Sand Hill Road to the heart of Silicon Valley it's the cute presenting the people first Network insights from entrepreneurs and tech leaders when I'm John Ferrari with the cube I'm the co-host also the founder of Silicon angle me we are here on Sand Hill Road at Mayfield for the people first conversations I'm John furry with the cube weird Allen being global CTO and IT of innovation at Procter & Gamble formerly the same position at coca-cola has done a lot of innovations over the years also a reference account back in the day for web methods when they call on the financing of that one of the most famous IPOs which set the groundwork for web services and has a lot of history going back to the 80s we were just talking about it welcome this conversation on people first network thank you for inviting me so the people first network is all about people and it's great to have these conversations you're old school you were doing some stuff back on the 80s talking about doing RPA 3270 you've been old school here yeah I go back to APL as my first programming language went through the the third generation languages and of course the old 30 to 70 emulation which is what we know today is our PA one of the cool things I was excited to hear some of your background around your history web methods you were a reference call for venture financing of web methods which was financed on the credit card for the two founders husband and wife probably one of the most successful I appeals but more importantly at the beginning of the massive wave that we now see with web services this is early days this was very early days when I was at DHL we were looking at what we're gonna do for the future and in fact we built one of the first object-oriented frameworks in C++ at the time because that was all that was available to us or the best was available we rejected Corbis and we said look if we're gonna go this direction and one of my developers found web methods found philip merrick it was literally at the time working out of his garage and had this technology that was going to allow us to start moving into this object-oriented approach and I remember the day Robin Vasan form a field called and said hey I'm thinking about investing in web methods what do you think about it and not only was it one of the first startups that I ever worked with but it's actually the first time I met anybody in the venture community way back in nineteen I think 1997 is what had happened and that was a computing time in computer science and then the rest is history and then XML became what it became lingua franca for the web web services now Amazon Web Services you see in cloud computing micro services kubernetes service meshes this is a new stack that's being developed in the cloud and this is the new generation you've seen many waves and at Procter & Gamble formerly coca-cola you're the same role you have to navigate this so what's different now what's different say 15 20 years ago how are you looking at this market how you implementing some of the IT and infrastructure and software development environments I think what's change is you know when we got into the the early 2000s Nicolas car came out and said IT doesn't matter and I think anybody that was an IT had this very objectionable response initially but when you step back and you looked at it what she realised was in many cases IT didn't matter and those were those areas that were non-competitive those things that could be commoditized and it was completely right the reality is IT has always mattered that technology does give you a competitive advantage in certain markets and certain capabilities for a company but back then we had to go out and we had to purchase equipment we had to configure the equipment there was a lot of heavy lifting in corporations just did not want to invest the capital so they outsource the stuff wholesale I think General Motors was the first one that just out sourced everything and was followed by other companies including Procter & Gamble the decision at that time was probably right but as we go forward and we see what's happened with corporations we see the valuations of corporations the amount of return on equity based on the on the capital that's being invested we can see that data is important we can see that agility flexibility is key to competing in the future and therefore what's changing is we are now moving into an age of away from ERP so we're moving into an age away from these outsource providers on a wholesale basis and using it selectively to drive down costs and allowing us to free up money in order to invest in those things that are most important to the company so you're saying is that the folks naturally the server consolidation they've bought all this gear all this software over you know 18-month rollouts before they even see the first implementation those are the glory days of gravy trains for the vendor's yeah not good for the practitioners but you're saying that the folks who reinvested are investing in IT as a core competency are seeing a competitive advantage they certainly are you know I think I made the statement front of a number of the vendors and a few years ago and people were not comfortable with it but what I said was like you gone are the ears of these 10 20 million dollar deals gone are the ears of the million two million dollar deals we're in the ear of throwaway technology I need to be able to use and invest in technology for a specific purpose for a specific period of time and be able to move on to the next one it's the perfect time for startups but startups shouldn't be looking at the big picture they should be looking at the tail on these investments let me try things let me get out in the market let me have a competitive advantage in marketing which is most important to me or in supply chain those are the areas that I can make a difference with my consumers and my customers and that's where the investments have to go so just in constant of throwaway technology and you know you'd also be said of you know being more agile though interesting to look at the cloud SAS business model if Amazon for us I think that's the gold standard where they actually lower prices on a per unit basis and increase more services and value but in the aggregate you're still paying more but you have more flexibility and that's kind of a good tell sign so that you're seeing that ability to reuse either the infrastructure that's commoditized to shift the value this is are people having a hard time understanding this so I want to get your reaction to how should I tea leaders understand that the wave of cloud the wave of machine learning what a I can bring to the table these new trends how how should leaders figure this out is there a playbook as there are things that you've learned that you could share you know that there's really a playbook it's still early on everyone's looking for one cloud fits all the reality is whether it's Google whether it's Amazon whether it's Microsoft whether it's IBM all clouds are different all clouds have our special are purpose-built for different solutions and I think as an IT leader you have to understand you're not going to take everything and lift and shift that's what we used to do we're now in the position where we have to deconstruct our business we have to understand the services the capabilities that we want to bring to market and not lock ourselves in its building blocks its Legos we're in the period of Legos putting these things together in different manners in order to create new solutions if we try to lock ourselves in the past of how we've always financed things how we've always built things then we're not going to be any better off in the new world than we were in the old alan i want to get your reaction to to two words our PA and containers well as i said earlier our PA is 3270 emulation from the 1980s and for those of us that are old enough to remember that i I still remember scraping the the old green screens and and putting a little process around it it what's nice though is that we have moved forward machine learning and AI and other other capabilities are now present so that we can do this I actually played around with neural nets probably back in 1985 with an Apollo computer so that tells you how far back I go but technologies change processing speeds change everything the technology trends are allowing us to now to do these things the question that we have is also a moral dilemma is are we trying to replace people or are we trying to make improvements and I think that you don't look at our PA as a way simply to replace work it's a way to enhance what we're doing in order to create new value for the customer or for the consumer in our case I think in the in the area of containers you know again been around for a while been around for a while it's just another another approach that we're not we don't want lock in we don't want to be dependent on specific vendors we want the portability we want the flexibility and I think as we start moving containers out to the edge that's where we're gonna start seeing more value as the business processes and the capabilities are spread out again the idea of centralized cloud computing is very good however it doesn't need to be distributed what's interesting I find about the conversation here is that you mentioned a couple things earlier you mentioned the vendors locking you in and saying here's the ERP buy this and with this you have to have a certain process because this is our technology you got to use it this way and you were slave to their their tech on your process serve their tech with containers and say orchestration you now the ability to manage workloads differently and so an interesting time there's that does that change the notion of rip and replace lift and shift because if I a container I could just put a container around it and not have to worry about killing the old to bring in the new this is on the fundamental kind of debate going on do you have to kill the old to bring in the new well you need to kill the old sometimes just because it's old it's time to go other times you do need to repackage it and other times I hate to say it you do need to lift and shift if you're a legacy organization they have a long history such as most of the manufacturing companies in the world today we can't get rid of old things that quickly we can't afford to a lot of the processes are still valid as we're looking to the future we certainly are breaking these things down into services we're looking to containerize these things we're looking to move them into areas where we can compute where we want to when we want to at the right price we're just at the beginning of that journey in the industry I still think there's about five to seven years to go to get there now I'll talk about the role of the edge role of cloud computing as it increases the surface area of IT potentially combined with the fact that IT is a competitive advantage bring those two notions together what's the role of the people because you used to have people that would just manage the rack and stack I'm provisioning some storage I'm doing this as those stovepipes start to be broken down when the service area of IT is bigger how does that change the relationship of the people involved you know you win with people at the end of the day you don't win with technology you know a company of such as Proctor and Gamble and I think what's happened if you look at historically the ERP vendors came out probably 99 2000 and it used to be and remember these I'm old to be honest with you but I remember that we used to have to worry about the amount of memory we were managing we had to be able to tune databases in all of this and the vendors went ahead and they started automating all those processes with the idea that we can do it better than a human and a lot of people a lot of the technology talent then started leaving the organizations and organizations were left with people that we're focusing on process and people a process excuse me process and the the the business which is very good because you need the subject matter experts going forward we have to reinvest in people our people have the subject matter expertise they have some technology skills that they've developed over the years and they've enhanced it on their own but we're in this huge change right now where we have to think different we have to act different and we have to behave differently so doubling down on people is the best thing that you can do and the old outsource model of outsourcing everything kind of reduces the core competency of the people yeah now you got to build it back up again exactly I mean we when we left at P&G 15 years ago about 5,000 people left the organization when we outsource them when we outsource the technology to our partner at that time now it's time we're starting to bring it back in we've brought the network team back in and stood up our own sock in our own NOC for the first time in years just this past year we're doing the same thing by moving things out to the cloud more and more is moving to the cloud we're setting up our own cloud operations and DevOps capabilities I can tell you having been on both sides of it it's a lot harder to be able to bring it back in than it is to take it out and you know interesting proctoring games well known as being a very intimate with the data very data-driven company the data is valuable and having that infrastructure NIT to support the data that's important what's your vision on the data future of the data in the world well I think data is has a value to itself but when you tie it to products you tie it to your customers and consumers it's even more valuable and we're in the process now of things that we used to do completely internally with our own technology or technology partners we're now moving all of that out into the cloud now and I must say cloud its clouds plural again going back to certain clouds are better for certain things so you're seeing a dramatic shift we have a number of projects underway that are in the cloud space but for customers and consumers number of cloud projects in the way for our own internal employees it's all about collecting the data processing the data protecting that data because we take that very seriously and being able to use it to make better decisions I want to get your reaction on two points and two quite lines of questioning here because I think it's very relevant on the enterprise side you're a big account for the big whales the old ERP so the big cloud providers so people want to sell you stuff at the same time you're also running IT innovation so you want to play with the new shiny new toys and experiments start up so if startups want to get your attention and big vendors want to sell to you the tables have kind of turned it's been good this is a good it's a good buyers market right now in my opinion so what's your thoughts on that so you know start with the big companies what do they got to do to win you over well they got to look like how they got to engage and for startups how do they get your attention I think the biggest thing for either startup or large companies understanding the company you're dealing with whether it's Procter & Gamble whether it's coca-cola whether it was DHL if you understand how I operate if you understand how decisions are made if you understand how I'm organized that's gonna give you an a competitive advantage now the large corporations understand this because they've been around through the entire journey of computing with these large corporations the startups need to step back and take a look and see where do I add that competitive advantage many times when you're selling to a large corporate you're not selling to a large corporate you're selling two divisions you're selling two functions and that's how you get in I've been working with startups as I said back since web methods and it was just a two-person company but we brought them in for a very specific capability I then took web methods with me when I left DHL I took them to GE when I left GE I took them to ing because I trusted them and they matured along the way I think finding that right individual that has the right need is the key and working it slowly don't think you're gonna close the deal fast if you're start-up know it's gonna take some time and decide if that's in your best interest or not slow things down focus don't try to boil the ocean over too many of them try to boy you're right Jimmy people try to boil the ocean get that win one win will get you another one which will get you another win and that's the best way to succeed get that beachhead Ellen so if you could go back and knowing what you know now and you're breaking into the IT leadership's position looking forward what would you do differently can do a mulligan hey what would you do differently well you know I think one of the one of the dangers of being an innovator in IT is that you really are risk taker and taking risks is counterculture to corporations so I think I would probably try to get by in a little bit more I mean someone once told me that you know you see the force through the trees before anybody else does your problem is you don't bring people along with you so I think I would probably slow down a little bit not in the adoption of technology but I'd probably take more time to build the case to bring people along a lot faster so that they can see it and they can take credit for it and they can move that needle as well yeah always sometimes early adopters and pioneers had the arrows on the back as they say I've had my share now thanks for sharing your experience what's next for you what's the next mountain you're going to climb well I think that as we're looking forward latency is still an issue you know we have to find a way to defeat latency we're not going to do it through basic physics so we're gonna have to change our business models change our technology distribution change everything that we're doing consumers and customers are demanding instant access to enhanced information through AI and m/l right at the point where they want it and that means we're now dealing with milliseconds and nanoseconds of having to make decisions so I'm very interested in looking at how are we going to change consumer behavior and customer behavior by combining a lot of the new technology trends that are underway and we have to do it also with the security in mind now before we security was secondary now as we're seeing with all of the hacks and the malware and everything that's going on in the world we have to go in and think a little bit different about how we're gonna do that so I'm very much engaged in working with a lot of startups I live here in the Silicon Valley I commute to Cincinnati for Procter & Gamble I'm spending time and just flew in from tel-aviv literally an hour ago I'm in the middle of all the technology hotspots trying to find that next big thing and it's a global it's global innovation happens everywhere and anywhere the venture community if you look at the amount of funds it used to be invested out of the Silicon Valley versus the rest of the world it continues to be on a downward trend not because the funding isn't here in the Silicon Valley but because everyone is recognizing that innovation and technology is developed everywhere in the world Alan Bain was the CTO global CTO and IT innovator there at the cube conversation here in San Hill Road I'm John for a year thanks for watching you

(upbeat music) >> Hello, everyone, welcome to theCUBE's presentation of the AWS Startup Showcase. We're in Season two, Episode three, and this is the topic of MarTech and the Emerging Cloud-Scale Customer Experiences, the ongoing coverage of AWS's ecosystem of large scale growth and new companies and growing companies. I'm your host, John Furrier. We're excited to have Tim Barnes, Global Director, General Manager of Advertiser and Marketing at AWS here doing the keynote cloud-scale customer experience. Tim, thanks for coming on. >> Oh, great to be here and thank you for having me. >> You've seen many cycles of innovation, certainly in the ad tech platform space around data, serving consumers and a lot of big, big scale advertisers over the years as the Web 1.0, 2.0, now 3.0 coming, cloud-scale, roll of data, all big conversations changing the game. We see things like cookies going away. What does this all mean? Silos, walled gardens, a lot of new things are impacting the applications and expectations of consumers, which is also impacting the folks trying to reach the consumers. And this is kind of creating a kind of a current situation, which is challenging, but also an opportunity. Can you share your perspective of what this current situation is, as the emerging MarTech landscape emerges? >> Yeah, sure, John, it's funny in this industry, the only constant has changed and it's an ever-changing industry and never more so than right now. I mean, we're seeing with whether it's the rise of privacy legislation or just breach of security of data or changes in how the top tech providers and browser controllers are changing their process for reaching customers. This is an inflection point in the history of both ad tech and MarTech. You hit the nail on the head with cookie deprecation, with Apple removing IDFA, changes to browsers, et cetera, we're at an interesting point. And by the way, we're also seeing an explosion of content sources and ability to reach customers that's unmatched in the history of advertising. So those two things are somewhat at odds. So whether we see the rise of connected television or digital out of home, you mentioned Web 3.0 and the opportunities that may present in metaverse, et cetera, it's an explosion of opportunity, but how do we continue to connect brands with customers and do so in a privacy compliant way? And that's really the big challenge we're facing. One of the things that I see is the rise of modeling or machine learning as a mechanism to help remove some of these barriers. If you think about the idea of one-to-one targeting, well, that's going to be less and less possible as we progress. So how am I still as a brand advertiser or as a targeted advertiser, how am I going to still reach the right audience with the right message in a world where I don't necessarily know who they are. And modeling is a really key way of achieving that goal and we're seeing that across a number of different angles. >> We've always talked about on the ad tech business for years, it's the behemoth of contextual and behavioral, those dynamics. And if you look at the content side of the business, you have now this new, massive source of new sources, blogging has been around for a long time, you got video, you got newsletters, you got all kinds of people, self-publishing, that's been around for a while, right? So you're seeing all these new sources. Trust is a big factor, but everyone wants to control their data. So this walled garden perpetuation of value, I got to control my data, but machine learning works best when you expose data, so this is kind of a paradox. Can you talk about the current challenge here and how to overcome it because you can't fight fashion, as they say, and we see people kind of going down this road as saying, data's a competitive advantage, but I got to figure out a way to keep it, own it, but also share it for the machine learning. What's your take on that? >> Yeah, I think first and foremost, if I may, I would just start with, it's super important to make that connection with the consumer in the first place. So you hit the nail on the head for advertisers and marketers today, the importance of gaining first party access to your customer and with permission and consent is paramount. And so just how you establish that connection point with trust and with very clear directive on how you're going to use the data has never been more important. So I would start there if I was a brand advertiser or a marketer, trying to figure out how I'm going to better connect with my consumers and get more first party data that I could leverage. So that's just building the scale of first party data to enable you to actually perform some of the types of approaches we'll discuss. The second thing I would say is that increasingly, the challenge exists with the exchange of the data itself. So if I'm a data control, if I own a set of first party data that I have consent with consumers to use, and I'm passing that data over to a third party, and that data is leaked, I'm still responsible for that data. Or if somebody wants to opt out of a communication and that opt out signal doesn't flow to the third party, I'm still liable, or at least from the consumer's perspective, I've provided a poor customer experience. And that's where we see the rise of the next generation, I call it of data clean rooms, the approaches that you're seeing, a number of customers take in terms of how they connect data without actually moving the data between two sources. And we're seeing that as certainly a mechanism by which you can preserve accessibility data, we call that federated data exchange or federated data clean rooms and I think you're seeing that from a number of different parties in the industry. >> That's awesome, I want to get into the data interoperability because we have a lot of startups presenting in this episode around that area, but why I got you here, you mentioned data clean room. Could you define for us, what is a federated data clean room, what is that about? >> Yeah, I would simply describe it as zero data movement in a privacy and secure environment. To be a little bit more explicit and detailed, it really is the idea that if I'm a party A and I want to exchange data with party B, how can I run a query for analytics or other purposes without actually moving data anywhere? Can I run a query that has accessibility to both parties, that has the security and the levels of aggregation that both parties agree to and then run the query and get those results sets back in a way that it actually facilitates business between the two parties. And we're seeing that expand with partners like Snowflake and InfoSum, even within Amazon itself, AWS, we have data sharing capabilities within Redshift and some of our other data-led capabilities. And we're just seeing explosion of demand and need for customers to be able to share data, but do it in a way where they still control the data and don't ever hand it over to a third party for execution. >> So if I understand this correctly, this is kind of an evolution to kind of take away the middleman, if you will, between parties that used to be historically the case, is that right? >> Yeah, I'd say this, the middleman still exists in many cases. If you think about joining two parties' data together, you still have the problem of the match key. How do I make sure that I get the broadest set of data to match up with the broadest set of data on the other side? So we have a number of partners that provide these types of services from LiveRamp, TransUnion, Experian, et cetera. So there's still a place for that so-called middleman in terms of helping to facilitate the transaction, but as a clean room itself, I think that term is becoming outdated in terms of a physical third party location, where you push data for analysis, that's controlled by a third party. >> Yeah, great clarification there. I want to get into this data interoperability because the benefits of AWS and cloud scales we've seen over the past decade and looking forward is, it's an API based economy. So APIs and microservices, cloud native stuff is going to be the key to integration. And so connecting people together is kind of what we're seeing as the trend. People are connecting their data, they're sharing code in open source. So there's an opportunity to connect the ecosystem of companies out there with their data. Can you share your view on this interoperability trend, why it's important and what's the impact to customers who want to go down this either automated or programmatic connection oriented way of connecting data. >> Never more important than it has been right now. I mean, if you think about the way we transact it and still too today do to a certain extent through cookie swaps and all sorts of crazy exchanges of data, those are going away at some point in the future; it could be a year from now, it could be later, but they're going away. And I think that that puts a great amount of pressure on the broad ecosystem of customers who transact for marketers, on behalf of marketers, both for advertising and marketing. And so data interoperability to me is how we think about providing that transactional layer between multiple parties so that they can continue to transact in a way that's meaningful and seamless, and frankly at lower cost and at greater scale than we've done in the past with less complexity. And so, we're seeing a number of changes in that regard, whether that's data sharing and data clean rooms or federated clean rooms, as we described earlier, whether that's the rise of next generation identity solutions, for example, the UID 2.0 Consortium, which is an effort to use hashed email addresses and other forms of identifiers to facilitate data exchange for the programmatic ecosystem. These are sort of evolutions based on this notion that the old world is going away, the new world is coming, and part of that is how do we connect data sources in a more seamless and frankly, efficient manner. >> It's almost interesting, it's almost flipped upside down, you had this walled garden mentality, I got to control my data, but now I have data interoperability. So you got to own and collect the data, but also share it. This is going to kind of change the paradigm around my identity platforms, attributions, audience, as audiences move around, and with cookies going away, this is going to require a new abstraction, a new way to do it. So you mentioned some of those standards. Is there a path in this evolution that changes it for the better? What's your view on this? What do you see happening? What's going to come out of this new wave? >> Yeah, my father was always fond of telling me, "The customer, my customers is my customer." And I like to put myself in the shoes of the Marc Pritchards of the world at Procter & Gamble and think, what do they want? And frankly, their requirements for data and for marketing have not changed over the last 20 years. It's, I want to reach the right customer at the right time, with the right message and I want to be able to measure it. In other words, summarizing, I want omnichannel execution with omnichannel measurement, and that's become increasingly difficult as you highlighted with the rise of the walled gardens and increasingly data living in silos. And so I think it's important that we, as an industry start to think about what's in the best interest of the one customer who brings virtually 100% of the dollars to this marketplace, which is the CMO and the CMO office. And how do we think about returning value to them in a way that is meaningful and actually drives its industry forward. And I think that's where the data operability piece becomes really important. How do we think about connecting the omnichannel channels of execution? How do we connect that with partners who run attribution offerings with machine learning or partners who provide augmentation or enrichment data such as third party data providers, or even connecting the buy side with the sell side in a more efficient manner? How do I make that connection between the CMO and the publisher in a more efficient and effective way? And these are all challenges facing us today. And I think at the foundational layer of that is how do we think about first of all, what data does the marketer have, what is the first party data? How do we help them ethically source and collect more of that data with proper consent? And then how do we help them join that data into a variety of data sources in a way that they can gain value from it. And that's where machine learning really comes into play. So whether that's the notion of audience expansion, whether that's looking for some sort of cohort analysis that helps with contextual advertising, whether that's the notion of a more of a modeled approach to attribution versus a one-to-one approach, all of those things I think are in play, as we think about returning value back to that customer of our customer. >> That's interesting, you broke down the customer needs in three areas; CMO office and staff, partners ISV software developers, and then third party services. Kind of all different needs, if you will, kind of tiered, kind of at the center of that's the user, the consumer who have the expectations. So it's interesting, you have the stakeholders, you laid out kind of those three areas as to customers, but the end user, the consumer, they have a preference, they kind of don't want to be locked into one thing. They want to move around, they want to download apps, they want to play on Reddit, they want to be on LinkedIn, they want to be all over the place, they don't want to get locked in. So you have now kind of this high velocity user behavior. How do you see that factoring in, because with cookies going away and kind of the convergence of offline-online, really becoming predominant, how do you know someone's paying attention to what and when attention and reputation. All these things seem complex. How do you make sense of it? >> Yeah, it's a great question. I think that the consumer as you said, finds a creepiness factor with a message that follows them around their various sources of engagement with content. So I think at first and foremost, there's the recognition by the brand that we need to be a little bit more thoughtful about how we interact with our customer and how we build that trust and that relationship with the customer. And that all starts with of course, opt-in process consent management center but it also includes how we communicate with them. What message are we actually putting in front of them? Is it meaningful, is it impactful? Does it drive value for the customer? I think we've seen a lot of studies, I won't recite them that state that most consumers do find value in targeted messaging, but I think they want it done correctly and there in lies the problem. So what does that mean by channel, especially when we lose the ability to look at that consumer interaction across those channels. And I think that's where we have to be a little bit more thoughtful with frankly, kind of going back to the beginning with contextual advertising, with advertising that perhaps has meaning, or has empathy with the consumer, perhaps resonates with the consumer in a different way than just a targeted message. And we're seeing that trend, we're seeing that trend both in television, connected television as those converge, but also as we see about connectivity with gaming and other sort of more nuanced channels. The other thing I would say is, I think there's a movement towards less interruptive advertising as well, which kind of removes a little bit of those barriers for the consumer and the brand to interact. And whether that be dynamic product placement, content optimization, or whether that be sponsorship type opportunities within digital. I think we're seeing an increased movement towards those types of executions, which I think will also provide value to both parties. >> Yeah, I think you nailed it there. I totally agree with you on the contextual targeting, I think that's a huge deal and that's proven over the years of providing benefit. People, they're trying to find what they're looking for, whether it's data to consume or a solution they want to buy. So I think that all kind of ties together. The question is these three stakeholders, the CMO office and staff you mentioned, and the software developers, apps, or walled gardens, and then like ad servers as they come together, have to have standards. And so, I think to me, I'm trying to squint through all the movement and the shifting plates that are going on in the industry and trying to figure out where are the dots connecting? And you've seen many cycles of innovation at the end of the day, it comes down to who can perform best for the end user, as well as the marketers and advertisers, so that balance. What's your view on this shift? It's going to land somewhere, it has to land in the right area, and the market's very efficient. I mean, this ad market's very efficient. >> Yeah, I mean, in some way, so from a standards perspective, I support and we interact extensively with the IB and other industry associations on privacy enhancing technologies and how we think about these next generations of connection points or identifiers to connect with consumers. But I'd say this, with respect to the CMO, and I mentioned the publisher earlier, I think over the last 10 years with the rise of programmatic, certainly we saw the power reside mostly with the CMO who was able to amass a large pool of cookies or purchase a large sort of cohort of customers with cookie based attributes and then execute against that. And so almost a blind fashion to the publisher, the publisher was sort of left to say, "Hey, here's an opportunity, do you want to buy it or not?" With no real reason why the marketer might be buying that customer? And I think that we're seeing a shift backwards towards the publisher and perhaps a healthy balance between the two. And so, I do believe that over time, that we're going to see publishers provide a lot more, what I might almost describe as mini walled gardens. So the ability, great publisher or a set of publishers to create a cohort of customers that can be targeted through programmatic or perhaps through programmatic guaranteed in a way that it's a balance between the two. And frankly thinking about that notion of federated data clean rooms, you can see an approach where publishers are able to share their first party data with a marketer's first party data, without either party feeling like they're giving up something or passing all their value over to the other. And I do believe we're going to see some significant technology changes over the next three to four years. That really rely on that interplay between the marketer and the publisher in a way that it helps both sides achieve their goals, and that is, increasing value back to the publisher in terms of higher CPMs, and of course, better reach and frequency controls for the marketer. >> I think you really brought up a big point there we can maybe follow up on, but I think this idea of publishers getting more control and power and value is an example of the market filling a void and the power log at the long tail, it's kind of a straight line. Then it's got the niche kind of communities, it's growing in the middle there, and I think the middle of the torso of that power law is the publishers because they have all the technology to measure the journeys and the click throughs and all this traffic going on their platform, but they just need to connect to someone else. >> Correct. >> That brings in the interoperability. So, as a publisher ourselves, we see that long tail getting really kind of fat in the middle where new brands are going to emerge, if they have audience. I mean, some podcasts have millions of users and some blogs are attracting massive audience, niche audiences that are growing. >> I would say, just look at the rise of what we might not have considered publishers in the past, but are certainly growing as publishers today. Customers like Instacart or Uber who are creating ad platforms or gaming, which of course has been an ad supported platform for some time, but is growing immensely. Retail as a platform, of course, amazon.com being one of the biggest retail platforms with advertising supported models, but we're seeing that growth across the board for retail customers. And I think that again, there's never been more opportunities to reach customers. We just have to do it the right way, in the way that it's not offensive to customers, not creepy, if you want to call it that, and also maximizes value for both parties and that be both the buy and the sell side. >> Yeah, everyone's a publisher and everyone's a media company. Everyone has their own news network, everyone has their own retail, it's a completely new world. Tim, thanks for coming on and sharing your perspective and insights on this key note, Tim Barnes, Global Director, General Manager of Advertiser and Market at AWS here with the Episode three of Season two of the AWS Startup Showcase. I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: From London, England, it's theCUBE, covering Coupa Inspire '19 EMEA, brought to you by Coupa. >> Hey, welcome to theCUBE! Lisa Martin on the ground in London at Coupa Inspire. Because I'm in the UK, I have to say, you know of Sting, right? Well, guess who's here? Somebody cool enough to go by one name, it's Chandar, the CMO at Coupa. Welcome back! >> Great, Lisa, it's great to be here. >> So, this morning kicked off with Rob's talk all about community. One of the interesting things about Coupa is this community that you guys have built. Talk to me about, I know $1.3 trillion of spend is going through the Coupa platform, the community. Talk to me about how you've cultivated this community at Coupa. >> Yeah, it's a great question. Now, if you take a step back, you know, people don't buy features, people buy tribal feelings. And if you think it, if you look at, like, you know, if you look at a product like Harley-Davidson. Anybody can go buy any bike, but people are not buying the features, they're buying the tribal feeling of being part of that community. If you look at a product like Peloton, you know, people can go buy, have any stationary bike or any workout bike today. But they want to be part of that community. And as my wife tells me, Sephora, right? I don't have a lot of experience with that-- >> She's right. >> She is right, great, (Lisa laughs) thanks for the endorsement there. But again, it is about being part of the community and people like that and stuff, and that's what we're doing is, it's the features or the capability, it's the community the tribal feeling, and that's what Rob was talking about, the inspirational attributes of these different people that are part of this community, and how we're trying to, how we are building this community by showcasing the great leaders and their attributes and how they're transforming change in their organizations, and that's what we're creating in this conference, the feeling, the #emotion, of I want to be part of this cool club, and that's what we're doing. >> You know, a lot of companies talk about customer first, customer centricity. The community here is really helping Coupa innovate on its own technology. Talk to me about some of the things that, you know, since we last spoke, a few months ago, that have been inspired by the voice of the community. >> Yeah, so, you know, there is this concept of co-creation that Rob talked about today with our community. And a lot of the community is inspired by the community and it's for the community. And we have a number of innovations, 80 plus innovations that have been inspired in the last one year by the community. And even a concept like Source Together that Rob talked about, and the idea of Source Together is how can we come together as one community and drive the best negotiated savings together with a supplier, this is an idea that's been co-created with the community. So there's a number of different things. You look at community intelligence, Rob talked about commodity insights, as well as a number of other capabilities that we are showcasing today, has been driven, co-created, inspired by the community. And that's what's great. You want to set the innovation agenda for the industry by having this community inspire us. In fact we had our customer advisory board at every conference that is happening for us, and that's what drives to a lot of the innovation that we do today. >> Speaking of customers, Rob shared a lot of examples during his keynote this morning. I lost count of how many of your Coupa Spendsetters were mentioned, other customers, all with very strong business, measurable business outcomes. I know tomorrow in your keynote, you're going to be talking with a number of customers. But some of the things that are interesting about what Rob shared is these are examples that aren't just about refining procurement and reducing spend and, it's much more transformative. Give me some of your favorite examples of where this is beyond improving procurement. >> Yeah, it's a great question. It's a great question. And we have a number of stories, for example, tomorrow in my keynote, I'm going to be talking about storytelling, right. I'm going to be talking about how we can inspire the community through storytelling, and great storytelling starts with great storytellers. And these Spendsetters, and we can see them in the hallways here, we have found about 15 of them, and they're all great storytellers for one reason. They have great transformative stories in business spend management, but what makes them a great storyteller is that they're telling a story beyond the boundaries of the business spend management. Let me give a couple of examples, right. So one story that I'll highlight tomorrow is about Jarkko, the CPO of Telia. Now, I don't know if we know Telia, but 60% of the word's internet traffic goes through Telia. >> 60%? >> 60%. So everyday morning, checking out coupa.com that we all do. >> Every day. >> Or I'm looking at some less popular sites like Facebook or LinkedIn or anything else, you're probably on the Telia network, especially in this part of the world. And their challenge, their business spend management challenge is, they're pretty fragmented across the Nordics and the Baltics and other regions, and now with Jarkko, he's a strategic crusader, not a hired gun, but more of a driven crusader who's come in, transformed the sourcing function, made it more strategic, consolidated seven systems into one system with Coupa, and had 20,000 employees using that as well as all the different people for sourcing, so that they get the global benefits of scale across the regions. Now that's a great business spend management story, but what makes him a great storyteller, he's telling a story beyond the boundaries of business spend management, because he's not talking about savings attainability, he's talking about environmental sustainability, and the story he talks about is what their initiative at a board level is, you know, zero emission and zero waste by 2030, and how the work that his team is doing is directly impacting that board level initiative on how are they driving a communication strategy across the supplier base to get their environmental plans into the Telia's operations, and how me measures plans and progress of every supplier in their CO2 emission, and how that's going to be an explicit part of how they work with their suppliers, and how he is the trusted advisor that he is actually challenging everybody to rethink this whole idea of source to pay. That is telling a boundary beyond the boundaries of business spend management, it's telling a story. So that's one example, right. >> Is that a gentleman who's in procurement in finance within an organization? >> He is the CPO, the procurement-- >> That is having an impact on the sustainability footprint of the company. >> That's right, so directly associating with the initiative at a board level, right. So he's shifted it, by shifting the storytelling from talking about savings attainability to environmental sustainability, he shifted the perception of the organization from something that's operational to something that's very strategic in the organization. So that's one good storytelling. The other one I'll highlight, an example, is Matthieu at Global Fund. Now the Global Fund is the world's largest financier of fighting malaria, AIDS, HIV in 100-plus countries. They disperse $4 billion every year for that. And they have this partner called OneWorld.org, it's powered by Coupa, that Matthieu and his team are doing. So he could get a great business spend management story. He can say, you know, I've driven digital transformation, I've done 99.9% of my POs are electronic, and I've come to this new age of where, you know, on contract spend is being done, et cetera. Now what makes him a great storyteller, he's telling the story beyond the boundaries of BSM again. He's talking about a story of how this, the work that his team is doing, is directly impacting saving 32 million lives. How they are treating millions of people, get the right treatment for HIV, help pregnant mothers or on HIV, they get the right treatment on time, so that the babies don't get infected with HIV, and how they're distributing hundreds of millions of mosquito nets throughout the world for preventing malaria, through this OneWorld tool that's powered by Coupa to get the right medication on time. So that's millions and millions of lives, but the speed and ease of every single medication to get there, has an impact on the life of that person, and that's the story he's telling. >> This is so interesting, because it's so common for businesses to tell the common success story, and a lot of what Coupa shares of customers holding those big white cards with big numbers of what they're saving are very impactful. What was the idea behind the Spendsetters program, 'cause when I was reading a few of them in preparation to come here, it seems like it was a little bit more about the person and how that individual has facilitated transformation. Tell me about the concept-- >> It's a great point. There's two components to it, right. One is empirical, two is emotive. And if you look at both concepts, one of them is the empirical value that, yes, ultimately Coupa is about driving value, and that has to be as a company, has a capability of driving value to our customers. And that's the empirical value of you have driven so much saving, so much percentage of spend, and you know, millions of dollars, billions of dollars savings et cetera. Procter & Gamble, for example, $2.5 billion in savings. That's the empirical value. It's very clear, that's the value. But behind that is a person, and that is the emotive story of what is that person, what is the personal story, what have they gone through in their life, what's their, you know, nurture and nature, and how that's influenced them that's becoming, that made them into the great leader today, and that's the emotive stories we're trying to also tell on the Spendsetters site. So there's the value side of the story, and then there is the emotive side of the story, and the spendsetters.com is purely on telling the human stories, because behind every purchase order is a person, and we're telling the story of that person. >> So as we look at the changing role of the Chief Procurement Officer, the changing role of finance decision makers, not just here in the UK, and I know Coupa recently did a study that showed that 96% of UK financial decision makers said, "Hey, I don't have complete visibility over all my spend", so big opportunity there, but even from a transformation perspective, the Spendsetters examples, how is that showing that Coupa can fundamentally help a business not just change procurement, but have such wide lasting impacts? >> Yeah, I think ultimately, if you look at procurement, you know, for it to go as going from operation to strategic, you're just getting that seat at the table. And getting that seat at the table in any executive discussion is about first aligning to some strategic initiative that is important at that executive table. So more as we align these value stories and the value that procurement is driving, through these strategic initiatives that are important at the board level, at the executive level, the more the profile and the more the R-E-S-P-E-C-T, as we like to say, and get that seat at the table, and that's what this whole Spendsetters program is aiming to do is A, showcase the personal heroes, and B, showcase how they're telling stories that align to bigger level initiatives, that's getting them get that elevate their position and get that seat at the table. And that's what the plan is there. >> So, lots of growth. Second quarter results, I was taking a look at those, revenues up, billings are up, very high renewal rates. So from a customer satisfaction perspective, the data is there to show that Coupa is going in the right direction. From your perspective, how influential are your existing, your incumbent customers in helping prospective customers evaluate Coupa and go, this is the right decision for us. >> It's a great question. You know, I say we live in a peer-bound world, right, where it's really, we more and more, first of all, 80 to 90% of buyers' journeys are self directed, because buyers have more power than ever before, and second of all, anything we do within our personal lives as well as in business decisions, we rely more on peers and people we trust to help us make those decisions, right? From that perspective, our best sellers, the best sellers we have in this conference, are our customers. I just came from an executive luncheon, where we had 50% of the room was customers and 50% of the room was prospects, and we had our best sellers, not our salespeople, our customers talking to the prospects, in real, authentic conversations of what's value, what's their journey, what did they struggle with, and what are the lessons learned, and how did they get there. And those are really meaningful interactions that ultimately is going to make a prospect, influence a prospect on what decision they have to make. >> Absolutely. >> So that's very, very important from us, and then providing a platform for this authentic dialog and these authentic interactions. That's important for us. And also, I think, you know, ultimately in a SaaS business, the true measurement of success, I say is two things, right. One is what I call lifetime value, and two is the number of brand advocates. So the idea there if someone is staying with you longer and giving you lifetime value, and is shouting from the rooftop that I really love my interaction with this brand, then invariably you're driving value to them in a long term way. And that's really the true measure of success, and that's what excites us from our perspective. >> And is the foundation of that trust? >> The foundation of that is two things. It's trust based on value, right, and you've got to deliver value, and Rob has a great line where he talks about, it is not about customer satisfaction, it's about customer success. 'Cause many times a customer may be satisfied, may not really know what their success metrics really mean, but it's not about sometimes a customer may not be satisfied, but really be successful because you're driving the true metrics what is important to the customer. So once you get the value delivered, and do it in an open, authentic way, then, in that case, there's trust that build, and based on that trust, you earned that trust, and that becomes the foundation of the lifetime value. >> We were talking about, well, we, Rachel Botsman was talking about the importance of a brand, any brand, earning trust. A lot of times she gave that example in her keynote where she showed three brand logos, Uber, Facebook, and Amazon, and said, trust is so contextual and so subjective, but clap for which brand you trust the most. And it's so interesting when she started talking about, Facebook got the least, in fact Facebook got no applause at all, I was expecting a few folks (Chandar laughs) to maybe do some clapping, but Amazon being the clear winner, and I thought, yeah, I trust Amazon to deliver whatever it is that I buy when they say they're going to deliver it, and she said she trusts them to do the same, but, would you trust them to pay their taxes on time-- >> Chandar: Sure. >> So when she started talking about trust being subjective and contextual, it really kind of changes the whole dynamic. >> Chandar: It does. >> So that earned trust, but also the ability to reduce the risk that your customers are facing, whether it's overpaying suppliers or paying duplicate invoices, that trust risk balance seems pretty critical as well. >> Ti does, it does. It's an interesting perspective. I think because, in that case of Amazon, I think there's operational trust, that they're going to get the job done and deliver the whatever you ordered in one day with frame or two days with frames, this is operational trust. But is there a trust in the sense of purpose is where she was going with, right. And today for organizations, especially with the millennial crowd, as being customers as well as employees, the question is, you can get operational trust, but you also have a sense of purpose that they trust in, and have that be, and be authentic as an organization. And that's why is say it is not being, you talk about AI, as artificial intelligence, the real AI is authentic interactions. >> Lisa: Authentic interactions. >> And that's really the authenticity as a brand, being open, and acknowledge your failures but strive for excellence for success, and have this open platform with your customers, and always look towards adding value. I think that invariably, over time, creates this trust feeling that ultimately drives long term lifetime value for us. So that I think is the most important thing. >> Absolutely. So tell me again, which three customers are going to be on stage with you tomorrow sharing their stories? >> It's great, I have three. One, Procter & Gamble, a company that my mom knows about, my 86-year-old mom. So one of the greatest brands, so that's a great story about, again, they have a great business spend management story, but they're telling a story beyond the boundaries of business spend management and it's a fun story. And then we're going to have the Global Fund. Again, I told you, one of the world's largest financier of fighting HIV, malaria and AIDS. And we're going to have Telia, one of the largest telecommunications providers. >> Excellent. So really kind of showing the breadth of the technologies and the industries that Coupa helps to transform. >> And the breadth of the personalities, and the people behind that are driving all this change. >> Excellent, well Chandar, thank you for joining me on theCUBE. I wish we were going to be here tomorrow to see your keynote, but it sounds exciting and the Spendsetter program is certainly one that I think is quite differentiated in terms of telling those transformative stories that you said are both empirical and emotional. >> Yes, thank you Lisa, it's great to be here. >> Likewise. >> Great. >> For Chandar, I am Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE from Coupa Inspire London. Thanks for watching.

(upbeat tech music) >> Announcer: From London, England it's theCUBE, covering Coupa Insp!re 19 Emea. Brought to you by Coupa. >> Hey, welcome to theCUBE, Lisa Martin on the ground in London at Coupa Insp!re 19. Very pleased to welcome back to theCUBE the CEO and Chairman of Coupa, Rob Bernshteyn. Rob, welcome back. >> Thank you so much, thank you for being with me. >> It's great to be here, so we are in with all of these customers and partners, this has been busy all day. You started things off today with a great keynote. I was telling you before we went live, I lost count of how many big customer examples were sprinkled, and I think infused throughout your keynote. I was looking at some numbers, Coupa just keeps doing this. 5x increase in spend under management since 2016, that's only three years. You guys have thousands of customers, five million suppliers on the platform, lot of growth. What are some of the key drivers to this great growth that you're seeing? Well a couple of things, I mean first of all, this is a huge total addressable market. Every company in the world could do a better job of the way they manage their business spending, and they could use information technology, hopefully from Coupa to help make that happen, and we are so proud to cultivate this community of like minded, thoughtful professionals that want to apply best practices, best in-class modern technology solutions like the ones we offer obviously, to drive quantifiable, measurable, outcomes for the companies that they work for. So in many ways, this is a celebration of our customer community and it's a wonderful opportunity to be with our customers here like this every year in Europe and every year in the United States, and now frankly in lots of other places around the world. >> So one of the themes that was also expressed during the keynote was Rachel Botsman's theme of trust and I think about the open community, the open platform and the community that Coupa is building, there's a lot of earned trust there that Coupa has earned from this growing community. Talk to me about what that means to you and the whole team and how it's influencing the direction that Coupa is going in. >> It means a lot to me personally frankly. The O in Coupa stands for Open, and that means not only technically open in terms of APIs and integrations, but it means open in spirit, open in dialogue, honest, transparent communications. I feel that our industry in enterprise software has a legacy or a history of a lot of PowerPoints, and a lot of demos, but frankly, quite a few failures of large scale deployments and a whole host of sectors. And we want to be part of the solution, we want to have an open, authentic, honest communication with our customers, with our prospective customers in the sales process, with our partners, with all of my Coupa colleagues, so we can avoid the friction and nonsense of politics that often gets in the way of driving measurable, meaningful value for every constituent. It's a very, very important thing to me, it's important to my team, and that's something we're doing our very best to cultivate in this Coupa community that we're creating. >> Speaking of cultivation, Coupa is cultivating this category of Business Spend Management. Tell us a little bit more about that and where you are with that. >> Sure, Business Spend Management is a pretty straightforward three words to describe the fact that our buyers and our customers are responsible for literally trillions of dollars and pounds and dollars and euros of spend all over the world. And as information becomes more and more transparent, the buyer, the one who's repsonsible for that spend becomes more and more powerful. So we sit on the side of that buyer, we give them information technology solutions from sourcing, to inventory management, to spend analytics, to procurement, to expensing, to invoicing, to payments, to supplier performance. All the capabilities needed to help them make the best purchasing decisions for their organizations, and help their companies become more profitable so that every one of these Coupa community customers we have here could get more bang for their buck and be that much more operationally efficient frankly in driving their own company's visions and missions and whatever it is that they bring to the world. And that's very aspirational for us and we're excited that so many have come on board with this establishment of the Business Spend Management category with us. >> So if we look at the PIPE, as you were calling it this morning, P-I-P-E, procure, invoice, pay, expense, I memorized that, you've got this one platform that can deliver all of that to this growing community of users who have the ability to get that visibility. That is one of the biggest challenges, I was reading some stats recently about the number of businesses, they were the percentages of businesses that don't have complete visibility over their spend, it's high. >> It's very high, we just did a study of 250 or so CFOs in the UK, and they're doing a great job at budgeting and reporting, but they have minimal visibility into their supply relationships, especially with what's happening here with Brexit. They have minimal visibility in supply risks, supply chain risks, and one of the ingredients that I think we're very special at and I'm proud of is the U in Coupa, the user centricity. In order to have visibility into your spend, you have to have adoption, you have to have people purchasing, spending, expensing, paying, processing invoices, everything that you just mentioned through this pipe on one centralized platform with a common UI layer, User Experience layer or User Interface, common business logic layer, common data model, use of community intelligence to help you make the best purchasing decisions, spend decisions. So we're really on the forefront of something very, very exciting because this adoption level is happening through this user centricity, and it's given these companies control and visibility of spend, and what could be more important to driving profitability, sustained business development? I think we're in a very unique position to help these customers. >> So is one of the biggest challenges for those, think it was 96% of those UK financial decision makers that you guys surveyed said, "We don't have complete visibility." Is it because they have legacy siloed solutions that don't give them that common layer? Or is it because maybe that and a mixture of users just not adopting it because it's not as intuitive to use? >> It's a number of things. First of all, for every process, whether it's procurement, expenses, invoicing, or payments, they have seperate systems to your point. Some cases, they don't even have systems. They're calling in orders, they're handling paper invoices, so there are different levels of maturity in each of those four areas. So one is getting them on to a common platform where all of those are orchestrating together. Secondarily, there's an opportunity to create synergy between those areas, so a lot of things that are getting expensed really should be preapproved and should be routed toward preferential pricing that procurement can negotiate on behalf of the user. Many times invoices are duplicate coming in from suppliers and AP departments are so excited that they pay quickly, but they're not necessarily sure whether they received the goods and services that the invoice is for. So having one common platform, that's the C in Coupa, Comprehensive. One common comprehensive platform for all these business processes is critical, leveraging the synergy of all them working together is critical, and getting that widespread user adoption is part of the secret formula here. >> Let's talk about the community. It's big, it's growing, 1.3 trillion in spend managed, and I watched our video back that you and I did a few months ago, it was 1.2. So that was four months ago, and you showed a bar chart today of just the last 12 months, had to look up this way to see that, so this community that has the ability to help derive and leverage the insights, talk to me about the insights and being able to help businesses go from reactive to predictive as a game changer for Coupa. >> Sure, it's a huge game changer and we really aspire to be, if you will, the tail that wags the dog in the enterprise software industry overall because the enterprise software industry, in effect, every customer is on their own island using information technology for a certain business process. What we've done with community intelligence is we've aggregated, anonymized, and sanitized data from the customer base and then are distilling insights that we could be prescriptive about. So we could tell our customers and we're telling them, "Hey, our community is having challenges with such "and such supplier based on literally perhaps millions "of dollars and millions of pounds in transactional spend. "We recommend you consider this supplier in "that same category because our community is having "great success with them. "The products are being shipped on time, "there's no war over invoicing, there's no breakage in "what's delivered." Those are just some examples, we're helping them think through commodities. A lot of our customers forgiven commodity, they have 20, 30 different suppliers. We're helping them think through in their industry. How can they do supply consolidation that makes sense based on benchmarking across the entire industry? We're helping them avoid supplier risk, we're helping them avoid fraud, we're identifying employees that may be expensing things or doing things that are fraudulent based on the collective intelligence of what we're seeing around the entire world in real time and we're prescribing actions to be taken before payments go out. So these are just some examples of what we're doing, we're doing things in benchmarking based on community intelligence, we're really just at the tip of the sphere of what's possible and we've prescribed tens of thousands of prescriptions in our platform to our customers. Many of them are taking those prescriptions and are making their businesses more operationally fit, and more agile, which is something we're very, very proud of. >> Speaking of those prescriptions, I think the number you shared this morning was 22,000 prescriptions delivered in one year? >> In the last 12 months, that's right. >> So we've got to talk about acceleration 'cause we've talked about the COUP, the acceleration, that is one example of that. I also saw that you guys have gotten, customers are doing approvals 30% faster than they were a year ago. You're getting mid-market customers up and running in four months, large enterprises up in eight months, talk to me about that acceleration that you guys are achieving. >> Absolutely, the A in Coupa is about Accelerated, it's about learning from our entire customer base and taking those learnings and making them part of best practices-based appointments so we could go faster and faster and faster. We look at retail customer, we've done dozens of retail customers, large and small. We know how to set up catalogs, we know how to set up workflow, we know how to think through the analytics that they need. So when they get going with the deployment from Coupa, they can get up and running way faster than with going back to five or six years ago where you have to think about it from scratch and a blueprint. They could leverage the insight from the community with doing that in mid-market, with doing that in subverticals like credit unions, for example. Biotechs, we're doing it in insurance, we're doing it in pharma, all hosts of industries, and I think as we learn from every deployment and collect those insights, we're going to be able to drive value faster and faster to our customers. And the other element that's important here is it's not just taking the customer live, all of our customers grow with us. They get more and more value every year, this is why our renewal rate is so strong and customers add more business with us because they're getting value and that value continues to grow, and that's really what value as a service is about. We're not a software company, and we're not a software as a service company. We're truly a value as a service company, which is a very different concept and one that we're cultivating in this marketplace. >> What are some of your favorite, I know you love being in front of the customers, what are some of your favorite examples that really show the value that Coupa is delivering to the changing role of procurement, making that girl or guy much more strategic and much more of a partner to the business? >> Sure, I shared some examples this morning that I really loved and appreciated celebrating some of our trendsetters, or what we call spendsetters. You look at Zalando, our retailer where they weren't necessarily going to take them so seriously about savings, but when they went to marketing and said, "We can give you much more bang "for your marketing budget "so you could reach more potential consumers," well of course they embraced that. And we gave them a usable opportunity, a usable platform for doing that as similar Zalando, they engaged. Now they have something like 85% spender management. When we started working with them, they had zero purchase orders, everything was the wild west. You look at, I was just speaking to one of our customers at Procter & Gamble just five minutes ago here at the expo. They've run more than 50 billion pounds of spend through the Coupa platform, 50 billion. That's not easy, but they've done that in just a couple of years with us, and not only did they have visibility spent, but they're saving, they're routing purchases to preferred suppliers, so the list just goes on and on and on our website, at Coupa.com on the Customers tab, you'll see obviously dozens of customers holding up signs of the real measurable value they're getting from working with us and that's something that we really take a lot of pride in. >> That speaks for itself. Last question for you Rob, talk to me about those strategic partnerships that Coupa has. I know some news coming out today with what you guys are doing with American Express. >> Sure, we've entered the payment space and we entered it because our customer community asked us for it. They said, "Look, if we're procuring goods "and services through you, why wouldn't we all, "and we're doing invoice and we're doing all "of the components of the pipe, "why wouldn't we also go deeper into payments, help us pay." Because many now have to log in to all these different ERP systems and kick off batch process, so we went into payments. And in payments, we have a host of partnerships. Now, today we announced the relationship with American Express in the UK and Australia for virtual credit card payments. Now it's very simple in Coupa, someone needs a good or service, it gets routed through workflow for approval. Once approved, a dynamic credit card number is generated by American Express, the individual makes the purchase, and all the reconciliation, the back-end is handled by Coupa. All the reporting, the visibility, the insights to price points and category assessments are there and visible and the company's in a position to fine tune their spend profile. So that's just one example, and we're doing things in dynamic discounting and accelerating payments. We've just launched today in general availability and Robby will be discussing it tomorrow ahead of business acceleration. We launched our batch payments capability, the ability to do invoice payments in batch along any rail, whether it be banking relationships, whether it be eCheck, whether it be credit card, going into one environment and kicking off batch payments without having to wait for all these different ERP systems to take hold. So we're really at the, in my mind, at the very beginning of addressing a huge market opportunity, we're proud of what we've achieved so far. I'm particularly proud of the customer community developing around us, and we're excited about the days, weeks, months, quarters, and years to come. >> So you talked about, last question, the big TAM, in this total adjustable market. What are some of the core elements to Coupa's path to a billion in revenue? >> We're not as exciting to many investors as a hot startup that grows really quickly and maybe has some sort of viral component to it. We've been at this for over 10 years, we've grown thoughtfully, we've grown carefully. The growth is fast 30, 40 plus percent, but it's thoughtful and careful, it's one customer at a time. We're careful in how much we spend on sales and marketing, especially want customers to choose us rather than us hard-selling them on everything, we want the offering to sell itself. We have an ecosystem of systems integrators, now more than 3,000, Centric, APMG, Deloitte, and others that are certified on deploying Coupa. We're expanding our product footprint, our customers now use on average 4.7 applications from us and they're consuming those applications rather than us pushing them on them. We're expanding globally, we're expanding in terms of the enterprise business and the mid-market business. Our mid-market business is now really at scale and scaling beautifully, it's a beautiful business model. So those are just some of the vectors in which we'll continue to expand, but I think the path to $1 billion for us is very clear, and ultimately comes down to execution, delivering for every customer, making sure they're getting value from working with us year in and year out, and I think before you know it, we'll be on the doorstep of that $1 billion. >> Excellent. Rob, it's been a pleasure having you back on theCUBE. Thank you for having theCUBE out here in London, we appreciate your time. >> Thank you. >> For Rob Bernshteyn, I am Lisa Martin, you're watching theCUBE from Coupa Insp!re 19. Thanks for watching. (upbeat tech music)

>> Announcer: From Sand Hill Road in the heart of Silicon Valley, it's "theCUBE," presenting the People First Network, insights from entrepreneurs and tech leaders. (upbeat electronic music) >> Hi, everyone, welcome to this special "CUBE" conversation. I'm John Furrier, co-host of "theCUBE" and co-founder of SiliconANGLE Media. We are on Sand Hill Road at Mayfield Fund, the venture capitalist funding startups. We're here with Tara Vaishnav, who is the vice president of technology, innovation, and advanced analytics at The Clorox Company, as part of the People First Network co-creation of content with SiliconANGLE and Mayfield. Tara, welcome. >> Well, thank you very much for having me! And congratulations to Mayfield on 50 amazing years, wow! >> 50 years they have been in Sand Hill Road, they've been investing in some great startups. They really have a great philosophy about people first. >> Yep. >> And you've had a very distinguished career in technology, IT, in big companies. Long tenures, too, like, you know, decades. >> Yes, oh, yes. >> And now at Clorox, a consumer company. So talk about your journey, where your experience is, where you started, tell us about your background. >> Yeah, well, I grew up in India, if it's not obvious already. I came to the United States after I finished my undergrad in India, I had an undergrad in electrical engineering. Came over here, got my electrical engineering master's at the University of Southern California, go Trojans. And after that, I worked for several companies, but mostly in health care and life sciences. So the past four years, I have been the vice president of IT at The Clorox Company, which is a CPG company, so quite a bit of a learning curve there. >> Health care, serving patients, now you're serving consumers. >> That's right, that's right. >> Clorox is well-known for their analytics, well-known for technology, innovation. >> Tara: Yes, yeah. >> I've interviewed a bunch of folks at Clorox, they've always been at the head of the curve. >> Tara: Yeah. >> Like Procter & Gamble, you guys, consumer companies have to be. >> Tara: Definitely. >> Now, more than ever, digital disruption is an opportunity for companies to have a better relationship with their customers. >> Tara: Absolutely. >> And changes the makeup of their brand as well, since it touches the customer. How do you see that evolving? What's the current state of the art of some of the things you're working on? >> Yeah, it's pretty fascinating, actually. And I hate to use cliches, but things like consumer experience is really at the heart of it. We're a brand company, at the end of the day, and how people feel about us is really, really important. It's not so much, it is about the products, and we make amazing products, but how do they feel about us as a company, and how do they engage with us differently than they did before? We do not buy the same way as we did even five years ago. And so, learning that, learning the new, evolving consumer, and getting really close to what's important to them, that's really on the forefront of how we think about our digital transformation. >> One of the cool things that's great about the People First Network that we've been doing-- >> Tara: Yeah. >> This content, is that we have a lot of luminaries who have had a storied career, like yourself, have looked at the changes and the waves of innovation that have come before, and now, more than ever, omnichannel, how you advertise and reach customers, how they interact, how they buy and consume. When you look at health care and some of the things you've been involved in, in the '90s, remember, client-server was big, they had computers. >> Tara: (laughs) Oh, yes. Oh, yeah. >> IT has changed a lot. >> It has. >> What is the most striking thing that you see from those changes in this new wave that we're living now? >> You know, so, (sharply exhales) I was fortunate in that I decided that data was where it was at, right from the beginning of my career. That's how I kind of made my way up my career ladder, is really that focus on data. I had a software engineering background, but really felt the power of data to change things. What has happened, if I think about some of the big changes, or the key milestones, if you will, in my career, one of the first real big changes came about when data, which was up until that point really sort of coming along for the ride, you had applications, applications had data, when data actually became the mainstay and the applications kind of came and went. I remember one of my mentors in the past, a past CIO, actually, telling me that applications come and go, but data is forever. And when that really started to become a thing was when big data and big data technologies became, came of enterprise age, if you will, along with cloud technologies. That marriage really, that was, I think, the tipping point where the things that you could do with data and the way that you could get insights from data really took on a life of its own, if you will. >> You know, one of the things, that's a great point. I'd love to get your insights as a leader and as you grew with data, because it wasn't really obvious at that time. Certainly, people had databases and that, the big data, the applications had data. >> Tara: Sure, sure, yeah. >> But it was always kind of old-school data. "Hey, get some data, let's look at the demographics, "let's look at the Consumer Price Index," blah, blah, blah, all kinds of data. But access to data became driven by the database. >> Tara: Correct. >> So there might've been data available-- >> Tara: Yeah. >> But getting it in the hands of the practitioners even now is hard, but even back then, you might not have had the data. So as a leader who's sought data-- >> Tara: Yeah. >> As a strategic advantage. By the way, that's rare early, isn't it? So, (laughs) awesome for you. >> You know, I got lucky. >> How did you get through that? How did you lead the organization to make data at the center of things? >> It is a very good question. There were a few things that started to take shape once big data and the marriage of the cloud started to happen. It started to open up doors, break down organizational silos. When you brought that data together, the business value, or the potential business value that could be unlocked, became obvious. The way that we approached it, though, under my leadership, I always believe in small steps. I believe in leapfrog, but I believe that you have to feed innovation or innovative thinking out in small doses. People are not always ready to consume it in one big (laughs) fell swoop, if you will. So doing things incrementally, but with an idea towards transformation, was, I think, the secret sauce that I used to approach these things. So as a couple of examples, in Kaiser Permanente, when I worked there for almost seven years, I was instrumental in bringing their big data platform to life. But it was not just a matter of, "Here's the technology "for technology's sake." It was a matter of, "Here are some real problems "that we are having a lot of difficulty in solving today. "Let's show you how we can solve those differently "in an amazing way." And we proved that. It was an experiment, that we proved that, and that really started to get us those adopters, if you will. >> John: So take baby steps. >> Yep. >> Don't try to do wholesale changes hardcore. >> Correct, correct. >> Let people get used to it. >> Yeah. >> This must've had an impact on culture. >> Yes, yes. >> And this comes up a lot in the DevOps culture we've seen in the past decade, even now. >> Yeah. >> Getting people to change has become very difficult. >> Yes! >> John: We all know that person-- >> Yes. >> Has their project that's their baby, adding features, "No, don't take my "baby away from me." >> Tara: Yes, yes, yes. >> "I don't want to change." >> (laughs) Oh, yeah. >> How do you make that happen? How do you lead people through that very difficult transformation at an emotional level, on a business level? What's the strategy there? What's your technique? >> Yeah, so, again, back to, you have to show results. And you have to show results incrementally in a way that people can appreciate them and consume them. You have to look at technology from a business value perspective. Business value comes first, technology is just along for the ride. That's how people see it, and that's how they should see it. >> John: Mm-hm. >> It's what you can do with the technology that makes a difference. So, some of the techniques that I have used in the past have been, number one, you do have to find like-minded people in the organization. You can't go at it alone. You have to start to build your clan, if you will, of innovators, so you've got a target audience that you're chippin' away at, slowly, but you've got to build credibility. Because results build credibility. Credibility builds trust. Trust removes barriers. So that's kind of the way that I approach things. I bring like-minded people together, I find people in the organization, of the people that are resistant, that I can bring onto "my side," if you will, and I use their knowledge, their insights, their knowledge of how this person who is obviously a stakeholder, and an important stakeholder, how they think and what's important to them, and I use that language and that person to be able to approach individuals in different ways. It's about culture. >> And it's always good to make them, you know, success has many fathers, if you will-- >> Yep. >> Is always an expression. Making them feel part of the solution. >> Absolutely. >> So I got to ask you a question. Is having a software background, coming into the tech world and the business world, this, now, you're starting to see applications really dictate to the infrastructure. Elastic clouds are out there. >> Tara: Yes. >> You have data as a resource now. If you were entering the market as a young software engineer today, and you were asked to come in and make an impact, knowing what you know, how do you see the world today? Because, you know, a lot of software engineers creating value from men, and, now, a lot more women are coming on board. >> Yeah, yeah. >> It's still lower numbers, but still, software's not just that software engineer. >> Yeah. >> It's software architecture, it's software engineering, software development, UX, UI-- >> Tara: Yeah. >> Analytics, a lot of range-- >> Tara: Yeah, yeah. >> Of software opportunities. How would you attack the marketplace today if you were coming in and entering the workforce or in the middle of your career? >> Yes, you know, when I look at my career, which is a little longer than I'd like to admit, I see myself as a young undergraduate student in India. I was one of six girls in a class of about 50. I was striving to get a degree in what was called, actually, electronics and telecommunication. I was in a minority. I came over here to the United States, and I continued to be in the minority. I look at my career, which is more than 25 years old. I have also continued to stay in the minority throughout that career. The biggest difference between where I am now in my career versus where I was then is I don't care as much anymore that I'm in the minority. (both laugh) Right? What is fascinating to me, though, John, is when I look at some of the very young students, actually, we had a high school intern program for the first time this year at Clorox, which is actually interesting. We typically have college interns, but this year, Clorox, a 105-year-old company in the middle of the Silicon Valley, having the ability to see that the very, very young generation can think very differently, and bringing in the high school intern, or a set of high school interns, to help with that journey, I think, was forward-thinking for the company. And those kids, the confidence that they have? They are not shackled by knowing too much, you know? >> John: Yes. >> But they know what's relevant, they know how to make things happen, and boy, do they know how to use technology to make problems that we consider problems that would take months, happen so quickly. They were with us for four weeks. In four weeks, they developed an app, a website. They developed our logo. They developed a PR video for us. They had an innovation showcase. In four weeks, four little students. >> It's interesting, for the first time (Tara laughs) in my career, I can admit that, from a self-awareness standpoint, "Well, I really don't know what I'm talking about." These young kids have a different view, because now their experiences are different. >> Tara: Yes. >> And so, the insight coming out of this new generation really is pretty compelling. >> Tara: It is. >> They are adding a lot more because there's been a shift in expectations, there's been a shift in experiences-- >> Tara: Yes. >> For this new generation, and they're at the forefront, so it's a big wave coming. What's your thoughts on that? Because analytics is a big part of your career now, and it always-- >> Tara: Yes, yes. >> Has been, but now, more than ever-- >> Yeah. >> The younger generation, they want instant gratification, they want value. >> They do. >> They don't want to wait and be told-- >> They do. >> They want to see the immediacy. >> They do. >> Talk about this new shift, this new younger generation. >> Yeah, yeah. You know, there used to be the good old days, where we could, say, put a product out there and, you know, eventually it kind of works its way into the consumer ecosystem, and then we'd get to hear back, over the course of time. Customers would call in with a recommendation or a complaint. It's very different now. Things are out there instantaneously. We put something out there, you're getting comments and reviews, some of them good, some of them not so good. It's out there, and it's out there instantly. And that also, the modern consumer is not shy. They kind of hide behind the keyboard, and they're putting their comments out there, right? (both laugh) They're the keyboard warriors! >> John: (laughs) Yeah. >> So being able to respond to that and having not just the data, but the ability to extract insights from data and to extract insights in real time, that is crucial. And so, gone are the days where you had months to do your analytics. You have to be able to do your analytics in the flow, you have to be able to take in new information, incorporate it into your models, be able to do predictive analytics on it. So technology and the way that it is evolving is super critical for survival these days. >> So, survival, and also competitive advantage, we've heard-- >> Oh, for sure. >> From other CIOs, and also CSOs, from a security standpoint-- >> Yes, yes. >> There's business risks involved. How real-time do you see the advantage being? Obviously, near real time is pretty much what people talk about. >> Yeah. >> Real time is to the second, and self-driving cars will certainly need that. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> But as a leader chasing the real-time holy grail-- >> Yeah. >> Seems to be a theme we hear. How do you react to that, and how do you view real-time data? >> There is definitely something that builds up to the richness of data that you can take advantage of in "real time." And I am saying "real time" in quotes because there is a contextuality associated with it. The wonder of modern advanced analytics and machine learning is that you have an existing model that you're tweaking and evolving with new information, and that model is serving as your guide as you receive new information. So, does it have to be reactive, or can it be proactive? You're building the insights, and then you're adding on new information as you see it. And you're using technology to help you make more holistic decisions. And at the end of the day, there is something to be said about the human aspect of it. The machine can give you guidance-- >> John: Yes. >> But the human being needs to make the decision. >> I'd love to ask you a quick question on that, because I think this is something that we talk about all the time. >> Yeah. >> Humans are critical in the equation, machines augment the humans. >> Yes. >> In the data world, if you're "data-driven," which has been (laughs) a cliche, "We're data-driven!" >> Tara: Yes, yes. >> It takes on multiple forms. >> Tara: Yes. >> I've seen multiple actors saying, "We're data-driven," but they're really just correlating data. >> Tara: Yeah. >> The causation side of it is, what's causing things, that's more of a management thing. >> Tara: Yeah. >> So causation and correlation are two different variables-- >> Tara: Yes. >> In the analytics field right now-- >> Tara: Yeah. >> That are being amplified as, you got to know the distinction between correlation, because you can correlate anything, causation is something that might be more designed towards figuring out something, and you really can't rest on one more than the other. >> Yeah. (laughs) >> Your thoughts on the balance between the two. >> You're talking to someone who worked in health care for-- (laughs) >> John: (laughs) I probably won't get you to continue. >> For almost seven years. Causation and correlation are-- >> John: More important than ever. >> Are more important than ever. And I think more and more, the boundary between what machines can do and how they can augment human beings, versus actually having the machines help you make decisions, it's getting fuzzier, and machines are able to do more and more. I mean, all of the knowledge that you could read about 24 hours a day cannot sit in your head. You have to be able to leverage machines to help you make those decisions. So as far as causation and correlation, I think the correlation is something that the machine can be the master of. It can see patterns where you may not even think to look for patterns. So I think that, let's give it up to the machines. Correlation is where-- >> John: They got that. >> The machines have got that, and you got to set them up so that they can do that for you. Causation is where the tricky area starts to happen. Because there is a lot to say, especially when you talk about doctors, about experience and working with individuals. Each individual is different. You can't say that the causation for this person is the same as that because the correlations are similar. No, you have to look, there are so many factors that go into what is causing-- >> John: Yeah. >> A disease or a condition in a person. So I think that is where the human element and experience really, really still make a difference. >> In the media business, we call it behavioral and contextual. >> Yes. >> Context is really important for really aligning-- >> It is. >> With whatever the problem statement may be. >> Yes, yes. >> Correlation, behavior, machines can do that. >> Correct. >> That's awesome, great, great, great insight there. A final question for you is, for other folks out there, CIOs or IT executives, as they look at the digital transformation journey, which, again, very cliche, but very real, there's a lot of opportunities, but also potential pitfalls if not executed properly. >> Tara: Yeah. >> Your thoughts on general roadmaps or best practices around how to tackle transformation, if they're doing it, coming in for the first time or at the beginning, or if they're in the middle of a digital transformation, and they're stuck in the mud-- >> Yeah, yeah. >> Or "Oh my God, "my head person quit. "I got to get more people." >> Yeah. >> "I need developers," or people on the back end of the transformation, different parts of the journey. What's your advice? >> Yeah, I've got a couple of, again, from the scars of my past, a couple of things that I think are important. Number one, when I joined Clorox, I had the stretch goal of actually building out their cybersecurity program. I had not done that in the previous part of my career. I was an enterprise architect, that's where I would spend most of my many years. But cybersecurity, and I hired the CSO and built out that program for Clorox, it puts a whole different lens on how you look at your transformation, and it is an important lens. And I think I would not have been rounded, as either an enterprise architect who's developing technology strategy or a digital technology innovator, if I did not have that lens of, there is risk that you need to consider. Now, the point to remember is that you can't over-rotate one way or the other. You have to consider risk and opportunity, and there's a fine line. And I think the smartest CIOs and senior executives know where that fine line exists, and are able to tell when you need to go this way or that way. So that's one thing that I would say, is don't lose that lens. Technology can do wonderful things for you, but so can the hackers from a different-- >> You got to be aware-- >> You've got to be aware. >> And then, you've got to shape it, too, as it evolves. Is that something that you see as important? >> You have to have that lens of, you're doing this wonderful, amazing thing, however, what if the unintended audience is able to access whatever you're doing? And what can they do with it? So that's one thing that I would say, is keep that balance in mind. Again, don't over-rotate one way or the other, but keep that balance in mind. The other thing that I would say is, innovation is a state of mind that needs to be nurtured and developed, and it needs to be sought from every part of the organization. The only way to scale innovation is to have everybody be an innovator in the organization. So that would be my advice, is innovation can come from the youngest high school intern, or, we actually just had someone at Clorox celebrate their 50th year at Clorox. So, you know-- >> John: Yeah. >> Innovation can come from anywhere in the organization. You have to always be ready, open-minded, and prepared to grab that opportunity when it happens. >> My final takeaway for this is in context to where we are now, we're on Sand Hill Road-- >> Yes. >> At Mayfield Fund, they're a venture capitalist. >> Yes. >> They fund early-stage and growth. >> Yep. >> The younger generation, we just talked about the insights that they can have, new shifts that are happening in experiences, expectations. The startups, more than ever, have an opportunity to have customers like Clorox. >> Tara: Yes, yes. >> What used to be, "Well, a startup, "risk, don't go through the, go through TSA, "and when you get approved, "then we'll talk to you," kind of thing. (Tara guffaws) It's a big, painful process. >> Used to be? >> Now, more than ever, startups want to land the big Clorox deals. >> Yes, yes. >> They want to show the value proposition, time to value, shortening, with cloud and other things. What's your advice to startups who want to sell to you or hope to, aspire to, be successful in the marketplace? >> You know, I love startups, and I spent a lot of time with them. What I have seen as differentiating in the startups that I have seen is, some of them, they're out there, they want your business. So they are looking at you from that, "Can I get your business?" And then there are other startups that, I'm sure they've got that lens, but they don't make it obvious to you. To them, the value is in working with you. You're a company that is well-reputed. You've got a ton of amazing data that can be used to develop your models. You've got a ton of insights and understanding of the business that you can get by just working with this "reputed" company, like Clorox. Those in itself, you can't put a tangible, material value on that, but that is what helps startups build relevant and amazing products. And that, in itself, is "payment." The money will come, but look to the experiences, look to the ability to leverage data, and, above all, look to how you can position your product in a way that it is solving a business problem. Don't do technology for technology's sake. >> So, your advice would be, don't focus on on the PO. If they're venture-backed, they probably have some runway. >> Yes. >> Focus on the value proposition. >> Absolutely, and learning how companies operate and what's important to them, take the time to do that. >> How about scale? Do you hear that a lot with startups, they want to try to use the value proposition? One, they have to get in the door and show value, so that's one. >> Tara: Of course. >> Kind of table stakes, get through the door. >> Okay, yep. >> Then it's more about how they can be operationalized. That becomes something I've seen with startups. What's your thoughts on that? Because one of the benefits of getting in the door is getting (laughs) in the door, but staying in-- >> Yeah. >> Is about operationalizing that new value proposition. How do you look at that as a leader? >> (sharply exhales) Yeah, the word operationalization is an interesting one. So, companies like Clorox, I mean, while I love to work with startups, I will tell you that I do experiments, four, six, eight weeks, we've got a metric. If we go beyond that, it's probably a project that needs to go through a different route. But we do these experiments, and we do them quickly. The thing that we do worry about is, "Okay, great startup, great product. "Is it enterprise-ready?" You know? And I think that is where a lot of startups struggle a little bit, is, can they prove to you that their product is Fort Knox, that it won't be a way through which your systems get hacked? Can they prove to you that they've got a good handle on where they are going, what their roadmap is, what capabilities they are developing in their roadmap? Can they showcase that to you in a way that makes sense to you? We're looking for companies that are not just here today and gone tomorrow, companies that are here for the long run. And then, even if they can't do all of that, show that you integrate really well with our other products. Because, guess what, if you don't work out so well for us, little startup, we want to be able to replace you. We want to have that option. And if you don't integrate seamlessly and can be plucked out and put back in again, then we're stuck with something that we can't extract from our environment. So they've got to think how we think, is what I would advise them. (laughs) >> Tara, thanks so much for this great insight. For startups out there, for folks entering their career, for other women who are looking to break into tech, we have a great inspirational leader here. >> Thank you. >> John: Thank you for spending the time, we really appreciate it. >> Thank you very much, really appreciate it. >> Thank you very much. I'm John Furrier. You're watching the People First program with SiliconANGLE and Mayfield. Thanks for watching. (upbeat electronic music)

>> From Cambridge, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE. Covering MIT Chief Data Officer and Information Quality Symposium 2019. Brought to you by SiliconANGLE Media. (futuristic music) >> Welcome back to Cambridge, Massachusetts everybody. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage. We go out to the events and we extract the signal from the noise. This is day two, we're sort of wrapping up the Chief Data Officer event. It's MIT CDOIQ, it started as an information quality event and with the ascendancy of big data the CDO emerged and really took center stage here. And it's interesting to know that it's kind of come full circle back to information quality. People are realizing all this data we have, you know the old saying, garbage in, garbage out. So the information quality worlds and this chief data officer world have really come colliding together. Robert Abate is here, he's the Vice President and CDO of Global IDS and also the co-chair of next year's, the 14th annual MIT CDOIQ. Robert, thanks for coming on. >> Oh, well thank you. >> Now you're a CDO by background, give us a little history of your career. >> Sure, sure. Well I started out with an Electrical Engineering degree and went into applications development. By 2000, I was leading the Ralph Lauren's IT, and I realized when Ralph Lauren hired me, he was getting ready to go public. And his problem was he had hired eight different accounting firms to do eight different divisions. And each of those eight divisions were reporting a number, but the big number didn't add up, so he couldn't go public. So he searched the industry to find somebody who could figure out the problem. Now I was, at the time, working in applications and had built this system called Service Oriented Architectures, a way of integrating applications. And I said, "Well I don't know if I could solve the problem, "but I'll give it a shot." And what I did was, just by taking each silo as it's own problem, which was what EID Accounting Firm had done, I was able to figure out that one of Ralph Lauren's policies was if you buy a garment, you can return it anytime, anywhere, forever, however long you own it. And he didn't think about that, but what that meant is somebody could go to a Bloomingdale's, buy a garment and then go to his outlet store and return it. Well, the cross channels were different systems. So the outlet stores were his own business, retail was a different business, there was a completely different, each one had their own AS/400, their own data. So what I quickly learned was, the problem wasn't the systems, the problem was the data. And it took me about two months to figure it out and he offered me a job, he said well, I was a consultant at the time, he says, "I'm offering you a job, you're going to run my IT." >> Great user experience but hard to count. >> (laughs) Hard to count. So that's when I, probably 1999 was when that happened. I went into data and started researching-- >> Sorry, so how long did it take you to figure that out? You said a couple of months? >> A couple of months, I think it was about two months. >> 'Cause jeez, it took Oracle what, 10 years to build Fusion with SOA? That's pretty good. (laughs) >> This was a little bit of luck. When we started integrating the applications we learned that the messages that we were sending back and forth didn't match, and we said, "Well that's impossible, it can't not match." But what didn't match was it was coming from one channel and being returned in another channel, and the returns showed here didn't balance with the returns on this side. So it was a data problem. >> So a forensics showdown. So what did you do after? >> After that I went into ICICI Bank which was a large bank in India who was trying to integrate their systems, and again, this was a data problem. But they heard me giving a talk at a conference on how SOA had solved the data challenge, and they said, "We're a bank with a wholesale, a retail, "and other divisions, "and we can't integrate the systems, can you?" I said, "Well yeah, I'd build a website "and make them web services and now what'll happen is "each of those'll kind of communicate." And I was at ICICI Bank for about six months in Mumbai, and finished that which was a success, came back and started consulting because now a lot of companies were really interested in this concept of Service Oriented Architectures. Back then when we first published on it, myself, Peter Aiken, and a gentleman named Joseph Burke published on it in 1996. The publisher didn't accept the book, it was a really interesting thing. We wrote the book called, "Services Based Architectures: A Way to Integrate Systems." And the way Wiley & Sons, or most publishers work is, they'll have three industry experts read your book and if they don't think what you're saying has any value, they, forget about it. So one guy said this is brilliant, one guy says, "These guys don't know what they're talking about," and the third guy says, "I don't even think what they're talking about is feasible." So they decided not to publish. Four years later it came back and said, "We want to publish the book," and Peter said, "You know what, they lost their chance." We were ahead of them by four years, they didn't understand the technology. So that was kind of cool. So from there I went into consulting, eventually took a position as the Head of Enterprise and Director of Enterprise Information Architecture with Walmart. And Walmart, as you know, is a huge entity, almost the size of the federal government. So to build an architecture that integrates Walmart would've been a challenge, a behemoth challenge, and I took it on with a phenomenal team. >> And when was this, like what timeframe? >> This was 2010, and by the end of 2010 we had presented an architecture to the CIO and the rest of the organization, and they came back to me about a week later and said, "Look, everybody agrees what you did was brilliant, "but nobody knows how to implement it. "So we're taking you away, "you're no longer Director of Information Architecture, "you're now Director of Enterprise Information Management. "Build it. "Prove that what you say you could do, you could do." So we built something called the Data CAFE, and CAFE was an acronym, it stood for: Collaborative Analytics Facility for the Enterprise. What we did was we took data from one of the divisions, because you didn't want to take on the whole beast, boil the ocean. We picked Sam's Club and we worked with their CFO, and because we had information about customers we were able to build a room with seven 80 inch monitors that surrounded anyone in the room. And in the center was the Cisco telecommunications so you could be a part of a meeting. >> The TelePresence. >> TelePresence. And we built one room in one facility, and one room in another facility, and we labeled the monitors, one red, one blue, one green, and we said, "There's got to be a way where we can build "data science so it's interactive, so somebody, "an executive could walk into the room, "touch the screen, and drill into features. "And in another room "the features would be changing simultaneously." And that's what we built. The room was brought up on Black Friday of 2013, and we were able to see the trends of sales on the East Coast that we quickly, the executives in the room, and these are the CEO of Walmart and the heads of Sam's Club and the like, they were able to change the distribution in the Mountain Time Zone and west time zones because of the sales on the East Coast gave them the idea, well these things are going to sell, and these things aren't. And they saw a tremendous increase in productivity. We received the 2014, my team received the 2014 Walmart Innovation Project of the Year. >> And that's no slouch. Walmart has always been heavily data-oriented. I don't know if it's urban legend or not, but the famous story in the '80s of the beer and the diapers, right? Walmart would position beer next to diapers, why would they do that? Well the father goes in to buy the diapers for the baby, picks up a six pack while he's on the way, so they just move those proximate to each other. (laughs) >> In terms of data, Walmart really learned that there's an advantage to understanding how to place items in places that, a path that you might take in a store, and knowing that path, they actually have a term for it, I believe it's called, I'm sorry, I forgot the name but it's-- >> Selling more stuff. (laughs) >> Yeah, it's selling more stuff. It's the way you position items on a shelf. And Walmart had the brilliance, or at least I thought it was brilliant, that they would make their vendors the data champion. So the vendor, let's say Procter & Gamble's a vendor, and they sell this one product the most. They would then be the champion for that aisle. Oh, it's called planogramming. So the planogramming, the way the shelves were organized, would be set up by Procter & Gamble for that entire area, working with all their other vendors. And so Walmart would give the data to them and say, "You do it." And what I was purporting was, well, we shouldn't just be giving the data away, we should be using that data. And that was the advent of that. From there I moved to Kimberly-Clark, I became Global Director of Enterprise Data Management and Analytics. Their challenge was they had different teams, there were four different instances of SAP around the globe. One for Latin America, one for North America called the Enterprise Edition, one for EMEA, Europe, Middle East, and Africa, and one for Asia-Pacific. Well when you have four different instances of SAP, that means your master data doesn't exist because the same thing that happens in this facility is different here. And every company faces this challenge. If they implement more than one of a system the specialty fields get used by different companies in different ways. >> The gold standard, the gold version. >> The golden version. So I built a team by bringing together all the different international teams, and created one team that was able to integrate best practices and standards around data governance, data quality. Built BI teams for each of the regions, and then a data science and advanced analytics team. >> Wow, so okay, so that makes you uniquely qualified to coach here at the conference. >> Oh, I don't know about that. (laughs) There are some real, there are some geniuses here. >> No but, I say that because these are your peeps. >> Yes, they are, they are. >> And so, you're a practitioner, this conference is all about practitioners talking to practitioners, it's content-heavy, There's not a lot of fluff. Lunches aren't sponsored, there's no lanyard sponsor and it's not like, you know, there's very subtle sponsor desks, you have to have sponsors 'cause otherwise the conference's not enabled, and you've got costs associated with it. But it's a very intimate event and I think you guys want to keep it that way. >> And I really believe you're dead-on. When you go to most industry conferences, the industry conferences, the sponsors, you know, change the format or are heavily into the format. Here you have industry thought leaders from all over the globe. CDOs of major Fortune 500 companies who are working with their peers and exchanging ideas. I've had conversations with a number of CDOs and the thought leadership at this conference, I've never seen this type of thought leadership in any conference. >> Yeah, I mean the percentage of presentations by practitioners, even when there's a vendor name, they have a practitioner, you know, internal practitioner presenting so it's 99.9% which is why people attend. We're moving venues next year, I understand. Just did a little tour of the new venue, so, going to be able to accommodate more attendees, so that's great. >> Yeah it is. >> So what are your objectives in thinking ahead a year from now? >> Well, you know, I'm taking over from my current peer, Dr. Arka Mukherjee, who just did a phenomenal job of finding speakers. People who are in the industry, who are presenting challenges, and allowing others to interact. So I hope could do a similar thing which is, find with my peers people who have real world challenges, bring them to the forum so they can be debated. On top of that, there are some amazing, you know, technology change is just so fast. One of the areas like big data I remember only five years ago the chart of big data vendors maybe had 50 people on it, now you would need the table to put all the vendors. >> Who's not a data vendor, you know? >> Who's not a data vendor? (laughs) So I would think the best thing we could do is, is find, just get all the CDOs and CDO-types into a room, and let us debate and talk about these points and issues. I've seen just some tremendous interactions, great questions, people giving advice to others. I've learned a lot here. >> And how about long term, where do you see this going? How many CDOs are there in the world, do you know? Is that a number that's known? >> That's a really interesting point because, you know, only five years ago there weren't that many CDOs to be called. And then Gartner four years ago or so put out an article saying, "Every company really should have a CDO." Not just for the purpose of advancing your data, and to Doug Laney's point that data is being monetized, there's a need to have someone responsible for information 'cause we're in the Information Age. And a CIO really is focused on infrastructure, making sure I've got my PCs, making sure I've got a LAN, I've got websites. The focus on data has really, because of the Information Age, has turned data into an asset. So organizations realize, if you utilize that asset, let me reverse this, if you don't use data as an asset, you will be out of business. I heard a quote, I don't know if it's true, "Only 10 years ago, 250 of the Fortune 10 no longer exists." >> Yeah, something like that, the turnover's amazing. >> Many of those companies were companies that decided not to make the change to be data-enabled, to make data decision processing. Companies still use data warehouses, they're always going to use them, and a warehouse is a rear-view mirror, it tells you what happened last week, last month, last year. But today's businesses work forward-looking. And just like driving a car, it'd be really hard to drive your car through a rear-view mirror. So what companies are doing today are saying, "Okay, let's start looking at this as forward-looking, "a prescriptive and predictive analytics, "rather than just what happened in the past." I'll give you an example. In a major company that is a supplier of consumer products, they were leading in the industry and their sales started to drop, and they didn't know why. Well, with a data science team, we were able to determine by pulling in data from the CDC, now these are sources that only 20 years ago nobody ever used to bring in data in the enterprise, now 60% of your data is external. So we brought in data from the CDC, we brought in data on maternal births from the national government, we brought in data from the Census Bureau, we brought in data from sources of advertising and targeted marketing towards mothers. Pulled all that data together and said, "Why are diaper sales down?" Well they were targeting the large regions of the country and putting ads in TV stations in New York and California, big population centers. Birth rates in population centers have declined. Birth rates in certain other regions, like the south, and the Bible Belt, if I can call it that, have increased. So by changing the marketing, their product sales went up. >> Advertising to Texas. >> Well, you know, and that brings to one of the points, I heard a lecture today about ethics. We made it a point at Walmart that if you ran a query that reduced a result to less than five people, we wouldn't allow you to see the result. Because, think about it, I could say, "What is my neighbor buying? "What are you buying?" So there's an ethical component to this as well. But that, you know, data is not political. Data is not chauvinistic. It doesn't discriminate, it just gives you facts. It's the interpretation of that that is hard CDOs, because we have to say to someone, "Look, this is the fact, and your 25 years "of experience in the business, "granted, is tremendous and it's needed, "but the facts are saying this, "and that would mean that the business "would have to change its direction." And it's hard for people to do, so it requires that. >> So whether it's called the chief data officer, whatever the data czar rubric is, the head of analytics, there's obviously the data quality component there whatever that is, this is the conference for, as I called them, your peeps, for that role in the organization. People often ask, "Will that role be around?" I think it's clear, it's solidifying. Yes, you see the chief digital officer emerging and there's a lot of tailwinds there, but the information quality component, the data architecture component, it's here to stay. And this is the premiere conference, the premiere event, that I know of anyway. There are a couple of others, perhaps, but it's great to see all the success. When I first came here in 2013 there were probably about 130 folks here. Today, I think there were 500 people registered almost. Next year, I think 600 is kind of the target, and I think it's very reasonable with the new space. So congratulations on all the success, and thank you for stepping up to the co-chair role, I really appreciate it. >> Well, let me tell you I thank you guys. You provide a voice at these IT conferences that we really need, and that is the ability to get the message out. That people do think and care, the industry is not thoughtless and heartless. With all the data breaches and everything going on there's a lot of fear, fear, loathing, and anticipation. But having your voice, kind of like ESPN and a sports show, gives the technology community, which is getting larger and larger by the day, a voice and we need that so, thank you. >> Well thank you, Robert. We appreciate that, it was great to have you on. Appreciate the time. >> Great to be here, thank you. >> All right, and thank you for watching. We'll be right back with out next guest as we wrap up day two of MIT CDOIQ. You're watching theCUBE. (futuristic music)

>> Announcer: From the Cosmopolitan Hotel in Las Vegas, Nevada, it's theCUBE. Covering Coupa Inspire 2019. Brought to you by Coupa. >> Welcome to theCUBE. Lisa Martin on the ground at Coupa Inspire '19 from the Vegas. I'm very pleased to welcome not Bono, not Sting, it's Chandar, the CMO of Coupa. Chandar, welcome to theCUBE. >> Lisa, thank you, it's great to be here today. >> This is a really cool event. Procurement is sexy. >> It is sexy. >> It can be so incredibly transformative to any organization. I loved how the last two days, what you guys have done is a great job of articulating Coupa's value in procurement, invoicing, payments, expense, through the voices of your customers and I think there's no better brand value that you can get. >> Sure, absolutely. >> Tell us a little bit about your role as the CMO of Coupa and marketing in a fast-growing company with a product that people might go, "I haven't heard of that, what is that again?" >> Yeah, it's a good question. I think if I look at it, my role is at Coupa, especially, for Coupa, what's interesting about it, as you said, is that every company makes money, every company spends money. So, invariably, Coupa can be used across a set of different companies. One from the Golden State Warriors to Procter & Gamble to the Lukemia & Lymphoma Society. Across the board. And then, from our perspective, holistically, we're looking at business, but managed from different aspects of spend. You said procurement was in expenses. So, my role is to build a marketing engine to get the flywheel effect of first you drive awareness. All marketing starts with awareness and you said people haven't heard of it. And so, to first to drive awareness in a very thoughtful way to the right contextual community we want to go after. And, two, drive acquisition, we'll drive close synergies between sales and marketing to ultimately drive pipeline and win rates and ultimately deals. And then, very importantly in today's world, is to drive the advocacy and get your most passionate customers to evangelize about the brand, so that you create the flywheel effect of awareness, acquisition, and advocacy. And, that's really what my role today is. >> And, I love how I read an article where you call that the stairway to marketing heaven. So, I thought, I wonder if you're a guitar guy, but you're right. It's how to drive awareness, but in a meaningful, thoughtful way. Especially today, with all all the technology, we wake up with it, right? Our phone is our alarm clock. We are bombarded by ads. If we're on Instagram, following our favorite celebrities or whatnot and it's scary when they have the right context, but it has to be thoughtful. We need to know our audience. So, you describe this stairway to marketing heaven, as you just mentioned, it's awareness, it's acquisition, which is key. But, I feel like a lot of companies don't forget the advocacy part, but they don't invest enough in it because that's the best salesperson for your technology, is the people that are using it successfully, right? >> Totally. Yeah, so, in fact, there was a study about a couple of years which looked at how balanced the boat is in terms of spending in presale versus post-sale. And, it's interesting that 87% of B2B marketing spend was presale. In other words, only 13% of people were investing in retention marketing, adoption mastery, customer marketing, and this is what advocacy marketing. And, in today's world, that doesn't work because you got to balance the boat because, to your point, you're getting in a peer-bond world where your existing customers are your best sellers. And, prospects who have all the buying power today are looking to your existing customers to guide them in their purchasing decisions. So, as an organization, if you balance the boat, then you're going to get the flywheel effect going for you in terms of driving the right advocacy across all channels. Just not your own channel if you earn channels to ultimately drive that acquisition going. >> Do you think that's actually more valuable? 'Cause it's one thing to have on your .com site, your social media sites, all these great things about your technologies, etc., coming from customers or from product experts, from influencers. Talk about the value. As technology advances so much and we are influenced by so many other channels, the value of the earned channel and that peer-to-peer relationship. >> Yeah, I think, as I say, that every mom says her baby is good-looking. But, in software, not every baby is really good-looking. Which means, if you take that analogy and extend it, if you're coming to your own channel, invariably, you're going to see some great customer videos about your product, you're going to see some great endorsements and testimonials, you're going to see some great quotes about your product. The reality, there's no bad news about your product on your own website, on your own channel. But, the reality is there are some, some people who might have different opinions. If you go to Glassdoor, no company gets a five on Glassdoor. And, if you take the same thing and extend it to earned channels for advocacy, folks like G2 Crowd, TrustRadius, and B2B, for example, are becoming more relevant today than before because two things. One is 85% of our customers' journey is self-directed. >> Lisa: That much? >> That much and Forrester has anywhere from 60 to 80, but reality is whether you're buying a car or you're buying Coupa. Today, a customer is discovering more journeys. And, in that process, they are looking to more of these earned channels as validation of which ones to go after than just your own channels. So, that's why we got to balance the boat and distribute our advocacy spend dollars across both your own channels and your earned channels. And, that's really important for you and the flywheel will pay off for you over time from that perspective. >> It will and that seems like a lot of the things that Suzy Irwin was talking about to the audience earlier. That's common sense. Why is it that you see these marketing budgets that are so heavily weighted towards just getting awareness, getting customers acquired, and then not thinking about retention marketing account based marketing. >> I'll tell you why. I think any smart CMO will conceptually agree with you. Nobody's going to say, of course, this is not important for me to get advocacy. The challenge comes in in terms of how that marketing department is measured. What gets measured gets funding at the end of the day. >> Lisa: That's a good point. >> And, reality is a lot of these B2B companies are still measuring marketing based on, what's the pipeline you're driving and what's at the top of the funnel metrics that you're driving? In reality, that's a little bit of a skewed thing because then if that's what you're being measured at the board level, at the executive level, then guess what? All your funding is going to go towards that. But, really, the true measurement of marketing, one, is about, yes, you have to get pipeline. You have to influence win rates at the bottom of the funnel and that's where product marketing comes in. But, as importantly, you have to look at the number of brand advocates you create and lifetime value of a customer. >> Yes, CLV, yes. >> And, that's really, really, customer lifetime value is so important because in a SaaS business, ultimately, the Mufasa metric, I'm a Lion King fan. The Mufasa metric is really lifetime value because if a customer stays longer with you, pays you more, and is shouting from the rooftop, then, invariably, that SaaS business is doing well. And, that's why you have to balance the boat in terms of post-advocacies, post-acquisition spend into advocacy, as much as you've done in pre-acquisition. >> When you came into Coupa a couple of years ago, have you been able to shift those budgets because you're able to demonstrate the value that that advocacy piece generates with the flywheel? >> Absolutely and I have a very progressive-thinking CEO who's partners with me on this too. So, we've been absolutely able to do that. In fact, what we're trying to do at the end of the day and most software companies, the real goal should be creating a tribe. In technology, you have to create a tribe to be a titan. And, it's just not about the capability, it's about the community. And, that's really what we're trying to do at Coupa is to create the tribal community feeling. So, if the community is bigger than the brand, it is about the community itself and learning, sharing, and growing with each other and being successful. And, we're just fostering that. So, from that perspective, if you look at this conference and the investment we're making here, some of the programs we're doing in terms of advocacy, what we call spend sellers, etc., is all about that community tribal feeling and go establish that. To use some inspiration from our consumer brands, if you really think about it, people don't buy what they want. People buy what they want to be. So, let me give you what I mean by that. What I want could be a bike. It could be any motorbike, but what I want to be could be part of a very special community and that's why Harley Davidson is successful. What I want could be any stationary bike today, but what I want to be is part of some cool community like Peloton. That's why Peloton is successful. So, similarly for us, what I want could be some spend management software, but what I want to be is part of this community, this cool club, and that's the feeling we're trying to create in the post-acquisition cycle. >> I love that you said that because you talked about that this morning and I loved how you had the word community on the slide and then broke that out into communication unity. And, one of the senses that I got yesterday when-- >> Chandar: Rob was talking about it. >> Yeah, when Rob kicked off everything is this is a very collaborative community. We think about that in terms in terms even like a developer community or something like that. But, Coupa is now managing $1.2 trillion of spend through the platform that every other business that's using Coupa gets to benefit from. It's customer-centric, it's supplier-centric, but it's about applying the right technologies, AI, machine learning, to all this data, so everybody benefits. >> That's right and one of the interesting aspects of community building is one aspect of community building is that Marc Benioff had a great, evangelistic marketing was a way of community building. He would come in and really evangelize and this is where we're going and you all need to come with us. When I was at Marketo, it was interesting. Community building was through more educational marketing and doing it through this, I'm going to educate you through though leadership. Another good way of community building is through product intelligence, which is community intelligence. So, collectively, the sum of all parts are smarter than the parts themselves. And, Rob has a great line, which says, "None of us is as smart as all of us." And, the fundamental community intelligence offering is based on this first principle. So, example, if I'm the community of Coupa customers, the next customer is smarter than the previous customer because the collective intelligence grew, which means I can then go benchmark it myself. I gave an example this morning of USO, the company that provides services to the United States troops. And, when Rick Quaintance at USO benchmarked himself using community intelligence, versus the rest of the community, he realizes that his invoice cycle times are seven times lower. So, that kind of intelligence is extremely beneficial and invaluable to companies. So, that's the value of the community, is providing the collective intelligence. Waze is a great consumer example. Those of us who use Waze for traffic know that it's all community driven and each one of us is smarter because we're collectively using it. It's the same concept in applying that to B2B software. >> So, as we see, you mentioned the over 80% of the buying decision is self-directed whether we're buying a car or Coupa software. Did Coupa foresee that in the last decade to see we're going to have to go to a more community-driven collaboration because the consumer of any thing, any product or service, is going to be so empowered 'cause that's a part of the Coupa foundation. >> It is. >> Lisa: Which, we don't see a lot in companies that are 10 plus years old. >> Yeah, and credit to Rob for his vision for this. It's because I think early part of the company, he wrote into the contracts that the company can benefit. Collectively, every company can benefit by being part of this community. And, the fact is data's aggregated, abstracted, there's no information that is sensitive, etc. But, the fact is we all can collectively benefit through it. That was a great vision of Rob and early people and that's benefited us because the benefit is really over scale and time. Now, your $1.2 trillion, it is really statistically significant in each different industry to get that intelligence. And, that is one of the other reasons we launched our business spend index. It's called spendindex.com. Where we can use the billions of dollars spent in the community to provide a leading indicator of economic growth based on current business spend sentiment. You think of ADP as this payroll, it's called ADP payroll thing that comes out and the gross domestic product report comes out. Those tend to be rear-view mirror lagging indicators. But, as we're using community-based intelligence to provide a windshield, a leading indicator of where the economy is going. So, there's so many different use cases. Benefiting based on spend you're doing as well as where the economy is going and all this is based on the intelligence. >> It's so powerful because, to your point, you're not looking behind. >> Chandar: It's the windshield. >> Exactly, able to be looking forward. So, with all the announcements and the great things that have come out with the AWS expansion, what you guys are doing with Coupa Pay. I was shocked to learn the percentages of businesses that are still writing paper checks. Or, the fact that a lot of companies have 10 plus banks that they're working with. There's still so much manual processes. You must just be, the future is so bright, you got to wear shades with Coupa. But, what excites you about what you guys have announced the last coupe of days and the feedback that you're hearing from your tribe? >> I think there's two kinds of things. One is continue to set the innovation agenda for the industry. And, really, you have to look at every customer on their unique journey of maturity and maturation, so we have a very thoughtful, what we call, maturity index, The business spend management index. Whereas, you are seeing some of these customers, for example, you mentioned, may be in the first stage of this maturity, where, for them, it's just getting automation and going from paper to paperless could be the first step. But, some other customers might say, "I've gotten there, "but I want to get the next level of sophistication "to orchestrate these business spend processes." So, what's exciting for us in the feedback is we're creating product capability across this maturation journey for our customers to make them successful at each of those places. And, Coupa Pay is one example of that. Whereas, some of the other pieces we talked about, we announced about some of the community offerings that we did also is on that. So, that's one exciting piece. The other exciting piece that customers tell us at this conference is, "Foster platforms for us "to engage with each other, learn from each other, "share from each other, and grow with each other." So, even stuff that Rob talked about, which is sourced together. This concept of customers coming together to drive a sourcing process and, again, the collective intelligence in the community, that, we're getting very, very positive feedback from that perspective. And, ultimately, Rob has a really good saying that, "It is not about customer satisfaction. "It is about customer success." That's a delineation there. A customer could be very satisfied with you, but they may not be necessarily successful. And, we say, it's not about satisfaction. It's about success. And, by creating this innovation cycle and then having a post-implementation process that's getting true value, that's truly how we drive customer success. >> And, something that I've heard over and over as I've talked to a number of your customers yesterday and today is how much they're feeling Coupa is listening. Their feedback is being incorporated. They're actually influencing the development of the technology and that was loud and clear the last two days. >> Yeah, I think there is, Rob talked about the number of features that are being influenced by the community and we have these-- >> 300 plus in the last 12 months. >> Yes, 300 plus in the last 12 months. And, there's this concept of two ears, one mouth. And, listen, learn, and innovate and that's the philosophy here. But, it's a right mix of listening to customers, learning from them, and getting the right input from them for driving innovation, as well as having strategic vision on where this market is going and having the right mix of those to provide the capability to customers. >> Wow, you're on a rocket ship. Chandar, it was great to have you on theCUBE. You'll have to come back. >> Yes, Lisa, absolutely, I'll come back and it was a pleasure being here. Awesome. >> Awesome, thank you so much. For Chandar, I'm Lisa Martin and you're watching theCUBE from Coupa Inspire '19. Thanks for watching. (techno music)

>> from the Cosmopolitan Hotel in Las Vegas, Nevada. It's the Cube covering Cooper inspired 2019. >> Brought to You by Cooper. >> Welcome to the Cube from Cooper inspired 99 Lisa Martin in The Cosmopolitan of Las Vegas. And guess who I have with me from the main stage CEO. Rob Bernstein. Welcome to the Cube. >> You so much. Thank you for having me >> exciting start today. One of Inspire really enjoyed the general session this morning. I learned three things more than three, but there's three that really stick out. One. You like pizza >> I do >> to you like kittens and kittens. And three, since 2016 there has been a five X increase and the spend going through the coop a platform with rocket ship. >> That's right. Huge momentum were well over 1.2 trillion dollars and spend that's gone through the platform. It's accelerating, and our customers are getting a lot of value and visualizing that spending, routing it to prefer contract saving money doing in smart, compliant ways. It's a really exciting time for us. >> It is, and this is across every industry manufacturing, healthcare, retail, et cetera. Every industry has the opportunity to leverage this wealth of data absolute. Cooper has to be able to get that visibility and control of all their spent. That's really revolutionary for any business. >> Well, we're really excited about it. Our community of customers is very excited about it, where building something very special here. I'll tell you one of the most exciting things. When you see that data being used in a way that drives intelligence for each individual customers, you know, we're helping them understand Where is their potential fraud with their expenses, where their suppliers maybe sending them duplicate invoices by accident? But Ari, I picks that up. So we are taking the space to a completely new level, and it's it could be more exciting. Honestly, >> well, the amount. You know, we go 1,000,000 shows a year, maybe a little bit less, But we always hear data is oil data is gold. It is. If you have access to it, you can extract insights from it really quickly and be able to act on it faster than your competition. >> Absolutely. You have to be able to normalize the data first informal, so you need a I capabilities. To do that, you have to access a massive data store you have to anonymous. The data obviously needs to be very, very secure, and then you have to draw insights out of that data. And one of things I share this morning is that we've given our customers just in 2019 more than 18,000 prescriptions of things they should consider, for example, putting some suppliers on hold if we think there's some risk with those suppliers. So absolutely, it's a I, but it's a I as the underlying element that brings out what we call community intelligence. And that's what's what's so powerful >> and the community as well, another really kind of under town that I felt and heard this morning from us. It's a community of collaboration, thes air, other businesses benefiting from what others have learned suppliers as well. So the customer centric city, the supplier central city, is there. >> Absolutely. It's all about this community concept, and we have well over 1000 companies that we've helped spend smarter, effectively and their community because these customers air sharing both in person and online, best practices, ideas for doing things differently, ideas for stretching this space beyond where it's ever been before, and that's really rewarding and every individual customers getting the benefit from that. Eso This community is developing very, very nicely, and it's serving the purposes of establishing this category, this new category of businessmen management, that world driving toward >> talk about that because that's something that's pretty innovative for Cooper. Business SPEND MANAGEMENT The role of procurement has changed. The role of finance has changed. They have the opportunity to become very strategic and really drive top line value. Talk to us about business, spend management What it means, how Coop is defining it >> absolutely well. First of all, any person I am in the world, and I've been asked this question for well over a decade. Now, do you think your company is doing a great job in managing its spending on older business needs that the company has, and you never get a resounding positive answer that, yes, we're doing a great job. And if you ask them, are you applying information technology to that problem in an effective way? The the answers or even worse? So we are attacking this full on with our customers in establishing the space, and that means everything from procurement expense reporting to invoice processing, two payments strategic sourcing, spend analytics supplier management contract lifecycle management. All of these application areas working together in concert help companies get their arms around spending and manage it in a much more smart way. And that's what this is. This is all about. >> One of the biggest challenges is you think about poor I t. Because every every line of business, whether your marketing, finance or engineering anything. Oh, engineering. I want to use lock. Start using flack. Marketing wants to use salesforce market Whatever these tools are in, suddenly this proliferation of shadowing T that's right and challenging to manage. But you can imagine how many supplier contracts are being duplicated triplicate, ID and even within the same organization, not getting the ideal price. So one of the great things big announcement today is the expansion of the relationship with Amazon in the AWS marketplace and wow, c I ose I t folks are gonna be able to do >> a lot >> through the Cupid platform. Tell us >> girls, that's right. Well, first of all, it's powered by an open by technology that we've developed, which allows you to have a very seamless experience. It's a purchasing experience that feels just like you're out on the Web, looking for any kind of item that you'd like to buy. But now you'll be able to subscribe to Service Is Cloud based. Service is through the Amazon AWS marketplace, and these Air service is that obviously would be approved by your CEO be approved by the folks involved in checking that it's secure, approved by legal and also approved by procurement So you can procure these cloud based service is very, very seamlessly right out of Cooper into AWS marketplace and back. And we think it's going to allow for obviously more volume of controlled spend, but also visibility into that spends. So it's properly matters >> that visibility is. You know, it's a word that we use in so many different applications. We don't want better visibility in our lives. In general, that is not easy to achieve. You talked about kind of these four core categories. You actually mentioned Maur that Cooper delivers its procurement, its invoices, expenses that can imagine travel management contingent workers getting an organization, whether it's a big organization like a staples or a smaller organization, that visibility is massively game changing. >> Yes, I think so. And I think one of the things that allows us to view that is we've really empowered the central hub organizations. Many the ones you described to roll out platforms to the end users all over the country, all over the world, wherever these people have employees to take control over spend. But have that Spence still routed to preferred, contractually righteous kind of spend categories that give them the results that they want. So this is a platform that is getting wide, wide adoption. And I'll tell you one of our application areas. We've seen more than a three x acceleration in the number of users over the last one year simply because of the adoption is so broadly accepted. And that has to do with our design and technology. Make it very, very usable. Our design concept of the best, you wise. No, you are right. So that's really how we're getting to where we're getting with a customer committee >> Adoptions challenging, you know. And there's if you look at the number of applications that an organization has a gonna work our list of sites, there's a lot and they're only effective if they're being utilized effectively by all of the folks that need to be doing that talk a little bit more. I love how you in your general session this morning shared with the audience. What c o u P a. Each acronym means. But and I saw that on the website best. Do I know you? I know what are some of the things that you think Cooper is doing really well that are really facilitating that adoption. That's again, that's hard to achieve. >> Well, it's in each of the letters in Cooper. So first, a comprehensive approach. That's what the C stands for. So cover every area of spend in one platform. We've never seen that before in the history of enterprise software, about a lot of siloed solutions all over the place, people trying to integrate them. We've put this all on one comprehensive platform. Secondly, doing it openly. That's what the old stands for. So being able to integrate to any ear piece system integrates a whole host of systems you mentioned slack earlier. We integrate into slack you could approve or reject spent purchased directly and slack. You have to get out to Cooper to do it, but you're doing it. The date is captured in Cooper. You is the user centrist city, so putting all the weight on the application itself and less of the weight on the employees themselves. Right now, we support guided buying with support all these capabilities, but our focus is on. You don't need any guidance in the future. Should require in the gun she should be. It should be so intuitive. The P stands for prescriptive, and this is using this community. Data we were discussing earlier to give real prescriptive advice. Teach customer, but how they should be spending or best practices, expenditures or benchmarks of how they could approve in the A stands for accelerated. It's the time of deployment. We're getting our customers live in a matter of months. They're accelerating their business process internally. I shared a stat that our customers in the last 12 months have improved the speed of their approvals by 30%. That's an aggregate. That's millions of millions, hundreds of billions of dollars in spend buying. So these five there is really differentiate us and they're really the vision areas that we focus on is a company with our with our community of customers. >> I was looking at some of the numbers from Cooper. You guys have consistently managed to grow revenues over 40% your rear in your fiscal year. 20 Q one earnings, which was just what last month or so. So revenue up 44% year over. You're crushing Wall Street's estimates by more than a 10 point gap. Lot of moment in, As you mentioned, let's talk about customers because at the end of the day, that's what you're all working towards. I know some of your proudest moments are when you get to talk with customers whose businesses have been transformed and you're giving them that the ah ha moments all the time. I love this morning how there >> was a lot >> of the voice of the customer covered there from so many different industries. The impact that you guys are making it Rolls Royce, for example, and MasterCard massive. Tell me some of your favorite stories that really articulate the breadth and depth of the value that delivers. I >> love it when the story begins in a situation where the CEO or CFO of the company don't necessarily get it, but somebody within our community steps up and shows them the business case of what we could achieve together. And then we, as a team is a collective unit delivered on achieving. Looking at was on themselves. I mean, they're processing more than $2,000,000,000 a month >> through our platform. I >> mentioned Procter Gamble. It process more than $50,000,000,000. Star Platform. Now >> these air, >> not initials. These were early adopter customers. They didn't have to go in our direction. There was some individual in that company that saw the spark of opportunity seized it, got it approved and worked with us hand in hand to drive it. And that's the stories that I love the most. And I shared so many of them this morning, but there are literally hundreds of them. All over the world in this community were cultivated. >> There are, and it's that's I think there's no bread or brand value that you can get Van it being articulated from the voice of a successful customer who it's not just normal, agile. We're saving money. It's no, we're driving shareholder value. There are significant business imperatives that are being driven because procurement is changing. We got to react to pricing pressures and forces like consumer ization. You know, we think of way have these expectations as consumers private lives, of getting anything that we want within a day when it shows up, you forgot what you ordered. It was that fast. That's right, what you guys are doing to enable the business buyers to have that same capability in their business lives. But to get that visibility, that 360 is really interesting. >> And the key also is to handle all the complexity on the back end for them. I could tell you so many companies I know that a really proud of crossing their paper based invoices very, very quickly, but they may not even know whether or not they got the goods of service is for which they're paying the invoice. So we do all of that heavy lifting on the back end on the platform itself, alleviating then users from that complexity and allowing them to have the experience that's similar to the one that that you just described >> can imagine how much money is being wasted on paper. They probably have absolutely no idea, absolutely no idea where you guys launched an Index. The Cooper Business Spend Index Just, I think, a month or two ago this is behavioral based data that you're bleeding from your community. Talk to us about the coupe of business spent index and some of the insights that you're already uncovering about the economy. >> Absolutely so. One of the things about this business spending nexus. It's something I've been thinking about frankly for over a decade. Can we collect enough data that's statistically significant enough actually be a leading indicator to future economic sentiment. You think about the data. We're looking at an aggregate. We know the average spend companies have per employee. We know how long approval cycles are, and we know the changes in those approval cycles. We know what percentage of spend is actually being rejected. Verse accepted at a moments notice aggregated those air in combination are leading in the Kidder's to the sentiment that companies have about the future of the economy. So we backwards tested this index that takes an account, these three elements that just described back to 2016 and it's proven to show pretty strong correlation with the way the economy actually played out for many of those quarters that many of those quarters. So last quarter we released our first verse, our first data set of the business spending. Next. And it showed that future economic economic sentiment for the next 3 to 4 months is actually very positive now, in some industries, more than others. But now, with three months later and clearly, the last three months have been pretty strong. So we're gonna be soon releasing our next quarterly Businessmen index. And we're gonna be doing this every quarter. Try to provide the business community with insights about where things are going. That's what everyone of business wants to know, where things are going, not where things have been. And we think we're in a unique position to share that and also, you know, sort of unfairly build awareness for brand out there so that people understand >> what we're all about. >> But that's that's critical. I'm gonna be talking to China tomorrow. You think of awareness Acquisition? Yes, Yes. Advocacy. Yes. Check, Check. Check. Old three. Those are critical last question robbery. As we look at the impact that procurement and getting this visibility of all of the distances spend can have on the business. Where is it as it relates to enabling businesses to digitally transformed >> to be competitive? Well, look, underlying all of this is the digital transformation that's happening for every company in every industry, without a doubt. But the use cases we support us so quantifiable. That's so clear not only in terms of cost savings that only in terms of compliance only in terms of visibility and getting your arms around spent actually drive revenue as well. If you do spend management effectively, you can change the way consumers experience your brand. And I shared a number of those stories. MGM resorts to Lulu Lemon to the Leukemia and Lymphoma Society and others. If you can get your arms around the spent and get people in the company, the goods and service is they need in record time. They're better position to express the company's vision to help them push towards an incredible iconic customer experiences. And we're just so proud to be ableto power that for this fast growing community of customers around the world, >> such an exciting time. Rob, thank you for having to queue, but inspired 19. It's been great. It's for looking forward to talking with lots more of your of your folks as well as amazing innovators and thinkers like Susie Orman and Deepak Chopra. Wow. Awesome stuff. Thank you. Well, thanks for having us. Thank you. All right. For Rob Bernstein. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the Cube from Cooper Inspired 19. Thanks for watching.

so two points max first off ideas aren't worth a damn ever he's got ideas all right I could give a holy hoot about about ideas I mean I I I got people throw ideas at me all the friggin time you know I don't give a shit I just truly told give a shit right I want actions show me how I'm gonna turn something into an action how am I gonna make something better right and I I want to know ahead of time what that something is am I trying to improve customer attention trying to improve recovery time for an athlete who's got back-to-back games right III I know what I'm trying to do and I want to focus on that where ideas become great and you said it really well max is ideas are something I want to test so but I know what I want to test these of the event what outcome I'm trying to drive so it isn't just it is an ideation for the I eat for the sake of ideation its ideation around the idea that I need to drive an outcome I need to have athletes that are better prepare for the next game who can recover faster who are stronger and can you know it can play through a longer point of the season here we are in March Madness and we know that by the way that the teams that tend to rise to the top are the teams that have gone through a more rigorous schedule played tougher teams right they're better prepared for this and it's really hard for a mid-major team to get better prepared because they're playing a bunch of lollipop teams in their own conference so it's it's ideas really don't excite me ideation does around an environment that allows me to test ideas quickly fail fast in order to find those you know variables or metrics those data sources it just might be better predictors of performance yeah I like the idea of acting quickly failing quickly and learning quickly right you have this loop and what happens is and then I think every strand coach in the world is probably guilty of this is we get an idea and we just apply it you go home you know I think eccentric trainings this great idea and we're going to do an eccentric training block and I just apply it to my athletes and you don't know what the hell happened because you don't have any contextual metrics that you base your test on to actually learn from so you at the day go I think it worked you know they jump high but you're not comparing that to anything right they jump they've been the weight room for three months my god I hope they jump higher I hope they're stronger like I can sit in the weight room probably get stronger for three months and my thought is but let's have context and it's um I call them anchor data points they were always reflecting back on so for example if I have a key performance metric where I want to jump high I'll always track jumping high but then I can apply different interventions eccentric training power training strength training and I can see the stress response of these KPIs so now I've set an environment that we have our charter still there my charter being I'm going to improve my athletic development and that's my goal I'm basing that charter on the KPI of jumping high so key performance indicator of jumping high now I can apply different blocks and interventions with that anchor point over and over again and the example I give is I don't come home and ask my girlfriend how she's doing once every month I ask her every day and that's my anchor point right and I might try different things I might try cookie and I might try making dinner I might do the dishes I might stop forgetting our dates I might actually buy groceries for once well maybe she gets happier then I'll continue to buy groceries maybe I'll remember it's her birthday March 30th I remember that that's my put it on there right and so but the idea is we have in life the way life works we have these modular points where we call anchor points where we were self-reflect and we reflect off of others and we understand our progress in our own life environment based on these anchor points and we progress and we apply different interventions I want this job maybe I'll try having this idea outside of here maybe I'll play in a softball league and we're always reflecting it's not making me happier is that making me feel fulfilled and I don't understand why we don't take what we do every day and like subconsciously and apply it into the sports science world but lava is because it happens unconsciously because that's how our body has learned to evolve we have anchor points I want to survive I want to have kids lots of kids strong kids and I and I die so my kids can have my food and that's what we want as a body right your bison care about anything else and so that's why you walk with a limp after you get hurt you don't want perfect again it's a waste of energy to walk perfect right you can still have kids with a limp I hate to break it to you right we're not running from animals anymore and so we have all these anchor points in life let's apply that same model now and like you said it's like design thinking and actually having that architecture to outline it whether it's in that hypothesis canvas to force us to now consciously do it because we're not just interacting with ourselves now we're interacting with other systems other nodes of information to now have to work together in use in to achieve our company's charter interesting max there's a lot of a lot of key points in there the one that strikes me is measurement John Smail at Procter & Gamble I was there you still I say you are what you measure and you measure what you reward that was his way of saying as an organization that the compensation systems are critical and the story just walked through about what Kelsey right and what you guys are doing and how you increase your your happiness level right now here's the damnest your work I mean that is that is how you're rewarded right if you are rewarded by happiness and so you you learn to measure if you're smart right that you don't miss birthdays that you do dishes you you you help up around the house you do things and when you do those things the happiness meter goes up and when you don't do those things happiness meter goes down and you know because you're you're you're probably pulling not just once a day but as you walk by her throughout the day are on a weekend you're you're constantly knowing right if if you're liking your mom you know when mom's not happy you don't need to be a day to sign this and know mom's not happy and so then you you know you re engineer about okay what did I do wrong that causes unhappiness right and so life is a lot of there's a lot of life lessons that we can learn that we can apply to either our business our operations or sports whatever it might be that your your profession is in about the importance of capturing the right metrics and understanding how those metrics really drive you towards a desired outcome and the rewards you're gonna receive from those outcomes yeah and with those it's the right metrics right that's what not metrics the right metrics if I want to know if someone was happy I wouldn't go look at the weather I wouldn't you know check gas prices especially if I'm curious they're happy with me well maybe they might reflect if they're happy in general if they're happy with me right now I'm contextualizing I'm actually trying to look at I know a little bit more about what I should look at I don't know everything and so you might have metrics that you say you know I know science says this metric is good this metric is good maybe we want to explore of these couple of metrics over here because we think that either aid they're related to one of these metrics or they related to the main outcome itself and that gives you a way to then I have these key and core metrics that's not stacking the deck but it's no one you're gonna get insights out of it and then I have these exploratory metrics over here but you're gonna allow me then to dive and explore elsewhere and if you're a company those can be trade secrets they can be proprietary information if you're a trainer it can be ways to learn how different athletes adapt to make yourself better and again we're talking about a company and we're talking about trainer there's no difference when it comes to trade secrets right trainers keep their trade secrets and companies keep their trade secrets and as we talk about this it's really easy to see how these two environments where they're talking about company athletic development sports science personal training health and wellness are really universally governed by the same concepts because life itself is typically governed by these concepts and when we're playing those kind of home iterations to it you can really begin to quickly learn what's going on and whether or not those metrics that you we're good ARCA and whether or not you can learn new metrics and from that max you raise an interesting question or made a point here that's I might be very different in the sports world than it is in the business world and that is the ability to test and what I mean by that is you know the business world is full of concepts like a bee testing and see both custody and simulations and things like that when you're dealing with athletes individually I would imagine it's really hard to test athlete a with one technique and athlete B with another technique when both these athletes are trying to maximize their performance capabilities in order to maximize you know the money there can they can they can generate how do you deal with that so yes no one wants to get the shitty program yes that's correct yeah for the most part people don't and this I'll take people don't test like that and but here's my solution to us I think being a critic without solutions called being an asshole my solution to that is making it very agile and so we're not going to be able to you know test group a versus group B but what you can do if you're a coach and you have faith in because there are a lot of programs coaches use coaches probably use you know every offseason they might try a new program so there's no real difference in all honesty to try a new program on you know these seven athletes versus and then try a different one that you also trust on these seven athletes and part of that comes from the fact that we have science and evidence to show that both these programs are really good right but there's no one's actually broken down the minutiae of it and so yes you probably could do a and B testing because you have faith in both programs so it's not like either athletes getting the wrong program they're both getting programs that are going to probably elicit an outcome of performing better but who wants to perform the best the second asks the second aspect would be what kind of longitudinal data that you can collect very easily to understand typical progression of athletes for example if you coach and you coach for eight years you'll have you know eight different freshman classes theoretically and you'll begin to understand how a freshman typically progresses to a sophomore in what their key performance indicators typically trend ass and so you can now say okay last year we did this this year we do this I'm gonna see if my freshman class responds differently is this going to give us the perfect answer absolutely not no but without data you're just another person with an opinion that's not my quote I stole that quote but it's true because if we don't try and audit ourselves and try to understand the process of how is someone developing then we're just strictly relying on confirmation bias I mean my program was great you know Pat some guys in the back that jumped higher and we did awesome if we're truly into understanding what's best then we'll actually try and you know measure some of these progress some of this some of these KPIs over time in the example I give and it's unfortunate and fortunate I don't mean anything bad by this either we're on a salary right and so what happens when you're on a salary is no matter really what happens assuming you're doing your job you're gonna keep your job but if you look at a start-up a startup has one option and that's to make money or go out of business right they don't really have the luxury of oh we're just gonna you know hang out and not saying coaches hang up or not we're just gonna you know keep this path we're going on as a coach you know how do I apply a similar model well I start up the bank my startup is you can go from worth zero dollars to worth a hundred you know million two billion dollars in one year at the coach we don't have that same environment because we're not producing something tangible which doesn't always it doesn't have the same capitalistic Drive right the invisible hand pushing us the same way the free market does with you know devices and so we don't always follow the same path that these startups have done yet that same path and same model might provide better insights so max you've hit something I found very interesting confirmation bias if if you don't take the time before you execute a test understand the variables that you're gonna test what happens is if you after the test is over you go back and try to triage what the drivers were that impact and confirmation bias and revisionist history and all these other things that make humans really poor decision-makers get in the way and so but before as a coach I would imagine before as a coach what you'd want to do is is set up ahead of time we're gonna test the following things to see if they have impact by thoroughly like the hypothesis development canvas right they'll really understand against what you're really going to test and then when you've done that test you you will you would have much more confidence in the results of that test versus trying to say wow Jimmy Jimmy jumped two inches higher this year thank God what did he do let's figure out and revision it wasn't what he ate was it where he slept oh he played a lot of video games that must be it he is the video games made him jump higher right so it's I think a lot of sports in particular even more than the business for a lot of sports is based on on heuristics and gut feel it's run by a priesthood of former athletes who are were great because of their own skills and capabilities and it maybe had very little do with her development and I don't want to pick on Michael Jordan but no Michael Jordan was notoriously a poor coach and a poor judge of talent he made some of the most industries when the worst draft choices industry has ever seen and that's because he mistakenly thought that everybody was like him that he revision history about well what made me great were the following thing so I'm gonna look for people like that instead of reversing the course and saying okay let's figure out ahead of time what makes what will make you a better plant player and then trying these tests across a number of different players to figure out okay which of these things actually had impact so sports I think has gotten much better Moneyball sort of opened that people's eyes to it now we're seeing now more and more team who are realizing that that data science is as a discipline it's not something you apply after the fact but in order to really uncover what's the real drivers of performance you have to sit down before you do the test to really understand what it is you're testing because then you can learn from the tests and and let's be honest right learning is a process of exploring and failing and if you don't try and fail enough times if you don't have enough might moments you'll never have any break to a moment and I think what people don't understand is they hear the word fail and assumed oh we did a six-month program and failed nope failure can occur in one day and that's okay right you can use for example I'm going to use this piece of technology as motivation for biofeedback to increase my athletes and tint and the amount of effort they put into the weight room that's right hypothesis you can test that in one day you print out that piece of technology the athletes don't respond well you'd have learned something now okay that technology didn't bring about the motivation I thought why was that you can do reflect and that revision because you had the infrastructure beforehand on maybe notes that you may have taken and scribbled down on your pad or observations from the coaches I am I but you know what the athletes weren't very invested because the technology took too long to set up right it wasn't the technology's fault it was the process of given technology available to act and utilize on so maybe you retest again with it set up beforehand or a piece of technology that's much easier to use and the intent increases so now you say okay it's not the technology's fault it's the application of how we're using the technology at the same time we hear a lot of things like I'm gonna take a little bit of pivot not too far though is in the baseball world you see technology being more used more and more as a tool and it's helping guide immediate actions on the field whether it's not it's a you know spin rates its arm velocities with accelerometers or some sort of measurement they decide to use but that's not necessarily collecting data that's using technology as a performance tool and I think there's a distinction between the two the two are not mutually exclusive you can still use it as a performance tool but that performance data if the infrastructure is not there to store a file and reflect and analyze it's only being used one-sided and so people think oh we're doing sports science we're doing data science because we're collecting data well that's not I can go count ants that's collecting data but that's not you know I don't unless I count ants every day and say oh my game populations decreasing right and kind of a here's a really easy way to think of it in my opinion you have cookies in the fridge right and every day I go and every week will say my mom makes cookies this doesn't happen I wish it did be very cool but I love your mom and we didn't eat cookies every week but in the fridge I go when I count how many cookies there were right and using data I'd say oh twelve cookies if there's any cookies at all I can eat right that's using technology and that moment but doing data Sciences well you know what she's gonna make you know twelve and a couple of days and I have two days left and there's six cookies I can eat three today and three tomorrow because now you're doing prescriptive analytics right because you are prescribing an action based on the information you collected it's based on historical data because you know that every seventh day the cookies are coming no I just take it as I'm using technology as a tool I might only eat one cookie and forever be leaving six cookies on the table right and so there's hid don't want to do that no we don't but we trick ourselves I think we see that not saying baseball does is but I'm saying we've see that in all domains where we use technology we say oh technology good we had someone use technology that's data science no that's not data science that's using technology to help Tripp augment training using data Sciences understand the information that happened during the training process looking at it contextually to them prescribed saying I'm going to do this exercise or this exercise based on the collection and maturation of the information so instead of cookies here I eat one cookie it's a historic Lee I know there's going to be twelve cookies every seven days I have two days left I can eat three cookies now I can hide two and tell my sister Amelia oh there's only one left very weird I don't know who ate data - well let max let me let me let me wrap up with a very interesting challenge that I think all all data scientists face wellmaybe all citizens of data science face and I say did as citizens of data science I mean people who understand how to use the results of data science not necessarily people who are creating the data science and here's here's the challenge that if you if you make your decisions just based on the numbers alone you're likely to end up with suboptimal results and the reason why that happens is because there's lots of outside variables that have huge influence especially when it comes to humans and even machines to a certain extent let me give you an example know baseball is is infatuated with cyber metrics and numbers right everybody is making decisions we're seeing this now in the current offseason you know who was signing contracts and who has given given money and they're using they're using the numbers to show you know how much is that person really worth and and organizations are getting really surgical and their ability to figure out that that person is not worth a you know a six year contract for you know 84 million dollars they're worth a two-year contract for 36 and that's the best way I'm gonna you know pay but minimize my risks and so then the numbers are really drive and allow that but it isn't just the big data that helps to make decisions and in fact I would argue the insights carried from the small data is equally important especially in sports and I think this is a challenge in other parts of the business is the numbers itself the data itself doesn't tell the full story and in particular think about how does an organization leverage the small data the observed data to really help make a better decision so right now in baseball for example in this offseason the teams became infatuated with using numbers to figure out who were they going to offer contracts to how much they were going to pay him for how long and we saw really the contracts in most cases really shrinking and value in size cuz people are using the numbers and comparing that to say always so and so it only got this you're only going to get this and numbers are great but they miss some of the smaller aspects that really differentiate good athletes from great athletes and those are things like fortitude part you know effort resilience these these kind of things that aren't you can't find that in the number so somebody's ability to a closer write who goes out there in the eighth-inning and and just has a shit performance gets beat up all over the place comes back in it still has to lead and and does that person have the guts the fortitude to go back out there after us bad eighth-inning and go do it again who can fight through when they're tired it's late in the game now you've been playing it's a you know 48 minute game you've been playing forty minutes already you've hardly had a break and you're down by two the balls in your hand a three-pointer is gonna win it what are you gonna do my numbers don't measure that it's theirs these these these other metrics out there like fortitude at heart and such that you actually can start to measure they don't show up a numbers where they come from the inside some subject matter experts to say yeah that person has fight and in fact there's one pro team that actually what they do in the minor leagues they actually put their players into situations that are almost no win because they want to see what they're gonna do do they give up or do they fight back and and you know what you again you can't batting average then tell you that if somebody's gonna get up and that you're gonna give up it's a ninth in and you think you've lost you know what I don't want that person out there and so think about in sports how do you complement the data that you can see coming off of devices with the data that experience coach can say that that person's got something extra there they got the fight they have the fortitude they have the resilience when they're down they keep battling they don't give up and you know from experience from from playing and coaching I know from playing and coaching the guy is going to give up you know who they are I don't want them on the court right it made me the best player from a numbers perspective hell if that was the case Carmelo Anthony would be an all-star every time his numbers are always great the guide lacks heart but he doesn't know how to win so think about how as an organization a sporting organization you use the metrics to help give you a baseline but don't forget about the the soft metrics the servable things that you got to tell you that somebody has something special that is an awesome way to bring this together because subject matter experts those are people who have been in the trenches who see it firsthand date is here to augment you in your decisions it's not here to override you it's not here to take your place and so in coaches fear data it's the silliest thing ever because it's giving more ammo to a gunslinger that's all it does right it's not going to win the battle right it's just the bullets you got to still aim it in fire and so when we look at it in regards to performance and athletic development all these numbers they'll never be right ever they'll never be 100% perfect but neither will you and so what we're trying to do is help your decisions with more information that you can process into your brain that you might otherwise not be able to quantify so it's giving that paintbrush not just the color red but given all the colors to you and so now you can make whatever painting you want and you're not constrained by things you can't measure yourself I could add one point max to bill on that data won't make a shitty coach good but it will make a good coach great yeah yeah I couldn't agree more well dad thank you for being on here I really appreciate and for everyone who's listening this is going on prime March Madness time and so to pull away the dean of big data from March Madness who for people listening he made his bracket on the Google cloud using AI and so it only he so I was thanking him to come here and only he would be the one to I guess take I don't say take the fun out of it but try and grid the family bracket for used it all augmented decision-making he possibly can like it the data will make won't make somebody shitty good and I'm still not good Google Cloud couldn't help me I still at the bottom of the family pool it's great to have you in I guess every minute here is worth double being that's March Madness time thanks max for the opportunity it's a fun conversation alright thank you guys for listening really appreciate it and [Music] [Applause] [Music] you

produced from the cube studios this is strong by science in-depth conversations about science based training sports performance and all things health and wellness here's your host max smart [Music] [Applause] [Music] all right thank you guys tune in today I have the one and only Dean of big data the man the myth the legend bill Schwarz oh also my dad is the CTO of Hitachi van Tara and IOC in analytics he has a very interesting background because he is the well he's known as the Dean of big data but also the king of the court and all things basketball related when it comes to our household and unlike most people in the data world and I want to say most as an umbrella term but a some big bill has an illustrious sports career playing at Coe College the Harvard of the Midwest my alma mater as well but I think having that background of not just being computer science but where you have multiple disciplines involved when it comes to your jazz career you had basketball career you have obviously the career Iran now all that plays a huge role in being able to interpret and take multiple domains and put it into one so thank you for being here dad yeah thanks max that's a great introduction I rep reciate that no it's it's wonderful to have you and for our listeners who are not aware bill is referring him is Bill like my dad but I call my dad the whole time is gonna drive me crazy bill has a mind that thinks not like most so he he sees things he thinks about it not just in terms of the single I guess trajectory that could be taken but the multiple domains that can go so both vertically and horizontally and when we talk about data data is something so commonly brought up in sports so commonly drop in performance and athletic development big data is probably one of the biggest guess catchphrases or hot words or sayings that people have nowadays but doesn't always have a lot of meaning to it because a lot of times we get the word big data and then we don't have action out of big data and bill specialty is not just big data but it's giving action out of big data with that going forward I think a lot of this talk to be talking about how to utilize Big Data how do you guys data in general how to organize it how to put yourself in a situation to get actionable insights and so just to start it off Becky talked a little bit on your background some of the things you've done and how you develop the insights that you have thanks max I have kind of a very nos a deep background but I've been doing data analytics a long time and I was very fortunate one of those you know Forrest Gump moments in life where in the late 1980s I was involved in a project at Procter & Gamble I ran the project where we brought in Walmart's point of sales data for the first time into a what we would now call a data warehouse and for many of this became the launching point of the data warehouse bi marketplace and we can trace the effect the origins of many of the BI players to that project at Procter & Gamble in 87 and 88 and I spent a big chunk of my life just a big believer in business intelligence and data warehousing and trying to amass data together and trying to use that data to report on what's going on and writing insights and I did that for 20 25 years of my life until as you probably remember max I was recruited out Business Objects where I was the vice president of analytic applications I was recruited out of there by Yahoo and Yahoo had a very interesting problem which is they needed to build analytics for their advertisers to help those advertisers to optimize or spend across the Yahoo ad network and what I learned there in fact what I unlearned there was that everything that I had learned about bi and data warehouse and how you constructed data warehouses how you were so schema centric how everything was evolved around tabular data at Yahoo there was an entirely different approach the of my first introduction to Hadoop and the concept of a data Lake that was my first real introduction into data science and how to do predictive analytics and prescriptive analytics and in fact it was it was such a huge change for me that I was I was asked to come back to the TD WI data world Institute right was teaching for many years and I was asked to do a keynote after being at Yahoo for a year or so to share sort of what were the observations what did I learn and I remember I stood up there in front of about 600 people and I started my presentation by saying everything I've taught you the past 20 years is wrong and it was well I didn't get invited back for 10 years so that probably tells you something but it was really about unlearning a lot about what I had learned before and probably max one of the things that was most one of the aha moments for me was bi was very focused on understanding the questions that people were trying to ask an answer davus science is about us to understand the decisions they're trying to take action on questions by their very nature our informative but decisions are actionable and so what we did at Yahoo in order to really drive the help our advertisers optimize your spend across the Yahoo ad network is we focus on identifying the decisions the media planners and buyers and the campaign managers had to make around running a campaign know what what how much money to allocate to what sides how much how many conversions do I want how many impressions do I want so all the decisions we built predictive analytics around so that we can deliver prescriptive actions to these two classes of stakeholders the media planners and buyers and the campaign managers who had no aspirations about being analysts they're trying to be the best digital marketing executives or you know or people they could possibly be they didn't want to be analysts so and that sort of leads me to where I am today and my my teaching my books my blogs everything I do is very much around how do we take data and analytics and help organizations become more effective so everything I've done since then the books I've written the teaching I do with University of San Francisco and next week at the National University of Ireland and Galway and all the clients I work with is really how do we take data and analytics and help organizations become more effective at driving the decisions that optimize their business and their operational models it's really about decisions and how do we leverage data and analytics to drive those decisions so what would how would you define the difference between a question that someone's trying to answer versus a decision but they're trying to be better informed on so here's what I'd put it I call it the Sam test I am and that is it strategic is it actionable is it material and so you can ask questions that are provocative but you might not fast questions that are strategic to the problems you're trying to solve you may not be able to ask questions that are actionable in a sense you know what to do and you don't necessarily ask questions that are material in the sense that the value of that question is greater than the cost of answering that question right and so if I think about the Sam test when I apply it to data science and decisions when I start mining the data so I know what decisions are most important I'm going through a process to identify to validate the value and prioritize those decisions right I understand what decisions are most important now when I start to dig through the data all this structured unstructured data across a number different data sources I'm looking for I'm trying to codify patterns and relationships buried in that data and I'm applying the Sam test is that against those insights is it strategic to the problem I'm trying to solve can I actually act on it and is it material in the sense that it's it's it's more valuable to act than it is to create the action around it so that's the to me that big difference is by their very nature decisions are actually trying to make a decision I'm going to take an action questions by their nature are informative interesting they could be very provocative you know questions have an important role but ultimately questions do not necessarily lead to actions so if I'm a a sport coach I'm writing a professional basketball team some of the decisions I'm trying to make are I'm deciding on what program best develops my players what metrics will help me decide who the best prospect is is that the right way of looking at it yeah so we did an exercise at at USF too to have the students go through an exercise - what question what decisions does Steve Kerr need to make over the next two games he's playing right and we go through an exercise of the identifying especially in game decisions exercise routes oh no how often are you gonna play somebody no how long are they gonna play what are the right combinations what are the kind of offensive plays that you're gonna try to run so there's a know a bunch of decisions that Steve Kerr is coach of the Warriors for example needs to make in the game to not only try to win the game but to also minimize wear and tear on his players and by the way that's a really good point to think about the decisions good decisions are always a conflict of other ideas right win the game while minimizing wear and tear on my players right there's there are there are all the important decisions in life have two three or four different variables that may not be exactly the same which is by this is where data science comes in the data science is going to look across those three or four very other metrics against what you're going to measure success and try to figure out what's the right balance of those given the situation I'm in so if going back to the decision about about playing time well think about all the data you might want to look at in order to optimize that so when's the next game how far are they in this in this in the season where do they currently sit ranking wise how many minutes per game has player X been playing looking over the past few years what's there you know what's their maximum point so there's there's a there's not a lot of decisions that people are trying to make and by the way the beauty of the decisions is the decisions really haven't changed in years right what's changed is not the decisions it's the answers and the answers have changed because we have this great bound of data available to us in game performance health data you know all DNA data all kinds of other data and then we have all these great advanced analytic techniques now neural networks and unstructured supervised machine learning on right all this great technology now that can help us to uncover those relationships and patterns that are buried in the data that we can use to help individualize those decisions one last point there the point there to me at the end when when people talk about Big Data they get fixated on the big part the volume part it's not the volume of big data that I'm going to monetize it's the granularity and what I mean by that is I now have the ability to build very detailed profiles going back to our basketball example I can build a very detailed performance profile on every one of my players so for every one of the players on the Warriors team I can build a very detailed profile it the details out you know what's their optimal playing time you know how much time should they spend before a break on the feet on the on the on the court right what are the right combinations of players in order to generate the most offense or the best defense I can build these very detailed individual profiles and then I can start mission together to find the right combination so when we talk about big it's not the volume it's interesting it's the granularity gotcha and what's interesting from my world is so when you're dealing with marketing and business a lot of that when you're developing whether it be a company that you're trying to find more out about your customers or your startup trying to learn about what product you should develop there's tons of unknowns and a lot of big data from my understanding it can help you better understand some patterns within customers how to market you know in your book you talk about oh we need to increase sales at Chipotle because we understand X Y & Z our current around us now in the sports science world we have our friend called science and science has helped us early identify certain metrics that are very important and correlated to different physiological outcomes so it almost gives us a shortcut because in the big data world especially when you're dealing with the data that you guys are dealing with and trying to understand customer decisions each customer is individual and you're trying to compile all together to find patterns no one's doing science on that right it's not like a lab work where someone is understanding muscle protein synthesis and the amount of nutrients you need to recover from it so in my position I have all these pillars that maybe exist already where I can begin my search there's still a bunch of unknowns with that kind of environment do you take a different approach or do you still go with the I guess large encompassing and collect everything you can and siphon after maybe I'm totally wrong I'll let you take it away no that's it's a it's a good question and what's interesting about that max is that the human body is governed by a series of laws we'll say in each me see ology and the things you've talked about physics they have laws humans as buyers you know shoppers travelers we have propensity x' we don't have laws right I have a propensity that I'm gonna try to fly United because I get easier upgrades but I might fly you know Southwest because of schedule or convenience right I have propensity x' I don't have laws so you have laws that work to your advantage what's interesting about laws that they start going into the world of IOT and this concept called digital twins they're governed by laws of physics I have a compressor or a chiller or an engine and it's got a bunch of components in it that have been engineered together and I can actually apply the laws I can actually run simulations against my digital twins to understand exactly when is something likely to break what's the remaining useful life in that product what's the severity of the the maintenance I need to do on that so the human body unlike the human psyche is governed by laws human behaviors are really hard right and we move the las vegas is built on the fact that human behaviors are so flawed but body mate but bat body physics like the physics that run these devices you can actually build models and one simulation to figure out exactly how you know what's the wear and tear and what's the extensibility of what you can operate in gotcha yeah so that's when from our world you start looking at subsystems and you say okay this is your muscular system this is your autonomic nervous system this is your central nervous system these are ways that we can begin to measure it and then we can wrote a blog on this that's a stress response model where you understand these systems and their inferences for the most part and then you apply a stress and you see how the body responds and even you determine okay well if I know the body I can only respond in a certain number of ways it's either compensatory it's gonna be you know returning to baseline and by the mal adaptation but there's only so many ways when you look at a cell at the individual level that that cell can actually respond and it's the aggregation of all these cellular responses that end up and manifest in a change in a subsystem and that subsystem can be measured inferential II through certain technology that we have but I also think at the same time we make a huge leap and that leap is the word inference right we're making an assumption and sometimes those assumptions are very dangerous and they lead to because that assumptions unknown and we're wrong on it then we kind of sway and missed a little bit on our whole projection so I like the idea of looking at patterns and look at the probabilistic nature of it and I'm actually kind of recently change my view a little bit from my room first I talked about this I was much more hardwired and laws but I think it's a law but maybe a law with some level of variation or standard deviation and it we have guardrails instead so that's kind of how I think about it personally is that something that you say that's on the right track for that or how would you approach it yeah actually there's a lot of similarities max so your description of the human body made up of subsystems when we talk to organizations about things like smart cities or smart malls or smart hospitals a smart city is comprised of a it's made up of a series of subsystems right I've got subsystems regarding water and wastewater traffic safety you know local development things like this look there's a bunch of subsystems that make a city work and each of those subsystems is comprised of a series of decisions or clusters of decisions with equal use cases around what you're trying to optimize so if I'm trying to improve traffic flow if one of my subsystems is practically flow there are a bunch of use cases there about where do I do maintenance where do I expand the roads you know where do I put HOV lanes right so and so you start taking apart the smart city into the subsystems and then know the subsystems are comprised of use cases that puts you into really good position now here's something we did recently with a client who is trying to think about building the theme park of the future and how do we make certain that we really have a holistic view of the use cases that I need to go after it's really easy to identify the use cases within your own four walls but digital transformation in particular happens outside the four walls of an organization and so what we what we're doing is a process where we're building journey maps for all their key stakeholders so you've got a journey map for a customer you have a journey map for operations you have a journey map for partners and such so you you build these journey maps and you start thinking about for example I'm a theme park and at some point in time my guest / customer is going to have a pity they want to go do something you want to go on vacation at that point in time that theme park is competing against not only all the other theme parks but it's competing against major league baseball who's got things it's competing against you know going to the beach in Sanibel Island just hanging around right there they're competing at that point and if they only start engaging the customer when the customers actually contacted them they must a huge part of the market they made you miss a huge chance to influence that person's agenda and so one of the things that think about I don't know how this applies to your space max but as we started thinking about smart entities we use design thinking and customer journey match there's a way to make certain that we're not fooling ourselves by only looking within the four walls of our organization that we're knocking those walls down making them very forest and we're looking at what happens before somebody engages it with us and even afterwards so again going back to the theme park example once they leave the theme park they're probably posting on social media what kind of fun they had or fun they didn't have they're probably making plans for next year they're talking to friends and other things so there's there's a bunch of stuff we're gonna call it afterglow that happens after event that you want to make certain that you're in part of influencing that so again I don't know how when you combined the data science of use cases and decisions with design thinking of journey Maps what that might mean to do that your business but for us in thinking about smart cities it's opened up all kinds of possibilities and most importantly for our customers it's opened up all kinds of new areas where they can create new sources of value so anyone listening to this need to understand that when the word client or customer is used it can be substituted for athlete and what I think is really important is that when we hear you talk about your the the amount of infrastructure you do for an idea when you approach a situation is something that sports science for in my opinion especially across multiple domains it's truly lacking what happens is we get a piece of technology and someone says go do science while you're taking the approach of let's actually think out what we're doing beforehand let's determine our key performance indicators let's understand maybe the journey that this piece of technology is going to take with the athlete or how the athletes going to interact with this piece of technology throughout their four years if you're in the private sector right that afterglow effect might be something that you refer to as a client retention and their ability to come back over and over and spread your own word for you if you're in the sector with student athletes maybe it's those athletes talking highly about your program to help with recruiting and understanding that developing athletes is going to help you know make that college more enticing to go to or that program or that organization but what really stood out was the fact that you have this infrastructure built beforehand and the example I give I spoke with a good number of organizations and teams about data utilization is that if if you're to all of a sudden be dropped in the middle of the woods and someone says go build a cabin now how was it a giant forest I could use as much wood as I want I could just keep chopping down trees until I had something that had with a shelter of some sort right even I could probably do that well if someone said you know what you have three trees to cut down to make a cabin you could become very efficient and you're going to think about each chop in each piece of wood and how it's going to be used and your interaction with that wood and conjunction with that woods interaction with yourself and so when we start looking at athlete development and we're looking at client retention or we're looking at general health and wellness it's not just oh this is a great idea right we want to make the world's greatest theme park and we want to make the world's greatest training facility but what infrastructure and steps you need to take and you said stakeholders so what individuals am i working with am I talking with the physical therapist am i talking with the athletic trainer am I talking with the skill coach how does the skill coach want the data presented to them maybe that's different than how the athletic trainer is going to have a day to present it to them maybe the sport coach doesn't want to see the data unless something a red flag comes up so now you have all these different entities just like how you're talking about developing this customer journey throughout the theme park and making sure that they have a you know an experience that's memorable and causes an afterglow and really gives that experience meaning how can we now take data and apply it in the same way so we get the most value like you said on the granular aspect of data and really turn that into something valuable max you said something really important and one of the things that let me share one of many horror stories that that that comes up in my daily life which is somebody walking up to me and saying hey I got a client here's their data you know go do some science on it like well well what the heck right so when we created this thing called the hypothesis development canvas our sales teams hate it or do the time our data science teams love it because we do all this pre work we just say we make sure we understand the problem we're going after the decision they're trying to make the KPI is it's what you're going to measure success in progress what are they the operational and financial business benefits what are the data sources we want to consider here's something by the way that's it's important that maybe I wish Boeing would have thought more about which is what are the costs of false positives and false negatives right do you really understand where your risks points are and the reason why false positive and false negatives are really important in data science because data size is making predictions and by virtue of making predictions we are never 100% certain that's right or not predictions hath me built on I'm good enough well when is good enough good enough and a lot of that determination as to when is good enough good enough is really around the cost of false positives and false negatives think about a professional athlete like the false the you know the ramifications of overtraining professional athlete like a Kevin Durant or Steph Curry and they're out for the playoffs as huge financial implications them personally and for the organization so you really need to make sure you understand exactly what's the cost of being wrong and so this hypothesis development canvas is we do a lot of this work before we ever put science to the data that yeah it's it's something that's lacking across not just sports science but many fields and what I mean by that is especially you referred to the hypothesis canvas it's a piece of paper that provides a common language right it's you can sit it out before and for listeners who aren't aware a hypothesis canvas is something bill has worked and developed with his team and it's about 13 different squares and boxes and you can manipulate it based on your own profession and what you're diving into but essentially it goes through the infrastructure that you need to have setup in order for this hypothesis or idea or decision to actually be worth a damn and what I mean by that is that so many times and I hate this but I'm gonna go in a little bit of a rant and I apologize that people think oh I get an idea and they think Thomas Edison all son just had an idea and he made a light bulb Thomas Edison's famous for saying you know I did you know make a light bulb I learned was a 9000 ways to not make a light bulb and what I mean by that is he set an environment that allowed for failure and allowed for learning but what happens often people think oh I have an idea they think the idea comes not just you know in a flash because it always doesn't it might come from some research but they also believe that it comes with legs and it comes with the infrastructure supported around it that's kind of the same way that I see a lot of the data aspect going in regards to our field is that we did an idea we immediately implement and we hope it works as opposed to set up a learning environment that allows you to go okay here's what I think might happen here's my hypothesis here's I'm going to apply it and now if I fail because I have the infrastructure pre mapped out I can look at my infrastructure and say you know what that support beam or that individual box itself was the weak link and we made a mistake here but we can go back and fix it

I literally retitled my PowerPoint presentation which was previously called smart packaging to find a way to get the word internet in and the way I do that was I wrote Internet of Things and I got my money and I founded a research center with Procter & Gamble's money and MIT just up the road here and basically took the PowerPoint presentation with me all over the world commits other people to get on board big people buying a lot of media and there's a lot of discussion in politics about whether or not you know billionaires buying media are problems and what that's gonna mean in terms of the message that's gonna be reported to people that's gonna always be an issue but I think even with that that's why it's even more empowering that the individuals are taking more control over their own narratives biggest sort of takeaway is to see and actually joy is to see companies from different walks of life working together you have robotics companies you have AI companies you have industrial companies all of them are coming up with solutions together and that's basically what we want to see is breaking the barriers and multiple companies working together to moving you [Music]

>> From Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE. Covering LiveWorx 18, brought to you by PTC. >> Welcome back to Boston, everybody. This is theCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage, and we are here, day one of the PTC LiveWorx conference, IOT, blockchain, AI, all coming together in a confluence of innovation. I'm Dave Vellante with my co-host, Stu Miniman. Wolfgang Ulaga is here. He's the AT&T Professor of Services Leadership and Co-Executive Director, the Center for Services Leadership at Arizona State University. Wolfgang, welcome to theCUBE, thank you so much for coming on. >> Thank you. >> So services leadership, what should we know? Where do we start this conversation around services leadership? >> The Center of Services Leadership is a center that has been created 30 years ago around a simple idea, and that is putting services front and center of everything a company does. So this is all about service science, service business, service operations, people and culture. When you touch service, you immediately see that you have to be 360 in your approach. You have to look at all the aspects. You have to look at structures and people. You have to look at operations with a service-centric mindset. >> I mean, it sounds so obvious. Anytime we experience, as consumers, great service, we maybe fall in love with a company, we're loyal, we tell everybody. But so often, services fall down. I mean, it seems obvious. Why is it just not implemented in so many organizations? >> One of the problems is that companies tend to look at services as an afterthought. Think about the word after-sales service, which in my mind is already very telling about how it's from a cultural perspective perceived. It's something that you do after the sale has been done. That's why oftentimes, there is the risk that it falls back, it slips from the priority list. You do it once, you have done all the other things. But in reality, businesses are there to serve customers. Service should be the center of what the company does, not at the periphery. >> Or even an embedded component of what the company, I mean, is Amazon a good example of a company that has embraced that? Or is Netflix maybe even a better example? I don't even know what the service department looks like at Netflix, it's just there. Is that how we should envision modern-day service? >> It excites me at the conference at LiveWorx. We see so many companies talking about technology and changes. And you really can sense and see how all of them are thinking about how can they actually grow the business from historic activities into new data-enabled activities. But the interesting challenge for many firms is that this is going to be also journey of learning how to serve its customers through data analytics. So data-enabled services is going to be a huge issue in the next coming years. >> Wolfgang, you're speaking here at the conference. I believe you also wrote a book about advanced services. For those that aren't familiar with the term, maybe walk us through a little bit about what that is. >> Earlier this morning, I presented the book "Service Strategy in Action", which is a very managerial book that we wrote over 10 years of experience of doing studies, working with companies on this journey from a product-centric company that wants to go into a service and solution-centric world and business. Today we see many of the companies picking up the pace, going into that direction, and I would say that with data analytics, this is going to be an even more important phenomenon for the next years to come. >> A lot of companies struggle with service as well because they don't see it as a scale component of their business. It's harder to scale services than it is to scale software, for example. In thinking about embedding services into your core business, how do you deal as an organization with the scale problem? Is it a false problem? How are organizations dealing with that? >> No, you're absolutely right. Many companies know and learn when they are small and they control operations. It's easy to actually have your eyes on service excellence. Once you scale up, you run into this issue of how do you maintain service quality. How do you make sure that each and every time to replicate into different regions, into different territories, into different operations, that you keep that quality up and running. One way to do it is to create a service culture among the people because one way to control that quality level is to push responsibility as low as possible down so that each and every frontline employee knows what he or she has to do, can take action if something goes wrong, and can maintain that service quality at the level we want. That's where sometimes you see challenges and issues popping up. >> What role do you see machines playing? You're seeing a lot of things like Chatbox or voice response. What role will machines play in the services of the future? >> I think it's a fascinating movement that is now put in place where, machine, artificial intelligence, is there to actually enhance value being created for customers. Sometimes you hear this as a threat or as a danger, but I would rather see it as an opportunity to raise levels of service qualities, have this symbiosis between human and machine to actually provide better, outstanding service for customers. >> Could you share some examples of successes there or things that you've studied or researched? >> Yeah so for example, if I take a consumer marketing example. In Europe I worked with a company, which is Nespresso. They do this coffee machines and capsules. In their boutique, they don't call it a store, by the way, they call it a boutique, they have injected a lot of new technology into helping customers to have different touchpoints, get served the way they want to, at the time they want to, how they want to. So this multi-channel, multi-experience for customers, is actually a growing activity. When you look at it from a consumer perspective, I get more opportunities, I get more choices. I can pick and choose when, where, and how I want to be served. A similar example is Procter & Gamble here in the United States. P&G has recently rolled out a new service business, taking a brand, Tide, and creating Tide Dry Cleaners here in America. It's a fascinating example. They use technology like apps on a smartphone to give the customer a much better experience. I think there's many of these example we'll see in the future. >> When we talk about IOT, one of the things that caught our ear in the keynote this morning is, it's going to take 20 to 25 partners putting together this solution. Not only is there integration of software, but one of the big challenges there, I think, is how do you set up services and transform services to be able to live in this multi-vendor environment. I wonder if you could comment on that? >> I agree, I agree. What I see, which makes me as a business professor very excited and that is, of course there's technology, of course there's hardware and software. But one of the biggest challenges will be the business challenges. How do you implement all of these offers? How do you roll it out? One of my talk topics today were how do you commercialize it? How do you actually make money with it? How do you get paid for it? One of my research areas is what they call free to fee. How do you get the r out of the free, and make customers pay for value you create? What I find, especially in the digital services space, there's so much value being created, but not every company is able to capture the value. Getting adequately paid for the value, this is a huge challenge. In sum, I would say it's really an issue about business challenges as much as it's a technological issue or technical challenges. >> I think about IOT, so many of the different transfer protocols, it's open source, that free to fee. Any advice you can give to people out there as to how they capture that value and capture revenue? >> I think you have to be super careful where the commoditization will kick in. If over time, something that was a differentiator yesterday, with the open sources and everything, will become not so much differentiator tomorrow. So where is your competitive edge? How do you stand out from competition? I know these are very classic questions, but you know what? In the IOT and digital space, they resurface, they come back, and having the right answers on these questions will make the difference between you and competition. >> Last question, we got to go. The trend toward self-service, is that a good thing, a bad thing, a depends thing? >> I think everything that allows customers to have choices. Customers today want to be in charge. They want to be in control. They, in fact, want all of it. They want to have service when they want it, but they want to have a non-self-service option if they feel like. So I think the trick is to know, how can I be nimble and give customers all of these choices so that they are in charge and pick and choose. >> Wolfgang, thanks so much for coming to theCUBE. >> Appreciate it, >> It's a pleasure having you, >> thank you very much, >> good to see you. All right, keep it right there, everybody. Stu and I will be back with our next guest right after this short break. We're here at the PTC LiveWorx show, you're watching theCUBE. (electronic music)

from New York it's the cube covering blockchain week now here's John furries hello and welcome back I'm John Fourier we're here on the ground actually on the water on the majesty bow to New York City as decentral has their big unveiling Anthony do you Arielle cube alumni a good friend of the cube is having a massive event here in New York City celebrating the new releases of their new platform their new hardware product actually called the cube to talk about that with Anthony but moreover it's part of a big holistic blockchain week in New York City exciting new projects from new financial products that Kryptos enabling technology innovation a lot of personal people going doing deals so what's going on with you you look great we are at the party looking good people are going crazy out out there we're in a boat I think this kind of environment is very friendly to the kind of community that is created by blockchain naturally so I really commend decentral and Anthony and all of their efforts around this in that they're now creating an environment where I can't walk five feet down the hallway without seeing somebody else that I know and the important thing about that is that now we're really creating this big digital conglomerate we're creating a network of people where I was just speaking to someone outside and he said that it's amazing to see people sharing all kinds of information about their new projects they're they're they're recognizing that there really is enough pie for everyone there's not it is a competition game but really that we should really compete on the application layer and that we should collaborate on the codebase we should collaborate on security and we should collaborate on these really big issues like regulation and privacy so it's amazing to see all these people and that's important that's the open source ethos right there really work together on a project not product because there's a difference between a project and a product and open source is that's languish it's important yeah that's the ethos I love that what's going on in the bug will share some anecdotes what's happening here people who didn't make it couldn't make the boat they you know ate some cars Aston Martin bracelet here what's some of the hallway conversations on the bow what are you hearing here during blockchain week well first of all blockchain week has been has been an amazing opportunity for the blockchain Research Institute to really showcase the work that we are doing to express our interest in enterprise blockchain but really also to support the growing community that is happening in the world and more so in Canada we believe that Canada has an amazing opportunity to to be a leader in blockchain and they are already really a significant amount of the people here our Canadian you know Anthony is a proud Canadian lots of different companies are and one of the major initiatives that we had at consensus was the Canadian Pavilion so we gathered together 23 Canadian blockchain companies and by the way you need a bigger room we did because so many there was a lot yeah open your own conference but the key part with that is that we really wanted to showcase the amazing Canadian innovations that are happening so that people recognize that you know Canada and the more specifically the Toronto Waterloo corridor is is the next Silicon Valley the next hub of blockchain and of quantum computing and of AI and so if you take those three together really those are done taps got an Allen snaps got our two co-founders they authored a report for the World Economic Forum and they argued that that blockchain really is the third leg of the stool that we need to provide an atmosphere for innovation and this was a really good way for us to do that and certainly it's got money tied to its the applications now have a financial component token economics a real key enabler in this to us certainly blockchain check great we love it everyone loves blockchain but it's the token economics that kick in that are starting to see money things applications tying into tokens and coins and yeah I think but that really creates a lot of it creates a lot of confusion it creates a lot of noise suddenly you know in that in the first generation of the internet we we said you know government hands off we want to you know we want to regulate this ourselves this is our thing it's the age of information like like that Tapscott said you know we're entering the internet of value but in entering the internet of value we're now we're now no longer dealing with just information we're dealing with things that matter to people we're dealing with identity and privacy and physical assets and you know real estate and all kinds of different things that are really foundations of the economy and in this case we really need the community to come together and support a regulatory environment because if we don't then the regulator's will and it won't work in the in our messengers it's got to be open open always be proprietary I'm so convinced that open source software which I have lived that generation when it was we were fighting for you know UNIX versus Xenu copyright with AT&T and then was a tea or two citizen now it runs the world's Tier one source one and the model is proven it's coming to crypto and yeah you see that do you see that coming clearly or did that I think as as platforms like you know obviously aetherium but as platforms like hyper ledger and r3s Corte and the forum platform from JPMorgan as these platforms grow in size and grow in membership and grow in in collaboration people will see that the the way to collaborate it's all about this I don't know if you've seen the graphs about fad protocols yes now we're in trusting our payments and our identities and our you know the things that really matter to us we're not giving them to the application layer anymore we're giving them to the protocol layer and if we're giving them to the protocol layer then we really need to collaborate to ensure that all that information is correct all the time and the only way we're going to be able to do that is to be able to create open source platforms and open source activities where everyone is able to participate that's the only way we can create something and if you want to take the code and do something downstream for that liberation please so we have lots of enterprise clients like Procter & Gamble and ExxonMobil and and PepsiCo and others where they're very interested in in enterprise blockchain but at the same time they want to be able to leverage the security of the public chain right it's um Matt spoke at a a Onix had a really really interesting comment about two weeks ago he said I think and he apologized in advance like this might be controversial but but I really think he's right in that he said you know five ten twenty years down the road we won't know the difference between an enterprise blockchain and a public chain right like we're gonna be up we will be a choice right I do you think we'll be able to have it we'll get to a point where it will be dumb not to use the public chain it will be dumb not to be able to leverage the security of it because if you and I enter into you know if we build our own blockchain together I mean that's great one of interesting things too you missed the panel because you might have seen Jimmy song's debate with I did yes that was very provocative so he's got a point on it's just two sides of the coin you know no pun intended right one is what you're saying that enterprises can come in Jimmy was saying is that it's a waste to use the public chain now because some inefficiencies he's technically accurate but that's gonna get better so I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater sometime no I agree but but I think there's a lot of solutions to come in the next year or two or three around interoperability and I think at the end of the day everyone should be able to use whatever blockchain that they think best fits their features but that they should integrate with it with a company like a on or icon or metronome or all these other interesting interoperability projects where you're able to to leverage the security of the public chain but also be able to continue to have your own ecosystem together yeah son of Don Tapscott about this one you interview them at an IBM event and and I'm old enough that I've seen a couple although some of these waves and I lived and I hear the same arguments all the time oh the performance is not there compared to this and easily but these are waves these are shifts right so PC oh no one's having anything with that you know Delta goes on on on web oh it's the so it's slow to dial-up and load a webpage but all of them who were shifts in growth growth was coming behind it yeah so that's the wrong conversations are happening the growth is coming so you guys really nail it with your analysis I think I had your team because it is the shift it is about not necessarily getting in the weeds over did this one thing is it good now yeah great work or well will something really move forward I think that so don actually said in 1992 i in paradigm shift he said that leaders of old paradigms often have trouble embracing the new and so for us at the blockchain research institute we really exist to bridge that knowledge gap between top-tier executives like fred smith and rob carter from FedEx like you know internally at PepsiCo we aim to bridge that knowledge gap so that they just better know how to flow funds within their own company just doing great one is doing great work well to get me to give a plug real quick love your work explaining some of the things you guys are doing you're on the right track I can say I love what you're doing I looked at it it's right on but you're open you're not like you know down on your fist on the table yeah you guys are cool with the work you guys are doing so we're doing 80 projects on the strategic applications of blockchain technology in a variety of industries so our research fits in three categories we have verticals where financial services is obviously our largest vertical but we're also looking into projects in in retail and manufacturing in supply chain in healthcare in government in media and telecommunications in resources and mining and you know you know pickaxe mining not real mining mining old-school mining yeah and then we're also looking at a lot of the management applications of blockchain so you know the first generation of the internet didn't really do a lot to change the structure of the corporation it allows that it allowed us to find people all over the world I can find people to do anything but I still have to negotiate a contract with them myself to enter into an agreement I sell to establish trust but if we now have this amazingly fluid technology that allows us to lower the cost of search the cost of negotiating contracts the cost of contracting and the cost of establishing trust then that blows the windows and the walls of the corporation wide open and in that we are really driving to help our member organizations understand the nature of the firm is changing economic theory of yesteryear being disrupted really fast way yeah vodka Jane thanks for coming up here one more question yes this week what did you hear in the out there in the city what's your observation for the people didn't make it to New York a lot of great face to face a lot of great engagement good networking good contacts growing ecosystem but still a tight-knit community people know each other they're sharing information what did you hear share some data some insights that that folks couldn't get if they didn't come I think for us a lot of the reason that we are here is that it's a you know peril if you don't show up it's being part of a community if if we are going to show a leadership role in this community then we need to show up for our colors we need to show up for companies that that you know may not be able to advocate for themselves I've met so many interesting companies this week that either do not have the resources or they're trying to raise money or they're trying to be investors and and the life of an entrepreneur obviously is is a tough one and for us we we have a growing pioneer membership at the blockchain Research Institute where we aim to connect large corporations who are looking for or looking to invest in different in different watching platforms but don't know where to start and so we run essentially a white listing service where we are partnered with lots of amazing companies like pay case and shift and Collider X and a on and all these different companies where they're they're really working to move the ball forward as well as make an impact so yeah it was for us it was it was looking for more innovative companies but also you know doing our part showing our role this was a one of the first times that I actually saw Don Tapscott a now except thought actively you know taking meanings and participating in the conversation and and being present and being there so so for us it was a lot of it was presence he was a lot of presidents we're some fun you having fun I am yes yes behind us is a boat we're on it we're in the front part we're in the anthony o diario private suite lounge here's where he can relax it gets kind of a green room behind us awesome DJ four stories of boat going down to your just past the Statue of Liberty a lot of action let's get back to the partying what are you saying alright I'm jump for it thanks for watching we're on the boat New York City thank you for watching

Live from San Juan, Puerto Rico. It's the Cube. Covering Blockchain Unbound. Brought to you by, Blockchain Industries. >> Welcome back everyone. This is the Cube's exclusive coverage in Puerto Rico. I'm John Furrier, the co-host of the Cube, co-founder of SiliconANGLE Media. In Puerto Rico for Blockchain Unbound, this is a global conference. Going to the next level in industry migration up and growth, and blockchain, decentralized internet and obviously cryptocurrency, changing the world up and down the stack. I have an industry veteran here. My next guest Salim is founding CEO, Singularity University and author of the best-selling book, Exponential Organizations. He's seen many waves, friend, known him for years. Haven't seen you in a while, you look great. You haven't changed. >> (laughs) The hair has changed a lot. >> (laughs) I've still got mine. Hey great to see you. Bumping into you in Puerto Rico is really compelling because you have a nose for the future, and I've always respected that about you. You have the ability to understand at the root level what's going on but also pull back and see the big picture. Puerto Rico is the center of all the action because the killer wrap in this is money. So money is driving a lot of change, but there's some fundamental infrastructure, stack upgrades going on. Blockchain has been highly discussed, crypto is highly hyped, ICO's are-- Scammers out there but now some legits. What's your take? What's your view right now on the current situation? >> Well I think what's happening with a place like Puerto Rico is. When you get kind of wiped out of the old, you have the chance to leap-frog. When you think about any of our traditional environments, laying down Blockchain technologies, et cetera. It's really, really hard because you have to get the Supreme Court, the Constitution to approve blockchain based land titles, and then you build a stack there from a legal perspective. Here they can basically start from scratch and do it completely from the ground up. Which is what's exciting for everybody here. >> The top story that we've been reporting here is that Puerto Rico is rebooting. The hurricane obviously, I won't say a forcing function, but in general when you get wiped out, that is certainly an opportunity to rebuild. If there's any kind of silver lining in that. >> There's a long history of that. Japan got wiped out during World War II, so did Germany and they rebounded incredibly. We've seen that recently with Rwanda. We do a lot of work in Medillin, in Colombia, and that's just been one of the worst cities in the world, is now the most innovative city in the world. So this is the transition that we've seen a pattern for. >> One of the things I'm really excited about decentralization and blockchain is all the conversations have the same pattern. Efficiency is getting wired into things. So if you see slack in the system or inefficiencies, entrepreneurs are feeling the void. The entrepreneurial eye of the tiger goes that to that opportunity to reset, reduce steps, save time and make things easier. Classic value proposition in these new markets. You run a great university but also author of Exponential Organizations. A lot of people are scared, they're like, "Whoa, hold on. Slow down, this is bullshit, "we're not going to prove it." And then the other half saying, "No this is the future." So you have two competing forces colliding. You have the new guard saying, "We got to do this, this is the future." Old guard saying, "Blocks, Road blocks, blockers" You covered this in your book in a way, so how do you win, who wins? How do you create a win win? >> You can create a win win. What you have to do is leap-frog to the newest, fast as possible. The only question is, how can you get to the new? And the problem that you have is, as you rightly pointed out is. When you try disruptive innovation in any large organization or institution, the immune system attacks. I saw this at Yahoo running Brickhouse. Yahoo is supposedly a super advanced organization, and yet the minute you try to do something really radical, you spend all your time fighting the mother ship. So I've been focusing a lot of time the last few years focused on that particular problem, and we're pretty excited, we believe we've cracked it. >> How does someone crack that code? If I'm Puerto Rico, obviously the government officials are here at Blockchain Unbound. This is not just a tech conference. It's like a tech conference, investor conference, kind of world economic form rolled into one. >> Sure >> There's some serious players here. What's your advice to them? >> So what we do, and let me describe what we do in the private sector and what we do in the public sector. A couple of years ago, the global CI of Procter & Gamble came to me and said, "Hey, we'd like to work with you." And what we typically see is, some executive from a big company will come to Singularity. They'll go back headquarters with their hair on fire going, "Oh my god!" If they're from BMW for example. They go back going, "Drones, autonomous cars, hyperloop, VR." Back in Munich, they'll be given a white coat and some medicine and be put in a corner. "You're too crazy, now stand over there." And that's the tension that you are talking about. And then somebody else will come six months later then they'll do the Silicon Valley tour, then they'll have one of our people go over there, and it takes about three years for the big company to get up to speed, just the C-Suite to get up to speed. Forget transmitting that down. So I was talking to Linda Clement-Holmes and I said, "Look we're about to start this three year dance "I've been thinking about this, "let's shrink it to 10 weeks." So we designed what we now call an ExO Sprint. Which is how you get a leadership, culture and management thinking of a legacy organization, three years ahead in a 10 week process. And the way we do it is, we're in an opening workshop, that's really shock and awe. Freaks out all the incumbent management. And then young leaders and future lieutenants of the business do the thinking of what should come next. And they report back. Some thing about that opening workshop suppresses the immune system, and when the new ideas arrive they don't attack them in the same way. >> It's like a transplant if you will. >> It's like when you do a kidney transplant. You suppress the immune system, right? It's that same idea. So we've now run that like a dozen times. We just finished TD Ameritrade, HP, Visa, Black & Decker, et cetera. We're open-sourcing it. We're writing a manual on how to do it so that anybody can self-provision that process and run it. Because, every one of the Global 5000 has to go through that process with or without us. So then we said, "Okay, could we apply it to the public sector?" Where the existing policy is the immune system. You try and update transportation and you're fighting the taxis. Or education and you're fighting the teacher's unions. We have a 16 week process that we run in cities. We do it through a non-profit called the Fastrack Institute based out of Miami. We've run it four times in Medillin, in Colombia and we just finished four months with the mayor of Miami on the future of transportation. We're talking to the officials here about running a similar process here in Puerto Rico. >> Are they serious about that? Because they throw money at projects, it kind of sits on the vine, dies on the vine. Because there is an accelerated movement right now. I mean, exponential change is here. I'll give you an example. We're seeing and reporting that this digital nation trend is on fire. Suddenly everyone wants digital cities, IoT is out there. But now what cryptocurrency, the money being the killer app. It's flowing everywhere, out of Colombia, out of everywhere. Every country is moving money around with crypto it's easier, faster. So everyone is trying to be the crypto, ICO city. Saw it on Telegram today, France wants to be, Paris wants to be the ICO city. Puerto Rico, Bahrain, Armenia, Estonia. U.K. just signed a deal with Coinbase. What the hell is going on? How do you rationalize this and what do you see as a future of state here? >> Well I think, couple of thoughts. And you're hitting into some of the things I've been thinking about a lot recently. Number one is, that when you have a regulatory blockage, it's a huge economic developing opportunity for anybody that can leap-frog it. Nevada authorized autonomous cars early and now a lot of testing is done there. So the cities that have appreciated-- >> So you're saying regulatory is an opportunity to have a competitive advantage? >> Huge, because look at Zug in Switzerland. Nobody had ever heard of the place. You pass through there on the way to Zermatt. But now it's like a destination that everybody needs to get to because they were earlier. This is the traditional advantage of places like Hong Kong or Dubai or whatever. They're open and they're hungry. So we're going to see a lot of that going on. I think there's a bigger trend though, which is that we're seeing more and more action happen at the city level and very, very little happen at the national or global level. The world is moving too fast today for a big country to keep up. It's all going to happen this next century at the city level. >> Or smaller countries. >> Or small countries. >> So what's going on here at Blockchain Unbound for you? Why are you here? What are you doing? What's your story? >> I have this kind of sprint that we run in the private sector and in the public sector and then a community of about 200 consultants. And I have to pay 200 people in 40 countries and it's and unholy mess. Withholding taxes and concerns around money transfer costs-- >> It's a hassle. >> It's a nightmare. And so I've been thinking about an internal cryptocurrency just to pay our network. All of a sudden now, three or four countries have said, "Hey we want to buy that thing, "to have access to your network." So I've got all this demand over here, and I need to figure out how to design this thing properly. So I've been working with some of the folks like Brock and DNA and others to help think through it. But what I'm really excited about here is that, there's a-- You know what I love is the spectrum of dress. You got the radical, Burning Man, hippie guy, all the way to a three-piece suit. And that diversity is very, very rich and really, real creativity comes from it. This feels like the web in '96, '95. It's just starting, people know there's something really magical. They don't quite know what to do. >> Well what I'm impressed about is that there's no real bad vibe from either sets of groups. There's definitely some posturing, I've noticed some things. Obviously I'm wearing a jacket, so those guys aren't giving me hugs like they're giving Brock a hug. I get that, but the thing is, the coexistence is impressive. I'm not seeing any real mud-slinging, again I didn't like how Brock got handled with John Oliver. I thought that was unacceptable because he's done a lot of good work. I don't know him personally, I've never met him, but I like what he's doing, I like his message. His keynote here, at d10e, was awesome. Really the right messaging, I thought. That's something that I want to get behind and I think everyone should. But he just got trashed. Outside of that, welcoming culture. And they're like, "Hey if you don't like it, "just go somewhere else." They're not giving people a lot of shit for what they do. It's really accepting on all sides. >> Here's my take on the whole decentralization thing. We run the world today on a series of very top down hierarchical structures. The corporation, the military industrial complex, Judeo-Christian religions, et cetera. That are very hierarchical-- Designed for managing scarcity, right? We're moving the world very, very quickly to abundance. We now have an abundance of information, we'll soon have an abundance of energy, we'll soon have an abundance of money, et cetera. And when you do these new structures, you need very decentralized structures. Burning Man, the maker movement, the open-source movement, et cetera. It's a very nurturing, participatory, female type of archetype and we're moving very quickly to that. What we're seeing in the world today is the tension going from A to B. >> And also when you have that next level, you usually have entrepreneurs and sponsorships. People who sponsor entrepreneurs the promotion side of it, PR and that starts the industry. Then when it hits that level it's like, "Wow it's going to the next level." Then it gets capital markets to come in. Then you have new stake holders coming in now with government officials. This thing is just rocket-shipping big time. >> Yes >> And so, that's going to change the dynamics. Your thoughts and reaction to that dynamic. >> Completely, for example... When we do these public sprints we end up usually with a decentralized architecture that needs to built. For example, we're working with the justice system in Colombia. And the Supreme Court has asked us to come in and re-do the entire justice system. Now you think about all the court filings and court dates, and briefs, and papers all should be digitized and put on a blockchain type structure because it's all public filing. We have an opportunity to completely re-do that stack and then make that available to the rest of the world. I think that trend is irreversible for anything that previously had centered-- I mean, most government services are yes, ratifying this and ratifying that. They all disappear. >> Well Salim, I want to tap your brain for a second. Since you're here, get it out there, I want to throw a problem at you, quick real time riff with you. So one of the things that I've been thinking about is obviously look at what cloud computing did, no one saw Amazon web services early, except some of the insiders like us. Who saw it's easy to host and build a data center. "I have no money, I'm a start-up or whatever." You use AWS, EC2 and S3... They were misunderstood, now it's clear what they're doing. But that generated the DevOps movement. So question for you is, I want to riff with you on is, "Okay that created programmable infrastructure, "the notion of server-less now going mainstream." Meaning, I don't have to talk about the server, I need resource so I can just make software, make it happen. That's flipped around the old model, where it used to be the network would dictate to the applications what they could do. How is that DevOps ethos, certainly it's driven by open-source, get applied to this cryptocurrency? Because now you have blockchain, cryptocurrency, ICO is kind of an application if you will, capital market. How does that model get flipped? Is there a DevOps model, a blockchain ops model, where the decentralized apps are programming the blockchain? Because the plumbing is the moving chain right now. You got, Hashgraph's got traction, then you got Etherium, Lightning's just got 2.5 million dollars. I mean, anyone who's technical knows it's a moving train in the plumbing. But the business logic is pretty well-defined. I'm like, "I want to innovate this process. "I'm going to eliminate the efficiency." So this dynamic. Does the business model drive infrastructure? Does the plumbing drive the business model? Your thoughts on this new dynamic and how that plays out. >> I suspect you and in violent agreement here. It's always going to be lead by the business model because you need something to act as the power of pull to pull the thing along, right? The real reason for the success of Etherium right now is all the ICOs and it was a money driven thing. Today we're going to see these new stacks, now we're on version three of these new types of stacks coming along, and I think they're all looking for a business model. Once we find some new killer ops for this decentralized structure, then you'll see things happen. But the business model is where it's at. >> So basically I agree with you. I think we're on the same page here. But then advice would be to the entrepreneurs, don't fret about the infrastructure, just nail your business model because the switching cost might not be as high as you think. Where in the old days, when we grew up, you made a bad technical assess and you're out of business. So it's kind of flipped around. >> Yeah, just hearing about this term, atomic swaps. Where you can just, essentially once you have a tokenized structure, you can just move it to something else pretty quickly. Therefore, all the effort should be on that. I think finding the really compelling use cases for this world is going to be fascinating to see. >> So software-defined money, software-defined business, software defined society is coming. >> Yes >> Okay, software defined, that's the world Salim thanks for coming on, sharing your awesome expert opinon. Congratulations on your awesome book. How many countries is your book, Exponential Organizations-- >> It's now about a quarter of a million copies in 15 languages. >> Required reading in all MBA programs, and the C-Suite. Congratulations, it's like the TANEx Engineering that Mark Dandriso put out. A whole new paradigm of management is happening. Digital transformation. >> We now have the ability to scale an organization structure as fast as we can scale technology. >> Blockchain you know, the nature of the firm was all about having people in one spot. So centralized, you can manage stuff. Now with blockchain you have a decentralized organization. That's your new book, the Decentralized Organization. >> Although, I'm not sure I have another book in me. >> There's a book out there for somebody, Decentralized Organizations. Salim, thank you for joining us. The Cube here, I'm John Furrier the co-host. Day two coverage of Blockchain Unbound more coverage after this short break. (electronic music)