>>Set restaurants. And who says TEUs had got a little ass more skin in the game for us, in charge of his destiny? You guys are excited. Robert Worship is Chief Alumni. >>My name is Dave Ante, and I'm a long time industry analyst. So when you're as old as I am, you've seen a lot of transitions. Everybody talks about industry cycles and waves. I've seen many, many waves. Met a lot of industry executives and of a little bit of a, an industry historian. When you interview many thousands of people, probably five or 6,000 people as I have over the last half of a decade, you get to interact with a lot of people's knowledge and you begin to develop patterns. And so that's sort of what I bring is, is an ability to catalyze the conversation and, you know, share that knowledge with others in the community. Our philosophy is everybody's expert at something. Everybody's passionate about something and has real deep knowledge about that's something well, we wanna focus in on that area and extract that knowledge and share it with our communities. This is Dave Ante. Thanks for watching the Cube. >>Hello everyone and welcome back to the Cube where we are streaming live this week from CubeCon. I am Savannah Peterson and I am joined by an absolutely stellar lineup of cube brilliance this afternoon. To my left, a familiar face, Lisa Martin. Lisa, how you feeling? End of day two. >>Excellent. It was so much fun today. The buzz started yesterday, the momentum, the swell, and we only heard even more greatness today. >>Yeah, yeah, abs, absolutely. You know, I, I sometimes think we've hit an energy cliff, but it feels like the energy is just >>Continuous. Well, I think we're gonna, we're gonna slide right into tomorrow. >>Yeah, me too. I love it. And we've got two fantastic analysts with us today, Sarge and Keith. Thank you both for joining us. We feel so lucky today. >>Great being back on. >>Thanks for having us. Yeah, Yeah. It's nice to have you back on the show. We were, had you yesterday, but I miss hosting with you. It's been a while. >>It has been a while. We haven't done anything in since, Since pre >>Pandemic, right? Yeah, I think you're >>Right. Four times there >>Be four times back in the day. >>We, I always enjoy whole thing, Lisa, cuz she's so well prepared. I don't have to do any research when I come >>Home. >>Lisa will bring up some, Oh, sorry. Jeep, I see that in 2008 you won this award for Yeah. Being just excellent and I, I'm like, Oh >>Yeah. All right Keith. So, >>So did you do his analysis? >>Yeah, it's all done. Yeah. Great. He only part, he's not sitting next to me too. We can't see it, so it's gonna be like a magic crystal bell. Right. So a lot of people here. You got some stats in terms of the attendees compared >>To last year? Yeah, Priyanka told us we were double last year up to 8,000. We also got the scoop earlier that 2023 is gonna be in Chicago, which is very exciting. >>Oh, that is, is nice. Yeah, >>We got to break that here. >>Excellent. Keith, talk to us about what some of the things are that you've seen the last couple of days. The momentum. What's the vibe? I saw your tweet about the top three things you were being asked. Kubernetes was not one of them. >>Kubernetes were, was not one of 'em. This conference is starting to, it, it still feels very different than a vendor conference. The keynote is kind of, you know, kind of all over the place talking about projects, but the hallway track has been, you know, I've, this is maybe my fifth or sixth CU con in person. And the hallway track is different. It's less about projects and more about how, how do we adjust to the enterprise? How do we Yes. Actually do enterprise things. And it has been amazing watching this community grow. I'm gonna say grow up and mature. Yes. You know, you know, they're not wearing ties yet, but they are definitely understanding kind of the, the friction of implementing new technology in, in an enterprise. >>Yeah. So ge what's your, what's been your take, We were with you yesterday. What's been the take today to take aways? >>NOMA has changed since yesterday, but a few things I think I, I missed talking about that yesterday were that, first of all, let's just talk about Amazon. Amazon earnings came out, it spooked the market and I think it's relevant in this context as well, because they're number one cloud provider. Yeah. And all, I mean, almost all of these technologies on the back of us here, they are related to cloud, right? So it will have some impact on these. Like we have to analyze that. Like will it make the open source go faster or slower in, in lieu of the fact that the, the cloud growth is slowing. Right? So that's, that's one thing that's put that's put that aside. I've been thinking about the, the future of Kubernetes. What is the future of Kubernetes? And in that context, I was thinking like, you know, I think in, when I put a pointer there, I think in tangents, like, what else is around this thing? So I think CN CNCF has been writing the success of Kubernetes. They are, that was their number one flagship project, if you will. And it was mature enough to stand on its own. It it was Google, it's Google's Borg dub da Kubernetes. It's a genericized version of that. Right? So folks who do tech deep down, they know that, Right. So I think it's easier to stand with a solid, you know, project. But when the newer projects come in, then your medal will get tested at cncf. Right. >>And cncf, I mean they've got over 140 projects Yeah. Right now. So there's definitely much beyond >>Kubernetes. Yeah. So they, I have numbers there. 18 graduated, right, 37 in incubation and then 81 in Sandbox stage. They have three stages, right. So it's, they have a lot to chew on and the more they take on, the less, you know, quality you get goes into it. Who is, who's putting the money behind it? Which vendors are sponsoring like cncf, like how they're getting funded up. I think it >>Something I pay attention to as well. Yeah. Yeah. Lisa, I know you've got >>Some insight. Those are the things I was thinking about today. >>I gotta ask you, what's your take on what Keith said? Are you also seeing the maturation of the enterprise here at at coupon? >>Yes, I am actually, when you say enterprise versus what's the other side? Startups, right? Yeah. So startups start using open source a lot more earlier or lot more than enterprises. The enterprise is what they need. Number one thing is the, for their production workloads, they want a vendor sporting them. I said that yesterday as well, right? So it depend depending on the size of the enterprise. If you're a big shop, definitely if you have one of the 500 or Fortune five hundreds and your tech savvy shop, then you can absorb the open source directly coming from the open source sort of universe right. Coming to you. But if you are the second tier of enterprise, you want to go to a provider which is managed service provider, or it can be cloud service provider in this case. Yep. Most of the cloud service providers have multiple versions of Kubernetes, for example. >>I'm not talking about Kubernetes only, but like, but that is one example, right? So at Amazon you can get five different flavors of Kubernetes, right? Fully manage, have, manage all kind of stuff. So people don't have bandwidth to manage that stuff locally. You have to patch it, you have to roll in the new, you know, updates and all that stuff. Like, it's a lot of work for many. So CNCF actually is formed for that reason. Like the, the charter is to bring the quality to open source. Like in other companies they have the release process and they, the stringent guidelines and QA and all that stuff. So is is something ready for production? That's the question when it comes to any software, right? So they do that kind of work and, and, and they have these buckets defined at high level, but it needs more >>Work. Yeah. So one of the things that, you know, kind of stood out to me, I have good friend in the community, Alex Ellis, who does open Fast. It's a serverless platform, great platform. Two years ago or in 2019, there was a serverless day date. And in serverless day you had K Native, you had Open Pass, you had Ws, which is supported by IBM completely, not CNCF platforms. K native came into the CNCF full when Google donated the project a few months ago or a couple of years ago, now all of a sudden there's a K native day. Yes. Not a serverless day, it's a K native day. And I asked the, the CNCF event folks like, what happened to Serverless Day? I missed having open at serverless day. And you know, they, they came out and said, you know what, K native got big enough. >>They came in and I think Red Hat and Google wanted to sponsor a K native day. So serverless day went away. So I think what what I'm interested in and over the next couple of years is, is they're gonna be pushback from the C against the cncf. Is the CNCF now too big? Is it now the gatekeeper for do I have to be one of those 147 projects, right? In order enough to get my project noticed the open, fast, great project. I don't think Al Alex has any desire to have his project hosted by cncf, but it probably deserves, you know, shoulder left recognition with that. So I'm pushing to happen to say, okay, if this is open community, this is open source. If CNC is the place to have the cloud native conversation, what about the projects that's not cncf? Like how do we have that conversation when we don't have the power of a Google right. Or a, or a Lenox, et cetera, or a Lenox Foundation. So GE what, >>What are your thoughts on that? Is, is CNC too big? >>I don't think it's too big. I think it's too small to handle the, what we are doing in open source, right? So it's a bottle. It can become a bottleneck. Okay. I think too big in a way that yeah, it has, it has, it has power from that point of view. It has that cloud, if you will. The people listen to it. If it's CNCF project or this must be good, it's like in, in incubators. Like if you are y white Combinator, you know, company, it must be good. You know, I mean, may not be >>True, but, >>Oh, I think there's a bold assumption there though. I mean, I think everyone's just trying to do the best they can. And when we're evaluating projects, a very different origin and background, it's incredibly hard. Very c and staff is a staff of 30 people. They've got 180,000 people that are contributing to these projects and a thousand maintainers that they're trying to uphold. I think the challenge is actually really great. And to me, I actually look at events as an illustration of, you know, what's the culture and the health of an organization. If I were to evaluate CNCF based on that, I'd say we're very healthy right now. I would say that we're in a good spot. There's a lot of momentum. >>Yeah. I, I think CNCF is very healthy. I'm, I'm appreciative for it being here. I love coupon. It's becoming the, the facto conference to have this conversation has >>A totally >>Different vibe to other, It's a totally different vibe. Yeah. There needs to be a conduit and truth be told, enterprise buyers, to subject's point, this is something that we do absolutely agree on, on enterprise buyers. We want someone to pick winners and losers. We do, we, we don't want a box of Lego dumped on our, the middle of our table. We want somebody to have sorted that out. So while there may be five or six different service mesh solutions, at least the cncf, I can go there and say, Oh, I'll pick between the three or four that are most popular. And it, it's a place to curate. But I think with that curation comes the other side of it. Of how do we, how, you know, without the big corporate sponsor, how do I get my project pushed up? Right? Elevated. Elevated, Yep. And, and put onto the show floor. You know, another way that projects get noticed is that startups will adopt them, Push them. They may not even be, I don't, my CNCF project may not, my product may not even be based on the CNCF product. But the new stack has a booth, Ford has a booth. Nothing to do with a individual prod up, but promoting open source. What happens when you're not sponsored? >>I gotta ask you guys, what do you disagree on? >>Oh, so what, what do we disagree on? So I'm of the mindset, I can, I can say this, I I believe hybrid infrastructure is the future of it. Bar none. If I built my infrastructure, if I built my application in the cloud 10 years ago and I'm still building net new applications, I have stuff that I built 10 years ago that looks a lot like on-prem, what do I do with it? I can't modernize it cuz I don't have the developers to do it. I need to stick that somewhere. And where I'm going to stick that at is probably a hybrid infrastructure. So colo, I'm not gonna go back to the data center, but I'm, I'm gonna look, pick up something that looks very much like the data center and I'm saying embrace that it's the future. And if you're Boeing and you have, and Boeing is a member, cncf, that's a whole nother topic. If you have as 400 s, hpu X, et cetera, stick that stuff. Colo, build new stuff, but, and, and continue to support OpenStack, et cetera, et cetera. Because that's the future. Hybrid is the future. >>And sub g agree, disagree. >>I okay. Hybrid. Nobody can deny that the hybrid is the reality, not the future. It's a reality right now. It's, it's a necessity right now you can't do without it. Right. And okay, hybrid is very relative term. You can be like 10% here, 90% still hybrid, right? So the data center is shrinking and it will keep shrinking. Right? And >>So if by whole is the data center shrinking? >>This is where >>Quick one quick getting guys for it. How is growing by a clip? Yeah, but there's no data supporting. David Lym just came out for a report I think last year that showed that the data center is holding steady, holding steady, not growing, but not shrinking. >>Who sponsored that study? Wait, hold on. So the, that's a question, right? So more than 1 million data centers have been closed. I have, I can dig that through number through somebody like some organizations we published that maybe they're cloud, you know, people only. So the, when you get these kind of statements like it, it can be very skewed statements, right. But if you have seen the, the scene out there, which you have, I know, but I have also seen a lot of data centers walk the floor of, you know, a hundred thousand servers in a data center. I cannot imagine us consuming the infrastructure the way we were going into the future of co Okay. With, with one caveat actually. I am not big fan of like broad strokes. Like make a blanket statement. Oh no, data center's dead. Or if you are, >>That's how you get those esty headlines now. Yeah, I know. >>I'm all about to >>Put a stake in the ground. >>Actually. The, I think that you get more intelligence from the new end, right? A small little details if you will. If you're golden gold manak or Bank of America, you have so many data centers and you will still have data centers because performance matters to you, right? Your late latency matters for applications. But if you are even a Fortune 500 company on the lower end and or a healthcare vertical, right? That your situation is different. If you are a high, you know, growth startup, your situation is different, right? You will be a hundred percent cloud. So cloud gives you velocity, the, the, the pace of change, the pace of experimentation that actually you are buying innovation through cloud. It's proxy for innovation. And that's how I see it. But if you have, if you're stuck with older applications, I totally understand. >>Yeah. So the >>We need that OnPrem. Yeah, >>Well I think the, the bring your fuel sober, what we agree is that cloud is the place where innovation happens. Okay? At some point innovation becomes legacy debt and you have thus hybrid, you are not going to keep your old applications up to date forever. The, the, the math just doesn't add up. And where I differ in opinion is that not everyone needs innovation to keep moving. They need innovation for a period of time and then they need steady state. So Sergeant, we >>Argue about this. I have a, I >>Love this debate though. I say it's efficiency and stability also plays an important role. I see exactly what you're talking about. No, it's >>Great. I have a counter to that. Let me tell you >>Why. Let's >>Hear it. Because if you look at the storage only, right? Just storage. Just take storage computer network for, for a minute. There three cost reps in, in infrastructure, right? So storage earlier, early on there was one tier of storage. You say pay the same price, then now there are like five storage tiers, right? What I'm trying to say is the market sets the price, the market will tell you where this whole thing will go, but I know their margins are high in cloud, 20 plus percent and margin will shrink as, as we go forward. That means the, the cloud will become cheaper relative to on-prem. It, it, in some cases it's already cheaper. But even if it's a stable workload, even in that case, we will have a lower tier of service. I mean, you, you can't argue with me that the cloud versus your data center, they are on the same tier of services. Like cloud is a better, you know, product than your data center. Hands off. >>I love it. We, we are gonna relish in the debates between the two of you. Mic drops. The energy is great. I love it. Perspective. It's not like any of us can quite see through the crystal ball that we have very informed opinions, which is super exciting. Yeah. Lisa, any last thoughts today? >>Just love, I love the debate as well. That, and that's, that's part of what being in this community is all about. So sharing about, sharing opinions, expressing opinions. That's how it grows. That's how, that's how we innovate. Yeah. Obviously we need the cloud, but that's how we innovate. That's how we grow. Yeah. And we've seen that demonstrated the last couple days and I and your, your takes here on the Cuban on Twitter. Brilliant. >>Thank you. I absolutely love it. I'm gonna close this out with a really important analysis on the swag of the show. Yes. And if you know, yesterday we were looking at what is the weirdest swag or most unique swag We had that bucket hat that took the grand prize. Today we're gonna focus on something that's actually quite cool. A lot of the vendors here have really dedicated their swag to being local to Detroit. Very specific in their sourcing. Sonotype here has COOs. They're beautiful. You can't quite feel this flannel, but it's very legit hand sound here in Michigan. I can't say that I've been to too many conferences, if any, where there was this kind of commitment to localizing and sourcing swag from around the corner. We also see this with the Intel booth. They've got screen printers out here doing custom hoodies on spot. >>Oh fun. They're even like appropriately sized. They had local artists do these designs and if you're like me and you care about what's on your wrist, you're familiar with Shinola. This is one of my favorite swags that's available. There is a contest. Oh going on. Hello here. Yeah, so if you are Atan, make sure that you go and check this out. The we, I talked about this on the show. We've had the founder on the show or the CEO and yeah, I mean Shine is just full of class as since we are in Detroit as well. One of the fun themes is cars. >>Yes. >>And Storm Forge, who are also on the show, is actually giving away an Aston Martin, which is very exciting. Not exactly manufactured in Detroit. However, still very cool on the car front and >>The double oh seven version named the best I >>Know in the sixties. It's love it. It's very cool. Two quick last things. We talk about it a lot on the show. Every company now wants to be a software company. Yep. On that vein, and keeping up with my hat theme, the Home Depot is here because they want everybody to know that they in fact are a technology company, which is very cool. They have over 500,000 employees. You can imagine there's a lot of technology that has to go into keeping Napa. Absolutely. Yep. Wild to think about. And then last, but not at least very quick, rapid fire, best t-shirt contest. If you've ever ran to one of these events, there are a ton of T-shirts out there. I rate them on two things. Wittiest line and softness. If you combine the two, you'll really be our grand champion for the year. I'm just gonna hold these up and set them down for your laughs. Not afraid to commit, which is pretty great. This is another one designed by locals here. Detroit Code City. Oh, love it. This one made me chuckle the most. Kiss my cash. >>Oh, that's >>Good. These are also really nice and soft, which is fantastic. Also high on the softness category is this Op Sarah one. I also like their bird logo. These guys, there's just, you know, just real nice touch. So unfortunately, if you have the fumble, you're not here with us, live in Detroit. At least you're gonna get taste of the swag. I taste of the stories and some smiles hear from those of us on the cube. Thank you both so much for being here with us. Lisa, thanks for another fabulous day. Got it, girl. My name's Savannah Peterson. Thank you for joining us from Detroit. We're the cube and we can't wait to see you tomorrow.

>> Announcer: "theCUBE" presents "Kubecon and Cloudnativecon Europe, 2022" brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome to Valencia, Spain and "Kubecon + Cloudnativecon Europe, 2022." I'm Keith Townsend, and we're continuing the conversations with amazing people doing amazing things. I think we've moved beyond a certain phase of the hype cycle when it comes to Kubernetes. And we're going to go a little bit in detail with that today, and on all the sessions, I have today with me, Taylor Dolezal. New head of CNCF Ecosystem. So, first off, what does that mean new head of? You're the head of CNCF Ecosystem? What is the CNCF Ecosystem? >> Yeah. Yeah. It's really the end user ecosystem. So, the CNCF is comprised of really three pillars. And there's the governing board, they oversee the budget and fun things, make sure everything's signed and proper. Then there's the Technical Oversight Committee, TOC. And they really help decide the technical direction of the organization through deliberation and talking about which projects get invited and accepted. Projects get donated, and the TOC votes on who's going to make it in, based on all this criteria. And then, lastly, is the end user ecosystem, that encompasses a whole bunch of different working groups, special interest groups. And that's been really interesting to kind of get a deeper sense into, as of late. So, there are groups like the developer experience group, and the user research group. And those have very specific focuses that kind of go across all industries. But what we've seen lately, is that there are really deep wants to create, whether it be financial services user group, and things like that, because end users are having trouble with going to all of the different meetings. If you're a company, a vendor member company that's selling authentication software, or something in networking, makes sense to have a SIG network, SIG off, and those kinds of things. But when it comes down to like Boeing that just joined, does that make sense for them to jump into all those meetings? Or does it make sense to have some other kind of thing that is representative of them, so that they can attend that one thing, it's specific to their industry? They can get that download and kind of come up to speed, or find the best practices as quickly as possible in a nice synthesized way. >> So, you're 10 weeks into this role. You're coming from a customer environment. So, talk to me a little bit about the customer side of it? When you're looking at something, it's odd to call CNCF massive. But it is, 7.1 million members, and the number of contributing projects, et cetera. Talk to me about the view from the outside versus the view now that you're inside? >> Yeah, so honestly, it's been fun to kind of... For me, it's really mirrored the open-source journey. I've gone to Kubecon before, gotten to enjoy all of the booths, and trying to understand what's going on, and then worked for HashiCorp before coming to the CNCF. And so, get that vendor member kind of experience working the booth itself. So, kind of getting deeper and deeper into the stack of the conference itself. And I keep saying, vendor member and end user members, the difference between those, is end users are not organizations that sell cloud native services. Those are the groups that are kind of more consuming, the Airbnbs, the Boeings, the Mercedes, these people that use these technologies and want to kind of give that feedback back to these projects. But yeah, very incredibly massive and just sprawling when it comes to working in all those contexts. >> So, I have so many questions around, like the differences between having you as an end user and in inter-operating with vendors and the CNCF itself. So, let's start from the end user lens. When you're an end user and you're out discovering open-source and cloud native products, what's that journey like? How do you go from saying, okay, I'm primarily focused on vendor solutions, to let me look at this cloud native stack? >> Yeah, so really with that, there's been, I think that a lot of people have started to work with me and ask for, "Can we have recommended architectures? Can we have blueprints for how to do these things?" When the CNCF doesn't want to take that position, we don't want to kind of be the king maker and be like, this is the only way forward. We want to be inclusive, we want to pull in these projects, and kind of give everyone the same boot strap and jump... I missing the word of it, just ability to kind of like springboard off of that. Create a nice base for everybody to get started with, and then, see what works out, learn from one another. I think that when it comes to Kubernetes, and Prometheus, and some other projects, being able to share best practices between those groups of what works best as well. So, within all of the separations of the CNCF, I think that's something I've found really fun, is kind of like seeing how the projects relate to those verticals and those groups as well. Is how you run a project, might actually have a really good play inside of an organization like, "I like that idea. Let's try that out with our team." >> So, like this idea of springboarding. You know, is when an entrepreneur says, "You know what? I'm going to quit my job and springboard off into doing something new." There's a lot of uncertainty, but for enterprise, that can be really scary. Like we're used to our big vendors, HashiCorp, VMware, Cisco kind of guiding us and telling us like, what's next? What is that experience like, springboarding off into something as massive as cloud native? >> So, I think it's really, it's a great question. So, I think that's why the CNCF works so well, is the fact that it's a safe place for all these companies to come together, even companies of competing products. you know, having that common vision of, we want to make production boring again, we don't want to have so much sprawl and have to take in so much knowledge at once. Can we kind of work together to create all these things to get rid of our adminis trivia or maintenance tasks? I think that when it comes to open-source in general, there's a fantastic book it's called "Working in Public," it's by Stripe Press. I recommend it all over the place. It's orange, so you'll recognize it. Yeah, it's easy to see. But it's really good 'cause it talks about the maintainer journey, and what things make it difficult. And so, I think that that's what the CNCF is really working hard to try to get rid of, is all this monotonous, all these monotonous things, filing issues, best practices. How do you adopt open-source within your organization? We have tips and tricks, and kind of playbooks in ways that you could accomplish that. So, that's what I find really useful for those kinds of situations. Then it becomes easier to adopt that within your organization. >> So, I asked Priyanka, CNCF executive director last night, a pretty tough question. And this is kind of in the meat of what you do. What happens when you? Let's pick on service mesh 'cause everyone likes to pick on service mesh. >> XXXX: Yeah. >> What happens when there's differences at that vendor level on the direction of a CIG or a project, or the ecosystem around service mesh? >> Yeah, so that's the fun part. Honestly, is 'cause people get to hash it out. And so, I think that's been the biggest thing for me finding out, was that there's more than one way to do thing. And so, I think it always comes down to use case. What are you trying to do? And then you get to solve after that. So, it really is, I know it depends, which is the worst answer. But I really do think that's the case, because if you have people that are using something within the automotive space, or in the financial services space, they're going to have completely different needs, wants, you know, some might need to run Coball or Fortran, others might not have to. So, even at that level, just down to what your tech stack looks like, audits, and those kinds of things, that can just really differ. So, I think it does come down to something more like that. >> So, the CNCF loosely has become kind of a standards body. And it's centered around the core project Kubernetes? >> Mm-hmm. >> So, what does it mean, when we're looking at larger segments such as service mesh or observability, et cetera, to be Kubernetes compliant? Where's the point, if any, that the CNCF steps in versus just letting everyone hash it out? Is it Kubernetes just need to be Kubernetes compliant and everything else is free for all? >> Honestly, in many cases, it's up to the communities themselves to decide that. So, the groups that are running OCI, the Open Container Interface, Open Storage Interface, all of those things that we've agreed on as ways to implement those technologies, I think that's where the CNCF, that's the line. That's where the CNCF gets up to. And then, it's like we help foster those communities and those conversations and asking, does this work for you? If not, let's talk about it, let's figure out why it might not. And then, really working closely with community to kind of help bring those things forward and create action items. >> So, it's all about putting the right people in the rooms and not necessarily playing referee, but to get people in the right room to have and facilitate the conversation? >> Absolutely. Absolutely. Like all of the booths behind us could have their own conferences, but we want to bring everybody together to have those conversations. And again, sprawling can be really wild at certain times, but it's good to have those cross understandings, or to hear from somebody that you're like, "Oh, my goodness, I didn't even think about that kind of context or use case." So, really inclusive conversation. >> So, organizations like Boeing, Adobe, Microsoft, from an end user perspective, it's sometimes difficult to get those organizations into these types of communities. How do you encourage them to participate in the conversation 'cause their voice is extremely important? >> Yeah, that I'd also say it really is the community. I really liked the Kubernetes documentary that was put out, working with some of the CNCF folks and core, and beginning Kubernetes contributors and maintainers. And it just kind of blew me away when they had said, you know, what we thought was success, was seeing Kubernetes in an Amazon Data Center. That's when we knew that this was going to take root. And you'd rarely hear that, is like, "When somebody that we typically compete with, its success is seeing it, seeing them use that." And so, I thought was really cool. >> You know, I like to use this technology for my community of skipping rope. You see the girls and boys jumping double Dutch rope. And you think, "I can do that. Like it's just jumping." But there's this hesitation to actually, how do you start? How do you get inside of it? The question is how do you become a member of the community? We've talked a lot about what happens when you're in the community. But how do you join the community? >> So, really, there's a whole bunch of ways that you can. Actually, the shirt that I'm wearing, I got from the 114 Release. So, this is just a fun example of that community. And just kind of how welcoming and inviting that they are. Really, I do think it's kind of like a job breaker. Almost you start at the outside, you start using these technologies, even more generally like, what is DevOps? What is production? How do I get to infrastructure, architecture, or software engineering? Once you start there, you start working your way in, you develop a stack, and then you start to see these tools, technologies, workflows. And then, after you've kind of gotten a good amount of time spent with it, you might really enjoy it like that, and then want to help contribute like, "I like this, but it would be great to have a function that did this. Or I want a feature that does that." At that point in time, you can either take a look at the source code on GitHub, or wherever it's hosted, and then start to kind of come up with that, some ideas to contribute back to that. And then, beyond that, you can actually say, "No, I kind of want to have these conversations with people." Join in those special interest groups, and those meetings to kind of talk about things. And then, after a while, you can kind of find yourself in a contributor role, and then a maintainer role. After that, if you really like the project, and want to kind of work with community on that front. So, I think you had asked before, like Microsoft, Adobe and these others. Really it's about steering the projects. It's these communities want these things, and then, these companies say, "Okay, this is great. Let's join in the conversation with the community." And together again, inclusivity, and bringing everybody to the table to have that discussion and push things forward. >> So, Taylor, closing message. What would you want people watching this show to get when they think about ecosystem and CNCF? >> So, ecosystem it's a big place, come on in. Yeah, (laughs) the water's just fine. I really want people to take away the fact that... I think really when it comes down to, it really is the community, it's you. We are the end user ecosystem. We're the people that build the tools, and we need help. No matter how big or small, when you come in and join the community, you don't have to rewrite the Kubernetes scheduler. You can help make documentation that much more easy to understand, and in doing so, helping thousands of people, If I'm going through the instructions or reading a paragraph, doesn't make sense, that has such a profound impact. And I think a lot of people miss that. It's like, even just changing punctuation can have such a giant difference. >> Yeah, I think people sometimes forget that community, especially community-run projects, they need product managers. They need people that will help with communications, people that will help with messaging, websites updating. Just reachability, anywhere from developing code to developing documentation, there's ways to jump in and help the community. From Valencia, Spain, I'm Keith Townsend, and you're watching "theCUBE," the leader in high tech coverage. (bright upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is a CUBE conversation. >> Hey, welcome back everybody. Jeff Frick here with the CUBE, coming to you from our Palo Alto studios today for a CUBE conversation. we've got a couple of a CUBE alumni veterans who've been on a lot of times. They've got some exciting announcements to tell us today, so we're excited to jump into it, So let's go. First we're joined by Eric Herzog. He's the CMO and VP worldwide storage channels for IBM Storage, made his time on theCUBE Eric, great to see you. >> Great, thanks very much for having us today. >> Jeff: Absolutely. And joining him, I think all the way from North Carolina, Sam Werner, the VP of, and offering manager business line executive storage for IBM. Sam, great to see you as well. >> Great to be here, thank you. >> Absolutely. So let's jump into it. So Sam you're in North Carolina, I think that's where the Red Hat people are. You guys have Red Hat, a lot of conversations about containers, containers are going nuts. We know containers are going nuts and it was Docker and then Kubernetes. And really a lot of traction. Wonder if you can reflect on, on what you see from your point of view and how that impacts what you guys are working on. >> Yeah, you know, it's interesting. We talk, everybody hears about containers constantly. Obviously it's a hot part of digital transformation. What's interesting about it though is most of those initiatives are being driven out of business lines. I spend a lot of time with the people who do infrastructure management, particularly the storage teams, the teams that have to support all of that data in the data center. And they're struggling to be honest with you. These initiatives are coming at them, from application developers and they're being asked to figure out how to deliver the same level of SLAs the same level of performance, governance, security recovery times, availability. And it's a scramble for them to be quite honest they're trying to figure out how to automate their storage. They're trying to figure out how to leverage the investments they've made as they go through a digital transformation and keep in mind, a lot of these initiatives are accelerating right now because of this global pandemic we're living through. I don't know that the strategy's necessarily changed, but there's been an acceleration. So all of a sudden these storage people kind of trying to get up to speed or being thrown right into the mix. So we're working directly with them. You'll see, in some of our announcements, we're helping them, you know, get on that journey and provide the infrastructure their teams need. >> And a lot of this is driven by multicloud and hybrid cloud, which we're seeing, you know, a really aggressive move to before it was kind of this rush to public cloud. And that everybody figured out, "Well maybe public cloud isn't necessarily right for everything." And it's kind of this horses for courses, if you will, with multicloud and hybrid cloud, another kind of complexity thrown into the storage mix that you guys have to deal with. >> Yeah, and that's another big challenge. Now in the early days of cloud, people were lifting and shifting applications trying to get lower capex. And they were also starting to deploy DevOps, in the public cloud in order to improve agility. And what they found is there were a lot of challenges with that, where they thought lifting and shifting an application will lower their capital costs the TCO actually went up significantly. Where they started building new applications in the cloud. They found they were becoming trapped there and they couldn't get the connectivity they needed back into their core applications. So now we're at this point where they're trying to really, transform the rest of it and they're using containers, to modernize the rest of the infrastructure and complete the digital transformation. They want to get into a hybrid cloud environment. What we found is, enterprises get two and a half X more value out of the IT when they use a hybrid multicloud infrastructure model versus an all public cloud model. So what they're trying to figure out is how to piece those different components together. So you need a software-driven storage infrastructure that gives you the flexibility, to deploy in a common way and automate in a common way, both in a public cloud but on premises and give you that flexibility. And that's what we're working on at IBM and with our colleagues at Red Hat. >> So Eric, you've been in the business a long time and you know, it's amazing as it just continues to evolve, continues to evolve this kind of unsexy thing under the covers called storage, which is so foundational. And now as data has become, you know, maybe a liability 'cause I have to buy a bunch of storage. Now it is the core asset of the company. And in fact a lot of valuations on a lot of companies is based on its value, that's data and what they can do. So clearly you've got a couple of aces in the hole you always do. So tell us what you guys are up to at IBM to take advantage of the opportunity. >> Well, what we're doing is we are launching, a number of solutions for various workloads and applications built with a strong container element. For example, a number of solutions about modern data protection cyber resiliency. In fact, we announced last year almost a year ago actually it's only a year ago last week, Sam and I were on stage, and one of our developers did a demo of us protecting data in a container environment. So now we're extending that beyond what we showed a year ago. We have other solutions that involve what we do with AI big data and analytic applications, that are in a container environment. What if I told you, instead of having to replicate and duplicate and have another set of storage right with the OpenShift Container configuration, that you could connect to an existing external exabyte class data lake. So that not only could your container apps get to it, but the existing apps, whether they'll be bare-metal or virtualized, all of them could get to the same data lake. Wow, that's a concept saving time, saving money. One pool of storage that'll work for all those environments. And now that containers are being deployed in production, that's something we're announcing as well. So we've got a lot of announcements today across the board. Most of which are container and some of which are not, for example, LTO-9, the latest high performance and high capacity tape. We're announcing some solutions around there. But the bulk of what we're announcing today, is really on what IBM is doing to continue to be the leader in container storage support. >> And it's great, 'cause you talked about a couple of very specific applications that we hear about all the time. One obviously on the big data and analytics side, you know, as that continues to do, to kind of chase history of honor of ultimately getting the right information to the right people at the right time so they can make the right decision. And the other piece you talked about was business continuity and data replication, and to bring people back. And one of the hot topics we've talked to a lot of people about now is kind of this shift in a security threat around ransomware. And the fact that these guys are a little bit more sophisticated and will actually go after your backup before they let you know that they're into your primary storage. So these are two, really important market areas that we could see continue activity, as all the people that we talk to every day. You must be seeing the same thing. >> Absolutely we are indeed. You know, containers are the wave. I'm a native California and I'm coming to you from Silicon Valley and you don't fight the wave, you ride it. So at IBM we're doing that. We've been the leader in container storage. We, as you know, way back when we invented the hard drive, which is the foundation of almost this entire storage industry and we were responsible for that. So we're making sure that as container is the coming wave that we are riding that in and doing the right things for our customers, for our channel partners that support those customers, whether they be existing customers, and obviously, with this move to containers, is going to be some people searching for probably a new vendor. And that's something that's going to go right into our wheelhouse because of the things we're doing. And some of our capabilities, for example, with our FlashSystems, with our Spectrum Virtualize, we're actually going to be able to support CSI snapshots not only for IBM Storage, but our Spectrum Virtualize products supports over 500 different arrays, most of which aren't ours. So if you got that old EMC VNX2 or that HPE, 3PAR or aNimble or all kinds of other storage, if you need CSI snapshot support, you can get it from IBM, with our Spectrum Virtualize software that runs on our FlashSystems, which of course cuts capex and opex, in a heterogeneous environment, but gives them that advanced container support that they don't get, because they're on older product from, you know, another vendor. We're making sure that we can pull our storage and even our competitor storage into the world of containers and do it in the right way for the end user. >> That's great. Sam, I want to go back to you and talk about the relationship with the Red Hat. I think it was about a year ago, I don't have my notes in front of me, when IBM purchased Red Hat. Clearly you guys have been working very closely together. What does that mean for you? You've been in the business for a long time. You've been at IBM for a long time, to have a partner you know, kind of embed with you, with Red Hat and bringing some of their capabilities into your portfolio. >> It's been an incredible experience, and I always say my friends at Red Hat because we spend so much time together. We're looking at now, leveraging a community that's really on the front edge of this movement to containers. They bring that, along with their experience around storage and containers, along with the years and years of enterprise class storage delivery that we have in the IBM Storage portfolio. And we're bringing those pieces together. And this is a case of truly one plus one equals three. And you know, an example you'll see in this announcement is the integration of our data protection portfolio with their container native storage. We allow you to in any environment, take a snapshot of that data. You know, this move towards modern data protection is all about a movement to doing data protection in a different way which is about leveraging snapshots, taking instant copies of data that are application aware, allowing you to reuse and mount that data for different purposes, be able to protect yourself from ransomware. Our data protection portfolio has industry leading ransomware protection and detection in it. So we'll actually detect it before it becomes a problem. We're taking that, industry leading data protection software and we are integrating it into Red Hat, Container Native Storage, giving you the ability to solve one of the biggest challenges in this digital transformation which is backing up your data. Now that you're moving towards, stateful containers and persistent storage. So that's one area we're collaborating. We're working on ensuring that our storage arrays, that Eric was talking about, that they integrate tightly with OpenShift and that they also work again with, OpenShift Container Storage, the Cloud Native Storage portfolio from, Red Hat. So we're bringing these pieces together. And on top of that, we're doing some really, interesting things with licensing. We allow you to consume the Red Hat Storage portfolio along with the IBM software-defined Storage portfolio under a single license. And you can deploy the different pieces you need, under one single license. So you get this ultimate investment protection and ability to deploy anywhere. So we're, I think we're adding a lot of value for our customers and helping them on this journey. >> Yeah Eric, I wonder if you could share your perspective on multicloud management. I know that's a big piece of what you guys are behind and it's a big piece of kind of the real world as we've kind of gotten through the hype and now we're into production, and it is a multicloud world and it is, you got to manage this stuff it's all over the place. I wonder if you could speak to kind of how that challenge you know, factors into your design decisions and how you guys are about, you know, kind of the future. >> Well we've done this in a couple of ways in things that are coming out in this launch. First of all, IBM has produced with a container-centric model, what they call the Multicloud Manager. It's the IBM Cloud Pak for multicloud management. That product is designed to manage multiple clouds not just the IBM Cloud, but Amazon, Azure, et cetera. What we've done is taken our Spectrum Protect Plus and we've integrated it into the multicloud manager. So what that means, to save time, to save money and make it easier to use, when the customer is in the multicloud manager, they can actually select Spectrum Protect Plus, launch it and then start to protect data. So that's one thing we've done in this launch. The other thing we've done is integrate the capability of IBM Spectrum Virtualize, running in a FlashSystem to also take the capability of supporting OCP, the OpenShift Container Platform in a Clustered environment. So what we can do there, is on-premise, if there really was an earthquake in Silicon Valley right now, that OpenShift is sitting on a server. The servers just got crushed by the roof when it caved in. So you want to make sure you've got disaster recovery. So what we can do is take that OpenShift Container Platform Cluster, we can support it with our Spectrum Virtualize software running on our FlashSystem, just like we can do heterogeneous storage that's not ours, in this case, we're doing it with Red Hat. And then what we can do is to provide disaster recovery and business continuity to different cloud vendors not just to IBM Cloud, but to several cloud vendors. We can give them the capability of replicating and protecting that Cluster to a cloud configuration. So if there really was an earthquake, they could then go to the cloud, they could recover that Red Hat Cluster, to a different data center and run it on-prem. So we're not only doing the integration with a multicloud manager, which is multicloud-centric allowing ease of use with our Spectrum Protect Plus, but incase of a really tough situation of fire in a data center, earthquake, hurricane, whatever, the Red Hat OpenShift Cluster can be replicated out to a cloud, with our Spectrum Virtualize Software. So in most, in both cases, multicloud examples because in the first one of course the multicloud manager is designed and does support multiple clouds. In the second example, we support multiple clouds where our Spectrum Virtualize for public clouds software so you can take that OpenShift Cluster replicate it and not just deal with one cloud vendor but with several. So showing that multicloud management is important and then leverage that in this launch with a very strong element of container centricity. >> Right >> Yeah, I just want to add, you know, and I'm glad you brought that up Eric, this whole multicloud capability with, the Spectrum Virtualize. And I could see the same for our Spectrum Scale Family, which is our storage infrastructure for AI and big data. We actually, in this announcement have containerized the client making it very simple to deploy in Kubernetes Cluster. But one of the really special things about Spectrum Scale is it's active file management. This allows you to build out a file system not only on-premises for your, Kubernetes Cluster but you can actually extend that to a public cloud and it automatically will extend the file system. If you were to go into a public cloud marketplace which it's available in more than one, you can go in there click deploy, for example, in AWS Marketplace, click deploy it will deploy your Spectrum Scale Cluster. You've now extended your file system from on-prem into the cloud. If you need to access any of that data, you can access it and it will automatically cash you on locally and we'll manage all the file access for you. >> Yeah, it's an interesting kind of paradox between, you know, kind of the complexity of what's going on in the back end, but really trying to deliver simplicity on the front end. Again, this ultimate goal of getting the right data to the right person at the right time. You just had a blog post Eric recently, that you talked about every piece of data isn't equal. And I think it's really highlighted in this conversation we just had about recovery and how you prioritize and how you, you know, think about, your data because you know, the relative value of any particular piece might be highly variable, which should drive the way that you treated in your system. So I wonder if you can speak a little bit, you know, to helping people think about data in the right way. As you know, they both have all their operational data which they've always had, but now they've got all this unstructured data that's coming in like crazy and all data isn't created equal, as you said. And if there is an earthquake or there is a ransomware attack, you need to be smart about what you have available to bring back quickly. And maybe what's not quite so important. >> Well, I think the key thing, let me go to, you know a modern data protection term. These are two very technical terms was, one is the recovery time. How long does it take you to get that data back? And the second one is the recovery point, at what point in time, are you recovering the data from? And the reason those are critical, is when you look at your datasets, whether you replicate, you snap, you do a backup. The key thing you've got to figure out is what is my recovery time? How long is it going to take me? What's my recovery point. Obviously in certain industries you want to recover as rapidly as possible. And you also want to have the absolute most recent data. So then once you know what it takes you to do that, okay from an RPO and an RTO perspective, recovery point objective, recovery time objective. Once you know that, then you need to look at your datasets and look at what does it take to run the company if there really was a fire and your data center was destroyed. So you take a look at those datasets, you see what are the ones that I need to recover first, to keep the company up and rolling. So let's take an example, the sales database or the support database. I would say those are pretty critical to almost any company, whether you'd be a high-tech company, whether you'd be a furniture company, whether you'd be a delivery company. However, there also is probably a database of assets. For example, IBM is a big company. We have buildings all over, well, guess what? We don't lease a chair or a table or a whiteboard. We buy them. Those are physical assets that the company has to pay, you know, do write downs on and all this other stuff, they need to track it. If we close a building, we need to move the desk to another building. Like even if we leasing a building now, the furniture is ours, right? So does an asset database need to be recovered instantaneously? Probably not. So we should focus on another thing. So let's say on a bank. Banks are both online and brick and mortar. I happened to be a Wells Fargo person. So guess what? There's Wells Fargo banks, two of them in the city I'm in, okay? So, the assets of the money, in this case now, I don't think the brick and mortar of the building of Wells Fargo or their desks in there but now you're talking financial assets or their high velocity trading apps. Those things need to be recovered almost instantaneously. And that's what you need to do when you're looking at datasets, is figure out what's critical to the business to keep it up and rolling, what's the next most critical. And you do it in basically the way you would tear anything. What's the most important thing, what's the next most important thing. It doesn't matter how you approach your job, how you used to approach school, what are the classes I have to get an A and what classes can I not get an A and depending on what your major was, all that sort of stuff, you're setting priorities, right? And the dataset, since data is the most critical asset of any company, whether it's a Global Fortune 500 or whether it's Herzog Cigar Store, all of those assets, that data is the most valuable. So you've got to make sure, recover what you need as rapidly as you need it. But you can't recover all of it. You just, there's just no way to do that. So that's why you really ranked the importance of the data to use sameware, with malware and ransomware. If you have a malware or ransomware attack, certain data you need to recover as soon as you can. So if there, for example, as a, in fact there was one Jeff, here in Silicon Valley as well. You've probably read about the University of California San Francisco, ended up having to pay over a million dollars of ransom because some of the data related to COVID research University of California, San Francisco, it was the health care center for the University of California in Northern California. They are working on COVID and guess what? The stuff was held for ransom. They had no choice, but to pay them. And they really did pay, this is around end of June, of this year. So, okay, you don't really want to do that. >> Jeff: Right >> So you need to look at everything from malware and ransomware, the importance of the data. And that's how you figure this stuff out, whether be in a container environment, a traditional environment or virtualized environment. And that's why data protection is so important. And with this launch, not only are we doing the data protection we've been doing for years, but now taking it to the heart of the new wave, which is the wave of containers. >> Yeah, let me add just quickly on that Eric. So think about those different cases you talked about. You're probably going to want for your mission critically. You're going to want snapshots of that data that can be recovered near instantaneously. And then, for some of your data, you might decide you want to store it out in cloud. And with Spectrum Protect, we just announced our ability to now store data out in Google cloud. In addition to, we already supported AWS Azure IBM Cloud, in various on-prem object stores. So we already provided that capability. And then we're in this announcement talking about LTL-9. And you got to also be smart about which data do you need to keep, according to regulation for long periods of time, or is it just important to archive? You're not going to beat the economics nor the safety of storing data out on tape. But like Eric said, if all of your data is out on tape and you have an event, you're not going to be able to restore it quickly enough at least the mission critical things. And so those are the things that need to be in snapshot. And that's one of the main things we're announcing here for Kubernetes environments is the ability to quickly snapshot application aware backups, of your mission critical data in your Kubernetes environments. It can very quickly to be recovered. >> That's good. So I'll give you the last word then we're going to sign off, we are out of time, but I do want to get this in it's 2020, if I didn't ask the COVID question, I would be in big trouble. So, you know, you've all seen the memes and the jokes about really COVID being an accelerant to digital transformation, not necessarily change, but certainly a huge accelerant. I mean, you guys have a, I'm sure a product roadmap that's baked pretty far and advanced, but I wonder if you can speak to, you know, from your perspective, as COVID has accelerated digital transformation you guys are so foundational to executing that, you know, kind of what is it done in terms of what you're seeing with your customers, you know, kind of the demand and how you're seeing this kind of validation as to an accelerant to move to these better types of architectures? Let's start with you Sam. >> Yeah, you know I, and I think i said this, but I mean the strategy really hasn't changed for the enterprises, but of course it is accelerating it. And I see storage teams more quickly getting into trouble, trying to solve some of these challenges. So we're working closely with them. They're looking for more automation. They have less people in the data center on-premises. They're looking to do more automation simplify the management of the environment. We're doing a lot around Ansible to help them with that. We're accelerating our roadmaps around that sort of integration and automation. They're looking for better visibility into their environments. So we've made a lot of investments around our storage insights SaaS platform, that allows them to get complete visibility into their data center and not just in their data center. We also give them visibility to the stores they're deploying in the cloud. So we're making it easier for them to monitor and manage and automate their storage infrastructure. And then of course, if you look at everything we're doing in this announcement, it's about enabling our software and our storage infrastructure to integrate directly into these new Kubernetes, initiatives. That way as this digital transformation accelerates and application developers are demanding more and more Kubernetes capabilities. They're able to deliver the same SLAs and the same level of security and the same level of governance, that their customers expect from them, but in this new world. So that's what we're doing. If you look at our announcement, you'll see that across, across the sets of capabilities that we're delivering here. >> Eric, we'll give you the last word, and then we're going to go to Eric Cigar Shop, as soon as this is over. (laughs) >> So it's clearly all about storage made simple, in a Kubernetes environment, in a container environment, whether it's block storage, file storage, whether it be object storage and IBM's goal is to offer ever increasing sophisticated services for the enterprise at the same time, make it easier and easier to use and to consume. If you go back to the old days, the storage admins manage X amount of gigabytes, maybe terabytes. Now the same admin is managing 10 petabytes of data. So the data explosion is real across all environments, container environments, even old bare-metal. And of course the not quite so new anymore virtualized environments. The admins need to manage that more and more easily and automated point and click. Use AI based automated tiering. For example, we have with our Easy Tier technology, that automatically moves data when it's hot to the fastest tier. And when it's not as hot, it's cool, it pushes down to a slower tier, but it's all automated. You point and you click. Let's take our migration capabilities. We built it into our software. I buy a new array, I need to migrate the data. You point, you click, and we automatic transparent migration in the background on the fly without taking the servers or the storage down. And we always favor the application workload. So if the application workload is heavy at certain times a day, we slow the migration. At night for sake of argument, If it's a company that is not truly 24 by seven, you know, heavily 24 by seven, and at night, it slows down, we accelerate the migration. All about automation. We've done it with Ansible, here in this launch, we've done it with additional integration with other platforms. So our Spectrum Scale for example, can use the OpenShift management framework to configure and to grow our Spectrum Scale or elastic storage system clusters. We've done it, in this case with our Spectrum Protect Plus, as you saw integration into the multicloud manager. So for us, it's storage made simple, incredibly new features all the time, but at the same time we do that, make sure that it's easier and easier to use. And in some cases like with Ansible, not even the real storage people, but God forbid, that DevOps guy messes with a storage and loses that data, wow. So by, if you're using something like Ansible and that Ansible framework, we make sure that essentially the DevOps guy, the test guy, the analytics guy, basically doesn't lose the data and screw up the storage. And that's a big, big issue. So all about storage made simple, in the right way with incredible enterprise features that essentially we make easy and easy to use. We're trying to make everything essentially like your iPhone, that easy to use. That's the goal. And with a lot less storage admins in the world then there has been an incredible storage growth every single year. You'd better make it easy for the same person to manage all that storage. 'Cause it's not shrinking. It is, someone who's sitting at 50 petabytes today, is 150 petabytes the next year and five years from now, they'll be sitting on an exabyte of production data, and they're not going to hire tons of admins. It's going to be the same two or four people that were doing the work. Now they got to manage an exabyte, which is why this storage made simplest is such a strong effort for us with integration, with the Open, with the Kubernetes frameworks or done with OpenShift, heck, even what we used to do in the old days with vCenter Ops from VMware, VASA, VAAI, all those old VMware tools, we made sure tight integration, easy to use, easy to manage, but sophisticated features to go with that. Simplicity is really about how you manage storage. It's not about making your storage dumb. People want smarter and smarter storage. Do you make it smarter, but you make it just easy to use at the same time. >> Right. >> Well, great summary. And I don't think I could do a better job. So I think we'll just leave it right there. So congratulations to both of you and the teams for these announcement after a whole lot of hard work and sweat went in, over the last little while and continued success. And thanks for the, check in, always great to see you. >> Thank you. We love being on theCUBE as always. >> All right, thanks again. All right, he's Eric, he was Sam, I'm I'm Jeff, you're watching theCUBE. We'll see you next time, thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Narrator: From around the globe. It's The CUBE, with digital coverage of AWS public sector online, (upbeat music) brought to you by, Amazon Web Services. >> Everyone welcome back to The CUBE virtual coverage, of AWS public sector summit online. I'm John Furrier, your host of The CUBE. Normally we're in person, out on Asia-Pacific, and all the different events related to public sector. But this year we have to do it remote, and we're going to do the remote virtual CUBE, with Data Virtual Public Sector Online Summit. And we have two great guests here, about Digital Earth Africa project, Clive Charlton. Head of Solutions Architecture, Sub-Saharan Africa with AWS, Clive thanks for coming on, and Aditya Agrawal founder of D4DInsights, and also the advisor for the Digital Earth Africa project with AWS. So gentlemen, thank you for coming on. Appreciate you coming on remotely. >> Thanks for having us. >> Thank you for having us, John. >> So Clive take us through real quickly. Just take a minute to describe what is the Digital Earth Africa Project. What are the problems, that you're aiming to solve? >> Well, we're really aiming to provide, actionable data to governments, and organization around Africa, by providing satellite imagery, in an easy to use format, and doing that on the cloud, that serves countries throughout Africa. >> And just from a cloud perspective, give us a quick taste of what's going on, just with the tech, it's on Amazon. You got a little satellite action. Is there ground station involved? Give us a little bit more color around, you know, what's the scope of the project. >> Yeah, so, historically speaking you'd have to process satellite imagery down link it, and then do some heavy heavy lifting, around the processing of the data. Digital Earth Africa was built, from the experiences from Digital Earth Australia, originally developed by a Geo-sciences Australia and they use container services for Kubernetes's called Elastic Kubernetes Service to spin up virtual machines, which we are required to process the raw satellite imagery, into a format called a Cloud Optimized GeoTIFF. This format is used to store very large volumes of data in a format that's really easy to query. So, organizations can just use NHTTP get range request. Just a query part of the file, that they're interested in, which means, the results are served much, much quicker, from much, much better overall experience, under the hood, the store where the data is stored in the Amazon Simple Storage Service, which is S3, and the Metadata Index in a Relational Database Service, that runs the Open Data CUBE Library, which is allows Digital Earth Africa, to store this data in both space and time. >> It's interesting. I just did a, some interviews last week, on a symposium on space and cybersecurity, and we were talking about , the impact of satellites and GPS and just the overall infrastructure shift. And it's just another part of the edge of the network. Aditya, I want to get your thoughts on this, and your reaction to the Digital Earth, cause you're an advisor. Let's zoom out. What's the impact of people's lives? Give us a quick overview, of how you see it playing out because, explaining to someone, who doesn't know anything about the project, like, okay what is it about, and how does it actually impact people? >> Sure. So, you know, as, as Clive mentioned, I mean there's, there's definitely a, a digital infrastructure behind Digital Earth Africa, in a way that it's going to be able to serve free and open satellite data. And often the, the issue around satellite data, especially within the context of Africa, and other parts of the world is that there's a level of capacity that's required, in order to be able to use that data. But there's also all kinds of access issues, because, traditionally satellite data is heavy. There's the old model of being able to download the data and then being able to do something with it. And then often about 80% of the time, that you spend on satellite data is spent, just pre processing the data, before you can actually, do any of the fun analysis around it, that really sort of impacts the kinds of decisions and actions that you're looking for. And so that's why Digital Earth Africa. And that's why this partnership, with Amazon is a fantastic partnership, because it really allows us, to be able, to scale the approach across the entire continent, make it easy for that data to be accessed and make it easier for people to be able to use that data. The way that Digital Earth Africa is being operationalized, is that we're not just looking at it, from the perspective of, let's put another infrastructure into Africa. We want this program, and it is a program, that we want institutionalized within Africa itself. One that leverages expertise across the continent, and one that brings in organizations across the continent to really sort of take the leadership and ownership of this program as it moves forward. The idea of it is that, once you're able to have this information, being able to address issues like food security, climate change, coastal resilience, land degradation where illegal mining is, where is the water? We want to be able to do that, in a way that it's really looking at what are the national development priorities within the countries themselves, and how does it also then support regional and global frameworks like Africa's Agenda 2063 and the sustainable development goals. >> No doubt in my mind, obviously, is that huge benefits to these kinds of technologies. I want to also just ask you, as a follow up is a huge space race going on, right now, explosion of availability of satellite data. And again, more satellites going up, There's more congestion, more contention. Again, we had a big event on that cybersecurity, and the congestion issue, but, you know, satellite data was power everyone here in the United States, you want an Uber, you want Google Maps you've got your everywhere with GPS, without it, we'd be kind of like (laughing), wondering what's going on. How do we even vote these days? So certainly an impact, but there's a huge surge of availability, of the use of satellite data. How do you explain this? And what are some of the challenges, from the data side that's coming, from the Digital Earth Africa project that you guys hope to resolve? >> Sure. I mean, that's a great question. I mean, I think at one level, when you're looking at the space race right now, satellites are becoming cheaper. They're becoming more efficient. There's increased technology now, on the types of sensors that you can deploy. There's companies like Planet, that are really revolutionizing how even small countries are able to deploy their own satellites, and the constellation that they're putting forward, in terms of the frequency by which, you're able to get data, for any given part of the earth on a daily basis, coupled with that. And you know, this is really sort of in climbs per view, but the cloud computing capabilities, and overall computing power that you have today, then what you had 10 years, 15 years ago is so vastly different. What used to take weeks to do before, for any kind of analysis on satellite data, which is heavy data now takes, you know, minutes or hours to do. So when you put all that together, again, you know, I think it really speaks, to the power of this partnership with Amazon and really, what that means, for how this data is going to be delivered to Africa, because it really allows for the scalability, for anything that happens through Digital Earth Africa. And so, for example, one of the approaches, that we're taking us, we identify what the priorities, and needs are at the country level. Let's say that it's a land degradation, there's often common issues across countries. And so when we can take one particular issue, tested with additional countries, and then we can scale it across the whole continent because the infrastructure is there for the whole continent. >> Yeah. That's a great point. So many storylines here. We'll get to climb in a second on sustainability. And I want to talk about the Open Data Platform. Obviously, open data, having data is one thing, but now train data, and having more trusted data becomes a huge issue. Again, I want to dig into that for a second, but, Clive, I want to ask you, first, what region are we in? I mean, is this, you guys actually have a great, first of all, we've been covering the region expansion from Bahrain all the way, as moves around the world, probably soon in space. There'll be a region Amazon space station region probably, someday in the future but, what region are you running the project out of? Can you, and why is it important? Can you share the update on the regional piece? >> Well, we're very pleased, that Digital Earth Africa, is using the new Africa region in Cape Town, in South Africa, which was launched in April of this year. It's one of 24 regions around the world and we have another three new regions announced, what this means for users of Digital Earth Africa is, they're able to use region closest to them, which gives them the best user experience. It's the, it's the quickest connection for them. But more importantly, we also wanted to use, an African solution, for African people and using the Africa region in Cape Town, really aligned with that thinking. >> So, localization on the data, latency, all that stuff is kind of within the region, within country here. Right? >> That's right, Yeah >> And why is that important? Is there any other benefits? Why should someone care? Obviously, this failover option, I mean, in any other countries to go to, but why is having something, in that region important for this project? >> Well, it comes down to latency for the, for the users. So, being as close to the data, as possible is, is really important, for the user experience. Especially when you're looking at large data sets, and big queries. You don't want to be, you don't want to be waiting a long lag time, for that query to go backwards and forwards, between the user and the region. So, having the data, in the Africa region in Cape Town is important. >> So it's about the region, I love when these new regions rollout from Amazon, Cause obviously it's this huge buildup CapEx, in this huge data center servers and everything. Sustainability is a huge part of the story. How does the sustainability piece fit into the, the data initiative supported in Africa? Can you share some updates on that? >> Well, this, this project is also closely aligned with the, Amazon Sustainability Data Initiative, which looks to accelerate sustainability research. and innovation, really by minimizing the cost, and the time required to acquire, and analyze large sustainability datasets. So the initiative supports innovators, and researchers with the data and tools, and, and technical experience, that they need to move sustainability, to the next level. These are public datasets and publicly available to anyone. In addition, to that, the initiative provides cloud grants to those who are interested in exploring, exploring the use of AWS technology and scalable infrastructure, to serve sustainability challenges, of this nature. >> Aditya, I want to hear your thoughts, on this comment that Clive made around latency, and certainly having a region there has great benefits. You don't need to hop on that. Everyone knows I'm a big fan of the regional model, but it brings up the issue, of what's going on in the country, from an infrastructure standpoint, a lot of mobility, a lot of edge computing. I can almost imagine that. So, so how do you see that evolving, from a business standpoint, from a project standpoint data standpoint, can you comment and react to that edge, edge angle? >> Yeah, I mean, I think, I think that, the value of an open data infrastructure, is that, you want to use that infrastructure, to create a whole data ecosystem type of an approach. And so, from the perspective of being able. to make this data readily accessible, making it efficiently accessible, and really being able to bring industry, into that ecosystem, because of what we really want as we, as the program matures, is for this program, to then also instigate the development of new businesses, entrepreneurship, really get the young people across Africa, which has the largest proportion of young people, anywhere in the world, to be engaged around what you can do, with satellite data, and the types of businesses that can be developed around it. And, so, by having all of our data reside in Cape Town on the continent there's obviously technical benefits, to that in terms of, being able to apply the data, and create new businesses. There's also a, a perception in the fact that, the data that Digital Earth Africa is serving, is in Africa and residing in Africa which does have, which does go a long way. >> Yeah. And that's a huge value. And I can just imagine the creativity cloud, if you can comment on this open data platform idea, because some of the commentary that we've been having on The CUBE here, and all around the world is data's great. We all know we're living with a lot of data, you starting to see that, the commoditization and horizontal scalability of data, is one thing, but to put it into software defined environments, whether, it's an entrepreneur coding up an app, or doing something to share some transparency, around some initiatives going on within the region or on the continent, it's about trusted data. It's about sharing algorithms. AI is also a consumer of data, machines consume data. So, it's not just the technology data, is part of this new normal. What's this Open Data Platform, And how does that translate into value in your opinion? >> I, yeah. And you know, when, when data is shared on, on AWS anyone can analyze it and build services on top of it, using a broad range of compute and data to data analytics products, you know, things like Amazon EC2, or Lambda, which is all serverless compute, to things like Amazon Elastic MapReduce, for complex extract and transformation processes, but sharing data in the cloud, lets users, spend more time on the data analysis, rather than, than the data acquisition. And researchers can analyze data shared on AWS, without needing to pay to store their own copy, which is what the Open Data Platform provides. You only have to pay for the compute that you use and you don't need to purchase storage, to start a new project. So the registry of the open data on AWS, makes it easy to find those datasets, but, by making them publicly available through AWS services. And when you share, share your data on AWS, you make it available, to a large and growing community of developers, and startups, and enterprises, all around the world. And you know, and we've been talking particularly around, around Africa. >> Yeah. So it's an open source model, basically, it's free. You don't, it doesn't cost you anything probably, just started maybe down the road, if it gets heavy, maybe to charging but the most part easy for scientists to use and then you're leveraging it into the open, contributing back. Is that right? >> Yep. That's right. To me getting, getting researchers, and startups, and organizations growing quickly, without having to worry about the data acquisition, they can just get going and start building. >> I want to get back to Aditya, on this skill gap issue, because you brought up something that, I thought was really cool. People are going to start building apps. I'm going to start to see more innovation. What are the needs out there? Because we're seeing a huge onboarding of new talent, young talent, people rescaling from existing jobs, certainly COVID accelerated, people looking for more different kinds of work. I'm sure there's a lot of (laughing) demand to, to do some innovative things. The question I always get, and want to get your reaction is, what are the skills needed to, to get involved, to one contribute, but also benefit from it, whether it's the data satellite, data or just how to get involved skill-wise >> Sure. >> Yes. >> Yeah. So most recently we've created a six week training course. That's really kind of taken users from understanding, the basics of Earth Observation Data, to how to work, with Python, to how to create their own Jupyter notebooks, and their own Use cases. And so there's a, there's a wide sort of range of skill sets, that are required depending on who you are because, effectively, what we want to be able to do is get everyone from, kind of the technical user, that might have some remote sensing background to the developer, to the policy maker, and decision maker, to understand the value of this infrastructure, whether you're the one who's actually analyzing the data. If you're the one who's developing new applications, or you're taking that information from a managerial or policy level discussion to actually deliver the action and sort of impact that you're looking for. And so, you know, in, in that regard, we're working with ITC in the Netherlands and again, with institutions across Africa, that already have a mandate, and expertise in this particular area, to create a holistic capacity development program, that will address all of those different factors. >> So I guess the follow up question I want to have is, how do you ensure the priorities of Africa are addressed, as part of this program? >> Yeah, so, we are, we've created a governance model, that really is both top down, and bottom up. At the bottom up level, We have a technical advisory committee, that has over 15 institutions, many of which are based across Africa, that really have a good understanding of the needs, the priorities, and the mandate for how to work with countries. And at the top down level, we're developing a governing board, that will be inclusive, of the key continental level institutions, that really provide the political buy-in, the sustainability of the program, and really provide overall guidance. And within that, we're also creating an operational models, such that these institutions, that do have the capacity to support the program, they're actually the ones, who are also going to be supporting, the implementation of the program itself. >> And there's been some United Nations, sustained development projects all kinds of government involvement, around making sure certain things would happen, within the country. Can you just share, some of the highlights, or some of the key initiatives, that are going on, that you're supporting, to make it a better, better world? >> Yeah. So this is, this program is very closely aligned to a sustainable development agenda. And so looking after, looking developing methods, that really address, the sustainable development goals as one facet, in Africa, there's another program looking overall, overall national development priorities and sustainability called the Agenda 2063. And really like, I think what it really comes down to this, this wouldn't be happening, without the country level involvement themselves. So, this started with five countries, originally, Senegal, Ghana, Kenya, Tanzania, and the government of Kenya itself, has really been, a kind of a founding partner for, how Digital Earth Africa and it's predecessor of Africa Regional Data Cube, came to be. And so without high level support, and political buying within those governments, I mean, it's really because of that. That's why we're, we're where we are. >> I need you to thank you for coming on and sharing that insight. Clive will give you the final word, for the folks watching Digital Earth Africa, processes, petabytes of data. I mean the satellite data as well, huge, you mentioned it's a new region. You're running Kubernetes, Elastic Kubernetes Service, making containers easy to use, pay as you go. So you get cutting edge, take the one minute to, to share why this region's cutting edge. Does it have the scale of other regions? What should they know about AWS, in Cape Town, for Africa's new region? Take a minute to, to put plugin. >> Yeah, thank you for that, John. So all regions are built in the, in the same way, all around the world. So they're built for redundancy and reliability. They typically have a minimum of three, what we call Availability Zones. And each one is a contains a, a cluster of, of data centers, and all interconnected with fast fiber. So, you know, you can survive, you know, a failure with with no impact to your services. And the Cape Town region is built in exactly the same the same way, we have most of the services available in the, in the Cape Town region, like most other regions. So, as a user of AWS, you, you can have the confidence that, You can deploy your services and workloads, into AWS and run it in the same in the same way, with the same kind of speed, and the same kind of support, and infrastructure that's backing any region, anywhere else in the world. >> Well great. Thanks for that plug, Aditya, thank you for your insight. And again, innovation follows cloud computing, whether you're building on top of it as a startup a government or enterprise, or the big society better, in this case, the Digital Earth Africa project. Great. A great story. Thank you for sharing. I appreciate it. >> Thank you for having us. >> Thank you for having us, John >> I'm John Furrier with, The CUBE, virtual remote, not in person this year. I hope to see you next time in person. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music) (upbeat music decreases)

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with coverage of Coop con and cloud, native con Europe 2020 Virtual brought to you by Red Hat, The Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners >>Welcome back. This is the Cube coverage of Cube Con Cloud, native con, the European show for 2020. I'm your host to Minuteman. And when we talk about the container world, we talk about what's happening in cloud. Native storage has been one of those sticking points. One of those things that you know has been challenging, that we've been looking to mature and really happy to welcome back to the program two of our cube alumni to give us the update on the state of storage for the container world. Both of them are oh, founders and CEOs. First of all, we have Xiang Yang from Rancher Labs, of course, was recently acquired by Sue Save it and the intention to acquire on and also joining us from early the relay. Who is with port works? Shang Amerli. Thanks so much for joining us. Thank you. Thank you. Alright. So early. I actually I'm going to start with you just cause you know we've seen, you know, a couple of waves of companies working on storage. In this environment, we know storage is difficult. Um, And when we change how we're building things, there's architectural things that can happen. Eso maybe if you could just give us a snapshot, you know, Port works, you know, was created to help unpack this. You know, straight on here in 2020 you know, where you see things in the overall kind of computer storage landscape? >>Absolutely. Still, before I kind of jump into port works. I just want to take a minute to publicly congratulate the the whole rancher team, and and Shang and Shannon And will China have known those folks for a while there? They're kind of true entrepreneurs. They represent the serial entrepreneur spirit that that so many folks know in the valley, and so, you know, great outcome for them. We're very happy for them and ah, big congrats and shout out to the whole team. What works is is a little over five years old, and we've been kind of right from the inception of the company recognized that to put containers in production, you're gonna have to solve, not just the orchestration problem. But the issue of storage and data orchestration and so in a natural kubernetes orchestrates containers and what works orchestrates storage and data. And more specifically, by doing that, what we enable is enterprises to be able to take APS that are containerized into production at scale and and have high availability. Disaster recovery, backup all of the things that for decades I t has had to do and has done to support application, reliability and availability. But essentially we're doing it for purpose with the purpose build solution for containerized workloads. >>Alright, shaming. Of course, storage is a piece of the overall puzzle that that ranchers trying to help with. Maybe if you could just refresh our audience on Longhorn, which your organization has its open source. It's now being managed by the CN. CF is my understanding. So help us bring Longhorn into the discussion >>thanks to. So I'm really glad to be here. We've I think rancher and port work started about the same time, and we started with a slightly different focus. More is exactly right to get containers going, you really need both so that the computer angle orchestrating containers as well as orchestrating the storage and the data. So rancher started with, ah, it's slightly stronger focus on orchestrating containers themselves, but pretty quickly, we realized, as adoption of containers grow, we really need it to be able to handle ah, storage feather. And like any new technology, you know, uh, Kubernetes and containers created some interesting new requirements and opportunities, and at the time, really, they weren't. Ah, a lot of good technologies available, you know, technologies like rook and SEF at the time was very, very premature, I think, Ah, the You know, we actually early on try to incorporate ah, the cluster technology. And it was just it was just not easy. And And at the time I think port Works was, ah, very busy developing. Ah, what turned out to be there flagship product, which we end up, end up, uh, partnering very, very closely. But but early on, we really had no choice but to start developing our own storage technology. So Long horn. As a piece of container storage technology, it's actually almost as oh, there's rancher itself. When about funding engineers, we hired he he ended up, you know, working on it and Then over the years, you know the focus shift that I think the original version was written in C plus plus, and over the years it's now being completely re written in Golan. It was originally written more for Docker workload. Now, of course, everything is kubernetes centric. And last year we you know, we we decided to donate the Longhorn Open Source project to CN CF. And now it's a CN CF sandbox project, and the adoption is just growing really quickly. And just earlier this year, we we finally ah decided to we're ready to offer a commercial support for it. So So that's that's where rancher is. And with longhorn and container storage technology. >>Yeah, it has been really interesting to watch in this ecosystem. A couple of years ago, one of the Q con shows I was talking to people coming out of the Believe It was the Sigs, the special interest group for storage, and it was just like, Wow, it was heated. Words were, you know, back and forth. There's not a lot of agreement there. Anybody that knows the storage industry knows that you know standards in various ways of doing things often are contentious and there's there's differences of opinion. Look at the storage industry. You know, there's a reason why there's so many different solutions out there. So maybe it love to hear from early. From your standpoint, things are coming to get a little bit more. There are still a number of options out there. So you know, why is this kind of coop petition? I actually good for the industry? >>Yeah, I think this is a classic example of Coop petition. Right? Let's let's start with the cooperation part right? The first part of time the you know, the early days of CN, CF, and even sort of the Google Communities team, I think, was really very focused on compute and and subsequent years. In the last 34 years, there's been a greater attention to making the whole stack works, because that's what it's going to take to take a the enterprise class production and put it in, you know, enterprise class application and put it in production. So extensions like C and I for networking and CS I container storage interface. We're kind of put together by a working group and and ah ah you know both both in the CN CF, but also within the kubernetes Google community. That's you talked about six storage as an example. And, you know, as always happens, right? Like it It looks a little bit in the early days. Like like a polo game, right where folks are really? Ah, you know, seemingly, uh, you know, working with each other on on top of the pool. But underneath they're kicking each other furiously. But that was a long time back, and we've graduated from then into really cooperating. And I think it's something we should all be proud of. Where now the CS I interface is really a A really very, very strong and complete solution tow, allowing communities to orchestrate storage and data. So it's really strengthened both communities and the kubernetes ecosystem. Now the competition part. Let's kind of spend. I want to spend a couple of minutes on that too, right? Um, you know, one of the classic things that people sometimes confuse is the difference between an overlay and an interface. CSC is wonderful because it defines how the two layers off essentially kind of old style storage. You know, whether it's a san or ah cloud, elastic storage bucket or all of those interact with community. So the the definition of that interface kind of lay down some rules and parameters for how that interaction should happen. However, you still always need an overlay like Port Works that that actually drives that interface and enables Kubernetes to actually manage that storage. And that's where the competition is. And, you know, she mentioned stuff and bluster and rook and kind of derivatives of those. And I think those have been around really venerable and and really excellent products for born in a different era for a different time open stack, object storage and all of that not really meant for kind of primary workloads. And they've been they've been trying to be adapted for, for for us, for this kind of workload. Port Works is really a built from right from the inception to be designed for communities and for kubernetes workloads at enterprise scale. And so I think, you know, as I as I look at the landscape, we welcome the fact that there are so many more people acknowledging that there is a vital need for data orchestration on kubernetes right, that that's why everybody and their brother now has a CS I interface. However, I think there's a big difference between having an interface. This is actually having the software that provides the functionality for H. A, D R. And and for backup, as as the kind of life cycle matures and doing it not just at scale, but in a way that allows kind of really significant removal or reduction off the storage admin role and replaces it with self service that is fully automated within communities. Yeah, if I >>can, you know, add something that that I completely agree. I mean, over the Longhorns been around for a long time. Like I said, I'm really happy that over the years it hasn't really impacted our wonderful collaborative partnership with what works. I mean, Poll works has always been one of our premier partners. We have a lot of, ah, common customers in this fight. I know these guys rave about what works. I don't think they'll ever get out for works. Ah, home or not? Uh huh. Exactly. Like Morissette, you know, in the in the storage space, there's interface, which a lot of different implementations can plugging, and that's kind of how rancher works. So we always tell people Rancher works with three types of storage implementations. One is let we call legacy storage. You know, your netapp, your DMC, your pure storage and those are really solid. But they were not suddenly not designed to work with containers to start with, but it doesn't matter. They've all written CS I interfaces that would enable containers to take advantage of. The second type is some of the cloud a block storage or file storage services like EBS, GFS, Google Cloud storage and support for these storage back and the CS I drivers practically come with kubernetes itself, so those are very well supported. But there's still a huge amount of opportunities for the third type of you know, we call container Native Storage. So that is where Port Works and the Longhorn and other solutions like open EBS storage OS. All these guys fitting is a very vibrant ecosystem of innovation going on there. So those solutions are able to create basically reliable storage from scratch. You know, when you from from just local disks and they're actually also able to add a lot of value on top of whatever traditional or cloud based, persistent storage you already have. So so the whole system, the whole ecosystem, is developing very quickly. A lot of these solutions work with each other, and I think to me it's really less of a competition or even Coop petition. It's really more off raising the bar for for the capabilities so that we can accelerate the amount of workload that's been moved onto this wonderful kubernetes platform in the end of the benefit. Everyone, >>Well, I appreciate you both laying out some of the options, you know, showing just a quick follow up on that. I think back if you want. 15 years ago was often okay. I'm using my GMC for my block. I'm using my netapp for the file. I'm wondering in the cloud native space, if we expect that you might have multiple different data engine types in there you mentioned you know, I might want port works for my high performance. You said open EBS, very popular in the last CN CF survey might be another one there. So is do we think some of it is just kind of repeating itself that storage is not monolithic and in a micro service architecture. You know, different environments need different storage requirements. >>Yeah, I mean quick. I love to hear more is view as well, especially about you know, about how the ecosystem is developing. But from my perspective, just just the range of capabilities that's now we expect out of storage vendors or data management vendors is just increased tremendously. You know, in the old days, if you can store blocks to object store file, that's it. Right. So now it's this is just table stakes. Then then what comes after that? There will be 345 additional layers of requirements come all the way from backup, restore the our search indexing analytics. So I really think all of this potentially off or in the in the bucket of the storage ecosystem, and I just can't wait to see how this stuff will play out. I think we're still very, very early stages, and and there, you know what? What, what what containers did is they made fundamentally the workload portable, but the data itself still holds a lot of gravity. And then just so much work to do to leverage the fundamental work load portability. Marry that with some form of universal data management or data portability. I think that would really, uh, at least the industry to the next level. Marie? >>Yeah. Shanghai Bean couldn't. Couldn't have said it better. Right? Let me let me let me kind of give you Ah, sample. Right. We're at about 160 plus customers now, you know, adding several by the month. Um, just with just with rancher alone, right, we are. We have common customers in all common video expedient Roche March X, Western Asset Management. You know, charter communications. So we're in production with a number off rancher customers. What are these customers want? And why are they kind of looking at a a a Port works class of solution to use, You know, Xiang's example of the multiple types, right? Many times, people can get started with something in the early days, which has a CS I interface with maybe say, $10 or 8 to 10 nodes with a solution that allows them to at least kind of verify that they can run the stack up and down with, say, you know, a a rancher type orchestrator, workloads that are containerized on and a network plug in and a storage plugging. But really, once they start to get beyond 20 notes or so, then there are problems that are very, very unique to containers and kubernetes that pop up that you don't see in a in a non containerized environment, right? Some. What are some of these things, right? Simple examples are how can you actually run 10 to hundreds of containers on a server, with each one of those containers belonging to a different application and having different requirements? How do you actually scale? Not to 16 nodes, which is sort of make typically, maybe Max of what a San might go to. But hundreds and thousands of notes, like many of our customers, are doing like T Mobile Comcast. They're running this thing at 600 thousands of notes or scale is one issue. Here is a critical critical difference that that something that's designed for Kubernetes does right. We are providing all off the storage functions that Shang just described at container granted, granularity versus machine granularity. One way to think about this is the old Data center was in machine based construct. Construct everything you know. VM Ware is the leader, sort of in that all of the way. You think of storage as villains. You think of compute and CPUs, everything. Sub sub nets, right? All off. Traditional infrastructure is very, very machine centric. What kubernetes and containers do is move it into becoming an app defined control plane, right? One of the things were super excited about is the fact that Kubernetes is really not just a container orchestrator, but actually a orchestrator for infrastructure in an app defined way. And by doing that, they have turned, uh, you know, control off the infrastructure via communities over to a kubernetes segment. The same person who uses rancher uses port works at NVIDIA, for example to manage storage as they use it, to manage the compute and to manage containers. And and that's marvellous, because now what has happened is this thing is now fully automated at scale and and actually can run without the intervention off a storage admin. No more trouble tickets, right? No more requests to say, Hey, give me another 20 terabytes. All of that happens automatically with the solution like port works. And in fact, if you think about it in the world of real time services that we're all headed towards right Services like uber now are expected in enterprises machine learning. Ai all of these things analytics that that change talk about are things that you expect to run in a fully automated way across vast amounts of data that are distributed sometimes in the edge. And you can't do that unless you're fully automated and and not really the storage admin intervention. And that's kind of the solution that we provide. >>Alright, well, we're just about out of time. If I could just last piece is, you know, early and saying to talk about where we are with long for and what we should expect to see through the rest of this year and get some early for you to you know, what differentiates port works from Just, you know, the open source version. So And maybe if we start with just kind of long or in general and then really from from your standpoint, >>yeah, so it's so so the go along one is really to lower the bar for folks to run state for workloads on on kubernetes we want you know, the the Longhorn is 100% open source and it's owned by CN cf now. So we in terms of features and functionalities is obviously a small subset of what a true enterprise grade solution like Port Works or, um, CEO on that that could provide. So there's just, you know, the storage role. Ah, future settle. The roadmap is very rich. I don't think it's not really Ranchers go Oh, our Longhorns goal to, you know, to try to turn itself into a into a plug in replacement for these enterprise, great storage or data management solutions. But But they're you know, there's some critical critical feature gaps that we need address. And that's what the team is gonna be focusing on, perhaps for the rest of the year. >>Yeah, uh, still, I would I would kind of, you know, echo what Chang said, right? I think folks make it started with solutions, like longer or even a plug in connector plug in with one of their existing storage vendors, whether it's pure netapp or or EMC from our viewpoint, that's wonderful, because that allows them to kind of graduate to where they're considering storage and data as part of the stack. They really should that's the way they're going to succeed by by looking at it as a whole and really with, You know, it's a great way to get started on a proof of concept architecture where your focus initially is very much on the orchestration and the container ization part. But But, as Xiang pointed out, you know what what rancher did, what I entered it for Kubernetes was build a simple, elegant, robust solution that kind of democratized communities. We're doing the same thing for communities storage right? What Port works does is have a solution that is simple, elegant, fully automated, scalable and robust. But more importantly, it's a complete data platform, right? We we go where all these solutions start, but don't kind of venture forward. We are a full, complete lifecycle management for data across that whole life cycle. So there's many many customers now are buying port works and then adding deal right up front, and then a few months later they might come back and I'd backup from ports. So two shanks point right because of the uniqueness of the kubernetes workload, because it is an app defined control plane, not machine to find what is happening is it's disrupting, Just like just like virtualization day. VM exist today because because they focused on a VM version off. You know, the their backup solution. So the same thing is happening. Kubernetes workloads are district causing disruption of the D r and backup and storage market with solutions like sports. >>Wonderful. Merlin Chang. Thank you so much for the updates. Absolutely. The promise of containers A Z you were saying? Really, is that that Atomic unit getting closer to the application really requires storage to be a full and useful solution. So great to see the progress that's being made. Thank you so much for joining us. >>Welcome, Shannon. We look forward to ah, working with you as you reach for the stars. Congratulations again. We look >>forward to the containing partnership morally and thank you. Still for the opportunity here. >>Absolutely great talking to both of you And stay tuned. Lots more coverage of the Cube Cube Con cloud, native con 2020 Europe. I'm stew minimum. And thank you for watching the Cube. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

>> Announcer: Live from San Francisco, it's theCUBE, covering Google Cloud Next '19. Brought to you by Google Cloud, and its ecosystem partners. >> We're back at Google Cloud Next, at the new, improved Moscone Center. This is day two of theCUBE's coverage of Google's big Cloud show. theCUBE is a leader in live tech coverage, my name is Dave Vellante, I'm here with my co-host Stu Miniman. John Furrier is walking the floor, checking out the booth space. Ranga Rangachari is here, he's the Vice President and General Manager of Cloud Storage and hyper-converged infrastructure at Red Hat. Ranga, good to see you again. >> Hi Dave, hi Stu, good to see you again too. >> Thanks for coming on, this show it's, it's growing nicely, good thing Moscone is new and improved. How's the show going for you? >> Show's going really good. I just had a chance to walk around the booths and a lot of interesting conversations and, the Red Hat booth too, there've been a lot of interesting conversations with customers. >> A lot of tailwinds these days for Red Hat. We talk about that a lot on theCUBE, this whole notion of hybrid cloud, you guys have been on that since the early days. >> Yeah. >> Multi-cloud, omni-cloud, hyper-converged infrastructure, it's in your title. It's like that all the moons are lining up for you guys, you know is it just luck, skill, great predictions powers, what's your take? >> Well, I mean, I think it's a combination of those, but more importantly, it's about listening to our customers. I think that's what gives us, today, the permission to talk to our customers about some of these things they're doing, because when we talk to them, it's not just about solving today's problems, but also where they're headed, and anticipating where they're going, and the ability to meet their needs. So is, I think. >> So the Google partnership, we were talking earlier, it started 10 years ago with the hypervisor. >> Yup. >> And it's really evolved. Where is it today, from your perspective? >> Well, I think it continues to, it continues to cooperate in the technical community very well, and a couple of data points, one is on Kubernetes, that started four, five years ago, and that's going really strong. But more importantly, as the industry matures, there are, what I would call, special interest groups that are starting to emerge in the Kubernetes community. One thing that we are paying very close attention to is the storage SIG, which is the ability to federate storage across multiple clouds, and how do you do it seamlessly within the framework of Kubernetes, as opposed to trying to create a hack, or a one-off that some vendors attempted to do. So we try to take a very wholistic view of it, and make sure, I mean the industry we are in is trying to drive volumes, and volumes drives standards, so I think we pay very, very close attention-- >> And the objective there is leave the data in place if possible, provide secure access and fast access, provide high-speed data movement if necessary, protect the data in motion. That is a complex problem. >> It is, and that's why I think it's very important that the community together solves the problem, not just one vendor. But it's about how do you facilitate, the holy grail is how do you facilitate data portability and application portability across these hybrid clouds. And a lot of the things that you talked about are part and parcel of that, but what users don't wanna do is stitch them together. They want a simple, easy way. And most common example that we often get asked is can I migrate my data from one cloud to the other, from on-prem to a public cloud beta based on certain policies. That's a prototypical example of how federated storage and other things can help with that. >> Ranga, bring us inside some of those customer conversations, 'cause we talk on theCUBE, we go back to, customers always say I want multi-vendor, yes, I don't want lock-in, portability is a good thing, but at the end of the day, some of these things, if it's some science experiment or if it's difficult, well, sometimes it's easier just to kind of stick on a similar environment. We know the core of Red Hat, it's if I build on top of rail, then I know it can work lots of places, so where are customers at, how does that fit in to this whole discussion of multi-cloud. >> So, what I can kind of give you a perspective of the hybrid cloud, the product strategy that we've been on for better part of a decade now, is around facilitating the hybrid cloud. So if you look at the open, or the storage nature of the data nature of the conversations, it's almost two sides of the same coin. Which is, the developers want storage to be invisible. They don't wanna be in the business of stitching their lungs and their zone masking all that stuff. But yet at the same time they want storage to be ubiquitous. So, they want it to be invisible, they want it to be ubiquitous. So that's one of the key themes that we are in from our customer. >> Come on, Ranga, you guys are announcing storage list this year, right? >> Yeah, (laughs) exactly. (laughs) So that's a great point. The other part that we are also seeing from our customer conversations is, I think, let me give you, kind of the Red Hat inside out perspective. Is any products, any thing that we release to the market, the first filter that we run through is will it help our customers with our open hybrid cloud journey? So that kind of becomes the filter for any new features we add, any go-to-market motion, so that there is a tremendous amount of impedance match if you will. Between where we're going and how customers can succeed with their open hybrid cloud journey. >> So, in thinking about some of the discussions you're having with customers on their hybrid cloud strategy, specifically, what are those conversations like, what are the challenges that they're having? It's a maturity spectrum, obviously, but what are you seeing at each level of the spectrum, and where are some of those execution, formulation and execution challenges? >> So, as the industry evolves and the technology matures, the conversation change, and 12, 24 months ago it was a dramatically different conversation. It was an all around help me get there. Now the conversation is people really understand, and most of our conversations that we see, and even the other industry players are seeing this, is the conversation starts with on-prem looking out, as opposed to a cloud looking in. So, customers say look I've invested a tremendous amount of assets, intellectual horsepower into building my on-prem infrastructure and make it solid, now give me the degree of freedom for me to move certain workloads to one or many of these public clouds. So that's kind of a huge shift in the conversations we have with the customers. If you click one or a couple of levels below, the conversation talks about things like security as you pointed out. How do you ensure that if I move my workload my overall corporate compliance stuff aren't anywhere compromised. So that's one aspect. The other aspect is manageability. Can it really manage this infrastructure from a proverbial single pane of glass. So now the conversations are less about more theoretical, it's more about I've started the journey help me make this journey successful. >> So when you talk about the perspective of, I've built up this on-prem infrastructure, I've invested a ton it in, and now help me connect, I can see a mindset that would say think cloud first. Of course, the practical reality says I've got all this tactical debt. So how much of that is gonna be a potential pitfall down the road for some of these companies, in your view? >> Well, I think it's not so much of a technical debt. In one way you could call it a technical debt, but the other aspect is how do you really leverage the investment that you've made without having to just say well I'm gonna do things differently. So, that's why I think the conversations we have with our customers are mutually beneficial, because we can help them, but the same token they can help us understand where some of the road blocks are. And through our products, through our services, we can help them circumvent or mitigate some of those-- >> And those assets aren't depreciated on the books, they've gotta get a return on them, right? >> So, Ranga, we know that one of the areas that Red Hat and Google end up working a lot together is in the Cloud Native Computing Foundation. >> Yep. >> Bring us up to speed as to where we are with that storage discussion, 'cause I think back to when Docker launched it was oh, it's gonna be wonderful and everything, but we all live through virtualization, and we had to fix networking and storage challenges here, and networking seemed to go a little further along and there's been a few different viewpoints as to how storage should be looked at in the containerized and the Kubernetes SDO world that we're moving towards today. >> So one example that illustrates storage being the center of this is there is a project called Rook.io. If you're familiar with this, think of it as kind of sitting between the storage infrastructure and Kubernetes. And that is taking on a tremendous amount of traction, not just in the community, but even within the CNCF. I could be wrong here, but my understanding it's a project that's in incubation phase right now. So we are seeing a lot of industry commitment to that Rook project, and you're gonna see real, live use cases where customers are now able to fulfill the vision of data portability and storage portability across these multiple hybrid clouds. >> So Kubernetes is obviously taking off, although again, it's a maturity level. Some customers are diving in, and others maybe not so much. What are you seeing is some of the potential blockers, how are people getting started? Can you just download the code and go? What are you seeing there? >> That's a very interesting question, because we look at it as projects versus products. And, Kubernetes is a project. Phenomenal amount of velocity, phenomenal amount of innovation. But once you deploy it in your production environment, things like security, things like life cycle management, all those things have to be in place before somebody deploys it. That's why, in OpenShift you've seen the tremendous amount of market acceptance we've have with OpenShift is a proof point that it is kind of the best Kubernetes out there, because it's enterprise ready, people can deploy it, people can use it, people can scale with it, and not be worried about things like life cycle management, things like security, all the things that come into play when you deal with an upstream project. So, what we've seen from a customer basis, people start to dabble, and they'll look at Kubernetes, what's going on, and understand where the areas of innovation are. But once they start to say look I've got it deployed for some serious workloads, they look at a vendor who can provide all the necessary ingredients for them to be successful. >> We're having a good discussion earlier about customer's perspectives, I wanna get as much out of that asset as I possibly can. You said something that interested me. I wanna go back to it. Is customers want options to be able to migrate to various clouds. My question is do you sense that that's because they wanna manage their risk, they want an exit strategy? Or, are they actively moving more than once. Maybe they wanna go once and then run in the cloud. Or are you seeing a lot of active movement of that data? >> I think the first order of bit in those discussions that are about the workloads, What workload do they wanna run? And once they decide this is the, for instance, with the Google Cloud, with the MLAI type of workloads, lend themselves very well to the Google Cloud infrastructure. So when a customer says look this is the workload I wanna run on-prem, but I want the elastic capability for me to run on one of these public clouds, often the decision criteria seems to be what workload it is and where's the best place to run it in. And then, you know, the rest of the stuff comes into play. >> So, Ranga, let's step back for a second. I come out of this show, Google Cloud this year, and I'm hearing open, multi-cloud, reminds me of words I've heard going to Red Hat, some every year. Help us to kind of squint through a little bit as to where Red Hat sits in the customer. If I'm the c-suite of an enterprise customer day, where Red Hat fits in the partnership with customers, and where the partners fit into that overall story. >> So, our view is let's look at it customer end. And practically every customer that we talk to wants to embark on an open hybrid cloud storage. And I wanna kind of stress on the open part of it, because it's the easier way to say okay let me go build a hybrid cloud. The more difficult part is how do you facilitate it through open hybrid cloud story. And that's the march, if you will, that we've been on for the last five plus years. And, that business strategy and the technology strategy has not, we've been unwavering in that. And, the partners are and they say we truly believe that for us to be successful, for our customers to be successful, we need an ecosystem of partners. And the cloud providers are absolutely a critical ingredient and a critical component of the overall strategy, and I think together, with our partners, and our core technology, and our go-to-market routes, we think we can really solve our customers, we are solving them today, and we think we can continue to solve them over time. >> You talk about open, open has a lot of different definitions. And again it's suspected UNIX used to be open. (laughs) I see that potentially as one, real solid differentiator of Red Hat. I mean, your philosophy on open. What do you see as your differentiators in the marketplace? >> Well, I think the first is obviously open like you said, the second part is, I think I hinted upon it earlier, which is, projects are good. I think they are almost a fountain and of ideas and things, but I think where we spend a tremendous amount of hours of energy is to transform it from the upstream project into a product. And if you go back, Red Hat Linux, I think we've shown that Linux was in the same kind of state of vibe in other ways, 10, 20 years ago. And I think what we've shown to the industry is by being solely committed and focused on make these projects enterprise ready, I think we've shown the market leading the way, and making it successful. So I think for us, the next wave, whether it's Kubernetes, whether it's other things, it's a very similar recipe book, nothing dramatically different, but fundamentally what we want to do is help our customers take advantage of those innovations, but yet not compromise on what they need in their enterprise data centers. >> The recipe book is similar, but you've gotta make bets. You've made some pretty good bets over the years. >> Yep. >> We could debate about OpenStack, but I mean, even there. But that's not an easy thing for an open source company to do. 'Cause you've gotta pick your poison, you have to provide committers, what's the secret sauce there? >> Well, I think, first off, I think the number one secret sauce from our perspective is add more technical and intellectual horsepower to these communities. And, not so much for the sake of community, it's about does it solve a real business problem for our customers? That's the way we go about it because in the open source community, I don't even know, hundreds of thousands of open source projects are out there. And we pay, and our office of the CTO pays very close attention to all the projects out there, identify the ones that have promise, not just from our perspective but from customers' perspective, and invest in those areas. And a lot of them have succeeded, so we think we'll do well in that. >> Alright, so, Ranga, one of the biggest announcements this week is Anthos from Google. Wanna get your viewpoint as to where that fits. >> I think it's a good announcement, I haven't read through all the details, but part of it is I think it validates, to a certain extent, what Red Hat has been talking about for the last five, seven years. Which is you need a unified way to deploy, manage, provision your infrastructure, not just on public clouds, but a seamless way to connect to the on-prem. And I think Anthos is a validation of how we've been thinking about the work. So we think it's great. We think it's really good. >> Ranga Rangachari thanks so much for coming back on theCUBE >> Thank you, David! >> It's always a pleasure. >> Thank you again, Stu. >> Have a great Red Hat summit coming up in early May, theCUBE will be there, Stu will be co-hosting. You're watching theCUBE, day two of Google Cloud Next 2019 from Moscone. We'll be right back. (upbeat music)

>> From Tavern on the Green in Central Park, New York, it's theCUBE, covering Veritas Vision Solution Day. Brought to you by Veritas. (robotic music) >> We're back in the heart of Central Park. We're here at Tavern on the Green. Beautiful location for the Veritas Vision Day. You're watching theCUBE, my name is Dave Vellante. We go out to the events, we extract the signal from the noise, we got the CEO of Veritas here, Greg Hughes, newly minted, nine months in. Greg, thanks for coming on theCUBE. >> It's great to be here Dave, thank you. >> So let's talk about your nine. What was your agenda your first nine months? You know they talk about the 100 day plan. What was your nine month plan? >> Yeah, well look, I've been here for nine months, but I'm a boomerang. So I was here from 2003 to 2010. I ran all of global services, during that time and became the chief strategy officer after that. Was here during the merger by Semantic. And then ran the Enterprise Product Group. So I had all the products and all the engineering teams for all the Enterprise products. And really my starting point is the customer. I really like to hear directly from the customer. So I've spent probably 50% of my time out and about, meeting with customers. And at this point, I've met with a 100 different accounts all around the world. And what I'm hearing, makes me even more excited to be here. Digital transformation is real. These customers are investing a lot in digitizing their companies. And that's driving an explosion of data. That data all needs to be available and recoverable and that's where we step in. We're the best at that. >> Okay, so that was sort of alluring to you. You're right, everybody's trying to get digital transformation right. It changes the whole data protection equation. It kind of reminds me, in a much bigger scale, of virtualization. You remember, everybody had to rethink their backup strategies because you now have less physical resources. This is a whole different set of pressures, isn't it? It's like you can't go down, you have to always have access to data. Data is-- >> 24 by seven. >> Increasingly valuable. >> Yup. >> So talk a little bit more about the importance of data, the role of data, and where Veritas fits in. >> Well, our customers are using new, they're driving new applications throughout the enterprise. So machine learning, AI, big data, internet of things. And that's all driving the use of new data management technologies. Cassandra, Hadoop, Open Sequel, MongoDB. You've heard all of these, right? And then that's driving the use of new platforms. Hyper-converged, virtual machines, the cloud. So all this data is popping up in all these different areas. And without Veritas, it can exist, it'll just be in silos. And that becomes very hard to manage and protect it. All that data needs to be protected. We're there to protect everything. And that's really how we think about it. >> The big message we heard today was you got a lot of different clouds, you don't want to have a different data protection strategy for each cloud. So you've got to simplify that for people. Sounds easy, but from an R&D perspective, you've got a large install base, you've been around for a long, long time. So you've got to put investments to actually see that through. Talk about your R&D and investment strategy. >> Well, our investment strategy's very simple. We are the market share leader in data protection and software-defined storage. And that scale, gives us a tremendous advantage. We can use that scale to invest more aggressively than anybody else, in those areas. So we can cover all the workloads, we can cover wherever our customers are putting their data, and we can help them standardize on one provider of data protection, and that's us. So they don't have to have the complexity of point products in their infrastructure. >> So I wonder if we could talk, just a little veer here, and talk about the private equity play. You guys are the private equity exit. And you're seeing a lot of high profile PE companies. It used to be where companies would go to die, and now it's becoming a way for the PE guys to actually get step-ups, and make a lot of money by investing in companies, and building communities, investing in R&D. Some of the stuff we've covered. We've followed Syncsort, BMC, Infor, a really interesting company, what's kind of an exit from PE, right? Dell, the biggest one of all. Riverbed, and of course Veritas. So, there's like a new private equity playbook. It's something you know well from your Silver Lake days. Describe what that dynamic is like, and how it's changed. >> Oh look, private equity's been involved in software for 10 or 15 years. It's been a very important area of investment in private equity. I've worked for private equity firms, worked for software companies, so I know it very well. And the basic idea is, continue the investment. Continue in the investment in the core products and the core customers, to make sure that there is continued enhancement and innovation, of the core products. With that, there'll be continuity in customer relationships, and those customer relationships are very valuable. That's really the secret, if you will, of the private equity playbook. >> Well and public markets are very fickle. I mean, they want growth now. They don't care about profits. I see you've got a very nice cash flow, you and some of the brethren that I mentioned. So that could be very attractive, particularly when, you know, public markets they ebb and flow. The key is value for customers, and that's going to drive value for shareholders. >> That's absolutely right. >> So talk about the TAM. Part of a CEOs job, is to continually find new ways, you're a strategy guy, so TAM expansion is part of the role. How do you look at the market? Where are the growth opportunities? >> We see our TAM, or our total addressable market, at being around $17 billion, cutting across all of our areas. Probably growing into high single digits, 8%. That's kind of a big picture view of it. When I like to think about it, I like to think about it from the themes I'm hearing from customers. What are our customers doing? They're trying to leverage the cloud. Most of our customers, which are large enterprises. We work with the blue-chip enterprises on the planet. They're going to move to a hybrid approach. They're going to on-premise infrastructure and multiple cloud providers. So that's really what they're doing. The second thing our customers are worried about is ransomware, and ransomware attacks. Spearfishing works, the bad guys are going to get in. They're going to put some bad malware in your environment. The key is to be resilient and to be able to restore at scale. That's another area of significant investment. The third, they're trying to automate. They're trying to make investments in automation, to take out manual labor, to reduce error rate. In this whole world, tape should go away. So one of the things our customers are doing, is trying to get rid of tape backup in their environment. Tape is a long-term retention strategy. And then finally, if you get rid of tape, and you have all your secondary data on disc or in the cloud, what becomes really cool, is you can analyze all that data. Out of bound, from the primary storage. That's one of the bigger changes I've seen since I've returned back to Veritas. >> So $17 billion, obviously, that transcends backup. Frankly, we go back to the early days of Veritas, I always thought of it as a data management company and sort of returned to those roots. >> Backup, software defined storage, compliance, all those areas are key to what we do. >> You mentioned automation. When you think about cloud and digital transformation, automation is fundamental, we had NBCUniversal on earlier, and the customer was talking about scripts and how scripts are fragile and they need to be maintained and it doesn't scale. So he wants to drive automation into his processes as much as possible, using a platform, a sort of API based, modern, microservices, containers. Kind of using all those terms. What does that mean for you guys in terms of your R&D roadmap, in terms of the investments that you're making in those types of software innovations? >> Well actually one of the things we're talking about today is our latest release of NetBackup 812, which had a significant investment in APIs and that allow our customers to use the product and automate processes, tie it together with their infrastructure, like ServiceNow, or whatever they have. And we're going to continue full throttle on APIs. Just having lunch with some customers just today, they want us to go even further in our APIs. So that's really core to what we're doing. >> So you guys are a little bit like the New England Patriots. You're the leader, and everybody wants to take you down. So you always start-- >> Nobody's confused me for Tom Brady. Although my wife looks... I'll stack her up against Giselle anytime, but I'm no Tom Brady. >> So okay, how do you maintain your leadership and your relevance for customers? A lot of VC money coming into the marketplace. Like I said, everybody wants to take the leader down. How do you maintain your leadership? >> We've been around for 25 years. We're very honored to have 95% of the Fortune 100, are our customers. If you go to any large country in the world it's very much like that. We work with the bluest of blue-chips, the biggest companies, the most complex, the most demanding (chuckling), the most highly regulated. Those are our customers. We steer the ship based on their input, and that's why we're relevant. We're listening to them. Our customer's extremely relevant. We're going to help them protect, classify, archive their data, wherever it is. >> So the first nine months was all about hearing from customers. So what's the next 12 to 18 months about for you? >> We're continuing to invest, delighted to talk about partnerships, and where those are going, as well. I think that's going to be a major emphasis of us to continue to drive our partnerships. We can't do this alone. Our customers use products from a variety of other players. Today we had Henry Axelrod, from Amazon Web Services, here talking about how we're working closely with Amazon. We announced a really cool partnership with Pure Storage. Our customers that use Pure Storage's all-flash arrays, they know their data's backed up and protected with Veritas and with NetBackup. It's continually make sure that across this ecosystem of partners, we are the one player that can help our large customers. >> Great, thank you for mentioning that ecosystem is a key part of it. The channel, that's how you continue to grow. You get a lot of leverage out of that. Well Greg, thanks very much for coming on theCUBE. Congratulations on your-- >> Dave, thank you. >> On the new role. We are super excited for you guys, and we'll be watching. >> I enjoyed it, thank you. >> All right. Keep it right there everybody we'll be back with our next guest. This is Dave Vellante, we're here in Central Park. Be right back, Veritas Vision, be right back. (robotic music)

(electronic music) >> Announcer: From Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE, covering Cloud Foundry Summit 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Foundry Foundation. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman, and this is theCUBE's coverage of Cloud Foundry Summit 2018, here in Boston. Happy to welcome back to the program, Chen Goldberg, who's the Engineering Director at Google. Chen, thanks for joining me. >> Thank you, it's always a pleasure. >> So Chen, what are the big questions coming in? We talked to you at the KubeCon Show before. You know, Kubernetes, you know, Cloud Foundry, containers, serverless, all these things mashing up. You've been here at the show for about a day, what have you learned so far? How do all these kind of fit together in your mind? >> So actually, it was great being here for the last day, 24 hours so far, and just seeing how Cloud Foundry Community is really opening and welcoming influence from other communities in the cloud native space. And we see it in different ways. We see work that is being done on building some open standards, for example, and so working with the Cloud Foundry on things like OCI, the Open Container Initiative, and the CSI, which is the Container Storage Interface. But not only that, for example, we in Google have been working, last year, building Kubo, which then became the Cloud Foundry Container Runtime, and really bringing things together. And I think that's awesome because like any other technology, we need to know how we can take the best out of everything. And this is what really, user wants to know. They want to know that when they are making a decision or a choice of a technology, that technology can move with them forward. The last thing that we also see all of interest about the Open Service Broker and how you can really mesh things together with different platforms. >> Chen, I'm wondering if you can help us squint through this a little bit. And we've heard Google talking for a while about Open Cloud, and that means it doesn't beam all one source in the public cloud portability between clouds, public and private. Google's had many partnerships over the years with there. How do these pieces fit together in your mind? >> I think it all starts with what user wants. Okay, I always talk about the customer and what is their pain? And the pain, in reality is that they have a very complex environment, okay? They have on-prem. They want to use some of the cloud services. Sometimes they have some places, like we hear it from retail, they have some warehouses, that they don't have actually good connectivity, but they still want to serve, they still want to have the guild transformation. And, I think, that's the main thing that what we hear from users, that they want to have that flexibility over to run their business. Okay, because this is what they really have to do and they want to compete more effectively. So, think about that. The other piece which we hear about users is that they want to make sure like we talked about Cloud Foundry before. They want to make sure that the infrastructure they choose though, that the tools will allow them to evolve, and that can be in different ways. It can be about maybe having flexibility to choose different tools, but also not to be locked in to a specific vendor because that happened to them before, right? So, they want to make sure that they can continue and move forward because the technology we know today maybe, probably will change in the future. So, by having all of that together, that leads us to some of the pieces I've talked about in the keynote. And the first one is portability. We achieve it by open source. We believe in open source because it does bring the community together. We learn about users, partners. We have an amazing ecosystem. So that's one. The second piece is about its sensibility and this is where you can see how Cloud Foundry can actually integrate into Kubernetes. It's because of those extension points. We don't know where innovation will come from. What will be the next cool thing? And back in KubeCon, I talked about some serverless framework we see on top of Kubernetes. All of that is possible through those extensions. Open Service Broker is actually a combination of two. So Open Service Broker is an open standard. It allows you to consume services from different platforms. We saw, in the keynote, so Google is announcing, now in beta, the Google Managed Service Broker, supporting the Open Service Broker API. And you consume it out from any Kubernetes cluster that are using a catalog, service catalog. And it is available also through those extensions. So when we think about Open Hybrid Cloud, we think about that you can run it anywhere. And either you have interopabilities, so you can consume different tools and you can extend it and innovate on top of it. So that's our way of thinking. >> Yeah, I mean, we know the only thing that's constant in this industry today is change. >> Yes. >> One of the things we've been tracking is if I look at an application, it used to be I deploy an application, it takes me 12-18 months at least, and then, once I'm running it, gosh. Yeah, sure, were going to run it for three to five years but, no, no, actually, we're going to run it for 10-12 years. We're going to keep it longer. How does this kind of decomposability of applications and having things and more components? We talk about things like flexibility and speed but, you know, how do you hear from customers, really, from the application side of things? >> This is all about microservices? >> Yeah. >> Right? Just making sure that your application is architected in a way that allows you to change things. I think also that developers are now used to that cycle which is really fast. I'm talking about agility and how quickly you can deploy changes. You know, I keep talking with my engineering team, like don't get too attached (laughs) to anything because things do change and requirements change all the time, and if you're building your application right, you can do those changes. For example, again, going back to the Open Service Broker, you can use a service. First of all, maybe your own service, like your own SQL. But then you can use through a managed service like if you are running on G Key or having Cloud Foundry running on GCP, then you can use one of the managed services offered by Google. >> Okay, anything new you're hearing from users? What are some of their biggest challenges? What's exciting them these days? >> So it depends which user and also who you talk in that audience. Yeah, I think developers are still very excited about the opportunity and the different tools and open source and how quickly the technology is moving forward. When we talk with enterprise, they are very excited about consistency because it's hard. That complexity and managing all of it is really hard to train your operational teams and the developers on different tools. So they are very much concerned about that, their TCO. So they care about, of course, the cost of the infrastructure, but also the people. Right, we don't talk about how hard it is to train and change technology, technologies, all during a cultural change within an organization. So, they care about consistency and this is something that is really in the heart of the thing that we are building. So starting with Kubernetes, we talk about flexibility without compromising consistency. And you do it by building obstructions and letting everyone own a different piece. And there's always some excitement about Istio, in that sense, because what it allows you is to create an obstruction for managing services which is separated from the code that you build. So, let's say you want to, for example, deploy a new policy of access control to your services, you can do it through Istio, because you have proxies in front of all your services, regardless of what they run, by the way. You can have services on VMs, on Cloud Foundry, on a Google Kubernetes engine, or anything, anywhere else you actually would like to have them. And you have that consistent layer in front of all of them. You can do troubleshooting easier because you will have the same matrix and data and telometry on top of it. And so, moving into that direction, creating more obstructions that are creating less friction for the end-user, while still allowing just the platform to evolve, right? If you have this platform on top of it, you can still move services from running from one platform to another, but that person that is using the data, actually, their experience won't change. >> Alright, Chen, what should we be looking for from Google and Eureka's system for the rest of 2018? >> So, of course, we continue and invest a lot in Kubernetes and its ecosystem, and you can see it all the time. All the time, we are bringing more and more tools in open source, showing some of our best practices of how we manage development and production into the community. Some of it is in, like project, like developer experience project, like scaffold, and others that were announced in the last few months. So we will see more of those coming. And in some ways, it's also around the best practices. So, we have been delivering messages of how you should run your clusters or application more secured. And, of course, some of those offerings will be on GCP. But that's another area where we are heavily investing. We have a lot of experience and we are happy to share that. >> Well okay, last question I have for you, is the world becoming more Googly? Or is Google becoming more like the rest of the world? (Stu and Chen laugh) >> I want to say that the world becoming more Googly. (laughs) Being Googly means many things for people here in the, that maybe don't know what means. To me, being Googly is being nice and being kind, and also, being open to more ideas and that's what I would hope to see the world moving towards. But yes, but definitely Google, as part of it being Googly, is working, continuing to work with the community and get feedback, and that's great. >> Okay, well, Chen Goldberg, it's a pleasure to catch up with you again. We will have lots more Google content (Chen laughs) and Googly guests, not only here at the Cloud Foundry Summmit, we're going to be at KubeCon, Copenhagen, as well as KubeCon, Seattle, at the end of the year, and really excited to say that we will be at the Google Cloud Next Show >> Aww. >> this summer, so, look for lots more of theCUBE. >> Thank you, Chen, for joining me. >> That's exciting. >> I'm Stu Miniman. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (electronic music)

(Rhythm music) >> Narrator: Live, from Munich, Germany, it's The Cube. Coverage, DataWorks Summit Europe, 2017. Brought to you by Hortonworks. >> Okay, welcome back everyone. We are live in Munich, Germany for DataWorks 2017, formally known as Hadoop Summit. This is The Cube special coverage of the Big Data world. I'm John Furrier my co-host Dave Vallente. Two days of live coverage, day one wrapping up. Now, Dave, we're just kind of reviewing the scene here. First of all, Europe is a different vibe. But the game is still the same. It's about Big Data evolving from Hadoop to full open source penetration. Puppy's now public in markets Hortonworks, Cloudera is now filing an S-1, Neosoft, Talon, variety of the other public companies. Alteryx. Hadoop is not dead, it's not dying. It certainly is going to have a position in the industry, but the Big Data conversation is front and center. And one thing that's striking to me is that in Europe, more than in the North America, is IOT is more centrally themed in this event. Europe is on the Internet of Things because of the manufacturing, smart cities. So this is a lot of IOT happening here, and I think this is a big discovery certainly, Hortonworks event is much more of a community event than Strata Hadoop. Which is much more about making money and modernization. This show's got a lot more engagement with real conversations and developers sessions. Very engaging audience. Well, yeah, it's Europe. So you've go a little bit different smaller show than North America but to me, IOT, Internet of Things, is bringing the other cloud world with Big Data. That's the forcing function. And real time data is the center of the action. I think is going to be a continuing theme as we move forward. >> So, in 2010 John, it was all about 'What is Hadoop?' With the middle part of that decade was all about Hadoop's got to go into the enterprise. It's gone mainstream in to the enterprise, and now it's sort of 'what's next?' Same wine new bottle. But I will say this, Hadoop, as you pointed out, is not dead. And I liken it to the early web. Web one dot O it was profound. It was a new paradigm. The profundity of Hadoop was that you could ship five megabytes of code to a petabyte of data. And that was the new model and that's spawned, that's catalyzed the Big Data movement. That is with us now and it's entrenched, and now you're seeing layers of innovation on top of that. >> Yeah, and I would just reiterate and reinforce that point by saying that Cloudera, the founders of this industry if you will, with Hadoop the first company to be commercially funded to do what Hortonworks came in after the fact out of Yahoo, came out of a web-scale world. So you have the cloud native DevOps culture, Amar Ujala's at Yahoo, Mike Olson, Jeff Hammerbacher, Christopher Vercelli. These guys were hardcore large-scale data guys. Again, this is the continuation of the evolution, and I think nothing is changed it that regard because those pioneers have set the stage for now the commercialization and now the conversation around operationalizing this cloud is big. And having Alan Nance, a practitioner, rock-star, talking about radical deployments that can drop a billion dollars at a cost savings to the bottom line. This is the kind of conversations we're going to see more of this is going to change the game from, you know, "Hey, I'm the CFO buyer" or "CIO doing IT", to an operational CEO, chief operating officer level conversation. That operational model of cloud is now coming into the view what ERP did in software, those kinds of megatrends, this is happening right now. >> As we talk about the open, the people who are going to make the real money on Big Data are the practitioners, those people applying it. We talked about Alan Nance's example of billion dollar, half a billion dollar cost-savings revenue opportunities, that's where the money's being made. It's not being made, yet anyway with these public companies. You're seeing it Splunk, Tableau, now Cloudera, Hortonworks, MapR. Is MapR even here? >> Haven't seen 'em. >> No I haven't seen MapR, they used to have pretty prominent display at the show. >> You brought up point I want to get back to. This relates to those guys, which is, profitless prosperity. >> Yeah. >> A term used for open source. I think there's a trend happening and I can't put a finger on it but I can kind of feel it. That is the ecosystems of open source are now going to a dimension where they're not yet valued in the classic sense. Most people that build platforms value ecosystems, that's where developers came from. Developer ecosystems fuel open source. But if you look at enterprise, at transformations over the decades, you'd see the successful companies have ecosystems of channel partners; ecosystems of indirect sales if you will. We're seeing the formation, at least I can start seeing the formation of an indirect engine of value creation, vis-à-vis this organic developer community where the people are building businesses and companies. Shaun Connolly pointed to Thintech as an example. Where these startups became financial services businesses that became Thintech suppliers, the banks. They're not in the banking business per se, but they're becoming as important as banks 'cuz they're the providers in Thintech, Thintech being financial tech. So you're starting to see this ecosystem of not "channel partners", resell my equipment or software in the classic sense as we know them as they're called channel partners. But if this continues to develop, the thousand flower blooming strategy, you could argue that Hortonworks is undervalued as a company because they're not realizing those gains yet or those gains can't be measured. So if you're an MBA or an investment banker, you've got to be looking at the market saying, "wow, is there a net-present value to an ecosystem?" It begs the question Dave. >> Dave: It's a great question John. >> This is a wealth creation. A rising tide floats all boats, in that rising tide is a ecosystem value number there. No one has their hands on that, no one's talked about that. That is the upshot in my mind, the silver-lining to what some are saying is the consolidation of Hadoop. Some are saying Cloudera is going to get a huge haircut off their four point one billion dollar value. >> Dave: I think that's inevitable. >> Which is some say, they may lose two to three billion in value, in the IPO. Post IPO which would put them in line with Hortonworks based on the numbers. You know, is that good or bad? I don't think it's bad because the value shifts to the ecosystem. Both Cloudera and Hortonworks both play in open source so you can be glass half-full on one hand, on the haircut, upcoming for Cloudera, two saying "No, the glass is half-full because it's a haircut in the short-term maybe", if that happens. I mean some said Pure Storage was going to get a haircut, they never really did Dave. So, again, no one yet has pegged the valuation of an ecosystem. >> Well, and I think that is a great point, personally I think, I've been sort of racking my brain, will this Big Data hike be realized. Like the internet. You remember the internet hyped up, then it crashed; no one wanted to own any of these companies. But it actually lived up to the hype. It actually exceeded the hype. >> You can get pet food online now, it's called amazon. [Co-Hosts Chuckle Together] All the e-commerce played out. >> Right, e-commerce played out. But I think you're right. But everybody's expecting sort of, was expecting a similar type of cycle. "Oh, this will replace that." And that's now what's going to happen. What's going to happen is the ecosystem is going to create a flywheel effect, is really what you're saying. >> Jeff: Yes. >> And there will be huge valuations that emerge out of this. But today, the guys that we know and love, the Hortonworks, the Clouderas, et cetera, aren't really on the winners list, I mean some of their founders maybe are. But who are the winners? Maybe the customers because they saw a big drop in cost. Apache's a big winner here. Wouldn't ya say? >> Yeah. >> Apache's looking pretty good, Apache Foundation. I would say AWS is a pretty big winner. They're drifting off of this. How about Microsoft and IBM? I mean I feel in a way IBM is sort of co-opted this Big Data meme, and said, "okay, cognitive." And layered all of it's stuff on top of it. Bought the weather company, repositioned the company, now it hasn't translated in to growth, but certainly has profitability implications. >> IBM plays well here, I'll tell you why. They're very big in open source, so that's positive. Two, they have huge track record and staff dealing with professional services in the enterprise. So if transformation is the journey conversation, IBM's right there. You can't ignore IBM on this one. Now, the stack might be different, but again, beauty is in the eye of the beholder because depending on what work clothes you have it depends. IBM is not going to leave you high and dry 'cuz they have a really you need for what they can do with their customers. Where people are going to get blindsided in my opinion, the IBMs and Oracles of the world, and even Microsoft, is what Alan Nance was talking about, the radical transformation around the operating model is going to force people to figure out when to start cannibalizing their own stacks. That's going to be a tell sign for winners and losers in the big game. Because if IBM can shift quickly and co-op the megatrends, make it their own, get out in front of that next wave as Pat Gelsinger would say, they could surf that wave and then tweak, and then get out in front. If they don't get behind that next wave, they're driftwood. It really is all about where you are in the spectrum, and analytics is one of those things in data where, you've got to have a cohesive horizontal strategy. You got to be horizontally scalable with data. You got to make data freely available. You have to have an abstraction layer of software that will allow free movement of data, across systems. That's the number one thing that comes out of seeing the Hortonwork's data platform for instance. Shaun Connolly called it 'connective tissue'. Cloudera is the same thing, they have to start figuring out ways to be better at the data across the horizontal view. Cloudera like IBM has an opportunity as well, to get out in front of the next wave. I think you can see that with AI and machine learning, clearly they're going to go after that. >> Just to finish off on the winners and losers; I mean, the other winner is systems integrators to service these companies. But I like what you said about cannibalizing stacks as an indicator of what's happening. So let's talk about that. Oracle clearly cannibalizing it's stacks, saying, "okay, we're going to the red stack to the cloud, go." Microsoft has made that decision to do that. IBM? To a large degree is cannibalizing it's stack. HP sold off it's stack, said, "we don't want to cannibalize our stack, we want to sell and try to retool." >> So, your question, your point? >> So, haven't they already begun to do that, the big legacy companies? >> They're doing their tweaking the collet and mog, as an example. At Oracle Open World and IBM Interconnect, all the shows we, except for Amazon, 'cuz they're pure cloud. All are taking the unique differentiation approach to their own stuff. IBM is putting stuff that's relate to IBM in their cloud. Oracle differentiates on their stack, for instance, I have no problem with Oracle because they have a huge database business. And, you're high as a kite if you think Oracle's going to lose that database business when data is the number one asset in the world. What Oracle's doing which I think is quite brilliant on Oracle's part is saying, "hey, if you want to run on premise with hardware, we got Sun, and oh by the way, our database is the fastest on our stuff." Check. Win. "Oh you want to move to the cloud? Come to the Oracle cloud, our database runs the fastest in our cloud", which is their stuff in the cloud. So if you're an Oracle customer you just can't lose there. So they created an inimitability around their own database. So does that mean they're going to win the new database war? Maybe not, but they can coexist as a system of records so that's a win. Microsoft Office 365, tightly coupling that with Azure is a brilliant move. Why wouldn't they do that? They're going to migrate their customer base to their own clouds. Oracle and Microsoft are going to migrate their customers to their own cloud. Differentiate and give their customers a gateway to the cloud. VVMware is partnering with Amazon. Brilliant move and they just sold vCloud Air which we reported at Silicon Angle last night, to a French company recently so vCloud Air is gone. Now that puts the VMware clearly in bed with Amazon web services. Great move for VMware, benefit to AWS, that's a differentiation for VMware. >> Dave: Somebody bought vCloud Air? >> I think you missed that last night 'cuz you were traveling. >> Chuckling: That's tongue-in-cheek, I mean what did they get for vCloud Air? >> OVH bought them, French company. >> More de-levering by Michael. >> Well, they're inter-clouding right? I mean de-leveraging the focus, right? So OVH, French company, has a very much coexisted... >> What'd they pay? >> ... strategy. It's undisclosed. >> Yeah, well why? 'Cuz it wasn't a big number. That's my point. >> Back to the other cloud players, Google. I think Google's differentiating on their technology. Great move, smart move. They just got to get, as someone who's been following them, and you know, you and I both love an enterprise experience. They got to speak the enterprise language and execute the language. Not through 19 year olds and interns or recent smart college grads ad and say, "we're instantly enterprise." There's a dis-economies of scale for trying to ramp up and trying to be too heavy on the enterprise. Amazon's got the same problem, you can't hire sales guy fast enough, and oh by the way, find me a sales guy that has ten 15 years executive selling experience to a complex strategic sales, like the enterprise where you now have stakeholders that are in multiple roles and changing roles as Alan Nance pointed out. So the enterprise game is very difficult. >> Yup. >> Very very difficult. >> Well, I think these dupe startups are seeing that. None of them are making money. Shaun Connolly basically said, "hey, it used to be growth they would pay for growth, but now their punishing you if you don't have growth plus profitability." By the way, that's not all totally true. Amazon makes no money, unless stock prices go through the roof. >> There is no self-service, there is no self-service business model for digital transformation for enterprise customers today. It doesn't exist. The value proposition doesn't resinate with customers. It works good for Shadow IT, and if you want to roll out G Suite in some pockets of your organization, but an ad-sense sales force doesn't work in the enterprise. Everyone's finding that out right now because they're basically transforming their enterprise. >> I think Google's going to solve their problem. I think Google has to solve their problem 'cuz... >> I think they will, but to me it's, buy a company, there's a zillion company out there they could buy tomorrow that are private, that have like 300 sales people that are senior people. Pay the bucks, buy a sales force, roll your stuff out and start speaking the language. I think Dianne Green gets this. So, I think, I expect to see Google ... >> Dave: Totally. >> do some things in that area. >> And I think, to you're point, I've always said the rich get richer. The traditional legacy companies, they're holding servant in this. They waited they waited they waited, and they said, "okay now we're going to go put our chips on the table." Oracle made it's bets. IBM made it's bets. HP, not really, betting on hardware. Okay. Fine. Cisco, Microsoft, they're all making their bets. >> It's all about bets on technology and profitability. This is what I'm looking at right now Dave. We talked about it on our intro. Shaun Connolly who's in charge of strategy at Hortonworks clarified it that clearly revenue, losing money is not going to solve the problem for credibility. Profitability matters. This comes back to the point we've said on The Cube multiple years ago and even just as recently as last year, that the world's flipping back down to credibility. Customers in the enterprise want to see credibility and track record. And they're going to evaluate the suppliers based upon key fundamentals in their business. Can they make money? Can they deliver SLAs? These are going to be key requirements, not the shiny new toy from Silicon Valley. Or the cool machine learning algorithm. It has to apply to their product, their value, and they're going to look to companies on the scoreboard and say, "are you profitable?" As a proxy for relevance. >> Well I want to keep it, but I do want to, we've been kind of critical of some of the Hadoop players. Cloudera and Hortonworks specifically. But I want to give them props 'cuz you remember well John, when the legacy enterprise guys started coming into the Hadoop market they all said that they had the same messaging, "we're going to make Hadoop enterprise ready." You remember that well, and I have to say that Hortonworks, Cloudera, I would say MapR as well and the ecosystem, have done a pretty good job of making Hadoop and Big Data enterprise ready. They were already working on it very hard, I think they took it seriously and I think that that's why they are in the mix and they are growing as they are. Shaun Connolly talked about them being operating cashflow positive. Eking out some plus cash. On the next earnings call, pressures on. But we want to see, you know, rocket ships. >> I think they've done a good job, I mean, I don't think anyone's been asleep at the switch. At all, enterprise ready. The questions always been "can they get there fast enough?" I think everyone's recognized that cost of ownership's down. We still solicit on the OpenStack ecosystem, and that they move right from the valley properties. So we'll keep an eye on it, tomorrow we'll be checking in. We got a great day tomorrow. Live coverage here in Munich, Germany for DataWorks 2017. More coverage tomorrow, stay with us. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vallente. Be right back with more tomorrow, day two. Keep following us.

>> [Announcer] Live, from Boston, Massachusetts, it's the Cube, covering Spark Summit East 2017, brought to you by Data Breaks. Now, your host, Dave Alante and George Gilbert. >> Welcome back to snowy Boston everybody, this is The Cube, the leader in live tech coverage. Arun Murthy is here, he's the founder and vice president of engineering at Horton Works, father of YARN, can I call you that, godfather of YARN, is that fair, or? (laughs) Anyway. He's so, so modest. Welcome back to the Cube, it's great to see you. >> Pleasure to have you. >> Coming off the big keynote, (laughs) you ended the session this morning, so that was great. Glad you made it in to Boston, and uh, lot of talk about security and governance, you know we've been talking about that years, it feels like it's truly starting to come into the main stream Arun, so. >> Well I think it's just a reflection of what customers are doing with the tech now. Now, three, four years ago, a lot of it was pilots, a lot of it was, you know, people playing with the tech. But increasingly, it's about, you know, people actually applying stuff in production, having data, system of record, running workloads both on prem and on the cloud, cloud is sort of becoming more and more real at mainstream enterprises. So a lot of it means, as you take any of the examples today any interesting app will have some sort of real time data feed, it's probably coming out from a cell phone or sensor which means that data is actually not, in most cases not coming on prem, it's actually getting collected in a local cloud somewhere, it's just more cost effective, why would we put up 25 data centers if you don't have to, right? So then you got to connect that data, production data you have or customer data you have or data you might have purchased and then join them up, run some interesting analytics, do geobased real time threat detection, cyber security. A lot of it means that you need a common way to secure data, govern it, and that's where we see the action, I think it's a really good sign for the market and for the community that people are pushing on these dimensions of the broader, because, getting pushed in this dimension because it means that people are actually using it for real production work loads. >> Well in the early days of Hadoop you really didn't talk that much about cloud. >> Yeah. >> You know, and now, >> Absolutely. >> It's like, you know, duh, cloud. >> Yeah. >> It's everywhere, and of course the whole hybrid cloud thing comes into play, what are you seeing there, what are things you can do in a hybrid, you know, or on prem that you can't do in a public cloud and what's the dynamic look like? >> Well, it's definitely not an either or, right? So what we're seeing is increasingly interesting apps need data which are born in the cloud and they'll stay in the cloud, but they also need transactional data which stays on prem, you might have an EDW for example, right? >> Right. >> There's not a lot of, you know, people want to solve business problems and not just move data from one place to another, right? Or back from one place to another, so it's not interesting to move an EDW to the cloud, and similarly it's not interesting to bring your IOT data or sensor data back into on-prem, right? Just makes sense. So naturally what happens is, you know, at Hortonworks we talk of kinds of modern app or a modern data app, which means a modern data app has to spare, has to sort of, you know, it can pass both on-prem data and cloud data. >> Yeah, you talked about that in your keynote years ago. Furio said that the data is the new development kit. And now you're seeing the apps are just so dang rich, >> Exactly, exactly. >> And they have to span >> Absolutely. >> physical locations, >> Yeah. >> But then this whole thing of IOT comes up, we've been having a conversation on The Cube, last several Cubes of, okay, how much stays out, how much stays in, there's a lot of debates about that, there's reasons not to bring it in, but you talked today about some of the important stuff will come back. >> Yeah. >> So the way this is, this all is going to be, you know, there's a lot of data that should be born in the cloud and stay there, the IOT data, but then what will happen increasingly is, key summaries of the data will move back and forth, so key summaries of your EDW will move to the cloud, sometimes key summaries of your IOT data, you know, you want to do some sort of historical training in analytics, that will come back on-prem, so I think there's a bi-directional data movement, but it just won't be all the data, right? It'll be key interesting summaries of the data but not all of it. >> And a lot of times, people say well it doesn't matter where it lives, cloud should be an operating model, not a place where you put data or applications, and while that's true and we would agree with that, from a customer standpoint it matters in terms of performance and latency issues and cost and regulation, >> And security and governance. >> Yeah. >> Absolutely. >> You need to think those things through. >> Exactly, so I mean, so that's what we're focused on, to make sure that you have a common security and governance model regardless of where data is, so you can think of it as, infrastructure you own and infrastructure you lease. >> Right. >> Right? Now, the details matter of course, when you go to the cloud you lose S3 for example or ADLS from Microsoft, but you got to make sure that there's a common sort of security governance front and top of it, in front of it, as an example one of the things that, you know, in the open source community, Ranger's a really sort of key project right now from a security authorization and authentication standpoint. We've done a lot of work with our friends at Microsoft to make sure, you can actually now manage data in Wasabi which is their object store, data stream, natively with Ranger, so you can set a policy that says only Dave can access these files, you know, George can access these columns, that sort of stuff is natively done on the Microsoft platform thanks to the relationship we have with them. >> Right. >> So that's actually really interesting for the open source communities. So you've talked about sort of commodity storage at the bottom layer and even if they're different sort of interfaces and implementations, it's still commodity storage, and now what's really helpful to customers is that they have a common security model, >> Exactly. >> Authorization, authentication, >> Authentication, lineage prominence, >> Oh okay. >> You want to make sure all of these are common sources across. >> But you've mentioned off of the different data patterns, like the stuff that might be streaming in on the cloud, what, assuming you're not putting it into just a file system or an object store, and you want to sort of merge it with >> Yeah. >> Historical data, so what are some of the data stores other than the file system, in other words, newfangled databases to manage this sort of interaction? >> So I think what you're saying is, we certainly have the raw data, the raw data is going to line up in whatever cloud native storage, >> Yeah. >> It's going to be Amazon, Wasabi, ADLS, Google Storage. But then increasingly you want, so now the patterns change so you have raw data, you have some sort of an ETL process, what's interesting in the cloud is that even the process data or, if you take the unstructured raw data and structure it, that structured data also needs to live on the cloud platform, right? The reason that's important is because A, it's cheaper to use the native platform rather than set up your own database on top of it. The other one is you also want to take advantage of all the native sources that the cloud storage provides, so for example, linking your application. So automatically data in Wasabi, you know, if you can set up a policy and easily say this structured data stable that I have of which is a summary of all the IOT activity in the last 24 hours, you can, using the cloud provider's technologies you can actually make it show up easily in Europe, like you don't have to do any work, right? So increasingly what we Hortonworks focused a lot on is to make sure that we, all of the computer engines, whether it's Spark or Hive or, you know, or MapReduce, it doesn't really matter, they're all natively working on the cloud provider's storage platform. >> [George] Okay. >> Right, so, >> Okay. >> That's a really key consideration for us. >> And the follow up to that, you know, there's a bit of a misconception that Spark replaces Hadoop, but it actually can be a processing, a compute engine for, >> Yeah. >> That can compliment or replace some of the compute engines in Hadoop, help us frame, how you talk about it with your customers. >> For us it's really simple, like in the past, the only option you had on Hadoop to do any computation was MapReduce, that was, I started working in MapReduce 11 years ago, so as you can imagine, it's a pretty good run for any technology, right? Spark is definitely the interesting sort of engine for sort of the, anything from mission learning to ETL for data on top of Hadoop. But again, what we focus a lot on is to make sure that every time we bring in, so right now, when we started on HTP, the first on HTP had about nine open source projects literally just nine. Today, the last one we shipped was 2.5, HTP 2.5 had about 27 I think, like it's a huge sort of explosion, right? But the problem with that is not just that we have 27 projects, the problem is that you're going to make sure each of the 27 work with all the 26 others. >> It's a QA nightmare. >> Exactly. So that integration is really key, so same thing with Spark, we want to make sure you have security and YARN (mumbles), like you saw in the demo today, you can now run Spark SQL but also make sure you get low level (mumbles) masking, all of the enterprise capabilities that you need, and I was at a financial services three or four weeks ago in Chicago. Today, to do equivalent of what I showed today on demo, they need literally, they have a classic ADW, and they have to maintain anywhere between 1500 to 2500 views of the same database, that's a nightmare as you can imagine. Now the fact that you can do this on the raw data using whether it's Hive or Spark or Peg or MapReduce, it doesn't really matter, it's really key, and that's the thing we push to make sure things like YARN security work across all the stacks, all the open source techs. >> So that makes life better, a simplification use case if you will, >> Yeah. >> What are some of the other use cases that you're seeing things like Spark enable? >> Machine learning is a really big one. Increasingly, every product is going to have some, people call it, machine learning and AI and deep learning, there's a lot of techniques out there, but the key part is you want to build a predictive model, in the past (mumbles) everybody want to build a model and score what's happening in the real world against model, but equally important make sure the model gets updated as more data comes in on and actually as the model scores does get smaller over time. So that's something we see all over, so for example, even within our own product, it's not just us enabling this for the customer, for example at Hortonworks we have a product called SmartSense which allows you to optimize how people use Hadoop. Where the, what are the opportunities for you to explore deficiencies within your own Hadoop system, whether it's Spark or Hive, right? So we now put mesh learning into SmartSense. And show you that customers who are running queries like you are running, Mr. Customer X, other customers like you are tuning Hadoop this way, they're running this sort of config, they're using these sort of features in Hadoop. That allows us to actually make the product itself better all the way down the pipe. >> So you're improving the scoring algorithm or you're sort of replacing it with something better? >> What we're doing there is just helping them optimize their Hadoop deploys. >> Yep. >> Right? You know, configuration and tuning and kernel settings and network settings, we do that automatically with SmartSense. >> But the customer, you talked about scoring and trying to, >> Yeah. >> They're tuning that, improving that and increasing the probability of it's accuracy, or is it? >> It's both. >> Okay. >> So the thing is what they do is, you initially come with a hypothesis, you have some amount of data, right? I'm a big believer that over time, more data, you're better off spending more, getting more data into the system than to tune that algorithm financially, right? >> Interesting, okay. >> Right, so you know, for example, you know, talk to any of the big guys on Facebook because they'll do the same, what they'll say is it's much better to get, to spend your time getting 10x data to the system and improving the model rather than spending 10x the time and improving the model itself on day one. >> Yeah, but that's a key choice, because you got to >> Exactly. >> Spend money on doing either, >> One of them. >> And you're saying go for the data. >> Go for the data. >> At least now. >> Yeah, go for data, what happens is the good part of that is it's not just the model, it's the, what you got to really get through is the entire end to end flow. >> Yeah. >> All the way from data aggregation to ingestion to collection to scoring, all that aspect, you're better off sort of walking through the paces like building the entire end to end product rather than spending time in a silo trying to make a lot of change. >> We've talked to a lot of machine learning tool vendors, application vendors, and it seems like we got to the point with Big Data where we put it in a repository then we started doing better at curating it and understanding it then starting to do a little bit exploration with business intelligence, but with machine learning, we don't have something that does this end to end, you know, from acquiring the data, building the model to operationalizing it, where are we on that, who should we look to for that? >> It's definitely very early, I mean if you look at, even the EDW space, for example, what is EDW? EDW is ingestion, ETL, and then sort of fast query layer, Olap BI, on and on and on, right? So that's the full EDW flow, I don't think as a market, I mean, it's really early in this space, not only as an overall industry, we have that end to end sort of industrialized design concept, it's going to take time, but a lot of people are ahead, you know, the Google's a world ahead, over time a lot of people will catch up. >> We got to go, I wish we had more time, I had so many other questions for you but I know time is tight in our schedule, so thanks so much Arun, >> Appreciate it. For coming on, appreciate it, alright, keep right there everybody, we'll be back with our next guest, it's The Cube, we're live from Spark Summit East in Boston, right back. (upbeat music)