(upbeat music) >> Welcome everyone to theCUBE's presentation of the AWS Startup Showcase Open Cloud Innovations. This is season two of the ongoing series. We're covering exciting start startups in the AWS ecosystem to talk about open source community stuff. I'm your host, Dave Nicholson. And I'm delighted today to have two guests from Weaveworks. Steve George, COO of Weaveworks, and Steve Waterworth, technical marketing engineer from Weaveworks. Welcome, gentlemen, how are you? >> Very well, thanks. >> Very well, thanks very much. >> So, Steve G., what's the relationship with AWS? This is the AWS Startup Showcase. How do Weaveworks and AWS interact? >> Yeah sure. So, AWS is a investor in Weaveworks. And we, actually, collaborate really closely around EKS and some specific EKS tooling. So, in the early days of Kubernetes when AWS was working on EKS, the Elastic Kubernetes Service, we started working on the command line interface for EKS itself. And due to that partnership, we've been working closely with the EKS team for a long period of time, helping them to build the CLI and make sure that users in the community find EKS really easy to use. And so that brought us together with the AWS team, working on GitOps and thinking about how to deploy applications and clusters using this GitOps approach. And we've built that into the EKS CLI, which is an open source tool, is a project on GitHub. So, everybody can get involved with that, use it, contribute to it. We love hearing user feedback about how to help teams take advantage of the elastic nature of Kubernetes as simply and easily as possible. >> Well, it's great to have you. Before we get into the specifics around what Weaveworks is doing in this area that we're about to discuss, let's talk about this concept of GitOps. Some of us may have gotten too deep into a Netflix series, and we didn't realize that we've moved on from the world of DevOps or DevSecOps and the like. Explain where GitOps fits into this evolution. >> Yeah, sure. So, really GitOps is an instantiation, a version of DevOps. And it fits within the idea that, particularly in the Kubernetes world, we have a model in Kubernetes, which tells us exactly what we want to deploy. And so what we're talking about is using Git as a way of recording what we want to be in the runtime environment, and then telling Kubernetes from the configuration that is stored in Git exactly what we want to deploy. So, in a sense, it's very much aligned with DevOps, because we know we want to bring teams together, help them to deploy their applications, their clusters, their environments. And really with GitOps, we have a specific set of tools that we can use. And obviously what's nice about Git is it's a very developer tool, or lots and lots of developers use it, the vast majority. And so what we're trying to do is bring those operational processes into the way that developers work. So, really bringing DevOps to that generation through that specific tooling. >> So Steve G., let's continue down this thread a little bit. Why is it necessary then this sort of added wrinkle? If right now in my organization we have developers, who consider themselves to be DevOps folks, and we give them Amazon gift cards each month. And we say, "Hey, it's a world of serverless, "no code, low code lights out data centers. "Go out and deploy your code. "Everything should be fine." What's the problem with that model, and how does GitOps come in and address that? >> Right. I think there's a couple of things. So, for individual developers, one of the big challenges is that, when you watch development teams, like deploying applications and running them, you watch them switching between all those different tabs, and services, and systems that they're using. So, GitOps has a real advantage to developers, because they're already sat in Git, they're already using their familiar tooling. And so by bringing operations within that developer tooling, you're giving them that familiarity. So, it's one advantage for developers. And then for operations staff, one of the things that it does is it centralizes where all of this configuration is kept. And then you can use things like templating and some other things that we're going to be talking about today to make sure that you automate and go quickly, but you also do that in a way which is reliable, and secure, and stable. So, it's really helping to bring that run fast, but don't break things kind of ethos to how we can deploy and run applications in the cloud. >> So, Steve W., let's start talking about where Weaveworks comes into the picture, and what's your perspective. >> So, yeah, Weaveworks has an engine, a set of software, that enables this to happen. So, think of it as a constant reconciliation engine. So, you've got your declared state, your desired state is declared in Git. So, this is where all your YAML for all your Kubernetes hangs out. And then you have an agent that's running inside Kubernetes, that's the Weaveworks GitOps agent. And it's constantly comparing the desired state in Git with the actual state, which is what's running in Kubernetes. So, then as a developer, you want to make a change, or an operator, you want to make a change. You push a change into Git. The reconciliation loop runs and says, "All right, what we've got in Git does not match "what we've got in Kubernetes. "Therefore, I will create story resource, whatever." But it also works the other way. So, if someone does directly access Kubernetes and make a change, then the next time that reconciliation loop runs, it's automatically reverted back to that single source of truth in Git. So, your Kubernetes cluster, you don't get any configuration drift. It's always configured as you desire it to be configured. And as Steve George has already said, from a developer or engineer point of view, it's easy to use. They're just using Git just as they always have done and continue to do. There's nothing new to learn. No change to working practices. I just push code into Git, magic happens. >> So, Steve W., little deeper dive on that. When we hear Ops, a lot of us start thinking about, specifically in terms of infrastructure, and especially since infrastructure when deployed and left out there, even though it's really idle, you're paying for it. So, anytime there's an Ops component to the discussion, cost and resource management come into play. You mentioned this idea of not letting things drift from a template. What are those templates based on? Are they based on... Is this primarily an infrastructure discussion, or are we talking about the code itself that is outside of the infrastructure discussion? >> It's predominantly around the infrastructure. So, what you're managing in Git, as far as Kubernetes is concerned, is always deployment files, and services, and horizontal pod autoscalers, all those Kubernetes entities. Typically, the source code for your application, be it in Java, Node.js, whatever it is you happen to be writing it in, that's, typically, in a separate repository. You, typically, don't combine the two. So, you've got one set of repository, basically, for building your containers, and your CLI will run off that, and ultimately push a container into a registry somewhere. Then you have a separate repo, which is your config. repo, which declares what version of the containers you're going to run, how many you're going to run, how the services are bound to those containers, et cetera. >> Yeah, that makes sense. Steve G., talk to us about this concept of trusted application delivery with GitOps, and frankly, it's what led to the sort of prior question. When you think about trusted application delivery, where is that intertwinement between what we think of as the application code versus the code that is creating the infrastructure? So, what is trusted application delivery? >> Sure, so, with GitOps, we have the ability to deploy the infrastructure components. And then we also define what the application containers are, that would go to be deployed into that environment. And so, this is a really interesting question, because some teams will associate all of the services that an application needs within an application team. And sometimes teams will deploy sort of horizontal infrastructure, which then all application teams services take advantage of. Either way, you can define that within your configuration, within your GitOps configuration. Now, when you start deploying speed, particularly when you have multiple different teams doing these sorts of deployments, one of the questions that starts to come up will be from the security team, or someone who's thinking about, well, what happens if we make a deployment, which is accidentally incorrect, or if there is a security issue in one of those dependencies, and we need to get a new version deployed as quickly as possible? And so, in the GitOps pipeline, one of the things that we can do is to put in various checkpoints to check that the policy is being followed correctly. So, are we deploying the right number of applications, the right configuration of an application? Does that application follow certain standards that the enterprise has set down? And that's what we talk about when we talk about trusted policy and trusted delivery. Because really what we're thinking about here is enabling the development teams to go as quickly as possible with their new deployments, but protecting them with automated guard rails. So, making sure that they can go fast, but they are not going to do anything which destroys the reliability of the application platform. >> Yeah, you've mentioned reliability and kind of alluded to scalability in the application environment. What about looking at this from the security perspective? There've been some recently, pretty well publicized breaches. Not a lot of senior executives in enterprises understand that a very high percentage of code that their businesses are running on is coming out of the open source community, where developers and maintainers are, to a certain degree, what they would consider to be volunteers. That can be a scary thing. So, talk about why an enterprise struggles today with security, policy, and governance. And I toss this out to Steve W. Or Steve George. Answer appropriately. >> I'll try that in a high level, and Steve W. can give more of the technical detail. I mean, I'll say that when I talk to enterprise customers, there's two areas of concern. One area of concern is that, we're in an environment with DevOps where we started this conversation of trying to help teams to go as quickly as possible. But there's many instances where teams accidentally do things, but, nonetheless, that is a security issue. They deploy something manually into an environment, they forget about it, and that's something which is wrong. So, helping with this kind of policy as code pipeline, ensuring that everything goes through a set of standards could really help teams. And that's why we call it developer guard rails, because this is about helping the development team by providing automation around the outside, that helps them to go faster and relieves them from that mental concern of have they made any mistakes or errors. So, that's one form. And then the other form is the form, where you are going, David, which is really around security dependencies within software, a whole supply chain of concern. And what we can do there, by, again, having a set of standard scanners and policy checking, which ensures that everything is checked before it goes into the environment. That really helps to make sure that there are no security issues in the runtime deployment. Steve W., anything that I missed there? >> Yeah, well, I'll just say, I'll just go a little deeper on the technology bit. So, essentially, we have a library of policies, which get you started. Of course, you can modify those policies, write your own. The library is there just to get you going. So, as a change is made, typically, via, say, a GitHub action, the policy engine then kicks in and checks all those deployment files, all those YAML for Kubernetes, and looks for things that then are outside of policy. And if that's the case, then the action will fail, and that'll show up on the pull request. So, things like, are your containers coming from trusted sources? You're not just pulling in some random container from a public registry. You're actually using a trusted registry. Things like, are containers running as route, or are they running in privileged mode, which, again, it could be a security? But it's not just about security, it can also be about coding standards. Are the containers correctly annotated? Is the deployment correctly annotated? Does it have the annotation fields that we require for our coding standards? And it can also be about reliability. Does the deployment script have the health checks defined? Does it have a suitable replica account? So, a rolling update. We'll actually do a rolling update. You can't do a rolling update with only one replica. So, you can have all these sorts of checks and guards in there. And then finally, there's an admission controller that runs inside Kubernetes. So, if someone does try and squeeze through, and do something a little naughty, and go directly to the cluster, it's not going to happen, 'cause that admission controller is going to say, "Hey, no, that's a policy violation. "I'm not letting that in." So, it really just stops. It stops developers making mistakes. I know, I know, I've done development, and I've deployed things into Kubernetes, and haven't got the conflict quite right, and then it falls flat on its face. And you're sitting there scratching your head. And with the policy checks, then that wouldn't happen. 'Cause you would try and put something in that has a slightly iffy configuration, and it would spit it straight back out at you. >> So, obviously you have some sort of policy engine that you're you're relying on. But what is the user experience like? I mean, is this a screen that is reminiscent of the matrix with non-readable characters streaming down that only another machine can understand? What does this look like to the operator? >> Yeah, sure, so, we have a console, a web console, where developers and operators can use a set of predefined policies. And so that's the starting point. And we have a set of recommendations there and policies that you can just attach to your deployments. So, set of recommendations about different AWS resources, deployment types, EKS deployment types, different sets of standards that your enterprise might be following along with. So, that's one way of doing it. And then you can take those policies and start customizing them to your needs. And by using GitOps, what we're aiming for here is to bring both the application configuration, the environment configuration. We talked about this earlier, all of this being within Git. We're adding these policies within Git as well. So, for advanced users, they'll have everything that they need together in a single unit of change, your application, your definitions of how you want to run this application service, and the policies that you want it to follow, all together in Git. And then when there is some sort of policy violation on the other end of the pipeline, people can see where this policy is being violated, how it was violated. And then for a set of those, we try and automate by showing a pull request for the user about how they can fix this policy violation. So, try and make it as simple as possible. Because in many of these sorts of violations, if you're a busy developer, there'll be minor configuration details going against the configuration, and you just want to fix those really quickly. >> So Steve W., is that what the Mega Leaks policy engine is? >> Yes, that's the Mega Leaks policy engine. So, yes, it's a SaaS-based service that holds the actual policy engine and your library of policies. So, when your GitHub action runs, it goes and essentially makes a call across with the configuration and does the check and spits out any violation errors, if there are any. >> So, folks in this community really like to try things before they deploy them. Is there an opportunity for people to get a demo of this, get their hands on it? what's the best way to do that? >> The best way to do it is have a play with it. As an engineer, I just love getting my hands dirty with these sorts of things. So, yeah, you can go to the Mega Leaks website and get a 30-day free trial. You can spin yourself up a little, test cluster, and have a play. >> So, what's coming next? We had DevOps, and then DevSecOps, and now GitOps. What's next? Are we going to go back to all infrastructure on premises all the time, back to waterfall? Back to waterfall, "Hot Tub Time Machine?" What's the prediction? >> Well, I think the thing that you set out right at the start, actually, is the prediction. The difference between infrastructure and applications is steadily going away, as we try and be more dynamic in the way that we deploy. And for us with GitOps, I think we're... When we talk about operations, there's a lots of depth to what we mean about operations. So, I think there's lots of areas to explore how to bring operations into developer tooling with GitOps. So, that's, I think, certainly where Weaveworks will be focusing. >> Well, as an old infrastructure guy myself, I see this as vindication. Because infrastructure still matters, kids. And we need sophisticated ways to make sure that the proper infrastructure is applied. People are shocked to learn that even serverless application environments involve servers. So, I tell my 14-year-old son this regularly, he doesn't believe it, but it is what it is. Steve W., any final thoughts on this whole move towards GitOps and, specifically, the Weaveworks secret sauce and superpower. >> Yeah. It's all about (indistinct)... It's all about going as quickly as possible, but without tripping up. Being able to run fast, but without tripping over your shoe laces, which you forgot to tie up. And that's what the automation brings. It allows you to go quickly, does lots of things for you, and yeah, we try and stop you shooting yourself in the foot as you're going. >> Well, it's been fantastic talking to both of you today. For the audience's sake, I'm in California, and we have a gentleman in France, and a gentlemen in the UK. It's just the wonders of modern technology never cease. Thanks, again, Steve Waterworth, Steve George from Weaveworks. Thanks for coming on theCUBE for the AWS Startup Showcase. And to the rest of us, keep it right here for more action on theCUBE, your leader in tech coverage. (upbeat music)

>>Mhm. Mhm. >>We're here with the Cube covering Calm Vault Connections 21. We're gonna look at the data protection space and how cloud computing has advanced the way we think about backup recovery and protecting our most critical data. Ranga Rajagopalan, who is the vice president of products at Con vault and Stephen Orban, who's the General manager of AWS marketplace and control services gents. Welcome to the cube. Good to see you. >>Thank you. Always A pleasure to see you here >>steve. Thanks for having us. Very >>welcome, Stephen, let's start with you. Look the cloud has become a staple of digital infrastructure. I don't know where we'd be right now without being able to access enterprise services I. T. Services remotely. Um But specifically how our customers looking at backup and recovery in the cloud, is it a kind of a replacement for existing strategies? Is it another layer of protection? How are they thinking about that? >>Yeah. Great question. David again, thank thanks for having me. And I think you know, look if you look back to 15 years ago when the founders of AWS had the hypothesis that many enterprises governments and developers we're gonna want access to on demand pay as you go I. T. Resources in the cloud. Uh None of us would have been able to predict that it would have Matured and um you know become the staple that it has today over the last 15 years. But the reality is that a lot of these enterprise customers, many of whom have been doing their own IT infrastructure for the last 10, 20 or multiple decades do have to kind of figure out how they deal with the change management of moving to the cloud. And while a lot of our customers um will initially come to us because they're looking to save money or costs, almost all of them decided to stay and go big because of the speed at which they are able to innovate on behalf of their customers and when it comes to storage and backup, that just plays right into where they're headed. And there's a variety of different techniques that customers use, whether it be, you know, a lift and shift for a particular set of applications or a data center where they do very much. Look at how can they replace the backup and recovery that they have on premises in the cloud using solutions like, but we're partnering with console to do or completely reimagining their architecture for net new developments that they can really move quickly for their customers. Um and and completely developing something brand new, where it is really a, you know, a brand new replacement and innovation for for for what they've done in the past. >>Great, thank you, Stephen Rachael, I want to ask you about the d were digital. Look, if you're not a digital business today, you're basically out of business. So, my question to you is how have you seen customers change the way they think about data protection during what I call the forced March to digital over the last 18, 19 months or customers, you know, thinking about data protection differently today >>definitely Dave and and thank you for having me and steven. Pleasure to join you on this cube interview first going back to stevens comments can't agree more. Almost every business that we talked with today has a cloud first strategy, a cloud transformation mandate and you know, the reality is back to your digital comment. There are many different paths to the hybrid multi cloud and different customers. You know, there are different parts of the journey. So I still was saying most often customers at least in the data protection perspective start the conversation by thinking here have all these tips. Can I start using cloud as my air gap long term retention target and before they realized they start moving their workloads into the cloud and none of the backup and record yesterday's are going to change. So you need to continue protecting the clothes, which is where the cloud native data protection comes in and then they start innovating around er, can I use cloud as media sites so that you know, I don't need to meet in the other side. So this year is all around us. Cloud transformation is all around us and and the real essence of this partnership between AWS and calm vault is essentially to dr and simplify all the paths to the club regardless of whether you're going to use it as a storage started or you know, your production data center, all your dear disaster recovery site. >>Yeah, it really is about providing that optionality for customers. I talked to a lot of customers and said, hey, our business resilience strategy was really too focused on D. R. I've talked to all the customers at the other end of the spectrum said we don't even have a D. R. Strategy now, we're using the cloud for that. So it's really all over the map and you want that optionality. So steven and then go ahead. >>Please, ransomware plays a big role in many of these considerations that greatly. It's unfortunately not a question of whether you're going to be hit by ransomware, it's almost we can like, what do you do when you're hit by ransomware and the ability to use the clothes scaled immediately, bring up the resources, use the cloud backups has become a very popular choice simply because of the speed with which you can bring the business back to normal our patients. The agility and the power that cloud brings to the table. >>Yeah, ransomware is scary. You don't, you don't even need a high school diploma to be a ransomware ist you can just go on the dark web and by ransomware as a service and do bad things and hopefully you'll end up in jail. Uh Stephen we know about the success of the AWS marketplace, uh you guys are partnering here. I'm interested in how that partnership, you know, kind of where it started and how it's evolving. >>Yeah, happy to highlight on that. So, look when >>we when we started >>Aws or when the founders of aws started aws, as I said 15 years ago we we realized very early on that while we were going to be able to provide a number of tools for customers to have on demand access to compute storage, networking databases that many, particularly enterprise and government government customers still use a wide range of tools and solutions from hundreds, if not in some cases thousands of different partners. I mean I talked to enterprises who literally use thousands of of different vendors to help them deliver their solutions for their customers. So almost 10 years ago, we're almost at our 10 year anniversary for AWS marketplace, we launched the first substantiation of AWS marketplace which allowed builders and customers to find try buy and then deploy third party software solutions running on amazon machine instances also noticed as armies natively right in their AWS and cloud accounts to complement what they were doing in the cloud. And over the last nearly 10 years we've evolved quite a bit to the point where we support software and multiple different packaging types, whether it be amazon machine instances, containers, machine learning models and of course SAS and the rise of software as a service. So customers don't have to manage the software themselves. But we also support data products through the AWS Data exchange and professional services for customers who want to get services to help them integrate the software into their environments. And we now do that across a wide range of procurement options. So what used to be pay as you go amazon machine instances now includes multiple different ways to contract directly, customer can do that directly with the vendor with their channel partner or using kind of our public e commerce capabilities. And we're super excited, um, over the last couple of months we've been partnering with calm vault to get their industry leading backup and recovery solutions listed on AWS marketplace, which is available for our collective customers now. So not only do they have access to convulse awesome solutions to help them protect against ransomware as we talked about and to manage their backup and recovery environments, but they can find and deploy that directly in one click right into their AWS accounts and consolidate their building relationship right on the AWS and voice. And it's been awesome to work with with Rhonda and the product teams and convo to really, um, expose those capabilities where converts using a lot of different AWS services to provide a really great native experience for our collective customers as they migrate to the cloud. >>Yeah, the marketplace has been amazing. We've watched it evolve over the past decade and, and, and it's a, it's a key characteristic of everybody has a cloud today. We're a cloud to butt marketplaces unique uh, in that it's the power of the ecosystem versus the resources of one and Ringo. I wonder from, from your perspective, if you could talk about the partnership with AWS from your view and then specifically you've got some hard news, I wonder if you could talk about that as well. >>Absolute. So the partnership has been extended for more than 12 years. Right. So aws and Commonwealth have been bringing together solutions that help customers solve the data management challenges and everything that we've been doing has been driven by the customer demand that we seek. Right customers are moving their workloads in the cloud. They're finding new ways of deploying their workloads and protecting them. Um, you know, earlier we introduced cloud native integration with the EBS API which has driven almost 70% performance improvements in backup and restores. And when you look at huge customers like coca cola who have standardized on AWS um, combo. That is the scale that they want to operate in. You manage around 1 50,000 snapshots 1200 ec, two instances across six regions. But with just one resource dedicated for the data management strategy. Right? So that's where the real built in integration comes into play and we've been extending it to make use of the cloud efficiencies like our management and auto scale and so on. Another aspect is our commitment to a radically simple customer experience and that's, you know, I'm sure Stephen would agree it's a big month for at AWS as well. That's really together with the customer demand which brought us together to introduce com ball into the AWS marketplace exactly the way Stephen described it. Now the heart announcement is coming back up and recovery is available in native this marketplace. So the exact four steps that Stephen mentioned, find, try buy and deploy everything simplified through the marketplace So that our aws customers can start using far more back of software in less than 20 minutes. A 60 year trial version is included in the product through marketplace and you know, it's a single click buy, we use the cloud formation templates to deploy. So it becomes a super simple approach to protect the AWS workloads and we protect a lot of them. Starting from easy to rds dynamodb document DB um, you know, the containers, the list just keeps going on. So it becomes a very natural extension for our customers to make it super simple to start using convert data protection for the w >>well the con vault stack is very robust. You have extremely mature stack. I want, I'm curious as to how this sort of came about and it had to be customer driven. I'm sure where your customers saying, hey, we're moving to the cloud, we had a lot of workloads in the cloud, we're calm vault customer. That intersection between calm vault and AWS customers. So again, I presume this was customer driven. but maybe you can give us a little insight and add some color to that. >>Everything in this collaboration has been customer driven. We were earlier talking about the multiple paths to chlorine vapor example and still might probably add more color from his own experience at our jones. But I'll bring it to reference Parsons who's a civil engineering leader. They started with the cloud first mandate saying we need to start moving all our backups to the cloud but we have wanted that bad actors might find it easy to go and access the backups edible is um, Conwell came together with the security features and com well brought in its own authorization controls and now we have moved more than 14 petabytes of backup data into the club and it's so robust that not even the backup administrator and go and touch the backups without multiple levels of authorization. Right. So the customer needs, whether it is from a security perspective performance perspective or in this case from a simplicity perspective is really what is driving this. And and the need came exactly like that. There are many customers who have no standardized on it because they want to find everything through the AWS marketplace. They want to use their existing, you know, the AWS contracts and also bring data strategy as part of that so that that's the real um, driver behind this. Um, Stephen and I hope actually announced some of the customers that I actively started using it. You know, many notable customers have been behind this uh, innovation, don't even, I don't know, I wanted to add more to that. >>I would just, I would, I would just add Dave, you know, look if I look back before I joined a W S seven years ago, I was the C I O at dow jones and I was leading a a fairly big cloud migration there over a number of years. And one of the impetus is for us moving to the cloud in the first place was when Hurricane Sandy hit, we had a real disaster recovery scenario in one of our New Jersey data centers um, and we had to act pretty quickly convert was, was part of that solution. And I remember very clearly Even back then, back in 2013, they're being options available to help us accelerate are moved to the cloud and just to reiterate some of the stuff that Rhonda was talking about consoles, done a great job over the last more than a decade, taking features from things like EBS and S three and EC two and some of our networking capabilities and embedding them directly into their services so that customers are able to more quickly move their backup and recovery workloads to the cloud. So each and every one of those features was as a result of, I'm sure combo working backwards from their customer needs just as we do at >>AWS >>and we're super excited to take that to the next level to give customers the option to then also by that right on their AWS invoice on AWS marketplace. >>Yeah, I mean, we're gonna have to leave it there steven, you've mentioned several times the sort of the early days of back then we were talking about gigabytes and terabytes and now we're talking about petabytes and beyond. Guys. Thanks so much. I really appreciate your time and sharing the news with us. >>Dave. Thanks for having us. >>All right. Keep it right there more from combat connections. 21. You're watching the >>cube. Mm hmm.

>>Hello everyone Welcome to the cubes coverage of cubic on cloud native come here in person in L A 2021. I'm john ferrier, host of the Cuban Dave Nicholson host cloud host for the cube and of course former host of the cube steve minutemen. Now at red hat stew, we do our normal keynote reviews. We had to have you come back first while hazard and red hat >>john it's phenomenal. Great to see you nice to have Dave be on the program here too. It's been awesome. So yeah, a year and a day since I joined Red hat and uh, I do miss you guys always enjoyed doing the interviews in the cube. But you know, we're still in the community and still interacting lots, >>but we love you too. And Davis, your new replacement and covering the cloud angles. He's gonna bring little stew mo jokes of the interview but still, we've always done the wrap up has always been our favorite interviews to do an analysis of the keynote because let's face it, that's where all the action is. Of course we bring the commentary, but this year it's important because it's the first time we've had an event in two years too. So a lot of people, you know, aren't saying this on camera a lot, but they're kind of nervous. They're worried they're weirded out. We're back in person again. What do I feel? I haven't seen people, I've been working with people online. This is the top story. >>Yeah, john I thought they did a really good job in the keynote this morning. Normally, I mean this community in general is good with inclusion. Part of that inclusion is hey, what are you comfortable with if your remote? We still love you and it's okay. And if you're here in person, you might see there's wrist bands of green, yellow, red as in like, hey, you okay with a handshake. You want to do there or stay the f away from me because I'm not really that comfortable yet being here and it's whatever you're comfortable with. That's okay. >>I think the inclusion and the whole respect for the individual code of conduct, C N C. F and limits Foundation has been on the front end of all those trends. I love how they're taking it to a whole nother level. David, I want to get your take because now with multi cloud, we heard the same message over and over again that hey, open winds, okay. Open winds and still changing fast. What's your take? >>Open absolutely wins. It's uh, it's the present. It's the future. I know in some of the conversations we've had with folks looking back over the last seven years, a lot of things have changed. Um, whenever I think of open source anything, I go back to the foundations of Lennox and I remember a time when you had to reboot a Linux server to re scan a scuzzy bus to add a new storage device and we all sort of put our penguin hats on and kind of ignored that for a while. And uh, and, and as things are developed, we keep coming into these new situations. Multi cluster management was a big, big point of conversation in the keynote today. It's fascinating when you start thinking about something that was once sort of a back room science experiment. Absolutely. It's the center of the enterprise now from a software >>from an open tour standpoint security has been one of those front and center things. One of the day, zero events that got a lot of buzz coming at the beginning of the week was secure supply chain. So with the Solar Wind act going in there, you know, we remember cloud, wait, can I trust it with the security? Open source right now. Open source and security go together. Open source and the security in the cloud all go together. So you know that that wave of open source, obviously one of the things that brought me to red hat, I'd had a couple of decades, you know, working within the enterprise and open source and that that adoption curve which went through a few bumps in the road over time and it took time. But today, I mean open sources have given this show in this ecosystem are such proof >>points of a couple things. I noticed one, I want to do a shout out for the folks who put a nice tribute for dan Kaminsky who has passed away and we miss him. We saw on the Cube 2019, I believe he's on the Cube that year with Adam on big influence, but the inclusiveness do and the community is changing. I think security has changed a lot and I want to get your guys take on this. Security has forced a lot of things happen faster data, open data. Okay. And kubernetes to get hardened faster stew. I know your team's working on it. We know what Azure and amazon is working on it. What do you guys think about how security's been forcing the advances in kubernetes and making that stable? >>Yeah. So john security, you know, is job one, it is everyone's responsibility. We talk about it from a container and kubernetes standpoint. We think we have a relatively good handle on what's happening in the kubernetes space red hat, we made an acquisition earlier this year of stack rocks, which was one of the leading kubernetes native security pieces. But you know, john we know security isn't just a moat anymore in a wall that you put up every single piece. You need to think about it. Um, I've got a person from the stack rocks acquisition actually on my team now and have told him like hey, you need to cross train all of us. We need to understand this more from a marketing standpoint, we need to talk about it from a developer standpoint. We need to have consideration of it. It's no longer, hey, it works okay on my machine. Come on, It needs to go to production. We all know this shift left is something we've been talking about for many years. So yes, security, security, security, we cannot overemphasize how important is um, you know, when it comes to cooper, I think, you know, were relatively mature, we're crossing the chasm, the adoption numbers are there, so it's not an impediment anymore. >>It's totally next level. I don't agree with this too. David, get your thoughts on this whole adoption um, roadmap that put it together, one of the working groups that we interviewed has got that kind of navigate, kinda like trailheads for salesforce, but that speaks to the adoption by mainstream enterprises, not the hard core, >>you know, >>us devops guys, but like it goes into mainstream main main street enterprise had I. T. Department and security groups there, like we got a program faster. How do you see the cloud guys in this ecosystem competing and making that go faster. >>So it's been interesting over the last decade or more often, technology has been ahead of people's comfort level with that technology for obvious reasons, it's not just something went wrong, it's something went wrong. I lost my job. Really, really bad things happened. So we tend to be conservative. Rightfully so in the sometimes there are these seminal moments where a shift happens go back sort of analogous go back to a time when people's main concern with VM ware was how can I get support from Microsoft and all of a sudden it went from that within weeks to how can I deploy this in my enterprise very, very quickly. And I'm fascinated by this concept of locking down the supply chain of code, uh sort of analogous to https, secure, http. It's the idea of making sure that these blocks of code are validated and secure as they get implemented. You mentioned, you mentioned things like cluster and pad's security and infrastructure security. >>Well, David, you brought up a really good point. So get off is the instance creation of that. How can I have my infrastructure as code? How can I make sure that I don't have drift? It's because I could just, it'll live and get hub and therefore it's version controlled. If I try to do something, it will validate that it's there and keep me on version because we know john we talked about it for years on the cube, we've gone beyond human scale if I don't build automation into it, if I don't have the guard rails in place because humans will mess things up so we need to make sure that we have the processes and the automation in place and kubernetes was built for that automation at its core, putting in, we've seen get up the Argosy, D was only went graduated, you know, the one dato was supported as coupon europe. Earlier this year, we already had a number of our customers deploying it using it. Talking publicly >>about it too. I want to get the kid apps angle and that's a good call out there and, and mainly because when we were on the cute, when you work, you post with with us, we were always cheerleading for Cuban. It we love because we've been here every single coupon. We were one saying this is gonna be big trust us and it is, it happens to so, but now we've been kind of, we don't have to sell it anymore. We don't, I mean not that we're selling it, but like we don't have to be a proponent of something we knew was going to happen, it happened. You're now work for a vendor red hat you talk to customers. What is that next level conversation look like now that they know it's real, they have to do it. How is the tops and then modern applications development, changing. What are your observations? Can you share with us from a redhead perspective as someone who's talking to customers, you know, what does real look like? >>Yeah. So get off is a great example of that. So, you know, certain of our government agencies that we work with, you know, obviously very secured about, you know, we want zero trust who do we put in charge of things. So if they can have, you know that that source of truth and know that that is maintained and lockdown and not await some admin is gonna mess something up on us either maliciously or oops, by accident or anything in between. That's why they were pushing that adoption of that kind of technology. So absolutely they, for the most part john they don't want to have to think about the infrastructure piece anymore. What if developers want the old past days was I want to be able to, you know, write once deploy anywhere, live anywhere, containers helps that a little bit. We even have in the container space. Now you can, you can use a service deployment model with Okay. Natives, the big open source project that, you know, VM ware ourselves are working on google's involved in it. So, you know, having us be able to focus on the business and not, you know, running the plumbing anymore. >>That's exactly, that's exactly, that's what we're so psyched for. Okay guys, let's wrap this up and and review the keynote day will start with you. What do you think of the keynote? What were the highlights? What do you take away from the taste keynote? >>So you touched on a couple of things, uh inclusion from all sorts of different angles. Really impressive. This sort of easing back into the world of being face to face. I think they're doing a fantastic job at that. The thing that struck me was something I mentioned earlier. Um moving into multi cluster management in a way that really speaks to enterprise deployments and the complexity of enterprise deployments moving forward? It's not just, it's not just, I'm a developer, I'm using resources in the cloud. I'm doing things this way, the rest of the enterprises doing it a legacy way. It's really an acknowledgement that these things are coming together increasingly. That's what really struck me >>to do. What's your takeaway from the end? >>So there's been a discussion in the industry, you know, what do the next million cloud customers look like we've crossed the chasm on kubernetes. One of the things they announced the keynote is they have a new associate level certification because I tell you before the keynote, I stopped by the breakfast area, saturday table, talk to a couple people. One guy was like, hey, I'm been on amazon for a bunch of years, but I'm a kubernetes newbie, I'm here to learn about that. It's not the same person that five years ago was like, I'm gonna grab all these projects and pull them down from getting, build my stack and you know, have a platform team to manage it from a red hat standpoint, we're delivering our biggest growth areas in cloud services where hey, I've got an SRE team, they can manage all that because can you do it? Sure you got people maybe you'll hire him, but wouldn't you rather have them work on, you know, that security initiative or that new application or some of these pieces, you know, what can you shift to your vendor? What can you offload from your team because we know the only constant is that things are gonna there's gonna be gonna be new pieces and I don't want to have to look at, oh there's another 20 new projects and how does that fit? Can I have a partner or consultant in sc that can help me integrate that into my environment when it makes sense for me because otherwise, oh my God, cloud, So much innovation. How do I grasp what I want? >>Great stuff guys, I would just say my summary is that okay? I'm excited this community has broken through the pandemic and survived and thrived people were working together during the pandemic. It's like a V. I. P. Event here. So that my keynote epiphany was this is like the who's who some big players are here. I saw Bill Vaz from amazon on the on the ground floor on monday night, He's number two at a W. S. I saw some top Vcs here. Microsoft IBM red hat the whole way tracks back. Whole track is back and it's a hybrid event. So I think we're here for the long haul with hybrid events where you can see a lot more in person, V. I. P. Like vibe people are doing deals. It feels alive too and it's all open. So it's all cool. And again, the team at C. N. C. F. They do an exceptional job of inclusion and making people feel safe and cool. So, great job. Thanks for coming on. I appreciate it. Good stuff. Okay. The keynote review from the cube Stupid Man shot for Dave Nicholson. Thanks for watching >>mm mm mm.

>>Hello. And we're here at the cube startup showcase made possible by a Ws. Thanks so much for joining us today. You know when Jim McDaid Ghani was formulating her ideas around data mesh, She wasn't the only one thinking about decentralized data architecture. Hello, Fresh was going into hyper growth mode and realized that in order to support its scale, it needed to rethink how it thought about data. Like many companies that started in the early part of last decade, Hello Fresh relied on a monolithic data architecture and the internal team. It had concerns about its ability to support continued innovation at high velocity. The company's data team began to think about the future and work backwards from a target architecture which possessed many principles of so called data mesh even though they didn't use that term. Specifically, the company is a strong example of an early but practical pioneer of data mission. Now there are many practitioners and stakeholders involved in evolving the company's data architecture, many of whom are listed here on this on the slide to are highlighted in red are joining us today, we're really excited to welcome into the cube Clements cheese, the Global Senior Director for Data at Hello Fresh and christoph Nevada who's the Global Senior Director of data also, of course. Hello Fresh folks. Welcome. Thanks so much for making some time today and sharing your story. >>Thank you very much. Hey >>steve. All right, let's start with Hello Fresh. You guys are number one in the world in your field, you deliver hundreds of millions of meals each year to many, many millions of people around the globe. You're scaling christoph. Tell us a little bit more about your company and its vision. >>Yeah. Should I start or Clements maybe maybe take over the first piece because Clements has actually been a longer trajectory yet have a fresh. >>Yeah go ahead. Climate change. I mean yes about approximately six years ago I joined handle fresh and I didn't think about the startup I was joining would eventually I. P. O. And just two years later and the freshman public and approximately three years and 10 months after. Hello fresh was listed on the German stock exchange which was just last week. Hello Fresh was included in the Ducks Germany's leading stock market index and debt to mind a great great milestone and I'm really looking forward and I'm very excited for the future for the future for head of fashion. All our data. Um the vision that we have is to become the world's leading food solution group and there's a lot of attractive opportunities. So recently we did lounge and expand Norway. This was in july and earlier this year we launched the U. S. Brand green >>chef in the U. K. As >>well. We're committed to launch continuously different geographies in the next coming years and have a strong pipe ahead of us with the acquisition of ready to eat companies like factor in the U. S. And the planned acquisition of you foods in Australia. We're diversifying our offer now reaching even more and more untapped customer segments and increase our total addressable market. So by offering customers and growing range of different alternatives to shop food and consumer meals. We are charging towards this vision and the school to become the world's leading integrated food solutions group. >>Love it. You guys are on a rocket ship, you're really transforming the industry and as you expand your tam it brings us to sort of the data as a as a core part of that strategy. So maybe you guys could talk a little bit about your journey as a company specifically as it relates to your data journey. You began as a start up. You had a basic architecture like everyone. You made extensive use of spreadsheets. You built a Hadoop based system that started to grow and when the company I. P. O. You really started to explode. So maybe describe that journey from a data perspective. >>Yes they saw Hello fresh by 2015 approximately had evolved what amount of classical centralized management set up. So we grew very organically over the years and there were a lot of very smart people around the globe. Really building the company and building our infrastructure. Um This also means that there were a small number of internal and external sources. Data sources and a centralized the I team with a number of people producing different reports, different dashboards and products for our executives for example of our different operations teams, christian company's performance and knowledge was transferred um just via talking to each other face to face conversations and the people in the data where's team were considered as the data wizard or as the E. T. L. Wizard. Very classical challenges. And those et al. Reserves indicated the kind of like a silent knowledge of data management. Right? Um so a central data whereas team then was responsible for different type of verticals and different domains, different geographies and all this setup gave us to the beginning the flexibility to grow fast as a company in 2015 >>christoph anything that might add to that. >>Yes. Um Not expected to that one but as as clement says it right, this was kind of set up that actually work for us quite a while. And then in 2017 when L. A. Freshman public, the company also grew rapidly and just to give you an idea how that looked like. As was that the tech department self actually increased from about 40 people to almost 300 engineers And the same way as a business units as Clemens has described, also grew sustainable, sustainably. So we continue to launch hello fresh and new countries launching brands like every plate and also acquired other brands like much of a factor and with that grows also from a data perspective the number of data requests that centrally we're getting become more and more and more and also more and more complex. So that for the team meant that they had a fairly high mental load. So they had to achieve a very or basically get a very deep understanding about the business. And also suffered a lot from this context switching back and forth, essentially there to prioritize across our product request from our physical product, digital product from the physical from sorry, from the marketing perspective and also from the central reporting uh teams. And in a nutshell this was very hard for these people. And this that also to a situation that, let's say the solution that we have became not really optimal. So in a nutshell, the central function became a bottleneck and slowdown of all the innovation of the company. >>It's a classic case, isn't it? I mean Clements, you see you see the central team becomes a bottleneck and so the lines of business, the marketing team salesman's okay, we're going to take things into our own hands. And then of course I I. T. And the technical team is called in later to clean up the mess. Uh maybe, I mean was that maybe I'm overstating it, but that's a common situation, isn't it? >>Yeah. Uh This is what exactly happened. Right. So um we had a bottleneck, we have the central teams, there was always a little of tension um analytics teams then started in this business domains like marketing, trade chain, finance, HR and so on. Started really to build their own data solutions at some point you have to get the ball rolling right and then continue the trajectory um which means then that the data pipelines didn't meet the engineering standards. And um there was an increased need for maintenance and support from central teams. Hence over time the knowledge about those pipelines and how to maintain a particular uh infrastructure for example left the company such that most of those data assets and data sets are turned into a huge step with decreasing data quality um also decrease the lack of trust, decreasing transparency. And this was increasing challenge where majority of time was spent in meeting rooms to align on on data quality for example. >>Yeah. And and the point you were making christoph about context switching and this is this is a point that Jemaah makes quite often is we've we've we've contextualized are operational systems like our sales systems, our marketing system but not our our data system. So you're asking the data team, Okay. Be an expert in sales, be an expert in marketing, be an expert in logistics, be an expert in supply chain and it start stop, start, stop, it's a paper cut environment and it's just not as productive. But but on the flip side of that is when you think about a centralized organization you think, hey this is going to be a very efficient way, a cross functional team to support the organization but it's not necessarily the highest velocity, most effective organizational structure. >>Yeah, so so I agree with that. Is that up to a certain scale, a centralized function has a lot of advantages, right? That's clear for everyone which would go to some kind of expert team. However, if you see that you actually would like to accelerate that and specific and this hyper growth, right, you wanna actually have autonomy and certain teams and move the teams or let's say the data to the experts in these teams and this, as you have mentioned, right, that increases mental load and you can either internally start splitting your team into a different kind of sub teams focusing on different areas. However, that is then again, just adding another peace where actually collaboration needs to happen busy external sees, so why not bridging that gap immediately and actually move these teams and to end into into the function themselves. So maybe just to continue what, what was Clements was saying and this is actually where over. So Clements, my journey started to become one joint journey. So Clements was coming actually from one of these teams to build their own solutions. I was basically having the platform team called database housed in these days and in 2019 where basically the situation become more and more serious, I would say so more and more people have recognized that this model doesn't really scale In 2019, basically the leadership of the company came together and I identified data as a key strategic asset and what we mean by that, that if we leverage data in a proper way, it gives us a unique competitive advantage which could help us to, to support and actually fully automated our decision making process across the entire value chain. So what we're, what we're trying to do now or what we should be aiming for is that Hello, Fresh is able to build data products that have a purpose. We're moving away from the idea. Data is just a by problem products, we have a purpose why we would like to collect this data. There's a clear business need behind that. And because it's so important to for the company as a business, we also want to provide them as a trust versi asset to the rest of the organization. We say there's the best customer experience, but at least in a way that users can easily discover, understand and security access high quality data. >>Yeah, so and and and Clements, when you c J Maxx writing, you see, you know, she has the four pillars and and the principles as practitioners you look at that say, okay, hey, that's pretty good thinking and then now we have to apply it and that's and that's where the devil meets the details. So it's the four, you know, the decentralized data ownership data as a product, which we'll talk about a little bit self serve, which you guys have spent a lot of time on inclement your wheelhouse which is which is governance and a Federated governance model. And it's almost like if you if you achieve the first two then you have to solve for the second to it almost creates a new challenges but maybe you could talk about that a little bit as to how it relates to Hello fresh. >>Yes. So christophe mentioned that we identified economic challenge beforehand and for how can we actually decentralized and actually empower the different colleagues of ours. This was more a we realized that it was more an organizational or a cultural change and this is something that somebody also mentioned I think thought words mentioned one of the white papers, it's more of a organizational or cultural impact and we kicked off a um faced reorganization or different phases we're currently and um in the middle of still but we kicked off different phases of organizational reconstruct oring reorganization, try unlock this data at scale. And the idea was really moving away from um ever growing complex matrix organizations or matrix setups and split between two different things. One is the value creation. So basically when people ask the question, what can we actually do, what shall we do? This is value creation and how, which is capability building and both are equal in authority. This actually then creates a high urge and collaboration and this collaboration breaks up the different silos that were built and of course this also includes different needs of stuffing forward teams stuffing with more, let's say data scientists or data engineers, data professionals into those business domains and hence also more capability building. Um Okay, >>go ahead. Sorry. >>So back to Tzemach did johnny. So we the idea also Then crossed over when she published her papers in May 2019 and we thought well The four colors that she described um we're around decentralized data ownership, product data as a product mindset, we have a self service infrastructure and as you mentioned, Federated confidential governance. And this suited very much with our thinking at that point of time to reorganize the different teams and this then leads to a not only organisational restructure but also in completely new approach of how we need to manage data, show data. >>Got it. Okay, so your business is is exploding. Your data team will have to become domain experts in too many areas, constantly contact switching as we said, people started to take things into their own hands. So again we said classic story but but you didn't let it get out of control and that's important. So we actually have a picture of kind of where you're going today and it's evolved into this Pat, if you could bring up the picture with the the elephant here we go. So I would talk a little bit about the architecture, doesn't show it here, the spreadsheet era but christoph maybe you can talk about that. It does show the Hadoop monolith which exists today. I think that's in a managed managed hosting service, but but you you preserve that piece of it, but if I understand it correctly, everything is evolving to the cloud, I think you're running a lot of this or all of it in A W. S. Uh you've got everybody's got their own data sources, uh you've got a data hub which I think is enabled by a master catalog for discovery and all this underlying technical infrastructure. That is really not the focus of this conversation today. But the key here, if I understand it correctly is these domains are autonomous and not only that this required technical thinking, but really supportive organizational mindset, which we're gonna talk about today. But christoph maybe you could address, you know, at a high level some of the architectural evolution that you guys went through. >>Yeah, sure. Yeah, maybe it's also a good summary about the entire history. So as you have mentioned, right, we started in the very beginning with the model is on the operation of playing right? Actually, it wasn't just one model is both to one for the back end and one for the for the front and and or analytical plane was essentially a couple of spreadsheets and I think there's nothing wrong with spreadsheets, right, allows you to store information, it allows you to transform data allows you to share this information. It allows you to visualize this data, but all the kind of that's not actually separating concern right? Everything in one tool. And this means that obviously not scalable, right? You reach the point where this kind of management set up in or data management of isn't one tool reached elements. So what we have started is we've created our data lake as we have seen here on Youtube. And this at the very beginning actually reflected very much our operational populace on top of that. We used impala is a data warehouse, but there was not really a distinction between borders, our data warehouse and borders our data like the impala was used as a kind of those as the kind of engine to create a warehouse and data like construct itself and this organic growth actually led to a situation as I think it's it's clear now that we had to centralized model is for all the domains that will really lose kimball modeling standards. There was no uniformity used actually build in house uh ways of building materialized use abuse that we have used for the presentation layer, there was a lot of duplication of effort and in the end essentially they were missing feedbacks, food, which helped us to to improve of what we are filled. So in the end, in the natural, as we have said, the lack of trust and that's basically what the starting point for us to understand. Okay, how can we move away and there are a lot of different things that you can discuss of apart from this organizational structure that we have said, okay, we have these three or four pillars from from Denmark. However, there's also the next extra question around how do we implement our talking about actual right, what are the implications on that level? And I think that is there's something that we are that we are currently still in progress. >>Got it. Okay, so I wonder if we could talk about switch gears a little bit and talk about the organizational and cultural challenges that you faced. What were those conversations like? Uh let's dig into that a little bit. I want to get into governance as well. >>The conversations on the cultural change. I mean yes, we went through a hyper growth for the last year since obviously there were a lot of new joiners, a lot of different, very, very smart people joining the company which then results that collaboration uh >>got a bit more difficult. Of course >>there are times and changes, you have different different artifacts that you were created um and documentation that were flying around. Um so we were we had to build the company from scratch right? Um Of course this then resulted always this tension which I described before, but the most important part here is that data has always been a very important factor at l a fresh and we collected >>more of this >>data and continued to improve use data to improve the different key areas of our business. >>Um even >>when organizational struggles, the central organizational struggles data somehow always helped us to go through this this kind of change. Right? Um in the end those decentralized teams in our local geography ease started with solutions that serve the business which was very very important otherwise wouldn't be at the place where we are today but they did by all late best practices and standards and I always used sport analogy Dave So like any sport, there are different rules and regulations that need to be followed. These rules are defined by calling the sports association and this is what you can think about data governance and compliance team. Now we add the players to it who need to follow those rules and bite by them. This is what we then called data management. Now we have the different players and professionals, they need to be trained and understand the strategy and it rules before they can play. And this is what I then called data literacy. So we realized that we need to focus on helping our teams to develop those capabilities and teach the standards for how work is being done to truly drive functional excellence in a different domains. And one of our mission of our data literacy program for example is to really empower >>every employee at hello >>fresh everyone to make the right data informs decisions by providing data education that scaled by royal Entry team. Then this can be different things, different things like including data capabilities, um, with the learning paths for example. Right? So help them to create and deploy data products connecting data producers and data consumers and create a common sense and more understanding of each other's dependencies, which is important, for example, S. S. L. O. State of contracts and etcetera. Um, people getting more of a sense of ownership and responsibility. Of course, we have to define what it means, what does ownership means? But the responsibility means. But we're teaching this to our colleagues via individual learning patterns and help them up skill to use. Also, there's shared infrastructure and those self self service applications and overall to summarize, we're still in this progress of of, of learning, we are still learning as well. So learning never stops the tele fish, but we are really trying this um, to make it as much fun as possible. And in the end we all know user behavior has changed through positive experience. Uh, so instead of having massive training programs over endless courses of workshops, um, leaving our new journalists and colleagues confused and overwhelmed. >>We're applying um, >>game ification, right? So split different levels of certification where our colleagues can access, have had access points, they can earn badges along the way, which then simplifies the process of learning and engagement of the users and this is what we see in surveys, for example, where our employees that your justification approach a lot and are even competing to collect Those learning path batteries to become the # one on the leader board. >>I love the game ification, we've seen it work so well and so many different industries, not the least of which is crypto so you've identified some of the process gaps uh that you, you saw it is gloss over them. Sometimes I say paved the cow path. You didn't try to force, in other words, a new architecture into the legacy processes. You really have to rethink your approach to data management. So what what did that entail? >>Um, to rethink the way of data management. 100%. So if I take the example of Revolution, Industrial Revolution or classical supply chain revolution, but just imagine that you have been riding a horse, for example, your whole life and suddenly you can operate a car or you suddenly receive just a complete new way of transporting assets from A to B. Um, so we needed to establish a new set of cross functional business processes to run faster, dry faster, um, more robustly and deliver data products which can be trusted and used by downstream processes and systems. Hence we had a subset of new standards and new procedures that would fall into the internal data governance and compliance sector with internal, I'm always referring to the data operations around new things like data catalog, how to identify >>ownership, >>how to change ownership, how to certify data assets, everything around classical software development, which we know apply to data. This this is similar to a new thinking, right? Um deployment, versioning, QA all the different things, ingestion policies, policing procedures, all the things that suffer. Development has been doing. We do it now with data as well. And in simple terms, it's a whole redesign of the supply chain of our data with new procedures and new processes and as a creation as management and as a consumption. >>So data has become kind of the new development kit. If you will um I want to shift gears and talk about the notion of data product and, and we have a slide uh that we pulled from your deck and I'd like to unpack it a little bit. Uh I'll just, if you can bring that up, I'll read it. A data product is a product whose primary objective is to leverage on data to solve customer problems where customers, both internal and external. So pretty straightforward. I know you've gone much deeper and you're thinking and into your organization, but how do you think about that And how do you determine for instance who owns what? How did you get everybody to agree? >>I can take that one. Um, maybe let me start with the data product. So I think um that's an ongoing debate. Right? And I think the debate itself is an important piece here, right? That visit the debate, you clarify what we actually mean by that product and what is actually the mindset. So I think just from a definition perspective, right? I think we find the common denominator that we say okay that our product is something which is important for the company has come to its value what you mean by that. Okay, it's it's a solution to a customer problem that delivers ideally maximum value to the business. And yes, it leverages the power of data and we have a couple of examples but it had a fresh year, the historical and classical ones around dashboards for example, to monitor or error rates but also more sophisticated ways for example to incorporate machine learning algorithms in our recipe recommendations. However, I think the important aspects of the data product is a there is an owner, right? There's someone accountable for making sure that the product that we are providing is actually served and is maintained and there are, there is someone who is making sure that this actually keeps the value of that problem thing combined with the idea of the proper documentation, like a product description, right that people understand how to use their bodies is about and related to that peace is the idea of it is a purpose. Right? You need to understand or ask ourselves, Okay, why does this thing exist does it provide the value that you think it does. That leads into a good understanding about the life cycle of the data product and life cycle what we mean? Okay from the beginning from the creation you need to have a good understanding, we need to collect feedback, we need to learn about that. We need to rework and actually finally also to think about okay benefits time to decommission piece. So overall, I think the core of the data product is product thinking 11 right that we start the point is the starting point needs to be the problem and not the solution and this is essentially what we have seen what was missing but brought us to this kind of data spaghetti that we have built there in in Russia, essentially we built at certain data assets, develop in isolation and continuously patch the solution just to fulfill these articles that we got and actually these aren't really understanding of the stakeholder needs and the interesting piece as a result in duplication of work and this is not just frustrating and probably not the most efficient way how the company should work. But also if I build the same that assets but slightly different assumption across the company and multiple teams that leads to data inconsistency and imagine the following too narrow you as a management for management perspective, you're asking basically a specific question and you get essentially from a couple of different teams, different kind of grass, different kind of data and numbers and in the end you do not know which ones to trust. So there's actually much more ambiguity and you do not know actually is a noise for times of observing or is it just actually is there actually a signal that I'm looking for? And the same is if I'm running in a B test right, I have a new future, I would like to understand what has it been the business impact of this feature. I run that specific source in an unfortunate scenario. Your production system is actually running on a different source. You see different numbers. What you've seen in a B test is actually not what you see then in production typical thing then is you're asking some analytics tend to actually do a deep dive to understand where the discrepancies are coming from. The worst case scenario. Again, there's a different kind of source. So in the end it's a pretty frustrating scenario and that's actually based of time of people that have to identify the root cause of this divergence. So in a nutshell, the highest degree of consistency is actually achieved that people are just reusing Dallas assets and also in the media talk that we have given right, we we start trying to establish this approach for a B testing. So we have a team but just providing or is kind of owning their target metric associated business teams and they're providing that as a product also to other services including the A B testing team, they'll be testing team can use this information defines an interface is okay I'm joining this information that the metadata of an experiment and in the end after the assignment after this data collection face, they can easily add a graph to the dashboard. Just group by the >>Beatles Hungarian. >>And we have seen that also in other companies. So it's not just a nice dream that we have right. I have actually worked in other companies where we worked on search and we established a complete KPI pipeline that was computing all this information. And this information was hosted by the team and it was used for everything A B test and deep dives and and regular reporting. So uh just one of the second the important piece now, why I'm coming back to that is that requires that we are treating this data as a product right? If you want to have multiple people using the things that I am owning and building, we have to provide this as a trust mercy asset and in a way that it's easy for people to discover and actually work with. >>Yeah. And coming back to that. So this is to me this is why I get so excited about data mesh because I really do think it's the right direction for organizations. When people hear data product they say well, what does that mean? Uh but then when you start to sort of define it as you did, it's it's using data to add value, that could be cutting costs, that could be generating revenue, it could be actually directly you're creating a product that you monetize, So it's sort of in the eyes of the beholder. But I think the other point that we've made is you made it earlier on to and again, context. So when you have a centralized data team and you have all these P NL managers a lot of times they'll question the data because they don't own it. They're like wait a minute. If they don't, if it doesn't agree with their agenda, they'll attack the data. But if they own the data then they're responsible for defending that and that is a mindset change, that's really important. Um And I'm curious uh is how you got to, you know, that ownership? Was it a was it a top down with somebody providing leadership? Was it more organic bottom up? Was it a sort of a combination? How do you decide who owned what in other words, you know, did you get, how did you get the business to take ownership of the data and what is owning? You know, the data actually mean? >>That's a very good question. Dave I think this is one of the pieces where I think we have a lot of learnings and basically if you ask me how we could start the feeling. I think that would be the first piece. Maybe we need to start to really think about how that should be approached if it stopped his ownership. Right? It means somehow that the team has a responsibility to host and self the data efforts to minimum acceptable standards. This minimum dependencies up and down string. The interesting piece has been looking backwards. What what's happening is that under that definition has actually process that we have to go through is not actually transferring ownership from the central team to the distributor teams. But actually most cases to establish ownership, I make this difference because saying we have to transfer ownership actually would erroneously suggests that the data set was owned before. But this platform team, yes, they had the capability to make the changes on data pipelines, but actually the analytics team, they're always the ones who had the business understands, you use cases and but no one actually, but it's actually expensive expected. So we had to go through this very lengthy process and establishing ownership. We have done that, as in the beginning, very naively. They have started, here's a document here, all the data assets, what is probably the nearest neighbor who can actually take care of that and then we we moved it over. But the problem here is that all these things is kind of technical debt, right? It's not really properly documented, pretty unstable. It was built in a very inconsistent over years and these people who have built this thing have already left the company. So there's actually not a nice thing that is that you want to see and people build up a certain resistance, e even if they have actually bought into this idea of domain ownership. So if you ask me these learnings, but what needs to happen as first, the company needs to really understand what our core business concept that they have, they need to have this mapping from. These are the core business concept that we have. These are the domain teams who are owning this concept and then actually link that to the to the assets and integrated better with both understanding how we can evolve actually, the data assets and new data build things new in the in this piece in the domain. But also how can we address reduction of technical death and stabilizing what we have already. >>Thank you for that christoph. So I want to turn a direction here and talk about governance and I know that's an area that's passionate, you're passionate about. Uh I pulled this slide from your deck, which I kind of messed up a little bit sorry for that, but but by the way, we're going to publish a link to the full video that you guys did. So we'll share that with folks. But it's one of the most challenging aspects of data mesh, if you're going to decentralize you, you quickly realize this could be the Wild West as we talked about all over again. So how are you approaching governance? There's a lot of items on this slide that are, you know, underscore the complexity, whether it's privacy, compliance etcetera. So, so how did you approach this? >>It's yeah, it's about connecting those dots. Right. So the aim of the data governance program is about the autonomy of every team was still ensuring that everybody has the right interoperability. So when we want to move from the Wild West riding horses to a civilised way of transport, um you can take the example of modern street traffic, like when all participants can manoeuvre independently and as long as they follow the same rules and standards, everybody can remain compatible with each other and understand and learn from each other so we can avoid car crashes. So when I go from country to country, I do understand what the street infrastructure means. How do I drive my car? I can also read the traffic lights in the different signals. Um, so likewise as a business and Hello Fresh, we do operate autonomously and consequently need to follow those external and internal rules and standards to set forth by the redistribution in which we operate so in order to prevent a car crash, we need to at least ensure compliance with regulations to account for society's and our customers increasing concern with data protection and privacy. So teaching and advocating this advantage, realizing this to everyone in the company um was a key community communication strategy and of course, I mean I mentioned data privacy external factors, the same goes for internal regulations and processes to help our colleagues to adapt to this very new environment. So when I mentioned before the new way of thinking the new way of um dealing and managing data, this of course implies that we need new processes and regulations for our colleagues as well. Um in a nutshell then this means the data governance provides a framework for managing our people the processes and technology and culture around our data traffic. And those components must come together in order to have this effective program providing at least a common denominator, especially critical for shared dataset, which we have across our different geographies managed and shared applications on shared infrastructure and applications and is then consumed by centralized processes um for example, master data, everything and all the metrics and KPI s which are also used for a central steering. Um it's a big change day. Right. And our ultimate goal is to have this noninvasive, Federated um ultimatum and computational governance and for that we can't just talk about it. We actually have to go deep and use case by use case and Qc buy PVC and generate learnings and learnings with the different teams. And this would be a classical approach of identifying the target structure, the target status, match it with the current status by identifying together with the business teams with the different domains have a risk assessment for example, to increase transparency because a lot of teams, they might not even know what kind of situation they might be. And this is where this training and this piece of illiteracy comes into place where we go in and trade based on the findings based on the most valuable use case um and based on that help our teams to do this change to increase um their capability just a little bit more and once they hand holding. But a lot of guidance >>can I kind of kind of trying to quickly David will allow me I mean there's there's a lot of governance piece but I think um that is important. And if you're talking about documentation for example, yes, we can go from team to team and tell these people how you have to document your data and data catalog or you have to establish data contracts and so on the force. But if you would like to build data products at scale following actual governance, we need to think about automation right. We need to think about a lot of things that we can learn from engineering before. And that starts with simple things like if we would like to build up trust in our data products, right, and actually want to apply the same rigor and the best practices that we know from engineering. There are things that we can do and we should probably think about what we can copy and one example might be. So the level of service level agreements, service level objectives. So that level indicators right, that represent on on an engineering level, right? If we're providing services there representing the promises we made to our customers or consumers, these are the internal objectives that help us to keep those promises. And actually these are the way of how we are tracking ourselves, how we are doing. And this is just one example of that thing. The Federated Governor governance comes into play right. In an ideal world, we should not just talk about data as a product but also data product. That's code that we say, okay, as most as much as possible. Right? Give the engineers the tool that they are familiar basis and actually not ask the product managers for example to document their data assets in the data catalog but make it part of the configuration. Have this as a, as a C D C I, a continuous delivery pipeline as we typically see another engineering task through and services we say, okay, there is configuration, we can think about pr I can think about data quality monitoring, we can think about um the ingestion data catalog and so on and forest, I think ideally in the data product will become of a certain templates that can be deployed and are actually rejected or verified at build time before we actually make them deploy them to production. >>Yeah, So it's like devoPS for data product um so I'm envisioning almost a three phase approach to governance and you kind of, it sounds like you're in early phases called phase zero where there's there's learning, there's literacy, there's training, education, there's kind of self governance and then there's some kind of oversight, some a lot of manual stuff going on and then you you're trying to process builders at this phase and then you codify it and then you can automate it. Is that fair? >>Yeah, I would rather think think about automation as early as possible in the way and yes, there needs to be certain rules but then actually start actually use case by use case. Is there anything that small piece that we can already automate? It's as possible. Roll that out and then actually extended step by step, >>is there a role though that adjudicates that? Is there a central Chief state officer who is responsible for making sure people are complying or is it how do you handle that? >>I mean from a from a from a platform perspective, yes, we have a centralized team to uh implement certain pieces they'll be saying are important and actually would like to implement. However, that is actually working very closely with the governance department. So it's Clements piece to understand and defy the policies that needs to be implemented. >>So Clements essentially it's it's your responsibility to make sure that the policy is being followed. And then as you were saying, christoph trying to compress the time to automation as fast as possible percent. >>So >>it's really it's uh >>what needs to be really clear that it's always a split effort, Right? So you can't just do one thing or the other thing, but everything really goes hand in hand because for the right automation for the right engineering tooling, we need to have the transparency first. Uh I mean code needs to be coded so we kind of need to operate on the same level with the right understanding. So there's actually two things that are important which is one its policies and guidelines, but not only that because more importantly or even well equally important to align with the end user and tech teams and engineering and really bridge between business value business teams and the engineering teams. >>Got it. So just a couple more questions because we gotta wrap I want to talk a little bit about the business outcome. I know it's hard to quantify and I'll talk about that in a moment but but major learnings, we've got some of the challenges that you cited. I'll just put them up here. We don't have to go detailed into this, but I just wanted to share with some folks. But my question, I mean this is the advice for your peers question if you had to do it differently if you had a do over or a Mulligan as we like to say for you golfers, what would you do differently? Yeah, >>I mean can we start with from a from the transformational challenge that understanding that it's also high load of cultural change. I think this is this is important that a particular communication strategy needs to be put into place and people really need to be um supported. Right? So it's not that we go in and say well we have to change towards data mesh but naturally it's in human nature, you know, we're kind of resistance to to change right? Her speech uncomfortable. So we need to take that away by training and by communicating um chris we're gonna add something to that >>and definitely I think the point that I have also made before right we need to acknowledge that data mesh is an architecture of scale, right? You're looking for something which is necessary by huge companies who are vulnerable, data productive scale. I mean Dave you mentioned it right, there are a lot of advantages to have a centralized team but at some point it may make sense to actually decentralized here and at this point right? If you think about data Mash, you have to recognize that you're not building something on a green field. And I think there's a big learning which is also reflected here on the slide is don't underestimate your baggage. It's typically you come to a point where the old model doesn't doesn't broke anymore and has had a fresh right? We lost our trust in our data and actually we have seen certain risks that we're slowing down our innovation so we triggered that this was triggering the need to actually change something. So this transition implies that you typically have a lot of technical debt accumulated over years and I think what we have learned is that potentially we have decentralized some assets to earlier, this is not actually taking into account the maturity of the team where we are actually distributed to and now we actually in the face of correcting pieces of that one. Right? But I think if you if you if you start from scratch you have to understand, okay, is are my team is actually ready for taking on this new uh, this news capabilities and you have to make sure that business decentralization, you build up these >>capabilities and the >>teams and as Clements has mentioned, right, make sure that you take the people on your journey. I think these are the pieces that also here, it comes with this knowledge gap, right? That we need to think about hiring and literacy the technical depth I just talked about and I think the last piece that I would add now which is not here on the flight deck is also from our perspective, we started on the analytical layer because that's kind of where things are exploding, right, this is the thing that people feel the pain but I think a lot of the efforts that we have started to actually modernize the current state uh, towards data product towards data Mash. We've understood that it always comes down basically to a proper shape of our operational plane and I think what needs to happen is is I think we got through a lot of pains but the learning here is this need to really be a commitment from the company that needs to happen and to act. >>I think that point that last point you made it so critical because I I hear a lot from the vendor community about how they're gonna make analytics better and that's that's not unimportant, but but through data product thinking and decentralized data organizations really have to operationalize in order to scale. So these decisions around data architecture an organization, their fundamental and lasting, it's not necessarily about an individual project are why they're gonna be project sub projects within this architecture. But the architectural decision itself is an organizational, its cultural and what's the best approach to support your business at scale. It really speaks to to to what you are, who you are as a company, how you operate and getting that right, as we've seen in the success of data driven driven companies is yields tremendous results. So I'll ask each of you to give give us your final thoughts and then we'll wrap maybe >>maybe it quickly, please. Yeah, maybe just just jumping on this piece that you have mentioned, right, the target architecture. If we talk about these pieces right, people often have this picture of mind like OK, there are different kind of stages, we have sources, we have actually ingestion layer, we have historical transformation presentation layer and then we're basically putting a lot of technology on top of that kind of our target architecture. However, I think what we really need to make sure is that we have these different kind of viewers, right? We need to understand what are actually the capabilities that we need in our new goals. How does it look and feel from the different kind of personas and experience view? And then finally, that should actually go to the to the target architecture from a technical perspective um maybe just to give an outlook but what we're what we're planning to do, how we want to move that forward. We have actually based on our strategy in the in the sense of we would like to increase that to maturity as a whole across the entire company and this is kind of a framework around the business strategy and it's breaking down into four pillars as well. People meaning the data, cultural, data literacy, data organizational structure and so on that. We're talking about governance as Clements has actually mentioned that, right, compliance, governance, data management and so on. You talk about technology and I think we could talk for hours for that one. It's around data platform, better science platform and then finally also about enablement through data, meaning we need to understand that a quality data accessibility and the science and data monetization. >>Great, thank you christophe clement. Once you bring us home give us your final thoughts. >>Can't can just agree with christoph that uh important is to understand what kind of maturity people have to understand what the maturity level, where the company where where people organization is and really understand what does kind of some kind of a change replies to that those four pillars for example, um what needs to be taken first and this is not very clear from the very first beginning of course them it's kind of like Greenfield you come up with must wins to come up with things that we really want to do out of theory and out of different white papers. Um only if you really start conducting the first initiatives you do understand. Okay, where we have to put the starts together and where do I missed out on one of those four different pillars? People, process technology and governance. Right? And then that kind of an integration. Doing step by step, small steps by small steps not boiling the ocean where you're capable ready to identify the gaps and see where either you can fill um the gaps are where you have to increase maturity first and train people or increase your text text, >>you know Hello Fresh is an excellent example of a company that is innovating. It was not born in Silicon Valley which I love. It's a global company. Uh and I gotta ask you guys, it seems like this is an amazing place to work you guys hiring? >>Yes, >>definitely. We do >>uh as many rights as was one of these aspects distributing. And actually we are hiring as an entire company specifically for data. I think there are a lot of open roles serious. Please visit or our page from better engineering, data, product management and Clemens has a lot of rules that you can speak about. But yes >>guys, thanks so much for sharing with the cube audience, your, your pioneers and we look forward to collaborations in the future to track progress and really want to thank you for your time. >>Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Dave >>thank you for watching the cubes startup showcase made possible by A W. S. This is Dave Volonte. We'll see you next time. >>Yeah.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 sponsored by Intel, AWS and our community partners. All right, you're continuing or we're continuing around the clock coverage and around the world coverage off a W s reinvent 2020 virtual conference This year, I'm guessing hundreds of thousands of folks are tuning in for coverage. And we have we have on the other end of the country a cube alarm. Stephen Towel, co founder and CTO of immunity. Stephen, welcome back to the show. >>Great. Great to be here. Thanks for having me again. I hope to match your enthusiasm. >>You know what is, uh, your co founder? I'm sure you could match the enthusiasm. Plus, we're talking about data governance. You You've been on the cute before, and you kind of laid the foundation for us last year. Talking about challenges around data access and data access control. I want to extend this conversation. I had a conversation with a CEO chief data officer a couple of years ago. He shared how his data analysts his the people that actually take the data and make business decisions or create outcomes to make business decisions spent 80% of their time wrangling the data just doing transformations. >>How's the >>Muda helping solve that problem? >>Yeah, great questions. So it's actually interesting. We're seeing a division of roles in these organizations where we have data engineering teams that are actually managing. Ah, lot of the prep work that goes into exposing data and releasing data analysts. Uh, and as part of their day to day job is to ensure that that data that they're released into the analyst is what they're allowed to see. Um and so we kind of see this, this problem of compliance getting in the way of analysts doing their own transformation. So it would be great if we didn't have to have a limited to just this small data engineering team to release the data. What we believe one of the rial issues behind that is that they are the ones that are trusted. They're the only ones that could see all the data in the clear. So it needs to be a very small subset of humans, so to speak, that can do this transformation work and release it. And that means that the data analyst downstream are hamstrung to a certain extent and bottlenecked by requesting these data engineers do some of this transformation work for them. Eso I think because, as you said, that's so critical to being able to analyze data, that bottleneck could could be a back breaker for organization. So we really think that to you need to tie transformation with compliance in order to streamline your analytics in your organization. >>So that has me curious. What does that actually look like? Because Because when I think of a data analyst, they're not always thinking about Well, who should have this data? They're trying to get the answer to the question Thio provide to the data engineer. What does that functionally looked like when that when you want to see that relationship of collaboration? >>Yeah, So we e think the beauty of a Muda and the beauty of governance solutions done right is that they should be invisible to the downstream analysts to a certain extent. So the data engineering team will takes on some requirements from their legal compliance. Seems such as you need a mask p I I or you need Thio. Hi. These kinds of rose from these kinds of analysts, depending on what the users doing. And we've just seen an explosion of different slices or different ways, you should dice up your data and what who's allowed to see what and not just about who they are, but what they're doing on DSO. You can kind of bake all these policies upfront on your data on a tool like Kamuda, and it will dynamically react based on who the analyst is and what they're doing to ensure that the right policies air being enforced. And we could do that in a way that when the analysts I mean, what we also see is just setting your policies on your data. Once up front, that's not the end of the story. Like a lot of people will tap themselves on the back and say, Look, we've got all our data protected appropriately, job done. But that's not really the case, because the analysts will start creating their own data products and they want to share that with other analysts. And so when you think about this, this becomes a very complex problem of okay. Before someone can share their data with anyone else, we need to understand what they were allowed to see eso being able to control the kind of this downstream flow of of transformations and feature engineering to ensure that Onley the right people, are seeing the things that they're allowed to see. But still, enabling analytics is really the challenges that that we saw that in Muda Thio, you know, help the the data teams create those initial policies at scale but also help the analytical teams build driven data products in a way that doesn't introduce data leaks. >>So as I think about the traditional ways in which we do this, we kind of, you know, take a data sad. Let's say, is the databases and we said, security rules etcetera on those data states. That's what you're painting to ISMM or of Dynamic. Has Muto approaching this problem from just a architectural direction? >>Yeah, great question. So I'm sure you've probably heard the term role based access control on, but it's been around forever where you basically aggregate your users in the roles, and then you build rules around those roles on gritty, much every legacy. Already, BMS manages data access this way. Um, what we're seeing now and I call it the private data era that we're now embarking on or have been embarking on for the past three years or so. Where consumers are more aware of their data, privacy and the needs they had their there's, you know, data regulations coming fast and furious with no end in sight. Um, we believe that this role based access control paradigm is just broken. We've got customers with thousands of roles that they're trying to manage Thio to, you know, slice up the data all the different ways that they need Thio. So instead, we we offer an accurate based access control solution and also policy based access control solution. We're. Instead, it's really about How do you dynamically enforced policy by separating who the user is from the policy that needs to be enforced and and having that execute at runtime? A good analogy to this is role based. Access control is like writing code without being able to use variables. You're writing the same block a code over and over again with slight changes based on the roll where actually based access control is, you're able to use variables and basically the policy gets decided at runtime based on who the user is and what they're doing. So >>that dynamic nature kind of lends itself to the public cloud. Were you seeing this applied in the world off a ws were here Reinvent so our customers using this with a W s >>So it all comes down to scalability so that the same reasons that used to separate storage from compute. You know, you get your storage in one place you could ephemera, lee, spin up, compute like EMR if you want. Um, you can use Athena against your storage in a server lis way that that kind of, um, freedom to choose whatever compute you want. Um, the same kind of concepts of apply with policy enforcement. You wanna separate your policy from your platform on that This private data era has has, you know, created this need just like you have to separate your compute from storage in the big data era. And this allows you to have a single plane of glass to enforce policy consistently, no matter what compute you're using or what a U s resource is you're using, um and so this gives our customers power to not only, um, you know, build the rules that they need to build and not have to do it uniquely her service in the U. S. But also proved to their legal and compliance teams that they're doing it correctly because, um, when when you do it this way, it really simplifies everything. And you have one place to go toe, understand how policies being enforced. And this really gives you the auditing and reporting around, um, be enforcement that you've been doing to put every one of these, that everything is being done correctly and that your data consumers can understand You know how your data is being protected. Their data is being protected. Um, and you could actually answer those questions when they come at you. >>So let's put this idea to the test a little bit. So I have the data engineer who kind of designs the security policy around the data or implements that policy using Kamuda Aziz dictated by the security and chief data officer of the organization. Then I have the analyst, and the analyst is just using the tools at their disposal. Let's say that one analyst wants to use AWS Lambda and another analysts wants to use our type database or analysis tools. You're telling me that Muda allows the flexibility for that analyst to use either tool within a W S. >>That's right, because we enforce policy at the data layer. Eso If you think about a Muda, it's really three layers policy authoring, which you touched on where those requirements get turned into real policies. Policy decision ing. So at query time we see who the user is, what they're doing on what policy has been defined to dynamically build that policy at run time and then enforcement, which is what you're getting at. The enforcement happens at the data layer, for example, we can enforce policies, natively and spark. So no matter how you're connecting to spark, that policy is going to get enforced appropriately. So we don't really care about what the clients Liz, because the enforcement is happening at the data or the compute layer is is a more accurate way todo to say it >>so. A practical reality off collaboration, especially around large data sets, is the ability to share data across organizations. How is immune hoping thio just make that barrier? Ah, little lower but ensuring security so that when I'm sharing data with, uh, analysts with within another firm. They're only seeing the data that they need to see, but we can effectively collaborate on those pieces of content. >>Yeah, I'm glad you asked this. I mean, this is like the, you know, the big finale, right? Like, this is what you get when you have this granularity on your own data ecosystem. It enables you to have that granularity now, when you want to share outside of your internal ecosystem. And so I think an important part about this is that when you think about governance, you can't necessarily have one God users so to speak, that has control over all tables and all policies. You really need segmentation of duty, where different parts of the organ hooking their own data build their own policies in a way where people can't step on each other and then this can expand this out. The third party data sharing where you can set different anonymous ation levels on your data when you're sharing an external the organization verse, if it's internal users and then someone else in your ord could share their data with you and then that also do that Third party. So it really enables and freeze these organizations Thio share with each other in ways that weren't possibly before. Because it happens in the day. The layer, um, these organizations can choose their own compute and still have the same policies being forced again. Going back to that consistency piece, um, it provides. Think of it is almost a authoritative way to share data in your organization. It doesn't have to be ad hoc. Oh, I have to share with this group over here. How should I do it? What policies should enforce. There's a single authoritative way to set policy and share your data. >>So the first thing that comes to my mind, especially when we give more power to the users, is when the auditors come and they say, You know what, Keith? I understand this is the policy, but prove it. How do we provide auditors with the evidence that you know, the we're implementing the policy that we designed and then two were ableto audit that policy? >>Yeah. Good question. So, um, I briefly spoke about this a little bit, but the when you author and define the policies in the Muda there immediately being enforced. So when you write something in our platform, um, it's not a glorified Wikipedia, right? It's actually turning those policies on and enforcing it at the data later. And because of that, any query that's coming through a Muda is going to be audited. But I think even more importantly, to be honest, we keep a history of how policy changes happening over time, too. So you could understand, you know, so and so changed the policy on this table versus other table, you know, got newly added, these people got dropped from it. So you get this rich history of not only who's touching what data and what data is important, but you're also getting a rich history off. Okay, how have we been treating this data from a policy perspective over time? How is it like what were my risk levels over the past year? With B six tables on? You can answer those kinds of questions as well. >>And then we're in the era of cloud. We expect to be able to consume these services via AP I via pay as you go type of thing. How is your relationship with AWS and how in the cutting. Ultimately, the customer. How do I consume a music? >>Yeah, so in Munich can pretty much be deployed anywhere. So obviously we're talking to us here. We have a SAS offering where you can spin up Muda pretrial and just be often running building policies and hooking up hooking our policy enforcement engine into your compute. Um, that runs in our, um you know, infrastructure. There's also a deployment model where you deploy immune it into your VPC s so it can run on your infrastructure. Behind your firewalls on DWI do not require any public Internet access at all for that to run. We don't do any kind of phone homing because, obviously, privacy company, we take this very seriously internally as well. We also have on premise deployments, um, again with zero connectivity air gapped environments. Eso. So we offer that kind of flexibility to our customers wherever they want immediate toe to be deployed. An important thing to remember their two is immediate. Does not actually store any data. We just store metadata and policy information. Um, so it's that also provides the customers some flexibility where if they want to use our SAS, they can simply go policy in there, and then the data still lives in their account. We're just kind of pushing policy down into that. Dynamically. >>So Stephen Towel co founder c t o of immunity. I don't think you have to worry about matching my energy level. I through some pretty tough questions at at you and you were ready there with all the answers. You wanna see more interesting conversations from around the world with founders, builders, AWS reinvent is all about builders and we're talking to the builders throughout this show. Visit us on the web. The Cube. You can engage with us on Twitter. Talk to you next episode off the Cube from AWS reinvent 2020.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube covering space and cybersecurity. Symposium 2020 hosted by Cal Poly >>Oven. Welcome back to the Space and Cyber Security Symposium. 2020 I'm John for your host with the Cuban silicon angle, along with Cal Poly, representing a great session here on industry success in developing space and cybersecurity. Resource is Got a great lineup. Brigadier General Steve Hotel, whose are also known as Bucky, is Call Sign director of Space Portfolio Defense Innovation Unit. Preston Miller, chief information security officer at JPL, NASA and Major General retired Clint Crozier, director of aerospace and satellite solutions at Amazon Web services, also known as a W s. Gentlemen, thank you for for joining me today. So the purpose of this session is to spend the next hour talking about the future of workforce talent. Um, skills needed and we're gonna dig into it. And Spaces is an exciting intersection of so many awesome disciplines. It's not just get a degree, go into a track ladder up and get promoted. Do those things. It's much different now. Love to get your perspectives, each of you will have an opening statement and we will start with the Brigadier General Steve Hotel. Right? >>Thank you very much. The Defense Innovation Unit was created in 2015 by then Secretary of Defense Ash Carter. To accomplish three things. One is to accelerate the adoption of commercial technology into the Department of Defense so that we can transform and keep our most relevant capabilities relevant. And also to build what we call now called the national Security Innovation Base, which is inclusive all the traditional defense companies, plus the commercial companies that may not necessarily work with focus exclusively on defense but could contribute to our national security and interesting ways. Um, this is such an exciting time Azul here from our other speakers about space on and I can't, uh I'm really excited to be here today to be able to share a little bit of our insight on the subject. >>Thank you very much. Precedent. Miller, Chief information security officer, Jet Propulsion Lab, NASA, Your opening statement. >>Hey, thank you for having me. I would like to start off by providing just a little bit of context of what brings us. Brings us together to talk about this exciting topic for space workforce. Had we've seen In recent years there's been there's been a trend towards expanding our space exploration and the space systems that offer the great things that we see in today's world like GPS. Um, but a lot of that has come with some Asian infrastructure and technology, and what we're seeing as we go towards our next generation expects of inspiration is that we now want to ensure that were secured on all levels. And there's an acknowledgement that our space systems are just a susceptible to cyber attacks as our terrestrial assistance. We've seen a recent space, uh, policy Directive five come out from our administration, that that details exactly how we should be looking at the cyber principle for our space systems, and we want to prevent. We want to prevent a few things as a result of that of these principles. Spoofing and jamming of our space systems are not authorized commands being sent to those space systems, lots of positive control of our space vehicles on lots of mission data. We also acknowledge that there's a couple of frameworks we wanna adopt across the board of our space systems levers and things like our nice miss cybersecurity frameworks. eso what has been a challenge in the past adopted somebody Cyber principles in space systems, where there simply has been a skill gap in a knowledge gap. We hire our space engineers to do a few things. Very well designed space systems, the ploy space systems and engineer space systems, often cybersecurity is seen as a after thought and certainly hasn't been a line item and in any budget for our spaces in racing. Uh, in the past in recent years, the dynamic started to change. We're now now integrating cyber principles at the onset of development of these life cycle of space. Systems were also taking a hard look of how we train the next generation of engineers to be both adequate. Space engineers, space system engineers and a cyber engineers, as a result to Mrs success on DWI, also are taking a hard look at What do we mean when we talk about holistic risk management for our space assistance, Traditionally risk management and missing insurance for space systems? I've really revolved around quality control, but now, in recent years we've started to adopt principles that takes cyber risk into account, So this is a really exciting topic for me. It's something that I'm fortunate to work with and live with every day. I'm really excited to get into this discussion with my other panel members. Thank you. >>You Preston. Great insight there. Looking forward. Thio chatting further. Um, Clint Closure with a W. S now heading up. A director of aerospace and satellite Solutions, formerly Major General, Your opening statement. >>Thanks, John. I really appreciate that introduction and really appreciate the opportunity to be here in the Space and Cybersecurity Symposium. And thanks to Cal Poly for putting it together, you know, I can't help, but as I think to Cal Poly there on the central California coast, San Luis Obispo, California I can't help but to think back in this park quickly. I spent two years of my life as a launch squadron commander at Vandenberg Air Force Base, about an hour south of Cal Poly launching rockets, putting satellites in orbit for the national intelligence community and so some really fond memories of the Central California coast. I couldn't agree more with the theme of our symposium this week. The space and cyber security we've all come to know over the last decade. How critical spaces to the world, whether it's for national security intelligence, whether it's whether communications, maritime, agriculture, development or a whole host of other things, economic and financial transactions. But I would make the case that I think most of your listeners would agree we won't have space without cybersecurity. In other words, if we can't guaranteed cybersecurity, all those benefits that we get from space may not be there. Preston in a moment ago that all the threats that have come across in the terrestrial world, whether it be hacking or malware or ransomware or are simple network attacks, we're seeing all those migrate to space to. And so it's a really important issue that we have to pay attention to. I also want to applaud Cow Pauling. They've got some really important initiatives. The conference here, in our particular panel, is about developing the next generation of space and cyber workers, and and Cal Poly has two important programs. One is the digital transformation hub, and the other is space data solutions, both of which, I'm happy to say, are in partnership with a W. S. But these were important programs where Cal Poly looks to try to develop the next generation of space and cyber leaders. And I would encourage you if you're interested in that toe. Look up the program because that could be very valuable is well, I'm relatively new to the AWS team and I'm really happy Thio team, as John you said recently retired from the U. S. Air Force and standing up the U. S. Space force. But the reason that I mentioned that as the director of the aerospace and satellite team is again it's in perfect harmony with the theme today. You know, we've recognized that space is critically important and that cyber security is critically important and that's been a W s vision as well. In fact, a W s understands how important the space domain is and coupled with the fact that AWS is well known that at a W s security is job zero and stolen a couple of those to fax A. W. S was looking to put together a team the aerospace and satellite team that focus solely and exclusively every single day on technical innovation in space and more security for the space domain through the cloud and our offerings there. So we're really excited to reimagine agree, envision what space networks and architectures could look like when they're born on the cloud. So that's important. You know, talk about workforce here in just a moment, but but I'll give you just a quick sneak. We at AWS have also recognized the gap in the projected workforce, as Preston mentioned, Um, depending on the projection that you look at, you know, most projections tell us that the demand for highly trained cyber cyber security cloud practitioners in the future outweighs what we think is going to be the supply. And so a ws has leaned into that in a number of ways that we're gonna talk about the next segment. I know. But with our workforce transformation, where we've tried to train free of charge not just a W s workers but more importantly, our customers workers. It s a W s we obsessed over the customer. And so we've provided free training toe over 7000 people this year alone toe bring their cloud security and cyber security skills up to where they will be able to fully leverage into the new workforce. So we're really happy about that too? I'm glad Preston raised SPD five space policy Directive five. I think it's gonna have a fundamental impact on the space and cyber industry. Uh, now full disclosure with that said, You know, I'm kind of a big fan of space policy directives, ESPN, Or was the space policy directive that directed to stand up of the U. S. Space Force and I spent the last 18 months of my life as the lead planner and architect for standing up the U. S. Space force. But with that said, I think when we look back a decade from now, we're going to see that s p d five will have as much of an impact in a positive way as I think SPD for on the stand up of the space Force have already done so. So I'll leave it there, but really look forward to the dialogue and discussion. >>Thank you, gentlemen. Clint, I just wanna say thank you for all your hard work and the team and the people who were involved in standing up Space force. Um, it is totally new. It's a game changer. It's modern, is needed. And there's benefits on potential challenges and opportunities that are gonna be there, so thank you very much for doing that. I personally am excited. I know a lot of people are excited for what the space force is today and what it could become. Thank you very much. >>Yeah, Thanks. >>Okay, So >>with >>that, let me give just jump in because, you know, as you're talking about space force and cybersecurity and you spend your time at Vanderburgh launching stuff into space, that's very technical. Is operation okay? I mean, it's complex in and of itself, but if you think about like, what's going on beyond in space is a lot of commercial aspect. So I'm thinking, you know, launching stuff into space on one side of my brain and the other side of brain, I'm thinking like air travel. You know, all the logistics and the rules of the road and air traffic control and all the communications and all the technology and policy and, you >>know, landing. >>So, Major General Clint, what's your take on this? Because this is not easy. It's not just one thing that speaks to the diversity of workforce needs. What's your reaction to that? >>Yeah. I mean, your observation is right on. We're seeing a real boom in the space and aerospace industry. For all the good reasons we talked about, we're recognizing all the value space from again economic prosperity to exploration to being ableto, you know, improve agriculture and in weather and all those sorts of things that we understand from space. So what I'm really excited about is we're seeing this this blossom of space companies that we sort of referred to his new space. You know, it used to be that really only large governments like the United States and a handful of others could operate in the space domain today and largely infused because of the technological innovation that have come with Cyber and Cyrus Space and even the cloud we're seeing more and more companies, capabilities, countries, all that have the ability, you know. Even a well funded university today can put a cube sat in orbit, and Cal Poly is working on some of those too, by the way, and so it's really expanded the number of people that benefits the activity in space and again, that's why it's so critically important because we become more and more reliant and we will become more and more reliant on those capabilities that we have to protect him. It's fundamental that we do. So, >>Bucky, I want you to weigh in on this because actually, you you've flown. Uh, I got a call sign which I love interviewing people. Anyone who's a call sign is cool in my book. So, Bucky, I want you to react to that because that's outside of the technology, you know, flying in space. There's >>no >>rule. I mean, is there like a rules? I mean, what's the rules of the road? I mean, state of the right. I mean, what I mean, what what's going? What's gonna have toe happen? Okay, just logistically. >>Well, this is very important because, uh and I've I've had access thio information space derived information for most of my flying career. But the amount of information that we need operate effectively in the 21st century is much greater than Thanet has been in the past. Let me describe the environment s so you can appreciate a little bit more what our challenges are. Where, from a space perspective, we're going to see a new exponential increase in the number of systems that could be satellites. Uh, users and applications, right? And so eso we're going we're growing rapidly into an environment where it's no longer practical to just simply evolved or operate on a perimeter security model. We and with this and as I was brought up previously, we're gonna try to bring in MAWR commercial capabilities. There is a tremendous benefit with increasing the diversity of sources of information. We use it right now. The military relies very heavily on commercial SAT com. We have our military capabilities, but the commercial capabilities give us capacity that we need and we can. We can vary that over time. The same will be true for remote sensing for other broadband communications capabilities on doing other interesting effects. Also, in the modern era, we doom or operations with our friends and allies, our regional partners all around the world, in order to really improve our interoperability and have rapid exchange of information, commercial information, sources and capabilities provides the best means of doing that. So that so that the imperative is very important and what all this describes if you want to put one word on it. ISS, we're involving into ah hybrid space architectures where it's gonna be imperative that we protect the integrity of information and the cyber security of the network for the things most important to us from a national security standpoint. But we have to have the rules that that allows us to freely exchange information rapidly and in a way that that we can guarantee that the right users are getting the right information at the right. >>We're gonna come back to that on the skill set and opportunities for people driving. That's just looking. There's so much opportunity. Preston, I want you to react to this. I interviewed General Keith Alexander last year. He formerly ran Cyber Command. Um, now he's building Cyber Security Technologies, and his whole thesis is you have to share. So the question is, how do you share and lock stuff down at the same time when you have ah, multi sided marketplace in space? You know, suppliers, users, systems. This is a huge security challenge. What's your reaction to this? Because we're intersecting all these things space and cybersecurity. It's just not easy. What's your reaction? >>Absolutely, Absolutely. And what I would say in response to that first would be that security really needs to be baked into the onset of how we develop and implement and deploy our space systems. Um, there's there's always going to be the need to collect and share data across multiple entities, particularly when we're changing scientific data with our mission partners. Eso with that necessitates that we have a security view from the onset, right? We have a system spaces, and they're designed to share information across the world. How do we make sure that those, uh, those other those communication channels so secure, free from interception free from disruption? So they're really done? That necessitates of our space leaders in our cyber leaders to be joining the hip about how to secure our space systems, and the communications there in Clinton brought up a really good point of. And then I'm gonna elaborate on a little bit, just toe invite a little bit more context and talk about some the complexities and challenges we face with this advent of new space and and all of our great commercial partners coming into therefore way, that's going to present a very significant supply chain risk management problems that we have to get our hands around as well. But we have these manufacturers developing these highly specialized components for the space instruments, Um, that as it stands right now, it's very little oversight And how those things air produced, manufactured, put into the space systems communication channels that they use ports protocols that they use to communicate. And that's gonna be a significant challenge for us to get get our hands around. So again, cybersecurity being brought in. And the very onset of these development thes thes decisions in these life cycles was certainly put us in a best better position to secure that data in our in our space missions. >>Yeah, E just pick up on that. You don't mind? Preston made such a really good point there. But you have to bake security in up front, and you know there's a challenge and there's an opportunity, you know, with a lot of our systems today. It was built in a pre cyber security environment, especially our government systems that were built, you know, in many cases 10 years ago, 15 years ago are still on orbit today, and we're thankful that they are. But as we look at this new environment and we understand the threats, if we bake cybersecurity in upfront weaken balance that open application versus the risk a long as we do it up front. And you know, that's one of the reasons that our company developed what we call govcloud, which is a secure cloud, that we use thio to manage data that our customers who want to do work with the federal government or other governments or the national security apparatus. They can operate in that space with the built in and baked in cybersecurity protocols. We have a secret region that both can handle secret and top secret information for the same reasons. But when you bake security into the upfront applications, that really allows you to balance that risk between making it available and accessible in sort of an open architecture way. But being sure that it's protected through things like ITAR certifications and fed ramp, uh, another ice T certifications that we have in place. So that's just a really important point. >>Let's stay high level for a man. You mentioned a little bit of those those govcloud, which made me think about you know, the tactical edge in the military analogy, but also with space similar theater. It's just another theater and you want to stand stuff up. Whether it's communications and have facilities, you gotta do it rapidly, and you gotta do it in a very agile, secure, I high availability secure way. So it's not the old waterfall planning. You gotta be fast is different. Cloud does things different? How do you talk to the young people out there, whether it's apparent with with kids in elementary and middle school to high school, college grad level or someone in the workforce? Because there are no previous jobs, that kind of map to the needs out there because you're talking about new skills, you could be an archaeologist and be the best cyber security guru on the planet. You don't have to have that. There's no degree for what, what we're talking about here. This >>is >>the big confusion around education. I mean, you gotta you like math and you could code you can Anything who wants to comment on that? Because I think this >>is the core issue. I'll say there are more and more programs growing around that educational need, and I could talk about a few things we're doing to, but I just wanna make an observation about what you just said about the need. And how do you get kids involved and interested? Interestingly, I think it's already happening, right. The good news. We're already developing that affinity. My four year old granddaughter can walk over, pick up my iPad, turn it on. Somehow she knows my account information, gets into my account, pulls up in application, starts playing a game. All before I really even realized she had my iPad. I mean, when when kids grow up on the cloud and in technology, it creates that natural proficiency. I think what we have to do is take that natural interest and give them the skill set the tools and capabilities that go with it so that we're managing, you know, the the interest with the technical skills. >>And also, like a fast I mean, just the the hackers are getting educated. Justus fast. Steve. I mean e mean Bucky. What do you do here? You CIt's the classic. Just keep chasing skills. I mean, there are new skills. What are some of those skills? >>Why would I amplify eloquent? Just said, First of all, the, uh, you know, cyber is one of those technology areas where commercial side not not the government is really kind of leading away and does a significant amount of research and development. Ah, billions of dollars are spent every year Thio to evolve new capabilities. And a lot of those companies are, you know, operated and and in some cases, led by folks in their early twenties. So the S O. This is definitely an era and a generation that is really poised in position. Well, uh, Thio take on this challenge. There's some unique aspects to space. Once we deploy a system, uh, it will be able to give me hard to service it, and we're developing capabilities now so that we could go up and and do system upgrades. But that's not a normal thing in space that just because the the technical means isn't there yet. So having software to find capabilities, I's gonna be really paramount being able to dio unique things. The cloud is huge. The cloud is centric to this or architectural, and it's kind of funny because d o d we joke because we just discovered the cloud, you know, a couple years ago. But the club has been around for a while and, uh, and it's going to give us scalability on and the growth potential for doing amazing things with a big Data Analytics. But as Preston said, it's all for not if if we can't trust the data that we receive. And so one of the concepts for future architectures is to evolve into a zero trust model where we trust nothing. We verify and authenticate everyone. And, uh, and that's that's probably a good, uh, point of departure as we look forward into our cybersecurity for space systems into the future. >>Block everyone. Preston. Your reaction to all this gaps, skills, What's needed. I mean it Z everyone's trying to squint through this >>absolutely. And I wanna want to shift gears a little bit and talk about the space agencies and organizations that are responsible for deploying these spaces into submission. So what is gonna take in this new era on, and what do we need from the workforce to be responsive to the challenges that we're seeing? First thing that comes to mind is creating a culture of security throughout aerospace right and ensuring that Azzawi mentioned before security isn't an afterthought. It's sort of baked into our models that we deploy and our rhetoric as well, right? And because again we hire our spaces in years to do it very highly. Specialized thing for a highly specialized, uh, it's topic. Our effort, if we start to incorporate rhetorically the importance of cybersecurity two missing success and missing assurance that's going to lend itself toe having more, more prepared on more capable system engineers that will be able to respond to the threats accordingly. Traditionally, what we see in organizational models it's that there's a cyber security team that's responsible for the for the whole kit kaboodle across the entire infrastructure, from enterprise systems to specialize, specialize, space systems and then a small pocket of spaces, years that that that are really there to perform their tasks on space systems. We really need to bridge that gap. We need to think about cybersecurity holistically, the skills that are necessary for your enterprise. I t security teams need to be the same skills that we need to look for for our system engineers on the flight side. So organizationally we need we need to address that issue and approach it, um todo responsive to the challenges we see our our space systems, >>new space, new culture, new skills. One of the things I want to bring up is looking for success formulas. You know, one of the things we've been seeing in the past 10 years of doing the Cube, which is, you know, we've been called the ESPN of Tech is that there's been kind of like a game ification. I want to. I don't wanna say sports because sports is different, but you're seeing robotics clubs pop up in some schools. It's like a varsity sport you're seeing, you know, twitch and you've got gamers out there, so you're seeing fun built into it. I think Cal Poly's got some challenges going on there, and then scholarships air behind it. So it's almost as if, you know, rather than going to a private sports training to get that scholarship, that never happens. There's so many more scholarship opportunities for are not scholarship, but just job opportunities and even scholarships we've covered as part of this conference. Uh, it's a whole new world of culture. It's much different than when I grew up, which was you know, you got math, science and English. You did >>it >>and you went into your track. Anyone want to comment on this new culture? Because I do believe that there is some new patterns emerging and some best practices anyone share any? >>Yeah, I do, because as you talked about robotics clubs and that sort of things, but those were great and I'm glad those air happening. And that's generating the interest, right? The whole gaming culture generating interest Robotic generates a lot of interest. Space right has captured the American in the world attention as well, with some recent NASA activities and all for the right reasons. But it's again, it's about taking that interested in providing the right skills along the way. So I'll tell you a couple of things. We're doing it a w s that we found success with. The first one is a program called A W s Academy. And this is where we have developed a cloud, uh, program a cloud certification. This is ah, cloud curriculum, if you will, and it's free and it's ready to teach. Our experts have developed this and we're ready to report it to a two year and four year colleges that they can use is part of the curriculum free of charge. And so we're seeing some real value there. And in fact, the governor's in Utah and Arizona recently adopted this program for their two year schools statewide again, where it's already to teach curriculum built by some of the best experts in the industry s so that we can try to get that skills to the people that are interested. We have another program called A W s educate, and this is for students to. But the idea behind this is we have 12 cracks and you can get up to 50 hours of free training that lead to A W s certification, that sort of thing. And then what's really interesting about that is all of our partners around the world that have tied into this program we manage what we call it ws educate Job board. And so if you have completed this educate program now, you can go to that job board and be linked directly with companies that want people with those skills we just helped you get. And it's a perfect match in a perfect marriage there. That one other piece real quickly that we're proud of is the aws Uh restart program. And that's where people who are unemployed, underemployed or transitioning can can go online. Self paced. We have over 500 courses they can take to try to develop those initial skills and get into the industry. And that's been very popular, too, So that those air a couple of things we're really trying to lean into >>anyone else want to react. Thio that question patterns success, best practices, new culture. >>I'd like Thio. The the wonderful thing about what you just touched on is problem solving, right, And there's some very, very good methodologies that are being taught in the universities and through programs like Hacking for Defense, which is sponsored by the National Security Innovation Network, a component of the I you where I work but the But whether you're using a lien methodologies or design school principals or any other method, the thing that's wonderful right now and not just, uh, where I work at the U. The Space force is doing this is well, but we're putting the problem out there for innovators to tackle, And so, rather than be prescriptive of the solutions that we want to procure, we want we want the best minds at all levels to be able to work on the problem. Uh, look at how they can leverage other commercial solutions infrastructure partnerships, uh, Thio to come up with a solution that we can that we can rapidly employ and scale. And if it's a dual use solution or whether it's, uh, civil military or or commercial, uh, in any of the other government solutions. Uh, that's really the best win for for the nation, because that commercial capability again allows us to scale globally and share those best practices with all of our friends and allies. People who share our values >>win win to this commercial. There's a business model potential financial benefits as well. Societal impact Preston. I want to come to you, JPL, NASA. I mean, you work in one of the most awesome places and you know, to me, you know, if you said to me, Hey, John, come working JP like I'm not smart enough to go there like I mean, like, it's a pretty It's intimidating, it might seem >>share folks out there, >>they can get there. I mean, it's you can get there if you have the right skills. I mean I'm just making that up. But, I mean, it is known to be super smart And is it attainable? So share your thoughts on this new culture because you could get the skills to get there. What's your take on all this >>s a bucket. Just missing something that really resonated with me, right? It's do it your love office. So if you put on the front engineer, the first thing you're gonna try to do is pick it apart. Be innovative, be creative and ways to solve that issue. And it has been really encouraging to me to see the ground welcome support an engagement that we've seen across our system. Engineers in space. I love space partners. A tackling the problem of cyber. Now that they know the West at risk on some of these cyber security threats that that they're facing with our space systems, they definitely want to be involved. They want to take the lead. They want to figure things out. They wanna be innovative and creative in that problem solving eso jpl We're doing a few things. Thio Raise the awareness Onda create a culture of security. Andi also create cyber advocates, cybersecurity advocates across our space engineers. We host events like hacked the lad, for example, and forgive me. Take a pause to think about the worst case scenarios that could that could result from that. But it certainly invites a culture of creative problem solving. Um, this is something that that kids really enjoy that are system engineers really enjoyed being a part off. Um, it's something that's new refreshing to them. Eso we were doing things like hosting a monthly cybersecurity advocacy group. When we talk about some of the cyber landscape of our space systems and invite our engineers into the conversation, we do outweighs programs specifically designed to to capture, um, our young folks, uh, young engineers to deceive. They would be interested and show them what this type of security has to offer by ways of data Analytic, since the engineering and those have been really, really successful identifying and bringing in new talent to address the skill gaps. >>Steve, I want to ask you about the d. O. D. You mentioned some of the commercial things. How are you guys engaging the commercial to solve the space issue? Because, um, the normalization in the economy with GPS just seeing spaces impacts everybody's lives. We we know that, um, it's been talked about. And and there's many, many examples. How are you guys the D o. D. From a security standpoint and or just from an advancement innovation standpoint, engaging with commercials, commercial entities and commercial folks? >>Well, I'll throw. I'll throw a, uh, I'll throw ah, compliment to Clint because he did such an outstanding job. The space forces already oriented, uh, towards ah, commercial where it's appropriate and extending the arms. Leveraging the half works on the Space Enterprise Consortium and other tools that allow for the entrepreneurs in the space force Thio work with their counterparts in a commercial community. And you see this with the, uh, you know, leveraging space X away to, uh, small companies who are doing extraordinary things to help build space situational awareness and, uh, s So it's it's the people who make this all happen. And what we do at at the D. O. D level, uh, work at the Office of Secretary defense level is we wanna make sure that they have the right tools to be able to do that in a way that allows these commercial companies to work with in this case of a space force or with cyber command and ways that doesn't redefine that. The nature of the company we want we want We want commercial companies to have, ah, great experience working with d o d. And we want d o d toe have the similar experience working, working with a commercial community, and and we actually work interagency projects to So you're going to see, uh, General Raymond, uh, hey, just recently signed an agreement with the NASA Esa, you're gonna see interagency collaborations on space that will include commercial capabilities as well. So when we speak as one government were not. You know, we're one voice, and that's gonna be tremendous, because if you're a commercial company on you can you can develop a capability that solves problems across the entire space enterprise on the government side. How great is that, Right. That's a scaling. Your solution, gentlemen. Let >>me pick you back on that, if you don't mind. I'm really excited about that. I mentioned new space, and Bucky talked about that too. You know, I've been flying satellites for 30 years, and there was a time where you know the U. S. Government national security. We wouldn't let anybody else look at him. Touch him. Plug into, um, anything else, right. And that probably worked at the time. >>But >>the world has changed. And more >>importantly, >>um, there is commercial technology and capability available today, and there's no way the U. S government or national security that national Intel community can afford economically >>to >>fund all that investment solely anymore. We don't have the manpower to do it anymore. So we have this perfect marriage of a burgeoning industry that has capabilities and it has re sources. And it has trained manpower. And we are seeing whether it's US Space Force, whether it's the intelligence community, whether it's NASA, we're seeing that opened up to commercial providers more than I've ever seen in my career. And I can tell you the customers I work with every day in a W s. We're building an entire ecosystem now that they understand how they can plug in and participate in that, and we're just seeing growth. But more importantly, we're seeing advanced capability at cheaper cost because of that hybrid model. So that really is exciting. >>Preston. You know you mentioned earlier supply chain. I don't think I think you didn't use the word supply chain. Maybe you did. But you know about the components. Um, you start opening things up and and your what you said baking it in to the beginning, which is well known. Uh, premise. It's complicated. So take me through again, Like how this all gonna work securely because And what's needed for skill sets because, you know, you're gonna open. You got open source software, which again, that's open. We live in a free society in the United States of America, so we can't lock everything down. You got components that are gonna be built anywhere all around the world from vendors that aren't just a certified >>or maybe >>certified. Um, it's pretty crazy. So just weigh in on this key point because I think Clint has it right. And but that's gonna be solved. What's your view on this? >>Absolutely. And I think it really, really start a top, right? And if you look back, you know, across, um in this country, particularly, you take the financial industry, for example, when when that was a burgeoning industry, what had to happen to ensure that across the board. Um, you know, your your finances were protected these way. Implemented regulations from the top, right? Yeah. And same thing with our health care industry. We implemented regulations, and I believe that's the same approach we're gonna need to take with our space systems in our space >>industry >>without being too directive or prescriptive. Instance she ating a core set of principles across the board for our manufacturers of space instruments for deployment and development of space systems on for how space data and scientific data is passed back and forth. Eso really? We're gonna need to take this. Ah, holistic approach. Thio, how we address this issue with cyber security is not gonna be easy. It's gonna be very challenging, but we need to set the guard rails for exactly what goes into our space systems, how they operate and how they communicate. >>Alright, so let's tie this back to the theme, um, Steve and Clint, because this is all about workforce gaps, opportunities. Um, Steve, you mentioned software defined. You can't do break fix in space. You can't just send a technician up in the space to fix a component. You gotta be software defined. We're talking about holistic approach, about commercial talk about business model technology with software and policy. We need people to think through, like you know. What the hell are you gonna do here, right? Do you just noticed road at the side of the road to drive on? There's no rules of engagement. So what I'm seeing is certainly software Check. If you wanna have a job for the next millennial software policy who solves two problems, what does freedom looked like in space Congestion Contention and then, obviously, business model. Can you guys comment on these three areas? Do you agree? And what specific person might be studying in grad school or undergraduate or in high school saying, Hey, I'm not a techie, but they can contribute your thoughts. I'll >>start off with, uh, speak on on behalf of the government today. I would just say that as policy goes, we need to definitely make sure that we're looking towards the future. Ah, lot of our policy was established in the past under different conditions, and, uh, and if there's anything that you cannot say today is that space is the same as it was even 10 years ago. So the so It's really important that our policy evolves and recognizes that that technology is going to enable not just a new ways of doing things, but also force us to maybe change or or get rid of obsolete policies that will inhibit our ability to innovate and grow and maintain peace with with a rapid, evolving threat. The for the for the audience today, Uh, you know, you want some job assurance, cybersecurity and space it's gonna be It's gonna be an unbelievable, uh, next, uh, few decades and I couldn't think of a more exciting for people to get into because, you know, spaces Ah, harsh environment. We're gonna have a hard time just dud being able differentiate, you know, anomalies that occur just because of the environment versus something that's being hacked. And so JPL has been doing this for years on they have Cem Cem great approaches, but but this is this is gonna be important if you put humans on the moon and you're going to sustain them there. Those life support systems are gonna be using, you know, state of the art computer technology, and which means, is also vulnerable. And so eso the consequences of us not being prepared? Uh, not just from our national security standpoint, but from our space exploration and our commercial, uh, economic growth in space over the long term all gonna be hinged on this cyber security environment. >>Clint, your thoughts on this too ill to get. >>Yeah. So I certainly agree with Bucky. But you said something a moment ago that Bucky was talking about as well. But that's the idea that you know in space, you can't just reach out and touch the satellite and do maintenance on the satellite the way you can't a car or a tank or a plane or a ship or something like that. And that is true. However, right, comma, I want to point out. You know, the satellite servicing industry is starting to develop where they're looking at robotic techniques in Cape abilities to go up in services satellite on orbit. And that's very promising off course. You got to think through the security policy that goes with that, of course. But the other thing that's really exciting is with artificial intelligence and machine learning and edge computing and database analytics and all those things that right on the cloud. You may not even need to send a robotic vehicle to a satellite, right? If you can upload and download software defined, fill in the blank right, maybe even fundamentally changing the mission package or the persona, if you will, of the satellite or the spacecraft. And that's really exciting to, ah, lot >>of >>security policy that you've gotta work through. But again, the cloud just opens up so many opportunities to continue to push the boundaries. You know, on the AWS team, the aerospace and satellite team, which is, you know, the new team that I'm leading. Now our motto is to the stars through the cloud. And there are just so many exciting opportunities right for for all those capabilities that I just mentioned to the stars through the cloud >>President, your thoughts on this? >>Yes, eso won >>a >>little bit of time talking about some of the business model implications and some of the challenges that exists there. Um, in my experience, we're still working through a bit of a language barrier of how we define risk management for our space systems. Traditionally traditionally risk management models is it is very clear what poses a risk to a flight mission. Our space mission, our space system. Um, and we're still finding ways to communicate cyber risk in the same terms that are system engineers are space engineers have traditionally understood. Um, this is a bit of a qualitative versus quantitative, a language barrier. But however adopting a risk management model that includes cybersecurity, a za way to express wish risk to miss the success, I think I think it would be a very good thing is something that that we have been focused on the J. P o as we Aziz, we look at the 34 years beyond. How do >>we >>risk that gap and not only skills but communication of cyber risk and the way that our space engineers and our project engineers and a space system managers understand >>Clinton, like Thio talk about space Force because this is the most popular new thing. It's only a couple of nine months in roughly not even a year, uh, already changing involving based on some of the reporting we've done even here at this symposium and on the Internet. Um, you know, when I was growing up, you know, I wasn't there when JFK said, you know, we're gonna get to the moon. I was born in the sixties, so, you know, when I was graduating my degree, you know, Draper Labs, Lincoln Lab, JPL, their pipeline and people wasn't like a surge of job openings. Um, so this kind of this new space new space race, you know, Kennedy also said that Torch has been passed to a new generation of Americans. So in a way that's happening right now with space force. A new generation is here is a digital generation. It's multi disciplinary generation. Could you take a minute and share, uh, for for our audience? And here at this symposium, um, the mission of Space Force and where you see it going because this truly is different. And I think anyone who's young e I mean, you know, if this was happening when I was in college would be like dropping everything. I'm in there, I think, cause there's so many areas thio jump into, um, it's >>intellectually challenging. >>It's intoxicating in some level. So can you share your thoughts? >>Yeah. Happy to do that. Of course. I I need to remind everybody that as a week ago I'm formally retired. So I'm not an official spokesman for US forces. But with that, you know, it said I did spend the last 18 months planning for it, designing and standing it up. And I'll tell you what's really exciting is you know, the commander of, uh, US Base Force General J. Raymond, who's the right leader at the right time. No question in my >>mind. But >>he said, I want to stand up the Space Force as the first fully digital service in the United States. Right? So he is trying >>to bake >>cloud baked cybersecurity, baked digital transformational processes and everything we did. And that was a guidance he gave us every day, every day. When we rolled in. He said, Remember, guys, I don't wanna be the same. I don't wanna be stale. I want new thinking, new capabilities and I want it all to be digital on. That's one of the reasons When we brought the first wave of people into the space force, we brought in space operations, right. People like me that flew satellites and launch rockets, we brought in cyber space experts, and we brought in intelligence experts. Those were the first three waves of people because of that, you know, perfect synergy between space and cyber and intel all wrapped in >>it. >>And so that was really, really smart. The other thing I'll say just about, you know, Kennedy's work. We're going to get to the moon. So here we are. Now we're going back to the Moon Project Artemus that NASA is working next man first woman on the moon by 2024 is the plan and >>then >>with designs to put a permanent presence on the moon and then lean off to march. So there was a lot to get excited about. I will tell you, as we were taking applications and looking at rounding out filling out the village in the U. S. Space Force, we were overwhelmed with the number of people that wanted, and that was a really, really good things. So they're off to a good start, and they're just gonna accomplishment major things. I know for sure. >>Preston, your thoughts on this new generation people out there were like I could get into this. This is a path. What's your what's your opinion on this? And what's your >>E could, uh, you so bold as to say >>that >>I feel like I'm a part of that new generation eso I grew up very much into space. Uh, looking at, um, listen to my, uh, folks I looked up to like Carl Sagan. Like like Neil Tyson. DeGrasse on did really feeling affinity for what What this country has done is for is a space program are focused on space exploration on bond. Through that, I got into our security, as it means from the military. And I just because I feel so fortunate that I could merge both of those worlds because of because of the generational, um, tailoring that we do thio promote space exploration and also the advent of cybersecurity expertise that is needed in this country. I feel like that. We are We are seeing a conversions of this too. I see a lot of young people really getting into space exploration. I see a lot of young people as well. Um uh, gravitating toward cybersecurity as a as a course of study. And to see those two worlds colliding and converse is something that's very near and dear to me. And again, I I feel like I'm a byproduct of that conversion, which is which, Really, Bothwell for space security in the future, >>we'll your great leader and inspiration. Certainly. Senior person as well. Congratulations, Steve. You know, young people motivational. I mean, get going. Get off the sidelines. Jump in Water is fine, Right? Come on in. What's your view on motivating the young workforce out there and anyone thinking about applying their skills on bringing something to the table? >>Well, look at the options today. You have civil space President represents you have military space. Uh, you have commercial space on and even, you know, in academia, the research, the potential as a as an aspiring cyber professional. All of you should be thinking about when we when we When? When we first invented the orbit, which eventually became the Internet, Uh, on Lee, we were, uh if all we had the insight to think Well, geez, you know whether the security implications 2030 years from now of this thing scaling on growing and I think was really good about today's era. Especially as Clint said, because we were building this space infrastructure with a cyber professionals at ground zero on dso the So the opportunity there is to look out into the future and say we're not just trying to secure independent her systems today and assure the free for all of of information for commerce. You know, the GPS signal, Uh, is Justus much in need of protection as anything else tied to our economy, But the would have fantastic mission. And you could do that. Uh, here on the ground. You could do it, uh, at a great companies like Amazon Web services. But you can also one of these states. Perhaps we go and be part of that contingency that goes and does the, uh, the se's oh job that that president has on the moon or on Mars and, uh, space will space will get boring within a generation or two because they'll just be seen as one continuum of everything we have here on Earth. And, uh, and that would be after our time. But in the meantime, is a very exciting place to be. And I know if I was in in my twenties, I wanna be, uh, jumping in with both feet into it. >>Yeah, great stuff. I mean, I think space is gonna be around for a long long time. It's super exciting and cybersecurity making it secure. And there's so many areas defeating on. Gentlemen, thank you very much for your awesome insight. Great panel. Um, great inspiration. Every one of you guys. Thank you very much for for sharing for the space and cybersecurity symposium. Appreciate it. Thank you very much. >>Thanks, John. Thank you. Thank you. Okay, >>I'm >>John for your host for the Space and Cybersecurity Symposium. Thanks for watching.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube covering >>space and cybersecurity. Symposium 2020 hosted by Cal Poly >>Over On Welcome to this Special virtual conference. The Space and Cybersecurity Symposium 2020 put on by Cal Poly with support from the Cube. I'm John for your host and master of ceremonies. Got a great topic today in this session. Really? The intersection of space and cybersecurity. This topic and this conversation is the cybersecurity workforce development through public and private partnerships. And we've got a great lineup. We have Jeff Armstrong's the president of California Polytechnic State University, also known as Cal Poly Jeffrey. Thanks for jumping on and Bang. Go ahead. The second director of C four s R Division. And he's joining us from the office of the Under Secretary of Defense for the acquisition Sustainment Department of Defense, D O D. And, of course, Steve Jake's executive director, founder, National Security Space Association and managing partner at Bello's. Gentlemen, thank you for joining me for this session. We got an hour conversation. Thanks for coming on. >>Thank you. >>So we got a virtual event here. We've got an hour, have a great conversation and love for you guys do? In opening statement on how you see the development through public and private partnerships around cybersecurity in space, Jeff will start with you. >>Well, thanks very much, John. It's great to be on with all of you. Uh, on behalf Cal Poly Welcome, everyone. Educating the workforce of tomorrow is our mission to Cal Poly. Whether that means traditional undergraduates, master students are increasingly mid career professionals looking toe up, skill or re skill. Our signature pedagogy is learn by doing, which means that our graduates arrive at employers ready Day one with practical skills and experience. We have long thought of ourselves is lucky to be on California's beautiful central Coast. But in recent years, as we have developed closer relationships with Vandenberg Air Force Base, hopefully the future permanent headquarters of the United States Space Command with Vandenberg and other regional partners, we have discovered that our location is even more advantages than we thought. We're just 50 miles away from Vandenberg, a little closer than u C. Santa Barbara, and the base represents the southern border of what we have come to think of as the central coast region. Cal Poly and Vandenberg Air force base have partner to support regional economic development to encourage the development of a commercial spaceport toe advocate for the space Command headquarters coming to Vandenberg and other ventures. These partnerships have been possible because because both parties stand to benefit Vandenberg by securing new streams of revenue, workforce and local supply chain and Cal Poly by helping to grow local jobs for graduates, internship opportunities for students, and research and entrepreneurship opportunities for faculty and staff. Crucially, what's good for Vandenberg Air Force Base and for Cal Poly is also good for the Central Coast and the US, creating new head of household jobs, infrastructure and opportunity. Our goal is that these new jobs bring more diversity and sustainability for the region. This regional economic development has taken on a life of its own, spawning a new nonprofit called Reach, which coordinates development efforts from Vandenberg Air Force Base in the South to camp to Camp Roberts in the North. Another factor that is facilitated our relationship with Vandenberg Air Force Base is that we have some of the same friends. For example, Northrop Grumman has has long been an important defense contractor, an important partner to Cal poly funding scholarships and facilities that have allowed us to stay current with technology in it to attract highly qualified students for whom Cal Poly's costs would otherwise be prohibitive. For almost 20 years north of grimness funded scholarships for Cal Poly students this year, their funding 64 scholarships, some directly in our College of Engineering and most through our Cal Poly Scholars program, Cal Poly Scholars, a support both incoming freshman is transfer students. These air especially important because it allows us to provide additional support and opportunities to a group of students who are mostly first generation, low income and underrepresented and who otherwise might not choose to attend Cal Poly. They also allow us to recruit from partner high schools with large populations of underrepresented minority students, including the Fortune High School in Elk Grove, which we developed a deep and lasting connection. We know that the best work is done by balanced teams that include multiple and diverse perspectives. These scholarships help us achieve that goal, and I'm sure you know Northrop Grumman was recently awarded a very large contract to modernized the U. S. I. C B M Armory with some of the work being done at Vandenberg Air Force Base, thus supporting the local economy and protecting protecting our efforts in space requires partnerships in the digital realm. How Polly is partnered with many private companies, such as AWS. Our partnerships with Amazon Web services has enabled us to train our students with next generation cloud engineering skills, in part through our jointly created digital transformation hub. Another partnership example is among Cal Poly's California Cybersecurity Institute, College of Engineering and the California National Guard. This partnership is focused on preparing a cyber ready workforce by providing faculty and students with a hands on research and learning environment, side by side with military, law enforcement professionals and cyber experts. We also have a long standing partnership with PG and E, most recently focused on workforce development and redevelopment. Many of our graduates do indeed go on to careers in aerospace and defense industry as a rough approximation. More than 4500 Cal Poly graduates list aerospace and defense as their employment sector on linked in, and it's not just our engineers and computer sciences. When I was speaking to our fellow Panelists not too long ago, >>are >>speaking to bang, we learned that Rachel sins, one of our liberal arts arts majors, is working in his office. So shout out to you, Rachel. And then finally, of course, some of our graduates sword extraordinary heights such as Commander Victor Glover, who will be heading to the International space station later this year as I close. All of which is to say that we're deeply committed the workforce, development and redevelopment that we understand the value of public private partnerships and that were eager to find new ways in which to benefit everyone from this further cooperation. So we're committed to the region, the state in the nation and our past efforts in space, cybersecurity and links to our partners at as I indicated, aerospace industry and governmental partners provides a unique position for us to move forward in the interface of space and cybersecurity. Thank you so much, John. >>President, I'm sure thank you very much for the comments and congratulations to Cal Poly for being on the forefront of innovation and really taking a unique progressive. You and wanna tip your hat to you guys over there. Thank you very much for those comments. Appreciate it. Bahng. Department of Defense. Exciting you gotta defend the nation spaces Global. Your opening statement. >>Yes, sir. Thanks, John. Appreciate that day. Thank you, everybody. I'm honored to be this panel along with President Armstrong, Cal Poly in my long longtime friend and colleague Steve Jakes of the National Security Space Association, to discuss a very important topic of cybersecurity workforce development, as President Armstrong alluded to, I'll tell you both of these organizations, Cal Poly and the N S. A have done and continue to do an exceptional job at finding talent, recruiting them in training current and future leaders and technical professionals that we vitally need for our nation's growing space programs. A swell Asare collective National security Earlier today, during Session three high, along with my colleague Chris Hansen discussed space, cyber Security and how the space domain is changing the landscape of future conflicts. I discussed the rapid emergence of commercial space with the proliferations of hundreds, if not thousands, of satellites providing a variety of services, including communications allowing for global Internet connectivity. S one example within the O. D. We continue to look at how we can leverage this opportunity. I'll tell you one of the enabling technologies eyes the use of small satellites, which are inherently cheaper and perhaps more flexible than the traditional bigger systems that we have historically used unemployed for the U. D. Certainly not lost on Me is the fact that Cal Poly Pioneer Cube SATs 2020 some years ago, and they set the standard for the use of these systems today. So they saw the valiant benefit gained way ahead of everybody else, it seems, and Cal Poly's focus on training and education is commendable. I especially impressed by the efforts of another of Steve's I colleague, current CEO Mr Bill Britain, with his high energy push to attract the next generation of innovators. Uh, earlier this year, I had planned on participating in this year's Cyber Innovation Challenge. In June works Cal Poly host California Mill and high school students and challenge them with situations to test their cyber knowledge. I tell you, I wish I had that kind of opportunity when I was a kid. Unfortunately, the pandemic change the plan. Why I truly look forward. Thio feature events such as these Thio participating. Now I want to recognize my good friend Steve Jakes, whom I've known for perhaps too long of a time here over two decades or so, who was in acknowledge space expert and personally, I truly applaud him for having the foresight of years back to form the National Security Space Association to help the entire space enterprise navigate through not only technology but Polly policy issues and challenges and paved the way for operational izing space. Space is our newest horrifying domain. That's not a secret anymore. Uh, and while it is a unique area, it shares a lot of common traits with the other domains such as land, air and sea, obviously all of strategically important to the defense of the United States. In conflict they will need to be. They will all be contested and therefore they all need to be defended. One domain alone will not win future conflicts in a joint operation. We must succeed. All to defending space is critical as critical is defending our other operational domains. Funny space is no longer the sanctuary available only to the government. Increasingly, as I discussed in the previous session, commercial space is taking the lead a lot of different areas, including R and D, A so called new space, so cyber security threat is even more demanding and even more challenging. Three US considers and federal access to and freedom to operate in space vital to advancing security, economic prosperity, prosperity and scientific knowledge of the country. That's making cyberspace an inseparable component. America's financial, social government and political life. We stood up US Space force ah, year ago or so as the newest military service is like the other services. Its mission is to organize, train and equip space forces in order to protect us and allied interest in space and to provide space capabilities to the joint force. Imagine combining that US space force with the U. S. Cyber Command to unify the direction of space and cyberspace operation strengthened U D capabilities and integrate and bolster d o d cyber experience. Now, of course, to enable all of this requires had trained and professional cadre of cyber security experts, combining a good mix of policy as well as high technical skill set much like we're seeing in stem, we need to attract more people to this growing field. Now the D. O. D. Is recognized the importance of the cybersecurity workforce, and we have implemented policies to encourage his growth Back in 2013 the deputy secretary of defense signed the D. O d cyberspace workforce strategy to create a comprehensive, well equipped cyber security team to respond to national security concerns. Now this strategy also created a program that encourages collaboration between the D. O. D and private sector employees. We call this the Cyber Information Technology Exchange program or site up. It's an exchange programs, which is very interesting, in which a private sector employees can naturally work for the D. O. D. In a cyber security position that spans across multiple mission critical areas are important to the d. O. D. A key responsibility of cybersecurity community is military leaders on the related threats and cyber security actions we need to have to defeat these threats. We talk about rapid that position, agile business processes and practices to speed up innovation. Likewise, cybersecurity must keep up with this challenge to cyber security. Needs to be right there with the challenges and changes, and this requires exceptional personnel. We need to attract talent investing the people now to grow a robust cybersecurity, workforce, streets, future. I look forward to the panel discussion, John. Thank you. >>Thank you so much bomb for those comments and you know, new challenges and new opportunities and new possibilities and free freedom Operating space. Critical. Thank you for those comments. Looking forward. Toa chatting further. Steve Jakes, executive director of N. S. S. A Europe opening statement. >>Thank you, John. And echoing bangs thanks to Cal Poly for pulling these this important event together and frankly, for allowing the National Security Space Association be a part of it. Likewise, we on behalf the association delighted and honored Thio be on this panel with President Armstrong along with my friend and colleague Bonneau Glue Mahad Something for you all to know about Bomb. He spent the 1st 20 years of his career in the Air Force doing space programs. He then went into industry for several years and then came back into government to serve. Very few people do that. So bang on behalf of the space community, we thank you for your long life long devotion to service to our nation. We really appreciate that and I also echo a bang shot out to that guy Bill Britain, who has been a long time co conspirator of ours for a long time and you're doing great work there in the cyber program at Cal Poly Bill, keep it up. But professor arms trying to keep a close eye on him. Uh, I would like to offer a little extra context to the great comments made by by President Armstrong and bahng. Uh, in our view, the timing of this conference really could not be any better. Um, we all recently reflected again on that tragic 9 11 surprise attack on our homeland. And it's an appropriate time, we think, to take pause while the percentage of you in the audience here weren't even born or babies then For the most of us, it still feels like yesterday. And moreover, a tragedy like 9 11 has taught us a lot to include to be more vigilant, always keep our collective eyes and ears open to include those quote eyes and ears from space, making sure nothing like this ever happens again. So this conference is a key aspect. Protecting our nation requires we work in a cybersecurity environment at all times. But, you know, the fascinating thing about space systems is we can't see him. No, sir, We see Space launches man there's nothing more invigorating than that. But after launch, they become invisible. So what are they really doing up there? What are they doing to enable our quality of life in the United States and in the world? Well, to illustrate, I'd like to paraphrase elements of an article in Forbes magazine by Bonds and my good friend Chuck Beans. Chuck. It's a space guy, actually had Bonds job a fuse in the Pentagon. He is now chairman and chief strategy officer at York Space Systems, and in his spare time he's chairman of the small satellites. Chuck speaks in words that everyone can understand. So I'd like to give you some of his words out of his article. Uh, they're afraid somewhat. So these are Chuck's words. Let's talk about average Joe and playing Jane. Before heading to the airport for a business trip to New York City, Joe checks the weather forecast informed by Noah's weather satellites to see what pack for the trip. He then calls an uber that space app. Everybody uses it matches riders with drivers via GPS to take into the airport, So Joe has lunch of the airport. Unbeknownst to him, his organic lunch is made with the help of precision farming made possible through optimized irrigation and fertilization, with remote spectral sensing coming from space and GPS on the plane, the pilot navigates around weather, aided by GPS and nose weather satellites. And Joe makes his meeting on time to join his New York colleagues in a video call with a key customer in Singapore made possible by telecommunication satellites. Around to his next meeting, Joe receives notice changing the location of the meeting to another to the other side of town. So he calmly tells Syria to adjust the destination, and his satellite guided Google maps redirects him to the new location. That evening, Joe watches the news broadcast via satellite. The report details a meeting among world leaders discussing the developing crisis in Syria. As it turns out, various forms of quote remotely sensed. Information collected from satellites indicate that yet another band, chemical weapon, may have been used on its own people. Before going to bed, Joe decides to call his parents and congratulate them for their wedding anniversary as they cruise across the Atlantic, made possible again by communications satellites and Joe's parents can enjoy the call without even wondering how it happened the next morning. Back home, Joe's wife, Jane, is involved in a car accident. Her vehicle skids off the road. She's knocked unconscious, but because of her satellite equipped on star system, the crash is detected immediately and first responders show up on the scene. In time, Joe receives the news books. An early trip home sends flowers to his wife as he orders another uber to the airport. Over that 24 hours, Joe and Jane used space system applications for nearly every part of their day. Imagine the consequences if at any point they were somehow denied these services, whether they be by natural causes or a foreign hostility. And each of these satellite applications used in this case were initially developed for military purposes and continue to be, but also have remarkable application on our way of life. Just many people just don't know that. So, ladies and gentlemen, now you know, thanks to chuck beans, well, the United States has a proud heritage being the world's leading space faring nation, dating back to the Eisenhower and Kennedy years. Today we have mature and robust systems operating from space, providing overhead reconnaissance to quote, wash and listen, provide missile warning, communications, positioning, navigation and timing from our GPS system. Much of what you heard in Lieutenant General J. T. Thompson earlier speech. These systems are not only integral to our national security, but also our also to our quality of life is Chuck told us. We simply no longer could live without these systems as a nation and for that matter, as a world. But over the years, adversary like adversaries like China, Russia and other countries have come to realize the value of space systems and are aggressively playing ketchup while also pursuing capabilities that will challenge our systems. As many of you know, in 2000 and seven, China demonstrated it's a set system by actually shooting down is one of its own satellites and has been aggressively developing counter space systems to disrupt hours. So in a heavily congested space environment, our systems are now being contested like never before and will continue to bay well as Bond mentioned, the United States has responded to these changing threats. In addition to adding ways to protect our system, the administration and in Congress recently created the United States Space Force and the operational you United States Space Command, the latter of which you heard President Armstrong and other Californians hope is going to be located. Vandenberg Air Force Base Combined with our intelligence community today, we have focused military and civilian leadership now in space. And that's a very, very good thing. Commence, really. On the industry side, we did create the National Security Space Association devoted solely to supporting the national security Space Enterprise. We're based here in the D C area, but we have arms and legs across the country, and we are loaded with extraordinary talent. In scores of Forman, former government executives, So S s a is joined at the hip with our government customers to serve and to support. We're busy with a multitude of activities underway ranging from a number of thought provoking policy. Papers are recurring space time Webcast supporting Congress's Space Power Caucus and other main serious efforts. Check us out at NSS. A space dot org's One of our strategic priorities in central to today's events is to actively promote and nurture the workforce development. Just like cow calling. We will work with our U. S. Government customers, industry leaders and academia to attract and recruit students to join the space world, whether in government or industry and two assistant mentoring and training as their careers. Progress on that point, we're delighted. Be delighted to be working with Cal Poly as we hopefully will undertake a new pilot program with him very soon. So students stay tuned something I can tell you Space is really cool. While our nation's satellite systems are technical and complex, our nation's government and industry work force is highly diverse, with a combination of engineers, physicists, method and mathematicians, but also with a large non technical expertise as well. Think about how government gets things thes systems designed, manufactured, launching into orbit and operating. They do this via contracts with our aerospace industry, requiring talents across the board from cost estimating cost analysis, budgeting, procurement, legal and many other support. Tasker Integral to the mission. Many thousands of people work in the space workforce tens of billions of dollars every year. This is really cool stuff, no matter what your education background, a great career to be part of. When summary as bang had mentioned Aziz, well, there is a great deal of exciting challenges ahead we will see a new renaissance in space in the years ahead, and in some cases it's already begun. Billionaires like Jeff Bezos, Elon Musk, Sir Richard Richard Branson are in the game, stimulating new ideas in business models, other private investors and start up companies. Space companies are now coming in from all angles. The exponential advancement of technology and microelectronics now allows the potential for a plethora of small SAT systems to possibly replace older satellites the size of a Greyhound bus. It's getting better by the day and central to this conference, cybersecurity is paramount to our nation's critical infrastructure in space. So once again, thanks very much, and I look forward to the further conversation. >>Steve, thank you very much. Space is cool. It's relevant. But it's important, as you pointed out, and you're awesome story about how it impacts our life every day. So I really appreciate that great story. I'm glad you took the time Thio share that you forgot the part about the drone coming over in the crime scene and, you know, mapping it out for you. But that would add that to the story later. Great stuff. My first question is let's get into the conversations because I think this is super important. President Armstrong like you to talk about some of the points that was teased out by Bang and Steve. One in particular is the comment around how military research was important in developing all these capabilities, which is impacting all of our lives. Through that story. It was the military research that has enabled a generation and generation of value for consumers. This is kind of this workforce conversation. There are opportunities now with with research and grants, and this is, ah, funding of innovation that it's highly accelerate. It's happening very quickly. Can you comment on how research and the partnerships to get that funding into the universities is critical? >>Yeah, I really appreciate that And appreciate the comments of my colleagues on it really boils down to me to partnerships, public private partnerships. You mentioned Northrop Grumman, but we have partnerships with Lockie Martin, Boeing, Raytheon Space six JPL, also member of organization called Business Higher Education Forum, which brings together university presidents and CEOs of companies. There's been focused on cybersecurity and data science, and I hope that we can spill into cybersecurity in space but those partnerships in the past have really brought a lot forward at Cal Poly Aziz mentioned we've been involved with Cube set. Uh, we've have some secure work and we want to plan to do more of that in the future. Uh, those partnerships are essential not only for getting the r and d done, but also the students, the faculty, whether masters or undergraduate, can be involved with that work. Uh, they get that real life experience, whether it's on campus or virtually now during Covic or at the location with the partner, whether it may be governmental or our industry. Uh, and then they're even better equipped, uh, to hit the ground running. And of course, we'd love to see even more of our students graduate with clearance so that they could do some of that a secure work as well. So these partnerships are absolutely critical, and it's also in the context of trying to bring the best and the brightest and all demographics of California and the US into this field, uh, to really be successful. So these partnerships are essential, and our goal is to grow them just like I know other colleagues and C. S u and the U C are planning to dio, >>you know, just as my age I've seen I grew up in the eighties, in college and during that systems generation and that the generation before me, they really kind of pioneered the space that spawned the computer revolution. I mean, you look at these key inflection points in our lives. They were really funded through these kinds of real deep research. Bond talk about that because, you know, we're living in an age of cloud. And Bezos was mentioned. Elon Musk. Sir Richard Branson. You got new ideas coming in from the outside. You have an accelerated clock now on terms of the innovation cycles, and so you got to react differently. You guys have programs to go outside >>of >>the Defense Department. How important is this? Because the workforce that air in schools and our folks re skilling are out there and you've been on both sides of the table. So share your thoughts. >>No, thanks, John. Thanks for the opportunity responded. And that's what you hit on the notes back in the eighties, R and D in space especially, was dominated by my government funding. Uh, contracts and so on. But things have changed. As Steve pointed out, A lot of these commercial entities funded by billionaires are coming out of the woodwork funding R and D. So they're taking the lead. So what we can do within the deal, the in government is truly take advantage of the work they've done on. Uh, since they're they're, you know, paving the way to new new approaches and new way of doing things. And I think we can We could certainly learn from that. And leverage off of that saves us money from an R and D standpoint while benefiting from from the product that they deliver, you know, within the O D Talking about workforce development Way have prioritized we have policies now to attract and retain talent. We need I I had the folks do some research and and looks like from a cybersecurity workforce standpoint. A recent study done, I think, last year in 2019 found that the cybersecurity workforce gap in the U. S. Is nearing half a million people, even though it is a growing industry. So the pipeline needs to be strengthened off getting people through, you know, starting young and through college, like assess a professor Armstrong indicated, because we're gonna need them to be in place. Uh, you know, in a period of about maybe a decade or so, Uh, on top of that, of course, is the continuing issue we have with the gap with with stamps students, we can't afford not to have expertise in place to support all the things we're doing within the with the not only deal with the but the commercial side as well. Thank you. >>How's the gap? Get? Get filled. I mean, this is the this is again. You got cybersecurity. I mean, with space. It's a whole another kind of surface area, if you will, in early surface area. But it is. It is an I o t. Device if you think about it. But it does have the same challenges. That's kind of current and and progressive with cybersecurity. Where's the gap Get filled, Steve Or President Armstrong? I mean, how do you solve the problem and address this gap in the workforce? What is some solutions and what approaches do we need to put in place? >>Steve, go ahead. I'll follow up. >>Okay. Thanks. I'll let you correct. May, uh, it's a really good question, and it's the way I would. The way I would approach it is to focus on it holistically and to acknowledge it up front. And it comes with our teaching, etcetera across the board and from from an industry perspective, I mean, we see it. We've gotta have secure systems with everything we do and promoting this and getting students at early ages and mentoring them and throwing internships at them. Eyes is so paramount to the whole the whole cycle, and and that's kind of and it really takes focused attention. And we continue to use the word focus from an NSS, a perspective. We know the challenges that are out there. There are such talented people in the workforce on the government side, but not nearly enough of them. And likewise on industry side. We could use Maura's well, but when you get down to it, you know we can connect dots. You know that the the aspect That's a Professor Armstrong talked about earlier toe where you continue to work partnerships as much as you possibly can. We hope to be a part of that. That network at that ecosystem the will of taking common objectives and working together to kind of make these things happen and to bring the power not just of one or two companies, but our our entire membership to help out >>President >>Trump. Yeah, I would. I would also add it again. It's back to partnerships that I talked about earlier. One of our partners is high schools and schools fortune Margaret Fortune, who worked in a couple of, uh, administrations in California across party lines and education. Their fifth graders all visit Cal Poly and visit our learned by doing lab and you, you've got to get students interested in stem at a early age. We also need the partnerships, the scholarships, the financial aid so the students can graduate with minimal to no debt to really hit the ground running. And that's exacerbated and really stress. Now, with this covert induced recession, California supports higher education at a higher rate than most states in the nation. But that is that has dropped this year or reasons. We all understand, uh, due to Kobe, and so our partnerships, our creativity on making sure that we help those that need the most help financially uh, that's really key, because the gaps air huge eyes. My colleagues indicated, you know, half of half a million jobs and you need to look at the the students that are in the pipeline. We've got to enhance that. Uh, it's the in the placement rates are amazing. Once the students get to a place like Cal Poly or some of our other amazing CSU and UC campuses, uh, placement rates are like 94%. >>Many of our >>engineers, they have jobs lined up a year before they graduate. So it's just gonna take key partnerships working together. Uh, and that continued partnership with government, local, of course, our state of CSU on partners like we have here today, both Stephen Bang So partnerships the thing >>e could add, you know, the collaboration with universities one that we, uh, put a lot of emphasis, and it may not be well known fact, but as an example of national security agencies, uh, National Centers of Academic Excellence in Cyber, the Fast works with over 270 colleges and universities across the United States to educate its 45 future cyber first responders as an example, so that Zatz vibrant and healthy and something that we ought Teoh Teik, banjo >>off. Well, I got the brain trust here on this topic. I want to get your thoughts on this one point. I'd like to define what is a public private partnership because the theme that's coming out of the symposium is the script has been flipped. It's a modern error. Things air accelerated get you got security. So you get all these things kind of happen is a modern approach and you're seeing a digital transformation play out all over the world in business. Andi in the public sector. So >>what is what >>is a modern public private partnership? What does it look like today? Because people are learning differently, Covert has pointed out, which was that we're seeing right now. How people the progressions of knowledge and learning truth. It's all changing. How do you guys view the modern version of public private partnership and some some examples and improve points? Can you can you guys share that? We'll start with the Professor Armstrong. >>Yeah. A zai indicated earlier. We've had on guy could give other examples, but Northup Grumman, uh, they helped us with cyber lab. Many years ago. That is maintained, uh, directly the software, the connection outside its its own unit so that students can learn the hack, they can learn to penetrate defenses, and I know that that has already had some considerations of space. But that's a benefit to both parties. So a good public private partnership has benefits to both entities. Uh, in the common factor for universities with a lot of these partnerships is the is the talent, the talent that is, that is needed, what we've been working on for years of the, you know, that undergraduate or master's or PhD programs. But now it's also spilling into Skilling and re Skilling. As you know, Jobs. Uh, you know, folks were in jobs today that didn't exist two years, three years, five years ago. But it also spills into other aspects that can expand even mawr. We're very fortunate. We have land, there's opportunities. We have one tech part project. We're expanding our tech park. I think we'll see opportunities for that, and it'll it'll be adjusted thio, due to the virtual world that we're all learning more and more about it, which we were in before Cove it. But I also think that that person to person is going to be important. Um, I wanna make sure that I'm driving across the bridge. Or or that that satellites being launched by the engineer that's had at least some in person training, uh, to do that and that experience, especially as a first time freshman coming on a campus, getting that experience expanding and as adult. And we're gonna need those public private partnerships in order to continue to fund those at a level that is at the excellence we need for these stem and engineering fields. >>It's interesting People in technology can work together in these partnerships in a new way. Bank Steve Reaction Thio the modern version of what a public, successful private partnership looks like. >>If I could jump in John, I think, you know, historically, Dodi's has have had, ah, high bar thio, uh, to overcome, if you will, in terms of getting rapid pulling in your company. This is the fault, if you will and not rely heavily in are the usual suspects of vendors and like and I think the deal is done a good job over the last couple of years off trying to reduce the burden on working with us. You know, the Air Force. I think they're pioneering this idea around pitch days where companies come in, do a two hour pitch and immediately notified of a wooden award without having to wait a long time. Thio get feedback on on the quality of the product and so on. So I think we're trying to do our best. Thio strengthen that partnership with companies outside the main group of people that we typically use. >>Steve, any reaction? Comment to add? >>Yeah, I would add a couple of these air. Very excellent thoughts. Uh, it zits about taking a little gamble by coming out of your comfort zone. You know, the world that Bond and Bond lives in and I used to live in in the past has been quite structured. It's really about we know what the threat is. We need to go fix it, will design it says we go make it happen, we'll fly it. Um, life is so much more complicated than that. And so it's it's really to me. I mean, you take you take an example of the pitch days of bond talks about I think I think taking a gamble by attempting to just do a lot of pilot programs, uh, work the trust factor between government folks and the industry folks in academia. Because we are all in this together in a lot of ways, for example. I mean, we just sent the paper to the White House of their requests about, you know, what would we do from a workforce development perspective? And we hope Thio embellish on this over time once the the initiative matures. But we have a piece of it, for example, is the thing we call clear for success getting back Thio Uh, President Armstrong's comments at the collegiate level. You know, high, high, high quality folks are in high demand. So why don't we put together a program they grabbed kids in their their underclass years identifies folks that are interested in doing something like this. Get them scholarships. Um, um, I have a job waiting for them that their contract ID for before they graduate, and when they graduate, they walk with S C I clearance. We believe that could be done so, and that's an example of ways in which the public private partnerships can happen to where you now have a talented kid ready to go on Day one. We think those kind of things can happen. It just gets back down to being focused on specific initiatives, give them giving them a chance and run as many pilot programs as you can like these days. >>That's a great point, E. President. >>I just want to jump in and echo both the bank and Steve's comments. But Steve, that you know your point of, you know, our graduates. We consider them ready Day one. Well, they need to be ready Day one and ready to go secure. We totally support that and and love to follow up offline with you on that. That's that's exciting, uh, and needed very much needed mawr of it. Some of it's happening, but way certainly have been thinking a lot about that and making some plans, >>and that's a great example of good Segway. My next question. This kind of reimagining sees work flows, eyes kind of breaking down the old the old way and bringing in kind of a new way accelerated all kind of new things. There are creative ways to address this workforce issue, and this is the next topic. How can we employ new creative solutions? Because, let's face it, you know, it's not the days of get your engineering degree and and go interview for a job and then get slotted in and get the intern. You know the programs you get you particularly through the system. This is this is multiple disciplines. Cybersecurity points at that. You could be smart and math and have, ah, degree in anthropology and even the best cyber talents on the planet. So this is a new new world. What are some creative approaches that >>you know, we're >>in the workforce >>is quite good, John. One of the things I think that za challenge to us is you know, we got somehow we got me working for with the government, sexy, right? The part of the challenge we have is attracting the right right level of skill sets and personnel. But, you know, we're competing oftentimes with the commercial side, the gaming industry as examples of a big deal. And those are the same talents. We need to support a lot of programs we have in the U. D. So somehow we have to do a better job to Steve's point off, making the work within the U. D within the government something that they would be interested early on. So I tracked him early. I kind of talked about Cal Poly's, uh, challenge program that they were gonna have in June inviting high school kid. We're excited about the whole idea of space and cyber security, and so on those air something. So I think we have to do it. Continue to do what were the course the next several years. >>Awesome. Any other creative approaches that you guys see working or might be on idea, or just a kind of stoked the ideation out their internship. So obviously internships are known, but like there's gotta be new ways. >>I think you can take what Steve was talking about earlier getting students in high school, uh, and aligning them sometimes. Uh, that intern first internship, not just between the freshman sophomore year, but before they inter cal poly per se. And they're they're involved s So I think that's, uh, absolutely key. Getting them involved many other ways. Um, we have an example of of up Skilling a redeveloped work redevelopment here in the Central Coast. PG and e Diablo nuclear plant as going to decommission in around 2020 24. And so we have a ongoing partnership toe work on reposition those employees for for the future. So that's, you know, engineering and beyond. Uh, but think about that just in the manner that you were talking about. So the up skilling and re Skilling uh, on I think that's where you know, we were talking about that Purdue University. Other California universities have been dealing with online programs before cove it and now with co vid uh, so many more faculty or were pushed into that area. There's going to be much more going and talk about workforce development and up Skilling and Re Skilling The amount of training and education of our faculty across the country, uh, in in virtual, uh, and delivery has been huge. So there's always a silver linings in the cloud. >>I want to get your guys thoughts on one final question as we in the in the segment. And we've seen on the commercial side with cloud computing on these highly accelerated environments where you know, SAS business model subscription. That's on the business side. But >>one of The >>things that's clear in this trend is technology, and people work together and technology augments the people components. So I'd love to get your thoughts as we look at the world now we're living in co vid um, Cal Poly. You guys have remote learning Right now. It's a infancy. It's a whole new disruption, if you will, but also an opportunity to enable new ways to collaborate, Right? So if you look at people and technology, can you guys share your view and vision on how communities can be developed? How these digital technologies and people can work together faster to get to the truth or make a discovery higher to build the workforce? These air opportunities? How do you guys view this new digital transformation? >>Well, I think there's there's a huge opportunities and just what we're doing with this symposium. We're filming this on one day, and it's going to stream live, and then the three of us, the four of us, can participate and chat with participants while it's going on. That's amazing. And I appreciate you, John, you bringing that to this this symposium, I think there's more and more that we can do from a Cal poly perspective with our pedagogy. So you know, linked to learn by doing in person will always be important to us. But we see virtual. We see partnerships like this can expand and enhance our ability and minimize the in person time, decrease the time to degree enhanced graduation rate, eliminate opportunity gaps or students that don't have the same advantages. S so I think the technological aspect of this is tremendous. Then on the up Skilling and Re Skilling, where employees air all over, they can be reached virtually then maybe they come to a location or really advanced technology allows them to get hands on virtually, or they come to that location and get it in a hybrid format. Eso I'm I'm very excited about the future and what we can do, and it's gonna be different with every university with every partnership. It's one. Size does not fit all. >>It's so many possibilities. Bond. I could almost imagine a social network that has a verified, you know, secure clearance. I can jump in, have a little cloak of secrecy and collaborate with the d o. D. Possibly in the future. But >>these are the >>kind of kind of crazy ideas that are needed. Are your thoughts on this whole digital transformation cross policy? >>I think technology is gonna be revolutionary here, John. You know, we're focusing lately on what we call digital engineering to quicken the pace off, delivering capability to warfighter. As an example, I think a I machine language all that's gonna have a major play and how we operate in the future. We're embracing five G technologies writing ability Thio zero latency or I o t More automation off the supply chain. That sort of thing, I think, uh, the future ahead of us is is very encouraging. Thing is gonna do a lot for for national defense on certainly the security of the country. >>Steve, your final thoughts. Space systems are systems, and they're connected to other systems that are connected to people. Your thoughts on this digital transformation opportunity >>Such a great question in such a fun, great challenge ahead of us. Um echoing are my colleague's sentiments. I would add to it. You know, a lot of this has I think we should do some focusing on campaigning so that people can feel comfortable to include the Congress to do things a little bit differently. Um, you know, we're not attuned to doing things fast. Uh, but the dramatic You know, the way technology is just going like crazy right now. I think it ties back Thio hoping Thio, convince some of our senior leaders on what I call both sides of the Potomac River that it's worth taking these gamble. We do need to take some of these things very way. And I'm very confident, confident and excited and comfortable. They're just gonna be a great time ahead and all for the better. >>You know, e talk about D. C. Because I'm not a lawyer, and I'm not a political person, but I always say less lawyers, more techies in Congress and Senate. So I was getting job when I say that. Sorry. Presidential. Go ahead. >>Yeah, I know. Just one other point. Uh, and and Steve's alluded to this in bonded as well. I mean, we've got to be less risk averse in these partnerships. That doesn't mean reckless, but we have to be less risk averse. And I would also I have a zoo. You talk about technology. I have to reflect on something that happened in, uh, you both talked a bit about Bill Britton and his impact on Cal Poly and what we're doing. But we were faced a few years ago of replacing a traditional data a data warehouse, data storage data center, and we partner with a W S. And thank goodness we had that in progress on it enhanced our bandwidth on our campus before Cove. It hit on with this partnership with the digital transformation hub. So there is a great example where, uh, we we had that going. That's not something we could have started. Oh, covitz hit. Let's flip that switch. And so we have to be proactive on. We also have thio not be risk averse and do some things differently. Eyes that that is really salvage the experience for for students. Right now, as things are flowing, well, we only have about 12% of our courses in person. Uh, those essential courses, uh, and just grateful for those partnerships that have talked about today. >>Yeah, and it's a shining example of how being agile, continuous operations, these air themes that expand into space and the next workforce needs to be built. Gentlemen, thank you. very much for sharing your insights. I know. Bang, You're gonna go into the defense side of space and your other sessions. Thank you, gentlemen, for your time for great session. Appreciate it. >>Thank you. Thank you. >>Thank you. >>Thank you. Thank you. Thank you all. >>I'm John Furry with the Cube here in Palo Alto, California Covering and hosting with Cal Poly The Space and Cybersecurity Symposium 2020. Thanks for watching.

>>from Santa Clara, California In the heart of Silicon Valley, it's the queue covering altitude 2020. Brought to you by aviatrix. >>Okay, welcome back to altitude. 2020 for the folks on the Livestream. I'm John Furrier Steve Mullaney with CEO of aviatrix for our first of two customer panels on cloud with Cloud Network Architects. We got Bobby. Will be They gone. Luis Castillo, National Instruments. David should nick with fact set. Guys, welcome >>to the stage for this digital >>event. Come on up. >>Hey, good to see you. Thank you. Okay. Okay. Yeah. >>Okay. Customer panel. This is my favorite part. We get to hear the real scoop. Get the gardener. Given this the industry overview. Certainly multi clouds, very relevant. And cloud native networking is the hot trend with live stream out there in the digital events of guys. Let's get into it. The journey is you guys are pioneering this journey of multi cloud and cloud native networking and soon going to be a lot more coming. So I want to get into the journey. What's it been like? Is it really got a lot of scar tissue? Uh, what is some of the learnings >>Yeah, absolutely. So multi Cloud is whether or not we accepted as network engineers is a reality. Um, like Steve said about two years ago, companies really decided to to just to just bite the bullet and move there. Whether or not whether or not we accept that fact, we need to now create a consistent architecture across across multiple clouds and that that is challenging, um, without orchestration layers as you start managing different different tool sets and different languages across different clouds. So that's it's it's really important to start thinking about that. You >>guys are on the other Panelists here this different phases of this journey. Some come at it from a networking perspective. Some comment from a problem. Troubleshooting. Which What's your experiences? >>Yeah, so, uh, from a networking perspective, it's been incredibly exciting. It's kind of a once in a generational opportunity to look at how you're building out your network. You can start to embrace things like infrastructure as code that maybe your peers on the systems teams have been doing for years. But it just never really worked on Prem, so it's really it's really exciting to look at all the opportunities that we have And then all the interesting challenges that come up that you, uh, that you get to tackle >>and in fact said, you guys are mostly aws, right? >>Right now, though, where we are looking at multiple clouds, we have production workloads running in multiple clouds today. But a lot of the initial work has been with them, >>and you see it from a networking perspective. That's where you guys are coming at it from. Yep. Yeah. So >>we evolved more from a customer requirement. Perspective started out primarily is AWS. But as the customer needed mawr resources manager like HPC, you know, Azure A D. Things like that. Even recently, Google do analytics. Our journey has evolved into more of a multi cloud environment. >>Steve weigh in on the architecture because this has been the big conversation. I want you to lead this sector. >>Yeah, so I mean, I think you guys agreed that journey. It seems like the journey started a couple of years ago got real serious. The need for multi cloud, whether you're there today. Of course it's going to be there in the future, so that's really important. I think the next thing is just architecture. I love to hear what you you had some comments about architecture matters. It all starts. I mean, every enterprise I talked to maybe talk about architecture in the importance of architecture. Maybe Bobby >>is from architectural perspective. We started our journey five years ago. Wow. Okay. And we're just now starting our fourth evolution of our network architect. Okay? And we call it networking security. Net sec versus just network on that. Fourth generation architectures be based primarily upon Palo Alto networks and aviatrix aviatrix doing the orchestration piece of it. But that journey came because of the need for simplicity, the need for a multi cloud orchestration without having to go and do reprogramming efforts across every cloud as it comes along. >>Right? I guess. The other question, I I also had around architectures also, Louise, maybe just talk about I know we've talked a little bit about scripting right and some of your thoughts on that. Yeah, absolutely. So, um, so for us, we started, We started creating Ah, the network constructs with cloud formation. And we've stuck with that, for the most part. What's interesting about that is today on premise, we have a lot of a lot of automation around around how we provision networks, but confirmation has become a little bit like the new manual for us. So we're now having issues with having the automate that component and making it consistent with our on premise architecture, making it consistent with azure architecture and Google Cloud. So it's really interesting to see to see companies now bring that layer of abstraction that SD Wan brought to the to the wan side. Now it's going up into into the cloud networking architectures, >>right? So on the fourth generation of you mentioned, you're 1/4 gen architecture. What do you guys? What have you learned? Is there any lessons? Scar tissue, what to avoid? What worked? What was some of the >>one of the biggest lesson there is that when you think you finally figured it out, you haven't right? Amazon will change something as you change something, you know, transit gateway, the game changer eso uh, and listening to the business requirements is probably the biggest thing we need to do up front. But I think from a simplicity perspective, we said We don't want to do things four times. We want two things. One time we want to have a right to an AP I, which aviatrix has and have them do the orchestration for us so that we don't have to do it four times. How >>important is architecture in the progression, is it? You guys get thrown in the deep end to solve these problems or you guys zooming out and looking at it. I mean, how are you guys looking at the architecture? >>I mean, you can't get off the ground if you don't have the network there. So all of those things we've gone through similar evolutions. We're on our fourth or fifth evolution. Uh, I think about what We started off with Amazon without a direct connect gateway without a transit gateway without ah, a lot of the things that are available today kind of the 80 20 that Steve was talking about. Just because it wasn't there doesn't mean we didn't need it, so we >>needed to figure out a way to do it. We >>couldn't say. You need to come back to the network team in a year. Maybe Amazon will have a solution for you. We need to do it now and evolve later and maybe optimize or change. Really, you're doing things in the future, But don't sit around and wait. You can't. >>I'd love to have you guys each individually answer this question for the livestream that comes up a lot. A lot of cloud architects out in the community. What should they be thinking about? The folks that are coming into this proactively and are realizing the business benefits are there? What advice would you guys give them? An architecture, which should be they be thinking about and what some guiding principles you could share. >>So I would start with, ah, looking at an architectural model that that can, that can spread and and give consistency the different two different cloud vendors that you will absolutely have to support. Um, cloud vendors tend to want to pull you into using their native tool set, and that's good. If only it was realistic, too. Talk about only one cloud, but because it doesn't, it's it's, um, it's super important to talk about and have a conversation with the business and with your technology teams about a consistent model. >>How do I do my day one work so that I'm not spending 80% of my time troubleshooting or managing my network. Because if I'm doing that, then I'm missing out on ways that I can make improvements to embrace new technologies. So it's really important early on to figure out how do I make this as low maintenance as possible so that I can focus on the things that the team really should be focusing on. >>Bobby. Your advice? The architect. I >>don't know what else I can add to. That simplicity of operations is gives key. >>Alright, so the holistic view of Day two operation you mentioned let's could jump in. Day one is you're getting stuff set up. Day two is your life after. This is what you're getting at, David. So what does that look like? What are you envisioning as you look at that 20 mile stare out post multi cloud world one of the things that you want in a day to operations? >>Yeah, infrastructure as code is really important to us. So how do we How do we design it so that we can fit start making network changes and putting them into like, a release pipeline and start looking at it like that rather than somebody logging into a router cli and troubleshooting things on an ad hoc nature. So moving more towards the Devil Ops model. >>Here's the thing I had on that day two. >>Yeah, I would. I would love to add something. So in terms of day two operations, you can you can either sort of ignore the day two operations for a little while where you get well, you get your feet wet, um, or you can start approaching it from the beginning. The fact is that the cloud native tools don't have a lot of maturity in that space. And when you run into an issue, you're gonna end up having a bad day, going through millions and millions of logs just to try to understand what's going on. So that's something that the industry just now is beginning to realize. It's It's such a such a big gap. >>I think that's key, because for us, we're moving to more of an event driven or operations. In the past. Monitoring got the job done. It is impossible to modern monitor something that's not there when the event happens, right, so the event driven application and then detection is important. >>I think Gardner is about the Cloud Native wave coming into networking. That's going to be a serious thing. I want to get you guys perspective. I know you have different views of how you came into the journey and how you're executing. And I always say the beauty's in the eye of the beholder and that kind of applies the networks laid out. So, Bobby, you guys do a lot of high performance encryption both on AWS and Azure. That's kind of a unique thing for you. How are you seeing that impact with multi cloud? >>And that's a new requirement for us to where we, uh we have a requirement to encrypt, and they never get the question Should encryption and encrypt. The answer is always yes, you should encrypt. You should get encrypt for perspective. We we need to moderate a bunch of data from our data centers. We have some huge data centers on. Getting that data to the cloud is is timely experiencing some cases, So we have been mandated that we have to encrypt everything, leaving the data center. So we're looking at using the aviatrix insane mode appliances to be able to decrypt you know 10 20 gigabytes of data as it moves to the cloud itself. David, you're using >>terra form. You've got fire net. You've got a lot of complexity in your network. What do you guys look at the future for your environment? >>Yes. So something exciting that we're working on now is fire net. So for our security team, they obviously have a lot of a lot of knowledge based around Polito on with our commitments to our clients, you know, it's it's it's not very easy to shift your security model to a specific cloud vendor it So there's a lot of stock to compliance and things like that where being able to take some of what you've you know you've worked on for years on Prem and put it in the cloud and have the same type of assurance that things were gonna work and be secure in the same way that they are on Prem helps make that journey into the cloud a lot easier. >>And you guys got scripting and get a lot of things going on. What's your what's your unique angle on this? >>Um, yeah. No, absolutely so full disclosure. I'm not not not an aviatrix customer yet. >>It's okay. We want to hear the truth. So that's good. Tell >>us what you're thinking about. What's on your mind. >>No, really, Um, when you when you talk about, um, implementing the to like this, it's It's really just really important. Teoh talk about automation and focus on on value. So when you talk about things like encryption and thinks like so you're encrypting tunnels and encrypting the path and those things are, should it should should be second nature, Really? When you when you look at building those back ends and managing them with your team, it becomes really painful. So tools like aviatrix that that had a lot of automation. It's out of out of sight, out of mind. You can focus on the value you don't have to focus on. >>I got to ask, You guys are seeing the traces here. They're their supplier to the sector, but you guys are customers. Everyone's pitching your stuff that people are not going to buy my stuff. How >>do you >>guys have that conversation with the suppliers, like the cloud vendors and other folks? What's the What's the leg or a P? I all the way you got to support this. What are some >>of the >>what are some of your requirements? How do you talk to and evaluate people that walk in and want Teoh knock on your door and pitch you something? What's the conversation like? >>It's definitely It's definitely a p. I driven. Um, we we definitely look at the at the structure of the vendors provide before we select anything. Um, that that is always first of mine. And also, what problem are we really trying to solve? Usually people try to sell or try to give us something that isn't really valuable. Like implementing Cisco solution on the on the cloud isn't really doesn't really add a lot of value. >>David, what's your conversations like with suppliers? So you have a certain new way to do things as becomes more agile, essentially networking and more dynamic. What are some of the conversations with the other incumbents or new new vendors that you're having what you require? >>So ease of use is definitely, definitely high up there. We've had some vendors come in and say, Hey, you know, when you go to set this up, we're gonna want to send somebody on site and they're going to sit with you for a day to configure. And that's kind of a red flag. Wait a minute. You know, we really if one of my really talented engineers can't figure it out on his own, what's going on there and why is that? So, uh, you know, having having some ease of use and the team being comfortable with it and understanding it is really important. >>How about you in the old days was Do a bake off winner takes all. I mean, is it like that anymore? What's evolving Bake off >>last year for us to win, So But that's different now, because now when you when you get the product, you install the product in AWS in azure or have it up and running a matter of minutes. And the key is, can you be operational within hours or days instead of weeks? But we also have the flexibility to customize it to meet your needs, because you want to be. You would be put into a box with the other customers who have needs that pastor cut their needs. >>You can almost see the challenge of you guys are living where you've got the cloud immediate value, how you can roll a penny solutions. But then you have might have other needs. So you got to be careful not to buy into stuff that's not shipping. So you're trying to be proactive in the same time. Deal with what you got here. How do you guys see that evolving? Because multi cloud to me is definitely relevant. But it's not yet clear how to implement across. How do you guys look at this? Bakes versus, you know, future solutions coming? How do you balance that? >>Um, so again. So right now we were. We're taking the the ad hoc approach and experimenting with the different concepts of cloud on demand, really leveraging the native constructs of each cloud. But but there's there's a breaking point. For sure you don't you don't get to scale this like like Simone said, and you have to focus on being able to deliver Ah, developer their their sandbox play area for the things that they're trying to build quickly. And the only way to do that is with some sort of consistent orchestration layer that allows you to. >>So you spent a lot more stuff becoming pretty quickly. >>I was very. I do expect things to start to start maturing quite quite quickly this year, >>and you guys see similar trends. New stuff coming fast. >>Yeah, the one of the biggest challenge we've got now is being able to segment within the network, being able to provide segmentation between production, non production workloads, even businesses, because we support many businesses worldwide and and isolation between those is a key criteria there. So the ability to identify and quickly isolate those workloads is key. >>So the cios that are watching are saying, Hey, take that hill, do multi cloud and then the bottoms up organization cause you're kind of like off a little bit. It's not how it works. I mean, what is the reality in terms of implementing, you know, and as fast as possible because the business benefits are clear, but it's not always clear in the technology how to move that fast. What are some of the barriers of blockers? One of the enabler, >>I think the reality is, is that you may not think of multi cloud, but your businesses, right? So I think the biggest barriers there is understanding what the requirements are and how best to meet those requirements. I think in a secure manner, because you need to make sure that things are working from a latency perspective, that things work the way they did and get out of the mind shift that, you know, if the Tier three application in the data center it doesn't have to be a Tier three application in the cloud, so lift and shift is not the way to go. >>Scale is a big part of what I see is the competitive advantage of all of these clouds, and it used to be proprietary network stacks in the old days and then open systems came. That was a good thing. But as clouds become bigger, there's kind of an inherent lock in there with the scale. How do you guys keep the choice open? How you guys thinking about interoperability? What is some of the conversations that you guys were having around those key concepts? >>Well, when we look at when we look at the from a networking perspective, it's really key for you to just enable enable all the all the clouds to be able to communicate between them. Developers will will find a way to use the cloud that best suits their business. Um and and like Like you said, it's whether whether you're in denial or not of the multi cloud fact that your company is in already, Um, that's it becomes really important for you to move quickly. >>Yeah, and the A lot of it also hinges on how well is the provider embracing what that specific cloud is doing? So are they swimming with Amazon or azure and just helping facilitate things? They're doing the heavy lifting AP I work for you or are they swimming upstream? And they're trying to hack it all together in a messy way, and so that helps you stay out of the lock in, because there, you know if they're doing if they're using Amazon native tools to help you get where you need to be, it's not like Amazon's going to release something in the future that completely, uh, you know, makes you have designed yourself into a corner. So the closer they're more cloud native, they are, the more, uh, the easier it is to, uh >>to the boy. But you also need to be aligned in such a way that you can take advantage of the cloud Native technology of limits sets. T J W. Is a game changer in terms of cost and performance. Right. So to completely ignore, that would be wrong. But, you know, if you needed to have encryption teaching double encrypted, so you need to have some type of a gateway to do the VPN encryption. So the aviatrix, too, will give you the beauty of both worlds. You can use T. W or the gateway real >>quick in the last minute we have. I want to just get a quick feedback from you guys. I hear a lot of people say to me, Hey, the pick The best cloud for the workload you got, then figure out multi cloud behind the scenes. So that seems to be Do you guys agree with that? I mean, is it doing one cloud across the whole company or this workload works great on AWS. That work was great on this from a cloud standpoint. Do you agree with that premise? And then what is multi cloud stitch them all together? >>Yeah, um, from from an application perspective, it it can be per workload, but It can also be an economical decision. Certain enterprise contracts will will pull you in one direction that value. Um, but the the network problem is still the same. >>It doesn't go away. Yeah, Yeah. I mean, you don't want to be trying to fit a square into a round hole, right? So if it works better on that cloud provider, then it's our job to make sure that that service is there. People can use >>it. Yeah, I agree. You just need to stay ahead of the game. Make sure that the network infrastructure is there. Secure is available and is multi cloud capable. >>Yeah. At the end of the day, you guys just validating that. It's the networking game now. Cloud storage. Compute Check. Networking is where the action is. Awesome. Thanks for your insights. Appreciate you coming on the Cube. Appreciate it. >>Yeah, yeah, yeah.

(upbeat music) >> From Santa Clara, in the heart of Silicon Valley, it's the Cube, covering the Churchills, 2019. Brought to you by Silicon Angle Media. >> Welcome back here Jeff Frick here with the Cube. We're at the Chuchill's, it's the 9th annual award celebration put on by the Churchill club and the theme is all about leadership this year. We're really excited to have a very special guest John W. Thompson, chairman of Microsoft, a partner at Lightspeed Ventures, he's been around a long time. He's known and talks to a lot of leaders. So john, great to have you on. >> Nice to be here, thank you very much for having me. >> So leadership is such an interesting topic right? You go everything from, um, West point and trying to train young men to be leaders in a military situation to a start up that starts as some small company that had some interesting idea that grows to a huge corporate thing that's changing the world. Ya know, what are some of your thoughts as Silicon Valley is going through some hiccups right now and when you look, >> [John W. Thompson] We are? >> Just a couple little ones. >> I did recognize any of those. >> Well maybe not looking at the stock market. I don't know when that thing is coming back down. But you know when you think about leaders, what are somethings people maybe don't think about and really more interestingly how should people grow or what do you look for in a board member when you're talking to some CEO of a hot rising company? >> Well I think leadership is is as much about your personality and the business that use chose to go run is anything else. And the skills and experiences that someone might need to run a, pick a business, a business the size of Microsoft are fundamentally different than what you might need to run Rubrik, which is a company whose board I serve on. But that being said, leadership has some core principles that are critical independent of the size of the company or organization you're on. First of which is, integrity, second of which is focus, third of which is follow through and execution. There is lots of things that fundamental do and do well. And those who don't do well, don't become or stay leaders very long, that's for sure. >> It's interesting to look at Microsoft cause, ya know, three big personalities. Obviously Bill got it started as a young kid, I mean he was literally a kid in college. Um, then you had Steve Ballmer come in, completely different personalities and ya know, interesting for Bill to be willing to give up their reigns and then ya know, some tough times at Microsoft little bit stagnant and then Satya came in and just has supercharged and really driven a huge transformation in a giant big company. What are some of the attributes when you look at those three as leaders and you've worked with them, that make them so successful? >> Well, I think each of them brought something fundamentally different to the table when they were in the leadership role. In the case of Bill, he clearly was a visionary. He defined a point of view about the technology industry. That had he not done that, we wouldn't be where we are in the world today. And so, Bills role was unique. In the case of Steve, the company had hit a significant bump in the road all around the anti-trust activity. And candidly, it's my impression that Bill really didn't want to be involved in that, so he turned to Steve and says tag you're it. And Steve had a very fundamental view about execution. He was very much focus on execute, execute, execute. And if you look at the way the company preformed, its revenue grew from roughly ten, fifteen billion to almost eighty billion dollars during his term as CEO. However, the stock did not perform very well. So people weren't very happy with that. Ironically enough Satya come in, Satya had run the search business, had run the cloud business, had even run the enterprise software business. So he had a very fundamental view about of what he thought the company needed to do. And there were two issues, issues number one was strategy around cloud. And on the day of his announcement, he announced mobile first, cloud first are the strategies of Microsoft. And then he quickly, quickly made it clear that the number two issue, for the company, was about its culture. And while I am unbelievably fascinated by how much progress we've made on the product front, I'm even more encouraged by what has happened on the, candidly, on the cultural front. >> Right. So on the cultural front that is, are you a harder thing to impact especially on a large global company with hundreds of thousands of employees distributed all over the world, so what are the secrets that change culture like that? >> Its fundamental, it's about openness and honesty and candor. Um, one of the things that happens here in the valley, often for some companies is when they do their quarterly or monthly employee all hands meetings, guess what? They screen and filter all of the questions. Well, we don't do that at Microsoft office. Satya does not do that. He wants to be open and honest and candid with his employees with what's going on. My gosh! That's what real leaders do. And so I think what he has done is nothing that is unique, it's just consistent. He has been very very consistent and predictable in his execution of what openness, listening rather than talking, all of the things that good leaders are able to do. >> Right, its funny the one word you haven't said since we have been sitting here, you keep saying execution of focus, which I love focus execute and delight the customer. You haven't said strategy one single time. you said vision, but not strategy. Its interesting because I think a lot of people don't put enough emphasis on, its just work, you just got to execute. >> Its one thing to have a strategy, but if you can't execute the strategy, of what value is it? So I have always had a view in my roles as leader that it's about focus and executing. Yes, you have to come up with a vision and yes you have to create ideas that employees, and partners, and customers can become excited about. But ultimately it's about execution day in and day out. 368 days of the years, not 365. >> Alright, final question I know you've got a busy night. As you look as some leaders that you look up to, maybe not of this generation that you've been working with, but maybe of a past generation, who are some of the folks that you look to for your inspiration on the leadership side? >> Well, I would have to say the first one was the former vice chairman of IBM, who I was the chief of staff to many many many years ago. His name was Paul Rizzo. Paul was probably one of the most influential people in the company during that period of time, but you'd never know it. He had a level of humility about himself. He had a level of openness and candor in his interaction with employees at all levels up and down the line. And a company of IBM's size back in those days, it was two, three hundred thousand people big. And so he would be the first leader that comes to my mind as someone who was impactful on me. Another one would have been, a guy who created Akamai. He's on the board of Oracle and he's an awesome awesome friend of mine. He was the guy that ran the America's and gave me my first really really big job. And the fact that he was willing to give a guy like me a job like that, was a pretty important move. George Conrades is his name by the way. And so those two people were very very influential as leaders. As I would look at them and try to determine whether or not can I, can I pattern myself after that? Or are there things that they do and say and execute that I should consider as I think about my evolving leadership. >> Right so important to have people that you can look up to, learn from, and to take care of ya and help you along the way. >> [John W. Thompson] I agree >> John, thanks for spending some time it's always great to sit down with you >> Nice to see you as well. >> And continue success. We'll hopefully see you next time not to long from now. >> Lets hope not. >> Alright, he's John W. Thompson and I'm Jeff Frick. You're watching the Cube, were at the Churchill's in Santa Clara California. Thanks for watching we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: From Santa Clara in the heart of Silicon Valley, it's theCUBE, covering the Churchills 2019. Brought to you by SiliconANGLE Media. >> Hey, welcome back everybody, Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're in Santa Clara, California at the ninth annual Churchills. It's an awards banquet put on by the Churchill Club and this year's theme is all about leadership and we're excited to have with us today the MC, he's Rich Karlgaard, the co-founder of the Churchill Club and also a publisher at Forbes. Rich, thanks for stopping by. >> Oh, it's an honor to be here, Jeff. >> So, busy night tonight. The theme is leadership, but we've been suffering a little bit of a black eye on leadership lately in the tech scene in Silicon Valley. >> Well, I really think we have. I travel the world a lot and around the United States and I have to say that large parts of the world and the United States are falling out of love with Silicon Valley. And I think that's directly attributable to some of the companies and some of the leaders who are maybe moving so fast that they're forgetting to do the right things for customers, for employees, and for their community at large. >> Yeah, I'm wondering, get your take, a lot of these guys and gals become successful for a whole bunch of reasons, right? and they happen to be at the top of a company. I'll just pick on Zuckerberg 'cause he's easy to pick on. But you know, he had an application, it was about getting people together, and suddenly these platforms get so big and so ubiquitous, you know, is he the right guy? He never signed up to be the leader of the platform world, and yet he's kind of put in that position. We see that kind of with YouTube, because again, the platform is so big and I think it almost feels like it grows beyond the tentacles of the control. >> Well, it remains to be seen if Mark Zuckerberg is the right guy. I think of somebody from more my era, Bill Gates. And Bill Gates was a fabulous leader of Microsoft, but they ran too fast, they ran too hard, they got in trouble with the U.S. Department of Justice, and Bill Gates ended up resigning from Microsoft. And he served as a great board member of Microsoft ever since, was instrumental, along with John Thompson, the board chairman who will be honored tonight, in bringing in the person I think is the best CEO in the world today, Satya Nadella of Microsoft. Sometimes you have to hand the baton. >> Right, right. But are there some lessons that people should be thinking about when they're maybe thrust into this position that they weren't necessarily ready for? I mean, one thing about Gates is he gave up his CEO job pretty early to Ballmer, arguably whether that was super successful or not. But some of them kind of get out of the way and some of them don't. And they don't necessarily have the skills to take on some of these huge kind of geopolitical, socioeconomic issues. >> Well I think that's right. Another example, Larry Ellison led the brilliant early days of Oracle but when he got in trouble with the Securities and Exchange Commission, he had to really make way for a strong number two, Ray Lane, and that turned out to be the perfect complement, you see. You had Ellison's vision and drive but you had Lane's ability to run really good operations. Steve Jobs never got into trouble but having a really solid number two like Tim Cook was very valuable. So some of these brilliant entrepreneurs need solid number two's, so I think they have lieutenants but I don't think they have really solid number two's. >> So what are you excited about tonight? We got some really great people, you already mentioned John W. Thompson, we've had him on a ton of times, great leader. Who are some of the people you're excited to see tonight? >> Well, we have three great companies, we have Slack, Zoom, and my personal favorite, Peloton. I'm kind of lusting for a Peloton bike in my garage. I hope it arrives under the Christmas tree this year. >> (laughs) All right, Rich. Well, thanks for taking a few minutes and good luck tonight on the MC duties. >> Yeah, well, thank you Jeff. >> All right, he's Rich, I'm Jeff, you're watching theCUBE, we're at the Churchills, the ninth annual awards banquet here with the Churchill Club. Thanks for watching, we'll see you next time. (upbeat electronic music)

>> live from San Francisco, celebrating 10 years of high tech coverage. It's the Cube covering Veum World 2019. Brought to you by IBM Wear and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome to our live coverage here in Mosconi North Lobby, Of'em World 2019. I'm John for a Student and a Volante celebrating our 10th VM World or 10 years of covering the M world. Dave's stew. What a run been Go back across Mosconi South 10 years ago with the green set. This is 10 years later. 10:10 p.m. World BMC Rule No longer the show, so that kind of folds in the Dell Technologies Man, The world's changed. Pat Nelson had just delivered his keynote as CEO Sanjay Poon and a CEO came on talk to customers stew. A lot of acquisitions, a lot of cloud native, a lot of cloud. 2.0, this is turning into VM. Wear 2.0, where vm zehr kind of only one part of the equation. So let's jump into the analysis, Dave. I mean, you put out some killer research on silken angle dot com, and we keep on dot com around customer spend still, we put out a lot of analysis on all the key trends that Vienna was playing into. Cloud two point. Oh, is what we're calling it. It's enterprise Cloud of fresh scale Day. What? What? What? What do you want? Your analysis, Latino >> John, when you go back. 10 VM Worlds ago, it was all about virtualization, completely changing the deployment dynamics. When when I first saw a VM deployed, I went, Oh, my God, This is gonna change everything. And it did. But while compared to now what's happening with cloud and a I we heard so much about five g. It was also the big, big difference in the ecosystem. Back when e. M. C owned VM wearing 2010 there was that sort of Chinese wall stew. You were working there, you know, just before that. And there wasn't a lot of, you know, swapping of I P, if you will. They were sort of treating them as unequal player to net app and everybody else out there. Tod Nielsen used to say, for every dollar spent on of'em were licensed, 15 spent an ecosystem. You don't hear that kind of narrative anymore, you hear we're crushing the HC. I vendor where number one basically a sort of backhand to Nutanix We heard on the on the keynote Very tight integration VX rail project Dimension So much, much tighter integration since Pat Tell Singer joined VM. Where from the emcee lots has changed >> will be a lot of research on reporting leading up to the show around Cloud two point. Oh, I'll see Dev. Ops is willing to home of the dimension on enterprise scale, the number of acquisitions of'em wears made and then, boom. They dropped two monsters on the table or the 11th hour pivotal for 2.7 billion carbon black for 2.1 billion. Lot of stories in those AK was other acquisitions, your analysis and how that played out today on the >> Kino. As Dave said when we started coming to this event back in 2010 you know, the virtual machine was the center of the universe. What were these servers that it lived on, how to storage and network and get fixed to be ableto live in that environment And the keynote. It was a lot of cloud, you know, John, we brought in a lot of the Cloud camp people that first year and some people were like, Why are we talking about Cloud? This is VM World, and we're like, Well, this is the future. And today we're not talking about V EMS at the center we're talking about containers were talking about cloud native applications, that multi cloud world absolutely something that pack l singer did. Front center actually felt it almost glossed over a little bit of the H C, I and NSX and all these wonderful things. Sure, there was some big del pieces in there. The M word cloud on Delhi emcee the Del Di are, you know, data protection, power protect, you know, into the VM where peace something that you definitely would not have seen under the old emcee Federation model. So Michael Dell, absolutely having his strong footprint here. Dave's done a lot of analysis talking about things like Pivotal getting pulled in and like so many different acquisitions, Pivotal came out of'em wear and, you know, carbon black Boston based companies so many different pieces here to get them talking about applications and where Veum, where the company sits in this multi cloud world where they're trying to be, you know, maintain their relationship with us. >> Let's get into the analysis on the whole ecosystems. I really want to dig into the work. Dave, you didn't and the team did. But let's go through the keynote first. So my personal opinion was it felt like, um, I'll give him a C plus Pat because it just didn't have a lot of meat. In my opinion, it felt like it was too much tech for good, although super important to have that mission driven stuff I think is really valuable as the market tends to look >> at tech >> as bad actors. I thought that was addressing. That was a positive thing, but it felt too much. I didn't see a lot of specifics. It felt do is and David, if they were hiding something, they were putting a lot of it didn't seem like there's a lot of substance coming out specifically around how Kubernetes was going to be impacted. Specifically, how Cooper is going to sit within the VM where ecosystem products specifically I just didn't feel like the product side was there. >> Well, you know what? I'll say it, John and General, I agree with you because Day one usually is here is the company vision. And if the vision is kubernetes, well, we've been hearing kubernetes for a bunch of years. Kubernetes is not the answer. Kubernetes is an enable ionizing technology job. Ada, who we up on stage? You know, we had him on the Cuban. He's like, look committed. This is not a magic layer. It's this thin layer that's gonna help us go between clouds. Getting into some of their future projects is something I usually would expect on Day two, the vision of V. M. Whereas a company, it feels like we're in that transition from who do you want a big tech for? Good? That that's great stuff. You know, Pat has a long history of talking about, you know, that moral compass that he has and wants the company to live. That which is a good change from many of the Silicon Valley companies. But, you know, I didn't get a strong feel for their vision and it was not >> a conservative. They didn't want to actually put a position down there because I think everyone in the hallway that I talked to wants to know how Cooper is gonna impact the sphere for instance, is gonna change the makeup of the sphere. And what's the impact on the product side the head that stat about bare metal being 8%. I was like, a little bit biased. Maybe there, So are they. They tiptoeing. Dave, you think? I mean, the spend numbers show that if you could just hold the line for 24 months and the new trends won't take away from that license, I mean, is it a tactical thing? Or do you think that here's the >> thing? I want to go back? I do want to give'em where? Props on one thing and you've used this term to If you go back to 8 4009 Paul Maritz talked about. We're building the software mainframe and passed them pretty consistent about that they used, they said, Any workload, any app? What's different today than back then is, he said, any workload, any up any cloud. Really. Cloud wasn't as much of a factor back then, but that vision has been fairly consistent it to you. Answer your question, Veum. We're spending remains strong, you know they're spending data that we shared with the GT R on silicon angle yesterday and today is that 41% of the VM were installed. Base is going to spend Maurine the second half of 2019 and only 7% are going to spend less. Okay, that's a real positive. But at the same time, the data clearly shows that cloud is negatively impacting VM wear spend and so that's a real threat. So multi club Pat said today technologists who Master Master Multi Cloud will own the next decade. He's talking to his audience. I'm not sure I agree with that. How much you're mastering Multi Cloud is what's gonna be the determining factor to own the next decade. >> Well, I'm stumped. Stick with my position. That multi cloud is not a reality. I think it's really more overhyped, and our actually just started to be hyped and probably will be then over hypes. And then seven years from now we'll start seeing multiple clouds truly interoperable. But I think multi cloud is we find on the Cuba simply enterprises have multiple vendors and multiple environments that happen to be those vendors have cloud, so I don't think it actually is an operating model yet. But again, just like on the Cube 2012 stew. We talked about hybrid Cloud. I called. I asked, yes. When was it a halfway house of the weigh station? He had a connection. >> So gassy. So, John, here's what I say. Number one is customers today absolutely have multiple clouds. But for multi cloud, to be a reality multi cloud must be greater than the sum of just the piece is that it's made up today and absolutely were not there. Today. VM wear has a strong reason why it should be at the center of that discussion. But they're gonna be right at loggerheads with Red Hat and Microsoft and Google and Cisco in that kind of debate at the multi cloud >> and we had, we had a story on our special report on silicon angle dot com. Check it out. It's called Coping With Multi Cloud. Were coping was by design. Coping as a mechanism used to deal with uncertainty. Coping strategies is what CEOs are going to deal with. But read that post. But in it I kind of see. I mean, I kind of agree and disagree. We have two perspectives, Dave developing. You want to get your thoughts butts do on this C I ose that come from a traditional I t background tend to like multi vendor things because they know they don't want lock. And they're afraid if you then swing to the progressive side si SOS, for instance, who are have a gun to their head in terms of security, they're all saying no, we're betting on one cloud and we'll have backup clouds, but our development staff is gonna build stacks. Have AP eyes, and we'll share those AP ice to our suppliers. Cloud vendors are saying Support our specs. So to spectrums the old school I t. Guys saying Multi vendor equals multi cloud. And then then, on the other end, See says to say, I'm gonna build technology and build a stack, exposed FBI's and let the clouds support my my tooling that not the other way around your thoughts. I >> pulled a quote in my piece That's on Silicon angle as well. From David. If lawyer and he was defining a hybrid multi cloud, he said, any application of application service can run on any note of the hybrid cloud without rewriting re compiling a re testing. My argument would be you're never gonna have that North Star without a high degree of homogeneity. And there's three examples of high degrees of homogeneity in hybrid Cloud. Today it's azure stack. It's clouded customer, and it's outposts. You're so this idea that we're gonna have this diverse set of clouds and yet they're all gonna run is one to me. I ask, Is it technically feasible? And is it Is it practical? >> Well, Steve, Steve Harry was on his Hey had announced the signal. FX has come. Portfolio can be sold on a big deal to split when he was on The Cube with me last week and he said one of them looking back on the 10 years that 1 may be M where great was virtual ization allowed for massive efficiencies and improvements without rewriting the apse. The question today's point is, is that a reality? Can what's next? So that that next gain that's not gonna require people to rewrite their APs >> well and that actually not rewriting the axes where VM or has its strength. Because, you know, I I made a joke during the keynote. It was like you have a V M insert magic. Congratulations. You now have a cloud workload because I just did. VM were cloud and it's the same app. But on the other hand, that's actually been my biggest dig on V M. Where is the long pole? In the tent and modernization is modernizing wraps. And that is that Tom Zoo that Veum were announced. They're taking bit Nami and pivotal because we do need to modernize the application. If you have an application, you've been running long enough that your users are complaining about it. We need to modernize that. VM wear has not been much of enabler of that pivotal. Yes, absolutely. That's what the cloud Foundry Labs, the pivotal Labs has been doing for years. It is a tough thing to do. That's what the developers we hear it Amazon. They're building new abs. I don't hear modern building new app at VM where, but they are moving in that >> direct question for you guys and John you in particular, but also used to as well followed AWS probably more closely than any two people I know, Pat said. Strength, lies and differences, not similarities. I've noted many differences in philosophy between A. W S and V M. where they're both winning in the market place. We know a divorce is growing much faster, but a divorce doesn't believe in multi cloud. A Devil's doesn't believe security is broken. That's that's VM wears narrative VM where says it wants to be the best infrastructure and develop our software company. That's kind of like eight of us is the platform for that. They both want to be the security cloud, and and VM were said today they have 10,000 cloud data centers, and I'm guessing that Andy Jassy wouldn't think that many of those data centers are cloud data centers. Your thoughts on the differences between between A. W S s philosophy and VM wears narrative. And can they both? Is there enough market for them both to win? >> Well, it's strikingly different. I mean, AWS is just in a breed of its own. VM wears hedging and playing there their bets. They're kind of putting, you know, bets on each horse, right? Interesting enough in the cloud thing. There was no mention of Google Cloud. I didn't see that mentioned there. Andi was speculation. Wouldn't Oracle be great partnering with Google? That's not a rumor. I'm just kind of put it out there. That would be a good combination partnership, given the Oracle's cloud is failing miserably, I think v M. Where because of the operating leverage in the enterprise, has that operational layer down to me, Amazon is the model, the future, because they are clearly born with a dev ops mindset. They have an environment where developers can build applications and they could operate. It scale with all the efficiencies of operations. So I think cloud to foreigners were calling. It is all about having developers and operational excellence without a lot of disruption or re platforming. So I think that's where the differences are. You have company that have toe have to work with this world of legacy applications, and that requires first lift and shift, which doesn't become attractive. Then you add containers on the game changes. So I think container ization really was, I think, the seminal moment in the shift where where you got kubernetes and containers. So let the enterprise cloud. Native guys get in and have an operational framework that takes advantage of the horsepower of public cloud, which is computing storage, which is why we think networking and security will be the absolute focus areas for Cloud two point. Oh, and Amazon is just dominating the depth and the ops. And I don't think anyone is coming close. >> I'd love to hear your thoughts, too, but I just got caught. I don't think Oracles Cloud is failing miserably. I think it's I wouldn't say it that way. I think their infrastructures of service is irrelevant and the cloud is all about SAS. But just, you know, that's what I think. Waken debate that somebody >> has been great for the Oracle customers. But in terms of all metrics in terms of public and enterprise, cloud with multiple environments nonstarter. >> So there's a bit of a schism out there if you talk to customers. There are many customers when they deploy in Public Cloud, although uses, you know, compute storage and, like the identity management and that's it. And they'll stop and I talkto you con many customers that are using kubernetes so that if they want to hit the eject button, but they're all on Amazon today, so it's not like they're all fleeing Amazon or doing it. But we talked to lots of developers that are deep in aws they're using those service is they're using Lambda and they're building it. So how deep will they go? And that's where I look at this VM we're offering. And it's if I'm gonna take the sphere and extend that with kubernetes. I saw Cuba. Well, um, actually in the Twitter stream said it is, you know, cloud lock in to Dato is what we get if we do that. Because the whole reason VM were originally created called Foundry. So they didn't have to take that entire V's fear colonel and put it everywhere. So it's a nice bridge. That van, where has the partnership they have with AWS is a great strategy. But I still think it is a bridge to an ultimate solution where they'll still use the M where the embers not going anyway. But that shift of where my application live in what service is I do is going to change a lot over the next 3 to 5. >> Let's not lose sight, Dave, of where we are in the industry. I mean, we're at VM World 2019. We go to reinvents coming up. We kind of live in a tech bubble in the sense that all this stuff is all kind of great skating to where the puck is gonna be. But the reality is in most I tea shops, and again, I use ceases as a proxy in my mind, because they're in the cutting edge of all the real critical nature of security, of the impact that harm that could happen to a company. So I look at sea. So she's more of a canary in the coal mine for trends than the nutritional CEO. At this point, most enterprises are just trying to rationalize kubernetes, generally speaking like never mind, like making a centerpiece of their entire architecture. They're looking at their existing environment saying, Hey, I got V EMS that did great for me. Serve a consolidation enabled more efficiency, not rewriting code. Now what? I gotta do kubernetes and do all this other stuff. How do I suspect my VM with kubernetes? Is it on bare metal? So I think we're way ahead right now. In the narrative, I think the reality is that people catch up. That's where the proof is gonna come into. That's why the customer survey numbers are interesting. >> Keep keep. Townsend is set on the Cube VM, where moves at the speed of the CEO, so they're not moving too far ahead of them, but they are key heating up with them. >> Let me share some data to share some data so you could go to Silicon Angle. Look at the V M World 2019 90 spending survey containers, Cloud NSX and pivotal its data from Enterprise Technology Research that we analyzed. There's no evidence right now that Container's air hurting VM wear. But then that was the narrative that containers are gonna kill the M where but long term. There's real threats there. So that's what the pivotal acquisition, at least in part was about. I want to address the pivotal acquisition cause we haven't dug into it a little bit a cz, Much as I'd like to see. There's really three things there. One pivotal was struggling. You look at the stock price, you look at their buying patterns, you know the stock was down that not even close to their original AIPO price, so they wanted to get out of the public eye right now would not be on that 30 day shot clock. The second is it's a hedge on containers. And the third is it's a financial scheme. I mean, I'll call it that VM wears paying $800 million in cash for an asset that's worth $4 billion. How can that be? Well, they already owned 15% of pivotal there. Give. They're exchanging stock. So their trade trading paper to Adele in exchange for Dell's 70% ownership in Pivotal. So they pick up this asset, and it's basically a forced migration by Michael Del, who controls 96% of the voting shares. So there's all kinds of inside nuance going on there that nobody's really talked about it a >> great deal for Of'em. Where and Michael Dell? It's >> a very good deal for VM wear and Michael Dell. >> Let's unpack that are rapidly. >> Just did the one piece on that, right, because kubernetes it was the elephant, the room that was damaging what Pivotal was doing. VM were made a couple of acquisitions VM where needs to react at, so it made sense to pull out back in. Even if it does go against some of the original mission, that Cloud Foundry and Pivotal had to be able to be that cloud native without that full strong time, >> it's all about building apse, right? It's all about enabling developers. >> Let's on that note. Let's go around the horn and talk about what we expect from the emerald this year. And then we'll kick off three days of wall to wall coverage. I'll start, I expect. And I'm not looking for is how VM wear and its ecosystem and who's really deep in the ecosystem, who's kind of independent and neutral, what they're doing with their containers and kubernetes play. Because I think the container revolution that was started with Dr Absolutely is very relevant to the C i o and the Sea. So so and then how they're using data in that in their applications. So you know how VM Way wants to position themselves on the control plane, how that fits in the NSX. I think containers in the container ization is going to change. I think bare metal is gonna be a super important topic in the next couple of years. Dio I'm kind of swinging back to the my feeling that you know, hyper convergence what it did for server storage networking back when you were calling those those moves. I think that kind of hyper convergence mentality is coming up the stack, and I think Containers and the Kubernetes Chess Board will will play out. >> I think if you my feelings, if you don't own a public cloud, you better convince your customers in your ecosystem that the future is in our definition of cloud, which is multi cloud. And that's what this VM world to me is all about. >> Yeah, you know, Veum wears taking their software state and trying to live in all of those cloud world. So you know, V. Amar has 600,000 customers and they want to be the ones to educate them on the kubernetes containers. You know you're at modernization, but there's a lot of other places customers can learn about this. No one understand where VM wear really adds value beyond all of those pieces, because all the cloud platforms have their kubernetes. >> A lot of other places, like the public cloud. That's where all the action >> exactly comes back down the cloud 2.0 Dev and ops developers and operations all come together with software. Thank you. Breaking it down here for three days. Wall to wall coverage here in Moscow north to set celebrating our 10th year covering VM World. Thanks for watching stay with us from or action after this short break.

>> live from Las Vegas, Nevada. It's the Cube covering E M C. World 2015. Brought to you by E. M. C Brocade and D. C. >> You're watching E m C World Live here on the Q. Looking Angles Flagship program. We go out to the event they start the season noise. I'm John Kerry of my coast Dude. Minutemen. Our next guest is a cube. Alumni have been on a cute many times before and back again. 2011 John Thompson is the CEO of Virtual Instruments and also the chairman of a company called Microsoft. Um, welcome back to the cubes. Nice to be about Great to see you in the A M World week didn't interview on Virtual Instruments with CEO, and we were really riffing on this whole idea of data instrumentation. And we it was really free Internet of things. So give us the update. What's going on with virtue Instruments here? I see Microsoft has a conference going on ignite. Even though you're chairman. The board. You're also the CEO of Virgin Instruments and you're gonna do some business here. What's going on? What business are you doing? Well, this is an important conference for virtual instruments. DMC is one of our strongest go to market partners, and candidly, many of their customers are virtual instruments customers. And so it's an opportunity for me to be here to spend time with our partners and our customers in one venue. Our business is doing quite well. We just had a very, very strong March quarter, which is always a little bit of a down quarter for most tech companies. But we were up 27 28% year over year for the calendar. Q. One so we feel pretty good about that. This is the most important quarter of the year, though, which is always the case in Texas. So we're hoping that we can knock the ball out of the park again this quarter. We launched our virtual wisdom for platform in the spring of last year, and it is gaining tremendous traction, certainly in the U. S. And around the globe. It is all about health utilization in performance of the infrastructure, and we've defined a model where you can look at an application inside that infrastructure, monitor its performance and its availability, and that idea is so critical in a world where everything will someday live in the cloud and will you will want to assure a level of performance and, quite frankly, a level of responsiveness to customers as they come on says it's a reset to share the folks out. This is not a new concept for you guys. We talked about this years ago. It's not like you woke up one boys. Hey, things is trendy. This data center in fermentation takes us quickly back. Where did it come from? Was an itch to scratch. What original product as you have and how does that morph into today's crazy, data driven world, where dash boring riel time is actually competitive advantage and now table stakes? Well, if you were to go back to the genesis of virtual instruments, we started as a small technology investment inside a larger company called Venice are that was trying to solve the inevitable performance problem in the fibre channel world. And as the market crashed in 7 4008 the team at Venice or had to decide, how are we gonna clean up our portfolio? And the result waas. They sold off the assets? Were we, in fact, created virtual instruments. So a small group of investors, led by Jim Davidson from Silver Lake and Michael Marks from Riverwood, helped to fund the original investment and virtual instruments. We've been at it now for about seven years. We have clearly evolved the product quite a bit since then, and we've captured a number of very, very strong venture capital investment so long away as we made the choice. That said, we need the shift from being a fiber channel company to be in an infrastructure performance management company because the inevitable movement to the cloud will drive an opportunity for us. Yeah, and you're a senior executive private equity. I mean, this is pretty much a big bet. There's a lot of money involved with private equity. So it wasn't like you're, like, throw in the Silicon Valley startup together. It was really like, Okay, there's big money behind it. Well, you guys, did you see it turning out this way? What? What was learning that have been magnified from that trajectory? Well, I think in the early days we thought the path was a little different than what we've actually followed. We thought the path waas that the fibre channel World was so big and it needed better visibility. This would in fact give the world better visibility in the fibre channel space. What we have observed, however, is that the entire infrastructure has become Maur and more opaque, and therefore you need to not just drive visibility in the storage layer, but across the entire converge staff. And so the platform that we have evolved is all about supporting this converged platform not just fibre Channel, but filed a storage not just VM where, but all virtualized server environments. And we believe that's, ah, multibillion dollar market. And that's why we were able to attract both private equity initially and venture capital later as we built out of product. It's interesting. You see some of these ideas come a come around full circle. I'm curious. Just in industry trend. Your your opinion on Veritas, you know, being spun out. It's it's It's both sad for me personally, but I think it speaks to how difficult the cultural integration might have been between the two companies. While I really had a vision back in the old four or five days of security and backup coming together, I think It was a really, really difficult thing to make happen in the context of what has evolved at Samantha, so the fact that they've chosen to spend it out, it's perhaps a little disappointing for me personally, but not a surprise. So what is your vision of security today? My understanding, You advise, even sit on the board of ah Lumia company. We've way we've talked to the company really, what's happening in security. So if you think about how security has evolved once upon a time, it was about protecting the device candidly and a cloud based world. It's going to be more about protecting the workloads as they move around. And that's one of the elements of what a lumia does, in fact, provide. Furthermore, I have believed for a very, very long time that as time goes on, security will have to get closer and closer to that which is deemed to be most critical. In other words, you can't protect all of the data. You can't protect all of the instances that air on the Web, but you can identify those that are most critical and therefore need a level of protection beyond what the standard would be. And so my belief is that companies like a Loom EO and others that will evolve will get closer to the workload, and we'll get closer to the data that's most critical. And so data classification and things of that nature will become much, much more important than they have. You're an investor in aluminum. You on the board are okay, so you're on the board of director and investor. We covered their launch. Great company. The cracking is low slides, as as Alan Cohen would say, they phenomenal funding round gone from stealth two years and now the big $100,000,000 really funding round massive guerrilla marketing. Still going on at the air say, was kind of clever. The perimeter lists cloud is a factor. And what tech enabled? Do you see the key thing? Alan Cohen described it as 1000 foot shoulds soldiers protecting assets because there's no more perimeter that no front door any more. What is the technology driver for that? Well, the whole idea behind the loom Eo, is to have a what I would call a portable policy enforcement engine that can move as the workload moves around the cloud. So policy management, security policy management has been a very, very difficult task for most large enterprises. So if I can define security policies for every server of where workloads can go to and from on that server and make sure that nothing violates that policy, hence I enforce it routinely. Oh, I can change. The dynamic of House security gets delivered in a cloud based world because no workload is gonna run in any single place on a cloud world. That workload is gonna move to where there is capacity to handle. I gotta ask you because we have a lot of people out there that follow tech business test tech athletes that you are. But also, you're a senior executive who has a lot of experience, and we could be presenting to Harvard Business School, Stanford Business School. I want to get your kind of business mind out to the audience. And that is, is that as an executive who's seen the big, big companies, the big battleships, the big aircraft carriers, from the IBM days to the M in a world of the nineties and the transformation of the Internet now in a complete shift, an inflection point with things like a Loom, Eo and Cloud and and Virtual instruments and the new Microsoft and the Silicon Angles and the crowd shots out there, What do you advise managers out there to operate from a management perspective. I mean, there's a classic business school numbers quarter on the challenges of going public, managing enormous dynamic technology change. So every theater is kind of exploding the technology theater, the business theater, the social theater as an executive. How would you advise someone as a CEO are rising growing startup how they should stitch themselves together? If you can draw in from previous experiences? Or is there a pattern recognition you can share? Well, it's It's never simply about the numbers, while the numbers air always important and the numbers will always be the underpinning of evaluation or whatever. In reality, it's about having a team that is able to rally around a leader with vision that says, Here's how we're gonna change the world. Here's how we're going to make an impact as this industry goes through, the natural inflection points that it always does. And if you look at what has occurred in this industry about every 8 to 10 years, something significant changes. And so a company that may have missed an opportunity six or eight years ago has another shot at it six or eight years later because of the inflection points that we go through. So it's important for the leader of a company toe. Believe that I can change the world based upon the industry that I'm a part of and have a compelling point of view about what changing the world means for that company and that team. And if you could get the team together around that idea, what about cloud and big data and mobile thes dynamics that you would? If someone just wants a roadmap for navigation or what decked me to go after, What would you say? What do you say? You know, get it all in the cloud or go poke at a duel are indeed new, agile management. Things were happening like, Well, I think it starts with what are the court confidence is that you have as a team or company, so you can't say g I'm gonna go and do cloud and oh, by the way, I have no confidence in the management infrastructure for large enterprises or I'm gonna go do mobile and I really have no experience in the mobile space whatsoever. So core competencies matter and leveraging the core strengths of the company matters now. Oftentimes, what companies will do its supplement their core strengths through M, and we'll go out and acquire something and bolted on the hard part of M and A, which is what we were referencing early around. Veritas is Can you integrate it? Can you really make it work after you bought it? Buying it is the easy part. Generating it and making it work is the really, really tough part. And arguably we didn't do is good a job as I would have liked with Samantha. And so basically you're saying is if you as an executive, you want to look at the winds of change for hand, get the sails up, if you will, to confuse the metaphor and get into that slipstream so you can actually drive and you can't. Being an amateur, you gotta actually have some competency. You have a leverage point. Look, one of the great things about this industry is it doesn't take some brilliant business leader to create a new idea. I mean, no one ever would have viewed Zucker Bird as a business leader or some of the young, really, really powerful CEO built phenomenal, phenomenal companies in this industry. But they had an idea, and they were able to create a team around that idea and go change the world. And that's what's so powerful about this industry that I've had the pleasure to be a part of for 40 some years. Yes. Speaking about CEOs that changed the industry, John Chambers announced that he's stepping aside from the CEO role this morning. So you know when you look back, you know John was one of the four horsemen of the Internet era and 20 years there. Chuck Robbins is coming in. He's been there since C. I think 97. What do you think of that move? And you know what's happening with Cisco in leadership for the big companies? Well, John's a really, really good friend, and I admire him for all of what he's done and Cisco and I wish him well as he makes this transition. Interestingly enough, the transition is to executive chairman, with the new CEO stepping in so What that says is that John plans that have a little more involvement, perhaps in what goes on in the company. Then I do it. Microsoft. My title is not executive chairman of Microsoft. Thank goodness I wouldn't want it to. But it also speaks to the fact that John spend the CEO. It just goes since 1995 like that. So he has an enormous amount of knowledge and insight about the company industry, its customers, partners, culture, all of those culture. And so all of those things will be valuable and important to the new CEO. And I think him stepping into that role is trying to leverage that. Cenedella came in and made his voice heard really instantly. And Microsoft has been a great company to watch, you know, since Auntie's came on board, you know, just Cisco need to make some bold moves or are they pretty stable where they are is kind of the dominant? That's a better question for John and CEO. I think what is clear is that all all companies, at some point after find a way to redefine and Sasha's role at Microsoft. He has redefined Microsoft as a cloud first mobile first, and that's all about recognizing. Were acts are gonna run on what devices and what kind of service is. And that redefinition, I think, is important for any industry leader, regardless of how long you just brought us to the tagline of this show, M C World is redefined. So any comments, How's the emcee doing it? Redefining themselves, I think the emcees a terrific company. Joe's a longtime friend of mine. I mean, I know Joe forever on. It's been amazing to see how it's gone from being a storage company to this federation of companies that have capabilities that are so broad and so diverse. I hope they don't get pushed to do something that isn't in the best interest of customers, but maybe enamored by some investors. The angel of the activist pressure. Yeah, that's always and that that's unfortunate, but I think they have a nice balance now. They have a huge installed base and this competitive pressure so they gotta push that. But I have to. I have to ask, is that? You know, I was getting some tweets earlier about Microsoft, and I know you, you know, you're only chairman of the board executive chairman. But you were involved in a very historic where you were on the executive search committee for the CEO replacement for Steve Balmer, of which they chose sake. Nutella Cube alumni We interviewed at the XL Partners Innovation Summit in Stanford that that's about culture. That's about transitions, about inflection points. And Sister used to mention Cisco. Not similar situation. But Microsoft is the legend company. I think the computer industry like an apple. Microsoft was their big part of the computer revolution. Big seismic changing. You were right there. Just share some color on what that whole experience like for you personally. And if you can share any insights to the audience, I know it's a sense might be sensitive topic. But what's that like? And, you know, the outcomes. Looking good. As he says, he's doing great. What? What can you share? Well, I think it would be fair to say that it was a more consuming process than I ever thought it would be. I went from being a new board member of Microsoft in the spring of 2012 to be in the lead independent director in the fall of 2012 to leading the search starting in the summer of 2013. I mean, I never could have imagine my involvement there changing that dramatically, Nor would I have imagined that searching for a CEO of a company would consume 80% of my time when I was also running a company. So for a period of about six months, it's like athlete right there. I had two full time jobs where I was on the phone all day, every day, trying to get something done for the eye and on the phone all day, every day, trying to get something done for Microsoft as well. It was, I would also have to say and incredibly incredibly exhilarating experience. I talked to some phenomenal leaders from around the world way had hard, long look anywhere we wanted at any CEO or candidate that we wanted, and we settled on someone who was a Tech athlete. We believe that the company was at a really, really important inflection point where over the course of the next 12 to 24 months, we're gonna have to make some really, really important technology decisions that would set the course from Microsoft for many, many years to come. And so, while there was much speculation in the press about this person or that person, and what a great business leader, that person waas What we, as a board concluded, was that what our company needed at that moment in time was a true technology visionary who could drive the strategy of the company because it had assets. I mean, they had a whole search thing that they quote missed on paper. But they had, like you said, they could come back at it again with being the subtle art of assets. Here, Cloud was built out. Everything was kind of like in place for that tech athlete on. And I think soccer has done an amazing job. I'm quite proud of them. I'm happy toe say I have some small part in that, but I'm or happy for the way he has executed in the job. I mean, he steps into the job with a level of humility but confidence that is so important for the CEO of a company of that size, and to maintain that cultural DNA because you have one of most competitive companies on the planet. A question to the point where they had to be almost broken up by the DOJ from the Bill Gates kind of DNA and bomber to continued, be competitive, live in this new era. Really tough challenge. Well, he's he's a bright guy. He, as I said, has great humility and has the respect of the team. And it's been interesting to see the internal shift behavior and attitude with a guy who I jokingly say he has two ears and one mouth and he uses them proportionately. And that's a very important lesson for someone trying to transform a company. You must listen more than you talk, and I think he does a great job. We try to do that. The Cuban we talk all day long way do interviews, but I gotta ask you back to virtual instruments. Okay, gets a good business going on with the emcee Goto partner about the anywhere in the federation of a partner with you as well, say, Is it all Federation? It's mostly through E M. C. And while the em wears of small V I customer, we don't do much with them on the go to market side on the go to market side. We rely more heavily, if you will. On AMC, that partnership has evolved. I mean, from the early days it was viewed as G. We're not sure who you are and what you do and whether or not you're competitive with us today, we have very, very common go to market processes around the globe. I'd love to see them stronger. I just left to cheese office in San GI Joe. We could doom. Or but when it's when it's all said and gone, this is one of the strongest go to market partners we have that's also shared the folks out there what they might not know about insurance, that you could share their hearing this now for the first time and working on the radar future of your business, your division product, extensive bility. Future of Internet of everything. Future Internet of things, whatever you want to put on a big data and the data center now, and the migration of cloud is all here. So at our core, we believe that every large enterprise will inevitably have some, if not all, of their work in the class. So the question is, how do you help them manage that inevitable migration to the cloud by de risking the migration and ensuring appropriate infrastructure performance management. Once you arrive there, we focus on the largest enterprises in the world. So unlike many tech startups, that will start with a midsize or small company and work their way up well, the largest banks in the universe, the largest insurance companies in the universe, the largest of every sector in the universe is a customer of the eye or will be someday. And that notion of solving very, very complex problems is something that our team has great pride in our ability to do that I want to get philosophical with you. You can for second kind of sit back and, you know, have a glass of wine and kind of talk to the younger generation out there with all your history on experience. How great of an opportunity for the young entrepreneurs and CEOs out there right now. Given the the confluence of the shift and inflection points, can you compare this to an error? We on the Cubes say It's like the PC revolution bundled in with the clients, terrorists and the Internet. All kind of at once do you agree? And would you say it? Guys, you have an amazing opportunity. Well, I think example of just how crazy it is. I I was driving to the airport this morning, and what I thought would be our long drive took two hours. Because there's so many people on the road in the Valley going to work. There's just so much going on in Silicon Valley right now. It is amazing. And for anyone who has a really, really great idea, the thing that's equally amazing is there's lots of capital out there to support those ideas. And so I would encourage any young entrepreneur who has a thought socialize your thought, Get it out so people can learn about it and then go get money to support and back that though. There's lots of money out there for good ideas. Lots of money. \ewelry officially taking the time coming out. Your busy schedule. CEO Virtual Instruments, chairman of Microsoft Here inside the Cube tech athletes is a big deal. You are one of the great great. Always have a conversation with you, sharing your thanks so much. Just the Cuban. Be right back with more insights and the signal from the noise at this short break