well as you know IBM with IBM's public cloud and then with OpenShift really being able to run across all of these public clouds allow you allows you to actually design you know micro services based applications that are containerized and you can you know pretty much run them across whichever cloud you want and this is where we really you know work with our clients to really understand their need and to help them with you know the specific clouds that we won't be working with and which applications really should reside where makes sense for them and like I said from a Europe perspective you know with gdpr etc I think that journey is a little bit you know further advanced than it is perhaps in other places other parts of the world but we're seeing you know much more use of multi-cloud in addition to of course sass and increase user way Superdog your role is global obviously not just yes not just us right pan-pan the world or is it US and Europe no it is its global so it's us Europe as well as what we call the growth market so it includes China then is that correct or yes yeah so okay so now you got Alibaba you know you're playing there that's yet another cloud and so and what your one of the roles that you play as a systems integrator and somebody who's you know trying to trust it is you help customers pick the right workload for the right you know infrastructure and make it work obviously and help them de-risk one of the things we've noted is you know going back to the 80/20 or 20 has moved 80 hasn't it's the hard stuff it's that a lot of that mission-critical stuff hasn't moved in mate may never move but some of it will it just seems to us that you know moving the mission critical workloads is very risky and so what you want to do is make sure that you D risk that maybe keep it on you know if it's an IBM mission-critical workload maybe IBM's got ways to keep it safe in the IBM cloud and you know cross connect them etc I wonder what your thoughts are on moving what has heretofore been hard to move workloads does it make sense to put them in the cloud or does it make sense to put a brick wall around them and leave them on Prem I know it depends but but but maybe you could frame that for us sure absolutely so we have you know a concept that we call digital decoupling and what that really entails is is to take a look at these monolithic applications that are running you know on the back end and then we look at certain speech ER extraction that you know you can you can perform take those features out especially things that will give you access to digital channels you know rewrite those applications containerize them and then be able to run them on on multiple clouds and we've been doing that with you know many clients for example you know large hotel chains where we've taken a lot of that functionality containerized it run it on public clouds and it's only the final commit after you go through the process of figuring out you know what kind of room do you want picking out the various features it's not till the final commit that that happens on the mainframe side so feature extraction through digital decoupling I think offers you tremendous offloading of a lot of those features as well as processing onto the public cloud certainly iBM is also looking at many in many ways in which they can move some of these core functions as well on to their public cloud so I think the journey continues like you said you know it may not be ever that you have a hundred percent of the processing that happens on the public cloud and again we have to take a look at the amount of work that there is the risk reward the cost that it will take and you know with the enormous amount of functionality that has to take place this is where we have to advise our clients on you know the journey as well as the order in which via TP for the landscape we talked earlier about edge you're talking about multiple clouds you've got on-prem you've got mission critical workloads and you mentioned you know containers people want portability of course containers are necessary ingredient of that portability but it's insufficient and so you just see complexity increasing as we as we proceed down this cloud journey you've got to secure those those those those containers and and micro services sometimes aren't so micro you've you've got to make them work across cloud so it seems to me that you guys and your your clients get a lot of work to do which is which is a good thing as long as they make the business case and it's adding value to the organization yeah absolutely and then this is where you know you take certain functions I think you have a lot of sass options particularly around certain things that you're doing that tend to be you know commoditized so to speak certain other functions where you don't need perhaps their elasticity either about offers so you can have you know past solutions that you can build more quickly but then you want other solutions that need to be more mission-critical more resilient and in certainly movement elastic and that's where you know you look at you know producing micro-services containerized applications that you can really burst across you know multiple clouds and so on so these are all part of the architectures that we're building designing and implementing a wrapper Versailles where can I go to get more info on this whole topic from you know a hybrid cloud perspective as well as a public cloud perspective we go to Accenture comm and you do go to the cloud section there's a lot of information as well as credentials and white papers that you'd be able to access and also gives you access to specific people that you can you know reach out to and contact and get for the information on what they've been able to do very interesting conversation prasad and it's great to see you guys working very closely with with IBM i love it two global companies deep industry expertise solving hard problems so thanks so much for coming with you Naruto thank you so much for doing this very welcome and thank you for watching everybody this is Dave Volante and it's a wall-to-wall coverage of the IBM digital event experience around think 2020 we're right back right at this short break you're watching the Hume [Music] you