>>Hey everyone, it's Vegas. Welcome back. We know you've been watching all day. We appreciate that. We always love being able to bring you some great content on the Cube Live from AWS Reinvented 22. Lisa Martin here with Paul Gill. And Paul, we've had such a great event. We've, I think we've done nearly 70 interviews since we started on the Cube on >>Monday night. I believe we just hit 70. Yeah, we just hit 70. You must feel like you've done half of >>Them. I really do. But we've been having great conversations. There's so much innovation going on at aws. Nothing slowed them down during the pandemic. We love also talking about the innovation, the flywheel that is their partner ecosystem. We're gonna have a great conversation about that >>Next. And as we've said, going back to day one, the energy of the show is remarkable. And here we are, we're getting late in the afternoon on day two, and there's just as much activity, just as much energy out there as, as the beginning of the first day. I have no doubt day three will be the >>Same. I agree. There's been no slowdown. We've got two guests here. We're gonna have a great conversation. Chuck Kubota joins us, senior Director of Cloud Services, GTM at Red Hat. Great to have you on the program. And Ted Stanton, global head of Sales, red Hat at IBM at aws. Welcome. >>Thanks for having us. >>How's the show going so far for you guys? >>It's a blur. Is it? Oh my gosh. >>Don't they all >>Blur? Well, yes, yes. I actually like last year a bit better. It was half the size. Yeah. And a lot easier to get around, but this is back to normal, so >>It is back to normal. Yeah. And and Ted, we're hearing north of 50,000 in-person attendees. I heard a, something I think was published. I heard the second hand over like 300,000 online attendees. This is maybe the biggest one we ever had. >>Yeah, yeah, I would agree. And frankly, it's my first time here, so I am massively impressed with the overall show, the meeting with partners, the meeting with customers, the announcements that were made, just fantastic. And >>If you remember back to two years ago, there were a lot of questions about whether in-person conferences would ever return and the volume that we used to see them. And that appears to be >>The case. I think we, I think we've answered, I think AWS has answered that for us, which I'm very pleased to see. Talk about some of those announcements. Ted. There's been so much that that's always one of the things we know and love about re men is there's slew of announcements. You were saying this morning, Paul, and then keynote, you lost, you stopped counting after I >>Lost 15, I lost count for 15. I think it was over 30 announcements this morning alone >>Where IBM and Red Hat are concern. What are some of the things that you are excited about in terms of some of the news, the innovation, and where the partnership is going? >>Well, definitely where the partnership is going, and I think even as we're speaking right now, is a keynote going on with Aruba, talking about some of the partners and the way in which we support partners and the new technologies and the new abilities for partners to take advantage of these technologies to frankly delight our customers is really what most excites me. >>Chuck, what about you? What's going on with Red Hat? You've been there a long time. Sales, everything, picking up customers, massively transforming. What are some of the things that you're seeing and that you're excited >>About? Yeah, I mean, first of all, you know, as customers have, you know, years ago discovered it's not competitively advantageous to manage their own data centers in most cases. So they would like to, you know, give that responsibility to Amazon. We're seeing them move further up the stack, right? So that would be more beyond the operating system, the application platforms like OpenShift. And now we have a managed application platform built on OpenShift called Red Out OpenShift service on AWS or Rosa. And then we're even further going up the stack with that with, we just announced this week that red out OpenShift data science is available in the AWS marketplace, runs on Rosa, helps break the land speed record to getting those data models out there that are so important to make, you know, help organizations become more, much more data driven to remain competitive themselves. >>So talk about Rosa and how it differs from previous iterations of, of OpenShift. I mean, you had, you had an online version of OpenShift several years ago. What's different about Rosa? >>Yeah, so the old OpenShift online that was several years old, right? For one thing, wasn't a joint partnership between Amazon and Red Hat. So we work together, right? Very closely on this, which is great. Also, the awesome thing about Rosa, you know, if you think about like OpenShift for, for, as a matter of fact, Amazon is the number one cloud that OpenShift runs on, right? So a lot of those customers want to take advantage of their committed spins, their EDPs, they want one bill. And so Rosa comes through the one bill comes through the marketplace, right? Which is, which is totally awesome. Not only that or financially backing OpenShift with a 99.95% financially backed sla, right? We didn't have that before either, right? >>When you say financially backed sla, >>What do you mean? That means that if we drop below 99.95% of availability, we're gonna give you some money back, right? So we're really, you know, for lack of better words, putting our money where our mouth is. Absolutely right. >>And, and some of the key reasons that we even work together to build Rosa was frankly we've had a mirror of customers and virtually every single region, every single industry been using OpenShift on AWS for years, right? And we listened to them, they wanted a more managed version of it and we worked very closely together. And what's really great about Rosa too is we built some really fantastic integrations with some of the AWS native services like API gateway, Amazon rds, private link, right? To make it very simple and easy for customers to get started. We talked a little bit about the marketplace, but it's also available just on the AWS console, right? So customers can get started in a pay as you go fashion start to use it. And if they wanna move into a more commitment, more of a set schedule of payments, they can move into a marketplace private offer. >>Chuck, talk about, how about Rosen? How is unlocking the power of technology like containers Kubernetes for customers while dialing down some of the complexity that's >>There? Yeah, I mean if you think about, you know, kind of what we did, you know, earlier on, right? If you think about like virtualization, how it dialed down the complexity of having to get something rack, get a blade rack, stack cable and cooled every time you wanted to deploy new application, right? So what we do is we, our message is this, we want developers to focus on what matters most. And that's build, deploy, and running applications. Most of our customers are not in the business of building app platforms. They're not in the business of building platforms like banks, I, you know, financials, right? Government, et cetera. Right? So what we do is we allow those developers that are, enable those developers that know Java and Node and springing and what have you, just to keep writing what they know. And then, you know, I don't wanna get too technical here, but get pushed through way and, and OpenShift takes care of the rest, builds it for them, runs it through a pipeline, a CICD pipeline, goes through all the testing and quality gates and things like that, deploys it, auto wires it up, you know, to monitoring which is what you need. >>And we have all kinds of other, you know, higher order services and an ecosystem around that. And oh, by the way, also plugging into and taking advantage of the services like rds, right? If you're gonna write an application, a tradition, a cloud native application on Amazon, you're probably going to wanna run it in Rosa and consuming one of those databases, right? Like RDS or Aurora, what have you. >>And I, and I would say it's not even just the customers. We have a variety of ecosystem partners, both of our partners leveraging it as well. We have solos built their executive management system that they go ahead and turn and sell to their customers, streamlines data and collects data from a variety of different sources. They decided, you know, it's better to run that on top of Rosa than manage OpenShift themselves. We've seen IBM restack a lot of their software, you know, to run on top of Rose, take advantage of that capabilities. So lots of partners as well as customers are taking advantage of fully managed stack of that OpenShift that that turnkey capabilities that it provides >>For, for OpenShift customers who wanna move to Rose, is that gonna be a one button migration? Is that gonna be, can they run both environments simultaneously and migrate over time? What kind of tools are you giving them? >>We have quite, we have quite a few migration tools such as conveyor, right? That's one of our projects, part of our migration application toolkit, right? And you know, with those, there's also partners like Trilio, right? Who can help move, you know, applications back 'em up. In fact, we're working on a pretty cool joint go to market with that right now. But generally speaking, the OpenShift experience that the customers that we have know and love and those who have never used OpenShift either are coming to it as well via Rosa, right? The experience is primarily the same. You don't have to really retrain your people, right? If anything, there's a reduction in operational cost. We increase developer productivity cuz we manage so much of the stack for you. We have SRE site reliability engineers that are backing the platform that proactively get ahead of anything that may go wrong. So maybe you don't even notice if something went wrong, wrong. And then also reactively fixing it if it comes to that, right? So, you know, all those kind of things that your customers are having to do on their own or hire a contractor, a consultant, what have to do Now we benefit from a managed offering in the cloud, right? In Amazon, right? And your developers still have that great experience too, like to say, you know, again, break the land speed record to prod. >>I >>Like that. And, and I would actually say migrations from OpenShift are on premise. OpenShift to Rosa maybe only represents about a third of the customers we have. About another third of the customers is frankly existing AWS customers. Maybe they're doing Kubernetes, do it, the, you know, do it themselves. We're struggling with some of the management of that. And so actually started to lean on top of using Rosa as a better platform to actually build upon their applications. And another third, we have quite a few customers that were frankly new OpenShift customers, new Red Hat customers and new AWS customers that were looking to build that next cloud native application. Lots of in the startup space that I've actually chosen to go with Rosa. >>It's funny you mention that because the largest Rosa consumer is new to OpenShift. Oh wow. Right. That's pretty, that's pretty powerful, right? It's not just for existing OpenShift customers, existing OpenShift. If you're running OpenShift, you know, on EC two, right. Self-managed, there's really no better way to run it than Rosa. You know, I think about whether this is the 10th year, 10 year anniversary of re right? Right. Yep. This is also the 10 year anniversary of OpenShift. Yeah, right. I think it one oh came out about sometime around a week, 10 years ago, right? When I came over to Red Hat in 2015. You know, if you, if you know your Kubernetes history was at July 25th, I think was when Kubernetes ga, July 25th, 2015 is when it g you have >>A good >>Memory. Well I remember those days back then, right? Those were fun, right? The, we had a, a large customer roll out on OpenShift three, which is our OpenShift RE based on Kubernetes. And where do you think they ran Amazon, right? Naturally. So, you know, as you move forward and, and, and OpenShift V four came out, the, reduces the operational complexity and becomes even more powerful through our operator framework and things like that. Now they revolved up to Rosa, right? And again, to help those customers focus on what matters most. And that's the applications, not the containers, not those underlying implementation and technical details while critically important, are not necessarily core to the business to most of our customers. >>Tremendous amount of innovation in OpenShift in a decade, >>Pardon me? >>Tremendous amount of innovation in OpenShift in the >>Last decade. Oh absolutely. And, and and tons more to come like every day. Right. I think what you're gonna see more of is, you know, as Kubernetes becomes more, more and more of the plumbing, you know, I call 'em productive abstractions on top of it, as you mentioned earlier, unlocking the power of these technologies while minimizing, even hiding the complexity of them so that you can just move fast Yeah. And safely move fast. >>I wanna be sure we get to, to marketplaces because you have been, red Hat has made, has really stepped up as commitment to the AWS marketplace. Why are you doing that now and how are, how are the marketplaces evolving as a channel for you? >>Well, cuz our customers want us to be there, right? I mean we, we, we are customer centric, customer first approach. Our customers want to buy through the marketplace. If you're an Amazon, if you're an Amazon customer, it's really easy for you to go procure software through the marketplace and have, instead of having to call up Red Hat and get on paper and write a second check, right? One stop shop one bill. Right? That is very, very attractive to our customers. Not only that, it opens up other ways to buy, you know, Ted mentioned earlier, you know, pay as you go buy the drink pricing using exactly what you need right now. Right? You know, AWS pioneered that, right? That provides that elasticity, you know, one of the core tenants at aws, AWS cloud, right? And we weren't able to get that with the traditional self-managed on Red Hat paper subscriptions. >>Talk a little bit about the go to market, what's, you talked about Ted, the kind of the three tenants of, of customer types. But talk a little bit about the gtm, the joint go to market, the joint engineering, so we get an understanding of how customers engage multiple options. >>Yeah, I mean, so if you think about go to market, you know, and the way I think of it is it's the intersection of a few areas, right? So the product and the product experience that we work together has to be so good that a customer or user, actually many start talk, talking about users now cuz it's self-service has a more than likely chance of getting their application to prod without ever talking to a person. Which is historically not what a lot of enterprise software companies are able to do, right? So that's one of those biggest things we do. We want customers to just be successful, turn it on, get going, be productive, right? At the same time we wanna to position the product in such a way that's differentiating that you can't get that experience anywhere else. And then part of that is ensuring that the education and enablement of our customers and our partners as such that they use the platform the right way to get as much value out of as possible. >>All backed by, you know, a very smart field that ensures that the customer get is making the right decision. A customer success org, this is attached to my org now that we can go on site and team with our customers to make sure that they get their first workloads up as quickly as possible, by the way, on our date, our, our dime. And then SRE and CEA backing that up with support and operational integrity to ensure that the service is always up and available so you can sleep, sleep, sleep well at night. Right? Right. One of our PMs of, of of Rosa, he says, what does he say? He says, Rosa allows organizations, enables organizations to go from 24 7 operations to nine to five innovation. Right? And that's powerful. That's how our customers remain more competitive running on Rosa with aws, >>When you're in customer conversations and you have 30 seconds, what are the key differentiators of the solution that you go boom, boom, boom, and they just go, I get it. >>Well, I mean, my 32nd elevator pitch, I think I've already said, I'll say it again. And that is OpenShift allows you to focus on your applications, build, deploy, and run applications while unlocking the power of the technologies like containers and Kubernetes and hiding or minimizing those complexities. So you can do as fast as possible. >>Mic drop Ted, question for you? Sure. Here we are at the, this is the, I leave the 11th reinvent, 10th anniversary, 11th event. You've been in the industry a long time. What is your biggest takeaway from what's been announced and discussed so far at Reinvent 22, where the AWS and and its partner ecosystem is concerned? If you had 30 seconds or if you had a bumper sticker to put on your DeLorean, what would you say? >>I would say we're continuing to innovate on behalf of our customers, but making sure we bring all of our partners and ecosystems along in that innovation. >>Yeah. I love the customer obsession on both sides there. Great work guides. Congrats on the 10th anniversary of OpenShift and so much evolution, the customer obsession is really clear for both of you guys. We appreciate your time. You're gonna have to come back now. Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you. All right. Thank you so much for joining us. For our guests and for Paul Gillin. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching The Cube, the leader in live enterprise and emerging tech coverage.

(bright upbeat music) >> Hey, friends. Welcome back to theCUBE's Live coverage of AWS re:Invent 2022 in Sin City. We are so excited to be here with tens of thousands of people. This is our third day of coverage, really the second full day of the show, but we started Monday night. You're going to get wall-to-wall coverage on theCUBE. You probably know that because you've been watching. I'm Lisa Martin and I'm here with Paul Gill. Paul, this is great. We have had such great conversations. We've been talking a lot about data. Every company is a data company, has to be a data company. We've been talking about developers, the developer experience, and how that's so influential in business decisions for businesses in every industry. >> And it's a key element of what's going on here on the floor at re:Invent is developers, the theme of developers just permeates the show. Lots and lots of boots here devoted to DevOps and Agile approaches. And certainly that is one of the things that the Cloud enables is your team to rethink the way they develop software, and that's what we're going to talk about next. >> That is what we're going to talk about next. We have two guests from Split. split.io is the URL if you want to check it out. Chris Demars joins us Developer advocate. Chris, great to have you and PaaS, VP of Engineering guys thank you so much for joining us on the program. >> Thank you for having us. >> Thank you for having us. >> Talk to us Pierre, we'll start with you. For the audience that might not know Split what does the company do? What's the value in it for customers? What are you all about? >> Sure. So in very simple terms, for those who are familiar, we do feature flags, feature management and experimentation. And essentially that two essential feature of the Agile transformation as you were mentioning and elements that really helps getting as much art we can from the team in term of productivity and in term of impact. And we basically help with those elements. And so that's a very short... >> 'Excellent, very nice. Chris, you were saying before we went live you do a lot of speaking at conferences, you're often in front of large audiences. As the developer advocate, what are some of the key requirements you're hearing from the developer community that organizations need to be encompassing? >> I think community is key. Like community is at the forefront of developer advocacy and developer relations. Like you want to go where the developers are and developers want to hear those stories in those personalized pieces of the puzzle. And when you're able to talk about modern Web and software technology and loop in product with that and still keep talking about those things and bring that to them, like that is on top of the list when it comes to developer advocacy and being embedded within the developer community. >> Lisa: Yeah. >> Tell us about feature flags, because I would assume that for our viewers who are not developers, who are not familiar with Agile technologies, the Agile approaches that might be, may be a new term, what are feature flags? How do you use them? >> Sure, I can start with that. So feature flag is a tool that you embed in your code that allows you to control the activation of your code essentially. And that's allows you to really validate things in a much better and solve way and also attach measurement to it. So, when you're writing your new feature, you just put essentially an if statement around it, if my feature flag is on, then I actually do all those things with soft, then I don't do any of those things and then within our platform, then you can control the activation. Do you want to turn it on for yourself just to try it out? Do you want your QA team to start validating it? Do you want 5% of your users 10%? And start seeing how they interacting with the product. That's what feature flag is. >> It's an amazing piece of any part of the stack, right? 'Cause I'm a Web accessibility and an UI specialist and being able to control the UI with a feature flag and being able to turn on and off those features based on percentage, locale, all of those things. It's very, very powerful. >> What are some of the scenarios which you would use feature flags? You have been testing? >> Yeah, yeah. We actually, you can imagine we use it for pretty much everything. So, as Chris was saying, in the front-end, everything you want to change, you basically can validate and attach measurements. So you can do AB testing, so you can see the impact, you can see if there is a change in performance. We use it also for a lot of backend services and changes and a lot of even infrastructure changes where we can control the traffic and where it goes. So we can validate that things are operating the way that they should before we fully done the market I think. >> 'It can be as small as, you know having a checkout button here and then writing an AB test and running an experiment and moving that checkout button somewhere else because then you can get conversion rates and see which one performed better to a certain amount of people and whatever performed better, that's the feature you would go with. >> Chris, talk about the value of the impact in feature flags for the developer from a developer experience perspective, a productivity perspective. >> So I think that having that feature and being able to write that UI, let's say that you have a checkout button, right? And there's specific content there's verbiage on that checkout button. And then let's say that another team within the organization wants to change that because the conversion is different. You can make those changes, still have it in production and then have it tested. So you don't have to cut specific branches or like test URLs to give to QA, you can do all of that behind that flag. And then once everything is good to go, push it out there and then based on those metrics and that data, see which one performs better and then that's the one that you would go with. >> One of the things with feature flag and it goes to like our main theme of 'What a Release, What a Relief' is that it gives autonomy to the teams and to the developers, enable them to move independently from others. So the deployment can go but their code is not activated until they decide to. And so, they are not impeding anybody else. It makes releases a lot safer, a lot simpler and it gives a lot more speed to everybody because when you do releases with five teams, 10 teams, pushing the code at the same time, you have such a high-risk of breaking something that it's you know... So it's a huge effort and it requires a lot of attention from a lot of people. If anything happens, all those teams needs to investigate. When you decouple all those things, the deployments are essentially not doing anything per se until every individual team activate those things independently. So if anything goes wrong, only them are affected and they don't have to depend on anybody else to get their thing out. So it really helps them making their life a lot safer and gives them a lot more speed because they have autonomy. >> So, why come to re:Invent? What do you get with this audience that you don't get elsewhere? >> Why to re:Invent? I think like re:Invent in the Cloud and AWS is a lot about getting speed to companies to build better product and faster. And essentially like the tool we provide and the technology and the platform we provide is really at the heart of that in itself. And so that's why we feel we have really great conversation with all the people on the floor. >> 'the people who have the right mindset for adopting... >> For me, it's very much community and networking, I love developer community and just community in general is my lifeblood. That's why I travel so much and I talk about these things and I'm with people and if it's not about the products, the story and the story is what gets people. That's why I love being here and being with my team and it's amazing. >> And what is that story? If you had an elevator pitch to give, what would you tell me? >> Hoo, if you were in a late release or deploy at night. I've been there, I'm sure you've been there, it doesn't matter what you're doing. We don't want be up until two, three in the morning doing those things, right? Our product helps alleviate those stresses. And you talking about accessibility, what I do, you know, a big piece of that are hidden impairments like anxiety will stress and anxiety go hand in hand and you want to alleviate that all across the board for everybody involved. >> As you see organizations shift Agile technologies and to parallel development and continuous release cycles, what are some of the biggest barriers they encounter in changing that mindset? >> Ooh, what do you think? >> It depends on where they are in the organization. The Agile transformation is a journey and it's also a change of mindset, it's a change of process. So depending on where they are then they might have some areas where they need a little bit more effort in those directions. What we see is that feature flag just the control of the layout. It's usually something that's fairly easily adopted. Thinking about measurement and attaching measurement to it is often something that requires a little bit more thinking. Like engineers are not really used to thinking about AB testing. It feels like more of a product management thing but AB testing is important also for performance informations like errors and all those things. There is a lot of risk management to be done. We do that through monitoring with APMs, but with feature flag and with Split, you can do that at a feature level and it really gives a great insight. And that's usually something that takes a little bit more digestion from the developers to really get their mind around it and get to it. But there's a lot of value to it. >> I'm looking at the split I/O website and I like the tagline shorten time from code to customer. As customers in any industry, as consumers, we have this expectation that we can get whatever we want anytime 24 by 7 and it's going to be a relevant experience. So it sounds to me like from a speed perspective, there's a lot of business impact that Split can help organizations make from getting releases faster, getting cut faster time-to-market, delivering what customers expect because we all expect real-time these days. Nobody wants to wait. >> Yeah, that's right. Yeah, I think that has to do with the going back to the decoupling of things that, you know... Not having to go through so many teams to have it tested and getting away from all the meetings about meetings to review the metrics, right? We all love meetings about meetings. >> No. (laughs loudly) >> Right, exactly, exactly. So being able to take that away and being able to push all of that stuff into production, getting it tested while it's in production and then being able to turn those features on, it's already there without having to do another deployment. And I think, like that's really powerful to me at least. >> Does your solution have value at the security level as well? >> Yes. So that's one of the particularity on the way we do things is like the way you control the feature flag, you have kind of two ways of doing it. Either the piece of code, the SDKs that we provide, the library we provide, you that you put in your code could come back to our platform and check. The way we do it is we send the rules back to the SDK so the whole evaluation is local. The evaluation is extremely fast and it's very secure because it's all happening within your environment. You never have to share any information, no PI whatsoever, contrary it to some of the other tools that you might find on the market. >> So the theme of the booth is 'What a Release, What a Relief'. What are some of the things that you're hearing as you're engaging folks on the show floor this week? >> Oh, what is Aura Photography and can I take a picture of. (everyone laughs loudly) I think just a lot of the stresses of... They're like the release cycle and you know, having to go through so many teams. I feel like that's a common theme that I've heard of. >> Yeah, we see a number of teams organization that still have like really big deployments with like a lot of teams basically coming together, pushing the code together, and there's a lot of pain in it. It's like, it's a huge effort by huge teams. You get 10, 20 people that have to have watch over it at always weird hours, and I think there is a lot of pain to that and that resonate a lot with people. And when we talk about monitoring at the future level, that also helps a lot. Like I was part of organizations before where we had a dedicated staff engineer to just monitor and fix performance on a daily basis because it's such a huge problem and it affects so much the performance of the company. And so essentially, you have this person that tries to look at is a performance being degraded today with the deployment of yesterday and what went out yesterday and you have so many things that went out. It's so hard to control. With what we provide, we tell you exactly which feature flag is responsible for the degradation. And so, you don't need that person to focus on that anymore. And you can focus on delivering value a lot better. >> I think it also might take away the need for extensive release notebooks and playbooks, right? 'Cause when you do bring all those teams together, it's certain people that are in that meeting and there's a PDF saying, all right, we check this off the list, we check this off the list. I think that might alleviate some of that overhead as well. >> Streamlining processes, process efficiencies, workforce productivity improvements, big impact. >> And that gets code quicker to the user. >> You talk about decoupling deploy from release. What do you mean by that? What's the value? >> So the deployment in my definition is essentially getting the code out to production. The release is activating the code in production. And often people do both of those things at the same time, right? But there's a huge risk when you do that because if anything goes wrong, now you need to revert everything which is not a short operation often and takes a lot of effort. And so now, if you can basically push your code to production but separate the activation of it, the release of it, then it goes a lot faster. It's a lot. You have a lot of autonomy and decoupling and if anything goes wrong, it's the click of a button and it's off. So like there's a lot of safety that comes with it and we know that any outages as a high cost for all the companies. So it's like, if you can reduce the outage to like five seconds... >> Right. >> It's a lot better than basically several hours. >> Can you talk about the value out of Split versus DIY and where are most of your customers in this process? Do they have a bunch of tools, a bunch of processes, a bunch of teams, and you're really helping them consolidate streamline? >> The one thing I hear a lot is we rolled our own AB testing and feature flagging system, but some of the issues I've seen and I've heard are that they don't have all those metrics or they have to work with a specific data team to get those metrics. And then you go back to having those meetings about meetings... >> Lisa: Dependencies. >> Right, you have a data team that's putting together a report that is then presented to you and then that's got to be presented to a stakeholder and then that stakeholder makes a decision whether to turn on feature A or feature B, right? Our product from my understanding is we have those metrics already built in and you can have that at your disposal. >> Yeah, the other thing I would add to that is like we see a number of people, they start on the feature flag journey just because they have a high risk thing that they need to put out. So they do the minimal thing to basically control it somehow, but it works only in one part of the stacks. They can't basically leverage it anywhere else and it's very limited in capability so that it just serve the purpose that was needed at that time. They don't have a dedicated team to manage it. So it just there, but it's very constrained and it's not supported effectively. The other thing is like for those companies is like they have a question to ask themselves. It's like do they want to invest resources in managing that kind of tool or is it not so core to their business that they want essentially to have vendor deal with it at a much lower price and they would have to invest resources for them to support it, and... >> Sounds like feature flags are kind of a team building. Have you have a team building dimension to them? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It takes a team for sure. >> Yeah, and then once you add like AB testing and the feature flag, it's the collaboration between product management and engineering. It can go even further. Like two executives like to basically, you know, view the impact, understand the impact. So it goes from the control to the risk management to the product and to the impact and measuring the flow of delivery and the communication around it. >> Here we are at re:Invent, so many thousands of people as I mentioned, we're on the second full-day of the event. What have you heard from AWS that really excites you about being in their ecosystem? Any news in particular that jumps out at you that really speaks to improving that developer experience as if we've heard a lot of focus on the developer? >> Chris: Yeah, I haven't heard much, have you? >> So, I arrived yesterday, I haven't followed yet all the announcement, I'm just like, >> there's so many- >> on the news, yeah, yeah. >> So I'm on the booth at the same time. >> I stopped counting at 15 during the Keynote this morning. >> Many of them just can't keep up, there's so much happening at one time's so much. >> This event is a can of content, can of news re:Invent. It is hard. But yesterday they were spent so much time talking about data and how... And I always think every company today has to be a data company, have to be a software company, we were just talking with Capital One and they think of themselves as a technology company that does banking. And sometimes, I'll talk with retailers that think of themselves as technology companies that do retail and they love that but that's what companies like Split have to enable these days. It's companies to become technology companies, deliver code faster to customer because the customer's demanding it. We're not going to want less stuff slower. >> Yeah, I mean it's so essential I think for me like I joined Split because of that premises. Like every company now is a software company and every company has really to compete in innovation. You know all those banks, Capital One like we see it a lot in the financial industry where our message resonates extremely strongly is really in a high-competitive environment and they have to be innovative and innovation comes when people have speed and autonomy. And if you basically provide that to teams and the tools to basically get some signals and some quick feedback loop, that's how you get innovation. Like you can't decide what to build but you can basically provide the tools to enable them to think about. >> Right, you can experiment more flexibly right, faster. >> And developers have to be empowered, right? >> Yes. >> I think that's the probably one of the number one messages I've heard at all the shows we've done this year. How influential the developer is in the direction of the business. >> Autonomy and empowerment are two main factors 'cause I'm a front end developer at heart and I want to work on cool stuff and we're doing cool stuff. Like we are doing cool stuff. We can't talk about all of it, right? But I think we're doing a lot of cool things at Split and I'm really stoked to be a part of the team and grow developer relations, grow developer advocacy and be along for the journey. >> Yeah, I love that. Last question for both of you, same question. If you had a bumper sticker and you were going to put it on a fancy shiny new car, car of your choice about Split, what would it say? Pierre I'll start with you then Chris. >> Bumper sticker. >> On the spot question. >> On the question, (everyone laughs happily) I mean the easy answer is probably written on my t-shirt. Like, you know, 'What a Release, What a Relief'. I think that the first step for teams is like, you can have a message that's very like even further, you know, the Agile transformation is a journey and I basically tell people, you need to first crawl, walk and run and I think the 'What a Release, What a Relief' is a good step to like getting to the working. And I think like that would be the first bumper sticker before I get to the further one about AP testing and innovative. >> Love it. Chris, what would your bumper sticker say? >> It would say Split software, feature flags for the masses. Hard stop. >> Mic drop. >> Done. >> Awesome guys, thank you so much for joining Paul and me on the program. It's been outstanding introducing Split to our audience, what you do, how you're impacting the developer experience and ultimately, the business and the end customer on the backend who just wants things to work. We appreciate your insights, we appreciate your time. >> Thanks so much for having us. >> Appreciate it. >> Our pleasure. For our guests and Paul Gillin, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE, which you know is the leader in live enterprise and emerging tech coverage. (bright upbeat music)

>>Hey everyone, and welcome back to The Cube's live coverage of AWS Reinvented 2022 Live from the Venetian Expo in Las Vegas. We're happy to be back. This is first full day of coverage over here last night. We've got three full days of coverage in addition to last night, and there's about 50,000 people here. This event is ready, people are ready to be back, which is so exciting. Lisa Martin here with Paul Gill and Paul, it's great to be back in person. Great to be hosting with you >>And likewise with you, Lisa. I think the first time we hosted again, >>It is our first time exactly. >>And we come here to the biggest event that the cube ever does during the year. >>It's the Super Bowl of the >>Cube. It's it's elbow to elbow out there. It's, it's, it's full tackle football, totally on the, on the floor of reinvent. And very exciting. This, you know, I've been to a lot of conferences going back 40 years, long as I can remember. Been going to tech conferences. This one, the, the intensity, the excitement around this is really unusual. People are jazzed, they're excited to be here, and that's great to see, particularly coming back from two years of isolation. >>Absolutely. The energy is so palpable. Even yesterday, evening, afternoon when I was walking in, you just feel it with all the people here. You know, we talk to so many different companies on the Q Paul. Every company these days has to be a data company. The most important thing about data is making sure that it's backed up and it's protected, that it's secure, that it can be recovered if anything happens. So we're gonna be having a great conversation next about data resiliency with one of our alumni. >>And that would be Rick Scott, Rick, excuse me, Rick Scott, >>Rick Clark. Rick Clark, say Rick Scott, cloud sales Veritas. Rick, welcome back >>To the program. Thank you. Thank you so much. It's a pleasure being here, you know, thank you so much. You're definitely very excited to myself and 40,000 of my closest cousins and friends all in one place. Yep. Or I could possibly go wrong, right? So >>Yeah, absolutely nothing. So, Rick, so Veritas has made some exciting announcements. Talk to us about some of the new things that you've >>Unveiled. Yeah, we've been, we've been incredibly busy and, you know, the journey that we've been on, one of the big announcement that we made about three or four weeks ago is the introduction, really, of a brand new cloud native data management platform that we call Veritas Alta. And this is a journey that we've been on for the better part of seven years. We actually started it with our, our flex appliances. We continued, that was a containerization of our traditional net backup business in, into a highly secured appliance that was loved by our customers. And we continued that theme and that investment into what we call a scale out and scale up form factor appliance as well, what we called flex scale. And then we continued on that investment theme, basically spending over a billion dollars over that seven year journey in our cloud native. And we call that basically the Veritas altar platform with our cloud native platform. And I think if you really look at what that is, it truly is a data management platform. And I emphasize the term cloud native. And so our traditional technologies around data protection, obviously application resiliency and digital compliance or data compliance and governance. We are the only, the first and only company in the world to provide really a cloud optimized, cloud native platform, really, that addresses that. So it's been fun, it's been a fun journey. >>Talk a little bit about the customer experience. I see over 85% of the Fortune 100 trust Veritas with their data management. That's >>A big number. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it is incredible actually. And it really comes back to the Veritas older platform. We sort of built that with, with four tenants in mind, all driving back to this very similar to AWS's customer obsession. Everything we do each and every day of our waiting moments is a Veritas employee is really surrounds the customer. So it starts with the customer experience on how do they find us to, how do they procure our solutions through things like AWS marketplace and how do they deploy it? And the second thing is around really cost optimization, as we know, you know, to, to say that companies are going through a digital transformation and moving workloads to the cloud. I mean, I've got customers that literally were 20% in cloud a year ago and 80% a year later, we've never seen that kind of velocity. >>And so we've doubled down on this notion of cost optimization. You can only do that with these huge investments that I talked about. And so we're a very profitable company. We've been around, got a great heritage of over 30 years, and we've really taken those investments in r and d to provide that sort of cloud native technology to ultimately make it elastic. And so everything from will spin up and spin down services to optimize the cloud bill for our customers, but we'll also provide the greatest workload support. You know, obviously on-prem workloads are very different from cloud workloads and it's almost like turning the clock back 20 years to see all of those new systems. There's no standard API like s and MP on the network. And so we have to talk to every single PAs service, every single DB PAs, and we capture that information and protect it. So it's really has been a phenomenal journey. It's been great. >>You said this, that that al represents a shift from clouds from flex scale to cloud native. What is the difference there? >>The, the main difference really is we took, you know, obviously our traditional product that you've known for many media years, net backup. It's got, you know, tens of millions of lines of code in that. And we knew if we lifted and shifted it up into the cloud, into an I AEs infrastructure, it's just not, it obviously would perform extremely well, but it wasn't cost optimized for our customer. It was too expensive to to run. And so what we did is we rewrote with microservices and containerization, Kubernetes huge parts of that particular product to really optimize it for the cloud. And not only have we done it for that technology, what we now call alter data protection, but we've done it across our entire port portfolio. That was really the main change that we made as part of this particular transition. And >>What have you done to prepare customers for that shift? Is this gonna be a, a drop in simple upgrade for them? >>Absolutely. Yeah. In fact, one of the things that we introduced is we, we invest still very heavily with regards to our OnPrem solutions. We're certainly not abandoning, we're still innovating. There's a lot of data still OnPrem that needs to move to the cloud. And so we have a unique advantage of all of the different workload supports that we provide OnPrem. We continue that expansion into the cloud. So we, we create it as part of the Veritas AL Vision, a technology, we call it AL view. So it's a single painter glass across both OnPrem and cloud for our customers. And so now they can actually see all of their data protection, all our application availability, single collect, all through that single unified interface, which is really game changing in the industry for us. >>It's game changing for customers too, because customers have what generally six to seven different backup technologies in their environment that they're having to individually manage and provision. So the, the workforce productivity improvements I can imagine are, are huge with Veritas. >>Yeah. You you nailed it, right? You must have seen my script, but Absolutely. I mean, I look at the analogy of, you think about the airlines, what's one of the first things airlines do with efficiency? South Southwest Airlines was the best example, a standardized on the 7 37, right? And so all of their pilots, all of their mechanics, all know how to operate the 7 37. So we are doing the same thing with enterprise data protection. So whether you're OnPrem at the edge or in the cloud or even multi-cloud, we can provide that single painter glass. We've done it for our customers for 30 plus years. We'll continue to do it for another 30 something years. And so it's really the first time with Veritas altar that, that we're, we're coming out with something that we've invested for so long and put, put such a huge investment on that can create those changes and that compelling solution for our customers. So as you can see, we're pretty pumped and excited about it. >>Yes, I can >>Use the term data management to describe Alta, and I want to ask about that term because I hear it a lot these days. Data management used to be database, now data management is being applied to all kinds of different functions across the spectrum. How do you define data management in Veritas >>Perspective? Yeah, there's a, we, we see it as really three main pillars across the environment. So one is protection, and we'll talk a little bit about this notion of ransomware is probably the number one use case. So the ability to take the most complex and the biggest, most vast applications. SAP is an example with hundreds of different moving parts to it and being able to protect that. The second is application resiliency. If, if you look at the cloud, there's this notion of, of responsibility, shared responsibility in the cloud. You've heard it, right? Yep. Every single one of the cloud service providers, certainly AWS has up on their website, this is what we protect, here's the demarcation line, the line in the sand, and you, the customer are responsible for that other level. And so we've had a technology, you previously knew it as InfoScale, we now call it alter application resiliency. >>And it can provide availability zone to availability zone, real time replication, high availability of your mission critical applications, right? So not only do we do the traditional backups, but we can also provide application resiliency for mission critical. And then the third thing really from a data management standpoint is all around governance and compliance. You know, ac a lot of our customers need to keep data for five, 10 years or forever. They're audited. There's regulations and different geographies around the world. And, and those regulations require them to be able to really take control of their cloud, take control of their data. And so we have a whole portfolio of solutions under that data compliance, data government. So back to your, your question Paul, it's really the integration and the intersection of those three main pillars. We're not a one trick pony. We've been at this for a long time, and they're not just new products that we invented a couple of months ago and brought to market. They're tried and tested with eight 80,000 customers and the most complex early solutions on the planet that we've been supporting. >>I gotta ask you, you know, we talked about those three pillars and you talked about the shared responsibility model. And think of that where you mentioned aws, Salesforce, Microsoft 365, Google workspace, whatnot. Are you finding that most customers aren't aware of that and haven't been protecting those workloads and then come to you and saying, Hey guys, guess what, this is what this is what they're responsible for. The data is >>You Yeah, I, it's, it's our probably biggest challenge is, is one of awareness, you know, with the cloud, I mean, how many times have you spoken to someone? You just put it in the cloud. Your applications, like the cloud providers like aws, they'll protect everything. Nothing will ever go down. And it's kind like if you, unless your house was ever broken into, you're probably not gonna install that burglar alarm or that fire alarm, right? Hopefully that won't be an event that you guys have to suffer through. So yeah, it's definitely, it wasn't till the last year or so the cloud service providers really published jointly as to where is their responsibility, right? So a great example is an attack vector for a lot of corporations is their SAS applications. So, you know, whether it it's your traditional SA applications that is available that's available on the web to their customers as a sas. >>And so it's certainly available to the bad actors. They're gonna, where there's, there's gonna be a point they're gonna try to get in. And so no matter what your resiliency plan is, at the end of the day, you really need to protect it. And protection isn't just, for example, with M 365 having a snapshot or a recycle bin, that's just not good enough. And so we actually have some pretty compelling technology, what we call ALTA SAS protection, which covers the, pretty much the, the gamut of the major SAS technologies to protect those and make it available for our customers. So yeah, certainly it's a big part of it is awareness. Yeah. >>Well, I understand that the shared responsibility model, I, I realize there's a lot of confusion about that still, but in the SaaS world that's somewhat different. The responsibility of the SaaS provider for protecting data is somewhat different. How, how should, what should customers know about that? >>I think, you know, the, the related to that, if, if you look at OnPrem, you know, approximately 35 to 40% of OnPrem enterprise data is protected. It's kind of in a long traditional problem. Everyone's aware of it. You know, I remember going to a presentation from IBM 20 something years ago, and someone held their push hand up in the room about the dis drives and says, you need to back it up. And the IBM sales guy said, no, IBM dis drives never crash. Right? And so fast forward to here we are today, things have changed. So we're going through almost a similar sort of changes and culture in the cloud. 8% of the data in the cloud is protected today, 8%. That's incredible. Meaning >>That there is independent backup devoted >>To that data in some cases, not at all. And something many cases, the customer just assumes that it's in the cloud, therefore it's always available. I never have to worry about protecting it, right? And so that's a big problem that we're obviously trying to, trying to solve. And we do that all under the umbrella of ransomware. That's a huge theme, huge investment that, that Veritas does with regards to providing that resiliency for our >>Customers. Ransomware is scary. It is becoming so prolific. The bad actors have access to technologies. Obviously companies are fighting them, but now ransomware has evolved into, no longer are we gonna get hit, it's when, yeah, it's how often it's what's the damage going to be. So the ability to help customers recover from ransomware, that resiliency is table stakes for businesses in any industry these days. Does that, that one of the primary pain points that your customers are coming to you with? >>It's the number one pain point. Yeah, it's, it's incredible. I mean, there's not a single briefing that our teams are doing customer meetings where that term ransomware doesn't come up as, as their number one use case. Just to give you something, a couple of statistics. There's a ransomware attack attack that happens 11 times a second right around the globe. And this isn't just, you know, minor stuff, right? I've got friends that are, you know, executives of large company that have been hit that have that some, you know, multimillion dollar ransom attack. So our, our play on this is, when you think about it, is data protection is the last line of defense. Yes. And so if they break through, it's not a case, Lisa, as you mentioned, if it's a case of when Yeah. And so it's gonna happen. So one of the most important things is knowing how do you know you have a gold copy, a clean copy, and you can recover at speed in some cases. >>We're talking about tens of thousands of systems to do that at speed. That's in our dna. We've been doing it for many, many years. And we spoke through a lot of the cyber insurance companies on this particular topic as well. And what really came back from that is that they're actually now demanding things like immutable storage, malware detection, air gaping, right? Anomaly detection is sort of core technologies tick the box that they literally won't ensure you unless you have those core components. And so what we've done is we've doubled down on that investment. We use AI in ML technologies, particularly around the anomaly detection. One of the, the, the unique and ne differentiators that Verto provides is a ransomware resiliency scorecard. Imagine the ability to save uran a corporation. We can come in and run our analytics on your environment and kind of give you a grade, right? Wouldn't you prefer that than waiting for the event to take place to see where your vulnerability really is? And so these are some of the advantages that we can actually provide for our customers, really, really >>To help. Just a final quick question. There is a, a common perception, I believe that ransomware is an on premise problem. In fact, it is also a cloud problem. Is that not right? >>Oh, absolutely. I I think that probably the biggest attack vector is in the cloud. If it's, if it's OnPrem, you've certainly got a certain line of defense that's trying to break through. But, you know, you're in the open world there. Obviously with SAS applications in the cloud, it's not a case of if, but when, and it's, and it's gonna continue to get, you know, more and more prevalent within corporations. There's always gonna be those attack factors that they find the, the flash wounds that they can attack to break through. What we are concentrating on is that resiliency, that ability for customers to recover at speed. We've done that with our traditional appliances from our heritage OnPrem. We continue to do that with regard to resiliency at speed with our customers in the cloud, with partners like aws >>For sure. Almost done. Give me your 30 seconds on AWS and Veritas. >>We've had a partnership for the better part of 10 years. It's incredible when you think about aws, where they released the elastic compute back in 2006, right? We've been delivering data protection, a data management solutions for, for the better part of 30 years, right? So, so we're, we're Junos in our space. We're the leader in, in data protection and enterprise data protection. We were on-prem. We, we continue to be in the cloud as AWS was with the cloud service provided. So the synergies are incredible. About 80 to 85% of our, our joint customers are the same. We take core unique superpowers of aws, like AWS outposts and AWS Glacier Instant retrieval, for example, those core technologies and incorporate them into our products as we go to Mark. And so we released a core technology a few months ago, we call it ultra recovery vault. And it's an air gap, a mutable storage, worm storage, right Once, right? You can't change it even when the bad actors try to get in. They're independent from the customer's tenant and aws. So we manage it as a managed backup service for our customers. Got it. And so our customers are using that to really help them with their ransomware. So it's been a tremendous partnership with AWS >>Standing 10 years of accounting. Last question for you, Rick. You got a billboard on the 1 0 1 in Santa Clara, right? By the fancy Verto >>1 0 1? >>Yeah. Right. Well, there's no traffic. What does that billboard say? What's that bumper sticker about? Vertus, >>I think, I think the billboard would say, welcome to the new Veritas. This is not your grandfather's old mobile. We've done a phenomenal job in, in the last, particularly the last three or four years, to really reinvent ourselves in the cloud and the investments that we made are really paying off for our customers today. So I'm excited to be part of this journey and excited to talk to you guys today. >>Love it. Not your grandfather's Veritas. Rick, thank you so much for joining Paula, me on the forgot talking about what you guys are doing, how you're helping customers, really established that cyber of resiliency, which is absolutely critical these days. We appreciate your >>Time. My pleasure. Thank you so much. >>All right, for our guest and Paul Gilland, I'm Lisa Martin, you're watching the Queue, which as you know is the leader in live enterprise and emerging check coverage.

(upbeat music) >> Welcome back. We're here at Supercomputing 22 in Dallas. My name's Paul Gill, I'm your host. With me, Dave Nicholson, my co-host. And one thing that struck me about this conference arriving here, was the number of universities that are exhibiting here. I mean, big, big exhibits from universities. Never seen that at a conference before. And one of those universities is Indiana University. Our two guests, Dave Jent, who's the AVP of Networks at Indiana University, Aaron Neal, Deputy CIO at Indiana University. Welcome, thanks for joining us. >> Thank you for having us. >> Thank you. >> I've always thought that the CIO job at a university has got to be the toughest CIO job there is, because you're managing this sprawling network, people are doing all kinds of different things on it. You've got to secure it. You've got to make it performant. And it just seems to be a big challenge. Talk about the network at Indiana University and what you have done particularly since the pandemic, how that has affected the architecture of your network. And what you do to maintain the levels of performance and security that you need. >> On the network side one of the things we've done is, kept in close contact with what the incoming students are looking for. It's a different environment than it was then 10 years ago when a student would come, maybe they had a phone, maybe they had one laptop. Today they're coming with multiple phones, multiple laptops, gaming devices. And the expectation that they have to come on a campus and plug all that stuff in causes lots of problems for us, in managing just the security aspect of it, the capacity, the IP space required to manage six, seven devices per student when you have 35,000 students on campus, has always been a challenge. And keeping ahead of that knowing what students are going to come in with, has been interesting. During the pandemic the campus was closed for a bit of time. What we found was our biggest challenge was keeping up with the number of people who wanted to VPN to campus. We had to buy additional VPN licenses so they could do their work, authenticate to the network. We doubled, maybe even tripled our our VPN license count. And that has settled down now that we're back on campus. But again, they came back with a vengeance. More gaming devices, more things to be connected, and into an environment that was a couple years old, that we hadn't done much with. We had gone through a pretty good size network deployment of new hardware to try to get ready for them. And it's worked well, but it's always challenging to keep up with students. >> Aaron, I want to ask you about security because that really is one of your key areas of focus. And you're collaborating with counties, local municipalities, as well as other educational institutions. How's your security strategy evolving in light of some of the vulnerabilities of VPNs that became obvious during the pandemic, and this kind of perfusion of new devices that that Dave was talking about? >> Yeah, so one of the things that we we did several years ago was establish what we call OmniSOC, which is a shared security operations center in collaboration with other institutions as well as research centers across the United States and in Indiana. And really what that is, is we took the lessons that we've learned and the capabilities that we've had within the institution and looked to partner with those key institutions to bring that data in-house, utilize our staff such that we can look for security threats and share that information across the the other institutions so that we can give each of those areas a heads up and work with those institutions to address any kind of vulnerabilities that might be out there. One of the other things that you mentioned is, we're partnering with Purdue in the Indiana Office of Technology on a grant to actually work with municipalities, county governments, to really assess their posture as it relates to security in those areas. It's a great opportunity for us to work together as institutions as well as work with the state in general to increase our posture as it relates to security. >> Dave, what brings IU to Supercomputing 2022? >> We've been here for a long time. And I think one of the things that we're always interested in is, what's next? What's new? There's so many, there's network vendors, software vendors, hardware vendors, high performance computing suppliers. What is out there that we're interested in? IU runs a large Cray system in Indiana called Big Red 200. And with any system you procure it, you get it running, you operate it, and your next goal is to upgrade it. And what's out there that we might be interested? That I think why we come to IU. We also like to showcase what we do at IU. If you come by the booth you'll see the OmniSOC, there's some video on that. The GlobalNOC, which I manage, which supports a lot of the RNE institutions in the country. We talk about that. Being able to have a place for people to come and see us. If you stand by the booth long enough people come and find you, and want to talk about a project they have, or a collaboration they'd like to partner with. We had a guy come by a while ago wanting a job. Those are all good things having a big booth can do for you. >> Well, so on that subject, in each of your areas of expertise and your purview are you kind of interleaved with the academic side of things on campus? Do you include students? I mean, I would think it would be a great source of cheap labor for you at least. Or is there kind of a wall between what you guys are responsible for and what students? >> Absolutely we try to support faculty and students as much as we can. And just to go back a little bit on the OmniSOC discussion. One of the things that we provide is internships for each of the universities that we work with. They have to sponsor at least three students every year and make that financial commitment. We bring them on site for three weeks. They learn us alongside the other analysts, information security analysts and work in a real world environment and gain those skills to be able to go back to their institutions and do an additional work there. So it's a great program for us to work with students. I think the other thing that we do is we provide obviously the infrastructure that enable our faculty members to do the research that they need to do. Whether that's through Big Red 200, our Supercomputer or just kind of the everyday infrastructure that allows them to do what they need to do. We have an environment on premise called our Intelligent Infrastructure, that we provide managed access to hardware and storage resources in a way that we know it's secure and they can utilize that environment to do virtually anything that they need in a server environment. >> Dave, I want to get back to the GigaPOP, which you mentioned earlier you're the managing director of the Indiana GigaPOP. What exactly is it? >> Well, the GigaPOP and there are a number of GigaPOP around the country. It was really the aggregation facility for Indiana and all of the universities in Indiana to connect to outside resources. GigaPOP has connections to internet too, the commodity internet, Esnet, the Big Ten or the BTAA a network in Chicago. It's a way for all universities in Indiana to connect to a single source to allow them to connect nationally to research organizations. >> And what are the benefits of having this collaboration of university. >> If you could think of a researcher at Indiana wants to do something with a researcher in Wisconsin, they both connect to their research networks in Wisconsin and Indiana, and they have essentially direct connection. There's no commodity internet, there's no throttling of of capacity. Both networks and the interconnects because we use internet too, are essentially UNT throttled access for the researchers to do anything they need to do. It's secure, it's fast, easy to use, in fact, so easy they don't even know that they're using it. It just we manage the networks and organize the networks in a way configure them that's the path of least resistance and that's the path traffic will take. And that's nationally. There are lots of these that are interconnected in various ways. I do want to get back to the labor point, just for a moment. (laughs) Because... >> You're here to claim you're not violating any labor laws. Is that what you're going to be? >> I'm here to hopefully hire, get more people to be interested to coming to IU. >> Stop by the booth. >> It's a great place to work. >> Exactly. >> We hire lots of interns and in the network space hiring really experienced network engineers, really hard to do, hard to attract people. And these days when you can work from anywhere, you don't have to be any place to work for anybody. We try to attract as many students as we can. And really we're exposing 'em to an environment that exists in very few places. Tens of thousands of wireless access points, big fast networks, interconnections and national international networks. We support the Noah network which supports satellite systems and secure traffic. It really is a very unique experience and you can come to IU, spend lots of years there and never see the same thing twice. We think we have an environment that's really a good way for people to come out of college, graduate school, work for some number of years and hopefully stay at IU, but if not, leave and get a good job and talk well about IU. In fact, the wireless network today here at SC was installed and is managed by a person who manages our campus network wireless, James Dickerson. That's the kind of opportunity we can provide people at IU. >> Aaron, I'd like to ask, you hear a lot about everything moving to the cloud these days, but in the HPC world I don't think that move is happening as quickly as it is in some areas. In fact, there's a good argument some workloads should never move to the cloud. You're having to balance these decisions. Where are you on the thinking of what belongs in the data center and what belongs in the cloud? >> I think our approach has really been specific to what the needs are. As an institution, we've not pushed all our chips in on the cloud, whether it be for high performance computing or otherwise. It's really looking at what the specific need is and addressing it with the proper solution. We made an investment several years ago in a data center internally, and we're leveraging that through the intelligent infrastructure that I spoke about. But really it's addressing what the specific need is and finding the specific solution, rather than going all in in one direction or another. I dunno if Jet Stream is something that you would like to bring up as well. >> By having our own data center and having our own facilities we're able to compete for NSF grants and work on projects that provide shared resources for the research community. Just dream is a project that does that. Without a data center and without the ability to work on large projects, we don't have any of that. If you don't have that then you're dependent on someone else. We like to say that, what we are proud of is the people come to IU and ask us if they can partner on our projects. Without a data center and those resources we are the ones who have to go out and say can we partner on your project? We'd like to be the leaders of that in that space. >> I wanted to kind of double click on something you mentioned. Couple of things. Historically IU has been I'm sure closely associated with Chicago. You think of what are students thinking of doing when they graduate? Maybe they're going to go home, but the sort of center of gravity it's like Chicago. You mentioned talking about, especially post pandemic, the idea that you can live anywhere. Not everybody wants to live in Manhattan or Santa Clara. And of course, technology over decades has given us the ability to do things remotely and IU is plugged into the globe, doesn't matter where you are. But have you seen either during or post pandemic 'cause we're really in the early stages of this. Are you seeing that? Are you seeing people say, Hey, thinking about their family, where do I want to live? Where do I want to raise my family? I'm in academia and no, I don't want to live in Manhattan. Hey, we can go to IU and we're plugged into the globe. And then students in California we see this, there's some schools on the central coast where people loved living there when they were in college but there was no economic opportunity there. Are you seeing a shift, are basically houses in Bloomington becoming unaffordable because people are saying, you know what, I'm going to stay here. What does that look like? >> I mean, for our group there are a lot of people who do work from home, have chosen to stay in Bloomington. We have had some people who for various reasons want to leave. We want to retain them, so we allow them to work remotely. And that has turned into a tool for recruiting. The kid that graduates from Caltech. Doesn't want to stay in Caltech in California, we have an opportunity now he can move to wherever between here and there and we can hire him do work. We love to have people come to Indiana. We think it is a unique experience, Bloomington, Indianapolis are great places. But I think the reality is, we're not going to get everybody to come live, be a Hoosier, how do we get them to come and work at IU? In some ways disappointing when we don't have buildings full of people, but 40 paying Zoom or teams window, not kind the same thing. But I think this is what we're going to have to figure out, how do we make this kind of environment work. >> Last question here, give you a chance to put in a plug for Indiana University. For those those data scientists those researchers who may be open to working somewhere else, why would they come to Indiana University? What's different about what you do from what every other academic institution does, Aaron? >> Yeah, I think a lot of what we just talked about today in terms of from a network's perspective, that were plugged in globally. I think if you look beyond the networks I think there are tremendous opportunities for folks to come to Bloomington and experience some bleeding edge technology and to work with some very talented people. I've been amazed, I've been at IU for 20 years and as I look at our peers across higher ed, well, I don't want to say they're not doing as well I do want brag at how well we're doing in terms of organizationally addressing things like security in a centralized way that really puts us in a better position. We're just doing a lot of things that I think some of our peers are catching up to and have been catching up to over the last 10, 12 years. >> And I think to sure scale of IU goes unnoticed at times. IU has the largest medical school in the country. One of the largest nursing schools in the country. And people just kind of overlook some of that. Maybe we need to do a better job of talking about it. But for those who are aware there are a lot of opportunities in life sciences, healthcare, the social sciences. IU has the largest logistics program in the world. We teach more languages than anybody else in the world. The varying kinds of things you can get involved with at IU including networks, I think pretty unparalleled. >> Well, making the case for high performance computing in the Hoosier State. Aaron, Dave, thanks very much for joining you making a great case. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> We'll be back right after this short message. This is theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>>The cube presents Koon and cloud native con Europe, 2022, brought to you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem partners. >>Welcome to Valencia Spain and CubeCon cloud native con Europe, 2022 I'm cube Townsend, along with Paul Gill, senior editor, enterprise architecture at Silicon angle. We are talking to some incredible folks this week, continuing the conversation around enabling developers to do their work. Paul you've said that this conference is about developers. What are you finding key as a theme running throughout the show >>That that developers really need a whole set of special tools. You know, it's not the end user, the end user tools, the end user access controls the authentication it's developers need a need their own to live their in their own environment. They need their own workflow tools, their own collaboration and their own security. And that's where teleport comes in. >>So speaking of teleport, we have Michael fork, chief marking our officer at teleport new world role for you. First, tell me about how long have you been at teleport now >>Going on seven or eight months now, >>Seven or eight months in this fast moving market. I'm I'm going to tell you a painful experience I've had in this new world. We've built applications. We've moved fast audits come in. The auditors have come in and they said, you know what, who authorized this change to the cluster? And we'll go into the change ticket and say, this person authorized the changes and the change ticket. And then they'll ask for trace back. Okay. Show me the change. What do it mean? Show you the changes. It just happened. >>Yeah. Check, check GitHub. >>Yeah, check GI, get, see, we, we, we, we said we were gonna make the changes, the change happen. That's not enough. What are CU, how are you helping customers solve this access control and audit problem? >>Yeah, that's a great question. There're kind of, there're kind of two, two sides to the puzzle. And actually I think that the intro hits it. Well, you you've talked about kind of developer experience needing needing tools to more efficiently do the job as a practitioner. And you're coming at it from kind of a security and compliance angle. And there's a tension between both of those teams. It's like, you know, there's, there's a tension between dev and ops before we created DevOps. There's also a tension between kind of security teams and developers. So we've created dev SecOps. What that means is you need an easy way for developers to get access, access to the resources they needed through their jobs. That's, you know, Linux hosts and databases and Kubernetes clusters and, you know, monitoring dashboards and managing all of those credentials is quite cumbersome. If I need to access a dozen systems, then you know, I'm using SSH keys to access this. >>I have admin credentials for my database. I I'm going through a VPN to access an internal dashboard, teleport, consolidates, all of that access into a single login via your identity provider, Okta active directory, but then on the security and compliance side, we make it really easy for that compliance officer. When they say, show me that change, we have all of the audit logs. That's that show exactly what changes Keith made when he logged into, into that system. And in fact, one of the booths behind here is talking about E B P F a modern way to get that kind of kernel level grade granularity. We build all of that observability into teleport to make the security and compliance teams happy. And the engineering teams a lot more productive. >>Where do the, the access control tools like Okta, you mentioned fall short. I mean, why, why is there a need for your level of, of control at the control plane? >>Yeah. When you, when you start to talk about authorization, authentication, audit at the infrastructure level, each of these technologies has its own way of managing what kind of in, in the jargon often and Ze, right? Authentication authorization. So you have SSH for, for Linux. Kubernetes has its own way of doing authorization. All of the database providers have their own way and it's quite complicated, right? It's, it's much different. So, you know, if I'm gonna access office 365 or I'm gonna a access Salesforce, right. I'm really talking about the HTTP protocol. It's relatively trivial to implement single sign on for web-based applications. But when we start talking about things that are happening at the Linux kernel level, or with Kubernetes, it's quite complicated to build those integrations. And that's where teleport extends what you have with your IDP. So for instance, Okta, lots of our customers use Okta as their identity provider, but then teleport takes those roles and applies them and enforces them at the actual infrastructure level. >>So if I'm a lay developer, I'm looking at this thinking, you know, I, I have service mesh, I've implemented link D SEO or something to that level. And I also have Ansible and Ansible has security, etcetera. What, what role, or how does that integrate to all together from a big picture perspective? >>Yeah. So >>What, one of the, kind of the meta themes at teleport is we, we like to, we like to say that we are fighting complexity cuz as we build new technologies, we tend to run the new tech on top of the old tech. Whereas for instance, when you buy a new car, you typically don't, you know, hook the old car to the back and then pull it around with you. Right? We, we replace old technology with new technology, but in infrastructure that doesn't happen as often. And so you end up with kind of layers of complexity with one protocol sitting on top of another protocol on top of another protocol. And what teleport does is for the access control plane, we, we kind of replace the legacy ways of doing authentication authorization and audit with a new modern experience. But we allow you to continue to use the existing tools. >>So we don't replace, for instance, you know, your configuration management system, you can keep using Ansible or, or salt or Jenkins, but teleport now is gonna give those, those scripts or those pipelines in identity that you can define. What, what should Ansible be able to do? Right? If, cuz people are worried about supply chain attacks, if a, if a vulnerable dependency gets introduced into your supply chain pipeline and your kind of Ansible playbook goes crazy and starts deploying that vulnerability everywhere, that's probably something you wanna limit with teleport. You can limit that with an identity, but you can still use the tools that you're, that you're used to. >>So how do I guarantee something like an ex-employee doesn't come in and, and initiate Ansible script that was sitting in the background just waiting to happen until, you know, they left. >>Yeah. Great question. It's there's kind of the, the, the great resignation that's happening. We did a survey where actually we asked the question kind of, you know, can you guarantee that X employees can no longer access your infrastructure? And shockingly like 89% of companies could not guarantee that it's like, wow, that's like that should, that should be a headline somewhere. And we actually just learned that there are on the dark web, there are people that are targeting current employees of Netflix and Uber and trying to buy credentials of those employees to the infrastructure. So it's a big problem with teleport. We solve this in a really easy, transparent way for developers. Everything that we do is based on short lift certificates. So unlike a SSH key, which exists until you decommission it, shortlist certificates by, by default expire. And if you don't reissue them based on a new login based on the identity, then, then you can't do anything. So even a stolen credential kind of the it's value decreases dramatically over time. >>So that statistic or four out of five companies can't guarantee X employees can't access infrastructure. Why is simply removing the employee from the, you know, from the L app or directory decommissioning their login credentials. Why is that not sufficient? >>Well, it, it depends on if everything is integrated into your identity provider and because of the complexities of accessing infrastructure, we know that developers are creative people. And by, by kind of by definition, they're able to create systems to make their lives easier. So one thing that we see developers doing is kind of copying an SSH key to a local notepad on, on their computer. So they essentially can take that credential out of a vault. They can put it somewhere that's easier for them to access. And if you're not rotating that credential, then I can also, you know, copy it to a, to a personal device as well. Same thing for shared admin credentials. So the, the, the issue is that those credentials are not completely managed in a unified way that enables the developer to not go around the system in order to make their lives easier. >>But rather to actually use the system, there's a, there's a market called privilege access management that a lot of enterprises are using to kind of manage credentials for their developers, but it's notoriously disruptive to developer workflows. And so developers kind of go around the system in order to make their jobs easier. What teleport does is we obviate the need to go around the system, cuz the simplest thing is just to come in in the morning, log in one time to my identity provider. And now I have access to all of my servers, all of my databases, all of my Kubernetes clusters with a short lift certificate, that's completely transparent. And does >>This apply to, to your, both your local and your cloud accounts? >>Yes. Yes, exactly. >>So as a security company, what's driving the increase in security breaches. Is it the lack of developer hygiene? Is it this ex-employee great resignation bill. Is it external intruders? What's driving security breaches today. >>Yes. >>It's you know, it's, it's all of those things. I think if I had to put, give you a one word answer, I would say complexity. The systems that we are building are just massively complex, right? Look at how many vendors there are at this show in order to make Kubernetes easy to use, to do what its promises. It's just, we're building very complex systems. When you build complex systems, there's a lot of back doors, we call it kind of a tax surface. And that's why for every new thing that we introduce, we also need to think about how do we remove old layers of the stack so that we can simplify so that we can consolidate and take advantage of the power of something like Kubernetes without introducing security vulnerabilities. >>One of the problems or challenges with security solutions is, you know, you there's this complexity versus flexibility knob that you, you need to be careful of. What's the deployment experience in integration experience for deploying teleport. >>Yeah, it's it, we built it to be cloud native to feel like any other kind of cloud native or Kubernetes like solution. So you basically, you deploy it using helm chart, you deploy it using containers and we take care of all of the auto configuration and auto update. So that it's just, it's, it's part of your stack and you manage it using the same automation that you use to manage everything else. That's a, that's a big kind of installation and developer experience. Part of it. If it's complex to use, then not only are developers not gonna use it. Operations teams are not gonna want to have to deal with it. And then you're left with doing things the old way, which is very unsatisfactory for everybody. >>How does Kubernetes change the security equation? Are there vulnerabilities? It introduces to the, to the stack that maybe companies aren't aware of >>Almost by definition. Yes. Kind of any new technology is gonna introduce new security vulnerabilities. That's the that's that is the result of the complexity, which is, there are things that you just don't know when you introduce new components. I think kind of all of the supply chain vulnerabilities are our way of looking at that, which is we have, you know, Kubernetes is itself built on a lot of dependencies. Those dependencies themselves could have security vulnerabilities. You might have a package that's maintained by one kind of hobbyist developer, but that's actually deployed across hundreds of thousands of applications across, across the internet. So again, it's about one understanding that that complexity exists and then saying, is there a way that we can kind of layer on a solution that provides a common layer to let us kind of avoid that complexity and say, okay, every critical action needs to be authorized with an identity that way if it's automated or if it's human, I have that level of assurance that a hacked Ansible pipeline is not going to be able to introduce vulnerabilities across my entire infrastructure. >>So one of the challenges for CIOs and CTOs, it's the lack of developer resources and another resulting pain point that compounds that issue is rework due to security audits is teleport a source of truth that when a auditor comes in to audit a, a, a, a C I C D pipeline that the developer or, or operations team can just say, Hey, here's, self-service get what you need. And come back to us with any questions or is there a second set of tools we have to use to get that audit and compliance reporting? >>Yeah, it's teleport can be that single source of truth. We can also integrate with your other systems so you can export all of the, what we call access logs. So every, every behavior that took place, every query that was run on a database, every, you know, curl command that was run on a Lennox, host, teleport is creating a log of that. And so you can go in and you can filter and you can view those, those actions within teleport. But we also integrate with other systems that, that people are using, you have its Splunk or Datadog or whatever other tool chain it's really important that we integrate, but you can also use teleport as that single source. So >>You can work with the observability suites that are now being >>Installed. Yeah, there, the, the wonderful thing about kind of an ecosystem like Kubernetes is there's a lot of standardization. You can pick your preferred tool, but under the hood, the protocols for taking a log and putting it in another system are standardized. And so we can integrate with any of the tools that developers are already using. >>So how big is teleport when I'm thinking about a, from a couple of things big as in what's the footprint and then from a developer operations team overhead, is this kind of a set and forget it, how much care feed and maintenance does it >>Need? So it's very lightweight. We basically have kind of two components. There's the, the access proxy that sits in front of your infrastructure. And that's what enables us to, you know, regardless of the complexity that sits across your multi data center footprint, your traditional applications, running on windows, your, your, your modern applications running on, you know, Linux and Kubernetes, we provide seamless access to all of that. And then there's an agent that runs on all of your hosts. And this is the part that can be deployed using yo helm or any other kind of cloud native deployment methodology that enables us to do the, the granular application level audit. For instance, what queries are actually being run on CockroachDB or on, on Postgres, you know, what, what CIS calls are running on Linnux kernel, very lightweight automation can be used to install, manage, upgrade all of it. And so from an operations perspective, kind of bringing in teleport shouldn't be any more complicated than running any application on a container. That's, that's the design goal and what we built for our customers. >>If I'm in a hybrid environment, I'm transitioning, I'm making the migration to teleport. Is this a team? Is this a solution that sits only on the Kubernetes cloud native side? Or is this something that I can trans transition to initially, and then migrate all of my applications to, as I transition to cloud native? >>Yeah. We, there are kind of, no, there are no cloud native dependencies for teleport. Meaning if you are, you're a hundred percent windows shop, then we support for instance, RDP. That's the way in which windows handles room access. If you have some applications that are running on Linux, we can support that as well. If you've got kind of the, you know, the complete opposite in the spectrum, you're doing everything, cloud native containers, Kubernetes, everything. We also support that. >>Well, Michael, I really appreciate you stopping by and sharing the teleport story. Security is becoming an obvious pain point for cloud native and container management. And teleport has a really good story around ensuring compliance and security from Licia Spain. I'm Keith towns, along with Paul Gillon and you're watching the cue, the, the leader, not the, the leader two, the high take tech coverage.

>>The cube presents, Coon and cloud native con Europe 22, brought to you by the cloud native computing foundation. >>Welcome to the cube coverage of CubeCon 2022 EU. I'm here with my cohost Paul Gill. Please work with you, Keith. Nice to work with you, Paul. And we have our first two guests. The cube is hot. I'm telling you we are having interviews before the start of even the show floor I have with me. We gotta start with the customers first enterprise architect, a non-con Aon con. Welcome to the show. >>Thank you so >>Much. Cube time cube time. First now you're at cube alumni. Yep. <laugh> and, and, uh, has Havani CEO. Arai welcome back. Nice to, >>Uh, >>Talk to you again today. So we're talking all things Kubernetes and we're super excited to talk to MoneyGram about their journey to Kubernetes. First question I have for Anon. Talk to us about what your pre Kubernetes landscape looked like. >>Yeah, certainly. Uh, Keith, so, um, we had a, uh, you know, a traditional mix of legacy applications and modern applications. Uh, you know, a few years ago we made the decision to move to a microservices architecture. Um, and this was all happening while we were still on prem. Right? So your traditional VMs, um, and you know, we started 20, 30 microservices, but with the microservices packing, you know, you quickly expand to hundreds of microservices. Um, and we started getting to that stage where managing them without sort of an orchestration platform, uh, and just as traditional VMs was getting to be really challenging, right. Uh, especially from a day two operational, uh, you know, you can manage 10, 15 microservices, but when you start having 50 and so forth, um, all those concerns around, uh, you know, high availability, operational performance. Um, so we started looking at some open source projects, you know, spring cloud. Uh, we are predominantly a Java, um, shop. So we looked at the spring cloud projects. Uh, they give you a number, uh, you know, of initiatives, um, for doing some of those, um, management and what we realized again, to manage those components, um, without sort of a platform was really challenging. So that, that kind of led us to sort of Kubernetes where, um, along with our journey cloud, uh, it was the platform that could help us with a lot of those management operational concerns. >>So as you talk about some of those challenges, pre Kubernetes, what were some of the operational issues that you folks experienced? >>Yeah. You know, uh, certain things like auto scaling is, is number one, right? I mean, that's a fundamental concept of cloud native, right. Is, um, how do you auto scale VMs? Right. Uh, you can put in some old methods and stuff, but, uh, it was really hard to do that automatically. Right. So, uh, Kubernetes with like HPA gives you those out of the box, right? Provided you set the right policies. Uh, you can have auto scaling, uh, where it can scale up and scale back. So we were doing that manually. Right. So before, uh, you know, MoneyGram, obviously, you know, holiday season, people are sending more money mother's day. Um, our ops team would go in basically manually scale, uh, VMs. Right. So we'd go from four instances to maybe eight instances. Right. Uh, but, but that entailed outages. Right. Um, and just to plan around doing that manually and then sort of scale them back was a lot of overhead, a lot of administration overhead. Right. So, uh, we wanted something that could help us do that automatically right. In a, in an efficient, uh, unintrusive way. So, so, you know, that was one of the things, uh, monitoring, um, and, and management, uh, operations, you know, just kind of visibility into how those applications were during, what were the status of your, um, workloads was also a challenge, right. Uh, to do that. >>So, cause see, I gotta ask the question. If someone would've came to me with that problem, I'd just say, you know, what, go to the plug, the cloud, what, how does, uh, your group help solve some of these challenges? What do you guys do? >>Yeah. What, what do we do? So here's my perspective on the market as it's playing out. So I see a bifurcation happening in the Kubernetes space, but there's the Kubernetes run time. So Amazon is EKS Azure as EKS, you know, there's enough of these available. They're not managed services. They're actually really good, frankly. Right? In fact, retail customers, if you're an Amazon, why would you spin up your own? Just use EK. It's awesome. But then there's an operational layer that is needed to run Kubernetes. Uh, my perspective is that, you know, 50,000 enterprises are adopting Kubernetes over the next five to 10 years. And they're all gonna go through the same exact journey and they're all gonna end up, you know, potentially making the same mistake, which is, they're gonna assume that Kubernetes is easy. <laugh> they're gonna say, well, this is not hard. I got this up and running on my laptop. >>This is so easy. No worries. Right. I can do key gas, but then, okay. Can you consistently spin up these things? Can you scale them consistently? Do you have the right blueprints in place? Do you have the right access management in place? Do you have the right policies in place? Can you deploy applications consistently? Do you have monitoring and visibility into those things? Do your developers have access to when they need it? Do you have the right networking layer in place? Do you have the right chargebacks in place? Remember you have multiple teams and by the way, nobody has a single cluster. So you gotta do this across multiple clusters. And some of them have multiple clouds, not because they wanna be multiple clouds because, but sometimes you buy a company and they happen to be in Azure. How many dashboards do you have now across all the open source technologies that you have identified to solve these problems? >>This is where pain lies. So I think that Kubernetes is fundamentally a solve problem. Like our friends at AWS and Azure they've solved this problem. It's like a KSKS et cetera, GK for that matter. They're they're great. And you should use them and don't even think about spinning up Q B and a best clusters. Don't do it. Use the platforms that exist and commensurately on premises. OpenShift is pretty awesome, right? If you like it, use it. But then when it comes to the operations layer, right, that's where today we end up investing in a DevOps team and then an SRE organization that need to become experts in Kubernetes. And that is not tenable, right? Can you let's say unlimited capital unlimited budgets. Can you hire 20 people to do Kubernetes today? >>If you could find them, if >>You can find 'em right. So even if you could, the point is that see, five years ago, when your competitors were not doing Kubernetes, it was a competitive advantage to go build a team to do Kubernetes. So you could move faster today. You know, there's a high chance that your competitors are already buying from a Rafa or somebody like Rafa. So now it's better to take these really, really sharp engineers and have them work on things that make the company money, writing operations for Kubernetes. This is a commodity. Now >>How confident are you that the cloud providers won't get in and do what you do and put you out of business? >>Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I think, I mean, in fact, I, I had a conversation with somebody from HBS this morning and I was telling them, I don't think you have a choice. You have to do this right. Competition is not a bad thing. Right? This, the, >>If we are the only company in a space, this is not a space, right. The bet we are making is that every enterprise has, you know, they have an on-prem strategy. They have at least a handful of, everybody's got at least two clouds that they're thinking about. Everybody starts with one cloud and then they have some other cloud that they're also thinking about, um, for them to only rely on one cloud's tools to solve for on-prem plus that second cloud, they potentially, they may have, that's a tough thing to do. Um, and at the same time we as a vendor, I mean the only real reason why startups survive is because you have technology that is truly differentiated, right. Otherwise, right. I mean, you gotta build something that is materially. Interesting. Right. We seem to have, sorry, go ahead. >>No, I was gonna ask you, you actually had me thinking about something, a non yes. MoneyGram big, well known company, a startup, adding, working in a space with Google, VMware, all the biggest names. What brought you to Rafi to solve this operational challenge? >>Yeah. Good question. So when we started out sort of in our Kubernetes, um, you know, we had heard about EKS, uh, and, and we are an AWS shop. So, uh, that was the most natural path. And, and we looked at, um, EKS and, and used that to, you know, create our clusters. Um, but then we realized very quickly that yes, toe's point AWS manages the control plane for you. It gives you the high availability. So you're not managing those components, which is some really heavy lifting. Right. Uh, but then what about all the other things like, you know, centralized dashboard, what about, we need to provision, uh, Kubernetes clusters on multi-cloud right. We have other clouds that we use, uh, or also on prem. Right. Um, how do you do some of that stuff? Right. Um, we, we also, at that time were looking at, uh, other, uh, tools also. >>And I had, I remember come up with an MVP list that we needed to have in place for day one or day two, uh, operations, right. To before we even launch any single applications into production. Um, and my ops team looked at that list. Um, and literally there was only one or two items that they could check, check off with S you know, they they've got the control plane, they've got the cluster provision, but what about all those other components? Uh, and some of that kind of led us down the path of, uh, you know, looking at, Hey, what's out there in this space. And, and we realized pretty quickly that there weren't too many, there were some large providers and capabilities like Antos, but we felt that it was, uh, a little too much for what we were trying to do. You know, at that point in time, we wanted to scale slowly. We wanted to minimize our footprint. Um, and, and Rafa seemed to sort of, uh, was, was a nice mix, uh, you know, uh, from all those different angles, how >>Was, how was the situation affecting your developer experience? >>So, um, so that's a really good question also. So operations was one aspect of, to it, right? The other part is the application development, right? We've got, uh, you know, Moneygrams when a lot of organizations have a plethora of technologies, right? From, from Java to.net to no GS, what have you, right. Um, now as you start saying, okay, now we're going cloud native, and we're gonna start deploying to Kubernetes. Um, there's a fair amount of overhead because a tech stack, all of a sudden goes from, you know, just being Java or just being.net to things like Docker, right? All these container orchestration and deployment concerns, Kubernetes, uh, deployment artifacts, right. I gotta write all this YAML, uh, as my developer say, YAML, hell right. <laugh>, uh, I gotta learn Docker files. I need to figure out, um, a package manager like helm, uh, on top of learning all the Kubernetes artifacts. >>Right. So, um, initially we went with sort of, okay, you know, we can just train our developers. Right. Um, and that was wrong. Right. I mean, you can't assume that everyone is gonna sort of learn all these deployment concerns, uh, and we'll adopt them. Right. Um, uh, there's a lot of stuff that's outside of their sort of core dev domain, uh, that you're putting all this burden on them. Right. So, um, we could not rely on them and to be sort of cube cuddle experts, right. That that's a fair amount, overhead learning curve there. Um, so Rafa again, from their dashboard perspective, right? So the managed cube cuddle gives you that easy access for devs, right. Where they can go and monitor the status of their workloads. Um, they can, they don't have to figure out, you know, configuring all these tools locally just to get it to work. >>Uh, we did some things from a DevOps perspective to basically streamline and automate that process. But then also office order came in and helped us out, uh, on kind of that providing that dashboard. They don't have to worry. They can basically get on through single sign on and have visibility into the status of their deployment. Uh, they can do troubleshooting diagnostics all through a single pane of glass. Right. Which was a key key item. Uh, initially before Rafa, we were doing that command line. Right. And again, just getting some of the tools configured was, was huge. Right. Took us days just to get that. And then the learning curve for development teams, right? Oh, now you gotta, you got the tools now you gotta figure out how to use it. Right. Um, so >>See, talk to me about the, the cloud native infrastructure. When I look at that entire landscaping number, I'm just overwhelmed by it. As a customer, I look at it, I'm like, I, I don't know where to start I'm sure. Or not, you, you folks looked at it and said, wow, there's so many solutions. How do you engage with the ecosystem? You have to be at some level opinionated, but flexible enough to, uh, meet every customer's needs. How, how do you approach that? >>Yeah. So it's a, it's a really tough problem to solve because, so, so the thing about abstraction layers, you know, we all know how that plays out, right? So abstraction layers are fundamentally never the right answer because they will never catch up. Right. Because you're trying to write and layer on top. So then we had to solve the problem, which was, well, we can't be an abstraction layer, but then at the same time, we need to provide some sort of, sort of like centralization standardization. Right. So, so we sort of have this, the following dissonance in our platform, which is actually really important to solve the problem. So we think of a, of a stack as sort of four things. There's the, there's the Kubernetes layer infrastructure layer, um, and EKS is different from ES and it's okay. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, if we try to now bring them all together and make them behave as one, our customers are gonna suffer because there are features in ESS that I really want. >>But then if you write an AB obsession layer, I'm not gonna get 'em so not. Okay. So treat them as individual things. And we logic that we now curate. So every time S for example, goes from 1 22 to 1 23, rewrite a new product, just so my customer can press a button and upgrade these clusters. Similarly, we do this fors, we do this for GK. We it's a really, really hard job, but that's the job. We gotta do it on top of that, you have these things called. Add-ons like my network policy, my access management policy, my et cetera. Right. These things are all actually the same. So whether I'm Anek or a Ks, I want the same access for Keith versus a none. Right. So then those components are sort of the same across doesn't matter how many clusters does money clouds on top of that? You have applications. And when it comes to the developer, in fact, I do the following demo a lot of times because people ask the question, right? Mean, I, I, I, people say things like, I wanna run the same Kubernetes distribution everywhere, because this is like Linux, actually, it's not. So I, I do a demo where I spin up a access to an OpenShift cluster and an EKS cluster and an AKs cluster. And I say, log in, show me which one is, which they're all the same. >>So Anan get, put, make that real for me, I'm sure after this amount of time, developers groups have come to you with things that are snowflakes and you, and as a enterprise architect, you have to make it work within your framework. How has working with RAI made that possible? >>Yeah. So, um, you know, I think one of the very common concerns is right. The whole deployment, right. Uh, toe's point, right. Is you are from an, from a deployment perspective. Uh, it's still using helm. It's still using some of the same tooling, um, right. But, um, how do you Rafa gives us, uh, some tools, you know, they have a, a command line, art cuddle API that essentially we use. Um, we wanted parody, um, across all our different environments, different clusters, you know, it doesn't matter where you're running. Um, so that gives us basically a consistent API for deployment. Um, we've also had, um, challenges, uh, with just some of the tooling in general, that we worked with RA actually to actually extend their, our cuddle API for us, so that we have a better deployment experience for our developers. So, >>Uh Huie how long does this opportunity exist for you? At some point, do the cloud providers figure this out or does the open source community figure out how to do what you've done and, and this opportunity is gone. >>So, so I think back to a platform that I, I think very highly of, which is a highly off, which has been around a long time and continues to live vCenter, I think vCenter is awesome. And it's, it's beautiful. VMware did an incredible job. Uh, what is the job? Its job is to manage VMs, right? But then it's for access. It's also storage. It's also networking and a sex, right? All these things got done because to solve a real problem, you have to think about all the things that come together to solve, help you solve that problem from an operations perspective. Right? My view is that this market needs essentially a vCenter, but for Kubernetes, right. Um, and that is a very broad problem, right. And it's gonna spend, it's not about a cloud, right? I mean, every cloud should build this. I mean, why would they not? It makes sense, Anto success, right. Everybody should have one. But then, you know, the clarity in thinking that the Rafa team seems to have exhibited till date seems to merit an independent company. In my opinion, I think like, I mean, from a technical perspective, this products awesome. Right? I mean, you know, we seem to have, you know, no real competition when it comes to this broad breadth of capabilities, will it last, we'll see, right. I mean, I keep doing Q shows, right? So every year you can ask me that question again. Well, you're >>You make a good point though. I mean, you're up against VMware, you're up against Google. They're both trying to do sort of the same thing you're doing. What's why are you succeeding? >>Maybe it's focus. Maybe it's because of the right experience. I think startups only in hindsight, can one tell why a startup was successful? In all honesty. I, I, I've been in a one or two service in the past. Um, and there's a lot of luck to this. There's a lot of timing to this. I think this timing for a com product like this is perfect. Like three, four years ago, nobody would've cared. Like honestly, nobody would've cared. This is the right time to have a product like this in the market because so many enterprises are now thinking of modernization. And because everybody's doing this, this is like the boots storm problem in HCI. Everybody's doing it. But there's only so many people in the industry who actually understand this problem. So they can't even hire the people. And the CTO said, I gotta go. I don't have the people. I can't fill the, the seats. And then they look for solutions and we are that solution that we're gonna get embedded. And when you have infrastructure software like this embedded in your solution, we're gonna be around with the assuming, obviously we don't score up, right. We're gonna be around with these companies for some time. We're gonna have strong partners for the long term. >>Well, vCenter for Kubernetes, I love to end on that note, intriguing conversation. We could go on forever on this topic, cuz there's a lot of work to do. I think, uh, I don't think this will over be a solve problem for the Kubernetes of cloud native solution. So I think there's a lot of opportunity in that space. Hi, thank you for rejoining the cube. I non con welcome becoming a cube alum. <laugh> I awesome. Thank you. Get your much your profile on the, on the Ken's. Website's really cool from Valencia Spain. I'm Keith Townsend, along with my whole Paul Gillon and you're watching the cube, the leader in high tech coverage.

(upbeat music) >> Welcome back. We're winding down theCUBE's coverage of Red Hat Summit 2022. We're here at the Seaport in Boston. It's been two days of a little different Red Hat Summit. We're used to eight, 9,000 people. It's much smaller event this year, fewer developers or actually in terms of the mix, a lot more suits this year, which is kind of interesting to see that evolution and a big virtual audience. And I love the way, the keynotes we've noticed are a lot tighter. They're pithy, on time, they're not keeping us in the hall for three hours. So we appreciate that kind of catering to the virtual audience. Dave Vellante here with my co-host, Paul Gillin. As to say things are winding down, there was an analyst event here today, that's ended, but luckily we have Jim Mercer here as a research director at IDC. He's going to share maybe some of the learnings from that event today and this event overall, we're going to talk about DevSecOps. And Kirsten Newcomer is director of security, product management and hybrid platforms at Red Hat. Folks, welcome. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Great to see you. >> Great to be here. >> Security's everywhere, right? You and I have spoken about the supply chain hacks, we've done some sort of interesting work around that and reporting around that. I feel like SolarWinds created a new awareness. You see these moments, it's Stuxnet, or WannaCry and now is SolarWinds very insidious, but security, Red Hat, it's everywhere in your portfolio. Maybe talk about the strategy. >> Sure, absolutely. We feel strongly that it's really important that security be something that is managed in a holistic way present throughout the application stack, starting with the operating system and also throughout the life cycle, which is partly where DevSecOps comes in. So Red Hat has kind of had a long history here, right? Think SELinux and Red Hat Enterprise Linux for mandatory access control. That's been a key component of securing containers in a Kubernetes environment. SELinux has demonstrated the ability to prevent or mitigate container escapes to the file system. And we just have continued to work up the stack as we go, our acquisition of stack rocks a little over a year ago, now known as Red Hat Advanced Cluster Security, gives us the opportunity to really deliver on that DevSecOps component. So Kubernetes native security solution with the ability to both help shift security left for the developers by integrating in the supply chain, but also providing a SecOps perspective for the operations and the security team and feeding information between the two to really try and do that closed infinity loop and then an additional investment more recently in sigstore and some technologies. >> Interesting. >> Yeah, is interesting. >> Go ahead. >> But Shift Left, explain to people what you mean by Shift Left for people might not be familiar with that term. >> Fair enough. For many, many years, right, IT security has been something that's largely been part of an operations environment and not something that developers tended to need to be engaged in with the exception of say source code static analysis tools. We started to see vulnerability management tools get added, but even then they tend to come after the application has been built. And I even ran a few years ago, I ran into a customer who said my security team won't let me get this information early. So Shift Left is all about making sure that there are security gates in the app dev process and information provided to the developer as early as possible. In fact, even in the IDE, Red Hat code ready dependency analytics does that, so that the developers are part of the solution and don't have to wait and get their apps stalled just before it's ready to go into deployment. >> Thank you. You've also been advocating for supply chain security, software supply chain. First of all, explain what a software supply chain is and then, what is unique about the security needs of that environment? >> Sure. And the SolarWinds example, as Dave said, really kind of has raised awareness around this. So just like we use the term supply chain, most people given kind of what's been happening with the pandemic, they've started hearing that term a lot more than they used to, right? So there's a supply chain to get your groceries, to the grocery store, food to the grocery store. There's a supply chain for manufacturing, where do the parts come for the laptops that we're all using, right? And where do they get assembled? Software has a supply chain also, right? So for years and even more so now, developers have been including open source components into the applications they build. So some of the supplies for the applications, the components of those applications, they can come from anywhere in the world. They can come from a wide range of open source projects. Developers are adding their custom code to that. All of this needs to be built together, delivered together and so when we think about a supply chain and the SolarWinds hack, right, there are a couple of elements of supply chain security that are particularly key. The executive order from May of last year, I think was partly in direct response to the SolarWinds hack. And it calls out that we need a software bill of materials. Now again, in manufacturing that's something folks are used to, I actually had the opportunity to contribute to the software package data exchange format, SPDX when it was first started, I've lost track of when that was. But an S-bomb is all about saying, what are all of those components that I'm delivering in my solution? It might be an application layer. It might be the host operating system layer, but at every layer. And if I know what's in what I'm delivering, I have the opportunity to learn more information about those components to track where does Log4Shell, right? When the Log4j or Spring4Shell, which followed shortly thereafter. When those hit, how do I find out which solutions that I'm running have the vulnerable components in them and where are they? The software bill of materials helps with that but you also have to know where, right. And that's the Ops side. I feel like I missed a piece of your question. >> No, it's not a silver bullet though, to your point and Log4j very widely used, but let's bring Jim into the conversation. So Jim, we've been talking about some of these trends, what's your focus area of research? What are you seeing as some of the mega trends in this space? >> I mean, I focus in DevOps and DevSecOps and it's interesting just talking about trends. Kirsten was mentioning the open source and if you look back five, six, seven years ago and you went to any major financial institution, you asked them if they use an open source. Oh, no. >> True. >> We don't use that, right. We wrote it all here. It's all from our developers-- >> Witchcraft. >> Yeah, right, exactly. But the reality is, they probably use a little open source back then but they didn't realize it. >> It's exactly true. >> However, today, not only are they not on versed to open source, they're seeking it out, right. So we have survey data that kind of indicates... A survey that was run kind of in late 2021 that shows that 70% of those who responded said that within the next two years 90% of their applications will be made up of open source. In other words, the content of an application, 10% will be written by themselves and 90% will come from other sources. So we're seeing these more kind of composite applications. Not, everybody's kind of, if you will, at that 90%, but applications are much more composite than they were before. So I'm pulling in pieces, but I'm taking the innovation of the community. So I not only have the innovation of my developers, but I can expand that. I can take the innovation to the community and bring that in and do things much quicker. I can also not have my developers worry about things that, maybe just kind of common stuff that's out there that might have already been written. In other words, just focus on the business logic, don't focus on, how to get orders or how to move widgets and those types of things that everybody does 'cause that's out there in open source. I'll just take that, right. I'll take it, somebody's perfected it, better than I'll ever do. I'll take that in and then I'll just focus and build my business logic on top of that. So open source has been a boom for growth. And I think we've heard a little bit of that (Kirsten laughs) in the last two days-- >> In the Keynotes. >> From Red Hat, right. But talking about the software bill of materials, and then you think about now I taking all that stuff in, I have my first level open source that I took in, it's called it component A. But behind component A is all these transitive dependencies. In other words, open source also uses open source, right? So there's this kind of this, if you will, web or nest, if you want to call it that, of transitive dependencies that need to be understood. And if I have five, six layers deep, I have a vulnerability in another component and I'm over here. Well, guess what? I picked up that vulnerability, right. Even though I didn't explicitly go for that component. So that's where understanding that software bill of materials is really important. I like to explain it as, during the pandemic, we've all experienced, there was all this contact tracing. It was a term where all came to mind. The software bill of materials is like the contact tracing for your open source, right. >> Good analogy. >> Anything that I've come in contact with, just because I came in contact with it, even though I didn't explicitly go looking for COVID, if you will, I got it, right. So in the same regard, that's how I do the contact tracing for my software. >> That 90% figure is really striking. 90% open source use is really striking, considering that it wasn't that long ago that one of the wraps on open source was it's insecure because anybody can see the code, therefore anybody can see the vulnerabilities. What changed? >> I'll say that, what changed is kind of first, the understanding that I can leapfrog and innovate with open source, right? There's more open source content out there. So as organizations had to digitally transform themselves and we've all heard the terminology around, well, hey, with the pandemic, we've leapfrog up five years of digital transformation or something along those lines, right? Open source is part of what helps those teams to do that type of leapfrog and do that type of innovation. You had to develop all of that natively, it just takes too long, or you might not have the talent to do it, right. And to find that talent to do it. So it kind of gives you that benefit. The interesting thing about what you mentioned there was, now we're hearing about all these vulnerabilities, right, in open source, that we need to contend with because the bad guys realize that I'm taking a lot of open source and they're saying, geez, that's a great way to get myself into applications. If I get myself into this one open source component, I'll get into thousands or more applications. So it's a fast path into the supply chain. And that's why it's so important that you understand where your vulnerabilities are in the software-- >> I think the visibility cuts two ways though. So when people say, it's insecure because it's visible. In fact, actually the visibility helps with security. The reality that I can go see the code, that there is a community working on finding and fixing vulnerabilities in that code. Whereas in code that is not open source it's a little bit more security by obscurity, which isn't really security. And there could well be vulnerabilities that a good hacker is going to find, but are not disclosed. So one of the other things we feel strongly about at Red Hat, frankly, is if there is a CVE that affects our code, we disclose that publicly, we have a public CVE database. And it's actually really important to us that we share that, we think we share way more information about issues in our code than most other users or consumers of open source and we work that through the broad community as well. And then also for our enterprise customers, if an issue needs to be fixed, we don't just fix it in the most recent version of the open source. We will backport that fix. And one of the challenges, if you're only addressing the most recent version, that may not be well tested, it might have other bugs, it might have other issues. When we backport a security vulnerability fix, we're able to do that to a stable version, give the customers the benefit of all the testing and use that's gone on while also fixing. >> Kirsten, can you talk about the announcements 'cause everybody's wondering, okay, now what do I do about this? What technology is there to help me? Obviously this framework, you got to follow the right processes, skill sets, all that, not to dismiss that, that's the most important part, but the announcements that you made at Red Hat Summit and how does the StackRox acquisition fit into those? >> Sure. So in particular, if we stick with DevSecOps a minute, but again, I'll do. Again for me, DevSecOps is the full life cycle and many people think of it as just that Shift Left piece. But for me, it's the whole thing. So StackRox ACS has had the ability to integrate into the CI/CD pipeline before we bought them. That continues. They don't just assess for vulnerabilities, but also for application misconfigurations, excess proof requests and helm charts, deployment YAML. So kind of the big, there are two sort of major things in the DevSecOps angle of the announcement or the supply chain angle of the announcement, which is the investment that we've been making in sigstore, signing, getting integrity of the components, the elements you're deploying is important. I have been asked for years about the ability to sign container images. The reality is that the signing technology and Red Hat signs everything we ship and always have, but the signing technology wasn't designed to be used in a CI/CD pipeline and sigstore is explicitly designed for that use case to make it easy for developers, as well as you can back it with full CO, you can back it with an OIDC based signing, keyless signing, throw away the key. Or if you want that enterprise CA, you can have that backing there too. >> And you can establish that as a protocol where you must. >> You can, right. So our pattern-- >> So that would've helped with SolarWinds. >> Absolutely. >> Because they were putting in malware and then taking it out, seeing what happened. My question was, could sigstore help? I always evaluate now everything and I'm not a security expert, but would this have helped with SolarWinds? A lot of times the answer is no. >> It's a combination. So a combination of sigstore integrated with Tekton Chains. So we ship Tekton, which is a Kubernetes supply chain pipeline. As OpenShift pipelines, we added chains to that. Chains allows you to attest every step in your pipeline. And you're doing that attestation by signing those steps so that you can validate that those steps have not changed. And in fact, the folks at SolarWinds are using Tekton Chains. They did a great talk in October at KubeCon North America on the changes they've made to their supply chain. So they're using both Tekton Chains and sigstore as part of their updated pipeline. Our pattern will allow our customers to deploy OpenShift, advanced cluster manager, advanced cluster security and Quay with security gates in place. And that include a pipeline built on Tekton with Tekton Chains there to sign those steps in the pipeline to enable signing of the code that's moving through that pipeline to store that signature in Quay and to validate the image signature upon deployment with advanced cluster security. >> So Jim, your perspective on this, Red Hat's, I mean, you care about security, security's everywhere, but you're not a security company. You follow security companies. There's like far too many of them. CISOs all say my number one challenge is lack of talent, but I have all these tools to deal with. You see new emerging companies that are doing pretty well. And then you see a company that's highly respected, like an Okta screw up the communications on a pretty benign hack. Actually, when you peel the onion on that, it's just this mess (chuckles) and it doesn't seem like it's going to get any simpler. Maybe the answer is companies like Red Hat kind of absorbing that and taking care of it. What do you see there? I mean, maybe it's great for business 'cause you've got so many companies. >> There's a lot of companies and there's certainly a lot of innovation out there and unique ways to make security easier, right. I mean, one of the keys here is to be able to make security easier for developers, right. One of the challenges with adopting DevSecOps is if DevSecOps creates a lot of friction in the process, it's hard to really... I can do it once, but I can't keep doing that and get the same kind of velocity. So I need to take the friction out of the process. And one of the challenges a lot of organizations have, and I've heard this from the development side, but I've also heard it from the InfoSec side, right. Because I take inquiry for people on InfoSec, and they're like, how do I get these developers to do what I want? And part of the challenge they have is like, I got these teams using these tools. I got those teams using those tools. And it's a similar challenge that we saw on DevOps where there's just too many, if you will, too many dang tools, right. So that is a challenge for organizations is, they're trying to kind of normalize the tools. Interestingly, we did a survey, I think around last August or something. And one of the questions was around, where do you want your security? Where do you want to get your DevSecOps security from, do you want to get it from individual vendors? Or do you want to get it from like, your platforms that you're using and deploying changes in Kubernetes. >> Great question. What did they say? >> The majority of them, they're hoping they can get it built into the platform. That's really what they want. And you see a lot of the security vendors are trying to build security platforms. Like we're not just assess tool, we're desk, we're this, whatever. And they're building platforms to kind of be that end-to-end security platform, trying to solve that problem, right, to make it easier to kind of consume the product overall, without a bunch of individual tools along the way. But certainly tool sprawl is definitely a challenge out there. Just one other point around the sigstore stuff which I love. Because that goes back to the supply chain and talking about digital providence, right. Understanding where things... How do I validate that what I gave you is what you thought it was, right. And what I like about it with Tekton Chains is because there's a couple things. Well, first of all, I don't want to just sign things after I built the binary. Well, I mean, I do want to sign it, but I want to just sign things once, right. Because all through the process, I think of it as a manufacturing plant, right. I'm making automobiles. If I check the quality of the automobile at one stage and I don't check it to the other, things have changed, right. How do I know that I did something wasn't compromised, right. So with sigstore kind of tied in with Tekton Chains, kind of gives me that view. And the other aspect I like it about is, this kind of transparency in the log, right-- >> The report component. >> Exactly. So I can see what was going on. So there is some this kind of like public scrutiny, like if something bad happened, you could go back and see what happened there and it wasn't as you were expected. >> As with most discussions on this topic, we could go for an hour because it's really important. And thank you guys for coming on and sharing your perspectives, the data. >> Our pleasure. >> And keep up the good work. Kirsten, it's on you. >> Thanks so much. >> The IDC survey said it, they want it in platforms. You're up. >> (laughs) That's right. >> All right. Good luck to both you. >> Thank you both so much. >> All right. And thank you for watching. We're back to wrap right after this short break. This is Dave Vellante for Paul Gill. You're watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> We're back at the Seaport in Boston. Dave Vellante and Paul Gill. You're watching The Cubes coverage of Red Hat Summit, 2022. A little different this year, a smaller venue. Maybe a thousand people. Love the keynotes, compressed. Big virtual audience. So we're happy to be coming to you live, face to face. It's been a while since we've had these, for a lot of folks, this is their first in person event. You know, it's kind of weird getting used to that, but I think in the next few months, it's going to become the new, sort of quasi abnormal. Francis Chow is here. He's the Vice President and GM of In-Vehicle OS and Edge at Red Hat. Francis, welcome. That's the most interesting title we've had all week. So thanks for coming here. >> Thank you, Dave. Thank you, Paul, for having me here. >> So The Edge, I mean The Edge is, we heard about the International Space Station. We heard about ski boots, of course In-Vehicle. What's the Edge to you? >> Well, to me Edge actually could mean many different things, right? The way we look at Edge is, there is the traditional enterprise Edge, where this is the second tier, third tier data centers that this extension from your core, the network and your centralized data center, right to remote locations. And then there are like Telco Edge, right? where we know about the 5G network, right Where you deploy bay stations and which would have a different size of requirements right. Of traditional enterprise edge networks. And then there are Operational Edge where we see the line of business operating on those locations, right? Things like manufacturing for oil rigs, retail store, right? So very wide variety of Edge that are doing OT type of technology, and then last but not least there is the customer on or kind of device edge where we now putting things into things like cars, as you said, like ski booth, and have that interaction with the end consumers. >> Is this why? I mean, there's a lot of excitement at Red. I could tell among the Red hat people about this GM deal here is this why that's so exciting to them? This really encompasses sort of all of those variants of the edge in automotive, in automobile experience. Doesn't it? >> I think why this is exciting to the industry and also to us is that if you look at traditionally how automotive has designed, right the way the architect vehicle today has many subsystems, they are all purpose viewed, very tight cut, coupled with hardware and software. And it's very difficult to reuse, right? So their cause of development is high. The time to develop is long and adding to that there is a lengthy safety certification process which also kind of make it hard. Because every time you make a change in the system you have to re-certify it again. >> Right. >> And typically it takes about six to 12 months to do so. Every time you make a change. So very lengthy passes, which is important because we want to ensure occupants are safe in a vehicle. Now what we bring to the table, which I think is super exciting is we bring this platform approach. Now you can use a consistent platform that is open and you can actually now run multiple doming applications on the same platform which means automakers can reuse components across model years and brands. That will lower the development cost. Now I think one of the key things that we bring to the table is that we introduce a new safety certification approach called Continuous Safety Certification. We actually announced that in our summit last year with the intent, "Hey, we're going to deliver this functional certified Linux platform" Which is the first four Linux. And the way we do it is we work with our partner Excedr to try to define that approach. And at the high level the idea really is to automate that certification process just like how we automate software development. Right, we are adding that monitoring capabilities with functional safety related artifacts in our CI three pipeline. And we are able to aim to cut back that kind of certification time to a fraction of what is needed today. So what we can do, I think with this collaboration with GM, is help them get faster time to market, and then lower development costs. Now, adding to that, if you think about a modern Linux platform, you can update it over the air, right? This is the capability that we are working with GM as well. Now what customers can expect now, right for future vehicle is there will be updates on apps and services, just like your cell phone, right. Which makes your car more capable over time and more relevant for the long term. >> So there's some assumptions you're making at the edge. First of all, you described a spectrum retail store which you know, to me, okay, it's Edge, but you can take an X-86 box or a hyper converged infrastructure throw it in there. And there's some opportunities to do some stuff in real time, but it's kind of an extension natural extension of IT. Whereas in vehicle you got to make some assumptions spotty connectivity to do software download and you can't do truck rolls at the far edge, right? None of that is okay, and so there's some assumptions there and as you say, your role is to compress the time to market, but also deliver a better consumer >> Absolutely. >> Experience, so what can we expect? You started to talk about the future of in vehicle, you know, or EVs, if you will, what should we expect as consumers? You, you're saying over the year software we're seeing that with some of the EV makers, for sure. But what's the future look like? >> I think what consumers can expect is really over a period of time, right? A similar experience, like what you have with your mobile mobile device, right? If you look back 15, 20 years, right? You buy a phone, right? That's the feature that you have with your phone, right? No update, it is what it is right, for the lifetime of the product which is pretty much what you have now, if you buy a vehicle, right. You have those features capabilities and you allow it for the lifetime of the vehicle. >> Sometimes you have to drive in for a maintenance, a service to get a software update. >> We can talk about that too right. But as we make the systems, update-able right you can now expect more frequent and seamless update of both the operating system and the application services that sit on top of that. Right, so I think right in the future consumers can expect more capable vehicles after you purchase it because new developmental software can now be done with an update over the air. >> I assume this relationship with GM is not exclusive. Are you talking with other automakers as well? >> We are talking to auto makers, other auto makers. What we working with GM is really a product that could work for the industry, right? This is actually what we both believe in is the right thing to do right? As we are able to standardize how we approach the infrastructure. I think this is a good thing for the whole industry to help accelerate innovation for the entire industry. >> Well which is sort of natural next question. Are we heading toward an open automotive platform? Like we have an open banking platform in that industry. Do you see the possibility that there could be a single platform that all or most of the auto makers will work on? >> I wouldn't use the word single, but I definitely would use the word open. Right? Our goal is to build this open platform, right. Because we believe in open source, right. We believe in community, right. If we make it open, we have more contributors to come in and help to make the system better in a way faster. And actually like you said, right. Improve the quality, right, better. Right, so that the chance of recall is now lower with, with this approach. >> You're using validated patterns as part of this initiative. Is that right? And what is a validated pattern? How is it different from a reference architecture? Is it just kind of a new name for reference architecture? or what value does it bring to the relation? >> For automotive right, we don't have a validated pattern yet but they can broadly kind of speak about what that is. >> Yeah. >> And how we see that evolve over time. So validated pattern basically is a combination of Red Hat products, multiple Red Hat products and partner products. And we usually build it for specific use case. And then we put those components together run rigorous tests to validate it that's it going to work, so that it becomes more repeatable and deployable for those particular edge use cases. Now we do work with our partners to make it happen, right. Because in the end, right we want to make a solution that is about 80% of the way and allow our partners to kind of add more value and their secret sauce on top and deploy it. Right, and I'll give you kind of one example, right You just have the interview with the Veterans Affairs team, right. One of our patents, right? The Medical Diagnosis Pattern, right. Actually we work with them in the early development stage of that. Right, what it does is to help make assessments on pneumonia with chest X rates, right. So it's a fully automated data pipeline. We get the chest x-ray from an object store use AIML to diagnose whether there's new pneumonia. And then I'll put that in a dashboard automated with the validated pattern. >> So you're not using them today, but can we expect that in the future? It sounds like >> Yes absolutely it's in the works, yes. >> It would be a perfect vertical. >> How do you believe your work with GM? I mean, has implications across Red hat? It seems like there are things you're going to be doing with GM that could affect other parts of your own product portfolio. >> Oh, absolutely. I think this actually is, it's a pivotal moment for Red Hat and the automotive industry. And I think broadly speaking for any safety conscious industry, right. As we create this Proof-point right that we can build a Linux system that is optimized for footprint performance, realtime capabilities, and be able to certify it for safety. Right I think all the adjacent industry, right. You think about transportation, healthcare, right. Industry that have tight safety requirements. It's just opened up the aperture for us to adjust those markets in the future. >> So we talked about a lot about the consumerization of IT over the last decade. Many of us feel as though that what's going on at the Edge, the innovations that are going on at the Edge realtime AI inferencing, you know, streaming data ARM, the innovations that ARM and others are performing certainly in video until we heard today, this notion of, you know, no touch, zero touch provisioning that a lot of these innovations are actually going to find their way into the enterprise. Kind of a follow on fault of what you were just talking about. And there's probably some future disruptions coming. You can almost guarantee that, I mean, 15 years or so we get that kind of disruption. How are you thinking about that? >> Well, I think you company, right. Some of the Edge innovation, right. You're going to kind of bring back to enterprise over time. Right but the one thing that you talk about zero touch provisioning right. Is critical right? You think about edge deployments. You're going to have to deal with a very diverse set of environments on how deployments are happen. Right think about like tail code based stations, right. You have somewhere between 75,000 to 100,000 base stations in the US for each provider right. How do you deploy it? Right, if you let's say you push one update or you want the provision system. So what we bring to the table in the latest open shift release is that, hey we make provisioning zero touch right, meaning you can actually do that without any menu intervention. >> Yeah, so I think the Edge is going to raise the bar for the enterprise, I guess is my premise there. >> Absolutely. >> So Francis, thanks so much for coming on The Cube. It's great to see you and congratulations on the collaboration. It's a exciting area for you guys. >> Thank you again, Dave and Paul. >> Our pleasure, all right keep it right there. After this quick break, we'll be back. Paul Gill and Dave Vellante you're watching The Cubes coverage Red Hat Summit 2022 live from the Boston Seaport. Be right back.

>>To the Seaport in Boston, Massachusetts, everybody's buzzing. The Bruins are playing tonight. They tied it up. The Celtics tied it up last night. We're excited. We don't talk about the red Sox. Red Sox are getting struggles, but you know, we have good distractions. Paul goer is here. He's the president and chief executive officer at red hat and also a Boston fan of great to see, of course, you too. >>Nice to see you guys, you know, it's been a, it's been a while. >><laugh> yeah, we saw you, you know, online and virtually for a couple of years there, but, uh, you know, we've been doing red hat summit for a long, long time. Yeah, of course we were talking earlier. It's just much more intimate, kind of a VIP event, a few more suit jackets here. You know, I got my tie on, so I don't get too much grief. I usually get grief when I wear a tie of red hat summit, but it's a different format this year. Compressed keynotes. Your keynote was great. The new normal, sometimes we call it the new abnormal <laugh>, uh, but you know, how do you feel? >>I, I, I, I feel great. First of all, you know, combination today, virtual audience in, in house audience here today. I think we're gonna see a lot of that in the future. I mean, we designed the event around that and I, I think it, I think it played pretty well. Kudos, kudos to our team. You're right. It's, it's, it's a bit more intimate even the way it was set up, but those are the conversations we like having with our customers and our partners, much more partner centric, uh, as well right now, as well. >>You know, we were talking about, you know, hybrid cloud. It was kind of, you know, it was a good marketing term. And, but now it's, it's, it's become the real thing. I've said many times the, the definition of cloud is changing. It's expanding it's no, the cloud is no longer this remote set of services, you know, somewhere up in the cloud, it's on prem connecting to a cloud across clouds, out to the edge and you need capabilities that work everywhere. And that's what red hat did. The market's just swimming toward you. >>Yeah. I mean, you look at it, you know, I was, uh, you know, if you look at it, you know, the clouds are powerful unto themselves, right? The clouds are powerful unto themselves. They're all different. Right? And that that's, I mean, hardware vendors were, were similar, but different, same thing. You need that connective tissue across, across the whole thing. I mean, as I said, in my keynote today, I remember talking to some of our CIOs and customers 10 years ago and they said, we're going 90% of our apps tomorrow to one cloud. And we knew that wasn't practical because of course the clouds are built from Linux. So we knew it was underneath the hood and, and what's happened. It's taken some time, but as they started to get into that, they started to see, well, maybe one cloud's more suited for one application than the other, these apps. You may have to keep on premise, but you know, what really exploded at the, the, the hybrid thing, the edge. Now they're putting things at the edge, the GM announcement tell you, I know you're gonna talk to Francis. Yeah, yeah. Later. I mean, that's, that's a mini data center in, in every cloud, but that's still under the purview of the CIO, you know? So, so, so that's what hybrid's all about is tying all those pieces together, cuz it got more powerful, but it also more complex. >>You mentioned being the connective tissue, but we don't hear as much talk about multi-cloud seems to me, as we used to this conference has been all about hybrid cloud. You don't really talk about multi-cloud. How important is that to the red hat strategy, being that consistent layer? >>It's probably my mistake or our mistake because multi's more prevalent and more important than just hybrid alone. I mean, hybrid hybrid started from on-premise to one part to any one particular cloud. That was the, the first thought of hybrid. But as I said, as, as, as um, some of the cloud providers became so big, um, every, every CIO I talked to, whether they know whether they know it or not most do are in a multi environment for a whole bunch of reasons, right. You know, one cloud provider might be better in a different part of the world. And another one cloud provider might have a better service than another. Some just don't like to be stuck to one it's it's really hybrid multi. We should, we should train ourselves to every time we say hybrid, say multi, because that's really, that's really what it is. It, I think that happened overnight with, with Microsoft, you know, with Microsoft they've, they've, they've really grown over the last few years, so has Amazon for that matter. But Microsoft really coming up is what really made it a, a high, a multi world. >>Microsoft's remarkable what, what they're doing. But I, I, I have a different thinking on this. I, I heard Chuck Whitten last week at, at the Dell conference he used, he said used the phrase a multicloud, uh, by default versus multi-cloud by design. And I thought that was pretty interesting because I've said that multi-cloud is largely multi-vendor, you know? And so hybrid has implications, right? We, we bring and a shesh came up with a new term today. Metacloud I use Supercloud I like Metacloud better because something's happening, Paul. It feels like there's this layer abstraction layer that the underlying complexity is hidden. Think about OpenShift. Yeah. I could buy, I could get OpenShift for free. Yeah. I mean, I could, and I could cobble together and stitch together at 13, 15 dozens of different services and replicate, but I don't, I don't want that complexity. I want you to hide that complexity. I want, I'd rather spend money on your R and D than my engineering. So something's changing. It feels like >>You buy that. I totally buy that. I mean, you know, I, I, I'm gonna try to not make this sound like a marketing thing because it's not, not fair enough. Right. I mean, I'm engineer at heart, you know that, so, >>Okay. >>I really look to what we're trying to do is we're building a hybrid multi cloud. I mean that we, I look at us as a cloud provider spanning the hybrid multi all the way out to the edge world, but we don't have the data centers in the back. Like the cloud providers do in and by that is you're seeing our products being consumed more like cloud services because that's what our customers are demanding. Our, our products now can be bought out of the various marketplaces, et cetera. You're seeing different business models from us. So, uh, you're seeing, uh, committed spend, for example, like the cloud providers where a customer will buy so much up front and sort of just work it down. You're seeing different models on how they're consumed, consumption, based pricing. These, these are all things that came from the cloud providers and customers buying like that. >>They now want that across their entire environment. They don't wanna buy differently on premise or in one cloud and they don't wanna develop differently. They don't wanna operate differently. They don't wanna have to secure it differently. Security's the biggest thing with, with our, with our customers, because hybrid's powerful, but you no longer have the, you know, your security per perimeter, no longer the walls of your data center. You know, you're, you're responsible as a CIO. You're responsible for every app. Yeah. No matter where it's running, if that's the break in point, you're responsible for that. So that's why we've done things like, you know, we cried stack rocks. We've, we've built it into the container Kubernetes platform that spans those various footprints because you no longer can just do perimeter security because the perimeter is, is very, very, very large right now >>Diffuse. One of the thing on the multi-cloud hyper skills, I, I, red hat's never been defensive about public cloud. You, I think you look at the a hundred billion dollars a year in CapEx spend that's a gift to the industry. Not only the entire it industry, but, but the financial services companies and healthcare companies, they can build their own hybrid clouds. Metacloud super clouds taking advantage of that, but they still need that connective tissue. And that's where >>We products come in. We welcome our customers to go to, to the public cloud. Um, uh, look, it's it's. I said a long time ago, we said a long time it was gonna be a hybrid. Well, I should have said multi anybody said hybrid, then it's gonna be a hybrid world. It is. And it doesn't matter if it's a 20, 80, 80, 20, 40, 60, 60, 40. It's not gonna be a hundred percent anywhere. Yeah. And, and so in that, in that definition, it's a hybrid multi world. >>I wanna change the tune a little bit because I've been covering IBM for 40 years and seen a lot of acquisitions and see how they work. And usually it follows the same path. There's a commitment to leaving the acquire company alone. And then over time that fades, the company just becomes absorbed. Same thing with red hat. It seems like they're very much committed to, to, to leaving you alone. At least they said that upon the acquisition, have they followed through on that promise? >>I have to tell you IBM has followed through on every commitment they've made, made to us. I mean, I, I owe it, I owe a lot of it to Arvin. Um, he was the architect of the deal, right. Um, we've known each other for a long time. Um, he's a great guy. Um, he, uh, he, he believes in it. It's not, he's not just doing it that way because he thinks, um, something bad will happen if he doesn't, he's doing it that way. Cuz he believes in that our ecosystem is what made us. I mean, I mean, even here it's about the partners in the ecosystem. If you look at what made REL people think what made red hat as a company was support, right. Support's really important. Small piece of the value proposition life cycle supports certainly their life cycle a 10 year life cycle just came out of a, a, a customer conference asking about the life cycle and could we extend it to 15 years? You know? Um, the ecosystem is probably the most important part of, of, of, of the, of the overall value proposition. And Arvin knows in IBM knows that, you know, we have to be neutral to be able to do everything the same for all of our ecosystem partners. Some that are IBM's competitors, even. So, >>So we were noticing this morning, I mean, aside from a brief mention of power PC and the IBM logo during, at one point, there was no mention of IBM during the keynote sessions this morning. Is that intentional? Or is that just >>No, no, it it's, it's not intentional. I mean, I think that's part of, we have our strategy to drive and we're, we're driving our, our strategy. We, we, we IBM great partner. We look at them as a partner just as we do our, our many other partners and we won't, you know, we wouldn't, we wouldn't do something with our products, um, for I with IBM that we wouldn't offer to our, our entire ecosystem. >>But there is a difference now, right? I don't know these numbers. Exactly. You would know though, but, but pre 2019 acquisition red hat was just, I think north of 3 billion in revenue growing at maybe 12% a year. Something like that, AR I mean, we hear on the earnings calls, 21% growth. I think he's publicly said you're north of 5 billion or now I don't know how much of that consulting gets thrown in. IBM likes to, you know, IBM math, but still it's a much bigger business. And, and I wonder if you could share with us, obviously you can't dig into the numbers, but have you hired more people? I would imagine. I mean, sure. Like what's been different from that standpoint in terms of the accelerant to your >>Business. Yeah. We've been on the same hiring cycle percentage wise as, as we, we always were. I mean, I think the best way to characterize the relationship and where they've helped is, um, Arvin, Arvin will say, IBM can be opinionated on red hat, but not the other way around <laugh>. So, so what that, what that means is they had a lot of, they had, they had a container based Linux platform. Yeah, right, right. They, they had all their, they were their way of moving to the cloud was that when we came in, they actually stopped that. And they standardized on OpenShift across all of their products. We're now the vehicle that brings the blue software products to the hybrid cloud. We are that vehicle that does it. So I think that's, that's how, that's how they, they look about it. I mean, I know, I mean in IBM consulting, I know, I know they have a great relationship with Microsoft of course. >>Right. And so, so that's, that's how to really look at it. They they're opinionated on us where we not the other way around, but that, but they're a great partner. And even if we're at two separate companies, we'd do be doing all the same things we're doing with them. Now, what they do do for us can do for us is they open a lot of doors in many cases. I mean, IBM's been around for over a hundred years. So in many cases, they're in, in, in the C-suite, we, we may be in the C suite, but we may be one layer down, one, two layers down or something. They, they can, they help us get access. And I think that's been a, a part of the growth as well as is them talking into their, into, into their >>Constituents. Their consulting's one of the FA if not the fastest growing part of their business. So that's kind of the tip of the spear for application modernization, but enough on IBM you said something in your keynote. That was really interesting to me. You said, you, you, you didn't use the word hardware Renaissance, but that my interpretation was you're expecting the next, you know, several years to be a hardware Renaissance. We, we certainly have done relationships with arm. You mentioned Nvidia and Intel. Of course, you've had relationships with Intel for a long time. And we're seeing just the spate of new hardware developments, you know, does hardware matter? I'll ask you, >>Oh, oh, I mean the edge, as I said, you're gonna see hardware innovation out in the edge, software innovation as well. You know, the interesting part about the edge is that, you know, obviously remade red hat. What we did with REL was we did a lot of engineering work to make every hardware architecture when, when it was, when, when the world was just standalone servers, we made every hardware architecture just work out of the box. Right? And we did that in such, because with an open source development model. So embedded in our psyche, in our development processes is working upstream, bringing it downstream 10 years, support all of that kind of thing. So we lit up all that hardware. Now we go out to the edge, it's a whole new, different set of hardware innovation out at the edge. We know how to do that. >>We know how to, we know how to make hardware, innovation safe for the customer. And so we're bringing full circle and you have containers embedded in, in Linux and REL right now as well. So we're actually with the edge, bringing it all full circle back to what we've been doing for 20 plus years. Um, on, on the hardware side, even as a big part of the world, goes to containers and hybrid in, in multi-cloud. So that's why we're so excited about, about, about the edge, you know, opportunity here. That's, that's a big part of where hybrid's going. >>And when you guys talk about edge, I mean, I, I know a lot of companies will talk about edge in the context of your retail location. Okay. That's fine. That's cool. That's edge or telco that that's edge. But when you talk about, um, an in vehicle operating system, right. You know, that's to me the far edge, and that's where it gets really interesting, massive volumes, different architectures, both hardware and software. And a lot of the data may stay. Maybe it doesn't even get persisted. May maybe some comes back to the club, but that's a new >>Ballgame. Well, think about it, right? I mean, you, if you listen, I think you, right. My talk this morning, how many changes are made in the Linux kernel? Right? You're running in a car now, right? From a safety perspective. You wanna update that? I mean, look, Francis talked about it. You'll talk to Francis later as well. I mean, you know, how many, how many in, in your iPhone world Francis talked about this this morning, you know, they can, they can bring you a whole new world with software updates, the same in the car, but you have to do it in such a way that you still stay with the safety protocols. You're able to back things out, things like that. So it's open source, but getting raw upstream, open source and managing itself yourself, I just, I'm sorry. It takes a lot of experience to be able to be able to do those kinds of things. So it's secure, that's insecure. And that's what that's, what's exciting about it. You look at E the telco world look where the telco world came from in the telco world. It was a hardware stack from the hardware firmware operating system, every service, whether it was 9 1, 1 or 4, 1, 1 was its own stack. Yep. In the 4g, 3g, >>4g >>Virtualized. Now, now it's all software. Yeah. Now it's all software all the way out to the cell tower. So now, so, so now you see vendors out there, right? As an application, as a container based application, running out, running in the base of a cell tower, >>Cell tower is gonna be a little mini data >>Center. Yeah, exactly. Because we're in our time here asking quickly, because you've been at red hat a long time. You, you, you, uh, architected a lot of the reason they're successful is, is your responsibility. A lot of companies have tried to duplicate the red hat model, the, the service and support model. Nobody has succeeded. Do you think anybody ever will or will red hat continue to be a unicorn in that respect? >>No, I, I, I think, I think it will. I think open source is making it into all different parts of technology. Now I have to tell you the, the reason why we were able to do it is we stayed. We stayed true to our roots. We made a decision a long time ago that we weren't gonna put a line, say everything below the line was open and above the line was closed. Sometimes it's hard sometimes to get a differentiation with the competition, it can be hard, but we've stayed true to that. And I, to this day, I think that's the thing that's made us is never a confusion on if it's open or not. So that forces us to build our business models around that as well. But >>Do you have a differentiated strategy? Talk about that. What's your what's your differentiation >>Are, are, well, I mean, with the cloud, a differentiation is that common cloud platform across I differentiate strategy from an open source perspective is to, to sort make open source consumable. And, and it's even more important now because as Linux Linux is the base of everything, there's not enough skills out there. So even, even a container platform like open source op like OpenShift, could you build your own? Certainly. Could you keep it updated? Could you keep it updated without breaking all the applications on top? Do you have an ecosystem around it? It's all of those things. It was, it was the support, the, the, the hardening the 10 year to predictability the ecosystem. That was, that was, that is the secret. I mean, we even put the secret out as open. >>Yeah, <laugh> right. Free, like a puppy, as they say. All right, Paul, thanks so much for coming back in the cubes. Great to see you face to face. Nice to see you guys get it. All right. Keep it right there. Dave Valante for Paul Gill, you're watching the cubes coverage of red hat summit, 2022 from Boston. Be right back.

>>live from Boston, Massachusetts. It's the Q covering I. F s World Conference 2019. Brought to you by I. F. S. >>We're back at the Hynes Convention Center in Boston. This is a cube, the leader in live tech coverage. And this is our coverage of I f s World 2019 Matt Smith. This year. He's a global chief architect. Paul Dylan and I are happy to have you on Matt. Great >>pleasure to be here. Thanks very much. >>Filing. You're welcome. So business value engineering is a concept that you're a fan of on one that you've sort of promoted and evolved. What is business value? Engineering. >>So business value engineering is quite a common term in the industry, but here I affects it's a little different. Fundamentally, it's, ah, collaborative process that we use working with our customers on our partners to make sure that what we do with those customers delivers financial value to their business. So it's fundamentally about making sure what we deliver delivers value. >>So I wanna ask you a question about this because your philosophy is a company seems to be the Let the customer define value. Um, it's in their terms, not your terms, not trying to impose a value equation on them. At the same time, it's nice to be able to compare across companies or industries and firm level on DSO forth. So how do you reconcile that? Is it like balanced Scorecard is sort of pay you can tailor to yourself versus some kind of rigid methodology. How do you How do those two worlds meet in >>TV? Yes, so obviously, benchmarking across industry is really important. And there are lots of people that do that kind of work, and that's part of business value engineering. Fundamentally, it's about mutual collaboration. So it's not just about using the customers framework or that all their language is about agreeing the language. One of the challenges when you're trying to build a business relationship with with one or more parties is you have to have a common shared understanding, a common vision on a common value system so that when I say something to you, it means the same thing when you say it to me. And so part of that collaborative process requires that you worked together on business value, engineering facilitates that it's not just about producing a business case. It's really more about the process and steps that you go through to get to that business case that allows you to establish trust and understanding and clarity. >>How does this enter into the customer discussion? >>And so it enters as early as you can possibly make it. Answer rights? A. Right at the beginning, you asked the very first question, which is fundamentally, what are the business initiatives that you're trying to achieve with this potential change program? And then you have a deep discussion about what they mean. So you understand and they understand, and everybody really agrees firmly what we're trying to achieve before you get anywhere near solution. And it's really difficult as technical people. I've got a technical background to stop yourself from hearing a problem and going. I've got a solution for that on it puts that a more disciplined approach to make sure that you don't straight away go to solution to help. You really understand where you're going, how you're gonna get there and therefore what the financial benefits and metrics would be to do it. Who >>were >>the ideal stakeholders when you're doing a collaboration like this in terms of getting them involved in getting their >>implements. So you might expect the answer to be C level executives on Dove course. They're important from, ah, leadership in a direction perspective. But as it turns out from a human psychological behavior perspective, there are three personality types that are really, really suitable for this kind of engagement work that's focused around change. And if you find those three personality types and quite well understood types of people, they're the ones that tend to cause change. To happen more successfully doesn't mean there any more valuable than anybody else inside an organization, but the other right kinds of people to establish this sort of work with, and it's important you have the right number of those people in a change program. >>So change agents. So I would think like a PL manager here. She's controlling a big portion of the budget. Has thousands of people working for them would be important. Maybe not a sea level executive, but a line of business executive, the son of the field General. Could that be an example of a change agent? Not necessarily because they're trying to protect their turf, >>so not necessarily right When it comes to change, change is always hard in any company you've ever been in in all of our careers. Change is difficult, right? >>Wake up in the morning. >>Let's change. It s it's more about who were the people that lay the groundwork for that change that you follow. You listen to the influences. Now, of course, you'll have people that own the budget the financial controllers on Absolutely. They're important. Of course they are. But they may not be the personality type that causes change to happen. Business value engineering is about making sure you harness the right talent, the right skills, the right people at the right time. Thio help organizations realize the benefit off change. >>If you'll excuse me, this is not seem like a typical role for a software company to take on. Yeah, change management. What? How do you Why do you put yourself in that role? >>I think this is something that all software companies are gonna have to do. And you will see the subject of business value engineering in many software vendors. Now it's true. It's a fine line between being a business analyst and being a software vendor. they were a software provider. I think software providers that don't deliver the context on the value that they are trying to achieve with software they buy in the customers are poorer supplies because they're just trying to push technology on its fun. Technologists like myself enjoy the technology, and I'd buy technology all day long. But is it really the right thing to do? So I think it's about being morally right. You have to take the high ground and conduct that engagement in a way which in some cases, and this has certainly been true in my career, you do the business value work and you realize that you probably shouldn't do the project on. You have to have that that fortitude to say to the customer. This is actually not a great idea because the financial case doesn't support this. I think it is. Taking that moral high ground is a really important stance and software companies that do that generally those customers will come back to you in a future dark time when they've got a different problem. That perhaps does fit you. So I think it's about recognizing there's a both a short medium and a long term engagement with with with the customers that you have to maintain that >>in 2019. Given all the discussion on data digital transformation A. I cloud, I would think that data plays a crucial role in these discussions. So what role does data played? Companies understand the importance of data as it relates to the business value discussion. >>Absolutely. I think I think that data driven decision making is is pretty fundamental. A lot of people say the numbers don't lie. Maybe some statistics might be bent, but numbers don't really like, so you've got to be a capture numbers and make decisions based on those numbers. Eso One of the difficulties, though, is that for many, many years in many industries, we've been using very simple terminology and simple mathematical calculations to do these value calculations. Everybody's aware of Years ago, the software industry was awash with phrases like return on investment calculators, >>R o i N P V I R R. Even >>some of those numbers of valid right for >>a business case for sure, >>for sure, but just sticking with simple things like are always is not enough >>salad. If you treat the software as an asset. A zey expense? Essentially, >>Yeah, yeah, absolutely. But then it comes to the engagement's more than your software I like. I like Thio, I think, as a human being, the software is considerably less than half the game in any change program where you're trying to achieve value and the people they're human beings they're going to do with work are the ones that are going to generate the value. The software's a tool, and the years are very important tool. But it's a tool. So you have to think about how do you build teams that can collaborate around value, achieve the value, measure the value, capture that data but at the same time physically collaborate properly to do the work? >>So how have you apply this methodology for your customers? >>So we've done a number of things, so we've established practice inside. If s, we've made sure that every country has the capability to do business value engineering. We've hired some specialists, people who do this for a living. Andi, we are working with lots and lots of customers now on this as a Maur methodical disciplines approach. But we've also recognized that we needed to measure our existing customers benefits. So what you are existing customer base achieved with our software. So we commissioned Ah, pretty big and important study. And that was anonymous. We weren't involved other than inviting the company to go and do this work on, then unleashing them on our customer base for six months across all industries, all products on asking them to go and find out and measure what our customers really achieve with the software. >>So how was that anonymous? How it was in that you weren't doing the survey. >>We weren't doing the survey and any, um, numbers that came back. Where were anonymous? Dhe. So we couldn't say. Oh, it was this company that gave this feedback with these numbers. So it gave them a sense of freedom to be other express and share that data. >>And so you were specifically asking about the business impact of of I f s software throughout some kind of life cycle, like a before and an after? Yes, Exactly. Isn't it to be or what happened? Okay, so what'd you find >>so as a couple of surprises in the results, actually eso firstly >>tell us who did the study or is that >>yes, So the study. That's a good question, because the the choices are many. There are lots of analyst firms out there that you could use A ll do this sort of work and do it very well. The team that I worked with, we would personally had a previous relationship with I. D. C. Now we really liked I. D. C. And I've done some of this work previously with I D. C. Because they arm or they're an analyst. That has more statisticians as well as analysts. So they take a really very methodical mathematical approach. A scientist. I very much appreciated that. So we we picked them to do this work, and they take it really very, very seriously. And there were a lot of strict processes they have for how we are allowed to engage with them and talk to them during this process. On that rigor, I think, allows us to be comfortable with the numbers and for our customers to be comfortable with the numbers that they obtain because of this anonymity and the rigor they put behind. That's why we picked I. D. C. That work in terms of what we found out where they found on we now just see the report on our customers can go and see this report. We published it last week. So you're just gonna free download and look at the material from I. D. C. The first thing that was interesting about the study. It was human productivity focused. So not things like, how much inventory you hold in supply chain on. Was it reduced? It was more about how did the workers get on? What kind of mistakes did I made? L. A. Faster doing their work and more successful. And they looked at lots of different categories on the returns. The improvements ranged from just a 10% improvement. So not not a huge improvement all the way up to a 94% improvement in productivity. Human productivity. If you averaged it all out, it worked out just shy of of 19% 18 and a bit percent productivity improvement across all of the different teams from the finance function, the supply chain function, human resource functions, sales team, productivity function. So we saw a range. What was good was it pretty much didn't matter. Which category of customer or size of customer or industry. They all saw pretty similar productivity improvements, which means we can extrapolate the numbers. The second thing we saw, which was a surprise, a very pleasant surprise was that usually when you see these kinds of benefits studies, most of the value is in cost. Saving on only cost saving tends to be where asset management resource planning service management happens. Just under half of the value that the I. D. C study showed was net new revenue. The customers were finding that nearly half of the benefit was new money coming to the company. Top Line benefit. That's a little unusual. >>So let me pick. Probe Adept so productivity When I when you're saying productivity, I think revenue per employee has a simple list measure of productivity. But then you're saying there was incremental revenue, a swell independent. It first of all is is revenue per employee the right measure? Or was it more like Do we think's faster or sort of more generic measurements and specific to a task? Or was it kind of boil down to a revenue per employee? And and then how did that relate to the the incremental revenue. >>Yeah, so it was done by function by by team type. So if you look to finance and auditing and human resources and supply chain and so on so that the metrics on the you'll see in the white paper are specific to the team's specifically that role specific to that, >>right, You're not really big in insurance, but a claims adjuster could, you know, get more claims done exactly, or something like >>exactly example. So you'd find, for example, one of the statistics was around filled service engineering on how many jobs per day they couldn't do. It was reasonably specific, >>and they would attribute that directly to your software Direct. Now, as a result of installing I f s, how much would you increase your etcetera per day? >>That's why it took them six months to do the study. I mean, this is quite an in depth piece on >>how many customers that the interview. >>And so it was a cross on dhe. We gave them a challenge to do this. So it was a set of about 17 fairly large customers, which sounds like a small time. >>No, no, no, >>no. But when you do these kinds of studies, >>that's a totally legitimate number. And then thes air in depth surveys. Yeah, so it's not like it's not trivial. And and as well, revenue increases specific, too. The software. So that would have been what, like cohorts sales or service, you know, follow on sales things of that nature. >>Absolutely. And that's why we were so delighted with the report when it came back, because it was it was a really nice pleasant finding. So most companies that all the companies reported the revenue increase, but some are bigger than others. On average, it was a pretty sizable chunk, nearly half of all of the benefit. Um, and when we asked, I D C well, can you give us some kind of glimpse as to why we see such a large chunk of improved revenue? I. D. C. Said, Well, you're improving the productivity of the sales teams so they can quote faster. There's more accuracy and those quotes. The service quality is improved the speed and to get a product to market is faster, so their ability to respond to bids and tenders is better. So is actually a combination of lots of things speed error quality improvements that led to their ability to bid and win faster and better business net revenue. >>Did you attempt Thio factor in less tangible factors, such as customer satisfaction, that promoter score perceived value, customer perceived value. >>So the folk note that the focus of the study was human productivity on. And it's something that I d. C do particularly well on that that's what we gave them a target. Obviously, when we doing business value engineering, you then have to take way more than just that. Things like the benchmark dated find from a study like I. D. C. Have conducted where you take into account those soft factors on other factors outside of human productivity. So value engineering is way more than just human productivity, which is why it's an engagement model. It's something you have to do mutually together. That kind of transparency, really, is what most customers are now demanding. You know, I'm not buying technology unless I know what business outcome I'm going to obtain from this. It's just the way of the world these days. >>It could take away that so it's not just your software's not just operational impact in nature. It's more strategic. It has productivity impact, revenue impacts and obviously cost savings as well. Congratulations. That's good. How did we get this study >>out of people? You said customers can download it. Can anybody down? >>Anybody can download this U S So we've published it on our website. It's very easy to find on it. Sze freely available. We obviously have to comply with the I. D. C's. They owned the rights for the report because it was their material, but we've oversee purchased the rights to the other, distribute that material. We think it's super valuable for our customers. >>What a business model >>and super well, you know, And and if I was to write business case for it, I'd be delighted with the work that was done and I'd be happy with the outcome on. I'm sure our customers will make use of the information to be a benchmark, their own work and also hold my effects on our partners to account to help build business cases. >>Well, I you know, I know it's anonymous ized anonymous to protect the customer, but I bet you some of the customers would be willing to go public with some of this information. So hit him up. Bring him on the cube, you know, well distributed for free. If you want to charge for them. Reprint rights. Great to have you on. Thank >>you. Thank you. >>All right. Thank you for watching Paul Gill and I will be back with our next guest to wrap up I f s World 2019. You're watching the Cube from Boston?

>>live from Boston, Massachusetts. It's the Q covering I. F s World Conference 2019. Brought to you by I. F. S. >>Welcome back to Boston, everybody. You're watching The Cube. The leader in live tech coverage is Day one coverage of the I. F s World Conference. Darren Russo's here is the CEO of F S Darren. Thanks for coming back in the Cube. Great TV again. So last year was your first year. He was kind of laid out your vision at the World Conference. How's progress? >>Yeah, Look, it's going incredibly well. We were really focused on how we go from being a pretty fragment of global business to being, you know, an integrated business where we were able to operate. You know, its scale globally in a very homogenous way, where the customer experience was the same, irrespective where they engaged with us. And, you know, we've made a tremendous amount of progress with it, So you know, the business is growing really strongly. Net revenues up 22% year on year. I lost its revenues up 40% year on year are clouds up in the triple digits, so you know it's tough to be critical of how it's going so far. >>That's great, Great. You're growing faster than your peers. I think the stat was you gave us three Ex factory except in the industry would be awesome. Is that means that your primary benchmark do you want? You want to gain share? You want to go faster than the big whales, I presume. I >>think two things One is customer satisfaction, we believe, is the key indicator of long term success. S O. You know, we're the number one ranked European efforts. Salmon gotten appearance sites. That's that is and always will be my number. One metric. Can we be way the number one from a customer satisfaction perspective? And then I believe the revenue stats will follow and you know that's where we are. So certainly, if you look at our our core peers, the big G R P vendors, all of them are flat on. Dhe were growing 20 ships since >>one of the things you mentioned in your Cube interview last year was one of the things that you wanted to focus on was I'll call regional alignment. Paul and I used to work for I D. G. I worked for I. D. C. You were editor in chief of Computer World. We work for a company, had more offices overseas and IBM, and it was really hard to herd the cats. And that was one of the things that you cited. Have you been able to get people generally poor or at the same time? And how has that affected your business? Yeah. Look, I >>think the big challenge before I arrived was that there wasn't really a strategy of global strategy for the business. My face had a way of working and there was a strong culture, but there wasn't really a strategy. And obviously it's difficult to be critical of people when they not following the strategy when there isn't one s o. You know, Step one was really making sure that we had a strategy on DDE that was really about being focused on the five industries that we focused on, focused on three solutions on dhe focused on the six segments of customer, which is half a 1,000,000,000 to 5 billion. So now, globally, you know, irrespective the office that you go to, um anywhere in the world, they're focused on those five industries they focused on those three solutions and they're focused on their customer segments. So it helps me. P. M >>I said during our preview video video this morning that I've been around this industry as long as I f s has, until last year had never even heard of it. Is that just me being clueless? There's something there >>that we were just saying before we started that we're the definitely the biggest software business you've never heard of. Um, and and and that's common, I think, you know, we were There are a couple of factors. One is that the business was very European centric. Andi didn't really engaged in a tremendous amount of marketing and media prison. So, you know, those are elements that, you know, I think we're doing a better job off now, But we have a long way to go. The challenge that we have is that where we compete, we win when we get in and were able to tell our story, and we're able to show the value we win. We just don't get into as many deals as we need to. And that's the challenge we have. >>Yeah, there was a lot of talk this morning about the importance of those five pillars of those five industries. If you're going to become the next S A P, you're gonna have to branch out beyond that. What is your thinking about diversify >>becoming the next? They say he is definitely not my ambition, You know, I think way remain focused on customer satisfaction. And, you know, I think that there's a there's a difference. Whatever it is leading them, it's not customer satisfaction. You worked >>there for four years. >>I worked there for four years. I know. I think the big thing for me is is that we've got to stay focused on their customer voice. They focused on what delivers value for our customers beyond just the rhetoric and hyperbole. You know, I think when you when you listen to a lot of the complexity that our customers are facing today, any customers are facing. Companies are facing increasingly disruptive times, and the tech industry is making life more difficult for them. The more best of breed solutions get both. The more fragments that potential the landscape is, the more complex it becomes for customers if they have to try and figure out. How do we integrate these things and derive value from this highly fragmented landscape? So you know, we're trying to solve that problem. How do we make it easier for customers to challenge in their industry? And that's where this whole for the challenges has check comes from. How do we help him to be disruptive in their industry? Have competitive advantage? >>That seems to be a sort of a fundamentally different thing about your approach, though. Is this focus on those vertical industry's most e r P companies did not do that. Is that something that is core to your values? >>Look, I >>think what we recognize is that as you move to the cloud, you have to drive to standard. That's just the reality of going to the cloud on what's happening for the horizontal E. R B vendors. So the locks of ASAP and Oracle is that they have one e r P solution that fits every industry. So if it's good for health insurance and it's good for a bank, then it's difficult to really get your head around the fact that it could be good for a defense manufacturer, but the functional requirements is simply vastly different on that means that you have to customize them. If you have to customize that, they can go to the cloud. So what we believe is that you have to have this vertical specialization, the five industries that we serve us all. A lot of commonality in the process is that they use. And that's why that vertical strategy is so key to our success. So you won't see us going into financial service is, or health care or retail worth that core application. We may in time in many years to come branch out. That will be a different solutions. >>So your tailor, that app for that module for that industry, Yes, just go deep, deep functionality. You're known for that, but at the same time you're also messaging. You want your customers to be able to tailor this for their environment. So square that circle for me. >>So I think when we talk about a choice and and I think tailoring is the wrong word, we talk about choice. We're talking about choice of deployments on Prem or in the cloud choice of customer choice of partner, rather who they're going to deploy with on Dhe, then The solution is really an industry solution that comes with that functional death. And we don't we don't advocate their customers customized that all. We really don't want them to customize it. What we explain to them in some detail is that the real value comes from adopting the solution for two standard and staying on a vanilla application. Because that vanilla application, you're going to be able to withstand future upgrades, the total cost of ownership gets lower. The processes that are embedded in that application or best of breed at the box. That's what they're intended to do, and that works when you have a vertical application. When you have a horizontal application and you're trying to have a do things that it shouldn't naturally be doing, that becomes company. >>Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't that essentially the message ASAP had when it went through? It's hyper growth in the late nineties. I mean, there was a Y two k thing there, too, but ah, lot of the message was around. Do it our way and and then you don't have to get stuck in a rut, >>So I think that when it came out with that generation of application. That certainly was what they had hoped would happen. But what happened in practice is that the system integrators came in and the whole business process reengineering explosion happened on Dhe. That's not how it how it manifested itself. So what you see is, you see, he's very large, monolithic ASAP applications that were customized over in some cases decades, not not. You know, if a customer is deploying for two standard, then they should be able to deploy in a period mission. In weeks, we spoke about our deployment with Racing Point. If one team and going live in 12 weeks, you know, we're a 700 million global business. We deployed a knife s in 24 weeks. You know, if a customer's deploying for two standard, it's measured in weeks. As soon as they start to talk about two years or three years or five years or seven years there, customizing the solution significantly. Yeah, I >>mean, it became just sort of a perpetual upgrade, maintenance and up for the time it had a business impact. But boy, you think a cloud today agility, you know, getting rid of waterfall approaches, Missus. Antithetical to today's Look >>what I don't point fingers here. I think that this just maturity come with experience. The line of business applications you'll see our EMS and your HR solutions have taught people that you can, if you think about this is look at sea. Are Emma's an example? You had Siebel before people would implement stable. They would customize Siebel that would take long implementations. They were highly bespoke applications and then sells. Force came along and just destroyed them, and they destroyed them. Because what people learned very quickly was that there was a really easy to consume, really easy to use application that functionally might be inferior. But the compromises that you'd make from a functionality perspective will weigh, outweighed by their time to value in ease of use. And and the learnings from CR mnh are in procurement. Those line of business applications have now being backed into in the e. R. P >>world. So in terms of capital allocation, you're owned by private equity, which is actually a public company. I'm interested in how you're allocating capital R and D, where you're where your emphasis is. You don't have to you have to do stock buy back, but, you know, describe the P relationship. >>So look, one of my learning's to see survive this is that not all private equity firms or equal they have different strategies are very fortunate to be with Ekiti, who are a growth investor. They're known as a growth investor on dhe, and they buy companies that are strong growth tech firms on dhe. They've been hugely supportive of us investing because they understand that the investment in technology is important. So, you know, just looking at some detail today we invest twice as much in R and D as we did three years ago, just to give you, you know, one data point. So there's a big focus on technology, and the thing is, is that we we have to invest in technology to drive those attributes that are discussed earlier. How do we How do we enable customers to adopt a solution? It's a standard so they can go alive quicker. How do we enable customers to be able to sit down in the front of the application like we do with the mobile phone and intuitively know how to use it? How do we reduce the total cost of ownership through automation. Those are capabilities that you know that they don't come for free. We have to invest in them. So big investments in technology. And >>I think the private equity guys, at least the modern ones, have realized Why should the V. C's have all the fun they realize? Hey, we can actually put some money in tow and the transforming we can have a bigger exit and actually make much better returns than sucking the company drive. Yeah, well, look, I think the other >>thing is is that you know, in public companies, you have the downside off. You know this this courtly metric Ondas quarterly cadence. Andi, you see very compromising decisions being made because you know, people can't afford to miss 1/4. There's no long term planning that's done on dhe. That's fundamentally not the case and the private equity world, you know, not unusual now for four p firms to hold companies for 5678 years on, and that allows you to take a very long term strategic view. If if if a shift from perpetual to subscription is the right thing to happen, they can do that without worrying that, you know, because of the definite earnings are revenue that you're going to get caned by the market next quarter. Andi. I think that that needs to, I think, better decision making for the long term. >>A lot of companies are struggling. >>If you have the right P for because you get bought by the firm of events, you want to go public. But the the you said something this morning that 50% of your customers each year or net knew, How are you pulling that off >>That 50% of our license revenue? Eso way we went about 300 odd new customers a year. Obviously, that's growing, as I said, you know, 40%. But you know, it's ah, I think, having done this for 25 years, there are companies that are or good at extracting revenue from their installed based. One of the analysts here has as a hashtag wallet Fracking is what do you think It's such a great So you know, they're good at Wallick fracking and and I think the customers that that our customers off those vendors know exactly who they are and you know I think that for us to that the fact that we're able to go out and win 50% of our license revenue from net new name customers, I think is a really strong indicator of the health of the business. It's much harder to do than just extracting revenue out of the install base. You know, we don't have a compliance practice. We've never charged a customer for you in direct access. You know, these are principles that we stand by, and it's easier to say that your customer centric on get 80% of your revenue, have your installed base because you're doing compliance rounds. But, you know, we put our money where our mouth is, and that's not that's not how we do it. >>Are these net new customers? Are they? Are they migrating from QuickBooks or they migrating from a Competitors >>know, because of the segment that we're in this half a 1,000,000,000 to 5 billion? I would say the majority of them are what I would call first generation the Rp solution. So you know you're talking about you know, the original generation of Microsoft's acquisitions, the divisions and the eggs actors and the Solomon's and so on on. And then, you know, it's a P R two and our three customers you're talking about customer sitting on, you know, the solutions that in for hoovered up the matrix B picks type customers, ace 400 customers. So they're you know, they're first generation your P solutions that simply don't have the flexibility to deal with the complexity and demands of modern business world. >>From 2009 about 2017 I f. S was pretty inquisitive and then just actually, I was gonna ask you >>when I started, you stopped >>it, right? But then, you know, today you announced an extra small acquisition, But how should we think about M and a >>look? The first year for me was really about trying to build a functional business. You know, we spoke about how fragmented this really hit to Jenna's business. Andi just occurred to me. You know, if we go out and we start to buy things, how do we integrate them into a business that's completely fragments? And you know, it had no identity or culture. So, you know, the last year has been focused on how do we build their common understanding of what it is that we're doing. We now have a very clear strategy. Five industries, three solutions, one segment. And you know, when you when you have that clarity of vision that it's really easy to guard and do him and I because you know what fits and what doesn't fit, you can understand exactly how you're gonna build value for customers on dhe. That's why the S t a deal is so good for us. Because we're now the undisputed leader in field service management, you know, 8000 our customers globally, which is way more than anybody else. Scott, Andi, you know, you should absolutely expect more from us. But it will be in the five industries, three technology segments and one customers. Isaac. >>Well, in the A p I enablement should obviously facility. >>Absolutely. I mean, I was just with a partner of ours now, and they have this amazing augmented reality solution. You know, it will be a combination of off going out there to build market, share a cz well, as finding you know, really innovative solutions that can help us advance the technology that we provide customers. >>You have a new slogan this year for the challengers, which seems to be aimed at companies that that imagine themselves as challenging the Giants, which is great. But if you're not a company that season sees themselves that way. Are the studies level home with I have s Look, >>I I think I was with a group of CEOs from one of the big analyst rooms, and they had the portfolio companies and their private equity firm and analysts that CEOs of the companies are having a conversation with him about digital transformation. And I I made a rather provocative statement which, you know, got unanimous agreement, which is that all of the CEOs there with either in an industry that was being disrupted and we're trying to figure out how they respond to that disruption or they would soon not every job and they all acknowledge that they absolutely fit into that category. In other words, all of them were being disrupted. All of them were facing a challenge. It was kind of like, you know, if it is happening to all of us at a more rapid pace than we have ever had before. So my view is, is that you know if if you're in the room and you're going, you know, if it's might not be for us because we're not a challenger. Yeah, The lights may not be on >>for Long s o double click on that. What role does I s play in terms of digital transformation? >>If I could just hold on there because the thing is, there are leaders in Mama, there challenges. And there are leaders. The leaders typically are gonna go with seif solution. They're gonna go with one of the legacy our peace. So I'm not suggesting that everybody necessarily is a challenger. There are leaders, you know, Nokia was a leader until they weren't because they were complacent. Andi, I think they you know, they didn't run on I office. So, you know, I think there are two segments. There are leaders and there are challenges, and we're there for the ones that are ready to disrupt. Sorry. >>Please clarify that. No. Good. So So get back to it. Sort of digital transformation and disruption. What do you see? Is the role of AARP generally, but specifically I f s. >>Look, I think we digital information. A lot of discussion about it on the stage this morning. I've just touched on it now. I think that it takes very different forms. What most industries are finding is that they're facing a lot of non traditional competition and they're having to innovate around their business models. They can't going to market in the same way as they did before. They're having to innovate because of this non traditional competition. Andi. Understanding your your customer's understanding, your your staff, understanding your supply chain understanding your financials are all critical parts of being able to respond to whatever their changes, and that's where the RP solution comes into it. I think there's an interesting challenge now, which is that as those applications have become more fragmented and you've got more based debris cloud applications Ah, lot of the value often E. R P was that you had this integrated set of applications that you had this one source of the truth andan. Fortunately for many customers today, they don't have that because they've got import all of these best of breed applications and they don't have one source of the truth that multiple invoices made it multiple versions of their customer in the databases. Andi we still stand for a single integrated the r p. So, you know, I think understanding those elements of your businesses key. I was with a customer of ours in Nebraska a short while ago, and they were talking about our existing office customer. They were talking about the steel import duties that were imposed through the trade war with China. And they were saying, Look, that they had been able to respond to that in a way that they had good visibility of the supply chain, who was improved, imposing the tariffs, how they were going to impact them when they were going to impact them. And because they had this integrated Siara AARP. They were able to pass those pricing changes onto their customers, and they survived this. What could have been a cataclysmic event for their business had they not had an integrated your pee? They not being able to have this visibility into the supply chain and the customer base. They may well have gone out of business just because of that one change >>to meet all day and all comes back to the data, putting their putting data at the core of their business. That integrated data pipeline is essentially what they get out of that last question. So thinking about the next 18 to 24 months, what are the milestones that observers should look for? One of the barometers that we should be watching. >>So look, in the next two years, it's it's really about us building incremental scale. We have, ah, four year plan, which I built when I came in. We're halfway through that plan. We've hit all of the metrics and exceeded most the metrics that we had on their plan. It's really continue to focus on the strategy. As I said, we focus on those five industries, continue to build market share, continue to focus on those three solution types and build market share and market dominance on those three solutions. Andi in that segment that I defined before, so no change from a strategy perspective. I think there's really value in the consistency that we bring on on their talk track and, you know, along the way we passed the $1,000,000,000 mark, which we will do, I think, in 2021 organically if we accelerate, some of the money will pass the 1,000,000,000 before, but you know business. The margins continue to expand. We focus on customer satisfaction and, you know, it's a It's a pretty straight, you know, traditional prey book that we have to execute on now. >>Well, congratulations. It's a great playbook, and you're growing very nicely. So love that. Look, we really an honor to the last couple of years. Learn a little bit about the company in your industry. So appreciate meeting you guys. Thank you. All right. And thank you for watching over right back with our next guest. Ready for this short break day Volonte with Paul Gill in. You're watching the Cube from I f s World Conference from Boston 2019 right back.

>>live from Boston, Massachusetts. It's the Q covering I. F s World Conference 2019. Brought to you by I. F s. >>Welcome back to I f s world Everybody, This is David Dante with Paul Dillon and you're watching the Cube, The leader in live tech coverage. Where here from? From the Heinz Auditorium. Nick Ward is here. He's the head of OM Digital Solutions for Rolls Royce and Scott Helmer, president of the F S aerospace and defense. Gentlemen, welcome to the Cube. Thanks for coming on. Thank you. Scott. I want to start with you. We heard a lot about digital transformation. You guys are in the heart of that. Ah, defense. Aerospace is one of those industries that hasn't been dramatically disrupted. Like publishing. Are you seeing taxis? It's a It's a high risk business. It's one that's highly in trench, but it's not safe from disruption. What are the major trends that you're seeing in your space and paint a picture for us? If you would, >>uh, that's a very good question. You're right. The same level of disruption related digital transformation has not yet common aerospace. Defense is that has come to some of the other league leading industries. But this is a whether it's land based operations, naval operations or aircraft operations. This is an asset intensive industry. It's characterized by a very connected network of organizations. Be the manufacturer's operators, subsystem, part suppliers or just maintainers. They stay connected throughout the asset life cycle in its entirety. I f F f s has a portfolio capability. There's four purpose underpinning the critical business processes of those organizations that enables us to be the digital thread to continue the connection of those organizations throughout that outs of life cycle, if you will, that sees this fall come to come to be at the heart of asset lifecycle Management on provides us with the opportunity to inform information insights for our customers. Like return on experience data on aircraft engines where an old GM like Rolls Royce, for example, can harvest that data to analyze the performance of those assets and ultimately optimized thereafter after service offerings. >>Who are the customers? I mean, there's a limited number of companies that make aircraft engines so you don't have a huge domain been numbers of those kinds of companies. But are the customers channel their partners the supply chain network >>Well, the ecosystem is actually large and extensive. They're very recognizable names, and it's certainly an industry that's characterized by significant growth. On the commercial side. Amaro continue is in the midst of a boom and is likely to continue to grow, are expected to continue to grow for at least another decorate decade. And on the defense side, we see military budgets continue or increasingly moving towards sustainment and serve it ization on a performance basis. So the number of organizations that are participating in that value chain whether they're just the upstream, only am so I should just upstream. But the Austrian Williams participate in the design and development are moving into the aftermarket sustainment and service support parts and subsystem supply, or ultimately, third part repair organizations. It's actually quite an extensive network participating in that asset life cycle. >>So, Nick, you know people here Rolls Royce, they think you know the iconic brand. We're gonna talk about cars, talk about your role at Rolls Royce and what's going on in your business. >>So my role I lead our product management function looking are digitally enabled. Service's so for 20 years we've been running a service we call total care. Total care is like a fixed dollar rate. Every time an aircraft flies, we paid a dollar rate for it. Flying. What's really great about that is we're incentivizing. No, I am exactly the same way that airline isn't said device. Keep the aircraft flying. It owns revenue for the airline. It owns revenue for us on that revolutionized relationship between oh am on operator. So within my role, it's about taking four division we call The Intelligent Engine. Intelligent Engine is recognizing the way that digital is starting to pervade the way we think about service is so we've talked about physical engine, big rotating piece of metal that people see service. Is that wrap around that on the digital brain that sits behind all of those sources? That's what we call the intelligent engine. >>Yes, so people sometimes think the mission critic critical piece of air travel is the reservation system. It's not. It's the thinness of the engines available that was lost in critical system, right? You mean like it? If you don't get your reservation Oh, well, somebody else will get it. Not not the end of the world But for the maintenance piece, that's all right. >>Job. You know, our fundamental mission is every rose was powered. Aircraft flies on time every time. All right, there's no disruption. There's no delay that works for the operator, for the airlines are owner of the aircraft. It works for us. And this is why the confluence of our incentives comes together and it really works well. >>So what role has technology played in terms of evolving that that experience? I mean, I'm sure, you know, years ago, it used to be a lot of tribal knowledge. Gut feel. Joe the mechanic really knew his stuff. Etcetera, etcetera, Powers. Technology evolved and changed your your business. >>So you had to go back to the business model, right? So technology should follow. The business model business model is fundamental risk transfer. So we take the risk off cost, fluctuation, availability, whatever it is away from the airline and we take it on to us is the Obama's Rolls Royce said the money's at risk. You gotta get really good forecasting. Four. Custom becomes your core skill almost because you've got to understand all the risk drivers understand how to optimize him, understand out of work around that in order to have a successful business. And you can't forecast without data without digital twins without all I ot and cloud and all the while the enablers allow you to sort of new to new generations of capability. >>So you're forecasting what probability of, ah, component failure, the life of ah, failure. How long it takes to bring stuff back on sure >>cost really on three different levels. So we do an engine forecast which is looking at the health of the life of the components in the engine, looking for any reasons why the engine might be forced off the wing. We're looking at a fleet level. So we're looking at all of the things that might affect the global fleet in terms of maintenance demands need for overhaul of those such things. And we forecast that out after 30 years, really accurately, as an engine leaves the factory, we know pretty much within 90 something percent everything that engine is going to require from the maintenance 20 to 30 years and then a network level. We're forecasting the capacity demand that we then need to meet within our maintenance shops globally. >>Well, He's obviously Paul. Been progress, right? We used to fly with very common four engine plains across the pond right now. Two engines. In fact, you don't want to fly in the four engine to engine more reliable. >>You've You've been a Rolls Royce for over 15 years. What have you seen as a result of all this technology is predicted maintenance technology. What impact is that? Had on equipment of reliability on life cycle on fuel efficiency. >>Huge, huge. I think if you don't have the data and you don't have the digital twin kind of capability behind you, you have to treat every engine like it's the worst engine in the fleet because you don't have the data tell you it isn't right. So everything is treated extremely extreme conservatism. If you have the data and you have the models and you have everything else around you, you treat engines, individuals. They have individual histories, individual configuration, individual experiences. Because of individuals. You tailor your maintenance intervention to keep that engine flying as long as you can on, you don't have to be his conservative. You can weed that conservatism out of the process, and that means it stays on wing 40 50% longer. It's flying for the airline that much longer. Revenues. Passengers are flying. There's less disruption. >>So what do you What do you do with my f s? What's the what's >>So Because we created this intelligent engine kind of next generation leap forward in that capability, we need data. So we have, ah, program we call the Blue Data Threat. The blue data traded in a global initiative that we're rolling through all of our 200 plus airline customers. How do we form a win win transaction with the airlines? Give us better data will make smarter decisions. You'll see less disruption, more availability. We'll share our data. Back with you is an operator. So this is a very simple, very nice cashless transactions. So with my intern X, because we share a number of customers, Scott has got a number of airline customers. Big airline customers were operating the maintenance system. What way do together? Is reform a plug in? It's like for us. We can go to an airline, and we can say you have total care inside to borrow an intel phrase. So he complied into the rosary service is seamlessly automated. The data can flow very little burden or effort on to the I t group of the outline. The data flows into our organization. We do what we do when we can push our date again back into the airline systems with updated form, their availability >>so key to that key to that value, Jane is obviously that common customer base. But critical to the work that Rolls Royce stuns does is the accuracy and reliability of the data They get to inform their own performance analysis and maintenance, availability information and the eye if it's made installed. Base leverage is a very rich data from the return on experience of the engine utilization that Nick and is able to use this part of the Blue data threat offering back to their customers. And together we're able to deliver unprecedented levels of value to airline customers and optimizing the availability of their assets. >>Nick, have you? Are you finding new ways to monetize this data beyond just improving the customer experience, a bond with your customers or their new revenue avenues >>for you? So I think within this is absolutely key that everybody within this transaction recognizes this is this is not a revenue opportunity for Rosa. This is a cashless transactions because there's a lot of sensitivity that data belongs to the airline, right? So you have to be very clear and open. That data is driving Rolls Royce to make internal improvements, so we will save a little bit on our bottom line of delivering the service's they've already bought in order to get better. Outcomes of those service is so It's a little early for the service. You were thinking about >>this a little bit like security. In that sense, you know of bad guys are trying to get there. So So the good guys to share data. It's a cashless transaction, and everybody we >>believe is a market collaboration on data is got to be the way Ford's >>Scott could. You double click on the Ecosystem and A and D, obviously different from the sort of core traditional you know, e r. P world. The importance of the ecosystem may be what it looks like, described the >>That's an insightful question, Dave, certainly the partner ecosystem in inner space and defense is somewhat differentiated. I don't want to go so far as to say that it's unique, but it's somewhat differentiated from Corey RPS. As you duly noted partner, our four persecuted for four purpose capability around the critical process is for manufacturers. Maintainers on, uh, parts and subsystem supply organizations is all the potential, and it's a promise. But that value can only be realized to the collaboration with partners who doom or an aerospace and defense and just support delivery and implementation capability. They provide value added service is around business process, reengineering, change, enablement as well as their partners and co innovation as well. Certainly the collaboration we have with Rolls Royce is certainly a new level of collaboration around innovation that hasn't been seen before. So those partners are critical to our ability to deliver that value to our customers. Secondarily, we have our partners are actually a route to market in the traditional sense of referral system like you would see in Corriere P. But more importantly, as an indirect route to market as channels to their end customers, almost I s v ng. Our capability to support the delivery of service is to their customers. >>So it's the it's the manufacturers of the Plains, For example, it's the airlines themselves. It's manufactured the engine defectors, >>the maintainers. So the M R organizations that do the work around repair, and it's the entire ecosystem of organizations to support the supply chain. Our partners are both in themselves as well as partners in delivering the capability to those organizing. >>And it's a data pipeline throughout that value chain a digital thread that you guys actually have visibility on, correct your value. Add to the and >>we have the opportunity to play a vital role between within that equal system in allowing and enabling the connective ity of that network between Williams and their customers between the operators and their maintainers. For example, we've got a collaboration with an airline right now where we're going to connect them directly with the third party organizations that they rely on for airframe repair. For example, >>I want to ask you about the aerospace business it used to be that used to be a very small market in terms of the number of customers. Now we've got Space X. We've got the private areas, three private aerospace companies. We've got different countries now. India, China getting involved. What impact is that having on your business. >>Certainly we're seeing the emergence of spatial program's playing a taking up a larger share of off of government or public sector budgets. And people are beginning to think about how to leverage or harvest the value from utilization of spatial assets and again are enabling capability. To be a collector of that data and supply it back as an information in sight to those were reliant on the data that is collected is a vital role that we play in that ecosystem. >>So when I was when you were describing the ecosystem value chain, it strikes me that there's there's clearly a whole lot of metrics going on. Are there new levers, new metrics, emerging new levers that you can pull to really drive a flywheel effect in the industry? One of the key key performance indicators that you're really trying to optimize visiting? This is >>Certainly this is certainly an industry that characterizes as an intensive, complex mobile and in this case complex in mobile or a pseudonym for very expensive assets. So everything around availability, reliability are all key drivers are performance indicators of our customers ability to realise the value from those assets and our role in that is to provide them with the information inside to be able to make optimal decisions to maximize that availability. >>Anything you dad, >>I think in this day and age things like technical dispatcher alive. Relative engines is so high, high 99 sort of percentage. You have to start focusing on things like the maintenance costs to achieve that. Driving your maintenance costs down, but still retaining your really high availability. That becomes a really interesting balance. You could have under percent of relevancy. What it's gonna cost a fortune. You don't want that. >>Well, gentlemen, thanks so much for coming on. The cute, really fascinating discussion. Thank you. Great to have you. All right, you're welcome. And keep it right there, buddy. Paul Gill on day Volante from I F s World in Boston. You're watching the Cube right back Right after this short break

>>from Boston, Massachusetts. It's the Q covering I. F s World Conference 2019. Brought to you by I F s. Hi, buddy. Welcome to Boston. You're watching the cubes coverage of I s s World in the Heinz Auditorium in Boston. I'm Day Volonte with my co host, Paul Gill and Paul. This is the the largest enterprise resource planning software company that our audience probably has never heard of. This is our second year covering I f s World. Last year was in Atlanta. They moved to Boston. I f s is a Swedish based company. They do about $600 million in annual revenue, about 3700 employees. And interestingly, they have a development center in Sri Lanka, of all places. Which is kind of was war torn for the last 15 years or so, but nonetheless, evidently, a lot of talent and beautiful views, but so welcome. >>Thank you, Dave. I have to admit, before our coverage last year, I had never even heard of this company been around this industry for more than 30 years. Never heard of this company. They've got 10,000 customers. They've got a full house next door in the keynote and very enthusiastic group. This is a focus company. It's a company that has a lot of ah ah, vision about where wants to go some impressive vision documents and really a company that I think it's coming out of the shadows in the U. S. And it will be a force to be reckoned with. >>So I should say they were founded in the in the mid 19 eighties, and then it kind of re architected their whole platform around Client server. You remember the component move? It was a sort of big trends in the in the nineties. In the mid nineties opened up offices in the United States. We're gonna talk to the head of North America later, and that's one of the big growth areas that growing at about three. They claim to be growing at three x the overall market rate, which is a good benchmark. They're really their focus is really three areas e r. P asset management software and field service management, and they talk about deep functionality. So, for instance, they compete with Oracle ASAP. Certainly Microsoft and in four company we've covered in four talks a lot about the last mile functionality. That's not terminology that I f s uses, but they do similar types of things. I'll give you some examples because, okay, what's last mile? Functionality? Things like, um, detailed invoicing integration, contract management. Very narrow search results on things like I just want to search for a refurbished parts so they have functionality to allow you to do that. Chain. A custom e custody chain of custody for handling dangerous toxic chemicals. Certain modules to handle FDA compliance. A real kind of nitty gritty stuff to help companies avoid custom modifications in certain industries. Energy, construction, aerospace and defense is a big area for that. For them, a CZ well as manufacturing, >>there's a segment of the e r P market that often is under uh is under seeing. There's a lot of these companies that started out in niches Peoples off being a famous example, starting out on a niche of the market and then growing into other areas. And this company continues to be very focused even after 35 years, as you mentioned, just energy aerospace, a few construction, a few basic industries that they serve serve them at a very deep level focused on the mid market primarily, but they have a new positioning this year. They're calling the challengers for the challengers, which I like. It's a it's a message that I think resonates. It's easy to understand there position their customers is being the companies that are going to challenge the big guys in their industries and this time of digital transformation and disruption. You know, that's what it's all about. I think it's a great message of bringing out this year. >>Of course I like it because the Cube is a challenger, right? Okay, even though we're number one of the segments that we cover, we started out as a sort of a challenger. Interestingly, I f s and the gardener Magic Corners actually, leader and Field Service Management. They made an acquisition that they announced today of a company called Asked. He asked, U S he is a pink sheet OTC company. I mean, they're very small is a tuck in acquisition that maybe they had a They had a sub $20 million market cap. They probably do 25 $30 million in revenue. Um, Darren rules. The CEO said that this place is them is the leader in field service management, which is interesting. We're gonna ask him about that to your other point. You look around the ecosystem here that they have 400 partners. I was surprised last night. I came early to sort of walk around the hall floor. You see large companies here like Accenture. Um and I'm surprised. I mean, I remember the early days when we did the service. Now conferences 2013 or so you didn't see accent. You're Delloye E Y p W c. Now you see them at the service now event here that you see them? I mean, and I talked to essential last night. They said, Yeah, well, we actually do a lot of business in Europe, particularly in the Scandinavian region, and we want to grow the business in the U. S. >>Europe tends to be kind of a blind spot for us cos they don't see the size of the European market, all the activities where some of the great e. R. P. Innovation has come out of Europe. This company, as you mentioned growing three times the rate of the market, they have a ah focus on your very tight with those customers that they serve and they understand them very well. And this is a you can see why it's centuries is is serving this market because, you know they're simply following the money. There's only so much growth left in the S a P market in the Oracle market. But as the CEO Darren said this morning, Ah, half of their revenues last year were from net new customers. So that's that's a great metric. That indicates that there's a lot of new business for these partners to pursue. >>Well, I think there's there's some fatigue, obviously, for big, long multi year s AP integrations, you're also seeing, you know, at the macro we work with Enterprise Technology Research and we have access to their data set. One of the things that we're seeing is a slowdown in the macro. Clearly, buyers are planning to spend less on I T in the second half of 2019 than they did in the first half of 2019 and they expect to spend less in Q four than they expected to in July. So things are clearly softening at the macro level. They're reverting back to pre 2018 levels but it's not falling off a cliff. One of the things that I've talked to e t. R about the premise we put forth love to get your thoughts is essentially we started digital transformation projects, Let's say in earnest in 2016 2017 doing a lot of pilots started kind of pre production in 2018. And during that time, what people were doing is they were had a lot of redundancy. They would maintain the legacy systems and they were experimenting with disruptive technologies. You saw, obviously a lot of you. I path a lot of snowflake and other sort of disruptive technology. Certainly an infrastructure. Pure storage was the beneficiary of that. So you had this sort of dual strategy. We had redundancy of legacy systems, and then the new stuff. What's happening now is, is the theory is that we're going into production. Would digital transformation projects and where were killing the legacy stuff? Okay, we're ready to cut over >>to a new land on that anymore, >>right? We're not going to spend them anymore. Dial that down. Number one. Number two is we're not just gonna spray and pray on all new tech Blockchain a i rp et cetera. We're gonna now focus on those areas that we think are going to drive business value. So both the incumbents and the disruptors are getting somewhat affected by that. That slowdown in that narrowing of the focused. And so I think that's really what's happening. And we're gonna, I think, have to absorb that for a year or so before we start to see new wave of spending. >>There's been a lot of spending on I t over the last three years. As you say, driven by this need, this transition that's going on now we're being going to see some of those legacy systems turned off. The more important thing I have to look at, I think the overall spending is where is that money being spent is being spent on on servers or is it being spent on cloud service is, and I think you would see a fairly dramatic shift going on. They're so the overall, the macro. I think it's still healthy for I t. There's still a lot of spending going on, but it's shifting to a new area there. They're killing off some of that redundancy. >>Well, the TR data shows couple things. There's no question that server and storage spending is has been declining and attenuating for a number of quarters now. And there's been a shift going on from that. Core infrastructure, obviously, into Cloud Cloud continues its steady march in terms of taking over market share. Other areas of bright spots security is clearly one. You're seeing a lot of spending in an analytics, especially new analytics. I mentioned Snowflake before we're disrupting kind of terror Data's traditional legacy enterprise data warehouse market. The R P. A market is also very hot. You AI path is a company that continues to extend beyond its its peers, although I have to say automation anywhere looks very strong. Blue Prison looks very strong. Cloudera interestingly used to be the darling is hitting sort of all time lows in the E. T R database, which is, by the way, that one of the best data sets I've ever seen on on spending enterprise software is actually still pretty strong. Particularly, uh, you know, workday look strong. Sales force still looks pretty strong. Splunk Because of the security uplift, it still looks pretty strong. I have a lot of data on I f s Like you said, they don't really show up in the e t R survey base. Um, but I would expect, with kind of growth, we're seeing $600 million. Company hopes to be a $1,000,000,000 by 2022 2021. I would think they're going to start showing up in the spending >>service well again in Europe. They may be They may be more dominant player than we see in the US. As I said, I really had not even heard of the company before last year, which was surprising for a company with 10,000 customers. Again, they're focused on the mid market in the mid market tends to fly a bit under the radar. Everyone thinks about what's happening in the enterprise is a huge opportunity out there. Many more mid market companies and there are enterprises. And that's a that's been historically a fertile ground for e. R. P. Companies to launch. You know J. D. Edwards came out of the mid market thes are companies that may end up being acquired by the Giants, but they build up a very healthy base of customers, sort of under the radar. >>Well, the other point I wanted to make I kind of started to about the digital transformation is, as they say, people are getting sort of sick of the big, long, ASAP complicated implementations. As small companies become midsize companies and larger midsize companies, they they look toward an enterprise resource planning, type of, of platform. And they're probably saying, All right, wait. I've got some choices here. I could go with an an I F. S, you know, or maybe another alternative. T s a p. You know, A S A P is maybe maybe the safe bet. Although, you know, it looks like i f s is got when you look around at the customers, they have has some real traction, obviously a lot of references, no question about it. One of things they've been digging for saw this gardener doing them for a P I integrations. Well, they've announced some major AP I integrations. We're gonna talk to them about that and poke it that a little bit and see if that will So to solve that criticism, that what Gardner calls caution, you know, let's see how real that is in talking to some of the customers will be talkinto the executives on members of the ecosystem. And obviously Paul and I will be giving our analysis as well. Final thoughts >>here. Just the challenge, I think, is you note for these midmarket focus Cos. Has been growing with their customers. And that's why you see of Lawson's in the JD Edwards of the World. Many of these these mid market companies eventually are acquired by the big E R P vendors. The customers eventually, if they grow, have to go through this transition. If they're going to go to Enterprise. The R P you know, they're forced into a couple of big choices. The opportunity and the challenge for F s is, can they grow those customers as they move into enterprise grade size? Can they grow them with with E. I. F s product line without having them forcing them to transition to something bigger? >>So a lot of here a lot of action here in Boston, we heard from several outside speakers. There was Linda Hill from Harvard. They had a digital transformation CEO panel, the CEO of soo say who will be on later uh PTC, a Conway, former PeopleSoft CEO was on there. And then, of course, Tony Hawk, which was a lot of fun, obviously a challenger. All right, so keep it right there, buddy. You're watching the Cube live from I F s World Conference at the Heinz in Boston right back, right after this short break.

>> from Cambridge, Massachusetts. It's three Cube covering M I T. Chief data officer and information quality Symposium 2019. Brought to you by Silicon Angle Media. >> Welcome back. We're here to wrap up the M I T. Chief data officer officer, information quality. It's hashtag m i t CDO conference. You're watching the Cube. I'm David Dante, and Paul Gill is my co host. This is two days of coverage. We're wrapping up eyes. Our analysis of what's going on here, Paul, Let me let me kick it off. When we first started here, we talked about that are open. It was way saw the chief data officer role emerged from the back office, the information quality role. When in 2013 the CEO's that we talked to when we asked them what was their scope. We heard things like, Oh, it's very wide. Involves analytics, data science. Some CEOs even said Oh, yes, security is actually part of our purview because all the cyber data so very, very wide scope. Even in some cases, some of the digital initiatives were sort of being claimed. The studios were staking their claim. The reality was the CDO also emerged out of highly regulated industries financialservices healthcare government. And it really was this kind of wonky back office role. And so that's what my compliance, that's what it's become again. We're seeing that CEOs largely you're not involved in a lot of the emerging. Aye, aye initiatives. That's what we heard, sort of anecdotally talking to various folks At the same time. I feel as though the CDO role has been more fossilized than it was before. We used to ask, Is this role going to be around anymore? We had C I. Ose tell us that the CEO Rose was going to disappear, so you had both ends of the spectrum. But I feel as though that whatever it's called CDO Data's our chief analytics off officer, head of data, you know, analytics and governance. That role is here to stay, at least for for a fair amount of time and increasingly, issues of privacy and governance. And at least the periphery of security are gonna be supported by that CD a role. So that's kind of takeaway Number one. Let me get your thoughts. >> I think there's a maturity process going on here. What we saw really in 2016 through 2018 was, ah, sort of a celebration of the arrival of the CDO. And we're here, you know, we've got we've got power now we've got an agenda. And that was I mean, that was a natural outcome of all this growth and 90% of organizations putting sea Dios in place. I think what you're seeing now is a realization that Oh, my God, this is a mess. You know what I heard? This year was a lot less of this sort of crowing about the ascendance of sea Dios and Maura about We've got a big integration problem of big data cleansing problem, and we've got to get our hands down to the nitty gritty. And when you talk about, as you said, we had in here so much this year about strategic initiatives, about about artificial intelligence, about getting involved in digital business or customer experience transformation. What we heard this year was about cleaning up data, finding the data that you've got organizing it, applying meditator, too. It is getting in shape to do something with it. There's nothing wrong with that. I just think it's part of the natural maturation process. Organizations now have to go through Tiu to the dirty process of cleaning up this data before they can get to the next stage, which was a couple of three years out for most of >> the second. Big theme, of course. We heard this from the former head of analytics. That G s K on the opening keynote is the traditional methods have failed the the Enterprise Data Warehouse, and we've actually studied this a lot. You know, my analogy is often you snake swallowing a basketball, having to build cubes. E D W practitioners would always used to call it chasing the chips until we come up with a new chip. Oh, we need that because we gotta run faster because it's taking us hours and hours, weeks days to run these analytics. So that really was not an agile. It was a rear view mirror looking thing. And Sarbanes Oxley saved the E. D. W. Business because reporting became part of compliance thing perspective. The master data management piece we've heard. Do you consistently? We heard Mike Stone Breaker, who's obviously a technology visionary, was right on. It doesn't scale through this notion of duping. Everything just doesn't work and manually creating rules. It's just it's just not the right approach. This we also heard the top down data data enterprise data model doesn't works too complicated, can operationalize it. So what they do, they kick the can to governance. The Duke was kind of a sidecar, their big data that failed to live up to its promises. And so it's It's a big question as to whether or not a I will bring that level of automation we heard from KPMG. Certainly, Mike Stone breaker again said way heard this, uh, a cz well, from Andy Palmer. They're using technology toe automate and scale that big number one data science problem, which is? They spend all their time wrangling data. We'll see if that if that actually lives up >> to his probable is something we did here today from several of our guests. Was about the promise of machine learning to automate this day to clean up process and as ah Mark Ramsay kick off the conference saying that all of these efforts to standardize data have failed in the past. This does look, He then showed how how G s K had used some of the tools that were represented here using machine learning to actually clean up the data at G S. K. So there is. And I heard today a lot of optimism from the people we talked to about the capability of Chris, for example, talking about the capability of machine learning to bring some order to solve this scale scale problem Because really organizing data creating enterprise data models is a scale problem, and the only way you can solve that it's with with automation, Mike Stone breaker is right on top of that. So there was optimism at this event. There was kind of an ooh, kind of, ah, a dismay at seeing all the data problems they have to clean up, but also promised that tools are on the way that could do that. >> Yeah, The reason I'm an optimist about this role is because data such a hard problem. And while there is a feeling of wow, this is really a challenge. There's a lot of smart people here who are up for the challenge and have the d n a for it. So the role, that whole 360 thing. We talked about the traditional methods, you know, kind of failing, and in the third piece that touched on, which is really bringing machine intelligence to the table. We haven't heard that as much at this event. It's now front and center. It's just another example of a I injecting itself into virtually every aspect every corner of the industry. And again, I often jokes. Same wine, new bottle. Our industry has a habit of doing that, but it's cyclical, but it is. But we seem to be making consistent progress. >> And the machine learning, I thought was interesting. Several very guest spoke to machine learning being applied to the plumbing projects right now to cleaning up data. Those are really self contained projects. You can manage those you can. You can determine out test outcomes. You can vet the quality of the of the algorithms. It's not like you're putting machine learning out there in front of the customer where it could potentially do some real damage. There. They're vetting their burning in machine, learning in a environment that they control. >> Right, So So, Amy, Two solid days here. I think that this this conference has really grown when we first started here is about 130 people, I think. And now it was 500 registrants. This'd year. I think 600 is the sort of the goal for next year. Moving venues. The Cube has been covering this all but one year since 2013. Hope to continue to do that. Paul was great working with you. Um, always great work. I hope we can, uh we could do more together. We heard the verdict is bringing back its conference. You put that together. So we had column. Mahoney, um, had the vertical rock stars on which was fun. Com Mahoney, Mike Stone breaker uh, Andy Palmer and Chris Lynch all kind of weighed in, which was great to get their perspectives kind of the days of MPP and how that's evolved improving on traditional relational database. And and now you're Stone breaker. Applying all these m i. Same thing with that scale with Chris Lynch. So it's fun to tow. Watch those guys all Boston based East Coast folks some news. We just saw the news hit President Trump holding up jet icon contractors is we've talked about. We've been following that story very closely and I've got some concerns over that. It's I think it's largely because he doesn't like Bezos in The Washington Post Post. Exactly. You know, here's this you know, America first. The Pentagon says they need this to be competitive with China >> and a I. >> There's maybe some you know, where there's smoke. There's fire there, so >> it's more important to stick in >> the eye. That's what it seems like. So we're watching that story very closely. I think it's I think it's a bad move for the executive branch to be involved in those type of decisions. But you know what I know? Well, anyway, Paul awesome working with you guys. Thanks. And to appreciate you flying out, Sal. Good job, Alex Mike. Great. Already wrapping up. So thank you for watching. Go to silicon angle dot com for all the news. Youtube dot com slash silicon angles where we house our playlist. But the cube dot net is the main site where we have all the events. It will show you what's coming up next. We've got a bunch of stuff going on straight through the summer. And then, of course, VM World is the big kickoff for the fall season. Goto wicked bond dot com for all the research. We're out. Thanks for watching Dave. A lot day for Paul Gillon will see you next time.