>>from around the globe. It's >>the cube >>with coverage of >>Kublai khan and >>Cloud Native Con, Europe 2021 virtual brought >>to you by red hat, >>the cloud Native >>Computing foundation and ecosystem partners. Hello, welcome back to the cubes coverage of Kublai khan. Cloud Native Con 2021 part of the CNC. S continuing cube partnership virtual here because we're not in person soon, we'll be out of the pandemic and hopefully in person for the next event. I'm john for your host of the key. We're here with ricardo. Roach computing engineers sir. In CUBA. I'm not great to see you ricardo. Thanks for remote ng in all the way across the world. Thanks for coming in. >>Hello, Pleasure. Happy to be here. >>I saw your talk with Priyanka on linkedin and all around the web. Great stuff as always, you guys do great work over there at cern. Talk about what's going on with you and the two speaking sessions you have it coop gone pretty exciting news and exciting sessions happening here. So take us through the sessions. >>Yeah. So actually the two sessions are kind of uh showing the two types of things we do with kubernetes. We we are doing we have a lot of uh services moving to kubernetes, but the first one is more on the services we have in the house. So certain is known for having a lot of data and requests, requiring a lot of computing capacity to analyze all this data. But actually we have also very large community and we have a lot of users and people interested in the stuff we do. So the first question will actually show how we've been uh migrating our group of infrastructure into the into communities and in this case actually open shift. And uh the challenge there is to to run a very large amount of uh global websites on coordinators. Uh we run more than 1000 websites and there will be a demonstration on how we do all the management of the website um life cycle, including upgrading and deploying new new websites and an operator that was developed for this purpose. And then more on the other side will give with a colleague also talk about machine learning. Machine learning has been a big topic for us. A lot of our workloads are migrating to accelerators and can benefit a lot from machine learning. So we're giving a talk about a new service that we've deployed on top of Cuban areas where we try to manage to uh lifecycle of machine learning workloads from data preparation all the way to serving the bottles, also exploring the communities features and integrating accelerators and a lot of accelerators. >>So one part of the one session, it's a large scale deployment kubernetes key to there and now the machine learning essentially service for other people to use that. Right? Like take me through the first large scale deployment. What's the key innovation there in your opinion? >>Yeah, I think compared to the infrastructure we had before, is this notion that we can develop an operator that will uh, manage resource, in this case a website. And this is uh, something that is not always obvious when people start with kubernetes, it's not just an orchestra, it's really the ap and the capability of managing a huge amount of resources, including custom resources. So the possibility to develop this operator and then uh, manage the lifecycle of uh, something that was defined in the house and that fits our needs. Uh, There are challenges there because we have a large amount of websites and uh, they can be pretty active. Uh, we also have to some scaling issues on the storage that serves these these websites and we'll give some details uh during the talk as well, >>so kubernetes storage, this is all kind of under the covers, making this easier. Um and the machine learning, it plays nicely in that what if you take us for the machine learning use case, what's going on there, wow, what was the discovery, How did you guys put that together? What's the key elements there? >>Right, so the main challenge there has been um that machine learning is is quite popular but it's quite spread as well, so we have multiple groups focusing on this, but there's no obvious way to centralize not only the resource usage and make it more efficient, but also centralize the knowledge of how these procedures can be done. So what we are trying to do is just offer a service to all our users where we help them with infrastructure so that they don't have to focus on that and they could focus just on their workloads and we do everything from exposing the data systems that we have in the house so that they can do access to the data and data preparation and then doing um some iteration using notebooks and then doing distributed training with potentially large amount of gps and that storage and serving up the models and all of this is uh is managed with the coordinates cluster underneath. Uh We had a lot of knowledge of how to handle kubernetes and uh all the features that everyone likes scalability. The reliability out of scaling is very important for this type of workload. This is, this is key. >>Yeah, it's interesting to see how kubernetes is maturing, um congratulations on the projects. Um they're going to probably continue to scale. Remember this reminds me of when I was uh you know coming into the business in the 98 late eighties early nineties with TCP I. P. And the S. I. Model, you saw the standards evolve and get settled in and then boom innovation everywhere. And that took about a year to digest state and scale up. It's happening much faster now with kubernetes I have to ask you um what's your experience with the question that people are looking to get answered? Which is as kubernetes goes, the next generation of the next step? Um People want to integrate. So how is kubernetes exposing a. P. I. S. To say integration points for tools and other things? Can you share your experience and where this is going, what's happening now and where it goes? Because we know there's no debate. People like the kubernetes aspect of it, but now it's integration is the conversation. Can you share your thoughts on that? >>I can try. Uh So it's uh I would say it's a moving target, but I would say the fact that there's such a rich ecosystem around kubernetes with all the cloud, David projects, uh it's it's uh like a real proof that the popularity of the A. P. I. And this is also something that we after we had the first step of uh deploying and understanding kubernetes, we started seeing the potential that it's not reaching only the infrastructure itself, it's reaching all the layers, all the stack that we support in house and premises. And also it's opening up uh doors to easily scale into external resources as as well. So what we've been trying to tell our users is to rely on these integrations as much as possible. So this means like the application lifecycle being managed with things like Helmand getups, but also like the monitoring being managed with Prometheus and once you're happy with your deployment in house we have ways to scale out to external resources including public clouds. And this is really like see I don't know a proof that all these A. P. I. S are not only popular but incredibly useful because there's such a rich ecosystem around it. >>So talk about the role of data in this obviously machine learning pieces something that everyone is interested in as you get infrastructure as code and devops um and def sec ops as everything's shifting left. I love that, love that narrative day to our priests. All this is all proving mature, mature ization. Um data is critical. Right? So now you get real time information, real time data. The expectations for the apps is to integrate the data. What's your view on how this is progressing from your standpoint because machine learning and you mentioned you know acceleration or being part of another system. Cashing has always done that would say databases. Right. So you've got now is databases get slower, caches are getting faster now they're all the ones so it's all changing. So what's your thoughts on this next level data equation into kubernetes? Because you know stateless is cool but now you've got state issues. >>Yeah so uh yeah we we've always had huge needs for for data we store and I I think we are over half an exhibit of data available on the premises but we we kind of have our own storage systems which are external and that's for for like the physics data, the raw data and one particular charity that we had with our workloads until recently is that we we call them embarrassing parallel in the sense that they don't really need uh very tight connectivity between the different workloads. So if it's people always say tens of thousands of jobs to do some analysis, they're actually quite independent, they will produce a lot more data but we can store them independently. Machine learning is is posing a challenge in the sense that this is a training tends to be a lot more interconnected. Um so it can be a benefit from from um systems that we are not so familiar with. So for us it's it's maybe not so much the cashing layers themselves is really understanding how our infrastructure needs to evolve on premises to support this kind of workloads. We had some smallish uh more high performance computing clusters with things like infinite and for low latency. But this is not the bulk of our workloads. This is not what we are experts on these days. This is the transition we are doing towards uh supporting this machine learning workers >>um just as a reference for the folks watching you mentioned embarrassing parallel and that's a quote that you I read on your certain tech blog. So if you go to tech blog dot web dot search dot ch or just search cern tech blog, you'll see the post there um and good stuff there and in there you go, you lay out a bunch of other things too where you start to see the deployment services and customer resource definitions being part of this, is it going to get to the point where automation is a bigger part of the cluster management setting stuff up quicker. Um As you look at some of the innovations you're doing with machines and Coubertin databases and thousands of other point things that you're working on there, I mean I know you've got a lot going on there, it's in the post but um you know, we don't want to have the problem of it's so hard to stand up and manage and this is what people want to make simpler. How do you how do you answer that when people say say we want to make it easier? >>Yeah. So uh for us it's it's really automate everything and up to now it has been automate the deployment in the kubernetes clusters right now we are looking at automating the kubernetes clusters themselves. So there's some really interesting projects, uh So people are used to using things like terra form to manage the deployment of clusters, but there are some projects like cross playing, for example, that allows us to have the clusters themselves being resources within kubernetes. Uh and this is something we are exploring quite a bit. Uh This allows us to also abstract the kubernetes clusters themselves uh as uh as carbonated resources. So this this idea of having a central cluster that will manage a much larger infrastructure. So this is something that we're exploring the getups part is really key for us to, it's something that eases the transition from from from people that are used already to manage large scale systems but are not necessarily experts on core NATO's. Uh they see that there's an easier past there if they if they can be introduced slowly through through the centralized configuration. >>You know, you mentioned cross plane, I had some on earlier, he's awesome dude, great guy and I was smiling because you know I still have you know flashbacks and trigger episodes from the Hadoop world, you know when it was such so promising that technology but it was just so hard to stand up and managed to be like really an expert to do that. And I think you mentioned cross plane, this comes up to the whole operator notion of operating the clusters, right? So you know, this comes back down to provisioning and managing the infrastructure, which is, you know, we all know is key, right? But when you start getting into multi cloud and multiple environments, that's where it becomes challenging. And I think I like what they're doing is that something that's on your mind to around hybrid and multi cloud? Can you share your thoughts on that whole trajectory? >>Absolutely. So I actually gave an internal seminar just last week describing what we've been playing with in this area and I showed some demo of using cross plane to manage clusters on premises but also manage clusters running on public clouds. A. W. S. Uh google cloud in nature and it's really like the goal there. There are many reasons we we want to explore external resources. We are kind of used to this because we have a lot of sites around the world that collaborate with us, but specifically for public clouds. Uh there are some some motivations there. The first one is this idea that we have periodic load spikes. So we knew we have international conferences, the number of analysis and job requests goes up quite a bit, so we need to be able to like scale on demand for short periods instead of over provisioning this uh in house. The second one is again coming back to machine learning this idea of accelerators. We have a lot of Cpus, we have a lot less gPS uh so it would be nice to go on fish uh for those in the public clouds. And then there's also other accelerators that are quite interesting, like CPUs and I p u s that will definitely play a role and we probably, or maybe we will never have among premises, will only be able to to use them externally. So in that, in that respect, actually coming back to your previous question, this idea of storage then becomes quite important. So what we've been playing with is not only managing this external cluster centrally, but also managing the wall infrastructure from a central place. So this means uh, making all the clusters, whatever they are look very, very much the same, including like the monitoring and the aggregation of the monitoring centrally. And then as we talked about storage, this idea of having local storage that that will be allow us to do really quick software distribution but also access to the data, >>what you guys are doing as we say, cool. And relevant projects. I mean you got the large scale deployments and the machine learning to really kind of accelerate which will drive a lot of adoption in terms of automation. And as that kicks in when you got to get the foundational work done, I see that clearly the right trajectory, you know, reminds me ricardo, um you know, again not do a little history lesson here, but you know, back when network protocols were moving from proprietary S N A for IBM deck net for digital back in the history the old days the os I Open Systems Interconnect Standard stack was evolving and you know when TCP I P came around that really opened up this interoperability, right? And SAM and I were talking about this kind of cross cloud connections or inter clouding as lou lou tucker. And I talked that open stack in 2013 about inter networking or interconnections and it's about integration and interoperability. This is like the next gen conversation that kubernetes is having. So as you get to scale up which is happening very fast as you get machine learning which can handle data and enable modern applications really it's connecting networks and connecting systems together. This is a huge architectural innovation direction. Could you share your reaction to that? >>Yeah. So actually we are starting the easy way, I would say we are starting with the workloads that are loosely coupled that we don't necessarily have to have this uh tighten inter connectivity between the different deployments, I would say that this is this is already giving us a lot because our like the bulk of our workloads are this kind of batch, embarrassing parallel, uh and we are also doing like co location when we have large workloads that made this kind of uh close inter connectivity then we kind of co locate them in the same deployment, same clouds in region. Um I think like what you describe of having cross clouds interconnectivity, this will be like a huge topic. It is already, I would say so we started investigating a lot of service measure options to try to learn what we can gain from it. There is clearly a benefit for managing services but there will be definitely also potential to allow us to kind of more easily scale out across regions. There's we've seen this by using the public cloud. Some things that we found is for example, this idea of infinite, infinite capacity which is kind of sometimes uh it feels kind of like that even at the scale we have for Cpus But when you start using accelerators, Yeah, you start negotiating like maybe use multiple regions because there's not enough capacity in a single region and you start having to talk to the cloud providers to negotiate this. And this makes the deployments more complicated of course. So this, this interconnectivity between regions and clouds will be a big thing. >>And, and again, low hanging fruit is just a kind of existing market but has thrown the vision out there mainly to kind of talk about what what we're seeing which is the world's are distributed computer. And if you have the standards, good things happen. Open systems, open innovating in the open really could make a big difference is going to be the difference between real value for the society of global society or are we going to get into the silo world? So I think the choice is the industry and I think, you know, Cern and C and C. F and Lennox Foundation and all the companies that are investing in open really is a key inflection point for us right now. So congratulations. Thanks for coming on the cube. Yeah, appreciate it. Thank you. Okay, Ricardo, rocha computing engineer cern here in the cube coverage of the CN Cf cube con cloud, native con europe. I'm john for your host of the cube. Thanks for watching.

>>from the Cube Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders around the globe. These are cloud native insights. Hi, I'm stew Minimum and the host of Cloud Native Insights. And the threat that we've been pulling on with Cloud Native is that we needed to be able to take advantage of the innovation and agility that cloud in the ecosystem around it can bring, not just the location. It's It's not just the journey, but how do I take advantage of something today and keep being able to move for Happy to welcome back to the program one of our regulars and someone that I've had lots of discussion about? Cloud Cloud. Native Serverless So Cory Quinn, the Keith Cloud economists at the Duck Bill Group. Corey, always good to see you. Thanks for joining us. >>It is great to see me. And I always love having the opportunity to share my terrible opinions with people who then find themselves tarred by the mere association. And there's certainly no exception to use, too. Thanks for having me back. Although I question your judgment. >>Yeah, you know, what was that? Pandora's box. I open when I was like Hey, Corey, let's try you on video so much. And if people go out, they can look at your feet and you've spent lots of money on equipment. You have a nice looking set up. I guess you missed that one window of opportunity to get your hair cut in San Francisco during the pandemic. But be doesn't may Corey, why don't you give our audience just the update You went from a solo or mentor of the cloud? First you have a partner and a few other people, and you're now you've got economists. >>Yes, it comes down to separating out. What I'm doing with my nonsense from other people's other people's careers might very well be impacted by it considered tweet of mine. When you start having other clouds, economists and realize, okay, this is no longer just me we're talking about here. It forces a few changes. I was told one day that I would not be the chief economist. I smile drug put on a backlog item to order a new business cards because it's not like we're going to a lot of events these days, and from my perspective, things continue mostly a base. The back. To pretend people now means that there's things that my company does that I'm no longer directly involved with, which is a relief, that absolutely, ever. But it's been an interesting right. It's always strange. Is the number one thing that people who start businesses say is that if they knew what they were getting into, they'd never do it again. I'm starting to understand that. >>Yeah, well, Corey, as I mentioned you, and I have had lots of discussions about Cloud about multi Cloud server. Listen, like when you wrote an article talking about multi cloud is a worse practice. One of the things underneath is when I'm using cloud. I should really be able to leverage that cloud. One of the concerns that when you and I did a cube con and cloud native con is does multi cloud become a least common denominator? And a comment that I heard you say was if I'm just using cloud and the very basic services of it, you know, why don't I go to an AWS or an azure which have hundreds of services? Maybe I could just find something that is, you know, less expensive because I'm basically thinking of it as my server somewhere else. Which, of course, cloud is much more than so you do with a lot of very large companies that help them with their bills. What difference there differentiates the companies that get advantage from the cloud versus those that just kind of fit in another location, >>largely the stories that they tell themselves internally and how they wind up adapting to cloud. If the reason I got into my whole feel about why multi cloud is a worst practice is that of you best practices a sensible defaults, I view multi cloud as a ridiculous default. Sure, there are cases where it's important, and so I don't say I'm not suggesting for a second that those people who are deciding to go down that are necessarily making wrong decisions. But when you're building something from scratch with this idea toward taking a single workload and deploying it anywhere in almost every case, it's the wrong decision. Yes, there are going to be some workloads that are better suited. Other places. If we're talking about SAS, including that in the giant wrapper of cloud definition in terms of what was then, sure you would be nuts to wind of running on AWS and then decide you're also going to go with codecommit instead of git Hub. That's not something sensible people to use get up or got sick. But when I am suggesting, is that the idea of building absolutely every piece of infrastructure in a way that avoids any of the differentiated offerings that your primary cloud provider uses is just generally not a great occasionally you need to. But that's not the common case, and people are believing that it is >>well, and I'd like to dig a little deeper. Some of those differentiated services out there there are concerned, but some that said, You know, I think back to the past model. I want to build something. I can have it live ever anywhere. But those differentiated services are something that I should be able to get value out of it. So do you have any examples, or are there certain services that you have his favorites that you've seen customers use? And they say, Wow, it's it's something that is effective. It's something that is affordable, and I can get great value out of this because I didn't have to build it. And all of these hyper scaler have lots of engineers built, building lots of cool things. And I want to take advantage of that innovation. >>Sure, that's most of them. If we're being perfectly honest, there are remarkably few services that have no valid use cases for no customer anywhere. A lot of these solve an awful lot of pain that customers have. Dynamodb is a good example of this Is that one a lot of folks can relate to. It's super fast, charges you for what you use, and that is generally yet or a provision Great. But you don't have to worry about instances. You have to worry about scaling up or scaling down in the traditional sense. And that's great. The problem is, is great. How do I migrate off of this on to something else? Well, that's a good question. And if that is something that you need to at least have a theoretical exodus for, maybe Dynamo DV is the wrong service for you to pick your data store personally. If I have to build for a migration in mind on no sequel basis, I'll pick mongo DB every time, not because it's any easier to move it, but because it's so good at losing data, that'll have remarkably little bit left. Migrate. >>Yeah, Corey, of course. One of the things that you help customers with quite a bit is on the financial side of it. And one of the challenges if I moved from my environment and I move to the public cloud, is how do I take advantage not only of the capability to the cloud but the finances of the cloud. I've talked to many customers that when you modernize your pull things apart, maybe you start leveraging serverless capabilities. And if I tune things properly, I can have a much more affordable solution versus that. I just took my stuff and just shoved it all in the cloud kind of a traditional lift and shift. I might not have good economics. When I get to the cloud. What do you see along those lines? >>I'd say you're absolutely right with that assessment. If you are looking at hitting break even on your cloud migration in anything less than five years, it's probably wrong. The reason to go to Cloud is not to save money. There are edge cases where it makes sense, Sure, but by and large you're going to wind up spending longer in the in between state that you would believe eventually you're going to give up and call it hybrid game over. And at some point, if you stall long enough, you'll find that the cloud talent starts reaching out of your company. At which point that Okay, great. Now we're stuck in this scenario because no one wants to come in and finish the job is harder than we thought we landed. But it becomes this story of not being able to forecast what the economics are going to look like in advanced, largely because people don't understand where their workloads start and stop what the failure modes look like and how that's going to manifest itself in a cloud provider environment. That's why lift and shift is popular. People hate, lift and ship. It's a terrible direction to go in. Yeah, so are all the directions you can go in as far as migrating, short of burning it to the ground for insurance money and starting over, you've gotta have a way to get from where you are, where you're going. Otherwise, migration to be super simple. People with five weeks of experience and a certification consult that problem. It's but how do you take what's existing migrated end without causing massive outages or cost of fronts? It's harder than it looks. >>Well, okay, I remember Corey a few years ago when I talk to customers that were using AWS. Ah, common complaint was we had to dedicate an engineer just to look at the finances of what's happening. One of the early episodes I did of Cloud Native Insights talked to a company that was embracing this term called Been Ops. We have the finance team and the engineering team, not just looking back at the last quarter, but planning understanding what the engineering impacts were going forward so that the developers, while they don't need tohave all the spreadsheets and everything else, they understand what they architect and what the impact will be on the finance side. What are you hearing from your customers out there? What guidance do you give from an organizational standpoint as to how they make sure that their bill doesn't get ridiculous? >>Well, the term fin ops is a bit of a red herring in there because people immediately equate it back to cloud ability before their app. Geo acquisitions where the fin ops foundation vendors are not allowed to join except us, and it became effectively a marketing exercise that was incredibly poorly executed in sort of poisoned the well. Now the finance foundations been handed off to the Cloud Native Beauty Foundation slash Lennox Foundation. Maybe that's going to be rehabilitated, but we'll have to find out. One argument I made for a while was that developers do not need to know what the economic model in the cloud is going to be. As a general rule, I would stand by that. Now someone at your company needs to be able to have those conversations of understanding the ins and outs of various costs models. At some point you hit a point of complexity we're bringing in. Experts solve specific problems because it makes sense. But every developer you have does not need to sit with 3 to 5 days course understanding the economics of the cloud. Most of what they need to know if it's on a business card, it's on an index card or something small that is carplay and consult business and other index ramos. But the point is, is great. Big things cost more than small things. You're not charged for what you use your charger for. What you forget to turn off and being able to predict your usage model in advance is important and save money. Data transfers Weird. There are a bunch of edge cases, little slice it and ribbons, but inbound data transfer is generally free. Outbound, generally Austin arm and a leg and architect accordingly. But by and large for most development product teams, it's built something and see if it works first. We can always come back later and optimize costs as you wind up maturing the product offering. >>Yeah, Cory, it's some of those sharp edges I've love learning about in your newsletter or some of your online activities there, such as you talked about those egress fees. I know you've got a nice diagram that helps explain if you do this, it costs a lot of money. If you do this, it's gonna cost you. It cost you a lot less money. Um, you know, even something like serverless is something that in general looks like. It should be relatively expensive, but if you do something wrong, it could all of a sudden cost you a lot of money. You feel that companies are having a better understanding so that they don't just one month say, Oh my God, the CFO called us up because it was a big mistake or, you know, where are we along that maturation of cloud being a little bit more predictable? >>Unfortunately, no. Where near I'd like us to be it. The story that I think gets missed is that when you're month over, month span is 20% higher. Finance has a bunch of questions, but if they were somehow 20% lower, they have those same questions. They're trying to build out predictive models that align. They're not saying you're spending too much money, although by the time the issues of the game, yeah, it's instead help us understand and predict what's happening now. Server less is a great story around that, because you can tie charges back to individual transactions and that's great. Except find me a company that's doing that where the resulting bill isn't hilariously inconsequential. A cloud guru Before they bought Lennox, I can't get on stage and talk about this. It serverless kind of every year, but how? They're spending $600 a month in Lambda, and they have now well, over 100 employees. Yeah, no one cares about that money. You can trace the flow of capital all you want, but it grounds up to No one cares at some point that changes. But there's usually going to be far bigger fish to front with their case, I would imagine, given, you know, stream video, they're probably gonna have some data transfer questions that come into play long before we talk about their compute. >>Yeah, um, what else? Cory, when you look at the innovation in the cloud, are there things that common patterns that you see that customers are missing? Some of the opportunities there? How does the customers that you talk to, you know, other than reading your newsletter, talking Teoh their systems integrator or partner? How are they doing it? Keeping up with just the massive amount of change that happens out >>there. Get customers. AWS employees follow the newsletter specifically to figure out what's going on. We've long since passed a Rubicon where I can talk incredibly convincingly about services that don't really exist. And Amazon employees won't call me out on the joke that I've worked in there because what the world could ever say that and then single. It's well beyond any one person's ability to keep it all in their head. So what? We're increasingly seeing even one provider, let alone the rest. Their events are outpacing them and no one is keeping up. And now there's the persistent, never growing worry that there's something that just came out that could absolutely change your business for the better. And you'll never know about it because you're too busy trying to keep up with all the other number. Every release the cloud provider does is important to someone but none of its important everyone. >>Yeah, Corey, that's such a good point. When you've been using tools where you understand a certain way of doing things, how do you know that there's not a much better way of doing it? So, yeah, I guess the question is, you know, there's so much out there. How do people make sure that they're not getting left behind or, you know, keep their their their understanding of what might be able to be used >>the right answer. There, frankly, is to pick a direction and go in it. You can wind up in analysis paralysis issues very easily. And if you talk about what you've done on the Internet, the number one responsible to get immediately is someone suggesting an alternate approach you could have taken on day one. There is no one path forward for any six, and you can second guess yourself that the problem is that you have to pick a direction and go in it. Make sure it makes sense. Make sure the lines talk to people who know what's going on in the space and validate it out. But you're going to come up with a plan right head in that direction, I assure you, you are probably not the only person doing it unless you're using. Route 53 is a database. >>You know, it's an interesting thing. Corey used to be said that the best time to start a project was a year ago. But you can't turn back time, so you should start it now. I've been saying for the last few years the best time to start something would be a year from now, so you can take advantage of the latest things, but you can't wait a year, so you need to start now. So how how do you make sure you maintain flexibility but can keep moving projects moving forward? E think you touched on that with some of the analysis paralysis, Anything else as to just how do you make sure you're actually making the right bets and not going down? Some, you know, odd tangent that ends up being a debt. >>In my experience, the biggest problem people have with getting there is that they don't stop first to figure out alright a year from now. If this project has succeeded or failed, how will we know they wind up building these things and keeping them in place forever, despite the fact that cost more money to run than they bring in? In many cases, it's figure out what success looks like. Figure out what failure looks like. And if it isn't working, cut it. Otherwise, you're gonna wind up, went into this thing that you've got to support in perpetuity. One example of that one extreme is AWS. They famously never turn anything off. Google on the other spectrum turns things off as a core competence. Most folks wind up somewhere in the middle, but understand that right now between what? The day I start building this today and the time that this one's of working down the road. Well, great. There's a lot that needs to happen to make sure this is a viable business, and none of that is going to come down to, you know, build it on top of kubernetes. It's going to come down. Is its solving a problem for your customers? Are people they're people in to pay for the enhancement. Anytime you say yes to that project, you're saying no to a bunch of others. Opportunity Cost is a huge thing. >>Yeah, so it's such an important point, Cory. It's so fundamental when you look at what what cloud should enable is, I should be able to try more things. I should be able to fail fast on, and I shouldn't have to think about, you know, some cost nearly as much as I would in the past. We want to give you the final word as you look out in the cloud. Any you know, practices, guidelines, you can give practitioners out there as to make sure that they are taking advantage of the innovation that's available out there on being able to move their company just a little bit faster. >>Sure, by and large, for the practitioners out there, if you're rolling something out that you do not understand, that's usually a red flag. That's been my problem, to be blunt with kubernetes or an awful lot of the use cases that people effectively shove it into. What are you doing? What if the business problem you're trying to solve and you understand all of its different ways that it can fail in the ways that will help you succeed? In many cases, it is stupendous overkill for the scale of problem most people are throwing. It is not a multi cloud answer. It is not the way that everyone is going to be doing it or they'll make fun of you under resume. Remember, you just assume your own ego. In this sense, you need to deliver an outcome. You don't need to improve your own resume at the expense of your employer's business. One would hope, >>Well, Cory, always a pleasure catching up with you. Thanks so much for joining me on the cloud. Native insights. Thank you. Alright. Be sure to check out silicon angle dot com if you click on the cloud. There's a whole second for cloud Native insights on your host to minimum. And I look forward to hearing more from you and your cloud Native insights Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

>>Yeah, >>from the Cube Studios in Palo Alto and Boston. It's the Cube covering IBM. Think brought to you by IBM. >>Welcome back, everybody. This is Dave Vellante of the Cube, and you're watching our continuous coverage of the IBM think Digital 2020 experience. And we're really pleased to have Rob High here. He's not only an IBM fellow bodies. He runs the vice president CTO of the IBM Edge Computing Initiative. Rob, thanks so much for coming on the Cube. Good to see you. Which we're face to face, but yeah, that time to be safe and healthy, I guess. And did so edge obviously hot topic. Everybody has this sort of point of view would be interested in how IBM looks at edge. You define it and what your thoughts are on. It's evolution. >>Yeah, well, you know, there's ah really kind of two fairly distinct ways of thinking about the edge of the telcos. Our, ah, you know, they're creating edge capabilities in their own network facilities. We call that the network edge on the other side of the edge they that I think matters a lot to our enterprise businesses is there's remote on premise locations where they actually perform the work that they do, where the majority of people are, where the data that actually gets created is first formed and where the actions that they need to operate on are being taken. That is a lot of interest, because if we can move work workloads, Iot workloads to where that data is being created, where those actions are being taken Uh, not only can we dramatically reduce the late and see to those decisions, uh, but we can also ensure continuous operations and the failed in the presence of perhaps network failures. We can manage the growth of increasing demand for network bandwidth as Maura born data gets created and we can optimize the efficiency of both the business operations as well as the I t operations before that. So for us edge computing at the end of the day is about movie work where the data and the actions are being taken >>well, so this work from home, you know, gives a result of this pandemic is kind of creating a new stresses on networks and people are putting, you know, pouring money actually into beefing up that infrastructure is sort of an extension of what we used to think about edge. But I wonder if you could talk about some of the industries and the use cases that you guys we are seeing and notwithstanding, though assay that >>work from home pivot. Yeah, absolutely. So I mean, look, we have seen ah, the need for placing workloads close to where it is being created and where actions have been picking in virtually every industry, the ones that are probably easier for us to think about and more common in terms of our mindset. Our is manufacturing. If you think about all the things that go on in a factory floor that need to be able to perform analytic in, uh, in the equipment and the processes that are performing in the affection for, If you think, for example, production quality. Uh, you know, if you've got a machine that's putting out parts and maybe it's welding seams on metal boxes, uh, you know, you want to be able to look at the quality of that seem at the moment that is being performed, so that if there are any problems, you can remediate that immediately rather than having that box move on down the line and find that you know the quality issues they were created earlier on now have exacerbated in other ways. Um, you know, so quality, productive quality. Ah, inspection production optimization in our world of Covic Cover 19 and worker safety and getting workers back to work and ensuring that you know people wearing the masks and are exercising social distancing. This is on the factory floor. Worker Insight is another major use case that we're seeing surface of lake with a lot of interest in using whether that's infrared cameras or Bluetooth beacons or infrared cameras. Any variety of devices that could be employed in the work area to help ensure that factories are operating efficiently, that workers are safe. Ah, and whether that's in a factor situation or even in an office situation or e a r in a warehouse or distribution center. And all these scenarios the the utility, the edge computing to bring to those use cases is tremendous. >>And a lot of these devices are unattended or infrequently attended. I always use the windmill example. Um, you know, you don't want to have to do a truck roll to figure out you know what the dynamics are going on, that at the windmill s, so I can instrument that. But what about the management of those devices you know from an autonomous standpoint? And and are you? What are you doing? Or are you doing anything in the autonomous managed space? >>Yeah. In fact, that's really kind of key here, because when you think about the scale, the diversity and the dynamic dynamism of equipment in these environments And as you point out, Dave, you know the lack of I t resource lack of skills on the factory floor, or even in the retail store or hotel or distribution center or any of these environments. The situation is very similar. You can't simply manage getting the right workloads to the right place at the right time. In sort of the traditional approach is, you have to really think about another autonomous approach to management and, you know, let the system the side for you. What software needs to be placed out there? Which software to put their If it's an analytic algorithm, what models to be associated with that software and getting to the right place at the right place at the right Time is a key Part of what we do in this thing that we call IBM Edge application manager is that product that we're really kind of bringing to market right now in the context of edge computing that facilitates this idea of autonomous management. >>You know, I wonder if you could comment Robb on just sort of the approach that you're taking with regard to providing products and services. I mean, we've seen a lot of, uh, situations where people are just essentially packing, packaging traditional, you know, compute and storage devices and sort of throwing it over the fence at the edge. Uh, and saying, Hey, here's our edge computing solution and another saying there's not a place for that. Maybe that will help flatten the network and, you know, provide Ah, gateway for storing on maybe processing information. But it seems to us that that that a bottoms up approach is going to be more appropriate. In other words, you've got engineers, you know who really understand operations, technology, people, maybe a new breed of developers emerging. How do you see the evolution you know of products and services and architectures at >>the edge? Yeah, so First of all, let me say IBM is taking a really pretty broad approach to edge computing we have. What I just described is IBM Edge Application Manager, which is the if you will the platform or the infrastructure on which we can manage the appointment of workloads out to the edge. But then add to that we do have a whole variety of edge and Nevil enabled applications that are being created are global service of practices and our AI applications business all are creating, um, variations of their product specific to address and exploit edge computing and to bring that advantage to the business. And of course, then we also have global services Consulting, which is a set of skilled resource, is who know we understand the transformations that business need to go through when they went, take advantage of edge computing and how to think about that in the context of both their journey to the cloud as well as now in this case, the edge. But also then how to go about implementing and delivering that, uh and then firmly further managing that now you know, coupled out then with at the end of the day you're also going to need the equipment, the devices, whether that is an intelligent automobile or other vehicle, whether that is an appellate, a robot or a camera, Um, or if those things are not intelligent. But you want to bring intelligence to them that how you augment that with servers and other forms of cluster computing that resides resident with the device. All of those are going to require participation from a very broad ecosystem. So we've been working with partners of whether that is vendors who create hardware and enabling that hardware in certifying that hardware to work with our management infrastructure or whether those are people who bring higher order services to the table that provide support for, let's, say, data cashing and facilitating the creation of applications, or whether those are device manufacturers that are embedding compute in their device equipment. All of that is part of our partnership ecosystem, Um, and then finally, you know, I need to emphasize that, you know, the world that we operate in is so vast and so large. There are so many edge devices in the marketplace, and that's growing so rapidly, and so many participants in that likewise There are a lot of other contributors to this ecosystem that we call edge computing. And so for all of those reasons, we have grounded IBM education manager on open source. We created an open source project called Open Rise, and we've been developing that, actually now, for about 4.5 years just recently, the Linux Foundation has adopted Stage one adoption of Open arising as part of its Lennox Foundation edge LF edge, uh, Reg X Foundry project. And so we think this is key to building out, Um, a ecosystem of partners who want to both contribute as well consumed value and create ecosystems around this common idea of how we manage the edge. >>Yeah, I'm glad you brought up the ecosystem, and it's too big for any one company toe to go it alone. But I want to tap your brain on just sort of architectures. And there's so many diverse use cases, you know, we don't necessarily see one uber architecture emerging, but there are some characteristics that we think are important at the edge you mentioned sort of real time or near real time. In many cases, it has to be real time you think about autonomous vehicles? Um, yeah. A lot of the data today is analog, and maybe it doesn't have to be digitized, but much of it will be, um, it's not all gonna be sent back to the cloud. It may not all have to be persisted. So we've envisioned this sort of purpose built, you know, architecture for certain use cases that can support real time. That maybe have, you know, arm based processors. Ah, or other alternative processors there that can do real time analytics at the edge and maybe sending portions of the data back. How do you see the architectures evolving from a technologist? >>Well, so certainly one of the things that we see at the edge is a tremendous premium being placed on things like energy consumption. So architectures they're able to operate efficiently with less power is ah is certainly an advantage to any of those architectures that are being brought aboard. Um, clearly, you know x 86 is a dominant architecture in any information technology endeavor. More specifically at the edge. We're seeing the emergence of lot of arm based architecture chips out there. In fact, I would guess that the majority of the edge devices today are not being created with, um, arm architectures, but it's the you know, but some of this is about the underlying architecture of the compute. But also then the augmentation of that compute the the compute Thea the CP use with other types of processing units. Whether those GPS, of course, we're seeing, you know, a number of deep use being created that are designed to be low power consuming, um, and have a tremendous amount of utility at the edge. There are alternate processing units, architectures that have been designed specifically for AI model based analytics. Uh, things like TP use and infuse and and, uh, and set around, which are very purpose built for certain kinds of intellect. And we think that those are starting to surface and become increasingly important. And then on the flip side of this is both the memory storage in network architectures which are sort of exotically different. But at least in terms of capacity, um have quite variability. Specifically, five G, though, is emerging and five g. While it's not necessarily the same computing, there is a lot of symbolism between edge and five G and the kinds of use cases that five G envisions are very similar to those that we've been talking about in the edge world as well. >>Rob, I want to ask you about sort of this notion of program ability at the edge. I mean, we've seen the success of infrastructure as code. Um, how do you see program ability occurring at the edge in terms of fostering innovation and maybe new developer bottles or maybe existing developer models at the edge? Yeah, >>we found a lot of utility in sort of leveraging what we now think of as cloud computing or cloud computing models. Uh, you know, the idea of continue ization extends itself very easily into the edge. Whether that is running a container in a docker runtime, let's say on an edge device which is, you know, resource constrained and purpose built and needs to focus on sort of a very small footprint or even edge clusters edge servers where we might be running a cluster of containers using our kubernetes platform called open shift. Um, you know the course of practices of continuous integration, continuous delivery. What we write a Otherwise think of his Dev ops. Ah, and, of course, the benefits they continue. Realization brings to the idea of component architectures. Three. Idea of loose coupling. The separation of concerns, the ability to mix and match different service implementations to be opposed. Your application are all ideas that were matured in the cloud world but have a lot of utility in the edge world. Now we actually call it edge native programming. But you can think of that as being mostly cloud native programming, with a further extension that there are certain things you have to be aware of what you're building for the edge. You have to recognize that resource is air limited. Unlike the cloud where we have this notion of infinite resource, you don't have that at the edge. Find and constrained resources. Be worried about, you know, Layton sees and the fact that there is a network that separates the different services and that network can be and reliable. It can introduce his own forms of Layton sees it, maybe bandwidth constrained and those air issues that you now have to factor into your thinking as you build out the logic of your application components. But I think by building on the cloud native programming about me paradigm. You know, we get to exercise sort of all of the skills that have been developing and maturing in the cloud world. Now, for the edge >>that makes sense. My last question is around security. I mean, I've often sort of tongue in cheek said, you know, building a moat around the castle doesn't work anymore. The queen i e. The data has left the castle. She's everywhere. So what about the security model? I mean, I feel like the edge is moving so fast you feel confident or what gives you confidence >>that we can secure the edge. You know, the edges does introduce some very interesting and challenging concerns with respect to security because, frankly, the compute is out there in the wild. You know, you've got computers in the store you've got, you know, people walking around the kiosks you have in the manufacturing site, you know, workers that are, you know, in the midst of all of this compute capability and so the attack surface is substantially bigger. And that's been a big focus for us, is how to the only way validate in 30 of the software that was But it also takes advantage of one of the key characters with edge computing to bring to the table, which is, if you think about it. You know, when you've got personal and private information being entered into quote system, the more often you move that personal private data around, and certainly the more that you move it to a central location and aggregate that with other data, the more of a target becomes more vulnerable, exposed that data becomes and by using edge computing, which moves the workloads out to the edge where that did has been created in some sense, you can process on it there and then move it back. They need central location, you don't have to aggregate it. And that actually in itself is a counterbalance of all of the other issues that we also describe about security by essentially not moving the personal privacy and in protecting by keeping it exactly where it began. >>You know, Rob, this is an exciting topic. Is a huge opportunity for IBM and Ginny in and talk about the trillion dollar opportunity and hybrid cloud and the Edge is a multi $1,000,000,000 opportunity for IBM and, uh So you just got to go get her done. But I really appreciate you coming on the Cube and sharing your insights. That awesome topic in the best interest of the David. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for the thank you. Stay safe and thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Volante for the Cube. This is our coverage of IBM. Think 2020 the digital. Think >>we'll be right back after this short break? >>Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

>>Hi and welcome back to Red Hat. Summit 2020. This is the Cube, and I'm your host. Stew minimum. We're talking so many topics. This event happening globally. We're treating our partners in the red hat executives where they are around the globe. And I guess right now is Nick Carr said, Who's the senior director of technology strategy with Red Hat, And Nic is coming to us. He's early in the Bahamas, speaking to us from his boat, though. Nick, pleasure to see you. And thanks so much for joining us. >>Very nice to meet you. Yeah, remote employees. And I enjoy that a lot. >>Absolutely. So we've been talking your team a lot. Of course. You know, many employees of Red Hat already were remote, but everyone now is working where they are. You're gonna be about a topic, of course, which is even more about riveted solutions. And where things are, we're going to talk about edge and five G before we get into the topic. It's a little bit about your background, how long you've been with red hat. And you know what? Your what your role is. >>So I joined right as a little more than five years ago after the acquisition. Off of all the companies that was working on open stack. Interesting technology. I've been in open source for the past 20 more years. Um, I was, uh, working miss of many distributions of Lennox over the years, so I consider myself in open source veteran. >>Excellent. I I remember that acquisition. We had the Cube at the open stack summit for many years on that, um, you know, new the company before the acquisition >>of the >>brand. And frankly, >>though, let's talk about it. First of all, you know, you talk about edge. Edge means different things to a >>lot of people >>are talking about it >>from a >>career perspective. You know, every customer in the Iot piece. Where does Red Hat into the whole notion of edge on? You know what kind of pieces of the portfolio? Yeah. >>So obviously, edge is about building an infrastructure that goes as far as possible to be as close as possible to where people are either producing or consuming data and building infrastructure as always, being the very heart off what Red Hat has been doing. And we've been growing. That's infrastructure capability. over time. So that means that today we feel the need to fulfill the requirements of those customers that want to extend their infrastructure to there. Because when we say the edge, we have to be countries that we're talking about. Like the layers of an onion more You dig into it. The more layers you find, the more particle case you have. There's no way there is a single. >>Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. So, you know, back in the open stack days, we talked a lot about in it, though Some of the barriers I know I've spoken to prizes. Who's, You know, we are of red Hat, though, you know, Maybe start there and help us understand. You know, where are we with the solution? Uh, talk about how five g fits into it. Of course. Everybody's talking about five feet. Well, that will take time, but help us understand where we are today. >>So, um, obviously for us, the edge years, just an extension of our open ivory clouds. Right? We have always been very vocal in saying that you need to be able to deploy the same workload in any place, and the edges are Justin extensions off these anyplace. So the same strategy that we've been developing first we use open stack, uh then with open shift and making open shift are both our development and our deployment platform for all types of workloads having open shift now, this report normally container based workloads, but also the visualization based workloads are exactly what we are doing at the edge. We want people to be able to deploy a single type of platform on various types of fruit brands managers globally. Ah is complete consistency so that there is no extra cost in maintaining those thousands, sometimes millions off added location into their existing infrastructure off course. In order to do that, we need to develop new tools to do the management to develop new AI or machine learning technology, to help people process not only the data coming from the platform, but also the management of the platform itself. We are reaching such scales that we wouldn't be able to do it. We've out. You are no from the platform yourself. >>Yeah, absolutely. And of course, scale is a relative before rise in. Yeah, I've talked to a couple of times. My understanding you've got news related. This that horizon went off? >>Yeah. This week Horizon has bean announcing ah, reinforce partnership between our two companies to help them heal their edge Platform. Ah, here we are talking about the first step in their edge platform which years? What we call the extension off the board we are talking about developing small data centers are going to be closer to the certainly. Um, And here we are talking about scales that, um can comprise to hundreds of data center, each having to 20 machines or more, um, to do all the processing of their future five g network and further, um, five g years, one off the enabler off edge. But it's also the reason for telcos to start deploying their edge network because the have a requirement to boot treatments off the information closer to where the five g antennas. And this is what we are developing. >>Alright. So, Nick, we talked. You've talked a minute ago about open stack and open fifth, help our audience understand a little bit. We've already talked a lot of customers. You don't. You can have one without the other, or you can layer off of the open stack when it comes to the the solution that you're talking about Verizon or ah, you know, other other service providers out there is it? Is it one is in both eyes that I've been there, Help us understand. >>So currently we have a complete shorts. We can do an edge platform. So Levi's open stack. You've got multiple customer doing that around the world. We can build an edge platform. We is open shift on top of the stack. But if we look at a future as we are, you know, designing it, we are looking at enabling simplicity and simplicity. Means deploying a single seeing open shift on to bare metal and have these bare metal platform deal we both vm and container so that you only have one AP I. You only have one management. You only have one thing to worry about. And since open shift and bark the OS, um, there is extreme simplicity in the methodology for updating or upgrading, and I think this is going to be a key point, making things simple, reducing the number of layers in your set. >>All right, that that really intrigued Nick, help us understand a little bit this ICO, Obviously any red hat doing is open source. It's how you're for that, you know, Red hat does. But you know how you're involved in the industry to help make the word that as edge solutions roll out that customers have flexibility in the first place. >>So you have multiple tee off partnership in this industry, you've got the partnership that are built around community and we are participating in numerous community, like the Lennox Foundation. Edge on many, many more. And this is where we are building the fundamental block off our future solutions we have. Partnership also is multiple vendor. Every time you're dealing with is a specific vertical. You will have a certain number of vendors that are going to be the one enabling 80% of the applications are going to be deployed, and that's okay for the edge. And then you have the partnership we made. We see our customers because the best source off requirements are always our customers. And that's something that we've now made a strong principle, which is to always find early adopters with when we are going to build a solution in a vertical sector on the horizon is one of them has been one of them. For what, a few years now and then replicate this success on to other customers of same sex. And we are reproducing this in the industry and manufacturing sector and in many other virtual. >>Excellent. Uh, you talked earlier about the open hybrid cloud. Obviously talk about they right, Wild help us understand, Nick. You know, edge and cloud. How do they actually go together? Many people. First of all, the people living article that was, you know, edge kills the cloud we've been talking about for a while. We know everything in i t is always additive. But how should customers on the surface but really be thinking about how edge cloud fit together >>in our design? The cloud and the edge is the same thing. You address the edge, you address the cloud, you should address your on premise art where the same way you use the same guy. And this driving FBI ease of communities, FBI, which we deliver through open ship. Um, soon. What is the difference? The difference is going to be who owns the edge, or we also machine running in your cloud who owns the machine running in your private data center. What network you're using, you're going to have Ah, a lot of constrained are going to be a bit more complex when you aren't yet. For example, you are sometimes going to go through the satellite connection. These huge delays in communication you're sometime going to put machines location that are absolutely not secure. So you need to have security layers. You're ensuring that nobody can remember these machines. These are you know it. But overall, once the deployment has done, we really, really on. People should consider that's their edge piece parts of their cloud or vice versa. >>Yeah, Nick, you brought up a lot of good points there. Security, of course. Critical. A one piece that I want to get your honest about. So we're spending a few years really looking at in a worker's process at the edge. What that's brought back core talk about AI work. Both generally understood praying things out at the edge. That's gonna happen. You know more of the core and then get out of the overall devices. What do you seeing where your customers But that overall, when it comes to their data. And >>from a technical perspective, data is the real real motivation about yet they are generating so much data that we are not able to process it anymore in a central location. So we have to process this data locally where it is generated. Or I suppose it's possible to where it is generated before sending, Let's say, a summary of these data or alerts or whatever the business process that pulls for to the center of operation. The use cases that we are demonstrating in this week, uh, that you can watch through the demo booth or you can watch increases. Ah, known presentation. Use the pays off manufacturer, which is installing sensors on many of the machine producing oh stuff. And when you have the right sensors like the vibration sensor or a temperature sensor, you can very easily develop knowledge off. Oh, this machine is going to break in a short amount of time. Maybe I should start scheduling some preventive maintenance on these machines, and you can do that by just actually leading the data and have humans read it. And you can do that a lot more efficiently. Training a machine learning algorithm This is what we are demonstrating that is processing the data and sending the alerts in real part when issues are discovered. Um, all this off course needs to be down in a very scalable fashion. Here we are talking about a use case where the customer may have 50 factories >>around the world. >>Are you updates all these machine learning models in all the factories when you have an update percent to learn about something you so data and data processing and now the eye. But big data are the heart off all of the use cases we, uh, discovered around old verticals for edge. And this is why we are now almost joining forces between the team working on AI. That's right out producing the open data hub and the team marking teams working on our solution. >>Yeah, I'm really glad you brought up manufacturing as the is one of the verticals. Look at their one of the turns and challenges we saw with all of that is yeah, some of the organization, Specifically, if you look at manufacturing, it could be an ot. Um, I'm curious is you're seeing solutions. Roll out your work, Aziz. How Customers are getting beyond those barriers. You know, some of the traditional silos where there was thoroughly collaborate. >>Well, it's always Ah, problem. Every time you introduce a change, you have to manage this in every project off, deploying something you anywhere well, fail if you do not account for the human factor and edge is no different in that. And when you're talking about the factory, if you're not directly talking with the people on the floor well, regarding their needs, you're only talking is a central guy. And you just arrived one day saying, Oh, everything is going to change. It's going to be a failure that the same way is a failure when the government make a decision without going through a consultative process before implementing it. So, um, nothing new, I would say. But as usual, And maybe because of the scale of edge, yeah, we will need to ensure that our customers are aware of those challenges that lay ahead of us. >>Alright, Well, next sounds Sounds like a lot of good progress. Been made definitely further breakout. What? From summit? You learn more. Thank you so much for joining. >>Thank you for having me >>all right. More coverage from the Cube at Red Hat Summit 2020. I'm screaming a man and as always what? Alright, Nick. Good stuff.

>> Live from Seattle, Washington, it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and Cloud Native Con North America 2018 brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and it's ecosystem partners. >> Hey welcome back everyone, we are live here in Seattle. It's theCUBE's coverage of KubeCon, Cloud Native Con, a part of CNCF, Cloud Native Computing Foundation, the rise of Kubernetes, this is what the show is all about. Three days of wall to wall coverage. We've been there from the beginning covering this KubeCon effort from the beginning. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman, we're here to analyze and break down the event with our guest analyst for the segment, Steve Herrod, CUBE alumni, he was there the first day we ever did theCUBE in 2010. He's been a good friend of theCUBE. Now he's a venture capitalist, managing director at General Catalyst, a premiere VC in the industry. Steve, great to see you. >> Good to be here. >> Thanks for coming on. >> Feels like the early days of some of the other conferences, too, doesn't it? >> It feels like AWS, you know seven/eight years ago where it tips over, there's a tipping point. We see that doubling, so you know, it's kind of that tipping point where there's more demand for theCUBE and we can fill it so there's great content but it's a bigger picture, right? And I want to break through that, I want to get your thoughts and let's have a shared conversation around what's really going on here. You're talking about a disruption in the industry of cloud computing. You got Amazon, just a freight train just taking all the beach, the waves coming in and this is an opportunity, this is my opinion, for the industry to kind of say, hey, it's a multi cloud world so you're not going to take all of it. You got Google, you got Microsoft, you got start ups. This is a way to create an opensource way to fill the gap. Your thoughts? You agree? >> I totally agree and I think what's interesting, this conference does not have a corporate, at least an explicit corporate sponsor. It has four or five that are all trying to have their play in it. Microsoft's not one of them, which is sort of interesting. But it was, I think, a very bold thing this year to have this big of a venue and invite this many people and then hope that you're going to get the sponsorships and all the other stuff that follows. >> In Seattle. >> In Seattle. Yeah, our weather is a little bit-- >> It's very meta. (laughing) >> Interesting. But, just to your point, I do think this is really interesting because it is more open than a lot of these conferences where people are coming together. Both open source but also so much focus on how do you do functions in a way that works across places, how do you service meshes. Like everything is, it's both good and bad because there's so many choices that people are being seen right now. >> You were the CTO of VMware, Stu you worked in the CTO office at EMC back in the day, you're seeing a systems kind of vibe going on in cloud and you got application renaissance, kind of almost like the app server days, think WebSphere or whatever, that movement in the 90's and 2000's, that kind of grew quickly, all kind of being modernized. So you have cloud scale. >> Mm-hmm. >> AI has been around for a long time but because of the cloud, there's a renaissance. Video's been around for a long time but because of the cloud, things like theCUBE is happening. So the cloud is enabling a rebirth of a lot of things. >> Mm-hmm. >> And enabling a lot of new things, how do you guys view that systems view, application renaissance? Jassy talks about a reinvent as a new kind of persona developing. >> Mm-hmm. >> As a buyer and IT investments are changing, you're making start up investments, it's crazy. >> Yep. >> What do you think? >> Yeah, so first of all John, I like what you're saying about that systems view because too often we would kind of focus on a specific tool. So virtualization was great, but, you know, big thing, I took a bunch of servers and made it smaller servers but I took the same old application and I shoved it in there, and I left it running for another five or 10 years when I probably should have modernized it. Today, you know we just had Cheryl on talking about the ecosystem and customers and what I want to focus on is how the users get value. What are building on top of this? >> Right. >> Not the next cool thing to build, but how do I run my business? How do I do cool things with genomics? How do I improve healthcare? And in many ways we're seeing some of these top down things. I mean what's gotten me so excited about things like serverless and been really poking and teasing at how that fits in with this ecosystem is it's not just about a way to kind of turn the crank on making things a little bit more efficient or, you know, I can manage more machines with fewer people, but you know it moves up things and for someone like myself, a networking guy with an infrastructure background? >> Right. >> It's a little out of my comfort zone and that's okay. You know we talked to Lou Tucker, Lou's really excited about where AI's going and what's there, so I think we're in a real renaissance here and it's a big inflection point. >> Well I think to your point, what's interesting, whenever I do a teacher course to a college or when I'm talking to start ups or even in the old days it's really easy to forget that infrastructure is not a thing in it's own right. It's solely there to enable applications and to enable other things and so whenever you get really deep in the weeds on this is a new security model for this type of container or this, it's important and you're thinking about the best way to do it but, really you're right, you have to abstract it out to can I ship value faster? Can I save customers money? Can I do something safer? You really have to think about it in that context. And there's so much activity here you have to really make sure you're thinking about where it all fits together. >> And you know, the computer science conversations changes, too. The nature of what is computer science is evolving. I want to get to that in the next kind of discussion point but I want to just, Steve, ask you, you were on the VMware side when VMware kind of entered in with virtualization. It was a desktop, it was an app, it was like you loaded it on a machine and then that ended up transforming a massive industry and so a lot of people compare what VMware did in it's growth and it's impact but saying the cloud has got certainly more orders of magnitude, you mentioned security. >> Mm-hmm. >> Where's the VMware moment in this cloud transformation impact? Your thoughts there, just because you've been on both sides, one as a driver, CTO at VMware and now as an investor. Where do you see cloud-- >> Yeah, I kind of thought of it as two different angles. One is, appealing to developers and then that taking you all the way through operations which is, I mean that is, dev ops is sort of looking at that. VMware's first product was a workstation product that made developers have a bunch of environments right in front of them and we always had a vision for getting into the operations center but we knew we had to kind of come up through that path and I think likewise, a lot of this tooling that we see here is developer first and it's them saying, "I like this tool "and I can make my job be more enjoyable this way." But what you're really seeing, especially at this one is, how do you start in the developer tools and then not be detested by developers but then actually be paid for it by the operations side. So if you look at the type of vendors that are here? You start having venture capitalists here. You have a few people wearing suits here. It is about making this more enterprisey, more production ready and that's kind of the natural progression of any major impact like this. >> And Heptio, certainly Stu was reporting earlier, the number has been better than the filing of VMware. You know, a half a billion dollar acquisition for talent and a position in the marketplace. There's liquidity so there's investment opportunities. We talked to Jerry Chan about this at AWS, I want to get your thoughts, how is the investment thesis going on because what are you investing in? The notion of a stack, has kind of transformed into Lego blocks and services. >> Yep. >> So the notion of a stack is kind of changing although I've heard people say the, "Kubernetes stack." I'm like, well, what does that mean? (laughing) >> Which one? Yeah. >> So there's a lot of kind of stack derivatives. >> Mm-hmm. >> But how do you invest in this? What are you looking for? Where is the value? >> Yep. >> Where are sniffing out the deals? Where's the white spaces? And where should entrepreneurs go? >> Yeah, and I have several companies presenting here so I've certainly done some investments around this space, but I focus on a few things very specifically. I've been around this a little while. I really like to think about not tools that go to the new, hot new companies. I really try to think about what is more mainstream company going to adopt? And that usually means a few things. It has to have enterprise capabilities. It has to fit into the rest of the things. But I look at like how are you going to digest this with your other tools and the other processes that you have in place? If it's a security solution, I look at, I don't want really something that only protects the brave new world, I want it to fit in somehow with security policies and other things that are happening. >> So mainstream adoption? IT kind of impact? >> Yeah, just like a tool that actually works across environments and lets you go from here to there. You all have talked to Illumio several times? >> Yeah. >> They're trying to do micro segmentation for physical machines all the way through containers. The other thing I'm keeping a close eye on is, this is chaos, in terms of the number of start ups doing very specific point solutions and you have to really think about how does that grow into a big enough chunk of a budget or a big enough problem. So every single time I make an investment, I ask how does this do something 10 times better than something else and is that important to the company? And that's really hard to answer sometimes. >> Steve, and what's your take on the kind of opensource, open core, business model today? To be honest, I go around, I talked to some of the founders there, and everybody wants to contribute to opensource but maybe I don't want to build a business around it, because actually monetizing that is really tough. Is it just, I look to get acquired by one of the big players here? Or can I actually build a business with opensource at it's core? >> That's literally the billion dollar question. >> Yeah. >> But I do think, like on the positive side, the number of exits or big things recently with Magento, with Cloudera doing great, with, obviously, Red Hat, but we've seen, and Neilsoft, like a lot of big acquisitions and some good IPOs. But on the flip side, you definitely have to think about it differently now. There's a growing license that is very careful about allowing clouds to host your opensource project without contributing back. Hopefully that'll allow this hosted model to play out. I personally, I certainly look to opensource. You can see what's going on from traction but when you see it as a great lead generation engine which it often is for folks, I think that's a really healthy way to avoid spending a bunch of marketing money. >> Yeah, it's been fun. A lot of different shows we go to. Love your analysis, thanks for coming on, appreciate it. Just in general, as not a VC, but as a tech person and in the industry, I want to ask you and Stu what wave are we on? Obviously Kubernetes is now kind of front and center but we've still got cloud native. Is it the cloud? You got IoT and Amazon ARM, but we saw a lot of conversations around Edge. They had some interesting announcements around satellite telemetry coming in to regions. So you got Google, you got Microsoft, you got the big players. Is it the rich get richer? Is there going to be a new second tier? Cloud service provider? Where is this going? How is it going to reshape the industry? I mean, just big picture, what's your thoughts? >> Well, this is literally what I get paid to do is figure out where things are headed. I'd say, just at a top level, this is a super fun time to be in this lower level of the stack. You mentioned already AI gets, sort of AI washing goes on a lot right now but the very core of it is literally changing every application in interesting ways. And for me, I was a former hardware designer. The fact that you can now build and have really cool new hardware that's accelerating this stuff is really exciting. You saw Amazon's announcements, not only an ARM based server but Inferentia chips. Google has been doing this with TPUs-- >> Hundred gig networking in there, like, you know, high speed-- >> It is impressive. >> Cluster configurations, it's amazing stuff. >> So I love the fact that we can actually have very big innovation at each stage of the stack and it's because the combination of every company becoming an app, digital company coupled with the power of AI to transform things means you need dev ops to faster, you need these platforms that let you do more self service. And then I sprinkle on top of that is just the ridiculous demand for high quality engineers and if you don't give them an environment where they feel productive, they're just not going to stay at your company. And so all the mix comes together. I don't think they're going to be, there'll be some giant companies that already are, but I think the ability to create a new company that becomes large quickly or becomes small quickly if you screw up is bigger than ever. >> Yeah, I think it's total acceleration. >> Everything's faster. >> Values accelerated but it's also failure, too, right? >> Exactly, everything is accelerated. >> You have an option to abandon in you NPV calculations and IRRS (laughing) in your portfolio. >> Exactly, no it's-- >> The word pivot comes to mind. >> Everything is faster, that's the right way to think about it. >> Stu what's your take on this? >> Yeah, so we're at an interesting point in the industry. It's a bit of a paradox. On the one hand, the challenge of our time, we've been talking on theCUBE since the early days, John, is it's about distributed architectures and we're decomposing all of the pieces. Even Kubernetes itself, we're going to talk about how it's decomposing. On the other hand, everything is consolidating. >> That's right. >> I've seen more vertical stack integration from the chip and hardware level all the way through. You see Apple, Microsoft, Google-- >> That's right. >> And Amazon, all have chips companies and are going really interesting stuff there but it is such a complex individual. >> It is. >> That no one company can do it all, so there is opportunity for people to build on top of that. We have new marketplaces, we have new ways of doing it so it's, yes, there's going to be some really big winners and we have seen changes but there are still opportunities and yeah, John, keeps us busy always. >> Well here's my take on it, I want to get you guys' reaction to my view on this. So obviously we're in the media business, we're disrupting media with theCUBE so we look at the market and it's kind of matched the music industry. The power curve, the power law is very flat and straight and then a very long tail, with the head of the power law is the big players. But then when media came out, it kind of created a fatter tail and a bigger torso. I think that I see in the cloud, I see the rich getting richer. Amazon, Google, Microsoft, Alibaba, and maybe a couple players underneath there, IBM, Oracle, those big guys. And then it's going to be a second tier of cloud service providers. Someone who's going to package all these awesome sets of features in the long tail so you're going to start to see a growth because the big guys cannot be winning all the mid range business. I think, you're right, I think there's going to be a lot of solutions that are just exceptional. >> Mm-hmm. >> And I think the scale of the cloud is going to create an opportunity for new kinds of service providers. Someone who says, hey, you know what? I'm going to package this differently. I'm going to assemble-- >> I think so. >> A cloud solution, on either one of all of the clouds. Why wouldn't I use the accelerated Amazon, or the power of Google? >> I think that's well thought and I do think, we've talked about this for a while too, but I do believe there's going to be specialization by industry where you have certain algorithms and data that's unique to it, by geography. There's still going to be sovereignty issues. Even by just what type of things am I trying to build. So I do think simultaneously there's commonality on the platform but that allows you to do specialization and to really serve a specific industry quite well. >> And machine learning is a great specialty thing. The metadata to power machine learning. >> So Steve, do you have final questions you want to ask us before we run out of time? >> Well I would just say, you see a lot of these conferences. I actually like to show up at these and say, what in point time does this look like the AWS reinvent. For me, what point in time does this look like maybe the VMware event in my case, but I don't know, it just feels to me like we've jumped over, we're sort of at that point where this is going to keep going and growing. >> Yeah, how do we make sure we've hit the inflection point but not jumped the charts? >> Yeah, I mean, do you think we are here? And how does this feel versus some of the other events that you spend time on? >> Yeah, I mean, John you want me to? >> I mean, you know. >> So my take, first of all, is there's a little worry and there's some concern of us that have been through this before, is like, wait, did we just create another OpenStack? >> Yeah. >> And my resounding answer so far, is no. While there might be 35 main projects here each one of those was started for a reason. They stand on their alone, they have, you know we've got Matt Klein on from Lyft, as our next guest here. >> Yeah. >> You know, Envoy, if Kubernetes didn't exist, Envoy would probably still exist. So there's a lot of these pieces that are good but it is complicated. >> It is very complicated. >> And there's all these pieces but that's a real opportunity for a lot of companies. The SIs, the big platforms, to be able to help put this together. >> Yeah. >> And the customers are thrilled with what is going on. >> That's well stated, yeah. >> There's interesting things there. Right, this ecosystem, the only ecosystem I've seen probably grow faster is the Amazon one so it is doing well and we've been looking for years as to like a nice, vendor independent ecosystem. >> Right. >> To grow because, you know, there's some of the ones in the storage industry and things like that. >> Yeah. >> All died. >> That's right. >> So there are vendor shows and this, you know the Lennox Foundation's done a nice job. >> Right, I agree. >> With it and it's been-- >> That's the unique part here for me. >> We bet early on it, so. >> Well we bet early on it, it was a good bet, but here's the challenge that they have; they have lightning in a bottle and it's definitely arrived so there's a little bit of jump to shark moment. You got some things happening that's kind of glam oriented but absolutely it's arrived. I think the challenge that they have is opensource community is a core constituency of this event, and the Lennox Foundation is structured to be kind of a very tight top, thin at the top period of management and the scale of this event and this movement is too big for them, I think, to handle. I think they either have to have sub brand or start segmenting out because if they lose the opensource community, the they're going to lose the vibe of the event and that's the core of what it is. >> Right. >> The downstream benefits, kind of a an opensource parlance, is the IT impact and the developer impact. And inherent in that is business benefits so you're going to start to see more suits coming in and you're going to start to have a melting pot and that is a risky proposition if they don't get out front on that. So yes, it's arrived, but there's so much time they're going to be doing it just to the projects. >> Right. >> Just to the innovation. >> You're going to have to wear these next time that you see them. >> There's a money making aspect of it, yes. >> Right. >> The money making aspect of this is huge. >> Yeah. >> And I think that's what we're watching. >> Yep. >> As the business people come in and say, look at this, this is billions and billions of dollars. >> Yeah. >> This is-- >> Maybe just one more thought on that. The notion is really important, this is a distributed, not really owned by one person, one company, and there's the chaos that comes with that and so how do you do the balance between these two things? >> Yeah, yeah. >> Its like when, I know, when Amazon announced their Blockchain thing, it's like, Blockchain's supposed to be distributed. Now we have a company running it in one cloud. It's like that balance between the push and pull of centralization that we're going to see. >> Well have to put some computer science architecture together and put an operating system around it. >> There ya go. >> We'll have some dev ops. Steve, thanks for coming on theCUBE, great to have you on. >> Good to see you guys. >> Well it's great to see you. A legend in the industry, Steve Herrod, CUBE alumni from 2010, been on every year. Now a venture capitalist, former CTO of VMware. With Stu Miniman, I'm John Furrier, analyst of KubeCon, stay with us for more coverage after this short break. (upbeat techno music)

(upbeat techno music) >> Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE covering VMworld2018 brought to by VMware and it's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE, I am Lisa Martin with Dave Vellante, John Furrier, Stu Miniman at the end of day two of our continuing coverage, guys, of VMworld 2018, huge event, 25+ thousand people here, 100,000+ expected to be engaging with the on demand and the live experiences. Our biggest show, right? 94 interviews over the next three days, two of them down. Let's go, John, to you, some of the takeaways from today from the guests we've had on both sets, what are some of the things that stick out in your mind? Really interesting? >> Well we had Michael Dell on so that's always a great interview, he comes on every year and he's very candid and this year he added a little bit more color commentary. That was great, it was one of my highlights. I thought the keynote that Sanjay Poonen did, he had an amazing guest, Nobel Peace Prize winner, the youngest ever and her story was so inspirational and I think that sets a tone for VMware putting a cultural stake in the ground around tech for good. We've done a lot of AI for good with Intel and there's always been these initiatives but I think there's now a cultural validation that people generally want to work for and buy from companies that are mission driven and mission driven is now part of it and people can be judged on that front so it's good to see VMware get some leadership there and put the stake in the ground. I thought that was the big news today, at least from my standpoint. The rest were like point product announcements. Sanjay Poonen went into great detail on that. Pat Gelsinger also came on, another great highlight and again we didn't have a lot of time, he was running a bit late, he had a tight schedule but it shows how smart he is, he's really super technical and he actually understands at a root level what's going on so he's actually a great CEO right now, the financial performance is there and he's also very technical, and I think it encapsulates all of it that Dell Technologies, under Michael Dell, he's making so much more money, he's going to be richer and richer. (laughing) He took an entrepreneurial bet, it wasn't hurting at the time but Dell was kind of boring, Dave. I wouldn't call it like an innovative company at the time when they were public using the 90 day shot clock. They had some things going on but they were a hardware company, a supplier to IT footprints-- >> Whoa, whoa, they were 60 billion dollars in revenue and a 20 billion dollar market gap, so something was broken. >> Well I mean it was working numbers wise but he seemed-- >> No that's opposite, a 20 billion dollar value on a 60 billion of revenue, is you're sort of a failure, so anyway, at the time. >> Market conditions aside, right, at the time, he seemed like he wanted to do something entrepreneurial and the takeaway from my interview with him, our interview with him, was he took an entrepreneurial bet put his own cash on the table and it's paying off, that horse is coming in. He's going to make more money on this transaction and takes EMC out of the game, folds it into the operations, it really is going to be, I think, a financial success story if market conditions continue to be the way they are. Michael Dell will go down as a great financial maneuver and he'll be in the top epsilon of deals. >> The story people might forget is that Carl Icahn tried to take the company away from him. Michael Dell beat the great Carl Icahn, which doesn't happen often. Why did Carl Icahn want to take Dell private? Because he knew he could make a boatload of money off of it and Michael Dell said, "No way you're taking my company. "I'm going to do my thing and change the industry." >> He's going to have 90% voting control with Silver Lake Partners when the deal is all said and done and taking a company private and the executing the financial engineering plus execution is really hard to do, look at Elon Musk in the news today. He's trying to take Tesla private, he got his butt handed to him. Now he's saying, "No, we're going to stay public." (laughing) >> Wait, guys, are you saying Michael, after he gets all this money from VMware that it will help them go public, he's not going to sell off VMware or get rid of that, right? >> Well that's a joke that he would sell VMware, I mean-- >> Unless the cash is going to be good? >> No, he won't do it. >> I don't think it'll happen. I mean, maybe some day he sells some of the portion of it but you're not going to give up control of it, why would he? It's throwing off so much cash. He's got Silver Lake as a private equity company, they understand this inside and out. I mean this transaction goes down in history as one of the greatest trades ever. >> Yeah. >> Let me ask you guys a question, because I think is one we brought up in the interview because at that time, the pundits, we were actually right on this deal. We were very bullish on it, and we actually analyzed it. You guys did a good job at Wikibon and we on theCUBE pretty much laid out what happened. He executed it, we put the risks out there, but at the time people were saying, "This is a bad deal, EMC." The current state of IT at that time looked like it was dismal but the market forces that changed were cloud, and so what were those sideways impact points that no one understood, that really helped him lift this up? What's your thoughts, Dave, on that? >> First of all the desktop business did way better than anybody thought it would, which is amazing and actually EMC did pretty poorly for a while and so that was kind of a head fake. And then as we knew, VMware crushed it and crushed it even more than anybody expected so that threw off so much cash they were able to deliver, they did Pivotal, they did a Pivotal IPO, sold some software assets. I mean basically Michael Dell and his team did everything they said they said they were going to do and it's worked out, as he said today, even better than they possibly thought. >> Well and the commentary I'd give here is when the acquisition of EMC by Dell happened, the big turn we had is the impact of cloud and we said, "Well, okay they've got VMware over there "and they've got Pivotal but Dell's "just going to be a boring infrastructure company "with server, network and storage." The message that we heard at Dell World and maturing even more here is that this portfolio of families. Yes, VMware's a big piece of it, NSX and the networking, but Pivotal with PKS, all of those tie in to what's Dell's selling. Every time they're selling VxRail, you know that has a big VMware piece. They do the networking piece that extends across multi clouds, so Dell has a much better multi cloud story than I expected them to have when they bought EMC. >> But now, VMware hides a lot of warts. >> Yeah. >> Right? >> Absolutely. >> Let's be honest about that. >> What are they? >> Okay. I still think the client business is exposed. I mean as great as it is, you got to gain share in that business if you want to keep winning, number one. Number two is, the big question I have is can the core of Dell EMC continue to innovate or will it just make incremental improvements, have to do acquisitions to do innovation, inorganic acquisitions, and end up with more stovepipes? That's always been, Stu used to work there, that was always EMC's biggest challenge. Jeff Clark came in and said, "Okay, we're going to rationalize the portfolio." That has backlash as customer's say, "Well wait a minute, does that mean "you're not going to support my products?" No, no, we're going to support your products. So they've got to continue to innovate. As I say, VMware, because of how much cash it throws off, it's 50% of the company's profits, hides a lot of those exposures. >> And if VMware takes a turn, if market conditions change, the debt looming is exposed so again, the game's not over for Dell. He can see the finish line, but. (laughing) >> Buy low, sell high, guess who's selling right now? >> So a lot of financial impact, continued innovation but at the end of the day, guys, this is all about impacting customer's businesses. Not just from we've got to enable them to be successful in this multi cloud era, that's the norm today. They need to facilitate successful digital transformations, business outcomes, but they also have VMware, Dell EMC, Dell Technologies, great power to help customer's transform their cultures. I'd love to get perspective from you guys because I love the voice to the customer, what are some of your favorite Dell EMC, VMware, partner, customer stories that you've heard the last couple days that really articulate the value of this financial successful company that they're achieving? >> Well the first thing I'll say before we get to the customer stories is on your point about what VMware's doing, is they're a technology, Robin Matlock, the CMO was on theCUBE talking about they're a technology company, they have the hands on labs, they're a very geeky audience, which we love. But they have to get leadership on the product side, they got to maintain the R and D, they got to have best in class technical products that actually are relevant. You look at companies like Tintri that went bankrupt, great technology, cul-de-sac market. There's no market there, the world's going cloud. So to me VMware has to start pumping out really strong products and technologies that the customer's are going to buy, right? (laughing) >> In conjunction with the customer to help co-develop what the customer's need. >> So I was talking to a customer and he said, "Look, I'm 10 years behind where the cloud guys are "with Amazon so all I want is VMware "to make my life easier, continue to cut my costs. "I like the way I'm operating, "I just get constant pressure to cut cost, "so if they keep doing that, I'm going to stay with them "for a long, long time." Pete Townsend said it best, companies like VMware, Dell EMC, they move at the speed of the CIO and as long as they can move at the speed of the CIO, I've said this a million times, the rich get richer and it's why competent management that led by founders like Larry Ellison, like Michael Dell, continue to do well in this industry. >> And Andy Jassy technically, I would say, a found of AWS because he started it. >> Absolutely. >> A key, the other thing I would also say from a customer, we hear a lot of customer, I won't name names because a lot of our data's in hallway conversations and at night when we go out and get the real stories. On theCUBE it's mostly, oh we've been very successful at VM, we use virtualization, blah, blah, blah and it's an IT story, but the customers in the hallways that are off the record are saying essentially this, I'm paraphrasing, look it, we have an operation to run. I love this cloud stuff and I'd love to just blink my fingers and be in the cloud and just get rid of all this and operate at a level of cloud native, I just can't. I can't get there. They see Amazon's relationship with VMware as a bridge to the future and takes away a lot of cognitive dissonance around the feelings around VMware's lack of cloud, if you will. In this case, now that's satisfied with the AWS deal and they're focused on operations on premises and how to get their app more closed, like modernize so a lot of the blocking and tackling of the customer is I got virtualization and that's great but I don't want to miss out on the next lever of innovation. Okay, I'm looking at it going slow but no one's instantly migrating to the cloud. >> No way, no way. >> They're either born in the cloud or you're on migration schedules now, really evaluating the financial impact, economic impact, headcount impact of cloud. That's the reality of the cloud. >> You got to throw a flag on some of that messaging of how easy it is to migrate. I mean it's just not that easy. I've talked to customers that said, "Well we started it and we just kind of gave up. "There was no point in it. "The new stuff we're going to do in the cloud, "but we're not going to migrate all of our apps to the cloud, "it just makes no sense, there's no business case for it." >> This is where NSX and containers and Kubernetes bet is big, I think, I think if NSX can connect the clouds with some sort of interoperable layer for whatever workloads are going to move on either Amazon or the clouds, that's good. If they want to get the developers off virtualization, into a new drug, if you will, it's going to be services, micro services, Kubernetes because you can throw containers around those old workloads, modernize with the new stuff without killing the old and Stu and I heard this clear at the CNCF and the Lennox Foundation, that this has changed the mindset because you don't have to kill the old to bring in the new. You can bring in the new, containerize the old and manage on your speed of the CIO. >> And that's Amazon's bet isn't it? I mean, look, even Sanjay even said, if you go back five, six years, the original reinvent that was sweep the floor, bring it all into the cloud? I think that's in Amazon's DNA. I mean ultimately that's their vision. That's what they want to have happen and the way they get there is how you just described it, John. >> That's where this partnership between Amazon and VMware is so important because, right, Amazon has a lot of the developers but needs to be able to get deeper into the enterprise and VMware, starting to make some progress with the developers, they've got a code initiative, they've got all of these cool projects that they announced with everything from server less and Kubernetes and many others, Edge going to be a key use case there but you know, VMware is not, this is not the developer show. Most of the conversations that I had with customers, we're talking IT things, I mean customers doing some cool things but it's about simplifying in my environment, it's about helping operations. Most of the conversations are not about this cool new micro services building these things out. >> Cisco really is the only legacy, traditional enterprise company that's crushing developers. You give IBM some chops, too, but I wouldn't say they're crushing it. We saw that at Cisco Live, Cisco is doing a phenomenal job with developers. >> Well the thing about the cloud, one thing I've been pointing out, observation that I have is if you look at the future of the cloud and you can look for metaphors and/or real examples, I think Amazon Web Services, obviously we know them well but Google Cloud to me is a picture of the future. Not in the sense of what they have for the customer's today it's the way they've run their business from day one. They have developers and they have SREs, Site Reliability Engineers. This VMworld community is going down two paths. Developers are going to be rapidly iterating on real apps and operators who are going to be running systems. That's network storage, all integrated. That's like an SRE at Google. Google's running massive scale and they perfected it, hence Kubernetes, hence some of the tools coming in to services like Istio and things that we're seeing in the Lennox Foundation. To me that's the future model, it's an operator and set of developers. Whoever can make that easy, completely seamless, is the winner of it all. >> And the linchpin, a linchpin, maybe not the linchpin, but a linchpin is still the database, right? We've seen that with Oracle. Why is Amazon going so hard after the database? I mean it's blatantly obvious what their strategy is. >> Database is the hill that everyone is trying to take down. Capture the hill, you get the high ground with the database. >> Come on Dave, when you used to do the financial models of how much money is spent by the enterprise, that database was a big chunk. We've seen the erosion of lots of licensing out there. When I talked to Microsoft, they're like, pushing a lot of open source, they're going to cloud. Microsoft licensing isn't as much. VMware licensing is something that customers would like to shrink over time but database is even bigger. >> It's a strategic fulcrum, obviously Oracle has it. Microsoft clearly has it with Sequel Server. IBM, a big part of IBM's success to this day, is DB2 running on mainframe. (laughing) So Amazon wants a piece of that action, they understand to be a major player in this business you have to have database infrastructure. >> I mean costs are going down, it's going to come down to economics. End of the day the operating models as I said, some things about DB2 on mainframe, the bottom line's going to come down to when the cost numbers to run at the value and cost expense involved in running the tech that's going to be the ultimate way that things are either going to be cleared out or replaced or expanded so the bottom line is it's going to be a cost equation at that level and then the upside's going to be revenue. >> And just a great thing for VMware, since they don't own the application, when they do things like RDS in their environment they are freeing up dollars that customers are then going to be more likely to want to spend with VMware. >> Great point. I want to make real quick, three things we've been watching this week. Is the Amazon VMware deal a one way trip to the cloud? I think it's clear not in the near term, anyway. And the second is what about the edge? The edge to me is all about data, it's like the wild, wild west. It's very unclear that there's a winner there but there's a new type of cloud emerging. And three is the Dell structure. We asked Pat, we asked VMware Ray O'Farrell, we asked Michael, if that 11 billion dollar special dividend was going to impact VMware's ability to fund it's future? Consistent answer there, no. You know, we'll see, we'll see. >> I mean what are they going to say? Yeah, that really limits my ability to buy companies, on theCUBE? No, that's the messaging so of course, 11 billion dollars gone means they can't do MNA with the cash, that means, yeah it's going to be R and D, what does that mean? Investment, so I think the answer is yes it does limit them a little bit. >> Has to. >> It's cash going out the door. >> But VMware just spent, it is rumored, around 500 million dollars for CloudHealth Technologies, Dave, Boston based company, with about 200 people You know, hey, have a billion-- >> They're going to put back a dividend anyway and do stock buybacks but I'm not sure 11 out of the 13 billion is what they would choose to do that for, so going forward, we'll see how it all plays out, obviously. I think, Floyer wrote about this, more has to go toward VMware, less toward-- >> I think it's the other way around. >> Well I think it's really good that we have one more day tomorrow. >> I think it's a one way trip to the cloud in a lot of instances, I think a lot of VMware customers are going to go off virtualization, not hypervisor and end up being in the cloud most of the business. It's going to be interesting, I think the size of customers that Amazon has now, versus VMware is what? Does VMware have more customers than Amazon right now? >> It's pretty close, right? VMware's 500,000? >> 500,000 for VMware. >> And Amazon's-- >> Over a million. >> Are they over a million, really? >> Yeah. >> A lot of smaller customers, but still. >> Yeah. >> Customer's a customer. >> But VMware might have bigger customers, see that's-- >> No question the ASP is higher, but-- >> It's not conflict, I'm just thinking like cloud is natural, right? Why wouldn't you want to use the cloud, right? I mean. >> So guys-- >> So the debate continues. >> Exactly. Good news is we have more time tomorrow to talk more about all this innovation as well as see more real world examples of how VMware is going to be enabling tech for good. Guys, thanks so much for your commentary and letting me be a part of the wrap. >> Thank you. >> Thanks, Lisa. >> Looking forward to day three tomorrow. For Dave, Stu and John, I'm Lisa Martin. You've been watching our coverage of day two VMworld 2018. We look forward to you joining us tomorrow, for day three. (upbeat techno music)

>> Live from Washington D.C. It's theCUBE, covering the AWS Public Sector Summit 2018. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services, and its eco-system partners. (upbeat music) >> Welcome back to the nation's capitol. I'm Stu Miniman and you're watching theCUBE's coverage of AWS Public Sector Summit 2018. Joining me for the wrap-up of day one, John Furrier, Dave Vellante. So John, thanks for bringing us down. So you were here last year. We've interviewed Teresa Carlson a number of times at Reinvent, but we've got to start with you. Since you were here last year, watching this explode. I said, this reminds me of Reinvent three years ago, how big it is, 14,500 people, wow. >> Yeah, so you're right on. This is definitely a Reinvent kind of vibe, in a way to describe what happened with Amazon Reinvent, their annual conference which we were at the 2nd year, 2013, and have been every year. Reinvent got bigger every year, and just became more prominent, and the solutions scaled, the number of announcements, as we know Amazon today is packed, it's bigger than ever. The public sector market, which is defined as government, education, and global public sector countries like Bahrain and other countries, are really the target. They have unique requirements. So what's happening is that that market is being disrupted, and there's been similar moments in the public sector here in the United States, as well known. The fail of the website that Obama. You know, the health care sight was one. The government initiatives that have been going on. The government is not modern and people are frustrated. The IT workers are living in cages, they're strapped in. It's like, not good. The tooling's old, old client server, old vendors like Oracle and IBM and others that are trying to keep that business, and they're not modernizing. So, this modernization wave has hit the public sector across the board, and what's happening is they can actually build newer systems faster, and get lower cost, more efficiency, done faster. And this is disrupting not only their business model, but how they buy technology, the role of the supplier in that piece of the equation, and also just overall faster innovation. So, this is driving it. The shocker of all of it is the security conversation has been up leveled, meaning it's not a real issue. Certainly the security is a real issue, but in terms of a barrier that stops everything, that's not the case anymore. The CIA is really the most notable that came on and said the worst day in cloud security is better than anything we got working today. So that's a really interesting thing and the Department of Defense Jedi project is billions of dollars that would have gone to say, an Oracle, IBM, and all the incumbents, or, beltway bandits, as they've been called. Those days are over. So that to me is a really exciting thing for the country. But, Amazon is running the tables too. So again, this year, more of the same, bigger. Big agencies. Small partners and big, all riding the wave of growth. And, it's a new operating model, and again, we'll predict it here in theCUBE, as we always say, and then we'll be right again. This is going to be a special market for Amazon going forward. >> I think government market is definitely a microcosm of the overall marketplace as John said. It's very bureaucratic, they're slower to move, you got to regime change every four or eight years, so a lot of turnover. It's really hard to get. Okay, we're going to go with strategy, cause the strategy as they start stop, it's a near to mid term strategies are affected in the government. Obviously, there's a greater focus on security. Cloud addresses a lot of those. We certainly heard that from the CIA. I don't think you can talk about cloud and federal, without talking about that milestone CIA deal. That really was a watershed moment. It was a wake up call to the old guard. IBM, as you might recall, tried to fight the government, because the CIA awarded the contract to Amazon. IBM lost that case, they were eviscerated by the judge. It forced IBM to go out and pay two billion dollars for software. It was years later that Oracle really got in. So, Amazon, to an earlier guest's point, has a huge lead. The estimate was five to 10 years, I heard, over some of the legacy suppliers. Interesting, not sure exactly where Microsoft fits in there. Stu, I'd love to get your thoughts. The thing about cloud that we've, John, you talk about being right, for years, we've talked about the economics of cloud, the scale of cloud, the marginal economics, looking much more like software. That's clearly been to Amazon's advantage. And, they're mopping the floor with guys who can't keep pace. And so, that's played out in a big way, and this seems to be a winner take all market. Or, a few companies take all market. >> Yeah, the thing that I actually wanted to comment on that's really interesting to dig in here, is if you talk about application modernization. Yes, it is super challenging, and it's not happening overnight, but, have heard universities, non profits, they're moving. It's not just mobility, moving to the web, but talking about how they are decoupling and creating cloud native microservices environments. So, was talking to a large, government healthcare organization that was super excited to show me how he was going to take his really old application, and start pulling together services at a time. And, he's like, I've got 130 services. And here's how I'll stick a router in here and I'll start pulling them off to the cloud. Talked to a big university and said, how are they going from, my data center, which I'm out of power, I'm out of capacity. I'm going to use the VMWare thing, but over time, I'm moving to containers, I'm moving to serverless. That modernization, we know it's not moving all of it to the public cloud, but that migration is happening. It is challenging and as I've said many times in many of these Amazon shows, Dave and John, it's the companies that come here. They're the ones that are trying cool stuff. They're are able to play in some of these environments and they make progress. So, the thing that really excites me too, is when you hear government agencies that are doing innovative, cool things. It's like, how do I leverage my data and give back to the communities I serve. Help charities, help our communities, and do it in cost effective ways. >> Stu, I got to say, Dave, Theresa Carlson just came by theCUBE, we gave her a wave. She's the CEO of Public Sector, as I call her, she's the chief, she's in charge. Andy Jackson's the CEO of AWS, but again, public sector's almost its own little pocket of AWS. Her leadership, I think, is a real driving force of why it was successful so fast. Theresa Carleson is hard charging, she knows the government game. She's super nice, but she can fight. And she motivates her team. But she listens to the customers, and she takes advantage of that Amazon vibe, which is solve a problem, lower prices, make things go faster, that's the flywheel of the culture. And she brings it to a whole nother level. She's brought together a group of people that are succeeding with her. She leans on her partners, so partners are making money. She's bringing in cloud native kind of culture. I mean, CrowdStrike, you can't get any better than seeing guys like CrowdStrike raise 200 million dollars, Dave, today announced, worth over three billion dollars, because they built their system to work for cloud scale. CloudChecker, another company. Purpose built for the cloud and is extremely successful because they're not trying to retrofit an enterprise technology and make it cloudified. They actually built it for the cloud. This, to me, is a signal of what has to happen on successful deployments, from a customer standpoint. And I think that's what attracting the customers and they will change their operations 'cause the benefits are multifold and they're pretty big. Financially, operationally, culturally, it's disruptive. So I think that's a key point. >> Yeah, and I think again, this a microcosm of the larger AWS, which is a microcosm of the larger Amazon, but, some of the things we heard today, some of the benchmarks and milestones from Theresa on the keynote. 60 consultancies that she put up on the slide, 200 ISVs ans SAAS companies, 950 third-party software providers, this is all GovCloud. And then Aurora now in GovCloud, which is, you know, you see here, it lags. >> Database. >> Amazon and Specter, you've heard a lot about database. Amazon and Specter, which manages security configurations. We heard about the intent to go forward with the VMWare partnership, the VMWare cloud in GovCloud. So, a little bit behind where you see the Amazon web services in commercial. But, taking basically the same strategy as John said. The requirements are different. I also think, Stu and John, it's important to point out just the progress of AWS. We're talking about tracking to 22 billion dollars this year. They're growing still at 15 percent, that massive number. 26 percent operating income. Their operating income is growing at 54 percent a year. So, just to compare Amazon web services to other so called infrastructure providers, HPE's operating income is eight percent, IBM's is nine percent, VMWare, which is a software company, is at 19 percent, Amazon's at 26 percent. It's Cisco level of profitability. Only companies like Oracle and Microsoft are showing better operating income. This is that marginal economics, that we've talked about for years. And Amazon is crushing it, just in terms of the economic model. >> Yeah, and they bring in the public sector. Can you imagine that disruption for that incumbent mindset of these government kind of agencies that have been the frog in boiling water for so many years around IT. It's like Boom, what a wake up call. If you know IT, you know what it's like. Older tools, huge budget cycles, massive amounts of technology trends in terms of time to value. I mean, Stu, you've seen this buoy before. >> Yeah, absolutely, and it's interesting. Some of the things we heard is there's challenge in the government sometimes, moving from capex to opex. The way that government is used to buying is they buy out of the GSA catalog, they are making that move. We actually had on the federal CTO for Cohesity, came from the GSA, and he said we're making progress as an industry on this. Dave, you mentioned a whole lot of stats here. I mean, year after year, Q1 Amazon was up 49 percent revenue growth. So, you know, you always hear on the news, it's like, oh well, market share is shifting. Amazon is still growing at such a phenomenal pace, and in the GovCloud, one of the things I thought Kind of interesting that gets overlooked is the GovCloud is about five years, no it launched in August of 2011, so it's coming up on seven years. It's actually based out of the West Coast. They have GovCloud, US East is coming later this year. And we talked in the VMWare interview that we did today about why some of the lag and you need to go through the certification and you need to make sure there's extra security levels. Because, there's not only GovCloud, then they've got the secret region, the top secret region, so special things that we need to make sure that you're FedRAMP compliant and all these things. Amazon is hitting it hard, and definitely winning in this space. >> Yeah, and they have a competitive advantage, I mean, they're running the table, literally. Because no body else has secret cloud, right? So, Amazon, Google, others, they don't have what the spec requires on these big agencies, like the DOD. So, it's not a sole source deal. And we saw the press that President Trump had dinner with Safra Catz, the CEO of Oracle. And, that Amazon, that people are crying foul. Making a multicloud, multivendor kind of, be fair, you know fairness. Amazon's not asking for sole source, they're just saying we're responding to the bid. And, we're the only ones that actually can do it. You know, John Wood, the CEO of Telos, said it best on theCUBE today, Amazon is well down the road, five years advantage over any cloud, five years he said. >> There's no compression algorithm for experience, right? >> Right, right, but this is a real conundrum for the government buyers, the citizens, and the vendors. So, typically, let's face it, technology, IBM, HPE, Oracle, Dell, they can all pretty much do the same thing. Granted, they got software, Cisco, whatever. They got their different spaces, but head to head, they all pretty much can do what the RFP requires. But what you just pointed out John, is Amazon's the only one that can do a lot of this stuff, and so, when they say, okay let's make it fair, what they're really saying is, let's revert back to the mean. Is that the right thing for the citizens? That's the kind of question that's on the table now. As a citizen, do you want the government pushing the envelope... >> That's what he said from CrowdStrike, why go backwards? >> Right, right, but that's essentially what the old guard is saying. Come back to us, make it fair, is that unfair? >> You're too successful, let the competition catch up, so it can be fair. No, they've got to match up the value proposition. And that fundamentally is going to put the feet to fire of government and it's going to be a real critical tell sign on how much teeth to the mission that the government modernization plan is. If that mission to be modernizing government has teeth, they will stay in the course. Now, if they have the way to catch up, that's great. I can already hear it on Twitter, John, you don't really know what you're talking about. Microsoft's right there. Okay, you can say you're doing cloud, but as they teach you in business school, there's diseconomies of scale, to try to match a trajectory of an experienced cloud vendor. Stu, you just mentioned that, let's explore that. If I want to match Amazon's years of experience, I can say I'm up there with all these services, but you can't just match that overnight. There's diseconomies of scale, reverse proxies, technical debt, all kinds of stuff. So, Microsoft, although looking good on paper, is under serious pressure and those diseconomies of scales creates more risk. That more risk is more downtime. They just saw 11 hours of downtime on Microsoft Azure in Europe, 11 hours. That's massive, it's not like, oh, something just happened for a day. >> Here's the behind the scenes narrative that you hear from certain factions. Is, hey, we hire people, let's say I'm talkin' about Microsoft, we hire people out of Amazon too, we know where they're at. We think we've narrowed that lead down to six months. You and I have both heard that. When you talk to people on the other side of the table, it's like, no way, there's no way. We're movin' faster, in fact, our lead is extended. So, the proof is in the pudding. In the results that you see in the marketplace. >> Well, and just to build on that, the customers. Amazon has the customers, you talk to anybody that's in these agencies, you know, like any industry, they're all moving around. Not only the federal, but, I had a great interview with Nutanix this morning, he said this was the best collection of state and local government that I ever had. It's like I got to meet all my customers in person last year when they came here. So, the fed kind of sets the bar, and then state, local, education, they all learn there. So, as you said, John, Theresa and her team have really built a flywheel of customers, and those customers, they understand the product. They're going deeper on that. >> But look, Microsoft has success where it has a software state. Clearly there are a lot of Microsoft customers in the government, and they're going to do very well there. But it's really different. We're talkin' about the inventor, essentially, of infrastructure as a service in Public Cloud and Amazon with a clean sheet of paper. >> Microsoft, Google and the others, they have to catch up. So, really if you look at, let's compare and contrast. Amazon, first mover, they did the heavy lifting up front. They win the CIA deal three, four years ago. Now they're going to win the DOD deal and more. So, they've got the boiler plate, and they've got scale, economies of scale. Microsoft's got to catch up, so, they've got diseconomies of scale. Google is kind of backing out, we heard. Some Google employees revolting cause they don't want to work on these AI projects for drones or what not. But, Google's approach is not tryin' to match Amazon speed for speed, they're thing is they have leverage. Their Android, their security, the data. So, Google's staying much more pragmatic. And they're humble, they're saying, look, we're not tryin' to match Amazon. But we're going to have a badass cloud from a Google perspective. Microsoft hasn't yet said that, they just try to level up. I think if Microsoft takes that approach, they will do well. >> Well, you got to give Microsoft a lot of credit, obviously for the transformation that's occurred. Again it's still tied to the company's software estate, in my view anyway. >> All right Stu, what's your impression, what's your take? >> So, John, like every Amazon show I've been to, I'm impressed, it set a high bar. We go to a lot of shows and not only are there more people here, but the quality of people, the energy, the passion, the discussion of innovation and change, is just super impressive. >> You and I cover cloud data pretty deep. We go to all the shows, obviously the Lennox Foundation and Amazon Reinvent, and others. Does the Public Sector have that vibe in your opinion? What's your sense of it? >> Oh, yeah, no, I've already had a couple of conversations about Kubernetes and Lambda, you know, more serverless conversations at this show than almost any show I go to, other than probably KubeCon or the Serverless conf. So, no, advanced users, these are not the ones, a couple of years ago, oh I'm checking what this is. No, no, no, they're in, they're deep, they're using. >> Yeah, I notice also, near the press room, they had the certification stickers, now levels of certifications. So, they're just movin' the ball down the field at Amazon. Dave, I want to go to you and ask you what your impression is. Obviously, you know, we've done shows like HPE Reinvent, which we didn't do this year. That's goin' down its own path. We've got other shows. >> HPE Discover you mean. >> What did I say? >> You said Reinvent. >> Okay, every year they break. >> There's two ends of the spectrum. >> You know, there's is going to try to transform. What's your take of this show, Public Sector? What's your view? >> Well, first of all, it's packed. And, the ecosystem here is really robust. I mean, you see the consultancies, you see every technology vendor, I mean, it's quite amazing. They got to figure out the logistics, right? I've never seen a line so long. The line to get into registration was longer than Disney lines this morning. I mean, really, it was amazing. >> It's a Disneyland for Public Sector. >> It really is, and people are excited here. I think you were touching upon it before. They've sort of been hit with this bureaucratic, you know, cemented infrastructure. And now, it's like they're takin' the gloves off and they're really excited. >> Stu and Dave, I really got to say, I'm not a big federal person, over the years in my career but my general impression over the past couple years, diggin' in here, is that most of the people in the agency want to do a good job. I saw that last year, it's like, these are real innovators. And finally they can break away, right, and do some real, good. Not do shadow IT, do it legit with a cloud. So, good stuff. Guys, thanks for commentating, Stu? >> Yeah, so let me bring it on home. I just want to say, this goes up in a podcast, if you go to your favorite podcast player and look for theCUBE Insights, you'll find this as well as the key analysis from our team from all of the shows. Of course, as always, go to theCube dot net to get all the research. If you want the exclusive, more detail on Theresa Carlson, just search John Ferrier in Forbes and you'll find that article. This is the end of Day One of two days live coverage from AWS Public Sector. Of course, theCUBE dot net, come find us, we've got stickers if you're at the show. For Dave Vellante, John Furrier, I'm Stu Miniman. And as always, thanks so much for watching theCUBE. (techno music)

>> Announcer: Live from Austin, Texas, It's The Cube. Covering KubeCon 2017 and CloudNativeCon 2017. Brought to you by Red Hat, The Lennox Foundation, and The Cube's ecosystem partners. >> Okay, welcome back everyone. Live here in Austin, Texas, this is The Cube's exclusive coverage of the CNCF CloudNativeCon which was yesterday, and today is KubeCon, for Kubernetes conference, and a little bit tomorrow as well, some sessions. Our next guest is Adrian Cockcroft, VP of Cloud Architecture Strategy at AWS, Amazon Web Services, and my co-host Stu Miniman. Obviously, Adrian, an industry legend on Twitter and the industry, formerly with Netflix, knows a lot about AWS, now VP of Cloud Architecture, thanks for joining us. Appreciate it. >> Thanks very much. >> This is your first time as an AWS employee on The Cube. You've been verified. >> I've been on The Cube before. >> Many times. You've been verified. What's going on now with you guys, obviously coming off a hugely successful reinvent, there's a ton of video of me ranting and raving about how you guys are winning, and there's no second place, in the rear-view mirror, certainly Amazon's doing great. But CloudNative's got the formula, here. This is a cultural shift. What is going on here that's similar to what you guys are doing architecturally, why are you guys here, are you evangelizing, are you recruiting, are you proposing anything? What's the story? >> Yeah, it's really all of those things. We've been doing CloudNative for a long time, and the key thing with AWS, we always listen to our customers, and go wherever they take us. That's a big piece of the way we've always managed to keep on top of everything. And in this case, the whole container industry, there's a whole whole market there, there's a lot of different pieces, we've been working on that for a long time, and we found more and more people interested in CNCF and Kubernetes, and really started to engage. Part of my role is to host the open source team that does outbound engagement with all the different open source communities. So I've hired a few people, I hired Arun Gupta, who's very active in CNCF earlier this year, and internally we were looking at, we need to join CNCF at some point. We got to do that eventually and venture in, let's go make it happen. So last summer we just did all the internal paperwork, and running around talking to people and got everyone on the same page. And then in August we announced, hey, we're joining. So we got that done. I'm on the board of CNCF, Arun's my alternate for the board and technical, running around, and really deeply involved in as much of the technology and everything. And then that was largely so that we could kind of get our contributions from engineering on a clear footing. We were starting to contribute to Kupernetes, like as an outsider to the whole thing. So that's why we're, what's going on here? So getting that in place was like the basis for getting the contributions in place, we start hiring, we get the teams in place, and then getting our ducks in a row, if you like. And then last week at Reinvent, we announced EKS, the EC2 Kubernete's Service. And this week, we all had to be here. Like last week after Reinvent, everyone at AWS wants to go and sleep for a week. But no, we're going to go to Austin, we're going to do this. So we have about 20 people here, we came in, I did a little keynote yesterday. I could talk through the different topics, there, but fundamentally we wanted to be here where we've got the engineering teams here, we've got the engineering managers, they're in full-on hiring mode, because we've got the basic teams in place, but there's a lot more we want to do, and we're just going out and engaging, really getting to know the customers in detail. So that's really what drives it. Customer interactions, little bit of hiring, and just being present in this community. >> Adrian, you're very well known in the open source community, everything that you've done. Netflix, when you were on the VC side, you evangelized a bunch of it, if I can use the term. Amazon, many of us from the outside looked and, trying to understand. Obviously Amazon used lots of open source, Amazon's participated in a number of open source. MXNet got a lot of attention, joining the CNCF is something, I know this community, it's been very positively received, everybody's been waiting for it. What can you tell us about how Amazon, how do they think about open source? Is that something that fits into the strategy, or is it a tactic? Obviously, you're building out your teams, that sends certain signals to market, but can you help clarify for those of us that are watching what Amazon thinks about when it comes to this space? >> I think we've been, so, we didn't really have a team focused on outbound communication of what we were doing in open source until I started building this team a year ago. I think that was the missing link. We were actually doing a lot more than most people realized. I'd summarize it as saying, we were doing more than most people expected, but less than we probably could have been given the scale of what we are, the scale that AWS is at. So part of what we're doing is unlocking some internal demand where engineering teams were going. We'd like to open source something, we don't know how to engage with the communities. We're trying to build trust with these communities, and I've hired a team, I've got several people now, who are mostly from the open source community, we were also was kind of interviewing people like crazy. That was our sourcing for this team. So we get these people in and then we kind of say, all right, we have somebody that understands how to build these communities, how to respond, how to engage with the open source community. It's a little different to a standard customer, enterprise, start up, those are different entities that you'd want to relate to. But from a customer point of view, being customer-obsessed as AWS is, how do we get AWS to listen to an open source community and work with them, and meet all their concerns. So we've been, I think, doing a better job of that now we've pretty much got the team in place. >> That's your point, is customer focus is the ethos there. The communities are your customers in this case. So you're formalizing, you're formalizing that for Amazon, which has been so busy building out, and contributing here and there, so it sounds like there was a lot of activity going on within AWS, it was just kind of like contributing, but so much work on building out cloud ... >> Well there's a lot going on, but if no one was out there telling the story, you didn't know about it. Actually one of the best analogies we have for the EKS is actually our EMR, our Hadoop service, which launched 2010 or something, 2009, we've had it forever. But from the first few years when we did EMR, it was actually in a fork. We kept just sort of building our own version of it to do things, but about three or four years ago, we started upstreaming everything, and it's a completely clean, upstreamed version of all the Hadoop and all the related projects. But you make one API call, a cluster appears. Hey, give me a Hadoop cluster. Voom, and I want Spark and I want all these other things on it. And we're basically taking Kubernetes, it's very similar, we're going to reduce that to a single API call, a cluster appears, and it's a fully upstreamed experience. So that's, in terms of an engineering relationship to open source, we've already got a pretty good success story that nobody really knew about. And we're following a very similar path. >> Adrian, can you help us kind of unpack the Amazon Kubernetes stack a little bit? One of the announcements had a lot of attention, definitely got our attention, Fargate, kind of sits underneath what Kubernetes is doing, my understanding. Where are you sitting with the service measures, kind of bring us through the Amazon stack. What does Amazon do on its own versus the open source, and how those all fit together. >> Yeah, so everyone knows Amazon is a place where you can get virtual machines. It's easy to get me a virtual machine from ten years ago, everyone gets that, right? And then about three years ago, I think it was three years ago, we announced Lambda - was that two or three years ago? I lose track of how many reinvents ago it was. But with Lambda it's like, well, just give me a function. But as a first class entity, there's a, give me a function, here's the code I want you to run. We've now added two new ways that you can deploy to, two things you can deploy to. One of them's bare metal, which is already announced, one of the many, many, many announcements last week that might have slipped by without you noticing, but Bare Metal is a service. People go, 'those machines are really big'. Yes, of course they're really big! You get the whole machine and you can be able to bring your own virtualization or run whatever you want. But you could launch, you could run Kubernetes on that if you wanted, but we don't really care what you run it on. So we had Bare Metal, and then we have container. So Fargate is container as a first class entity that you deploy to. So here's my container registry, point you at it, and run one of these for me. And you don't have to think about deploying the underlying machines it's running on, you don't have to think about what version of Lennox it is, you have to build an AMI, all of the agents and fussing around, and you can get it in much smaller chunks. So you can say you get a CPU and half a gig of ram, and have that as just a small container. So it becomes much more granular, and you can get a broader range of mixes. A lot of our instances are sort of powers of two of a ratio of CPU to memory, and with Fargate you can ask for a much broader ratio. So you can have more CPU, less memory, and go back the other way, as well. 'Cause we can mix it up more easily at the container level. So it gives you a lot more flexibility, and if you buy into this, basically you'll get to do a lot of cost reduction for the sort of smaller scale things that you're running. Maybe test environments, you could shrink them down to just the containers and not have a lot of wasted space where you're trying to, you have too many instances running that you want to put it in. So it's partly the finer grain giving you more ability to say -- >> John: Or consumption choice. >> Yeah, and the other thing that we did recently was move to per-second billing, after the first minute, it's per-second. So the granularity of Cloud is now getting to be extremely fine-grained, and Lambda is per hundred millisecond, so it's just a little bit -- >> $4.03 for your bill, I mean this is the key thing. You guys have simplified the consumption experience. Bare Metal, VM's, containers, and functions. I mean pick one. >> Or pick all of them, it's fine. And when you look at the way Fargate's deployed in ECS it's a mixture. It's not all one or all the other, you deploy a number of instances with your containers on them, plus Fargate to deploy some additional containers that maybe didn't fit those instances. Maybe you've got a fleet of GPU enhanced machines, but you want to run a bit of Logic around it, some other containers in the same execution environment, but these don't need to be on the GPU. That kind of thing, you can mix it up. The other part of the question was, so how does this play into Kubernetes, and the discussions are just that we had to release the thing first, and then we can start talking, okay, how does this fit. Parts of the model fit into Kubernetes, parts don't. So we have to expose some more functionality in Fargate for this to make sense, 'cause we've got a really minimal initial release right now, we're going to expose it and add some more features. And then we possibly have to look at ways that we mutate Kubernetes a little bit for it to fit. So the initial EKS release won't include Fargate, because we're just trying to get it out based on what everyone knows today, we'd rather get that out earlier. But we'll be doing development work in the meantime, so a subsequent release we'll have done the integration work, which will all happen in public, in discussion with the community, and we'll have a debate about, okay, this is the features Fargate needs to properly integrate into Kubernetes, and there are other similar services from other top providers that want to integrate to the same API. So it's all going to be done as a public development, how we architect this. >> I saw a tweet here, I want to hear your comments on, it's from your keynote, someone retweeted, "managing over 100,000 clusters on ACS, hashtag Fargate," integrated into ECS, your hashtag, open, ADM's open. What is that hundred thousand number. Is that the total number, is that an example? On elastic container service, what does that mean? >> So ECS is a very large scale, multi-tenant container operation service that we've had for several years. It's in production, if you compare it to Kubernetes it's running much larger clusters, and it's been running at production-grade for longer. So it's a little bit more robust and secure and all those kinds of things. So I think it's missing some Kubernetes features, and there's a few places where we want to bring in capabilities from Kubernetes and make ECS a better experience for people. Think of Kubernetes as some what optimized for the developer experience, and ECS for more the operations experience, and we're trying to bring all this together. It is operating over a hundred thousand clusters of containers, over a hundred thousand clusters. And I think the other number was hundreds of millions of new containers are launched every week, or something like that. I think it was hundreds of millions a week. So, it's a very large scale system that is already deployed, and we're running some extremely large customers on, like Expedia and Macbook. Macbook ... Mac Box. Some of these people are running tens of thousands of containers in production as a single, we have single clusters in the tens of thousands range. So it's a different beast, right? And it meets a certain need, and we're going to evolve it forwards, and Kubernetes is serving a very different purpose. If you look at our data science space, if you want exactly the same Hadoop thing, you can get that on prem, you can run EMR. But we have Athena and Red Shift and all these other ways that are more native to the way we think, where we can go iterate and build something very specific to AWS, so you blend these two together and it depends on what you're trying to achieve. >> Well Adrian, congratulations on a great opportunity, I think the world is excited to have you in your role, if you could clarify and just put the narrative around, what's actually happening in AWS, what's been happening, and what you guys are going to do forward. I'll give you the last minute to let folks know what your job is, what your objective is, what you're looking for to hire, and your philosophy in the open source for AWS. >> I think there's a couple of other projects, and we've talked, this is really all about containers. The other two key project areas that we've been looking at are deep learning frameworks, since all of the deep learning frameworks are open source. A lot of Kubernetes people are using it to run GPUs and do that kind of stuff. So Apache MXNet is another focus on my team. It went into the incubation phase last January, we're walking it through, helping it on its way. It's something where we're 30, 40% of that project is AWS contribution. So we're not dominating it, but we're one of its main sponsors, and we're working with other companies. There's joint work with, it's lots of open source projects around here. We're working with Microsoft on Gluon, we're working with Facebook and Microsoft on Onyx which is an open URL network exchange. There's a whole lot of things going on here. And I have somebody on my team who hasn't started yet, can't tell you who it is, but they're starting pretty soon, who's going to be focusing on that open source, deep learning AI space. And the final area I think is interesting is IOT, serverless, Edge, that whole space. One announcement recently is free AltOS. So again, we sort of acquired the founder of this thing, this free real-time operating system. Everything you have, you probably personally own hundreds of instances of this without knowing it, it's in everything. Just about every little thing that sits there, that runs itself, every light bulb, probably, in your house that has a processor in it, those are all free AltOS. So it's incredibly pervasive, and we did an open source announcement last week where we switched its license to be a pure MIT license, to be more friendly for the community, and announced an Amazon version of it with better Amazon integration, but also some upgrades to the open source version. So, again, we're pushing an open source platform, strategy, in the embedded and IOT space as well. >> And enabling people to build great software, take the software engineering hassles out for the application developers, while giving the software engineers more engineering opportunities to create some good stuff. Thanks for coming on The Cube and congratulations on your continued success, and looking forward to following up on the Amazon Web Services open source collaboration, contribution, and of course, innovation. The Cube doing it's part here with its open source content, three days of coverage of CloudNativeCon and KubeCon. It's our second day, I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman, we'll be back with more live coverage in Austin, Texas, after this short break. >> Offscreen: Thank you.

(upbeat music) >> Narrator: Live from Los Angeles it's The Cube covering Open Source Summit North America 2017. Brought to you by the Lennox Foundation and Red Hat. >> Welcome back, everyone. Live in Los Angeles for The Cube's exclusive coverage of the Open Source Summit North America. I'm John Furrier, your host, with my co-host, Stu Miniman. Our next guest is Elaine Yeung, @egsy on Twitter, check her out. Student at Holberton School? >> At Holberton School. >> Holberton School. >> And that's in San Francisco? >> I'm like reffing the school right here. (laughs) >> Looking good. You look great, so. Open Source is a new generation. It's going to go from 64 million libraries to 400 million by 2026. New developers are coming in. It's a whole new vibe. >> Elaine: Right. >> What's your take on this, looking at this industry right now? Looking at all this old, the old guard, the new guard's coming in, a lot of cool things happening. Apple's new ARKit was announced today. You saw VR and ARs booming, multimedia. >> Elaine: Got that newer home button. Right, like I-- >> It's just killer stuff happening. >> Stu: (laughs) >> I mean, one of the reason why I wanted to go into tech, and this is why I, like, when I told them that I applied to Holberton School, was that I really think at whatever next social revolution we have, technology is going to be somehow interval to it. It's probably not even, like, an existing technology right now. And, as someone who's just, like, social justice-minded, I wanted to be able to contribute in that way, so. >> John: Yeah. >> And develop a skillset that way. >> Well, we saw the keynote, Christine Corbett Moran, was talking really hardcore about code driving culture. This is happening. >> Elaine: Right. So this is not, like, you know, maybe going to happen, we're starting to see it. We're starting to see the culture being shaped by code. And notions of ruling classes and elites potentially becoming democratized 100% because now software, the guys and gals doing it are acting on it and they have a mindset-- >> Elaine: Right. >> That come from a community. So this is interesting dynamic. As you look at that, do you think that's closer to reality? Where in your mind's eye do you see it? 'Cause you're in the front lines. You're young, a student, you're immersed in that, in all the action. I wish I was in your position and all these great AI libraries. You got TensorFlow from Google, you have all this goodness-- >> Elaine: Right. >> Kind of coming in, I mean-- >> So you're, so let me make sure I am hearing your question right. So, you're asking, like, how do I feel about the democratization of, like, educ-- >> John: Yeah, yeah. Do you feel it? Are you there? Is it happening faster? >> Well, I mean, things are happening faster. I mean, I didn't have any idea of, like, how to use a terminal before January. I didn't know, like, I didn't know my way around Lennox or GitHub, or how to push a commit, (laughs) until I started at Holberton School, so. In that sense, I'm actually experiencing this democratization of-- >> John: Yeah. >> Of education. The whole, like, reason I'm able to go to this school is because they actually invest in the students first, and we don't have to pay tuition when we enroll. It's only after we are hired or actually, until we have a job, and then we do an income-share agreement. So, like, it's really-- >> John: That's cool. >> It's really cool to have, like, a school where they're basically saying, like, "We trust in the education that we're going to give you "so strongly that you're not going to pay up front. >> John: Yeah. >> "Because we know you're going to get a solid job and "you'll pay us at that point-- >> John: Takes a lot of pressure off, too. >> Yeah. >> John: 'Cause then you don't have to worry about that overhang. >> Exactly! I wrote about that in my essay as well. Yeah, just, like because who wants to, like, worry about student debt, like, while you're studying? So, now I can fully focus on learning C, learning Python (laughs) (mumbles) and stuff. >> Alright, what's the coolest thing that you've done, that's cool, that you've gotten, like, motivated on 'cause you're getting your hands dirty, you get the addiction. >> Stu: (laughs) >> Take us through the day in the life of like, "Wow, this is a killer." >> Elaine: I don't know. Normally, (laughs) I'm just kind of a cool person, so I feel like everything I-- no, no. (laughs) >> John: That's a good, that's the best answer we heard. >> (laughs) Okay, so we had a battle, a rap battle, at my school of programming languages. And so, I wrote a rap about Bash scripts and (laughs) that is somewhere on the internet. And, I'm pretty sure that's, like, one of the coolest things. And actually, coming out here, one of my school leaders, Sylvain, he told me, he was like, "You should actually put that, "like, pretty, like, front and center on your "like, LinkedIn." Or whatever, my profile. And what was cool, was when I meet Linus yesterday, someone who had seen my rap was there and it's almost like it was, like, set up because he was like, "Oh, are you the one "that was rapping Bash?" And, I was like, "Well, why yes, that was me." (laughs) >> John: (laughs) >> And then Linus said it was like, what did he say? He was like, "Oh, that's like Weird Al level." Like, just the fact that I would make up a rap about Bash Scripts. (laughs) >> John: That's so cool. So, is that on your Twitter handle? Can we find that on your Twitter handle? >> Yes, you can. I will-- >> Okay, E-G-S-Y. >> Yes. >> So, Elaine, you won an award to be able to come to this show. What's your take been on the show so far? What was exciting about you? And, what's your experience been so far? >> To come to the Summit. >> Stu: Yeah. >> Well, so, when I was in education as a dean, we did a lot of backwards planning. And so, I think for me, like, that's just sort of (claps hands). I was looking into the future, and I knew that in October I would need to, like, start looking for an internship. And so, one of my hopes coming out here was that I would be able to expand my network. And so, like that has been already, like that has happened like more than I even expected in terms of being able to meet new people, come out here and just, like, learn new things, but also just like hear from all these, everyone's experience in the industry. Everyone's been just super awesome (laughs) and super positive here. >> Yeah. We usually find, especially at the Open Source shows, almost everyone's hiring. You know, there's huge demand for software developers. Maybe tell us a little bit about Holberton school, you know, and how they're helping, you know, ramp people up and be ready for kind of this world? >> Yeah. So, it's a two-year higher education alternative, and it is nine months of programming. So, we do, and that's split up into three months low-level, so we actually we did C, where we, you know, programmed our own shell, we programmed printf. Then after that we followed with high-levels. So we studied Python, and now we're in our CIS Admin track. So we're finishing out the last three months. And, like, throughout it there's been a little bit, like, intermix. Like, we did binary trees a couple weeks ago, and so that was back in C. And so, I love it when they're, like, throwing, like, C at us when we've been doing Python for a couple weeks, and I'm like, "Dammit, I have to put semicolons (laughs) >> John: (laughs) >> "And start compiling. "Why do we have to compile this?" Oh, anyway, so, offtrack. Okay, so after those nine months, and then it's a six month internship, and after that it's nine months of specialization. And so there's different spec-- you can specialize in high-level, low-level, they'll work with you in whatever you, whatever the student, their interests are in. And you can do that either full-time student or do it part-time. Which most of the students that are in the first batch that started in January 2016, they're, most of them are, like, still working, are still working, and then they're doing their nine month specialization as, like, part-time students. >> Final question for you, Elaine. Share your personal thoughts on, as you're immersed in the coding and learning, you see the community, you meet some great people here, network expanding, what are you excited about going forward? As you look out there, as you finish it up and getting involved, what's exciting to you in the world ahead of you? What do you think you're going to jump into? What's popping out and revealing itself to you? >> I think coming to the conference and hearing Jim speak about just how diversity is important and also hearing from multiple speakers and sessions about the importance of collaboration and contributions, I just feel like Lennox and Open Source, this whole movement is just a really, it's a step in the right direction, I believe. And it's just, I think the recognition that by being diverse that we are going to be stronger for it, that is super exciting to me. >> John: Yeah. >> Yeah, and I just hope to be able to-- >> John: Yeah (mumbles) >> I mean, I know I'm going to be able to add to that soon. (laughs) >> Well, you certainly are. Thanks for coming on The Cube. Congratulations on your success. Thanks for coming, appreciate it. >> Elaine: Thank you, thank you. >> And this is The Cube coverage, live in LA, for Open Source Summit North America. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman. More live coverage after this short break. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: Live from San Francisco. It's theCUBE! Covering DevNet Create 2017. Brought to you by Cisco. (tech music) >> Okay, welcome back everyone. We are here, live in San Francisco, for theCUBE's exclusive two-day coverage of Cisco system's new inaugural event called DevNet Create. An extension and an augmentation of DevNet. Their classic Cisco Developer Program. Again, augmenting and creating some intelligence that's AI augmented intelligence. I'm John Furrier. Peter Burris bringing a lot of intelligence here. With Craig McLuckie who's the founder and CEO of Heptio. Cube alumni. Been on many times. Guru in the cloud. Great the see you Craig. Thanks for coming on. >> Thanks so much for having me back on. >> Thanks for coming in. More importantly about this event is really the community extension for Cisco. Cisco ingratiating into the community of open source and developers in a big way. But not like brute force. It's a very humble event. Small event in San Francisco. Really you see the connection of app dynamics with the networking. And again, developers want DevOps. They want infrastructure as code. They want the scale of the internet. That's the purpose, your thoughts on this event? >> Yeah, so far I've been very impressed. It feels like a pretty authentic developer orientated event. The sessions so far have been quite accessible. And generally pretty well thought through. I think Cisco is doing a very great job of actually doing exactly what you're saying. Which is creating an event that's relevant to the developer that isn't necessarily tied to Cisco's interest. And establishing themselves in terms of thought leadership and actually creating a narrative that works with the community. >> Yea. One of the thoughts that we're talking about in conversations that we're seeing on the Cube. Especially this year. Is really the two waves that are clearly emerging in the digital transformation is cloud and data. And cloud being, you know, public cloud. Private cloud, hybrid. Essentially large scale resource data creating value. And the application developers really taking advantage of that. And you can't look further than containers and Kubernetes. As a key thread to bridging these two worlds of pretty much unlimited capacity in terms of compute. Obviously pricing. Business models and operational models are different by vendor. But the emergence of multi cloud points to, to me. The future. I personally don't think it's ready for primetime. But certainly I would say directionally correct. But hybrid clouds is a reality. So developers are going to have on prim and off prim. But how do they connect it all? How do you orchestrate it all? This is a core channel and I know your working on a FDO. And it's near and dear to your heart. You thought of the state of the industry with respect that Kubernetes, containers. And how app developers can get that freedom without being a networking guru. Really truly getting infrastructures code without a lot of, well I got to run this with that. I just want seamless cross connection between applications. >> Yeah, I think we're definately... You know a couple of things are true. One is, it's been spectacular to see the amount of progress we've made in this community in the past three years. Going from a situation where we're just seeing the spark of awareness around containers. As a frameworks packaging deploy applications. You know, into an environment to become rarely something that most every organization out there is looking at. To solve both difficult longstanding challenges in the active space. But also to open up this wall of multi cloud. To create opportunities for people to move their compute around. In this increasingly androgynous world. And its been interesting, you know, last year. To see a growing awareness of the importance of multi cloud. I think there's two things that have been really motivating that from my side. You know, one is being and understanding that it really isn't a one horse race anymore. We're really starting to see a surge in effort from both Microsoft and Google. And that's generating a lot of relevance for folks who want to run in this multi cloud world. And the second thing we start to see is a legitimate interest in this edge computing phenomenon. As organizations are aware of the implications of increasing volumes of data showing up in their networks. Showing up on premises. Showing up in these environments. Having the flexibility to move compute into those. Cause as you can see it's huge. And so obviously I'm a little bit bias. I think Kubernetes and containers are an amazing platform. I rarely, you know, tap into both of these growing sort of four points awareness. One is being able to create a natural compute fabric that decouples your applications and services from the cloud provider. That allows you to look at the cloud provider as both an infrastructure offering. But also to judiciously pull through services that are special that you might need. But then also having the flexibility to offer up your own services and then move that around from environment to environment. It's been quite wonderful the watch that start to take shape. >> Craig you've also got some good insight into architecture. You actually know the cloud game. You worked at Google. And Google's got some great stuff. Got Tensorflow coming out. You're seeing kind of that going on. And I would agree with you. It's not a one horse race anymore. Absolutely. However there's a lot of pressure on the businesses. The customer impact to deploy in this digital transformation. Is, pressure cooker's hotter than ever. >> Absolutely. >> I mean Ford just fired its CEO. Stocks down 39%. He's two years into his transformation. How the hell does a CXO transform their business if they've got a gun to their head? What's your advice for the guys out there that don't want to be the next Mark Field's? Who have to essentially run as fast as they can without disrupting operations and also try to perform top line revenue. Which is isn't easy apps. I mean it's a tough spot. Your thoughts? >> No, it is really interesting. You know, I tend to think about IT as this kind of rarely interesting optimization problem. The thing you try to maximize is velocity. You have to be able to use technology to solve core organizational problems. You have to be able to point technology to business. You have to be able to move from this world. Where technology was being delivered in a traditional products fashion. To the world where technology is being delivered as a service. If you look at Tesla. Tesla's no longer a car that is just a standard car. It's actually almost a service. Like the technology that's being deployed into the Tesla evolves day to day. The car's becoming better and richer and more amazing. And so CIO's have to start looking at this as an optimization problem. Where you want to optimize for velocity. You have to maintain an effective posture around risk management. And then, inside that you want to achieve an acceptable SLA. This is the really interesting thing is that a lot of folks are looking for like four nines, five nines, six nines, whatever crazy availability you're looking at. Except that the higher you're pushing your availability. The further back you have to pull on your velocity. And so for me, the most exciting thing. In terms of... I have these conversations with CIO's that are looking to make transform into this new world. It's helping them understand this balance between code velocity and availability, reliability. The underlying systems. Understand the role that some of these modern automated orchestration systems are playing. As a way to drive up your ability to move far. So without necessarily driving down your general service availability. And then, looking at ways to transform the organization itself. From being a technology organization that is throwing tech over the fence. To a much more nimble sort of smaller teams that are delivering up technology as a sort of services. It's an amazing time to be a part of this transformation. >> So we think... You've done a lot of research on this. Let's see if I can find your statements in there and just get a sense of how you think about these things. Is that at the end of the day. A business institutionalizer's work around the assets that are core to its mission. And John and I were talking about this before hand. In the old days, the biggest asset, most important asset. Was the hardware. So you institutionalize the work around the hardware. And then it became your application portfolio. Whether it was SCP or something else. And you institutionalize work around that. Today, our observation. Here's the test. Is that the asset that's most important is your data. And you're going to reinstitutionalize work around the data. And how you use that data and imply that data to a lot of different business activities. What do you think about that? Is data becoming that kind of central asset around which IT and hopefully even the digital business gets reinstitutionalized along the lines of what you're saying? >> Yes, absolutely. I think it's really important to understand that. There's really two components to this. You know, IT is information technology. It is literally just the process of making sense of data and information. >> Right. >> And presenting it in a way that you can make effective business decisions. >> So we're going back to our roots in many respects. >> Right. >> DP, data processing. (laughing) >> But it's also... It's also about experience. >> It's what? >> It's also about creating an experience. >> Right. >> For the customers. So I think at the heart of it this IT transformation is around two things. It's allowing modern businesses to generate a better understanding of the customer. Though the leverage use of data. >> Based on customer created data. >> Based on customer created data and observable information about the customers. And then it's based on experience. It's using that the create in crafts a richer, more satisfying better experience for the underlying customer. And obviously data is central to both of those. But the experiential side of it has a lot more than. You can't look at that purely as a data processing thing. There's a sort of mechanism that you need to do to create those wonderful experiences. And you can start leaning into things like artificial intelligence as a way to drive and prove experiences. You can lean into U Form Factors and sort of new ways to connect customers with their businesses. As a way to try that experience. And you know, the products themselves are becoming increasingly evolved. Like, I've certainly seen recently and talking to auto manufacturers. Is owning awareness that the car itself has to be creating a ongoing and sort of richer and more interesting experience. It has to be more interestingly tied to the customer. >> So software and data are connecting? >> So software and data are coming together. And software's allowing businesses to gain insight. And then you know, the data is allowing the software to create a more relevant experiences. You can't really separate those two things. >> Well software is data. At the end of the day software is data. (laughing) You go back to Yobach Deterian, that's what he said many years ago. But bring us back to Heptio for a second. So if you take a look at Kubernetes. And we agree Kubernetes. You know, in the last three months the Cube's had what, fifty thousand shows or something like that. (laughing) And we got a lot of very, very bright guests on it. >> Feels like it. >> And we've had... And Kubernetes has been a consistent theme. Containers are important. These technologies from managing and orchestrating these containers is going to be especially important. And Kubernetes is right in the mix. But Kubernetes kind of looks like an infrastructure almost a... I don't want to say a nerd. But you know what I mean? It's just not.. Heptio is taking it.. Is how you use that a little bit better. And what should you do with some of these concepts of design? Which is the one thing you didn't mention when you started talking about this stuff. How does design? Experience plus design come into play here? Especially through a tool set like Heptio? >> Oh, it's interesting. You know, at the end of the day I think there's two components to the design. There's designing for the users. You know, honestly I want Kubernetes to be the most boring thing in the world. At the end of the day I want a business to not think about their infrastructure. Like it just needs to fade into the background and become this invisible substrate around which they live. >> Yeah-- >> The water in which they swim. >> I've said for years that the value of infrastructures immensely inversely proportional to the reach to which anybody know anything about it. >> Yes. Absolutely and so. For me, you know, my interest in Kubernetes. I don't want to necessarily show up and fade into the full brain of the developers who are using the technology. I want to fend in the background. I want them to be focused on the design activities that are helping them do their work and sort of succeed and create great outcomes. And so if I had one complaint about Kubernetes right now. It's too interesting. >> Too interesting? >> It's too interesting. We need to make it... >> Boring. >> Boring. (laughing) >> We need to like... >> Ubiquitous. Well no, I think a lot of people are working on it. Cause I think they've identified it as an opportunity to connect things and make it easier. So there's work being done. People are funding companies. >> Absolutely. >> So exciting is a relative term. >> So no, there's a lot of work to be done. >> What's the biggest challenges technically Kubernetes has? If it's going to be boring, what has to happen to make it boring? >> So it's interesting. You know, I think there's a number of things that need to be done. You know, one of which is that. When we were building Kubernetes we created this configuration sintex. Which is sort of Yaumul. It's effectively a simple seralisation of the underlying Kubernetes API's. And for new users of the system. The first thing they encounters is what we call the wall of Yaumul. Where all the Yaumul's ahead. Like it's a very daunting experience. And so we're thinking hard about ways to change that. So you create a much ore elegant experience. Have much better tooling. Have the experience of editing that sort of fade into the background of the developers functions. And then, to your earlier point about design. You know, making it really easy to use some additional concepts that other people have put forward. Creating higher degrees of usability and discoverabililty for other pieces. Through projects like what Microsoft's been doing with the Helm project is really important as well. So you can expect to see us make a significant down payment on trying to... You know Heptio make a significant down payment on trying to address the problem. >> Well, I'm certainly going to be following you. We got a lot of the Lennox Foundation. The CNCF's got out there. Final question for you is. Thoughts on multi cloud? What's your definition of multi cloud? What does it mean? We kind of commented earlier because certainly there's not a winner take all cloud game. There's going to be multiple cloud players. There might be even specialty clouds. As things get boring in that abstractional layer gets simplified with developer friendly interfaces. Clouds will emerge as resource pools. But what I multi cloud mean for you? What's the customer... How should they look at what multi cloud is and what is the path to multi cloud? >> Right. So you know, multi cloud. It's starts with nutragenetity. It starts with the ability to run your workloads in a variety of environments. So nutragenetity, first of all, surrounds the physical infrastructure provider. Not being tied into a single provider model. No one necessarily wants to move back to the wall of IBM circuit 1985. Where you're locked into a single provider and hopefully nobody gets fired for buying that provider. But the problem with it is it rarely softens the amount of intervention in a sea around that. You have these single points of intervention. The second thing that I think about is nutragenetity in terms of locality. The ability to create something that runs both at the network edge. It will perform for the computing sort of realm as Cisco has coined the term. In a data center location that is a potential customer. Sort of in one of their localities. Or in a public cloud. It's going to be about multi-regional support. Being able to pull an application that you can run in the US geography and then in other regions that have regulated requirements around data mobility. So we have to handle all of those things. And inside that, I think there's kind of three key attributes of evolving sophistication that people need to think about. The first is the cloud is just solving an infrastructure outsourcing problem. And that's the most sort of simplistic way of looking at it. Second thing about cloud is. It's a way to consume a broad array of interesting technologies as a service. Right. So, it could be a simple BM but it could also be a database or something else. It's moving the wall from this situation where that thing that you can see as a service is being provisioned by a ticket. Where there's an operator at the end of it. To a world where it's being provisioned by an API. And the final piece of it is being able to move your own infrastructure to that services realm. Your own technologies. The things that are running your business. And deliver them as a service into your own wall. And so for me, multi cloud means hitting that level of nutragenetity and then being able to provision arbitrary services at the end of the API. And then deliver your own sort of services in the same fabric. >> Craig McLuckie, founder and CEO of Heptio. Former Google Cloud leader. Certainly subject matter expert. Thanks for coming on. Great to see you again. >> Thank you for your time. >> I appreciate it. >> Appreciate it. Cube alumni. Always laying down the epic knowledge here inside the Cube. Bringing you the inaugural coverage of Cisco's DevNetCreate. Developer conference as they go out into the open source community. With the full force of Cisco. Of course the Cube's here. I'm John Furrier with Peter Burris. Stay with us for more coverage after this short break. (tech music) >> Hi I'm April Mitchell and I'm the Senior Director of Strategy & Planning for Cisco DevNet.

>> Narrator: It's The Cube covering Sapphire Now 2017. Brought to you by S.A.P. Cloud Platform and Honna Interprise Cloud. >> Hello there, and welcome to The Cube conversation here in Palo Alto Studios, I'm John Furrier with The Cube, and we have a special guest here. Susie Wee, who's the vice president and CTO of DevNet at Cisco Systems for a Cube conversation around what's happening in cloud, and really some of the most important trends that are generating out of a new event that she's starting called DevNet Creative, which The Cube will be there. Susie, welcome to this Cube conversation. >> Hi, John. Thanks, it's great to be here. >> So, you were a pioneer within Cisco. You know, superstar technologist, CTO. You helped really put the Cisco DevNet Developer program together. Which as been a huge success. Congratulations. >> Thank you. >> And that's been, you know, Cisco has a big community of geeks. They're super smart. They like to surf the web and learn, and develop new stuff on Cisco, but there's also a whole nother world, and you created an event called DevNet Create as a new initiative. A new pioneering effort. >> Absolutely. >> Why a new event? What's the big news here? >> It's really interesting. I think that what's going on is in the world of, kind of, the infrastructure, right? So the infrastructure has our networking, our compute, our storage, and all of that is changing in that it's becoming programmable, and so once it's programmable, you're like, "What?" My infrastructure has APIs. Once it has APIs, you can do things like DevOps, right? You can start to do things like really have good flexibility with how you deploy your applications, you can get much more rapid deployment of apps, and you can get, just, fundamentally, different, and improved applications. So, the big thing that's going on is that there's this huge industry transformation in front of us, and the transformation is in how applications meet infrastructure, and this has happened as applications go to the cloud, then how applications meet the cloud, apps are changing, right? Then as the infrastructure becomes programmable, there's APIs into it, so there's this really kind of fresh ground that's ahead of us, and we can make the most of this, and that's what DevNet Create is all about. >> You know, people always ask me, this is our eighth year doing The Cube, "John, you and Dave do such a good job with The Cube." "You always pick the events that are going to be good." (laughter) We did some when we were first on, I do parole, I mean, with Cloud Air, and nobody had heard of Cloud Air. We can sniff the trends out, and to me, I think you're onto something really big here, and this is why I'm excited to bring The Cube to your event. I know it's small, it's inaugural, and it's very community-oriented, but I think you guys are on fault line of a massive shift, and I think you're on the right side of this, and I think the app dynamics acquisition that Cisco did points to some of the things that going to give Cisco, I think, a big lift, and that is, by looking at the plumbing as being automated, certainly relevant, that's not going away, but as you move up the stack, there's going to be the need for rapid, rapid application deployment. >> Susie Wee: Absolutely. >> Conceive, build, ship in minutes. It could be automated with bots and AI and whatnot, so this is the trend. Talk about that dynamic, 'cause that requires a fundamental rethinking and reimagining of the Cloud, security, how packets move. >> Susie Wee: Absolutely. >> Do you agree with that, and obviously, you're running the event, so you probably have some bias there, but more importantly, this big trend. >> Yeah, absolutely. So, kind of the applications themselves, we take apps for granted these days, and we've had applications forever, right? But the applications are how people interact with the system, with the Cloud, with all the surfaces that they use everyday, so we know that everyone's lives have been transformed with apps, and then we also know that the Cloud has been huge. You know, work loads are moving with the Cloud. The Cloud has instant deployment, global resources, again, big stuff there as well, but that's going to shift again, right? So what happens is now that the Cloud is as awesome as it is, now that applications are great as they are, we're going to go to this next generation where the applications get even better, the Cloud gets even better, the way they meet, and therefore, the surfaces that people use get better. Let's have some examples of like, what could be better? Well, now that you have things like app dynamics, you can start to get information from your applications in the infrastructure that give you business insights, so let's say that you have your application running, and then you know how many times different APIs have been called. You know what parts of your systems, or your applications, are called the most. You know who's using them. You know how often they're being used, by whom, and so on. What order are they being used? All of this can start to give you business insight, so then you say, oh, the infrastructure's not just about delivering, compute, network, and storage, it's also about giving the insights into how people are using my stuff, so I can get business insights all of a sudden, and then it's a whole new world. >> Talk about how you got here, and your journey with Cisco being creating the DevNet and now DevNet Create, 'cause I think there's some trends in the industry, and we're going to be covering Sapphire, which is SAP's big show coming up in Orlando, and Cisco has some announcements, I know, I was brief under NDA on that so I really can't talk about it right now, but I do know for a fact it's going to be some significant innovations that's Cisco's bringing to the table, and they're an app provider. Now, they're older version, they're the big ERP, and the big software and framewares, and they announced Cloud Native with iOS development. This notion of, like a new breed of developers is not a mutually exclusive argument against IT, it's just the continuation. There's a dynamic going on between software developments and apps, and not only just on the business model side, but actually, technically. >> Yeah, absolutely. There's a few different things. So, first of all, an app developers can, so we have something called Meraki. Meraki is our wireless access points, it was a big acquisition we did a few years ago, and you can think of, you know, wireless access points as giving you connectivity, wireless connectivity, but now imagine that it also, you have APIs into it and it tells you how many mobile devices are connected. Where are they connected from? And where are the mobile devices located? If someone comes into your store, how many people have been there before? And how many people is it their first time there? So, this is all stuff that you can get from your wireless access points and you can start to do really interesting stuff. I think any app developer would love to have that information of what can I get? Who's in my store, or who's in my venue? And the infrastructure gives you that. >> And you guys run most, if not all the networks in the world. An IOT device and your other things that's connected to a network, wireless or wired. >> Yeah. >> And packets are moving around, so you have that data. >> We have that data, yes. So, yes, exactly. Cisco infrastructure is everywhere. >> But it's been hard to expose that over the years because Cisco's always had this notion that we play at a certain part of the stack and now it's almost like finally, after decades of conversations, I know from folks I talked to at Cisco, let's move up the stack. There's always been this push that does Cisco move up the stack and how? >> Yes, and basically the way that the way and the reason that Cisco can move up the stack now is because the infrastructure is programmable, so now, our kit, the network, is programmable. Now there's analytics that are being built into the network as things are running around, so like having a programmable network, having analytics, where you can either gather information together on how applications and things are being used, or a key, and then how do we move up the stack is when we work with the ecosystem. We work with the community, is that we have a developer program like DevNet, which is why we founded it, is we're going to enable those app developers to come to the world of the enterprise, so right now, when you have an enterprise, you know, who can write an awesome IOT app for a building, or for a casino, or for a mall, or for a hotel, it's whoever that hotel works with. Whatever system integrator they have, and that's all amazing, 'cause, you know, your building's instrumented, >> Yeah, so you don't have to >> Susie Wee: You know where people are. >> It's a horizontal market of developers versus a specific Cisco community, which you have to nurture in and of itself. >> Exactly. >> In the course of business, guys who know how to handle the packets and the networking gear, and know someone who's, hey, I know Cisco's a network provider, a network supplier, I just don't want to have to go get a training certification to get some data; just give it to me. >> That's right, and so what we can do is say, hey, here's the APIs, go to developer.cisco.com. Everything's there. Everything's free. Here's learning labs on how to use the different APIs. Here's use cases. We actually have kit in the clouds so we have a sandbox that lets people use stuff. If you want to write an app for a contact center, 'cause we sell contacts in our stuff, we have a contact center that you can write and deploy your app on. You don't have to buy one to test it, right? So it's really interesting when these apps hit these places, which is that, you know, you need a contact center, well, we'll have one for you. >> Here's the hard question. I want to put you on the spot and bring the heat, if you will. You guys have been great in your own ecosystem. Dominant for Cisco as a company. As you move into this new ecosystem, because ecosystems are now business-model parts of public companies. Cloud Air just went public. Ortenwer's went public. Viewelsoft. A new class of new kind of open-source companies are going public. You guys are not necessarily an open-source company. You have open-source initiatives. You have to now embrace a new kind of ecosystem. >> Absolutely. >> Where's the progress on this? How early is it? 'Cause I think that's what DevNet created to me, and Cisco is now going into a new market and being proactive. >> Absolutely >> The question is are you ready? Do you have the chops? Where are you in the progress of that? (laughter) >> We're ready. Now, it's going to take work to work with the community to get there, but let me just go back 'cause when we first started DeveNet three years ago, we said, hey, are those networkers and those infrastructure guys, are they really ready for programmability and software? We didn't know, and then we had out first DevNet event, and it was packed. We're like, oh my gosh, these guys are so ready, and we didn't know that at the time, so we've made good progress there, but now that we're sitting there to work with the community, I think that I'm hoping that they're going to be embracing so we're certainly going to be open. We've actually opened up, kind of, the thinking within Cisco. We've done a lot of cultural change within Cisco because people have seen the success of DevNet and of the developers outside in the world who are actually jumping in and ready to embrace programmability. >> So, it's the old data. It started home. What you did. >> It started home. >> You did with your own core. >> And then used that to then build out. >> And you guys have apps, we know, again, we go to a lot of events. I've seen Cisco around in a lot of some of the open-stores events. I was at the Nix Foundation. You guys had some presence, but it seemed like a toe in the water. How are you guys going to go big in this? >> That's what changed, is actually Cisco has had some little developer efforts and a lot of heroics done by people within Cisco. Like, hey, I have this great product, I want to run a hackathon, right? So, we've had all of these heroic attempts, but until DevNet came along, we didn't have one centrally funded program with a mandate from the CEO to go and get that programmability and develop our ecosystem out there. That's what we had now for the last three years with DevNet, so now is we go to the next layer. You're right, we do have the people who are out working with the Cloud Native, working with OpenStock, working with OpenDaylight, working in the SDN, the Lennox foundation, and what we're doing is now bringing that to the next level. Again, adding the DevNet power, now that we have kind of established our base to really embrace this, so we hope that we're going to provide a lot more, kind of, foundation so that we can go big in these cases. >> How big is the cultural change within Cisco, just give some color without giving away too many trade secrets, but I know Cisco have, and a lot of my friends worked there I've known for years, from the beginning, I've been intimate with the company's culture, and they've been a case study of dominance, just the way their competitiveness has been, the products have been great. They run the networks, but now they have to move into this open source and the community world. Talk about some of the cultural changes. Any conversations? The CEO, when you talk to him, what's the conversation like there? >> I just met with our CEO, Chuck Robins, a couple weeks ago, updated him on our progress. He actually, he an John Chambers, together, helped found DevNet, so they understand the need for it, and they helped break down the barriers and create the funding and the organization to do it, and we had to do some re-orgs to get it going originally. >> It's not just lip service, they're putting their muscle behind it. >> They're putting their effort behind it and they're dedicated to it, and they understand it. Chuck is fully behind it. He sees the importance of programmability. He actually understands the applications meet infrastructure and the transformation that can happen there, so he is super supportive all the way. He sent me a text this morning and said, "Yeah, when is DevNet Create again?" >> Great. >> So he's on top of it. He knows what we're doing. >> We'll have him on The Cube for sure. >> Absolutely. >> So applications meets infrastructure is the DevOps ethos, and that really highlights your theme. >> It does. Now, some of the other cultural change that has happened is, for example, we have something called systems engineers in our sales force. So what happens is, in our sales force, we have technical folks. We have 6,000 sales engineers around the world. Systems engineers, and they understand the technical side. They're all taking DevNet training. They're taking DevNet learning labs. They're learning to code. They're learning to use our APIs and now, the other thing is that they're now running DevNet events around the world. These guys are not only getting trained, but they are running their own developer events, and so they've picked it all up. This is a transformation that, you know, we've partnered with them on, and that's really changed what they're doing and they're realizing that, hey, there's a conversation, like, we can finally have the assets to help out app developers, and the app developers, they do need help. People have been rating mobile apps for years. Not that many of them are making money, right? The question is how do you do good to those app developers? How do you bring those app developers into the enterprise? How do you take it and make sure that when you have the newest things, like... >> I've always said: feed it data. >> Feed it data. >> Data is a great life blood of applications. >> Absolutely, and so then the applications have data. Then you start to analyze it, you get the intelligence from it right there, and then all new insight. >> The automation around provisioning all that network plumbing is really, really hard and nuanced. If you can automate that away, developers will just have parade to your door. >> Absolutely. >> Alright, so, personal question. You've been very successful in building DevNet. Building developer programs is everyone's holy grail right now. There are people in companies: "We got to build a developer program." "Throw some money at it." They might have some lip service from the CEO or full commitment. What is the key to success. To get the companies and to actually conceive, to build, and deploy a successful developer program for a company? >> Yeah, that's a good question. I have to say that building the developer program is not as easy as you would think. I would think it should be easy, like get out there, go find some web service that's running free developer community stuff >> Someone creates a free code. >> Give 'em code, and that's it? But it's actually not that at all. There is actually a few things that have been key to what we've done. One of them, and actually, I spoke about this at the Evan's developer relations conference a few weeks back, but one of the keys there is just be entrepreneurial. You actually have to be an entrepreneur even if you're in a big company, then you especially have to be entrepreneurial. >> John: You got to hustle harder. >> And what I mean is you have to hustle hard and, with few resources, you have to show quick wins fast, and you have to make bets, right? What are the kind of things we do? Well, when we first started, we actually didn't have an organization. It was me. It was a couple rebels from different parts of the org who are like, we need this, and we were making proposals. >> Skull and crossbones kind of thing going on, yeah, big time. >> And we pretended that, hey, just pretend that we have a full-blown developer program. What would you do? What we did was, we went out there, we went made developer.cisco.com, we made one site, we brought all of the APIs into one place so that developers could access it, and it was just going through and kind of building that site, which is really hard in a big company like Cisco with APIs all over the place, and we just silently launched it, and then people started discovering it. Like, oh, all of Cisco's stuff is here. Holy Cow. That was one thing. >> Go humble early. Learned from Lennox himself. >> And we actually got kind of blasted on the Twittershpere because actually on our developer page, we had one section that was actually going to just product information and not having APIs in it, and so this guy was like, that's all product stuff. That's not about APIs, so we got blasted. We were like holy crap, he's right. We went, we changed it. Got rid of all that. >> That's agile. >> And fixed it and then he became our biggest fan, right? We changed and we learned from feedback from the community. >> You applied the entrepreneurial hustle. Hustle hard and make bets. >> Susie: Make bets. >> What's your big bet that your hustling now for, and I mean hustle in a good way, DevNet Create. What's your bet? >> Our first bet back then, big bet, was the DevNet's own at Cisco Live, was let's have a developer conference at Cisco Live. We have no idea if people are going to be interested, but let's just do it. So, we got second floor of Mosconi's. >> You're going big or going home. >> Yeah, exactly, so we like boom! Kind of got the same place they have Google IO and Dreamforce. We got the space, kind of created it, didn't know if anybody would come. It was jampacked. We're like, oh my God. John Chambers came by. He told his whole staff, like, you guys have to see what's happening. The DevNet zone's now the busiest part of Cisco Live. That was our big bet then, and fortunately it paid off, and I think that's what made us part of the fabric that let us continue on, but now our big bet is DevNet Create. It's about applications hitting the infrastructure and really ensuring that the infrastructure is giving benefit to app developers. >> John: Real benefit. >> Real benefit. It's not just for the sake of business, it's actually because, to me, there's a real inflection going on in the industry. Apps can just ride on top, and then just do whatever the infrastructure can provide for them, and that'll get us to one place, but once you really think about it, then you say, okay, where does the data for the apps need to sit? Oh my gosh, there's data sovereignty issues, so it can't just sit anywhere. How do we scale out? Like, when we scale out, and you could just say, oh yeah, just go buy it and Amazon, Google, someone else will take care of it for me. Well, some of it will, and you should absolutely use... We're using all of those >> The policy stuff. >> As well, but there's policy, there's, you know, so when you're really working to scale out and understand what's critical for your business, there's more that can be had, and then now you can go to the next level of where apps can get value added business insights from the network like what we were talking about before, and then, a really big thing is just when I kind of think forward to the world of IOT, and you say again, this building is now IOT enabled. This building has APIs. It's the infrastructure, and app developers would love to get access to that. >> Peter Barris and I were talking at The Cube about a new standard we want to see. All data should be presented in less than 100 milliseconds from any database. >> Susie: Nice, nice. >> That's a moon shot, but let's think about that. That's what we want. Okay, so final question. Congratulations on all your success, and I do believe that a trend is there, the question is when will it get there. Upcoming for DevNet Create, what do you hope to bring to the community? What do you want the community to look for and expect? And what will they see? >> Absolutely. What we want is, we hope that DevNet Create is just a catalyst for this to happen. For this transformation that's happening, and we want it to help drive things with the community in a faster way than if we just let it go itself. There's basically going to be two tracks at DevNet Create. One is on Cloud and DevOps, and the other is on IOT and apps. With Cloud, there's all these questions of how are we going to take monolithic legacy apps and turn them into micro surfaces? We have the world of containers. We have the world of container orchestration and everything there. That's all really hot stuff, but the way that we move this together, bring it into full production and get all of the apps really embracing that is key. What we're hoping will happen at DevNet Create is that the world of Cloud developers, the world of app developers, IOT developers will come together with those that are working in DevOps, those in the infrastructure to really understand what are the benefits that can happen across these layers? I'm not saying that every app developer needs to become an infrastructure developer, right? I'm not saying that every developer must be an operator, but there's benefits that can happen in the right way. Really, what we're hoping is that with DevNet Create, we can drive that conversation at the event itself and then continue with the ongoing community. >> And who are you targeting specifically to the event? Non-Cisco developers or Cisco developers with a plus, with a twist, or? >> Non-Cisco developers as well as some Cisco developers as well, but it's really about the industry. Where as when you go to a traditional DevNet event, you're going to be hearing all about Cisco APIs and Cisco products and how they play together in these solutions, but at DevNet Create, 90% or more of the talks are non-Cisco. We had a call for papers. I was really nervous when we had the call for papers and I was super relieved because we had great papers come in. Actually, the only problem is that we didn't have enough slots for the great papers. We even had to turn around some really good ones. Turn away some really good ones. We have a really strong agenda, and we actually said no to more Cisco talks because we wanted it from the ecosystem. We have people from Google, from Amazon, from Howdy. There's just lots of... >> And so will this be a Cisco event going forward? Or an industry event? Because there's a trend in the event world where people are going in for the big DreamForce and the big one show, big tent, zillion people, and then a series of industry shows around open-source communities with governance. Are you guys going to make this a Cisco managed show? Or thinking about opening it up to the community to manage? What's your thoughts on the vision of that? >> We're hoping to catalyze it. We will continue to have our other Cisco DevNet events that are really about the Cisco APIs themselves and really training and bringing along that core community, and we invite all the developers to attend that as well, but we really view DevNet Create to really be an event for the community. We'd be open to doing this with cosponsors and hosting it with others. >> So you're open. >> We're open. We're actually doing this with Lennox Foundation as well, so we have them involved. Many of them are on our advisory board. We are very open. We're actually working with SiliconANGLE and The Cube. We want to do it in the most open way as possible. >> As I said, we like to sniff out all the hot events. This is one inaugural event. I think it's really, really important because it really shows Cisco's commitment to open source in a way that's been toe in the waters in the past, like you said, little rebels in the organization doing their thing trying to get the word inside Cisco, but now with the cultural shift, I think you guys have it with app dynamics. There's a business path. I see a path there and I think the community only benefits. >> Absolutely, and if the community benefits, and our goal is to actually make our community and our developers successful. That's actually our only goal. For them to be successful in their careers and their business, and that will, in turn, make Cisco successful, but really, it's really about making the community successful. >> I mean if you think about the 5G end-to-end. I mean, end-to-end architectures are winning. We do a whole segment on end-to-end, but to make it end-to-end work that's not just one company, you'd need to have a strong developer community, and I think this is kind of where I see the event's importance is true network transformation and programmability. The ethos of DevOps needs to go to the next level so cars can program themselves. I mean, everything. 5G's coming too, so a lot of new stuff happening. >> Absolutely. I don't think any major industry transformation happened with one company alone. It really takes a community, right? Be it a community of product makers, a community of solutions providers, surface providers, and consumers themselves. This is really about the community. >> Susie, congratulations on all your success, and we're looking forward to seeing DevNet Create's inaugural opening in May. Appreciate it, and great to talk to you about some of the mega trends and your perspective on that. >> And thank you for helping to drive this vision and agenda. I think that we'll be able to do this together. >> Susie, with CTO at Cisco Systems, DevNet creator and pioneer with her team of rebels, now a full on group. Really talking about the app meets infrastructure total transformation enabling all the AI in terms of vehicles, smart cities, smart home. Thanks for joining us. This is a Cube conversation. I'm John Furrier and thanks for watching. (upbeat music)