>> Woman's Voice: From the CUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE conversation. >> Hey, welcome back already. Jeff Rick here, with theCUBE. We're having Palo Alto studios, during these kind of crazy times and really taking a moment with the time that we have to reach out to some of the leaders in our community, to give us some insight, to give us some advice, to share their knowledge about some of the things that are going on and some of the specific challenges that really the coronavirus and the COVID 19 situation are causing for all of us. So, we're really excited to have a CUBE alumni, haven't talked to him for a couple of years. Joining us from his house, he's Marten Mickos, the CEO of Hacker One. Marten, great to see you. >> Good to see you, Jeff. Good to be back. Thank you. >> So first off, just a quick check in. How are you doing? How things going at Hacker One? How's the team doing? How are you guys kind of getting through this time of difficulty? >> Well, we are fortunate in our company that we have a business that may be doing even better in these times, because we do security don't need to go into the office and we do it in a distributed way. And so, all of that is wonderful for the company. We do have our first positive case of COVID 19 in the company. He is now fully recovered after a few weeks. He's back at work. So, it means it came pretty close to us and we have others who might be in the danger zone. But overall, we are doing very well and paying a lot of attention on health and staying safe and working from home and making sure we don't take risk because these are serious things that we shouldn't play with. >> Yes. Well, I'm glad to hear that, that person is recovering. And I think April is the month of six degrees of separation where all of us are going to know someone or someone who knows someone who's got this thing, is it? The curves, unfortunately, are still going up in the United States. So, I don't think that's going to change. But, on a lighter note, one of the reasons I wanted to reach out to you is you've got a long history of working with distributed companies. This COVID thing is kind of a forcing function around work from home and it never fails to amaze me how many people are on their first Zoom, and they don't even know what WebEx is, and they've never heard of Skype. And I think we get spoiled in the tech world. We use these tools all the time. But this is a forcing function. It's at the grade schools, the middle schools, the high schools, besides just regular companies. So, when you were running MySQL, back in the day, you had a distributed company, not only across buildings, but across oceans and continents. So, I wonder if you can share kind of, did that start that way? Did you move into that way? Kind of what are some of the early days as you move from everybody in the office to more of a distributed network? >> Yeah, it did start that way at MySQL back in Scandinavia. And I joined. There were 12 people, everybody working from home. The CTO lived just half an hour away from me, but we never saw each other. I worked from home, he worked from home. And I remember when I as the new CEO said that, hey, we will need an office. We need a headquarters where we can have meetings and archives or contracts and stuff. And he said, no office, over my dead body. It will kill the company culture. That was the view >> Why! >> Of the founder. >> That is so progressive. Where did that view come from, Cause that is certainly was not the kind of standard thinking. >> It was weird. It was back in, that was the year 2000, and they had developed a way of working with open source contributors all over the world, over email and IRC back then, which is a predecessor to slack you could say. And they just developed that method of working together and making sure everything is digital, everything is written down. You are honest and forthright in writing as well. So it worked beautifully and they didn't like offices. We ended up having offices and we had many people working from the office but there was nowhere, at no time was it more than 30% of our headcount of about 500 people who work from an office. 70% work from home in 32 different countries across 16 time zones. >> Wow, that's very, very distributed. So, in getting ready for this, I saw some other interviews that you've done and some other conversations on the topic. And one of the things that you brought up that I think is really topical is that this is really more of a mental challenge than really a physical challenge. The tools are there, we have internet, we're very fortunate that way. Didn't have these things in 2000, like we do today. But you talked about the mental challenge, both from a leadership perspective, as well as maybe from the employee perspective. I wonder if you can dig into that a little deeper as you kind of look at your peers that are treading into unchartered waters, if you will. >> Well, I think it's a transition where you become one with the media, like with your laptop or whatever you're looking at and you sort of you invest yourself in what you have in front of you and you give off all of yourself into it. Just like, if somebody is taking a portrait of you with a camera, you have to sort of love the camera and show yourself to the camera for the portrait to be really, really good. Like that's what great photographers do. They get you to open up, even though it's a machine and not another human being. And we have to develop this skill digitally to sit in front of a laptop or a phone or something, and be our whole genuine selves, showing all dimensions and aspects of our personality. Because we don't realize it but when you go to an office, people are paying attention to how you walk, where you stop, what you look like, whether you look angry or happy, whether you look tired or not, when you go to the restroom, when you don't, like who knows all these things that people pay attention to that give away how you feel and how you are. And then somebody may come and say, Hey, Jeff seems to be in a bad mood today or Jeff seems to be in a good mood today. And those are vital functions of a group that works together. So, you must allow the digital world to have the same. You have to bring that part of yourself into the digital reality and sort of open up. And people make the mistake that they just bring their professional selves. They just say, okay, what's the task? What's the work? Let's agree on something, let's listen to everybody. And they don't reserve room for the social side and showing who you are. Because people won't ultimately trust you until they know that you are a human being and you have weaknesses and vulnerabilities and you can be silly and sometimes you look good, and sometimes you don't look good, and sometimes you are to your advantage, and sometimes you aren't. And until you have covered the whole range of your own expressions, you're not believable. >> Yeah. Another topic that came up is measurement, right? In KPIs, and how do you measure people's performance? It wasn't that long ago that Ginni Rometty at IBM came out and said, we don't want remote workers anymore. We want everybody to come check into the office. Well, that's changed a little bit. But, you mentioned that, we're so used to measuring things the way that we've always measured in the past. Are they there at eight? Do they stay till five or six? Do they look busy, as opposed to really focusing on outputs? And you talked about really shifting your mindset with a distributed workforce to make sure you're focusing on the right outcomes, not necessarily focusing on the things that maybe, as you said, as much as subconsciously, you're paying attention to as much as anything. >> It's so easy to fake it in an office. >> I love that. >> You go in there, you look busy and people think you're amazing. But when you work from home, the only thing you have to show for is your work results. So, it becomes much more objective. And of course, you have to create metrics that can be tracked in a way that others can understand what you're doing. But it actually makes it more straightforward because you can't fake it. >> Right. >> The only thing you can be measured by is what you're actually producing. >> It's got to be interesting when we come out of this, right? Cause there's a lot of psychology done around habits and how things become habits. And the way things become habits is you do them for a while, in sequence repeatedly and then that becomes kind of part of your routine. And before, even here at theCUBE, right? Remote interviews were probably, I don't know, 5% of our total output. And now they're going to be 100% for the foreseeable future. So, as you look at kind of people that are new to this, world of remote learning and remote working, it's going to be wild after they do this for a couple weeks hopefully get into the habit, to then, as you said in some prior things, this becomes the new normal and go into the office is the once every so often, when we actually have to have a big team meeting or some specific events. So you think this is going to probably be that tipping point till this becomes the new normal. >> I do think so. I think it will flip so that now, you may think that you and I are having a virtual conversation and it would be a real conversation, if we were in the same room. That will flip. Soon, this will be the real conversation. And if we meet in person, then it's an anomaly, and that's the virtual thing. >> Right. >> Because most of the time, we will connect like this and we will figure out ways to understand each other and know whether we can trust each other and sort of all these things will evolve on the digital side. And there's no reason why they wouldn't. >> Right. >> Other than the reluctance of human beings to change their behavior. >> Inertia is a powerful thing. So let's say >> As they say that, first we form habits, then habits form us. >> There you go. >> And that's how it happens. You create some habit and then you become prisoner of that habit. If you create that and you can't get rid of it. But you just have to force yourself out of it. >> Right, and this is a forcing function, like none other in terms of this whole world. >> Exactly. >> So, shifting gears a little bit to kind of your day job, beyond just leading but actually worrying about security. RSA was the last big show we went to, late January, early February. All about security, Hacker One's all about security. I would imagine now that everybody's working from home and the pressure on bringing your own devices and we're seeing all this funny stuff about Zoom. It's the greatest thing since sliced bread. And now of course everybody's jumping on all of the vulnerabilities, etc. What are you seeing in kind of the hacker world and security world as this huge shift has moved to people working from home and remote schools, etc. >> Well, it's clear that society now has to work from home and figure out distributed ways of getting education or work done. And as a result, criminality will go there as well. So we have to protect ourselves well. The first of the problems is, how do you protect yourself when you work from home? So then you talk about VPNs and how do you handle credentials and authentication and multi factor authentication to make sure that the connection is authentic and protected. So, that's the first one. The first order challenge that we have right now going on. But on a little bit longer scale, we are seeing now companies deciding to start using cloud services even more than before, because they realize that this could come back as evasion like, we are having now, could come back and you will again be at home. And then they say, how do we build our software and ICT infrastructure, such that we are not needed in the office? And the answer is move to the cloud. And when you move to the cloud, you again, the security posture changes somewhat. You don't have to worry about network security anymore, but you do have to worry much more about app sec, application security. So, whatever happens here, they are useful transitions, but they will put demands on security teams and business leaders to re-evaluate what they spend money on in security. We are very fortunate at Hacker One to be on the winning side here. Our services are exactly for this distributed virtual digital world. So, we are needed even more every day more and more because things are going online. But companies will need to rethink those things and stop spending on things that don't make sense anymore. >> Yeah. It is just wild, right? How this forcing function is really making everybody evaluate things a little bit closer and pushing them through that inertia that before you could kind of put it off, put it off, put it off. You can't put it off anymore. Time's now. >> Right. >> Yeah. >> Well, we had a similar like when Y2K happened. We also had a hard limit, and we had to get stuff done. Now it's coming in a different way, sort of the punishment came without announcement, but we are in a similar crunch to get it done. And we will. >> Yeah. But, it will be difficult and it will put a lot of strain to people under the systems. But I do believe it's doable. >> Good. So, I want to shift gears one last time. We talked really about open source. >> Right. >> You've built your career on open source. My SQL was obviously open source and got bought by Sun eventually now, part of Oracle's portfolio then you did Eucalyptus. That was open source, right? Eventually got bought by hp. And now Hacker One, you're using really a network of hackers all over the world, to really help deliver the service. I'm just curious to get your take on the role of open source. It's been such a creative force for development. It's been such a creative force for kind of moving technology forward. How do you see it playing out now? What's the role of open source? Are you seeing projects? Are you seeing people rallying around, bringing the power of data and analytics and cloud to this problem? Cause to me, there's clearly a human toll of people being sick. But it's also a big data problem in terms of resource allocation, trying to sequence this thing and accelerate vaccine development. There's a lot of kind of big data, opportunities here to attack this thing. >> I think open source is even bigger now than it used to be. And it is a very powerful example of the fact that no matter how much we are threatened that we feel like we have to hunker down and isolate ourselves from others and foreign groups or people are dangerous. In reality, the biggest accomplishments in society are always about collaboration by large groups of really intelligent driven people. Because software is eating the world, open source is eating the world. And today, if you don't use open source software, you're just plain stupid. So, it has really taken over the whole world. And it is now enabling all these new innovations and initiatives that we didn't do before in big data, collecting big data, analyzing data. We see it in the whole area of DNA medicine, where the researchers are sharing their findings with everybody. And that's very much like open source software. They don't call it open source software, but the mechanisms are the same. Everybody is doing it for their own good, but by sharing it, they multiply the value of what they did, and it speeds up innovation, so that it outperforms anything done in a closed laboratory or a closed source company. So it's wonderful to have been part of the open source revolution because it is spawning so many other initiatives and phenomena on a societal level. And this is just the beginning. It will go into politics, it will go into news, it will go into the assessment of fake news. Reddit is completely self moderate. They don't hire the moderators. The moderators are provided by the community and they self moderate. And understanding how to self govern, self moderate, at very large scale. That's the key to success in many areas. So, open source software is enormous and yet, it's just one little part of the whole world of community driven innovation. >> Right. Such a great lesson though, because, as we think back to kind of the last kind of national rally around say, World War Two, where Kaiser started building ships, and Ford was building airplanes. And we've got some of that going on with with Elon Musk, and people building respirators and some of these physical things, but there's this whole kind of software and big data, AI, machine learning thing that's happening on the background, around the genome and in the vaccine development that's not quite as visible, but really such an important part of this battle that we haven't seen. And then, of course, the other place is no place to hide. The fact that this is happening all over the globe, at the same time to everyone, regardless of your religion, your politics, your geography. It's really a unique moment in time. Hopefully one that we're not going to... >> It could be our best hope against Coronavirus. The fact that the scientists are right now working together and sharing their findings, quickly going from one test to the next and figuring out what works. And mankind hasn't had that capacity before. But now we do. So, we can't know whether it will take a long time or a short time, but at least we are getting all the resources to bear and we put them together and people share. >> Right. >> Which is what's driving the innovation here. >> Right, Martin. I guess, just a last kind of topic before I let you go, kind of circling fully back to leadership. One of the comments you talked about, about these types of times really favoring the bold. I really liked that line that is, don't be scared. It's really an opportunity for the people who have it together and are making the right priorities, to shine and to really kind of rise above the fray. I wonder if you can share a little bit more your thoughts about that from a leadership point of view. It's a time of challenge, but it's really also a time of opportunity. >> I think it's exactly like you said. It's like the Stockdale paradox. Admiral Stockdale who was a prisoner of war, over seven years, and was tortured during those years. Every day, he decided to, on one hand, be ready to face any brutal reality he might face, but on the other hand, never give up hope that one day, he will come out and have no regrets, not looking back and be a free man again. And that's exactly what happened. Of course, we are not in as dire situation as he was, but society has a similar situation. That we must have the courage to face the exact brutality of and the reality of coronavirus right now, without thinking that we won't come out of it. We will absolutely come out of it. And we will come out of it with innovations and new models that will outshine whatever we had before. And we must be able to maintain this duality of, okay, I'm ready to face the reality and I'm ready to be in isolation, I'm ready to use a face mask, whatever it takes. But also, I will never give up hope about what will come once we come out of this. And with that mindset, as a company, as a family, an individual human being or a society, you can get through any problem. And this is what Admiral Stockdale taught us through his experience, and by sharing it with everybody. >> Well, Marten. Thank you for sharing that story, and thank you for sharing your experience and kind of your point of view. We really appreciate it. These are tough times and it's great to be able to look out to the leaders and to kind of share the burden, if you will, and hear from smart folks that have a point of view. So, thank you very much for your time. Best to your employee. Glad that person is recovering. And as you said, we will get through this and we'll come out stronger the other side. Thanks a lot. >> Absolutely. Thank you, Jeff. Good chatting with you. >> All right, thanks Marten. Jeff Rick here, signing off from the Palo Alto studios from the CUBE. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time. (soft music) (soft music)

>> Voiceover: Live, from Atlanta, Georgia, it's theCUBE. Covering IFS World Conference 2018. Brought to you by, IFS. >> Rebecca: Welcome back to theCUBE's live coverage of IFS World Conference 2018 here in Atlanta, Georgia. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight, along with my co-host, Jeff Frick. It's been a great day here. >> Jeff: Yes. >> We've had a lot of wonderful conversations, great panels. Last one to go, you can tell the atmosphere is getting... >> They're wheeling out all the alcohol I think... >> Exactly. Exactly. >> ...for the reception this evening. >> But we have saved best for last. We have Dan Matthews, who is the CTO of IFS and Bas De Vos who is the Director of IFS Labs. So Bas and Dan, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you. >> You're welcome. >> So, when I talked, we've heard a lot about IFS Apps 10, and this is the big news, but what we haven't talked about too much is Arena. Can you describe to our viewers this new user experience, and what it means? >> Alright, well, IFS Arena, like you said, it's a new user experience via past applications, and that's something that's really important to us because it's important to our customers. Because what they want to do is, they want to put great tools in the hands of the people, right? And we all know when it comes to software, how great a tool is is a large part down to the user experience, so that's why we've done it. And what we've done is create something that we think is more inspired by really well-designed consumer software, but we've adapted that for these big enterprise applications like we are doing. >> It's pretty amazing in your keynote because you showed, I think five different UI's based on different devices in the prior versions, where now you're coming to kind of a standardized single (mumbles) experience across various platforms or across various devices to actually interact with the applications. That's got to be, feel good to get that down to kind of one responsive design. >> And to a degree, that's just rescinding to reality because you used to think about, you had your PC and you had a way of doing that. And then you go to your mobile app, or maybe, I mean, people are using so many different kinds devices today. So if we were to purpose build something just for your iPad, something for your phone, something for this, something for your TV, we'd be stuck forever, right? So what we did instead, is we said, "Let's build one experience that actually adapts "to all these different environments, "and get that really, really well." It's not that easy, but in the end, it's a much better way of approaching it. >> Right, and I thought the part that I liked was as when you're new to something, you don't necessarily want a high density of information in a screen or whatever, 'cause you're just not sure, you're learning, whatever, it's new. But then as you become more experienced, obviously your comfort zone goes up, you want a lot more dense information, and really, in your work platform you demoed earlier today, you have a lot of options whether you want kind of the more consumery, more picturey, less efficient way, or do you want the "I know this well, "and I want the thick content." >> And what we basically does, we flipped it upside down, 'cause if you look at Enterprise Software, and ERP, and has to management this kind of stuff, it always used to be designed for the professional, right? And then you would try to simplify it for the newbies that're coming into the business. Can we remove some things, hide some things away, configure some things? Now we've done it the other way around. So the default is it's designed for the novice person that's just coming in seeing this for the first time. And then as you learn, as you say, you can expand and grow, and they get sort of more rich in the data you're seeing. And this is really, really important right? Because people aren't staying that long in the jobs anymore. So if you think about people moving around, they know the business, but they might not know the business applications, so they basically come in, I'm a purchasing guy, come in, pick up the purchasing system directly, that's really really important. >> Needs to be intuitive? >> Yeah, make it intuitive first, and then progressively let people discover more, rather than give all the options and all the complexity and then expect them to simplify it. That's harder. >> So, Bas, I want to talk to you a little bit about the development process and how you come up with these kind of things. Can you describe how it works at IFS Labs, what approach you take? >> Yeah of course, and then perhaps Dan can add to this a little bit later as well. But because IFS Labs is just a part of the process, right? But if you look in our general development process, for us, it's very important to stay close to our customers, right? What do our customers need today? What do they need tomorrow? And we have to basically be able to deliver functionality they need for their problems right on time. And IFS Labs plays a part in that. We are basically (mumbles) for sending before that. So we approach it a little bit the other way around. So instead of looking at a customer problem and trying to find a solution for that, we basically look ahead. We look a couple of years in the future. What kind of technologies are coming up? What kind of possibilities are there, and can we find a problem for it? And that sounds strange, right? Because we're known in the business of finding problems. But it does allow us to experiment and come up with innovative solutions that might work for tomorrow. But before we actually move that into production, or hand it over to regular R&D development, well we do step back and go to our customers and say, "Hey wait a minute, this is what we are thinking Labs, "what do you think about that? "Does it work for you, does it help you?" and validate it with them. >> So it's an interesting challenge for Labs, for looking down the road, because, and Steve Jobs' famous quote, that we don't necessarily deliver just what our customers ask for. They're not asking for things that are down the road, so you got that responsibility to look down the road. On the other hand, nobody likes technology that doesn't have a problem to solve. So you got to be delicate. Because if you just build something for the sake of building something, maybe there's some ancillary value. But at the end of the day, someone's got to use it and they got to drive direct values. So how do you kind of play that balance beyond, "Yes we listen to customers, "but there's this other stuff coming "that maybe they're not too aware of"? >> Yeah that's true, totally true, I completely agree with you. And I think that is the role of IFS Labs, right? So if we look in the overall process, the fact that we have a Labs, we don't... A license to experiment with trying out stuff, validating it with our customers, we can basically... Try it out before we actually take a decision to build something that our customers are not waiting for. So exactly the problem you just sketched, I think that our interest, IFS Labs, to resolve that. >> We have seen this happening throughout history, right? So if you look at how IET started, for us, it started with a product in IFS labs, when together we want a customer learning and understanding how they should be applied to the kind of businesses and industries that we serve. And then it went into mainstream R&D development and then we have real solutions, and now we have customers, who've been live for years, using this kind of stuff. So that is exactly the process you want to have. Try it out, and when we have a grasp on how this relates to our customers, then we up the next level of investment and take it further. >> And then, similarly, we had a project in IFS Labs that, well we tried out, and after a couple of months or even longer we said, "This is not going to work "for our customers, it's actually not helping them today. "Might be a couple years from now, but today let's stop it." >> So was this how your kind of integration of AI and machine learning into the applications took place? You looked forward, this is a cool new thing we need to play, but at the same time, we're not going to name it after a smart dead guy. (group laughing) But really bake it into the applications where it makes the most sense. And that sounds like it's kind of your execution strategy. >> Yeah definitely and AIs are a very, very, very big topic, right? It's an umbrella for so many different types of applications. Dan was talking this morning about three main areas where we think AI makes most sense for our products. It's basically human-machine interaction, predictive maintenance and service, an automation. But each of those areas, they basically have their own... Own life cycle, right? So if you look at human-machine interaction, at the morning. This morning we were talking about the IFS Arena bot. We're actually in a proper development phase. So that's much further ahead in that cycle, while other AI related topics like doing mass-automation, only your (mumbles), that's earlier in the cycle and that's still in Labs. So although AI is a big umbrella topic, the different topics in there follow that same approach. >> Can you be a little more specific about the projects you're working on, or is it top secret? >> At the World Conference everybody wants to know our secrets, but luckily, at World Conference we share them. >> Jeff: This is between us four. >> Yeah nobody's listening, right? Or watching? (laughs) So yeah at this World Conference we're hosting an innovation area. And in the innovation area, we're showcasing a wide range of basically possible technologies and how you could apply them to future business. We basically took the approach of depicting an end-to-end automatous business. So basically go all the way from mining stuff, in a mine in the ground, to using that in a factory, to producing products for the customer. And we basically build all kinds of technologies in there to make that completely automatous. Might not all be possible today, but it's really there to inspire our customers to look ahead. Some examples of the things we're using, a block chain inside enterprisesque management, mixed reality with Microsoft HoloLens to do service repairs, digital twins in virtual reality, automatous vehicles. So there's a lot of interesting stuff going on there. >> That's great, those are the great buzzwords but you put them all within application, and they're just standalone. >> Dan: What it does really well, is it kind of illustrates how these technologies are used in context... >> Right. >> Dan: With all of these things. >> That's super. >> You are an IFS veteran, >> Yes. >> You came as a developer and now here you are, CTO. Tell our viewers a little bit about how the company has changed in your opinion, and also now as you are sort of making a bigger push into North America, what we can expect. >> Well, what else changed, if I go back and I've not been with this company for more than 20 years. But what I've seen is we've got a lot more professional. Of course, we're a big organization now, and the way we run things and the way the business is run is a lot more professional. If you go back to the late '90s, this was before the dot-com boom, everybody was pouring money into the IT industry, so that was not an objective. So we were doing R&D but we were also burning money. And I think after that bubble burst, we all learned to become proper business people as well. I'll tell you one that hasn't changed, though, and that really is the kind of atmosphere that is within the company, right? How close we are to our customers, and how the customers reality always comes first and how we all help each other support. That really hasn't changed despite the fact we're so much bigger and we're 20 years old and all that kind of stuff. >> So why do you think is it 'cause maintaining culture is really, really difficult and we go to a lot of shows and we often talk about if it's a founder-led, and if they're a good CEO to double benefit, to keep that culture, but when you got turned over at the top, how do you maintain the culture that you guys have built? >> I think in the beginning, I think it was a lot of that founder-led, right? It was really led by the founders and one of the founders was our CEO for many, many years. But then it kind of got ingrained a little bit, between the Scandinavia culture. That it's quite open, quite sort of friendly, helpful, lots of hierarchical. And that then sort of spread out as the business expanded into nationally. And we kept it also on the R&D side. We do a lot of R&D in Chalinka for example. Which has a surprisingly similar feeling in the culture, actually. So I think it just got so big and so strong in the company, that it just naturally, new people come in and naturally sort of carry on with that same way of being that we've had it before. >> Rebecca: They adopted and embraced it. >> Because that was the end, Dan said when he was doing his due diligence, right? The culture was a huge piece of why he came to the company. >> I think if they were the other way around, we have seen that when we brought businesses in as well, that is, right, these guys have a similar culture to us, great, fantastic business to bring into to the IFS family. >> Jeff: Sir, you were going to say? >> I was going to say, in the end also, you're attracting people to your company and the people that are staying are also the people that feel at at home, and that feel comfortable, and that feel, I'm a little bit shorter than Dan inside the company for two years now. But basically, I feel the same with the culture, right? And it fits me as a person, and therefore I think I'm inclined to stay longer at IFS than if the culture would not fit me. And as you attract people with the same mindset together. It only gets stronger. >> Right, well Dan and Bas, thank you so much. This has been really fun last panel of the day, so we appreciate it. >> Thank you. >> Good luck on your keynote on Thursday. >> Bas: Thank you very much. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for Jeff Frick. This has been IFS World Conference 2018. We will have more after this. (light techno music)