welcome back to the seaport in boston massachusetts with cities crazy with bruins and celtics talk but we're here we're talking red hat linux open shift ansible and ashesh badani is here he's the senior vice president and the head of products at red hat fresh off the keynotes had amex up in the state of great to see you face to face amazing that we're here now after two years of of the isolation economy welcome back thank you great to see you again as well and you as well paul yeah so no shortage of announcements uh from red hat this week paul wrote a piece on siliconangle.com i got my yellow highlights i've been through all the announcements which is your favorite baby hard for me to choose hard for me to choose um i'll talk about real nine right well nine's exciting um and in a weird way it's exciting because it's boring right because it's consistent three years ago we committed to releasing a major well uh every three years right so customers partners users can plan for it so we released the latest version of rel in between we've been delivering releases every six months as well minor releases a lot of capabilities that are bundled in around security automation edge management and then rel is also the foundation of the work we announced with gm with the in-vehicle operating system so you know that's extremely exciting news for us as well and the collaboration that we're doing with them and then a whole host of other announcements around you know cloud services work around devsecops and so on so yeah a lot of news a lot of announcements i would say rel nine and the work with gm probably you know comes right up to the top i wanted to get to one aspect of the rail 9 announcement that is the the rose centos streams in that development now in december i think it was red hat discontinued development or support for for centos and moved to central streams i'm still not clear what the difference is between the two can you clarify that i think we go into a situation especially with with many customers many partners as well that you know didn't sort of quite exactly uh get a sense of you know where centos was from a life cycle perspective so was it upstream to rel was it downstream to rel what's the life cycle for itself as well and then there became some sort of you know implied notions around what that looked like and so what we decided was to say well we'll make a really clean break and we'll say centos stream is the upstream for enterprise linux from day one itself partners uh you know software partners hardware partners can collaborate with us to develop rel and then take it all the way through life cycle right so now it becomes a true upstream a true place for development for us and then rel essentially comes uh out as a series of releases based on the work that we do in a fast-moving center-os environment but wasn't centos essentially that upstream uh development environment to begin with what's the difference between centos stream yeah it wasn't wasn't um it wasn't quite upstream it was actually a little bit downstream yeah it was kind of bi-directional yeah and yeah and so then you know that sort of became an implied life cycle to it when there really wasn't one but it was just became one because of some usage and adoption and so now this really clarifies the relationship between the two we've heard feedback for example from software partners users saying hey what do i do for development because i used you know centervis in the past we're like yup we have real for developers available we have rel for small teams available we have rel available for non-profit organizations up and so we've made rail now available in various form factors for the needs that folks had and they were perhaps using centos for because there was no such alternative or rel history so language so now it's this clarity so that's really the key point there so language matters a lot in the technology business we've seen it over the years the industry coalesces around you know terminology whether it was the pc era everything was pc this pc that the internet era and and certainly the cloud we we learned a lot of language from the likes of you know aws two pizza teams and working backwards and things like that became common commonplace hybrid and multi-cloud are kind of the the parlance of the day you guys use hybrid you and i have talked about this i feel like there's something new coming i don't think my term of super cloud is the right necessary terminology but it signifies something different and i feel like your announcements point to that within your hybrid umbrella point being so much talk about the edge and it's we heard paul cormier talk about new hardware architectures and you're seeing that at the edge you know what you're doing with the in-vehicle operating system these are new the cloud isn't just a a bunch of remote services in the cloud anymore it's on-prem it's a cloud it's cross-clouds it's now going out to the edge it's something new and different i think hybrid is your sort of term for that but it feels like it's transcending hybrid are your thoughts you know really really great question actually since you and i talked dave i've been spending some time you know sort of noodling just over that right and you're right right there's probably some terminology something sort of you know that will get developed you know either by us or you know in collaboration with the industry you know where we sort of almost have the connection almost like a meta cloud right that we're sort of working our way towards because there's if you will you know the cloud right so you know on premise you know virtualized uh bare metal by the way you know increasingly interesting and important you know we do a lot of work with nvidia folks want to run specific workloads there we announced support for arm right another now popular architecture especially as we go out to the edge so obviously there's private cloud public cloud then the edge becomes a continuum now you know on that process we actually have a major uh uh shipping company so uh a cruise lines that's talking about using openshift on cruise lines right so you know that's the edge right last year we had verizon talking about you know 5g and you know ran in the next generation there to then that's the edge when we talk to retail the store front's the edge right you talk to a bank you know the bank environments here so everyone's got a different kind of definition of edge we're working with them and then when we you know announce this collaboration with gm right now the edge there becomes the automobile so if you think of this as a continuum right you know bare metal private cloud public cloud take it out to the edge now we're sort of almost you know living in a world of you know a little bit of abstractions and making sure that we are focused on where uh data is being generated and then how can we help ensure that we're providing a consistent experience regardless of you know where meta meta cloud because i can work in nfts i can work a little bit we're going to get through this whole thing without saying metaverse i was hoping i do want to ask you about about the edge and the proliferation of hardware platforms paul comey mentioned this during the keynote today hardware is becoming important yeah there's a lot of people building hardware it's in development now for areas like uh like intelligent devices and ai how does this influence your development priorities you have all these different platforms that you need to support yeah so um we think about that a lot mostly because we have engagements with so many partners hardware right so obviously there's more traditional partners i'd say like the dell and the hpes that we work with we've historically worked with them also working with them in in newer areas uh with regard to appliances that are being developed um and then the work that we do with partners like nvidia or new architectures like arm and so our perspective is this will be uh use case driven more than anything else right so there are certain environments right where you have arm-based devices other environments where you've got specific workloads that can take advantage of being built on gpus that we'll see increasingly being used especially to address that problem and then provide a solution towards that so our belief has always been look we're going to give you a consistent platform a consistent abstraction across all these you know pieces of hardware um and so you mr miss customer make the best choice for yourself a couple other areas we have to hit on i want to talk about cloud services we've got to talk about security leave time to get there but why the push to cloud services what's driving that it's actually customers they're driving right so we have um customers consistently been asking us say you know love what you give us right want to make sure that's available to us when we consume in the cloud so we've made rel available for example on demand right you can consume this directly via public cloud consoles we are now making available via marketplaces uh talked about ansible available as a managed service on azure openshift of course available as a managed service in multiple clouds um all of this also is because you know we've got customers who've got these uh committed spends that they have you know with cloud providers they want to make sure that the environments that they're using are also counting towards that at the same time give them flexibility give them the choice right if in certain situations they want to run in the data center great we have that solution for them other cases they want to procure from the cloud and run it there we're happy to support them there as well let's talk about security because you have a lot of announcements like security everywhere yeah um and then some specific announcements as well i i always think about these days in the context of the solar wind supply chain hack would this have you know how would this have affected it but tell us about what's going on in security your philosophy there and the announcements that you guys made so our secure announcements actually span our entire portfolio yeah right and and that's not an accident right that's by design because you know we've really uh been thinking and emphasizing you know how we ensure that security profile is raised for users both from a malicious perspective and also helping accidental issues right so so both matters so one huge amounts of open source software you know out of the world you know and then estimates are you know one in ten right has some kind of security vulnerability um in place a massive amount of change in where software is being developed right so rate of change for example in kubernetes is dramatic right much more than even than linux right entire parts of kubernetes get rewritten over over a three-year period of time so as you introduce all that right being able to think for example about you know what's known as shift left security or devsec ops right how do we make sure we move security closer to where development is actually done how do we ensure we give you a pattern so you know we introduced a software supply chain pattern uh via openshift delivers complete stack of code that you know you can go off and run that follows best practices uh including for example for developers you know with git ops and support on the pipelines front a whole bunch of security capabilities in rel um a new image integrity measurement architecture which allows for a better ability to see in a post install environment what the integrity of the packages are signing technology they're incorporating open shift as well as an ansible so it's it's a long long list of cables and features and then also more and more defaults that we're putting in place that make it easier for example for someone not to hurt themselves accidentally on security front i noticed that uh this today's batch of announcements included support within openshift pipelines for sigstor which is an open source project that was birthed actually at red hat right uh we haven't heard a whole lot about it how important is zig store to to you know your future product direction yeah so look i i think of that you know as you know work that's you know being done out of our cto's office and obviously security is a big focus area for them um six store's great example of saying look how can we verify content that's in uh containers make sure it's you know digitally signed that's appropriate uh to be deployed across a bunch of environments but that thinking isn't maybe unique uh for us uh in the container side mostly because we have you know two decades or more of thinking about that on the rel side and so fundamentally containers are being built on linux right so a lot of the lessons that we've learned a lot of the expertise that we've built over the years in linux now we're starting to you know use that same expertise trying to apply it to containers and i'm my guess is increasingly we're going to see more of the need for that you know into the edge as well i i i picked up on that too let me ask a follow-up question on sigstor so if i'm a developer and i and i use that capability it it ensures the provenance of that code is it immutable the the signature uh and the reason i ask is because again i think of everything in the context of the solar winds where they were putting code into the the supply chain and then removing it to see what happened and see how people reacted and it's just a really scary environment yeah the hardest part you know in in these environments is actually the behavior change so what's an example of that um packages built verified you know by red hat when it went from red hat to the actual user have we been able to make sure we verify the integrity of all of those when they were put into use um and unless we have behavior that you know make sure that we do that then we find ourselves in trouble in the earliest days of open shift uh we used to get knocked a lot by by developers because i said hey this platform's really hard to use we investigate hey look why is that happening so by default we didn't allow for root access you know and so someone's using you know the openshift platform they're like oh my gosh i can't use it right i'm so used to having root access we're like no that's actually sealed by default because that's not a good security best practice now over a period of time when we you know randomly enough times explained that enough times now behavior changes like yeah that makes sense now right so even just kind of you know there's behaviors the more that we can do for example in in you know the shift left which is one of the reasons by the way why we bought uh sac rocks a year right right for declarative security contain native security so threat detection network segmentation uh watching intrusions you know malicious behavior is something that now we can you know essentially make native into uh development itself all right escape key talk futures a little bit so i went downstairs to the expert you know asked the experts and there was this awesome demo i don't know if you've seen it of um it's like a design thinking booth with what happened how you build an application i think they were using the who one of their apps um during covet and it's you know shows the the granularity of the the stack and the development pipeline and all the steps that have to take place and it strikes me of something we've talked about so you've got this application development stack if you will and the database is there to support that and then over here you've got this analytics stack and it's separate and we always talk about injecting more ai into apps more data into apps but there's separate stacks do you see a day where those two stacks can come together and if not how do we inject more data and ai into apps what are your thoughts on that so great that's another area we've talked about dave in the past right um so we definitely agree with that right and and what final shape it takes you know i think we've got some ideas around that what we started doing is starting to pick up specific areas where we can start saying let's go and see what kind of usage we get from customers around it so for example we have openshift data science which is basically a way for us to talk about ml ops right and you know how can we have a platform that allows for different models that you can use we can uh test and train data different frameworks that you can then deploy in an environment of your choice right and we run that uh for you up and assist you in in uh making sure that you're able to take the next steps you want with with your machine learning algorithms um there's work that we've uh introduced at summit around databases service so essentially our uh a cloud service that allows for deep as an easy way for customers to access either mongodb or or cockroach in a cloud native fashion and all of these things that we're sort of you know experimenting with is to be able to say look how do we sort of bring the world's closer together right off database of data of analytics with a core platform and a core stack because again right this will become part of you know one continuum that we're going to work with it's not i'd like your continuum that's that's i think really instructive it's not a technical barrier is what i'm hearing it's maybe organizational mindset i can i should be able to insert a column into my my my application you know development pipeline and insert the data i mean kafka tensorflow in there there's no technical reason i can't can't do that it's just we've created these sort of separate stovepipe organizations 100 right right so they're different teams right you've got the platform team or the ops team and you're a separate dev team there's a separate data team there's a separate storage team and each of them will work you know slightly differently independently right so the question then is i mean that's sort of how devops came along then you're like oh wait a minute yeah don't forget security and now we're at devsecops right so the more of that that we can kind of bring together i think the more convergence that we'll see when i think about the in-vehicle os i see the the that is a great use case for real-time ai inferencing streaming data i wanted to ask you that about that real quickly because at the very you know just before the conference began we got an announcement about gm but your partnership with gm it seems like this came together very quickly why is it so important for red hat this is a whole new category of application that you're going to be working on yeah so we've been working with gm not publicly for a while now um and it was very clear that look you know gm believes this is the future right you know electric vehicles into autonomous driving and we're very keen to say we believe that a lot of attributes that we've got in rel that we can bring to bear in a different form factor to assist with the different needs that exist in this industry so one it's interesting for us because we believe that's a use case that you know we can add value to um but it's also the future of automotive right so the opportunity to be able to say look we can get open source technology we can collaborate out with the community to fundamentally help transform that industry uh towards where it wants to go you know that that's just the passion that we have that you know is what wakes us up every morning you're opening into that yeah thank you for coming on the cube really appreciate your time and your insights and uh have a great rest of rest of the event thank you for having me metacloud it's a thing it's a thing right it's it's it's kind of there we're gonna we're gonna see it emerge over the next decade all right you're watching the cube's coverage of red hat summit 2022 from boston keep it right there be right back you

>>Mhm Yes. Hello and welcome back to the cube coverage of red hat summit 2021 Virtual. I'm john furrier host of the Q. We've got a great lineup here. We've got two great guests just bad padan, E. S. V. P. Of cloud platforms at red hat and Tracy ranking VP of open shift engineering at Red Hat folks. Thanks for coming on. Good to see. You got some big news, you guys have made some acquisitions. Uh stack rocks you guys bought into red hat was a really big deal. People want to know, what's the story? How's it going? What's the uptake? What's the integration, how's it going? >>Right, thanks john, thanks for having us on. Um so yeah, we're really excited with stack rocks acquisition being the team on board. Uh Well, the first thing to note before even why we did it uh was for for you and and then the beers have been following us closely. This is our first acquisition as red Hat being part of IBM. So, so, so quite big for us from that perspective as well. Right? Continue to maintain our independence um within uh IBM uh and I really appreciate that way of working together. Um but saying all of that aside, you know, as a company have always been focused on ensuring that were direct enterprise capabilities to just sort of doing that for two decades. With with Lennox, security has always been a big part of our story, right, ensuring that, you know, we're finding cbs updating uh and sending out patches to our customers and doing that in a reliable fashion running mission critical applications. We applied that same if you will um security mindset on the community side with the open ship platform. Um we've invested insecurity ourselves organically, right, you know, uh in various areas and making it more secure, all right, can't run containers uh as Root by default, uh investing in things like role based access control and so on. And we really felt like we want to deepen our commitment to security. Uh and so, you know, in conversations with stack rocks, we found just a great fit, just a great team building a really interesting approach to community security, right? You know, very declared of approach to it. Uh you know, focus on a vision around this notion of shift left. But you've probably been hearing from that because we're a little bit right. Which is this uh idea that, you know, we're in the world moving from devops to death setups. Uh and the approach that sack rocks were saying, so great team, great product, really great vision with regard to kind of weather going forward and finding a nice alignment between, you know what, you know, they've been thinking about the value that we want to bring >>Yeah, I want to dig into the depths cops, piece of it. But you brought up the IBM acquisition as part of now Red Hat bought IBM you know it's just you remember back in 2019 I interviewed Arvin on the cube when he was at IBM you guys were still independent and he had a smile on his face. He is pro cloud, he is all about cloud Native and even that interview I had no idea what was going on behind the scenes but I was kind of drilling him on some of the things that were important at that time which are now certainly relevant today which is cloud Native, Agile development Programmable infrastructure. I don't think we touched on security that much was kind of inherent in the conversation. He was like all smiling, he loves the cloud Native and and this is where it comes into the relevant, I have to ask you, what was it like to get this through? IBM where they're like girl green light or was it, was it different? What was different about this acquisition? >>John great, great question for you to ask. And you know, I will say that, uh, you know, everyone's heard the stories they're telling us. They get, you know, part of IBM, you know, it's definitely working on red hat jOHn the cube we've talked to you and several of your colleagues about that. Um, the great thing has been that, look, the redhead way of working, uh, are still pushing forward with regard to our commitment to open source, uh, and our culture, you know, is still the way it is. And I have to give huge credit not just to urban and his and his team, but definitely to orbit right. He's always champion, He's champion rather acquisition. He's champion kind of, you know, the independence that we've had and he takes very, very firm stance around it. Um, and look, IBM uh, story company uh, in the United States and really in the world, um, they have, there was working and you know, for redhead, they've kind of said, look, we'll give you a pass path, right? So, uh, getting the acquisition through, if you will, diarrhea processes, um, really was, was hugely supported by, you know, from mormon, but all the way down. Russian strategic >>strategic bet with the dollars involved trace, they want to get you in this because, you know, one of the things about shift left and getting security built in by default, which has always been part of red hat, that's never been an issue. It just extends as developers want to have native security built in. There's a technology angle to this as well. So, um, obviously cloud native is super important. What investments are you guys making with this acquisition and how does that translate to customer benefits? >>Yeah, I mean the one thing that is really important about the stock rocks acquisition and kind of, you know, key for us is, you know, this was a cube native solution and I think that's really, you know, was important piece as to why stock rocks might have been, you know, was a great fit for us. Um, and so you know, what we've been trying to do in the short time that that team has been on board with us is really, you know, taken a deep look and understanding where are the intersection points of some of the things that we have been trying to focus on, you know, just with inside of, you know, open shift in red hat in general and where do they have bring the additional value. Um, and really trying to make sure that when we create this solution and ultimately it is a solution that's cohesive across the board. Um, we don't add confusion too. You know what, some of the things that maybe we already do this team knows, you know, how to they know their customer base. They really know what the customers are looking for. And we are just trying to absorb, I would say so much of this information uh as we are trying to, you know, create what the right road map will be uh for stack rocks from a long term and infrared had ultimately in the security space. I mean, as the chef said, I mean we are red hats known for being, you know, security mind focus built on top of realm, you know, uh the leader and so we want to make sure that what we've got that actually serves, you know, the developers being able to not just secure the environment and the platform, but also the workloads, customers need that security from us. Um and build it in so that we have, you know, into the cube native >>controls. >>So stack rocks was known for reinventing and security enterprise security with cloud native. How is it complimentary? How does it fit in? Can you guys just quickly talk to that point because um like you said, you guys had security but as kubernetes and containers in general continue to rise up and and kubernetes continue to become a hybrid cloud kind of linchpin for applications. Um where's the synergy? Where's where does this connect? And what are some of the uh the part of the areas where it's it's fitting in nicely or or any overlaps that you can talk about as well? >>Yeah, I can start and then maybe Tracy if you want to add to that securities of it's a wide space. Right? So, you know, just saying security is like, well, you know what security you're talking about, you're talking about, you know, and use the security, like what your desktop are you talking about? You know, intrusion prevention? I mean, it's a huge, huge, you know, space. Uh you know, many companies devoted to the entire spectrum, you know, self has a very robust security business. We're very focused on uniting Tracy. Was talking about this, the Kubernetes Native security part of this. Right. You know, do we have the appropriate runtime uh, controls in place? Uh You know, our policies configured appropriately Well, if they're in one cluster, are they being applied consistently across, you know, every cluster? How do we make sure that, you know, we make security the domain, not just of the operators but also uh in in uh make it easier for it to be adopted at development time. So, you know, there's a, there's a, if you will, a very sort of uh a lot of surface area for security, we're trying to really think about the pieces that are most relevant for our enterprise customers and the ones that are deploying it at scale. And I'm sure we can build on it. Having said that, john what I do want to add also is that because expands even of Cuban any security is so large, there is a lot of room for our partners to play. Right? And so before you asked me that question, I want to say that there is space. Right? So you know, I've had conversations with you know, all the other folks in the cloud native security space. We know them well, we've been working with them over the years and we could do to look forward to ensure that they're building over and above the foundation of Berlin. >>So plenty of beachhead, what you're saying from a, from a security sample, you guys hit the table stakes added into the product, but there's so much surface area going on with this hybrid cloud and soon to be multi cloud that you're saying this room for partners to play. >>Exactly, right, >>okay. Tracy quick under the hood, you know, actually shift left. That's kind of the mindset for developers who are writing modern applications might not want to get under the hood, who just wanted all the program ability of security and not have to come back to it. I mean that seems to be the complaint that I hear. It's like okay I gotta come back and do a security, more security work. I just wrote the code that was last week or yesterday and that seems to be the developer productivity. Then there's also under the hood devops what how does this all fit? >>Yeah, so it's uh let's take a take a step back and this is how I kind of like to think about it. So we are trying to look at, you know, how do we just enable in some of the C. I. C. D. The tooling that we have? How do we actually take and enable some of the technology that was already available in stock rocks today and actually put it into those tools. Because if we can make it easy for you to not just develop your application and, you know, integrated in with what you're, the tooling is that you're trying to use for the entire life cycle of developing your application. It then becomes exactly what you didn't say, you know, what they're doing now is it's an after thought. We don't need it to be an afterthought. Um and I think, you know, we're seeing the changing from a customer mindset where um they're become customers are becoming a lot more aware of these things. So if we actually get this into, you know, some of the Argo and the ci cd pipe pipeline work, then it just becomes something natural and not a secondary thought because actually when it's a secondary thought, uh we have exposures and that's not what a customer wants when they're creating, you know, creating these workloads, they're trying to rapidly create the workloads, so we need to make it um to have those integration points in as quickly >>as possible. >>Totally nailed. I mean there's productivity issues and there's also the top line which is security. Great stuff. Congratulations on that acquisition. Security continues to be built in from the beginning. That's what people want. They want productivity want want security, great stuff, Great acquisition. Congratulations. Um Next next segment I want to get into is uh open shifts around telemetry. Tell us about telemetry for open shift. What is this about? >>Yeah, another big interesting topic for us. So over a year ago we released open Ship for and you know, we learned a lot of lessons, you know, shipping open ship three up and over the years and really getting feedback from hundreds of customers around the globe. One of the things obviously we heard from a lot was you know, make install the upgrade experience better. Right. But you know, we were thinking about how can we take that forward to the next level, which is is there a way for us to say, you know, let these clusters they connected up so we can get a better sense of cluster help and help with remote health monitoring will be able to proactively provide information back to our customers around, let's say, you know, if applications are healthy clusters healthy and how they're running and how we can help them um could figure them if they're not. Um And so that led us to introducing uh inflammatory remote health monitoring directly into open ship for as a value that we can provide to customers. Um And what that really starts doing is starts bringing this notion of a public cloud, like experience to customers with clusters run across the hybrid cloud. Right? So you have the expectation that, you know, your clusters are monitored and watched over in the public cloud and we want to make sure we can provide that to customers regardless of, you know, where they're running in. So, so that's just >>a quick question on that insights for open shit. That's what you're getting to. Is that on premise? And in the cloud? So it's hybrid environment, is that correct? >>Exactly. Right. So, the insights for open ship is all about that, Right? So how can be proactively, you know, uh identify risk helped remediated? How can we uh do things like, for example, give you recommendations, cost optimization, right insights around around around that. Uh and to your point, right? The goal is to make it completely hybrid. So, it's obviously a new area right for customers want Leslie used to that, you know, in an on premise environment, they're used to that in a public cloud or cloud native environment. And we're trying to make sure we bring that consistently across to our customers, you know, regardless of where they're running apart. >>Tracy. Talk about the the developer productivity involved because if you have telemetry and you have insight into what's going on in the infrastructure and the data, what's going on the application, you can be more proactive, You don't have to get pulled into these rabbit holes of troubleshooting. Oh, is a trace over here or something going on over here. Are clusters going down or should I could have caught that there's a lot of, you know, good intentions with with the code and then all of a sudden new code gets pushed and then also that triggers this to go off and you have all these kind of dependencies, day two operations, many people call this kind of that phenomenon where everything looks good and then you start pushing more stuff more code and then the cluster goes down and then it's like wait, that could have been avoided. That was a dumb error, we could have fixed that this is kind of the basic what I call human software error kind of stuff that's not intended. The telemetry help this area. >>Yeah, it does. And actually one point that even to take it further, that I think it's important is our customers can learn from each other not even having to talk to each other, which is the beauty of what telemetry is and what redhead insights, rope and shift is. You know, what we have been able to see is you know, there are certain characteristics that happen even across, you know, certain groups of customers but they don't know that they don't talk to each other, but the telemetry is giving us a night into what some of those patterns are. And so when a customer in one site starts to have, we start to see telemetry, you know, you know, maybe a. T. D. Is going down for a certain reason and and we can determine that we then have the ability to take that telemetry and you know, be able to send alerts back to all the other customers and say, hey we recognize this might be becoming an issue, You know, here's how you might re mediate it or hey we've already put a fix out for this issue that we're starting to see you having an issue, you should probably take action on. So it's an increasing the the efficiency of customers without them necessarily having to, you know, constantly be understanding, monitoring, you know, watching everything like they had had to do from of the three perspective, we're now giving them some of the insights of what we know as developers back to them, >>you know, that's interesting. I think that's really key because it's talking to a friend last night we just talked about cybersecurity and we're talking about how a lot of these things are patterns that have that are the same and people just don't talk to each other. There's no shared insights. I think this is an interesting dynamic where you can get the collective intelligence of other patterns and then share that. So the question that I mean that's that's a game changer in my opinion. So that's awesome. The question I have is can you guys push alerts and recommendations to the customers? So from this data? So how does that work? Is that built into the product? Can I get some proactive notifications and saying, hey, you know, your cluster might go down and we've seen this before, we've seen this movie. I mean she is that built in. >>Yeah, so john you're keeping it exactly where we're taking this, right? And I think Tracy started putting out some breadcrumbs for you there. So uh, first get comfortable with the foundation was laid out, get clusters connected right. Then information starts going, reported, we start getting exactly to what you said, john write a set of patterns that we can see Tracy, start talking about what we can, if we see pattern on one end, we can go off and help customers on other end. Now, if you take this forward interest for your viewers today, um introduce a I you know, into this, right? And then we can start almost starting to proactive now of saying, look, you know, following actions are going to be committed or we expect them to be committed. You know, here's what the outcome is a result of that. Here's what we recommend for you to do, right? So start proactive remediation along that. So that is exactly, you know, the surface that we're trying to lay down here and I think this is a huge, >>huge game changer. Well, great stuff, want to move on the next we're getting go on for hours on that one topic. I think telemetry is a super important trend. Uh you guys are on top of a great, great job to bring in the Ai piece. I think that's super cool. Let's get back to the end of blocking and tackling Tracy. You know, one of the things that we're seeing with devops as it goes mainstream now, you've got def sec apps in there too, is you've got the infrastructure and you've got the modern application development, modern application developers, just wanna code, be productive, all that security shifting left, everyone's all happy that things are going great under the hood. You have a whole set of developers working on infrastructure. The end of the customers don't want to manage their own infrastructure. How is red hat focused on these two groups? Because you got this SRE like cloud Ops persona developing in the enterprise and you got the developers, it's kind of like almost two worlds coming together, how you, how you helping customers, you know, control their infrastructure and manage it better. >>Yeah, so great question. And you know, this really plays to the strength of what, you know, we have been trying to champion here at red hat for for many years now around the hybrid cloud and this, you know, hopefully everybody's recently heard about the announcement we've made with our new offering Rosa in partnership with amazon. Um you know, we've got different offerings that enables customers to really focus, as you mentioned on the key aspects that they are concerned about, which is how do they drive their businesses, how do they create their applications, their workloads that they need to and offload, you know, the need for having to understand all of the I. T. Infrastructure that's underneath. Um We want to red hat to reduce the operational complexity that customers are having um and give them the ability to really focus on what's important for them. Um how can they be able to scale out their applications, their businesses and continue to add value where they need to have and so um I think it's great we're seeing a huge uptake right now and we've got customers and they understand completely this hybrid cloud model where they're, you know, purchasing open shift um for certain, you know, applications and workloads that they want to run inside their own data centers. And then for those that they know that they don't, you know, don't have to be inside their own data centers. They don't want to have all of that operational complexity. They want to utilize some of the clouds. That's when they're starting to look at other things like rosa or open shift dedicated and and really starting to find the right mix that works well for their business. >>So are you saying that you guys are going to the next level because the previous, I won't say generation but the current situation was okay, you're born in the cloud or you lift and shift to the cloud, You do that manually, then you go on premise to build that cloud operations. Now you're in a hybrid environment. So you're saying if I get this right that you guys are providing automation around standing up in building services on AWS and cloud, public cloud and hybrid, is that kinda what you're getting at? >>Yeah. So the to go to the higher multi cloud world, right? You want platform consistency, right? Running my application running on a platform consistently, you know, where we go. Right. Tracy started talking about this idea of in some cases you say, well I've got the infrastructure team, I've got the ops team, johnny talked about this notion of, well the dwarves can be hard, sometimes right to some groups. Um, and so hey, red hat or hey redhead, plus, you know, my hyper scale of choice, you know, take that off of my hands, Right. Run that for me consistently yourself. Right. So I focused on my application uh and the management of infrastructure is something that's on you Tracy talked about rosa, that's our joint uh first party service that you know, we've got with amazon were directly available in amazon's console, you can go pull that down, right. You'll see red hat open shift on AWS, right on their uh we've got a similar one with Microsoft Azure Tracy mentioned open dedicated, we stand up the platform, we have our own sorry team that manages it with IBM as well as with google. So you pick your cloud of choice and we'll make sure, you know, we'll give you a platform that if you as a customer so choose to self manage. Great, go for it. If you'd like for us to manage it directly ourselves or in conjunction with the cloud provider and provided to you as a native service, you know, we can do that for you as well. Right? So that day to obsolete, you know, challenge that we're talking about. You know, it's something that we can get your hands if you want us to. >>That's really cool. You gotta manage service. They can do it themselves whatever they want. They can do it on public cloud and hybrid. Great stuff. Yeah, I think that's the key. Um, and that's, that's, that's killer. Now, the next question is my favorite. I want to ask you guys both pretend I'm a customer and I'm like, okay, Tracy shit, tell me what's in it for me. What is open shifts and red hat doing for me is the customer? What are you bringing to the table for me? What are you gonna do for me? What is red hat doing for me today? So if you have the kind of bottom line we were in the elevator or probably I ask you, I like what I'm hearing. Why? Why are you cool? Why are you relevant? What's in it for me? >>You >>already start? Okay. Yeah, so I mean I think it's a couple of things that we let's just tie it back to the first initial blend. I mean we've got, we're enabling the customers to choose like where do they want to work that run their workloads, what do they want to focus on? I think that's the first thing. Um we're enabling them to also determine like what workloads do they want to put on there. We continue to expand the workloads that we are providing um capabilities to customers. You know most, you know one of the more recent ones we've had is you know, enablement of Windows containers a huge plus for us. Um, you know, it's just kind of talked about, dropped the buzzword ai you know, recently, you know, we're looking at that, we're talking about, you know, moving workloads need to go to the edge now. It's not just about being in the data centers, so it's about enablement. That's really what open shift as you know, bread and butter is, is, you know, let us, you know, create the ability for you to drive your workloads, whichever, whatever your workloads is, modernize those workloads um, in place them wherever you want to. >>Yes, your your answer. How would you say to that? >>I'll build on what Tracy said, right. She obviously took the, you know, build up tribal Benjamin perspective and I'll sort of talk about a business thing you're introducing, actually add threat at summit. So, you know, we go up and acquire stock rocks, you know, further deepen investment in communities or containment of security. Uh if you recall, john, we've talked to you about, you know, advanced cluster management team that we actually got from IBM incorporate that within red hat, um, to start providing, you know, those capabilities are consistent, you know, cluster policy, immigration management. Um, and you know, in the past we've made an acquisition of Core West, we've got a lot of technology from that incorporated the platform and also things like the quake container registry. What we're introducing address had some it is a way for us to package all of that together. So a customer doesn't say, look, you know, let me pick out a container platform here, let me go find, you know, somebody manage it over there. You let me see, you know what security you adhere. We introduced something called open shift platform plus right. Which is the packaging of, you know, core Open shift contain a platform uh, capabilities within uh, stack rocks, which we're calling advanced cluster security capabilities of cluster management, which is called advanced cluster management. And the quake container registry always want to make it much easier for customers to consume that. And again, you know, the goal is, you know, run that consistently in your hybrid multi club >>chef Tracy. Great, great segment, great insight. Um, here on the cloud platform and open shift under the hood. Uh, you guys are well positioned and I was talking about Arvin and idea who acquired red hat. You know, it's pretty clear that cloud native hybrid is the new cloud operating environment. That's clear. You guys are well positioned. And congratulations. Final question Chef. Take a minute to quickly put the plug in for open shift. What's next? Um, looking forward, what do you guys building on? Um, what's on the roadmap if you can negative share the road map, but yeah, tell us what you're thinking about. I mean you're innovating out in the open, love your shirt by the way and that's the red hat way, looking ahead. What's coming for? Open shift? >>So john I will say this, our roadmap is out in the open every quarter. Our product managers host the session right open to anybody, right? You know, customers prospect, competitors, anybody can can come on. Um, and uh, you hear about our road map, lots of interesting things they're working on uh, as you can imagine investments on the edge front, right? So that's across our portfolio, right on the open shift side, but also on learning platform as well as on the open stack front, make it easier to have, you know, slim down open shift. we'll run that you won't be able to run uh open ship in remote locations and then manage it. Um So expect for us uh you know, just to show you more work there, drinking things like uh ai and more workloads directly onto the platform, but you'll see what they're doing to get more Alex on what we're doing to take uh technologies that we've got called Open data hub to make it easier to run more data intensive, more ai ml types of frameworks directly a platform. Um And so that's a great interest, more workloads Tracy, start talking about that. Right, so Windows containers, support has G eight, uh and what's really awesome about that is that we've done that with Microsoft, right, so that offering is jointly supported by both us and our partners over at Microsoft uh virtualization, which is taking much machines and being able to run them as dangerous orchestrated by communities Um, and and doing more work, you know, on that front as well. So just a lot of different areas uh, were investigated and really, really excited to bring more workloads on 2:00. >>Well, Chef Tracy, great segment with a lot of data in there. Thanks for spending time in and providing that insight and uh, sharing the information. A lot of flowers blooming um, here in the cloud native environment, a lot of action. A lot of new stuff going on. Love the shift left. I think that's super relevant. You guys do a great job. Thanks for coming on. I appreciate it. >>Okay. >>This the cubes coverage of red hat summit. I'm john for a host of the cube. Thank you for watching.

>> Narrator: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with digital coverage of AnsibleFest 2020, brought to you by Red Hat. >> The ascendancy of massive clouds underscored the limits of human labor. People, they simply don't scale at the pace of today's technology. And this trend created an automation mandate for IT which has been further accentuated by the pandemic. The world is witnessing the build-out of a massively distributed system that comprises on-prem apps, public clouds and edge computing. The challenge we face is how to go from managing things you can see and touch to cost effectively managing, securing and scaling these vast systems. It requires an automation first mindset. Hello, everyone. This is Dave Vellante and welcome back to AnsibleFest 2020. We have a great panel to wrap up this show. With me are our three excellent guests and CUBE alums. Ashesh Badani is the Senior Vice President of Cloud Platforms at Red Hat. Ashesh, good to see you again. Thanks for coming on. >> Yeah, likewise. Thanks for having me on again, Dave. >> Stefanie Chiras is Vice President and General Manager of the RHEL Business Unit and my sports buddy. Stefanie, glad to see you back in the New England area. I knew you'd be back. >> Yeah, good to see you, Dave. Thanks for having us today. >> You're very welcome. And then finally, Joe Fitzgerald, longtime CUBE alum, Vice President and General Manager of the Management Business Unit at Red Hat. Joe, good to see you. >> Hey, Dave, good to be here with you. >> Ashesh, I'm going to start with you. Lay out the big picture for us. So how do you see this evolution to what we sometimes talk about as hybrid cloud, but really truly a hybrid cloud environment across these three platforms that I just talked about? >> Yeah, let me start off by echoing something that most of your viewers have probably heard in the past. There's always this notion about developers, developers, developers. And you know, that still holds true. We aren't going away from that anymore. Developers are the new kingmakers. But increasingly, as the scope and complexity of applications and services that are deployed in this heterogeneous environment increases, it's more and more about automation, automation, automation. In the times we live in today, even, you know, before dealing with the crises that, you know, we have, just the sheer magnitude of requirements that are being placed on enterprises and expectations from customers require us to be more and more focused on automating tasks which humans just can't keep up with. So you know, as we look forward, this conversation here today, you know, what Ansible's doing, you know, is squarely aimed at dealing with this complexity that we all face. >> So Stefanie, I wonder if you could talk about what it's going to take to implement what I call this true hybrid cloud, this connection and management of this environment. RHEL is obviously a key piece of that. That's going to be your business unit, but take us through your thoughts there. >> Yeah, so I'm kind of building on what Ashesh said. When we look at this hybrid cloud world, right, which now hybrid is much more than it was considered five years ago. It used to be hybrid was on-prem versus off-prem. Now, hybrid translates to many layers in the stack. It can be VMs hybrid with containers. It can be on-prem with off-prem and clearly with edge involved, as well. Whenever you start to require the ability to bridge across these, that's where we focus on having a platform that allows you to access sort of all of those and be able to deploy your applications in a simple way. When I look at what customers require, it's all about speed of deploying applications, right, build, deploy and run your applications. It's about stability, which is clearly where we're focused on RHEL being able to provide that stability across multiple types of hybrid deployment models. And third is all about scale. It is absolutely all about scale and that's across multiple ranges in hybrid, be it on-prem, off-prem, edge and that's where all of this automation comes in, so to me, it's really about where do you make those strategic decisions that allow you to choose, right, for the flexibility that you need and still be able to deploy applications with speed, have that stability, resiliency, and be able to scale. >> So Joe, let's talk about your swim lane and it's weird to even use that term, right? 'Cause as Stefanie just said, we're kind of breaking down all these silos that we talk in terms of platform, but how do you see this evolving, and specifically, what's the contribution from a management perspective? >> Right, so Stefanie and Ashesh talked about sort of speed, scale and complexity. Right, people are trying to deploy things faster or larger scale, and oh, by the way, keep everything highly available and secure. That's a challenge, right? And so, you know, interestingly enough, Red Hat, about five years ago, we recognized that automation was going to be a problem as people were moving into open hybrid clouds, which we've been working with our customers for years on. And so we acquired this small company called Ansible, which had some really early emerging technology, all open source, right, to do automation. And what we've done over the past five years is we've really amplified that automation and amplified the innovation in that community to be able to provide automation across a wide array of domains that you need to automate, right, and to be able to plug that in to all the different processes that people need in order to be able to go faster, but to track, manage, secure and govern these kind of environments. So we made this bet years ago and it's paying off for Red Hat in very big ways. >> I mean, no doubt about it. I mean, when you guys bought Ansible, so it wasn't clear that it was going to be the clear leader. It is now. I mean, it's pulled ahead of Chef, Puppet. You saw, you know, VMware bought Salt, but I mean, Ansible very clearly has, based on our surveys, the greatest market momentum. We're going to talk about that. I know some of the other analysts have chimed in on this, but let me come back to this notion of on-prem and cloud and edge and this is complicated. I mean, the edge, it's kind of its own island, isn't it? I mean, you got the IT and the OT schism, so maybe you could talk a little bit about how you see those worlds coming together, the cloud, the on-prem, the edge. Maybe Stefanie, you can start. >> Yeah, I think the magic, Dave, is going to happen when it's not its own island, right, as we start to see this world driven by data cause the spread of a data center to be really dis-aggregated and allow that compute to move out closer to the data, the magic happens when it doesn't feel like an island, right, that's the beauty and the promise of hybrid. So when you start to look at what can you provide that is consistent that serves as a single language that you can talk to from on-prem, off-prem and edge, you know, it all comes down to, for us, having a platform that you can build once and deploy across all of those, but the real delicacy with edge is there are some different deployment models. I think that comes into deployment space and we're clearly getting feedback from customers. We're working on some capabilities where edge requires some different deployment models in the ways you update, et cetera, and thanks to all of you out there who are working with us upstream in order to deliver that. And I think the second place where it's unique is in this ability to manage and automate out at the edge, but our goal is certainly at our platform levels, whether it be on RHEL, whether it be on OpenShift to provide that consistent platform that allows you that ease of deployment, then you got to manage and automate it and that's where the whole Ansible and the ecosystem really plays in. You need that ecosystem and that's always what I love about AnsibleFest is this community comes together and it's a vibrant community, for sure. >> Well, I mean, Ashesh, you guys are betting big on this and I often think of the cloud is just this one big cloud. You got the on-prem cloud, you got the public clouds. Edge becomes just an extension of that cloud. Is that how you think about it and what is it actually going to take to make that edge not an island? >> Yeah, great point, Dave, and that's exactly how we think about it. We've always thought about our vision of the cloud as being a platform and abstraction that spans all the underlying infrastructure that the user can take advantage of, so if it happens to reside in a data center, some in a private cloud running off a data center, more increasingly in the public cloud setting, and as Stefanie called out, we're also starting to see edge deployments come in. We're seeing, you know, big build-outs in the work we're doing with telecom providers from a 5G perspective that's helping drive that. We're seeing, if you will, IOT-like opportunities with, let's say, the automotive sector or some in the retail sector, as well. And so this fabric, if you will, needs to span this entire set of deployment that a customer will take advantage of. And Joe started touching on this a little bit, right, with this notion of the speed, scale and complexity, so we see this platform needing to expand to all these footprints that customers are using. At the same time, the requirements that they have, even when they're going out the edge, is the same with regard to what they see in the data center and the public cloud, so putting all that together really is our sweet spot. That's our focus. And to the point you're making, Dave, that's where we're making a huge bet across all of Red Hat. >> So I mentioned, you know, some of our research and I do these breaking analysis segments every week and recently I was digging into cloud and specifically was interested in hybrid and multi. And you know, hybrid been I think pretty well understood for awhile. Multi I think was a lot of, you know, a lot of talk, but it's becoming real and the data really shows that. It shows OpenShift and Ansible have momentum. I mentioned that before. Yeah, you know, obviously VMware is there, but clearly Red Hat is well positioned specifically in multicloud and hybrid. And I know some of the other analyst firms have picked up on this. What are you guys seeing in the market? Maybe Joe, you can chime in and Ashesh, you can maybe add some color. >> Yeah, so you know, there's a lot of fashion, right, around hybrid and multicloud today, so every vendor is jumping on with multicloud storing. And you know, a lot of the vendors' strategies are, pick my solution and vertically use my stuff in the public cloud on-premise, maybe even at the edge, right, and you'll be fine. And you know, obviously customers don't like lock-in. They like to be able to take advantage of the best services, availability, security, different things that are available in each of these different clouds, right? So there is a strong preference for hybrid and multicloud. Red Hat is sort of the Switzerland of hybrid and multicloud because we enable you to run your workloads across all these different substrates, whether it's in public clouds, multiple, right, into the data center and physical, virtual, bare metal, out to the edge and edge is not a single homogeneous, you know, set of hardware or even implementation. It varies a lot by vertical, so you have a lot of diversity, right? And so Red Hat is really good at helping provide the platforms like OpenShift and RHEL that are going to provide that consistency across those different environments or also in the case of Ansible to provide automation that's going to match the physics of management and automation that are required across each of those different environments. Trust me, managing or automating something at the edge and with very small footprint of some device across the constraint network is very, very different than managing things in a public cloud or in a data center and that's where I think Red Hat is really focused and that's our sweet spot, helping people manage those environments. >> And Ashesh, you guys have obviously put a lot of effort there. If you could maybe comment. >> Yeah, I was just going to say, Dave, I'll add just really quickly to what Joe said. He said it well. But the thing I will add is the way for us to succeed here is to follow the user, follow the customer. Right, instead of us just coming out with regard to what we believe the path to be, you know, we're really kind of working closely with the actual customers that we have. So for example, recently been working with a large water utility in Italy, but they're thinking about, you know, the world that they live in and how can they go off and, you know, have kiosks that are spread throughout Italy, able to provide reports with regard to the quality of the water that's available, as well as other services to all their citizens. But it's really interesting use case for us to go off and pursue because in some sense, you can ask yourself, well, is that public cloud? Are they going to take advantage of those services? Is that, you know, private cloud? Is that data center, is that IOT, is that edge? At a certain point in time, what you've got to think about is, well, we've got to provide integrated end-to-end solution that spans all of these different worlds, and so as long as I think we keep that focus, as long as we make sure our North Star is really what the user's trying to do, what problem they're trying to solve, I think we'll come out just fine on the other side of this. >> So I'd love to get all your thoughts, all three of you, on just what's going on in containers, generally, Kubernetes, specifically. I mean, everybody knows it's a hot space and the data shows that it is maturing, but it's amazing to me how much momentum it still has. I mean, it's like the new shiny toy, but it's everywhere and so it's able to sort of maintain that velocity and it's really becoming the go-to cloud native development platform, so the question is how is Red Hat, you know, helping your customers connect OpenShift to the rest of their IT infrastructure, platforms, their processes, the tools. I mean, who wants to start? I'd love to hear from all three of you. Ashesh, why don't you kick it off and then we'll just go left to right. >> So Dave, we've spoken to you and to folks the CUBE, as well, other for many years on this. We've made a huge investment in the Kubernetes market and been one of the earliest to do that and we continue to believe in the promise that it delivers to users, this notion of being able to have an environment that customers can use regardless of the underlying choices that they make. Here's an extremely powerful one, it's truly an open source, right? This is key to, you know, what we do. Increasingly, what we're working on is to ensure that one, if you make a commitment to Kubernetes and increasingly we see lots of customers around the world doing that, that we ensure that we're working closely, that our entire portfolio helps support that. So if you're going to make a choice with regard to Kubernetes base deployment, we help support you running it yourself wherever it is that you choose to run it, we help support you whether you choose to have us manage on your behalf and then also make sure we're providing an entire portfolio of services, both within Red Hat as well as from third parties so that you have the most productive, integrated experience possible. >> Okay, and Stefanie, loved your point of view on this, and Joe, I'd love to understand how you're bridging kind of the Ansible and Kubernetes communities, but Stefanie, why don't you chime in first? >> Yeah, I'll quickly add to what Ashesh said and talked about well on really the promise and the value of containers, but particularly from a RHEL perspective, we have taken all our capabilities and knowledge in the Linux space and we have taken that to apply it to OpenShift, right, because Kubernetes and containers is just another way to deploy Linux, so making sure that that underpinning is stable, secure and resilient and tied to an ecosystem, right? An ecosystem of various architectures, an ecosystem of ISVs and tooling, right? We've pulled that together and everything we've done in Linux for, you know, over decades now at Red Hat and we've put that into that customer experience around OpenShift to deploy containers, so we've really built, it has been a portfolio-wide effort, as Ashesh alluded to, and of course, it passes over to Ansible as well with Joe's portfolio. >> Yeah, we talked about this upfront, Joe. The communities are so crucial, so how are you bridging those Ansible and Kubernetes communities? What's your thought on that? >> Well, a quick note about those communities. So you know, OpenShift is built on Kubernetes and a number of other projects. Kubernetes is number seven in the top 10 open source projects based on the number of contributors. Turns out Ansible is number nine, right? So if you think about it, these are two incredibly robust communities, right? On the one hand, building the container platform in Kubernetes and in the other around Ansible and automation. It turns out that as the need for this digital acceleration and building these container-based applications comes along, there's a lot of other things that have to be done when you deploy container-based applications, whether it's infrastructure automation, right, to expand and manage and automate the infrastructure that you're running your container-based applications on, creating more clusters, you know, configuring storage, network, you know, counts, things like that, but also connecting to other systems in the environment that need to be integrated with around, you know, ITSM or systems of record, change management, inventory, cost, things like that, so what we've done is we've integrated Ansible, right, in a very powerful way with OpenShift through our advanced cluster management capability, which allows us to provide an easy way to instrument Ansible during critical points, whether it's you're deploying new clusters out there or you're deploying a new version of an application or a new application for the first time, whether you're checking policy, right, to ensure that, you know, the thing is secure and that, you know, you can govern these environments, right, that you're relying on. So we've really now tied together two sort of de facto standards, OpenShift built on Kubernetes and a number of other projects and then Ansible, or Red Hat, has taken this innovation in the community and created these certified content collections, platforms and capabilities that people can actually build and rely on and know that it's going to work. >> Ashesh, I mean, Red Hat has earned the right, really, to play in both the cloud native world and of course the traditional infrastructure world, but I'm interested in what you're seeing there, how you're bringing those two worlds together. Are they still, you know, largely separate? Are you seeing traditional IT? I mean, you're certainly seeing them lean in to more and more cloud native, but what are you guys doing specifically to kind of bring those worlds together? >> Yeah, increasingly it's really hard to be able to separate out those worlds, right? So in the past, we used to call it shadow IT. There really is no shadow IT anymore, right? This is IT. So we've embraced that completely. You know, our take on that is to say there are certain applications that are going to be appropriate for being run in a data center a certain way. There are certain other workloads that'll find their way appropriate for the public cloud. We want to make sure we're meeting them across, but what we want to do is constantly introduce technologies to help support the choices customers make. What do I mean by that? Let me give a couple examples. One is, you know, we can say customers have VMs that are based out in specific environments and they can only run as VMs. That code can't be containerized for a variety of reasons, right? You know, hard to re-architect that, don't have the funds, you know, have certain security compliance reasons. Well, what if we could take those VMs and then have them be run in containers in a native fashion? Wouldn't that be extremely powerful value proposition to run containers and then VMs as containers sort of side by side with Kubernetes orchestrating them all. So that's a capability we call open source virtualization. We've introduced that and made that generally available within our platform. Another one, which I think Joe starting to touch on a little bit here, is both around this notion of Ansible, as well as advanced cluster management. And say, once technologies like Ansible are familiar to our customers, how about if we find ways to introduce things like the operator framework to help support people's use of Ansible and introduce technologies like advanced cluster management, which allows for us to say, well, regardless of where you run your clusters, whether you run your Kubernetes clusters on premise, you run them in the cloud, right, we can imagine a consistent fashion and manage, you know, health and policy and compliance of applications across that entire state. So David, question's extremely good one, right, but what we are trying to do is try to be able to say, you know, we are going to just span those two worlds and provide as many tools as possible to ensure that customers feel like, you know, the shift, if you will, or the move between traditional enterprise software application development and the more modern cloud native can be bridged as seamlessly as possible. >> Yeah, Joe, we heard a lot of this at AnsibleFest, so the ACM as a key component of your innovation, and frankly, your competitive posture. Anything you would add to what Ashesh just shared? >> Well, I think that one of the things that Red Hat is really good at is we take management and automation as sort of an intrinsic part of what needs to go on. It's not an afterthought. You just don't go build something, go, "Oh I need management," go out and, you know, go get something, right, so we've been working on, sort of automation and management for many, many years, right, so we build it in concert with these platforms, right, and we understand the physics of these different environments, so we're very focused on that from inception, as opposed to an afterthought when people sort of paint themselves into a corner or have management challenges they can't deal with. >> There's a lot of analogs in our business, isn't there? Management is a bolt-on and security is a bolt-on. It just doesn't work that well and certainly doesn't scale. Stefanie, I want to come back to you and I want to come back to the edge. We hear a lot of people talking about extending their deployments to the edge in the future. I mean, you look at what IBM's doing. They're essentially betting its business on RHEL and OpenShift and betting that its customers are going to do the same as well are you. Maybe talk about, you know, what you're doing to specifically extend RHEL to the edge. >> Yeah, Dave, so we've been looking at this space consistent with our strategy, as Ashesh talked about, right? Our goal is to make sure that it all looks and feels the same and provides one single Linux experience. We've been building on a number of those aspects for quite some time, things like being able to deal with heterogeneous architectures, as an example, being able to deal with, you know, having Arm components and x86 components and power components and being able to leverage all of that from multiple vendors and being able to deploy. Those are things we've been focused on for a long time and now when you move into the space of the edge, certainly we're seeing, you know, essentially data center level hardware move out to be dis-aggregated and dispersed as they move it closer to the data and where that's coming in and where the analysis needs to be done, but some of those foundational things that we've been working on for years starts to pay off because the edge tends to be more heterogeneous all the way from an architecture level to an application level, so now we're seeing some asks. We've been working upstream in order to pull in some features that drive capabilities around specifically updating, deploying those updates, doing rollbacks and things like that, so we're focused on that. But really, it's about pulling together the capabilities of having multiple architectures, dealing with heterogeneous infrastructure out there at the edge, being able to reliably deploy it even when, for example, we have customers who they deploy their hardware and they can't touch it for years. How do they make sure that that's out there in a stable environment that they can count on? And then, you know, adding in things like containerization. We talked about the magic of that, being able to deploy an application consistently and being able to deploy a single container out there to the edge. We're thinking about it all the way from the architecture up to how the application gets deployed and it's going to take the whole portfolio to do that as you need to manage it, as you need to deploy containers, so it's a focus across the company for how we deal with that. >> And as we were talking about before, you know, it takes a village. You know that bromide, but it does, requires an ecosystem of jobs. I mean, there's some real technical challenges in R&D that has to happen. I mean, you've got to be, you know, you're talking about cloud native in all three different clouds, and you know, and not just the big three, but other clouds and then bringing that to the edge, so there's some clear technical challenges, but there's also some business challenges out there. So you know, what are you seeing in that regard? You know, what are some of those things that you hope to solve by bridging that gap? >> Well, I think one of the things we're trying to do and I'm focused on the management and automation side is to provide a common set of management tooling of automation, right, and I think Ansible fits that quite well. So for the past five years since Ansible's been part of Red Hat, we've expanded from, you know, they started off initially doing configuration management, right? We've expanded to include, you know, network and storage and security, now edge. At AnsibleFest, we demonstrated things like serverless event-driven automation, right, building an OpenShift serverless in Knative. We're trying to expand the use cases for Ansible so that there's a simplicity, there's a tool reduction, right, across all these environments and you don't have to go deal with nine vendors, and you know, 17 different tools to try to manage each element here to be able to provide a common set. It reduces complexity, cost and allows skills to be able to be reused across these different areas. It's going to all be about digital acceleration, right, and reducing that complexity. And one last comment. One of the reasons we bought Ansible years ago is the architecture, it's agent-less. Many of our competitors that you hear, the first thing they want to do is go deploy an agent somewhere and that creates its own ongoing burden of, do I have the latest version of the agent? Is it secure? Does it fit on the device? As Stefanie mentioned, is there a version that fits on the architecture the device is running on? It starts getting really, really complicated. So Ansible is just simple, elegant, agent-less. We've expanded the domains we can automate with it and we've expanded sort of the modality. How can I call it? User, driven by an event, as part of some life cycle management, app deployment, Ansible plugs right in. >> Well, Joe, you can tell you're a management guy, right? Agents, another thing that has to be managed. You just laundry list of stuff. (laughs) I want to come back to this notion Joe just touched on, this digital transformation. They say, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Well, COVID broke everything. And I got to say, I mean, all the talk about digital transformation over the last, you know, several years, yes, it was certainly happening, but there was also a lot of lip service going on and now if you're not digital, you're out of business. And so, you know, given everything that we've seen in the last, you know, whatever, 150, 200 days or so, what's the impact that you're seeing on customers' digital transformation initiatives, and you know, what is Red Hat doing to respond? Maybe Ashesh, you could start and we can get feedback from the others. >> Yeah, David, it's an unfortunate thing to say, right, but there's that meme going around with regard to who's responsible for digital transformation and it's a little bit of I guess gallows humor to call it COVID, but we're increasingly seeing that customers and the journey that they're on is one that they haven't really gotten off, even with this, if you will, change of environment that's come about. So projects that we've seen in play, you know, are still underway. We've seen acceleration, actually, in some places with regard to making services more easily accessible. Anyone who's invested in hybrid cloud or public cloud is seeing huge value with regard to being able to consume services remotely, being able to do this on demand and that's a big part of the value proposition, you know, that comes forward. And increasingly what we're trying to do is try to say, how can we engage and assist you in these times, right? So our services team, for example, has transformed to be able to help customers remotely. Our support team has gone off and work more and more with customers. For a company like Red Hat, that hasn't been completely, if you will, difficult thing to do mostly because we've been so used to working in a distributed fashion, working remotely with our customers, so that's not a challenge in itself, but making sure customers understand that this is really a critical journey for them to go on and how we can kind of help them, you know, walk through that has been good and we're finding that that message really resonates. Right, so both Stefanie and Joe talked a little bit about, you know, how essentially our entire portfolio is now built around, you know, ensuring that if you'd like to consume on demand, we can help support you, if you'd like to consume in a traditional fashion, we can help you. That amount of flexibility that we provide to customers is really coming to bear at this point in time. >> So maybe we could wrap with, we haven't really dropped any customer names. Stefanie and Joe and Ashesh, I wonder if you have any stories you can share or, you know, customer examples that we could close on that are exciting to you this year. >> So I can start, if that's okay. >> Please. >> So an area that I find super interesting from a customer perspective that we're increasingly seeing more and more customers go down is sheer interest in, if you will, kind of diversity of use cases that we're seeing, right? So we see this, for example, in automotive, right? So whether it's a BMW or a Volkswagen, we see this now in health care with the ACA, in we'll say a little bit more traditional industries like energy with Exxon or Schlumberger around increasingly embrace of AIML, right? So artificial machine learning, if you will, advanced analytics being much more proactive with regard to how they can take data that's coming in, adjust it, be able to make sense of the patterns and then be able to, you know, have some action that has real business impact. So this whole trend towards, you know, AIML workloads that they can run is extremely powerful. We work very closely with Nvidia, as well, and we're seeing a lot of interest, for example, in being able to run a Kubernetes-based platform, support Nvidia GPUs for specific class workloads. There's a whole bunch of customers, people in financial services that, you know, this is a rich area of interest. You know, we've seen great use cases for example around grid with Deutsche Bank. And so, to me, I'm personally really excited to see kind of that embrace the PC from our customers regard to saying there's a whole lot of data that's out there. You know, how can we essentially use all of these tools that we have in place? You know, we talk about containers, microservices, DevOps, you know, all of this and then put it to bear to really put to work and get business value. >> Great, thank you for that, Ashesh. Stefanie, Joe, Stefanie, anything you want to add or final thoughts? >> Yeah, just one thing to add and I think Ashesh talked to a whole number across industry verticals and customers. But I think the one thing that I've seen through COVID is that if nothing else, it's taught us that change is the only constant and I think, you know, our whole vision of open hybrid cloud is how to enable customers to be flexible and do what they need to do when they need to do it, wherever they want to deploy, however they want to build. We provide them some consistency, right, across that as they make those changes and I think as I've worked with customers here through since the beginning of COVID, it's been amazing to me the diversity of how they've had to respond. Some have doubled down in the data center, some have doubled down on going public cloud and to me, this is the proof of the strategy that we're on, right, that open hybrid cloud is about delivering flexibility, and boy, nothing's taught us the need for flexibility like COVID has recently, so I think there's a lot more to do. I think pulling together the platforms and the automation is what is going to enable the ability to do that in a simple fashion. >> So Joe, you get the final word. I mean, AnsibleFest 2020, I mean, it's weird, right? But that's the way these events are, all virtual. Hopefully, next year we got a shot at being face to face, but bring us home, please. >> Yeah, I got to tell ya, having, you know, 20,000 or so of your closest friends get together to talk about automation for a couple of days is just amazing. That just shows you sort of the power of it. You know, we have a lot of customers this week at AnsibleFest telling you their story, you know, CarMax and ExxonMobil, you know, BlueCross BlueShield. I mean, there's a number across all different verticals, globally, Cepsa from Europe. I mean, just an incredibly, you know, diverse array of customers and use cases. I would encourage people to look at some of the customer presentations that were on at AnsibleFest, listen to the customer telling you what they're doing with Ansible, deploying their networks, deploying their apps, managing their infrastructure, container apps, traditional apps, connecting it, moving faster. They have amazing stories. I encourage people to go look. >> Well, guys, thanks so much for helping us wrap up AnsibleFest 2020. It was really a great discussion. You guys have always been awesome CUBE guests. Really appreciate the partnership and so thank you. >> Thanks a lot, Dave. Appreciate it. >> Yeah, thanks, Dave. >> Thanks for having us. >> All right, and thank you for watching, everybody. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE and we'll see you next time. (calm music)

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of Red Hat. Summit 2020 Brought to you by Red Hat. >>Yeah. Hi. And welcome back to the Cube's coverage of Red Hat Summit 2020 on stew. Minimum in this year's event, of course, happened globally. Which means we're talking to Red Hat executives, customers and partners where they are around the globe on and happy to welcome back to the program. One of our cube alumni, Badani, who is the senior vice president. Cloud platforms at Red Hat is great to see you. >>Yeah, thanks a lot for having me back on. >>Yeah, absolutely. So you know, the usual wall to wall coverage that we do in San Francisco? Well, it's now the global digital, a little bit of a dispersed architecture to do these environments. Which reminds me a little bit of your world. So, you know, the main keynote stage. You know, Paul's up There is the, you know, new CEO talking about open hybrid cloud. And of course, the big piece of that is, you know, open shift and the various products, you know, in the portfolio there, So ah, personal. We know there's not, you know, big announcements of, you know, launches and the like, But your team and the product portfolio has been going through a lot of changes. A lot of growth since last time we connected. So bring us up to speed as to what we should know about. >>Sure. Thanks s Oh, yes, not not a huge focus around announcements, this summit, especially given everything going on in the world around us today. Ah, but you know, that being said, we continue our open shift journey. We started that well, you know, many years ago. But in 2015 and we had our first release both the stone kubernetes in a container focused platform. Ever since then, you know, we continue to groan to evolve Atlassian count now over 2000 customers globally. I trusted the platform in industries that literally every industry and also obviously every job around around the globe. So that's been great to see you. And last summit, we actually announced a fairly significant enhancement of a platform with a large fortune before big focus around created manageability ability to use operators which is, you know, kubernetes concept to make applications much more manageable. um, you know, when they're being run natively within within the platform, we continue to invest. There s so there's a new release off the platform. Open shift 4.4 based on kubernetes 1.17 big made available to our customers globally. And then really, sort of this this notion of over the air updates right to create a platform that is almost autonomous in nature, you know, acts more like your your your mobile phone in the way you can manage and and update and upgrade. I think that's a key value proposition that, you know, we're providing to our customers. So we're excited to see that and then be able to share that with you. >>Yeah, so a chef won't want to dig into that a little bit. So one of the discussions we've had in the industry for many years is how much consistency there needs to be across my various environments. We know you know Kubernetes is great, but it is not a silver bullet. You know, customers will have clusters. They will have different environments. I have what I do in my data centers or close. I'm using things in the public clouds and might be using different communities offering. So you know, as you said, there's things that Red Hat is doing. But give us a little insight into your customers as to how should they be thinking about it? How do they manage it? One of the new pieces that we're building it into a little bit, of course, from a management sand point is ACM, which I know open shift today, but going toe support some of the other kubernetes options you know down the road. So how should customers be thinking about this? How does Red Hat think about managing? Did this ever complex world >>Yes, So Student should have been talking about this for several years now, right with regard to just the kind of the customers are doing. And let's start with customers for us, because it's all about you know, the value for them so that this year's summit we're announcing some innovation award winners, right? So a couple of interesting ones BMW and Ford, um, you know BMW, you know, building It's next generation autonomous driving platform using containers. And then, you know, police Massive data platform an open ship for doing a lot of interesting work with regard to, uh, bringing together. It's a development team taking advantage of existing investments in hardware and so on, You know, the in place, you know, with the platform. But also, increasingly, companies that are you know, for example, in all accept. All right, so we've got the Argentine Ministry of Health. We've got a large electricity distribution company adopting containers, adopting middleware technology, for example, on open shift until great value. Right. So network alerts when there's electricity outrage going from three minutes to 10 seconds. And so, as you now see more and more customers doing, you know, more and more if you will mission critical activities on these platforms to your points to your question is a really good one is not got clusters running in multiple markets, right? Perhaps in their own data center, across multiple clouds and managing these clusters at scale, it becomes, you know, more, more critical up. And so, you know, we've been doing a bunch of work with regard to the team, and I actually joined us from IBM has been working on this. Let's remember technology for a while, and it's part of Red Hat. We're now releasing in technology preview. Advanced cluster management trying to solve address questions around. What does it mean to manage the lifecycle of the application process? Clusters. How do I monitor and imbue cluster help? You know, regardless of you know, where they run. How do I have consistent security and compliance for my policies across the different clusters. So really excited, right? It is a really interesting technology. It's probably most advanced placement. That's our market. What? IBM working on it. We know. Well, before you know, the team from from there, you know, joined us. And now we're making it much more >>widely available. Yeah, actually, I just want one of things that really impressed some of those customers. First off. Congratulations. 2000 you know, great milestone there. And yeah, we've had We're gonna have some of the opportunity to talk on the cube. Some of those essential services you talk Ministry of Health. Obviously, with a global pandemic on critically environment, energy companies need to keep up and running. I've got Vodafone idea also from India, talking about how communication service is so essential. Pieces and definitely open shift. You know, big piece of this story asst to how they're working and managing and scaling. Um, you know, everybody talks about scale for years, but the current situation around the globe scale something that you know. It's definitely being stressed and strained and understood. What? What? What's really important? Um, another piece. Really interesting. Like to dig in a little bit here. Talk about open shift is you know, we talk kubernetes and we're talking container. But there's still a lot of virtualization out there. And then from an application development standpoint, there's You know what? Let's throw everything away and go all serverless on there. So I understand. Open shift. Io is embracing the full world and all of the options out there. So help us walk through how Red Hat maybe is doing things a little bit differently. And of course, we know anything right Does is based on open source. So let's talk about those pieces >>Yes, to super interesting areas for us. Um, one is the work we're doing based on open source project called Kube Vert, and that's part of the CN CF incubating projects. And that that is the notion off bringing virtualization into containers. And what does that mean? Obviously There are huge numbers of workloads running in which machines globally and more more customers want, you know, one control plane, one environment, one abstraction to manage workloads, whether they're running in containers or in IBM, I believe you sort of say, Can we take workloads that are running in these, uh, give, um, based which machines or, uh, VMS running in a VM based environment and then bring them natively on, run them as containers and managed by kubernetes orchestrate across this distributed cluster that we've talked about? I've been extremely powerful, and it's a very modern approach to modernizing existing applications as well as thinking about building new services. And so that's a technology that we're introducing into the platform and trying to see some early customer interest. Um, around. So, >>you know, I've got ah, no, I'm gonna have a breakout with Joe Fernandez toe talk about this a little bit, but you know what a note is you're working on. That is, you're bringing a VM into the container world and what red hat does Well, because you know your background and what red hat does is, you know, from an operating system you're really close to the application. So one of my concerns, you know, from early days of virtualization was well, let's shut things in a VM and leave it there and not make any changes as opposed to What you're describing is let's help modernize things. You know, I saw one of the announcements talking about How do I take job of workloads and bring them into the cloud? There's a project called Marcus. So once again, do I hear you right? You're bringing V M's into the container world with help to move towards that journey, to modernize everything so that we were doing a modern platform, not just saying, Hey, I can manage it with the tool that I was doing before. But that application, that's the important piece of it. >>Yeah, and it's a really good point, you know, We've you know, so much to govern, probably too little time to do it right, because the one that you touched on is really interesting. Project called caucuses right again. As you rightly pointed out, everything that is open source up, and so that's a way for us to say, Look, if we were to think about Java and be able to run that in a cloud native way, right? And be able to run, um, that natively within a container and be orchestrated again by kubernetes. What would that look like? Right, How much could be reduced density? How much could be improved performance around those existing job applications taking advantage off all the investments that companies have made but make that available in kubernetes and cloud native world. Right? And so that's what the corpus project is about. I'm seeing a lot of interest, you know, and again, because the open source model right, You don't really have companies that are adopting this, right? So there's I think there's a telecom company based out of Europe that's talking about the work that they're already doing with this. And I already blogged about it, talking about, you know, the value from a performance and use of usability perspective that they're getting with that. And then you got So you couple this idea off. How do I take BMC? Bring them into contempt? Right? Right. Existing workloads. Move that in. Run that native check. Right? Uh, the next one. How do I take existing java workloads and bring them into this modern cloud native Kubernetes space world, you know, making progress with that orchestra check. And then the third area is this notion off several lists, right? Which is, you know, I've got new applications, new services. I want to make sure that they're taking advantage, appropriate resources, but only the exact number of resources that require We do that in a way that's native to kubernetes. Right? So we're been working on implementing a K native based technologies as the foundation as the building blocks, um, off the work we're doing around serving and eventing towards leading. Ah, more confortable several institution, regardless of where you run it across any off your platform prints up. And that will also bring the ability to have functions that made available by really any provider in that same platform. So So if you haven't already to put all the pieces together right that we were thinking about this is the center of gravity is a community space platform that we make fully automated, that we make it very operational, make it easy for different. You know, third party pieces to plug in, writes to sort of make sure that it's in trouble in modular and at the same time that start layering on additional Kim. >>Yeah, I'm a lot of topics. As you said, it's Siachin. I'm glad on the serverless piece we're teasing out because it is complicated. You know, there are some that were just like, Well, from my application developer standpoint, I don't >>need to >>think about all that kubernetes and containers pieces because that's why I love it. Serverless. I just developed to it, and the platform takes care of it. And we would look at this year to go and say, Well, underneath that What is it? Is it containers? And the enter was Well, it could be containers. It depends what the platform is doing. So, you know, from from Red Hat's standpoint, you're saying open shift server lists, you know? Yes, it's kubernetes underneath there. But then I heard you talk about, you know, live aware of it is so, um, I saw there's, you know, a partner of Red Hat. It's in the open source community trigger mesh, which was entering one of the questions I had. You know, when I talk to people about serverless most of the time, it's AWS based stuff, not just lambda lots of other services. You know, I didn't interview with Andy Jassy a few years ago, and he said if I was to rebuild AWS today, everything would be built on serverless. So might some of those have containers and kubernetes under it? Maybe, but Amazon might do their own thing, so they're doing really a connection between that. So how does that plug in with what you're doing? Open shift out. All these various open sourced pieces go together. >>Yes, I would expect for us to have partnerships with several startups, right? You know you name, you know, one in our ecosystem. You know, you can imagine as your functions, you know, running on our serverless platform as well as functions provided by any third party, including those that are built and by red hat itself, Uh, you know, for the portal within this platform. Because ultimately, you know, we're building the platform to be operational, to be managed at scale to create greater productively for developments. Right? So for example, one of things we've been working on we are in the area of developer tools. Give the customers ability. Do you have you know, the product that we have is called cordon Ready workspaces. But essentially this notion off, you know, how can we take containers and give work spaces that are easy for remote developers to work with? Great example. Off customer, actually, in India that's been able to rapidly cut down time to go from Dev Productions weeks, you know, introduced because they're using, you know, things like these remote workspaces running in containers. You know, this is based on the eclipse. Ah, Apache, the the CI Project, You know, for this. So this this notion that you know, we're building a platform that can be used by ops teams? Absolutely true, but the same time the idea is, how can we now start thinking about making sure these abstractions are providing are extremely productive for development teams. >>Yeah, it's such an important piece. Last year I got the chance to go to Answerable Fest for the first time, and it was that kind of discussion that was really important, you know, can tools actually help me? Bridge between was traditionally some of those silos that they talked about, You know, the product developer that the Infrastructure and Ops team and the AB Dev teams all get things in their terminology and where they need but common platforms that cut between them. So sounds like similar methodology. We're seeing other piece of the platforms Any other, you know, guidance. You talked about all your customers there. How are they working through? You know, all of these modernizations adopting so many new technologies. Boy, you talked about like Dev ops tooling it still makes my heads. Then when I look at it, some of these charts is all the various tools and pieces that organizations are supposed to help choose and pick. Ah, out of there, they have. So how how is your team helping customers on kind of the organizational side? >>Yes. So we'll do this glass picture. So one is How do you make sure that the platform is working to help these teams? You know, by that? What I mean is, you know, we are introducing this idea and working very closely with our partners globally and on this notion of operators, right, which is every time I want to run data bases. And you know, there's so many different databases. There are, you know, up there, right? No sequel, no sequel. and in a variety of different ones for different use cases. How can you make sure that we make it easy for customers trial and then be able to to deploy them and manage them? Right? So this notion of an operator lifecycle because application much more manageable when they run with data s O. So you make you make it easier for folks to be able to use them. And then the question is, Well, what other? If you will advise to help me get that right So off late, you probably heard, you know, be hired a bunch of industry experts and brought them into red hat around this notion of a global transformation and be able to bring that expertise to know whether you know, it's the So you know, Our Deep in Dev Ops and the Dev Ops Handbook are you know, some of the things that industry is a lot like the Phoenix project and, you know, just just in various different you know what's your business and be able to start saying looking at these are told, music and share ideas with you on a couple that with things like open innovation labs that come from red hat as well as you know, similar kinds of offerings from our various partners around the world to help, you know, ease their transition into the >>All right. So final question I have for you, let's go a little bit high level. You know, as you've mentioned you and I have been having this conversation for a number of years last year or so, I've been hearing some of the really big players out there, ones that are, of course, partners of Red Hat. But they say similar things. So you know, whether it's, you know, Microsoft Azure releasing arc. If it's, you know, VM ware, which much of your open ship customers sit on top of it. But now they have, you know, the Project Pacific piece and and do so many of them talk about this, you know, heterogeneous, multi cloud environment. So how should customers be thinking about red hat? Of course. You partner with everyone, but you know, you do tend to do things a little bit different than everybody else. >>Uh, yeah. I hope we do things differently than everyone else. You know, to deliver value to customers, right? So, for example, all the things that we talk about open ship or really is about industry leading. And I think there's a bit of a transformation that's going on a swell right within the way. How Red Hat approaches things. So Sam customers have known Red Hat in the past in many ways for saying, Look, they're giving me an operating system that's, you know, democratizing, if you will. You know what the provider provides, Why I've been given me for all these years. They provided me an application server, right that, you know, uh, it's giving me a better value than what proprietary price. Increasingly, what we're doing with, you know, the work they're doing around, Let's say whether it's open shift or, you know, the next generation which ization that we talked about so on is about how can we help customers fundamentally transform how it is that they were building deploy applications, both in a new cloud native way. That's one of the existing once and what I really want to 0.2 is now. We've got it least a five year history on the open shift platform to look back at you will point out and say here are customers that are running directly on bare metal shears. Why they find, you know, this virtualization solution that you know that we're providing so interesting Here we have customers running in multiple different environments running on open stack running in these multiple private clouds are sorry public clouds on why they want distribute cluster management across all of them. You know, here's the examples that you know we could provide right? You know, here's the work we've done with, you know, whether it's these, you know, government agencies with private enterprises that we've talked to write, you know, receiving innovation awards for the world been doing together. And so I think our approach really has been more about, you know, we want to work on innovation that is fundamentally impacting customers, transforming them, meeting them where they are moving the four into the world we're going into. But they're also ensuring that we're taking advantage of all the existing investments that they've made in their skills. Right? So the advantage of, for example, the years off limits expertise that they have and saying How can we use that? Don't move you forward. >>Well, a chef's Thank you so much Absolutely. I know the customers I've talked to at Red Hat talking about not only how they're ready for today, but feel confident that they're ready to tackle the challenges of tomorrow. So thanks so much. Congratulations on all the progress and definitely look forward to seeing you again in the future. >>Likewise. Thanks, Ian Stewart. >>All right, I'm still Minuteman. And much more coverage from Red Hat Summit 2020 as always. Thanks for watching the Cube. >>Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

>> Announcer: From around the globe, it's theCUBE, with digital coverage of Red Hat Summit 2020, brought to you by Red Hat. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman, and this is theCUBE's coverage of Red Hat Summit, happening digitally, interviewing practitioners, executives, and thought leaders from around the world. Happy to welcome back to our program, one of our CUBE alumni, Ashesh Badani, who's the Senior Vice President of Cloud Platforms with Red Hat. Ashesh, thank you so much for joining us, and great to see you. >> Yeah, likewise, thanks for having me on, Stu. Good to see you again. >> All right, so, Ashesh, since the last time we had you on theCUBE a few things have changed. One of them is that IBM has now finished the acquisition of Red Hat, and I've heard from you from a really long time, you know, OpenShift, it's anywhere and it's everywhere, but with the acquisition of Red Hat, it just means this only runs on IBM mainframes and IBM Cloud, and all things blue, correct? >> Well, that's true for sure, right? So, Stu, you and I have been talking for many, many times. As you know, we've been committed to hybrid multi-cloud from the very get-go, right? So, OpenShift supported to run on bare metal, on virtualization platforms, whether they come from us, or VMware, or Microsoft Hyper-V, on private clouds like OpenStack, as well as AWS, Google Cloud, as well as on Azure. Now, with the completion of the IBM acquisition of Red Hat, we obviously always partnered with IBM before, but given, if you will, a little bit of a closer relationship here, you know, IBM's been very keen to make sure that they promote OpenShift in all their platforms. So as you can probably see, OpenShift on IBM Cloud, as well as OpenShift on Z on mainframe, so regardless of how you like OpenShift, wherever you like OpenShift, you will get it. >> Yeah, so great clarification. It's not only on IBM, but of course, all of the IBM environments are supported, as you said, as well as AWS, Google, Azure, and the like. Yeah, I remember years ago, before IBM created their single, condensed conference of THINK, I attended the conference that would do Z, and Power, and Storage, and people would be like, you know, "What are they doing with that mainframe?" I'm like, "Well, you do know that it can run Linux." "Wait, it can run Linux?" I'm like, "Oh my god, Z's been able to run Linux "for a really long time." So you want your latest Container, Docker, OpenShift stuff on there? Yeah, that can sit on a mainframe. I've talked to some very large, global companies that that is absolutely a part of their overall story. So, OpenShift-- >> Interesting you say that, because we already have customers who've been procuring OpenShift on mainframe, so if you made the invest mainframe, it's running machine learning applications for you, looking to modernize some of the applications and services that run on top in OpenShift on mainframe now is an available option, which customers are already taking advantage of. So exactly right to your point, we're seeing that in the market today. >> Yeah, and Ashesh, maybe it's good to kind of, you know, you've got a great viewpoint as to customers deploying across all sorts of environments, so you mentioned VMware environments, the public cloud environment. It was our premise a few years ago on theCUBE that Kubernetes get staked into all the platforms, and absolutely, it's going to just be a layer underneath. I actually think we won't be talking a lot about Kubernetes if you fast-forward a couple of years, just because it's in there. I'm using it in all of my environments. So what are you seeing from your customers? Where are we in that general adoption, and any specifics you can give us about, you know, kind of the breadth and the depth of what you're seeing from your customer base? >> Yeah, so, you're exactly right. We're seeing that adoption continue on the path it's been on. So we've got now, over 1700 customers for OpenShift, running in all of these environments that you mentioned, so public, private, a combination of the two, running on traditional virtualization environments, as well as ensuring that they run in public cloud at scale. In some cases managed by customers, in other cases managed by us on their behalf in a public cloud. So, we're seeing all permutation, if you will, of that in play today. We're also seeing a huge variety of workloads, and to me, that's actually really interesting and fascinating. So, earliest days, as you'd expect, people trying to play with micro-services, so trying to build new market services and run it, so cloud native, what have you. Then as we're ensuring that we're supporting stateful application, right. Now you're starting to see if your legacy applications move on, ensuring that we can run them, support them at scale, within the platform 'cause we're looking to modernize applications. We'll talk maybe in a few minutes also about lift-and-shift that we got to play as well. But now also we're starting to see new workloads come on. So just most recently we announced some of the work that we're doing with a series of partners, from NVIDIA to emerging AI ML, AI, artificial intelligence machine learning, frameworks or ISVs, looking to bring those to market. Been ensuring that those are supported and can run with OpenShift. Right, our partnership with NVIDIA, ensuring OpenShift be supported on GPU based environment for specific workloads, whether it be performance sensitive or specific workloads that take advantage of underlying hardware. So starting now to see a wide variety if you will, of application types is also something that we're starting, right, so numbers of customers increasing, types of workloads, you know, coming on increasing, and then the diversity of underlying deployment environments. Where they're running all services. >> Ashesh, such an important piece and I'm so glad you talked about it there. 'Cause you know my background's infrastructure and we tend to look at things as to "Oh well, I moved from VM to a container, "to cloud or all these other things," but the only reason infrastructure exists is to run my application, is my data and my application that are the most important things out there. So Ashesh, let me get in some of the news that you got here, your team work on a lot of things, I believe one of them talks about some of those, those new ways that customers are building applications and how OpenShift fits into those environments. >> Yeah, absolutely. So look, we've been on this journey as you know for several years now. You know recently we announced the GA of OpenShift Service Mesh in support of Istio, increasing an interest as for turning microservices will take advantage of close capabilities that are coming in. At this event we're now also announcing the GA of OpenShift Serverless. We're starting to see obviously a lot of interest, right, we've seen the likes of AWS spawn that in the first instance, but more and more customers are interested in making sure that they can get a portable way to run serverless in any Kubernetes environment, to take advantage of open source projects as building blocks, if you will, so primitives in, within Kubernetes to allow for serverless capabilities, allow for scale down to zero, supporting serving and eventing by having portable functions run across those environments. So that's something that is important to us and we're starting to see support of in the marketplace. >> Yeah, so I'd love just, obviously I'm sure you've got lots of break outs in the OpenShift Serverless, but I've been talking to your team for a number of years, and people, it's like "Oh, well, just as cloud killed everything before it, "serverless obviates the need for everything else "that we were going to use before." Underlying OpenShift Serverless, my understanding, Knative either is the solution, or a piece of the solution. Help us understand what serverless environment this ties into, what this means for both your infrastructure team as well as your app dev team. >> Yeah, great, great question, so Knative is the basis of our serverless solution that we're introducing on OpenShift to the marketplace. The best way for me to talk about this is there's no one size fits all, so you're going to have specific applications or service that will take advantage of serverless capabilities, there will be some others that will take advantage of running within OpenShift, there'll be yet others, we talked about the AI ML frameworks, that will run with different characteristics, also within the platform. So now the platform is being built to help support a diversity, a multitude of different ways of interacting with it, so I think maybe Stu, you're starting to allude to this a little bit, right, so now we're starting to focus on, we've got a great set of building blocks, on the right compute network storage, a set of primitives that Kubernetes laid out, thinking of the notions of clustering and being able to scale, and we'll talk a little bit about management as well of those clusters. And then it changes to a, "What are the capabilities now, "that I need to build to make sure "that I'm most effective, most efficient, "regard to these workloads that I bring on?" You're probably hearing me say workloads now, several times, because we're increasingly focused on adoption, adoption, adoption, how can we ensure that when these 1700 plus, hopefully, hundreds if not thousands more customers come on, how they can get the most variety of applications onto this platform, so it can be a true abstraction over all the underlying physical resources that they have, across every deployment that they put out. >> All right, well Ashesh, I wish we could spend another hour talking about the serverless piece, I definitely am going to make sure I check out some of the breakouts that cover the piece that we talked to you, but, I know there's a lot more that the OpenShift update adds, so what other announcements, news, do you have to cover for us? >> Yeah, so a couple other things I want to make sure I highlight here, one is a capability called ACM, advanced cluster management, that we're introducing. So it was an experimental work that was happening with the IBM team, working on cluster management capabilities, we'd been doing some of that work ourselves, within Red Hat, as part of IBM and Red Hat coming together. We've had several folks from IBM actually join Red Hat, and so we're now open sourcing and providing this cluster management capability, so this is the notion of being able to run and manage these different clusters from OpenShift, at scale, across multiple environments, be able to check on cluster health, be able to apply policy consistently, provide governance, ensure that appropriate applications are running in appropriate clusters, and so on, a series of capabilities, to really allow for multiple clusters to be run at scale and managed effectively, so that's one set of, go ahead, Stu. >> Yeah, if I could, when I hear about multicluster management, I think of some of the solutions that I've heard talked about in the industry, so Azure Arc from Microsoft, Tanzu from VMware, when they talk about multicluster management, it is not only the Kubernetes solutions that they're offering, but also, how do I at least monitor, if not even allow a little bit of control across these environments? So when you talk about cluster management, is that all the OpenShift pieces, or things like AKS, EKS, other options out there, how do those fit into the overall management story? >> Yeah, that's absolutely our goal, right, so we've got to get started somewhere, right? So we obviously want to make sure that we bring into effect the solution to manage OpenShift clusters at scale, and then of course as we would expect, multiple other clusters exist, from Kubernetes, like the ones you mentioned, from the cloud providers as well as others from third parties and we want the solution to manage that as well. But obviously we're going to sort of take steps to get to the endpoint of this journey, so yes, we will get there, we've got to get started somewhere. >> Yeah, and Ashesh, any guides, when you look at people, some of the solutions I mentioned out there, when they start out it's "Here's the vision." So what guidance would you give to customers about where we are, how fast they can expect these things to mature, and I know anything that Red Hat does is going to be fully open source and everything, what's your guidance out there as to what customers should be looking for? >> Yeah, so we're at an interesting point, I think, in this Kubernetes journey right now, and so when we, if you will, started off, and Stu you and I have been talking about this for at least five years if not longer, was this notion that we want to provide a platform that can be portable and successfully run in multiple deployment environments. And we've done that over these years. But all the while when we were doing that, we're always thinking about, what are the capabilities that are needed that are perhaps not developed upstream, but will be over time, but we can ensure that we can look ahead and bring that into the platform. And for a really long time, and I think we still do, right, we at Red Hat take a lot of stick for saying "Hey look, you form the platform." Our outcome back to that has always been, "Look, we're trying to help solve problems "that we believe enterprise customers have, "we want to ensure that they're available open source, "and we want to upstream those capabilities always, "back into the community." But, let's say making available a platform without RBAC, role-based access control, well it's going to be hard then for enterprises to adopt that, we've got to make sure we introduce that capability, and then make sure that it's supported upstream as well. And there's a series of capabilities and features like that that we work through. We've always provided an abstraction within OpenShift to make it more productive for developers and administrators to use it. And we always also support working with kubectl or the command line interface from kube as well. And then we always hear back from folks saying "Well, you've got your own abstraction, "that might make that seem impossible," Nope, you can use both kubectl GPUs or C commands, whichever one is better for you, have at it, we're just trying to be more productive. And now increasingly what we're seeing in the marketplace is this notion that we've got to make sure we work our way up from not just laying out a Kubernetes distribution, but thinking about the additional capability, additional services that you can provide, that would be more valuable to customers, and I think Stu, you were making the point earlier, increasingly, the more popular and the more successful Kubernetes becomes, the less you will see and hear of it, which by the way is exactly the way it should be, because that becomes then the basis of your underlying infrastructure, you are confident that you've got a rock solid bottom, and now you as a customer, you as a user, are focusing all of your energy and time on building the productive application and services on top. >> Yeah, great great points there Ashesh, the vision people always talked about is "If I'm leveraging cloud services, "I shouldn't have to worry "about what version they're running." Well, when it comes to Kubernetes, ultimately we should be able to get there, but I know there's always a little bit of a delta between the latest and newest version of Kubernetes that comes out, and what the managed services, and not only managed services, what customers are doing in their own environment. Even my understanding, even Google, which is where Kubernetes came out of, if you're looking at GKE, GKE is not on the latest, what are we on, 1.19, from the community, Ashesh, so what's Red Hat's position on this, what version are you up to, how do you think customers should think about managing across those environments, because boy, I've got too many scars from interoperability history, go back 10 or 15 years and everything, "Oh, my server BIOS doesn't work on that latest "kernel.org version of what we're doing for Linux." Red Hat is probably better prepared than any company in the industry, to deal with that massive change happening from a code-based standpoint, I've heard you give presentations on the history of Linux and Kubernetes, and what's going forward, so when it comes to the release of Kubernetes, where are you with OpenShift, and how should people be thinking about upgrading from versions? >> Yeah, another excellent point, Stu, it's clearly been following us pretty closely over the years, so where we came at this, was we actually learned quite a bit from our experience in the company with OpenStack. And so what would happen with OpenStack is, you would have customers that are on a certain version of Openstack, and then they kept saying "Hey look, we want to consume close to trunk, "we want new features, we want to go faster." And we'd obviously spent some time, from the release in community to actually shipping our distribution into customer's hand, there's going to be some amount of time for testing and QE to happen, and some integration points that need to be certified, before we make it available. We often found that customers lagged, so there'd be let's say a small subset if you will within every customer or several customers who want to be consuming close to trunk, a majority actually want stability. Especially as time wore on, they were more interested in stability. And you can understand that, because now if you've got mission critical applications running on it you don't necessarily want to go and put that at risk. So the challenge that we addressed when we actually started shipping OpenShift four last summer, so about a year ago, was to say, "How can we provide you basically a way "to help upgrade your clusters, "essentially remotely, so you can upgrade, "if you will, your clusters, or at least "be able to consume them at different speeds." So what we introduced with OpenShift four was this ability to give you over the air updates, so the best way to think about it is with regard to a phone. So you have your phone, your new OS upgrades show up, you get a notification, you turn it on, and you say "Hey, pull it down," or you say at a certain point of time, or you can go off and delay it, do it at a different point in time. That same notion now exists within OpenShift. Which is to say, we provide you three channels, so there's a stable channel where you say "Hey look, maybe this cluster in production, "no rush here, I'll stay at or even a little behind," there's a fast channel for "Hey, I want to be up latest and greatest," or there's a third channel which allows for essentially features that are being in developed, or are still in early stage of development to be pushed out to you. So now you can start consuming these upgrades based on "Hey, I've got a dev team, "on day one I get these quicker," "I've got these applications that are stable in production, "no rush here." And then you can start managing that better yourself. So now if you will, those are capabilities that we're introducing into a Kubernetes platform, a standard Kubernetes platform, but adding additional value, to be able to have that be managed much much, in a much better fashion that serves the different needs of different parts of an organization, allows for them to move at different speeds, but at the same time, gives you that same consistent platform regardless of where you are. >> All right, so Ashesh, we started out the conversation talking about OpenShift anywhere and everywhere, so in the cloud, you talked about sitting on top of VMware, VM Farms is very prevalent in the data centers, or bare metal. I believe since I saw, one of the updates for OpenShift is how Red Hat virtualization is working with OpenShift there, and a lot of people out there are kind of staring out what VMware did with VSphere seven, so maybe you can set it up with a little bit of a compare contrast as to how Red Hat's doing this rollout, versus what you're seeing your partner VMware doing, or how Kubernetes fits into the virtualization environment. >> Yeah, I feel like we're both approaching it from different perspective and learnset that we come at it, so if I can, the VMware perspective is likely "Hey look, there's all these installations of VSphere "in the marketplace, how can we make sure "that we help bring containers there," and they've come up with a solution that you can argue is quite complicated in the way how they're achieving it. Our approach is a different one, right, so we always looked at this problem from the get-go with regard to containers as a new paradigm shift, it's not necessarily a revolution, because most companies that we're looking at are working with existing application services, but it's an evolution in the way you're thinking about the world, but this is definitely the long term future. And so how can we then think about introducing this environment, this application platform into the environment, and then be able to build a new application in it, but also bring in existing applications to the form? And so with this release of OpenShift, what we're introducing is something that we're calling OpenShift Virtualization, which is a few of our existing applications, certain VMs, how can we ensure that we bring those VMs into the platform, they've been certified, data security boundaries around it, or certain constraints or requirements have been put by your internal organization around it, and we can keep all of those, but then still encapsulate that VM as a container, have that be run natively within an environment orchestrated by OpenShift, Kubernetes as the primary orchestrator of those VMs, just like it does with everything else that's cloud-native, or is running directly as containers as well. We think that's extremely powerful, for us to really bring now the promise of Kubernetes into a much wider market, so I talked about 1700 customers, you can argue that that 1700 is the early majority, or if you will, almost the scratching of the surface of the numbers that we believe will adopt this platform. To get, if you held the next setup, whatever, five, 10, 20,000 customers, we'll have to make sure we meet them where they are. And so introducing this notion of saying "We can help migrate," with a series of tools that Rock's providing, these VM-based applications, and then have them run within Kubernetes in a consistent fashion, is going to be extremely powerful, and we're really excited about it, by those capabilities, bringing that to our customers. >> Well Ashesh, I think that puts a great exclamation point as to how we go from these early days off to the vast majority of environments, Ashesh, one thing, congratulations to you and the team on the growth, the momentum, all the customer stories, I'd love the opportunity to talk to many of the Red Hat customers about their digital transformation and how your cloud platforms have been a piece of it, so once again, always a pleasure to catch up with you. >> Likewise, thanks a lot, Stuart, good chatting with you, and hope to see you in person soon sometime. >> Absolutely, we at theCUBE of course hope to see you at events later in 2020, for the time being, we of course fully digital, always online, check out theCUBE.net for all of the archives as well as the events including all the digital ones that we are doing, I'm Stu Miniman, and as always, thanks for watching theCUBE. 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from around the globe it's the cube with digital coverage of Red Hat summit 2020 brought to you by Red Hat hi I'm Stu min a man and this is the cubes coverage of Red Hat summit having digitally interviewing practitioners executives and thought leaders from around the world happy to welcome back to our program one of our cube alumni a chef des données is the senior vice president of cloud platforms with Red Hat ashesh thank you so much for joining us and great to see you yeah likewise thanks for having me on Stu good to see you again all right so a shesh since the last time we had you on the cube a few things have changed you know one of them is that IBM has now finished the the acquisition of bread hat and I've heard from you from a really long time you know OpenShift it's anywhere and everywhere but with your exhibition Red Hat it just means you know this only run on IBM mainframes and IBM cloud and all things blue correct well that's true for sure right so Stu you know we're talking for many many times as you know we've been committed to hybrid multi-cloud from the very GetGo right so open ships supported to run on bare metal on which was asian platforms will they come from us or BM where microsoft happy on private clouds like OpenStack as well as AWS Google cloud as well as on a sure now with the completion of the IBM acquisition Red Hat we obviously always partnered with IBM before but given if you will a little bit for a close relationship here you know IB has been very keen to make sure that they promote open ships and all their platforms right so as you can probably see open idea about up as well as open shift on Xeon mainframe it's so regardless of how you like open shape wherever you like open ship you will get it yeah oh so great client clarification it's not only on IBM but of course all of the IBM environment are supported as you said as well as ad abs Google Azure and the like yeah it's you know I remember years ago before IBM created their single condensed conference I think I attended the conference that would do you know Z and power and storage and people would be like you know what are they doing you know with that mainframe I'm like well you do know that can run Linux wait it can run Linux I'm like oh my god these been able to run Linux for a really long time so you want your latest container docker you know openshift stuff on there yeah that can sit on a mainframe I thought some very large global companies that that is absolutely a part of their overall story so so interesting you by the way you say that because we already have customers who've been a procuring openshift on mainframe right so if you made the investment frame it's running much typical applications for you looking to modernize on the applications and then services run on top you know open ship domain say now there's an available option which customers already taking advantage of so exactly right to your point we're seeing that yeah and it's just maybe it's good to kind of you know you've got a great view point as to customers deploying across all sorts of environment so you mentioned VMware environments the public cloud environment you know it was you know our premise a few years ago on the cube that you know kubernetes gets baked into all the platform and absolutely it's going to just be you know a layer underneath I actually think we won't be talking a lot about kubernetes if you fast forward a couple years just because you know it's in there it's I'm using it in all of my environment so what are you seeing from your customers where are we in that general doctrine and you know any specifics you can give us about you know kind of the breadth and the depth of what you're seeing yes so you're exactly right all right we're seeing that adoption continue on the path it's been not so we've got now over 1,700 customers of poor openshift running in all of these environments that you mention right so public-private you know a combination of the two running on traditional which ization environments as well as ensuring that they run in public cloud that scale in some cases managed by customers other cases you've managed by by us on their behalf in a public cloud so we're seeing all permutations if you will you know of that in play today we're also seeing a huge variety workloads right and to me that's actually really interesting it and past that all right so earliest days as you'd expect you know people don't play with micro services right so trying to build unity Marc services and run it right so part native what have you then you know as we were ensuring that we're supporting stateful application right now you're starting to see if you a legacy application move on right ensuring that you know we can run them support them at scale you know within the platform you know customers looking to modernize applications I will talk maybe in a few minutes also a little bit of kind of Lipton shift you know that that you know you've got to play as well but now also we're starting to see new workloads come on right so just you know most recently we announced you know some the work that we're doing with series of partners right from Nvidia to emerging a IML you know a I utter intelligence machine learning frameworks ice bees you know looking to bring those to market been ensuring that those are supported and can run with open ship right our partners with Nvidia ensuring open ship we support you know GPU based environment for specific workloads right whether it be performance sensitive or you know specific workloads they take advantage of July starting now to see a wide variety if you will of application types is also something that that were chimes all right so numbers of customers increasing types of workloads you know you know coming on grazing and then the diversity of underlying deployment environments you know whether they're running balls it's such an important piece and I'm so glad you talked about it there because you know my backgrounds infrastructure and we tend to look at things as to oh well you know I move from a VM to a container the cloud or all these other things but the only reason infrastructure exists is to run my applications it's my data and my application that are the most important things out there so a shesha I want to get in some of the news that you've got here your team working a lot of things I believe one of them talks about you know some of those those new ways that customers are building applications and how openshift fits into those yeah absolutely so look we've been you know on this journey as you know for several years now you know recently we announced the GA of open ship you know server smash it support sto right increasing interest as for turning micro services and I won't take advantage of those capabilities are coming in you know at this event we're now also announcing the GA of open ship serverless but we're starting to see obviously a lot of interest right you know we've seen likes of AWS spawn that up in the first instance but more and more customers interested in making sure that they can get you know portable way to run server list in any kubernetes environment like to take advantage of open source projects as building blocks if you will right so primitives in within kubernetes to allow for surveillance capability is loud for you know scale down to zero support and serving and eventing up and having portable functions you know run across those environments so that that's something that is important to us and we're starting to see support up in the marketplace yeah so I I'd love just you know we've obviously I'm sure you've got lots of breakouts in the open ship server list but you know I've been talking to your team for a number of years and people is like oh well you know just as cloud killed everything before you know serverless obviates the need for everything else that we were going to use before underlying openshift server list my understand Kay native either is the solution or a piece of the solution help us understand you know what service environments decides into what this means for both your infrastructure team as well as your kind of app dev team yeah yeah and a great great question right so Kay native is the basis of our solar solution you know that we're introducing on open chef to the marketplace yeah the best way for me to talk about this right is is no one size fits all right so you're going to have you know specific applications or service that will take advantage of several SK abilities there will be some others that will take advantage of you know running within open ship they'll be yet others you know we talked to the robot and the AI ml frameworks that will run with different characteristics also within the platform so now the platform is being built to help support a diversity multitude of different ways of interacting with it right so I think maybe Stu you're starting to allude to this a little bit right so now we're starting to focus on you know we've got a great set of building blocks you know on the right compute network storage you know a set of primitives that you know kubernetes laid out right thinking of the notions of clustering and being able to scale and we'll talk about what management is well off of those clusters up and then it changes to hey what are the capabilities now that I need to be able to make sure that I'm most effective most efficient regard to these workloads that have been done you're probably hearing me say workloads now several times right because we're increasingly focused on adoption adoption adoption right how can we ensure that when these 1700 plus hopefully you know hundreds if not thousands more of customers come on how they can get the most variety of applications onto this platform right so it can be a true abstraction over all the underlying you know physical resources that they have across every deployment that they've put up all right well I wish we could spend another hour talking about the serverless piece I definitely going to make sure I check out some of the breakout that covered the feast and we talked to you but I I know there's a lot more that the open shift updates have so what other announcements news do you have to cover for yeah so a couple of the things they said I wanna make sure I highlight here one is Ghibli called ACM advanced cluster management that when you're saying right so there's a fair amount of work that was happening with the IBM team working on Plus imagine capabilities we've been doing some of that work ourselves within Red Hat you know as part of IBM Red Hat coming together we've had several folks from IBM actually joined Red Hat and so we're now open sourcing and providing this cluster magical with it right so this is the notion of being able to run and manage these different clusters from openshift at scale across a multitude of ironmans be able to check on cluster help people to apply policy could consistently provide governance ensure that appropriate application they're running appropriate clusters and so on right a series of capabilities to really allow for you know multiple Buster's to be run at scale and managed effectively right so that's one set of go ahead stick yeah if I could when I hear about multi cluster management III I think of some of the solutions I've heard talked about in the industry so you know as you're arc from Microsoft hanzou from VMware when they talk about multi cluster management it is not only the kubernetes solutions that they are offering but also you know how do I at least monitor if not even allow a little bit of control across these environments but when you talk about cluster management is that all you know kind of the the openshift pieces or things like a KS d KS other you know options out there how do those fit into the overall you know management story yeah that's absolutely our goal right so you know we gotta get started somewhere right so we obviously want to make sure that we bring in to effect the solution to manage OpenShift cluster that scale and of course as we'd expect multiple other bus will exist from kubernetes you know like the ones you mentioned from the cloud provider as well as others from third parties and we want the solution to manage that as well but you obviously we're going to sort of take steps to get to through the end point of this journey so yes we will we will get there right we've got to get started somewhere yeah and if chesh any guidance when you look at people you know some of the solutions I mentioned out there when they start out it here's the vision so what what guidance would you give to customers about kind of where we are how fast they can expect these things mature and you know I know anything that Red Hat does is going to be fully open force and everything but you know what what's your guidance out there is what customers people yeah so what was an interesting point I think in this kubernetes journey right now right so when we if you will start off and stew you and I've been talking about this for at least five years not longer was this notion that you know we want to provide a platform that can be portable and successfully run in multiple deployment environments and we've done that over these years but all the while when we were doing that we're always thinking about what are the capabilities that are needed that are perhaps not developed upstream but will be over time but we can ensure that we can look ahead and bring that into the path up and for a really long time I think we we still do right we at Red Hat take a lot of stick for saying hey look you've pork the platform now barn I'll come back to that has always been look we're trying to help solve problems that we believe enterprise customers have we want to ensure that the available open source and we want upstream those capabilities always and back into the community all right but you know let's say making available a platform without our back role based access control what's going to be hard then for enterprise to to adopt that we've got to make sure we introduce that capability and then make sure that it's supported upstream as well and there's a series of capabilities and features like that that we work through and we always provide an abstraction with an open ship to make it more productive for developers administrators to use it and we always also support you know working with coop ctrl or command line interface from coop as well right and then we always hear back from folks saying well you know you've got your own abstraction you know that might make that seem like before collect no you can use both coops ETL you use you know OC commands right whichever one you know is better for you right you have at it right we're just trying to be more productive and now increasingly what we're seeing in the marketplace is this notion that you know we've got to make sure we work our way up from not just laying out a kubernetes distribution but thinking about the additional capabilities additional services that you can provide that'll be more valuable to customers I think Stu you're making the point earlier right increasingly the more popular and the more successful kubernetes becomes the less you will see in Europe which by the way is exactly the way it should be because that becomes then the basis of your underlying infrastructure you're confident that you've got a lock rock-solid bottom and now you as a customer you as a user of focusing all your energy and time on building the productive application and services yeah great great points there are chefs write the division people always talked about is if I'm leveraging cloud services um I shouldn't have to worry about what version they're running well when it comes to kubernetes ultimately we should be able to get there but you know I I know there's always a little bit of a Delta between the latest and newest version of kubernetes that comes out and what the manage services and not only manage services what what customers are doing their own environment right even my understanding even Google you know which is where kubernetes came out of if you're looking at g/kg gke is not on the latest what are we up 1.19 start from the community is shesh so um yeah where's what what's Red Hat's position on this how do you what version are you up to how do you think customers should think about managing across those environments because boy yeah I've got too many you know stars from you know interoperability history go back in 15 years and everything like you know oh my server BIOS doesn't work on that latest kernel.org version of what we're doing for linux um you know Red Hat is probably better prepared than any company in the industry to deal with that you know massive change happening from a code based standpoint I've heard you good presentation on you know the history of Linux and kubernetes and what's going forward so when it comes to the release of kubernetes where are you would open ship and how should people be thinking about you know upgrading from version yeah another excellent points to it's you've been following this pretty closely over the years so we're where we came at this was we actually learned quite a bit from our experience the company with OpenStack and so what would happen the OpenStack is you'd have customers that are on a certain version OpenStack and they kept saying hey look you know we want to consume clothes of drugs we want new features we will move faster and you know we'd obviously spend some time right from the release in community to actually shipping our distribution into customers and you know there's gonna be some more time for testing in QE to happen and some integration points that need to be certified before we make it available we often found that customer all right so they'd be let's say a small subset if you will within every customer or several customers who want to be close could you close the trunk majority actually wanted the stability especially as you know time wore on right they were Wonder sensibility and you can understand that right because now if you've got mission-critical applications running on it you don't necessarily want to go ahead and and you know put that at risk so the challenge that we addressed when we actually started shipping OpenShift for last summit right so so about a year ago was to say how can we provide you basically a way to help upgrade your clusters you know essentially remotely so you can upgrade if you will your clusters or at least be able to consume them at different speeds all right so what we introduced with open shop for was this ability to give you the on the over-the-air updates right so best we think about it is with regard to a phone all right so you know you have your phone you know new OS upgrades show up you get a notification you turn it on and you say hey look pull it down or you say it's their important time or you can go off and delay you know I do it a different point in time that same notion now exists within open show right which is to say we provide you three channels right so there's a stable channel where you're saying hey look you know maybe this cluster is production no no rush here you know I'll stay you know add or even even little further behind there's a fast Channel right for hey I want to be up latest and greatest or there's a third channel which allows for essentially features that are being in developed or still in early stage of development to be pushed out tree so now you can start you know consuming these upgrades based on hey I've got a dev team you know they want here with these quicker you know I've got these you know application that stable production right no rush it and then you can start managing that you know better yourself right so now if you will do that here will be that we're introducing into a kubernetes platform us the under kubernetes platform but adding additional value to be able to have that be managed much much in a much better fashion that observed the different needs of different if an organization allows for them to move at different speeds but at the same time gives you that same consistent platform with all this way running all right so a chef we started out the conversation talking about open shift anywhere and everywhere so you know in the cloud you talked about you know sitting on top of vmware vm farms very prevalent the data centers you know or bare bare metal i believe if i saw right one of the updates for open shift is how RedHat virtualization is you know working with open shift there and you know a lot of people out there kind of staring at what vmware did would be sore seven so maybe you can set it up a little bit of a compare contrast as to how you know red hats doing this rollout versus what you're seeing your partner vmware doing for how kubernetes fits into the virtualization fire yeah I feel like we're both approaching it from you know different perspective and land set that we come at it right so if I can the VMware perspective is likely hey look you know there's all of these installation in the vSphere you know in the marketplace you know how can we make sure that we help you know bring containers there and they've come up with a solution that you can argue is quite complicated in the way how they're achieving it our approach is different one right so we've always you know looked at this problem from the get-go with regard to containers is a new paradigm shift right it's not necessarily a revolution because most companies that we're looking at are working with existing application services but it's an evolution and in the way you know you're thinking about the world but this is definitely the long-term future and so how can we then think about you know introducing this environment this application platform into your environment and then be able to build or build a new application in it but also bring in existing applications to before and so with this release of open ship what we introducing is something a bit for calling open ship virtualization now which is if you got existing applications that sit in VMs how can we ensure that we bring those VMs into the platform but you know they've been certified their security boundaries around it or you know constraints or reforms have been put by your own internal organization around it and we can keep all of those but then still encapsulate that VM as a container have that be run natively within an environment and orchestrated by open ship you know kubernetes as the primary Orchestrator of those VMs just like it does with everything else that's cloud native orb or is running directly as container as well we think that's extremely powerful for us to really bring now the promise of urban Eddie's into a much wider market rights I talked about 79 customers you can argue that that 1700 is the early majority right or who else are the the almost scratching of the surface of the numbers that we believe will adopt this platform to get if you will the next if set of whatever five ten twenty thousand customers will have to make sure we meet them where they are now that you're introducing this notion of saying we can help migrate with a you know a series of tools that were also providing these VM based applications and then have them run within kubernetes in a consistent fashion it's going to extremely powerful really excited by it by those capabilities that predict that to our customers well I I think that puts a great exclamation point as to how we go from these early days off to you know the vast majority of environments yes once again congratulations to you and the team on the growth of momentum all the customer stories you know I've loved the opportunity to talk to many of the Red Hat customers about their digital transformation and how your cloud platform has been a piece of it so once again always a pleasure to catch up with you likewise thanks a lot Stuart good chatting with you and hope to see you in person soon absolutely.we at the cube of course hope to see you at events later in 2020 for the time being we of course fully digital always online check out the cube net for all of the archives as well as the event including all the digital ones that we are doing I'm sue minimun and as always thanks for watching the cube [Music]

>> Announcer: Live, from Boston, Massachusets, it's theCUBE covering Red Hat Summit, 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat. >> Well, welcome back here in Boston. We're at the BCEC as we are starting to wrap up our coverage here of day two of the Red Hat Summit, 2019. Along with Stu Miniman, I'm John Walls, and we're now joined by Ashesh Badani, who is the senior vice president of Cloud Platforms at Red Hat. Been a big day for you, hasn't it Mr. Badani? >> It sure has, thanks for having me back on! >> You bet! All right, so OpenShift 4, we saw the unveiling, your baby gets introduced to the world. What's the reaction been between this morning and this afternoon in terms of people, what they're asking you about, what they're most curious about, and maybe what their best reaction is. >> Yeah, so it's not necessarily a surprise for the folks who have been following OpenShift closely, we put the beta out for a little while, so that's the good news, but let me roll back just a little. >> John: Sure >> I think another part of the news that was really important for us is our announcement of a milestone that we crossed, which is a thousand customers, right? And it was at this very summit and theCUBE definitely knows this well, right, because they've been talking for a while. At this very Summit in 2015, four years ago, that we launched OpenShift Version 3. Right and so, you know you fast forward four years, right, and now the diversity of cases that we see, you know, spanning, established apps, cloud native apps, we heard Exxon talking about AIML data signs that they're putting on the platform, in a variety of different industries, is amazing. And I think the way OpenShift 4 has come along for us, is us having the opportunity to learn what have all these customers been doing well, and what else do we need to do on the platform to make that experience a better one. How do we reimagine enterprise kubernetes, to take it to the next level. And I think that's what we're introducing to the industry. >> Ashesh I think back four years ago, kubernetes was not something that was on the tip of the tongues of most people here. Congratulations on 1,000. >> Thank you. >> I hear what, 100, 150, new customers every quarter is the current rate there, but what I've really enjoyed, talked to a CIO and they're like okay, we're talking about digital transformation, we're talking about how we're modernizing all of our environments, and OpenShift is the platform that we do it. So, talk a little bit, from a customer's standpoint, the speeds, the feeds, the technical pieces, but that outcome, what is it an enabler of for your customers? >> Yeah, so excellent points Stu, we've seen whole sale complete digital transformations underway with our customers. So whether it's Deutsche Bank, who came and talked about running thousands of containers now, moving a whole bunch of workload onto the platform, which is incredible to see. Whether it's a customer like Volkswagen, who talking yesterday, if you caught that, about building an autonomous, self-driving, sets of technologies on the platform. What we're seeing is not just what we thought we would only see in the beginning which is one built, cloud native apps, and digital apps, and so on. Or, more nice existing apps, and bring them on the platform. But also, technologies that are making a fundamental difference, and I'll call one out. So I'm a judge for The Innovation Awards, we do this every year, I have been for many years, I love it, it's one of my favorite parts of the show. This year, we had one entry, which is one of the winners, which is HCA, which is a healthcare provider, talking about how they've been using the OpenShift platform as a means to make a fundamental difference in patients' lives. And when I say fundamental difference, actually saving lives. And you'll hear more about their story, but what they've done, is be able to say, look how can we detect early warning signals, faster than we have been, take some AI technology, and correlate against that, and see how we can reduce sepsis within patients. It's a very personal story for me, my mother died of sepsis. And the fact that they've been able to do this, and I think they're reporting they've already saved dozens of lives based on this. That's when you know, the things that you're doing are making a real difference, making a real transformation, not just in an actual customers' lives, but in users and people around the world. >> You were saying earlier too, Ashesh, about looking at what customers are doing and then trying to improve upon that experience, and give them a more effective experience, whatever the right adjective might be, in terms of what you're doing with 4. If you had to look at it, and say okay, these are the two or three pillars of this where I think we've made the biggest improvement or the biggest change, what would those be? >> Yes, so, one is to look at the world as it is in some sense, which is what a customer's doing. Customers weren't deployed to hybrid cloud, right? They want choice, they want independence with regard to which environments are rented on, whether it's physical, virtual, private, or any public cloud. Customers want one platform, to say I want to run these next generation, cloud native, market service based applications, along with my established stateful applications. Customers want a platform for innovation, right? So for example, we have customers that say, look, I really need a modern platform because I want to recruit the next generation of developers from colleges, if I don't give them the ability to play with Go, or Python, or new databases, they're gonna go to some Silicon Valley company, and I'm going to deplete my pool of talent that I need to compete, right? 'Cause digital transformation is about taking existing companies, and making them digitally enabled. Going forward, what we're also seeing is the ability for us to say well maybe the experience we've given existing customers can be improved. How do we for example, give them a platform, that's more autonomous in nature, more self-driving in nature, that can heal itself, based on for example, there's a critical update that's required that we can send over the air to them. How can we bring greater automation into the platform? It's all of those ideas that we've got based on how customers are using it today, is what we're bringing to bear, going forward. >> Ashesh, one of the errors we have trying to help customers parse through the language is, everybody's talking about platforms, if you look at the public clouds, everybody's all in on kubernetes, a few weeks ago, we were at the Google Cloud event, talked to Red Hat there, there's Anthos, there's OpenShift, look at Azure, we Satya Nadella up on stage, and you're like, okay they've got their own kubernetes platform, but I've got OpenShift fully integrated there. >> Ashesh: Yeah. >> Can you help is kinda understand how those fit together because it's an interesting and changing dynamic. >> Well it's a very Silicon Valley buzzword, right? Everyone wants a platform, everyone wants to build a platform, Facebook's a platform, Uber's a platform, Airbnb is, everything's seeming a platform, right? What I really want to focus on more is in regard to, we want to be able to give folks literally an abstraction level, an ability for companies to say I want to embrace digital transformation. Before we get there, someone's like what's digital transformation, I don't even understand what that means anymore. My simple definition is basically flipping the table. Typically companies spend 80% on maintenance, 20% innovation, how do we flip that? So they're spending 80% innovation, 20% maintenance. So if we're still thinking in those terms, let me give you a way to develop those applications, spend more time and energy on innovation, and then allow for you to take advantage of what I'll call a pool of resources. Compute, network, and storage. Across the environment that you have in place. Some of which you might own, some of which some third parties might provide for you, and some of which you get from public cloud. And take advantage of innovation that's being done outside. Innovative services that come from either public cloud providers, or ISPs, or separate providers, and then be able to do that innovated rapid fashion, you know, develop, deploy, iterate quickly. So to me that is really fundamentally what we're trying to provide customers, and it takes different forms, internal packaging. >> Maybe you can explain to me, the Azure OpenStack seems different than some of the other partnerships. Two years ago, when we were sitting in this building, we talked to you about AWS with OpenShift in that partnership, so what's differentiated and special about the Azure OpenStack integration. >> Yeah, so the Azure partnership, it's a good question because we've now taken our partnering with the public cloud providers to the next level, if you will. With Azure there's a few things in play, first it's a jointly offered managed service from Red Hat and Microsoft, where we're both supporting it together. So in the case of OpenShift and AWS, that's you know OpenShift directly to the ring of service, in this case, it's right out of Microsoft, working close together to make that happen. It's a native service to Azure, so if you saw in the keynote, you could use a command line to call OpenShift directly integrate into the Azure command line. It's available within the interface of Microsoft-Azure. So it feels like a native service, you can take advantages of other Azure services, and bring those to bear, so obviously increases developer experience from that perspective. We also inherit all the compliances, certifications, that Microsoft-Azure has, as well, for that service, as well as all the availability requirements that they put out there, so it's much more closely integrated together, much better developer experience, native to Azure, and then the ability for the Microsoft sales team to go out and sell it to their customers in conjunction. >> You talk a lot about different partnerships, and bringing this collaborative, open-mindset to each and every relationship, how hard is that to do? Because you have your of way of doing things and it's worked very well, and yet, you go out and you have these new partnerships or extensions of partnerships, and not everybody with whom you work does things the same way, and so, everybody's gotta be malleable to a certain extent, but just in terms of being that flexible all the time, what does that do for you? >> So, we take that for granted sometimes, the way we work. And I don't mean to say that to be boastful, or arrogant, in any fashion. I had an interview earlier today, and the reporter said why don't you put on your page, that you're 100% open source? And I said we never put that on our page because that's just how we work, we assume that, we assume everyone knows that about us, and we're going forward. And he says, well, I don't know, perhaps there's others that don't know. And he's right. The world's changing, we're expanding our opportunities in front of folks. In the same way we've only and always known, we used to collaborate with others in the community, before we fully embraced OpenStack, there were certain projects that Red Hat was investing in that were Red Hat driven, and we say maybe there wasn't as much community around it, we're gonna go down and embrace and fully parse an OpenStack community. Same's the case, for example, in kubernetes too. It's not necessarily a project that we created on our own, in conjunction with Google, and many others in the community. And so that's something that's part of our DNA, I'm not sure we're doing anything different, in engaging with communities, just how we work. >> So, Ashesh, I know your team's busy doing a lot of things. We've been hearing about what sessions are overflowing, down in the expo floor, so why don't you give us some visibility. But there was one specific one I wondered if you could start with. >> Ashesh: Sure. >> So down on the expo floor, it's a containerized environment and it has something to do with puppies, and therefor how does that connect with OpenShift 4 if we can start there. >> That's a tough one, you're gonna have to go and ask the puppies how to make a difference in the world. (laughing) >> John: So we go from kubernetes to canines, (laughing) that's what we're doing here. >> I do believe they're comfort dogs, but there was coding and some of the other stuff, so give us a little bit of the walk around, the expo flow, the breakouts and the like, in some of the hot areas, that your team's working on. >> Fair enough, fair enough. Maybe not puppies, but maybe we're trying to herd cats, close enough, right? >> John: Safer terrain. >> The amount of interest, the number of sessions, with OpenShift, or container based technologies, cloud based technologies, it's tremendous to see that. So regardless if whether you see the breakouts that are in place, the customer sessions, I think we've got over 100 customers, I think. Who are presenting on all aspects of their journey. So to me, that's remarkable. Lots of interest in our road map going forward, which is great to see, standing room only for OpenShift 4 and where we're taking that. Other technology that's interesting, the work, for example, we're doing in serverless. We announced an OpenSource collaboration with Mircrosoft, something called KEDA, the Kubernetes eventually. Our scaling project, so interesting how customers can kind of engage around that as well. And then the partner ecosystem, you can walk around and see just a plethora of ISVs, we're all looking to build operators, or have operators and are certifying operators within our ecosystem. And then it's ways for us to expose that to our joint customers. >> We're gonna cut you loose, and let you go, the floor's gonna be open for a few minutes, those puppies are just down behind Stu, we'll let you go check that out. >> Alright, thanks, I hear you can adopt them if you want to, as well. >> Before we let you go see the comfort dogs, 1,000 customers, where do you see, when we come back a year from now, where you are, where you wanna see it go, show us a little bit looking forward. >> So there's been some news around Red Hat that has probably happened over the last few months, the people are hearing this, I look at that as a great opportunity for us to expand our reach into markets, both in terms of industries perhaps we haven't necessarily gone into, that other companies have been. Perhaps we say it's manufacturing, perhaps this is the opportunity for us to cross the chasm, have a lot more trained consultants who can help get more customers on the journey, so I fully expect our reach increasing over a period time. And then you'll see, if you will, iterations of OpenShift 4 and the progress we've made against that, and hopefully many more success stories on the stage. >> Alright, looking forward to catching up next year, if not sooner. >> Ashesh: Okay, excellent. >> John: And congratulations on today, and best of luck down the road. >> Thanks again for having me. >> And good to see you! >> Ashesh: Yeah, likewise! >> Back with more on theCube, you are watching our coverage live, here from Red Hat Summit, 2019, in Boston, Massachusetts. (upbeat techno music)

>> Live from Seattle, Washington, it's the Cube, covering KubeCon and Cloud Native Con North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back everyone. We are live in Seattle for KubeCon 2018, Cloud Native Con. It's the Cube, I'm John Furrier, your host with Stu Miniman. Our next guest is Ashesh Badani, who is the Vice-President and General Manager of Cloud Platforms at Red Hat. Great to see you, welcome back to the Cube. >> Thanks for having me on. Always good to be back. >> So you guys, again, we talk every year with you. It's almost like a check-in. So what's new? You got some big, obviously, the news about the IBM. We don't really want to get into that detail. I know you just a stop on that because it's already out there. But you guys had great success with platformers of service. Now you got the growth of Kubecon and Cloud Native Con, 8000 attendees and users. There's uptake. What's the update on the Red Had side? >> Yeah, we're excited. Excited to be back at Kubecon. It's bigger and better than it's ever been, I think so. That's fantastic. We've been investing in this community for over four years now, since 2014. Really, from the earliest days. Based the entire platform on it. Continue growing that, adding lots of customers across the world. And I think what's really been gratifying for us to see is just the diversity of participants. Both in user perspective as well as the wider ecosystem. So whether you're a storage player, a networking player, management, marketing, what have you. Everything sort of building around this ecosystem. I think we're creating a great amount of value and we're seeing diverse applications being built. >> So you guys have been good then on (mumbles), good timing, a lot of things are going on. This show is an open-source community, right. And that's been a great thing. This is kind of where the end users come from. But two other personas come in that we're seeing participate heavily. The IT pro, the IT expert, and then the classic developer. So you have kind of a melting pot of how this is kind of horizontally connecting. You guys have been successful in the IT side. Where is this impacting the end users?6 How is this open-source movement impacting IT, specifically, and at the end of the day, the developers who are writing code? Have to get more stuff out. What's your thoughts? >> So, we hosted OpenShift Commons yesterday. OpenShift Commons, for the the folks who don't know, is our gathering of participants within the larger OpenShift community. We had lots of end users come and talk about the reason they're adopting a Kubernetes-based platform is to get greater productivity. So for example, if you're someone like Progressive Insurance, an established organization, how do you release applications quicker? How do you make your developers more productive? How do you enable them to have more languages, tools, frameworks at their disposal? To be able to compete in this world where you've got start-ups, you've got other companies trying to compete aggressively with you. I think it's a big dent here, right? It's not just for if you work traditional IT. But it's for if you were a company of all sizes. >> When you talk about customers, every customer is different. You've got, you look at IT, everything is additive, it tends to be a bit of a heterogeneous mess when you get there. Help connect for us what are you hearing from customers? How does, not just Kubernetes, but everything going on here in the Cloud Native environment? How is it helping them? How is it changing the way that they do their business and how's Red Hat involved? >> So one thing we've been noticing is that Hybrid Cloud is here and here to stay. So we've consistently been hearing this from customers. They've invested lots of money and time and energy, skills, in their existing environments. And they want to take advantage of public clouds. But they want to do that with flexibility, with portability, to bring to bear. What we've been trying to do is focus on exactly that. How do we help solve that problem and provide an abstraction. How do you provide primitives. So, for example, we announced our support of Knative, and how we'll make that available as part of OpenShift. Why's that? Well, how can we provide Serverless primitives within the platform so folks can have the flexibility to be able to adopt next-generation technologies. But to be able to do that consistently regardless of where they deploy. >> So, I love that. Talk about meeting the customers there. One of the things that really strikes me, there's so much change going on in the industry. And that's an area that Red Hat has a couple decades of experience. Maybe help explain how Red Hat in bringing some of that enterprise, oversight. Just like they've done for Linux for a long time. >> Yeah, yeah. Stu, you're following us very closely, as are you John, and the team at the Cube. We're trying to embrace that change as it comes upon us. So, I think the last time I was here, I was here with Alex Polvi of Core OS. Red Hat acquired Core OS in January. >> Big deal. >> Yeah, big acquisition for us. And now we're starting to see the fruits of some of that labor. In terms of integrating that technology. Why did we do that? We wanted to get more automation into the platform. So, customers have said, hey, look, I want these clusters to be more self-managing, self-healing. And so we've been really focused on saying how can we take those challenges the customers have, bring that directly into a platform so they're performing more and more like the expectations that they have in the public cloud, but in these diverse, introgenous, environments. >> That speaks to the operating model of cloud. You guys have a wholistic view because you're Red Hat. You got a lot of customers. You have the Dev House model, you got the Kubernetes container orchestration, micro-services. How does that all connect together for the customer? I mean, is it Turn Key and Open Shift? You guys had that nice bet with Core OS, pays big, huge dividends. What are some of those fruits in the operating model? So the customer has to think about the systems. It's a systems model, it's an operating system, so-to-speak. But they still got to develop and build apps. So you got to have a systems-wholistic view and be able to deliver the value. Where does it all connect? What's your explanation? >> So distributed systems are complex. And we're at the point where no individual can keep track of the hundreds, the thousands, the hundred-thousand containers that are running. So, the only way, then, to do it is to be able to say, how can the system be smart? So, at the Commons yesterday we had sort of a tongue-in-cheek slide that said, the factory of the future will only have two employees, a man and a dog. The man's there to feed the dog, and the dog's in place to ensure the man doesn't go off and actually touch the equipment. And the point really being, how can we bring technology that can bring that to bare. So, one example of that is actually through our Core OS acquisition. The Core OS team was working on a technology called, operators. Which is to say, how can we take the human knowledge that exists. To take complex software that's built by third parties and bring that natively into the platform and then have the platform go and manage them on behalf of the actual customer itself. Now we've got over 60 companies building operators. And we've, in fact, taken entire open-shift platforms, put operators to work. So it's completely automated and self-managed. >> The trend of hybrid is hot. You mentioned it's here to stay. We would argue that it's going to be a gateway to multi-cloud. And as you look at the stacks that are developing and the choices, the old concept of a stack-- and Chris was on earlier, the CTO of CNCF. And I kind of agree with him. The old notion of stack is changing because if you've got a horizontal, scale-able cloud framework, you got specialty with machine learning at the top, you got a whole new type of stack model. But, multi-cloud is what the customers want choice for. Red Hat's been around long enough to know what the multi-vendor word was years ago. Multi-vendor choice, multi-cloud choice. Similar paradigms happening now. Modern version of multi-vendor is multi-cloud. How do you guys see the multi-cloud evolution? >> So we keep investing and helping to make that a reality. So, last week, we made some announcements around Open Shift dedicators. Open Shift dedicators is the Open Shift manage service, or AWS. Open Shift is available in ways where it can be self-managed directly by customers in a variety of environments. Directly run around any public cloud or open stack, or what you'd like environment. We have third-party partners. For example, DXC D-systems providing managed versions of Open Shift. And then you can have Red Hat managed Open Shift for you. For example, on AWS, or coming next year, with Microsoft. Through our partnership for Open Shift on Azure. So you as a customer now have, I think, more choice than you ever had before. In terms of adopting Dev-Ops or dealings with micro-services. But then having flexibility with regard to taking advantage of tools, services, that are coming from, pretty much, every corner of IT industry. >> You guys have a huge install base. You've been servicing customers for many, many years, decades. Highest level support. Take us through what a customer, a traditional Red Hat customer that might not be fully embracing the cloud in the past, now is on-boarding to the cloud. What's the playbook? What do you guys offer them? How do you engage with them? What's the playbook? Is it, just buy Open Shift? Is there a series of-- how do you guys bring that Red Hat core Lenux customer that's been on Prim. Maybe a little bit out of shadow IT in the cloud, saying, hey, we're doing additional transformation. What's the playbook? >> So, great question, John. So, first fall into the transformation might be an over-hyped term. Might be a peak hype at this point in time. But I think that the bigger point from my perspective is how do you move more dollars, more euros, more spend towards innovation. That's what every company is sort of trying to do. So, our focus is, how can we build on the investments that they've made? At this point in time, (mumbles) Lenux probably has 50,000 customers. So, pretty much, every customer, any size, around the world, is some kind of Lenux user. How can we then say, how can we now provide you a platform to have greater agility and be able to develop these services quicker? But, at the same time, not forget the things that enterprises care about. So, last week we had our first big security issue released on Kubernetes. The privilege escalation flaw. And so, obviously, we participate in the community. We had a bunch of folks, along with others addressing that, and then we rolled our patches. Our patch roll-out went back all the way to version 3.2, 3.2 shipped in early 2016. Now, the one hand you say, hey, everyone has Dev-Ops, why do you need to have a patch for something that's from 2016? That's because customers still aren't moving as quickly as we'd like. So, I just want to temper, there's an enthusiasm with regard to, everyone's quick, everything's lightning fast. At the same time, we often find-- and so, going back to your question, we often find some enterprises will just take a little bit longer, in reality to kind of get-- (both speaking at once) >> Work loads, they're not going to be moving overnight. >> That's right. >> So there's some legacy from those workloads. >> Right, right. And so, what we want to do is ensure, for example, the platform. So we talked about the security and lifecycle. But, is supporting these Cloud Native, next generation, stateless applications, but also established legacy stateful applications all on the same platform. And so the work we're doing is ensure we don't-- you know, it's like, leave no application behind. So, either the work that we'll do, for example, with Red Hat Innovation Labs. We help sort of move that forward. Or with GSIs, global integrated, real integrators to bring those to bare. >> Ashesh, wonder if we could drill a little bit. There's a lot of re-training that needs to happen. I've been reading lots on there. It's not, oh, I bring in this new Cloud Native team that's just going to totally re-vamp it and take my old admins and fire them all. That's not the reality. There's not enough training people to do all of this wonderful stuff. We see how many people are at this show. Explain what Red Hat's doing. Some of the training maturation, education paths. >> So we do a lot of work on the just core training aspect, learning services, get folks up to speed. There's work that happens, for example, in CNCF. But we do the same thing around certifications, around administering the systems, developing applications, and so on. So that's one aspect that needs to be learned. But then there's another aspect with regard to how do we get the actual platform, itself, to be smart enough to do things, that in the past, individual people had to do? So, for example, if we were to sort of play out the operator vision fully and through execution. In the past, perhaps you needed several database admins. But, if you had operators built for databases, which, for example couch, base, and mongo, and others, have built out. You can now run those within the platform and then that goes and manages on behalf. Now you don't need as many database admins, you free those people up now to build actual business innovation value. So, I think what we're trying to do is increasingly think about how we sort of, if you will, move value up the stack to free up resources to kind of work on building the next generation of services. And I think that's our business transformation work. >> And I think, even though digital transformation is totally over-hyped, which I agree, it actually is really relevant. Because I think the cloud wave, right now, has been certainly validated. But what's recognized is that, people have to re-imagine how they do their infrastructure. And IT is programmable. You're seeing the network. The holy trinity of IT is storage, networking, and compute. So, when you start thinking about that in a way that's cloud-based, it's going to require them to, I don't want to say re-platform, but really move to an operating-environment that's different, that they used to have. And I think that is real. We're seeing evidence of that. With that in mind, what's next? What do you guys got on the horizon? What's the momentum here? What's the most important story that you guys are telling here at Red Hat? And what's around the corner? >> Yeah, so obviously, I talked about a few announcements that we made right around Open Shift Dedicated and the upgrades around that. And things like, for example, supporting bring-your-own-cloud. So, if you got your own Amazon security credentials, we help support that. And manage that on your behalf, as well. We've talked this week about our support native, trying to introduce more server-less technologies into Open Shift. We announced the contribution of SCD to the Cloud Native Computing Foundation. So, continuing re-affirming our commitment to the community I think looking ahead, going forward, our focus next year will be on Open Shift four, which will be the next release of the platform. And there, it's all about how do we give you a much better install than upgrade experience than you've had before? How do we give you these clusters that you can deploy in multiple different environments and manage that better for you? How do we introduce operators to bring more and more automation to the platform? So, for the next few months our focus is on creating greater automation in the platform and then enabling more and more services to be able to run on that. >> Pretty exciting for you guys riding the wave, the cloud wave. Pretty dynamic. A lot of action. You've guys have had great success, congratulations. >> Thank you very much. >> You're fun to watch. The Cube coverage here. We're in Seattle for KubeCon 2018 and Cloud Native Con. I'm John your host. Stay with us for more coverage of day one of three days of coverage after this short break. We'll be right back. (upbeat music)

>> Let me check. (uptempo orchestral music) (uptempo techno music) >> Live, from San Francisco, it's theCUBE! Covering Red Hat Summit 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat. >> Hey welcome back everyone, we are live here with theCUBE in San Francisco, Moscone West, for Red Hat Summit 2018. I'm John Furrier, co-host of theCUBE, with John Troyer co-host, analyst this week. the TechReckoning co-founder. Our next two guests are Ashesh Badani, vice president and general manager of OpenShift Platform and Alex Polvi, CEO of CoreOS, interview of the week because CoreOS now part of Red Hat. Congratulations, good to see you again. Thanks for coming on theCUBE. >> You're welcome. >> So obviously this is for us, we've been covering both of you guys pretty heavily and we've been commenting very positively around the acquisition of CoreOS. Two great companies that know open-source, pure open-source. You guys got the business model nailed down, these guys got great tech. You bring it together. So the first question is how's everyone doing? How's everyone feeling? And where's the overlap, if any and where's the fix? Explain the true fit of CoreOS. >> I'm going to start Alex, you want to jump in after. We're very excited right, so when we first had interactions with CoreOS, we knew this is going to be a great fit. The conversation we had earlier, both companies delivers in open-source, delivers in the mission center to take us forward regard to Kubernetes, as the container orchestration engine, and then being able to build out value for our customers around it. I think from our perspective, the work that both CoreOS did in advancing the community forward but also the work they've done around automation or their upgrades, management metering, charge back and so on. Being able to bring all those qualities into Red Hat is incredible. So I think the fits been good. It's been three months, I'll let Alex comment some more on that but we've been doing a lot of work from integration perspective around engineering, around product management. At Red Hat Summit this week, we reveal details around some of the converged road maps, which I can talk about some more as well. So we're feeling pretty good about it. >> Alex, your reaction. >> Yes, it's been three months. If you've studied CoreOS at all, you know everything that we do really centers around this concept of automated operations. And so by being part of Red Hat, we're starting to bring that to market in a much bigger and faster way of really accelerating it. The way the acquisition are really successful is either mutually beneficial to both companies and they accelerate the adoption of technology and that's definitely happening. We had the announcement yesterday with Red Hat CoreOS around the Linux distribution. Last week, we did the operator framework. It was very central to the work that we've been doing as part of CoreOS, and then as companies in a lot of ways is being part of Red Hat for three months now. This is what our company would have looked like if we ever just another 10 years along or whatever very similar, we're like a mini Red Hat, and now we're leaped ahead in a big way. >> And you guys done a good work. We've documented on theCUBE many times, and we were in Copenhagen last week. Now covering the operating framework but I want to get your reaction. You guys did a lot of great work on the tech side obviously, you can go into more detail but we've always been saying on theCUBE. If you try to force monetization in these emerging markets, you're optimizing behavior. And this was something that's gone on, we've seen containers. It's been well documented obviously what's happened. It's certainly a beautiful thing. Got Kubernetes now on top working together with that. If as an entrepreneur out there that are building companies. If you try to force the monetization too early, you really thinking differently. You guys stay true to it. Now we've got a good home with Red Hat. Talk about that dynamic because that was something that I know you guys faced at CoreOS and you've managed through it. Tempted probably many times to do something. Talk about the mission that you had, staying true to that and just that dynamic. It's challenging. >> Yeah, as we set out to build a company in general, there are really three operating principles. There is build a great technology to solve our mission which is to secure the internet through automated operations, build a great place to spend their days which is really about the people and the culture and so on. Why are we doing this, and the third was to make it sustainable and by that I mean to build their own money fountains, building out of the middle of our campus. And so by joining Red Hat it's we have a money fountain sitting there. (laughing) It's spewing off a ton of cash flow every single quarter that allows us to continue to do those first two things in perpetuity, and that third one is something every company needs in order to continue to execute towards the mission. And the thing that's so awesome about working with Red Hat is we're very much aligned and compatible. Red Hat's mission isn't exactly the same thing we are working but it's definitely compatible. It's like Apache and GPL are compatible. It's like that type of compatible. >> You both believe in open-source in a big way. Talk about the Red Hat perspectives. Now you got like a kid in a candy store. Openshift made a big bed with Kubernetes. You see now, you have the CoreOS, how has it changed in Red Hat internally? Things moving around actually accelerates the game a bit for you guys, and you're seeing new life being pumped into OpenStack. You're seeing clear line of sight with Kubernetes on the app side. We were just at KubeCon. A lot of people are pretty excited. There's clear lines of sight on what's defacto. What people are going to build around, and also differentiate. >> Right, so I'll start off by saying I really hope our CEO, Jim Whitehurst doesn't see this interview but if it goes off in terms of money factor. I'm currently make budget request. I think I know what's going on. >> Balance sheet, cashless now. It's in the public filings. If I see a fountain of money spewing off the thing, >> The ability to reinvest. >> This is a really good fit. (laughing) The way to say this, they have a great business model. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Some of us will make money, some of us will spend the money. Some of us will spend the money, it will work out well. (laughing) >> It's a great win. It's a great win. It obviously accelerates the plans. The commercialization is already there with Red Hat. This is just a good thing for everybody but the impact of you guys accelerating, just seeing OpenShift. You can boil it down to the impact of Red Hat. What is the impact? >> So in all seriousness, I think the focus for us really has been about there is so much complimentary work that's been going on with the CoreOS team that we're bringing into OpenShift, and to Red Hat in general that accelerates everything that you're seeing. You saw some amazing announcements happen this week with regard to our partnership with Microsoft and getting OpenShift out and Azure, and joint support offering. The work we're doing with IBM to get IBM middleware as well as IBM Cloud Private support integrated with OpenShift. The work that Alex referred to around automation, being able to bring that to our customers. We see all the excitement around that front as well so we want to take all Techtonic work that has been going on at CoreOS, then move that to OpenShift. Carry forward the community that CoreOS built around Container Linux, and actually inject a lot those ideas into that Linux, our flagship technology. Bring that passion and energy to bear as well, and then carry forward a lot of the other projects that they have. For example, the Quake Container Registry, that's extremely popular. Carry that forward, support our customers to use that both stand alone integrated with the OpenShift platform. Other projects like FCB that Alex has been talking about which is the underpinnings of Kubernetes plus running worldwide. So all of those things, we can bring forward, and then all the advancements that were made in place by CoreOS as they're working towards their money fountain, just plug that right into it. >> And just as a point of reference, Brendan Burns flew in yesterday. Microsoft Build is going up so he left their own conference to come down here. >> As did Scar Guthrie, right? >> That's a great testament. This is the testament. They're coming down, really laying down support. This is a real big deal. This is not a fake deal, it's real. >> And so I want to talk a little bit about specifics of the timeline, the road maps. Sometimes with these mergers or acquisitions, it's well the technology will be incorporated at some point, and then it goes away to die and you never see it again. And then the people all leave, and then you ask what was going on. But here, you actually have, I was great. You were talking to me. You have some specific timelines and we'll start to see some of the Techtonics Stack in OpenShift fairly soon. >> Yes, absolutely so the acquisition was announced three months ago and we said at that time that by Red Hat Summit, we'll lay out for you a road map and so we're now starting to do that. We put out release of some materials around some details with regard to how that's coming out. We have detailed sessions going on at Red Hat Summit around the integration plans between Red Hat, OpenShift and CoreOS with a few specific areas with regard to OpenShift. You'll start seeing the earliest versions if you will of the work that's being done. This summer, we'll deliver the full road map to you there by the end of this calendar year. With regard to, for example pieces like the Quake Container Registry that's being made available and being sold now as we speak. Customers can go get that, and we want to make sure no customer is left behind. Right, that's a principle we put out. And with regard to supporting any existing customers on Techtonic or the Container Linux space, we're doing that as we're working to integrate them into the Red Hat portfolio. Can you talk a little bit about the decision for Red Hat's atomic coast and Container Linux? Now re-named again, CoreOS. That was one of the seminal inventions that you all made as you started the company. I think it had some brilliant ideas again about security and the operational aspects but can you talk about some of those technologies and the decisions made there? >> Yeah, like I said, the acquisition of CoreOS Red Hat was about saying look what can we take that CoreOS has been doing to accelerate both work and community but also what could be doing to deliver this technology to customers. So the goal was we'll take all the atomic and the word that's been going on there have that be superseded by the work that's coming out of CoreOS Container Linux carry the community forward. Release a version of that called Red Hat CoreOS and in its initial form make that actually an underlying environment to run OpenShift in. Okay so for customers who want the automation that Alex talked about earlier. They made that available both at the underlying platform. Make it available in OpenShift platform itself via the work that's come from Techtonic, and then ultimately, Alex will talk about this some more through operators. So trusted operations from ISP or third party software that would run on the platform. All right so now if you will, we'll have full stack automation all the way through. OpenShift also support Red Hat Linux, a traditional environment for the thousands of customers that we have globally. Over a period of time, you should expect to see much of the work that's going on Red Hat CoreOS find its way into it as well. So I think this just benefits all around for us both in the near term as well as long. >> And Red Hat Container certification, where does that fit into all this? >> Yeah, a great question, so what we announced maybe was, actually was two years ago was a Container certification program. Last year, we spent some time talking about the health of those containers, and being able to provide that to customers. And this year, we're talking about trusted operations around those containers. That carries forward, we've got hundreds of ISPs that have built certified containers around it, and now with the operator framework, we've had, I think it's four ISPs demonstrating previews of their operators working with our platform as well as 60 more that are committed to building ISP operators that will be certified again. >> So people are certified in general, pretty much. I think we're very excited. The fact that we went to KubeCon last week, announced that the operating framework have been based on the ideas that the CoreOS team has been working on for at least two years. Making that available to the community and then saying for the ISPs that want a path to market. Going back to the money fountain again for the ISP that want to pass through market which is pretty much all of them. We also have the ability to do that so give them an opportunity to make sure that as wide as possible some adoption of the software at the same time help with commercialization. >> Can you guys share your definition of operator because I saw the announcement but we we're on a broader definition when we see the DevOps movement going the next level. It's all about automation and security, you mentioned that admin roles are being automated in a way to see more of an operator function within enterprise and emerging service providers. So the role operator now takes on two meanings. It's a software developer. It also is a network operator, it's also a service, so what is that, how do you guys view that role because if this continues, you're going to have automation. More administrator is going to be self healing, all this stuff is going to go on. Potentially operations is now the developers and IT all blurring together. How do you guys define the word operator in the future state? >> Well I know the scenario of great interest to you. >> So operator is the term for the piece of software that implements the automated operations. And so automated operations, what is that? Well that's what sets apart, the way I think about it is what sets apart a cloud provider verses a hosting provider. It's a set of software that really runs the thing for you and so if we're going to get into specific Kubernetes lingo, it would be an application specific controller. That's a piece of software that's implements the automated operations. And automated operation is a software that gives you that simplicity of cloud. It's at the core of a database as a service. It's both hosting but also automated operations. Those two things together make up a cloud service and that software piece is what we're decoupling from the hosting providers for the first time and allowing any open-source project or ISP brings the simplicity of cloud but in any environment. And that's what the operator is a piece of software that actually goes and implements that. >> So a microservices framework, this fits in pretty nicely. How do you see obviously? >> Microservices, there's all these terms. Microservice is more of an architecture than anything but it's saying look, there's these basic things that every operations team has to go and do. You have to go and install something, you have to upgrade it, you have to back it up, when it crashes in the middle of the night, get it going again. A lot of these things, the best practices for how you do them are all common. There's no ingenuity in it. And for those things, we can now because of Kubernetes write software that just automates it, and this was not possible five years ago. You couldn't write those software. There were things like configuration management systems and stuff like that that would allow companies to build their own custom versions of this. But to build a generic piece of software that knows how to run application like Prometheus or a database or so on. It wasn't possible to write that and that's what the first four or five years of CoreOS was is making it possible, that's why you saw all these mat and new open-source projects being built. But once it was possible it was like let's start leveraging that. You saw the first operator come out about a year ago, and I think it was our ATD operator was the first one, and we started talking about this as a concept. And now we're releasing operator framework which is from all the learnings of building the first couple. We now made a generic, so anybody can go and do it, and as part of Red Hat, we're now bringing it to the whole ISP ecosystem. So the whole plan to make automated operations ubiquitous is still well underway. >> I'd love to extend that conversation though to the operator, the person. >> Right. I think you and your team brought the perspective of the operational excellence right to the table. A lot of cloud has been driven by the role of developer and DevOps but I've always felt like well wait a minute operators the people who use to be known as IT insisted they had a lot to bring to the table too about security and about keeping things running, and about compliance and about all that good stuff. So can you talk a little bit as you see the community emerging, and as you see all these folks here. How do you talk to people who want to understand what their role is going to be with all this automation in keeping the clouds running? >> Computers use to be people too. (laughing) But we're not going to completely automate away everything because there's still parts of this wildly complex system that justifies whole conferences of thousands of people that require a whole lot of human ingenuity. What we're doing is saying let's not like do the part that is the fire drill in the middle of the might that keeps you from making forward progress. The typical role of an operations person today is just fighting fires of mundane things that don't actually add a lot of value to the business. In fact, this guy is difficult because you only get brought up when things are on fire. You never get an praise when things are going well. And so what we want to do is help the operations folks put out those fires like the security updates. Let's just roll those out automatically. The way you do those across all organizations does not need to be special and unique but they're really critical to do right. >> Well it's just automate that stuff away and let the operations team focus on moving the business forward. The parts that require the human spirit to actually go and do, and if we get to a point where a CEO of a company is like, wow, I can not come up with a new vision for this imitative 'cause my operations team are just so fast at influencing them. Then we have to start worrying about operations people's job but I don't see that happening for a very long time. >> And no one is going to be sitting around twiddling their thumbs either. >> Let me just extend that point a little bit. The whole point of operators is to encapsulate human knowledge that ISPs have and bring that in the platform and automate it. So the challenge that we've had is an operations person is required to know a lot about a lot. So the question then really is how can we at least take some of what's already known by people and be able to replicate that and that allows for every one to move forward. I think that's just forward-- >> Well, there's a bigger picture beyond that, so I agree but there is also scale. With cloud, you have scale issues. So with scale automation is a beautiful thing 'cause the fire has also grown exponentially too so you can't be operating like this. Scale matters, super. >> The reason that this stuff was invented at Google initially was not because of Google's high career per second. Is that they were, to build the application they're building required so many servers that you couldn't hire enough operations people without writing software to automate it. So they were forced to custom design the system because they had so many servers to run to build the software that they wanted to build. And other companies are just now getting to that point because every company is going through a digital transformation. They have to have thousands of servers just to run their applications. There's no way you're just going to hire the operations staff to go and do it all by hand. You have to write software to turn the operations people into mech warriors of running servers. You need to wrap them in automation in order to scale that. >> At KubeCon, she made a comment that all those operations folks at Google are software developers. >> Brand engineers. >> Brand engineering, so they're not Ops guys just pushing buttons and provisioning gear and what not. They're actually writing code. You bring up the Google piece, the other piece that we heard at KubeCon. We hear this consistently that this is now a new way to do software development. So when a former Googler went to work for another company, left Google. She went in and she said, "Oh my God, you guys don't do. "You don't use board?" To her, she's like how do you write software? So she was like young and went out in the real world and was like wait a minute, you don't do this? So this is a new model in software development at scale with these new capabilities. >> I think so and I think what's really important is the work we're doing with regards to an ecosystem perspective to help folks. So one of the top things I hear from customers all the time is this sounds fantastic. Everyone's talking about DevOps or microservices or wanting to run Kubernetes at scale. Do I have the skills? Can I keep up with the change that's in place and how do I continue going forward around that? So we announced at Red Hat Summit Managed offerings from let's say Atos and DXC where you've got goals to integrate us helping folks, or companies like Extension T systems. The CEO came and spoke today about the work we're doing with them to help connected cars, and those applications be rolled out quick and fast. I think it's going to take a village to get us to where we want to because the rate of change is so fast around all of these areas and it's not slowing down that we'll have to ensure there's more automation and then there's more enablement that's going on for our customers. >> So some clarity, can you guys comment on your reaction to obviously we've seen OpenStack has done over the years and now with well Containers, now Kubernetes. You seeing at least two ecosystems clearly identified. Application developers, cloud native and then I would call under the hood infrastructure, you got OpenStack. Almost it clarifies where people can actually focus on real problems that the Kubernetes needs. So how has the Container, maturation of Containers with Kubernetes clarified the role of the community? If this continues with automation, you can almost argue that the clarity happens everywhere. Can you comment on how you see that happening? Is it happening or is it just observation that's misguided? >> I think we're getting better with regard to fit for a purpose or fit for use case. All right, so if you start thinking about the earliest days of OpenStack. OpenStack is going to be AWS in a box, and then you realize well that's not a practical way of thinking about what a community can do a build at scale. And so when you start thinking about a Word appropriate use case for this. Now you start betting if you will, a set of scales, you set expectations around how to make that successful. I think we'll go through the same if we haven't already or even going through it with regard to Kubernetes. So not every company in the world can run Managed World call. DYI Kubernetes, don't many companies will start with that. And so the question is how do we get to the point where there's balance around it and then be able to take advantage of the work? For example, companies like Red Hat work for us was doing to help accelerate that path 'cause to the point Alex was trying to make is the value for them being able to keep up with the core release of Kubernetes? And every time a bug shows up to go off and be able to fix and patch it, and watch that or is the value building the next set of applications set on top of platforms. >> That's great, well congratulations guys. Thanks for coming on theCUBE. Appreciate the insight. Congratulations on the three months into Red Hat. Good fit, and enjoy the rest of the show. Thanks for coming on, I appreciate it. >> Thanks. >> Live from Red Hat Summit, it's theCUBE's coverage here of Red Hat and all the innovation going on out in the open. We're here in the middle of, we open the floor with Moscone West with live coverage. Stay with us for more after this short break. (uptempo techno music)

>> Man: Live, from Boston, Massachusetts, it's The Cube, covering Red Hat Summit 2017, brought to you by Red Hat. >> Welcome back to The Cube's coverage of the Red Hat Summit, here in Boston, Massachusetts. I'm you're host Rebecca Knight along with my co-host Stu Miniman. We're joined by Ashesh Badani. He is the Vice President and General Manager of OpenShift here at Red Hat. Thanks so much, Ashesh. >> Thanks for having me on yet again. >> Yes, you are a Cube veteran, so welcome back. We're always happy to talk to you. You're also an OpenShift veteran. You've been there five years, and before the cameras are rolling you were talking about how we really are at a tipping point here with OpenShift, and we're seeing a widespread adoption and embrace of containers. Can you share the context with us. >> Sure, so I think we've spent a fair amount of time in this market talking about how important containers are, the value of containers, DevOps, microservices. I think at this Red Hat Summit, we've spent a fair amount of time trying to ensure that people understand one containers are real, in terms of, you know, adoption level that we're seeing. They're being run in production and at scale. And across a variety of industries, right. So, just at this summit we've had over 30 customers from across the world, across industries like financial services, government, transportation, tech, telco, a variety of different industries talking about how they've been deploying and using containers. At our keynotes we had Macquarie Bank from Australia, Barclay's Bank from the U.K. We had United Health slash OPTUM. All talking about, you know, mission critical applications, how their developers running applications, both new applications, right, microservice-style applications, but also existing legacy applications on the OpenShift platform. >> Ashesh, I've been watching this for a few years, we've talked to you many times, we talked about containers. Maybe I'm oversimplifying it but let me know. It feels like OpenShift is your delivery mechanism to take some things that might be hard if I tried to do them myself and made it a lot simpler. Kind of give like Red Hat did for Linux, I have containers, I have Kubernetes, I have OpenStack, and all three of those I didn't hear a ton at the show, I heard a lot about OpenShift and the OpenShift family because underneath OpenShift are those pieces. Am I gettin' it right, or there's more nuance you need-- >> Great observation, great observation, yeah, and we're seeing that from our customers, too. So, when they're making strategic choice, they're talking about, you know, how can I find the container platform to run at scale. When they make their choice, all they're thinking about well what's the existing, you know, development tools I've got. Can it integrate with the ones that I have in place. What's the underlying infrastructure they can run on. OpenStack of course is a great one, right. We have many customers, Santander, BBVA Bank are just two examples of those, but then also, can I run the OpenShift structure in a hybrid cloud, or I guess what we're calling a multi-cloud world now. Amazon, Google, Asher, and so on. But actually interestingly enough we made some announcements with Amazon as well at the show with regard to making sure some AWS service are able to be integrated into the OpenShare platform. So, we find customers today finding a lot of value in the flexibility of the deployment platforms they have in place, integration with various developer tools. I think my colleague Harry Mower was on earlier talking about OpenShift.io, again, you know, super interesting, super exciting now it's been from our perspective with regard to giving developers more choice. And in addition to that, you know, the other parts of the portfolio, right, going to your point, earlier. We're trying to attach that increasingly as options for customers around OpenShift. Storage is a great example. So we announced some work we've doing with regard to container storage with our classified system for OpenShift. >> So you're talking about simplification and that does seem to be a real theme here. Once you've solved that problem, what's next, what are some of the other customer issues that you need to resolve and help them overcome and make their lives easier? >> Yeah, so, the rate of change in technology, as you well know, you've been following this now for a while is just dramatic, right. I think it's probably faster than we've ever seen in a long, long time. I was having a conversation with a large franchise customer with regard to, you know, just as we feel like, you know, we're getting people to adopt Hadoop, everyone seems to have moved on to Spark. And now we're on Spark and people are talking about, oh, maybe Flink is next. Now that we get to Flink, now they're saying AI and ML is next. It's just like, well, where does this stop, right. So I don't think it stops. The question is, you know, at what point of time do you sort of jump in. Embrace the change, right, that's sort of what Devops all about right, continuous change, you know, embrace it, be able to evolve with it, fail fast, pick yourself up, and then have the organization be in this sort of continuous learning, this kaizen environment. >> Yeah, Ashesh, from day one of the keynote talked about the platforms and you know Red Hat Enterprise Linux was kind of the first big platform that can live a lot of environments. Seems OpenShift is a second platform, and the scope of it seems to be growing. We talked to Harry about the OpenShift.io. He alluded to the fact that we might see expansion into the family there. What is, you said that innovation, and you know change keeps growing. What's the boundaries of what OpenShift's going to cover. Where do you see it today and where's the vision go moving forward? >> Yeah, so (laughs) great question, a double-edged sword right. Because on the one hand of course we want to make sure OpenShift is a foundation for doing a lot of stuff. But then there's also the Linux philosophy. Do one thing, do it well, right. And so there's always this temptation with regard to keeping on wanting to take new things on, right, I mean for a long time people have said, hey, why aren't we in the database business? You know, why aren't you doing more? Well the question is, you know, how many things can we do well? Because anything we commit to, as you well know, Red Hat will invest significant amount of engineering effort upstream in the community to help drive it forward, right. We've done that on Linux container front. We're doing that in Kubernetes. Obviously we do that with RHEL, we've done that Jboss technologies. So, we're very, very cognizant of making sure that we provide an environment and basically an ecosystem around us that can grow and be able to attach the momentum we have in place. As a result of that we announced the container health index at this conference, right. Mostly because, you know, there's just no way for one company to provide all the services that are possible, right. So to be able to grade applications that come in, be able to sort of give customers confidence that, you know, these can be certified and work in our environment, and then be able to kind of expand out that ecosystem is going to be really important going forward. >> Yeah, Ashesh that's an interesting one, the container health index. I'm going to play with the term there. What's the health of the container industry there. We at The Cube at DockerCon a couple weeks ago had a couple of Red Hatters on the program. There was kind of a reshuffling, you know. The Moby project, open source, we've got Docker CE, Docker EE, Docker actually referenced, you know, Fedora and CentOS and RHEL as you know, something that they did similar to but, what's your take on the announcements there? >> Sure, sure, I'll probably butcher this quote tremendously, but it was Mark Twain or someone said, "The rumors of my whatever are greatly exaggerated," so. You know, there's always, you know, some amount of change that sort of happens, especially with new technology, and you've got so many players sort of jumping in, right. I mean of course there's Docker Inc. There's Red Hat but there's, you know, Google and IBM and Microsoft and Amazon, and there's a lot of companies, right, that all look at this as a way of advancing the number of workloads that come onto their platforms. You know, we've seen some of the challenges, if you will, that Docker Inc. has been facing as well as the great work it's been doing to help drive the community forward, right. Those are both interesting things. And they've got a business to run. We've announced, we've seen the changes announced with regard to some of the renaming and Moby, and I think there's still a lot more detail that need to be fleshed out. And so I, we're going to wait for the dust to settle. I think we want to make sure our customers are confident. We've had this conversation with many customers that whatever direction that, you know, we go in, we will continue supporting that technology. We will stand behind it. We will make sure we're putting upstream engineers to help drive the community that will provide the greatest value for customers. >> Ashesh, you're one of the judges for the Innovation Awards here. Can you tell us a little bit more about the secret sauce that you're looking for. First of all, how you choose these winners, and what it is you're looking for. >> Yeah, so I'm really proud of the work I do to help support the judging of the Innovation Awards. You know, I think it's a fantastic thing we do to recognize, I was telling Stu earlier, you know we could probably have done a dozen more awards, right, the entries that are coming in are just fantastic. We try to change up the categories a little bit every year to kind of match with the changes in industry, like for example, you know, DevOps, Macquarie Bank was a great example of enterprise transformation. You know, they had this great line in their keynote right, where their ambition I think really impressed a lot of the judges with regard to, hey our competition is not necessarily the other financial service companies, it's the last app you opened. That's a remarkable thing, right. Especially for an existing traditional financial services company, you see. So, I think what we look for is scope, ambition, and vision, but also how you're executing against it, and what demonstrable results do you have for that. And so, you probably saw that, as, you know, we talked about all the various innovation awards we gave, right, whether it's Macquarie Bank or, you know, British Columbia Empower Individuals, right, so the whole notion of celebrating the impact of individual, and create an exchange for them to engage with the wider civic body. That's really important for us. >> Ashesh, one of the innovation award-winners OPTUM we talked to, they're an OpenShift customer. They're really excited with the AWS announcement. We've been chewing on it, talking to a lot of people. We think it's the most significant news coming out of the show. As you said, there's certain details that need to bake out when we look at some of these things. By the time we get to AWS Reinvent we'll probably understand a little bit some of the pricing and, you know, some of the other pieces, and it'll be there, but, you know, bring us from your viewpoint, from an OpenShift standpoint what this means to kind of an extension of the product line and your customers. >> Yeah, so, we've got, at least at this show you had over 30 customers presenting about their use of OpenShift. And we typically find them deploying OpenShift in a variety of different environments including AWS. So for example Swiss Rail, right, obviously out of Switzerland, is taking advantage of, you know, running it in their own data center, taking advantage of AWS as well. When they're doing that they want to make sure that they can consume services from Amazon. Just as if they were running it on Amazon, right. They like the container platform that OpenShift provides, and they like the abstraction level that it puts in place. Of course they have different choices, right. They can choose to run it on OpenStack, they can choose to run OpenShift in some other public cloud provider, yet there are many services that Amazon's releasing that are extremely interesting and value that they provide to their customers. By being able to have relationship with Amazon, and have an almost native experience of those services with regard to OpenShift, regardless of the underlying infrastructure OpenShift runs, it is a very powerful value proposition, definitely for our customers. It's a great one for Amazon because it allows for their services to be used across a multitude of environments. And we feel good about that because we're creating value for our customers, and of course not precluding them from using other services as well. >> I'm wondering if you could shed a little light on the financials, and how you think about things. I mean, you made this great point about the banks saying our competition is the last app you opened. How do you think, with OpenShift, which is free, how do you view your competition, and how do you think about it in terms of the way companies are making their decisions about where they're putting their money in IT investments. >> Right, so OpenShift isn't free, so I'll just make sure-- (all laugh) >> OpenShift.io >> OpenShift.io, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, yes. >> So, consider OpenShift.io as a great gateway into the OpenShift experience, right. It's a cloud-based web environment allows you to develop in browsers, allows you some collaboration with other developers. There's actually a really cool part of the tech, I don't know if Harry talked about right, which is, we almost have, almost machine-learning aspect part of it, you know, that's in play with regard to, you know, if this is the code you're using, here are what other users are doing with it, making recommendations, and so on, so it's a really modern integrated, you know, development environment that we're sort of introducing. That of course doesn't mean that customers can't use existing ones that they have in place. So this is just giving customers more choice. By doing that, we're basically expanding the span of options the customers have. We introduced something called OpenShift Application Runtimes also at this conference, which is supporting existing Java languages or tools or frameworks, right, whether it's Jboss, EAP, Vortex, WildFly, Spring Boot, but also newer ones like No-JavaScript, right, so again, in the spirit of, let's give you choices, let's have you sort of use what you most want to use, and then from our perspective, right, you know, we will create value when it's been deployed at scale. >> Ashesh, before the event at the beginning of it you guys run something called OpenShift Commons. There's some deep education and a lot of it very interactive. I'm curious if there's anything that's kind of surprised you or interesting nuggets that you got from the users. Either stuff that they were further ahead or further behind, or just something that's grabbin' their attention that you could share with our users. >> Well, what I've been really happy to see with the OpenShift Commons is, well, this is a couple things, right. One is we try our best to make it literally a community event, right, so we call it OpenShift Commons but it is a community event. So in the past and even now, we have providers of technologies, even though they might compete with Red Hat and OpenShift available to talk to. Customers, users of our technology, right, so we want it to be an open, welcoming environment for various providers. Second, we're seeing more and more customers wanting to come out and share their experiences, right. So at this OpenShift Commons, I think we had maybe over 10 customers present on, you know, how they were using OpenShift, and sharing with other customers. Number three, this really attracts other customers. I just had a large financial services institution come and say, you know, we attended OpenShift Commons for the first time. This is a fantastic community. How can we become a part of this? You know, get us involved. There's no cost to join, right, it's free and open, and now our numbers are pretty significant. And then when that's in place, right, the ecosystem forms around it. Now, so we have several different ISVs, global system integrators who are all sort of, you know, coalescing, to provide additional services. >> Ashesh, thanks so much for your time, we appreciate it. It's always a pleasure to have you on the program. >> Ashesh: Thanks again, see you all next time. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for Stu Miniman. There'll be more from the Red Hat Summit after this. (relaxed digital beats)

>> From The Cube studios in Palo Alto, in Boston, bringing you data driven insights from the cube and ETR. This is breaking analysis with Dave Vellante. >> Last year, we noted in a breaking analysis that the cloud ecosystem is innovating beyond the idea or notion of multi-cloud. We've said for years that multi-cloud is really not a strategy but rather a symptom of multi-vendor. And we coined this term supercloud to describe an abstraction layer that lives above the hyperscale infrastructure that hides the underlying complexities, the APIs, and the primitives of each of the respective clouds. It interconnects whether it's On-Prem, AWS, Azure, Google, stretching out to the edge and creates a value layer on top of that. So our vision is that supercloud is more than running an individual service in cloud native mode within an individual individual cloud rather it's this new layer that builds on top of the hyperscalers. And does things irrespective of location adds value and we'll get into that in more detail. Now it turns out that we weren't the only ones thinking about this, not surprisingly, the majority of the technology ecosystem has been working towards this vision in various forms, including some examples that actually don't try to hide the underlying primitives. And we'll talk about that, but give a consistent experience across the DevSecOps tool chain. Hello, and welcome to this week's Wikibon, Cube insights powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis, we're going to share some recent examples and direct quotes about supercloud from the many Cube guests that we've had on over the last several weeks and months. And we've been trying to test this concept of supercloud. Is it technically feasible? Is it business rational? Is there business case for it? And we'll also share some recent ETR data to put this into context with some of the players that we think are going after this opportunity and where they are in their supercloud build out. And as you can see I'm not in the studio, everybody's got COVID so the studios shut down temporarily but breaking analysis continues. So here we go. Now, first thing is we uncovered an article from earlier this year by Lori MacVittie, is entitled, Supercloud: The 22 Answer to Multi-Cloud Challenges. What a great title. Of course we love it. Now, what really interested us here is not just the title, but the notion that it really doesn't matter what it's called, who cares? Supercloud, distributed cloud, someone even called it Metacloud recently, and we'll get into that. But Lori is a technologist. She's a developer by background. She works at F-Five and she's partial to the supercloud definition that was put forth by Cornell. You can see it here. That's a cloud architecture that enables application migration as a service across different availability zones or cloud providers, et cetera. And that the supercloud provides interfaces to allocate, migrate and terminate resources... And can span all major public cloud providers as well as private clouds. Now, of course, we would take that as well to the edge. So sure. That sounds about right and provides further confirmation that something new is really happening out there. And that was our initial premise when we put this fourth last year. Now we want to dig deeper and hear from the many Cube guests that we've interviewed recently probing about this topic. We're going to start with Chuck Whitten. He's Dell's new Co-COO and most likely part of the Dell succession plan, many years down the road hopefully. He coined the phrase multi-cloud by default versus multi-cloud by design. And he provides a really good business perspective. He's not a deep technologist. We're going to hear from Chuck a couple of times today including one where John Furrier asks him about leveraging hyperscale CapEx. That's an important concept that's fundamental to supercloud. Now, Ashesh Badani heads products at Red Hat and he talks about what he calls Metacloud. Again, it doesn't matter to us what you call it but it's the ecosystem gathering and innovating and we're going to get his perspective. Now we have a couple of clips from Danny Allan. He is the CTO of Veeam. He's a deep technologist and super into the weeds, which we love. And he talks about how Veeam abstracts the cloud layer. Again, a concept that's fundamental to supercloud and he describes what a supercloud is to him. And we also bring with Danny the edge discussion to the conversation. Now the bottom line from Danny is we want to know is supercloud technically feasible? And is it a thing? And then we have Jeff Clarke. Jeff Clark is the Co-COO and Vice Chairman of Dell super experienced individual. He lays out his vision of supercloud and what John Furrier calls a business operating system. You're going to hear from John a couple times. And he, Jeff Clark has a dropped the mic moment, where he says, if we can do this X, we'll describe what X is, it's game over. Okay. So of course we wanted to then go to HPE, one of Dell's biggest competitors and Patrick Osborne is the vice president of the storage business unit at Hewlett Packet Enterprise. And so given Jeff Clarke's game over strategy, we want to understand how HPE sees supercloud. And the bottom line, according to Patrick Osborne is that it's real. So you'll hear from him. And now Raghu Raghuram is the CEO of VMware. He threw a curve ball at this supercloud concept. And he flat out says, no, we don't want to hide the underlying primitives. We want to give developers access to those. We want to create a consistent developer experience in that DevsSecOps tool chain and Kubernetes runtime environments, and connect all the elements in the application development stack. So that's a really interesting perspective that Raghu brings. And then we end on Itzik Reich. Itzik is a technologist and a technical team leader who's worked as a go between customers and product developers for a number of years. And we asked Itzik, is supercloud technically feasible and will it be a reality? So let's hear from these experts and you can decide for yourselves how real supercloud is today and where it is, run the sizzle >> Operative phrase is multi-cloud by default that's kind of the buzz from your keynote. What do you mean by that? >> Well, look, customers have woken up with multiple clouds, multiple public clouds, On-Premise clouds increasingly as the edge becomes much more a reality for customers clouds at the edge. And so that's what we mean by multi-cloud by default. It's not yet been designed strategically. I think our argument yesterday was, it can be and it should be. It is a very logical place for architecture to land because ultimately customers want the innovation across all of the hyperscale public clouds. They will see workloads and use cases where they want to maintain an On-Premise cloud, On-Premise clouds are not going away, I mentioned edge clouds, so it should be strategic. It's just not today. It doesn't work particularly well today. So when we say multi-cloud by default we mean that's the state of the world today. Our goal is to bring multi-cloud by design as you heard. >> Really great question, actually, since you and I talked, Dave, I've been spending some time noodling just over that. And you're right. There's probably some terminology, something that will get developed either by us or in collaboration with the industry. Where we sort of almost have the next almost like a Metacloud that we're working our way towards. >> So we manage both the snapshots and we convert it into the Veeam portable data format. And here's where the supercloud comes into play. Because if I can convert it into the Veeam portable data format, I can move that OS anywhere. I can move it from physical to virtual, to cloud, to another cloud, back to virtual, I can put it back on physical if I want to. It actually abstracts the cloud layer. There are things that we do when we go between cloud some use BIOS, some use UEFI, but we have the data in backup format, not snapshot format, that's theirs, but we have it in backup format that we can move around and abstract workloads across all of the infrastructure. >> And your catalog is control in control of that. Is that right? Am I thinking about that the right way? >> Yeah it is, 100%. And you know what's interesting about our catalog, Dave, the catalog is inside the backup. Yes. So here's, what's interesting about the edge, two things, on the edge you don't want to have any state, if you can help it. And so containers help with that You can have stateless environments, some persistent data storage But we not not only provide the portability in operating systems, we also do this for containers. And that's true. If you go to the cloud and you're using say EKS with relational database services RDS for the persistent data later, we can pick that up and move it to GKE or move it to OpenShift On-Premises. And so that's why I call this the supercloud, we have all of this data. Actually, I think you termed the term supercloud. >> Yeah. But thank you for... I mean, I'm looking for a confirmation from a technologist that it's technically feasible. >> It is technically feasible and you can do it today. >> You said also technology and business models are tied together and enabler. If you believe that then you have to believe that it's a business operating system that they want. They want to leverage whatever they can. And at the end of the day, they have to differentiate what they do. >> Well, that's exactly right. If I take that in what Dave was saying and I summarize it the following way, if we can take these cloud assets and capabilities, combine them in an orchestrated way to deliver a distributed platform, game over. >> We have a number of platforms that are providing whether it's compute or networking or storage, running those workloads that they plum up into the cloud they have an operational experience in the cloud and they now they have data services that are running in the cloud for us in GreenLake. So it's a reality, we have a number of platforms that support that. We're going to have a a set of big announcements coming up at HPE Discover. So we led with Electra and we have a block service. We have VM backup as a service and DR on top of that. So that's something that we're providing today. GreenLake has over, I think it's actually over 60 services right now that we're providing in the GreenLake platform itself. Everything from security, single sign on, customer IDs, everything. So it's real. We have the proofpoint for it. >> Yeah. So I want to clarify something that you said because this tends to be very commonly confused by customers. I use the word abstraction. And usually when people think of abstraction, they think it hides capabilities of the cloud providers. That's not what we are trying to do. In fact, that's the last thing we are trying to do. What we are trying to do is to provide a consistent developer experience regardless of where you want to build your application. So that you can use the cloud provider services if that's what you want to use. But the DevSecOp tool chain, the runtime environment which turns out to be Kubernetes and how you control the Kubernetes environment, how do you manage and secure and connect all of these things. Those are the places where we are adding the value. And so really the VMware value proposition is you can build on the cloud of your choice but providing these consistent elements, number one, you can make better use of us, your scarce developer or operator resources and expertise. And number two, you can move faster. And number three, you can just spend less as a result of this. So that's really what we are trying to do. We are not... So I just wanted to clarify the word abstraction. In terms of where are we? We are still, I would say, in the early stages. So if you look at what customers are trying to do, they're trying to build these greenfield applications. And there is an entire ecosystem emerging around Kubernetes. There is still, Kubernetes is not a developer platform. The developer experience on top of Kubernetes is highly inconsistent. And so those are some of the areas where we are introducing new innovations with our Tanzu Application Platform. And then if you take enterprise applications, what does it take to have enterprise applications running all the time be entirely secure, et cetera. >> Well, look, the multi-cloud by default today are isolated clouds. They don't work together. Your data is siloed. It's locked up and it is expensive to move and make sense of it. So I think the word you and I were batting around before, this is an interconnected tissue. That's what the world needs. They need the clouds to work together as a single platform. That's the problem that we're trying to solve. And you saw it in some of our announcements here that we're starting to make steps on that journey to make multi-cloud work together much simpler. >> It's interesting, you mentioned the hyperscalers and all that CapEx investments. Why wouldn't you want to take advantage of a cloud and build on the CapEx and then ultimately have the solutions machine learning as one area. You see some specialization with the clouds. But you start to see the rise of superclouds, Dave calls them, and that's where you can innovate on a cloud then go to the multiple clouds. Snowflakes is one, we see a lot of examples of supercloud... >> Project Alpine was another one. I mean, it's early, but it's its clearly where you're going. The technology is just starting to come around. I mean it's real. >> Yeah. I mean, why wouldn't you want to take advantage of all of the cloud innovation out there? >> Is that something that's, that supercloud idea is a reality from a technologist perspective. >> I think it is. So for example Katie Gordon, which I believe you've interviewed earlier this week, was demonstrating the Kubernetes data mobility aspect which is another project. That's exactly part of the it's rationale, the rationale of customers being able to move some of their Kubernetes workloads to the cloud and back and between different clouds. Why are we doing? Because customers wants to have the ability to move between different cloud providers, using a common API that will be able to orchestrate all of those things with a self-service that may be offered via the APEX console itself. So it's all around enabling developers and meeting them where they are today and also meeting them into tomorrow's world where they actually may have changed their mind to do those things. So yes we are walking on all of those different aspects. >> Okay. Let's take a quick look at some of the ETR data. This is an X-Y graph. You've seen it a number of times on breaking analysis, it plots the net score or spending momentum on the Y-axis and overlap or pervasiveness in the ETR dataset on the X-axis, used to be called market share. I think that term was off putting to some people, but anyway it's an indicator of presence in the dataset. Now that red dotted line that's rarefied air where anything above that line is considered highly elevated. Now you can see we've plotted Azure and AWS in the upper right. GCP is in there and Kubernetes. We've done that as reference points. They're not necessarily building supercloud platforms. We'll see if they ever want to do so. And Kubernetes of course not a company, but we put 'em in there for context. And we've cherry picked a few players that we believe are building out or are important for supercloud build out. Let's start with Snowflake. We've talked a lot about this company. You can see they're highly elevated on the vertical axis. We see the data cloud as a supercloud in the making. You've got pure storage in there. They made the public, the early part of its supercloud journey at Accelerate 2019 when it unveiled a hybrid block storage service inside of AWS, it connects its On-Prem to AWS and creates that singular experience for pure customers. We see Hashi, HashiCorp as an enabling infrastructure, as code. So they're enabling infrastructure as code across different clouds and different locations. You see Nutanix. They're embarking on their multi-cloud strategy but it's doing so in a way that we think is supercloud, like now. Now Veeam, we were just at VeeamON. And this company has tied Dell for the number one revenue player in data protection. That's according to IDC. And we don't think it won't be long before it holds that position alone at the top as it's growing faster than in Dell in the space. We'll see, Dell is kind of waking up a little bit and putting more resource on that. But Veeam, they're a pure play vendor in data protection. And you heard their CTO, Danny Allan's view on Supercloud, they're doing it today. And we heard extensive comments as well from Dell that's clearly where they're headed, project Alpine was an early example from Dell technologies world of Supercloud in our view. And HPE with GreenLake. Finally beginning to talk about that cross cloud experience. I think it in initially HPE has been more focused on the private cloud, we'll continue to probe. We'll be at HPE discover later on the spring, actually end of June. And we'll continue to probe to see what HPE is doing specifically with GreenLake. Now, finally, Cisco, we put them on the chart. We don't have direct quotes from recent shows and events but this data really shows you the size of Cisco's footprint within the ETR data set that's on the X-axis. Now the cut of this ETR data includes all sectors across the ETR taxonomy which is not something that we commonly show but you can see the magnitude of Cisco's presence. It's impressive. Now, they had better, Cisco that is, had better be building out a supercloud in our view or they're going to be left behind. And I'm quite certain that they're actually going to do so. So we have a lot of evidence that we're putting forth here and seeing in the marketplace what we said last year, the ecosystem is take taking shape, supercloud is forming and becoming a thing. And really in our view, is the future of cloud. But there are always risks to these predictive scenarios and we want to acknowledge those. So first, look, we could end up with a bunch of bespoke superclouds. Now one supercloud is better than three separate cloud native services that do fundamentally the same thing from the same vendor. One for AWS, one for GCP and one for Azure. So maybe that's not all that bad. But to point number two, we hope there evolves a set of open standards for self-service infrastructure, federated governance, and data sharing that will evolve as a horizontal layer versus a set of proprietary vendor specific tools. Now, maybe a company like Veeam will provide that as a data management layer or some of Veeam's competitors or maybe it'll emerge again as open source. As well, and this next point, we see the potential for edge disruptions, changing the economics of the data center. Edge in fact could evolve on its own, independent of the cloud. In fact, David Floria sees the edge somewhat differently from Danny Allan. Floria says he sees a requirement for distributed stateful environments that are ephemeral where recovery is built in. And I said, David, stateful? Ephemeral? Stateful ephemeral? Isn't that an oxymoron? And he responded that, look, if it's not ephemeral the costs are going to be prohibitive. He said the biggest mistake the companies could make is thinking that the edge is simply an extension of their current cloud strategies. We're seeing that a lot. Dell largely talks about the edge as retail. Now, and Telco is a little bit different, but back to Floria's comments, he feels companies have to completely reimagine an integrated file and recovery system which is much more data efficient. And he believes that the technology will evolve with massive volumes and eventually seep into enterprise cloud and distributed data centers with better economics. In other words, as David Michelle recently wrote, we're about 15 years into the most recent cloud cycle and history shows that every 15 years or so, something new comes along that is a blind spot and highly disruptive to existing leaders. So number four here is really important. Remember, in 2007 before AWS introduced the modern cloud, IBM outpost, sorry, IBM outspent Amazon and Google and RND and CapEx and was really comparable to Microsoft. But instead of inventing cloud, IBM spent hundreds of billions of dollars on stock buybacks and dividends. And so our view is that innovation rewards leaders. And while it's not without risks, it's what powers the technology industry it always has and likely always will. So we'll be watching that very closely, how companies choose to spend their free cash flow. Okay. That's it for now. Thanks for watching this episode of The Cube Insights, powered by ETR. Thanks to Stephanie Chan who does some of the background research? Alex Morrison is on production and is going to compile all this stuff. Thank you, Alex. We're all remote this week. Kristen Nicole and Cheryl Knight do Cube distribution and social distribution and get the word out, so thank you. Robert Hof is our editor in chief. Don't forget the checkout etr.ai for all the survey action. Remember I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com and you can check out all the breaking analysis podcasts. All you can do is search breaking analysis podcast so you can pop in the headphones and listen while you're on a walk. You can email me at david.vellante@siliconangle.com. If you want to get in touch or DM me at DVellante, you can always hit me up into a comment on our LinkedIn posts. This is Dave Vellante. Thank you for watching this episode of break analysis, stay safe, be well and we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

(smooth upbeat music) >> Hello, everybody, John Walls here. Welcome to "theCUBE," in our continuing coverage of Ansible Fest 2021. We now welcome onto "theCUBE," three representatives from Red Hat. Joining us is Ashesh Badani. Who's the Senior Vice President of Products at Red Hat. Ashesh, thank you for joining us today. >> Thanks for having me, John. >> You bet. Also with us Stefanie Chiras, who is the Senior Vice President of the Platforms Business Group also at Red Hat. And Stefanie, how are you doing? >> Good, thanks, it's great to be here with you, John. >> Excellent, thanks for joining us. And last, but certainly not least, Joe Fitzgerald, who is the Vice President and General Manager of the Ansible Business Unit at Red Hat. Joe, good to see you today, thanks for being with us. >> Good to see you again John, thanks for having us. >> It's like, like the big three at Red Hat. I'm looking forward to this. Stefanie, let's just jump in with you and let's talk about what's going on in terms of automation in the hybrid cloud environment these days. A lot of people making that push, making their way in that direction. Everybody trying to drive more value out of the hybrid cloud environment. How is automation making that happen? How's it making it work? >> We have been focused at Red Hat for a number of years now on the value of open hybrid cloud. We really believe in the value of being able to give your applications flexibility, to use the best technology, where you want it, how you need it, and pulling all of that together. But core to that value proposition is making sure that it is consistent, it is secure and it is able to scale. And that's really where automation has become a core space. So as we continue to work our portfolio and our ecosystems and our partnerships to make sure that that open hybrid cloud has accessibility to everything that's new and relevant in this changing market we're in, the automation space that Ansible drives is really about making sure that it can be done in a way that is predictable. And that is really essential as you start to move your workloads around and start to leverage the diversity that an open hybrid cloud can deliver. >> When you're bringing this to a client, and Joe, perhaps you can weigh in on this as well. I would assume that as you're talking about automation, there's probably a lot of, successful head-nodding this way, but also some kind of this way too. There's a little bit of fear, right? And maybe just, they have these legacy systems, there's maybe a little distrust, I don't want to give away control, all these things. So how do you all answer those kinds of concerns when you're talking to the client about this great value that you can drive, but you got to get them there, right? You have to bring them along a bit. >> It's a great question, John, and look, everybody wants to get the hybrid cloud, as Stefanie mentioned. That journey is a little complicated. And if you had silos and challenges before you went to a hybrid cloud, you're going to have more when you got there. We work with a lot of customers, and what we see is this sort of shift from, I would call it low-level task automation to much more of a strategic focus on automation, but there's also the psychology of automation. One of the analysts recently did some research on that. And imagine just getting in your car and letting the car drive you down the street to work. People are still not quite comfortable with that level of automation, they sort of want to be able to trust, but verify, and maybe have their hands near the wheel. You couldn't take the wheel away from them. We see the same thing with automation. They need automation and a lot automation, or they need to be able to verify what it is doing, what they do, what it's going to do. And once they build that confidence, then they tend to do it at scale. And we're working with a lot of customers in that area. >> Joe, you're talking about a self-driving car, that'll never work, right? (laughs) You us bring an interesting point though. Again, I get that kind of surrendering control a little bit and Ashesh, I would assume in the product development world, that's very much your focus, right? You're looking for products that people, not only can use, but they're also comfortable with. That they can accept and they can integrate, and there's buy-in, not only on the engineering level, but also on the executive level. So maybe walk us through that product development, staging or phases, however you want to put it, that you go through in terms of developing products that you think people, not only need, but they'll also accept. >> I think that's absolutely right. You know, I think both Stefanie and Joe, led us off here. I talked about hybrid cloud and Joe, started talking about moving automation forward and getting people comfortable. I think a lot of this is, meeting customers where they are and then helping them get on the journey, right? So we're seeing that today, right? So traditional configuration management on premise, but at the same time, starting to think about, how do we take them out into the cloud, bringing greater automation to bear there. But so that's true for us across our existing customer base, as well as the new customers that we see out there. So doing that in a way that Joe talked about, right? Ensuring the trust, but verify is in play, is critical. And then there's another area which I'm sure we'll talk a little bit more about, right? Is ensuring that security implications are taken into account as we go through it. >> Well, let's just jump into security, that's one of the many considerations these days. About ensuring that you have the secure operation, you're doing some very complex tasks here, right? And you're blending multi-vendor environments and multi-domain environments. I mean you've got a lot, you're juggling a lot. So I guess to that extent, how much of a consideration is security and those multiple factors today, for you. And again, I don't know which one of the three of you might want to jump on this, but I would assume, this is a high priority, if not the highest priority, because of the headlines that security and those challenges are garnering these days. >> Well, there's the general security question and answer, right? So this is the whole, shift-left DevSecOps, sort of security concerns, but I think specific to this audience, perhaps I can turn over to Joe to talk a little bit about how Ansible has been playing in the security domain. >> Now, it's a great way to start, Ashesh. People are trying to shift left, which means move, sort of security earlier on in the process where people are thinking about it and development process, right? So we've worked with a lot of customers who were trying to do DevSecOps, right? And to provide security, automation capabilities during application build and deployment. Then on the operational side, you have this ongoing issue of some vulnerability gets identified, how fast can I secure my environment, right? There's a whole new area of security, orchestration, automation, or remediation that's involved, and the challenge people have is just like with networking or other areas, they've got dozens in some cases, hundreds of different systems across their enterprise that they have to integrate with, in order to be able to close a vulnerability, whether it's deploying a patch or closing a port, or changing firewall configuration, this is really complicated and they're being measured by, okay, there's this vulnerability, how fast can we get secure? And that comes down to automation, it has to. >> Now, Joe, you mentioned customers, if you would maybe elaborate a little bit about the customers that we've been hearing from on the stage, the virtual stage, if you will, at Ansible Fest this year and maybe summarize for our audience, what you're hearing from those customers, and some of those stories when we're talking about the actual use of the platform. >> Yeah, so Ansible Fest is our annual, automation event, right? For Ansible users. And I think it's really important to hear from the customers. We're vendors, we can tell you anything you want and try and get you to believe it. Customers they're actually doing stuff, right? And so, at Ansible Fest, we've got a great mix of customers that are really pushing the envelope. I'll give you one example, JP Morgan Chase. They're talking about how in their environment with focus over the past couple of years, they've now gotten to a level of maturity with automation, where they have over 50,000 people that are using Ansible automation. They've got a community of practice where they've got people in over twenty-two countries, right? That are sharing over 10,000 playbooks, right? I mean, they've taken automation strategically and embraced it and scaled it out at a level that most other organizations are envious of, right? Another one, and I'm not going to go through the list, but another one I'll mention is Discover, which sort of stepped back and looked at automation strategically and said, we need to elevate this to a strategic area for the company. And they started looking at across all different areas, not just IT automation, business process automation, on their other practices internally. And they're doing a presentation on how to basically analyze where you are today and how to take your automation initiatives forward in a strategic way. Those are usually important to other organizations that maybe aren't as far along or aren't on a scale of that motivation. >> Yeah, so Stefanie, I see you nodding your head and you're talking about, when Joe was just talking about assessment, right? You have to kind of see where are we, how mature are we on our journey right now? So maybe if you could elaborate on that a little bit, and some of the key considerations that you're seeing from businesses, from clients and potential clients, in terms of the kind of thought process they're going through on their journey, on their evolution. >> I think there's a lot of sort of values that customers are looking for when they're on their automation journey. I think efficiency is clearly one. I think one that ties back to the security discussion that we talked about. And I use the term consistency, but it's really about predictability. And I think I have a lot of conversations with customers that if they know that it's consistently deployed, particularly as we move out and are working with customers at the edge, how do they know that it's done the same way every time and that it's predictable? There's a ton of security and confidence built into that. And I think coming back to Joe's point, it is a journey providing transparency and visibility is step one, then taking action on that is then step two. And I think as we look at the customers who are on this automation journey, it's them understanding what's the value they're looking for? Are they looking for consistency in the deployments? Are they looking for efficiency across their deployments? Are they looking for ways to quickly migrate between areas in the open hybrid cloud? What is the value they're looking for? And then they look at how do they start to build in confidence in how they deliver that. And I think it starts with transparency. The next step is starting to move into taking action, and this is a space where Joe and the whole team, along with the community have really focused on pulling together things like collections, right? Playbooks that folks can count on and deploy. We've looked within the portfolio, we're leveraging the capabilities of this type of automation into our products itself with Red Hat enterprise Linux, we've introduced systems roles. And we're seeing a lot of by pulling in that Ansible capability directly into the product, it provides consistency of how it gets deployed and that delivers a ton of confidence to customers. >> So, Ashesh I mean, Stefanie was talking about, the customers and obviously developing, I guess, cultural acceptance and political acceptance, within the ranks there. Where are we headed here, past what know now in terms of the traditional applications and traditional automations and whatever. Kind of where is this going, if you would give me your crystal ball a bit about automation and what's going to happen here in the next 12-18 months. >> So what I'm going to do, John, is try to marry two ideas. So we talked about hybrid cloud, right? Stefanie started talking about joining a hybrid cloud. I'm going to marry automation with containers, right? On this journey of hybrid cloud, right? And give you two examples, both some successful progress we've been making on that front, right? Number one, especially for the group here, right? Check out the Ansible collection for Kubernetes, it's been updated for Python Three, of course, with the end-of-life for Python Two, but more important, right? It's the focus on improving performance for large automation tasks, right? Huge area where Ansible shines, then taking advantage of turbo mode, where instead of the default being a single connection to a Culebra API, for every request that's out there with turbo mode turned on, the API connection gets reused significantly and obviously improving performance. Huge other set of enhancements as well, right? So I think that's an interesting area for the Ansible community to leverage and obviously to grow. And the second one that I wanted to call out was just kind of the, again, back to this sort of your notion of the marriage of automation with containers, right? Is the work that's going on, on the front of the integration, the tight integration between Ansible as well as Red Hat's, advanced cluster management, right? Which is helping to manage Kubernetes clusters at scale. So now Red Hat's ACM technology can help our monthly trigger Ansible playbooks, upon key lifecycle actions that have happened. And so taking advantage of technologies like operators, again, core Kubernetes construct for the hybrid cloud environment. This integration between advanced cluster management and Ansible, allows for much more efficient execution of tasks, right? So I think that's really powerful. So wrapping that up, right? This world of hybrid cloud really can be brought together by just a tighter integration between working Ansible as well as the work that's going on on the container plant. >> Great, well, thank you. Ashesh, Stefanie, Joe, thank you all for sharing the time here. Part of our Ansible Fest coverage here, enjoy the conversation and continuous success at Red Hat. Thank you for the time today. >> Thank you so much John. >> Thank you. >> You bet. I'm joined here by three executives at Red Hat, talking about our Ansible Fest 2021 coverage. I'm John Walls, and you're watching "theCUBE." (bright music)

>> Narrator: Live, from Boston, Massachusetts. It's theCUBE, covering Red Hat Summit 2017. Brought to you by Red Hat. (light techno music) >> Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of the Red Hat Summit here in beautiful Boston, Massachusetts. I am your host, Rebecca Knight. I'm here with my co-host, Dave Vellante. Joining us is Marco Bill-Peter. He is the vice president of customer experience and engagement at Red Hat. Thank you so much for joining us. >> Thank you for having me. >> So I want to start out by talking about your management philosophy, and your philosophy really of what you do. Because that is just so core to the Red Hat experience for customers. I noticed that you changed the name, it's no longer Customer Support, it is Customer Experience and Engagement. Do you want to talk a little bit about why you made that switch? >> Yeah, I think, well yes, it would be awesome, yeah. I mean the name reflects actually, in my opinion, also the business model from Red Hat, which is you take an open-source development model, you develop the products, you actually sell them as a subscription. But there's no license behind it, which is the amazing business model, right? That there's no lock-in, right? The customer can buy it, they can use it, if we don't provide the value, then shame on us, they can move on. And so that's where the customer experience has to be good. That they really see, hey, I got something from Red Hat, I'm coming back, I will renew this. And the engagement is as well, it's the part, one is like, experience was great and engagement is, we got to engage them, right? Because shame on us if we didn't engage a customer in during their journey during that year of subscription life that they have, or three-year, whatever it is. That is the, I think it's the business model, but it's also my philosophy, which is, I used to work for proprietary companies and running support or customer success functions. There you make the money on the license and the maintenance is, basically, I always call it janitorial services. This way our model is different, so that's why I also report through Paul Cormier, it's integrated in technologies. It's maybe not the philosophy, but it's our philosophy really, the customer, it's not a joke, it's customer is in the center. And if they are successful, yes, they will come back, they will buy more, they will renew. But it's an honest model. And so that's why we changed the name for various reasons. I also, we looked at other functions at Red Hat, and said, "Which one is really about customer experience?" And security, for example, is in my team, right? It's not just support, because security is a big element of our value that we provide. And so that's why we expanded the team, changed the name to kind of reflect that. >> You mention Paul Cormier and we're actually, he's going to be joining us later today too. And he was talking about how the design process is really led by customers in this new era of cloud computing. >> Marco: Yeah. >> Talk a little bit about what it's like to collaborate with customers in these products. >> Yeah, it's really good. I can give you an example from the innovation award winners this week. We have, like, for example, British Columbia, the government of British Columbia, and they start on this journey and they wanted to create this, I would say, exchange for partners that they have, companies to kind of provide some services and make it easier for them. And they started on a journey and it didn't go well. And shame on whoever was involved in that. But then we got involved. I was like, okay, that's what you're trying to solve. We got one of my guys actually flew out there, spent a few weeks out there. He was like, oh, this is the problem, let's build it differently. Then Ashesh Badani from the open-shift team got involved and we realized, okay, what they're trying to do is this, change the product, adjust it. There's one example from last year's innovation award winner. We had Betfair. It's a horse-race company in England. Same thing, they wanted to really innovate a data center in a complete, like, software-defined way. And having that collaboration with us directly and the upstream communities, but then also with partners, like in that case it was a software-defined network provider, to get involved and really build the solutions. It's a whole different way. And if you go back a few years when we just did Linux, that maybe didn't really happen because it was more Linux was driven by the community. And now I think it's honestly good to see because it's customers involved, there's still a lot of partners involved and there is a strong community and that whole thing working together is pretty cool to see. >> There's a saying that I like. It's customer satisfaction is one thing, customer loyalty is everything. And you live in a world where customer loyalty really is everything. Describe, you mentioned before your previous company, what's the innovation experience and total customer experience like now and how do you innovate versus the way a traditional company might innovate in customer experience? >> I think traditional companies, they innovate around, since it's a maintenance budget, we've got to save costs, right? That's their take. It's like, save costs, deflect cases, deflect customers basically, right? And our model is the opposite, right? If I start deflecting customers that's kind of the negative of engagement, right? So pushing back customers that actually they see value if they have interaction so that's where we look at it completely different. We innovate around, you know, like two years ago when we talked about we presented Red Hat insights, the tooling that basically out of our customer support cases we provide back to our customers a connection that they know, hey, this might happen. That's one piece that, you saw it probably at the keynote today, it's integrated in our products now, right? And so that's one piece we innovate around. Support is not seen as an afterthought. It's like, how do we build this into our tooling? So insights was a good example as an innovation. We did a lot of workflow changes, which sounds very technical but really to provide more value back to the customers. So it's called a knowledge center support approach that you really basically take what customers provide you, rephrase that and provide it back as a documentation. If you run into this situation, and it can be a support situation, but it can also an innovation situation, they want to build something new, you provide that back in the form of documentation customer form. >> One of the other things that's changed in the last two years is this explosion of artificial intelligence, some people call it cognitive, and we saw the kickoff video this morning how, and we talked about this a little bit a couple of years ago, how you're going to use data to improve customer experiences and now we're here. How are you using data and insights and analytics to improve the customer service? >> Analytics, I think, we started in a way in a traditional way, right? You have data and then you've got to figure out the data and then you kind of just create rules out of it. If this and this happen you do this. Call it AI, sounds cool, but basically it's rules matching. This happens, that. Now I think it's detecting the trends more automatically that's more done in, I would say, in more real AI. That's where we are. I would say the last year we spent more time figuring out, hey, how do we, instead of trying manually find the trends to actually automatically find them. And I think there is, I just gave an interview a few weeks in Japan where AI is a really hot topic, I think we're just scratching the surface. You saw it in autonomous driving but I think in support there's so much more to do in this area as well. >> When I asked you, you know, about juxtaposing Red Hat versus, say, a traditional software company it would seem like cutting costs was in conflict with innovating for customer experience but when I hear you speak about AI, is it possible there's a relationship between the two? That you can actually improve customer service and cut costs? >> Absolutely, but you want to do it in a good way. You want to do it in a way that it provides value back to the customer. If you do it an way, hey, we've cut out this and this things, then the customer just gets a lousy experience. That doesn't, I think that doesn't even work for a traditional company or proprietary company any more. That whole old, no, there's other companies that do autodeflection, right? But I think if you actually optimize the experience in a way that also the customer sees, hey, this is actually great value, right? If you just optimize things and the customer experience is great, you might actually create a situation where customer doesn't see value, right? Like in the old days, we had a lot of customers saying, hey, I never had the support case, why should I pay you guys? So, you know, obviously you can talk about that's great you didn't have a support case, but a customer paying a few millions and they only had one support case is a tough recovery. Today, not AI, but a lot of data is we can tell the customer, yeah, you had one support case, but look at all the tools you used in the customer portal, all the interactions you have. We have a nice dashboard we can present back to a customer. And, I'll give you, if you have a minute >> Yeah, please. a story quickly of a CTO from a bank that, a few years we met, and then he said, "Oh, Red Hat, you guys are good." That was in a bar. "You guys are good but, you know, I don't really need "your support, Marco. "My guys, they know how to do things." And so, I was like, okay. So in the evening I went back to the hotel, looked at the dashboard and then realized his story was maybe not as realistic. Next day, I see him again and show him the dashboard. And support was involved. There was documentation in use. I showed him back, I was like look at this, this is the value we provide you. And out of that came a whole different discussion, as in we do it annually now, and we looked at this data and he sees trends. He sees like, "Oh, my Latin America bank, "they still use this and this. "My North America team does that and that." And it's a whole different discussion. It's awesome, right, that they realize from the data we have there is a lot of value that he can change his operation. That's a short example. >> I want to talk to you about security. You mentioned this earlier in our conversation. The era of cloud computing is maturing and we are seeing now customers caring more about compliance and governance and management. What are the big concerns that you're hearing from customers? >> Obviously the big concern is still the traditional vulnerabilities, right? If there is a security hole, how do we fix it? How quickly fix it? Do we have the right data that we provide back as a customer realizes, is this a security hole I need to worry about or not. And that's what we do, we kind of focus on, we have a pretty large security team, I think, for the size we are because of the open-source model. So they're involved in a lot of the communities. So we provide fast response and we also provide response not just with a security fix but also with information about, hey, this is why you should worry or this is why you shouldn't worry. 'Cause sometimes the press creates this frenziness about, hey, pick your favorite name of a security hole, Heartbleed, et cetera. And for some customers it doesn't really matter because in their environment this is not a real scenario, right? And so we provide the patch, we provide data or documentation, but then also tooling that they can figure out are we exposed or not. That's one of the things. The other problem is in containers, right? You have these containers. You build the containers from everywhere. To actually realize, hey, is this container also compliant with security is a big topic. We just released, released, or we will release this week, it's not a secret, the container catalog, with actually a scoring that actually says, yes, this container is quality A, B. Kind of a freshness score. >> Ah, a ratings system. >> Yeah, rating. And this is a huge effort for every company and we do it as well, as in how do we keep these containers updated, right? Because you, if you build a container from application to middleware down to the operating system, you've got to worry about a lot of security. >> It's a fresh date. >> Yeah, it's like expiration date. >> A sell-by date. >> And that's what we do actually. We have an expiration date but depending on security hole, that just changes. >> So we were talking to John Hodgson who was at the keynote as well and he was telling us, and he mentioned this in the keynote, that he went from 17 developers in 2009 to 1,600 today. He was talking about that a lot of them are kids right out of college and we were talking about how you have to treat millennials differently and give them flexible time. And, Rebecca, you were talking about a new way to work at the beginning of our segments today. So how is that new way to work affect the customer experience and what are you guys doing in that regard? >> I mean obviously, like you say, right, there's a whole new generation coming and I actually think the new generation, they're actually a pretty sensitive customer experience. I think they're growing up in a different age of like digital age so, and social media as well, so actually I was worried that the new generation maybe, but I have to say, I think contrary, right? So that's good. So I don't think customer experience will suffer. What will change is, like, you can't have people, you know, we don't have it, but like call centers, if you have a little farm for everybody. That just ain't going to fly anymore, right? And so that's where we got to adjust. We don't do call centers, but we got to just adjust, like, how is the office done, where is it, and things like that. But it's, I think, I'm not too worried about that. >> And mobile is huge for you guys obviously, right? The mobile trend. And there's a lot of talk in Silicon Valley about, you know, what's next beyond mobile. How we, this is not how we're going to interface with our two thumbs in the future. It's going to be voice and, you have to be careful not to over-rotate either, right, because you could ruin the customer experience. Do you do that type of advanced, you know, research in total customer experience? >> Yeah, we do research. We actually also research how do they interact with us. You know, mobile is always a topic but our customers aren't engaging as mobile. You know, like it's, I mean-- >> You say they're not? >> They're not, no. >> They're out there. >> You know, our portal is all mobile enabled so you could go with it, but mostly it's still laptops, notebooks, et cetera, that they're using to engage us. So we haven't really invested a lot in that, but we invest in the digital experience, right, so make it easier, provide the tooling, don't force a customer to jump through, like, hoops to find something out. Give them the tool to find out. They want to self-solve a lot, right? Which goes back in the old discussion, is that deflection? But if a self-solve tool helps you, I think customers see, hey, this is value from Red Hat. >> If they can do it themselves, yeah. >> Marco: If they can and they can learn something, right? That part is good. >> Well thank you so much for joining us, Marco Bill-Peter, who is the vice-president, customer experience and engagement, at Red Hat. I'm Rebecca Knight, for Dave Vellante, thank you so much for joining us and we'll be back after this break. (light techno music)