>>Hey guys and girls, welcome back to Motor City, Lisa Martin here with John Furrier on the Cube's third day of coverage of Coon Cloud Native Con North America. John, we've had some great conversations over the last two and a half days. We've been talking about identity and security management as a critical need for enterprises within the cloud native space. We're gonna have another quick conversation >>On that. Yeah, we got a great segment coming up from someone who's been in the industry, a long time expert, running a great company. Now it's gonna be one of those pieces that fits into what we call super cloud. Others are calling cloud operating system. Some are calling just Cloud 2.0, 3.0. But there's definitely a major trend happening around how cloud is going Next generation. We've been covering it. So this segment should be >>Great. Let's unpack those trends. One of our alumni is back with us, O Rika Zi, co-founder and CEO of Aerio. Omri. Great to have you back on the >>Cube. Thank you. Great to be here. >>So identity move to the cloud, Access authorization did not talk to us about why you found it assertive, what you guys are doing and how you're flipping that script. >>Yeah, so back 15 years ago, I helped start Azure at Microsoft. You know, one of the first few folks that you know, really focused on enterprise services within the Azure family. And at the time I was working for the guy who ran all of Windows server and you know, active directory. He called it the linchpin workload for the Windows Server franchise, like big words. But what he meant was we had 95% market share and all of these new SAS applications like ServiceNow and you know, Workday and salesforce.com, they had to invent login and they had to invent access control. And so we were like, well, we're gonna lose it unless we figure out how to replace active directory. And that's how Azure Active Directory was born. And the first thing that we had to do as an industry was fix identity, right? Yeah. So, you know, we worked on things like oof Two and Open, Id Connect and SAML and Jot as an industry and now 15 years later, no one has to go build login if you don't want to, right? You have companies like Odd Zero and Okta and one login Ping ID that solve that problem solve single sign-on, on the web. But access Control hasn't really moved forward at all in the last 15 years. And so my co-founder and I who were both involved in the early beginnings of Azure Active directory, wanted to go back to that problem. And that problem is even bigger than identity and it's far from >>Solved. Yeah, this is huge. I think, you know, self-service has been a developer thing that's, everyone knows developer productivity, we've all experienced click sign in with your LinkedIn or Twitter or Google or Apple handle. So that's single sign on check. Now the security conversation kicks in. If you look at with this no perimeter and cloud, now you've got multi-cloud or super cloud on the horizon. You've got all kinds of opportunities to innovate on the security paradigm. I think this is kind of where I'm hearing the most conversation around access control as well as operationally eliminating a lot of potential problems. So there's one clean up the siloed or fragmented access and two streamlined for security. What's your reaction to that? Do you agree? And if not, where, where am I missing that? >>Yeah, absolutely. If you look at the life of an IT pro, you know, back in the two thousands they had, you know, l d or active directory, they add in one place to configure groups and they'd map users to groups. And groups typically corresponded to roles and business applications. And it was clunky, but life was pretty simple. And now they live in dozens or hundreds of different admin consoles. So misconfigurations are rampant and over provisioning is a real problem. If you look at zero trust and the principle of lease privilege, you know, all these applications have these course grained permissions. And so when you have a breach, and it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when you wanna limit the blast radius of you know what happened, and you can't do that unless you have fine grained access control. So all those, you know, all those reasons together are forcing us as an industry to come to terms with the fact that we really need to revisit access control and bring it to the age of cloud. >>You guys recently, just this week I saw the blog on Topaz. Congratulations. Thank you. Talk to us about what that is and some of the gaps that's gonna help sarto to fill for what's out there in the marketplace. >>Yeah, so right now there really isn't a way to go build fine grains policy based real time access control based on open source, right? We have the open policy agent, which is a great decision engine, but really optimized for infrastructure scenarios like Kubernetes admission control. And then on the other hand, you have this new, you know, generation of access control ideas. This model called relationship based access control that was popularized by Google Zanzibar system. So Zanzibar is how they do access control for Google Docs and Google Drive. If you've ever kind of looked at a Google Doc and you know you're a viewer or an owner or a commenter, Zanzibar is the system behind it. And so what we've done is we've married these two things together. We have a policy based system, OPPA based system, and at the same time we've brought together a directory, an embedded directory in Topaz that allows you to answer questions like, does this user have this permission on this object? And bringing it all together, making it open sources a real game changer from our perspective, real >>Game changer. That's good to hear. What are some of the key use cases that it's gonna help your customers address? >>So a lot of our customers really like the idea of policy based access management, but they don't know how to bring data to that decision engine. And so we basically have a, you know, a, a very opinionated way of how to model that data. So you import data out of your identity providers. So you connect us to Okta or oze or Azure, Azure Active directory. And so now you have the user data, you can define groups and then you can define, you know, your object hierarchy, your domain model. So let's say you have an applicant tracking system, you have nouns like job, you know, know job descriptions or candidates. And so you wanna model these things and you want to be able to say who has access to, you know, the candidates for this job, for example. Those are the kinds of rules that people can express really easily in Topaz and in assertive. >>What are some of the challenges that are happening right now that dissolve? What, what are you looking at to solve? Is it complexity, sprawl, logic problems? What's the main problem set you guys >>See? Yeah, so as organizations grow and they have more and more microservices, each one of these microservices does authorization differently. And so it's impossible to reason about the full surface area of, you know, permissions in your application. And more and more of these organizations are saying, You know what, we need a standard layer for this. So it's not just Google with Zanzibar, it's Intuit with Oddy, it's Carta with their own oddy system, it's Netflix, you know, it's Airbnb with heed. All of them are now talking about how they solve access control extracted into its own service to basically manage complexity and regain agility. The other thing is all about, you know, time to market and, and tco. >>So, so how do you work with those services? Do you replace them, you unify them? What is the approach that you're taking? >>So basically these organizations are saying, you know what? We want one access control service. We want all of our microservices to call that thing instead of having to roll out our own. And so we, you know, give you the guts for that service, right? Topaz is basically the way that you're gonna go implement an access control service without having to go build it the same way that you know, large companies like Airbnb or Google or, or a car to >>Have. What's the competition look like for you guys? I'm not really seeing a lot of competition out there. Are there competitors? Are there different approaches? What makes you different? >>Yeah, so I would say that, you know, the biggest competitor is roll your own. So a lot of these companies that find us, they say, We're sick and tired of investing 2, 3, 4 engineers, five engineers on this thing. You know, it's the gift that keeps on giving. We have to maintain this thing and so we can, we can use your solution at a fraction of the cost a, a fifth, a 10th of what it would cost us to maintain it locally. There are others like Sty for example, you know, they are in the space, but more in on the infrastructure side. So they solve the problem of Kubernetes submission control or things like that. So >>Rolling your own, there's a couple problems there. One is do they get all the corner cases who built a they still, it's a company. Exactly. It's heavy lifting, it's undifferentiated, you just gotta check the box. So probably will be not optimized. >>That's right. As Bezo says, only focus on the things that make your beer taste better. And access control is one of those things. It's part of your security, you know, posture, it's a critical thing to get right, but you know, I wanna work on access control, said no developer ever, right? So it's kind of like this boring, you know, like back office thing that you need to do. And so we give you the mechanisms to be able to build it securely and robustly. >>Do you have a, a customer story example that is one of your go-tos that really highlights how you're improving developer productivity? >>Yeah, so we have a couple of them actually. So there's the largest third party B2B marketplace in the us. Free retail. Instead of building their own, they actually brought in aer. And what they wanted to do with AER was be the authorization layer for both their externally facing applications as well as their internal apps. So basically every one of their applications now hooks up to AER to do authorization. They define users and groups and roles and permissions in one place and then every application can actually plug into that instead of having to roll out their own. >>I'd like to switch gears if you don't mind. I get first of all, great update on the company and progress. I'd like to get your thoughts on the cloud computing market. Obviously you were your legendary position, Azure, I mean look at the, look at the progress over the past few years. Just been spectacular from Microsoft and you set the table there. Amazon web service is still, you know, thundering away even though earnings came out, the market's kind of soft still. You know, you see the cloud hyperscalers just continuing to differentiate from software to chips. Yep. Across the board. So the hyperscalers kicking ass taking names, doing great Microsoft right up there. What's the future? Cuz you now have the conversation where, okay, we're calling it super cloud, somebody calling multi-cloud, somebody calling it distributed computing, whatever you wanna call it. The old is now new again, it just looks different as cloud becomes now the next computer industry, >>You got an operating system, you got applications, you got hardware, I mean it's all kind of playing out just on a massive global scale, but you got regions, you got all kinds of connected systems edge. What's your vision on how this plays out? Because things are starting to fall into place. Web assembly to me just points to, you know, app servers are coming back, middleware, Kubernetes containers, VMs are gonna still be there. So you got the progression. What's your, what's your take on this? How would you share, share your thoughts to a friend or the industry, the audience? So what's going on? What's, what's happening right now? What's, what's going on? >>Yeah, it's funny because you know, I remember doing this quite a few years ago with you probably in, you know, 2015 and we were talking about, back then we called it hybrid cloud, right? And it was a vision, but it is actually what's going on. It just took longer for it to get here, right? So back then, you know, the big debate was public cloud or private cloud and you know, back when we were, you know, talking about these ideas, you know, we said, well you know, some applications will always stay on-prem and some applications will move to the cloud. I was just talking to a big bank and they basically said, look, our stated objective now is to move everything we can to the public cloud and we still have a large private cloud investment that will never go away. And so now we have essentially this big operating system that can, you know, abstract all of this stuff. So we have developer platforms that can, you know, sit on top of all these different pieces of infrastructure and you know, kind of based on policy decide where these applications are gonna be scheduled. So, you know, the >>Operating schedule shows like an operating system function. >>Exactly. I mean like we now, we used to have schedulers for one CPU or you know, one box, then we had schedulers for, you know, kind of like a whole cluster and now we have schedulers across the world. >>Yeah. My final question before we kind of get run outta time is what's your thoughts on web assembly? Cuz that's getting a lot of hype here again to kind of look at this next evolution again that's lighter weight kind of feels like an app server kind of direction. What's your, what's your, it's hyped up now, what's your take on that? >>Yeah, it's interesting. I mean back, you know, what's, what's old is new again, right? So, you know, I remember back in the late nineties we got really excited about, you know, JVMs and you know, this notion of right once run anywhere and yeah, you know, I would say that web assembly provides a pretty exciting, you know, window into that where you can take the, you know, sandboxing technology from the JavaScript world, from the browser essentially. And you can, you know, compile an application down to web assembly and have it real, really truly portable. So, you know, we see for example, policies in our world, you know, with opa, one of the hottest things is to take these policies and can compile them to web assemblies so you can actually execute them at the edge, you know, wherever it is that you have a web assembly runtime. >>And so, you know, I was just talking to Scott over at Docker and you know, they're excited about kind of bringing Docker packaging, OCI packaging to web assemblies. So we're gonna see a convergence of all these technologies right now. They're kind of each, each of our, each of them are in a silo, but you know, like we'll see a lot of the patterns, like for example, OCI is gonna become the packaging format for web assemblies as it is becoming the packaging format for policies. So we did the same thing. We basically said, you know what, we want these policies to be packaged as OCI assembly so that you can sign them with cosign and bring the entire ecosystem of tools to bear on OCI packages. So convergence is I think what >>We're, and love, I love your attitude too because it's the open source community and the developers who are actually voting on the quote defacto standard. Yes. You know, if it doesn't work, right, know people know about it. Exactly. It's actually a great new production system. >>So great momentum going on to the press released earlier this week, clearly filling the gaps there that, that you and your, your co-founder saw a long time ago. What's next for the assertive business? Are you hiring? What's going on there? >>Yeah, we are really excited about launching commercially at the end of this year. So one of the things that we were, we wanted to do that we had a promise around and we delivered on our promise was open sourcing our edge authorizer. That was a huge thing for us. And we've now completed, you know, pretty much all the big pieces for AER and now it's time to commercially launch launch. We already have customers in production, you know, design partners, and you know, next year is gonna be the year to really drive commercialization. >>All right. We will be watching this space ery. Thank you so much for joining John and me on the keep. Great to have you back on the program. >>Thank you so much. It was a pleasure. >>Our pleasure as well For our guest and John Furrier, I'm Lisa Martin, you're watching The Cube Live. Michelle floor of Con Cloud Native Con 22. This is day three of our coverage. We will be back with more coverage after a short break. See that.

>> Announcer: From around the globe, it's theCUBE, with digital coverage of AWS re:Invent 2020. Special coverage sponsored by AWS Worldwide Public Sector. >> Welcome to theCUBE Virtual and our coverage of AWS re:Invent 2020, the specialized programming for Worldwide Public Sector. I'm Lisa Martin. I'm joined by Nick Speece the chief federal technologist for Snowflake. Nick, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you, Lisa. It's great to be here. >> Likewise, chief federal technologist, that's the first time I've ever heard of that title. Tell me a little bit about that. >> It's probably the last time you'll hear it. So chief federal technologist is really somebody in the company who is focused on bringing the needs of the federal government back to our corporate headquarters, making sure that the product as it's developed and evolves has the federal requirements in mind. >> Excellent. So the last couple of months for Snowflake big, biggest software IPO and software history your market cap right now is at 66 billion 515 data workloads running on Snowflake's platform every day 250 petabytes of data under management, a lot is going on. Let's talk about Snowflake. You guys operate only in the cloud, why was that decision made and how does that impact businesses analysis of data? >> Yeah, so great question and the answer is actually in the opening that you gave for us and thank you for that reinforcement. Snowflake can't exist anywhere, but the cloud. Technology over the last five to 10 years has really seen a move from what the cloud originally was, which was I have a virtual machine in my data center, I'm going to run it on your stuff not mine, into more comprehensive service offerings like Snowflake. We can't reach the kind of scale that Snowflake operates at every day and that our customers demand without the technology of clouds like AWS. The technology has to be there, the underlying and underpinning architecture has to be there, otherwise our customers get left in the dark and we can't can't have that. >> And especially today as data volumes are massively increasing and we know that that's only going to go up. We know that IT is only going to be more complex but when we talk to businesses in any industry the value of the data is in the insights the ability to extract that data in real time glean insights from it so that businesses can make data-based decisions that pivot their business, especially critical during the year that we have now known as 2020. Talk to me a little bit about though digging into your marketing material, everyone, there's all these terms, right, that everyone uses and you guys use single source of truth. What does it actually mean for single source, for stuff like? >> Yeah, so we talk about cloud, we talk about single source of truth and when you're looking at data problems, the problem and the solution are the same thing. A massive amount of data is a raw resource, that's all it is. And trying to refine that raw resource into something that is insightful or something that is useful to a business process is a challenge that every customer in every market, in every region undergoes. And how you overcome that is critical. And one of the primary focuses of Snowflake is to evolve the data cloud. Snowflake platform is the underlying technology for the data cloud but the data cloud is where we're going. And what I mean by data cloud. If you have a data set, your internal data, that is your truth, but it might not be the truth. So in Snowflake we encourage our customers to collaborate on data sets. For example, if you want to know how many people are living in a certain borough in New York City you could go around with a clicker and count everyone, or you could just ask the Census Bureau. That's the nature of the data cloud and what we're talking about here. Going to the subject matter experts who have the data that you need, using our marketplace, using our private exchanges, using our data sharing to build your own data cloud and become part of the next gen architecture for data sharing and collaboration, to get to the source of the truth, to make better decisions, to gain better insights. It's great to combine your data with enrich data from other sources, especially when it comes to making federal decisions and governance decisions. >> Absolutely that's critical. That the biggest challenge customers have is being able to sort through all that and find. I like how you put this as their single source of truth. Can you give us some examples of some federal agencies maybe even just anonymously that are using the power of Snowflake to do just that? >> Absolutely. We've got customers in the healthcare space and in some of the law enforcement spaces and especially in public education that are trying to increase the awareness of the folks that are subscribing to their services, for example, folks that are looking for healthcare help. If you're filing claims for a certain healthcare providers or certain care facilities, we want to make sure that those claims that are forwarded to those entities are legitimate, first of all, for example, if you're filing a claim for knee surgery in Florida, you probably didn't have one in California, three hours later. So those kinds of enforcement activities, and not just trying to do audits but also to benefit everybody who's receiving care. There's a lot of push now about genetic sequencing, DNA and RNA vaccination is huge with COVID-19, getting access to massive amounts of data to do analysis against and figure out the best approach, that's critical for where we go in the next 10 to 15 years in healthcare. Snowflake is very, very honored and happy to be propelling that move in the healthcare space. >> It is that's going to be absolutely critical but we're also seeing it, you know, everywhere else, such as for universities and education, suddenly this need, the last few months for real-time learning. Talk to me about data analysis. Can Snowflake help companies, you talked about enriching data sets so not just companies sources of data but additional data sets that they can add in and evaluate and analyze to make great decisions, but from a historical real-time perspective, talk to me how Snowflake helps with that data analysis. >> Yeah, sure. Right. So Snowflake in and of itself can do some analysis work. We've got some great visualization tools in our new UI that was released recently on public preview. So there's some analysis tools built into Snowflake but really where the value comes from is in taking your tools that you already use today and connecting it to a data source or platform that can wrangle that data, that can move that data through automated pipelines to give you a model view of that data that's beneficial. For example, data scientists and data engineers spend 80% of their time, and I know a lot of statistics are made up on the spot, that was not a promise, but trying to move this data through and refine it and build features to get to the point where you can ask a question is 80% of these very valuable professionals time. Shortening those timelines is what Snowflake really aims to do in the analysis space. We're not trying to replace the analysis tools that you use today, we work fine with all of them. The big difference is presenting them with enough data volume to give you real insights and eliminate bias as much as we can in data sets. >> What are some of the things that differentiates Snowflake from data warehouses and other folks in the market? >> Yeah. Great question. The big difference is Snowflake was built natively for the cloud. We weren't adapted to the cloud, we didn't adopt the cloud at some point in the future, Snowflake was built from scratch to be in the cloud. And since this is the appropriate show to mention it the primary difference between us is we were built to use object storage foundationally underneath our technology. And I know that sounds really nerdy and it is, but it adds a tremendous amount of value. If you think about how we used to collaborate 10 years ago we'd have a spreadsheet that if I open that spreadsheet for my share drive and you tried to open it at the same time, you'd get locked out. You're told you couldn't have it. And if tradition stays true I would probably be on vacation for two weeks. Contrast that now with the massive Google Doc platform and Office 365, object storage has changed the way that we collaborate on the same kinds of documents. Multiple people interacting with one thing at one time without contention, that's the reason why Snowflake has to operate in the cloud. We bring that same paradigm, multiple actors on a single object and give you that source of truth the truth that you absolutely need to make decisions. >> And that's critical these days as we know. We're in living in uncertain times and one of the things I think we can expect is the uncertainty to continue, but also for many industries people to stay remote or some big percentage for quite a while. So the ability to have those collaboration tools and be able to collaborate in real time is table stakes for so many companies. But when we're talking about some of the things going on this year, security, we can't not talk about security. You know, all these folks from home accessing corporate networks, you know, maybe not through VPNs or behind firewalls, the cloud is paramount to that. How does Snowflake address the security issue? >> Absolutely. So I'll start by saying our security is inherited from the wonderful security platform that AWS has underneath it. So we inherit all the security around data storage the EC Compute, all of the different entities and end points that AWS already secures Snowflake takes the same precautions. More than that, we've also built and rolled this access control to ensure that people are getting access only to the data that they should be getting access to, we recently implemented data masking as well, so certain roles are not able to see unmasked data, but they can still do queries that use the underlying data to filter. So there's a lot of different capabilities built in, encryption at rest, encryption in flight, AES-256 encryption keys used in a hierarchial model. These are phenomenal security architectures that are paramount to the security of the folks that are using our platform. Because we know at the end of the day the first day we have a leak in Snowflake is probably our last day in business. We got to be good at that which is why it's our top priority. >> I didn't, to ever talk about security as an inherited, I must be a dominant trait if we're going to be talking about, you know, genetics and chromosomes and mRNA and things like that. So walk me through last question, a government organization, or say they're an AWS customer or they want to start using Snowflake, what's that process? How do they go about doing that to leverage those inherited security capabilities that you talked about? >> Well, thankfully AWS has helped us put a FedRAMP moderate certified Snowflake region together in AWS, East commercial, so we're very happy to have a FedRAMP moderate region. They can access Snowflake through the AWS Marketplace or from Snowflake.com, you can start a trial in just a couple of minutes. Our security is built into all of our regions although the FedRAMP regions are specialized in some of the encryption technology we use, but we always, always always protect our users' data, regardless of where it is. >> You make it sound easy, I got to say. (laughing) >> That's because it is. (laughing) Thank you cloud. >> That's good. And well, that's good and it should be, especially because there's so much complexity and uncertainty everywhere else in the world right now. Last question for you. As I mentioned in the beginning, the biggest IPO in software history, just a couple of months ago during probably one of the most strangest time of any of us have ever, and our relatives ever witnessed, what can we expect from Snowflake in 2021? Are you going to bring all the good vibes that we all need? (laughing) >> Well, good vibes is our business model. You know, Snowflake is a phenomenal platform. We've had a ton of success driven by the success of our cloud provider partners, driven by the success of our wonderful customers. We have over 4,000 people using Snowflake now to great effect. You can look for more features, you can look for more functions, but really the evolution of the data cloud, our big push is to help our customers get into the data cloud, get the truth out of their data and make better decisions every day. And you'll see more of that from us as time continues. >> One more question I wanted to sneak in, how did you work with those customers to evolve the data cloud? What's that feedback loop like? >> It's, a lot of it comes down to silos that the customers have built up over years and years and years of operation. That's the first step. In Snowflake there isn't such thing really as a data silo there's data put into Snowflake, everything is unified, you can do queries across databases, that's the first thing. The second thing is browsing our data marketplace. It's just like an App Store for your phone but instead it's data sets and the data sets are published by the experts who know that material better than anyone. I mentioned earlier bringing in everything from housing evaluation data to COVID-19 data from California and Boston, bringing World Health Organization data, John Hopkins University data, joining that with the data that you already use today along with weather and population counts, the main thing here, the strategy is almost endless. More and more data sets are being published over every day. We have over a hundred contributors in the marketplace now. >> That's exciting that we have the technology and the power like this to help the world re, you know, recover from such a crazy time. It's nice to know that, that there was the power of that behind that, and the smart folks like you chief federal technologists, helping to fine tune that and really ensure that organizations across the government can maximize the value of data and find their single source of truth. Nick, it's been a blast having you on theCUBE. Thank you for joining me. >> Thank you for having me. >> For next piece, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE Virtual. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: From theCUBE Studios and Palo Alto in Boston. Connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is a CUBE conversation. >> Hey, welcome back everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're at our Palo Alto studio as kind of our on going leadership coverage of what's happening with the COVID crisis, and really looking out into our community to find experts who can provide tips and tricks, and some guidance as everyone is kind of charting these uncharted waters if you will. And we've got a great cube alarm in our database. He's a fantastic resourcer. We're excited to get him on. Share the information with you. We'd like to welcome once again, Darren Murph. He is the Head of Remote for GitLab. Darren, great to see you. >> Absolutely, great to be here. Thanks for having me. >> Absolutely, so thank you and. First off, we had you on earlier this year, back when things were normal, in kind of a regular review. Who knew that you would be at the center of the work-from-home universe just a few short months later. I mean, you've been doing this for ever. So it's kind of a wile old veteran of the work-from-home, or not even from home, just work from some place else. What are some top level things that you can share for people that have never experienced this before? >> Yeah, on the working front. If you're one of the people that are working from home, I think there's a couple of things you can do to help acclimate, make your world a little bit better. The first is to try to create some sort of separation between your work life and your personal life. Now if you have a home big enough that you can dedicate a workspace to being your office, that's going to help a lot. Help from a focus standpoint and just. You don't want those lines between work and life to blur too much, that's where isolation kicks in. That's where burnout kicks in. You want to do whatever you can to avoid. You got to remember, when you're not physically walking out of a office and disconnecting from work. You have to replicate that and recreate that. I actually recommend for people that used to have a commute and now they don't. I would actually black something in your calendar, whether that's cooking, cleaning, spending time with your family. Resting more, anything so that you ramp into your day very deliberately and ramp out of very deliberately. Now on the team leading front. I'm going to say it may feel a little counter intuitive, but the further your team is from you, the more distributed they are. The more you really need to let go and allow them to have mechanism for feeding back to you. Managers job in a remote setting switches from just being a pure director, you're actually being an unblocker. A really active listener. And for people who have gotten to a certain point in their career through command and control, this is going to feel very strange, jarring and counter intuitive, but we've seen it time and time again. You need to trust that your workers are in a new environment. You have to give them a mechanism feeding back to you to help them unblock whatever it is. >> You know that's funny, we had someone on as part of this the other day, talking about leaders need to change their objectives that they're managing to, from kind of activity based, to deliverals based. And it actually floored me that someone is still writing in a blog in 2020, that people have to change their management deliverables from activity to deliverables. And it was so funny, you know, you had Martin Mikos on, we had him on too. My favorite comment was, "It's so easy to fake it in the office and look busy, "but when you're at home all you have is your deliverable." so it really, it seems like there's kind of a forcing function to get people to pay attention to the things they should be managing to anyway. >> You said it, forcing functions. I talk about this all the time, but there are so many forcing functions in remote that help you do remote well. But not only just do remote well, just run your business well. Even if you plan on going back to office. On some level there's a lot of things you can do now to help pave the infrastructure to creating a better and more effective team. And as a manager, if you have it in a writing down. The metrics or expectations for your direct reports in the office, now's the time to do it. Subjectivity is allowed to flourish in the office. You can praise or promote people just kind of how much you like them or how easy they are to work with. That really has nothing to do with metrics and results. I've often been asked, "How do you know if "someone's been working remotely?" And my response is, how do you know if they were working in the office. If you can't clearly answer that in the office, then you're not going to be able to answer it remotely. So frankly, in these times a lot of the burden falls more on the manager to actually take a hard look at what they're clarifying to their team. And if the metrics aren't laid out. It's on the manager to lay that out. It's not the responsibility of the direct report to figure out how to prove their worth. The manager has to be very articulant about what that value looks like. >> Right, and not only do they have to be articulate about what the deliverables are and what their expectations are, but. You guys have a remote play book GitLab has published, which is terrific. People should go online, it's 38 pages of dense, dense, dense material. It's a terrific resource, it's a open source, you got to love the open source, eat those. But one of the slides that jumped out to me, and it's consistent with a lot of these conversations that we're having, is that your frequency of communications when people are not in the same room together. Has to go up dramatically, which is a little counter intuitive, but what I found even more interesting was the variety of types of communication. Not just you kind of standard meeting, or you standard status on a project, or maybe a little bit of a look forward to some strategic stuff. But you outlined a whole variety of types of communication. Objectives or methods, or feel if you will, to help people stay connected and to help kind keep this team building going forward. >> So here's the thing about communication. You've got to be intentional about it in a remote setting. And in fact, you need to have more intentionality across the board in a remote setting. And communications is just a very obvious. So for a lot of companies, they leave a lot of things to spontaneity Inter-personal relationships and communications are two of the biggest ones. Where you may not actually lay out a plan for how work is communicated about, or what opportunities you give people to chat about their weekends, or sports, or anything like that. You just kind of put them in the same building and then people just kind of figure it out. In a remote setting that's unwise. You're going to get a lot of chaos and disfunction when people don't know how to communicate and on what channel. So at GitLab we're very prescriptive that work communication happens in a GitLab issue or a merge request. And then informal communication happens through Zoom calls or Slack. We actually expired our Slack messages after 90 days, specifically to force people not to do work in Slack. We want the work to begin where it needs to end up, and in that case it's a very, it's a tool, GitLab, that's built for asynchronous communication. We want to continue to encourage that bias towards asynchronous communication. So yeah, we write down everything about how we want people to communicate and through what channels. And that may sound like a lot of rules, but actually it's very much appreciated by our global team. We have over 1200 people, in more that 65 countries. And they all just need to know where communication is going to happen. And our team is really cohesive and on the same page because we're articulant about that. >> So I want to double down on that. On 'A secret is peace', 'cause you brought this up, or you and Stu brought it up in your conversation with Stu, and Stu raised an interesting point, right. Unfortunately in the day of email and connected phones, and this and that, there has grown an expectation that used to be business, okay was, "I'll get back to you within 24 hours "if you leave me a voicemail." And lord knows what it was when we were still typing letters and memos, and sticking stuff in the yellow envelop with the string, right, as multiple days. But somehow that all got changed to, "I need to hear back form you now." And often it feels like, if your trying to have just some uninterrupted work time, to get something done. It's like, why is your lack of planning suddenly my emergency. And you talked about, you can't operate that on a global, asynchronous team because everyone's in different timezones. And just by rule, there are going to be a lot of people that are not awake when you need the answer to that question. But that you've developed a culture that that's okay, and that that is kind of the flow and the pacing which A, forces people to ask in advance, not immediately when you need it. But also gives people unfettered time to actually plan to do work versus plan to answer communications. I wonder if you can dig into how did that evolve and how do you enforce that when somebody comes in from the outside world. >> The real key to that is something that might not be immediately apparent to everyone. Which is, at GitLab we try to shift as much burden as we possibly can humans to documentation. And this even starts at onboarding, where to get onboarded at GitLab, you get an onboarding issue within GitLab, with over 200 check boxes of things to read and knowledge assessments to take. And humans are a part of it, but very minimal compared to what most companies would do. And the thing that you just outlined was, we're talking about asking questions. Or tapping someone on the shoulder to fill in a knowledge gap. But at GitLab we want to write everything down in a very formalized structured way. We try to work handbook first. So we need to document all of our processes, protocols and solutions. Basically everything that we've ever seen or done, needs to be documented in the handbook. So it's not that GitLab team members just magically need less information, it's just that instead of having to ask someone on our team, we go ask the handbook. We go consult the documentation. And the more rich that your documentation is, the less you have to bother other people, and the less you need to rely on synchronicity. So for us it all starts with operating handbook first. That allows our humans to reserve their cycles for doing truly creative things, not just answering your question for the thousandth time. >> Right, another thing you covered, which I really enjoyed was getting senior executives to work from home for an extended period of time. Now obviously, before COVID that would probably be a lot harder to do. Well now COVID has forced that. And I think to your point about that is, it really forces the empathy for someone who had no interest in working from home. Didn't like to work from home. Loves going to the office, has their routine. Been doing it for decades, to kind of wake up to A, you need to have more empathy for what this is all about. And B, what's it all about by actually doing it. So I wonder, kind of your take in the movement to more of a work from anywhere future. Now that all the senior executives have been thrown into this work from home situation. >> Look Jeff, you never want to waste a crisis. We can't wish away the crisis that's in front of us, but we can choose how we respond to it. And this does present an opportunity to lay ground work, to lay infrastructure, to build a more remote organization. And I have absolutely advocated for companies to get their leadership teams out of the office for a meaningful amount of time. A month, ideally a quarter. So that they actually understand what the remote life is. They actually have some of those communication gaps and challenges so they can document what's happening. And then help fix it. But to your point, executives love going to the office because they're on a different playing field to begin with. They usually have an executive assistant. Things are just. There's less friction in general. So it behooves them to just kind of keep charging in that direction, but now what we have is a situation where all of those executives are remote. And I'm seeing a lot of them say, "You know what, I'm seeing the myths that I've perpetrated "break down in front of me." And this is even in the most suboptimal time ever to go remote. This isn't remote work, this is crisis induced work from home. We're all dealing with social isolation. Our parents are also doubling as homeschool teachers. We have a lot going on. And even on top of all of that, I'm amazed at how adaptable the human society has been. In just adjusting to this and figuring it out on the fly. And I think the companies that take this opportunity, to ask themselves the right question, and build this into their ongoing talent and operational strategy, will actually come out stronger on the other side. >> Yeah, as you said. This is as challenging as it's ever been. There was no planning ahead, you're spouse or significant other's also working from home. And has the same Zoom schedule as you do, for some strange reason, right. The kids are home as you said, and your homeschooling them. And they also have to get on Zoom to do their classes. So it's really suboptimal. But as you said, it's a forcing function and people are going to learn. One of the other things in your handbook is the kind of definitions. It's not just work from home or work at the office, but there's actually a continuum and a spectrum. And as people are doing this for weeks and months. And behaviors turn into habits. People are not going to want to go back to sitting on 101 for two hours every morning to go work on a laptop in the office. It just doesn't make sense. So as you kind of look forward. How do you see the evolution. How are people taking baby steps, if you will. To incorporate more of this learning as we go forward. And incorporate into more of their regular, everyday procedures. >> I'm really optimistic about the future because what I see happening here is people are unlocking their imaginations. So once they've kind of stabilized, they're starting to realize, "Hey, I'm getting a lot more time with my family. "I'm spending a lot less on gas. "I just feel better as a person because I don't show up "to work everyday with road rage. "So how can I keep this going." And I genuinely think what's going to happen in four or five months, we're going to have millions of people collectively look at each other and they say, "The boss just called me back into the office "but I just did my job from home. "Even in suboptimal conditions. "I saw my family more, I exercised more. "I had more time to cook and clean. "How about no, I'm not going to go back to the office "as my default location." And I think what's going to happen is the 80, 20 rule is going to flip. Right now people work from home only for a special occasion, like the cable company's coming or something like that. Going forward it think the offices are going to be the special occasion. You're only going to commute to the office, or fly to the office when you have a large contingent of people coming in and you need to wine and dine them, or something like that. And the second order of this is, people that are only living in expensive cities because of their location. When their lease comes up for renewal, they're going to cast a glance at places like Wyoming and Idaho, and Ohio. Maybe even Vietnam and Cambodia, or foreign places. Because now you have them thinking of, "What could life look like if I decouple geography at work. "I still want to work really hard "and contribute this knowledge. "But I can go to a place with better air quality, "better schools, better opportunity to actually "invest in a smaller community, "where I can see real impact." And I think that's just going to have massive, massive societal impacts. People are really taking this time to consider how tightly their identity has been woven into work. Now that they're home and they've become something more than just whatever the office life has defined them as. I think that's really healthy. I think a lot of people may have intertwined those two things too tightly in the past. And now it's a forcing function to really ask yourself, you aren't just your work, you're more than your work. And what can that look like when you can do that job from anywhere. >> Right, right. And as you said, there's so many kind of secondary benefits in terms of traffic and infrastructure, and the environment and all kinds of things. And the other thing I think that's interesting what you said, 80, 20 I think that was pretty generous. I wouldn't give it a 20 percent. But if people, even in this hybrid steps, do more once a week, twice a week. Once every two weeks, right. The impact on the infrastructure and peoples lives is going to be huge. But I wanted to drill on something as we go into kind of this hybrid mode at some point in time. And you talked about, and I thought it was fascinating, about the norms and really coming out from a work from home first, or a work from anywhere first. Your very good at specifying anywhere doesn't mean home. Could be the library, could be the coffee shop. Could be an office, could be a WeWork. Could be wherever. Because if you talked about the new norms and the one I thought was really interesting, which probably impacts a lot of teams, is when some of the team's in the office and some of the team isn't. The typical move, right, is to have everyone in the office go into the conference room. We sit around one big screen. So you get like five people sitting around one table and you got a bunch of heads on Zoom. And you said, "You know, no. "Let's all be remote. So if we just be happen to be sitting at our desk. If we happen to be in the office, that's okay. But really normalize. And like we saw the movement from Cloud got to Cloud-e to Cloud first, why not Cloud. And then you know, kind of mobile and does it work in a mobile. No, no, no it has to. It's mobile first. Really the shift to not, can it be done at home, but tell me why it shouldn't be done at home, a really different kind of opening position as to how people deploy resources and think about staffing and assigning teams. It's like turning the whole thing upside down. >> Completely upside down. I think remote first to your point, is going to be the default going forward. I think we're just one or two quarters away from major CEO's sitting on the hot seat on CNBC, when it's their turn for quarterly earnings. And they're going to have to justify why they're spending what they spend on real estate. Is if your spending a billion dollars a year on real estate, you could easily deploy that to more people, more R&D. Once that question is asked in mass, that is when you're going to see the next phase of this. Where you really have to justify, even from a cost stand point, why are you spending so much? Why are you tying so much of your business results to geography. The thing about remote first is that it's not a us versus them. A lot of what we've learned at GitLab, and how we operate so efficiently. They work really well for remote teams, and they are remote first. But they would work just as well in an office. We attach a Google doc agenda to every single business meeting that we have, so that there's always an artifact. There's always a documented thread on what happened in a meeting. Now this would work just as well in a co-located meeting. Who wouldn't want to have a meeting where it's not just in one ear and out the other. You're going to give the time to the meeting, you might as well get something out of it. And so a lot of these remote forced. Remote first forcing functions, they do help remote teams work well. But I think it's especially important for hybrid teams. Offices aren't going to vanish overnight. A lot of these companies are going to have some part of their company return to the office, when travel restrictions are lifted. It think the key here is that its going to be a lot more fluent. You're never going to know on a day to day basis, who is coming into the office, and who is not. So you need to optimize for everyone being out of the office. And if they just so happen to be there, they just so happen to be there. >> Right, right. So before we. I want to get into one little nitty gritty subject, in terms of investment into the home office. You know, we're doing 100% remote interviews now on theCUBE, we used to go to pretty much. Probably 80% of our business was at events, or at peoples offices, or facilities. Now it's all dial-in. You talked a lot about people need to flex a little bit on enabling people to invest in the little bits and pieces of infrastructure for their home office, that they just don't have the same set ups. You're talking about multiple monitors, a comfortable chair, a good light. That there's a few things you can invest in, not tremendous amounts of money. But a couple of hundred bucks here and there, to make a big difference on the home work environment. And how people should think about making that investment into a big monitor that they don't see. It's not sitting at the desk in the office. >> 100%, look if you're coming from a co-located space, you're probably sitting in a cube that costs five, 10, maybe 20 thousand dollars put together. You might not notice that, but it's not cheap to build cubicles in a high rise. And if you go to your home and you have nothing set up, I would say it's on the people group to think really hard about being more lax and more lenient about spending policy. People need multiple monitors. You need a decent webcam, you need a decent microphone. You need a chair that isn't going to kill your back. You want to help people create healthy ergonomics. Sustainable workspaces in their home. This is the kind of thing that will inevitably impact productivity. You force someone to just be hunched over on their couch, in front of a 13 inch laptop. I mean, what kind of productivity do you really expect from that. That's not a great long term solution. I think the people group actually has a higher burden to bare all the way around. You know when it comes to making sure teams feel like teams and they have the atmosphere to connect on a meaningful level. It comes down to the people group, to not letting that just go to spontaneity. You want to have a happy hour virtually, you're going to have to put a calendar invite on peoples calendar. You're going to create topical channels in Slack for people to talk about things other than work. Someone's going to have to do that. They don't just happen by default. So, from hardware all the way to communication. The people group really needs to use this opportunity to think about, "Okay, what can we unlock in this new world." >> Right, I'm glad you said the people group and not the resources group because they're not coal, or steel, or a factory. >> No, if anything COVID has humanized this in a way, and I think it's actually a really big silver lining, where we're all now peering into each others homes. And it is glaringly obvious, that we're all humans first, colleagues second. And of course that always been the case, but there's something about a sterile or co-located work environment. You check a piece of you at the door. And you just kind of get down to business. Why is that, we have technology at out fingertips. We can be humans with each other. And that going to actually encourage more empathy. As we've seen at GitLab, more empathy leads to better business results. It leads to more meaningful connections. I mean, I have people, friends, located all over the world that I feel like I have a closer bond with. A closer, more intimate connection with that a lot of people I've met in office. To some degree you don't know who they really are. You don't know what they really love and what makes them tick. >> Right, right. All right Darren, so before I let you go and again thank you for the time, the conversation. I'm sure everyone is calling you up and I just love the open source ETHOS and the sharing. It's made such a huge impact on the technology world and second order impacts that a lot of people take advantage. Again, give us the place that people can go for the playbook, so they can come and leverage some of the resources. And again, thank you guys for publishing 'em. >> Absolutely, so we're an open source. We try to open source all of our learnings on remote. So go to allremote.info that will redirect you right into the All Remote section of GitLab handbook. All of which is open source. Right at the top you can download the remote playbook, which is PDF that we talked about. Download that, it takes you through all of our best information on getting started and thriving as a remote team. Just under that there's a lot of comprehensive guides on how we think about everything. And how we operate synchronously. How we handle meeting, and even hiring and compensation. allremote.info and of course you're welcome to reach out to me on Twitter, I'm @darrenmurph. >> All right, well thanks a lot Darren. And I find it somewhat ironic that you have a jetliner over your shoulder. Waiting for the lockdown and the quarantine to end so you can get back on the airplane. And we're looking forward to that day. >> Can't wait man, I miss, I miss the airplanes. I told someone the other day, I never thought I'd say I miss having a middle seat at the very back of the airplane, with someone reclined into my nose. But honestly, I can't wait. Take me anywhere. >> I think you'll be fighting people for that seat in another month or so. All right, thanks a lot, Darren. >> Absolutely, take care all. >> All right, he's Darren. I'm Jeff, you're watching theCUBE, from our Palo Altos Studios. Thanks for watching, we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>>LA from Las Vegas. It's the cube covering AWS reinvent 2019 brought to you by Amazon web services and they don't play along with its ecosystem partners. >>Well, welcome back live in Las Vegas. We're here on the cube. Continue our coverage here of day two of AWS. Raven 2019 in fact, it took me to the last interview on the second day to be paired up with my guy. Still many minutes to what happened is this is the first interview we've done this way. >>John, you know, I've not been out playing golf >>well and I wouldn't mind if I was, it'd be all right Brandon. You know Brandon, you play golf. Brandon Young? I do. I play college golf so, and I have a, you can't see them, but I have some trousers that might match there and prove that I have done a few times. Paint shirt would be, he would very proud granted to VP of alliances to get lab. And where'd you play college golf by the way. I split some time in Oklahoma and down at rice down in Houston. Oh you, yes. Wow. Be a sooner. How back that has some pretty good golfers there. They do. Um, let's first off, let's talk about, um, VP of alliances sure. And get like what do you do? So what does that encompass? What's that all about? Covers a bunch of pieces. Uh, covers all of the big key partnerships with us. >>So that's going to be obviously Amazon, other big cloud providers, a lot of strategic technology partnerships and then all your system integrators, man service providers, resellers, um, and then functionally anything else that comes in. So also we're bringing the open source space. So lead a lot of our open source engagement, uh, uh, in as well. What kind of customer base we're talking about here? I mean for, for you guys, sorry, cause it's pretty significant. It's, um, so in the space we've got roughly to two to 3 million users that use get lab and count on it for building, deploying and securing their code. Uh, and somewhere between a hundred thousand and 200,000 companies, uh, that get loud is, uh, is being used. Now. >>Brennan, you're not dealing with get lab. You're also on the board for the Linux foundation. And you know, we're, we're getting close to 2020. So I even, I saw some people looking back at where open source has come in the last decade. And you know, get, of course is one of the predominant drivers the proliferation of opensource. So maybe tell us a little bit about, you know, what your customers come to. Uh, w you know, why, why get lab is so critical to what, >>sure. Yeah. Because if we look at history, it kind of makes naturally in get lab we're getting, so that was where our, our base was, uh, when we started in 2012, 2013. Um, as it's evolved, so in get continues to be that core piece you need. So whether you're doing get ops infrastructure is code application development, you've got to have state, you've got to store your issues, you've got to take care of that. That's just one Oh one in software development or infrastructure management. Um, so that's got to where we started. And then, you know, a couple of years later, we picked up and did a bunch of stuff in the CIC space. Initially we had them separate, uh, and customers kept saying, God, these might work well together and to the Linux world has always been single tool, very sharp, very narrow. Uh, so we held off on that for a long time. >>Um, finally said, Oh, we're going to give it a go, shift them together. And that's kind of led to where we are now, which is we think of, you know, get lab as a single tool for the entire dev ops life cycle. And that makes it easy for someone to get started to build it, secure it, ship it, all of that from idea to production in the shortest possible time. And so that's kind of how it evolved. And yeah, we've grown up with the open source world ever since. And um, it's an awesome place. All right, so you've got the alliances and we're here at the biggest cloud show there. So help us connect the dots. Get lab AWS. Yeah. Perfect. So if we kind of look back and we go, ah, look at the keynote, right? So Andy talked a whole bunch, front keynote, Goldman Sachs, big talk with Verizon, a lot around the services, new stuff with arm new chips, new, um, a lot of new databases. >>Um, all of that rolled out. Those are services as Amazon looked at it. Our goal, our job is to get those customers onto the Amazon services. We're the tool that helps them develop and deploy those applications. Goldman, huge customer, Verizon, huge customer. So the majority of the keynotes you'd get lab to get to Amazon. So we're that tool that does the application security deployment and um, you know, lets those devs really take advantage of the great services that Amazon delivers. You know, you talk about security is it, is it, um, and obviously it's increased in terms of its importance. We recognize we've, we've seen how vulnerable apps can be and, and these invasion points, is that being reflected in budgets? Are we seeing that? Are people making these kinds of investments or is there still some lip service being paid to it and maybe they need a little more money where their mouth is. >>There's not a shortage of dollars, so I'll be be real straight forward. That is for us, the big growth area is uh, application security in a pipeline. The notion of shift left, um, and it's been, it's actually one of the easier conversations because the CSOs really want to make sure that every piece of code is tested, be it static code, dynamic code, license scanning, all the above. Um, the way they've had to do that and traditionally done it is at the end of a pipeline and they make every dev on happy because they throw it all the way back to the front with the dev. And then I was like, Oh, thank you so much. I did that two weeks ago and now I have to go, why didn't we do it on the front side instead of the back side? You kill the most important thing, which is cycle time, right? >>Cycle time is time from idea to Chimp. So by shifting it left, there's plenty of money and the CSOs love it because just want you to spend it. It's where they spend it. Right. And so now they get all the code tested. The devs love it because they get feedback instead of the CSO saying this is broken. The two old, the second they hit command a couple minutes later, Oh it's broken. They go fix it, make another commit. They're going to move way faster much. Um, so that's really what we get at and yeah, but no short in dollars, the security still the windows, the spend happens, you're saying right on the front side instead of the back shop and try and get full coverage. So a lot of times otherwise if you're trying to do security after someone's developed it, you're not sure. Like are you getting every code, all a piece of code that was developed? Are you getting just a lot of it as you talked about web apps, a lot of it is the focus. Oh the web apps. Cause that's the front end. But intrusion, once it passed the front end, it's a soft interior. You've got to do every single piece of code has to be tested. >>Yeah. It's Brandon. So you know what I've heard, especially from, I mean, you know, my peers in the security industry, you know, security needs to be considered the entire way. Security is everyone's job chair's responsibility. I need to think about it. But the other thing that really has changed for people is you talk about CIC. D I need to move fast. Well hold on. The security team's got to review everything. One of the core principles of dev ops is you want to bake it in the process, you need to get them involved. And then there's DevSecOps which pulls all of these pieces together. So tell, tell us how those trends are going and that, you know, speed and security actually go together not opposed. >>Oh yeah. And because, and it's how you measure the, the speed. Cause I think sometimes the question is all back to what is it from it. It's, it's a life cycle. And if that's what you're measuring, being able to do the security earlier is so much faster because you're not having to iterate, um, later. But, um, it's continues to increase. Devs are getting more and more say that's not gonna change anytime soon. Um, empowering those devs to own the security, uh, empowering those devs through the pipeline to be able to deploy into Lambda, into far gate. They love that. And if you could give that and give the security, the visibility, the dashboarding, the understanding of what just went in, um, what code they're using, what the licenses are, that visibility is huge and that allows you to move fast cause it's trust. >>I mean actually, uh, I love the researchers at Dora, you know, do the annual survey, uh, on dev ops and they said, actually if you are a company that tends to deploy less often, it tends to take you much longer to recover and you're not geared to be able to do it. Uh, you know, my background networking and you think about, you know, security is one of those things like, well wait, I want to keep my things stable and not changing for a while, but that means you're less and less secure cause I need to be on the latest patch. I need to be able to update things there. So, uh, you know, CIC D I think leads to should lead to greater security. Do you have some stats around that for your customer as to, you know, how they measure that? >>We have some pretty good velocity. Um, so Goldman went with us and this is real public is they, they started with us and went from about a two week release cycle down to tens, 20 a hundred times a day. Um, and that, I mean that's a company that does a great job in dev, um, but can also be like smaller companies like wag labs that we talked with earlier and they same kind of thing. They went often from a week down to they were doing, they typically do 20 to 30 deployments a day. And again, it just makes you break the pieces smaller, less likely that you're going to introduce dependencies that break something and all that process builds on each other as the door is stuff. If you haven't read, you've read it obviously, but if the users haven't great place to get started and understand how this works. >>Has testing changed or is testing changing in terms of when you establish the criteria, what you're looking for in terms of I guess you have a lot of new capabilities so you've got to change, I assumed your criteria up front do have a little proper, a little more accurate evaluation is that environment it's changed somewhat. I mean testing in application testing it is pretty specific to every comfy. So tools continue to get better. Um, ways of review have gotten a lot better. So, uh, there's now a lot of capabilities that at the point that you're going to go into deployment, one of the harder pieces is doing, um, your user acceptance testing is like, God, am I going to see the same thing that a user will? Right. And a lot of these have gotten to a point like we have a one click at the end of the deploy, a review app. >>Anyone in the company can look at exactly rebuild everything you're going to bought to deploy. So there's some tools that make it faster. Um, but in terms of what your load balancing in terms of your user acceptance testing, a lot of those principles continue to be pretty girl. Uh, one of the big things we heard from Andy Jassy is talking about transformation and he said you can't just do it incrementally and you need, you know, clear leadership and commitment. We want to hear how, you know, you're hearing about this from your customers. How is get live helping customers along those transformation journeys. Sure. Um, so totally agree that, I mean, it's a cultural piece, uh, without question. I think there's a couple of places, there's the obviously the tool piece and just getting everyone on the same page. And we, we all know this intuitively is we've seen what w when you go from a word doc to a Google doc and everyone can edit the same time, that's transformation goes, you know what everyone's working on, uh, and you're not duplicating effort. >>And that, that's really in many ways that's what get lab is doing is just helping the front end. I, you know, product manager know exactly what's going on in the infrastructure side and you communicate in a similar language. Um, the other piece of that we are working a lot in is because, um, get lamb operates an extremely open culture. So we publish how we run the company in a handbook that's 2,500 pages. We're always updating it. So, uh, we do reviews every time we release, we release every single month for the last 120 months in a row. We go through, here's what the release is going to be. It's on YouTube. Everyone can see it when things go wrong, we publish it. So we have an outage, we will, we have live broadcast, how we get back out from an outage and we publish all of it for someone to understand. >>And so one of the other things, there's a lot of our customers are getting started on that journey. There's one thing for a deck that says, here's what you do for your transformation for your company. That's another thing when you can literally jump in on Monday morning under the get lab call and watch, get lab go through a post-mortem of when we had a small outage. Oh that's what a no blame looks like. Okay, now I understand that, Hey, what, what didn't we release that we could have done better? And those are processes that you can have it on a piece of paper, but it's a different thing when you can walk through that with the company. And it's even better when you're watching the company that's doing the same product, the same tool that you're using. So I mean that's a, that's a cultural decision. >>Yes. I mean it's gotta be right. Yeah. I love the no blame. Right. Cause you're saying instead of finger pointing, great or castigating, you know, we're, we're going to learn from this. And how do you think, what impact does that have on a customer when they see you in real time solving your problems? They know that. They know that if they have a question for us, that we both take it seriously and that we're going to do it in a way that they know when it's going to be resolved. And that doesn't mean that we always deliver at the same time that a customer asks. But that level of transparency breeds both trust. And it also helps a customer quantify what do they want, helps us huge amount of communication because they know what we're prioritizing and they understand why. And that isn't something that is typical to come, but it's always typically very hard unless you're broadcast everything like we do to know, well, why are they making that decision? >>Um, and so that's one of the real big reasons that our customers work with us. That's where we get 10,000 plus additional contributors to get lab as an open source project. And that helps massively of course. So the velocity is because there's no difference between a get labber or the thousand get lappers in 64 countries or any one of the 10,000 contributors or our biggest competitors that regularly make contributions to, uh, our, um, our landscape. So we have a landscape that's, how does dev ops work? Who does stuff well? Hey, have no shame if they delivered something better. I want to know that I make that commit. We will share it with the world that we are not good at that and you are better at it and you know what? We'll get better. Right. It's a winning formula. It's good. It's been working really well. I appreciate the time brand. A good saying. You can love the slacks. Wish we could show them of course. But next time, thanks for having us. All right. You're watching Carvery Cherif AWS reinvent 2019 on the queue.

>> Live, from Bellevue, Washington. It's theCUBE. Covering, Smartsheet Engage 18. Brought to you by, Smartsheet. >> Welcome back to theCUBE's continuing coverage of Smartsheet Engage 2018. I am Lisa Martin with Jeff Frick. We are in Bellevue, Washington or, as I like to call it, not Vegas. Excited to welcome to theCUBE, Robin Sherwood, the Senior Director of Product Management at Smartsheet. Hey Robin. >> Hi, how's it goin? >> Great. This is, been a very buzzy morning, for Jeff and I here on this side. Lot's of people, this event has doubled in size. This is your second annual, so... >> Big growth in just a year. There's a, I think, Mark Mader, your CEO, shared some sats this morning. There are 1100 companies represented here customers. >> Correct. >> From twenty countries, there are more than fifty customer speakers, which is, I think there's no more validating voice, than the voice of a customer using the technology. When I was doing some research on Smartsheet, was looking at, you guys are partners with, some of your competitors. One of things I wanted to understand is, where do you have integrations with technology, versus where do you have connectors? What's the difference between those two, and how does is work >> Yeah. >> In a Smartsheet world. >> You know, I think, the integrations really are, where you're going to, you're really interacting with that other product directly, right? So, maybe it's, I want my outbound messages and notifications to go into a Slack channel, right? That's an integration. Or, I want to be able to connect to Google Drive, or 03 Secure, One Drive document, in those native stores. So, that's where we really see an integration. It's something that the end user themselves, is really interacting with. Where you see connectors is more around where I've got big systems of record in my organization, and I need data to flow between those tools. >> Like a Sales Force. >> Like a Sales Force, or a JEAR, or something like that. Microsoft Dynamics, right? I've got data there, when something happens in that system, I need it to flow magically into Smartsheet, or when something happens in Smartsheet, I need it to flow back into those systems. Cause, those are the systems of record, that my company cares about. >> So, a connection is a much bigger step in integration? >> They're just different. >> Connectors are really about the flow of data back and forth between systems of record and integrations are more about user content and user direct interactions. So, things like Drive and Box and Dropbox, and Slack and Teams and, stuff like that. Or, the web content, which we just announced. We want to be able to embed a Youtube video in a dashboard. That's not integrations, it's not, there's no data flowing back and forth, it's just a link, right? >> Got it, thank you. >> Yeah. >> So, lot of customer's we have, I think fifty customer's presenting, which is amazing out of 2,000 people in the whole conference. I don't know what the percentage is, but it's, (laughs), >> Yeah. >> Awfully large. So, just some of the all chatter here. You've been here for a couple of day now, you guys had some early training yesterday. What is some of the things you're picking up? You obviously love to hear back from the customer's. Kind of, what's the buzz on some of the new offerings, and what are you hearing, amongst the constituent here? >> I mean, it's always, you know, this is only our second year. But the energy from them is always amazing. And, you know, people were, I was talking to someone earlier and they were just blown away. By just the big list of things that we shipped, this week. And, as I was reflecting, like, I don't remember doing all that much. But then, when you see it all on one big slide, with everything listed out, it's incredible. So, it's hard to say if anybody latched on to one thing or another. Obviously, there was lots of applause during the product... >> Yes. >> Session, and we're really excited to have shipped, the multi-assign to feature, which has been our number one customer request for a while. But, it's not a, game-changing feature. Whereas, I think some of the Automation Rules ,and Updates there, and Workflow Builder, are really. People are going to go back and it's going to to change the way that they work. And, so people are really excited about that. But, really excited about Dynamic View. And being able to really, taylor the information that is shared across their organization. >> The word collaboration, like symbionic or bi-directional collaboration, popped into my mind. When Gene Pharaoh, your SVP of Product, who we had on earlier, was talking about some of the features and it was a really interesting dynamic with the audience. In that, number of times, you mentioned, the audience broke into applause. And, it probably feels pretty good. Like, yes, we're listening to you, we're doing this. Enabling, them to have technology that allows them to collaborate with and amongst teams and functions within an organization. But, you're also taking their feedback, directly and collaborating with customer's, to further innovate your product. With the spirit of collaboration, we had, Margo Visitacion on from Forrester. And she was talking about the collaborative work management CW as an emerging market. With respect to collaboration, you guys can enable sharing. I can be a licensed user, and share it with you who's not. How is that type of collaboration a differentiator for Smartsheet? >> Well, you know, I think there's a lot of tools where they're collaborative where you can comment on them. Google Doc, and that's great. But, I think where Smaresheet really excels, is really in this free collaborator model. That's not bounded by your particular organization or your team. And it really allows you to create, to spread, and create connections across customer's and vendors and other orgs within your team. And, this is where you're starting to see this these sort of step function changes in these organizations. Where, you know, you see this Office Depot example. And, he talks about, you know, taking a workflow in their organization they, going from, you know, four to six weeks, down to twenty-four hours. And, enabling people who are putting in budget request, to take action on that request, the next day. And, those are the kinds of things, that are going to fundamentally change those businesses. And so, that's where I think the collaboration piece is really powerful. You can't get that kind of compression in time. Unless, you can really span those traditional business hours. >> So Robin, one of the great things that happens always is, with tech companies is the application versus the platform exchange, right? Everybody wants to have a platform, it's really important. You get an ecosystem, lot of stuff going on, but nobody's got a line item in their budget for 2019 to buy a new platform, right? >> It's always, >> Correct >> Application centric, right. I got a problem, I've got to fix it. At the same time, you guys, you do have a platform. Meaning, you can go across a lot of different applications. So, when you're trying to balance out your priorities with the platform. Priority, in terms of more of, kind of a general purpose underly, versus and app priority, like you said, multi, how do you call... >> Multi-assignment. Yeah. >> Multi-assignment, you assign two people to the (laughs). To the no correct product management protocol, but everybody wants it, cause it's the real world. How do you kind of prioritize that? How do yo kind of look at the world when you're deciding, what are you going to roll out next, what are you going to roll out next, ware are you going to roll out next? >> It starts and ends with having conversations with real people. We've taken lots of data and we have enhancement request and usage data on how people use the product. Multi-assigning, actually, was less than 3% of all answered request in the last couple of years. But, it's our number one request. And so, it sort of. >> Oh, Wait, wait wait. So it was less than 3%. >> Of all enhancement request. >> But it was number one? >> But it's our number one. >> So you've got a giant laundry list. >> Giant laundry list of things, right. So, we can't just look at some metric and go, these are the next features we should build because we have this really strong signal. We actually, have a very, very weak signal when we look at it from a quantitative standpoint. So what we have to do is we really have to dig into these customer use cases. We have to meet with them. All of our project teams have dedicated researchers, and dedicated user experience. People that are going out, we're actually talking to people. We're testing stuff with them and we're trying to understand what commonalities exist between multiple cases across all of these different use cases. Because, there're so many different ways people use the product. There not enough people asking for one thing. >> Right. >> They're all asking for slightly different things. So, we really have to dig in and have a real, qualitative conversation with them. To understand, and bring that back and say okay, these things are related. We can build something that solves, all of these problems in a compelling way. >> Well, it's definitely more than 3% of the people cheer. When, when that. (laughs) >> Yes. >> When the feature was announced, that's for sure. So the other, kind of (mumbles), that you've got to wrestle with is, kind of a low code, no code, we want to be for everybody, yet at the same time, you want a sophisticated application. You want integrations and connectors to all these other applications. So, again, that's kind of a delicate, balancing act as well. Cause, you want to let everyone have access to be able to manipulate the tool, work with the tool, set up the tool, but at the same time, you got to keep it, pretty sophisticated to connect to all these other things. How do you kind of balance those. >> Well we... >> Priorities. >> We just try to hide as much of that as possible. You know, Smartsheets always been this tool, where it's like, it sort of looks like a spreadsheet, and it sort of looks like project management. But it's got this underlying flexibility built into it. We don't force you to, you know, if you've got a date column, we don't force you to put a date in there. If you don't know the answer, you can type in TBD. Whereas, a lot of purpose built applications, their like, this is a date, you have to enter it in the proper date format, or it doesn't work. We've always had this, sort of, flexibility and complexity trade off. The trade off is, if you give us real data, if you give us something that looks like a date, we'll draw a Gantt Chart for you. We don't need much more, it doesn't need to be more (mumbles) than that. We just won't draw the bar if you type in TBD. And so, we've always sort of danced this line, with making the tool super flexible and assume the users know what they're doing. When they're interacting withhe tool we assume they an intention and they're trinna do something. And, we shouldn't force them down a particular path. And that, sort of, plays out in all these features. The other thing that we do, is like I mentioned earlier, we do a lot of user research and we get in front of a lot of customers. And we put stuff out there, well in advance in releasing it. In a situation like this, we announced a bunch a capabilities around workflow and multi-step approvals and multi-step workflows. And, I think that's a complex feature set. That's gone through more iterations of design and review and scrapping it and back to the drawing board, than any feature I've seen at this company. But, it's probably one of the more complex features we've ever build, as well. And so that's what we would expect, right? We're not going to get this right, by just having a bunch of designers and engineers sit in a room and go, oh, we know that perfect solution to workflow management. >> Right. >> Most of our customer's don't even necessarily, use the term workflow. >> And if you look in the app, it doesn't even say. It says words and actions. You know? And little things with words matter. We have technical writers that are very specific on what we label something. It's not an if statement. It's when this happens, do this. And there's a lot of nuance and subtlety into all of this. To try and drive the complexity out of it as much as possible. >> Right. >> You can't avoid it, but you know. >> So, in hiding it, the last thing which your going to do, going forward is machine learning and artificial intelligence. Which we hear about all the time, but really the great opportunity in the field, is for you to leverage that under the covers. To hide. >> Absolutely. >> The nasty complexity to help suggest the right answer. To help suggest the right path. So, that's got to be a huge part of your roadmap. Integrating those types of capabilities, underneath the covers. >> Yeah and, there's been a lot of, we've have had tons of discussions and obviously we bought the Converse Chatbot Company back in January. And, that's been a huge sort of arrow in our quiver, so to speak, right, in that regard. We feel that we have a lot of really good information. But, at the same time, there's a lot of talk about machine learning and AI. And, the reality is, that relies on huge data sets. And it relies on a lot of analysis. And that data is not something that we can just look at, right? We take our customer's data, security data privacy very seriously. And we don't have access to that kind of information. So we need to look at this, the machine learning and the AI capabilities from a very different lens, then say a consumer product. That's sort of, you're getting to use it for free, they sort of do whatever they want with your data. And you don't really have a lot of recourse, other than leave the product. We don't start from that, we start from, your data is yours, you own it, we can't look at it. But we want to enable you, to turn these types of features on. So, we need to look at more of like an off-end model, where a customer can say oh, if I'm a big enterprise user at Smartsheet, I can turn certain capabilities on for my users, knowing that that information is going to stay in our, is going to comply with our data governance, and our data privacy rules. That our IT team puts forward. >> So the spirit of talking about abstraction, abstracting complexity, Hiding it, (mumbles). I'm curious, when you walk into a customer. Cause here we are in Bellevue, we're not in Vegas, But, we're neighors with AWS, with Microsoft, Microsoft announced Teams, about eighteen months, or so, ago. You partner with both, you compete, but you, also, you're competing with Teams. When you walk into a customer and an enterprise, likely has a mixture of, tons of different software appications, right. But they probably have, 360, Office 365, Para Bi, Excel... Why would a customer, who has such a familiarity with, say a Microsoft, work with Smartsheet versus, well we'll just extend our Microsoft expertese and bring in something like Teams? >> Yeah. >> I'm just curious, what...You've seen in that? >> Well, you know, I think it's that Smartsheet's always been good at sort of, orchestrating the actual work that's being done. And, there's a lot of tools out there where, you're having conversations and tools out there where you're creating content, and there's not a lot of tools out there, that are sort of bringing the conversation and the content together. In an actionable and accountable way, right? And that's the sort of, Gene will, you'll sometimes here hims say, use this term, shared fabric. The Smartsheet, really provides this shared fabric, that ties a bunch of these tool together. And we really, we want to partner with all these people, because every organization is different. Every organization has a different set of tools that they've already embraced. They have a different set of goals around how many tools they're going to embrace. You talk to some customer, they're like, I love Smartsheet, it's going to allow me to get rid of ten apps. And, you talk to another customer that's equal size or equal complexity two minutes later, then they'll be like, I love Smartsheet, it allows me to work with all the tools that I've already got. Very different, and they just have to different coperate goals and objectives there. And so, I think that the reason people like Smartsheet, is it doesn't, it's back to that kind of, hey, you don't have to put a date in a date cell. It's flexible. It's going to work with you and not force you to adopt the Smartsheet way about things. It's going to say look, oh, if you want to use, if you want to us Teams for your communications vehicle, and One Drive for all of your document storage, great. You want to embed a PowerPoint document in a dashboard in Smartsheet, great. We want that to be the case. We do that internally, right, we use all those. If you look at us internally, we're just like every other mordern company. We have a dozen tools or two dozen tools that we're using. And it's different from team to team and department to department. So, it's all about just embracing the reality, that as modern business and modern application, the ecosystem of applications that we all deal with on a day-to-day basis. >> So that flexibility is key. So we said about 1100 companies represented here, at this event. 2,000 people or so, fifty plus customer speakers. Is there one customer example that comes to mind, whether they're speaking here or not, that really is a great demonstrator of, we have a plethora of applications in our environment. We want to work with Smartsheet because it enables us to integrate and use these tools so much better? I didn't mean to put you on the spot. >> Yeah, no. I'm trinna think of a good. I don't know that I have a good standout example. I think that we hear little tidbits of that from everyone. And it's not, it's a very common theme. So, I don't know that. It's sort of back to the 3% thing, right? Nobody really stands out because everyone is doing that. Everyone is, I hear things, I'm going to replace this tool because you did this. Or, I'm going to now pull, integrate with this tool because, you've added this. So, you sort of take some and give some, on the same sentence almost. >> Yeah. You can do both. >> Yeah. >> Well Robin, thanks so much for stopping by. We appreciate your time. We're excited to be here. This is our first Smartsheet event. And we have some customers coming up, so looking forward to hearing some more these cases in action. >> Great, thanks a lot. >> Thank you. >> Thanks. >> We want to thank you for watching theCUBE, I'm Lisa Martin with Jeff Frick. You're watching us from Smartsheet Engage, in Bellevue, Washington. Stick around, Jeff and I will be right back, with our next guest. (tech music) (tech music) (tech music)

>> Live from San Francisco, it's theCUBE, covering Google Cloud Next 2018. Brought to you by Google Cloud and it's ecosystem partners. >> Hey, welcome back everyone. We're live in San Francisco for Google Cloud's conference Next 18, #GoogleNext18. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante. Our next guest is Faizan Buzdar, Senior Director at Box, box.com, collaborative file sharing in the Cloud. No stranger to Cloud. Welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you for having me. >> So you guys have a relationship with Google. First talk about the relationship with Google, and you have some breakouts you're doing on machine learning, which I want to dig into, but. Take a step back. Take a minute to explain the relationship between Box and Google Cloud. >> So Box has partnered Google for a few years now, and we have actually two areas of key, sort of, collaboration. One is around the Google Productivity Suite that was actually announced last year. But we actually demoed it for the first time in public today. Where, if you look at a bunch of customers, like about 60% of the Fortune 500, that chose Box as their secure content layer. These guys can now go into Box and say, "Create a new Google doc, Google spreadsheet, Google slide." And it will open up. It will fire up the Google editors. You can do, get all of the benefit of the rich editing, collaboration, but your content is long-term stored in Box. So it does not leave Box. So from a security and compliance layer, if you've chosen Box, you now get to use all of the power of the Google collaboration and >> It's Google Drive inside Google Box, but natively, you guys have the control for that backend, so the user experience feels native. >> Yeah, so in this case it doesn't touch Google Drive. It's basically, it never leaves Box. So that's the key benefit if you're a Box customer. >> That's awesome. That's great for the user. Great for you guys. That's awesome. Okay, so take a step back now. What's your role there? What do you do? >> So I'm Senior Director for Product Management, and I basically look after two areas. One is our sort of best of breed integration strategies, such as the one with Google Suite or Gmail. And then the second area is machine learning, especially as machine learning relates to specific business process problems in the Enterprise. So that's one of the areas that I look after. >> So how do you use data? You talked about the integration. How are you using data to solve some of those business process problems? Maybe give some examples, and tie it back into the Google Cloud. >> So, for example, so for us, we announced a product called Box Skills last year at BoxWorks. And we're going to talk about it next month at BoxWorks, too. So, the strategy there was we will bring the best of breed machine learning to apply to your content in Box, and we will take care of all of the piping. So, I keep hearing machine learning is the new electricity. But if you talk to CIOs, it's a weird kind of electricity for them because it actually feels like I have to uproot all of my appliances in factory, and take it to where the electricity is. It doesn't feel like electricity came to my factory, right? Or appliances or whatever. So, our job, we looked at it, and we said, "Hey, we have probably one of the biggest, most valuable repositories of content, Enterprise content. How do we enable it so that companies can use that without worrying about that?" So Box Skills actually has two components to it. One is what we would call, sort of, skills that are readily available out of the box. So as an example, today we are in beta with Google Vision. And the way that the admin turns that on is literally, he goes into his admin panel and he just turns on two check boxes, chooses which folders to apply it to, maybe apply it to all of the images in the Enterprise. So if you're a marketing company, now all of your images start to show these tags, which were basically returned by Google machine learning. But to the end user, it's still Box, they're still looking at their images, it still has all of those permissioning, it's just that now, we have the capability for metadata, for humans to add metadata manually, now that metadata is being added by machine learning. But in terms of adoption for the Enterprise, we made it super simple. And then, the framework also enables you to connect with any sort of best of breed machine learning. And we look at it, if you were to sort of make a, look at it as two axis, number of users that would use it, and the amount of business value that it brings. There are some things which are horizontal, like, say, the basic Google Vision, basic Google Video, basic Google Audio. Everybody would like an audio transcript, maybe. Everybody wants some data from their images. And that's something that a bunch of users will benefit from, but it might not be immense change in business process. And then there's another example, we'll say you're a ride sharing company, and you have to scan 50,000 driving licenses in every city that you go into. And currently you have that process where people submit their photos, and then people manually add that metadata. And if now you apply Google Vision to it, and you're extracting the metadata out of that, I actually love scenarios like this. Like, enterprises often ask me like where we should start. Where we should start in terms of applying machine learning, and my sort of candid advice is don't start with curing cancer. Start with something where there is some manual data being added. It's being added at scale. And take those scenarios, such as this driving license example, and now apply machine learning to that, so where previously it would take a month for you to get the data entered for 50,000 driving licenses, now you can do it in 50 minutes. And, um, yeah. >> And what's the quality impact? I mean, presumably the machines are going to get it right more often. >> Yeah. >> But do you have any data you can share with regard to that? >> So that's, actually, that's such an awesome question. And I'll connect it to my sort of previous advice to enterprises, which is that's why I love these processes because these processes have exception handling built into them already. So humans have at minimum a 5% error rate. Sometimes a 30% error rate. So, when we looked at, you know, captioned videos and TV from like 10 years ago, we could clearly see errors in that, which humans had transcribed, right? So, most of these manual processes at scale already have two processes built in, data entry, data validation and exception handling. So the reason that I love replacing the data entry portion is that machine learning is never 100%, but to the validation process, it still looks like kind of the same thing. You still saved all of your money. Not just money, but you saved sort of the time to market. And that's also what Box does, right? Because if you use Box in combination with Google Cloud, we actually, one of the things that I didn't talk about before, we looked at all of these machine learning providers, and we came up with standard JSON formats of how to represent machine learning output. So, as an example, you could imagine that getting machine learning applied in audio is a different problem than getting machine learning applied in video, is a different problem than getting machine learning applied from images. So we actually created these visual cards, which are developer components. And you can just get, put data in that JSON format, we will take care of the end user interactivity. So as an example, if it's a video, and you have topics. Now when you click on a topic, you see a timeline, which you didn't in images because there was no timeline. >> You matched the JSON configuration for the user expectation experience. >> Exactly. So now if you're in Enterprise and you're trying to turn that on, you're now, you could already see the content preview, and now you can also see the machine learning output, but it's also interactive. So if you, if you were recording this video, and you were like, "When did he say BoxWorks?" You click on that little timeline, and you will be able to jump to those portions in the timeline. >> That's awesome. I mean, you guys doing some great work. What's next? Final question, what are you guys going to do next? You got a lot to dig in. You got the AI, machine learning, store with Google. You got the Skills with Box to merge them together. What's next? >> So I think for us, the machine learning thing is just starting, so it's sort of, you'll learn more at BoxWorks. But for us I think the biggest thing there is how do we enable companies to experience machine learning faster? Which is why when we look at this two axis image audio video, we enable organizations to experience that quickly. And it actually is like an introduction to the drug because the guy who has to process insurance claims or the car damage photos, or the drone photos, he looks at that Google Vision output, and then he says, "Oh, if I can get these ties, maybe I can get these specialized business process ties." And then now he's looking at AutoML, announced today, and, you know, the adoption of that really, really >> Autonomous driving, machine learning. It's going to happen. Great stuff. Real quick question for you. When is BoxWorks? I don't think it's on our schedule. >> Next month, yeah. >> I think it's August 28th or 29th. It's coming up, yeah, yeah. >> So I'm going to go check. I don't think theCUBE is scheduled to be there, but I'm going to make a note. Follow up. >> We'd love to have you. Check with Jeff Frick on that. I think we were talking about covering the event. It's going to be local in San Francisco area? >> Uh, Moscone, yeah. >> Moscone, okay great. Well, thanks for coming on. Machine learning, certainly the future. You got auto drive, machine learning, all kinds of new stuff happening. Machine learning changing integrations, changing software, changing operations, and building better benefits, expectations for users. Box doing a great job. Congratulations on the work you're doing. Appreciate it. >> Thanks for coming on. >> Thanks for coming on. More CUBE coverage after the short break. We're going to wrap up day one. We got a special guest. Stay with us. One more interview, and then we got all day tomorrow. Be right back. (upbeat music)

(click) >> I'm Lisa Martin with theCUBE on the ground at Google for the sixth annual CloudNOW Top Women in Cloud Award Event and we're very excited to be joined by one of the award winners, Neha Jain, Engineering Manager at LinkedIn. Welcome to theCUBE. >> Hi, thank you, Lisa. >> And, second of all, congratulations on the award. We'll talk about that in a second, but one of the things that I found very inspiring when I was doing some research about you is how you describe yourself on LinkedIn. A lot of us use LinkedIn, of course. I love that you said that you love to work on technology that empowers users and uplifts the society. What a beautiful statement. >> Thank you so much. >> Tell me a little bit more about what you mean about that. >> Growing up, I always wanted to be in a space where I was doing something for the community. A little bit about myself is I'm an only child and my father passed away when I was barely a year old. So my mom, who's also disabled, raised me literally single-handedly and we had a lot of help on the way. So the thing that always kept me going and inspired is if I could do it, then anyone can. And I have to make that happen, and that is an obligation or a responsibility that I have toward the world. That's basically what I did. Initially I wanted to become a doctor and help the patients get the best of their health but I couldn't deal with blood. >> That's kind of a key. That was a good decision. >> I was really interested in math as a child, so I was like, "Yeah, let's try this engineering thing. "It also sounds pretty fun." And then that's how I started in the engineering field. Initially I joined a company directly from college, but the work didn't inspire me as much. And then I found out about SlideShare. It was a company in the user-generated space, user-generated content space, and they had a female CEO and I was like, "Oh my God, this is just perfect, "and I have to get there." So I joined SlideShare, and six months later it got acquired by LinkedIn. Interesting turn of events. And then now at LinkedIn, we are in the process of creating economic opportunity for every member of the global workforce. And that's a mission I can live for. That's something that inspires me every single day and gets me up in the morning, gets me to work, where we are trying to get the right talent matched with the right job, get the companies the right hire. That's very inspiring work to do. >> As an, and I would say, inspiring female in technology, what are some of the things that once you finished your education, you said your first job, you realized, "This isn't quite what I want." But you have the drive, it sounds like probably innately for you that, "I want something else." You kind of knew what you were looking for. Or maybe you knew, "I know when I get there." >> Yeah, you could say that. It's something that, ah, what I was doing was interesting work, but in terms of impact, it wasn't very clear. So I'm sort of a person who's driven more by results, by metrics or something like that. There should be something tangible that's coming out of it, that I can measure. >> Right, yes, validating, right? >> So then I was like, at that time, internet was taking off, and it was all very -- People were all over the place and there were so many things getting shared. And then Facebook came around and then there was Arab Spring and so many other things that were happening. People were taking ownership of their own lives and their own values. I thought that something in the internet space would be an interesting place to be where you could make the change and empower people, empower your users. And I wasn't willing to move out of India at that point, so it was like, "Let's just join SlideShare." I'd been using SlideShare when I was in college doing researches and working for Google Summer of Code. So then I saw that they had a banner that they were hiring, and I'm like, "Okay, yeah, let's just interview for them." >> And here you are. Within the last couple of minutes here, I want to talk about the Top Women in Cloud Award that you're being honored with tonight. And also something that I thought was really, really honest that you wrote on LinkedIn was your experience with imposter syndrome, which I've had for many years and didn't even know what it was until I read about it. And I think that's so, it's such a strong message, knowing that you've had that, but also seeing how accomplished you are, what does this CloudNOW Top Women in Cloud Award mean to you? >> That's a very good question. That's something that I'd been asking myself as well when I first got nominated for it. So my friend, who is the co-founder of Haliburton School, Silmar, he nominated me for the award. I got the email and I was very excited that okay, this is really interesting. How could I become this person? And then I read the application form. There were five questions and I'm like, "I'm not good enough. "I'll not be selected. "I'll just spend a lot of time filling out "this application form, and it will all be futile." So I thought, "Let's just not do it." But then Silmar, he just didn't nominate me for the award, he pushed me to apply, to fill out the application. >> Because he knew how accomplished you were. >> And I am so grateful to him for that. He started a Google Doc where he copied all the questions, and he started listing all the things that I'd done. >> That's fantastic, Neha. >> He is the kind of mentor or the kind of friend, the kind of force that I guess if all the females and all the people had, the world would be a different place. So that's the kind of inspiration, the kind of support that you want from people. >> Absolutely. >> Then I was talking to my husband and my husband was like, he's a very logical person, he wouldn't give you direct prescriptions that, "Okay, no, you should do it, "you should do that," or this or that. He would ask you questions and then make you decide what you want to do, but in those questions will steer you in the direction. >> Right. >> Which is very clever of him. Very few people have the kind of smartness to do that where you don't even realize that you are being pushed into some of the things. >> It sounds like he helps you think through, and you realize, "I have accomplished a lot. "I am deserving of this award." And here you are, being honored tonight. >> Yeah, so it's like, maybe that's not what I thought. What I thought is that there are things, and I should probably apply for it and not wait, not give up because of the result. So that's something that I've also learned in my life. My mom always tells me, "Don't bind yourself to the result. "Just give your best shot. "That's all which is in your control, "so just do that." And that's basically also what my husband also ended up pointing out to me. So then I was like, "Okay, fine, I'll apply." And it was basically like just three days before the application deadline. So I filled out the application form, sent it out to the LinkedIn's comps team for review, my manager reviewed the entire work-related stuff, and I'm so grateful that they were able to do the review process in time so that I could apply right before the deadline. I don't know what the CloudNOW award will mean for me, and I hope that we are able to drive real change in the tech field and bring more women and more diversity and inclusion and belonging in the community. So today, Vint Cerf was the keynote speaker. And he was saying that when he joined the tech industry there were 50 percent women, and there were women who were programming. And if you've seen the movie Hidden Figures, >> Oh, yes. >> There were women who figured out how to program. >> A very long time ago. >> Yeah, a long time ago. And we've had people like Grace Hopper and all these other women leaders. And now just 20 years later, you would think the situation would get better, but it has actually gotten worse. >> Right. >> So why is it? The thing that falls on us as a responsibility is to figure out why would we change direction for the worse. And, people have gotten smarter, not lesser intelligent, right? So why would women not opt into computer science and give up? There is something that we aren't doing right. And I think a lot of companies have started asking the right question. Like in LinkedIn, we have the diversity, inclusion and belonging initiative. And we try to make these differences in real time. When I joined LinkedIn, when I moved to the United States, I couldn't recognize people because of the variety of facial structures. And I had a lot of difficulty. I had always grown up seeing Indian faces. And I could easy tell that you were Calcutta or you're from Bangalore. And I could tell it from their faces. But that wasn't something here. And I would always confuse people, and that bothered me a lot. But at LinkedIn, all the things that we had, all the initiatives that we had, the culture and the values, they help me feel belonged. And not a single day has passed where I don't feel that I am not the right person for this job. >> You're making a contribution. >> Yeah. >> Well, congratulations Neha on the award. >> Thank you. >> Thank you so much for stopping by, and I think you're quite inspirational. >> Thank you so much. >> And we want to thank you for watching. I'm Lisa Martin on the ground with theCUBE at Google. Thanks for watching.

>> Narrator: Live from Boston, Massachusetts. It's the Cube. Covering OpenStack Summit 2017. Brought to you by the OpenStack Foundation, Red Hat an additional ecosystem is support. >> Welcome back to the Cube. I'm Stu Miniman joined by my cohost John Troyer. Happy to welcome to the program two first-time guests. We have Anne McCormick who is a technical leader with Cisco. And we also have Sandhya Dasu who is a OpenStack engineer with Cisco. Thank you both for joining us. >> Sandhya: Thank you. >> Anne: Thank you. >> So Anne let's start with you, tell us just a little bit about your role at Cisco and what you're involved with when it comes to OpenStack. >> Absolutely, I've been at Cisco for 11 years. I have been working on OpenStack for about two-and-a-half now. It's been a blast, I've been to six different summits. I'm having a great time. My role at Cisco is I work under the Metacloud acquisition which is basically a managed, on-prem Cloud solution. And what my role is, is to bring Cisco technology into those deployments, so basically bringing the power of Cisco networking into OpenStack. >> Great so just to clarify, you weren't part of the Metacloud, you were part of Cisco. >> Anne: Yes. >> And you're working with that team who we know. We actually interviewed them back before the acquisition. Great to see you. Sandhya, tell us a little about your role, what you do at Cisco and with OpenStack. >> Sure, I have been with OpenStack the last three years. And Cisco about the same time as Anne, about 11 years. Worked in different routing technologies. But in OpenStack I'm responsible for the Neutron ML2 mechanism driver for Cisco UCS managers. So I've been having a great time in the OpenStack community. Developing in Neutron, giving upstreaming code and stuff like that, yeah. >> We wanted to talk about women of OpenStack but also the Women of OpenStack organization. Can you talk a little bit about what that group is here in the OpenStack community and how you got involved? >> Absolutely, Women of OpenStack is fantastic. It's something I discovered at my very first summit in Paris. I was a little leery going in 'cause I wasn't sure what the attitude would be, if it's us versus them kind of thing, that's definitely not what I'm looking for. But what I found was an extremely inclusive and encouraging community of women and men. It basically addresses the need for more women in technology and tries to make the community a more welcoming place and I think it takes both men and women to do that. And I think their charter is fantastic. They have really great events. >> Yeah, so I have been involved with Women in OpenStack also. Like Anne said, very inclusive community. I have been able to be at different levels of involvement, at different times based on the other work that I'm doing. But I also believe that just showing up and doing your work everyday is also setting a good example for everybody else to feel welcome. >> Great could you share a little bit, maybe start with Anne. The activities going on at the show. We know, like, just down the road from us here there's the Women in OpenStack lounge. I believe there's a lunch you had. What does it encompass at one of the summits? >> Yes, that's fairly typical that they have a lounge area. Today they had a working session during lunch. To kind of go over different things and discussion points. Also yesterday there was a speed mentoring session that I was a part of, it was fantastic. It was my first time doing that but I really enjoyed it. And they have ongoing mentoring for six month sessions which I'm also starting to get involved with. And I know I'm missing one, but there's just so many activities that they do, it's great. >> Sandhya? >> So I help out mostly with people trying to put their first code out for review. And I think that seems a bit daunting in the beginning because this is a very big community. You get a lot of code reviews. From lots of different people, how do you handle all the feedback? So I help out with people with their first upstreaming goal. Once they enter OpenStack. >> So I mean, tech has some diversity challenges, right. We, it's well-known, many communities in the technical realm, right? So the OpenStack community being an open source community. Comes out of a particular set of codes of conduct and expectations and participation. What have your experiences been working in the OpenStack community over the years? Does it feel, is it a, is it a welcoming egalitarian community? I mean, the Code of Conduct, last week we just had, there were some issues in the Kubernetes community which were swiftly addressed. I think the people's awareness actually is much higher than it was even say five years ago, let alone 10 or 20. But how have your experiences been working in OpenStack as a diverse and supportive community? >> I've found that my experience in the OpenStack community has been extremely positive. So I find that, I mean, before the open source, before I got into open source I did work with smart engineers but a comparatively smaller number. But now you get to interact with a whole, large number of really smart people and I think you should tap into that portion of your experience more than anything else. So the first time, I mean, I always found that I was happy with the code that I put out for review. But after making all the changes that I got as review comments, I was really proud of the output. So I think there are lots of positives in this environment. You need to make use of that, focus on that. And in terms of the Code of Conduct. I have only had very positive experiences here. >> And I find the community to be equally welcoming. When I walk into one of these big rooms with a predominantly male population I don't go in thinking I'm a female minority, I go in thinking I'm an engineer and this is my tribe, you know? So I think it's great. >> Alright, anything in particular that Sandhya was talking about. You know, setting an example as an engineer and as a female engineer. Anne what has your experience been? >> It's interesting, when I first started out in engineering. I got a scholarship to an engineering school, that was my first, when I started off on the road. And I remember being so proud and going up to receive this scholarship. And I heard somebody next to me say, "Oh what a waste, they're giving it to a girl." And it's funny because it had never until that point occurred to me that there might be any kind of perception like that. So my first knee-jerk reaction was, "Well I guess all the dinosaurs didn't go extinct." But after that-- >> John: Good for you. >> (laughs) But I mean I could easily have been bitter about it but instead I kind of saw it as an opportunity to set an example and to lead with my work and with my confidence. And to help to change the perception that gender matters when it comes to what you do for a living 'cause I don't believe it does. >> I studied in engineering. I know when I had group projects and had women on the project it helped, you need diversity of ideas. You need diversity of background and skillset. Sandhya, any comments about just diversity in general that you'd comment from the engineering standpoint? >> I think like Anne mentioned, once in a while you do get, you are conscious of the fact that there are very few other women in the room. But that's really, that should not be hindering your progress in any way. Just focus on being an engineer. And I think after a point everybody starts looking past the gender thing and just look at your work. >> Once you're around the table or you know, working on a shared whiteboard or Google doc, right, the gender falls away, you're working on the project. >> Sandhya: Exactly. >> Anne: Absolutely. >> And the same thing applies to IRC too. It's a very democratic channel. Everyone has an equal voice. And then in the end it turns out to be a meritocracy there. And if you have a good idea people will take it. Otherwise like everybody else, you just have to work on tweaking it. >> The concept of mentoring has come up a couple of times in this conversation already. As people look at the diverse workforce, and diverse workforce in tech. People talk about things like the pipeline problem. But from what I understand and have read, you know, a lot of it is supporting underrepresented groups within their careers and in their career growth right? And so that, a lot of that comes down to setting examples and mentoring. Can you talk a little bit about Women of OpenStack and how you talked about speed mentoring maybe and how, one let's talk about Women of OpenStack and mentoring. And then maybe even how you're doing mentoring in your own personal career at Cisco. >> Absolutely, mentoring is something that I'm kind of new to but it's becoming a passion of mine. As a way to both give back and to help encourage other people but also I get something out of it. I get inspired by the energy that people bring to things and by the enthusiasm. Yesterday at my speed mentoring session, one of the women that I talked to was very, very qualified and very excited about OpenStack. She has a full time job that doesn't involve OpenStack so she was involved in OpenStack on the side, you know, 'cause that's fun (laughs) to do on the side. But basically she was telling me that it was hard for her to break into the community. And she was a little bit shy about handing off her resume and stuff. And I think, I kind of said to her, "You know you're selling yourself short. "You've got a lot of enthusiasm. "And I think companies would be inspired by that. "And want to include you." So it was just kind of a nice way to help inspire people and encourage them. >> Have you done any mentoring yourself? >> Yes so I find that while I'm mentoring someone there's something that I get out of it too, because whenever you talk to a new grad you get this enthusiasm, this burst of enthusiasm. That helps you fuel your own work again. But I have heard lot of people discouraging each other from entering this field because they say it's not set up for their success. But then I think that's a self-possessing processing. So the more of them that there are in this field the better it is for everyone else. So that should not be a reason for not getting into this field. >> Sandhya could you talk to us a little about your upstream contributions, what things you've been proud of and excited about when it comes to OpenStack in general? >> Yeah so I have been active in the Neutron community. Mostly in the ML2 area of Neutron plugins. What I'm working on is the Cisco UCS mechanism driver for the Neutron ML2. What it helps you do is to use the Cisco UCS Manager to set up virtual networks, Neutron virtual networks and configure SR-IOV ports. And basically use the entire UCS ecosystem in context of OpenStack. >> Great, Anne you've been to six of these summits. Anything as you reflect back, just the maturity of the project, the maturity of the community. Or one of the themes this week has been kind of resetting expectations about what OpenStack is and isn't. What's your take on the community? >> That's interesting. I feel that there was a bit of a bubble perhaps. Maybe a year or so ago with OpenStack. But I don't think, I don't think we have to reset expectations too far. I do think that it's necessary, I don't think it's going anywhere. I think it's evolving and I really do see it as the second wave of the Internet. So we need it and I think it's great. >> Anne, Sandhya, really appreciate you joining, sharing your perspectives. We always love to have the diverse experience and OpenStack actually one of the better shows in making sure we have, you know, smart, energetic, contributing, you know, women participants in the community. We've had a number on, have a few more. So thanks so much for joining us and thanks for all of your contributions in the community. >> Anne: Thank you very much. >> Sandhya: Thank you for having us. >> John and myself, we'll be back with lots more coverage here from the Cube at OpenStack Summit Boston, Massachusetts. Thanks for watching the Cube. (upbeat techno music)

hi everybody we're back this is Dave vellante from Wikibon Oregon here with Jeff Frick this is silicon angles the cube the cube we go into events like this we're at knowledge service now is user conference we try to extract the signal from the noise would bring you we love sports analogies here we like to bring you the best athletes tech athletes week all them so Carolyn Hollingsworth is here she's I know Carolyn you're a fan of a football but we're going to call you a tech athlete so Karen's with Lennox internationals he's an IT practitioner there Carla thanks a lot for taking some time and coming on the cube so tell us a little bit about Lennox about the organization and what's your role there Lennox is a global manufacturer of furnace and air conditioning equipment were based in Dallas Texas and we have sales of about five billion dollars a year and i'm the senior manager of service operations ok so this conferences amazed this first knowledge conference I've been to I presume you've been to others or is this year first oh this is actually my fourth kind of okay so you were here an inning so they had a few before that I'd be close but so it's it's evolved over the years I told oh yes it seems like year-over-year it doubles yeah so it's gotten bigger and more diverse or in terms of just the content or is it still sort of focused on you know leveraging the platform and now it's got more diverse I mean they've added you know discovery and their this new orchestration which is run book that's new this year they're always adding new modules so and then to now they're really pushing platform that's the custom applications you can build outside of IT so do you they tell us it's really easy to write applications can you write applications on the platform oh yes really okay you a programmer by trader I programmed in a past life okay really don't program today but I can't go in and build screens within service now and do reporting it's very easy so I was a program of past life too and not a very good one which is why I know hosting the cube but I have an idea for an app so I'm dying to get my hands on the platform so I can play around with what they just came out with a brand new app that they say that anybody can sit down and write application app creator right yeah so I will test that anybody claims oh they said we have a hackathon going on I believe tomorrow yeah we actually come in that earlier today you're in there filming at that phone is underway there they're working till midnight I made sure that they had pizza and caffeine and I think they're gonna have a little bonus Vegas entertainment visiting at some point in time so tell us more about how you're using service i'm really interested in the sort of before and after described life before service now came in you know what was that like and how did it change and we'll get into the implementation a little bit well before service now we did have an application for the help desk to take tickets but that's about all we did nothing else within IT really had a system like service now after we brought service now and you know we it's a complete package they keep you know they say erp for IT well it truly is you can do ticketing we're doing change change management discovery of all of our assets we've built our own applications for access management even departments outside of IT are coming to us now and saying hey we see what you've done with service now we have something we think that maybe we could use it for so we've built applications for HR we're building an application for our R&D department to track the various incidents and changes that goes on with the large test cells for HVAC equipment marketing we have some small retailers that has pieces and parts for our HVAC equipment around the United States we've built an app for them to bring in new equipment and it has to go through a workflow and be approved by like a district manager pricing changes sales programs I'll have to be approved well we build an app for them that runs on service now also so prior to service now you had the collection of sperm and I've seen the spreadsheets and it's an asset spreadsheet and the spreadsheets on top of spreadsheets and that's that what that describes your environment oh yes definitely and somebody owns the spreadsheet this is totally right yeah this is before you know google doc so I chose I got it you take it you take it so you had all this sort of conversion simultaneous versions going on convictions or email email was always a big way to pass around test the various people can you take care of this can you do that now you may be very well may have had project management systems right actually we had a homegrown project management so a lot of customers right there yeah homegrown or Microsoft projects or you know whatever 37signals I mean there's there are many out there so how did ServiceNow sort of change things in other words what can you do now that you couldn't do then we have one system where everything is so there's no you know before someone would say this is the way it is and another one might be tracking the same assets or the licenses and we had 22 answers now we have one system that is the record their goal we called our golden record so everything is in service now it's connected to each other if you know if you think of erp for manufacturing is you know everything is connected to each other right so you see each other you used to have to add one plus the other divide by two and say okay that's a truth so parents can you talk a little bit about mobile I'm Mobile's impacting your business we keep hearing about we keep hearing about I think of the Linux guy out in the truck checking in on the HVAC outside the house and the commercial actually they are actually building computer controls into our units now they've announced a couple of them but it's going to be able to call home when it has a problem and it's just starting but I mean they're actually taking this mobile idea to our products and arses we're doing some plc's where our sales force is getting iPads and they're going to be doing some apps within Salesforce calm and talk about that one but it's okay you got to manage a lot of different idea I so many puzzles of that we're starting to delve into mobile we're looking at possibly replacing all of our laptops with either notebooks or tablets so we have a lot of PLC's going on right now just trying to put a strategy together as to what our mobile is going to be but it's coming towards us all different ways were there challenges in terms of would be so you bring in service now you get the single system that we call to the gold golden record record were there challenges in getting rid of stuff we have to keep army called GRS getting rid of stuff getting rid of for instance legacy systems that had sort of embedded themselves into the organization and how did that go how did that all come about well let me tell you first how ServiceNow got into our organization we had this older system and we had it for 10 years and I mean it was meeting our needs we thought I mean we didn't really have any problems with it we weren't looking for a new system and yeah I remember this is five years ago we I got an email out of the blue for with a little embedded commercial for her demo for service now and it was I mean just sort of like mind boggling what they were saying they could do and how it was all packaged in one package and basically I you know I want that just for that just for that day and what we'll use cases they that they outline that grabbed you so effectively it's just that everything you know is there erp system for IT everything was there is connected we had the system we had all we had was ticketing if you wanted problem you had to buy another module if you want to change it by another module everything you wanted was more money this was one package one subscription price and you know you got it all and but it took me a year to convince my peers and our vp that we should be looking at this now why did it take so long what was the kind of friction what was the discussion like well it's like well why didn't we you know the use case why did why do you need a new tool you know this'n seems to be you know taking stock broke right wife is it and Lennox is a very conservative company and and we have in the past run a lot of old software as probably a lot of companies do if there's not a real need there you know they don't go out and look at in retrospect it was broke right in your hair to what you're doing now so how did it affect your business I mean did you get more competitive are you able to you know track better people or you out cost how we we posed it after you know I got some doubles going and everybody in the you know interested in looking at this we convinced our vp that we should go global with this because before Lennox was very structured that each locality because her global had their own IT systems and their own IT support groups so while they reported in dotted line into dallas the headquarters everybody sort of did their own thing so we came up with this program will we were going to do standard global processes with 80 and so that's where we started and then we were going to use service now as the tool of choice so we started down that path and it didn't make a big difference to the business because now most of our IT processes are the same across the globe and you know we're asking everybody to do things the same way go to service now and just work that way so you stuck with it for a year and a half I mean you don't seem like the type of person who's gonna start pounding the table and intimidating people that doesn't seem to be your style so so I bet you but at the same time you you kept at it so it was you know a year and a half before you were able to convince people so how did you go about that sell process I'm really well rhian give advice to the other position Hunter wonder you're watching the shutter say Carolyn help me my senior guys to make us make the sleep in here today thirty percent of it yeah well I till was really becoming big at the time and there was a lot of news going on about I chill and you know we do listen to you know gardener and Forester and people like that so I told was getting big and I think you know it just came at the right time with our vp to say well you know maybe this is something we should look into and you know we got all the senior management together and basically he said you know everybody's got to put their thumbs on the table that we're doing the or we're not going to do it and everybody came to the table said yes it sounds like a good thing to do so what are you most proud of the accomplishments that you've made both professionally and personally as it relates to this initiative I think that our support and operations department or groups are working the most efficiently that the most efficient that they can and I think that you know we're responding to our customers needs a lot faster we're not hearing all the complaints that we heard before that you know hey this has been broke when you're going to fix it you know we're even trying to become more proactive we've brought in some monitoring tools that we didn't have before to help us along those lines so just to be more customer-centric and you know sort of instead of saying no to the customer say okay we can do it now so all this I mean you're using the lines of indoor so all the stuff we hear about from going no to now that's not just to you that's not just marketing you're actually living that is that fair statement yes I mean like I said we started putting up our own applications and now we have all these customers who wouldn't normally come to support and ask that though they have an application built they go to our project side of the house but they're coming to us you know we're working with safety and HR and R&D and you know I could double or triple my staff just to keep up with the request we're getting from outside of our teeth and you're able to do that so the businesses and helping you fund that yes it's got to feel great it's so easy to make an application I mean the other ERP system we use is SI p and you know to get a system up in sa peas big dollars 6 8 9 10 12 months and we literally built the application for our retail stores in two weeks so I mean I've been around IT a long time and I've just seen the finger pointing and what do you spending our money on it sounds like you're you've flipped or in the process of sort of flipping that tality is that is my overstating that er no I think that's that's gotta feel great I mean good congratulations hi Carol doesn't thanks very much for coming on the cube and sharing your story the story of Lennox your personal story and really congratulations on all the great progress oh thank you there's a pleasure all right keep it right to everybody will be back our next guest is marina Levinson who's the founder former at netapp CIO we've had a couple of