>> Live from Los Angeles, it's theCube covering Open Source Summit North America 2017 brought to you by the Linux Foundation and Red Hat. >> Hey welcome back everyone, live here at Los Angeles, California it's theCUBE's exclusive coverage of the Open Source Summit in North America. I'm John Furrier, your host with my co-host Stu Miniman with Wikibon, and our next two guests, Alan Dickenson who is the program director of the blockchain platform at IBM and Shaun Frankson, who's the co-founder and TED speaker at a company called The Plastic Bank doing some truly amazing things with technology for the betterment of society and communities. We'll get this out in a second. Guys, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thanks for having us. >> So two important things honestly. IBM, well-known in the history books that's being written. Real proponent of Linux, they were one of the early guys in during that movement, with a billion dollars in cash. That's a big number. You guys went all in on Linux, good bet, Linux was successful, it's now the standard so congratulations. Now you have the same thing going on with Blockchain. IBM's got the big bet, the company's best brains at work working on blockchain, kind of reminds me of the Linux move back in the day. Pretty impressive. >> Yeah I mean, there's a lot going on with Blockchain and one of the reasons we're here is that this is a developer event. We really want to help accelerate technology adoption and with our platform we launched two weeks ago, we have a whole suite of capabilities that developers can use that's complimentary, that's free and they can use that to go and try blockchain with a Hyperledger Composer and they can experiment and work on blockchain projects. >> You know I love the IBM marketing department, they always have the best commercials. To me I also love the Smarter Planet and I think Shaun, I would like to give you a chance to talk about your amazing project you have going on. Take a minute to explain, you're up on stage here at the event, pretty compelling, great social good, real value. What's some tech behind it. Take a minute to talk about your work. >> At The Plastic Bank we make plastic waste a currency so in developing countries it can be too valuable to enter the ocean. So the mission to use technology to stop ocean plastic. So we create a recycling ecosystems all around the world where people can go out, recycle the plastic that's abundant in the environment, they can earn enough value to provide for their families, send their kids to school and we have this entire ecosystem where we gather the plastic, we have these incentive programs to sort it, recycle, then we actually sell it back to some of the world's largest corporations who can use that recycled social plastic in their products instead of using new plastic. Which means that every single product tells a story of stopping ocean plastic, reducing global poverty and this really allows just a responsible consumer to make a choice that's helping to stop ocean plastic in the end. >> Well great story I just want to drill down because this highlights couple of big trends we've seen in the Internet business as it got into Big Data. And certainly you guys know a lot about that at IBM. The collective intelligence idea of having these self-forming communities, you think of any problem. Recycling plastic, which is not that hard to do, you go to the placement. How do you get it institutionalized? Is the collective intelligence problem. So you got a clever idea to do this but you also have to support it. There's a lot of cost involved so how did you pull this together? What were some of the nuance to keep the incentives, to keep the motivation, to create the payouts. We all recycle our cans for five cents at some points in our lives, I remember when I was in college it helped me a lot. But it's a whole other scale here. Take a minute to talk about the technology. >> For sure. So we're starting in developing countries that essentially have almost no existing waste management systems so we're really starting from the ground and looking at the way of how do we remove the dangers of the cash-based systems, instead have an asset-backed token that we can safely distribute and create new abilities. So really we're dealing with the unbankable who can now for the first time, save and earn through recycling. So it's not really not looking of how do we go back to you know, what's been done in the past, it's how do we take an area and start with the best technology that exists to safely bring in these new systems. >> When you say unbankable, what does that mean? >> I mean sadly, but most of the world does not qualify for a bank account. They don't have the identity, they don't have the credit history, so it's simple concept of how do you save 200 dollars to send your kid to school. You essentially hide it under a mattress and hope that nothing happens in between. But when you can safely have a digital wallet, it's just instant savings. >> Mobile phone penetration is pretty high in these areas, so they might have mobility but no actual institutional credit bank account, am I getting that right? >> Oh exactly. It's amazing when we think there's countries with no power but who have phones. So that means the education of the mobile payments is still there, it's not a foreign concept, but now you can earn the tokens which can then even be converted into mobile payment. Again where recycling is the equal opportunity. >> So are you using the blockchain component, IBM blockchain, or are you guys using a derivatives, what's the tech? >> So we use IBM blockchain, Hyperledger Fabric and LinuxOne and you know it's a system designed to scale around the world without any interruptions and just it's a go big go at home and do it right. >> You mentioned LinuxOne and I believe there's some announcements week around how to secure containers even more and we've been trying LinuxOne, Linux on the mainframe for quite a few years. Give us the update on what's new. >> One of the new things that we're announcing at this year's show is Emperor II. It's a new Linux platform and it's the technology that's underpinning The Plastic Bank's blockchain. The other thing that we're announcing is the beta for Secure Services Containers. Around the globe we have a lot of cases where data is stolen and blockchain's another type of data, we don't want it to get stolen even though there's a lot of encryption in blockchain. We still don't want the data stolen and people trying to get at it. So we have this idea of Secure Service Containers that kind of wraps around the application and protects it from malware, protects it from insiders, can't see it, insider credentials get compromised, goes into the main ways, data gets stolen. You have to do it that way. Even if IBM gets a court order for us to reveal your blockchain data, we can't do it. It's protected and encrypted in this area, and only you have the encryption keys. So the beta for that is something we also announced today. And then two weeks ago we announced the blockchain platform, it's kind of a technology that we put in place to accelerate and help people. >> Security is a huge issue, I mean the ICO marker for instance, remind me of the old stagecoach robberies, right. You literally do like a multimillion dollar ICO, completely a secured, when you're getting your wallet getting snatched, you're getting hijacked, is that something that is related to that? Or is that just a point of the security is still an open book? I mean you can have secure transactions on the blockchain but you still got your wallets out there, so you got to have a wallet strategy. >> Most of the Secure Container technology can be used for any Linux application that you run when it's out of beta. Right now it's in beta. So we're looking for users that want to have a very secure application environment, running on Linux and sign then up for our beta. >> Shaun can you tell us, what led you to this solution? I'm sure security has got to be high on your list, the kind of financial transactions that are involved in it, but I have to say a young small company, mainframe is not the initial thing that we think of. >> Again, the only way to solve the global problems is really go on such a scale that we can have hundreds of millions of pounds provided to the world's largest companies. Which just means it's got to be large scale, no interruptions and for us, trust is the biggest thing. Investor trust, client trust, and just even everyone's trust that not only the financial side, but you know we're delivering a promise of social good, environmental justice, that if we get an irrefutable trust that it's just the right system, and to me, blockchain's a trust stamp, IBM's a trust stamp, LinuxOne is a trust stamp that just it's the right way to do it on a global scale. And for us it was global was the only way to go. >> And now of course, the supply chain is a channel that you're dealing with that blockchain is a good fit for. A lot of these early use cases, their supply chain like, well you got to keep track of a lot of moving parts and who's contributing to what. >> You can have a digital token that represents the physical asset and you can kind of track it through that way and blockchain can keep the information safe and documented so that you don't lose track of the value. >> Well we're super excited. As you know, we're looking at blockchain for our audience and our world, so it's interesting, a lot of the blockchain, certainly people see the hype and the scams out there and the ICO stuff, which is natural, they're early market, the underbelly kind of shows itself, we've seen that movie before. But, here's the thing that I've never seen in my career ever. Very often, when you have alpha geeks getting super excited, we're talking CTOs, really strong technical people, and A plus entrepreneurs, they're salivating at the blockchain opportunity because they're the canaries in the coal mines in my opinion on disruption opportunities. You seeing use cases where I can solve that problem, people with passion are going after these new opportunities that were ungettable before because you'd have to roll out this complex software product, all these costs to get started. Same pattern. >> We're seeing a lot of technology people get excited about it. But they understand the technology relatively quickly and they can get it. What seems to be slowing down a lot of blockchain adoption is more the linkages with other organizations because when you're exchanging value, you're passing it between one organization and another, and another and a value chain. And getting that value chain where you can articulate who it is, and codifying the ways that you work with the people in the value chain and create a smart contract around that, that's what we see slowing down the progress of blockchain. >> We had Brian Behlendorf on yesterday, he runs the SmartLedger project for the group and we talked about decentralizations versus distributive, we all know what distributive computing is, we've seen that. But now with decentralizations, he had a good quote, he said, minimum viable decentralization and 'cause if people think that you have to have a completely decentralized environment which I thought was a really good observation. >> I agree, I heard him say that and it reminded me of one of the steps we see in blockchain progression is we have to get a minimum viable ecosystem together. We see people sometimes biting off too big of a problem and one thing I like about The Plastic Bank's approach is that they try to get it working right somewhere first and then scale from there. And then the same thing with blockchain. You have to get your ecosystem defined, you have to get that working and then expand from there. And that's one of the things that we've designed into our blockchain platform, is the ability to govern a group of folks that are trying to exchange value and then also how to operate a blockchain once it's exchanging value with a group of folks. Things like, lets say you have a new version of Hyperledger Fabric, you want to take down your blockchain that's operating while you install the new version, but we've made sure that you can do that in a smooth way that keeps on running. >> You know Alan, that is a super smart observation. I hundred percent agree with you. I've always said this, and Stu and I and Dave, we talked about this. Blockchain is a community win. The community could win this together as the community participants increase in that kind of philosophy, the value increases. If it's a winner take all, it doesn't work, clearly. So what do you guys with the ecosystem? That's a good question. Are you guys investing in the ecosystem? Can you give some examples. Obviously you're supporting great projects. >> We've built a lot of technology but one of the things that is unique about IBM's approach to blockchain is the governance tools that we've created to help manage the ecosystem. We're the only blockchain partner out there right now that has these kind of ecosystem partner tools that can kind of speed the creation of bringing multi parties together and helping them think through how they should govern the creation and then also the operation of the blockchain. What if you want to add a few more members after your blockchain is running? That's a technology problem, but it's also a business problem. And will your blockchain keep running? >> Well we'll keep in touch, we definitely want to do a lot more coverage on what you guys are doing. I think it's instrumental, we're doing a lot of coverage as well on the ICO side, tracking that business side of it, but down on the enterprise it's a lot of activity coming and I think Accenture is going to do very well. Shaun, get back to you for a second. Want to ask you a quick question. On a personal note, what has been a learning from your process? You're doing, what seems to be probably an exciting and intoxicating job where you're making social good happen, using some tech. I mean, it's a cool project. Assuming there's been some bumps along the road like any other entrepreneurial venture. What are some of the learnings you've taken away from where you are today, where you've come from and what you achieved? What are some personal learnings? >> I think really the two biggest things is one, especially coming from just a entrepreneurial nature, it's not what you know, it's what you can figure out. There's always a how. And for us, when it was when you come up with such a giant idea and you just know where it's going and where it can go past there. Mentally just becoming the person capable of achieving what you are trying to achieve as compared to getting caught up on all the things you don't know, I mean the more you know, the more you know how much you don't know and it's really just getting inspired by the fact that whatever the next answer, whatever the next hiccup, whatever the next how, we'll figure it out. I might now know the answer, but I'm committed to figuring it out and committed to becoming the person capable of figuring it out. And you know it's a journey and process and an inspiring journey to be on. >> You got to dream the future to create it. What you're saying is it's a growth mindset, I love that growth mindset, say hey we're going to go after it, we're going to see some things and have to figure it out, that's a great mindset. Versus nervousness and insecurity. Good job, well done. Well congratulations on your success and thanks for coming on theCUBE, we really appreciate it. Alan, we look forward to chatting with you in the future and talking blockchain. IBM here on theCUBE with the great projects they're doing on blockchain and also they had an announcement a couple weeks ago around some really cutting edge value around food distribution and value chain so again, Smarter Planet, I know you guys do a lot of investments early on but congratulations, and continued success Shaun. Live coverage here from the Open Source Summit in Los Angeles, California. It's theCube, I'm John Furrier, Stu Minniman, be right back with more after this short break.

(upbeat music) >> Narrator: Live from Los Angeles it's The Cube covering Open Source Summit North America 2017. Brought to you by the Lennox Foundation and Red Hat. >> Welcome back, everyone. Live in Los Angeles for The Cube's exclusive coverage of the Open Source Summit North America. I'm John Furrier, your host, with my co-host, Stu Miniman. Our next guest is Elaine Yeung, @egsy on Twitter, check her out. Student at Holberton School? >> At Holberton School. >> Holberton School. >> And that's in San Francisco? >> I'm like reffing the school right here. (laughs) >> Looking good. You look great, so. Open Source is a new generation. It's going to go from 64 million libraries to 400 million by 2026. New developers are coming in. It's a whole new vibe. >> Elaine: Right. >> What's your take on this, looking at this industry right now? Looking at all this old, the old guard, the new guard's coming in, a lot of cool things happening. Apple's new ARKit was announced today. You saw VR and ARs booming, multimedia. >> Elaine: Got that newer home button. Right, like I-- >> It's just killer stuff happening. >> Stu: (laughs) >> I mean, one of the reason why I wanted to go into tech, and this is why I, like, when I told them that I applied to Holberton School, was that I really think at whatever next social revolution we have, technology is going to be somehow interval to it. It's probably not even, like, an existing technology right now. And, as someone who's just, like, social justice-minded, I wanted to be able to contribute in that way, so. >> John: Yeah. >> And develop a skillset that way. >> Well, we saw the keynote, Christine Corbett Moran, was talking really hardcore about code driving culture. This is happening. >> Elaine: Right. So this is not, like, you know, maybe going to happen, we're starting to see it. We're starting to see the culture being shaped by code. And notions of ruling classes and elites potentially becoming democratized 100% because now software, the guys and gals doing it are acting on it and they have a mindset-- >> Elaine: Right. >> That come from a community. So this is interesting dynamic. As you look at that, do you think that's closer to reality? Where in your mind's eye do you see it? 'Cause you're in the front lines. You're young, a student, you're immersed in that, in all the action. I wish I was in your position and all these great AI libraries. You got TensorFlow from Google, you have all this goodness-- >> Elaine: Right. >> Kind of coming in, I mean-- >> So you're, so let me make sure I am hearing your question right. So, you're asking, like, how do I feel about the democratization of, like, educ-- >> John: Yeah, yeah. Do you feel it? Are you there? Is it happening faster? >> Well, I mean, things are happening faster. I mean, I didn't have any idea of, like, how to use a terminal before January. I didn't know, like, I didn't know my way around Lennox or GitHub, or how to push a commit, (laughs) until I started at Holberton School, so. In that sense, I'm actually experiencing this democratization of-- >> John: Yeah. >> Of education. The whole, like, reason I'm able to go to this school is because they actually invest in the students first, and we don't have to pay tuition when we enroll. It's only after we are hired or actually, until we have a job, and then we do an income-share agreement. So, like, it's really-- >> John: That's cool. >> It's really cool to have, like, a school where they're basically saying, like, "We trust in the education that we're going to give you "so strongly that you're not going to pay up front. >> John: Yeah. >> "Because we know you're going to get a solid job and "you'll pay us at that point-- >> John: Takes a lot of pressure off, too. >> Yeah. >> John: 'Cause then you don't have to worry about that overhang. >> Exactly! I wrote about that in my essay as well. Yeah, just, like because who wants to, like, worry about student debt, like, while you're studying? So, now I can fully focus on learning C, learning Python (laughs) (mumbles) and stuff. >> Alright, what's the coolest thing that you've done, that's cool, that you've gotten, like, motivated on 'cause you're getting your hands dirty, you get the addiction. >> Stu: (laughs) >> Take us through the day in the life of like, "Wow, this is a killer." >> Elaine: I don't know. Normally, (laughs) I'm just kind of a cool person, so I feel like everything I-- no, no. (laughs) >> John: That's a good, that's the best answer we heard. >> (laughs) Okay, so we had a battle, a rap battle, at my school of programming languages. And so, I wrote a rap about Bash scripts and (laughs) that is somewhere on the internet. And, I'm pretty sure that's, like, one of the coolest things. And actually, coming out here, one of my school leaders, Sylvain, he told me, he was like, "You should actually put that, "like, pretty, like, front and center on your "like, LinkedIn." Or whatever, my profile. And what was cool, was when I meet Linus yesterday, someone who had seen my rap was there and it's almost like it was, like, set up because he was like, "Oh, are you the one "that was rapping Bash?" And, I was like, "Well, why yes, that was me." (laughs) >> John: (laughs) >> And then Linus said it was like, what did he say? He was like, "Oh, that's like Weird Al level." Like, just the fact that I would make up a rap about Bash Scripts. (laughs) >> John: That's so cool. So, is that on your Twitter handle? Can we find that on your Twitter handle? >> Yes, you can. I will-- >> Okay, E-G-S-Y. >> Yes. >> So, Elaine, you won an award to be able to come to this show. What's your take been on the show so far? What was exciting about you? And, what's your experience been so far? >> To come to the Summit. >> Stu: Yeah. >> Well, so, when I was in education as a dean, we did a lot of backwards planning. And so, I think for me, like, that's just sort of (claps hands). I was looking into the future, and I knew that in October I would need to, like, start looking for an internship. And so, one of my hopes coming out here was that I would be able to expand my network. And so, like that has been already, like that has happened like more than I even expected in terms of being able to meet new people, come out here and just, like, learn new things, but also just like hear from all these, everyone's experience in the industry. Everyone's been just super awesome (laughs) and super positive here. >> Yeah. We usually find, especially at the Open Source shows, almost everyone's hiring. You know, there's huge demand for software developers. Maybe tell us a little bit about Holberton school, you know, and how they're helping, you know, ramp people up and be ready for kind of this world? >> Yeah. So, it's a two-year higher education alternative, and it is nine months of programming. So, we do, and that's split up into three months low-level, so we actually we did C, where we, you know, programmed our own shell, we programmed printf. Then after that we followed with high-levels. So we studied Python, and now we're in our CIS Admin track. So we're finishing out the last three months. And, like, throughout it there's been a little bit, like, intermix. Like, we did binary trees a couple weeks ago, and so that was back in C. And so, I love it when they're, like, throwing, like, C at us when we've been doing Python for a couple weeks, and I'm like, "Dammit, I have to put semicolons (laughs) >> John: (laughs) >> "And start compiling. "Why do we have to compile this?" Oh, anyway, so, offtrack. Okay, so after those nine months, and then it's a six month internship, and after that it's nine months of specialization. And so there's different spec-- you can specialize in high-level, low-level, they'll work with you in whatever you, whatever the student, their interests are in. And you can do that either full-time student or do it part-time. Which most of the students that are in the first batch that started in January 2016, they're, most of them are, like, still working, are still working, and then they're doing their nine month specialization as, like, part-time students. >> Final question for you, Elaine. Share your personal thoughts on, as you're immersed in the coding and learning, you see the community, you meet some great people here, network expanding, what are you excited about going forward? As you look out there, as you finish it up and getting involved, what's exciting to you in the world ahead of you? What do you think you're going to jump into? What's popping out and revealing itself to you? >> I think coming to the conference and hearing Jim speak about just how diversity is important and also hearing from multiple speakers and sessions about the importance of collaboration and contributions, I just feel like Lennox and Open Source, this whole movement is just a really, it's a step in the right direction, I believe. And it's just, I think the recognition that by being diverse that we are going to be stronger for it, that is super exciting to me. >> John: Yeah. >> Yeah, and I just hope to be able to-- >> John: Yeah (mumbles) >> I mean, I know I'm going to be able to add to that soon. (laughs) >> Well, you certainly are. Thanks for coming on The Cube. Congratulations on your success. Thanks for coming, appreciate it. >> Elaine: Thank you, thank you. >> And this is The Cube coverage, live in LA, for Open Source Summit North America. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman. More live coverage after this short break. (upbeat music)

(quiet jazz) >> Announcer: Live from Los Angeles, it's theCUBE covering Open Source Summit North America 2017. Brought to you by the Linux Foundation and Red Hat. (upbeat techno music) >> Okay, welcome back, everyone, live in Los Angeles to theCUBE's exclusive coverage of the Open Source Summit in North America, I'm John Furrier. My cohost, Steve Miniman. Our next guest is Jono Bacon, who is the founder of Jono Bacon Consulting in the community. A great talk here-- >> Jono: Thank you. >> at Open Source Summit. Great to see you. >> Yeah, thank you for having me on. >> Congratulation on all your recent success, on the personal and business side. Congratulations, great to see you. So, bottom line, Open Source Summit is kind of powered by the Linux Foundation, but pretty significant accomplishment and State of the Union, if you will, calling an Open Source Summit, big tent event. What's your view on this? How do you explain to folks watching? Is this a new event, is it a combination of multiple events, certainly a great, great big tent, >> Jono: Yeah. >> cross pollination. Whatever you want to call it. But what is this event about? Share your opinion. >> I think it's interesting, and I don't work for the Linux Foundation, but I've worked very closely with them for a number of years. And I think what we've been seeing is that in the earlier days of open source, there was, you know, the Linux foundation have played a fairly key role in certain specific areas. And in recent years, they've become a real center of gravity around open source in a variety of different areas, from automotive to cloud and beyond. And obviously there's a ton of events that are happening all over the world. And the open source thing I think is interesting because it's really an umbrella event that's got four other events that are part of it. So the event that I was running, which we launched this time around, was the Open Community Conference, which is kind of like one thread of this broader event. So one of the things I like about it is is different events from my experience draw different types of audiences. The Linux Foundation events have traditionally brought a lot of professionals who work in the industry. In a similar way, that happens at OSCON as well. But I like that the events kind of become a little bit more organized and diversified into those four areas. And I think what happens then is you get a greater bandwidth of content and discussions that go with that. >> I think it's an interesting point of these other streams, if you will, kind of going into the big tent event. It's got an ecosystem vibe to it, cause you don't want to lose the specialty of the topics and interest at the events that matter for the audiences on a content basis and face-to-face communications. But it's interesting that they're taking this approach because, when you look at it, the scale that's coming, in open source generally, categorically, if you put all of the code together, it's exponentially growing. >> Jono: Oh, yeah. >> So, there's a flood coming, there's a big open source flood of code coming. So, I think it's time to think architecturally about the dams and the rivers and the flows. To your point, this is a super important point in history. >> Oh, it's without question. And one of the things that's interesting to me is in my work as a consultant, when I help companies to build communities, it's broken into a few different layers. For example, so one is a technology layer, like which of the lego bricks that you're going to choose to put together, and how do you click them together in different ways? And that's where I think the LF has become a real center of gravity around what those projects are and how to integrate. But the other thing that we're starting to see more and more of is the formalization of the software development lifecycle, which is, it's not nearly just writing code anymore. It's about automated testing and continuous delivery and deployment, and all these different pieces. So I think we're seeing a formalization of the Lego bricks, but also the instructions for how you click them together. And that's really important if we're going to broaden out this bubble. Because this is a bubble that we're in right now. This is full of invariably tech companies talking about technology. But when we get into the bigger enterprises, when we get into non-tech into the-- >> John: Blocking and tackling, the realities are there. >> And there is so much nuance wrapped up in open source that it's alien to the people outside of this world, that we need to build that better interface for that. >> And that's just putting some hardening around either software or process that there's some comfort and reliability to the users. >> I'll give you one example. Like one company that I was working with, who were a large hardware company, fairly unfamiliar with open source. And one of the first questions they asked me was, "What does success look like? We know what all these options are, we see all the things that people are talking about, but we don't know how to determine what success is." And I think even just that, it seems like an obvious thing to the people in this room, but it's not obvious to a lot of people who are new to consumer technology this way. >> They want to see a finish line or some KPI that's says, we're done! >> Jono: Exactly! >> Shipped! >> And also because this is technology that's built by a broad diverse community of people, you then, a lot of these organizations then say, "So, what is my expected social responsibility here?" So, like how do I participate in this world that I'm broadly unfamiliar with? To me it's like a hip hop guy who's trying to join a metal band. You know? (John laughs) It works differently. >> It's completely different genres of developers and also environments. So, what's your advice to customers? Because they have to navigate because the mainstream adoption of Linux, obviously, and now new projects as they graduate or come to fruition will be deployed. So there is an ops, the DevOps certainly is a movement we're seeing, we can agree on. But now I got to put it into production. I'm a bank or I'm an enterprise. Hey, I got some guys that are monitoring. We're not that active, but we're happy to use it, be a user. How do you talk to that customer? >> Jono: Right. >> The way which I try to approach it is is to break it into a few different areas. The first thing is to first of all make sure that everybody's got the same sense of what the problem is that you want to solve. One of the things that was most transformative to me when I started consulting was it's amazing how many people think they're solving the same problem, but they're actually on a completely different grade of the same problem. So to me, what I like to do, is I like to define what I call a set of key themes which are these are the big rocks that we want to target in a time frame, six months or a year, or whatever it might be. Particularly with, when you're either doing community strategy or development, or you're doing a level of open source, it's fundamentally cross-functional. It involves marketing, engineering, product, there are executive stakeholder requirements, and then there's the people on the ground who are delivering those, so getting those themes in place I think is critical. But then to me what's important next, is to break a broader strategy down into smaller, consumable pieces. I think one of the things where a lot of companies get stuck is they're aware of these different Lego bricks that are available to them. They're aware of some optimizations in terms of workflow, but it's such a huge thing to bring into an organization that invariable is already got a very, very, stodgy or very specific culture that they've got to somewhat unseat. So to me, you need that combination of permissive, top-down approach, which is invariably your exec saying we see value in this, but then you need to break the strategy and the execution down into smaller manageable pieces that a team can wrap their head around. >> We talked to the Cisco guy, Ed, and he was, we were talking about DevNet, a huge developer community for Cisco. DevNet Create was kind of their cloud-native group that they've put together, great little skunk works, worked out great. But those are two languages. It's two worlds. The semantics of what they're saying is the same thing, but the translation is needed. This seems to be a common thread within the DevOps community now that the rubber hits the road, and people see the obvious benefits of what is true private cloud or cloud native. So, how do you go ahead? You provide like a dictionary, and say, "Hey, here's the translation. Okay, he really means that." I mean, are you being more herding the cats, being a translator, or is the client further along than that in your mind? >> It varies, it does vary from company to company. And a chunk of this, at least from my experience, is there is a significant translation layer. One of the things I talked about in my keynote on Monday was I see collaboration ... When I do community strategy, but fundamentally, it really is organizational design. It's just outside of a company in some cases, and sometimes inside of a company. In an organization, you'll have a set of stakeholders making decisions, and then the people who've got to execute on those decisions. And there is often a massive translation layer between them. I run a conference called the Community Leadership Summit each year at OSCON, and every year a couple hundred community managers come along, and I hear the same story from a lot of them, which is, I joined this company, I started building out, I started doing my work and my manager wasn't happy. And to me it's because the execs are defining value that they want to see, but it's not getting translated into tatics, and invariably a lot of the folks who are coming into it-- >> John: Where their ROI calculations are-- >> Yeah, a lot of that's-- >> They're not seeing a real answer. They don't know what success looks like. >> And they come in, and they don't necessarily have the strategic background to internalize that requirement into a place that they can move it forward. So, you get this kind of, this impedance mismatch. So, a big chunk of what I tend to do is to really try to understand what those requirements are and to work across the organization to try and-- >> John: You're doing architecture? Like what would be organizational behavior architecture in the wild, but also an arbiter to the managers. It's looking good, it's like you're trying to the score of the game. You're keeping-- >> Jono: And some days as well, as I'm sure anyone who's watching this, will have seen this with the companies they work with, this isn't rocket science. You know, what someone says they want, this is going to sound incredibly patronizing, it's not meant to, but when someone says what they want, invariably what they actually want is not that thing. So for example, I was working with a company a couple of months ago and they were saying, "We just want growth. We absolutely want to grow as quickly as we can." And when I dug into it with their CEO, what they really wanted was brand recognition and acceptance. And those are two very different challenges that you got to approach there. >> John: Stu, get a word in, I'm sorry if I've taken all of it. >> Yeah, John's passionate about community if you can't tell. The question I have for you is, building a community takes time, and things are changing faster than ever. How do you help people manage that pace of change versus I want results? It seems strategy is something that is for today, and we're changing often. So, how do you manage that give and take of growing yet breaking? >> It's a great question. And again, I think it varies. To me, there's some fundamental pieces that are involved in the way that I, and I take one approach and other people will take different approaches, I'm certainly not the only person who's doing this. The approach that I like to take is is we first of all need to treat communities as a journey. I think a lot of people think we have a product or a service, let's get people interested, and it's seen as a series of individual interactions with individual people. Whereas the way I like to look at it is when that person discovers your product, your service, your framework, whatever it may be, there's a journey from how they learn about it, how they go up an on-ramp to get something done, how you get people making their first contribution or how they derive their first piece of value, and then how you incentivize and reward them to keep them moving along the journey. So to me I look at it as this zoomed-out birds-eye view of this journey that I want to craft. And then I like to break that down into small bite-sized pieces that form the strategy. But the other thing is, and this varies depending on the company, is to what level of transparency and openness you need to communicate with different people. So, for example, one of the first things I do with inner source when people bring in open source principles inside a company is to make sure we have weekly reports going out and we're updating the stakeholders, more specifically, on a regular cadence. Because in that kind of environment where there's an existing enterprise, we all see these like digital transformation consultants come in-- >> Oh god, it's a total gravy train. They make the bookings and the billings. Reminds me of the old ERP deployments. Write a big fat check, and it'd be like, all these consultants come in and make all the cash. >> I think a lot of people look around thinking, alright, Lunchbox, you'll be here for a year. You'll be gone then, all right, and we'll go on to the next thing now our CEO cares about. So to me it's like-- >> John: Well, the consulting is being disrupted. It's interesting, you're a contrarian in your world because you have a consulting firm, but the old model things used to be the next gig is get that next consulting gig, so you worked not to actually put yourself out of a job, which is where the client wants to get. And that's where Agile and cloud has come in. It's interesting is, this is where the work product is. You know what success is in that model. You can come in and say, look, we did our work, everything. You've got a community that's vibrant. You got operational, they operationalized your value. >> Jono: Yep. >> You don't need me anymore, unless you want me. So, it's one of those kinds of conversations. Your thoughts? >> I agree. And it's interesting you mentioned Agile. One of the things that I've noticed as well, and I'm sure lots of not just consultants but people notice this as well is there are, I think there are broadly two types of people in the world. I think there's people who take a very kind of organic and somewhat animated approach to how they do things. And then there's some people who really need a roadmap. They need to follow a plan. I think a lot of people who are building organizational design or building communities default to we need to create a process and a workflow so people can follow that and we can have a sense of order. I don't think most people naturally want to work like that. I think there's a reason why people don't stick with to-do lists. It's because people like to have a more organic way of working. And a good example of this, in my mind, is Agile. Some people will take Agile to the nth degree with story points and epics and a lot of that kind of stuff-- >> You serve the process, the process doesn't serve the objective. I mean, it's the classic effectiveness model. But, I mean, that's the whole point. I mean, you could foreclose opportunities if you're too structured. But yet you got to have some boundaries, let the ball bounce around. So, you kind of want both. What is the ideal in your mind? >> In my mind, the approach that I'm a big fan is an approach called munsing, which was a story of, I forget his name, there's a story of a guy back in like the 50s. And he basically owned a TV factory. And what he'd do is he'd go up to like an engineer who's building one of these big, bulky old TVs, and he'd basically pull out components until it stopped working. And then he'd put that last component in so it would be the minimum level of components for it to work. Ended up saving the company a ton of money. I like to take the same approach process. What's the minimum level that you need that gives people the creativity to be successful in a predictable way? So, like with Agile, these epics and stories and things like that, I think a lot of that stuff is just there to deal with crappy product managers, like people who aren't very good at manning your project. No process is going to deal with someone who's not good at organizing. >> You need to bring to me the right level of the human ingredient and the process is what keeps people ticking over-- >> The other thing too that I find in that area is people kind of redefine, or they maybe mischaracterize what outcome is. Everyone's outcome driven. Love that word. (Jono laughs) It's all about the outcome. In this case, the TV's got to work with a less amount of moving parts. >> Jono: Right. >> That's the outcome. And so, outcomes can be bastardized if you will, could be really mangled in its definition. How do you work with clients on trying to really temper and set the expectations on what the outcome is? Cause the manager still wants to know what the outcome is going to be. So, do you reverse engineer from there? How do you tackle that? >> Jono: It's interesting. A big chunk of it for me is just being realistic. There is no minimum amount of work that needs to be put in to achieve any kind of community. I think you can build a tiny community with one person. However, depending on the requirements and the goals, there's just certain things you have to do. And there's certain time and resources that are required. And also just expectations. Like one of the expectations that some people wrestle with I think is, if you're building a community they're either inside your organization or outside, it's only going to succeed if a broader set of people participate. You know, we see this trend where you hire a community manager and that person lives in a forum or a slack channel to build out the community. Doesn't work. >> John: Yeah. >> Because the people in that community want access to other people. >> This value creation mindset in communities. Value has to be a group dynamic. This individual contributions, I get that. But the group dynamic is critical. Not just a message board moderator. I mean, that's basically what you're saying. >> Jono: Exactly. >> That's a message board. >> Nobody wants to deal with >> John: That's a tool. >> the interface of the thing you care about. And that's the community manager. So, a chunk of this then is a different mindset in how people operate. One of my clients is a company called HackerOne. I wrapped up work with them a little while ago, and their CEO is this guy called Mårten Mickos who-- >> John: Yeah, Mårten's great CUBE alumni. >> Phenomenal. For me, he's one of the people I most respect in our industry. >> John: He's a great strategic thinker, understands community, knows tech. Great guy >> Jono: Amazing. >> One of the things that he said when he joined HackerOne was I want everybody in this company to know a hacker. Everybody's got to know our audience. Everybody's got to understand the needs, the desires, the insecurities, the worries, the dynamics, otherwise we can't build a community. It's not just hiring a person to interface to that. That's one of the trickiest things because, again, it takes time. >> John: It's alignment to the audience. >> Right >> John: This is classic. >> Ingratiating in and actually being cool. Aligning with them >> Right. And if it's done well it's really rewarding because I think people who ordinarily wouldn't see the fruits of their labor. >> Well, Jono, I want to get your thoughts as we wrap up the segment here on what's exciting you about potential new things that are coming around the corner. Obviously, we see the promise of blockchain which could have a great big application for communities. We're doing some things with it now that we're testing in our community around trying to create these new value networks. Certainly, there's new tooling coming out. Things like theCUBE and content and communities. New things are coming. The growth is going to be here which is going to create great new opportunities. >> Jono: Yeah. >> What are you excited about as you want to navigate the community landscape? Because the thesis is more people are coming in, more rivers of distinct audiences are going to want specialty but yet the broad market ... What are you excited about the community opportunity? From compensation to interaction to culture. What's your thoughts? >> There's a few things I'll subdivide it into things that relate to my bread and butter which is communities and things just more broadly in technology. The one thing I'm really excited about communities is I feel like the value proposition has become well understood, is not just in open source but outside with Proctor & Gamble, H&R Block, Harley Davidson, all these examples. Where people see the value in doing this work and doing it well. And that's great because I think we're improving the state-of-the-art of how we do this. One of the reasons why I got into this was I want my career to leave a fingerprint on structured, predictable ways in which we can do this as opposed to seeming magic science that a lot of people seem to think community is. >> John: Or a series of one-offs that are not understood or can't be operationalized or leveraged in any way. >> Jono: Yeah, exactly. From a technology perspective, there's a bunch of things. I'm really excited about crowdsource security, things like HackerOne, Bugcrowd, Synack, things like that. I think there's a lot of excitement in my mind around bringing open source into financial services. I think that's an industry that's ripe to be disrupted which is a sentence I never thought I'd ever say. Ripe to be disrupted. (John laughs) And then I'm also really excited about the work that's going on obviously in A.I., but the intersection of A.I. with kind of like voice control. Obviously, things such as Google Home and Alexa, but also things like Mycroft. I think blockchain is interesting. It's kind of less interesting to me. It's not really something I've really been following very closely, but I think it is. I think it's pretty neat. But then also just the formalization of the end-to-end software development lifecycle and how we're seeing, you know, GitHub was transformative in technology for a lot of companies. And now we're seeing GitHub as one piece, and you've got continuous delivery and continuous deployment. And also, we manage ideas, the project manager, all that kind of stuff. >> I think there's a lot of transformative ideas coming. And I think it's super exciting. Congratulations on all the great work you're doing. >> Jono: Thank you. Appreciate it. >> I just think that the self-governing community model that's now becoming mainstream people are starting to figure out how to balance that with the command and control top down and hierarchy job definition specifics, and balancing that. I think the self-governing open source model certainly prove that. And communities as a working example of what you can operationalize. >> It's exciting. >> And crowdsourcing just takes it to the consumer level. >> Right. >> Okay, it's working there too. Okay, great job. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you. >> John: Jono Bacon, >> John: Bacon Consulting. This is theCUBE. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman. More live coverage after this short break. (upbeat techno music)

(mid-tempo music) >> Announcer: Live, from Los Angeles, it's The Cube. Covering Open source Summit North America 2017. Brought to you by the Linux Foundation and Red Hat. >> Okay welcome back and we're live in Los Angeles for The Cube's exclusive coverage of the Open Source Summit North America. I'm John Furrier, my co-host Stu Miniman, Our next guest is Steve Pousty, who's the Director of Developer Advocacy for Red Hat, Cube alumni, we last spoke at the Cisco Devnet Create, which is their new kind of cloud-native approach. Welcome Back. >> Thank you, thank you, glad to be here. >> We're here at the Open Source Summit, which is a recognition that of all these kind of ... With LinuxCon, all these things, coming events, it's a big ten event, love the direction, >> Yeah Validation to what's already happened and the recognition of open source, where Linux is at the heart of all that, Red Hat also you guys are the Linux standard, and gold standard, but there's more- >> We like to think of it that way, but- >> But there's more than Linux on top of it now, so this is a recognition that open source is so much more. >> For sure, I'm mean you can even see ... Who would've thought that there'd be a whole huge hubbub about Facebook doing a separate license for their react libraries and all the interactions with Apache, the Apache Foundation. Open source is so much ... it's the mainstream now. Like, basically, it's very hard to release a proprietary product right now and come up with some justification about why you have to do it. >> And why, and can it even be as good. >> Steve: Right. >> There's two issues, justification and performance. >> Yeah, quality, all that stuff. And also, customers' acceptability of that. Like, "Oh wait, you mean I can't actually even see the code? "I can't modify the code, I can't pay you to modify the code "and share it with everybody else?" I think customers have come to a whole ... Users of open source stuff, it's so permeated now that I think it's hard to be in the market without ... I mean, look at everybody who's here. Some of the people that are here were some of the biggest closed source people before. >> John: Microsoft is here. >> Exactly. >> John: IBM is here, although they've always been open, they were big on Linux early on. >> Yes. >> But now you're seeing the ecosystem grow, so we see some scale coming, but there's still a lot of work that needs to get done. We see greatness, like Kubernetes and Serverless offering great promise and hope for either multi-cloud workflow, workload management, all those cool stuff. But there's still some work to be done. >> Steve: For sure. >> What's your take on progress, where are we, what's the ... some of those under the hood things that need to get worked on? >> Well so, progress, I think ... the funny part is our expectations have changed so much over time that, so Kubernetes is about a little over two years old, and we're all like, oh it's moving so s-- why is it not doing this, this, and this? Whereas if this was like 10 years ago, the rate at which Kubernetes is moving is phenomenal. So, basically, every quarter there is a new release of Kubernetes, and we basically built OpenShift as a distribution on top of Kubernetes, and so we're delivering to our customers every quarter as well, and a bunch of them are like, "This is too fast, this is too fast, "like, we can't integrate all these changes." But at the same time, they say, "But don't slow down." Because, "Oh, next release we're going to get this thing "that we want and we know we want to go to that release." So, I think Kubernetes definitely has more growing room, but the thing is, how much it's already being seen as the standard, it's the ... so the way I like to talk about it, and I'll talk about this in my talk later, I think for Red Hat, Kubernetes is the cloud Linux kernel. It's the exact same story all over again. It's this infrastructure that everybody's going to build on. Now there are people who are standing up OpenStack on Kubernetes, or on OpenShift. So basically saying, "I don't want to install and manage "my Openstack, it's too difficult. "Give me some JSON and some components "and I'll just use Kubernetes as my operating plane." >> We saw Kubernetes right out of the gates, Stu and I, at the first Cube-Con, we were present at creation, and just on the doorstep of that thing just unfolded, and we saw the orchestration piece is huge, but I want to get your take if you can share with the audience, why Kubernetes has taken the world by storm. Why is it so relevant? What's all the hubbub about with Kubernetes? Share your opinion. >> Okay, so remember ... okay so this is a red shirt, and remember I work at Red Hat, so this obviously a biased opinion. I want to be up front about that. >> John: In your biased opinion ... >> Right, well as opposed to a neutral opinion, right, we definitely, so, I say that in front of my audiences just so that ... go do your own research, but from my perspective and what I've seen in the market place, there was a lot of orchestration and scheduling out there, then it kind of narrowed down, there's three players I would say right now. The three players all end with Kubernetes, but I just started with it (laughs). There's Kubernetes, there is Mesosphere, and there's Docker Swarm. I see those as being the three that are out there right now. And I think the reason we're ... So I won't talk about the others, but I see those ... Why Kubernetes has won is, one, community. So they have done a great job of being upstream, working with all people, being a very open community, open to working with others, not trying to make things just so it benefits Google's business but to benefit everybody. The other reason is the size of that community, right, everybody working together. The third is I think they, so some of it's luck, right? >> John: Yeah, timing is everything. >> Timing is everything. >> John: You're on a wave, and you're on your board and a big wave comes, you surf it, right? >> That's exactly, so I think what happened with Mesosphere is they're a great scheduler, and a lot of people said they were the best scheduler to start with. But they didn't really focus on containers to start with and it seems like they missed ... Like, Kubernetes said, "No, it's all about containers "and we're going to focus on container workload." And that's right where everybody else was. And so it was like, "I don't want to write "all that extra stuff from Mesosphere. "I want to do it with Kubernetes 'cause that's containers." And so that's the bit of luck lining up with the market. So I'd say it's the community but also recognizing that it's about containers to start with and containers are kind of taking over. >> Yeah, Steve, take us inside containers. You're wearing a shirt that says "Linux is Containers" on the front, if our audience could see the back it says "Containers are Linux." >> Steve: Exactly. >> Of course, Red Hat heavily involved. You're in the weeds, dealing with things that we're doing to make stability of containers, make sure it works in other environments. Tell us some of the things you're working on, some of the projects, and the like. >> So, some of the projects I'll be showing today, one is based off of OpenScap, Open S-C-A-P, it's another open consortium for scanning for vulnerabilities. We've written something called Atomic Scan, so it can take any OpenScap provider, plug it in to Atomic Scan, and you can scan a container image without having to actually run it. So, you don't actually have to start it up, it actually just goes in. The other thing I'm going to be talking about today is Bilda, this is part of the CNCF stuff. This is the ability to actually build a runC-compatible container without ever using Docker or MOBI. The way, a totally different approach to it, what you basically do is you say, "I want this container from this other container, or from blank," then you have a container there and then you actually mount the file system. So rather than actually booting a container and doing all sorts of steps in the container itself, you actually mount the file system, do normal operations on your machine like it was your normal file system, and then actually commit at the end. So it's another way for some of our customers that really like that idea of how they want to build and manage containers. But also, there's a bunch more. There's Kryo, which is the common runtime interface, and the implementation of it, so that Kubernetes can now run on an alternative container technology. This is Kryo, it's agnostic. If you looked at Kelsey Hightower's latest "Kubernetes and Anger," I think, or "Kubernetes the Hard Way" or something. His latest is building it all on Kryo. So rather than running on Docker, it runs ... All your container running happens on Kryo. I'm not trying to say, well of course I think it's better, but I think the point that we're really seeing is, by everything moving in to CNCF and the Linux Foundation and getting around standards, it's really enabled the ecosystem to take off. Like, TekTonic and CoreOS have done that with Rocket. We're going to see a lot more blossoming. The fertilizer has been applied, back from our ... >> Yeah, CNCF of two years old, I mean their fertilizer down big time, you got the manure and all the thousand flowers are blooming from that. >> Yeah, between Prometheus, I mean just, Prometheus, Istio, there's just ... I can't even keep track of it all. >> So Steve, you were talking earlier. Customers are having a hard time with that quarterly release. >> Steve: Yes. >> How do they keep up with all these projects, I mean you know, we rattled through all of 'em. You've got 'em all down pat, but the typical customer, do they need to worry about what do they have to focus on, how do they keep up with the pace change, how do they absorb all of this? >> Okay so it highly depends on the customer. There are some customers who are not our customers, I'll just say users, who are advanced enough on their own, who they're out there basically just, they're consuming the tip of what's coming out of CNCF. All that stuff, and they're picking and choosing and they're doing that all. For Red Hat, a lot of our customers are, "I like all that technology, you're our trusted advisor, "when you release it as a product "and I know I can sit on it for three years, "because you'll support it for at least three years, "maybe five years, then I'm going to start to consume it "and you'll actually probably put it into a more usable form for me." 'Cause a lot of the upstream stuff isn't necessary made direct for consumption. >> How are you guys dealing with the growth prospects. We've been talking about this all morning, this has been the big theme of this show is, not only just the renaming of a variety of different events, LinuxCon, but Open Source Summit is an encapsulation of all the projects that are blossoming across the board. So, the scale issues, and as a participant, Red Hat, >> Steve: Yes. >> Your biased opinion, but you're also incentive and you guys are active in the community. The growth that's coming is going to put pressure on the system. It may change the relationship between communities and vendors and how they're all working together, so again, to use the river analogy, there's a lot of water going to be pumping through the system. And so how's that going to impact the ecosystem, is it going to be the great growth that could flood everything, is there a potential for that, I mean you're an ecosystem guy, so the theory is there, it's like, Jim's stepping up with the Linux Foundation. I talked to him yesterday and he recognizes it. >> Steve: Yeah. >> But he also doesn't want to get in the way, either. >> Steve: No, no, no- >> So there's a balance of leadership that's needed. Your thoughts. >> So, I mean I think one of the things ... So I mean you know the Linux kernel has its benevolent dictator, and that works well for that one community, but then you'll see something like Kubernetes, where it's much more of a community base, there is no benevolent dictator for life on Kubernetes. I think one of the nice things that the Linux Foundation has done, and which Red Hat has acknowledged is, you know, let the community govern the way that works for that community. Don't try to force necessarily one model on it. In terms of the flood part that you were talking about, I think, if you want to go back to rivers, there's cycles in terms of 10 year floods, 100 year floods, I think what we're seeing right now is a big flood, and then what'll happen out of this is some things will shake out and other things won't. I don't expect every vendor that's here to be here next year. >> And find the high ground, I mean, I mean the numbers that Jim shared in his opening keynote is by 2026, 400 million libraries are going to be out there versus today's 64 roughly million. >> Steve: Right. >> You know, Ed from Cisco thinks that's understated, but now there's more code coming in, more people, and so a new generation is coming on board. This is going to be the great flood in open source. >> I also think it's a great opportunity for some companies. I mean, I'm not high enough in Red Hat to know what we're doing in that space, but it's also a great opportunity for some companies to help with that. Like, I think, that's one of the other things that Linux Foundation did was set up the Javascript Foundation. That is a community that-- >> But that doesn't have Node.js, it's a little bit separate. >> No, I know, but think-- >> You're talking about the js, okay. >> But I'm talking about, but if you think about the client-side javascript, forget Node. Just think about client-side javascript and how many frameworks are coming up all the time, and new libraries. >> Stu: That's a challenge. >> So I think actually that community could be one that could be good to maybe gain some lessons from, as things happen more in open source. I think there are other open source communities. Like, I'm wondering like GNOME-- >> But the feedback on the js community is that there's a lot of challenges in the volume of things happening. >> And that's coming for us though, right? >> Yeah. >> That's what's coming, that's what's going to come for this larger ecosystem, so I think maybe there's market opportunity, maybe there's new governance models, maybe there's ... I mean, this is where innovation comes from. There's a new problem that's come, it's a good problem. >> Your next point of failure is your opportunity to innovate. >> Exactly, and it's a good problem to have, right, as opposed to, we have too few projects, and we don't really, no one really likes them. Instead, now it's like, we've got so many projects and people are contributing, and everybody's excited, how do we manage that excitement? >> So another dynamic that we're observing, and again we're just speculating, we're pontificating, we're opining ... is fashion. Fashion, fashionable projects. Never fight fashion, my philosophy is. In marketing, don't fight the fashion. >> Steve: Right. >> CNCF is fashionable right now, people love it. It's popular, it's trendy, it's the hip new night club if you will in open source. Other projects are just as relevant. So, relevance and trending sometimes can be misconstrued. How do you guys think about that, because this is a dynamic, everyone wants to go to the best party. There a fear of missing out, I'm going to go check out Kubernetes, but also relevance matters. >> Yes. >> John: Your thoughts. >> So I've seen this discussion internally in engineering all the time, when we're talking about, 'cause you know OpenShift is trying to build a real distribution, not like, "Oh here is Kubernetes," but a real distribution. Like when Red Hat ships you the Linux, gives you Linux, we don't just say, "Here's the Linux kernel, have a good time." We put a whole bunch of stuff around it, and we're trying to do that with Kubernetes as well, so we're constantly evaluating all the like, "Should we switch to Prometheus now, "when's the time to switch to Prometheus? "Oh it's trending really hot. "Oh but does it give us the features?" >> John: It's a balance. >> It's a balance, it's going to have to come down to, I hate to say it-- >> It's a community, people vote with their code, so if something has traction, you got to take a look at it. >> But I would say, and this has been going on for a while, and I've seen other people talk about it, if you are the lead on an open source project, and you want a lot of community, you have to get into marketing. You can't just do-- >> John: You got to market the project. >> You got to, and not in the nasty term of market, which is that I'm going to lie to you and like, what a lot of developers think about like, "Oh I'm just going to give you bullshit and lie to you, "and it's not going to be helpful." No, market in terms of just getting your word out there so at least people know about it. Lead with all your-- >> John: Socialize it. >> Yeah. I mean, that's what you got to get it, so there is a lot of chatter now. How do you get it noticed as a Twitter person, right? You have to do some, it's the same, it's going to be more like that for open source projects. >> John: So we're doing our share to kind of extract the signal from some of the noise out there, and it's great to talk to you about it because you help give perspective. And certainly Red Hat, you're biased, that's okay, you're biased. Now, take your Red Hat off. >> Okay. >> Hat off. Take your Red Hat hat off >> Steve: Propaganda hat off. >> and put your neutral hat on. An observation of Open Source Summit, I'll see that name change kind of significance in the sense it's a big ten event. This event here, what's your thoughts on what it means? >> Hey c'mon Steve, you've got a PhD in ecology, so we want some detailed analysis as to how this all goes together. >> I mean it's good marketing, Open Source Summit, good name change, little bit broader. >> I'm actually glad for it. So, I've gone to some other smaller events, and I actually like this, because it was hard for me to get to the smaller events, or to get quite enough people. Like this actually builds a critical mass, and more cross-fertilization, right, so it's much easier for me to talk to containers to car people. 'Cause automotive Linux is here as well, right? >> John: You can't avoid it, you see 'em in the hallways, you can say, "Hey, let's chat." >> "Let's talk about that stuff," whereas in the small ... So, you know, this is more about conferences. There's a good side and a bad side to everything, just like I tell my kids, "When you pick up a stick, you also have to pick up the other end of the stick." You can't just like have, "Oh this is a great part," but you don't get the bad part. So the great part about this, really easy to see a lot of people, see a lot of interesting things that are happening. Bad part about this, it's going to be hard, like if this was just CNCF, everybody here would be CNCF, all the talks would be CNCF, it's like you could deep dive and really go. So, I think this is great that they have this. I don't think this gets, should get rid of smaller, more focused events. >> Well at CubeCon, our CubeCon, the CNCF event in Austin, we'll be there for The Cube. That will be CNCF all the time. >> Steve: Exactly. I'm glad they're still doing that. >> So they're going to have the satellite event, and I think that's the best way to do it. I think a big ten event like this is good because, this is small even today, but with the growth coming, it'll be convention hall size in a matter of years. >> Well, exactly, and the fact that you made it into a big, and the fact that you've made it into this cohesive event, rather than going to somebody and saying, "Hey, sponsor these five events." Like, No. Sponsor this one big event, and then we'll get most of the people here for you. >> It's also a celebration, too. A lot of these big ten events are ... 'Cause education you can get online, there are all kinds of collaboration tools online, but when you have these big ten events, one of the rare things is it's the face to face, people-centric, in the moment, engagement. So you're learning in a different way. It's a celebration. So I think open source is just too important right now, that this event will grow in my opinion. >> Steve: For sure. >> Bring even thousands and thousands of people. >> I mean, another way-- >> John: 30,000 at some point, easily. >> Yeah, I think definitely it's theirs to lose, let's put it that way. >> John: (laughing) I'll tell that to Jim "Hey, don't screw it up!" >> Don't screw it up. I think the way that you could almost think of this is OSS-Con, right, instead of Comic-Con, this is like, this can become OSS-Con, which is like, they should probably ... In the same way that the Kubernetes Foundation works and grows with a lot of other people, it would be great if they could bring in other Foundations as well to this. I know this is being run by the Linux, but it'd be great if we could get some Apache in here, some Eclipse in here, I mean that would just be-- >> John: A total home run. >> Those foundations bringing it in-- >> That would truly make it an open source summit. >> Yeah, exactly, as opposed to the World Series that's only in the United States. >> Yeah. (laughing) >> Although you know, I was at a hotel recently, and they had baseball on, it was little league baseball though. Their World Series is actually, Little League World Series is actually the World Series. >> John: It's a global World Series. >> Yeah, like their-- >> John: It's the world. >> Yeah, as opposed to the MLB, right? >> Alright, Steve, great to have you on, any final thoughts on interactions you've had, things you've learned from this event you'd like to share and pass on? >> No, I just think the space is great, I'm really excited to be in it. I'm starting to move a little bit more up to the application tier at my role at the company and I'm excited about that, to actually ... So I've been working down at the container tier, and orchestration tier for a while, and now I'm excited to get back to like, "Well now let's actually build some cool stuff "and see what this enables on the up--" >> And DevOps is going mainstream, which is a great trend, you're starting to see that momentum beachhead on the enterprises, so-- >> Oh, one takeaway message, for microservices people, please put an Ops person on your microservice team. Usually they start with the DBA, and then they say the middle person and the front-end people. I really want to make sure that they start including Ops in your microservice teams-- >> John: And why is that, what'd you learn there? >> Well because if you're going to do microservices, you're going to be, the team's going to end up doing Ops-y work. And it's kind of foolish not to bring in someone who already knows ... The reason you want all the team together is because they're going to own that. And you also want them to share knowledge. So, if I was on a microservice team, I would definitely want an Ops person teaching me how to do Ops for our stuff. I don't want to reinvent that myself. >> You got to have the right core competencies on that team. >> Steve: Yeah. It's like having the right people in the right position. >> Steve: Exactly. >> Skill player. >> Steve: Yeah, exactly. Okay we're here live in Los Angeles, The Cube's coverage of Open Source Summit North America. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman. More live coverage after this short break. (electronic music)

(cheerful music) >> Announcer: Live from Los Angeles, it's theCUBE! Covering Open Source Summit North America 2017. Brought to you by The Linux Foundation and Red Hat. >> Welcome back, and we're live here in Los Angeles. This is theCUBE's special coverage of Open Source Summit North America. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman. Two days of wall-to-wall coverage. Our next guest, Ed Warnicke, who is a distinguished consulting engineer with Cisco. Welcome to theCUBE. >> Glad to be here! >> Thanks for coming on. Love to get into it. We love infrastructure as code. We love the cloud developers. The young generation loves it. Making things easy to use all sounds great, but there's still work to get done. The networking... So what's going on here at the Open Source? So this is the big tent event where there's a lot of cross-pollination around projects. Obviously the networking side, you guys at Cisco are doing your share. Give us the update. Networking is still a lot more work to be done. It's a very strategic part of the equation. Certainly making it easier up above makes it programmable. >> Yeah, you have to make the networking invisible even to the DevOps layer. There are certain things that you need from the network. They need isolation and reachability. They need service discovery and service routing. But they don't want to have to think about it. They don't want to be burdened with understanding the nitty gritty details. They don't want to know what subnet they're on, they don't want to have to worry about ACL's, they don't want to think about all of that. And the truth is, there's a lot of work that goes into making the network invisible and ubiquitous for people. And in particular, one of the challenges that we see arising as the world moves more cloud-native, as the microservices get smaller, as the shift happens toward serverless, as Kubernetes is coming on with containers, is that the network is really becoming the run time. And that run time has the need to scale and perform like it never has before. So the number of microservices you'd like to put on a server keeps going up, and that means you need to be able to actually handle that. The amount of traffic that people want to push through them continues to go up. So your performance has to keep up. And that brings a lot of distinct challenges, particularly when you're trying to achieve those in systems that were designed for a world where you had maybe two NIC's on the box, where you weren't really thinking when the original infrastructure was built about the fact that you were actually going to have to do a hell of a lot of routing inside the server because you now have currently hundreds, but hopefully someday thousands and tens of thousands of microservices running there. >> Ed, you know, I think when we've been talking about the last 15 or 20 years or so, I need to move faster with my deployment. It always seemed that networking was the thing that held everything up. It's like, okay, wait, when I virtualized, everything's great and everything, and I can just spit up a VM and do that. Oh, but I need to wait for the network to be provisioned. What are the things you've been working on, what open source projects? There's a lot of them out there helping us to really help that overall agility of work today. >> Absolutely. So one of the things I'm deeply involved in right now is a project called FD.io, usually pronounced Fido, because it's cute. And it means we can give away puppies at conferences. It's great. What FD.io is doing, is we have this core technology called VPP that gives you incredibly performant, incredibly scalable networking purely in user space. Which means from a developer velocity point of view, we can have new features every three months. From an extensibility point of view, you can bring new network features as separate plugins you drop as .so's into a plugin directory instead of having to wait for the kernel to rev on your server. And the revving process is also substantially less invasive. So if you need to take a microservice network as a user space thing and rev it, it's a restart of a process. You're talking microseconds, not 15-minute reboot cycles. You're talking levels of disruption where you don't lose your TCP state, where you don't lose any of those things. And that's really crucial to having the kind of agility that you want in the network. And when I talk about performance and scalability, I'm not kidding. So one of the things we recently clocked out with VPP was being able to route a terabyte per second of traffic with millions of routes in the forwarding tables on commodity servers with no hardware existence at all. And the workloads are starting to grow in that direction. It's going to take them a while to catch up, but to your point about the network being the long pull, we want to be far ahead of that curve so it's not the long pull anymore. So you can achieve the agility that you need in DevOps and move innovative products forward. >> Ed, one of the things that comes up all the time, I wanted to get your reaction to this because you're an important part of it, is developers say, look, I love DevOps. And even ops guys are saying, we want to promote DevOps, so there's a mind meld there if you will. But then what they don't want is a black box. They want to see debugging, and they want to have ease of manageability. So I don't mind pushing dev, if I'm an ops guy, send the dev down, but they need a path of visibility. They need to have access to debug fast. Get access to some of those things. What do you see as gates if you will, that we got to get through to make that seamless and clean right now? Obviously Kubernetes, lot of stuff going on with orchestration. And containers are providing a path. But still, the complaint and nervousness is okay, you can touch and program the infrastructure, but if something happens, you're going to be reactive. >> Yeah, that gets exactly to the point. Because the more invisible the network is, the more visibility you need when things go wrong. And for general operational use. And one of the cool things that's happening in FD.io around that, is number one, it's industrial scale. So you have all sorts of counters and telemetry information that you need from an historical point of view in networks to be able to figure out what's going on. But beyond that, there's a whole lot of innovation that's been happening in the network space that has yet to trickle down all the way to the server edge. A really classic example on the visibility front has to do with in-band iOAM. So we now have the technology, and this is present today in VPP, to be able to say, hey, I would like an in-band trace on the flow though the network of this flow for this customer who's giving me a complaint, where I can see hop by hop through the network including in the edge where VPP is, what's the latency between hops? What path it actually passed through. And there's even a feature there where you could say, at each hop, please send the packet capture at that hop to a third-party point where I can collect it so I can look at it in something like Wireshark. So you can look in Wireshark and say, okay I see where this went into that node and came out that node this way. Node by node by node. I don't know how much more visibility than that is actually physically possible. And that's one of the kinds of things that the velocity of features that you have in VPP has made very possible. That's the kind of thing that would take a long time to work into the traditional development line for networking. >> What's the Cisco internal vibe right now? Because we covered the DevNet Create event that Susie Wee put on, which was kind of like a cloud-native cool event. Kind of grassroots, kind of guerrilla. I love the mojo there. But then you've got the DevNet community at Cisco, which is a robust killer developer community on the Cisco side. How are those worlds coming together? I can imagine that the appetite for the Cisco DevNet teams, the DevNet developer community, is looking at cloud-native as an opportunity. Can you share some insight into what's the sentiment, what's the community vibe, what's going on? For folks that just got to run the networks, I mean this is serious stuff. In the past, they've been like, cloud-native, when you're ready we'll get there. But now there seems to be an onboarding of cloud-native. Talk about the dynamic. >> There has to be, because cloud-native won't wait. And there's a lot of things that the network can do to help you as the run time. The iOAM example is one, but there are a ton more. Again, cloud-native won't wait. They will find a way, and so you have to be able to bring those features at the pace at which cloud-native proceeds. You can't do it on six-month product cycles. You can't do it on 12-month product cycles. You have to be able to respond point by point as things more forward. A good example of this is a lot of the stuff that's happening with server meshes in Insteon. Which is coming really fast. Not quite here, but coming really fast. And for that, the real question is, what can the network do for DevOps? Because there's a synergistic relationship between DevOps and NetOps. >> So you were saying... Just to try to get at the point. So yes, are you seeing that the DevNet community is saying hey we love this stuff? Because they're smart, they know how to adapt. Moving from networks to DevOps. To me it seems like they're connecting the dots. You share some-- Are they, yes no maybe? >> They're absolutely connecting the dots, but there's a whole pipeline with all of this. And DevNet is at the short pointy end where it touches the DevOps people. But to get there, there's a lot of things that have to do with identifying what are the real needs, getting the code written to actually do it, figuring out the proper innovations, engaging with open source communities like Kubernetes so that they're utilized. And by the time you get to DevNet, now we're at the point where you can explain them to DevOps, where they can use them really cleanly. One of the other things is, you want it to come through transparently. Because people want to be able to pick their Kubernetes Helm charts off the web, take the collection of containers for the parts of their application they don't want to have to think about, at least right now, and have it work. So you have to make sure you're supporting all the stuff that's there, and you have to work to be able to take advantage of those new features in the existing API's. Or better yet, just have the results of those API's get better without having to think about new features. >> So they're in great shape. It's not a collision, it's not friction. >> No, no no. >> It's pretty much synergistic. Network guys get the DevOps equation. >> No, we get the DevOps equation, we get the need. There is a learning process for both sides. We deeply need each other. Applications without networking are completely uninteresting. And this is even more true in microservices where it's becoming the run time for the network. On the same side, networks without applications are completely uninteresting because there's no one to talk. And what's fascinating to me is how many of the same problems get described in different language and so we'll talk past each other. So DevOps people will talk about service discovery and service routing. And what they're really saying is, I want a thing, I don't want to have to think about how to get to it. On the network side, for 15 years now, we've been talking about identifier/locator separation. Basically the having an IP address for the thing you want, and having the ability to transparently map that to the location where that thing is without having to... It's the classic renumber your network problem. They're at a very fundamental level the same problem. But it's a different language. >> The game is still the same. There's some language nuances that I think I see some synergies. I see people getting it. It's like learning two languages. Okay, the worlds come together. It's not a collision. But the interesting thing is networking has always been enabling opportunity. This is a fundamental nuance. If you can get this right, it's invisible, as you said. That's the end game. >> Absolutely. That's really what you're looking for. You want invisibility in the normal mode, and you want total transparency when something has to be debugged. The classic example with networks is, when there's a network problem it's almost never the network. It's almost always some little niggle of configuration that went wrong along the way. And so you need that transparency to be able to figure out okay, what's the point where things broke? Or what's the point where things are running suboptimally? Or am I getting the level of service that I need? Am I getting the latency I need, and so forth. And there's been a tendency in the past to shorthand many of those things with networking concepts that are completely meaningless to the underlying problem. People will look at subnets, and say for the same subnet, we should have low latency. Bullshit. I mean basically, if you're on the same subnet, the guy could be on the other end of the WAN in the modern era with L2 overlays. So if you want latency, you should be able to ask for a particular latency guarantee. >> It felt to me that it took the networking community a while to fix things when it came to virtualization. (Ed laughs) but the punch line is, when it comes to containers, and what's happening at Kubernetes, it feels like the networking community is rallying a lot faster and getting ahead of it. So what's different this time? You've got kind of that historical view on it. Are we doing better as an industry now, and why is it? >> So a couple of things. The Kubernetes guys have done a really nice job of laying out their networking API's. They didn't get bogged down in the internal guts of the network that no DevOps guy ever wants to have to see. They got really to the heart of the matter. So if you look at the guarantees that you have in Kubernetes, what is it? Every pod can talk to every other pod at L3. So L2 isn't even in the picture. Which is beautiful, because in the cloud, you need to worry about subnets like you need a hole in the head. Then if you want isolation, you specify a network policy. And you don't talk about IP addresses when you do that. You talk about selectors on labels for pods, which is a beautiful way to go about it. Because you're talking about things you actually care about. And then with services, you're really talking about how do I discover the service I want so I never have to figure out a pod IP? The system does it for me. And there are gaps in terms of there being things that people are going to be able to need to do that are not completely specified on those API's yet. But the things they've covered have been covered so well, and they're being defended so thoroughly, that it's actually making it easier because we can't come in and introduce concepts that harm DevOps. We're forced to work in a paradigm that serves it. >> Okay, great. So this'll be easy, so we'll be ready to tackle serverless. What's that going to mean for the network? >> Serverless gets to be even more interesting because the level of agility that you want in your network goes up. Because you can imagine something in serverless where you don't even want to start a pod until someone has made a request. So there's an L7 piece that has to be dealt with but then you have to worry about the efficiency of how do you actually move that TCP session to the actual instance that's come up for serverless for that thing, and how do you move it to the next thing? Because you're working at an L7, where from the client's point of view, they think it's all the same server, but it's actually been vulcanized across all these microservices. And so you have to find an efficient way of making that transparent that minimizes the degree to which you have to hairpin through things all over the cluster because that just introduces more latency, less throughput, more load on the cluster. You've got to be able to avoid that. And so, by being able to bring sophisticated features quickly to the data plain with something like FD.io and VPP, you can actually start peeling those problems off progressively as serverless matures. Because the truth of the matter is, no one really knows what those things are going to look like. We all like to believe we do, but you're going to find new problems as you go. It's the unknown unknowns that require the velocity. >> So it sounds like you're excited about serverless, though. >> Ed: Usually, yes, definitely. >> So I love serverless too, and I always talk about it. So what is in your opinion the confusion? There are some people who are like, oh it's bullshit. I don't think it is personally. I think it's nirvana. I think it's what people want, what most developers want. There's a server behind it. It's not serverless per se. It's just from a developer standpoint, you don't have to provision hardware. >> Or containers, or VM's, or any of that. >> I personally think it's a good thing. Is it just a better naming convention? Give the people, what's the nuance? Why are people confused? >> I think it's much more fundamental than just the naming convention. Because historically, if you look at the virtualization of workloads, every movement we've had to date has been about some workload run time technology. VM's were about virtual machines. Containers are about containers to run technology. When you get to microservices and serverless, we've made the leap from talking about the underlying technology that most developers don't care about to talking about the philosophy that they do. >> Their run time is their app. Their run time assembly is their code sandwich, not to say the network. >> Just as in serverless, I don't think anyone doubts that the first run of serverless is going to be built on containers. But the philosophy is completely divorced for them. So I'll give you an example. One of the things that we have in VPP is we have an ultra high performance, ultra high scalability userspace TCP stack. We're talking the kind of thing that can trivially handle ten million simultaneous connections with 200,000 new connections coming in every second. And right now, you can scope that to an isolation scope of a container. But there's no reason, with the technology we have, you can't scope it all the way down to a process. So you control the network access at the level of a process. So there's a lot of headroom to go even smaller than containers, even lighter weight than containers. But the serverless philosophy changes not a wit as you have that improvement come in. >> That's beautiful. Ed, thanks so much for coming on theCUBE. We really appreciate your perspective. I'd like you to get one final word in to end the segment. Describe what's happening here because the OS Summit, or the Open Source Summit, is the first of its kind, a big tent event. What's your take on it? What's the purpose of the event? What's your experience? Share with the folks who aren't here what this event is all about. >> It's really exciting, because as much as we love The Linux Foundation, and as much as we've all enjoyed things like LinuxCon in the past, the truth is, for years it's been bleeding beyond just Linux. I don't see the OS Summit so much as a shift in focus, as a recognition of what's developed. Last year we had the Open Source Summit here. We just called it LinuxCon. The year before we had the Open Source Summit here. We just called it LinuxCon. And so what's really happening is, we're recognizing what is. There's actually no new creation happening here. It's the recognition of what's evolved. >> And that is open source as a tier one reality that goes way beyond Linux, which is by the way super valuable at the kernel. >> Ed: Oh, we all love Linux. >> All Linux apps... The only apps are Linux apps. But it's a bigger thing. The growth and scale that's coming is unprecedented. I think a lot of people still are pitching themselves, Stu and I were commenting, that what's coming is going to change the face of software development for generations to come. There's an exponential scale of software libraries coming on board. Up to 400 million was forecast by 2026? >> That sounds conservative to me. (laughs) >> You think so? Well, I mean, just to get the scale. So there's going to be some leadership opportunities for the community, in my opinion. >> Absolutely. And this is where the Open Source Summit actually... I mean, words matter because they shape the way we think about things. So where I think the shift to the Open Source Summit has huge value is that it starts to shift the thinking into this broader space. It's not just a recognition of what's happened. It's a new load of software here for the community. >> This is not a marking then, it's a recognition of what's actually happening. I love that quote. Open Source Summit, brilliant move by The Linux Foundation. Create a big tent event for cross-pollination, sharing of ideas. This is the ethos of open source. Ed, thanks so much for coming on theCUBE. This is theCUBE with live coverage from the Open Source Summit in North America, formerly LinuxCon and all the other great events here in Los Angeles. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman. More live coverage after this short break. 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(upbeat music) >> Narrator: Live from Los Angeles, it's theCUBE, covering Open Source Summit North America 2017, brought to you by The Linux Foundation and Red Hat. >> Hello there and welcome to our special exclusive SiliconANGLE Media CUBE coverage here in Los Angeles, California, for the Open Source Summit North America. I'm John Furrier, my co-host, Stu Miniman, for the two days of wall-to-wall coverage, this is day two of our coverage of what's going on in the Open Source world as the Linux Foundation consolidates their shows into a big tent event. This is the inaugural event of now consolidated, a bunch of little shows come together. This is the big show where the Linux Foundation brings their entire communities together to talk and cross-pollinate with Jim Zemlin, the Executive Director, as they outline that. Stu, we're in our kickoff of day two, we're going to do some analysis and commentary, but before we start I want to get your thoughts on just day one. Yesterday we had a lot of guests, a lot of activities going on at night, we kind of divided and conquered. What did you find out? >> Yeah so John you'd done some coverage of LinuxCon a couple of years ago, it's my first time coming to this show. We do a lot of Open Source coverage with theCUBE's over the years, so coming in it was like, okay, what are we going to be talking about, what's the vibe? And being a big tent event, you know, I was a little surprised to see, I mean, the conversation's the same that we've been hearing the last year. Kubernetes, kind of the big wave that's coming in, not just in Open Source, but really the conversation in cloud, and really was kind of the top issue that kind of containerization, the new way of architecting things, you know, Linux absolutely is down there underneath, and majorly important but, you know, it seems to be that rallying around everything Kubernetes. MesosCon's right next door, and we said two years ago you never would have thought that, Kubernetes, that Mesos would be saying, you know, the best place to run Kubernetes is on DCOS. You know, it was the container wars, the orchestration wars, all those things. Kubernetes really leading the charge there, and it really fed into a lot of the conversations we had here. And in our conversations, like with Christine Corbett, and in some of the keynotes this morning, really talking about the power of collaboration, community, you know, stuff like that, we were passionate about John. >> Yeah, I mean, Stu, here's my take on the big story coming out of L.A. for this event. And I think the top line story is this. The Open Source community has had so much success going in the early days and depending which generation you want to call it, you know, we're a little bit older, old school, maybe fourth generation, you can argue the point but here's the bottom line. The big story is that the Linux Foundation, Linux apps, are everywhere, it's a global standard, it is happening. And the scale of which the growth that's going to be coming is unprecedented, and I think for the first time in the history of the computer industry, you're seeing a pause. You're seeing a moment of excitement from the executive director, the Linux Foundation, the board members, and the participants in the community who are realizing, holy shit, this is going to grow very huge. And Open Source is going to go to a whole 'nother growth level, it's going to be exponential in scale, and you're going to see some blitzscaling going on, as Jerry Chen at Greylock and Reid Hoffman talk about. And that's going to change the nature of the participation. You're going to start to see new accelerated things, certification, the role of the foundation certainly has always been to serve the sustainable communities of Open Source. Their role will change as stewards of Open Source, the responsibility and the reliance on the Open Source software will continue to grow, and I think that scale phenomenon of Open Source is, potentially, might be the biggest wave of all, Stu, and I think some people are going to be washed like driftwood and some people are going to thrive and survive. >> You know, it's interesting, we look back at Linux, and Linux took a long time, you know, more than a decade, to really kind of gain mainstream adoption. You know, Red Hat, of course came out of with kind of the leadership and the dollars, but Linux was the foundation for everything being built today. There would be no Google without Linux. There would be no Amazon as we know it today without Linux. And I really liked, I think it was strong resonance, everybody's a little surprised, Joseph Gordon-Levitt in the keynote this morning, someone that we know, you know, from the movies, and we're here in L.A., they're like, oh great, they brought an actor. Well, he's actually pretty passionate. He has this website hitrecord.org, where they do, you know, collaboration, and it's people that are drawing and creating music and creating little clips and everything and they said how a community can help build on what they're doing. He said it's about community, fair compensation, and collaborating, rather than just socializing and sharing or any of those things. And something we've talked a lot is, what is the translation of participating in the community translate into dollars, translate into value. I know it's something you're really passionate about. >> Yeah, Stu, this is again, the big story is the growth. But let's unpack that a little bit. Open Source has always been about sharing, it's always been about community, it's been about innovation, freedom, they called them radicals in the early days but now they got to grow, flexibility, and execution. Here's the bottom line. The leadership of the Open Source is going to morph radically. Look at the program here. You got inclusion, you got a little politics, not like politics of open source, politics of cultural shaping with Christine Corbett Morgan, so she's talking about that, it's very relevant. You have Dan Lyons coming in, talking about the programmer culture, you have the actor coming in talking about collective intelligence. I believe that there's going to be a new way of how people are going to be compensated, how participation's going to scale and this comes down to some key tell tale signs. One, a new generation's coming into the Open Source world, this younger generation. They love Serverless, the love DevOps, because they don't want to deal with the infrastructure. So all the old folks, guys like our age, and gals, they have to provide leadership. I talked with Sam Ramji about this in detail, about how some of these stewards in the community have to step up and be leaders in a new way of governing because as the onboarding of more source code, more projects with IOT, with cloud, you're going to see a new generation of young developers that quite frankly are going to want to run fast, run faster, and they don't want to deal with networking, they don't want to, they want serverless, they want true programmable infrastructure, and that's going to potentially cause some changes, maybe at the leadership level but also how they run things. So, I think, Stu, this is something that we're watching as a big wave. >> Yeah, and it's funny because, we always talk, I'd love to be able to extract a way, even virtualization, oh, we're going to make it real simple, you don't have to worry it anymore, well, you know, John, we got some more interviews today, you know. Networking, storage, these things just don't magically, fairy dust, everything works really well, you know. Data has gravity, networking has lots of challenges we have to worry about. Open Source is now infused into all of these environments. Really helping to build those distributed architectures. We had a number of interviews yesterday talking about, these things are not easy, these are tough challenges. You know, even you talk to people and say, "Kubernetes is awesome," sure is not simple, it is not easy to crawl out. >> They've not graduated any projects out of the CNCF yet, talking to Chris yesterday, the COO, he said, "look, we haven't even graduated anything out of," but this is the point, Stu. Kubernetes is a tell sign, that's not fully-baked yet, it's an under-the-hood feature. Serverless, which I love the name and hate it at the same time because there's servers out there. The notion is that the due developers don't want a provision hardware, to them they just want a resource pool, so serverless is a good trend. The name is kind of weak in my opinion, but I kind of love it and hate it at the same time, I mean. >> John, it's just like cloud was 10 years ago. >> What do you think of Serverless, Stu? I mean bottom line is that how could you not like Serverless because as a developer you're just programming infrastructure as code. >> Right, absolutely, I want to be able to use things in a much more granular format, I want to be able to when I'm not using it not pay for it, it really fits into that environment. Something of course, with this show we're talking about is today, you say Serverless, I think AWS Lambda. The proprietary offering, how does something like Kubernetes fit into that? There's containers underneath, but there are a few different Open Source versions that functions as a service. There's Open FaaS, there's OpenWhisk, there's a couple of others, so how will I be able to take what we were liking about containers in general and Kubernetes specifically, that I can work across a number of environments to make sure that I'm not, John, I'm going to say the word, locked in, to a certain provider or a certain piece of the ecosystem. >> Well, Open Source is so robust right now. Again, 10% of the original ideas can be written in code that could be part of the 90% Open Source base code base. Jim Zemlin, the executive director called that the Code Sandwich. But the bottom line in my opinion, Stu, and you were just pointing it out is that the leadership has to scale. And I think one of the things that came up in some of my hallway conversations last night, talking to some folks who have been early on in Open Source, in the old days you had to hate someone, there was an enemy. There was Microsoft, and now they're on board. There was the big proprietary main mini-computer guys, the proprietary operating systems, they were the enemy. Who's the enemy now? The enemy is slowness, right? So, kind of the fundamental question is, Open Source doesn't have that enemy anymore, it's the standard. So the question is what is going to motivate the organizations? To me, I think it's speed. Speed is the new normal, scale is the new normal. Slowness and silos will be the enemy. >> Absolutely, John. It's something I've heard at a number of events we've been at recently, companies' number one thing is not cost, it's speed, and one of the reasons that so many companies work on, contribute to Open Source is to help them with that speed. They can't wait for the turn of the crank from the old software beast, or oh gosh, there are some chips or hardware involved in that? Open Source, I want to be able to contribute to the code, work on the code, ship it, move faster. >> And the other thing that came up yesterday, I want to get your thoughts and reaction to, is do you have a fashion model going on here? Never fight fashion, as we say, a good marketer would say. You have CNCF is very fashionable right now. But there's blogging and tackling projects that have been around for a while, like the networking piece. These are stable, great projects. They just don't have the pomp and circumstance as CNCF have. So, the balance of being trendy is an issue now for these Open Source communities. No one wants to work on a project that's boring but the relevance is important. So how do you react to that, Stu, because this is now a dynamic, it's kind of been there for a while, but now with the plethora of projects out there, are you nervous that fashion, fashionable trendy projects like CNCF, might suck all the option out of the governance? >> No, John, I mean, from a press and a marketing standpoint they get the attention, but I think that the stats really prove out, there's so many projects out there. Everybody's contributing to a lot of them, but it is something the developers should think about. We did an interview of a company, I remember years back, said, "how do you get the best people "and how do they choose what to do?" "Oh, whatever they feel is good." And I'm like, well, come on, you got to put a little bit of a business guidance on that to make sure what's going to help your business, what's going to help your career, if you're an individual contributing to this. There are plenty of options out there, both for starting new things as well as contributing to the big ones out there. And I liked what I was hearing from the Linux Foundation as to how they're going to give some governance to companies as to the health, that whole CHAOSS that they rolled out, talk about the health and the circular maintenance of things out there, but you know, so much activity. Kubernetes by no means is taking all of the attention, it just happens to be the current hotness. >> Well, there's some key under-the-hood details that are being worked on, that's the exciting part. Linux is a standard, it is powering. Most of the apps that are written are essential Linux apps if you look at the OS underneath. And again, the apps, again, the DevOps mindset is here, and now it's scaling and things like Serverless are going to be more greatness for developers, certainly as companies like Google, IBM, and others come in with real code and share and collaborate, a lot of people can participate in the greatness of Open Source, and I think that's, the future is bright for Linux and the Open Source Summit community. Stu, day two continues, live coverage here in Los Angeles. This is theCUBE, I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman. Coverage of the Open Source Summit North America, in Los Angeles. We'll be right back with more after this short break. (upbeat music)

(relaxing guitar music) >> Announcer: Live from Los Angeles, it's theCUBE, covering Open Source Summit North America 2017. Brought to you by the Linux Foundation and Red Hat. >> Hey, welcome back everyone, live here in Los Angeles, this is CUBE's live coverage of Open Source Summit North America. I'm John Furrier, as part of the Linux Foundation I'm here with Stu Miniman, co-host now to Wikibon. [Unintelligible] Technical product marketing for Linux containers with Red Hat, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thanks for having me, pleasure to be here. >> Thanks for coming on, appreciate Red Hat has been, again, the gold standard when it comes to Open Source, this conference really is about Linux, so you can't go any further than to look at the shining example of success that is Red Hat. From when I was growing up, back in the day, when Open Source was radical, Tier 2, Tier 3 some would argue, alternative to the big boys who were the proprietary operating systems. Now, Tier 1, well documented, don't need to recycle all that, but the fact is, Rell is a Tier 1, supports multiple, seven, ten, how many years now has support Rell, is it over twelve? >> Yeah, we're 15 years of Red Hat Enterprise Linux at this point. >> Oh yeah, come on, John, remember when Red Hat Advance Server came out in, what was that, 2002, 2001, turned into Rell eventually. John, I was working for an infrastructure company and keepingupwiththecolonel.org was a total nightmare, and it needed some adult supervision, and that's what Red Hat brought. >> Yeah, of course, Stu, and this is well-known, every bang, this is Tier 1, is part of the operational infrastructure, so it's got to be stable, but now you've got all this growth going on, certainly we heard Zemlin talking about it on [Unintelligible] he's the Executive Director, saying, look it, we're going to have potentially by 2026 400 million libraries in Open Source. So certainly the Open Source realm is growing. >> Sure. >> Operating systems still has got to power all these applications and see what the best of both worlds, you want the stability foundational aspect of the operating system, while still encouraging experimentation, failure, growth, iteration, so Agile and DevOps Ethos is about Open Source, it is about trying it, same time you got to keep the lights on, they want downtime. What's your reaction, how do you guys look at that going forward? You want to enable more, but you don't want to break stuff. >> Yeah, I mean, that's really kind of one of the hearts of most of our customers' problems right, is if you put it in terms of spend, 75-80% of what people spend money on in IT right now, is keeping the lights on. That's really long-term not sustainable. Right, for anybody involved. So one of the things that we need to do, as an operating system, and as a... Broader than an just an operating system as a distribution, where customers come to us and not want just OS bits, but they also want tooling and application components. How do we draw that line between things that move a little bit faster and upstream, that are popular and people want and need access to, at the same time providing that really long-term, stable system user space that really shouldn't change over a long period of time, because that's what provides that sort of application stability that we can ride out over a long period of time. >> Matt, in the Keynote this morning, Jim put out a lot of stats, talking about 10,000 lines of code outed daily. 2,500 lines of code removed daily. 450 organizations contributing, so much going on in the space. What are they working on? What are some of the big issues, because it's stability, we've added growth, sure there's cool things like Coobernetties and containers, I remember that the hot t-shirt at the Red Hat Summit this year was Linux's containers, containers are Linux. So, we know a little bit about that story, so what sort of things is the community working on these days? >> Sure, so like you said, a lot of shiny objects, right? Even those objects, to be honest, they're not that shiny, you look at some of the original support for what's now Linux Containers, we're talking 2006, if you really want to draw the line, 2002, but there's a lot of things going on in new hardware enablement, it's not just new applications that are taking advantage of these different kinds of technologies, we've got new vendors coming out, ARM is about set to take off and add some new challenges and choices to the Enterprise customers. We've got a lot of folks who are working in networking, the networking is stacked within Rell has changed dramatically over the past ten years, and with Open Stack and things that are driving through DPDK, and into virtual functions and things along those lines, there's a lot of core stability and core change and things that we think of as stable over time. >> Matt, isn't some of those new work loads we spent a lot of time this last year hearing about edge computing, IoT, being something that's pretty important going forward, Linux looks like it's going to be a lot of these places, mobile, it's already all there. We talked this morning, 2017's the year of the Linux Desktop, just because there's so many devices now that are Linux, so how does the workload impact that? >> Yeah, so everything these days is really starting to get to the point where almost everything is a distributed workload. We've definitely left the single systems, single workload paradigm, and even the traditional up through the past few years, n-tier, we have app, web, and database, that's really starting to get pushed out across multiple devices. Not only is it getting compute closer to the edge with some of the IT devices, but simply looking at how we do reliability, stability, you mentioned DevOps, that whole ability to move that reliability layer away from relying on expensive components and hardware, or expensive components and software, they really distribute that layer of knowledge that the application and use more replaceable, more commodity sorts of productions. >> Matt, [Unintelligible] operations is, one of my degree in my undergraduate in computer science, and back in the 80s everything was just build your own operating systems, again, this is where systems come back. But even with the Cloud today is really a systems game, and all of us guys and gals from the old days are now in vogue again because the Cloud is an operating system. Now you got sub-systems, you got, maybe it's distributed a little bit more decentralized, but again, it's the same game, different era, if you will. So you're starting to see the absence on operating systems, so the question is Intel and the Grading Table, Paul Merit used to call Intel the hardened top, where a lot of proprietary stuff underneath that crust that no one really cares-- [Audio Cuts Out]

>> Announcer: Live from Los Angeles it's The Cube covering Open Source Summit North America 2017. Brought to you by the Linux Foundation and Red Hat. >> Hey, welcome back everyone. We're here live in L.A. for the Linux Foundation Open Source Summit North America. I'm John Furrier, your host, with Stu Miniman, my co-host. Our next guest Jim Zemlin, Executive Director of the Linux Foundation, runs the whole show. Welcome back to The Cube, great to see you. >> Thank you, thank you. Runs the whole show is a little bit of an overstatement. >> Well, certainly great keynote up there, I mean, a lot of things coming together. Just some structural things. Let's get the update on what's going on structurally with the Linux Foundation, one, and then two, the keynote today, this morning, really kind of laid out the state of the union, if you will, and all cylinders are pumping, no doubt, on open source. So give the quick update on kind of what's going on with the Linux Foundation and then let's get in some of the trends inside the open source movement. >> Yeah, I mean, our organization has grown quite a bit in the last few years as evident by all the people who are here at this event. But our focus is really on the projects that are important to, you know, the stability, security, and growth of the global internet and of large-scale systems. And when you look at Linux or Node.js or things like our networking projects which are powering the production networks for 3 1/2 billion people, what we're really focused on is making sure those projects are healthy, making sure that they have great developers who write incredible code, that it's used to power things like China Mobile's network or AT&T's production network. And then, those firms are employing the developers who then write more code, you get more solutions, products, services based on Linux or whatever. More reinvestment, lather, rinse, repeat. It's that cycle we're trying to promote. >> So before we get into some of the stats, structurally, I know this show, we've Cube comments out there, clarify the structure. How the shows are rolling out, how are you guys putting together the big-tent events, and how developers can get involved in the specific events across, but now there's a ton of projects. But just at a high level, what's the structure? >> Yeah, so, you know, and I'll throw out a few stats. We have about 25,000 developers that attend all of our events which are all over the world. But we have our Open Source Summit which is really sort of a summit to come together and talk about these big-picture issues around sustainability to allow for cross-project collaboration. We have project-specific events so the CloudNativeCon, KubeCon event which is coming up in Austin which is going to be blow-out, you know, I'm expecting thousands of people. I think probably three, 4,000 people. >> And even more platinum sponsors than I've ever seen on any project before so huge demand. >> It's crazy, yeah. Yeah, you know, get it while it's good, right? All these things kind of go up and down but they're on the upswing. So we have project-specific and then in the networking sector, we have have the Open Networking Summit which is sort of similar to the Open Source Summit but much more focused on networking technology, SDN, and NFD, and that is going to be in L.A. next year and we'll have a U.S. event and then a European and an Asian. >> And this show's purpose is what? How would you position the Open Source Summit? >> The Open Source Summit is where all the projects come together and do cross-pollination. I mean, the idea here is that if you're just always in your silo, you can't actually appreciate what someone else is doing that may improve your project. >> And Jim, there's a couple of events that came together to make this 'cause it was LinuxCon, ContainerCon, and MesosCon is also co-resident so. >> Exactly, so we just decided after a while that all these events could come together and again, this cross-pollination of ideas. >> And they kind of did, they're just different hotels in Seattle last time. >> Yeah, exactly. That's enough, it's just going to be Open Source-- >> It's a big-tent event. >> It's a big-tent event and it really reflects how open source has gone mainstream in a way that I don't think any of us would've predicted even maybe five, six years ago. >> It's pretty massive. Just to quote some stats. 23 million plus open source developers, what you shared onstage there, want to get to your keynote. 41 billion lines of code. 1,000 plus new projects a day. 10,000 new versions pushed per day. 64 million repos on GitHub. Just amazing growth so this kind of points to obviously the rising tide is floating all boats. I made a comment, I tweeted, in the spirit of the joke of standing on the shoulders of giants before you, it's like, what shoulders are we standing on now? Because there's so many projects. Is there going to be like a legacy like the dual-star, badge values, been around for a while? You mentioned old news and you bring up Linus onstage. I mean, some projects are older, more mature, Bruce Wayne, Tier One, meat and potatoes, some got a little bit more flair and fashion to it, if you will. So you got new dynamics going on. Share your thoughts on this. >> Yeah, I mean, it's like the shoulders you're standing on are almost like stage-diving, right? Where it's just lots of people's shoulders that you're really bouncing around on. But the idea here, and what we really focus on, is what are the most important projects in the world and how do we make sure we sustain those projects. So those are the ones that you're going to generally see focused on here. Like, you know, if you've got two people contributing to one small repo for a very small project, that's probably not something that's going to be super high-profile here. But what we're trying to do is bring together sort of the big projects and also the key contributors. You know, if you look at the distribution of contribution, and this is the thing, I think, if you're a developer listening to something like this, someone who gives just one commit to a project to solve some kind of problem they might have, that's the vast majority of people. Somebody who does maybe five to 10 commits, you know, a little bit less, quite a bit less. The vast majority of code, people who give 25 or more commits to a project, small group of folks, they're here. >> I know Stu wants to ask a question, one final question on the growth 'cause this kind of reminds me of sports as we're like the ESPN of tech here for the community. If you look at the growth, you put a slide in there by SourceClear that show the projection, by 2026, at 400 million libraries, putting it today around, I think, 64 million. This is going to be like an owners meeting. It's kind of like they get together, this event because you are going to have so many projects 'cause this is kind of the vibe you got going on in here. The scale is massive, this is going to be almost like the owners meeting, the teams. Expansion's going to be coming, you have to deal with that, that's challenging. >> We're ready to grow, I mean, we've been working on systems and staffing and processes to help scale with that. You know, we take seriously that that code runs modern society. It keeps us private or doesn't as we saw with the Equifax hack which was a CVE in an open source project and we want to be ready to up our game. Let's say we could have secure coding class at this very event for the greatest developers who are working on our most important projects in the world. Would that make all of our lives better? Yes, absolutely. >> Yes, absolutely would. Yeah and you want to enable that, that's where you're going. >> That's exactly where we're going. >> Jim, the quote that jumped out at me that you gave in the keynote was, projects with sustainable ecosystems are the ones that matter. How do we balance all this? I heard in, you know, Linus's Q and A it was, look, individual's important but companies are important. You put up a slide and said, there's thousands and thousands of projects, sometimes we're going to get some really awesome stuff from three people contributing code versus the massive ecosystem with all the platinum providers so, it's always in technology, it's an and and it's very nuanced but how do we get our arms around this? How do we know where to focus? >> It's worth going back in time to understand where the future is going and study innovation theory, you know, Eric von Hippel at MIT, or Karim Lakhani at Harvard Business School. And you look at the framework, which is, you have corporations who underwrite a lot of development by hiring developers who have an equal importance in this and then users of that software. So those are your main constituents and sometimes they're the same people, right, or the same things. They're not mutually exclusive, they're actually self-reinforcing if you get the formula right and you make sure that the project is in good shape so that it gives confidence to industry or society that, hey, we can count on that. I think Heartbleed and OpenSSL maybe rattled people's cages like, hey, can we count on, not just this project, but can we count on open source period? So we spent a ton of time working with that project to provide them millions in resources, audited their code, expanded their testing, and we learned a hell of a lot about how to support these communities in the most important developer projects in the world and create that positive feedback loop, that's what we're doing. >> Yeah and Jim, it's, as an analyst, one of the things we're always asked is, right, how do I choose the right technology? Whereas companies now are contributing here so it's not just I'm putting dollars in, I'm putting manpower into this. And the foundations sometimes get a lot of lung from people, saying it's like, oh well, people throw money and what do they get out of it? I liked what I heard today, you talking about this cycle, and maybe talk to our audience a little bit about CHAOSS which I though was a nice, tongue-in-cheek acronym to say how you're actually going to bring order to the chaos that we see in the open source world. >> I'm going to come to this but I want to answer one quick question about the roles of organizations like ours. We are the roadies, the supporting cast, and the plumbers and the janitors of the system that keep things going but the real rock stars are the developers. If you think about it, Linux is worth $10 billion. An average kernel developer makes probably, let's say $150,000 a year, by the way, they make more than your average developer because they're in such high demand. The role of organizations like ours is such a tiny fraction financially of what is really fueling this model but it's an important one. What we ask ourselves all the time is, why do you need us? Who cares, right? Like, throw your code up on GitHub, you don't need the Linux Foundation, right? Why do we even exist? And the answer is to do things like this Community Health Analytics for Open Source Software, to provide the infrastructure for sustainability. Sustainability is something that we need to measure, right? How many developers are contributing to a project? Are they from a diverse community so that if one group goes away, there'll be somebody else there to do that work? How much test coverage do they have? Are there code quality metrics that we could look at? Do they have security practices like a responsible disclosure policy, a security mailing list? Have they recently fuzzed their code? Are they a community that's welcoming for people of different backgrounds? And so on and so forth. If you don't have a healthy project, you kind of don't want to bet your company on this project by using it in a production system, right? But here's the interesting thing, how many people are using that code in production also is a metric for health, right? Because that's where the reinvestment is going to come in the form of developers who are working on it. >> There's a difference between being proactive and jamming something down someone's throat. So you're taking an approach, if I get this right, to be kind of the same open source ethos, use some KPIs, key performance indicators, to give them a sense of success. But it's not an edict saying-- >> No, no, it can't be an edict. What you want to do is preserve the organic innovation that goes on in open source and get projects to go, and you'll notice that curve of sort of value to volume goes up and to the left, we could've written it to the right but, you know, the whole copyleft thing we love. How do you get that organic innovation to kind of go from this small project up and to the left? How do you capture that? Well, give tools to everyone so that they can better self-analyze. >> John: You get exponential growth with that. >> Exactly. >> If you try to control, it's linear but you bring it to the community, you get exponential growth. >> Exactly, so we studied a ton of innovation theory, we looked at how we could build frameworks to facilitate this kind of form of mass innovation and so that's where tools like CHAOSS which is being worked on by Red Hat and a lot of companies who want to figure out which project should I work on? How can I spot that one earlier? And we're excited about it. >> You know, I always joke, being the old guy that I am, in the late '80s, early '90s, '80s particularly when I was coding. We did everything, we wrote all the code. You bring up an interesting stat and you put the finger on, at least for me, and I think this is where a lot of us old timers who had to do all the libraries from scratch. You mentioned the code sandwich, the code club, the club sandwich, how code's being made and the interesting thing, as you point out, 90% of most great software is done with open source where the 10% innovation is done with original code or original content, if you will, and that that is the norm. So open source is now called the code sandwich because you can put your differentiation and that's a good use of time. >> That's the meat, right. >> That's the meat, it's not a wish sandwich to use the old Blues Brothers example but I mean look, the thing is is that that's dynamic is real, the code is leverageable, and that this is the dynamic so where'd the number come from? Because that seems really high to me but I love it. >> So that number came from a combination of Sonatype, SourceClear, and other organizations that monitor commercial reuse of software on a global basis. So these are the folks who are actually working with commercial industry to look at the makeup of their code, basically. You don't have to go far to look at a Node.js developer, they're using Node.js, they're taking packages out of NPM, and they're writing, they're cut and paste masters, but they write this critical component that's the meat of their application, it's what they do. >> But that's the innovation fabric that's happening. >> It also is a requirement because let's look at a modern, luxury vehicle today. It has 100 million lines of code in it. That's more than an F-35, like, fighter jet. That's an unbelievable amount of code. Toyota, who we work with, and you know, our AGL, our Automotive Grade Linux, is in their Camry. They couldn't write that code on their own. It's just too much. And this is how we get to autonomous vehicle control and things like that. >> I know you got a tight schedule, I want to make one more comment, get your reaction to it. I made a tweet and said, it's open bar in open source and with a reference to all the goodness being donated by companies, Google TensorFlow, there's a lot of other things coming in, these libraries. A lot of people are bringing really, really big IP to the table, IoT, and I kind of made an open remark 'cause a lot of the young kids, they think this is normal, like, well it's going to get better. Keep on drinking that open source. Is this normal? Is it going to be more like this in the future? Because you have essentially real intellectual property, like say from Google, being given to the open source communities as a gift for innovation. I mean, that is just unprecedented greatness. >> The reason for that is they're not doing it necessarily altruistically although I think you can take it that way, they're doing it in a way that betters themselves and others at the same time. I mean, it is a form of collective capitalism where they've realized, my value's over here, it is better for me to collaborate on underlying infrastructure software that my customers don't care about that's not critical to my system but I absolutely have to have and I'm going to focus on data or I'm going to focus on much higher-level innovation. And what that's doing is creating this hockey stick of innovation where, as we share more and more and more infrastructure software, and as that keeps moving up and up the stack, we all benefit. >> So in the theory of the management, bring up management theory, their theory, I'd love to get your thoughts on, is that they're betting on scale rather than trying to go for profits in the short-term, they'd much rather share intellectual property on the back-end value of scale and scale's the new competitive advantage. >> Exactly, take Kubernetes as an example. The fact that, today, and just even a couple years ago this wasn't known, we didn't quite know where this was going to be, but today you can take Node.js, build a container, you know, take an application, throw it into a container, and use Kubernetes to run it on Azure, Amazon, Google, or in a private cloud. That definition, the ability to do that, unlocks this massive developer productivity which creates more value which is more business opportunity for all these guys. You know, they're not doing it 'cause they're nice people, they're doing it 'cause they're unlocking market potential. >> And they're the real rock stars. Jim you're doing a great job. Congratulations on your success. You got a lot of growth in front of you, a lot of challenges and opportunities certainly with that and of course, the tech athletes out there doing the coding, they're the real rock stars, they're the real athletes. Of course, we get more on The Cube, thanks for your support with The Cube as well, appreciate that. >> Jim: Thank you, thanks for everything. >> Alright, this is live coverage from Open Source Summit North America in Los Angeles, California. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman, we'll be back with more live coverage after this short break.

>> Announcer: Live from Los Angeles. It's theCUBE covering Open Source Summit North America 2017. Brought to you by, the Linux Foundation and Red Hat. >> Hello everyone, welcome back. Our live coverage, theCUBE's live coverage, of the Open Source Summit in North America, it's a part of the Linux Foundation. I'm John Furrier your host, with Stu Miniman our co-host. Our next guest is Tanmay Bakshi, who is an IBM honorary cloud advisor, algorithmist, former CUBE alumni. Great to see you. >> Thank you very much! Glad to be here! >> You get taller every year. It was what, three years ago, two years ago? >> I believe yeah, two years ago, Interconnect 2016. >> IBM show... doing a lot of great stuff. You're an IBM VIP, you're doing a lot of work with them. IBM Champion. >> Thank you >> Congratulations. >> Thank you. >> What's new? You're pushing any code today? >> Definitely! Now today, getting ready for my BoF that I've got tonight, it's been absolutely great. I've been working on a lot of new projects that I'm going to be talking about today and tomorrow at my keynote. Like I've been working on AskTanmay, or course you know, Interconnect 2016, very first time I presented AskTanmay. Since then, a lot has changed, I've incorporated real, deep learning algorithms, custom, with tensorflow. Into AskTanmay, AskTanmay now thinks about what it's actually looking at, using Watson as well, it's really interesting. And of course, new projects that I'm working on, including DeepSPADE, which actually, basically helps online communities, to detect, and of course report and flag spam, from different websites. For example, Stack Overflow, which I'm working on right now. >> So you're doing some deep learning stuff >> Tanmay: Yes >> with IBM Watson, the team, everything else. >> Tanmay: Exactly, yes. >> What's the coolest thing you've worked on, since we last talked? (laughing) >> Well it would have to be a tie between AskTanmay, DeepSPADE, and advancement to the Cognitive Story. As you know, from last time, I've been working on lots of interesting projects, like with AskTanmay, some great new updates that you'll hear about today. DeepSPADE itself though, I'd like to get a little bit more into that. There's actually, I mean of course, everyone listening right now has used Stack Overflow or Stack Exchange at one point in their lives. And so, they've probably noticed that, a little bit, here and there, you'd see a spam message on Stack Overflow, on a comment or post. And of course there are methods to try and prevent spam on Stack Overflow, but they aren't very effective. And that's why a group of programmers, known as Charcoal SE, actually went ahead and started creating, basically this sweep to try and prevent spam on Stack Exchange. And they call it, SmokeDetector. And it helps them to find and remove spam on Stack Exchange. >> This is so good until it goes out, and the battery needs to be replaced, and you got to get on a chair. But this whole SmokeDetector, this is a real way they help create a good, healthy community. >> Yes, exactly. So, they try and basically find spam, report to moderators, and if enough alarms are set off, they try and report it, or flag it automatically, via other people's accounts. And so basically, what I'm trying to do is, I mean, a few weeks ago, when I found out about what they're doing, I found out that they use regular expressions to try and find spam. And so they have, you know, years of people gathering experience, they're experts in this field. And they keep, you know, adding more regular expressions to try and find spam. And since I, you know, am really really passionate about deep learning, I thought why not try and help them out, trying to augment this sort of SmokeDetector, with deep learning. And so, they graciously donated their data set to me, which has a good amount of training, training rows for me to actually train a deep learning system to classify a post between spam or non-spam. And you'll be hearing a lot more about the model architecture, the CNN plus GRU model, that I've got running in Keras, tonight during my BoF. >> Now, machine learning, could be a real benefit to spam detection, cause the patterns. >> Tanmay: Exactly. >> Spammers tend to have their own patterns, >> Tanmay: Exactly. >> as do bots. >> Tanmay: Yes, exactly, exactly. And eventually, you realize that hey, maybe we're not using the same words in every post, but there's a specific pattern of words, or specific type of word, that always appears in a spam message. And machine learning would help us combat against that. And of course, in this case, maybe we don't actually have a word, or a specific website, or a specific phone number, that would trigger a regular expression alarm. But in the context that this website appears, machine learning can tell us that, "hey, yeah, this is probably a spam post." There are lots of really interesting places where machine learning can tie in with this, and help out with the accuracy. In fact, I've been able to reach around 98% accuracy, and around 15 thousand testing rows. So, I'm very glad with the results so far, and of course, I'm continuing to do all this brand retuning and everything... >> Alright, so how old are you this year? I can't keep the numbers straight. Are you 13, 14? >> Well originally, Interconnect 2016, I was 12, but now I'm 13 years old, and I'm going to be 14 in October, October 16th. >> Okay, so you're knocking on 14? >> Tanmay: Uh, not just yet there, I'll be 14... >> So, Tanmay, you're 14, you're time's done, at this point. But, one of your missions, to be serious, is helping to inspire the next generation. Especially here, at the Open Source Summit, give us a preview of what we're going to see in your keynote. >> Sure, definitely. And now, as you mentioned, in fact, I actually have a goal. Which is really to reach out to and help 100 thousand aspiring coders along their journey, of learning to code, and of course then applying that code in lots of different fields. In fact I'm actually, already around 4,500 people there. Which, I'm very very excited about. But today, during my BoF, as I mentioned, I'm going to be talking a lot about the in-depth of the DeepSpade and AskTanmay projects I've been working on. But tomorrow, during my keynote, you'll be hearing a lot about generally all the projects that I've been working on, and how they're impacting lots of different fields. Like, healthcare, utility, security via artificial intelligence and machine learning. >> So, when you first talked to us about AskTanmay, it's been what almost 18 months, I think there. What's changed, what's accelerating? I hear you throw out things like Tensorflow, not something we were talking about two years ago. >> Tanmay: Yeah. >> What have been some of the key learnings you've had, as you've really dug into this? >> Sure, in fact, this actually something that I'm going to be covering tonight. And that is, that AskTanmay, you could say, that it's DNA, well, from AskMSR, that was made in 2002. And I took that, revived it, and basically made it into AskTanmay. In its DNA, there were specific elements, like for example, it really relies on data redundancy. If there's no data redundancy, then AskTanmay doesn't do well. If you were to ask it where it was, where's the Open Source Summit North America going to be held, it wouldn't answer correctly, because it's not redundant enough on the internet. It's mentioned once or twice, but not more than that. And so, I learned that it's currently very, I guess you could say naive how it actually understands the data that it's collecting. However, over the past, I'd say around six or seven months, I've been able to implement a BiDAF or Bi-Directional Attention Flow, that was created by Allen AI. It's completely open-source, and it uses something that's called a SQuAD data set, or Stanford Question and Answer Data Set. In order to actually take paragraphs and questions, and try to return answers as snippets from the paragraphs. And so again, integrating AskTanmay, this allows me to really reduce the data redundancy requirement, able to merge very similar answers to have, you know better answers on the top of the list, and of course I'm able to have it more smart, it's not as naive. It actually understands the content that it's gathering from search engines. For example, Google and Bing, which I've also added search support for. So again, a lot has changed, using deep learning but still, sort of the key-points of AskTanmay requires very little computational power, very very cross-platform, runs on any operating system, including iOS, Android, etc. And of course, from there, open-source completely. >> So how has your life changed, since all the, you've been really in the spotlight, and well-deserved I think. It's been great to have you On theCUBE multiple times, thanks for coming on. >> Thank you No, definitely of course. >> Dave Vallante was just calling. He wants to ask you a few questions himself. Dave, if you're watching, we'll get you on, just call right now. What's going on, what are you going to do when... Are you like happy right now? Are you cool with everything? Or is there a point where you say, "Hey I want to play a little bit with different tools", you want more freedom? What's going on? >> Well, you see, right now I'm very very excited, I'm very happy with what I'm doing. Because of course I mean, my life generally has changed quite a bit since last Interconnect, you could say. From Interconnect 2016 to 17, to now. Of course, since then, I've been able to go into lots of different fields. Not only am I working with general deep learning at IBM Watson, now I'm working with lots of different tools. And I'm working especially, in terms of like, for example Linux. What I've been doing with open-source and everything. I've been able to create, for example, AskTanmay now integrated Keras and tensorflow. DeepSpade is actually built entirely off of tensorflow and Keras. And now I've also been able to venture into lots of different APIs as well. Not just with IBM Watson. Also things like, we've got the Dandelion API. Which AskTanmay also relies off of Dandelion, providing text similarity services for semantic and syntactic text similarity. Which, again, we'll be talking about tonight as well. So, yeah, lot's has changed, and of course, with all this sort of, new stuff that I'm able to show, or new media for which I'm able to share my knowledge, for example, all these, you know CUBE, interviews I've been doing, and of course all these keynotes, I'm able to really spread my message about AI, why I believe it's not only our future, but also our present. Like, for example, I also mentioned this last time. If you were to just open up your phone right now, you already see that you're, half of your phone is powered by AI. It's detecting that hey you're at your home right now, you just drove back from work, and it's this time on this day, so you probably want to open up this application. It predicts that, and provides you with that. Apart from that, things like Siri, Google Now, these are all powered by AI, they're already an integral part of our lives. And of course, what they're going to be doing in our lives to come is just absolutely great. With like, healthcare, providing artificial communication ability for people who can't communicate naturally. I think it's going to be really really interesting. >> Tanmay, it's always great have you on theCUBE. Congratulations. >> Tanmay: Thank you very much. >> AskTanmay, good projects. Let's stay in touch, as we start to produce more collaboration, we'd love to keep promoting your work. Great job. And you're an inspiration to many. >> Tanmay: Thank you very much, glad to be here. >> Thanks for coming on theCUBE. Live coverage from the Open Source Summit's theCUBE, in Los Angeles. I'm John Furrer, Stu Miniman. We'll be back with more live coverage after short this break. (upbeat music)

(cheerful music) >> Voiceover: Live, from Los Angeles, it's theCUBE covering Open Source Summit North America 2017, brought to you by the Linux Foundation and Red Hat. >> Okay, welcome back here when we're here live with theCUBE coverage of Linux Foundation Open Source Summit North America in Los Angeles, I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman, our next guest is Arpit Joshipura, General Manager of Networking the Linux Foundation. Welcome back to theCUBE, great to see you. >> Thank you, nice to be here again. >> Always good to talk networking, as Stu and I always say networking is probably the most active audience in our community, because at the end of the day, everything rolls downhill to networking when the people complain. It's like "where the hell's my WiFi, "where's the patent latency," networking SDN was supposed to solve all that. Stu, we're still talking about networking. When are we going to fix the network? It's always in the network, but important. In all seriousness, a lot of action continues and innovation to networking. >> Absolutely. >> What's the update? >> Update is very exciting. So first of all, I can confidently say that open source networking, not just networking, but open source networking is now mainstream. And it's mainstream in the telcos, in the carriers, service providers, it's getting there in the enterprise. And Linux Foundation is really proud to host eight of the top 10 projects that are in open source networking. ONAP, ODL, OPNFV, Fido, you know, the list goes on. And we're really excited about each of these projects, so good momentum. >> We've been seeing and talking about it too, we all, joking aside, the intro there, but in all seriousness we've been saying, we get better the network, it's finally happening. Has it been a maturization of the network itself, has it been industry force and what have been the forces of innovations been? OpenStack has done some great work, they're not getting a lot of love these days with some people, but still we've seen a lot of production workflows at OpenStack, OpenStack's still there, rocking and rolling. New projects are onboarding, you see the telcos getting business models around digital. What's the drivers? Why is network mainstream now? >> I think it's a very simple answer to that, and that is before 5G and IoT hit the market, network better be automated. It's a very simple requirement. And the reason is very self-explanatory, right? You can't have an IoT device on the call on hold while you get your service up (laughs). So, it's IoT, right? And it is the same thing on 5G, a lot of new use cases around cars or around low latency apps. You need automation, and in order to have automation, a carrier or a solution provider goes through a simple journey. Am I virtualized? Yes or no? Am I using the building blocks of SDN and NFV? Yes or no? And the third, which is now reality, which is, am I using open source to do it? Yes, and I'm going to do it. And that's the driver right? I mean it's all- >> Automation, when you started throwing out a lot of TLAs, you talk about SDN and NFV, we've got a four-letter acronym that we need to talk about. The Open Network Automation Platform. Why don't you bring your audience up to speed, what that is, the news that you have this week. >> Absolutely, so ONAP was launched earlier in 2017. It's a combination of two open source projects, ECOMP and Open-O, and we wanted to bring the community together versus sort of fragmented, and because our end users are asking for a harmonized solution. So we brought it together. It was launched earlier this year as we talked about, but the most significant thing is it has received tremendous support from the member community. So at OSS today, we just announced that Vodafone has joined as a platinum member. They will be on our board, and as you know Vodafone is one of the top providers. So if you add up all the subscribers that are being influenced by ONAP, they come to 55%. So out of the 4.5 billion subscribers that exist, more than 55% will be influenced by ONAP and the work that happens. That includes China Mobile, China Telecom, China Unicom, all of the China, Bell Canada, AT&T obviously who sort of was the founding member, Orange, Reliance Jio from India. So we've got, Comcast joined earlier in the quarter, so we've got cable companies, carriers, all joining. And to be very honest, I'll probably just give you the list of all the networking vendors that are participating here, and I've list Amdocs, Cisco, Ericsson, GigaSpaces, Hua Wei, IBM, Intel, Nokia, Tech Mahindra, VMware, ZTE, Juniper, you know, you name it. >> Arpit, I mean the long story short is-- >> Just cause they're involved does that mean they're actually working-- >> They're active. Active. >> we're not going to be critical on this. >> But come on, even Cisco's involved in the open source stuff, right? >> They've very active. >> We've had lots of guests on from Cisco, Lulu Tucker's been on many many times. We know the open source there, but it used to be, networking was very proprietary. Now, it wasn't SDNs going to totally change everything, it's lots of different pieces, lots of different projects. It kind of felt like the river slowly wearing down the mountain as to this transition from proprietary to open source. >> I think what happened is if you just look at four years back, it was proprietary. Not because people liked it, that was the only game in town. When the open source industry, especially in the networking, and this is a hundred year old industry, telecom right? When it came in in the desegregated manner, hardware and software separated, control plane separated from data plane, all of that happened, and what happened suddenly was each components started becoming mature. So they're production-ready components, and what ONAP and what Linux Foundation is intending to do this year is trying to bring all the components into a system solution. So that it's easy to deploy, and all you have to do is point, click a service, everything below it will all be automated and integrated. >> Well the telcos are under a lot of pressure. I mean this has been a decade run, over-the-top they've been struggling with that from years ago, decade ago or more. But now they're getting their act together. We're seeing some signs, even VMworld. Stu, Pat Gelsinger said 5G's the next big kahuna in networking the next 20 years, you can validate it. This is going to be a 20 year changeover, so as the Linux Foundation, which essentially is the organic growth engine for this community, what do you guys see in that 20 years? Cause I see 5G's going to create all these connection points. IoT is going to be massive. That's going to increase the surface area for potential attacks. We're seeing a networking paradigm that's moving from old guards Cisco, Juniper, and some of the names you mentioned. They got to make some changes. How are they adjusting? What's going on so the next 20 years we don't have more conflict and more identity politics. >> I'll tell you one thing, I come from a vendor community, right? So I really appreciate the work they're doing. Part of the reason you would have seen in the past a vendor dragging their feet is because of fragmentation in the community. You as a vendor do not know where to put your resources, people, and where you put your money. What we're doing at the Linux Foundation is starting to harmonize all that. And once you do that and you have enough of a scale and enough of a community, there is no shortage of people and developers that the vendors are contributing to. >> John: What's some of the proof points that you can share? >> Okay, so ONAP, from start to now, about 1100 Wiki members already. That means 1100 unique developers are joining the project. Over 50 members. We ran out of VMs, I mean it's like that has not happened in any project for over five years. We had to fire up people more. So you can see that... And this is not just, these are competitors, but if you step back and look at it, they're competitors from an end user perspective, but they're solving the common problem in which they don't get any money. They don't make any money. These are things that absolutely need to happen. The plumbing, the infrastructure, the orchestration, the control layer, the data plane layer, all of that need to just happen, it should just work. And let them differentiate on top. We are actively seeing almost everybody participating significantly. >> Stu, let's hear your thoughts on this. You guys are both, I view you guys both as experts and influencers in this networking ecosystem, so I got to ask you both a question. CNCF has gotten a lot of traction with funding, sponsorships are off the charts, you're seeing massive tractions, Stu, where you also see that KubeCon Cloud Native, but you have native clouds, I call them native clouds, in Amazon and then soon-to-be enterprises that want to run software-defined networking. So the question is do you see the same kind of support going for your group as CNCF's getting? Is it just fashionable at this point, CNCF? Why isn't the networking getting as much love at least from a sponsorship standpoint. >> Let's define love. So if you define love as the 2017 ONS, which is our largest networking summit, we grew that 10%, everything was off the charts. The feedback, the content-- >> John: The attendance growth or sponsorships? >> Attendance, sponsorships, CFPs were 5x oversubscribed. Call for papers, for submissions, 5x oversubscribed. So we had a hard time picking the best of the best. ONS 2018 is going to be here in LA, we've already started getting requests on, you know, so we're the same boat. >> So you feel good. >> We feel good. >> Not about this, like you're winning. >> No, but I tell you-- >> There'll be positive numbers we know from the hype scale horses, Stu, answer your question and then maybe you guys can comment. So is it a matter of that there's more buzz in positioning involved in the hype side of CNCF now, and there's just meat and potatoes being done in the networking world, Stu? Cause you and I both know, if no one has nothing to say, they've got to kind of market themselves. >> So John, think back to five years ago, how much hype and buzz there was around SDN. John, you and I interviewed like Martin Casado, he just bought for $1.4 billion, all these startups, lots of VC investment, so I think we're further down the maturity curve. Now networking's always-- >> John: People going to work, they're doing their job. >> It's real, it's in production-- >> It's funny-- >> It's not parb, I always say when you move from PowerPoint to production, real things happen. >> I always say, if there's going to be sizzle, I better see some steak on the grill, so what's happening is steak is cooking right now. >> And John, so one of the things we say, networking, no offense to all my friends in networking, networking is never sexy. >> Oh, come on Stu, networking is totally sexy. >> I always say it's cool again. >> Networking has never lost its edge. >> It absolutely is majorly important, but Arpit, take us in, you know, Kubernetes is hot, containers get a lot of buzz and everything. Networking, critical piece of making sure that this works, feels like, I think back to the virtualization days, it took us 10 years to kind of solve those things that that abstraction layer broke. It feels like networking is further ahead than it was, it's moving faster, we understand it's not something that's just kind of oh we'll let the networking guys get to it eventually. Networking and security, which often has that networking tie are front and center now. >> Very good point, and I think what you have to also sort of step back and look at is what are the problems that need to be solved from an end user perspective? So the hardest networking problems at the data plane control layers, check. Next big problem that remain to be solved was orchestration, data analytics, and things like that. Check, solve, with ONAP. Now the next problems that need to be solved are containerization of enterprise app, which is where Kubernetes and... and then how does containerization work with networking? That's all the C&I, the interfaces. I would say next year, you will start to see the interworking and the blend of these "hot projects" where they can all come together. >> Stu, you were there in 2010, I looked right in the camera and said to Dave Vellante, storage is not as sexy. And Dave called it snoreage, cause snoreage is boring. (Stu laughs) >> And at that time, the storage industry went on a run. And we well-documented that. Sexy is, networking is sexy. And I think that we-- >> I call it cool. >> And I just tweeted, 25g is a good indicator of a 20 year run, and networking is the big kahuna as Pat Gelsinger said in IoT, so I think, Stu, I think it's going to be very apparent, sexy. I just don't see a lot of amplifications, so you don't see a lot of people marketing the sizzle. I think, being done I would agree, but Stu, there's more buzz and hype on the CNCF side than networking. >> That's fair. I think it is always as you said, it's the initial phase of any project that gets a lot of clicks and a lot of interest, and people want to know about it. A lot of the buzz is around, just awareness. The classic marketing cycle, and I think we're past that. It was therefore ONAP in January, we're past that. >> Alright, so here's the question, final question. So the steak is coming off the grill in our metaphor here, what are people-- what is that product, what's happening, what is the big deliverable right now from a networking standpoint that people can bet on and know that they can cross the bridge into the future with it. >> You will see a visible difference, you as in an end user, an enterprise, or a residential consumer. You will see a significant difference in terms of how you get services. It's as simple as that. Why? Because it's all automated. Network on-demand, disaster recovery, video conference services. Why did over-the-top players, why were they so successful? If you need a Gmail ID, you go in, you get one. It's right there. Try getting a T1 line five years ago. That would be six weeks, six months. So with the automation in place, the models are converging. >> So provisionings are automatically happening-- >> Provisionings, service, and then the thing that you will not see but you will see in the services impact, is the closed loop automation that has all the analytics built in. Huge, huge. I mean, network is the richest source, and by the way, I'll come back next year and I'll tell you why we are cool again. Because all of a sudden, it's like oh my god look at that data and the analytics that the network is giving me. What can I do with it? You can do AI, you can do machine learning, you can do all these things. >> Well, we're looking forward to it, the eye of the storm is kind of happening now I think in networking, Stu and I always have debates about this, cause we see a lot of great action. Question is, let's see the proof points, you guys are doing some good work. Thanks for sharing, Arpit, really appreciate, General Manager of Networking at Linux Foundation. It's theCUBE, more live coverage from Los Angeles, the Open Source Summit North America. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman, be back with more live coverage after this short break. (techno music)

live from Los Angeles it's the queues covering open-source summit North America 2017 brought to you by the Linux Foundation and redhead he welcome back everyone here live in LA for the open source summit in North America I'm jumper with my co-host Jeff Fritz too many men he'll be back shortly is out scouring the hallways for all the news and analysis getting all the scuttlebutt are here we're here with our next guest brian behlendorf who is the executive director of the hyper ledger project for the Linux Foundation thanks for coming on thank ledger thanks for sharing we just talking before the camera started rolling about blockchain and the coolness around the hype around it but again the hype cycle is usually a pretext to the trend hyper ledger is one of those exciting projects that like AI everyone is jazzed about because it's the future right open source is getting bigger and bigger as Jim zemulon was saying 23 million developers and growing but there's still so much work to be done the global society's relying on open source it's shaping our culture - Ledger's one of those things where it is going to actually disrupt the culture and change it potentially and even this morning Chinese band virtual currencies and icos and all based upon doesn't mean it's time to invest yes and whatever China bands it's always been successful so your thoughts go first boy star let's get into hyper ledger project it's certainly super exciting probably people are talking about it heavily what's going on with the project give a quick update what's the purpose who's involved and when some of the milestones you guys have hyper ledger is less than two years old it was launched officially in December of 2015 I joined in main and it was founded on the principle that hey there's a lot of interesting stuff happening in the cryptocurrency world but there might be some more prosaic some more directly applicable applications of distributed ledger and smart contract technology to rebooting a lot of otherwise very thorny problems for industries in the world the main problem being you've got companies doing business with each other and the recording transactions and you know they'll have to go back and reconcile their systems to get audited bugs right and a lot of the systems out there depend upon processes at a very human processes that are prone to error prone to corruption right so the idea is the more that you can pull together you know information about transactions into a shared system of record which is really with the distributed ledger it's and then the more about of the governance and the and the business processes enclosed that you can automate by smart contract the more effective the more efficient a lot of these markets will be so that's what hyper ledger is about ok so certainly the the keynote was all about open sources being dependent upon and Jim's Emlyn as well as Christine Corbett said you know traditionally control we all know that open source but I love that the deployment changing the face of capitalism because hyper ledger is a term that you can almost apply to the notion of decentralize not just distributed but decentralized business so the notion of supply chain things in finance to moving Goods around the world this is interesting this is how about the impact of how you guys are seeing some of these applications we're now a decentralized architecture combined with distributed creates an opportunity for changing the face of capitalism flowing because the word distributed can be very loaded all right you know and even decentralized right it can be very loaded and what I what I tried to popularize is the idea of minimum viable centralization right you know football games and other sports games have referees right and when we play a game like this well sometimes you know sometimes we don't need a referee it's just us playing pick-up basketball but we want somebody on the periphery we all agree to who helps remind us what the rules are and throws a red flag from time to time all right and so you see in industries ranging from finance where you're building these transaction networks to you know supply chains where you need to track the flow of like food and to know when if food has gotten spoiled possibly where that came from or diamonds that have been involved in conflict time and you know other illegal activities right you want to know where that came for a minute and it involves that industry getting together and saying we all agree we have a big net interest in making our business actually follow certain rules and norms right and using a distributed ledger to to bring that about it's something that can just provide a lot of optimizations so most people think of like Bitcoin and ether a mezda with all this ICO buzz as de as the front end to really the underlying blockchain which you're talking about yeah and that's kind of like I get that fiat currency in this market developed to look crazed bubbles some people call it whatever but you're getting at something unique and this is that there's a real business value of hyper ledger I won't say boring but it's like meat and potatoes stuff it's like really kind of prosaic is the prosaic it's like so but it's disruptive so if you think about like the old days when we were growing up or I was growing up ERP was on mini computers and the prized resource planning relationship management software those were bloated monolithic software packages yeah still out there today and they handle the so called supply chain right so is the hypervisor a disruption to that is it an augmentation of that so some try to put it in context the cost of sending a shipping container from China to the United States right half of that is in paperwork half of that is because that container on average will go through 30 different organizations from the the you know the suppliers that you're assembling the goods into to all the different ports all the different regulatory authorities right out finally to where it's delivered and if you can optimize those business processes if you can make it so that the happen in a space where it's not about paper and facts which a lot of that world is still ruled by today or a bureaucrat sitting there reviewing stuff that's coming in and having to stamp it when really all that could be automated you could cut the cost of that and take the shipping industry from what is right now a money-losing industry to potentially being viable once again so optimization is really critical for them it's optimization but it but there's also some new capabilities here so I spent a year at Department of Health and Human Services trying to help make health care records more portable for patients right and we wrote it and got it I got the industry to write a ton of open source software implemented open standards to make these records shareable the problem was the patient wasn't involved right this was about trying to take two orgs do something that all of their bean counters told them not to do which was share patient records because no that's proprietary value and the HIPAA regulations all that not exactly blackens processes basically with blocking with blocking technology that we can reinvent that as a patient driven process right we could reinvent a lot of the other business processes out there that involve personally identifiable information like the Equifax disaster right we could reinvent how the credit markets assess risk in individuals through blockchain technology in a way that doesn't require us to build these big central anonymous third parties that Coover everybody's data and become these massive privacy titanic's right we can reinvent a lot of this through blockchain tech and that's a lot of what we're working on that Nagaraja because a analytics from that kind of a unique place because you're used to driving these big open-source projects there's a lot of people and they're trying to build the wrapper around the base core of blockchain to come up with their version or their kind of application if you will whether it be Bitcoin or whatever but you guys are in kind of a special place based on your roots we believe that I mean open standards are nice but what really matters is common code right and in a world like we envision where rather than saying you one big Network like Bitcoin or one big Network like aetherium you've got thousands or tens of thousands of these permission networks that cover different industries different geographies different regions what you need is common software so that when a developer goes to work on an application that touches one or multiple of these they've got familiar idioms to work they've got familiar technologies to work with like NGO or Java or JavaScript right but they've got a community of other technologies has been trained up on these technologies that can help them bootstrap and launch their project and maybe even become a contributor to the open source so what we've figured out at the Linux Foundation is how to make that virtuous cycle go right companies you know benefit commercially from it and then feed back into the project and that's what we're mentioning the word you get almost rethink and reimagine some of these things like the Equifax disaster yeah I think it's pretty man no breathing most tech people I really seen as as viable like absolutely it's gonna happen so there's a nice trajectory vision that people are buying into because it's somewhat you can see it hanging together playing out technically what are some of the things going on the project can you share with the folks watching about some things that you're doing to get there faster what's going on with the community with some of the issues with concerns how do people get involved take some time to go tobut deep words of the project so we're not a you know an RD kind of free thinking kind of thing we're about get writing code and shipping and getting into production right so hyper ledger fabric just hit a one dot oh that was a signal from the developers that this code is ready to be run in production systems and for you to track digital assets right doesn't by far does not mean it's the end of the road it's the end of chapter one right but at least it's a place where we you know the kind of the clear intent is let's make this actually usable by enterprises the other projects we've got eight different projects total at hyper ledger some of them even compete with each other right but we're driving all of them to get to a one dot oh and over time all of them talk about how they relate to each other in kind of complimentary ways what's some of the profile developers you're getting because some people always ask I know what should I get involved what can I sink my teeth into what are some of the meaty kind of things that people are doing with it who the persona that that are coming in these enterprise developers they more traditional full-stack developers can you give a range of some of the persona attributes because this is early code still I mean this whole space is still pretty early when it comes to understanding how to use these technologies especially at scale kind of at a DevOps scale a lot of the people first coming into the tech community now are fairly advanced right are kind of the whiz kids right but we're seeing that gradually broad broaden out we now are at a point where we could use developers coming in and writing sample applications right we could use people helping us with documentation we're developing training materials that will be creative commons-licensed so everybody will be able to deliver those and as they find bugs or add features to the training they can do that too we can really use anybody all right so folks watching get involved okay get any white spaces you might want to tease them out with that you see happening obviously mentioned tracking digital assets data is a stress that's cool anything that's going on with data probably is a digital asset but you'd agree what's some of the things that people could get motivated can you share any insight that you might have that would motivate someone to jump in I think any any industry has these challenges of weaving their systems together with other businesses and then trying to do that in a way that holds each other.you account right this is a system for building systems of record between organizations right and you know you running a database to me running a database we don't get there on our own we only get there by working with consortio by working in as a community to actually build these systems and so I'd say every every business has that challenge whether they're engineers have felt free to go in and try to tackle that extranet days when you see people building citizen networks similar concept where blockchain is one big happy family collaborative network all right final question for you kind of shooting for a little bit what do you expect to happen community any thoughts on some of the goals you have is executive director obviously you got some hackathons for good we'll see blockchain being applied to some real things with one dot out what do you see rolling out which some of your goals I massively grow the developer community both the well you know the one end of the spectrum which is the the whiz kids the hardcore developers to you know move forward on a kind of the leading edge of that but really we've got to bring you know hundred thousand developers into this space or the next couple years just to meet the demand that's there in the industry for that town alright so if I'm a now an executive as a hey I saw this great Cuban in friens awesome go get involved what how did someone get involved is just jump standard community model just jump in what advice would you give someone if they want to engage and participate for every one of our projects if you give gave it an hour you'd get to a running you know instance of that software right so fabric or sawtooth within an hour you should ever running for node instance that you can start writing chain code two which is the smart contract language right and and then from there getting involved in the community as a matter of joining mailing list joining our rocket chat channels rocket chats an alternative to slack that we actually prefer and I and I think you'll find a really welcoming community of other devs who want to tell you about what the projects are and want to help you kind of climb that learning curve one of the comments just enough good note here is that Christina gave him the key no she says code can shape culture you've been in the industry a long time you've seen the wave you've been on the shoulders of others and now as the open source goes to the next level how is code gonna shape the culture in your opinion actually people started working together to take that I would say that almost I'm not a moon shot but it's really more of an imperative that culture will be changed inclusion else is huge your thoughts on code shaping culture so we've we've had a decline in trust in institutions in the United States and worldwide not just in the last seven months since November but actually for the last 20 years there's Edelman does this survey every year where they ask you your trust in brands your trust in government your trust in the process the fairness of society and for 20 years that's been on a straight-line decline to the point where we ask ourselves like can you trust any level of government can you trust businesses to look out for your interest the answer almost generically is going to be no this is a technology that can save us from this is a technology that we I believe can help us define the rules of the game help us build society but then actually automate and implement that in a way that doesn't require us to have to bribe an official or curry favor with a school official to get our kid into that school or anything like that this is a way to try I think to make the world more accountable and more fair and open source has that inclusive and staying away from the gerrymander and I love the quote it's so confusing now it's like who do you ask where's the source of truth and it used to be RTFM and check the source code now it's not only there is no manual who is the source fake news all these bots means kind of crazy so this is that a call to arms the open source I think it is I think it really is the trust as a service ok Brian thanks so much for come on if you appreciate it Thank You director for the hyper ledger project super important project really a game changer changing the face of capitalism also continuing the trend accelerate open source I'm Shaun Frechette for more live coverage from the queue after this short break

(soft rock music) >> Announcer: Live from Los Angeles, it's theCUBE. Covering Open Source Summit North America 2017. Brought to you by the Linux Foundation and Red Hat. >> Hello everyone, welcome to a special Cube coverage here in Los Angeles, California for The Linux Foundation's Open Source Summit in North America. I'm John Furrier, co-host of The Cube. This week I'll be co-hosting with Jeff Frick and Stu Miniman who will be here shortly. He's out getting data from the keynotes and scouring the community for information. Two days of coverage of line up here. Open source is changing the world. More than ever, open source is continuing to accelerate. Over 23 million developers now actively programming with open source. Where the world economy is now based on open source, relies on open source, and where open source and code is changing culture. Jeff, had a great keynote from the Linux Foundation open source community, and really this is an accumulation of many, many years of coverage for us in the developer community. Kind of sitting above all the different communities like Stack Overflow, all the different source foundational communities: Open Stack Summit, Cooper Netty's, KubeCon, now CNCF, a variety of other shows, and obviously industry shows. And this is now, we're seeing where open source is becoming so mainstream on a global scale, we're seeing something unprecedented in the history of the computer industry and that is the role of open source in society. And I think the number one message we're seeing is that the Linux software has been around for 25 plus years. Linus Torvalds was on stage today kind of like reminiscing. He's been Time Man of the Year, he's won the Nobel Prize in Computer Science, the Millennial Award I think it's called. Essentially the top award. 17th most important person in this decade. Linux is now a main force. People are relying on open source, and then look no further than the Equifax pact that has changed 150 plus million people in terms of their, potentially identity fraud out there. It's from open source software, so you're starting to see the reliance of open source, where a sustainable ecosystem is continuing to grow, but security is a concern, and which projects to join. There's so much action, I called it open bar and open source. There's so much goodness flowing in from Google, IBM, you name the companies out there. People are being paid to learn and write code at this point in history. This is a historic moment for the open source community. As society starts to be molded by the shape of code in the keynote they call it a Do-Acracy. For doers and builders who are changing democracy on a global scale. This is the big theme and obviously a slew of announcements on a project basis: Certification for Cooper Netty's, new people joining, the CNCF and a variety of different projects. But certainly from our standpoint and theCUBE, we covered a lot of the game of this past eight years. Certainly the Cloud and big data, and the software ecosystem. Software-defined Data Center to software eating the world, Data Science eating the world. This is only going to continue with things like Blockchain, virtual reality. And as fake news and bought networks in the cloud continuing to change the notion of what the source is, not just source code, source of information. More than ever, the role of communities will play a front and center role in all of this. >> Yeah I think that's as big of a deal as the software piece, John, is the role of communities that open source creates. And it's a different way of thinking about things. It's a different way of trying to get more innovation. It's acknowledging that the smartest people aren't necessarily in your four walls. So it's really an attitude, but I want to get your take 'cause there's a couple models of stewardship in the open source world. We're here at Open Source Summit in L.A. Linux Foundation event. Linux Foundation is taking on more and more of the stewardship of many of these projects, kind of bringing it under one roof. We see another model where the stewardship is kind of driven by one particular company, right, that's trying to build a commercial business around an open source stack, but there's a couple companies that have become almost the defacto steward for a new and evolving open source space. How do you see the pros and the cons against those two models. Ya know it's great is you got a great steward, it's maybe not so great is the steward is not so terrific and you get a conflict between the steward of the technology and the actual open source project. >> Well, Jeff, and this is the fundamental question on everyone's mind here, as we continue to see the communities grow. And also the scale out of communities as well as the number of overall lines of code. So a couple of key things, one is: We call it the ruling class, that's the elephant in the room here at the show is, we see it in politics, identity politics shaping our national level and certainly on a global scale. China blocking all block chain, ICOs, and all virtual currencies as of today. You're starting to see the intersection of geopolitics with code. Where the notion of a democracy, or democratization, or do-acracy, as one of the speakers has called it. You can think of code, lines of code, as a vote. You write a line of code, that's a vote into an ecosystem. And we're starting to see these notion of distributed labor, distributed control changing the face of capitalism. Ya know, it's really happening, and the value that corporations are creating in this new model is a real dynamic. And really what's happening is the change from a ruling class, even in the software world. The success of open source has always been based upon self-governance. Self-governance implies a group collective that manages and approves things. That group collective, some would argue, has not been inclusive over the years. Certainly the role of women in tech has been an issue. And so what you have developing is the potential for a ruling class of what shapes the future culture. Certainly there's a no-brainer with women in tech that there should be more women in tech because half the people in the world are women. They're users of software. Software is going to be relied on by all aspects of our world. Not just in Earth but also in Space. So, the notion of ruling class is changing and the inclusion is a huge deal. Onboarding new people. Building on individual successes, and building it together as a group relies on inclusion. It relies on inlcusion of people, and requires inclusion of how the self-governance goes forward. And again, this is a major concept in this world as it evolves because like I said, open source is relied on, people are leaning on it at a tier one level. Software that's powering the telescope in the North Pole, in the Antarctic to Space stations all use Linux. And this is, again, what we're seeing. Getting technology in the hands so people can use code to shape culture. That is ultimately a big thing, we're at a tipping point right now, were at an inflection point, whatever you want to call it. Open source is continuing to grow, and that culture-shaping notion of code equals culture, is really what it's all about, and the role of community is more important than ever. And inclusion is the number one factor in my opinion. >> The other interesting thing to get your take, John, is Android. So Linux has been around for a long time, everybody knows about Linux, and there was lots of flavors and it all kind of aggregated. Android is really growing as a significant factor, and I think it was announced here that Samsung has now joined the project. And there's a really interesting little gizmo now that you can take your Samsung phone, stick it in a docking station, and have it power a big giant screen and a keyboard. And so, ya know, as Android has developed as the power in the handheld devices, it's closer and closer, it's not surpassing what we have in these things. It's another big kind of shot in the arm towards the open source ecosystem that really wasn't as significant as it is today. >> Well I mean the Android Operating System is again, just an operating system in the minds of the tech world. Obviously consumers use it, device, huge market share iOS Android and even other operating systems. Who knows, maybe it'll be the year of Linux on the phone, at some point. But you're starting to see software powering devices. This is the internet of things phenomenon. This is where you start to see trends that build out of that notion, like Blockchain, like A.I. are going to start impacting lives. And that's one thing that Linus Torvalds was saying on stage was, the most rewarding thing in his career with all the accolades aside; the fact that he's had an impact on people's lives has been the number one thing that motivates him. That's what motivates most people. So I would say that the Android significance is one of pure numbers. More market share, more penetration for the user experience. And the user experience is a cultural issue. Back to culture equals code. And, inclusively powering everyone to get involved and be part of it, either as a user or a participant in the community or a coder, really is about deciding the future, and if people do not get involved and are not included, then the ruling class will decide what's best for the culture, and that is not the theme here today. The theme here in open source for the next level is letting the code and the technologists in an open collaborative self-governing way be in communities, be inclusive and shape the culture, letting the code shape the culture. And Android, again, is another straw in the camel's back that allows for more penetration and more influence. More relevance, and continued relevance of technology. Providers, coders, communities and certainly individuals. And again, collective intelligence is a group phenomenon. That is a community powered theme. That is what's going on here and again, this is to me, is very radical disruption to the global society. >> Get your take John, 'cause then you get kind of forking and things kind of move and groove, it's kind of like a river, finds another path, right. And you had the container and docker really drove a lot of activation on the container side. Google comes out strong with Cooper Netty's, another open source project that we just heard at the VMworld a week ago. Pivotal get on stage with Michael Dell and Pat Gelsinger talking about kind of a new derivation that they're kicking out that's not Cooper Netty's. I forget what it's called, a different, cube-something >> John: PKS. >> PKS. >> John: A little container service. >> Continues to evolve and kind of fork. So what's your take on kind of how these things continue to morph. >> Well that's a good point, I mean you're talking about vendors in industry. Industry is a term that they use here it's kind of a polite term for saying companies with a vol for capitalism. And capitalism, one of the factors involved in what's going on here: corporate value is not a bad thing. But capitalism driving the culture is not what it wants. Distributed labor, distributed control, changing the face and capitalism is about the role of open source. So there's a role for industry and corporations. The issue is that as vendors, in the old model, which is put stuff out there, control the standards bodies and influence the industry through their proprietary mechanisms. That's changed and they don't have the proprietary nature but they can try to use their muscle and money. That's not happening anymore, and I think forking, as you mentioned, the ability to take a piece of code and build on it, whether it's a framework or libraries out there. And writing custom code is what Jim Zemlin was talking about with us is the code sandwich. That 90 percent of the software out there is open source and only ten percent is highly differentiated. That is the programming model. So, to me I think forking is a wonderful democracy dynamic in open source. If you don't like it, you can fork it. And if it doesn't make it, then the Do-Acracy voted with their code. So, this a term you call voting with your code. We can use the term in marketing called people vote with their wallet, vote with their feet. In communities, in open source they vote with their code. So to me, forking if a good thing that provides great opportunity for innovation. The issue of vendors pushing stuff out there is what I call the calling the bullshit factor. Communities that are vibrant and sustainable they can call bullshit on this right away. So, companies can't operate on the old model, they have to ingratiate in, they have to make real contribution, and they have to be community citizens. Otherwise you're going to get called out for pushing their vendorware. And that is interesting, and I'm not saying that they are doing that but Pivotal is a great example. Ya know, Pivotal put out a pretty good service, makes Cooper Netty's manageable, Google Cloud engines tied directly to it. So any updates coming from the Google Cloud engine gets updated into Pivotal, that's the value to users. If it sucks, if it doesn't work well, people won't use it. So, voting with your code, voting with your feet, is what people will do. So there's now a new level of triangulation or a heat shield if you will from vendor dominance, throwing their muscle around and even Microsoft is here with Linux. It's a huge testament to the success of Linux, and that's really what it's all about. >> Yeah, Microsoft is here, Intel is here. A lot of big companies are here and a lot of, in the early days, people had issues with the big companies coming in. But, clearly they're a huge part of the ecosystem, they write big checks, they help fund nice events like this. So the last question for you John, before we get into it: Two days of wall to wall coverage, what are you looking for? What are some of the questions that you've got on top of your mind that we'd hope to get some answers over the next couple weeks, or couple days, excuse me. >> Well I saw a great quote up on stage, was called May The Source Be With You. And, it was kind of a Star Wars reference: May the force be with, may the source code be with you, if you will. I'm looking for things that changed people's lives, 'cause the theme in open source now is the reliance of code in all aspects of global life here on earth and in space now as we see it. That the quality of life for society depends on open source. And again, 90 percent of most great software is written in open source, ten percent is differentiated and unique. That's the model they call the code sandwich. It's easy to code, it's easier to get involved. There's more communities that are robust and vibrant. If it impacts the quality of life, so that's one thing. The second thing I'm looking for is, we're looking at some of these new future trends and I've been really thinking a lot about lately as you know in theCUBE, is the role of Blockchains and these really disrupted technologies. We've started to see the power of the user in communities where there's technologies empowering the individual at the same time creating a group dynamic where the groups can build. So, individual success can be part of something that contributes to a group that can build on top of it. That's an open source flywheel that works great. I'm looking for Blockchain, I'm looking for those new technologies that are going to be in that vein. And of course, the outcome is: Does it impact lives, does it make the quality of life better? >> Alright. Well you heard it there, we'll be here for two days of wall to wall coverage. We're at the Open Source Summit North America in L.A. It's pretty funny, right next to Staples Center. John, I don't think we've ever been right downtown L.A. You're watching theCUBE, we'll be back with our next guest after this short break, thanks for watching. (light electronic music)