>>Prior to the pandemic, organizations were largely optimized for efficiency as the best path to bottom line profits. Many CIOs tell the cube privately that they were caught off guard by the degree to which their businesses required greater resiliency beyond their somewhat cumbersome disaster recovery processes. And the lack of that business resilience has actually cost firms because they were unable to respond to changing market forces. And certainly we've seen this dynamic with supply chain challenges and there's a little doubt. We're also seeing it in the area of cybersecurity generally, and data recovery. Specifically. Over the past 30 plus months, the rapid adoption of cloud to support remote workers and build in business resilience had the unintended consequences of expanding attack vectors, which brought an escalation of risk from cybercrime. Well, security in the public clouds is certainly world class. The result of multi-cloud has brought with it multiple shared responsibility models, multiple ways of implementing security policies across clouds and on-prem. >>And at the end of the day, more, not less complexity, but there's a positive side to this story. The good news is that public policy industry collaboration and technology innovation is moving fast to accelerate data protection and cybersecurity strategies with a focus on modernizing infrastructure, securing the digital supply chain, and very importantly, simplifying the integration of data protection and cybersecurity. Today there's heightened awareness that the world of data protection is not only an adjacency to, but it's becoming a fundamental component of cybersecurity strategies. In particular, in order to build more resilience into a business, data protection, people, technologies, and processes must be more tightly coordinated with security operations. Hello and welcome to the future of Multi-Cloud Data Protection Made Possible by Dell in collaboration with the Cube. My name is Dave Ante and I'll be your host today. In this segment, we welcome into the cube, two senior executives from Dell who will share details on new technology announcements that directly address these challenges. >>Jeff Boudreau is the president and general manager of Dell's Infrastructure Solutions Group, isg, and he's gonna share his perspectives on the market and the challenges he's hearing from customers. And we're gonna ask Jeff to double click on the messages that Dell is putting into the marketplace and give us his detailed point of view on what it means for customers. Now, Jeff is gonna be joined by Travis Vhi. Travis is the senior Vice President of product management for ISG at Dell Technologies, and he's gonna give us details on the products that are being announced today and go into the hard news. Now, we're also gonna challenge our guests to explain why Dell's approach is unique and different in the marketplace. Thanks for being with us. Let's get right into it. We're here with Jeff Padre and Travis Behill. We're gonna dig into the details about Dell's big data protection announcement. Guys, good to see you. Thanks >>For coming in. Good to see you. Thank you for having us. >>You're very welcome. Right. Let's start off, Jeff, with the high level, you know, I'd like to talk about the customer, what challenges they're facing. You're talking to customers all the time, What are they telling you? >>Sure. As you know, we do, we spend a lot of time with our customers, specifically listening, learning, understanding their use cases, their pain points within their specific environments. They tell us a lot. Notice no surprise to any of us, that data is a key theme that they talk about. It's one of their most important, important assets. They need to extract more value from that data to fuel their business models, their innovation engines, their competitive edge. So they need to make sure that that data is accessible, it's secure in its recoverable, especially in today's world with the increased cyber attacks. >>Okay. So maybe we could get into some of those, those challenges. I mean, when, when you talk about things like data sprawl, what do you mean by that? What should people know? Sure. >>So for those big three themes, I'd say, you know, you have data sprawl, which is the big one, which is all about the massive amounts of data. It's the growth of that data, which is growing at an unprecedented rates. It's the gravity of that data and the reality of the multi-cloud sprawl. So stuff is just everywhere, right? Which increases that service a tax base for cyber criminals. >>And by gravity you mean the data's there and people don't wanna move it. >>It's everywhere, right? And so when it lands someplace, I think edge, core or cloud, it's there and that's, it's something we have to help our customers with. >>Okay, so just it's nuanced cuz complexity has other layers. What are those >>Layers? Sure. When we talk to our customers, they tell us complexity is one of their big themes. And specifically it's around data complexity. We talked about that growth and gravity of the data. We talk about multi-cloud complexity and we talk about multi-cloud sprawl. So multiple vendors, multiple contracts, multiple tool chains, and none of those work together in this, you know, multi-cloud world. Then that drives their security complexity. So we talk about that increased attack surface, but this really drives a lot of operational complexity for their teams. Think about we're lack consistency through everything. So people, process, tools, all that stuff, which is really wasting time and money for our customers. >>So how does that affect the cyber strategies and the, I mean, I've often said the ciso now they have this shared responsibility model, they have to do that across multiple clouds. Every cloud has its own security policies and, and frameworks and syntax. So maybe you could double click on your perspective on that. >>Sure. I'd say the big, you know, the big challenge customers have seen, it's really inadequate cyber resiliency. And specifically they're feeling, feeling very exposed. And today as the world with cyber tax being more and more sophisticated, if something goes wrong, it is a real challenge for them to get back up and running quickly. And that's why this is such a, a big topic for CEOs and businesses around the world. >>You know, it's funny, I said this in my open, I, I think that prior to the pandemic businesses were optimized for efficiency and now they're like, wow, we have to actually put some headroom into the system to be more resilient. You know, I you hearing >>That? Yeah, we absolutely are. I mean, the customers really, they're asking us for help, right? It's one of the big things we're learning and hearing from them. And it's really about three things, one's about simplifying it, two, it is really helping them to extract more value from their data. And then the third big, big piece is ensuring their data is protected and recoverable regardless of where it is going back to that data gravity and that very, you know, the multi-cloud world just recently, I don't know if you've seen it, but the global data protected, excuse me, the global data protection index gdp. >>I, Yes. Jesus. Not to be confused with gdpr, >>Actually that was released today and confirms everything we just talked about around customer challenges, but also it highlights an importance of having a very cyber, a robust cyber resilient data protection strategy. >>Yeah, I haven't seen the latest, but I, I want to dig into it. I think this, you've done this many, many years in a row. I like to look at the, the, the time series and see how things have changed. All right. At, at a high level, Jeff, can you kind of address why Dell and from your point of view is best suited? >>Sure. So we believe there's a better way or a better approach on how to handle this. We think Dell is uniquely positioned to help our customers as a one stop shop, if you will, for that cyber resilient multi-cloud data protection solution and needs. We take a modern, a simple and resilient approach. >>What does that mean? What, what do you mean by modern? >>Sure. So modern, we talk about our software defined architecture, right? It's really designed to meet the needs not only of today, but really into the future. And we protect data across any cloud and any workload. So we have a proven track record doing this today. We have more than 1700 customers that trust us to protect them more than 14 exabytes of their data in the cloud today. >>Okay, so you said modern, simple and resilient. What, what do you mean by simple? Sure. >>We wanna provide simplicity everywhere, going back to helping with the complexity challenge, and that's from deployment to consumption to management and support. So our offers will deploy in minutes. They are easy to operate and use, and we support flexible consumption models for whatever customer may desire. So traditional subscription or as a service. >>And when you, when you talk about resilient, I mean, I, I put forth that premise, but it's hard because people say, Well, that's gonna gonna cost us more. Well, it may, but you're gonna also reduce your, your risk. So what's your point of view on resilience? >>Yeah, I think it's, it's something all customers need. So we're gonna be providing a comprehensive and resilient portfolio of cyber solutions that are secured by design. We have some ver some unique capabilities and a combination of things like built in amenability, physical and logical isolation. We have intelligence built in with AI par recovery. And just one, I guess fun fact for everybody is we have our cyber vault is the only solution in the industry that is endorsed by Sheltered Harbor that meets all the needs of the financial sector. >>So it's interesting when you think about the, the NIST framework for cybersecurity, it's all about about layers. You're sort of bringing that now to, to data protection, correct? Yeah. All right. In a minute we're gonna come back with Travis and dig into the news. We're gonna take a short break. Keep it right there. Okay. We're back with Jeff and Travis Vhi to dig deeper into the news. Guys, again, good to see you. Travis, if you could, maybe you, before we get into the news, can you set the business context for us? What's going on out there? >>Yeah, thanks for that question, Dave. To set a little bit of the context, when you look at the data protection market, Dell has been a leader in providing solutions to customers for going on nearly two decades now. We have tens of thousands of people using our appliances. We have multiple thousands of people using our latest modern simple power protect data managers software. And as Jeff mentioned, we have, you know, 1700 customers protecting 14 exabytes of data in the public clouds today. And that foundation gives us a unique vantage point. We talked to a lot of customers and they're really telling us three things. They want simple solutions, they want us to help them modernize and they want us to add as the highest priority, maintain that high degree of resiliency that they expect from our data protection solutions. So tho that's the backdrop to the news today. And, and as we go through the news, I think you'll, you'll agree that each of these announcements deliver on those pillars. And in particular today we're announcing the Power Protect data manager appliance. We are announcing power protect cyber recovery enhancements, and we are announcing enhancements to our Apex data storage >>Services. Okay, so three pieces. Let's, let's dig to that. It's interesting appliance, everybody wants software, but then you talk to customers and they're like, Well, we actually want appliances because we just wanna put it in and it works, right? It performs great. So, so what do we need to know about the appliance? What's the news there? Well, >>You know, part of the reason I gave you some of those stats to begin with is that we have this strong foundation of, of experience, but also intellectual property components that we've taken that have been battle tested in the market. And we've put them together in a new simple integrated appliance that really combines the best of the target appliance capabilities we have with that modern simple software. And we've integrated it from the, you know, sort of taking all of those pieces, putting them together in a simple, easy to use and easy to scale interface for customers. >>So the premise that I've been putting forth for, you know, months now, probably well, well over a year, is that, that that data protection is becoming an extension of your, your cybersecurity strategies. So I'm interested in your perspective on cyber recovery, you specific news that you have there. >>Yeah, you know, we, we are, in addition to simplifying things via the, the appliance, we are providing solutions for customers no matter where they're deploying. And cyber recovery, especially when it comes to cloud deployments, is an increasing area of interest and deployment that we see with our customers. So what we're announcing today is that we're expanding our cyber recovery services to be available in Google Cloud with this announcement. It means we're available in all three of the major clouds and it really provides customers the flexibility to secure their data no matter if they're running, you know, on premises in a colo at the edge in the public cloud. And the other nice thing about this, this announcement is that you have the ability to use Google Cloud as a cyber recovery vault that really allows customers to isolate critical data and they can recover that critical data from the vault back to on premises or from that vault back to running their cyber cyber protection or their data protection solutions in the public cloud. >>I always invoke my, my favorite Matt Baker here. It's not a zero sum game, but this is a perfect example where there's opportunities for a company like Dell to partner with the public cloud provider. You've got capabilities that don't exist there. You've got the on-prem capabilities. We can talk about edge all day, but that's a different topic. Okay, so my, my other question Travis, is how does this all fit into Apex? We hear a lot about Apex as a service, it's sort of the new hot thing. What's happening there? What's the news around Apex? >>Yeah, we, we've seen incredible momentum with our Apex solutions since we introduced data protection options into them earlier this year. And we're really building on that momentum with this announcement being, you know, providing solutions that allow customers to consume flexibly. And so what we're announcing specifically is that we're expanding Apex data storage services to include a data protection option. And it's like with all Apex offers, it's a pay as you go solution really streamlines the process of customers purchasing, deploying, maintaining and managing their backup software. All a customer really needs to do is, you know, specify their base capacity, they specify their performance tier, they tell us do they want a a one year term or a three year term and we take it from there. We, we get them up and running so they can start deploying and consuming flexibly. And it's, as with many of our Apex solutions, it's a simple user experience all exposed through a unified Apex console. >>Okay. So it's you keeping it simple, like I think large, medium, small, you know, we hear a lot about t-shirt sizes. I I'm a big fan of that cuz you guys should be smart enough to figure out, you know, based on my workload, what I, what I need, how different is this? I wonder if you guys could, could, could address this. Jeff, maybe you can, >>You can start. Sure. I'll start and then pitch me, you know, Travis, you you jump in when I screw up here. So, awesome. So first I'd say we offer innovative multi-cloud data protection solutions. We provide that deliver performance, efficiency and scale that our customers demand and require. We support as Travis and all the major public clouds. We have a broad ecosystem of workload support and I guess the, the great news is we're up to 80% more cost effective than any of the competition. >>80%. 80%, That's a big number, right? Travis, what's your point of view on this? Yeah, >>I, I think number one, end to end data protection. We, we are that one stop shop that I talked about. Whether it's a simplified appliance, whether it's deployed in the cloud, whether it's at the edge, whether it's integrated appliances, target appliances, software, we have solutions that span the gamut as a service. I mentioned the Apex solution as well. So really we can, we can provide solutions that help support customers and protect them, any workload, any cloud, anywhere that data lives edge core to cloud. The other thing that we hear as a, as a, a big differentiator for Dell and, and Jeff touched on on this a little bit earlier, is our intelligent cyber resiliency. We have a unique combination in, in the market where we can offer immutability or protection against deletion as, as sort of that first line of defense. But we can also offer a second level of defense, which is isolation, talking, talking about data vaults or cyber vaults and cyber recovery. And the, at more importantly, the intelligence that goes around that vault. It can look at detecting cyber attacks, it can help customers speed time to recovery and really provides AI and ML to help early diagnosis of a cyber attack and fast recovery should a cyber attack occur. And, and you know, if you look at customer adoption of that solution specifically in the clouds, we have over 1300 customers utilizing power protect cyber recovery. >>So I think it's fair to say that your, I mean your portfolio has obvious been a big differentiator whenever I talk to, you know, your finance team, Michael Dell, et cetera, that end to end capability that that, that your ability to manage throughout the supply chain. We actually just did a a, an event recently with you guys where you went into what you're doing to make infrastructure trusted. And so my take on that is you, in a lot of respects, you're shifting, you know, the client's burden to your r and d now they have a lot of work to do, so it's, it's not like they can go home and just relax, but, but that's a key part of the partnership that I see. Jeff, I wonder if you could give us the, the, the final thoughts. >>Sure. Dell has a long history of being a trusted partner with it, right? So we have unmatched capabilities. Going back to your point, we have the broadest portfolio, we have, you know, we're a leader in every category that we participate in. We have a broad deep breadth of portfolio. We have scale, we have innovation that is just unmatched within data protection itself. We have the trusted market leader, no, if and or buts, we're number one for both data protection software in appliances per idc and we would just name for the 17th consecutive time the leader in the, the Gartner Magic Quadrant. So bottom line is customers can count on Dell. >>Yeah, and I think again, we're seeing the evolution of, of data protection. It's not like the last 10 years, it's really becoming an adjacency and really a key component of your cyber strategy. I think those two parts of the organization are coming together. So guys, really appreciate your time. Thanks for Thank you sir. Thanks Travis. Good to see you. All right, in a moment I'm gonna come right back and summarize what we learned today, what actions you can take for your business. You're watching the future of multi-cloud data protection made possible by Dell and collaboration with the cube, your leader in enterprise and emerging tech coverage right back >>In our data driven world. Protecting data has never been more critical to guard against everything from cyber incidents to unplanned outages. You need a cyber resilient, multi-cloud data protection strategy. >>It's not a matter of if you're gonna get hacked, it's a matter of when. And I wanna know that I can recover and continue to recover each day. >>It is important to have a cyber security and a cyber resiliency plan in place because the threat of cyber attack are imminent. >>Power protects. Data manager from Dell Technologies helps deliver the data protection and security confidence you would expect from a trusted partner and market leader. >>We chose Power Protect Data Manager because we've been a strategic partner with Dell Technologies for roughly 20 years now. Our partnership with Dell Technologies has provided us with the ability to scale and grow as we've transitioned from 10 billion in assets to 20 billion. >>With Power Protect Data Manager, you can enjoy exceptional ease of use to increase your efficiency and reduce costs. >>Got installed it by myself, learned it by myself with very intuitive >>While restoring a machine with Power Protect Data Manager is fast. We can fully manage Power Protect through the center. We can recover a whole machine in seconds. >>Data Manager offers innovation such as Transparent snapshots to simplify virtual machine backups and it goes beyond backup and restore to provide valuable insights and to protected data workloads and VMs. >>In our previous environment, it would take anywhere from three to six hours at night to do a single backup of each vm. Now we're backing up hourly and it takes two to three seconds with the transparent snapshots. >>With Power Protects Data Manager, you get the peace of mind knowing that your data is safe and available whenever you need it. >>Data is extremely important. We can't afford to lose any data. We need things just to work. >>Start your journey to modern data protection with Dell Power Protect Data manager. Visit dell.com/power Protect Data Manager. >>We put forth the premise in our introduction that the worlds of data protection in cybersecurity must be more integrated. We said that data recovery strategies have to be built into security practices and procedures and by default this should include modern hardware and software. Now in addition to reviewing some of the challenges that customers face, which have been pretty well documented, we heard about new products that Dell Technologies is bringing to the marketplace that specifically address these customer concerns. There were three that we talked about today. First, the Power Protect Data Manager Appliance, which is an integrated system taking advantage of Dell's history in data protection, but adding new capabilities. And I want to come back to that in the moment. Second is Dell's Power Protect cyber recovery for Google Cloud platform. This rounds out the big three public cloud providers for Dell, which joins AWS and and Azure support. >>Now finally, Dell has made its target backup appliances available in Apex. You might recall earlier this year we saw the introduction from Dell of Apex backup services and then in May at Dell Technologies world, we heard about the introduction of Apex Cyber Recovery Services. And today Dell is making its most popular backup appliances available and Apex. Now I wanna come back to the Power Protect data manager appliance because it's a new integrated appliance. And I asked Dell off camera really what is so special about these new systems and what's really different from the competition because look, everyone offers some kind of integrated appliance. So I heard a number of items, Dell talked about simplicity and efficiency and containers and Kubernetes. So I kind of kept pushing and got to what I think is the heart of the matter in two really important areas. One is simplicity. >>Dell claims that customers can deploy the system in half the time relative to the competition. So we're talking minutes to deploy and of course that's gonna lead to much simpler management. And the second real difference I heard was backup and restore performance for VMware workloads. In particular, Dell has developed transparent snapshot capabilities to fundamentally change the way VMs are protected, which leads to faster backup and restores with less impact on virtual infrastructure. Dell believes this new development is unique in the market and claims that in its benchmarks the new appliance was able to back up 500 virtual machines in 47% less time compared to a leading competitor. Now this is based on Dell benchmarks, so hopefully these are things that you can explore in more detail with Dell to see if and how they apply to your business. So if you want more information, go to the data protectionPage@dell.com. You can find that at dell.com/data protection. And all the content here and other videos are available on demand@thecube.net. Check out our series on the blueprint for trusted infrastructure, it's related and has some additional information. And go to silicon angle.com for all the news and analysis related to these and other announcements. This is Dave Valante. Thanks for watching the future of multi-cloud protection made possible by Dell in collaboration with the Cube, your leader in enterprise and emerging tech coverage.

>>Prior to the pandemic, organizations were largely optimized for efficiency as the best path to bottom line profits. Many CIOs tell the cube privately that they were caught off guard by the degree to which their businesses required greater resiliency beyond their somewhat cumbersome disaster recovery processes. And the lack of that business resilience has actually cost firms because they were unable to respond to changing market forces. And certainly we've seen this dynamic with supply chain challenges and there's a little doubt. We're also seeing it in the area of cybersecurity generally, and data recovery. Specifically. Over the past 30 plus months, the rapid adoption of cloud to support remote workers and build in business resilience had the unintended consequences of expanding attack vectors, which brought an escalation of risk from cybercrime. Well, security in the public clouds is certainly world class. The result of multi-cloud has brought with it multiple shared responsibility models, multiple ways of implementing security policies across clouds and on-prem. >>And at the end of the day, more, not less complexity, but there's a positive side to this story. The good news is that public policy industry collaboration and technology innovation is moving fast to accelerate data protection and cybersecurity strategies with a focus on modernizing infrastructure, securing the digital supply chain, and very importantly, simplifying the integration of data protection and cybersecurity. Today there's heightened awareness that the world of data protection is not only an adjacency to, but it's becoming a fundamental component of cybersecurity strategies. In particular, in order to build more resilience into a business, data protection, people, technologies, and processes must be more tightly coordinated with security operations. Hello and welcome to the future of Multi-Cloud Data Protection Made Possible by Dell in collaboration with the Cube. My name is Dave Ante, and I'll be your host today In this segment, we welcome into the Cube, two senior executives from Dell who will share details on new technology announcements that directly address these challenges. >>Jeff Boudreau is the president and general manager of Dell's Infrastructure Solutions Group, isg, and he's gonna share his perspectives on the market and the challenges he's hearing from customers. And we're gonna ask Jeff to double click on the messages that Dell is putting into the marketplace and give us his detailed point of view on what it means for customers. Now, Jeff is gonna be joined by Travis Vhi. Travis is the Senior Vice President of product management for ISG at Dell Technologies, and he's gonna give us details on the products that are being announced today and go into the hard news. Now, we're also gonna challenge our guests to explain why Dell's approach is unique and different in the marketplace. Thanks for being with us. Let's get right into it.

>> We're here with Jeff Boudreau and Travis Vigil, and we're going to dig into the details about Dell's big data protection announcement. Guys, good to see you. Thanks for coming in. >> Good to see you. Thank you for having us. >> You're very welcome. Let's start off, Jeff, with a high level, you know I'd like to talk about the customer, what challenges they're facing. You're talking to customers all the time, what are they telling you? >> Sure. As you know, we spend a lot of time with our customers, specifically listening, learning understanding their use cases their pain points within their specific environments. They tell us a lot, to no surprise to any of us that data is a key theme that they talk about. It's one of their most important assets. They need to extract more value from that data to fuel their business models their innovation engines, their competitive edge. So they need to make sure that that data is accessible it's secure, and it's recoverable, especially in today's world with the increased cyber attacks. >> Okay. So maybe we could get into some of those challenges. I mean, when you talk about things like data sprawl what do you mean by that? What should people know? >> Sure, so for those big three themes, I'd say, you know you have data sprawl, which is the big one which is all about the massive amounts of data. It's the growth of that data which is growing at an unprecedented rates. It's the gravity of that data and the reality of the multi-cloud sprawl. So stuff is just everywhere, right? Which increases that service, attack space for cyber criminals. >> And by gravity you mean the data's there and people don't want to move it. >> It's everywhere, right? And so when it lands someplace, think Edge, Core or Cloud, it's there. And it's something we have to help our customers with. >> Okay. So it's nuanced cause complexity has other layers. What are those layers? >> Sure. When we talk to our customers they tell us complexity is one of their big themes. And specifically it's around data complexity. We talked about that growth and gravity of the data. We talk about multi-cloud complexity and we talk about multi-cloud sprawl. So multiple vendors, multiple contracts multiple tool chains, and none of those work together in this, you know, multi-cloud world. Then that drives their security complexity. So we talk about that increased attack surface. But this really drives a lot of operational complexity for their teams. Think about, we're lack consistency through everything. So people, process, tools, all that stuff which is really wasting time and money for our customers. >> So how does that affect the cyber strategies and the, I've often said the CISO, now they have this shared responsibility model they have to do that across multiple clouds. Every cloud has its own security policies and frameworks and syntax. So maybe you could double click on your perspective on that. >> Sure. I'd say the big challenge customers have seen, it's really inadequate cyber resiliency. And specifically they're feeling very exposed. And today as the world with cyber attacks being more and more sophisticated, if something goes wrong it is a real challenge for them to get back up and running quickly. And that's why this is such a big topic for CEOs and businesses around the world. >> You know, it's funny, I said this in my open, I think that prior to the pandemic businesses were optimized for efficiency and now they're like, wow, we have to actually put some headroom into the system to be more resilient, you know? Are you hearing that? >> Yeah, we absolutely are. I mean, the customers really they're asking us for help, right? It's one of the big things we're learning and hearing from them. And it's really about three things one's about simplifying IT. Two, it's really helping them to extract more value from their data. And then the third big piece is ensuring their data is protected and recoverable regardless of where it is going back to that data gravity and that very, you know the multi-cloud world. Just recently, I don't know if you've seen it, but the global data protected, excuse me the global data protection index. >> GDPI. >> Yes. Jesus! >> Not to be confused with GDPR. >> Actually that was released today and confirms everything we just talked about around customer challenges but also it highlights an importance of having a very cyber, a robust cyber resilient data protection strategy. >> Yeah, I haven't seen the latest, but I want to dig into it. I think this, you've done this many, many years in a row. I like to look at the time series and see how things have changed. All right. At a high level, Jeff, can you kind of address why Dell and from your point of view is best suited? >> Sure. So we believe there's a better way or a better approach on how to handle this. We think Dell is uniquely positioned to help our customers as a one stop shop, if you will, for that cyber resilient multi-cloud data protection solution and needs. We take a modern, a simple and resilient approach. >> Well what does that mean? What do you mean by modern? >> Sure. So modern, we talk about our software defined architecture, right? It's really designed to meet the needs not only of today but really into the future. And we protect data across any cloud and any workload. So we have a proven track record doing this today. We have more than 1700 customers that trust us to protect more than 14 exabytes of their data in the cloud today. >> Okay. So you said modern, simple and resilient. What, what do you mean by simple? >> Sure. We want to provide simplicity everywhere, going back to helping with the complexity challenge, and that's from deployment to consumption to management and support. So our offers will deploy in minutes. They are easy to operate and use and we support flexible consumption models for whatever customer may desire. So traditional, subscription, or as a service. >> And when you talk about resilient, I mean I put forth that premise, but it's hard because people say, well, that's going to going to cost us more. Well, it may, but you're going to also reduce your risk. So what's your point of view on resilience? >> Yeah, I think it's something all customers need. So we're going to be providing a comprehensive and resilient portfolio of cyber solutions that are secured by design. We have some some unique capabilities in a combination of things like built in immuneability, physical and logical isolation. We have intelligence built in with AI parred recovery and just one, I guess fun fact for everybody is we have our cyber vault is the only solution in the industry that is endorsed by Sheltered Harbor that meets all the needs of the financial sector. >> So it's interesting when you think about the NIST framework for cybersecurity, it's all about layers. You're sort of bringing that now to data protection. >> Correct. >> Yeah. All right. In a minute we're going to come back with Travis and dig into the news. We're going to take a short break, keep it right there. (calming piano music)

>>And welcome to this special cube conversation. I'm John for a, your host of the cube. We're here in Palo Alto, California, and I'm here with a very special guest coming down from Seattle remotely into the cube studios is the leader at AWS Amazon web services, the vice president of database analytics and machine learning Swami. Great to see you cube alumni recently taking over the database business at AWS as a leader. Congratulations. And thanks for coming on the cube. >>Hey, my pleasure to be here, John, very excited to talk to you. >>Yeah. We've had many conversations on the cube and also in person and also online around all the major mega trends. You've had your hand in all the action, going back to your days when you were in school learning and, and writing papers. And 10 years ago, Amazon web services launched AWS dynamo, DB, fast, flexible, no SQL database that everyone loves today, which has inspired a generation of what I would call database distributing cloud scale, single digit millisecond performance at scale. And again, the key scale. And again, this is 10 years ago, so it seems like yesterday, but you guys are celebrating and your name was on the original paper with CTO Verner. Vogel's your celebrity. Congratulations. >>Thank you. Not sure about the celebrating part, but I'm very excited. At least I played a hand in building such an amazing technology that has enabled so many amazing customers along the way as well. So >>Trivia on the, on the paper as you were an intern at AWS, so you're getting your PhD. And then since, since rising through the ranks and involved in a lot of products over the years, and then leading the machine learning and AI, which is now changing the game at the industry level, but I got to ask you getting back to the story here. A lot of customers have built amazing things on top of dynamo DB, not to mention lots of other AWS and Amazon tech riding on it. Can you share some of the highlights that came out of the original paper? And so with some examples, because I think this is a point in time, 10 years ago, where you start to, so the KickUp of cloud scale, not just, just for developers and building startups, you're really starting to see the scale rise. >>Yeah, I actually, I mean, as you probably know, based on what he read to explain the Genesis of dynamo DB itself had to explain the Genesis of how Amazon got into building the original dynamo, right? And this was during the time when miner, I joined Ron esteem as an intern and, and Amazon was one of the pioneers in pushing the boundary of scale. And a year over year, our Q4 holiday season tends to be really, really bad for all the right reasons. We all want our holiday shopping done during that time. And you want to be able to scale your website, arters fulfillment centers, all of them at that time. And those are the times around 2005. And the answer is when people think our database, they think of a single database server that actually runs on a box and has a certain characteristics and does a scale and availability and whatnot. >>And it's usually relational. And then when we had a major disruption during Q4 that's when yeah, ask ourselves the question, why are we actually using a relational database for some of these things when they really didn't need the data model complexity of relational database. And normally I would say most companies where to actually ask an intern or a few engineers who are early in the career saying like, what the hell are you suggesting? Just go away. But Amazon being enabling Buddhists to build what they want. And they actually let us start reimagining what a database or our scale could look like. And that led to dynamo. And since she unstained mine, then we migrated from an traditional relational database stair this one for some of the amazon.com services. And then I moved on to actually start building some butts off our storage service and then our managed relational database service, I explicitly remember. >>And one of our customer advisory board, we're just the set off some of our leading customers who actually give us feedback on roadmap. Another son, Don, who's the CEO and chief geek of spunk bargain faker. And him actually looking at the Trinity me, I was starting in the corner and saying like you all, both tomorrow and why do I need to keep shotting my, my sequel database and reshooting assigned scaling. And this is the time when the state of the art in most databases were around. Like, you start sharding your relational database and constantly reshaping. And this is when most websites are starting to experience the kind of scale which we consider a normal month. During those times it was mostly, most companies used to have a single relational database backend and start scaling that way. And that conversation led entirely under duress, unaided read, lot of AWS leaders and myself saying like, Hey, what is a cloud database reimagined without the hampering SQL look like? And that led us to start building dynamo DB, but just a key value database at that time. Now we support document might've too, but that single digit millisecond latency at any scale imagine. So >>I think about that time at that time, 10 years ago, when you were having this conversation and I know the smug mug and I, he said, he's in totally geek and he's, he's good to point that out. You also have Netflix as customers too. I'd like to hear how that's evolved, but, but I think back at the time, if you look back then I got to ask you most people we've talked about this before. No one database rules, a world that's now standard people now don't see one database back then it was a one database kind of mindset back then. Yeah. And then you had that big data movement happening with Hadoop. You had the object store developing. So you're in you're you're circling around that area. What was it like then? I mean, take, take us through that because there was obvious visibility that, Hey, let's just store this. Now you see data lakes and that's all happening. But back then object store was kind of new. Yeah. >>Ah, it's a great question. Now, one of the things I realized early on, especially when I was working with binary, when you're saying amazon.com itself as an example, that the access patterns for various applications and Amazon, but let alone AWS customers tend to be very, very, very, some of them really just needed an object store. Some of them needed a relational database. Some of them really wanted a key value store within a fast latency. Some of them really needed a durable cash. And, but it so happens when you have a giant hammer. You use that for everything looks like a map, which is essentially the story at that time. And so everyone kept using the same database, irrespective of what the problem was because nobody else, I mean, thought about like, what else can we build that is better? So this let us do, literally I remember writing a paper with Bernard internally that is widely used in Amazon explaining what are all the menu of booklets that access. >>And then how do we go about actually solving for each of these things so that they can actually grow and innovate faster. And, and this was led to actually the Genesis of not only building IDs and so forth, but also dynamo and various other non-relational data. There's a still let alone not so storage access patterns and what not. So, and this was one of the big revelations he had just that there is not a single database that is going to meet the customer, needs us. The diversity of workloads in the internet is growing. And this was a key pivotal moment because with cloud now applications can scale very more instantly than before now. Building an application for Superbowl is very easier than before. That means that on, I mean, everybody is pushing the boundaries of what scale means, and they are expecting more from their obligations. That's when you need technologies like dynamo, DB, and that's exactly what dynamo already be set out to do. And since then, we are continuing to innovate on behalf of our customers and the purpose of the database story as well. And this concept has resonated well across the board. If you see that the database industry has also embraced this method, >>It's natural that you obviously evolved into the machine learning side of it because that's data is big part of that. And you see back then you, you bringing up kind of like flashes for me where it's like those, the data conversations back then and the data movement was just beginning. So the idea that you can have diversity in access methods of the kind of databases was a use case driven by the application, not so much database saying, this is how you have to work, that the script was flipped. It it's changed from infrastructure dictating to the applications, what to do. Now, the applications are going to the infrastructure and saying, give me what I want. I want to access something here in an office store, something here in no SQL that became the Genesis of infrastructure as code at a, at a global level. And so your paper kind of set the, the, the wave, the influence for this, no SQL did big data movement. It's created tons of value, maybe a third Mongo might've been influenced by this other people have been influenced. Can you share some stories of how people adopted the concept of dynamo DB and how that's changed in the industry and how has that helped the industry evolve? >>I mean, plus file data. Most share our experience of building and dynamo style data store. Very, it is a non-relational API and showing what are some of the experiences that the Venter in building such an paper and these set out early on itself, that it is should not be just a design paper, but it should be something that we shared our experiences. So even now, when I talked to my friends and colleagues and various other companies, one thing they always tell me is they appreciated the openness with which we were sharing. Some of the examples and learnings that we learned to not optimizing for percentile latencies, and what are some of the scalability challenges, how we solved and some of the techniques around things like sloppy Cora or various other stuff. We invented a lot of towns along the way too, but people really appreciated several of some of our findings and as talking about it. >>And since then I met so many other innovations are happening in the industry and the AWS, but also across the entire academia and industry in this space, the databases I've been going through what I call as a period of Renaissance, where one of the things, if you see our own arc, when Roger and I started on the database, front Disney started over the promo saying like, if you were to build a database where cloud is the new normal, this is again in 2008, we asked ourselves that question and what the belt that led us to start building things like dynamo, DB, RDS star. I know that alone, we reimagined data viruses with Redshift and several, and then several other databases like time stream for time series workloads started running Neptune for graph and whatnot. But at the moment we started actually asking that question and working backwards from customers. Then you will start being able to innovate accordingly. And this has worked really well. Then more than a hundred thousand AWS customers have chosen dynamo DB for mobile gaming tech IOT. Many of these are fast growing businesses, such as ledge, Darryl BNB, red fan, as soon as enterprises like Samsung Toyota, capital one and so far. So these are like really some meaningful clouds, let alone amazon.com. I run this. >>We have an internal customer is always good to have that entire inside customer. You know, I really find this a really profound use case because you're just talking, you know, in Amazonian terms, I'll just translate for the audience working backwards from the customer, which is the customer obsession you guys have. So here's, what's going on off the way I see it. You got dynamo, DB, paper, you and Verner, and the team Paul was a great as a great video on your blog posts that goes into the, to the talk he gave at around that time, which is fun to watch if you look back, but you have a radical enabler here, that's disrupting and changing S3 RDS, Aurora. These are game-changing concepts inside the, the landscape of AWS at the same time, you're working backwards from the customer. So the question I have for you as a leader and as a builder, how did you balance the working backwards from the customer while bringing something brand new and radical at that time to the market? >>Yeah, this is one of the S I mean hardest things to be, as leaders need to balance on. If you see many times, then we actually worked backwards from customers. The literal later translated this, literally do what customers are asking for, which is true nine out of 10 times, but there is one or a 10 times, you got to read between the lines on what they are asking. Because many times customers when are articulate that they need to go fast. If in the right way, they might say, Hey, I wish my heart storage goes faster, but they're not going to tell you they need a car, but you need to know and be able to translate and read between the lines we call it under the bucket of innovate on behalf of customers. And that is exactly the kind of a mantra we had when we were thinking about concepts like dynamo DB, because essentially at that time, almost everybody would, if I asked, they would just say, I wish a relational database could actually be able to scale from not just like a hundred gigabyte to one terabyte are, it can take up to like 2 million transactions, a second and so forth and still be cheap and made in reality as relational databases, the way they were engineered at that time, those are not going to meet the scale needs. >>So this is fair. We hunted read between the lines on what are some of the key Mustang needs from customers and then work backwards and then innovate on behalf of these workloads, be enabled by the sun oh four, which are some of the reasons that led to us launching some of the initial sets on dynamo on a single digit millisecond latency and seamless scale. At that time, databases didn't have the elasticity to go from like 10 requests, a second to like a hundred thousand or 1 million requests a second, and then scaled right back in an hour. So that was not possible. And we kind of enabled that. And that was an, a pretty big game changer that showed the elasticity of the cloud to a database. Well, >>Yeah, I think also just to, not to nerd out on this, but it enables a lot of other kind of cool scaled concepts, like queuing storage. It's all kind of together. This database piece of that you guys are solving. And again, props to you guys on the team. Congratulations. I have to ask, you know, more generally, how has your thinking changed since the paper? I'll see, you've got more experience under your belt. You don't yet have the gray hairs yet, but we'll see those soon come in, but you know, you're, you got a lot more experience. You're running teams, you're launching a lot of products. How has your thinking changed in the industry since the paper what's happening now? What's the big evolution. What are those new things now that are in the innovate on behalf of the customer? What's between the lines now, how do you see this happening? >>I mean, now since wanting dynamo via a victim, I had the opportunity to work on various problems in the big data space. There we've worked on some are fire things that you might be aware of in the analytics all the way from Redshift to quick side, too. Then I moved on to start some of our efforts, having built systems that enabled customer to store process and credit, and then analyze them. One of the realizations, I had this, the in around 2015 or 2016, I kinda had that machine learning was hitting a critical point where now it is ready for being scaled at option. Their cloud has basically enabled limitless compute and limitless storage, which are the factors that are holding back machine learning technology. Then I realized that now we have a unique opportunity to bring machine learning BI to everybody, not just folks with PhD in machine learning. >>And that's when I moved on from database and analytics areas, they started machine learning. We're just a descent area because machine learning is powered by data and then started building capabilities like SageMaker, which is our end to end ML platform to build, train and deploy them on models. And this, what does the leading enterprise platform by several gaggled users and then also a bunch of our AI services since then, I view the reason I'm giving all this historical context is one of the biggest realization I had early on itself. And 2016 as first machine learning is one of the most disruptive technologies. She will then country in our generation. This is right after cloud. I think these still are the most amazing combination that is going to revolutionize how we build applications and how we actually reason about that. Now, the second thing is that at the end of the day, when you look at the ANC and journey, it is not just about one database or one data Varroa. >>So one data lake product, or even 1:00 AM out platform. It is about the end to end journey where a customer is storing their order database. And then they are actually building a data lake that test customer history and order history. And they want to be able to personalize. And for their viewer experience are actually forecast what products to staff in their fulfillment center, but then all these things need to work and to handle. And that view is one of the big things that struck me for the past five years. And I've been on this journey in addition to building this Emma building blocks to connect the dots so that customers can go on this modern end to end data strategy as I call it, right. It goes beyond a single database technology or data technology, but putting now all of these end to end together so that customers don't end up spending six months connecting the dots, which has been the state of the down for the last couple of years. And we are bringing it down to matter of the Sundays. Now >>He's incredible Swami. Thank you so much for spending the time with us here in the, >>Yeah, my pleasure. Thanks again, Sean. Thanks for having me.

>> Narrator: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston connecting with that leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE Conversation. >> Hello and welcome to this special CUBE Conversation. I'm John Furrier, your host. We're here for a special series, Leading with Observability, and this segment is: End-to-end observability drives great digital experiences. We've got a great guest here, Craig Hyde, senior director of product management for Splunk. Craig, great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> And thanks for having me. This is great. >> So this series, Leading with Observability is a super hot topic obviously with cloud native. In the pandemic, COVID-19 has really kind of shown cloud native trend has been a tailwind for people who invested in it, who have been architecting for cloud on premises where data is a key part of that value proposition and then there's people who haven't been doing it. So, and out of this trend, the word observability has become a hot segment. And for us insiders in the industry, we know observability is just kind of network management on steroids in the cloud, so it's about data and all this. But at the end of the day, there's value that's enabled from observability. So I want to talk to you about that value that's enabled in the experience of the end user whether it's in a modern application or user inside the enterprise. Tell us what you think about this end user perspective. >> Sure, yeah thanks a lot for that intro. And I would actually argue that observability wouldn't even just be machine data or network data, it's more of a broader context where you can see everything that's going on inside the application and the digital user experience. From a user experience or a digital experience management perspective, I believe the metrics that you pull from such a thing are the most useful and ubiquitous metrics that you have and visibility in all of technology. And when done right, it can tell you what the actual end result of all this technology that you're piecing together, the end result of what's getting delivered to the user, both quantitatively and qualitatively. So, my background, I actually started a company in this domain. It was called Rigor and we focused purely on looking at user experience and digital experience. And the idea was that, you know, this was 10 years ago, we were just thinking, look, 10 years from now, more and more people are going to do business digitally, they're going to work more digitally and at the same time we saw the legacy data centers being shut down and things were moving to the cloud. So we said, look, the future is in the users, and where it all comes together is on the user's desktop or on their phone, and so we set out to focus specifically on that space. Fast forward 10 years, we're now a part of Splunk and we're really excited to bolt this onto an overall observability strategy. You know, I believe that it's becoming more and more popular, like you said, with the pandemic and COVID-19, it was already on a tear from a digital perspective, the adoption was going through the roof and people were doing more and more remote, they were buying more and more offline, but the pandemic has just pushed it through the roof. And I mean, wow, like the digital business genie's out of the bottle and there's no putting it back now. But, you know, there's also other things that are driving the need for this and the importance of it and part of it comes with the way technology is growing. It's becoming much more complex in terms of moving parts. Where an app used to be run off three different tiers in a data center, now it could be across hundreds of machines and opaque networks, opaque data centers all over the world, and the only time you often see things, how they come together, is on the user's desktop. And so that's where we really think you got to start from the user experience and work back. And, you know, all the drive in computing is all about making things better, faster and cheaper, but without this context of the user, often the customer and the experience gets left out from reaping the rewards from all these gains. So that's sort of like encapsulates my overall view of the space and why we got into it and why I'm so excited about it. >> Well Craig, I got to ask on a personal level. I mean, you look at what happened with the pandemic, I mean, you're a pioneer, you had a vision. Folks that are on the entrepreneurial side say, hey digital businesses is coming and they get it and it's slowly gets known in the real world, becomes more certain, but with the pandemic, it just happened all of a sudden so fast for everybody because everyone's impacted. Teachers, students, families, work, everyone's at home. So the entire user experience was impacted in the entire world. What was going through your mind when you saw all this happening and you see the winners obviously were people had invested in cloud native and data-driven technologies, what was your take on all this when you saw this coming? >> Well, the overall trend has been going on for decades, right? And so the direction of it isn't that surprising, but the magnitude and the acceleration, there's some stats out there from Forbes where the e-commerce adoption doubled within the first six months of the pandemic. So we're talking, you know, 10, 12 years of things ticking up and then within six months, a doubling of the adoption of e-commerce. And so like anybody else, you first freeze and say, what does this mean? But when people start working remote and people start ordering things from Amazon and all the other websites, it's quick to see like, aha! It no longer matters what chairs somebody is sitting in when they're doing work or that they're close to a store and you have a physical storefront when you're trying to buy something, it's all about that digital experience and it needs to be ubiquitous. So it's been interesting to see the change over the past few months for sure. But again, it doesn't change the trend, it just magnified it and I don't see it going back anytime soon. >> Yeah I mean, digital transformation has always been a buzz word that everyone kind of uses as a way to kind of talk about the big picture. >> Right. >> It's actually transforming and there's also share shifts that happen in every transformation, in any market shift. Obviously that's happening with cloud. Cloud native edge is becoming super important. In all of these, and by the way, in all the applications that sit on that infrastructure which is now infrastructure as code, has a data requirement that observability piece becomes super critical, not just from identifying and resolving, but also for training machine learning and AI, right? So, again, you have this new flywheel observability that's really at the heart of digital transformation. What should companies think about when they associate observability to digital transformation as they're sitting around whether they're CXOs or CSOs or solution architects going, okay, how does observability plug into my plans? >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, my recommendation and the approach that I would take is that you want to start with the end in mind and it's all about how you set your goals when you're setting out in getting into digital transformation. And, you know, the late Steve Jobs, to borrow one of his quotes, he said that you have to start with the customer experience in mind and work backwards to the technology. And so I think that applies when you get into an observability strategy. So without understanding what the actual user experience is, you don't have a good enough yardstick to go out there and start working towards. So availability on a server or CPU time or transaction time in a database, like, those are all great, but without the context of what is the goal you're actually going after, it's kind of useless. So, like I said, it's not uptime, it's not server time, it's not any of that stuff, and it's user experience and these things are different. So they're like visual metrics, right? So what a user sees, because all kinds of things are going on in the background, but if it can see that the person can see and their experience is that they're getting some kind of response from the machine, then that's how you measure where the end point is and what the overall goal is. And so like to keep kind of going on with that, it's like you start with the end in mind, you use that end to set your goals, you use that domain and that visibility to troubleshoot faster. So when the calls start rolling in then they say, hey, I'm stuck at home and I'm on a slow internet connection, I can't get on the app and core IT is taking a phone call, You can quickly look and instrument that user and see exactly what they're seeing. So when you're troubleshooting, you're looking at the data from their perspective and then working backwards to the technology. >> That's super exciting. I want to get your thoughts on that. So just to double down on that because I think this highlights the trend that we were just talking about. But I'll break it down into three areas that I see happening in the marketplace. Number one, availability and performance. That's on everyone's mind. You just hit that, right? Number two, integrations. There's more integrations going on within platforms or tools or systems, whether it's an API over here, people are working together digitally, right? And you're seeing e-commerce. And third is the user patterns and the expectations are changing. So when you unpack those kinds of like trends, there's features of observability underneath each. Could you talk about that because I think that seems to be the common pattern that I'm seeing? Okay, high availability, okay, check. Everyone has to have that. Almost table stakes. But it's hard when you're scaling, right? And then integrations, all kinds of API is being slinged around. You've got microservices, you've got Kubernetes, people are integrating data flows, control planes, whatever, and then finally users. They want new things. New patterns emerge, which is new data. >> Yeah, absolutely. And to just kind of talk about that, it reminds me of like a Maslow's hierarchy of needs of visibility, right? Like, okay, the machine is on, check. Like you said, it's table stakes, make sure it's up and running. That's great. Then you want to see sort of the applications that are running on the machine, how they're talking to each other, are other components that you're making API calls to, are they timing out or are they breaking things? And so you get that visibility of like, okay, they're on, what's going on top of those machines are inside of them or in the containers or the virtual machines or whatever segment of computing that you're looking at, And then that cherry on top, the highest point is like, how is that stack of technology serving your customer? How's it serving the user and what's the experience? So those are sort of the three levels that we kind of look at when we're thinking of user experience. And so, it's a different way to look at it, but it's sort of the way that kind of we see the world is that three tier, that three layer cake. >> It's interesting. >> And you need all the layers. >> It's super relevant. And again, it's better together, but you can mix and match and have product in there. So I want to get into the Splunk solution. You guys have the digital experience monitoring solution. Can you explain what that is and how that fits into all this and what's in it for the customers, what's the benefit? >> Right, sure. So with the digital experience monitoring and the platform that we have, we're giving people the ability to basically do what I was talking about, where it enables you to take a look at what the user's experience are and pull metrics and then correlate them from the user all the way through the technical journey to the back end, through the different tiers of the application and so on. So that technology is called real user monitoring where we instrument the users. And then we also layer in synthetic monitoring which is the sort of robot users that are always on for when you're in lower level environments and you want to see, you know, what experience is going to look like when you push out new software, or when nobody's on the application, did something break? So a couple of those two together and then we feed that into our overall observability platform that's fed with machine data, we have all the metrics from all the components that you're looking at in that single pane of glass. And the idea is that we're also bringing you not only just the metrics and the events from logs and all the happenings, but we're also trying to help tease out some of these problems for you. So many problems that happen in technology have happened before, and we've got a catalog with our optimization platform of 300 plus things that go wrong when webpages or web applications or API calls start acting funky. And so we can provide, based on our intelligence that's built into the platform, basically run books for people to fix things faster and build those playbooks into the release process so you don't break the applications to begin with and you can set flags to where people understand what performance is before when it's being delivered to the customer, and if there are problems, let's fix them before we break the experience and lose the trust of the user. So again, it's the metrics from the stats that are coming across the wire of everything all the way to the users, it's the events from the logs that are coming in so you can see context, and then it's that user experience, it's a trace level data from where you can double click into each of the tiers and say, like, what's going on in here? What's going on in the browser? What's going on in the application? What's going on in the backend? And so you can sort of pool all that together in a single pane of glass and find problems faster, fix them faster and prevent users from having problems to begin with. And to do this properly, you really need it all under one roof and so that's why we're so excited to bring this all together. >> Yeah, I've been sitting on theCUBE for 10 years now. We've been 11 years, on our 11th year doing theCUBE. Digital you can measure everything. So why not? There should be no debate if done properly. So that brings up this whole concept that you guys are talking about full fidelity. Can you just take a minute to explain what that is? What is full fidelity mean? >> Sure, you know, full fidelity really comes down to a lot about these traces. So when we talk about metrics, logs and traces, it's all about getting all the activity that goes on in an application and looking at it. So when you or I interact with our company's app online and there's problems, that the person who's going to fix this problem, they can actually see specifically me. They can look at my experience and look at what it would look like in my browser, you know, what were all the services that I was interacting with and what was going on in the application, what code was being called, what services were being called, and look at specifically me as opposed to an aggregate of all the domains all put together. And it really is important from a troubleshooting standpoint. It's really important from an understanding of the actuals because without full fidelity and capturing all of the data, you're kind of going, you know, you're taking guesses and it eliminates a lot of the guesswork. And so that's something that's special with our platform is that ability to have the full fidelity. >> When does a client, a customer not have full fidelity? I might think I have it, someone sold me a product, What's the tell sign that I don't have full fidelity? >> Oh yeah, well with observability, there's a lot of tricks in the game. And so you see a lot of summary data that looks like, hey, this is that one call, but usually it's knitted together from a bunch of different calls. So that summary data just from, because this stuff takes up a lot of storage and there's a lot of problems with scale, and so when you might see something that looks like it's this call, it's actually like, in general, when a call like this happens, this is what it looks like. And so you've got to say like, is this the exact call? And, you know, it makes a big difference from a troubleshooting perspective and it's really hard to implement and that's something that Splunk's very good at, right? It's data at scale. It's the 800 pound gorilla in collecting and slicing apart machine data. So like, you have to have something of that scale in order to ingest all this information. It's a hard problem for sure. >> Yeah, totally. And I appreciate that. While I got you here, you're an expert, I got to ask you about Open Telemetry. We've heard that term kicked around. What does that mean? Is it an open source thing, is it an open framework? What is Open Telemetry and what does it mean for your customers or the marketplace? >> Yeah, I think of Open Telemetry as finally creating a standard for how we're collecting data from applications across AP- In the past, it's been onesie-twosie, here and there each company coming up with it themselves and there are never any standards of how to look at transactions across data, across applications and across tiers. And so Open Telemetry is the attempt and it's a consortium, so there's many people involved in pushing this together, but think of like a W3C, which creates the standards for how websites operate, and without it, the web wouldn't be what it is today. And now Open Telemetry is coming behind and doing that same thing from an observability standpoint. So you're not just totally locked into one vendor in the way that they do it and you're held hostage to only looking at that visibility. We're trying to set the standards to lower the barrier of entry into getting to application performance monitoring, network performance monitoring and just getting that telemetry where there are standards across the board. And so it's an open source project. We commit to it, and it's a really important project for observability in general. >> So does that speak to like, the whole more data you have, the less blind spots you might have? Is that the same concept? Is that some of the thinking behind this? >> It enables you to get more data faster. Now, if you think about, if there are no standards and there are no rules on the road and everybody can get on the road and they can decide if they want to drive in the left lane or the right lane today, it makes getting places a lot harder. And the same is true with Open Telemetry. without the standards of what, you know, the naming conventions, where you instrument, how you instrument, it becomes very hard to put some things in a single pane of glass because they just look differently everywhere. And so that's the idea behind it. >> Well Craig, great to have you on. You're super smart on this, and Leading with Observability, it's a hot topic. It's super cool and relevant right now with digital transformation as companies are looking to rearchitect and change how they're going to flip the script on software development, modern applications, modern infrastructure, edge, all of this is on top of mind of everyone's thing on their plans. And we certainly want to have you back in some of our conversations that we have around this on our editorial side as well with when we have these clubhouses we are going to start doing a lot of those. We definitely want to bring you in. I'll give you a final word here. Tell us what you're most excited about. Put the commercial for Splunk. Why Splunk? Why you guys are excited. Take a minute to get the plug in. >> It's so easy. Splunk has the base to make this possible. Splunk is, like I said, it's an 800 pound gorilla in machine data and taking in data at scale. And when you start going off into the observability abyss, the really, really hard part about it is having the scale to not only go broad in the levels of technology that you can collect, but also go deep. And that depth, when we talked about that full fidelity, it's really important when you get down to brass tacks and you start implementing changes and troubleshooting things and turning that data that you have in to doing, so understanding what you can do with it. And Splunk is fully committed to going, not only broad to get everything under one roof, but also deep so that you can make all of the information that you collect actionable and useful. And it's something that I haven't seen anybody even attempt and I'm really excited to be a part of building towards that vision. >> Well, I've been covering Splunk for, man, many, many years. 10 years plus, I think, since it's been founded, and really the growth and the vision and the mission still is the same. Leveraging data, making use of it, unlocking the power of data as it evolves and there's more of it. And it gets more complicated when data is involved in the user experience end-to-end from cybersecurity to user flows and new expectations. So congratulations. Great product. Thanks for coming on and sharing. >> Thanks again for having us. >> Okay, this is John Furrier in theCUBE. Leading with Observability is the theme of this series and this topic was End-to-end observability to enable great digital experiences. Thanks for watching. (lighthearted music)

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: From the keeps studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with that leaders all around the world. This is theCube conversation. >> Welcome to theCube conversation here in Palo Alto, California. I'm John Furrier, host of theCube. With a special content series called, Leading with observability, and this topic is, Keeping watch over microservices and containers. With great guests, Patrick Lin, VP of Product Management for the observability product at Splunk. Patrick, great to see you. Thanks for coming on remotely. We're still in the pandemic, but thanks for coming on. >> Yeah, John, great to see you as well. Thanks for having me. >> So, leading with observability is a big theme of our content series. Managing end to end and user experience is a great topic around how data can be used for user experience. But now underneath that layer, you have this whole craziness of the rise of the container generation, where containers are actually going mainstream. And Gardner will forecast anywhere from 30 to 40 percent of enterprises still yet, haven't really adopted at full scale and you've got to keep watch over these. So, what is the topic about keeping watch over microservice and containers, because, yeah, we know they're being deployed. Is it just watching them for watching sake or is there a specific reason? What's the theme here? Why this topic? >> Yeah, well, I think containers are part of the entire kind of stack of technology that's being deployed in order to develop and ship software more quickly. And, the fundamental reasons for that haven't changed but they've been greatly accelerated by the impact of the pandemic. And so I think for the past few years we've been talking about how software's eating the world, how it's become more and more important that company go through the transformation to be more digital. And I think now that is so patently obvious to everybody. When your only way of accessing your customer and for the customer to access your services is through a digital media. The ability for your IT and DevOps teams to be able to deliver against those requirements, to deliver that flawless customer experience, to sort of keep pace with it the digital transformation and the cloud initiatives. All of that is kind of coming as one big wave. And so, we see a lot of organizations migrating workloads to the cloud, refactoring applications, building new applications natively. And so, when they do that oftentimes the infrastructure of choice is containers. Because it's the thing that keeps up with the pace of the development. It's a much more efficient use of underlying resources. So it's all kind of part of the overall movement that we see. >> What is the main driver for this use case microservices and where's the progress bar in your mind of the adoption and deployment of microservices, and what is the critical things that are there you guys are looking at that are important to monitor and observe and keep track of? Is it the status of the microservices? Is it the fact that they're being turned on and off, the state, non-state, I mean take us through some of the main drivers for why you guys are keeping an eye on the microservices component? >> Sure, well, I think that if we take a step back the reason that people have moved towards microservices and containers fundamentally has to do with the desire to be able to, number one, develop and ship more quickly. And so if you can parallelize the development have API is the interface between these services rather than having sort of one monolithic code base, you can evolve more quickly. And on top of that, the goal is to be able to deliver software that is able to scale as needed. And so, that is a part of the equation as well. So when you sort of look at at this the desire to be able to iterate on your software and services more quickly, to be able to scale infinitely, staying up and so on. That's all like a great reason to do it, but what happens along those lines, what comes with it is a few kind of additional layers of complexity because now rather than have, let's say an end to your app that you're watching over on some hosts that you could reboot when there's a problem. Now you have 10's, maybe 100's of services running on top of maybe 100,000's, maybe 10,000's of containers. And so the complexity of that environment has grown quite quickly. And the fact that those containers may go away as you are scale the service up and down to meet demand also adds to that complexity. And so from an observability perspective, what you need to be able to do is a few things. One is you need to actually be tracking this in enough detail and at a high enough resolution in realtime. So that you know when things are coming in and out. And that's been one of the more critical things that we've built towards a Splunk, is that ability to watch over it in realtime. But more important, or just as important in that is, understanding the dependencies and the relationships between these different services. And so, that's one of the main things that we worked on here is to make sure that you can understand the dependency so that when there's an issue you have a shot at actually figuring out where the problem is coming from. Because of the fact that there's so many different services and so many things that could be affecting the overall user experience when something goes wrong. >> I think that's one of the most exciting areas right now, on observability is this whole microservices container equation, because a lot of actions being done there, there's a lot of complexity but the upside, if you do it right, it's significant. I think people generally are bought into that concept, Patrick, but I want to get your thoughts. I get this question a lot from executives and leaders whether it's a cloud architect or a CXO. And the question is, what should I consider? What do I need to consider when deploying an observability solution? >> Yeah, that's a great question. Cause I think they're obviously a lot of considerations here. So, I think one of the main ones, and this is something that I think is a pattern that we are pretty familiar with in the this sort of monitoring and management tool world. Is that, over time most enterprises have gotten themselves a very large number of tools. One for each part of their infrastructure or their application stack and so on. And so, what you end up with is sprawl in the monitoring toolset that you have. Which creates not just sort of a certain amount of overhead in terms of the cost, but also complexity that gets in the way of actually figuring out where the problem is. I've been looking at some of the toolsets that some of our customers have pulled together and they have the ability to get information about everything but it's not kind of woven together in a useful way. And it sort of gets in the way actually, having so many tools when you are actually in the heat of the moment trying to figure something out. It sort of hearkens back to the time when you have an outage, you have a con call with like a cast of 1000's on it trying to figure out what's going on. And each person comes to that with their own tool, with their own view, without anything that ties that to what the others are seeing. And so, that need to be able to provide sort of an integrated toolset, with a consistent interface across infrastructure, across the application, across what the user experience is and across the different data types. The metrics, the traces, the logs. Fundamentally I think that ability to kind of easily correlate the data across it and get to the right insight. We think that's a super important thing. >> Yeah, and I think what that points out, I mean, I always say, don't be a fool with a tool. And if you have too many tools, you have a tool shed, and there are too many tools everywhere. And that's kind of a trend, and tools are great when you need tools. To do things. But when you have too many, when you have a data model where essentially what you're saying is, a platform is the trend, because weaving stuff together you need to have a data control plane, you need to have data visualization. You need to have these things for understanding the success there. So, really it's a platform, but platforms also have tools as well. So tools or features of a platform if I get what you're saying, right? Is that correct? Yeah, so I think that there's one part of this which is, you need to be able to, if I start from the user point of view, what you want is a consistent and coherent set of workflows for the people who are trying to actually do the work. You don't want them to have to deal with the impedance mismatches across different tools that exist based on, whatever, even the language that they use but how they bring the data in and how it's being processed. You go down one layer from that. You sort of want to make sure that what they're working with is actually consistent as well. And that's the sort of capabilities that you're looking at whether you're whatever, trying to chart something to be able to look at the details, or go from a view of logs to the related traces. You sort of want to make sure that the information that's being served up there is consistent. And that in turn relies on data coming in, in a way that is sort of processed to be correlated well. So that if you say, Hey, I'm I'm looking at a particular service. I want to understand what infrastructure is sitting on or I'm looking at a log and I see that it relates to a particular service. And I want to look at traces for that service. Those things need to be kind of related from the data on in and that needs to be exposed to the user so that they can navigate it properly and make use of it. Whether that's during kind of, or time during an incident or peace time. >> Yeah, I love that wartime conciliary versus peace time. I saw blog posts from a VC, I think said, don't be a Tom Hagen, which is the guy in The Godfather when the famous lines said, you're not a wartime conciliary. Which means things are uncertain in these times and you've got to get them to be certain. This is a mindset, this is part of the pandemic we're living in. Great point, I love that. Maybe we could follow up on that at the end, but I want to get some of these topics. I want to get your reactions to. So, I want you to react to the following, Patrick. it's an issue in a topic, and there it is, missing data results in limited analytics and misguided troubleshooting. What's your reaction to that? What's your take on that? What's the Splunk's take on that? >> Yeah, I mean, I think Splunk has sort of been a proponent of that view for a very long time. I think that whether that's from the log data or from, let's say, the metric data that we capture at high resolution or from tracing. The goal here is to have the data that you need in order to actually properly diagnose what's going on. And I think that older approaches, especially on the application side, tend to sample data right at the source and provide hopefully useful samples of it for when you have that problem. That doesn't work very well in the microservice world because you need to actually be able to see the entirety of a transaction, to a full trace across many services before you could possibly make a decision as to what's useful to keep. And so, the approach that I think we believe is the right one, is to be able to capture at full fidelity all of those bits of information, partly because of what I just said, you want to be able to find the right sample, but also because it's important to be able to tie it to something that may be being pulled in by different system. So, an example of that might be, in a case where you are trying to do real user monitoring alongside of APM, and you want to see the end to end trace from what the user sees all the way through to all the backend services. And so, what's typical in this world today is that, that information is being captured by two different systems independent sampling decisions. And therefore the ability to draw a straight line from what the end user sees all the way to what is effecting it on the backend is pretty hard. Where it gets really expensive. And I think the approach that we've taken is to make it so that that's easy and cost-effective. And it's tremendously helpful then to tie it back to kind of what we were talking about at the outset here where you were trying to provide services that make sense and are easy access and so on to your end user. to be able to have that end to end view because you're not missing data. It's tremendously valuable. >> You know what I love about Splunk is, cause I'm a data geek going back when it wasn't fashionable back in the 80's. And Splunk has always been about ingesting all the data. So they bring all the data, we'll take it all. Now from at the beginning it was pretty straightforward, complex but still it had a great utility. But even now, today, it's the same thing you just mentioned, ingest all the data because there's now benefits. And I want to just ask you a quick question on this, distributed computing trend, because I mean everyone's pretty much in agreement that's in computer science or in the industry and in technology says, okay, cloud is a distributed computing with the edge. It's essentially distributed computing in a new way, new architecture with new great benefits, new things, but science is still kicking apply some science there. You mentioned distributed tracing because at the end of the day that's also a new major thing that you guys are focused on and it's not so much about, it's also good get me all the data but distributed tracing is a lot harder than understanding that because of the environment and it's changing so fast. What's your take on it? >> Yeah, well fundamentally I think this goes back to, ironically one of the principles in observability. Which is that oftentimes you need participation from the developers in sort of making sure that you have the right visibility. And it has to do with the fact that there are many services that are being kind of strong together as it were to be able to deliver on some end user transaction or some experience. And so, the fact that you have many services that are part of this, means that you need to make sure that each of those components is actually kind of providing some view into what it's doing. And distribute tracing is about taking that and kind of weaving it together so that you get that coherent view of the business workflow within the overall kind of web of services that make up your application. >> So the next topic, I want to get into, we've got limited time, but I'm going to squeeze through, but I'm going to read it to you real quick. Slow alerts and insights are difficult to scale. If they're difficult to scale it holds back the meantime between resolving. And so, it's difficult to detect in cloud. It was easier maybe on premise, but with cloud this is another complexity thing. How are you seeing the inability to scale quickly across the environments for to manage the performance issues and delays that are coming out of not having that kind of in slow insights or managing that? What's your reaction to that? >> Yeah, well, I think there are a lot of tools out there that we'll take in events or where issues from cloud environments. But they're not designed from the very beginning to be able to handle the sort of scale of what you're looking at. So, I mentioned, it's not uncommon for a company to have 10's or maybe even 100's of services and 1000's of containers or hosts. And so, the sort of sheer amount of data you have to be looking at on an ongoing basis. And the fact that things can change very quickly. Containers can pop in and go away within seconds. And so, the ability to track that in realtime implies that you need to have an architectural approach that is built for that from the very beginning. It's hard to retrofit a system to be able to handle orders to magnitude more complexity and change in pace of change. You need to start from the very beginning. And the belief we have is that you need some form of a realtime streaming architecture. Something that's capable of providing that realtime detection and alerting across a very wide range of things in order to handle the scale and the ephemeral nature of cloud environments. >> Let me ask a question then, because I heard some people say, well, it doesn't matter. 10, 15 minutes to log in to an event is good enough. What would you react to that? (chuckles) What a great example of where it's not good enough? I mean, is it minutes is it's seconds, what are we talking about here? What's the good enough bar right now? >> Yeah, I mean, I think any anybody who has tried to deliver an experience digitally to an end user, if you think you can wait minutes to solve a problem you clearly haven't been paying enough attention. And I think that, I think it almost goes without saying, that the faster you know that you have a problem, the better off you are. And so, when you think about what are the objectives that you have for your service levels or your performance or availability. I think you run out of minutes pretty quickly, if you get to anything like say, three nines So, waiting 15 minutes, maybe would have been acceptable before people were really trying to use your service at scale. But definitely not any more. >> And the latest app requires it. It's super important. I brought that up and tongue in cheek kind of tee that up for you because these streaming analytics, streaming engines are super valuable, and knowing when to use realtime and not also matters. This is where the platforms come in. >> Yes, absolutely. The platform is the thing that enables that. And I think you have to sort of build it from the very beginning with that streaming approach with the ability to do analytics against the streams coming in, in order for you to deliver on this sort of promise of alerts and insights at scale and in realtime. >> All right, final point. I'll give you the last word here. Give a plug for the Splunk observability suite. What is it? Why is it important? Why should people buy it? Why should people adopt it? Why should they upgrade to it? Give the perspective, give the plug. >> Yeah, sure. I appreciate the opportunity. So, I think as we've been out there speaking to customers right over the last year as part of Splunk and before that, I think they've spoken to us a lot about the need for better visibility into their environments. Which are increasingly complex and where they're trying to deliver on the best possible user experience. And to sort of add to that, where they're trying to actually consolidate the tools. We spoke about the sprawl at the beginning. And so, with what we're putting together here with the Splunk observability suite. I'd say we have the industry's most comprehensive and powerful combination of solutions that will help both sort of IT and DevOps teams tackle these new challenges for monitoring and observability that other tools simply can't address. So you're able to eliminate the management complexity by having a single consistent user experience across the metrics and logs and traces, so that you can have seamless monitoring and troubleshooting and investigation. You can create a better user experiences by having that true end to end visibility, all the way from the front end to the backend services, so that you can actually see what kind of impact you're having on users and figure it out within seconds. I think we're also able to help increase developer productivity. As these high performance tools that help the DevOps teams get to a better quality code faster, because they can get immediate feedback on how their coachings are doing with each we would see each release and they're able to operate more efficiently. So, I think there's a very large number of benefits from this approach of providing a single unified toolset that relies on a source of data that's consistent across it but then has the sort of particular tools that different users need for what they care about. Whether you're the front end developer, needing to understand the user experience, whether you're backend service owner wanting to see how your service relates to others, whether you're owning the infrastructure, and needs to see, is it actually providing what the services are running on it need. >> Well, Patrick, great to see you. And I just want to say, congratulations has been following your work, going back in the industry specifically with SignalFx, you guys were really early and seeing the value of observability before it was a category. And so how has more often so relevant as you guys had saw it. So, congratulations and keep up the great work. We'll keep a competition's open. Thanks for coming on. >> Great, thanks so much, John. Great talking to you. >> All right, this is theCube, Leading with observability, it's a series, check it out. We have a multiple talk tracks. Check out the Splunk's a series, Leading with observability. I'm John Furrier with theCube. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(upbeat introductory music) >> Presenter: From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is theCUBE CONVERSATION. >> Hi everyone, welcome to this special CUBE CONVERSATION I'm John Furrier, Host of theCUBE here in Palo Alto, California in our studios, we have a remote guest here talking about cybersecurity and all the industry trends and the recent news and announcements around Fortinet with John Madison CMO and Executive Vice President of products at Fortinet John, great to see you, welcome back to theCUBE. Great to have you back for some commentary around what's going on in the trends and your recent news. So thanks for coming on. >> Thanks John, nice to see you again. >> So you guys had earnings, congratulations again another successful results, you guys are doing well. Cyber is super important and that's the top conversation, cloud computing, cloud native, we're living in a pandemic. New things are exposed. Clearly the environment has changed in the past four months in a major, major way. So a lot of demand, a lot of needs out there from customers. So you guys had some earnings and you also have an update on your Fortinet OS67.0 platform with major updates. Let's quickly hit the news real quick. What's the hot topic? >> Yeah, well you're right. Things have accelerated in some ways in this cybersecurity world and we had the recent solar winds incident that's also made people look really, really closely at their cyber security strategy and architecture. We announced our results yesterday for Q4. For Q4 we had over 20% product growth which is the key, of course, the future growth. We also, for the full year in 2020 past 3 billion in billings for the first time for the company. And we're really proud of that. We're proud for a lot of reasons with our people and our team, but also another company that goes and makes large acquisitions to boost revenue and billings growth. We've done it predominantly organically over the last 20 years. And so we're very proud of our achievement and obviously a big thank you to our partners, our employees, and our customers. >> We also have been covering you guys for many, many years. Congratulations, well deserved good products win the long game, as we say on theCUBE, and that's a great Testament, but now more than ever I really want to get your thoughts because everyone that I talked to is really kind of sitting back saying, "Wow, look what's happened in the past three, six months in particular, a lot of sea change in both on the technical landscape, the intersection with society obviously with cyber, you mentioned solar winds that's been kind of hanging around. More data's coming out about how pervasive that was and how native it was for many months. So what's out there, we don't even know what's next. So this is causing a lot of people to take pause and reevaluate their environment. Can you share your perspective and how Fortinet sees this playing out and how that you are advising your customers? >> Yeah, well, leaving compliance and regulatory to one side for now because that's also a driver cybersecurity and focus on the two main drivers. One is the threat landscape, and I hinted a bit around that supply chain attack which affects a lot of people in solar winds incident. They got hold or got onto a device that has privileged access across a lot of servers and applications. And that's exactly what they wanted to get to. So state-sponsored ABTs, there's still volume out there. We still see now ransomware doubling every six months but that's very scary. The threat landscape around state sponsored. Now, the other driver of cybersecurity is the infrastructure. And whether that be end point. So as you know people are working from home as I am for the last eight months. So there's a on and off network, end point kind of a zero trust architecture there that people are looking towards. On the network side, we've seen these edges develop. And so whether it be the WAN edge, LANedge, Cloud Edge, data center edge even OT edge, those need protecting. So that's a big challenge for customers. And then also on the cloud side where the applications have moved to cloud, but different types of cloud, multi-cloud I've even seen building cloud recently. So that's a very adaptive area. So challenging for the customer in the terms of the threats and weaponized threats as well as the ability to cover all the different parts of the attack surface going forward. >> It's interesting, we've been living in a generation in the technology business around, you just get a tool for that. Every hammer looks for a nail, that's the expression. Now more than ever when you have this no perimeter environment, which we've been talking about for many years, that's not new. What is new is that everyone's now thinking about architectural systems approach to this and thinking systematically around the platform of what their business is. So in your announcement that you guys just released for OS67.0, there's really some meat on the bone there. You have the secure access, edge SASE and then the endpoint protection which are defined categories by the analyst. But those are the areas that are super hot. Can you translate that into the architectural equation because you and I were talking before we came on camera around how it's not just one thing there's multiple layers to this. Could you break that out for us please? >> Yeah. If you look at historically and I'm now coming up to my 20th year in cybersecurity. Before Fortinet I worked for an end point company. If you go back a while and I can, between 2000, 2010, the Endpoint Vendors were the the big cybersecurity players because Endpoint was where the data was and everything else. And then over the last 10 years the network security vendors, the next gen firewalls have been the most important vendors out there. And it's also reflected in revenues and market cap and everything else. What we're going to see over the next 10 years is the platform. And that platform can't be just an endpoint platform. It can't be just a network security platform or just the cloud platform, because you only, you're only seeing and defending and protecting a part of the overall we call digital experience. Whether it be a device in the factory, whether it be a person dialing in from somewhere or connecting from somewhere through the network and through to the applications you've got to measure that digital experience. And so that's going to be very important to be able to provide a platform that sits across all your devices users, across your whole network including new networks like 5G and across the applications and in the cloud. So the platform to us extends across all those areas. We've been building that platform on what we call our FortiOS operating system. The latest release is 7.0, which released yesterday. It obviously upgrades and extends all parts of the platform but we did major parts of the release yesterday were around SASE, which of course is the CloudEdge. So we're adding that CloudEdge to our component. We did acquire a company Opaque Networks a few months ago that's now we've integrated that technology. And then just as importantly on the access side, a zero trust network access capability for giving access per application. In fact, again, with this, I've talked a bit about in the past about all these Gartner acronyms I don't think zero trust network access is the right wording for it. It should be application access, because that's all we are going to move to. Application specific access versus just getting on the network and getting access to everything. But something that gives you context. So those are the two big things, but there's 300 plus new features across networking end point in cloud across management, inside the resource. It's a major release for us. And it gives us our customers the capability to really protect that attack surface from the end point to the cloud. >> Yeah, there's a lot of meat in there, from that release, I've got to say. but it's basically you're saying devices and users have access. That's been around. There's been tools for that. You hire people, you get some tools. Network access, it's been around. It's getting evolving. Now apps in the cloud, cloud native is a hot area. And people that I talk to, I want to get your reaction to this comment that I hear from people and customers and CXOs and developers. "Hey, we bought a tool for that. We hired a bunch of people. They mainly left, or the environment changed. We bought another tool. And then we bought a tool for that. We bought a tool for that." And then you have this kind of tool shed mentality, where they have tools that don't even have people to run them. So you have this problem there kind of tools need to be upgraded. And then you have this hot trend of observability on the app side, where now you have new data coming in on the application side, those are new tools. You got all kinds of stuff and competing for that. How do you talk to that customer? Because this is what the customer hears all this noise, all this action. They need to have it. They got to have the staff, they got to be trained up. What's going on there? What's your reaction to that? And how do you talk to customers who have this problem? Well, it's a big problem for them. Because, and by the way when I speak to a lot of customers about cloud they don't go to cloud because it's cheaper. It's not, it's actually more expensive. But they go to cloud to give them more agility because they want flexibility in the way they deploy applications as they go forward. And again, this pandemic has made a lot of companies realize they need to be more flexible in the way they deploy IT resources and faster in the way they bring up new services and applications. And so, but there's quite a few elements I say of cybersecurity and networking, which to me and to us are just features. You shouldn't be buying 40 different networking and cybersecurity vendors. You just can't staff and maintain that. And so we do see some things consolidated and converging into a single platform. We're a leader in the magic quadrant for SD WAN or a leader for network security or a visionary in WIFI. And many of the times in each of those magic quadrants, it's a different vendor or if it's the same vendor it's a different platform. For us it's the same platform in each one. And we pride ourselves in building not only best of breed capabilities, but also it's the same platform same management system, same API. And that gives the customer some capabilities in trying to manage that. What we say to customers is not a question of going from 40 vendors down to one That's no good, but go from 40 vendors down to maybe seven or eight platforms but make sure those platforms can inter-operate. They can share policy, and they can share threat intelligence. And that's why customers are looking to more of an architectural approach to cybersecurity but also they feel cybersecurity and networking are starting to converge at the same time. >> One of the biggest stories we're covering these days in 2021 besides the pandemic and how people are going to come out with a growth strategy that's secure, trusted and scalable, is the rise of the new executive in business in the enterprise where they're more tech savvy, right? You see executives like Satya and Intel. Intel, rise with the CEO of Microsoft. Andy Jassy rise up to the CEO of Amazon and you're seeing lawmakers in DC become more techie, less lawyer-oriented. So you seeing the rise of a business techie person. And I think this speaks to this holistic fabric philosophy you guys have as you talk to customers, when they look at the business impact of cybersecurity, for instance you mentioned solar winds earlier. I mean, these are deadly company killing events. This is real. So it's not just an IT problem. It's a business problem. How do you guys talk to customers, obviously that you have the security fabric and you're stitching things together? What's the conversation when you talk to customers like that? >> One interesting thing I've noticed, and I do quite a lot of customer calls each week, executive briefings and pretty early on, I noticed that both the infrastructure networking with the CIO team and the cyber security the CSO teams run on the same video call and that's got more and more as we've gone on. And I think what companies have realized is that if they want to move fast, they can't have these silos or this layering of capabilities. Then when they build something they needed to build it securely from day one and have that as a joint team. And so I don't think the teams are not merged but they're definitely working more closely. And I think the responsibility of reporting back into the board level gain is not just, it's just an IT project. Oh, by the way, we've got a security project. It's the same project. And I think that's again, points to this convergence of networking and security. >> Yeah. The silos got to be broken down. That's been a theme that's been more highlighted more than ever the benefits and the consequences of doing it or not doing it are clear to people especially at all levels of the corporation and tech. That brings up my favorite conversation. I always ask you whenever you're back on theCUBE giving me an update on what's going on with Fortinet I got to ask you how it's going with data, because data again is the consistent theme we always talk about, how we're exposing that data, how we're protecting that data, the role of data as people continue to get more data and figure out how to use machine learning how to use AI, how to democratize it all kinds of things are happening around data. What's the latest in your opinion? >> Yeah, I think there's progress, but I always say there's progress on both sides. The cyber criminals, big AI networks and machine learning just to counter what the cyber security companies are doing. I think right now we're processing hundreds of billions of events on a weekly basis. We've got the largest install base of network security out there over 500,000 customers. And so processing that event, it's going well in that we're able to determine really quickly for specific threat vectors in specific geographies that this battle good. It's about a good file. It's about a good URL. It's a vulnerability that's associated with Stevia. So we're able to kind of do use machine learning and volume against a specific application to get a good result. The key going forward for us, and I think for the whole industry is using the AI to start to discover campaigns in the wild like the solar winds ones, which is going on without anybody knowing. And that takes a lot of compute, takes a lot of threat intelligence and the AI piece needs to understand the relationship between the different elements of threat vectors, the command and controls and everything else to get you that result. I do think a couple of things. One is the cybersecurity industry, and I've said this before on this broadcast is are not walking together as they should. And sharing this threat intelligence across the industry. As soon as they find something, I actually applaud Microsoft on the solar wind side, they got information out really quickly and did well. And so we did the same. I think the industry needs to do more of that more proactively. And then I do think that, again, that I see a lot of companies cybersecurity companies claim a lot of things without any evidence that it works whatsoever. >> The world's got to call them out the consequences of not having, things work as they're advertised and or sharing them, your point about sharing. There should be some recognition for folks that are actually being fast on the sharing side. It's not like... We need our own militia against the bad guys. That's what's kind of going on here. So great stuff. I got to get your thoughts on the edge real quick. I know we talked about it briefly. You broke it down to three categories device users, network, and then apps in the cloud. The hottest topic on our recent CUBE on cloud editorial virtual event we had was the edge. And edge being industrial edge. And also, just the edge of the network with humans and users and devices. How are you seeing the current situation out there? A lot of hype, obviously the reality of that, that we're in a distributed network, the internet and the web and the cloud cloud natives coming. What's Fortinet's thoughts? What's your thoughts on how the edge is evolving and what people should pay attention to when they look at as they're architecturally planning for building out and managing and securing the edge? >> Given this a zero trust conversation on users and devices and given that people are familiar with the cloud and how they're going to use cloud. I think the network is becoming a really important very important area. And some people say, "Oh, don't worry about the network, just go to the cloud." The network is very important in providing that digital experience, but what's happening with the network is it's being stretched. It's being extended into factories. It's opening up on the winning side. You've got people now working from home. You've got that edge that used to be just the data center edge is now CloudEdge and SAS edge. And so you have to pay close attention to those edges. Now what you can't do is say, "Oh, I know we've got all those edges there. Let me overlay some security on each edge," because it's going to be different the way you deploy that in on a wifi device versus a CloudEdge. And so what you need to look towards is convergence of a capability either of the CloudEdge or the WAN edge or the LTE edge, it's got to be converged networking, and security. Otherwise it's too operationally inefficient, too complex to do. And so I think this is a really important subject and area for customers because as I said at the beginning, it provides that digital, we acquired a company called (indistinct) a few months ago, which actually focuses on the digital experience monitoring marketplace. What are users actually going through in terms of availability and quality and performance all the way from their device, all the way back into the application? I think that's very important. And the network edges have to be secured, where you can only do it through a converged solution. >> Yeah, that's a great point Architecturally, you might have a good technology or product look on paper but the complexity is the vulnerability. That's a really, really great point. John always great to have you on. Thanks for coming on, sharing the update. Before we end, I'll give you a quick minute to plug the news you had. Quickly put a plug in for the release you guys just put out around the new FortiOS 7.0 the features. What's the most important point about that release? Share, take a minute to explain. >> Yeah. FortiOS 7.0 is our big release our operating system is big news because it allows us FortiOS to sit at any edge across the network, whether it would be the one edge CloudEdge, data center edge. We've extended it into the CloudEdge with SASE in this release. We're also bringing in zero trust network access capabilities but overall it includes 300 features across the network, Endpoint in cloud. So a very important release for us and our customers and partners. >> John, great to have you on theCUBE again and get the news. You guys doing a great job, congratulations on your earnings but more importantly, congratulations on the product success and how you guys are thinking about it as a platform. That's what customers want. And you guys are continuing to do a great job there and congratulations from the news. Thanks for coming on. >> Thanks Jim. >> Again, John Furrier here inside theCUBE for CUBE Conversation getting the update on Fortinet and cybersecurity. Look for our cybersecurity coverage on SiliconANGLE.com. And of course, theCUBE's coverage continuing to talk to the thought leaders and the people making things happen, securing our networks and our cloud and deploying cloud native applications. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Narrator: From the CUBE studios in Palo Alto, in Boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is theCUBE Conversation. >> Well, there's no question these days that in the world of business, it's all about data. Data is the king. How you harvest data, how you organize your data, how you distribute your data, how you secure your data, all very important questions. And certainly a leader in the data replication business is HVR. We're joined now by their CEO, Anthony Brooks-Williams, and by Diwakar Goel, who is the Global Chief Data Officer at GE. We're going to talk about, you guessed it, data. Gentlemen, thanks for being with us. Good to have you here on theCUBE Conversation. >> Thank you. Thanks, John. >> Yeah, well, listen, >> Thanks, John. >> first off, let's just characterize the relationship between the two companies, between GE and HVR. Maybe Diwakar, let's take us back to how you got to HVR, if you will and maybe a little bit about the evolution of that relationship, where it's gone from day one. >> No, absolutely. It's now actually a long time back. It's almost five and a half years back, that we started working with Anthony. And honestly it was our early days of big data. We all had big, different kind of data warehousing platforms, but we were transitioning into the big data ecosystem and we needed a partner that could help us to get more of the real-time data. And that's when we started working with Anthony. And I would say, John, over the years, you know we have learned a lot and our partnership has grown a lot. And it's grown based on the needs. When we started, honestly just being able to replicate a lot sources and to give you context like GBG, we have the fifth largest Oracle ERP. We have the seventh largest SAP ERP. They just, just by the nature of just getting those systems in was a challenge. And we had to work through different, different solutions because some of the normal ones wouldn't work. As we got matured, and we started using data over the last two, three years, specifically, we had different challenges. The challenges was like, you know is the data completely accurate? Are we losing and dropping some data? When you're bringing three billion, five billion rows of data, every five to six hours, even if you've dropped 1% you've lost like a huge set of insights, right? So that's when you started working with Anthony more around like the nuances as to, you know what could be causing us to lose some data, or duplicate some datasets, right? And I think our partnership's been very good, because some of our use cases have been unique and we've continuously pushed Anthony and the team to deliver that. With the light of, you know these use cases are not unique, in some cases we were just ahead, just by the nature of what we were handling. >> Okay. Anthony, about then the HVR approach, Diwakar, just took us through somewhat higher level of how this relationship has evolved. It's started with big data, now, it's gone (mumbles) in terms of even fine tuning the accuracy, that's so important. Latency is obviously a huge topic too from your side of the fence. But how do you address it then? Let's take GE for example, in terms of understanding their business, learning their business, their capabilities, maybe where their holes are, you know where their weaknesses were, and showing that up. How did you approach that from the HVR side? >> Yeah. Do you mean wanting back a few years? I mean, obviously it starts, you get in there, you find an initial use case and that was moving data into a certain data warehouse platform, whether it be around analytics or reporting such as Diwakar mentioned. And that's, I mean, most commonly what we see from a lot of customers. It's, the typical use case is real-time analytics, and moving the data to an area for consolidated reporting. It's either most (indistinct) in these times, it's in the cloud. But GE you know, where that's evolved and GE are a top customer for us. We work across many of their business units of their different BUS. GE had another arm Predix, which is the industrial IOT platform that actually OEM must as well for a solution they sell to other companies in the space. But where we've worked with GE is, you know the ability one, just to support the scale, the complexity, the volume of data, many different sources systems, many different BUS, whether it be, you know, their aviation division or our divisions, or those types, to sending that data across. And the difference being as well where we've really pushed us and Diwakar and team pushed us is around the accuracy to the exact point that Diwakar mentions. This study is typically financial data. This is data that they run their business off. This is data that the executing CEOs get dashboards on a daily basis. It can't be wrong. You may not only do businesses these days, you want to make decisions on the freshest data that they can, and specifically over the last year, because that's a matter about survival. Not only is it about winning, it's about survival and doing business in the most cost-effective way. But then that type of data, that we're moving, the financial data, the financial data lags we built for GE that is capturing this out of SAP systems, where we have some other features benefits, you know that's where that really pushed us around the accuracy. And that's whereby you mean, you can't really, these, you can't ever, but especially these days, have a typical just customer tab vendor approach. It has to be a partnership. And that was one other thing Diwakar and I spoke a while ago. It was about, how do we really push and develop a partnership between the two companies, between the two organizations? And that's key. And that's where we've been pushed. And there's much new things we're working on for them based on where they are going as a business, whether it be different sources, different targets. And so that's where it's worked out well for both companies. >> So Diwakar, about the margin of error then, in terms of accuracy, 'cause I'm hearing from Anthony that this is something you really pushed them on, right? You know, and 96, 97%, doesn't cut it, right? I mean, you can't be that close. It's got to be spot on. At what point in your data journey, if you will, did it come to roost that the accuracy, you know had to improve or, you know you needed a solution that would get you where you needed to operate your various businesses? >> I think John, it basically stems down to a broader question. You know, what are you using the data for? You know, a lot of us, when we're starting this journey we want to use the data for a lot of analytical use cases. And that basically means you want to look at a broad pattern and say, okay, you know what, do I have a significant amount of inventory sitting on one plant? Or, you know, is there a bigger problem with how I'm negotiating with a vendor, and I want to change that? And for those use cases, you know getting good enough data gives you an indicator as to how do you want to work with them, right? But when you want to take your data to a far more fidelity and more critical processes, whether, you know you're trying to capture from an airplane, the latest signal, and if you had five more signal, perhaps you solve the mystery of the Malaysian Med Sync plan, or when you're trying to solve and report on your financials, right? Then the fidelity and the accuracy of data has to be spot on. And what you realize is, you know you unlock a certain set of value with analytical use cases. But if you truly want to unlock what can be done with big data, you have to go at the operational level, you have to run your business using the data real-time. It's not about like, you know, in hindsight, how can I do things better? If I want to make real-time decisions on, you know, how, what I need to make right now, what's my healthcare indicator suggesting, how do I change the dosage for a customer or a patient, right? It has to be very operational. It has to be very accurate. And that margin of error then almost becomes zero, because you are dealing with things. If you go wrong you can cost lives, right? So that's where we are. And I think honestly being able to solve that problem has now opened up a massive door of what all we can do with data. >> Yeah. Yeah, man. I think I would just build on that as well. I mean, one, it's about us as a company. We are in the data business, obviously. Sources and targets. I mean that's the table stakes stuff. What do we support? It's our ability to bridge these modern environments and the legacy environments, that we do. And you see that across all organizations. A lot of their data source sits in these legacy top environments, but that will transition to other either target systems or the new world ones that we see, more modern bleeding edge environments. So we have to support those but they're not the same time. It's building on the performance, the accuracy of the total product, versus just being able to connect the data. And that's where we get driven down the path with companies like GE, with Diwakar. And they've pushed us. But it's really bridging those environments. >> You know, it also seems like with regard to data that you look at this almost like a verb tense, what happened, what is happening, what will happen, right? So in looking at it to that person, Diwakar, if you will, in terms of the kind of information that you can glean from this vast repository of data as opposed to, you know, what did happen, what's going on right now, and then what can we make happen down the road? Where does HVR factor into that for you in terms of not only, you know, making those, having those kinds of insights, but also making sure that the right people within your organization have access to the information that they need. And maybe just, they only need. >> No, you're right, John. It's funny, you're using a different analogy but I keep referring to as taillights versus headlights, right? Gone are the days you can refer back as to what's happening. You need to just be able to look forward, right? And I think real-time data too is no longer a question or believe, it's a necessity. And I think one of the things we often miss out is real-time data is actually a very collaborative piece of how it brings the various operators together. Because in the past, if you think, if you just go a little bit old school, people will go and do their job. And then they will come back and submit what they did, right? And then you will accumulate what everybody did and make sense out of it. Now, as people are doing things live, you are hearing about it. So for example, if I am issuing payments across different, different places I need to know how much balance I need to keep in the bank, it's the simplest example, right? Now I can keep the math, I can always stack my bank with a ton of money, then I'm losing money because now I'm blocking my money. And especially now, if you think about GE which has 6,000 bank account. If I keep stacking it, I will practically go bankrupt, right? So if I have an inference of what's happening every time a payment card issued by anybody, I am knowing it real-time. It allows me to adjust for optimal liquidity. As simple as it sounds, it saves you a hundred billion dollars if you do it right, in a year, right? So I think it is just fundamentally changes. We need to think about real-time data is no longer, it's just how you need to operate. It's no longer an option. >> Yeah. You may, we see, what we've seen as posture, we were fortunate. We had a great 2020. Just under a hundred percent year-over-year growth. Why? It's about the immediacy of data, so that they can act accordingly. You mean these days, it's table stakes. You mean, it's about winning and, or just surviving compared to, you know, years ago when day old data, week old data, that was okay. You mean, then largely these legacy type (mumbles) technologies, well it was fine. It's not anymore. You mean exactly what Diwakar was saying. It's table stakes. It's just what, that's what it is. >> And I think John, in fact, I see actually it's getting further pushed out, right? Because what happens is I get real-time data from HVR but then I'm actually doing some stuff to get real-time insights after that. And there is a lag from that time to when I'm actually generating insights on which I'm acting on. Now, there is more and more of a need that how do I even shorten that cycle time, right? I actually, from it, we are getting, not only data when it's getting refresh, I actually get signals when I need to add something. So I think in fact, the need of the future is going to be also far more event-driven, where every time something happens that I need to act on, how can technologies like HVR even help you with understanding those? >> Anthony: Yes. >> Anthony, what does scale do to all this? Diwakar touched on it briefly about accuracy and all of a sudden, if you know, if you have a, if you've got a, you know a small discrepancy on a small dataset, no big deal, right? But all of a sudden, if there are issues down the road and you're talking about, you know, millions and millions and millions of inputs, now we've got a problem. So just in terms of scale and with an operation the size of GE, what kind of impacts does that have? >> Yeah. Massive. You mean, it's part of the reason why we went, why we've been successful. We have the ability to scale very well from this highly distributed architecture that we have. And so that's what's been, you know, fortunate for us over the last year, as we know. What does the stat mean? 90% of the world's data was generated over the last two years or something like that. And that just feeds into more, human scale is key. Not only complexity at scale is a key thing, and that's where we've been fortunate to set ourselves apart on that space. I mean we, GE push us and challenge us on a daily basis. The same we do with another company, the biggest online e-commerce platform, massive scale, massive scale. Then that's, we get pushed the whole time and get pushed to improve all the time. But fortunately we have a very good solution that fits into that, but it's just, and I think it just doesn't get, worse is the wrong word. It's just, it's going to continue to grow. The problem is not going away. You know, the volumes are going to increase massively. >> So Diwakar, if I could, before we wrap up here, I'm just curious from your, if you put on your forward-thinking glasses right now, in terms of the data capabilities that HVR has provided you, are they driving you to different kinds of horizons in terms of your business strategy or are your business strategies driving the data solutions that you need? I mean, which way is it right now in terms of how you are going to expand your services down the road? >> It's an interesting question. I think, and Anthony keep correcting me on this one, but today, you know because if you think about big data solutions, right? They were largely designed for a different world historically. They were designed for our IOT parametric set of data sets in different kind of world. So there was a big catch up that a lot of these companies had to do to make it relevant even for the other relational data sets, transactional data sets and everything else, right? So a big part of what I feel like Anthony and other companies have been focusing on is really making this relevant for that world. And I feel like companies like HVR are now absolutely there. And as they are there they are now starting to think about solving or I would say focusing on people who are early in their stage, and how can they get them up and quick, you know, efficient early, because that's a lot of the challenges, right? So I would say, I don't know if Anthony's focuses me in, right? So it should not be me, but it's, I think like where they're going, for example like how do they connect with all the different cloud vendors? So when a company wants to come live and if they're using data from, you know the HR Workday solution or Concord Travel solution, they can just come pitch. We are plug and play. And say, okay, enable me data from all of these and it's there. Today what took us six months to get there, right? So I think rightly so, I think Anthony and the team are focusing on that. And I think we have been partnering on with Anthony more, I would say, perhaps pushing a little more on you know, getting not only accurate data but also now on the paradigm of compliant data. Because I think what you're going to also start seeing is as companies, especially in like different kind of industries, like financial, healthcare and others, they would need data certification also of various kinds. And that would require each of these tool to meet compliance standards that were very, they were not designed for again, right? So I think that's a different paradigm, that again Anthony and the team are really doing great in helping us get there. >> Yeah. I think there's, that was good Diwakar. There's quite a bit to unpack there, you know. With companies such as GE, we've been on a journey for many years. And so that's why we deployed across the enterprise. And let's start off with, I have this source system, I'll move my data into their target system. These targets systems you know, become more frequently either data lakes or environments that were on-premise to running in the cloud, to newer platforms that are built for the cloud, like we've seen the uptake in companies like Snowflake and those types. And you mean, we see this from you know big query from Google and those type of environments. So we see those. And that's things we've got to support along the way as well. But then at the same time, more and more data starts getting generated in your non-traditional trial platforms. I mean, cloud-based applications and those things which we then support and build into this whole framework. But at the same time to what Diwakar was saying, the eyes, you know, the legal requirements, the regulator requirements on the type of data that is now being used. Before you would never typically have years ago companies moving their most valuable or their financial data into these cloud-based type environments. Well, they are today. It happens. And so with that comes a whole bunch of regulation in security. And we've certainly seen particularly this last year the uptake in when these transactions have another level of scrutiny when you're bringing in new products into these environments. So they go through, you know, basically the security and the legal requirements are a lot longer and more depth than they used to be. And that's just the typical of the areas that they're deploying these technologies in as well, and where you're taking some technologies that weren't necessarily built for the modern world that they are now adopt in the modern world. So it's quite complex and a lot to unpack there, but it's, you've got to be on top of all of that. But that's where you then work with your top customers, like at GE, that future roadmap, that feeds where one, you obviously make a decision and you go, this is where we believe the market's going, and these are the things we need to go, we know we need to go support, no matter that no customer has asked us for it yet. But the majority of it is still where customers that are pushing, bleeding edge, that are pushing you as well, and that feeds the roadmap. And, you know, there's a number of new profile platforms GE even pushed us to go support and features that Diwakar and the team have pushed us around accuracy and security and those types of things. So it's an all encompassing approach to it. >> John, we could like-- >> Actually, I think we've set up an entirely new CUBE Conversation we're going to have down the road, I think. >> Yeah. (laughing) >> Hey, gentlemen, thank you for the time. I certainly appreciate it. Really enjoyed it. And I wish you both a very happy and importantly, a healthy 2021. >> Great. >> Thank you both. Appreciate your time. >> Thank you. >> Thanks, John. >> Thank you. >> Thanks, Anthony. Bye bye. >> Bye bye. (upbeat music)

(bright upbeat music) >> Announcer: From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is theCUBE Conversation. >> Well happy New Year, one and all welcome to 2021 in Cube Conversation continuing our ongoing series. I hope your New Year is off to a great start. I know that the end of 2020 was a very good one for Ivanti. And Jim Schaper, the CEO is going to join us to talk about that as is Nayaki Nayyar, or rather the EVP and the Chief Product Officer. So Nayaki and Jim, good to have you here with you on theCUBE and Happy New Year to you. >> Thank you, John. Happy New Year to you. 2020, I think for a lot of us couldn't get out of here quick enough. Although we had some great things happen to our company at the very end of the year. So anxious to talk to you about it and we appreciate the opportunity. >> You bet. So we're talking about two major acquisitions that you made that both closed near the end of the year back in December, not too long ago. One with Pulse Secure, the other with MobileIron. Two companies that provide you with additional expertise in terms of mobile security and the enterprise security space. And so Jim, if you would, let's first talk about just for the big picture, the acquisitions that were made and what those moves will do for you going forward. >> Okay, great, John. We closed both acquisitions interestingly enough, on December 2nd. We've been fortunate to have them part of our company now for about the last 30 days. One of the things that we made a decision on a number of months ago was that we had a real opportunity in the markets that we serve to really build our business more quickly through a series of acquisitions that strategically made sense for us, our investors and more importantly our customers. And that really is why we chose MobileIron and Pulse, for different reasons but nonetheless all very consistent with our longterm strategy of securing the end points on every network, in every location around the world. And so consequently, when you think about it and we've all witnessed here over the last 30 days or so, all of the security breaches, all of the things that go along with that, and our real focus is ensuring that every company and every individual on their network, outside their firewall, inside their firewall, on any device is secure. And so with these two particular acquisitions, in addition to the assets that we already had as a part of Ivanti, really puts us in a competitively advantaged position to deliver to the edge, and Nayaki will talk about this. The ability to secure those devices and ensure that they're secure from phishing expeditions or breaches or all of those kinds of things. So these two particular acquisitions really puts us on the map and puts us in a leadership position in the security market. So we're thrilled to have both of them. >> Before I go off to Nayaki, I want to follow with the point that you've made Jim talking about security breaches. We're all well aware. You know, the news from what we've been hearing out from the federal level about the state actors and the kind of these infiltrations of major US systems if not international systems. Some Interpol data, I read 207 some odd percent increase in breaches just in the post COVID time or in the COVID time, the past year. That gets your attention, does it not? And what does that say to you about the aggressive nature of these kinds of activities? >> Well, that they're getting more sophisticated every day and they're getting more aggressive. I think one of the most frightening conversations I had was a briefing with our chief security officer about how many attempted breaches of our network and our systems that he sees every single day. And we're able to identify what foreign actors are really trying to penetrate our systems or what are they trying to do. But the one thing I will leave you with is they're becoming much more sophisticated, whether you're inside the firewall or whether you're on your iPhone as an extension of the network, there the level of sophistication is startling. And unfortunately in many cases, as evidenced by the recent breaches, you don't even know you've had a breach for could be months, weeks, days. And so what damage is done. And so as we look forward, and as Nayaki kind of walks you through our product strategy, what you're going to hear a lot of is how do we self protect? How do we self-learn the devices at the edge, on the end of the networks, such that they can recognize foreign actors or any breach capability that somebody is trying to employ? And so, yeah, it's frightening how sophisticated and how frequent they have become. >> I think the one thing that really struck me as I read about the breaches was not so much the damage that has been done, but the damage that could be done prospectively and about which we have no idea. You don't know, it's like somebody lurking in your closet and they're going to stay there for a couple of months and wait for the time that maybe your guard is even more down. So I was, that's what shocks me. And they Nayaki, let's talk about your strategy then. You picked up obviously a couple of companies, one in the, kind of the enterprise IT space. Now the one in the VPN space, add into your already extensive portfolio. So I imagine from your office, wearing the hat of the chief product officer, you're just to look in your chops right now. You've got a lot more resources at your disposal. >> Yeah, we are very very busy John, but to Jim's point, one of the trends we are seeing in the market as we enter into the post COVID era, where everyone is working from anywhere, be it from home, be it from office, while on the move, every organization, every enterprise is struggling with this. What we call this explosive growth of devices. Devices being mobile devices, client-based devices, IoT devices, the data that is being generated from these devices, and to your point, the cybersecurity threats. It is predicted that there has been 30000% increase in the cybersecurity threats that are being targeted primarily at the remote workers. So you can imagine whether it's phishing attacks, malware attacks, I mean just an explosive growth of devices, data, cybersecurity attacks at the remote workers. So organizations need automation to be able to address this growth and this complexity which is where Ivanti's focus in discovering all the devices and managing those devices. So as we bring the MobileIron portfolio and Ivanti's portfolio together, now we can help our customers manage every type of devices be it Windows devices, Mac devices, Linux, iOS, Android devices, and secure those devices. The zero trust access that users need, the remote users need, all the way from cloud access to the endpoint is what the strength of both MobileIron and Pulse brings to our entire portfolio holistically. So we are truly excited for our customers. Now they can leverage our entire end to end stack to discover, manage secure and service all those devices that they now have to service for their employees. >> Explain to me, or just walk me through zero trust in terms of how you define that. I've read about trust nothing, verify everything, those kinds of explanations. But if you would, from your perspective, what does zero trust encompass, not only on your side, but on your client's side? Because you want to give them tools to do things for themselves to self heal and self serve and those kinds of things. >> So, zero trust is you don't trust anything. You validate and certify everything. So the access users have on your network, the access they have on the mobile devices, the applications they are accessing, the data that they are accessing. So being able to validate every access that they have when they come into your network is what the whole zero trust access really means. So, the combination of Ivanti's portfolio and also Pulse that zero trust access all the way from as users are accessing that network data, cloud data, endpoint data, is where our entire zero trust access truly differentiates. And as we bring that with our UEM portfolio with the MobileIron, there is no other vendor in the market that has that holistic offering, internal offering. >> I'm sorry, go ahead, please. >> It's interesting, John, you talk about timing is everything, right? And when we began discussions with MobileIron, it was right before COVID hit. And we had a great level of expertise inside the pre-acquisition of Ivanti to be able to secure the end points at the desktop level. But we struggled a bit with having all of the capabilities that we needed to manage mobile devices and tablets and basically anything that is attached to the network. That's what they really brought to us. And having done a number of acquisitions historically in my career, this was probably the easiest integration that we had simply because we did what they didn't do and they did what we didn't do. And then they brought some additional technologies. But what's really changed in the environment because of this work from home or work from anywhere as as we like to articulate it, is you've got multiple environments that you've got to manage. It isn't just, what's on the end of the VPN, the network, it's what's on the end points of the cloud. What kind of cloud are you running? You're running a public cloud, you're running a private cloud. Is it a hybrid environment? And so the ability to and the need to be able to do that is pretty significant. And so that's one of the real advantages that both the Pulse as well as the MobileIron acquisitions really brought to the combined offering from a product standpoint. >> Yeah, I'd like to follow up on that then, just because the cloud environment provides so many benefits, obviously, but it also provides this huge layer of complexity that comes on top of all this because you just talked about it. You can have public, you can have hybrid cloud, you can have on-prem, whatever, right? You have all these options. And yet you, Ivanti, are having to provide security on multiple levels and multiple platforms or multiple environments. And how much more complex or challenging is your mission now because of consumer demand and the capabilities the technology is providing your clients. >> Well, it's certainly more complex and Nayaki is better equipped to probably talk in detail about this. But if you just take a step back and think about it, you think about internet of things, right? I used to have a thermostat. And that thermostat control was controlled by the thermostat on the wall. Now everything is on WiFi. If I've got a problem, I had a a problem with a streaming music capability which infected other parts of my home network. And so everything is, that's just one example of how complicated and how wired everything is really become. Except when it comes to the mobile devices, which are still always remote. You've always got it with you. I don't what it was like for you, John, but you know, historically I've used my phone on email, texts and phone calls. Now it's actually a business tool. But it's a remote business tool that you still have to secure, you still have to manage and you still have to find an identify on the end of the network. That's where we really come into play. Nayaki, anything you want to add to that? >> Yeah, so, to Jim's point, John, and to your question also, as customers have what we call the multi-cloud offering. There are public clouds, private clouds, on-prem data centers, devices on the edge, and as you extend into the IOT world, being able to provide that seamless access, this is a zero trust access all the way from the cloud applications to the applications that are running on-prem, in your data centers and also the applications that are running on your devices and the IoT applications, is what that entire end to end zero trust access, is where our competitive strength resides with Pulse coming into our portfolio. Before Ivanti didn't have this. We were primarily a patch management vendor in the security space, but now we truly extend beyond that patch to this end to end access all the way from cloud to edge is what we call. And then when we combine that with our UEM portfolio in our endpoint management with MobileIron and also service management, that convergence of positive three pillars is where we truly differentiate and compete and win in the market. >> Nayaki, how does internet of things factor into this? Cause I look at sensor technology, I'm just thinking about all the billions of what you have now, right? With whether it's farming or agricultural inputs, business inputs, meteorological, or whatever. I'm sure, you're considering this as well as part of a major play of yours in terms of providing IoT security. How more proliferated is that now and how much of that is kind of in your concern zone you might say? >> Yeah, absolutely. So, just taking these trends we have in managing the end points, we will extend that into the IoT world also. John, when we say IoT world, in an industry where the devices are like healthcare devices. So, stay tuned, in January release we'll be releasing how we will be discovering managing and securing for the healthcare devices like Siemens devices, Bayer devices, Canon devices. So, you're spot on how we can leverage the strength we have in managing end points. Also IoT devices, that same capabilities that we can bring to each of the industry verticals. Now we're not trying to solve the entire vertical market but certain industry verticals where we have a strong footprint. Healthcare is a strong footprint for us. Telcos is a strong footprint for us. So that's where you will see us extending into those IoT devices too. >> Okay, so, in going forward, Jim, if you would just, let's talk about your 2021 in terms of how you further integrate these offerings that you've acquired right now. All of a sudden you've got 30 days of, you know, which is snap of a finger. But what do you see how 2021 is going to lay out, especially with distributed workforces, right? We know that's here. That's a new normal. And with a whole new set of demands on networks and certainly the need for security. >> That's exactly correct, John. I mean, everything is changed and it's never going back to the way it was. You know, everybody has their own definition of the new normal. I guess my definition is at some point in time when things do return to some form of normality, a portion of our workforce will always work from home. To what degree remains to be seen. I don't think we're different from virtually any other industry or any other company. It does put increased demands ,complexity and requirements around how you run your internal IT business. But as Nayaki talked about kind of our virtual service desk offering where you're not going to have a service desk anymore. It's got to be virtual. Well, you have to be able to still provide those services outside of your normal network. And so that's going to be a continued big push for us. I'm incredibly pleased with the way in which the employee bases of the acquired companies have really folded in and become one with our company. And I think as we all recognize cultural differences between organizations can be quite significant and an impediment to really moving forward. Fortunately for us, we have found that both of these organizations fit really nicely from an employee, from a values perspective, from a goals and objectives perspective. And so we did most of the heavy lifting on all the integration shortly after we closed the transactions on the 2nd of December. And so we've moved beyond what I would call the normal kind of concerns and asked around what's going to happen in this and that. We're now kind of heads down in what's the long-term integration going to look like from a product standpoint. We're already looking at additional acquisitions that will continue to take us deeper and wider into our three product pillars, as Nayaki described. And that'll be an ongoing kind of steady dose of acquisitions as we continue to supplement our organic growth within organic growth. >> But you've got to answer my question. I was going to ask you, you founded the company four years ago. There were two big acquisitions back in 2017. We waited four years Jim, until you dip back into that pole again. So the plan, maybe not to wait four years before moving on. >> No trust me, you won't be waiting another four years. Now you've got to bear in mind, John. I wasn't here four years ago. >> That's right, okay. Fair enough. That's okay. I want to thank you both for the time today. Congratulations on sealing those deals back in December and we certainly wish you all the best going forward. And of course, a very happy and a very safe new year for you and yours. >> Same to you, John. Thanks so much for the time. And so it was a pleasure to spend time with you today. >> Thank you, John. Happy New Year again. Thank you. Thank you. (upbeat music)

>> It took a global pandemic for the world to realize an inescapable truth about cloud computing. It's a journey, not a destination. It's a mental model and a mindset. This is Dave Vellante, inviting you to join me on Thursday June 21st for "theCUBE" on cloud. Look if 2020 was about jumping onto the cloud, bandwagon for many firms, 2021 will be about navigating through the cloud landscape and exploring the opportunities presented by edge computing, AI, multi-cloud and serverless along the way. On January 21st "theCUBE" will bring together CXOs, practitioners, technologists, CIOs, analysts, to understand the future of cloud. Tapping the expertise, knowledge, and independent voices from "theCUBE" community. Registration is free. Mark your calendars for "theCUBE" on cloud January 21st. You're watching "theCUBE," the global leader in digital high-tech coverage.

[Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] you [Music] [Applause] [Music] live from Barcelona Spain it's the cube covering Cisco live 2020 rot to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners come back this is the cubes coverage of Cisco live 2020 here in Barcelona doing about three and a half days of wall-to-wall coverage here I'm Stu minim and my co-host for this segment is Dave Volante John furs also here scouring the floor and really happy to welcome to the program to first-time guests I believe so Ron Daris is the product manager of product marketing for cloud computing with Cisco and sitting to his left is Matt Ferguson who's director of product development also with the Cisco cloud group Dave and I are from Boston Matt is also from the Boston area yes and Costas is coming over from London so thanks so much for joining us thanks IBPS all right so obviously cloud computing something we've been talking about many years we've really found fascinating the relationship Cisco's had with its customers as well as through the partner ecosystem had many good discussions about some of the announcements this week maybe start a little bit you know Cisco's software journey and you know positioning in this cloud space right now yes oh so it's a it's a really interesting dynamic when we start transitioning to multi cloud and we actually deal with cloud and compute coming together and we've had whether you're looking at the infrastructure ops organization or whether you're looking at the apps operations or whether you're looking at you know your dev environment your security operations each organization has to deal with their angle at which they view you know multi cloud or they view how they actually operate within those the cloud computing context and so whether you're on the infrastructure side you're looking at compute you're looking at storage you're looking at resources if you're an app operator you're looking at performance you're looking at visibility assurance if you are in the security operations you're looking at maybe governance you're looking at policy and then when you're a developer you really sort of thinking about CI CD you're talking about agility and there's very few organizations like Cisco that actually is looking at from a product perspective all those various angles of multi-cloud yeah definitely a lot of piece of cost us maybe up level it for us a little bit there's there's so many pieces you know we talked for so long you know you don't talk to any company that doesn't have a cloud strategy doesn't mean that it's not going to change over time and it means every company's got at home positioning but talk about the relationship cisco has with its customer and really the advisory position that you want to have with them it's actually a very relevant question to what to what Matt is talking about because we talk a lot about multi cloud as a trend and hybrid clouds and this kind of relationship between the traditional view of looking at computing data centers and then expanding to different clouds you know public cloud providers have now amazing platform capabilities and if you think about it the the it goes back to what Matt said about IT ops and the development kind of efforts why is this happening really you know there's there's the study that we did with with an analyst and there was an amazing a shocking stat around how within the next three years organizations will have to support 50% more applications than they do now and we have been trying to test this stat our events that made customer meetings etc that is a lot of a lot of change for organizations so if you think about why are they use why do they need to basically what go and expand to those clouds is because they want to service IT Ops teams want ER servers with capabilities their developers faster right and this is where you have within the IT ops kind of theme organization you have the security kind of frame the compute frame the networking where you know Cisco has a traditional footprint how do you blend all this how do you bring all this together in a linear way to support individual unique application modernization efforts I think that's what are we hearing from customers in terms of the feedback and this is what influences our strategy to converts the different business units and engineering engineering efforts right couple years ago I have to admit I was kind of a multi cloud skeptic I always said I thought it was more of a symptom than actually a strategy a symptom of you know shadow IT and different workloads and so forth but now I'm kind of buying in because I think IT in particular has been brought in to clean up the crime scene I often say so I think it is becoming a strategy so if you could help us understand what you're hearing from customers in terms of their strategy toward the multi cloud and how Cisco that was mapping into that yeah so so when we talk to customers it comes back to the angle at which they're approaching the problem in like you said the shadow IT has been probably around for longer than anybody won't cares to admit because the people want to move faster organizations want to get their product out to market sooner and and so what what really is we're having conversations now about you know how do I get the visibility how do I get you know the policies and the governance so that I can actually understand either how much I'm spending in the cloud or whether I'm getting the actual performance that I'm looking for that I need the connectivity so I get the bandwidth and so these are the kinds of conversations that we have with customers is is is going I realize that this is going on now I actually have to now put some you know governance and controls around that is their products is their solutions is their you know they're looking to Cisco to help them through this journey because it is a journey because as much as we talk about cloud and you know companies that were born in the cloud cloud native there is a tremendous number of IT organizations that are just starting that journey that are just entering into this phase where they have to solve these problems yeah I agree and it's just starting the journey with a deliberate strategy as opposed to okay we got this this thing but if you think about the competitive landscape its kind of interesting and I want to try to understand where Cisco fits because again you you initially had companies that didn't know in a public cloud sort of pushing multi cloud and you'd say oh well okay so they have to do that but now you see anthos come out with Google you see Microsoft leaning in we think eventually AWS is going to lean in and then you say I'm kind of interested in working with someone whose cloud agnostic not trying to force now now Cisco a few years ago you didn't really think about Cisco as a player now so this goes right in the middle I have said often that Cisco's in a great position John Fourier as well to connect businesses and from a source of networking strength making a strong argument that we have the most cost-effective most secure highest performance network to connect clouds that seems to be a pretty fundamental strength of yours and does that essentially summarize your strategy and and how does that map into the actions that you're taking in terms of products and services that you're bringing to market I would say that I can I can I can take that ya know it's a chewy question for hours yeah so I I was thinking about a satellite in you mentioned this before and you're like okay that's you know the world is turning around completely because we we seem to talk about satellite e is something bad happening and now suddenly we completely forgot about it like let let free free up the developers gonna let them do whatever they want and basically that is what I think is happening out there in the market so all the solutions you mentioned in the go to market approaches and the architectures that the public cloud providers at least are offering out there certainly the big three have differences have their strengths and I think those strengths are closer to the developer environment basically you know if you're looking into something like a IML there's one provider that you go with if you're looking for a mobile development framework you're gonna go somewhere else if you're looking for a dr you're gonna go somewhere else maybe not a big cloud but your service provider that you've been dealing with all these all these times and you know that they have their accreditation that you're looking for so where does Cisco come in you know we're not a public cloud provider we offer products as a service from our data centers and our partners data centers but at the - at the way that the industry sees a cloud provider a public cloud like AWS a sure Google Oracle IBM etc we're not that we don't do that our mission is to enable organizations with software hardware products SAS products to be able to facilitate their connectivity security visibility observability and in doing business and in leveraging the best benefits from those clouds so we we kind of we kind of moved to a point where we flip around the question and the first question is who is your cloud provider what how many tell us the clouds you work with and we can give you the modular pieces you can put we can put together for you so there's so that you can make the best out of your plan it's been being able to do that across clouds we're in an environment that is consistent with policies that are consistent that represent the edicts of your organization no matter where your data lives that's sort of the the vision in the way this is translated into products into Cisco's product you naturally think about Cisco as the connectivity provider networking that's that's really sort of our you know go to in what we're also when we have a significant computing portfolio as well so connectivity is not only the connectivity of the actual wire between geographies point A to point B in the natural routing and switching world there's connectivity between applications between cute and so this week you know the announcements were significant in that space when you talk about the compute and the cloud coming together on a single platform that gives you not only the ability to look at your applications from a experience journey map so you can actually know where the problems might occur in the application domain you can actually then go that next level down into the infrastructure level and you can say okay maybe I'm running out of some sort of resource whether it's compute resource whether it's memory whether it's on your private cloud that you have enabled on Prem or whether it's in the public cloud that you have that application residing and then why candidly you have the actual hardware itself so inter-site it has an ability to control that entire stack so you can have that visibility all the way down to the hardware layer I'm glad you brought up some of the applications wonderful we can you know stay there for a moment and talk about some of the changing patterns for customers a lot of talk in the industry about cloud native often it gets conflated with you know microservices containerization and lots of the individual pieces there but you know one of our favorite things that been talked about this week is the software that really sits at the application layer and how that connects down through some of the infrastructure pieces so help us understand what you're hearing from customers and and where how you're helping them through this transition to constants as you were saying absolutely there's going to be lots of new applications more applications and they still have the the old stuff that they need to continue to manage because we know an IT nothing ever goes away that's that's definitely true I was I was thinking you know there's there's a vacuum at the moment and and there's things that Cisco is doing from from technology leadership perspective to fill that gap between the application what do you see when it comes to monitoring making sure your services are observable and how does that fit within the infrastructure stack you know everything upwards network the network layer base again that is changing dramatically some of the things that Matt touched upon with regards to you know being able to connect the the networking the security in the infrastructure the computer infrastructure that the developers basically are deploying on top so there's a lot of there's a lot of things on containerization there's a lot of in fact it's you know one part of the of the self-injure side of the stack that you mentioned and one of the big announcements you know that there's a lot of discussion in the industry around ok how does that abstract further the conversation on networking for example because that now what we're seeing is that you have huge monoliths enterprise applications that are being carved down into micro services ok they you know there's a big misunderstanding around what is cloud native is it related to containers different kind of things right but containers are naturally the infrastructure de facto currency for developers to deploy because of many many benefits but then what happens you know between the kubernetes layer which seems to be the standard and the application who's gonna be managing services talking to each other that are multiplying you know things like service mesh network service mess how is the network evolving to be able to create this immutable infrastructure for developers to deploy applications so there's so many things happening at the same time where cisco has actually a lot of taking a lot of the front seat this is where it gets really interesting you know it's sort of hard to squint through because you mentioned kubernetes is the de facto standard but it's a de-facto standard that's open everybody's playing with but historically this industry has been defined by you know a leader who comes out with a de facto standard kubernetes not a company right it's an open standard and so but there's so many other components than containers and so history would suggest that there's going to be another de facto standard or multiple standards that emerge and your point earlier is you you got to have the full stack you can't just do networking you can't just do certain few so you guys are attacking that whole pie so how do you think this thing will evolve I mean you guys are obviously intend to put out as Casta as wide a net as possible capture not only your existing install base but attractive attract others and you're going aggressively at it as are as are others how do you see it shaking out deep do you see you know four or five pockets do you see you know one leader emerging I mean customers would love all you guys to get together come up with standards that's not going to happen so we're it's jump ball right now well yeah and you think about you know to your point regarding kubernetes is not a company right it is it is a community driven I mean it was open source by a large company but it's but it's community driven now and that's the pace at which open source is sort of evolving there is so much coming at IT organizations from a new paradigm a new software something that's you know the new the shiny object that sort of everybody sort of has to jump on to and sort of say that is the way we're going to function so IT organizations have to struggle with this influx of just every coming at them and every angle and I think what's starting to happen is the management and the you know that stack who controls that or who is helping IT organizations to manage it for them so really what we're trying to say is there's elements that you have to put together that have to function and kubernetes is just one example docker the operating system that associated with it that runs all that stuff then you have the application that goes rides IDEs on top of it so now what we have to have is things like what we just announced this week HX ap the application platform for HX so you have the compute cluster but then you have the on top of that that's managed by an organization that's looking at the security that's looking at the the actual making opinions about what should go in the stock and managing that for you so you don't have to deal with that because you can just focus on the application development yeah I mean Cisco's in a strong position to do there's no question about it and to me it comes down to execution if you guys execute and deliver on the the products and services that you say you know your nouns for instance this week and previously and you continue on a roadmap you're gonna get a fair share of this marketplace I think there's no question so last topic before we let you go is love your viewpoint on customers what's separating kind of leaders from you know the followers in this space you know there's so much data out there you know I'm a big fan of the state of DevOps report yeah focus you know separate you know some but not the not here's the technology or the piece but the organizational and you know dynamics that you should do so it sounds like Matt you you like that that report also love them what are you hearing from customers how do you help guide them towards becoming leaders in the cloud space yeah the state of DevOps report was fascinating and I mean they've been doing that for what a number of years yeah exactly and really what it's sort of highlighting is two main factors that I think that are in this revolution or this this this paradigm shift or journey we're going through there's the technology side for sure and so that's getting more complex you have micro services you have application explosion you have a lot of things that are occurring just in technology that you're trying to keep up but then it's really about the human aspect that human elements the people about it and that's really I think what separates you know the the elites that are really sort of you know just charging forward in the head because they've been able to sort of break down the silos because really what you're talking about in cloud native DevOps is how you take the journey of that experience of the service from end to end from the development all the way to production and how do you actually sort of not have organizations that look at their domain their data set their operations and then have to translate that or have to sort of you know have another conversation with another organization that it doesn't look at that that has no experience of that so that is what we're talking about that end-to-end view is that in addition to all the things we've been talking about I think Security's a linchpin here now you guys are executing on security you got a big portfolio and you've seen a lot of M&A and a lot of companies now trying to get in and it's gonna be interesting to see how that plays out but that's going to be a key because organizations are going to start there from a strategy standpoint and then build out yeah absolutely if you follow the DevOps methodology its security gets baked in along the way so that you're not having to sit on after do anything Custis give you the final word I was just as follow-up with regard what what Mark was saying there's so many there's what's happening out there is this just democracy around standards which is driven by communities and we will love that in fact cisco is involved in many open-source community projects but you asked about customers and and just right before you were asking about you know who's gonna be the winner there's so many use cases there's so much depth in terms of you know what customers want to do with on top of kubernetes you know take AI ml for example something that we have we have some some offering the services around there's the customer that wants to do AML there their containers that their infrastructure will be so much different to someone else's doing something just hosting yeah and there's always gonna be a SAS provider that is niche servicing some oil and gas company you know which means that the company of that industry will go and follow that instead of just going to a public law provider that is more organized if there's a does that make sense yeah yeah this there's relationships that exist the archer is gonna get blown away that add value today and they're not gonna just throw them out so exactly right well thank you so much for helping us understand the updates where your customers are driving super exciting space look forward to keeping an eye on it thank you thank you so much all right there's still lots more coming here from Cisco live 20/20 in Barcelona people are standing watching all the developer events lots of going on the floor and we still have more so thank you for watching the cute [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] you [Music] live from Barcelona Spain it's the cube covering Cisco live 2020 rot to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners welcome back over 17,000 in attendance here for Cisco live 2020 in Barcelona ops to Minh and my co-host is Dave Volante and to help us to dig into of course one of the most important topic of the day of course that security we're thrilled to have back a distinguished engineer Francisco one of our cube alumni TK Kia Nene TK thanks so much for joining us ideal man good good all right so TK it's 2020 it's a new decade we know the bad actors are still out there they're there the the question always is you know it used to be you know how do you keep ahead of them then I've here Dave say many times well you know it's not you know when it's it's not if it's when you know you probably already have been okay you know compromised before so it gives latest so you know what you're seeing out there what you're talking to customers about in this important space yeah it's uh it's kind of an innovation spiral you know we we innovate we make it harder for them and then they innovate they make it harder for us right and round and round we go that's been going on for for many years I think I think the most significant changes that have happened recently have to deal with not essentially their objectives but how they go about their objectives and Defenders topologies have changed greatly instead of just your standard enterprise you now have you know hybrid multi cloud and all these new technologies so while while all that innovation happens you know they get a little clever and they find weaknesses and round and round we go so we talked a lot about the sort of changing profile of the the threat actors going from hacktivists took criminals now is a huge business and nation-states even what's that profile look like today and how has that changed over the last decade or so you know that's pretty much stayed the same bad guys are bad guys at some point in time you know just how how they go about their business their techniques they're having to like I said innovate around you know we make it harder for them they you know on Monday we're safe on Tuesday we're not you know and then on Wednesday it switches again so so it talked about kind of this multi-cloud environment when we talk to customers it's like well I want the developer to be able to build their application and not really have to think too much underneath it that that has to have some unique challenges we know security we knew long ago well I just go to the cloud it doesn't mean they take care of it some things are there some things they're gonna remind you now you need to make sure you set certain things otherwise you could be there but how do we make sure that Security's baked in everywhere and is up as a practice that everybody's doing well I mean again some of the practices hold true no matter what the environment I think the big thing was cognitive is in back in the day when when you looked at an old legacy data center you were part sort of administrator in your part detective and most people don't even know what's running on there that's not true in cloud native environments some some llamó file some some declaration it's it's just exactly what productions should look like right and then the machines instantiate production so you're doing things that machine scale forces the human scale people to be explicit and and for me I mean that's that's a breath of fresh air because once you're explicit then you take the mystery out of what you're protecting how about in terms of how you detect threats right phishing for credentials has become a huge deal but not just you know kicking down the door or smashing a window using your your own credentials to get inside of your network so how is that affected the way in which you detect yeah it's it's a big deal you know a lot of a lot of great technology has a dual use and what I mean by that is network cryptology you know that that whole crypto on the network has made us safer for us to compute over insecure networks and unfortunately it works just as well for the bad guys so you know all of their malicious activity is now private to so it you know for us we just have to invent new ways of detecting direct inspection for instance I think it's a thing of the past I mean we just can't depend on it anymore we have to have tools of inference and not only that but it's it's gave rise in a lot of innovation on behavioral science and as you say you know it's it's not that the attacker is breaking into your network anymore they're logging in ok what do you do then right Alice Alice's account it's not gonna set off the triggers so you have to say you know when did Alice start to behave differently you know she's working in accounting why is she playing around with the source code repository that's that's a different thing right yes automation is such a big trend you know how do we make sure that automation doesn't leave us more vulnerable that's rarity because we need to be able automate we've gone beyond human scale for most of these configurations that's exactly right and and how do how do we I always say just with security automation in particular just because you can automate something doesn't mean you should and you really have to go back and have practices you know you could argue that that this thing is just a you know machine scale automation you could do math on a legal pad or you can use a computer to do it right what so apply that to production if you mechanized something like order entry or whatever you're you're you're automating part of your business use threat modeling you use the standard threaten modeling like you would your code the network is code now right and the storage is code and everything is code so you know just automate your testing do your threat modeling do all that stuff please do not automate for your attacker matrix is here I want to go back to the Alice problem because you're talking about before you have to use inference so Alice's is in the network and you're observing her moves every day and then okay something anomalous occurs maybe she's doing something that normally she wouldn't do so you've got to have her profile in her actions sort of observed documented stored the data has got to be there and at the same time you want to make sure it's always that balance of putting handcuffs on people you know versus allowing them to do their job and be productive at the same time as well you don't want to let the bad guys know that you know that alice is doing something that she didn't be doing is actually not Alice so all that complexity how are you dealing with it and what's the data model look like doing it machines help let's say that machines can help us you know you and I we have only so many sense organs and the cognitive brain can only store so many so much state machines really help us extend that and so you know looking at not three dimensions of change but 7000 dimensions have changed right something in the machine is going to say there's an outlier here that's interesting and you can get another machine to say that's that's interesting maybe I should focus on that and you build these analytical pipelines so that at the end of it you know they may argue with each other all the way to the end but at the end you have a very high fidelity indicator that might be at the protocol level it might be at the behavioral level it might be seven days back or thirty days back all these temporal and spatial dimensions it's really cheap to do it with a machine yeah and if we could stay on that for a second so it try to understand I know that's a high-level example but is it best practice to have the Machine take action or is it is it an augmentation and I know it depends on the use case but but how is that sort of playing out again you have to do all of this safely okay a lot of things that machines do don't return back to human scale stuff that returns back to human scale that humans understand that is as useful so for instance if machines you know find out all these types of in assertions even in medical you know right now if if you've got so much telemetry going into the medical field see the machine tells you you have three weeks to live I mean you better explain what the heck you know how you came about that assertion it's the same with security you know if I'm gonna say look we're gonna quarantine your machine or we're gonna readjust machine it's not I'm not like picking movies for you or the next song you might listen to this is high stakes and so when you do things like that your analytics needs to have what is called entailment you have to explain what it is how you got to that assertion that's become incredibly important in how we measure our effectiveness in in doing analytics that's interesting because because you're using a lot of machine intelligence to do this and in a lot of AI is blackbox you're saying you cannot endure that blackbox problem in security yeah that black boxes is is very dangerous you know I you know personally I feel that you know things that should be open sourced this type of technology it's so advanced that the developer needs to understand that the tester needs to understand that certainly the customer needs to understand it you need to publish papers and be very very transparent with this domain because if it is in fact you know black box and it's given the authority to automate something like you know shut down the power or do things like that that's when things really start to get dangerous so good TK what wondered you know give us the latest on stealthWatch there you know Cisco's positioning when it when it comes to everything we've been talking about here you know stealthWatch again is it's been in market for quite some time it's actually been in market since 2001 and when I when I look back and see how much has changed you know how we've had to keep up with the market and again it's not just the algorithms rewrite for detection it's the environments have changed right but when did when did multi-cloud happen so so operating again cusp it's not that stealthWatch wants to go their customers are going there and they want the stealthWatch function across their digital business and so you know we've had to make advancements on the changing topology we've had to make advancements because of things like dark data you know the the network's opaque now right we have to have a lot of inference so we've just you know kept up and stayed ahead of it you know we've been spending a lot of time talking to developer communities and there's a lot of open-source tooling out there that that's helping enable developers specifically in security space you were talking about open-source earlier how does what you've been doing the self watch intersect with that yeah that's always interesting too because there's been sort of a shift in let's call them the cool kids right the cool kids they want everything is code right so it's not about what's on glass or you know a single pane of glass anymore it's it's what stealth watches code right what's your router as code look at dev net right yeah yeah I mean definite is basically Cisco as code and it's beautiful because that is infrastructure as code I mean that is the future and so all the products not just stealthWatch have beautiful api's and that's that's really exciting I've been saying for a while now it's do you I think you agree is that that is a big differentiator for Cisco I think you you're one of the few if not the only large established player and the enterprise that has figured out that sort of infrastructure is code play others have tried and are sort of getting there but you know start/stop you use a term that really cool is like living off the land you know bear bear grylls like the guy who lives down so bad so and and and threat actors are doing that now they're using your own installed software and tooling to hack you and and steal from you how were you dealing with that problem yeah it's a tough one and like I said you know much respect the the adversary is talented and they're patient they're well funded okay that's that's where it starts and so you know why why bring why bring an interpreter to a host when there's already one there right why right all this complicated software distribution when I can just use yours and so that's that's where the the play the game starts and and the most advanced threats aren't leaving footprints because the footprints are already there you know they'll get on a machine and behaviorally they'll check the cache to see what's hot and what's hot in the cache means that behaviorally it's a path they can go they're not cutting a new trail most of the time right so living off the land is not only the tools that they're using the automation your automation they're using against you but it's also behavioral and so that that makes it you know it makes it harder it's it impossible no can we make it harder for them yes so yeah no I'm having fun and I've been doing this for over twenty five years every week it's something new well it's a hard problem you're attacking and you know Robert Herjavec who came on the cube sort of opened my eyes and you think about what are we securing we're securing everything I mean a critical infrastructure were essentially exerted securing the entire global economy and he said something that really struck me it's an 86 trillion dollar economy we spend point zero one four percent on securing that economy and it's nothing now of course he's an entrepreneur and he's pimping for his is his business but it's true we are barely scratching the surface of this problem yeah I'm and it's changing I mean it's changing it could it be better yes it is changing his board awareness you know twenty years ago then right me to a dinner party they you know what does your husband do I'd say you know cyber security or something they'd roll their eyes and change the subject now they asked me the same question so oh you know my computer's running really slow right these are not this is everyone I'm worried about a life hack yeah how do I protect myself or what about these coming off the bank I mean that's those guys a dinner table cover every party so now now you know I just make something up I don't do cybersecurity I just you know a tort or a jipner's you've been to this business forever I can't remember have I ever asked you the superhero question what is that your favorite superhero that's a tough one there's all the security guys I know they like it's always dreamed about saving the world [Laughter] you're my superhero man I love what you do I think you've a great asset for Cisco and Cisco's customers really thanks TK give us a final word if people want to you know find out more about about what Cisco's doing read more of what you're working on but what's some of the best resource I have to go do you know just drop by the web pages I mean everything's published out that like I said even even for the super nerdy you know we published all our our laurs security analytics papers I think we're over 50 papers published in the last 12 years TK thank you so much always a pleasure to catch alright yeah and a travels thank you so much for de Villante I'm Stu Mittleman John furrier is also in the house we will be back with lots more coverage here from Cisco live 20/20 in Barcelona thanks for watching the keys [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] live from Barcelona Spain it's the cube covering Cisco live 2020s brought to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners hello and welcome back to the cubes live coverage it's our fourth day of four days of coverage here in Barcelona Spain for Cisco live 2020 I'm John Faria my co-host to many men to great guests here in the dev net studio where the cube is sitting all week long been packed with action mindy Whaley senior director developer experiences but dev net and partner a senior director welcome back to this cube good to see you guys glad to be here so we've had a lot of history with you guys what from day one yes watching def net from an idea of hey we should develop earthing you also have definite create yes separate more developer focused definite is Cisco's developer environment we've been here from the beginning what a progression congratulations on the success thank you thank you so much it's great to be here in Barcelona with everybody here you know learning in the workshops and we just love these times to connect with our community at Cisco live and it definitely ate what you mentioned which is coming up in March so it's right around the corner def net zone which we're in it's been really robust spins it's been the top of the show every year and it gets bigger and the sessions are packed because people are learning developers new developers as well as Cisco engineers who were certified coming in getting new skills as the modern cloud hybrid environments are new skills is a technology shift yeah exactly and what we have in the definite zone are different ways that the engineers and developers can engage with that technology shift so we have demos around IOT and security and showing how you know to prevent threats from attacking the Industrial routers and things like that we have coding workshops from you know beginning intro to Python intro to get all the way up through advanced like kubernetes topics and things like that so people can really dive in with what they're looking for and this year we're really excited because we have the new definite certifications with those exams coming out right around the corner in February so a lot of people are here saying I'm ready to skill up for those exams I'm starting to dive into this topic well Susie we was on she's the chief of deaf net among other things and she said there's gonna be a definite 500 the first 500 certifications of deaf net are gonna be kind of like the Hall of Fame or you know the inaugural or founder certifications so can you explain what this it means it's not a definite certification badge it's a series of write different sir can you deeper in then yeah just like we have our you know existing network certifications which are so respected and loved around the world people get CCIE tattoos and things just like there's an associate and professional and expert level on the networking truck there's now a definite associate a definite professional and coming soon definite expert and then there's also specialist badges which help you add specific skills like data center automation IOT WebEx so it's a whole new set of certifications that are more focused on the software so there are about 80 80 % software skills 20 percent knowledge of networking and then how you really connect up and down the stock so these are new certifications not replacing anything all the same stuff they're new they're part of the same program they have the same rigor the same kind of tests they actually have ways to enter weave with the existing networking certifications because we want people to do both skill paths right to build this new IT team of the future and so it's a completely new set of exams the exams are gonna be available to take February 24th and you can start signing up now so with the definite 500 you know that's gonna be a special recognition for the first 500 people who get dead note certifications it'll be a lifetime achievement they'll always be in the definite 500 right and I've had people coming up and telling me you know I'm signed up for the first day I'm taking my exams on the first day I'm trying to get into them you and I only always want to be on the lift so I think we might be on them and what's really great is with the certifications we've heard from people in the zone that they've been coming and taking classes and learning these skills but they didn't have a specific way to map that to their career path to get rewarded at work you know to have that sort of progression and so with the certifications they really will have that and it's also really important for our partners and par is doing a lot of work with certifications and partners yeah definitely that would love to hear a little bit we've interviewed on the cube over the years some of the definite partners from a technology standpoint of course the the channels ecosystem hugely important to Cisco's business gives the update as to you know definite partnering as well as what will these certifications mean to both the technology and go to market partners yeah the wonderful thing about this is it really demonstrates Cisco's embracement of software and making sure that we're providing that common language for software developers and networkers to bring the two together and what we've found is that our partners are at different levels of maturity along that progression of program ability and this new definite specialization which is anchored in the individuals that are now certified at that partner allow them to demonstrate from a go-to-market standpoint from a recognition standpoint that as a practice they have these skills and look at the end of the day it's all about delivering what our customers need and our customers are asking us for significant help in automation digital transformation they're trying to drive new business outcomes and this this will provide that recognition on on who to partner with in the market it's so important I remember when Cisco helped a lot of the partner ecosystem build data center practices went from the silos and now embracing you've got the hardware the software we're talking multi cloud it's the practice that is needed today going forward to help customers with where they're going it really is and and another benefit that we're finding and talking to our partners is we're packaging this up and rolling it out is not only will it help them from a recognition standpoint from a practice standpoint and from a competitive differentiation standpoint but it'll also help them attract challenge I mean it's no secret there is a talent shortage right now if you talk to any CEO that's top of mind and how these partners are able to attract these new skills and attract smart people smart people like working on smart things right and so this has really been a big traction point for them as well it's also giving ways to really specifically train for new job roles so some of the ways that you can combine the new definite certifications with the network engineering certifications we've looked at it and said you know there's there's a role of Network automation developer that's a new role everyone we ask in one of our sessions who needs that person on their team so many customers partners raise their hands like we want the network Automation developer on our team and you can combine you know your CCNP Enterprise with a definite certification and build up the skills to be that Network automation developer certainly has been great buzz I got to get your guys thoughts because certainly it's for careers and you guys are betting on the the people and the people are betting on Cisco mm-hmm yes this is what's going on submit surety of Devin it almost it's like a pinch me moment for you guys because you continue to grow I got to ask you what are some of the cool things that you're showing here as you mature you still have the start here session which is intro to Python and other things pretty elementary and then there's more advanced things what are some of the new things that's going on yeah that you could share so some of the new things we've got going on and one of my favorites is the IOT insecurity demonstration there's a an industrial robot arm that's picking and placing things and you can see how it's connected to the network and then something goes wrong with that robot alarm and then you can actually show how you can use the software and security tools to see was there code trying to access you know something that that robot was it was using it's getting in the way of it working so you could detect threats and move forward on that we also have a whole automation journey that starts from modeling your network to testing to how you would deploy automation to a deep dive on telemetry and then ends with multi domain automation so really helping engineers like look at that whole progression that's been that's been really popular Park talked about the specialization which ones are more popular or entry-level which ones are people coming into getting certified first network engineering automation first or what's the yeah so we're so the program is going to roll out with three different levels one is a specialized level the second is an advanced level and then we'll look to that third level again they're anchored in the in the individual certs and so as we look for that entry level it's really all about automation right I mean some things you take for granted but you still need these new skills to be able to automate and scale and have repeatable scalable benefits from that this the second tier will be more cross-domain and that's where we're really thinking that an additional skill set is needed to deliver dashboard experience compliance experiences and then that next level again we'll anchor towards the expert level that's coming out but one thing I want to point out is in addition to just having the certified people on staff they also have to demonstrate that they have a practice around it so it's not just enough to say I've passed an exam as we work with them to roll out the practice and they earn the badge they're demonstrating that they have the full methodology in place so that it really there's a lot behind it that means we can't be in the 500 list then even if a 500 list I don't know that the cube would end up being specialized its advertising no seriously all fun it's all fun it's Cisco live in Europe is there a difference between European and USD seeing any differences in geographic talent you know in the first couple years we did it I think there was a bigger difference it felt like there were different topics that were very popular in the US slightly different in Europe last year and this year I feel like they have converged it's it's the same focus on DevOps automation security as a huge focus in both places and it also feels like the the interest and level of the people attending has also converged it's really similar congratulations been fun to watch the rise and success of Devon it continues to be strong how see in the hub here and the definite zone behind us pact sessions yes what's the biggest surprise for you guys in terms of things that you didn't expect or some of the success what's what's jumped out yeah I think you know one of the points that I want to make sure we also cover and it has been an added benefit we're hoping it would happen we just didn't realize it would happen this soon we're attracting new companies new partners so the specialization won't just be available for our traditional bars this is also available for our non resale and we are finding different companies accessing definite resources and learning these skills so that's been a really great benefit of Deb net overall definitely my favorite surprises are when I show up at the community events and I hear from someone I met last year what the what they went back and did and the change that they drove and they come in their company and I think we're seeing those across the board of people who start a grassroots movement take back some new ideas really create change and then they come back and we get to hear about that from them those are my favorite surprises and I tell you we've known for years how important the developer is but I think the timing on this has been perfect because it is no longer just oh the developer has some tools that they like in the corner the developer connected to the business and driving things forward exactly so perfect timing congratulations on this certification their thing that's been great is that our at Cisco itself we now have API is across the whole portfolio and up and down the stock so that's been a wonderful thing to see come together because it opens up possibilities for all these developers so Cisco's API first company we are building it guys everywhere we can and and that the community is is taking them and finding creative things to build it's been fun to watch you guys change Cisco but also impact customers has been great to watch far many thanks for coming up yeah games live coverage here in Barcelona for Cisco live 20/20 I'm John Ford Dave Dave Alon face to many men we right back with more after this short break [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] you live from Barcelona Spain it's the cube covering Cisco live 2020 brought to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners hello and welcome back to the cubes live coverage here at Cisco live 20/20 and partial into Spain I'm John first evening men cube coverage we've got a lot of stuff going on with Cisco multi-cloud and cloud technologies of clarification of Cisco's happening in real time is happening right now cloud is here here to stay we got two great guests to unpack what's going on in cloud native and networking and applications as the modern infrastructure and software evolves we got eugene kim global product marketing and compute storage at cisco global part of marketing manager and fabio corey senior director cloud solutions marketing guys great comeback great thanks for coming back appreciate it thanks very much great to see a lot of guys so probably we've had multiple conversations and usually even out from the sales force given kind of the that the discussion and the motivation cloud is big it's here it's here to stay it's changing Cisco API first we hear and all the products it's changing everything what's the story now what's going on I would say you know the reason why we're so excited about the launch here in Barcelona it's because this time it's all about the application experience I mean the last two years we've been announcing some really exciting stuff in the cloud space right think about all the announcements with the AWS the Google's the Azure so the world but this time it really boils down to making sure that is incredibly hyper distributed world well there is an application explosion ultimately we will help for the right operations tools and infrastructure management tools to ensure that the right application experience will be guaranteed for the end customer and that's incredibly important because at the end what really really matters is that you will ensure the best possible digital experience to your customer otherwise ultimately nothing is gonna work and of course you're going to lose your brand and your customers one of the main stories that we're covering is the transformation of the industry also Cisco and one of the highlights to me was the opening keynote you had app dynamics first not networking normally it's like what's under the hood the routers and the gear no it was about the applications this is the story we're seeing it's kind of a quiet unveiling it's not yet a launch but it's evolving very quickly can you share what's going on behind this all this absolutely it's exactly along the lines of what I was saying a second ago in the end that the reason why we're driving the announcement if you want from the application experience side of the house is because without dynamics we already have a very very powerful application performance measurement tool which it's evolving extremely rapidly first of all after Amex can correlate not just the application performance to some technology kpi's but to true actual business KPIs so AB dynamics can give you for instance the real-time visibility of say a marketing funnel conversion rates transactions that you're having in your in your business operation now we're introducing an incredibly powerful new capability that takes the bar to a whole new level and that's the dynamics experience journey Maps what are those it's actually the ability of focusing not so much on front-ends and backends and databases performances but really focusing on what the user is seeing in front of his or her screen and so what really matters is capturing the journey that a given user of your application is is being and understanding whether the experience is the one that you want to deliver oh you have like a sudden drop of somewhere and you know why that is important because in the end we've been talking about is it a problem of the application performance user performance well it could be a badly designed page how do you know and so this is a very precious information is that were giving to application developers not just to the IT ops guys that is incredibly precious to get this in so you just brought up that journey so that's part of the news so just break down real quick one minute yeah what the news is yeah so we have three components the first one as you as you correctly pointed out is really introduction the application journey Maps right the experience journey Maps that's very very important the second is we are actually integrating after am it's with the inter-site action inter-site optimization manager the workload team is a workload promisor and so because there is a change of data between the two now you are in a position to immediately understand whether you have an application problem we have a workload problem or infrastructure problem which is ultimate what you really need to do as quickly as you can and thirdly we have introduced a new version of our hyper flex platform which is hyper-converged flat G flat for Cisco with a fully containerized version we tax free if you want as well there is a great platform for containerized application of parameter so you teen when I've been talking to customers last few years when they go through their transformational journey there's the modernization they need to do the patterns I've seen most successful is first you modernize the platform often HCI is you know and often for that it really simplifies the environment you know reduces the silos and has more of that operational model that looks closer to what the cloud experience is and then if I've got a good platform then I can modernize the applications on top of it but often those two have been a little bit disconnected it feels like the announcements now that they are coming together what are you seeing what are you hearing how is your solution set solving this issue yeah exactly I mean as we've been talking to our customers love them are going through different application modernisations and kubernetes and containers is extremely important to them and to build a container cloud on Prem is extremely one of their needs and so there's three distinctive requirements that they've kind of talked to us about a lot of it has to be able to it's got to be very simple very turnkey and a fully integrated ready to turn on the other one is something that's very agile right very DevOps friendly and the third being a very economic container cloud on Prem as far we mentioned high flex application platform takes our hyper-converged system and builds on top of it a integrated kubernetes platform to deliver a container as a service type capability and it provides a full stack fully supported element platform for our customers and the one of the best great aspects of is that's all managed from inside from the physical infrastructure to the hyper-converged layer to all the way to the container management so it's very exciting to have that full stack management and insight as well yeah it's great to you know John and I have been following this kubernetes wave you know since the early early days Fabio mentioned integrations with the Amazons and Google's the world because you know a few years ago you talked to customers and they're like oh well I'm just gonna build my own urbanity right back nobody ever said that is easy now just delivering at his service seems to be the way most people wanted so if I'm doing it on Amazon or Google they've got their manage service that I could do that or that they're through partners they're working with so explain what you're doing to make it simpler in the data center environment because I'm tram absolutely is a piece of that hybrid equation the customers need yes so essentially from the customer experience perspective as I mentioned it's very fairly turnkey right from the hyper flicks application platform we're taking our hyper grew software we're integrating a application virtualization layer on top of it Linux KVM based and then on top of that we're integrating the kubernetes stack on top as well and so in essence right it's a fully curated kubernetes stack right it has all the different elements from the networking from the storage elements and and providing that in a very turnkey way and as I mentioned the inner site management is really providing that simplicity that customers need for that management ok Fabio this the previous announcement you've made with the public clouds yeah this just ties into those hybrid environments that's exactly you know a few years ago people like oh is there gonna be a distribution that wins in kubernetes we don't think that's the answer but still I can't just move between kubernetes you know seamlessly yet but this is moving towards that direction so a lot of customers want to have a very simple implementation at the same time they want of course a multi cloud approach and I really care about you know marking the difference between you know multi-cloud hybrid cloud there's been a lot of confusion but if you think about it multi cloud is really rooted into the business need of harnessing innovation from whatever it comes from you know the different clouds PV different things and you know what they do today tomorrow it could even change so people want option maladie so they want a very simple implementation that's integrated with public cloud providers that simplifies their life in terms of networking security and application of workload management and we've been executing towards that goal to fundamentally simplify the operations of these pretty complex kind of hybrid environments I want you to nail that operations on ibrid that's where multi cloud comes in absolutely just a connection point absolutely you're not a shitty mice no isn't a shit so in order to fulfill your business like your I know business needs you then you have a hybrid problem and you want to really kind of have a consistent production rate environment between fins on Prem that you own and control versus things that you use and you want to control better now of course there are different school of thoughts but most of the customers who are speaking with really want to expand their governance and technology model right to the cloud as opposed to absorb in different ways of doing things from each and every clock I want to unpack a little bit of what you said earlier about the knowing where the problem is because a lot of times it's a point the finger at the other first and where's it's the application problem isn't a problem so I want to get into that but first I want to understand the hyper flex application platform Eugene if you could just share the main problem that you guys saw what did some of the pain points that customers had what problems does the AP solve yeah as I mentioned it's really the platform for our customers to modernize their applications on right and it addresses those things that they're looking for as far as the economics right really the ability to provide a full stack container experience without having to you know but you know bringing any third party hypervisor licenses as well as support cost so that's fully integrated there you have your integrated hyper-converged storage capability you have the cloud-based management and that's really developing you providing that developer DevOps simplicity from the data Julie that they're looking for internally as well as for their product production environments and then the other aspect is its simplicity to be able to manage all this right in the entire lifecycle management as well so it's the operational side of the whole yeah uncovers Papio on the application side where the problem is because this is where I'm a little bit skeptical you know normally rightfully so but I can see in a problem where it's like whose fault is it gasification is problem or the network I mean it runs into more serious workloads the banking app that's having trouble how do you know where it what the problem is and how do you solve that problem what what's going on for that specific issue absolutely and you know the name of the game here is breaking down this operational side right and I love what our app dynamics VP GM Danny winoker said you know it has this terminology beast DevOps which you know may sound like an interesting acrobatics but it's absolutely true the business has to be part of this operational kind of innovation because as you said you know developer edges you know drops their containers and their code to the IET ops team but you don't really know whether the problem a certain point is gonna be in the code or in how the application is actually deployed or maybe a server that doesn't have enough CPU so in the end it boils down to one very important thing you have to have visibility inside and take action and every layer of the stack I mean instrumentation absolutely there are players that only do it in their software overlay domain the problem is very often these kind of players assume that underneath links are fine and very often they're not so in the end this visibility inside inaction is the loop that everybody is going after these days to really get to the next if you want generational operation where you gotta have a constant feedback loop and making it more faster and faster because in the end you can only win in the marketplace right regardless of your IT ops if you're faster than your competitor well still still was questioning the GM of AppDynamics running observability and he's like no it's not to feature it's everywhere so he his comment was yeah but serve abilities don't really talk about it because it's big din do you agree with that absolutely it has to be at every layer of the stack and only if you have visibility inside an action through the entire stack from the software all the way to the infrastructure level that you can solve the problem otherwise the finger-pointing quote-unquote will continue and you will not be able to gain the speed that you need okay so the question on my mind I want to get both of you guys can weigh in on this is that you look at Cisco as a company you got a lot going on I mean a guy's huge customer base core routers - no applications there's a lot going on a lot of a lot of complexity you got IOT security Ramirez talked about that you got the WebEx rooms got totally popular it's kind of got a lot of glam to it having the WebEx kind of you know I guess what virtual presence was yeah telepresence kind of model and then you get cloud is there a mind share within the company around how cloud is baked into everything because you can't do IOT edge without having some sort of cloud operational things so there's stuff you're talking about is not just a division it's kind of gonna it's kind of threads everywhere across Cisco what's the what's the mind share right now within the Cisco teams and also customers around clarification well I would say it's it's a couple of dimension the first one is the cloud is one of the critical domains of this multi domain architecture that of course is the cornerstone of Cisco's technology strategy right if you think about it it's all about connecting users to applications wherever they are and not just the user the applications themselves like if you look at the latest stats from IDC 58% of workloads is heading to the public cloud and to the edge it's like the data center is literally exploding in many different directions so you have this highly distributed kind of fabric guess what sits in between all these applications and microservices is a secure network and that's exactly what we're executing upon now that's the first kind of consideration the second is if you look at the other silver line most of the Cisco technology innovation is also going a direction of absorbing cloud as a simplified way of managing all the components or the infrastructure you look at the IP flex ap is actually managed by inter site which is a SAS kind of component this journey started a long time ago with Cisco Meraki and then of course we have SAS properties like WebEx everything else is kind of absolutely migrants reporter we've been reporting eugen that from years ago we saw the movement where api's are starting to come in when you go back five years ago not a lot of the gear and stuff at Cisco had api's now you got api's building into all the new products that's right you see the software shift with you know you know intent-based networking to AppDynamics it's interesting it's you're seeing kind of this agile mindset this is some of you and I talk about all the time but agile now is the new model is it ready for customers I mean the normal Enterprise is still got the infrastructure and application it's separated okay how do I bring it together what are you guys seeing the customer base what's going on with with not that not the early adopters heavy-duty hardcore pioneers out there but you know the the general mainstream enterprise are they there yet have they had that moment of awakening yeah I mean I think they they are there because fundamentally it's all about that ensuring that application experience and you can only ensure that application experience right by having your application teams and your structure teams work together and that's what's exciting you mentioned the API is and what we've done there with AppDynamics integrating with inter-site workload optimizer as Fabio mentioned it's all about visibility inside action and what app dynamics is provides providing that business and end-user application performance experience visibility inner sites giving you know visibility on the underlining workload and the resources whether it's on Prem in your you know drive data center environment or in different type of cloud providers so you get that full stack visibility right from the application all the way down to the bottom and then inner side local optimizer is then also optimizing the resources to proactively ensure that application experience so before you know if we talk about someone at a checkout and they're about to have abandonment because the functions not working we're able to proactively prevent that and take a look at all that so you know in the end I think it's all about ensuring that application experience and what we're providing with app dynamics is for the application team is kind of that horizontal visibility of how that application is performing and at the same time if there's an issue the infrastructure team could see exactly within the workload topology where the issue is and insert' aeneas lee whether it be manual intervention or even automatically there's or a ops capability go ahead and provide that action so the action could be you know scaling out the VMS it's on-prem or looking at a new different type of ec2 template in the cloud that's what's very exciting about this it's really the application experience is now driving and optimizing infrastructure in real time and let me flip your question like do you even have a choice John when you think about in the next two years 50% more applications if you're a large enterprise you have 5 to 7,000 apps you have another to 3,000 applications just coming into into the the frame and then 50% of the existing ones that are gonna be refactor lifted and shifted or replace or retired by SAS application it's just like it's tsunami that's that's coming on you and oh by the way because of again the micro service is kind of affect the number of dependencies between all these applications is growing incredibly rapidly like last year we were eight average interdependencies for applications now we are 20 so imaging imaging what happens as as you are literally flooded with the way the scanner really you have to ensure that your application infrastructure fundamentally will get tied up as quickly as you can still and I have been toilet for at least five years now if not longer the networking has been the key kind of last changeover - clarification and I would agree with you guys I think I've asked the question because I wanted to get your perspective but think about it it's 13 years since the iPhone so mobile has shown people that a mobile app can change business but now if you look at the pressure the network's bringing the pressure on the network or the pressure for the network to be better than programmable is the rise of video and data I mean so you got mobile check now you've got video I mean more people doing video now than ever before videos of consumer oil as streaming you got data these two things absolutely forced yeah the customers to deal with it but what really tipped the the balance John is is actually the SAS effect is the cloud effect because as you know it's in IT sort of inflection points nothing is linear right so once you reach a certain critical mass of cloud apps and we're absolutely there already all of a sudden you're traffic pattern on your network changes dramatically so why in the world are you continuing kind of you know concentrating all of your traffic in your data center and then going to the internet you have to absolutely open the floodgates at the branch level as close to the users as possible and that implies a radical change I would even add to that and I think you guys are right on where you guys are going it may be hard to kind of tease out with all the complexity with Cisco but in the keynote the business model shifts come from SAS so you got all this technical stuff going on now you have this Asif ocation or cloud that's changes the business models so new entrants can come in and existing players can get better so I think that whole business model conversation yeah never was discussed at Cisco live before yeah in depth as well hey run your business connect your hubs campus move packets around that was applications in business model yeah but also the fact that there is increasing number of software capabilities and so fundamental you want to simplify the life of your customers through subscription models that help the customer by now using what they really need right at any given point in time all the way to having enterprise agreements I also think that's about delivering these application experiences for your business small different type experience that's really what's differentiating you from your different competitors right and so I think that's a different type of shift as well well you guys are good got some good angle on this cloud I love it I got to ask you the question what can we expect next from Cisco more progression along clarification what's next well I would say we've been incredibly consistent I believe in the last few years in executing on our cloud strategy which again is centered around helping customers really gluon this mix set of data centers and clouds to make it work as one write as much as possible and so what we really deliver is networking security and application of performance management and we're integrating there's more and more on the two sides of the equation right the the designer side and the powerful outside and more more integrating in between all of these layers again to fundamentally give you this operational capability to get faster and faster we'll continue doing so and you set up before we came on camera that you were talking to the sales teams what are they what's their vibe with the sales team they get excited by this what's that oh yeah feedback oh yeah absolutely from the inner side were claw optimizer and they have dynamics that's very exciting for them especially the conversations they're having with their customers really from that application experience and proactively insuring it and on the hyper flex application platform side this is extremely exciting with providing a container cloud to our customers and you know what's coming down is more and more capabilities for our customers to modernize their applications on hyper flex you guys are riding some pretty big waves here at Cisco I get a cloud way to get the IOT Security wave it's pretty exciting pretty big stuff thanks for coming in thanks for sharing the insights Fabio I appreciate it thank you for having us your coverage here in Barcelona I'm John Force dude Minutemen be back with more coverage fourth day of four days of cube coverage we right back after this short break [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] why Trump Barcelona Spain it's the cube covering Cisco live 2020 rot to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners welcome back to Barcelona everybody we're here at Cisco live and you're watching the cube the leader in live tech coverage we got to the events and extract the signal from the noise this is day one really we started a zero yesterday Eric Hertzog is here he's the CMO and vice president of storage channels probably been on the cube more than [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] live from Barcelona Spain it's the cube covering Cisco live 2020 rot to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners welcome back everyone's two cubes live coverage day four of four days of wall-to-wall action here in Barcelona Spain Francisco live 2020 I'm John Ferrier with mykos Dave Volante with a very special guest here to wrap up Cisco live the president of Europe Middle East Africa and Russia Francisco Wendy Mars cube alumni great to see you thanks for coming on to kind of put a bookend to the show here thanks for joining us right there it's absolutely great to be here thank you so what a transformation as Cisco's business model of continues to evolve we've been saying brick by brick we still think is a big move coming I think there's more action I can sense the walls talking to us like let's just go live in the US and more technical announcements in the next 24 months you can see you can see where it's going it's cloud its apps yeah its policy based program ability it's really a whole nother business model shift for you and your customers the technology shift and the business model shift so I want to get your perspective of this year opening key no you let it off talking about the philosophy of the business model but also the first presenter was not a networking guy it was an application person yeah app dynamics yep this is a shift what's going on with Cisco what's happening what's the story well you know if you look for all of the work that we're doing is but is really driven by what we see from requirements from our customers the change that's happening in the market and it is all around you know if you think digital transformation is the driver organizations now are incredibly interested in how do they capture that opportunity how do they use technology to help them but you know if you look at it really there's the three items that are so important it's the business model evolution it's actually the business operations for for organisations plus their people there are people in the communities within that those three things working together and if you look at it with you know it's so exciting with application dynamics there because if you look for us within Cisco that linkage of the application layer through into the infrastructure into the network and bringing that linkage together is the most powerful thing because that's the insight and the value our customers are looking for you know we've been talking about the in the innovation sandwich you know you got you know date in the middle and you got technology and applications underneath that's kind of what's going on here but you I'm glad you brought up the year the part about business model business operations and people in communities because during your keno you had a slide that laid out three kind of pillars yes people in communities business model and business operations there was no 800 series in there there was no product discussions this is fundamentally the big shift that business models are changing I tweeted provocatively the killer app and digital the business model because you think about it the applications are the business and what's running under the covers is the technology but it's all shifting and changing so every single vertical every single business is impacted by this it's not like a certain secular thing in the industry this is a real change can you describe how those three things are operating with that constitute think if you look from you know so thinking through those three areas if you look at the actual business model itself our business models as organizations are fundamentally changing and they're changing towards as consumers we are all much more specific about what we want we have incredible choice in the market we are more informed than ever before but also we are interested in the values of the organizations that were getting the capability from as well as the products and the services that naturally we're looking to gain so if you look in that business model itself this is about you know organizations making sure they stay ahead from a competitive standpoint about the innovation of portfolio that they're able to bring but also that they have a strong strong focus around the experience that their customer gains from an application a touch standpoint that all comes through those different channels which is at the end of the day the application then if you look as to how do you deliver that capability through the systems the tools and the processes as we all evolve our businesses you have to change the dynamic within your organization to cope with that and then of course in driving any transformation the critical success factor is your people and your culture you need your teams with you the way teams operate now is incredibly different it's no longer command and control its agile capability coming together you need that to deliver on any transformation never never mind let it be smooth you know in the execution there so it's all three together what I like about that model and I have to say we this is you know ten years to do in the cube you you see that marketing in the vendor community often leads what actually happens not surprising as we entered the last decade it was a lot of talk about cloud well it kind of was a good predictor we heard a lot about digital transformations a lot of people roll their eyes and think it's a buzzword but we really are I feel like an exiting this cloud era into the digital era it feels real and there are companies that you know get it and are leaning in there are others that maybe you're complacent I'm wondering what you're seeing in in Europe just in terms of everybody talks digital yeah be CEO wants to get it right but there is complacency there when it's a services say well I'm doing pretty well not on my watch others say hey we want to be the disruptors and not get disrupted what are you seeing in the region in terms of that sentiment I would say across the region you know there will always be verticals and industries that are slightly more advanced than others but I would say that then the bulk of conversations that I'm engaged in independence of the industry or the country in which we're having that conversation in there is a acceptance of transfer digital transformation is here it is affecting my business i if I don't disrupt I myself will be disrupted and be challenged help me so I you know I'm not disputing the end state I need guidance and support to drive the transition and a risk mythic mitigated manner and they're looking for help in that and there's actually pressure in the boardroom now around a what are we doing within within organizations within that enterprise the service right of the public said to any type of style of company there's that pressure point in the boardroom of come on we need to move it speed now the other thing about your model is technology plays a role in contribute it's not the be-all end-all but plays a role in each of those the business model of business operations and developing and nurturing communities can you add more specifics what role do you see technology in terms of advancing those three spheres so I think you know if you look at it technology is fundamental to all of those spheres in regard to the innovation the differentiation technology can bring then the key challenges one of being able to reply us in a manner where you can really see differentiation of value within the business so in then the customers organization otherwise it's just technology for the sake of technology so we see very much a movement now to this conversation of talk about the use case the use cases the way by which that innovation can be used to deliver the value to the organization and also different ways by which a company will work look at the collaboration capability that we announced earlier this week of helping to bring to life that agility look at the app D discussion of helping to link the layer of the application into the infrastructure the network's to get to root cause identification quickly and to understand where you may have a problem before you thought it actually arises and causes downtime many many ways I think the agility message has always been a technical conversation a gel methodology technology software development no problem check that's ten years ago but business agility mmm it's moving from a buzzword to reality exactly that's what you're kind of getting in here and teams how teams operate how they work you know and being able to be quick efficient stand up stand down and operate in that way you know we were kind of thinking out loud on the cube and just riffing with Fabio gory on your team on Cisco's team about clarification with Eugene Kim around just just kind of real-time what was interesting is we're like okay it's been 13 years since the iPhone and so 13 years of mobile in your territory in Europe Middle East Africa mobilities been around before the iPhone so with in more advanced data privacy much more advanced in your region so you got you out you have a region that's pretty much I think the tell signs for what's going on in North America and around the world and so you think about that you say okay how is value created how the economics changing this is really the conversation about the business model is okay if the value activities are shifting and be more agile and the economics are changing with sass if someone's not on this bandwagon it's not an in-state discussion where it's done deal yeah it's but I think also there were some other conversation which which are very prevalent here is in in the region so around trust around privacy law understanding compliance you look at data where data resides portability of that data GDP are came from Europe you know and as ban is pushed out and those conversations will continue as we go over time and if I also look at you know the dialogue that you saw so you know within World Economic Forum around sustainability that is becoming a key discussion now within government here in Spain you know from a climate standpoint and many other areas as well Dave and I've been riffing around this whole where the innovation is coming from it's coming from Europe region not so much the u.s. I mean us discuss some crazy innovations but look at blockchain us is like don't touch it pretty progressive outside United States little bit dangerous to but that's where innovation is coming from and this is really the key that we're focused on I want to get your thoughts on how do you see it going next level the next level next-gen business model what's your what's your vision so I think there'll be lots of things if we look at things like with the introduction of artificial intelligence robotics capability 5g of course you know on the horizon we have Mobile World Congress here in Barcelona in a few weeks time and if you talked about with the iPhone the smartphone of course when 4G was introduced no one knew what the use case would that would be it was the smartphone which wasn't around at that time so with 5g in the capability there that will bring again yet more change to the business model for different organizations and the capability and what we can bring to market when we think about AI privacy data ownership becomes more important some of the things you were talking about before it's interesting what you're saying John and when the the GDP are set the standard and and you see in the u.s. there are stovepipes for that standard California is going to do one every state is going to have a different center that's going to slow things down that's going to slow down progress do you see sort of an extension of a GDP are like framework of being adopted across the region and that potentially you know accelerating some of these you know sticky issues and public policy issues that can actually move the market forward I think I think the will because I think there'll be more and more you know if you look at there's this terminology of data is the new oil what do you do with data how do you actually get value from that data and make intelligent business decisions around that so you know that's critical but yet if you look for all of ours we are extremely passionate about you know where is our data used again back to trust and privacy you need compliance you need regulation you know I think this is just the beginning of how we will see that evolve you know when do I get your thoughts does Dave and I have been riffing for 10 years around the death of storage long live storage and but data needs to be stored somewhere networking is the same kind of conversation just doesn't go away in fact there's more pressure now forget the smartphone that was 13 years ago before that mobility data and video now super important driver that's putting more pressure on you guys and so hey we're networking so it's kind of like Moore's law it's like more networking more networking so video and data are now big your thoughts on video and data video but if you look at the Internet of the future you know what so if you look for all of us now we are also demanding as individuals around capability and access to that and inter vetted the future the next phase we want even more so there'll be more and more - you know requirement for speed availability that reliability of service the way by which we engage and we communicate there's some fundamentals there so continuing to to grow which is which is so so exciting for us so you talk about digital transformation that's obviously in the mind of c-level executives I got to believe security is up there as a topic what other what's the conversation like in the corner office when you go visit your customers so I think that there's a huge excitement around the opportunity realizing the value of the of the opportunity you know if you look at top of mind conversations are around security around making sure that you can make tank maintain that fantastic customer experience because if you don't the custom will go elsewhere how do you do that how do you enrich at all times and also looking at markets adjacencies you know as you go in and you talk at senior levels within within organizations independent of the industry in which they're in there are a huge amount of commonalities that we see across those of consistent problems by which organizations are trying to solve and actually one of the big questions is what's the pace of change that I should operate at and when is it too fast and when is what am I too slow and trying to balance that is exciting but also a challenge for companies so you feel like sentiment is still strong even though we're 10 years into this this bull market you know you got Briggs it you get you know China tensions with the US u.s. elections but but generally you see Tennessee sentiment still pretty strong and demand so I would say that the the excitement around technology the opportunity that is there around technology in its broadest sense is greater than ever before and I think it's on all of us to be able to help organizations to understand how they can consume I see value from us but it's you know it's fantastic science it tastes trying to get some economic indicators but really the real thing I'm trying to get you is Minh set of the CEO the corner office right now is it is it we're gonna we're gonna grow short-term by cutting or do we do are we gonna be aggressive and go after this incremental opportunity and it's probably both you're seeing a lot of automation yeah and I think if you look fundamentally for organizations it's it's that the three things helped me to make money how me to save money keep me out of trouble you know so those are the pivots they all operate with and you know depending on where an organization is in its journey whether a start-up there you know in in the in the mid or the more mature and some of the different dynamics and the markets in which they operate in as well there's all different variables you know so it's it's it's mix Wendy thanks so much for spending the time to come on the cube really appreciate great keynote folks watching if you haven't seen the keynote opening sections that's a good section the business model I think it's really right on I think that's going to be a conversation it's going to continue thanks for sharing that before we look before we leave I want to just ask you a question around what you what's going on for you here at Barcelona as the show winds down you had all your activities take us in the day of the life of what you do customer meetings what were some of those conversations take us inside inside what what goes on for you here well I'd say it's been an amazing it's been an amazing few days so it's a combination of customer conversations around some of the themes we just talked about conversations with partners and there's investor companies that we invest in a Cisco that I've been spending some time with and also you know spending time with the teams as well the DEF net zone you know is amazing we have this afternoon the closing session where we've got a fantastic external guest who's coming in it's going to be really exciting as well and then of course the party tonight and we'll be announcing the next location which I'm not gonna reveal now later on today we kind of figured it out already because that's our job and there's the break news but we're not gonna break it for you you can have that hey thank you so much for coming on really appreciate Wendy Martin expecting the Europe Middle East Africa and Russia for Cisco she's got our hand on the pulse and the future is the business model that's what's going on fundamental radical change across the board in all areas this the cue bringing you all the action here in Barcelona thanks for watching [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music]

from the silicon angle media office in Boston Massachusetts it's the queue now here's your host David on tape hello everyone and welcome to this special cube conversation you know Hewlett Packard Enterprise has gone through one of the most significant transformations in the history of the tech business once a much larger in far-flung conglomerate HP as you know split in two and now HPE is much more focused and has a completely different posture with respect to technology partners so today we're gonna focus in on the big drivers of innovation in the technology business data AI and cloud and get HPE spointer222 digging to two areas of growth hyper-converged infrastructure and intelligence storage I also want to share some ETR data using simply and nimble as proxies for these markets finally we want to peek into some of the spending data in HPE zico system to see how a more partner friendly HPE is faring and with me today is Patrick Osbourne Patrick is the vice president and GM of big data analytics and scale-out data platforms at Hewlett Packard Enterprise and a friend of the cube Patrick always a pleasure thanks for coming in thanks so much for having him so let me set it up here and I want to share some spending data with our audience Alex if you bring up the the first slide I want to show is this shows the the latest spending data just released from ETR on the various segments and you and it's a double y-axis and you can see in the left hand side is the average spend represented by the size of the charts on the right hand side is the growth rate represented by the dots and I've highlighted in green some of the key areas that we're going to talk about analytics bi big data you can see 12% still pretty big market even ten years into the big data theme cloud computing you know growing 15 16 % ml AI 17% you can see the container space is growing it between 15 and and 20 percent so Patrick let's start with what's in your title the big data you know the analytics piece you know what are you seeing there what's HP story yes so that's been a area growth for us within HPE not only from an infrastructure but also a services play we've got a number of you know big partners in the traditional you know big data space we made a number of you know strategic acquisitions over the last two years in this area specifically around blue data nap are so these areas that customers are in you know continue to invest in in the macro area are very important and well I think one of the things you're seeing here from a growth perspective is that they're also bringing in some very adjacent markets with AI and ml so it's part of an entire workflow so you start off with bi analytics big data and we have a number of solutions around that area and then starting to add in things like AI AM LDL into that analytics work workflow so it's been really good for us you're really kind of adding into your portfolio they're like say the map bar acquisition they they kind of were one of the the big three that started that whole big data movement and then now you have this organizations with these troves of data and they're trying to figure out okay what do we do with it and that's really where machine intelligence or AI comes in isn't it absolutely and not only you know we're we providing a number of solutions for customers in this area but we're using it ourselves to write to you know enhance our customer experience enhance our automation support automation I definitely give a you know much better customer experience with our storage and data platforms so wait you send your practitioners of AI to make your customers lives better by M you're saying by embedding that into storage platform you know if you take a look at a number of our marquee services that we have whether it's things like info site Green Lake even a rubra central you know think about some of the things that we do at the edge all that is being powered by AI right at the end of the day so we're using those techniques to improve the product and solution experiences for you know a number of our products everything from it started with nimble we added 3par now we've got simplicity in the info site and as we start to bring together some of the workloads at the edge right with Aruba and things we're doing there it's you know the customers are obviously voting with their dollars all right let's talk about cloud generally but specifically I want to get into hybrid containers McLeod has permanently changed you know our industry everybody wants to bring that cloud model on Prem it's clearly a hybrid world you could see containers really growing Stu Minutemen has a premise that look containers and kubernetes that we treat them as a separate thing but it's really being embedded into all parts of the portfolio so what's your point of view on on containers hybrid bring us up to speed on what HPE is doing there yeah so that's definitely fueling a lot of our growth not only in what you think about the traditional storage segments but as well as HCI right so you know when we talk later about some of the growth we're seeing nimble and simplicity we've got a number of solutions that sit you know directly within this container container orchestration container management we've got you know things that we develop on our own we made a huge announcement at kuba con right around the HPE container platform so for customers that want to run these analytics AI ml very data oriented applications that run in containers we have a great platform for that an HP container platform we could run that on bare metal we can run that in simplicity for example so we're seeing a lot of fuel for that not only just servicing some of the storage and data needs for containers right but also being able to provide an info site like experience for this new generation of application development and were close how do you see the edge fitting into this you know we interviewed Antonio recently with John Chambers at the pensando announcement and and that was kind of interesting you see do you see that as a as a pendulum swing or sort of an expansion of the cloud if you will yeah I definitely see it as an expansion when we talk at HPE we want to be an edge to quarter cloud you know company and helping customers navigate the digital transformation in hybrid IT right and then we're gonna offer that to customers as a service through Green Lake we've been pretty public about that and so one of the big opportunities we see is around these distributed data centers some people define a distributed edge whether that's customers who are doing autonomous vehicles autonomous drilling we see a number of you know big-box retailers you know for example that don't necessarily have a traditional data center but it's not so far out into the edge that it's like an autonomous vehicle but they have you know the similar concerns in terms of a distributed nature how do you automate that how do you manage that at scale and so these assets that we bring together with things like Aruba and our edge line servers and managing that data experience is something that we're gonna capitalize on in FY 24-hour constant retail is interesting right every Nevitt has a Amazon war room but many sectors as a retailer really on fire right now people trying to take advantage of their their store presence yep when IOT is a big factor there so you're seeing a lot of that action is HP yeah absolutely and those customer those customers of ours are fueling their growth through digital transformation so they're using containers and kubernetes and this new style of application development and they want to be able to distribute those data centers and that data but they also have to make it simple right so you see the march towards what we you know are platforms like simplicity for HCI some of the offerings we have around you know independently scalable three-tiered architectures but you get the best of HCI with that we call it nimble d HCI all right so we have a number offerings for customers who you know really want that scale and in serviceability alright let's let's let's pivot a little bit and talk about some of that infrastructure Alice you bring up the next slide what I want to talk to here is this is the ETR data every time they do one of these surveys they ask essentially you're spending more are you spending less and they subtract the less from the more and that's what they call net score net score remember is a measure of spending momentum now what we've done here is you can see the filtered end of 313 HPE customers out of the thousand plus survey respondents of this quarter and you can see a good mix of enterprise size and industry and it's a lot of North America but but good regional - and we're showing the net scores breakdown for for two of your platforms simplicity which is the HCI and nimble storage and you can see the bright green is people adding to the platform the sort of darker green is spending more so let's start with Pleasant levity HCI still a really hot in growing space you've got a nets or of 38 percent almost which is very very strong in ETR parlance you know it's not off the charts like some new tech but it's really really solid so what's the update on simplicity and HCI yeah so I mean this is obviously from from a market perspective HCI is a rapidly growing space still right there's a lot of room for growth both Brown field as well as green field opportunities in the core data center at the edge even in hybrid cloud format so for us it's all about new logo acquisition for simplicity we've shown a phenomenal growth rate for that technology stack developed here in Massachusetts are a great local company great story and so for us this HCI the the markets that we're playing in we take a look at storage and data management in general sub segments of the market are growing rapidly right take a look at HCI you take a look at SDS you take a look at all flash and so we have some great offerings in that space that are completely differentiated from a customer experience and a technology experience and they work together so for example simplicity we just announced earlier in the and later in the calendar year in 2019 that we would be offering simple ibbity with an info site right so you have the same experience that you get from nimble right you get with our HCI products so we're driving those experiences together obviously you know all flash is a huge growing category within storage nimble it's got some great growth they're not only just for new logo adoptions but expansion capability so we're you know - two great products that were seeing some success in yeah so let's talk about nimble the Alex could show that data again so neighborhoods got a net score of 46 percent which again a lot of momentum I mean smaller you know sample size but still really you know strong and you can see it's a more mature market so you see maybe fewer adoptions but almost 50 percent of your customers are saying they're gonna spend more this this quarter relative to last period so that's showing momentum you mentioned info site which is really the technology that sort of nimble brought to your company which are pushing out through the portfolio so your thoughts on that yes so I mean at the end of the day customers are you know the products themselves are great and they provide the customers a really good experience we're driving all that together at a meta layer right so we talked about the products and solutions for us the strategies around the intelligent data platform right so we have a number of platforms that can help dress a number of different workloads whether it's HCI disaggregated HCI whether it's all flash whether it's you know container workloads and container orchestration but we want to provide a very good experience that you can consume as a service and we're driving that together across product lines with data services that work both on Prem and in the cloud right so we have HPE cloud volumes and a number of our Cloud Data Services that tie these platforms together so for us it's all about a strategy around this intelligent data platform not just individual products the individual products are great but from a strategy perspective that is definitely resounding with customers well you talked about digital transformation earlier Patrick I think that's important it's it customers want solutions they don't want to certainly don't want to provision loans they don't want to think about managing boxes so they really want that infrastructure to be invisible they want to push their folks up the stack yep to just do more strategic things and it's it's really your Rd that they're looking toward to automate a lot of those mundane tasks isn't it yeah they look towards RI Rd as well as they look to HPE as a portfolio company to bring together a solution stack that's gonna work for them and sometimes that solution stack is comprised of some of our partners as well so we pick some of the best partners in the industry to go work with in some of these hottest you know portions of the market that are growing significantly so in the areas of HCI or in the areas of software-defined storage you know we've got a number of folks that we that we partner with hybrid cloud and we are able to bring you know a full complete solution to a customer and we D risk that for our customers at the end of the day right we've got some great partnerships with some great companies and that's really you know suited HP very well well great segue let's talk about some of those partnerships so you when when hewlett-packard split into two companies it opened up a ton of opportunities for partnerships for you guys you got a great distribution channel and what I'm showing here Alex on this next slide if you bring this up is three partners that are gaining a lot of momentum based on the spending ETR spending data in the surveys Kohi City theme and Nutanix now remember ETR uses this concept of of net score which we talked about and I'm gonna talk about that a little bit but also market share market share is a measure of pervasiveness in other words how how much there be mentioned inside of the service so I'm showing here market shares but also net scores and you can see Kohi city is just starting in the survey so starting to you know get more noticed and then you can see Veeam and Nutanix you know with the consistent long steady market share growth this is again within the hewlett-packard enterprise account based at 313 respondents so you can see there all three are doing very well and and look at the net scores for cohesive off-the-charts 74% growing very very rapidly again smaller sample size Nutanix much larger sample size you know 60% net score so very very strong in Veen you know surprisingly for a pretty mature company with a 45% net score again very very strong so talk about the the partnerships the new HPE partner posture and then we can maybe get into what you're seeing in the market with some of these partners yes so from for HPE you know we listen to our customers in terms of you know what their their challenges are part of my business is managing around scale out data platforms and so the data is always growing and so we're seeing you know this big trend of scale out architectures powered by you know ubiquitous very high bandwidth low latency networking in the data center and outside the data center and so we're able to you know put some of these software stacks on our infrastructure that works very well with our our you know our own IP solutions and you know solve a number of critical problems for customers around secondary storage right it's growing you want to make use of it to backup and disaster recovery it's always a problem it's definitely an opportunity around hybrid cloud HCI in SDS right it has many forms and flavors right and we want to be able to provide those solutions to our customers especially if you're doing hybrid or private cloud so a lot of these partners you know we want to you know provide a full stack solution to our customers and you know these have partners help us do that how are you I mean the the you've got HCI wouldna Tanic you've got HCI with simplicity you've got sort of certainly beam and cohesively compete up how do you guys position and the a let's start with the HCI piece huh you just let customers sort of direct you and guide you or you guide them how does that all work yeah I mean we always listen to the customer first but at the end of the day we you know we lead with our own IP and we have some you know we have two great solutions around the HCI framework where you going for a very simple very scalable solution in simplicity that has some very powerful data services great economics for the HCI market and you know you see the growth and sympathy for that then we have a number of other solutions specifically around nimble called DHC I write what we're finding is that customers as a classic customers that want to they want the simplicity of management that you'd get from from HCI but they also want to be able to independently scale your compute your networking and your storage and we're able to provide that with something like nimble ProLiant our networking stack and then plug that all into info sites and it works together right so at the end of the day if I having a workload that's more appropriate to work it's on simply as a platform or it's more appropriate for DHC i we can recognize that for our customers through predictive analytics we can automate the placement of that workload and then we provide customers a set of data services so those platforms work together so it really works out well okay and then in terms of well take the situation with Nutanix so that's a customer saying hey we want you guys to work together and you say great yeah problem absolutely we'll do that so that you know we have a set of recipes and and reference architectures and offerings around those that are available direct was well through the channel and is it fair to say that the Dean viii mispronounced be even though they tried a big push in the enterprise you're a part of that that push in and and of course you know cookie city's the hot new kid in the block again is it just sort of market pull that drives that or do you have yeah I mean we definitely theme has been recognized as a great solution for customers doing you know start off you know certainly focused directly on on virtualization and then you know their their strategy is moved and you know to a very adjacent market which is how do i you know tackle that virtualization and VMS and protecting my data but in a hybrid cloud in formats so they're definitely all in on cloud I think cohesive has a very scalable file system back in and it started off with backup and recovery and now is moving into some very adjacent use cases around file secondary storage what can I do around see ICD pipelines so it's kind of approaching it from different different angles you guys really kind of changing your marketing and your product marketing really focusing more on solutions yes outcomes customer outcomes bringing that cloud model to wherever your data lives whether it's on prem at the edge talking about bringing containers throughout the portfolio bring it home what are you sort of hoping for 2020 looks like what are some of those outcomes and what should we expect from from your perspective from HP yeah so I mean we at HPE are very focused on this edge to court a cloud concept hybrid IT so all of our products have you know some sort of endemic whether it's data services or a management paradigm around hybrid cloud and so we you know we we really are you'll see that within our products product releases solution releases the people that we partner with and I think the big thing that we you know pivoted it into at the end of 2019 you'll see this accelerate significantly in 2020 is around this consumption model right the cloud consumption model with Greenlake so we talked a little bit of you know certainly Green Lake from a financial perspective but awful Green Lake as a management paradigm so Green Lake central was announced at the end of the year and just the ability to be able to you know like you do in the top of cloud right but top of private cloud or top of hybrid cloud from HPE and get a really good visibility financially into you into what you're doing it's a mindset too from the top I mean Antonio is saying everything is a service right absolutely yeah so all right Patrick hey thanks for coming in and give us the update on on HPE good luck this year and great to see it yeah thank you very much you're welcome and thank you for watching everybody this is Dave a lot day for the cube we'll see you next time thanks for watching

(upbeat instrumental music) >> Hello, everyone. Welcome to another great CUBE Conversation here in Palo Alto, our CUBE Studio, I'm John Furrier. We've got a great conversation with a friend Saar Gillai CUBE alumni. Saar is an executive, coaching startups, investing, was in Silicon Valley, sees a lot of the landscape, knows networking, knows cloud. Saar, great to see you. Thanks very much. >> It's great to be here again as always. >> Yeah, love having you come in and be an analyst for us and help us squint through some of the big mega trends that we're following. As you know, we believe that cloud is here to stay. And I'm always chirping, certainly online about how Amazon clearly way ahead of Microsoft Google has a great network, and you and I we going to to talk more about that. But the game is just getting started and compute is phase one of the game of cloud. >> Saar: Correct. >> Completely been commoditized it's serverless, a lot of great things are helping developers. This next wave of networking is going to be the next battleground of innovation and certainly transformation. This is your wheelhouse, you've seen this movie, from old school networking to telcos to now, we're in the middle of it. What's your take on networking? Because we're going to be at Cisco Live Barcelona next week. But you have a good view into the overall landscape. Tell us what are you seeing? >> Sure, no, I mean, I think you said it right. I mean, basically if you look at what happened in computing in the last decade plus or minus in terms of the the advent of the public cloud and the cloud model and automation, even if you're using private cloud, you know, that is all going to, what happened last 10 years there is going to happen in networking in the next 10 years. Because, you know, there's no reason why these things aren't going to happen. The cloud has changed the model people work, people expect to be as a service. More and more of the network traffic is moving from the enterprise into the cloud, or to reach the cloud and that's changing how important is in a network, it's changing how the network's going to operate. >> The cloud certainly has been game changing. And I want to get your thoughts on this. You call it, and before we came on camera I'll make sure we get this out, the cloudification of networking. >> Saar: Correct. >> And this is a term that you coined, what is that mean? Tell us what is cloudification of networking? >> Sure well there are different elements to it, right. But, you know, I think if you look, I think the first thing that's important is to look at it from the user perspective, like what does it mean from a user, right? So if you look at the classic network, you know, 10 years ago most of your traffic is in your campus and in your own data center. And you're using standard Cisco switches, you know, you've got, you know, some hierarchical system you've got your data center, you're using six K's in there, set of nexuses whatever, you've got your end switches some WiFi, that's what the world looks like, that's where everything goes. And you may have someone WAN with MPLS and maybe things like that. But, you know, that's not a big use or some internet use, the internet, but that's not your mission-critical network. If you now fast forward to 2020. I can't even say that >> It's like you've been 10 years. >> 2020 is like, you know, God, all of a sudden, from user perspective, where are you getting your packets from, right? Most of your stuff in a public cloud. So your traffic, whether you're in enterprise or at home, is typically going toward the cloud. The cloud itself has its own very complicated network of 100 gig up to even getting going to 400 gig at some point connections, massive, massive data centers, fully automated, right? In the campus is all Wi-Fi, but again most of the traffic is back and forth to the cloud. So if you look at the network architecture the network architecture you have, the cloud now has completely changed the network architecture from being mostly internal to all being from you to the public cloud. And the public cloud itself now has become such a super compute system, that's like a massive computer. And of course massive computer has massive networking. Now when you think about cloud, so that's from a user perspective. Now let's talk about what this actually means. So first of all, you know, when you think about the cloud, okay, what has enabled the cloud? I mean, the cloud there's nothing special about the cloud. It's a bunch of CPUs and coordinate jobs, okay, but it can happen fast. Why can it happen fast? 'Cause it's automated, right? It's all automated it's all software, right? It's CICD develop, deploy, boom, boom, boom, right? There's nothing you're doing there that you couldn't do 20 years ago it just would take a year instead of a day because nothing was automated, okay. Now you look at networking right? That means that everything is going to be automated and software-centric. So, you know, if you look at the way the network is today, classically, right, it's not really automated. Yes, people have done some scripting and so forth, but it's not an automated dynamic environment that is software-centric. So if you look at, for example, the data center that people are building, if you look at the big public cloud guys have deployed, right, they have deployed a very automated system. You look it and say, "Well how many SIS admins "there are per how many nodes right?" And the ratio is in these public clouds are things that you've never seen in enterprise. So you're seeing the data centers becoming these very cloud-centric networks. And then you're seeing the whole traffic pattern change, where you're mission-critical network now is from where you are to the public cloud over the WAN. And this is what's driving, you know, the evolution of SD-WAN. >> So essentially WAN used to be old school, you had your local area network you mentioned the data center and PCs all connected, hubs and printers. And then you go out over the wide area network to something else, another building another data center maybe third party cloud and and other storage. Now you're saying it's all, essentially, going to the cloud. So WAN is the new LAN then. >> And what happens also is that you quickly get on one of these big networks. So you, you know, you think about, okay, what does the LAN look like, right? Historically the WAN was a bunch of links between data centers, you know, you had leased lines you could go from, you know, you had like every enterprise had I don't know 20, 30 data centers worldwide and then be linked in the WAN. Now what you do is you get on the first connection into an Amazon or Google or Microsoft network and then you're in their network. And so these guys have massive networks. Like, if you ask me, "Who's got the biggest "most impressive WAN? It's Google. They built it for themselves, right. If you put a-- >> So you're saying Google's the best network. of all the clouds? >> Yes, and it's not necessarily long, they don't have it long term, but Google has always been crazy about performance, right. They're crazy about performance because that, you know, it's about how fast can you get a search result and so on-- >> And they had (chuckles), that's money, speed is money to Google, right. >> Speed is money to Google and so Google have, from day one, looked at ways to optimize their network, their internal network, and the Google Cloud gets the benefit of that, right. They are crazy about performance. So they have, Microsoft is getting better, they're working a lot on it. And Amazon I think is now, Amazon is very good inside their network. So they built a lot of, they've been very focused on how fast their internal, like, their data center between the servers and so on. They did Annapurna and they did all kinds of optimizations there, which have actually led the industry. But when you go into the WAN, that hasn't been a big focus for Amazon to date. >> And Google's got great security too they've have lot of security. >> So, you know, from a inside a data center perspective I would say that Amazon is top. Once you start talking about the WAN connection, Google is the best. >> All right, so I'm trying to pull this together. So the cloudification of networking means, if I hear you correctly is, what the LAN used to mean with the data center. You had a data center and you had LANs there was a campus or whatever, is now the cloud. The cloud is now the new data center, and that's the WAN is now the new LAN? >> Correct, exactly correct. The data center is the cloud, the LAN is the WAN, yep. >> So, okay, I get that. By the way I agree with that, I think there's going to be a massive disruption-- >> And again there's a long tail. So you can easily say to me, "No, well look, look at all these LAN's." Sure my future is here, it's not evenly distributed, okay. There's a long tail, nothing's disappearing, but today-- >> How many NICs are in the PCs on the desk these days? Probably not a lot of PCs and no, NICs only Wi-Fi. >> It's Wi-Fi and also, look, there's the question you have to ask is, how many data centers does the average enterprise have? How many new data centers have been commissioned? You know, when I was at HP a decade ago whatever, right? We had data centers up the wazoo, that's where everything was, right. Nobody commission's data centers now. The only people buying data centers are cloud guys. >> Yeah, and we'll get to Equinix comp share I want to get to the Outpost with Amazon, 'cause I think that hybrid edge is an interesting trend that will come into the whole network edge thing. But let's stay on this WAN thing because if you're saying, and I'm agreeing with you, that what the LAN was to the data center you have WAN to the cloud. >> Saar: Correct. >> So if the cloud disrupts and creates an innovative enabling opportunity for startups and the clouds to create new value, it's going to be there. So with that being said, if you believe that, what happens to the old SD-WAN markets because the old SD-WAN was a riverbed was a box you connected one thing to another, in other words-- >> So again, first of all on paper it's a revolution, in the market it's an evolution (laughs). And so, you know, SD-WAN itself has been moving in different directions, you know, it started off with just, okay, we do choices. Now, it's more about WAN and you still have the telcos who are offering services with boxes in front of them. And that's not a bad businesses, it's growing. But, over time, the question you want to have to ask is, if the Amazon or the Google or whatever network becomes bigger and bigger and bigger, how many hops do I need before I just get on their cloud, and then I'm just under cloud and they have a massive internal network? >> I love the expression it's not your grandfather's blank, has always been am expression. So it's not your grandfather's SD-WAN would mean, like, if you look at, like, all the incumbent players you got Cisco even with VMware, they all SD-WAN players. But SD-WAN's different now. So what does SD-WAN look like because you have startups coming out, you have security companies, I'm covering the news on security companies that are becoming SD-WAN. >> Because the firewall, the firewall and your Wanax is becoming the same thing. So if you're a Palo Alto, if you're a firewall company, or if you're an SD-WAN company's security and if your firewall company, right, you need to have SD-WAN, it's becoming the same thing. The firewall used to be the entry point into your network. And now it's SD-WAN, because that's like a distributed firewall, right, that's your perimeter. And so now the difference what's happening in SD-WAN is, you know, in the early days of SD-WAN it was about choice like you basically said, okay, "I can put my slow traffic "or my less important traffic on standard internet "and I can put my important traffic "on my expensive MPLS links, right?" Problem is MPLS is not very dynamic, and people want a lot more capabilities. And so now it's much more intelligent where you have various players saying, "No, I can give you a faster link" not over, like, Teridion the company I used to work for did that, as well as other companies, as well, and so now it's becoming a lot more sophisticated in that. It's like, okay, give me the traffic and I'll figure out how to get it across. And a lot of people are saying you don't even need MPLS anymore. But the thing that's important to understand about the SD-WAN is-- >> That was locked down traffic routes that was essentially application workloads that were earmarked to be high priority or value. Now you have dynamic-- >> Now it's dynamic, but I think the important thing that, the question that you need to ask yourself all the time is. What is the goal? Why does SD-WAN exist? >> John: That's my question. >> So SD-WAN, so why does WAN exist, right? So WAN exist because you want to connect to resources that are further than the LAN right? SD-WAN exists because the existing connections were either too expensive or too inflexible. So we figured out a software way to do that, which is better. But, if all you're trying to do is get to the cloud resources, and the cloud is expanding it's going to eventually push on SD-WAN. >> John: So I've got to ask you, why is there been a renaissance in SD-WAN, what's the reach? >> I don't think there's been a renaissance I think that-- >> John: It's kind of seems to be growing. >> But, it's not a renaissance, it's been growing I don't think it ever stopped. I mean, there was there software-defined networking, which was sort of all talk-- >> Why is SD-WAN exploding in popularity? >> It's exploding because of the cloud. Because what happens is, if you're an enterprise all your traffic now is going to the cloud, and you need a dynamic WAN to support that. MPLS isn't going to cut it anymore for you right? It's not dynamic, it's not flexible. Even if it's not expensive, it's too complicated and internationally too expensive. So if you have like offices all over the world and all they want to do is access your cloud your Salesforce and so forth. It doesn't work very well. It's not dependable. It's not a, unless you tie in a bunch of MPLS lines all the time, it's not very reliable. And so you want something that can do that reliably. >> And SaaS drives that the cloud and SaaS. >> SaaS drives it correct the consumption model of SaaS is driving the need for a better WAN. The current solution for a better WAN is different flavors of SD-WAN. >> I want to ask you about Cisco because one of the things I'm really been focused on is the evolution of Cisco. They own the routes, they have BGP, cloud has networking but there's some needs that the enterprise's might have, certainly at the edge and with the edge of the network, and Cisco has that position. The future of networking in the cloud application of networking if we take this to the next level is, puts a bulls eye on Cisco. It certainly shines a spotlight on their market position and potentially opportunities or losses that they may incur from it. So there's opportunities, there's scenarios of where they can gain big time. And there's scenarios where they could get flat-footed. What your thoughts on their position. >> That's a really good, I think that's a really good point. Look, the good news, so yes, if you look at what happened to the various incumbents in compute, you know, the move to cloud was interesting at best for them, right? And so obviously the cloudification of networking and the fact that more of it will be in the public cloud is going to present some challenges to the existing network players, The biggest one of course and probably the most capable of them being Cisco, of course. But the change will be different because networking, as all the networking geeks always say, is a bit different, right. I think the first thing that, the first challenge that Cisco faces is, you know, we're moving to, as a service, right? And they've started to understand that and, you know, you have like Meraki that provides everything as a service. So I think, they're just a business model thing, they would have to figure out, okay, well how do we charge? Because, you know, people are used to cloud, they're saying well I want everything as a service. I think the bigger challenge that I think-- >> That's working up for some, Nutanix took a year. They took a loss on their stock price for a year but the pivot moved. >> They have to move. And again you have to decide when you make that switch, the innovators dilemma right? Especially someone like Cisco's got massive business you know, you can't just say, "Oh this is cool let's go do that." >> John: Next week. >> So it's a difficult, it's obviously-- >> So they can do as a service. What else do you see? >> The can do as a service. I think the bigger issue for them is when you start doing as a service then the question is what assets do you own in the network on the WAN, right? Today, they tried to do this, when the cloud came up they had their multicloud, I forgot what they called it, and that really didn't play out because they weren't really a compute provider to do that, so that made sense. I think in the network they have a lot more assets. But I think they're going to have to own some assets I think to provide a network as a service they can go two ways, they can rely on the telcos. But, you know, I think CISCO's a bit more agile than the telcos, and I don't know that's going to work. They're trying to do that-- >> There's a new chip coming out. >> They're trying to do that to rely on the telcos to do this as a service. But I think ultimately they're going to have to figure out how to own some networking assets if they truly want to be a player here. >> When you say assets what do you mean by that? more assets-- >> A network, own networks, own a network. Like if you're looking at the, if you look at Amazon or Google so forth, right? They're owning, they're building out networks. If you want to do a network as a service and you don't own some assets, right. >> John: You're relying on someone else. >> You're relying on someone else, and, you know, that works, but, you know, like apple if you want to control the experience you need to own it. Now they understand, the good news about Cisco is, you know, they, Cisco understands all of this, they understand networking, they're very close to their customers, they see what's going on. But, you know, they have innovators dilemma they've got to deal with. >> I would agree, you think they understand what's going on? >> Yes. >> And they just haven't made their moves yet? >> They haven't made moves that are obvious. And also, you know, dilemmas are difficult, right, innovators dilemma, there's a reason why it's called the dilemma. If it wasn't a dilemma, then you'd just go, "Okay let's do this," right (chuckles). So it's easy to sit here and pontificate while they're protecting a whatever $50 billion business. I think that they understand they've got to make choices and they've got to pick the timing of when they do certain things. >> That's the key point. Sometimes the best decision is not to move, but also the time that they waste you can't get that back. So, timings everything here. Just in your opinion, if you were at Cisco what would you do? Get some assets? >> I think that historically when Cisco had to wanted to make big moves like this the way they got around waiting is acquisitions. So, you know, I think that they will have to acquire some, if they want to make this move they choose to make this move it will involve acquisitions, maybe deeper partnerships with some people who currently own networks. There are various players in that area, in that space. But historically, at least, that's been their playbook and that way, because they have a big checkbook, they can make up for the fact that they took their time. >> Yeah, but, also John Chambers addressed transitions with a lot of M&A and it ended up biting them in the butt a little bit because you've got to integrate it all. I personally think that Cisco's opportunity is to be the on ramp for multicloud, to own the edge, and I think they need to find their TCP/IP moment. If you go back to the OSI stack, that changed the game, that created Internetwork, and that created Cisco the open standards. And I see the whole world almost going to proprietary. I remember those days you had DECnet, SNA proprietary NAS, right, and what's interesting now is everyone's going back to these proprietary walled garden kind of models, you know, open source with a twist. So the question I'm looking at is that, is there going to be this interoperable layer, abstraction layer that could exist between creating cloudification of networking and more value? >> Look I think the opportunity, right, but again that opportunity requires a big investment. And Cisco has the ability to make that investment, is to be the on ramp to the multicloud. But that means your network has to be better than the cloud guys because you're honest broker, and to have a map, but you only have one massive footprint whether it's through partnerships or whatever, you have to have massive footprint, that footprint costs money. So like I said, I think if someone could do it, Cisco could do it, but, you know, they have the service providers who are their partners. So, you know, they may not be that happy, requires a big investment, requires a different mindset. I think they understand the challenge. I think, again, they have innovators dilemma, but it's an opportunity and a threat for them. >> Well, Saar, it's great to see you. I know you're just chilling out now advising, investing, you're clipping coupons sitting on the beach. >> Beats is hard, but you know. >> You're doing some fun things. Let's get you back in, there're some things I wanted to chat next time, 5G network automation. I think the analytics, auto tuning, AI is going to be a big thing. I think Wi-Fi application awareness. These are topics I would love to have you come in and do a drill down on, appreciate it. >> Always great to be here. >> Great. Saar Galli, friend of theCUBE. Now analysts here in our studio for future of networking. We're going to continue the series, more networking. Cloudification of networking a big trend, theCUBE is on it. It's going to impact the edge, it's going to impact enterprises, it's going to impact how we do business. And more importantly how software is being built. This is theCUBE here in Palo Alto I'm John Furrier. Thanks for watching (upbeat instrumental)

(funky music) >> Everyone, welcome to theCUBE studios here in Palo Alto for a CUBE Conversation, I'm John Furrier, we're here with a great guest, Balaji Sivasubramanian, did I get it right? Okay, okay, VP of product and business development at OpsMx, formerly with Cisco doing networking, now you're doing a lot of DevOps, you guys got a great little business there. Realtime hardcore DevOps. >> Absolutely, so we help large enterprises do the digital transformation to help them achieve that transformation. >> You know, Stu Miniman and I were talking about cloud-native, one of the reasons I wanted to bring you in was, we've been talking about cloud-native going mainstream. And cloud-native essentially codewords for cloud, microservices, essentially DevOps 2.0, whatever you want to call it, it's the mainstream of DevOps, DevOps for the past 10 years has been kind of reserved for the pioneers who built out using open source, to the fast followers, building large startups, to now larger companies, now DevOps is turning into cloud-native where you see in the cloud, born in the cloud, on-premises cloud operations, which is hybrid, and now the advent of multicloud, which really brings the edge conversation into view, really a disruption around networking, and data, and this is impacting developers. And pioneers like Netflix, used Spinnaker to kind of deploy, that's what you guys do, this is the real thread for the next 10 years is data, software, is now part of everyday developer life. Now bring that into DevOps, that seems to be a real flashpoint. >> Yeah, so if you look at some of the challenges enterprises have to get the velocity that they have, the technology was a barrier. So with the Docker option, with the Cloudred option, cloud basically made the infrastructure on demand, and then the Docker really allowed, Microsoft architecture allowed people to have velocity in development. Now their bottleneck has been, "Now I can develop faster, I can bring up infra faster, "but how do I deploy things faster?" Because at the end of the day, that's what is the last mile, so to say, of solving the full puzzle. So I think that's where things like Spinnaker or some of the new tools like Tekton and all those things coming up, that allows these enterprises to take their container-based applications, and functions in some cases, and deploy to various clouds, AWS or Google or Azure. >> Balaji, tell me about your view on cloud-native, you look at, just look at the basic data out there, you got AWS, you got KubeCon, which is really the Linux Foundation, CNCF, I mean the vendors that are in there, and the commercialization is going crazy. Then you got the cloud followers from Amazon, you got Azure basically pivoting Office 365 and getting more cloud action. They're investing heavily in Google GCP, Google Cloud Platform. All of 'em talk about microservices. What's your view of the state of cloud-native? >> Yeah, I think, I probably talked to hundreds of customers this last year, and these are large, Fortune 100, 200 companies to smaller companies. 100% of them are doing containers, 100% of them are doing Kubernetes in some fashion or form. If you look at larger enterprises like the financial sectors, and other, what do you call the more Fortune 100 companies, they do actually do OpenShift. RedHat OpenShift for their Kubernetes, even though Kubernetes is free, whatever, but they definitely look at OpenShift as a way to deploy container-based applications. And many of them are obviously looking at AKS, EKS and other cloud form factors of the same thing. And the most thing I've seen is AWS. EKS is the most common one, Azure some parts, and GKS somewhat, so I mean you know the market trend that's there. So essentially, AWS is where most of the developments are happening. >> What do you think about the mainstream IT, typical IT company that's driven by IT, they're transforming just a few, I'd say about a year ago, most hands were like "Oh, the big cloud providers are going to be "not creating an opportunity for the Splunks in the world, "and other people," but now with that shifting, mainstream companies going to the cloud, it's actually been good for those companies, so you're seeing that collision between pure cloud-native and typical corporation enterprise, that are moving to the cloud or moving to at least hybrid. That's helping these Splunks of the world, the Datadogs, and all these other companies. >> I think there's two attacks on those companies that you talk about. One is obviously the open source movement, it's attacking everything. So anything you have in IT is attacked by open source. Software is eating the world, but open source is eating software. Because software is easy to be open source. Hardware, you can't eat it, there's no open source, nobody's doing free hardware for you. But open source software is eating the software, in some sense, but anyway, so any software vendors are fully, everybody's considering open source first. Many companies are doing open source first, so if you want to look at Datadog or Prometheus, I may look at Prometheus. If I look at IBM uDeploy or Spinnaker, I may look at Spinnaker, so everything Kubernetes or maybe some other forms of communities. So I think these vendors that you talk about, one is the open source part of it, the other is that when you go to the cloud, the providers all provide the basic things already. If you look at Google Cloud, I was actually reading about Google networking a lot of things, lot of the load balancers, and all those things are inbuilt as part of the fabric. Things that you typically use, a router or a firewall or those things, they're all inbuilt, so why would I use a F5 load balancer and things like that? So I would say that I don't think their life is that easy, but there's definitely-- >> All right, so here's the question, who's winning and who's losing with cloud-native? I mean what is really going on in that marketplace, what's the top story, what's the biggest thing people should pay attention to, and who's winning and who's losing? >> I think the channelization of the cloud-native technology is definitely helping vendors like AWS, and basically the cloud vendors. Because no longer you have to go to VMware to get anything done, they have proprietary software that they had and you don't have to go there anymore, everybody can provide it, so the vendors, I would say the customers, obviously, because now they have more choices, they're not vendor locked in, they can go to EKS or AKS in a heartbeat and nothing happens. So customers and vendors are big winners. And then I would say the code providers are big winners. open source is really hurting some of the vendors we talked about earlier, I would say the big guys are the-- >> Cloud's getting bigger, the cloud guys are getting bigger and bigger, more powerful. What about VMware, you mentioned VMware, anything to their proprietary, they also run on AWS, natively, so they're still hanging around, they got the operators. But they're not hitting the devs, but they have this new movement with the Kubernetes, they acquired a company to do that. >> I would say that the AWS, VMware on AWS, essentially is, I would say almost a no-op for VMware in some sense, in some sense. They have to be, it's almost like a place to sell their ware. They used to be on-prem vendors already have the infrastructure, then VMware goes, sells to that customer A. Now the customer says that "I'm not using it on on-prem server A, "I'm on AWS, can you provide me the same software." So essentially, number one, by moving to the cloud, they're essentially selling to the same customers, the same stuff, number one. Number two is but once now I'm in the cloud, I would obviously PWA my workload to native AWS or Google, so I think in the long run, I would say that it's a strategy to survive, but I don't think it's a long-term successful. >> Operators don't move that fast, devs move much faster. I got to ask you, in the developer world, and cloud-native and DevOps 2.0, 3.0, what are the biggest challenges that's slowing it down, why isn't it going faster, or is it going fast, what's your view on that? >> Yeah, I think I would say that the biggest change is obviously, I just said, the people. In some sense, people have to transform, and in large organizations, there's a lot of inertia that allows people, they are deploying existing services the way they're deploying services, some of them are custom-built, the guy who wrote it and they no longer exist, they've moved on, and so some of them are built like that, but I think the inertia is basically now "How do I transform them over to the new model?" If the application itself is getting more broken into more microservices, then it's a great opportunity for me to migrate, but if it's not, then I'm not going to touch something that's actually there. So I would say is that technology's complex. Actually, every day we have people, there's a lot of interest, there's a lot of people learning, learning, learning new stuff, but I cannot hire one Kubernetes good engineer if I want to try hard, independently at least. Because it's hard. >> 'Cause they're working somewhere else, right? >> Well they work somewhere else, or the technology is still early enough that people are learning in droves, don't get me wrong there, but I think it's still fairly complex for them to digest all of that. I think in five years, fast forward five years, you would see that technology, knowledge would be more, so it would be easier to hire those people, because if we want to transform internally, let's say I have my enterprise, I want to transform, I need to hire people to do that. >> What are the use cases, what are the top use cases that you're seeing in your work and out in the field in the business that people are rallying around, they can get some wins, top three use cases for end to end cloud-native development? >> I would say the use cases are like if I'm doing any kind of container-based applications, obviously, I would like to do through the new model of doing things, because I don't want to build based on legacy technology, for sure. I would say that the other ones are new age companies, they're definitely adopting cloud first, and they're able to leverage the existing models, the new models more quickly. I mean obviously there are two things, I think that if I'm doing something new, I take advantage of that. >> Do you think microservices is overrated right now, or is it hyped up, or is it? >> No, I think it's real, absurdly real. >> And what's the big use case there? >> The velocity that people get by adopting microservices. Before, I used to work at Cisco, and there's a software release I have planned for six months to release a software because there's so many engineers, and developing so many features, they develop it over a period of time, and then when they actually integrate, there's two, three months of testing before it gets out, because the guy who wrote the code probably left the company already, by the time the software actually sees the light of day. >> Give some data from your perspective, you don't have to name companies, but for the people that are successful with DevOps, at an operating level, what kind of frequency of updates are they doing per day, just give us some order of magnitude numbers on what is a success in terms of it? >> Yeah, I mean the great examples are something like Netflix and all, 7000 deployments a day, but obviously that's in the top of the pyramid, so to say. Many of the other customers are doing, some are bringing in one to two a week, these are very good companies. This is for the service level, I'm not talking about the whole application. Because the application may have 10, 20, 50 services in some way, so there's a lot of updates going on every week, so if you look at a week timeframe, you may have 50 updates for that service, but I think individual service level, essentially it could be one or two a week, and obviously the frequency varies depending on-- >> Just a lot of software being updated all the time. >> Absolutely, absolutely. >> Well Balaji, great to have you in, and I got to say, it's been, we could use your commentary and your insight in some CUBE interviews, love to invite you back, thanks for coming in, appreciate it. I'm John Furrier, here in the CUBE Conversation we have thought leader conversations with experts. From our expert network theCUBE, CUBE alumni, and again, all about bringing you the data here from theCUBE studios, I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. (funky music)

>> From the SiliconAngle media office, in Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE. Now, here's your host, Dave Vellante. >> Hello everyone, and welcome to this Cube Conversation. You know, the auto industry was a, if not the dominant force in the 20th century economy, and clearly, you see it in the headlines today. I mean all you got to do is look at Tesla. The stock is absolutely on fire, Tesla's market value is actually greater than that of Ford and GM combined. Even though its revenues are about one 12th of those two combined. The macro discussion today is really heating up around ESG, which stands for environmental social governance. So, electric vehicles are really picking up momentum, and maybe that's the tailwind for Tesla, but consumers are pragmatic, the electric is still more expensive than internal combustion-powered vehicles, so we'll see how that plays out. One of the things we talk about a lot on theCUBE is the software content in automobiles. In many ways, these vehicles are code on wheels, so that's part of the hype factor, too. But you know, I've always argued that the incumbent auto makers are actually in a pretty reasonable position to compete. While autonomous vehicles, they may disrupt the incumbents, and even though right now Silicon Valley is ahead of Detroit and Japan and Germany and Korea, there's an ecosystem that is evolving to support traditional auto makers. Now, one of those players is Tactile Mobility. The vast majority of data created around autonomous vehicles today is visual-based with LIDAR as a key enabler. But a human driver, you think about it, they don't just rely on sight, they're able to feel the road, the bumps, the curves, and the impacts of things like weather. In fact, it's estimated that more than 20% of vehicle crashes in the US each year are weather-related. And intelligent cars, they really still can't predict road conditions ahead. Tactile offers software that uses sensors that already live in the vehicles to predict and feel road conditions like black ice and potholes to improve safety. And with me to talk about these trends and his company is Amit Nisenbaum, who's the CEO of Tactile Mobility, Amit, thanks so much for coming on theCUBE. >> Thank you Dave very much for having me. >> Yeah, so really, it was a great opportunity, when I heard you were in town, invited you out, and really appreciate you coming out to our Marlborough studios, but let me start with, why your founders launched Tactile Mobility. >> Well, Dave, it's a very interesting story, I think, for our company, as well for other entrepreneurs to learn from it, because actually, the company's been around for about eight years, and it all started from a conundrum from a question that was posed to our founder, Boaz Mizrachi, which was about how do you take a vehicle from point A to point B at a set speed, with minimum gas consumption, using only the software and data coming off the vehicle sensors that are run of the mill sensors? And that question started this whole company, he believed that it's only an optimization question, meaning all of the data is out there, meaning data about the conditions of the road, the grates, the curvatures, the conditions and the health of the vehicle, meaning engine efficiency, tire health, et cetera et cetera. And what he found out was that actually neither this nor that has existed. So it was way more complicated than a mere optimization question, it's about how do you generate that data about the vehicle and the road? And he launched the company in order to go after those two data sets. He was able to solve that, or to address that question, and to take a vehicle and to show that you can take a vehicle from point A to point B at a set speed while minimizing fuel consumption, up to 10%. By the time that he has done that, gas prices dropped, and the question was what's next, and fortunately enough, the industry and the hype around autonomous vehicles has come around, and that has been the next frontier for our company, and that's what we been focusing on since then, but not only on that but on also other aspects, which I'll be happy to speak about. >> That is an awesome story of a pivot, you see this all the time with startups, it's kind of survive until you can thrive, and then something happens that's a tailwind, great technology that the visionary can see how to reapply it, and a little bit of luck involved, maybe, okay, so you-- >> Stamina. >> Stamina, right, you got to have a strong heart and stomach to be a startup. Okay, and you joined just a couple years ago, what attracted you to Tactile? >> Well I've been in this industry, actually in the cross section of the two industries of automotive and energy for about 12 years now, starting from a company called Better Place that you might have heard of, I was one of the first 10 employees there, and those two industries have been near and dear to my heart ever since. I like big questions, I like big challenges, I like big plays that have the potential to make a real difference, so the fact that the Tactile Mobility, at the time it was called MobiWize, it was in this industry was a big plus, but also the fact that the offering is not really the vanilla flavor offering, everybody's doing LIDAR and radar and cameras, all of a sudden there is someone else that is saying "Wait a minute, there is that "neglected segment, that additional set "of sensors, the sense of tactility that all of us "are using when we're driving, "and computers will need that as well. "How about that, this is something "that nobody pays attention to." And that really caught my attention. >> So I kind of hinted at this in my little narrative up front, the hype was all around autonomous, but let's face it, level five autonomous, it's, we're talking at least 2030, maybe further, but everybody drives some form of autonomous vehicle today, if you purchase a new vehicle, and that's really the space that you play in, so what are the big trends that you see, and what's the problem that you're solving? >> Yeah, so first of all, you're absolutely right, when people speak about autonomous vehicles, they imagine themself a car, a vehicle with big red button and that's it, that's what is called level five. However, there are four levels below that that lead to that, and today most of the vehicles leaving the assembly line are either level two or level three. That's why we're also saying that we're in the business of smart and autonomous vehicles, and the challenges there, if you're looking at the vehicles themself, are challenges of how do we make those vehicles both safer, as well as more enjoyable to ride? And the ability to address both of those together is actually not as simple as one might think, so that's what we're focusing on, and that's the trend, the trend of no compromises, that you go both for safety, as well as a user experience, that's on the vehicle side. Having said that, being a data company that has a proprietary software stack, that allows it to generate that data, the tactile data, the data about the dynamic between the vehicle and the road, allows us also to take that data to the cloud, and in the cloud to split that dynamic into two separate models. One we model independently the vehicle, the vehicle health, and the other one is we're turning each one of the vehicles to become like a probe that feels the road conditions and maps the location of bumps, cracks, oil spills, black ice, et cetera et cetera, and by that we are able to crowd source the data and create new layer of the map, road conditions there. Going back to the question that was posed about how do you take that vehicle from point A to point B, in minimum fuel, here you go, we have those two types of data, and now we can use it in other verticals as well. >> Well that's very interesting, so a lot of people say "Oh, autonomous vehicles, it's all about real time, "you can't do anything in the cloud," and you actually, you're refuting that, because you're building essentially a map of what's happening on the roads, whether it's a pothole or a bump or a curve, et cetera. And so essentially you're doing that in the cloud, modeling that in the cloud and then what, bringing it down in real time, right? >> Yeah, so first of all, the first use case is indeed to bring it back to the vehicles and so the vehicle, and the vehicles around it, will know what's ahead of them. Use cases, there are about preconditioning vehicle systems, for instance, you're approaching a pothole, probably you want, you meaning the vehicle, would like to tune the suspension to become harder or softer. You're approaching black ice, probably you want, you, the vehicle, would like to slow down, so that's one use case, but there are other use cases. Other use cases around, for instance, road authorities and municipalities, we do have customers around the globe, road authorities and municipalities, that are subscribed to our data services, the road condition data services, that allow them to better plan maintenance, as well as dispatch crews to locations of hazards in real time. >> Yeah, so I remember when I was a kid, we had a CB, that's how you communicated what was ahead. "Hey, watch out, there's a pothole up ahead." >> Great technology. >> Now we're doing that, and now does that essentially require some kind of peer to peer network, or? >> So we're agnostic of the technology, we're the data layer behind all of that. These days, everything, or most of the use cases, are still running on vehicle to cloud to vehicle, or to anybody else, but there are companies that are working on vehicle to vehicle. >> So you mentioned a stack, what does your stack look like, can you describe that a little bit? >> Two parts, one is embedded software, that sits on one of the vehicle computers, one of the ECUs, and the other one is the cloud component, the component, the embedded software that sits on one of the vehicle ECUs usually either the gateway, or one of the vehicle dynamics ECUs, or maybe ADAS ECU, et cetera, it takes in real time, mounds of data for multiple existing nonvisual sensors, such as wheel speed from all four wheels, wheel angle, position of the gas pedal, torque of the brake pedal and much much more, ingest all of that, create a unified signal that describes in real time the dynamic between the vehicle and the road, that signal is very very noisy, so we apply signal processing methodologies to clean it, and then we apply on top of it algorithms and AI and all of that in real time, in order to derive insights about the vehicle road dynamics. You probably ask yourself, "Give me a concrete example" or something like that, 'cause it's kind of amorphous. The killer app these days with OEMs, vehicle manufacturers, is what is called available grip level. It's basically a signal to the vehicle computer about how drastically can the vehicle accelerate, decelerate, or change direction, all different types of acceleration, before it will start to skid. Think about it as the performance envelope of the vehicle. Nobody but us can model this using software only in any condition, and this type of data has multiple use cases in the vehicle, happy to tell you more about those, question is if we have time. >> We do, but I want to make a point. The software only, the thing, if I understand it correctly, the OEM doesn't have to change any hardware that, you're using the existing sensors of the vehicle, of which there are certainly dozens if not hundreds, to actually take advantage of this, right, you don't have to do any kind of hardware changes, is that correct? >> We're a data and data analytics and AI company. >> Yeah, so if you wanted to add some color and double click on some examples, that would be great. >> Sure, so going back to the available grip level type of data, of insight, I call it, think about adaptive cruise control, the function that allows a vehicle to drive at a set speed, however, to avoid colliding into the front vehicle. So today, it seems like all of the data is there for ACC, adaptive cruise control, to be effective, you know the distance from the vehicle, probably using a radar, you know the relative velocity between the two vehicles, so you have all of the information, however you don't know, you, again, the vehicle computer, how hard the vehicle can brake given how slippery the road is, given how healthy or worn out the tires are, et cetera et cetera. That means that the vehicle computer needs to err on the safe side and keep the large distance in order to allow safe braking. What's wrong with that? Going back to the question about the trend before, first of all it's not natural to the driver. We keep a certain distance for a certain reason, and when the distance is too large, it just doesn't feel natural to us. That's one thing. However, on the other side, it's also not safe, how is that? You keep too large of a distance, someone at the end will cut you in. And ironically, you kept a large distance to stay safe, all of a sudden you're worse off. So being able to allow the vehicle to know really, what is the tight distance, safe distance to stay from the vehicle, allows that vehicle to be more enjoyable to ride, as well as safe. >> So take that example, because today, I can sort of personalize that adaptive cruise control and say "Okay, I want one bar, two bar, three bar," but that's it, and I sometimes say "Whoa, is three bar right, is two bar right?" And you're right, sometimes I go "Eh, it's too far, "I think I'll cut it down to two bar or one bar." You're saying with your software, the system is intelligent enough to optimize that, to keep me safe, but also keep me having comfortable driving. >> Absolutely true, actually those three bars is kind of a psychological exercise, right? Because the shortest bar is that large distance. When they tell you two bars or three bars, it's kind of like "Do you want to keep a large, "very large, or extra large distance," right? Because they will never allow you to keep shorter distance shorter than what is really really the bare minimum in order to brake at the worst case scenario. >> Even if it's safe. And that's really where your software comes in, okay. Now Porsche is an investor in the company, presumably it's a customer, right? >> No, they actually said publicly that they're a customer as well. >> Okay, great, so talk about how customers are using this, and what the adoption cycle looks like, and maybe give us some examples of how it's being applied. >> So customers, you mean OEMs, car manufacturers. So the way that they use it, I just described it now, the adoption cycle, we in this industry unfortunately cycles are long. We work years to create relationships with the car manufacturers to allow them to learn about our capabilities, to validate the integrity of our software. They also most commonly run RFPs or RFQs in order to choose the right technology, and I'm glad to say that we're winning again and again and again, and then there is the integration cycle, which by itself is a few years in length. So the cycle altogether is long, however, we found that our approach is quite effective, and the approach, not necessarily the technology, yes, but also the way that we approach those OEMs. We are quite, if I may say, humble. We know that we're not the car engineers, the typical car engineers. We actually know very little about cars, what we know, we know data very well and we know AI very well. And when we come to them, we say "We're not trying to replace your engineers, "we're not trying to do what you do, "we're trying to tackle the same problems "that you weren't able to tackle before "from a very different angle," and that works very well. >> So, you talked about the integration cycle of a couple, or maybe even longer, how long is the design cycle for these things, is it also years, or? >> So, the design cycle from our perspective is much much more agile, actually we are working in the Agile framework in terms of the development of the software itself, but you're asking about the design, much faster, but when I said a few years, a couple of years, I meant per OEM to design together, to allow them to feel that we're designing, meaning customizing the software to their needs, as well as implementing it, that's the length. >> But what they get is a competitive advantage, so Porsche as a leader, obviously, and an early adopter, is going to be able to now commercialize this technology, and of course it'll be embedded, but now it'll be a feature that the car salesperson will highlight, and maybe they market it, maybe they don't, but that gives them a competitive differentiation, right? So are you seeing that other OEMs are starting to really get this, and sort of leaning in, or what's your experience? >> Yes, it's the typical technology adoption curve, there are the early adopters, and there are the mainstream and the late adopters, I'm glad to say that these days we're not only working with the early adopters, but also more with the mainstream. I encourage you to stay tuned, I believe that in the coming month or two, we'll have a big announcement about another major OEM that has chosen us commercially for mass production, and we are in quite advanced stages with OEMs both in Europe and North America, starting also to spin out to Asia. >> And is the business model, is it a subscription model, is it a one time payment from the OEM, how's it work? >> That's another thing that made me excited about the company, going back to your question from before, it's quite diverse, I would say. For the OEMs, that's software that we embed in their vehicle, it's software licensing. However, the data that we generate and then upload to the cloud and repurpose it with the OEMs themself, but also as I said before, road authorities, municipalities, fleet managers, insurance companies, I didn't have a chance to touch on all of the verticals. That's a subscription model, so the two models working together, it's actually quite an attractive, valuable position for us and for our investors. >> So there's software license, and then there's data as a service. And so there's also adjacent industries that you can go after, you just mentioned a couple, so when you think about the total available market, which obviously, any CEO is going to do, TAM expansion is part of your job, but so what's that vision, what does that look like? >> So in terms of the size itself, it's measured in the trillions, it's very very big. In terms of the different verticals, the ones that I tapped on are the first ones, but even within those, these days we're really trying to stay razor focused on the OEMs and road authorities and municipalities. We have fleets and fleet managers that are coming to us with requests for the data that we call vehicle DNA, that's the data about the vehicle health, et cetera, and that's the third vertical that we're starting to address these days, but we're only 25 people, growing to 40, we're trying to be very very agile, that's from one end, and from the other end, now that we showed our value to the car manufacturers, we're going for the force multipliers, meaning partnerships with the channels, with the T1s, the suppliers to the OEMs themself. >> And let's see, you've been around eight years, you've been there two years, right, and then I think you did a raise of roughly, what, nine million to date? >> In October 2019, we announced the latest round of nine million dollars from Porsche, as well as some other investors, yes. >> Great, okay, so I mean not a ton of money, but you guys are small, and so, little bit more on the companies, 20, going to 40, you're well capitalized, but today, you see people raising 250 million, what do you sense as your capital needs, I mean you're obviously actively raising money, and doing what a CEO does, but can you share with us your milestones for the next 12, 18 months? >> First of all, we were fortunate, and fortune has something to do with it, I think that being disciplined is another thing, to have revenue already. So our capital needs, we're still not profitable, and we're growing fast, so we need to raise in order to support that growth, but we're quite diligent about that. Also, true, companies have raised tens and hundreds of millions of dollars. First of all, not all companies in this industry are created equal, we're not a hardware company, we're a software and data. We're also not trying to do a fully integrated offering like, let's say Zuks or something like that, which requires way way more money. And actually, I'm quite glad that we're raising as we need, but not more than that, because what you raise, you need to return tenfold, so we have enough in order to support the growth of the company in years to come. >> Well the OEM model is very sales efficient as well, so it's not like in software companies today, are hiring people to do inside sales, outside sales, enterprise sales, and so it's a different business. Well Amit, first of all, congratulations, a really interesting story, really appreciate you coming out to our studios here in Marlborough and sharing your story, and best of luck to you. >> Thank you very much, Dave, it's been a pleasure coming here, and I'm glad that you invited me. >> Great, and thank you everybody for watching, this is Dave Vellante with theCUBE, we'll see you next time. (techno music)

>> From the Silicon Angle Media Office in Boston Massachusetts, it's "The Cube." (groovy techno music) Now, here's your host, Dave Vellante. >> Hello, everyone. The rise of open source is really powering the digital economy. And in a world where every company is essentially under pressure to become a software firm, open source software really becomes the linchpin of digital services for both incumbents and, of course, digital natives. Here's the challenge, is when developers tap and apply open source, they're often bringing in hundreds, or even thousands of lines of code that reside in open sourced packages and libraries. And these code bases, they have dependencies, and essentially hidden traps. Now typically, security vulnerabilities in code, they're attacked after the software's developed. Or maybe thrown over the fence to the sec-ops team and SNYK is a company that set out to solve this problem within the application development life cycle, not after the fact as a built-on. Now, with us to talk about this mega-trend is Peter McKay, a friend of The Cube and CEO of SNYK. Peter, great to see you again. >> Good to see you, dude. >> So I got to start with the name. SNYK, what does it mean? >> SNYK, So Now You Know. You know, people it's sneakers sneak. And they tend to use the snick. So it's SNYK or snick. But it is SNYK and it stands for So Now You Know. Kind of a security, so now you know a lot more about your applications than you ever did before. So it's kind of a fitting name. >> So you heard my narrative upfront. Maybe you can add a little color to that and provide some additional background. >> Yeah, I mean, it's a, you know, when you think of the larger trends that are going on in the market, you know, every company is going through this digital transformation. You know, and every CEO, it's the number one priority. We've got to change our business from, you know, financial services, healthcare, insurance company, whatever, are all switching to digital, you know, more of a software company. And with that, more software equals more software risk and cybersecurity continues to be, you know, a major. I think 72% of CEOs worry about cybersecurity as a top issue in protecting companies' data. And so for us, we've been in the software in the security space for the four and a half years. I've been in the security space since, you know, Watchfire 20 years ago. And right now, with more and more, as you said, open source and containers, the challenge of being able to address the cybersecurity issues that have never been more challenging. And so especially when you add the gap between the need for security professionals and what they have. I think it's four million open positions for security people. So you know, with all this added risk, more and more open source, more and more digitization, it's created this opportunity in the market where you're traditional approaches to addressing security don't work today, you know? Like you said, throwing it over the fence and having someone in security, you know, check and make sure and finding all these vulnerabilities, and throw it back to developers to fix is very slow and something at this point is not driving to success. >> So talk a little bit more about what attracted you to SNYK early. I mean, you've been with the company, you're at least involved in the company for a couple years now. What were the trends that you saw, and what was it about SNYK that, you know, led you to become an investor and ultimately, CEO? >> Yeah, so four years involved in the business. So you know, I've always loved the security space. I've been in it for a number, almost 20 years. So I enjoy the space. You know, I've watched it. The founder, Guy Podjarny, one of the founders of SNYK, has been a friend of mine for 16 years from back in the Watchfire days. So we've always stayed connected. I've always worked well together with him. And so when you started, and I was on the board, the first board member of the company, so I could see what was going on, and it was this, you know, changing, kind of the right place at the right time in terms of developer first security. Really taking all the things that are going on in the security space that impacts a developer or can be addressed by the developer, and embedding it into the software into that developer community, in a way that developers use, the tools that they use. So it's a developer-first mindset with security expertise built-in. And so when you look at the market, the number of open source container evolution, you know, it's a huge market opportunity. Then you look at the business momentum, just took off over the past, you know, four years. That it was something that I was getting more and more involved in. And then when Guy asked me to join as the CEO, it was like, "Sure, what took you so long?" (Dave laughing) >> We had Guy on at Node JS Summit. I want to say it was a couple years ago now. And what he was describing is when you package, take the example of Node. When you package code in Node, you bring in all these dependencies, kind of what I was talking about there, but the challenge that he sort of described was really making it seamless as part of the development workflow. It seems like that's unique to SNYK. Maybe you could talk about-- >> Yeah, it is. And you know, we've built it from the ground up. You know, it's very difficult. If it was a security tool for security people, and then say, "Oh, let's adapt it for the developer," that is almost impossible. Why I think we've been so successful from the 400,000 developers in the community using Freemium to paid, was we built it from the ground up for developer, embedded into the application-development life cycle. Into their process, the look and feel, easy for them to use, easy for them to try it, and then we focused on just developer adoption. A great experience, developers will continue to use it and expand with it. And most of our opportunities that we've been successful at, the customers, we have over 400 customers. That had been this try, you know, start it with the community. They used the Freemium, they tried it for their new application, then they tried it for all their new, and then they go back and replace the old. So it was kind of this Freemium, land and expand has been a great way for developers to try it, use it. Does it work, yes, buy more. And that's the way we work. >> We're really happy, Peter, that you came on because you've got some news today that you're choosing to share with us in our Cube community. So it's around financing, bring us up to date. What's the news? >> Yeah so you know, I'd say four months ago, five months ago, we raised a $70 million round from great investors. And that was really led by one of our existing investors, who kind of knew us the best and it was you know, Excel Venture, and then Excel Growth came in and led the $70 million round. And part of that was a few new investors that came in and Stripes, which is you know a very large growth equity investor were part of that $70 million round said you know, preempted it and said, "Look it, we know you don't need the money, but we want to," you know, "We want to preempt. We believe your customer momentum," here we did, you know, five or six really large deals. You know, one, 700, seven million, 7.4 million, one's 3.5 million. So we started getting these bigger deals and we doubled since the $70 million round. And so we said, "Okay, we want to make money not the issue." So they led the next round, which is $150 million round, at a valuation of over a billion. That really allows us now to, with the number of other really top tier, (mumbles) and Tiger and Trend and others, who have been part of watching the space and understand the market. And are really helping us grow this business internationally. So it's an exciting time. So you know, again, we weren't looking to raise. This was something that kind of came to us and you know, when people are that excited about it like we are and they know us the best because they've been part of our board of directors since their round, it allows us to do the things that we want to do faster. >> So $150 million raise this round, brings you up to the 250, is that correct? >> Yes, 250. >> And obviously, an up-round. So congratulations, that's great. >> Yeah, you know, I think a big part of that is you know, we're not, I mean, we've always been very fiscally responsible. I mean, yes we have the money and most of it's still in the bank. We're growing at the pace that we think is right for us and right for the market. You know, we continue to invest product, product, product, is making sure we continue our product-led organization. You know, from that bottoms up, which is something we continue to do. This allows us to accelerate that more aggressively, but also the community, which is a big part of what makes that, you know, when you have a bottoms up, you need to have that community. And we've grown that and we're going to continue to invest aggressively and build in that community. And lastly, go to market. Not only invest, invest aggressively in the North America, but also Europe and APJ, which, you know, a lot of the things we've learned from my Veeam experience, you know how to grow fast, go big or go home. You know, are things that we're going to do but we're going to do it in the right way. >> So the Golden Rule is product and sales, right? >> Yes, you're either building it or selling it. >> Right, that's kind of where you're going to put your money. You know, you talk a lot about people, companies will do IPOs to get seen, but companies today, I mean, even software companies, which is a capital-efficient industry, they raise a lot of dough and they put it towards promotion to compete. What are your thoughts on that? >> You know, we've had, the model is very straightforward. It's bottoms up, you know? Developers, you know, there's 28 million developers in the world, you know? What we want is every one of those 28 million to be using our product. Whether it's free or paid, I want SNYK used in every application-development life cycle. If you're one developer, or you're a sales force with standardized on 12,000 developers, we want them using SNYK. So for us, it's get it in the hands. And that, you know, it's not like-- developers aren't going to look at Super Bowl ads, they're not going to be looking. It's you know, it's finding the ways, like the conference. We bought the DevSecCon, you know, the conference for developer security. Another way to promote kind of our, you know, security for developers and grow that developer community. That's not to say that there isn't a security part. Because, you know, what we do is help security organizations with visibility and finding a much more scalable way that gets them out of the, you know, the slows-down, the speed bump to the moving apps more aggressively into production. And so this is very much about helping security people. A lot of times the budgets do come from security or dev-ops. But it's because of our focus on the developer and the success of fixing, finding, fixing, and auto-remediating that developer environment is what makes us special. >> And it's sounds like a key to your success is you're not asking developer to context switch into a new environment, right? It's part of their existing workflow. >> It has to be, right? Don't change how they do their job, right? I mean, their job is to develop incredible applications that are better than the competitors, get them to market faster than they can, than they've ever been able to do before and faster than the competitor, but do it securely. Our goal is to do the third, but not sacrifice on one and two, right? Help you drive it, help you get your applications to market, help you beat your competition, but do it in a secure fashion. So don't slow them down. >> Well, the other thing I like about you guys is the emphasis is on fixing. It's not just alerting people that there's a problem. I mean, for instance, a company like Red Hat, is that they're going to put a lot of fixes in. But you, of course, have to go implement them. What you're doing is saying, "Hey, we're going to do that for you. Push the button and then we'll do it," right? So that, to me, that's important because it enables automation, it enables scale. >> Exactly, and I think this has been one of the challenges for kind of more of the traditional legacy, is they find a whole bunch of vulnerabilities, right? And we feel as though just that alone, we're the best in the world at. Finding vulnerabilities in applications in open source container. And so the other part of it is, okay, you find all them, but prioritizing what it is that I should fix first? And that's become really big issue because the vulnerabilities, as you can imagine, continue to grow. But focusing on hey, fix this top 10%, then the next, and to the extent you can, auto-fix. Auto-remediate those problems, that's ultimately, we're measured by how many vulnerabilities do we fix, right? I mean, finding them, that's one thing. But fixing them is how we judge a successful customer. And now it's possible. Before, it was like, "Oh, okay, you're just going to show me more things." No, when you talk about Google and Salesforce and Intuit, and all of our customers, they're actually getting far better. They're seeing what they have in terms of their exposure, and they're fixing the problems. And that's ultimately what we're focused on. >> So some of those big whales that you just mentioned, it seems to me that the value proposition for those guys, Peter, is the quality of the code that they can develop and obviously, the time that it takes to do that. But if you think about it more of a traditional enterprise, which I'm sure is part of your (mumbles), they'll tell you, the (mumbles) will tell you our biggest problem is we don't have enough people with the skills. Does this help? >> It absolutely-- >> And how so? >> Yeah, I mean, there's a massive gap in security expertise. And the current approach, the tools, are, you know, like you said at the very beginning, it's I'm doing too late in the process. I need to do it upstream. So you've got to leverage the 28 million developers that are developing the applications. It's the only way to solve the problem of, you know, this application security challenge. We call it Cloud Dative Application Security, which all these applications usually are new apps that they're moving into the Cloud. And so to really fix it, to solve the problem, you got to embed it, make it really easy for developers to leverage SNYK in their whole, we call it, you know, it's that concept of shift left, you know? Our view is that it needs to be embedded within the development process. And that's how you fix the problem. >> And talk about the business model again. You said it's Freemium model, you just talked about a big seven figure deals that you're doing and that starts with a Freemium, and then what? I upgrade to a subscription and then it's a land and expand? Describe that. >> Yeah we call it, it's you know, it's the community. Let's get every developer in a community. 28 million, we want to get into our community. From there, you know, leverage our Freemium, use it. You know, we encourage you to use it. Everybody to use our Freemium. And it's full functionality. It's not restricted in anyway. You can use it. And there's a subset of those that are ready to say, "Look it, I want to use the paid version," which allows me to get more visibility across more developers. So as you get larger organization, you want to leverage the power of kind of a bigger, managing multiple developers, like a lot of, in different teams. And so that kind of gets that shift to that paid. Then it goes into that Freemium, land, expand, we call it explode. Sales force, kind of explode. And then renew. That's been our model. Get in the door, get them using Freemium, we have a great experience, go to paid. And that's usually for an application, then it goes to 10 applications, and then 300 developers and then the way we price is by developer. So the more developers who use, the better your developer adoption, the bigger the ultimate opportunity is for us. >> There's a subscription service right? >> All subscription. >> Okay and then you guys have experts that are identifying vulnerabilities, right? You put them into a database, presumably, and then you sort of operationalize that into your software and your service. >> Yeah, we have 15 people in our security team that do nothing everyday but looking for the next vulnerability. That's our vulnerability database, in a large case, is a lot of our big companies start with the database. Because you think of like Netflix and you think of Facebook, all of these companies have large security organizations that are looking for issues, looking for vulnerabilities. And they're saying, "Well okay, if I can get that feed from you, why do I have my own?" And so a lot of companies start just with the database feed and say, "Look, I'll get rid of mine, and use yours." And then eventually, we'll use this scanning and we'll evolve down the process. But there's no doubt in the market people who use our solution or other solution will say our known the database of known vulnerabilities, is far better than anybody else in the market. >> And who do you sell to, again? Who are the constituencies? Is it sec-ops, is it, you know, software engineering? Is it developers, dev-ops? >> Users are always developers. In some cases dev-ops, or dev-sec. Apps-sec, you're starting to see kind of the world, the developer security becoming bigger. You know, as you get larger, you're definitely security becomes a bigger part of the journey and some of the budget comes from the security teams. Or the risk or dev-ops. But I think if we were to, you know, with the user and some of the influencers from developers, dev-ops, and security are kind of the key people in the equation. >> Is your, you have a lot of experience in the enterprise. How do you see your go to market in this world different, given that it's really a developer constituency that you're targeting? I mean, normally, you'd go out, hire a bunch of expensive sales guys, go to market, is that the model or is it a little different here because of the target? >> Yeah, you know, to be honest, a lot of the momentum that we've had at this point has been inbound. Like most of the opportunities that come in, come to us from the community, from this ground up. And so we have a very large inside sales team that just kind of follows up on the inbound interest. And that's still, you know, 65, 70% of the opportunities that come to us both here and Europe and APJ, are coming from the community inbound. Okay, I'm using 10 licenses of SNYK, you know, I want to get the enterprise version of it. And so that's been how we've grown. Very much of a very cost-effective inside sales. Now, when you get to the Googles and Salesforces and Nordstroms of the world, and they have already 500 licenses us, either paid or free, then we usually have more of a, you know, senior sales person that will be involved in those deals. >> To sort of mine those accounts. But it's really all about driving the efficiency of that inbound, and then at some point driving more inbound and sort of getting that flywheel effect. >> Developer adoption, developer adoption. That's the number one driver for everybody in our company. We have a customer success team, developer adoption. You know, just make the developer successful and good things happen to all the other parts of the organization. >> Okay, so that's a key performance indicator. What are the, let's wrap kind of the milestones and the things that you want to accomplish in the next, let's call it 12 months, 18 months? What should we be watching? >> Yeah, so I mean it continues to be the community, right? The community, recruiting more developers around the globe. We're expanding, you know, APJ's becoming a bigger part. And a lot of it is through just our efforts and just building out this community. We now have 20 people, their sole job is to build out, is to continue to build our developer community. Which is, you know, content, you know, information, how to learn, you know, webinars, all these things that are very separate and apart from the commercial side of the business and the community side of the business. So community adoption is a critical measurement for us, you know, yeah, you look at Freemium adoption. And then, you know, new customers. How are we adding new customers and retaining our existing customers? And you know, we have a 95% retention rate. So it's very sticky because you're getting the data feed, is a daily data feed. So it's like, you know, it's not one that you're going to hook on and then stop at any time soon. So you know, those are the measurements. You look at your community, you look at your Freemium, you look at your customer growth, your retention rates, those are all the things that we measure our business by. >> And your big pockets of brain power here, obviously in Boston, kind of CEO's prerogative, you got a big presence in London, right? And also in Israel, is that correct? >> Yeah, I would say we have four hubs and then we have a lot of remote employees. So, you know, Tel Aviv, where a lot of our security expertise is, in London, a lot of engineering. So between London and Tel Aviv is kind of the security teams, the developers are all in the community is kind of there. You know, Boston, is kind of more go to market side of things, and then we have Ottawa, which is kind of where Watchfire started, so a lot of good security experience there. And then, you know, we've, like a lot of modern companies, we hired the best people wherever we can find them. You know, we have some in Sydney, we've got some all around the world. Especially security, where finding really good security talent is a challenge. And so we're always looking for the best and brightest wherever they are. >> Well, Peter, congratulations on the raise, the new role, really, thank you for coming in and sharing with The Cube community. Really appreciate it. >> Well, it's great to be here. Always enjoy the conversations, especially the Patriots, Red Sox, kind of banter back and forth. It's always good. >> Well, how do you feel about that? >> Which one? >> Well, the Patriots, you know, sort of strange that they're not deep into the playoffs, I mean, for us. But how about the Red Sox now? Is it a team of shame? All my friends who were sort of jealous of Boston sports are saying you should be embarrassed, what are your thoughts? >> It's all about Houston, you know? Alex Cora, was one of the assistant coaches at Houston where all the issues are, I'm not sure those issues apply to Boston, but we'll see, TBD. TBD, I am optimistic as usual. I'm a Boston fan making sure that there isn't any spillover from the Houston world. >> Well we just got our Sox tickets, so you know, hopefully, they'll recover quickly, you know, from this. >> They will, they got to get a coach first. >> Yeah, they got to get a coach first. >> We need something to distract us from the Patriots. >> So you're not ready to attach an asterisk yet to 2018? >> No, no. No, no, no. >> All right, I like the optimism. Maybe you made the right call on Tom Brady. >> Did I? >> Yeah a couple years ago. >> Still since we talked what, two in one. And they won one. >> So they were in two, won one, and he threw for what, 600 yards in the first one so you can't, it wasn't his fault. >> And they'll sign him again, he'll be back. >> Is that your prediction? I hope so. >> I do, I do. >> All right, Peter. Always a pleasure, man. >> Great to see you. >> Thank you so much, and thank you for watching everybody, we'll see you next time. (groovy techno music)

(upbeat music) >> Narrator: From our studios, in the heart of Silicon Valley, Palo Alto, California. This is a CUBE Conversation. >> Hello and welcome to theCUBE studios, in Palo Alto California, for another CUBE Conversation, where we go in-depth with thought leaders driving innovation across the tech industry. I'm your host, Peter Burris. Anybody that's read any Wikibon research or been a part of any conversation with anybody here at SiliconANGLE, knows we're big believers in the notion of digital business, and digital business transformation. Simply put, the difference between a business and a digital business is the role that data plays in a digital business. Digital businesses use data to change their value propositions, better manage and get greater visibility and utilization out of their assets, and ultimately drive new types of customer experience. That places an enormous burden on the technologies, the digital technologies that have historically been associated with IT, but now are becoming more deeply embedded within the business. And that digital business transformation is catalyzing a whole derivative set of other transformations. Including for example, technology, data centers, security, et cetera. It's a big topic, and to start to parse it and make some sense of it, we're joined by two great guests today- Michael Segal is the area vice-president of strategic alliances at NETSCOUT Systems, and Eric Smith is the senior product line manager of NETSCOUT Systems. Gentlemen, welcome to theCUBE. >> Pleasure to be here, Peter. >> Okay, so, Michael let's get going on. Give us a quick update on NETSCOUT Systems. >> Yeah, so maybe just a quick introduction of what NETSCOUT actually does. So, NETSCOUT assures service performance and security for the largest enterprises and service providers in the world. And the way we accomplish it is through what we refer to as offering visibility without borders. Now, this visibility without borders provides actionable intelligence that enables, very quickly and efficiently to enterprises and service providers, ensure their service performance and security, understand, discover problems, root cause, and solution. So it overall reduces their mean time to repair, and it's being used to assure that digital transformation and other transformation initiatives are executed effectively by the IT organization. >> All right, so let's jump in to this notion of transformation. Now, I know that you and I have spent, on a couple different occasions, talked about the idea of digital business transformation. What does digital business transformation mean to NETSCOUT, and some of the other derivative transformations that are associated with it? >> Right, so as you described very very concisely in your introduction, the business transformation is about enabling the business through digital services and data to differentiate itself from competition very very effectively. Now, one of the aspects of this digital transformation is that now more than ever before, the CIOs are taking a very active role in this transformation because obviously, information technology is responsible for digital services and processing and analyzing data. So with that in mind, the CIOs now need to support the business aspects of agility, right? So if your business agility involves introducing new services very quickly and efficiently, the IT organization needs to support that, and at the same time, they also need to assure that the employee productivity and end user experience is maintained at the highest levels possible. So this is exactly where NETSCOUT comes in, and we support the IT organization by providing this visibility without borders, to assure that employee productivity and end user experience is maintained and any issues are resolved very quickly and efficiently. >> Especially customer experience, and that's increasingly the most important, end users that any digital business has to deal with. At this point in time Eric, I want to bring you in to the conversation. When we talk about this notion of greater visibility, greater security, over digital assets, and the role that the CIO is playing, that also suggests that there is a new class of roles for architects, for people who have historically been associated more with running the networks, running the systems, how is their role changing, and how is that part of the whole concept of data centered transformation? >> Right, so, the guys that have typically been in what you might consider network operations types of roles, their roles are evolving as well, as the entire organization does. So as Michael mentioned beforehand, no longer is the digital business wholly and solely confined to an IT department that is working just with their employees. They're now part of the business. They're not just the cost center anymore, they're actually an asset to the business. And they are supporting lines of business. So the folks that have traditionally had these roles have just maintained the network, maintained the applications, are having to become experts in other aspects. So as certain applications disaggregate, or potentially move out partially into the cloud, they kind of become cloud architects as well, whether it's a public cloud or a private cloud, they have to understand those relationships and they have to understand what happens when you spread your network out beyond your traditional data center core. >> So let's build on that, because that suggests that the ultimate solution for how we move forward has to accommodate greater visibility, end-to-end, across resources, not only that we have traditionally controlled, and therefore could decide how much visibility we had, if the tooling was right, but also resources that are outside of our direct purview. How does that work as we think about building this end to end visibility to improve the overall productivity and capability, as you said, the productivity and end user experience, of the systems we're deploying? >> Yeah, so maybe we can start with the end in mind, and what I mean by that is what you just described as end user productivity and user experience, so how do we measure it, right? So in order to measure it, what we need to look is the visibility at the service level. And what I mean by visibility at the service level is actually looking, not just at once specific component that is associated with the servers such as application, it's one component, however application is running on a network, you have service enablers, for example to authenticate, to do accounting, to do DNS resolution, so you need to look at all of these components of a service and be able to effectively provide visibility across all of them. Now, the other aspect of this visibility, as you mentioned, end-to-end, which is an excellent observation as well, because you're looking at the data center, which is still very strategic assets, your crown jewels are still going to be in the data center, some of the data will remain there, but now you are expanding to the edge, maybe colos, maybe microdata centers in the colos, then you move workloads, migrate them to public clouds, it can be IaaS, you have more SaaS providers that provide you with different services. So this aspect of end-to-end really evolves into geographically dispersed, very complex and highly scalable architecture. >> Yeah, we like to say that the cloud is not an architecture, not a strategy, for centralizing resources. Rather, it's a strategy for greater distributing resources, allowing data to be where it needs to be to perform the function, or where it gets captured, allowing the service to be able to go to the data, to be able to perform the work that needs to be conducted from a digital business standpoint. That suggests that even though a customer, let's call it the end user, and the end user experience, may get a richer set of capabilities, but the way by which that work is being performed gets increasingly complex, and partly, it sounds like, that it's complexity that has to be administered and monitored so that you don't increase the time required to understand the nature of a problem, understand the nature of the fix. Have I got that right? >> You got it absolutely right, and I would add to this that the complexity that you described is being further magnified by the fact that you lose control to some extent, as you mentioned before, right? >> Or because, let's put it this way, it becomes a contracting challenge as opposed to a command and control challenge. Now the CIO can't tell Mike, "Go fix it", the CIO has to get on the phone with a public cloud provider and say, our service level says, and that's a different type of interaction. >> Right, and usually the service provider would say, the problem is not on my side, it's on your side, so the traditional finger pointing in war rooms now, is being expanded across multiple service providers, and you need to be able to very effectively and quickly identify this is the root cause, this is why it's your fault, service provider, it's not our fault, please go and fix it. >> So let's dig into that if we can, Eric, this notion of having greater visibility so that you are in a better position to actually identify the characteristics of the problem, and where the responsibilities lie. How is that working? >> So, in the past, or when the digital transformation started it's initial rise, it wasn't. And what was happening is, as you both have alluded to a moment ago, I can no longer call Mike and Suzie downstairs, and say you know, voicemail is not working, things are just, not working. Well, you can go sic them on it and they go fix it. What's happening now is that data is leaving your data center, it may be going through something like a colo, which is aggregating the data, and then sending it on to your partner, that is providing these services. So what you have to have is a way to regain that visibility into those last mile segments, if you will, so that as you work with your partners, whether it's the colo or the in-software provider, that you can say look, I can see things from here, I can see things to there, and here's where it goes south, and this is the problem, help me fix it. And so, as you said a moment ago, you cannot let your mean time to resolution expand simply because you're engaging in these digital transformation activities. You need to remain at least as good as you did before, and hopefully better. >> Well, you have to be better, because your business is becoming more dependent on your digital business capabilities, increasingly it's becoming your business. So let me again dig a little more deeper technically into that. A lot of companies are attempting to essentially provide a summary view of that data, that's moving around a network, moving across these different centers and locations, edge, colo, et cetera, what is the right way to do it? What constitutes real truth when we talk about how these systems are going to work? >> So NETSCOUT believes, and I think most people wouldn't argue with us, that when you can actually see the packet data that goes across the network, you know what elements are talking to which ones, and you can see that, and you can build metrics, and you can build views upon that, that is very high fidelity data, and you absolutely know what's going on. We like to call it the single source of truth. So as things come from the deep part of the data center, whether it's a virtualized server farm, all the way through this core of the network, and your service enablers like Michael mentioned, all the through the colos, and out into an IAS or SaaS type of environment, if you're seeing what's actually being on the wire, and who's talking to whom, you know what's going on, and you can quickly triage and identify what the problem is so that you can solve it. >> Now is that something that increasingly architects or administrators are exploiting as they use these new classes of tools to gain that visibility into how the different services are working together? And also, is that becoming a feature of how SLAs and contracts are being written, so that we can short circuit the finger pointing with our service providers? >> Yeah, so there's kind of like you said, two parts that, the first is I think, a lot of the traditional IT operations folks, as you mentioned earlier, are learning new roles, so to some degree, it is new for them, and I don't know that everybody has started to make use of those tools yet, but that's part of what our story is to them, is that we can provide those tools for you, so that you can continue to isolate and solve these problems. And I'm sorry, what was the second part of your question? >> Well, the second part is, how does that translate into contracting? Does that knowledge about where things actually work inform a contracting process to reduce the amount of finger pointing, which by the way, is a major transaction cost and a major barrier to getting things done quickly. >> Absolutely, and so you since you have this high fidelity data at every step of the way, and you can see what's happening, you can prove to your partners where the problem lies. If I find it on my side of it, okay, no harm no foul, I'll go fix it and move on with my life. But with that data, with that high fidelity data, and being able to see all the transactions and all the applications, and all the communications that happens end-to-end, through the network between me and my partner, I can show them that they are outside of their SLA. And to your point, it should shorten the time between the finger pointing, because I have good data that says, this is the problem. You can't dispute that. And so, they're much more inclined to work with you in a hopefully, very good way, to fix the problem. >> So that brings us back to the CIO. And I want to close with you on this, Michael. That's got to make a CIO happier, who is today facing a lot of business change, and is trying to provide a lot, you said agility, I'll use the word an increasing array of business and strategy options based on digital technology. Ensuring that they have greater certainty in the nature of the services, the provider of the services, and in the service levels of the services, has got to be an essential feature of their decision making toolkit as they provide business with different ranges of options, right? >> Absolutely correct. In fact, the high fidelity data is so critical in order to accomplish this, right, so in order for the CIO to be able to demonstrate to the CEO and other key executives that his objectives are met, the KPIs for that are along the lines of your efficiency, your service delivery capabilities, and being able to monitor everything in real time. So, the high fidelity data, I just want to elaborate a little bit more on what it means, because that's the difference between having these key performance indicators that are relevant for the CIO, and relevant also for other key stakeholders, and having something that is best guess, and maybe it's going to help. So high fidelity data, the way that NETSCOUT defines it, has several components. First of all, because it's based on traffic, or packet data, or wire data, it means that we continuously monitor the data, continuously analyze it, and it's the single source of truth because there's consistency in terms of what data is being exchanged. So the more visibility you get into the data that's being exchanged between different workloads, the more intelligence you can glean from it. The other aspect is that it's really, we mentioned, the service level, and if you think of packet data, it's all layers two through seven, so you have the data link layer, you have the network, you have the transport, you have the session, you have application, you can holistically identify any application, and provide you with error codes and in context, say you know the log and latency and error codes give you the overall picture. So this all together constitutes very high fidelity data. And at the end of the day, if the CIO wants to accelerate the digital transformation with confidence, this is the kind of high fidelity data that you need in order to assure that your key performance indicators, as CIO, are being maintained. >> This is the as is truth. >> Exactly. >> All right, Michael Segal, Eric Smith, I want to thank you both for being on theCUBE. >> Thank you for having me. >> Thank you very much Peter, for having us. >> And thanks for joining us for another CUBE Conversation. I'm Peter Burris, see you next time. (upbeat music)