>> And I'm here at Dell's Presence at MWC with vice president of marketing for telecom and Edge Computing, Aaron Chaisson. Aaron, how's it going? >> Doing great. How's it going today, Dave? >> It's going pretty well. Pretty excited about what you've got going here and I'm looking forward to getting the tour. You ready to take a closer look? >> Ready to do it. Let's go take a look! For us in the telecom ecosystem, it's really all about how we bring together the different players that are innovating across the industry to drive value for our CSP customers. So, it starts really, for us, at the ecosystem layer, bringing partners, bringing telecommunication providers, bringing (stutters) a bunch of different technologies together to innovate together to drive new value. So Paul, take us a little bit through what we're doing to- to develop and bring in these partnerships and develop our ecosystem. >> Uh, sure. Thank you Aaron. Uh, you know, one of the things that we've been focusing on, you know, Dell is really working with many players in the open telecom ecosystem. Network equipment providers, independent software vendors, and the communication service providers. And, you know, through our lines of business or open telecom ecosystem labs, what we want to do is bring 'em together into a community with the goal of really being able to accelerate open innovation and, uh, open solutions into the market. And that's what this community is really about, is being able to, you know, have those communications, develop those collaborations whether it's through, you know, sharing information online, having webinars dedicated to sharing Dell information, whether it's our next generation hardware portfolio we announced here at the show, our use case directory, our- how we're dealing with new service opportunities, but as well as the community to share, too, which I think is an exciting way for us to be able to, you know- what is the knowledge thing? As well as activities at other events that we have coming up. So really the key thing I think about, the- the open telecom ecosystem community, it's collaboration and accelerating the open industry forward. >> So- So Aaron, if I'm hearing this correctly you're saying that you can't just say, "Hey, we're open", and throw a bunch of parts in a box and have it work? >> No, we've got to work together to integrate these pieces to be able to deliver value, and, you know, we opened up a- (stutters) in our open ecosystem labs, we started a- a self-certification process a couple of months back. We've already had 13 partners go through that, we've got 16 more in the pipeline. Everything you see in this entire booth has been innovated and worked with partnerships from Intel to Microsoft to, uh, to (stutters) Wind River and Red Hat and others. You go all the way around the booth, everything here has partnerships at its core. And why don't we go to the next section here where we're going to be showing how we're pulling that all together in our open ecosystems labs to drive that innovation? >> So Aaron, you talked about the kinds of validation and testing that goes on, so that you can prove out an open stack to deliver the same kinds of reliability and performance and availability that we expect from a wireless network. But in the opens- in the open world, uh, what are we looking at here? >> Yeah absolutely. So one of the- one of the challenges to a very big, broad open ecosystem is the complexity of integrating, deploying, and managing these, especially at telecom scale. You're not talking about thousands of servers in one site, you're talking about one server in thousands of sites. So how do you deploy that predictable stack and then also manage that at scale? I'm going to show you two places where we're talkin' about that. So, this is actually representing an area that we've been innovating in recently around creating an integrated infrastructure and virtualization stack for the telecom industry. We've been doing this for years in IT with VxBlocks and VxRails and others. Here what you see is we got, uh, Dell hardware infrastructure, we've got, uh, an open platform for virtualization providers, in this case we've created an infrastructure block for Red Hat to be able to supply an infrastructure for core operations and Packet Cores for telecoms. On the other side of this, you can actually see what we're doing with Wind River to drive innovation around RAN and being able to simplify RAN- vRAN and O-RAN deployments. >> What does that virtualization look like? Are we talking about, uh, traditional virtual machines with OSs, or is this containerized cloud native? What does it look like? >> Yeah, it's actually both, so it can support, uh, virtual, uh-uh, software as well as containerized software, so we leverage the (indistinct) distributions for these to be able to deploy, you know, cloud native applications, be able to modernize how they're deploying these applications across the telecom network. So in this case with Red Hat, uh, (stutters) leveraging OpenShift in order to support containerized apps in your Packet Core environments. >> So what are- what are some of the kinds of things that you can do once you have infrastructure like this deployed? >> Yeah, I mean by- by partnering broadly across the ecosystem with VMware, with Red Hat, uh, with- with Wind River and with others, it gives them the ability to be able to deploy the right virtualization software in their network for the types of applications they're deploying. They might want to use Red Hat in their core, they may want to use Wind River in their RAM, they may want to use, uh, Microsoft or VMware for their- for their Edge workloads, and we allow them to be able to deploy all those, but centrally manage those with a common user interface and a common set of APIs. >> Okay, well I'm dying to understand the link between this and the Lego city that the viewers can't see, yet, but it's behind me. Let's take a look. >> So let's take a look at the Lego city that shows how we not deploy just one of these, but dozens or hundreds of these at scale across a cityscape. >> So Aaron, I know we're not in Copenhagen. What's all the Lego about? >> Yeah, so the Lego city here is to show- and, uh, really there's multiple points of Presence across an entire Metro area that we want to be able to manage if we're a telecom provider. We just talked about one infrastructure block. What if I wanted to deploy dozens of these across the city to be able to manage my network, to be able to manage, uh, uh- to be able to deploy private mobility potentially out into a customer enterprise environment, and be able to manage all of these, uh, very simply and easily from a common interface? >> So it's interesting. Now I think I understand why you are VP of marketing for both telecom and Edge. Just heard- just heard a lot about Edge and I can imagine a lot of internet of things, things, hooked up at that Edge. >> Yeah, so why don't we actually go over to another area? We're actually going to show you how one small microbrewery (stutters) in one of our cities nearby, uh, (stutters) my hometown in Massachusetts is actually using this technology to go from more of an analyzed- analog world to digitizing their business to be able to brew better beer. >> So Aaron, you bring me to a brewery. What do we have- what do we have going on here? >> Yeah, so, actually (stutters) about- about a year ago or so, I- I was able to get my team to come together finally after COVID to be able to meet each other and have a nice team event. One of those nights, we went out to dinner at a- at a brewery called "Exhibit 'A'" in Massachusetts, and they actually gave us a tour of their facilities and showed us how they actually go through the process of brewing beer. What we saw as we were going through it, interestingly, was that everything was analog. They literally had people with pen and paper walking around checking time and temperature and the process of brewing the beer, and they weren't asking for help, but we actually saw an opportunity where what we're doing to help businesses digitize what they're doing in their manufacturing floor can actually help them optimize how they build whatever product they're building, in this case it was beer. >> Hey Warren, good to meet you! What do we have goin' on? >> Yeah, it's all right. So yeah, basically what we did is we took some of their assets in the, uh, brewery that were completely manually monitored. People were literally walking around the floor with clipboards, writing down values. And we censorized the asset, in this case fermentation tanks and we measured the, uh, pressure and the temperature, which in fermentation are very key to monitor those, because if they get out of range the entire batch of beer can go bad or you don't get the consistency from batch to batch if you don't tightly monitor those. So we censorized the fermentation tank, brought that into an industrial I/O network, and then brought that into a Dell gateway which is connected 5G up to the cloud, which then that data comes to a tablet or a phone, which they, rather than being out on the floor and monitor it, can look at this data remotely at any time. >> So I'm not sure the exact date, the first time we have evidence of beer being brewed by humanity... >> Yep. >> But I know it's thousands of years ago. So it's taken that long to get to the point where someone had to come along, namely Dell, to actually digitally transform the beer business. Is this sort of proof that if you can digitally transform this, you can digitally transform anything? >> Absolutely. You name it, anything that's being manufactured, sold, uh, uh, taken care of, (stutters) any business out there that's looking to be able to be modernize and deliver better service to their customers can benefit from technologies like this. >> So we've taken a look at the ecosystem, the way that you validate architectures, we've seen an example of that kind of open architecture. Now we've seen a real world use case. Do you want to take a look a little deeper under the covers and see what's powering all of this? >> We just this week announced a new line of servers that power Edge and RAN use cases, and I want to introduce Mike to kind of take us through what we've been working on and really what the power of what this providing. >> Hey Mike, welcome to theCube. >> Oh, glad- glad to be here. So, what I'd really like to talk about are the three new XR series servers that we just announced last week and we're showing here at Mobile World Congress. They are all short depth, ruggedized, uh, very environmentally tolerant, and able to withstand, you know, high temperatures, high humidities, and really be deployed to places where traditional data center servers just can't handle, you know, due to one fact or another, whether it's depth or the temperature. And so, the first one I'd like to show you is the XR7620. This is, uh, 450 millimeters deep, it's designed for, uh, high levels of acceleration so it can support up to 2-300 watt, uh, GPUs. But what I really want to show you over here, especially for Mobile World Congress, is our new XR8000. The XR8000 is based on Intel's latest Sapphire Rapids technology, and this is- happens to be one of the first, uh, EE boost processors that is out, and basically what it is (stutters) an embedded accelerator that makes, uh, the- the processing of vRAN loads very, uh, very efficient. And so they're actually projecting a, uh, 3x improvement, uh, of processing per watt over the previous generation of processors. This particular unit is also sledded. It's very much like, uh, today's traditional baseband unit, so it's something that is designed for low TCO and easy maintenance in the field. This is the frew. When anything fails, you'll pull one out, you pop a new one in, it comes back into service, and the- the, uh, you know, your radio is- is, uh, minimally disrupted. >> Yeah, would you describe this as quantitative and qualitative in terms of the kinds of performance gains that these underlying units are delivering to us? I mean, this really kind of changes the game, doesn't it? It's not just about more, is it about different also in terms of what we can do? >> Well we are (stutters) to his point, we are able to bring in new accelerator technologies. Not only are we doing it with the Intel, uh, uh, uh, of the vRAN boost technologies, but also (stutters) we can bring it, too, but there's another booth here where we're actually working with our own accelerator cards and other accelerator cards from our partners across the industry to be able to deliver the price and performance capabilities required by a vRAN or an O-RAN deployment in the network. So it's not- it's not just the chip technology, it's the integration and the innovation we're doing with others, as well as, of course, the unique power cooling capabilities that Dell provides in our servers that really makes these the most efficient way of being able to power a network. >> Any final thoughts recapping the whole picture here? >> Yeah, I mean I would just say if anybody's, uh, i- is still here in Mobile World Congress, wants to come and learn what we're doing, I only showed you a small section of the demos we've got here. We've got 13 demos across on 8th floor here. Uh, for those of you who want to talk to us (stutters) and have meetings with us, we've got 13 meeting rooms back there, over 500 costumer partner meetings this week, we've got some whisper suites for those of you who want to come and talk to us but we're innovating on going forward. So, you know, there's a lot that we're doing, we're really excited, there's a ton of passion at this event, and, uh, we're really excited about where the industry is going and our role in it. >> 'Preciate the tour, Aaron. Thanks Mike. >> Mike: Thank you! >> Well, for theCube... Again, Dave Nicholson here. Thanks for joining us on this tour of Dell's Presence here at MWC 2023.

(inspirational music) >> theCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies. Creating technologies that drive human progress. (uplifting electronic music) (crowd chattering in background) >> Hi everybody. We're back at the Fira in Barcelona. Winding up our four day wall-to-wall coverage of MWC23 theCUBE has been thrilled to cover the telco transformation. Dave Vellante with Dave Nicholson. Really excited to have NTT on. Shahid Ahmed is the Group EVP of New Ventures and Innovation at NTT in from Chicago. Welcome to Barcelona. Welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you for having me over. >> So, really interesting title. You have, you know, people might not know NTT you know, huge Japan telco but a lot of other businesses, explain your business. >> So we do a lot of things. Most of us are known for our Docomo business in Japan. We have one of the largest wireless cellular carriers in the world. We serve most of Japan. Outside of Japan, we are B2B systems, integration, professional services company. So we offer managed services. We have data centers, we have undersea cables. We offer all kinds of outsourcing services. So we're a big company. >> So there's a narrative out there that says, you know, 5G, it's a lot of hype, not a lot of adoption. Nobody's ever going to make money at 5G. You have a different point of view, I understand. You're like leaning into 5G and you've actually got some traction there. Explain that. >> So 5G can be viewed from two lenses. One is just you and I using our cell phones and we get 5G coverage over it. And the other one is for businesses to use 5G, and we call that private 5G or enterprise grade 5G. Two very separate distinct things, but it is 5G in the end. Now the big debate here in Europe and US is how to monetize 5G. As a consumer, you and I are not going to pay extra for 5G. I mean, I haven't. I just expect the carrier to offer faster, cheaper services. And so would I pay extra? Not really. I just want a reliable network from my carrier. >> Paid up for the good camera though, didn't you? >> I did. (Dave and Dave laughing) >> I'm waiting for four cameras now. >> So the carriers are in this little bit of a pickle at the moment because they've just spent billions of dollars, not only on spectrum but the infrastructure needed to upgrade to 5G, yet nobody's willing to pay extra for that 5G service. >> Oh, right. >> So what do they do? And one idea is to look at enterprises, companies, industrial companies, manufacturing companies who want to build their own 5G networks to support their own use cases. And these use cases could be anything from automating the surveyor belt to cameras with 5G in it to AGVs. These are little carts running around warehouses picking up products and goods, but they have to be connected all the time. Wifi doesn't work all the time there. And so those businesses are willing to pay for 5G. So your question is, is there a business case for 5G? Yes. I don't think it's in the consumer side. I think it's in the business side. And that's where NTT is finding success. >> So you said, you know, how they going to make money, right? You very well described the telco dilemma. We heard earlier this week, you know, well, we could tax the OTT vendors, like Netflix of course shot back and said, "Well, we spent a lot of money on content. We're driving a lot of value. Why don't you help us pay for the content development?" Which is incredibly expensive. I think I heard we're going to tax the developers for API calls on the network. I'm not sure how well that's going to work out. Look at Twitter, you know, we'll see. And then yeah, there's the B2B piece. What's your take on, we heard the Orange CEO say, "We need help." You know, maybe implying we're going to tax the OTT vendors, but we're for net neutrality, which seems like it's completely counter-posed. What's your take on, you know, fair share in the network? >> Look, we've seen this debate unfold in the US for the last 10 years. >> Yeah. >> Tom Wheeler, the FCC chairman started that debate and he made great progress and open internet and net neutrality. The thing is that if you create a lane, a tollway, where some companies have to pay toll and others don't have to, you create an environment where the innovation could be stifled. Content providers may not appear on the scene anymore. And with everything happening around AI, we may see that backfire. So creating a toll for rich companies to be able to pay that toll and get on a faster speed internet, that may work some places may backfire in others. >> It's, you know, you're bringing up a great point. It's one of those sort of unintended consequences. You got to be be careful because the little guy gets crushed in that environment, and then what? Right? Then you stifle innovation. So, okay, so you're a fan of net neutrality. You think the balance that the US model, for a change, maybe the US got it right instead of like GDPR, who sort of informed the US on privacy, maybe the opposite on net neutrality. >> I think so. I mean, look, the way the US, particularly the FCC and the FTC has mandated these rules and regulation. I think it's a nice balance. FTC is all looking at big tech at the moment, but- >> Lena Khan wants to break up big tech. I mean for, you know, you big tech, boom, break 'em up, right? So, but that's, you know- >> That's a whole different story. >> Yeah. Right. We could talk about that too, if you want. >> Right. But I think that we have a balanced approach, a measured approach. Asking the content providers or the developers to pay for your innovative creative application that's on your phone, you know, that's asking for too much in my opinion. >> You know, I think you're right though. Government did do a good job with net neutrality in the US and, I mean, I'm just going to go my high horse for a second, so forgive me. >> Go for it. >> Market forces have always done a better job at adjudicating, you know, competition. Now, if a company's a monopoly, in my view they should be, you know, regulated, or at least penalized. Yeah, but generally speaking, you know the attack on big tech, I think is perhaps misplaced. I sat through, and the reason it's relevant to Mobile World Congress or MWC, is I sat through a Nokia presentation this week and they were talking about Bell Labs when United States broke up, you know, the US telcos, >> Yeah. >> Bell Labs was a gem in the US and now it's owned by Nokia. >> Yeah. >> Right? And so you got to be careful about, you know what you wish for with breaking up big tech. You got AI, you've got, you know, competition with China- >> Yeah, but the upside to breaking up Ma Bell was not just the baby Bells and maybe the stranded orphan asset of Bell Labs, but I would argue it led to innovation. I'm old enough to remember- >> I would say it made the US less competitive. >> I know. >> You were in junior high school, but I remember as an adult, having a rotary dial phone and having to pay for that access, and there was no such- >> Yeah, but they all came back together. The baby Bells are all, they got all acquired. And the cable company, it was no different. So I don't know, do you have a perspective of this? Because you know this better than I do. >> Well, I think look at Nokia, just they announced a whole new branding strategy and new brand. >> I like the brand. >> Yeah. And- >> It looks cool. >> But guess what? It's B2B oriented. >> (laughs) Yeah. >> It's no longer consumer, >> Right, yeah. >> because they felt that Nokia brand phone was sort of misleading towards a lot of business to business work that they do. And so they've oriented themselves to B2B. Look, my point is, the carriers and the service providers, network operators, and look, I'm a network operator, too, in Japan. We need to innovate ourselves. Nobody's stopping us from coming up with a content strategy. Nobody's stopping a carrier from building a interesting, new, over-the-top app. In fact, we have better control over that because we are closer to the customer. We need to innovate, we need to be more creative. I don't think taxing the little developer that's building a very innovative application is going to help in the long run. >> NTT Japan, what do they have a content play? I, sorry, I'm not familiar with it. Are they strong in content, or competitive like Netflix-like, or? >> We have relationships with them, and you remember i-mode? >> Yeah. Oh yeah, sure. >> Remember in the old days. I mean, that was a big hit. >> Yeah, yeah, you're right. >> Right? I mean, that was actually the original app marketplace. >> Right. >> And the application store. So, of course we've evolved from that and we should, and this is an evolution and we should look at it more positively instead of looking at ways to regulate it. We should let it prosper and let it see where- >> But why do you think that telcos generally have failed at content? I mean, AT&T is sort of the exception that proves the rule. I mean, they got some great properties, obviously, CNN and HBO, but generally it's viewed as a challenging asset and others have had to diversify or, you know, sell the assets. Why do you think that telcos have had such trouble there? >> Well, Comcast owns also a lot of content. >> Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. >> And I think, I think that is definitely a strategy that should be explored here in Europe. And I think that has been underexplored. I, in my opinion, I believe that every large carrier must have some sort of content strategy at some point, or else you are a pipe. >> Yeah. You lose touch with a customer. >> Yeah. And by the way, being a dump pipe is okay. >> No, it's a lucrative business. >> It's a good business. You just have to focus. And if you start to do a lot of ancillary things around it then you start to see the margins erode. But if you just focus on being a pipe, I think that's a very good business and it's very lucrative. Everybody wants bandwidth. There's insatiable demand for bandwidth all the time. >> Enjoy the monopoly, I say. >> Yeah, well, capital is like an organism in and of itself. It's going to seek a place where it can insert itself and grow. Do you think that the questions around fair share right now are having people wait in the wings to see what's going to happen? Because especially if I'm on the small end of creating content, creating services, and there's possibly a death blow to my fixed costs that could be coming down the line, I'm going to hold back and wait. Do you think that the answer is let's solve this sooner than later? What are your thoughts? >> I think in Europe the opinion has been always to go after the big tech. I mean, we've seen a lot of moves either through antitrust, or other means. >> Or the guillotine! >> That's right. (all chuckle) A guillotine. Yes. And I've heard those directly. I think, look, in the end, EU has to decide what's right for their constituents, the countries they operate, and the economy. Frankly, with where the economy is, you got recession, inflation pressures, a war, and who knows what else might come down the pipe. I would be very careful in messing with this equilibrium in this economy. Until at least we have gone through this inflation and recessionary pressure and see what happens. >> I, again, I think I come back to markets, ultimately, will adjudicate. I think what we're seeing with chatGPT is like a Netscape moment in some ways. And I can't predict what's going to happen, but I can predict that it's going to change the world. And there's going to be new disruptors that come about. That just, I don't think Amazon, Google, Facebook, Apple are going to rule the world forever. They're just, I guarantee they're not, you know. They'll make it through. But there's going to be some new companies. I think it might be open AI, might not be. Give us a plug for NTT at the show. What do you guys got going here? Really appreciate you coming on. >> Thank you. So, you know, we're showing off our private 5G network for enterprises, for businesses. We see this as a huge opportunities. If you look around here you've got Rohde & Schwarz, that's the industrial company. You got Airbus here. All the big industrial companies are here. Automotive companies and private 5G. 5G inside a factory, inside a hospital, a warehouse, a mining operation. That's where the dollars are. >> Is it a meaningful business for you today? >> It is. We just started this business only a couple of years ago. We're seeing amazing growth and I think there's a lot of good opportunities there. >> Shahid Ahmed, thanks so much for coming to theCUBE. It was great to have you. Really a pleasure. >> Thanks for having me over. Great questions. >> Oh, you're welcome. All right. For David Nicholson, Dave Vellante. We'll be back, right after this short break, from the Fira in Barcelona, MWC23. You're watching theCUBE. (uplifting electronic music)

(gentle upbeat music) >> Announcer: theCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies. Creating technologies that drive human progress. (bright upbeat music) >> We're back in Barcelona at the Fira. My name is Dave Vellante. I'm here with David Nicholson. We're live at MWC23, day four of the coverage. The show is still rocking. You walk the floor, it's jamming. People are lined up to get in the copter, in the right. It's amazing. Planes, trains, automobiles, digitization of analog businesses. We're going to talk private wireless here with Dell. Sarvesh Sharma, the Global Director for Edge and Private Mobility Solutions practice at Dell. And John McCready is a Senior Director for 5G Solutions and product management at Dell Technologies. Guys, good to see you. >> Likewise, likewise. >> Good to see you too. >> Private wireless. It's the buzz of the show. Everybody's talking about it. What's Dell's point of view on that? >> So Dell is, obviously, interested entering the private wireless game, as it's a good part of the overall enterprise IT space. As you move more and more into the different things. What we announced here, is sort of our initial partnerships with some key players like Airspan and expedo and AlphaNet. Players that are important in the space. Dell's going to provide an overall system integration solution wrap along with our Edge BU as well. And we think that we can bring really good solutions to our enterprise customers. >> Okay, I got to ask you about AlphaNet. So HPE pulled a little judo move they waited till you announced your partnership and then they bought the company. What, you know, what's your opinion on that? You going to, you going to dump AlphaNet, you're going to keep 'em? >> No. >> We're open Ecosystem. >> Yeah, it's an open ecosystem. We announce these are our initial partners, you know we're going to announce additional partners that was always the case. You know, there's a lot of good players in this space that bring different pros and cons. We got to be able to match the solution requirements of all our customers. And so we'll continue to partner with them and with others. >> Good, good answer, I like that. So some of these solutions are sort of out of the box, others require more integration. Can you talk about your, the spectrum of your portfolio? >> So I'm glad you brought up the integration part, right? I mean, if you look at private wireless, private mobility it is not a sell by itself. At the end of the day what the enterprise wants is not just private mobility. They're looking for an outcome. Which means from an integration perspective, you need somebody who can integrate the infrastructure stack. But that's not enough. You need somebody who can bring in the application stack to play and integrate that application stack with the enterprises IT OT. And that's not enough. You need somebody to put those together. And Dell is ideally suited to do all of this, right? We have strong partners that can bring the infrastructure stack to play. We have a proven track record of managing the IT and the enterprise stack. So we are very excited to say, "Hey, this is the sweet spot for us. And if there was a right to win the edge, we have it." >> Can you explain, I mean, people might be saying, well, why do I even need private wireless? I got Wi-Fi. I know it's kind of a dumb question for people who are in the business, but explain to folks in the audience who may not understand the intersection of the two. >> So, yeah, so I think, you know, wireless is a great techno- pardon me, Wi-Fi is a great technology for taking your laptop to the conference room. You know, it's effectively wireless LAN Where private 5G and before that private LTE had come into play is where there's a number of attributes of your application, what you're using it for, for which Wi-Fi is not as well suited. And so, you know, that plays out in different verticals in different ways. Either maybe you need a much higher capacity than Wi-Fi, better security than Wi-Fi, wider coverage like outdoor, and in many cases a more predictable reliability. So cellular is just a different way of handling the wireless interface that provides those attributes. So, you know, I think at the beginning, the first several years, you know Wi-Fi and 5G are going to live side by side in the enterprise for their different roles. How that plays out in the long term? We'll see how they each evolve. >> But I think anybody can relate to that. I mean, Wi-Fi's fine, you know, we have our issues with Wi-Fi. I'm having a lot of issues with Wi-Fi this week, but generally speaking, it works just fine. It's ubiquitous, it's cheap, okay. But I would not want to run my factory on it and rely on it for my robots that are shipping products, right? So that really is kind of the difference. It's really an industry 4.0 type. >> Yeah, exactly. So I mean, manufacturing's an important vertical, but things of energy and mining and things like that they're all outdoor, right? So you actually need the scale that comes, with a higher power technology, and even, you know just basic things like running cameras in a retail store and using AI to watch for certain things. You get a much better latency performance on private 5G and therefore are able to run more sophisticated applications. >> So I could be doing realtime inference. I can imagine Dave, I got an arm processor I'm doing some realtime inference AI at the Edge. You know, you need something like 5G to be able to do that, you can't be doing that over Wi-Fi. >> Yeah >> You nailed it. I mean that's exactly the difference, right? I mean if you look at Wi-Fi, it grow out from a IT enabled mode, right? You got to replace an ethernet. It was an IT extension. A LAN extension. Cellular came up from the mode of, "Hey, when I have that call, I need for it to be consistent and I need for it to be always available," right? So it's a different way of looking at it. Not to say one is better, the other is not better. It's just a different philosophy behind the technologies and they're going to coexist because they meet diverse needs. >> Now you have operators who embrace the idea of 5G obviously, and even private 5G. But the sort of next hurdle to overcome for some, is the idea of open standards. What does the landscape look like right now in terms of those conversations? Are you still having to push people over that hump, to get them beyond the legacy of proprietary closed stacks? >> Yeah, so I think I look, there are still people who are advocating that. And I think in the carrier's core networks it's going to take a little longer their main, you know macro networks that they serve the general public. In the private network though, the opportunity to use open standard and open technology is really strong because that's how you bring the innovation. And that's what we need in order to be able to solve all these different business problems. You know, the problems in retail, and healthcare and energy, they're different. And so you need to be able to use this open stack and be able to bring different elements of technology and blend it together in order to serve it. Otherwise we won't serve it. We'll all fail. So that's why I think it's going to have a quicker path in private. >> And the only thing to add to that is if you look at private 5G and the deployment of private LTE or private 5G, right? There is no real technology debt that you carry. So it's easy for us to say, "Hey, the operators are not listening, they're not going open." But hey, they have a technical debt, they have 2G, 3G, 4G, 5G, systems, right? >> Interviewer: Sure. >> But the reason we are so excited about private 5G and private 4G, is right off the bat when we go into an enterprise space, we can go open. >> So what exactly is Dell's role here? How do you see, obviously you make hardware and you have solutions, but you got to open ecosystems. You got, you know, you got labs, what do you see your role in the ecosystem? Kind of a disruptor here in this, when I walk around this show. >> Well a disruptor, also a solution provider, and system integrator. You know, Sarvesh and I are part of the telecom practice. We have a big Edge practice in Dell as well. And so for this space around private 5G, we're really teamed up with our cohort in the Edge business unit. And think about this as, it's not just private 5G. It's what are you doing with it? That requires storage, it requires compute, it requires other applications. So Dell brings that entire package. There definitely are players who are just focused on the connectivity, but our view is, that's not enough. To ask the enterprise to integrate that all themself. I don't think that's going to work. You need to bring the connectivity and the application to storage compute the whole solution. >> Explain Telecom and and Edge. They're different but they're like cousins in the Dell organization. Where do you guys divide the two? >> You're saying within Dell? >> Yeah, within Dell. >> Yeah, so if you look at Dell, right? Telecom is one of our most newest business units. And the way it has formed is like we talk Edge all the time, right? It's not new. Edge has always been around. So our enterprise Edge has always been around. What has changed with 5G is now you can seamlessly move between the enterprise Edge and the telecom Edge. And for that happen you had to bring in a telecom systems business unit that can facilitate that evolution. The next evolution of seamless Edge that goes across from enterprise all the way into the telco and other places where Edge needs to be. >> Same question for the market, because I remember at Dell Tech World last year, I interviewed Lowe's and the discussion was about the Edge. >> John: Yep. >> What they're doing in their Edge locations. So that's Edge. That's cool. But then I had, I had another discussion with an agriculture firm. They had like the massive greenhouses and they were growing these awesome tomatoes. Well that was Edge too. It was actually further Edge. So I guess those are both Edge, right? >> Sarvesh: Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Spectrum there, right? And then the telecom business, now you're saying is more closely aligned with that? >> Right. >> Depending on what you're trying to do. The appropriate place for the Edge is different. You, you nailed it exactly, right. So if you need wide area, low latency, the Edge being in the telecom network actually makes a lot of sense 'cause they can serve wide area low latency. If you're just doing your manufacturing plant or your logistics facility or your agricultural growing site, that's the Edge. So that's exactly right. And the tech, the reason why they're close cousins between telecom and that is, you're going to need some kind of connectivity, some kind of connectivity from that Edge, in order to execute whatever it's you're trying to do with your business. >> Nature's Fresh was the company. I couldn't think of Nature's Fresh. They're great. Keith awesome Cube guest. >> You mentioned this mix of Wi-Fi and 5G. I know it's impossible to predict with dates certain, you know, when this, how's this is going to develop. But can you imagine a scenario where at some point in time we don't think in terms of Wi-Fi because everything is essentially enabled by a SIM or am I missing a critical piece there, in terms of management of spectrum and the complicated governmental? >> Yeah, there is- >> Situation, am I missing something? It seems like a logical progression to me, but what am I missing? >> Well, there is something to be said about spectrum, right? If you look at Wi-Fi, as I said, the driver behind the technology is different. However, I fully agree with you that at some point in time, whether it's Wi-Fi behind, whether it's private 5G behind becomes a moot point. It's simply a matter of, where is my data being generated? What is the best technology for me to use to ingest that data so I can derive value out of that data. If it means Wi-Fi, so be it. If it means cellular, so be it. And if you look at cellular right? The biggest thing people talk about SIMs. Now if you look at 5G standard. In 5G standard, you have EAPTLS, which means there is a possibility that SIMs in the future go away for IoT devices. I'm not saying they need to go away for consumer devices, they probably need to be there. But who's to say going ahead for IoT devices, they all become SIM free. So at that point, whether you Wi-Fi or 5G doesn't matter. >> Yeah, by the way, on the spectrum side people are starting to think about the concept. You might have heard this NRU, new radio unlicensed. So it's running the Wi-Fi standard, but in the unlicensed bands like Wi-Fi. So, and then the last piece is of course you know, the cost, the reality it stays 5G still new technology, the endpoints, you know, what would go in your laptop or a sensor et cetera. Today that's more expensive than Wi-Fi. So we need to get the volume curve down a little bit for that to really hit every application. I would guess your vision is correct. >> David: Yep >> But who can predict? >> Yeah, so explain more about what the unlicensed piece means for organizations. What does that for everybody? >> That's more of a future thing. So you know, just- >> No, right, but let's put on our telescope. >> Okay, so it's true today that Wi-Fi traditionally runs in the bands that have been licensed by the government and it's a country by country thing, right? >> Dave: Right. >> What we did in the United States was CBRS, is different than what they've done in Germany where they took part of the Zurich C-band and gave it to the enterprises. The telco's not involved. And now that's been copied in Japan and Korea. So it's one of the complications unfortunately in the market. Is that you have this different approach by regulators in different countries. Wi-Fi, the unlicensed band is a nice global standard. So if you could run NR just as 5G, right? It's another name for 5G, run that in the unlicensed bands, then you solve the spectrum problem that Dave was asking about. >> Which means that the market really opens up and now. >> It would be a real enabler >> Innovation. >> Exactly. >> And the only thing I would add to that is, right, there are some enterprises who have the size and scale to kind of say, "Hey, I'm going the unlicensed route. I can do things on my own." There are some enterprises that still are going to rely on the telcos, right? So I don't want to make a demon out of the telcos that you own the spectrum, no. >> David: Sure. >> They will be offering a very valuable service to a massive number of small, medium enterprises and enterprises that span regional boundaries to say, hey we can bring that consistent experience to you. >> But the primary value proposition has been connectivity, right? >> Yes. >> I mean, we can all agree on that. And you hear different monetization models, we can't allow the OTT vendors to do it again. You know, we want to tax Netflix. Okay, we've been talking about that all week. But there may be better models. >> Sarvesh: Yes. >> Right, and so where does private network fit into the monetization models? Let's follow the money here. >> Actually you've brought up an extremely important point, right? Because if you look at why haven't 5G networks taken off, one of the biggest things people keep contrasting is what is the cost of a Wi-Fi versus the cost of deploying a 5G, right? And a portion of the cost of deploying a 5G is how do you commercialize that spectrum? What is going to be the cost of that spectrum, right? So the CSPs will have to eventually figure out a proper commercialization model to say, hey listen, I can't just take what I've been doing till date and say this is how I make. Because if you look at 5G, the return of investment is incremental. Any use case you take, unless, let's take smart manufacturing, unless the factory decides I'm going to rip and replace everything by a 5G, they're going to introduce a small use case. You look at the investment for that use case, you'll say Hmm, I'm not making money. But guess what? Once you've deployed it and you bring use case number two, three, four, five, now it starts to really add value. So how can a CSP acknowledge that and create commercial models to enable that is going to be key. Like one of the things that Dell does in terms of as a service solution that we offer. I think that is a crucial way of really kick starting 5G adoption. >> It's Metcalfe's Law in this world, right? The first telephone, not a lot of value, second, I can call one person, but you know if I can call a zillion now it's valuable. >> John: Now you got data. >> Yeah, right, you used a phrase, rip and replace. What percentage of the market that you are focusing on is the let's go in and replace something, versus the let's help you digitally transform your business. And this is a networking technology that we can use to help you digitally transform? The example that you guys have with the small breweries, a perfect example. >> Sarvesh: Yeah. >> You help digitize, you know, digitally transform their business. You weren't going in and saying, I see that you have these things connected via Wi-Fi, let's rip those out and put SIMs in. >> No. >> Nope, so you know- >> That's exactly right. It's enabling new things that either couldn't be achieved before or weren't. So from a private 5G perspective, it's not going to be rip and replaced. As I said, I think we'll coexist with Wi-Fi, it's still got a great role. It's enabling those, solving those business problems that either hadn't been solved before or could not be solved with other technology. >> How are you guys using AI? Everybody's talking about ChatGPT. I love ChatGPT, we use it all the time. Love it, hate it, you know, whatever. It's a fun topic. But AI generally is here in a way that it wasn't when the enterprise disaggregated. >> John: Right. >> So there's AI, there's automation, there's opportunities there. How do they fit into private 5G? >> So if you look at it, right, AI, AI/ML is actually crucial to value extraction from that data, because all private 5G is doing is giving you access to that precious data. But that data by itself means nothing, right? You get access to the data, extracting value out of the data that bring in business value is all going to be AI/ML. Whether it's computer vision, whether it's data analytics on the fly so that you can, you know do your closed loop controls or what have you. All of these are going to be AI/ML models. >> Dave: Does it play into automation as well? >> Absolutely, 'cause they drive the automation, right? You learn your AI models, drive their automation. Control, closed loop control systems are a perfect example of their automation. >> Explain that further. Like give us an example. >> So for example, let's say we're talking about a smart manufacturing, right? So you have widgets coming down the pipe, right? You have your computer vision, you have your AI/ML model that says, "Hey, I'm starting to detect a consistent error in the product being manufactured. I'm going to close loop that automation and either tweak the settings of the machine, shut down the machine, open a workflow, escalate it for human intervention." All that automation is facilitated by the AI/ML models >> And that, and by the way, there's real money in that, right? If you're making your power and you're making it wrong, you don't detect it for hours, there's real money in fixing that >> Right. >> So I've got a, I've got an example albeit a slight, not even slightly, but a tragic one. Let's say you have a train that's rolling down the tracks at every several miles or so, temperature readings are taken from bearings in the train. >> Sarvesh: Yes, yes. >> Wouldn't it be nice to have that be happening in real time? >> Sarvesh: Yes. >> So it doesn't reach that critical point >> Yes. >> Where then you have a derailment. >> Yes. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> I mean, those are, it's doesn't sound sexy in terms of "Hey, what a great business use case that we can monetize." >> John: Yeah. >> But I'll bet you in hindsight that operator would've loved to have that capability. >> John: Yeah. >> Sarvesh: Right. >> To be able to shut the train down and not run. >> That's a great example where the carrier is actually, probably in a good position, right? Cause you got wide area, you want low latency. So the traditional carriers would be able in great position to provide that exact service. Telemetry is another great example. We've been talking about other kinds of automation, but just picking up measurements and so on. The other example of that is in oil and gas, right? As you've got pipelines running around you're measuring pressure, temperature, you detect a leak, >> David: Right. >> in minutes, not weeks. >> David: Right. >> So there's a lot of good examples of things like that >> To pick up in a point, Dave. You know, it's like you look at these big huge super tankers, right? They have big private networks on that super tanker to monitor everything. If on this train we had, you know, we hear about so many Edges, let's call one more the rolling Edge. >> Yeah. >> Right, that, that Edge is right on that locomotive tracking everything with AI/ML models, detecting things, warning people ahead of time shutting it down as needed. And that connectivity doesn't have to be wired. It can be a rolling wireless. It potentially could be a spectrum that's you know, open spectrum in the future. Or as you said, an operator could facilitate that. So many options, right? >> Yeah, got to double down on this. Look, I know 'cause I've been involved in some of these projects. Amusement park operators are doing this for rides. >> John: Yes. >> Sarvesh: Yep. >> So that they can optimize the amount of time the ride is up, so they can shorten lines >> Yes. >> So that they can get people into shops to buy food and souvenirs. >> John: Yes. >> Certainly we should be able to do it to protect infrastructure. >> Sarvesh: Absolutely. >> Right, so- >> But I think the ultimate point you're making is, it's actually quite finally segmented. There's so many different applications. And so that's why again, we come back to what we started with is at Dell, we're bringing the solution from Edge, compute, application, connectivity, and be able to bring that across all these different verticals and these different solutions. The other amusement park example, by the way, is as the rides start to invest in virtual reality, so you're moving, but you're seeing something, you need some technology like 5G to have low latency and keep that in sync and have a good experience on the ride. >> To 5G and beyond, gents. Thanks so much for coming on theCUBE. >> All right, thank you Dave. >> It was great to have you. >> Thank, thank you guys. >> Great to meet you guys. Thank you very much. >> Great, all right. Keep it right there. For David Nicholson and Dave Vellante, This is theCUBE's coverage of MWC23. Check out siliconangle.com for all the news. theCUBE.net is where all these videos live. John Furrier is in our Palo Alto office, banging out that news. Keep it right there. Be right back after this short break. (gentle upbeat music)

>> Narrator: theCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies. Creating technologies that drive human progress. (upbeat music) >> Hey, welcome back to the Fira in Barcelona. My name is Dave Vellante. I'm here with David Nicholson, day four of MWC '23. Show's winding down a little bit, but it's still pretty packed here. Lot of innovation, planes, trains, automobiles, and we're talking 5G all week, private networks, connected breweries. It's super exciting. Really happy to have Warren Jackson here as the Edge Gateway Product Technologist at Dell Technologies, and Scott Waller, the CTO of the 5G Open Innovation Lab. Folks, welcome to theCUBE. >> Good to be here. >> Really interesting stories that we're going to talk about. Let's start, Scott, with you, what is the Open Innovation Lab? >> So it was hatched three years ago. Ideated about a bunch of guys from Microsoft who ran startup ventures program, started the developers program over at Microsoft, if you're familiar with MSDN. And they came three years ago and said, how does CSPs working with someone like T-Mobile who's in our backyard, I'm from Seattle. How do they monetize the edge? You need a developer ecosystem of applications and use cases. That's always been the thing. The carriers are building the networks, but where's the ecosystem of startups? So we built a startup ecosystem that is sponsored by partners, Dell being one sponsor, Intel, Microsoft, VMware, Aspirant, you name it. The enterprise folks who are also in the connectivity business. And with that, we're not like a Y Combinator or a Techstars where it's investment first and it's all about funding. It's all about getting introductions from a startup who might have a VR or AI type of application or observability for 5G slicing, and bring that in front of the Microsoft's of the world, or the Intel's and the Dell's of the world that they might not have the capabilities to do it because they're still a small little startup with an MVP. So we really incubate. We're the connectors and build a network. We've had 101 startups over the last three years. They've raised over a billion dollars. And it's really valuable to our partners like T-Mobile and Dell, et cetera, where we're bringing in folks like Expedo and GenXComm and Firecell. Start up private companies that are around here they were cohorts from our program in the past. >> That's awesome because I've often, I mean, I've seen Dell get into this business and I'm like, wow, they've done a really good job of finding these guys. I wonder what the pipeline is. >> We're trying to create the pipeline for the entire industry, whether it's 5G on the edge for the CSPs, or it's for private enterprise networks. >> Warren, what's this cool little thing you got here? >> Yeah, so this is very unique in the Dell portfolio. So when people think of Dell, they think of servers laptops, et cetera. But what this does is it's designed to be deployed at the edge in harsh environments and it allows customers to do analytics, data collection at the edge. And what's unique about it is it's got an extended temperature range. There's no fan in this and there's lots of ports on it for data ingestion. So this is a smaller box Edge Gateway 3200. This is the product that we're using in the brewery. And then we have a bigger brother of this, the Edge Gateway 5200. So the value of it, you can scale depending on what your edge compute requirements are at the edge. >> So tell us about the brewery story. And you covered it, I know you were in the Dell booth, but it's basically an analog brewery. They're taking measurements and temperatures and then writing it down and then entering it in and somebody from your company saw it and said, "We can help you with this problem." Explain the story. >> Yeah, so Scott and I did a walkthrough of the brewery back in November timeframe. >> It's in Framingham, Mass. >> Framingham, Mass, correct. And basically, we talked to him, and we said, what keeps you guys up at night? What's a problem that we can solve? Very simple, a kind of a lower budget, didn't have a lot money to spend on it, but what problem can we solve that will realize great benefit for you? So we looked at their fermentation process, which was completely analog. Somebody was walking around with a clipboard looking at analog gauges. And what we did is we digitized that process. So what this did for them rather than being completely reactive, and by the time they realized there was something going wrong with the fermentation process, it's too late. A batch of scrap. This allowed them to be proactive. So anytime, anywhere on the tablet or a phone, they can see if that fermentation process is going out of range and do something about it before the batch gets scrapped. >> Okay. Amazing. And Scott, you got a picture of this workflow here? >> Yeah, actually this is the final product. >> Explain that. >> As Warren mentioned, the data is actually residing in the industrial side of the network So we wanted to keep the IT/OT separation, which is critical on the factory floor. And so all the data is brought in from the sensors via digital connection once it's converted and into the edge gateway. Then there's a snapshot of it using Telit deviceWISE, their dashboarding application, that is decoding all the digital readings, putting them in a nice dashboard. And then when we gave them, we realized another problem was they're using cheap little Chromebooks that they spill beer on once a week and throw them out. That's why they bought the cheap ones 'cause they go through them so fast. So we got a Dell Latitude Rugged notebook. This is a brand new tablet, but they have the dashboarding software. So no matter if they're out there on the floor, but because the data resides there on the factory they have access to be able to change the parameters. This one's in the maturation cycle. This one's in the crashing cycle where they're bringing the temperature back down, stopping the fermentation process, getting it ready to go to the canning side of the house. >> And they're doing all that from this dashboard. >> They're doing all from the dashboard. They also have a giant screen that we put up there that in the floor instead of walking a hundred yards back behind a whole bunch of machinery equipment from a safety perspective, now they just look up on the screen and go, "Oh, that's red. That's out of range." They're actually doing a bunch of cleaning and a bunch of other things right now, too. So this is real time from Boston. >> Dave: Oh okay. >> Scott: This is actually real time from Boston. >> I'm no hop master, but I'm looking at these things flashing at me and I'm thinking something's wrong with my beer. >> We literally just lit this up last week. So we're still tweaking a few things, but they're also learning around. This is a new capability they never had. Oh, we have the ability to alert and monitor at different processes with different batches, different brews, different yeast types. Then now they're also training and learning. And we're going to turn that into eventually a product that other breweries might be able to use. >> So back to the kind of nuts and bolts of the system. The device that you have here has essentially wifi antennas on the back. >> Warren: Correct. >> Pull that up again if you would, please. >> Now I've seen this, just so people are clear, there are also paddle 5G antennas that go on the other side. >> Correct. >> That's sort of the connection from the 5G network that then gets transmogrified, technical term guys, into wifi so the devices that are physically connected to the brew vats, don't know what they're called. >> Fermentation tanks. >> Fermentation tanks, thank you. Those are wifi. That's a wifi signal that's going into this. Is that correct? >> Scott: No. >> No, it's not. >> It's a hard wire. >> Okay, okay. >> But, you're right. This particular gateway. >> It could be wifi if it's hard wire. >> It could be, yes. Could be any technology really. >> This particular gateway is not outfitted with 5G, but something that was very important in this application was to isolate the IT network, which is on wifi and physically connected from the OT network, which is the 5G connection. So we're sending the data directly from the gateway up to the cloud. The two partners that we worked with on this project were ifm, big sensor manufacturer that actually did the wired sensors into an industrial network called IO-Link. So they're physically wired into the gateway and then in the gateway we have a solution from our partner Telit that has deviceWISE software that actually takes the data in, runs the analytics on it, the logic, and then visualizes that data locally on those panels and also up to their cloud, which is what we're looking at. So they can look at it locally, they're in the plant and then up in the cloud on a phone or a tablet, whatever, when they're at home. >> We're talking about a small business here. I don't know how many employees they have, but it's not thousands. And I love that you're talking about an IT network and an OT network. And so they wanted, it is very common when we talk about industrial internet of things use cases, but we're talking about a tiny business here. >> Warren: Correct. >> They wanted to separate those networks because of cost, because of contention. Explain why. >> Yeah, just because, I mean, they're running their ERP system, their payroll, all of their kind of the way they run their business on their IT network and you don't want to have the same traffic out on the factory floor on that network, so it was pretty important. And the other thing is we really, one of the things that we didn't want to do in this project is interrupt their production process at all. So we installed this entire system in two days. They didn't have to shut down, they didn't have to stop. We didn't have to interrupt their process at all. It was like we were invisible there and we spun the thing up and within two days, very simple, easy, but tremendous value for their business. >> Talk about new markets here. I mean, it's like any company that's analog that needs to go digital. It's like 99% of the companies on the planet. What are you guys seeing out there in terms of the types of examples beyond breweries? >> Yeah, I could talk to that. So I spent a lot of time over the last couple years running my own little IoT company and a lot of it being in agriculture. So like in Washington state, 70% of the world's hops is actually grown in Washington state. It's my hometown. But in the Ag producing regions, there's lack of connectivity. So there's interest in private networks because the carriers aren't necessarily deploying it. But because we have the vast amount of hops there's a lot of IPAs, a lot of hoppy IPAs that come out of Seattle. And with that, there's a ton of craft breweries that are about the same size, some are a little larger. Anheuser-Busch and InBev and Heineken they've got great IoT platforms. They've done it. They're mass scale, they have to digitize. But the smaller shops, they don't, when we talk about IT/OT separation, they're not aware of that. They think it's just, I get local broadband and I get wifi and one hotspot inside my facility and it works. So a little bit of it was the education. I have got years in IT/OT security in my background so that education and we come forward with a solution that actually does that for them. And now they're aware of it. So now when they're asking questions of other vendors that are trying to sell them some type of solution, they're inherently aware of what should be done so they're not vulnerable to ransomware attacks, et cetera. So it's known as the Purdue Model. >> Well, what should they do? >> We came in and keep it completely separated and educated them because in the end too we'll build a design guide and a starter kit out of this that other brewers can use. Because I've toured dozens of breweries in Washington, the exact same scenario, analog gauges, analog process, very manual. And in the end, when you ask the brewer, what do they want out of this? It keeps them up at night because if the temperature goes out of range, because the chiller fails, >> They ruined. >> That's $30,000 lost in beer. That's a lot to a small business. However, it's also once they start digitizing the data and to Warren's point, it's read-only. We're not changing any of the process. We augmented on top of their existing systems. We didn't change their process. But now they have the ability to look at the data and see batch to batch consistency. Quality doesn't always mean best, it means consistency from batch to batch. Every beer from exhibit A from yesterday to two months from now of the same style of beer should be the same taste, flavor, boldness, et cetera. This is giving them the insights on it. >> It's like St. Louis Buds, when we were kids. We would buy the St. Louis Buds 'cause they tasted better than the Merrimack Buds. And then Budweiser made them all the same. >> Must be an East coast thing. >> It's an old guy thing, Dave. You weren't born yet. >> I was in high school. Yeah, I was in high school. >> We like the hops. >> We weren't 21. Do me a favor, clarify OT versus IT. It's something we talk about all the time, but not everyone's familiar with that separation. Define OT for me. >> It's really the factory floor. You got IT systems that are ERP systems, billing, you're getting your emails, stuff like that. Where the ransomware usually gets infected in. The OT side is the industrial control network. >> David: What's the 'O' stand for? >> Operation. >> David: Operation? >> Yeah, the operations side. >> 'Cause some people will think objects 'cause we think internet of things. >> The industrial operations, think of it that way. >> But in a sense those are things that are connected. >> And you think of that as they are the safety systems as well. So a machine, if someone doesn't push the stop button, you'd think if there's a lot of traffic on that network, it isn't guaranteed that that stop button actually stops that blade from coming down, someone's going to lose their arm. So it's very tied to safety, reliability, low latency. It is crafted in design that it never touches the internet inherently without having to go through a security gateway which is what we did. >> You mentioned the large companies like InBev, et cetera. You're saying they're already there. Are they not part of your target market? Or are there ways that you can help them? Is this really more of a small to mid-size company? >> For this particular solution, I think so, yeah. Because the cost to entry is low. I mean, you talk about InBev, they have millions of dollars of budgets to spend on OT. So they're completely automated from top to bottom. But these little craft brewers, which they're everywhere in the US. Vermont, Washington state, they're completely manual. A lot of these guys just started in their garage. And they just scaled up and they got a cult kind of following around their beers. One thing that we found here this week, when you talk around edge and 5G and beer, those things get people excited. In our booth we're serving beer, and all these kind of topics, it brings people together. >> And it lets the little guy compete more effectively with the big giants. >> Correct. >> And how do you do more with less as the little guy is kind of the big thing and to Warren's point, we have folks come up and say, "Great, this is for beer, but what about wine? What about the fermentation process of wine?" Same materials in the end. A vessel of some sort, maybe it's stainless steel. The clamps are the same, the sensors are the same. The parameters like temperature are key in any type of fermentation. We had someone talking about olive oil and using that. It's the same sanitary beverage style equipment. We grabbed sensors that were off the shelf and then we integrated them in and used the set of platforms that we could. How do we rapidly enable these guys at the lowest possible cost with stuff that's at the shelf. And there's four different companies in the solution. >> We were having a conversation with T-Mobile a little earlier and she mentioned the idea of this sounding scary. And this is a great example of showing that in fact, at a relatively small scale, this technology makes a lot of sense. So from that perspective, of course you can implement private 5G networks at an industrial scale with tens of millions of dollars of investment. But what about all of the other things below? And that seems to be a perfect example. >> Yeah, correct. And it's one of the things with the gateway and having flexibility the way Dell did a great job of putting really good modems in it. It had a wide spectrum range of what bands they support. So being able to say, at a larger facility, I mean, if Heineken wants to deploy something like this, oh, heck yeah, they probably could do it. And they might have a private 5G network, but let's say T-Mobile offers a private offering on their public via a slice. It's easy to connect that radio to it. You just change the sims. >> Is that how the CSPs fit here? How are they monetized? >> Yeah, correct. So one of our partners is T-Mobile and so we're working with them. We've got other telco partners that are coming on board in our lab. And so we'll do the same thing. We're going to take this back and put it in the lab and offer it up as others because the baseline building blocks or Lego blocks per se can be used in a bunch of different industries. It's really that starter point of giving folks the idea of what's possible. >> So small manufacturing, agriculture you mentioned, any other sort of use cases we should tune into? >> I think it's environmental monitoring, all of that stuff, I see it in IoT deployments all over the world. Just the simple starter kits 'cause a farmer doesn't want to get sold a solution, a platform, where he's got to hire a bunch of coders and partner with the big carriers. He just wants something that works. >> Another use case that we see a lot, a high cost in a lot of these places is the cost of energy. And a lot of companies don't know what they're spending on electricity. So a very simple energy monitoring system like that, it's a really good ROI. I'm going to spend five or $10,000 on a system like this, but I'm going to save $20,000 over a year 'cause I'm able to see, have visibility into that data. That's a lot of what this story's about, just giving visibility into the process. >> It's very cool, and like you said, it gets people excited. Is it a big market? How do you size it? Is it a big TAM? >> Yeah, so one thing that Dell brings to the table in this space is people are buying their laptops, their servers and whatnot from Dell and companies are comfortable in doing business with Dell because of our model direct to customer and whatnot. So our ability to bring a device like this to the OT space and have them have that same user experience they have with laptops and our client products in a ruggedized solution like this and bring a lot of partners to the table makes it easy for our customers to implement this across all kinds of industries. >> So we're talking to billions, tens of billions. Do we know how big this market is? What's the TAM? I mean, come on, you work for Dell. You have to do a TAM analysis. >> Yes, no, yeah. I mean, it really is in the billions. The market is huge for this one. I think we just tapped into it. We're kind of focused in on the brewery piece of it and the liquor piece of it, but the possibilities are endless. >> Yeah, that's tip of the spear. Guys, great story. >> It's scalable. I think the biggest thing, just my final feedback is working and partnering with Dell is we got something as small as this edge gateway that I can run a Packet Core on and run a 5G standalone node and then have one of the small little 5G radios out there. And I've got these deployed in a farm. Give the farmer an idea of what's possible, give him a unit on his tractor, and now he can do something that, we're providing connectivity he had never had before. But as we scale up, we've got the big brother to this. When we scale up from that, we got the telco size units that we can put. So it's very scalable. It's just a great suite of offerings. >> Yeah, outstanding. Guys, thanks for sharing the story. Great to have you on theCUBE. >> Good to be with you today. >> Stop by for beer later. >> You know it. All right, Dave Vellante for Dave Nicholson and the entire CUBE team, we're here live at the Fira in Barcelona MWC '23 day four. Keep it right there. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: TheCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies, creating technologies that drive human progress. (upbeat music intro) (logo background tingles) >> Hi everybody, welcome back to day three of MWC23, my name is Dave Vellante and we're here live at the Theater of Barcelona, Lisa Martin, David Nicholson, John Furrier's in our studio in Palo Alto. Lot of buzz at the show, the Mobile World Daily Today, front page, Netflix chief hits back in fair share row, Greg Peters, the co-CEO of Netflix, talking about how, "Hey, you guys want to tax us, the telcos want to tax us, well, maybe you should help us pay for some of the content. Your margins are higher, you have a monopoly, you know, we're delivering all this value, you're bundling Netflix in, from a lot of ISPs so hold on, you know, pump the brakes on that tax," so that's the big news. Lockheed Martin, FOSS issues, AI guidelines, says, "AI's not going to take over your job anytime soon." Although I would say, your job's going to be AI-powered for the next five years. We're going to talk about data, we've been talking about the disaggregation of the telco stack, part of that stack is a data layer. John Kreisa is here, the CMO of Couchbase, John, you know, we've talked about all week, the disaggregation of the telco stacks, they got, you know, Silicon and operating systems that are, you know, real time OS, highly reliable, you know, compute infrastructure all the way up through a telemetry stack, et cetera. And that's a proprietary block that's really exploding, it's like the big bang, like we saw in the enterprise 20 years ago and we haven't had much discussion about that data layer, sort of that horizontal data layer, that's the market you play in. You know, Couchbase obviously has a lot of telco customers- >> John: That's right. >> We've seen, you know, Snowflake and others launch telco businesses. What are you seeing when you talk to customers at the show? What are they doing with that data layer? >> Yeah, so they're building applications to drive and power unique experiences for their users, but of course, it all starts with where the data is. So they're building mobile applications where they're stretching it out to the edge and you have to move the data to the edge, you have to have that capability to deliver that highly interactive experience to their customers or for their own internal use cases out to that edge, so seeing a lot of that with Couchbase and with our customers in telco. >> So what do the telcos want to do with data? I mean, they've got the telemetry data- >> John: Yeah. >> Now they frequently complain about the over-the-top providers that have used that data, again like Netflix, to identify customer demand for content and they're mopping that up in a big way, you know, certainly Amazon and shopping Google and ads, you know, they're all using that network. But what do the telcos do today and what do they want to do in the future? They're all talking about monetization, how do they monetize that data? >> Yeah, well, by taking that data, there's insight to be had, right? So by usage patterns and what's happening, just as you said, so they can deliver a better experience. It's all about getting that edge, if you will, on their competition and so taking that data, using it in a smart way, gives them that edge to deliver a better service and then grow their business. >> We're seeing a lot of action at the edge and, you know, the edge can be a Home Depot or a Lowe's store, but it also could be the far edge, could be a, you know, an oil drilling, an oil rig, it could be a racetrack, you know, certainly hospitals and certain, you know, situations. So let's think about that edge, where there's maybe not a lot of connectivity, there might be private networks going in, in the future- >> John: That's right. >> Private 5G networks. What's the data flow look like there? Do you guys have any customers doing those types of use cases? >> Yeah, absolutely. >> And what are they doing with the data? >> Yeah, absolutely, we've got customers all across, so telco and transportation, all kinds of service delivery and healthcare, for example, we've got customers who are delivering healthcare out at the edge where they have a remote location, they're able to deliver healthcare, but as you said, there's not always connectivity, so they need to have the applications, need to continue to run and then sync back once they have that connectivity. So it's really having the ability to deliver a service, reliably and then know that that will be synced back to some central server when they have connectivity- >> So the processing might occur where the data- >> Compute at the edge. >> How do you sync back? What is that technology? >> Yeah, so there's, so within, so Couchbase and Couchbase's case, we have an autonomous sync capability that brings it back to the cloud once they get back to whether it's a private network that they want to run over, or if they're doing it over a public, you know, wifi network, once it determines that there's connectivity and, it can be peer-to-peer sync, so different edge apps communicating with each other and then ultimately communicating back to a central server. >> I mean, the other theme here, of course, I call it the software-defined telco, right? But you got to have, you got to run on something, got to have hardware. So you see companies like AWS putting Outposts, out to the edge, Outposts, you know, doesn't really run a lot of database to mind, I mean, it runs RDS, you know, maybe they're going to eventually work with companies like... I mean, you're a partner of AWS- >> John: We are. >> Right? So do you see that kind of cloud infrastructure that's moving to the edge? Do you see that as an opportunity for companies like Couchbase? >> Yeah, we do. We see customers wanting to push more and more of that compute out to the edge and so partnering with AWS gives us that opportunity and we are certified on Outpost and- >> Oh, you are? >> We are, yeah. >> Okay. >> Absolutely. >> When did that, go down? >> That was last year, but probably early last year- >> So I can run Couchbase at the edge, on Outpost? >> Yeah, that's right. >> I mean, you know, Outpost adoption has been slow, we've reported on that, but are you seeing any traction there? Are you seeing any nibbles? >> Starting to see some interest, yeah, absolutely. And again, it has to be for the right use case, but again, for service delivery, things like healthcare and in transportation, you know, they're starting to see where they want to have that compute, be very close to where the actions happen. >> And you can run on, in the data center, right? >> That's right. >> You can run in the cloud, you know, you see HPE with GreenLake, you see Dell with Apex, that's essentially their Outposts. >> Yeah. >> They're saying, "Hey, we're going to take our whole infrastructure and make it as a service." >> Yeah, yeah. >> Right? And so you can participate in those environments- >> We do. >> And then so you've got now, you know, we call it supercloud, you've got the on-prem, you've got the, you can run in the public cloud, you can run at the edge and you want that consistent experience- >> That's right. >> You know, from a data layer- >> That's right. >> So is that really the strategy for a data company is taking or should be taking, that horizontal layer across all those use cases? >> You do need to think holistically about it, because you need to be able to deliver as a, you know, as a provider, wherever the customer wants to be able to consume that application. So you do have to think about any of the public clouds or private networks and all the way to the edge. >> What's different John, about the telco business versus the traditional enterprise? >> Well, I mean, there's scale, I mean, one thing they're dealing with, particularly for end user-facing apps, you're dealing at a very very high scale and the expectation that you're going to deliver a very interactive experience. So I'd say one thing in particular that we are focusing on, is making sure we deliver that highly interactive experience but it's the scale of the number of users and customers that they have, and the expectation that your application's always going to work. >> Speaking of applications, I mean, it seems like that's where the innovation is going to come from. We saw yesterday, GSMA announced, I think eight APIs telco APIs, you know, we were talking on theCUBE, one of the analysts was like, "Eight, that's nothing," you know, "What do these guys know about developers?" But you know, as Daniel Royston said, "Eight's better than zero." >> Right? >> So okay, so we're starting there, but the point being, it's all about the apps, that's where the innovation's going to come from- >> That's right. >> So what are you seeing there, in terms of building on top of the data app? >> Right, well you have to provide, I mean, have to provide the APIs and the access because it is really, the rubber meets the road, with the developers and giving them the ability to create those really rich applications where they want and create the experiences and innovate and change the way that they're giving those experiences. >> Yeah, so what's your relationship with developers at Couchbase? >> John: Yeah. >> I mean, talk about that a little bit- >> Yeah, yeah, so we have a great relationship with developers, something we've been investing more and more in, in terms of things like developer relations teams and community, Couchbase started in open source, continue to be based on open source projects and of course, those are very developer centric. So we provide all the consistent APIs for developers to create those applications, whether it's something on Couchbase Lite, which is our kind of edge-based database, or how they can sync that data back and we actually automate a lot of that syncing which is a very difficult developer task which lends them to one of the developer- >> What I'm trying to figure out is, what's the telco developer look like? Is that a developer that comes from the enterprise and somebody comes from the blockchain world, or AI or, you know, there really doesn't seem to be a lot of developer talk here, but there's a huge opportunity. >> Yeah, yeah. >> And, you know, I feel like, the telcos kind of remind me of, you know, a traditional legacy company trying to get into the developer world, you know, even Oracle, okay, they bought Sun, they got Java, so I guess they have developers, but you know, IBM for years tried with Bluemix, they had to end up buying Red Hat, really, and that gave them the developer community. >> Yep. >> EMC used to have a thing called EMC Code, which was a, you know, good effort, but eh. And then, you know, VMware always trying to do that, but, so as you move up the stack obviously, you have greater developer affinity. Where do you think the telco developer's going to come from? How's that going to evolve? >> Yeah, it's interesting, and I think they're... To kind of get to your first question, I think they're fairly traditional enterprise developers and when we break that down, we look at it in terms of what the developer persona is, are they a front-end developer? Like they're writing that front-end app, they don't care so much about the infrastructure behind or are they a full stack developer and they're really involved in the entire application development lifecycle? Or are they living at the backend and they're really wanting to just focus in on that data layer? So we lend towards all of those different personas and we think about them in terms of the APIs that we create, so that's really what the developers are for telcos is, there's a combination of those front-end and full stack developers and so for them to continue to innovate they need to appeal to those developers and that's technology, like Couchbase, is what helps them do that. >> Yeah and you think about the Apples, you know, the app store model or Apple sort of says, "Okay, here's a developer kit, go create." >> John: Yeah. >> "And then if it's successful, you're going to be successful and we're going to take a vig," okay, good model. >> John: Yeah. >> I think I'm hearing, and maybe I misunderstood this, but I think it was the CEO or chairman of Ericsson on the day one keynotes, was saying, "We are going to monetize the, essentially the telemetry data, you know, through APIs, we're going to charge for that," you know, maybe that's not the best approach, I don't know, I think there's got to be some innovation on top. >> John: Yeah. >> Now maybe some of these greenfield telcos are going to do like, you take like a dish networks, what they're doing, they're really trying to drive development layers. So I think it's like this wild west open, you know, community that's got to be formed and right now it's very unclear to me, do you have any insights there? >> I think it is more, like you said, Wild West, I think there's no emerging standard per se for across those different company types and sort of different pieces of the industry. So consequently, it does need to form some more standards in order to really help it grow and I think you're right, you have to have the right APIs and the right access in order to properly monetize, you have to attract those developers or you're not going to be able to monetize properly. >> Do you think that if, in thinking about your business and you know, you've always sold to telcos, but now it's like there's this transformation going on in telcos, will that become an increasingly larger piece of your business or maybe even a more important piece of your business? Or it's kind of be steady state because it's such a slow moving industry? >> No, it is a big and increasing piece of our business, I think telcos like other enterprises, want to continue to innovate and so they look to, you know, technologies like, Couchbase document database that allows them to have more flexibility and deliver the speed that they need to deliver those kinds of applications. So we see a lot of migration off of traditional legacy infrastructure in order to build that new age interface and new age experience that they want to deliver. >> A lot of buzz in Silicon Valley about open AI and Chat GPT- >> Yeah. >> You know, what's your take on all that? >> Yeah, we're looking at it, I think it's exciting technology, I think there's a lot of applications that are kind of, a little, sort of innovate traditional interfaces, so for example, you can train Chat GPT to create code, sample code for Couchbase, right? You can go and get it to give you that sample app which gets you a headstart or you can actually get it to do a better job of, you know, sorting through your documentation, like Chat GPT can do a better job of helping you get access. So it improves the experience overall for developers, so we're excited about, you know, what the prospect of that is. >> So you're playing around with it, like everybody is- >> Yeah. >> And potentially- >> Looking at use cases- >> Ways tO integrate, yeah. >> Hundred percent. >> So are we. John, thanks for coming on theCUBE. Always great to see you, my friend. >> Great, thanks very much. >> All right, you're welcome. All right, keep it right there, theCUBE will be back live from Barcelona at the theater. SiliconANGLE's continuous coverage of MWC23. Go to siliconangle.com for all the news, theCUBE.net is where all the videos are, keep it right there. (cheerful upbeat music outro)

(soft music) >> Announcer: TheCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies. Creating technologies that drive human progress. (upbeat music) >> Welcome back to Spain, everybody. We're here at the Fira in MWC23. Is just an amazing day. This place is packed. They said 80,000 people. I think it might even be a few more walk-ins. I'm Dave Vellante, Lisa Martin is here, David Nicholson. But right now we have the Analyst Hot Takes with three friends of theCUBE. Chris Lewis is back again with me in the co-host seat. Zeus Kerravala, analyst extraordinaire. Great to see you, Z. and Sarbjeet SJ Johal. Good to see you again, theCUBE contributor. And that's my new name for him. He says that is his nickname. Guys, thanks for coming back on. We got the all male panel, sorry, but it is what it is. So Z, is this the first time you've been on it at MWC. Take aways from the show, Hot Takes. What are you seeing? Same wine, new bottle? >> In a lot of ways, yeah. I mean, I was talking to somebody this earlier that if you had come from like MWC five years ago to this year, a lot of the themes are the same. Telco transformation, cloud. I mean, 5G is a little new. Sustainability is certainly a newer theme here. But I think it highlights just the difficulty I think the telcos have in making this transformation. And I think, in some ways, I've been unfair to them in some degree 'cause I've picked on them in the past for not moving fast enough. These are, you know, I think these kind of big transformations almost take like a perfect storm of things that come together to happen, right? And so, in the past, we had technologies that maybe might have lowered opex, but they're hard to deploy. They're vertically integrated. We didn't have the software stacks. But it appears today that between the cloudification of, you know, going to cloud native, the software stacks, the APIs, the ecosystems, I think we're actually in a position to see this industry finally move forward. >> Yeah, and Chris, I mean, you have served this industry for a long time. And you know, when you, when you do that, you get briefed as an analyst, you actually realize, wow, there's a lot of really smart people here, and they're actually, they have challenges, they're working through it. So Zeus was saying he's been tough on the industry. You know, what do you think about how the telcos have evolved in the last five years? >> I think they've changed enormously. I think the problem we have is we're always looking for the great change, the big step change, and there is no big step change in a way. What telcos deliver to us as individuals, businesses, society, the connectivity piece, that's changed. We get better and better and more reliable connectivity. We're shunting a load more capacity through. What I think has really changed is their attitude to their suppliers, their attitude to their partners, and their attitude to the ecosystem in which they play. Understanding that connectivity is not the end game. Connectivity is part of the emerging end game where it will include storage, compute, connect, and analytics and everything else. So I think the realization that they are not playing their own game anymore, it's a much more open game. And some things they will continue to do, some things they'll stop doing. We've seen them withdraw from moving into adjacent markets as much as we used to see. So a lot of them in the past went off to try and do movies, media, and a lot went way way into business IT stuff. They've mainly pulled back from that, and they're focusing on, and let's face it, it's not just a 5G show. The fixed environment is unbelievably important. We saw that during the pandemic. Having that fixed broadband connection using wifi, combining with cellular. We love it. But the problem as an industry is that the users often don't even know the connectivity's there. They only know when it doesn't work, right? >> If it's not media and it's not business services, what is it? >> Well, in my view, it will be enabling third parties to deliver the services that will include media, that will include business services. So embedding the connectivity all the way into the application that gets delivered or embedding it so the quality mechanism deliver the gaming much more accurately or, I'm not a gamer, so I can't comment on that. But no, the video quality if you want to have a high quality video will come through better. >> And those cohorts will pay for that value? >> Somebody will pay somewhere along the line. >> Seems fuzzy to me. >> Me too. >> I do think it's use case dependent. Like you look at all the work Verizon did at the Super Bowl this year, that's a perfect case where they could have upsold. >> Explain that. I'm not familiar with it. >> So Verizon provided all the 5G in the Super Bowl. They provided a lot of, they provided private connectivity for the coaches to talk to the sidelines. And that's a mission critical application, right? In the NFL, if one side can't talk, the other side gets shut down. You can't communicate with the quarterback or the coaches. There's a lot of risk at that. So, but you know, there's a case there, though, I think where they could have even made that fan facing. Right? And if you're paying 2000 bucks to go to a game, would you pay 50 bucks more to have a higher tier of bandwidth so you can post things on social? People that go there, they want people to know they were there. >> Every football game you go to, you can't use your cell. >> Analyst: Yeah, I know, right? >> All right, let's talk about developers because we saw the eight APIs come out. I think ISVs are going to be a big part of this. But it's like Dee Arthur said. Hey, eight's better than zero, I guess. Okay, so, but so the innovation is going to come from ISVs and developers, but what are your hot takes from this show and now day two, we're a day and a half in, almost two days in. >> Yeah, yeah. There's a thing that we have talked, I mentioned many times is skills gravity, right? Skills have gravity, and also, to outcompete, you have to also educate. That's another theme actually of my talks is, or my research is that to puts your technology out there to the practitioners, you have to educate them. And that's the only way to democratize your technology. What telcos have been doing is they have been stuck to the proprietary software and proprietary hardware for too long, from Nokia's of the world and other vendors like that. So now with the open sourcing of some of the components and a few others, right? And they're open source space and antenna, you know? Antennas are becoming software now. So with the invent of these things, which is open source, it helps us democratize that to the other sort of skirts of the practitioners, if you will. And that will bring in more applications first into the IOT space, and then maybe into the core sort of California, if you will. >> So what does a telco developer look like? I mean, all the blockchain developers and crypto developers are moving into generative AI, right? So maybe those worlds come together. >> You'd like to think though that the developers would understand everything's network centric today. So you'd like to think they'd understand that how the network responds, you know, you'd take a simple app like Zoom or something. If it notices the bandwidth changes, it should knock down the resolution. If it goes up it, then you can add different features and things and you can make apps a lot smarter that way. >> Well, G2 was saying today that they did a deal with Mercedes, you know this probably better than I do, where they're going to embed WebEx in the car. And if you're driving, it'll shut off the camera. >> Of course. >> I'm like, okay. >> I'll give you a better example though. >> But that's my point. Like, isn't there more that we can do? >> You noticed down on the SKT stand the little helicopter. That's a vertical lift helicopter. So it's an electric vertical lift helicopter. Just think of that for a second. And then think of the connectivity to control that, to securely control that. And then I was recently at an event with Zeus actually where we saw an air traffic control system where there was no people manning the tower. It was managed by someone remotely with all the cameras around them. So managing all of those different elements, we call it IOT, but actually it's way more than what we thought of as IOT. All those components connecting, communicating securely and safely. 'Cause I don't want that helicopter to come down on my head, do you? (men laugh) >> Especially if you're in there. (men laugh) >> Okay, so you mentioned sustainability. Everybody's talking about power. I don't know if you guys have a lot of experience around TCO, but I'm trying to get to, well, is this just because energy costs are so high, and then when the energy becomes cheap again, nobody's going to pay any attention to it? Or is this the real deal? >> So one of the issues around the, if we want to experience all that connectivity locally or that helicopter wants to have that connectivity, we have to ultimately build denser, more reliable networks. So there's a CapEx, we're going to put more base stations in place. We need more fiber in the ground to support them. Therefore, the energy consumption will go up. So we need to be more efficient in the use of energy. Simple as that. >> How much of the operating expense is energy? Like what percent of it? Is it 10%? Is it 20%? Is it, does anybody know? >> It depends who you ask and it depends on the- >> I can't get an answer to that. I mean, in the enterprise- >> Analyst: The data centers? >> Yeah, the data centers. >> We have the numbers. I think 10 to 15%. >> It's 10 to 12%, something like that. Is it much higher? >> I've got feeling it's 30%. >> Okay, so if it's 30%, that's pretty good. >> I do think we have to get better at understanding how to measure too. You know, like I was talking with John Davidson at Sysco about this that every rev of silicon they come out with uses more power, but it's a lot more dense. So at the surface, you go, well, that's using a lot more power. But you can consolidate 10 switches down to two switches. >> Well, Intel was on early and talking about how they can intelligently control the cores. >> But it's based off workload, right? That's the thing. So what are you running over it? You know, and so, I don't think our industry measures that very well. I think we look at things kind of boxed by box versus look at total consumption. >> Well, somebody else in theCUBE was saying they go full throttle. That the networks just say just full throttle everything. And that obviously has to change from the power consumption standpoint. >> Obviously sustainability and sensory or sensors from IOT side, they go hand in hand. Just simple examples like, you know, lights in the restrooms, like in public areas. Somebody goes in there and just only then turns. The same concept is being applied to servers and compute and storage and every aspects and to networks as well. >> Cell tower. >> Yeah. >> Cut 'em off, right? >> Like the serverless telco? (crosstalk) >> Cell towers. >> Well, no, I'm saying, right, but like serverless, you're not paying for the compute when you're not using it, you know? >> It is serverless from the economics point of view. Yes, it's like that, you know? It goes to the lowest level almost like sleep on our laptops, sleep level when you need more power, more compute. >> I mean, some of that stuff's been in networking equipment for a long time, it just never really got turned on. >> I want to ask you about private networks. You wrote a piece, Athenet was acquired by HPE right after Dell announced a relationship with Athenet, which was kind of, that was kind of funny. And so a good move, good judo move by by HP. I asked Dell about it, and they said, look, we're open. They said the right things. We'll see, but I think it's up to HP. >> Well, and the network inside Dell is. >> Yeah, okay, so. Okay, cool. So, but you said something in that article you wrote on Silicon Angle that a lot of people feel like P5G is going to basically replace wireless or cannibalize wireless. You said you didn't agree with that. Explain why? >> Analyst: Wifi. >> Wifi, sorry, I said wireless. >> No, that's, I mean that's ridiculous. Pat Gelsinger said that in his last VMware, which I thought was completely irresponsible. >> That it was going to cannibalize? >> Cannibalize wifi globally is what he said, right? Now he had Verizon on stage with him, so. >> Analyst: Wifi's too inexpensive and flexible. >> Wifi's cheap- >> Analyst: It's going to embed really well. Embedded in that. >> It's reached near ubiquity. It's unlicensed. So a lot of businesses don't want to manage their own spectrum, right? And it's great for this, right? >> Analyst: It does the job. >> For casual connectivity. >> Not today. >> Well, it does for the most part. Right now- >> For the most part. But never at these events. >> If it's engineered correctly, it will. Right? Where you need private 5G is when reliability is an absolute must. So, Chris, you and I visited the Port of Rotterdam, right? So they're putting 5G, private 5G there, but there's metal containers everywhere, right? And that's going to disrupt it. And so there are certain use cases where it makes sense. >> I've been in your basement, and you got some pretty intense equipment in there. You have private 5G in there. >> But for carpeted offices, it does not make sense to bring private. The economics don't make any sense. And you know, it runs hot. >> So where's it going to be used? Give us some examples of where we should be looking for. >> The early ones are obviously in mining, and you say in ports, in airports. It broadens cities because you've got so many moving parts in there, and always think about it, very expensive moving parts. The cranes in the port are normally expensive piece of kits. You're moving that, all that logistics around. So managing that over a distance where the wifi won't work over the distance. And in mining, we're going to see enormous expensive trucks moving around trying to- >> I think a great new use case though, so the Cleveland Browns actually the first NFL team to use it for facial recognition to enter the stadium. So instead of having to even pull your phone out, it says, hey Dave Vellante. You've got four tickets, can we check you all in? And you just walk through. You could apply that to airports. You could do put that in a hotel. You could walk up and check in. >> Analyst: Retail. >> Yeah, retail. And so I think video, realtime video analytics, I think it's a perfect use case for that. >> But you don't need 5G to do that. You could do that through another mechanism, couldn't you? >> You could do wire depending on how mobile you want to do it. Like in a stadium, you're pulling those things in and out all the time. You're moving 'em around and things, so. >> Yeah, but you're coming in at a static point. >> I'll take the contrary view here. >> See, we can't even agree on that. (men laugh) >> Yeah, I love it. Let's go. >> I believe the reliability of connection is very important, right? And the moving parts. What are the moving parts in wifi? We have the NIC card, you know, the wifi card in these suckers, right? In a machine, you know? They're bigger in size, and the radios for 5G are smaller in size. So neutralization is important part of the whole sort of progress to future, right? >> I think 5G costs as well. Yes, cost as well. But cost, we know that it goes down with time, right? We're already talking about 60, and the 5G stuff will be good. >> Actually, sorry, so one of the big boom areas at the moment is 4G LTE because the component price has come down so much, so it is affordable, you can afford to bring it all together. People don't, because we're still on 5G, if 5G standalone everywhere, you're not going to get a consistent service. So those components are unbelievably important. The skillsets of the people doing integration to bring them all together, unbelievably important. And the business case within the business. So I was talking to one of the heads of one of the big retail outlets in the UK, and I said, when are you going to do 5G in the stores? He said, well, why would I tear out all the wifi? I've got perfectly functioning wifi. >> Yeah, that's true. It's already there. But I think the technology which disappears in front of you, that's the best technology. Like you don't worry about it. You don't think it's there. Wifi, we think we think about that like it's there. >> And I do think wifi 5G switching's got to get easier too. Like for most users, you don't know which is better. You don't even know how to test it. And to your point, it does need to be invisible where the user doesn't need to think about it, right? >> Invisible. See, we came back to invisible. We talked about that yesterday. Telecom should be invisible. >> And it should be, you know? You don't want to be thinking about telecom, but at the same time, telecoms want to be more visible. They want to be visible like Netflix, don't they? I still don't see the path. It's fuzzy to me the path of how they're not going to repeat what happened with the over the top providers if they're invisible. >> Well, if you think about what telcos delivers to consumers, to businesses, then extending that connectivity into your home to help you support secure and extend your connection into Zeus's basement, whatever it is. Obviously that's- >> His awesome setup down there. >> And then in the business environment, there's a big change going on from the old NPLS networks, the old rigid structures of networks to SD1 where the control point is moved outside, which can be under control of the telco, could be under the control of a third party integrator. So there's a lot changing. I think we obsess about the relative role of the telco. The demand is phenomenal for connectivity. So address that, fulfill that. And if they do that, then they'll start to build trust in other areas. >> But don't you think they're going to address that and fulfill that? I mean, they're good at it. That's their wheelhouse. >> And it's a 1.6 trillion market, right? So it's not to be sniffed at. That's fixed on mobile together, obviously. But no, it's a big market. And do we keep changing? As long as the service is good, we don't move away from it. >> So back to the APIs, the eight APIs, right? >> I mean- >> Eight APIs is a joke actually almost. I think they released it too early. The release release on the main stage, you know? Like, what? What is this, right? But of course they will grow into hundreds and thousands of APIs. But they have to spend a lot of time and effort in that sort of context. >> I'd actually like to see the GSMA work with like AWS and Microsoft and VMware and software companies and create some standardization across their APIs. >> Yeah. >> I spoke to them yes- >> We're trying to reinvent them. >> Is that not what they're doing? >> No, they said we are not in the business of a defining standards. And they used a different term, not standard. I mean, seriously. I was like, are you kidding me? >> Let's face it, there aren't just eight APIs out there. There's so many of them. The TM forum's been defining when it's open data architecture. You know, the telcos themselves are defining them. The standards we talked about too earlier with Danielle. There's a lot of APIs out there, but the consistency of APIs, so we can bring them together, to bring all the different services together that will support us in our different lives is really important. I think telcos will do it, it's in their interest to do it. >> All right, guys, we got to wrap. Let's go around the horn here, starting with Chris, Zeus, and then Sarbjeet, just bring us home. Number one hot take from Mobile World Congress MWC23 day two. >> My favorite hot take is the willingness of all the participants who have been traditional telco players who looked inwardly at the industry looking outside for help for partnerships, and to build an ecosystem, a more open ecosystem, which will address our requirements. >> Zeus? >> Yeah, I was going to talk about ecosystem. I think for the first time ever, when I've met with the telcos here, I think they're actually, I don't think they know how to get there yet, but they're at least aware of the fact that they need to understand how to build a big ecosystem around them. So if you think back like 50 years ago, IBM and compute was the center of everything in your company, and then the ecosystem surrounded it. I think today with digital transformation being network centric, the telcos actually have the opportunity to be that center of excellence, and then build an ecosystem around them. I think the SIs are actually in a really interesting place to help them do that 'cause they understand everything top to bottom that I, you know, pre pandemic, I'm not sure the telcos were really understand. I think they understand it today, I'm just not sure they know how to get there. . >> Sarbjeet? >> I've seen the lot of RN demos and testing companies and I'm amazed by it. Everything is turning into software, almost everything. The parts which are not turned into software. I mean every, they will soon. But everybody says that we need the hardware to run something, right? But that hardware, in my view, is getting miniaturized, and it's becoming smaller and smaller. The antennas are becoming smaller. The equipment is getting smaller. That means the cost on the physicality of the assets is going down. But the cost on the software side will go up for telcos in future. And telco is a messy business. Not everybody can do it. So only few will survive, I believe. So that's what- >> Software defined telco. So I'm on a mission. I'm looking for the monetization path. And what I haven't seen yet is, you know, you want to follow the money, follow the data, I say. So next two days, I'm going to be looking for that data play, that potential, the way in which this industry is going to break down the data silos I think there's potential goldmine there, but I haven't figured out yet. >> That's a subject for another day. >> Guys, thanks so much for coming on. You guys are extraordinary partners of theCUBE friends, and great analysts and congratulations and thank you for all you do. Really appreciate it. >> Analyst: Thank you. >> Thanks a lot. >> All right, this is a wrap on day two MWC 23. Go to siliconangle.com for all the news. Where Rob Hope and team are just covering all the news. John Furrier is in the Palo Alto studio. We're rocking all that news, taking all that news and putting it on video. Go to theCUBE.net, you'll see everything on demand. Thanks for watching. This is a wrap on day two. We'll see you tomorrow. (soft music)

>> Narrator: theCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies, creating technologies that drive human progress. (upbeat music) >> Welcome back to the Fira in Barcelona. This is Dave Vellante with David Nicholson. Lisa Martin is also here. This is day two of our coverage of MWC 23 on theCUBE. We're super excited. We're in between hall four and five. Stop by if you're here. Dennis Hoffman is here. He's the senior vice president and general manager of the Telecom systems business at Dell Technologies, and he's joined by Yousef Khalidi, who's the corporate vice president of Azure for Operators from Microsoft. Gents, Welcome. >> Thanks, Dave. >> Thank you. >> So we saw Satya in the keynote. He wired in. We saw T.K. came in. No AWS. I don't know. They're maybe not part of the show, but maybe next year they'll figure it out. >> Indeed, indeed. >> Lots of stuff happened in the Telecom, but the Azure operator distributed service is the big news, you guys got here. What's that all about? >> Oh, first of all, we changed the name. >> Oh, you did? >> You did? >> Oh, yeah. We have a real name now. It's called the Azure Operator Nexus. >> Oh, I like Nexus better than that. >> David: That's much better, much better. >> Dave: The engineers named it first time around. >> I wish, long story, but thank you for our marketing team. But seriously, not only did we rename the platform, we expanded the platform. >> Dave: Yeah. >> So it now covers the whole spectrum from the far-edge to the public cloud as well, including the near-edge as well. So essentially, it's a hybrid platform that can also run network functions. So all these operators around you, they now have a platform which combines cloud technologies with the choice where they want to run, optimized for the network. >> Okay and so, you know, we've talked about the disaggregation of the network and how you're bringing kind of engineered systems to the table. We've seen this movie before, but Dennis, there are differences, right? I mean, you didn't really have engineered systems in the 90s. You didn't have those integration points. You really didn't have the public cloud, you didn't have AI. >> Right. >> So you have all those new powers that you can tap, so give us the update from your perspective, having now spent a day and a half here. What's the vibe, what's the buzz, and what's your take on everything? >> Yeah, I think to build on what Yousef said, there's a lot going on with people still trying to figure out exactly how to architect the Telecom network of the future. They know it's got to have a lot to do with cloud. It does have some pretty significant differences, one of those being, there's definitely got to be a hybrid component because there are pieces of the Telecom network that even when modernized will not end up centralized, right? They're going to be highly distributed. I would say though, you know, we took away two things, yesterday, from all the meetings. One, people are done, I think the network operators are done, questioning technology readiness. They're now beginning to wrestle with operationalization of it all, right? So it's like, okay, it's here. I can in fact build a modern network in a very cloud native way, but I've got to figure out how to do that all. And another big part of it is the ecosystem and certainly the partnership long standing between Dell and Microsoft which we're extending into this space is part of that, making it easier on people to actually acquire, deploy, and importantly, support these new technologies. >> So a lot of the traditional carriers, like you said, they're sort of beyond the technology readiness. Jose Maria Alvarez in the keynote said there are three pillars to the future Telecom network. He said low latency, programmable networks, and then cloud and edge, kind of threw that in. You agree with that, Yousef? (Dave and Yousef speaking altogether) >> I mean, we've been for years talking about the cloud and edge. >> Yeah. >> Satya for years had the same graphic. We still have it. Today, we have expanded the graphic a bit to include the network as one, because you can have a cloud without connectivity as well but this is very, very, very, very much true. >> And so the question then, Dennis, is okay, you've got disruptors, we had Dish on yesterday. >> Oh, did you? Good. >> Yeah, yeah, and they're talking about what they're doing with, you know, ORAN and all the applications, really taking account of it. What I see is a developer friendly, you know, environment. You got the carriers talking about how they're going to charge developers for APIs. I think they've published eight APIs which is nowhere near enough. So you've got that sort of, you know, inertia and yet, you have the disruptors that are going to potentially be a catalyst to, you know, cross the chasm, if you will. So, you know, put on your strategy hat. >> Yeah. >> Dave: How do you see that playing out? >> Well, they're trying to tap into three things, the disruptors. You know, I think the thesis is, "If I get to a truly cloud native, communications network first, I ought to have greater agility so that I can launch more services and create more revenue streams. I ought to be lower cost in terms of both acquisition cost and operating cost, right, and I ought to be able to create scale between my IT organization, everything I know how to do there and my Telecom network." You know, classic, right? Better, faster, cheaper if I embrace cloud early on. And people like Dish, you know, they have a clean sheet of paper with which to do that. So innovation and rate of innovation is huge for them. >> So what would you do? We put your Clay Christensen hat on, now. What if you were at a traditional Telco who's like, complaining about- >> You're going to get me in trouble. >> Dave: Come on, come on. >> Don't do it. >> Dave: Help him out. Help him out, help him out. So if, you know, they're complaining about CapEx, they're highly regulated, right, they want net neutrality but they want to be able to sort of dial up the cost of those using the network. So what would you do? Would you try to disrupt yourself? Would you create a skunkworks? Would you kind of spin off a disruptor? That's a real dilemma for those guys. >> Well for mobile network operators, the beauty of 5G is it's the first cloud native cellular standard. So I don't know if anybody's throwing these terms around, but 5G SA is standalone, right? >> Dave: Yeah, yeah. >> So a lot of 'em, it's not a skunkworks. They're just literally saying, "I've got to have a 5G network." And some of 'em are deciding, "I'm going to stand it up all by itself." Now, that's duplicative expense in a lot of ways, but it creates isolation from the two networks. Others are saying, "No, it's got to be NSA. I've got to be able to combine 4G and 5G." And then you're into the brownfield thing. >> That's the hybrid. >> Not hybrid as in cloud, but hybrid as in, you know. >> Yeah, yeah. >> It's a converge network. >> Dave: Yeah, yeah. >> So, you know, I would say for a lot of them, they're adopting, probably rightly so, a wait and see attitude. One thing we haven't talked about and you got to get on the table, their high order bit is resilience. >> Dave: Yeah, totally. >> David: Yeah. >> Right? Can't go down. It's national, secure infrastructure, first responder. >> Indeed. >> Anytime you ask them to embrace any new technology, the first thing that they have to work through in their minds is, you know, "Is the juice worth the squeeze? Like, can I handle the risk?" >> But you're saying they're not questioning the technology. Aren't they questioning ORAN in terms of the quality of service, or are they beyond that? >> Dennis: They're questioning the timing, not the inevitability. >> Okay, so they agree that ORAN is going to be open over time. >> At some point, RAN will be cloud native, whether it's ORAN the spec, open RAN the concept, (Yousef speaking indistinctly) >> Yeah. >> Virtual RAN. But yeah, I mean I think it seems pretty evident at this point that the mainframe will give way to open systems once again. >> Dave: Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> ERAN, ecosystem RAN. >> Any RAN. (Dave laughing) >> You don't have to start with the ORAN where they're inside the house. So as you probably know, our partner AT&T started with the core. >> Dennis: They almost all have. >> And they've been on the virtualization path since 2014 and 15. And what we are working with them on is the hybrid cloud model to expand all the way, if you will, as I mentioned to the far-edge or the public cloud. So there's a way to be in the brownfield environment, yet jump on the new bandwagon of technology without necessarily taking too much risk, because you're quite right. I mean, resiliency, security, service assurance, I mean, for example, AT&T runs the first responder network for the US on their network, on our platform, and I'm personally very familiar of how high the bar is. So it's doable, but you need to go in stages, of course. >> And they've got to do that integration. >> Yes. >> They do. >> And Yousef made a great point. Like, out of the top 30 largest Telcos by CapEx outside of China, three quarters of them have virtualized their core. So the cloudification, if you will, software definition run on industry standard hardware, embraced cloud native principles, containerized apps, that's happened in the core. It's well accepted. Now it's just a ripple-down through the network which will happen as and when things are faster, better, cheaper. >> Right. >> So as implemented, what does this look like? Is it essentially what we used to loosely refer to as Azure stacked software, running with Dell optimized Telecom infrastructure together, sometimes within a BBU, out in a hybrid cloud model communicating back to Azure locations in some cases? Is that what we're looking at? >> Approximately. So you start with the near-edge, okay? So the near-edge lives in the operator's data centers, edges, whatever the case may be, built out of off the shelf hardware. Dell is our great partner there but in principle, it could be different mix and match. So once you have that true near-edge, then you can think of, "Okay, how can I make sure this environment is as uniform, same APIs, same everything, regardless what the physical location is?" And this is key, key for the network function providers and the NEPs because they need to be able to port once, run everywhere, and it's key for the operator to reduce their costs. You want to teach your workforce, your operations folks, if you will, how to manage this system one time, to automation and so forth. So, and that is actually an expansion of the Azure capabilities that people are familiar with in a public cloud, projected into different locations. And we have technology called Arc which basically models everything. >> Yeah, yeah. >> So if you have trained your IT side, you are halfway there, how to manage your new network. Even though of course the network is carrier graded, there's different gear. So yes, what you said, a lot of it is true but the actual components, whatever they might be running, are carrier grade, highly optimized, the next images and our solution is not a DIY solution, okay? I know you cater to a wide spectrum here but for us, we don't believe in the TCO. The proper TCO can be achieved by just putting stuff by yourself. We just published a report with Analysys Mason that shows that our approach will save 36 percent of the cost compared to a DIY approach. >> Dave: What percent? >> 36 percent. >> Dave: Of the cost? >> Of, compared to DIY, which is already cheaper than classical models. >> And there's a long history of fairly failed DIY, right, >> Yeah. >> That preceded this. As in the early days of public cloud, the network operators wrestled with, "Do I have to become one to survive?" >> Dave: Yeah. Right. >> So they all ended up having cloud projects and by and large, they've all dematerialized in favor of this. >> Yeah, and it's hard for them to really invest at scale. Let me give you an example. So, your biggest tier one operator, without naming anybody, okay, how many developers do they have that can build and maintain an OS image, or can keep track of container technology, or build monitoring at scale? In our company, we have literally thousands of developers doing it already for the cloud and all we're doing for the operator segment is customizing it and focusing it at the carrier grade aspects of it. But so, I don't have half a dozen exterior experts. I literally have a building of developers who can do that and I'm being literal, here. So it's a scale thing. Once you have a product that you can give to multiple people, everybody benefits. >> Dave: Yeah, and the carriers are largely, they're equipment engineers in a large setting. >> Oh, they have a tough job. I always have total respect what they do. >> Oh totally, and a lot of the work happens, you know, kind of underground and here they are. >> They are network operators. >> They don't touch. >> It's their business. >> Right, absolutely, and they're good at it. They're really good at it. That's right. You know, you think about it, we love to, you know, poke fun at the big carriers, but think about what happened during the pandemic. When they had us shift everything to remote work, >> Dennis: Yes. >> Landline traffic went through the roof. You didn't even notice. >> Yep. That's very true. >> I mean, that's the example. >> That's very true. >> However, in the future where there's innovation and it's going to be driven by developers, right, that's where the open ecosystem comes in. >> Yousef: Indeed. >> And that's the hard transition for a lot of these folks because the developers are going to win that with new workloads, new applications that we can't even think of. >> Dennis: Right. And a lot of it is because if you look at it, there's the fundamental back strategy hat back on, fundamental dynamics of the industry, forced investment, flat revenues. >> Dave: Yeah. Right. >> Very true. >> Right? Every few years, a new G comes out. "Man, I got to retool this massive thing and where I can't do towers, I'm dropping fiber or vice a versa." And meanwhile, most diversification efforts into media have failed. They've had to unwind them and resell them. There's a lot of debt in the industry. >> Yousef: Yeah. >> Dennis: And so, they're looking for that next big, adjacent revenue stream and increasingly deciding, "If I don't modernize my network, I can't get it." >> Can't do it. >> Right, and again, what I heard from some of the carriers in the keynote was, "We're going to charge for API access 'cause we have data in the network." Okay, but I feel like there's a lot more innovation beyond that that's going to come from the disruptors. >> Dennis: Oh yeah. >> Yousef: Yes. >> You know, that's going to blow that away, right? And then that may not be the right model. We'll see, you know? I mean, what would Microsoft do? They would say, "Here, here's a platform. Go develop." >> No, I'll tell you. We are actually working with CAMARA and GSMA on the whole API layer. We actually announced a service as well as (indistinct). >> Dave: Yeah, yeah, right. >> And the key there, frankly, in my opinion, are not the disruptors as in operators. It's the ISV community. You want to get developers that can write to a global set of APIs, not per Telco APIs, such that they can do the innovation. I mean, this is what we've seen in other industries, >> Absolutely. >> That I critically can think of. >> This is the way they get a slice of that pie, right? The recent history of this industry is one where 4G LTE begot the smartphone and app store era, a bevy of consumer services, and almost every single profit stream went somewhere other than the operator, right? >> Yousef: Someone else. So they're looking at this saying, "Okay, 5G is the enterprise G and there's going to be a bevy of applications that are business service related, based on 5G capability and I can't let the OTT, over the top, thing happen again." >> Right. >> They'll say that. "We cannot let this happen." >> "We can't let this happen again." >> Okay, but how do they, >> Yeah, how do they make that not happen? >> Not let it happen again? >> Eight APIs, Dave. The answer is eight APIs. No, I mean, it's this approach. They need to make it easy to work with people like Yousef and more importantly, the developer community that people like Yousef and his company have found a way to harness. And by the way, they need to be part of that developer community themselves. >> And they're not, today. They're not speaking that developer language. >> Right. >> It's hard. You know, hey. >> Dennis: Hey, what's the fastest way to sell an enterprise, a business service? Resell Azure, Teams, something, right? But that's a resale. >> Yeah, that's a resale thing. >> See, >> That's not their service. >> They also need to free their resources from all the plumbing they do and leave it to us. We are plumbers, okay? >> Dennis: We are proud plumbers. >> We are proud plumbers. I'm a plumber. I keep telling people this thing. We had the same discussion with banks and enterprises 10 years ago, by the way. Don't do the plumbing. Go add value on the top. Retool your workforce to do applications and work with ISVs to the verticals, as opposed to either reselling, which many do, or do the plumbing. You'd be surprised. Traditionally, many operators do around, "I want to plumb this thing to get this small interrupt per second." Like, who cares? >> Well, 'cause they made money on connectivity. >> Yes. >> And we've seen this before. >> And in a world without telephone poles and your cables- >> Hey, if what you have is a hammer, everything's a nail, right? And we sell connectivity services and that's what we know how to do, and that both build and sell. And if that's no longer driving a revenue stream sufficient to cover this forced investment march, not to mention Huawei rip and government initiatives to pull infrastructure out and accelerate investment, they got to find new ways. >> I mean, the regulations have been tough, right? They don't go forward and ask for permission. They really can't, right? They have to be much more careful. >> Dennis: It is tough. >> So, we don't mean to sound like it's easy for these guys. >> Dennis: No, it's not. >> But it does require a new mindset, new skillsets, and I think some of 'em are going to figure it out and then pff, the wave, and you guys are going to be riding that wave. >> We're going to try. >> Definitely. Definitely. >> As a veteran of working with both Dell and Microsoft, specifically Azure on things, I am struck by how you're very well positioned in this with Microsoft in particular. Because of Azure's history, coming out of the on-premises world that Microsoft knows so well, there's a natural affinity to the hybrid nature of Telecom. We talk about edge, we talk about hybrid, this is it, absolutely the center of it. So it seems like a- >> Yousef: Indeed. Actually, if you look at the history of Azure, from day one, and I was there from day one, we always spoke of the hybrid model. >> Yeah. >> The third point, we came from the on-premises world. >> David: Right. >> And don't get me wrong, I want people to use the public cloud, but I also know due to physics, regulation, geopolitical boundaries, there's something called on-prem, something called an edge here. I want to add something else. Remember our deal on how we are partner-centric? We're applying the same playbook, here. So, you know, for every dollar we make, so many of it's been done by the ecosystem. Same applies here. So we have announced partnerships with Ericson, Nokia, (indistinct), all the names, and of course with Dell and many others. The ecosystem has to come together and customers must retain their optionality to drum up whatever they are on. So it's the same playbook, with this. >> And enterprise technology companies are, actually, really good at, you know, decoding the customer, figuring out specific requirements, making some mistakes the first time through and then eventually getting it right. And as these trends unfold, you know, you're in a good position, I think, as are others and it's an exciting time for enterprise tech in this industry, you know? >> It really is. >> Indeed. >> Dave: Guys, thanks so much for coming on. >> Thank you. >> Dave: It's great to see you. Have a great rest of the show. >> Thank you. >> Thanks, Dave. Thank you, Dave. >> All right, keep it right there. John Furrier is live in our studio. He's breaking down all the news. Go to siliconangle.com to go to theCUBE.net. Dave Vellante, David Nicholson and Lisa Martin, we'll be right back from the theater in Barcelona, MWC 23 right after this short break. (relaxing music)

>> Narrator: theCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies, creating technologies that drive human progress. (bright upbeat music plays) >> Welcome back to Barcelona, everybody. You're watching theCUBE's coverage of MWC '23, my name is Dave Vellante. Just left a meeting with the CEO of Cisco, Chuck Robbins, to meet with Jeetu Patel, who's our Executive Vice President and General Manager of security and collaboration at Cisco. Good to see you. >> You never leave a meeting with Chuck Robbins to meet with Jeetu Patel. >> Well, I did. >> That's a bad idea. >> Walked right out. I said, hey, I got an interview to do, right? So, and I'm excited about this. Thanks so much for coming on. >> Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure. >> So, I mean you run such an important part of the business. I mean, obviously the collaboration business but also security. So many changes going on in the security market. Maybe we could start there. I mean, there hasn't been a ton of security talk here Jeetu, because I think it's almost assumed. It was 45 minutes into the keynote yesterday before anybody even mentioned security. >> Huh. >> Right? And so, but it's the most important topic in the enterprise IT world. And obviously is important here. So why is it you think that it's not the first topic that people mention. >> You know, it's a complicated subject area and it's intimidating. And actually that's one of the things that the industry screwed up on. Where we need to simplify security so it actually gets to be relatable for every person on the planet. But, if you think about what's happening in security, it's not just important for business it's critical infrastructure that if you had a breach, you know lives are cost now. Because hospitals could go down, your water supply could go down, your electricity could go down. And so it's one of these things that we have to take pretty seriously. And, it's 51% of all breaches happen because of negligence, not because of malicious intent. >> It's that low. Interesting. I always- >> Someone else told me the same thing, that they though it'd be higher, yeah. >> I always say bad user behavior is going to trump good security every time. >> Every single time. >> You can't beat it. But, you know, it's funny- >> Jeetu: Every single time. >> Back, the earlier part of last decade, you could see that security was becoming a board level issue. It became, it was on the agenda every quarter. And, I remember doing some research at the time, and I asked, I was interviewing Robert Gates, former Defense Secretary, and I asked him, yeah, but we're getting attacked but don't we have the best offense? Can't we have the best technology? He said, yeah but we have so much critical infrastructure the risks to United States are higher. So we have to be careful about how we use security as an offensive weapon, you know? And now you're seeing the future of war involves security and what's going on in Ukraine. It's a whole different ballgame. >> It is, and the scales always tip towards the adversary, not towards the defender, because you have to be right every single time. They have to be right once. >> Yeah. And, to the other point, about bad user behavior. It's going now beyond the board level, to it's everybody's responsibility. >> That's right. >> And everybody's sort of aware of it, everybody's been hacked. And, that's where it being such a complicated topic is problematic. >> It is, and it's actually, what got us this far will not get us to where we need to get to if we don't simplify security radically. You know? The experience has to be almost invisible. And what used to be the case was sophistication had to get to a certain level, for efficacy to go up. But now, that sophistication has turned to complexity. And there's an inverse relationship between complexity and efficacy. So the simpler you make security, the more effective it gets. And so I'll give you an example. We have this great kind of innovation we've done around passwordless, right? Everyone hates passwords. You shouldn't have passwords in 2023. But, when you get to passwordless security, not only do you reduce a whole lot of friction for the user, you actually make the system safer. And that's what you need to do, is you have to make it simpler while making it more effective. And, I think that's what the future is going to hold. >> Yeah, and CISOs tell me that they're, you know zero trust before the pandemic was like, yeah, yeah zero trust. And now it's like a mandate. >> Yeah. >> Every CISO you talk to says, yes we're implementing a zero trust architecture. And a big part of that is that, if they can confirm zero trust, they can get to market a lot faster with revenue generating or critical projects. And many projects as we know are being pushed back, >> Yeah. >> you know? 'Cause of the macro. But, projects that drive revenue and value they want to accelerate, and a zero trust confirmation allows people to rubber stamp it and go faster. >> And the whole concept of zero trust is least privileged access, right? But what we want to make sure that we get to is continuous assessment of least privileged access, not just a one time at login. >> Dave: 'Cause things change so frequently. >> So, for example, if you happen to be someone that's logged into the system and now you start doing some anomalous behavior that doesn't sound like Dave, we want to be able to intercept, not just do it at the time that you're authenticating Dave to come in. >> So you guys got a good business. I mentioned the macro before. >> Yeah. >> The big theme is consolidating redundant vendors. So a company with a portfolio like Cisco's obviously has an advantage there. You know, you guys had great earnings. Palo Alto is another company that can consolidate. Tom Gillis, great pickup. Guy's amazing, you know? >> Love Tom. >> Great respect. Just had a little webinar session with him, where he was geeking out with the analyst and so- >> Yeah, yeah. >> Learned a lot there. Now you guys have some news, at the event event with Mercedes? >> We do. >> Take us through that, and I want to get your take on hybrid work and what's happening there. But what's going on with Mercedes? >> Yeah so look, it all actually stems from the hybrid work story, which is the future is going to be hybrid, people are going to work in mixed mode. Sometimes you'll be in the office, sometimes at home, sometimes somewhere in the middle. One of the places that people are working more and more from is their cars. And connected cars are getting to be a reality. And in fact, cars sometimes become an extension of your home office. And many a times I have found myself in a parking lot, because I didn't have enough time to get home and I was in a parking lot taking a conference call. And so we've made that section easier, because we have now partnered with Mercedes. And they aren't the first partner, but they're a very important partner where we are going to have Webex available, through the connected car, natively in Mercedes. >> Ah, okay. So I could take a call, I can do it all the time. I find good service, pull over, got to take the meeting. >> Yeah. >> I don't want to be driving. I got to concentrate. >> That's right. >> You know, or sometimes, I'll have the picture on and it's not good. >> That's right. >> Okay, so it'll be through the console, and all through the internet? >> It'll be through the console. And many people ask me like, how's safety going to work over that? Because you don't want to do video calls while you're driving. Exactly right. So when you're driving, the video automatically turns off. And you'll have audio going on, just like a conference call. But the moment you stop and put it in park, you can have video turned on. >> Now, of course the whole hybrid work trend, we, seems like a long time ago but it doesn't, you know? And it's really changed the security dynamic as well, didn't it? >> It has, it has. >> I mean, immediately you had to go protect new endpoints. And those changes, I felt at the time, were permanent. And I think it's still the case, but there's an equilibrium now happening. People as they come back to the office, you see a number of companies are mandating back to work. Maybe the central offices, or the headquarters, were underfunded. So what's going on out there in terms of that balance? >> Well firstly, there's no unanimous consensus on the way that the future is going to be, except that it's going to be hybrid. And the reason I say that is some companies mandate two days a week, some companies mandate five days a week, some companies don't mandate at all. Some companies are completely remote. But whatever way you go, you want to make sure that regardless of where you're working from, people can have an inclusive experience. You know? And, when they have that experience, you want to be able to work from a managed device or an unmanaged device, from a corporate network or from a Starbucks, from on the road or stationary. And whenever you do any of those things, we want to make sure that security is always handled, and you don't have to worry about that. And so the way that we say it is the company that created the VPN, which is Cisco, is the one that's going to kill it. Because what we'll do is we'll make it simple enough so that you don't, you as a user, never have to worry about what connection you're going to use to dial in to what app. You will have one, seamless way to dial into any application, public application, private application, or directly to the internet. >> Yeah, I got a love, hate with my VPN. I mean, it's protecting me, but it's in the way a lot. >> It's going to be simple as ever. >> Do you have kids? >> I do, I have a 12 year old daughter. >> Okay, so not quite high school age yet. She will be shortly. >> No, but she's already, I'm not looking forward to high school days, because she has a very, very strong sense of debate and she wins 90% of the arguments. >> So when my kids were that age, I've got four kids, but the local high school banned Wikipedia, they can't use Wikipedia for research. Many colleges, I presume high schools as well, they're banning Chat GPT, can't use it. Now at the same time, I saw recently on Medium a Wharton school professor said he's mandating Chat GPT to teach his students how to prompt in progressively more sophisticated prompts, because the future is interacting with machines. You know, they say in five years we're all going to be interacting in some way, shape, or form with AI. Maybe we already are. What's the intersection between AI and security? >> So a couple very, very consequential things. So firstly on Chat GPT, the next generation skill is going to be to learn how to go out and have the right questions to ask, which is the prompt revolution that we see going on right now. But if you think about what's happening in security, and there's a few areas which are, firstly 3,500 hundred vendors in this space. On average, most companies have 50 to 70 vendors in security. Not a single vendor owns more than 10% of the market. You take out a couple vendors, no one owns more than 5%. Highly fractured market. That's a problem. Because it's untenable for companies to go out and manage 70 policy engines. And going out and making sure that there's no contention. So as you move forward, one of the things that Chat GPT will be really good for is it's fundamentally going to change user experiences, for how software gets built. Because rather than it being point and click, it's going to be I'm going to provide an instruction and it's going to tell me what to do in natural language. Imagine Dave, when you joined a company if someone said, hey give Dave all the permissions that he needs as a direct report to Chuck. And instantly you would get all of the permissions. And it would actually show up in a screen that says, do you approve? And if you hit approve, you're done. The interfaces of the future will get more natural language kind of dominated. The other area that you'll see is the sophistication of attacks and the surface area of attacks is increasing quite exponentially. And we no longer can handle this with human scale. You have to handle it in machine scale. So detecting breaches, making sure that you can effectively and quickly respond in real time to the breaches, and remediate those breaches, is all going to happen through AI and machine learning. >> So, I agree. I mean, just like Amazon turned the data center into an API, I think we're now going to be interfacing with technology through human language. >> That's right. >> I mean I think it's a really interesting point you're making. Now, from a security standpoint as well, I mean, the state of the art today in my email is be careful, this person's outside your organization. I'm like, yeah I know. So it's a good warning sign, but it's really not automated in any way. So two part question. One is, can AI help? You know, with the phishing, obviously it can, but the bad guys have AI too. >> Yeah. >> And they're probably going to be smarter than I am about using it. >> Yeah, and by the way, Talos is our kind of threat detection and response >> Yes. >> kind of engine. And, they had a great kind of piece that came out recently where they talked about this, where Chat GPT, there is going to be more sophistication of the folks that are the bad actors, the adversaries in using Chat GPT to have more sophisticated phishing attacks. But today it's not something that is fundamentally something that we can't handle just yet. But you still need to do the basic hygiene. That's more important. Over time, what you will see is attacks will get more bespoke. And in order, they'll get more sophisticated. And, you will need to have better mechanisms to know that this was actually not a human being writing that to you, but it was actually a machine pretending to be a human being writing something to you. And that you'll have to be more clever about it. >> Oh interesting. >> And so, you will see attacks get more bespoke and we'll have to get smarter and smarter about it. >> The other thing I wanted to ask you before we close is you're right on. I mean you take the top security vendors and they got a single digit market share. And it's like it's untenable for organizations, just far too many tools. We have a partner at ETR, they do quarterly survey research and one of the things they do is survey emerging technology companies. And when we look at in the security sector just the number of emerging technology companies that are focused on cybersecurity is as many as there are out there already. And so, there's got to be consolidation. Maybe that's through M & A. I mean, what do you think happens? Are company's going to go out of business? There's going to be a lot of M & A? You've seen a lot of companies go private. You know, the big PE companies are sucking up all these security companies and may be ready to spit 'em out and go back public. How do you see the landscape? You guys are obviously an inquisitive company. What are your thoughts on that? >> I think there will be a little bit of everything. But the biggest change that you'll see is a shift that's going to happen with an integrated platform, rather than point solution vendors. So what's going to happen is the market's going to consolidate towards very few, less than a half a dozen, integrated platforms. We believe Cisco is going to be one. Microsoft will be one. There'll be others over there. But these, this platform will essentially be able to provide a unified kind of policy engine across a multitude of different services to protect multiple different entities within the organization. And, what we found is that platform will also be something that'll provide, through APIs, the ability for third parties to be able to get their technology incorporated in, and their telemetry ingested. So we certainly intend to do that. We don't believe, we are not arrogant enough to think that every single new innovation will be built by us. When there's someone else who has built that, we want to make sure that we can ingest that telemetry as well, because the real enemy is not the competitor. The real enemy is the adversary. And we all have to get together, so that we can keep humanity safe. >> Do you think there's been enough collaboration in the industry? I mean- >> Jeetu: Not nearly enough. >> We've seen companies, security companies try to monetize private data before, instead of maybe sharing it with competitors. And so I think the industry can do better there. >> Well I think the industry can do better. And we have this concept called the security poverty line. And the security poverty line is the companies that fall below the security poverty line don't have either the influence or the resources or the know how to keep themselves safe. And when they go unsafe, everyone else that communicates with them also gets that exposure. So it is in our collective interest for all of us to make sure that we come together. And, even if Palo Alto might be a competitor of ours, we want to make sure that we invite them to say, let's make sure that we can actually exchange telemetry between our companies. And we'll continue to do that with as many companies that are out there, because actually that's better for the market, that's better for the world. >> The enemy of the enemy is my friend, kind of thing. >> That's right. >> Now, as it relates to, because you're right. I mean I, I see companies coming up, oh, we do IOT security. I'm like, okay, but what about cloud security? Do you that too? Oh no, that's somebody else. But, so that's another stove pipe. >> That's a huge, huge advantage of coming with someone like Cisco. Because we actually have the entire spectrum, and the broadest portfolio in the industry of anyone else. From the user, to the device, to the network, to the applications, we provide the entire end-to-end story for security, which then has the least amount of cracks that you can actually go out and penetrate through. The biggest challenges that happen in security is you've got way too many policy engines with way too much contention between the policies from these different systems. And eventually there's a collision course. Whereas with us, you've actually got a broad portfolio that operates as one platform. >> We were talking about the cloud guys earlier. You mentioned Microsoft. They're obviously a big competitor in the security space. >> Jeetu: But also a great partner. >> So that's right. To my opinion, the cloud has been awesome as a first line of defense if you will. But the shared responsibility model it's different for each cloud, right? So, do you feel that those guys are working together or will work together to actually improve? 'Cause I don't see that yet. >> Yeah so if you think about, this is where we feel like we have a structural advantage in this, because what does a company like Cisco become in the future? I think as the world goes multicloud and hybrid cloud, what'll end up happening is there needs to be a way, today all the CSPs provide everything from storage to computer network, to security, in their own stack. If we can abstract networking and security above them, so that we can acquire and steer any and all traffic with our service providers and steer it to any of those CSPs, and make sure that the security policy transcends those clouds, you would actually be able to have the public cloud economics without the public cloud lock-in. >> That's what we call super cloud Jeetu. It's securing the super cloud. >> Yeah. >> Hey, thanks so much for coming to theCUBE. >> Thank you for having me. >> Really appreciate you coming on our editorial program. >> Such a pleasure. >> All right, great to see you again. >> Cheers. >> All right, keep it right there. Dave Vellante with David Nicholson and Lisa Martin. We'll be back, right after this short break from MWC '23 live, in the Fira, in Barcelona. (bright music resumes) (music fades out)

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR, this is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> While never really meant to be a consumer tech event, the rapid ascendancy of smartphones sucked much of the air out of Mobile World Congress over the years, now MWC. And while the device manufacturers continue to have a major presence at the show, the maturity of intelligent devices, longer life cycles, and the disaggregation of the network stack, have put enterprise technologies front and center in the telco business. Semiconductor manufacturers, network equipment players, infrastructure companies, cloud vendors, software providers, and a spate of startups are eyeing the trillion dollar plus communications industry as one of the next big things to watch this decade. Hello, and welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE Insights, powered by ETR. In this Breaking Analysis, we bring you part two of our ongoing coverage of MWC '23, with some new data on enterprise players specifically in large telco environments, a brief glimpse at some of the pre-announcement news and corresponding themes ahead of MWC, and some of the key announcement areas we'll be watching at the show on theCUBE. Now, last week we shared some ETR data that showed how traditional enterprise tech players were performing, specifically within the telecoms vertical. Here's a new look at that data from ETR, which isolates the same companies, but cuts the data for what ETR calls large telco. The N in this cut is 196, down from 288 last week when we included all company sizes in the dataset. Now remember the two dimensions here, on the y-axis is net score, or spending momentum, and on the x-axis is pervasiveness in the data set. The table insert in the upper left informs how the dots and companies are plotted, and that red dotted line, the horizontal line at 40%, that indicates a highly elevated net score. Now while the data are not dramatically different in terms of relative positioning, there are a couple of changes at the margin. So just going down the list and focusing on net score. Azure is comparable, but slightly lower in this sector in the large telco than it was overall. Google Cloud comes in at number two, and basically swapped places with AWS, which drops slightly in the large telco relative to overall telco. Snowflake is also slightly down by one percentage point, but maintains its position. Remember Snowflake, overall, its net score is much, much higher when measuring across all verticals. Snowflake comes down in telco, and relative to overall, a little bit down in large telco, but it's making some moves to attack this market that we'll talk about in a moment. Next are Red Hat OpenStack and Databricks. About the same in large tech telco as they were an overall telco. Then there's Dell next that has a big presence at MWC and is getting serious about driving 16G adoption, and new servers, and edge servers, and other partnerships. Cisco and Red Hat OpenShift basically swapped spots when moving from all telco to large telco, as Cisco drops and Red Hat bumps up a bit. And VMware dropped about four percentage points in large telco. Accenture moved up dramatically, about nine percentage points in big telco, large telco relative to all telco. HPE dropped a couple of percentage points. Oracle stayed about the same. And IBM surprisingly dropped by about five points. So look, I understand not a ton of change in terms of spending momentum in the large sector versus telco overall, but some deltas. The bottom line for enterprise players is one, they're just getting started in this new disruption journey that they're on as the stack disaggregates. Two, all these players have experience in delivering horizontal solutions, but now working with partners and identifying big problems to be solved, and three, many of these companies are generally not the fastest moving firms relative to smaller disruptive disruptors. Now, cloud has been an exception in fairness. But the good news for the legacy infrastructure and IT companies is that the telco transformation and the 5G buildout is going to take years. So it's moving at a pace that is very favorable to many of these companies. Okay, so looking at just some of the pre-announcement highlights that have hit the wire this week, I want to give you a glimpse of the diversity of innovation that is occurring in the telecommunication space. You got semiconductor manufacturers, device makers, network equipment players, carriers, cloud vendors, enterprise tech companies, software companies, startups. Now we've included, you'll see in this list, we've included OpeRAN, that logo, because there's so much buzz around the topic and we're going to come back to that. But suffice it to say, there's no way we can cover all the announcements from the 2000 plus exhibitors at the show. So we're going to cherry pick here and make a few call outs. Hewlett Packard Enterprise announced an acquisition of an Italian private cellular network company called AthoNet. Zeus Kerravala wrote about it on SiliconANGLE if you want more details. Now interestingly, HPE has a partnership with Solana, which also does private 5G. But according to Zeus, Solona is more of an out-of-the-box solution, whereas AthoNet is designed for the core and requires more integration. And as you'll see in a moment, there's going to be a lot of talk at the show about private network. There's going to be a lot of news there from other competitors, and we're going to be watching that closely. And while many are concerned about the P5G, private 5G, encroaching on wifi, Kerravala doesn't see it that way. Rather, he feels that these private networks are really designed for more industrial, and you know mission critical environments, like factories, and warehouses that are run by robots, et cetera. 'Cause these can justify the increased expense of private networks. Whereas wifi remains a very low cost and flexible option for, you know, whatever offices and homes. Now, over to Dell. Dell announced its intent to go hard after opening up the telco network with the announcement that in the second half of this year it's going to begin shipping its infrastructure blocks for Red Hat. Remember it's like kind of the converged infrastructure for telco with a more open ecosystem and sort of more flexible, you know, more mature engineered system. Dell has also announced a range of PowerEdge servers for a variety of use cases. A big wide line bringing forth its 16G portfolio and aiming squarely at the telco space. Dell also announced, here we go, a private wireless offering with airspan, and Expedo, and a solution with AthoNet, the company HPE announced it was purchasing. So I guess Dell and HPE are now partnering up in the private wireless space, and yes, hell is freezing over folks. We'll see where that relationship goes in the mid- to long-term. Dell also announced new lab and certification capabilities, which we said last week was going to be critical for the further adoption of open ecosystem technology. So props to Dell for, you know, putting real emphasis and investment in that. AWS also made a number of announcements in this space including private wireless solutions and associated managed services. AWS named Deutsche Telekom, Orange, T-Mobile, Telefonica, and some others as partners. And AWS announced the stepped up partnership, specifically with T-Mobile, to bring AWS services to T-Mobile's network portfolio. Snowflake, back to Snowflake, announced its telecom data cloud. Remember we showed the data earlier, it's Snowflake not as strong in the telco sector, but they're continuing to move toward this go-to market alignment within key industries, realigning their go-to market by vertical. It also announced that AT&T, and a number of other partners, are collaborating to break down data silos specifically in telco. Look, essentially, this is Snowflake taking its core value prop to the telco vertical and forming key partnerships that resonate in the space. So think simplification, breaking down silos, data sharing, eventually data monetization. Samsung previewed its future capability to allow smartphones to access satellite services, something Apple has previously done. AMD, Intel, Marvell, Qualcomm, are all in the act, all the semiconductor players. Qualcomm for example, announced along with Telefonica, and Erickson, a 5G millimeter network that will be showcased in Spain at the event this coming week using Qualcomm Snapdragon chipset platform, based on none other than Arm technology. Of course, Arm we said is going to dominate the edge, and is is clearly doing so. It's got the volume advantage over, you know, traditional Intel, you know, X86 architectures. And it's no surprise that Microsoft is touting its open AI relationship. You're going to hear a lot of AI talk at this conference as is AI is now, you know, is the now topic. All right, we could go on and on and on. There's just so much going on at Mobile World Congress or MWC, that we just wanted to give you a glimpse of some of the highlights that we've been watching. Which brings us to the key topics and issues that we'll be exploring at MWC next week. We touched on some of this last week. A big topic of conversation will of course be, you know, 5G. Is it ever going to become real? Is it, is anybody ever going to make money at 5G? There's so much excitement around and anticipation around 5G. It has not lived up to the hype, but that's because the rollout, as we've previous reported, is going to take years. And part of that rollout is going to rely on the disaggregation of the hardened telco stack, as we reported last week and in previous Breaking Analysis episodes. OpenRAN is a big component of that evolution. You know, as our RAN intelligent controllers, RICs, which essentially the brain of OpenRAN, if you will. Now as we build out 5G networks at massive scale and accommodate unprecedented volumes of data and apply compute-hungry AI to all this data, the issue of energy efficiency is going to be front and center. It has to be. Not only is it a, you know, hot political issue, the reality is that improving power efficiency is compulsory or the whole vision of telco's future is going to come crashing down. So chip manufacturers, equipment makers, cloud providers, everybody is going to be doubling down and clicking on this topic. Let's talk about AI. AI as we said, it is the hot topic right now, but it is happening not only in consumer, with things like ChatGPT. And think about the theme of this Breaking Analysis in the enterprise, AI in the enterprise cannot be ChatGPT. It cannot be error prone the way ChatGPT is. It has to be clean, reliable, governed, accurate. It's got to be ethical. It's got to be trusted. Okay, we're going to have Zeus Kerravala on the show next week and definitely want to get his take on private networks and how they're going to impact wifi. You know, will private networks cannibalize wifi? If not, why not? He wrote about this again on SiliconANGLE if you want more details, and we're going to unpack that on theCUBE this week. And finally, as always we'll be following the data flows to understand where and how telcos, cloud players, startups, software companies, disruptors, legacy companies, end customers, how are they going to make money from new data opportunities? 'Cause we often say in theCUBE, don't ever bet against data. All right, that's a wrap for today. Remember theCUBE is going to be on location at MWC 2023 next week. We got a great set. We're in the walkway in between halls four and five, right in Congress Square, stand CS-60. Look for us, we got a full schedule. If you got a great story or you have news, stop by. We're going to try to get you on the program. I'll be there with Lisa Martin, co-hosting, David Nicholson as well, and the entire CUBE crew, so don't forget to come by and see us. I want to thank Alex Myerson, who's on production and manages the podcast, and Ken Schiffman, as well, in our Boston studio. Kristen Martin and Cheryl Knight help get the word out on social media and in our newsletters. And Rob Hof is our editor-in-chief over at SiliconANGLE.com. He does some great editing. Thank you. All right, remember all these episodes they are available as podcasts wherever you listen. All you got to do is search Breaking Analysis podcasts. I publish each week on Wikibon.com and SiliconANGLE.com. All the video content is available on demand at theCUBE.net, or you can email me directly if you want to get in touch David.Vellante@SiliconANGLE.com or DM me @DVellante, or comment on our LinkedIn posts. And please do check out ETR.ai for the best survey data in the enterprise tech business. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE Insights, powered by ETR. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next week at Mobile World Congress '23, MWC '23, or next time on Breaking Analysis. (bright music)

(upbeat music) >> Hello, beautiful humans and welcome back to Supercomputing. We're here in Dallas, Texas giving you live coverage with theCUBE. I'm joined by David Nicholson. Thank you for being my left arm today. >> Thank you Savannah. >> It's a nice little moral. Very excited about this segment. We've talked a lot about how the fusion between academia and the private sector is a big theme at this show. You can see multiple universities all over the show floor as well as many of the biggest companies on earth. We were very curious to learn a little bit more about this from people actually in the trenches. And we are lucky to be joined today by two Purdue students. We have Lucas and Karl. Thank you both so much for being here. >> One Purdue, one IU, I think. >> Savannah: Oh. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> I'm sorry. Well then wait, let's give Indiana University their fair do. That's where Lucas is. And Karl is at Purdue. Sorry folks. I apparently need to go back to school to learn how to read. (chuckles) In the meantime, I know you're in the middle of a competition. Thank you so much for taking the time out. Karl, why don't you tell us what's going on? What is this competition? What brought you all here? And then let's dive into some deeper stuff. >> Yeah, this competition. So we're a joint team between Purdue and IU. We've overcome our rivalries, age old rivalries to computer at the competition. It's a multi-part competition where we're going head to head against other teams from all across the world, benchmarking our super computing cluster that we designed. >> Was there a moment of rift at all when you came together? Or was everyone peaceful? >> We came together actually pretty nicely. Our two advisors they were very encouraging and so we overcame that, no hostility basically. >> I love that. So what are you working on and how long have you guys been collaborating on it? You can go ahead and start Lucas. >> So we've been prepping for this since the summer and some of us even before that. >> Savannah: Wow. >> And so currently we're working on the application phase of the competition. So everybody has different specialties and basically the competition gives you a set of rules and you have to accomplish what they tell you to do in the allotted timeframe and run things very quickly. >> And so we saw, when we came and first met you, we saw that there are lights and sirens and a monitor looking at the power consumption involved. So part of this is how much power is being consumed. >> Karl: That's right. >> Explain exactly what are the what are the rules that you have to live within? >> So, yeah, so the main constraint is the time as we mentioned and the power consumption. So for the benchmarking phase, which was one, two days ago there was a hard camp of 3000 watts to be consumed. You can't go over that otherwise you would be penalized for that. You have to rerun, start from scratch basically. Now there's a dynamic one for the application section where it's it modulates at random times. So we don't know when it's going to go down when it's going to go back up. So we have to adapt to that in real time. >> David: Oh, interesting. >> Dealing with a little bit of real world complexity I guess probably is simulation is here. I think that's pretty fascinating. I want to know, because I am going to just confess when I was your age last week, I did not understand the power of supercomputing and high performance computing. Lucas, let's start with you. How did you know this was the path you wanted to go down in your academic career? >> David: Yeah, what's your background? >> Yeah, give us some. >> So my background is intelligence systems engineering which is kind of a fusion. It's between, I'm doing bioengineering and then also more classical computer engineering. So my background is biology actually. But I decided to go down this path kind of on a whim. My professor suggested it and I've kind of fallen in love with it. I did my summer internship doing HPC and I haven't looked back. >> When did you think you wanted to go into this field? I mean, in high school, did you have a special teacher that sparked it? What was it? >> Lucas: That's funny that you say that. >> What was in your background? >> Yes, I mean, in high school towards the end I just knew that, I saw this program at IU and it's pretty new and I just thought this would be a great opportunity for me and I'm loving it so far. >> Do you have family in tech or is this a different path for you? >> Yeah, this is a different path for me, but my family is so encouraging and they're very happy for me. They text me all the time. So I couldn't be happier. >> Savannah: Just felt that in my heart. >> I know. I was going to say for the parents out there get the tissue out. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. (chuckles) >> These guys they don't understand. But, so Karl, what's your story? What's your background? >> My background, I'm a major in unmanned Aerial systems. So this is a drones commercial applications not immediately connected as you might imagine although there's actually more overlap than one might think. So a lot of unmanned systems today a lot of it's remote sensing, which means that there's a lot of image processing that takes place. Mapping of a field, what have you, or some sort of object, like a silo. So a lot of it actually leverages high performance computing in order to map, to visualize much replacing, either manual mapping that used to be done by humans in the field or helicopters. So a lot of cost reduction there and efficiency increases. >> And when did you get this spark that said I want to go to Purdue? You mentioned off camera that you're from Belgium. >> Karl: That's right. >> Did you, did you come from Belgium to Purdue or you were already in the States? >> No, so I have family that lives in the States but I grew up in Belgium. >> David: Okay. >> I knew I wanted to study in the States. >> But at what age did you think that science and technology was something you'd be interested in? >> Well, I've always loved computers from a young age. I've been breaking computers since before I can remember. (chuckles) Much to my parents dismay. But yeah, so I've always had a knack for technology and that's sort of has always been a hobby of mine. >> And then I want to ask you this question and then Lucas and then Savannah will get some time. >> Savannah: It cool, will just sit here and look pretty. >> Dream job. >> Karl: Dream job. >> Okay. So your undergrad both you. >> Savannah: Offering one of my questions. Kind of, It's adjacent though. >> Okay. You're undergrad now? Is there grad school in your future do you feel that's necessary? Is that something you want to pursue? >> I think so. Entrepreneurship is something that's been in the back of my head for a while as well. So may be or something. >> So when I say dream job, understand could be for yourself. >> Savannah: So just piggyback. >> Dream thing after academia or stay in academia. What's do you think at this point? >> That's a tough question. You're asking. >> You'll be able to review this video in 10 years. >> Oh boy. >> This is give us your five year plan and then we'll have you back on theCUBE and see 2027. >> What's the dream? There's people out here watching this. I'm like, go, hey, interesting. >> So as I mentioned entrepreneurship I'm thinking I'll start a company at some point. >> David: Okay. >> Yeah. In what? I don't know yet. We'll see. >> David: Lucas, any thoughts? >> So after graduation, I am planning to go to grad school. IU has a great accelerated master's degree program so I'll stay an extra year and get my master's. Dream job is, boy, that's impossible to answer but I remember telling my dad earlier this year that I was so interested in what NASA was doing. They're sending a probe to one of the moons of Jupiter. >> That's awesome. From a parent's perspective the dream often is let's get the kids off the payroll. So I'm sure that your families are happy to hear that you have. >> I think these two will be right in that department. >> I think they're going to be okay. >> Yeah, I love that. I was curious, I want to piggyback on that because I think when NASA's doing amazing we have them on the show. Who doesn't love space. >> Yeah. >> I'm also an entrepreneur though so I very much empathize with that. I was going to ask to your dream job, but also what companies here do you find the most impressive? I'll rephrase. Because I was going to say, who would you want to work with? >> David: Anything you think is interesting? >> But yeah. Have you even had a chance to walk the floor? I know you've been busy competing >> Karl: Very little. >> Yeah, I was going to say very little. Unfortunately I haven't been able to roam around very much. But I look around and I see names that I'm like I can't even, it's crazy to see them. Like, these are people who are so impressive in the space. These are people who are extremely smart. I'm surrounded by geniuses everywhere I look, I feel like, so. >> Savannah: That that includes us. >> Yeah. >> He wasn't talking about us. Yeah. (laughs) >> I mean it's hard to say any of these companies I would feel very very lucky to be a part of, I think. >> Well there's a reason why both of you were invited to the party, so keep that in mind. Yeah. But so not a lot of time because of. >> Yeah. Tomorrow's our day. >> Here to get work. >> Oh yes. Tomorrow gets play and go talk to everybody. >> Yes. >> And let them recruit you because I'm sure that's what a lot of these companies are going to be doing. >> Yeah. Hopefully it's plan. >> Have you had a second at all to look around Karl. >> A Little bit more I've been going to the bathroom once in a while. (laughs) >> That's allowed I mean, I can imagine that's a vital part of the journey. >> I've ruin my gaze a little bit to what's around all kinds of stuff. Higher education seems to be very important in terms of their presence here. I find that very, very impressive. Purdue has a big stand IU as well, but also others all from Europe as well and Asia. I think higher education has a lot of potential in this field. >> David: Absolutely. >> And it really is that union between academia and the private sector. We've seen a lot of it. But also one of the things that's cool about HPC is it's really not ageist. It hasn't been around for that long. So, I mean, well, at this scale it's obviously this show's been going on since 1988 before you guys were even probably a thought. But I think it's interesting. It's so fun to get to meet you both. Thank you for sharing about what you're doing and what your dreams are. Lucas and Karl. >> David: Thanks for taking the time. >> I hope you win and we're going to get you off the show here as quickly as possible so you can get back to your teams and back to competing. David, great questions as always, thanks for being here. And thank you all for tuning in to theCUBE Live from Dallas, Texas, where we are at Supercomputing. My name's Savannah Peterson and I hope you're having a beautiful day. (gentle upbeat music)

>>How do y'all, and welcome back to Supercomputing 2022. We're the Cube, and we are live from Dallas, Texas. I'm joined by my co-host, David Nicholson. David, hello. Hello. We are gonna be talking about data and enterprise AI at scale during this segment. And we have the pleasure of being joined by both Dell and Navidia. Anthony and Bob, welcome to the show. How you both doing? Doing good. >>Great. Great show so far. >>Love that. Enthusiasm, especially in the afternoon on day two. I think we all, what, what's in that cup? Is there something exciting in there that maybe we should all be sharing with you? >>Just say it's just still Yeah, water. >>Yeah. Yeah. I love that. So I wanna make sure that, cause we haven't talked about this at all during the show yet, on the cube, I wanna make sure that everyone's on the same page when we're talking about data unstructured versus structured data. I, it's in your title, Anthony, tell me what, what's the difference? >>Well, look, the world has been based in analytics around rows and columns, spreadsheets, data warehouses, and we've made predictions around the forecast of sales maintenance issues. But when we take computers and we give them eyes, ears, and fingers, cameras, microphones, and temperature and vibration sensors, we now translate that into more human experience. But that kind of data, the sensor data, that video camera is unstructured or semi-structured, that's what that >>Means. We live in a world of unstructured data structure is something we add to later after the fact. But the world that we see and the world that we experience is unstructured data. And one of the promises of AI is to be able to take advantage of everything that's going on around us and augment that, improve that, solve problems based on that. And so if we're gonna do that job effectively, we can't just depend on structured data to get the problem done. We have to be able to incorporate everything that we can see here, taste, smell, touch, and use >>That as, >>As part of the problem >>Solving. We want the chaos, bring it. >>Chaos has been a little bit of a theme of our >>Show. It has been, yeah. And chaos is in the eye of the beholder. You, you think about, you think about the reason for structuring data to a degree. We had limited processing horsepower back when everything was being structured as a way to allow us to be able to, to to reason over it and gain insights. So it made sense to put things into rows and tables. How does, I'm curious, diving right into where Nvidia fits into this, into this puzzle, how does NVIDIA accelerate or enhance our ability to glean insight from or reason over unstructured data in particular? >>Yeah, great question. It's really all about, I would say it's all about ai and Invidia is a leader in the AI space. We've been investing and focusing on AI since at least 2012, if not before, accelerated computing that we do it. Invidia is an important part of it, really. We believe that AI is gonna revolutionize nearly every aspect of computing. Really nearly every aspect of problem solving, even nearly every aspect of programming. And one of the reasons is for what we're talking about now is it's a little impact. Being able to incorporate unstructured data into problem solving is really critical to being able to solve the next generation of problems. AI unlocks, tools and methodologies that we can realistically do that with. It's not realistic to write procedural code that's gonna look at a picture and solve all the problems that we need to solve if we're talking about a complex problem like autonomous driving. But with AI and its ability to naturally absorb unstructured data and make intelligent reason decisions based on it, it's really a breakthrough. And that's what NVIDIA's been focusing on for at least a decade or more. >>And how does NVIDIA fit into Dell's strategy? >>Well, I mean, look, we've been partners for many, many years delivering beautiful experiences on workstations and laptops. But as we see the transition away from taking something that was designed to make something pretty on screen to being useful in solving problems in life sciences, manufacturing in other places, we work together to provide integrated solutions. So take for example, the dgx a 100 platform, brilliant design, revolutionary bus technologies, but the rocket ship can't go to Mars without the fuel. And so you need a tank that can scale in performance at the same rate as you throw GPUs at it. And so that's where the relationship really comes alive. We enable people to curate the data, organize it, and then feed those algorithms that get the answers that Bob's been talking about. >>So, so as a gamer, I must say you're a little shot at making things pretty on a screen. Come on. That was a low blow. That >>Was a low blow >>Sassy. What I, >>I Now what's in your cup? That's what I wanna know, Dave, >>I apparently have the most boring cup of anyone on you today. I don't know what happened. We're gonna have to talk to the production team. I'm looking at all of you. We're gonna have to make that better. One of the themes that's been on this show, and I love that you all embrace the chaos, we're, we're seeing a lot of trend in the experimentation phase or stage rather. And it's, we're in an academic zone of it with ai, companies are excited to adopt, but most companies haven't really rolled out their strategy. What is necessary for us to move from this kind of science experiment, science fiction in our heads to practical application at scale? Well, >>Let me take this, Bob. So I've noticed there's a pattern of three levels of maturity. The first level is just what you described. It's about having an experience, proof of value, getting stakeholders on board, and then just picking out what technology, what algorithm do I need? What's my data source? That's all fun, but it is chaos over time. People start actually making decisions based on it. This moves us into production. And what's important there is normality, predictability, commonality across, but hidden and embedded in that is a center of excellence. The community of data scientists and business intelligence professionals sharing a common platform in the last stage, we get hungry to replicate those results to other use cases, throwing even more information at it to get better accuracy and precision. But to do this in a budget you can afford. And so how do you figure out all the knobs and dials to turn in order to make, take billions of parameters and process that, that's where casual, what's >>That casual decision matrix there with billions of parameters? >>Yeah. Oh, I mean, >>But you're right that >>That's, that's exactly what we're, we're on this continuum, and this is where I think the partnership does really well, is to marry high performant enterprise grade scalability that provides the consistency, the audit trail, all of the things you need to make sure you don't get in trouble, plus all of the horsepower to get to the results. Bob, what would you >>Add there? I think the thing that we've been talking about here is complexity. And there's complexity in the AI problem solving space. There's complexity everywhere you look. And we talked about the idea that NVIDIA can help with some of that complexity from the architecture and the software development side of it. And Dell helps with that in a whole range of ways, not the least of which is the infrastructure and the server design and everything that goes into unlocking the performance of the technology that we have available to us today. So even the center of excellence is an example of how do I take this incredibly complex problem and simplify it down so that the real world can absorb and use this? And that's really what Dell and Vidia are partnering together to do. And that's really what the center of excellence is. It's an idea to help us say, let's take this extremely complex problem and extract some good value out of >>It. So what is Invidia's superpower in this realm? I mean, look, we're we are in, we, we are in the era of Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're, we're in a season of microprocessor manufacturers, one uping, one another with their latest announcements. There's been an ebb and a flow in our industry between doing everything via the CPU versus offloading processes. Invidia comes up and says, Hey, hold on a second, gpu, which again, was focused on graphics processing originally doing something very, very specific. How does that translate today? What's the Nvidia again? What's, what's, what's the superpower? Because people will say, well, hey, I've got a, I've got a cpu, why do I need you? >>I think our superpower is accelerated computing, and that's really a hardware and software thing. I think your question is slanted towards the hardware side, which is, yes, it is very typical and we do make great processors, but the processor, the graphics processor that you talked about from 10 or 20 years ago was designed to solve a very complex task. And it was exquisitely designed to solve that task with the resources that we had available at that time. Time. Now, fast forward 10 or 15 years, we're talking about a new class of problems called ai. And it requires both exquisite, soft, exquisite processor design as well as very complex and exquisite software design sitting on top of it as well. And the systems and infrastructure knowledge, high performance storage and everything that we're talking about in the solution today. So Nvidia superpower is really about that accelerated computing stack at the bottom. You've got hardware above that, you've got systems above that, you have middleware and libraries and above that you have what we call application SDKs that enable the simplification of this really complex problem to this domain or that domain or that domain, while still allowing you to take advantage of that processing horsepower that we put in that exquisitely designed thing called the gpu >>Decreasing complexity and increasing speed to very key themes of the show. Shocking, no one, you all wanna do more faster. Speaking of that, and I'm curious because you both serve a lot of different unique customers, verticals and use cases, is there a specific project that you're allowed to talk about? Or, I mean, you know, you wanna give us the scoop, that's totally cool too. We're here for the scoop on the cube, but is there a specific project or use case that has you personally excited Anthony? We'll start with that. >>Look, I'm, I've always been a big fan of natural language processing. I don't know why, but to derive intent based on the word choices is very interesting to me. I think what compliments that is natural language generation. So now we're having AI programs actually discover and describe what's inside of a package. It wouldn't surprise me that over time we move from doing the typical summary on the economic, the economics of the day or what happened in football. And we start moving that towards more of the creative advertising and marketing arts where you are no longer needed because the AI is gonna spit out the result. I don't think we're gonna get there, but I really love this idea of human language and computational linguistics. >>What a, what a marriage. I agree. Think it's fascinating. What about you, Bob? It's got you >>Pumped. The thing that really excites me is the problem solving, sort of the tip of the spear in problem solving. The stuff that you've never seen before, the stuff that you know, in a geeky way kind of takes your breath away. And I'm gonna jump or pivot off of what Anthony said. Large language models are really one of those areas that are just, I think they're amazing and they're just kind of surprising everyone with what they can do here on the show floor. I was looking at a demonstration from a large language model startup, basically, and they were showing that you could ask a question about some obscure news piece that was reported only in a German newspaper. It was about a little shipwreck that happened in a hardware. And I could type in a query to this system and it would immediately know where to find that information as if it read the article, summarized it for you, and it even could answer questions that you could only only answer by looking pic, looking at pictures in that article. Just amazing stuff that's going on. Just phenomenal >>Stuff. That's a huge accessibility. >>That's right. And I geek out when I see stuff like that. And that's where I feel like all this work that Dell and Invidia and many others are putting into this space is really starting to show potential in ways that we wouldn't have dreamed of really five years ago. Just really amazing. And >>We see this in media and entertainment. So in broadcasting, you have a sudden event, someone leaves this planet where they discover something new where they get a divorce and they're a major quarterback. You wanna go back somewhere in all of your archives to find that footage. That's a very laborist project. But if you can use AI technology to categorize that and provide the metadata tag so you can, it's searchable, then we're off to better productions, more interesting content and a much richer viewer experience >>And a much more dynamic picture of what's really going on. Factoring all of that in, I love that. I mean, David and I are both nerds and I know we've had take our breath away moments, so I appreciate that you just brought that up. Don't worry, you're in good company. In terms of the Geek Squad over >>Here, I think actually maybe this entire show for Yes, exactly. >>I mean, we were talking about how steampunk some of the liquid cooling stuff is, and you know, this is the only place on earth really, or the only show where you would come and see it at this level in scale and, and just, yeah, it's, it's, it's very, it's very exciting. How important for the future of innovation in HPC are partnerships like the one that Navia and Dell have? >>You wanna start? >>Sure, I would, I would just, I mean, I'm gonna be bold and brash and arrogant and say they're essential. Yeah, you don't not, you do not want to try and roll this on your own. This is, even if we just zoomed in to one little beat, little piece of the technology, the software stack that do modern, accelerated deep learning is incredibly complicated. There can be easily 20 or 30 components that all have to be the right version with the right buttons pushed, built the right way, assembled the right way, and we've got lots of technologies to help with that. But you do not want to be trying to pull that off on your own. That's just one little piece of the complexity that we talked about. And we really need, as technology providers in this space, we really need to do as much as we do to try to unlock the potential. We have to do a lot to make it usable and capable as well. >>I got a question for Anthony. All >>Right, >>So in your role, and I, and I'm, I'm sort of, I'm sort of projecting here, but I think, I think, I think your superpower personally is likely in the realm of being able to connect the dots between technology and the value that that technology holds in a variety of contexts. That's right. Whether it's business or, or whatever, say sentences. Okay. Now it's critical to have people like you to connect those dots. Today in the era of pervasive ai, how important will it be to have AI have to explain its answer? In other words, words, should I trust the information the AI is giving me? If I am a decision maker, should I just trust it on face value? Or am I going to want a demand of the AI kind of what you deliver today, which is No, no, no, no, no, no. You need to explain this to me. How did you arrive at that conclusion, right? How important will that be for people to move forward and trust the results? We can all say, oh hey, just trust us. Hey, it's ai, it's great, it's got Invidia, you know, Invidia acceleration and it's Dell. You can trust us, but come on. So many variables in the background. It's >>An interesting one. And explainability is a big function of ai. People want to know how the black box works, right? Because I don't know if you have an AI engine that's looking for potential maladies in an X-ray, but it misses it. Do you sue the hospital, the doctor or the software company, right? And so that accountability element is huge. I think as we progress and we trust it to be part of our everyday decision making, it's as simply as a recommendation engine. It isn't actually doing all of the decisions. It's supporting us. We still have, after decades of advanced technology algorithms that have been proven, we can't predict what the market price of any object is gonna be tomorrow. And you know why? You know why human beings, we are so unpredictable. How we feel in the moment is radically different. And whereas we can extrapolate for a population to an individual choice, we can't do that. So humans and computers will not be separated. It's a, it's a joint partnership. But I wanna get back to your point, and I think this is very fundamental to the philosophy of both companies. Yeah, it's about a community. It's always about the people sharing ideas, getting the best. And anytime you have a center of excellence and algorithm that works for sales forecasting may actually be really interesting for churn analysis to make sure the employees or students don't leave the institution. So it's that community of interest that I think is unparalleled at other conferences. This is the place where a lot of that happens. >>I totally agree with that. We felt that on the show. I think that's a beautiful note to close on. Anthony, Bob, thank you so much for being here. I'm sure everyone feels more educated and perhaps more at peace with the chaos. David, thanks for sitting next to me asking the best questions of any host on the cube. And thank you all for being a part of our community. Speaking of community here on the cube, we're alive from Dallas, Texas. It's super computing all week. My name is Savannah Peterson and I'm grateful you're here. >>So I.

(upbeat music) (logo swooshing) >> Good morning and welcome back to Dallas, ladies and gentlemen, we are here with theCUBE Live from Supercomputing 2022. David, my cohost, how are you doing? Exciting, day two, feeling good? >> Very exciting. Ready to start off the day. >> Very excited. We have two fascinating guests joining us to kick us off. Please welcome Pete and Armando. Gentlemen, thank you for being here with us. >> Thank you for having us. >> Thank you for having us. >> I'm excited that you're starting off the day because we've been hearing a lot of rumors about Ethernet as the fabric for HPC, but we really haven't done a deep dive yet during the show. You all seem all in on Ethernet. Tell us about that. Armando, why don't you start? >> Yeah, I mean, when you look at Ethernet, customers are asking for flexibility and choice. So when you look at HPC, InfiniBand's always been around, right? But when you look at where Ethernet's coming in, it's really our commercial in their enterprise customers. And not everybody wants to be in the top 500, what they want to do is improve their job time and improve their latency over the network. And when you look at Ethernet, you kind of look at the sweet spot between 8, 12, 16, 32 nodes, that's a perfect fit for Ethernet in that space and those types of jobs. >> I love that. Pete, you want to elaborate? >> Yeah, sure. I mean, I think one of the biggest things you find with Ethernet for HPC is that, if you look at where the different technologies have gone over time, you've had old technologies like, ATM, Sonic, Fifty, and pretty much everything is now kind of converged toward Ethernet. I mean, there's still some technologies such as InfiniBand, Omni-Path, that are out there. But basically, they're single source at this point. So what you see is that there is a huge ecosystem behind Ethernet. And you see that also the fact that Ethernet is used in the rest of the enterprise, is used in the cloud data centers, that is very easy to integrate HPC based systems into those systems. So as you move HPC out of academia into enterprise, into cloud service providers, it's much easier to integrate it with the same technology you're already using in those data centers, in those networks. >> So what's the state of the art for Ethernet right now? What's the leading edge? what's shipping now and what's in the near future? You're with Broadcom, you guys designed this stuff. >> Pete: Yeah. >> Savannah: Right. >> Yeah, so leading edge right now, got a couple things-- >> Savannah: We love good stage prop here on the theCUBE. >> Yeah, so this is Tomahawk 4. So this is what is in production, it's shipping in large data centers worldwide. We started sampling this in 2019, started going into data centers in 2020. And this is 25.6 terabytes per second. >> David: Okay. >> Which matches any other technology out there. Like if you look at say, InfinBand, highest they have right now that's just starting to get into production is 25.6 T. So state of the art right now is what we introduced, We announced this in August, This is Tomahawk 5, so this is 51.2 terabytes per second. So double the bandwidth, out of any other technology that's out there. And the important thing about networking technology is when you double the bandwidth, you don't just double the efficiency, actually, winds up being a factor of six efficiency. >> Savannah: Wow. >> 'Cause if you want, I can go into that, but... >> Why not? >> Well, what I want to know, please tell me that in your labs, you have a poster on the wall that says T five, with some like Terminator kind of character. (all laughs) 'Cause that would be cool. If it's not true, just don't say anything. I'll just... >> Pete: This can actually shift into a terminator. >> Well, so this is from a switching perspective. >> Yeah. >> When we talk about the end nodes, when we talk about creating a fabric, what's the latest in terms of, well, the nicks that are going in there, what speed are we talking about today? >> So as far as 30 speeds, it tends to be 50 gigabits per second. >> David: Okay. >> Moving to a hundred gig PAM-4. >> David: Okay. >> And we do see a lot of nicks in the 200 gig Ethernet port speed. So that would be four lanes, 50 gig. But we do see that advancing to 400 gig fairly soon, 800 gig in the future. But say state of the art right now, we're seeing for the end node tends to be 200 gig E based on 50 gig PAM-4. >> Wow. >> Yeah, that's crazy. >> Yeah, that is great. My mind is act actively blown. I want to circle back to something that you brought up a second ago, which I think is really astute. When you talked about HPC moving from academia into enterprise, you're both seeing this happen, where do you think we are on the adoption curve and sort of in that cycle? Armando, do you want to go? >> Yeah, well, if you look at the market research, they're actually telling you it's 50/50 now. So Ethernet is at the level of 50%, InfinBand's at 50%, right? >> Savannah: Interesting. >> Yeah, and so what's interesting to us, customers are coming to us and say, hey, we want to see flexibility and choice and, hey, let's look at Ethernet and let's look at InfiniBand. But what is interesting about this is that we're working with Broadcom, we have their chips in our lab, we their have switches in our lab. And really what we're trying to do is make it easy to simple and configure the network for essentially MPI. And so the goal here with our validated designs is really to simplify this. So if you have a customer that, hey, I've been InfiniBand but now I want to go Ethernet, there's going to be some learning curves there. And so what we want to do is really simplify that so that we can make it easy to install, get the cluster up and running and they can actually get some value out the cluster. >> Yeah, Pete, talk about that partnership. what does that look like? I mean, are you working with Dell before the T six comes out? Or you just say what would be cool is we'll put this in the T six? >> No, we've had a very long partnership both on the hardware and the software side. Dell's been an early adopter of our silicon. We've worked very closely on SI and Sonic on the operating system, and they provide very valuable feedback for us on our roadmap. So before we put out a new chip, and we have actually three different product lines within the switching group, within Broadcom, we've then gotten very valuable feedback on the hardware and on the APIs, on the operating system that goes on top of those chips. So that way when it comes to market, Dell can take it and deliver the exact features that they have in the current generation to their customers to have that continuity. And also they give us feedback on the next gen features they'd like to see again, in both the hardware and the software. >> So I'm fascinated by... I always like to know like what, yeah, exactly. Look, you start talking about the largest supercomputers, most powerful supercomputers that exist today, and you start looking at the specs and there might be two million CPUs, 2 million CPU cores. Exoflap of performance. What are the outward limits of T five in switches, building out a fabric, what does that look like? What are the increments in terms of how many... And I know it's a depends answer, but how many nodes can you support in a scale out cluster before you need another switch? Or what does that increment of scale look like today? >> Yeah, so this is 51.2 terabytes per second. Where we see the most common implementation based on this would be with 400 gig Ethernet ports. >> David: Okay. >> So that would be 128, 400 gig E ports connected to one chip. Now, if you went to 200 gig, which is kind of the state of the art for the nicks, you can have double that. So in a single hop, you can have 256 end nodes connected through one switch. >> Okay, so this T five, that thing right there, (all laughing) inside a sheet metal box, obviously you've got a bunch of ports coming out of that. So what's the form factor look like for where that T five sits? Is there just one in a chassis or you have.. What does that look like? >> It tends to be pizza boxes these days. What you've seen overall is that the industry's moved away from chassis for these high end systems more towardS pizza boxes. And you can have composable systems where, in the past you would have line cards, either the fabric cards that the line cards are plug into or interfaced to. These days what tends to happen is you'd have a pizza box and if you wanted to build up like a virtual chassis, what you would do is use one of those pizza boxes as the fabric card, one of them as the line card. >> David: Okay. >> So what we see, the most common form factor for this is they tend to be two, I'd say for North America, most common would be a 2RU, with 64 OSFP ports. And often each of those OSFP, which is an 800 gig E or 800 gig port, we've broken out into two 400 gig ports. >> So yeah, in 2RU, and this is all air cooled, in 2RU, you've got 51.2 T. We do see some cases where customers would like to have different optics and they'll actually deploy 4RU, just so that way they have the phase-space density. So they can plug in 128, say QSFP 112. But yeah, it really depends on which optics, if you want to have DAK connectivity combined with optics. But those are the two most common form factors. >> And Armando, Ethernet isn't necessarily Ethernet in the sense that many protocols can be run over it. >> Right. >> I think I have a projector at home that's actually using Ethernet physical connections. But, so what are we talking about here in terms of the actual protocol that's running over this? Is this exactly the same as what you think of as data center Ethernet, or is this RDMA over converged Ethernet? What Are we talking about? >> Yeah, so RDMA, right? So when you look at running, essentially HPC workloads, you have the NPI protocol, so message passing interface, right? And so what you need to do is you may need to make sure that that NPI message passing interface runs efficiently on Ethernet. And so this is why we want to test and validate all these different things to make sure that that protocol runs really, really fast on Ethernet. If you look at NPIs officially, built to, hey, it was designed to run on InfiniBand but now what you see with Broadcom, with the great work they're doing, now we can make that work on Ethernet and get same performance, so that's huge for customers. >> Both of you get to see a lot of different types of customers. I kind of feel like you're a little bit of a looking into the crystal ball type because you essentially get to see the future knowing what people are trying to achieve moving forward. Talk to us about the future of Ethernet in HPC in terms of AI and ML, where do you think we're going to be next year or 10 years from now? >> You want to go first or you want me to go first? >> I can start, yeah. >> Savannah: Pete feels ready. >> So I mean, what I see, I mean, Ethernet, what we've seen is that as far as on, starting off of the switch side, is that we've consistently doubled the bandwidth every 18 to 24 months. >> That's impressive. >> Pete: Yeah. >> Nicely done, casual, humble brag there. That was great, I love that. I'm here for you. >> I mean, I think that's one of the benefits of Ethernet, is the ecosystem, is the trajectory the roadmap we've had, I mean, you don't see that in any of the networking technology. >> David: More who? (all laughing) >> So I see that, that trajectory is going to continue as far as the switches doubling in bandwidth, I think that they're evolving protocols, especially again, as you're moving away from academia into the enterprise, into cloud data centers, you need to have a combination of protocols. So you'll probably focus still on RDMA, for the supercomputing, the AI/ML workloads. But we do see that as you have a mix of the applications running on these end nodes, maybe they're interfacing to the CPUs for some processing, you might use a different mix of protocols. So I'd say it's going to be doubling a bandwidth over time, evolution of the protocols. I mean, I expect that Rocky is probably going to evolve over time depending on the AI/ML and the HPC workloads. I think also there's a big change coming as far as the physical connectivity within the data center. Like one thing we've been focusing on is co-packed optics. So right now, this chip is, all the balls in the back here, there's electrical connections. >> How many are there, by the way? 9,000 plus on the back of that-- >> 9,352. >> I love how specific it is. It's brilliant. >> Yeah, so right now, all the SERDES, all the signals are coming out electrically based, but we've actually shown, we actually we have a version of Tomahawk 4 at 25.6 T that has co-packed optics. So instead of having electrical output, you actually have optics directly out of the package. And if you look at, we'll have a version of Tomahawk 5. >> Nice. >> Where it's actually even a smaller form factor than this, where instead of having the electrical output from the bottom, you actually have fibers that plug directly into the sides. >> Wow. Cool. >> So I see there's the bandwidth, there's radix's increasing, protocols, different physical connectivity. So I think there's a lot of things throughout, and the protocol stack's also evolving. So a lot of excitement, a lot of new technology coming to bear. >> Okay, You just threw a carrot down the rabbit hole. I'm only going to chase this one, okay? >> Peter: All right. >> So I think of individual discreet physical connections to the back of those balls. >> Yeah. >> So if there's 9,000, fill in the blank, that's how many connections there are. How do you do that many optical connections? What's the mapping there? What does that look like? >> So what we've announced for Tomahawk 5 is it would have FR4 optics coming out. So you'd actually have 512 fiber pairs coming out. So basically on all four sides, you'd have these fiber ribbons that come in and connect. There's actually fibers coming out of the sides there. We wind up having, actually, I think in this case, we would actually have 512 channels and it would wind up being on 128 actual fiber pairs because-- >> It's miraculous, essentially. >> Savannah: I know. >> Yeah. So a lot of people are going to be looking at this and thinking in terms of InfiniBand versus Ethernet, I think you've highlighted some of the benefits of specifically running Ethernet moving forward as HPC which sort of just trails slightly behind super computing as we define it, becomes more pervasive AI/ML. What are some of the other things that maybe people might not immediately think about when they think about the advantages of running Ethernet in that environment? Is it about connecting the HPC part of their business into the rest of it? What are the advantages? >> Yeah, I mean, that's a big thing. I think, and one of the biggest things that Ethernet has again, is that the data centers, the networks within enterprises, within clouds right now are run on Ethernet. So now, if you want to add services for your customers, the easiest thing for you to do is the drop in clusters that are connected with the same networking technology. So I think one of the biggest things there is that if you look at what's happening with some of the other proprietary technologies, I mean, in some cases they'll have two different types of networking technologies before they interface to Ethernet. So now you've got to train your technicians, you train your assist admins on two different network technologies. You need to have all the debug technology, all the interconnect for that. So here, the easiest thing is you can use Ethernet, it's going to give you the same performance and actually, in some cases, we've seen better performance than we've seen with Omni-Path, better than in InfiniBand. >> That's awesome. Armando, we didn't get to you, so I want to make sure we get your future hot take. Where do you see the future of Ethernet here in HPC? >> Well, Pete hit on a big thing is bandwidth, right? So when you look at, train a model, okay? So when you go and train a model in AI, you need to have a lot of data in order to train that model, right? So what you do is essentially, you build a model, you choose whatever neural network you want to utilize. But if you don't have a good data set that's trained over that model, you can't essentially train the model. So if you have bandwidth, you want big pipes because you have to move that data set from the storage to the CPU. And essentially, if you're going to do it maybe on CPU only, but if you do it on accelerators, well, guess what? You need a big pipe in order to get all that data through. And here's the deal, the bigger the pipe you have, the more data, the faster you can train that model. So the faster you can train that model, guess what? The faster you get to some new insight, maybe it's a new competitive advantage, maybe it's some new way you design a product, but that's a benefit of speed, you want faster, faster, faster. >> It's all about making it faster and easier-- for the users. >> Armando: It is. >> I love that. Last question for you, Pete, just because you've said Tomahawk seven times, and I'm thinking we're in Texas, stakes, there's a lot going on with that. >> Making me hungry. >> I know, exactly. I'm sitting out here thinking, man, I did not have big enough breakfast. How did you come up with the name Tomahawk? >> So Tomahawk, I think it just came from a list. So we have a tried end product line. >> Savannah: Ah, yes. >> Which is a missile product line. And Tomahawk is being kind of like the bigger and batter missile, so. >> Savannah: Love this. Yeah, I mean-- >> So do you like your engineers? You get to name it. >> Had to ask. >> It's collaborative. >> Okay. >> We want to make sure everyone's in sync with it. >> So just it's not the Aquaman tried. >> Right. >> It's the steak Tomahawk. I think we're good now. >> Now that we've cleared that-- >> Now we've cleared that up. >> Armando, Pete, it was really nice to have both you. Thank you for teaching us about the future of Ethernet and HCP. David Nicholson, always a pleasure to share the stage with you. And thank you all for tuning in to theCUBE live from Dallas. We're here talking all things HPC and supercomputing all day long. We hope you'll continue to tune in. My name's Savannah Peterson, thanks for joining us. (soft music)

>> Hello everyone and welcome back to theCUBE, where we're live from Dallas, Texas here at Super computing 2022. I am joined by my cohost David Nicholson. Thank you so much for being here with me and putting up with my trashy jokes all day. >> David: Thanks for having me. >> Yeah. Yes, we are going to be talking about AI this morning and I'm very excited that our guest has has set the stage for us here quite well. Please welcome Andrea Booker. Andrea, thank you so much for being here with us. >> Absolutely. Really excited to be here. >> Savannah: How's your show going so far? >> It's been really cool. I think being able to actually see people in person but also be able to see the latest technologies and and have the live dialogue that connects us in a different way than we have been able to virtually. >> Savannah: Oh yeah. No, it's all, it's all about that human connection and that it is driving towards our first question. So as we were just chit chatting. You said you are excited about making AI real and humanizing that. >> Andrea: Absolutely. >> What does that mean to you? >> So I think when it comes down to artificial intelligence it means so many different things to different people. >> Savannah: Absolutely. >> I was talking to my father the other day for context, he's in his late seventies, right. And I'm like, oh, artificial intelligence, this or that, and he is like, machines taking over the world. Right. >> Savannah: Very much the dark side. >> A little bit Terminator. And I'm like, well, not so much. So that was a fun discussion. And then you flip it to the other side and I'm talking to my 11 year old daughter and she's like, Alexa make sure you know my song preferences. Right. And that's the other very real way in which it's kind of impacting our lives. >> Savannah: Yeah. >> Right. There's so many different use cases that I don't think everyone understands how that resonates. Right. It's the simple things from, you know, recommend Jason Engines when you're on Amazon and it suggests just a little bit more. >> Oh yeah. >> I'm a little bit to you that one, right. To stuff that's more impactful in regards to getting faster diagnoses from your doctors. Right. Such peace of mind being able to actually hear that answer faster know how to go tackle something. >> Savannah: Great point, yeah. >> You know, and, and you know, what's even more interesting is from a business perspective, you know the projections are over the next five years about 90% of customers are going to use AI applications in in some fashion, right. >> Savannah: Wow. >> And the reason why that's interesting is because if you look at it today, only about 15% of of them are doing so. Right. So we're early. So when we're talking growth and the opportunity, it's, it's amazing. >> Yeah. I can, I can imagine. So when you're talking to customers, what are are they excited? Are they nervous? Are you educating them on how to apply Dell technology to advance their AI? Where are they off at because we're so early? >> Yeah well, I think they're figuring it out what it means to them, right? >> Yeah. Because there's so many different customer applications of it, right? You have those in which, you know, are on on the highest end in which that our new XE products are targeting that when they think of it. You know, I I, I like to break it down in this fashion in which artificial intelligence can actually save human lives, right? And this is those extreme workloads that I'm talking about. We actually can develop a Covid vaccine faster, right. Pandemic tracking, you know with global warming that's going on. And we have these extreme weather events with hurricanes and tsunamis and all these things to be able to get advanced notice to people to evacuate, to move. I mean, that's a pretty profound thing. And it is, you know so it could be used in that way to save lives, right? >> Absolutely. >> Which is it's the natural outgrowth of the speeds and feeds discussions that we might have internally. It's, it's like, oh, oh, speed doubled. Okay. Didn't it double last year? Yeah. Doubled last year too. So it's four x now. What does that mean to your point? >> Andrea: Yeah, yeah. >> Savannah: Yeah. >> Being able to deliver faster insight insights that are meaningful within a timeframe when otherwise they wouldn't be meaningful. >> Andrea: Yeah. >> If I tell you, within a two month window whether it's going to rain this weekend, that doesn't help you. In hindsight, we did the calculation and we figured out it's going to be 40 degrees at night last Thursday >> Knowing it was going to completely freeze here in Dallas to our definition in Texas but we prepare better to back to bring clothes. >> We were talking to NASA about that yesterday too. I mean, I think it's, it's must be fascinating for you to see your technology deployed in so many of these different use cases as well. >> Andrea: Absolutely, absolutely. >> It's got to be a part of one of the more >> Andrea: Not all of them are extreme, right? >> Savannah: Yeah. >> There's also examples of, you know natural language processing and what it does for us you know, the fact that it can break down communication barriers because we're global, right? We're all in a global environment. So if you think about conference calls in which we can actually clearly understand each other and what the intent is, and the messaging brings us closer in different ways as well. Which, which is huge, right? You don't want things lost in translation, right? So it, it helps on so many fronts. >> You're familiar with the touring test idea of, of, you know whether or not, you know, the test is if you can't discern within a certain number of questions that you're interacting with an AI versus a real human, then it passes the touring test. I think there should be a natural language processing test where basically I say, fine >> Andrea: You see if people was mad or not. >> You tell me, you tell me. >> I love this idea, David. >> You know? >> Yeah. This is great. >> Okay. AI lady, >> You tell me what I meant. >> Yeah, am I actually okay? >> How far from, that's silly example but how far do you think we are from that? I mean, what, what do you seeing out there in terms of things where you're kind of like, whoa, they did this with technology I'm responsible for, that was impressive. Or have you heard of things that are on the horizon that, you know, again, you, you know they're the big, they're the big issues. >> Yeah. >> But any, anything kind of interesting and little >> I think we're seeing it perfected and tweaked, right? >> Yeah. >> You know, I think going back to my daughter it goes from her screaming at Alexa 'cause she did hear her right the first time to now, oh she understands and modifies, right? Because we're constantly tweaking that technology to have a better experience with it. And it's a continuum, right? The voice to text capabilities, right. You know, I I'd say early on it got most of those words, right Right now it's, it's getting pretty dialed in. Right. >> Savannah: That's a great example. >> So, you know, little things, little things. >> Yeah. I think I, I love the, the this thought of your daughter as the example of training AI. What, what sort of, you get to look into the future quite a bit, I'm sure with your role. >> Andrea: Absolutely. >> Where, what is she going to be controlling next? >> The world. >> The world. >> No, I mean if you think about it just from a generational front, you know technology when I was her age versus what she's experiencing, she lives and breathes it. I mean, that's the generational change. So as these are coming out, you have new folks growing with it that it's so natural that they are so open to adopting it in their common everyday behaviors. Right? >> Savannah: Yeah. >> But they'd they never, over time they learn, oh well how it got there is 'cause of everything we're doing now, right. >> Savannah: Yeah. >> You know, one, one fun example, you know as my dad was like machines are taking over the world is not, not quite right. Even if when you look at manufacturing, there's a difference in using AI to go build a digital simulation of a factory to be able to optimize it and design it right before you're laying the foundation that saves cost, time and money. That's not taking people's jobs in that extreme event. >> Right. >> It's really optimizing for faster outcomes and, and and helping our customers get there which is better for everyone. >> Savannah: Yeah and safer too. I mean, using the factory example, >> Totally safer. >> You're able to model out what a workplace injury might be or what could happen. Or even the ergonomics of how people are using. >> Andrea: Yeah, should it be higher so they don't have to bend over? Right. >> Exactly. >> There's so many fantastic positive ways. >> Yeah so, so for your dad, you know, I mean it's going to help us, it's going to make, it's going to take away when I. Well I'm curious what you think, David when I think about AI, I think it's going to take out a lot of the boring things in life that, that we don't like >> Andrea: Absolutely. Doing. The monotony and the repetitive and let us optimize our creative selves maybe. >> However, some of the boring things are people's jobs. So, so it is, it it it will, it will it will push a transition in our economy in the global economy, in my opinion. That would be painful for some, for some period of time. But overall beneficial, >> Savannah: Yes. But definitely as you know, definitely there will be there will be people who will be disrupted and, you know. >> Savannah: Tech's always kind of done that. >> We No, but we need, I, I think we need to make sure that the digital divide doesn't get so wide that you know that, that people might not be negative, negatively affected. And, but, but I know that like organizations like Dell I believe what you actually see is, >> Andrea: Yeah. >> No, it's, it's elevating people. It's actually taking away >> Andrea: Easier. >> Yeah. It's, it's, it's allowing people to spend their focus on things that are higher level, more interesting tasks. >> Absolutely. >> David: So a net, A net good. But definitely some people disrupted. >> Yes. >> I feel, I feel disrupted. >> I was going to say, are, are we speaking for a friend or for ourselves here today on stage? >> I'm tired of software updates. So maybe if you could, if you could just standardize. So AI and ML. >> Andrea: Yeah. >> People talk about machine learning and, and, and and artificial intelligence. How would you differentiate the two? >> Savannah: Good question. >> It it, it's, it's just the different applications and the different workloads of it, right? Because you actually have artificial intelligence you have machine learning in which the learn it's learning from itself. And then you have like the deep learning in which it's diving deeper in in its execution and, and modeling. And it really depends on the workload applications as long as well as how large the data set is that's feeding into it for those applications. Right. And that really leads into the, we have to make sure we have the versatility in our offerings to be able to meet every dimension of that. Right. You know our XE products that we announced are really targeted for that, those extreme AI HPC workloads. Right. Versus we also have our entire portfolio products that we make sure we have GPU diversity throughout for the other applications that may be more edge centric or telco centric, right? Because AI isn't just these extreme situations it's also at the edge. It's in the cloud, it's in the data center, right? So we want to make sure we have, you know versatility in our offerings and we're really meeting customers where they're at in regards to the implementation and and the AI workloads that they have. >> Savannah: Let's dig in a little bit there. So what should customers expect with the next generation acceleration trends that Dell's addressing in your team? You had three exciting product announcements here >> Andrea: We did, we did. >> Which is very exciting. So you can talk about that a little bit and give us a little peek. >> Sure. So, you know, for, for the most extreme applications we have the XE portfolio that we built upon, right? We already had the XC 85 45 and we've expanded that out in a couple ways. The first of which is our very first XC 96 88 way offering in which we have Nvidia's H 100 as well as 8 100. 'Cause we want choice, right? A choice between performance, power, what really are your needs? >> Savannah: Is that the first time you've combined? >> Andrea: It's the first time we've had an eight way offering. >> Yeah. >> Andrea: But we did so mindful that the technology is emerging so much from a thermal perspective as well as a price and and other influencers that we wanted that choice baked into our next generation of product as we entered the space. >> Savannah: Yeah, yeah. >> The other two products we have were both in the four way SXM and OAM implementation and we really focus on diversifying and not only from vendor partnerships, right. The XC 96 40 is based off Intel Status Center max. We have the XE 86 40 that is going to be in or Nvidia's NB length, their latest H 100. But the key differentiator is we have air cold and we have liquid cold, right? So depending on where you are from that data center journey, I mean, I think one of the common themes you've heard is thermals are going up, performance is going up, TBPs are going up power, right? >> Savannah: Yeah. >> So how do we kind of meet in the middle to be able to accommodate for that? >> Savannah: I think it's incredible how many different types of customers you're able to accommodate. I mean, it's really impressive. I feel lucky we've gotten to see these products you're describing. They're here on the show floor. There's millions of dollars of hardware literally sitting in your booth. >> Andrea: Oh yes. >> Which is casual only >> Pies for you. Yeah. >> Yeah. We were, we were chatting over there yesterday and, and oh, which, which, you know which one of these is more expensive? And the response was, they're both expensive. It was like, okay perfect >> But assume the big one is more. >> David: You mentioned, you mentioned thermals. One of the things I've been fascinated by walking around is all of the different liquid cooling solutions. >> Andrea: Yeah. >> And it's almost hysterical. You look, you look inside, it looks like something from it's like, what is, what is this a radiator system for a 19th century building? >> Savannah: Super industrial? >> Because it looks like Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly, exactly. It's exactly the way to describe it. But just the idea that you're pumping all of this liquid over this, over this very, very valuable circuitry. A lot of the pitches have to do with, you know this is how we prevent disasters from happening based on the cooling methods. >> Savannah: Quite literally >> How, I mean, you look at the power requirements of a single rack in a data center, and it's staggering. We've talked about this a lot. >> Savannah: Yeah. >> People who aren't kind of EV you know electric vehicle nerds don't appreciate just how much power 90 kilowatts of power is for an individual rack and how much heat that can generate. >> Andrea: Absolutely. >> So Dell's, Dell's view on this is air cooled water cooled figure it out fit for for function. >> Andrea: Optionality, optionality, right? Because our customers are a complete diverse set, right? You have those in which they're in a data center 10 to 15 kilowatt racks, right? You're not going to plum a liquid cool power hungry or air power hungry thing in there, right? You might get one of these systems in, in that kind of rack you know, architecture, but then you have the middle ground the 50 to 60 is a little bit of choice. And then the super extreme, that's where liquid cooling makes sense to really get optimized and have the best density and, and the most servers in that solution. So that's why it really depends, and that's why we're taking that approach of diversity, of not only vendors and, and choice but also implementation and ways to be able to address that. >> So I think, again, again, I'm, you know electric vehicle nerd. >> Yeah. >> It's hysterical when you, when you mention a 15 kilowatt rack at kind of flippantly, people don't realize that's way more power than the average house is consuming. >> Andrea: Yeah, yeah >> So it's like your entire house is likely more like five kilowatts on a given day, you know, air conditioning. >> Andrea: Maybe you have still have solar panel. >> In Austin, I'm sorry >> California, Austin >> But, but, but yeah, it's, it's staggering amounts of power staggering amounts of heat. There are very real problems that you guys are are solving for to drive all of these top line value >> Andrea: Yeah. >> Propositions. It's super interesting. >> Savannah: It is super interesting. All right, Andrea, last question. >> Yes. Yes. >> Dell has been lucky to have you for the last decade. What is the most exciting part about you for the next decade of your Dell career given the exciting stuff that you get to work on. >> I think, you know, really working on what's coming our way and working with my team on that is is just amazing. You know, I can't say it enough from a Dell perspective I have the best team. I work with the most, the smartest people which creates such a fun environment, right? So then when we're looking at all this optionality and and the different technologies and, and, and you know partners we work with, you know, it's that coming together and figuring out what's that best solution and then bringing our customers along that journey. That kind of makes it fun dynamic that over the next 10 years, I think you're going to see fantastic things. >> David: So I, before, before we close, I have to say that's awesome because this event is also a recruiting event where some of these really really smarts students that are surrounding us. There were some sirens going off. They're having competitions back here. >> Savannah: Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> So, so when they hear that. >> Andrea: Where you want to be. >> David: That's exactly right. That's exactly right. >> Savannah: Well played. >> David: That's exactly right. >> Savannah: Well played. >> Have fun. Come on over. >> Well, you've certainly proven that to us. Andrea, thank you so much for being with us This was such a treat. David Nicholson, thank you for being here with me and thank you for tuning in to theCUBE a lot from Dallas, Texas. We are all things HPC and super computing this week. My name's Savannah Peterson and we'll see you soon. >> Andrea: Awesome.

>>You can put this in a conference. >>Good morning and welcome back to Dallas. Ladies and gentlemen, we are here with the cube Live from, from Supercomputing 2022. David, my cohost, how you doing? Exciting. Day two. Feeling good. >>Very exciting. Ready to start off the >>Day. Very excited. We have two fascinating guests joining us to kick us off. Please welcome Pete and Armando. Gentlemen, thank you for being here with us. >>Having us, >>For having us. I'm excited that you're starting off the day because we've been hearing a lot of rumors about ethernet as the fabric for hpc, but we really haven't done a deep dive yet during the show. Y'all seem all in on ethernet. Tell us about that. Armando, why don't you start? >>Yeah. I mean, when you look at ethernet, customers are asking for flexibility and choice. So when you look at HPC and you know, infinite band's always been around, right? But when you look at where Ethernet's coming in, it's really our commercial and their enterprise customers. And not everybody wants to be in the top 500. What they want to do is improve their job time and improve their latency over the network. And when you look at ethernet, you kinda look at the sweet spot between 8, 12, 16, 32 nodes. That's a perfect fit for ethernet and that space and, and those types of jobs. >>I love that. Pete, you wanna elaborate? Yeah, yeah, >>Yeah, sure. I mean, I think, you know, one of the biggest things you find with internet for HPC is that, you know, if you look at where the different technologies have gone over time, you know, you've had old technologies like, you know, atm, Sonic, fitty, you know, and pretty much everything is now kind of converged toward ethernet. I mean, there's still some technologies such as, you know, InfiniBand, omnipath that are out there. Yeah. But basically there's single source at this point. So, you know, what you see is that there is a huge ecosystem behind ethernet. And you see that also, the fact that ethernet is used in the rest of the enterprise is using the cloud data centers that is very easy to integrate HPC based systems into those systems. So as you move HPC out of academia, you know, into, you know, into enterprise, into cloud service providers is much easier to integrate it with the same technology you're already using in those data centers, in those networks. >>So, so what's this, what is, what's the state of the art for ethernet right now? What, you know, what's, what's the leading edge, what's shipping now and what and what's in the near future? You, you were with Broadcom, you guys design this stuff. >>Yeah, yeah. Right. Yeah. So leading edge right now, I got a couple, you know, Wes stage >>Trough here on the cube. Yeah. >>So this is Tomahawk four. So this is what is in production is shipping in large data centers worldwide. We started sampling this in 2019, started going into data centers in 2020. And this is 25.6 tets per second. Okay. Which matches any other technology out there. Like if you look at say, infin band, highest they have right now that's just starting to get into production is 25 point sixt. So state of the art right now is what we introduced. We announced this in August. This is Tomahawk five. So this is 51.2 terabytes per second. So double the bandwidth have, you know, any other technology that's out there. And the important thing about networking technology is when you double the bandwidth, you don't just double the efficiency, it's actually winds up being a factor of six efficiency. Wow. Cause if you want, I can go into that, but why >>Not? Well, I, what I wanna know, please tell me that in your labs you have a poster on the wall that says T five with, with some like Terminator kind of character. Cause that would be cool if it's not true. Don't just don't say anything. I just want, I can actually shift visual >>It into a terminator. So. >>Well, but so what, what are the, what are the, so this is, this is from a switching perspective. Yeah. When we talk about the end nodes, when we talk about creating a fabric, what, what's, what's the latest in terms of, well, the kns that are, that are going in there, what's, what speed are we talking about today? >>So as far as 30 speeds, it tends to be 50 gigabits per second. Okay. Moving to a hundred gig pan four. Okay. And we do see a lot of Knicks in the 200 gig ethernet port speed. So that would be, you know, four lanes, 50 gig. But we do see that advancing to 400 gig fairly soon. 800 gig in the future. But say state of the art right now, we're seeing for the end nodes tends to be 200 gig E based on 50 gig pan four. Wow. >>Yeah. That's crazy. Yeah, >>That is, that is great. My mind is act actively blown. I wanna circle back to something that you brought up a second ago, which I think is really astute. When you talked about HPC moving from academia into enterprise, you're both seeing this happen. Where do you think we are on the adoption curve and sort of in that cycle? Armand, do you wanna go? >>Yeah, yeah. Well, if you look at the market research, they're actually telling it's 50 50 now. So ethernet is at the level of 50%. InfiniBand is at 50%. Right. Interesting. Yeah. And so what's interesting to us, customers are coming to us and say, Hey, we want to see, you know, flexibility and choice and hey, let's look at ethernet and let's look at InfiniBand. But what is interesting about this is that we're working with Broadcom, we have their chips in our lab, we have our switches in our lab. And really what we're trying to do is make it easy to simple and configure the network for essentially mpi. And so the goal here with our validated designs is really to simplify this. So if you have a customer that, Hey, I've been in fbe, but now I want to go ethernet, you know, there's gonna be some learning curves there. And so what we wanna do is really simplify that so that we can make it easy to install, get the cluster up and running, and they can actually get some value out of the cluster. >>Yeah. Peter, what, talk about that partnership. What, what, what does that look like? Is it, is it, I mean, are you, you working with Dell before the, you know, before the T six comes out? Or you just say, you know, what would be cool, what would be cool is we'll put this in the T six? >>No, we've had a very long partnership both on the hardware and the software side. You know, Dell has been an early adopter of our silicon. We've worked very closely on SI and Sonic on the operating system, you know, and they provide very valuable feedback for us on our roadmap. So before we put out a new chip, and we have actually three different product lines within the switching group within Broadcom, we've then gotten, you know, very valuable feedback on the hardware and on the APIs, on the operating system that goes on top of those chips. So that way when it comes to market, you know, Dell can take it and, you know, deliver the exact features that they have in the current generation to their customers to have that continuity. And also they give us feedback on the next gen features they'd like to see again in both the hardware and the software. >>So, so I, I'm, I'm just, I'm fascinated by, I I, I always like to know kind like what Yeah, exactly. Exactly right. Look, you, you start talking about the largest super supercomputers, most powerful supercomputers that exist today, and you start looking at the specs and there might be 2 million CPUs, 2 million CPU cores, yeah. Ex alop of, of, of, of performance. What are the, what are the outward limits of T five in switches, building out a fabric, what does that look like? What are the, what are the increments in terms of how many, and I know it, I know it's a depends answer, but, but, but how many nodes can you support in a, in a, in a scale out cluster before you need another switch? What does that increment of scale look like today? >>Yeah, so I think, so this is 51.2 terras per second. What we see the most common implementation based on this would be with 400 gig ethernet ports. Okay. So that would be 128, you know, 400 giggi ports connected to, to one chip. Okay. Now, if you went to 200 gig, which is kind of the state of the art for the Nicks, you can have double that. Okay. So, you know, in a single hop you can have 256 end nodes connected through one switch. >>So, okay, so this T five, that thing right there inside a sheet metal box, obviously you've got a bunch of ports coming out of that. So what is, what does that, what's the form factor look like for that, for where that T five sits? Is there just one in a chassis or you have, what does that look >>Like? It tends to be pizza boxes these days. Okay. What you've seen overall is that the industry's moved away from chassis for these high end systems more towards pizza, pizza boxes. And you can have composable systems where, you know, in the past you would have line cards, either the fabric cards that the line cards are plugged into or interface to these days, what tends to happen is you'd have a pizza box, and if you wanted to build up like a virtual chassis, what you would do is use one of those pizza boxes as the fabric card, one of them as the, the line card. >>Okay. >>So what we see, the most common form factor for this is they tend to be two, I'd say for North America, most common would be a two R U with 64 OSF P ports. And often each of those OSF p, which is an 800 gig e or 800 gig port, we've broken out into two 400 gig quarts. Okay. So yeah, in two r u you've got, and this is all air cooled, you know, in two re you've got 51.2 T. We do see some cases where customers would like to have different optics, and they'll actually deploy a four U just so that way they have the face place density, so they can plug in 128, say qsf P one 12. But yeah, it really depends on which optics, if you wanna have DAK connectivity combined with, with optics. But those are the two most common form factors. >>And, and Armando ethernet isn't, ethernet isn't necessarily ethernet in the sense that many protocols can be run over it. Right. I think I have a projector at home that's actually using ethernet physical connections. But what, so what are we talking about here in terms of the actual protocol that's running over this? Is this exactly the same as what you think of as data center ethernet, or, or is this, you know, RDMA over converged ethernet? What, what are >>We talking about? Yeah, so our rdma, right? So when you look at, you know, running, you know, essentially HPC workloads, you have the NPI protocol, so message passing interface, right? And so what you need to do is you may need to make sure that that NPI message passing interface runs efficiently on ethernet. And so this is why we want to test and validate all these different things to make sure that that protocol runs really, really fast on ethernet, if you look at NPI is officially, you know, built to, Hey, it was designed to run on InfiniBand, but now what you see with Broadcom and the great work they're doing now, we can make that work on ethernet and get, you know, it's same performance. So that's huge for customers. >>Both of you get to see a lot of different types of customers. I kind of feel like you're a little bit of a, a looking into the crystal ball type because you essentially get to see the future knowing what people are trying to achieve moving forward. Talk to us about the future of ethernet in hpc in terms of AI and ml. Where, where do you think we're gonna be next year or 10 years from now? >>You wanna go first or you want me to go first? I can start. >>Yeah. Pete feels ready. >>So I mean, what I see, I mean, ethernet, I mean, is what we've seen is that as far as on the starting off of the switch side, is that we've consistently doubled the bandwidth every 18 to 24 months. That's >>Impressive. >>Yeah. So nicely >>Done, casual, humble brag there. That was great. That was great. I love that. >>I'm here for you. I mean, I think that's one of the benefits of, of Ethan is like, is the ecosystem, is the trajectory, the roadmap we've had, I mean, you don't see that in any other networking technology >>More who, >>So, you know, I see that, you know, that trajectory is gonna continue as far as the switches, you know, doubling in bandwidth. I think that, you know, they're evolving protocols. You know, especially again, as you're moving away from academia into the enterprise, into cloud data centers, you need to have a combination of protocols. So you'll probably focus still on rdma, you know, for the supercomputing, the a AIML workloads. But we do see that, you know, as you have, you know, a mix of the applications running on these end nodes, maybe they're interfacing to the, the CPUs for some processing, you might use a different mix of protocols. So I'd say it's gonna be doubling a bandwidth over time evolution of the protocols. I mean, I expect that Rocky is probably gonna evolve over time depending on the a AIML and the HPC workloads. I think also there's a big change coming as far as the physical connectivity within the data center. Like one thing we've been focusing on is co-pack optics. So, you know, right now this chip is all, all the balls in the back here, there's electrical connections. How >>Many are there, by the way? 9,000 plus on the back of that >>352. >>I love how specific it is. It's brilliant. >>Yeah. So we get, so right now, you know, all the thirties, all the signals are coming out electrically based, but we've actually shown, we have this, actually, we have a version of Hawk four at 25 point sixt that has co-pack optics. So instead of having electrical output, you actually have optics directly out of the package. And if you look at, we'll have a version of Tomahawk five Nice. Where it's actually even a smaller form factor than this, where instead of having the electrical output from the bottom, you actually have fibers that plug directly into the sides. Wow. Cool. So I see, you know, there's, you know, the bandwidth, there's radis increasing protocols, different physical connectivity. So I think there's, you know, a lot of things throughout, and the protocol stack's also evolving. So, you know, a lot of excitement, a lot of new technology coming to bear. >>Okay. You just threw a carrot down the rabbit hole. I'm only gonna chase this one. Okay. >>All right. >>So I think of, I think of individual discreet physical connections to the back of those balls. Yeah. So if there's 9,000, fill in the blank, that's how many connections there are. How do you do that in many optical connections? What's, what's, what's the mapping there? What does that, what does that look like? >>So what we've announced for TAMA five is it would have fr four optics coming out. So you'd actually have, you know, 512 fiber pairs coming out. So you'd have, you know, basically on all four sides, you'd have these fiber ribbons that come in and connect. There's actually fibers coming out of the, the sides there. We wind up having, actually, I think in this case, we would actually have 512 channels and it would wind up being on 128 actual fiber pairs because >>It's, it's miraculous, essentially. It's, I know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, so, you know, a lot of people are gonna be looking at this and thinking in terms of InfiniBand versus versus ethernet. I think you've highlighted some of the benefits of specifically running ethernet moving forward as, as hpc, you know, which is sort of just trails slightly behind supercomputing as we define it, becomes more pervasive AI ml. What, what are some of the other things that maybe people might not immediately think about when they think about the advantages of running ethernet in that environment? Is it, is it connecting, is it about connecting the HPC part of their business into the rest of it? What, or what, what are the advantages? >>Yeah, I mean, that's a big thing. I think, and one of the biggest things that ethernet has again, is that, you know, the data centers, you know, the networks within enterprises within, you know, clouds right now are run on ethernet. So now if you want to add services for your customers, the easiest thing for you to do is, you know, the drop in clusters that are connected with the same networking technology, you know, so I think what, you know, one of the biggest things there is that if you look at what's happening with some of the other proprietary technologies, I mean, in some cases they'll have two different types of networking technologies before they interface to ethernet. So now you've got to train your technicians, you train your, your assist admins on two different network technologies. You need to have all the, the debug technology, all the interconnect for that. So here, the easiest thing is you can use ethernet, it's gonna give you the same performance. And actually in some cases we seen better performance than we've seen with omnipath than, you know, better than in InfiniBand. >>That's awesome. Armando, we didn't get to you, so I wanna make sure we get your future hot take. Where do you see the future of ethernet here in hpc? >>Well, Pete hit on a big thing is bandwidth, right? So when you look at train a model, okay, so when you go and train a model in ai, you need to have a lot of data in order to train that model, right? So what you do is essentially you build a model, you choose whatever neural network you wanna utilize, but if you don't have a good data set that's trained over that model, you can't essentially train the model. So if you have bandwidth, you want big pipes because you have to move that data set from the storage to the cpu. And essentially, if you're gonna do it maybe on CPU only, but if you do it on accelerators, well guess what? You need a big pipe in order to get all that data through. And here's the deal. The bigger the pipe you have, the more data, the faster you can train that model. So the faster you can train that model, guess what? The faster you get to some new insight, maybe it's a new competitive advantage. Maybe it's some new way you design a product, but that's a benefit of speed you want faster, faster, faster. >>It's all about making it faster and easier. It is for, for the users. I love that. Last question for you, Pete, just because you've said Tomahawk seven times, and I'm thinking we're in Texas Stakes, there's a lot going on with with that making >>Me hungry. >>I know exactly. I'm sitting up here thinking, man, I did not have a big enough breakfast. How do you come up with the name Tomahawk? >>So Tomahawk, I think you just came, came from a list. So we had, we have a tri end product line. Ah, a missile product line. And Tomahawk is being kinda like, you know, the bigger and batter missile, so, oh, okay. >>Love this. Yeah, I, well, I >>Mean, so you let your engineers, you get to name it >>Had to ask. It's >>Collaborative. Oh good. I wanna make sure everyone's in sync with it. >>So just so we, it's not the Aquaman tried. Right, >>Right. >>The steak Tomahawk. I >>Think we're, we're good now. Now that we've cleared that up. Now we've cleared >>That up. >>Armando P, it was really nice to have both you. Thank you for teaching us about the future of ethernet N hpc. David Nicholson, always a pleasure to share the stage with you. And thank you all for tuning in to the Cube Live from Dallas. We're here talking all things HPC and Supercomputing all day long. We hope you'll continue to tune in. My name's Savannah Peterson, thanks for joining us.

(upbeat music) >> The market for enterprise servers is large and it generates well north of $100 billion in annual revenue, and it's growing consistently in the mid to high single digit range. Right now, like many segments, the market for servers is, it's like slingshotting, right? Organizations, they've been replenishing their install bases and upgrading, especially at HQs coming out of the isolation economy. But the macro headwinds, as we've reported, are impacting all segments of the market. CIOs, you know, they're tapping the brakes a little bit, sometimes quite a bit and being cautious with both capital expenditures and discretionary opex, particularly in the cloud. They're dialing it down and just being a little bit more, you know, cautious. The market for enterprise servers, it's dominated as you know, by x86 based systems with an increasingly large contribution coming from alternatives like ARM and NVIDIA. Intel, of course, is the largest supplier, but AMD has been incredibly successful competing with Intel because of its focus, it's got an outsourced manufacturing model and its innovation and very solid execution. Intel's frequent delays with its next generation Sapphire Rapid CPUs, now slated for January 2023 have created an opportunity for AMD, specifically AMD's next generation EPYC CPUs codenamed Genoa will offer as many as 96 Zen 4 cores per CPU when it launches later on this month. Observers can expect really three classes of Genoa. There's a standard Zen 4 compute platform for general purpose workloads, there's a compute density optimized Zen 4 package and then a cache optimized version for data intensive workloads. Indeed, the makers of enterprise servers are responding to customer requirements for more diversity and server platforms to handle different workloads, especially those high performance data-oriented workloads that are being driven by AI and machine learning and high performance computing, HPC needs. OEMs like Dell, they're going to be tapping these innovations and try to get to the market early. Dell, in particular, will be using these systems as the basis for its next generation Gen 16 servers, which are going to bring new capabilities to the market. Now, of course, Dell is not alone, there's got other OEM, you've got HPE, Lenovo, you've got ODMs, you've got the cloud players, they're all going to be looking to keep pace with the market. Now, the other big trend that we've seen in the market is the way customers are thinking about or should be thinking about performance. No longer is the clock speed of the CPU the soul and most indicative performance metric. There's much more emphasis in innovation around all those supporting components in a system, specifically the parts of the system that take advantage, for example, of faster bus speeds. We're talking about things like network interface cards and RAID controllers and memories and other peripheral devices that in combination with microprocessors, determine how well systems can perform and those kind of things around compute operations, IO and other critical tasks. Now, the combinatorial factors ultimately determine the overall performance of the system and how well suited a particular server is to handling different workloads. So we're seeing OEMs like Dell, they're building flexibility into their offerings and putting out products in their portfolios that can meet the changing needs of their customers. Welcome to our ongoing series where we investigate the critical question, does hardware matter? My name is Dave Vellante, and with me today to discuss these trends and the things that you should know about for the next generation of server architectures is former CTO from Oracle and EMC and adjunct faculty and Wharton CTO Academy, David Nicholson. Dave, always great to have you on "theCUBE." Thanks for making some time with me. >> Yeah, of course, Dave, great to be here. >> All right, so you heard my little spiel in the intro, that summary, >> Yeah. >> Was it accurate? What would you add? What do people need to know? >> Yeah, no, no, no, 100% accurate, but you know, I'm a resident nerd, so just, you know, some kind of clarification. If we think of things like microprocessor release cycles, it's always going to be characterized as rolling thunder. I think 2023 in particular is going to be this constant release cycle that we're going to see. You mentioned the, (clears throat) excuse me, general processors with 96 cores, shortly after the 96 core release, we'll see that 128 core release that you referenced in terms of compute density. And then, we can talk about what it means in terms of, you know, nanometers and performance per core and everything else. But yeah, no, that's the main thing I would say, is just people shouldn't look at this like a new car's being released on Saturday. This is going to happen over the next 18 months, really. >> All right, so to that point, you think about Dell's next generation systems, they're going to be featuring these new AMD processes, but to your point, when you think about performance claims, in this industry, it's a moving target. It's that, you call it a rolling thunder. So what does that game of hopscotch, if you will, look like? How do you see it unfolding over the next 12 to 18 months? >> So out of the gate, you know, slated as of right now for a November 10th release, AMD's going to be first to market with, you know, everyone will argue, but first to market with five nanometer technology in production systems, 96 cores. What's important though is, those microprocessors are going to be resident on motherboards from Dell that feature things like PCIe 5.0 technology. So everything surrounding the microprocessor complex is faster. Again, going back to this idea of rolling thunder, we expect the Gen 16 PowerEdge servers from Dell to similarly be rolled out in stages with initial releases that will address certain specific kinds of workloads and follow on releases with a variety of systems configured in a variety of ways. >> So I appreciate you painting a picture. Let's kind of stay inside under the hood, if we can, >> Sure. >> And share with us what we should know about these kind of next generation CPUs. How are companies like Dell going to be configuring them? How important are clock speeds and core counts in these new systems? And what about, you mentioned motherboards, what about next gen motherboards? You mentioned PCIe Gen 5, where does that fit in? So take us inside deeper into the system, please. >> Yeah, so if you will, you know, if you will join me for a moment, let's crack open the box and look inside. It's not just microprocessors. Like I said, they're plugged into a bus architecture that interconnect. How quickly that interconnect performs is critical. Now, I'm going to give you a statistic that doesn't require a PhD to understand. When we go from PCIe Gen 4 to Gen 5, which is going to be featured in all of these systems, we double the performance. So just, you can write that down, two, 2X. The performance is doubled, but the numbers are pretty staggering in terms of giga transactions per second, 128 gigabytes per second of aggregate bandwidth on the motherboard. Again, doubling when going from 4th Gen to 5th Gen. But the reality is, most users of these systems are still on PCIe Gen 3 based systems. So for them, just from a bus architecture perspective, you're doing a 4X or 8X leap in performance, and then all of the peripherals that plug into that faster bus are faster, whether it's RAID control cards from RAID controllers or storage controllers or network interface cards. Companies like Broadcom come to mind. All of their components are leapfrogging their prior generation to fit into this ecosystem. >> So I wonder if we could stay with PCIe for a moment and, you know, just understand what Gen 5 brings. You said, you know, 2X, I think we're talking bandwidth here. Is there a latency impact? You know, why does this matter? And just, you know, this premise that these other components increasingly matter more, Which components of the system are we talking about that can actually take advantage of PCIe Gen 5? >> Pretty much all of them, Dave. So whether it's memory plugged in or network interface cards, so communication to the outside world, which computer servers tend to want to do in 2022, controllers that are attached to internal and external storage devices. All of them benefit from this enhancement and performance. And it's, you know, PCI express performance is measured in essentially bandwidth and throughput in the sense of the numbers of transactions per second that you can do. It's mind numbing, I want to say it's 32 giga transfers per second. And then in terms of bandwidth, again, across the lanes that are available, 128 gigabytes per second. I'm going to have to check if it's gigabits or gigabytes. It's a massive number. And again, it's double what PCIe 4 is before. So what does that mean? Just like the advances in microprocessor technology, you can consolidate massive amounts of work into a much smaller footprint. That's critical because everything in that server is consuming power. So when you look at next generation hardware that's driven by things like AMD Genoa or you know, the EPYC processors, the Zen with the Z4 microprocessors, for every dollar that you're spending on power and equipment and everything else, you're getting far greater return on your investment. Now, I need to say that we anticipate that these individual servers, if you're out shopping for a server, and that's a very nebulous term because they come in all sorts of shapes and sizes, I think there's going to be a little bit of sticker shock at first until you run the numbers. People will look at an individual server and they'll say, wow, this is expensive and the peripherals, the things that are going into those slots are more expensive, but you're getting more bang for your buck. You're getting much more consolidation, lower power usage and for every dollar, you're getting a greater amount of performance and transactions, which translates up the stack through the application layer and, you know, out to the end user's desire to get work done. >> So I want to come back to that, but let me stay on performance for a minute. You know, we all used to be, when you'd go buy a new PC, you'd be like, what's the clock speed of that? And so, when you think about performance of a system today and how measurements are changing, how should customers think about performance in these next gen systems? And where does that, again, where does that supporting ecosystem play? >> So if you are really into the speeds and feeds and what's under the covers, from an academic perspective, you can go in and you can look at the die size that was used to create the microprocessors, the clock speeds, how many cores there are, but really, the answer is look at the benchmarks that are created through testing, especially from third party organizations that test these things for workloads that you intend to use these servers for. So if you are looking to support something like a high performance environment for artificial intelligence or machine learning, look at the benchmarks as they're recorded, as they're delivered by the entire system. So it's not just about the core. So yeah, it's interesting to look at clock speeds to kind of compare where we are with regards to Moore's Law. Have we been able to continue to track along that path? We know there are physical limitations to Moore's Law from an individual microprocessor perspective, but none of that really matters. What really matters is what can this system that I'm buying deliver in terms of application performance and user requirement performance? So that's what I'd say you want to look for. >> So I presume we're going to see these benchmarks at some point, I'm hoping we can, I'm hoping we can have you back on to talk about them. Is that something that we can expect in the future? >> Yeah, 100%, 100%. Dell, and I'm sure other companies, are furiously working away to demonstrate the advantages of this next gen architecture. If I had to guess, I would say that we are going to see quite a few world records set because of the combination of things, like faster network interface cards, faster storage cards, faster memory, more memory, faster cache, more cache, along with the enhanced microprocessors that are going to be delivered. And you mentioned this is, you know, AMD is sort of starting off this season of rolling thunder and in a few months, we'll start getting the initial entries from Intel also, and we'll be able to compare where they fit in with what AMD is offering. I'd expect OEMs like Dell to have, you know, a portfolio of products that highlight the advantages of each processor's set. >> Yeah, I talked in my open Dave about the diversity of workloads. What are some of those emerging workloads and how will companies like Dell address them in your view? >> So a lot of the applications that are going to be supported are what we think of as legacy application environments. A lot of Oracle databases, workloads associated with ERP, all of those things are just going to get better bang for their buck from a compute perspective. But what we're going to be hearing a lot about and what the future really holds for us that's exciting is this arena of artificial intelligence and machine learning. These next gen platforms offer performance that allows us to do things in areas like natural language processing that we just couldn't do before cost effectively. So I think the next few years are going to see a lot of advances in AI and ML that will be debated in the larger culture and that will excite a lot of computer scientists. So that's it, AI/ML are going to be the big buzzwords moving forward. >> So Dave, you talked earlier about this, some people might have sticker shocks. So some of the infrastructure pros that are watching this might be, oh, okay, I'm going to have to pitch this, especially in this, you know, tough macro environment. I'm going to have to sell this to my CIO, my CFO. So what does this all mean? You know, if they're going to have to pay more, how is it going to affect TCO? How would you pitch that to your management? >> As long as you stay away from per unit cost, you're fine. And again, we don't have necessarily, or I don't have necessarily insider access to street pricing on next gen servers yet, but what I do know from examining what the component suppliers tell us is that, these systems are going to be significantly more expensive on a per unit basis. But what does that mean? If the server that you're used to buying for five bucks is now 10 bucks, but it's doing five times as much work, it's a great deal, and anyone who looks at it and says, 10 bucks? It used to only be five bucks, well, the ROI and the TCO, that's where all of this really needs to be measured and a huge part of that is going to be power consumption. And along with the performance tests that we expect to see coming out imminently, we should also be expecting to see some of those ROI metrics, especially around power consumption. So I don't think it's going to be a problem moving forward, but there will be some sticker shock. I imagine you're going to be able to go in and configure a very, very expensive, fully loaded system on some of these configurators online over the next year. >> So it's consolidation, which means you could do more with less. It's going to be, or more with the same, it's going to be lower power, less cooling, less floor space and lower management overhead, which is kind of now you get into staff, so you're going to have to sort of identify how the staff can be productive in other areas. You're probably not going to fire people hopefully. But yeah, it sounds like it's going to be a really consolidation play. I talked at the open about Intel and AMD and Intel coming out with Sapphire Rapids, you know, of course it's been well documented, it's late but they're now scheduled for January. Pat Gelsinger's talked about this, and of course they're going to try to leapfrog AMD and then AMD is going to respond, you talked about this earlier, so that game is going to continue. How long do you think this cycle will last? >> Forever. (laughs) It's just that, there will be periods of excitement like we're going to experience over at least the next year and then there will be a lull and then there will be a period of excitement. But along the way, we've got lurkers who are trying to disrupt this market completely. You know, specifically you think about ARM where the original design point was, okay, you're powered by a battery, you have to fit in someone's pocket. You can't catch on fire and burn their leg. That's sort of the requirement, as opposed to the, you know, the x86 model, which is okay, you have a data center with a raised floor and you have a nuclear power plant down the street. So don't worry about it. As long as an 18-wheeler can get it to where it needs to be, we'll be okay. And so, you would think that over time, ARM is going to creep up as all destructive technologies do, and we've seen that, we've definitely seen that. But I would argue that we haven't seen it happen as quickly as maybe some of us expected. And then you've got NVIDIA kind of off to the side starting out, you know, heavy in the GPU space saying, hey, you know what, you can use the stuff we build for a whole lot of really cool new stuff. So they're running in a different direction, sort of gnawing at the traditional x86 vendors certainly. >> Yes, so I'm glad- >> That's going to be forever. >> I'm glad you brought up ARM and NVIDIA, I think, but you know, maybe it hasn't happened as quickly as many thought, although there's clearly pockets and examples where it is taking shape. But this to me, Dave, talks to the supporting cast. It's not just about the microprocessor unit anymore, specifically, you know, generally, but specifically the x86. It's the supporting, it's the CPU, the NPU, the XPU, if you will, but also all those surrounding components that, to your earlier point, are taking advantage of the faster bus speeds. >> Yeah, no, 100%. You know, look at it this way. A server used to be measured, well, they still are, you know, how many U of rack space does it take up? You had pizza box servers with a physical enclosure. Increasingly, you have the concept of a server in quotes being the aggregation of components that are all plugged together that share maybe a bus architecture. But those things are all connected internally and externally, especially externally, whether it's external storage, certainly networks. You talk about HPC, it's just not one server. It's hundreds or thousands of servers. So you could argue that we are in the era of connectivity and the real critical changes that we're going to see with these next generation server platforms are really centered on the bus architecture, PCIe 5, and the things that get plugged into those slots. So if you're looking at 25 gig or 100 gig NICs and what that means from a performance and/or consolidation perspective, or things like RDMA over Converged Ethernet, what that means for connecting systems, those factors will be at least as important as the microprocessor complexes. I imagine IT professionals going out and making the decision, okay, we're going to buy these systems with these microprocessors, with this number of cores in memory. Okay, great. But the real work starts when you start talking about connecting all of them together. What does that look like? So yeah, the definition of what constitutes a server and what's critically important I think has definitely changed. >> Dave, let's wrap. What can our audience expect in the future? You talked earlier about you're going to be able to get benchmarks, so that we can quantify these innovations that we've been talking about, bring us home. >> Yeah, I'm looking forward to taking a solid look at some of the performance benchmarking that's going to come out, these legitimate attempts to set world records and those questions about ROI and TCO. I want solid information about what my dollar is getting me. I think it helps the server vendors to be able to express that in a concrete way because our understanding is these things on a per unit basis are going to be more expensive and you're going to have to justify them. So that's really what, it's the details that are going to come the day of the launch and in subsequent weeks. So I think we're going to be busy for the next year focusing on a lot of hardware that, yes, does matter. So, you know, hang on, it's going to be a fun ride. >> All right, Dave, we're going to leave it there. Thanks you so much, my friend. Appreciate you coming on. >> Thanks, Dave. >> Okay, and don't forget to check out the special website that we've set up for this ongoing series. Go to doeshardwarematter.com and you'll see commentary from industry leaders, we got analysts on there, technical experts from all over the world. Thanks for watching, and we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)