>> theCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies. Creating technologies that drive human progress. (upbeat music) >> Lisa Martin: Good afternoon everyone. theCUBE live in Barcelona, Spain at MWC23. Lisa Martin with Dave Nicholson. Day three of our wall-to-wall coverage of four days of CUBE content. I know, it's amazing. We're going to have a great conversation next with DISH and Dell, talking about the value of automation and telecom for 5G. Please welcome Song Toh, Senior Director of Product Management Infrastructure Automation at Dell. And Sidd Chenumolu, VP of Technology Development at DISH. Guys, great to have you on theCUBE. >> Thanks for having us. >> Thank you, it's a pleasure. >> So let's go ahead and start with you. We know that DISH is developing its own open cloud native 5G network from the ground up. Talk to us about before you were working with Dell, what the situation was like and why you brought Dell in to help drive the innovation. >> Ah, that's a good question. So, three years ago we started the journey, and one thing that was very clear to us is that we want to work with the partners who are going to be the leaders in this space. And it was very clear we are going to be in the cloud side- we are going to be in hybrid cloud, we are going to have our own data centers. Everything that we built is going to replicate a cloud model. 'Cause it was very, like we said, what is 5G? Fundamentally, if you think about 5G, right? Everyone says people talk about speeds. Okay, get it. But it's also about vertical industries. It's about customization of a network, application driven network. That's the way I call it, because if you walk around the floor right now, everyone's talking about monetization of 5G, everyone keeps doing enterprise. So you put two and two together, what do you get? That means you have to work with the leaders who have been serving enterprises forever, who know the enterprises' pain, they know all the problem statements. So we said, "okay, let's see who's out there and who can help us." And then obviously, Dell comes to the picture. So we had a good conversation, there was an alignment in where Dell wanted to go long-term, so we saw synergies. So we had a vision, we needed their help. They wanted to get into this space too. So there was an agreement, let's do it together. And it's been a good partnership since then. >> What were some of the challenges that you had at that time? Going, "we've got some challenges here, some risks, we want to move DISH forward and automate." Talk about some of those challenges that helped you understand, "Yeah, Dell's the right partner for this." >> Oh, first is when we started this, right? I'll be honest, I don't think we anticipated the complexity. We didn't know what we didn't know. So initially it was learning from Dell, who was more like teaching us, "this is what you're going to see, this is how it's going to look like". And then we started bringing the telco aspects on top of it. So it was not like, "I'm going to build a 5G". We said, "no, Dell, tell me what does the data center look like? Tell me the day-to-day challenges. How do you bring a server in? How the rack looks like, what are the connectivity?" So, learning, then you bring the telco as an application, it was not like a telco first. It was like a software first, infrastructure second, now you bring in the telco part of it. So, I mean, challenges I would say, right? Everything was new, pretty much across the board for us. It was not just one thing. We were doing Open RAN, which was a brand new cloud native, was completely new. 5G standalone was new. No one had done that before, and (mumbles) was hybrid cloud. So I think we were on a stool sitting on the, with the four legs, all were wobbly. (laughs) We made it. So, automation was definitely the key. We knew we had to go at a scale, because we are in FCC deployment, we are meeting like- we will be at covering 230 million pops by June of this year. So, aggressive timelines- >> Dave Nicholson: Wait, say that again. How many, so say that ag- how many? >> 230 million. >> And, pops being points of presence? >> No, sorry, population. U. S.- >> Oh, population. Okay, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Okay, okay. >> Okay. I'm sorry, I'm- >> So, very aggressive buildout for us. >> Wow. >> And automation has to be the key for it, because we just cannot- first is, we cannot scale a company. We are a startup. This wireless is a startup. That's how we started with a handful of people. We obviously hired a lot of people since then, but we said, "we will never be at the scale of the existing CSPs today." We can't. Time is not on our side, and we don't want to be at that scale anyway, 'cause we want to be nimble, move fast. So what do you need? Automation. Automation at every layer. And it's a journey. Never stops. >> No, it doesn't stop. >> Oh yeah, I'm sorry. Yeah, she's- >> Go ahead and get a question in. I don't want to hog. >> So when most people hear DISH, they think of streaming content, they think of alternative to cable provider. >> Sidd: Yeah. >> In that space. But just clarify for us all of the things that DISH is involved with today, and what DISH aspires to be involved with as we move forward. >> Good question. We want to be in the connectivity space. We want to connect everything. That's our goal, our mission statement. We started with the satellite, since then we moved on to the IPTV Sling, which is a leader. So we are not afraid to take risks, right? So what we own- we own satellites, we know content delivery very well. I think we are done there for many years. We agreed to that. Now we said, "now we understand wireless". What we want to do is, we want to deliver the data to the customers, and whether it could be videos, it could be audio data, like voice, anything, or it could be a machine. We just want to be in the connectivity space of connecting everything, and based on- you look around, right? It's all about connectivity. Everything requires connectivity. It's all about data monetization, and we want to be there in every aspect of it. >> Connectivity is almost the lifeblood these days of everything that we do, right? >> Sidd: Yep. >> Song: Indeed. >> And of every industry. Song, talk a little bit about the DISH Wireless use case. How some of their challenges in telco really maybe helped even Dell accelerate its presence in telco. >> Absolutely, right. I think one thing that Sidd mentioned, right, 230 million populations, but what does that translate to in terms of infrastructure deployment? 'Cause he said it's a startup. They started from not a whole lot in terms of coverage. So, in terms of 5G deployment, whether it's virtualized or open RAN, there needs to be distributed infrastructure that covers the entire United States, right? A certain percentage of the population is still a huge amount of coverage. So deploy tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of servers around the country, get them set up, get 'em configured, and maintain and monitor and meter all of that. We help DISH to essentially roll that out, get it going, and then they deploy their RAN workload on top. I mean, that's a very significant undertaking. We were very proud to be able to offer our Bare Metal Orchestrator to facilitate that, but ultimately their success is their success. We are there to help, right? We are partnered, and we- happy to definitely be able to say we got to a point that we are happy, you know, in claims of success there. >> Well, that's why we selected Dell. >> Thank you. (chuckles) >> Let's unpack a little bit of some of the successes, some of the outcomes that you've achieved so far, working with Dell. >> Let me give an example. Today we have an ability to upgrade, update, even swap a RAN vendor overnight. Entire market, unheard of overnight. Give me hours, I'll do the entire thing for you from scratch. We can instantiate entire data center racks remotely in a matter of minutes. Cannot do that without automation, and with the help- >> Lisa Martin: Couldn't do it before. >> We have curated an extraordinary, what you call orchestration mechanism of finely tuned data sets and pipelines. It's like a machine. It keeps spinning. It's very good. And again, not something that happened overnight. Took us several months to get there with a lot of our partners, and Dell was there. >> Song: Right. >> I'd be curious to get your perspectives, each of you, on some of the buzz that was going on around the show where the telecom, "plumbing providers"- >> Sidd: Yep. >> have complained about the content streaming through, and maybe they need to charge more for access, and Netflix hit back and said, "well, hold on a minute. You wouldn't have anything to deliver to your customers if it weren't for the content we are producing. Maybe we need licensing fees from you." >> Song: (chuckles) >> What is your view on that, in terms of this whole over the top conversation? DISH seems sort of, kind of in a hybrid position there. >> Well, it's a very complex question. I think everyone is struggling with it, so I'm not sure if I have the right answer for it. We are definitely unique because we own the content too. We want to offer- we probably may offer our own content over the wireless service. There is a pros and cons. I mean, purely from a, as a M&O service provider, it's a lot of effort and cost for us to deliver huge amount of bandwidth. But again, the networks are being built to handle huge capacity. So if you don't have video, what do we do? That's also a realistic question. I think there is a mechanism where the cost and the value both have to be shared. So that it's a win-win for everyone. It's not lopsided to one. And said, "you carry most of the cost", and I'm transparent, it doesn't work that way long term. And especially given the 5G side, with all the slicing capabilities and ability to offer QoS, better quality of experience, I think there's a value to be created here. >> If you look at the infrastructure necessary to drive all of these things- >> Right. >> We've seen, just go back to our own consumer experience with the internet. We've gone from text to images to video. >> Song: Right. >> To high definition video. >> Sidd: Yeah. >> To, is 8K video absurd? Do we really need to be able to handle that? What are the things that need to be supported as we move forward? Is it that we scale out into this world of billions and billions of things that are connected? Or are there these much bigger, fatter pipelines for things like 8K video or it a combination of the two? What is Dell thinking of when it thinks of the infrastructure that it builds and how you customize that- >> Song: Right. >> to address those things? What's on the horizon? >> Dave, I think that's a very good question, right? Certainly communication service providers like DISH has built out the capacity to handle the customers that they want to serve. But there's another aspect of this I think I'd like to add on top of the question you posed, it's not about say, 10, say a thousand streams of 8K. I would need to be able to handle that. I think the present challenge right now is really, say there's a sports stadium that you need to activate so that, not about everyone filming that sports game, it's about, "Hey, I got to tell my, whoever- I got a 10 seconds video clip that I got to share with my friends." It's also not about copyright. It's more about- >> Dave Nicholson: (laughs) >> can you as a provider- >> The NFL is listening. >> Exactly. Can you as a provider handle that service? Because otherwise your customers say, "oh, I got into the sports stadium, every time I could not even text my daughter." >> Dave Nicholson: Yeah. >> So, how do you then scale up the infrastructure as needed, the bandwidth as needed, and scale back down when it's not? Maybe, because the infrastructure can potentially be repurposed for a different workload too. That requires automation, right? From bottom to top, all the way, infrastructure - all the way up to the workload. And that's I think a question that people are starting to ask. I'm not sure. I mean, still you guys have thought about that too as a- >> I mean, instant gratification is the new thing, right? Everyone wants instant response, everyone feedback, everything. So connectivity is given. I do think there is a space for both billions of devices and the 8K and probably 16K in the future. It's going to happen in the technology walls. That's why I like, say, the 5G, and especially the way we architect our own network. We call it network of networks. I'm not designing a network that is only for one monolithic application or one stack only. We are actually programmable network, because I know network A is for 8K. Network B is for IOT, network C is for regular, network D is for something else. And the list can keeps on growing. I don't think we can stifle innovation at any level and said, "well you can't do this because we are not ready." World is going to move too fast. Technology is too fast for all of us. >> But do you have to prioritize? >> If there is a business for- it's all top-down driven, not much of a technology driven. If there's a business, someone said there's a value to be made, it's prioritized. >> What's your - Sidd, we'll stick with you, your observations. This is day three of MWC 23. Lot of talk here on disaggregation. A lot of talk about open RAN, a lot of talk about private 5G wireless networks, but also some controversy. You brought up the Netflix controversy. >> Dave: Yep. >> What are some of the messages that you've heard so far from this event - and then, Song, we'll ask you the same question - that excite you about the direction that the industry's going and where DISH Wireless stands within it? >> Yeah. I mean, I didn't have a chance to walk the floor, but for wherever I have been in the last two and a half days, one thing that stood out is people are no longer talking about gigabits capacity anymore. They're talking about monetization of the network. Everyone is talking APIs now. >> Lisa Martin: Yeah. >> That's the buzzword. If I said monetization, API- I got a beautiful network not tell me how to make money off it and how do I work with each other? It's no longer about "I want to own it all." What can I do to partner with A, partner with B? How can we all grow together? I think that's the theme that I see this year compared to the previous years, where it was always about like, "hey, build the best 5G network with the high speeds, big radios." I don't even see radios, by the way. >> Lisa Martin: (chuckles) >> Interesting. Yeah. So the actual, it's almost fascinating when you toil in obscurity to build these critical components and then people ignore you. So I feel for the radio people. >> Song: (laughs) Being a long-term infrastructure guy, what have you been seeing here that's interesting? >> Well, a few things that I feel quite excited about from the conversation I've had. One is, on the private mobility side, Lisa, as you said, I'm seeing certainly customers, partners, and even in the booth talking about what the use cases are, right? Rather than, "Hey, here's a cool technology." But actually, people talking about use cases now. And, with the communication service providers and the operators, I'm hearing - of course, I mean, Sidd's doesn't have that problem because it's building whole new, >> (chuckles) >> but there are other providers that are saying, "Hey, we acknowledge that we need to transform and we are on the way too", rather than saying, "can I not do it and still, you know, live with the modern world." So I feel that we always need to be ready to change, because the world, the market, and all other factors will cause us to either change or really to change. And I think we are changing. Open system is becoming more of a expected, you know, future. It's just how do we get there, right? What do we need to learn as we get there? And we're happy to provide the support as a partner, the automation technology, and even the solutions to enable that, from Dell's perspective. >> So DISH in particular? DISH Wireless. >> Yep. >> Despite the fact that everyone's heard of DISH. >> Song: Yeah. >> DISH has been around for a long time. Where you sit within DISH Wireless, you described it as a startup. You don't feel encumbered by a lot of the legacy things that maybe some other providers do. Is that a fair statement or are you having to navigate that? We call it ambidextrous management >> (laughs) >> in the CTO world, where it's like, got to keep the lights on, got to keep the existing revenue flowing, also got to innovate. How do you blend the two? Is that a challenge? >> Well, probably not a challenge for me. I'm on the wireless technology and architecture side, so I get to do the cool stuff. >> Dave Nicholson: Okay. >> Don't have to worry about day to day operations, some complexity or revenue. Someone else is managing that complex part. They let me play with my toys. >> Well played, well played. >> Guys, it's been great having you on the program talking about what DISH Wireless is doing with Dell. Thanks to Dell. We're going to be watching this space to see how you continue to innovate. Thank you so much for joining us on the program. >> Thanks for having us. >> Thank you. >> Our pleasure. >> For our guests and for Dave Nicholson. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE live from MWC 23. Stick around. Our next guest joins Dave and me in just a minute. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music)

>>live from Orlando, Florida It's the cue covering Microsoft Ignite Brought to you by Cho He City Welcome >>back, everyone to the Cubes Live coverage of Microsoft IC Night. 26,000 people were here. The cube, the middle of the show floor. It's an exciting time. I'm your host. Rebecca Night, along with my co host, Stew Minutemen. We're joined by Barbara Homans. She is the director. Global ecosystem strategy and micro ecosystem lead at HP Thank you so much for coming on the Cube direct from Munich. Yes, Rebecca. Glad to be here. So you have You have two Rolls Global Ecosystem Strategy and Michael Microsoft's ecosystem lead. Explain how those work and how they there is synergy between those two roles. Yeah, I mean, I started >>off with the Microsoft role, but what we figured out is that actually, the world is much bigger than just one alliance, and that's why we call ourselves the Ecosystem. So it's all about driving alliances from different partner speed as I speed Eyes V's or also smaller partners in different segments and build a whole ecosystem play. That's what I'm attempting to do. >>So how do HB and Microsoft worked together. So we've >>seen partnering for 30 years strong, strong relationship with Microsoft and really nice to see. Also today, you know some of the H p e solutions on stage and even deepening our partnership. We have several areas. Probably 34 I can talk about in the next few minutes on how we work together with Microsoft specifically. >>Yeah. So? So Barbara, You know, I think most of us remember back, you know, early if you're talking about windows and office and you know HP here what's now part of HP Inc? Not sure. As many people know about all of the places that H p e Partners, obviously on the server side, it makes sense. But Azure is something. And the Azure arc announcement Help us understand, you know, Azure stack and beyond. Where? HP. Ethan with Microsoft on the Enterprise side. >>Perfect. Absolutely. We have still in Microsoft. Oh, am business where we have actually service attached with licenses. That's not going away rights. We absolutely. It's a strong business class. We work very closely around sequel with Microsoft, and that's also worried this whole azure arc announcement fits in. But it's more than just a sequel right with this as your arc. For me, it's a announcement around deepening relationships. Both. We're interested in a hybrid strategy. I really like Thio here from Satya today. How important hybrid is for Microsoft and this announcement as your ark. That's in public preview now, right? Well, give somewhat details on that. So we'd love to work with customers on that we actually our part of the public review and if anyone is interested, love to hear from customers. Please come to me, Barbara Holman's and we'll hook you up and get into the program. It's really about the hybrid piece, right that we both worked >>in Barbara H. P. E. If my understanding plays on both sides of it, it's not just in the data center with some gear there, but as you said, there's a sequel. The application side, you know, hybrid HP, you know, plays across the board, >>Indeed, So I don't know if you know about HB is actually a expert MSP partner for Azure. We got that last year. We're very proud of what I think we're one of 50 world by its partners. That also means we can actually offer Manage Service's Migration Service is helping people to move to an azure based clout. And that actually came partially because off our position off CTP Cloud Technology Partners, but also read pixie in the UK, and there are no old part off our point. Next service is group, and so as such, we have numerous customers were actually helped into the public cloud. Help them to find the right place. Because if you don't know if you've seen the video from Eric Poodle, that was part of the announcement today as well around as your ark, this is all about finding the right mix off your applications, and this is where we work together and a perfect fit. >>What are some of the biggest challenges you're seeing from your cut from your customers in terms of how you might, how Azure Arc might be the solution for them >>so as your ark? It's hard to say at this >>stage, because I just really don't work for Michael >>Self. So, yeah, we have to ask these people. But again, what I understand division is really that way will be able to manage hybrid environments in a in a better way, and again, this is what HP You know, we have a lot off our tour, of course, but we also announce that our hardware, all of that, will be available as a service within the next two for years. So we're moving in that direction in addition to Azure. And I think this will help customers to take adventures in the end. But it's hard to say Right, So you on this. This is very new. At this stage, the odds are right >>and this is a Microsoft show, not on HP show, but I I read somewhere that you had done a talk. Fear no cloud with H. P m. Our company's afraid. I mean, how would you describe the atmosphere with the companies that you work with? I worked >>in the cloud space, but for the last 10 years or longer, you know, it was on different parts off the industry there and from the early adoption. Really. People looking into you know, should I trust my data in this specific with this cloud provider or which applications am I gonna move? And I think today people have lost the fear a little bit, but they still don't know what to put where and there's applications, you do not want to move in a cloud. There's others that you for your specific company, you don't want to move, and another company may do that. And that's what we're trying to help them, right? So don't you don't have to fear the cloud you can. Actually, we can help you to adopt it at your pace in your way and so that you take most of the advantage out of it. >>But Barbara would love to hear any color you could give from the joint HP, EA and Microsoft customers very much. The announcement today feels like it completely. It's an update on the hybrid message, but A B and Microsoft have been working together on solutions like Azure Stack for a number of years. So what? What's working well today? What do you think you know? This will mean down the road a CZ. Some of these solutions start start to mature even further. >>Maybe moving to another area that HB and Microsoft worked very well together is around the modern workplace practice, and in there we just had a really nice win with Portia thing, actually in Austria, but planning to roll this out no further than that, and h b E's team has helped them to move from the current applicator from the current environment. Thio up two dates. Microsoft 3 65 Environment There's em OD in the UK and it's fast twice if I can talk about M. O D on stage here and they said yes, another customer that we should help to move to a Microsoft 3 65 environment. So there's numerous customers that trust HP with Microsoft in moving their their information to the to the clouds. Yeah, that's one example Asha Stack we have. You know, there's several customers that hard won about ashes. Takis. Difficult to talk about the customers because a lot of them are in the government sector on. So you know, there's a few that we can talk about, but they're mostly service providers, but the really big names, unfortunately, we can talk about because of the conference shit Confidentiality. Yeah, >>trust is one of the things that we keep hearing so much of it about at this conference. Satya Nadella talked about it on the main stage this morning in terms of the relationship that you have and HP standing in the technology world. How do you feel trust with customers? And how do you make sure you are maintaining that? That bond of trust and also the reputation of being a trustworthy partner? >>Yeah, I think I love you know, I love Saturdays, Point on trust because that actually makes the difference between you. Just deliver hardware and you walk away. And this is probably coming back to Azure stack Hop, as it's called now, right? You know, we've been told actually by Microsoft that we've accomplished with the customers from a delivery from a You know, we don't just walk away and say Good luck with the equipment you're on your own really helped them thio and make sure it's working for them. So for me, that's the key that you can come back to a customer afterwards and the customer will actually have you in your office again. >>Well, Barbara, I think back for most of my career what one of the hallmarks of an H. P e solution Was that the turnkey offering we know from, you know, ordering through delivery through, you know, up and running. HP has been streamlining that you know, I think back my entire career cloud has been not necessarily the simplest solutions out there. So maybe give us directionally. How does HPD partner with Microsoft on dhe your customers toe make? I would easier as WeII go through this journey >>S O s aside. Whereas your expert MSP partner a such we have done several of course trainings with Microsoft. We make sure that our people are educated on it way have, you know, with red pixy in the UK it's now part of point next, but I love to say the name because people really associate still with this a specific, strong and trustworthy team. You really build up a very good practice with Microsoft. There's, you know, local deal clinics where we really work in the specific deal. Steal by deal on how we can make it better for the customer. So a lot off local engagement. But for me, that all happens in country. Write me at a global level. I can only help them and steered a little bit. But that's also for me trust. It's a person to person relationship that happens in country. >>And would you say there are big differences country to country in terms of how willingly trust you and and and then how long it takes to build that relationship. >>So I'm gonna get in >>trouble now with some of the country. >>No, I you know the >>somewhere, even your CEO. >>You know, it's no, I mean you and I personally lift in Canada for a while, and so for me, it's some people are harder, you know, you need to get to know them. But then trust is even deeper then some of the others. But I have to say, it's all we're I mean, we're, I would say, from all those who look at h p were really a global company, right? And from this goes from Japan, Thio South Pacific too. You know, many countries in Asia will be very successful with ashes, stack specifically and always in Europe, the Middle East, all the way to North America, South America. So, I mean, that's the nice thing about HPD, I would say for the customers as well that they really get a global view on DA, a global company that can trust. >>So you're here, Ed ignite from Germany. What are the kinds of conversations you're having. And what do you think you're gonna take back with you when you go back to the office next week? So the other piece >>and we have ah, quite big. Both hear it at the event, right? We have a very nice edge line 8000 with us, which is kind of a ruggedized us or a smaller version. It's kindof almost my hand back, kind of to carry along, which has caught a lot of interest from the customers. So just standing there, watching the customers, asking, What is it? Can you tell me more about it? Rest is, you know, I love the bus and I love the actually part of the Microsoft Advisory Council for inspired, which is the partner event, right? But I love the bus to see here what's what's going on and always like to see how other people what they do, what they what they do at these events and then just Microsoft. I think it's wonderful, wonderful company. The inspiration. The story today was just into end a great story with great customer stories as well. So she does to the Microsoft team. Well done. >>Congratulations. Your gear was highlighted in the keynote this morning, so I'm sure that's driving a lot of traffic through for people Thio CC the latest. >>I would >>hope Superdome flex was there and then the actual stick. Both of them were there. So we worked hard for that. Thank you, Michael Self, for giving us the opportunity to be present and the keynote today. Well, >>thank you so much for coming on the Cube. It was a pleasure having you on Barbara. >>Thank you, Rebecca. Thank you. Stupid. >>I'm Rebecca Knight. First to minimum. Stay tuned for more of cubes. Live coverage of Microsoft ignite.

>> from our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley, Palo Alto, California It is a cute conversation >> live in. Welcome to a special cube conversation here in Palo Alto. The Cube Studios. Jon, for your host. We're here with a special panel. Talk about the new brand of tech leaders in this era of cloud computing data. Aye, aye. And engineering excellence with us. We have Christine Heckart to CEO of Scaler J. P. Krishna of Marthe Moorthy. These s VP of engineering a Copa software and Patna saying, VP of engineering a glass door. Guys, welcome to come the Cube conversation. Welcome, engineer. And you guys are all running engineering organizations. You've been a former engineer now running a big company CEO, engineering led company. This is a big trend that's clearly defined. No one needs any validation. Cloud computing has certainly changed the game, eh? I certainly the hottest trend with respect, the data machine learning and the benefits. They're changing the cultures of companies changing how things were built, how people are hired. You're starting to see a complete shift towards old way and new ways. I want to get your thoughts about the engineering opportunities. What is engineering excellence today mean in this modern error? >> Well, for us it we talk a lot about mastery and setting up an environment where engineers have a chance to build their own mastery. But they can also have the necessary tools and technologies to be master of their domain. And these domains, especially if it's cloud base. They're very distributed. They're very, very fast moving. There's a lot of continual risk s so you have to set them up in the right way so they could be successful. >> What's your thoughts? I mean, you guys air cutting edge startup? >> Yes. For us, it's very important that the environment, the working moment for engineers, is organically inspiring. And what I mean by that is when every engineer no, why are there what are they doing? Well, how their work is impacting the company in the business initiators. At the same time, we are making sure that their interests are aligned with Albert projects and work in a way that we are also in a healthy, very extending and stretching their skills when their work has a purpose. And that's what our mission is, which is we want to make sure that everybody finds an opportunity where they feel there's a purpose that its purpose driven, that's when we feel like it. That's a great environment where they will be inspired to come every day and deliver their 110% >> J p excellence and engineering. I mean, this is what people strive for. >> So excellent points from both off them and I. I think I have a slightly different take on it as well. Today's business is we are asked to respond really, really fast, maybe hear the tongue a gel everywhere, John, right? So it's about how do we respond to the needs of the business as quickly as you can On dhe, it becomes the mantra for the organization. Having said that, there is another side to it. The dark side is technical debt. That's something we all have toe grapple with because you're moving fast, you're making decisions. You're hoping things all right, You want to prove your thesis out there, but at the same time, you don't wantto put yourself behind so that it might come and bite you later. So it's finding that balance is really, really important, and that becomes the focal point of the organization. How do you move fast, but at the same time Hold it. Oh, do you not slow yourself down in the >> future? That's a great point. I want to get probably your thoughts. That's because open source has been really a different game changer from the old way to the new way. Because you could work with people from different companies. You can work on projects that a better man for other people as well. So it's got a communal aspect to it. But also there is an element of speed the same time agile forces, this kind of concept. So technical debt. You want to move fast, we gotta recover. You kind of know how to get there. How is open source? Change that in Europe in >> well, number one thing that opens and allows all smaller company especially but more companies is that now you you can take on an open source project and start rather starting from ground zero. You can start somewhere where you know it's already helped, and you have a framework ready to start working on. So you're not every two single time we're building our thinking off a new idea you're not starting. Okay, Now let me school start from ground up, right? So you already are at a certain level, the second area where, like you said, you know, we're a Joe. Uh, we have open source, but we also have certain level of customization that the customers needed our application needs. And that's what inspires engineers as well, which is taking the challenger for K. We have a code based. Now let me build something more interesting, more innovative. And then what they also love is giving back to the community. It's we're not. The companies are not just tech community engineering team. We are have a bigger engineering community now, the whole tackle, and that's what makes a big difference for us working in Silicon Valley to even be part of that and contributing factor. >> J P Talk about technical debt when it comes back to the modern era because you can go back to It's been around for a while. Technical dead concerts, not new, but it's always been kind of the water cooler come with core lead engineer and the team. The Aussies have a term called feature creeping. You know, the old days. I don't get it. The feature creep. Actually, it kind of takes it away because of you. If you're applying technical debt properly, you're managing the velocity of the project. So the question is, how is technical debt evolved to the management levels of senior engineering managers? Because that seems to be a key variable in managing the speed and quality of the teams with managing the table. Done. Now, management is what some other conversations. >> So the game depends on the stage of the company Onda stage of the projects you are. If you're in a really mature suffer environment, very you're not making a lot of change. It's OK. It's not the primary conversation off the topic. But if you're trying to you capture a market or promote an idea, it becomes the fundamental thesis, forgetting things out there quickly Now, getting things out there quickly doesn't mean you get to let users suffer. You had to build it in the right way, needs toe work, but at the same time it needs to be just enough so that we can We can get the feedback from from the user's on. At the same time, you probably would have left out potentially features on. Maybe you didn't even make certain decisions on Let's say, hi availability or our scalability. Maybe you wanna prove it out in only one region of the world and so on. So you have to find those balances, and it becomes part of the planning conversations right in the front. And as you go into the further iterations of the product, it becomes part of the prioritization conversation of the product managers because it's not just about getting one part done and getting it out there. But as it reached the full level of maturity that you would want, >> I'm sure there's a lot of debates about an engineer organizations because, you know, engineers a very vocal you. Yeah, so you could fall in love with your product of your time to market, maybe taking some technical debt to get product market fit. And that's my baby, though, when you got a re platform or re scale it to make it scale, bringing with your point you mentioned. How do you guys manage? Because this becomes a talent management. People say, Oh, you gotta manage the ECOWAS. But if some people are managing the project in there. They're going to fire over their skis on technical debt. You gotta kind of rain that in. How do you guys manage the people side of the equation? That because it's an art and a science at the same time? What's your thoughts? >> Well, I'll say this, um, supporting al aspects of change, right? That's also is an injury leader. It's a core responsibility and call it a priority for us, not just the technical debt, but also the market shifts. Technology shifts. We have new tech coming in. We have involving in evolving every technology. So how do via dear to and make sure that it's very important that engineering is supporting and kind of coming up with these technologies a tte the same time? We are not just pulling down to their version of grades and all of them, so in a jest, it's it's a core aspect of leadership to make sure that you, as we are supporting these changes, were also making sure that these changes are not pulling us down. So that should be proper quality checks. There should be a proper conversation and roadmap items which is saying that it's not attack debt. It's more of a tech investment, and we are talking about so that we're in lock steps with our business partner and not behind, so that now we're saying Okay, we need a whole quarter to develop new things. So it's an aspect of filmmaking. Sure, team this motivated >> This comes back to culture. Next question. I want to get you guys thoughts on this building. A positive work culture given engineering led organization. Christine, you're leading that now to start up because your own real fast a lot. A lot of engineers. They're probably a lot of opinions on what that looks like. What is the cultural quick? Because this sets the DNA early on for startup. But as you're maturing organization, you gotta track the best talent. And some say, Well, we work on We saw hard problems. That's kind of cliche, but ultimately you do have to kind of have that problem solving aspect. You gotta have a culture what is a successful work culture for engineering. >> So every everybody talks about engineers wanna solve hard problems. I think that's true. But as Pablo said earlier, if you can help every engineer connect what they're doing, every day to the higher purpose. The organization to the problem that you're solving and how that makes the customers like better in our case, were accompanied by engineers for engineer. So our engineers get really excited about giving other engineers in the world a better day. We have taken it one step further recently by starting a peer network because one of my observations coming into this organization is there are so many peer networks in I t. Because it's been a 30 year industry. There are tons of pure organizations for CEOs. There are tons appear organizations for C. M. O's, but there really aren't for engineers. And if we want to help engineers really develop their career and their full skill set and therefore develop into their full potential, it's about more than just training them. It's about giving them context and full social skills and giving them places where they can learn not just from the other engineers in their company, but from engineers across the organization or across the industry at their same level, and maybe from very different industries and maybe in very different environments. So I think in our case, you know, really trying to bring these peer networks together has been one way that we can not only pay it forward for our own engineers, but also help a lot of other engineers around of the industry >> how you guys handling the engineering talent pertaining, attracting and keeping the best now. >> So I think that's where the whole company comes together, in my view. So as an injuring leader, it's not just that I said the tune of my engineering or as to what? That hiring his top priority. It's where the whole company comes together. You're recruiting team to build the stellar interview process. You are, you know, heads of other orcs to make sure that across the board you're helping define a mission for your company that resonates with your candidates who would want to work with you. So it's a collective effort of building a stellar environment for us glass door when one of the few values is transparency and we live and die by it, which means that when someone is higher, they need to see that be within the company. We are transparent, so we'd share a lot of data. A lot of information, good and bad with every single person in the company. It's never, um, hidden at the same time. We build and set up trust in them to say, Hey, it's confidential. Make sure that it doesn't leave the company and it's been 11 years and it hasn't It has never been the case. >> What class door you don't want have a glass door entry on black. Gotta be transparent. That's the culture. Culture matters minutes. Your culture is all about sharing and being open. >> You will see it. So that's what this is, what God goes down spike for as well, right? Building transparency within the company culture and more and more as we see many stories that we have seen for various companies. And sometimes I get a bad story, too, and I get an invitation. Oh, you're from class door, you know. But that helps overall Rios living and working for user's and professionals. >> Cross is big for you guys, >> absolutely professionals who are in this world looking for a job and life because you're spending a lot of time at work. So we want you to get up every day and be inspired and happy about where you're going to work and for that. That's why we have sharing a lot of the insights about the company's from reviews and ratings and CEO data to make sure that when you make your decision of the next move, you are you can be fully trust. You could be fully confident that the date of your sharing the new with that you're making a good decision. >> J. P. Your thoughts. You guys are on a tear. We've got a great coverage of your the annual conference in Vegas. Recent cube coverage. Your company on paper looks like you're targeting one segment, but you have a lot of range and you're technical platform with data. Um, how you guys articulating to engineering? How do you keep them? What if some of the stories you tell them to attract them to join you guys? >> So number one thing is about the talent that we already have in hopes. So people want to come to work at a place where they can learn, contribute on dhe, also for their Carrie Carrie Respert, both inside Cooper and as the lead on coming into Cooper. They look at it and they say, Oh, you have ah, wide variety of things going on here. You're solving a business problem. But at the same time, the technology stocks are different. You're on all the best clothes are there, so that's an easy attraction for them to come in. But also, it's not just about getting people, and how do you retain them on? We've been lucky. That had very low tuition for many years. Right now in the engineering organization, especially in the value, it is a big deal. Andi. I think part of the things that that is the collaboration and cooperation that they get from everybody on. You know, it's an age old saying diversity and thought, unity in action, right? So I really promote people thinking about radius ideas and alternatives. But there is a time for that debate. And once we agree on a solution, we all pulled in and try to make that successful. And then you repeat that often, and it becomes part of part of the culture and the way the organization operates as >> a follow up to culture. One thing that's become pretty clear is that's global engineering. You mention the valley very competitive, some start ups that they get on that rocket ship can get all the great talent. If you will public everyone. Everyone gets rich of one's happy, a good mission behind it, you know, win win outside. Some stars have to attract talent. You've got to start going on here. You might have a good colonel of great engineers, but you have development environments all over the world, so remote is a big thing. How do you manage the engineer remote? It's a time zone base. Does it put leaders in charge? Is there a philosophy in the Amazon? Has a two pizza team is their big thing. You get small groups. How did you guys view the engineering makeup? Because this becomes a part of the operational tension but operating model of engineering thoughts >> I can go first. I think there is a tension between keeping teams working on one problem on not distributing it across the world for efficiency reasons. But at the same time, how do you all owe for continuity, especially if you have a problem in one area? Can somebody else from another region step in in a different time zone continuing? That's always a problem, and then the other one is in a landscape like ours, in which is not uncommon for many, many companies. It is not that they built a lot of fragmented things. They all need to work together. So having a level of continuity within the radius remote centers is really critical on everybody has their own recipe for this one. But the ones that works for us and I've seen that played out many times, is if you can get a set off teams, toe, focus on certain problem areas and become experts in those >> cohesive within their >> within the physical, and then also have enough critical mass within a center that gives you the good balance between working on. One thing. Worse is knowing everything. So so that works for us, and I I think that's that's the way to get out >> of the operating system. It is a couple highly cohesive, >> and you need to have the right technical leaders on both sides and be willing to collaborate with each other >> partner thoughts >> I want to emphasize on the last statement you really need strong good, really, you know, trusted leaders in the location to Canada, then inculcated more bigger team everything Glassdoor groove from one location to four locations in last three years. And one thing that we learned after our first remote location that we started was that when we seeded our new remote location with few people from the original location that hoped start, you know, the similar aspects of what glassware stands for and over core at those and values. And then, as we added, new people, they just can easily just transfer to them so that hope does in a big way. And then he moved to Chicago with the same idea and, of course, Brazil. Now with the same >> knowledge transfer culture transfer, >> it all makes it easy. Even you have few people seating from the original location that was court for us. >> Pop in actually started their first remote office in San Francisco, which has now become their headquarters. So she has a lot of experience. Everyone of scale er's customers globally. You know, we sell the engineer, so we're dealing with with our customers who are dealing with this problem all the time. And in addition to culture, one thing that seems to bubble up regularly is can do you know when they need a common tool set and where they can do their own thing. How do you, you know, balance that and where do you need a single source of truth that people can agree on? And again, where can people have different points of view? >> You're talking sing associates from code base to what could >> be whatever, Like in our case, it's yeah, if you're going to troubleshoot something, you know, where the logs, the truth in the logs, Are you gonna have a single source for that? But for other people, it could be the data that they're bringing in or how they analyze the business. But if you can be proactive about understanding, when is commonality of tools of approach, of philosophy, of data, whatever, when it's commonality going to be what we drive and when are we going to allow people to do their own thing? And if you can put that framework in place than people know when they have the latitude and when they got a snap to grit and you could move a lot more quickly and there's kind of a technical debt that isn't code based? It's more about this kind of stuff, right? It's tool based its process and culture based. And if you can be more proactive about avoiding that debt, then you're gonna move more quickly. >> Videoconferencing. Very, very important. You should be able to jump on a video Constance very easily to be able to connect with someone driving just a phone calls all of these face time, different areas of face time Technology plays a big role >> technology. This is This is a modern management challenge for the new way to leave because it used to be just outsource. Here's the specs member, the old P. R. D S and M R D's. There's the specs, and you just kind of build it. Now it's much more collaborative to your point. There's really product and engineering going on, and it's gotta be. It's evolving. This is a key new ingredient >> because the expectation on the quality of product is so much more higher than competition is so much more. >> And when you know these engineers build in a lot of cases, they have to operate it now. So, like you say, whether it's a free service to a consumer, Aurens in enterprise, the expectation is perfect. No downtime, no hiccups >> and the reward incentives now become a big part of this now. New way of doing things. So I gotta ask the natural question. What's the reward system? Because Google really kind of pioneered the idea of a host 20% of your time work on your own project. That was about a decade or so ago. Now it's evolved beyond that to free lunches and all these other perks, but this has got to appeal to the human being behind it. What are some of the reward mechanisms? You guys see his management that's that's helpful in growing, nurturing and scaling up engineering organizations. >> Well, engineers are human, and as every human autonomy is critical for any aspects of moderation. And that's what please the core level. Then, of course, lunches, matter and other perks and benefits matter. Snacks of pours. Good coffee machine definitely is the core of it, but autonomy of what you want to do and is that the line. But what we want or what we are trying to deliver, and the aspect and the information of I did and rolled this out, what was the impact of it? That new should go back to that engineer who built that. So threading it through to the end and from the start is its very core for everybody to know because I want to know what I'm as I'm going every day. How is it helping >> and we really try. I personally try Thio. Make sure that each human on the team, regardless of their function, that we understand their potential and their career aspirations because a lot of times the the normal ladder, whatever that lander is, might not be right for every person. And people can pivot and use their skills in very, very different ways, and we need to invest in their ability to try new things. If it doesn't work out, let him come back. So you know, we try to spend time as a company for engineers not just in our company, but beyond. To really help them build out their own career, build out their own brands. Engineers more and more could be, you know, on TV shows and doing blog's and building out their own personal brand in their point of view. And that gives them impact. That goes beyond the one piece of code that they're writing for a company in a given day or a week. >> J. P you guys went public stock options. All these things going on as well. Your thoughts? Yeah, >> I just came back from a trip to my newest Dev center in Hyderabad, India. It's funny. I had sessions with every team over there. The number one topic was full >> s >> so excited about food. So there is something primal about food. Having said that, I think, uh, praise and recognition the age old things. They matter so much. That's what I've seen You acknowledge what somebody has done and kind of feedback to elect partner was saying, The impact that it creates, you know, it's it's a lot more fulfilling than monetary incentives. Not that they're not useful. Occasionally they are. But I think repeating that on doing it more often creates a sense off. Okay, here's what we can accomplish as a team. It is how I can contribute to it, and that creates a normal sense of purpose. >> Austin, you guys talked about tools of commonality is kind of key. It's always gonna be debates about which tools, much codes, languages to use, encoding, etcetera. But this brings up the notion of application development as you get continuous development. This is the operating model for modern engineering. What's the state of the art? What do you guys seeing as a best practice as managers to keep the machinery humming and moving along? And what what's on the horizon? What's next? >> Yeah, in my view, I would just say So what's humming and what state of the art I think I is core thio. Most of the systems and applications, the, uh, the core aspect of pretty much every company as you see, and that's the buzz word, even in Silicon Valley for the right reasons, is how we have built our platforms, insistence and ideas. But now let's make it smarter, and every company now has a lot of data. We are swimming in data, but it's very important that we can pick and pull the the core insides from that data to then power the same product and same system to make it more smarter, right? The whole goal for us ourselves is where they're making our platform or smarter, with the goal of making it more personalized and making sure that as users are navigating a project, pages they are seeing more personalized information so that they're not wasting their time there. We can make faster decisions in more rich data set, which is very catered towards them. So smart, so building that intelligence is core. >> And with continues, integration comes, continues risk. All right, so no risk, no reward. And so we live in an era of freemium. Free service is so you know why not take the risk? You don't have to do an A B test. You got digital. You do a B, C D and use all kinds of analytics. So this is actually a creative opportunity for engineering as they get to the front lines you mentioned earlier getting part of the empowerment. How is the risk taking changing the management? >> You know, I deal with class off users were willing to pay money, so I don't know if I can talk a lot about the freedom aspect of the problem. But now there's always desire for new functionality. If you want it, otherwise you don't want it. There's a lot of risk of worsens that's still floating around, especially in the interprets there today. On it is a big tension that you have to deal with. If you're not careful, then you can introduce problems on believing you're operating on the cloud and you're servicing thousands of customers. A small change can bring down the entire ecosystem, so you'll take it very seriously. You're helping others run their business, and that means you had invest in the right tools and processes. >> So you guys are actually Freemium business model, but still engineers. I got a test that they want to take the rhythms. So is it a cloud sand boxing? How is the risk taking managed? How you guys encouraging risk without having people hurt? You don't >> wantto overburden engineers to the point. They feel stifled and they cannot do anything. So there is a right balance. So you know, there are many techniques we follow the. For example, we roll out the software, tow US staging environment so customers can play around and make sure things are not breaking for their comfort more so than for us. But it is an important part of the equation, and then internally, you have to invest a lot of planning. Appropriately, there are the high risk content on the features, and then there are the low risk ones. You want to think about experimentation frameworks in no way be testing and so on and more importantly, about automation and testing. I don't think if a customer logs a bug and finds the problem, they don't want to see it one more time. Ever really have to make sure that those things don't happen when you're investing robust automation around testing processes because there isn't enough time for the complexity of these applications for destiny thing, man, >> this whale automation with cloud comes in containers kubernetes. All of >> those things, you know you heard will enable engineers with the technology said so that they contested scale. You have to provide access to production like data because you have to worry about no privacy, security and all those aspects. But at the same time, they need to have access to the variety off configurations that are out there so that they contested meaningful so to invest in all of those things. >> But I'll take it back to kind of where we started. This, which is the human factor with continuous delivery, is this continuous risk, and it doesn't matter if this engineer is supporting a free consumer application or the highest end of enterprise. When something goes wrong, this, their stress level goes through the roof and you know, how can we equipped? These people, too, solve problems in real time to have that visibility, to have whatever tool said or date or whatever they need? Because at the end of the day, a bad day for an engineer is a day when something is breaking and they're the ones that have to stay up all night and fix it and a good day for an engineer. A human being is the day they get to go home and have dinner with the family or not be woken up in the night. And there is >> for kite surfing or whatever, you >> know, whatever they dio, there's, you know, there is truly a human way. We think about engineers and engineers get up every day, and they want to change the world and they want to make an impact. And thank God we have, you know, teams of engineers that do that for all of us, and they're human beings, and there's a level of continuous stress that we've injected into their lives every day and to the extent that we, as companies and managers and leaders, can help take some of that burden off of them. The world becomes >> the whole being seeing the results of their work to is rewarding as well. >> Scaler does a lot of stuff there, so I have to call that are at the same time in a lot of very good nuggets, J P. Brother. But one more thing that has shifted in terms of how process of practice works is more of more. Engineers now participate very early on in product development is in the day. They try to understand what is the context and why are we doing. And we do a lot of users research to understand that that process, so that they have full context, that they are building in developing eso they're more of a partner now and not an afterthought. >> Think agile And Dev ops to me has proven that the notion of silos and waterfall practices has democratizing flatten. The organization's out where interdisciplinary crossovers are happening. >> Oh, yes, >> and this has been an interesting art of management is encouraging the right person that crust over the right line was you give people little taste, but sometimes they may not belong there kind of called herding cats in the old days. But now it's more of managing kind of interests and growth there. >> That original Dev ops model, though if you have anybody read the Phoenix project like years ago, but it it was really about bringing different points of view. It's a diversity thing. It's bringing different points of view around the table before the first line. It is written so that you're thinking about every angle on the problem and on the ongoing operation of whatever you're building >> Well, it's all about diversity and inclusion and diversity. I was with states, inclusion and diversity, diversity, inclusion Because male and females are involved. We have two females in tech here. This has been a discussion. We still don't have the numbers up to the senior levels within engineering in general. What has to happen to move the needle for women in tech and or inclusionary people involved in engineering to get the right perspective? What's what's >> not? Start with J P because he's actually a huge champion, and without the men involved, we don't have a solutions, >> inclusion and diversity, J. P your thoughts on this was super important. >> Yeah, Number one is recognition. I was stealing Christine yesterday. I just came back from India. That's like told you I took a picture there of my management team. Came back here, looked at it. There is no female, No right, it's crazy. I mean, it's not that we're not trying on gum it. We had the same problem and we started our center in 2015 right? There was a group picture off the team. There was like they were like two women on the thing. We put a lot of effort into it on. Two years later, a significant chunk of the organization has got women embedded in the team's came because we tried. We went out. Look, for those who are good in this area is not that we compromised on the qualifications. It's really about putting some energy in tow, getting the right resumes and then looking at it. The other thing. We're also doing his cultivation. You have to go to the grassroots because there are just enough women engineers. It's unfortunate, for whatever reasons, they're not taking up that professional military enough studies written on it So last two years we weigh, have conducted something called rails. Girls in India, 150 school age children, Women. I mean, girls come in and then we have supported them, run their classes, hold a class. And that helps, you know, even if 10% off them, you know, choose to take up this profession. It's gonna be a big boost. And we have to do a lot more of those in my opinion. >> Europe T rex President Leading Engineering. What's your view? >> Well, I'll say this, you know, for the people who are participating in helping drive this mission just like J. P. I say thank you, especially for men who are participating in it. We cannot do this without you, but for all the people who, if they're not participate in participating in helping drive this mission, I have all share this one data, uh, one of the initiative that glass or drives this gender pay gap, which is also an outcome off, not having diverse outlook at all levels into in the workplace. And we in our economic research team. They did a study and they shared a projection off when will be closed. The gender pay gap. It's 2017. That's depressing. So for for me, when I hear people who say you know, they, they don't want to participate or they don't think this is the right approach of solving for diversity in workplace, I say Okay, but that's not the reason for you to not participate and stay out. If it join it, join it in your own way. But it's only when l offers. Can I see it as a real problem and participate just like Gibby, as you said grassroot level as well as outside One of the example that I told my team when they say, You know, we don't want to drop the bar, the quality bar, I say Sure, don't drive it, but don't drop it. But if you have two candidates, one with a diverse background, Um, who who might be after cable to the same job in 2 to 3 months over someone who slam dunk today, let's invest in the person who is bringing the diverse background for 2 to 3 months and then make them successful. That's not dropping the bar that's still supporting and investing in helping diversity. >> My good friend and heat you saw at IBM. They put out a survey said Diversity, inclusion, diversity. First companies have a bit of advantage, so the investment is so much lower in the bars, more bringing perspective because if we tell about software here has male and female and that's being 17% female, it's >> not just, you know, I had two things to the comments, all of which I agree with one. It's not just a pipeline problem. It is a a culture problem where people have to feel welcome and it has to be a comfortable environment, and they have to believe that their diverse point of view matters and doesn't matter if they're men or women. But there are lots of times when we all make it hard for somebody with a different point of view to enter the conversation. So we have to do a better job of creating the culture, and secondly, there's a saying you have to see it to be it. We have to see people of diversity, gender and of every other type, cognitive diversity of all types at every level in the company. And, you know, we had the same thing, so I'm lucky enough to send a Fortune 500 public board. And I spend a lot of my time helping women and people of color and diversity get on public boards. But if you go back seven years ago, we were 14% women on public boards and it did not move and it did not move and it did not move and in one year popped over 20%. And that's before the loss. So you know, you make these linear projections we can with effort, yes, actually make >> a >> difference. It just takes a very concerted effort. And in this case, particularly for engineering and for leadership, it is making a concerted effort at every level, from board to CEO to executive team to all levels down. Making sure we have inclusion and diversity in >> this is a modern management challenge in the new way of leading managing >> this process. These things, This >> is the big challenge, folks, thanks so much for coming on. Really appreciate. Final question for you guys is what if you could summarize the new way to lead and his modern error from an engineering standpoint, building out of companies building along durable value creation with its company a product or service. What is the key keys to success >> as a leader >> as a leader has a new brand of leaders. >> I would say, You know, this lot goes into, I'm sure you need to know engineering and all the strategic aspect of your job. But the core aspect I feel, is as a leader, my success depends on the quality of relationships I'm building with my team and members that I work with. So that goes into the people aspect, the people connection that goes into it, >> J p. >> Absolutely People are are a big portion of the story. I also feel understanding the problem and driving for results. You know, it's not just about building something. It's about building for a purpose. What is it that you're you're tryingto accomplish and continuing to find that? And working with the teams is so critical for success, especially in a fast moving in Christine. >> Yeah, I agree. It is all about the people, and I think old and new. This hasn't changed. People need to feel like they belong and they're being appreciated, and they're being heard >> scaler. Glass door Copa software. You guys do a great work. Thanks for sharing the engineering inputs, Thio. Leading successful companies. >> Thank you for >> your leadership. Thank you. >> Thank you so much. >> I'm shot for the Q. Thanks for watching. >> Well.

>> Live from Las Vegas. It's the Cube covering Adobe Summit twenty nineteen brought to you by extension for interactive. >> Hey, welcome back it when Cube live coverage here in Las Vegas are doubly. Summit twenty nineteen. I'm John Murray with Jeffrey, my coz this week. Two days of wall to wall coverage. Our next guest is Glenn Hartman. North America lied for a censure Interactive. Thanks for joining us. Hey, thanks for having me. Great beer. So you guys are doing some great stuff around the creativity, peace, doing great customer experience. Implement taste. We have a great walk through from a lot of the folks from your organization. You're designing up ideas and products, delivering them and then operating them. Nice model. Yeah, thanks. Is that your business model that has network, What century? Interactives business model. I mean center and >> really about one thing. It's about creating, delivering and running the best experiences on the planet. We help our clients do that for their own customers. And when >> we talk about experience, a lot of people have different definitions for that, especially at the conference here. It's not necessarily an experience of a website or a mobile app or u X is people use it. It's really anyway, a brand engages with a customer. It's not just marketing. Either it could be sales or customer service loyalty. Anything anyway. A brand promise can be delivered. Teo to customers. One of things that I've noticed with you guys is that it's a talk track and thought leaders around a new creative and new creativity. And Toby honestly with software that they haven't now the cloud you're seeing in the marketplace. We saw this at Sundance two years ago. A new kind of creative is, um, organically coming into the marketplace with more channels to direct to consumer, whether it be to be or be to see you and now have new kinds of mechanisms to take product, whether it's APS or content or movies, You start to see this democratization really starting to happen. How is that changing? How you guys helped us is because now they now have new capability. They can tell their story in a different way. They have access to new kinds of channels that weren't there before. How is that changing the business, in your opinion, die in a profound way? So I mean, everybody knows that marking is inextricably linked >> to technology and data. Everybody knows that. But when >> we are thinking about the new, creative and own ways that you can tell stories and create experiences. We look at experience very differently. I mentioned before that it was all about all the different touch points in the ways people interact with the brand. But when we look at experience, we call it the Big E. And the biggie actually stands for empathy. And it's understanding how to define what a brand experience means to that customer and defining success in terms of that customer. And you know, Jeff and John, you guys air not to find by your data set or what you bought last week. You could be very different types of people in different situations and understanding ways to empathize with you in the moment and having experiences change in the moment and having creative play, a part of that and data play. A part of that is the big hot. It's a new way of looking at things, and the last part of that, too. And the big is about emotion. So when you have a big brand that has some emotional connection, you know you love this brand for an automotive or you love this hotel chain or there's some brand a connection you have. How do you have that connection flow through every touch? Point and data and technology can enable that. But it's really empathy and emotion. That's the driver. How do you get empathy and creativity to work together? Because you now have an accelerant with data you mentioned getting to know people's empathizing with them in the moment it's contextual. I could be having a great day or a bad day or driving my kids to school of whatever's going on with me. It certainly there might be some data out. How do you get the creativity and the empathy to work together in your mind? You see that appointment? That's the nice parties. More than ever, we have different data sets that can help us do that. Just give you a couple of examples. Um, instead of understanding how to market >> to someone so they'LL buy the next product on basing. That may be on their demographic, maybe basing it on their preferences. You've hear all these terms and marketing for years, and you can understand what they bought. >> Instead of understanding that, why don't we try and look and use data which you could easily do today to understand why they bought something so it could be something as simple as like a I don't know, Cpg example. Maybe have shampoo and you could say, Well, they bought these kinds of things before, So maybe they'LL buy that champion. But if they know that, you know, maybe Jeff is equal friendly are John. Maybe you're more into things that maybe you buy that shampoo because you care about animals and they know they don't test them on animals. Or maybe it's something more about experience that that particular shampoo won't make your daughter cry when you ship your her hair. And it helps that experience that that's the reason why it actually helps me. You're empathizing in the moment with something that is meaningful that you care >> about. It's not about a better deal or >> better price or some kind of feature. It's something actually about you more meaningful, much very meaningful interaction. Data set is that because there's no data before, is it more? There's more signals, potentially to get exposed to that, because that's a hard data points to get. I mean, to find the why is a holistic kind of perspective. It's true, but I mean, I think it's more of a mind set. The date is there, but the mind set has been different. Over time, people were looking to technology every buzz word in the world use big data and personalization. Aye, aye. And then now it's a I and machine learning and like, Well, that's great. And they're all wonderful enablers, as I said, but it has to be driven by empathy first. So it all starts. >> I mean, we've been saying this forever customer, centrist city and a customer >> concerts. But really, I mean, for real. If you start to use those data sets, aunt have the mindset has to be a c M. O. R. A brand manager is someone who actually it's advocating for the customer, and they're willing to say, No, I don't need big data. I don't need all the data. I need this gold nugget part so I can speak to John. >> It's interesting plate, as you say, the emotional part of the biggie. Also, I think it is the old Coke commercial, right raw one world together, and we all cry and there's some great McDonald's commercials, right when you talk about you think beyond that to the to the empathy. I can't help but think of kind of the whole purpose. Purpose driven, mission driven companies. You know, kids coming out of college want to work for mission driven, cos we heard it over and over. And the key notes, you know, we're not a product company, not even really a service company. But we're committed to two, an ideal to the mission. Beep. Be partners with us, be our customer. Let's have a relationship that goes so much deeper and longer than any particular transaction is that kind of that tied it, that that is a part of it? >> Absolutely. Now, the interesting thing of what you said is that people are >> tied to a purpose and maybe something that's meaningful in a broad sense, absolutely. And that's a wonderful place to start. And you can start to align products and services in that way, >> the way he talked about, like, shampoo and, you know, animal testing, right? Well, >> it's a good one, but the next one is really getting a little bit Mohr down to you. So I think all that is great, but really understand what you need in the moment, because what happens is it. Some of those things may change if you are shopping at a grocery store every >> Saturday for your family and you're used to doing down your attitude. There might be different then when >> you're shopping, when your kid is sick and you got pulled out of work and you got to get there to get the prescription, you're into speed and your stress in the moment they're versus. Maybe >> on Saturday you're like all try some new coupons and try some new things and go by. The little tasting >> station is actually behaviors that you want to understand in the moment. That is a big part of that as well. But the key thing to hear is, let's think of this when you deal with empathy. It's not just getting to know all those things. Even if it gets to that level, it's actually changing the way marketers think about talking to communicating and relating to customers even the language that they use. I mean, think of it >> today. I mean, >> still, people use marketers are their marketing to people. It's, uh, that's acquire customers. Let's convert wind developers over good. We don't win their helpers over. And what was the last time you guys were real excited about getting converted? Okay, it's not a fun experience, right? So if you even changed, I might send you say, Let's market with someone or let's let's help them. You actually create experiences that are useful and helpful not about conversion and not a business metric. But success is defined by the customer. How are you guys playing this? Because this is really kind of ties on multiple threads. I mean, the whole nother community angle to people belong to communities in context to their life. And they engage. And when they engage his emotional connection to a group of this and some cohorts is the worker. Thank you. Okay, groups. But they're friends and colleagues, or whatever could be you guys were. The point is, with customers, take us through a use case day in the life of empathy, deployed into how you guys do business with the big Branson and one of the success. How do you make it happen? What's the engagement look like? How does someone do this? So they just wake up one morning, say Okay, I'm gonna have more empathy. They also call you guys up. What happens? Like what? Take us through What? Certain evidence was made in the slide. I could give you >> a little bit of it. An example of how stars we've been talking a little bit more dramatically about sick kids and testing on pets and animals and things like that. Not testing the pets. Can you imagine? I'd really be >> horrible. But single graphic of the users individual personal things is hard, right? So? Well, I mean, the whole point of this is that when you really get into the mechanics of how this works, I'll give you an >> example. It's a little bit less dramatic. OK, so it's a telecommunications company. Telco company. That's selling. You guys know what? Triple play? Yeah. Okay, So you have It's >> a cable and a phone, right? All it's it's like a commodity product writers. There's no emotional thing necessarily. But in that game, if you can just optimize certain parts of the journey, you can make a big difference, right so way got a benign request from a marketer. Teo say, Listen, we do a lot of paid search. Can you help us with this one product? Just if you move it even like one percent, it would be significant to the company. But when? So okay, we'LL do that, >> and it worked out. We go in and help them do their >> search. But because we're thinking about experience in a broader sense for so well, let's let's do it more. Let's make them be able to transact or engage in multiple ways. Well, you could. You could sign up for the service to email. Or maybe there's click to call or click to chat. Or you could even walk into a branch and do it there. Maybe through the call centre, right? It's what's all that's working together on the channel, though fun words you want easy. You're leveraging >> different technologies to do it and people, >> so the way this worked was you were coming in through search and then eventually a lot of them were converting in the call center. So it was all working. And you think that's great? Well, it wasn't great to the company at all. They were very upset. The people that we're buying the media, we're really bummed because they couldn't get the attribution of the credit for the thing was in the call center. So they came over the great idea. They said, OK, take the phone number off and take the the click to call off and will force the >> customer to convert in. Our channel, of >> course, is a brilliant company with great people and rational thinking prevailed and they didn't do that. But they said, Well, what do we do? I said, Well, you're going to eat and multi attribution model to be able to help you do that, Okay, but that's not enough because you also need a new sales incentive and commission structure inside the call center because those people are getting pit on that. But since it's such a low commodity product, that's not gonna work to change. That's that's a new sales kind of thing, then you wait. They can't talk for another three seconds to that person because you'LL bring the margins on. You got to get him back. All the turtleneck just screwed up. That's right. So there's a new business process is now a new operating model whose skills to get him back into the general. So all of a sudden it's benign. Request from a marketing team taken, you optimize my paint search becomes new business transformation. Okay, now, because that brand manager had the guts to say I'm going to advocate for this customer. This customer wants to come in through this channel. They want to convert over here, and we're gonna actually change the operating model, the sales structure to call the sales lead. I had to call the CFO on the CEO, and we're gonna make this happen, Gonna change the way we do business on behalf of that customer. That is weight world, I could tell you we see this all the time and marketers all the time that there's so married to their website analytics funnel that that's all about who gets credit coded earls and the customer experience is a brutal. It's like I'm not here on other sites are all over the place. I don't really need to go the site every day, right? Somebody only go there when Otto and the thing we were talking about before. If you're grocery shopping >> and Europe's have set on Tuesday and you want to get off >> for your kid at versus the nice leisurely thing we talked about on the weekend, there's a whole nother set of outcomes in Cape Yas you have to deal with. If you went into that supermarket on Tuesday and they figured out a way to get you in and out fast and just get those two or three autumns, you need it for your kid. That's a failed trip. According to the grocery industry. You need to be in there longer they want, so you stay in the back. That's right. Totally. That breaks the whole model, but it's wonderful for you. You'LL shop there forever because of that experience, what you're getting at the Morrises air, changing the business models of cos that's the bottom line. You're at the center. That could be a driver for the transformation. That's it. Empathy. Is the driver Absolutely no. You need to have the emotional connection to all that stuff to help also internally see emos. I don't need to just be relevant and customers that need to be relevant to the enterprise. They need to be relevant to the CEO, Doc in seconds and hear the screaming and kicking and screaming right now. Glenn, that's great. But man, that's a heavy lift way could do it. How do you How do you get it? Because now I can see a cultural reaction. The antibodies will come out and attack that notion because it's scary because now, like, whoa, yeah, well, I mean, it is hard, but the good news is, is that we see, even at this conference, and a lot of our clients are coming over to do that this incremental ways to get there. But I'll make it simple. So the advantages are we said this new technology, new data that allow you to do some of this stuff right? That's great. And you can see a lot of them consolidating, right? A lot of the stacks all now have content and analytics and commerce and all that, and in this nice ways that they come together and that consolidation can help, and there's other ones that can handle different data sets, and that helps to his automation. And but the thing is that what people miss is one of the ways to accelerate this is add a human centered approach to how you actually create the experience internally. And what I mean is, it's not enough to consolidate the data and figure out that Gold nugget and not enough to do with technology have to do with humans. It's a human centered approach, so we're bringing in integrated teams of humans that are pulling all the stuff together. It's someone who understands strategy. Maybe someone understands creative when it hit me in the club, basically their prime in the pump getting it. But they will sit together. They sent to get the analytics. People sit next to the creative people. It's in next you people. They work on it as they designed the experience. You don't do a strategy project and then do a A road map and then do an R P for technology enabled Waterfall does not work, but it's beyond even waterfall versus algebra. This is actually taking humans and consolidate that thinking New skill sets at the center in like an incubator way to do pilots to do prototyping to do things. If you want to create that new experience that we're talking about in any of these cases, you gotta hand CMO some kind of thing that can bring to the team and say, Look, here's an app that would enable this or he has a pilot We could try without boiling the ocean toe, actually create an experience that would move the needle or whatever. Lame corporate analogy. Just make more money and get some decent results in Get a beachhead, just small eatery through it. Glenn. Great Insights. This is a great time. We'd love to get you back on the Cuban girl down, and it's kind of design thinking, combined with execution on the front lines with customers. Center the value proposition. Great conversation before we and just give a quick plug for the business. What's going on with a sensor Interactive? How's the business going? What are your goals? How many people are working there? What's the geography is looked like? Give us enough. Thanks for asking So essential Interactive is enjoying its third year as being listed by at H magazine, is the largest digital agency in the world on the fastest growing Wei have coverage and a truly integrated global delivery model that hits every part of the of every market. And we're so excited. Tio have this growth because it's a way to show that the market is truly interested and being experienced lead and the way we're defining experience. We're seeing more and more clients moving from some of these incremental changes to really >> try to put the customer at the center of what they're doing. And, you know, X Ensure Interactive believes in this model it is. It's very much in some ways way. Call it a new kind of provider, like an experience agency for lack of a better term. TTO help companies drive that transformation, and it's >> done with people and technology, and we're been on a tear recently. Most are growth is organic, but we also do lots and lots of acquisitions to make these capabilities come together. All the creativity and the design and the strategy and the techniques and the run of it is all in one integrated team, and that is very, very helpful when you're trying to do some of the things we've been talking about and you're you guys. I think I'm the right way. This customer wave is really, really because with digital customers air in charge, they control their data. They're now going to shift is happening. We're starting to see some visibility into it. It was going to impact the economics process and business models, so I think it's just beginning. Congratulations really is thanks. And we're so excited because some of the >> client successes it's truly transformational somethings. You got it. Carnival or Marriott or or Subway. I >> mean, it's a whole different >> kind of way of looking at experience, and it's >> really helping people. It's not just for its good for the business, but we're really changing people's lives and helping have experiences be meaningful. It's been wonderful and fun for us. Glenn, Thanks so much for sharing this insights here in the Cube. Hey, thanks for going the data Here live adobe summat. Twenty nineteen, Jumper, jefe Rick, Stay tuned for more coverage after this short break

>> Oh, from our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley. Palo ALTO, California.  This is a Cube Conversation. >> Hello Everyone. Welcome to this special cube conversation. I'm Childfree, host of The Cube, cofounder of Silicon Angle Media Inc and the Cube. We're here with Andy Cunningham, who is the president and founder of Cunning in collective and also the author of the book. Get to ah ha! Bestseller on line four categories on Amazon E book. Great book. I recommend all Andy. Welcome to the Cube. Great to see you. >> Hey, it's great to be here. Good to see you. You're a thought >> leader. Just what you've been. You've seen many ways of innovation. You've done so much in your career. >> Big, minimal experience. And >> we were all old here. We've no ageism issues here. It's silken angle, but But you've done so much on DH communications and PR. PR is part of communications. You've you've seen it all. You've done it all. And now you're helping cos I've got a great book out, which I recommend everyone should get getting toe really kind of breaks down thirty five years of experience into one book. That you had a talk about the book on your firm for stuff about Connie and collected quick pleasure. >> So Cunningham  >> Collective is a small marketing consultancy that focuses on positioning, which in my opinion, is the epicenter of marketing. If you dont position yourself well for success, you're never going to achieve success. So the >> book is >> about a framework for figuring out how to position yourself. And it's a framework I developed probably around seventeen years ago. But I've been using it over the last seventy years with clients, and I find that it's super successful, especially with technology companies, and because it's an actual step by step sort of framework. So the book tells you how to do it. And then there were six case studies at the back of the book that >> show >> Positioning in action. >> I want to get a book at some specific questions on the positioning, but I want to get your take on because you've seen many waves around PR public relations, which is corporate communications and communications in general. Over the years, where are we now? Because you're seeing you know, the media business change face. What's on the front page? Of all the news these days around how they sucked all the data in and fake news. All these things are happening Cos still need to get the word out. You know, New Channel's new realities take us through how you see the evolution of what the old way is in the new way are of communications. >> So PR was >> actually invented by a guy in the nineteen twenties named Eddie Bernays. And Eddie Bernays actually figured out that if you created a stunt like situation, you could get the journalist to cover it. He was very strategic about it. It sounds, sounds kind of, you know, loopy. But he was very strategic about it, and he actually invented the concept that he actually went to the phrase public relations, and he was modeling it after propaganda. That was the that was where he came up with that phrase. So it was like that for quite a long time until we got into an era of what I would call influence her marketing, you know, now we call it influencer marketing. But back in the you know when when there was a lot of investigative journalism going on, it was really just about who's who are the influencers that you need to influence in order to get them to say what you want them to say about your company or your product. So that was what my old boss, Regis McKenna called that, he said. She said, Journalism, if you're going to launch something into the marketplace, you need to get all the he said. And the she says to say what you want them to say before you actually say it yourself, because the journalists are gonna go back to those people and they're going to corroborate your story or not. So the idea was influenced the influencers. And then you can get your story that lasted for about probably thirty years, that era. Now we're in an era, then I call it's the era of content, marketing. And really, what happens today is you almost don't even need the journalists at all, because first of all, there aren't very many of them left. And second of all, there are so many channels available to ourselves as as communicators that if you build a digital footprint that has a great story and it that is compelling and consistent, and you keep saying the same key messages over and over again, you can build yourself a digital footprint that actually becomes starts to take over the word of mouth that we talked about earlier because we're the mouth is really what it's all about. But word of mouth hap and today because from results from a giant digital footprint about your story. >> I remember back in business school back in the day in the nineties when I got my MBA advertising class would break down. You need to copy strategy because, you know, reach media, print ads and radio really was the old school media and frequency was was a certain first radio print. You have time to read it so all the specs get laid out. Reaches reach, Right? So you broadcast cable or TV? The impression >> yeah, kind of digital brings >> everything kind of weaves it all together, but you mentioned frequency. Why is frequencies so important? Because is that because of the targeting, is that because there's not a lot of reaches more specialized? >> Well, it's still it's still the same reason. >> So there's a thing called the marketing rule of seven, and that means that a person needs to hear your message seven times before it. It seeps into their brain, and they actually either decide to do something about it or not do something about it. But that's what creates awareness seven times. So that still is true today as it was before. But now it's so much easier because now you don't have to buy ads to do it. You don't even have to pay a PR person to do it. You just fill your own social channels, your own website, your own blog's your own vlogs, your own video. You just fill up your own personal channels, however many there that you have with your own story. And then once it's out there as a digital footprint, then it's time to start talking to the journalism community, which is smaller than it used to be. But those who are left are pretty good. The Washington Post is pretty good. The New York Times is pretty good. So you call up the guy at The New York Times and you pitched him on your story, and instead of trying to spend a bunch of time pitching him, you just refer him back to someone of your channels. He Googles that he gets online, and he sees, Oh, my God, there's a giant story here because you've built the story. So you have so much more controlled today. We have so much more control over our stories. >> So the way to pitch, then based on what you're saying is to have the raw materials out there so they can make their story >> exactly. Put it together. We put it >> out there, and then the journalists just find it. It's like an Easter egg hunt. Look under that tree >> there. Well, here's a clip >> of an expert that's talking about something you might be interested in. This is the new model. Have the assets. Well, actually, we we love that came in what we do. But I want to get that to the book and the years of experience you have on this. But before we do that, I got to ask you when I was watching the Steve Jobs movie. You know, you're on the stage and you're part of that. >> You must get, well, an actress actress once you get your >> role. You were very instrumental, hectic days, people who know Steve and know the apple days. What >> did you >> learn from that? That's in the book from the Apple days. And how does and what has changed from the apple days. Now is there some things that are similar to the world's changed. But what are some of the key those key Learnings that that those magical moments. >> So my biggest >> key learning was ice. We spent about six months? Was Steve working on the messaging for the launch of the Macintosh, and we got it down to a Siri's of what I would I now call means that were just very, very. The computer for the rest of us was one of them, right? Everybody remembers that one small footprint was another one nobody remembers. Any more easy to use was another one. There was a Siri's of these things to explain the Macintosh. We then went through a process of educating one hundred journalists about about that and pumping them with those key messages at every juncture. Then we go to De Anza College and we did the big launch. We said those messages again and was a bunch of TV people around and everybody you know, everybody reported on it and I'm driving home in the car. After the show was over with, I turn on the radio and there's the messages that I had written, coming back at me over and over and again and change the station. Same thing over and over again. The Macintosh was launched today, and this is what everyone is saying. The same thing is, it was it gave me chills. It was like, Wow, this really works. And that lesson that I learned with Steve is the same lesson Eddie Bernays learned a hundred years ago. Its the same lesson Regis McKenna learned with influencing the influencers. And it's the same lesson people can learn today. You just you just get too. You get, too, ah ha! With a slightly different strategy. And today it's about building a big digital footprint before you ever talk to anybody. >> And I think this is key to the book of one of the things that you mentioned earlier. That's clearly in the book, and this is a lesson for the folks. Watching on and learn from this is that positioning is critical. Before the branding, the knee jerk reaction from most people. A new person Let's re branded system New Low goes out there. You're taking it a contrarian view on >> the sea >> or race on experience and success. Position first brand later or had second thoughts on that Wise wise is so important, specific successes you had. But what other reasons are important? >> Well, I got I learned this because >> the first part of my career I would I would get called in after somebody had already hired a branding firm and they re branded everything, Got a new new logo. New tagline, new color palette, all of this stuff and a few bits of copy that were really sexy and interesting. But they were finding it wasn't sticking. It wasn't making a difference in their in their sales, because, really, at the end of the day, we're all here to sell stuff, right? So I would come in and I would realize, Oh my God, you did all this first you didn't figure out your positioning strategy. Like what? Who are you in the market? And why do you matter? Those two questions are the two most important questions anybody can ask themselves. Is a market or a CEO? Who are you and why do you matter if you can't answer those questions? Doing a branding exercise is a waste of money. >> Talk about >> the conflict involved when you work for the client or when you have to get to this moment. This Ahamo sometimes is not a parent, sometimes is pretty clear. Sometimes you might think you're one, but you're really another. There's always maybe opinions about what, what people are in terms of a company internally amongst executives or the stakeholders. >> Yeah, how do you How do you figure it out? Is heroic >> golden rule or what's your What's your Tell them how to get to that moment of that self reflection >> is sure that sort of that's actually >> the key point of the book. It's it's based positioning. Really good positioning should be based on what your DNA as a company is, and the book tells you how to determine what is your DNA. But the the end of the day. They're three kinds of companies. There are product focus cos I happen to call them mechanics. There are customer focus, cos I call them mothers, and they're our concept, Focus Cos I call them missionaries. And interestingly, each of these types of companies do things entirely differently. They talk about different things and meetings. They hire different kinds of people. They train them differently. They measure success differently. They market themselves differently. There's actually, the DNA is reflected in there actions. So when I'm sitting around a workshop with a client, we have to determine Are they a mother? Are they a missionary or are there mechanic before we can actually figure out how to create marketing around them? So that's the biggest thing is there's some people over here. So we're a product company. These peoples, they know we're trying to change the world. And these people say, No, no, no, we're all about the customer and the discussion that you have around that is actually the where the ah ha moment comes When you decide okay, we really are a customer focus company doesn't mean the other two things go away. They just take a back seat to the marketing. So everybody has to agree that that's what they're going to move forward with. And that's what makes it. It's so much fun. It's like it's like doing and Myers Briggs test for a company. You know, everybody loves that, right? Oh, I'm in I n t j M e. And whatever the >> letters it was, I'm not that I'm really something else, >> but there's always confident. But >> you >> also mentioned the book that people can change, too. So you start out as something. Maybe a missionary evolve based upon the business changed. Talk about that, >> Yeah. So let's talk about Apple >> for a second cause that's the company that definitely was a missionary, and missionaries exist to change behavior on a fundamental level. And that was what Steve Jobs was all about, right? So when >> he was >> running the company even before he was running it, but he was a big influence, or there he basically was a missionary company. He was trying to change behavior, and that's what the Macintosh was all about. But after he passed away, he left the assets of the company in the hands of Tim Cook, who, by the way, is an amazing, amazing caretaker of those assets. I mean, he's grown them. He's turned them into it, turned the company into one of the world's most valuable companies. But unfortunately, he's not a missionary, and what he has done is he has kind of tried to keep the missionary thing going. But he hasn't been successful doing that. So what's happened is the market is turning Apple into a product focus company, and the leadership is not steering the company that direction they are trailing, so it's happening to ample, in other words. So you're going to start to see Apple focus more on Warren product over the years, which they which they have been. But they're starting to have some product issues, and I think that's the result of them, not it's tearing the company directly into this, >> finding that DNA and get filling the young count or hiring people toe >> exactly. Exactly. >> Just on that same point. Amazon is a company that is doing this to the market. So Amazon started as a product company, and now they've steered their steering themselves purposefully into a customer focus company. And if you go online and check out their new mission statement, it's to be Earth's most customer centric company. And this is the reason Jeff Bezos bought Zappos a number of years ago Wasn't because Jeff couldn't figure out how to sell shoes online. Of course he could. It was because he was buying that customer centric culture, So he's purposefully steering the company into the customer direction so >> you can change your DNA, >> but it ain't easy. >> I've any Jesse. Many times become a good friend on the Cube as well. He's the word customer so many times we can see the frequency, but they've been talking customer for a long time. So you say they were product company >> with his Amazon. Amazon lands >> on Web services. The missionary and a product focus because I think product would be. I think it's safe once >> I think early, early, early >> on meaning they started this customer transition probably five, six years ago, so but they were very much early on a product company, I think in bases his head. They were actually a missionary. But he never he never would go out and say that. What did he say about Amazon? Were online bookseller and oh, by the way, books are going so well now we're going to do music, and now we're going to, you know. And then >> it's product. >> It took about its product. It was product product product until he decided that he was going to eat the universe one bite at a time. And so, in order to be successful with that, he has to have a customer he feels he has to have customer relationships that are going to stick with him over the course of a lifetime. >> So you know a little about the Cube. What's the Cube? What are we? >> I think you're a missionary. I mean, you're trying to change >> behavior on a fundamental level, and, you know it's, um it's amazing what you've done. You know, we had this great conversation beforehand, and I learned about all the new things you're working on, and it's groundbreaking, groundbreaking stuff. >> Okay, Final question on the book is the funniest. Our craziest reaction you've had to it, either someone emailing You owe our ceremonial because it's pretty inspiring. You break it down free simply. But it's really a core fundamental practice. And I've read a lot of marketing books in my day. A lot of you know, these office come out. Process improvement. This is cuts to the chase. It's >> really thank you. Thank you. What's the big waves >> you heard or crazy? >> Well, I this is This is the >> most recent thing I can think of. I I ended up becoming number number one on Amazon's e book thing and four categories, just like two weeks ago, and I got Mohr social media coverage on that than >> anything else in my entire life with the most amazing >> thing that I've ever seen in all these. Congratulations. And, you >> know, they're they're categories. >> Not like this. Not like your New York Times best seller. It's like you're the best multi marketing, you know, book here, The best small business marketing book, those kinds of things. And it just was just blew up. It went viral. >> That's how it was all online. What made you write the book was That was the moment. When was the ah ha moment for you saying, You know what? I got to put the book together. Was it something that you had in mind? That you get this data collecting of institutional knowledge of the trade? When was the ah, ha moment for you to write the book? >> Well, I this framework that I developed here has been working for me really successfully for, like, seventeen years. And I just decided that wow, other people should know how to do this. You know, because when we charge when we hired when that when we hire when someone hires us, it's like one hundred fifty thousand dollars worth of worth of work to do what we do, they could do it for twenty two ninety nine or whatever the heck >> this thing costs these days. And you could occasionally you get a book out there to get an audio book as well. So s so I really wanted >> to spread the word about this framework in this methodology, cause I really believe that my, my inside my core of myself, that the epicentre of great marketing is positioning. And if you don't get that right, you will never succeed with any of the rest of it. So do >> the great folks. You have a great track record. I've seen personal your sex success of up close perambulations on that. Let's talk about cos now I want to get backto successful companies. He's a lot of conversation. I'd build a rocket ship. So you we live in Silicon Valley. There are rocket >> ships that there are, >> you know, go big or go home. Blitz Scaling his Reid, Hoffman would say, I endorse that one hundred percent think there's use cases clearly for blitz scaling. Other people have been throwing him under the bus saying that culture is not what we want and build a still stable business. And so the debate aside, there's two types of companies there's the Okay, I'm going to build this company. I might not know when they're when the growth's gonna be there. And then there's the big venture back category changer rocket ships. Can you talk about the success criteria in your mind of both companies around positioning approaches, things that you've seen in the past that work well, >> I think companies that understand who they are and why they matter are the ones that succeed. And it's also important that they have a good leader, a good, strong leader. But if you don't know who you are and why you matter, you can't build a new category. You can't even launch a new product. So I, >> you know, take a look at some of the companies that have done that. Well, Netflix has done that extremely well, right? Airbnb has done that extreme slack has done that really well. Microsoft is doing it really well again, right? They went through a downtime, and now you know their new CEO, Satya Nadella, is doing an unbelievable job with positioning. There's so much a product company, and he's not trying to make them into a customer. Companies trying to double down on the product so and Netflix is a is a missionary company there change behaviour on a fundamental >> of Microsoft's a great example because I think that's something into anything radical. In the product side, they looked at the tailwind of Cloud computing an A I and said, Let's throw the sails up there and let's let's get around behind it >> and grand source. >> And then they branded it. So they positioned themselves as a Claude company, and then they branded it. As as you're so >>On the tail winds concept of trends, Pat Gelsinger said that if you're not out in front of that next wave, you could be driftwood. Riding the waves are certainly a big part of jumping on a successful or tail wind some call it how important that have that positioning time to something that's trendy or something. >> Oh, that's a great question, because it's because the context in which you are actually putting something into the market is critical. So you have to really understand what are the waves that you want to ride and can ride. And don't try to be riding a wave that passed five years ago. Or that hasn't shown up yet. You might think there's a wave coming. That's the biggest danger of a lot of these high tech start ups is that they see a vision of something way down the line, and there's no way for them to ride today. And they launched their technology. But too early >> and to your point. If they don't have the positioning right, they won't be able to ride it. You >> know what they want. They won't be able to ride it. So if they if if they did a proper positioning exercise before that, they would realize that they're context in which they're doing this is not right for what they're saying. So have to pivot a little bit. These is where pivots come from, right? We have to pivot a little bit to make yourself relevant for the market today, and that's an important thing. >> Andy. Final question for the folks watching saying, I love the book. I'm gonna get it might have helped might need help and saying I need to call Andy and the team or figure it out. What are some of the tell signs that they're not getting it right or what? If some things when they need to call for help and howto people moved to the next level, some people might say, Hey, you know, we need help. We can't get concensus. The leader might not be strong enough to be a leadership transition. Could be a new wave that people have identified. Yeah. What? This is a tough challenge of self awareness. What is that? Some of the tell signs And how does >> > somebody actually make the change? It is a tough, and most CEOs are not into it enough of themselves to know to know those things. So what happens is they launch it and then they don't get traction. So the biggest reason why people call me is they're not getting traction. Now, the really the really smart ones do more analysis, like what you're talking about. Oh, there's something has changed in the context. So I better shift this or, you know, a competitors come up with something that sounds awful on awful lot like ours. Maybe we better get ahead of that. But that takes a really strategic CEO. And there are some of those out there, But not everyone is >> okay. So great book here. Getting toe, huh? Everyone great. It's a good thing I read. It. Came out the day. Volante. He's reading it. Thanks for coming out. Spend the time, John communications. Final word on the communications world. What's the message to folks out there? See, M O's out there and head of communications. What's the future look like for them? What should they do? Going forward to be successful? >> Well, the future of marketing is is really figuring out how to make word of mouth, you know, explode word of mouth, because that's why people buy things. You know, you told me I should check out this product or my book. He said, You told your friends I should check out the books, So he does. So it's all about word of mouth and starts with building a big digital footprint yourself and then going to the peak to the press side. >> Andy cutting him here in Palo Alto Studios. I'm John for with Keep conversations. Thanks for watching