>> Narrator: From around the globe, It's theCube, with digital coverage, of Actifio data-driven 2020, brought to you by Actifio. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman, and this is theCube coverage of Actifio Data-driven 2020. Really excited to, dig into a fun topic. I have a Cube alumni with us he is a DevOps author, and researcher Gene Kim. Unicorn Project is the most recent, Gene, great to see you, thanks so much for joining us. >> Stu, great to see you again, here at the Actifio conference, this is all fantastic. >> Yeah, so your new book, it was much awaited out there, you know, Unicorn's always discussed out there, but you know, the Phoenix Project, as I said, is really this seminal, book when people say, What is that DevOps thing and how do I do it? So, why don't you give us a little bit as to The Unicorn Project, why is it important? Why we're excited to dig into this and, we'll, we'll tie it into the discussion we're having here for the next normal, at Actifio. >> For sure, yeah, in fact, yeah. As you might have heard in the keynote address, you know, the what, what vexed me, after the Phoenix project came out in 2013 is that there is still looming problems that still remain, seven years after the Phoenix project was written. And, you know, these problems I think are very important, around you and what does it really take to enable developers to truly be productive, instead of being locked in a tundra of technical debt. Two is, you know, how do we unlock truly the power of data so that we can help everyone make better decisions, whether it's a developer, or anyone, within the business units and the organizations that we serve. And then three is like, what are really the behaviors that we need from leadership to make these amazing transformations possible? And so The Unicorn Project really is, the fifth project retold, but instead of through the eyes of Ops leadership, is told through the eyes, of a phenomenal developer. And so it was amazing to revisit the, the Phoenix project universe, I in the same timeline, but told from a different point of view. And it was such a fun project to work on, just because, you know, to relive the story, and just expose all these other problems, not happening, not on the side, but from, the development and data side. >> Yeah. They've always these characters in there that, I know I personally, and many people I talked to can, you know, really associate with, there was a return of certain characters, quite prominent, like Brent, you know, don't be the bottleneck in your system. It's great, if you're a fighter firefighter, and can solve everything, but if everything has to come through you, you know, Pedro is always going off, he's getting no sleep and, you know, you'd just get stressed out. You talked a bit more, about the organization and there are the five ideals in the book. So maybe if you can, you know, strongly recommend, of course, anybody at ending active you, got a copy of the books they'll be able to read the whole thing, but, you know, give us the bumper sticker on some of those key learnings. >> Yeah, for sure, yeah. So the five ideals represents five ideas, I think are just very important, for everyone, the organization, serves, especially leadership. The first ideal is locality and simplicity. In other words, when you need to get something done, we should be able to get it done within our team, without having to do a lot of communication coordination, with people outside of our team. The worst, the most horrible feeling is that in order, to do a small little thing, you actually have, to have a, coordinated action that spans 15 teams, right. And that's why you can't get anything done, right? And so that's so much the hallmark of large complex organizations. The second ideal is that what I think the outcomes are, which is focused flow and joy, you know, I've not just now started to for the first time in 20 years, self identify, not as an ops person, but as a developer. And, I really now understand, why we got into technology in the first place. This so that we can solve the business problem at hand unencumbered by minute share. And that allows for a sense of focus flow and even joy. And I love how Dr. Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, describe it. He said, flow is a state that we feel when we love our work, so much that we lose track of time, and maybe even sense of self. And so I think we all in technology understand, you know, that that is how it is on the best of days and how terrible it is, you know, when we don't have that sense of flow. Third ideal is improvement of daily work, being even more important than daily work itself. The notion is greatness is never free, we must create it and must prioritize it, for the psychological safety. And the fifth is customer focus. So those are all the things I think are so important, for modern leaders, because it really defines the future of work. >> Yeah, we love that flow and it happens otherwise we're stuck, in that waiting place as you quoted Dr. Csi. So one of my favorite books there, there also. So Gene, for this audience here, there was, you know, yes, CICD is wonderful and I need to be able to move and ship fast, but the real transformational power, for that organization was unlocking the value of data, which is, I think something that everybody here can. So maybe to talk a little bit about that you know, we, there there's, we've almost talked too much, you know, data is the new oil and things like that, but it's that, you know, that allowing everybody to tap in and leverage, you know, real time what's happening there were just at the early parts of the industry being able to unlock that future. >> Oh yeah, I love that phrase. Data is new oil, especially since oil, you know, the last 50 years, the standard Port 500 was dominated by, you know, resource extraction oil company and so forth. And now that is no longer true, it's dominated by the tech giants. And, Columbia there was a Columbia journalism review article that said, data's not only the new oil, is really the new soil. And for me, you know, my area of passion for the last seven years has been studying the DevOps enterprise community where, we're taking all the learnings that were really pioneered by the tech giants, Facebook, Amazon, Netflix, Google, Microsoft, and seeing how they're being adopted by the largest, most complex organizations on the planet, the best known brands across every industry vertical. And it's so true that, you know, where the real learning gets exploited right, is through data. I realized, this is how we get to know our customers better. This is how we understand their wants and needs. This is how we test, and make offers to them to see if they like it or not to see if they value it or not. And, and so for me, one of the best examples, of this was, the target transformation and Adidas how it was just an amazing example of, to what links they went to, to liberate developers from, being shackled by ancient systems of records, data warehouses, and truly enabled developers to get access to the data they need modify it, even delete information, all without having to be dependent on, you know, integration teams that were essentially holding them hostage for six to nine months. And, these programs really enable some of the most strategic programs at their organizations, you know, enabling hundreds of projects over the years. So, I think that is really, just showing to what extent, the value that is created by unlocking data for individuals. And sorry Stu, one more thing that I'm just always dazzled by my friend, Chris Berg. He told me that, somewhere between a third and a half of all company employees use data in their daily work. They either use data or manipulate data as part of the daily work, which, you know, that, population is actually larger than the number of developers in an organization. So it just shows you how big this problem is, and how much value we can create by addressing this problem. >> Well, it's interesting if it's only a third, we still have work to do. What we've been saying for years is, you know, when you talk about digital transformation, the thing that separates those that have transformed and those that haven't is data needs to be at the core. I just can't be doing things the way I was or doing things off intuition, you know, being data-driven, I'm sure you know, the same Gene, if you're not, if you don't have data, you know, you're just some other person with an opinion. >> Yeah, yeah. That's it this is a great point. And in Risto Siilasmaa's amazing book, Transforming Nokia, I mean, he was, he said exactly that. And he said something that was even more astonishing. He said, there's not only at the core, but data also has to be at the edges. You know, he was describing at Amazon, anyone can do an experiment @booking.com. Anyone can do an experiment to see, if they can create value for the customer. They don't need approvals from, committees or their manager. This is something that is really truly part of everyone's daily work. And so, to me, that was a huge aha moment that says, you know, to what degree, you know. Our cultures need to change so that we can not only, use data, but also create learnings and create new data, you know, that the rest of the organization can learn from as well. >> Yeah. One of the other things I definitely, you know, felt in your book, you synthesize so much of the learnings that you've had over the years from like the DevOps enterprise summit. The question I have for you is, you know, you hear some of these, you know, great stories, but the question is, our companies, are they moving fast enough? Have they transformed the entire business or have they taken, you know, we've got one slice of the business that is kind of modernized and we're going to get to the other 30 pieces along the way, but you know, there's wholesale change, you know, 2020 has had such a big impact. What's your thoughts on, you know, how we are doing in the enterprise on pace of change these days? >> That's a great question. I mean, I think some people, when they ask me, you know, how far are we into kind of total adoption of DevOps? It's a newer better way of working. And I would say probably somewhere between 5 and 7%, right, and the math I would take them through is, you know, there are about 20 million developers on the planet of which at best, I think, a million of them are working in a DevOps type way. But yet now that's only growing. I think it was an amazing presentation at DevOps surprise summit in London that was virtual from nationwide building society, the largest organization of its kind. It's a large financially mutually owned organization for housing in the UK. And, they touched about how, you know, post COVID post lockdown suddenly they found themselves able to do them reckless things that would have normally taken four years, in four weeks. And I think that's what almost every organization is learning these days is, when survival is at stake, you know, we can throw the rules out of the window, right. And do things in a way that are safe and responsible, but, you know, create satisfy the business urgent needs, like, you know, provisioning tens of thousand people to work from home safely. You know, I think the shows, I think it's such a powerful proof point of what technology can do when it is unleashed from, you know, perhaps unnecessarily burdensome rules and process. And I think the other point I would make Stu is that, what has been so rewarding is the population of these technology leaders presenting at DevOps enterprise, they're all being promoted, they're all being, being given new responsibilities because they, are demonstrating that they have the best longterm interest of the organization at heart. And, they're being given even more responsibilities because, to make a bigger impact through the organization. So I'm incredibly optimistic about the direction we're heading and even the pace we're going at. >> Well, Gene definitely 2020 has put a real highlight on how fast things have changed, not just work from home, but, but the homeschooling, you know, telehealth, there are so many things out there where there was no choice, but to move forward. So the, the second presentation you participated in was talking about that next normal. So give us a little bit of, you know, what does that mean? You know, what, what we should be looking at going forward? >> Yeah, it was great to catch up with my friend Paul Forte, who I've known for many, many years, and now, now a VP of sales at the Actifio and yeah, I think it is amazing that academic Dr. Colada Perez, she said, you know, in every turning point, you know, where, there's such a the stage for decades of economic prosperity usually comes, by something exactly like what we're going through now, a huge economic recession or depression, following a period of intense re regulations there's new, technology that's unlocking, you know, new ways of working. And she pointed exactly to what's happening in the Covid pandemic in terms of, how much, the way we're working is being revolutionized, not by choice, but out of necessity. And, you know, as she said, you know, we're now learning to what degree we can actually do our daily work without getting on airplanes or, you know, meeting people in person. So, I'm a hue, I have so many friends in the travel industry, right. I think we all want normalcy to return, but I think we are learning, you know, potentially, you know, there are more efficient ways to do things, that don't require a day of travel for a couple hour meeting and day to return, right. So, yeah, I think this is being demonstrated. I think this will unlock a whole bunch of ways of interacting that will create efficiency. So I don't think we're going, as you suggested, right. There will be a new normal, but the new normal is not going to be the same as your old normal. And I think it will be, in general for the better. >> So, Gene, you, you've gone to gotten to see some of the transformation happening in the organizations when it comes to developers, you know, the, the DevOps enterprise summit, the, the state of DevOps, you know. I think five years ago, we knew how important developers were, but there was such a gap between, well, the developers are kind of in the corner, they don't pay for anything. They're not tied to the enterprise. And today it feels like we have a more cohesive story that there, there is that if you put in The Unicorn Project, it's, you know, business and IT, you know. IT, and the developers can actually drive that change and the survival of the business. So, you know, are we there yet success or net developers now have a seat at the table? Or, you know, what do you see on that, that we still need to do? >> Yeah, I think we're still, I mean, I think we're getting there, we're closer than ever. And as my friend, Chris O'Malley the CEO of the famously resurgent mainframe vendor Compuware said, you know, it is, everyone is aware that you can't do any major initiatives these days without some investment in technology, right? In fact, you can't invest in anything without technology. So I think that is now better understood than ever. And, yeah, just the digital, it's a whole digital disruption, I think is really, no one needs to be convinced that if we organize large complex organizations, don't change, they're at a risk of, you know, being decimated by the organizations that can change using an exploiting technology, you know, to their benefit and to the other person's detriment. So, and that primarily comes through software and who creates software developers. So I, by the way, I love the Stripe it was a CFO for Stripe who said, the largest, constraint for them is, and their peers is not access to capital, it is access development talent. I think when you have CFOs talking like that, right. It does says it's suggested something really has changed in the economic environment that we all compete in. >> So, I mentioned that on the research side, one of the things I've loved reading over the years is that, fundamental discussion that, going faster does not mean, that I am sacrificing security, or, you know, the product itself, you know, in the last couple of years, it's, you know, what separates those really high performing companies, and, you know, just kind of the middle of the ground. So, what, what, what advice would you give out there, to make sure that I'm moving my company more along to those high performing methods. >> Yeah, but just to resonate with that, I was interviewing a friend of mine, Mike Nygaard, long time friend of mine, and we were talking on and we were recalling the first time we both heard the famous 2009 presentation doing 10 deploys a day, every day at flicker, by John Allspaw and Paul Hammond. And we were both incredulous, right there? We thought it was irresponsible reckless, and maybe even immoral what they were doing, because, you know, I think most organizations were doing three a year, and that was very problematic. How could one do 10 deploys a day. And I think, what we now know, with the size of evidence, especially through the state of DevOps research, is that, you know, for six years, 35,000 plus respondents, the only way that you can be reliable, and secure, is to do smaller deployments more frequently, right? It makes you, be able to respond quicker in the marketplace, allows you to have better stability and reliability in the operational environment, allows you to be more secure. It allows you to be able to, you know, increase market share, increase productivity, and, you know, have happier employees. So, you know, at this point, I think the research is so decisive, that, you know, we can, as a whole book accelerate, that really makes the case for that, that this is something that I now have moral certainty or even absolute certainty oh, right. It's, you know, self evident to me, and it, I think we should have confidence that that really is true. >> Wonderful work, Gene, thanks so much for giving us the update. I really appreciate it, some really good sessions here in Actifio, as well as the book. Thanks so much, great to talk to you. >> Stu is always a pleasure to see you again, and thank you so much. >> Alright, that's our coverage from Actifio Data-driven, be sure to check out thecube.net for all of the, on demand content, as well as, as I said, if you were part of the show, definitely recommend reading Gene's book, The Unicorn Project. I'm Stu Miniman. And thank you for watching the cube. (soft upbeat music)

>> Narrator: From around the globe, It's theCUBE with digital coverage of Actifio Data Driven 2020. Brought to you by Actifio. >> Hi, my name is Gene Kim and I am looking forward to the amazing Actifio Data Summit. Everyone who applies... Three, two, one. Hi, my name is Gene Kim. I'm going to smile one more time. Three, two, one. Hi, my name is Gene Kim. I'm looking forward to the Actifio Data Summit, where we're going to learn all about the power of data, everyone who registers between now and then will receive a copy of my book, "The Unicorn Project." I look forward to seeing you there, thank you. (upbeat music)

>> live from Anaheim, California. It's the queue covering nutanix dot Next twenty nineteen. Brought to you by Nutanix. >> Welcome back, everyone to the cubes. Live coverage of Nutanix Stott next here in Anaheim, California. I'm your host, Rebecca Night, along with my co host, John Farrier. We're joined by Jean Kim. He is an author, researcher, entrepreneur and founder of Revolution. Thank you so much for coming back on the Cube, Gene. >> Oh, thanks so much for Becca and always great seeing you and John. >> So you are a prolific author. You've written many books, including the Phoenix Project, The Deb Ops Handbook, given new one coming out. But this is this is the latest one we have here the Dev Ops Handbook >> twenty sixteen. And then we came up with a little bit cool accelerate based on the state of Davis report. And yeah, it's been a fun ride. Just what a great space to be writing about >> Dev ops has been. I'LL see that covered going back years. Now it's mainstream, and you started to see the impact of people who have taken the devil's mentality put promise and the place we see all the you know, Web scales from Facebook, you name. But now the enterprises is now really looking at agility scenario. You've been working a lot on you Host the Devil Devil Enterprise Summit. What's that been like? I mean, it seems to be well taken longer than some of the hard core cloud guys. So what's the State of the Union, if you will, for the enterprise from a devil standpoint? >> Yeah, What a great question. I mean, I think there's no doubt that the devil's principles and practices were pioneered in the tech giant's Facebook's Amazon necklace and Google's, but I've long believed with a certain level certainty that a CZ much economic values they've created, uh, that's just the tip of the iceberg. The real value will be created when you know the largest, most complex organization, the planet adopting same principles of patterns. And when you have Ah yeah, I think I. D. C said there's eighteen million developers on the planet of which, at maximum, no half million at the tech trying and the rest are in, you know, the largest brands across every industry vertical. And if we could get those seventeen and a half million developers as productive as if there were at Facebook Amazon, that for school I'm not, generates trillions of dollars of economic value per year. And when you know what, that much, um, economically being created. I mean, we'LL have undoubtedly, you know, incredible societal improving outcomes as well. So it has been such a treat to help chronicle that journey. >> One of the things I want to ask you. Genes that doesn't impressive numbers, but also UV factor and net new developers, younger generation, re skilled workers used to be a network. I now I'm a developer. You seeing developers really at the infrastructure level now. But show like this where Nutanix is a heart was a hardware company there now a software company. So they're ato heart of Jeb ops. In terms of their target audience, they're implementing this stuff, So this is a refreshing change. So I gotta ask you when you walk into an enterprise, what is the current temperature of our I Q of Dev ops are they are their percentage. That's you know, they're some are learning. Take us through kind of the progress. >> If I would guess right? This has much as I love statistics and you know, comprehensive benchmarking. Yeah, I think we're three percent of the way there. Alright, I percent Yeah, you know, we're in the earliest stages of it, Which means the best is yet to come. I think develops is an aspiration for many on DH. No, but having to change the I think Dave is often a rebellious group rebelling against agent powerful order right now, uh, forces far beyond their control. Conservative groups protecting their turf. I think that's kind of the, uh, probably a typical situation. And so, you know, we're a long way away from Devil's being the dominant orthodoxy. >> So if that's the case, just probably some people who have adopted it had success we're seeing in these new, innovative shifts. The early adopters have massive value extraction from that. So and that's an advantage. Committed advantage. Can you give us some examples of people who did that took the rebellion that went to Dev Ops were successful and then doubled down on it? >> Yeah, I think the one that come to mind immediately are like Capital one. Yeah, they went from eighty percent outsourcing to now. Almost hundred cent Insourced. Same with target, where they're really started off as a uh ah bottom up movement and then gain the support of the highest levels of leadership. And it has been so exciting to see the story's not just told by technology leaders, but increasingly shared and being told by both the technology leader and a business counterpart were the business leader is saying, I am wholly reliant upon my technology, Pierre, to achieve all the goals, dreams and aspirations of our organization. And that's what a treat, to be able to see that kind of recognition and appreciation. >> It's an operational shift to They have to buy into changing how they operate as a company. Yes, and believe me, they're like clutching on to the old ways. And that's just the way it is. A >> wonderful phrase from the NUTANIX CEO that Loved is that way often characterized that developers as the builders, but operation infrastructure, they are builders, too. In fact, you know, developers cannot be productive if they are mired in infrastructure, right? And so, uh, you know, uh, you know, you get a peek. Productivity focus flown joy when you don't have to deal with concerns outside of the business feature and the visibility. One solved. And I know that from personal experience where the frustration you have when you just want to do one thing and you just carved out a door ten things that you just can't do because you have two. Puzzle is a puzzle. They have solved >> it. Love to get your reaction, tio some of the trends that I'm seeing because Kev Ops has been such an important movement, at least from my standpoint, because people could get lost in the what the word means at the end of the day program ability, making infrastructures code, which is the original ethos. Making the officer programmable and invisible, which is one of the themes of nutanix was the dream. That kind of is the objective, right? I mean, to make it programmable. So you don't that stand up all these services and prep and provisions Hard infrastructure stuff? >> Yeah. Yeah. In November, the Unicorn project is coming out. So it's the follow into the Phoenix project, and I'm really trying to capture how great it feels when you could be productive and all of infrastructures taken care of for you by your friends and infrastructure. Right then allows youto you know, have your best energy focusing on solving a business problem, not on how to connect a to B. And we need to expect to see in the yamma files and configuring. You know, all these things that you don't really care about, but you're forced to write, and I think that allows ah, level of productivity and joy. But also, >> uh, >> of, uh, >> is that the idea working relationship between development and infrastructure, where developers are costly thanking their infrastructure, appears for making their life easy >> way. We're joking. Rebecca and I were joking about how we use Siri ate Siri. What's the weather in Palo Alto? This should be an app for the enterprises says Hey, Cube or whatever at NUTANIX or whatever. Give me some more storage. Why isn't it happening? But that's that's that's That's kind of a joke, but it's kind of goal. Oh, increasing the right >> that's just available on demand right on. You certainly don't have to open up thirty tickets these days. Like was so typical ten years ago that that's a modern miracle. >> My question for you is why books? I mean, so here here we have were in this very fast changing technological environment and landscape. And as you said, the Dev Ops is still relatively new. There's it's not. It's a three percent really who understand it. Why use a bunch of dead tree just to get your message across? I was like writing, in fact and an ideal >> month, and I get to spend half the time writing and half the time hanging out with the best in the game, studying now that the greatest in the field. And I think even in this day and age, there's still no Maur effective and viral mechanism spread ideas and books. You know, when people someone says, Hey, I love the finished project I'd loved reading it. It says a couple things right. They probably spent eight hours reading it on. You know, that's a serious commitment. And so I think, Imagine how many impression minutes, you know it takes a purchase. Eight minutes, eight hours of someone's time. And so for things like this, I really do think that you know, the written form is still won most effective ways. Tio communicate ideas. >> Your dream job. You're writing out the best people. What did you What have you learned from the these people. >> Oh, my goodness, >> you could write a book. Yeah, >> but for twenty years, I self identified as an operations person. Even that well, I was formally trained to develop Our got my graduate degree in compiler design in nineteen ninety five. And so for twenty years, I just loved operations. This because that's where the action was. That's what saves happened. But something changed. About four years ago. I learned at programming language called Closure. It's a functional programming languages, a list so very alien to me, the hardest thing I've ever learned. I mean, I must have read and watched eighty hours of video before I wrote one line of code, but it has been the most rewarding thing. And it's just that, uh, exactly brought the joy of development and encoding back into my daily life. So So I guess I should amend my answer. I would say it's half the time writing half the time hand with the best of game and twenty percent coding just because I love to solve problems, right? Yeah, my own problems. So So I have I would thank people I get I you know, I've been able to hang out with and had the privilege to watch because, um, if it weren't for that, I think I would been happy. No, just saying that coding was a thing of the past. Right? S o for that. I'm so grateful. >> How do you use what you learn about in terms of your writing and in your coding and vice a versa. I mean, So how are they different in how are they the same? >> Uh, that's a great question. You >> know, I think >> what's really nice about coding is that it's, uh that's very formal. I mean, in fact, the most extreme. It's all mathematics, right? The books are just a pile of words that may or may not have order and structure. And so, in the worst days, I felt like with the Unicorn Project, I wrote one hundred fifty thousand words. Target work count is one hundred thousand, and I was telling friends I wrote one hundred fifty thousand words that say nothing of significance, right? What have I done The best days and that's I think that's because you have to impose upon it a structure and a point right on the best days is very much like coding. Everything has a spot, right? Uh uh, And you know what to get rid of. So, uh, yeah, I think the fact that coding has structure, I think makes it in some ways an easier for me to work >> with. And what brings you to new tenants next this week? What's the story? Which >> I gotta say I had the privilege and was delighted to take part in what they called deaf days. So if they were gathering developers to learn about educate everyone on how to use, uh, the new Tanis capabilities through AP eyes just like he said, right to help enable automation, and, uh, I just find it very rewarding and fulfilling. I just because even though I think nutanix er as a community is known for being the, uh, the innovators and the, uh so the rebellion a cz productive as you know, that technology's made them to turn into an automated platform. And I think that's another order of magnitude gain in terms of value they could create for their organization. So that was a >> tree. And they've transformed from an operations oriented box company years ago and now officially subscription based software. They're going all software. They're flipping their model upside down, too. >> And it was just a delight to see the developers who are attracted to that one day thing I would recommend to anyone who's interested in development on just being on the cutting edge of what could be done with it. For example, if you have cameras in every store is their way to automate the analysis that you compute dwell times and, you know, Q abandonment rates. I mean, it's like a crash course in modern business practices that I thought was absolutely amazing. >> Well, Jean, you do great work. I've been following you for years. I know you're very humbles. Well, but give a plug. Take a minute to explain the things you're working on. You got a great event. You run, you gotta books. What other things you got going on? Shared the audience. >> Just those two things that were just Everything is about the book right now. The Unicorn project is coming in November. Uh, and so accepts Will be available at the Devil sent five summit in London s O. That's a conference for technology leaders from large, complex organizations and over the years, we've now chronicle of over two hundred case studies by technology leaders from almost every brand across every industry vertical. And it has been such a privilege toe. See, hear the stories and to see how they're being rewarded for their achievements. I mean there being promoted on being given more responsibility. So that is, Ah, treat beyond words >> and it's a revolution. It's a shift that's definitely happening. You're in the bin and doing it for years, and we're documenting it so and you are a CZ. Well, >> I'm looking forward to see you there. >> I just have one final question and this is about something you were saying about how Nutanix is the insurgent and the rebel the rebel in office. How does it How do you recommend it? As a researcher, as an entrepreneur yourself and as someone who's really in this mindset, how do you recommend it? Stay feisty and scrappy and with that mentality at it, especially as it grows and becomes more and more of a behemoth itself? >> Um, there was some statements made about, like how, ten years ago, virtual ization was the one key certification that was guaranteed. You relevant stuff forever in the future. And, yeah, I think there's some basis to say that, you know, that alone is not enough to guarantee lifetime employment. And I think the big lesson is you know, we all have to be continual learners and, you know, every year that goes by, you know, they're Mohr miracles being >> ah ah, >> being created for us to be able to use to solve problems. And if that doesn't think the lesson is if we're not, uh, always focused on being a continual Lerner, Yeah, there's great joy that comes with it and a great peril, You know, if we choose to forego it. >> Well, that's a great note to end. Thank you so much for coming back on the Cube. Gene. >> Thank you so much. And not great CD. Both. Thanks. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for John Furrier. We will have much more from dot next, just after this

>>Hello, everyone. My name is John Jane Shake. I work from Iran. Tous Andi. I am here this afternoon very gratefully with Anders Vulcan, who is VP of technology strategy for cloud bees, a Miranda's partner and a well known company in the space that we're going to be discussing. Anders is also a well known entity in this space, which is continuous integration and continuous delivery. Um, you've seen already today some sessions that focus on specific implementations of continuous integration and delivery, um, particularly around security. And, uh, we think this is a critically important topic for anyone in the cloud space, particularly in this increasingly complicated kubernetes space. To understand, um, Miranda's thanks, Uh, if I can recapitulate our own our own strategy and, uh, and language that with complexity on uncertainty consistently increasing with the depth of the technology stacks that we have to deal with consistently, um um elaborating themselves that navigating this requires, um first three implementation of automation to increase speed, which is what C and C d do. Um, and that this speed ba leveraged toe let us ship and iterate code faster. Since that's ultimately the business that all of us air in one way or another. I would like, I guess, toe open this conversation by asking Onders what does he think of that core strategy? >>You know, I think you know, hitting the security thing, right? Right off the bat. You know, security doesn't happen by accident. You know, security is not something that you know, Like a like a server in a restaurant. You know, Sprinkles a little bit of Parmesan cheese right before they serve you the the food. It's not something you Sprinkle on at the end. It's something that has to be baked in from the beginning, not just in the kitchen, but in the supply chain from from from the very beginning. So the you know it's a feature, and if you don't build it, if you're not going to get an outcome that you're not gonna be happy with and I think the you know it's increasingly it's obviously increasingly important and increasingly visible. You know, the you know, the kinds of security problems that we that we see these days can can be, you know, life altering, for for people that are subject to them and and can be, you know, life or death for a company that that's exposed to it. So it's it's it's very, very important. Thio pay attention to it and to work to achieve that as an explicit outcome of the software delivery process. And I think, you know, C i n c d as as process as tooling as culture plays a big part in that because ah, lot of it has to do with, you know, set things up, right? Um run them the same way over and over, you know, get the machine going. Turned the crane. Now, you wanna you wanna make improvements over over time. You know, it's not just, you know, set it and forget it. You know, we got that set up. We don't have to worry about it anymore, but it really is a question of, you know, get the human out of the loop a lot of the times because if if you're dealing with configuring complex systems, you wanna make sure that you get them set up configured, you know, documented Ideally, you know, as code, whether it's a domain specific language or or something like that. And then that's something that you contest against that you can verify against that you can that you can difficult. And then that becomes the basis for for your, you know, for yourself, for pipelines, for your automation around, you know, kind of the software factory floor. So I think automation is a key aspect of that because it, you know, it takes a lot of the drudgery out of it, for one thing, So now the humans have more time to spend on doing on the on the creative things on the things that we're good at a zoo. Humans and it also make sure that, you know, one of the things that computers are really good at is doing the same thing over and over and over and over. Eso that kind of puts that responsibility into the hands of the entity that that knows how to do that well, which is which is the machine eso I think it's, you know, it's a light. It's a deep, deep topic, obviously, but, you know, automation plays into it. Uh, you know, small batch sizes play into it, you know, being able to test very frequently whether that's testing in. You're kind of you're C I pipeline where you're sort of doing building mostly unit testing, maybe some integration testing, but also in layering in the mawr. Serious kinds of testing in terms of security scanning, penetration, testing, vulnerability, scanning. You know those sorts of things which, you know, maybe you do on every single see I Bill. But most people don't because those things tend toe take a little bit longer on. And you know you want your sea ice cycle to be as fast as possible because that's really in service of the developer who has committed code and wants toe kind of see the thumbs up from the system saying it. And, um, so most organizations most organizations are are are focusing on, you know, making sure that there's a follow on pipeline to follow on set of tests that happened after the C I passes successfully and and that's, you know, where a lot of the security scanning and those sorts of things happen. >>It's a It's an interesting problem. I mean, you mentioned, um, what almost sounds like a Lawrence Lessig Ian kind of idea that, you know, code is law in enterprises today, code particularly see, I code ends up being policy, but At the same time, there's, Ah, it seems to me there's a an alternative peril, which is, as you increase speed, particularly when you become more and more dependent on things like containers and layering technology to provide components and capabilities that you don't have to build yourself to your build pipeline, that there are new vulnerabilities, potentially that creep in and can creep in despite automation. Zor at least 1st. 1st order automation is attempts toe to prevent them from creeping in. You don't wanna you wanna freeze people on a six month old version of a key container image. But on the other hand, if the latest version has vulnerabilities, that could be a problem. >>Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, it's it's a it's a it's a double edged sword. It's two sides of the same coin. I think you know, when I talked to a lot of security people, um, you know, people to do it for a living is supposed to mean I just talk about it, um, that Z not completely true. But, um, the ah, lot of times the problem is old vulnerabilities. The thing that I think keeps a lot of people up at night isn't necessarily that the thing at the tip of the releases for particular, you know, well known open source, library or something like that. But that's gonna burn you all the vast majority of the time. And I want to say, like, 80 85% of the time. The vulnerability is that you that you get hosed by are ones that have been known about for years. And so I think the if I had to pick. So if you know, in that sort of two sides of that coin, if I had to pick, I would say Be aggressive in making sure that your third party dependencies are updated frequently and and continuously right, because that is the biggest, biggest cause of of of security vulnerabilities when it comes to third party code. Um, now you know the famous saying, You know, move fast and break things Well, there's certain things you don't want to break. You know you don't want to break a radiation machine that's going to deliver radio radiotherapy to someone because that will endanger their health. So So those sorts of systems, you know, naturally or subject a little bit more kind of caution and scrutiny and rigor and process those sorts of things. The micro service that I run that shows my little avatar when I log in, that one probably gets a little less group. You know, Andre rightfully so. So I think a lot of it has to do. And somebody once said in a I think it was, Ah, panel. I was on a PR say conference, which was, which was kind of a wise thing to say it was Don't spend a million dollars protecting a $5 assets. You know, you wanna be smart and you wanna you wanna figure out where your vulnerabilities they're going to come from and in my experience, and and you know, what I hear from a lot of the security professionals is pay attention to your supply chain. You're you want to make sure that you're up to date with the latest patches of, of all of your third party, you know, open source or close source. It doesn't really matter. I mean, if anything, you know, open source is is more open. Eso You could inspect things a little bit better than the close source, but with both kinds of streams of code that you consume and and use. You wanna make sure that you're you're more up to date as opposed to a less up to date? Um, that generally will be better. Now, can a new version of the library cause problems? You know, introduce bugs? You know, those sorts of things? Yes. That's why we have tests. That's what we have automated tests, regression, sweets, You know, those sorts of things. And so you wanna, you know, you wanna live in a in a world where you feel the confidence as a as a developer, that if I update this library from, you know, one debt owed at 3 to 1 debt owed at 10 to pick up a bunch of, you know, bug fixes and patches and those sorts of things. But that's not going to break some on demand in the test suites that that will run against that ought to cover that that sort of functionality. And I'd rather be in that world of Oh, yeah, we tried to update to that, but it But it broke the tests and then have to go spend time on that, then say, Oh, it broke the test. So let's not update. And then six months later, you do find out. Oh, geez. There was a problem in one that owed at three. And it was fixed in one. That about four. If only we had updated. Um, you know, you look at the, um you look at some of the highest profile security breaches that are out there that you sort of can trace toe third party libraries. It's almost always gonna be that it was out of date and hadn't been patched. That's so that's my you know, opinionated. Take on that. Sure. >>What are the parts of modern C I c D. As opposed to what one would encounter 56 years ago? Maybe if we can imagine that is being before the micro services and containers revolution really took off. >>You know, I think e think you're absolutely right that, you know, not the whole world is not doing. See, I Yeah, and certainly the whole world is not doing city yet. Um, you know, I think you know, as you say, we kind of live in a little bit of an ivory tower. You know, we live in an echo chamber in a little bit of a bubble Aziz vendors in this space. The truth is that I would say less than 50% of the software organizations out there do real. See, I do real CD. The number's probably less than that. Um, you know, I don't have anything to back that up other than just I talked to a lot of folks and work with, you know, with a lot of organizations and like, Yeah, that team does see I that team does Weekly builds You know, those sorts of things. It's it's really all over the place, Onda. Lot of times there's There's definitely, in my experience, a high correlation there with the amount of time that a team or a code base has been around, and the amount of sort of modern technologies and processes and and and so on that are that are brought to it on. And that sort of makes sense. I mean, if you if you're starting with the green field with a blank sheet of paper, you're gonna adopt, you know, the technologies and the processes and the cultures of today. A knot of 5, 10 15 15 years ago, Um but but most organizations air moving in that direction. Right? Andi, I think you know what? What? What? What's really changed in the last few years is the level of integration between the various tools between the various pieces and the amount of automation that you could bring to bear. I mean, I you know, I remember, you know, five or 10 years ago having all kinds of conversations with customers and prospects and and people of conferences and so on and they said, Oh, yeah, we'd like to automate our our software development life cycle, but, you know, we can't We have a manual thing here. We have a manual thing there. We do this kind of testing that we can automate it, and then we have this system, but it doesn't have any guy. So somebody has to sit and click on the screen. And, you know, and I used to say e used to say I don't accept No for an answer of can you automate this right? Everything. Anything can be automated. Even if you just get the little drinking bird. You know that just pokes the mouse. Everyone something. You can automate it, and I Actually, you know, I had one customer who was like, Okay, and we had a discussion and and and and they said, Well, we had this old Windows tool. We Its's an obscure tool. It's no longer updated, but it's it's it's used in a critical part of the life cycle and it can't be automated. And I said, Well, just install one of those Windows tools that allows you to peek and poke at the, you know, mass with my aunt I said so I don't accept your answer. And I said, Well, unfortunately, security won't allow us to install those tools, Eh? So I had to accept No, at that point, but But I think the big change were one of the biggest changes that's happened in the last few years is the systems now have all I'll have a p i s and they all talk to each other. So if you've gotta, you know, if you if you've got a scanning tool, if you've got a deployment tool, if you have a deployment, you know, infrastructure, you know, kubernetes based or, you know, kind of sitting in front of our around kubernetes thes things. I'll talk to each other and are all automated. So one of the things that's happened is we've taken out a lot of the weight states. A lot of the pauses, right? So if you you know, if you do something like a value stream mapping where you sit down and I'll date myself here and probably lose some of the audience with this analogy. But if you remember Schoolhouse Rock cartoons in in the late seventies, early eighties, there was one which was one of my favorites, and and the guy who did the music for this passed away last year, sadly, But, uh, the it was called How a bill Becomes a Law and they personified the bill. So the bill, you know, becomes a little person and, you know, first time passed by the house and then the Senate, and then the president either signs me or doesn't and or he vetoes, and it really sort of did this and what I always talk about with respect to sort of value stream mapping and talking about your processes, put a GoPro camera on your source codes head, and then follow that source code all the way through to your customer understand all of the stuff that happens to it, including nothing, right? Because a lot of times in that elapsed time, nothing keeps happening, right. If we build software the way we were sorry. If we build cars the way we build software, we would install the radio in a car, and then we would park it in a corner of the factory for three weeks. And then we might remember to test the radio before we ship the car out to the customer. Right, Because that's how a lot of us still develop some for. And I think one thing that's changed in the in the last few years is that we don't have these kind of, Well, we did the bill. So now we're waiting for somebody to create an environment and rack up some hardware and install an operating system and install. You know, this that and the other. You know, that that went from manual to we use Scheffer puppet to do it, which then went to we use containers to do it, which then went to we use containers and kubernetes to do it. So whole swaths of elapsed time in our software development life cycles basically went to nothing, right and went to the point where we can weaken, weaken, configure them way to the left and and and follow them all the way through. And that the artifact that we're delivering isn't necessarily and execute herbal. It could be a container, right? So now that starts to get interesting for us in terms of being able to test against that container scan against that container, def. Against that container, Um, you know, and it, you know, it does bring complexity to in terms of now you've got a layered file system in there. Well, what all is in there, you know, And so there's tools for scanning those kinds of things, But But I think that one of the biggest things that's happened is a lot of the natural pause. Points are no longer natural. Pause points their unnatural pause points, and they're now just delays in yourself for delivery. And so what? What a lot of organizations are working on is kind of getting to the point where those sorts of things get get automated and connected, and that's now possible. And it wasn't 55 or 10 years ago. >>So It sounds like a great deal of the speed benefit, which has been quantified many different ways. But is once you get one of these systems working, as we've all experienced enormous, um, is actually done by collapsing out what would have been unused time in a prior process or non paralyze herbal stuff has been made parallel. >>I remember doing a, uh, spent some time with a customer, and they did a value stream mapping, and they they found out at the end that of the 30 days of elapsed time they were spending three days on task. Everything else was waiting, waiting for a build waiting foran install, waiting for an environment, waiting for an approval, having meetings, you know, those sorts of things. And I thought to myself, Oh, my goodness, you know, 90% of the elapsed time is doing nothing. And I was talking to someone Gene Kim, actually, and I said, Oh my God, it was terrible that these you know, these people are screwed and he says, 0 90%. That's actually pretty good, you know? So So I think you know, if you if you think today, you know, if you If you if you look at the teams that are doing just really pure continuous delivery, you know, write some code committed, gets picked up by the sea ice system and passes through CIA goes through whatever coast, see I processing, you need to do security scanning and so on. It gets staged and it gets pushed into production. That stuff can happen in minutes, right? That's new. That's different. Now, if you do that without having the right automated gates in place around security and and and and those sorts of things you know, then you're living a little bit dangerously, although I would argue not necessarily any more dangerously, than just letting that insecure coat sit around for a week before your shipment, right? It's not like that problem is going to fix itself if you just let it sit there, Um, but But, you know, you definitely operated at a higher velocity. Now that's a lot of the benefit that you're tryingto trying to get out of it, right? You can get stuff out to the market faster, or if you take a little bit more time, you get more out to the market in, in in the same amount of time you could turn around and fix problems faster. Um, if you have a vulnerability, you can get it fixed and pushed out much more quickly. If you have a competitive threat that you need to address, you can you know, you could move that that much faster if you have a critical bug. You know, I mean, all security issues or bugs, sort of by definition. But, you know, if you have a functionality bug, you can you can get that pushed out faster. Eso So I think kind of all factors of the business benefit from from this increase in speed. And I think developers due to because anybody you know, any human that has a context switch and step away from something for for for, you know, duration of time longer than a few minutes, you know, you're gonna you're gonna you're gonna you're gonna have to load back up again. And so that's productivity loss. Now, that's a soft cost. But man, is it Is it expensive and is a painful So you see a lot of benefit there. Think >>if you have, you know, an organization that is just starting this journey What would you ask that organization to consider in orderto sort of move them down this path? >>It's by far the most frequent and almost always the first question I get at the end of the talk or or a presentation or something like that is where do we start? How do I know where to start? And and And there's a couple of answers to that. What one is Don't boil the ocean, right? Don't try to fix everything all at once. You know that because that's not agile, right? The be agile about your transformation Here, you know, pick, pick a set of problems that you have and and make a, you know, basically make a burn down list and and do them in order. So find find a pain point that you have right and, you know, just go address that and and try to make it small and actionable and especially early on when you're trying to affect change. And you're tryingto convinced teams that this is the way to go and you may have some naysayers, or you may have people who are skeptical or have been through these processes before that have been you know failures released, not the successes that they that they were supposed to be. You know, it's important to have some wind. So what I always say is look, you know, if you have a pebble in your shoe, you've got a pain point. You know how to address that. You know, you're not gonna address that by changing out your wardrobe or or by buying a new pair of shoes. You know, you're gonna address that by taking your shoe off, shaking it until the pebble falls out there putting the shoe back on. So look for those kinds of use cases, right? So if you're engineers are complaining that whenever I check in the build is broken and we're not doing see, I well, then let's look at doing C I Let's do see eye, right? If you're not doing that. And for most organizations, you know, setting up C I is a very manageable, very doable thing. There's lots of open source tooling out there. There's lots of commercial tooling out there. Thio do that to do it for small teams to do it for large teams and and everything in between. Um, if the problem is Gosh, Every time we push a change, we break something. You know where every time something works in staging it doesn't work in production. Then you gotta look at Well, how are these systems being configured? If you're If you're configuring them manually, stop automate the configuration of them. Um, you know, if you're if you're fixing system manually, don't you know, as a friend of mine says, don't fix, Repave? Um, you know, you don't wanna, you know, there's a story of, you know how how Google operates in their data centers. You know, they don't they don't go look for a broken disk drive and swap it out. You know, when it breaks, they just have a team of people that, like once a month or something, I don't know what the interval is. They just walked through the data center and they pull out all the dead stuff and they throw it out, and what they did was they assume that if the scale that they operate, things are always going to break physical things are always going to break. You have to build a software to assume that breakage and any system that assumes that we're going to step in when a disk drive is broken and fix it so that we can get back to running just isn't gonna work at scale. There's a similarity. There's sort of ah, parallel to that in in software, which is you know, any time you have these kinds of complex systems, you have to assume that they're gonna break and you have to put the things in place to catch those things. The automated testing, whether it's, you know, whether you have 10,000 tests that you that you've written already or whether you have no tests and you just need to go right, your first test that that journey, you've got to start somewhere. But my answer thio their questions generally always just start small, pick a very specific problem. Build a plan around it, you know, build a burned down list of things that you wanna address and just start working your way down that the same way that you would for any, you know, kind of agile project, your transformation of your own processes of your own internal systems. You should use agile processes for those as well, because if you if you go off for six months and and build something. By the time you come back, it's gonna be relevant. Probably thio the problems that you were facing six months ago. >>A Then let's consider the situation of, ah, company that's using C I and maybe sea ice and C d together. Um, and they want to reach what you might call the next level. Um, they've seen obvious benefits they're interested in, you know, in increasing their investment in, you know and cycles devoted to this technology. You don't have to sell them anymore, but they're looking for a next direction. What would you say that direction should be? I >>think oftentimes what organizations start to do is they start to look at feedback loops. So on DAT starts to go into the area of sort of metrics and analytics and those sorts of things. You know what we're we're always concerned about? You know, we're always affected by things like meantime to recovery. Meantime, the detection, what are our cycle times from, you know, ideation, toe codecommit. What's the cycle? Time from codecommit the production, those sorts of things. And you know you can't change what you don't measure eso so a lot of times the next step after kind of getting the rudimentary zoo of C I Orsini or some combination of both in places start to measure. Stop you, Um, and and then but But there. I think you know, you gotta be smart about it, because what you don't want to do is kind of just pull all the metrics out that exists. Barf them up on the dashboard. And the giant television screens say boom metrics, right. You know, Mike, drop go home. That's the wrong way to do it. You want to use metrics very specifically to achieve outcomes. So if you have an outcome that you want to achieve and you can tie it to a metric start looking at that metric and start working that problem once you saw that problem, you can take that metric. And you know, if that's the metric you're showing on the big you know, the big screen TV, you can pop that off and pick the next one and put it up there. I I always worry when you know a little different when you're in a knock or something like that. When when you're looking at the network stuff and so on. But I'm always leery of when I walk into to a software development organization. You know, just a Brazilian different metrics, this whole place because they're not all relevant. They're not all relevant at the same time. Some of them you wanna look at often, some of them you just want to kind of set an alarm on and make sure that, you know, I mean, you don't go down in your basement every day to check that the sump pump is working. What you do is you put a little water detector in there and you have an alarm go off if the water level ever rises above a certain amount. Well, you want to do the same thing with metrics, right? Once you've got in the water out of your basement, you don't have to go down there and look at it all the time. You put the little detector in, and then you move on and you worry about something else. And so organizations as they start to get a little bit more sophisticated and start to look at the analytics, the metrics, um, start to say, Hey, look, if our if our cycle time from from, you know, commit to deploy is this much. And we want it to be this much. What happens during that time, And where can we take slices out of that? You know, without without affecting the outcomes in terms of quality and so on, or or if it's, you know, from from ideation, toe codecommit. You know what? What can we do there? Um, you start to do that. And and then as you get those sort of virtuous cycles of feedback loops happening, you know, you get better and better and better, but you wanna be careful with metrics, you know, you don't wanna, you know, like I said, you don't wanna barf a bunch of metrics up just to say, Look, we got metrics. Metrics are there to serve a particular outcome. And once you've achieved that outcome, and you know that you can continue to achieve that outcome, you turn it into an alarm or a trigger, and you put it out of sight. And you know that. You know, you don't need to have, like, a code coverage metric prominently displayed you you pick a code coverage number that you're happy with you work to achieve that. Once you achieve it, you just worry about not going below that threshold again. So you can take that graph off and just put a trigger on this as if we ever get below this, you know, raising alarm or fail a build or fail a pipeline or something like that and then start to focus on improving another man. Uh, or another outcome using another matter >>makes enormous sense. So I'm afraid we are getting to be out of time. I want to thank you very much on this for joining us today. This has been certainly informative for me, and I hope for the audience, um, you know, thank you very, very much for sharing your insulin.

>> Narrator: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with digital coverage of Actifio Data Driven 2020, brought to you by Actifio. >> Hi everybody this is Dave Vellante, full of preview of Actifio Data Driven, and with me is Brian Reagan who is a long time cube alumni, good friend. Brian, awesome to see you thanks for coming on and help us set up Data Driven >> Dave it's always a pleasure to be here, thanks for having me. >> So this is one of our favorite events of the season, not only because it's historically been in Boston, but it's a really good intimate event, lot of customer content. Unfortunately this year, of course everything has gone virtual but tell us about that, what do you guys got planned for Data Driven this year? >> Well again we're delighted to be able to put the show on, in spite of all of the challenges of travel and face to face. As you know from years past, Data Driven has always been sort of by the customers for the customers, very much an event that is driven around understanding how customers are using data strategically, and how Actifio is helping them do that to power their businesses. This year is no different, I think what we've done is we've taken the best of the physical events, which is really facilitating fireside chats and panels of people using our technology to move the business forward with data, but also added a lot of things that frankly are impossible to do when you're strained by a physical event, which is be able to run a series of on demand technical sessions. Our technical tracks are always standing room only, so now we can offer more content, more discreet package content that can be consumed the day of the event and on for a year plus after the event. So we're excited to really sort of mix the best of both worlds virtual and the forums that have worked so well for us in the physical events. >> Well it's like I said I mean, lots of these events are sort of vendor fests, but what you do with Data Driven is you bring in the customer's voice. And I remember last year in theCUBE, we had Holly st. Clair who was with the state of Massachusetts, she was awesome. We had a guest from DraftKings, which was really, really tremendous. Of course, you see what's happening with those guys now just exploding. >> Exactly. >> But we also had a lot of fun, when of course Ash comes on, and all the Actifio folk, but we had Frank Gens on, the first and only time we've ever had him on theCUBE, he's now retired from IDC, I guess semiretired. We had Duplessie on, which was a lot of fun. So it's just a good vibe. >> Yeah, we made a conscious decision to your point not to avoid the traditional vendor fest, and bludgeoning people with PowerPoint throughout the day, and really wanted to make it spin it around, and have the customers tell their stories in their own words, and really talk about the themes that are both common, in terms of challenges, ways that they've addressed those challenges, but also dig into the real implications of when they do solve these challenges, what are the unintended consequences? It's sort of like the... In a lot of ways I think about the journey that customers went through with VMware and with the ability to spin up VMs effortlessly, was a fantastic first step, and then all of a sudden they realized they had all of these spun up Vms that were consuming resources that they didn't necessarily had thought about at the very beginning. I think that our customers as they progress through their journey with Actifio, once they realize the power of being able to access data and deliver data, no matter how big it is, in any form factor in any cloud, there's incredible power there, but there also comes with that a real need to make sure that the governance and controls and management systems are in place to properly deliver that. Particularly today when everything is distributed, everything is essentially at arms length, so that's part of the fun of these events is really being able to hear all of the ways these unique customers are, adding value, delivering value, gaining value, from the platform. >> What's it's interesting you mentioned VMs, it was like life changing when you saw your first VM get spun up and you're like, wow, this is unbelievable, and then it was so easy to spin up. and then you just save VM creep and copy creep. >> Right. >> And you're seeing some similar things now with cloud I mean example is the cloud data warehouses is so easy to spin those things up now. The CFOs are looking at the bill going Whoa, what are we doing here? >> (laughs) >> You're going to see the same thing >> Exactly. >> with containers as you begin to persist containers, you're going to have the same problem. So you guys created the category, it's always a marketing executives dreams to be able to create a category. You guys created the Copy Data Management category, and of course, you've extended that. But that was really good, it was something that you guys set forth and then all the analysts picked up on it, people now use that as a term and it kind of resonates with everybody. >> Right, right. It was bittersweet but also very satisfying to start to see other vendors come out with their own Copy Data Management offerings, and so yes the validating that in fact this is a real problem in the enterprise continues to be a real problem in the enterprise, and by using technologies that Actifio really pioneered and patented quite a bit of foundational technologies around, we're able to help customers address those copy data challenges, those spiraling costs of managing all of these duplicate, physical instances of data. And to your point, to some degree when you're on-prem in a data center and you've already bought your storage array. Okay, I'm consuming 20% more of the Ray or 100% more of the array than I really need to be, but I've already paid for the array. When it comes to cloud, those bills are adding up hourly, daily, weekly, monthly, and those are real costs, and so in many ways cloud is actually highlighting the power and frankly the problem of copy data, far more than the on-prem phenomenon ever did. >> Yeah I was on the phone with a former CIO, COO now of a healthcare organization, and he was saying to me there's a dark side of CapEx to OPEX, which is now that he's a COO he's like really concerned about the income statement and the variability of those costs, and so to your point I mean it's a big issue, the convenience seems to be outweighing some of that concern but nonetheless lack of predictability is a real concern there. >> Absolutely, absolutely. And I think we see that... You mentioned data lakes, and whether you call it a data lake or you just call it a massive data instance, one of the speakers of Data Driven this year is a customer of our Century Data Systems down in Florida. And they have 120 terabyte database that actually they're using, and this is an incredible story that we're excited to have them share with the world during Data Driven. They're using it to help the federal government get better data faster on COVID treatments and the efficacy of those treatments, and so to even consider being able to rapidly access and manage 120 terabyte instance. It breaks the laws of physics frankly. But again with Copy Data Management, we have the ability to help them really extend and really enhance their business and ultimately enhance the data flows that are hopefully going to accelerate the access to a vaccine for us in North American and worldwide, quite frankly. >> That's awesome, that's awesome. Now let's talk a little bit more about Data Driven what we can expect. Of course, the last couple of years you've been the host of Data Driven. They pulled a Ricky gervais' on you >> (Laughs loudly) like get the golden gloves, he's no longer being invited to host, but I think probably for different reasons, but what are some the major themes that we can expect this year? >> Yeah, we were disappointed that we couldn't get Tina Fey and Amy Poehler. >> (laughs quietly) I think we decided that in a virtual construct, the host duties were pretty amenable. So among the many things I talked about Sentry Data Systems and we have many customers who are going to be joining us and telling their stories. And again from accelerating data analytics to accelerating DevOps initiatives, to accelerating a move to the cloud, we're going to hear all of those different use cases described. One of the things that is different this year and we're really excited. Gene Kim sort of the author and noted DevOps guru, author of The Phoenix Project and The Unicorn Project, he's going to be joining us. We had previously intended to do a road show with Gene this year and obviously those plans got changed a bit. So really excited to have him join us, talk about his point of view around DevOps. Certainly it's a hugely important use case for us, really important for many of our customers, and actually registrant's between now and the event, which is September 15th and 16th, we'll get an eCopy an e-book copy of his Unicorn Project book. So we're eager to have people register and if they haven't already read him then I think they're going to be really pleasantly surprised to see how accessible his materials are, and yet how meaningful and how powerful they can be in terms of articulating the journeys that many of these businesses are going through. >> Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up. I'm stucked I have not read that material, but I've heard a lot about it, and when I signed up I saw that, said great I'm going to get the free book. So I'm going to check that out, >> Yeah It's obviously a very, very hot topic. Well Brian, I really appreciate you coming on, and setting up the event. What are the details? So where do I go to sign up? When is the event? What's the format? Give us the lowdown. >> It is September 15th and 16th, actifio.com will guide you through the registration process. You'll be able to create the event based on the content that you're eager to participate in. And again not only on the 15th and 16th, but then into the future, you'll be able to go back and re access or access content that you didn't have the time to do during the event window. So we're really excited to be able to offer that as an important part of the event. >> Fantastic and of course theCUBE will be there doing its normal wall to wall coverage. Of course, this time virtual, and you'll see us on social media with all the clips and all the work on Silicon Angle. So Brian great to see you and we will see you online in September. >> Thanks, Dave. >> All right, and thank you. Go to actifio.com, sign up register for Data Driven, this is Dave Vellante for theCUBE, we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>>from around the globe. It's the queue with digital coverage of active eo data driven 2020 Brought to you by activity. >>Hi, I'm Brian Reagan from Active Seo. And I'd like to welcome you to join us at Data Driven 2020 this year. Online as in years past, it's all about the customer from the bear voice to you talking about how they're solving their cloud Dev Ops Analytics and data protection challenges using the activity of platform and helping move their business forward this year. We're also excited to welcome Gene Kim Noted Dev Ops author in Guru on his E book. The Unicorn Project is available for free if you register today, so join us September 15th and 16th for data driven 2020. We look forward to seeing you online. >>Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

>>Live from Barcelona, Spain. It's the Cube covering Cisco Live 2020 right to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners. >>Welcome back, everyone to the Cube's live coverage Day four of four days of wall to wall action here in Barcelona, Spain, for Cisco Live. 2020. I'm John Furrier with my co host Dave Volante, with a very special guest here to wrap up Cisco Live. The president of Europe, Middle East Africa and Russia. Francisco Wendy Mars Cube Alumni. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on to. I kind of put a book into the show here. Thanks for joining us. >>It's absolutely great to be here. Thank you. >>So what a transformation. As Cisco's business model of continues to evolve, we've been saying brick by brick, we still think big move coming. I think there's more action. I can sense the walls talking to us like Cisco live in the US and more technical announcement. In the next 24 months, you can see you can see where it's going. It's cloud, it's APS. It's policy based program ability. It's really a whole another business model shift for you and your customers. Technology shift in the business model shift. So I want to get your perspective this year. Opening. Keynote. Oh, you let it off Talking about the philosophy of the business model, but also the first presenter was not a networking guy. It was an application person. App dynamics. Yep, this is a shift. What's going on with Cisco? What's happening? What's the story? >>You know, if if you look for all of the work that we're doing is is really driven by what we see from requirements from our customers to change, that's happening in the market and it is all around. You know, if you think digital transformation is the driver organizations now are incredibly interested in, how do they capture that opportunity? How do they use technology to help them? But, you know, if you look at it, really, there's the three items that are so important it's the business model evolution. It's actually the business operations for for organizations. Plus, there people, they're people in the communities within that those three things working together. And if you look at it with, it's so exciting with application dynamics there because if you look for us within Cisco, that linkage off the application layer through into the infrastructure into the network. And bringing that linkage together is the most powerful thing because that's the insights and the value our customers are looking for. >>You know, we've been talking about the the innovation sandwich, you know, you got data in the middle and you've got technology and applications underneath. That's kind of what's going on here, but I'm glad you brought up the part about business model. This is operations and people in communities. During your keynote, you had a slide that laid out three kind of pillars. Yes, people in communities, business model and business operations. There was no 800 series in there. There was no product discussions. This is fundamentally the big shift that business models are changing. I tweeted provocatively, the killer wrap in digital business model. Because you think about it. The applications are the business. What's running under the covers is the technology, but it's all shifting and changing, so every single vertical every single business is impacted by. This is not like a certain secular thing in the industry. This is a real change. Can you describe how those three things are operating with that can >>sure. I think if you look from, you know, so thinking through those three areas. If you look at the actual business model itself, our business models is organizations are fundamentally changing and they're changing towards as consumers. We are all much more specific about what we want. We have incredible choice in the market. We are more informed than ever before. But also we are interested in the values of the organizations that we're getting the capability from us as well as the products and the services that naturally we're looking to gain. So if you look in that business model itself, this is about, you know, organizations making sure they stay ahead from a competitive standpoint about the innovation of portfolio that they're able to bring, but also that they have a strong, strong focus around the experience, that they're customer gains from an application, a touch standpoint that all comes through those different channels, which is at the end of the day, the application. Then if you look as to how do you deliver that capability through the systems, the tools, the processes? As we all evolve, our businesses have to change the dynamic within your organization to cope with that. And then, of course, in driving any transformation, the critical success factor is your people and your culture. You need your teams with you. The way teams operate now is incredibly different. It's no longer command and control. It's agile capability coming together. You need that to deliver on any transformation. Never, never mind. Let it be smooth, you know, in the execution they're all three together. >>But what I like about that model and I have to say, this is, you know, 10 years of doing the Cube, you see that marketing in the vendor community often leads what actually happens. Not surprising as we entered the last decade, there's a lot of talk about Cloud. Well, it kind of was a good predictor. We heard a lot about digital transformation. A lot of people roll their eyes and think it's a buzzword, but we really are. I feel like exiting this cloud era into the digital era. It feels, really, and there are companies that get it and are leaning in. There are others that maybe you're complacent. I'm wondering what you're seeing in Europe just in terms of everybody talks digital, every CEO wants to get it right. But there is complacency. Their financial services said Well, I'm doing pretty well, not on my watch. Others say, Hey, we want to be the disruptors and not get disrupted. What are you seeing in the region? In terms of that sentiment, >>I would say across the region, you know, there will always be verticals and industries that slightly more advanced than others. But I would say that the bulk of conversations that I'm engaged in independence of the industry or the country in which we're having that conversation in there is a acceptance off transfer. Digital transformation is here. It is affecting my business. I if I don't disrupt, I myself will be disrupted and we challenged Help me. So I You know, I'm not disputing the end state and the guidance and support soon drive the transition and risk mitigated manner, and they're looking for help in that there's actually pressure in the board room now around a what are we doing within within organizations within the enterprise service, right of the public sector, any type of style of company. There's that pressure point in the board room of Come on, we need to move it speed. >>Now the other thing about your model is technology plays a role and contribute. It's not the be all end. All that plays a role in each of those the business model of business operations developing and nurturing communities. Can you add more specifics? What role do you see technology in terms of advancing those three years? >>So I think, you know, if you look at it, technology is fundamental to all of those fears in regard. Teoh Theo innovation that differentiation technology could bring the key challenges. One being able to apply it in a manner where you can really see differentiation of value within the business. So and then the customer's organization. Otherwise, it's technology for the sake of technology. So we see very much a movement now to this conversation of talk about the use case, the use cases, the way by which that innovation could be used to deliver value to the organization on also different ways by which a company will work. Look at the collaboration Kate Capability that we announced earlier this week of helping to bring to life that agility. Look at the the APP D discussion of helping the link the layer of the application into the infrastructure of the network to get to root, cause identification quickly and to understand where you may have a problem before you actually arises and causes downtime many, many ways. >>I think the agility message has always been a technical conversation. Agile methodology, technology, softer development, No problem check. That's 10 years ago. But business agility is moving from a buzz word to reality. Exactly. That's what you're kind of getting. >>Their teams have. Teams operate, how they work and being able to be quick, efficient, stand up, stand down and operate in that way. >>You know, we were kind of thinking out loud on the Cube and just riffing with Fabio Gori on your team on Cisco's team about clarification with you, Gene Kim around kind of real time. What was interesting is we're like, Okay, it's been 13 years since the iPhone, and so 13 years of mobile in your territory in Europe, Middle East Africa mobility has been around before the iPhone, so more advanced data privacy much more advanced in your region. So you you you have a region that's pretty much I think, the tell signs for what's going on North American around the world. And so you think about that. You say Okay, how is value created? How the economics changing this is really the conversation about the business model is okay. If the value activities are shifting and being more agile and the economics are changing with SAS, if someone's not on this bandwagon is not an end state discussion, very. It's done Deal. >>Yeah, it's But I think also there were some other conversation which, which are very prevalent here, is in the region so around trust around privacy law, understanding compliance. If you look at data where data resides, portability of that data GDP our came from Europe has pushed out on those conversations will continue as we go over time. And if I also look at, you know, the dialogue that you saw, you know, within World Economic Forum around sustainability that is becoming a key discussion now within government here in Spain, you know, from a climate standpoint and many other areas >>as well. David, I've been riffing around this whole where the innovation is coming from. It's coming from your region, not so much the us US. We've got some great innovations. But look at Blockchain. Us is like, don't touch it pretty progressive outside United States. A little dangerous to, But that's where innovation is coming from, and this is really the key that we're focused on. I want to get your thoughts on. How do you see it going? Next level? The next level. Next. Gen Business model. What's your What's your vision? >>So I think there'll be lots of things if we look at things like it with the introduction. Introduction of artificial intelligence, Robotics capability five g of course, you know, on the horizon we have Mobile World Congress here in Barcelona a few weeks time. And if you talked about with the iPhone, the smartphone, of course, when four g was introduced, no one knew what the use case where that would be. It was the smartphone, which wasn't around at that time. So with five G and the capability there, that will bring again yet more change to the business model for different organizations and capability and what we can bring to market >>the way we think about AI privacy data ownership becomes more important. Some of the things you were talking about before. It's interesting what you're saying. John and Wendy, the GDP are set this standard and and you're seeing in the US they're stovepipes for that standard California is gonna do want every state is gonna have a difference, and that's going to slow things down. It's going to slow down progress. Do you see sort of an extension of GDP, our like framework of being adopted across the region, potentially accelerating some of these sticky issues and public policy issues that can actually move the market forward? >>I think I think that will because I think there'll be more and more if you look at this is terminology of data. Is the new oil What do you do with data? How do you actually get value from that data? Make intelligent business decisions around that? So, yeah, that's critical. But yet if you look for all of ours, we are extremely passionate about where's our data used again? Back to trust and privacy. You need compliance, you need regulation. And I think this is just the beginning off how we will see that >>evolving. You know, when you get your thoughts. David, I've been riffing for 10 years around the death of storage. Long live storage. But data needs to be stored somewhere. Networking is the same kind of conversation just doesn't go away. In fact, there's more pressure now to get the smartphone. That was 13 years ago, before that. Mobility, data and Video. Now super important driver. That's putting more pressure on you guys. And so hey, we did well, networking. So it's kind of like Moore's Law. More networking, more networking. So video and data are now big your thoughts on video and data video. >>But if you look out the Internet of the future, you know what? So if you look for all of us now, we are also demanding as individuals around capability and access of. That's an Internet of the future. The next phase. We want even more so they'll be more more requirement for speed availability, that reliability of service, the way by which we engage in we communicate. There's some fundamentals there, so continuing to grow, which is which is so, so exciting force. >>So you talk about digital transformation that's obviously in the mind of C level executives. I got to believe security is up. There is a topic one other. What's the conversation like in the corner office when you go visit your customers? >>So I think there's a There's a huge excitement around the opportunity, realizing the value of the of the opportunity on. You know, if you look at top of mind conversations around security around, making sure that you can make taint, maintain that fantastic customer experience because if you don't the customer go elsewhere, How do you do that? How do you enrich at all times and also looking at market? Jason sees, you know, as you go in a new tour at senior levels, within, within organizations independent of the industry in which they're in. They're a huge amount of commonalities that we see across those of consistent problems by which organizations are trying to solve. And actually, one of the big questions is what's the pace of change that I should operate us on? When is it too fast? And one is one of my too slow and trying to balance that is exciting but also a challenge for a company. >>So you feel like sentiment. There's still strong, even though we're 10 years into this, this bull market you get Brexit, China tensions with US US elections. But but generally you see sentiment still pretty strong demand. >>So I would say that the the the excitement around technology, the opportunity that is there around technology in its broader sense is greater than ever before. And I think it's on all of us to be able to help organizations to understand how they can consume and see value from us. But it's a fantastic times, >>gets economic indicators way. So >>I know you >>have to be careful, >>but really, the real I think I'm trying to get to is is the mindset of the CEO. The corner office right now is it is that we're gonna we're gonna grow short term by cutting or do we going to be aggressive and go after this incremental opportunity? And it's probably both. You see a lot of automation in cars >>both, and I think if you look fundamentally for organizations, it's it's the three things helped me to make money, how to save money, keep me out of trouble. So those are the pivots they all operate with on, you know, depending on where an organization is in its journey, whether they're start up there in the middle, the more mature and some of the different dynamics and the markets in which they operate in a well, there's all different variables, you know? So it's it's it's mixed. >>Wendy, thanks so much to spend the time to come on. The Cube really appreciate great keynote folks watching. If you haven't seen the keynote opening section, that's good. Second, the business model. I think it's really right on. I think that's gonna be a conversation will continue. So thanks for sharing that before we look. Before we leave, I want to just ask a question around, What? What's going on for you here in Barcelona? As the show winds down, you had all your activities. Take us in the day in the life of what you do. Customer meetings. What were some of those conversations? Take us inside inside. What? What goes on for you here? >>I tell you, it's been an amazing It's been amazing few days, So it's a combination of customer conversations around some of the themes We just talked about conversations with partners. There's investor companies that we invest in a Cisco that I've been spending some time with on also spending time with the teams as well. The definite zone, you know, is amazing. We have this afternoon the closing session where we got a fantastic, um, external guests who's coming in is going to be really exciting as well. And then, of course, the party tonight and will be announcing the next location, which I'm not going to reveal now. Later on today, >>we kind of figured it out because that's our job is to break news, but we're not gonna break it for you to have that. Hey, thank you so much for coming on. Really appreciate. When any market in Europe, Middle East Africa and Russia for Cisco she's got her hand on the pulse and the future is the business model. That's what's going on. Fundamentally radical change across the board in all areas. This is the Cube, bringing you all the action here in Barcelona. Thanks for watching. >>Yeah, yeah,

>>Live from Barcelona, Spain. It's the Cube covering Cisco Live 2020 right to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners. >>Welcome back to the Cube's live coverage here at Cisco Live 2020 in Barcelona, Spain. I'm jumpers student of cube coverage. We've got a lot of stuff going on in Cisco Multi cloud and cloud technology. Quantification of Cisco's happening in real time is happening right now. Cloud is here here to stay. We got two great guests unpack what's going on in cloud native and networking and applications as the modern infrastructure and software evolves. We got you. Gene Kim, global product marketing. Compute Storage at Cisco Global marketing manager and Rob Gori, senior director. Cloud Solution Marketing Guys come back. Thanks for coming back. Appreciate it. Great to see you Barcelona guys. So, Bobby, we've had multiple conversations and you see that from the sales force given kind of the the discussion in the motivation Cloud is big. It's here. It's here to stay. It's changing. Cisco AP I first week here in all the products, it's changing everything. What's the story now? What's going on? >>I would say you know the reason why we're so excited about the launch here in Barcelona is because this time it's all about the application of spirits. I mean, the last two years we've being announcing some really exciting stuff in the cloud space where I think about all the announcements with AWS is the Googles the azure, so the world. But this time it really boils down to making sure that is incredibly hyper distributive world. There is an application explosion. Ultimately, we will help for the right operation stools and infrastructure management tools to ensure that the right application experience will be guaranteed for the end customer. And that's incredibly important because at the end, what really really matters is that you will ensure the best possible digital experience to your customer. Otherwise, ultimately nothing's gonna work. And, of course, you're gonna lose your brand and your customers. >>One of the main stories that we're covering is the transformation of the industry. Also, Cisco and one of the highlights to me was the opening keynote. You had APP dynamics first, not networking. Normally it's like what's in the hood? Routers and the gear. No, it was about the applications. This is the story we're seeing. It's kind of a quiet unveiling. Its not get a launch, but it's evolving very quickly. Can you share what's going on behind this? All this? >>Absolutely. It's exactly along the lines of what I was saying a second ago, in the end that the reason why we're driving the announcement, if you want from the application experience side of the House, is because with Appdynamics, we already have very, very powerful application performance management, which it's evolving extremely rapidly. First of all, Appdynamics can correlate not just the application for four months to some technology, maybe eyes, but through actual business KP eyes. So app dynamics can give you, for instance, serial time visibility off, say, a marketing funnel conversion rates transactions that you're having in your in your business operation. Now we're introducing an incredibly powerful new capability that takes the bar to a whole new level. And that's the Appdynamics experience. Journey maps. What are those? It's actually the ability off, focusing not so much on front ends and back ends and the business performances, but really focusing on what the user is seen in front of his or her screen. And so what really matters is capturing the journey that given user of your application is being and understanding whether the experience is the one that you want to deliver or you have, like, a sudden drop off somewhere. And you know why this is important because in the end we've been talking about is the problem of the application, performance issues or performance. It could be a badly designed page. How do you know? And so this is a very precious information they were giving to application developers know, just through the idea. Ops, guys, that is incredibly gracious. >>Okay, you want to get this in. So you just brought up that journey. So that's part of the news. Just break down real quick. One minute what the news is. >>Yeah, so we have three components. The 1st 1 as you as you correctly pointed out, is really the introduction of the application. The journey maps, right. The experience journey maps. That's very, very important. The second he's way are actually integrating Appdynamics with the inter site. Actually, inter site the optimization manager, the workload optimization, workload, optimizer. And so because there is exchange of data between the two now, you are in a position to immediately understand whether you have an application problem. We have a worker problem for structure problem, which is after me, where you really need to do as quickly as you can. And thirdly, way have introduced a new version of our hyper flex platform, which is hyper converge flagship platform for Cisco with a fully containerized version, the tax free if you want as well, that is a great platform for containerized applications. >>So you do and what I've been talking to customers last few years. When they go through their transformational journey, there's the modernization they need to do. The pattern I've seen most successful is first, modernize the platform often HD I is, you know, an option for that. It really simplifies the environment, reduces the silos on, has more of that operational model that looks closer to what the cloud experience is. And then, if I've got a good platform, then I can modernize the applications on top of it. But often those two have been a little bit disconnected. It feels like the announcements now that they are coming together. What are you seeing? What're you hearing? How your solutions at solving this issue >>exactly. I mean, as we've been talking to our customers, a lot of them are going through a different application. Modernizations and kubernetes and containers is extremely important to them. And to build a container cloud on Prem is extremely one of their needs. And so there's three distinctive requirements that they've kind of talk to us about. A lot of it has to be ableto it's got to be very simple, very turnkey, fully integrated, ready to turn on the other. One is something that's very agile, right? Very Dev Ops friendly and the third being a very economic container cloud on prim. So as you mentioned, High Flex Application Platform takes our hyper converge system and build on top of it a integrated kubernetes platform to deliver a container as a service type capability. And it provides a full stack, fully supported element platform for our customers, and one of the best great aspects of it is it's all managed from inter site, from the physical infrastructure to the hyper converge layer to all the way to the container management. So it's very exciting to have that full stack management and inter site as well. >>It's great to see you, John and I have been following this kubernetes wave since the early early days. Fabio mentioned integrations with the Amazons and Googles of the world because, you know, a few years ago you talk to customers and they're like, Oh, well, I'm just going to build my own community. Nobody ever said that is easy now. Just delivering as a service seems to be the way most people want it. So if I'm doing it on Amazon or Google, they've got their manage service that I could do that or that there partners we're working with. So explain what you're doing to make it simpler in the data center environment. Because on Prem absolutely is a piece of that hybrid equation that customers need. >>Yes, so, essentially from the customer experience perspective, as I mentioned, very fairly turnkey right from the hyper flex application platform we're taking are happening for software were integrating a application virtualization layer on top of it analytics k VM based. And then on top of that, we're integrating the kubernetes stack on top of as well. And so, in essence, right? It's a fully curated kubernetes stack that has all the different elements from the networking from the storage elements and provide that in a very turnkey way. And as I mentioned, the inter site management is really providing that simplicity that customers need for that management. >>Fabio This is the previous announcements you've made with the public clouds. This just ties into those hybrid environments. That's exactly a few years ago. People like, Oh, is there going to be a distribution that wins in kubernetes? We don't think that's the answer, but still, I can't just move between kubernetes. You know seamlessly yet. But this is moving toward that >>direct. Absolutely. A lot of customers want to have a very simple implementation. At the same time, they weren't off course a multi cloud approach and I really care about marking the difference between multi cloud hybrid Cloud has been a lot of confusion. But if you think about a multi cloud is re routed into the business need or harnessing innovation from wherever it comes from, you know the different clouds capability from things, and you know what they do today. Tomorrow it could even change, so people want optionality, so they want a very simple implementation that's integrated with public cloud providers that simplifies their life in terms of networking, security and application of workload management. And we've been executing towards that goal so fundamentally simplify the operations of these pretty complex kind of hybrid apartments. >>And once you nail that operations on hybrid, that's where multi cloud comes in. That's really just a connection point. >>Absolutely, you know, you might know is an issue. So in order to fulfill your business, your line of business needs you. Then you have a hybrid problem, and you want to really kind of have a consistent production grade environment between things on Prem that you own and control versus things that you use and you want to control better. Now, of course, they're different school thoughts. But most of the customers who are speaking with really want to expand their governance and technology model right to the cloud, as opposed to absorb in different ways of doing things from each and every time. >>I want to unpack a little bit of what you said earlier about the knowing where the problem is, because a lot of times it's a point, the finger at the other first, it's the application promising the problem, so I want to get into that. But first I want to understand the hyper flex application platform. Eugene, if you could just share the main problem that you guys solve, what are some of the pain points that customers had? What problem does the AP solved? >>Yeah, as I mentioned, it's really the platform for our customers to modernize the applications on right, and it addresses those things that they're looking for as far as the economics right, really? The ability to provide a full stack container experience without having to, you know, but bringing any third party hyper visor licenses as well support costs that's well integrated. There you have your integrated, hyper converged storage capability. You have the cloud based management, and that's really developing. You provide that developer dev ops simplicity from that agility that they're looking for internally as well as for their production environments. And then the other aspect is the simplicity to manage all this right and the entire life cycle management >>as well. So it's the operational side of the hole in under the covers hobby on the application side where the problem is because this is where I'm a bit skeptical, Normal rightfully so. But I can see a problem where it's like Whose fault is it? Applications, problem or the network? I mean, it runs on where? Sears Workloads, Banking app. It's having trouble. How do you know where the problem is? And how do you solve that problem with what's going on for that specific issue? >>Absolutely. And you know, the name of the game here is breaking down this operational side, right? And I love what are appdynamics VP? GM Any? Whitaker said. You know, he has this terminology. Beast develops, which it may sound like an interesting acrobatics, but it's absolutely too. The business has to be part of this operational kind of innovation because, as you said, you know, developer just drops their containers and their code to the I T. Ops team, but you don't really know whether the problem a certain point is going to be in the code or in the application is actually deployed. Or maybe a server that doesn't have enough CPU. So in the end, it boils down to one very important thing. You have to have visibility, insights and take action at every layer of the stack. Instrumentation. Absolutely. There are players that only do it in their software overlay domain. The problem is, very often these kind of players assume they're underneath. Things are fine, and very often they're not. So in the end, this visibility inside in action is the loop that everybody's going after these days, too, Really get to the next. If you want a generational operation, where you gotta have a constant feedback loop and making it more faster and faster because in the end you can only win in the marketplace, right? So your I T ops, if you're faster than your competitors, >>will still still questioning the GM of APP Dynamics. Run, observe, ability. And he's like, No, it's not a feature, it's everywhere. So he's comment was observe. Abilities don't really talk about it because it's a big in. You agree with that? >>Absolutely. It has to be at every layer of the stack, and only if you have visibility inside an action through the entire stock, from the software all the way to the infrastructure level that you can solve the problems. Otherwise, the finger pointing quote unquote will continue, and you will not be able to gain the speed you need. >>Okay, so The question on my mind I want to get both of you guys could weigh in on this is that if you look at Cisco as a company, you got a lot going on. You guys huge customer base core routers to know applications. There's a lot going on a lot of a lot of complexity. You got I o. T. Security members talking about that. You got the WebEx rooms totally popular. It's got a lot of glam, too, and having the WebEx kind of, I guess, what virtual presence was telepresence kind of model. And then you get cloud. Is there a mind share within the company around how cloud is baked into everything? Because you can't do I ot edge without having some sort of cloud operational things. Stuff we're talking about is not just a division. It's kind of it's kind of threads everywhere across Cisco. What's the what's the mind share right now within the Cisco teams and also customers around cloud ification? >>Well, I would say it's it's a couple of dimensions. The 1st 1 is the cloud is one of the critical domains of this multi domain architecture. That, of course, is the cornerstone of Cisco's. The knowledge is strategy, right? If you think about it, it's all about connecting users to applications wherever they are and not just the users to the applications themselves. Like if you look at the latest US from I. D. C. 58% of workloads is heading to a public cloud, and the edge is like the data center is exploding many different directions. So you have this highly distributed kind of fabric. Guess what sits in between. All these applications and micro services is a secure network, and that's exactly what we're executing upon. Now that's the first kind of consideration. The second is if you look at the other civil line. Most of the Cisco technology innovation is also going a direction of absorbing cloud as a simplified way of managing all the components or the infrastructure. You look at the hyper flex. AP is actually managed by Inter site, which is a SAS kind of component. This journey started long time ago with Cisco Iraqi on then, of course, we have sass properties like WebEx. Everything else absolutely migrate borders. >>We've been reporting Eugene that five years ago we saw the movement where AP, eyes were starting to come in when you go back five years ago. Not a lot of the gear and stuff that Cisco had AP eyes. Now you got AP eyes building in all the new products that you see the software shift with you intent based networking to APP dynamics. It's interesting. It's you're seeing kind of the agile mindset. This is something you and I talk all the time. But agile now is the new model. Is it ready for customers? I mean, the normal enterprises still have the infrastructure and separated, and they're like, Okay, how do I bring it together? What do you guys see in the customer base? What's going on with that early adopters, Heavy duty hardcore pioneers out there. But you know, the general mainstream enterprise. Are they there yet? Have they had that moment of awakening? >>Yeah, I mean, I think they they are there because fundamentally, it's all about ensuring that application experience. And you could only ensure the application experience right by having your application teams and infrastructure teams work together. And that's what's exciting. You mentioned Ap eyes and what we've done. They were with APP dynamics, integrating with inner sight workload. Optimizer as you mentioned all the visibility inside in action and what APP Dynamics has provides. Provide that business and end user application performance experience. Visibility Inter site. It's giving you visibility on the underlining workload, and the resource is whether it's on prim in your private data center environment or in a different type of cloud providers. So you get that full stack visibility right from the application all the way down to the bottom and then inter site local optimizer is then also optimizing the resource is to proactively ensure that application experience. So before you know, if we talk about someone at a check out and they're about there's of abandonment because the function is not working, we're able to proactively prevent that and take a look at all that. So, you know, in the end, I think it's all about ensuring that application experience and what we're providing with APP Dynamics is for the application team is kind of that horizontal visibility of how that application performing and at the same time, if there's an issue, the infrastructure team could see exactly within the workload topology, where the issue is and entertain safely, whether it be manual intervention or even automatically our ops capability. Go ahead and provide that action so the action could be, you know, scaling out the VM that's on Prem or looking at new, different type of easy to template in the cloud. That's a very exciting about this. It's really the application experience is now driving and optimize the infrastructure in real >>time. And let me flip your question like, Do you even have a choice, John, when you think about in the next two years 50% more applications? If you're a large enterprise here, 5 to 7000 apps you have another 2 3000 applications just coming into into the and then 50% of the existing ones that are going to be re factor lifted and shifted the replace or retired by SAS application. It's just like a tsunami that's that's coming on you and oh, by the way, because again the micro services kind of effect the number of dependencies between all these applications is growing incredibly rapidly, Like last year, we were eight average interdependencies for applications. Now we have 20 so in Beijing imaginable happens as you are literally flooded with this can really you have to ensure that your application infrastructure fundamentally will get tied up as quickly as you can >>see. You and I have been talking for at least five years now, if not longer. Networking has been the key kind of last change over clarification. I would agree with you guys. I think last question because I wanted to get your perspective. But think about it. It's 13 years since the iPhone so mobile has shown people that mobile app can change business. But now you get the pressure of the networks. Bringing that pressure on the network or the pressure of the network to be better than programmable is the rise of video and data. I mean, you got mobile check now you got it. Video. I mean more people doing video now than ever before. Videos of consumer. Well, it's streaming. You got data? These two things absolutely forced customers to deal with it. >>But what really tipped the balance? John is actually the SAS effect is the cloud effect because, as you know, it's an I t. So the inflection points. Nothing gets a linear right. So once you reach a certain critical mass of cloud apps, and we're absolutely they're already all of a sudden your traffic pattern on your network changes dramatically. So why in the world are you continuing? Kind of, you know, concentrating all of your traffic in your data center and then going to the Internet. You have to absolutely open the floodgates at the branch level and as close to the users this possible, and that it implies a radical change of the >>way I would even add to that. And I think you guys are right on where you guys are going. It may be hard to kind of tease out with all the complexity with Cisco, but in the keynote, the business model shifts come from SAS. So you got all this technical stuff going on. You have the sass ification, or cloud changes the business models so new entrants can come in and existing players get better. So I think that whole business model conversation never was discussed at Cisco Live before in depth. Okay, run your business, connect your hubs campus move packets around Dallas applications in business model, >>but also the fact that there is increasing number off software capabilities and so fundamental. You want to simplify the life of your customers through subscription models that help the customer buying a using what they really need the right at any given point in time, all the way to having enterprise agreements. >>I also think that's about delivering these application experiences free for small, different experience. That's really what's differentiating you from your competitors, right? And so that's a different type of >>shift as well. Well, you guys have got a good That's a good angle on this cloud. I love it. I got to ask the question. What can we expect next from Cisco? More progression along cloud ification? What's next? >>Well, I would say we've been incredibly consistent, I believe in the last few years in executing on our cloud strategy, which again is sent around helping customers really gluing this mix, set off data centers and clouds to make it work as one right as much as possible. And so what we really deliver is networking security and application performance management, and we're integrating this more and more on the two sides of the equation, right? The data center side and the public cloud side and more more integrated in between all of these layers again, to fundamentally give you this operational capability to get faster and faster. We'll continue doing so and >>we'll get you set up before we came on camera that you were talking to sales teams. What are they? What's the vibe with sales team? They get excited by this. What's the >>oh yeah, feedback. And absolutely, from the inter site work optimizer and the app Dynamics side. It's very exciting for them. Switch the conversation they're having with their customers, really from that application experience and proactively ensuring it. And on the hyper flex application platform side, this is extreme exciting with providing a container cloud to our customers. And you know what's coming down is more and more capabilities for our customers to modernize the applications on hyper >>flex. You guys are riding a pretty big waves here at Cisco in a cloud way to get the i o t. Security wave. Great stuff. Thanks for coming in. Thanks for sharing the insights. Appreciate it. >>Thank you for having >>coverage here in Barcelona. I'm John. First, Minutemen back with more coverage. Fourth day of four days of cube coverage. Be right back after this short break. >>Yeah, yeah, yeah.

>> Announcer: Live from Anaheim, California. It's theCUBE, covering Nutanix.NEXT, 2019. Brought to you by Nutanix. >> Welcome back the theCUBE's live coverage of Nutanix.NEXT here in Anaheim California. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight. Along with my co-host John Furrier. Here we are, we're at day two, John, this conference, I gotta say it's pretty cool. 6500 people, we're steps away from Disneyland, and, you go to a lot of these things every year. I also do about a dozen or so for theCUBE. So in other words, we're veterans of this kind of thing. This does seem to have a different vibe and I think it really gets to the kind of company Nutanix is, and where it is in its journey. >> Nutanix is still a small company even though they're 10 years old, as Dheeraj talks about. The numbers aren't massive, I mean, we go to a lot of other shows where it's 15,000, Amazon Web Services just had an event in London, Dave Vellante was out there covering, Stu was covering Red Hat summit in Boston this week, tons of events going on. Amazon Web Services' summit in comparison was 12,500 people, 22,000 registered, that's a summit in London. It's not the re:Invent main conferences like 30,000 people. And that's always sold out, so they got a lot, in terms of attendees numbers they're still in the entry level, mid range growth. But I think that's okay, they like that culture and I think the story here at this show is intimacy, they would rather err on the side of better content and more intimate opportunities for their customers to really get the straight scoop. And I think it's less of a conference slash trade show, more of an intimate relationships where they can provide feedback, for customers to give feedback, and for Nutanix to figure out with the customers how to connect to them. So, I think the story here is, Nutanix is growing up as a company, they're 10 years old and they gotta go the next level and the management team has technical chops, and they have a long term view. They have that 20 mile stare, they can see out and they're trying to figure it out. I still think that the numbers are light on their forecast I still think that there's some sandbagging going on there, I'm not saying they're sandbagging, but I mean, I think, you look at Essentials, which is the enterprise and then multi-cloud, the numbers that we're seeing at Wikibon are much bigger, and Amazon reflects that. So I think they're being cautious but smart about how they execute off their success they've had in the first 10 years to go the next 10 to 20 years and I think that's clear in the management team, that they wanna build a durable company. >> Well exactly, and I think that that's what's really coming through, is that this is, as you said, they're growing up. This is a real coming of age moment for them, they've celebrated the 10 years. Okay, so what kind of company are we? Who do we want to be? And what's coming through is that from the technology side, they get it. They say, I'm sort of reminded of the Henry David Thoreau quote, our life is frittered away by detail, simplify simplify simplify, that's what customers want. They want this one click data recovery, they want their credentials to be assumed. You know who I am, I'm safe to be in here. Fixing things, dealing with that. So I think that they get that, that simplicity is key. They also get customer service. I mean their Net Promoter scores, as we've noted, are in the 90s, that's just unheard of. >> It's monster, monster numbers. >> It really is and so they get it. We need to be responsive to customers, we need to have a personal relationship with these, because it's not just organizations, it's people at the other end of these transactions. >> I mean, I think Nutanix, one of the stories that's popping out in the hallways as I walk around and talk to customers and people and the company and partners, is that Nutanix has a lot of headroom in their growth. I think Wall Street is interesting and you heard Dheeraj talk about that yesterday, about having a new customer, you asked him about his management style and he said quote, I have a new customer called Wall Street. And I have to balance that against mainstream enterprise which is his core business. And so he as a CEO and the company are dealing with this new stakeholder called public company customer retail stock buyers. That's a short term cycle and I think, if you look at their stock, they had a big knife edge drop in the past quarter. And I think the shorts are circling, it's a whole nother dynamic, it's a whole nother theater for Nutanix to deal with, and I think that's something that they gotta get used to. And he was clear, he said I'm addressing it, we're gonna balance it, but they gotta be thinking long term because this company has a lot more to do and their customer base are risk takers. Because everyone we talk to has this different style or persona. They're smart, they're usually engineering oriented, they love engineered solutions. And they're taking chances. And everyone who's taken the chance with Nutanix, has paid off. That seems to be the theme. And as we were talking before we came on camera, Mark Hamill, Jedi knight, you know, Star Wars, was on stage giving the keynote, their customer base, is a lot like the Jedi order, right? I mean they see themselves as, elite, technically, they're not afraid to take organizational risks and push that DevOps culture. And we heard that from Sunil, the chief product officer that they're really looking at, this new way to do things, like they did with hyperconvergence, they pioneered that, set the table on that and foundationally built that. They wanna take that same playbook of HCI, hyperconverged infrastructure, and apply it to the cloud. And provide an abstraction layer advantage and I think that is clearly their strategy and that's, to me, the top story here. >> I couldn't agree more and I also think that, what is also coming through is this idea of we don't wanna be safe. What's clear is that, consumer technologies have leapfrogged IT enterprise vendors. The things that we hold in our pockets are so much more sophisticated than what businesses and organizations, multi-billion dollar businesses and organizations, are using, what their employees are using on a day to day basis. So we expect a certain kind of design and ease of use, in our personal lives and they're bringing it to enterprises and think that that is really what's exciting and interesting about this company. >> What's interesting about their story is that, the consistent theme about the customers is that it's kind of a consolidation story but that's not the real story because back in the old days of IT, consolidation was the strategy. Consolidate vendors, consolidate footprint to reduce cost, clearly a cost reduction. With Nutanix what they get is they get consolidation, and they enable advantages so the real value of Nutanix is to be positioned for those new kinds of app developers, so. This is like, you get consolidation as a side benefit for enabling the value, and that's the theme that's coming out of all the customer testimonials and interviews is, we gotta do more, we gotta create more enablement for the app developers and we gotta provide more performant storage servers and software for the customers. And that's their main focus and they consolidation as a benefit. That's gonna scare a lot of people and customers that I've talked to said, hey I got all the stuff but I can't just throw it away tomorrow, I gotta move it out over time, so, this is the Nutanix sales challenge, how do you move faster with all that incumbent, legacy stuff in these datacenters, while enabling the multi-cloud capability? >> And we're gonna be talking about that more today with Chris Kaddaras on the show. We have a lot of great guests, we have the CIO, Wendy Pfeiffer, I was reading an article about her today, she answered an ad as a teenager to work for NASA. She had an idea for NASA and so we're gonna hear much more about her story, we've got a lot of great guests. >> Well what's your take? I mean, you've been here, you're getting immersed in. What's your take of the show, what's your analysis? >> Well, what's really interesting to me is that we're having this conversation against this backdrop where, the technology industry is really under fire. I mean, we heard Ayanna Howard here on the show yesterday and then she was up on the main stage today, talking about the good, the bad, and then the really scary elements of AI and how it really has these powers that can do a lot of wonderful things and help children with special needs and help workers be more productive and engaged and collaborate. But yet, there's also this much darker side that AI's really only as good as its creators. And then the other difficulty is that, because we have become so trusting of these machines, we disregard our own intuition. And that is a really scary element, so. What I think is exciting, and it goes back to this risk taking mentality, that Nutanix has, is, we're gonna talk about these things. We're just going to forget about them or they're gonna be a sideshow, this is really on the main stage, let's talk about our values, let's talk about the humanity of technology and this is really an important part of the conversation. >> It's interesting, the culture, we talked about the culture a lot yesterday. And you can see from the mix of the guests we've had here and how they're putting their content together across the show portfolio, it's not just speeds and feeds. There's a lot of tech for good angle but they're not tech for good stories like hey, look, here's a tech for good story. Look how good we are because we promote it. They're authentic people that have a great story that has a tech involvement. But it's not a pure Nutanix messaging kind of thing. >> Right, and it goes to back to their values, the humble, hungry, honest, and have a lot of heart. I mean I think that that is, you really see how important culture is, when it is top down. When Dheeraj embodies certain characteristics and traits, you see that employees then look up and they say okay, this is what we're about, this is who we are. >> You know, we also talked yesterday about our analysis in the keynote, what's interesting about culture is, there's also a culture shift going on inside their customer base. And again, it's back to this kind of Star Wars theme, Jedi knights and the revolution continuing for Nutanix, their opportunity is to continue to stay on the course, and this is gonna be a big bet for them, they gotta make some big bets on the technology side, which they're making, but also they have an opportunity because a lot of their installed base are rebels, right? So you have this rebellion IT guy, generational shift where you have DevOps coming in and Gene Kim who wrote the book on DevOps, runs the biggest DevOps event in the world, series of events, DevOps Enterprise Summit, he's even saying it's about 3% changeover. So I think there's a big tailwind coming for Nutanix. Around DevOps, operating models, in the enterprise and cloud where, the convergence of those two worlds coming together, and it's gonna be a younger generation, it's gonna be a different world. If that happens, I think that's gonna be something that Wall Street might not see. I think that's kind of an area. And that's gonna be a good tailwind for Nutanix. The other notable thing that I would point out from this show is, the presence of VMware visibly in the conversation. And I think Dheeraj was talking about, hey we don't mind talking about VMware because they validate the marketplace, they're the big 800 pound gorilla. And we're gonna continue to innovate around them. We don't need their Hypervisor, customers don't need to pay their vTax, that's his messaging, so that was a key notable. The other one was the challenge that Nutanix has, this is, again, might be a Wall Street insight for some of the Wall Street folks out there is that, their challenge has been getting new logos. Their cost to sales is a little bit high because they require POCs and once they get in there they usually win. And then their cost per sales, cost per order dollar on the sales side once they have a customer, is very low, they get more renewals and they have more net contract value so they have great customer economics on that side. The Hewlett Packard Enterprise deal for them, could bring them a tsunami of new logos. That could give them a lot of leverage and bring their customer base well above their 12,000 number now. And bring them up into a whole nother level. So I think the HPE deal will be a tell sign on the numbers, and if they can get more new logos in there, the big accounts that HP has through their channel, that's a big story. So VMware, HPE, culture, all the main story here. >> And of course we had HPE on the show yesterday, talking about that very development, so. We have lots more great content, great guests to come today, this has been just a ball hosting with you, so I'm really for another day. >> Very intimate show, I mean, Nutanix are a very intimate show they don't really care about the big numbers, they want the right numbers and that speaks to their culture. >> And they know their people. Because as we talked about many times, Mark Hamill, up on the stage yesterday, so, they know their community. Please stay tuned for more of the coverage from theCUBE of .NEXT here in Anaheim. I'm Rebecca Knight for John Furrier, stay tuned. (electronic music)

>> Announcer: Live, from Washington DC, it's the CUBE. Covering .conf2017. Brought to you by Splunk. >> And welcome back here on theCUBE. John Walls and Dave Vellante, we're in Washington DC for .conf2017, Splunk's annual get together coming up to the nation's capital for the first time. This is the eighth year for the show, and 7,000 plus attendees, 65 countries, quite a wide menu of activities going on here. We'll get into that a little bit later on. We're joined now by a couple of gentlemen, Michael Arahuleta who is the Vice President of Engineering at Atlassian, Michael, thank you for being with us. >> Thank you, actually it's Director of Business Development. >> John: Oh, Director of Business Development, my apologies >> He's doin' a great job >> My apologies. >> I don't need that. >> Oh very good. And Brooke Gravitt, who I believe is the VP of Engineering, >> There ya go. >> And the Chief Software Architect at Forty8Fifty. >> Yep, how ya doin'? >> No promotions or job assignments, I've gotcha on the right path there? >> Yeah, yeah. >> Good deal, alright. Thank you for joining us, both of you. First off, let's just set the stage a little bit for the folks watching at home, tell us a little bit about your company, descriptions, core competencies, and your responsibilities, and then we'll get into the intersection, of why the two of you are here. So Michael, why don't you lead off. >> So Atlassian, we, in our simplest form, right, we make team collaboration software. So our goal as a company is to really help make the tools that companies use to collaborate and communicate internally. Our primary focus, and kind of our bread and butter has always been making the tools that software companies use to turn around and make their software. Which is a great position to be in, and an increasingly we're seeing ourselves expand into providing that team collaboration software products like Jira, Confluence, BitBucket, and now, the new introduction of a product called Stride, which is a real time team collaboration product, not just for technical teams, but we're really seeing a great opportunity to empower all teams 'cause every team in every organization needs a better way to communicate and get things done. That's really what Atlassian core focus is all about. >> John: Gotcha. Brooke, if you would. >> Yeah, so Forty8Fifty Labs, we're the software development and DevOps focused subsidiary of Veristor Systems based out of Atlanta. We focus primarily on four key partners, which would be Atlassian, Splunk, QA Symphony, and Red Hat, and primarily, we do integrations and extensibility around products that these guys provide as well as hosting, training, and consulting on DevOps and Atlassian products. >> So the ideal state in your worlds is you've got -- true DevOps, Agile, infrastructure as code, I'll throw all the buzzwords out at ya, but essentially you're not tossing code from the development team into the operations team who them hacks the code, messes it up, points fingers, all that stuff is in part anyway what you're about eliminating, >> Right. >> And getting to value sooner. Okay, so that's the sort of end state Nirvana. Many companies struggle with that obviously, You got, what, Gartner has this term, bimodal IT, which everybody, you know, everybody criticizes but it's sort of true. You've got hybrid clouds, you've got, you know, different skillsets, what is the state of, Agile development, DevOps, where are we in terms of organizational maturity? Wonder if you guys could comment. >> I'll start with that right, I think -- Even though we've been talking about DevOps for a while and companies like Atlassian and Splunk, we live and breathe it. I still think when you look at the vast majority of enterprises, we're still at the early stages of effectively implementing this. I think we're still really bringing the right definition to what DevOps is, we're kind of go through those cycles where either a buzzword gets hot, everybody glams onto it, but no one really knows what it means. I think we're really getting into that truly understanding what DevOps means. I know we've been working hard at Atlassian to really define that strong ecosystem of partners. We really see ourselves as kind of in the middle of that DevOps lifecycle, and we integrate with so many great solutions around monitoring and logging, testing, other operational softwares, and things of that nature to really complete that DevOps lifecycle. I think we're really just now finally seeing it come together and finally starting to see even larger organizations, very large Fortune 100 companies talk about how they know they've got to get away from Waterfall, they've got to embrace Agile, and they've got to get to a true DevOps culture, and I think that's where Atlassian is very strong, devs have loved us for a long time. Operations teams are really learning to embrace Atlassian as well. I think we're really going to great position to be at that mesh of what truly is DevOps as it really emerges in the next couple years. >> Brooke, people come to Forty8Fifty, and they say, alright, teach me how to fish in the DevOps world, is that right? >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, one of the challenges that you have in large enterprises is bringing these two groups of people together, and one of the easy ways is to go out and buy a tool, I think the harder and more difficult challenge that they face is the culture change that's required to really have a successful DevOps transformation. So we do a little bit of consulting in that area with workshops with folks like Gene Kim, Gary Gruver, Jez Humble that we bring in who are sort of industry icons for that sort of DevOps transformation. To assist, based on our experiences ourselves in previous companies or engagements with customers where we've been successful. >> So the cloud native guys, people who are doing predominantly cloud, or smaller companies, tech companies presumably, have glommed onto this, what about the sort of the Fortune 1000, the Global 2000, what are we seeing in terms of their adoption, I mean, you mentioned Waterfall before, you talk to some application development heads will say, well listen, we got to protect some of our Waterfall, because it's appropriate. What are you seeing in the sort of traditional enterprise? >> We see the traditional enterprise really embracing Agile in a very aggressive way. Obviously they wouldn't be working with Atlassian if they weren't, so our view is probably a little bit tilted. Companies that engage with us are the more open to that. But we're definitely seeing that the far and away the vast majority in the reports that we get from our partners like Forty8Fifty Labs is that increasingly larger and larger companies are really aggressively looking to embrace Agile, bring these methodologies in, and the other simple truth is with the way Atlassian sells -- the way we sell our products online, we have always sort of grown kind of bottoms up inside a lot of these large organizations, so where officially IT may still be doing something else, they're always countless smaller teams within the organization that have embraced Atlassian, are using Atlassian products, and then, a year down the road, or two years down the road, we tend to then emerge as the defacto solution for the organization after we kind of spread through all these different groups within the company. It's a great growth strategy, a lot are trying to replicate it. >> Okay, what's the Splunk angle? What do you guys do with Splunk, and how does it affect your business? >> Mike: Do you want to start? >> Sure, so, we're both a partner of Splunk, a customer of Splunk, and we use it in our own products in terms of our hosting, and support methodologies that we leverage at Forty8Fifty. We use the product day in and day out, and so with Atlassian, we have pulled together a connector that is -- one half of it is a Splunk app, it's available on Splunk base, and the other part is in the Atlassian marketplace, which allows us to send events from Juris Service Desk, ticketing events, over to Splunk to be indexed. You have a data model that ties in and allows you to get some metrics out of those events, and then the return trip is to -- based on real time searches, or alerts, or things that you have -- you're very interested in reports, you can trigger issues to be created inside of Jira. >> I think the only thing to add to that, so definitely, that's been a great relationship and partnership, and we're seeing an increasing number of our partners also become partners with Splunk and vice versa, which is great. The other strong side to this as well, is our own internal use of Splunk. So, we as a company, we always like to empower our different teams to pick whatever solution they want to use, and embrace that, and really give that authority to the individual teams. However, with logging, we were having a huge problem where all of our different teams were using over a whole host variety of different logging solutions, and frankly not to go into all the details, it was a mess. Our security team decided to embrace Splunk and start using Splunk, and really got a lot of value out of the solution and fell in love with the solution. Which says a lot, because our security team doesn't normally like much of anything, especially if it's not homegrown. That was a huge statement there, and then quickly Splunk now has spread to our cloud team which is growing rapidly as our cloud scales dramatically. Our developers are using it for troubleshooting, our SREs and our support team for incident management, and it's even spread to our marketplace, which is one of the larger marketplaces out there today for third party apps. Then the new product, Stride, for team collaboration is going to be very dependent on Splunk for logging as well. It's become that uniform fabric. I even heard a dev use a term which I've never heard a dev talk about logs and talk about log love, which is no PR, that is the direct statement from a developer, which I thought was amazing to hear. 'cause you know, they just want to code and make stuff, they don't want to deal when it actually breaks and have to fix it. But with Splunk they've actually -- They're telling me they actually enjoy that. So that's a great -- >> That's more than the answer is in the logs, that's there's value in our logs, right? >> Yeah, a ton of value, right? Because at the end of the day, these alerts are coming in and then we use tools like the Forty8Fifty Labs tool to get those tickets into Jira. Those logs and things are coming in, that means there's an issue and there's something to be resolved and there's customer pain. So the quicker we can resolve that, that log is that first indicator of what's going on in the cloud and in our platforms to help us figure out how do we keep that customer happy? This isn't just work, and just a task, this is about delivering customer value and that log can be that first indicator. The sooner you can get something resolved, the sooner the customer's back to getting stuff done and that's really our focus as a company, right? How do we enable people to get things done? >> Excuse me, when you are talking about your customers, what are their pain points? Today? I mean, big data's getting bigger and more capabilities, you've got all kinds of transport problems and storage problems, and security problems, so what are the pain points for the people who are just trying to get up to speed, trying to get into the game, and that the kind of services you're trying to bring to them to open their eyes. >> I think if you look at the value stream mapping and time to market for most businesses, where Splunk and Atlassian play in is getting that fast feedback. The closer in to the development side, the left hand side of value stream that you can pull in, key metrics, and get an understanding of where issues are, that actually -- it's much less expensive to fix problems in development than when they're in production, obviously. Rolling things like Splunk that can be used as a SIM to do some security analysis on, whether it be product code or business process early, rather than end up with a data breach or finding something after it's already in production. That kind of stuff, those are the challenges that a lot of the companies are facing is -- especially when the news, if you look at all the things that are goin on from a security perspective, taking these two products and being able to detect things that are going on, trends, any sort of unusual activity, and immediately having that come back for somebody in a service desk to work on either as a security incident or if it's a developer finding a bug early in the lifecycle, and augmenting your sort of infrastructure as code, the build out of the infrastructure itself. Being able to log all that data, and look at the metrics around that to help you build more robust enterprise class platforms for your teams. >> We've been sort of joking earlier about how the big data, nobody really talks about big data anymore, interestingly, Splunk who used to never talk about big data is now talking about big data, cause they're kind of living it. It's almost like same wine, new bottle with machine learning and AI and deep learning are all kind of the new big data buzzwords, but my question is, as practitioners, you were describing a situation where you can sort of identify a problem, maybe get an alert, and then manually I guess remediate that problem, how far away are we from -- so the machines automating that remediation? Thoughts on that? >> Am I first up? >> You guys kind of -- >> We've done a lot of automated remdediation. Close with remediation is what you call it. The big challenge is, it's a multi-disciplinary effort, so you might have folks that need to have expertise between network and systems and the application stack, maybe load balancing. There's a lot of different pieces there, so step one is you got to have folks that have the capacity to actually create the automation for their domain of expertise, and then you need to have sort of that cross platform DevOps mindset of being able to pull that together and the coordinator role of let's orchastrate all of the automations, and then hopefully out of that, combined with machine learning, some of the stuff that you can do in AWS, or with IBM's got out. You can take some of that analysis and be a little bit smarter about running the automation. In terms of whether that's scaling things up, or when -- For example, if you're in a financial industry and you've got a webpage that people are doing bill pay for, if you have a single website down, a web server down, out of a farm of 1000, in a traditional NOC, that would be kind of red on a dashboard. It's high, it's low priority, but it's high visibility and it's just noise, and so leveraging machine learning, people do that in Splunk to really refine what actually shows up in the NOC, that's something I think is compelling to customers. >> How are devs dealing with complexity, obviously, collaboration tools help, but I mean, the level of complexity today, versus when you think back to client server, is orders of magnitude greater for admins and developers, now you got to throw in containers and microservices, and the amount of data, is the industry keeping pace with the pace of escalation of complexity, and if so, how? >> I think we're trying. I think that's where we come into play. As this complexity increases really the only way you can solve it is through better communication and better tools to make sure that teams have the right information at their fingertips. The other challenge too is now in the world of the cloud, these teams need to be on 24/7. But you've got to kind of roll across the globe, and have your support teams in different time zones. You don't always have the right people online at the same time to be able to address, and you can't always talk directly, so that's where having the right tools and processes in place are extremely important so that team can know and know what did the team earlier do, how did they resolve this, where's the run book for this issue, and if this happens, how do we resolve it? How do we do so quickly? I think that tooling is key, and also too, this complexity is also as you guys were talking about before, being solved through some automation as well, and we're increasingly seeing that to where if this occurs and a certain thing occurs, then Jira can now automatically start to trigger some things for you, and then report back as to what it did. You're going to see more and more of that going forward as these models become more intelligent and we can redeploy, or if capacity is low, let's pull back resources, and let's not spend all this money on cloud computing platforms that we may not need because utilization is low. You're seeing all of those things start to happen and Jira as that workflow engine is that engine that's making those things happen in either an automated way at times, or just enabling people to communicate and do things in a very logical fashion. >> As ecosystem partners, how do you view the evolution of Splunk, is it becoming a application platform for you? Are you concerned about swim lanes? I wonder if you could talk about that? >> I personally, I don't see any real concerns of overlap between Splunk and Atlassian. In our view at Atlassian is, we tend to work very closely with people kind of fit into that frenemy category, and they're definitely a partner that we overlap with I think in very very few ways. If and when we ever do, I mean in a way, that's kind of something we always embrace as a company. I mean one thing we'll say a lot is overlap is better than a gap. Because if there's a gap between us and a partner, then that's going to result in customer pain. That means there's nothing that's filling that void. I'd rather have some overlap, and then give the customer the power to choose how do they want to do it. I mean, Splunk says you can probably do it this way, Atlassian says you could do it this way, as long as they can get stuff done, and that's always -- it's not a cliche from us, I mean that's a core message from Atlassian, then we're happy. Regardless if they completely embrace it our way, a little bit, a little deviation, that's not what really matters. >> Too much better than too little. >> Exactly. >> Is what it comes down to. Gentlemen, thanks for being with us. >> Thank you. >> We appreciate the time today and look forward to seeing you down the road and looking as your relationship continues. Not only between the two companies, but with Splunk as well. Thanks for being here. >> Mike: Thank you guys. >> We continue theCUBE does, live from Washington DC here at .conf2017, back with more in just a bit.

>> Voiceover: Live from San Francisco, it's The Cube covering DevNet Create 2017, brought to you by Cisco. >> Welcome back everyone. We're live here in San Francisco, The Cube's exclusive coverage of Cisco's inaugural event DevNet Create. I'm John Furrier with SiliconANGLE. My cohost Peter Burris, general manager of wikibon.com research. Next guest is Damon Edwards, co-founder of Rundeck. He's been on the crowd chats and does event DevOps and the enterprise, the content chair, co-founder of Rundeck, welcome to The Cube. >> Thank you. >> Great to meet you. >> First and we've >> Good to be here. been in line chatting away. Quick though from you, Cisco getting into DevOps, the conversation's pretty straight forward. We think it's awesome that they're doing this. >> Damon: Yeah. >> Good direction, right in line with DevOps, things looking good, middle of the fairway. What do you do next? >> Damon: Yeah, I mean ... >> Where does Cisco take the ball from here and take it home? >> You know, I think it's just more of the same. I think that you can't underestimate the split that's happened in the DevOps have and have nots, that sounds kind of odd, but a lot that we talk about are the unicorns, the high flying special built organizations that really grew up with this in the last five to 10 years. I think where Cisco really plays is in the other 99% of commerce of the world, which is the core classic enterprises. DevOps really hasn't made that deep of a dent yet into that, I guess we call it dark IT, right? The rest of the world the people have to deal with 30 years of, in some places, different technology, skills, acquisitions, mismatches, all the legacy, all the bureaucracy of large organizations, and Cisco has a path into that and a voice of authority into that. So happy to see they're putting such emphasis on these DevOps and Agile ideas and help to drive them into that. >> And they got the app dynamics things going down too, that big acquisition. Their slogan is Where Apps Meet Infrastructure. We always just talk about infrastructure as code. They're talking about programmable networking, which is the same thing. We want more programmable. >> Damon: Right. So how do they make that transition to this new operational model? I mean, networks used to be very fragile, set in stone. >> Damon: Yeah. Someone used to joke, "Hey, they're called NoOps," because they would say no to everything from a developer standpoint. >> Damon: Sure. >> How do they transition from NoOps to a new operational model that's agile and adding value? >> The bigger issue here is that Ops is getting squeezed, right, so it's an existential crisis for them. The reason why they were always the no folks is because they're always spending their time protecting that capacity because they're overrun, they're always outnumbered, first of all, then they're being overrun with all these tickets of new stuff coming in plus incidents happening in the middle, the capacity has always been an issue. Now with this new DevOps, and really digital transformation inspired pressure, it's go, go, go faster, open things up. At the same time the same business folks are saying from the other direction lock things down, don't be the next hack. Don't be the next breach. Don't be the next major outage, right? >> John: It's really a lot of pressure It's a pressure cooker. >> Right. >> So they're squeezed. So the biggest with crisis, how do we relieve that, how do we relieve that pressure? And the key technique is to be able to actually allow other people to participate in what traditionally was only operations tasks. If you allow me to go one step ... >> John: Democratization of operations in a way. >> It is, and what they're doing, you see the organizations that really nailed this, they're dividing up the idea of an operations procedure. It used to be everything was in operations. You defined it, you ran it, and you have all security and management audit control over it. In these new ways what they're doing is they're breaking it up into three pieces to say the ability to define these automated procedures, the ability to execute them, and the ability to have that management control and oversight, let's make those in three discrete parts and let's move that to where the labor capacity makes the most sense. By doing that, operations can free up those bottlenecks, start to decouple more, allow the rest of the organization to move a lot quicker and not be in that horrible position of being squeezed to death and having to tell everybody no. >> There's a number of reasons why it's happening. Sorry. One of the key ones is that, and it brings us back to the Cisco conversation we're asking about this, is that is used to be that operations was tied to a particular asset. The server more often than not. And so a single individual could pool all those things together because a single individual, or single group, had control over virtually all the resources >> Damon: Right. >> that were a part of that. Now we're talking about applications that are inherently distributed, and so we can't look at the process of operations in the same way. This comes back to Cisco. Does the world need to think more discreetly about these new highly distributed, deeply distributed, applications differently, and is that going to catalyze the diffusion of more of these high quality DevOps principals? What do you think? >> Yeah, it has to. If you look at the business driver, which is this digital transformation, a lot of people scoff at because it's like wait, is this 1999? You need a website? What are we talking about, right? But you realize what it is is saying all these disparate systems we used to have, right. I could get my cable bill, but it's just online, it's just a PDF of what they send to the printers, right. But now on it, everything I could do when I call up the customer service agent, I want to do it through my phone or I want to do it on my laptop, and that means all those formerly distinct systems that lived in different windows on a customer service agents desktop and after the little things to check the router status blew up, well I'll just talk past it, right. But now it's really going to matter in this digital world. The business is driving that integration, so where things don't live in isolation anymore, and because of that the complexity and this distributed nature of these services is rising. >> John: Yeah. >> And when that that happens, that makes the operations inherently more difficult and just contributes to that squeeze even more and we got to find a way to relieve that. >> Great point and great analysis. That just picked off what we were talking about on our intro package of the redefinition of what a full stacked developer is. >> Damon: Yeah. >> Now full stack implies you're talking about a distributed application model where there's no isolation anymore so you could almost argue that that's going to be obsolete. It's a full horizontal developer. >> Well logic used to be full stack, but how they connect will be different. >> Which just brings up the notion of, okay, things were in isolation >> Right. >> built to the database, now I go down the network, now a whole new developer category potentially is emerging. Do you feel the same way? >> Damon: Yeah. >> I mean, we're speculating. We don't actually know. >> Sure. I mean, if you are Netflix, who prides itself on it's ability to go out, pay top of market, which means they are the top of market, and attract the best talent, only one can win that game. For everybody else in the world, this idea of we're going to have these polyglot, super human, I-know-everything engineers, it's never going to happen. We have to find a way to use our systems and our processes to allow that kind of integration to happen, and allow those people to define the control procedures and policies for the things that they know about, and then allow that all to integrate to where then we can have other folks operate it and run it. Again, that idea of moving those part around to where we can best take advantage of the labor, otherwise you're just ... You're never going to find it. Go to any conference, NASA DevOps Conference, and ask people how many LinkedIn spam messages do you get a day because the word DevOps is in your profile? >> Yeah. >> Everybody just laughs because it's dozens. You're never going to have that idea so you have to build the systems to recreate that full stack capability. >> And have people that have access to be one, rather than super human that becomes democratized at that level. >> Damon: Yeah. >> It's interesting. One of the things that you guys did at the DevOps Enterprise Summit, I know you were in the content chair. >> Damon: Sure. >> I made a note here for my ... Make sure I get this question to you, was I like this thing you guys touched upon. Is DevOps best left to grow organically or is there a growing need slash desire for an agile manifesto? (laughs) The top down, do the manifesto, or organic ... Thoughts? >> Yeah, I'd say no, because what DevOps is is a series of problem state- It's an umbrella over a bunch of problem statements and a bunch of solutions that keeps evolving. This is why the Devs conferences are so interesting because it's practitioners talking about what's worked for them. I feel like at the highest level, if you really need to have a definition, go ahead and read the Phoenix project or the DevOps handbook. They've done a great job of collating all of that, but at the end of the day it's not one thing. It's not a single practice. There's no single thing you can do to say I'm going to transform a major global financial services company into a fast, nimble operation. There is no one thing. It's a series of things that you have to try over and over again. Look at DevOps as a movement where you can learn from practitioners, apply it to your own organization, see what happens, report back, try some new stuff, and so on and so forth. >> So you could basically have a manifesto, but it's really just more of marching orders. Organically, it has to form on its own. That's basically the same. >> I think there already is. >> You could say hey we have a manifesto, but it's not like this is the playbook. You can get >> Damon: There is >> the handbook to learn. >> no playbook. >> Exactly. Okay, cool. Well, appreciate the insight. Let's talk about your business. What do you guys do? >> Damon: Sure. >> What are some of the things that Rundeck's doing that you're the co-founder of? Share a little bit about the company. >> Yeah, Rundeck is at the what is it, it's an orchestration and scheduling platform and it's used by operations organizations. Generally from large startups, but also large DevBox unicorns, but also a lot of large enterprises. What they're using it for is for defining and improving their operations procedures. What happens after deployment? Where do we define all the procedures to manage all these disparate systems, all these islands of automation. Chef and Puppet was the hottest thing around three years ago and now it's Docker and Kubernetes and everything else, and now we still have our old power shelf stuff, our late logic over there, some OpSquare stuff over there, so what are we going to do? We need a way to define the procedures, expand all those and allow people to participate in that operations world so they can relieve that crunch. We see a lot for automating the creative standard operating procedures like classic Runbook automation, with a next generation twist, we'll say, but we also see a lot of self service operations, meaning that let's let other people participate. Let's let developers define these procedures as Rundeck jobs, and then let operations vet them ... >> That's where you're talking about the operational being relieved a bit. >> Yeah, you have to. You can't just say there's one little group here that's going to deploy and run all of these things in this world. We have to let other people participate in that. Not just for deployment, which is big in the DevOps world, but for what happens after deployment that nobody wants to talk about. All the escalations, all the interruptions, all those problems, Rundeck really plays in that area help people to get that under control. >> Damon, thanks so much for sharing your insight. Congratulations on your startup and great to meet you in person. >> Yeah. >> We've had great chats in our crowd chat. You guys have been awesome with Gene Kim and the community that you're involved with with DevOps for the Enterprise Summit, practitioners sharing. That's a great ethos >> Damon: It's a pretty >> That really aligns >> awesome bet, yeah. >> with what's going on in the industry. Congratulations. More Cube coverage here exclusive of Cisco's inaugural event called DevNet Create, an extension of their DevNet core classic network and developer systems at Cisco. This is an open source one. This is out in the community. Not all Cisco, all part of the community. And of course we're bringing it to you with live coverage. I'm John for Peter Burris. Stay with us. (upbeat music) >> Hi. I'm April Mitchell, and I'm the senior director ...

>> Announcer: Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE, covering Interconnect 2017. Brought to you by IBM. >> Hey, welcome back everyone. We're live here in Las Vegas at the Mandalay Bay for IBM InterConnect 2017 exclusive Cube coverage. I'm John Furrier, my co-host Dave Vellante, our next guest Dr. Angel Diaz who is the vice president of developer technology. Also you know him from the open source world. Great to see you again. >> Nice to see you. Thanks for spending time with us. >> Thank you. >> Boy, Blockchain, open source, booming, cloud-native, booming, hybrid cloud, brute force but rolling strong. Enterprise strong, if you will, as your CEO Ginni Rometty started talking about yesterday. Give us the update on what's going on with the technology and developers because this is something that you guys, you personally, have been spending a lot of time with. Developer traction, what's the update? >> Well you know if you look at history there's been this democratization of technology. Right, everything from object oriented programming to the internet where we realize if we created open communities you can build more skill, more value, create more innovation. And each one of these layers you create abstractions. You reduce the concept count of what developers need to know to get work done and it's all about getting work done faster. So, you know, we've been systematically around cloud, data, and AI, working really hard to make sure that you have open source communities to support those. Whether it's in things like compute, storage, and network, platform as a service like say Cloud Foundry, what we're doing around the open container initiatives and the Cloud Native Computing Foundation to all the things you see in the data space and everywhere else. So it's real exciting and it's real important for developers. >> So two hot trends that we're tracking obviously, one's pretty obvious. That's machine learning in cloud. Really hand and glove together. You see machine learning really powering the AI, hitting IOT all the way up to apps and wearables and what not, autonomous vehicles. Goes on and on. The other one is Kubernetes, and Kubernetes, the rise of Kubernetes has really brought the containers to a whole nother level around multi-cloud. People might not know it, but you are involved in the CNCF formation, which is Kubernetes movement, which was KubeCon, then it became part of the Linux Foundation. So, IBM has had their hand in these two trends pretty heavily. >> Angel: Oh yeah, absolutely. >> Give the perspective, because the Kubernetes one, in particular, we'll come back to the machine learning, but Kubernetes is powering a whole nother abstraction layer around helping containers go to the next level with microservices, where the develop equation has changed. It's not just the person writing code anymore, a person writing code throws off an application that has it's own life in relationship to other services in the community, which also has analytics tied to it. So, you're seeing a changing dynamic on this potential with Kubernetes. How important is Kubernetes, and what is the real impact? >> No, it is important. And what there actually is, there's a couple of, I think, application or architecture trends that are fundamentally changing how we build applications. So one of them I'll call, let's call it Code First. This is where you don't even think about the Kubernetes layer. All you do is you want to write your code and you want to deploy your code, and you want it to run. That's kind of the platform. Something like Cloud Foundry addresses the Code First approach. Then there's the whole event-drive architecture world. Serverless, right? Where it has a particular use case, event-driven, standing, stuff up and down, dealing with many types of inputs, running rules. Then you have, let's say the more transactional type applications. Microservices, right? These three thing, when combined allows you to kind of break the shackles of the monolith of old application architectures, and build things the way that best suit your application model, and then come together in much more coherent way. Specifically in Kubernetes, and that whole container stuff. You think think about it, initially, when, containers have been around a long time, as we all know, and Docker did a great job in making container accessible and easy, right? And we worked really closely with them to create some multisource activities around the base container definitions, the open container initiative in the Linux Foundation. But of course, that wasn't enough. We need to then start to build the management and the orchestration around that. So we teamed up with others and started to kind of build this Kubernetes-based community. You know, Docker just recently brought ContainerD into the CNCF, as well, as another layer. They are within the equation. But by building this, it's almost just Russian doll of capability, right, you know, you're able to go from one paradigm, whether it's a serverless paradigm running containers, or having your microservices become use in serverless or having Code First kick off something, you can have these things work well together. And I think that's the most exciting part of what we're doing at Kubernetes, what we're doing in serverless, and what we're doing, say, in this Code First world. >> So, development's always been kind of an art form. How is that art form evolving and changing as these trends that you're describing-- >> Oh, that's a great, I love that. 'Cause I always think of ourselves as computer science artists. You and I haven't spoken about that. That's awesome. Yeah, because, you know, it is an art form, right? Your screen is your canvas, right, and colors are the services that you can bring in to build, and the API calls, right? And what's great is that your canvas never ends, because you have, say, a cloud infrastructure, which is infinitely scalable or something, right? So, yeah. But the definition of the developer is changing because we're kind of in this next phase of lowering concept count. Remember I told you this lowering of concept count. You know, I love those O'Reilly books. The little cute animals. You know, as a developer today, you don't have to buy as many of those books, because a lot of it is done in the API calls that you've used. You don't write sorting algorithms anymore. Guess what, you don't need to do speech to text algorithms. You don't need to do some analysis algorithms. So the developer is becoming a cognitive developer and a data science developer, in addition to a application developer. And that is the future. And it's really important that folks skill up. Because the demand has increased dramatically in those areas, and the need has increased as well. So it's very exciting. >> So the thing about that, that point about cognitive developer, is that in the API calls, and the reason why we don't buy all those books is, the codes out there are already in open source and machine learning is a great example, if you look at what machine learning is doing. 'Cause now you have machine learning. It used to be an art and a science. You had to be a great computer scientist and understand algorithms, and almost have that artistic view. But now, as more and more machine learning comes out, you can still write custom machine learning, but still build on libraries that are already out there. >> Exactly. So what does that do? That reduces the time it takes to get something done. And it increases the quality of what you're building, right? Because, you know, this subroutine or this library has been used by thousands and thousands of other people, it's probably going to work pretty well for your use case, right? But I can stress the importance of this moment you brought up. The cognitive data application developer coming together. You know, when the Web happened, the development market blew up in orders of magnitude. Because everybody's is sort of learning HTML, CSS, Javascript, you know, J2E, whatever. All the things they needed to build, you know, Web Uize and transactional applications. Two phase commit apps in the back, right? Here we are again, and it's starting to explode with the microservices, et cetera, all the stuff you mentioned, but when you add cognitive and data to the equation, it's just going to be a bigger explosion than the Web days. >> So we were talking with some of the guys from IBM's GBS, the Global Business Services, and the GTS, Global Technology Services, and interesting things coming out. So if you take what you're saying forward, and you open innovation model, you got business model stacks and technology stacks. So process, stacks, you know, business process, and then technology, and they now have to go hand-in-hand. So if you take what you're saying about, you know, open source, open all of this innovation, and add say, Blockchain to it, you now have another developer type. So the cognitive piece is also contributing to what looks like to be a home run with Blockchain going open source, with the ledger. So now you have the process and the stacks coming together. So now, it's almost the Holy Grail. It used to be this, "Hey, those business processor guys, they did stuff, and then the guys coded it out, built stacks. Now they're interdependent a bit. >> Yeah. Well I mean, what's interesting to me about Blockchain, I always think of, at this point about business processes, you know, business processes have always been hard to change, right? You know, once you have partners in your ecosystem, it's hard to change. Things like APIs and all the technology allows it to be much quicker now. But with Blockchain, you don't need a human involved in the decision of who's in your partner network as long as they're trusted, right? I remember when Jerry Cuomo and Chris Ferris, in my team, he's the chairman of the Blockchain, of the hyperledger group, we're talking initially when we kind of brought it to the Linux Foundation. We were talking a lot about transactions, because you know, that was one of the initial use cases. But we always kind of new that there's a lot of other use cases for this, right, in addition to that. I mean, you know, the government of China is using Blockchain to deal with carbon emissions. And they have, essentially, an economy where folks can trade, essentially, carbon units to make sure that as an industry segment, they don't go over, as an example. So you can have people coming in and out of your business process in a much more fluid way. What fascinates me about Blockchain, and it's a great point, is it takes the whole ecosystem to another level because now that they've made Blockchain successful, ecosystem component's huge. That's a community model, that's just like open source. So now you've got the confluence of open source software, now with people in writing just software, and now microservices that interact with other microservices. Not agile within a company, agile within other developers. >> Angel: Right. >> So you have a data piece that ties that together, but you also have the process and potential business model disruption, a Blockchain. So those two things are interesting to me. But it's a community role. In your expert opinion on the community piece, how do you think the community will evolve to this new dynamic? Do you think it's going to take the same straight line growth of open source, do you think there's going to be a different twist to it? You mentioned this new persona is already developing with cognitive. How do you see that happening? >> Yes, I do. There's two, let's say three points. The first on circling the community, what we've been trying to do, architecturally, is build an open innovation platform. So all these elements that make up cloud, data, AI, are open so that people can innovate, skills can grow, anything, grow faster. So the communities are actually working together. So you see lots of intralocks and subcommittees and subgroups within teams, right? Just say this kind of nesting of technology. So I think that's one megatrend that will continue-- >> Integrated communities, basically. >> Integrated communities. They do their own thing. >> Yeah. >> But to your point earlier, they don't reinvent the wheel. If I'm in Cloud Foundry and I need a container model, why am I going to create my own? I'll just use the open compute initiative container model, you know what I'm saying? >> Dave: And the integration point is that collaboration-- >> Is that collaboration, right. And so we've started to see this a lot, and I think that's the next megatrend. The second is, we just look at developers. In all this conversation, we've been talking about the what? All the technology. But the most important thing, even more so than all of this stuff, is the how. How do I actually use the technology? What is the development methodology of how I add scale, build these applications? People call that DevOp, you know, that whole area. We at IBM announced about a year and a half ago, at Gene Kim's summit, he does DevOps, the garage method, and we open sourced it, which is a methodology of how you apply Agile and all the stuff we've learned in open source, to actually using this technology in a productive way at scale. Often times people talk about working in theses little squads and so forth, but once you hire, say you've got 10 people in San Francisco, and you're going to hire one in San Ramon, that person might as well be on Mars. Because if you're not on the team there, you're not in the decision process. Well, that's not reality. Open source is not that way, the world doesn't behave that way. So this is the methodology that we talked about. The how is really important. And then the third thing, is, if you can help developers, interlock communities, teach them about the how to do this effectively, then they want samples to fork and go. Technology journeys, physical code. So what you're start to see a lot of us in open source, and even IBM, is provide starters that show people how to use the technology, add the methodology, and then help them on their journey to get value. >> So at the base level, there's a whole new set of skills that are emerging. You mentioned the O'Reilly books before, it was sort of a sequential learning process, and it seems very nonlinear now, so what do you recommend for people, how do they go about capturing knowledge, where do they start? >> I think there's probably two or three places. The first one is directly in the open source communities. You go to any open source community and there's a plethora of information, but more so, if you hang out in the right places, you know, IRC channels or wherever, people are more than willing to help you. So you can get education for free if you participate and contribute and become a good member of a community. And, in fact, from a career perspective today, that's what developers want. They want that feeling of being part of something. They want the merit badge that you get for being a core committer, the pride that comes with that. And frankly, the marketability of yourself as a developer, so that's probably the first place. The second is, look, at IBM, we spend a huge amount of time trying to help developers be productive, especially in open source, as we started this conversation. So we have a place, developer.ibm.com. You go there and you can get links to all the relevant open source communities in this open innovation platform that I've talked about. You can see the methodologies that I spoke about that is open. And then you could also get these starter code journeys that I spoke about, to help you get started. So that's one place-- >> That's coming out in April, right? >> That's right. >> The journeys. >> Yeah, but you can go now and start looking at that, at developer.ibm.com, and not all of it is IBM content. This is not IBM propaganda here, right? It is-- >> John: Real world examples. >> Real world examples, it's real open source communities that either we've helped, we've shepherded along. And it is a great place, at least, to get your head around the space and then you can subset it, right? >> Yeah. So tell us about, at the last couple of minutes we have, what IBM's doing right now from a technology, and for developers, what are you guys doing to help developers today, give the message from what IBM's doing. What are you guys doing? What's your North Star? What's the vision and some of the things you're doing in the marketplace people can get involved in? You mentioned the garage as one. I'm sure there's others. >> Yeah, I mean look, we are m6anically focused on helping developers get value, get stuff done. That's what they want to do, that's what our clients want to do, and that's what turns us on. You build your art, you talk, you're going back to art, you build your drawing, you want to look at it. You want it to be beautiful. You want others to admire it, right? So if we could help you do that, you'll be better for it, and we will be better for it. >> As long as they don't eat their ear, then they're going to be fine. >> It's subjective, but give value of what they do. So how do they give value? They give value by open technologies and how we've built, essentially, cloud, data, AI, right? So art, arts technology adds value. We get value out of the methodology. We help them do this, it's around DevOps, tooling around it, and then these starters, these on-ramps, right, to getting started. >> I got to ask you my final question, a more personal one, and Dave and I talk about this all the time off camera, being an older guy, computer science guy, you're seeing stuff now that was once a major barrier, whether it's getting access to massive compute, machine learning, libraries, the composability of the building blocks that are out there, to create art, if you will, it's phenomenal. To me, it's just like the most amazing time to be be a computer scientist, or in tech, in general, building stuff. So I'm going to ask you, what are you jazzed up about? Looking back, in today's world, the young guns that are coming onto the scene not knowing that we walked barefoot in the snow to school, back in the old days. This is like, it's a pretty awesome environment right now. Give us personal color on your take on that, the change and the opportunity. >> Yeah, so first of all, when you mentioned older guys, you were referring to yourselves, right? Because this is my first year at IBM. I just graduated, there's nothing old here, guys. >> John: You could still go to, come on (laughs). >> What does that mean? Look you know, there's two things I'm going to say. Two sides of the equation. First of all, the fundamentals of computer science never go away. I still teach, undergrad seminars and so forth, and you have to know the fundamentals of computer science. That does not go away because you can write bad code. No matter what you're doing or how many abstractions you have, there are fundamental principles you need to understand. And that guides you in building better art, okay? Now putting that aside, there is less that you need to know all the time, to get your job done. And what excites me the most, so back when we worked on the Web in the early 90s, and the markup languages, right, and I see some in the audience there, Arno, hey, Arno, who helped author some of the original Web standards with me, and he was with the W3C. The use cases for math, for the Web, was to disseminate physics, that's why Tim did it, right? The use case for XML. I was co-chair of the mathematical markup language. That was a use case for XML. We had no idea that we would be using these same protocols, to power all the apps on your phone. I could not imagine that, okay? If I would have, trust me, I would have done something. We didn't know. So what excites me the most is not being able to imagine what people will be able to create. Because we are so much more advanced than we were there, in terms of levels of abstraction. That's what's, that's the exciting part. >> All right. Dr. Angel Diaz, great to have you on theCUBE. Great inspiration. Great time to be a developer. Great time to be building stuff. IOT, we didn't even get to IOT, I mean, the prospects of what's happening in industrialization, I mean, just pretty amazing. Augmented intelligence, artificial intelligence, machine learning, really the perfect storm for innovation. Obviously, all in the open. >> Angel: Yes. Awesome stuff. Thanks for coming on the theCUBE. Really appreciate it. >> Thank you guys, appreciate it. >> IBM, making it happen with developers. Always have been. Big open source proponents. And now they got the tools, they got the garages for building. I'm John Furrier, stay with us, there's some great interviews. Be right back with more after this short break. (tech music)

>> Narrator: Live, from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE, covering InterConnect 2017, brought to you by IBM. >> Okay, welcome back, everyone. We are live in Las Vegas, at the Mandalay Bay, for IBM's InterConnect 2017. It's the cloud and big-data Watson show that's all kind of coming together. This is theCUBE's three-day coverage, wall-to-wall day two, coming to an end here. I'm John Furrier, with my co-host Dave Vellante. Our next guest is Dave Lindquist who's an IBM Fellow, vice-president of Cloud DevOps and Analytics, at IBM. Great to have you on theCUBE, thanks for joining us. >> Thank you, John, thank you, Dave. >> So, love to have the IBM Fellows on, because we can then, like, get down and dirty, right? Get down and talk about the tech. I don't see if Ginnie's on stage today, I love the bumper sticker she has, 'cause she's, she nails it; enterprise strong, data first, cognitive to the core. So, enterprise strong means, there's a cloud-readiness equation going on right now, and we just came back from Google Next, and, hey, we've got great technology, buy us. Well, SLAs matter. You know, being enterprise ready isn't always about the best tech. >> No, no. >> It's about everything; it's the data, it's the machine-learning, it's the software, and also, those table stakes going on in the enterprise. Unpack that for us. >> Sure. Well, I think a lot of what you just went through, is at least part of the driving force between bringing ops into the dev space, this DevOps thing, and we'll expand on that in a little bit. But one of the big pushes going on is really around site reliability engineering, and how do you appropriately bring the skills together with the development teams to really set systems up in elastic scale, recovery-oriented compute models, so that you can scale that with the demand, you can recover from situations, you can recover from failures, you have a lot of redundancy built in the system. It takes a lot of time for teams to mature, to understand that, that aspect of delivering cloud services and delivering applications into, into a continuous available environment. >> What's IBM's formula for that right now, is you guys ramp-up and scale-up the cloud, IBM Cloud, you have the soft layer, and that's now Bluemix. So you have, on the lower end of the stack, you got to get that hardened infrastructure, if it's a service, and the platforms and service stuff. Then you start to bleed into the Bluemix. It's all one Bluemix now, but, you've got app developers, they want infrastructure as code, they want data as code, but then you got to have an uncoupling of set of services that look like one set of services. How hard is that, and what are you guys doing specifically to talk to customers about the value you're bringing on both sides of that camp? You know, the hard workload focused hybrid, to the creative sizzle of an app. >> Yeah, well, lot in that question, there's a lot of parts, lot of parts there. One of the things that's clearly going on, is, taking that next step in loose coupling systems, creating more independent services that can scale, elastically, independently of each other, the recovery-oriented models, and then presenting those services, up at the layers you mentioned; at the infrastructural areas, compute-storage networking, into the paths and container layers, so that the application developers can very rapidly get the environment they need, compose the services that they need, like the runtimes, data, messaging, et cetera, as a loosely-coupled system, and then build their applications to be deployed into that environment. >> How much innovation is going on? You're starting to see now, a new trend where there's more hardware engineering going into some chips, and hardware configurations, that's essentially software-driven, to offload, maybe machine-learning, some other, cooler things, that can assist some of the hard stuff that frees up more creativity on the software side. Say, machine-learning is a great example, you're starting to see Intel and others start thinking, okay, let's put some stuff on a chip. You have 5G wireless, you've got autonomous vehicles coming, a whole new hardware paradigm is kind of emerging with the cloud; how do you see that playing out, from an innovation standpoint? How does that strategy play out from a cloud, and IoT? >> To me, a lot of the things that are so exciting that's going on in the cloud, probably the big driver in the cloud is this whole acceleration of innovation. How quickly can you get from, instantiate an idea, in-field, iterate in-field with your users, towards a business outcome, and as you hit those outcomes, start scaling and expanding that out. And a lot of that innovation is building on some of the things that you mentioned: big data, cognitive, IoT, social, how do you start bringing these things together? And so, as you bring this together, real-time, you clearly need just exponential growth occurring, in compute capacity, which is probably creating, not probably, it's creating all kinds of opportunities for breakthroughs in algorithms, and breakthroughs in the hardware to support that. >> The other thing that we're seeing, I want to get your thoughts and commentary on is, how analytics is so compatible with the cloud, because, you're seeing that sweet spot developing nicely, and also with cloud-native trend is booming. You're seeing cloud-native compute foundations got big traction, and then the analytics is, people have no problem putting that in the public could, but yet they want the hybrid over here for some other stuff. So the workloads are starting to settle into their swim lanes. Your thoughts on the DevOps equation, as analytics moves to the cloud, not exclusively, but you know, for the majority of cases, and this cloud-native trend that's coming down the pike. >> Yeah, so, break that down in a couple pieces, the cloud-native trend, as well as the analytics trend. The cloud-native trend, what you see is a lot of development with micro services, and part of what makes that so exciting, is the culture of the teams and how they come together. You're basically seeing small teams, small, integrated teams, often called two-pizza teams, or squads, where you pull together designers with developers, with tests, with data science, with business, insights business strategy, into a team that then works together through the whole life-cycle, iterating incrementally and delivering in-field, to, as they move towards that business outcome that they're trying to achieve. So, what cloud-native is doing, is allowing, where that micro service model is really allowing many of these teams to work with relative autonomy, but accountability for their service, as it comes together to bring the full system together. What we're learning is that, one, you get a lot of speed like that, but then you start to, you need a level of analytics to help understand how that's coming together through that whole life-cycle, and what I mean by that is, you know, how is the testing coming along? So that everybody needs to start adopting more continuous testing, from unit tests, right, performance testing, availability, right into security testing. So you start running basic, simple analytics, where you start gathering on how the teams are doing in the continuous testing, and you can start setting soft and hard gates. An example of a soft gate might be, code coverage is dropping, so send an alert to the team to say, you've got to step up the code coverage. A hard gate might be, a security scan failed, so stop the deploy. And so, that's a basic set of analytics, but, the fun areas, to me, the exciting areas, we're starting to apply much more sophisticated models, are in understanding code health, and how the teams are actually working together. So you start developing models-- >> It's almost like team chemistry and coding working together. It's like, hey, you guys are good. You know, you're in the zone, you know? You're in the coding zone. Yeah, but this is a good point, I want to highlight just, let's just stop on that one point, I want to just drill down. I think that you nailed something that's, we've been kind of teasing out, and you put into words, the cloud-native trend around micro services, you mentioned teams working together, maybe some shared analytics, and kind of, code health, team, you know, scoreboard, or whatever. This is way beyond agile. I mean, agile has been a term that's been talked about inside companies, hey, let's be agile. You're talking about a fundamental industry reconfiguration of the players, so this is like a whole 'nother ballgame. >> To me, it builds on agile, what's going on, it does build on-- >> It goes beyond, it's-- >> But it goes way beyond, and even, you know, the early thinking, in DevOps, I think we're really pushing the envelope when we still call it DevOps, because we're thinking of the broad life-cycle of, you know, design practices. How do you begin to understand your users and what you're trying to accomplish with your users? Then you get into, you know, continuous integration, delivery, and testing, but then where it gets real interesting, is you start instrumenting everything, including, you know, getting direct LAN to site insight into how your users are using what you're deploying, and that causes the ability to pivot very rapidly, daily, weekly, into, you know, guiding where you're going to take your next iterations. To me, that's what's really taking this way past what you typically saw in an agile-- >> So what's happening to this traditional IT function? How is it adapting? You know, is it bi-modal, is there subtraction layer coming in, is there an equilibrium being reached between old and new? How would you describe what's going on? >> Fascinating question. What I often see in most of the enterprises I work in, is, they have a couple of investments going on. They're on a journey, a dev transformation journey, and a lot of that is, you know, really at the core of it, embracing DevOps. But what you'll see is, there's groups really pushing the envelope in these teams with cloud-native, micro service development, really all about speed, how quickly can they take small teams, get the idea into market? But then what you also see going on is, large sets of very valuable assets that data transactional systems, and how do you start embracing more, and more automation, to really reduce the cycle times, improve the service levels, and to effectively, start taking cost out of that full equation, that full life-cycle. So, what you're seeing, is a lot of automation coming into the existing IT environment. You're seeing a lot more of taking down of the silos of ops, and development teams, and that's going on in the core areas, and in the more cloud-native area, you're seeing, there's actually a common team put together, and they basically own the whole spectrum. They build it, they run it, the whole piece. >> You would think the competitive implications of this are huge. Without naming names, are you, at this point, able to discern patterns where organizations that are implementing this type of approach, are becoming more competitive, becoming more profitable, gaining share. Do we have enough evidence of that yet? >> Yes. Well, Gene, we were talking about Gene Kim earlier, and you can see, from a lot of the studies he has, that you'll see how much more effective and high-performance you're getting out of teams that are really embracing the best practices DevOps, and it is translating into financial results. So, you are seeing that bridge occur, but, part of what got me thinking about, is, what we were talking about earlier, the analytics that we've been exploring in the, in the team insights, and how the patterns you see, in how teams are interacting, and their code, and, you know, where are the core committers, the extended community, and extended community, the extended ring outside of that. You can begin to see patterns that are working well, patterns that are starting to have problems. It might actually be an architecture issue-- >> A self-healing concept too, if you think about it. This is actually taking it to like, social media has the same problem, on Twitter, runs with the same voice. You could have a zillion followers, and not have any influence, or have, you know, 100 followers and have a lot of influence, based on, that's no measure for that. You're getting at something that's more scoring-oriented, and analytical. That's interesting to me, I'm going to follow up on that, maybe another time. The question I want to ask you, 'cause I want to, I can't get it out of my mind, 'cause you mentioned the cloud-native, it's got me, kind of really, you know, riffing on this. We believe it's a multi-cloud world, right? And there's going to be a variety of clouds, not a winner take all, and they're all going to have differentiation, but having the traverse clouds is going to be really, really important. So, Kubernetes is kind of interesting to me, because you're looking at Kubernetes really kind of coming in and saying, hey, we could actually be a factor in orchestrating, and managing the sets of containers and micro services. And so, it's almost like a whole 'nother land-grab is going on around Kubernetes, because, it's so delicate. Can you share thoughts on that? Because, it's kind of nuanced, Kubernetes is, has got great traction in containers and micro services, but it's super-important. Why is it important, and why is it fragile, or is it fragile? In the sense of its importance, and not to be forked or tweaked. >> First, it's growing very rapidly. The use of containers for development and building, largely cloud-native micro service applications, is growing at a very rapid rate. And then, the ability to set-up these Kube clusters in different clouds, to be able to take advantage of the characteristics or services that are, are in those different clouds, including, you know, maybe you want to set-up a cluster near where your data is so you can have the processing local to that data, maybe you want to set-up clusters around certain security, or privacy, or regulatory policies. So, Kube is really providing, almost a platform-like layer for the containers, that is very robust. I wouldn't say it's fragile, but, with that flexibility, to setting that up, and where you want to setup that-- >> It allows customers to really figure out where to put workloads that matter. So, IoT would be a great use case for this. IoT, say, hey, you know what? This cloud is awesome at this and, put that app over there, and this one goes over here, 'cause it's got something over there that I like, but now, you need to have, I mean, is that kind of where, this is like, interoperability of networking in like, the 80s, in 90s, when that whole trend started booming is really its importance. >> Yes, yes-- >> Its openness. >> Well, the openness is critical. A lot of what we saw in distributed computing and the connectivity between clusters will be critical, but I do want to get to that point you mentioned on the openness; to me, openness is critical from a number of dimensions. One, certainly for inter-operability, and portability, but probably the most important is the rallying point for innovation, that you get these ecosystems, and with open technologies, which really is an open governance with open standards, you find a lot of creativity and innovation occurring within that base, and that, to me, is what really causes these environments to explode and take off. >> And if they can take that openness into the data level, then you're going to have a perfect storm of innovation, because now, you've got open source, which is thriving, and continues to be great, tier one by the way. >> And you're choosing to invest so much, and give back so much to the community. Not everybody does that, but you've made a business case for that. Why that strategy? I mean, it's IBM, you would think, you know, historically, IBM, very closed. But, you are almost overly-aggressive about your open source investments. >> Yeah. Not even sure it's historical, it dates back a long time, quite a while ago-- >> Yeah, that's true. >> Dave: You can go back, all the way to Linux. >> Yeah, Linux was the, they were the main player in Linux. >> You go back, obviously, the internet itself, TCP/IP, Linux, Java, Eclipse-- >> Track record's amazing. >> To me, all these industry breakthroughs, things that shape the industry are often, at its core, there were, at critical places, there was an open ecosystem, an open governance, open technology that really enabled it to just expand and grow at a tremendous rate. >> I think blockchain is perfect for you guys right now. A great example of, and in, might, people might be saying, oh, a little bit early, I think that bet is going to be playing out well. If you take the open source, and this whole digital value thing, very interesting. Well, I mean, final thought: what are you excited about right now? I mean, as an IBM Fellow, you get the canvas within the tech space, obviously, a lot to pull, it's kind of intoxicating these days. We kind of went down memory lane with some old ways, but, there's a ton of great new things happening. What are you excited about? I mean, what's getting you buzzed up about the current tech scene? >> The things that are really, I find fascinating and exciting now, is the different ways we're learning to apply AI, cognitive machine-learning into the different systems. We just, sort of, covering it just a little bit, in the DevOps space itself, but we're learning to apply it from the end of test, to understanding how we can predict where we have problematic code files, and how you would improve your test or skills, to the other spectrum of how is the community actually operating? Is the community healthy, is it growing? How are my projects and my teams working together? How healthy is that, are there issues that I have to start looking at? Do I have a design issue, an architecture issue, a squad issue? So, I can start doing that. This is all, we're learning how to take in big data and apply machine learning to this to get these types of insights. And to me, you know, that's just one spectrum of how we're applying it, but that's, to me, what's so exciting, is how we're applying it. You know, some of the examples that were shown with blockchain and cognitive, and in IoT, and AI. >> Dave is changing the game. The algorithms are coming out as more like libraries, not as custom stuff, and you've got the compute over the top. It's like, I wish I was 15 again, you know? What a great time to be in the tech industries, a computer scientist or any kind of science field right now. >> It is a great time. >> It's just a super time. Appreciate it, Dave, thanks for coming on theCUBE. Dave Lindquist, IBM Fellow, vice president of DevOps and the cloud at IBM, sharing his insight, great job. IBM's coverage continues here at day two, here on theCUBE, I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante. Stay with us for our wrap after this short break. (percussive tones)