>>Welcome everyone to the cubes coverage of women in data science, worldwide conference 2022. I'm Lisa Martin, coming to you live from Stanford university at the Arriaga alumni center. It's great to be back at widths in person, and I'm pleased to welcome fresh from the main stage Tiara Bill's assistant professor at UCLA Tierra. Welcome to the program. >>I'm glad to be here. Thank you for having me. Tell >>Me a little bit about your background. You're a civil engineer and I was telling you, so it was my dad. So I'm, I'm partial to civil engineers, but give our audience an overview of your background, what you studied and all that. Good. >>Yeah. So I'm a civil engineer, um, specifically transportation engineer, um, at UCLA. I also have an appointment in the public policy department. And so, um, I'm split between the two, my work focuses on travel demand modeling and how to use these tools to better inform, uh, and learn more about transportation equity and how to advance transportation equity. Um, and what that means is that we are prioritizing the needs of vulnerable communities, um, in terms of the data that we're using, the models that we're using to guide decision-making, um, in terms of the very projects that we evaluate and ultimately the decisions that we make to invest in certain transportation improvements. How >>Did you get interested in transportation equity? >>Yeah, so I think it, it stems from growing up, uh, in Detroit, some or Detroit born and raised native, and it stems from growing up in an environment where it was very clear that space matters that where you live the most, that you have access to, uh, whether you have a car or not. Um, whether you have flexibility in your, in your travel, it all matters. And it all governs the opportunities that you have access to. So it was very clear to me, um, when I would realize that certain certain kids didn't really leave their neighborhood, you know, they didn't travel about the city, let alone outside of the city and abroad. And so, um, and there are also other, you know, examples of, um, there are examples and cases after case where it's clear that communities are, um, being exposed to a high level of emissions, for example, um, that might result from transportation, but they're not positioned to benefit, um, in the same ways that the people who own the infrastructure on the freight or what have you. So, um, these are all very real experiences that have motivated my interest in transportation equity. >>Interesting. It's something I actually had never thought about, but you bring up a great point. How are talk to me about the travel demand models, how they're relevant and, and where some of the biases are in travel data, >>Right? So travel demand models, they are they're computational tools. They're empirically estimated meaning that their estimated from raw data, um, everything about them is driven by the data that you have access to. And how they're used is in largely in regional transportation planning, when it is necessary for regions to assess 10, maybe 15, 20 years into the future. Um, how is transportation going to change as a result of changes in travel patterns, growth in the population, um, changes and how firms are distributed across the landscape. Um, environmental changes, all sorts of changes that, um, that guide and direct our transportation decisions at an individual level. So regions are assessing these things over time and they need these powerful travel demand models in order to perform those assessments. And then they also, once they have an understanding of what the need is, because for example, they expect traffic congestion to improve, or sorry to increase over time. Um, there needs to be a means of assessing alternatives for mitigating those issues. And so they use the same types of models to understand if we expand highway capacity, if we, uh, build a new form of transit, is that going to mitigate, uh, the challenges that we're going to face in the future >>And travel demand, modeling and equity? What's the connection there? I imagine there's a pretty good >>Deep connection, right? So the connection is that. So we're using these tools to decide on the future of transportation investments and because of a history of understanding that we have around how ignoring the conditions for vulnerable communities, ignoring how, um, uh, transportation decisions might differentially impact different, different groups, different segments. Um, if we ignore that, then it can lead to devastating outcomes. And so I'm citing, um, examples of the construction of the Eisenhower interstate system back in the fifties and sixties, where, uh, we know today that there were millions of black and minority communities that were, uh, displace. Um, they weren't fairly compensated all because of lack of consideration for, for outcomes to these communities and the planning process. And so we are aware that these kinds of things can happen. Um, and because of that, we now have federal regulations that require, uh, equity analysis to occur for any project that's going to leverage federal funding. And so it's, it's tied to our understanding of what can happen when we don't focus on equity is also tied to what the current regulations are, but challenge is that we need better guidance on how to do this, how to perform the equity analysis. What types of improvements are actually going to move the needle and advance us toward a state where we can prioritize the needs of the vulnerable travelers and residents? What >>Excites you about the work that you're doing? >>You know, I, I have a vested interest in seeing conditions improve for, um, for the underdog, if you will, for folks who, um, they, they work hard, but they still struggle, um, for folks who experience discrimination in different forms. Um, and so I have a vested interest in seeing conditions improve for them. And so I'm really excited about, uh, the time that we're in, I'm excited that equity is now at the height of many discussions, um, because it's opening up resources, right? To have, uh, more folks paying attention, more folks, researching more folks, developing methods and processes that will actually help to advance equity, >>Advancing equity. We definitely need that. And you're right. There's, there's good V visibility on it right now. And let's take advantage of that for the good things that can come out of it. Talk to me a little bit about what you talked about in your talk earlier today here at widths. >>Right? So today I got a chance to elaborate on how travel demand models can end up, um, uh, with, with issues of bias and under-representation, and it's tied to a number of things, but one of them is the data that reusing, because these are, uh, empirically estimated tools. They take their form, they take their, uh, significance. Everything about them is shaped by the data that we use. Um, and at the same time, we are aware that vulnerable communities are more prone to issues that contribute to data bias. And under-representation so issues, for example, like non-response, um, issues like coverage bias with means that, um, certain groups are for whatever reason, not in the sample link frame. Um, and so, because we know that these types of errors are more prevalent for vulnerable communities, it brings, uh, it raises questions about, um, the quality of the decisions that come out of these models that we estimate based on these data. >>And so I'm interested in weaving these parts together. Um, and part of it has to do with understanding the conditions that, um, that underlie the data. So what do I mean by conditions? I gave an example of, uh, cases where there is discrimination and as evidenced by the data that we have available as evidenced, uh, for example, by examining, um, the quality of service across racial groups, um, using Uber and Lyft, right? So we have information that, that, that presents this to us, but that information is still outside of what we typically use to estimate travel, demand models. That information is not being used to understand the context under which people are making decisions. It's not being used to better understand the constraints that people are facing when they're making, uh, decisions. And so what is the connection that means that we are using data, um, that does not will capture the target group. >>People who are low income, elderly, um, transit dependent, uh, we're not capturing these groups very well because of the prevalence of, of various types of survey bias. Um, and it is shaping our models in unknown ways. And so my group is really trying to make that connection between, okay, how do we collect Bader, better data, first of all, but second, what does that mean? What are the ramifications for prediction, accuracy for VR, for various groups, and then beyond that, what are the policy implications? Right. Um, I think that the risk is that we might be making wrong decisions, right? We might be assuming that, uh, certain types of improvements are actually going to improve quality of service for vulnerable communities when they actually don't. Right. Um, and so that's the worry and that's part of the unknown, and that's why I'm working in this >>Part of the anonymity. Also, I'm sure part of your passion and your interest international women's day is tomorrow. And the theme this year is break the bias of breaking the bias with >>Mercy back >>To travel equity. Where do you think we are on, on being able to start mitigating some of the biases that you've talked about? >>I think that it's all about phasing. I think that there are things that we can do now, right? And so, um, at the point of making decisions, um, we can view the results that we have through this lens, that it might be an incomplete picture. We can view it through a historical lens. We can also view it, um, using emerging data that allows for us to explore some of these constraints that, you know, might be exogenous to the models or X, not in, not included in how we estimate the models. Um, and so that's one thing that we can do in practice is okay. We already know that there are some challenges let's view this from a different lens, as opposed to assuming that it's giving us the complete picture. Right. Um, and that's kind of been my theme, uh, today is that, you know, as decision-makers, as analysts, as data scientists, as researchers, we do have tendency of assuming that the data that we have, the results that we have is giving us the complete picture when we know, but it's not, we know that we act as if it is, but we know that it's not right. >>So, you know, we need to, there's a lot of learning and changing of behaviors, um, that that has to happen. >>Changing behaviors is challenging. >>It is behavior changes is tough, but it's necessary, but it's necessary. It's necessary. And it's urgent. And it's critical, especially if you're going to, uh, improve conditions for vulnerable community. >>What are some of the things that excite you, that looking at where we are now, we've got a nice visibility on equity. There, there's the conscious understanding of the bias and data and the work to help to mitigate that. What are some of the things that excite you about what you're doing and maybe even some of the policies that you think should be enacted as a result of more encompassing datasets? >>It's a good question. Um, one thing I will say is what excites me is it's also tied to the emerging data that we have available. So I'm trying to go back to an example that I gave about measuring constraints. Think that we can now do that in interesting ways, because we're collecting data about everything we're collecting data about, um, not just about where we travel, but how we travel, why we travel. Um, you know, we, we collect information on who we're traveling with, you know, so there's a lot more information that we can make use of, um, in particular to understand constraints. So it's, it's really exciting to me. And when I say that again, um, talking about, um, how would we make a choice to take a certain mode of transportation or to leave our house at a certain time in the morning to, to get to work. >>Um, we're making that under some conditions, right? Right. And those conditions aren't always observed and traditional data sets. I think now we're at a time where emerging data sources can start to capture some of that. And so we can ask questions that we weren't able to, or answer questions that we weren't able to answer before. And the reason why it's important in the modeling is because in the models, you have this sort of choice driven side and you have the alternatives. So you're making a choice amongst some set of alternatives. We model the choices and we spend a lot of time and pay a lot of attention to the decision process. And what factors goes into making the choice, assuming that everyone really has the same set of universal choices. Right. I think that we need to take a little, pay a little more intention, um, to understanding the constraints that people have, um, and how that guides the overall outcomes. Right? So, so that's what I'm excited about. I mean, it's basically leveraging the new data in new ways that we weren't able to before >>Leveraging the data in new ways. Love it. Tierra, thank you for joining me, talking about transportation equity, what you're doing there, the opportunities and kind of where we are on that road. If you will. Thank you so much for having me, my pleasure. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the cubes coverage of women in data science conference, 2022. We'll be right back with our next guest.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 sponsored by Intel and AWS. Yeah. Welcome to the cubes. Virtual coverage of 80 was reinvent 2020. I'm John for your host. We are the Cube virtual not there in person, but we're doing remote, as is a W s. Although there there on stage live. And we're here with Dave Brown, Vice President of the Sea, to compute. Great to see you again. Great keynote last night, kicking off everything for the opening night. Great stuff. >>Yeah, well, John, it's always good to be on the Cuban. Thanks for having me back. >>You know, you're in the hot seat these days in the sense of there's so much going on. I mean, Andy, that could do a three week announcement. Keynote. It was like in three hours of nonstop you take a break to go The bathroom. You missed two announcements, right? So, so much going on. You opened up reinvent 2020 with your announcement ec2 of mac instances. And there was a ton of compute. And the theme was really you know, reinventing and reimagining compute both. I want to get into that. But let's start with the hard news. Tell me about the Mac instances. Um, you had a great use case there, That kind of illustrated in your talk. But where is this coming from? It's obviously Mac developers are big, but is this market something that you guys saw from customers or was a necessity? Take us through the thinking around the Mac instance. Easy to for Mac instances, um are going for >>absolutely absolutely So I mean me personally Matthews, a longtime Matthews that we've often thought about. Could we ever bring Mac OS to AWS? Right This thing we've spoken about on and off for many, many years and, you know, it was about a year and a half about two years ago. You know, we're always hearing new use cases from customers, and that's kind of what we're doing. So we're saying what a customer is trying to do that we don't support today, and how would we support them in that? And we started a year from customers that they have been able to successfully migrate all of the AWS workloads to AWS. So most of the server workloads to AWS and then they've got this Mac bold workload that they just weren't able to bring to us. We just didn't support Max into. It was a great example who I had on stage with me last night where you know, they over the last couple of years have been moving Ah, lot of their workloads to AWS. And and then they had these Mac money sitting around that they had to manage themselves. And so we said, could we actually do this? And so that was the one thing the customer ask. And the other thing that we realized was with the nitro system in the work that we've been doing there over the last, you know, six years, seven years since 2012, Really? And just where we are from the From nitro system point of view, we were able to wrap a Mac money without making any changes to it with nitro cards plugging a FireWire to the thunderbolt port and and and actually control that device. And so it means that you get the best of Apple hardware, which is what Apple's all about is the hard way that they make and the way that their software works with it. together with the nitric system and the cards around that inte integrating with the rest of AWS. So we're giving you, you know, high speed secure networking. We're giving you great access to elastic block store Was just integrates natively into the magma Nias? Well, a So we realized that the technology was there, the customer asked, was there and then obviously went to Apple and worked with them very closely to make it happen. And so that's kind of how it all came together. And I was incredibly excited to announce it last night. And the feedback today has just been amazing. A lot of excitement. >>Yeah, take me through the use case because, you know, obviously there's two trends going on. There's custom chips and server list kind of thing happening where you guys, I mean, really doing a good job of the eye as layer, innovating there and then platform as a service. All that software on top. I totally get that. You could see that happening. Chips custom ships to Intel, A, M, D. And others. Now you got Mac hardware. Where's the innovation use case because one would start would say, Hey, why don't you care about whether it's Mac hardware or not. Because I'm server lists. I should be programming the infrastructure actually be getting compute generically. Where does the Mac tying come in? Because that's the first question I was thinking of was, I'm a Mac user. I love Mac, but I'm also got some windows actually going on now. And ultimately, do I really care if it's compute? What's your reaction to that? Yeah, >>absolutely. I mean, if you look at Apple's ecosystem today, right, they have millions of applications in the APP store. They have 28 million developers worldwide, actually building those applications just incredible. And many of those applications, all these millions in the In the APP store itself, there's many more applications that are both by enterprises and companies, right? We have an application that we use internally at Amazon is available on my phone. That's not in the APP store, and you know, many companies are doing that and to build applications for the ecosystem, they have to be built on Mac hardware. And that's just how Apple works, right? So if you wanna build for iPad or iPhone or even Apple TV and Apple watch, you have to build those applications on a Mac. And so what we see companies doing is, you know, the old develop a meme off. Well, it works on my computer, right when you build something, you don't wanna be bullied on your local laptop for production. So they typically have a fleet of machines that they either under somebody's desk or in a data center somewhere that they use for for building these Mac applications. And so it's not possible to build a Mac application on anything other than a Mac itself. And we when we looked at it, we really didn't feel that virtualization made sense, right? Apple? I mean, they have some some virtualization that they're able to do within Mac OS itself. But if you think about how do we solve the customer use case, it's really bringing apple hardware too easy to to solve the problem and giving customers that exactly same exact same experience that they have on prep. And if you look into it like that, models just worked right. We gave them better access. Uh, you know, they've been using that data which you normally say, Hey, don't don't run production workloads on a beta. But you know, I found out if I interview with the BPS at Intuit critique that they've actually moved 80% of their production pulled wear clothes too easy to already to run on the Mac instances. And so that, and that's in the space of two months. And so, just as seamless ability to move because it's the same hardware is kind of what we were going >>after. Great, thanks for sharing that and say, one thing I wanna point out is Mac does have their own chips as well. They're going custom chips. Amazon's going custom chips. And I think I think you nailed what I was trying to understand, which is this developer community for Mac. And there's some things that are purpose built for Mac devices. So on Mac ecosystem, get the marketplace as well as you know, that that was the hardware PCs and devices, and they're only doing more and more. So this brings me to the i o t. Um, piece of it, because Apple does make devices that people wear and I watch is, um, iPhones. I mean, they're not computers anymore. They're everything. So this kind of brings up the edge conversation. So whether it's an iPhone or a five G in a Metro or I'm a stadium watching a football game and there's some sensor camera vision industrial thing there, this is the new normal. This is where you guys are kind of eating, eating up the software side that that business, because there's new capabilities here. Can you explain how compute he's, particularly C two gets to the edges because no one wants to move data around. They wanna move, compute, not data, because data is expensive and it's and it's fat. So we we talked about that we keep on years ago, but you gotta move. Compute. So how does that work Take us through your vision? >>Absolutely. And this is This is a massively growing area for us. I mean, you mentioned Apple's new M one silicon Apple silicon that they just launched a swell, and we're super excited about Apple's been doing there. We've been doing the same thing with our grab. It's on two processor and really saving customers. An incredible amount on price performance. Tried customers moving and getting 40% improvement and price performance just by moving to grab it on too. It's just incredible. Um, in terms of the edge, you know, we started this journey. We started this journey quite some time ago and bringing, you know, Lambda functions to cloudwatch and things like that. How do we bring compute to the edge? We took a look at five G, which I think it's gonna feel a lot of this right if if we look at our cell phones today was actually just talking to the Apple team yesterday with the iPhone, only came out, you know, 13 years ago. It's kind of amazing to think just how much progress we've had and what four g did for the device that's in our pocket in terms of, you know, just how much we rely on that today and what we get. Well, five g is just a step function in both in terms of latency, but also in terms of throughput. And so, you know, one of the projects we announced last year with Verizon and we now Andy announced this morning we're also gonna be rolling out with Katy D I and SK Telecom and Vodafone next year. Um is a project always like that brings aws compute to the edge of the telco network. And so with Verizon, we now have eight locations around the U. S. Where we have AWS compute capacity. And what I mean by that is literally C five instances uh, G four GPU instances for customers that want to do influence and graphics processing on the edge. And that's embedded into the five G network on DSO customers. You know, we've got a number of customers that are doing a lot of interesting things with five G in the sports area, where they have five G cameras that are, you know, submitted directly to wavelength. We no longer need to drive a truck to a stadium to record a game. You just have five G cameras, um, to, you know, automated factories where they doing robotics in factories and yet really low latency. And they don't want the computer, the factory they wanted in five G and so just exciting area for us. That's growing really, really quickly. Thea Other thing we did is obviously with local zones. We launched our first local zones in L a X last year, Los Angeles on that's being used by the movie industry, so you know right now is a lot of exciting up and running off the covert and shut down for a period of time and filming the next release of all of our favorite episodes and across all of these various streaming platforms. And a lot of that work is actually the post production is being done on on AWS on G four instances within the Los Angeles region. So, you know, very low agency for colorization animation, special effects, all that sort of things happening there. What we heard from a lot of customers was they loved outposts as well, which is our offering to put a server into a data center. And you heard from riot games in Andy's Keynote, where they actually bought a number of outposts and put them all over the U. S. And also other places of the world to really lower the Leighton see for their latest game. And so what Andy also just announced is the availability off three additional local zones. So Atlanta, Miami and Houston Sorry, Boston Miami in Houston available today, and then additional 12 available local zones next year, and what that does is that sort of spreads AWS capacity compute capacity at the edge in all of our major metropolitan hubs all of their capacities on the AWS backbone as well, but brings customers that low latency connectivity that they're looking for. Gaming developers were, you know, every every millisecond counts in terms of gameplay on so super excited to be going after that use case, which I think, you know, it's difficult to tell what the next 10 years is gonna be like. But I think Layton's he's gonna have a big part to play in the types of applications we see on our phones going forward. >>Great stuff, final question for you as we wrap up, obviously with virtualization with virtualization. But you know, the cove it is. And he pointed out, People are gonna change, is gonna be winners and losers. He kind of clearly pointed out, But the people who do lean into the cloud who have been on the cloud or taking advantage of the tail winds of cove in because of the capabilities there are two bills air higher, and you should be happy for that. But they're also gonna have more demand for you to say, Hey, I need more services. So How do you speak to those people who are leaning in who are leveraging, more, compute? What should they be looking at? What kinds of services should be connecting into compute? How should they be thinking about the future of compute so that they can take advantage of those capabilities? The lower costs, higher performance? What things are complementary for these customers as they come in, not toe dip in the water kind of things against really driving. And what do they need? >>Yeah, absolutely. And this has been a big focus on us. You know, things has bean, as I cover in my keynote, which leadership session that I'm doing tomorrow Wednesday. You know, a lot of this year has been helping customers through covert and what covert is meant for their business. Whether that is cost savings for many of them or whether it's just demand, you know that they've never experienced are expected before. I mean, we've been incredibly hard at work in servicing those customers, right? I actually catch up with Scott Sikora. In my keynote. He leads our capacity team. We talked through what it meant and how we actually provided the capacity that our customers needed during Colbert Times. But for a customer moving to us, the first thing is obviously we wanna find ways to make them very successful in the cloud, but more importantly, lower price performance for them. So what we wanted to do is give them the best possible performance that's available at the lowest possible cost. And if you look at a number of the announcements that Andy made today, you know whether it's our latest graviton processor where you can, you know, when you move to arm. I think customers often overestimate how much work it will be to move to arm. And when I talked to them after they have moved, that's ahead. Wasn't actually that much work. We actually got it up and running relatively quickly. So what's simpler than people expect? But that's an opportunity to save 40% on price performance. You know these new newer workloads like our graphics. We just launched a new G four a D, which is an AMG based GPU solution, the first time we have had an AMG GPU on the EEC too. And that's also looking to say, if you know upwards of 40% price performance of other GPU offering so just incredibly exciting for graphics, work, clothes and then in the machine learning space. Like I think, if you know, machine learning is just become the new normal, like everybody is doing it. And you know, just three years ago, everybody was thinking about whether they should do it. How would how they would use it Now that it's a lot of companies are doing it. It's really How do you How do I use it more? And that comes down to again saving costs. And so what we know with without Inferential Chip and then the new Habbaniya chip we just announced it with with the work with Intel that we're doing and then a new trainee, um, ship for training, training. We're really working to lower the cost of machine learning. And so, like we've seen many customers like Alexa was a great use case the other day. Being able to lower the cost of inference for Alexa by 35% again just helps customers, you know, move to the cloud. But I mean, just generally, you know, we're trying to support customers everywhere where there were, you know, if there are many customers are in their own data centers looking to move to AWS. You know, we have great models that can support them with our existing compute. A new savings plan offering we announced last year just great for saving costs on getting the price down So a lot. You can look at it. You know, I could go on forever. Really. It >>Certainly it's certainly is MAWR. We'll we'll do a deeper dive follow up after reinvent, but it is a wake up call. As I wrote in my post, um, for a cloud on Finally, I've been saying this for years. Horizontal scalability is a disruption on the infrastructure side, but you've got vertical specialization with data to create great modern apse of machine learning. And I actually playing out in full display here is Andy said, um, net right now. So all this benefits and all these opportunities to disrupt horizontally and then leverage the data all tied together, all coming together. You're clear. Leading the team. Great Brown, vice president of E C. Two in charge of the team that's driving the future. Compute. Thanks for coming on The Cube Cube Live coverage. Thanks. >>Thanks for having me. >>Okay. I'm John for the Q back for more live coverage after this short break

(upbeat music) >> From Santa Clara, in the heart of Silicon Valley, it's the Cube, covering the Churchills, 2019. Brought to you by Silicon Angle Media. >> Welcome back here Jeff Frick here with the Cube. We're at the Chuchill's, it's the 9th annual award celebration put on by the Churchill club and the theme is all about leadership this year. We're really excited to have a very special guest John W. Thompson, chairman of Microsoft, a partner at Lightspeed Ventures, he's been around a long time. He's known and talks to a lot of leaders. So john, great to have you on. >> Nice to be here, thank you very much for having me. >> So leadership is such an interesting topic right? You go everything from, um, West point and trying to train young men to be leaders in a military situation to a start up that starts as some small company that had some interesting idea that grows to a huge corporate thing that's changing the world. Ya know, what are some of your thoughts as Silicon Valley is going through some hiccups right now and when you look, >> [John W. Thompson] We are? >> Just a couple little ones. >> I did recognize any of those. >> Well maybe not looking at the stock market. I don't know when that thing is coming back down. But you know when you think about leaders, what are somethings people maybe don't think about and really more interestingly how should people grow or what do you look for in a board member when you're talking to some CEO of a hot rising company? >> Well I think leadership is is as much about your personality and the business that use chose to go run is anything else. And the skills and experiences that someone might need to run a, pick a business, a business the size of Microsoft are fundamentally different than what you might need to run Rubrik, which is a company whose board I serve on. But that being said, leadership has some core principles that are critical independent of the size of the company or organization you're on. First of which is, integrity, second of which is focus, third of which is follow through and execution. There is lots of things that fundamental do and do well. And those who don't do well, don't become or stay leaders very long, that's for sure. >> It's interesting to look at Microsoft cause, ya know, three big personalities. Obviously Bill got it started as a young kid, I mean he was literally a kid in college. Um, then you had Steve Ballmer come in, completely different personalities and ya know, interesting for Bill to be willing to give up their reigns and then ya know, some tough times at Microsoft little bit stagnant and then Satya came in and just has supercharged and really driven a huge transformation in a giant big company. What are some of the attributes when you look at those three as leaders and you've worked with them, that make them so successful? >> Well, I think each of them brought something fundamentally different to the table when they were in the leadership role. In the case of Bill, he clearly was a visionary. He defined a point of view about the technology industry. That had he not done that, we wouldn't be where we are in the world today. And so, Bills role was unique. In the case of Steve, the company had hit a significant bump in the road all around the anti-trust activity. And candidly, it's my impression that Bill really didn't want to be involved in that, so he turned to Steve and says tag you're it. And Steve had a very fundamental view about execution. He was very much focus on execute, execute, execute. And if you look at the way the company preformed, its revenue grew from roughly ten, fifteen billion to almost eighty billion dollars during his term as CEO. However, the stock did not perform very well. So people weren't very happy with that. Ironically enough Satya come in, Satya had run the search business, had run the cloud business, had even run the enterprise software business. So he had a very fundamental view about of what he thought the company needed to do. And there were two issues, issues number one was strategy around cloud. And on the day of his announcement, he announced mobile first, cloud first are the strategies of Microsoft. And then he quickly, quickly made it clear that the number two issue, for the company, was about its culture. And while I am unbelievably fascinated by how much progress we've made on the product front, I'm even more encouraged by what has happened on the, candidly, on the cultural front. >> Right. So on the cultural front that is, are you a harder thing to impact especially on a large global company with hundreds of thousands of employees distributed all over the world, so what are the secrets that change culture like that? >> Its fundamental, it's about openness and honesty and candor. Um, one of the things that happens here in the valley, often for some companies is when they do their quarterly or monthly employee all hands meetings, guess what? They screen and filter all of the questions. Well, we don't do that at Microsoft office. Satya does not do that. He wants to be open and honest and candid with his employees with what's going on. My gosh! That's what real leaders do. And so I think what he has done is nothing that is unique, it's just consistent. He has been very very consistent and predictable in his execution of what openness, listening rather than talking, all of the things that good leaders are able to do. >> Right, its funny the one word you haven't said since we have been sitting here, you keep saying execution of focus, which I love focus execute and delight the customer. You haven't said strategy one single time. you said vision, but not strategy. Its interesting because I think a lot of people don't put enough emphasis on, its just work, you just got to execute. >> Its one thing to have a strategy, but if you can't execute the strategy, of what value is it? So I have always had a view in my roles as leader that it's about focus and executing. Yes, you have to come up with a vision and yes you have to create ideas that employees, and partners, and customers can become excited about. But ultimately it's about execution day in and day out. 368 days of the years, not 365. >> Alright, final question I know you've got a busy night. As you look as some leaders that you look up to, maybe not of this generation that you've been working with, but maybe of a past generation, who are some of the folks that you look to for your inspiration on the leadership side? >> Well, I would have to say the first one was the former vice chairman of IBM, who I was the chief of staff to many many many years ago. His name was Paul Rizzo. Paul was probably one of the most influential people in the company during that period of time, but you'd never know it. He had a level of humility about himself. He had a level of openness and candor in his interaction with employees at all levels up and down the line. And a company of IBM's size back in those days, it was two, three hundred thousand people big. And so he would be the first leader that comes to my mind as someone who was impactful on me. Another one would have been, a guy who created Akamai. He's on the board of Oracle and he's an awesome awesome friend of mine. He was the guy that ran the America's and gave me my first really really big job. And the fact that he was willing to give a guy like me a job like that, was a pretty important move. George Conrades is his name by the way. And so those two people were very very influential as leaders. As I would look at them and try to determine whether or not can I, can I pattern myself after that? Or are there things that they do and say and execute that I should consider as I think about my evolving leadership. >> Right so important to have people that you can look up to, learn from, and to take care of ya and help you along the way. >> [John W. Thompson] I agree >> John, thanks for spending some time it's always great to sit down with you >> Nice to see you as well. >> And continue success. We'll hopefully see you next time not to long from now. >> Lets hope not. >> Alright, he's John W. Thompson and I'm Jeff Frick. You're watching the Cube, were at the Churchill's in Santa Clara California. Thanks for watching we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE covering the AWS re:Invent 2017. Presented by AWS, Intel, and our ecosystem of partners. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman joined by my co-host, Keith Townsend, and this is one of the interviews we've been really excited. Of course, we've got about 60 interviews. We love all of them. Lots of good excitement. Lots going on at this ecosystem. Over 43 thousand in attendance here in Las Vegas, but happy to welcome back to the program, Chris Wolf, who's the Vice President and CTO of Global Field and Industry at VMware. Chris, great to see you. >> Thanks Stu, thanks Keith. Great to see you guys. >> So for the year, the whole VMware on AWS has been a hot buzz discussion. We've all been arguing internally and on theCUBE about you know, partnering and how does that work and who gets the most benefit out of it, but let's start, Chris I'd love to hear your viewpoint, you know. You talk to a lot of customers. I've talked to some customers that are really excited about it, especially at VMWorld, that were there testing it and doing it. Give us the customer viewpoint. What's really exciting them? What's interesting them? And I know there's a lot of new news we're wanna gonna get into. >> Yeah, you know, there's so much that I think is exciting to customers because you know, they're struggling with being more agile, being more software defined, being able to have more flexibility in their environments. And to be able to leverage VMware Cloud on AWS allows them to go through data center consolidation easier. It allows them to get applications to the Cloud to take advantage of Cloud services. One of the things people, I think kind of falls between the cracks in VMware Cloud on AWS is the fact that if I want to modernize an application or a traditional application, refactoring an application is enormously expensive. It's very hard to do. It's very time consuming. If I can start to move an application into the VMware Cloud on AWS and then start to integrate that with other native AWS services, I get the benefit of modernizing that application without having to touch any of the application code, which is a huge benefit to customers. >> Yeah, we've spent the last couple of years at this show, which well, do I lift and shift? Do I just re-platform it? Do I refactor it? Do I totally rewrite it? You know, the number of customers that I've talked to at this show, their advice that they give to their peers is like well, go faster. And how do we go faster? Do I just take my VMware stuff that I was doing in my own data center, stick it in VMware on AWS, start using all the cool stuff. Is that kind of the path that you see? >> That's part of it. You know, I think there's a couple threads here. There's the notion that you know, I wanna go faster, but to go faster, I have to slay some old demons in IT. Where I have to change my mindset. You know, I can't say I want to be more software defined and more agile and then have specific hardware requirements in my architecture. Of course, that's not for all applications, but that's part of that shift in mindset is how can I go faster? And if it's harder to transform some of my data centers, if I can get into that operational model by getting on Amazon quicker, then that's good for my business. >> Yeah, let me just poke on one more thing on that and I know Keith wants to jump in here, but one of the great things, I think back to 15 years ago. It was like, you know my Windows operating system going end to life. I'm gonna stick it in VM and keep it there forever. But, boy that application was all the technical data. My users hated it and everything like that. How does VMware go from I managed what you had to enabling your future? >> The thing that we're really focused on here in terms of enabling the future, when you think about programmatic compute and networking and storage and security, all applications need them. I can abstract all that away with a Lambda function or whatever, but at the end of the day, somebody has to do it and that part of the fabric becomes really important for things like having a security auto-trell. The other thread there is where VMware's strategic to customers is that they say, "You know I might wanna start this in the Cloud, "but I wanna maintain full control "of all of the intellectual property, "so I wanna use Kubernetes, I wanna use containers, "I wanna use a variety of open source projects. "I wanna use their native API's for my software engineers, "but I wanna have flexibility to build these applications "without pre-destining their future." Maybe it runs in a Cloud today, maybe it runs in a data center tomorrow, maybe it runs out at the edge. Maybe I do an acquisition and it has to run in that facility. The bottom line is, I don't always know what the future holds for my apps. And for the aspect of the apps that are core to your business, there's a lot value in running them on VMware because we can allow you to maintain that flexibility and independence, just like we've done way back in the past with your traditional enterprise applications. >> So Chris, that's a great setup for the next set of questions, which is, VMware has been known to move at the speed of the CIO. We're at AWS re:Invent. These folks move much faster than the speed of the CIO. The question is around, what's VMware's focus? You know, there's VMware Cloud on AWS, there's PKS, there's VIG. You guys came out with Openstack, VMware integrated Openstack 4.0, and then even VMware Cloud on AWS, the promised innovation three and a half months after the release. Iteration on that. That's much faster than what the CIO used to have. How are those conversations balanced between the CIO and the new business user here at AWS? >> Yeah, way to sugarcoat Keith. That's a good question. Look at CIOs today. There's very innovative CIOs. We had the NFL CIO up on stage in the morning Keynote, right? And I thought that was highly dynamic, really talking about how you have to transform business. What we're really focused on in terms of helping customers is making sure that that fabric that runs their business applications is just as fluid and dynamic as their businesses. The security has to be as fluid and dynamic or more dynamic than the threats that you face. So, these are areas that we're focused on, but your point is: how can VMware continue to deliver quick innovation? I think VMware integrated Openstack actually is an example of VMware integration or innovation, so I'm glad you brought it up. We don't talk about Openstack that much now, but VMware was the very first Openstack distro-vendor to make upgrades of Openstack versions they feature as software. Where our competitors in that space were making it a professional services engagement. You look at us, what we've done in terms of supporting containers natively on vSphere. We announced PKS and we were very quick to embrace Kubernetes. We announced Greengrass preview that we're bringing to market as well on vSphere. So, you're absolutely right to give us the feedback that in the past, you could say Vmware was a bit conservative of a company. We were slow and deliberate in some of our innovations. They were important and we were deliberate because we had a reputation to uphold for product quality. That's what our customers expect, but at the same time, it's very good feedback to say that we have to work quicker, and that's the model that we're in. I think that the AWS partnership for Vmware is one example of how we've had a couple of companies learning from each other in terms of AWS and interacting with the enterprise and VMware in terms of innovating a Cloud space, and you're staring to see the benefits and the fruits of that labor now. >> So, ironically I ran into the VMUG president, Ben Clayton doing a show floor. It's amazing to see the crossover between the VMware community and the AWS community. I think VMware Cloud on AWS has been a boom, a realizing that Cloud is coming into the enterprise in a great way. Let's talk about the community and the users. How do you help move that traditional community of, I think VMUG is 200,000 users. How do you help move that membership forward to this new speed of IT? >> It's a terrific question. There's definitely some challenges with getting folks. Part of it is IT folks, we're builders at heart. We love building everything. We love the pieces and parts. We can understand how they matter, but even if they matter like this much, it doesn't necessarily mean that I should build a snowflake for my business because some of the problems that VMware solves, you could say that every business in the world has to solve the same problems. So why focus on some of those smaller nuisances? What we've been really after is providing much more content into the VMUG communities around transformation, around how more modular IT architectures are important. Even beyond the VMUG community, if you think about some traditional VMware channel partners, where their core focus was on some very tightly integrated hardware-based solutions. Those partners, the more innovative ones, are now building hybrid applications across VMware and AWS components and modernizing enterprises that way. We're trying to encourage our VMUG community to do the same thing. I've had talks with VMUG events this year talking to them about Edge Compute and how VMware is investing there and what R&D looks like. Part of this is, I think all of us in IT, we have to have that point in time where we say "I have to let go, "I know the market's shifting, "I know I have to do something different." If I didn't let go in my past, I would still be known for being a Certified Novell Engineer, right? Times change and we have to change too, so it's really important to be prescriptive and give our community all the tools they need to evolve with us. >> Chris, you mention the Greengrass thing that you have in preview for a bit. I want you talk about that a little bit and when I heard Andy Jassy this morning, he talked about the continuum. Instances, which underneath, that's virtualization from VMware. There's containers and there's serverless. Andy says if he was to build IWBS today, he'd build it all serverless. We know it's not a zero sum game and nothing changes overnight, but virtualization is not decimated by containers overnight and containers doesn't go away now that serverless comes out. I want you to talk about the Greengrass and how that spectrum fits into the customers you're talked to in the VMware journey. >> I think it's really, really exciting and certainly I'm a huge proponent of serverless. My 14 year old son has an Echo Dot in his bedroom and he likes to program it to do really fun things. My favorite example is he had it talking about who the ugliest person in the world is and wanted Alexa to name his sister. There's a part of me that's like "No don't do that, son" but then the other part's like "I'm so proud of you." >> That's awesome. But if we step back, there's this huge press to start doing more in terms of getting the analytics and the intelligence to either where the data's being created or where the data's being consumed. We've had a lot of customers come to us jointly, saying "Look, I can't move the data to the Cloud "to do deep analytics or machine learning. "It defies the laws of physics "or the networking costs are just too much. "Or there's latency considerations. "I need a faster transaction execution time." We have a customer, a joint customer, where they're monitoring the heat of the brake pad on a train and they're trying to understand in real time, how that impacts the train's maintenance schedule and when they should take it out of service. They need to get the intelligence of the Cloud closer to where these things are occurring. Let's bring that all back to Greengrass on vSphere. You heard an announcement of machine learning on Greengrass today. To do machine learning, I need some considerable compute horsepower to really make it effective. Most of our customers already have a lot of that horsepower already out at the edge. One of our customers has six to 10 servers. This is very common of a lot of retail organizations, six to 10 servers per stores times 10,000 stores. They're trying to do more with IOT and more analytics. They want to leverage the investments that they already have an infrastructure. The other part that's strategically important to VMware is this: we want to have Cloud services be able to execute where the data's being created and that's a natural use case for virtualization. Then second, we want to have a platform that can allow the most popular opensource technologies to also run there to give customers all of that choice. So for us, it's all about promoting heterogeneity at the edge. We see those Cloud services as really that new generation of application platforms that customers, they don't want some artificial constraint of a Cloud data center to say "this is where it has to run." I want it to run wherever the business requirements say it needs to run and that's what's important and that's what we're doing with this announcement. >> Chris, we talk to a lot of CTOs, senior architects, CIOs and even looking at VMware, trust that part of it has been very stable in the environment for years, the product selection can be overwhelming. CIOs, CTOs need to focus their investment and their strategies in a certain area. Conversations, where are you telling CTOs, CIOs to focus their investment? >> It's a really good question. You definitely have to have a focus area and for us, it's about a platform for rapid agility and innovation. That's really key. We don't know what the future's gonna be. We can guess and you are both two very visionary guys and you have a general idea of what's gonna happen over the next 12, 18 months, but there's things that are just unexpected, especially in the business context. We can understand technology, but business dynamics change very quickly. Helping CTOs and CIOs understand how to build a fabric that can make them more agile and flexible is really key. That's one. So, greater automation, greater efficiencies, rapid innovation, but even more importantly for a lot that's really top of mind is security. Giving them a way to do rapid recovery, being able to start to segment some of their resources, being able to dynamically offer and adjust security and understand threats in real time and combat them in real time is key. The traditional model of security is: I have a dynamic threat so I'm gonna have increased layers of static security to combat it and I'll just add more layers. Doesn't work. We've had customers have massive outages that we've worked with because they've had ransomware attacks and things like that, so they want to be more agile and more dynamic. Their VMware environments, they've been able to get up very quickly, but these lessons are teaching organizations that they have to think differently. So really, that security and agility I see is really top of line for a lot of folks. >> Chris, I've seen lots of traffic at the VMware booth, talked to a lot of customers that are interested. The elephant in the room when I talk to all of them is cost. We've looked at Big Bear Metal, Amazon released that instance. That's a big hunking instance, a lot of memory, a lot of networking. I've talked to a couple customers that said, "I did the analysis on VMware over AWS "versus heck, just buying a rack "and stick it in my environment." You get a significant difference in there. One customer is like "Hey, it was 3x the cost "for me to just buy it and do it myself, "and I didn't feel I was gonna get any "operational efficiencies even doing it "'cause I know VMware and I know how to run it." What do you say to those customers? What are they missing? I'd love any misconceptions that you're hearing out there. >> I'll give ya an example. Let's use the cost analogy. My daughter wants a new radio for Christmas. I can go to Best Buy and buy a really nice stereo, but that's actually 3x the cost of me buying the circuit board kit, say on Amazon, and soldering in the components myself. When you think about that in a practical, real world example, we used to buy motherboards and build PCs and servers back in the day. We don't even think about doing it anymore and even if I could save 25 dollars doing it, I still wouldn't do it because there's more important things I can be doing with my time to differentiate my business. Look, we are-- >> I wanna poke at that. Because you're partners at Delium Sig and I buy one of the VX whatever family from their team. It's pretty easy to ploy, I do that. I understand how to do VMware. It's not gonna take me months to deploy. I know how to a VMware environment and it's that type of configuration. They're saying it's not building versus buying and I understand there's a spectrum there, but just the raw VMware and AWS. They said "I'm gonna get two bills. "I'm gonna get one from VMware and one from Amazon" and the price of it does seem pretty massive compared to what they were doing. So, are they wrong about that? >> I'm really surprised at that. We're not hearing that from our customers We're seeing them have very solid in terms of cost saving, in terms of running on AWS because unlike a traditional Cloud environment, I can oversubscribe physical hosts, I can run more workloads because it is native VMware. You're also getting additional benefits. I'm getting V-SAN storage, I'm getting NSX for networking and security. To say I'm just gonna take vSphere and compare, I would say that that's probably not the closest comparison. There's other aspects that we're providing that operate in a Cloud environment. And, listen, we had this before. Five years ago, people were saying, "Well, Cloud's too expensive so I'm gonna stay on premises." We don't even think that way anymore. There's other benefits that you're getting in the Cloud model that you have to weigh into consideration and we've seen VMware Cloud on AWS is as price competitive as a lot of the native public Cloud services are without all the added benefits of networking and security and management and other things that we throw in. >> Chris, wanna give you the final word. What's exciting you these days? You used to sit on kind of this side of the table, look at the environment. You're deep in some of the emerging pieces. What's getting you excited? I'd love to hear any final insights on partnering between VMware and Amazon, which a lot of us on the outside are like cats and dogs living together. >> Okay, let's hit a couple of them. First, certainly for me, the innovation that's occurring at the edge, I think is extremely exciting. Driving new use cases around augmented reality, more machine learning. How we're looking in terms of moving services to where data's being generated instead of moving the data, which is always problematic. That's a new wave of innovation that I think is really exciting. So that's the certainly the area I'd say that's most exciting for me, is how we can innovate there. It's also around hybrid applications. It's the integration of things like Lambda functions in a traditional file system. I was with a major global financial services organization yesterday and we were not talking about traditional Lambda function use cases. We were talking about integrating Lambda with database and file system events and VM's running on vSphere. So, there's this whole new way to modernize applications that we're just at the cusp of. That pace of innovation's happening faster and faster. I'll say this about Amazon: we are really committed to working together and I think what you're seeing in the industry in general, it's not just VMware with AWS, but it's with our partners in the container spaces. An example is containers as a service and platform as a service, is we're being very pragmatic about focusing on what we're really, really good at. And there's areas where VMware is fantastic at it, in terms of reliability and heterogeneity at the edge and there's natural synergies where we can work together with Amazon web services. In my opinion, they've been a fantastic partner. All of the work that we've done with the Greengrass team and the IOT team, in terms of bringing Greengrass to market on vSphere, has been an enormously positive experience. We share lessons learned, we share engineering, work together. It's extremely collaborative because just like all of our technology partners, there's always areas where we're going to compete a little bit and there can be some overlap, but there's a lot more areas where we get to work together and that's what we're really focused on with VMware and AWS. >> Well, Chris, I know Keith and I always appreciate your perspectives, the VMware community engagement, know you're always open to having some good, real discussions here, so really appreciate you coming sharing all our viewpoints. Congratulations on all the progress here. We're certainly excited to see where it goes. >> I appreciate the opportunity. >> Alright, for Keith Townsend, I'm Stu Miniman. We'll be back with lots more coverage here. You're watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live from Orlando, Florida, it's theCUBE, covering ServiceNow Knowledge17, brought to you by ServiceNow. >> And we're back in Orlando, everybody, this is Dave Vellante with Jeff Frick, CJ Desai is here, he's the Chief Product Officer of ServiceNow, the newly-minted, 150 days in, CJ, great to see you off the keynote, fantastic job. >> Thank you, thank you, thank you. >> Very crisp, I was struck by your story about last October, when you were contacted by ServiceNow, you fired up the platform and started playing around and built an app. >> Yeah! (chuckling) >> And you found it was a good experience. >> It was a great experience, I'll tell you, Dave, from my standpoint, when you join a company that is built on a platform like ServiceNow, you want to make sure that you feel great about the foundational elements, because as always, you can build floors on top of a foundation, only when the foundation is strong. So ServiceNow always, I don't know if you know, but it started out as a platform company, and then they used the service management use case, and went deep in that use case, and then went to Operations Management and other products, as you know, and I just wanted to make sure that, hey, how easy it is, if I'm a customer, or if I'm in the product development organization, to create an app, and having that strong foundational layer, even simple things like, it's the cloud offering, first of all, you have a integrated development environment, you can start creating workflows, UI, all of that is so easy, and there's no headache of figuring out how to deploy the app, because it's right there, so you just publish it and you're done. >> Yeah, it's interesting, one of the first CUBE interviews we did at Knowledge was with Doug Leone, the famous VC, and he told the story of, he saw this, "What am I going to do with this?" And sent Fred away and said, "Build something on top of it," and that's what happened, but. But help our audience understand, CJ, because you talked about Jakarta today. >> Yeah. >> Now, Jakarta is a platform capability, and if we understand it correctly, we were talking about it earlier, the business units have to figure out, "Okay, how do we apply that capability "to our particular needs, and our customer needs," so explain that. >> Yeah, so ultimately, there are two things that happens in the products organization, right? First is, we do release this every six months, twice a year, so every six months, twice a year, and we go by alphabets, and we pick cities, just a fun factoid, we pick cities that go from North America or South America, to Europe, to Asia. So, H released last year, around this time, was Helsinki, after Helsinki was Istanbul, and then we have Jakarta, so are now in Asia, and then next will be Kingston, and the one after that is London, so you go alphabetically, and the reason we pick this city names in alphabets, we support our customers, because it's a multi-instance paradigm, n minus one and n minus two releases, so when you make, name of the cities, customers will have a conversation with me and say, "CJ, we went on Helsinki, we're upgrading to Istanbul, "or we're going to skip Istanbul, "and go straight to Jakarta," for example, so, first of all, that's our naming system that we use, every six months, you will see us talk about a specific release, and you heard from John yesterday, he was very clear in saying, "Listen, "our customers want to hear our roadmap, "they want to know what we are up to," and so we took that customer feedback to heart, and decided, why don't we just tell them what's coming in Jakarta? So Jakarta will be released this summer, and from a planning standpoint, Dave, to answer your question, we figure out first, what do our customers want, and is it in the applications that we talked about, like ITSM or CSM or security or HR, and for those applications to deliver the functionality, what do we need to do in the platform so that the functionality can be delivered? So the requirement process is a complex requirement process, the applications team will give requirements to the platform, customers also sometimes have requirements for the platform on scale, platform will build a functionality, applications team will build the features on top of it, so in Jakarta, which is coming out this summer, we have six new products, you saw some of them, software asset management and others, 30 major features, and that's close, so after Jakarta, we're already in planning for Kingston. After Kingston, I think I'm going to announce it for the first time, will be London, so it's Jakarta, Kingston, London, are the three-- >> Yeah, so when we go to these events, a lot of times, at the keynotes, somebody will make a product announcement and you get a little golf clap, it always happens at ServiceNow Knowledge that you get somebody hooting in the audience, today, the hoot came for software asset management, they were the three high level things you talked about today, performance with UX, and performance, and then the vendor risk management, which is very interesting, we'll talk about that a little bit, and then the software asset management, the guy must've been an Oracle customer hooting and hollering. But so, give us the high level overview. >> Alright, so, here is the thing, right? Our buyer is IT organization, we started with IT. We love our buyer, and CIO, to all the organizations that support CIO, head of infrastructure, the portfolio management team, the business management within IT. And one of the things that we saw, and this is the requirement that we got is, when we talk to CIOs about how to make the IT organization productive, because IT, it's a tough job, man, it's a tough job, things go down, you're like, "Okay, of course, IT," and technology's such an integral part of our life that people are always looking at IT to make sure they deliver great technologies. So, IT budget, and every, debated this all the time, everybody talks about IT budgets, what's happening to IT budgets, how the IT budget is going up or down, are you asked to do more with less, there are so many examples I can use, but as per Gartner, 25% of the IT budget is on software licensing. Then there is hardware and all the other infrastructure and people-related cost. 25%, so if, and as you know, some of the vendors put you through a pretty complex audit process, so why can't we, our chief buyer is IT, why can't we give them a platform, or a product, that allows them to discover how many products you are using by vendor, Microsoft, Oracle, some of you examples you used, for desktop, it's Adobe and others, you use these products, are you really utilizing all the licenses you have, or are you potentially in overage so that you actually have a sense of where you stand with every vendor that you're using that makes up your 25% budget. We talk to financial customers, manufacturing industrial customers, these are billions of dollars of budget, 25% is still a big number, any improvement in that 25% could go a long way, and what CFOs do not like is when CIOs go and tell the CFO, "Hey, we didn't clear this audit, "or potentially these guys may sue us "for a contract violation," so we decided we are going to create a product that helps you get a good posture on what your licensing is, does that make sense? And that's why, you know, I also saw on Twitter, a lot of people love this idea that, hey, can we automate this software as a management process, discover what's being deployed, allow you to reclaim, and at the end, help you save the cost. >> And the other one was the cloud management platform, which again, similar type of situation, especially with all the freemium services, and test dev, and card swiping, that they can get unruly pretty quickly. >> In my last job, as you are aware, I was in infrastructure space, and one of the things in speaking to customers, always realized that hey, IT was not agile enough, we decided, for some customers, we decided to go and use some of the public cloud services, re-enter infrastructure, because IT could not keep up with our demands, and you go and speak to IT, they say there is so much going on that sometimes it's not easy for devops communities, in particular, that you pointed out, so much going on. So, IT felt like they were losing control, developers, whether they're application developers in IT organization or in business units, just wanted agility, and IT felt like if they cannot deliver that level of service, you had the share-to-IT functions going on in the departments, and with cloud, we acquired a company called iTapp about a year ago in April. The first year was all focused on re-platforming, like I said today, I think many times, I'm sure people got sick of listening to me, is, we are going to re-platform every acquisition that we make, and we usually buy technologies in our business so far. And we re-platform it, and now, IT gets the control back, once for, you know, you help the developers, devops people, sure, go and use public cloud, but IT will still have a single pane of glass that allows you to look at your resource mapping, utilization, understanding the cost and the usage, whether you are on public cloud service, or in private cloud service. >> Well, it's huge, because it's very unpredictable, and people often complain, "Oh, I get the cloud bill at the end of the month," but a lot of times, there's not just one cloud bill, it's many, many cloud bills, and what happens, you know, you remember this, in the downturn, a lot of CFOs said, "Go to the public cloud, "eliminate Capax" and then, when we came out of the downturn, lines of business said, "I got to move fast, "and this cloud thing seems to be working for me." IT seems to have really, you know, in previous big picture trends like this, mega trends, IT oftentimes has been sort of pushing back, you saw that with client server. >> Yeah, their security concerns, compliances-- >> And today, they're announcing, okay, we have to embrace cloud, or we're toast. >> And Dave, I'll tell you, there are customers, I mean, some very large customers in regulated industries who tell me that, "CJ, we are now cloud first, "before we decide to do something," I mean, that's a pretty big statement, cloud first, I mean, if you remember 2008, '09, '10, '11, '12, '13, that journey, and how customers were reluctant, and they're like, "I don't know, my data losing from here," and this and that-- >> Well, I got to bring this up, so, I was reading an article on SiliconANGLE, EMC World is going on, Dell EMC World this week, and Michael Dell basically made this statement in his keynote, "If you're a cloud first, "you could be in trouble because of the expanse," and so forth. I don't buy it. I think the other, I love you, Michael, but the value that customers are getting out of going cloud-first, maybe, yeah, maybe the bill at the end of the month is high, but the other residual effects on your business, the speed, the agility, the processes, you're seeing it, aren't you? >> I mean, I'll tell you straight up, there are customers that are asking us, because, you know, again, IT's our key buyer, and key customer, and we appeal to the IT department, and the CIOs, even at the CIO dinner the night before, people are embracing cloud. Now, they are on a journey, some of them have maybe mode few percent of their workload, some of them may have mode a little higher, but they're on some journey, and they're trying to balance when the cost pros out with the cons, or the cons out with the pros, but, can you give us some kind of control plane to manage our cloud resources, understand the usage, understand the billing, which we do for financial management, and tie-in with IT processes, because that resource life cycle, that VMU provision, right, that VMU provision in the cloud, what happens to the life cycle of VM, can you create an incident, can you close it out, that's equally important besides just saying, "Yeah, I'm going to move this particular workload to cloud." So I feel that customers are on this journey of some kind of combination of public and private cloud, and it doesn't have to be zero-sum game, infrastructure continues to grow, I don't feel like, okay, if you do this, that means you do not do private, or if you do private, that doesn't mean-- >> Certainly both, and containers are going to just exacerbate the problem. >> Right, and the demand for compute, store, and networking is not going down any time soon. >> I'll tell you, my role environment, so my team lends cloud infrastructure, so our platforms runs on cloud infrastructure, and you saw some of the elevated numbers, I mean, our growth, we are trying to invest in compute network storage ahead of our growth, so it's not, and we are a cloud service, so I always look at it as, this doesn't have to be zero-sum game, customers are expanding, they want the agility, like you said, the agility, the business is asking, "Can you develop this app faster, "can you give me what I need," is what's driving-- >> It's a topline game for businesses, Jeff, I just want to inject some of those numbers on your cloud, 50,000 instances, 150 million active users, and 10 billion transactions per month. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, but I want to get, it's funny you're talking about Jakarta and London, I remember when we were doing interviews around Dublin, which I guess was a while ago, but I'm curious, 'cause there's this other trade-off, and get your perspective, is in a devops world, in kind of a continuous integration and development world, people want to push code frequently. On the other hand, in an enterprise world, and we've talked to a couple of customers, they can only take it so much, and so you've kind of got this yin and yang, and you want to get stuff out, and there's patches, and this and that, and you're on a relatively aggressive for current enterprise release schedule, on the other hand, the trend is clearly, just keep pumping it out, pumping it out, pumping it out, how do you see that kind of sorting itself out over time with these big enterprise customers? >> I will tell you, from a technology standpoint, there is nothing that prevents us from doing more frequent releases, yes, we have to mature our product release processes, we have to mature our cloud operations and how fast we can churn the code. There is nothing that prevents us, technically, from instead of two releases a year, maybe do four releases, it doesn't! But our customers, and we talk about customers first, listening to customers, you saw John today, I mean, we want to listen to them, and they will tell us, that I was at a large financial institution in Boston two weeks ago, and, your hometown, and they told me that, "I cannot do every six months, "I cannot do every six months, CJ, "we usually skip a release," right? And so we are just listening for specific use cases around service management, the processes, customer-run, same thing with operations management, right now, six months about feels right, every six months, release, we do quarterly patches, where we do not release features in those quarterly patches, and for emerging products, like you saw customer service, they challenge security, the team did a great job, when I look at those releases, is it potentially can we push things fast? Maybe, but right now, I'm okay, based on customer feedback. If customers come and say, "I want every three months," I hope to see what does that mean-- >> Let me run something by you, I told Jeff I've been sharing cabs with practitioners all week, it's great to just have wonderful conversations, and one said to me, "I've asked ServiceNow "if they can give me more granularity in the releases," I said, that doesn't sound trivial, in other words, if I can selectively choose features, is that even technically feasible? >> I mean, this is the isolating the feature, micro-feature development, making sure your schema is abstracted enough, I mean, there are companies in consumer world who do that, and push code out really fast. I would say, right now, one of the requirements I do get is, we're on IT service management, we have been a customer of ServiceNow for a while, but on this other thing, say, customer service, or HR, I want to take the new features, so my IT service management is at, say, Helsinki, but I want to take the HR, like the onboarding you saw, the onboarding, which is in Jakarta. So does that mean I need to upgrade this thing to leverage the HR feature? The answer is yes, because it's all built on single platform. Now, I do not want to do where customers, we give them two instances, and then we do a back-end pipe integration, a connector, so you can be on Helsinki for ITSM, and Jakarta, that-- >> Architecturally-- >> That breaks our model, and I do not want to do that. There are companies who, say, reside in different tenant, and will give you one for, I do not want to do that. >> I wanted to ask you about this too, CJ, because, you have a dogma, you have your own cloud, you see a lot of SaaS companies now saying, okay, you see Workday, a little bit of Salesforce, certainly Infor, putting their applications on AWS, for example. You guys, very proud of your cloud, you have availability, and I think when you show availability numbers, you downplay it, actually, people don't understand this, you're talking about application availability, you're not talking about the server light-- >> No. >> Okay, so you're very dogmatic about your cloud, and this issue here, you won't do something that maybe is going to help one customer but is going to ruin the experience down the road for all, and that dogma, is that a valid, it's not a criticism, it's an observation, and is that a good thing? >> So I would say there are some design principles, or operational principles that we live with, and we are going to stick to them, like we talk about acquisitions and re-platforming, think about, Dave, you have somebody coming in, you acquire a machine learning company, really smart kids, really smart people, machine learning or data sciences, an art more than a science, and looking at prediction accuracies and things like that. Now you tell them, "Welcome to ServiceNow, "here's your badge, you just got onboarded, "it's great what you've built, "we are not going to sell that standalone, "you need to re-platform," which typically takes one year, "Before we can launch your product." That's a tough message. That's a tough message for an engineering team to hear, that now I have to figure out how does this platform work, I mean, if I had a magic bullet, I would tell you, if I can wave the magic wand, I'll say, acquire this technology in machine learning AI, combine that with our organic development, it's a re-platform and I have a toolkit that does this thing, and it is a re-platform, but that's not easy. So on these kind of principles, whether it's re-platforming, how we do the releases, how we look at the cloud, and I want to answer your public cloud question. Right now, as you know, we're active, active, I've seen your interviews in the past here, we're active, active, we have eight pair of data centers, 16 around the world, and we make sure with our multi-instance architecture, the availability of the uptimes are very high for our customers, and when they upgrade, we know, they can pull the upgrade, "I'm going, CJ, "from Helsinki to Istanbul, or Helsinki to Jakarta," and that's available, but, can we potentially look at moving our footprint, and renting infrastructure in a public cloud? I'll never say never, but right now, there is no need for it. >> No, you see it, and there are advantages to having your own cloud. I want to ask about your role as Chief Product Officer. Fred Luddy had that title, we were sort of joking earlier, Fred was a coder, the company brought Frank in for adult supervision, and so you're inheriting that title, but I sense that you're a different type of manager, what do you bring to ServiceNow? >> I'll tell you, first of all, Fred, Frank, and even Dan McGee, who had this role last year, he was here, I saw his interview, he's here today, phenomenal people, I mean, I have interacted with all three of them, Dan McGee helped me transition into my role, Frank hired me, and just great, great guy, and even with Fred, going through this user experience, how do I think about the user experience based on the persona, he's always there to provide input with lots and lots energy and feedback. So let me just tell you for, in less than 30 seconds, what my role is, right? My role is, I help platform team, and the cloud infrastructure team, that's lead by Pat Casey, who is doing CreativeCon tomorrow, I have individual application general managers that you saw some of them today, and I also have the customer support organization, and the user experience teams. So that's my overall responsibility, so it's the responsibility that Fred Luddy had til last October, and Dan McGee had til last December, combined into one. So, it's a big job, and it comes with a lot of responsibilities on behalf of our customers, you talk about high availability number, we help to make sure that we keep our cloud service up and running secure, but at the same time, bringing this innovation in platform and the applications is my job. So, I'd done, fortunately, when I started out of college, makes me sound old, I know, but when I came out of college, I worked for a company that was doing business applications for a long time, eight years there, and I worked in that applications technology team, I worked in the CRM applications, did things for financial applications, and I went on security software, understanding how you protect the applications you write, all the way from OS up to the application stack, and then I worked for a infrastructure company, as you know. So that gave me a really good feel on the entire stack, how do you scale that stack, and be maniacally focused on, what do customers want? I mean, I am very fortunate to have great customer relationships, many companies around the globe, I reach out to them, ask them, tell me what you think, tell me what we are doing well, so customer focus, having done product development for 20-plus years now, and understanding all the way from application stack to the underlying infrastructure, is where I can help-- >> Yeah, it's like a triple threat that you have, the product innovation, the enterprise class, security, and scaling, as you mentioned, very, very important. Alright, CJ, I love having you on theCUBE, you're a great guest, we could continue, but we got to leave it right there. Great to see you again-- >> Thank you, thank you so much, I really appreciate it. >> Alright, keep it right there, everybody, we'll be back with our next guest, this is theCUBE, we're live from Knowledge17, we'll be right back.

>> Mine from Las Vegas. It's the cute covering knowledge sixteen brought to you by service. Now carry your host, Dave Alon and Jeff Rick. >> Welcome back to knowledge. Sixteen. Everybody, This is the Cube. Silicon Angles, flagship product. We go out to the events. We extract the signal from the noise Bart Murphy is. Here's the CTO of York Risk Services group. Mark. Good to see again. Good to see you. But thank you for having me. So what's been going on this week? Busy week. What you been doing this week has >> been busy. I've been doing a couple different things. One on the CIA decisions track, you know, collaborated on with those folks and getting some sessions in from service now and then on the partner side. You know, talking to customers, checking out and enjoying the the key notes on seeing what's new on the platform. Very exciting. >> Did you see Secretary Gates last night? We were, unfortunately, >> got pulled out for a call, So I >> think that's the >> one thing I did miss. You >> want to call me on that? One of things, he said, which I want to ask you about a former CEO. See XO now? Hey, said that consensus management don't bother now speaking to watch the CEO's as the CEO, yeah, it's a >> challenge. I think you know, there's there's one component that you have to devise, a strategy that you know a sound, and you have to have some resolve to help sell it. So I see that component of it. But the other is to sell that vision and get other people bought it. So, you know, I think there is a and consensus component from that, certainly from the executive team. And then you have to go sell it to your organization as well. And I think that truly doesn't come from just talking about the vision or the business case. It's from actually delivering the software and delivering the services and doing in an incremental basis that allows them to see and gain value from that, that that's what you build your credibility up on. And I think then that's what helps sell it. >> So you've gone through a few changes personally, your company. So take us through the care works acquisition. Sure, so >> careless family companies was required by your Chris Services Group S O. We're now part of a larger organization and national organization, Although care works itself had a few of the companies that had national footprint, a majority of them were primarily based in Ohio. So strategically great fit a great company. I moved into the corporate CTO roll about Oh, a year, year and a half after the acquisition, and I've been really trying to build out the entire enterprise strategy from a night perspective because they just they had procured a lot of acquired a lot of companies over a two to three year time span. And so we need to really invest a lot of time on what the future state of it is going to look like. >> So it's interesting gone from CEO to CTO. People talk coming to Cuba to talk about the role of the CIA. He'LL talk about all the time, and there'd been someone put forth the notion that the CEO eventually is going to have to choose a path, technical path or business path. You know, maybe both at different times. Do you subscribe to that, or do you see the CEO role is continuing on a CZ? We've known it. Yeah, >> we don't have a separate CIA and CTO I oversee the including operations. To me from a title perspective, I just want to have the organization view that that role is part of innovation. We have a chief innovation officer as well, but from a technology perspective, I think it's very difficult to run operations if you don't have a good grass for the technology in the platform. So regardless of the roller or title that they gave me, I think it's more about what are you managing on? And I don't want to ever be broken up between sort of SETI role that may be more focused on newer technology projects and then a CIA on Lee based on building our run methods. I want to make sure that those organizations are always combined because you're going to build much better software if you also have to support it. We also want to make sure that the automation is in place so that we have our support organization in mind when we actually deploy new platforms, new applications, new systems. >> So you see yourself as a software company. >> You know we do. We're in the wrist services business, so we are, ah, services provider, two carriers to large self insured Teo Large Claims organization. So we see ourselves. A lot of what we do is differentiated by our technology. Whether that's, you know, better business process, outsourcing functions or ability to do Bill review faster, more accurately. So our CEO definitely sees us as a technology company, and that's why there's a lot of investment in time being put into sort of build out what that future state of it is going to look like. >> What what do you do with service now? These days? How did the acquisition affect that and where you had it? >> Well, so we just went live with Yorker Services Group on service now is Platform on Geneva, and that's actually a separate production instance that we have with care work. So we deployed the care works instance in early two thousand eleven, late two thousand ten in that time frame, and there were, you know, there's a ton of customization a lot, you know, very solid platform for that family of companies with the York. There's a much larger scope that we wanted to address so very lucky again to be in that situation because I had an opportunity to start a redo and any time that you worked on a platform and you do it for a few years and then you get a chance to actually build again. So we really took more of an enterprise. I till out of the box type of approach s O that it could be flexible enough to manage across the entire enterprise, including all the acquired companies that we plan to pull onto the platform. And then that gives us time to figure out what was really the best out of our other platform that we want to, you know, retrofit back in. But the main reason I did that is to make sure that we could get some benefit out of the platform now and work and migrate into the business. Shared services functions within York that I think we're going to benefit very, very much from the new platform. >> So you've got a mulligan of sorts a little bit. >> Yeah, I got lucky on that on a little bit of the mulligan. And, you know, again, it's all about trying to make sure that we can come in and we just went live. You know, we're gonna have our challenges, like with any organizational change management solution, even just on the same side. But the cadence in which we're putting out releases to actually improve and bring on other shared services functions, I think, is where we will gain the majority of buying. >> So this notion here talked about a lot of this conference. The single cmd b yeah, is that something that you're able to achieve or working toward? Are you there? And absolutely, it's the goal. >> I mean, I don't know if you ever achieve it. I think it does take a lot of time. So the goal is to have everything in one platform for all of our companies across the board and to help facilitate automation, whether it's with GRC with the new security product that's coming out, which is, you know, something we're looking to get deployed in. Q three Q. Three Q For hopefully sooner rather than later. I just see there's a bunch of play on the automation orchestration side as it relates to tying in and tying an audit. Tien and Security on then also looking at business shared services and you know that's a whole different world of figuring out how can we help them? And we have ah operations service and are actually part of our next release. So I'll be very interested to see. You know, they do a lot of things manually like everybody does. He'LL be very keen to see how they see the platform and what they're going to come up with us, a strategy long term for them. >> So are you mentioned a couple times that York's made a number of acquisitions your company included, and don't give twenty four looking statements? Obviously, they're going to keep rolling up more things. But if you could speak to using service now as a vehicle to better integrate acquisitions, yeah, because for a lot of companies, that's a strategy. >> Yes, so and I actually have a strategy around that leveraging the platform is one of the main reasons that want to get it in now so that it could eventually build that. My whole goal there is the Leverage Performance Analytics on the way that I envisioned. Using that is, in many of the companies that we acquire, they will operate still, stand alone from a night perspective for some period of time. You know, whether that's six months, three months, two years until we can fully integrate him, whether it's network, you know, systems consolidation you name it. It takes a long time. It's not something that we have solved. So part of it is to be able to do modeling using Performance Analytics by pulling in the data so I can get them now onto this cloud platform because they don't need to be on network. I can have them operating their work within that platform for a period of a baseline period of time. And I could start to model that using Performance Analytics to say, How would that impact our enterprise? That's allies. Does it help our enterprise? That's always. Does it degrade our enterprise? That's the lace. Are they staffed appropriately to actually meet our enterprise? That's the lace and what our enterprises slaves. Once we start collecting all this data based on how we're staffed and how we're going to, you know, fund that transaction. So, >> Bart, if I understood it correctly, you have the dual role CEO slash CTO. Okay, is that there's the CSO report into you are he does. I saw Also he >> does. And so and that's ah, new rule that we established about a little less than a year ago. There was ah VP of corporate security. But we didn't have a chief information security officer s. So I we're not got a very season, see so and working not only as an internal what we do internally. Also within our tech company as well. We started cybersecurity practice. So everything we do, we try to make sure that we can actually support our technology investments from an enterprise perspective and be able to self serve ourselves as an enterprise. So very excited about that. That's why we're getting to the security components and some other products that we think will integrate extremely well into service. Now >> let's talk about that a little bit. I want to put forth the premise. You tell me, feel free to tell me the premise doesn't hold water. But it seems to us that there's been a shift in thinking about security from we'LL focus on you know, defense, defense, defense to one of you know we're going to get infiltrated. It's all about how we respond and I as the sea xo Whatever. See so CEO Seo, I can help lead that response. It's mechanism, but it's a team sport. Is that a valid premise? >> I think it's valid. I think you know, I think it's a little it is driving some change v f ear. But, you know, I think that, you know, is certainly from an external perspective can protect yourself pretty well. You know, a lot of the breaches were actually curve, and some of the cases were internal or through third party partners. So I think there's been a lot of additional due diligence being put on organization, especially as a service organization. We work with a lot of large insurance carriers as an example. So we are getting hit with a lot more requests and a lot more sort of assessments on what our controls are in that space. So we need to be mature, and that's based no matter what, since again, we're providing services to clients in this space, and we're collecting a good amount of claim data and bill data and medical data. So I'm not as going out staying okay, just when it's gonna happen and how we handle breach. If that's the case, I'm trying to figure out what are the ways that we can proactively manage our environment and be able to respond in a much faster fashion to isolate an issue as quickly as possible, which is why I'm really excited about the automation and security component within service now because properly integrated with similar tools that we have. There's a lot that the system conduce that a human can't get too fast enough that will actually shut down to manage that risk extremely well. >> Do you believe that the board level? There's sort of open and transparent communication that that it's not about If Wade get infiltrated, its we have been infiltrated and we will continue to be infiltrated. That discussion occur. >> I think, yeah, the board level. They're certainly more aware, and not just from their participation in our board for the companies that they run themselves, because many of these folks come from companies that their run themselves. So I think there's certainly an awareness I think they're demanding and wanting to have more concrete plans on what your corporate security strategy is going to be. So we've produced a three year plan on what that is and presented that our committee and are starting to communicate that all the way up, you know, through our CEO. So I think there's more awareness I I think that for whatever reason, people think that it hasn't been working on this for some time, but they have S o. You know, there's a lot of good things that we've already done and already put in place that people just need to be made aware of it and get up to speed if you will. And then there's. Here's what we're doing to invest in trying to stop future things or to be more proactive or tow, have better control. Is better auto practices this type of >> what's the right regime for a cyber security? In other words, who should be responsible for should be a single tech group? We Should it be a wider group. What responsibility? >> And no, it's it's it's It's by committee. So our committee included, you know, our general counsel, our CEO, our chief human resource officer, our CEO. So it it's a joint effort. Certainly there's a large component of it because many of it is about your defenses in your ability to manage and maintain and keep your data secure. But security is a company wide initiative. You know everything from training all the way down the associate level to not, you know, click on bad email links, right that no matter what you do and what type of in a virus you have and you're still going to get some of those fishing emails and some of those ransomware emails in those type of components. So there's a whole education put component that goes all the way down to the associate level. If that's not understood by the management over those groups, then you know how is it going to actually be distilled down and supported? So it's a complete company effort when it comes to corporate security. >> And how about >> the business lines? Because our research shows that a lot of organizations don't you don't even have the specifically answer for your organization. Just in your experience is the CEO and the CEO. If it seems as though a lot of businesses don't understand the value of their data or the value of their I p, and as a result, don't really know how to protect it, is that something that is challenging for organism >> Asians? I think it is least when I've talked to other clients potentially, I think less today than it was even five years ago. We certainly know the value of our data. I mean, there's been too many breaches in the large breaches in the past three years to not be aware. I have had that question asked ofyou on, even for a business perspective, understand the exposure. So you know they what is that? Hundred fifty hundred twenty five dollars per claim? Potentially on the data side. So people even put metrics around. It's you, Khun. Quickly go through and established what you think your overall exposure is from a dollar perspective and that starts toe. You know, open eyes when you have millions of claims, are even more millions of bills. >> And that's your business. So you would think you have a better understanding everything most. But so for those who don't how should they go about achieving that knowledge? That awareness, >> They should find someone that, you know, maybe some type of trusted advisor. You know, whether they need to hire a consulting company whether they need to go and just converse with another AA group like a CEO group and ask Hey, have you guys done this before? There's a ton of collaboration at that level where people are asking, Hey, how did you guys come up with your security road map on What did that >> look like? Because Because the value then drives your investment decisions, right, because that's the other thing is kind of like insurance. When is enough enough, You could always been Mohr, but at some point you're gonna have diminishing returns relative to the value. But you've gotta have a basis to set a budget. So I would imagine the value of the data, the value of the risk, whether its >> value brand right, so outside of the hard costs of potentially, you know, getting credit rating or those type of components. You know, there's there's the brand discussion, and I think that's somewhat invaluable. So, you know, budgets are just over. Go spend what you want, but there's certainly a lot of awareness that money needs to be spent that area. It needs to be spent wisely, but there hasn't been an issue as to either one. We're coming up with wild budgets for security but explaining what we're doing and why, and how cost effectively we're doing. It has been very well >> in thinking about how you communicate to the board Yeah, about cyber security. What would be the top two or three things that you would recommend that a C XO should have on his or her checklist? >> One is, you know, understanding all your end point, so understanding everything that's in your network. And it's an easy to say, but it's a very hard thing to do, especially when you have external facing applications. And you have a lot of different networks, so understanding your scope of devices and understand. You know, that way you could understand, to start to collect and fill up that C M G B and understand. Okay, if I have a patch that wasn't applied, how many devices were impacted? You know, how quickly can I get those remediated s so that you know, I think understanding the technical scope of your organization is important because it's very difficult to understand your risks, you know, rating if you will. If you don't understand the tools you have in place and where your potential holes maybe, ah, and then understanding you know your core data. So you know what is in your data that would potentially create a potential risk, even a financial risk? Certainly we go through all the insurance process, right? And even insurance now for cyber liability insurance. You know, the forms for five years ago were much different than the forms that are being filled out today. Much different. A lot more detail, a lot more drill down. So even just going through that process alone drives you to actually go and collect all this information that I'm talking about today, you know, so understanding your internal environment in understanding you know, those endpoints understanding the scope of your data management. And then I think it's around developing a sound strategy that is not just short term but short term and long term, with investments not just in tools, but also processes training those components. >> Did you look a tte security and responding to security is part of, ah, business continuity, as opposed to sort of a bespoke initiative. It is, There's business >> continuity and d are both have components of security, but it is truly what a way to ensure that you're you stay in business, right, and and And if people don't view it that way, then there's a lot of organizations that have been either crippled, not necessary put out of business but impacted extremely large. You know, financial impact with unmanaged breaches that actually went on way too long, right? And they weren't able to detect it, you know? So I think that there's a component there where you have to really think about what's the scope of the work, what the scope of the risk and how much do we need to invest? >> And you see service now. And I'm spending so much time in security this week because I'm excited about what I saw on Monday at the financial analyst meeting and who, talking to folks about this very important topic, you see, service now is playing a role in solving this problem. >> I do because we're a big user of GRC. So we already went down the audit route with service now years ago s Oh, this is just another extension I see of not just audit controls but being more proactive on the security side. And so, since all of our information is in this platform anyhow, we have a ton of opportunity toe automate and manage a lot of the things that again could have potentially gone unnoticed for a period of time simply because a manpower or logs if you ever had a review logs from some of these devices. I mean, trying to find the needle in the haystack is very difficult. So tools are extremely important in this space. Humans cannot meet this challenge alone at all. >> You just make a tad cloud. You wish, right? Awesome. Bart, this is I'LL give you the last word so that your impressions on knowledge sixteen. >> I'm excited, You know, the way it's grown again The way that they're really being purposeful about how they're building out their platform and truly trying to solve the enterprise problems to me is just it shows a very strategic, well thought out plan by service now. And as customers, you know and partners, you know, that's that's what you want to see from a company. So for me, I'm just very pleased where the platforms going. It's exciting how much they've grown. But the way that they've been able to invest in the right things, I feel and truly integrate things into the platform, even acquisitions that they had on and truly make it part of the platform versus and add on, I think, is really differentiating them from a lot of products that have grown in a similar matter but become unwieldy to manage because they're just pieced together. So I'm very, very excited, >> Fantastic. The cube securing knowledge for our audience that Bart, you have full of a lot of knowledge and really appreciate you coming on the Cuban and sharing. >> Yeah, appreciate it. Nice seeing you guys. >> All right, Keep it right there, everybody. We'LL be back with our next guests right after this. We're live knowledge. Sixteen from the Mandalay Bay Hotel in Las Vegas, right back. >> Every once in a while.