>>The Cube presents Ignite 22, brought to you by Palo Alto Networks. >>Welcome back to Vegas, guys and girls, it's great to have you with us. The Cube Live. Si finishing our second day of coverage of Palo Alto Ignite. 22 from MGM Grand in Las Vegas. Lisa Martin here with Dave Valante. Dave Cybersecurity is one of my favorite topics to talk about because it is so interesting. It is so dynamic. My other favorite thing is to hear the voice of our vendors' customers. And we could to >>Do that. I always love to have the customer on you get you get right to the heart of the matter. Yeah. Really understand. You know, what I like to do is sort of when I listen to the keynotes, try to see how well it aligns with what the customers are actually doing. Yeah. So let's >>Do it. We're gonna unpack that now. Michael Fagan joins us, the Chief Transformation Officer at Village Roadshow. Welcome Michael. It's great to have you >>And thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. >>So this is a really interesting entertainment company. I find the name interesting, but talk to us a little bit about Village Roadshow so the audience gets an understanding of all of the things that you guys do cuz theme parks is part of >>This. Yeah, so Village Road show's Australia's largest cinema exhibitor in conjunction with our partners at event. We also own and operate Australia's largest theme parks. We have Warner Brothers movie World, wet and Wild. SeaWorld Top Golf in Australia is, is operated by us plus more. We also do studio, we also own movie studios, so Aquaman, parts of the Caribbean. We're, we're filming our movie studios Elvis last year. And we also distribute and produce movies and TV shows. Quite diverse group. >>Yeah, you guys have won a lot of awards. I mean, I don't know, academy Awards, golden Globe, all that stuff, you know, and so it's good. Congratulations. Yeah. >>Thank you. >>Cool stuff. I wanna also, before we dig into the use case here, talk to us about the role of a chief transformation officer. How long have you been in that role? What does it encompass and what do you get to drive from a transformation perspective? Yeah, >>So the, the, the nature and pace of disruption is accelerating and on, on one side. And then on the other side, the running business as usual is becoming increasingly complex and, and more difficult to do. So running both simultaneously and at pace can put organizations at risk, both financially and and other ways. So in my role as Chief Transformation officer, I support the rest of the executive team by giving them additional capacity and also bring capability to the team that wasn't there before. So I do a lot of strategic and thought leadership. There's some executive coaching in there, a lot of financial modeling and analysis. And I believe that when a transformation role in particularly a chief transformation role is done correctly, it's a very hands-on role. So there's certain things where I, I dive right down and I'm actually hands in, hands-on leading teams or leading pieces of work. So I might be leading particular projects. I tried to drive profit revenue and profitability across the divisions and does any multi or cross-divisional opportunities or initiative, then I will, I will lead those. >>The transformation, you know, a while ago was cloud, right? Okay, hey, cloud and transformation officers, whether or not they had that title, we'll tell you, look, you gotta change the operating model. You can't just, you know, lift and shift in the cloud. That's, you know, that's pennies. We want, you know, big bucks. That's the operating. Now it's, I'm my question is, is did the pandemic just accelerate your transformation or, or was it, you know, deeper than that? >>Yeah, so what in my role have both digital and business transformation, some of it has been organizational. I think the pandemic has had a, a significant and long lasting effect on society, not just on, on business. So I think if you think about how work work used to be a, a place you went to and how it was done beforehand, before the, before COVID versus now where, you know, previously, you know, within the enterprise you had all of the users, you had all of the applications, you had all of the data, you had all of the people. And then since March, 2020, just overnight, that kind of inverted and, you know, you had people working from home and a person working from home as a branch office of one. So, so we ended up with another thousand branches literally overnight. A lot of the applications that we use are now SASS or cloud-based, whether that's timekeeping with Kronos or communica employee communication or work Jam. So they're not sitting within our data center, they're not sitting within, within our enterprise. It's all external. >>So from a security perspective, you obviously had to respond to that and we heard a lot about endpoint and cloud security and refactoring the network and identity. These guys aren't really an identity. They partner for that, but still a lot of change in focus that the CISO had to deal with. How, how did you guys respond to that? And, and you had a rush to do it. Yeah. And so as you sit back now, where do you go from here? >>Well we had, we had two major triggers for our, our network and security transformation. The first being COVID itself, and then the second beam, we had a, a major MPLS telco renewal that came up. So that gave you an opportunity to look at what we were doing and essentially our network was designed for a near, that no longer exists for when, for when p like I said, when people, when people were from home, all the applications were inside. So, and we had aging infrastructure, our firewalls were end of life. So initially we started off with an SD WAN at the SD WAN layer and an SD WAN implementation. But when we investigated and saw the security capabilities that are available now, we that to a full sassy WAN implementation. >>Why Palo Alto Networks? Because you, you had, you said you had an aging infrastructure designed for an era that doesn't exist anymore, but you also had a number of tools. We've been talking about a consolidation a lot the last couple days. Yeah. How did, what did you consolidate and why with Palo Alto? >>So we had a great partner in Australia, incidentally also called Cube. Cube Networks. Yeah. That we worked with great >>Names. Yeah, right. >>So we, so we, we worked for Cube. We ran a, a form of tender process. And Palo Alto with, you know, Prisma access and Global Global Protect was the only, the only solution that gave us everything that we needed in terms of network modernization, the agility that we required. So for example, in our theme part, we want to send out a hotdog cart or an ice cream cart, and that becomes, all of a sudden you got a new branch that I want to spin up this branch in 10 minutes and then I wanna spin it back down again. So from agility perspective, from a flexibility perspective, the security that, that we wanted, you know, from a zero trust perspective, and they were the only, certainly from a zero trust perspective, they're probably the only vendor that, that exists that, that actually provided the, the, all those capabilities. >>And did you consolidate tools or you were in the process of consolidating tools now? >>Yeah, so we actually, we actually consolidated down to, to, to a, to a single vendor. And in my previous role I had, I had implemented SD WAN before and you know, interoperability is a, is a major issue in the IT industry. I think there's, it's probably the only industry in the, the only industry I can think of certainly that where we, we ship products that aren't ready. They're not of all the features, they, they don't have all the features that they should have. They're their plans. They were releasing patches, releasing additional features every, every couple of months. So, you know, if you, if if Ford sold the card, I said, Hey, you're gonna give you backseats in a couple of months, they'd be uproar. But, but we do that all the time in, in it. So I had, when I previously implemented an Sdwan transformation, I had products from two tier one vendors that just didn't talk to one another. And so when I went and spoke to those vendors, they just went, well, it's not me. It's clearly, clearly those guys. So, so there's a lot to be said for having a, you know, a champion team rather than a team of champions. And Palo Alto have got that full stack fully integrated that was, you know, exactly meant what we were looking for. >>They've been talking a lot the last couple days about integration and it, and I've talked with some of their executives and some analysts as well, including Dave about that seems to be a differentiator for them because they really focus on that. Their m and a strategy is very, it seems to be very clear and there's purpose on that backend integration instead of leaving it to the customer, like Village Road show to do it. They also talked a lot about the consolidation. I'm just curious, Michael, in terms of like what you've heard at the show in the last couple of days. >>Yeah, I mean I've been hearing to same mess, but actually we've, we've lived in a >>You're living it. That's what I wanted to >>Know. So, so, you know, we had a choice of, you know, do you try and purchase so-called best of breed products and then put a lot of effort into integrating them and trying to get them to work, which is not really what we want to spend time doing. I don't, I don't wanna be famous for, you know, integration and, you know, great infrastructure. I want to be, I want Village to be famous for delivering great experiences to our customers. Memories that last a lifetime. And you know, when kids grow up in Australia, they, everybody remembers going to the theme parks. That's what, that's what I want our team to be doing and to be delivering those great experiences, not to be trying to plug together bits of software and it may or may not work and have vendors pointing at one another and then we are left carrying the cannon and holding the >>Baby. So what was the before and after, can you give us a sense as to how life changed, you know, pre that consolidation versus post? >>Yeah, so our, our, our infrastructure, say our infrastructure was designed for, you know, the, you know, old ways of working where we had you knowm routers that were, you know, not designed for cloud, for modern traffic, including cloud Destin traffic, an old MPLS network. We used to back haul all the traffic from, from our branches back to central location run where we've got, you know, firewall walls, we've got a dmz, we could run advanced inspection services on that. So if you had a branch that wanted to access a website that was housed next door, even if it was across the country, then it would, we would pull that all the way back to Melbourne. We would apply advanced inspection services to it, send it up to the cloud out back across the country. Traffic would come back, come down to us, back out to our branch. >>So you talk about crossing the country four times, even at the website is, is situated next door now with, with our sasi sdwan transformation just pops out to the cloud now straight away. And the, the difference in performance for our, for our team and for our customers, it, it's phenomenal. So you'll talk about saving minutes, you know, on a log on and, and seconds then and on, on an average transaction and second zone sound like a lot. But when you, it's every click up, they're saving a second and add up. You're talking about thousands of man hours every month that we've saved. >>If near Zuke were sitting right here and said, what could we do better? You know, what do you need from us that we're not delivering today that you want to, you want us to deliver that would change your life. Yeah, >>There's two things. One, one of which I think they're all, they're already doing, but I actually haven't experienced myself. It's around the autonomous digital experience management. So I've now got a thousand users who are sitting at home and they've got, when they've got a problem, I don't know, is it, is it my problem or is it their problem? So I know that p were working on a, an A solution that digital experience solution, which can actually tell, well actually know you're sitting in your kitchen and your routes in your front room, maybe you should move closer to the route. So there, there they, that's one thing. And the second thing is using AI to tell me things that I wouldn't be able to figure out with a human training. A lot of time sifting through data. So things like where I've potentially overcompensated and, you know, overdelivered on the network and security side or of potentially underdelivered on a security side. So having AI to, you know, assess all of those millions and probably billions of, you know, transactions and packets that are moving around our network and say, Hey, you could optimize it more if you, if you dial this down or dial this up. >>So you said earlier we, this industry has a habit of shipping products before, you know they're ready. So based on your experience, seems like, first of all, it sounds like you got a at least decent technical background as well. When do you expect to have that capability? Realistically? When can we expect that as an industry? >>I think I, I think, like I said, the the rate and nature of change is, is, I think it's accelerating. The halflife of degree is short. I think when I left university, what I, what I learned in first year was, was obsolete within five years, I'd say now it's probably obsolete of you. What'd you learn in first year? It's probably obsolete by the time you finish your degree. >>Six months. Yeah, >>It's true. So I think the, the, the rate of change and the, the partnership that I see Palo building with the likes of AWS and Google and that and how they're coming together to, to solve, to jointly solve these problems is I think we will see this within 12 months. >>Who, who are your clouds? You got multiple clouds >>Or We got multiple clouds. Mostly aws, but there are certain things that we run that run in run in Azure as well. We, we don't really have much in GCP or, or, or some of the other >>Azure for collaboration and teams, stuff like that. >>Ah, we, we run, we run SAP that's we hosted in, in Azure and our cinema ticketing system is, is was run in Azure. It's, it was only available in, in in Azure the time we're mo we are mostly an AWS >>Shop. And what do you do with aws? I mean, pretty much everything else is >>Much every, everything else, anything that's customer facing our websites, they give us great stability. Great, great availability, great performance, you know, we've had and, and, and, and a very variable as well. So, we'll, you know, our, our pattern of selling movie tickets is typically, you know, fairly flat except when, you know, there's a launch of a, of a new movie. So all of a sudden we might say you might sell, you know, at 9:00 AM when, you know, spider-Man went on sale last year, I think we sold 100 times the amount of tickets in the forest, 10 minutes. So our website didn't just scale look beautifully, just took in all of that extra traffic scale up. We're at only any intervention and then scale back down >>Taylor Swift needs that she does need that. So yeah. And so is your vision to have Palo Alto networks security infrastructure have be a common sort of layer across those clouds and maybe even some on-prem? Is it, are you, are you working toward that? Yeah, >>We, yeah, we, yeah, we, we'd love to have, you know, our end, our end customers don't really care about the infrastructure that we run. They won't be >>Able to unless it breaks. >>Unless it breaks. Yeah. They wanna be able to go to see a movie. Do you wanna be able to get on a rollercoaster? They wanna be able to go, you know, play around around a top golf. So having that convergence and that seamless integration of working across cloud network security now for most of our team, they, they don't know and they don't need to know. In fact, I, I frankly don't want them to know and be, be thinking about networks and clouds. I kind of want them thinking about how do we sell more cinema tickets? How do we give a great experience to our guests? How do we give long lasting lifetime memories to, to the people who come visit our parks? >>That's what they want. They want that experience. Right. I'd love to get your final thoughts on, we, we had you give a great overview of the ch the role that you play as Chief transformation officer. You own digital transformation, you want business transformation. What advice would you give to either other treat chief transformation officers, CISOs, CSOs, CEOs about partnering, what's the right partner to really improve your security posture? >>I think there's, there's two things. One is if you haven't looked at this in the last two years and made some changes, you're outta date. Yeah. Because the world has changed. We've seen, I mean, I've heard somebody say it was two decades worth of, I actually think it's probably five 50 years worth of change in, in Australia in terms of working habits. So one, you need to do something. Yeah. Need to, you need to have a look at this. The second thing I think is to try and partner with someone that has similar values to your organization. So Village is a, it's a wonderful, innovative company. Very agile. So the, like the, the concept of gold class cinema, so, you know, big proceeds, recliners, waiter service, elevated foods concept that, that was invented by village in 1997. Thank you. And we had thanks finally came to the states so decade later, I mean we would've had the CEO of every major cinema chain in the world come to come to Melbourne and have a look at what Village is doing and go, yeah, we're gonna export that back around around the world. It's probably one of, one of Australia's unknown exports. Yeah. So it's, yeah, so, so partnering. So we've got a great innovation history and we'd like to think of ourselves as pretty agile. So working with partners who are, have a similar thought process and, and managed to an outcome and not to a contract Yeah. Is, is important for us. >>It's all about outcomes. And you've had some great outcomes, Michael, thank you for joining us on the program, walking us through Village Roadshow, the challenges that you had, how you tackled them, and, and next time I think I'm in a movie theater and I'm in reclining chair, I'm gonna think about you and village. So thank you. We appreciate your insights, your time. Thank you. Thanks Michael. For Michael Fagan and Dave Valante. I'm Lisa Martin. You've been watching The Cube. Our live coverage of Palo Alto Networks. Ignite comes to an end. We thank you so much for watching. We appreciate you. You're watching the Cube, the leader in live enterprise and emerging emerging tech coverage next year. >>Yeah.

>> Announcer: From San Francisco, it's theCUBE! Covering RSA Conference 2020 San Francisco. Brought to you by SiliconANGLE Media. >> Hey welcome back, get ready, Jeff Frick here with theCUBE, we're at RSA 2020, here at Moscone, it's a really pretty day outside in San Francisco, unfortunately we're at the basement of Moscone, but that's 'cause this is the biggest thing going in security, it's probably 15,000 people, we haven't got the official number yet, but this is the place to be and security is a really really really big deal, and we're excited to have our next guest, I haven't seen her for a little while, since data privacy day. I tried to get Scott McNealy to join us, he unfortunately was predisposed and couldn't join us. Michelle Finneran Dennedy, in her new job, the CEO of DrumWave. Michelle, great to see you. >> Great to see you too, I'm sorry I missed you on privacy day. >> I know, so DrumWave, tell us all about DrumWave, last we saw you this is a new adventure since we last spoke. >> It's a new adventure, so this is my first early stage company, we're still seeking series A, we're a young company, but our mantra is we are the data value company. So they have had this very robust analytics engine that goes into the heart of data, and can track it and map it and make it beautiful, and along came McNealy, who actually sits on our board. And they said we need someone, it's all happening. So they asked Scott McNealy, who is the craziest person in privacy and data that you know and he said "Oh my God, get the Dennedy woman." So, they got the Dennedy woman and that's what I do now, so I've taken this analytics value engine, I'm pointing it to the board as I've always said, Grace Hopper said, data value and data risk has to be on the corporate balance sheet, and so that's what we're building is a data balance sheet for everyone to use, to actually value data. >> So to actually put a value on the data, so this is a really interesting topic, because people talk about the value of data, we see the value of data wrapped up, not directly, but indirectly in companies like Facebook and Google and those types of companies who clearly are leveraging data in a very different way, but it is not a line item on a balance sheet, they don't teach you that at business school next to capital assets and, right, so how are you attacking the problem, 'cause that's a huge, arguably will be the biggest asset anyone will have on their balance sheet at some point in time. >> Absolutely, and so I go back to basic principles, the same as I did when I started privacy engineering. I look and I say "Okay, if we believe the data's an asset," and I think that at least verbally, we all say the words "Yes, data is an asset," instead of some sort of exhaust, then you have to look back and say "What's an asset?" Well an asset, under the accounting rules, is anything tangible or intangible that is likely to cause economic benefit. So you break that down, what is the thing, well you got to map that thing. So where is your data? Well data tells you where it is. Instead of bringing in clip boards and saying "Hey, Jeff, my man, do you process PII?" We don't do that, we go to your system, and when you go on DrumWave, you're automatically receiving an ontology that says what is this likely to be, using some machine learning, and then every single column proclaims itself. And so we have a data provenance for every column, so you put that into an analytics engine, and suddenly you can start asking human questions of real data. >> And do you ask the questions to assess the value of the data, or is the ultimate valuation of that data in the categorization and the ontology, and knowing that I have this this this and this, or I mean we know what the real value is, the soft value is what you can do with it, but when you do the analytics on it, are you trying to get to unlock what the potential, underlying analytic value is of that data that you have in your possession? >> Yeah, so the short answer is both, and the longer answer is, so my cofounder, Andre Vellozo, believes, and I believe too, that every conversation is a transaction. So just like you look at transactions within the banking context, and you say, you have to know that it's there, creating a data ontology. You have to know what the context is, so when you upload your data, you receive a data provenance, now you can actually look at, as the data controller, you open what we call your wallet, which is your portal into our analytics engine, and you can see across the various data wranglers, so each business unit has put their data on, because the data's not leaving your place, it's either big data, small data, I don't really care data. Everything comes in through every business unit, loads up their data set, and we look across it and we say "What kind of data is there?" So there's quantitative data saying, if you took off the first 10 lines of this column in marketing, now you have a lump of data that's pure analytics. You just share those credentials and combine that dataset, you know you have a clean set of data that you can even sell, or you can create an analytic, because you don't have any PII. For most data sets, you look at relative value, so for example, one of the discussions I had with a customer today, we know when we fail in privacy, we have a privacy breach, and we pay our lawyers, and so on. Do you know what a privacy success is? >> Hopefully it's like an offensive lineman, you don't hear their name the whole game right, 'cause they don't get a holding call. >> Until they put the ball in the hole. So who's putting the ball in the hole, sales is a privacy success. You've had a conversation with someone who was the right someone in context to sign on the bottom line. You have shared information in a proportionate way. If you have the wrong data, your sale cycle is slower. So we can show, are you efficiently sharing data, how does that correlate with the results of your business unit? Marketing is another privacy success. There's always that old adage that we know that 50% of marketing is a waste, but we don't know which 50%. Well now we can look at it and say "All right," marketing can be looked at as people being prepared to buy your product, or prepared to think in a new, persuasive way. So who's clicking on that stuff, that used to be the metric, now you should tie that back to, how much are you storing for how long related to who's clicking, and tying it to other metrics. So the minute you put data into an analytics engine, it's not me that's going to tell you how you're going to do your data balance sheet, you're going to tell me how dependent you are on digital transactions versus tangible, building things, selling things, moving things, but everyone is a digital business now, and so we can put the intelligence on top of that so you, the expert in value, can look at that value and make your own conclusions. >> And really, what you're talking about then is tying it to my known processes, so you're almost kind of parsing out the role of the data in doing what I'm trying to do with my everyday business. So that's very different than looking at, say, something like, say a Facebook or an Amazon or a Google that are using the data not necessarily, I mean they are supporting the regular processes, but they're getting the valuation bump because of the potential. >> By selling it. >> Or selling it, or doing new businesses based on the data, not just the data in support of the current business. So is that part of your program as well, do you think? >> Absolutely, so we could do the same kind of ontology and value assessment for an Apple, Apple assesses value by keeping it close, and it's not like they're not exploiting data value, it's just that they're having everyone look into the closed garden, and that's very valuable. Facebook started that way with Facebook Circles way back when, and then they decided when they wanted to grow, they actually would start to share. And then it had some interesting consequences along the line. So you can actually look at both of those models as data valuation models. How much is it worth for an advertiser to get the insights about your customers, whether or not they're anonymized or not, and in certain contexts, so healthcare, you want it to be hyper-identifiable, you want it to be exactly that person. So that valuation is higher, with a higher correlation of every time that PII is associated with a treatment, to that specific person with the right name, and the same Jr. or Sr. or Mrs. or Dr., all of that correlated into one, now your value has gone up, whether you're selling that data or what you're selling is services into that data, which is that customer's needs and wants. >> And in doing this with customers, what's been the biggest surprise in terms of a value, a piece of value in the data that maybe just wasn't recognized, or kind of below the covers, or never really had the direct correlation or association that it should've had? >> Yeah, so I don't know if I'm going to directly answer it or I'm going to sidewind it, but I think my biggest surprise wasn't a surprise to me, it was a surprise to my customers. The customers thought we were going to assess their data so they could start selling it, or they could buy other data sources, combine it, enrich it, and then either sell it or get these new insights. >> Jeff: That's what they brought you in for. >> Yeah, I know, cute, right? Yeah, so I'm like "Okay." The aha moment, of course, is that first of all, the "Oh my God" moment in data rarely happens, sometimes in big research cases, you'll get an instance of some biometric that doesn't behave organically, but we're talking about human behavior here, so the "Aha, we should be selling phone data "to people with phones" should not be an aha, that's just bad marketing. So instead, the aha for me has been A, how eager and desperate people are for actually looking at this, I really thought this was going to be a much more steep hill to climb to say "Hey, data's an asset," I've been saying this for over 20 years now, and people are kind of like "Yeah, yeah, yeah." Now for the first time, I'm seeing people really want to get on board and look comprehensively, so I thought we'd be doing little skinny pilots, oh no, everyone wants to get all their data on board so they can start playing around with it. So that's been really a wake-up call for a privacy gal. >> Right, well it's kind of interesting, 'cause you're kind of at the tail end of the hype cycle on big data, with Hadoop, and all that that represented, it went up and down and nobody had-- >> Michelle: Well we thought more was more. >> We thought more was more, but we didn't have the skills to manage it, and there was a lot of issues. And so now you never hear about big data per say, but data's pervasive everywhere, data management is pervasive everywhere, and again, we see the crazy valuations based on database companies, that are clearly getting that. >> And data privacy companies, I mean look at the market in DC land, and any DCs that are looking at this, talk to mama, I know what to do. But we're seeing one feature companies blowing up in the marketplace right now, people really want to know how to handle the risk side as well as the value side. Am I doing the right thing, that's my number one thing that not CPOs are, because they all know how crazy it is out there, but it's chief financial officers are my number one customer. They want to know that they're doing the right thing, both in terms of investment, but also in terms of morality and ethics, am I doing the right thing, am I growing the right kind of business, and how much of my big data is paying me back, or going back to accountancy rules, the definition of a liability is an asset that is uncurated. So I can have a pencil factory, 'cause I sell pencils, and that's great, that's where I house my pencils, I go and I get, but if something happened and somehow the route driver disappeared, and that general manager went away, now I own a pencil factory that has holes in the roof, that has rotting merchandise, that kids can get into, and maybe the ceiling falls, there's a fire, all that is, if I'm not utilizing that asset, is a liability, and we're seeing real money coming out of the European Union, there was a hotel case where the data that they were hoarding wasn't wrong, it was about real people who had stayed at their hotels, it just was in the 90s. And so they were fined 14.5 million Euros for keeping stale data, an asset had turned into a liability, and that's why you're constantly balancing, is it value, is it risk, am I taking so much risk that I'm not compensating with value and vice versa, and I think that's the new aha moment of really looking at your data valuation. >> Yeah, and I think that was part of the big data thing too, where people finally realized it's not a liability, thinking about "I got to buy servers to store it, "and I got to buy storage, and I got to do all this stuff," and they'd just let it fall on the floor. It's not free, but it does have an asset value if you know what to do with it. So let's shift gears about privacy specifically, because obviously you are the queen of privacy. >> I like that, that's my new title. >> GDPR went down, and now we've got the California version of GDPR, love to get your update, did you happen to be here earlier for the keynotes, and there was a conversation on stage about the right to be forgotten. >> Jennifer: Oh dear god, now, tell me. >> And is it even possible, and a very esteemed group of panelists up there just talking about very simple instances where, I search on something that you did, and now I want to be forgotten. >> Did no one watch Back to the Future? Did we not watch that show? Back to the Future where all their limbs start disappearing? >> Yes, yes, it's hard to implement some of these things. >> This has been my exhaustion with the right to be forgotten since the beginning. Humanity has never desired a right to be forgotten. Now people could go from one village to the next and redo themselves, but not without the knowledge that they gained, and being who they were in the last village. >> Jeff: Speaking to people along the way. >> Right, you become a different entity along the way. So, the problem always was really, differential publicity. So, some dude doesn't pay back his debtors, he's called a bad guy, and suddenly, any time you Google him, or Bing him, Bing's still there, right? >> Jeff: I believe so. >> Okay, so you could Bing someone, I guess, and then that would be the first search term, that was the harm, was saying that your past shouldn't always come back to haunt you. And so what we try to do is use this big, soupy term that doesn't exist in philosophy, in art, the Chimea Roos had a great right to be forgotten plan. See how that went down? >> That was not very pleasant. >> No, it was not pleasant, because what happens is, you take out knowledge when you try to look backwards and say "Well, we're going to keep this piece and that," we are what we are, I'm a red hot mess, but I'm a combination of my red hot messes, and some of the things I've learned are based on that. So there's a philosophical debate, but then there's also the pragmatic one of how do you fix it, who fixes it, and who gets to decide whose right it is to be forgotten? >> And what is the goal, that's probably the most important thing, what is the goal that we're trying to achieve, what is the bad thing that we're trying to avoid, versus coming up with some grandiose idea that probably is not possible, much less practical. >> There's a suit against the Catholic Church right now, I don't know if you heard this, and they're not actually in Europe, they live in Vatican City, but there's a suit against, about the right to be forgotten, if I decide I'm no longer Catholic, I'm not doing it, Mom, I'm hearing you, then I should be able to go to the church and erase my baptismal records and all the rest. >> Jeff: Oh, I hadn't heard that one. >> I find it, first of all, as someone who is culturally Catholic, I don't know if I can be as saintly as I once was, as a young child. What happens if my husband decides to not be Catholic anymore? What happens if I'm not married anymore, but now my marriage certificate is gone from the Catholic Church? Are my children bastards now? >> Michelle's going deep. >> What the hell? Literally, what the hell? So I think it's the unintended consequence without, this goes back to our formula, is the data value of deletion proportionate to the data risk, and I would say the right to be forgotten is like this. Now having an indexability or an erasability of a one-time thing, or, I'll give you another corner case, I've done a little bit of thinking, so you probably shouldn't have asked me about this question, but, in the US, when there's a domestic abuse allegation, or someone calls 911, the police officers have to stay safe, and so typically they just take everybody down to the station, men and women. Guess who are most often the aggressors? Usually the dudes. But guess who also gets a mugshot and fingerprints taken? The victim of the domestic abuse. That is technically a public record, there's never been a trial, that person may or may not ever be charged for any offense at all, she just was there, in her own home, having the crap beat out of her. Now she turns her life around, she leaves her abusers, and it can happen to men too, but I'm being biased. And then you do a Google search, and the first thing you find is a mugshot of suspected violence. Are you going to hire that person? Probably not. >> Well, begs a whole discussion, this is the generation where everything's been documented all along the way, so whether they choose or not choose or want or don't want, and how much of it's based on surveillance cameras that you didn't even know. I thought you were going to say, and then you ask Alexa, "Can you please give me the recording "of what really went down?" Which has also been done, it has happened, it has happened, actually, which then you say "Hm, well, is having the data worth the privacy risk "to actually stop the perp from continuing the abuse?" >> Exactly, and one of my age-old mantras, there's very few things that rhyme, but this one does, but if you can't protect, do not collect. So if you're collecting all these recordings in the domestic, think about how you're going to protect. >> There's other people that should've hired you on that one. We won't go there. >> So much stuff to do. >> All right Michelle, but unfortunately we have to leave it there, but thank you for stopping by, I know it's kind of not a happy ending. But good things with DrumWave, so congratulations, we continue to watch the story evolve, and I'm sure it'll be nothing but phenomenal success. >> It's going to be a good time. >> All right, thanks a lot Michelle. She's Michelle, I'm Jeff, you're watching theCUBE, we're at RSA 2020 in San Francisco, thanks for watching, we'll see you next time. (techno music)

>>from Las Vegas. It's the Q covering. Next work. 2019 America's Do You buy Juniper Networks? Come back already. Jeffrey here with the Cube were in Las Vegas at Caesar's at the Juniper. Next work event. About 1000 people kind of going over a lot of new cool things. 400 gigs. Who knew that was coming out of new information for me? But that's not what we're here today. We're here for the fourth installment of around the Cube unpacking. I were happy to have all the winners of the three previous rounds here at the same place. We don't have to do it over the phone s so we're happy to have him. Let's jump into it. So winner of Round one was Bob Friday. He is the VP and CTO at Missed the Juniper Company. Bob, Great to see you. Good to be back. Absolutely. All the way from Seattle. Sharna Parky. She's a VP applied scientist at Tech CEO could see Sharna and, uh, from Google. We know a lot of a I happen to Google. Rajan's chef. He is the V p ay ay >>product management on Google. Welcome. Thank you, Christy. Here >>All right, so let's jump into it. So just warm everybody up and we'll start with you. Bob, What are some When you're talking to someone at a cocktail party Friday night talking to your mom And they say, What is a I What >>do you >>give him? A Zen examples of where a eyes of packing our lives today? >>Well, I think we all know the examples of the south driving car, you know? Aye, aye. Starting to help our health care industry being diagnosed cancer for me. Personally, I had kind of a weird experience last week at a retail technology event where basically had these new digital mirrors doing facial recognition. Right? And basically, you start to have little mirrors were gonna be a skeevy start guessing. Hey, you have a beard, you have some glasses, and they start calling >>me old. So this is kind >>of very personal. I have a something for >>you, Camille, but eh? I go walking >>down a mall with a bunch of mirrors, calling me old. >>That's a little Illinois. Did it bring you out like a cane or a walker? You know, you start getting some advertising's >>that were like Okay, you guys, this is a little bit over the top. >>Alright, Charlotte, what about you? What's your favorite example? Share with people? >>Yeah, E think one of my favorite examples of a I is, um, kind of accessible in on your phone where the photos you take on an iPhone. The photos you put in Google photos, they're automatically detecting the faces and their labeling them for you. They're like, Here's selfies. Here's your family. Here's your Children. And you know, that's the most successful one of the ones that I think people don't really think about a lot or things like getting loan applications right. We actually have a I deciding whether or not we get loans. And that one is is probably the most interesting one to be right now. >>Roger. So I think the father's example is probably my favorite as well. And what's interesting to me is that really a I is actually not about the Yeah, it's about the user experience that you can create as a result of a I. What's cool about Google photos is that and my entire family uses Google photos and they don't even know actually that the underlying in some of the most powerful a I in the world. But what they know is they confined every picture of our kids on the beach whenever they whenever they want to. Or, you know, we had a great example where we were with our kids. Every time they like something in the store, we take a picture of it, Um, and we can look up toy and actually find everything that they've taken picture. >>It's interesting because I think most people don't even know the power that they have. Because if you search for beach in your Google photos or you search for, uh, I was looking for an old bug picture from my high school there it came right up until you kind of explore. You know, it's pretty tricky, Raja, you know, I think a lot of conversation about A They always focus the general purpose general purpose, general purpose machines and robots and computers. But people don't really talk about the applied A that's happening all around. Why do you think that? >>So it's a good question. There's there's a lot more talk about kind of general purpose, but the reality of where this has an impact right now is, though, are those specific use cases. And so, for example, things like personalizing customer interaction or, ah, spotting trends that did that you wouldn't have spotted for turning unstructured data like documents into structure data. That's where a eyes actually having an impact right now. And I think it really boils down to getting to the right use cases where a I right? >>Sharon, I want ask you. You know, there's a lot of conversation. Always has A I replace people or is it an augmentation for people? And we had Gary Kasparov on a couple years ago, and he talked about, you know, it was the combination if he plus the computer made the best chess player, but that quickly went away. Now the computer is actually better than Garry Kasparov. Plus the computer. How should people think about a I as an augmentation tool versus a replacement tool? And is it just gonna be specific to the application? And how do you kind of think about those? >>Yeah, I would say >>that any application where you're making life and death decisions where you're making financial decisions that disadvantage people anything where you know you've got u A. V s and you're deciding whether or not to actually dropped the bomb like you need a human in the loop. If you're trying to change the words that you are using to get a different group of people to apply for jobs, you need a human in the loop because it turns out that for the example of beach, you type sheep into your phone and you might get just a field, a green field and a I doesn't know that, uh, you know, if it's always seen sheep in a field that when the sheep aren't there, that that isn't a sheep like it doesn't have that kind of recognition to it. So anything were we making decisions about parole or financial? Anything like that needs to have human in the loop because those types of decisions are changing fundamentally the way we live. >>Great. So shift gears. The team are Jeff Saunders. Okay, team, your mind may have been the liquid on my bell, so I'll be more active on the bell. Sorry about that. Everyone's even. We're starting a zero again, so I want to shift gears and talk about data sets. Um Bob, you're up on stage. Demo ing some some of your technology, the Miss Technology and really, you know, it's interesting combination of data sets A I and its current form needs a lot of data again. Kind of the classic Chihuahua on blue buried and photos. You got to run a lot of them through. How do you think about data sets? In terms of having the right data in a complete data set to drive an algorithm >>E. I think we all know data sets with one The tipping points for a I to become more real right along with cloud computing storage. But data is really one of the key points of making a I really write my example on stage was wine, right? Great wine starts a great grape street. Aye, aye. Starts a great data for us personally. L s t M is an example in our networking space where we have data for the last three months from our customers and rule using the last 30 days really trained these l s t m algorithms to really get that tsunami detection the point where we don't have false positives. >>How much of the training is done. Once you once you've gone through the data a couple times in a just versus when you first started, you're not really sure how it's gonna shake out in the algorithm. >>Yeah. So in our case right now, right, training happens every night. So every night, we're basically retraining those models, basically, to be able to predict if there's gonna be an anomaly or network, you know? And this is really an example. Where you looking all these other cat image thinks this is where these neural networks there really were one of the transformational things that really moved a I into the reality calling. And it's starting to impact all our different energy. Whether it's text imaging in the networking world is an example where even a I and deep learnings ruling starting to impact our networking customers. >>Sure, I want to go to you. What do you do if you don't have a big data set? You don't have a lot of pictures of chihuahuas and blackberries, and I want to apply some machine intelligence to the problem. >>I mean, so you need to have the right data set. You know, Big is a relative term on, and it depends on what you're using it for, right? So you can have a massive amount of data that represents solar flares, and then you're trying to detect some anomaly, right? If you train and I what normal is based upon a massive amount of data and you don't have enough examples of that anomaly you're trying to detect, then it's never going to say there's an anomaly there, so you actually need to over sample. You have to create a population of data that allows you to detect images you can't say, Um oh, >>I'm going to reflect in my data set the percentage of black women >>in Seattle, which is something below 6% and say it's fair. It's not right. You have to be able thio over sample things that you need, and in some ways you can get this through surveys. You can get it through, um, actually going to different sources. But you have to boot, strap it in some way, and then you have to refresh it, because if you leave that data set static like Bob mentioned like you, people are changing the way they do attacks and networks all the time, and so you may have been able to find the one yesterday. But today it's a completely different ball game >>project to you, which comes first, the chicken or the egg. You start with the data, and I say this is a ripe opportunity to apply some. Aye, aye. Or do you have some May I objectives that you want to achieve? And I got to go out and find the >>data. So I actually think what starts where it starts is the business problem you're trying to solve. And then from there, you need to have the right data. What's interesting about this is that you can actually have starting points. And so, for example, there's techniques around transfer, learning where you're able to take an an algorithm that's already been trained on a bunch of data and training a little bit further with with your data on DSO, we've seen that such that people that may have, for example, only 100 images of something, but they could use a model that's trained on millions of images and only use those 100 thio create something that's actually quite accurate. >>So that's a great segue. Wait, give me a ring on now. And it's a great Segway into talking about applying on one algorithm that was built around one data set and then applying it to a different data set. Is that appropriate? Is that correct? Is air you risking all kinds of interesting problems by taking that and applying it here, especially in light of when people are gonna go to outweigh the marketplace, is because I've got a date. A scientist. I couldn't go get one in the marketplace and apply to my data. How should people be careful not to make >>a bad decision based on that? So I think it really depends. And it depends on the type of machine learning that you're doing and what type of data you're talking about. So, for example, with images, they're they're they're well known techniques to be able to do this, but with other things, there aren't really and so it really depends. But then the other inter, the other really important thing is that no matter what at the end, you need to test and generate based on your based on your data sets and on based on sample data to see if it's accurate or not, and then that's gonna guide everything. Ultimately, >>Sharon has got to go to you. You brought up something in the preliminary rounds and about open A I and kind of this. We can't have this black box where stuff goes into the algorithm. That stuff comes out and we're not sure what the result was. Sounds really important. Is that Is that even plausible? Is it feasible? This is crazy statistics, Crazy math. You talked about the business objective that someone's trying to achieve. I go to the data scientist. Here's my data. You're telling this is the output. How kind of where's the line between the Lehman and the business person and the hard core data science to bring together the knowledge of Here's what's making the algorithm say this. >>Yeah, there's a lot of names for this, whether it's explainable. Aye, aye. Or interpret a belay. I are opening the black box. Things like that. Um, the algorithms that you use determine whether or not they're inspect herbal. Um, and the deeper your neural network gets, the harder it is to inspect, actually. Right. So, to your point, every time you take an aye aye and you use it in a different scenario than what it was built for. For example, um, there is a police precinct in New York that had a facial recognition software, and, uh, victim said, Oh, it looked like this actor. This person looked like Bill Cosby or something like that, and you were never supposed to take an image of an actor and put it in there to find people that look like them. But that's how people were using it. So the Russians point yes, like it. You can transfer learning to other a eyes, but it's actually the humans that are using it in ways that are unintended that we have to be more careful about, right? Um, even if you're a, I is explainable, and somebody tries to use it in a way that it was never intended to be used. The risk is much higher >>now. I think maybe I had, You know, if you look at Marvis kind of what we're building for the networking community Ah, good examples. When Marvis tries to do estimate your throughput right, your Internet throughput. That's what we usually call decision tree algorithm. And that's a very interpretive algorithm. and we predict low throughput. We know how we got to that answer, right? We know what features God, is there? No. But when we're doing something like a NAMI detection, that's a neural network. That black box it tells us yes, there's a problem. There's some anomaly, but that doesn't know what caused the anomaly. But that's a case where we actually used neural networks, actually find the anomie, and then we're using something else to find the root cause, eh? So it really depends on the use case and where the night you're going to use an interpreter of model or a neural network which is more of a black box model. T tell her you've got a cat or you've got a problem >>somewhere. So, Bob, that's really interested. So can you not unpacking? Neural network is just the nature of the way that the communication and the data flows and the inferences are made that you can't go in and unpack it, that you have to have the >>separate kind of process too. Get to the root cause. >>Yeah, assigned is always hard to say. Never. But inherently s neural networks are very complicated. Saito set of weights, right? It's basically usually a supervised training model, and we're feeding a bunch of data and trying to train it to detect a certain features, sir, an output. But that is where they're powerful, right? And that's why they basically doing such good, Because they are mimicking the brain, right? That neural network is a very complex thing. Can't like your brain, right? We really don't understand how your brain works right now when you have a problem, it's really trialling there. We try to figure out >>right going right. So I want to stay with you, bought for a minute. So what about when you change what you're optimizing? Four? So you just said you're optimizing for throughput of the network. You're looking for problems. Now, let's just say it's, uh, into the end of the quarter. Some other reason we're not. You're changing your changing what you're optimizing for, Can you? You have to write separate algorithm. Can you have dynamic movement inside that algorithm? How do you approach a problem? Because you're not always optimizing for the same things, depending on the market conditions. >>Yeah, I mean, I think a good example, you know, again, with Marvis is really with what we call reinforcement. Learning right in reinforcement. Learning is a model we use for, like, radio resource management. And there were really trying to optimize for the user experience in trying to balance the reward, the models trying to reward whether or not we have a good balance between the network and the user. Right, that reward could be changed. So that algorithm is basically reinforcement. You can finally change hell that Algren works by changing the reward you give the algorithm >>great. Um, Rajan back to you. A couple of huge things that have come into into play in the marketplace and get your take one is open source, you know, kind of. What's the impact of open source generally on the availability, desire and more applications and then to cloud and soon to be edge? You know, the current next stop. How do you guys incorporate that opportunity? How does it change what you can do? How does it open up the lens of >>a I Yeah, I think open source is really important because I think one thing that's interesting about a I is that it's a very nascent field and the more that there's open source, the more that people could build on top of each other and be able to utilize what what others others have done. And it's similar to how we've seen open source impact operating systems, the Internet, things like things like that with Cloud. I think one of the big things with cloud is now you have the processing power and the ability to access lots of data to be able to t create these thes networks. And so the capacity for data and the capacity for compute is much higher. Edge is gonna be a very important thing, especially going into next few years. You're seeing Maur things incorporated on the edge and one exciting development is around Federated learning where you can train on the edge and then combine some of those aspects into a cloud side model. And so that I think will actually make EJ even more powerful. >>But it's got to be so dynamic, right? Because the fundamental problem used to always be the move, the computer, the data or the date of the computer. Well, now you've got on these edge devices. You've got Tanya data right sensor data all kinds of machining data. You've got potentially nasty hostile conditions. You're not in a nice, pristine data center where the environmental conditions are in the connective ity issues. So when you think about that problem yet, there's still great information. There you got latent issues. Some I might have to be processed close to home. How do you incorporate that age old thing of the speed of light to still break the break up? The problem to give you a step up? Well, we see a lot >>of customers do is they do a lot of training on the cloud, but then inference on the on the edge. And so that way they're able to create the model that they want. But then they get fast response time by moving the model to the edge. The other thing is that, like you said, lots of data is coming into the edge. So one way to do it is to efficiently move that to the cloud. But the other way to do is filter. And to try to figure out what data you want to send to the clouds that you can create the next days. >>Shawna, back to you let's shift gears into ethics. This pesky, pesky issue that's not not a technological issue at all, but right. We see it often, especially in tech. Just cause you should just cause you can doesn't mean that you should. Um so and this is not a stem issue, right? There's a lot of different things that happened. So how should people be thinking about ethics? How should they incorporate ethics? Um, how should they make sure that they've got kind of a, you know, a standard kind of overlooking kind of what they're doing? The decisions are being made. >>Yeah, One of the more approachable ways that I have found to explain this is with behavioral science methodologies. So ethics is a massive field of study, and not everyone shares the same ethics. However, if you try and bring it closer to behavior change because every product that we're building is seeking to change of behavior. We need to ask questions like, What is the gap between the person's intention and the goal we have for them? Would they choose that goal for themselves or not? If they wouldn't, then you have an ethical problem, right? And this this can be true of the intention, goal gap or the intention action up. We can see when we regulated for cigarettes. What? We can't just make it look cool without telling them what the cigarettes are doing to them, right so we can apply the same principles moving forward. And they're pretty accessible without having to know. Oh, this philosopher and that philosopher in this ethicist said these things, it can be pretty human. The challenge with this is that most people building these algorithms are not. They're not trained in this way of thinking, and especially when you're working at a start up right, you don't have access to massive teams of people to guide you down this journey, so you need to build it in from the beginning, and you need to be open and based upon principles. Um, and it's going to touch every component. It should touch your data, your algorithm, the people that you're using to build the product. If you only have white men building the product, you have a problem you need to pull in other people. Otherwise, there are just blind spots that you are not going to think of in order to still that product for a wider audience, but it seems like >>they were on such a razor sharp edge. Right with Coca Cola wants you to buy Coca Cola and they show ads for Coca Cola, and they appeal to your let's all sing together on the hillside and be one right. But it feels like with a I that that is now you can cheat. Right now you can use behavioral biases that are hardwired into my brain is a biological creature against me. And so where is where is the fine line between just trying to get you to buy Coke? Which somewhat argues Probably Justus Bad is Jule cause you get diabetes and all these other issues, but that's acceptable. But cigarettes are not. And now we're seeing this stuff on Facebook with, you know, they're coming out. So >>we know that this is that and Coke isn't just selling Coke anymore. They're also selling vitamin water so they're they're play isn't to have a single product that you can purchase, but it is to have a suite of products that if you weren't that coke, you can buy it. But if you want that vitamin water you can have that >>shouldn't get vitamin water and a smile that only comes with the coat. Five. You want to jump in? >>I think we're going to see ethics really break into two different discussions, right? I mean, ethics is already, like human behavior that you're already doing right, doing bad behavior, like discriminatory hiring, training, that behavior. And today I is gonna be wrong. It's wrong in the human world is gonna be wrong in the eye world. I think the other component to this ethics discussion is really round privacy and data. It's like that mirror example, right? No. Who gave that mirror the right to basically tell me I'm old and actually do something with that data right now. Is that my data? Or is that the mirrors data that basically recognized me and basically did something with it? Right. You know, that's the Facebook. For example. When I get the email, tell me, look at that picture and someone's take me in the pictures Like, where was that? Where did that come from? Right? >>What? I'm curious about to fall upon that as social norms change. We talked about it a little bit for we turn the cameras on, right? It used to be okay. Toe have no black people drinking out of a fountain or coming in the side door of a restaurant. Not that long ago, right in the 60. So if someone had built an algorithm, then that would have incorporated probably that social norm. But social norms change. So how should we, you know, kind of try to stay ahead of that or at least go back reflectively after the fact and say kind of back to the black box, That's no longer acceptable. We need to tweak this. I >>would have said in that example, that was wrong. 50 years ago. >>Okay, it was wrong. But if you ask somebody in Alabama, you know, at the University of Alabama, Matt Department who have been born Red born, bred in that culture as well, they probably would have not necessarily agreed. But so generally, though, again, assuming things change, how should we make sure to go back and make sure that we're not again carrying four things that are no longer the right thing to do? >>Well, I think I mean, as I said, I think you know what? What we know is wrong, you know is gonna be wrong in the eye world. I think the more subtle thing is when we start relying on these Aye. Aye. To make decisions like no shit in my car, hit the pedestrian or save my life. You know, those are tough decisions to let a machine take off or your balls decision. Right when we start letting the machines Or is it okay for Marvis to give this D I ps preference over other people, right? You know, those type of decisions are kind of the ethical decision, you know, whether right or wrong, the human world, I think the same thing will apply in the eye world. I do think it will start to see more regulation. Just like we see regulation happen in our hiring. No, that regulation is going to be applied into our A I >>right solutions. We're gonna come back to regulation a minute. But, Roger, I want to follow up with you in your earlier session. You you made an interesting comment. You said, you know, 10% is clearly, you know, good. 10% is clearly bad, but it's a soft, squishy middle at 80% that aren't necessarily super clear, good or bad. So how should people, you know, kind of make judgments in this this big gray area in the middle? >>Yeah, and I think that is the toughest part. And so the approach that we've taken is to set us set out a set of AI ai principles on DDE. What we did is actually wrote down seven things that we will that we think I should do and four things that we should not do that we will not do. And we now have to actually look at everything that we're doing against those Aye aye principles. And so part of that is coming up with that governance process because ultimately it boils down to doing this over and over, seeing lots of cases and figuring out what what you should do and so that governments process is something we're doing. But I think it's something that every company is going to need to do. >>Sharon, I want to come back to you, so we'll shift gears to talk a little bit about about law. We've all seen Zuckerberg, unfortunately for him has been, you know, stuck in these congressional hearings over and over and over again. A little bit of a deer in a headlight. You made an interesting comment on your prior show that he's almost like he's asking for regulation. You know, he stumbled into some really big Harry nasty areas that were never necessarily intended when they launched Facebook out of his dorm room many, many moons ago. So what is the role of the law? Because the other thing that we've seen, unfortunately, a lot of those hearings is a lot of our elected officials are way, way, way behind there, still printing their e mails, right? So what is the role of the law? How should we think about it? What shall we What should we invite from fromthe law to help sort some of this stuff out? >>I think as an individual, right, I would like for each company not to make up their own set of principles. I would like to have a shared set of principles that were following the challenge. Right, is that with between governments, that's impossible. China is never gonna come up with same regulations that we will. They have a different privacy standards than we D'oh. Um, but we are seeing locally like the state of Washington has created a future of work task force. And they're coming into the private sector and asking companies like text you and like Google and Microsoft to actually advise them on what should we be regulating? We don't know. We're not the technologists, but they know how to regulate. And they know how to move policies through the government. What will find us if we don't advise regulators on what we should be regulating? They're going to regulate it in some way, just like they regulated the tobacco industry. Just like they regulated. Sort of, um, monopolies that tech is big enough. Now there is enough money in it now that it will be regularly. So we need to start advising them on what we should regulate because just like Mark, he said. While everyone else was doing it, my competitors were doing it. So if you >>don't want me to do it, make us all stop. What >>can I do? A negative bell and that would not for you, but for Mark's responsibly. That's crazy. So So bob old man at the mall. It's actually a little bit more codified right, There's GDP are which came through May of last year and now the newness to California Extra Gatorade, California Consumer Protection Act, which goes into effect January 1. And you know it's interesting is that the hardest part of the implementation of that I think I haven't implemented it is the right to be for gotten because, as we all know, computers, air, really good recording information and cloud. It's recorded everywhere. There's no there there. So when these types of regulations, how does that impact? Aye, aye, because if I've got an algorithm built on a data set in in person, you know, item number 472 decides they want to be forgotten How that too I deal with that. >>Well, I mean, I think with Facebook, I can see that as I think. I suspect Mark knows what's right and wrong. He's just kicking ball down tires like >>I want you guys. >>It's your problem, you know. Please tell me what to do. I see a ice kind of like any other new technology, you know, it could be abused and used in the wrong waste. I think legally we have a constitution that protects our rights. And I think we're going to see the lawyers treat a I just like any other constitutional things and people who are building products using a I just like me build medical products or other products and actually harmful people. You're gonna have to make sure that you're a I product does not harm people. You're a product does not include no promote discriminatory results. So I >>think we're going >>to see our constitutional thing is going applied A I just like we've seen other technologies work. >>And it's gonna create jobs because of that, right? Because >>it will be a whole new set of lawyers >>the holdings of lawyers and testers, even because otherwise of an individual company is saying. But we tested. It >>works. Trust us. Like, how are you gonna get the independent third party verification of that? So we're gonna start to see a whole terrorist proliferation of that type of fields that never had to exist before. >>Yeah, one of my favorite doctor room. A child. Grief from a center. If you don't follow her on Twitter Follower. She's fantastic and a great lady. So I want to stick with you for a minute, Bob, because the next topic is autonomous. And Rahman up on the keynote this morning, talked about missed and and really, this kind of shifting workload of fixing things into an autonomous set up where the system now is, is finding problems, diagnosing problems, fixing problems up to, I think, he said, even generating return authorizations for broken gear, which is amazing. But autonomy opens up all kinds of crazy, scary things. Robert Gates, we interviewed said, You know, the only guns that are that are autonomous in the entire U. S. Military are the ones on the border of North Korea. Every single other one has to run through a person when you think about autonomy and when you can actually grant this this a I the autonomy of the agency toe act. What are some of the things to think about in the word of the things to keep from just doing something bad, really, really fast and efficiently? >>Yeah. I mean, I think that what we discussed, right? I mean, I think Pakal purposes we're far, you know, there is a tipping point. I think eventually we will get to the CP 30 Terminator day where we actually build something is on par with the human. But for the purposes right now, we're really looking at tools that we're going to help businesses, doctors, self driving cars and those tools are gonna be used by our customers to basically allow them to do more productive things with their time. You know, whether it's doctor that's using a tool to actually use a I to predict help bank better predictions. They're still gonna be a human involved, you know, And what Romney talked about this morning and networking is really allowing our I T customers focus more on their business problems where they don't have to spend their time finding bad hard were bad software and making better experiences for the people. They're actually trying to serve >>right, trying to get your take on on autonomy because because it's a different level of trust that we're giving to the machine when we actually let it do things based on its own. But >>there's there's a lot that goes into this decision of whether or not to allow autonomy. There's an example I read. There's a book that just came out. Oh, what's the title? You look like a thing. And I love you. It was a book named by an A I, um if you want to learn a lot about a I, um and you don't know much about it, Get it? It's really funny. Um, so in there there is in China. Ah, factory where the Aye Aye. Is optimizing um, output of cockroaches now they just They want more cockroaches now. Why do they want that? They want to grind them up and put them in a lotion. It's one of their secret ingredients now. It depends on what parameters you allow that I to change, right? If you decide Thio let the way I flood the container, and then the cockroaches get out through the vents and then they get to the kitchen to get food, and then they reproduce the parameters in which you let them be autonomous. Over is the challenge. So when we're working with very narrow Ai ai, when use hell the Aye. Aye. You can change these three things and you can't just change anything. Then it's a lot easier to make that autonomous decision. Um and then the last part of it is that you want to know what is the results of a negative outcome, right? There was the result of a positive outcome. And are those results something that we can take actually? >>Right, Right. Roger, don't give you the last word on the time. Because kind of the next order of step is where that machines actually write their own algorithms, right? They start to write their own code, so they kind of take this next order of thought and agency, if you will. How do you guys think about that? You guys are way out ahead in the space, you have huge data set. You got great technology. Got tensorflow. When will the machines start writing their own A their own out rhythms? Well, and actually >>it's already starting there that, you know, for example, we have we have a product called Google Cloud. Ottawa. Mel Village basically takes in a data set, and then we find the best model to be able to match that data set. And so things like that that that are there already, but it's still very nascent. There's a lot more than that that can happen. And I think ultimately with with how it's used I think part of it is you have to start. Always look at the downside of automation. And what is what is the downside of a bad decision, whether it's the wrong algorithm that you create or a bad decision in that model? And so if the downside is really big, that's where you need to start to apply Human in the loop. And so, for example, in medicine. Hey, I could do amazing things to detect diseases, but you would want a doctor in the loop to be able to actually diagnose. And so you need tohave have that place in many situations to make sure that it's being applied well. >>But is that just today? Or is that tomorrow? Because, you know, with with exponential growth and and as fast as these things are growing, will there be a day where you don't necessarily need maybe need the doctor to communicate the news? Maybe there's some second order impacts in terms of how you deal with the family and, you know, kind of pros and cons of treatment options that are more emotional than necessarily mechanical, because it seems like eventually that the doctor has a role. But it isn't necessarily in accurately diagnosing a problem. >>I think >>I think for some things, absolutely over time the algorithms will get better and better, and you can rely on them and trust them more and more. But again, I think you have to look at the downside consequence that if there's a bad decision, what happens and how is that compared to what happens today? And so that's really where, where that is. So, for example, self driving cars, we will get to the point where cars are driving by themselves. There will be accidents, but the accident rate is gonna be much lower than what's there with humans today, and so that will get there. But it will take time. >>And there was a day when will be illegal for you to drive. You have manslaughter, right? >>I I believe absolutely there will be in and and I don't think it's that far off. Actually, >>wait for the day when I have my car take me up to Northern California with me. Sleepy. I've only lived that long. >>That's right. And work while you're while you're sleeping, right? Well, I want to thank everybody Aton for being on this panel. This has been super fun and these air really big issues. So I want to give you the final word will just give everyone kind of a final say and I just want to throw out their Mars law. People talk about Moore's law all the time. But tomorrow's law, which Gardner stolen made into the hype cycle, you know, is that we tend to overestimate in the short term, which is why you get the hype cycle and we turn. Tend to underestimate, in the long term the impacts of technology. So I just want it is you look forward in the future won't put a year number on it, you know, kind of. How do you see this rolling out? What do you excited about? What are you scared about? What should we be thinking about? We'll start with you, Bob. >>Yeah, you know, for me and, you know, the day of the terminus Heathrow. I don't know if it's 100 years or 1000 years. That day is coming. We will eventually build something that's in part of the human. I think the mission about the book, you know, you look like a thing and I love >>you. >>Type of thing that was written by someone who tried to train a I to basically pick up lines. Right? Cheesy pickup lines. Yeah, I'm not for sure. I'm gonna trust a I to help me in my pickup lines yet. You know I love you. Look at your thing. I love you. I don't know if they work. >>Yeah, but who would? Who would have guessed online dating is is what it is if you had asked, you know, 15 years ago. But I >>think yes, I think overall, yes, we will see the Terminator Cp through It was probably not in our lifetime, but it is in the future somewhere. A. I is definitely gonna be on par with the Internet cell phone, radio. It's gonna be a technology that's gonna be accelerating if you look where technology's been over last. Is this amazing to watch how fast things have changed in our lifetime alone, right? Yeah, we're just on this curve of technology accelerations. This in the >>exponential curves China. >>Yeah, I think the thing I'm most excited about for a I right now is the addition of creativity to a lot of our jobs. So ah, lot of we build an augmented writing product. And what we do is we look at the words that have happened in the world and their outcomes. And we tell you what words have impacted people in the past. Now, with that information, when you augment humans in that way, they get to be more creative. They get to use language that have never been used before. To communicate an idea. You can do this with any field you can do with composition of music. You can if you can have access as an individual, thio the data of a bunch of cultures the way that we evolved can change. So I'm most excited about that. I think I'm most concerned currently about the products that we're building Thio Give a I to people that don't understand how to use it or how to make sure they're making an ethical decision. So it is extremely easy right now to go on the Internet to build a model on a data set. And I'm not a specialist in data, right? And so I have no idea if I'm adding bias in or not, um and so it's It's an interesting time because we're in that middle area. Um, and >>it's getting loud, all right, Roger will throw with you before we have to cut out, or we're not gonna be able to hear anything. So I actually start every presentation out with a picture of the Mosaic browser, because what's interesting is I think that's where >>a eyes today compared to kind of weather when the Internet was around 1994 >>were just starting to see how a I can actually impact the average person. As a result, there's a lot of hype, but what I'm actually finding is that 70% of the company's I talked to the first question is, Why should I be using this? And what benefit does it give me? Why 70% ask you why? Yeah, and and what's interesting with that is that I think people are still trying to figure out what is this stuff good for? But to your point about the long >>run, and we underestimate the longer I think that every company out there and every product will be fundamentally transformed by eye over the course of the next decade, and it's actually gonna have a bigger impact on the Internet itself. And so that's really what we have to look forward to. >>All right again. Thank you everybody for participating. There was a ton of fun. Hope you had fun. And I look at the score sheet here. We've got Bob coming in and the bronze at 15 points. Rajan, it's 17 in our gold medal winner for the silver Bell. Is Sharna at 20 points. Again. Thank you. Uh, thank you so much and look forward to our next conversation. Thank Jeffrey Ake signing out from Caesar's Juniper. Next word unpacking. I Thanks for watching.

(upbeat techno music) >> Live, from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE covering VMworld 2018, brought to you by VMware and it's eco-system partners. >> Hello everyone and welcome back to theCUBE's live coverage day three of three days of coverage, VMworld 2018 here in Las Vegas, CUBE wall-to-wall coverage, 94 interviews, two sets, our ninth year covering VMworld, I'm John Furrier with my co-host Stuart Miniman on this segment, our next guest is Milin Desai, who is the Vice President and general manager of Cloud Services at VMware, formerly driving the NSX business, been there for multiple years, eight years. Great to see you, thanks for coming on theCUBE. >> Pleasure to be here. >> So you've seen the evolution, you've been there, you've been in the boat. NSX, on a good path, doing really well, cloud services, very clear visibility on what strategy is. >> Mm-hmm. >> Private and public, hybrid multi-cloud, validated by the leader AWS and Andy Jassy, again for the second year. So pretty clear visibility at least on what the landscape looks like. >> Mm-hmm. Multiple clouds, software driving all the value. What's the cloud services piece that you're running now? Take a minute to explain what the landscape looks like, what's your charter, what are you trying to do, and what's happening with news and announcements? >> Sure, so about two years back we started on this journey around cloud services. And the premise was that, increasingly, there are two trends taking place which is; SaaS delivered experiences for on prem. So how can we deliver SaaS experiences on prem? As well as the partnership with, you know AWS for VMware cloud on AWS. So the two things started coming together both in terms of a product opportunity, which is VMware cloud AWS. But overall delivering our capabilities as SaaS, both hybrid as well as in the public clouds. So cloud services is a portfolio that delivers VMware services from management, to security, to operations, as SaaS services to the private cloud as well as to the public cloud. >> Tom Corn, the Senior Vice President of general security projects, was just on theCUBE today as well before you came on. He said, I asked him for a prediction and I'll ask you at the end too, for a 2019 prediction, but he said, "I see the conversation starting to be "security as a service someday," and he's kind of like connecting the dots a bit. But that proves the point it's a SAS business model. The services need to be consumable and scalable. This is a key design criteria and a product guiding principal right, for you guys? >> Yes, So increasingly SaaS makes it easy. The value benefits on that is I don't need to operate, it just works and I can get the value out of what we are delivering. And that's really what's driving the adoption of SaaS. It's easy to use, it gets you to outcomes quicker, and I don't need to worry about the management elements of that and so whether it's you take our updates to cloud management, we announced Cloud Assembly, Service Broker, and Code Stream, all delivered as SaaS to our hybrid infrastructure as well as if you want to deploy workloads in AWS or Azure, same thing. AppDefense, Tom's product, is delivered as a SaaS service. VMC on AWS is a managed SaaS service. So you're seeing that come together as VMware. The idea is can we bring that experience on prem as well as in the hybrid cloud? >> Yeah, Milin really interesting topic because often what gets lost when we're talking about multi cloud is what really matters, is applications and the data that sits on top of it. Maybe walk through a little bit, my on premises vs my SASified stuff vs the cloud native and PKS. How much of the business is driven from all of these pieces? >> So the majority of our business right now, is on premise software. Where customers are building and operating the infrastructure with our software. Now the first evolution into SAS was actually with our service providers, who are using the subscription model to deliver VMware as a service to their end customers. And then the second iteration of that is VMware cloud on AWS, which is growing really well. Both in terms of adoption as well of number of customers and now you are seeing the next evolution. So I would say from a numbers standpoint it's low, but in terms of number of customers adopting it, that number is high. So whether it's cloud operations with Wavefront or the whole automations suite that was launched, AppDefense. We are starting to see the shift to SAS but I would say the majority of our customers are on on prem software with VMware cloud foundation which includes NSX, and a visualized management portfolio which has been driving the majority of the revenue. >> I got to ask you about NSX relative to the cloud services because one of the things we've been pontificating and analyzing is how multi cloud is really going to work and we always try to compare and contrast to networking because Stu and I love networking and storage and some of the infrastructure stuff but if you go back into the evolution of TCPIP and what that did for the industry and Gelsinger likes to talk about this too, is NSX the kind of enabler that TCPIP was? TCP and then you had IP, created a lot of value, in inter-networking. What does the customer challenge look like when you're doing multi-cloud? It's not trivial it's hard to do. Is there a inter-operability framework, is it NSX? What could that be? >> Great question. I think as we go from private, to public, to the edge the virtual cloud network is what connects it all together and so definitely from within the data center with now the Velo Cloud acquisition the WAN, and then layering it with analytics and observability with visualized network insight, the portfolio of NSX allows you to connect these disparate data islands and operate very seamlessly, in this hybrid cloud world. Now the same construct applies, when you go native public cloud, where you can connect into AWS or an Azure and that's where, again the Velo Cloud acquisition alongside how NSX is extending its security policy, into AWS and Azure so that you can get the same security posture on prem, at the Edge, in VMC on AWS, with our VCP providers, as well as Native AWS and native Azure. So definitely NSX is that connective tissue, that's why we call it the Virtual Cloud Network, connects the Hybrid Cloud to the Multi Cloud. >> Seamlessly? >> Seamlessly. >> One of the feedbacks I get from users is, you know multi-cloud is challenging. There's that big elephant, how do I get my arms around all of the pieces where'll my data lives? Maybe give us an update there. I did have a chat with Joe Kinsella on theCUBE yesterday. So if CloudHealth Technologies fits into that overall cloud management piece, I'm sure it does, and you can give a little bit of guidance? I'd like to understand how that fits. >> Yes, you know we talked a lot about SAS and delivering VMware services as SAS to vSphere customers but there's this other world where people are going native AWS, native Azure, native GCP. The interesting thing I tell folks is it's very easy to consume cloud but as you start consuming it, you start dealing with tens of thousands of objects, across multiple projects, hundreds of projects across thousands of users. And when you start looking at the problem statements, same things, visibility, lack of visibility, resource management, you tend to over provision to in the cloud, right? By now you're paying by the drip so there's a definite impact to the bottom line. End to end observability and then configuration compliance. Think about this, you're operating at 10X in terms of changes, the chances of making a configuration mistake like leaving an S3 bucket open, are quite high. >> We've seen examples of that, too. >> Exactly, many a CIO have been fired because of that issue. So what we've been seeing with our customers is this has become a data problem, right? So the acquisition of CloudHealth allows us to essentially provide a platform that has that data, and then deliver to our customers in the native cloud, visibility, I say cost management so using reserved instances over on demand, resource management, hey your old provision on your elastic block storage we can reduce the storage capacity and save money. I can optimize RDS better. Sequel right sizing in Azure, so resource management becomes very interesting. Returns on a typical customer with CloudHealth are upwards of 60%. When you take that into consideration with real time security configuration, Secure State was just announced in beta, this week so real time security configuration. When that mistake happens with an S3 bucket being open? Sub 10 seconds we will notify the user that there is a mis-configuration in the cloud, please go fix it. >> Yeah, I'm curious, one of the other challenges is when I have, especially using lots of different SAS providers, public cloud, private cloud, data protection is a big challenge there. I know VMware has a lot of ecosystem partners, one of the hottest things over the couple years. Is that primarily an ecosystem play? How does VMware position there? >> Yeah so in the hybrid cloud world, like you said we have a very strong ecosystem, multiple vendors here exhibiting, there will be some default elements that we bring into vSAN to help kind of the basics of data, you know back up and management but we will definitely continue to partner with our ecosystem when it comes to an aggregate stack of data management but there will be pockets of just simple back up capabilities that you'll start seeing in vSAN, I think we announced the beta of that this week. >> Talk about your organization, do the general managers, do you have a profit loss responsibility so do you have revenue? >> Yes. >> Talk about the team, how you guys are set up. How big is the team? What's the focus? >> Our team, there's two elements to my team. One is my team drives cloud service across VMware so there are folks developing services themselves. The size of the team is now 70 strong across product, marketing and engineering. And then I also work with my counterparts like Mark Lohmeyer, AJ Singh who are building services on our common platform, right? And it's an aggregate to the customer, they come to cloud.vmware.com they federate their enterprise identity, they log in, they see our catalog. It's like a Netflix-like catalog. You can subscribe to it, you get a common experience in terms of billing and essentially start using the services. So it's not only what my team builds but an aggregate what VMware is building and offering to our end users. >> And what go to market do you have? Which products are you doing that go to market for? >> It's all of our SAS based cloud services. We collectively drive the go to market for that as a team working with our corporate marketing team. >> Awesome. >> Yep. >> So that would be a combination of VMware on AWS, AppDefense, now Secure State, Wavefront, and very soon CloudHealth. >> Yeah, a lot of pressure. (laughing) >> Do the SAS product share, do they live in like the AWS marketplace, IBM, you know DOC or what? Where can they get all of them? >> Today you go to cloud.vmare.com and subscribe to them. Certain offers are starting to get into AWS Marketplace, so CloudHealth is actually in the AWS marketplace. >> Sure, sure. >> And we are looking at Wavefront, which is a hidden jewel in our portfolio is also we are thinking about how can get it into the respective marketplaces of Azure, GCP, and others. But today if you want to access any of these services, you simply go and trial it by just going to our website and starting a trial. >> So they've given you all the new stuff, make it happen. AWS, VMware, AWS, vice versa. RDS on premises, you doing that as well? >> Yes. RDS on vSphere, since the announce we've had phenomenal conversations over here. >> Yeah, it's really exciting, I think people don't understand how big this is. >> John, I had a phenomenal conversation with Yanbing and Christos from the storage and availability business who just really broke down how all of that worked in detail. >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> The customer interest is high. Someone asked me, why RDS? And they said it's such a hard problem and that was my point exactly, there is such a pain when it comes to managing databases and just like everything else, we started off the conversation, customers want a managed service. They don't want to deal with the intricacies of managing databases, they just want the outcomes from how they access databases. Amazon has solved it very elegantly with RDS, it's one of their most popular services. Why not bring it on prem? So that's been a great engineering partnership we are driving with them, and I'm really excited to bring it to market, shortly. >> Well we're looking forward to keeping in touch, we wanted to actually follow up with you on that. It's a story we're going to be following, certainly developing, it's big news, we love it. Thanks for coming on and spending the time. I got to get you to put a prediction out there for 2019. What do you see happening in 2019 that we're going to be talking about next year at VMworld? Personal prediction, could be a VMware prediction. You've seen a lot of what's going on with NSX, you see what's going on in the big picture, wholistically what is the prediction for 2019? >> It might be a boring prediction, but I fundamentally believe this notion of hybrid being bi-directional in nature. I think you'll see more of that. Even Google announced GKE on vSphere, as an example. So I think you will see more of that come through and it won't be a one way destination conversation that we keep having. And you will see VMware truly be a multicloud company. It won't matter if you're deploying the application in the native cloud, or in a vSphere based cloud. We will help the customer where they land the application. My firm belief is next year when we are here, we'll be talking about stories about how we are helping scale customers in Azure and AWS and GCP on one end, and about how we brought cloud on prem with services like RDS. >> Final question, I'm going to put you on the spot. What do you think is the biggest disruptive enabler for the next 10 years in this bi-directional multi cloud world? Can you point to one this that says, that's going to be the disruptive enabler for the next 10 to 20 years? Is there something out there you can point to, trend, technology, the standard? >> So the way I think about the world is a little bit differently in terms of I truly believe that we are getting inundated by data. I'm not talking about the data that you store in terms of running your business but in terms of the metadata that you run your operations and your infrastructure with. And I believe that the layer that will control that portion, the metadata of infrastructure and applications, we have not even begun to understand where that goes and then you apply AI and ML techniques to that? The idea of, I'll throw a term around here, self driving data centers and self optimizing applications I get really excited but it all begins with that data layer. And we are starting to put the beginning signs with CloudHealth, our private cloud assets to start that process. I'm really excited about how AI/ML meets that data layer to achieve those outcomes. >> It automates IT operations, sounds like automation's coming. Milin, thanks for coming on. Milin Desai, he's the vice president general manager of VMware's cloud services. The hottest area, it's emerging, it's got a lot of attention. We'll be following it, of course, on siliconANGLE and Wikibon and theCUBE. We're day three coverage here in the broadcast booth in Las Vegas in the VM village. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman, stay with us for more after this short break. (upbeat techno music)

>> Live from Las Vegas. It's theCUBE. Covering VM World 2018. Brought to you by VMware and Adziko System partners. >> Welcome back to the Mandalay Bay everybody in Las Vegas. My name is Dave Vellante, I'm here with David Floyer. This is day three of our wall to wall coverage of VMworld 2018. We've got two sets here in the VM Village. 94 guests this week. It's a record for the CUBE. Thanks so much for watching. I've been in this business as long as Pat Gelsinger and ever since I've been in this business people have said, "oh infrastructure's dying", and you know what, storage is the gift that keeps on giving. And I just, we love the conversations. Guys from Infinidat are here. Jacob Broido is the Chief Product Officer and Neville Yates is the Senior Director of Data Protection Solutions at Infinidat. Gentlemen, welcome to theCUBE. Happy VMworld 2018. >> Thank you >> Thank you >> All right Jacob, I'm going to start with you. >> Okay. >> So we have seen Infinidat come in. You're basically competing with all flash arrays, you're faster than Flash, and that's your sort of tag line. So you have this system designed for primary storage and then all of a sudden, you know last summer, around last summer, maybe it was the fall. We see you guys entering the data protection market with essentially the same architecture. How is it that you can take a system that's designed for primary storage faster than Flash, and then point it at data protection. Help us understand. >> That's a great question. So, it all starts with the fact that we designed our system to work with mixed workloads. And primary storage being our first keypoint, but the design and architecture supposed to work with any type of workload. And what we started seeing in the field is that our customers first displaced a lot of incumbent primary storage on us. And then we started seeing them putting backup workloads as well, and data protection workloads on our systems as well, and coming back and saying that this works amazingly led to more of that. This basically led us to a point of expanding on that strategy and introducing additional products and services. The key point for us in this was that it was remarkably easy for us to introduce additional capabilities because of the solid technical and architectural foundation. We're very fast. Our financial model enables us to do and go after the data protection market efficiently, and we're seeing this in the field. >> So Neville help us, paint a picture for us. You've got a long history in the data protection market. You were involved in disrupting tape, you've been a consultant in this space working with customers. What's the market sort of look like, the sort of available market for you guys? >> So when Jacob refers to the expansion into data protection, we took this technology as Jacob describes the InfiniBox, and we didn't just expand in one direction. We expanded in two directions, multi-direct, with the introduction of of InfiniSync, which is a means by which critical applications can enable a recovery point of zero, Jacob will go into more details on that. And then at the other end of the spectrum, we deliver a deploying InfiniGuard. Based on the same technology that Jacob described as the core, we're now able to be the target of factual re-enter, the typical grandfather/father/son, every 24-hours you do a backup, you do an incremental. And with deduplication as a front end to the core storage, now we've got a coverage across a data protection spectrum that nobody else can match. Recovery point of zero, leveraging replication technologies that Jacob will expand upon in a minute, Snap technology internal to InfiniBox, integrated with backup applications such as the dash-board management is all consistent, and then further down the spectrum, the InfiniGuard itself, dealing with the traditional kind of data protection schemes. A complete spectrum coverage. Nobody else can deliver it. Built on that technology core to the InfinityBox storage itself. >> So you got the full pyramid covered with the same fundamental architecture. But Jacob, you can't just throw the Box at data protection, you have to bring in other features, you got to be best of breed. So maybe you can talk a little bit about, double-click on some of those. >> Sure. So it all starts with kind of base foundation for our data protection that is InfiniSnaps. It's our snapshot core engine which from day one, we designed to work at multi-petabyte scale, and for us what that means is that you need to support hundred-thousands of snapshots and up to multiple millions. That's by design how we designed the system. But not only that, you have to have zero impact on performance. If you look at our systems in the field, our customers are doing thousands of snapshots per day. Some are doing tens of thousands or more per day with no performance impact, that's not even measurable on any of their performance graphs. This is the foundational technology on which we have built our forward looking additional data protection technologies. So, if we look upper in the pyramid of overall solutions for data protection, after that we introduce our asynchronous replication which is based on that snapshot technology for us. The reason we had such an efficient and groundbreaking snapshot technology, enables us to do the lowest RPO protection for async replication when comparing to any storage product on the market. We're talking about four seconds RPO, and this is something that no other vendor was able to do, because snapshots break at that pace. It's very hard to create and delete snapshots at scale at a such a short interval. >> Without performance degradation. >> Exactly, exactly. We were able to do this. And this is kind of one example of how our early days architectural planning and investment in our product architecture pays off year after year with every new feature. That's why it seems easy for now when we release features quickly, because we have such a solid technical foundation. >> One of the things that I was really fascinated by, was your purchase of Axxana. And how have you been able to use that to get this RTO zero, that you're claiming on that? I mean if you look at the marketplace at the moment, it seems to be that the storage vendors in general are owning this whole space of RTO, lower-RTO's, et cetera. >> That's a great question, but before we get into details about that I want to cover a kind of foundational technology for that, that enabled us to do this. And that is our synchronous replication within InfiniBox already. Which is also built on top of our async, which in turn, built on top of our snapshots. With our synchronous replication within InfiniBox, we're delivering the lowest possible latency for sync replication today. Just to give you an example of how low and how efficient that is, systems that are running synchronous replication on top of InfiniBox are having lower latency than a single all-flash array writing locally. Just imagine what it means. We're able to do the round trip right to another array, and complete the whole work faster than you'll have an all-flash array, a typical all-flash array doing. Now that foundational technology also is a key part of our InfiniSync implementation. Because what we did, we took a great product which comes from Axxana, which is the hardened black box, capable of withstanding any type of disaster, fire, floods, earthquake, whatever. And we essentially integrated it very closely with InfiniBox sync replication, where we're writing this very efficient low-latency sync operations to our InfiniSync appliance, and essentially enabling RPO zero over in the distance. So if you look at it from the heart things perspective which is the data path, we had existing capability, which is our sync replication within the array. We just had to integrate it with another great product, Axxana, and that essentially was more than anything an integration work rather than from scratch development. Because again, this is part of our philosophy, we plan ahead as far a our product, road map, and strategy, and when you lay out the foundation early on, you get to the point where some things look easy, because they were pre-made and prepared early on. >> So that's the tip of the pyramid. For those mission critical applications where you need RPO zero, you've now enabled customers to do that for much lower cost than let's say for instance, the three site data center. >> Yep. >> What about the sort of fat middle, Neville, of data protection, I think you guys call it InfiniGuard. Right? That's kind of your solution there. >> So InfiniGuard simply is InfiniBox storage, with all of it's resiliency and performance, and algorithms that outperform typical arrays, and in front of that we've integrated deduplication engines. These deduplication engines present themselves as targets to the traditional backup ecosystem, receive data, de-duplicate it, and use the resources of InfiniBox storage integrated into the InfiniGuard. And, it's been received well, because its ability to deliver aggressive recovery time objectives, because of its performance in terms of resource speeds. The traditional systems that have been designed ten or fifteen years ago were okay at doing backups, they were purposely built for backup processes. They suffer greatly as a byproduct of the process of deduplication, and the IO profile that that generates. InfiniGuard breaks through that, because of its performance in the underlying storage, in order to drive RTO's, for the recovery of those files that are under the 24-hour sort of data protection cycle. And the customers are receiving it well. They are amazed at the performance, the reliability, and the simplicity within which that fits into the existing ecosystem. So it completes. InfiniSync, InfiniGuard, with InfiniBox at the core in the middle. >> And so you partner with the backup software vendors. >> Of course. >> You're not writing your own backup software, right? >> No no no. So integration, Veeam, the ConVals, the Veritas OST's, et cetera. A little further integration when it comes to InfiniBox Snap technology. That is integrated into backup applications such as ConVal or Veeam. Specifically, you can use their dashboard and their scheduling scheme to trigger the snap that then is taken care of in InfiniBox. So, it's quite a comprehensive deliverable against the whole data protection paradigm. >> And have you made a cloud of that now? With your new service? >> Not yet, but as Jacob said, there's the vision, we are always building strategically, slightly ahead of the curve. So you can imagine that that's not lost on the radar screen. >> Right. >> I see this as a return on asset play. In other words, I've got the architecture, I've got my processes and procedures in place, I don't have to go out and buy a purpose built appliance for data protection now, I can use the asset that's on my floor, that people are trained on, what are your thoughts? >> Absolutely, it seems to me that you have, uh simplified tremendously, all of those previous steps, that took one to another to another, and put them all in the same box, and used the same technologies, to achieve much better end to end results. I think it's excellent. >> You're absolutely correct, and it's deliverable in a timely fashion, because the foundation is so strong. The investment that we made from day one, to make sure that that storage architecture was able to deliver the storage services at the right cost point, at the right resiliency, at the right performance levels, is the means by which we're able to accomplish that. No one else can do it. >> And there's another arc to this story. That we're constantly, we're continually investing into that foundation. Every, our customers, the one unique thing that they experience with us, is that their systems get better every time, every release that we have, every month they get better. Not only on performance, which is obvious, in that our systems are improving all the time. >> As opposed to the normal expectation is that >> Yes. >> as you fill it up it gets worse. >> Yeah. We are actually delivering the opposite. Our customers that are buying the system today, know that, the ones that experienced InfiniBox, know that it will become better over time. And that expands the whole spectrum. It's performance, it's reliability, but it also futures it. All of the things that we discussed here, were delivered free of charge through our software upgrade to our existing InfiniBox customers. And, without disclosing something specific looking forward, there are many more things in that area coming up pretty soon from us. >> Very innovative. You guys always solve problems differently, cutting against the conventional wisdom. You see, VMworld, a lot of glam. A lot of big market. And you guys, I was at your customer dinner the other night. A lot of happy customers. A very intimate event. And a lot of good belly to belly conversations. So congratulations. Final thoughts from each of you on VMworld 2018, the future of Infinidat, anything you want to share with us? Go ahead, Neville. >> Good show, the clients, the prospects that I've spoken to here, they get to open their minds in terms of our solution-offering, and it's generated a lot of interest, and it's going to be a good remainder of the year and a good 2019. >> Great, Jacob, final words from you. >> I agree as well. And we're, I'm seeing customers that are actually reaching out to new prospects for us, and telling the story of Infinidat, and that's catching on. And it's great to see that. >> Jacob, Neville, thanks very much for coming to theCUBE. Bringing you all the action from VMworld 2018, I'm Dave Vellante, for David Floyer. You're watching theCUBE, and we'll be right back after this short break. (light electronic music)

>> Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE. Covering VMworld 2018. Brought to you by VMware and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome inside the VM Village at VMworld 2018 where we have a nice, big set. Double set of theCUBE. I'm Stu Miniman, joined with my co-host John Troyer and wait, Keith Townsend? >> Did you mess up the intro? >> Oh my gosh. (Keith chuckling) Luckily, the great thing about VMworld is it's got a great community. Remember a couple of years ago, had a couple of my staff that weren't going to be here and I'm like oh my gosh, what do we do? So I reached out to community members. John Troyer, Keith Townsend. I said hey, guys, how'd you like to do some CUBE stuff? Keith did a whole bunch of CUBE with us for a couple of years and something happened. You decided to go and take a real job? >> Evidently, you can't live off borrowed time for too long. It catches up with you. But VMware, obviously, world-class organization. I've been on the other side interview folks on here so I've gotten a good window in to the org over the past couple of years, thanks to theCUBE. >> Yeah, well, Keith, look, first of all, thank you for all the time you did. We call you the once and future guest host of theCUBE. (both laughing) So we have not seen the end of Keith Townsend, the CTO Advisor. You're now a solutions architect, though, at VMware. If people want, go read Keith's blog. Great resource to the community as to looking at jobs. Keith didn't apply to VMware once or twice, it was one of those you keep trying and eventually you found a pretty sweet job. >> Yeah. >> Maybe give us a little insight as to what brought you, what excited you to come join VMware? You've know the community, been a vExpert. Been a watcher and a partner and a customer of VMware. What's it like being inside, wearing that logo? >> I've said on theCUBE, a couple of times, VMware moves at the speed of the CIO. You can take that one of two different ways. You can say VMware is really slow organization, or they go right where the CIO needs them to go. The thing the intrigued me about VMware all the time is that no company is better positioned to walk through digital transformation than VMware. As seen by the announcements this morning. VMware is struggling through, we're struggling through to find our way through what it is that the right combination of partnerships, technologies, people, process to help companies transition to this new digital age and that is an exciting thing to be a part of. >> Definitely interesting times. I'm sure there's a number of companies that would say hi, Microsoft, Amazon, and the like, that we think we're pretty well positioned to lead companies to where you need to go. But definitely interesting stuff in the keynote. That maturation of cloud and networking. Put your CTO Advisor hat on there. How're they doing? >> This is where I got, I tweeted it out earlier that man, I got to be careful, because some of the stuff that I want to tweet I'm like, oh, I can't say that as a VMware employee. But I can say definitely, I was surprised at the RDS announcement and people love the VMware ESXi on ARM. Two amazing announcements, but what really excited me was the RDS announcement. On theCUBE, I've pushed Chris Wolf, I've pushed Lee Caswell, all of these GMs, these BU GMs, about when is the innovation going to come out of VMware again? Let's not just get V1 updates. Why should somebody upgrade from vSphere 5.5 to 6.7? Give us a compelling reason. I think this morning we heard some really compelling stuff. RDS on vSphere is, I can't overstate how disruptive of an innovation that is. >> That could be really interesting. I like what you said in the beginning about the digital transformation. I think we also heard this morning the word digital foundation a lot, which is, again, one of my goals here for this show, Stu and Keith, is to pin down what does VMware do? What does it do? And it's not quite fair, because it has quite a wide portfolio but it seems to me, Keith, that it feels like the early days when I was there. You had to work with a whole set of OEMs in the hypervisor and some of the same things are happening with a whole bunch of clouds and working as a neutral Switzerland or partners with all them. But I was actually wanting to pivot over a little bit over to you as a communicator and as a member of the community. You were a customer. You worked for a large pharmaceutical company and ran a lot of billion dollars worth of stuff. You chose to become a communicator and an explainer and to be part of the learning process and buying process as an independent. Now back on the vendor side. Is there anything in that journey you've learned about 2018 about how people learn and how IT people figure this stuff. How do I even know where to go or what to buy or even what to consider? Any insights into that? >> So John, that's a really great question. I went on a run this morning, the vFit Run. We do it every year at VMworld and I was with VMUG CEO, Brad Tompkins. And we actually talked about this. vSphere admins want all the vSphere content that they can consume. In reality, they need to transition from just being focused on vSphere, vSphere, vSphere, and VXLAN and NSX to this broader picture. Pat on stage this morning talked through PKS, which is Kubernetes, he talked a little bit of serverless. I mean, from a CEO of a software company, that was a lot to consume just on the stage this morning. So you can be a deer in the headlights and think, what should I focus on? I think the thing to focus on, one of my peers gave a talk, well two of my peers, Craig Fletcher, who brought me into VMware, and Joseph Griffith, gave a talk today on culture. And this is about culture. The culture to learn and grow. You don't necessarily have to learn a specific technology, but you should most definitely have the attitude that if the CXO comes to me and asks me about X business process, I need to know a high level answer to that and how do I get there? Simple, simple steps is learn your business processes. I'll throw just one out there. Order to cash. Every organization has some process from when they either request money, they place an order, and how they eventually get paid. If you learn that process, the technology bits I think fall in place. >> Yeah it's an interesting point. I've talked to some of the users here, and they were a little bit overwhelmed this morning. I don't think there's anybody at this show, that if you put them in front of the CEO of their company, and said, okay tell me everything VMware's doing. (Keith laughing) Nobody can explain that. Nobody inside VMware nobody out. There's too much. Part of the answer I get all the time, is how do I keep up? Look, you're not going to keep up on everything. You need to have, I think the role you're in now Keith, is part of helping customers understand what are the things they need to understand, what are the steps they can be taking in the areas they need to learn and the things they can lean on you and your partners to get there. Is that a fair statement? >> Yeah I did a podcast with Brian Gracely maybe about a year, a year and half ago and we talked about this very topic. At the highest level, you just need, from a CIO perspective, CIO, CTO, and if you don't have a CTO, that's probably step one. But from a CIO perspective, you need someone who can just think about big picture, how the moving parts work. And then you need people to go deep and different areas. I talked to a financial services senior VP and he was talking through how he needed today a Pivotal guy But tomorrow that Pivotal guy would not need to be a Pivotal guy but a Kubernetes guy specifically. And how that guy would morph into something else so he's structured in his organization. So that he can, hey today, this guy or gal knows this technology stack but more important, they know systems and they can adjust and learn the technology that they need to learn to be effective. Because even as an analyst, near the end of the CTO Advisor as a full time opportunity, I thought about focusing all on VMware, because the company's that big now. Pat on stage said one of the things they learned from AWS, is how to add features every quarter. Stu, if I told you five years ago VMware would add a feature every quarter, the culture just isn't there, until now. >> Yeah, so, Keith, that's a really interesting point. That pace of change, because most people when you talk about vSphere upgrades, it was oh wow. It came out every year, every year and a half or so like that >> That's too fast >> I'm usually a couple generations behind. Every quarter there's no way I'm going to do that. We still have a bit of an impedance mismatch. When I go use the cloud, some of the base things happen under line. But other things I still need to choose or there's automation that will help me. How do we help CIOs, IT businesses to get to this more fluid, dynamic, upgradeable environment compared to the oh wait I need to consciously think about when do I upgrade, when do I move, how do I make those changes? >> So we have to get out of this mindset that IT is in this constant ops mode. Whether it's vSphere and the announcements that were made today or any other platform. We add no value by engineering upgrades. Putting time into designing and testing the upgrade from vSphere 6.7 to vSphere 6.7 update 1 really doesn't add value at the end of the day. VMware made critical announcements about the path to having VMware manage that. VMware cloud on AWS is a great example but the technologies are out there where we're no longer consuming our OSes. There's Linux distributions, there's Windows 10 will be the last version of Windows desktop ever and we'll get those updates directly from Microsoft. So we need to get out of the mindset that we add value as executives to managing upgrades and move our organizations where we're consuming these things as the black boxes they should be. >> Alright, so Keith, last question. What's surprised you so much, so far inside of VMware? >> You know what? I'm going to give an honest, raw answer to that, Stu. I'm not used to competing against my friends. (Stu laughing) It's one of those things, you know what, you got to make money, you got to win deals but both me and you have made a lot of friends, and John, we've made a lot of friends in this community. And you run into situations where you're pitting your technology against someone you just had dinner with last night or the week before at the last conference. And you've known for years and they're actually your friend. And keeping that competitive nature but at the same time maintaining your friendship, that's been surprisingly interesting. >> Alright, well hey, Keith, pleasure to catch up with you, as always, you're always welcome on our program in one of these seats. And yeah, absolutely, what I love about this community is that I see lots of people that are friends that are fierce competitors but they're grabbing out, hanging out at parties, taking selfies together, doing stuff like that. So, community, definitely key themes. Keith, thank you for being our community guest for today. Day one of three days live wall-to-wall coverage here in Las Vegas, VMworld 2018. For John Troyer, the CTO Advisor Keith Townsend, I'm Stu Miniman, thank you for watching theCUBE. (techno music)

>> Announcer: From New York, it's theCUBE. Covering Blockchain Week. Now, here's John Furrier. >> Hello everyone and welcome back to theCUBE coverage here exclusively at the block party, at the Crypto-House's part of Blockchain Week in New York City, Blockchain New York. Also, Consensus 2018 is having a variety of other events. I'm here with Allan Rothstein, the co-founder of Strategic Coin, also managing partner at Decentralized Ventures. Hey welcome to this Cube conversation. Nights, night party here, exclusive event here in the East Village, thanks for joining me. >> Thank you, thank you for having me. >> So, co-founder of Strategic Coins doing some great work in the maturization of this sector. Still in the first in the half inning, bottom of the first, some would say but also Decentralized Ventures, which I love the name because what does it mean? I mean, it means crypto, token economics, block chain, brand new field. >> Exactly. >> Emerging very very fast. >> And it's global, so it's decentralized. Right now we're in Malta, but we're going all over the world, Estonia, other countries because that's where this market is going. >> So for the folks that don't really grock all that, how would you describe it to your friend that says Hey Allan, what is this all about? What is this decentralized tokens, ICOs, blockchain, bottom line me, what's going on? >> Blockchain is probably the first really global business model that is not controlled by anybody, by any single government, by any single company, by any single industry. It dis-intermediates all of these industries that are filled with middle-men and which prevent end users and peers from interacting with each other. >> I was told by some guy I was interviewing in Puerto Rico, you know the United States is the place where all the money went into because that's where the entrepreneurial energy was. And Europe was the entity that was slow, antiquated, all these rules, hard to make money, hard to be a capitalist. He goes: "now, the United States is turning into Europe." We are the new Europe in the US and all the money is going outside the US, into massively growing middle-class economies outside the United States. And the perfect storm is the crypto token economic model, where money is just running hard. Your thoughts on that comment and reaction. >> I think it's exactly right, and more importantly the road blocks being set up by the US government are not only sending the economics to other places in the world, they're actually sending the technologies to other places in the world. So I've lived in New York all of my life, I've been on Wall Street; the reason I'm setting up in Malta is exactly for that reason. Because it is very difficult to work in Blockchain and crypto here. We don't know what the definition is. The IRS says that cryptos are property. SEC says that they're securities. SFTC says they're commodities. The FED says they're currencies. So you have four different agencies claiming jurisdiction and you don't know who to report to. You don't know what the rules are. >> And all the service providers like law firms, and advisories, accountings, they all come to a screeching halt because they don't know what to say. They don't want to get sued. Entrepreneurs give up, that stifles innovation. >> It stifles innovation, but it, more importantly, it's really sending potentially the most important technology overseas. And you have other jurisdictions that are grabbing at it. You've got Bermuda, I work with the government in Malta, and they are setting up what they call Blockchain Island. They are setting up a crypto-friendly regime. This will be the first EU country with a full set of regulations. It's not that the regulations are easy but you know what the rules are. And at the moment, that's the only EU country that you know all the rules. >> As all these regulations, I mean GDPR is happening this month, I still think that's a shit show, in my opinion, but we'll see what happens there. This is, all these regulations, I get it, but I think that as the economy starts to go global, it's a competitive opportunity for our country and nation to be a digital nation and do it right. And also, people need advisory. What the hell is the playbook? You can't just go to the manual, there's no manual for this. There's no playbook. Strategic Coin, Decentralized Ventures, other leaders in the community on the finance side are pushing the envelope to try and lead by example. Because, as you just said, things are pretty much sideways from a regulatory standpoint. >> Yeah, that's exactly what we do. So at Strategic Coin, we help with jurisdiction. We help with the regulations, we try and direct companies to understand what they're dealing with. We do deep research for companies, we help them work on the corporate side, we really help them navigate some very difficult and choppy waters. >> What's the biggest challenge that companies have right now? Is it domicile, is it token economics? >> The biggest challenge is, there are two. One is regulation, knowing what the rules are. Second one is banking. Without regulation, bank will not allow companies who are getting funding from crypto to open accounts and accept funds. Once regulation is in place, the banks understand that they're no longer at risk of violating laws because they know what the laws are. So banking, in particular is a real issue around the world. >> What's the overseas outlook, obviously age is booming, there's been some, you know here sound here and there, shut it down, build it out, other countries are saying we're going to be the first global Wall Street, clearing out crypto, the Fiat, moving it around. This is all up in the air. Who's leading and who's not leading? >> Right now, obviously Malta's leading because of the first EU country with a full set of regulations that they've proposed. Singapore is looking to do this. South Korea is starting to now turn. They were looking to shut down exchanges and they're actually now starting to realize that they're just sending business and technology overseas. >> What's your story these days, what are you working on? What did you do last week? Did you fly to South Korea, I mean you traveling a lot? What kind of, what are you working on? What kind of things? Give me a little taste of how your life goes every day? What are some of the challenges, opportunities you're working on? >> Well, one of the challenges is trying to filter all of the business that is actually coming to us with Strategic Coin and with Decentralized Ventures. We can handle the business because we have a lot of the answers that people are looking for. >> So you need to hire people? >> We are continuing to hire people. What's important with Strategic Coin is that we're hiring Wall Street people. We're hiring veterans in the industry. Many of these companies out there now are 25 year old kids, mom and pops, who really don't even understand what they're looking at. >> You know, baseball, the old expression about a five tool player, what's the equivalent, crypto young gun that you look for? What are the attributes that you look for in a candidate that really can handle the pressure. I mean it's not pressure, it's really just more of the pace. You need smarts, you got to have energy, got to have integrity but also you got to push the envelope. >> They have to work about 35 hours a day. They have to have the capacity to really continue to learn very very quickly to understand, to take direction. And to really understand what this business looks like and where it's going. >> And good money making opportunities as well. >> There are tremendous money making opportunities as there are in any new industry, in any new technology. >> Before we came on camera, we were talking about your background, some of the things you've done entrepreneurially and also growth. What's your assessment of the current wave we're in? Compared, you seen many waves, of all the waves, compare and contrast order of magnitude, this wave versus other waves. >> What's interesting about this wave is there have been paradigm changes in industry, technology, and they've taken generations. So, an understanding of how that change happens, generally is from text books, you had the industrial revolution and first software revolution in these generations for people my age, or people in their 40's. You've seen the software revolution then you've seen the internet revolution and now you're seeing this, so you actually have experience in seeing how these play out. And that's part of the reason that this technology is moving so quickly. I know how it's going to go, I've seen how it's going because I was involved in the internet. >> Software economics, you've seen software economics before, you know what it looks like. >> I've seen software and I've seen internet. And with blockchain, we know blockchain is here, and we don't know what use it's going to be, we know a lot of these companies are going to fall by the wayside. We know a lot of these companies set up a mom and pop will disappear and we know a lot of these ICOs will be acquired by bigger ICOs who have more experience. >> Well you know, just to add two things to that list of awesome commentary is add in open source software and cloud computing and you got the perfect storm. On top of what you just said, that is the magic. Alright, so I got to ask you for the young people out there, what's your advise, or if you could talk to your 22 year old self right now, what would you say to yourself, walking into this new landscape that's exploding with opportunity, change in all theaters? >> That's a really good question. I would say to try and find mentors, learn from industry veterans, as opposed to setting up your own shop, setting up your own ICO, thinking you're going to raise 50 million dollars and you're going to conquer the world by the time you're 25. >> Allan, thanks for coming on to share. I know you had a big party, we're having a great time here. Thanks for taking a minute out of the networking and schmoozing and to come in and speak with us on theCUBE here in New York City. >> Thank you. >> Alright, I'm John Furrier, we're here at Blockchain Week, New York, of course theCUBE's continuing coverage. Go to siliconangle.com, thecube.net for all the videos. We'll be at Consensus 2018 all week. More coverage on Silicon Angle and thecube.net. I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching.

>> Announcer: From New York it's theCUBE covering Blockchain Week. Now here's John Furrier. >> Everyone I'm John Furrier, the cofounder and cohost of theCUBE. We're here in New York City for exclusive coverage of Blockchain Week New York put out with a variety of events. One is Consensus 2018 sold out packed house as well as another event Cryptohou.se here in East Village for a great event. And I'm here with Patty Perez who's the owner of the Cryptohou.se, used to live here. Hey thanks for having us today and I want to What's the story, you own this place. It's now a great venue for inspiring a lot of entrepreneurs who couldn't have an outlet to have their voice heard. >> Well originally this was my yoga school. It was a live work house for ten years and I closed it seven years ago and just lived here and, and now I'm ready for my next venue and I was telling my boyfriend that, you know, I really want to do something with my house. Sort of like the yoga school, but I'm so excited and interested in Blockchain for the last year and wouldn't it be great to have a social club or an education hub for this because I have no idea what's going on and I want to learn. And so why not have all the thought leaders come to my house and, and teach each other and just open it up to all of us because I know you're learning every day. I know I am. >> That's fantastic, and then in forces they learn the whole time and that's why they make some influences, but I think what's important here that I want to just share and it's a great story and I think you really deserve a lot of credit for it is that it's a venue for people to not only learn and share their experiences but it's also an outlet for some collaboration in the open in a way that's community based. It's not like a structured event, big tent event, sponsors everywhere, you know, make money. This is about people, the community having a access. And so I got to ask you when did this happen? Like just, 'cause I love this place. >> Well we've been coconspiring it and I've been speaking with Strategic Coin like come on, let's do this, let's do this at my house and they're so busy with you know a million projects and but somehow the waters parted and here we are and we got a great team together and Strategic Coin has been just amazing and >> Well I got to tell you in California, last week I was in San Francisco for some events, Red Hat Summit, big open source community. Of course we watched the Twittersphere and the Snapchat sphere, Instagrams, Facebooks of the world all that place. You guys had great buzz over the weekend and even coming in yesterday and today. A lot of great community conversations, not just people promoting their, their event at like Consensus, hey come to our booth. There's just authentic knowledge being shared on the digital sphere and that works, that connects with people so congratulations. >> There's a great need obviously, above and beyond us or anyone, it's so organic and today, yesterday there were a series of speakers and they were all amazing and interesting but today the conference took on what we coined as the unconference and sure enough it was more of a boxing ring than a conference, of debating and just sort of being in the vulnerable place of actually not knowing something and being in the inquiry in that uncomfortable space and people felt so comfortable to take deep dives into what they're actually wanting to create or, you know, so it's-- >> That's great progress too, when you have a debate and not have to worry about being judged doing a learning exercise. >> Exactly, and you don't have to, you know, look a certain way or have your, you know everyone was really like, you know what? And you don't know what you're talking about. It's like wait a minute. >> Sounds like my Facebook feed. >> (laughs) >> What did you learn this week? What was the big surprise for you? What was a cool thing you've learned? Can you share an anecdote so far from this week? >> Wow, that's a good question, and I have to respond right this moment. Well, the greatest thing that I learned is how much people need education around this. You know it, not just businesses, but everyone because it ignites, I think so. And also one thing that I've noticed more than anything else is that there is an interculteration between the old bankers and the new kids that are really and the old bankers are saying well you kids are idiots. There is an interculturation between the old bankers and the new kids that are really and the old bankers are saying well you kids are idiots. >> Cation like this in a way that can be contentious, offending sometimes, on the other side of the debate. But it's floating in the digital sphere so we believe at theCUBE, we've seen it with content. Good content, authentic, genuine content codeveloped creates community karma, and you're doing that here. >> Yes, I think so, and also one thing that I've noticed more than anything else is that there is an interculturation between the old bankers and the new kids that are really, and the old bankers are saying well you kids are idiots. And the new kids are like oh my God. >> John: Get off my lawn. >> And so it's so much fun just meeting in the middle and it's a whole new culture that's being created. >> Well I was having a conversation with Richard from Arcadia Crypto Partners and I was, and there needs to be some mentoring because this is an opportunity for both. I mean I know some of the smartest guys from Crypto are old dogs and gals, they're out there but the young guns have the energy and the ideas as well so I see a mix and I think it's important that the older generation, if you will, that's like I'm talking about me myself, you know, really kind of let the young kids in-- >> And there's a young kid in you that is so excited right now, I see it in your eyes. >> I wish I was 20 something, I wish I was 20. It's the most exciting wave, I've been involved in a lot of waves of innovation. This one, by far, is the best. >> I see the inner teenager right now. >> Okay we're bonding here on theCUBE. Patty thanks so much for doing what you do and Cryptohou.se is an amazing initiative and project, very strong mission, love the mission, and I love to promote it. Thanks for having us on theCUBE, thanks for having us-- >> Thanks so much, thank you. >> We appreciate it. I'm John Furrier here at the Cryptohou.se for the Block event but there have been events all week as part of Blockchain Week New York. Of course theCUBE is there covering it as usual. Thanks for watching, see you next time.

>> Narrator: Live from Las Vegas. It's the Cube! Covering VMWorld 2017. Brought to you by VMware and it's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back everyone. Live in Las Vegas we are here in the VMware Village, VM Village. We're kicking off day two or ending day two wrap up here. It's the Cube, I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante with our wrap up guests Peter Burris, head of research at Wikibon.com and Stu Miniman co-host of the Cube and analyst of Wikibon. Guys, great day two in the books. Another day tomorrow, another wall-to-wall coverage. Events tonight tonight stacked up, last night great hallway conversation. We covered that on our intro this morning. Day two was about Michael Dell, Pat Gelsinger conversation. A lot of announcements with Google crashing the party, and a one-on-one exclusive with Sam Ramjay who's VP at Product Management, head of Developer Platforms. Not just Google Cloud, they're brinhing all the developers to bear. Peter this telegraphs your point about Google not to be taken lightly. >> Oh yeah well look. We talked about this earlier, and there are some very real thing that have yet to happen. Just contrast this. Three years or two years ago, if you talked to the Google enterprise group and you said to them, well you have some really great opportunities. What are you going to do with them? They'd say, whatever the consumer guys give us, we'll repackage. And now if you see what Google is doing, they're actually going out and creating new partnerships, creating new technology. They're actually acting like a real enterprise company. It's a transformation that's happening very fast. My guess is there's an enormous amount of stuff that's going underneath the covers at the new Google campus. But it's interesting to see that company become a really enterprise player before our eyes, and it's going to be a consequential player. >> Stu and Dave I want to get your reaction to something, because we saw an observation this morning Peter, I think you started out by saying the whole world's upside down, a whole new way to engage the enterprise. You mentioned VMware transforming as a company, similar to what IBM did many years ago. But we saw Michael Dell here, we heard Sanjay Poonen the COO come on, talking about how they're collaborating. He even made reference to Vmware almost merging with-- Kind of hinting to that where there would be showing up at their show working together closely. A new kind of relationship is building on how to be competitive, yet Google and Microsoft have to kind of catch up. And the question on the table is is there dis-economies of scale in that? Can Google get the enterprise IQ to truly understand the digital transformation and bring that developer communication and that operational scale of Google, and can Microsoft bring that enterprise knowledge of Office, Windows, et cetera to the cloud, at the speed of the disruption, at the same time change how they engage? Stu. >> Yeah, so John it's pretty typical we talk about how when some of these technologies started, it's like oh wait no, they're not ready, don't look at them. Public cloud you know was a dirty word at VMware a couple of years ago. Now we're embracing it. I'm sure you talked about Michael Dell. He's a big partner of Microsoft's. They're going to be doing Azure Stack. The Amazon dynamic is amazing. John last year we said to Pat Kelsner, hey Pat you want to come on the Cube at Reinvent? He's like, oh, you're inviting me? Well we had Sanjen Poonen on at that show. I've mentioned it, I was at the AWS Summit in New York City. VMware was a partner presenting there. People are interested to look at it. How this bakes out. There was you know an interesting thing. A tweet went out from Kelsey Hightower. A lot of people in the open source community was like, you know one technology killing the other, and we always said, you know, VM's going to kill Bare Metal and containers will kill that, and server-less will kill that. And it's a joke of course, because nothing ever dies in IT, it's all additive. >> Man: The Hotel California. >> It's you know, we'll talk to IBM and talk about their Z customers that are running mainframe. Oh and you can run Linux and containers on that too. So IT is a complex world. We're all going to have to kind of live in this space. Heck, so many of our guests that we have on this program, we're interviewing them at the second or third or more company that they've been at. So it's the ebbs and flows of the people and the technology, and it's fun to document. >> Well the question is, is it a zero sum game? I've talked to a number of service providers, some of the 4,400. I haven't talked to the 4,400, but a handful. And they're frankly not happy about the AWS deal. Because they're all trying to compete against AWS, and they're just saying, their narrative is, oh, it's a big straw that's just going to suck everything out. But the question is, is it a zero sum game, or-- I mean datacenters booming, enterprise is booming. Is this one of those boom years that everybody benefits? >> Just note on that. VMware got out of VCloud Air. That actually made those 4,400 happier, because now VMware is no longer a threat as well as a partner-- >> However! >> The Amazon stuff and the Google stuff is bringing back-- >> Yeah they never liked VCloud Air, and yes getting out is a good thing. And then next day, boom. >> To me, the other part of the answer is, does a knowledge of the enterprise and how the legacy and traditional applications matter? And the reality is to Stu's point, since you can check in but you can never leave, that at the end of the day, it's going to matter. Your knowledge of how transaction processing works is going to matter. Your knowledge of how Z series handles storage or handles data is going to matter, in the enterprise. And so the reality is, it's not a zero sum game, there's going to be a lot of, because of the complexity, there's going to be an enormous premium place in experience. How you package that experience, how you present it, there's going to be a lot of niches in this marketplace. A lot of ways of getting to that scale. But there's no question that's what most important is getting there fast and early. >> And the big three, obviously Amazon Microsoft Google, all bring something different to the table. And the question is, what view of the cloud do they bring? VMware taps out of the cloud game with VCloud Air, has an arms dealer-like approach Dave. We talk a lot about being an arms dealer. You know Sanjay was teasing out like, you can have these native clouds, not cloud native. Native cloud players, one two and three, sucking the straw at the top of the power law. But then VMware could service an entire set of new clouds. I call maybe second tier or secondary native clouds, where hey someone's got-- Jeff Rick and I were talking about a drone farming cloud. With drones that have applications for farms. >> There's going to be specialization. >> That speaks to a new set of service providers. And the question is, is the cloud service provider market about to explode? What do you think? >> Explode? >> Meaning great, grow, big. Does that long tail fatten out the neck and the torso? >> Yeah. Because at the end of the day, at the end of the day, where you are located matters. Your ability to bring together classes of services is going to matter, and being able to enfranchise and federate all those things is going to matter. And if it is truly cloud, if it's a common cloud experience, the cost to customer of getting into that is going to be relatively low. And so what you're really testing is, is the cost of getting into a specialized cloud going to be more or less than the cost of going with a general cloud and start adding things? And there's going to be a lot of opportunity to serve particular classes of companies by different characteristics. Let me draw an analogy for you. That we talk about-- I'm going to get political for a second. But we talk about partisanship in the US, right? And many years ago people said, oh, the internet is going to democratize everything, and it's going to be this wonderful-- Well that really happened is the internet made it possible for media companies to enfranchise audiences independent of geography. And now we've got highly specialized media sources that are all retaining to a particular audience. Why wouldn't we expect, since software is effectively media, why wouldn't we expect to see the same exact economics and dynamic happen for some of these specialized audiences? >> John: Make software great again! That's my motto. (laughing) >> To that point, service has always been a highly fragmented and highly specialized market. Cloud is services, and I would expect yes, to answer your question, that you're going to see a lot more service providers explode. But they better have a differentiation strategy relative to AWS. >> So the Tam conversation around that is cool, but what's really happening here that was getting a lot of traction, and we talked about this earlier about the two private cloud report. I asked Sanjay Poonen and then I talked to Sam Ramjay at Google who heads up the development platform in Project Management. You know to your quote this morning, a lot of IT's been driving costs out of business, now we're putting revenue on their agenda. He goes, really? And I asked him, what's your metric for success at Google? And he started to think about it and went back to the business value of technology. So I know this is a research area for you. I want to give you a chance to describe, what's the cutting edge metric around the business value of technology? Because in the cloud, magic quadrants don't matter, okay? The scoreboards are changing. At the end of the day it's what value does technology contribute to business that drives top line revenue? Yeah cost containment I get that, but revenue. >> Well so the traditional way of thinking about ROI or business returns or business value is you say I'm going to say for a given application, for ERP, which is the numerator, which is the benefit, so that's why I classify it. Now I'm going to look at the denominator. Which of the different configurations of technologies make that given set of systems have the highest return? And it all becomes a cost question. So really where this goes is that increasingly what businesses are looking at are saying, my customers are demanding digital engagement. My partners are demanding digital engagement. I'm going to use my data differently. I'm going to turn products into services, I'm going to do all these different things with data. That's where the revenue side comes into play. Now can you argue that it all comes back to costs and automation? Yeah, there's things you can do. But at the end of the day the question is, what does your customer see? Does your customer see a better service or a better capability? A different approach of doing things? That is the non-standard numerator in the equation, and that's where IT is, with the business, is increasingly focusing it's attention. And so increasingly what's happening is we're looking at a common denominator, you know Amazon's pricing and Google's pricing and all these other guys' pricing is going to moderate to a set of common metrics, and that means now we can start talking about the numerator, and how doing the numerator differently is going to be the differential. >> Okay so let's take that and take it to Stu and Dave. I did a comment on, we heard this race to the bottom, race to zero, that's not happening. Your True Private Cloud report shows that the SaaS business and True Private Cloud just by itself is bigger than-- >> And we never believed that. We've never bought into that. >> And you know, it's funny, in some of the analyst sessions you get to talk to some of the customers and talking to some of my peers here, something we hear from a lot of companies, not all of them, but cost isn't number one on the list. Usually it's a agility, it's entering the business, it's being able to move faster. Cost and price of course does matter eventually, but you know it's that being able to react faster, that agility that needs to go there. And I mean there's all of these new technologies that are going to line up. Heck, we're spending all of this time talking about public and private cloud, and edge computing is just going to completely change that landscape even more, as we go forward. >> Look, and the other thing is, Amazon sets a pretty high price umbrella. I've never bought into the race to the bottom, I've always said Amazon's going to be more profitable than everybody. They're an infrastructure company with 30% operating margins which is like a software company! I mean that's basically VMware's operating margin. Maybe VMware's a little higher. And of course Amazon has a much higher capital cost. But there's a big price umbrella that Amazon has created. That's an awesome opportunity. I'm interested in what you guys think about the recent momentum behind VMware. The last two years we've seen a total change, right? Two years ago it was kind of negative, negative growth. And now it's tailwinds, positive momentum. Is this a product cycle, is it you know expanded ELAs? Kind of a one time thing? Or do we think this is a sustainable trend? I mean I've said I think the stock is undervalue. Am I right, is this sustainable? >> I think you're right. To me my observation is, I'll let you guys comment on it, but my observation is VMware was stuck in the middle of an identity crisis between the virtualization op side and trying to do cloud. And you nailed it on the earlier intro segment where you said that there's no cap X there, they've got better margins because of it. And by making a decision on not doing cloud and becoming much more of an arms dealer, you can move the ops into the dev, right? And that's been a big stuck in the mud point from VMware. They've got great ops, great enterprise, but they just weren't nailing the developer side. And that became a problem. Now you have clarity on the wave. Cloud IOT just pointed out, now it's very clear what's going on, and everyone knows where the game is. Then the shift is going to come to, and it's whether Kubernetes announcement with Google today didn't get them a lot of applause in my opinion, Stu I'd love to get your reaction. I don't think this audience can connect the dots yet on that long play of the orchestration. So they're still stuck in I got my house to clean up, I don't want to get the fluff and the head room and the future vision. I got problems to deal with on my upside. Yeah I want to do dev and I want to do dev ops, but shit I got to take care of business! >> Yeah so to Dave's question, VMware had reached a certain point, they'd kind of saturated the market for server virtualization. They made a number of number of bets. Some of them panned out. Airwatch, great acquisition. NICERA, phenomenal acquisition. NSX, we've talked extensively about that. Push towards the developer community? Well, I think they've understood now. Pivotal's going to handle that. We'll shove that over here. There's not a developer track at this show anymore. The cloud piece, they fumbled it, a few times, and now they've kind of understood it. Kind of a natural progression. They've made some moves. The ELA is something I think they've sorted out. Their license agreement, how have the partnerships with customers. We've talked extensively about some of the pricing. >> Some of the deck chairs, the mulligan on Virtustream. Carry on, please. >> So right, it's where they fit, where they partner. The relationship with the ecosystem. And a thing, what drove VMware to where they are, is those partnerships and the technology partnerships as well as the channel partnerships. Some of those things I hear, Kubernetes AWS, VMware on AWS, their partners are like, it's scary. I don't know if I make any money. Is this now VMware and Amazon just go to the bank and they cut me out of the whole thing? Some of these are interesting, right. Most people aren't ready for the container, they're definitely not ready. Kubernetes, they hear about it, but it's pretty early. >> Peter your reaction, 'cause this really points to what Stu's saying. I believe what's saying to be true, because I agree. They did their homework, they were listening. They weren't sticking their heads in the sand at your transformation point. >> So if you're a CIO and you're looking at a whole bunch of change, my business' stance towards digital and technology is changing, my relationships with the business are changing. I now foresee that I'm going to have to reorganize my IT organization to take advantage of things like hyper converge and whatnot. So I'm looking at an enormous transformation. In comes VMware and the first thing out of their mouth is, we really don't know what we're doing. We're throwing a bunch of spaghetti against a wall. Would help you sustain these assets until we figure this all out? The CIO's going to say thank you very much, where's Microsoft? So what's happened is VMware decided to get serious and stable. They decided to make some bets, and a lot of the best that we're making right now we're seeing at the show are probably not going to pan out. But that's okay, because it starts-- >> John: But the big ones are, maybe. >> We think so, we think so. We think anesthetics as well. Stu listed them, we don't have to go over them again. But what we are seeing is-- And Michael Dell and Pat and all the executives over and over. >> They're paying attention. >> Open with an opinion. It's very clear that businesses like the VMware opinion. I think Stu and I and all of us probably agree that they could probably go further with that opinion, they could probably lay out an even better vision of what the cloud experience is going to be as they foresee it and as they're going to engineer to it. But it's very very clear that customers today are saying, I've got all this installed, I'm willing to continue to invest in caretaking all this VMware stuff because they have done a better job of laying out what my options are, whereas a few years ago the options were all over the map, which means they had no options. >> They were groping for something. Okay we've got to wrap it up. I wanted to go around the horn on the final piece. We're going to go out tonight, we're going to party. We're going to socialize, stay up all night long, talking to people getting the data. Not all night, we'll be in bed by 11. (laughs) I'll be in bed by 11, I hope, I hope. Great conversations last night, lot of hallway conversations. Lot of good chatter. So around the horn, most compelling thing that you heard, not in a session, in the hallway, through conversations and interactions. Peter we'll start with you. >> Most compelling thing that I heard is, is there's some new stuff coming in the Google universe. That is going to potentially have a pretty significant impact ultimately on how enterprises look at Google. I found out some interesting stuff there. The most compelling thing just very simply on the VMware side of things was the probably coming out of some of the conversations we had with Chad this morning Dave. And the idea that increasingly you're going to look at these platforms. Platform wars are on the horizon. Where it's going to go back to what we were looking at many years ago in certain respects. But you know written much larger. But the increasingly the way people are going to evaluate the quality of a platform is not intrinsic to the platform, but how well it binds to other platforms. That's probably the most important statement that I heard on the floor today over what's happening. >> John: Stu. >> Continue on kind of Peter's theme. We're starting to see really you know, it's gelling. Some of this multi-cloud messaging, been really teasing out with a lot of people. Once again when I get to talk to the practitioners, as to what applications are they building, where do things go, how are they moving around, and you know VMware is a trusted partner, one they've really turned to for a lot of this. And the customers at least are optimistic about what they're hearing. I've heard a bunch of them are really excited for the VMware and AWS more than I expected to hear, and you know it'll be interesting to see. It's been interesting, we've kind of been saying Microsoft maybe there. When we go to Dell EMC World they're talking a lot about Microsoft. Microsoft Ignite's coming up, there will be a huge push. We've said for years, who has the best hybrid strategy? It's got to be Microsoft, hands down. >> Although we haven't mentioned Oracle. Oracle is still not out of this. >> Yeah, absolutely. I always say follow the applications, follow the data. Oracle, Microsoft, huge application portfolio. >> You know I haven't heard one person talk about Microsoft or Oracle here, not one. Dave? >> I want to chime in. >> I've spent the last 24 hours, I've talked to a number of customers. And I will tell you, they're strugglin' to move fast. And that's I think good news for VMware and Dell EMC, because you know all the vision that's put forth, and all this cloud native stuff, and they're really having a hard time digesting a lot of this stuff. You've been saying it for a while, hybrid cloud is BS, nobody's doing hybrid cloud, as it's sort of been defined in early days. Like federated apps, nobody's even thinking about it, not even close. Yeah multi-cloud because I'm getting inundated with all these clouds. So they're really having a hard time moving. So I think that's a good trend. >> Dave, I heard a great line in this. VMware is moving at the speed of the CIO. >> Yeah, it's true. >> That's a great line. >> That's a kind of double-edged comment, but you know absolutely. You want to stay at least up with most of your customers. >> I will say, I said hybrid cloud is BS. I did say it mainly because it's not ready for prime time in my opinion, but. >> Stu: Is it a way station, John? >> Yeah it's a halfway house or it's a way station, whatever you want to call it. >> It's a cul-de-sac! (laughing) >> Sanjay used that line today. Okay my final observation is more of kind of an epiphany from me that kind of wasn't really blind spot but it was an awakening. The customers I've been talking to are really struggling with the merging of multiple stacks. Hardware and software. In new use cases that have been untested and undocumented, and that's causing to the speed of the CIO conversation of, wait a minute we can't just deploy some of this stuff at scale until we do our homework. We've got to get the hardware stacks and the software stacks working together. We've heard it a lot, that's been the number one hallway conversation. That means there's a lot more work to do on that front. Well guys-- >> But it's a working together part. It's that how they bind together. >> It's these new use cases of working together. This is not a software vendor and a hardware vendor, it's all going to be a data vendor at the end of the day! And we'll see who can bring the stacks together. Okay Pat Gelsigner, we had Michael Del, Sanjay Poonen. Great day guys, great stuff. Let's go hit the hallway, go hit some of these parties and get more data for you guys. Thanks for watching the Cube, live in Las Vegas. Wrap of day two here. I'm John Furrier, Dave Vellante, Peter Burris and Stu Miniman. This is the Cube, thanks for watching.

>> Welcome to our presentation here at VM World 2017. I'm John Furrier, co-host of The Cube, with Dave Vellante who's taking a lunch break. We are at VM World on the ground on the floor where we have Google's vice president of product management developer platforms Sam Ramji. Welcome to The Cube conversation. >> Great, thank you very much John. >> So you had a keynote this morning. You know, came up on stage, big announcement. Let's get right to it. That container as a service from Pivotal, VM Ware, and Google announced kind of a joint announcement. It was kind of weird. It wasn't a fully joint but it really came from Pivotal. Clarify what the announcement was. >> Sure, so what we announced is the result of a bunch of co-engineering that we've been doing in the open source with Pivotal around kubernetes running on bosh. So, if you've been paying attention to cloud foundry, you'd know that cloud foundry is the runtime layer and there's something called bosh sitting underneath it that does the cluster management and cluster operations. Pivotal is bringing that to commercial GA later this year. So what we announced with Pivotal and VMWare is that we're going to have cost incompatibility between Pivotal's kubernetes and Google's kubernetes. Google's kubernetes service is called Google Container Engine Pivotal's offering is called Pivotal Container Service. The big deal here is that PKS is going to be the standard way that you can get kubernetes from any of the Dell Group companies, whether that's VMWare, EMC. That gives us one consistent target for compatibility because one of the things that I pointed out in the keynote was inconsistency is the enemy in the data center. That's what makes operations difficult. >> And Kubo was announced at Cloud Foundry, Stu Miniman covered it, but that wasn't commercially available. That's the nuance, right? >> That's right, and that still is available in the open source. So what we've committed to is, we've said, every time that we update Google Container Engine, Pivotal Container Service is also going to update, so we have constant compatibility, that that's delivered on top of VMWare's infrastructure including NSX for networking and then the final twist is a big reason why people choose Google Cloud is because of our services. So Big Table, Big Query, a dynamically scaling data warehouse that we run an enormous amount of Google workloads on. Spanner, right. Which is why all of your data is consisted globally across Google's planet scaled data centers. And finally, all of our new machine learning and AI investments, those services will be delivered down to Pivotal Container Service, right, that's going to be there out of the box at launch and we'll keep adding to that catalog. >> It's just that Google Next was a lot of conversations, Oh Google's catching up to Amazon, Amazon's done a great job no doubt about it. We love Amazon. Andy Jassy was here as well. >> Super capable very competent engineering team. >> There's a lot of workloads in VMWare community that runs on AWS but it's not the only game in town. Jerry Chen, investor in Docker, friend of ours, we know, called this years ago. It's not going to be a one cloud winner take all game. Clearly. But there's the big three lining up, AWS, Microsoft, Google, you guys are doing great. So I got to ask you, what is the biggest misconception that people have about Google Cloud out in the market? 'Cause a lot of enterprises are used to running ops, maybe not as much dev as there is ops, and dev ops comes in with cloud native, there's a lot of confusion, what is the thing that you'd like to clarify about Google that they may not know about? >> The single most important thing to clarify about Google Cloud is our strategy is open-hybrid cloud. We think that we are in an amazing place to run workloads, we also recognize that compute belongs everywhere. We think that the durable state of computing is more of a mosaic than a uni-directional arrow that says everything goes to cloud. We think you want to run your containers and your VM's in clouds. We think you want to run them in your data centers. We also think you want to move them around. So we've been diehard committed to building out the open-source projects, the protocols to let all of that information flow, and then providing services that can get anywhere. So open-hybrid cloud is the strategy, and that's what we've committed to with kubernetes, with tensorflow, with apache beam, with so much of the open-source that we've contributed to Linux and others, and then maintaining open standards compatibility for our services. >> Well, it's great to see you at Google because I know your history, great open source guy, you know open source, it's been really part of your life, and bringing that to Google's great, so congratulations. >> There's a reason for that though, it's pragmatic. This is not a crazy crusade. The value of open source is giving control to the customer. And I think that the most ethical way that you can build businesses and markets is based on customer choice. Giving them the ability to move to where they want. Reducing their costs of switching. If they stay with you, then you're really producing a value-added service. So I've spent time in the operator shoes, in the developer shoes, and in the vendor shoes. When I've spent time buying and running the software on my own, I really always valued and preferred things that would let me move my stuff around. I preferred open source. So that's really the method to the madness here. It's not about opening everything up insanely, giving everything away. It serves customers better and in the long run, the better you serve customers, you'll build a winning business. >> We're here on the ground floor at VMWorld 2017 in Las Vegas, where behind us is the VM Village. And obviously Sam was on stage with the big announcement with Pivotal VMWare. And this is kind of important now, we got to debate now, usually I'm not the contrarian in the group, I'm usually the guy who's like yeah, rah rah, entrepreneurial, optimistic, yeah we can do that! You know that future's here, go to the future! But I was kind of skeptical and I told VMWare and I saw Pat Gelsinger and Michael Dell in the hallways and I'm like, they thought this was going to be the big announcement, and it was their big announcement, but I was kind of like, guys, I mean, it's the long game, these guys in the VMWare community, their operations guys, their not going to connect the dots and there was kind of an applause but not a standing ovation that Google would've gotten at a Google Next conference where the geeks would've been like going crazy. What is the operational dynamic that you're seeing in this market that Google's looking at and bringing value to, so that's the question for you. >> This is what the big change in the industry is is going from only worrying about increasing application velocity to figuring out how to do that with reliability. So there's a whole community of operators that I think many of us have left behind as we've talked about clouds and cloud data. We've done a great job of appealing to developers, enabling them to be more productive, but with operators, we've kind of said, well, your mileage may vary or we don't have time for you, or you have to figure it out yourself. I think the next big phase in adoption of cloud native technology is to say, first of all, open-hybrid, run your stuff wherever you want. >> Well you've got to have experience running cloud. Now you bring that knowledge out here. >> And that's the next piece. How do we offer you the tools and the skills that you need as an operator to have that same consistency, those same guarantees you used to have, and move everything forward in the future? Because if you turn one audience, one community, into the bad people who are holding everything back, that's a losing proposition, you have to give everybody a path to win, right? Everybody wants to be the good guy. So I think, now we need to start paying really close attention to operators and be approachable, right? I would like to see GCP become the most approachable cloud. We're already well known as the most advanced cloud. But can we be the easiest to adopt as well, and that's our challenge, to get the experience. >> You got to get that touch, that these enterprise teams historically have had, but it's interesting I mean, the mosaic you'd mentioned requires some unification, right? You got to be likable. You got to be approachable. And that's where you guys are going, I know you guys are building out for that, but the question is, for you, because Google has a lot of experience, and I know from personal knowledge Google's depth of people and talent, not always the cleanest execution out to the market in terms of the front-facing white glove service that some of these other companies have done, but you guys are certainly strong. >> Well, I think this is where Diane Greene has been driving the transformation, I mean like, she breathes, eats, sleeps, dreams enterprise. So, being both a board member at Google and being the SVP of Google Cloud, she's really bringing the discipline to say, you know, white glove service is mandatory. We have a pretty substantial professional services organization and building out partnerships with Accenture, with PWC, with Deloitte, with everyone to make sure that these things are all serviceable and properly packaged all the way down to the end user. So, no doubt there's more, more room for us to improve, there's miles to go on the journey, but the focus and the drive to make sure that we're delivering the enterprise requirements, Dianne never lets us stop thinking about that. >> It's like math, right, the order of operations is super important, and there's a lot of stuff going on in the cloud right now that's complex. >> Yes. >> Ease of use is the number one thing that we're hearing, because one, it's a moving a train in general, right? But the cloud's growing, a lot of complexity, how do you guys view that? And the question I want to ask you is, we know what cloud looks like today. Amazon, they're doing great. Multi-horse race if you will. But in 2022, the expectations and what it looks like then is going to be completely different, if you just take the trajectory of what's happening. So cleaning up kubernetes, making that a manageable, all the self updates, makes a lot of sense, and I think that's the dots no one's connecting here, I get the long game, but what's the customer's view in your opinion as someone who's sitting back and with the Google perch looking out over the horizon, 2022, what's it like for the customer? >> That's an outstanding question. So I think, 2022, looking back, we've actually absorbed so much of this complexity that we can provide ease of use to every workload and to every segment. Backing into that, ease of use looks different, like, let's think about tooling, ease of use looks different to an electrician verus a carpenter versus a plumber. They're doing different jobs, they need different tools, so I think about those as different audiences and different workloads. So if you're trying to migrate virtual machines to a cloud, ease of use means a thing and it includes taking care of the networking layer, how do we make sure that our cloud network shows up like an on premises network, and you don't have to set up some weird VPC configuration, how can those just look like part of your LAN subject to your same security controls. That's a whole path of engineering for a particular division of the company. For a different division of the company focused on databases ease of use is wow, I've got this enormous database, I'm straining at the edges, how do I move that to the cloud? Well, what kind of database is it, right? Is it a SQL database? Is it a NoSQL database? So engineering that in, that's the key. The other thing that we have to do for ease of use is upscaling. So a lot of things that we talked about before are the need to drive IT efficiency through automation. But who's going to teach people how to do the automation especially while they're being held to a very high SLA standard for their own data center and held to a high standard for velocity movement to the cloud. This is where Google has invented a discipline called SRE or site reliability engineering, and it's basically the meta discipline around what many people call dev ops. We think that this is absolutely teachable, it's learnable, it's becoming a growing community. You can get O'Reilly books on the topics. So I think we have an accountability to the industry to go and teach every operator and every operating group, hey here's what SRE looks like, some of your folks might want to do this, because that will give you the lift to make all of these workloads much easier to manage 'cause it's not just about velocity, it's also about reliability. >> It's interesting, we've got about a minute left or so. I'm just going to get your thoughts on this because you've certainly seen it on the developer side, stack wars, whatever you want to call them, the my stack runs this tech, but last night I heard in the hallway here multiple times the general consensus of two stacks coming together, not just software stacks, hardware stacks, you're seeing things that have never run together or been tested together before. So the site reliability is a very interesting concept and developers get pissed off when stacks don't work, right? So this is a super kind of nuance in this new use case that are emerging because stuff's happened that's never been done before. >> Yeah, so this is where the common tutorials get really interesting, especially as we build out a planetary scale computer at Google. Right, we're no longer thinking about how does the GPU as part of your daughter board, we think about what about racks of GPU's as part of your datacenters using NVDIA K80's, what does it mean to have 180 teraflops of tensor processing capability in a cloud TPU. So getting container centric is crucial and making it really easy to attach to all of those devices by having open source drivers making sure they're all Linux compatible and developers can get to them is going to be part of the substrate to make sure that application developers can target those devices, operators can set a policy that say, yes, I want this to deploy preferentially to environments with a TPU or a GPU and that the whole system can just work and be operable. >> Great, Sam thanks so much for taking the time to stop by. One on one conversation with Sam Ramji who's a Google Cloud, he's a vice president of product management and developer platforms for Google. We'll see you at Google Next. Thanks for spending the time. I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. >> Thank you John.

>> Announcer: Live from Las Vegas, it's The CUBE, covering VMworld 2017, brought to you by VMware and its ecosystem partners. >> Hey welcome back everyone, we're live here in Las Vegas. Behind me is the VM Village, this is The CUBE on the ground live at VMworld, I'm John Furrier, with Dave Vellante. Excited to have Sanjay Poonen, Cube VIP new badge that's going out. Five or more times you get a special badge on the website Chief Operating Officer, Chief Customer Operations as well at VMware, Sanjay. >> I think I won one of your hoop madness what do you call those Cube >> John: Yeah, that's right. You did get one of those. >> One of them, so add that to the smallest. >> Came in second to the bot, next year you won. We're going to have to check the algorithm on it that's before we had machine learning, so... Sanjay, great to see you. >> Always a pleasure, John and Dave, thank you for having me here. >> So, you know, in fairness to the VMware management team I got to say, great content program. Usually you can see, kind of, maybe some things that are kind of a little futuristic on the spot big time, on the content. True private cloud, data that Wikibon reported on, you guys are right in line with that. Hybrid-cloud is where its going from multi-cloud. You talk multi-cloud, the Kubernetes orchestration vision for Cloud Native, and even you were doing some interviewing on stage. >> Trying to be Anderson Cooper. >> So, tell us, what's your perspective because you got to balance here you got the reality of the Amazon relationship front and center, delivered big time there, shipping, western region, VMware on-prem, and on-cloud and this new cloud native vector of orchestration and simplicity. >> Yeah, I think, at least from our perspective as I describe in sort of that one chart where I try to put it in Sesame Street simple terms as I like to describe. VMware is one of the most fundamental companies that had a incredible impact in the data center, taking more costs and complexity. We are the defacto backbone of almost everybody's data center, but as the data center moves to the cloud you got to ask yourself, what's the relevance, and we've now shown, same way with the desktop going to mobile, and that's the end-user stuff that we've talked about the last few shows. But let's focus on that cloud part. We really felt as people extended to the public cloud we had to change our strategy to not seek to be a public cloud ourselves, and that's the reason we divested VCloud Air, and focused on significant things we could do with the leading public cloud vendors. As you know, Andy Jassy is a classmate of mine, Pat, Raghu, myself, began the discussions with Andy two years ago, and we announced the deal last year in October. This year having him on stage was, for me, personally a dream come true, and really nice to see that announcement, but we wanted to make sure we were also relevant to some of the other clouds. So earlier this year, in February, we announced Horizon Cloud, the VDI product manager. Today, we announced Kubernetes VMware, Pivotal and Google Form in Kubernetes, IBM Cloud. So all of the top four clouds, AWS, Azure, Google, and IBM have something going with VMware being with Pivotal. That's a big statement to our multi-cloud vision. >> And what a changeover from just two years ago when the ecosystem was, kind of, like a deer in the headlights, not knowing which way to zig or zag, do they cross the street. Where are we going with this? Now the clarity's very clear, cloud, and IoT, and edge with Amazon right there, a lot of the workloads there with multi-cloud. So the question I got to have you is that, as we just talked to the Google guys, is VMware turning into an arms dealer? Because that's a nice position to be at, because you're now driving VMware into multiple clouds. >> I think, you know, when I was on your show last time I described this continent called VMware, and then bridges into them. (John laughs) Let me try another and see if this works. That was good, but it had its 12-month shelf life. Think about the top four public clouds as sort of Mount Rushmore type figures. Each at different heights, AWS, Azure, Google, IBM Cloud, in market share they're the top four. If you want to build a house on top of Mount Rushmore, okay, it could work, but you're going to have to build it on top of one president's head. The moment you want to build it, you need some concrete infrastructure that fills in all the holes between them. That's VMware. It's the infrastructure platform that can sit on top of those varied disparate levels of Mount Rushmore, and make yourself relevant from on. So that's why we fell, whether you want to call that a quintessential platform, an arms provider, whatever it is, for the 4,400 cloud providers, plus the top four or five public cloud players today, VMware has to be relevant. We weren't two or three years ago. Now, for the top three, we're very relevant. >> I call it a binding agent. You're the binding agent across clouds, that's what you're really trying to become. But I wonder if, you know, you're talking about the clarity. I mean, VMware, things are good right now. Two years ago, was looking kind of hmmm, maybe not so good, with license growth down, and now it's up, stock prices double digits, >> Stock prices almost highest >> Okay, so I want to understand the factors behind that. You mentioned the clarity around vCloud Air and the AWS agreement, clearly. The second I want to attest is, the customer reality of cloud, that I can't just ship my business to the cloud, ship my data to the cloud. I got to bring the cloud model to the data. Did that in your conversation with customers, those two factors lead to customers being more comfortable, signing longer term agreements with you guys. Is that a bit part of the tailwind? I wonder if you could discuss that. >> Yeah, Dave I think that's absolutely right. One of the things I've learned in my 25 years of IT is, you want to keep being strategic to your customers. You never want to be in a place where you're in a cul-de-sac. And I started to sense, right, not definitively, but perhaps two years ago, there was a little it of that cul-de-sac perception as our license revenue was growing, particularly on this cloud strategy. Are you trying to be a public cloud, are you not, what's your stance versus AWS as one example, and with vCloud Air, there was a little bit of that hesitation. And if you asked our sales teams, the clarifying of our cloud strategy, which last year was okay but didn't have the substance or the punch. Now you've got an AWS coming on stage, and the other cloud providers where we have substance. I think that clarifying the cloud strategy game the ability for customers to say, even while they were waiting for AWS to be shipped, the last year, three or four quarters are spending of on-premise VMware stuff has gone up, 'cause they see us as strategic. The second aspect I think is our products are now a lot more mature than they were before outside of B sphere. VMware cloud foundation, which consists of storage, networking, VSAN, NSX, and you've talked to those people on your stage, workspace one, end user computing. These have really, really helped, and I think the third factor is, we've really focused on building a very strong team, from Pat, myself, to Raghu, Rajeev, Ray, Mauricio, Robin, I think it's a world-class infrastructure, so we just added Claire Dixon as our Chief Comms Officer on eBay. This is for us now, and everyone in the rest of the organization, we want to continue building a world-class sort of warrior-style strength in numbers. >> Quick follow-up if I may, just a little Jim Kramer moment. And the financial's looking good, you just raised four billion of cheap debt, right the operating cash flow, three billion dollars, and the nice thing about the clarity around vCloud Air is, the capital expenditure, it's just a very capital-efficient model that you guys have now, and I've been saying, you can't say it, but to me the stock's undervalued. When you do the ratios and the multiples on those factors, it looks like a cheap stock to me. >> John: I would love to see you buy it because we have to disclose it, the big position in VMware. >> No, no, no. >> We don't have any stock >> I wish we did. >> We just want to keep growing and the market will fairly value us over time. >> Yeah, it will. >> Well you guys had a good team at VMware, so let's just go back and unpack that. So there was a transformation. Peter Burrows was talking about IBM over the years, had a massive transformation, so really kind of a critical moment for VMware as you're pointing out. We had this great discipline, great technology, great community folks, still there now, as you mentioned, but that transition from saying, we got to post a position, are we in cloud or not, let's make a decision and move on, and as Dave said, it's good economics behind not having a cloud, but I saw a slide that said VMware Cloud, you can still have a cloud strategy using Amazon. Okay, I get that. So the question for you is this. This is the debate that we've been having. Just like in the cryptocurrency market, you're seeing native tokens in cryptography, and then secondary tokens, just one went crazy today. With cloud, we see native cloud, and then new clouds that are going to be specialty clouds. You're seeing a huge increase the long-tail power law of cloud providers that are sitting on other clouds. We think this is a trend. How does VMware help those potential ascensior clouds, the Deloitte clouds, the farming drone cloud that's going to have unique applications? So if applications become clouds, how does VMware help that? >> That's a really good question. So first off, we have 4,400 cloud providers that built their stacks on VMware. And it could be some of these sourced. Probably the best example are companies like Rackspace, OVH, T-Systems. And we're going to continue to empower them, and I think many of them that are in country-specific areas, France, Germany, China, Asia, have laws that require data to be there, and I think they quite frankly have a long existence, and some of them like Rackspace have adapted their model to be partnering with AWS, so we're going to continue to help them, and that's our VMware cloud provider program, that's going to be great. The other phenomenon we see happening is these mini data centers starting to form at what's called the edge. So edge computing is really almost like this mobile device becoming bigger and bigger, it becomes like a refrigerator, it becomes like a mini data center, and it's not sitting in the cloud, it's actually sitting in a branch someplace or somewhere external. VMware Stack could actually become the software that powers that whole thing. So if you believe that basically cloud providers are going to be three or four or five big public clouds, a bunch of cloud providers are country-specific, or vertical-specific, again in these edge computings, VMware becomes quintessentially important to all of those, and we become, whether you call it a platform, a glue, or whatever have you, and our goal is to make sure we're pervasive in all of those. I think it's going to, world is go, going to go from mobile cloud to cloud edge, I mean the whole word of cloud and edge computing is the future. >> So you believe that there potentially could be another second coming of more CSPs exploding big time. >> Especially with edge computing, and country-specific rules. There's some countries that just won't do business with a US public cloud because of whatever reason. >> Well, many of those 4,400 would say, hey, we have to have a niche so we can compete with AWS, so we don't get AWS-ized. So what's your message to those guys now that you're sort of partnered up with AWS? >> Listen, OVH is a good example. Virtuastream's another, I'll give you two good examples. OVH, we sold vCloud Air to them. We are helping those customers be successful. I go to some of those calls jointly with them, they are based in France expending some of their presence to the US, and have got some very specific IP that makes their data centers efficient. We want to help then be successful. Some of the technology that we've built in vCloud Air, we're now licensing to them so we can them be successful. Virtustream, you know Rodney Rogers being on your show. Mission-critical apps is tough for some of the public clouds to get right. They've perfected the art, and I've known them from my SAP days. So there's going to be some of these other clouds that are going to be enormously successful in their niche, and their niche are going to get bigger and bigger. We want to make sure every one of them are successful. And I think there's a big opportunity for multiple vendors to be successful. It won't be just the top three or four public clouds. There will be some boutique usage by country or some horizontal or vertical use case. >> Good for an arms dealer. Well this is my whole point, this is what we've been getting at. We're kind of riffing in real time, little competitive strategy, we got the Harvard MBA and I'm the Babson guy, we'll arm wrestle it out here, maybe do some car karaoke together. But this brings up the question, and I've been saying for a long time on The Cube, and Dave and I have been talking about, we see a long tail, torso neck expanding, where right now it's a knife-edge, long tail, top native clouds and then nobody else. So I think we're going to see this expand out where specialty clouds are going to come out for your reasons. So that is going to open up the door, and those guys they're not going to want their own cloud. >> Sanjay: I agree. >> And that's a channel, an app, who knows? >> You look at an example, one, two other examples of specialty clouds, these are SAS vendors. If you look at two vertical companies, Viva and Guidewire. These are SAS companies that are in the life sciences and insurance space. They've been enormously successful in a space that you're probably maybe a Zapier Salesforce would have done, but they have been focused in a vertical market, insurance and life sciences. And I think there's going to be many providers the same way at the IS level or the PAS level, to also be successful and we welcome, this is going to be a large multi-cloud world. >> Edge cloud. You guys talking about the edge before. Pat had the slide of the pendulum swinging. >> Sanjay: Exactly. >> What is that edge cloud do to the existing business? Is it disruptive or is it evolutionary in your opinion? >> It's disruptive in the sense that, if you've taken a hardware-centric view of that, I think you're going to be disrupted. You take things like software-defined WAN, software-defined networking. So I think the beauty of software is that we're not depending on the size of the hardware that sits underneath it, whether it's a big data center or small edge of the cloud. We're building this to be an all-form factors, and I agree with Marc Andreessen in the sense the software's eating up the world. So given the fact that VMware >> And the edge. >> Yeah, our premise is if there's more computing that's moving to the edge, more software define happening at the edge, we should benefit from that. The hardware vendors will have to adapt, and that's good. But software becomes quintessential. Now I think the edge is showing a little bit of, like, you know, Peter Levine had a story about how cloud computing might be extinct if edge computing takes off. Because what's happening is this machine starts to get bigger and bigger and sits in a branch or in some local place, and it's away from the cloud. So I think it actually is a beautiful world where if you're willing to adapt quickly, which software lets you do, adapt quickly, I think there's a bright future as world moves cloud, mobile, and edge. >> Great stuff, Sanjay, and I was referencing car karaoke, you have on your Twitter >> Oh the carpool karaoke. >> The carpool karaoke. >> It was a fun little thing. Maybe we could do it together, three of us some time. (John laughs) >> I don't do karaoke. Final... >> Just sing, man Just be out there doing your thing. >> I embarrass myself on The Cube enough, I don't need karaoke to help there. >> David: I'm in. (laughs) >> All right, I'll do it. All right, final question for you. >> That's a deal. Let's do it. >> Final question, Michael Dell and we're talking, the world's upside down right now, the computer industry has been thrown up in the air, it's going to be upside down, reconfiguration. You've been in the business for a long time, you've seen many waves. Actually the waves now are pretty clear. What's the fallout going to be from this for customers, for the vendors, for how people buy and build relationships in this new world? >> I think there's a couple of fundamental principles. I talked about one, software, let's not repeat that. I think ecosystems rule. It's really important that you don't look at yourself as having to own the full stack, you know VMware's chosen to be hardware-dependent. Yes, we're owned by Dell, but you've seen us announce a HP partnership here, right? You've seen us do deals with Fujitsu. We had AWS Cloud and Google Cloud. So when you view the world, I love this line by Isaac Newton, he said, "I see clearly because I stand on the shoulders of giants." And to me, that's a very informed strategy to actually guide our ecosystem strategy. Who are the giants in our space? It's the companies that are relevant, with the biggest market caps. Apple, Google, Microsoft, you know, AWS is part of Amazon, and then you know, HP, EMC, Dell, so and so, we list them, by my SAP. If we're relevant to all of them, I'd love to see the momentum of VMworld and the momentum to reinvent start coalescing. Collectively there's probably a hundred thousand people who come to all of our VMware vForums. Andy Jassy told me he expects 40,000 at re:Invent, and maybe across all of his AWS summits, he has a hundred thousand. I was sharing with him an idea. Why don't we have these two amoebas of growing conferences start to coalesce where we mingle, maybe 20% goes to both conferences, but we'll come to your show and be the best software vendor, that hijacks your show, so to speak, (John laughs) I didn't use that word. But we become the best vendor, and we'll roll out the red carpet to you. Now we've got a collection of 200,000, we couldn't have done that on our own. That's an example of AWS and VMware partnering. Now it doesn't have to be exclusively AWS, we could do it with another partner too. Microsoft doesn't show up at the AWS re:Invent conference, we do. Similarly we could maybe do something very specific with Azure and VDI at the Microsoft event, or Kubernetes and Google. So for VMware, our strategy needs to be highly relevant to the power players in the ecosystem, and the guiding our software-defined strategy to make that work, and I think if we do that, you know, you could see this be a 10 billion and bigger company. >> Well it says it's not a zero sum game, >> Sanjay: No, everybody wins. >> And if you can stay in the game, everybody wins, right. >> And I think in the software-defined infrastructure space, we like our odds. We feel we could be the leading player in that software-defined area. >> And it changes and reimagines that relationship between how people consume or procure technology, because the cloud's a mosaic, as Sam Ramji was telling me earlier. >> Oh you had Sam on your show? Wonderful. >> I had him on earlier, and he sees the cloud as a mosaic. >> He's a fantastic thought leader in open source, we were deeply grateful to have him at our event today. >> Andy Jassy, your classmate and friend, collaborator, he was onstage, great performance that he gave. Really talking to your crowd, saying, "We got your back," basically. Not a barney deals, not a optical deal, we are in on it, we're investing, and we got your back. That's interesting. >> We want to be with all of the key leaders that are driving significant parts of the ecosystem, we want to be friends, our tent is large. If everybody. Provided there's, like you said, not a barney announcement, so provided there's value to the customer. If there is, our tent is large, right? We will have point competitors, you know, here and there, and you know me, I'm very competitive. >> John: (laughs) No! >> I've not named competitors too much in this show. >> Really, really. >> But, if anything now, my mind's a lot more focused on the ecosystem, and I want to make this tent large for as many, many players to come here and have a big presence at VMworld. >> And the ecosystem is reforming around this new cloud reality, and the edge is going to change that shape even further. >> Competing on value, competing in a new ecosystem requires a new way to think about relationships. >> If I could give you one other example, then. In the world of mobile, who would have thought that the most important company to mobile security and enterprise to Apple is VMware now, thanks to AirWatch, or to Samsung, whatever it might be, right. This is the world we live in, and we have to constantly adapt ourselves. So maybe next year we'll be talking about IoT or something different, and their ecosystem. >> Sanjay Poonen, COO of VMware, good friend inside The Cube, always candid. Thanks for sharing your commentary and color on the industry, VMware and your personal perspective. I'm John Furrier, Cube coverage live in Las Vegas, here on the ground floor in the VM Village. We'll be right back with more live coverage after this short break.

[Announcer] Live from Las Vegas. It's the Cube, covering NAB 2017. Brought to you by HGST. >> Welcome back to the Cube. We are live in Las Vegas at the very exciting NAB show 2017. And I'm very excited to introduce you to our next guest, Andy Shenkler. Andy is the EVP, Chief Solutions and Technology Officer, for Sony DADC New Media Solutions. Andy, welcome to the Cube. Thank you very much for having me. You are a veteran, not only of the media and entertainment industry, but of NAB with this year's theme of the M.E.T Effect. That's the convergence of media entertainment technology. What are some of your initial thoughts about the show this year. >> Well, I haven't had a lot of time to visit the whole show yet, it's only opening day. (laughs) I think that over the last 20 years, of even attending these events, it's been heavily focused on kind of cameras and the backend production technology. And over the last several years, we've seen cloud technology, software driven, IP, interaction take place. Even with the thematic change of it being M.E.T., that's clearly coalescing even more. It's no longer a this is a thing that's coming. It's here. And how do people really take advantage of that as they kind of move forward. >> I'd love to get your perspective as you were saying, you've been in the media and entertainment space for about 20 years. >> Yup. >> Around the time of Nabster. Which is like we were saying before, it's hard to believe that was 20 years ago. I'd love to just get, a high level picture of, You must have seen massive evolution in media and entertainment. Tell us a little about that, some of things that really stood out to you. Over those two decades, as milestones. >> There's clearly the ones that we all as consumers know, right. The iPods and iTunes and the advent of Netflix and Amazon Video and things of that nature. And I think those are the very tangible ones. From behind the scenes, I think it's the challenges that the businesses had to go through, right. How do you actually deal with rights problems that are global in nature, right. You suddenly have a world that's portable. You suddenly have problems where I downloaded something or I want to consume a piece of content that I really enjoy, I get on a plane and I'm suddenly in a territory where I no longer have the right to watch that. Those are significant challenges that have to be overcome. And it's not always just technology, right. There's huge legal issues and things like that. And so there's a real striation between what we as consumers expect to find and what the business needs to do to change to accommodate that ever growing, that consumption rate that people want. >> Absolutely. So tell us about the supply chain solutions that Sony DADC is delivering for the media and entertainment industry. >> Sure. So, we started about nine years ago, and it's not that certainly supply chain solutions aren't nine years old. And I think our perspective on it was one where we were fortunate to start with a white piece of paper, rather than transform a legacy business. And when we did that, we said what does the solution five years from now need to look like? And so we run full supply chain offerings for companies like Sony Pictures, BBC Worldwide, Village Roadshow, PlayStation, Funimation, things of that nature. And we're talking about distribution of content to roughly 15 hundred endpoints globally. So that's multiple languages, multiple versions, trying to keep all of that stuff on track. And really the way we approached the problem was, I know it sounds terrible but, really to get human out of the mix from the perspective of what's actually not good for people to do. Looking at millions of permutations of data is not really a strong suit for people. It's a good strong suit for a computer. It had up to that point in time being relegated to Excel spreadsheets and emails. And we tried to eliminate a lot of that by putting systemic decision-making in place. And that's really what's allowed us to scale at a fairly aggressive pace. >> So are we talking about artificial intelligence, machine learning? >> I wouldn't go so far as to say that. >> Okay. >> Much more rules-based engines, logic around it. So let's take an example. Maybe you have a motion picture, we'll say like a Spider-Man. Spider-Man is made and it's available in 15 countries. Each one of those countries have different compliance and rules, cultural rules. Maybe you can't show certain imagery or you can't have somebody drinking in Saudi Arabia or something like that. So now you've left, you've left customer service reps to have a conversation that a I need you to send this to all of these places. How are they suppose to know all of the possible combinations of things. Then on top of that, not just knowing it, how are they suppose to interrogate a library of millions of assets and say, oh yeah, I figured out all the different combinations of things to make that happen. And do so within the timeline, >> Right, yup. >> to hit a business goal. That worked great in the beginning, when it was, we're going to get 50 titles out. Now we deliver 60, 70, 80 thousand titles a month. Suddenly, that is no longer sustainable for a human project. You couldn't get enough people in this building to go through that much content. >> Got it. So it's really kind of rules-based. So you've got users of the Sony technology, film studios, broadcasters, music labels. Give us an example of say, on the broadcast side, about what they're looking to do with managing assets to meet consumer demand and ensure that it's with this multi-channel distribution model, they're meeting consumer demands, wherever those consumers are. >> So I think from a broadcast perspective, which even in that world, that's blending, there is no traditional broadcaster as we know it anymore, even a broadcaster has VOD services, they might have some sort of mobile provisioning, OTT. And so therein lies there challenge, right. They've put in large infrastructure over many years, They continue to reinvest in that. Along come a Netflix of Google, whomever, with global licensing, the ability to move incredibly rapidly. And so they're looking at it and and saying, how do I compete, how do I stay relevant in this space. Market share as we know, is starting to move away from the broadcast side, linear television per se. And so where we come into play is, we say, we've already got massive amount of content available, you've licensed it already. Let us make that available, let us run that infrastructure for you. Your focus should not be on, how do I make sure that the power plant stays up. But rather, how do I market, how do I differentiate, how do I create a compelling proposition to consumers, so that I can effectively compete as this grows. >> Okay, so you're really helping them to scale on ways that they would never would have been able to do on their own. >> I think we're just helping them get there sooner. It's not to say that they could never do it. I think that's a lot of ego, a lot of hubris. It's very much that we've leveraged kind of our position as Sony, as what we have done for a lot of partners in this space. And we've said, there's a reasonable way to kind of level the playing field. >> Right. >> Right. A supply chain should not be the level of differentiation, right. We don't simply say, oh well, here's a really good manufacturing supply chain, there's only one company who should use it. It should be leveraged by many, many facilities. And so we take that same view from a digital perspective. Traditionally, we've been sending content out all around the world. We've now moved to a model that says, why don't we just host it all singularly, in any format that you want. Your choice, any spec, any DRM, but it's centralized. So for one of our customers in fact, They aired something in Japan, and 24 minutes later, it's available everywhere else. >> Wow. >> That couldn't be done if I also had last mile bandwidth considerations to take into account. And we believe that that 24 minutes is sawed by about half. We think we can get that down to under 10 minutes. >> Question for you. And the speed theme, >> Umhmm. >> Has come up a number of times today, >> Sure. >> with different folks that we've talked about. If we look at a Netflix, as you have brought up for example, from an audience perspective, the audience is so empowered, and we have access to anything we wanted, whenever we want it, bing watching, streaming, we're time shifting. >> Right. >> So you think, wow, Netflix has a great advantage because they know so much about the audience. At the same time, until they started creating unique content, they couldn't really change the content. Versus on the flip side in the film industry, They haven't really historically known their audience. >> Umhmm. >> It's been more of, probably, qualitative data and decisions, at the same time, they can change content. So, do you work with the streaming services, as well as the traditional film studios. Do they have a similar challenge that can be solved by using media as a service? >> So for ones who want to use everything that we offer end to end, again, that level playing field, we give everybody visibility. We believe data transparency is pretty important. We recognize that people hold on to data as kind of the the keys to the kingdom at this point. Certainly Netflix does and they're leveraging it quite well, right. It's hard to find fault with what they're doing from a business perspective. At the same time, as a consumer, you really don't want to have to be potentially loyal to a particular brand, right. That's not how capitalism works, but that's a different problem. But people who run on our platform, we think that there is a good balance. And both sides should have visibility to a lot of that data because it should help each other. They should really, a rising tide should float all boats, and not just create this imbalance. Because it becomes difficult to amortize costs if there's one and only one solution in the market. And that's really how we try and approach that problem. >> So in terms of, what kind of volume of content are we talking about here? >> So we store today, just over 20 petabytes of content, roughly a million hours worth of. This is premium content, so this is not user generated. This is not like youTube clips of somebody's cat. There's probably a couple. There's probably a couple in there. >> (Lisa laughs) >> No grumpy cat in there? >> There might be a few in there but that's not primarily what's what it is. We're talking about high end premium content. And in about 23 languages. So the variations that we have are very high. Now, a lot of times, people will say well, it's easy to get to a million hours because people do bad data. And so they'll store something, they'll store something like Spider-Man with a hypen in the middle or a space or all together. We're actually very, very focused on not having that. So these are all unique assets. So it's a very large library when you look on it on a global scale. >> So how can a a linear network versus a streaming network access a million hours of content. >> We actually don't differentiate between a linear and a streaming network. Because at the end of the day, we're a complete IP solution. The ability to uplink through satellite is fine, it's just another method of transport. But really all they do is, they come to us with their licenses and then we provision the assets for them in their specifications. And we make it available to them anywhere. It's pretty straight forward. We try and take a lot of the heavy lifting off their plate, reduce their infrastructure costs, reduce the team sizes from a scaling perspective so they don't have to grow so much. We really and try to flat rate a lot of this to make it easy and predictable. >> Fantastic. Last question since we're running out of time here. >> Sure. >> I know that you guys have really migrated the media supply chain to the cloud, going all in with AWS. You had mentioned that that had started about a year ago. Tell us about what you're doing with AWS and how has that influenced the genesis of media as a service? >> So I think what I should tell you first is that, when I went to the team to talk about this, I borrowed a line from The Hunt for Red October, where they said Cortez reached a new world and burned his new ship so that his men could not go back. (Lisa laughs) >> We got rid of our data centers first and then told the team we're going AWS. So there was no going back. We were making this move, there wasn't going to be hesitation and an all in model is the only model that worked for us. They hybrid model is just not cost-effective. We had to embrace something that was future proof and seemed like the right one. Where we've benefited from it is, clearly, there is economic advantages. But some of the other advantages, are like what I was talking about before, 24 minute time from receipt to availability everywhere, would have been unthinkable in a completely contained environment, where I had to have huge lead time for scalability. I had to know in advance that I would need more storage or more transporting capacity or more bandwidth. I no longer need to have that level of information upfront. I live in a world of unpredictability. People come in with requests all the time, that I didn't know an hour ago was going to be asked for. I'm finally in a position to be able to offer a solution to all of them that says, go ahead, do whatever you like, our system will manage it and we have confidence in the AWS infrastructure to be able to support that. >> Well sounds like a fantastic partnership that's going to be-- >> It's very good, we're very happy with it. >> Really enabling a lot of, more content creation, more uses of this content in the future. >> And we really want to see that. We want to see people create differentiated solutions for consumers without having to worry about how the sausage gets made. >> Exactly. Nobody wants to know that. >> Nobody wants to know that. (Lisa laughs) >> Well Andy, thank you so much for joining us on the Cube. >> Thank you. >> And sharing your insight. I know you just got to the show not too long ago so we wish you and your feet healthy next few days. >> Thank you very much. >> And we look forward to seeing you back on the Cube sometime soon. >> I appreciate it. Look forward to being with you. >> Alright, we want to thank you for watching. Again, Lisa Martin, live at NAB in Las Vegas. Stick around, we'll be right back. (techno music)

>> Announcer: Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE. Covering NAB 2017. Brought to you by HGST. >> Hi, welcome back to theCUBE. We are live in Las Vegas, at the NAB Show 2017. I'm Lisa Martin, and I'm very excited to be joined by our next guest, Ted Harrington. Ted you are the executive partner at Independent Security Evaluators. Welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you for having me. >> Absolutely, we're excited to have you here. We're very excited also, because Ted has a very cool Twitter handle, @SecurityTed, super cool. So you are with Independent Security Evaluators. Tell us a little bit about what the ISE is. You were the first company to hack the iPhone and the Android, give our viewers a little bit of a backstory on ISE. >> Sure, so probably the simplest way to think about it is that we're the good guy hackers. Companies hire us to help them find security flaws and remediate those flaws in their technologies. And so we do that across a number of industries including heavy, prominent presence in the media and entertainment business. We also have a pretty strong focus on security research. Which is what you're referring to with the iPhone and the Android OS. We also, even the company came out of what is today known as car hacking. We found a way to build a weaponized software radio that we could start a Ford Explorer without the authentic key. >> Lisa: Wow. >> So we're tinkerers and problem solvers and we like to find issues before the bad guy does. >> And that's a great point about being the good kind of hackers, but also being able to highlight that these security challenges are real, across industries, and be able to I presume, influence or help companies, whether they're in media and entertainment or other industries. Understanding what is the type of cyber security protocol that we should be putting in place here to prevent the bad hackers from getting in. >> You hit the nail on the head. The core emphasis of what a security assessment with us entails, really is focusing on the technology problems, the deep technical issues. But at it's core, where all of these issues come from is the presence or lack thereof, of an effective mission. Many security, many companies when they think about security, are thinking of it as something that would be nice to have, not as a core business requirement. And changing that attitude is something that we spend a lot of our energy trying to influence. Because the companies that see security as the business enabler that it is, those companies are doing some tremendous things across industries today and they're really being the pioneers that are leading. >> One of the things that I was reading recently was what happened to La La Land, where screeners were leaked and fairly prolifically, and obviously that was a big massive box office hit, nearly a Best Picture winner, a few months ago. But I've also read reports where a leak like that can really negatively impact box office sales, like upwards to 20%. So if you look at a studio for example, and you were kind of saying, that maybe in general security is viewed as a nice to have. Is that a strong enough demonstration of the vulnerability of say a studio to make them go, "Okay, we need help here. "There are vulnerabilities we might not even be aware of." Are you seeing more uptake in the media and entertainment industry? Or is security still a, "It's a good idea "but we've got other things to focus on, "creating really, really cool content." >> The media and entertainment business, I think, does a fairly good job of prioritizing security. Now, of course, across the spectrum there are things that we would advocate doing better or in different ways, but the business driver that you mentioned, the idea of avoidance of box office decline. That's the core fundamental problem that we're trying to solve for the content owners and their vendors, because that window, the theatrical release, from a revenue perspective is the most important moment for, especially the blockbusters, La La Land, no one necessarily knew was going to be a blockbuster, before it came out, but when you look at things like, the next Star Wars, the next Avengers, the movies that are definitely going to make huge amounts of revenue, making sure that that movie makes it to the theater, without being released, that is the top priority for many organizations in this industry and we see a lot of organizations doing it well. >> That's good because the IP in that alone, for a company, the next Star Wars, the next whatever happens to be, the intellectual property that that studio owns, is probably nearly invaluable. So having the right strategy around that is key. Wanted to pick your brain, I know that you have started the IoT Village, and as we look at this proliferation of connected devices, the audience, we we're chatting earlier before we went live, the audience, you know, we're so empowered. We can make decisions, we can watch whatever we want whenever we want, from 35,000 feet in the air. We're binge watching, we're sharing on social. We've got multiple devices. Where that's concerned, and also you mentioned content, that's also not just a way that we're consuming content, that's a way that we're creating it. How, what is the IoT Village all about and is it down to the level of helping media and entertainment companies start providing security across the connected devices that are consuming and creating the content? >> We started IoT Village as a security research platform. Basically where, we invite other smart security researchers to help us focus on the problem of security issues in these connected devices that are being deployed. Everything from people's homes all the way to businesses and like you said even to the creation of content and consumption of content. The reason that we wanted to put some emphasis on this problem is that, that's an industry that I think, maybe by contrast, to some of the things we've talked about with media and entertainment, that still has a ways to go, in terms of how it's thinking about security. Security is not a priority in the development process for the majority of organizations in that industry. Now, there are definitely some that are doing it right, but they're more the minority. So what IoT Village does is helps us shine a spotlight on those issues. To connect the dot full circle, to what you were talking about, with media and entertainment, this is a conversation that I don't think, is happening loudly enough in this industry. Connected devices are being deployed for, a lot of the cases you said, consumption of content, for creation of content. Even for things that people don't necessarily equate with the process, like, the TVs that are used to screen the, whatever version is being reviewed right now, in the conference room. Those are often smart TVs with an internet connection and there's not necessarily an adequate control in place around how to think about the security implication of that. Fundamentally, connected devices expand the attack surface, and that's the way the organizations need to think about it. Not to say that they should not deploy those devices, but that they need to adequately consider that in the security model. >> Absolutely, and how does an organization get control over that, over those devices? >> Well, like any technology that's developed by a third party, one who procures that technology, can only do so much. You can't actually get into the source code, or whatever, unless that organization wants you to, but there definitely are things that organizations can do in a deployment model, to mitigate risk. So, those would be things like ensuring you have proper segmentation, where the highest risk types of devices are quarantined away from areas where the biggest, most impactful compromise could potentially exist. To absolutely implement a threat model, which is an exercise through which an organization identifies what you're trying to protect, who you're trying to protect against and how those adversaries will deploy their campaigns. >> Question for you about the devices now that are popping up in our homes, right, the Google Home, the Amazon Echo, as an owner of those, there's very little control, right? That an owner or a user has over those devices, any recommendations or insight into what can be done on the vendor side to, those devices listening all the time, right, that's their job, any insight there into recommendations that can be taken to help make those a bit more secure? >> So for the person who purchases and deploys that device, there are a handful of things you can do. First and foremost, change the default password. Seems like I should not have to say that, yeah. >> Yeah >> Change it from admin password. >> Yeah. >> But you'd be surprised how few people actually change the default password, and the default password is effectively publicly available information. There was a very significant distributed denial of service attack that happened in October, that basically took the internet offline for a few hours. >> Yes. >> And that was completely mobilizing connected devices that had not changed the default password. Attackers took them all over and then used those in the attack. So, change the default password. Check for updates to what extent that you can, and really think about whether or not you might need the connectivity of a certain device. So, for example, we talked about a moment ago, the smart TV. There are a lot of people out there, who buy a TV, not because they need the internet connectivity to it, but because they want to consume content. If they're not going to use that connectivity, turn it off. Effectively, all that it's doing if you're not using it, is introducing new ways to be attacked. >> So there's some simple remedies that, either people or industries can take for their internet of things or connected devices to be a little bit more secure? >> Yes, however, the real crux of the solution, definitely relies on those who manufacture the devices. So, manufacturers of connected devices need to do things like adopt an adversarial mindset. Think about how someone will attack this system. They need to think about things like, how are you going to update this system over time, especially given the fact that the average consumer of this device, probably is not technical, and probably will not proactively go on to be dealing with updates. They want to set it and forget it. So thinking about those things from that perspective, adhering to principals of secure design, going through security assessment, really looking at your system in terms of how it can be broken, that's how you build it to be resilient against attack. >> Wanted to ask you one final question about laws and regulations, what are you thoughts on that? Is that something that can either help a film studio protect their IP, all the way down to helping those of us that have at home connected devices? Laws, regulations, good, bad, indifferent, what are your thoughts? >> I'm very strongly not a proponent of regulation as a security measure. Laws and regulations, what winds up happening, they take too long to enact. The adversary has already evolved away from whatever the control is. They're usually very riddled with compromise, based on all the stakeholders who helped develop this law. They're usually developed by people who are not technically savvy. You know, lawmakers are not security analysts, though they rely on security analysts, it's still in the delivery of the execution, it doesn't really manifest itself effectively. That said, I recognize that in a lot of ways, that's just the way the world will move. Many organizations should anticipate that some sort of regulatory body at some point, is going to require compliance with some sort of law and while I don't think that it's a great solution to solve the problem, it's at least a start, because it does get those who will not invest in security, to at least start investing in security. So it lowers the minimum bar, it does not raise the highest bar. >> Very interesting insight, and one more question if I can squeak it in, and that is, you mention that media and entertainment is pretty good with respect to security, for those industries where it's still a nice to have, do you think it's going to take something like another DDoS attack, or something else to, something big that is quite, negatively impactful, to get some of those industries to go, "You know what, "this is no longer a nice to have. "This is a fundamental element that "we need to culturally adopt." Do you think it's going to be something almost catastrophic, that's going to drive that change? >> Most likely, but it won't be just the big issue. It will be whatever the big issue is combined with an individual, or collection of individuals with the political capital to drive for that pioneering change. Industries don't typically change on their own. They change because people make them change. >> Good point, well, Ted Harrington, thank you so much for spending time with us today. If you're not following Ted on Twitter, @SecurityTed, follow him, from Independent Security Evaluators. Thank you so much for sharing your insights. Have a great rest of the NAB Show. >> Thank you for having me. >> And with that said, you've been watching theCUBE live from NAB in Las Vegas. I'm Lisa Martin, stick around, we'll be right back. (light techno music)