(bright music) >> Hello, welcome to theCUBE's presentation of the Unstoppable Domains Partner Showcase. I'm John Furrier host of theCUBE. We're here talking about the metaverse and what it all means, what it brings to the table. We've got two pioneers here in the metaverse breaking it down, doing great stuff. Both co-founders of companies, Noah Gainer, co-founder and CEO Parcel. And CJ Hetherington Co-Founder of Atlantis World, digging deep and doing all the great stuff in the Midwest. Chill and thanks for coming on theCUBE. >> Thank you so much for having us. >> Thanks for having us. >> So, first of all, I want to say congratulations for the work you guys are doing. This is one of the biggest waves we've seen coming on. It's a changing user expectations, it's a changing architecture, it's real technology involved, there's a lot of action. 30% of people at University of California, Berkeley are dropping out of the Computer Science program to get into Web3. This is the biggest technological change, business model change, user experience change. And we've been seeing going back multiple inflection points. This is a big deal. So the metaverse is real. Some people say, "Well, you know, it's not com..." It's coming it's just a matter of time. So let's get into it. What are you guys doing? Tell us about your company's Parcel and Atlantis World. Noah, start with you. >> Sure, so Parcel is a marketplace for virtual real estate. So you can think of something like OpenSea, which everyone is familiar with, but we solely focus on virtual land and virtual real estate in a number of virtual world, maybe part of decent land or the sandbox. So we feature those on our platform and, you know, we take it the next level with the user experience. So we have fully interactive maps. We have price estimates. You can think of it like a estimate on Zillow and in general, we're building the fully verticalized solution for virtual real estate users. And that will extend into rentals, like Airbnbing out your virtual condo or getting a mortgage on your virtual home, as well as, you know, cultivating the community around it. And especially helping empower creators and architects and builders and getting them work and getting their work on display. >> I'm looking forward to digging into that, that sounds very cool. CJ what's Atlantis world doing? What do you got going on? >> Yeah, exactly. So at Atlantis world, we're building the Web3, social metaverse by connecting Web3 with social, gaming, and education in one light web virtual world, that's accessible to everybody. So by going with actually a light web first and a pixel approach so that you can play on mobile or a really old device, because the problem with existing metaverses is that they set an incredibly high cost barrier to entry and also tech isn't necessarily readily available globally in terms of things like VR headsets and gaming PCs. Like for example, when I was in Africa, I travel a lot. If my book would break, it's not even that I couldn't necessarily afford to buy anyone, it's actually not available there. So we're ruling out a lot of the global kind of population from a metaverse experience. And we're building something which is like 3D pixel and super light weight, to kind of bridge that gap and build something which is ready to be massive up till now and onboard billions of users into Web3. So they'll all basically be using Web3 applications in a gamified way and going really hard on connecting that with social features, like voice chat and talking, getting, and virtual events and vaulting and all of that stuff. >> You know, I love what you guys are doing, you're pioneering a whole another area, but what's great about the whole crypto area, is that, since you know, 2017 onwards you saw Ethereum set the developer market started coming in strong. So you start to see that development. And now we got the metaverse. So I got to ask you guys what's the current definition of the metaverse. I mean everyone's... I mean, since Facebook changed their name to Meta, it's been a hype cycle and everyone's like, "Woh..." First of all, you know why they did that. But they're actually putting a lot of DAO in this. This is a wave, we talked about that. But what is the metaverse? How do you describe it? Why is it relevant? Virtual real estate, that sounds cool. What does this all come together? Explain it for the people out there that might not be getting it right. >> Yeah, I feel like for me, the critical difference between an ordinary gamer, what one might think of as game and a metaverse is actually Web3. For me, Web3 is metaverse. And for me it's really because Web3 enables real world utility, but inside of a virtual environment. So for example, inside of Atlantis, you might run into a DeFi bank and understand by interacting with other game characters, which are programmed to teach you about DeFi and like, what is Avel, how to deposit. And so you're actually getting a real world utility out of doing something in a virtual environment. And for me, that's what really bridges the gap into metaverse. Yeah, I'm really kind of bullish on that. (chuckles) >> Noah, what's your take? Define the current state of the definition of the metaverse? What is the metaverse? >> Yeah, to me, it's the 3D internet. And I do agree with what CJ's saying, how, you know, what makes it the most compelling and will ultimately the most successful is that addition of a blockchain and essentialized, you know, tributed ledger technology. Because you can have the closed metaverse, which nobody wants that future. And I don't believe that will be the future. you know, versus the open metaverse, which is blockchain-based, the users are the owners of the assets and the land and everything around it. And it's really foreign by the people. But I see the metaverse as just an extension of the internet we're already using today but we're going to have hardware that makes it 3D and more immersive like AR and VR. >> Yeah, I think- >> Yeah, definitely- >> Go on CJ. >> Around kind of like eight or nine months ago when we started to build Atlantis, we decided that the metaverse was a virtual world where you could live, work, play, and earn, and that's what we've been building. It started off as like building the metaverse that has DeFi and over the kind of time it's gone on our community has grown, we've started to understand the future of our product and our mission and values. It started to become the Web3 metaverse, right? And then on top of that, the Web3 social metaverse, so it's a combination of what all these things. >> You know, it's interesting. And I'm a little bit older than you guys, I wish I was your age, but when the web came along, people were saying the same thing. That the web's terrible. It's a stupid thing. It's never going to be real. And yeah, there was problems. It was slow to dial up back in the day. But yeah, now with gaming, I got to say, I had to look at the gaming evolution being a gamer myself, old school, I guess, but the gaming culture is proxy to what I see kind of happening in the metaverse. And let me get your reaction to that. I'm not saying directly, but you saw what gaming did, right? In game currency, some, you know, pockets of the same kind of dynamic where a lot of value is happening, the expectations were different for users. So how does the metaverse... How does gaming cross over? What's the ecosystem of metaverse? Obviously it's a cultural shift, one. Infrastructure, two. But I can just see this new generation of thinking. It's a whole nother level. Can you guys share your thoughts on that riff? >> Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. It's like for us, we really believe that we can enable a social revolution, where workers from impoverished and remote regions can actually be onboarded into these digital player to earn economies and also learn to earn economies. So it's about leveraging Web3 and blockchain gaming, whatever actually you want to call it, to enable this revolution and actually onboard new people into a completely new working and dynamic. One of the other things we envision for Atlantis, imagine like you run around this game world and you complete quests inside of the game. And these quests basically involve talking to the non-player characters, the NPCs, which are basically pre-programmed. I don't know if anyone's ever played an MMORPG before, but it can be super fun. And they'll actually teach you how to use different crypto applications. Whether that's a DeFi bank, NFT marketplace, kind of digital asset exchange. And once you all do that, the kind of end goal in vision is that you'll be rewarded with tokens. So users will earn crypto for learning about crypto. And if anybody wants to do that right now, they can actually go to rabbithole.gg. It's a different project to Atlantis, but they building learn to earn, and you go on you complete quests and interact with different crypto applications. And it's so crucial for onboarding. And yeah, it's going to be really powerful, the kind of revolution that play to earn and learn to earn will enable. >> I'll check out the rabbihole.gg sounds awesome. What's your take on the reaction to that riff on this convergence of culture tech, gaming, vibe that's kind of divine the metaverse what's your take on that, Noah? >> Yeah, I mean... I think gaming will be the on ramp for maybe the first billion people, you know, into blockchain. It's something people already do and are already paying for, and they now have the opportunity to get paid to play. So the incentives are extremely strong and I think that will be a great way to usher people in, teach 'em about blockchain without realizing that they're using blockchain. And then once they're already in it and have already used it, then it becomes much more natural to user than other applications. >> It's funny, people always talk about, "Oh, user experience!" You know, expectations drive experience, right? If you expect something and if they're used to gaming, I see the great, great call out there, good point. Well, let me ask you guys a question, 'cause I think this is comes out a lot in terms of like the market shifts and metaverse, as an old expression, "Great markets pull the products out of companies or out of the industry." What organic growth have you guys seen in the metaverse that's been either a surprise or a natural evolution of just success and just growth, because the market's hungry for this and it is relevant. It's new, what's pulling out? What's coming out of the organic aspect of the metaverse? >> I think a lot of art and architecture and design. And, you know, it's empowering a lot of independent creators and allowing 'em to stretch their skills in a way that they maybe couldn't do before, but now can do and get compensated for. Like, we see really see the rise of the creator coming in the next couple of years in the open metaverse and finally they will be the ruling class. They won't get the short end of the stick, which artists have for... I mean all the time. >> Yeah, some of the wall street bet skies in the same way, feel the same way. CJ, What's your take on... What's getting pulled out on the organic execution growth of the interactions and metaverse evolution? >> Of course, yeah. I would, first of all love to go back to the previous point on gaming and just kind of like, definitely agree with what Noah said. And the thing is that gaming is 3.4 billion user market, and they're typically an experimental by nature people and group of users, right? So it's definitely a huge onboarding opportunity for teaching users about Web3 and using Web3 in a gamified way and making that kind of inherently fun and engaging. And again, in terms of organic growth, Web3 is incredible for that. We place a huge emphasis on, I think, collaborate versus compete and try to enable network effects for everybody who is involved in Atlantis and becoming part of our fast growing ecosystem. Like we have eight blockchain, more than 10 DeFi apps, like Aave, Yearn, Balanced, 1inch, Perpetual. All of the DAOs like The Exile, MetaCartel, lobsterdao, PizzaDAO, all of the NFT communities. Like we're actually building a yacht for bought yacht club on the beach in Atlantis. So that's fun. But yeah, we grew our community. We're very early stage still. We've been building only for eight or nine months, but we grew our community to like 20 to 30,000 community members across social channels. And we recently raised over a million dollars from our community and we're fully bootstrapped and taken no private money. So the ability to actually do that and to coordinate both kind of community efforts and fundraising and resources is really testament to Web3 and what it's becoming in the community aspect of that. And also its future and the kind of dawn and domination of the Metaverse. >> Well, I got to say, I just got to give you props for that. I think that fundraising dynamic is a real entrepreneurial new thing, that's awesome. You've got active community vote with their contribution and whether it's money and or other value, right? You got social value. This is the whole thing about the metaverse, there's a new community culture going next level here. >> We believe in community and we believe in Web3. And we know we don't understand why most leading metaverses are focusing fully on huge IP and actually ignoring Web3. So we're actually trying to build the infrastructure layer for Web3 applications and for Web3 driven utility inside of the metaverse. And what we mean by that imagine that any developer or any project or any team or any company could occupy a plot for free inside of the metaverse, customize it by branding and then effectively set up shop, whether that's a Web3 integration, so it's a DeFi Bank, or it's an exchange. Or whether that's an NFT marketplace or a music venue or a coworking space. We're really excited about that. And we really believe we've designed the value capture mechanism for virtual land in the metaverse and we're approaching it in a different way to land in the real world. >> That's awesome. Well, let's get that infrastructure conversation, unstoppable domains obviously there having the partner showcase here. You guys are partners. This NFT kind of like access method is a huge... I love it by the way. I think it's phenomenal. I love the value there, but it's also digital identity and it's distributed naming. So you kind of got this enablement vibe, you got solve a problem. How is it working with you guys? Take us through what does unstoppable metaverse... Why does unstoppable matter to the metaverse? >> Yeah, unstoppable is very great mostly for identity and having a kind of crush chain identity inside of the metaverse and just kind of in Web3 in general. And unstoppable, we enable log in with unstoppable. So if you have, for example, an unstoppable domain which is like a human readable kind of crypto wallet address, but you can also do some incredible, stuff with it, and there is a lot of fun and exciting utility, effectively, like if you would have, I don't know, like unstoppable.dao you would be able to use that to log in to the Atlantis metaverse and it would represent some of your identity and social graph in game with your peers. >> Awesome, Noah, what's your take on the unstoppable angle on this? >> Yeah, I mean, it makes it social. So, instead of you can have a feed, you know, something we're thinking about at Parcel is like a feed of all the real estate transactions, and you could follow certain people, you can follow your friends and see a feed of everything that your friends are doing in English or human readable terms that are not just like a wallet address. So, that's obviously a big one and they're also giving people more options in terms of, naming and top level domains if you want to be something.wallet or .nft, or hopefully eventually .metaverse- >> John: Yes. >> Will help expand that ecosystem much more. In addition to like on our... Like backend being able to capture email when they login and to provide better marketing for our users. >> What would you guys say to other metaverse partners looking for work with unstoppable domains for their login and digital identity, what would you recommend? >> It doesn't make sense to- >> I believe- >> Connect with the best DAO and integrate that if you want to keep shipping stuff for your community and keeping it exciting and engaging and enabling user choice in how they choose to display their identity in virtual environments. >> Yeah, there's practically no downside and plenty of upside, again, having those users who are already using unstoppable domains quickly, you know, log into your site and plug in. >> All right. That's awesome. Good stuff with unstoppable. I got to ask you guys give an example of on your products, I love the metaverse progression. I love the pioneering work you guys are doing. And again, the funding things are different. The user expectations are different. The technology experience are different. Billions of people going to be in enabled for it. What are the cool things you guys got going on? CJ, we were talking before we came on camera about the tree thing you got going on. Take us through some of the things that are exciting that people may not know about or may know about. What should they pay attention to share, share some insight? >> Yeah, of course. So one of the fun things, actually that we're building on that on these sites together with our full team and also some outside contributors from the community and two kin protocol, which is a regenerative finance protocol. And I'll get into that a little bit in a minute. Effectively what we're actually doing is planting a carbon capturing virtual forest inside of the metaverse that will in future also be bio diverse. So how we're approaching that is imagine that you can plant NFT trees inside of the metaverse, providing that your will deposit X amount of kind of USD stablecoin or Ether or some digital asset. You can actually use that to deposit inside of the tree. And we will use some, probably something like super fluid, which is like a kind of smart projecting infrastructure platform. And we all essentially enable every single second funds being sent from the contract and actually purchasing real world carbon credits. So legitimate, you know, government bags to carbon credits from the voluntary kind of public market that have actually been bridged on chain, transformed into a crypto asset, and they will be locked away inside of these trees inside of game forever. And in future, we also hope to have like user on animals, roaming the great forest of Atlantis, which will have biodiversity and endangered species credit, locked inside. And we hope to support a variety of different kind of sustainable assets and things like that to really populate this ecosystem. >> So it's you're doing climate change good for real, as well as rendering it as an asset for everyone to see and enjoy. >> Absolutely. And for me, that's what makes the metaverse the metaverse, that's what I talked about. It's how Web3 enables the metaverse to cross over into our real world, ordinary life from URL to IRL and actually provide some incredible positive impact for all of humanity on the planet. >> And Noah, you have some action going on there. I mean, I would be like, "oh, virtual real estate, isn't it unlimited real estate?" But when you have users come together, this value, we've seen this in gaming, what are some of the cool things you got going on over there at Parcel? >> Yeah, I think one thing that stands out, which maybe not enough people are thinking about are AR virtual world. So, right now a lot of people are focused on the VR types, central and sandbox and, and Atlantis, but there very well may be a billion people using augmented reality before there are a billion using virtual reality just because of the nature of the hardware development and apple may come out with their AR headset by the end of the year. So there are a few projects there they've taken the real world to map and Parcel it out into hexagons, and you can actually buy that, and you own that, that piece and you can put your own custom content there. And on that social impact point, we have heard about a few projects that are trying to use it for good. And like one project is bought up some land in the Amazon rain forest and some of the proceeds go to conservation of the rain forest. So, you know, we're all about using blockchain for good and right, coming together as a globe. >> I can't wait to see the commercial real estate division of your group with all the work from, a remote coming on. Guys, great stuff you got going on, again, you guys are pioneering an area that is coming big. It's coming strong, its got a lot of... A momentum, vitality, and energy to it. Put a plug in for your companies. Noah, we'll start with you. What's going on with Parcel, share a plug for the company. What you're looking for, do some key highlights, news, take a minute to, to give a plug. >> Sure. Yeah, great. We are the destination for virtual real estate and that extends well beyond just the buyers and sellers. That's everyone across the whole chain with property managers and property developers, but then also the builders and creators and artists, and we are working right now on aggregating the best creator directory in the metaverse. So you can think of it as a place where artists can come showcase their work and get hired. As well as just generally like bridging this knowledge gap that is much wider than we even expected. So we have our Parcel learn product coming soon, which is a fully fledged, knowledge base with education, informational content and lots of rich data. >> Where can people get involved? What's the channels? Are all channels open? Where can we find you? >> Yeah, our websites Parcel.so on Twitter, you can find us at ParcelNFT and you can link to our discord from either one of those. It's the best way to get involved. >> All right, CJ, put a plug in for the last world, I know you got a lot of action to share. >> Yeah, of course. I would love to see everybody there. Thanks so much for having us. And thanks for listening. Like I said, at the start of the call, we're building the Web3 social metaverse and we're connecting Web3 with social gaming and education, in one light web virtual world that's accessible to everybody. We're also doing some crazy stuff like planting their cabin, capturing virtual forest and all of that, and trying to be the infrastructure layer for Web3 driven real world utility inside of the metaverse. And we believe that we have designed the critical value capture mechanism for virtual learn. I we'll be sharing more all of that very soon and continuing to integrate the best apps from across the Web3 ecosystem and showcasing them at the center of Atlantis. You can go to discord.gg/atlantisworld. If you would love to learn more about us, you can go to wiki.atlantis.world. And there is some documentation now, which includes back story and team and some of our milestones and achievements so far from winning hackathons to raising grants and launching our Alpha belt, soft launching it. And we all have the public free to play coming in March. And where most active, I would say on discord and Twitter. On Twitter you can find us atlantisOx, or just search Atlantis world. And it's the first one that come up. >> All right. CJ, thank you. Noah, thanks for coming out. I really appreciate you spending the time here, and unstoppable showcase and being a partner. Again they got the great digital identity, great plug there for them here. Thanks for sharing that and thanks for sharing the time. Appreciate you guys are pioneer of some good stuff. Appreciate it. >> Thanks so much man. >> I so appreciate that. >> All right, theCUBE's unstoppable domains partner showcase. Thanks for watching. (bright music)

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is "Breaking Analysis" with Dave Vellante. >> When Facebook changed its name to Meta last fall, it catalyzed a chain reaction throughout the tech industry. Software firms, gaming companies, chip makers, device manufacturers, and others have joined in hype machine. Now, it's easy to dismiss the metaverse as futuristic hyperbole, but do we really believe that tapping on a smartphone, or staring at a screen, or two-dimensional Zoom meetings are the future of how we work, play, and communicate? As the internet itself proved to be larger than we ever imagined, it's very possible, and even quite likely that the combination of massive processing power, cheap storage, AI, blockchains, crypto, sensors, AR, VR, brain interfaces, and other emerging technologies will combine to create new and unimaginable consumer experiences, and massive wealth for creators of the metaverse. Hello, and welcome to this week's Wiki Bond Cube Insights, powered by ETR. In this "Breaking Analysis" we welcome in cyber expert, hacker gamer, NFT expert, and founder of ORE System, Nick Donarski. Nick, welcome, thanks so much for coming on theCUBE. >> Thank you, sir, glad to be here. >> Yeah, okay, so today we're going to traverse two parallel paths, one that took Nick from security expert and PenTester to NFTs, tokens, and the metaverse. And we'll simultaneously explore the complicated world of cybersecurity in the enterprise, and how the blockchain, crypto, and NFTs will provide key underpinnings for digital ownership in the metaverse. We're going to talk a little bit about blockchain, and crypto, and get things started there, and some of the realities and misconceptions, and how innovations in those worlds have led to the NFT craze. We'll look at what's really going on in NFTs and why they're important as both a technology and societal trend. Then, we're going to dig into the tech and try to explain why and how blockchain and NFTs are going to lay the foundation for the metaverse. And, finally, who's going to build the metaverse. And how long is it going to take? All right, Nick, let's start with you. Tell us a little bit about your background, your career. You started as a hacker at a really, really young age, and then got deep into cyber as a PenTester. You did some pretty crazy stuff. You have some great stories about sneaking into buildings. You weren't just doing it all remote. Tell us about yourself. >> Yeah, so I mean, really, I started a long time ago. My dad was really the foray into technology. I wrote my first program on an Apple IIe in BASIC in 1989. So, I like to say I was born on the internet, if you will. But, yeah, in high school at 16, I incorporated my first company, did just tech support for parents and teachers. And then in 2000 I transitioned really into security and focused there ever since. I joined Rapid7 and after they picked up Medis boy, I joined HP. I was one of their founding members of Shadowlabs and really have been part of the information security and the cyber community all throughout, whether it's training at various different conferences or talking. My biggest thing and my most awesome moments as various things of being broken into, is really when I get to actually work with somebody that's coming up in the industry and who's new and actually has that light bulb moment of really kind of understanding of technology, understanding an idea, or getting it when it comes to that kind of stuff. >> Yeah, and when you think about what's going on in crypto and NFTs and okay, now the metaverse it's you get to see some of the most innovative people. Now I want to first share a little bit of data on enterprise security and maybe Nick get you to comment. We've reported over the past several years on the complexity in the security business and the numerous vendor choices that SecOps Pros face. And this chart really tells that story in the cybersecurity space. It's an X,Y graph. We've shown it many times from the ETR surveys where the vertical axis, it's a measure of spending momentum called net score. And the horizontal axis is market share, which represents each company's presence in the data set, and a couple of points stand out. First, it's really crowded. In that red dotted line that you see there, that's 40%, above that line on the net score axis, marks highly elevated spending momentum. Now, let's just zoom in a bit and I've cut the data by those companies that have more than a hundred responses in the survey. And you can see here on this next chart, it's still very crowded, but a few call-outs are noteworthy. First companies like SentinelOne, Elastic, Tanium, Datadog, Netskope and Darktrace. They were all above that 40% line in the previous chart, but they've fallen off. They still have actually a decent presence in the survey over 60 responses, but under that hundred. And you can see Auth0 now Okta, big $7 billion acquisition. They got the highest net score CrowdStrike's up there, Okta classic they're kind of enterprise business, and Zscaler and others above that line. You see Palo Alto Networks and Microsoft very impressive because they're both big and they're above that elevated spending velocity. So Nick, kind of a long-winded intro, but it was a little bit off topic, but I wanted to start here because this is the life of a SecOps pro. They lack the talent in a capacity to keep bad guys fully at bay. And so they have to keep throwing tooling at the problem, which adds to the complexity and as a PenTester and hacker, this chaos and complexity means cash for the bad guys. Doesn't it? >> Absolutely. You know, the more systems that these organizations find to integrate into the systems, means that there's more components, more dollars and cents as far as the amount of time and the engineers that need to actually be responsible for these tools. There's a lot of reasons that, the more, I guess, hands in the cookie jar, if you will, when it comes to the security architecture, the more links that are, or avenues for attack built into the system. And really one of the biggest things that organizations face is being able to have engineers that are qualified and technical enough to be able to support that architecture as well, 'cause buying it from a vendor and deploying it, putting it onto a shelf is good, but if it's not tuned properly, or if it's not connected properly, that security tool can just hold up more avenues of attack for you. >> Right, okay, thank you. Now, let's get into the meat of the discussion for today and talk a little bit about blockchain and crypto for a bit. I saw sub stack post the other day, and it was ripping Matt Damon for pedaling crypto on TV ads and how crypto is just this big pyramid scheme. And it's all about allowing criminals to be anonymous and it's ransomware and drug trafficking. And yes, there are definitely scams and you got to be careful and lots of dangers out there, but these are common criticisms in the mainstream press, that overlooked the fact by the way that IPO's and specs are just as much of a pyramid scheme. Now, I'm not saying there shouldn't be more regulation, there should, but Bitcoin was born out of the 2008 financial crisis, cryptocurrency, and you think about, it's really the confluence of software engineering, cryptography and game theory. And there's some really powerful innovation being created by the blockchain community. Crypto and blockchain are really at the heart of a new decentralized platform being built out. And where today, you got a few, large internet companies. They control the protocols and the platform. Now the aspiration of people like yourself, is to create new value opportunities. And there are many more chances for the little guys and girls to get in on the ground floor and blockchain technology underpins all this. So Nick, what's your take, what are some of the biggest misconceptions around blockchain and crypto? And do you even pair those two in the same context? What are your thoughts? >> So, I mean, really, we like to separate ourselves and say that we are a blockchain company, as opposed to necessarily saying(indistinct) anything like that. We leverage those tools. We leverage cryptocurrencies, we leverage NFTs and those types of things within there, but blockchain is a technology, which is the underlying piece, is something that can be used and utilized in a very large number of different organizations out there. So, cryptocurrency and a lot of that negative context comes with a fear of something new, without having that regulation in place, without having the rules in place. And we were a big proponent of, we want the regulation, right? We want to do right. We want to do it by the rules. We want to do it under the context of, this is what should be done. And we also want to help write those rules as well, because a lot of the lawmakers, a lot of the lobbyists and things, they have a certain aspect or a certain goal of when they're trying to get these things. Our goal is simplicity. We want the ability for the normal average person to be able to interact with crypto, interact with NFTs, interact with the blockchain. And basically by saying, blockchain in quotes, it's very ambiguous 'cause there's many different things that blockchain can be, the easiest way, right? The easiest way to understand blockchain is simply a distributed database. That's really the core of what blockchain is. It's a record keeping mechanism that allows you to reference that. And the beauty of it, is that it's quote unquote immutable. You can't edit that data. So, especially when we're talking about blockchain, being underlying for technologies in the future, things like security, where you have logging, you have keeping, whether you're talking about sales, where you may have to have multiple different locations (indistinct) users from different locations around the globe. It creates a central repository that provides distribution and security in the way that you're ensuring your data, ensuring the validation of where that data exists when it was created. Those types of things that blockchain really is. If you go to the historical, right, the very early on Bitcoin absolutely was made to have a way of not having to deal with the fed. That was the core functionality of the initial crypto. And then you had a lot of the illicit trades, those black markets that jumped onto it because of what it could do. The maturity of the technology though, of where we are now versus say back in 97 is a much different world of blockchain, and there's a much different world of cryptocurrency. You still have to be careful because with any fed, you're still going to have that FUD that goes out there and sells that fear, uncertainty and doubt, which spurs a lot of those types of scams, and a lot of those things that target end users that we face as security professionals today. You still get mailers that go out, looking for people to give their social security number over during tax time. Snail mail is considered a very ancient technology, but it still works. You still get a portion of the population that falls for those tricks, fishing, whatever it might be. It's all about trying to make sure that you have fear about what is that change. And I think that as we move forward, and move into the future, the simpler and the more comfortable these types of technologies become, the easier it is to utilize and indoctrinate normal users, to be able to use these things. >> You know, I want to ask you about that, Nick, because you mentioned immutability, there's a lot of misconceptions about that. I had somebody tell me one time, "Blockchain's Bs," and they say, "Well, oh, hold on a second. They say, oh, they say it's a mutable, but you can hack Coinbase, whatever it is." So I guess a couple of things, one is that the killer app for blockchain became money. And so we learned a lot through that. And you had Bitcoin and it really wasn't programmable through its interface. And then Ethereum comes out. I know, you know a lot about Ether and you have solidity, which is a lot simpler, but it ain't JavaScript, which is ubiquitous. And so now you have a lot of potential for the initial ICO's and probably still the ones today, the white papers, a lot of security flaws in there. I'm sure you can talk to that, but maybe you can help square that circle about immutability and security. I've mentioned game theory before, it's harder to hack Bitcoin and the Bitcoin blockchain than it is to mine. So that's why people mine, but maybe you could add some context to that. >> Yeah, you know it goes to just about any technology out there. Now, when you're talking about blockchain specifically, the majority of the attacks happen with the applications and the smart contracts that are actually running on the blockchain, as opposed to necessarily the blockchain itself. And like you said, the impact for whether that's loss of revenue or loss of tokens or whatever it is, in most cases that results from something that was a phishing attack, you gave up your credentials, somebody said, paste your private key in here, and you win a cookie or whatever it might be, but those are still the fundamental pieces. When you're talking about various different networks out there, depending on the blockchain, depends on how much the overall security really is. The more distributed it is, and the more stable it is as the network goes, the better or the more stable any of the code is going to be. The underlying architecture of any system is the key to success when it comes to the overall security. So the blockchain itself is immutable, in the case that the owner are ones have to be trusted. If you look at distributed networks, something like Ethereum or Bitcoin, where you have those proof of work systems, that disperses that information at a much more remote location, So the more disperse that information is, the less likely it is to be able to be impacted by one small instance. If you look at like the DAO Hack, or if you look at a lot of the other vulnerabilities that exist on the blockchain, it's more about the code. And like you said, solidity being as new as it is, it's not JavaScript. The industry is very early and very infantile, as far as the developers that are skilled in doing this. And with that just comes the inexperience and the lack of information that you don't learn until JavaScript is 10 or 12 years old. >> And the last thing I'll say about this topic, and we'll move on to NFTs, but NFTs relate is that, again, I said earlier that the big internet giants have pretty much co-opted the platform. You know, if you wanted to invest in Linux in the early days, there was no way to do that. You maybe have to wait until red hat came up with its IPO and there's your pyramid scheme folks. But with crypto it, which is again, as Nick was explaining underpinning is the blockchain, you can actually participate in early projects. Now you got to be careful 'cause there are a lot of scams and many of them are going to blow out if not most of them, but there are some, gems out there, because as Nick was describing, you've got this decentralized platform that causes scaling issues or performance issues, and people are solving those problems, essentially building out a new internet. But I want to get into NFTs, because it's sort of the next big thing here before we get into the metaverse, what Nick, why should people pay attention to NFTs? Why do they matter? Are they really an important trend? And what are the societal and technological impacts that you see in this space? >> Yeah, I mean, NFTs are a very new technology and ultimately it's just another entry on the blockchain. It's just another piece of data in the database. But how it's leveraged in the grand scheme of how we, as users see it, it can be the classic idea of an NFT is just the art, or as good as the poster on your wall. But in the case of some of the new applications, is where are you actually get that utility function. Now, in the case of say video games, video games and gamers in general, already utilize digital items. They already utilize digital points. As in the case of like Call of Duty points, those are just different versions of digital currencies. You know, World of Warcraft Gold, I like to affectionately say, was the very first cryptocurrency. There was a Harvard course taught on the economy of WOW, there was a black market where you could trade your end game gold for Fiat currencies. And there's even places around the world that you can purchase real world items and stay at hotels for World of Warcraft Gold. So the adoption of blockchain just simply gives a more stable and a more diverse technology for those same types of systems. You're going to see that carry over into shipping and logistics, where you need to have data that is single repository for being able to have multiple locations, multiple shippers from multiple global efforts out there that need to have access to that data. But in the current context, it's either sitting on a shipping log, it's sitting on somebody's desk. All of those types of paper transactions can be leveraged as NFTs on the blockchain. It's just simply that representation. And once you break the idea of this is just a piece of art, or this is a cryptocurrency, you get into a world where you can apply that NFT technology to a lot more things than I think most people think of today. >> Yeah, and of course you mentioned art a couple of times when people sold as digital art for whatever, it was 60, 65 million, 69 million, that caught a lot of people's attention, but you're seeing, I mean, there's virtually infinite number of applications for this. One of the Washington wizards, tokenized portions of his contract, maybe he was creating a new bond, that's really interesting use cases and opportunities, and that kind of segues into the latest, hot topic, which is the metaverse. And you've said yourself that blockchain and NFTs are the foundation of the metaverse, they're foundational elements. So first, what is the metaverse to you and where do blockchain and NFTs, fit in? >> Sure, so, I mean, I affectionately refer to the metaverse just a VR and essentially, we've been playing virtual reality games and all the rest for a long time. And VR has really kind of been out there for a long time. So most people's interpretation or idea of what the metaverse is, is a virtual reality version of yourself and this right, that idea of once it becomes yourself, is where things like NFT items, where blockchain and digital currencies are going to come in, because if you have a manufacturer, so you take on an organization like Nike, and they want to put their shoes into the metaverse because we, as humans, want to individualize ourselves. We go out and we want to have that one of one shoe or that, t-shirt or whatever it is, we're going to want to represent that same type of individuality in our virtual self. So NFTs, crypto and all of those digital currencies, like I was saying that we've known as gamers are going to play that very similar role inside of the metaverse. >> Yeah. Okay. So basically you're going to take your physical world into the metaverse. You're going to be able to, as you just mentioned, acquire things- I loved your WOW example. And so let's stay on this for a bit, if we may, of course, Facebook spawned a lot of speculation and discussion about the concept of the metaverse and really, as you pointed out, it's not new. You talked about why second life, really started in 2003, and it's still around today. It's small, I read recently, it's creators coming back into the company and books were written in the early 90s that used the term metaverse. But Nick, talk about how you see this evolving, what role you hope to play with your company and your community in the future, and who builds the metaverse, when is it going to be here? >> Yeah, so, I mean, right now, and we actually just got back from CES last week. And the Metaverse is a very big buzzword. You're going to see a lot of integration of what people are calling, quote unquote, the metaverse. And there was organizations that were showing virtual office space, virtual malls, virtual concerts, and those types of experiences. And the one thing right now that I don't think that a lot of organizations have grasp is how to make one metaverse. There's no real player one, if you will always this yet, There's a lot of organizations that are creating their version of the metaverse, which then again, just like every other software and game vendor out there has their version of cryptocurrency and their version of NFTs. You're going to see it start to pop up, especially as Oculus is going to come down in price, especially as you get new technologies, like some of the VR glasses that look more augmented reality and look more like regular glasses that you're wearing, things like that, the easier that those technologies become as in adopting into our normal lifestyle, as far as like looks and feels, the faster that stuff's going to actually come out to the world. But when it comes to like, what we're doing is we believe that the metaverse should actually span multiple different blockchains, multiple different segments, if you will. So what ORE system is doing, is we're actually building the underlying architecture and technologies for developers to bring their metaverse too. You can leverage the ORE Systems NFTs, where we like to call our utility NFTs as an in-game item in one game, or you can take it over and it could be a t-shirt in another game. The ability for having that cross support within the ecosystem is what really no one has grasp on yet. Most of the organizations out there are using a very classic business model. Get the user in the game, make them spend their money in the game, make all their game stuff as only good in their game. And that's where the developer has you, they have you in their bubble. Our goal, and what we like to affectionately say is, we want to bring white collar tools and technology to blue collar folks, We want to make it simple. We want to make it off the shelf, and we want to make it a less cost prohibitive, faster, and cheaper to actually get out to all the users. We do it by supporting the technology. That's our angle. If you support the technology and you support the platform, you can build a community that will build all of the metaverse around them. >> Well, and so this is interesting because, if you think about some of the big names, we've Microsoft is talking about it, obviously we mentioned Facebook. They have essentially walled gardens. Now, yeah, okay, I could take Tik Tok and pump it into Instagram is fine, but they're really siloed off. And what you're saying is in the metaverse, you should be able to buy a pair of sneakers in one location and then bring it to another one. >> Absolutely, that's exactly it. >> And so my original kind of investment in attractiveness, if you will, to crypto, was that, the little guy can get an early, but I worry that some of these walled gardens, these big internet giants are going to try to co-op this. So I think what you're doing is right on, and I think it's aligned with the objectives of consumers and the users who don't want to be forced in to a pen. They want to be able to live freely. And that's really what you're trying to do. >> That's exactly it. You know, when you buy an item, say a Skin in Fortnite or Skin in Call of Duty, it's only good in that game. And not even in the franchise, it's only good in that version of the game. In the case of what we want to do is, you can not only have that carry over and your character. So say you buy a really cool shirt, and you've got that in your Call of Duty or in our case, we're really Osiris Protocol, which is our proof of concept video game to show that this all thing actually works, but you can actually go in and you can get a gun in Osiris Protocol. And if we release, Osiris Protocol two, you'll be able to take that to Osiris Protocol two. Now the benefit of that is, is you're going to be the only one in the next version with that item, if you haven't sold it or traded it or whatever else. So we don't lock you into a game. We don't lock you into a specific application. You own that, you can trade that freely with other users. You can sell that on the open market. We're embracing what used to be considered the black market. I don't understand why a lot of video games, we're always against the skins and mods and all the rest. For me as a gamer and coming up, through the many, many years of various different Call of Duties and everything in my time, I wish I could still have some this year. I still have a World of Warcraft account. I wasn't on, Vanilla, Burning Crusade was my foray, but I still have a character. If you look at it that way, if I had that wild character and that gear was NFTs, in theory, I could actually pass that onto my kid who could carry on that character. And it would actually increase in value because they're NFT back then. And then if needed, you could trade those on the open market and all the rest. It just makes gaming a much different thing. >> I love it. All right, Nick, hey, we're out of time, but I got to say, Nick Donarski, thanks so much for coming on the program today, sharing your insights and really good luck to you and building out your technology platform and your community. >> Thank you, sir, it's been an absolute pleasure. >> And thank you for watching. Remember, all these episodes are available as podcasts, just search "Breaking Analysis Podcast", and you'll find them. I publish pretty much every week on siliconangle.com and wikibond.com. And you can reach me @dvellante on Twitter or comment on my LinkedIn posts. You can always email me david.vellante@siliconangle.com. And don't forget, check out etr.plus for all the survey data. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE Insights, powered by ETR, happy 2022 be well, and we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> We're back. This is Dave Vellante of theCUBE, and we're here with Ray Wang, who just wrote a book reminiscent of the famous Tears for Fears song, Everybody Wants to Rule the World: Surviving and Thriving in a World of Digital Giants. Ray, great to see again, man. >> What's going on, man, how are you? >> Oh great, thanks for coming on. You know, it was crazy, been crazy, but it's good to see you face-to-face. >> Ray: This is, we're in the flesh, it's live, we're having conversations, and the information that we're getting is cut right. >> Dave: Yeah, so why did you write this book and how did you find the time? >> Hey, we're in the middle of pandemic. No, I wrote the book because what was happening was digital transformation efforts, they're starting to pop up, but companies weren't always succeeding. And something was happening with digital giants that was very different. They were winning in the marketplace. And never in the form of, if you think about extreme capitalism, if we think about capitalism in general, never in the history of capitalism have we seen growth of large companies. They get large, they fall apart, they don't have anything to build, they can't scale. Their organizations are in shambles. But what happened? If you look at 2017, the combined market cap of the FAANGs and Microsoft was 2 trillion. Today, it is almost 10.2 trillion. It's quintupled. That's never happened. And there's something behind that business model that they put into place that others have copied, from the Airbnbs to the Robloxes to what's going to happen with like a Starlink, and of course, the Robinhoods and you know, Robinhoods and Coinbases of the world. >> And the fundamental premise is all around data, right? Putting data at the core, if you don't do that, you're going to fly blind. >> It is and the secret behind that is the long-term platforms called data-driven digital networks. These platforms take the ability, large memberships, our large devices, they look at that effect. Then they look at figuring out how to actually win on data supremacy. And then of course, they monetize off that data. And that's really the secret behind that is you've got to build that capability and what they do really well is they dis-intermediate customer account control. They take the relationships, aggregate them together. So food delivery app companies are great example of that. You know, small businesses are out there that hundreds and thousands of customers. Today, what happens? Well, they've been aggregated. Millions of customers together into food delivery app. >> Well, I think, you know, this is really interesting what you're saying, because if you think about how we deal with Netflix, we don't call the Netflix sales department or the marketing department of the service, just one interface, the Netflix. So they've been able to put data at their core. Can incumbents do that? How can they do that? >> Incumbents can definitely do that. And it's really about figuring out how to automate that capture. What you really want to do is you start in the cloud, you bring the data together, and you start putting the three A's, analytics, automation, and AI are what you have to be able to put into place. And when you do do that, you now have the ability to go out and figure out how to create that flywheel effect inside those data-driven digital networks. These DDDNS are important. So in Netflix, what are they capturing? They're looking at sentiment, they're looking at context. Like why did you interact with, you know, one title versus another? Did you watch Ted Lasso? Did you switch out of Apple TV to Netflix? Well, I want to know why, right? Did you actually jump into another category? You switched into genres. After 10:00 p.m., what are you watching? Maybe something very different than what you're watching at 2:00 p.m.. How many members are in the home, right? All these questions are being answered and that's the business graph behind all this. >> How much of this is kind of related to the way organizations or companies are organized? In other words, you think about, historically, they would maybe put the process at the core or the, in a bottling plant, the manufacturing facility at the core and the data's all dispersed. Everybody talks about silos. So will AI be the answer to that? Will some new database, Snowflake? Is that the answer? What's the answer to sort of bringing that data together and how do you deal with the organizational inertia? >> Well, the trick to it is really to have a single plane to be able to access that data. I don't care where the data sits, whether it's on premise, whether it's in the cloud, whether it's in the edge, it makes no difference. That's really what you want to be able to do is bring that information together. But the glue is the context. What time was it? What's the weather outside? What location are you in? What's your heart rate? Are you smiling, right? All of those factors come into play. And what we're trying to do is take a user, right? So it could be a customer, a supplier, a partner, or an employee. And how do they interact with an order doc, an invoice, an incident, and then apply the context. And what we're doing is mining that context and information. Now, the more, back to your other point on self service and automation, the more you can actually collect those data points, the more you can capture that context, the more you're able to get to refine that information. >> Context, that's interesting, because if you think about our operational systems, we've contextualized most of them, whether it's sales, marketing, logistics, but we haven't really contextualized our data systems, our data architecture. It's generally run by a technical group. They don't necessarily have the line of business context. You see what HPE is doing today is trying to be inclusive of data on prem. I mentioned Snowflake, they're saying no way. Frank Slootman says we're not going on prem. So that's kind of interesting. So how do you see sort of context evolving with the actually the business line? Not only who has the context actually can, I hate to use the word, but I'm going to, own the data. >> You have to have a data to decisions pathway. That data decisions pathway is you start with all types of data, structured, unstructured, semi-structured, you align it to a business process as an issue, issue to resolution, order to cash, procure to pay, hire to retire. You bring that together, and then you start mining and figuring out what patterns exist. Once you have the patterns, you can then figure out the next best action. And when you get the next best action, you can compete on decisions. And that becomes a very important part. That decision piece, that's going to be automated. And when we think about that, you and I make a decision one per second, how long does it get out of management committee? Could be a week, two weeks, a quarter, a year. It takes forever to get anything out of management committee. But these new systems, if you think about machines, can make decisions a hundred times per second, a thousand times per second. And that's what we're competing against. That asymmetry is the decision velocity. How quickly you can make decisions will be a competitive weapon. >> Is there a dissonance between the fact that you just mentioned, speed, compressing, that sort of time to decision, and the flip side of that coin, quality, security, governance. How do you see squaring that circle? >> Well, that's really why we're going to have to make that, that's the automated, that's the AI piece. Just like we have all types of data, we got to spew up automated ontologies, we got to spit them up, we got to be using, we've got to put them back into play, and then we got to be able to take back into action. And so you want enterprise class capabilities. That's your data quality. That's your security. That's the data governance. That's the ability to actually take that data and understand time series, and actually make sure that the integrity of that data is there. >> What do you think about this sort of notion that increasingly, people are going to be building data products and services that can be monetized? And that's kind of goes back to context, the business lines kind of being responsible for their own data, not having to get permission to add another data source. Do you see that trend? Do you see that decentralization trend? Two-part question. And where do you see HPE fitting into that? >> I see, one, that that trend is definitely going to exist. I'll give you an example. I can actually destroy the top two television manufacturers in the world in less than five years. I could take them out of the business and I'll show you how to do it. So I'm going to make you an offer. $15 per month for the next five years. I'm going to give you a 72 inch, is it 74? 75 inch, 75 inch smart TV, 4k, big TV, right? And it comes with a warranty. And if anything breaks, I'm going to return it to you in 48 hours or less with a brand new one. I don't want your personal information. I'm only going to monitor performance data. I want to know the operations. I want to know which supplier lied to me, which components are working, what features you use. I don't need to know your personal viewing habits, okay? Would you take that deal? >> TV is a service, sure, of course I would. >> 15 bucks and I'm going to make you a better deal. For $25 a month, you get to make an upgrade anytime during that five-year period. What would happen to the two largest TV manufacturers if I did that? >> Yeah, they'd be disrupted. Now, you obviously have a pile of VC money that you're going to do that. Will you ever make money at that model? >> Well, here's why I'll get there and I'll explain. What's going to happen is I lock them out of the market for four to five years. I'm going to take 50 to 60% of the market. Yes, I got to raise $10 billion to figure out how to do that. But that's not really what happens at the end. I become a data company because I have warranty data. I'm going to buy a company that does, you know, insurance like in Asurion. I'm going to get break/fix data from like a Best Buy or a company like that. I'm going to get at safety data from an underwriter's lab. It's a competition for data. And suddenly, I know those habits better than anyone else. I'm going to go do other things more than the TV. I'm not done with the TV. I'm going to do your entire kitchen. For $100 a month, I'll do a mid range. For like $500 a month, I'm going to take your dish washer, your washer, your dryer, your refrigerator, your range. And I'll do like Miele, Gaggenau, right? If you want to go down Viking, Wolf, I'll do it for $450 a month for the next 10 years. By year five, I have better insurance information than the insurance companies from warranty. And I can even make that deal portable. You see where we're going? >> Yeah so each of those are, I see them as data products. So you've got your TV service products, you've got your kitchen products, you've got your maintenance, you know, data products. All those can be monetized. >> And I went from TV manufacturer to underwriter overnight. I'm competing on data, on insurance, and underwriting. And more importantly, here's the green initiative. Here's why someone would give me $10 billion to do it. I now control 50% of all power consumption in North America because I'm also going to do HVAC units, right? And I can actually engineer the green capabilities in there to actually do better power purchase consumption, better monitoring, and of course, smart capabilities in those, in those appliances. And that's how you actually build a model like that. And that's how you can win on a data model. Now, where does HPE fit into that? Their job is to bring that data together at the edge. They bring that together in the middle. Then they have the ability to manage that on a remote basis and actually deliver those services in the cloud so that someone else can consume it. >> All right, so if you, you're hitting on something that some people have have talked about, but it's, I don't think it's widely sort of discussed. And that is, historically, if you're in an industry, you're in that industry's vertical stack, the sales, the marketing, the manufacturing, the R&D. You become an expert in insurance or financial services or whatever, you know, automobile manufacturing or radio and television, et cetera. Obviously, you're seeing the big internet giants, those 10 trillion, you know, some of the market caps, they're using data to traverse industries. We've never seen this before. Amazon in content, you're seeing Apple in finance, others going into the healthcare. So they're technology companies that are able to traverse industries. Never seen this before, and it's because of data. >> And it's the collapsing value chains. Their data value chains are collapsing. Comms, media, entertainment, tech, same business. Whether you sell me a live stream TV, a book, a video game, or some enterprise software, it's the same data value stream on multi-sided networks. And once you understand that, you can see retail, right? Distribution, manufacturing collapsed in the same kind of way. >> So Silicon Valley broadly defined, if I can include, you know, Microsoft and Amazon in there, they seem to have a dual disruption agenda, right? One is on the technology front, disrupting, you know, the traditional enterprise business. The other is they're disrupting industries. How do you see that playing out? >> Well the problem is, they're never going to be able to get into new industries going forward because of the monopoly power that people believe they have, and that's what's going on, but they're going to invest in creating joint venture startups in other industries, as they power the tools to enable other industries to jump and leap frog from where they are. So healthcare, for example, we're going to have AI in monitoring in ways that we never seen before. You can see devices enter healthcare, but you see joint venture partnerships between a big hyperscaler and some of the healthcare providers. >> So HPE transforming into a cloud company as a service, do you see them getting into insurance as you just described in your little digital example? >> No, but I see them powering the folks that are in insurance, right? >> They're not going to compete with their customers maybe the way that Amazon did. >> No, that's actually why you would go to them as opposed to a hyperscale that might compete with you, right? So is Google going to get into the insurance business? Probably not. Would Amazon? Maybe. Is Tesla in the business? Yeah, they're definitely in insurance. >> Yeah, big time, right. So, okay. So tell me more about your book. How's it being received? What's the reaction? What's your next book? >> So the book is doing well. We're really excited. We did a 20 city book tour. We had chances to meet everybody across the board. Clients we couldn't see in a while, partners we didn't see in a while. And that was fun. The reaction is, if you read the book carefully, there are $3 trillion market cap opportunities, $1000 billion unicorns that can be built right there. >> Is, do you have a copy for me that's signed? (audience laughing) >> Ray: Sorry (coughs) I'm choking on my makeup. I can get one actually, do you want one? >> Dave: I do, I want, I want one. >> Can someone bring my book bag? I actually have one, I can sign it right here. >> Dave: Yeah, you know what? If we have a book, I'd love to hold it. >> Ray: Do you have any here as well? >> So it's obviously you know, Everybody Wants to Rule the World: Surviving and Thriving in a world of Digital Giants, available, you know, wherever you buy books. >> Yeah, so, oh, are we still going? >> Dave: Yeah, yeah, we're going. >> Okay. >> Dave: What's the next book? >> Next book? Well, it's about disrupting those digital giants and it's going to happen in the metaverse economy. If we think about where the metaverse is, not just the hardware platforms, not just the engines, not just what's going on with the platforms around defy decentralization and the content producers, we see those as four different parts today. What we're going to actually see is a whole comp, it's a confluence of events that's going to happen where we actually bring in the metaverse economy and the stuff that Neal Stephenson was writing about ages ago in Snow Crash is going to come out real. >> So, okay. So you're laying out a scenario that the big guys, the disruptors, could get disrupted. It sounds like crypto is possibly a force in that disruption. >> Ray: Decentralized currencies, crypto plays a role, but it's the value exchange mechanisms in an Algorand, in an Ether, right, in a Cardano, that actually enables that to happen because the value exchange in the smart contracts power that capability, and what we're actually seeing is the reinvention of the internet. So you think, see things like SIOM pop-up, which actually is creating the new set of the internet standards, and when those things come together, what we're actually going to move from is the seller is completely transparent, the buyer's completely anonymous and it's in a trust framework that actually allows you to do that. >> Well, you think about those protocols, the internet protocols that were invented whenever, 30 years ago, maybe more, TCP/IP, wow. I mean, okay. And they've been co-opted by the internet giants. It's the crypto guys, some of the guys you've mentioned that are actually innovating and putting, putting down new innovation really and have been well-funded to do so. >> I mean, I'll give you another example of how this could happen. About four years ago, five years ago, I wanted to buy Air Canada's mileage program, $400 million, 10 million users, 40 bucks a user. What do I want them in a mileage program? Well think about it. It's funded, a penny per mile. It's redeemed at 1.6 cents a mile. It's 2 cents if you buy magazines, 2 1/2 cents if you want, you know, electronics, jewelry, or sporting equipment. You don't lose money on these. CFOs hate them, they're just like (groans) liability on the books, but they mortgage the crap out of them in the middle of an ish problem and banks pay millions of dollars a year pour those mileage points. But I don't want it for the 10 million flyers in Canada. What I really want is the access to 762 million people in Star Alliance. What would happen if I turned that airline mileage program into cryptocurrency? One, I would be the world's largest cryptocurrency on day one. What would happen on day two? I'd be the world's largest ad network. Cookie apocalypse, go away. We don't need that anymore. And more importantly, on day three, what would I do? My ESG here? 2.2 billion people are unbanked in the world. All you need is a mobile device and a connection, now you have a currency without any government regulation around, you know, crayon banking, intermediaries, a whole bunch of people like taking cuts, loansharking, that all goes away. You suddenly have people that are now banked and you've unbanked, you've banked the unbanked. And that creates a whole very different environment. >> Not a lot of people thinking about how the big giants get disintermediated. Get the book, look into it, big ideas. Ray Wang, great to see you, man. >> Ray: Hey man, thanks a lot. >> Hey, thank you. All right and thank you for watching. Keep it right there for more great content from HPE's big GreenLake announcements. Be right back. (bright music)

>> Hi from Toronto, Canada. It's the CUBE covering Blockchain Futurist Conference 2018 brought to you by the CUBE. >> Welcome back to the live coverage. Day Two of the CUBE here in Toronto, Ontario in Canada for the untraceable Blockchain Futurist Conference wall-to-wall coverage Day Two. A lot of action going on. Tons of great content, tons of great after-hour networking. Just overall great vibe. In light of the market crashing, bitcoin stabilizing, some old coins getting crushed. We got it all covered for here. I'm John Furrier, your host for the CUBE, and our next guest is Nithin Eapen, who's the chief investment officer of Arcadia Crypto Ventures. Arcadia Crypto Ventures, welcome to the CUBE, good to see you. >> Hey good to see you too John. Thank you for having me here. >> Keep alumni in the know. Okay. So first of all, you're an investor in crypto. Everyone's running for the hills. A dip is happening, a crash, or some will say. Your perspective, what's happening in the market? >> See, happening in the market. So typically just like in any asset class, there was a huge run-up that happened very quickly. It didn't go up slow, alright? And the geeks were in early, the libertarians came in after that, then there were speculators. And the retail market also came in, and they all came in together for let's say the December after the November Thanksgiving week and everybody learnt about cryptos, they came in. Alright, the next set of guys haven't come in. Alright? So there's nothing for them there. Nobody's holding them there. And there were expecting the institutional investors to come in and that hasn't happened due to custody problems, ETF problems and all that stuff. Alright, it started going down. The weak hands are falling. The weak hands are keeping on falling and as with any technology, any bubble of people have come in, now they feel that okay the world is coming to an end and they are selling all their stuff. All the ICOs that have raised money in Ether, selling the Ether. All this together is pushing it down, and everybody's waiting for that next set of investors, or the, every 10 X, I mean, an asset goes up, there's a new set of guys who are supposed to come in, and this time it hasn't come in and we're waiting for that. >> You're on the panel here at the event. A lot of different panels, but one panel I watched you were on, you talked about the token model, people were holding Ether. It's kind of a debate, you know, and Bradley Rotter, another investor was saying, hey, there are too many tokens out there. You had different perspective, but one of the things I wanted to get your reaction to is that people who held on to the Ether lost their runway and it creates a harder road to hold. So people were converting to Fiat. This is a big issue. How are we going to get by this? This whole lot of Ether, more people are going to come in. The dynamics of investing in this token model, has it changed? How are you looking at it, and I'd say, how do you help startups? >> So regarding a lot of tokens, first thing is there are a lot of tokens out there. See that is going to happen. It's just like in the 1999, okay, a lot of websites and a lot of Internet companies, pet.com, everybody's an Internet company. Same way, everybody is a token. 95 to 99 percent of them are going to go away and the good ones will rise from those ashes, okay. Now regarding runway, a lot of these projects have pretty much raised enough money for 50 years of runway. So it has crashed one-fifth, okay, they have 10 years worth of runway. Typically, in the olden days, a small company with an idea or a MVP was max going to raise one million to two or three million, alright? And all of them anyway have that even after Ether has crashed. I'm saying, just don't panic okay? You still have 10 years worth of runway. Utilize that, build upon it because the high period may be over where you can just raise money on a white paper. You've got the money, build yourself. You promised your real investors I'm going to build this great thing. So this is where we're going to see the great founders to the average and the bad ones where they've hit a wall, they don't know what to do, they'll fold their hands and walk away. Really good founders, they're resilient. They will, no matter how hard they're pushed to the wall, they're going to come up with the product, you see, and they're going to try to meet customer demands. They're going to get through the feedback loop, check what the customer wants and start delivering it. >> So basically what you're saying is there's so much money being raised, and I agree with you by the way. If you go the classic venture capital route, if you had a Powerpoint or prototype or even a working product with recurring revenue, your serious preferred stock financing will be anywhere from three to 15 million. >> Oh my god. And that's high end. >> That's a high end. >> 15 million will be on the high end. Some cases are raising 50 million, some cases 70 plus million, so even if you cut that in half, it's still a better outcome on the first round. I agree at that, so I think that's interesting. The other one that you mentioned is that things are dynamic, that we're seeing here at the show is in the hallways, everybody's talking about flight-to-quality. And I was talking yesterday on the wrap-up of Day One that you can tell the good deals from the bad deals by is the venture architecture working for the coin, or is the coin working for the venture architecture. And so this flight-to-quality combined with how people are optimizing their build up is critical. >> Yes. >> Talk about some things that you're seeing with this flight-to-quality. Is there anything in particular? Is it blockchain? Is it token economics? Where's the quality deals from your perspective? >> I feel quality lies in the founder of this. The founding team, because the idea, if you really ask me what is an idea here? An idea is just like mental masturbation. Guys who sit there can come up with so many ideas. That's what ideas are, okay? Now taking these ideas to fruition, like building it. There's a capital raising part, okay? Now a lot of people are good at capital raising. They're raising money and a lot of capital coming in. That's awesome because you need capital to attract talent to the space because a lot of talent who are maybe in astrophysics or in mechanical engineering, you want that talent to come here and come with ideas and build the stuff. Okay, the capital has come in. Now once the capital has come in, you really have to build the stuff. Even after you build the stuff, you have to go find the customer right? You have to go and acquire customers and all these three things coming together are so hard in reality. And that's why the venture capital always give a little bit of money to make sure that these guys are not wasting the whole thing away, right? >> Well, the other thing I want to get in touch, get on to you is here is that, in the old days, Silicon Valley, you got to move there, the VCs were there. Now, talking about the global phenomenon, the capital formation is both inside the United States and outside the United States. Certainly inside the United States, you're starting to see the formation around traditional structures, security token, which is more like, it feels like a security, a more preferred financing model. Equity's now involved. Outside United States, a booming utility token market. Your thoughts on how that's progressing, still open, still crazy? What's your thoughts? >> So the capital model, the beauty that has happened today is, earlier, you had to pitch to two hundred VCs or three hundred VCs to get one guy to put money into it. Most of the time, they'll be wasting your time, alright? So you had to go to them to get a million. And you didn't have any other option. You couldn't get it from a small enthusiast of your project to give you five hundred bucks or a thousand bucks. So now, you have that option, okay. Now that option is being cut by regulation, by the STC and people like that coming in saying, oh you can't do that, it has to be a security token. Alright, let's make it a security token. The moment you make it a security token, my question is, can you raise money from outside? Are you stopping that? Then again it doesn't really make sense. You're cutting the small investor, the chance for him to buy into a good, okay? It was only the VCs like Sequoia, or somebody like that, who could access a deal like Google. Now we have a chance for something like Google to come up with the common man whose putting five hundred, like Ethereum. There was no venture capitalist or Wall Street who got involved in Ethereum. The real money was made by very common people who supported a decentralized world computer. >> All CVCs get it now, market entries or whoever's getting involved, starting to see VCs dabble in there. Has that changed the investment dynamic at all? >> It has because the VCs, they have this feeling they've missed out, right? So now they're putting in five and 10 million dollars into a project, valuing a project to three hundred million. It changes the dynamics because now all these guys, like, there are so many projects that are raising like a hundred million because the VCs, all these private investors, are giving 10, 15, 20 million. Like recently for example, they've raised a 300 million dollar fund. They can't invest 10 thousand to 50 thousand to 100 thousand, right? They have to push 10 million to manage the money. That is skewing stuff, and I personally am not very interested in those kinds of projects, because it's without a community power at that time, so I don't know how the token economics is going to be fruitful for the second investor, the third investor. >> And Block Tower, we found out yesterday, is also investing in putting a fund together, a venture fund. It's interesting. We'll see how that shakes out. One thing that is going to change is the dynamics. You mentioned community, obviously, a big part of that. Big community here at the Futurist event, Toronto. So they've got a Canadian culture, a lot of Ethereum DNA in this area. What are you hearing at this event? What are some of the things that you're hearing in the hallways? You've obviously been on some panels at this event, and you're highly networked. What are you hearing? What's, with your ears to the ground, what's it telling you? >> You were talking about Block Tower, yes, they're doing a venture fund. It's great. He's a very very smart investor and they're going to do very well. On the ground, so most of the questions right now are coming, so we've reached the point that okay, we have built up the blockchains or the bit coins. We want it to be faster, alright? Everybody's looking for scalability. Who can bring scalability? The EOS guys are out there. They are saying they can do, you know what, five thousand or 10 thousand or 100 thousand transactions per second. So scalability is a very very big thing. I personally consider something like interoperability, bigger. Interoperability in the sense, alright, so now you have these multiple chains. It's just like multiple types of phones. Now imagine you had an AT&T phone and you couldn't call the Verizon phone customer, alright? We're at that point. We have all these chains, there's Ethereum, there's One Chain, there's EOS. Okay, I've built, let's say, a distributor app, let's say it's a poker app on Ethereum. But I can't play with the guy who's on EOS right? What if he also wants to play poker in this poker app? Is there somewhere we can make this integrate and interoperable? Now to make it interoperable, now we have, if we go into details, there are assets, there are tokens on both sides. How can we transfer tokens from one chain to the other chain making sure there's no double-spend happening? >> I mean there's two things. That was the consumability, making it easy to use, one. And two, I think you're right on. Interoperability's huge. You got to have that. >> Interface, as you said. Interface is big. To make it simple, it's still the geeks. In geeks, a lot of people are using command lang prompts. You can't expect the common man sitting at home. It's just like email. Email was there from 1978. It's only when all these tools like, beginning '94, and the browser came in, that people started using it. So those things have to come in. >> A lot of work's got to get done. So many on the blockchain side. Well, great to have you on. Good to see you. Congratulations on your panels and this afternoon, you're doing a good job. Thanks for coming on. I appreciate it. >> Thank you so much, John. >> Any predictions by the way? >> Predictions, I don't know, I'm not a predictions guy. I just go with the market. >> Price of bitcoin 20 thousand? >> Oh I never get into those predictions. I never want to get it. I think that it's possible that the bear market can continue for a longer time based on the fact that the newer money cannot come in. It has happened before. Bitcoin has fallen so many times at the 70, 80 percent range and then it stayed stagnant for a year before the next round up came. >> And certainly we got work (inaudible). Thanks for coming on. Keep coverage here live in Toronto, Ontario. Keep coverage here with the untraceable Blockchain Futurist Conference here of two days. Day Two, keep coverage. We're back after this short break. Thanks for watching. (electronic music)

>> Live from Toronto, Canada, it's the theCUBE, covering Global Cloud and Blockchain Summit 2018. Brought to you by theCUBE. >> Hey, everyone. Welcome back to CUBE's coverage in Toronto for the Global Cloud and Blockchain Summit, part of the big event also happening for two days, Wednesday and Thursday, the Blockchain Futurist Conference, here in Canada. I'm John Furrier, Dave Vellante here. Next guest is the founder and CEO of DigitalBits.io as well as Fusechain and serial entrepreneur and also the mastermind behind this inaugural event. First time a cloud blockchain conference has come together, bringing the two communities together. Al, great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you for having me. Thank you for coming to Toronto, Canada. >> It's our pleasure. Certainly as you know, we love cloud. We cover all the big cloud shows. We're dominating that market in terms of coverage and access. And we just started covering blockchain in 2018 with theCUBE, although on SiliconANGLE since 2011 with the written word in journalism. But this is interesting. You are the brainchild behind this event, and I want you to explain why you came up with this event idea because this is the first time that you got two worlds coming together. You're bringing in the cloud DNA, and that can go back to like, classic networking and think big hosting providers, the Exodus and the Equinox of the world. These guys are the same guys who built YouTube's back end and Facebook. Large scale network guys with this new emerging blockchain world because there's some connections points, and it's super important, and no one's ever done that before. What's the motivation behind a cloud and blockchain summit? >> Well, if you think of the internet, all that data, all that traffic, substantial majority of it is flowing through data centers, infrastructure providers globally. And within many of those data centers you have cloud providers, whether it's cloud computing, SaaS, Software as a Service, cloud providers, you name it. And now we have upon us this emerging blockchain technology. Many are referring to it as Web3.0. And I'm obviously a big believer in that this is the next evolution of the internet. We got Internet1.0 in the 90's. We had Web2.0 with social sharing economy and so forth, and along the way, each step you had your first movers, your willing followers, and then the unwilling followed. It's been that powerful the last two occurrences that we saw with the evolution of the internet. Web3.0 is that next thing. First movers, willing followers, the unwilling. Every time you have this something very innovative, obviously there's a big engineering initially starts amongst, you know, a community of engineers, and then it starts to go mainstream. Obviously a lot happens in between conception and going mainstream. And if we look at the 90's, Linux played a substantial role in the acceleration of innovation. It really extracted, you know, it took a different approach to software, really leading open-source. >> It took down some proprietary incumbents - Unix. >> Absolutely, absolutely. And free and open-source software, but it still needed to be supported. Which version of Linux should enterprises embrace? And at that time, it was very important with what we saw emerge with things like Intel, IBM, Dell, HP, and so forth getting behind organizations like Red Hat and their version of Linux, now known as Red Hat Enterprise Linux. >> IBM put in a billion dollars into it. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Steve Woz, yeah. >> So with regard to that, you know, it was all about the hardware validating, right? These trusted vendors to the enterprise. And them kind of validating a company, or endorsing a company, in effect, like Red Hat, really helped provide a guiding light to the enterprise. Now it's not about hardware, it's about the cloud, right? Cloud computing providers and so forth. And in that ecosystem, it's not just AWS. It's not just Microsoft. There are many data center providers that have built a cloud computing offering that are supporting substantial financial institutions, substantial organizations within healthcare space insurance, and many, many other industries. So they play a very important role in supporting an enterprise, whether implementation, integration, and consumption of technologies, including new and emerging technologies. And so as we have, sort of, before us, this emergence of blockchain, obviously having lived in the cloud and infrastructure community for a number of years with that last company I had founded, know a lot of the key stakeholders. And even though I'm all in on blockchain, you know, I pop in every now and then in that world. What I found was two different extremes. You have CTO's and even CEO's of cloud computing organizations, and others within those organizations, totally high "Get It" factor. And you had the other extreme, multi-billion dollar cloud computing organizations, you know, data center organizations, where again, the leadership is still trying to figure it out, in some respects, not fully paying attention yet. And I saw that this is definitely emerging. Again, you'll have first movers, willing followers, and the unwilling. They're all going to get there. But it hadn't gotten there yet. And so with regards to this event, I saw a huge opportunity to really put something out there, allow it to ultimately take a life of it's own. There's a new organizer that's going to be coming forward and driving the ship with this event. But ultimately, there needed to be a forum, not just here in North America, but in every corner of the world, the Global Cloud and Blockchain Summit, providing this opportunity for that convergence, and for both communities to really share knowledge and accelerate, fill that gap. And I saw it's there. It is there. There's amazing things being spoken on stage as we sort of are sitting here, with leading innovators, and so forth, from both sides. There was an amazing keynote today by Anthony Di Iorio, one of the co-founders of Ethereum and founder and CEO of Decentral and Jaxx, really helping support the event today and making a contribution. His talk was phenomenal. That's kind of the thought behind it, and it's, you know, here we are. >> I want to pick up on something you said, for our audience, you know. I mean, for guys like you, Al, that are deep into it, you understand this very well. But you talked about Linux, and how, essentially, the Web was built on Linux. So if you were a Linux developer back in the day, and you wanted to "invest" in Linux, you didn't have a vehicle to do that. You could put your time in, you know? You could maybe join a company and maybe get some stock. But there was no way to directly invest in Linux. Well today, there is. With blockchain and cryptoeconomics, you actually can, whether it's tokenize your business or participate, you can buy tokens. And so it's a whole different incentive structure. And many in our audience are sort of new to this, kind of the unwilling, if you will. >> Yeah. >> And that's an amazing new way to create capital structures. >> And very powerful. I mean, prior to this tokenized revolution we're seeing here, it was a cool open-source project that as an engineer you wanted to be part of this, contribute your time, and quite often you would ask your employer to permit you to have 10%, 20% of your time to commit to these projects. Maybe you would even ask for that in your job interview. And you'd maybe get the thumbs up, you know? And so, your employer's, in effect, subsidizing your time to really contribute to projects and code that you're very passionate about. But if they got busy, economic cycles and what have you, and it's like, "You know what? We need you at 100% focus on your day job." All of a sudden, that community, that open-source community is losing perhaps a very valuable contributor, right? And there's really no way for that direct incentive from that project. And that's really what that is now. Projects can be created. You think of, you know, some blockchain's like an operating system, you now have an, you know, to use the Linux comparison, now let's say an operating system can have it's own incentive, a reward or compensation structure to really help attract engineers and other valuable contributors to not just give birth to a project, but help make it sustainable. >> Yeah. >> And, you know, eventually maybe you're quitting the day job because it's able to be free, open-source, and providing an enlightening self-interest. >> I'm getting some messages here, direct messages, listening to you talk. So I want to share them with you. One guy says, "Hey, Al. What's the deal with the different blockchains? How do I tell?" So I'm not an unwilling. I'm a wanna-believe. I'm not the front-end, but what do I pay attention to? And there's so many different chains. You got people promoting certain things. I don't know whose stats are real. You got two kids in a garage, >> Yeah. >> who just did an ICS. So the question is essentially what's the difference between all these chains? What do I have to look for? Is it latency? Who's solving these problems? What's the big deal, and how do I determine better chain from another chain? Are they all going to work together? >> Yeah. >> What's your thoughts? >> Things are moving incredibly fast right now. And it is difficult to keep up to speed. You know, maybe it was just bitcoin at one time and one chain to focus on. Then there was Ethereum and all these others. Now there's many, many more. So ultimately, it is about information, staying current with that information, doing your due diligence. But you really need to have a community that you're a part of, that you can, kind of, share in your evaluation and monitoring of what's new and emerging. >> So community's important. >> Very important, very important. Just say trusted advisors, trusted peers, and you kind of take a collective approach at this. Nonetheless, we're in this pioneering era, mass innovation happening. What's winning today, you know, may not necessarily be continuing to win tomorrow. But you really need to maintain a discipline, and take a peer approach to staying current. In terms of public chain, private chain, they're all going to play a role, and they are playing a role, in different use cases. There's clearly a use case for private chain within enterprise, within say, you know, trusted circle of supply chain participants. Maybe you want to bring some efficiencies to all that. >> So use case drives the chain. >> Yeah, absolutely. But public chain is a phenomenal phenomenon. Among other things that we hear a lot about it, it's given birth to the ICO. The new way of capital formation that is unbelievably awesome. The world has never seen anything like this, where. >> Explain that. Capital formation dynamic that you're referring to. >> Yeah, so the traditional way, whether it's in Silicon Valley or any other part of the world, you have an entrepreneur that maybe they haven't had a big exit where they can fund their own next venture on their own. You know. Smart intelligent people with a brilliant idea, and they're doing that friends and family route, right? The due diligence checklist isn't that long. It's like, you know what? Love my son. He's the smartest kid on the planet. You know, you give him a few dollars and a few other friends and family, this new emerging entrepreneur. And if there's evolution there, things are picking up traction and so forth, then maybe you're doing an angel round. And there's this sort of structured process that history's sort of define for us. And then from an angel round, you know, you have this early stage company emerging, and new milestones being reached, and then maybe there's a Series A venture capital round, and what have you. And then you have the, you know, the Series A, Series B, and so forth, right? The typical approach to things. A very regimented Silicon Valley has been a dominating force of the venture capital community, and that form of competition >> But the dynamics are different than the venture capital. >> Yeah, so that's the way that we've always, sort of, known, right? Many early stage companies, the process they go through. Many, many meetings behind closed doors, and so forth. >> Cloak and dagger, black box. >> Yeah, so concept of crowdsourcing, still beholden to the financial systems that're up there. How do you really foster community up there? And raise maybe a few million dollars? >> So what you're saying is is that it's easier to raise money now? Easier? >> It absolutely is. You have this new meeting of exchange where you have cryptocurrencies like Ether. And you're basically sharing your idea with the world, and all of a sudden, saying, "Hey, here's our token economics. We'd like to reach some capital." And then whether it's minutes, hours, or even weeks, you have capital coming to you from different corners of the world, and it's coming to you in seconds. Highly efficient. You have these universal currencies now emerging, and it's an amazing sensation, and it's a new form of capital formation, and with capital formation, you have innovation. So I believe that, you know, we're just going to continue to see an acceleration of innovation, globally happening, and not just in certain pockets of the world now, in many, many corners of the world. I mean what's happening in Asia's absolutely phenomenal in the blockchain space as well. It's not just interesting here in North America. In fact, in some respects even more interesting, depending on how you look at it. >> Describe what's happening in Asia. You guys talked about this last night in the fireside chat. >> Well, I mean some of the publicly available information is that you can just simply see, on many of the cryptocurrency exchanges out there, an insane amount of volume, more so than in any other corner of the world. And so you have a very active investor community up there, a trading community, token-buyer community, what have you. >> And where are the pockets? >> Very healthy. >> So it was China, and then things sort of shifted to Japan. >> Well, >> Where do you see the action? >> maybe where the centralized exchange in happening, but I think it's still a lot of the same people. It's not like it got shut down in a country, and those people just lost their desire. They just found an alternative means to continue to participate. >> Right. >> You know, South Korea, it's phenomenal. You have Hong Kong. You have Japan. You have Singapore, among many of the pockets. But then it's everywhere. I mean, you're meeting people from Vietnam, Thailand, India. They're all very active investor communities and utility token buyer communities. And it's very healthy. Yes, you have, you know, a correction every now and then in this market. But you have that with any sort of new, exciting innovation. But it continues to thrive up there. It's phenomenal. >> Yeah, you're seeing one of the main uses of bitcoin to buy alternative currencies. >> Yep. >> That's sucking huge amounts of volume. >> It's an easier currency. I mean, in a matter of seconds or minutes, you can have a currency go from a bedroom in Florida, you know, here in Toronto, to a project in Singapore, or vice versa, without going through bank. >> So again some more couple questions from the crowd. If you want to reach us, tweet us, either direct message or tweet @Furrier @DVellante. Happy to take your questions for the guest. But one says, "Do we buy now?" >> (laughs) >> Second was, "Do this side step the tariffs of the China, Japan, U.S. thing?" Obviously outside of the United States, we're the world power in the United States. But now that power is shifting. You see China and here in Canada, a lot of crypto-DNA here. So interesting. Your thoughts on buying? (chuckles) On the dip? Or crash? Or however you look at it? And then the international dynamic with China and Japan and others? >> So many are seeing it as a dip. I mean, the reality is, if this is new form of capital formation, it does share similar characteristics, nonetheless still to traditional or early-stage investing and venture capital, in many respects. Not every start-up succeeds. In fact, you know, over 90% traditionally don't make it. Even if they make it to a Series A round, they may not make it to a B round, right? And so, the fact that you have, some people kind of are referring to the Wild Wild West. I don't necessarily see it that way. It's just finding it's way, right? And it's going to get to a mature state. >> Well I think people look at the bubble, and they think Wild Wild West, but the interesting thing about it, you know, we talked about it off camera last night, around international is, and no one really knows what the STEEMs will be. This is going to be a completely different landscape than anything we've seen before, whether it's standards or execution. And I hear the argument all the time of "Oh, it's unregulated!" It's really the United States that's taking a more regulatory approach, you know, the SEC is essentially scaring straight everybody and saying, >> Well they're trying to figure it out. >> Well they're trying to figure it out, but also they've kind of slows things down, the process. But that being said, it might not have to be formally regulated. Because you mentioned Linux. The role of self-governing communities is a very interesting dynamic. No one's actually said and analyzed what a regulatory regime, globally, would look like, if you factor in, kind of, the open source concepts, with self governance because communities are very efficient, and we got money involved. >> Yeah. >> It can be even more efficient. That's called a marketplace. >> You know, people have disposable income, and they decide what they want to do with that disposable income. You go to a restaurant, you go buy some groceries, you invest, you maybe buy some commodities, right? And where we put that money, the value we had that we wish we could exchange for something else, some of it goes into some regulatory worlds and some doesn't. I want to go buy some you commodities at the grocery store. I mean, it's a free and open transaction. There's no KYC or AML per se and that happens. >> But food has to get to the supermart. My point is. >> Marketplaces don't require regulation. >> Exactly my point. That's my point. >> Or additional red tape, right? But where we put other capital deaths. So whether you're buying share certificate, early stage investing. There's SEC filings, perhaps. >> Who regulated Linux? >> Who regulated Linux? I mean-- >> (laughs) >> It was self governing. >> Benevolent dictatorship with Torvalds. >> But the capital formation was different in the Linux industry. >> Yeah. >> It was the more traditional path that you just described, and so those were-- >> But I guess what I'm saying is that, you know, have a token. Some token could represent a commodity. Some token could represent a security. So there needs to be that distinction and a framework of clarity so that we understand what needs to be regulated and going on that path. And so I think that's, kind of, part of finding it's way over the past 12 months or so is this distinction. Some countries were very quick to say, "Here's a framework.", like Switzerland. That clarity here is taking some time here in Canada and the U.S. >> Yeah, and I think they should let things foster and incubate a bit because you don't know the gestation period of real technology, and I think I'm cool with community-oriented governance Because people will lose a boatload of case; some will gain. But that'll all sort itself out. And with good community involvement, it'll happen faster. I just find that a better path. I mean, some people can't stay with that tension. They overreact. Some people can't handle the risk. But you got to see how it plays out at some level. >> You definitely do. But there's also an opportunity for self-governance. You know, you have-- There's the regional internet registries, right? So you have ARIN RIPE in Europe and so forth. You know, if you want an IP address and so forth, there's a self-governing body that defines policy and how these things are going to be deseminated here in North America. The government, kind of, sets off with that. >> The DNS system. >> You know, absolutely. This is valuable-- >> Yeah. You know, you have national security with internet, but how IP's are deseminated, it's self-regulated. So at the end of the day, if the community doesn't decide to say, "Hey, some of these things, well let's define self-governing bodies." And if they can play a great role in it all, fanastic. Otherwise, then maybe the government steps in" If that's the type of country it is where they like to engage. >> Al, everyone's reimagining new opportunities with blockchain and crypto. You've certainly got good venture with DigitalBits. We'll certainly have a conversation later here this week about that. I know you got to get back for a panel that you're going to go on now. So thanks for coming on. And congratulations on the inaugural Global Cloud and Blockchain Summit. Looking forward to talking more about it. So theCUBE live in Toronto for coverage of the Global Blockchain event here with cloud. And then tomorrow kicks off the big show here, the Blockchain Futurist, about 2,000 attendees. That's really going to be connecting the dots of the future. TheCube will be there as well. Stay with us for more live coverage after this break.

>> Announcer: From New York, it's theCUBE, covering Blockchain Week. (light, upbeat music) Now, here's John Furrier. >> Hello everyone, I'm John Furrier. We're here on the ground in New York City for consensus 2018's Blockchain Week. I'm here with David Siegel who's the CEO of the Pillar Project, also the author of the Token Economics Handbooks, entrepreneur, mentor to companies. Thanks for coming on. >> Sure. Thank you John. Great to be here. >> So, I'm excited to talk with you, because I've been saying all week I love token economics. It's a core part of the business model, disruption. >> Right. >> It's part of the key formula where Blockchain shines. It's where the rubber meets the road as some say. So, let's jump in. >> Sure. >> In a, how much is being discussed here about that. I mean, obviously ICOs are well known and people are looking at that road, but token economics, the importance of it. >> First, I think it's important to understand we're at the very beginning of this. It's a steep learning curve. We have these old model T tokens called the ERC20 Token, which we will get rid of and build better things. We have models that are mostly based on old, you know whenever there's a new technology, we first imitate the old stuff until we see what the new. So one of the really exciting new things that's come out of this is effectively the Ethereum model, where you raise some money. You build a system, and it's open source. It's free. Anyone can take it and do anything with it, but it requires its own token to work. And the people who sell those tokens, you sell about 70% to your funders. And that creates the economy, but you hold about 30% back, and as the value goes up, as the network affect kicks in, and as these things rise in value, your 30% funds the project indefinitely after you run out of the first. So that's a pretty exciting model. That's what I call sort of basic Tokenomics. You have no business model. You have no income model. You're totally open source, but your token powers your platform, and you have some tokens in your back pocket. >> Yeah, and the general form that you see is 70 30, roughly. Is that just a pattern? >> That's about, that's normal. Now, that in a single sale, and what we see now in ICO land is pre-sale and then the big sale. I think we'll go to a more staged model, because I think too many companies are over-funded, too many projects are over-funded. 240 million dollars for status, maybe we don't need that much to start a project with a white paper. So, I think we're, I hope we'll go to a staged model. >> Explain stage model. >> You might sell 20% and raise what do you need to get to first base, three million to show a minimum viable product and get traction. >> Yeah, it makes sense. >> You know, what projects need more than three, maybe four? I mean, you don't need 20 million. And then you do that, but now you've got 80% of tokens in reserve. so now things are going well. Your token has gone for let's say five cents to 20 cents. You can sell another 20%. >> So the funding of the platform is that token economics kick in, per your other example, that 30% 70 goes raise and 30% funds the platform indefinitely. >> Yeah, that's typical. >> If you do the staged approach, what you're saying is there's more power in reserve to fund the platform. Cause if you can, if you get to first base, you might get to second. >> I think investors have been too gullible. And they're looking at these 50, 80, hundred million dollar raises and going oh me too. I have fear of missing out. I want to get in on that too. That's the big deal of the day. That is the one that's probably going to have lousy returns, right. These things are over-funded and not, there's no real give and take with the market. >> Yep. >> You know to get, like, nothing ever really works the way you plan. No business plan is ever worth anything. Think of, you know, Google, Apple, Microsoft. Their first business plans are for something else. (John laughs) So, find groups of people that you can give money to, not too much, get to first base, get some traction. Make something, listen to the market, continue to, you know, build what people want. And then your token will rise, and then you sell the next-- >> So I got to ask you. >> You know what. It's very much like venture capital, right. We do it in stages. >> It's pragmatic. It's the right way, I think an investor and the entrepreneur, by the way, your point is also valid, because like in venture capital, if you take on too much money, you could actually fail. You're not optimized, and we've seen that before. >> It's not good allocation of capital now. We've got a lot of innovation to do. Wouldn't it be great if we could do a thousand projects at like two or three, four million dollar level and see which ones come out of that? And then give them more. >> David, let's walk through a use case. So I'm a entrepreneur or I'm a growing business, and I maybe bootstrapped it or maybe took a little bit of the seed funding and did some cloud technology, open source, and whoa I've got a product. And I go, you know what, the growth strategy for me as a company is use token economics, because I got to decentralize use fit there. >> Sure. >> And I see a way to scale and grow with tokens. How should I set up my token economics? I got security tokens. I got utility tokens. Do I do a (crosstalking) purpose vehicle? It just sounds so complicated. >> I'm making funny faces John, because I see too many tokens, where you know, we always say, and I'm a token designer, well, what does a token do. Well the answer is it raises money. That is the number one answer. It raises money. Well, does it actually do anything for the token holders? Well, I'm not sure. >> Maybe down the road. >> It gives you access to the system. Is that a good answer? So, I think actually we should be turning most of these token sales into equity sales. And that's a different kettle of fish. So, I honestly think people misunderstand the ICO concept. And they should, we should think of ICOs as we know them today as project finance, not corporate finance, not company, not start up finance. Start up finance should be done with equity. >> That's a great point. >> Equity is something you hold very dear. There's only a hundred percent of it. You sell it only if you need to to get to the next level. And equity means your shareholders are along for the ride. They may have to vote you out of your job at some point. >> it's happened to me before. Happened to me before. That's venture capital. >> You may be acquired. You may, any number of things can happen to equity. And project finance is different. So, the Pillar Project is an open source project. It's a non-profit foundation in Switzerland. No one owns it. It can't be bought. Our goal is to do one project that we said in the white paper. We are on track to do that, but if for some reason we couldn't do that, I think the money should go back to the people who funded your white paper, not some random ride off in the hay. >> David, take a minute to talk about the Pillar Project. I was going to get to that. Let's go to that. What's the Pillar Project about? How did this come to life? >> Sure. >> What's the current status? >> So the Pillar Project is a good example of an open source non-profit project that uses Tokenomics and is not a company and has no equity. We have a token that will give you access to our wallet, which is coming this summer. And the wallet's meant to be, initially just a cryptocurrency wallet, like many others, but with so many differences John. So, for example there will be a name look up, an address book, and you'll find me by name, and you'll send me tokens, currencies by name, or you'll trade with me by name. You'll never see an ether address. You'll never see a Bitcoin address, no fishing, no hacking, no whacky cut and paste errors and mistakes. For example, the Blockchain Explorer will be built into our wallet, so as you send me something or trade something, you'll be getting status information all the time. You'll never go to a Blockchain Explorer. All these nice things are built in. We have lots of features for your mom to make it easy for her to understand and keep it very simple. >> So you've abstracted away some of the complexities. >> We've added complexity on the back end to do the services that make the front end very simple. >> Okay, got it, and what's current status of the project funding wise. >> We'll be shipping the first. Well, we raised money last July. We had a 20 million dollar funding last July. That has gone up, because ether has gone up. We got about 50 people full time. We're in London. >> So you're at first base or second base? >> We'll be on first base in July. We've got to get our product out the door. >> It's the wallet. >> It's a wallet to start with, but also it will help you manage your personal data. It will help you be GDPR compliant. We'll have an exchange, and we'll be doing equity ICOs. We'll be doing, in the wallet, we'll be doing, for example, with the utility ICO, you'll issue your token, you'll sell it to people. They'll buy it in the wallet, and then trading will be immediate. You'll be listed, everything right there. Don't move stuff around. We're trying to create a place that's safe for consumers. >> Got it. Alright, I love this concept about open source. And, it's kind of threaded. Some people are open source guys, like me and you who have seen that movie go from in a radical second tier citizen to primary tier power in the world. As Blockchain takes a community focus, we're seeing the same business model that made Red Hat very famous, that's powering the Linux Foundation. This notion of projects. >> Yeah. >> And in open source, it's a distinction between project and product, upstream projects, a community, downstream products. Downstream activity is where people productize the project. >> Yes. >> I see a pattern happening in this world where we're starting to see some of that. >> Interesting, okay. >> Your thoughts on this, because that's Ethos has proven, this world has got a lot of growth to it. Are we seeing this open source ethos and principles, architecting in some of the successful crypto projects? >> I would take this productization analogy pretty far, because it's true in the profit world too. It's true with startups often do this as well. It's a service. You get better at it. You productize it. That's pretty common. So I think that's part and parcel of just solving customer needs and then scaling, right. The non-profit thing or the open source thing is different, because you can't make money on your open source thing. You've got to find another way, right. And here in Blockchain world, we're using scaling effects and tokens. So let's go to Tokenomics, where you can start an ecosystem fresh with a token that has no value. And Ether had no value on day one, right, almost no value. And through network effect and use and the fact that it's a limited number. The limited number's important. The limited number makes it so that it's scarcity, right. It's got value to people who can see oh later it might be worth more. So you got both natural buyers and speculators coming into a system. And this is what's giving the SEC a hard time, because they can't see whether it's... >> They don't understand it. >> Is it a security or is it a gym membership? >> It's a serious problem, because they don't understand it. And they're causing a lot of, they're stunting a lot of growth in my opinion. But the thing about token economics is what you're getting at, and this is where I trying to squint through the noise. I understand in an infrastructure web one dot O. You got URLs. You got DNS. You have infrastructure. >> Yeah. >> Google has cost per click. All that apparatus doesn't work for network effects. So if you look at network effects as being the main value proposition in most of these opportunities, why were we using E-commerce stack, an old model, because how do you measure networks? Tokens are becoming and wallets are becoming a key infrastructure. I see this coming. >> Yes. >> And I see the network effect tokens becoming both an instrumentation vehicle and a transactional currency opportunity. So, this is a dynamic that Blockchain could really and tokens... >> So I think the huge opportunity John is that instead of fake news and fake everything and fragile DNS systems and things that are centralized, we can decentralize things now with a token at the center that puts skin in the game. And a great example is science. You know we do science pretty badly. It's whoever can get budget for whatever whacky project. And if we had a betting, a side bet system, where people could bet on the outcome of projects, even when you propose them, the people who make the decisions of whether to fund these things could look at the odds first of what the crowd thinks. And if the crowd is right about the outcome, the winners take the money from the losers. And this skin in the game concept is being used... >> Yeah, it's a marketplace. The market dynamics of what you just said I think is very important. This changes the evaluation structure based upon new information. >> So, the price of fake news is almost zero. And we saw that in the last election. We see that in Facebook everyday. We see that on the front page of the New York Times. The price of fake news is close to zero. If it costs you money that it, when it, turns out your stuff is fake, if you have to put up money alongside your news, and then we find out it's fake, and you lose it, that will change things. >> Yes. >> So the skin in the game tokens, and you can actually google skin in the game tokens and learn a bunch of interesting models is what's coming next. >> Well, we have to bring you on board theCube project that we're starting. We're tokenizing our platforms, and we think about this all the time. >> Yeah. >> It's very cutting edge. David, really great to have you on. Talk about the book. Where can we find it? Are you on Medium? >> One quick thing. You know, we're going to have token camp coming up in Lithuania. We've got a one week workshop and un-conference in Vilnius, Lithuania. I know that sounds like nowhere. >> What is that? What's the date? >> It's July 15th to 22nd. It's free. Pillar's paying for it. It's at a resort. We're taking over a resort with crazy crypto people, skin in the game tokens, token camp. We've got a business agility camp for entrepreneurs, for investors, for coders. We're going to do, in fact we're, I can just announce right now that we're doing a hackathon with Radix, an incredible new Blockchain and a bunch of interesting people. Lex Okland will be there, Venay Gupta. We're going to have learning, learning for seven days. >> That's at a resort. >> It's at a resort in Lithuania. >> So it's all one compound. >> Yeah, we're taking it over. And there will be a little golf. But it's good for families. We did it last year. >> I checked it out. It's got a lot of lake there too. You got a lake. You got golf courses. >> It's going to be really fun. And we did it last year, and people were learning until one o'clock in the morning. >> What's the capacity you're looking at for that event? >> 500 people. >> So intimate. It's a very intimate event. >> It should be perfect. We're going to be blasting out. You should come. We're going to be blasting out on 4K. We've got enough bandwidth to send to YouTube and to wherever else you want to distribute video. You could be part of the media center. >> Awesome, well David Siegel, great to have you on. Final question, your take away from Blockchain Week. Obviously, new entrants are going to, new actors are coming into the system, community's booming. It's still tight knit, but now you have finance. You have tech and you have developers all coming together. Your thoughts of the show this week, Blockchain Week. >> Yeah, one thing, the demos are pretty lame in general, I think. We still aren't paying much attention to user experience at all. >> Yep. >> I think the enterprise guys have a lot to learn, because they're kind of playing their normal enterprise game. And it doesn't look so good here. >> Yeah, Jace was talking about the Blockchain washing. (David laughs) Basically, putting a Blockchain-- >> We added Blockchain to this enterprise project and look. >> Yeah, is that a real dynamic in your opinion? >> I think they're figuring it out. I think some of the academic and some of the white paper stuff I've seen is okay and commercializing it. They're on the path to learning how to commercialize it. But they're not part of us. They're not, they'll never be crypto-anarchists, okay fine. But they don't really seem to get us and to be part of it. They're, it's amazing to see a conference where IBM, Microsoft, you know these other big names, are deloyed, are, like, in their own little pockets on the side, and no one's paying. >> John: It's a toe in the water for them. >> They're not paying much attention, because you go in there, and it's the normal marketing jargon and brochures. And it doesn't feel like they're really engaging. >> Yeah. >> I'd love to see more engagement with our community. >> And I think they got to really get engaged in. The good news is, for IBM at least, they're part of the Linux Foundation and Hyperledger Project. So, we're seeing some open sourcedness there, I mean. >> I'd like to see more thought leadership, more real, you know, publish some papers. Come to our conferences and give us some substance. >> Well, I mean, I talked to Michael Dell and Pat Gelsing for instance, and, you know, they are into Blockchain. Michael Dell's watched watched Oslo's videos. He'll probably watch this video. They're learning. And the statement is what they're doing is they're giving it to their R and D teams, so office of the CT. They're not really, so it's very academic, to your point. They haven't really operationalized the ethos and product. >> You know what? >> It's time for experiments. There's no way you're going to blockchain your whole company, your whole supply chain. It is time for experiments, and it is time for guys like Michael Dell to jump in and say we are-- >> What's your advice to Michael? What would you tell him to do? >> It's time for experiments. We're going to do some things. We're going to try some things. We're going to partner up. The Hyperledger stuff, you know, try more than that. Don't just be, go into meetings and summits and top down. Try some bottom up stuff of empower your employees, Michael. You're not Michael, but I'm telling you (John laughs) Michael empower people to try some things. They might even not be... They might be quasi-legal, but if it's an experiment, you're going to learn something. And then you can talk to the lawyers. Don't have the lawyers and the management say what the program is. >> Cause that'll put it in a box. >> They won't get it. >> They won't get it. They'll stop the action. >> They won't find that-- >> Ask for forgiveness, not permission. >> Ask for, go do it. Go build. Get, hire some crazy crypto people, and tell them to look for inefficiencies in your whole operation and cut them down by 90%. >> David, great conversation. We could go for another hour. You're going to be a regular, I can tell, on theCUBE. When we do our live format, we're going to certainly have you back. Keep in touch. >> Sure. >> I'm John Furrier here at Blockchain Week in Consensus as wrapping up the day three of coverage. I'm John Furrier. Thanks for watching. Be right back. (light, upbeat music)

(bright music) >> Hello everyone, welcome to a special Cube Conversation here, in the Palo Alto studios, for theCUBE, I'm John Furrier, the founder of SiliconeANGLE Media and theCUBE, and cohost of theCUBE. My next guest is Adrian Scott, who is the CEO of Soma Capital and Head of Technology of decent.bet. You can get the idea of that going to be all about, but, industry legend-- >> Yeah. >> Star of the big screen, good to see you, thanks for comin' in. >> Thank you John, it's great to see you. >> I'm glad I wanted to talk to you, because I know you've been doing a lot of traveling, you've been living in Panama, and overseas, outside the US, mainly around the work you've been doing on the crypto side, obviously Blockchain and with the start of decent.bet, lot of great stuff, but congratulations on a successful initial coin offering! >> Thank you. >> Great stuff, but you're also notable in the industry, initial investor in Napster, our generation, first P2P, the first renegade, you know, break down the movie business, but the beginning of what we're now seeing as that decentralized revolution. But you've seen many waves of innovation. You've seen 'em come and go. But this one in particular, Blockchain, decentralized internet, decentralized applications, crypto. Pretty awesome, and lot of young guns are coming in, a lot of older, experienced, alpha entrepreneurs are coming in like yourself, and, we're lookin' at it too. What's your take on it? I mean, how do you talk people that are like, "Well, hey, this is just a scam on the ICS site, "is this real, is it a bubble?" Share your vision on what this is all about, this whole mega-trend, crypto, decentralized. >> And I'll also add, in addition to what you mentioned, the other neat thing here is just the global nature of it. Because we're so used to being Silicon Valley-centric, and having to dig around for funding here, and also, looking only at talent that would move here, whereas with this whole new industry, it's very global, there's global teams, international teams, and, some of the Silicon Valley folks are just struggling to stay relevant, and stay in the game, so that's a fascinating aspect to this new revolution as well. >> And also, the thing I love about this market, it's very efficient, it takes away inefficiencies, in venture capital right now, and private equity being disrupted, that's where the arbitrage is, hence the ICO bubble, but, there is real, legit opportunities, you have Soma Capital, you're an investment fund, that you're doing token investments on. The global nature is interesting, I want to just ask here about this, because, my view is, it changes valuation, it changes valuation mechanisms, it changes the makeup of the venture architecture, it makes up on how people recruit teams, the technology used, and with open source, I mean, this is a first-time view at a new landscape. You can't take a pattern match, model, to this, your thoughts. >> Agree completely, and the efficiency you mentioned, applied to teams, and surfacing engineering talent, and the mathematical minds that can handle crypto internationally, the formation of teams internationally online is actually something special as well, so, with Decent Bet, our team, our founding team includes folks from the US, Panama, Australia, as well, who met up, in a Facebook chat group! And that's how they initially connected, and they didn't know each other physically, before this connection online, and that led to this project, Decent Bet, and ICO, and so on. So it's-- >> You created value from essentially a digital workforce, but, I mean, it reminds me of, like in the old days, you'd chat, and it wasn't a lot of face-to-face, but then now there's video gaming culture, you know, you come in, "Hey, you want to play a game," people don't even know each other, and get a visual, and also an immersive experience with each other. This is now the application for entrepreneurial equations, so this kind of gaming, the game is startups! So how are you looking at this, and how are you investing in it, what are some of the things, and what can people learn from what we're seeing in this new game-ified, if you will, you know, world of starting companies? >> I think one of the things you alluded to there has really become visible, which is the importance of video, as a medium, and I'm still, absorbing and adjusting to that myself. For example, we do video communications, we do conversations at Decent Bet, of the founding team, and, it really connects to the community, and it's so important, and I'm still absorbing it, like I mentioned, 'cause I'm just so used to publishing articles that are very clearly written, and detailed, and so on. We just did an AMA video, an Ask Me Anything video, in Las Vegas, with the executive team, and it went for 80 minutes, answering the questions, that the community had all submitted! And I just try and imagine that five years ago, it's new way of relating-- >> 'Cause there was no blogging, link back, the only thing you could do in blogging. >> Yeah. >> And then write a perfect blog post, or white paper. >> Exactly. >> And that was who you were. >> Yeah. >> Not anymore, it's more community driven. >> Exactly, and that video as a piece of it, has become so, so important, as a way of communicating the character of the team, and-- >> Before we get into decent.bet, I want to drill those, I think it's a great use case, and again, congratulations on great work there. I want to ask you about something that I've been fascinated with, because I obviously, our generation, we grew up on open source when it was second-class citizen, now it runs the whole world, as first-tier, first-class citizen in software world. The role of the community was really important in software development, 'cause that kept a, it kept a balance, there was governance, was consensus, these are words that you hear in the crypto world. And now, whether it's content and or ICO, the role of the community, and certainly, areas that's out of control in the ICO site, people are cracking down on certainly, like you see Facebook and Twitter trying to do something, but you can't stop the wisdom of the crowd. The role of the community in this crypto, decentralized market, ICOs and whatnot, is super important. Can you share your thoughts, and color commentary on why the community's so important, how do you deal with it (laughs), any best practices, either through scar tissue, or successes, share your thoughts on this. >> Oh yeah, it's totally become a factor, and it's 24/7, right? So, when you are running a crypto project, you need your community management team to be there, in the community channels, 24/7, you need to have somebody there, and they need to be at a certain level that they can handle the challenging questions! And we've definitely had moments where, we have people who try to create FUD, potentially, you know, and bring up stuff, and bring it up again later and whatnot, and we need to be proactive, so when questions come up, we were there to be able to explain, "Okay, here's where you can see this on the Blockchain. "You can verify it yourself." And sometimes, it happens when the team is just about to get on a plane (laughs), and be out of internet communication for a while, so, it's a real challenge, and there's been the voice of experience, on that. >> So talk about how you guys connect, because obviously, being connected is important with community access, but also, with connection, increases the service area for hacks, are you guys carrying five burner phones each, how do you handle email, how have you guys dealt with the whole, you know, there is a lot of online activity, certainly, people trying to do some spear phishing, or whatever tactics there are. Telegram has been littered with a lot of spoofing, and what not, so, all this is going on, that you got to have access communication. But there's a safety component that could have really big impacts to these businesses, that aren't tokeners, because, hacking can be easy if you don't protect yourself. >> We really like Signal app, as a communications medium, there's a new one, starting to grow now, called Threema, which is pretty interesting. Telegram, is just a real challenge, and it's unfortunate, because it's now become this metric. >> How many people are active on your channels-- >> That investors like to look at the size of the Telegram group, but we don't actually have a Telegram group for Decent Bet. And we've used Slack, we are going to be rolling out a internally hosted Slack replacement soon based on Rocket.Chat, we really like Rocket.Chat. As you mentioned, there are spear phishing, we do see that, and, one of the nice things is, a few years ago, you had trouble convincing a team to take security seriously! But you know, when you have team members who may have lost $10,000 in a hack-- >> Or more! >> Or more, you know, there's no question that this needs to be a priority, and everybody buys in on it. So that is one net positive out of this. >> Well let's talk about Decent Bet, fascinating use case, it's in the gaming area, gaming as in like betting, my friend Paul Martino invested I think in DraftKings, one of those other companies, I forget which one it was. In the US, there was regulatory issues, but, you know, outside the US where I think you guys are, there's not as much issue. Perfect use case for tokens, in my opinion. So, take a minute to explain Decent Bet, what you guys are all about, and talk about the journey of conception, when you guys conceived it, to ICO. >> Yeah. Decent Bet was founded about a year ago, by the CEO Jedidiah Taylor, who developed an interesting idea, and plan, so, the neat thing about Decent Bet is, first of all, you have all the benefits of the Ethereum Blockchain, in terms of verifying, transactions, and verifying the house's take. Additionally, what Decent Bet does is distributes all the profits of the casino back to the token-holders. 95% goes as proportionally, and then 5% is awarded in a lottery, so there's no profit for any Decent Bet entity, it all goes back to the tokenholders. So you use the token to play, by gambling, but you can also use your token to convert into house shares, for a quarter, and participate in-- >> So the house always wins, that a good model, right? >> Yes. >> You could become the house, through the tokens. >> Exactly, so, the motto we use is our house is your house (laughs). >> Don't bet against the house. >> Yeah. >> Alright so, I love the gambling aspect of it, I think that's going to be a winner. Tech-involved, ICO process bumps, learnings, things you could share with folks? >> Yeah, so, on the technology, one of the neat things we are doing is, we do offer a slots game, which is a primary component of online gambling, and casinos, a pretty dominant piece of the action. But, if you are going to do a simple slots game on the Blockchain, and wait around for blocks to be mined, you're not going to have a great experience. 'Cause you're going to be waiting around, more than you're going to be clicking that button. So, what we use is a technology called state channels, which allows us to do a session, kind of on a side channel, so to speak, and through this state channel, at the end of the session, you post back the results. So you get the verifiability of the Blockchain, but without the delay. So that's a major difference. >> That's off chain, right? >> Yeah. >> Or the on chain is off chain. >> It's kind of-- >> So you're managing the league, to see the chain, so you still experience, and then get to preserve it on the chain. >> Exactly-- >> Okay. >> In terms of the ICO experience, we initiated the ICO end of September, ran for a month, raised more than 52,000 Ether, so very productive ICO process, but with actually some interesting details, so, the ICO structure limited the amount that a particular address could purchase, in the first phases, to 10,000 worth, and then 20,000 dollars worth, with the idea of getting the tokens into the hand of, of people who are going to potentially use them for betting, not just-- >> The more the merrier for you, not, no one taking down allocations, big players. >> Exactly. >> Or whales. >> Not just for the whales, take all, kind of thing. So, that was a interesting structure, and-- >> And that worked well? >> Yeah! >> Alright, talk about the dynamic of post-ICO, because now you guys are building, can you give an update on the state of where you guys are at with the product, availability, how that's going, 'cause obviously you raised the capital through the ICO, democratize it if you will through clever mechanism, which is cool, thanks for sharing that, now what happens? Now, what's going on? >> Yeah, I mean, I think we're doing pretty well in terms of hitting milestones, and showing progress compared to a lot of projects, we released our test net, with slots, and then sportsbook, at the beginning of January, and mid-January, for sportsbook. And, we also did some upgrades with our wallet, we released that, for some enhanced usability, and handling during high peaks on the Ether network, Ethereum network. And then, also, our moving to main net. So we did some newer versions of the test net-- >> When did the main net come in? >> Main net is coming out end of April, and we're on track with that. >> Great, awesome. Congratulations, congratulations on a great job, 52,000 Ether, great raise there, and awesome opportunity. Soma Capital. >> Mm-hmm. >> You're investing now, what do you look for for deals, there's more money chasing good deals now, as we can see, has been a flight to quality obviously. Great global landscape still, what are you looking for? And advice to folks who are looking to do a token, sale, what's your-- >> Big thing we look for are real projects, so (laughs), and they're not that many out there, so we do look for a real use case that makes sense, because, there's a lot of folks out there just sticking Blockchain tag onto anything. And it's not just-- >> Like Kodak for instance. >> Yeah. >> Kodak's the prime example. >> Yes. There are projects out there doing interesting things, Guardium is doing some neat things in terms of 911 response, and opening that up, and creating an alternative to government services. There's WorkCoin, which is-- >> Do you invest in Guardium? >> Yeah, in Guardium, yeah. >> I interviewed them in Puerto Rico. >> Okay, great. >> Great project. >> So very interesting, I was recently giving a talk at a university in Guatemala, and, the students there at business school, it really resonated, the message there, to them, about okay, government 911 is maybe not the ultimate solution for getting help when you need it. >> Well I think, there's a lot of this AI for a good concept, going to Blockchain for good, because, you're seeing a lot of these easy, low-hanging fruit applications around these old structural intuitions. And that's where the action is, right, I mean, do you agree? >> Yeah, yes. And the other thing we're looking at is not just Blockchain. So I really like talking about the field more as crypto, and, I have a little video I did on calling it kind of decentralized, crypto-enabled applications, or platforms. So, beyond Blockchain, we have DAGs, Directed Acyclic Graphs, one interesting-- >> Like Hashgraph. >> Yeah, Ha-- >> Hashgraph's a DAG, isn't it? It's kind of a DAG, Hashgraph? >> Yeah, so, I'm not a huge fan of Hashgraph, one that I do like is called Guld, G-U-L-D, which is, again, thinking beyond the Blockchain. 'Cause we get so tied into Blockchain, Blockchain, Blockchain-- >> What does beyond the Blockchain mean to you? Thinking beyond the Blockchain, what does that mean to you? >> So, the proof of work process, the mining process, the creating new blocks process, is one way of doing things. But we have all these other things going on in crypto, like the signing process, and so on, and so, you can use those in a DAG, a different architecture than just this mining new blocks, you know, mental model. And so, that can be used for different use cases, for publishing, for group consensus, and so on. And so, Guld is an example of a project where it looks like there is something real there, and that's a very interesting product. >> Advice for folks that are looking at tokeneries, because, again, we've said this on theCUBE many times, people know, I'm beating this drum, you got the startups, that see an opportunity, which is fantastic, and then on the end of the spectrum, you got the, "Oh, shit, we're out of business, "let's pivot, throw the Hail Mary, put Blockchain on it, "crypto, and get an ICO, and get some going." And then you've got these growth companies that are, either self funded and or growing, that have decentralized kind of feel to it, it has an architecture that's compatible with tokenization. >> Yeah. >> So we see those three categories. Do you agree, am I missing anything? In terms of the profile? And which ones do you like? >> Well, I think one thing that we need to look at, in each of those cases, is decentralization actually happening, in the project? And are people actually thinking about decentralization. Because, it can be scary for a traditional company! Because, if it truly becomes decentralized, you're not controlling it anymore. And so, that is-- >> If you're based on control, then it's incompatible. >> And that's the real Hail Mary, right? (laughs) When you give up that control, if you give it up, so, we have examples coming out, where, you know, Ripple is running just a few nodes, Neo's running a few more, and you know, things that are not really decentralized, and they're saying, "Well, we're going to be," (laughs) you know? >> Will they ever? >> Is it going to be in the future-- >> Yeah, that's always the question, will they ever be? They've already made their money, well certainly Ripple's done well, but, I mean, what's the incentive to go-- >> Yeah. >> Decentralized. >> Yeah, so if, if you are creating a new project, the benefit from this architecture, beyond the money, is to think about it in that decentralized way, and figure out token economics that work, in that context, in that paradigm! And that's really where the challenge is, but also really where some of the benefits can rise, because, that is what enables truly new ways of doing things. >> Talk about the dynamic, because I actually, I live in Silicon Valley, I've been here 19 years, going on 20, you know, I moved from the east coast, and basically, if you weren't here, this is where the action is. If you're in the sports of tech, this is where all the athletes are. That's now changed, as you mentioned earlier, when we started, it's everywhere. Now, also there's jurisdictional issues, I mean the US, one guy's told me, the US is turning into Europe, all these regulations, it's not as much free capital as you think, and then, we certainly know that. With FCC, and others are putting the clamp down. But, structuring the token, is a concern, right? Or consideration. >> Yes. >> And a concern, so, you know, US entrepreneur, what should they do in your opinion, and if someone's outside the US, what do they do? What's the play book, or, not play book, what's the best path right now? >> Leave the US (laughs). Move out of the US. >> Tell that, wife and four kids. See you later. Yeah, but that's real legit, that's-- >> Come and check out Panama, one of my friends is building a Blockchain incubator, crypto-incubator, I mean I think if you're-- >> What's it like to move out of the United States, I know you just recently went to Panama for this, but, what's it like? Is it scary down there, I mean, is it entrepreneurially friendly? What's the vibe, what's the scene like, take a minute to explain that. >> So I've actually been out there 12 years now, in Panama. One of the neat things, you want a place that has an international outlook, international perspectives, so, you want to think in terms of a Dubai, a Singapore, a Hong Kong. And so, Panama has some aspects of that, it's not perfect, but it does have that international perspective thanks to the Canal! So it has, you know, a hundred years! (laughs) >> It also has the Panama papers, which is a negative blowback for those guys, so it's a safe place to do commerce, in your opinion? >> Um, it is a nice geographic base to do international commerce. >> Got it. >> So, you don't necessarily want to rely on the local jurisdiction, but, in terms of a geographic base, that is US time zone, US dollar, no hurricanes, it's a very interesting place. >> Puerto Rico's got the hurricanes, we know that. >> Yeah. >> Final thoughts, just overall perspective, you've been around the block, we've been around the block, both of us have, I mean, I kind of have these pinch me almost like, "Damn, this is great time, "I wish I was 22," I mean, do you have those? What's it like, how you explain this environment? If people ask you, "Hey, what was it like in the old days?" You know, when you have to provision all your own stack, and do all the stuff, it's pretty interesting right now. What's your thoughts? >> Yeah, I mean, I think we're going through an interesting moment right now, where, we are getting to a point where the forces of centralization are coming against the forces of decentralization, and that includes from the regulatory, as well as the business side, and so, I think it is important, as we look where to dedicate our efforts to, to really find ways to increase the decentralization as a factor that encourages creativity, and entrepreneurship. >> Yeah, it really is a personal, I think it's a great environment. Decent.bet, bet, make your bets, any updates on how to get tokens, what people can expect, a quick plug-in for Decent. >> Yeah, check out our website, we've got links to exchanges, the token is currently listed on Cryptotopia, HitBTC, and a couple other exchanges, and, yeah! Please check out the test net, please check out the white paper, and just learn about how this protocol works, this platform works. I think it is very inspiring, as a structure. >> Adrian Scott here, inside theCUBE, Soma Capital, also experienced entrepreneur himself, technologist, and has been through the ICO process, head of technology at decent.net, we'll be checkin' it out, it's theCUBE Conversation, I'm John Furrier, here in Palo Alto, California. Thanks for watching. (bright music)

(electronic theme music0 >> Announcer: Live from Nassau in the Bahamas. It's the Cube. Covering Polycom 18. Brought to you by Polycom. >> Welcome to Nassau, everybody. This is the Cube, the leader in live tech coverage. And we're here at Polycom 18 in beautiful Bahamas, Nassau. Brian Brackeen is here, the CEO of Kairos. Brain, thanks for coming on. >> Thanks for having me. >> We just met this morning. >> Yep. >> I heard you up on the panel. So Kairos, first of all, I love the name. >> Thank you, thank you. >> Where's the name come from? >> It's Greek. >> Yeah, I thought so. >> It means, the most opportune moment. >> Love it. Okay, so you seize the opportune moment to do facial recognition. Everybody knows facial recognition from Facebook, but talk about what you guys bring to the table. >> Yeah and like you said. You seen it from Facebook. The new iPhone has facial recognition. It's really all about identifying who someone is and verifying their identity. We use it for companies. Prior to doing this for ICS stuff, we were an existing business, six years old. Mostly fortune 500, fortune 1,000 companies. We have retailers understand who's in the retail store. Their age, gender, ethnicities, their emotions, their feelings. We also help people like a, even like school bus companies that identifies which kids are getting on the right bus. We help movie studios to understand how you feel about a film. So we've been in this industry some time. We think it's perfect for the block change >> So there's a security angle there as well. >> Absolutely. >> As the fun on Facebook. How's, what's the state of facial recognition technology? I'd love to hear from an expert. I've talked to some people who say, oh, it's nowhere near ready. And I'm like how can it not be ready? I go on Facebook, they tag me in an instance. (laughing) I go, no, don't tag me. Where are we in terms of the quality and ethicacy of facial recognition. >> Yeah, we can find one person in a billion in about one third of a second. And we're about 99.8, 99.9% sure they are who we think they are. So definitely, the future is really now. >> Now you guys, unlike many companies who either done an ICO or raisen security tokens or done utility tokens, you guys are an established company. And then decided, so let's, but before we get into that. Give us the history of the company. You seized the moment and, how you got started and how you got here. >> Sure. My personal background, I'm a, Philadelphia, originally. We were just talking abut being an Eagles fan. >> Hey, congratulations. >> Thank you, thank you so much. Long time coming. >> The Eagles, a deserved win. It hurts me from being from Boston, but. (laughing) >> But we still get along. >> Yeah >> So worked in large corporations for most of my career. >> Comcast, IBM in Phily, took a job at Apple, just after the iPhone launch on through the iPad launch. Steve Job was still there. It was a period of exponential growth. It changed my life. And then I got the shuttle bug, and quit my job there. Which my parents thought I was absolutely crazy. And started Kairos. First in San Francisco and then moved the company to Miami. We realized early on that facial recognition was a right direction that helping companies to do it was a big idea. Essentially the market is anywhere or anyone that works with people. So thought it was a good and growing market. And we got into it deeply in the last three to four years or so. >> So a bit of a change up. I want to ask you GDPR, the General Data Protection Regulation is coming, it's here but the fines and penalties go into effect in May of this year. I learned recently that pictures qualify for personally identifiable information. >> Correct. >> Has that been a tailwind for you? Have people come to you and say, hey, we need help because we, we're on the video business or whatever it is and we need help in case somebody needs to identify somebody. Is that a use case. >> Yeah, we think a lot about GDPR, a lot about it. As your viewers may know, that's really a European Union regulation. However, it kind of extends to people who, anybody doing business there. >> Dave: Right. >> Which is everyone in the US. (laughing) So it becomes almost like defacto US law, even though it's not a US law. There's a lot of concern about, because of facial recognition, your picture really becomes your identity. So how do we manage that. We're actually one of the first anonymous facial recognition companies in the world. We sometimes just let you know that it's the same person, but not who that person is. Protecting your animity and your individuality. >> Okay, is that where block change comes in? >> Exactly. >> Okay, let's pivot to that discussion, block change. Talk about the technology that allows me to own my own data, protect my own data, anonymize, how's that work? >> Absolutely. Let's say me and you were in a kind of friendly wager, if it's really a go right, on the super bowl, (laughing) right. And I, you lost the game, so now you owe me 20 ether. So you don't just want to send it to a random address. You want to make sure that, you know, it's really me. Because 20 ether is a decent amount of money these days, right. And so now you're going to use facial recognition transaction today. Only this face can unlock this transaction. Can open this ether and deposit into their wallet. I don't think you don't even know who I am, but just this face. And so I'm standing on the other side. I can say that I will only accept ether from this face. >> Right >> Yeah, it changes everything. >> And then the obvious question people are going to ask you, server address really, but how secured is that? You know, how hackable is that? Can I take a picture of somebody and then, you know, recreate, you know, that image? How do you, you know, forth that? >> Yeah, yeah. A number of ways. Some things like you can take a picture of someone else and say hold it in front of the camera, that kind of thing. We have all kinds of anti fraud detection. So we can detect from the entrance of light, and because we can read emotions, is the person kind of really alive, are they feeling emotions or are they breathing. All kinds of technology we can use to verify someone's identity. >> Great. All right, let's get in the business of tokens. You choice to tokenize your business. Why does it make sense to tokenize your business? >> Yeah, and you know, you see this world, often times will write a white paper and say this is my idea. I appreciate that, but raising 10's and millions of dollars sometimes, and never coming through on that idea, right. In our case, we were an existing business. We've already raised about $80 million in capital, you know, like a Series A, Series B, very traditional way. And we didn't think we could just go off and build a new division in Gibralter or different kind of exotic. I would say that we're in US space and we have US investors in venture capital investors. So we said, let's do this the right way. Let's create a security token. Completely SEC compliant. So let's just do this like another round. To completely tokenize the existing investors and the new investors. So we're all on the same boat. And we've seen great success because of it. >> Okay and so the motivation for them was for investors was equity. Motivation for the existing, preferred investors was liquidity. >> Liquidity. >> Okay, so you basically took those existing, preferred. They protected their ownership and you transferred them over to tokens. >> Transferred them over to tokens, yeah. Essentially, you don't lose any equity, right. But you gain liquidity. You're still in the business. You're long on Kairos, you can stay long on Kairos. If you want to take a little off the table, you can take a little off the table. It really changes overseas finance. >> Dave: And you're doing it to your Chili token as well or no? >> We're doing it to Chili token as well. >> Dave: Okay. >> And with the Chili token, we gave it away for free. Because then we say to the SEC or anyone else, look, we're not trying to profit or get invested from the Chili tokens, that's why it completely free. We're doing a SEC compliant token. >> And talk about the use cases for that utility token. Howe are people utilizing it and what's the value? >> So going back to our friendly bet for the 25 ether, when I click my face for the first time, when I give a scan, that cost one Tyro token. >> Right >> Now after that, to verify it, it's free. But to create your face the first time, it's a Tyro token. >> Let's see, okay, and then you guys charge a monthly subscription for your service, correct? >> For the block change service, no. We just do it, just face san. >> Now right, okay. >> Yeah. >> But through your core business. >> For core business, monthly subscription, reoccurring revenue, absolutely. >> Excellent. I'll give you the last word. Kind of future, where's all this going? We're here at this investors conference. It's the first conference focused on security tokens? >> Yes, right. >> So, and you're a great example of that, of an existing company not a blank sheet of paper. >> Yeah. >> What's your outlook, you know, for the future of this industry, this eco system, this community? >> I'm literally like bubbling with excitement on the future. And it is, as you know, it's way tough for founders who are not base in San Francisco or Silicon Valley, to raise capital. This sort of democratizes that entire process. Now what you'll have is, somebody started in Miami or Portland or Boston, right. And first they would do a round of small investors, local VCs. Get their model together. Get their act right Get some customers. Things start to work for the company. And then there, instead of trying to go Silicon Valley, and beg them to invest, and maybe they won't just because the location. Now, you do ICO at that stage and make the folks in your community richer. They go off and do more things. Make better cities. It's really, really something great. >> Brian Brackeen, thanks very much >> Thank you. >> For coming on the Cube. Really appreciate having you. >> Yup. >> Alright, keep it right there, buddy. We'll be back with our next guest right after this short break. This is Dave Vellante. You're watching the Cube. (electronic theme music)

>> Announcer: Live from Nassau in the Bahamas. It's the Cube, covering Polycon 18. Brought to you by Polymath. >> Hey, welcome back everyone. We're here, live in the Bahamas for Polycon 18. It's the Cube's exclusive coverage for day one, wrapping up the segment here. I'm John Furrier with my coach Dave Vellante, co-founder with me at SiliconANGLE media at the Cube. Our guest wrap-up, old co-host. Anthony Di Iorio, co-founder of Ethereum also CEO of Jaxx and Decentral. We had a great chat yesterday. Welcome to joining our wrap-up for day one. >> Thanks for having me on again. >> Yeah, we do live this time. >> Alright that's a lot better. >> Kay, got it, genies out of the bottle on everything so we had bloopers on the last segment, little water break but on serious note, Dave and I want to wrap up the show. We do this every time. Day one, a lot of excitement from the panels. People in the hallway were buzzing, people doing deals. A lot of intimate conversations, Dave we see this early on at these shows. Anthony you've been out hallways, in sessions, talking to people in meetings, getting things done. What's the day one wrap-up for you like? What's happened here? >> So I'm a little bit different at events, I don't attend many of the sessions, I never have. This is more of a way for me to connect with people that I haven't seen for a while. I try not to do too many conferences anymore. I've been doing this for six years now, in the Blockchain space and I realized a couple years ago, it's really about focusing on what I need to do. So this was a little bit different. I did the keynote here yesterday and I'd asked if I could send my hologram instead but they're like, no, you got to come. We can't do that. So generally at my conferences, I don't really do many of the sessions. I'm, you know, just chilling out and kind of use them as vacation times too but it has been pretty busy. It has been good, I've had a number of meetings and yeah it's quite a good buzz. >> What are some of the things you're talking with your friends and colleagues and partners in the business and the industry? Is it tech? You talking tech, you talking personal? What are some of the things going on here? Because these events have a mishmash of all that. >> Yeah, I try to keep them both ways. There's business and personal stuff. I think, business I'm just going to get drained too much and it's nice to make things a little bit lighter. A lot of my meetings have been with people that are, they're looking to know what's going on. People, you know think about security tokens now and it's a change from the traditional utility tokens and it's a lot of just trying to pick my brain about what's happening, what am I seeing, what am I investigating, what are the different things that I'm looking for. It's that. Meeting people that I haven't been able to connect with for a while which is always good. Aligning other events and things coming up and then also spending quite a bit of day by the pool and catching up on emails. You got to make sure you do that stuff. >> Good, I wish I could have been there. We're doing interviews all day but we're doing whatever it takes get the videos out there. We had some interesting guests on, We'll get your reaction to. We had Hartej Sawhney who's, Oshi.io, co-founder, they do audits on smart contracts. >> Yeah. >> And some other folks. But the general observation, I don't think he said this but he was kind of validating and other things that Ethereum is by far the most developer-oriented chain. It has a lot more traction and smart contracts are getting better and better. We've been trying to get, kind of an answer, just kind of order-of-magnitude relevant to developer communities, what is a ballpark order-of-magnitude percentage in your mind of developers on the platforms? Is it is the Ethereum the largest? >> Yeah I'd say so, it was really interesting. We were really good at setting up the communities and we really were focused on devs. There was a lot of setup in the initial structures that was more business oriented but after the crowd sale, everything was down to developers building up communities because that's what we needed. People to actually develop on the platform. >> John: Yeah, of course. >> And Ethereum just had a way, I think it's mostly because of Italic, because of Gavin. They just was a developer project and I think that's what attracted a lot of the people to start building smart contracts, building things on it. And yeah, it's tough to raise the community with developers and I think a Ethereum has done a super job of that and it really is is that developer focus. I mean their event is DevCon right? Or the event is for developers. That's what they're focused on, on their massive conferences that they do. It's all for the developers. So that's definitely been the focus for them. >> It's still tons of upside right? I mean, you said yesterday, that you really don't look for Blockchain developers, you look for good devs >> Mm-hmm and I said to you afterwards, it's probably 'cause there aren't enough of Blockchain devs. >> That's not it really, for us it's that, I didn't... We've already solved a lot of our problems. We've created a platform that goes across many platforms. It syncs very easily, it integrates many platforms in. We don't work on the protocol level of the platforms. Like we're not actually trying to solve problems and create those, creating a platform from scratch that maybe will be valuable a few years. We're letting all of our partners and platforms do that. We're an app that is a... It's something that's not necessarily requiring Blockchain devs to integrate. We do connect to Blockchains, that's fine but we're looking for more traditional stuff that we're doing that actually going to monetize right now and it's based on stuff and technology that doesn't have to be created yet. So we're not looking for those massive problem solvers to develop protocols that need to solve major problems. So we can have good JavaScript developers that's what we require and we need and we can teach them internally what the skills they need on Blockchain. So actually we don't necessarily need Blockchain or we'd be looking for Blockchain devs. We're looking for good JavaScript developers. >> So guys like in traditional enterprise is that right? >> Yeah that's right. That's why it's easy for us to get those in but if you're looking to solve a problem, you're looking to do this core stuff, working on protocol level stuff then you need someone who's been in the Blockchain space for a number of years that can actually help you with that stuff and they're very hard to find right now. >> Yeah and they're also full-stack developers. It's really a unique skill set. New language, full-stack, they've got jobs. >> Yeah they're working tons of projects. They're demanding tons of money. Guys that have been developing on protocol stuff for five years. There's very, very few. There's so much more and they're so high in demand and also they want a lot more, you know, a lot more freedom in the work they're doing because they're so high in demand and I have one guy that's that's it that's a rock star. He works just a few hours a week and when we do have critical issues or critical problems, he's our like consultant that can help us 'cause he's been in the space for a while. He teaches, he's got an Ethereum developer meetup that he runs in Toronto. So he's our go-to guy but we're also just not about Ethereum. We develop, we work with 75 different projects. It's a wide range of things and we can also tap their communities, when we have problems. We go directly to you know the Dash community, hey, there's something going on here. Can you make sure that we're in the loop with this and we'll go right with them and find the >> You should run your, Dave's got a, we always talked about digital transformation. Dave talks about a unique perspective. Share your digital transformation, the role of the developer because that in the impact and get his reaction because we think that the developer on the district line applications is probably the most important trend that I don't think mainstream is talking about. Because it also doesn't really conflict with any other developer movement. It just adds more headroom but we see it from a transformation standpoint. >> Our scenario is that you know, you talk with Cloud, SAS, big data, mobile, social, Web 2.0. That stuff's yesterday's news right and in Blockchain and the developments going on in conferences like these really underscore that momentum and we see that organizations that are succeeding today and taking advantage of that momentum, they have data as their foundational, it's at their core. And there's so many traditional companies where human expertise is the core and data sort of bolted on and that's a big gap so we see Blockchain and this digital transformation converging and developers building this, new web, whatever you want to call it but this matrix of digital services which they tap to build new companies and so the role of the developer is, it's always been critical but now it's >> They got to build it up. >> Their stakeholders and in ways that we've never seen before globally. >> Yeah and they're also, I look at it as these technologies are still very new. They're going to take a long time to displace and disrupt other sectors and I think some people are thinking that they're doing, you know we're going to go from A to Z right away. I've taken the approach that we're going to use a lot of traditional stuff right now and we're going to build and make sure that we can monetize and make sure it's growing. We're going to slowly be adding things in. Where I think if you take a too long approach, you're not be able to actually last. So a lot of stuff is doing what, you're actually building traditional stuff right now too. That's what we do, like we use AWS quite a bit in the stuff that we do. We're not going to centralized storage for how we're storing it's just not proven yet, it's not scalable yet. It's good take a long time to let stuff is and until then you have to make sure that you're actually staying in business, you make sure you doing well. So it's a using a mixture of both things and not going right to the end game. >> You have to de-risk that yeah and take advantage of cloud economics that are that are there today. >> Yeah I mean, if you think about in the space right now. What sector has been disrupted by Blockchain? What has been made faster, better, cheaper? Right now in Blockchain. I can't think of anything. >> Crypto kitties (laughs) >> Yes that's a really important point. >> There hasn't been much value. >> But that's why I bring it back to digital transformation because you think about what's been transformed by you know, digital. Obviously you know publishing, books, you know, ads and I thought well is it bits versus atoms? >> Well is it digital or is it information transfer? >> Well its information transfer that has disrupted that. Now it's value transfer, that's what is coming right? >> Yes and so, but then you'd assume that Blockchain, banking but banking hasn't been disrupted yet? >> Not yet, it's going to take a lot of time. >> And so insurance, healthcare and these industries. >> Well I would say VCs have been disrupted. >> But that's >> I get it. >> Here's my premise, is that risk is the factor that will determine disruption. Maybe it's a little bit of bits versus atoms but it's the risk factors associated with banking, healthcare, insurance, defense, government stuff. The high risk, highly entrenched businesses, organizations but eventually they will be disruptive. >> There'll be signals. >> Yeah but it' a lot of, when we first started Ethereum, there was, we had shirts, at the back would say, Dropbox in five lines and that's just not true. You know at the time this was the goal but when you realize when you try to do it, this isn't scalable this, isn't going to be a done-it, it's going to be too expensive to actually do it if you're actually paying for Ether' to do it. It doesn't make any sense, so that was actually, even I was thinking that's what we're going to be able to do. We're a ways off for that. A problem need to be solved, scalability, biggest problem. Interoperability between all the different chains and how they're all going to work together that needs to be solved. How you going to stop these forking operations that happen at split communities when it went actually a coin forked or something happens you get these battles. Those are problems need to be solved now. So we solved the problem with smart contracts. Now that's the second generation. Now we're looking for other things like Cardan says they're looking at the third generation stuff. It's solving those problems and we're a ways off. So that's why until then you got to still do things with tradition and don't be afraid to use things that are that are proven and work right now in order to get there, yeah. Aright Anthony, well great to have you on the wrap-up. That's day one,we're seeing a lot of great stuff. We had Halsey Minor on, another industry pro. You seeing pros come into this business, you see you know the old dogs, the new dogs, the young guns. I mean, it's a really an amazing community. I got to say reminds me of a lot of trends kind of coming together and that's awesome work that you guys have done. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you of having me on again. >> We appreciate it. That's the wrap-up a day one, here at the Polycon 18. Token Economics, Cryptocurrency, Blockchain. All the players are here, doing deals, making making it all happen. It's the Cube, it's a wrap up. Thanks for watching. (techno music)

(upbeat orchestral music) >> Hello, welcome to this CUBE Conversation. I'm John Furrier here at our Palo Alto studios. I'm joined with Kelsey Lemaster who's Tax Partner at Goodwin. This is theCUBE signal. Kelsey, thanks for coming in. >> Yeah, thanks for having me. Glad to be here. >> So, tax partner. Obviously, lot of things going on. Apple's bringing back cash with the United States. Big news, $380 billion. Tax reform under President Trump seems to be spurring. NASDAQ hit an all time high. Business is booming. Kind of good, good tail wind for business. But really the hot topic that I want to drill down with you in this segment is have a conversation about the ICOs. >> Yeah. >> Cryptocurrency, it's insane. It's super exciting. If you're under the age of 30 and if you're not actually so excited to get into this unregulated, uncontrolled, well some say controlled market. It's just people are going crazy. A lot of opportunities, a lot of fraud, a lot of action around building businesses around it. So, you're in the middle of it. What's going on? Give us a take on then ICO. How many ICOs you guys doing, all right. What's Goodwin's number up to now? How many ICOs you got? >> Yeah, so the number we talk about within the firm is about 40 active ICOs. That's probably not precise but it's more or less that number. You know, every day we talk with existing clients or new clients that want to go through an ICO process, and we advise them the best that we can. There's securities laws issues which people are aware of. That's not really my expertise but in the tax world -- >> Well, Grant Fonda, he's coming in next. But we've had a conversation with him. >> Right, right. >> The securities issues and this, but there's huge tax consequences. >> Yeah, so there are a lot of tax consequences. They're unusual and things that people don't expect when they're raising money, what they view as raising money through an ICO process. Cause typically when you raise money from a venture capitalist or from investors, people who will buy securities in your company for cash or property, that's usually tax free to the company. And I mean, that's been traditional law for many, many years. Problem is in an ICO, what you're selling usually is a digital asset of some sort, a token which often is a right to obtain some service on a platform that may or may not exist yet. And the tax characterization of raising capital for that kind of asset or property or service probably does not qualify for the exception. It normally qualifies when you sell stock or securities. So, it's basically taxable revenue to companies. >> So, let's drill into this, have that conversation about tax. Cause a lot of people I talk to, entrepreneurs or newbies, either new entrepreneurs or seasoned entrepreneurs, even the seasoned entrepreneurs look at the tax consequences and go, "Wow, this is crazy! I don't understand it." And it seems like the tax providers, you guys are one of them there's a bunch of other firms out there that can help with different price points all across the board. Their learning, their training wheels are on too. So, people are learning, running, tripping, falling. It seems to be that from my perspective. And it's a real, real rapid accelerated pace. It's almost like the dot com bubble but fast forward it feels like with an entire new infrastructure of corporate governance. >> Yeah. >> I mean, this is pretty crazy. So, tax is a big one. And the dollar signs could add up big time if you're a company and you need tax advice cause there's so many scenarios. What is the current state of that market? With tax providers, the tax consequences, is it as thorny and hairy? And how are you guys unpacking it? >> I think you're exactly right that a lot of us are learning together about the technology, about the business terms, the deals. Those are evolving. The tax law is what it is. It has really not caught up to any of this. The IRS issued a notice in 2014 that tells you how cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin and Ether and Dash and some of those others are taxed to individual investors but that's it. That's all we've heard from the IRS. So, a lot of us as practitioners are trying to figure out how to apply traditional tax law principles to this brand new, technological sort of device or way of raising capital. And in some instances, the answers are clear. And in others, they're not. There are a lot of square peg round hole problems that a lot of us are trying to work through. And as you said, we're doing it at a very rapid pace, real time, clients are not really waiting for us to figure out every nuance of tax law and how it's going to apply. They're just doing their ICOs. And so, there are a lot of situations where companies will do an ICO and raise, maybe this hasn't happened lately as much but at least last summer, companies would raise hundreds of millions of dollars in an ICO without really getting any significant tax advice. And the basic rules in this area, as I had mentioned, If you raise capital by issuing tokens, it's probably taxable revenue. So, if you start up as a normal corporation where you're going to build a platform, you're going to spend some money to build it, and all of a sudden you raise $200 million. Well, if you can't spend all of that money in a year, you're going to pay tax. And last year, the corporate tax rate was 35% federally. Now, that's been reduced on under the tax reform. But say you raised $200 million dollars last year and you effectively couldn't spend much more than a couple million dollars. You could have a tax bill at the end of the year of $70, $80 million dollars which nobody was expecting. You know, companies are trying to structure around and avoid -- >> It's hard to spend $200 million in one year. >> Kelsey: Yeah, exactly. >> You really got to go crazy, go on boondoggle. No but this is an important point. So, let's get down to that. So, the cash proceeds coming in, obviously the utility token, that's taxed right out of the gate. >> Yeah, there are some areas of uncertainty there. And there are positions. I mean, there are alternative ways of viewing that. Probably the right way of viewing money coming in, we say money but usually it's Ether or Bitcoin, right? So, we take the fair value of what comes in. And if it's $200 million, in a utility token context, that's probably going to be viewed as revenue for future services. Because, by having the tokens, the individual holders will be allowed to participate in your platform and get your services. So, the services income that's taxable. Now, you may be able to defer some of it for up to one or maybe two years. It depends. You're going to have to recognize all of it for tax purposes within two to three years max. And you know, people have talked about, "Well, can I just wait and see what happens and not pay any tax on this income?" And there are some sort of doctrines that you might look to one's called the open transaction doctrine where you don't really know what's going to happen. In a lot of these cases, the ICO proceeds have to be given back if the platform never gets built. So, people have talked about, "Well, can I use what's called open transaction, and wait and see? And if I build the platform, then I'll take the income in in that year in the future but not now." Personally, I think that's a losing argument. And my view is the IRS, when they start looking into this, they're going to really view this as all just services income. And you might have one or two years to spread it out, but you're going to have to pay tax on it. >> It sounds like there's a mix and a confluence between accounting and finance and tax law. Because you've got timing issues, that's revenue recognition. You mentioned services with tax practional view. What is the line? Where is the absolute, out of bounds in ICO tax policy? If you could lay it out. I know there's a gray area that your people are working through and might have a position and lean towards a certain direction based upon what they're doing. So, I can get that. But where should someone look in saying that might not be in the know in the taxing. Don't do this. What are the things that they shouldn't be doing? Obviously, fraud. We know that's ... >> You don't want to do tax fraud, for sure. I would say, in general, it's going to be risky to take a position that, if you raise a bunch of money in a utility token ICO, if you take the position that that's not revenue and you somehow view it under the open transaction doctrine, for example, I think that's a risky position. >> John: Why? >> Just because I think that it's inconsistent with the law and the open transaction doctrine space. Normally, when you receive money and it's basically yours, you have a claim of right over it, that's taxable income to you. Even if you might have to somehow give it back in the future. So, I think that would be a risky position to take. Another thing that we've heard about a lot of companies doing is, you know, for awhile everybody wanted to set up a foundation in Switzerland. I'll set up a foundation in Switzerland, they'll issue the tokens, it's all tax free because it's a foundation. I think there's ... I'm trying to remember. There's an ICO company that recently got in trouble for this because they were trying to take the funds out of Switzerland and use them for personal use. But any time I hear someone talk about setting up a foreign foundation, my antenna go up. I think that -- >> You think that's a red flag. >> I think that's a major red flag. Most of these companies that are doing ICOs, probably don't really have the kind of purpose or business that really fits with a foundation. I mean, foundations are tax exempt, charitable type entities. Like The Ethereum Foundation. That to me sounds like a foundation, right? It's not there to profit in any particular business. >> John: It's not a business hiding as a foundation. >> Kelsey: Exactly. That's a great way to put it. I think there for awhile, people thought that I could hide my business in a Swiss foundation and never pay tax. And I think that's a major red flag. >> Okay, let's talk about the Cayman Islands, Switzerland, there's places to domicile or locate your business for tax reasons. And some people, there's play books out there on what to do. And it evolves. It's a moving train for sure. But what problem are we solving with the tax? Can you just elaborate on what is the core problem to be worked on with respect to taxing, the tax consequences in the ICO crypto market? >> Kelsey: Right. So, from the company's perspective, the core problem is what I was mentioning where, when you raise all this money through an ICO, the most likely treatment of that if your raise it into a U.S. corporation is that it's just taxable income. And maybe some of it's taxable this year and the rest is taxable next year, but it's going to be taxable to that corporation pretty quickly. And corporations don't want to pay tax. I mean, that's an age old problem. So, what people are doing and are still doing is there are structures where you can set up a subsidiary in a foreign jurisdiction like Switzerland, Cayman Islands. This is not a foundation, this is a normal subsidiary. And if you get the intellectual property moved into that subsidiary in an appropriate way, and there are rule around that, and then you have substance in that subsidiary where you have employees in that jurisdiction who are helping to develop the IP. Then if you do everything right, and then you sell the future services out of that subsidiary and you sell the ICO tokens out of that subsidiary, you may get some ability to defer U.S. tax until you actually take money out of the subsidiary and repatriate it to the U.S. So, that's what -- >> It's a lot of work to set up a subsidiary. >> It's a lot of work to set up a subsidiary. >> And it's costly. >> Kelsey: Yep. >> Is it worth it? >> Yeah, so prior to the tax reform bill at the end of last year, if you could do it all right, and there are a lot of issues with getting it right and complications and complexity, But if you could do all of that, and there are a lot of companies that did, then yeah, I think there are good positions for deferring tax. Which, you know, on a $200 million ICO, that's deferring $80 million dollars in tax until some indefinite period in the future. >> There's not many $200 million ICOs. >> Not many ... Right. >> Most of them are in the five to 20, 20 to 60 range. Million. >> Yep. So, I think now that we're in -- >> Still a good chunk of change. >> Kelsey: Yeah, a good chunk of change. And so, post tax reform, the tax rates last year were 35% corporate federal income tax rate. Now, they're 21%. So, there's been a huge reduction in corporate income tax rate in the U.S. So, that I think coupled with the smaller size of the ICOs is going to drive fewer companies to want to set up these offshore structures because, one, it's a smaller amount of tax liability that they're dealing with. And two, because you're raising less money it's not too difficult to spend $5 million -- >> So, pretend I'm doing an ICO. So, I say, "Oh, I'm going to do an ICO." Well, I know that I could maybe fetch $20 million might be the range. Or say I get lucky, say I do 30. I say to myself, "Okay, can I spend $30 million in two years?" Probably, yeah. But it's not so much spending money. I want to get your reaction to this. It's not just spending the money to get the tax law set. It's can I get to revenue. So, can I hit the fly wheel for critical mass in a revenue model. Which, now, a new dynamic is 2018 seems to be the year of we were looking for real deals not vapor deals. White paper and raise money. How does that work? So, if I say, "Hey, I know with $20 million in two years I can get to cash flow positive break even." What's the tax consequence on that? Is that a good deal to do? >> Yeah. So, once you turn net profitable for tax purposes you'll start paying taxes in the U.S. And so, if the idea is I'm going to raise $20 million on an ICO in January 2018, and I'm going to spend $20 million between now and the end of 2019, you can probably, you have to model this out with your accountants, but you can probably match up the $20 million you received this year with the $20 million of expense you spend between now and the end of 2019. And once that zeroes out then you probably won't pay too much tax on the $20 million you receive now. Then once you flip to net positive, right? So, you've spent the 20, took the 20, now you're at zero and you start earning income -- >> But that's a real business. >> That's a real business. And that's going to be taxed like any other business. And now you're in a much lower U.S. tax rate environment of 21%. That's probably a fair deal. >> This is the business model question that everyone's asking. Can I get, use the cash to build a business this is now the conversation in the venture community. It's the conversation in the entrepreneurial circles. >> Kelsey: Yep. >> How to do it. Not just go to the trough and take as much down as you can. Which pretty much everyone's trying to do. That's up though. Not many people doing that. >> Kelsey: Yep. >> I mean, Signal's got a big ICO coming. They were in the billions. But are you advising clients to stay in the U.S. If they don't have to go to Cayman's? What's the current state of your research note or tax note to clients? >> Kelsey: Yeah. I think this you might have different views from different practitioners. My personal view is that if it's a relatively small amount that you're raising and you expect to be able to spend it down within that one to two year period, I tend to advice clients to keep it simple, stay in the U.S. Because there are a lot of ways that you can screw up a Cayman structure or Swiss structure. And usually these companies are working incredibly hard to build their platform. >> It's also distracting. >> That's my point. Exactly. The benefit is uncertain. And it may not be much of a benefit at all. And it's probably much more important that you succeed with your business than for you to save what may or may not be a small or large amount of tax. >> So, you guys are learning on the fly, which is great. And this is a market ... It's a huge wave. Everyone's getting their surf boards and getting out there on this big wave. And it's super exciting. What are the practitioners circles, your peers, as you guys huddle on this in the industry, what is the general rule of thumb that you guys are applying? I know Goodwin's a great firm. You guys have done some great work. You're conservative but yet aggressive which is a good balance here. I think some firms won't even touch an ICO. Maybe too risky for them. But you guys take a good line there. You're pushing the envelope. What's the rule of thumb in the practitioners circles? Where's the standards evolving? What's your reaction that? >> This is probably not a super helpful answer. I don't think there are standards. I mean, this is a space that barely existed eight months ago, and now we're doing 40 ICOs at a time. So, it's a very fast-paced evolving space. We just had tax reform literally two weeks ago. I'm on an advisory group with the Ethereum Network Foundation, and it's a bunch of tax lawyers in New York and out here, and we talk every couple of weeks. Just to kind of figure out what we're doing. And there are a lot of things we talk about but I wouldn't say there are really any standards that have come up. There are other ways that people are implementing ICOs that didn't really exist six or eight months ago. >> John: Like what? >> Which you'll probably talk about with Grant to some extent. But you could just go out and have your tokens ready and sell them as a token sale ICO. We have a lot of clients that want to raise the money before they have their tokens built. They just have the white papers so they will sell SAFTs, which are a Simple Agreement for Future Tokens. But you basically agree you'll give me your Ether now and I promise I will give you tokens in the future. And that's a SAFT. Now, there are versions on that where we see investors kind of hedging their bets like, "Well, I don't really know if you're going to be successful with the platform, so what I really want to do is I'll give you money now and I want an instrument that kind of gives me flexibility to either take tokens or equity. So, you see these instruments, like one's called a SAFE, a Simple Agreement for Future Equity. Which you see in normal financings But with a dash "t" on the end of it. >> John: We're going to have pipes. We're going to have SAFE. We're going to have all this stuff going on. >> So, there are all these acronyms coming up. And there are different versions but some of those versions might give you better positions on bringing in the money now and waiting to figure out if it's going to be taxable. >> John: What have you learned? You've got ICOs under your belt. You guys are doing good work over there. Relatively new. What's the big learnings that you've walked away with, so far? And what's still in front of you? >> Yeah, I think what I've learned is just, for me personally, it's very interesting to see how these traditional tax concepts which are simple in the abstract really apply in very unexpected ways to an ICO. And the things we've been talking about on the company side is a big area there. I've also focused a lot on if you're an investor and you're participating in an ICO, odds are you're not paying cash. You're probably paying in Ether or Bitcoin. And if you've held those other cryptos for a long time, and let's say you bought Ether at $10 and you're trading it in now at $1,000 in an ICO. Well, you probably also have gain cause you've just exchanged your Ether. So, now you have $990 in gain for every Ether that you send in. And you know, there are ways to try to manage that for the investors. But that's one area that's been a surprise for investors something we've been aware of but it's something I've kind of thought about and learned that in a lot of these situations there are tax consequences not only for the company but on the investor side. So, on both sides of the table there are tax consequences. And people are often surprised by that and everybody's catching up. >> Kelsey, great to have you on. Take a minute to end the segment. Just share a little bit of the work that Goodwin's doing. You guys have a tax practice. You're head of it over there. What's some of the work you've done? Do the plug in. >> Kelsey: Yeah. So, in this space we do our work with a lot of clients on ICOs. We're working with a lot of traditional venture funds that are dipping their toe in and are reviewing ICOs that they may invest in. So, we look at it with our investor hat and with our company hat. We've also helped clients that are thinking about doing tokenized funds where they will raise capital into a venture fund but they'll do it by issuing their own tokens. So, those are very interesting structures in and of themselves. We've really kind of embraced this space and worked really in just about every way that you see these companies taking shape. We've helped them and helped the investors. >> And of course, you got funds of funds going on now. I saw a couple of decks been circulating around. Funds of funds, you've got token funds, funds of funds. This is like a new asset class. >> It's a whole new world. >> I mean, unregulated, uncontrolled, controlled probably by a few people. I mean, pretty wild. >> Yeah, yeah. >> John: Having fun? >> It is, it's been a blast. >> Kelsey, thanks for coming on theCUBE. Kelsey Lemaster, partner at Goodwin on the tax side. A lot of work. I'm sure he's busy. It's complicated. And they're learning and people are being successful in ICOs. And again, one of the big things is the tax consequences. Check out Goodwin. They've got a great firm over there. Kelsey, thanks for spending the time coming on theCUBE. I'm John Furrier. This is CUBE Conversations in Palo Alto. Thanks for watching. (upbeat orchestral music)