>>Welcome back to the cubes coverage of dr khan 2021 virtual. I'm john for a host of the cube. Got a great cube segment here at Donnie Bergholz, VP of products at Docker Industry veterans, seeing all the ways of innovation now uh had a product that dr dani great to see you. >>It's great to see you again to john >>hey, great program this year, Dr khan almost pushing the envelope again. Just the world's changed significantly over the past few years in this past year has been pretty crazy last year were virtual at the beginning of the pandemic, the watershed moment. Dr khan 2020 you know, with virtual event and then share action packed keynote track, uh four tracks run share build accelerate, you got a cube track, you've got live hits. Uh, community rooms global, huge growth in the developer community around Docker Kubernetes is now well understood by everyone and the general consensus is everyone's in production with it moving like a fast train cloud natives at the center of the action coupons, very operational operators. Dr khan's very development focus. So this is a key developer event really in the CNC F cloud native world. What's going on the process? Give us the update? >>Yeah. And I think you made a fantastic point there, john which is the developer focus. Uh, I joined dr back in october of last year and one of the first things that I did was make sure that we were going out there listening to our customers, having a lot of fresh conversations with them and using those as the core product strategy as we were talking to customers. What we learned fell into three big buckets around building sharing and running modern applications. So we've used those to create our product strategy which is based on solving problems that our customers and developers using Docker care about rather than lot of product strategies that I've come across as an analyst and as a leader on the enterprise side, which are very much feature factory driven of like here's the thing we can ship it, what kind of shove it in your face and try and sell it to you. So I'm really excited about what we're doing a doctor by delivering things that are developers really care about based on problems that they have told us are really valuable to solve problems that when we win, we went together and so we're focused on helping developers really accelerate their application delivery. So what are we doing? There's so much stuff and you know, if you've seen the keynote already, you'll see more and more of that. We announced for really big things and a lot of smaller things as well, um things like uh doctor verified publisher program which brings more trusted content. Um the doctor deV environments that help teams collaborate more effectively, um dr desktop on apple silicon bringing environments to the latest and greatest of machines that everybody is trying to get ahold of. Especially now that cps are harder to come by. Uh uh as well as uh some of those little things like scoped personal access tokens, which makes it easier for people to use a Ci pipeline without having to give it full right privileges and be concerned that if they get hacked, if the sea acrobatic it's hacked, then they get hacked to we're trying to help them defend against those kinds of cases. >>It's funny you made me think of the eye with the apple silicon comment, the supply chain threats that you've seen in hardware. And even here I'm hearing the word kicked around just in the CTO of doctor used the word supply chain, software supply chain. So again, you bring up this idea of supply chain, you mentioned trust. I can almost see the dots connecting, you know, in real time out in the audience out there saying, okay, you've got trust supply chain hardware, software, containers, there's no perimeter and clouds. You have to have a kind of unit level security. This is kind of a big deal. Can you just unpack this trend? Because this is a security kind of anywhere kind of not going to use a buzzword, but like supply chain actually hits home here. Like talk about that. What? All wise all this means? >>Yeah, I think Doctor is in a really interesting position in terms of how development teams and enterprises are adopting it, because it's been around for long enough that enterprises have come to trust Docker and it's really gotten in there in a way that a lot of brand new technologies have not. And yet we're still pushing the boundaries of innovation at the same time. So when when we think about where dr fits in for developers, we've got dr official images, which are probably adopted the default for anything you're going to do in a container. You go and get a doctor official image and start doing it. But then what Right? You pulling a bunch of those, you start building applications, you start pulling other libraries, you build your own code on top, um, on your DEV environment where you're probably running doctor desktop to do so. And so we've got content coming from a trusted source, we've got dr running on the developer laptop and then we've got everything else like where else does it go from there? Uh, and so there's a ton of um, both problem and opportunity to help bring all that complex kind of spaghetti pipeline mess together and help provide people with the path of they can have confidence in while they're doing so. It's interesting because it's different for developers than it is for option. Security teams very, very different in terms of what they care about. >>So talk about the automation impact because I can see two things happening. One is the trusted environment, more containers everywhere. And then you have more developers coming on board. Right? So actually more people writing code, not just bots, machines and humans. So you have more people flooding in writing code, more containers everywhere that need to be trusted? What's the impact to the environment? What's the but how do you, how does develop experience get easier and simpler when that's happening? >>We see that as you get more and more content, The tail, the long tail continues to extend, right, more and more community generated third party content. People publishing their own applications on Docker hub and all across the Internet. And that makes the importance of being able to discover things that you can trust that you can incorporate without worrying about what might be there all the more important. So we've got dr official images today, we announced the doctor verified publisher program. All these are things that we're doing to try and make it easier for developers to find the good stuff to use it and not worry about it and just move on with their lives. >>What's your vision and what's your, what stalkers take on the collaboration aspect of coding? I think it's one of the key themes here. Where does that fit in? What's the story with collaboration? >>Yeah, we see this as an area that really has been left behind around the adoption of containers, the adoption of kubernetes, the focus has been so much on that pipeline and that path and production and production container orchestration where we watched the generation of kubernetes arise and most of the vendors in the space, we're doing some kind of top down infrastructure deal right selling to the VP of Ops or something along those lines. Um and so the development of those applications really was left by the wayside because that's not a problem that the VP of us cares about, but it's a very interesting problem as we think about dr being focused on developers now to help those teams collaborate because no application is built in a closet. Every single application that is built is built in partnership with other developers, with product managers, with designers, all these people who need to somehow work together to review not only the source code, but the application as a whole. >>What does the product? Um, Evolution looked like as Justin Cormack and I were talking about, you know, developer productivity, the simplification containers as a P. I. S. What is the, what is the priority? How, how do you look at that? Because the securities front and center and a variety of security partners here in the ecosystem. Where's the priorities on the road map? You can, if someone asked you, hey Donnie, what's the bottom line? What's the product strategy? >>Yeah, our priority is the team. First and foremost, it is not optimizing for the single developer, it is optimizing for that team working together effectively. We feel that that is a very underserved audience of that developer team as a unit. Um, if you look at everybody in the container space, like I said, they're all kind of focused on operations, production, cloud environments, not on that team. And so we see that as a great opportunity to solve really important problems that nobody else is doing a great job of solving today. >>I gotta ask you on the team formation is the general consensus. Also in a lot of my interviews here at dr khan and outside in the industry, is that the, the monolithic organization building monolithic applications certainly has been disrupted. Certainly the engineering teams now look like they're going to be into end workloads, full visibility and to end with an s sorry, on the team, everyone kind of built in these teams. We kind of platform engineering flexing in between. So you don't have that kind of like silent organization certainly has been discussed for well, but this seems to be the standard. Now, what's your take on this and is that what you mean by teams that could you share your view on how people are organizing teams? Because certainly get hub and a lot of other leaders are saying, yeah, we see the same way these teams have, you know, threaded leaders and or fully baked team members inside these teams. >>Yeah, we definitely see that team as a cross functional team. It's not, you know, your your old world, we might have been like, you've got the development team here, you've got the QA team here, you've got the operations team there. It's completely not that it's that team is it's got developers on it. If there are dedicated testers or software engineers and test their on it, if they need to have a devops person or an SRE there on it as well, it's all part of the same team and that team is building on top of the platforms that are exposed by other teams. And that's the big shift that I think has been in the works for probably a decade at this point has been that kind of rotation of responsibilities that you used to be, that DEV's owned the DEV environment and DEV test and ops owned Prod and everything about PROd and now it's much more that there are platforms that span every environment and there's a platform team responsible for each one of those components that delivers it in a self service way. And then there are teams that build on top of that that own their application all the way from development through to production, they support it there on call for it. This is how we work internally, our development teams in our product development teams, I should say, because they're cross functional, really take ownership for their applications and it's it's a super powerful imperative. It gives people the ability to iterate much more quickly by taking away a lot of those gatekeepers. And it's it's the same thing as a matter of fact, when I was at an enterprise before I joined dr it's the same thing we did. A big part of our strategy was creating these self service platforms so that product teams could move quickly. >>Remember I interviewed during the QB was awesome. Great concept. Go back to look at that tape. That's not exactly not tape, it's on disk, but Great. Great concept. Let me ask you one more question on that because one of the things that's clear that's coming out even in the university areas Engineering DeVOPS has now brought in much more of a focus of the SRE that used to be an ops role but now becomes becoming developer. I mean it's DEVOPS, as you said, it's been going on for a while over a decade now it's much more clear that this s. R. Re engineering role is key. So with that I've always thought Doctor and containers is a perfect integration tool capability. I mean why not? I mean that's one of the benefits of containers as you allow, you can contain arise things. So if you play out what you just said about the team's integration is huge. Talk about how you see that evolving as a product person. >>Yeah. I think as you say, the integration is huge. Um You know, one way that I look at it is that the application itself or the service itself is defined by either a container or a set of containers. Um And the product development team cares about what's inside of that set of containers up and to that container layer or that group of containers layer. Whether that's the doctor file with its containers. Docker compose those kinds of things and then there might be a platform team responsible for running a great kubernetes environment, whether they're using a cloud platform or in house and they care about everything outside of the containers, up to the containers as that interface. Uh So when we think about those focuses, like Docker is all about that application in words. Um And a lot of the more production oriented containers vendors are container outwards. So it's very different when we think about the kinds of problems we want to solve. It's about making that application definition really easy and portable and enabling a clean handoff to SRE teams who may be responsible for running that Apple product. >>You brought up trusted content, trusted containers, modern applications earlier. What does trusted containers mean to you? I mean that's I mean obviously means security built in but there's a lot of migration there with containers, containers coming in and out of clusters all the time. They're being orchestrated. They're being used with state and state stateless data. What does trusted content mean? >>No. Really, for us, the focus is an interesting one because when we think about building, sharing and running applications for developers, our run means we want to give developers are great interface into the production environment. We don't want to provide the production environment. And so some of those problems are ones we deeply care about where the developers are making sure that they've got a trusted, secure, verifiable path to get the content that they are incorporating into their app all the way to production or to a point of hand off. If there is a point of hand off, once it gets to production, it becomes the problem of different products and different vendors to make it really easy for those same enterprises to effectively secure that application and project. >>What does containers is as an A P. I mean that's just docker reference classic approach or is there a new definition to containers as a piece? Our container ap >>Yeah, I think the question becomes really interesting when you start thinking about what's inside of each one of those containers and how you might be able to use those as building blocks. Even thinking about trends that are on the rise, like Loco Noko development, how could you imagine incorporating containers or a service composed of a group of containers um, into one of those kinds of contexts to do so you have to have a clean ap that you can define and published in support of how a different component would interface with every one of those containers. What are the ports? What are the protocols? What are the formats? Every one of those things is important to creating an API >>So I gotta ask you don? T put you on the spot because you've been on many, many sides of the table, analyst Docker, you've been at an enterprise doing some hardcore devops. If I'm a customer out there and say I'm a classic main street enterprise. Hey Donnie, I'm putting my teams, we're kicking ass. We've been kicking the tires, been in the cloud pandemics, giving us a little lift, we know it to double down on, we feel good about where we're going. Um, but I got a couple clouds out there. I'm all in on one. I got another one going, but I'm going hybrid all the way. I don't even know what multi cloud is yet, but hybrid means edge and ultimately distributed computing. What do I do? What's the doctor Playbook, What do you, what do you say to me? How do you keep me calm and motivated? Yeah, >>I think, you know, the reality is like you say every company is going to be running in multiple different environments. Um It's probably not the same application in multiple environments and different apps and they've gotten to a place maybe accidentally as different business units are different functions started picking different clouds of their choice and getting them there. But in the end of it, like the company as a whole has to figure out how do I support that and how do I make it all work together effectively and deal with all the different, not just levels of expertise in these different environments, but the different levels of performance and latency to expect as you have applications that may need to run across all those, um you know, I used to work in the travel industry and you might have somebody trying to book a flight and that's but you know, bouncing across a cloud to a data center, to a different cloud, to a service provider and on back and you can imagine very quickly, how do you solve for those latency problems that we know are correlated to user experience and in an e commerce kind of context correlated with revenue because people balance if they can't get a good response, it's complicated. The fact is it's just it's a hard problem to solve. Um containers can definitely help solve part of that by providing a consistent platform that lets you take your applications from place to place. That lets you build a consistent set of expertise so that, you know, a container here is like a container, there is like a container over there um And work with those in a fairly consistent way. But there's always going to be differences. I think it's very dangerous to assume that because you have a container in multiple places, it's going to provide the same levels of guarantees. And we had a lot of these conversations back in the early 2010s when private cloud was really starting to pick up steam and we said Oh let's make compatible storage layers. Uh And it was true to a point you could provide api compatibility but you had to run as hard as you could to keep up with the changes and you couldn't provide the same level of resiliency, You couldn't provide the same level of data protection, you couldn't provide the same level of performance and global footprint and all those provide what what does the A. P. I mean to a developer using it. It's all of those things regardless of whether they're in an api spec somewhere. >>That's a great call out looking at the how things are moving so fast and you just got to keep up. It's almost like you want some peace, peace time kind of philosophy. So I gotta ask you as you look at the landscape again, you've got a unique perspective running product over a docker which puts you at the front lines and looking at the whole marketplace as as a whole cloud native. But you also been an analyst. I got to ask you what does success look like because as the world changes that it's not always obvious until you see it. And then you know that success and then some people are trying different approaches. How do you tell the winners from the losers or the better approaches versus the ones that struggle? Is there a pattern that you're seeing emerge from the pandemic as a team is a tech? What's the, what's the pattern of success that you see? Development teams and organizations deploying that's working and what's a sign of bad things? >>Yeah, I think, you know, one of the biggest patterns is the ability to iterate quickly and learn fast. You know, if there's nothing else that you can do, you just think about what are those basic principles that let you be Agile? Not as a development team. Agile is a company getting from those ideas and that customer feedback all the way through the loop. To build that thing, tested with your customers before you ship it, get it out there. Maybe you do some kind of a modern deployment practice to decrease your risk as you're doing so right. It's Canary, it's rolling, releases its blue green, all those things Right? How do you d risk, how do you experiment while you're doing so and how do you stay agile so that you're able to provide customer value as fast as possible? Almost every failure pattern that you see is one that happens because you're not listening to your customers effectively and often enough and you're not iterating quickly enough so you're building in a direction that is not what they wanted or needed, >>you know, looking at Dr khan 2021 this year, look at the calendar, the cube tracks in there, which I'm excited to do a bunch of coverage on. It's always fun. But you got the classic build share run, which is the ethos of Doctor, but you get a new track called accelerate, there is an acceleration coming out of the pandemic more than ever. Um it's been pretty cool. I mean you're seeing a lot more action in all areas but talk about the acceleration with containers and what you what you're seeing on the landscape side of the industry and how that's impacting customers. What specifically is this acceleration really all about? >>Yeah, when I think about what acceleration means to me, it's about how do you avoid building things, avoid finding things that you don't need to spend your time on? How can you pick things up? Incorporate those into your workflows, incorporate those into your applications that you don't have to build it yourself right, you can accelerate every time you want to accelerate. Its because somebody else built something that you can then reuse and build on top of whether its application components, whether that's SAs or apps, developer services, whether that's pre integrated pipelines. So you've already got plug ins and tools that work every one of those things as an accelerator, A lot of them are delivered by all kinds of different vendors all over the map. And so if they don't integrate well together, if there aren't open A. P. S, if there aren't pre integrated offerings, it's not gonna be an accelerator is gonna be exactly the opposite. It's going to be I want to get this thing in, let me bring in five or six different consulting teams to start trying to piece all this stuff together. Big, big slow down. So the pretty integrated solutions, the open A. P. S. Those are the kinds of things that really are going to accelerate people. >>I can't I can't agree with you more on this whole slowdown thing. And one of the hardest things to do is insert new team members are new kind of rules and process into kind of already accelerated momentum, which is hard. This is a hard new kind of a cloud native dynamic, which is scale and speed are critical, right? So it's one of those things that's actually benefit. But if you don't rein it in a little bit, how do you balance that? What's your advice to folks? This is, this is a common problem. I mean, it could get away from you. It's on one hand, but if you slow down too much, it's a gridlock and you, you misfire. What's your thoughts on this? >>Yeah, that, that balance of scale and speed. Um, and it definitely is a balance there. You know, I think there's always a danger of over architect ng for your current state of reality. Um, and you know, one of the things that I've learned over the years is, you've got to, you got to scale your process and scale your architecture to where you're at and where you're going to be soon, if you start Designing for five years, 10 years down the road, um it's going to slow you down in the short term and you might never get to where you thought you were going to be in five or 10 years. You've got to build for where you're at, built for where you're going soon, you're not gonna go for the future. And this is, it ties into these ideas like evolutionary architecture, like how do you build in a way that makes change easy because, you know, things are always going to change. Um, you know, some of the recent trends around things like project product playing so well to this, right? It's not like a project team comes together and builds the solution and then walks away and the solution works untouched for years or decades. Instead, it's it's that agile approach of is a product team there long lived. They own what they're building and they support it and they continue to enhance it, going forward to improve their ability to meet their customers needs over time. >>Yeah, and I think that's a super important point. The magical product team that just scales infinitely by itself while you're sleeping is different. Again, the team formation is an indicator of that. So, I think this whole agility going to the next level really is all about, you know, a series of these teams. Micro micro teams. Microservices, I mean, again, monolithic applications yielded monolithic organizations. >>Microservices >>brings in kind of this open source ethos, this new hate to use the term to Pizza team because it's an Amazonian thing, but it kind of applies here, Right? So you got to have these teams. I had to focus and to end and take ownership of that, whether it's product, platform or project at the end of the day, you're still serving customers. Final question for you on. Well, I got you here. I know end user experience you brought this up earlier. This is a huge important piece. I think last year, you and I talked about this briefly in our interview as developers come to the front lines of the business, some of them all don't have M B A. S and that always, you know, going to business school and some of the best engineers shouldn't go to business school in my opinion, But but you know, they have to learn the vernacular of complex topics, understand quality, get bring craft into the software more and more developers on the front lines closer and closer to the customer as they go direct. This is a huge change from just 5, 10 years ago. What's your thoughts on this? And what do you tell people when when they say hey donnie what how should I ah posture to the customer? What can I do to get better? What do you say to that? >>Yeah it's a great question. Um and it's one that I think a lot of companies are struggling to solve. How do we bring developers closer to the customers? And what does that mean? One of the things that we do regularly at Dr is we bring our developers along on customer interviews. So our product managers are constantly out there, you know kind of beating the virtual street, talking to developers talking to customers. Um and regularly they'll bring developers on the same team along. This is super valuable in helping our developers really build an understanding of the customers are building for, right. It may not even be about that specific thing that they're building on that one day. Um but it's about understanding the customer's needs and really making that something that is internalized in the way they think about how do they solve problems? How do they design solutions? How do they do? So in a way that is much more likely to resonate with the customers. Um Do they have an NBA? No, but where do you start? You gotta start somewhere? You start by bringing people into the conversation, so we don't expect them to lead an interview. We expect them to come along, learn and ask questions. And what happens so often is that people with, you know, the business in other companies might say yeah, developers, they're just these tech people will just like give him a set of requirements and they'll deliver stuff. Um but bring them along for the ride and letting them interact with the customers that are using their product is an amazing and exciting experience for developers. We hear consistently just super excited, treat back. >>It's clearly the trend. I mean one of the best, the best performing teams have the business and developers working together. It's really interesting phenomenon. I think it's going to change the makeup of taking that and to end approach to a whole nother level dani. Great to have you on. Great to see you final question. Um take a minute to put a plug in for the product team over there. What are you working on? What are you most excited about? Give a quick plug? >>You know, I am super excited about what we're doing in both trusted content and around team collaboration. Um I think both of those are just going to be amazing. Amazing opportunities to improve how developers are working on their microservices. It's so fragmented, it's so complicated that helping make that easier is going to be really important and valuable an area for development teams to focus on. >>Uh, Dr khan 2021 Virtual, Donnie Bergholz, VP of products and Dakar, good friend of the CUBA and the industry as well. Dani, thanks for that. Great insight and sharing some gems you drop there. Thanks. >>All right. Thank you. All >>right. Dr khan coverage I'm john for your host of the cube, The Cube track here at Dakar 2021 virtual. Thanks for watching. Mhm.

(upbeat music) >> Okay, welcome back to theCUBES's coverage of Dockercon 2021. I'm John Furrier, your host of theCUBE. We have Justin Cormack, CTO of Docker. Was also involved in the CNCF technical oversight and variety of other technical activities. Justin, great to see you. Thanks for coming on theCUBE Virtual this year, again, twice in a row and maybe next year will be in person but certainly hybrid, great to see you. >> Yeah, great to see you too. Yeah, in person would be nice one of these days, yes. >> Yeah, when we get real life back. It's almost there, I can feel it, but there's so much activity. One of the things that we've been talking about, certainly in theCUBE and even here at DockerCon, same story. The pandemic really hasn't truly impacted developer community, because most of the people have been working remotely and virtually for many, many decades. And if you think about just in the past 10 years, all the innovation in cloud has come from virtual teams, open-source softwares, always had good kind of governance and a democratization of kind of how it becomes built. So not a bit's been skipped during the pandemic. In fact, if anything supply chain of software development has increased. So- >> Yeah, I think that it's definitely true that open-source was really the place that pioneered remote working. And a lot of the work methods the people worked out to do open-source as in communication and things like that, were things that people have adopted. It's a slightly different community. I'd say open-source projects like meetings less than some other organizations, but there was definitely that pioneering thing. And a lot of the companies that started off remote first, were in open-source software, and they started off for those reasons as well because developers were already working like that, and they could just hire them and they could continue to work like that. >> Yeah, one of the upsides of all this is that people won't tolerate even zoom or in person meetings that just go on, 15, 30 minutes good call. Why do we have a meeting? What's the purpose? (faintly speaking) the way to go. Let's get into the developer community. One of the things I love about DockerCon this year 2021 is the envelopes being pushed again almost to another level, it's almost a new level, this next level of containers is bringing more innovation to the table and productivity and simplicity. Some of the same messages last year but now more than ever, stuff's going on. What are you hearing directly from the community? You talk to a lot of the developers out of the millions of developers in the Docker ecosystem. What are they saying now in 2021? What's going on in their mind? >> Yeah, I think it's an area... More and more people are using Docker, and they're using it every day and it's a change that's been going on, obviously for a while, but it begins to sort of, as it spreads, the kind of developers using Docker, so different from... When I started at Docker, coming up for six years ago, it was a very bleeding edge type thing for early adopters. Now it's everywhere, millions and millions of ordinary developers are using Docker every day. And the kinds of things that's telling us is, well, some of this stuff that we thought, well, five years ago was an amazing breakthrough and simplicity. Now that's on its own still too hard. One of the things I mentioned in my keynote was that, we're talking to developers who just primarily have been working windows all their life but more and more applications being shipped on Linux. And they using Linux containers, but they find Docker files really hard because they have really, Linux shell scrapes and not a windows developer doesn't know how to use a Linux shell script. And it's bringing it down to that next level of use where you can adopt these things more easily, the pitched to the kind of level of developer who is just thinking about their language, their APIs and they don't want to have to learn kind of lots of new things to do Docker. They'll learn some, but they really wanted to kind of integrate better into the environments they work in and help them more. We've been working on a lot of detailed instructions about like how to use Docker better with JavaScript and Python, because people have told us, be specific about these things, tell us exactly how I do make things work well with the way I'm doing things now. >> What is the big upside for containers for the folks watching? And last year, one of the most popular sessions was the one-on-one Peter McKay did, which was fascinating, packed with people. And the adoption of containers is going everywhere and enabling a lot of growth. What's the main message to these new developers that are coming on board to ecosystem. >> I think what's happening is that people are gradually, very slowly starting to think about containers in a different way. When we started, the question everyone kept asking was about containers and VMS, what's the difference? That question didn't really, kind of really address what the big fundamental changes that containers made to how people work was. I'd like to think about it in terms of the physical shipping containers, like people are concerned about like, can you escape from the box? Can I get out of a container? These kinds of questions. This is not really the important question about containers is kind of escape from the box. The question is, what does it enable you to build? The shipping container let us build the supply chains that let people build products and factories and things that would never have been possible without the ability to actually just ship things in a routine and predictable and reliable and secure way, getting that content and the things that come in the container and you actually work more effectively. And, so I think that now we're talking about like what's the effect of containers on the industry as a whole? What are the things that we can learn about repeatability and documentation and metadata and reliability, that we kind of talked about a little bit before, but these are becoming the important use cases for containers. Containers are really about, they're not about that kind of security and escape piece, there're about the content, the supply chain and your actual process of working. >> What do you, first of all, great call out on the security piece. I want to get that in a second. I think that's a killer one. You've mentioned supply chain, can you define software supply chain, and is that where the automation value comes in? Because a lot of people are talking about automation is improving the developer experience. So can you clarify quickly, what do you mean by the software supply chain? And is that where automation comes in? Am I getting that right? >> Yeah, so the software supply chain is really that process by which you get components of software to build your applications. Around 99% of companies are using open-source software to build applications. And the vast majority of the pieces of any modern application art consists mainly of open-source software and some tries source software, and some software that people are writing themselves. But you've got to get these components in, you've got to make sure that they're updated and scanned and they're reliable. And that's the software supply chain is that process for bringing in components that you're using to build your applications. And so, the way automation comes in, is just because there's so much of the software dealing with it manually is just difficult, and it's an ongoing process of build and test and CI and all those scanning and all those processes. And I think as software developers, we fundamentally know that the most valuable things are the things that we automate. They're the things that we do all the time and they're important. And that a lot of building a software is about building repeatable processes, rather than just doing things one by one, because we know that we have to keep updating software, we have to keep fixing bags, we have to keep improving software. And so you've got to be able to keep doing these things, and automation is what helps us do that. >> I was talking to Dana Lawson the VP of Engineering at GitHub, and she and I were chatting about this one topic. I want to get your thoughts on it, because she was definitely of the camp of automation helps with productivity. No doubt, check, double check there. The question I have for you is how do you see the impact on say the developer experience and innovation specifically? Because, okay, I can see the productivity, okay, something happens a bunch of times automated. Then you start thinking about supply chain, then you thought about developer experience and ultimately with Kubernetes around the corner, with the relationship with containers, you can see the cloud-native benefits from an innovation standpoint. Can you share your thoughts on the automation impact to experience for the developer and the innovation strategies they need? >> Well, I think that one of the ways we're trying to think about everything we do at Docker is that we should be helping build processes rather than helping you do something once, because, if you do something three times, you want to automate it, but what if the first time you did it, that could also build that automated process. And if it was, why isn't it as easy to make something automated as it is to do it once? There's no real reason why it shouldn't be. And I think that kind of... I was having a conversation with someone the other day about how they would... They had kind of reversed their thinking and they found that often it was easier to start with automation and harder to do things manually. And that's a kind of real reversal of that kind of role between automation and doing stuff run, so, and it's not how we think about it, but I think it's really interesting to think about that kind of thing, and how could we make automation really, really simple. >> Well, that's a great example when you have that kind of environment, and certainly the psychology is better to have automation but if everyone's saying it's hard to do manual, that means they're at some sort of scale, right? So scale matters, right? So as you start getting the SRE vibes going, and you start getting Cloud Scale in cloud-native apps, that's going to be cool. Now, the question I want to ask you, because while the other thing that's happening is more people are coming into open-source than ever before, not just young developers, but also end users. Not like the hardcore-end users, looking like classic enterprises are coming in. So as more developers come in and increase over the year, what does that mean for the experience for developers? Now you have, does that change it? How do you view that? Because as more developers come in, you have institutional knowledge, you have scale, you have learnings, what's your thoughts on on the impact as the population of developers increase? How does Docker view that? >> Yeah, now, I think it's really interesting trend. It's been very visible in CNCF for the last few years. We've been seeing a lot more active end-user, company's doing open-source. Spotify has been one of the examples with a backstage project they brought into CNCF and other areas where they work. And I think it's part of this growing trend that's really important to Docker, Docker is a bottom up technology adoption company. Developers are using Docker because it works for them and they love it. And developers are doing open-source in their companies because open-source works for them and they love it. And it works for their business as well. And whereas historically like the the model was, you would buy kind of large enterprise products, with big procurement deals that were often not what the developers wanted, but now you're getting developers saying, what we want to do is adopt these open-source projects, because we know how they work, we already understand that we know how to integrate them better into our processes. And I think it's that developer lad demand that's really important, and it's the kind of integration that developers want to do, the kind of products that they want to work with, because they understand them and love them, and they had targeted at developers and that's incredibly important. And I think that's very much where Docker's focused and we really want to... Open-source is of the core of everything we've always done. We've built with the open-source community, and we've kind of come from that kind of environment. And we built things that we love as developers and that other developers love. >> Talk about your thoughts on security. Obviously it's always built in from the beginning, Shift-Left is the ethos, day two operations, AI apps, whatever people want to call that. Post-deployment mode, security has to be at the center of this, containers can be a great solution and give some great flexibility for developers. Can you talk about your view and Docker view on the security posture and situation? >> Yeah, I think Shift-Left is incredibly important because just doing things late, everyone knows is the wrong thing from the point of view of productivity. But I think Shift-Left can just mean, ask the developers to do everything, which is really a bit too much. I think that sometimes things need to be shifted even further left than people have actually thought. So like, why are you expecting developers to scan components to see if they're allowed to use? If they should be using them or they should be updated, why hasn't that happened before the developer even gets there? I think there's a, I sorted my keynote about this whole piece, about trusted content. And it's really important that we really shift that even further left, so it's long before it gets to the developer, those things that are happening. Security, it's a huge area, of course, but it's very much, we need to help developers because security is non-obvious. I think the more you understand about security, the more you understand that it doesn't come naturally to people and they need to be helped with it, and they need to learn a lot about things in a way to, I found myself that, learning how to think like an attacker is a really important way of thinking about how to secure softwares, like what what would they do rather than just thinking about the normal kind of, oh, this works in the (faintly speaking) What happens if things go wrong? That you have to think about as well. So there's a lot of work to do to educate and help and build tools that help developers there. And it's been really good working with Snyk, cause they're a very developer focused security company, that's why we chose to work with them. Whereas historically, security companies have been very oriented towards kind of the operator side of it, not the development side, not the developer experience. And the other piece is really around supply chain security. That's just kind of a new security area. And it's very important from the container point of view, because one of the things containers let you do is really control the components that you're using to build applications and manage them better. And so we can really build tooling that helps you manage, that helps you understand what's in a container, helps you understand where it came from, how it was built and automate those processes and sign and authenticate them as well. And we've been working with CNCF on Nature V2, which is for signing revamp of the container signing process, because people really want to know who originated this container? Where did it come from? What did they say is in it? There's a lot of work about build up materials and composition analysis and all those things that you need to know about. What's in a container, and the... >> Everyone wants to know what's in a container. If you've got a Kubernetes cluster for instance, that's all highly secure and in comes a container, how do you know what the... There's no perimeter, right? So again, as you said, thinking like an attack vector there, you got to understand that, this is where the action is, right? This is where a lot of work's being done on this idea of always on security. You don't know when the container's coming in. during the run stage, you're running a business now, it's not just build and share, your running infrastructure. >> Absolutely, you really want full control about everything that goes into it, and you want to know where everything that you're running in production came from, and you pretty tired of this, and that's your end to end supply chain. It's everything from developer inputs through the build process and grow to production. And in production, understanding whether it needs to be updated and whether there's new discover vulnerabilities and whether it's being attacked and how that relates back to what came into it in the first place. >> Lot more intelligence, lot more monitoring. You guys are enabling all that I know it's cool. Great stuff. Hey, I want to get your thoughts on just what got you here on the calendar, looking at the DockerCon '21 event, and we're having a fun time here with, we're on theCUBE track, get the keynote track. But if you look at the sessions that's going on, you got, and I'll get your comment on this, cause it's really interesting how it's cleverly laid out this is. You've got the classic run share build and then you've got a track called accelerate, interesting metadata around these labels. Take us through, because this basically shows the maturation of containers. We already talked about the relationship, somewhat with Kubernetes, everyone kind of sees that direction clearly, but you got acceleration, which is a key new track, but run, share, build, what's your reaction to that? Share your observations of what the layout of those names and what it means to an enterprise and people building. >> Yeah, (faintly speaking) has been Docker's kind of motto for a long time. It kind of encapsulates that kind of process of like, the developer building application, the collaborative piece that's really important about sharing content in containers and then obviously putting into production because that's the aim. But, accelerate is incredibly important too. Developers are just being asked to do a lot. Everything is software, there's a lot of software, and a lot of software has to be created and we've got to make it easier to do this. And that kind of getting quickly from idea to business outcomes and results is what modern software teams are really driving at. And, I think we've really been focused this last year on what the team needs to succeed, and especially, small focused teams delivering business value. It's how we're structured internally as well and is how our customers, to a large extent are structured. And there's that kind of focus on accelerating those business outcomes and the feedback loops from your ideas to what the feedback that your customers give you at helping you understand that it's really important. >> Talk about final question for you in terms of the topic here, cloud, hybrid cloud, multicloud, this is, put multicloud asides more hype. Everyone has multiple clouds, but it speaks to the general distributed computing architecture when you talk about public cloud and on-premises cloud operations. So modern developers looking at that as, okay, distributed environment, edge, whatever you're going to call it. What's your view of Docker as it goes forward for the folks watching, who have experience with Docker, loved the vibe, loved the open-source, but now I've got to start thinking about putting the containers everywhere. What's the Docker pitch, so to speak, with a tech story that they should walk away with from you? What's the story, what's the pitch? >> Yeah, so containers everywhere has been a sort of emerging trend for a while, the last year or so. The whole Kubernetes at the edge thing has really exploded with people experimenting with lots and lots of different architectures for different kinds of environments at the edge. What's totally clear is that people want to be able to update software really easily at the edge the way you can in the cloud. We can't have the sort of, there's no point in shipping a modern piece of manufacturing equipment that you can't update the software on, because the software is how it works, more and more equipment is becoming very general purpose, people making general purpose robots, general purpose factories, general purpose everything which need to be specialized into the application they're going to run that week. And also people are getting more and more feedback and data and feedback from the data. So if you're building something that runs on a farm, you're getting permanent feedback about how well it's doing and how well the crops are growing was coming back. And so everywhere you've got this, we need to update. And everywhere you need to update, you want containers because containers are the simple reliable way to update software. >> I know you talked about CNCF and your role there. Also the CTO of Docker, I have to ask cause we were just covered Coop con and cloud-native con just last month and this month. And it's clear that Kubernetes is becoming boringly good in a way that's good to be boring, right? It means it's working. And it's becoming more cloud-native con than Coop-con. That has been kind of editorial observation, which speaks to what we feel is a trend towards more cloud-native discussions, less about Kubernetes. So, it's still Kubernetes stuff going on, don't get me wrong, just saying it's not as controversial in the sense that people kind of clearly understand why that's important, and all the discussions now seem to be on cloud-native modern developer workflows. What's your reaction to that? Do you agree, if not, what's your take? >> Yeah, I think that's definitely true. Kubernetes is definitely much more boring. Everyone is using it. They're using it in production now vastly more than they were a few years ago, when it was just experiment, experiment, experiment, now it's production scale out. The ecosystem in CNCF is kind of huge. There's so many little bits that have to be filled in storage and networking and all that. So there's actually a lot of pieces that are around Kubernetes, but, there's definitely more of a focus coming on the developer experience there. Compared to DockerCon, the audience at Coop Con is incarnated kind of still much more operator focused rather than developer focused. And it's very nice coming to DockerCon, just to feel like being amongst that developer community, Coop Con still has a way to gauge to have more of a real developer audience, but the project is starting to pair with a more developer focused kind of aim or things like backstage from Spotify is a really interesting one where it's about operations, but it's a developer portal focused things. So, I think it's happening, and there's a lot more talk about that. There's a whole bunch of infrastructure, there's a lot more security projects in CNCF than they were before. And we're doing a lot of work on supply chain security and CNCF just released a white paper on that few days ago. So there's a lot of work there that touches on developer needs. I still think that audience (faintly speaking) that much different from DockerCon which is I think 80% developers and maybe 10% infrastructure rather than the other way round. >> I think if you're going to get operators it can be SRE/platformleads. The platform leads are definitely inside DockerCon now than they've ever been before from my observation. So, but that speaks to the sign of the times. Most development teams have an SRE in the team, not an SRE team. They're just starting to see much more integration amongst the kind of a threaded or threaded teams or whatnot. So... >> Yeah. (faintly speaking) Operate your apps is the model. And I think that it's going to lead to more and more crossover between these communities. It's what DevOps was supposed to be about, somehow got diverted into building DevOps teams instead of working together, but we'll get there. >> It's clear from my standpoint, at least from reporting here is that, from the DockerCon and community at large, cloud-native community, having end-to-end work-load visibility on developer test run, everything seems to be the consensus, without a doubt. And then having multiple teams, and then having some platform, have some flexing people moving between teams for the most part, but built insecurity, built in SRE, built in DevOps, DevSecOps, all the way from end-to-end. >> Absolutely, we know that that's what does work best, it's where most organizations are heading at different speeds, because it's very different from the traditional architecture. It takes time to get there, but that's the model that has come out of microservices that really containers enabled and allow that model to happen. And it's the team architecture of containers. >> Hey, monolithic applications have monolithic organizations, microservices have microservices teams. Justin, great to have you on theCUBE for this conversation. If folks watching this interview, check out Justin's keynote, came from the main stage, great stuff. Justin, thanks for coming on theCUBE, we really appreciate your time and insight. >> Thank you, good to see you again. >> Okay, this is theCUBES's coverage of DockerCon 2021 Virtual. I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>>from >>around the globe. It's >>the cube >>with digital >>coverage of IBM >>Think 2021 >>brought to you by IBM. Welcome back to the cubes coverage of IBM Think 2021 virtual, I'm john for your host of the cube. We're here virtual again in real life soon is right around the corner but we got a great guest here, Cameron art managing director at A T and T for IBM. Cameron manages the A T and T global account for IBM camera. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on the cube. >>Thank you very much, john it's great to be >>Here. Uh, can almost imagine how complicated and big and large a TNT is with respect to IBM in the history and 18 very large company. What's the relationship with I B M and A T and T over the years? How has that evolved? And what, how do you approach that role as the managing director? >>Well, it's been fascinating. Um as you said, we've got to large complex companies but also to brand names that are synonymous for innovation, whether it be in in compute or technology or communications. But the most fascinating thing is if you look back at our relationship and this is two brands that have been around for well over 100 years. Our relationship actually has some fascinating backdrop to it. My favorite is in 1924, A T and T sent a picture of thomas Watson sr over a telephone wire to IBM and thomas Watson said they sent this over the telephone. We are united in a community of interest. They want to make it easier for businesses to transact as do I. We need to work together. And since then, there has been a number of advanced advances that both of us have driven collectively and individually. And it's been a it's been a long running and treasured relationship in the IBM company. >>It's such a storied relationship on both sides. I mean, the history is just amazing. They could do a whole History Channel segment on both 18 T N I B M. Uh but together, it's kind of the better together story, as you pointed out from that example, going back to sending a picture with the phone lines, like, oh my God, that's instagram on the internet um, happening. But how are they responding to the relationship now? I'll see with cloud, um Native exploding with the ability to get more access and you're seeing a lot more things evolved, more complexity is emerging. That needs to be abstracted away. You're seeing businesses saying, hey, I can do more with less, I can connect more more access. But then that also services more potential opportunities and challenges. How are you responding with a T and T? How are they responding to that dynamic with you guys? >>Yeah, I think it's fascinating because when I originally approached this relationship and I've been doing this for 12 months now, a little over 12 months and when I originally approach it as with anything else, many times, you're trying to enter something that is quite special and make it even better. And my approach at least initially with AT and T was very much one of, we're going to provide even better service. We're going to jointly grow together in the market and strengthen each of our businesses and we're gonna work for something broader than ourselves. And I'll get into a little more of the last point later. But those first two things from an A T T response perspective, and I think this is a common perspective among many clients is we'll see if your actions follow your words. And so it's been a process. We've gone through to understand that I'm a champion for A T and T inside of IBM and those interests that we share individually and collectively will be represented at the highest levels. And we will mature this relationship into one of not just kind of supply chain partners because we're very complementary to each other, but more ecosystem partners and my belief in my core. And you see this much with many of the business strategies that are out there. The ecosystem strategy, this sum is greater than the parts, it's not a zero sum game is something that's absolutely blooming in the market. >>Yeah, that ecosystem message is one of the things that's resonating and coming clearly out of IBM think 2021 this year and in the industry is seeing the success of network effects, ecosystem changes is the constant that's happening. Certainly the pandemic and now coming out of it, people want to have a growth strategy that's gonna be relevant, current and impactful. And you you pointed that out growth with each other is interesting. And you you shared some perspective on this just recently with an example of what is underway there where you heading with that? I mean talk more about this growth with each other because that really is an ecosystem dynamic. What is underway and where are you heading? >>It's a fascinating ecosystem dynamic and it's something that we've adopted wholeheartedly within AT and T in terms of not only how we work. So there are very basic examples examples like we, rather than answering our PS and responding to uh to requirements, we're co creating with our clients, we have multiple cloud garages going with a T and T. Where we identify outcomes that we believe could be possible and then we show and allow the client to experience the outcome of that rather than a power point slides. So there's this kind of base of how do you work with each other? But then much more broadly in the market, it didn't take long for us to realize that, you know, the addressable market, if if I were selling A T and T, everything I could ever sell them and at and T was selling IBM everything they could ever sell us. The addressable market is, let's say $10 billion. But the moment at which we pointed ourselves outside to the external market, we realize that that market opportunity expands by a factor of 20 or by a factor of 50, we have the opportunity to create unique value together. And I think that kind of comes from the core of how we work together. >>I'm also intrigued by your comments about working together for a greater purpose. You said you'd address that later. What do you mean by that? I mean that's a little bit very higher purpose. Um North Star and as you mentioned, you know, working together in the ecosystem that kind of seems tactical and strategic as well. But what's this greater purpose? What does that mean? >>Well, my belief and it's something I learned actually, as I got indoctrinated into the work that 18 T does the work that IBM does and how we do it. But we share many common purposes in terms of what we believe on the whole, in terms of progress in society. So for example, equality in the workplace. We hosted a women's day lunch and actually multiple women stays lunch days luncheons across the United States, where we had hundreds of female leaders from both IBM and AT and T. Collaborating together talking about how tips and tricks for how they continue to advance in the workplace. Another example is in equality and diversity and inclusion. Both A T and T and IBM have a strong commitment and if you'll see IBM just published, just published their diversity and inclusion study where we actually demonstrate here the numbers, here's our targets, here's where we want to get 18 T has exactly that same belief. Finally, in stem education for educating our future leaders in science and technology, engineering and math. Both 18 T and IBM for our future, need those skills showing up in the marketplace and Corey Anthony is just a quick spot for any of you would think cory cory Anthony who see it diversity and development Officer at AT and T is going to give a great presentation on A. T. N. T. S work in stem for younger generations. So there are many things that are, I would say societal on a broader purpose statement that we share a belief in together, >>that's awesome people and also people want to work on a team that's mission driven, has impact beyond just the profit and loss me, I love capitalism personally myself, I'm an entrepreneur but been there done that, but we're living in a cultural shift. Now we're starting to see a remote work. You're starting to see virtual teams, new use cases that have different expectations and experiences um, in the work place and also at home. So you know, with mobile that could be on the side of the soccer fields or you know, skiing or running or jogging and take a message to pull over to a chat, jump into an audio chat, listen to a podcast, engage. So we're all tethered now, this is exchanging the experiences and this is going to change the game for how you work together. >>100%. And by the way, we're all teller tethered hopefully through a T and T mobile connectivity devices, it was kind of amusing how much that has become a part of our lives and the core value, one of the core value propositions of AT and T is obviously connecting businesses to each other, but also consumers through their mobile brand, but also then to entertainment. I will say when I was in Augusta at the Masters, you know, people that have been there know that you're not allowed to have cell phones. It was amazing just in conversations how often whoever was I was having a conversation with and myself would say, well I'd like to look that up, hold on, can I get that statistic and and we we realized we're missing a big part of our of our lives in terms of communication. But those requirements of connecting people in new ways and in their homes were remotely actually only reinforce this shared value proposition of when you have the technology and you have it securely between our company IBM and A T and T. We play a massive part in that and it's something I'm quite proud of. >>You guys have a really interesting position there with the history of with the relationship and as you pointed out, A T and T has to be in the forefront of cutting edge user experience technology bringing. I mean, they are the edge. I mean they ultimately from base station down to the device to the person to the account you're talking about a real edge there, that's a person's consumer. Um They got to provide these new services. So I gotta ask you, you mentioned at the top of this interview that your goal is to provide even better service to a T and T. A pretty big pressure point for IBM. You know, you gotta deliver step up and their expectations must be high. Can you take us through perspectives on that kind of even better service when you've got a client that's on the cutting edge of having to deliver new kinds of things like better notifications. Smarter devices, Smarter software, more fault tolerant, highly available services. These are things that, you know, there's a lot of pressure take us through that what's it like? >>There is a lot of pressure, but there's a lot of consistency in terms of expectations and it's something that both of us understand very well and I would argue that it's probably the reason we work so well together, Both 18 T and IBM for years uh namely 50 hundreds of years have understood that if we're transacting for business, were transaction transacting on something that has to get done so on both sides of the equation. Not only do we push the edge of what can be done technically or for business, but we also understand the expectations of the business clients that are, it works every time and it works in every way I needed to. So for us, when we work together, I think that healthy balance of uh part musician, part engineer uh comes out very, very strongly in both teams, >>camera great insight and great to talk to you. I love to get the perspective on, you know, the kind of challenges and opportunities that you're um seizing at IBM with A T and T. Again, the history is amazing. Um the impact of the industry at both levels you mentioned Tom Watson senior than you got Junior. That in that generation just carries forward. You got that vibe back now with hybrid cloud. Arvin loves clouds. So, you know, you got a lot of things happening and it's really strong over at IBM and the theme this year generally is better together. So awesome, awesome work. Congratulations. >>Thank you very much. I will tell you, I don't want to I don't want to miss the opportunity to talk a bit about the future because from an A T and T and IBM perspective, we're doing a load of work around private five G or five G in general. This is something that provides an absolutely low latency, huge band with with a lot of actually characteristics from a business perspective that are manageable and it will enable. What I believe is another big wave in the technology and business industry, which is new business models very similar to that of the Internet. Originally, it allows with IBM technology and 18 T technology, they have something called multi access. Such compute these are absolutely blazing fast. Five G boxes that will be in not only businesses but universities, sports stadiums, you name that, you name it, changing the experience of how people consume technology or the benefits of technology, which I couldn't be more excited about >>awesome future ahead. Great. There's a big wave certainly away we've never seen before. Cameron, art managing Director at A T and T at IBM. Great insight. Thanks for sharing. Thanks for coming on. >>Thanks john >>Okay, Cube coverage of IBM think 2021. I'm John Ferrier. Thanks for watching. Mm. Mhm. Mhm.

>>from >>around the >>globe, it's the >>cube with digital >>coverage of IBM, >>Think 2021 >>brought to you by IBM. Welcome back to the cubes coverage of IBM Think 2021 virtual, I'm john for your host of the cube, had a great line up here talking sustainability. Kary musa ph d general manager of AI applications and block chains, career great to see you and wayne both the vice president of corporate environmental affairs and chief sustainability officer, among other things involved in the products around that. Wait and korean, great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >>Thank you for having us. >>Well, I'll start with you. What's driving? IBMS investment sustainability as a corporate initiative. We know IBM has been active, we've covered this many times, but there's more drivers now as IBM has more of a larger global scope and continues to do that with hybrid cloud, it's much more of a global landscape. What's driving today's investments in sustainability, >>you know, johN what drives IBM in this area has always been a longstanding, mature and deep seated belief in corporate responsibility. That's the bedrock foundation. So, you know, IBM is 100 10 year old company. We've always strived to be socially responsible, But what's not as well known is that for the last 50 years, IBM has truly regarded environmental sustainability is a strategic imperative. Okay, It's strategic because hey, environmental problems require a strategic fix. It's long term imperative because you have to be persistent with environmental problems, you don't necessarily solve them overnight. And it's imperative because business cannot succeed in a world of environmental degradation, that really is the main tenant of sustainable development. You can't have successful economies with environmental degradation, you can't solving environmental problems without successful economies. So, and IBM's case as a long standing company, We were advantaged because 50 years ago our ceo at the time, Tom Watson put in place the company's first policy for environmental, our stewardship and we've been at it ever since. And he did that in 1971 and that was just six months after the U. S. C. P. A. Was created. It was a year before the Stockholm Conference on the Environment. So we've been added for that long. Um in essence really it's about recognizing that good environmental management makes good business sense. It's about corporate responsibility and today it's the E of E. S. G. >>You know, wayne. That's a great call out, by the way, referencing thomas Watson that IBM legend. Um people who don't may not know the history, he was really ahead of its time and that was a lot of the culture they still see around today. So great to see that focus and great, great call out there. But I will ask though, as you guys evolved in today's modern error. How is that evolved in today's focus? Because you know, we see data centers, carbon footprint, global warming, you now have uh A I and analytics can measure everything. So I mean you can you can measure everything now. So as the world gets larger in the surface area of what is contributing to the sustainable equation is larger, what's the current IBM focus? >>So, you know, these days we continually look at all of the ways in which IBM s day to day business practices intersect with any matter of the environment, whether it's materials waste water or energy and climate. And IBM actually has 21 voluntary goals that drive us towards leadership. But today john as you know, uh the headline is really climate change and so we're squarely focused like many others on that. And that's an imperative. But let me say before I just before I briefly tell you our current goals, it's also important to have context as to where we have been because that helps people understand what we're doing today. And so again, climate change is a topic that the men and women of IBM have paid attention to for a long time. Yeah, I was think about it. It was back in 1992 that the U. S. C. P. A. Created something called Energy Star. People look at that and they say, well, what's that all about? Okay, that's all about climate change. Because the most environmentally friendly energy you can get is the energy that you don't really need to consume. IBM was one of eight companies that helped the U. S. C. P. A. Launched that program 1992. Today we're all disclosing C. 02 emissions. IBM began doing that in 1994. Okay. In 2007, 13 years ago, I'd be unpublished. Its position on climate change, calling for urgent action around the world. We supported the Paris agreement 2015. We reiterated that support in 2017 for the us to remain a partner. 2019, we became a founding member of Climate Leadership Council, which calls for a carbon tax and a carbon dividend. So that's all background context. Today, we're working on our third renewable electricity goal, our fifth greenhouse gas emissions reduction goal and we set a new goal to achieve net zero greenhouse gas emissions. Each of those three compels IBM to near term >>action. That's awesome wayne as corporate environmental affairs and chief sustainable, great vision and awesome work. Karim dr Karim use if I wanna. We leave you in here, you're the general manager. You you've got to make this work because of the corporate citizenship that IBM is displaying. Obviously world world class, we know that's been been well reported and known, but now it's a business model. People realize that it's good business to have sustainability, whether it's carbon neutral footprints and or intersecting and contributing for the world and their employees who want mission driven companies ai and Blockchain, that's your wheelhouse. This is like you're in the big wave, wow, this is happening, give us your view because you're commercializing this in real time. >>Yeah, look as you've already said and it's the way well articulated, this is a business imperative, right? Is key to all companies corporate strategies. So the first step when you think about operationalized in this is what we've been doing, is to really step back and kind of break this down into what we call five key needs or focus areas that we've understood that we work with our clients. Remember in this context, Wayne is indeed my clients as well. Right. And so when you think about it, the five needs, as we like to lay them out, we talk about the sustainability strategy first of all, how are you approaching it as you saw from Wayne, identifying your key goals and approaches right against that, you begin to get into various areas and dimensions. Climate risk management is becoming increasingly important, especially in asset heavy industries electrification, energy and emissions management, another key focus area where we can bring technology to bear resilient infrastructure and operations, sustainable supply chain, all of these kind of come together to really connect with our clients business operations and allows us to bring together the technologies and the context of ai Blockchain and the key business operations. We can support to kind of begin to address specific news cases in the context of those needs. >>You know, I've covered it in the past and written about and also talked about the cube about sustainability on the supply chain side with Blockchain, whether it's your tracking, you know, um you know, transport of goods with with Blockchain and making sure that that kind of leads your kind of philosophy works because this waste involved is also disruption to business a security issues. But when you really move into the Ai side, how does a company scale that Corinne? Because now, you know, I have to one operationalize it and then scale it. Okay, so that's transformed, innovate and scale. How do I take take me through the examples of how that works >>well, I think really key to that, and this is really key to our ethos, it's enabling ai for business by integrating ai directly into business operations and decision making. So it's not really how can I put this? We try to make it so that the client isn't fixating on trying to deploy ai, they're just leveraging Ai. So as you say, let's take some practical examples. You talked about sustainable supply chains and you know, the key needs around transparency and provenance. Right? So we have helped clients like a tear with their seafood network or the shrimp sustainability network, where there's a big focus on understanding where are things being sourced and how they're moving through the supply chain. We also have a responsible sourcing business network that's being used for cobalt in batteries as an example from mine to manufacturing and here our technologies are allowing us to essentially track, trace and prove the provenance Blockchain serves as kind of that key shared ledger to pull all this information together. But we're leveraging AI to begin to quickly assess based upon the data inputs, the actual state of inventory, how to connect dots across multiple suppliers and as you onboard them and off board them off the network. So that's how we begin to put A. I in action so that the client begins to fixate on the work and the decisions they need to make. Not the AI itself. Another quick example would be in the context of civil infrastructure. One of our clients son and Belt large, maximum client of ours, he uses maximum to really focus on the maintenance and sustainable maintenance of their bridges. Think about how much money is spent setting up to do bridge inspections right. When you think about how much they have to invest the stopping of the traffic that scaffolding. We have been leveraging AI to do things like visual inspection, actually fly drones, take pictures, assess those images to identify cracks and use that to route and prioritized work. Similar examples are occurring in energy and utilities focused on vegetation management where we're leveraging ai to analyse satellite imagery, weather data and bringing it together so that work can be optimally prior authorized and deployed um for our clients. >>It's interesting. One of the themes coming out of think that I'm observing is this notion of transformation is innovation and innovation is about scale. Right? So it's not just innovation for innovating sake. You can transform from whether it's bridge inspections to managing any other previous pre existing kind of legacy condition and bring that into a modern error and then scale it with data. This is a common theme. It applies to to your examples. Kareem, that's super valuable. Um how do you how do you tie that together with partnering? Because wayne you were talking about the corporate initiative, that's just IBM we learned certainly in cybersecurity and now these other areas like sustainability, it's a team sport, you have to work on a global footprint with other industries and other leaders. How was I being working across the industry to connect and work with other, either initiatives or companies or governments. >>Sure. And there have been john over the years and at present a number of diverse collaborations that we seek out and we participate in. But before I address that, I just want to amplify something Kareem said, because it's so important, as I look back at the environmental movement over the last 50 years, frankly, since the first earth day in 1970, I, you know, with the benefit of hindsight, I observed there have really been three different hair, It's in the very beginning, global societies had to enact laws to control pollution that was occurring. That was the late 60s 1970s, into the early 1980s and around the early 1980s through to the first part of this century, that era of let's get control of this sort of transformed, oh, how can we prevent stuff from happening given the way we've always done business and that area ran for a while. But now, thanks to technology and data and things like Blockchain and ai we all have the opportunity to move into this era of innovation, which differs from control in which differs from traditional prevention. Innovation is about changing the way you get the same thing done. And the reason that's enabled is because of the tools that you just spoke about with korean. So how do we socialize these opportunities? Well to your question, we interact with a variety of diverse teams, government, different business associations, NGos and Academia. Some examples. There's an organization named the Center for Climate and Energy Solutions, which IBM is a founding member of its Business Leadership Council. Its predecessor was the Q Centre on global climate change. We've been involved with that since 1998. That is a cross section of people from all these different constituencies who are looking for solutions to climate. Many Fortune 102000s in there were part of the green grid. The green grid is an organization of companies involved with data centers and it's constantly looking at how do you measure energy efficiency and data centers and what are best practices to reduce consumption of energy at data centers where a member of the renewable energy buyers alliance? Many Fortune 100 200 Zar in that trying to apply scale to procure more renewable electricity to actually come to our facilities I mentioned earlier were part of the Climate Leadership Council calling for a carbon tax were part of the United Nations Environment programs science policy business form that gets us involved with many ministers of environment from countries around the world. We recently joined the new MITt Climate and sustainability consortium. Mitt Premier Research University. Many key leaders are part of that. Looking at how academic research can supercharge this opportunity for innovation and then the last one, I'm just wrap up call for code. You may be familiar with IBM s involvement in call for code. Okay. The current challenge under Call for Code in 2021 calls for solutions targeted the climate change. So that's that's a diverse set of different constituents, different types of people. But we try to get involved with all of them because we learn and hopefully we contribute something along the way as well. >>Awesome Wayne. Thank you very much, Karim, the last 30 seconds we got here. How do companies partner with IBM if they want to connect in with the mission and the citizenship that you guys are doing? How do they bring that to their company real quick. Give us a quick overview. >>Well, you know, it's really quite simple. Many of these clients are already clients of ours were engaging with them in the marketplace today, right, trying to make sure we understand their needs, trying to ensure that we tune what we've got to offer both in terms of product and consulting services with our GPS brethren, you know, to meet their needs, linking that in as well to IBM being in what we like to turn clients zero. We're also applying these same technologies and capabilities to support IBM efforts. And so as they engage in all these associations, what IBM is doing, that also provides a way to really get started. It's really fixate on those five imperatives or needs are laid out, picked kind of a starting point and tie it to something that matters. That changes how you're doing something today. That's really the key. As far as uh we're concerned, >>Karim, we thank you for your time on sustainability. Great initiative. Congratulations on the continued mission. Going back to the early days of IBM and the Watson generation continuing out in the modern era. Congratulations and thanks for sharing. >>Thank you john. >>Okay. It's the cubes coverage. I'm sean for your host. Thanks for watching. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm.

>> Announcer: From around the globe it's theCUBE with digital coverage of IBM Think 2021. Brought to you by IBM. >> Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of IBM Think 2021 Virtual. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. And it's theCUBE Virtual and Uli Homann who's here, Corporate Vice President of Cloud & AI at Microsoft. Thanks for comin' on. I love this session. Obviously, Microsoft one of the big clouds. Awesome. You guys partnering with IBM here, at IBM Think. I remember during the client-server days in the '80s, late '80s to early '90s the open systems interconnect was a big part of opening up the computer industry. That was networking, intra-networking and really created more LANs and more connections for PCs et cetera, and the world just went on from there. Similar now with hybrid cloud, you're seeing that same kind of vibe, right? You're seeing that same kind of alignment with distributed computing architectures for businesses. Where now you have, it's not just networking and plumbing, and connecting, you know, LANs and PCs, and printers, it's connecting everything. It's kind of almost a whole 'nother world, but similar movie, if you will. So this is really going to be good for people who understand that market. IBM does, you guys do. Talk about the alignment between IBM and Microsoft in this new hybrid cloud space. It's really kind of now standardized, but yet it's just now coming. >> Yeah, so again, fantastic question. So the way I think about this is first of all, Microsoft and IBM are philosophically very much aligned. We're both investing in key open source initiatives like the Cloud Native Compute Foundation, CNCF, something that we both believe in. We're both partnering with the Red Hat organization so Red Hat forms a common bond, if you so want to, between Microsoft and IBM. And again, part of this is how can we establish a system of capabilities that every client has access to, and then build on top of that stack. And again, IBM does this very well with their Cloud Paks which are coming out now with data and AI, and others. So open source, open standards are key elements and then you mentioned something critical which I believe is not under, misunderstood, but certainly not appreciated enough is this is about connectivity between businesses and so part of the power of the IBM perspective together with Microsoft is bringing together key business applications for health care, for retail, for manufacturing and really make them work together so that our clients that are-- critical scenarios get the support they need from both IBM as well as Microsoft on top of this common foundation of the CNCF and other open standards. >> You know, it's interesting, I love that point. I'm going to double-down and amplify that and continue to bring it up. Connecting between businesses is one thread but now, people, because you have an edge that's also industrial, business, but also people. People are also participating in open source, people have wearables, people are connected so they can, and also they're connecting with collaboration. So this kind of brings a whole 'nother architecture which I want to get into the solutions with you on on how you see that playing out. But first, I know, you know, you're a veteran with Microsoft for many, many years, for decades. Microsoft's core competency has been ecosystems, developer ecosystems, customer ecosystems. Today, that the services motion is build around ecosystems. You guys have that playbook, IBM's well versed in it, as well. How does that impact your partnerships, your solutions, and how you deal with down this open marketplace? >> Well, let's start with the obvious. Obviously, Microsoft and IBM will work together in common ecosystems. Again, I'm going to reference the CNCF again as the foundation for a lot of these initiatives. But then we are also working together in the Red Hat ecosystem because Red Hat has built an ecosystem that Microsoft and IBM are players in that ecosystem. However, we also are looking higher level 'cause a lot of times when people think ecosystems, it's fairly low-level technology. But Microsoft and IBM are talking about partnerships that are focused on industry scenarios. Again, retail for example, or health care and others where we're building on top of these lower-level ecosystem capabilities and then bringing together the solution scenarios where the strength of IBM capabilities is coupled with Microsoft capabilities to drive this very famous one plus one equals three. And then the other piece that I think we both agree on is the open source ecosystem for software development and software development collaboration. And GitHub is a common anchor that we both believe can feed the world's economy with respect to the software solutions that are needed to really, yeah, bring the capabilities forward, help improve the world's economy and so forth by effectively bringing together brilliant minds across the ecosystem and again, just Microsoft and IBM bringing some people, but the rest of the world obviously participating in that, as well. So thinking again, open source, open standards, and then industry-specific collaboration and capabilities being a key part. You mentioned people. We certainly believe that people play a key role, software developers and the GitHub notion being a key one. But there are others where again, Microsoft with Microsoft 365 has a lot of capabilities in connecting people within the organization and across organizations. And while we're using Zoom, here, a lot of people are utilizing Teams 'cause Teams is on the one side of collaboration platform, but on the other side is also an application host. And so bringing together people collaboration supported and powered by applications from IBM, from Microsoft and others, is going to be, I think, a huge differentiation in terms of how people interact with software in the future. >> Yeah, and I think that whole joint development is a big part of this new people equation where it's not just partnering in market, it's also at the tech, and you've got open source, and it's a just phenomenal innovation formula, there. So let's ask what solutions, here. I want to get into some of the top solutions you're doing that Microsoft that maybe with IBM. But your title as the Corporate Vice President Cloud & AI, c'mon, could you get a better department? I mean, more relevant than that? I mean, it's exciting. You know, cloud scale is driving tons of innovation, AI is eating software or changing the software paradigm. We're going to see that playing out. I've done dozens of interviews just in this past month on how AI's a more, certainly with machine learning, and having a control plane with data, changing the game. So tell us, what are the hot solutions for hybrid cloud and why is this a different ballgame than say, public cloud? >> Well, so first of all, let's talk a little bit about the AI capabilities and data because I think they're two categories. You are seeing an evolution of AI capabilities that are coming out. And again, I just read IBM's announcement about integrating the Cloud Pak with IBM Satellite. I think that's a key capability that IBM is putting out there and we are partnering with IBM in two directions, there. IBM has done a fantastic job to build AI capabilities that are relevant for industries, health care being a very good example, again, retail being another one. And I believe Microsoft and IBM will work on both partnership on the technology side as well as the AI usage in specific verticals. Microsoft is doing similar things. Within our Dynamics product line, we're using AI for business applications, for planning, scheduling, optimizations, risk assessments, those kind of scenarios. And of course, we're using those in the Microsoft 365 environment, as well. I always joke that despite my 30 years at Microsoft, I still don't know how to really use PowerPoint and I can't do a PowerPoint slide for the life of me, but with a new designer, I can actually get help from the system to make beautiful PowerPoint happen. So bringing AI into real life usage I think is the key part. The hybrid scenario is critical here, as well, especially when you start to think about real life scenarios like safety, worker safety in a critical environment, freshness of product. We're seeing retailers deploying cameras and AI inside the retail stores to effectively make sure that the shelves are stocked, that the quality of the vegetables, for example, continues to be high and monitored. And previously, people would do this on an occasional basis running around in the store. Now the store is monitored 24/7 and people get notified when things need fixing. Another really cool scenario set is quality. We are working with a Finnish steel producer that effectively is looking at the stainless steel as it's being produced and they have cameras on this steel that look at specific marks. And if these marks show up then they know that the stainless steel will be bad. And I don't know if you have looked at a manufacturing process, but the earlier they can get failures detected, the better it is because they can most likely, or more often than not, return the product back into the beginning of the funnel and start over. And that's what they're using. So you can see molten steel, logically speaking, with a camera and AI. And previously, humans did this which is obviously A, less reliable and B, dangerous because this is very, very hot, this is very glowing steel. And so increasing safety while at the same time improving the quality is something that we see in hybrid scenarios. Again, autonomous driving, another great scenario where perception AI is going to be utilized. So there's a bunch of capabilities out there that really are hybrid in nature and will help us move forward with key scenarios, safety, quality, and autonomous behaviors like driving and so forth. >> Uli, great, great insight. Great product vision. Great alignment with IBM's hybrid cloud space what all customers are lookin' for, now. And certainly multicloud around the horizon. So great to have you on. Great agility, and congratulations for your continued success. You've got a great area, cloud and AI, and we'll be keeping in touch. I'd love to do a deep dive, sometime. Thanks for coming on. >> John, thank you very much for the invitation and great questions, great interview. Love it, appreciate it. >> Thank you very much. Okay, theCUBE coverage here, at IBM Think 2021 Virtual. I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching. (soft electronic music) ♪ Dah-De-Da ♪ ♪ Dah-De ♪

>> Narrator: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with coverage of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2021 virtual. Brought to you by Red Hat, The Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and ecosystem partners. >> Hey, welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of KubeCon 2021 CloudNativeCon Europe. Part of the CNCF and ongoing, could be in there from the beginning, love this community, theCUBE's proud to support and continue to cover it. We're virtual this year again because of the pandemic but it looks like we'll be right around the corner for a physical event, hopefully for the next one, fingers crossed. Got a great guest here from Red Hat. Siamak Sadeghianfar, a Senior Principal Product Manager. Welcome to theCUBE. Thanks for coming in. >> Thank you for having me. >> So, this topic's about GitOps, Pipelines, code. Obviously Infrastructure as Code has been the ethos since I can remember going back to 2008 and the original cloutaroti vision. And we were always talking about that. Now it's mainstream. Now it's DevSecOps. So, it's now, day two operations, shifting left with security. OpenShift is continuing to get, take ground. Congratulations on that. So my first question is you guys announced the general availability of OpenShift Pipelines and GitOps at KubeCon. What are, what's this about? And what's the benefits for the customer. Let's get into the news >> Thanks for, to begin with for the Congress and this, this is definitely a hot topic around the DevSecOps. And the different variations of that year about some versions that during in, in FinTech and other verticals as well. The idea is here really is that CI/CD has been around for a long time, continuous integration and continuous delivery, as one of the core practices of the DevOps movement. DevOps movement is quite widespread, now. You, you see reports of above 90% of organizations are in the process of adoption in their journey. And this is one of the main practices but something that has become quite apparent is that many of these organizations that are investing more and more in Cloud Native apps and adopting Cloud Native ways of building applications the tooling and technology that they use for CI/CD since CI/CD is nothing new is from 10 years old, five years old pre Kubernetes era which is not quite Cloud Native. So there is always a clash of how do I build Cloud Natives application using these technologies that are not really built for Cloud Native space and an OpenShift Pipelines OpenShift GitOps is really an opening in this direction and bring more Cloud Native ways of continuous integration and continuous delivery to customers on OpenShift. >> Got it, so I got to ask you, so a couple of questions on this topic, I really want to dig into. Can you describe the Cloud Native CI/CD process versus traditional CI/CD? >> Sure, so traditional when we think about CI/CD there is usually this monolithic solutions that are running on a virtual machine on a type of infrastructure that they use to deploy applications as well. 'Cause you, you need reliability and you have to be making an assumption about an infrastructure that you're running on. And when you come to Cloud Native infrastructure you have a much more dynamic infrastructure. We have a lot less assumptions. You might be running on a public cloud or on premise infrastructure or different types of public cloud. So these environments are often also containerized. So there are, there's a high chance you're running on a container platform, regardless if it's a public or on premises. And with the whole containers, you, you have different types of disciplines and principals to think in, about your infrastructure. So in the Cloud Native ways of CI/CD, you're running most likely in a container platform. You don't have dedicated infrastructure. You are running mostly on demand. You scale when there is a demand for running CI/CD, for example, rather than dedicated infrastructure to it. And also from the mode of operation from organization perspective, they are more adapted to this decentralized ways of ownership. As a part of the DevOps culture, this comes really with that movement, that more and more development teams are getting ownership of some portion of the delivery of their applications. And it's cognitive CS/CD solutions, they focus on supporting these models that you go away from that central model of control to decentralize and have more ownership, more capabilities within the development teams for delivering application. >> Okay, so I then have to ask you the next question. It's like you, like a resource, you'd say: Hey Siri, what is, what is GitOps? What is GitOps? 'Cause that's the topic that's been getting a lot of traction, everyone's talking about it. I mean we know DevOps. So what is the GitOps model? Can you define that? And is that what a, it that what comes after DevOps? Is it DevOps 2.0, what is the GitOps model? >> That's a very good question. GitOps is nothing really new. It's rather a more descriptive way of DevOps principles. DevOps talks about the cultural changes and mindset and ways of working. And when it comes to the, to the concrete work flow it is quite open for interpretation. So GitOps is one, a specific interpretation of how you, you do continuous integration and continuous delivery, how we implement DevOps. And the concept have been around for a couple of years. But just recently, it's got a lot of traction within the Cloud Native space. >> So how does GitOps fit into Kubernetes then? 'Cause that's going to be the next dot that we want to connect. What is that, what is, how, how. How does GitOps fit into Kubernetes? >> So GitOps is really the, the core principle of GitOps is that you, you, you think about everything in your infrastructure and application in a declarative manner. So everything needs to be declared in, in, in a number of gate repositories and you drive your operations through Git Workflows. Which if you think about it is quite similar to how Kubernetes operates. The, the reason Kubernetes became so popular is because of this declarative way of thinking about your infrastructure. You declare what you expect and Kubernetes actualizes that on, on some sort of infrastructure. So GitOps is, is, is exact same concept, but the, but applied not to the infrastructure itself, but to the operations of that infrastructure, operations of those applications. It becomes a really nice fit together. It's the same mindset really applied in different place. >> It's like Kubernetes is like the linchpin or the enabler for GitOps. Just a whole nother level of, I mean, I think GitOps essentially DevOps 2.0 in my opinion because it takes this whole nother level above that for the developer modern developer because it allows them to do more. So it's been around for a while. We've been talking about this, it's got a new name but GitOps is kind of concept has been around. Why is the increase adoption happening now in your opinion or do you have any data on or any facts or opinion on why it's such an increase in, in conversation and adoption? >> You had the, you had like very accurate point there that Kubernetes has been a great enabler for, for DevOps and later the same applies to GitOps as well because of that, that great fit. It has been, GitOps the concept has been there but implementation of that has been quite difficult before Kubernetes and also for non-containerized environments. Kubernetes is, is a very potent platform for this kind of operation because the the mindset and the ways of working is really native to how Kubernetes thinks. But there is also another driver that has been influential in, in the rise of GitOps in the last year or two. And this is an observation we see at a lot of our customers, that the number of clusters that organizations are deploying, Kubernetes clusters increasing. As their maturity increases they get more comfortable with Cloud Native way of working and transfer the workflows to become Cloud Native, they are, they are having, they move more and more of their infrastructure to Kubernetes clusters. So a new challenge rises with this. And now that I have a larger number of clusters how do I ensure consistency across all these, all these clusters? So before I had to deploy an application to production environment, perhaps, which meant two clusters across two geographical zones. Now I have to deploy to 20 clusters. And these 20 clusters also change over time. So this week is a different 20 clusters then three weeks from now. So this, this dynamic ways of working and the customers maturing in, in dealing with Kubernetes operating communities has increased really the pace of adoption of GitOps because it addresses a lot of those challenges that customers are dealing with in this space. >> Yeah, you bring up a really good challenge there. And I think that's worth calling out, this idea of expansion. And I won't say sprawl because it's not a sprawl of cluster. It's more a state provisioning and standing up clusters. And you said they they're changing because the environment has needs and the workloads might have requirements. This makes total sense in a DevOps kind of GitOps way. So I get that and I see that definitely happening. So this brings up the question, if I'm a customer, what I'm worried about is I don't want to have that Hadoop factor where I build a cluster and it takes too long to manage it, or I can't measure it, or understand the data, or have any observability. So I want to have an ease of provisioning and standing up and I want to have consistency that my apps who are using it, don't have to be, you know mangled with or coded with. So, you know, this combination of ease of deploying, ease of integrating, ease of consuming the clusters becomes a service model. Can you share your thoughts on how that gets solved? >> Yeah, absolutely. So that, that's a great point because as, as this is happening, there is also heterogenesis in this, this type of Kubernetes infrastructure window. Like, they're all Kubernetes but this problem also has multiple facets as customers running on multiple public clouds and, and combination of that with their on-premise Kubernetes clusters. And that is, they may as well be OpenShift across all this, all this infrastructure. But the, the problem that GitOps helps its customers advise that they can have the exact same operational model across all these apps and infrastructure, regardless of what kind of application it is. And regardless of where OpenShift is installed or if you're using that combined with a public cloud managed a Kubernetes stats, is the exact same process because you're relying on, on the Gits Workflows, right? And even beyond that, this standard workflow has the benefit of something that many organizations are already familiar with. So if you think about what GitOps operations mean it is essentially what developers have been always using for developing applications. So this standardizes the operations of both application and infrastructure as solvers. >> Listen to me, I got to ask you as the product manager on the whole pipelining in Kubernetes deployments. In your opinion, share your perspective on, real quick, on Kubernetes, where we're at? Because just the accelerated adoption has been phenomenal. We've seen it mature this year at KubeCon. And certainly when KubeCon North America happens, you're going to see more and more end user participation. You're going to see much more end-user use cases. You mentioned clusters are growing. What's the state of Kubernetes from your perspective, from a developer mindset? >> So Kubernetes, I think it has moved from a place that it was seen as only a, a type of infrastructure for Cloud Native applications because of the capability that it provides to a type of infrastructure for any type of application, any type of workload. I think what we have seen over the last two years is, is a shift to expansion of the use cases. And if, if you are, you talked about head open if you are a data scientist, or if you are an AIML type of developer or any type of workload really, see use cases that are coming to the Kubernetes platform as the targets type of infrastructure. So that's really where we see Kubernetes at right now is the really, the preferred infrastructure for any type of workload. And I believe this trend going to to keep continuing to address any of the challenge that exists that prevents maybe part of the, a particular type of workload to address that within the platform and opens that to add to, to developers. Which means for the developers now, once you learn the platform you are really proficient in a, you have this skills for any type of application or any type of infrastructure because they're all standardized, regardless of what type of application or workloads or technology you're specialized in. They're all going to the exact same platform. So it's very standardized type of skills across organizations, different type of teams that they have. >> Awesome, great, thanks for sharing that insight and definition. You're like a walking dictionary today for our CUBE audience. Thank you for all this good stuff. Appreciate it. Final question for you is, what does it mean for developers that are using Jenkins or other cloud-based CI solutions like GitHub Actions? What, what's the impact to them with all this from a working standpoint? 'Cause obviously you've got to make it workable. >> Right, so it's CI/CD also like it's, it's it's great to see like with DevOps adoption, there are many organizations that already have processes in place. They have, they're already using a CI tool or a CD tool. They might be using Jenkins. A lot of organizations really use, use Jenkins even though it comes with challenges and you might be using public cloud services or cloud-based CI tools, like you have Actions, you have pipelines and so on. So we are very well aware of the existing investment that many organizational teams have made. And we make sure that OpenShift as a platform works really well alongside all these different types of CI and CD technology that exists. We want to make sure that for developers starting on OpenShift, they, they have a really solid Cloud Native foundation for CI/CD. They have of strategies included but replaceable type of strategies. So they, they have a supportive platform that is Cloud Native, that gives them capability that matches the type of Cloud Native workloads that they have on the platform but also integrate well with existing tooling that exists around CI/CD. So that they can match and choose if they want to replace a piece of that with an existing investment that they have done, integrated with the rest of the platform. >> Awesome, well, great to have you on. Having the principal product manager is awesome, to talk about the two new announcements here. OpenShift pipe, Pipelines, and OpenShift GitOps. Final, final question, bumper sticker this for the audience. What's the bottom line with OpenShift Pipelines and GitOps? What's the, what's the bottom line benefit for customers? >> It's a, so OpenShift Pipeline and OpenShift GitOps makes it really simple for customers to create Cloud Native Pipelines and GitOps model for delivering application. And also making cluster changes across a large range of clusters that they have, make it really simple to grow from that point to many, many clusters and still manage the complexity of this complex infrastructure that it will be growing into. >> All right, Siamak Sadeghianfar, Senior Principal Product Manager at Red Hat. Here for the KubeCon + CloudNativeCon, Europe. CUBE conversation, thanks for coming on, appreciate it. >> Thanks John, thanks for having me. Okay, CUBE coverage continues. I'm John Farrow with theCUBE. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with coverage of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2021-Virtual, brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and Ecosystem Partners. >> Hey, welcome back everyone to theCUBE's coverage of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2021-Virtual. I'm John Furrier, your host here on theCUBE. We've got Steve Gordon, Director of Product Management, Cloud Platforms at Red Hat. Steve, welcome to theCUBE, good to see you, thanks for coming on. >> Hey John, thanks for having me on, it's great to be back. >> So soon we'll be in real life, I think North America show, this is for the Europe Virtual, I think the North American one might be in person. It's not yet official. We'll hear, but we'll find out, but looking good so far. But thanks for all your collaboration. You guys have been a big part of the CNCF we've been covering on theCUBE, as you know, since the beginning. But, I wanted to get into the Edge conversation that's been going on. And first I want to just get this out there. You guys are sponsoring Edge Day here at KubeCon. I want you to bring that together for us, because this is a big part of what Red Hat's talking about and frankly customers. The Edge is the most explosive growth area. It's got the most complexity, it's crazy. It's got data, it's got everything at the Edge. Everything's happening. How important is Kubernetes to Edge Computing? >> Yeah, it's certainly interesting to be here talking about it now, and having kind of a dedicated Kubernetes Edge Day. I was thinking back earlier, I think it was one of the last in-person KubeCon events I think, if not the last, the San Diego event where there was already kind of a cresting of interest in Edge and kind of topics on the agenda around Edge. And it's just great to see that momentum has continued up to where we are today. And really more and more people not only talking about using Kubernetes for Edge, but actually getting in there and doing it. And I think, when we look at why people are doing that, they're really leaning into some of the things that they saw as strengths of Kubernetes in general, that they're now able to apply to edge computing use cases in terms of what they can actually do in terms of having a common interface to this very powerful platform that you can take to a growing multitude of footprints, be they your public cloud providers, where a lot of people may have started their Kubernetes journey or their own data center, to these edge locations where they're increasingly trying to do processing closer to where they're collecting data, basically. >> You know, when you think about Edge and all the evolution with Cloud Native, what's interesting is Kubernetes is enabling a lot of value. I'd like to get your thoughts. What are you hearing from customers around use cases? I mean, you are doing product management, you've got to document all the features, the wishlist. You have the keys to the kingdom on what's going on over at Red Hat. You know, we're seeing just the amazing connectivity between businesses with hybrid cloud. It's a game changer. Haven't seen this kind of change at this level since the late '80s, early '90s in terms of inflection point impact. This is huge. What are you hearing? >> I think it's really interesting that you use the word connectivity there because one of the first edge computing use cases that I've really been closely involved with and working a lot on, which then grows into the others, is around telecommunications and 5G networking. And the reason we're working with service providers on that adoption of Kubernetes as they build 5G basically as a cloud native platform from the ground up, is they're really leveraging what they've seen with Kubernetes elsewhere and taking that to deliver this connectivity, which is going to be crucial for other use cases. If you think about people whether they're trying to do automotive edge cases, where they're increasingly putting more sensors on the car to make smarter decisions, but also things around the infotainment system using more and more data there as well. If you think about factory edge, all of these use cases build on connectivity as one of the core fundamental things they need. So that's why we've been really zoomed in there with the service providers and our partners, trying to deliver a 5G networking capabilities as fast as we can and the throughput and latency benefits that come with that. >> If you don't mind me asking, I got to just go one step deeper if you don't mind. You mentioned some of these use cases, the connectivity. You know, IoT was the big buzz word, okay IoT. It's an Edge, it's Operational Technology, or it's a dumb endpoint or a node on the network has connectivity. It's got power. It's a purpose built device. It's operating, it's getting surveillance data, whatever the hell it's doing, right. It's got Edge. Now you're bringing in more intelligent, which is an IT kind of thing, state, databases, caching. Is the database too slow? Is it too fast? So again, it brings up more complexity. Can you just talk about how you view that? Because this is what I'm hearing, what do you think? >> Yeah, I agree. I think there's a real spectrum, when we talk about edge computing, both in terms of the footprints and the locations, and the various constraints that each of those imply. And sometimes those strengths can be, as you're talking about as a specially designed board which has a very specific chip on it, has very specific memory and storage constraints or it can be a literal physical constraint in terms of I only have this much space in this location to actually put something, or that space is subject to excess heat or other considerations environmentally. And I think when we look at what we're trying to provide, not just with Kubernetes but also with Linux, is a variety of solutions that can help people no matter where they are along that spectrum of the smallest devices where maybe Red Hat Enterprise Linux, or REL for Edge is suitable to those use cases where maybe there's a little more flexibility in terms of, what are the workloads I might want to run on that in the future? Or how do I want to grow that environment potentially in the future as well? If I want to add nodes, then all of a sudden, the capability that nannies brings can be a more flexible building base for them to start with. >> So with all of these use cases and the changing dynamics and the power dynamics between Operational Technology in IT, which we're kind of riffing on, what should developers take away from that when they're considering their development, whether they just want an app, be app developers, programming the infrastructure or they're tinkering with the underlying, some database work, or if they're under the hood kind of full dev ops? What should developers take into consideration for all these new use cases? >> Yeah, I think one of the key things is that we're trying to minimize the impact to the developer as much as we can. Now of course, with an edge computing use case where you may be designing your application specifically for that board or device, then that's a more challenging proposition. But there's also the case increasingly where that intelligence already exists in the application somewhere, whether it's in the data center or in the cloud, and they're just trying to move it closer to that endpoint, where the actual data is collected. And that's where I think there's a really powerful story in terms of being able to use Kubernetes and OpenShift as that interface that the application developer interacts with but can use that same interface, whether they're running in the cloud maybe for development purposes, but also when they take it to production and it's running somewhere else. >> I got to ask you the AI impact because every conversation I have or everyone I interview that's an expert as a practitioner is usually something along the lines of chief architect of cloud and AI. You're seeing a lot of cloud, SRE, cloud-scale architects meeting and also running the AI piece, especially in industries. So AI as a certain component seems to be resonating from a functional persona standpoint. People who are doing these transformations tend to have cloud and AI responsibility. Is that a fluke or is that just the pattern that's real? >> No, I think that's very real. And I think when you look at AI and machine learning and how it works, it's very data centric in terms of what is the data I'm collecting, sending back to the mothership, maybe in terms of actually training my model. But when I actually go to processing something, I want to make that as close as I can to the actual data collection, so that I can minimize what I'm trying to send back. Particularly, people may not be as cognizant of it, but even today, many times we're talking about sites where that connectivity is actually fairly limited in some of these edge use cases still today. So what you're actually putting over the pipe is something you're still trying to minimize, while trying to advance your business and improve your agility, by making these decisions closer to the edge. >> What's the advantage for Red Hat? Talk about the benefits. What are you guys bringing to the table? Obviously, hybrid cloud is the new shift. Everyone's agreed to that. I mean, pretty much the consensus is public clouds, great, been there, done that. It's out there pumping out as a resource, but now enterprise is goading us to keep stuff on premises, especially when you talk about factories or whatever, on premises, things that they might need, stuff on premise. So it's clear hybrid is happening. Everyone's in agreement. What does Red Hat bring to the table? What's in it for the customer? >> Yeah, I think I would say hybrid is really an evolving at the moment in terms of, I think, Hybrid has kind of gone through this transition where, first of all, it was maybe moving from my data center to public cloud and I'm managing most of those through that transition, and maybe I'm (indistinct) public clouds. And now we're seeing this transition where it's almost that some of that processing is moving back out again closer to the use case of the data. And that's where we really see as an extension of our existing hybrid cloud story, which is simply to say that we're trying to provide a consistent experience and interface for any footprint, any location, basically. And that's where OpenShift is a really powerful platform for doing this. But also, it's got Kubernetes at the heart of it. but it's also worth considering when we look at Kubernetes, is there's this entire Cloud Native ecosystem around it. And that's an increasingly crucial part of why people are making these decisions as well. It's not just Kubernetes itself, but all of those other projects both directly in the CNCF ecosystem itself, but also in that broader CNCF landscape of projects which people can leverage, and even if they don't leverage them today, know they have options out there for when they need to change in the future if they have a new need for their application. >> Yeah, Steve, I totally agree with you. And I want to just get your thoughts on this because I was kind of riffing with Brian Gracely who works at Red Hat on your team. And he was saying that, you know, we were talking about KubeCon + CloudNativeCon as the name of the conference. He's a little bit more CloudNativeCon this year than KubeCon, inferring, implying, and saying that, okay so what about Kubernetes, Kubernetes, Kubernetes? Now it's like, whoa, CloudNative is starting to come to the table, which shows the enablement of Kubernetes. That was our point. The point was, okay, if Kubernetes does its job as creating a lever, some leverage to create value and that's being rendered in CloudNative, and that enterprise is, not the hardcore hyperscalers and/or the early adopters, I call it classic enterprise, are coming in. They're contributing to open source as participants, and they're harvesting the value in creating CloudNative. What's your reaction to that? And can you share your perspective on there's more CloudNative going on than ever before? >> Yeah, I certainly think, you know, we've always thought from the beginning of OpenShift that it was about more than just Linux and Kubernetes and even the container technologies that came before them from the point of view of, to really build a fully operational and useful platform, you need more than just those pieces. That's something that's been core to what we've been trying to build from the beginning. But it's also what you see in the community is people making those decisions as well, as you know, what are these pieces I need, whether it's fairly fundamental infrastructure concerns like logging and monitoring, or whether it's things like trying to enable different applications on top using projects like KubeVert for virtualization, Istio for service mesh and so on. You know, those are all considerations that people have been making gradually. I think what you're seeing now is there's a growing concern in some of these areas within that broad CNCF landscape in terms of, okay, what is the right option for each of these things that I need to build the platform? And certainly, we see our role is to guide customers to those solutions, but it's also great to see that consensus emerging in the communities that we care about, like the CNCF. >> Great stuff. Steve, I got to ask you a final question here. As you guys innovate in the open, I know your roadmaps are all out there in the open. And I got to ask you, product managing is about making decisions about what you what you work on. I know there's a lot of debates. Red Hat has a culture of innovation and engineering, so there's heated arguments, but you guys align at the end of the day. That's kind of the culture. What's top of mind, if someone asks you, "Hey, Steve, bottom line, I'm a Red Hat customer. I'm going full throttle as a hybrid. We're investing. You guys have the cloud platforms, what's in it for me? What's the bottom line?" What do you say? >> Yeah, I think the big thing for us is, you know, I talked about that this is extending the hybrid cloud to the edge. And we're certainly very conscious that we've done a great job at addressing a number of footprints that are core to the way people have done computing today. And now as we move to the edge, that there's a real challenge to go and address more of those footprints. And that's, whether it's delivering OpenShift on a single node of itself, but also working with cloud providers on their edge solutions, as they move further out from the cloud as well. So I think that's really core to the mission is continuing to enable those footprints so that we can be true to that mission of delivering a platform that is consistent across any footprint at any location. And certainly that's core to me. I think the other big trend that we're tracking and really continuing to work on, you know, you talked about AI machine learning, the other other space we really see kind of continuing to develop and certainly relevant in the work with the telecommunications companies I do but also increasingly in the accelerator space where there's really a lot of new and very interesting things happening with hardware and silicon, whether it be kind of FPGAs, EA6, and even the data processing units, lots of things happening in that space that I think are very interesting and going to be key to the next three to five years. >> Yeah, and software needs to run on hardware. Love your tagline there. It sounds like a nice marketing slogan. Any workload, any footprint, any location. (laughs) Hey, DevSecOps, you got to scale it up. So good job. Thank you very much for coming on. Steve Gordon, Director of Product Management, Clout Platforms, Red Hat, Steve, thanks for coming on. >> Thanks, John, really appreciate it. >> Okay, this is theCUBE coverage of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2021 Europe Virtual. I'm John Furrier, your host from theCUBE. Thanks for watching. (serene music)

>> Narrator: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with coverage of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe, 2021 Virtual brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and Ecosystem Partners. >> Hello, welcome back to theCUBE'S coverage of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2021 Virtual, I'm John Furrier your host of theCUBE. We've got two great guests here, always great to talk to the KubeCon co-chairs and we have Stephen Augustus Head of Open Source at Cisco and also the KubeCon co-chair great to have you back. And Jasmine James Manager and Engineering Effectives at Twitter, the KubeCon co-chair, she's new on the job so we're not going to grill her too hard but she's excited to share her perspective, Jasmine, Stephen great to see you. Thanks for coming on theCUBE. >> Thanks for having us. >> Thank you. >> So obviously the co-chairs you guys see everything upfront Jasmine, you're going to learn that this is a really kind of key fun position because you've got to multiple hats you got to wear, you got to put a great program together, you got to entertain and surprise and delight the attendees and also can get the right trends, pick everything right and then keep that harmonious vibe going at CNCF and KubeCon is hard so it's a hard job. So I got to ask you out of the gate, what are the top trends that you guys have selected and are pushing forward this year that we're seeing evolve and unfold here at KubeCon? >> For sure yeah. So I'm excited to see, and I would say that some of the top trends for Cloud Native right now are just changes in the ecosystem, how we think about different use cases for Cloud Native technology. So you'll see lot's of talk about new architectures being introduced into Cloud Native technologies or things like WebAssembly. WebAssembly Wasm used cases and really starting to and again, I think I mentioned this every time, but like what are the customer used cases actually really thinking about how all of these building blocks connect and create a cohesive story. So I think a lot of it is enduring and will always be a part. My favorite thing to see is pretty much always maintainer and user stories, but yeah, but architecture is Wasm and security. Security is a huge focus and it's nice to see it comes to the forefront as we talked about having these like the security day, as well as all of the talk arounds, supply chain security, it has been a really, really, really big event (laughs) I'll say. >> Yeah. Well, great shot from last year we have been we're virtual again, but we're back in, the real world is coming back in the fall, so we hopefully in North America we'll be in person. Jasmine, you're new to the job. Tell us a little about you introduce yourself to the community and tell more about who you are and why you're so excited to be the co-chair with Stephen. >> Yeah, absolutely. So I'm Jasmine James, I've been in the industry for the past five or six years previous at Delta Airlines, now at Twitter, as a part of my job at Delta we did a huge drive on adopting Kubernetes. So a lot of those experiences, I was very, very blessed to be a part of in making the adoption and really the cultural shift, easy for developers during my time there. I'm really excited to experience like Cloud Native from the co-chair perspective because historically I've been like on the consumer side going to talk, taking all those best practices, stealing everything I could into bring it back into my job. So make everyone's life easier. So it's really, really great to see all of the fantastic ideas that are being presented, all of the growth and maturity within the Cloud Native world. Similar to Stephen, I'm super excited to hear about the security stuff, especially as it relates to making it easy for developers to shift left on security versus it being such an afterthought and making it something that you don't really have to think about. Developer experience is huge for me which is why I took the job at Twitter six months ago, so I'm really excited to see what I can learn from the other co-chairs and to bring it back to my day-to-day. >> Yeah, Twitter's been very active in open source. Everyone knows that and it's a great chance to see you land there. One of the interesting trends is this year I'll see besides security is GitOps but the one that I think is relevant to your background so fresh is the end user contributions and involvement has been really exploding on the scene. It's always been there. We've covered, Envoy with Lyft but now enterprise is now mainstream enterprises have been kind of going to the open source well and bringing those goodies back to their camps and building out and bringing it back. So you starting to see that flywheel developing you've been on that side now here. Talk about that dynamic and how real that is an important and share some perspective of what's really going on around this explosion around more end user contribution, more end user involvement. >> Absolutely. So I really think that a lot of industry like players are starting to see the importance of contributing back to open source because historically we've done a lot of taking, utilizing these different components to drive the business logic and not really making an investment in the product itself. So it's really, really great to see large companies invest in open source, even have whole teams dedicated to open source and how it's consumed internally. So I really think it's going to be a big win for the companies and for the open source community because I really am a big believer in like giving back and making sure that you should give back as much as you're taking and by making it easy for companies to do the right thing and then even highlighting it as a part of CNCF, it'll be really, really great, just a drive for a great environment for everyone. So really excited to see that. >> That's really good. She has been awesome stuff. Great, great insight. Stephen, I just have you piggyback off that and comment on companies enterprises that want to get more involved with the Cloud Native community from their respective experiences, what's the playbook, is there a new on-ramps? Is there new things? Is there a best practice? What's your view? I mean, obviously everyone's growing and changing. You look at IT has changed. I mean, IT is evolving completely to CloudOps, SRE get ops day two operations. It's pretty much standard now but they need to learn and change. What's your take on this? >> Yeah, so I think that to Jasmine's point and I'm not sure how much we've discussed my background in the past, but I actually came from the corporate IT background, did Desktop Sr, Desktop helped us support all of that stuff up into operations, DevOps, SRE, production engineering. I was an SRE at a startup who used core West technologies and started using Kubernetes back when Kubernetes is that one, two, I think. And that was my first journey into Cloud Native. And I became core less is like only customer to employee convert, right? So I'm very much big on that end user story and figuring out how to get people involved because that was my story as well. So I think that, some of the work that we do or a lot of the work that we do in contributor strategy, the SIG CNCF St. Contributor Strategy is all around thinking through how to bring on new contributors to these various Cloud Native projects, Right? So we've had chats with container D and linker D and a bunch of other folks across the ecosystem, as well as the kind of that maintainer circle sessions that we hold which are kind of like a private, not recorded. So maintainers can kind of get raw and talk about what they're feeling, whether it be around bolstering contributions or whether it'd be like managing burnout, right? Or thinking about how you talk through the values and the principles for your projects. So I think that, part of that story is building for multiple use cases, right? You take Kubernetes for example, right? So Ameritas chair for sync PM over in Kubernetes, one of the sub project owners for the enhancements sub project which involves basically like figuring out how we intake new enhancements to the community but as well as like what the end user cases are all of the use cases for that, right? How do we make it easy to use the technology and how we make it more effective for people to have conversations about how they use technology, right? So I think it's kind of a continuing story and it's delightful to see all of the people getting involved in a SIG Contributor Strategy, because it means that they care about all of the folks that are coming into their projects and making it a more welcoming and easier to contribute place so. >> Yeah. That's great stuff. And one of the things you mentioned about IT in your background and the scale change from IT and just the operational change over is interesting. I was just talking with a friend and we were talking about, get Op and, SRAs and how, in colleges is that an engineering track or is it computer science and it's kind of a hybrid, right? So you're seeing essentially this new operational model at scale that's CloudOps. So you've got hybrid, you've got on-premise, you've got Cloud Native and now soon to be multi-cloud so new things come into play architecture, coding, and programmability. All these things are like projects now in CNCF. And that's a lot of vendors and contributors but as a company, the IT functions is changing fast. So that's going to require more training and more involvement and yet open source is filling the void if you look at some of the successes out there, it's interesting. Can you comment on the companies that are out there saying, "Hey, I know my IT department is going to be turning into essentially SRE operations or CloudOps at scale. How do they get there? How could they work with KubeCon and what's the key playbook? How would you answer that? >> Yeah, so I would say, first off the place to go is the one-on-one track. We specifically craft that one-on-one track to make sure that people who are new to Cloud Native get a very cohesive story around what they're trying to get into, right? At any one time. So head to the one-on-one track, please add to the one-on-one track, hang out, definitely check out all of the keynotes that again, the keynotes, we put a lot of work into making sure these keynotes tell a very nice story about all of the technology and the amount of work that our presenters put into it as well is phenomenal. It's top notch. It's top notch every time. So those will always be my suggestions. Actually go to the keynotes and definitely check out the one-on-one track. >> Awesome. Jasmine, I got to get your take on this now that you're on the KubeCon and you're co-chairing with Stephen, what's your story to the folks that are in the end user side out there that were in your old position that you were at Delta doing some great Kubernetes work but now it's going beyond Kubernetes. I was just talking with another participant in the KubeCon ecosystem is saying, "It's not just Kubernetes anymore. There's other systems that we're going to deploy our real-time metrics on and whatnot". So what's the story? What's the update? What do you see on the inside now now that you're on board and you're at a Hyperscale at Twitter, what's your advice? What's your commentary to your old friends and the end user world? >> Yeah. It's not an easy task. I think that was, you had mentioned about starting with the one-on-one is like super key. Like that's where you should start. There's so many great stories out there in previous KubeCon that have been told. I was listening to those stories and the great thing about our community is that it's authentic, right? We're telling like all of the ways we tripped up so we can prevent you from doing this same thing and having an easier path, which is really awesome. Another thing I would say is do not underestimate the cultural shift, right? There are so many tools and technologies out there, but there's also a cultural transformation that has to happen. You're shifting from, traditional IT roles to a really holistic like so many different things are changing about the way infrastructure was interacted with the way developers are developing. So don't underestimate the cultural shift and make sure you're bringing everyone to the party because there's a lot of perspectives from the development side that needs to be considered before you make the shift initially So that way you can make sure you're approaching the problem in the right way. So those would be my recommendation. >> Also, speaking of cultural shifts, Stephen I know this is a big passion of yours is diversity in the ecosystem. I think with COVID we've seen probably in the past two years a major cultural shifts on the personnel involved, the people participating, still a lot more work to get done. Where are we on diversity in the ecosystem? How would you rate the progress and the overall achievements? >> I would say doing better, but never stop what has happened in COVID I think, if you look across companies, if you look across the opportunities that have opened up for people in general, there have been plenty of doors that have shut, right? And doors that have really made the assumption that you need to be physical are in person to do good work. And I think that the Cloud Native ecosystem the work that the LF and CNCF do, and really the way that we interact in projects has kind of pushed towards this async first, this remote first work culture, right? So you see it in these large corporations that have had to change the travel policies because of COVID and really for someone who's coming off being like a field engineer and solutions architect, right? The bread and butter is hopping on and off a plane, shaking hands, going to dinner, doing the song and dance, right? With customers. And for that model to functionally shift, right? Having conversations in different ways, right? And yeah, sometimes it's a lot of Zoom calls, right? Zoom calls, webinars, all of these things but I think some of what has happened is, you take the release team, for example, the Kubernetes release team. This is our first cycle with Dave Vellante who's our 121 released team lead is based in India, right? And that's the first time that we've had APAC region release team lead and what that forced us to do, we were already working on it. But what that forced us to do is really focused on asynchronous communication. How can we get things done without having to have people in the room? And we were like, "With Dave Vellante in here, it either works or it doesn't like, we're either going to prove that what we've put in place works for asynchronous communication or it doesn't." And then, given that a project of this scale can operate just fine, right? Right just fine delivering a release with people all across the globe. It proves that we have a lot of flexibility in the way that we offer opportunities, both on the open source side, as well as on the company side. >> Yeah. And I got to say KubeCon has always been global from day one. I was in Shanghai and I was in hung, Jo, visiting Ali Baba. And who do I see in the lobby? The CNCF crew. And I'm like, "What are you guys doing here?" "Oh, we're here talking to the cloud with Alibaba." So global is huge. You guys have nailed that. So congratulations and keep that going. Jasmine, your perspective is women in tech. I mean, you're seeing more and more focus and some great doors opening. It's still not enough. We've been covering this for a long time. Still the numbers are down, but we had a great conference recently at Stanford Women in Data Science amazing conference, a lot of power players coming in, women in tech is evolving. What's your take on this still a lot more work to done. You're an inspiration. Share your story. >> Yeah. We have a long way to go. There's no question about it. I do think that there's a lot of great organizations CNCF being one of them, really doing a great job at sharing, networking opportunities, encouraging other women to contribute to open source and letting that be sort of the gateway into a tech career. My journey is starting as a systems engineer at Delta, working my way into leadership, somehow I'm not sure I ended up there but really sort of shifting and being able to lift other women up has been like so fortunate to be able to do that. Women who code being a mentor, things of that nature has been a great opportunity, but I do feel like the open source community has a long way go to be a more welcoming place for women contributors, things like code of conduct, that being very prevalent making sure that it's not daunting and scary, going into GitHub and starting to create a PR for out of fear of what someone might say about your contributions instead of it being sort of an educational experience. So I think there's a lot of opportunities but there's a lot of programs, networking opportunities out there, especially everyone being remote now that have presented themselves. So I'm very hopeful. And the CNCF, like I said is doing a great job at highlighting these women contributors that are making changes to CNCF projects in really making it something that is celebrated which is really great. >> Yeah. You know that I love Stephen and we thought this last time and the Clubhouse app has come online since we were last talking and it's all audio. So there's a lot of ideas and it's all open. So with a synchronous first you have more access but still context matters. So the language, so there's still more opportunities potentially to offend or get it right so this is now becoming a new cultural shift. You brought this up last time we chatted around the language, language is important. So I think this is something that we're keeping an eye on and trying to keep open dialogue around, "Hey it matters what you say, asynchronously or in texts." We all know that text moment where someone said, "I didn't really mean that." But it was offensive or- >> It's like you said it. (laughs) >> (murmurs) you passionate about this here. This is super important how we work. >> Yeah. So you mentioned Clubhouse and it's something that I don't like. (laughs) So no offense to anyone who is behind creating new technologies for sure. But I think that Clubhouse from, if you take platforms like that, let's generalize, you take platforms like that and you think about the unintentional exclusion that those platforms involve, right? If you think about folks with disabilities who are not necessarily able to hear a conversation, right? Or you don't provide opportunities to like caption your conversations, right? That either intentionally or unintentionally excludes a group of folks, right? So I've seen Cloud Native, I've seen Cloud Native things happen on a Clubhouse, on a Twitter Spaces. I won't personally be involved in them until I know that it's a platform that is not exclusive. So I think that it's great that we're having new opportunities to engage with folks that are not necessarily, you've got people prefer the Slack and discord vibe, you've got people who prefer the text over phone calls, so to speak thing, right? You've got people who prefer phone calls. So maybe like, maybe Clubhouse, Twitter Spaces, insert new, I guess Disco is doing a thing too- >> They call it stages. Disco has stages, which is- >> Stages. They have stages. Okay. All right. So insert, Clubhouse clone here and- >> Kube House. We've got a Kube House come on in. >> Kube House. Kube House. >> Trivial (murmurs). >> So we've got great ways to engage there for people who prefer that type of engagement and something that is explicitly different from the I'm on a Zoom call all day kind of vibe enjoy yourselves, try to make it as engaging as possible, just realize what you may unintentionally be doing by creating a community that not everyone can be a part of. >> Yeah. Technical consequences. I mean, this is key language matters to how you get involved and how you support it. I mean, the accessibility piece, I never thought about that. If you can't listen, I mean, you can't there's no content there. >> Yeah. Yeah. And that's a huge part of the Cloud Native community, right? Thinking through accessibility, internationalization, localization, to make sure that our contributions are actually accessible, right? To folks who want to get involved and not just prioritizing, let's say the U.S. or our English speaking part of the world so. >> Awesome. Jasmine, what's your take? What can we do better in the world to make the diversity and inclusion not a conversation because when it's not a conversation, then it's solved. I mean, ultimately it's got a lot more work to do but you can't be exclusive. You got to be diverse more and more output happens. What's your take on this? >> Yeah. I feel like they'll always be work to do in this space because there's so many groups of people, right? That we have to take an account for. I think that thinking through inclusion in the onset of whatever you're doing is the best way to get ahead of it. There's so many different components of it and you want to make sure that you're making a space for everyone. I also think that making sure that you have a pipeline of a network of people that represent a good subset of the world is going to be very key for shaping any program or any sort of project that anyone does in the future. But I do think it's something that we have to consistently keep at the forefront of our mind always consider. It's great that it's in so many conversations right now. It really makes me happy especially being a mom with an eight year old girl who's into computer science as well. That there'll be better opportunities and hopefully more prevalent opportunities and representation for her by the time she grows up. So really, really great. >> Get her coding early, as I always say. Jasmine great to have you and Stephen as well. Good to see you. Final question. What do you hope people walk away with this year from KubeCon? What's the final kind of objective? Jasmine, we'll start with you. >> Wow. Final objective. I think that I would want people to walk away with a sense of community. I feel like the KubeCon CNCF world is a great place to get knowledge, but also an established sense of community not stopping at just the conference and taking part of the community, giving back, contributing would be a great thing for people to walk away with. >> Awesome. Stephen? >> I'm all about community as well. So I think that one of the fun things that we've been doing, is just engaging in different ways than we have normally across the kind of the KubeCon boundaries, right? So you take CNCF Twitch, you take some of the things that I can't mention yet, but are coming out you should see around and pose KubeCon week, the way that we're engaging with people is changing and it's needed to change because of how the world is right now. So I hope that to reinforce the community point, my favorite part of any conference is the hallway track. And I think I've mentioned this last time and we're trying our best. We're trying our best to create it. We've had lots of great feedback about, whether it be people playing among us on CNCF Twitch or hanging out on Slack silly early hours, just chatting it up. And are kind of like crafted hallway track. So I think that engage, don't be afraid to say hello. I know that it's new and scary sometimes and trust me, we've literally all been here. It's going to be okay, come in, have some fun, we're all pretty friendly. We're all pretty friendly and we know and understand that the only way to make this community survive and thrive is to bring on new contributors, is to get new perspectives and continue building awesome technology. So don't be afraid. >> I love it. You guys have a global diverse and knowledgeable and open community. Congratulations. Jasmine James, Stephen Augustus, co-chairs for KubeCon here on theCUBE breaking it down, I'm John Furrier for your host, thanks for watching. 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>>mhm Yes. >>Welcome back to the Cube coverage of Red Hat summit 21 2021. I'm john for host of the Cubans virtual this year as we start preparing to come out of Covid a lot of great conversations here happening around technology. This is the emerging technology with Red hat segment. We've got three great guests steve watt manager, distinguished engineer at Red Hat hurl saying senior software engineer Red Hat and luke Hines, who's the senior software engineer as well. We got the engineering team steve, you're the the team leader, emerging tech within red hat. Always something to talk about. You guys have great tech chops that's well known in the industry and I'll see now part of IBM you've got a deep bench um what's your, how do you view emerging tech um how do you apply it? How do you prioritize, give us a quick overview of the emerging tech scene at Redhead? >>Yeah, sure. It's quite a conflated term. The way we define emerging technologies is that it's a technology that's typically 18 months plus out from commercialization and this can sometimes go six months either way. Another thing about it is it's typically not something on any of our product roadmaps within the portfolio. So in some sense, it's often a bit of a surprise that we have to react to. >>So no real agenda. And I mean you have some business unit kind of probably uh but you have to have first principles within red hat, but for this you're looking at kind of the moon shot, so to speak, the big game changing shifts. Quantum, you know, you got now supply chain from everything from new economics, new technology because that kind of getting it right. >>Yeah, I think we we definitely use a couple of different techniques to prioritize and filter what we're doing. And the first is something will pop up and it will be like, is it in our addressable market? So our addressable market is that we're a platform software company that builds enterprise software and so, you know, it's got to be sort of fit into that is a great example if somebody came up came to us with an idea for like a drone command center, which is a military application, it is an emerging technology, but it's something that we would pass on. >>Yeah, I mean I didn't make sense, but he also, what's interesting is that you guys have an open source D N A. So it's you have also a huge commercial impact and again, open sources of one of the 4th, 5th generation of awesomeness. So, you know, the good news is open source is well proven. But as you start getting into this more disruption, you've got the confluence of, you know, core cloud, cloud Native, industrial and IOT edge and data. All this is interesting, right. This is where the action is. How do you guys bring that open source community participation? You got more stakeholders emerging there before the break down, how that you guys manage all that complexity? >>Yeah, sure. So I think that the way I would start is that, you know, we like to act on good ideas, but I don't think good ideas come from any one place. And so we typically organize our teams around sort of horizontal technology sectors. So you've got, you know, luke who's heading up security, but I have an edge team, cloud networking team, a cloud storage team. Cloud application platforms team. So we've got these sort of different areas that we sort of attack work and opportunities, but you know, the good ideas can come from a variety of different places. So we try and leverage co creation with our customers and our partners. So as a good example of something we had to react to a few years ago, it was K Native right? So the sort of a new way of doing service um and eventing on top of kubernetes that was originated from google. Whereas if you look at Quantum right, ibms, the actual driver on quantum science and uh that originated from IBM were parole. We'll talk about exactly how we chose to respond to that. Some things are originated organically within the team. So uh luke talking about six law is a great example of that, but we do have a we sort of use the addressable market as a way to sort of focus what we're doing and then we try and land it within our different emerging technologies teams to go tackle it. Now. You asked about open source communities, which are quite interesting. Um so typically when you look at an open source project, it's it's there to tackle a particular problem or opportunity. Sometimes what you actually need commercial vendors to do is when there's a problem or opportunity that's not tackled by anyone open source project, we have to put them together to create a solution to go tackle that thing. That's also what we do. And so we sort of create this bridge between red hat and our customers and multiple different open source projects. And this is something we have to do because sometimes just that one open source project doesn't really care that much about that particular problem. They're motivated elsewhere. And so we sort of create that bridge. >>We got two great uh cohorts here and colleagues parole on the on the Quantum side and you got luke on the security side. Pro I'll start with you. Quantum is also a huge mentioned IBM great leadership there. Um Quantum on open shift. I mean come on. Just that's not coming together for me in my mind, it's not the first thing I think of. But it really that sounds compelling. Take us through, you know, um how this changes the computing landscape because heterogeneous systems is what we want and that's the world we live in. But now with distributed systems and all kinds of new computing modules out there, how does this makes sense? Take us through this? >>Um yeah john's but before I think I want to explain something which is called Quantum supremacy because it plays very important role in the road map that's been working on. So uh content computers, they are evolving and they have been around. But right now you see that they are going to be the next thing. And we define quantum supremacy as let's say you have any program that you run or any problems that you solve on a classical computer. Quantum computer would be giving you the results faster. So that is uh, that is how we define content supremacy when the same workload are doing better on content computer than they do in a classical computer. So the whole the whole drive is all the applications are all the companies, they're trying to find avenues where Quantum supremacy are going to change how they solve problems or how they run their applications. And even though quantum computers they are there. But uh, it is not as easily accessible for everyone to consume because it's it's a very new area that's being formed. So what, what we were thinking, how we can provide a mechanism that you can you don't connect this deal was you have a classical world, you have a country world and that's where a lot of thought process been. And we said okay, so with open shift we have the best of the classical components. You can take open shift, you can develop, deploy around your application in a country raised platform. What about you provide a mechanism that the world clothes that are running on open shift. They are also consuming quantum resources or they are able to run the competition and content computers take the results and integrate them in their normal classical work clothes. So that is the whole uh that was the whole inception that we have and that's what brought us here. So we took an operator based approach and what we are trying to do is establish the best practices that you can have these heterogeneous applications that can have classical components. Talking to our interacting the results are exchanging data with the quantum components. >>So I gotta ask with the rise of containers now, kubernetes at the center of the cloud native value proposition, what work clothes do you see benefiting from the quantum systems the most? Is there uh you guys have any visibility on some of those workloads? >>Uh So again, it's it's a very new, it's very it's really very early in the time and uh we talk with our customers and every customers, they are trying to identify themselves first where uh these contacts supremacy will be playing the role. What we are trying to do is when they reach their we should have a solution that they that they could uh use the existing in front that they have on open shift and use it to consume the content computers that may or may not be uh, inside their own uh, cloud. >>Well I want to come back and ask you some of the impact on the landscape. I want to get the look real quick because you know, I think security quantum break security, potentially some people have been saying, but you guys are also looking at a bunch of projects around supply chain, which is a huge issue when it comes to the landscape, whether its components on a machine in space to actually handling, you know, data on a corporate database. You guys have sig store. What's this about? >>Sure. Yes. So sick store a good way to frame six store is to think of let's encrypt and what let's encrypt did for website encryption is what we plan to do for software signing and transparency. So six Door itself is an umbrella organization that contains various different open source projects that are developed by the Six door community. Now, six door will be brought forth as a public good nonprofit service. So again, we're very much basing this on the successful model of let's Encrypt Six door will will enable developers to sign software artifacts, building materials, containers, binaries, all of these different artifacts that are part of the software supply chain. These can be signed with six door and then these signing events are recorded into a technology that we call a transparency log, which means that anybody can monitor signing events and a transparency log has this nature of being read only and immutable. It's very similar to a Blockchain allows you to have cryptographic proof auditing of our software supply chain and we've made six stores so that it's easy to adopt because traditional cryptographic signing tools are a challenge for a lot of developers to implement in their open source projects. They have to think about how to store the private keys. Do they need specialist hardware? If they were to lose a key then cleaning up afterwards the blast radius. So the key compromise can be incredibly difficult. So six doors role and purpose essentially is to make signing easy easy to adopt my projects. And then they have the protections around there being a public transparency law that could be monitored. >>See this is all about open. Being more open. Makes it more secure. Is the >>thief? Very much yes. Yes. It's that security principle of the more eyes on the code the better. >>So let me just back up, is this an open, you said it's gonna be a nonprofit? >>That's correct. Yes. Yes. So >>all of the code is developed by the community. It's all open source. anybody can look at this code. And then we plan alongside the Linux Foundation to launch a public good service. So this will make it available for anybody to use if your nonprofit free to use service. >>So luke maybe steve if you can way into on this. I mean, this goes back. If you look back at some of the early cloud days, people were really trashing cloud as there's no security. And cloud turns out it's a more security now with cloud uh, given the complexity and scale of it, does that apply the same here? Because I feel this is a similar kind of concept where it's open, but yet the more open it is, the more secure it is. And then and then might have to be a better fit for saying I. T. Security solution because right now everyone is scrambling on the I. T. Side. Um whether it's zero Trust or Endpoint Protection, everyone's kind of trying everything in sight. This is kind of changing the paradigm a little bit on software security. Could you comment on how you see this playing out in traditional enterprises? Because if this plays out like the cloud, open winds, >>so luke, why don't you take that? And then I'll follow up with another lens on it which is the operate first piece. >>Sure. Yes. So I think in a lot of ways this has to be open this technology because this way we have we have transparency. The code can be audited openly. Okay. Our operational procedures can be audit openly and the community can help to develop not only are code but our operational mechanisms so we look to use technology such as cuba netease, open ship operators and so forth. Uh Six store itself runs completely in a cloud. It is it is cloud native. Okay, so it's very much in the paradigm of cloud and yeah, essentially security, always it operates better when it's open, you know, I found that from looking at all aspects of security over the years that I've worked in this realm. >>Okay, so just just to add to that some some other context around Six Law, that's interesting, which is, you know, software secure supply chain, Sixth floor is a solution to help build more secure software secure supply chains, more secure software supply chain. And um so um there's there's a growing community around that and there's an ecosystem of sort of cloud native kubernetes centric approaches for building more secure software. I think we all caught the solar winds attack. It's sort of enterprise software industry is responding sort of as a whole to go and close out as many of those gaps as possible, reduce the attack surface. So that's one aspect about why 6th was so interesting. Another thing is how we're going about it. So we talked about um you mentioned some of the things that people like about open source, which is one is transparency, so sunlight is the best disinfectant, right? Everybody can see the code, we can kind of make it more secure. Um and then the other is agency where basically if you're waiting on a vendor to go do something, um if it's proprietary software, you you really don't have much agency to get that vendor to go do that thing. Where is the open source? If you don't, if you're tired of waiting around, you can just submit the patch. So, um what we've seen with package software is with open source, we've had all this transparency and agency, but we've lost it with software as a service, right? Where vendors or cloud service providers are taking package software and then they're making it available as a service but that operationalize ng that software that is proprietary and it doesn't get contributed back. And so what Lukes building here as long along with our partners down, Lawrence from google, very active contributor in it. Um, the, is the operational piece to actually run sixth or as a public service is part of the open source project so people can then go and take sixth or maybe run it as a smaller internal service. Maybe they discover a bug, they can fix that bug contributed back to the operational izing piece as well as the traditional package software to basically make it a much more robust and open service. So you bring that transparency and the agency back to the SAS model as well. >>Look if you don't mind before, before uh and this segment proportion of it. The importance of immune ability is huge in the world of data. Can you share more on that? Because you're seeing that as a key part of the Blockchain for instance, having this ability to have immune ability. Because you know, people worry about, you know, how things progress in this distributed world. You know, whether from a hacking standpoint or tracking changes, Mutability becomes super important and how it's going to be preserved in this uh new six doorway. >>Oh yeah, so um mutability essentially means cannot be changed. So the structure of something is set. If it is anyway tampered or changed, then it breaks the cryptographic structure that we have of our public transparency service. So this way anybody can effectively recreate the cryptographic structure that we have of this public transparency service. So this mutability provides trust that there is non repudiation of the data that you're getting. This data is data that you can trust because it's built upon a cryptographic foundation. So it has very much similar parallels to Blockchain. You can trust Blockchain because of the immutable nature of it. And there is some consensus as well. Anybody can effectively download the Blockchain and run it themselves and compute that the integrity of that system can be trusted because of this immutable nature. So that's why we made this an inherent part of Six door is so that anybody can publicly audit these events and data sets to establish that there tamper free. >>That is a huge point. I think one of the things beyond just the security aspect of being hacked and protecting assets um trust is a huge part of our society now, not just on data but everything, anything that's reputable, whether it's videos like this being deep faked or you know, or news or any information, all this ties to security again, fundamentally and amazing concepts. Um I really want to keep an eye on this great work. Um Pearl, I gotta get back to you on Quantum because again, you can't, I mean people love Quantum. It's just it feels like so sci fi and it's like almost right here, right, so close and it's happening. Um And then people get always, what does that mean for security? We go back to look and ask them well quantum, you know, crypto But before we get started I wanted, I'm curious about how that's gonna play out from the project because is it going to be more part of like a C. N. C. F. How do you bring the open source vibe to Quantum? >>Uh so that's a very good question because that was a plan, the whole work that we are going to do related to operators to enable Quantum is managed by the open source community and that project lies in the casket. So casket has their own open source community and all the modification by the way, I should first tell you what excuse did so cute skin is the dedicate that you use to develop circuits that are run on IBM or Honeywell back in. So there are certain Quantum computers back and that support uh, circuits that are created using uh Houston S ticket, which is an open source as well. So there is already a community around this which is the casket. Open source community and we have pushed the code and all the maintenance is taken care of by that community. Do answer your question about if we are going to integrate it with C and C. F. That is not in the picture right now. We are, it has a place in its own community and it is also very niche to people who are working on the Quantum. So right now you have like uh the contributors who who are from IBM as well as other uh communities that are specific specifically working on content. So right now I don't think so, we have the map to integrated the C. N. C. F. But open source is the way to go and we are on that tragic Torri >>you know, we joke here the cube that a cubit is coming around the corner can can help but we've that in you know different with a C. But um look, I want to ask you one of the things that while you're here your security guru. I wanted to ask you about Quantum because a lot of people are scared that Quantum is gonna crack all the keys on on encryption with his power and more hacking. You're just comment on that. What's your what's your reaction to >>that? Yes that's an incredibly good question. This will occur. Okay. And I think it's really about preparation more than anything now. One of the things that we there's a principle that we have within the security world when it comes to coding and designing of software and this aspect of future Cryptography being broken. As we've seen with the likes of MD five and Sha one and so forth. So we call this algorithm agility. So this means that when you write your code and you design your systems you make them conducive to being able to easily swap and pivot the algorithms that use. So the encryption algorithms that you have within your code, you do not become too fixed to those. So that if as computing gets more powerful and the current sets of algorithms are shown to have inherent security weaknesses, you can easily migrate and pivot to a stronger algorithms. So that's imperative. Lee is that when you build code, you practice this principle of algorithm agility so that when shot 256 or shot 5 12 becomes the shar one. You can swap out your systems. You can change the code in a very least disruptive way to allow you to address that floor within your within your code in your software projects. >>You know, luke. This is mind bender right there. Because you start thinking about what this means is when you think about algorithmic agility, you start thinking okay software countermeasures automation. You start thinking about these kinds of new trends where you need to have that kind of signature capability. You mentioned with this this project you're mentioning. So the ability to actually who signs off on these, this comes back down to the paradigm that you guys are talking about here. >>Yes, very much so. There's another analogy from the security world, they call it turtles all the way down, which is effectively you always have to get to the point that a human or a computer establishes that first point of trust to sign something off. And so so it is it's a it's a world that is ever increasing in complexity. So the best that you can do is to be prepared to be as open as you can to make that pivot as and when you need to. >>Pretty impressive, great insight steve. We can talk for hours on this panel, emerging tech with red hat. Just give us a quick summary of what's going on. Obviously you've got a serious brain trust going on over there. Real world impact. You talk about the future of trust, future of software, future of computing, all kind of going on real time right now. This is not so much R and D as it is the front range of tech. Give us a quick overview of >>Yeah, sure, yeah, sure. The first thing I would tell everyone is go check out next that red hat dot com, that's got all of our different projects, who to contact if you're interested in learning more about different areas that we're working on. And it also lists out the different areas that we're working on, but just as an overview. So we're working on software defined storage, cloud storage. Sage. Well, the creator of Cf is the person that leads that group. We've got a team focused on edge computing. They're doing some really cool projects around um very lightweight operating systems that and kubernetes, you know, open shift based deployments that can run on, you know, devices that you screw into the sheet rock, you know, for that's that's really interesting. Um We have a cloud networking team that's looking at over yin and just intersection of E B P F and networking and kubernetes. Um and then uh you know, we've got an application platforms team that's looking at Quantum, but also sort of how to advance kubernetes itself. So that's that's the team where you got the persistent volume framework from in kubernetes and that added block storage and object storage to kubernetes. So there's a lot of really exciting things going on. Our charter is to inform red hats long term technology strategy. We work the way my personal philosophy about how we do that is that Red hat has product engineering focuses on their product roadmap, which is by nature, you know, the 6 to 9 months. And then the longer term strategy is set by both of us. And it's just that they're not focused on it. We're focused on it and we spend a lot of time doing disambiguate nation of the future and that's kind of what we do. We love doing it. I get to work with all these really super smart people. It's a fun job. >>Well, great insights is super exciting, emerging tack within red hat. I'll see the industry. You guys are agile, your open source and now more than ever open sources, uh, product Ization of open source is happening at such an accelerated rate steve. Thanks for coming on parole. Thanks for coming on luke. Great insight all around. Thanks for sharing. Uh, the content here. Thank you. >>Our pleasure. >>Thank you. >>Okay. We were more, more redhead coverage after this. This video. Obviously, emerging tech is huge. Watch some of the game changing action here at Redhead Summit. I'm john ferrier. Thanks for watching. Yeah.

>>mhm Yes, Welcome back to the cubes coverage of red hat summit 2021 virtual, which we were in person this year but we're still remote. We still got the Covid coming around the corner. Soon to be in post. Covid got a great guest here, Clayton Coleman architect that red hat cuba love and I've been on many times expanded role again this year. More cloud, more cloud action. Great, great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >>It's a pleasure >>to be here. So great to see you were just riffing before we came on camera about distributed computing uh and the future of the internet, how it's all evolving, how much fun it is, how it's all changing still. The game is still the same, all that good stuff. But here at Red had some and we're gonna get into that, but I want to just get into the hard news and the real big, big opportunities here you're announcing with red hat new managed cloud services portfolio, take us through that. >>Sure. We're continuing to evolve our open shift managed offerings which has grown now to include um the redhead open shift service on amazon to complement our as your redhead open shift service. Um that means that we have um along with our partnership on IBM cloud and open ship dedicated on both a W S and G C P. We now have um managed open shift on all of the major clouds. And along with that we are bringing in and introducing the first, I think really the first step what we see as uh huh growing and involving the hybrid cloud ecosystem on top of open shift and there's many different ways to slice that, but it's about bringing capabilities on top of open shift in multiple environments and multiple clouds in ways that make developers and operation teams more productive because at the heart of it, that's our goal for open shift. And the broader, open source ecosystem is do what makes all of us safer, more, uh, more productive and able to deliver business value? >>Yeah. And that's a great steak you guys put in the ground. Um, and that's great messaging, great marketing, great value proposition. I want to dig into a little bit with you. I mean, you guys have, I think the only native offering on all the clouds out there that I know of, is that true? I mean, you guys have, it's not just, you know, you support AWS as your and I B M and G C P, but native offerings. >>We do not have a native offering on GCPD offered the same service. And this is actually interesting as we've evolved our approach. You know, everyone, when we talk about hybrid, Hybrid is, um, you know, dealing with the realities of the computing world, We live in, um, working with each of the major clouds, trying to deliver the best immigration possible in a way that drives that consistency across those environments. And so actually are open shift dedicated on AWS service gave us the inspiration a lot of the basic foundations for what became the integrated Native service. And we've worked with amazon very closely to make sure that that does the right thing for customers who have chosen amazon. And likewise, we're trying to continue to deliver the best experience, the best operational reliability that we can so that the choice of where you run your cloud, um, where you run your applications, um, matches the decisions you've already made and where your future investments are gonna be. So we want to be where customers are, but we also want to give you that consistency. That has been a hallmark of um of open shift since the beginning. >>Yeah. And thanks for clarifying, I appreciate that because the manage serves on GCB rest or native. Um let me ask about the application services because Jeff Barr from AWS posted a few weeks ago amazon celebrated their 15th birthday. They're still teenagers uh relatively speaking. But one comment he made that he that was interesting to me. And this applies kind of this cloud native megatrend happening is he says the A. P. I. S are basically the same and this brings up the hybrid environment. You guys are always been into the api side of the management with the cloud services and supporting all that. As you guys look at this ecosystem in open source. How is the role of A PS and these integrations? Because without solid integration all these services could break down and certainly the open source, more and more people are coding. So take me through how you guys look at these applications services because many people are predicting more service is going to be on boarding faster than ever before. >>It's interesting. So um for us working across multiple cloud environments, there are many similarities in those mps, but for every similarity there is a difference and those differences are actually what dr costs and drive complexity when you're integrating. Um and I think a lot of the role of this is, you know, the irresponsible to talk about the role of an individual company in the computing ecosystem moving to cloud native because as many of these capabilities are unlocked by large cloud providers and transformations in the kinds of software that we run at scale. You know, everybody is a participant in that. But then you look at the broad swath of developer and operator ecosystem and it's the communities of people who paper over those differences, who write run books and build um you know, the policies and who build the experience and the automation. Um not just in individual products or an individual clouds, but across the open source ecosystem. Whether it's technologies like answerable or Terror form, whether it's best practices websites around running kubernetes, um every every part of the community is really involved in driving up uh driving consistency, um driving predictability and driving reliability and what we try to do is actually work within those constraints um to take the ecosystem and to push it a little bit further. So the A. P. I. S. May be similar, but over time those differences can trip you up. And a lot of what I think we talked about where the industry is going, where where we want to be is everyone ultimately is going to own some responsibility for keeping their services running and making sure that their applications and their businesses are successful. The best outcome would be that the A. P. R. S are the same and they're open and that both the cloud providers and the open source ecosystem and vendors and partners who drive many of these open source communities are actually all working together to have the most consistent environment to make portability a true strength. But when someone does differentiate and has a true best to bring service, we don't want to build artificial walls between those. I mean, I mean, that's hybrid cloud is you're going to make choices that make sense for you if we tell people that their choices don't work or they can't integrate or, you know, an open source project doesn't support this vendor, that vendor, we're actually leaving a lot of the complexity buried in those organizations. So I think this is a great time to, as we turn over for cloud. Native looking at how we, as much as possible try to drive those ap is closer together and the consistency underneath them is both a community and a vendor. And uh for red hat, it's part of what we do is a core mission is trying to make sure that that consistency is actually real. You don't have to worry about those details when you're ignoring them. >>That's a great point. Before I get into some architectural impact, I want to get your thoughts on um, the, this trends going on, Everyone jumps on the bandwagon. You know, you say, oh yeah, I gotta, I want a data cloud, you know, everything is like the new, you know, they saw Snowflake Apollo, I gotta have some, I got some of that data, You've got streaming data services, you've got data services and native into the, these platforms. But a lot of these companies think it's just, you're just gonna get a data cloud, just, it's so easy. Um, they might try something and then they get stuck with it or they have to re factor, >>how do you look >>at that as an architect when you have these new hot trends like say a data cloud, how should customers be thinking about kicking the tires on services like that And how should they think holistically around architect in that? >>There's a really interesting mindset is, uh, you know, we deal with this a lot. Everyone I talked to, you know, I've been with red hat for 10 years now in an open shift. All 10 years of that. We've gone through a bunch of transformations. Um, and every time I talked to, you know, I've talked to the same companies and organizations over the last 10 years, each point in their evolution, they're making decisions that are the right decision at the time. Um, they're choosing a new capability. So platform as a service is a great example of a capability that allowed a lot of really large organizations to standardize. Um, that ties into digital transformation. Ci CD is another big trend where it's an obvious wind. But depending on where you jumped on the bandwagon, depending on when you adopted, you're going to make a bunch of different trade offs. And that, that process is how do we improve the ability to keep all of the old stuff moving forward as well? And so open api is open standards are a big part of that, but equally it's understanding the trade offs that you're going to make and clearly communicating those so with data lakes. Um, there was kind of the 1st and 2nd iterations of data lakes, there was the uh, in the early days these capabilities were knew they were based around open source software. Um, a lot of the Hadoop and big data ecosystem, you know, started based on some of these key papers from amazon and google and others taking infrastructure ideas bringing them to scale. We went through a whole evolution of that and the input and the output of that basically let us into the next phase, which I think is the second phase of data leak, which is we have this data are tools are so much better because of that first phase that the investments we made the first time around, we're going to have to pay another investment to make that transformation. And so I've actually, I never want to caution someone not to jump early, but it has to be the right jump and it has to be something that really gives you a competitive advantage. A lot of infrastructure technology is you should make the choices that you make one or two big bets and sometimes people say this, you call it using their innovation tokens. You need to make the bets on big technologies that you operate more effectively at scale. It is somewhat hard to predict that. I certainly say that I've missed quite a few of the exciting transformations in the field just because, um, it wasn't always obvious that it was going to pay off to the degree that um, customers would need. >>So I gotta ask you on the real time applications side of it, that's been a big trend, certainly in cloud. But as you look at hybrid hybrid cloud environments, for instance, streaming data has been a big issue. Uh any updates there from you on your managed service? >>That's right. So one of we have to manage services um that are both closely aligned three managed services that are closely aligned with data in three different ways. And so um one of them is redhead open shift streams for Apache Kafka, which is managed cloud service that focuses on bringing that streaming data and letting you run it across multiple environments. And I think that, you know, we get to the heart of what's the purpose of uh managed services is to reduce operational overhead and to take responsibilities that allow users to focus on the things that actually matter for them. So for us, um managed open shift streams is really about the flow of data between applications in different environments, whether that's from the edge to an on premise data center, whether it's an on premise data center to the cloud. And increasingly these services which were running in the public cloud, increasingly these services have elements that run in the public cloud, but also key elements that run close to where your applications are. And I think that bridge is actually really important for us. That's a key component of hybrid is connecting the different locations and different footprints. So for us the focus is really how do we get data moving to the right place that complements our API management service, which is an add on for open ship dedicated, which means once you've brought the data and you need to expose it back out to other applications in the environment, you can build those applications on open shift, you can leverage the capabilities of open shift api management to expose them more easily, both to end customers or to other applications. And then our third services redhead open shift data science. Um and that is a, an integration that makes it easy for data scientists in a kubernetes environment. On open shift, they easily bring together the data to make, to analyze it and to help route it is appropriate. So those three facets for us are pretty important. They can be used in many different ways, but that focus on the flow of data across these different environments is really a key part of our longer term strategy. >>You know, all the customer checkboxes there you mentioned earlier. I mean I'll just summarize that that you said, you know, obviously value faster application velocity time to value. Those are like the checkboxes, Gardner told analysts check those lower complexity. Oh, we do the heavy lifting, all cloud benefits, so that's all cool. Everyone kind of gets that, everyone's been around cloud knows devops all those things come into play right now. The innovation focuses on operations and day to operations, becoming much more specific. When people say, hey, I've done some lift and shift, I've done some Greenfield born in the cloud now, it's like, whoa, this stuff, I haven't seen this before. As you start scaling. So this brings up that concept and then you add in multi cloud and hybrid cloud, you gotta have a unified experience. So these are the hot areas right this year, I would say, you know, that day to operate has been around for a while, but this idea of unification around environments to be fully distributed for developers is huge. >>How do you >>architect for that? This is the number one question I get. And I tease out when people are kind of talking about their environments that challenges their opportunities, they're really trying to architect, you know, the foundation that building to be um future proof, they don't want to get screwed over when they have, they realize they made a decision, they weren't thinking about day to operation or they didn't think about the unified experience across clouds across environments and services. This is huge. What's your take on this? >>So this is um, this is probably one of the hardest questions I think I could get asked, which is uh looking into the crystal ball, what are the aspects of today's environments that are accidental complexity? That's really just a result of the slow accretion of technologies and we all need to make bets when, when the time is right within the business, um and which parts of it are essential. What are the fundamental hard problems and so on. The accidental complexity side for red hat, it's really about um that consistent environment through open shift bringing capabilities, our connection to open source and making sure that there's an open ecosystem where um community members, users vendors can all work together to um find solutions that work for them because there's not, there's no way to solve for all of computing. It's just impossible. I think that is kind of our that's our development process and that's what helps make that accidental complexity of all that self away over time. But in the essential complexity data is tied the location, data has gravity data. Lakes are a great example of because data has gravity. The more data that you bring together, the bigger the scale the tools you can bring, you can invest in more specialized tools. I've almost do that as a specialization centralization. There's a ton of centralization going on right now at the same time that these new technologies are available to make it easier and easier. Whether that's large scale automation um with conflict management technologies, whether that's kubernetes and deploying it in multiple sites in multiple locations and open shift, bringing consistency so that you can run the apps the same way. But even further than that is concentrating, mhm. More of what would have typically been a specialist problem, something that you build a one off around in your organization to work through the problem. We're really getting to a point where pretty soon now there is a technology or a service for everyone. How do you get the data into that service out? How do you secure it? How do you glue it together? Um I think of, you know, some people might call this um you know, the ultimate integration problem, which is we're going to have all of this stuff and all of these places, what are the core concepts, location, security, placement, topology, latency, where data resides, who's accessing that data, We think of these as kind of the building blocks of where we're going next. So for us trying to make investments in, how do we make kubernetes work better across lots of environments. I have a coupon talk coming up this coupon, it's really exciting for me to talk about where we're going with, you know, the evolution of kubernetes, bringing the different pieces more closely together across multiple environments. But likewise, when we talk about our managed services, we've approached the strategy for managed services as it's not just the service in isolation, it's how it connects to the other pieces. What can we learn in the community, in our services, working with users that benefits that connectivity. So I mentioned the open shift streams connecting up environments, we'd really like to improve how applications connect across disparate environments. That's a fundamental property of if you're going to have data uh in one geographic region and you didn't move services closer to that well, those services I need to know and encode and have that behavior to get closer to where the data is, whether it's one data lake or 10. We gotta have that flexibility in place. And so those obstructions are really, and to >>your point about the building blocks where you've got to factor in those building blocks, because you're gonna need to understand the latency impact, that's going to impact how you're gonna handle the compute piece, that's gonna handle all these things are coming into play. So, again, if you're mindful of the building blocks, just as a cloud concept, um, then you're okay. >>We hear this a lot. Actually, there's real challenges in the, the ecosystem of uh, we see a lot of the problems of I want to help someone automate and improved, but the more balkanize, the more spread out, the more individual solutions are in play, it's harder for someone to bring their technology to bear to help solve the problem. So looking for ways that we can um, you know, grease the skids to build the glue. I think open source works best when it's defining de facto solutions that everybody agrees on that openness and the easy access is a key property that makes de facto standards emerged from open source. What can we do to grow defacto standards around multi cloud and application movement and application interconnect I think is a very, it's already happening and what can we do to accelerate it? That's it. >>Well, I think you bring up a really good point. This is probably a follow up, maybe a clubhouse talk or you guys will do a separate session on this. But I've been riffing on this idea of uh, today's silos, tomorrow's component, right, or module. If most people don't realize that these silos can be problematic if not thought through. So you have to kill the silos to bring in kind of an open police. So if you're open, not closed, you can leverage a monolith. Today's monolithic app or full stack could be tomorrow's building block unless you don't open up. So this is where interesting design question comes in, which is, it's okay to have pre existing stuff if you're open about it. But if you stay siloed, you're gonna get really stuck >>and there's going to be more and more pre existing stuff I think, you know, uh even the data lake for every day to lake, there is a huge problem of how to get data into the data lake or taking existing applications that came from the previous data link. And so there's a, there's a natural evolutionary process where let's focus on the mechanisms that actually move that day to get that data flowing. Um, I think we're still in the early phases of thinking about huge amounts of applications. Microservices or you know, 10 years old in the sense of it being a fairly common industry talking point before that we have service oriented architecture. But the difference now is that we're encouraging and building one developer, one team might run several services. They might use three or four different sas vendors. They might depend on five or 10 or 15 cloud services. Those integration points make them easier. But it's a new opportunity for us to say, well, what are the differences to go back to? The point is you can keep your silos, we just want to have great integration in and out of >>those. Exactly, they don't have to you have to break down the silos. So again, it's a tried and true formula integration, interoperability and abstracting away the complexity with some sort of new software abstraction layer. You bring that to play as long as you can paddle with that, you apply the new building blocks, you're classified. >>It sounds so that's so simple, doesn't it? It does. And you know, of course it'll take us 10 years to get there. And uh, you know, after cloud native will be will be galactic native or something like that. You know, there's always going to be a new uh concept that we need to work in. I think the key concepts we're really going after our everyone is trying to run resilient and reliable services and the clouds give us in the clouds take it away. They give us those opportunities to have some of those building blocks like location of geographic hardware resources, but they will always be data that spread. And again, you still have to apply those principles to the cloud to get the service guarantees that you need. I think there's a completely untapped area for helping software developers and software teams understand the actual availability and guarantees of the underlying environment. It's a property of the services you run with. If you're using a disk in a particular availability zone, that's a property of your application. I think there's a rich area that hasn't been mined yet. Of helping you understand what your effective service level goals which of those can be met. Which cannot, it doesn't make a lot of sense in a single cluster or single machine or a single location world the moment you start to talk about, Well I have my data lake. Well what are the ways my data leg can fail? How do we look at your complex web of interdependencies and say, well clearly if you lose this cloud provider, you're going to lose not just the things that you have running there, but these other dependencies, there's a lot of, there's a lot of next steps that we're just learning what happens when a major cloud goes down for a day or a region of a cloud goes down for a day. You still have to design and work around those >>cases. It's distributed computing. And again, I love the space where galactic cloud, you got SpaceX? Where's Cloud X? I mean, you know, space is the next frontier. You know, you've got all kinds of action happening in space. Great space reference there. Clayton, Great insight. Thanks for coming on. Uh, Clayton Coleman architect at red Hat. Clayton, Thanks for coming on. >>Pretty pleasure. >>Always. Great chat. I'm talking under the hood. What's going on in red hats? New managed cloud service portfolio? Again, the world's getting complex, abstract away. The complexities with software Inter operate integrate. That's the key formula with the cloud building blocks. I'm john ferry with the cube. Thanks for watching. Yeah.

>>Mhm Yes. Hello and welcome back to the cube coverage of red hat summit 2021 Virtual. I'm john furrier host of the Q. We've got a great lineup here. We've got two great guests just bad padan, E. S. V. P. Of cloud platforms at red hat and Tracy ranking VP of open shift engineering at Red Hat folks. Thanks for coming on. Good to see. You got some big news, you guys have made some acquisitions. Uh stack rocks you guys bought into red hat was a really big deal. People want to know, what's the story? How's it going? What's the uptake? What's the integration, how's it going? >>Right, thanks john, thanks for having us on. Um so yeah, we're really excited with stack rocks acquisition being the team on board. Uh Well, the first thing to note before even why we did it uh was for for you and and then the beers have been following us closely. This is our first acquisition as red Hat being part of IBM. So, so, so quite big for us from that perspective as well. Right? Continue to maintain our independence um within uh IBM uh and I really appreciate that way of working together. Um but saying all of that aside, you know, as a company have always been focused on ensuring that were direct enterprise capabilities to just sort of doing that for two decades. With with Lennox, security has always been a big part of our story, right, ensuring that, you know, we're finding cbs updating uh and sending out patches to our customers and doing that in a reliable fashion running mission critical applications. We applied that same if you will um security mindset on the community side with the open ship platform. Um we've invested insecurity ourselves organically, right, you know, uh in various areas and making it more secure, all right, can't run containers uh as Root by default, uh investing in things like role based access control and so on. And we really felt like we want to deepen our commitment to security. Uh and so, you know, in conversations with stack rocks, we found just a great fit, just a great team building a really interesting approach to community security, right? You know, very declared of approach to it. Uh you know, focus on a vision around this notion of shift left. But you've probably been hearing from that because we're a little bit right. Which is this uh idea that, you know, we're in the world moving from devops to death setups. Uh and the approach that sack rocks were saying, so great team, great product, really great vision with regard to kind of weather going forward and finding a nice alignment between, you know what, you know, they've been thinking about the value that we want to bring >>Yeah, I want to dig into the depths cops, piece of it. But you brought up the IBM acquisition as part of now Red Hat bought IBM you know it's just you remember back in 2019 I interviewed Arvin on the cube when he was at IBM you guys were still independent and he had a smile on his face. He is pro cloud, he is all about cloud Native and even that interview I had no idea what was going on behind the scenes but I was kind of drilling him on some of the things that were important at that time which are now certainly relevant today which is cloud Native, Agile development Programmable infrastructure. I don't think we touched on security that much was kind of inherent in the conversation. He was like all smiling, he loves the cloud Native and and this is where it comes into the relevant, I have to ask you, what was it like to get this through? IBM where they're like girl green light or was it, was it different? What was different about this acquisition? >>John great, great question for you to ask. And you know, I will say that, uh, you know, everyone's heard the stories they're telling us. They get, you know, part of IBM, you know, it's definitely working on red hat jOHn the cube we've talked to you and several of your colleagues about that. Um, the great thing has been that, look, the redhead way of working, uh, are still pushing forward with regard to our commitment to open source, uh, and our culture, you know, is still the way it is. And I have to give huge credit not just to urban and his and his team, but definitely to orbit right. He's always champion, He's champion rather acquisition. He's champion kind of, you know, the independence that we've had and he takes very, very firm stance around it. Um, and look, IBM uh, story company uh, in the United States and really in the world, um, they have, there was working and you know, for redhead, they've kind of said, look, we'll give you a pass path, right? So, uh, getting the acquisition through, if you will, diarrhea processes, um, really was, was hugely supported by, you know, from mormon, but all the way down. Russian strategic >>strategic bet with the dollars involved trace, they want to get you in this because, you know, one of the things about shift left and getting security built in by default, which has always been part of red hat, that's never been an issue. It just extends as developers want to have native security built in. There's a technology angle to this as well. So, um, obviously cloud native is super important. What investments are you guys making with this acquisition and how does that translate to customer benefits? >>Yeah, I mean the one thing that is really important about the stock rocks acquisition and kind of, you know, key for us is, you know, this was a cube native solution and I think that's really, you know, was important piece as to why stock rocks might have been, you know, was a great fit for us. Um, and so you know, what we've been trying to do in the short time that that team has been on board with us is really, you know, taken a deep look and understanding where are the intersection points of some of the things that we have been trying to focus on, you know, just with inside of, you know, open shift in red hat in general and where do they have bring the additional value. Um, and really trying to make sure that when we create this solution and ultimately it is a solution that's cohesive across the board. Um, we don't add confusion too. You know what, some of the things that maybe we already do this team knows, you know, how to they know their customer base. They really know what the customers are looking for. And we are just trying to absorb, I would say so much of this information uh as we are trying to, you know, create what the right road map will be uh for stack rocks from a long term and infrared had ultimately in the security space. I mean, as the chef said, I mean we are red hats known for being, you know, security mind focus built on top of realm, you know, uh the leader and so we want to make sure that what we've got that actually serves, you know, the developers being able to not just secure the environment and the platform, but also the workloads, customers need that security from us. Um and build it in so that we have, you know, into the cube native >>controls. >>So stack rocks was known for reinventing and security enterprise security with cloud native. How is it complimentary? How does it fit in? Can you guys just quickly talk to that point because um like you said, you guys had security but as kubernetes and containers in general continue to rise up and and kubernetes continue to become a hybrid cloud kind of linchpin for applications. Um where's the synergy? Where's where does this connect? And what are some of the uh the part of the areas where it's it's fitting in nicely or or any overlaps that you can talk about as well? >>Yeah, I can start and then maybe Tracy if you want to add to that securities of it's a wide space. Right? So, you know, just saying security is like, well, you know what security you're talking about, you're talking about, you know, and use the security, like what your desktop are you talking about? You know, intrusion prevention? I mean, it's a huge, huge, you know, space. Uh you know, many companies devoted to the entire spectrum, you know, self has a very robust security business. We're very focused on uniting Tracy. Was talking about this, the Kubernetes Native security part of this. Right. You know, do we have the appropriate runtime uh, controls in place? Uh You know, our policies configured appropriately Well, if they're in one cluster, are they being applied consistently across, you know, every cluster? How do we make sure that, you know, we make security the domain, not just of the operators but also uh in in uh make it easier for it to be adopted at development time. So, you know, there's a, there's a, if you will, a very sort of uh a lot of surface area for security, we're trying to really think about the pieces that are most relevant for our enterprise customers and the ones that are deploying it at scale. And I'm sure we can build on it. Having said that, john what I do want to add also is that because expands even of Cuban any security is so large, there is a lot of room for our partners to play. Right? And so before you asked me that question, I want to say that there is space. Right? So you know, I've had conversations with you know, all the other folks in the cloud native security space. We know them well, we've been working with them over the years and we could do to look forward to ensure that they're building over and above the foundation of Berlin. >>So plenty of beachhead, what you're saying from a, from a security sample, you guys hit the table stakes added into the product, but there's so much surface area going on with this hybrid cloud and soon to be multi cloud that you're saying this room for partners to play. >>Exactly, right, >>okay. Tracy quick under the hood, you know, actually shift left. That's kind of the mindset for developers who are writing modern applications might not want to get under the hood, who just wanted all the program ability of security and not have to come back to it. I mean that seems to be the complaint that I hear. It's like okay I gotta come back and do a security, more security work. I just wrote the code that was last week or yesterday and that seems to be the developer productivity. Then there's also under the hood devops what how does this all fit? >>Yeah, so it's uh let's take a take a step back and this is how I kind of like to think about it. So we are trying to look at, you know, how do we just enable in some of the C. I. C. D. The tooling that we have? How do we actually take and enable some of the technology that was already available in stock rocks today and actually put it into those tools. Because if we can make it easy for you to not just develop your application and, you know, integrated in with what you're, the tooling is that you're trying to use for the entire life cycle of developing your application. It then becomes exactly what you didn't say, you know, what they're doing now is it's an after thought. We don't need it to be an afterthought. Um and I think, you know, we're seeing the changing from a customer mindset where um they're become customers are becoming a lot more aware of these things. So if we actually get this into, you know, some of the Argo and the ci cd pipe pipeline work, then it just becomes something natural and not a secondary thought because actually when it's a secondary thought, uh we have exposures and that's not what a customer wants when they're creating, you know, creating these workloads, they're trying to rapidly create the workloads, so we need to make it um to have those integration points in as quickly >>as possible. >>Totally nailed. I mean there's productivity issues and there's also the top line which is security. Great stuff. Congratulations on that acquisition. Security continues to be built in from the beginning. That's what people want. They want productivity want want security, great stuff, Great acquisition. Congratulations. Um Next next segment I want to get into is uh open shifts around telemetry. Tell us about telemetry for open shift. What is this about? >>Yeah, another big interesting topic for us. So over a year ago we released open Ship for and you know, we learned a lot of lessons, you know, shipping open ship three up and over the years and really getting feedback from hundreds of customers around the globe. One of the things obviously we heard from a lot was you know, make install the upgrade experience better. Right. But you know, we were thinking about how can we take that forward to the next level, which is is there a way for us to say, you know, let these clusters they connected up so we can get a better sense of cluster help and help with remote health monitoring will be able to proactively provide information back to our customers around, let's say, you know, if applications are healthy clusters healthy and how they're running and how we can help them um could figure them if they're not. Um And so that led us to introducing uh inflammatory remote health monitoring directly into open ship for as a value that we can provide to customers. Um And what that really starts doing is starts bringing this notion of a public cloud, like experience to customers with clusters run across the hybrid cloud. Right? So you have the expectation that, you know, your clusters are monitored and watched over in the public cloud and we want to make sure we can provide that to customers regardless of, you know, where they're running in. So, so that's just >>a quick question on that insights for open shit. That's what you're getting to. Is that on premise? And in the cloud? So it's hybrid environment, is that correct? >>Exactly. Right. So, the insights for open ship is all about that, Right? So how can be proactively, you know, uh identify risk helped remediated? How can we uh do things like, for example, give you recommendations, cost optimization, right insights around around around that. Uh and to your point, right? The goal is to make it completely hybrid. So, it's obviously a new area right for customers want Leslie used to that, you know, in an on premise environment, they're used to that in a public cloud or cloud native environment. And we're trying to make sure we bring that consistently across to our customers, you know, regardless of where they're running apart. >>Tracy. Talk about the the developer productivity involved because if you have telemetry and you have insight into what's going on in the infrastructure and the data, what's going on the application, you can be more proactive, You don't have to get pulled into these rabbit holes of troubleshooting. Oh, is a trace over here or something going on over here. Are clusters going down or should I could have caught that there's a lot of, you know, good intentions with with the code and then all of a sudden new code gets pushed and then also that triggers this to go off and you have all these kind of dependencies, day two operations, many people call this kind of that phenomenon where everything looks good and then you start pushing more stuff more code and then the cluster goes down and then it's like wait, that could have been avoided. That was a dumb error, we could have fixed that this is kind of the basic what I call human software error kind of stuff that's not intended. The telemetry help this area. >>Yeah, it does. And actually one point that even to take it further, that I think it's important is our customers can learn from each other not even having to talk to each other, which is the beauty of what telemetry is and what redhead insights, rope and shift is. You know, what we have been able to see is you know, there are certain characteristics that happen even across, you know, certain groups of customers but they don't know that they don't talk to each other, but the telemetry is giving us a night into what some of those patterns are. And so when a customer in one site starts to have, we start to see telemetry, you know, you know, maybe a. T. D. Is going down for a certain reason and and we can determine that we then have the ability to take that telemetry and you know, be able to send alerts back to all the other customers and say, hey we recognize this might be becoming an issue, You know, here's how you might re mediate it or hey we've already put a fix out for this issue that we're starting to see you having an issue, you should probably take action on. So it's an increasing the the efficiency of customers without them necessarily having to, you know, constantly be understanding, monitoring, you know, watching everything like they had had to do from of the three perspective, we're now giving them some of the insights of what we know as developers back to them, >>you know, that's interesting. I think that's really key because it's talking to a friend last night we just talked about cybersecurity and we're talking about how a lot of these things are patterns that have that are the same and people just don't talk to each other. There's no shared insights. I think this is an interesting dynamic where you can get the collective intelligence of other patterns and then share that. So the question that I mean that's that's a game changer in my opinion. So that's awesome. The question I have is can you guys push alerts and recommendations to the customers? So from this data? So how does that work? Is that built into the product? Can I get some proactive notifications and saying, hey, you know, your cluster might go down and we've seen this before, we've seen this movie. I mean she is that built in. >>Yeah, so john you're keeping it exactly where we're taking this, right? And I think Tracy started putting out some breadcrumbs for you there. So uh, first get comfortable with the foundation was laid out, get clusters connected right. Then information starts going, reported, we start getting exactly to what you said, john write a set of patterns that we can see Tracy, start talking about what we can, if we see pattern on one end, we can go off and help customers on other end. Now, if you take this forward interest for your viewers today, um introduce a I you know, into this, right? And then we can start almost starting to proactive now of saying, look, you know, following actions are going to be committed or we expect them to be committed. You know, here's what the outcome is a result of that. Here's what we recommend for you to do, right? So start proactive remediation along that. So that is exactly, you know, the surface that we're trying to lay down here and I think this is a huge, >>huge game changer. Well, great stuff, want to move on the next we're getting go on for hours on that one topic. I think telemetry is a super important trend. Uh you guys are on top of a great, great job to bring in the Ai piece. I think that's super cool. Let's get back to the end of blocking and tackling Tracy. You know, one of the things that we're seeing with devops as it goes mainstream now, you've got def sec apps in there too, is you've got the infrastructure and you've got the modern application development, modern application developers, just wanna code, be productive, all that security shifting left, everyone's all happy that things are going great under the hood. You have a whole set of developers working on infrastructure. The end of the customers don't want to manage their own infrastructure. How is red hat focused on these two groups? Because you got this SRE like cloud Ops persona developing in the enterprise and you got the developers, it's kind of like almost two worlds coming together, how you, how you helping customers, you know, control their infrastructure and manage it better. >>Yeah, so great question. And you know, this really plays to the strength of what, you know, we have been trying to champion here at red hat for for many years now around the hybrid cloud and this, you know, hopefully everybody's recently heard about the announcement we've made with our new offering Rosa in partnership with amazon. Um you know, we've got different offerings that enables customers to really focus, as you mentioned on the key aspects that they are concerned about, which is how do they drive their businesses, how do they create their applications, their workloads that they need to and offload, you know, the need for having to understand all of the I. T. Infrastructure that's underneath. Um We want to red hat to reduce the operational complexity that customers are having um and give them the ability to really focus on what's important for them. Um how can they be able to scale out their applications, their businesses and continue to add value where they need to have and so um I think it's great we're seeing a huge uptake right now and we've got customers and they understand completely this hybrid cloud model where they're, you know, purchasing open shift um for certain, you know, applications and workloads that they want to run inside their own data centers. And then for those that they know that they don't, you know, don't have to be inside their own data centers. They don't want to have all of that operational complexity. They want to utilize some of the clouds. That's when they're starting to look at other things like rosa or open shift dedicated and and really starting to find the right mix that works well for their business. >>So are you saying that you guys are going to the next level because the previous, I won't say generation but the current situation was okay, you're born in the cloud or you lift and shift to the cloud, You do that manually, then you go on premise to build that cloud operations. Now you're in a hybrid environment. So you're saying if I get this right that you guys are providing automation around standing up in building services on AWS and cloud, public cloud and hybrid, is that kinda what you're getting at? >>Yeah. So the to go to the higher multi cloud world, right? You want platform consistency, right? Running my application running on a platform consistently, you know, where we go. Right. Tracy started talking about this idea of in some cases you say, well I've got the infrastructure team, I've got the ops team, johnny talked about this notion of, well the dwarves can be hard, sometimes right to some groups. Um, and so hey, red hat or hey redhead, plus, you know, my hyper scale of choice, you know, take that off of my hands, Right. Run that for me consistently yourself. Right. So I focused on my application uh and the management of infrastructure is something that's on you Tracy talked about rosa, that's our joint uh first party service that you know, we've got with amazon were directly available in amazon's console, you can go pull that down, right. You'll see red hat open shift on AWS, right on their uh we've got a similar one with Microsoft Azure Tracy mentioned open dedicated, we stand up the platform, we have our own sorry team that manages it with IBM as well as with google. So you pick your cloud of choice and we'll make sure, you know, we'll give you a platform that if you as a customer so choose to self manage. Great, go for it. If you'd like for us to manage it directly ourselves or in conjunction with the cloud provider and provided to you as a native service, you know, we can do that for you as well. Right? So that day to obsolete, you know, challenge that we're talking about. You know, it's something that we can get your hands if you want us to. >>That's really cool. You gotta manage service. They can do it themselves whatever they want. They can do it on public cloud and hybrid. Great stuff. Yeah, I think that's the key. Um, and that's, that's, that's killer. Now, the next question is my favorite. I want to ask you guys both pretend I'm a customer and I'm like, okay, Tracy shit, tell me what's in it for me. What is open shifts and red hat doing for me is the customer? What are you bringing to the table for me? What are you gonna do for me? What is red hat doing for me today? So if you have the kind of bottom line we were in the elevator or probably I ask you, I like what I'm hearing. Why? Why are you cool? Why are you relevant? What's in it for me? >>You >>already start? Okay. Yeah, so I mean I think it's a couple of things that we let's just tie it back to the first initial blend. I mean we've got, we're enabling the customers to choose like where do they want to work that run their workloads, what do they want to focus on? I think that's the first thing. Um we're enabling them to also determine like what workloads do they want to put on there. We continue to expand the workloads that we are providing um capabilities to customers. You know most, you know one of the more recent ones we've had is you know, enablement of Windows containers a huge plus for us. Um, you know, it's just kind of talked about, dropped the buzzword ai you know, recently, you know, we're looking at that, we're talking about, you know, moving workloads need to go to the edge now. It's not just about being in the data centers, so it's about enablement. That's really what open shift as you know, bread and butter is, is, you know, let us, you know, create the ability for you to drive your workloads, whichever, whatever your workloads is, modernize those workloads um, in place them wherever you want to. >>Yes, your your answer. How would you say to that? >>I'll build on what Tracy said, right. She obviously took the, you know, build up tribal Benjamin perspective and I'll sort of talk about a business thing you're introducing, actually add threat at summit. So, you know, we go up and acquire stock rocks, you know, further deepen investment in communities or containment of security. Uh if you recall, john, we've talked to you about, you know, advanced cluster management team that we actually got from IBM incorporate that within red hat, um, to start providing, you know, those capabilities are consistent, you know, cluster policy, immigration management. Um, and you know, in the past we've made an acquisition of Core West, we've got a lot of technology from that incorporated the platform and also things like the quake container registry. What we're introducing address had some it is a way for us to package all of that together. So a customer doesn't say, look, you know, let me pick out a container platform here, let me go find, you know, somebody manage it over there. You let me see, you know what security you adhere. We introduced something called open shift platform plus right. Which is the packaging of, you know, core Open shift contain a platform uh, capabilities within uh, stack rocks, which we're calling advanced cluster security capabilities of cluster management, which is called advanced cluster management. And the quake container registry always want to make it much easier for customers to consume that. And again, you know, the goal is, you know, run that consistently in your hybrid multi club >>chef Tracy. Great, great segment, great insight. Um, here on the cloud platform and open shift under the hood. Uh, you guys are well positioned and I was talking about Arvin and idea who acquired red hat. You know, it's pretty clear that cloud native hybrid is the new cloud operating environment. That's clear. You guys are well positioned. And congratulations. Final question Chef. Take a minute to quickly put the plug in for open shift. What's next? Um, looking forward, what do you guys building on? Um, what's on the roadmap if you can negative share the road map, but yeah, tell us what you're thinking about. I mean you're innovating out in the open, love your shirt by the way and that's the red hat way, looking ahead. What's coming for? Open shift? >>So john I will say this, our roadmap is out in the open every quarter. Our product managers host the session right open to anybody, right? You know, customers prospect, competitors, anybody can can come on. Um, and uh, you hear about our road map, lots of interesting things they're working on uh, as you can imagine investments on the edge front, right? So that's across our portfolio, right on the open shift side, but also on learning platform as well as on the open stack front, make it easier to have, you know, slim down open shift. we'll run that you won't be able to run uh open ship in remote locations and then manage it. Um So expect for us uh you know, just to show you more work there, drinking things like uh ai and more workloads directly onto the platform, but you'll see what they're doing to get more Alex on what we're doing to take uh technologies that we've got called Open data hub to make it easier to run more data intensive, more ai ml types of frameworks directly a platform. Um And so that's a great interest, more workloads Tracy, start talking about that. Right, so Windows containers, support has G eight, uh and what's really awesome about that is that we've done that with Microsoft, right, so that offering is jointly supported by both us and our partners over at Microsoft uh virtualization, which is taking much machines and being able to run them as dangerous orchestrated by communities Um, and and doing more work, you know, on that front as well. So just a lot of different areas uh, were investigated and really, really excited to bring more workloads on 2:00. >>Well, Chef Tracy, great segment with a lot of data in there. Thanks for spending time in and providing that insight and uh, sharing the information. A lot of flowers blooming um, here in the cloud native environment, a lot of action. A lot of new stuff going on. Love the shift left. I think that's super relevant. You guys do a great job. Thanks for coming on. I appreciate it. >>Okay. >>This the cubes coverage of red hat summit. I'm john for a host of the cube. Thank you for watching.

>>Hey, welcome to the Cubes coverage of Red Hat Summit 2021, the virtual experience, I'm lisa martin, I have two guests joining me. One is a cube alum kamal Shah is back, he's now the VP of cloud platforms at Brent had come on, it's great to have you back on the program. You're in a new role, we're going to talk about that. Thank you. And Kirsten newcomer is here as well. She's the Director of cloud and Death stickups strategy at Red Hat, Kirsten, Welcome and thank you for bringing the red hat vibe to the segment. >>Absolutely, very happy to be here. >>So looking forward to this conversation that we're going to be having in the next 20 minutes or so. We're gonna be talking about the last time come on, you were on, you were the ceo of stack rocks In January of 2021. The announcement that red hat plans to acquire stack rocks, it wouldn't be talking all about that. But I'd like to start with Kirsten, give us your perspective from red hats perspective, why is red hat a good fit for stack rocks? >>You know, there are so many reasons first of all as as you know, right? Red hat has been working with product Izing kubernetes since kubernetes one dato. Right, so so open shift three dato shipped with kubernetes one dot Oh, so we've been working with kubernetes for a long time, stack rocks embraces kind of is kubernetes native security embraces the declarative nature of kubernetes and brings that to security. Red hats, Custer's red hat enterprise customers, we have a great set across different verticals that are very security conscious and and during my five years at red hat, that's where I spend the majority of my time is talking with our customers about container and kubernetes security. And while there's a great deal of security built in to open shift as it goes to market out of the box, customers need the additional capabilities that stack rock springs. Historically, we've met those needs with our security partners. We have a great ecosystem of security partners. And with the stack rocks acquisition, we're now in a position to offer additional choice. Right. If a customer wants those capabilities from Red hat tightly integrated with open shift, we'll have those available and we continue to support and work with our broad ecosystem of security partners. >>Excellent customers always want choice. Come on. Give me your perspective. You were at the helm the ceo of stack rocks as you were last time you were on the cube. Talk to me about the redhead acquisition from your seat. >>Yeah. So as as Kirsten mentioned, we were partners of red hat. You're part of the red hat partner ecosystem. And uh, what we found is that was both a great strategic fit and a great cultural fit between our two companies. Right? And so the discussions that we had were how do we go and quickly enable our customers to accelerate their digital transformation initiatives to move workloads to the cloud, to containerized them, to manage them through kubernetes and make sure that we seamlessly addressed their security concerns. Right? Because it continues to be the number one concern for large enterprises and medium sized enterprises and frankly any enterprise that uh, you know, uh, working out today. So, so that was kind of the impetus behind it. And I must say that so far the the acquisition has been going on very smoothly. So we had two months in roughly and everybody and has been very welcoming, very collaborative, very supportive. And we are already working hand in hand to to integrate our companies and to make sure that we are working closely together to make our customers successful. >>Excellent. We're gonna talk about that integration in a second. But I can imagine challenging going through an acquisition during a global pandemic. Um but that is one of the things that I think lends itself to the cultural alignment. Kamal that you talked about, Kirsten. I want to get your perspective. We know we talk about corporate culture and corporate culture has changed a lot in the last year with everybody or so many of us being remote. Talk to me about kind of the core values that red hat and stack rocks share >>actually, you know, that's been one of the great joys doing during the acquisition process in particular, Kamal and and ali shared kind of their key values and how they um how they talked to talk with their team And some of the overlap was just so resonated so much for all of us. In particular the sense of transparency, uh, that the, that the team the stack rocks executive team brings and approaches. That's a that's a clear value for red hat um strongly maintained. Uh, that was one of the key things the interest in um uh, containers and kubernetes. Right. So the technology alignment was very clear. We probably wouldn't have proceeded without that. But again, um and I think the investment in people and the independence and the and the strong drive of the individuals and supporting the individuals as they contribute to the offering so that it really creates that sense of community um and collaboration that is key. Uh and and it's just really strong overlap in in cultural values and we so appreciated that >>community and collaboration couldn't be more important these days. And ultimately the winner is the customers. So let's dig in. Let's talk about what stack rocks brings to open shift Kirsten take it away >>man. So as I said earlier, um so I think we we really believe in continuous security at red hat and in defense and depth. And so when we look at an enterprise kubernetes distribution that involves security at the real core os layer security and kubernetes adding the things into the distribution, making sure they're there by default, that any distribution needs to be secured to be hardened, auditing, logging, identity, access management, just a wealth of things. And Red hat has historically focused on infrastructure and platform security, building those capabilities into what we bring to market stack rocks enhances what we already have and really adds workload protection, which is really when it comes down to it. Especially if you're looking at hybrid cloud, multi cloud, how you secure, not just the platform, but how you secure your workloads changes. And we're moving from a world where, you know, you're deploying anti virus or malware scanners on your VMS and your host operating system to a world where those work clothes may be very short lived. And if they aren't secured from the get go, you miss your opportunity to secure them right? You can't rely on, you know, you do need controls in the infrastructure but they need to be kubernetes native controls and you need to shift that security left. Right? You never patch a running container. You always have to rebuild and redeploy if you patch the running container the next time that container images deployed, you've missed, you've lost that patch. And so the whole ethos the whole shift left. The Deb sec ops capabilities that stack rock springs really adds such value. Right? You can't just do DEF SEc or set cops. You need to do a full infinity loop to really have def SEc ops and stack rocks. I'm gonna let Kamal tell you about it, but they have so many capabilities that that really drive that shift left and enable that closed loop. We're just so excited that they're part of our offerings. >>So can you take us through that? How does stack rocks facilitate the shift left? >>Yeah, absolutely. So stack rocks, which we we announced at summit is now being rebranded as red hat. Advanced cluster security was really purpose built to help our customers address the use cases across the entire application lifecycle. Right? So from bill to deploy to run time. So this is the infinite loop that Kirsten mentioned earlier and one of our foundations was to be kubernetes native to ensure that security is really built into the application is supposed to bolt it on. So specifically, we help our customers shift left by securing the supply chain and we're making sure that we identifying vulnerabilities early during the build process before they make it to a production environment. We helped them secure the infrastructure by preventing miS configurations again early in the process because as we all know, MIS configurations often lead to breaches at at runtime. Right? We help them address uh compliance requirements by ensuring that we can check for CS benchmarks are regulatory requirements around the C I P C I, hip hop and this and and that's uh you know, just focusing on shift left, doesn't really mean that you ignore the right side or ignore the controls you need uh when your applications are running in production. So we help them secure that at runtime by identifying preventing breaches the threat detection, prevention and incident response. >>That built in security is you both mentioned that built in versus bolt on Kirsten? Talk to me about that, that as really kind of a door opener. We talked a lot about security issues, especially in the last year. I don't know how many times we've talked about miS configurations leading to breaches that we've seen so many security challenges present in the last year. We talked to me a little bit Kirsten about >>what >>customers appetites are for going. All right now, I've got cloud native security, I'm going to be able to, I'm going to feel more comfortable with rolling out production deployments. >>It's, it's a great place to go. So there are a number of elements to think about. And if I could, I could, I could start with by building on the example that Kamal said, Right, So when we think about um I need to build security into my pipeline so that when I deliver my containerized workloads, they're secure. What if I miss a step or what if a new vulnerability is discovered after the fact? Right. So one of the things that stack rocks or redhead a CS offers is it has built in policy checks to see whether a container or running image has something like a package manager in it. Well, a package manager can be used to load software that is not delivered with the container. And so the idea of ensuring that you are including workload, built in workload, protect locks with policies that are written for you. So you can focus on building your applications. You don't necessarily have to learn everything there is to know about the new attack vectors that are really just it it's new packaging, it's new technology. It's not so much there are some new attack vectors, but mostly it's a new way of delivering and running your applications. That requires some changes to how you implement your security policies. And so ensuring that you have the tools and the technology that you're running on have those capabilities built in. So that when we have conversations with our security conscious customers, we can talk with them about the attack vectors they care about. We can illustrate how we are addressing those particular concerns. Right? One of them being malware in a container, we can look for stack. Rocks can look for a package manager that could be used to pull in, you know, code that could be exploited and you can stop a running container. Um, we can do deeper data collection with stack rocks. Again, one of the challenges when you're looking at moving your security capabilities from a traditional application environment is containers come and go all the time. In a kubernetes cluster nodes, your servers can come and go in a cloud native kubernetes cluster, right? If you're running on on cloud public cloud infrastructure, um, those things are the nodes are ephemeral to, they're designed to be shut down and brought back up. So you've got a lot more data that you need to collect and that you need to analyze and you need to correlate the information between these. Right? I no longer have one application stack running on one or more VMS, it's just things are things are moving fast so you want the right type of data collection and the right correlation to have good visibility into your environment. >>And if I can just build on that a little bit. The whole idea here is that these policies really serve as god rails right for the developers. So the it allows developers to move quickly to accelerate the speed of development without having to worry about hundreds of potential security issues because there are guardrails that will notify that with concrete recommendations early in the process. And the analogy I often use is that you know the reason we have breaks in our cars, it's not to slow us down but to allow us to go faster because we know we can slow down when we need to write. So similarly these policies are really it's really designed to accelerate the speed of development and accelerate digital transformation initiatives that our customers are embarking on >>and come on. I want to stick with you on the digital transformation front. We've talked so much about how accelerated that has been in the last year with everything going on in such a dynamic market. Talk to me Kamal about some of the feedback that you've gotten from stack rocks customers about the acquisition and how it is that maybe that facilitator of the many pivots that businesses have had to do in the last year to go from survival mode to thriving business. >>Yeah. Yes, absolutely. The feedback from all of our customers bar none has been very very positive. So it's been it's allowed us to invest more in the business and you know, we publicly stated that we are going to invest more in adding more capabilities. We are more than doubling the size of our teams as an example. And really working hand in hand with our uh the broader team at Red had to uh further accelerate the speed of development and digital transformation initiatives. So it's been extremely positive because we're adding more resources, We're investing more. We're accelerating the product roadmap uh based on uh compared to what we could do as a, as a start up as you can imagine. And and the feedback has been nothing but positive. So that's kind of where we are today. And what we're doing with the summit is rolling out a new bundle called open shift uh, Open shift platform plus, which includes not just Red hat A CS which used to be Stock rocks, but also red hat open shift hybrid cloud platform as well as Red hat advanced uh container cluster management, ACM capabilities as well as create the container registry. So we're making it easier for our customers to get all the capabilities that they need to for the drive digital transformation initiatives to get. It goes back to this whole customer centric city team that red hat has, that was also core value of stack rocks and and the winner and all of this, we believe ultimately is our, our our customers because that's where we exist to serve them, >>right. And I really like that if I could chime in kind of on top of that a little bit. Um so, so I think that one of the things we've seen with the pandemic is more of the red Hat customers are accelerating their move to public cloud and away from on premises data centers. Uh and and you know, that's just part partly because of so many people working remotely. Um it just has really pushed things. And so with Hybrid cloud becoming even more key to our joint customer base and by hybrid cloud, I mean that they have some environments that are on premises as they're making this transition. Some of those environments may stay that footprint may stay on premises, but it might be smaller, they may not have settled on a single public cloud. They could, in fact, they often are picking a public cloud based on where their development focuses. Google is very popular for ai and ml workloads. Amazon of course is just used, you know, by pretty much everybody. Um and then Azzurri is popular with um a subset of customers as well. And so we see our customers investing in all of these environments and stack rocks red hat A CS like open shift runs in all these environments. So with open shift platform plus you get a complete solution that helps with multi cluster management with a C. M with security across all of these environments, right? You can take one approach to how you secure your cluster, how you secure your workloads, how you manage configurations, You get one approach no matter where you're running your containers and kubernetes platform when you're doing this with open shift platform plus. So you also get portability. If today you want to be running an amazon maybe tomorrow you need to spin up a cluster in google, you can do that if you're working with the K s or G K E, you can or a Ks, you can do that with red hat a CS as well. So we really give you everything you need to be successful in this move and we give you back to that choice word, right? We give you the opportunity to choose and to migrate at the speed that works for you. >>So that's simplicity. That streamlining. I gotta ask you the last question here in our last couple of minutes. Come on, what's the integration process been like? as we said the acquisition just a couple of months in. But talk to me about that integration process. What that's been like? >>Yeah, absolutely. So as I mentioned earlier, the process has been very smooth so far, so two months in and it's largely driven by the common set of culture and core values that exists between our two companies. And so uh you know, from a product standpoint, we've been working hand in hand because I mentioned earlier, we were partners are working hand in hand on accelerating the road map the joint roadmap that we have here uh from a go to market perspective teams are well integrated. We are going to be rolling out the rolling out the bundle and we're gonna be rolling out additional uh options for our customers. We've also publicly announced that will be open sourcing uh red hat A. C. S. Uh formerly known as Stock Rock. So stay tuned for further news and that announcement. And, and so you know, uh, again two months and everybody's been super collaborative. Super helpful, super welcoming. And the team is the well settled and we're looking forward to now focusing on our primary objective is just to make sure that our customers are successful. >>Absolutely. That customer focus is absolutely critical. But also so is the employee experience. And it sounds like we both talked about the ethos and the and the core value alignment. They're probably being pretty critical to doing an integration during a very challenging time globally. I appreciate both of you joining me on the program today, sharing what's going on stack rocks now asks the opportunities for customers to have that built in cuBA and the security. Thanks so much for your time. >>Thank you. Thank >>you for Camel shaw and Kirsten newcomer. I'm lisa martin. You're watching the cubes coverage of Red Hat Summit, The virtual experience. Mhm

(upbeat music) >> Hello, and welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of Red Hat Summit 2021 Virtual. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. We got a great guest here, Raymond Kok, Senior Vice President Cloud Application Solutions at Siemens Digital Industry Software. Raymond, thanks for remoting in with theCUBE Virtual all the way from the Netherlands. Great to see you. We're in Palo Alto, California. Great to see you. >> All right, thanks for having me. >> Love the international culture of the vibe with virtual, one of the benefits of having remote, which we were in person, but soon the pandemics coming around the corner, but great to see you. Let's get started, let's get into the Digital Industry Software Group that you're involved in, your relationship with Red Hat. But first let's start with, if you could take a minute to give us a brief overview of Siemens and your role there. >> Yeah, so first of all, let me talk a little bit about Siemens because Siemens is obviously a big company. So as you already announced, I'm part of Siemens Digital Industries Software. So Digital Industries is actually the vision at Siemens that is really focused on how to help companies to become a digital enterprise. And so as part of this IoT (faintly speaking) Industrial Internet of Things is obviously an important element of that. And so if you look at my role at Siemens, is really to be the business lead for the cloud part of IoT. And so what I mean with that is specifically a product line called MindSphere. And so Siemens, like I said, is looking at the overall digital transformation of customers, relay product landscape but also how we can support them with new technologies and IoT is very much part of that. >> One of the benefits of doing theCUBE interviews over the years and having the team that we have in the media side, we get to see things early. Industrial IoT, we've been blogging about and reporting for a couple of years now, now it's hard. Because with the pandemic, you still need things to run. And so Industrial IoT, not withstanding, there's still the other edges like consumer edge and other devices, but Industrial IoT is getting all the focus because of security and also because of just critical operations, critical infrastructure and for business and public sector, private sector, everything. This is a huge area. Could you talk about your strategy around Industrial IoT and specifically how you guys are using this analytics, MindSphere as you mentioned, what is that about? How does that help me if I'm a manufacturing organization? >> Yeah, so first of all, maybe it's good to clarify what we mean with Industrial IoT, because there's IoT and there's Industrial IoT. So, when people typically talk about Industrial IoT, it's really three main areas. It's smart grid. So it's really around IoT for energy management and energy usage. There is smart cities. So this is really IoT for smart buildings but also any kind of infrastructure that goes with smart cities. And then the last one is smart factories. And so, we typically, when we say Industrial IoT, we have clients that cover the three main areas that I just mentioned. And so really what it is about is to take advantage of data, right? So IoT is really about how you take advantage of data and how do you actually get insights from this data to run your business better? So maybe to give a specific example, if you look at one of our major customers, like for example, Coke Hellenic, and they just actually presented that (mumbles) last week. They are trying to use IoT to advance how they actually operate the bottling lines of the factories. And so it's really above operational excellence. So, meaning how to get more trooper, how to get more efficiency into how they do production. But in many cases, John, it's also about energy management because data is not just about, okay, operational excellence but also surrounding topics like, how can I better preserve energy as I produce something? And so, yeah. So in many cases, IoT is all about data, getting next levels of insight from the data and then put that to a particular use. So this can be answering the quality of production, getting better performance of your equipment, getting a better use of your equipment when it comes to energy consumption. So there are many use cases typically related to Industrial IoT. >> Yeah, and you got to love the industrial definition to the way you laid it out. That's critical infrastructure and emerging infrastructure and plant and equipment, all those things. But it's also a proxy for (faintly speaking) for business. So this kind of brings me to the kind of connecting the dots. If you don't mind, I'll jump to the convergence question I'd love to bring up, which is the convergence of IT, Information Technology and Operational Technology, OT, which has been discussed before, but you talked about culture clashes, different cultures. Also systems are different, purpose-built, potentially on one side, but they've got to come together, okay? These are both very important software pieces to the puzzle on the platform. How do you see that evolving? What's your take on resolving this dilemma of the priorities, of innovation and security and openness? What's your take on this? >> (Faintly speaking) Topic, John, because the reality is that OT has to ITinice and IT has to OTinice I guess, when we talk about IoT, right? So I think that's why at Siemens, we have kind of a unique viewpoint because Siemens looks at both the OT side of the world through, for example the context of discrete, the process industries look at the automation part of it, so meaning the actual operational automation and then obviously only equipment that comes with it, which is really typically an OT conversation. Then if you look at my business unit, so, Siemens Digital Industries Software, we look at it really from an IT point of view, and so how can we help these customers to become a digital enterprise? And so at Siemens, we're kind of bringing these two views together. And then to your point, we're trying to make the integration as seamless as possible. And to your point actually, it includes also making sure that we actually drive the standards that are going to make this enable, that are going to make this possible, can be open standards like OPC UA, for example, when you look at discrete manufacturing, but can also be standardizing on certain technologies, right? And so what we're seeing is that, for example, back to my word, talking is really Kubernetes and kind of the container technology that is out there, standard technology is helping this conversation as well. >> Yeah, the integration piece, that's the Kubernetes, containers and micro services. These are bringing cloud native integration points. And that's really going to be key, I'm going to get that in a second, but I want to come back to the MindSphere Analytics piece because data is critical as you mentioned. So integration data security and observability means security, monitoring all these things are evolving. You guys earlier this year, announced you expanding this MindSphere reach in partnership with IBM and Red Hat, so consumers could run on on-prem and cloud. That's the topic of this event. The main theme at Red Hat Summit this year is clearly hybrid cloud, in a distributed kind of computing paradigm which we all love. This is what we're talking about here. We're talking about distributed computing edge, Core Cloud. Why is this important for Siemens and your customers? Why did you decide to work with IBM and Red Hat on this initiative? >> Yeah, it kind of was already somewhat in your question, meaning that if we work with our customers, really the cloud conversation that we have with them is a hybrid cloud conversation. And what we mean with that is, yes, there're elements of public clouds, but especially when you talk about critical factory operations, many of these workloads that we're talking about are actually very close to the shop floor or are at least some what near, and therefore any kind of large enterprise OEM that we work with, so whether it's an automotive OEM, whether it's an aerospace and defense OEM, they all have a hybrid cloud strategy. And so what is interesting about IoT is that this is where hybrid cloud kind of comes together. It kind of goes back to your previous question about IT and OT coming together. As you can imagine OT has always been very on-premise because it's near real time critical factory operations. IT obviously much more comfortable with public cloud. So we're trying to bring this together and therefore, many of these conversations that we have with large enterprise OEMs is really a hybrid cloud conversation. So specifically, what we're doing here together with Red Hat is to enable exactly that. So meaning that we can take MindSphere or solution for IoT Analytics, we can bring that not just to a public cloud or make that available as a public cloud solution, but also on-premise private clouds. And I think it's very interesting because it opens a conversation that allows people to really now start talking about value as opposed to being worried about, okay, where is my data going? Is it secure? Is it actually going to be available when I need it for factory operations? So, yeah, I'm pretty excited about this work that we're doing together, because again, it's about value, making sure that our customers actually can fit what we do at Siemens into a landscape that they feel comfortable with. >> It feels to me, I may be a little bit old school but I feel like this is the innovation that we saw in the eighties and nineties as networks got more expansive and inter networking happened and you start to see that life blood of the action and the value get enabled. And I think your point about hybrid and operating around the environment is critical, because this brings up new challenges and new opportunities. For instance, you don't need to bolt on a caching layer to manage a slow database or you can get real time, and you can get better performance and compute. You don't need to move the data around. So, bringing compute and resource and scale to these edges when they need it, focuses more on the solution architect less on putting point technologies in place to solve. >> Yeah, exactly. Maybe to chime in on that, I think what is also interesting is that it allows the customers to optimize where to best place the workloads that they care about. And so maybe to make that a bit more specific, if you think about a use case like energy management. So let's say that I have a production line, 1500 assets that are consuming energy. If you then think about the data that is involved in analytics, you can imagine that if I start sending all this data to public cloud, maybe, maybe not the most efficient setup, because a first level of filtering and analytics, I can very much close do or do that close to a 2D equipment. And then when I get to aggregation of data, and some further filtering to figure out, okay, what is really happening at the line level? What is really happening at a particular production area level? Again, I think you can do that prior to actually sending some of this data to the cloud, meaning public cloud. Where the public cloud becomes interesting is when you want to aggregate, for example across multiple manufacturing facilities. Now you want to look at the KPIs of one factory versus another, you want to aggregate across multiple factories, you want to figure out, okay, why are certain trends happening just in this factory and it's better in this one? But I think that's why, what we're seeing with clients is that they're expecting from us a layered architecture and to your point, the most efficient way of actually dealing with their use cases across the infrastructure that is available to them. So yeah, if you look at Siemens, we're trying to kind of carefully think about all these layers from fields to edge, to on-premise private cloud, to public clouds, and then make sure that along the way each layer has value and that it's there for a purpose and for a real reason, right? And not just for the sake of having it. >> Yeah, or being limited by the architecture that you're stuck with, constrained by the architecture by what the solutions are. You're saying, the script is flipped upside down where you can optimize your business, which by the way will flow up more data to evaluate. So there's a new post analysis mode of post configuration, and you could align your resources best way you see fit to maximize your business model. This is the beautiful thing about this distributed edge concept is the software enablement of the business is there. So the data is critical. So, as more controlled data comes in, it's not just set it up and watch it run. Yeah, there's automation involved in a lot of software but you're getting new data coming in. If you have this new observation space, of new horizontally scalable data, this new data coming in. >> Yeah, exactly, exactly. And I think you said a key point there. We don't want our architecture to constrain. I guess, what kind of value the customer can actually get out of these use cases and therefore, I think it's kind of exciting that in this ecosystem, especially also the interplay between Red Hat and Siemens, that we kind of take it one step further and think about, okay, what is actually truly the most optimal way for customers to go do this? And that we've formed these kinds of partnerships to really help the customer even take another step forward. So I think it's pretty, pretty nice. >> Well, Raymond, I really appreciate it. That's a masterclass, a commentary, nice gems you're dropping here on theCUBE, I appreciate it. The way I look at it, I'd love to get your final reaction to kind of the world we're living in. Just my take on it is that, we have a new operating system of business, and we're kind of getting at, is that you guys now can have an operating model for your customers and software. It's not just another (faintly speaking) For a server and the server is the business, it's the world now. >> Yeah, exactly. And I think from my point of view, I think it's exciting to see us again in this world of complex technology always to find new ways to help the customer to kind of advance their use cases, right? Because the imperatives that, for example discreet manufacturing doesn't really change. They've been there for many, many years. And I think for us to be able to bring out technology closer together and then solve, and I do use use cases in an even more efficient way. I think that's pretty interesting. And yeah, so I see good things and I think ultimately IoT, I think those that can actually bring real value are going to be able to deal like we just talked about, the hybrid scenarios, but the people that are going to matter is the people that can bring the most insights out of this data, right? Because what I always say about IoT is, it's yet more a messy data. So it's only worth actually collecting all this data if you actually get next to levels and new levels of insight from it. And I think, yeah, it has to kind of fit that kind of a mantra, and I think together that we're really trying to figure that out, so- >> I know some people as well would agree with that statement, I do as well, but the other side of that question is, if you don't architect the edge properly or the IoT edge, the data costs could be compelling. You could get hit with some charges because most people have been burned by the idea of moving data around versus say, moving compute. So, back to this value, where's the edge? What're you optimizing for? That's kind of the big question. How do you react to that when someone says, Raymond, what should I be optimizing for as I lay out my architecture for the core to edge, data center cloud edge scenario, what am I optimizing for? >> Yeah, I think you kind of work backwards from what you're trying to achieve. I think it may sound kind of obvious, but quite often I get in discussions with customers where we first start talking technology, obviously it's exciting. I'll be kind of attacking myself. So it's exciting to talk about technology but they forget to start from, okay, what's the return of the invest and what's the use case, right? And so, what are we trying to solve? Who is trying to benefit from it? And what benefit are they looking for? And then if you carefully work backwards from there, you will actually see that as we just talk about data and insights into data are in many cases, leading some elements of the value that a particular person is looking for. And then working backwards from there, you will actually figure out that back to the layer of discussion that we just had, this data doesn't have to be available at every level, right? Every layer adds some value, and so therefore you have to have kind of an open discussion and that's meaning an open discussion about what layers to use. And that's why at Siemens, we kind of follow that approach. So meaning that we work backwards from the use case, then we think about, okay, what is most appropriate at the field and control level? Then what to your point, is the most appropriate at the edge level? Then what is the most appropriate at the cloud level? And then from there, you actually figure out, okay, where do I deploy? What kind of acquisition of data? What kind of insights am I interested in at that level? And then basically, what kind of machine learning am I going to deploy there? And then work all the way from there. And it seems to work. And that's why to your point, it's all about making sure that at every level data is there for a reason and you process it for a reason, because otherwise it's just acknowledging it, interesting still, but it doesn't have any value, right? >> Awesome. Raymond, great insight there. And this is all about engineering. You guys are doing a great job. Engineering, the solutions, this is DevOps, DevSecOps, it's some hybrid cloud, really bringing those that value to the edge, industrial edge. Congratulations for all the great work. Raymond Kok, Senior Vice President, Cloud Application Solutions at Siemens Digital Industries Software. Thanks for coming on theCUBE. >> Okay, yeah. Thanks for having me. >> Okay. >> Thank you. >> I'm John Furrier with theCUBE, Red Hat Summit 2021 Virtual. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>>Mhm Yes. Hello and welcome back to the cubes coverage of red hat summit 2021 virtual. I'm john for your host of the cube we're here with Hillary Hunter, the VP and CTO and IBM fellow of IBM cloud at IBM. Hillary, Great to see you welcome back, You're no stranger to us in the cube your dentist few times. Thanks for coming on. >>Thanks so much for having me back. Great to talk more today >>I believe I B M is the premier sponsor for red hat summit this year. No, I mean I think they're somewhat interested in what's happening. >>Yeah, you know, somebody is such a great event for us because it brings together clients that, you know, we work together with red head on and gives us a chance to really talk about that overall journey to cloud and everything that we offer around cloud and cloud adoption um, and around redheads capabilities as well. So we look forward to the summit every year for sure. >>You know, the new IBM red hat relationship obviously pretty tight and successful seeing the early formations and customer attraction and just kind of the momentum, I'll never forget that Red hat something was in SAN Francisco. I sat down with Arvin at that time, uh, Red hat was not part of IBM and it was interesting. He was so tied into cloud native. It was almost as if he was dry running the acquisition, which he announced just moments later after that. But you can see the balance. The Ceo at IBM really totally sees the cloud. He sees that experience. He sees the customer impact. This has been an interesting year, especially with Covid and with the combination of red hat and IBM, this cloud priority for IT leaders is more important than ever before. What's your, what's your take on this? Because clearly you guys are all in on cloud, but not what people think, what's your, what's your view on this? >>Yeah. You know, from, from the perspective of those that are kind of data oriented IBM Institute for Business Value, did lots of studies over the last year, you know, saying that over 60% of leaders feel, you know, increased urgency to get to the cloud, um they're intending to accelerate their program to the cloud, but I think, you know, just even as consumers where each very conscious that our digital behaviors have changed a lot in the last year and we see that in our enterprise client base where um everything from, you know, a bank, we work that that that had to stand up their countries equivalent of the payroll protection program in a matter of weeks, which is just kind of unheard of to do something that robust that quickly or um, you know, retail obviously dealing with major changes, manufacturing, dealing with major changes and all consumers wanting to consume things on an app basis and such, not going into brick and mortar stores and such. And so everything has changed and months, I would say have sort of timeframes of months have been the norm instead of years for um, taking applications forward and modernizing them. And so this journey to cloud has compressed, It's accelerated. And as one client I spoke with said, uh, in the midst of last year, you know, it is existential that I get to cloud with urgency and I think That's been that has been the theme of 2020 and now also 2021. And so it is, it is the core technology for moving faster and dealing with all the change that we're all experiencing. >>That's just so right on point. But I got I want to ask you because this is the key trend enterprises are now realizing that cloud native architecture is based on open source specifically is a key architectural first principle now. >>Yeah. >>What's your, what, what would you say to the folks out there who were listening to this and watching this video, Who were out in the enterprise going, hey, that's a good call. I'm glad I did it. So I don't have any cognitive dissidence or I better get there faster. >>Yeah. You know, open source is such an important part of this conversation because I always say that open source moves at the rate and pays a global innovation, which is kind of a cute phrase that I really don't mean it in anyways, cute. It really is the case that the purpose of open sources for people globally to be contributing. And there's been innovation on everything from climate change to you know, musical applications to um things that are the fundamentals of major enterprise mission critical workloads that have happened is everyone is adopting cloud and open source faster. And so I think that, you know this choice to be on open source is a choice really, you know, to move at the pace of global innovation. It's a choice too um leverage capabilities that are portable and it's a choice to have flexibility in deployment because where everyone's I. T is deployed has also changed. And the balance of sort of where people need the cloud to kind of come to life and be has also changed as everyone's going through this period of significant change. >>That's awesome. IBM like Red has been a long supporter and has a history of supporting open source projects from Lenox to kubernetes. You guys, I think put a billion dollars in Lenox way back when it first started. Really power that movement. That's going back into the history books there. So how are you guys all collaborating today to advance the open source solutions for clients? >>Yeah, we remain very heavily invested in open source communities and invested in work jointly with Red Hat. Um you know, we enabled the technology known as um uh Rackham the short name for the Red Hat advanced cluster management software, um you know, in this last year, um and so, you know, provided that capability um to to become the basis of that that product. So we continue to, you know, move major projects into open source and we continue to encourage external innovators as well to create new capabilities. And open source are called for code initiatives for developers as an example, um have had specific programs around um uh social justice and racial issues. Um we have a new call for code out encouraging open source projects around climate change and sustainable agriculture and all those kind of topics and so everything from you know, topics with developers to core product portfolio for us. Um We have a very uh very firm commitment in an ongoing sustained contribution on an open source basis. >>I think that's important. Just to call out just to kind of take a little sidebar here. Um you guys really have a strong mission driven culture at IBM want to give you props for that. Just take a minute to say, Congratulations call for code incredible initiative. You guys do a great job. So congratulations on that. Appreciate. >>Thank you. Thank you. >>Um as a sponsor of Red Hat Summit this year, I am sponsoring the zone Read at um you have you have two sessions that you're hosting, Could you talk about what's going on? >>Yeah, the the two sessions, so one that I'm hosting is around um getting what we call 2.5 x value out of your cloud journey. Um and really looking at kind of how we're working with clients from the start of the journey of considering cloud through to actually deploying and managing environments and operating model on the cloud um and where we can extract greater value and then another session um that I'm doing with Roger Primo, our senior vice President for strategy at IBM We're talking about lessons and clouded option from the Fortune 500, so we're talking there about coca cola european bottling partners, about lumen technologies um and um also about wonderman Thompson, um and what they're doing with us with clouds, so kind of two sessions, kind of one talking a sort of a chalkboard style um A little bit of an informal conversation about what is value meaning cloud or what are we trying to get out of it together? Um And then a session with roger really kind of focused on enterprise use cases and real stories of cloud adoption. >>Alright so bottom line what's going to be in the sessions, why should I attend? What's the yeah >>so you know honest honestly I think that there's kind of this um there's this great hunger I would say in the industry right now to ascertain value um and in all I. T. Decision making, that's the key question right? Um not just go to the cloud because everyone's going to the cloud or not just adopt you know open source technologies because it's you know something that someone said to do, but what value are we going to get out of it? And then how do we have an intentional conversation about cloud architecture? How do we think about managing across environments in a consistent way? Um how do we think about extracting value in that journey of application, modernization, um and how do we structure and plan that in a way? Um that results in value to the business at the end of the day, because this notion of digital transformation is really what's underlying it. You want a different business outcome at the end of the day and the decisions that you take in your cloud journey picking. Um and open hybrid, multi cloud architecture leveraging technologies like IBM cloud satellite to have a consistent control plan across your environments, um leveraging particular programs that we have around security and compliance to accelerate the journey for regulated industries etcetera. Taking intentional decisions that are relevant to your industry that enable future flexibility and then enable a broad ecosystem of content, for example, through red hat marketplace, all the capabilities and content that deploy onto open shift, et cetera. Those are core foundational decisions that then unlock that value in the cloud journey and really result in a successful cloud experience and not just I kind of tried it and I did or didn't get out of it what I was expecting. So that's really what, you know, we talk about in these in these two sessions, um and walk through um in the second session than, you know, some client use cases of, of different levels and stages in that cloud journey, some really core enterprise capabilities and then Greenfield whitespace completely new capabilities and cloud can address that full spectrum. >>That's exciting not to get all nerdy for a second here, But you know, you bring up cloud architecture, hybrid cloud architecture and correct me if I'm wrong if you're going to address it because I think this is what I'm reporting and hearing in the industry against the killer problem everyone's trying to solve is you mentioned, um, data, you mentioned control playing for data, you mentioned security. These are like horizontally scalable operating model concepts. So if you think about an operating system, this is this is the architecture that becomes the cloud model hybrid model because it's not just public cloud cloud native or being born in the cloud. Like a startup. The integration of operating at scale is a distributed computing model. So you have an operating system concept with some systems engineering. Yeah, it sounds like a computer to me, right. It sounds like a mainframe. Sounds like something like that where you're thinking about not just software but operating model is, am I getting that right? Because this is like fundamental. >>Yeah, it's so fundamental. And I think it's a great analogy, right? I think it's um you know, everyone has kind of, their different description of what cloud is, what constitutes cloud and all that kind of thing, but I think it's great to think of it as a system, it's a system for computing and what we're trying to do with cloud, what we're trying to do with kubernetes is to orchestrate a bunch of, you know, computing in a consistent way, as, you know, other functions within a single server do. Um What we're trying to do with open shift is, you know, to enable um clients to consume things in a consistent way across many different environments. Again, that's the same sort of function um conceptually as, you know, an operating system or something like that is supposed to provide is to have a platform fundamentally, I think the word platform is important, right? Have a platform that's consistent across many environments and enables people to be productive in all those environments where they need to be doing their computing. >>We were talking before we came on camera about cloud history and we were kind of riffing back and forth around, oh yeah, five years ago or six years ago was all the conversations go to the cloud now, it's like serious conscience around the maturity of cloud and how to operate that scale in the cloud, which is complex, it's complex system and you have complexity around system complexity and novelty complexity, so you have kind of all these new things happening. So I want to ask you because you're an IBM fellow and you're on the cloud side at IBM with all this red hat goodness you've got going on, Can you give us a preview of the maturity model that you see the IBM season, that red hats doing so that these architectures can be consistent across the platforms, because you've got def sec ops, you've got all these new things, you've got security and data at scale, it's not that obviously it's not easy, but it has to be easier. What's what's the preview of the maturity model? >>Yeah, you know, it really is about kind of a one plus one equals three conversation because red hats approach to provide a consistent platform across different environments in terms of Lennox and Kubernetes and the open shift platform um enables that first conversation about consistency and maturity um in many cases comes from consistency, being able to have standards and consistency and deployment across different environments leads to efficiency. Um But then IBM odds on that, you know, a set of conversations also around data governance, um consistency of data, cataloguing data management across environments, machine learning and ai right bringing in A. I. For I. T. Operations, helping you be more efficient to diagnose problems in the IT environment, other things like that. And then, you know, in addition, you know, automation ultimately right when we're talking about F. R. I. T. Ops, but also automation which begins down at the open shift level, you know with use of answerable and other things like that and extends them up into automation and monitoring of the environment and the workloads and other things like that. And so it really is a set of unlocking value through increasing amounts of insight, consistency across environments, layering that up into the data layer. Um And then overall being able to do that, you know efficiently um and and in a consistent way across the different environments, you know, where cloud needs to be deployed in order to be most effective, >>You know, David Hunt and I always talk about IBM and all the years we've been covering with the Cube, I mean we've pretty much been to every IBM events since the Cube was founded and we're on our 11th year now watching the progression, you guys have so much expertise in so many different verticals, just a history and the expertise and the knowledge and the people. They're so smart. Um I have to ask you how you evolved your portfolio with the cloud now um as it's gone through, as we are in the 2021 having these mature conversations around, you know, full integration, large scale enterprise deployments, Critical Mission Mission Critical Applications, critical infrastructure, data, cybersecurity, global scale. How are you evolve your portfolio to better support your clients in this new environment? >>Yeah, there's a lot in there and you hit a lot of the keywords already. Thank you. But but I think that you know um we have oriented our portfolio is such that all of our systems support Red hat um and open shift, um our cloud, we have redhead open shift as a managed service and kubernetes is at the core of what we're doing as a cloud provider and achieving our own operational efficiencies um from the perspective of our software portfolio, our core products are delivered in the form of what we refer to as cloud packs on open shift and therefore deploy across all these different environments where open shift is supported, um products available through Red hat marketplace, you know, which facilitates the billing and purchasing an acquisition and installation of anything within the red hat ecosystem. And I think, you know, for us this is also then become also a journey about operational efficiency. We're working with many of our clients is we're kind of chatting about before about their cloud operating model, about their transformation um and ultimately in many cases about consumption of cloud as a service. Um and so um as we, you know, extend our own cloud capabilities, you know, out into other environment through distributed cloud program, what we refer to as as IBM cloud satellite, you know, that enables consistent and secure deployment of cloud um into any environment um where someone needs, you know, cloud to be operated. Um And that operating model conversation with our clients, you know, has to do with their own open shift environments that has to do with their software from IBM, it has to do their cloud services. And we're really ultimately looking to partner with clients to find efficiency in each stage of that journey and application modernization in deployment and then in getting consistency across all their environments, leveraging everything from uh the red hat, you know, ACM capabilities for cluster management up through a i for beauty shops and automation and use of a common console across services. And so it's an exciting time because we've been able to align our portfolio, get consistency and delivery of the red half capabilities across our full portfolio and then enable clients to progress to really efficient consumption of cloud. >>That's awesome. Great stuff there. I got to ask you the question that's on probably your customers minds. They say, okay, Hillary, you got me sold me on this. I get what's going on, I just gotta go faster. How do I advance my hybrid cloud model faster? What are you gonna do for me? What do you have within the red hat world and IBM world? How are you gonna make me go faster? That's in high quality way? >>Yeah. You know, we often like to start with an assessment of the application landscape because you move faster by moving strategically, right? So assessing applications and the opportunity to move most quickly into a cloud model, um, what to containerized first, what to invest in lift and shift perspective, etcetera. So we we help people look at um what is strategic to move and where the return on investment will be the greatest. We help them also with migrations, Right? So we can help jump in with additional skills and establish a cloud center of competency and other things like that. That can help them move faster as well as move faster with us. And I think ultimately choosing the right portfolio for what is defined as cloud is so important, having uh, an open based architecture and cloud deployment choice is so important so that you don't get stuck in where you made some of your initial decisions. And so I think those are kind of the three core components to how we're helping our clients move as quickly as possible and at the rate and pace that the current climate frankly demands of everyone. >>You know, I was joking with a friend the other night about databases and how generations you have an argument about what is it database, what's it used for. And then when you kind of get to that argument, all agree. Then a new database comes along and then it's for different functions. Just the growth in the internet and computing. Same with cloud, you kind of see a parallel thing where it's like debate, what is cloud? Why does he even exist? People have different definitions. That was, you know, I mean a decade or so ago. And then now we're at almost another point where it's again another read definition of, okay, what's next for cloud? It's almost like an inflection point here again. So with that I got to ask you as a fellow and IBM VP and Cto, what is the IBM cloud because if I'm going to have a discussion with IBM at the center of it, what does it mean to me? That's what people would like to know. How do you respond to that? >>Yeah. You know, I think two things I think number one to the, to the question of accelerating people's journeys to the cloud, we are very focused within the IBM cloud business um on our industry specific programs on our work with our traditional enterprise client base and regulated industries, things like what we're doing in cloud for financial services, where we're taking cloud, um and not just doing some sort of marketing but doing technology, which contextualize is cloud to tackle the difficult problems of those industries. So financial services, telco uh et cetera. And so I think that's really about next generation cloud, right? Not cloud, just for oh, I'm consuming some sauce, and so it's going to be in the cloud. Um but SAS and I SV capabilities and an organization's own capabilities delivered in a way appropriate to their industry in in a way that enables them to consume cloud faster. And I think along those lines then kind of second thing of, you know, whereas cloud headed the conversation in the industry around confidential computing, I think is increasingly important. Um It's an area that we've invested now for several generations of technology capability, confidential computing means being able to operate even in a cloud environment where there are others around um but still have complete privacy and authority over what you're doing. And that extra degree of protection is so important right now. It's such a critical conversation um with all of our clients. Obviously those in things like, you know, digital assets, custody or healthcare records or other things like that are very concerned and focused about data privacy and protection. And these technologies are obvious to them in many cases that yes, they should take that extra step and leverage confidential computing and additional data protection. But really confidential computing we're seeing growing as a topic zero trust other models like that because everyone wants to know that not only are they moving faster because they're moving to cloud, but they're doing so in a way that is without any compromise in their total security, um and their data protection on behalf of their clients. So it's exciting times. >>So it's so exciting just to think about the possibilities because trust more than ever now, we're on a global society, whether it's cyber security or personal interactions to data signing off on code, what's the mutability of it? I mean, it's a complete interplay of all the fun things of uh of the technology kind of coming together. >>Absolutely, yeah. There is so much coming together and confidential computing and realizing it has been a decade long journey for us. Right? We brought our first products actually into cloud in 2019, but its hardware, it's software, it services. It's a lot of different things coming together. Um but we've been able to bring them together, bring them together at enterprise scale able to run entire databases and large workloads and you know um pharmaceutical record system for Germany and customer records for daimler and um you know what we're doing with banks globally etcetera and so you know it's it's wonderful to see all of that work from our research division and our developers and our cloud teams kind of come together and come to fruition and and really be real and be product sizable. So it's it's very exciting times and it's it's a conversation that I think I encourage everyone to learn a little bit more about confidential computing. >>Hillary hunter. Thank you for coming on the cube. Vice President CTO and IBM fellow which is a big distinction at IBM. Congratulations and thanks for coming on the Cuban sharing your insight. Always a pleasure to have you on an expert always. Great conversation. Thanks for coming on. >>Thanks so much for having me. It was a pleasure. >>Okay, so cubes coverage of red Hat Summit 21 of course, IBM think is right around the corner as well. So that's gonna be another great event as well. I'm john Feehery, a host of the cube bringing all the action. Thanks for watching. Yeah.

>>Mhm Yes. Hello. Welcome back to the cubes coverage of red hat summit 2021 Virtual. I'm john for your host of the cube we're here with Roberto Pellegrini, head of architecture and digital ai services from stam he's remote promoting in from Milan Italy Roberto. Great to see you. Thanks for joining us on the cube. >>Great to see you too john. Thanks for having me here. >>Love the virtual events. We can bring people in from all around the world. I love the virtual. I mean it's one of the trade us for not being in person as we can still get you in. Thanks for coming on. Before we get started. I want to dig into the digital architecture of what you guys are doing. Very compelling in a hybrid cloud. It's got you got all the things going on which I like. But before we start, can you provide a short overview of Snam who are your customers? What is your company's focus and what's your role there? >>Sure. So his name is one of the worst leading energy infrastructure operators. And we basically beat the energy infrastructures and offering the way the services our mission is to guide the evolution of the energy sector and leave the energy transition to a low carbon future. And as you can see in our last investment plan, we declared our net zero-carbon objective to bridge by 2040. This is why we basically are investing a lot in uh, technology in renovating our technology stack in order to provide our business line with the most innovative sustainable energy network, thanks to which we are already guaranteeing stable supplies to europe of natural gas. >>Love your title. Love the fact you've got the ai piece in there. Um, what about specifically is your role? What do you oversee? >>I'm responsible for architecture, digital and artificial intelligence services. That basically means that uh, with with my team and my extended team of the digital technology department are designing the entire technology stack for islam. And I'm specifically focusing more on developing intelligent than usable services for our business lines >>awesome. You guys were there, it's nam have transformed a lot the stack. That's cool. When you get into that, you redesign your applications map. Right? So it's really edge to cloud now. Edge up to the cloud. What were the business drivers and the objectives to reach that goal? Because that's really a great use case. I mean you got the edge to deal with intelligent, you got industrial, global business drivers and objectives. >>Yeah. Our main business drivers has always been to to increase the effectiveness of our processes and business lines so bear support the decision of our internal line of business. And we soon discover that we need a more data in order to do that. And we structure very extensive of your program. But those data provide information about internal states of our assets because they're coming from the census and we thought what about the environment in which our assets are located. So uh following up on that we integrated data coming from remote sensing technologies. So think about drones and satellites. Major data and we soon discover that we needed to renew and extend our technology stack from edge to cloud as you said. And to be the scalable that the platform in order to process this new level of uh data this way we think we will be able to enter the new volume of data that we predict. It will be 100 times what we currently manage and efficiently use AI and machine learning to the riding side from this new scale and complexity. So we're talking about big data >>repairs. I gotta ask you could you take a minute to describe your transformation journey you guys went through and how red hat helped you guys execute the digital transformation? >>Yeah we basically started working in 2018. We read up to set up our 12 grade in a snap. We basically needed to decide what to scale what you lift and shift what we factor in order to move our application to a modern architectural stack. And right up to us with this uh we use open ship for our container orchestration platform and from this we're developing our new application act. Then in 2019 we decided to accelerate the moving of our application workloads. We started moving 10-20 of our work clothes on open shift. And since then most of our new software project Islam, a club native and developed on open shifts. We're still in the process of leveraging modern architecture. So microservices based and using our continual construction platform and other software as a service platform in order to complete the modernization of our application that And we are targeting 2023 2024 to complete the entire process but as you know, is an ever changing landscape. So you basically never complete such a task in some way. >>Do you see red hat technology helping stem in its ecosystem for energy efficiency and aiming for low carbon emissions? >>I think that open ship provide provide us with the right level of flexibility and agility to move at the speed of our new businesses. That's one way to look at the quest and the other one. Uh huh. I think it would be in terms of energy efficiency and the carbon footprint that our application workloads generate. And I think that uh in that in that respect it could happen in the mid to long term, probably so it will be in proportion to the workloads. We will be able to re factor as purely reactive so as non blocking apps. This probably in fact for the same business service could improve the effective resource consumption, so indirectly saving energy and CO two, >>you know, I love this conversation and I know you're in Italy and wish we could be in person but I'm glad to get you on because you guys are kind of an example of the main theme at the conference this year, which is an edge, you know, intelligent edge and IOT, but you know, I O T has been around for a while and we've talked about it before, but now with the cloud and connecting to the cloud, that's a huge topic here at red hat summit 2021 you guys are well versed on the call O. T. Technology operational technologies and what's interesting is kubernetes and containerized orchestration all help operators, operations people. So you have this ot tight integration where the operational technology, old school technology people and the stack and the people in the disciplines are meeting the old I. T. And creating a new thing. So I have to ask you, what are these, what's that world like what are some of the use cases that you're working on and you're planning to deploy? >>Yeah. Yeah. Yeah exactly. It's exactly like that name has a long ot history as you said. So right now we have a complex brownfield uh, situation for our edges and gateways on the field. There are various technical components that resigns on the field. You must consider that Italian network, the Italian Transportation Network has more than 34,000 km of pipeline and differently sides of plants across the country. So we have several already several use cases currently running on our data centers that could benefit we think from distributed processing at the edge. Think about for example physical security. So just to give you an example privacy preserving local video processing for anomaly detection done at the edge, it's much more effective in our opinion. Poor hierarchical processing for data intensive task that involves field data so that you can process the data coming from the field at different level and take to the central data center only was needed. And we're also working on the usual problem there is with with the Widow Tea with the operation of the countries that is standardization. So we have many exogenous components and communication protocol there and you know without a proper rieti stack gathering and normalizing the data for a higher level process could become cumbersome. So security is also is also a relevant topic because it is usually preserve and the physical and natural layer and we we think that we can introduce variety pre main improvements about this. We're expanding the level of cybersec to the food technologists act, bringing modern internet security standard to the edge. We're pushing continue realization to the edge, being able to orchestrate our work clothes from data centers to the cloud. And we think that we this will provide us with a high level of flexibility and a better exploitation of the geographical distribution of our data. And last but not least we're standardizing our gateways and edges and this will help us streamline the message of the transfer conversion and normalization uh of the data we will receive from the field >>awesome. I gotta, I gotta ask for such a great job on the edge. I think that's a great vision. Uh building insecurity, it's important having that edge intelligent is really well done. Congratulations. Love the vision. I gotta ask you, what's your future plans for um Snam technology journey as a whole. What's your vision? What's your next step? >>So well, what we would like to focus on uh in the coming years is how to best leverage the average cloud environment we currently set up. So right now we have an average cloud environment with the data center and one cloud tenant and having our poor clothes running on open ship would make it easier for us to leverage the offering of different club providers and of course to best exploit what we currently have on our tenants. Second one is find the best way to leverage IOT. So as I said before, our focus in the coming years will be to complete our IOT foundation, rolling out our edges are gateways and put our new unified opposition system to work. And this will provide the computational backbone of our intelligent investments. And finally, uh and this is a less objective that is will be built on top of the other two. We must find different ways and export different ways to leverage data and artificial intelligence. So we need to exploit our data uh in order to generate insight for our business lines. Need to the scale of our new data streams, artificial intelligence machine learning, we think will be ubiquitous in our applications right now. We're already using it but not at the scale uh that the new data streams uh well we'll need and most of the algorithms are working on data that are apart from legacy system and scare the system. So they are specifically created for each project. We're about to begin an exciting data journey where everything will reside on a unified data platform and our data scientists, our data analyst in the business lines will be able to derive value from them >>awesome. You know, you guys are great customer use case. I love the real operational impact. I talked with a lot of other practitioners and end user enterprises and I get the same question and I got the statement. They say actually security needs to be built in, but the challenges and where they want to, what they want to do. And I want to get your thoughts on this. If you don't mind commenting, they all say, I want to run cloud native applications, cloud native applications from my data center to the cloud and then out to the edge and with this as a distributed platform, one operation set, whether it's O T I T I want to make that, that's my endgame. In the short term, I get there fast. So I gotta ask you for those people that want that is open shift, a good solution for that. In your opinion, >>we, we of course think it is uh, it is part of our IOT foundation, uh, is not the only technology components, but is one of the, one of the most relevant and it is absolutely happiness in uh, enabling the possibility of orchestrating more clothes uh, from the cloud to the edge. And we will be able to give you more information about that as soon as uh, we will release the first Distribue work clothes within 2021. So I'll be happy to to answer any any questions from our peers or or other colleagues from other industries. >>You guys have thousands and thousands of sites. This is the classic industrial edge implementation, closely monitoring just monitoring the pipes. I mean, you gotta monitoring the system just physically. I mean, this is like a, just a physical thing. So now as you have technology, you guys have to monitor and get that early detection of any gas leaks, this is critical to your business. Um how is that changing? How is that environment changing with technology is more automated? What's your vision? How are you guys looking at that? >>Well, we, we surely are trying to move along to two main drivers. The first is um, unification and standardization of how we monitor all these distributed technology stock. This is very important because even for the simplest use case, you're now dealing with distributed application and this is a entirely different game to what we are used to basically. And and um uh the the other rather the other relevant thing is how can we get the best from um the machines we put on the field. So in other in other in other terms, how can we standardize how we connect to the machines we have on the field and how much intelligence we need to put there and how to test it. And in order to do that, we're thinking about um building a digital twin of our assets that will enable us to being able to test and to end before getting to the real thing on field. How will it work? What are the security vulnerabilities, potential security vulnerability and other aspects uh of the technology infrastructure and the data infrastructure? And we think this is very important because in some way uh in order to provide the acceleration and the scale that we uh are going to provide uh to, to our company, we need to be sure well in advance that what we designed will work in practice without getting to the field. We would like to get into the field where everything is already tested, >>repair too. Great to have you on the cube. Great to see you. Thanks for coming in from Milan Italy. Um cute virtual. It's one of the benefits and hope to see you in person soon at the next event. But great use case, love your environment, love how you're looking at that platform is a distributed platform and bringing that O T T together data center to the cloud to the edge. That's a really relevant use case and architecture. So congratulations. >>Thank you very much, john and I hope to see you too very soon. Alive >>when I'm in Italy, we're gonna come by and do a site visit and uh, see each other coming on. I appreciate it. Thank you. >>Absolutely. >>Okay. Cube coverage for Red Hat Summit 2021. I'm John for your host. Thanks for watching. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm.

(upbeat music) >> Hello and welcome back to theCUBES coverage of Red Hat summit 21 virtual. I'm John Furry, host of theCUBE. We've two great guests here, returning back CUBE alumni here to give us their perspective. Dave Linquist GM VP of engineering hybrid cloud management at Red Hat. Joe Fitzgerald, general manager VP of the management business unit Red Hat. Guys, welcome back to theCUBE. Congratulations, Red Hat summits, ongoing virtual. Great to see you. >> Thank you, John. >> Thanks John. >> So I'd love to get the low down. A lot going on the productivity this year. Looking back from last year, a lot's been done and we've been in the pandemic now, now circling back a full year. A lot's happened- a lot of productivity, a lot of clear visibility on, on what's working, what's not, you guys got some great news. Let's just jump right into it. What's the big announcement? >> So one of the things that we announced here at Summit, John, is an expansion of our Red Hat insights brand. Basically we announced Red Hat insights for our RHEL platform back in 2015. Over the years, we've increased the amount of data and visibility into those systems. Here at summit, we've now announced Red Hat insights for both OpenShift, and for the Red Hat Ansible platform. So it's a pretty significant increase in the visibility that we have to the platforms. >> Oh, so can you repeat that one more time? So the expansion is through which platform style specifically? >> So Red Hat insights is a way that we connect up to different platforms that Red Hat provides. Historically it was for Red Hat enterprise Linux realm. We've now expanded it to the Red Hat, OpenShift family, the platforms as well as the Red Hat Ansible automation platform as well. >> So a nice broad expansion and people want that data. What's what was the motivation behind it? Was it customer demand? Was it more access to the data? Just, was it on the roadmap? What's the motivation- where where's this going? What's what's the purpose of all this? >> Well, I don't think customers say, Hey, please, you know take more data. I think it's customers say, can you keep me more secure? Can you keep my systems more optimized? Can you help me set more things to automatic? And that requires that you get data from these systems that you can auto tune on, auto- secure, auto optimize. Right? So it's really all those benefits that we get by connecting to these systems, bringing the telemetry data that config different kinds of information, and using that on customer behalf to optimize secure to the systems. >> You know, one of the biggest trends I think now for multiple years has been observability with cloud native, more services are being turned on and off enterprises are are getting a lot of pressure to be modern in their in their application development processes. Why is data more important than ever now? Can you guys take a minute to expand on that? Because this idea of telemetry across the platform is a very interesting announcement because you're turning that data into value, but can you guys expand where's that value coming, turning into? What is the value proposition? Where are people seeing the, the, the key key value points? >> Well, a couple of points, John, as you started out is in a hybrid cloud environment with cloud native applications and a lot of application modernization and the current progressiveness of DevOps and SRE teams, you're seeing a lot of dynamics and workloads and continuous delivery and deployments that are in public environments and private environments, distributed models. And so consequently, there's a lot of change in dynamics in the environment. So to sustain these high levels of service levels to sustain the security and the compliance, the ability to gather data from all these different points, to be able to get visibility into that data. It'd be able the ability to process that with various analytics and understand what when something's gone wrong or when an update is needed or when a configuration has drifted is increasingly critical in that in a hybrid cloud environment. >> So on the telemetry piece is that in open shift as well that that's supporting that as in there has that work. >> It's it's in OpenShift, as Joe mentioned, it's in braille it's in V2 Ansible and the OpenShift space we'd have an offering advanced cluster management that understands fleets of deployments, clusters, wherever they're deployed however they're running infrastructure public private hybrid environments. And it also collects in the context of the workloads that are deployed on those on those clusters to multi-question burn. >> I want to ask you guys a question. I get this all the time on theCUBE. Hey, you know, I need more data. I have multiple systems. I need to pull that data into one kind of control plane but I'm being pushed more and more to keep scaling operations. And this becomes a huge question mark for the enterprises because they, they have to turn up more, more scale. So this is becomes a data problem. Does this solve it here? How do you guys answer that? And what was the, what would be your response to that trend? >> Well, I think the, the thirst for data, right? There's a lot of things you can do with more data. There is a point where you can't ship all the data everywhere, right? If you think about logs and metrics and all the data it's too heavyweight to move everything everywhere. Right? So part of it is, you know, selecting the kind of data that you're going to get from these systems and the purpose you're going to use it for. And in the case of Red Hat, we take data from these different systems, regardless of whether they're deployed bring it in, and then we did predictive analytics against that data. And we use that telemetry that can take that health data right to do everything from optimize for performance or security costs, things like that. But we're not moving, you know, huge quantities of data from every system to Red Hat in order to, you know, pour through it. We are very selectively moving certain kinds of data for very specific purposes. >> Dave, what's your take on that because you know you got to engineer these systems. What's the optimized path for data? Do you keep it in the silo? Do you bring it together? What's the customer's view on, on how to deal with the data? >> Yeah. It is a complex problem. No doubt. You don't want it to be pulling all the data and trying to transmit all that data back into your analytics system. So you ended up curating some data, some of it you afford on often it's done under it will be done under control of policies. So that data that is sensitive, that should stay within the environment that it's in, will stay, but curated or alerts or information that's particularly relevant say to configurations, updates, any any of that type of information will go up into the analytics, into the insights. And then in turn, the alerts will come back down in a manner that are presented to the user. So they understand what actions need to be taken place whether there's automated actions or or they have to get approvals to maybe make an update to a certain environment. >> All right, you got telemetry, data power, the the advanced cluster management ACM. What's the overlap of the visibility and automation here. Can you guys talk about that? >> Well, let's say it's a great question, John what we'd like to do is we'd like to sort of separate the different areas. There's the seeing, right. And what's going on in these environment. Right. So getting the data analyzing it and determining what needs to be done. And then the, you know the recommendation of the automation. As Dave said, in a lot of environments, there's a process of either approvals or checkpoints or, you know evaluation of the changes being made to the system. Right. So separating the data and the analysis from the what do you want to do at this and making that configurable I think is really powerful. >> Yeah. I mean, that's, I mean I think that's the number one thing is like, you know everyone always asks, what do you optimize for do you optimize for the automation or the visibility? And I think, you know, there's always a trade-off and that's always interesting question David- love to get your thoughts. If someone asks you, Hey, I'm a I'm I have a team of people. What do I optimize for? The visibility or the automation or both? Is or is there a rule of thumb or is there a playbook? What w how would you answer that question? >> Well, there's a couple of things. I first, I think the, the ability to pull the data together to get visibility across the environment is critical. And then what becomes often complex is how the different disciplines, how the different parts of the system are able to work together on common understanding of the resources common understanding the applications. That's usually where systems start falling down. And so it's too siloed. So one of the key things we have with with our systems, particularly with OpenShift and row and with ACM and Ansible is the ability to have the common back lane and the ability to have a common understanding of the resources and the applications. And then you can start integrating the data around that common, those common data models and take appropriate actions on that. So that's how you ended up getting the visibility integrated with the automation. >> When you think about this, Joe about the security aspect of it and the edge of the network which has been a big theme this year and going into next year, a lot more discussion just the industrial edge, you know, that's important. You got to take all this into account. How do you, how would you talk about folks who are thinking about embedding security and thinking about now the distributed edge specifically? >> Right. So we thought it was complicated before, right? It goes up a notch here, right? As you have, you know, more and more edge applications I think at the edge, you're going to want automated policies and automated configurations in force so that when a device connects up to a network or is, you know analyzed that there's a set of policies and some configurations and versions that need to be applied to that device, these devices, aren't always connected. There's not always high bandwidth. So you basically want a high degree of automation in that case. And to get back to your early point there are certain things you can set like policies about security or configuration. You say, I always want it to be like this and make it so and there's other things where they're more you know, complicated, right. To, to address or have regulatory requirements or oversight issues. And those things you want to tell somebody I think this should be done. Is this the right thing to do? Is it okay? Do it, but at the edge you're going to have a lot more sort of lights out automation to keep these things secure, to configure. Right. >> It's funny. I was, some of the Ansible guys are talking about, you know code for code, changing code all the time and dynamic nature of some of the emerging tech coming out of the Red Hat teams. It's pretty interesting. You guys have going on there, but you know, you can bring it down to the average enterprise and main street, you know enterprise out there, you know, they're looking at, okay I got some public loud. Now I got hybrid. I'm going a hundred percent hybrid. That's pretty much the general consensus of all the enterprises. Okay. So now you say, okay, if I understand this correctly you got insights on REL, OpenShift and Ansible platform. So I'm, am I set up for an open hybrid cloud? That's the question I want to ask you guys does that give me the foundation to allow me to start the cloud adoption with an, a true distributed open way >> I'll I'll offer to go first. I think there's a couple of things you need in order to run across hybrid clouds. And I think Red Hat from a platform point of view the fact that Red Hat platforms run across all those different environments from the public cloud to on-premise and physical vert to edge devices. Now you have consistency of those platforms whether it's your traditional on REL, your container based workloads on shift or automation that's being turned in by Ansible. Those are consistent across all these different hybrid cloud environments. So reduces the complexity by standardizing those platforms across any and all of those different substrates. Then, when you can take the data from those systems bring them centrally and use it to manage those things to a higher degree of automation. Now you take an, another sort of chunk of complexity out of the problem, right? Consistency of getting data from all those different systems being able to set policies and enforce things across all those distributed environments is huge. >> Yeah. And then, you know, it fills in the gaps when you start thinking about the siloed teams, you know, the, the, I think one of the messages that I've been hearing out of Red Hat Summit in the industry that's consistent is the unification trend that's going on. Unifying development teams in a way that creates more of an exponential value curve rather than just linear progressions in, in traditional IT. Are you guys seeing that as well? I mean, what's your take on this? That's that piece of the story? >> Well, I think the shift that we've seen for the last few years actually quite a few years with DevOps and SRE is started to bring a lot of the disciplines together that you mentioned that are traditionally silos. And you're finding the effectiveness of that is really around many of the areas that we've been discussing here which is open platforms that can run consistently across a hybrid environment, the ability to get data and visibility out of this platform. So you can see across the distributed environment across the hybrid environment and then the ability to take actions in Bourse or update environments through automation is, is is really what's critical to bring things to to bring it all together. >> Yeah. I think that's such an important point, Joe. You know, I was talking with Chris right around and we we've covered this in the past red hats success with academics in the young people coming into in the universities with computer science. It's not just computer science anymore. Now you have engineering degrees kind of cross-disciplinary with SRS is SRE movement because you're looking at cloud operations at scale. That's not an IT problem anymore. It's actually an IT next gen problem. And this is kind of what, there's no real degree. There's no real credential for, you know large scale hybrid cloud environment. You guys have the mass open cloud initiative. I saw that going on. That's some really pretty big things. This is a, a change and, and talent. What's your, what's your view on this? Because I think people want to learn what what do I need to be in the future? What position? >> So John it's a great question. I think Ansible actually addresses a number of the issues you brought up, which is, you know historically there've been different tools for each of the different groups. So, you know, developers had their favorite set of tools and different, IT areas their favorite set of tools and technologies. And it was sort of like a tower of Babel. People did not share the same, you know sort of languages and tools. Ansible crosses both your your development test and operational teams. So creates a common language, now that can be used across different teams. It's easy to understand. So it sort of democratizes automation. You don't have to be deeply skilled in some, you know misspoke language or technology in order to be able to do some level of automation. So I think sort of sharing the same technology and tools I'd like an answer, more democratizing it so that more people can get involved in automating sharing that automation across teams and unifying those worlds is huge, right? So I think that's a game changer as well in terms of getting these teams work holistically integrated. >> Yeah. And there's also a better together panel on the Ansible and advanced cluster management session. Folks watching should check it out on on the virtual event platform on that point while I got you here on that point, let's let's talk about the portfolio updates for advanced cluster management for Kubernetes, what's new since the Ansible Fest, Ansible Fest announcements >> There's quite a bit that's been new since Ansible Fest. Ansible Fest well actually going back to Summit last year we introduced advanced cluster management. For years, we've been seeing the growth of Kubernetes with cloud native and clusters. And what ACM really allows enterprises to do is is scale out their deployments of OpenShift. Well, one of the things we found is that as you're deploying workloads or clusters or trying to take care of the compliance, the importance of integrating that environment with the breadth of capabilities that Ansible has in automation. So that's what we announced that at Ansible Fest following last year's summit what we've done is put a lot more focus on that integration with Ansible. So when you bring up, provision a cluster maybe you need to make some storage or security configurations on behalf of that cluster or if you're taking care of the compliance how do you remediate any issues with Ansible or one of the things that get shown a lot, demonstrate a lot with customers like is when you're deploying applications into production, how do you configure the network? Do the network configurations like a load balancer maybe a ticket into your service management system along with say a threat detection on your security. So a lot of advances with ACM and the integration with a broader ecosystem of IT, in particular with, with Ansible >> What's the ecosystem update for partners? And this has comes up all the time. I want to make sure I get this in there. I want it, I missed it. Last time we chatted, you know, the partner impact to this. You mentioned the ecosystem and you've got native Coobernetti's, non-native what's native to open. You guys have a lot of native things and sometimes it's just support for other clouds. So you start to get into the integration questions. Partners are very interested in what you guys are doing. Can you share the partner update on how they play and what impacts them the most here? >> Yeah. On the events, cluster management ACM front first with this integration with Ansible that actually allows us to integrate with the wealth of partner ecosystem the Ansible apps, which is huge. So that's, that's one, one space. And then the way ACM works, this policy desirous state model is we've been able to integrate with a large number of partners around particularly the security space model the service management space, where they, where we can enforce the use of certain security tools on the on the clusters themselves. So it's really opened up how quickly partner offerings can be integrated into the OpenShift environment at scale across all the clusters that you want, that you need to support it on what the appropriate configurations and policies >> I got to ask you on the insight side you mentioned the expansion across the platform. Now, if you go out and take out to the ecosystem, you know there's guard rails around governance how far can partners push their data in terms of sharing? That's something that might come up when you comment on that. >> Sure. So Red Hat, you know, takes, you know our customer data very seriously. We're a trusted partner to our customers. So the data that we get from systems we make sure that we are following all of the governance and oversight necessary to protect that data. So far, we have basically been collecting that data and using that data at Red Hat. Our plan really is to allow partners with the right degree of governance and control to be able to use some of that data in the future, under the right conditions whether it's anonymized or aggregated, things like that to be able to take that data and to add value to customers if they can enrich customers or or help customers by getting some access to that data without every vendor or partner, having to go out to systems and having to connect and pull data back. That's a pretty tough situation for customers to live with. But I think that fact that we're ahead is trusted. We've been doing this for awhile. We know how to handle the data. We know how to provide the governance. But our plan really is to enable partners to use that data ecosystem. I will say that initially what they had said about ACM and partners, Ansible has been working with partners on the automation side at a very large scale, right? So if you look at the amount of partners that are doing automation, work with us we have some pretty strong, you know, depth there. But in terms of working with partners, our plan is to take the data ecosystem, expand that as well. >> It's really a nice mix between the Ansible OpenShift and then REL, do you guys have great insights across now? I think the open innovation just continues to be every year. I say the same thing. It's almost like a broken record but every year it just gets better and better. You know, innovation out in the open you guys doing a great job and continuing and now certainly as the pandemic looks like it's coming to an end soon, post-pandemic, a lot more projects are being worked on a lot more productivity, as we said at the top. So to end the segment out I'd love to get you guys to weigh in on what happens next. As we come out of the pandemic, the table has been set. The foundation's there, cloud native is continuing to accelerate rapidly in the open OpenSource, going through them on another level. What's next what's, what's going to what's next for customers. Are they going to continue to double down on those? The winds they're going to shut down certain projects. What happens after this pandemic? How do people grow, Dave? We'll start with you. >> Well, I think, yes we all see the light at the end of the tunnel, John. It's great. And I think if a positive, is it really throughout this? We've been accelerated in the digitization and at modernization cross the board across industries. Okay. And that is really teaching all of us a lot about the importance of how do you start managing and running this at scale and securing this at scale. So I think what we'll see coming out of this is just that much more effort, open ecosystems. How you really bring together data across insights? How do you bring in increasing the amount of analytics AI to now do something turn that data into information that you can respond with and that in turn, close it, closing the loop with automation against or against your hybrid cloud environment? We're just going to see acceleration of that occurring. >> Awesome, great insights there. Open data insights, automation, all kind of coming together. AI. You don't have AI in your, your plans. Someone was Wall Street was joking. That's going to be the future stable stakes get listed on Wall Street. You got to have some sort of AI piece. They have great insight, Joe, your take on what's next? What, what what's going to what's going to happen as we come out of the pandemic? >> Yeah. We've definitely seen people, you know advance their digital transformation. And I don't think it's going to stop. Right? So the speed scale and complexity or just put more pressure on teams, right? To be able to support these environments that are evolving at light speed. So I think Red Hat is really well positioned and is a great partner for folks who are trying to get more digital, faster trying to leverage these technologies from the hybrid cloud to the edge. They're going to need lots of help. Red Hat is in a great position. >> Okay. >> You guys doing great work, Dave Linquist, Joe Fitzgerald. Great to have you back on again. Open, always wins. And as end users become much more participants in the open source ecosystem and user contributions and user interactions software at scale, it's now a new come next generation commercial environment, You guys are doing a great job. Thank you for sharing. Appreciate it. >> Thank you John. >> Thanks John. >> Okay. Red Hat Summit 21 CUBE coverage. I'm John Furrier getting all the action from the experts who've been there, done that living through it, being more productive and have bringing benefits to you being open source. Thanks for watching.