>> theCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies: "Creating technologies that drive human progress." >> Good late afternoon from Barcelona, Spain at the Theater of Barcelona. It's Lisa Martin and Dave Nicholson of "theCUBE" covering MWC23. This is our third day of continuous wall-to-wall coverage on theCUBE. And you know we're going to be here tomorrow as well. We've been having some amazing conversations about the ecosystem. And we're going to continue those conversations next. Honore Labourdette is here, the VP global partner, Ecosystem Success Team, Telco Media and Entertainment at Red Hat. And Tony Jeffries joins us as well, a Senior Director of Product Management, Telecom Systems Business at Dell. Welcome to the theCUBE. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Great to have both of you here. So we're going to be talking about the evolution of the telecom stack. We've been talking a lot about disaggregation the last couple of days. Honore, starting with you, talk about the evolution of the telecom stock. You were saying before we went live this is your 15th at least MWC. So you've seen a lot of evolution, but what are some of the things you're seeing right now? >> Well, I think the interesting thing about disaggregation, which is a key topic, right? 'Cause it's so relative to 5G and the 5G core and the benefits and the features of 5G core around disaggregation. But one thing we have to remember, when you disaggregate, you separate things. You have to bring those things back together again in a different way. And that's predominantly what we're doing in our partnership with Dell, is we're bringing those disaggregated components back together in a cohesive way that takes advantage of the new technology, at the same time taking out the complexity and making it easier for our Telco customers to deploy and to scale and to get much more, accelerate the time to revenue. So the trend now is, what we're seeing is two things I would say. One is how do we solve for the complexity with the disaggregation? And how do we leverage the ecosystem as a partner in order to help solve for some of those challenges? >> Tony, jump on in, talk about what you guys announced last week, Dell and Red Hat, and how it's addressing the complexities that Honore was saying, "Hey, they're there." >> Yeah. You know, our customers, our operators are saying, "Hey, I want disaggregation." "I want competition in the market." But at the same time who's going to support all this disaggregation, right? And so at the end of the day, there's going to be an operator that's going to have to figure this out. They're going to have an SLA that they're going to have to meet. And so they're going to want to go with a best-in-class partner with Red Hat and Dell, in terms of our infrastructure and their software together as one combined engineered system. And that's what we call a Dell Telecom infrastructure block for Red Hat. And so at the end of the day, things may go wrong, and if they do, who are they going to call for that support? And that's also really a key element of an engineered system, is this experience that they get both with Red Hat and with Dell together supporting the customer as one. Which is really important to solve this disaggregated problem that can arise from a disaggregated open network situation, yeah. >> So what is the market, the go to market motion look like? People have loyalties in the IT space to technologies that they've embraced and been successful with for years and years. So you have folks in the marketplace who are diehard, you know, dyed red, Red Hat folks. Is it primarily a pull from them? How does that work? How do you approach that to your, what are your end user joint customers? What does that look like from your perspective? >> Sure, well, interestingly enough both Red Hat and Dell have been in the marketplace for a very long time, right? So we do have the brand with those Telco customers for these solutions. What we're seeing with this solution is, it's an emerging market. It's an emerging market for a new technology. So there's an opportunity for both Red Hat and Dell together to leverage our brands with those customers with no friction in the marketplace as we go to market together. So our field sales teams will be motivated to, you know, take advantage of the solution for their customers, as will the Dell team. And I'll let Tony speak to the Dell, go to market. >> Yeah. You know, so we really co-sell together, right? We're the key partners. Dell will end up fulfilling that order, right? We send these engineered systems through our factories and we send that out either directly to a customer or to a OTEL lab, like an intermediate lab where we can further refine and customize that offer for that particular customer. And so we got a lot of options there, but we're essentially co-selling. And Dell is fulfilling that from an infrastructure perspective, putting Red Hat software on top and the licensing for that support. So it's a really good mix. >> And I think, if I may, one of the key differentiators is the actual capabilities that we're bringing together inside of this pre-integrated solution. So it includes the Red Hat OpenShift which is the container software, but we also add our advanced cluster management as well as our Ansible automation. And then Dell adds their orchestration capability along with the features and functionalities of the platform. And we put that together and we offer capability, remote automation orchestration and management capabilities that again reduces the operating expense, reduces the complexity, allows for easy scale. So it's, you know, certainly it's all about the partnership but it's also the capabilities of the combined technology. >> I was just going to ask about some of the numbers, and you mentioned some of them. Reduction of TCO I imagine is also a big capability that this solution enables besides reducing OpEx. Talk about the TCO reduction. 'Cause I know there's some numbers there that Dell and Red Hat have already delivered to the market. >> Yeah. You know, so these infrastructure blocks are designed specifically for Core, or for RAN, or for the Edge. We're starting out initially in the Core, but we've done some market research with a company called ACG. And ACG has looked at day zero, day one and day two TCO, FTE hours saved. And we're looking at over 40 to 50% TCO savings over you know, five year period, which is quite significant in terms of cost savings at a TCO level. But also we have a lot of numbers around power consumption and savings around power consumption. But also just that experience for our operator that says, hey, I'm going to go to one company to get the best in class from Red Hat and Dell together. That saves a lot of time in procurement and that entire ordering process as well. So you get a lot of savings that aren't exactly seen in the FTE hours around TCO, but just in that overall experience by talking to one company to get the best of both from both Red Hat and Dell together. >> I think the comic book character Charlie Brown once said, "The most discouraging thing in the world is having a lot of potential." (laughing) >> Right. >> And so when we talk about disaggregating and then reaggregating or reintegrating, that means choice. >> Tony: Yeah. >> How does an operator approach making that choice? Because, yeah, it sounds great. We have this integration lab and you have all these choices. Well, how do I decide, how does a person decide? This is a question for Honore from a Red Hat perspective, what's the secret sauce that you believe differentiates the Red Hat-infused stack versus some other assemblage of gear? >> Well, there's a couple of key characteristics, and the one that I think is most prevalent is that we're open, right? So "open" is in Red Hat's DNA because we're an open source technology company, and with that open source technology and that open platform, our customers can now add workloads. They have options to choose the workloads that they want to run on that open source platform. As they choose those workloads, they can be confident that those workloads have been certified and validated on our platform because we have a very robust ecosystem of ISVs that have already completed that process with open source, with Red Hat OpenShift. So then we take the Red Hat OpenShift and we put it on the Dell platform, which is market leader platform, right? Combine those two things, the customers can be confident that they can put those workloads on the combined platform that we're offering and that those workloads would run. So again, it goes back to making it simpler, making it easy to procure, easy to run workloads, easy to deploy, easy to operate. And all of that of course equates to saving time always equates to saving money. >> Yeah. Absolutely. >> Oh, I thought you wanted to continue. >> No, I think Honore sort of, she nailed it. You know, Red Hat is so dominant in 5G, and what they're doing in the market, especially in the Core and where we're going into the RAN, you know, next steps are to validate those workloads, those workload vendors on top of a stack. And the Red Hat leader in the Core is key, right? It's instant credibility in the core market. And so that's one of the reasons why we, Dell, want to partner with with Red Hat for the core market and beyond. We're going to be looking at not only Core but moving into RAN very soon. But then we do, we take that validated workload on top of that to optimize that workload and then be able to instantiate that in the core and the RAN. It's just a really streamlined, good experience for our operators. At the end of the day, we want happy customers in between our mutual customer base. And that's what you get whenever you do that combined stack together. >> Were operators, any operators, and you don't have to mention them by name, involved in the evolution of the infra blocks? I'm just curious how involved they were in helping to co-develop this. I imagine they were to some degree. >> Yeah, I could take that one. So, in doing so, yeah, we can't be myopic and just assume that we nailed it the first time, right? So yeah, we do work with partners all the way up and down the stack. A lot of our engineering work with Red Hat also brings in customer experience that is key to ensure that you're building and designing the right architecture for the Core. I would like to use the names, I don't know if I should, but a lot of those names are big names that are leaders in our industry. But yeah, their footprints, their fingerprints are all over those design best practices, those architectural designs that we build together. And then we further that by doing those validated workloads on top of that. So just to really prove the point that it's optimized for the Core, RAN, Edge kind of workload. >> And it's a huge added value for Red Hat to have a partner like Dell who can take all of those components, take the workload, take the Red Hat software, put it on the platform, and deliver that out to the customers. That's really, you know, a key part of the partnership and the value of the partnership because nobody really does that better than Dell. That center of excellence around delivery and support. >> Can you share any feedback from any of those nameless operators in terms of... I'm even kind of wondering what the catalyst was for the infra block. Was it operators saying, "Ah, we have these challenges here"? Was it the evolution of the Telco stack and Dell said, "We can come in with Red Hat and solve this problem"? And what's been some of their feedback? >> Yeah, it really comes down to what Honore said about, okay, you know, when we are looking at day zero, which is primarily your design, how much time savings can we do by creating that stack for them, right? We have industry experts designing that Core stack that's optimized for different levels of spectrum. When we do that we save a lot of time in terms of FTE hours for our architects, our operators, and then it goes into day one, right? Which is the deployment aspect for saving tons of hours for our operators by being able to deploy this. Speed to market is key. That ultimately ends up in, you know, faster time to revenue for our customers, right? So it's, when they see that we've already done the pre-work that they don't have to, that's what really resonates for them in terms of that, yeah. >> Honore, Lisa and I happen to be veterans of the Cloud native space, and what we heard from a lot of the folks in that ecosystem is that there is a massive hunger for developers to be able to deploy and manage and orchestrate environments that consist of Cloud native application infrastructure, microservices. >> Right. >> What we've heard here is that 5G equals Cloud native application stacks. Is that a fair assessment of the environment? And what are you seeing from a supply and demand for that kind of labor perspective? Is there still a hunger for those folks who develop in that space? >> Well, there is, because the very nature of an open source, Kubernetes-based container platform, which is what OpenShift is, the very nature of it is to open up that code so that developers can have access to the code to develop the workloads to the platform, right? And so, again, the combination of bringing together the Dell infrastructure with the Red Hat software, it doesn't change anything. The developer, the development community still has access to that same container platform to develop to, you know, Cloud native types of application. And you know, OpenShift is Red Hat's hybrid Cloud platform. So it runs on-prem, it runs in the public Cloud, it runs at the edge, it runs at the far edge. So any of the development community that's trying to develop Cloud native applications can develop it on this platform as they would if they were developing on an OpenShift platform in the public Cloud. >> So in "The Graduate", the advice to the graduate was, "Plastics." Plastics. As someone who has more children than I can remember, I forget how many kids I have. >> Four. >> That's right, I have four. That's right. (laughing) Three in college and grad school already at this point. Cloud native, I don't know. Kubernetes definitely a field that's going to, it's got some legs? >> Yes. >> Okay. So I can get 'em off my payroll quickly. >> Honore: Yes, yes. (laughing) >> Okay, good to know. Good to know. Any thoughts on that open Cloud native world? >> You know, there's so many changes that's going to happen in Kubernetes and services that you got to be able to update quickly. CICD, obviously the topic is huge. How quickly can we keep these systems up to date with new releases, changes? That's a great thing about an engineered system is that we do provide that lifecycle management for three to five years through this engagement with our customers. So we're constantly keeping them up with the latest and the greatest. >> David: Well do those customers have that expertise in-house, though? Do they have that now? Or is this a seismic cultural shift in those environments? >> Well, you know, they do have a lot of that experience, but it takes a lot of that time, and we're taking that off of their plate and putting that within us on our system, within our engineered system, and doing that automatically for them. And so they don't have to check in and try to understand what the release certification matrix is. Every quarter we're providing that to them. We're communicating out to the operator, telling them what's coming up latest and greatest, not only in terms of the software but the hardware and how to optimize it all together. That's the beauty of these systems. These are five year relationships with our operators that we're providing that lifecycle management end to end, for years to come. >> Lisa: So last question. You talked about joint GTM availability. When can operators get their hands on this? >> Yes. Yes. It's currently slated for early September release. >> Lisa: Awesome. So sometime this year? >> Yes. >> Well guys, thank you so much for talking with us today about Dell, Red Hat, what you're doing to really help evolve the telecom stack. We appreciate it. Next time come back with a customer, we can dig into it. That'd be fun. >> We sure will, absolutely. That may happen today actually, a little bit later. Not to let the cat out the bag, but good news. >> All right, well, geez, you're going to want to stick around. Thank you so much for your time. For our guests and for Dave Nicholson. This is Lisa Martin of theCUBE at MWC23 from Barcelona, Spain. We'll be back after a short break. (calm music)

>> Narrator: TheCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies. Creating technologies that drive human progress. (light airy music) >> Hi, everybody, welcome back to the Fira in Barcelona. My name is Dave Vellante. I'm here with my co-host Dave Nicholson. Lisa Martin is in the house. John Furrier is pounding the news from our Palo Alto studio. We are super excited to be talking about cloud at the edge, what that means. Charles Tsai is here. He's the Senior Director of product management at Dell Technologies and Peter Fetterolf is the Chief Technology Officer at ACG Business Analytics, a firm that goes deep into the TCO and the telco space, among other things. Gents, welcome to theCUBE. Thanks for coming on. Thank you. >> Good to be here. >> Yeah, good to be here. >> So I've been in search all week of the elusive next wave of monetization for the telcos. We know they make great money on connectivity, they're really good at that. But they're all talking about how they can't let this happen again. Meaning we can't let the over the top vendors yet again, basically steal our cookies. So we're going to not mess it up this time. We're going to win in the monetization. Charles, where are those monetization opportunities? Obviously at the edge, the telco cloud at the edge. What is that all about and where's the money? >> Well, Dave, I think from a Dell's perspective, what we want to be able to enable operators is a solution that enable them to roll out services much quicker, right? We know there's a lot of innovation around IoT, MEG and so on and so forth, but they continue to rely on traditional technology and way of operations is going to take them years to enable new services. So what Dell is doing is now, creating the entire vertical stack from the hardware through CAST and automation that enable them, not only to push out services very quickly, but operating them using cloud principles. >> So it's when you say the entire vertical stack, it's the integrated hardware components with like, for example, Red Hat on top- >> Right. >> Or a Wind River? >> That's correct. >> Okay, and then open API, so the developers can create workloads, I presume data companies. We just had a data conversation 'cause that was part of the original stack- >> That's correct. >> So through an open ecosystem, you can actually sort of recreate that value, correct? >> That's correct. >> Okay. >> So one thing Dell is doing, is we are offering an infrastructure block where we are taking over the overhead of certifying every release coming from the Red Hat or the Wind River of the world, right? We want telcos to spend their resources on what is going to generate them revenue. Not the overhead of creating this cloud stack. >> Dave, I remember when we went through this in the enterprise and you had companies like, you know, IBM with the AS400 and the mainframe saying it's easier to manage, which it was, but it's still, you know, it was subsumed by the open systems trend. >> Yeah, yeah. And I think that's an important thing to probe on, is this idea of what is, what exactly does it mean to be cloud at the edge in the telecom space? Because it's a much used term. >> Yeah. >> When we talk about cloud and edge, in sort of generalized IT, but what specifically does it mean? >> Yeah, so when we talk about telco cloud, first of all it's kind of different from what you're thinking about public cloud today. And there's a couple differences. One, if you look at the big hyperscaler public cloud today, they tend to be centralized in huge data centers. Okay, telco cloud, there are big data centers, but then there's also regional data centers. There are edge data centers, which are your typical like access central offices that have turned data centers, and then now even cell sites are becoming mini data centers. So it's distributed. I mean like you could have like, even in a country like say Germany, you'd have 30,000 soul sites, each one of them being a data center. So it's a very different model. Now the other thing I want to go back to the question of monetization, okay? So how do you do monetization? The only way to do that, is to be able to offer new services, like Charles said. How do you offer new services? You have to have an open ecosystem that's going to be very, very flexible. And if we look at where telcos are coming from today, they tend to be very inflexible 'cause they're all kind of single vendor solutions. And even as we've moved to virtualization, you know, if you look at packet core for instance, a lot of them are these vertical stacks of say a Nokia or Ericson or Huawei where you know, you can't really put any other vendors or any other solutions into that. So basically the idea is this kind of horizontal architecture, right? Where now across, not just my central data centers, but across my edge data centers, which would be traditionally my access COs, as well as my cell sites. I have an open environment. And we're kind of starting with, you know, packet core obviously with, and UPFs being distributed, but now open ran or virtual ran, where I can have CUs and DUs and I can split CUs, they could be at the soul site, they could be in edge data centers. But then moving forward, we're going to have like MEG, which are, you know, which are new kinds of services, you know, could be, you know, remote cars it could be gaming, it could be the Metaverse. And these are going to be a multi-vendor environment. So one of the things you need to do is you need to have you know, this cloud layer, and that's what Charles was talking about with the infrastructure blocks is helping the service providers do that, but they still own their infrastructure. >> Yeah, so it's still not clear to me how the service providers win that game but we can maybe come back to that because I want to dig into TCO a little bit. >> Sure. >> Because I have a lot of friends at Dell. I don't have a lot of friends at HPE. I've always been critical when they take an X86 server put a name on it that implies edge and they throw it over the fence to the edge, that's not going to work, okay? We're now seeing, you know we were just at the Dell booth yesterday, you did the booth crawl, which was awesome. Purpose-built servers for this environment. >> Charles: That's right. >> So there's two factors here that I want to explore in TCO. One is, how those next gen servers compare to the previous gen, especially in terms of power consumption but other factors and then how these sort of open ran, open ecosystem stacks compared to proprietary stacks. Peter, can you help us understand those? >> Yeah, sure. And Charles can comment on this as well. But I mean there, there's a couple areas. One is just moving the next generation. So especially on the Intel side, moving from Ice Lake to the Sapphire Rapids is a big deal, especially when it comes to the DU. And you know, with the radios, right? There's the radio unit, the RU, and then there's the DU the distributed unit, and the CU. The DU is really like part of the radio, but it's virtualized. When we moved from Ice lake to Sapphire Rapids, which is third generation intel to fourth generation intel, we're literally almost doubling the performance in the DU. And that's really important 'cause it means like almost half the number of servers and we're talking like 30, 40, 50,000 servers in some cases. So, you know, being able to divide that by two, that's really big, right? In terms of not only the the cost but all the TCO and the OpEx. Now another area that's really important, when I was talking moving from these vertical silos to the horizontal, the issue with the vertical silos is, you can't place any other workloads into those silos. So it's kind of inefficient, right? Whereas when we have the horizontal architecture, now you can place workloads wherever you want, which basically also means less servers but also more flexibility, more service agility. And then, you know, I think Charles can comment more, specifically on the XR8000, some things Dell's doing, 'cause it's really exciting relative to- >> Sure. >> What's happening in there. >> So, you know, when we start looking at putting compute at the edge, right? We recognize the first thing we have to do is understand the environment we are going into. So we spend with a lot of time with telcos going to the south side, going to the edge data center, looking at operation, how do the engineer today deal with maintenance replacement at those locations? Then based on understanding the operation constraints at those sites, we create innovation and take a traditional server, remodel it to make sure that we minimize the disruption to the operations, right? Just because we are helping them going from appliances to open compute, we do not want to disrupt what is have been a very efficient operation on the remote sites. So we created a lot of new ideas and develop them on general compute, where we believe we can save a lot of headache and disruptions and still provide the same level of availability, resiliency, and redundancy on an open compute platform. >> So when we talk about open, we don't mean generic? Fair? See what I mean? >> Open is more from the software workload perspective, right? A Dell server can run any type of workload that customer intend. >> But it's engineered for this? >> Environment. >> Environment. >> That's correct. >> And so what are some of the environmental issues that are dealt with in the telecom space that are different than the average data center? >> The most basic one, is in most of the traditional cell tower, they are deployed within cabinets instead of racks. So they are depth constraints that you just have no access to the rear of the chassis. So that means on a server, is everything you need to access, need to be in the front, nothing should be in the back. Then you need to consider how labor union come into play, right? There's a lot of constraint on who can go to a cell tower and touch power, who can go there and touch compute, right? So we minimize all that disruption through a modular design and make it very efficient. >> So when we took a look at XR8000, literally right here, sitting on the desk. >> Uh-huh. >> Took it apart, don't panic, just pulled out some sleds and things. >> Right, right. >> One of the interesting demonstrations was how it compared to the size of a shoe. Now apparently you hired someone at Dell specifically because they wear a size 14 shoe, (Charles laughs) so it was even more dramatic. >> That's right. >> But when you see it, and I would suggest that viewers go back and take a look at that segment, specifically on the hardware. You can see exactly what you just referenced. This idea that everything is accessible from the front. Yeah. >> So I want to dig in a couple things. So I want to push back a little bit on what you were saying about the horizontal 'cause there's the benefit, if you've got the horizontal infrastructure, you can run a lot more workloads. But I compare it to the enterprise 'cause I, that was the argument, I've made that argument with converged infrastructure versus say an Oracle vertical stack, but it turned out that actually Oracle ran Oracle better, okay? Is there an analog in telco or is this new open architecture going to be able to not only service the wide range of emerging apps but also be as resilient as the proprietary infrastructure? >> Yeah and you know, before I answer that, I also want to say that we've been writing a number of white papers. So we have actually three white papers we've just done with Dell looking at infrastructure blocks and looking at vertical versus horizontal and also looking at moving from the previous generation hardware to the next generation hardware. So all those details, you can find the white papers, and you can find them either in the Dell website or at the ACG research website >> ACGresearch.com? >> ACG research. Yeah, if you just search ACG research, you'll find- >> Yeah. >> Lots of white papers on TCO. So you know, what I want to say, relative to the vertical versus horizontal. Yeah, obviously in the vertical side, some of those things will run well, I mean it won't have issues. However, that being said, as we move to cloud native, you know, it's very high performance, okay? In terms of the stack, whether it be a Red Hat or a VMware or other cloud layers, that's really become much more mature. It now it's all CNF base, which is really containerized, very high performance. And so I don't think really performance is an issue. However, my feeling is that, if you want to offer new services and generate new revenue, you're not going to do it in vertical stacks, period. You're going to be able to do a packet core, you'll be able to do a ran over here. But now what if I want to offer a gaming service? What if I want to do metaverse? What if I want to do, you have to have an environment that's a multi-vendor environment that supports an ecosystem. Even in the RAN, when we look at the RIC, and the xApps and the rApps, these are multi-vendor environments that's going to create a lot of flexibility and you can't do that if you're restricted to, I can only have one vendor running on this hardware. >> Yeah, we're seeing these vendors work together and create RICs. That's obviously a key point, but what I'm hearing is that there may be trade offs, but the incremental value is going to overwhelm that. Second question I have, Peter is, TCO, I've been hearing a lot about 30%, you know, where's that 30% come from? Is it Op, is it from an OpEx standpoint? Is it labor, is it power? Is it, you mentioned, you know, cutting the number of servers in half. If I can unpack the granularity of that TCO, where's the benefit coming from? >> Yeah, the answer is yes. (Peter and Charles laugh) >> Okay, we'll do. >> Yeah, so- >> One side that, in terms of, where is the big bang for the bucks? >> So I mean, so you really need to look at the white paper to see details, but definitely power, definitely labor, definitely reducing the number of servers, you know, reducing the CapEx. The other thing is, is as you move to this really next generation horizontal telco cloud, there's the whole automation and orchestration, that is a key component as well. And it's enabled by what Dell is doing. It's enabled by the, because the thing is you're not going to have end-to-end automation if you have all this legacy stuff there or if you have these vertical stacks where you can't integrate. I mean you can automate that part and then you have separate automation here, you separate. you need to have integrated automation and orchestration across the whole thing. >> One other point I would add also, right, on the hardware perspective, right? With the customized hardware, what we allow operator to do is, take out the existing appliance and push a edge optimized server without reworking the entire infrastructure. There is a significant saving where you don't have to rethink about what is my power infrastructure, right? What is my security infrastructure? The server is designed to leverage the existing, what is already there. >> How should telco, Charles, plan for this transformation? Are there specific best practices that you would recommend in terms of the operational model? >> Great question. I think first thing is do an inventory of what you have. Understand what your constraints are and then come to Dell, we will love to consult with you, based on our experience on the best practices. We know how to minimize additional changes. We know how to help your support engineer, understand how to shift appliance based operation to a cloud-based operation. >> Is that a service you offer? Is that a pre-sales freebie? What is maybe both? >> It's both. >> Yeah. >> It's both. >> Yeah. >> Guys- >> Just really quickly. >> We're going to wrap. >> The, yeah. Dave loves the TCO discussion. I'm always thinking in terms of, well how do you measure TCO when you're comparing something where you can't do something to an environment where you're going to be able to do something new? And I know that that's always the challenge in any kind of emerging market where things are changing, any? >> Well, I mean we also look at, not only TCO, but we look at overall business case. So there's basically service at GLD and revenue and then there's faster time to revenues. Well, and actually ACG, we actually have a platform called the BAE or Business Analytics Engine that's a very sophisticated simulation cloud-based platform, where we can actually look at revenue month by month. And we look at what's the impact of accelerating revenue by three months. By four months. >> So you're looking into- >> By six months- >> So you're forward looking. You're just not consistently- >> So we're not just looking at TCO, we're looking at the overall business case benefit. >> Yeah, exactly right. There's the TCO, which is the hard dollars. >> Right. >> CFO wants to see that, he or she needs to see that. But you got to, you can convince that individual, that there's a business case around it. >> Peter: Yeah. >> And then you're going to sign up for that number. >> Peter: Yeah. >> And they're going to be held to it. That's the story the world wants. >> At the end of the day, telcos have to be offered new services 'cause look at all the money that's been spent. >> Dave: Yeah, that's right. >> On investment on 5G and everything else. >> 0.5 trillion over the next seven years. All right, guys, we got to go. Sorry to cut you off. >> Okay, thank you very much. >> But we're wall to wall here. All right, thanks so much for coming on. >> Dave: Fantastic. >> All right, Dave Vellante, for Dave Nicholson. Lisa Martin's in the house. John Furrier in Palo Alto Studios. Keep it right there. MWC 23 live from the Fira in Barcelona. (light airy music)

(soft music) >> Announcer: TheCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies. Creating technologies that drive human progress. (upbeat music) >> Welcome back to Spain, everybody. We're here at the Fira in MWC23. Is just an amazing day. This place is packed. They said 80,000 people. I think it might even be a few more walk-ins. I'm Dave Vellante, Lisa Martin is here, David Nicholson. But right now we have the Analyst Hot Takes with three friends of theCUBE. Chris Lewis is back again with me in the co-host seat. Zeus Kerravala, analyst extraordinaire. Great to see you, Z. and Sarbjeet SJ Johal. Good to see you again, theCUBE contributor. And that's my new name for him. He says that is his nickname. Guys, thanks for coming back on. We got the all male panel, sorry, but it is what it is. So Z, is this the first time you've been on it at MWC. Take aways from the show, Hot Takes. What are you seeing? Same wine, new bottle? >> In a lot of ways, yeah. I mean, I was talking to somebody this earlier that if you had come from like MWC five years ago to this year, a lot of the themes are the same. Telco transformation, cloud. I mean, 5G is a little new. Sustainability is certainly a newer theme here. But I think it highlights just the difficulty I think the telcos have in making this transformation. And I think, in some ways, I've been unfair to them in some degree 'cause I've picked on them in the past for not moving fast enough. These are, you know, I think these kind of big transformations almost take like a perfect storm of things that come together to happen, right? And so, in the past, we had technologies that maybe might have lowered opex, but they're hard to deploy. They're vertically integrated. We didn't have the software stacks. But it appears today that between the cloudification of, you know, going to cloud native, the software stacks, the APIs, the ecosystems, I think we're actually in a position to see this industry finally move forward. >> Yeah, and Chris, I mean, you have served this industry for a long time. And you know, when you, when you do that, you get briefed as an analyst, you actually realize, wow, there's a lot of really smart people here, and they're actually, they have challenges, they're working through it. So Zeus was saying he's been tough on the industry. You know, what do you think about how the telcos have evolved in the last five years? >> I think they've changed enormously. I think the problem we have is we're always looking for the great change, the big step change, and there is no big step change in a way. What telcos deliver to us as individuals, businesses, society, the connectivity piece, that's changed. We get better and better and more reliable connectivity. We're shunting a load more capacity through. What I think has really changed is their attitude to their suppliers, their attitude to their partners, and their attitude to the ecosystem in which they play. Understanding that connectivity is not the end game. Connectivity is part of the emerging end game where it will include storage, compute, connect, and analytics and everything else. So I think the realization that they are not playing their own game anymore, it's a much more open game. And some things they will continue to do, some things they'll stop doing. We've seen them withdraw from moving into adjacent markets as much as we used to see. So a lot of them in the past went off to try and do movies, media, and a lot went way way into business IT stuff. They've mainly pulled back from that, and they're focusing on, and let's face it, it's not just a 5G show. The fixed environment is unbelievably important. We saw that during the pandemic. Having that fixed broadband connection using wifi, combining with cellular. We love it. But the problem as an industry is that the users often don't even know the connectivity's there. They only know when it doesn't work, right? >> If it's not media and it's not business services, what is it? >> Well, in my view, it will be enabling third parties to deliver the services that will include media, that will include business services. So embedding the connectivity all the way into the application that gets delivered or embedding it so the quality mechanism deliver the gaming much more accurately or, I'm not a gamer, so I can't comment on that. But no, the video quality if you want to have a high quality video will come through better. >> And those cohorts will pay for that value? >> Somebody will pay somewhere along the line. >> Seems fuzzy to me. >> Me too. >> I do think it's use case dependent. Like you look at all the work Verizon did at the Super Bowl this year, that's a perfect case where they could have upsold. >> Explain that. I'm not familiar with it. >> So Verizon provided all the 5G in the Super Bowl. They provided a lot of, they provided private connectivity for the coaches to talk to the sidelines. And that's a mission critical application, right? In the NFL, if one side can't talk, the other side gets shut down. You can't communicate with the quarterback or the coaches. There's a lot of risk at that. So, but you know, there's a case there, though, I think where they could have even made that fan facing. Right? And if you're paying 2000 bucks to go to a game, would you pay 50 bucks more to have a higher tier of bandwidth so you can post things on social? People that go there, they want people to know they were there. >> Every football game you go to, you can't use your cell. >> Analyst: Yeah, I know, right? >> All right, let's talk about developers because we saw the eight APIs come out. I think ISVs are going to be a big part of this. But it's like Dee Arthur said. Hey, eight's better than zero, I guess. Okay, so, but so the innovation is going to come from ISVs and developers, but what are your hot takes from this show and now day two, we're a day and a half in, almost two days in. >> Yeah, yeah. There's a thing that we have talked, I mentioned many times is skills gravity, right? Skills have gravity, and also, to outcompete, you have to also educate. That's another theme actually of my talks is, or my research is that to puts your technology out there to the practitioners, you have to educate them. And that's the only way to democratize your technology. What telcos have been doing is they have been stuck to the proprietary software and proprietary hardware for too long, from Nokia's of the world and other vendors like that. So now with the open sourcing of some of the components and a few others, right? And they're open source space and antenna, you know? Antennas are becoming software now. So with the invent of these things, which is open source, it helps us democratize that to the other sort of skirts of the practitioners, if you will. And that will bring in more applications first into the IOT space, and then maybe into the core sort of California, if you will. >> So what does a telco developer look like? I mean, all the blockchain developers and crypto developers are moving into generative AI, right? So maybe those worlds come together. >> You'd like to think though that the developers would understand everything's network centric today. So you'd like to think they'd understand that how the network responds, you know, you'd take a simple app like Zoom or something. If it notices the bandwidth changes, it should knock down the resolution. If it goes up it, then you can add different features and things and you can make apps a lot smarter that way. >> Well, G2 was saying today that they did a deal with Mercedes, you know this probably better than I do, where they're going to embed WebEx in the car. And if you're driving, it'll shut off the camera. >> Of course. >> I'm like, okay. >> I'll give you a better example though. >> But that's my point. Like, isn't there more that we can do? >> You noticed down on the SKT stand the little helicopter. That's a vertical lift helicopter. So it's an electric vertical lift helicopter. Just think of that for a second. And then think of the connectivity to control that, to securely control that. And then I was recently at an event with Zeus actually where we saw an air traffic control system where there was no people manning the tower. It was managed by someone remotely with all the cameras around them. So managing all of those different elements, we call it IOT, but actually it's way more than what we thought of as IOT. All those components connecting, communicating securely and safely. 'Cause I don't want that helicopter to come down on my head, do you? (men laugh) >> Especially if you're in there. (men laugh) >> Okay, so you mentioned sustainability. Everybody's talking about power. I don't know if you guys have a lot of experience around TCO, but I'm trying to get to, well, is this just because energy costs are so high, and then when the energy becomes cheap again, nobody's going to pay any attention to it? Or is this the real deal? >> So one of the issues around the, if we want to experience all that connectivity locally or that helicopter wants to have that connectivity, we have to ultimately build denser, more reliable networks. So there's a CapEx, we're going to put more base stations in place. We need more fiber in the ground to support them. Therefore, the energy consumption will go up. So we need to be more efficient in the use of energy. Simple as that. >> How much of the operating expense is energy? Like what percent of it? Is it 10%? Is it 20%? Is it, does anybody know? >> It depends who you ask and it depends on the- >> I can't get an answer to that. I mean, in the enterprise- >> Analyst: The data centers? >> Yeah, the data centers. >> We have the numbers. I think 10 to 15%. >> It's 10 to 12%, something like that. Is it much higher? >> I've got feeling it's 30%. >> Okay, so if it's 30%, that's pretty good. >> I do think we have to get better at understanding how to measure too. You know, like I was talking with John Davidson at Sysco about this that every rev of silicon they come out with uses more power, but it's a lot more dense. So at the surface, you go, well, that's using a lot more power. But you can consolidate 10 switches down to two switches. >> Well, Intel was on early and talking about how they can intelligently control the cores. >> But it's based off workload, right? That's the thing. So what are you running over it? You know, and so, I don't think our industry measures that very well. I think we look at things kind of boxed by box versus look at total consumption. >> Well, somebody else in theCUBE was saying they go full throttle. That the networks just say just full throttle everything. And that obviously has to change from the power consumption standpoint. >> Obviously sustainability and sensory or sensors from IOT side, they go hand in hand. Just simple examples like, you know, lights in the restrooms, like in public areas. Somebody goes in there and just only then turns. The same concept is being applied to servers and compute and storage and every aspects and to networks as well. >> Cell tower. >> Yeah. >> Cut 'em off, right? >> Like the serverless telco? (crosstalk) >> Cell towers. >> Well, no, I'm saying, right, but like serverless, you're not paying for the compute when you're not using it, you know? >> It is serverless from the economics point of view. Yes, it's like that, you know? It goes to the lowest level almost like sleep on our laptops, sleep level when you need more power, more compute. >> I mean, some of that stuff's been in networking equipment for a long time, it just never really got turned on. >> I want to ask you about private networks. You wrote a piece, Athenet was acquired by HPE right after Dell announced a relationship with Athenet, which was kind of, that was kind of funny. And so a good move, good judo move by by HP. I asked Dell about it, and they said, look, we're open. They said the right things. We'll see, but I think it's up to HP. >> Well, and the network inside Dell is. >> Yeah, okay, so. Okay, cool. So, but you said something in that article you wrote on Silicon Angle that a lot of people feel like P5G is going to basically replace wireless or cannibalize wireless. You said you didn't agree with that. Explain why? >> Analyst: Wifi. >> Wifi, sorry, I said wireless. >> No, that's, I mean that's ridiculous. Pat Gelsinger said that in his last VMware, which I thought was completely irresponsible. >> That it was going to cannibalize? >> Cannibalize wifi globally is what he said, right? Now he had Verizon on stage with him, so. >> Analyst: Wifi's too inexpensive and flexible. >> Wifi's cheap- >> Analyst: It's going to embed really well. Embedded in that. >> It's reached near ubiquity. It's unlicensed. So a lot of businesses don't want to manage their own spectrum, right? And it's great for this, right? >> Analyst: It does the job. >> For casual connectivity. >> Not today. >> Well, it does for the most part. Right now- >> For the most part. But never at these events. >> If it's engineered correctly, it will. Right? Where you need private 5G is when reliability is an absolute must. So, Chris, you and I visited the Port of Rotterdam, right? So they're putting 5G, private 5G there, but there's metal containers everywhere, right? And that's going to disrupt it. And so there are certain use cases where it makes sense. >> I've been in your basement, and you got some pretty intense equipment in there. You have private 5G in there. >> But for carpeted offices, it does not make sense to bring private. The economics don't make any sense. And you know, it runs hot. >> So where's it going to be used? Give us some examples of where we should be looking for. >> The early ones are obviously in mining, and you say in ports, in airports. It broadens cities because you've got so many moving parts in there, and always think about it, very expensive moving parts. The cranes in the port are normally expensive piece of kits. You're moving that, all that logistics around. So managing that over a distance where the wifi won't work over the distance. And in mining, we're going to see enormous expensive trucks moving around trying to- >> I think a great new use case though, so the Cleveland Browns actually the first NFL team to use it for facial recognition to enter the stadium. So instead of having to even pull your phone out, it says, hey Dave Vellante. You've got four tickets, can we check you all in? And you just walk through. You could apply that to airports. You could do put that in a hotel. You could walk up and check in. >> Analyst: Retail. >> Yeah, retail. And so I think video, realtime video analytics, I think it's a perfect use case for that. >> But you don't need 5G to do that. You could do that through another mechanism, couldn't you? >> You could do wire depending on how mobile you want to do it. Like in a stadium, you're pulling those things in and out all the time. You're moving 'em around and things, so. >> Yeah, but you're coming in at a static point. >> I'll take the contrary view here. >> See, we can't even agree on that. (men laugh) >> Yeah, I love it. Let's go. >> I believe the reliability of connection is very important, right? And the moving parts. What are the moving parts in wifi? We have the NIC card, you know, the wifi card in these suckers, right? In a machine, you know? They're bigger in size, and the radios for 5G are smaller in size. So neutralization is important part of the whole sort of progress to future, right? >> I think 5G costs as well. Yes, cost as well. But cost, we know that it goes down with time, right? We're already talking about 60, and the 5G stuff will be good. >> Actually, sorry, so one of the big boom areas at the moment is 4G LTE because the component price has come down so much, so it is affordable, you can afford to bring it all together. People don't, because we're still on 5G, if 5G standalone everywhere, you're not going to get a consistent service. So those components are unbelievably important. The skillsets of the people doing integration to bring them all together, unbelievably important. And the business case within the business. So I was talking to one of the heads of one of the big retail outlets in the UK, and I said, when are you going to do 5G in the stores? He said, well, why would I tear out all the wifi? I've got perfectly functioning wifi. >> Yeah, that's true. It's already there. But I think the technology which disappears in front of you, that's the best technology. Like you don't worry about it. You don't think it's there. Wifi, we think we think about that like it's there. >> And I do think wifi 5G switching's got to get easier too. Like for most users, you don't know which is better. You don't even know how to test it. And to your point, it does need to be invisible where the user doesn't need to think about it, right? >> Invisible. See, we came back to invisible. We talked about that yesterday. Telecom should be invisible. >> And it should be, you know? You don't want to be thinking about telecom, but at the same time, telecoms want to be more visible. They want to be visible like Netflix, don't they? I still don't see the path. It's fuzzy to me the path of how they're not going to repeat what happened with the over the top providers if they're invisible. >> Well, if you think about what telcos delivers to consumers, to businesses, then extending that connectivity into your home to help you support secure and extend your connection into Zeus's basement, whatever it is. Obviously that's- >> His awesome setup down there. >> And then in the business environment, there's a big change going on from the old NPLS networks, the old rigid structures of networks to SD1 where the control point is moved outside, which can be under control of the telco, could be under the control of a third party integrator. So there's a lot changing. I think we obsess about the relative role of the telco. The demand is phenomenal for connectivity. So address that, fulfill that. And if they do that, then they'll start to build trust in other areas. >> But don't you think they're going to address that and fulfill that? I mean, they're good at it. That's their wheelhouse. >> And it's a 1.6 trillion market, right? So it's not to be sniffed at. That's fixed on mobile together, obviously. But no, it's a big market. And do we keep changing? As long as the service is good, we don't move away from it. >> So back to the APIs, the eight APIs, right? >> I mean- >> Eight APIs is a joke actually almost. I think they released it too early. The release release on the main stage, you know? Like, what? What is this, right? But of course they will grow into hundreds and thousands of APIs. But they have to spend a lot of time and effort in that sort of context. >> I'd actually like to see the GSMA work with like AWS and Microsoft and VMware and software companies and create some standardization across their APIs. >> Yeah. >> I spoke to them yes- >> We're trying to reinvent them. >> Is that not what they're doing? >> No, they said we are not in the business of a defining standards. And they used a different term, not standard. I mean, seriously. I was like, are you kidding me? >> Let's face it, there aren't just eight APIs out there. There's so many of them. The TM forum's been defining when it's open data architecture. You know, the telcos themselves are defining them. The standards we talked about too earlier with Danielle. There's a lot of APIs out there, but the consistency of APIs, so we can bring them together, to bring all the different services together that will support us in our different lives is really important. I think telcos will do it, it's in their interest to do it. >> All right, guys, we got to wrap. Let's go around the horn here, starting with Chris, Zeus, and then Sarbjeet, just bring us home. Number one hot take from Mobile World Congress MWC23 day two. >> My favorite hot take is the willingness of all the participants who have been traditional telco players who looked inwardly at the industry looking outside for help for partnerships, and to build an ecosystem, a more open ecosystem, which will address our requirements. >> Zeus? >> Yeah, I was going to talk about ecosystem. I think for the first time ever, when I've met with the telcos here, I think they're actually, I don't think they know how to get there yet, but they're at least aware of the fact that they need to understand how to build a big ecosystem around them. So if you think back like 50 years ago, IBM and compute was the center of everything in your company, and then the ecosystem surrounded it. I think today with digital transformation being network centric, the telcos actually have the opportunity to be that center of excellence, and then build an ecosystem around them. I think the SIs are actually in a really interesting place to help them do that 'cause they understand everything top to bottom that I, you know, pre pandemic, I'm not sure the telcos were really understand. I think they understand it today, I'm just not sure they know how to get there. . >> Sarbjeet? >> I've seen the lot of RN demos and testing companies and I'm amazed by it. Everything is turning into software, almost everything. The parts which are not turned into software. I mean every, they will soon. But everybody says that we need the hardware to run something, right? But that hardware, in my view, is getting miniaturized, and it's becoming smaller and smaller. The antennas are becoming smaller. The equipment is getting smaller. That means the cost on the physicality of the assets is going down. But the cost on the software side will go up for telcos in future. And telco is a messy business. Not everybody can do it. So only few will survive, I believe. So that's what- >> Software defined telco. So I'm on a mission. I'm looking for the monetization path. And what I haven't seen yet is, you know, you want to follow the money, follow the data, I say. So next two days, I'm going to be looking for that data play, that potential, the way in which this industry is going to break down the data silos I think there's potential goldmine there, but I haven't figured out yet. >> That's a subject for another day. >> Guys, thanks so much for coming on. You guys are extraordinary partners of theCUBE friends, and great analysts and congratulations and thank you for all you do. Really appreciate it. >> Analyst: Thank you. >> Thanks a lot. >> All right, this is a wrap on day two MWC 23. Go to siliconangle.com for all the news. Where Rob Hope and team are just covering all the news. John Furrier is in the Palo Alto studio. We're rocking all that news, taking all that news and putting it on video. Go to theCUBE.net, you'll see everything on demand. Thanks for watching. This is a wrap on day two. We'll see you tomorrow. (soft music)

(soft corporate jingle) >> Announcer: theCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies. Creating technologies that drive human progress. (upbeat jingle intro) >> Welcome back to Barcelona. We're here live at the Fira. (laughs) Just amazing day two of MWC23. It's packed today. It was packed yesterday. It's even more packed today. All the news is flowing. Check out siliconangle.com. John Furrier is in the studio in Palo Alto breaking all the news. And, we are here live. Really excited to have Udayan Mukherjee who's the Senior Fellow and Chief Architect of wireless product at Network and Edge for Intel. And, Manish Singh is back. He's the CTO of Telecom Systems Business at Dell Jets. Welcome. >> Thank you. >> Thank you >> We're going to talk about greening the network. I wonder, Udayan, if you could just set up why that's so important. I mean, it's obvious that it's an important thing, great for the environment, but why is it extra important in Telco? >> Yeah, thank you. Actually, I'll tell you, this morning I had a discussion with an operator. The first thing he said, that the electricity consumption is more expensive nowadays that total real estate that he's spending money on. So, it's like that is the number one thing that if you can change that, bring that power consumption down. And, if you talk about sustainability, look what is happening in Europe, what's happening in all the electricity areas. That's the critical element that we need to address. Whether we are defining chip, platforms, storage systems, that's the number one mantra right now. You know, reduce the power. Electricity consumption, because it's a sustainable planet that we are living in. >> So, you got CapEx and OpEx. We're talking about the big piece of OpEx is now power consumption? >> Power Consumption >> That's the point. Okay, so in my experience, servers are the big culprit for power consumption, which is powered by core semiconductors and microprocessors. So, what's the strategy to reduce the power consumption? You're probably not going to reduce the bill overall. You maybe just can keep pace, but from a technical standpoint, how do you attack that? >> Yeah, there are multiple defined ways of adding. Obviously the process technology, that micro (indistinct) itself is evolving to make it more low-power systems. But, even within the silicon, the server that we develop, if you look in a CPU, there is a lot of power states. So, if you have a 32 code platform, as an example, every code you can vary the frequency and the C-states, power states. So, if you look into any traffic, whether it's a radio access network, packet code. At any given time the load is not peak. So, your power consumption, actual what we are drawing from the wall, it also needs to vary with that. So, that's how if you look into this there's a huge savings. If you go to Intel booth or Ericson booth or anyone, you will see right now every possible, the packet code, radio access network, everything network. They're talking about our energy consumption, how they're lowering this. These states, as we call it power states, C-state P-state they've built in intel chip for a long time. The cloud providers are taking advantage of it. But Telcos, with even two generation before they used to actually switch it off in the bios. I say no, we need peak. Now, that thing is changing. Now, it's all like, how do I take advantage of the built in technologies? >> I remember the enterprise virtualization, Manish, was a big play. I remember PG&E used to give rebates to customers that would install virtualized software, VMware. >> And SSDs. >> Yeah. And SSDs, you know, yes. Because, the spinning disc was, but, nowhere near with a server consumption. So, how virtualized is the telco network? And then, what I'm saying is there other things, other knobs, you can of course turn. So, what's your perspective on this as a server player? >> Yeah, absolutely. Let me just back up a little bit and start at the big picture to share what Udayan said. Here, day two, every conversation I've had yesterday and today morning with every operator, every CTO, they're coming in and first topic they're talking about is energy. And, the reason is, A, it's the right thing to do, sustainability, but, it's also becoming a P&L issue. And, the reason it's becoming a P&L issue is because we are in this energy inflationary environment where the energy costs are constantly going up. So, it's becoming really important for the service providers to really drive more efficiency onto their networks, onto their infrastructure. Number one. Two, then to your question on what all knobs need to be turned on, and what are the knobs? So, Udayan talked about within the intel, silicon, the C-states, P-states and all these capabilities that are being brought up, absolutely important. But again, if we take a macro view of it. First of all, there are opportunities to do infrastructure audit. What's on, why is it on, does it need to be on right now? Number two, there are opportunities to do infrastructure upgrade. And, what I mean by that is as you go from previous generation servers to next generation servers, better cooling, better performance. And through all of that you start to gain power usage efficiency inside a data center. And, you take that out more into the networks you start to achieve same outcomes on the network site. Think about from a cooling perspective, air cooling but for that matter, even liquid cooling, especially inside the data centers. All opportunities around PUE, because PUE, power usage efficiency and improvement on PUE is an opportunity. But, I'll take it even further. Workloads that are coming onto it, core, RAN, these workloads based on the dynamic traffic. Look, if you look at the traffic inside a network, it's not constant, it's varied. As the traffic patterns change, can you reduce the amount of infrastructure you're using? I.e. reduce the amount of power that you're using and when the traffic loads are going up. So, the workloads themselves need to become more smarter about that. And last, but not the least. From an orchestration layer if you think about it, where you are placing these workloads, and depending on what's available, you can start to again, drive better energy outcomes. And, not to forget acceleration. Where you need acceleration, can you have the right hardware infrastructures delivering the right kind of accelerations to again, improve those energy efficiency outcomes. So, it's a complex problem. But, there are a lot of levers, lot of tools that are in place that the service providers, the technology builders like us, are building the infrastructure, and then the workload providers all come together to really solve this problem. >> Yeah, Udayan, Manish mentioned this idea of moving from one generation to a new generation and gaining benefits. Out there on the street, if you will. Most of the time it's an N plus 2 migration. It's not just moving from last generation to this next generation, but it's really a generation ago. So, those significant changes in the dynamics around power density and cooling are meaningful? You talk about where performance should be? We start talking about the edge. It's hard to have a full-blown raised data center floor edge everywhere. Do these advances fundamentally change the kinds of things that you can do at the base of a tower? >> Yeah, absolutely. Manish talked about that, the dynamic nature of the workload. So, we are using a lot of this AIML to actually predict. Like for example, your multiple force in a systems. So, why is the 32 core as a system, why is all running? So, your traffic profile in the night times. So, you are in the office areas, in the night has gone home and nowadays everybody's working from remote anyway. So, why is this thing a full blown, spending the TDP, the total power and extreme powers. You bring it down, different power states, C-states. We talked about it. Deeper C-states or P-states, you bring the frequency down. So, lot of those automation, even at the base of the tower. Lot of our deployment right now, we are doing a whole bunch of massive MIMO deployment. Virtual RAN in Verizon network. All actually cell-site deployment. Those eight centers are very close to the cell-site. And, they're doing aggressive power management. So, you don't have to go to a huge data centers, even there's a small rack of systems, four to five, 10 systems, you can do aggressive power management. And, you built it up that way. >> Okay. >> If I may just build on what Udayan said. I mean if you look at the radio access network, right? And, let's start at the bottom of the tower itself. The infrastructure that's going in there, especially with Open RAN, if you think about it, there are opportunities now to do a centralized RAN where you could do more BBU pooling. And, with that, not only on a given tower but across a given given coverage area, depending on what the traffics are, you can again get the infrastructure to become more efficient in terms of what traffic, what needs are, and really start to benefit. The pooling gains which is obviously going to give you benefit on the CapEx side, but from an energy standpoint going to give you benefits on the OpEx side of things. So that's important. The second thing I will say is we cannot forget, especially on the radio access side of things, that it's not just the bottom of the tower what's happening there. What's happening on the top of the tower especially with the radio, that's super important. And, that goes into how do you drive better PA efficiency, how do you drive better DPD in there? This is where again, applying AI machine learning there is a significant amount of opportunity there to improve the PA performance itself. But then, not only that, looking at traffic patterns. Can you do sleep modes, micro sleep modes to deep sleep modes. Turning down the cells itself, depending on the traffic patterns. So, these are all areas that are now becoming more and more important. And, clearly with our ecosystem of partners we are continuing to work on these. >> So we hear from the operators, it's an OpEx issue. It's hitting the P&L. They're in search of PUE of one. And, they've historically been wasteful, they go full throttle. And now, you're saying with intelligence you can optimize that consumption. So, where does the intelligence live? Is it in the rig. Where is it all throughout the network? Is it in the silicon? Maybe you could paint a picture as to where those smarts exist. >> I can start. It's across the stack. It starts, we talked about the C-states, P-states. If you want to take advantage of that, that intelligence is in the workload, which has to understand when can I really start to clock things down or turn off the cores. If you really look at it from a traffic pattern perspective you start to really look at a rig level where you can have power. And, we are working with the ecosystem partners who are looking at applying machine learning on that to see what can we really start to turn on, turn off, throttle things down, depending on what the, so yes, it's across the stack. And lastly, again, I'll go back to cannot forget orchestration, where you again have the ability to move some of these workloads and look at where your workload placements are happening depending on what infrastructure is and what the traffic needs are at that point in time. So it's, again, there's no silver bullet. It has to be looked across the stack. >> And, this is where actually if I may, last two years a sea change has happened. People used to say, okay there are C-states and P-states, there's silicon every code. OS operating system has a governor built in. We rely on that. So, that used to be the way. Now that applications are getting smarter, if you look at a radio access network or the packet core on the control plane signaling application, they're more aware of the what is the underlying silicon power state sleep states are available. So, every time they find some of these areas there's no enough traffic there, they immediately goes to a transition. So, the workload has become more intelligent. The rig application we talked about. Every possible rig application right now are apps on xApps. Most of them are on energy efficiency. How are they using it? So, I think lot more even the last two years. >> Can I just say one more thing there right? >> Yeah. >> We cannot forget the infrastructure as well, right? I mean, that's the most important thing. That's where the energy is really getting drawn in. And, constant improvement on the infrastructure. And, I'll give you some data points, right? If you really look at the power at servers, right? From 2013 to 2023, like a decade. 85% energy intensity improvement, right? So, these gains are coming from performance with better cooling, better technology applications. So, that's super critical, that's important. And, also to just give you another data point. Apart from the infrastructure what cache layers we are running and how much CPU and compute requirements are there, that's also important. So, looking at it from a cache perspective are we optimizing the required infrastructure blocks for radio access versus core? And again, really taking that back to energy efficiency outcomes. So, some of the work we've been doing with Wind River and Red Hat and some of our ecosystem partners around that for radio access network versus core. Really again, optimizing for those different use cases and the outcomes of those start to come in from an energy utilization perspective >> So, 85% improvement in power consumption. Of course you're doing, I don't know, 2, 300% more work, right? So, let's say, and I'm just sort of spit balling numbers but, let's say that historically powers on the P&L has been, I don't know, single digits, maybe 10%. Now, it's popping up the much higher. >> Udayan: Huge >> Right? >> I mean, I don't know what the number is. Is it over 20% in some cases or is it, do you have a sense of that? Or let's say it is. The objective I presume is you're probably not going to lower the power bill overall, but you're going to be able to lower the percent of cost on the OpEx as you grow, right? I mean, we're talking about 5G networks. So much more data >> Capacity increasing. >> Yeah, and so is it, am I right about that the carriers, the best they can hope for is to sort of stay even on that percentage or maybe somewhat lower that percentage? Or, do you think they can actually cut the bill? What's the goal? What are they trying to do? >> The goal is to cut the bill. >> It is! >> And the way you get started to cut the bill is, as I said, first of all on the radio side. Start to see where the improvements are and look, there's not a whole lot there to be done. I mean, the PS are as efficient as they can be, but as I said, there are things in DPD and all that still can be improved. But then, sleep modes and all, yes there are efficiencies in there. But, I'll give you one important, another interesting data point. We did a work with ACG Research on our 16G platform. The power edge service that we have recently launched based on Intel's Sapphire Rapids. And, if you look at the study there. 30% TCR reduction, 10% in CapEx gains, 30% in OpEx gains from moving away from these legacy monolithic architectures to cloud native architectures. And, a large part of that OpEx gain really starts to come from energy to the point of 800 metric tonnes of carbon reduction to the point of you could have, and if you really translate that to around 160 homes electric use per year, right? So yes, I mean the opportunity there is to reduce the bill. >> Wow, that's big, big goal guys. We got to run. But, thank you for informing the audience on the importance and how you get there. So, appreciate that. >> One thing that bears mentioning really quickly before we wrap, a lot of these things we're talking about are happening in remote locations. >> Oh, back to that point of distributed nature of telecom. >> Yes, we talked about a BBU being at the base of a tower that could be up on a mountain somewhere. >> No, you made the point. You can't just say, oh, hey we're going to go find ambient air or going to go... >> They don't necessarily... >> Go next to a waterfall. >> We don't necessarily have the greatest hydro tower. >> All right, we got to go. Thanks you guys. Alright, keep it right there. Wall to wall coverage is day two of theCUBE's coverage of MWC 23. Stay right there, we'll be right back. (corporate outro jingle)

(light music) >> Narrator: theCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies. Creating technologies that drive human progress. (upbeat music) >> Welcome back to Spain everyone. Lisa Martin here with theCUBE Dave Vellante, my co-host for the next four days. We're live in Barcelona, covering MWC23. This is only day one, but I'll tell you the theme of this conference this year is velocity. And I don't know about you Dave, but this day is flying by already. This is ecosystem day. We're going to have a great discussion on the ecosystem next. >> Well we're seeing the disaggregation of the hardened telco stack, and that necessitates an ecosystem open- we're going to talk about Open RAN, we've been talking about even leading up to the show. It's a critical technology enabler and it's compulsory to have an ecosystem to support that. >> Absolutely compulsory. We've got two guests here joining us, Gautam Bhagra, Vice President partnerships at Dell, and Scott Walker, Vice President of global Telco ecosystem at Wind River. Guys, welcome to the program. >> Nice to be here. >> Thanks For having us. >> Thanks for having us. >> So you've got some news, this is day one of the conference, there's some news, Gautam, and let's start with you, unpack it. >> Yeah, well there's a lot of news, as you know, on Dell World. One of the things we are very excited to announce today is the launch of the Open Telecom Ecosystems Community. I think Dave, as you mentioned, getting into an Open RAN world is a challenge. And we know some of the challenges that our customers face. To help solve for those challenges, Dell wants to work with like-minded partners and customers to build innovative solutions, and join go-to-market. So we are launching that today. Wind River is one of our flagship partners for that, and I'm excited to be here to talk about that as well. >> Can you guys talk a little bit about the partnership, maybe a little bit about Wind River so the audience gets that context? >> Sure, absolutely, and the theme of the show, Velocity, is what this partnership is all about. We create velocity for operators if they want to adopt Open RAN, right? We simplify it. Wind River as a company has been around for 40 years. We were part of Intel at one point, and now we're independent, owned by a company called Aptiv. And with that we get another round of investment to help continue our acceleration into this market. So, the Dell partnership is about, like I said, velocity, accelerating the adoption. When we talk to operators, they have told us there are many roadblocks that they face, right? Like systems integration, operating at scale. 'Cause when you buy a traditional radio access network solution from a single supplier, it's very easy. It's works, it's been tested. When you break these components apart and disaggregate 'em, as we talked about David, it creates integration points and support issues, right? And what Dell and Wind River have done together is created a cloud infrastructure solution that could host a variety of RAN workloads, and essentially create a two layer cake. What we're, overall, what we're trying to do is create a traditional RAN experience, with the innovation agility and flexibility of Open RAN. And that's really what this partnership does. >> So these work, this workload innovation is interesting to me because you've got now developers, you know, the, you know, what's the telco developer look like, you know, is to be defined, right? I mean it's like this white sheet of paper that can create all this innovation. And to do that, you've got to have, as I said earlier, an ecosystem. But you've got now, I'm interested in your Open RAN agenda and how you see that sort of maturity model taking place. 'Cause today, you got disruptors that are going to lean right in say "Hey, yeah, that's great." The traditional carriers, they have to have a, you know, they have to migrate, they have to have a hybrid world. We know that takes time. So what's that look like in the marketplace today? >> Yeah, so I mean, I can start, right? So from a Dell's perspective, what we see in the market is yes, there is a drive towards, everyone understands the benefits of being open, right? There's the agility piece, the innovation piece. That's a no-brainer. The question is how do we get there? And I think that's where partnerships become critical to get there, right? So we've been working with partners like Wind River to build solutions that make it easier for customers to start adopting some of the foundational elements of an open network. The, one of the purposes in the agenda of building this community is to bring like-minded developers, like you said like we want those guys to come and work with the customers to create new solutions, and come up with something creative, which no one's even thought about, that accelerates your option even quicker, right? So that's exactly what we want to do as well. And that's one of the reasons why we launched the community. >> Yeah, and what we find with a lot of carriers, they are used to buying, like I said, traditional RAN solutions which are provided from a single provider like Erickson or Nokia and others, right? And we break this apart, and you cloudify that network infrastructure, there's usually a skills gap we see at the operator level, right? And so from a developer standpoint, they struggle with having the expertise in order to execute on that. Wind River helps them, working with companies like Dell, simplify that bottom portion of the stack, the infrastructure stack. So, and we lifecycle manage it, we test- we're continually testing it, and integrating it, so that the operator doesn't have to do that. In addition to that, wind River also has a history and legacy of working with different RAN vendors, both disruptors like Mavenir and Parallel Wireless, as well as traditional RAN providers like Samsung, Erickson, and others soon to be announced. So what we're doing on the northbound side is making it easy by integrating that, and on the southbound side with Dell, so that again, instead of four or five solutions that you need to put together, it's simply two. >> And you think about today how we- how you consume telco services are like there's these fixed blocks of services that you can buy, that has to change. It's more like the, the app stores. It's got to be an open marketplace, and that's where the innovation's going to come in, you know, from the developers, you know, top down maybe. I don't know, how do you see that maturity model evolving? People want to know how long it's going to take. So many questions, when will Open RAN be as reliable. Does it even have to be? You know, so many interesting dynamics going on. >> Yeah, and I think that's something we at Dell are also trying to find out, right? So we have been doing a lot of good work here to help our customers move in that direction. The work with Dish is an example of that. But I think we do understand the challenges as well in terms of getting, adopting the technologies, and adopting the innovation that's being driven by Open. So one of the agendas that we have as a company this year is to work with the community to drive this a lot further, right? We want to have customers adopt the technology more broadly with the tier one, tier two telcos globally. And our sales organizations are going to be working together with Wind Rivers to figure out who's the right set of customers to have these conversations with, so we can drop, drive, start driving this agenda a lot quicker than what we've seen historically. >> And where are you having those customer conversations? Is that at the operator level, is it higher, is it both? >> Well, all operators are deploying 5G in preparation for 6G, right? And we're all looking for those killer use cases which will drive top line revenue and not just make it a TCO discussion. And that starts at a very basic level today by doing things like integrating with Juniper, for their cloud router. So instead of at the far edge cell site, having a separate device that's doing the routing function, right? We take that and we cloudify that application, run it on the same server that's hosting the RAN applications, so you eliminate a device and reduce TCO. Now with Aptiv, which is primarily known as an automotive company, we're having lots of conversations, including with Dell and Intel and others about vehicle to vehicle communication, vehicle to anything communication. And although that's a little bit futuristic, there are shorter term use cases that, like, vehicle to vehicle accident avoidance, which are going to be much nearer term than autonomous driving, for example, which will help drive traffic and new revenue streams for operators. >> So, oh, that's, wow. So many other things (Scott laughs) that's just opened up there too. But I want to come back to, sort of, the Open RAN adoption. And I think you're right, there's a lot of questions that that still have to be determined. But my question is this, based on your knowledge so far does it have to be as hardened and reliable, obviously has to be low latency as existing networks, or can flexibility, like the cloud when it first came out, wasn't better than enterprise IT, it was just more flexible and faster, and you could rent it. And, is there a similar dynamic here where it doesn't have to replicate the hardened stack, it can bring in new benefits that drive adoption, what are your thoughts on that? >> Well there's a couple of things on that, because Wind River, as you know, where our legacy and history is in embedded devices like F-15 fighter jets, right? Or the Mars Rover or the James Web telescope, all run Wind River software. So, we know about can't fail ultra reliable systems, and operators are not letting us off the hook whatsoever. It has to be as hardened and locked down, as secure as a traditional RAN environment. Otherwise they will (indistinct). >> That's table stakes. >> That's table stakes that gets us there. And when River, with our legacy and history, and having operator experience running live commercial networks with a disaggregated stack in the tens of thousands of nodes, understand what this is like because they're running live commercial traffic with live customers. So we can't fail, right? And with that, they want their cake and eat it too, right? Which is, I want ultra reliable, I want what I have today, but I want the agility and flexibility to onboard third party apps. Like for example, this JCNR, this Juniper Cloud-Native Router. You cannot do something as simple as that on a traditional RAN Appliance. In an open ecosystem you can take that workload and onboard it because it is an open ecosystem, and that's really one of the true benefits. >> So they want the mainframe, but they want (Scott laughs) the flexibility of the developer cloud, right? >> That's right. >> They want their, have their cake eat it too and not gain weight. (group laughs) >> Yeah I mean David, I come from the public cloud world. >> We all don't want to do that. >> I used to work with a public cloud company, and nine years ago, public cloud was in the same stage, where you would go to a bank, and they would be like, we don't trust the cloud. It's not secure, it's not safe. It was the digital natives that adopted it, and that that drove the industry forward, right? And that's where the enterprises that realized that they're losing business because of all these innovative new companies that came out. That's what I saw over the last nine years in the cloud space. I think in the telco space also, something similar might happen, right? So a lot of this, I mean a lot of the new age telcos are understanding the value, are looking to innovate are adopting the open technologies, but there's still some inertia and hesitancy, for the reasons as Scott mentioned, to go there so quickly. So we just have to work through and balance between both sides. >> Yeah, well with that said, if there's still some inertia, but there's a theme of velocity, how do you help organizations balance that so they trust evolving? >> Yeah, and I think this is where our solution, like infrastructure block, is a foundational pillar to make that happen, right? So if we can take away the concerns that the organizations have in terms of security, reliability from the fundamental elements that build their infrastructure, by working with partners like Wind River, but Dell takes the ownership end-to-end to make sure that service works and we have those telco grade SLAs, then the telcos can start focusing on what's next. The applications and the customer services on the top. >> Customer service customer experience. >> You know, that's an interesting point Gautam brings up, too, because support is an issue too. We all talk about when you break these things apart, it creates integration points that you need to manage, right? But there's also, so the support aspect of it. So imagine if you will, you had one vendor, you have an outage, you call that one vendor, one necktie to choke, right, for accountability for the network. Now you have four or five vendors that you have to work. You get a lot of finger pointing. So at least at the infrastructure layer, right? Dell takes first call support for both the hardware infrastructure and the Wind River cloud infrastructure for both. And we are training and spinning them up to support, but we're always behind them of course as well. >> Can you give us a favorite customer example of- that really articulates the value of the partnership and the technologies that it's delivering to customers? >> Well, Infra Block- >> (indistinct) >> Is quite new, and we do have our first customer which is LG U plus, which was announced yesterday. Out of Korea, small customer, but a very important one. Okay, and I think they saw the value of the integrated system. They don't have the (indistinct) expertise and they're leveraging Dell and Wind River in order to make that happen. But I always also say historically before this new offering was Vodafone, right? Vodafone is a leader in Europe in terms of Open RAN, been very- Yago and Paco have been very vocal about what they're doing in Open RAN, and Dell and Wind River have been there with them every step of the way. And that's what I would say, kind of, led up to where we are today. We learned from engagements like Vodafone and I think KDDI as well. And it got us where we are today and understanding what the operators need and what the impediments are. And this directly addresses that. >> Those are two very different examples. You were talking about TCO before. I mean, so the earlier example is, that's an example to me of a disruptor. They'll take some chances, you know, maybe not as focused on TCO, of course they're concerned about it. Vodafone I would think very concerned about TCO. But I'm inferring from your comments that you're trying to get the industry, you're trying to check the TCO box, get there. And then move on to higher levels of value monetization. The TCO is going to come down to how many humans it takes to run the network, is it not, is that- >> Well a lot of, okay- >> Or is it devices- >> So the big one now, particularly with Vodafone, is energy cost, right? >> Of course, greening the network. >> Two-thirds of the energy consumption in RAN is the the Radio Access Network. Okay, the OPEX, right? So any reductions, even if they're 5% or 10%, can save tens or hundreds of millions of dollars. So we do things creatively with Dell to understand if there's a lot of traffic at the cell site and if it's not, we will change the C state or P state of the server, which basically spins it down, so it's not consuming power. But that's just at the infrastructure layer. Where this gets really powerful is working with the RAN vendors like Samsung and Ericson and others, and taking data from the traffic information there, applying algorithms to that in AI to shut it down and spin it back up as needed. 'Cause the idea is you don't want that thing powered up if there's no traffic on it. >> Well there's a sustainability, ESG, benefit to that, right? >> Yes. >> And, and it's very compute intensive. >> A hundred percent. >> Which is great for Dell. But at the same time, if you're not able to manage that power consumption, the whole thing fails. I mean it's, because there's going to be so much data, and such a intense requirement. So this is a huge issue. Okay, so Scott, you're saying that in the TCO equation, a big chunk is energy consumption? >> On the OPEX piece. Now there's also the CapEx, right? And Open RAN solutions are now, what we've heard from our customers today, are they're roughly at parity. 'Cause you can do things like repurpose servers after the useful life for a lower demand application which helps the TCO, right? Then you have situations like Juniper, where you can take, now software that runs on the same device, eliminating at a whole other device at the cell site. So we're not just taking a server and software point of view, we're taking a whole cell site point of view as it relates to both CapEx and OPEX. >> And then once that infrastructure it really gets adopted, that's when the innovation occurs. The ecosystem comes in. Developers now start to think of new applications that we haven't thought of yet. >> Gautam: Exactly. >> And that's where, that's going to force the traditional carriers to respond. They're responding, but they're doing so very carefully right now, it's understandable why. >> Yeah, and I think you're already seeing some news in the, I mean Nokia's announcement yesterday with the rebranding, et cetera. That's all positive momentum in my opinion, right? >> What'd you think of the logo? >> I love the logo. >> I liked it too. (group laughs) >> It was beautiful. >> I thought it was good. You had the connectivity down below, You need pipes, right? >> Exactly. >> But you had this sort of cool letters, and then the the pink horizon or pinkish, it was like (Scott laughs) endless opportunity. It was good, I thought it was well thought out. >> Exactly. >> Well, you pick up on an interesting point there, and what we're seeing, like advanced carriers like Dish, who has one of the true Open RAN networks, publishing APIs for programmers to build in their 5G network as part of the application. But we're also seeing the network equipment providers also enable carriers do that, 'cause carriers historically have not been advanced in that way. So there is a real recognition that in order for these networks to monetize new use cases, they need to be programmable, and they need to publish standard APIs, so you can access the 5G network capabilities through software. >> Yeah, and the problem from the carriers, there's not enough APIs that the carriers have produced yet. So that's where the ecosystem comes in, is going to >> A hundred percent >> I think there's eight APIs that are published out of the traditional carriers, which is, I mean there's got to be 8,000 for a marketplace. So that's where the open ecosystem really has the advantage. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> Yeah. >> So it all makes sense on paper, now you just, you got a lot of work to do. >> We got to deliver. Yeah, we launched it today. We got to get some like-minded partners and customers to come together. You'll start seeing results coming out of this hopefully soon, and we'll talk more about it over time. >> Dave: Great Awesome, thanks for sharing with us. >> Excellent. Guys, thank you for sharing, stopping by, sharing what's going on with Dell and Wind River, and why the opportunity's in it for customers and the technological evolution. We appreciate it, you'll have to come back, give us an update. >> Our pleasure, thanks for having us. (Group talks over each other) >> All right, thanks guys >> Appreciate it. >> For our guests and for Dave Vellante, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE, Live from MWC23 in Barcelona. theCUBE is the leader in live tech coverage. (upbeat music)

(cheerful music) >> Welcome to theCUBE's continuing coverage of AMD's 4th Generation EPYC launch. I'm Dave Nicholson, and I'm here in our Palo Alto studios talking to Greg Gibby, senior product manager, data center products from AMD, and Mohan Rokkam, technical marketing engineer at Dell. Welcome, gentlemen. >> Mohan: Hello, hello. >> Greg: Thank you. Glad to be here. >> Good to see each of you. Just really quickly, I want to start out. Let us know a little bit about yourselves. Mohan, let's start with you. What do you do at Dell exactly? >> So I'm a technical marketing engineer at Dell. I've been with Dell for around 15 years now and my goal is to really look at the Dell powered servers and see how do customers take advantage of some of the features we have, especially with the AMD EPYC processors that have just come out. >> Greg, and what do you do at AMD? >> Yeah, so I manage our software-defined infrastructure solutions team, and really it's a cradle to grave where we work with the ISVs in the market, so VMware, Nutanix, Microsoft, et cetera, to integrate the features that we're putting into our processors and make sure they're ready to go and enabled. And then we work with our valued partners like Dell on putting those into actual solutions that customers can buy and then we work with them to sell those solutions into the market. >> Before we get into the details on the 4th Generation EPYC launch and what that means and why people should care. Mohan, maybe you can tell us a little about the relationship between Dell and AMD, how that works, and then Greg, if you've got commentary on that afterwards, that'd be great. Yeah, Mohan. >> Absolutely. Dell and AMD have a long standing partnership, right? Especially now with EPYC series. We have had products since EPYC first generation. We have been doing solutions across the whole range of Dell ecosystem. We have integrated AMD quite thoroughly and effectively and we really love how performant these systems are. So, yeah. >> Dave: Greg, what are your thoughts? >> Yeah, I would say the other thing too is, is that we need to point out is that we both have really strong relationships across the entire ecosystem. So memory vendors, the software providers, et cetera, we have technical relationships. We're working with them to optimize solutions so that ultimately when the customer buys that, they get a great user experience right out of the box. >> So, Mohan, I know that you and your team do a lot of performance validation testing as time goes by. I suspect that you had early releases of the 4th Gen EPYC processor technology. What have you been seeing so far? What can you tell us? >> AMD has definitely knocked it out of the park. Time and again, in the past four generations, in the past five years alone, we have done some database work where in five years, we have seen five exit performance. And across the board, AMD is the leader in benchmarks. We have done virtualization where we would consolidate from five into one system. We have world records in AI, we have world records in databases, we have world records in virtualization. The AMD EPYC solutions has been absolutely performant. I'll leave you with one number here. When we went from top of Stack Milan to top of Stack Genoa, we saw a performance bump of 120%. And that number just blew my mind. >> So that prompts a question for Greg. Often we, in industry insiders, think in terms of performance gains over the last generation or the current generation. A lot of customers in the real world, however, are N - 2. They're a ways back, so I guess two points on that. First of all, the kinds of increases the average person is going to see when they move to this architecture, correct me if I'm wrong, but it's even more significant than a lot of the headline numbers because they're moving two generations, number one. Correct me if I'm wrong on that, but then the other thing is the question to you, Greg. I like very long complicated questions, as you can tell. The question is, is it okay for people to skip generations or make the case for upgrades, I guess is the problem? >> Well, yeah, so a couple thoughts on that first too. Mohan talked about that five X over the generation improvements that we've seen. The other key point with that too is that we've made significant process improvements along the way moving to seven nanocomputer to now five nanocomputer and that's really reducing the total amount of power or the performance per watt the customers can realize as well. And when we look at why would a customer want to upgrade, right? And I want to rephrase that as to why aren't you? And there is a real cost of not upgrading. And so when you look at infrastructure, the average age of a server in the data center is over five years old. And if you look at the most popular processors that were sold in that timeframe, it's 8, 10, 12 cores. So now you've got a bunch of servers that you need in order to deliver the applications and meet your SLAs to your end users, and all those servers pull power. They require maintenance. They have the opportunity to go down, et cetera. You got to pay licensing and service and support costs and all those. And when you look at all the costs that roll up, even though the hardware is paid for just to keep the lights on, and not even talking about the soft costs of unplanned downtime, and, "I'm not meeting your SLAs," et cetera, it's very expensive to keep those servers running. Now, if you refresh, and now you have processors that have 32, 64, 96 cores, now you can consolidate that infrastructure and reduce your total power bill. You can reduce your CapEx, you reduce your ongoing OpEx, you improve your performance, and you improve your security profile. So it really is more cost effective to refresh than not to refresh. >> So, Mohan, what has your experience been double clicking on this topic of consolidation? I know that we're going to talk about virtualization in some of the results that you've seen. What have you seen in that regard? Does this favor better consolidation and virtualized environments? And are you both assuring us that the ROI and TCO pencil out on these new big, bad machines? >> Greg definitely hit the nail on the head, right? We are seeing tremendous savings really, if you're consolidating from two generations old. We went from, as I said, five is to one. You're going from five full servers, probably paid off down to one single server. That itself is, if you look at licensing costs, which again, with things like VMware does get pretty expensive. If you move to a single system, yes, we are at 32, 64, 96 cores, but if you compare to the licensing costs of 10 cores, two sockets, that's still pretty significant, right? That's one huge thing. Another thing which actually really drives the thing is we are looking at security, and in today's environment, security becomes a major driving factor for upgrades. Dell has its own setups, cyber-resilient architecture, as we call it, and that really is integrated from processor all the way up into the OS. And those are some of the features which customers really can take advantage of and help protect their ecosystems. >> So what kinds of virtualized environments did you test? >> We have done virtualization across primary codes with VMware, but the Azure Stack, we have looked at Nutanix. PowerFlex is another one within Dell. We have vSAN Ready Nodes. All of these, OpenShift, we have a broad variety of solutions from Dell and AMD really fits into almost every one of them very well. >> So where does hyper-converged infrastructure fit into this puzzle? We can think of a server as something that contains not only AMD's latest architecture but also latest PCIe bus technology and all of the faster memory, faster storage cards, faster nicks, all of that comes together. But how does that play out in Dell's hyper-converged infrastructure or HCI strategy? >> Dell is a leader in hyper-converged infrastructure. We have the very popular VxRail line, we have the PowerFlex, which is now going into the AWS ecosystem as well, Nutanix, and of course, Azure Stack. With all these, when you look at AMD, we have up to 96 cores coming in. We have PCIe Gen 5 which means you can now connect dual port, 100 and 200 gig nicks and get line rate on those so you can connect to your ecosystem. And I don't know if you've seen the news, 200, 400 gig routers and switchers are selling out. That's not slowing down. The network infrastructure is booming. If you want to look at the AI/ML side of things, the VDI side of things, accelerator cards are becoming more and more powerful, more and more popular. And of course they need that higher end data path that PCIe Gen 5 brings to the table. GDDR5 is another huge improvement in terms of performance and latencies. So when we take all this together, you talk about hyper-converged, all of them add into making sure that A, with hyper-converged, you get ease of management, but B, just 'cause you have ease of management doesn't mean you need to compromise on anything. And the AMD servers effectively are a no compromise offering that we at Dell are able to offer to our customers. >> So Greg, I've got a question a little bit from left field for you. We covered Supercompute Conference 2022. We were in Dallas a couple of weeks ago, and there was a lot of discussion of the current processor manufacturer battles, and a lot of buzz around 4th Gen EPYC being launched and what's coming over the next year. Do you have any thoughts on what this architecture can deliver for us in terms of things like AI? We talk about virtualization, but if you look out over the next year, do you see this kind of architecture driving significant change in the world? >> Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It has the real potential to do that from just the building blocks. So we have our chiplet architecture we call it. So you have an IO die and then you have your core complexes that go around that. And we integrate it all with our infinity fabric. That architecture allows you, if we wanted to, replace some of those CCDs with specific accelerators. And so when we look two, three, four years down the road, that architecture and that capability already built into what we're delivering and can easily be moved in. We just need to make sure that when you look at doing that, that the power that's required to do that and the software, et cetera, and those accelerators actually deliver better performance as a dedicated engine versus just using standard CPUs. The other things that I would say too is if you look at emerging workloads. So data center modernization is one of the buzzwords in cloud native, right? And these container environments, well, AMD'S architecture really just screams support for those type of environments, right? Where when you get into these larger core accounts and the consolidation that Mohan talked about. Now when I'm in a container environment, that blast radius so a lot of customers have concerns around, "Hey, having a single point of failure and having more than X number of cores concerns me." If I'm in containers, that becomes less of a concern. And so when you look at cloud native, containerized applications, data center modernization, AMD's extremely well positioned to take advantage of those use cases as well. >> Yeah, Mohan, and when we talk about virtualization, I think sometimes we have to remind everyone that yeah, we're talking about not only virtualization that has a full-blown operating system in the bucket, but also virtualization where the containers have microservices and things like that. I think you had something to add, Mohan. >> I did, and I think going back to the accelerator side of business, right? When we are looking at the current technology and looking at accelerators, AMD has done a fantastic job of adding in features like AVX-512, we have the bfloat16 and eight features. And some of what these do is they're effectively built-in accelerators for certain workloads especially in the AI and media spaces. And in some of these use cases we look at, for example, are inference. Traditionally we have used external accelerator cards, but for some of the entry level and mid-level use cases, CPU is going to work just fine especially with the newer CPUs that we are seeing this fantastic performance from. The accelerators just help get us to the point where if I'm at the edge, if I'm in certain use cases, I don't need to have an accelerator in there. I can run most of my inference workloads right on the CPU. >> Yeah, yeah. You know the game. It's an endless chase to find the bottleneck. And once we've solved the puzzle, we've created a bottleneck somewhere else. Back to the supercompute conversations we had, specifically about some of the AMD EPYC processor technology and the way that Dell is packaging it up and leveraging things like connectivity. That was one of the things that was also highlighted. This idea that increasingly connectivity is critically important, not just for supercomputing, but for high-performance computing that's finding its way out of the realms of Los Alamos and down to the enterprise level. Gentlemen, any more thoughts about the partnership or maybe a hint at what's coming in the future? I know that the original AMD announcement was announcing and previewing some things that are rolling out over the next several months. So let me just toss it to Greg. What are we going to see in 2023 in terms of rollouts that you can share with us? >> That I can share with you? Yeah, so I think look forward to see more advancements in the technology at the core level. I think we've already announced our product code name Bergamo, where we'll have up to 128 cores per socket. And then as we look in, how do we continually address this demand for data, this demand for, I need actionable insights immediately, look for us to continue to drive performance leadership in our products that are coming out and address specific workloads and accelerators where appropriate and where we see a growing market. >> Mohan, final thoughts. >> On the Dell side, of course, we have four very rich and configurable options with AMD EPYC servers. But beyond that, you'll see a lot more solutions. Some of what Greg has been talking about around the next generation of processors or the next updated processors, you'll start seeing some of those. and you'll definitely see more use cases from us and how customers can implement them and take advantage of the features that. It's just exciting stuff. >> Exciting stuff indeed. Gentlemen, we have a great year ahead of us. As we approach possibly the holiday seasons, I wish both of you well. Thank you for joining us. From here in the Palo Alto studios, again, Dave Nicholson here. Stay tuned for our continuing coverage of AMD's 4th Generation EPYC launch. Thanks for joining us. (cheerful music)

hi everybody welcome back to re invent 2022. this is thecube's exclusive coverage we're here at the satellite set it's up on the fifth floor of the Venetian Conference Center and this is part of the global startup program the AWS startup showcase series that we've been running all through last year and and into this year with AWS and featuring some of its its Global Partners Ed wallson series the CEO of chaos search many times Cube Alum and Kevin Miller there's also a cube Alum vice president GM of S3 at AWS guys good to see you again yeah great to see you Dave hi Kevin this is we call this our Super Bowl so this must be like your I don't know uh World Cup it's a pretty big event yeah it's the World Cup for sure yeah so a lot of S3 talk you know I mean that's what got us all started in 2006 so absolutely what's new in S3 yeah it's been a great show we've had a number of really interesting launches over the last few weeks and a few at the show as well so you know we've been really focused on helping customers that are running Mass scale data Lakes including you know whether it's structured or unstructured data we actually announced just a few just an hour ago I think it was a new capability to give customers cross-account access points for sharing data securely with other parts of the organization and that's something that we'd heard from customers is as they are growing and have more data sets and they're looking to to get more out of their data they are increasingly looking to enable multiple teams across their businesses to access those data sets securely and that's what we provide with cross-count access points we also launched yesterday our multi-region access point failover capabilities and so again this is where customers have data sets and they're using multiple regions for certain critical workloads they're now able to to use that to fail to control the failover between different regions in AWS and then one other launch I would just highlight is some improvements we made to storage lens which is our really a very novel and you need capability to help customers really understand what storage they have where who's accessing it when it's being accessed and we added a bunch of new metrics storage lens has been pretty exciting for a lot of customers in fact we looked at the data and saw that customers who have adopted storage lens typically within six months they saved more than six times what they had invested in turning storage lens on and certainly in this environment right now we have a lot of customers who are it's pretty top of mind they're looking for ways to optimize their their costs in the cloud and take some of those savings and be able to reinvest them in new innovation so pretty exciting with the storage lens launch I think what's interesting about S3 is that you know pre-cloud Object Store was this kind of a niche right and then of course you guys announced you know S3 in 2006 as I said and okay great you know cheap and deep storage simple get put now the conversations about how to enable value from from data absolutely analytics and it's just a whole new world and Ed you've talked many times I love the term yeah we built chaos search on the on the shoulders of giants right and so the under underlying that is S3 but the value that you can build on top of that has been key and I don't think we've talked about his shoulders and Giants but we've talked about how we literally you know we have a big Vision right so hard to kind of solve the challenge to analytics at scale we really focus on the you know the you know Big Data coming environment get analytics so we talk about the on the shoulders Giants obviously Isaac Newton's you know metaphor of I learned from everything before and we layer on top so really when you talk about all the things come from S3 like I just smile because like we picked it up naturally we went all in an S3 and this is where I think you're going Dave but everyone is so let's just cut the chase like so any of the data platforms you're using S3 is what you're building but we did it a little bit differently so at first people using a cold storage like you said and then they ETL it up into a different platforms for analytics of different sorts now people are using it closer they're doing caching layers and cashing out and they're that's where but that's where the attributes of a scale or reliability are what we did is we actually make S3 a database so literally we have no persistence outside that three and that kind of comes in so it's working really well with clients because most of the thing is we pick up all these attributes of scale reliability and it shows up in the clients environments and so when you launch all these new scalable things we just see it like our clients constantly comment like one of our biggest customers fintech in uh Europe they go to Black Friday again black Friday's not one days and they lose scale from what is it 58 terabytes a day and they're going up to 187 terabytes a day and we don't Flinch they say how do you do that well we built our platform on S3 as long as you can stream it to S3 so they're saying I can't overrun S3 and it's a natural play so it's it's really nice that but we take out those attributes but same thing that's why we're able to you know help clients get you know really you know Equifax is a good example maybe they're able to consolidate 12 their divisions on one platform we couldn't have done that without the scale and the performance of what you can get S3 but also they saved 90 I'm able to do that but that's really because the only persistence is S3 and what you guys are delivering but and then we really for focus on shoulders Giants we're doing on top of that innovating on top of your platforms and bringing that out so things like you know we have a unique data representation that makes it easy to ingest this data because it's kind of coming at you four v's of big data we allow you to do that make it performant on s3h so now you're doing hot analytics on S3 as if it's just a native database in memory but there's no memory SSC caching and then multi-model once you get it there don't move it leverage it in place so you know elasticsearch access you know Cabana grafana access or SQL access with your tools so we're seeing that constantly but we always talk about on the shoulders of giants but even this week I get comments from our customers like how did you do that and most of it is because we built on top of what you guys provided so it's really working out pretty well and you know we talk a lot about digital transformation of course we had the pleasure sitting down with Adam solipski prior John Furrier flew to Seattle sits down his annual one-on-one with the AWS CEO which is kind of cool yeah it was it's good it's like study for the test you know and uh and so but but one of the interesting things he said was you know we're one of our challenges going forward is is how do we go Beyond digital transformation into business transformation like okay well that's that's interesting I was talking to a customer today AWS customer and obviously others because they're 100 year old company and they're basically their business was they call them like the Uber for for servicing appliances when your Appliance breaks you got to get a person to serve it a service if it's out of warranty you know these guys do that so they got to basically have a you know a network of technicians yeah and they gotta deal with the customers no phone right so they had a completely you know that was a business transformation right they're becoming you know everybody says they're coming a software company but they're building it of course yeah right on the cloud so wonder if you guys could each talk about what's what you're seeing in terms of changing not only in the sort of I.T and the digital transformation but also the business transformation yeah I know I I 100 agree that I think business transformation is probably that one of the top themes I'm hearing from customers of all sizes right now even in this environment I think customers are looking for what can I do to drive top line or you know improve bottom line or just improve my customer experience and really you know sort of have that effect where I'm helping customers get more done and you know it is it is very tricky because to do that successfully the customers that are doing that successfully I think are really getting into the lines of businesses and figuring out you know it's probably a different skill set possibly a different culture different norms and practices and process and so it's it's a lot more than just a like you said a lot more than just the technology involved but when it you know we sort of liquidate it down into the data that's where absolutely we see that as a critical function for lines of businesses to become more comfortable first off knowing what data sets they have what data they they could access but possibly aren't today and then starting to tap into those data sources and then as as that progresses figuring out how to share and collaborate with data sets across a company to you know to correlate across those data sets and and drive more insights and then as all that's being done of course it's important to measure the results and be able to really see is this what what effect is this having and proving that effect and certainly I've seen plenty of customers be able to show you know this is a percentage increase in top or bottom line and uh so that pattern is playing out a lot and actually a lot of how we think about where we're going with S3 is related to how do we make it easier for customers to to do everything that I just described to have to understand what data they have to make it accessible and you know it's great to have such a great ecosystem of partners that are then building on top of that and innovating to help customers connect really directly with the businesses that they're running and driving those insights well and customers are hours today one of the things I loved that Adam said he said where Amazon is strategically very very patient but tactically we're really impatient and the customers out there like how are you going to help me increase Revenue how are you going to help me cut costs you know we were talking about how off off camera how you know software can actually help do that yeah it's deflationary I love the quote right so software's deflationary as costs come up how do you go drive it also free up the team and you nail it it's like okay everyone wants to save money but they're not putting off these projects in fact the digital transformation or the business it's actually moving forward but they're getting a little bit bigger but everyone's looking for creative ways to look at their architecture and it becomes larger larger we talked about a couple of those examples but like even like uh things like observability they want to give this tool set this data to all the developers all their sres same data to all the security team and then to do that they need to find a way an architect should do that scale and save money simultaneously so we see constantly people who are pairing us up with some of these larger firms like uh or like keep your data dog keep your Splunk use us to reduce the cost that one and one is actually cheaper than what you have but then they use it either to save money we're saving 50 to 80 hard dollars but more importantly to free up your team from the toil and then they they turn around and make that budget neutral and then allowed to get the same tools to more people across the org because they're sometimes constrained of getting the access to everyone explain that a little bit more let's say I got a Splunk or data dog I'm sifting through you know logs how exactly do you help so it's pretty simple I'll use dad dog example so let's say using data dog preservability so it's just your developers your sres managing environments all these platforms are really good at being a monitoring alerting type of tool what they're not necessarily great at is keeping the data for longer periods like the log data the bigger data that's where we're strong what you see is like a data dog let's say you're using it for a minister for to keep 30 days of logs which is not enough like let's say you're running environment you're finding that performance issue you kind of want to look to last quarter in last month in or maybe last Black Friday so 30 days is not enough but will charge you two eighty two dollars and eighty cents a gigabyte don't focus on just 280 and then if you just turn the knob and keep seven days but keep two years of data on us which is on S3 it goes down to 22 cents plus our list price of 80 cents goes to a dollar two compared to 280. so here's the thing what they're able to do is just turn a knob get more data we do an integration so you can go right from data dog or grafana directly into our platform so the user doesn't see it but they save money A lot of times they don't just save the money now they use that to go fund and get data dog to a lot more people make sense so it's a creativity they're looking at it and they're looking at tools we see the same thing with a grafana if you look at the whole grafana play which is hey you can't put it in one place but put Prometheus for metrics or traces we fit well with logs but they're using that to bring down their costs because a lot of this data just really bogs down these applications the alerting monitoring are good at small data they're not good at the big data which is what we're really good at and then the one and one is actually less than you paid for the one so it and it works pretty well so things are really unpredictable right now in the economy you know during the pandemic we've sort of lockdown and then the stock market went crazy we're like okay it's going to end it's going to end and then it looked like it was going to end and then it you know but last year it reinvented just just in that sweet spot before Omicron so we we tucked it in which which was awesome right it was a great great event we really really missed one physical reinvent you know which was very rare so that's cool but I've called it the slingshot economy it feels like you know you're driving down the highway and you got to hit the brakes and then all of a sudden you're going okay we're through it Oh no you're gonna hit the brakes again yeah so it's very very hard to predict and I was listening to jassy this morning he was talking about yeah consumers they're still spending but what they're doing is they're they're shopping for more features they might be you know buying a TV that's less expensive you know more value for the money so okay so hopefully the consumer spending will get us out of this but you don't really know you know and I don't yeah you know we don't seem to have the algorithms we've never been through something like this before so what are you guys seeing in terms of customer Behavior given that uncertainty well one thing I would highlight that I think particularly going back to what we were just talking about as far as business and digital transformation I think some customers are still appreciating the fact that where you know yesterday you may have had to to buy some Capital put out some capital and commit to something for a large upfront expenditure is that you know today the value of being able to experiment and scale up and then most importantly scale down and dynamically based on is the experiment working out am I seeing real value from it and doing that on a time scale of a day or a week or a few months that is so important right now because again it gets to I am looking for a ways to innovate and to drive Top Line growth but I I can't commit to a multi-year sort of uh set of costs to to do that so and I think plenty of customers are finding that even a few months of experimentation gives them some really valuable insight as far as is this going to be successful or not and so I think that again just of course with S3 and storage from day one we've been elastic pay for what you use if you're not using the storage you don't get charged for it and I think that particularly right now having the applications and the rest of the ecosystem around the storage and the data be able to scale up and scale down is is just ever more important and when people see that like typically they're looking to do more with it so if they find you usually find these little Department projects but they see a way to actually move faster and save money I think it is a mix of those two they're looking to expand it which can be a nightmare for sales Cycles because they take longer but people are looking well why don't you leverage this and go across division so we do see people trying to leverage it because they're still I don't think digital transformation is slowing down but a lot more to be honest a lot more approvals at this point for everything it is you know Adam and another great quote in his in his keynote he said if you want to save money the Cloud's a place to do it absolutely and I read an article recently and I was looking through and I said this is the first time you know AWS has ever seen a downturn because the cloud was too early back then I'm like you weren't paying attention in 2008 because that was the first major inflection point for cloud adoption where CFO said okay stop the capex we're going to Opex and you saw the cloud take off and then 2010 started this you know amazing cycle that we really haven't seen anything like it where they were doubling down in Investments and they were real hardcore investment it wasn't like 1998 99 was all just going out the door for no clear reason yeah so that Foundation is now in place and I think it makes a lot of sense and it could be here for for a while where people are saying Hey I want to optimize and I'm going to do that on the cloud yeah no I mean I've obviously I certainly agree with Adam's quote I think really that's been in aws's DNA from from day one right is that ability to scale costs with with the actual consumption and paying for what you use and I think that you know certainly moments like now are ones that can really motivate change in an organization in a way that might not have been as palatable when it just it didn't feel like it was as necessary yeah all right we got to go give you a last word uh I think it's been a great event I love all your announcements I think this is wonderful uh it's been a great show I love uh in fact how many people are here at reinvent north of 50 000. yeah I mean I feel like it was it's as big if not bigger than 2019. people have said ah 2019 was a record when you count out all the professors I don't know it feels it feels as big if not bigger so there's great energy yeah it's quite amazing and uh and we're thrilled to be part of it guys thanks for coming on thecube again really appreciate it face to face all right thank you for watching this is Dave vellante for the cube your leader in Enterprise and emerging Tech coverage we'll be right back foreign

(bright music) >> Hello everyone. Welcome to theCUBE's coverage of AWS re:Invent 22. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. Got some great coverage here talking about software supply chain and sustainability in the cloud. We've got a great conversation. Gunnar Hellekson, vice president and general manager at Red Hat Enterprise Linux and Business Unit of Red Hat. Thanks for coming on. And Adnan Ijaz, director of product management of commercial software services, AWS. Gentlemen, thanks for joining me today. >> It's a pleasure. (Adnan speaks indistinctly) >> You know, the hottest topic coming out of Cloud Native developer communities is slide chain software sustainability. This is a huge issue. As open source continues to power away and fund and grow this next generation modern development environment, you know, supply chain, you know, sustainability is a huge discussion because you got to check things out, what's in the code. Okay, open source is great, but now we got to commercialize it. This is the topic, Gunnar, let's get in with you. What are you seeing here and what's some of the things that you're seeing around the sustainability piece of it? Because, you know, containers, Kubernetes, we're seeing that that run time really dominate this new abstraction layer, cloud scale. What's your thoughts? >> Yeah, so I, it's interesting that the, you know, so Red Hat's been doing this for 20 years, right? Making open source safe to consume in the enterprise. And there was a time when in order to do that you needed to have a long term life cycle and you needed to be very good at remediating security vulnerabilities. And that was kind of, that was the bar that you had to climb over. Nowadays with the number of vulnerabilities coming through, what people are most worried about is, kind of, the providence of the software and making sure that it has been vetted and it's been safe, and that things that you get from your vendor should be more secure than things that you've just downloaded off of GitHub, for example. Right? And that's a place where Red Hat's very comfortable living, right? Because we've been doing it for 20 years. I think there's another aspect to this supply chain question as well, especially with the pandemic. You know, we've got these supply chains have been jammed up. The actual physical supply chains have been jammed up. And the two of these issues actually come together, right? Because as we go through the pandemic, we've got these digital transformation efforts, which are in large part, people creating software in order to manage better their physical supply chain problems. And so as part of that digital transformation, you have another supply chain problem, which is the software supply chain problem, right? And so these two things kind of merge on these as people are trying to improve the performance of transportation systems, logistics, et cetera. Ultimately, it all boils down to, both supply chain problems actually boil down to a software problem. It's very interesting. >> Well, that is interesting. I want to just follow up on that real quick if you don't mind. Because if you think about the convergence of the software and physical world, you know, that's, you know, IOT and also hybridcloud kind of plays into that at scale, this opens up more surface area for attacks, especially when you're under a lot of pressure. This is where, you know, you have a service area on the physical side and you have constraints there. And obviously the pandemic causes problems. But now you've got the software side. How are you guys handling that? Can you just share a little bit more of how you guys looking at that with Red Hat? What's the customer challenge? Obviously, you know, skills gaps is one, but, like, that's a convergence at the same time more security problems. >> Yeah, yeah, that's right. And certainly the volume of, if we just look at security vulnerabilities themselves, just the volume of security vulnerabilities has gone up considerably as more people begin using the software. And as the software becomes more important to, kind of, critical infrastructure. More eyeballs around it and so we're uncovering more problems, which is kind of, that's okay, that's how the world works. And so certainly the number of remediations required every year has gone up. But also the customer expectations, as I mentioned before, the customer expectations have changed, right? People want to be able to show to their auditors and to their regulators that no, in fact, I can show the providence of the software that I'm using. I didn't just download something random off the internet. I actually have like, you know, adults paying attention to how the software gets put together. And it's still, honestly, it's still very early days. I think as an industry, I think we're very good at managing, identifying remediating vulnerabilities in the aggregate. We're pretty good at that. I think things are less clear when we talk about, kind of, the management of that supply chain, proving the providence, and creating a resilient supply chain for software. We have lots of tools, but we don't really have lots of shared expectations. And so it's going to be interesting over the next few years, I think we're going to have more rules are going to come out. I see NIST has already published some of them. And as these new rules come out, the whole industry is going to have to kind of pull together and really rally around some of this shared understanding so we can all have shared expectations and we can all speak the same language when we're talking about this problem. >> That's awesome. Adnan, Amazon web service is obviously the largest cloud platform out there. You know, the pandemic, even post pandemic, some of these supply chain issues, whether it's physical or software, you're also an outlet for that. So if someone can't buy hardware or something physical, they can always get to the cloud. You guys have great network compute and whatnot and you got thousands of ISVs across the globe. How are you helping customers with this supply chain problem? Because whether it's, you know, I need to get in my networking gears and delay, I'm going to go to the cloud and get help there. Or whether it's knowing the workloads and what's going on inside them with respect to open source. 'Cause you've got open source, which is kind of an external forcing function. You've got AWS and you got, you know, physical compute stores, networking, et cetera. How are you guys helping customers with the supply chain challenge, which could be an opportunity? >> Yeah, thanks John. I think there are multiple layers to that. At the most basic level, we are helping customers by abstracting away all these data center constructs that they would have to worry about if they were running their own data centers. They would have to figure out how the networking gear, you talk about, you know, having the right compute, right physical hardware. So by moving to the cloud, at least they're delegating that problem to AWS and letting us manage and making sure that we have an instance available for them whenever they want it. And if they want to scale it, the capacity is there for them to use. Now then, so we kind of give them space to work on the second part of the problem, which is building their own supply chain solutions. And we work with all kinds of customers here at AWS from all different industry segments, automotive, retail, manufacturing. And you know, you see the complexity of the supply chain with all those moving pieces, like hundreds and thousands of moving pieces, it's very daunting. And then on the other hand, customers need more better services. So you need to move fast. So you need to build your agility in the supply chain itself. And that is where, you know, Red Hat and AWS come together. Where we can enable customers to build their supply chain solutions on platforms like Red Hat Enterprise Linux RHEL or Red Hat OpenShift on AWS, we call it ROSA. And the benefit there is that you can actually use the services that are relevant for the supply chain solutions like Amazon managed blockchain, you know, SageMaker. So you can actually build predictive analytics, you can improve forecasting, you can make sure that you have solutions that help you identify where you can cut costs. And so those are some of the ways we're helping customers, you know, figure out how they actually want to deal with the supply chain challenges that we're running into in today's world. >> Yeah, and you know, you mentioned sustainability outside of software sustainability, you know, as people move to the cloud, we've reported on SiliconANGLE here in theCUBE, that it's better to have the sustainability with the cloud because then the data centers aren't using all that energy too. So there's also all kinds of sustainability advantages. Gunnar, because this is kind of how your relationship with Amazon's expanded. You mentioned ROSA, which is Red Hat, you know, on OpenShift, on AWS. This is interesting because one of the biggest discussions is skills gap, but we were also talking about the fact that the humans are a huge part of the talent value. In other words, the humans still need to be involved. And having that relationship with managed services and Red Hat, this piece becomes one of those things that's not talked about much, which is the talent is increasing in value, the humans, and now you got managed services on the cloud. So we'll look at scale and human interaction. Can you share, you know, how you guys are working together on this piece? 'Cause this is interesting, 'cause this kind of brings up the relationship of that operator or developer. >> Yeah, yeah. So I think there's, so I think about this in a few dimensions. First is that it's difficult to find a customer who is not talking about automation at some level right now. And obviously you can automate the processes and the physical infrastructure that you already have, that's using tools like Ansible, right? But I think that combining it with the elasticity of a solution like AWS, so you combine the automation with kind of elastic and converting a lot of the capital expenses into operating expenses, that's a great way actually to save labor, right? So instead of like racking hard drives, you can have somebody do something a little more like, you know, more valuable work, right? And so, okay, but that gives you a platform. And then what do you do with that platform? You know, if you've got your systems automated and you've got this kind of elastic infrastructure underneath you, what you do on top of it is really interesting. So a great example of this is the collaboration that we had with running the RHEL workstation on AWS. So you might think, like, well why would anybody want to run a workstation on a cloud? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Unless you consider how complex it is to set up, if you have, the use case here is like industrial workstations, right? So it's animators, people doing computational fluid dynamics, things like this. So these are industries that are extremely data heavy. Workstations have very large hardware requirements, often with accelerated GPUs and things like this. That is an extremely expensive thing to install on-premise anywhere. And if the pandemic taught us anything, it's if you have a bunch of very expensive talent and they all have to work from home, it is very difficult to go provide them with, you know, several tens of thousands of dollars worth of workstation equipment. And so combine the RHEL workstation with the AWS infrastructure and now all that workstation computational infrastructure is available on demand and available right next to the considerable amount of data that they're analyzing or animating or working on. So it's a really interesting, it was actually, this is an idea that was actually born with the pandemic. >> Yeah. >> And it's kind of a combination of everything that we're talking about, right? It's the supply chain challenges of the customer, it's the lack of talent, making sure that people are being put to their best and highest use. And it's also having this kind of elastic, I think, OpEx heavy infrastructure as opposed to a CapEx heavy infrastructure. >> That's a great example. I think that illustrates to me what I love about cloud right now is that you can put stuff in the cloud and then flex what you need, when you need it, in the cloud rather than either ingress or egress of data. You just get more versatility around the workload needs, whether it's more compute or more storage or other high level services. This is kind of where this next gen cloud is going. This is where customers want to go once their workloads are up and running. How do you simplify all this and how do you guys look at this from a joint customer perspective? Because that example I think will be something that all companies will be working on, which is put it in the cloud and flex to whatever the workload needs and put it closer to the compute. I want to put it there. If I want to leverage more storage and networking, well, I'll do that too. It's not one thing, it's got to flex around. How are you guys simplifying this? >> Yeah, I think, so, I'll give my point of view and then I'm very curious to hear what Adnan has to say about it. But I think about it in a few dimensions, right? So there is a technically, like, any solution that Adnan's team and my team want to put together needs to be kind of technically coherent, right? Things need to work well together. But that's not even most of the job. Most of the job is actually ensuring an operational consistency and operational simplicity, so that everything is, the day-to-day operations of these things kind of work well together. And then also, all the way to things like support and even acquisition, right? Making sure that all the contracts work together, right? It's a really... So when Adnan and I think about places of working together, it's very rare that we're just looking at a technical collaboration. It's actually a holistic collaboration across support, acquisition, as well as all the engineering that we have to do. >> Adnan, your view on how you're simplifying it with Red Hat for your joint customers making collaborations? >> Yeah, Gunnar covered it well. I think the benefit here is that Red Hat has been the leading Linux distribution provider. So they have a lot of experience. AWS has been the leading cloud provider. So we have both our own points of view, our own learning from our respective set of customers. So the way we try to simplify and bring these things together is working closely. In fact, I sometimes joke internally that if you see Gunnar and my team talking to each other on a call, you cannot really tell who belongs to which team. Because we're always figuring out, okay, how do we simplify discount experience? How do we simplify programs? How do we simplify go to market? How do we simplify the product pieces? So it's really bringing our learning and share our perspective to the table and then really figure out how do we actually help customers make progress. ROSA that we talked about is a great example of that, you know, together we figured out, hey, there is a need for customers to have this capability in AWS and we went out and built it. So those are just some of the examples in how both teams are working together to simplify the experience, make it complete, make it more coherent. >> Great, that's awesome. Next question is really around how you help organizations with the sustainability piece, how to support them simplifying it. But first, before we get into that, what is the core problem around this sustainability discussion we're talking about here, supply chain sustainability, what is the core challenge? Can you both share your thoughts on what that problem is and what the solution looks like and then we can get into advice? >> Yeah. Well from my point of view, it's, I think, you know, one of the lessons of the last three years is every organization is kind of taking a careful look at how resilient it is, or I should say, every organization learned exactly how resilient it was, right? And that comes from both the physical challenges and the logistics challenges that everyone had, the talent challenges you mentioned earlier. And of course the software challenges, you know, as everyone kind of embarks on this digital transformation journey that we've all been talking about. And I think, so I really frame it as resilience, right? And resilience at bottom is really about ensuring that you have options and that you have choices. The more choices you have, the more options you have, the more resilient you and your organization is going to be. And so I know that's how I approach the market. I'm pretty sure that's how Adnan is approaching the market, is ensuring that we are providing as many options as possible to customers so that they can assemble the right pieces to create a solution that works for their particular set of challenges or their unique set of challenges and unique context. Adnan, does that sound about right to you? >> Yeah, I think you covered it well. I can speak to another aspect of sustainability, which is becoming increasingly top of mind for our customers. Like, how do they build products and services and solutions and whether it's supply chain or anything else which is sustainable, which is for the long term good of the planet. And I think that is where we have also been very intentional and focused in how we design our data center, how we actually build our cooling system so that those are energy efficient. You know, we are on track to power all our operations with renewable energy by 2025, which is five years ahead of our initial commitment. And perhaps the most obvious example of all of this is our work with ARM processors, Graviton3, where, you know, we are building our own chip to make sure that we are designing energy efficiency into the process. And you know, the ARM Graviton3 processor chips, they are about 60% more energy efficient compared to some of the CD6 comparable. So all those things that also we are working on in making sure that whatever our customers build on our platform is long term sustainable. So that's another dimension of how we are working that into our platform. >> That's awesome. This is a great conversation. You know, the supply chain is on both sides, physical and software. You're starting to see them come together in great conversations. And certainly moving workloads to the cloud and running them more efficiently will help on the sustainability side, in my opinion. Of course, you guys talked about that and we've covered it. But now you start getting into how to refactor, and this is a big conversation we've been having lately is as you not just lift and shift, but replatform it and refactor, customers are seeing great advantages on this. So I have to ask you guys, how are you helping customers and organizations support sustainability and simplify the complex environment that has a lot of potential integrations? Obviously API's help of course, but that's the kind of baseline. What's the advice that you give customers? 'Cause you know, it can look complex and it becomes complex, but there's an answer here. What's your thoughts? >> Yeah, I think, so whenever I get questions like this from customers, the first thing I guide them to is, we talked earlier about this notion of consistency and how important that is. One way to solve the problem is to create an entirely new operational model, an entirely new acquisition model, and an entirely new stack of technologies in order to be more sustainable. That is probably not in the cards for most folks. What they want to do is have their existing estate and they're trying to introduce sustainability into the work that they are already doing. They don't need to build another silo in order to create sustainability, right? And so there has to be some common threads, there has to be some common platforms across the existing estate and your more sustainable estate, right? And so things like Red Hat Enterprise Linux, which can provide this kind of common, not just a technical substrate, but a common operational substrate on which you can build these solutions. If you have a common platform on which you are building solutions, whether it's RHEL or whether it's OpenShift or any of our other platforms, that creates options for you underneath. So that in some cases maybe you need to run things on-premises, some things you need to run in the cloud, but you don't have to profoundly change how you work when you're moving from one place to another. >> Adnan, what's your thoughts on the simplification? >> Yeah, I mean, when you talk about replatforming and refactoring, it is a daunting undertaking, you know, especially in today's fast paced world. But the good news is you don't have to do it by yourself. Customers don't have to do it on their own. You know, together AWS and Red Hat, we have our rich partner ecosystem, you know, AWS has over 100,000 partners that can help you take that journey, the transformation journey. And within AWS and working with our partners like Red Hat, we make sure that we have- In my mind, there are really three big pillars that you have to have to make sure that customers can successfully re-platform, refactor their applications to the modern cloud architecture. You need to have the rich set of services and tools that meet their different scenarios, different use cases. Because no one size fits all. You have to have the right programs because sometimes customers need those incentives, they need those, you know, that help in the first step. And last but not least, they need training. So all of that, we try to cover that as we work with our customers, work with our partners. And that is where, you know, together we try to help customers take that step, which is a challenging step to take. >> Yeah, you know, it's great to talk to you guys, both leaders in your field. Obviously Red Hats, I remember the days back when I was provisioning and loading OSs on hardware with CDs, if you remember those days, Gunnar. But now with the high level services, if you look at this year's reinvent, and this is kind of my final question for the segment is, that we'll get your reaction to, last year we talked about higher level service. I sat down with Adam Saleski, we talked about that. If you look at what's happened this year, you're starting to see people talk about their environment as their cloud. So Amazon has the gift of the CapEx, all that investment and people can operate on top of it. They're calling that environment their cloud. Okay? For the first time we're seeing this new dynamic where it's like they have a cloud, but Amazon's the CapEx, they're operating. So, you're starting to see the operational visibility, Gunnar, around how to operate this environment. And it's not hybrid, this, that, it's just, it's cloud. This is kind of an inflection point. Do you guys agree with that or have a reaction to that statement? Because I think this is, kind of, the next gen supercloud-like capability. We're going, we're building the cloud. It's now an environment. It's not talking about private cloud, this cloud, it's all cloud. What's your reaction? >> Yeah, I think, well, I think it's very natural. I mean, we use words like hybridcloud, multicloud, I guess supercloud is what the kids are saying now, right? It's all describing the same phenomena, right? Which is being able to take advantage of lots of different infrastructure options, but still having something that creates some commonality among them so that you can manage them effectively, right? So that you can have, kind of, uniform compliance across your estate. So that you can have, kind of, you can make the best use of your talent across the estate. I mean this is, it's a very natural thing. >> John: They're calling it cloud, the estate is the cloud. >> Yeah. So yeah, so fine, if it means that we no longer have to argue about what's multicloud and what's hybridcloud, I think that's great. Let's just call it cloud. >> Adnan, what's your reaction, 'cause this is kind of the next gen benefits of higher level services combined with amazing, you know, compute and resource at the infrastructure level. What's your view on that? >> Yeah, I think the construct of a unified environment makes sense for customers who have all these use cases which require, like for instance, if you are doing some edge computing and you're running WS outpost or you know, wavelength and these things. So, and it is fair for customer to think that, hey, this is one environment, same set of tooling that they want to build that works across all their different environments. That is why we work with partners like Red Hat so that customers who are running Red Hat Enterprise Linux on-premises and who are running in AWS get the same level of support, get the same level of security features, all of that. So from that sense, it actually makes sense for us to build these capabilities in a way that customers don't have to worry about, okay, now I'm actually in the AWS data center versus I'm running outpost on-premises. It is all one. They just use the same set of CLI, command line APIs and all of that. So in that sense it actually helps customers have that unification so that consistency of experience helps their workforce and be more productive versus figuring out, okay, what do I do, which tool I use where? >> Adnan, you just nailed it. This is about supply chain sustainability, moving the workloads into a cloud environment. You mentioned wavelength, this conversation's going to continue. We haven't even talked about the edge yet. This is something that's going to be all about operating these workloads at scale and all with the cloud services. So thanks for sharing that and we'll pick up that edge piece later. But for re:Invent right now, this is really the key conversation. How to make the sustained supply chain work in a complex environment, making it simpler. And so thanks you for sharing your insights here on theCUBE. >> Thanks, thanks for having us. >> Okay, this is theCUBE's coverage of AWS re:Invent 22. I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching. (bright music)

>>Hello and run. Welcome back to the Cube's live coverage here. Day three of Cube's coverage, two sets, wall to wall coverage. Third set upstairs in the Executive Briefing Center. I'm John Furry, host of the Cube with Dave Alon. Two other hosts here. Lot of action. Dave. The cheer here is the CEO of MongoDB, exclusive post on Silicon Angle for your prior to the event. Thanks for doing that. Great to see >>You. Likewise. Nice to see you >>Coming on. See you David. So it's great to catch up. Prior to the event for that exclusive story on ecosystem, your perspective that resonated with a lot of the people. The traffic on that post and comments have been off the charts. I think we're seeing a ecosystem kind of surge and not change over, but like a an and ISV and new platform. So I really appreciate your perspective as a platform ISV for aws. What's it like? What's this event like? What's your learnings? What's your takeaway from your customers here this year? What's the most important story going on? >>First of all, I think being here is important for us because we have so many customers and partners here. In fact, if you look at the customers that Amazon themselves announced about two thirds of those customers or MongoDB customers. So we have a huge overlap in customers here. So just connecting with customers and partners has been important. Obviously a lot of them are thinking about their plans going to next year. So we're kind of meeting with them to think about what their priorities are and how we can help. And also we're sharing a little bit of our product roadmap in terms of where we're going and helping them think through like how they can best use Mongadi B as they think about their data strategy, you know, going to next year. So it's been a very productive end. We have a lot of people here, a lot of sales people, a lot of product people, and there's tons of customers here. So we can get a lot accomplished in a few days. >>Dave and I always talk on the cube. Well, Dave always goes to the TAM expansion question. Expanding your total stressful market, the market is changing and you guys have a great position growing positioned. How do you look at the total addressable market for Mongo changing? Where's the growth gonna come from? How do you see your role in the market and how does that impact your current business model? >>Yeah, our whole goal is to really enable developers to think about Mongo, to be first when they're building modern applications. So what we've done is first built a fir, a first class transactional platform and now we've kind expanding the platform to do things like search and analytics, right? And so we are really offering a broad set of capabilities. Now our primary focus is the developer and helping developers build these amazing applications and giving them tools to really do so in a very quick way. So if you think about customers like Intuit, customers like Canva, customers like, you know, Verizon, at and t, you know, who are just using us to really transform their business. It's either to build new applications quickly to do things at a certain level of performance of scale they've never done before. And so really enabling them to do so much more in building these next generation applications that they can build anywhere else. >>So I was listening to McDermott, bill McDermott this morning. Yeah. And you listen to Bill, you just wanna buy from the guy, right? He's amazing. But he was basically saying, look, companies like he was talking about ServiceNow that could help organizations digitally transform, et cetera, but make money or save money or in a good position. And I said, right, Mongo's definitely one of those companies. What are those conversations like here? I know you've been meeting with customers, it's a different environment right now. There's a lot of uncertainty. I, I was talking to one of your customers said, yeah, I'm up for renewal. I love Mongo. I'm gonna see if they can stage my payments a little bit. You know, things like that. Are those conversations? Yeah, you know, similar to what >>You having, we clearly customers are getting a little bit more prudent, but we haven't seen any kind of like slow down terms of deal cycles or, or elongated sales cycles. I mean, obviously different customers in different sectors are going through different issues. What we are seeing customers think about is like how can I, you know, either drive more efficiency in my business like and big part of that is modernization of my existing legacy tech stack. How can maybe consolidate to a fewer set of vendors? I think they like our broad platform story. You know, rather than using three or four different databases, they can use MongoDB to do everything. So that that resonates with customers and the fact that they can move fast, right? Developer productivity is a proxy for innovation. And so being able to move fast to either seize new opportunities or respond to new threats is really, you know, top of mind for still C level executive. >>So can your software, you're right, consolidation is the number one way in which people are save money. Can your software be deflationary? I mean, I mean that in a good way. So >>I was just meeting with a customer who was thinking about Mongo for their transactional platform, elastic for the search platform and like a graph database for a special use case. And, and we said you can do all that on MongoDB. And he is like, oh my goodness, I can consolidate everything. Have one elegant developer interface. I can keep all the data in one place. I can easily access that data. And that makes so much more sense than having to basically use a bunch of peace parts. And so that's, that's what we're seeing more and more interest from customers about. >>So one of the things I want to get your reaction to is, I was saying on the cube, now you can disagree with me if you want, but at, in the cloud native world at Cuban and Kubernetes was going through its hype cycle. The conversation went to it's getting boring. And that's good cause they want it to be boring. They don't want people to talk about the run time. They want it to be working. Working is boring. That's invisible. It's good, it's sticky, it's done. As you guys have such a great sticky business model, you got a great install base. Mongo works, people are happy, they like the product. So it's kind of working, I won't wanna say boring cuz that's, it's irrelevant. What's the exciting things that Mongo's bringing on top of the existing base of product that is gonna really get your clients and prospects enthused about the innovation from Mongo? What's what cuz it's, it's almost like electricity in a way. You guys are very utility in, in the way you do, but it's growing. But is there an exciting element coming that you see that they should pay attention to? What's, what's your >>Vision that, right, so if you look back over the last 10, 15 years, there's been big two big platform shifts, mobile and cloud. I think the next big platform shift is from what I call dumb apps to smart apps. So building more intelligence into applications. And what that means is automating human decision making and embedding that into applications. So we believe that to be a fundamentally a developer problem to solve, yes, you need data scientist to build the machine learning algorithms to train the models. Yeah. But ultimately you can't really deploy, deployed at scale unless you give developers the tools to build those smart applications that what we focused on. And a big part of that is what we call application driven analytics where people or can, can embed that intelligence into applications so that they can instead rather having humans involved, they can make decisions faster, drive to businesses more quickly, you know, shorten it's short and time to market, et cetera. >>And so your strategy to implement those smart apps is to keep targeting the developer Yes. And build on that >>Base. Correct. Exactly. So we wanna essentially democratize the ability for any customer to use our tools to build a smart applications where they don't have the resources of a Google or you know, a large tech company. And that's essentially resonating with our customer base. >>We, we were talking about this earlier after Swami's keynote, is most companies struggle to put data at the core of their business. And I don't mean centralizing it all in a single place as data's everywhere, but, but really organizing their company and democratizing data so people can make data decisions. So I think what you're saying, essentially Atlas is the platform that you're gonna inject intelligence into and allow developers to then build applications that are, you know, intelligent, smart with ai, machine intelligence, et cetera. And that's how the ones that don't have the resources of a Google or an Amazon become correct the, that kind of AI company if >>You, and that's, that's the whole purpose of a developer data platform is to enable them to have the tools, you know, to have very sophisticated analytics, to have the ability to do very sophisticated indexes, optimized for analytics, the ability to use data lakes for very efficient storage and retrieval of data to leverage, you know, edge devices to be able to capture and synchronize data. These are all critical elements to build these next generation applications. And you have to do that, but you don't want to stitch together a thousand primitives. You want to have a platform to do that. And that's where we really focus. >>You know, Dave, Dave and I, three, two days, Dave and I, Dave Ante and I have been talking a lot about developer productivity. And one observation that's now validated is that developers are setting the pace for innovation. Correct? And if you look at the how they, the language that they speak, it's not the same language as security departments, right? They speak almost like different languages, developer and security, and then you got data language. But the developers are making choices of self-service. They can accelerate, they're driving the behavior behavior into the organizations. And this is one of the things I wrote about on Friday last week was the organizational changes are changing cuz the developers set the pace. You can't force tooling down their throat. They're gonna go with what's easy, what's workable. If you believe that to be true, then all the security's gonna be in the developer pipeline. All the innovations we've driven off that high velocity developer site, we're seeing success of security being embedded there with the developers. What are you gonna bring up to that developer layer that's going to help with security, help with maybe even new things, >>Right? So, you know, it's, it's almost a cliche to say now software is in the world, right? Because every company's value props is driven by, it's either enabled to find or created through software. What that really means is that developers are eating all the work, right? And you're seeing, you saw in DevOps, right? Where developers basically enro encroach into the ops world and made infrastructure a programmable interface. You see developers, to your point, encroaching in security, embedding more and more security features into their applications. We believe the same thing's gonna happen with data scientists and business analysts where developers are gonna embed that functionality that was done by different domains in the Alex world and embed that capability into apps themselves. So these applications are just naturally smarter. So you don't need someone to look at a dashboard and say, aha, there's some insight here now I need to go make a decision. The application will do that for you and actually make that decision for you so you can move that much more quickly to run your business either more efficiently or to drive more, you know, revenue. >>Well the interesting thing about your business is cuz you know, you got a lot of transactional activity going on and the data, the way I would say what you just described is the data stack and the application stacks are coming together, right? And you're in a really good position, I think to really affect that. You think about we've, we've operationalized so many systems, we really haven't operationalized our data systems. And, and particularly as you guys get more into analytics, it becomes an interesting, you know, roadmap for Mongo and your customers. How do you see that? >>Yeah, so I wanna be clear, we're not trying to be a data warehouse, I get it. We're not trying to be like, you know, go compete. In fact, we have nice partnership with data bricks and so forth. What we are really trying to do is enable developers to instrument and build these applications that embed analytics. Like a good analogy I'd use is like Google Maps. You think about how sophisticated Google Maps has, and I use that because everyone has used Google Maps. Yeah. Like in the old, I was old enough to print out the directions, map quest exactly, put it on my lap and drive and look down. Now have this device that tells me, you know, if there's a traffic, if there's an accident, if there's something you know, going will reroute me automatically. And what that app is doing is embedding real time data into, into its decision making and making the decision for you so that you don't have to think about which road to take. Right? You, you're gonna see that happen across almost every application over the next X number of years where these applications are gonna become so much smarter and make these decisions for you. So you can just move so much more quickly. >>Yeah. Talk about the company, what status of the company, your growth plans. Obviously you're seeing a lot of news and Salesforce co CEO just resigned, layoffs at cnn, layoffs at DoorDash. You know, tech unfortunately is not impacted, thank God. I'm not that too bad. Certainly in cloud's not impacted it is impacting some of the buying behavior. We talked about that. What's going on with the company head count? What's your goals? How's the team doing? What are your priorities? >>Right? So we we're going after a big, big opportunity. You know, we recognize, obviously the market's a little choppy right now, but our long term, we're very bullish on the opportunity. We believe that we can be the modern developer data platform to build these next generation applications in terms of costs. We're obviously being a little bit more judicious about where we're investing, but we see big, big opportunities for us. And so our overall cost base will grow next year. But obviously we also recognize that there's ways to drive more efficiency. We're at a scale now. We're a 1.2 billion business. We're gonna announce our Q3 results next week. So we'll talk a little bit more about, you know, what we're seeing in the business next week. But we, we think we're a business that's growing fast. You know, we grew, you know, over 50, 50% and so, so we're pretty fast growing business. Yeah. You see? >>Yeah, Tuesday, December 6th you guys announce Exactly. Course is a big, we always watch and love it. So, so what I'm hearing is you're not, you're not stepping on the brakes, you're still accelerating growth, but not at all costs. >>Correct. The term we're using is profitable growth. We wanna, you know, you know, drive the business in a way that we think continues to seize the opportunity. But we also, we always exercise discipline. You know, I, I'm old enough where I had to deal with 2000 and 2008, so, you know, seen the movie before, I'm not 28 and have not seen these markets. And so obviously some are, you know, emerging leaders have not seen these kinds of markets before. So we're kind of helping them think about how to continue to be disciplined. And >>I like that reference to two thousand.com bubble and the financial crisis of 2008. I mentioned this to you when we chat, I'd love to get your thoughts. Now looking back for reinvent, Amazon wasn't a force in, in 2008. They weren't really that big debt yet. Know impact agility, wasn't it? They didn't hit that, they didn't hit that cruising altitude of the value pro cloud agility, time of value moving fast. Now they are. So this is the first time that they're a part of the economic equation. You're on, you're on in the middle of it with Amazon. They could be a catalyst to recover faster if plan properly. What's your CEO take on just that general and other CEOs might be watching and saying, Hey, you know, if I play this right, I could leverage the cloud. You know, Adams is leading into the cloud during a recession. Okay, I get that. But specifically there might be a tactic. What's your view on >>That? I mean, what, what we're seeing the, the hyperscalers do is really continue to kind of compete at the raw infrastructure level on storage, on compute, on network performance, on security to provide the, the kind of the building blocks for companies like Monga Beach really build on. So we're leveraging that price performance curve that they're pushing. You know, they obviously talk about Graviton three, they're talking about their training model chip sets and their inference model chip sets and their security chip sets. Which is great for us because we can leverage those capabilities to build upon that. And I think, you know, if you had asked me, you know, in 2008, would we be talking about chip sets in 2022? I'd probably say, oh, we're way beyond that. But what it really speaks to is those things are still so profoundly important. And I think that's where you can see Amazon and Google and Microsoft compete to provide the best underlying infrastructure where companies like mongadi we can build upon and we can help customers leverage that to really build the next generation. >>I'm not saying it's 2008 all over again, but we have data from 2008 that was the first major tailwind for the cloud. Yeah. When the CFO said we're going from CapEx to opex. So we saw that. Now it's a lot different now it's a lot more mature >>I think. I think there's a fine tuning trend going on where people are right sizing, fine tuning, whatever you wanna call it. But a craft is coming. A trade craft of cloud management, cloud optimization, managing the cost structures, tuning, it's a crafting, it's more of a craft. It's kind of seems like we're >>In that era, I call it cost optimization, that people are looking to say like, I know I'm gonna invest but I wanna be rational and more thoughtful about where I invest and why and with whom I invest with. Versus just like, you know, just, you know, everyone getting a 30% increase in their opex budgets every year. I don't think that's gonna happen. And so, and that's where we feel like it's gonna be an opportunity for us. We've kind of hit scap velocity. We've got the developer mind share. We have 37,000 customers of all shapes and sizes across the world. And that customer crown's only growing. So we feel like we're a place where people are gonna say, I wanna standardize among the >>Db. Yeah. And so let's get a great quote in his keynote, he said, if you wanna save money, the place to do it is in the cloud. >>You tighten the belt, which belt you tightening? The marketplace belt, the wire belt. We had a whole session on that. Tighten your belt thing. David Chair, CEO of a billion dollar company, MongoDB, continue to grow and grow and continue to innovate. Thanks for coming on the cube and thanks for participating in our stories. >>Thanks for having me. Great to >>Be here. Thank. Okay, I, Dave ante live on the show floor. We'll be right back with our final interview of the day after this short break, day three coming to close. Stay with us. We'll be right back.

(calming music) >> Hello and welcome back to fabulous Las Vegas, Nevada. We're here at AWS re:Invent day three of our scintillating coverage here on theCUBE. I'm Savannah Peterson, joined by John Furrier. John Day three energy's high. How you feeling? >> I dunno, it's day two, day three, day four. It feels like day four, but again, we're back. >> Who's counting? >> Three pandemic levels in terms of 50,000 plus people? Hallways are packed. I got pictures. People don't believe it. It's actually happening. Then people are back. So, you know, and then the economy is a big question too and it's still, people are here, they're still building on the cloud and cost is a big thing. This next segment's going to be really important. I'm looking forward to this next segment. >> Yeah, me too. Without further ado let's welcome our guests for this segment. We have Brad from AMD and we have Rahul from you are, well you do a variety of different things. We'll start with CloudFix for this segment, but we could we could talk about your multiple hats all day long. Welcome to the show, gentlemen. How you doing? Brad how does it feel? We love seeing your logo above our stage here. >> Oh look, we love this. And talking about re:Invent last year, the energy this year compared to last year is so much bigger. We love it. We're excited to be here. >> Yeah, that's awesome. Rahul, how are you feeling? >> Excellent, I mean, I think this is my eighth or ninth re:Invent at this point and it's been fabulous. I think the, the crowd, the engagement, it's awesome. >> You wouldn't know there's a looming recession if you look at the activity but yet still the reality is here we had an analyst on yesterday, we were talking about spend more in the cloud, save more. So that you can still use the cloud and there's a lot of right sizing, I call you got to turn the lights off before you go to bed. Kind of be more efficient with your infrastructure as a theme. This re:Invent is a lot more about that now. Before it's about the glory days. Oh yeah, keep building, now with a little bit of pressure. This is the conversation. >> Exactly and I think most companies are looking to figure out how to innovate their way out of this uncertainty that's kind of on everyone's head. And the only way to do it is to be able to be more efficient with whatever your existing spend is, take those savings and then apply them to innovating on new stuff. And that's the way to go about it at this point. >> I think it's such a hot topic, for everyone that we're talking about. I mean, total cost optimization figuring out ways to be more efficient. I know that that's a big part of your mission at CloudFix. So just in case the audience isn't versed, give us the pitch. >> Okay, so a little bit of background on this. So the other hat I wear is CTO of ESW Capital. We have over 150 enterprise software companies within the portfolio. And one of my jobs is also to manage and run about 40 to 45,000 AWS accounts of our own. >> Casual number, just a few, just a couple pocket change, no big deal. >> And like everyone else here in the audience, yeah we had a problem with our costs, just going out of control and as we were looking at a lot of the tools to help us kind of get more efficient one of the biggest issues was that while people give you a lot of recommendations recommendations are way too far from realized savings. And we were running through the challenge of how do you take recommendation and turn them into real savings and multiple different hurdles. The short story being, we had to create CloudFix to actually realize those savings. So we took AWS recommendations around cost, filtered them down to the ones that are completely non-disruptive in nature, implemented those as simple automations that everyone could just run and realize those savings right away. We then took those savings and then started applying them to innovating and doing new interesting things with that money. >> Is there a best practice in your mind that you see merging in this time? People start more focused on it. Is there a method or a purpose kind of best practice of how to approach cost optimization? >> I think one of the things that most people don't realize is that cost optimization is not a one and done thing. It is literally nonstop. Which means that, on one hand AWS is constantly creating new services. There are over a hundred thousand API at this point of time How to use them right, how to use them efficiently You also have a problem of choice. Developers are constantly discovering new services discovering new ways to utilize them. And they are behaving in ways that you had not anticipated before. So you have to stay on top of things all the time. And really the only way to kind of stay on top is to have automation that helps you stay on top of all of these things. So yeah, finding efficiencies, standardizing your practices about how you leverage these AWS services and then automating the governance and hygiene around how you utilize them is really the key >> Brad tell me what this means for AMD and what working with CloudFix and Rahul does for your customers. >> Well, the idea of efficiency and cost optimization is near and dear to our heart. We have the leading. >> It's near and dear to everyone's heart, right now. (group laughs) >> But we are the leaders in x86 price performance and density and power efficiency. So this is something that's actually part of our core culture. We've been doing this a long time and what's interesting is most companies don't understand how much more efficiency they can get out of their applications aside from just the choices they make in cloud. but that's the one thing, the message we're giving to everybody is choice matters very much when it comes to your cloud solutions and just deciding what type of instance types you choose can have a massive impact on your bottom line. And so we are excited to partner with CloudFix, they've got a great model for this and they make it very easier for our customers to help identify those areas. And then AMD can come in as well and then help provide additional insight into those applications what else they can squeeze out of it. So it's a great relationship. >> If I hear you correctly, then there's more choice for the customers, faster selection, so no bad choices means bad performance if they have a workload or an app that needs to run, is that where you you kind of get into the, is that where it is or more? >> Well, I mean from the AMD side right now, one of the things they do very quickly is they identify where the low hanging fruit is. So it's the thing about x86 compatibility, you can shift instance types instantly in most cases without any change to your environment at all. And CloudFix has an automated tool to do that. And that's one thing you can immediately have an impact on your cost without having to do any work at all. And customers love that. >> What's the alternative if this doesn't exist they have to go manually figure it out or it gets them in the face or they see the numbers don't work or what's the, if you don't have the tool to automate what's the customer's experience >> The alternative is that you actually have people look at every single instance of usage of resources and try and figure out how to do this. At cloud scale, that just doesn't make sense. You just can't. >> It's too many different options. >> Correct The reality is that your resources your human resources are literally your most expensive part of your budget. You want to leverage all the amazing people you have to do the amazing work. This is not amazing work. This is mundane. >> So you free up all the people time. >> Correct, you free up wasting their time and resources on doing something that's mundane, simple and should be automated, because that's the only way you scale. >> I think of you is like a little helper in the background helping me save money while I'm not thinking about it. It's like a good financial planner making you money since we're talking about the economy >> Pretty much, the other analogy that I give to all the technologists is this is like garbage collection. Like for most languages when you are coding, you have these new languages that do garbage collection for you. You don't do memory management and stuff where developers back in the day used to do that. Why do that when you can have technology do that in an automated manner for you in an optimal way. So just kind of freeing up your developer's time from doing this stuff that's mundane and it's a standard best practice. One of the things that we leverage AMD for, is they've helped us define the process of seamlessly migrating folks over to AMD based instances without any major disruptions or trying to minimize every aspect of disruption. So all the best practices are kind of borrowed from them, borrowed from AWS in most other cases. And we basically put them in the automation so that you don't ever have to worry about that stuff. >> Well you're getting so much data you have the opportunity to really streamline, I mean I love this, because you can look across industry, across verticals and behavior of what other folks are doing. Learn from that and apply that in the background to all your different customers. >> So how big is the company? How big is the team? >> So we have people in about 130 different countries. So we've completely been remote and global and actually the cloud has been one of the big enablers of that. >> That's awesome, 130 countries. >> And that's the best part of it. I was just telling Brad a short while ago that's allowed us to hire the best talent from across the world and they spend their time building new amazing products and new solutions instead of doing all this other mundane stuff. So we are big believers in automation not only for our world. And once our customers started asking us about or telling us about the same problem that they were having that's when we actually took what we had internally for our own purpose. We packaged it up as CloudFix and launched it last year at re:Invent. >> If the customers aren't thinking about automation then they're going to probably have struggle. They're going to probably struggle. I mean with more data coming in you see the data story here more data's coming in, more automation. And this year Brad price performance, I've heard the word price performance more this year at re:Invent than any other year I've heard it before, but this year, price performance not performance, price performance. So you're starting to hear that dialogue of squeeze, understand the use cases use the right specialized processor instance starting to see that evolve. >> Yeah and and there's so much to it. I mean, AMD right out of the box is any instance is 10% less expensive than the equivalent in the market right now on AWS. They do a great job of maximizing those products. We've got our Zen four core general processor family just released in November and it's going to be a beast. Yeah, we're very excited about it and AWS announced support for it so we're excited to see what they deliver there too. But price performance is so critical and again it's going back to the complexity of these environments. Giving some of these enterprises some help, to help them understand where they can get additional value. It goes well beyond the retail price. There's a lot more money to be shaved off the top just by spending time thinking about those applications. >> Yeah, absolutely. I love that you talked about collaboration we've been talking about community. I want to acknowledge the AWS super fans here, standing behind the stage. Rahul, I know that you are an AWS super fan. Can you tell us about that community and the program? >> Yeah, so I have been involved with AWS and building products with AWS since 2007. So it's kind of 15 years back when literally there were just a handful of API for launching EC2 instances and S3. >> Not the a hundred thousand that you mentioned earlier, my goodness, the scale. >> So I think I feel very privileged and honored that I have been part of that journey and have had to learn or have had the opportunity to learn both from successes and failures. And it's just my way of contributing back to that community. So we are part of the FinOps foundation as well, contributing through that. I run a podcast called AWS Insiders and a livestream called AWS Made Easy. So we are trying to make sure that people out there are able to understand how to leverage AWS in the best possible way. And yeah, we are there to help and hold their hand through it. >> Talk about the community, take a minute to explain to the audience watching the community around this cost optimization area. It's evolving, you mentioned FinOps. There's a whole large community developing, of practitioners and technologists coming together to look at this. What does this all mean? Talk about this community. >> So cost management within organizations is has evolved so drastically that organizations haven't really coped with it. Historically, you've had finance teams basically buy a lot of infrastructure, which is CapEx and the engineering teams had kind of an upper bound on what they would spend and where they would spend. Suddenly with cloud, that's kind of enabled so much innovation all of a sudden, everyone's realized it, five years was spent figuring out whether people should be on the cloud or not. That's no longer a question, right. Everyone needs to be in the cloud and I think that's a no-brainer. The problem there is that suddenly your operating model has moved from CapEx to OpEx. And organizations haven't really figured out how to deal with it. Finance now no longer has the controls to control and manage and forecast costs. Engineering has never had to deal with it in the past and suddenly now they have to figure out how to do all this finance stuff. And procurement finds itself in a very awkward way position because they are no longer doing these negotiations like they were doing in the past where it was okay right up front before you engage, you do these negotiations. Now it's kind of an ongoing thing and it's constantly changing. Like every day is different. >> And you got marketplace >> And you got marketplace. So it's a very complex situation and I think what we are trying to do with the FinOps foundation is try and take a lot of the best practices across organizations that have been doing this at least for the last 10, 15 years. Take all the learnings and failures and turn them into hopefully opinionated approaches that people can take organizations can take to navigate through this faster rather than kind of falter and then decide that oh, this is not for us. >> Yeah. It's a great model, it's a great model. >> I know it's time John, go ahead. >> All right so, we got a little bumper sticker exercise we used to say what's the bumper sticker for the show? We used to say that, now we're modernizing, we're saying if you had to do an Instagram reel right now, short hot take of what's going on at re:Invent this year with AMD or CloudFix or just in general what would be the sizzle reel, that would be on Instagram or TikTok, go. >> Look, I think when you're at re:Invent right now and number one the energy is fantastic. 23 is going to be a building year. We've got a lot of difficult times ahead financially but it's the time, the ones that come out of 23 stronger and more efficient, and cost optimize are going to survive the long run. So now's the time to build. >> Well done, Rahul let's go for it. >> Yeah, so like Brad said, cost and efficiencies at the top of everyone's mind. Stuff that's the low hanging fruit, easy, use automation. Apply your sources to do most of the innovation. Take the easiest part to realizing savings and operate as efficiently as you possibly can. I think that's got to be key. >> I think they nailed it. They both nailed it. Wow, well it was really good. >> I put you on our talent list of >> And alright, so we repeat them. Are you part of our host team? I love this, I absolutely love this Rahul we wish you the best at CloudFix and your 17 other jobs. And I am genuinely impressed. Do you sleep actually? Last question. >> I do, I do. I have an amazing team that really helps me with all of this. So yeah, thanks to them and thank you for having us here. >> It's been fantastic. >> It's our pleasure. And Brad, I'm delighted we get you both now and again on our next segment. Thank you for being here with us. >> Thank you very much. >> And thank you all for tuning in to our live coverage here at AWS re:Invent, in fabulous Sin City with John Furrier, my name's Savannah Peterson. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in high tech coverage. (calm music)

(outro music) >> Hey, I'm John Furrier, here with an exclusive interview with Ali Ghodsi, who's the CEO of Databricks. Ali, great to see you. Preview for reinvent. We're going to launch this story, exclusive Databricks material on the notes, after the keynotes prior to the keynotes and after the keynotes that reinvent. So great to see you. You know, you've been a partner of AWS for a very, very long time. I think five years ago, I think I first interviewed you, you were one of the first to publicly declare that this was a place to build a company on and not just post an application, but refactor capabilities to create, essentially a platform in the cloud, on the cloud. Not just an ISV; Independent Software Vendor, kind of an old term, we're talking about real platform like capability to change the game. Can you talk about your experience as an AWS partner? >> Yeah, look, so we started in 2013. I swiped my personal credit card on AWS and some of my co-founders did the same. And we started building. And we were excited because we just thought this is a much better way to launch a company because you can just much faster get time to market and launch your thing and you can get the end users much quicker access to the thing you're building. So we didn't really talk to anyone at AWS, we just swiped a credit card. And eventually they told us, "Hey, do you want to buy extra support?" "You're asking a lot of advanced questions from us." "Maybe you want to buy our advanced support." And we said, no, no, no, no. We're very advanced ourselves, we know what we're doing. We're not going to buy any advanced support. So, you know, we just built this, you know, startup from nothing on AWS without even talking to anyone there. So at some point, I think around 2017, they suddenly saw this company with maybe a hundred million ARR pop up on their radar and it's driving massive amounts of compute, massive amounts of data. And it took a little bit in the beginning just us to get to know each other because as I said, it's like we were not on their radar and we weren't really looking, we were just doing our thing. And then over the years the partnership has deepened and deepened and deepened and then with, you know, Andy (indistinct) really leaning into the partnership, he mentioned us at Reinvent. And then we sort of figured out a way to really integrate the two service, the Databricks platform with AWS . And today it's an amazing partnership. You know, we directly connected with the general managers for the services. We're connected at the CEO level, you know, the sellers get compensated for pushing Databricks, we're, we have multiple offerings on their marketplace. We have a native offering on AWS. You know, we're prominently always sort of marketed and you know, we're aligned also vision wise in what we're trying to do. So yeah, we've come a very, very long way. >> Do you consider yourself a SaaS app or an ISV or do you see yourself more of a platform company because you have customers. How would you categorize your category as a company? >> Well, it's a data platform, right? And actually the, the strategy of the Databricks is take what's otherwise five, six services in the industry or five, six different startups, but do them as part of one data platform that's integrated. So in one word, the strategy of data bricks is "unification." We call it the data lake house. But really the idea behind the data lake house is that of unification, or in more words it's, "The whole is greater than the sum of its parts." So you could actually go and buy five, six services out there or actually use five, six services from the cloud vendors, stitch it together and it kind of resembles Databricks. Our power is in doing those integrated, together in a way in which it's really, really easy and simple to use for end users. So yeah, we're a data platform. I wouldn't, you know, ISV that's a old term, you know, Independent Software Vendor. You know, I think, you know, we have actually a whole slew of ISVs on top of Databricks, that integrate with our platform. And you know, in our marketplace as well as in our partner connect, we host those ISVs that then, you know, work on top of the data that we have in the Databricks, data lake house. >> You know, I think one of the things your journey has been great to document and watch from the beginning. I got to give you guys credit over there and props, congratulations. But I think you're the poster child as a company to what we see enterprises doing now. So go back in time when you guys swiped a credit card, you didn't need attending technical support because you guys had brains, you were refactoring, rethinking. It wasn't just banging out software, you had, you were doing some complex things. It wasn't like it was just write some software hosted on server. It was really a lot more. And as a result your business worth billions of dollars. I think 38 billion or something like that, big numbers, big numbers of great revenue growth as well, billions in revenue. You have customers, you have an ecosystem, you have data applications on top of Databricks. So in a way you're a cloud on top of the cloud. So is there a cloud on top of the cloud? So you have ISVs, Amazon has ISVs. Can you take us through what this means and at this point in history, because this seems to be an advanced version of benefits of platforming and refactoring, leveraging say AWS. >> Yeah, so look, when we started, there was really only one game in town. It was AWS. So it was one cloud. And the strategy of the company then was, well Amazon had this beautiful set of services that they're building bottom up, they have storage, compute, networking, and then they have databases and so on. But it's a lot of services. So let us not directly compete with AWS and try to take out one of their services. Let's not do that because frankly we can't. We were not of that size. They had the scale, they had the size and they were the only cloud vendor in town. So our strategy instead was, let's do something else. Let's not compete directly with say, a particular service they're building, let's take a different strategy. What if we had a unified holistic data platform, where it's just one integrated service end to end. So think of it as Microsoft office, which contains PowerPoint, and Word, and Excel and even Access, if you want to use it. What if we build that and AWS has this really amazing knack for releasing things, you know services, lots of them, every reinvent. And they're sort of a DevOps person's dream and you can stitch these together and you know you have to be technical. How do we elevate that and make it simpler and integrate it? That was our original strategy and it resonated with a segment of the market. And the reason it worked with AWS so that we wouldn't butt heads with AWS was because we weren't a direct replacement for this service or for that service, we were taking a different approach. And AWS, because credit goes to them, they're so customer obsessed, they would actually do what's right for the customer. So if the customer said we want this unified thing, their sellers would actually say, okay, so then you should use Databricks. So they truly are customer obsessed in that way. And I really mean it, John. Things have changed over the years. They're not the only cloud anymore. You know, Azure is real, GCP is real, there's also Alibaba. And now over 70% of our customers are on more than one cloud. So now what we hear from them is, not only want, do we want a simplified, unified thing, but we want it also to work across the clouds. Because those of them that are seriously considering multiple clouds, they don't want to use a service on cloud one and then use a similar service on cloud two. But it's a little bit different. And now they have to do twice the work to make it work. You know, John, it's hard enough as it is, like it's this data stuff and analytics. It's not a walk in the park, you know. You hire an administrator in the back office that clicks a button and its just, now you're a data driven digital transformed company. It's hard. If you now have to do it again on the second cloud with different set of services and then again on a third cloud with a different set of services. That's very, very costly. So the strategy then has changed that, how do we take that unified simple approach and make it also the same and standardize across the clouds, but then also integrate it as far down as we can on each of the clouds. So that you're not giving up any of the benefits that the particular cloud has. >> Yeah, I think one of the things that we see, and I want get your reaction to this, is this rise of the super cloud as we call it. I think you were involved in the Sky paper that I saw your position paper came out after we had introduced Super Cloud, which is great. Congratulations to the Berkeley team, wearing the hat here. But you guys are, I think a driver of this because you're creating the need for these things. You're saying, okay, we went on one cloud with AWS and you didn't hide that. And now you're publicly saying there's other clouds too, increased ham for your business. And customers have multiple clouds in their infrastructure for the best of breed that they have. Okay, get that. But there's still a challenge around the innovation, growth that's still around the corner. We still have a supply chain problem, we still have skill gaps. You know, you guys are unique at Databricks as other these big examples of super clouds that are developing. Enterprises don't have the Databricks kind of talent. They need, they need turnkey solutions. So Adam and the team at Amazon are promoting, you know, more solution oriented approaches higher up on the stack. You're starting to see kind of like, I won't say templates, but you know, almost like application specific headless like, low code, no code capability to accelerate clients who are wanting to write code for the modern error. Right, so this kind of, and then now you, as you guys pointed out with these common services, you're pushing the envelope. So you're saying, hey, I need to compete, I don't want to go to my customers and have them to have a staff or this cloud and this cloud and this cloud because they don't have the staff. Or if they do, they're very unique. So what's your reaction? Because this kind is the, it kind of shows your leadership as a partner of AWS and the clouds, but also highlights I think what's coming. But you share your reaction. >> Yeah, look, it's, first of all, you know, I wish I could take credit for this but I can't because it's really the customers that have decided to go on multiple clouds. You know, it's not Databricks that you know, push this or some other vendor, you know, that, Snowflake or someone who pushed this and now enterprises listened to us and they picked two clouds. That's not how it happened. The enterprises picked two clouds or three clouds themselves and we can get into why, but they did that. So this largely just happened in the market. We as data platforms responded to what they're then saying, which is they're saying, "I don't want to redo this again on the other cloud." So I think the writing is on the wall. I think it's super obvious what's going to happen next. They will say, "Any service I'm using, it better work exactly the same on all the clouds." You know, that's what's going to happen. So in the next five years, every enterprise will say, "I'm going to use the service, but you better make sure that this service works equally well on all of the clouds." And obviously the multicloud vendors like us, are there to do that. But I actually think that what you're going to see happening is that you're going to see the cloud vendors changing the existing services that they have to make them work on the other clouds. That's what's goin to happen, I think. >> Yeah, and I think I would add that, first of all, I agree with you. I think that's going to be a forcing function. Because I think you're driving it. You guys are in a way, one, are just an actor in the driving this because you're on the front end of this and there are others and there will be people following. But I think to me, I'm a cloud vendor, I got to differentiate. Adam, If I'm Adam Saleski, I got to say, "Hey, I got to differentiate." So I don't wan to get stuck in the middle, so to speak. Am I just going to innovate on the hardware AKA infrastructure or am I going to innovate at the higher level services? So what we're talking about here is the tail of two clouds within Amazon, for instance. So do I innovate on the silicon and get low level into the physics and squeeze performance out of the hardware and infrastructure? Or do I focus on ease of use at the top of the stack for the developers? So again, there's a channel of two clouds here. So I got to ask you, how do they differentiate? Number one and number two, I never heard a developer ever say, "I want to run my app or workload on the slower cloud." So I mean, you know, back when we had PCs you wanted to go, "I want the fastest processor." So again, you can have common level services, but where is that performance differentiation with the cloud? What do the clouds do in your opinion? >> Yeah, look, I think it's pretty clear. I think that it's, this is, you know, no surprise. Probably 70% or so of the revenue is in the lower infrastructure layers, compute, storage, networking. And they have to win that. They have to be competitive there. As you said, you can say, oh you know, I guess my CPUs are slower than the other cloud, but who cares? I have amazing other services which only work on my cloud by the way, right? That's not going to be a winning recipe. So I think all three are laser focused on, we going to have specialized hardware and the nuts and bolts of the infrastructure, we can do it better than the other clouds for sure. And you can see lots of innovation happening there, right? The Graviton chips, you know, we see huge price performance benefits in those chips. I mean it's real, right? It's basically a 20, 30% free lunch. You know, why wouldn't you, why wouldn't you go for it there? There's no downside. You know, there's no, "got you" or no catch. But we see Azure doing the same thing now, they're also building their own chips and we know that Google builds specialized machine learning chips, TPU, Tenor Processing Units. So their legs are focused on that. I don't think they can give up that or focused on higher levels if they had to pick bets. And I think actually in the next few years, most of us have to make more, we have to be more deliberate and calculated in the picks we do. I think in the last five years, most of us have said, "We'll do all of it." You know. >> Well you made a good bet with Spark, you know, the duke was pretty obvious trend that was, everyone was shut on that bandwagon and you guys picked a big bet with Spark. Look what happened with you guys? So again, I love this betting kind of concept because as the world matures, growth slows down and shifts and that next wave of value coming in, AKA customers, they're going to integrate with a new ecosystem. A new kind of partner network for AWS and the other clouds. But with aws they're going to need to nurture the next Databricks. They're going to need to still provide that SaaS, ISV like experience for, you know, a basic software hosting or some application. But I go to get your thoughts on this idea of multiple clouds because if I'm a developer, the old days was, old days, within our decade, full stack developer- >> It was two years ago, yeah (John laughing) >> This is a decade ago, full stack and then the cloud came in, you kind had the half stack and then you would do some things. It seems like the clouds are trying to say, we want to be the full stack or not. Or is it still going to be, you know, I'm an application like a PC and a Mac, I'm going to write the same application for both hardware. I mean what's your take on this? Are they trying to do full stack and you see them more like- >> Absolutely. I mean look, of course they're going, they have, I mean they have over 300, I think Amazon has over 300 services, right? That's not just compute, storage, networking, it's the whole stack, right? But my key point is, I think they have to nail the core infrastructure storage compute networking because the three clouds that are there competing, they're formidable companies with formidable balance sheets and it doesn't look like any of them is going to throw in the towel and say, we give up. So I think it's going to intensify. And given that they have a 70% revenue on that infrastructure layer, I think they, if they have to pick their bets, I think they'll focus it on that infrastructure layer. I think the layer above where they're also placing bets, they're doing that, the full stack, right? But there I think the demand will be, can you make that work on the other clouds? And therein lies an innovator's dilemma because if I make it work on the other clouds, then I'm foregoing that 70% revenue of the infrastructure. I'm not getting it. The other cloud vendor is going to get it. So should I do that or not? Second, is the other cloud vendor going to be welcoming of me making my service work on their cloud if I am a competing cloud, right? And what kind of terms of service are I giving me? And am I going to really invest in doing that? And I think right now we, you know, most, the vast, vast, vast majority of the services only work on the one cloud that you know, it's built on. It doesn't work on others, but this will shift. >> Yeah, I think the innovators dilemma is also very good point. And also add, it's an integrators dilemma too because now you talk about integration across services. So I believe that the super cloud movement's going to happen before Sky. And I think what explained by that, what you guys did and what other companies are doing by representing advanced, I call platform engineering, refactoring an existing market really fast, time to value and CAPEX is, I mean capital, market cap is going to be really fast. I think there's going to be an opportunity for those to emerge that's going to set the table for global multicloud ultimately in the future. So I think you're going to start to see the same pattern of what you guys did get in, leverage the hell out of it, use it, not in the way just to host, but to refactor and take down territory of markets. So number one, and then ultimately you get into, okay, I want to run some SLA across services, then there's a little bit more complication. I think that's where you guys put that beautiful paper out on Sky Computing. Okay, that makes sense. Now if you go to today's market, okay, I'm betting on Amazon because they're the best, this is the best cloud win scenario, not the most robust cloud. So if I'm a developer, I want the best. How do you look at their bet when it comes to data? Because now they've got machine learning, Swami's got a big keynote on Wednesday, I'm expecting to see a lot of AI and machine learning. I'm expecting to hear an end to end data story. This is what you do, so as a major partner, how do you view the moves Amazon's making and the bets they're making with data and machine learning and AI? >> First I want to lift off my hat to AWS for being customer obsessed. So I know that if a customer wants Databricks, I know that AWS and their sellers will actually help us get that customer deploy Databricks. Now which of the services is the customer going to pick? Are they going to pick ours or the end to end, what Swami is going to present on stage? Right? So that's the question we're getting. But I wanted to start with by just saying, their customer obsessed. So I think they're going to do the right thing for the customer and I see the evidence of it again and again and again. So kudos to them. They're amazing at this actually. Ultimately our bet is, customers want this to be simple, integrated, okay? So yes there are hundreds of services that together give you the end to end experience and they're very customizable that AWS gives you. But if you want just something simply integrated that also works across the clouds, then I think there's a special place for Databricks. And I think the lake house approach that we have, which is an integrated, completely integrated, we integrate data lakes with data warehouses, integrate workflows with machine learning, with real time processing, all these in one platform. I think there's going to be tailwinds because I think the most important thing that's going to happen in the next few years is that every customer is going to now be obsessed, given the recession and the environment we're in. How do I cut my costs? How do I cut my costs? And we learn this from the customers they're adopting the lake house because they're thinking, instead of using five vendors or three vendors, I can simplify it down to one with you and I can cut my cost. So I think that's going to be one of the main drivers of why people bet on the lake house because it helps them lower their TCO; Total Cost of Ownership. And it's as simple as that. Like I have three things right now. If I can get the same job done of those three with one, I'd rather do that. And by the way, if it's three or four across two clouds and I can just use one and it just works across two clouds, I'm going to do that. Because my boss is telling me I need to cut my budget. >> (indistinct) (John laughing) >> Yeah, and I'd rather not to do layoffs and they're asking me to do more. How can I get smaller budgets, not lay people off and do more? I have to cut, I have to optimize. What's happened in the last five, six years is there's been a huge sprawl of services and startups, you know, you know most of them, all these startups, all of them, all the activity, all the VC investments, well those companies sold their software, right? Even if a startup didn't make it big, you know, they still sold their software to some vendors. So the ecosystem is now full of lots and lots and lots and lots of different software. And right now people are looking, how do I consolidate, how do I simplify, how do I cut my costs? >> And you guys have a great solution. You're also an arms dealer and a innovator. So I have to ask this question, because you're a professor of the industry as well as at Berkeley, you've seen a lot of the historical innovations. If you look at the moment we're in right now with the recession, okay we had COVID, okay, it changed how people work, you know, people working at home, provisioning VLAN, all that (indistinct) infrastructure, okay, yeah, technology and cloud health. But we're in a recession. This is the first recession where the Amazon and the other cloud, mainly Amazon Web Services is a major economic puzzle in the piece. So they were never around before, even 2008, they were too small. They're now a major economic enabler, player, they're serving startups, enterprises, they have super clouds like you guys. They're a force and the people, their customers are cutting back but also they can also get faster. So agility is now an equation in the economic recovery. And I want to get your thoughts because you just brought that up. Customers can actually use the cloud and Databricks to actually get out of the recovery because no one's going to say, stop making profit or make more profit. So yeah, cut costs, be more efficient, but agility's also like, let's drive more revenue. So in this digital transformation, if you take this to conclusion, every company transforms, their company is the app. So their revenue is tied directly to their technology deployment. What's your reaction and comment to that because this is a new historical moment where cloud and scale and data, actually could be configured in a way to actually change the nature of a business in such a short time. And with the recession looming, no one's got time to wait. >> Yeah, absolutely. Look, the secular tailwind in the market is that of, you know, 10 years ago it was software is eating the world, now it's AI's going to eat all of software software. So more and more we're going to have, wherever you have software, which is everywhere now because it's eaten the world, it's going to be eaten up by AI and data. You know, AI doesn't exist without data so they're synonymous. You can't do machine learning if you don't have data. So yeah, you're going to see that everywhere and that automation will help people simplify things and cut down the costs and automate more things. And in the cloud you can also do that by changing your CAPEX to OPEX. So instead of I invest, you know, 10 million into a data center that I buy, I'm going to have headcount to manage the software. Why don't we change this to OPEX? And then they are going to optimize it. They want to lower the TCO because okay, it's in the cloud. but I do want the costs to be much lower that what they were in the previous years. Last five years, nobody cared. Who cares? You know what it costs. You know, there's a new brave world out there. Now there's like, no, it has to be efficient. So I think they're going to optimize it. And I think this lake house approach, which is an integration of the lakes and the warehouse, allows you to rationalize the two and simplify them. It allows you to basically rationalize away the data warehouse. So I think much faster we're going to see the, why do I need the data warehouse? If I can get the same thing done with the lake house for fraction of the cost, that's what's going to happen. I think there's going to be focus on that simplification. But I agree with you. Ultimately everyone knows, everybody's a software company. Every company out there is a software company and in the next 10 years, all of them are also going to be AI companies. So that is going to continue. >> (indistinct), dev's going to stop. And right sizing right now is a key economic forcing function. Final question for you and I really appreciate you taking the time. This year Reinvent, what's the bumper sticker in your mind around what's the most important industry dynamic, power dynamic, ecosystem dynamic that people should pay attention to as we move from the brave new world of okay, I see cloud, cloud operations. I need to really make it structurally change my business. How do I, what's the most important story? What's the bumper sticker in your mind for Reinvent? >> Bumper sticker? lake house 24. (John laughing) >> That's data (indistinct) bumper sticker. What's the- >> (indistinct) in the market. No, no, no, no. You know, it's, AWS talks about, you know, all of their services becoming a lake house because they want the center of the gravity to be S3, their lake. And they want all the services to directly work on that, so that's a lake house. We're Bumper see Microsoft with Synapse, modern, you know the modern intelligent data platform. Same thing there. We're going to see the same thing, we already seeing it on GCP with Big Lake and so on. So I actually think it's the how do I reduce my costs and the lake house integrates those two. So that's one of the main ways you can rationalize and simplify. You get in the lake house, which is the name itself is a (indistinct) of two things, right? Lake house, "lake" gives you the AI, "house" give you the database data warehouse. So you get your AI and you get your data warehousing in one place at the lower cost. So for me, the bumper sticker is lake house, you know, 24. >> All right. Awesome Ali, well thanks for the exclusive interview. Appreciate it and get to see you. Congratulations on your success and I know you guys are going to be fine. >> Awesome. Thank you John. It's always a pleasure. >> Always great to chat with you again. >> Likewise. >> You guys are a great team. We're big fans of what you guys have done. We think you're an example of what we call "super cloud." Which is getting the hype up and again your paper speaks to some of the innovation, which I agree with by the way. I think that that approach of not forcing standards is really smart. And I think that's absolutely correct, that having the market still innovate is going to be key. standards with- >> Yeah, I love it. We're big fans too, you know, you're doing awesome work. We'd love to continue the partnership. >> So, great, great Ali, thanks. >> Take care (outro music)

(outro music) >> Hey, I'm John Furrier, here with an exclusive interview with Ali Ghodsi, who's the CEO of Databricks. Ali, great to see you. Preview for reinvent. We're going to launch this story, exclusive Databricks material on the notes, after the keynotes prior to the keynotes and after the keynotes that reinvent. So great to see you. You know, you've been a partner of AWS for a very, very long time. I think five years ago, I think I first interviewed you, you were one of the first to publicly declare that this was a place to build a company on and not just post an application, but refactor capabilities to create, essentially a platform in the cloud, on the cloud. Not just an ISV; Independent Software Vendor, kind of an old term, we're talking about real platform like capability to change the game. Can you talk about your experience as an AWS partner? >> Yeah, look, so we started in 2013. I swiped my personal credit card on AWS and some of my co-founders did the same. And we started building. And we were excited because we just thought this is a much better way to launch a company because you can just much faster get time to market and launch your thing and you can get the end users much quicker access to the thing you're building. So we didn't really talk to anyone at AWS, we just swiped a credit card. And eventually they told us, "Hey, do you want to buy extra support?" "You're asking a lot of advanced questions from us." "Maybe you want to buy our advanced support." And we said, no, no, no, no. We're very advanced ourselves, we know what we're doing. We're not going to buy any advanced support. So, you know, we just built this, you know, startup from nothing on AWS without even talking to anyone there. So at some point, I think around 2017, they suddenly saw this company with maybe a hundred million ARR pop up on their radar and it's driving massive amounts of compute, massive amounts of data. And it took a little bit in the beginning just us to get to know each other because as I said, it's like we were not on their radar and we weren't really looking, we were just doing our thing. And then over the years the partnership has deepened and deepened and deepened and then with, you know, Andy (indistinct) really leaning into the partnership, he mentioned us at Reinvent. And then we sort of figured out a way to really integrate the two service, the Databricks platform with AWS . And today it's an amazing partnership. You know, we directly connected with the general managers for the services. We're connected at the CEO level, you know, the sellers get compensated for pushing Databricks, we're, we have multiple offerings on their marketplace. We have a native offering on AWS. You know, we're prominently always sort of marketed and you know, we're aligned also vision wise in what we're trying to do. So yeah, we've come a very, very long way. >> Do you consider yourself a SaaS app or an ISV or do you see yourself more of a platform company because you have customers. How would you categorize your category as a company? >> Well, it's a data platform, right? And actually the, the strategy of the Databricks is take what's otherwise five, six services in the industry or five, six different startups, but do them as part of one data platform that's integrated. So in one word, the strategy of data bricks is "unification." We call it the data lake house. But really the idea behind the data lake house is that of unification, or in more words it's, "The whole is greater than the sum of its parts." So you could actually go and buy five, six services out there or actually use five, six services from the cloud vendors, stitch it together and it kind of resembles Databricks. Our power is in doing those integrated, together in a way in which it's really, really easy and simple to use for end users. So yeah, we're a data platform. I wouldn't, you know, ISV that's a old term, you know, Independent Software Vendor. You know, I think, you know, we have actually a whole slew of ISVs on top of Databricks, that integrate with our platform. And you know, in our marketplace as well as in our partner connect, we host those ISVs that then, you know, work on top of the data that we have in the Databricks, data lake house. >> You know, I think one of the things your journey has been great to document and watch from the beginning. I got to give you guys credit over there and props, congratulations. But I think you're the poster child as a company to what we see enterprises doing now. So go back in time when you guys swiped a credit card, you didn't need attending technical support because you guys had brains, you were refactoring, rethinking. It wasn't just banging out software, you had, you were doing some complex things. It wasn't like it was just write some software hosted on server. It was really a lot more. And as a result your business worth billions of dollars. I think 38 billion or something like that, big numbers, big numbers of great revenue growth as well, billions in revenue. You have customers, you have an ecosystem, you have data applications on top of Databricks. So in a way you're a cloud on top of the cloud. So is there a cloud on top of the cloud? So you have ISVs, Amazon has ISVs. Can you take us through what this means and at this point in history, because this seems to be an advanced version of benefits of platforming and refactoring, leveraging say AWS. >> Yeah, so look, when we started, there was really only one game in town. It was AWS. So it was one cloud. And the strategy of the company then was, well Amazon had this beautiful set of services that they're building bottom up, they have storage, compute, networking, and then they have databases and so on. But it's a lot of services. So let us not directly compete with AWS and try to take out one of their services. Let's not do that because frankly we can't. We were not of that size. They had the scale, they had the size and they were the only cloud vendor in town. So our strategy instead was, let's do something else. Let's not compete directly with say, a particular service they're building, let's take a different strategy. What if we had a unified holistic data platform, where it's just one integrated service end to end. So think of it as Microsoft office, which contains PowerPoint, and Word, and Excel and even Access, if you want to use it. What if we build that and AWS has this really amazing knack for releasing things, you know services, lots of them, every reinvent. And they're sort of a DevOps person's dream and you can stitch these together and you know you have to be technical. How do we elevate that and make it simpler and integrate it? That was our original strategy and it resonated with a segment of the market. And the reason it worked with AWS so that we wouldn't butt heads with AWS was because we weren't a direct replacement for this service or for that service, we were taking a different approach. And AWS, because credit goes to them, they're so customer obsessed, they would actually do what's right for the customer. So if the customer said we want this unified thing, their sellers would actually say, okay, so then you should use Databricks. So they truly are customer obsessed in that way. And I really mean it, John. Things have changed over the years. They're not the only cloud anymore. You know, Azure is real, GCP is real, there's also Alibaba. And now over 70% of our customers are on more than one cloud. So now what we hear from them is, not only want, do we want a simplified, unified thing, but we want it also to work across the clouds. Because those of them that are seriously considering multiple clouds, they don't want to use a service on cloud one and then use a similar service on cloud two. But it's a little bit different. And now they have to do twice the work to make it work. You know, John, it's hard enough as it is, like it's this data stuff and analytics. It's not a walk in the park, you know. You hire an administrator in the back office that clicks a button and its just, now you're a data driven digital transformed company. It's hard. If you now have to do it again on the second cloud with different set of services and then again on a third cloud with a different set of services. That's very, very costly. So the strategy then has changed that, how do we take that unified simple approach and make it also the same and standardize across the clouds, but then also integrate it as far down as we can on each of the clouds. So that you're not giving up any of the benefits that the particular cloud has. >> Yeah, I think one of the things that we see, and I want get your reaction to this, is this rise of the super cloud as we call it. I think you were involved in the Sky paper that I saw your position paper came out after we had introduced Super Cloud, which is great. Congratulations to the Berkeley team, wearing the hat here. But you guys are, I think a driver of this because you're creating the need for these things. You're saying, okay, we went on one cloud with AWS and you didn't hide that. And now you're publicly saying there's other clouds too, increased ham for your business. And customers have multiple clouds in their infrastructure for the best of breed that they have. Okay, get that. But there's still a challenge around the innovation, growth that's still around the corner. We still have a supply chain problem, we still have skill gaps. You know, you guys are unique at Databricks as other these big examples of super clouds that are developing. Enterprises don't have the Databricks kind of talent. They need, they need turnkey solutions. So Adam and the team at Amazon are promoting, you know, more solution oriented approaches higher up on the stack. You're starting to see kind of like, I won't say templates, but you know, almost like application specific headless like, low code, no code capability to accelerate clients who are wanting to write code for the modern error. Right, so this kind of, and then now you, as you guys pointed out with these common services, you're pushing the envelope. So you're saying, hey, I need to compete, I don't want to go to my customers and have them to have a staff or this cloud and this cloud and this cloud because they don't have the staff. Or if they do, they're very unique. So what's your reaction? Because this kind is the, it kind of shows your leadership as a partner of AWS and the clouds, but also highlights I think what's coming. But you share your reaction. >> Yeah, look, it's, first of all, you know, I wish I could take credit for this but I can't because it's really the customers that have decided to go on multiple clouds. You know, it's not Databricks that you know, push this or some other vendor, you know, that, Snowflake or someone who pushed this and now enterprises listened to us and they picked two clouds. That's not how it happened. The enterprises picked two clouds or three clouds themselves and we can get into why, but they did that. So this largely just happened in the market. We as data platforms responded to what they're then saying, which is they're saying, "I don't want to redo this again on the other cloud." So I think the writing is on the wall. I think it's super obvious what's going to happen next. They will say, "Any service I'm using, it better work exactly the same on all the clouds." You know, that's what's going to happen. So in the next five years, every enterprise will say, "I'm going to use the service, but you better make sure that this service works equally well on all of the clouds." And obviously the multicloud vendors like us, are there to do that. But I actually think that what you're going to see happening is that you're going to see the cloud vendors changing the existing services that they have to make them work on the other clouds. That's what's goin to happen, I think. >> Yeah, and I think I would add that, first of all, I agree with you. I think that's going to be a forcing function. Because I think you're driving it. You guys are in a way, one, are just an actor in the driving this because you're on the front end of this and there are others and there will be people following. But I think to me, I'm a cloud vendor, I got to differentiate. Adam, If I'm Adam Saleski, I got to say, "Hey, I got to differentiate." So I don't wan to get stuck in the middle, so to speak. Am I just going to innovate on the hardware AKA infrastructure or am I going to innovate at the higher level services? So what we're talking about here is the tail of two clouds within Amazon, for instance. So do I innovate on the silicon and get low level into the physics and squeeze performance out of the hardware and infrastructure? Or do I focus on ease of use at the top of the stack for the developers? So again, there's a channel of two clouds here. So I got to ask you, how do they differentiate? Number one and number two, I never heard a developer ever say, "I want to run my app or workload on the slower cloud." So I mean, you know, back when we had PCs you wanted to go, "I want the fastest processor." So again, you can have common level services, but where is that performance differentiation with the cloud? What do the clouds do in your opinion? >> Yeah, look, I think it's pretty clear. I think that it's, this is, you know, no surprise. Probably 70% or so of the revenue is in the lower infrastructure layers, compute, storage, networking. And they have to win that. They have to be competitive there. As you said, you can say, oh you know, I guess my CPUs are slower than the other cloud, but who cares? I have amazing other services which only work on my cloud by the way, right? That's not going to be a winning recipe. So I think all three are laser focused on, we going to have specialized hardware and the nuts and bolts of the infrastructure, we can do it better than the other clouds for sure. And you can see lots of innovation happening there, right? The Graviton chips, you know, we see huge price performance benefits in those chips. I mean it's real, right? It's basically a 20, 30% free lunch. You know, why wouldn't you, why wouldn't you go for it there? There's no downside. You know, there's no, "got you" or no catch. But we see Azure doing the same thing now, they're also building their own chips and we know that Google builds specialized machine learning chips, TPU, Tenor Processing Units. So their legs are focused on that. I don't think they can give up that or focused on higher levels if they had to pick bets. And I think actually in the next few years, most of us have to make more, we have to be more deliberate and calculated in the picks we do. I think in the last five years, most of us have said, "We'll do all of it." You know. >> Well you made a good bet with Spark, you know, the duke was pretty obvious trend that was, everyone was shut on that bandwagon and you guys picked a big bet with Spark. Look what happened with you guys? So again, I love this betting kind of concept because as the world matures, growth slows down and shifts and that next wave of value coming in, AKA customers, they're going to integrate with a new ecosystem. A new kind of partner network for AWS and the other clouds. But with aws they're going to need to nurture the next Databricks. They're going to need to still provide that SaaS, ISV like experience for, you know, a basic software hosting or some application. But I go to get your thoughts on this idea of multiple clouds because if I'm a developer, the old days was, old days, within our decade, full stack developer- >> It was two years ago, yeah (John laughing) >> This is a decade ago, full stack and then the cloud came in, you kind had the half stack and then you would do some things. It seems like the clouds are trying to say, we want to be the full stack or not. Or is it still going to be, you know, I'm an application like a PC and a Mac, I'm going to write the same application for both hardware. I mean what's your take on this? Are they trying to do full stack and you see them more like- >> Absolutely. I mean look, of course they're going, they have, I mean they have over 300, I think Amazon has over 300 services, right? That's not just compute, storage, networking, it's the whole stack, right? But my key point is, I think they have to nail the core infrastructure storage compute networking because the three clouds that are there competing, they're formidable companies with formidable balance sheets and it doesn't look like any of them is going to throw in the towel and say, we give up. So I think it's going to intensify. And given that they have a 70% revenue on that infrastructure layer, I think they, if they have to pick their bets, I think they'll focus it on that infrastructure layer. I think the layer above where they're also placing bets, they're doing that, the full stack, right? But there I think the demand will be, can you make that work on the other clouds? And therein lies an innovator's dilemma because if I make it work on the other clouds, then I'm foregoing that 70% revenue of the infrastructure. I'm not getting it. The other cloud vendor is going to get it. So should I do that or not? Second, is the other cloud vendor going to be welcoming of me making my service work on their cloud if I am a competing cloud, right? And what kind of terms of service are I giving me? And am I going to really invest in doing that? And I think right now we, you know, most, the vast, vast, vast majority of the services only work on the one cloud that you know, it's built on. It doesn't work on others, but this will shift. >> Yeah, I think the innovators dilemma is also very good point. And also add, it's an integrators dilemma too because now you talk about integration across services. So I believe that the super cloud movement's going to happen before Sky. And I think what explained by that, what you guys did and what other companies are doing by representing advanced, I call platform engineering, refactoring an existing market really fast, time to value and CAPEX is, I mean capital, market cap is going to be really fast. I think there's going to be an opportunity for those to emerge that's going to set the table for global multicloud ultimately in the future. So I think you're going to start to see the same pattern of what you guys did get in, leverage the hell out of it, use it, not in the way just to host, but to refactor and take down territory of markets. So number one, and then ultimately you get into, okay, I want to run some SLA across services, then there's a little bit more complication. I think that's where you guys put that beautiful paper out on Sky Computing. Okay, that makes sense. Now if you go to today's market, okay, I'm betting on Amazon because they're the best, this is the best cloud win scenario, not the most robust cloud. So if I'm a developer, I want the best. How do you look at their bet when it comes to data? Because now they've got machine learning, Swami's got a big keynote on Wednesday, I'm expecting to see a lot of AI and machine learning. I'm expecting to hear an end to end data story. This is what you do, so as a major partner, how do you view the moves Amazon's making and the bets they're making with data and machine learning and AI? >> First I want to lift off my hat to AWS for being customer obsessed. So I know that if a customer wants Databricks, I know that AWS and their sellers will actually help us get that customer deploy Databricks. Now which of the services is the customer going to pick? Are they going to pick ours or the end to end, what Swami is going to present on stage? Right? So that's the question we're getting. But I wanted to start with by just saying, their customer obsessed. So I think they're going to do the right thing for the customer and I see the evidence of it again and again and again. So kudos to them. They're amazing at this actually. Ultimately our bet is, customers want this to be simple, integrated, okay? So yes there are hundreds of services that together give you the end to end experience and they're very customizable that AWS gives you. But if you want just something simply integrated that also works across the clouds, then I think there's a special place for Databricks. And I think the lake house approach that we have, which is an integrated, completely integrated, we integrate data lakes with data warehouses, integrate workflows with machine learning, with real time processing, all these in one platform. I think there's going to be tailwinds because I think the most important thing that's going to happen in the next few years is that every customer is going to now be obsessed, given the recession and the environment we're in. How do I cut my costs? How do I cut my costs? And we learn this from the customers they're adopting the lake house because they're thinking, instead of using five vendors or three vendors, I can simplify it down to one with you and I can cut my cost. So I think that's going to be one of the main drivers of why people bet on the lake house because it helps them lower their TCO; Total Cost of Ownership. And it's as simple as that. Like I have three things right now. If I can get the same job done of those three with one, I'd rather do that. And by the way, if it's three or four across two clouds and I can just use one and it just works across two clouds, I'm going to do that. Because my boss is telling me I need to cut my budget. >> (indistinct) (John laughing) >> Yeah, and I'd rather not to do layoffs and they're asking me to do more. How can I get smaller budgets, not lay people off and do more? I have to cut, I have to optimize. What's happened in the last five, six years is there's been a huge sprawl of services and startups, you know, you know most of them, all these startups, all of them, all the activity, all the VC investments, well those companies sold their software, right? Even if a startup didn't make it big, you know, they still sold their software to some vendors. So the ecosystem is now full of lots and lots and lots and lots of different software. And right now people are looking, how do I consolidate, how do I simplify, how do I cut my costs? >> And you guys have a great solution. You're also an arms dealer and a innovator. So I have to ask this question, because you're a professor of the industry as well as at Berkeley, you've seen a lot of the historical innovations. If you look at the moment we're in right now with the recession, okay we had COVID, okay, it changed how people work, you know, people working at home, provisioning VLAN, all that (indistinct) infrastructure, okay, yeah, technology and cloud health. But we're in a recession. This is the first recession where the Amazon and the other cloud, mainly Amazon Web Services is a major economic puzzle in the piece. So they were never around before, even 2008, they were too small. They're now a major economic enabler, player, they're serving startups, enterprises, they have super clouds like you guys. They're a force and the people, their customers are cutting back but also they can also get faster. So agility is now an equation in the economic recovery. And I want to get your thoughts because you just brought that up. Customers can actually use the cloud and Databricks to actually get out of the recovery because no one's going to say, stop making profit or make more profit. So yeah, cut costs, be more efficient, but agility's also like, let's drive more revenue. So in this digital transformation, if you take this to conclusion, every company transforms, their company is the app. So their revenue is tied directly to their technology deployment. What's your reaction and comment to that because this is a new historical moment where cloud and scale and data, actually could be configured in a way to actually change the nature of a business in such a short time. And with the recession looming, no one's got time to wait. >> Yeah, absolutely. Look, the secular tailwind in the market is that of, you know, 10 years ago it was software is eating the world, now it's AI's going to eat all of software software. So more and more we're going to have, wherever you have software, which is everywhere now because it's eaten the world, it's going to be eaten up by AI and data. You know, AI doesn't exist without data so they're synonymous. You can't do machine learning if you don't have data. So yeah, you're going to see that everywhere and that automation will help people simplify things and cut down the costs and automate more things. And in the cloud you can also do that by changing your CAPEX to OPEX. So instead of I invest, you know, 10 million into a data center that I buy, I'm going to have headcount to manage the software. Why don't we change this to OPEX? And then they are going to optimize it. They want to lower the TCO because okay, it's in the cloud. but I do want the costs to be much lower that what they were in the previous years. Last five years, nobody cared. Who cares? You know what it costs. You know, there's a new brave world out there. Now there's like, no, it has to be efficient. So I think they're going to optimize it. And I think this lake house approach, which is an integration of the lakes and the warehouse, allows you to rationalize the two and simplify them. It allows you to basically rationalize away the data warehouse. So I think much faster we're going to see the, why do I need the data warehouse? If I can get the same thing done with the lake house for fraction of the cost, that's what's going to happen. I think there's going to be focus on that simplification. But I agree with you. Ultimately everyone knows, everybody's a software company. Every company out there is a software company and in the next 10 years, all of them are also going to be AI companies. So that is going to continue. >> (indistinct), dev's going to stop. And right sizing right now is a key economic forcing function. Final question for you and I really appreciate you taking the time. This year Reinvent, what's the bumper sticker in your mind around what's the most important industry dynamic, power dynamic, ecosystem dynamic that people should pay attention to as we move from the brave new world of okay, I see cloud, cloud operations. I need to really make it structurally change my business. How do I, what's the most important story? What's the bumper sticker in your mind for Reinvent? >> Bumper sticker? lake house 24. (John laughing) >> That's data (indistinct) bumper sticker. What's the- >> (indistinct) in the market. No, no, no, no. You know, it's, AWS talks about, you know, all of their services becoming a lake house because they want the center of the gravity to be S3, their lake. And they want all the services to directly work on that, so that's a lake house. We're Bumper see Microsoft with Synapse, modern, you know the modern intelligent data platform. Same thing there. We're going to see the same thing, we already seeing it on GCP with Big Lake and so on. So I actually think it's the how do I reduce my costs and the lake house integrates those two. So that's one of the main ways you can rationalize and simplify. You get in the lake house, which is the name itself is a (indistinct) of two things, right? Lake house, "lake" gives you the AI, "house" give you the database data warehouse. So you get your AI and you get your data warehousing in one place at the lower cost. So for me, the bumper sticker is lake house, you know, 24. >> All right. Awesome Ali, well thanks for the exclusive interview. Appreciate it and get to see you. Congratulations on your success and I know you guys are going to be fine. >> Awesome. Thank you John. It's always a pleasure. >> Always great to chat with you again. >> Likewise. >> You guys are a great team. We're big fans of what you guys have done. We think you're an example of what we call "super cloud." Which is getting the hype up and again your paper speaks to some of the innovation, which I agree with by the way. I think that that approach of not forcing standards is really smart. And I think that's absolutely correct, that having the market still innovate is going to be key. standards with- >> Yeah, I love it. We're big fans too, you know, you're doing awesome work. We'd love to continue the partnership. >> So, great, great Ali, thanks. >> Take care (outro music)

(upbeat techno music) >> Hello, wonderful cloud community, and welcome to theCUBE's continuing coverage of AWS re:Invent. My name is Savannah Peterson, and I am very excited to be joined by two brilliant gentlemen today. Please welcome Keith from Cockroach Labs and Jeff from AMD. Thank you both for tuning in, coming in from the East coast. How you doing? >> Not too bad. A little cold, but we're going >> Doing great. >> Love that and I love the enthusiasm Keith, you're definitely bringing the heat in the green room before we got on, so I'm going to open this up with you. Cockroach Labs puts out a pretty infamous and useful cloud report each year. Can you tell us a little bit about that, the approach and the data that you report on? >> Yeah, so Cockroach Labs builds a distributed SQL database that we are able to run across multiple cloud regions, multiple sites, multiple data centers. Frequently is running a hybrid kind of a use case and it's important for our customers to be able to compare the performance of configurations when they don't have exact the same hardware available to them in every single location. So since we were already doing this internally for ourselves and for our customers, we decided to turn it into something we shared with the greater community. And it's been a great experience for us. A lot of people come and ask us every year, "Hey, when's the new cloud report coming out?" Because they want to read it. It's been a great win for us. >> How many different things are you looking at? I mean, when you're comparing configurations I imagine there's a lot of different complex variables there. Just how much are you taking into consideration when you publish this report? >> Yeah, so we look at micro benchmarks around CPU network and storage. And then our flagship benchmark is we use the database itself where we have the most expertise to create a real world benchmark on across all of these instances. This year I think we tested over 150 different discrete configurations and it's a bit of a labor of love for us because we then not only do we consume it for best practices for our own as a service offering, but we share it with our customers. We use it internally to make all kinds of different decisions. >> Yeah, 150 different comparisons is not a small number. And Jeff, I know that AMD's position in this cloud report is really important. Where do you fit into all of this and what does it mean for you? >> Right, so what it means for us and for our customers is, there's a good breath and depth of testing that has gone of from the lab. And you look at this cloud report and it helps them traverse this landscape of, why to go on instance A, B, or C on certain workloads. And it really is very meaningful because they now have the real data across all those dimensional kinds of tests. So this definitely helps not only the customers but also for ourselves. So we can now look at ourselves more independently for feedback loops and say, "Hey, here's where we're doing well, here's where we're doing okay, here's where we need to improve on." All those things are important for us. So love seeing the lab present out such a great report as I've seen, very comprehensive, so I very much appreciate it. >> And specifically I love that you're both fans of each other, obviously, specifically digging in there, what does it mean that AMD had the best performance ratio tested on AWS instances? >> Yeah, so when we're looking at instances, we're not just looking at how fast something is, we're also looking at how much it costs to get that level of performance because CockroachDB as a distributed system has the opportunity to scale up and out. And so rather than necessarily wanting the fastest single instance performance, which is an important metric for certain use cases for sure, the comparison of price for performance when you can add notes to get more performance can be a much more economical thing for a lot of our customers. And so AMD has had a great showing on the price performance ratio for I think two years now. And it makes it hard to justify other instance types in a lot of circumstances simply because it's cheaper to get, for each transaction per second that you need, it's cheaper to use an AMD instance than it would be a competitive instance from another vendor. >> I mean, everyone I think no matter their sector wants to do things faster and cheaper and you're able to achieve both, it's easy to see why it's a choice that many folks would like to make. So what do these results mean for CIOs and CTOs? I can imagine there's a lot of value here in the FinOps world. >> Yep. Oh, I'll start a few of 'em. So from the C-suite when they're really looking at the problem statement, think of it as less granular, but higher level. So they're really looking at CapEx, OpEx, sustainability, security, sort of ecosystem on there. And then as Keith pointed out, hey, there's this TCO conversation that has to happen. In other words, as they're moving from sort of this lift and shift from their on-prem into the cloud, what does that mean to them for spend? So now if you're looking at the consistency around sort of the performance and the total cost of running this to their insights, to the conclusions, less time, more money in their pocket and maybe a reduction for their own customers so they can provide better for the customer side. What you're actually seeing is that's the challenge that they're facing in that landscape that they're driving towards that they need guidance and help with towards that. And we find AMD lends itself well to that scale out architecture that connects so well with how cloud microservices are run today. >> It's not surprising to hear that. Keith, what other tips and tricks do you have for CIOs and CTOs trying to reduce FinOps and continue to excel as they're building out? >> Yeah, so there were a couple of other insights that we learned this year. One of those two insights that I'd like to mention is that it's not always obvious what size and shape infrastructure you need to acquire to maximize your cost productions, right? So we found that smaller instance types were by and large had a better TCO than larger instances even across the exact same configurations, we kept everything else the same. Smaller instances had a better price performance ratio than the larger instances. The other thing that we discovered this year that was really interesting, we did a bit of a cost analysis on networking. And largely because we're distributed system, we can scan span across availability zones, we can span across regions, right? And one of the things we discovered this year is the amount of cost for transferring data between availability zones and the amount of cost for transferring data across regions at least in the United States was the same. So you could potentially get more resiliency by spanning your infrastructure across regions, then you would necessarily just spanning across availability zones. So you could be across multiple regions at the same cost as you were across availability zones, which for something like CockroachDB, we were designed to support those workloads is a really big and important thing for us. Now you have to be very particular about where you're purchasing your infrastructure and where those regions are. Because those data transfer rates change depending on what the source and the target is. But at least within the United States, we found that there was a strong correlation to being more survivable if you were in a multi-region deployment and the cost stayed pretty flat. >> That's interesting. So it's interesting to see what the correlation is between things and when you think there may be relationship between variables and when there maybe isn't. So on that note, since it seems like you're both always learning, I can imagine, what are you excited to test or learn about looking forward? Jeff, let's start with you actually. >> For sort of future testing. One of those things is certainly those more scale out sort of workloads with respect to showing scale. Meaning as I'm increasing the working set, as I'm increasing the number of connections, variability is another big thing of showing that minimization from run to run because performance is interesting but consistency is better. And as the lower side is from the instant sizes as I was talking about earlier, a (indistinct) architecture lends itself so well to it because they have the local caching and the CCDs that you can now put a number of vCPUs that will benefit from that delivery of the local caching and drive better performance at the lower side for that scale out sort of architecture, which is so consistent with the microservices. So I would be looking for more of those dimensional testings variability across a variety of workloads that you can go from memory intense workloads to database persistence store as well as a blend of the two, Kafka, et cetera. So there's a great breath and depth of testing that I am looking for and to more connect with sort of the CTOs and CIOs, the higher level that really show them that that CapEx, OpEx, sustainability and provide a bit more around that side of it because those are are the big things that they're focused on as well as security, the fact that based on working sets et cetera, AMD has the ability with confidential compute around those kind of offerings that can start to drive to those outcomes and help from what the CTOs and CIOs are looking for from compliance as well. So set them out (indistinct). >> So you're excited about a lot. No, that's great. That means you're very excited about the future. >> It's a journey that continues as Keith knows, there's always something new. >> Yeah, absolutely. What about you Keith? What is the most excited on the journey? >> Yeah, there are a couple of things I'd like to see us test next year. One of those is to test a multi-region CockroachDB config. We have a lot of customers running in that configuration and production but we haven't scaled that testing up to the same breadth that we we do with our single region testing which is what we've based the cloud report on for the past four years. The other thing that I'd really love to see us do,, I'm a Kubernetes SME, at least that's kind of my technical background. I would love to see us get to a spot where we're comparing the performance of raw EC2 instances to using that same infrastructure running CockroachDB via EKS and kind of see what the differences are there. The vast majority of CockroachDB customers are running at least a portion of their infrastructure in Kubernetes. So I feel like that would be a real great value add to the report for the next time that we go around but go about publishing it. >> If I don't mind adding to that just to volley it back for a moment. And also as I was saying about the ScaleOut and how it leverages our AMD architecture so well with EKS specifically around the spin up, spin down. So you think of a whole development life cycle. As they grow and shrink the resources over time, time of those spin ups to spin downs are expensive. So that has to be as reduced as much as possible. And I think they'll see a lot of benefits in AMD's architecture with EKS running on it as well. >> The future is bright. There's a lot of hype about many of the technologies that you both just mentioned, so I'm very curious to see what the next cloud report looks like. Thank you Keith, and the team for the labor of love that you put into that every year. And Jeff, I hope that you continue to be as well positioned as everyone's innovation journey continues. Keith and Jeff, thank you so much for being on the show with us today. As you know, this is a continuation of our coverage of AWS re:Invent here on theCUBE. My name's Savannah Peterson and we'll see you for our next fascinating segment. (upbeat music)

(lively music) >> Good morning. Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage at Supercomputing Conference 2022, live here in Dallas. I'm Dave Nicholson with my co-host Paul Gillin. So far so good, Paul? It's been a fascinating morning Three days in, and a fascinating guest, Ian from AWS. Welcome. >> Thanks, Dave. >> What are we going to talk about? Batch computing, HPC. >> We've got a lot, let's get started. Let's dive right in. >> Yeah, we've got a lot to talk about. I mean, first thing is we recently announced our batch support for EKS. EKS is our Kubernetes, managed Kubernetes offering at AWS. And so batch computing is still a large portion of HPC workloads. While the interactive component is growing, the vast majority of systems are just kind of fire and forget, and we want to run thousands and thousands of nodes in parallel. We want to scale out those workloads. And what's unique about our AWS batch offering, is that we can dynamically scale, based upon the queue depth. And so customers can go from seemingly nothing up to thousands of nodes, and while they're executing their work they're only paying for the instances while they're working. And then as the queue depth starts to drop and the number of jobs waiting in the queue starts to drop, then we start to dynamically scale down those resources. And so it's extremely powerful. We see lots of distributed machine learning, autonomous vehicle simulation, and traditional HPC workloads taking advantage of AWS Batch. >> So when you have a Kubernetes cluster does it have to be located in the same region as the HPC cluster that's going to be doing the batch processing, or does the nature of batch processing mean, in theory, you can move something from here to somewhere relatively far away to do the batch processing? How does that work? 'Cause look, we're walking around here and people are talking about lengths of cables in order to improve performance. So what does that look like when you peel back the cover and you look at it physically, not just logically, AWS is everywhere, but physically, what does that look like? >> Oh, physically, for us, it depends on what the customer's looking for. We have workflows that are all entirely within a single region. And so where they could have a portion of say the traditional HPC workflow, is within that region as well as the batch, and they're saving off the results, say to a shared storage file system like our Amazon FSx for Lustre, or maybe aging that back to an S3 object storage for a little lower cost storage solution. Or you can have customers that have a kind of a multi-region orchestration layer to where they say, "You know what? "I've got a portion of my workflow that occurs "over on the other side of the country "and I replicate my data between the East Coast "and the West Coast just based upon business needs. "And I want to have that available to customers over there. "And so I'll do a portion of it in the East Coast "a portion of it in the West Coast." Or you can think of that even globally. It really depends upon the customer's architecture. >> So is the intersection of Kubernetes with HPC, is this relatively new? I know you're saying you're, you're announcing it. >> It really is. I think we've seen a growing perspective. I mean, Kubernetes has been a long time kind of eating everything, right, in the enterprise space? And now a lot of CIOs in the industrial space are saying, "Why am I using one orchestration layer "to manage my HPC infrastructure and another one "to manage my enterprise infrastructure?" And so there's a growing appreciation that, you know what, why don't we just consolidate on one? And so that's where we've seen a growth of Kubernetes infrastructure and our own managed Kubernetes EKS on AWS. >> Last month you announced a general availability of Trainium, of a chip that's optimized for AI training. Talk about what's special about that chip or what is is customized to the training workloads. >> Yeah, what's unique about the Trainium, is you'll you'll see 40% price performance over any other GPU available in the AWS cloud. And so we've really geared it to be that most price performance of options for our customers. And that's what we like about the silicon team, that we're part of that Annaperna acquisition, is because it really has enabled us to have this differentiation and to not just be innovating at the software level but the entire stack. That Annaperna Labs team develops our network cards, they develop our ARM cards, they developed this Trainium chip. And so that silicon innovation has become a core part of our differentiator from other vendors. And what Trainium allows you to do is perform similar workloads, just at a lower price performance. >> And you also have a chip several years older, called Inferentia- >> Um-hmm. >> Which is for inferencing. What is the difference between, I mean, when would a customer use one versus the other? How would you move the workload? >> What we've seen is customers traditionally have looked for a certain class of machine, more of a compute type that is not as accelerated or as heavy as you would need for Trainium for their inference portion of their workload. So when they do that training they want the really beefy machines that can grind through a lot of data. But when you're doing the inference, it's a little lighter weight. And so it's a different class of machine. And so that's why we've got those two different product lines with the Inferentia being there to support those inference portions of their workflow and the Trainium to be that kind of heavy duty training work. >> And then you advise them on how to migrate their workloads from one to the other? And once the model is trained would they switch to an Inferentia-based instance? >> Definitely, definitely. We help them work through what does that design of that workflow look like? And some customers are very comfortable doing self-service and just kind of building it on their own. Other customers look for a more professional services engagement to say like, "Hey, can you come in and help me work "through how I might modify my workflow to "take full advantage of these resources?" >> The HPC world has been somewhat slower than commercial computing to migrate to the cloud because- >> You're very polite. (panelists all laughing) >> Latency issues, they want to control the workload, they want to, I mean there are even issues with moving large amounts of data back and forth. What do you say to them? I mean what's the argument for ditching the on-prem supercomputer and going all-in on AWS? >> Well, I mean, to be fair, I started at AWS five years ago. And I can tell you when I showed up at Supercomputing, even though I'd been part of this community for many years, they said, "What is AWS doing at Supercomputing?" I know you care, wait, it's Amazon Web Services. You care about the web, can you actually handle supercomputing workloads? Now the thing that very few people appreciated is that yes, we could. Even at that time in 2017, we had customers that were performing HPC workloads. Now that being said, there were some real limitations on what we could perform. And over those past five years, as we've grown as a company, we've started to really eliminate those frictions for customers to migrate their HPC workloads to the AWS cloud. When I started in 2017, we didn't have our elastic fabric adapter, our low-latency interconnect. So customers were stuck with standard TCP/IP. So for their highly demanding open MPI workloads, we just didn't have the latencies to support them. So the jobs didn't run as efficiently as they could. We didn't have Amazon FSx for Lustre, our managed lustre offering for high performant, POSIX-compliant file system, which is kind of the key to a large portion of HPC workloads is you have to have a high-performance file system. We didn't even, I mean, we had about 25 gigs of networking when I started. Now you look at, with our accelerated instances, we've got 400 gigs of networking. So we've really continued to grow across that spectrum and to eliminate a lot of those really, frictions to adoption. I mean, one of the key ones, we had a open source toolkit that was jointly developed by Intel and AWS called CFN Cluster that customers were using to even instantiate their clusters. So, and now we've migrated that all the way to a fully functional supported service at AWS called AWS Parallel Cluster. And so you've seen over those past five years we have had to develop, we've had to grow, we've had to earn the trust of these customers and say come run your workloads on us and we will demonstrate that we can meet your demanding requirements. And at the same time, there's been, I'd say, more of a cultural acceptance. People have gone away from the, again, five years ago, to what are you doing walking around the show, to say, "Okay, I'm not sure I get it. "I need to look at it. "I, okay, I, now, oh, it needs to be a part "of my architecture but the standard questions, "is it secure? "Is it price performant? "How does it compare to my on-prem?" And really culturally, a lot of it is, just getting IT administrators used to, we're not eliminating a whole field, right? We're just upskilling the people that used to rack and stack actual hardware, to now you're learning AWS services and how to operate within that environment. And it's still key to have those people that are really supporting these infrastructures. And so I'd say it's a little bit of a combination of cultural shift over the past five years, to see that cloud is a super important part of HPC workloads, and part of it's been us meeting the the market segment of where we needed to with innovating both at the hardware level and at the software level, which we're going to continue to do. >> You do have an on-prem story though. I mean, you have outposts. We don't hear a lot of talk about outposts lately, but these innovations, like Inferentia, like Trainium, like the networking innovation you're talking about, are these going to make their way into outposts as well? Will that essentially become this supercomputing solution for customers who want to stay on-prem? >> Well, we'll see what the future lies, but we believe that we've got the, as you noted, we've got the hardware, we've got the network, we've got the storage. All those put together gives you a a high-performance computer, right? And whether you want it to be redundant in your local data center or you want it to be accessible via APIs from the AWS cloud, we want to provide that service to you. >> So to be clear, that's not that's not available now, but that is something that could be made available? >> Outposts are available right now, that have this the services that you need. >> All these capabilities? >> Often a move to cloud, an impetus behind it comes from the highest levels in an organization. They're looking at the difference between OpEx versus CapEx. CapEx for a large HPC environment, can be very, very, very high. Are these HPC clusters consumed as an operational expense? Are you essentially renting time, and then a fundamental question, are these multi-tenant environments? Or when you're referring to batches being run in HPC, are these dedicated HPC environments for customers who are running batches against them? When you think about batches, you think of, there are times when batches are being run and there are times when they're not being run. So that would sort of conjure, in the imagination, multi-tenancy, what does that look like? >> Definitely, and that's been, let me start with your second part first is- >> Yeah. That's been a a core area within AWS is we do not see as, okay we're going to, we're going to carve out this super computer and then we're going to allocate that to you. We are going to dynamically allocate multi-tenant resources to you to perform the workloads you need. And especially with the batch environment, we're going to spin up containers on those, and then as the workloads complete we're going to turn those resources over to where they can be utilized by other customers. And so that's where the batch computing component really is powerful, because as you say, you're releasing resources from workloads that you're done with. I can use those for another portion of the workflow for other work. >> Okay, so it makes a huge difference, yeah. >> You mentioned, that five years ago, people couldn't quite believe that AWS was at this conference. Now you've got a booth right out in the center of the action. What kind of questions are you getting? What are people telling you? >> Well, I love being on the show floor. This is like my favorite part is talking to customers and hearing one, what do they love, what do they want more of? Two, what do they wish we were doing that we're not currently doing? And three, what are the friction points that are still exist that, like, how can I make their lives easier? And what we're hearing is, "Can you help me migrate my workloads to the cloud? "Can you give me the information that I need, "both from a price for performance, "for an operational support model, "and really help me be an internal advocate "within my environment to explain "how my resources can be operated proficiently "within the AWS cloud." And a lot of times it's, let's just take your application a subset of your applications and let's benchmark 'em. And really that, AWS, one of the key things is we are a data-driven environment. And so when you take that data and you can help a customer say like, "Let's just not look at hypothetical, "at synthetic benchmarks, let's take "actually the LS-DYNA code that you're running, perhaps. "Let's take the OpenFOAM code that you're running, "that you're running currently "in your on-premises workloads, "and let's run it on AWS cloud "and let's see how it performs." And then we can take that back to your to the decision makers and say, okay, here's the price for performance on AWS, here's what we're currently doing on-premises, how do we think about that? And then that also ties into your earlier question about CapEx versus OpEx. We have models where actual, you can capitalize a longer-term purchase at AWS. So it doesn't have to be, I mean, depending upon the accounting models you want to use, we do have a majority of customers that will stay with that OpEx model, and they like that flexibility of saying, "Okay, spend as you go." We need to have true ups, and make sure that they have insight into what they're doing. I think one of the boogeyman is that, oh, I'm going to spend all my money and I'm not going to know what's available. And so we want to provide the, the cost visibility, the cost controls, to where you feel like, as an HPC administrator you have insight into what your customers are doing and that you have control over that. And so once you kind of take away some of those fears and and give them the information that they need, what you start to see too is, you know what, we really didn't have a lot of those cost visibility and controls with our on-premises hardware. And we've had some customers tell us we had one portion of the workload where this work center was spending thousands of dollars a day. And we went back to them and said, "Hey, we started to show this, "what you were spending on-premises." They went, "Oh, I didn't realize that." And so I think that's part of a cultural thing that, at an HPC, the question was, well on-premises is free. How do you compete with free? And so we need to really change that culturally, to where people see there is no free lunch. You're paying for the resources whether it's on-premises or in the cloud. >> Data scientists don't worry about budgets. >> Wait, on-premises is free? Paul mentioned something that reminded me, you said you were here in 2017, people said AWS, web, what are you even doing here? Now in 2022, you're talking in terms of migrating to cloud. Paul mentioned outposts, let's say that a customer says, "Hey, I'd like you to put "in a thousand-node cluster in this data center "that I happen to own, but from my perspective, "I want to interact with it just like it's "in your data center." In other words, the location doesn't matter. My experience is identical to interacting with AWS in an AWS data center, in a CoLo that works with AWS, but instead it's my physical data center. When we're tracking the percentage of IT that's that is on-prem versus off-prem. What is that? Is that, what I just described, is that cloud? And in five years are you no longer going to be talking about migrating to cloud because people go, "What do you mean migrating to cloud? "What do you even talking about? "What difference does it make?" It's either something that AWS is offering or it's something that someone else is offering. Do you think we'll be at that point in five years, where in this world of virtualization and abstraction, you talked about Kubernetes, we should be there already, thinking in terms of it doesn't matter as long as it meets latency and sovereignty requirements. So that, your prediction, we're all about insights and supercomputing- >> My prediction- >> In five years, will you still be talking about migrating to cloud or will that be something from the past? >> In five years, I still think there will be a component. I think the majority of the assumption will be that things are cloud-native and you start in the cloud and that there are perhaps, an aspect of that, that will be interacting with some sort of an edge device or some sort of an on-premises device. And we hear more and more customers that are saying, "Okay, I can see the future, "I can see that I'm shrinking my footprint." And, you can see them still saying, "I'm not sure how small that beachhead will be, "but right now I want to at least say "that I'm going to operate in that hybrid environment." And so I'd say, again, the pace of this community, I'd say five years we're still going to be talking about migrations, but I'd say the vast majority will be a cloud-native, cloud-first environment. And how do you classify that? That outpost sitting in someone's data center? I'd say we'd still, at least I'll leave that up to the analysts, but I think it would probably come down as cloud spend. >> Great place to end. Ian, you and I now officially have a bet. In five years we're going to come back. My contention is, no we're not going to be talking about it anymore. >> Okay. >> And kids in college are going to be like, "What do you mean cloud, it's all IT, it's all IT." And they won't remember this whole phase of moving to cloud and back and forth. With that, join us in five years to see the result of this mega-bet between Ian and Dave. I'm Dave Nicholson with theCUBE, here at Supercomputing Conference 2022, day three of our coverage with my co-host Paul Gillin. Thanks again for joining us. Stay tuned, after this short break, we'll be back with more action. (lively music)

from the cube studios in Palo Alto in Boston bringing you data-driven insights from the cube and ETR this is breaking analysis with Dave vellante over the past decade cloudflare has built a Global Network that has the potential to become the fourth us-based hyperscale class cloud in our view the company is building a durable Revenue model with hooks into many important markets these include the more mature DDOS protection space to other growth sectors such as zero trust a serverless platform for application development and an increasing number of services such as database and object storage and other network services in essence cloudflare could be thought of as a giant distributed supercomputer that can connect multiple clouds and act as a highly efficient scheduling engine at scale its disruptive DNA is increasingly attracting novel startups and established Global firms alike looking for Reliable secure high performance low latency and more cost-effective alternatives to AWS and Legacy infrastructure Solutions hello and welcome to this week's wikibon Cube insights powered by ETR in this breaking analysis we initiate our deeper coverage of cloudflare we'll briefly explain our take on the company and its unique business model we'll then share some peer comparisons with both the financial snapshot and some fresh ETR survey data finally we'll share some examples of how we think cloudflare could be a disruptive force with a super cloud-like offering that in many respects is what multi-cloud should have been cloudflare has been on our peripheral radar Ben Thompson and many others have written about their disruptive business model and recently a breaking analysis follower who will remain anonymous emailed with some excellent insights on cloudflare that prompted us to initiate more detailed coverage let's first take a look at how cloudflare seize the world in terms of its view of a modern stack this is a graphic from cloudflare that shows a simple three-layer Stack comprising Storage and compute the lower level and application layer and the network and their key message is basically that the big four hyperscalers have replaced the on-prem leaders apps have been satisfied and that mess of network that you see and Security in the upper left can now be handled all by cloudflare and the stack can be rented via Opex versus requiring heavy capex investment so okay somewhat of a simplified view is those companies on the the left are you know not standing still and we're going to come back to that but cloudflare has done something quite amazing I mean it's been a while since we've invoked Russ hanneman of Silicon Valley Fame on breaking analysis but remember when he was in a meeting one of his first meetings if not the first with Richard Hendricks it was the whiz kid on the show Silicon Valley and hanneman said something like if you had a blank check and you could build anything in the world what would it be and Richard's answer was basically a new internet and that led to Pied Piper this peer-to-peer Network powered by decentralized devices and and iPhones and this amazing compression algorithm that enabled high-speed data movement and low latency uh up to no low latency access across the network well in a way that's what cloudflare has built its founding premise reimagined how the internet should be built with a consistent set of server infrastructure where each server had lots of cores lots of dram lots of cash fast ssds and plenty of network connectivity and bandwidth and well this picture makes it look like a bunch of dots and points of presence on a map which of course it is there's a software layer that enables cloudflare to efficiently allocate resources across this Global Network the company claims that it's Network utilization is in the 70 percent range and it has used its build out to enter the technology space from the bottoms up offering for example free tiers of services to users with multiple entry points on different services and selling then more services over time to a customer which of course drives up its average contract value and its lifetime value at the same time the company continues to innovate and add new services at a very rapid cloud-like Pace you can think of cloudflare's initial Market entry as like a lightweight Cisco as a service the company's CFO actually he uses that term he calls it that which really must tick off Cisco who of course has a massive portfolio and a dominant Market position now because it owns the network cloudflare is a marginal cost of adding new Services is very small and goes towards zero so it's able to get software like economics at scale despite all this infrastructure that's building out so it doesn't have to constantly face the increasing infrastructure tax snowflake for example doesn't own its own network infrastructure as it grows it relies on AWS or Azure gcp and and while it gives the company obvious advantages it doesn't have to build out its own network it also requires them to constantly pay the tax and negotiate with hyperscalers for better rental rates now as previously mentioned Cloud Fair cloudflare claims that its utilization is very high probably higher than the hyperscalers who can spin up servers that they can charge for underutilized customer capacity cloudflare also has excellent Network traffic data that it can use to its Advantage with its Analytics the company has been rapidly innovating Beyond its original Core Business adding as I said before serverless zero trust offerings it has announced a database it calls its database D1 that's pretty creative and it's announced an object store called R2 that is S3 minus one both from the alphabet and the numeric I.E minus the egress cost saying no egress cost that's their big claim to fame and they've made a lot of marketing noise around about that and of course they've promised in our a D2 database which of course is R2D2 RR they've launched a developer platform cloudflare can be thought of kind of like first of all a modern CDN they've got a simpler security model that's how they compete for example with z-scaler that brings uh they also bring VPN sd-wan and DDOS protection services that are that are part of the network and they're less expensive than AWS that's kind of their sort of go to market and messaging and value proposition and they're positioning themselves as a neutral Network that can connect across multiple clouds now to be clear unlike AWS in particular cloudflare is not well suited to lift and shift your traditional apps like for instance sap Hana you're not going to run that in on cloudflare's platform rather the company started by making websites more secure and faster and it flew under the radar and much in the same way that clay Christensen described the disruption in the steel industry if you've seen that where new entrants picked off the low margin rebar business then moved up the stack we've used that analogy in the semiconductor business with arm and and even China cloudflare is running a similar playbook in the cloud and in the network so in the early part of the last decade as aws's ascendancy was becoming more clear many of us started thinking about how and where firms could compete and add value as AWS is becoming so dominant so for instance take an industry Focus you could do things like data sharing with snowflake eventually you know uh popularized you could build on top of clouds again snowflake is doing that as are others you could build private clouds and of course connect to hybrid clouds but not many had the wherewithal and or the hutzpah to build out a Global Network that could serve as a connecting platform for cloud services cloudflare has traction in the market as it adds new services like zero trust and object store or database its Tam continues to grow here's a quick snapshot of cloudflare's financials relative to Z scalar which is both a competitor and a customer fastly which is a smaller CDN and Akamai a more mature CDN slash Edge platform cloudflare and fastly both reported earnings this past week Cloud Fair Cloud flare surpassed a billion dollar Revenue run rate but they gave tepid guidance and the stock got absolutely crushed today which is Friday but the company's business model is sound it's growing close to 50 annually it has sas-like gross margins in the mid to high 70s and it's it it's got a very strong balance sheet and a 13x revenue run rate multiple in fact it's Financial snapshot is quite close to that of z-scaler which is kind of interesting which zinc sailor of course doesn't own its own network that's a pure play software company fastly is much smaller and growing more slowly than cloudflare hence its lower multiple well Akamai as you can see is a more mature company but it's got a nice business now on its earnings call this week cloudflare announced that its head of sales was stepping down and the company has brought in a new leader to take the firm to five billion dollars in sales I think actually its current sales leader felt like hey you know my work is done here bring on somebody else to take it to the next level the company is promising to be free cash flow positive by the end of the year and is working hard toward its long-term financial model or so working towards sorry it's a long-term financial model with gross margin Targets in the mid 70s it's targeting 20 non-gaap operating margins so so solid you know very solid not like completely off the charts but you know very good and to our knowledge it has not committed to a long-term growth rate but at that sort of operating profit level you would like to see growth be consistently at least in the 20 range so they could at least be a rule of 40 company or perhaps even even five even higher if they're going to continue to command a premium valuation okay let's take a look at the ETR data ETR is very positive on cloudflare and has recently published a report on the company like many companies cloudflare is seeing an across the board slowdown in spending velocity we've reported on this quite extensively using the ETR data to quantify the degree to that Slowdown and on the data set with ETR we see that many customers they're shifting their spend to Flat spend you know plus or minus let's say you know single digits you know two three percent or even zero or in the market we're seeing a shift from paid to free tiers remember cloudflare offers a lot of free services as you're seeing customers maybe turn off the pay for a while and going with the freebie but we're also seeing some larger customers in the data and the fortune 1000 specifically they're actually spending more which was confirmed on cloudflare's earnings call they did say everything across the board was softer but they did also indicate that some of their larger customers are actually growing faster than their smaller customers and their churn is very very low here's a two-dimensional graphic we'd like to share this view a lot it's got Net score or spending momentum on the vertical axis and overlap or pervasiveness in the survey on the horizontal axis and this cut isolates three segments in the etrs taxonomy that cloudflare plays in Cloud security and networking now the table inserted in that upper left there shows the raw data which informs the position of each company in the dots with Net score in the ends listed in that rightmost column the red dotted line indicates a highly elevated Net score and finally we posted the breakdown those colors in the bottom right of cloudflare's Net score the lime green that's new adoptions the forest green is we're spending more six percent or more the gray is flat plus or minus uh five percent and you can see that the majority of customers you can see that's the majority of the customers that gray area the pink is we're spending Less in other words down six percent or worse and the bright red is churn which is minimal one percent very good indicator for for cloudflare what you do to get etr's proprietary Net score and they've done this for many many quarters so we have that time series data you subtract the Reds from the greens and that's Net score cloudflare is at 39 just under that magic red line now note that cloudflare and zscaler are right on top of each other Cisco has a dominant position on the x-axis that cloudflare and others are eyeing AWS is also dominant but note that its Net score is well above the red dotted line it's incredible Palo Alto networks is also very impressive it's got both a strong presence on the horizontal axis and it's got a Net score that's pretty comparable to cloudflare and z-scaler to much smaller companies Akamai is actually well positioned for a reasonably mature company and you can see fastly ATT Juniper and F5 have far less spending momentum on their platforms than does cloudflare but at least they are in positive Net score territory so what's going to be really interesting to see is whether cloudflare can continue to hold this momentum or even accelerate it as we've seen with some other clouds as it scales its Network and keeps adding more and more services cloudflare has a couple of potential strategic vectors that we want to talk about and it'll be going to be interesting to see how that plays out Now One path is to compete more directly as a Cloud Player offering secure access Edge services like firewall as a service and zero Trust Services like data loss prevention email security from its area one acquisition and other zero trust offerings as well as Network Services like routing and network connectivity this is The Sweet Spot of the company load balancing many others and then add in things like Object Store and database Services more Edge services in the future it might be telecom like services such as Network switching for offices so that's one route and cloudflare is clearly on that path more services more cohorts at innovating and and growing the company and bringing in more Revenue increasing acvs and and increasing long-term value and keeping retention high now the other Vector is what we're just going to refer to as super cloud as an enabler of cross-cloud infrastructure this is new value uh relative to the former Vector that we were just talking about now the title of this episode is what multi-cloud should have been meaning cloudflare could be the control plane providing a consistent experience across clouds one that is fast and secure at global scale now to give you Insight on this let's take a look at some of the comments made by Matthew Prince the CEO and co-founder of cloudflare cloudflare put its R2 Object Store into public beta this past May and I believe it's storing around a petabyte of data today I think that's what they said in their call here's what Prince said about that quote we are talking to very large companies about moving more and more of their stored objects to where we can store that with R2 and one of the benefits is not only can we help them save money on the egress fees but it allows them to then use those object stores or objects across any of the different Cloud platforms they're that they're using so by being that neutral third party we can let people adopt a little bit of Amazon a little bit of Microsoft a little bit of Google a little bit of SAS vendors and share that data across all those different places so what's interesting about this in the super cloud context is it suggests that customers could take the best of each Cloud to power their digital businesses I might like AWS for in redshift for my analytic database or I love Google's machine learning Microsoft's collaboration and I'd like a consistent way to connect those resources but of course he's strongly hinting and has made many public statements that aws's egress fees are a blocker to that vision now at a recent investor event Matthew Prince added some color to this concept when he talked about one metric of success being how much R2 capacity was consumed and how much they sold but perhaps a more interesting Benchmark is highlighted by the following statement that he made he said a completely different measure of success for R2 is Andy jassy says I'm sick and tired of these guys meaning cloudflare taking our objects away we're dropping our egress fees to zero I would be so excited because we've then unlocked the ability to be the network that interconnects the cloud together now of course it would be Adam solipski who would be saying that or maybe Andy Jesse you know still watching over AWS and I think it's highly unlikely that that's going to happen anytime soon and that of course but but in theory gets us closer to the super cloud value proposition and to further drive that point home and we're paraphrasing a little bit his comments here he said something the effect of quote customers need one consistent control plane across clouds and we are the neutral Network that can be consistent no matter which Cloud you're using interesting right that Prince sees the world that's similar to if not nearly identical to the concepts that the cube Community has been putting forth around supercloud now this vision is a ways off let's be real Prince even suggested that his initial vision of an application running across multiple clouds you know that's like super cloud Nirvana isn't what customers are doing today that's that's really hard to do and perhaps you know it's never going to happen but there's a little doubt that cloudflare could be and is positioning itself as that cross-cloud control plane it has the network economics and the business model levers to pull it's got an edge up on the competition at the edge pun intended cloudflare is the definition of Edge and it's distributed platform it's decentralized platform is much better suited for Edge workloads than these giant data centers that are you know set up to to try and handle that today the the hyperscalers are building out you know their Edge networks things like outposts you know going out to the edge and other local zones Etc now cloudflare is increasingly competitive to the hyperscalers and those traditional Stacks that it depositioned on an earlier slide that we showed but you know the likes of AWS and Dell and hpe and Cisco and those others they're not sitting in their hands they have a huge huge customer install bases and they are definitely a moving Target they're investing and they're building out their own Super clouds with really robust stacks as well let's face it it's going to take a decade or more for Enterprises to adopt a developer platform or a new database Cloud plus cloudflare's capabilities when compared to incumbent stacks and the hyperscalers is much less robust in these areas and even in storage you know despite all the great conversation that R2 generated and the buzz you take a specialist like Wasabi they're more mature they're more functional and they're way cheaper even than cloudflare so you know it's not a fake a complete that cloudflare is going to win in those markets but we love the disruption and if cloudflare wants to be the fourth us-based hyperscaler or join the the big four as the as the fifth if we put Alibaba in the mix it's got a lot of work to do in the ecosystem by its own admission as much to learn and is part of the value by the way that it sees in its area one acquisition it's email security company that it bought but even in that case much of the emphasis has been on reseller channels compare that to the AWS ecosystem which is not only a channel play but is as much an innovation flywheel filling gaps where companies like snowflake Thrive side by side with aws's data stores as well all the on-prem stacks are building hybrid connections to AWS and other clouds as a means of providing consistent experiences across clouds indeed many of them see what they call cross-cloud services or what we call super cloud hyper cloud or whatever you know Mega Cloud you want to call it we use super cloud they are really eyeing that opportunity so very few companies frankly are not going after that space but we're going to close with this cloudflare is one of those companies that's in a position to wake up each morning and ask who can we disrupt today and very few companies are in a position to disrupt the hyperscalers to the degree that cloudflare is and that my friends is going to be fascinating to watch unfold all right let's call it a wrap I want to thank Alex Meyerson who's on production and manages the podcast as well as Ken schiffman who's our newest addition to the Boston Studio Kristen Martin and Cheryl Knight help us get the word out on social media and in our newsletters and Rob Hof is our editor-in-chief over at silicon angle thank you to all remember all these episodes are available as podcasts wherever you listen all you're going to do is search breaking analysis podcasts I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com you can email me at david.velante at siliconangle.com or DM me at divalante if you comment on my LinkedIn posts and please do check out etr.ai they got the best survey data in the Enterprise Tech business this is Dave vellante for the cube insights powered by ETR thank you very much for watching and we'll see you next time on breaking analysis

>>Hello everyone. Welcome to the Cube's coverage of AWS Reinvent 22. I'm John Ferer, host of the Cube. Got some great coverage here talking about software supply chain and sustainability in the cloud. We've got a great conversation. Gunner Helickson, Vice President and general manager at Red Hat Enterprise Linux and Business Unit of Red Hat. Thanks for coming on. And Edon Eja Director, Product Management of commercial software services aws. Gentlemen, thanks for joining me today. >>Oh, it's a pleasure. >>You know, the hottest topic coming out of Cloudnative developer communities is slide chain software sustainability. This is a huge issue. As open source continues to power away and fund and grow this next generation modern development environment, you know, supply chain, you know, sustainability is a huge discussion because you gotta check things out where, what's in the code. Okay, open source is great, but now we gotta commercialize it. This is the topic, Gunner, let's get in, get with you. What, what are you seeing here and what's some of the things that you're seeing around the sustainability piece of it? Because, you know, containers, Kubernetes, we're seeing that that run time really dominate this new abstraction layer, cloud scale. What's your thoughts? >>Yeah, so I, it's interesting that the, you know, so Red Hat's been doing this for 20 years, right? Making open source safe to consume in the enterprise. And there was a time when in order to do that you needed to have a, a long term life cycle and you needed to be very good at remediating security vulnerabilities. And that was kind of, that was the bar that you had that you had to climb over. Nowadays with the number of vulnerabilities coming through, what people are most worried about is, is kind of the providence of the software and making sure that it has been vetted and it's been safe, and that that things that you get from your vendor should be more secure than things that you've just downloaded off of GitHub, for example. Right? And that's, that's a, that's a place where Red Hat's very comfortable living, right? >>Because we've been doing it for, for 20 years. I think there, there's another, there's another aspect to this, to this supply chain question as well, especially with the pandemic. You know, we've got these, these supply chains have been jammed up. The actual physical supply chains have been jammed up. And, and the two of these issues actually come together, right? Because as we've been go, as we go through the pandemic, we've had these digital transformation efforts, which are in large part people creating software in order to manage better their physical supply chain problems. And so as part of that digital transformation, you have another supply chain problem, which is the software supply chain problem, right? And so these two things kind of merge on these as people are trying to improve the performance of transportation systems, logistics, et cetera. Ultimately it all boils down to it all. Both supply chain problems actually boil down to a software problem. It's very >>Interesting that, Well, that is interesting. I wanna just follow up on that real quick if you don't mind. Because if you think about the convergence of the software and physical world, you know, that's, you know, IOT and also hybrid cloud kind of plays into that at scale, this opens up more surface area for attacks, especially when you're under a lot of pressure. This is where, you know, you can, you have a service area in the physical side and you have constraints there. And obviously the pandemic causes problems, but now you've got the software side. Can you, how are you guys handling that? Can you just share a little bit more of how you guys are looking at that with Red Hat? What's, what's the customer challenge? Obviously, you know, skills gaps is one, but like that's a convergence at the same time. More security problems. >>Yeah, yeah, that's right. And certainly the volume of, if we just look at security vulnerabilities themselves, just the volume of security vulnerabilities has gone up considerably as more people begin using the software. And as the software becomes more important to kind of critical infrastructure, more eyeballs are on it. And so we're uncovering more problems, which is kind of, that's, that's okay. That's how the world works. And so certainly the, the number of remediations required every year has gone up. But also the customer expectations, as I've mentioned before, the customer expectations have changed, right? People want to be able to show to their auditors and to their regulators that no, we, we, in fact, I can show the providence of the software that I'm using. I didn't just download something random off the internet. I actually have, like you, you know, adults paying attention to the, how the software gets put together. >>And it's still, honestly, it's still very early days. We can, I think the, in as an industry, I think we're very good at managing, identifying remediating vulnerabilities in the aggregate. We're pretty good at that. I think things are less clear when we talk about kind of the management of that supply chain, proving the provenance, proving the, and creating a resilient supply chain for software. We have lots of tools, but we don't really have lots of shared expectations. Yeah. And so it's gonna be interesting over the next few years, I think we're gonna have more rules are gonna come out. I see NIST has already, has already published some of them. And as these new rules come out, the whole industry is gonna have to kind of pull together and, and really and really rally around some of this shared understanding so we can all have shared expectations and we can all speak the same language when we're talking about this >>Problem. That's awesome. A and Amazon web service is obviously the largest cloud platform out there, you know, the pandemic, even post pandemic, some of these supply chain issues, whether it's physical or software, you're also an outlet for that. So if someone can't buy hardware or, or something physical, they can always get the cloud. You guys have great network compute and whatnot and you got thousands of ISVs across the globe. How are you helping customers with this supply chain problem? Because whether it's, you know, I need to get in my networking gears delayed, I'm gonna go to the cloud and get help there. Or whether it's knowing the workloads and, and what's going on inside them with respect open source. Cause you've got open source, which is kind of an external forcing function. You got AWS and you got, you know, physical compute stores, networking, et cetera. How are you guys helping customers with the supply chain challenge, which could be an opportunity? >>Yeah, thanks John. I think there, there are multiple layers to that. At, at the most basic level we are helping customers buy abstracting away all these data central constructs that they would have to worry about if they were running their own data centers. They would have to figure out how the networking gear, you talk about, you know, having the right compute, right physical hardware. So by moving to the cloud, at least they're delegating that problem to AWS and letting us manage and making sure that we have an instance available for them whenever they want it. And if they wanna scale it, the, the, the capacity is there for them to use now then that, so we kind of give them space to work on the second part of the problem, which is building their own supply chain solutions. And we work with all kinds of customers here at AWS from all different industry segments, automotive, retail, manufacturing. >>And you know, you see that the complexity of the supply chain with all those moving pieces, like hundreds and thousands of moving pieces, it's very daunting. So cus and then on the other hand, customers need more better services. So you need to move fast. So you need to build, build your agility in the supply chain itself. And that is where, you know, Red Hat and AWS come together where we can build, we can enable customers to build their supply chain solutions on platform like Red Hat Enterprise, Linux Rail or Red Hat OpenShift on, on aws. We call it Rosa. And the benefit there is that you can actually use the services that we, that are relevant for the supply chain solutions like Amazon managed blockchain, you know, SageMaker. So you can actually build predictive and s you can improve forecasting, you can make sure that you have solutions that help you identify where you can cut costs. And so those are some of the ways we are helping customers, you know, figure out how they actually wanna deal with the supply chain challenges that we're running into in today's world. >>Yeah, and you know, you mentioned sustainability outside of software su sustainability, you know, as people move to the cloud, we've reported on silicon angle here in the cube that it's better to have the sustainability with the cloud because then the data centers aren't using all that energy too. So there's also all kinds of sustainability advantages, Gunner, because this is, this is kind of how your relationship with Amazon's expanded. You mentioned Rosa, which is Red Hat on, you know, on OpenShift, on aws. This is interesting because one of the biggest discussions is skills gap, but we were also talking about the fact that the humans are huge part of the talent value. In other words, the, the humans still need to be involved and having that relationship with managed services and Red Hat, this piece becomes one of those things that's not talked about much, which is the talent is increasing in value the humans, and now you got managed services on the cloud, has got scale and human interactions. Can you share, you know, how you guys are working together on this piece? Cuz this is interesting cuz this kind of brings up the relationship of that operator or developer. >>Yeah, Yeah. So I think there's, so I think about this in a few dimensions. First is that the kind of the, I it's difficult to find a customer who is not talking about automation at some level right now. And obviously you can automate the processes and, and the physical infrastructure that you already have that's using tools like Ansible, right? But I think that the, combining it with the, the elasticity of a solution like aws, so you combine the automation with kind of elastic and, and converting a lot of the capital expenses into operating expenses, that's a great way actually to save labor, right? So instead of like racking hard drives, you can have somebody who's somebody do something a little more like, you know, more valuable work, right? And so, so okay, but that gives you a platform and then what do you do with that platform? >>And if you've got your systems automated and you've got this kind of elastic infrastructure underneath you, what you do on top of it is really interesting. So a great example of this is the collaboration that, that we had with running the rel workstation on aws. So you might think like, well why would anybody wanna run a workstation on, on a cloud? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense unless you consider how complex it is to set up, if you have the, the use case here is like industrial workstations, right? So it's animators, people doing computational fluid dynamics, things like this. So these are industries that are extremely data heavy. They have workstations have very large hardware requirements, often with accelerated GPUs and things like this. That is an extremely expensive thing to install on premise anywhere. And if the pandemic taught us anything, it's, if you have a bunch of very expensive talent and they all have to work from a home, it is very difficult to go provide them with, you know, several tens of thousands of dollars worth of worth of worth of workstation equipment. >>And so combine the rail workstation with the AWS infrastructure and now all that workstation computational infrastructure is available on demand and on and available right next to the considerable amount of data that they're analyzing or animating or, or, or working on. So it's a really interesting, it's, it was actually, this is an idea that I was actually born with the pandemic. Yeah. And, and it's kind of a combination of everything that we're talking about, right? It's the supply chain challenges of the customer, It's the lack of lack of talent, making sure that people are being put their best and highest use. And it's also having this kind of elastic, I think, opex heavy infrastructure as opposed to a CapEx heavy infrastructure. >>That's a great example. I think that's illustrates to me what I love about cloud right now is that you can put stuff in, in the cloud and then flex what you need when you need it at in the cloud rather than either ingress or egress data. You, you just more, you get more versatility around the workload needs, whether it's more compute or more storage or other high level services. This is kind of where this NextGen cloud is going. This is where, where, where customers want to go once their workloads are up and running. How do you simplify all this and how do you guys look at this from a joint customer perspective? Because that example I think will be something that all companies will be working on, which is put it in the cloud and flex to the, whatever the workload needs and put it closer to the work compute. I wanna put it there. If I wanna leverage more storage and networking, Well, I'll do that too. It's not one thing. It's gotta flex around what's, how are you guys simplifying this? >>Yeah, I think so for, I'll, I'll just give my point of view and then I'm, I'm very curious to hear what a not has to say about it, but the, I think and think about it in a few dimensions, right? So there's, there is a, technically like any solution that aan a nun's team and my team wanna put together needs to be kind of technically coherent, right? The things need to work well together, but that's not the, that's not even most of the job. Most of the job is actually the ensuring and operational consistency and operational simplicity so that everything is the day-to-day operations of these things kind of work well together. And then also all the way to things like support and even acquisition, right? Making sure that all the contracts work together, right? It's a really in what, So when Aon and I think about places of working together, it's very rare that we're just looking at a technical collaboration. It's actually a holistic collaboration across support acquisition as well as all the engineering that we have to do. >>And on your, your view on how you're simplifying it with Red Hat for your joint customers making Collabo >>Yeah. Gun, Yeah. Gunner covered it. Well I think the, the benefit here is that Red Hat has been the leading Linux distribution provider. So they have a lot of experience. AWS has been the leading cloud provider. So we have both our own point of views, our own learning from our respective set of customers. So the way we try to simplify and bring these things together is working closely. In fact, I sometimes joke internally that if you see Ghana and my team talking to each other on a call, you cannot really tell who who belongs to which team. Because we're always figuring out, okay, how do we simplify discount experience? How do we simplify programs? How do we simplify go to market? How do we simplify the product pieces? So it's really bringing our, our learning and share our perspective to the table and then really figure out how do we actually help customers make progress. Rosa that we talked about is a great example of that, you know, you know, we, together we figured out, hey, there is a need for customers to have this capability in AWS and we went out and built it. So those are just some of the examples in how both teams are working together to simplify the experience, make it complete, make it more coherent. >>Great. That's awesome. That next question is really around how you help organizations with the sustainability piece, how to support them, simplifying it. But first, before we get into that, what is the core problem around this sustainability discussion we're talking about here, supply chain sustainability, What is the core challenge? Can you both share your thoughts on what that problem is and what the solution looks like and then we can get into advice? >>Yeah. Well from my point of view, it's, I think, you know, one of the lessons of the last three years is every organization is kind of taking a careful look at how resilient it is. Or ever I should say, every organization learned exactly how resilient it was, right? And that comes from both the, the physical challenges and the logistics challenges that everyone had. The talent challenges you mentioned earlier. And of course the, the software challenges, you know, as everyone kind of embarks on this, this digital transformation journey that, that we've all been talking about. And I think, so I really frame it as, as resilience, right? And and resilience is at bottom is really about ensuring that you have options and that you have choices. The more choices you have, the more options you have, the more resilient you, you and your organization is going to be. And so I know that that's how, that's how I approach the market. I'm pretty sure that's exact, that's how AON is, has approaching the market, is ensuring that we are providing as many options as possible to customers so that they can assemble the right, assemble the right pieces to create a, a solution that works for their particular set of challenges or their unique set of challenges and and unique context. Aon, is that, does that sound about right to you? Yeah, >>I think you covered it well. I, I can speak to another aspect of sustainability, which is becoming increasingly top of mind for our customer is like how do they build products and services and solutions and whether it's supply chain or anything else which is sustainable, which is for the long term good of the, the planet. And I think that is where we have been also being very intentional and focused in how we design our data center. How we actually build our cooling system so that we, those are energy efficient. You know, we, we are on track to power all our operations with renewable energy by 2025, which is five years ahead of our initial commitment. And perhaps the most obvious example of all of this is our work with arm processors Graviton three, where, you know, we are building our own chip to make sure that we are designing energy efficiency into the process. And you know, we, there's the arm graviton, three arm processor chips, there are about 60% more energy efficient compared to some of the CD six comparable. So all those things that are also we are working on in making sure that whatever our customers build on our platform is long term sustainable. So that's another dimension of how we are working that into our >>Platform. That's awesome. This is a great conversation. You know, the supply chain is on both sides, physical and software. You're starting to see them come together in great conversations and certainly moving workloads to the cloud running in more efficiently will help on the sustainability side, in my opinion. Of course, you guys talked about that and we've covered it, but now you start getting into how to refactor, and this is a big conversation we've been having lately, is as you not just lift and ship but re-platform and refactor, customers are seeing great advantages on this. So I have to ask you guys, how are you helping customers and organizations support sustainability and, and simplify the complex environment that has a lot of potential integrations? Obviously API's help of course, but that's the kind of baseline, what's the, what's the advice that you give customers? Cause you know, it can look complex and it becomes complex, but there's an answer here. What's your thoughts? >>Yeah, I think so. Whenever, when, when I get questions like this from from customers, the, the first thing I guide them to is, we talked earlier about this notion of consistency and how important that is. It's one thing, it it, it is one way to solve the problem is to create an entirely new operational model, an entirely new acquisition model and an entirely new stack of technologies in order to be more sustainable. That is probably not in the cards for most folks. What they want to do is have their existing estate and they're trying to introduce sustainability into the work that they are already doing. They don't need to build another silo in order to create sustainability, right? And so there have to be, there has to be some common threads, there has to be some common platforms across the existing estate and your more sustainable estate, right? >>And, and so things like Red Hat enterprise Linux, which can provide this kind of common, not just a technical substrate, but a common operational substrate on which you can build these solutions if you have a common platform on which you are building solutions, whether it's RHEL or whether it's OpenShift or any of our other platforms that creates options for you underneath. So that in some cases maybe you need to run things on premise, some things you need to run in the cloud, but you don't have to profoundly change how you work when you're moving from one place to another. >>And that, what's your thoughts on, on the simplification? >>Yeah, I mean think that when you talk about replatforming and refactoring, it is a daunting undertaking, you know, in today's, in the, especially in today's fast paced work. So, but the good news is you don't have to do it by yourself. Customers don't have to do it on their own. You know, together AWS and Red Hat, we have our rich partner ecosystem, you know AWS over AWS has over a hundred thousand partners that can help you take that journey, the transformation journey. And within AWS and working with our partners like Red Hat, we make sure that we have all in, in my mind there are really three big pillars that you have to have to make sure that customers can successfully re-platform refactor their applications to the modern cloud architecture. You need to have the rich set of services and tools that meet their different scenarios, different use cases. Because no one size fits all. You have to have the right programs because sometimes customers need those incentives, they need those, you know, that help in the first step and last but no needs, they need training. So all of that, we try to cover that as we work with our customers, work with our partners and that is where, you know, together we try to help customers take that step, which is, which is a challenging step to take. >>Yeah. You know, it's great to talk to you guys, both leaders in your field. Obviously Red hats, well story history. I remember the days back when I was provisioning, loading OSS on hardware with, with CDs, if you remember, that was days gunner. But now with high level services, if you look at this year's reinvent, and this is like kind of my final question for the segment is then we'll get your reaction to is last year we talked about higher level services. I sat down with Adam Celski, we talked about that. If you look at what's happened this year, you're starting to see people talk about their environment as their cloud. So Amazon has the gift of the CapEx, the all that, all that investment and people can operate on top of it. They're calling that environment their cloud. Okay, For the first time we're seeing this new dynamic where it's like they have a cloud, but they're Amazon's the CapEx, they're operating. So you're starting to see the operational visibility gun around how to operate this environment. And it's not hybrid this, that it's just, it's cloud. This is kind of an inflection point. Do you guys agree with that or, or having a reaction to that statement? Because I, I think this is kind of the next gen super cloud-like capability. It's, it's, we're going, we're building the cloud. It's now an environment. It's not talking about private cloud, this cloud, it's, it's all cloud. What's your reaction? >>Yeah, I think, well I think it's a very natural, I mean we used words like hybrid cloud, multi-cloud, if, I guess super cloud is what the kids are saying now, right? It's, it's all, it's all describing the same phenomena, right? Which is, which is being able to take advantage of lots of different infrastructure options, but still having something that creates some commonality among them so that you can, so that you can manage them effectively, right? So that you can have kind of uniform compliance across your estate so that you can have kind of, you can make the best use of your talent across the estate. I mean this is a, this is, it's a very natural thing. >>They're calling it cloud, the estate is the cloud. >>Yeah. So yeah, so, so fine if it, if it means that we no longer have to argue about what's multi-cloud and what's hybrid cloud, I think that's great. Let's just call it cloud. >>And what's your reaction, cuz this is kind of the next gen benefits of, of higher level services combined with amazing, you know, compute and, and resource at the infrastructure level. What's your, what's your view on that? >>Yeah, I think the construct of a unified environment makes sense for customers who have all these use cases which require, like for instance, if you are doing some edge computing and you're running it WS outpost or you know, wave lent and these things. So, and, and it is, it is fear for customer to say, think that hey, this is one environment, same set of tooling that they wanna build that works across all their different environments. That is why we work with partners like Red Hat so that customers who are running Red Hat Enterprise Linux on premises and who are running in AWS get the same level of support, get the same level of security features, all of that. So from that sense, it actually makes sense for us to build these capabilities in a way that customers don't have to worry about, Okay, now I'm actually in the AWS data center versus I'm running outpost on premises. It is all one. They, they just use the same set of cli command line APIs and all of that. So in that sense, it's actually helps customers have that unification so that that consistency of experience helps their workforce and be more productive versus figuring out, okay, what do I do, which tool I use? Where >>And on you just nailed it. This is about supply chain sustainability, moving the workloads into a cloud environment. You mentioned wavelength, this conversation's gonna continue. We haven't even talked about the edge yet. This is something that's gonna be all about operating these workloads at scale and all the, with the cloud services. So thanks for sharing that and we'll pick up that edge piece later. But for reinvent right now, this is really the key conversation. How to bake the sustained supply chain work in a complex environment, making it simpler. And so thanks for sharing your insights here on the cube. >>Thanks. Thanks for having >>Us. Okay, this is the cube's coverage of ados Reinvent 22. I'm John Fur, your host. Thanks for watching.