>>Hey guys and girls, welcome back to Motor City, Lisa Martin here with John Furrier on the Cube's third day of coverage of Coon Cloud Native Con North America. John, we've had some great conversations over the last two and a half days. We've been talking about identity and security management as a critical need for enterprises within the cloud native space. We're gonna have another quick conversation >>On that. Yeah, we got a great segment coming up from someone who's been in the industry, a long time expert, running a great company. Now it's gonna be one of those pieces that fits into what we call super cloud. Others are calling cloud operating system. Some are calling just Cloud 2.0, 3.0. But there's definitely a major trend happening around how cloud is going Next generation. We've been covering it. So this segment should be >>Great. Let's unpack those trends. One of our alumni is back with us, O Rika Zi, co-founder and CEO of Aerio. Omri. Great to have you back on the >>Cube. Thank you. Great to be here. >>So identity move to the cloud, Access authorization did not talk to us about why you found it assertive, what you guys are doing and how you're flipping that script. >>Yeah, so back 15 years ago, I helped start Azure at Microsoft. You know, one of the first few folks that you know, really focused on enterprise services within the Azure family. And at the time I was working for the guy who ran all of Windows server and you know, active directory. He called it the linchpin workload for the Windows Server franchise, like big words. But what he meant was we had 95% market share and all of these new SAS applications like ServiceNow and you know, Workday and salesforce.com, they had to invent login and they had to invent access control. And so we were like, well, we're gonna lose it unless we figure out how to replace active directory. And that's how Azure Active Directory was born. And the first thing that we had to do as an industry was fix identity, right? Yeah. So, you know, we worked on things like oof Two and Open, Id Connect and SAML and Jot as an industry and now 15 years later, no one has to go build login if you don't want to, right? You have companies like Odd Zero and Okta and one login Ping ID that solve that problem solve single sign-on, on the web. But access Control hasn't really moved forward at all in the last 15 years. And so my co-founder and I who were both involved in the early beginnings of Azure Active directory, wanted to go back to that problem. And that problem is even bigger than identity and it's far from >>Solved. Yeah, this is huge. I think, you know, self-service has been a developer thing that's, everyone knows developer productivity, we've all experienced click sign in with your LinkedIn or Twitter or Google or Apple handle. So that's single sign on check. Now the security conversation kicks in. If you look at with this no perimeter and cloud, now you've got multi-cloud or super cloud on the horizon. You've got all kinds of opportunities to innovate on the security paradigm. I think this is kind of where I'm hearing the most conversation around access control as well as operationally eliminating a lot of potential problems. So there's one clean up the siloed or fragmented access and two streamlined for security. What's your reaction to that? Do you agree? And if not, where, where am I missing that? >>Yeah, absolutely. If you look at the life of an IT pro, you know, back in the two thousands they had, you know, l d or active directory, they add in one place to configure groups and they'd map users to groups. And groups typically corresponded to roles and business applications. And it was clunky, but life was pretty simple. And now they live in dozens or hundreds of different admin consoles. So misconfigurations are rampant and over provisioning is a real problem. If you look at zero trust and the principle of lease privilege, you know, all these applications have these course grained permissions. And so when you have a breach, and it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when you wanna limit the blast radius of you know what happened, and you can't do that unless you have fine grained access control. So all those, you know, all those reasons together are forcing us as an industry to come to terms with the fact that we really need to revisit access control and bring it to the age of cloud. >>You guys recently, just this week I saw the blog on Topaz. Congratulations. Thank you. Talk to us about what that is and some of the gaps that's gonna help sarto to fill for what's out there in the marketplace. >>Yeah, so right now there really isn't a way to go build fine grains policy based real time access control based on open source, right? We have the open policy agent, which is a great decision engine, but really optimized for infrastructure scenarios like Kubernetes admission control. And then on the other hand, you have this new, you know, generation of access control ideas. This model called relationship based access control that was popularized by Google Zanzibar system. So Zanzibar is how they do access control for Google Docs and Google Drive. If you've ever kind of looked at a Google Doc and you know you're a viewer or an owner or a commenter, Zanzibar is the system behind it. And so what we've done is we've married these two things together. We have a policy based system, OPPA based system, and at the same time we've brought together a directory, an embedded directory in Topaz that allows you to answer questions like, does this user have this permission on this object? And bringing it all together, making it open sources a real game changer from our perspective, real >>Game changer. That's good to hear. What are some of the key use cases that it's gonna help your customers address? >>So a lot of our customers really like the idea of policy based access management, but they don't know how to bring data to that decision engine. And so we basically have a, you know, a, a very opinionated way of how to model that data. So you import data out of your identity providers. So you connect us to Okta or oze or Azure, Azure Active directory. And so now you have the user data, you can define groups and then you can define, you know, your object hierarchy, your domain model. So let's say you have an applicant tracking system, you have nouns like job, you know, know job descriptions or candidates. And so you wanna model these things and you want to be able to say who has access to, you know, the candidates for this job, for example. Those are the kinds of rules that people can express really easily in Topaz and in assertive. >>What are some of the challenges that are happening right now that dissolve? What, what are you looking at to solve? Is it complexity, sprawl, logic problems? What's the main problem set you guys >>See? Yeah, so as organizations grow and they have more and more microservices, each one of these microservices does authorization differently. And so it's impossible to reason about the full surface area of, you know, permissions in your application. And more and more of these organizations are saying, You know what, we need a standard layer for this. So it's not just Google with Zanzibar, it's Intuit with Oddy, it's Carta with their own oddy system, it's Netflix, you know, it's Airbnb with heed. All of them are now talking about how they solve access control extracted into its own service to basically manage complexity and regain agility. The other thing is all about, you know, time to market and, and tco. >>So, so how do you work with those services? Do you replace them, you unify them? What is the approach that you're taking? >>So basically these organizations are saying, you know what? We want one access control service. We want all of our microservices to call that thing instead of having to roll out our own. And so we, you know, give you the guts for that service, right? Topaz is basically the way that you're gonna go implement an access control service without having to go build it the same way that you know, large companies like Airbnb or Google or, or a car to >>Have. What's the competition look like for you guys? I'm not really seeing a lot of competition out there. Are there competitors? Are there different approaches? What makes you different? >>Yeah, so I would say that, you know, the biggest competitor is roll your own. So a lot of these companies that find us, they say, We're sick and tired of investing 2, 3, 4 engineers, five engineers on this thing. You know, it's the gift that keeps on giving. We have to maintain this thing and so we can, we can use your solution at a fraction of the cost a, a fifth, a 10th of what it would cost us to maintain it locally. There are others like Sty for example, you know, they are in the space, but more in on the infrastructure side. So they solve the problem of Kubernetes submission control or things like that. So >>Rolling your own, there's a couple problems there. One is do they get all the corner cases who built a they still, it's a company. Exactly. It's heavy lifting, it's undifferentiated, you just gotta check the box. So probably will be not optimized. >>That's right. As Bezo says, only focus on the things that make your beer taste better. And access control is one of those things. It's part of your security, you know, posture, it's a critical thing to get right, but you know, I wanna work on access control, said no developer ever, right? So it's kind of like this boring, you know, like back office thing that you need to do. And so we give you the mechanisms to be able to build it securely and robustly. >>Do you have a, a customer story example that is one of your go-tos that really highlights how you're improving developer productivity? >>Yeah, so we have a couple of them actually. So there's the largest third party B2B marketplace in the us. Free retail. Instead of building their own, they actually brought in aer. And what they wanted to do with AER was be the authorization layer for both their externally facing applications as well as their internal apps. So basically every one of their applications now hooks up to AER to do authorization. They define users and groups and roles and permissions in one place and then every application can actually plug into that instead of having to roll out their own. >>I'd like to switch gears if you don't mind. I get first of all, great update on the company and progress. I'd like to get your thoughts on the cloud computing market. Obviously you were your legendary position, Azure, I mean look at the, look at the progress over the past few years. Just been spectacular from Microsoft and you set the table there. Amazon web service is still, you know, thundering away even though earnings came out, the market's kind of soft still. You know, you see the cloud hyperscalers just continuing to differentiate from software to chips. Yep. Across the board. So the hyperscalers kicking ass taking names, doing great Microsoft right up there. What's the future? Cuz you now have the conversation where, okay, we're calling it super cloud, somebody calling multi-cloud, somebody calling it distributed computing, whatever you wanna call it. The old is now new again, it just looks different as cloud becomes now the next computer industry, >>You got an operating system, you got applications, you got hardware, I mean it's all kind of playing out just on a massive global scale, but you got regions, you got all kinds of connected systems edge. What's your vision on how this plays out? Because things are starting to fall into place. Web assembly to me just points to, you know, app servers are coming back, middleware, Kubernetes containers, VMs are gonna still be there. So you got the progression. What's your, what's your take on this? How would you share, share your thoughts to a friend or the industry, the audience? So what's going on? What's, what's happening right now? What's, what's going on? >>Yeah, it's funny because you know, I remember doing this quite a few years ago with you probably in, you know, 2015 and we were talking about, back then we called it hybrid cloud, right? And it was a vision, but it is actually what's going on. It just took longer for it to get here, right? So back then, you know, the big debate was public cloud or private cloud and you know, back when we were, you know, talking about these ideas, you know, we said, well you know, some applications will always stay on-prem and some applications will move to the cloud. I was just talking to a big bank and they basically said, look, our stated objective now is to move everything we can to the public cloud and we still have a large private cloud investment that will never go away. And so now we have essentially this big operating system that can, you know, abstract all of this stuff. So we have developer platforms that can, you know, sit on top of all these different pieces of infrastructure and you know, kind of based on policy decide where these applications are gonna be scheduled. So, you know, the >>Operating schedule shows like an operating system function. >>Exactly. I mean like we now, we used to have schedulers for one CPU or you know, one box, then we had schedulers for, you know, kind of like a whole cluster and now we have schedulers across the world. >>Yeah. My final question before we kind of get run outta time is what's your thoughts on web assembly? Cuz that's getting a lot of hype here again to kind of look at this next evolution again that's lighter weight kind of feels like an app server kind of direction. What's your, what's your, it's hyped up now, what's your take on that? >>Yeah, it's interesting. I mean back, you know, what's, what's old is new again, right? So, you know, I remember back in the late nineties we got really excited about, you know, JVMs and you know, this notion of right once run anywhere and yeah, you know, I would say that web assembly provides a pretty exciting, you know, window into that where you can take the, you know, sandboxing technology from the JavaScript world, from the browser essentially. And you can, you know, compile an application down to web assembly and have it real, really truly portable. So, you know, we see for example, policies in our world, you know, with opa, one of the hottest things is to take these policies and can compile them to web assemblies so you can actually execute them at the edge, you know, wherever it is that you have a web assembly runtime. >>And so, you know, I was just talking to Scott over at Docker and you know, they're excited about kind of bringing Docker packaging, OCI packaging to web assemblies. So we're gonna see a convergence of all these technologies right now. They're kind of each, each of our, each of them are in a silo, but you know, like we'll see a lot of the patterns, like for example, OCI is gonna become the packaging format for web assemblies as it is becoming the packaging format for policies. So we did the same thing. We basically said, you know what, we want these policies to be packaged as OCI assembly so that you can sign them with cosign and bring the entire ecosystem of tools to bear on OCI packages. So convergence is I think what >>We're, and love, I love your attitude too because it's the open source community and the developers who are actually voting on the quote defacto standard. Yes. You know, if it doesn't work, right, know people know about it. Exactly. It's actually a great new production system. >>So great momentum going on to the press released earlier this week, clearly filling the gaps there that, that you and your, your co-founder saw a long time ago. What's next for the assertive business? Are you hiring? What's going on there? >>Yeah, we are really excited about launching commercially at the end of this year. So one of the things that we were, we wanted to do that we had a promise around and we delivered on our promise was open sourcing our edge authorizer. That was a huge thing for us. And we've now completed, you know, pretty much all the big pieces for AER and now it's time to commercially launch launch. We already have customers in production, you know, design partners, and you know, next year is gonna be the year to really drive commercialization. >>All right. We will be watching this space ery. Thank you so much for joining John and me on the keep. Great to have you back on the program. >>Thank you so much. It was a pleasure. >>Our pleasure as well For our guest and John Furrier, I'm Lisa Martin, you're watching The Cube Live. Michelle floor of Con Cloud Native Con 22. This is day three of our coverage. We will be back with more coverage after a short break. See that.

>>Hey, welcome back everyone to cube Cod's coverage and cloud native con the I'm John for your husband, David Nicholson cube analyst, cloud analyst. Co-host you got two great guests, KIPP alumni, Jerry Chen needs no introduction partner at Greylock ventures have been on the case many times, almost like an analyst chair. It's great to see you. I got guest analyst and Martin mal who's the CEO co-founder of Chronosphere just closed a whopping $200 million series C round businesses. Booming. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on. Thank you. Hey, first of all, congratulations on the business translations, who would have known that observability and distributed tracing would be a big deal. Jerry, you predicted that in 2013, >>I think we predicted jointly cloud was going to be a big deal with 2013, right? And I think the rise of cloud creates all these markets behind it, right. This, you know, I always say you got to ride a wave bigger than you. And, uh, and so this ride on cloud and scale is the macro wave and, you know, Marty and Robin cryosphere, they're just drafted behind that wave, bigger scale, high cardinality, more data, more apps. I mean, that's, that's where the fuck. >>Yeah. Martin, all kidding aside. You know, we joke about this because we've had conversations where the philosophy of you pick the trend is your friend that you know, is going to be happening. So you can kind of see the big waves coming, but you got to stay true to it. And one of the things that we talk about is what's the next Amazon impact gonna look like? And we were watching the rise of Amazon. You go, if this continues a new way to do things is going to be upon us. Okay, you've got dev ops now, cloud native, but observability became really a key part of that. It's like almost the, I call it the network management in the cloud. It's like in a new way, you guys have been very successful. There's a lot of solutions out there. What's different. >>Yeah. I'd say for Kearney sphere, there's really three big differences. The first thing is that we're a platform. So we're still an observability platform. And by that, I mean, we solved the problem end to end. If thinking about observability and monitoring, you want to know when something's wrong, you want to be able to see how bad it is. And then you want to able to figure out what the root cause is. Often. There are solutions that do a part of that, that that problem might solve a part of the problem really well for a platform that does the whole thing. And 10 that's that's really the first thing. Second thing is we're really built for not just the cloud, but cloud native environments. So a microservices architecture on container-based infrastructure. And that is something that, uh, we, we have saw coming maybe 20 17, 20 18, but luckily for us, we were already solving this problem at Uber. That's where myself, my co-founder were back in 20 14, 20 15. So we already had the sort of perfect technology to solve this problem ahead of where the, the trend was going in the industry and therefore a purpose-built solution for this type of environment, a lot more effective than a lot of the existing. >>It's interesting, Jerry, you know, the view investing companies that have their problem, that they have to solve themselves as the new thing, versus someone says, Hey, there's a market. Let's build a solution for something. I don't really know. Well, that's kind of what's going on here. Right? It's >>That's why we love founders. Like Martin Marna, rod that come out with these hyperscale comes Uber's like we say, they've seen the future. You know, like there were Uber, they looked at the existing solutions out there trying to scale Promethease or you know, data dogs and the vendors. And it didn't work. It fell over, was too expensive. And so Martin Rob saw solid future. Like, this is where the world's going. We're going to solve it. They built MP3. It became cryosphere. And um, so I don't take any credit for that. You know, I just look fine folks that can see the future. >>Yeah. But they were solving their problem. No one else had anything. There's no general purpose software that managed servers you could buy, you guys were cutting your teeth into solving the pain. You had Uber. When did you guys figure out like, oh, well this is pretty big. >>Uh, probably about 20 17, 20 18 with a rise in popularity of Kubernetes. That's when we knew, oh wait, the whole world is shifting to this. It's not, no one could really it to just goober and the big tech giants of the world. And that's when we really knew, okay. The whole, the whole whole world is shifting here. And again, it's, it's sheer blind luck that we already had the ideal solution for this particular environment. It wasn't planned it. Wasn't what we were planning for back then. But, um, yeah. Get everything. >>It makes a lot of difference. When you walk into a customer and say, we had this problem, I can empathize with you. Not just say we've got solved. Exactly. Jerry, how do they compete in the cloud? We always talk about how Amazon and Azure want to eat up anything that they see that might, you know, something on AWS. Um, this castle in the cloud opportunity here. Okay. >>In the cloud. I mean, you know, we talked last time about how to fight the big three, uh, Amazon Azure and, uh, and Google. And I think for sure they have basic offerings, right. You know, Google Stackdriver years ago, they've done basically for Pete's offerings, basic modern offerings. I think you have like basic, simple needs. It's a great way to get started, but customers don't want kind of a piecemeal solution all the time. They want a full product. Like Datadog shows a better user experience, but full product is going to, you know, the better mousetrap the world will beat a path to your door. So first you can build a better product versus these point solutions. Number two is at some scale and some level complexity, those guys can handle like the demanding users that current affairs handling right now, right? The door dash, the world. >>And finally don't want the Fox guarding the hen house. You know, you don't want to say like Amazon monitoring, you can't depend on Amazon service monitoring your Amazon apps or Google service monitor your Google apps, having something that is independent and multi-cloud, that can dual things, Marta said, you know, see a triage, fixed your issues is kind of what you want. And, um, that's where the market's skilling. So I do believe that cloud guys will have an offering the space, but in our castle and cloud research, we saw that, yeah, there's a plenty of startups being funded. There's plenty of opportunity. And that the scoreboard between Splunk Datadog and all these other companies, that there's a huge amount of market and value to be created in this piece. So, >>So with, at, at the time, when you, you know, uh, uh, necessity is the mother of invention, you're an Uber, you have a practical problem to solve and use you look around you and you see that you're not the only entity out there that has this problem. Where are we in that wave? So not everyone is at, cloud-scale not everyone has adopted completely Kubernetes and cloud native for everything. Are we just at the beginning of this wave? How far from the >>Beach are we, we think we're just at the beginning of this wave right now. Um, and if you think about most enterprises today, they're still using on, and they're not even in perhaps in the cloud at all right. Are you still using perhaps APM and solutions, uh, on premise? So, um, if you look at that wave, we're just at the beginning of it. But when, but when we talked to a lot of these companies and you ask them for their three year vision, Kubernetes is a huge piece of that because everyone wants to be multi-cloud everyone to be hybrid eventually. And that's going to be the enabler of that. So, uh, we're just in the beginning now, but it seems like an inevitable wave that is coming. >>So obviously people evaluated that exactly the way you're evaluating that. Right. Thus the funding, right. Because no one makes that kind of investment without thinking that there is a multiplier on that over time. So that's pretty, that's a pretty exciting place. >>Yeah. I think to your point, a lot of companies are running into that situation right now, and they're looking at existing solutions there for us. It was necessity because there wasn't anything out there now that there is a lot of companies are not using their sort of precious engineering resources to build their own there. They would prefer to buy a solution because this is something that we can offer to all the companies. And it's not necessarily a business differentiating technology for the businesses themselves >>Distributed tracing in that really platform. That's the news. Um, and you mentioned you've got this, a good bid. You do some good business. Is scale the big differentiator for you guys? Or is it the functionality? Because it sounds like with clients like door dash, and it looks a lot like Uber, they're doing a lot of stuff too, and I'm sure everyone needs the card. Other people doing the same kind of thing, that scale, massive amount of consumer data coming in on the edge. Yeah. Is that the differentiation or do you work for the old one, you know, main street enterprise, right. >>Um, that is a good part of the differentiation and for our product thus far before we had a distributor tracing for monitoring and metric data, that was the main differentiation is the sheer volume of data that gets produced so much higher, really excited about distributor tracing because that's actually not just a scale problem. It's, it's a space that everybody can see the potential distributor tracing yet. No one has really realized that potential. So our offering right now is fairly unique. It does things that no other vendors out there can do. And we're really excited about that because we think that that fundamentally solves the problem differently, not just at a larger scale, >>Because you're an expert, what is distributed tracing. >>Yeah. Uh, it's, it's, it's a great question. So really, if you look at this retracing, it captures the details of a particular request. So a particular customer interaction with your business and it captures how that request flows through your complex architecture, right? So you have every detail of that at every step of the way. And you can imagine this data is extremely rich and extremely useful to figure out what the underlying root causes of issues are. The problem with that is it's very bit boast. It's a lot of data gets produced. A ton of data gets produced, every interaction, every request. So one of the main issues are in this space is that people can't afford cost effectively to store all of this data. Right? So one of the main differentiators for our product is we made it cost efficient enough to store everything. And when you have all the data, you have far better analytics and you have >>Machine learning is better. Everything's better with data. That's right. Yeah. Great. What's the blind spot out. Different customers, as cybersecurity is always looking for corners and threats that some people say it's not what you want. It's what you don't see that kills you. That's, that's a tracing issue. That's a data problem. How do you see that evolving in your customer base clients, trying to get a handle of the visibility into the data? >>Yeah. Um, I think right now, again, it's, it's very early in this space of people are just getting started here and you're completely correct where, you know, you need that visibility. And again, this is why it's such a differentiator to have all the data. If you can imagine with only 10% of the data or 1% of data, how can you actually detect any of these particular issues? Right. So, uh, uh, data is key to solving that >>Feel great to have you guys on expert and congratulations on the funding, Jerry. Good to see you take a minute to give a plug for the company. What do you guys do? And actually close around the funding, told you a million dollars. Congratulations. What are you looking for for hiring? What are your milestones? What's on your plan plan. >>Yeah. Uh, so with the spanning, it's really to, to, uh, continue to grow the company, right? So we're sort of hiring, as I told you earlier, we are, uh, we grew our revenue this year by, by 10 X in the sense of the 10 months of this year, thus far. So our team hasn't really grown 10 X. So, so we, we need to keep up with that grid. So hiring across the board on engineering side, on the go to market side, and I just continue to >>Beat that. The headquarters, your virtual, if you don't mind, we've gone >>Completely distributed. Now we're mostly in the U S have a bunch of folks in Seattle and in New York, however, we going completely remote. So hiring anyone in the U S anywhere in Europe, uh, >>Oh, I got you here. What's your investment thesis. Now you got castles in the cloud, by the way, if you haven't seen the research from Greylock, Jerry and the team called castles in the cloud, you can Google it. What's your thesis now? What are you investing in? >>Yeah, it is. It is hard to always predict the next wave. I mean, my job is to find the right founders, but I'd say the three core areas are still the same one is this cloud disruption to Martin's point we're. So early days, the wave, I say, number two, uh, there's vertical apps, different SAS applications be finance, healthcare construction, all are changing. I think healthcare, especially the past couple of years through COVID, we've seen that's a market that needs to be digitized. And finally, FinTech, we talked about this before everything becomes a payments company, right? And that's why Stripe is such a huge juggernaut. You know, I don't think the world's all Stripe, but be it insurance payments, um, you know, stuff in crypto, whatever. I think fintechs still has a lot of, a lot of market to grow. >>It's making things easier. It's a good formula right now. If you can reduce complexity, it makes things easy in every market. You're going to seems to be the formula. >>And like the next great thing is making today's crappy thing better. Right? So the next, the next brace shows making this cube crappy thing. Yeah, >>We're getting better every day on our 11th season or year, I'm calling things seasons now, episodes and season for streaming, >>All the seasons drop a Netflix binge, watch them all the >>Cube plus and NFTs for our early videos. There'll be worth something because they're not that good, Jerry. How, of course you're great. Thank you. Thanks guys. Thanks for coming on it. Cubes coverage here in a physical event, 2021 cloud being the con CubeCon I'm John farrier and Dave Nicholson. Thanks for watching.

>>Okay, welcome back everyone. To the cubes coverage here, coop con cloud native con 2021 in person. The Cuba's here. I'm John farrier hosted the queue with Dave Nicholson, my cohost and cloud analyst, man. It's great to be back, uh, in person. We also have a hybrid event. We've got two great guests here, the founders of deep fence, sham, Krista Swami, C co-founder and CTO, and said deep line founder. It's great to have you on. This is a super important topic. As cloud native is crossed over. Everyone's talking about it mainstream, blah, blah, blah. But security is driving the agenda. You guys are in the middle of it. Cutting edge approach and news >>Like, like we were talking about John, we had operating at the intersection of the awesome desk, right? Open source security and cloud cloud native, essentially. Absolutely. And today's a super exciting day for us. We're launching something called track pepper, Apache V2, completely open source. Think of it as an x-ray or MRI scan for your cloud scan, you know, visualize this cloud at scale, all of the modalities, essentially, we look at cloud as a continuum. It's not a single modality it's containers. It's communities, it's William to settle we'll list all of them. Co-exist side by side. That's how we look at it and threat map. It essentially allows you to visualize all of this in real time, think of fed map, but as something that you, that, that takes over the Baton from the CIS unit, when the lift shift left gets over, that's when the threat pepper comes into picture. So yeah, super excited. >>It's like really gives that developer and the teams ops teams visibility into kind of health statistics of the cloud. But also, as you said, it's not just software mechanisms. The cloud is evolving, new sources being turned on and off. No one even knows what's going on. Sometimes this is a really hidden problem, right? Yeah, >>Absolutely. The basic problem is, I mean, I would just talk to, you know, a gentleman 70 of this morning is two 70 billion. Plus public cloud spent John two 70 billion plus even 3 billion, 30 billion they're saying right. Uh, projected revenue. And there is not even a single community tool to visualize all the clouds and all the cloud modalities at scale, let's start there. That's what we sort of decided, you know what, let's start with utilizing everything else there. And then look for known badness, which is the vulnerabilities, which still remains the biggest attack vector. >>Sure. Tell us about some of the hood. How does this all work cloud scale? Is it a cloud service managed service it's code? Take us out, take us through product. Absolutely. >>So, so, but before that, right, there's one small point that Sandeep mentioned. And Richard, I'd like to elaborate here, right? He spoke about the whole cloud spending such a large volume, right? If you look at the way people look at applications today, it's not just single clone anymore. It's multicloud multi regions across diverse plants, right? What does the solution to look at what my interests are to this point? That is a missing piece here. And that is what we're trying to tackle. And that is where we are going as open source. Coming back to your question, right? How does this whole thing work? So we have a completely on-prem model, right? Where customers can download the code today, install it. It can bill, we give binary stool and Shockley just as the exciting announcement that came out today, you're going to see somewhat exciting entrepreneurs. That's going to make a lot more easy for folks out there all day. Yeah, that's fine. >>So how does this, how does this all fit into security as a micro service and your, your vision of that? >>Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, I'll tell you, this has to do with the one of the continual conferences I would sort of when I was trying to get an idea, trying to shape the whole vision really? Right. Hey, what about syncretism? Microservice? I would go and ask people. They mentioned that sounds, that makes sense. Everything is becoming a microservice. Really. So what you're saying is you're going to deploy one more microservice, just like I deploy all of my other microservices. And that's going to look after my microservices. That compute back makes logical sense, essentially. That was the Genesis of that terminology. So defense essentially is deployed as a microservice. You go to scale, it's deployed, operated just like you to your microservices. So no code changes, no other tool chain changes. It just is yet another microservice. That's going to look after you talk about >>The, >>So there's one point I would like to add here, which is something very interesting, right? The whole concept of microservice came from, if you remember the memo from Jeff Bezos, that everybody's going to go, Microsoft would be fired. That gave rise to a very conventional unconditionally of thinking about their applications. Our deep friends, we believe that security should be. Now. You should bring the same unconventional way of thinking to security. Your security is all bottom up. No, it has to start popping up. So your applications on microservice, your security should also be a micro. >>So you need a microservice for a microservice security for the security. You're starting to get into a paradigm shift where you starting to see the API economy that bayzos and Amazon philosophy and their approach go Beanstream. So when I got to ask you, because this is a trend we've been watching and reporting on the actual application development processes, changing from the old school, you know, life cycle, software defined life cycle to now you've got machine learning and bots. You have AI. Now you have people are building apps differently. And the speed of which they want to code is high. And then other teams are slowing them down. So I've heard security teams just screw people over a couple of days. Oh my God, I can wait five days. No, it used to be five weeks. Now it's five days. They think that's progress. They want five minutes, the developers in real time. So this is a real deal optimum. >>Well, you know what? Shift left was a good thing. Instill a good thing. It helps you sort of figure out the issues early on in the development life cycle, essentially. Right? And so you started weaving in security early on and it stays with you. The problem is we are hydrating. So frequently you end up with a few hundred vulnerabilities every time you scan oftentimes few thousand and then you go to runtime and you can't really fix all these thousand one. You know? So this is where, so there is a little bit of a gap there. If you're saying, if look at the CIC cycle, the in financial cycle that they show you, right. You've got the far left, which is where you have the SAS tools, snake and all of that. And then you've got the center where, which is where you hand off this to ops. >>And then on the right side, you've got tech ops defense essentially starts in the middle and says, look, I know you've had thousand one abilities. Okay. But at run time, I see only one of those packages is loaded in memory. And only that is getting traffic. You go and fix that one because that's going to heart. You see what I'm saying? So that gap is what we're doing. So you start with the left, we come in in the middle and stay with you throughout, you know, till the whole, uh, she asks me. Yeah, well that >>Th that, that touches on a subject. What are the, what are the changes that we're seeing? What are the new threats that are associated with containerization and kind of coupled with that, look back on traditional security methods and how are our traditional security methods failing us with those new requirements that come out of the microservices and containerized world. And so, >>So having, having been at FireEye, I'll tell you I've worked on their windows products and Juniper, >>And very, very deeply involved in. >>And in fact, you know what I mean, at the company, we even sold a product to Palo Alto. So having been around the space, really, I think it's, it's, it's a, it's a foregone conclusion to say that attackers have become more sophisticated. Of course they have. Yeah. It's not a single attack vector, which gets you down anymore. It's not a script getting somewhere shooting who just sending one malicious HTP request exploiting, no, these are multi-vector multi-stage attacks. They, they evolve over time in space, you know? And then what happens is I could have shot a revolving with time and space, one notable cause of piling up. Right? And on the other side, you've got the infrastructure, which is getting fragmented. What I mean by fragmented is it's not one data center where everything would look and feel and smell similar it's containers and tuberosities and several lessons. All of that stuff is hackable, right? So you've got that big shift happening there. You've got attackers, how do you build visibility? So, in fact, initially we used to, we would go and speak with, uh, DevSecOps practitioner say, Hey, what is the coalition? Is it that you don't have enough scanners to scan? Is it that at runtime? What is the main problem? It's the lack of visibility, lack of observability throughout the life cycle, as well as through outage, it was an issue with allegation. >>And the fact that the attackers know that too, they're exploiting the fact that they can't see they're blind. And it's like, you know what? Trying to land a plane that flew yesterday and you think it's landing tomorrow. It's all like lagging. Right? Exactly. So I got to ask you, because this has comes up a lot, because remember when we're in our 11th season with the cube, and I remember conversations going back to 2010, a cloud's not secure. You know, this is before everyone realized shit, the club's better than on premises if you have it. Right. So a trend is emerged. I want to get your thoughts on this. What percentage of the hacks are because the attackers are lazier than the more sophisticated ones, because you see two buckets I'm going to get, I'm going to work hard to get this, or I'm going to go for the easy low-hanging fruit. Most people have just a setup that's just low hanging fruit for the hackers versus some sort of complex or thought through programmatic cloud system, because now is actually better if you do it. Right. So the more sophisticated the environment, the harder it is for the hackers, AK Bob wire, whatever you wanna call it, what level do we cross over? >>When does it go from the script periods to the, the, >>Katie's kind of like, okay, I want to go get the S3 bucket or whatever. There's like levels of like laziness. Yeah. Okay. I, yeah. Versus I'm really going to orchestrate Spearfish social engineer, the more sophisticated economy driven ones. Yeah. >>I think, you know what, this attackers, the hacks aren't being conducted the way they worked in the 10, five years ago, isn't saying that they been outsourced, there are sophisticated teams for building exploiters. This is the whole industry up there. Even the nation, it's an economy really. Right. So, um, the known badness or the known attacks, I think we have had tools. We have had their own tools, signature based tools, which would know, look for certain payloads and say, this is that I know it. Right. You get the stuff really starts sort of, uh, getting out of control when you have so many sort of different modalities running side by side. So much, so much moving attack surfaces, they will evolve. And you never know that you've scanned enough because you never happened because we just pushed the code. >>Yeah. So we've been covering the iron debt. Kim retired general, Keith Alexander, his company. They have this iron dome concept where there's more collective sharing. Um, how do you see that trend? Because I can almost imagine that the open-source man is going to love what you guys got. You're going to probably feed on it, like it's nobody's business, but then you start thinking, okay, we're going to be open. And you have a platform approach, not so much a tool based approach. So just give me tools. We all know that when does it, we cross over to the Nirvana of like real security sharing. Real-time telemetry data. >>And I want to answer this in two parts. The first part is really a lot of this wisdom is only in the community. It's a tribal knowledge. It's their informal feeds in from get up tickets. And you know, a lot of these things, what we're really doing with threat map, but as we are consolidating that and giving it out as a sort of platform that you can use, I like to go for free. This is the part you will never go to monetize this. And we are certain about disaster. What we are monetizing instead is you have, like I said, the x-ray or MRI scan of the cloud, which tells you what the pain points are. This is feel free. This is public collective good. This is a Patrick reader. This is for free. It's shocking. >>I took this long to get to that point, by the way, in this discussion. >>Yeah, >>This is this timing's perfect. >>Security is collective good. Right? And if you're doing open source, community-based, you know, programs like this is for the collector group. What we do look, this whole other set map is going to be open source. We going to make it a platform and our commercial version, which is called fetch Stryker, which is where we have our core IP, which is basically think about this way, right? If you figured out all the pain points and using tech map, or this was a free, and now you wanted the remedy for that pain feed to target a defense, we targeted quarantining of those statin workloads and all that stuff. And that's what our IP is. What we really do there is we said, look, you figured out the attack surface using tech fabric. Now I'm going to use threat Stryker to protect their attacks and stress >>Free. Not free to, or is that going to be Fort bang? >>Oh, that's for, okay. >>That's awesome. So you bring the goodness to the party, the goods to the party, again, share that collective, see where that goes. And the Stryker on top is how you guys monetize. >>And that's where we do some uniquely normal things. I would want to talk about that. If, if, if, if you know public probably for 30 seconds or so unique things we do in industry, which is basically being able to monitor what comes in, what goes out and what changes across time and space, because look, most of the modern attacks evolve over time and space, right? So you go to be able to see things like this. Here's a party structure, which has a vulnerability threats. Mapper told you that to strike. And what it does is it tells you a bunch of stress has a vulnerable again, know that somebody is sending a Melissa's HTP request, which has a malicious payload. And you know what, tomorrow there's a file system change. And there is outbound connection going to some funny place. That is the part that we're wanting this. >>Yeah. And you give away the tool to identify the threats and sell the hammer. >>That's giving you protection. >>Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. I love you guys love this product. I love how you're doing it. I got to ask you to define what is security as a microservice. >>So security is a microservice is a deployment modality for us. So defense, what defense has is one console. So defense is currently self posted by the customers within the infrastructure going forward. We'll also be launching a SAS version, the cloud version of it. But what happens as part of this deployment is they're running the management console, which is the gooey, and then a tiny sensor, which is collecting telemetric that is deployed as a microservice is what I'm saying. So you've got 10 containers running defenses level of container. That's, that's an eight or the Microsoft risk. And it utilizes, uh, EDP F you know, for tracing and all that stuff. Yeah. >>Awesome. Well, I think this is the beginning of a shift in the industry. You start to see dev ops and cloud native technologies become the operating model, not just dev dev ops are now in play and infrastructure as code, which is the ethos of a cloud generation is security is code. That's true. That's what you guys are doing. Thanks for coming on. Really appreciate it. Absolutely breaking news here in the queue, obviously great stuff. Open source continues to grow and win in the new model. Collaboration is the cube bringing you all the cover day one, the three days. I'm Jennifer, your host with Dave Nicholson. Thanks for watching.

>>Oh, welcome back to the cubes coverage of coop con cloud native con 2021. I'm John is the Cuba, David Nicholson, our cloud host analyst, and it's exciting to be back in person in event. So we're back. It's been two years with the cube con and Linux foundation. So scrape, it was a hybrid event and we have a great guest here, Cuban London, Nick Dirk, and CT field CTO of harness and harness.io. The URL love the.io. Good to see you. >>Thank you guys for having me on. I genuinely appreciate >>It. Thanks for coming on. You were a part of our AWS startup showcase, which you guys were featured as a fast growing mature company, uh, as cloud scales, you guys have been doing extremely well. So congratulations. But now we're in reality now, right? So, okay. Cloud native has kind of like, okay, we don't have to sell it anymore. People buying into it. Um, and now operationalizing it with cloud operations, which means you're running stuff, applications and infrastructure is code and it costs money. Yeah. Martine Casada at Andreessen Horowitz. Oh, repatriated from the cloud. So there's a lot of, there's some cost conversations starting to happen. This is what you guys are in the middle of. >>Yeah, absolutely. What's interesting is when you think about it today, we want to shift left. When you want to empower all the engineers, we want to empower people. We're not giving them the data they need, right. They get a call from the CFO 30 days later, as opposed to actually being able to look at what change I did and how it actually affected. And this is what we're bringing in. Allowing people to have is now really empowering. So throughout the whole software delivery life cycle from CGI continuous integration, continuous delivery feature flagging, and even bringing cost modeling and in cloud cost management. And even then being able to shut down, shut down the services that you're not using, how much of that is waste. We talk about it. Every single cloud conference it's how much is waste. And so being able to actually turn those on, use those accordingly and then take advantage of even the cheapest instances when you should. That's really what >>It's so funny. People almost trip over dollars to pick up pennies in the cloud business because they're so focused on innovation that they think, okay, we've got to just innovate at all costs, but at some point you can make it productive for the developers in process in the pipeline to actually manage that. >>That's exactly it. I mean, if you think about it to me in order to breach state continuous delivery, we have to automate everything. Right. But that doesn't mean stop at just delivering, you know, to production. That means to customer, which means we've got to make them happy, but then ultimately all of those resources in dev and QA and staging and UAT, we've sticker those as well. And if we're not being mindful of it, the costs are astronomical, right. And we've seen it time and time again with every company you see, you've seen every article about how they've blown through all their budgets. So bring it to the people that can affect change. That's really the difference, making it visible, looking at it. In-depth not just at the cloud level and all the spend there, but also even at the, uh, thinking about it, the Kubernetes level down to the containers, the pods and understanding where are the resources even inside of the clusters and bringing that as an aggregate, not just for visibility and, and giving recommendations, but now more importantly, because part of a pipeline start taking action. That's where it's interesting. It's not just about being able to see it and understand it and hope, right? Hope is not a strategy acting upon it is what makes it valuable. And that's part of the automate everything. >>Yeah. We'll let that at the Dawn of the age of DevOps, uh, there was a huge incentive for a developer just to get their job done, to seize control of infrastructure, the idea of infrastructure as code, you know, and it's, it's, you know, w when it was being born, it's a fantastic, I've always wondered though, you know, be careful what you wish for. Do you really want all of that responsibility? So we've got responsibility from a compliance and security perspective and of course cost. So, so where do we, where do we go from here, I guess is the question. Yeah. So >>When we look at building this all together, I think when we think about software delivery, everybody wants to go fast. We start with velocity, right? Everybody says, that's where I want to go. And to your point with governance compliance, the next roadblock to hit is weight. In order to go fast, I have to do it appropriately. I've got governing bodies that tell me how this has to work. And that becomes a challenge. >>It slows it down too. It doesn't, I mean, basically people are getting pissed off, right? This is, this general sentiment is, is that developers are moving fast with their code. And then they have to stop. Compliance has to give the green light sometimes days, correct? Uh, it used to be weeks now. It's days, it's still unacceptable. So there's like this always been that tension to the security groups or say it, or finance was like slow down and they actually want to go faster. So that has to be policy-based something. Yep. This is the future. What is your take on that? >>Take on, this is pretty simple. When everybody talks about people, process and technology, it's kind of bogus, right? It's all about confidence. If you're confident that your developers can deploy appropriately and they're not going to do something wrong, you'll let them to play all the time. Well, that requires process. But if you have tooling that literally guarantees your governance, make sure that at no point in time, can any of your developers actually do something wrong. Now you have, >>That's the key. That's the key. That's the key because you're giving them a policy-based guardrails to execute in their programs >>And that's it. So now you can free up all those pieces. So all those bottlenecks, all those waiting all those time, and this is how all of our customers, they move from, you know, change advisory boards that approve deployments. >>Can you give us some, give us some, give us some, uh, customer anecdotal examples of this inaction and kind of the love letters you get, or, or the customer you take us through a use case of how it all. >>So this is one of my favorites. So NCR national cash register. If you slide a credit card at like a Chick-fil-A or a Safeway, right? Um, traditional technology. But what was interesting is they went from doing PCI audit, which would take seven days to go to a PCI audit right now with harness, because, >>And by the way, when you and the seventh, six day, the things that you did on day one change. >>Exactly, exactly. And so now, because of using harness and everything's audited, and all the changes are, are controlled to make sure that developers again, can only do what they're allowed. They only get to broadcast two per production. If they've met all their security requirements, all their compliance, permits, all their quality checks. Now, because of that, they literally gave a re read only view of harness to their auditor. And in three hours it was over. And it's because now we're that evidence file from code commit through to production. Yeah. It's there for point of sale compliant. >>So what is the benefits to them? What's the result saves them time, saves the money. What's the good, the free up more times. I'll see the chops it down. That's the key. >>Yeah. It's actually something we didn't build in like our ROI calculators, which was, we talked to their engineers and we gave them their nights and their weekends back, which I thought was amazing. But Thursday night, when we're doing that deploy, they don't have to be up. Harness is actually managing and understanding, using machine learning to understand what normal looks like. So they don't have to, they don't have to sit and look at the knock or sit in the war room and eat the free pizza. Yeah. Right. And then when those things break, same concept rates aren't as good. So >>I got to ask you, I got you here. You know, as the software development delivery lifecycle is radically being overhauled right now, which people generally agree that that's the case, the old models are, are different. How do you see your vision around AI and automation playing into this? Because you could say, okay, we're going to have different kinds of coding styles. This batch has got an AI block here. It's very Lego block. Like yep. Okay. Services and higher level services in the cloud. What's your reaction to how this impacts automation and >>Sure. So throughout our entire platform, we've designed our AI to take care of the worst parts of anyone's job as Guinea dev ops person. If they love babysitting deployments, they don't harness handles that for them, ask your engineers that they love sitting there waiting for their tests to run. Every time they build, they go get coffee, right. Because we're waiting for all of our tests to run. Y yeah. Right. The reality >>Is sometimes they have to wait days and >>That's it. But like, if I change the gas cap on, uh, on your car, would you expect me to check every light switch and every electronic piece? No. Well, why do we do that with code? And so our AI, our ML is designed to remove all the things that people hate. It's not to remove people's jobs. It's actually to make their jobs much better. >>How do you guys feed the data? What's the training algorithm for that? How does that work? Yeah, >>Actually, it's interesting. A lot of people think it's going to take a ton of time to figure this out. The good news is we start seeing this on the second deployment. On the second bill, we have to have a baseline of what good looks like, and that's where it starts. And it goes from there. And by the way, this isn't a lot of people say AI, and this AML, I teach a class on this because ML is not standard deviation. It's not some checks. So we use a massive amount of machine learning, but we have neural networks to think about things like engineers do. Like if we looked at a log and I saw the same log with two different user IDs, you and I would know, well, it's the same thing. It's just different users, but machine learning models. Don't so we've got to build neural networks to actually think like humans. So that, >>So that's the whole expectation maximization kind of concept of people talk about, >>Well, and that's it because at the end of the day, we're like I said, I'm not trying to take people's jobs. I want to meet. >>Yeah. You want to do the crap work out of the way. And I had to do other redundant, heavy lifting that they have to do every single time we use the cloud way. We've >>Built mechanical muscle in, in the early 19 hundreds. Right. And it made everyone's jobs easier, allowed them to do more with their time. That's exactly what we're doing here. >>I mean, we've seen the big old guys in the industry trying to evolve. You got the hot startups coming out. So you got, you know, adapt or die as classic thing. We've been saying for many years, David on the cube, you know that. So it's like, this is a moment of truth. We're going to see who comes out the other side. How do you, Nick, what would you be your, your kind of guess of when that other side is, when are we gonna know the winners and the losers truly in the sense of where we are now? >>So I think what I've found is that in this space specifically, there's a constant shift and this is something with software. And the problem is, is that we see them come in ebbs and flows, right. And very few times are there businesses that actually carry the model? And what you find is that when they focus on one specific problem, it solves it. Now, if I was working on VMs a few years ago, great, but now we're, we're here at coop con, right? And that's because it's eaten, uh, that side of the world. And so I think it's the companies that can actually grow the test of time and continue to expand to where the problems are. Right. And that's one of the things that I traditionally think about harness and we've done it. We cover our customers where they were, I think the old mainframes, if you had to, where they were, where they are at their traditional, their VM. >>I mean, if you think about it, Nick, it's one of those things where it's like, that's such a common sense way to look at it evolves with a problem. So I ride the right with tech ways. But if you think about the high order bit, here is just applications. We ended the day. Companies have applications that they want to write modern. The applications of their business is going to be codified so that you just work backwards from there. Then you say, okay, what is the infrastructure as code working for me? That's an ethos of dev ops. And that's where we're at. So that's why I think that the cloud need is kind of one already, but we still have the edge devices, more complexity. This is a huge next level conversation at one point is that we just put a hard and top on the complexity. When is that coming? Because the developers are clear. They want to go fast. They want to go shift left and have all that data, get the right analytics, the telemetry and the AI. But it's too complicated still. That is a big problem. >>It's too complicated. You ask for a full-stack developer to also know infrastructure, to also know edge computing. Like it's impossible, right? And this is where tooling helps, right? Because if you can actually parameterize that and make it to the engineers and have to care, they can do what they're best at. Hey, I'm great at turning code in artifact, let them do that and have tooling take care of the rest. This is where our goal is. Again, allow people >>We'll do what they love. And this is kind of the new roles that are changing. What SRE has done. Everyone talks about the SRE and some states just as he had dev ops guy, but it's not just that there's also, uh, different roles emerging. It's, it's an architectural game. At this point, we would say, >>I'd say a hundred percent. And this is where the decisions that you make on are architecturally. If you don't know how to then roll them out, this is what we've seen. Time and time again, you go to these large companies, I've got these great architectures on planning four years later, we haven't reached it because to that point process, >>The process killed them four >>Different new tools throughout the process. Well, yeah. >>So when do we hit peak Kubernetes peak >>Kubernetes? I think we have a bit to go in and I'm excited about the networking space and really what we're doing there and, and bringing that holistic portion of the network, like when Istio was originally released, I thought that was one of the most amazing things, uh, to truly come to it. And I think there's a vast space in networking. Um, and, and so I think in the next few years, we're going to see this, you know, turn into that a hundred percent utilized across the board. This will be that where everyone's workloads continue to exist. Um, somewhat like VMs we're in >>And, and, and no, no fear of developers as code in the very near future. You're talking about automating the mundane. Correct. Uh, there have been stories recently about the three-day workweek, you know, as a, as a fan of, um, utopian science fiction, myself, as opposed to dystopian. Absolutely. I think that, you know, technology does have the opportunity to lift all boats and, uh, and it's, it's not nothing to be afraid of. You know, the fact that I put my dishes in the dishwasher and they run by themselves for three hours. It's a good thing. It's a great thing. >>I don't need to deal with that. Yeah, I agree. No, I think that's, and that's what I said in the beginning. Right. That's really where we can start empowering people. So allow them to do what they're good at and do what they're best at. And if you look at why do people quit? We don't have to go so hard to find. Yeah. Why? Because they're secondary to babysit and implement and they're told everywhere they go, they're not going to have to >>That's the line. And that's all right. We got a break, but it's great insight to have you on the Q one final question for you. Um, I got to ask about the whole data as code something that I've been riffing on for a bunch of years now. And as infrastructures could we get that, but data is now the resource everyone needs, and everyone's trying to, okay, I have the control plane for this and that, but ultimately data cannot be siloed. This is a critical architectural element. How does that get resolved in the land of the competitive advantage and lock in and whatnot? What's your take on that? >>So data's an interesting one because it has, it has gravity and this is the problem. And as we move, as I think you guys know, as you move to the edge as remove, move it places there's insights to be taken at the edge there's insights to be taken as it moves through. And I think what you'll see honestly, going forward is you'll see compute done differently to your point. It needs to be aggregated. It needs to be able to be used together, but I think you'll see people computing it on its way through it. So now even in transport, you'll start seeing insights gained in real time before you can have the larger insights. And I see that happening more and more. Um, and I think ultimately we just want to empower that >>Nick, great to have you on CTO of field CTO of harness and harness.io is a URL. Check it out. Thanks for the insight. Thank you so much. Great comments. Appreciate it. Natural cube analysts right here, Nick, of course, we've got our, our analysts right here, David Nicholson. You're good on your own. I'm John for a, you know, we have the host. Thanks for watching. Stay with two more days of coverage. We'll be back after this short break.

>>Hello everyone Welcome to the cubes coverage of cubic on cloud native come here in person in L A 2021. I'm john ferrier, host of the Cuban Dave Nicholson host cloud host for the cube and of course former host of the cube steve minutemen. Now at red hat stew, we do our normal keynote reviews. We had to have you come back first while hazard and red hat >>john it's phenomenal. Great to see you nice to have Dave be on the program here too. It's been awesome. So yeah, a year and a day since I joined Red hat and uh, I do miss you guys always enjoyed doing the interviews in the cube. But you know, we're still in the community and still interacting lots, >>but we love you too. And Davis, your new replacement and covering the cloud angles. He's gonna bring little stew mo jokes of the interview but still, we've always done the wrap up has always been our favorite interviews to do an analysis of the keynote because let's face it, that's where all the action is. Of course we bring the commentary, but this year it's important because it's the first time we've had an event in two years too. So a lot of people, you know, aren't saying this on camera a lot, but they're kind of nervous. They're worried they're weirded out. We're back in person again. What do I feel? I haven't seen people, I've been working with people online. This is the top story. >>Yeah, john I thought they did a really good job in the keynote this morning. Normally, I mean this community in general is good with inclusion. Part of that inclusion is hey, what are you comfortable with if your remote? We still love you and it's okay. And if you're here in person, you might see there's wrist bands of green, yellow, red as in like, hey, you okay with a handshake. You want to do there or stay the f away from me because I'm not really that comfortable yet being here and it's whatever you're comfortable with. That's okay. >>I think the inclusion and the whole respect for the individual code of conduct, C N C. F and limits Foundation has been on the front end of all those trends. I love how they're taking it to a whole nother level. David, I want to get your take because now with multi cloud, we heard the same message over and over again that hey, open winds, okay. Open winds and still changing fast. What's your take? >>Open absolutely wins. It's uh, it's the present. It's the future. I know in some of the conversations we've had with folks looking back over the last seven years, a lot of things have changed. Um, whenever I think of open source anything, I go back to the foundations of Lennox and I remember a time when you had to reboot a Linux server to re scan a scuzzy bus to add a new storage device and we all sort of put our penguin hats on and kind of ignored that for a while. And uh, and, and as things are developed, we keep coming into these new situations. Multi cluster management was a big, big point of conversation in the keynote today. It's fascinating when you start thinking about something that was once sort of a back room science experiment. Absolutely. It's the center of the enterprise now from a software >>from an open tour standpoint security has been one of those front and center things. One of the day, zero events that got a lot of buzz coming at the beginning of the week was secure supply chain. So with the Solar Wind act going in there, you know, we remember cloud, wait, can I trust it with the security? Open source right now. Open source and security go together. Open source and the security in the cloud all go together. So you know that that wave of open source, obviously one of the things that brought me to red hat, I'd had a couple of decades, you know, working within the enterprise and open source and that that adoption curve which went through a few bumps in the road over time and it took time. But today, I mean open sources have given this show in this ecosystem are such proof >>points of a couple things. I noticed one, I want to do a shout out for the folks who put a nice tribute for dan Kaminsky who has passed away and we miss him. We saw on the Cube 2019, I believe he's on the Cube that year with Adam on big influence, but the inclusiveness do and the community is changing. I think security has changed a lot and I want to get your guys take on this. Security has forced a lot of things happen faster data, open data. Okay. And kubernetes to get hardened faster stew. I know your team's working on it. We know what Azure and amazon is working on it. What do you guys think about how security's been forcing the advances in kubernetes and making that stable? >>Yeah. So john security, you know, is job one, it is everyone's responsibility. We talk about it from a container and kubernetes standpoint. We think we have a relatively good handle on what's happening in the kubernetes space red hat, we made an acquisition earlier this year of stack rocks, which was one of the leading kubernetes native security pieces. But you know, john we know security isn't just a moat anymore in a wall that you put up every single piece. You need to think about it. Um, I've got a person from the stack rocks acquisition actually on my team now and have told him like hey, you need to cross train all of us. We need to understand this more from a marketing standpoint, we need to talk about it from a developer standpoint. We need to have consideration of it. It's no longer, hey, it works okay on my machine. Come on, It needs to go to production. We all know this shift left is something we've been talking about for many years. So yes, security, security, security, we cannot overemphasize how important is um, you know, when it comes to cooper, I think, you know, were relatively mature, we're crossing the chasm, the adoption numbers are there, so it's not an impediment anymore. >>It's totally next level. I don't agree with this too. David, get your thoughts on this whole adoption um, roadmap that put it together, one of the working groups that we interviewed has got that kind of navigate, kinda like trailheads for salesforce, but that speaks to the adoption by mainstream enterprises, not the hard core, >>you know, >>us devops guys, but like it goes into mainstream main main street enterprise had I. T. Department and security groups there, like we got a program faster. How do you see the cloud guys in this ecosystem competing and making that go faster. >>So it's been interesting over the last decade or more often, technology has been ahead of people's comfort level with that technology for obvious reasons, it's not just something went wrong, it's something went wrong. I lost my job. Really, really bad things happened. So we tend to be conservative. Rightfully so in the sometimes there are these seminal moments where a shift happens go back sort of analogous go back to a time when people's main concern with VM ware was how can I get support from Microsoft and all of a sudden it went from that within weeks to how can I deploy this in my enterprise very, very quickly. And I'm fascinated by this concept of locking down the supply chain of code, uh sort of analogous to https, secure, http. It's the idea of making sure that these blocks of code are validated and secure as they get implemented. You mentioned, you mentioned things like cluster and pad's security and infrastructure security. >>Well, David, you brought up a really good point. So get off is the instance creation of that. How can I have my infrastructure as code? How can I make sure that I don't have drift? It's because I could just, it'll live and get hub and therefore it's version controlled. If I try to do something, it will validate that it's there and keep me on version because we know john we talked about it for years on the cube, we've gone beyond human scale if I don't build automation into it, if I don't have the guard rails in place because humans will mess things up so we need to make sure that we have the processes and the automation in place and kubernetes was built for that automation at its core, putting in, we've seen get up the Argosy, D was only went graduated, you know, the one dato was supported as coupon europe. Earlier this year, we already had a number of our customers deploying it using it. Talking publicly >>about it too. I want to get the kid apps angle and that's a good call out there and, and mainly because when we were on the cute, when you work, you post with with us, we were always cheerleading for Cuban. It we love because we've been here every single coupon. We were one saying this is gonna be big trust us and it is, it happens to so, but now we've been kind of, we don't have to sell it anymore. We don't, I mean not that we're selling it, but like we don't have to be a proponent of something we knew was going to happen, it happened. You're now work for a vendor red hat you talk to customers. What is that next level conversation look like now that they know it's real, they have to do it. How is the tops and then modern applications development, changing. What are your observations? Can you share with us from a redhead perspective as someone who's talking to customers, you know, what does real look like? >>Yeah. So get off is a great example of that. So, you know, certain of our government agencies that we work with, you know, obviously very secured about, you know, we want zero trust who do we put in charge of things. So if they can have, you know that that source of truth and know that that is maintained and lockdown and not await some admin is gonna mess something up on us either maliciously or oops, by accident or anything in between. That's why they were pushing that adoption of that kind of technology. So absolutely they, for the most part john they don't want to have to think about the infrastructure piece anymore. What if developers want the old past days was I want to be able to, you know, write once deploy anywhere, live anywhere, containers helps that a little bit. We even have in the container space. Now you can, you can use a service deployment model with Okay. Natives, the big open source project that, you know, VM ware ourselves are working on google's involved in it. So, you know, having us be able to focus on the business and not, you know, running the plumbing anymore. >>That's exactly, that's exactly, that's what we're so psyched for. Okay guys, let's wrap this up and and review the keynote day will start with you. What do you think of the keynote? What were the highlights? What do you take away from the taste keynote? >>So you touched on a couple of things, uh inclusion from all sorts of different angles. Really impressive. This sort of easing back into the world of being face to face. I think they're doing a fantastic job at that. The thing that struck me was something I mentioned earlier. Um moving into multi cluster management in a way that really speaks to enterprise deployments and the complexity of enterprise deployments moving forward? It's not just, it's not just, I'm a developer, I'm using resources in the cloud. I'm doing things this way, the rest of the enterprises doing it a legacy way. It's really an acknowledgement that these things are coming together increasingly. That's what really struck me >>to do. What's your takeaway from the end? >>So there's been a discussion in the industry, you know, what do the next million cloud customers look like we've crossed the chasm on kubernetes. One of the things they announced the keynote is they have a new associate level certification because I tell you before the keynote, I stopped by the breakfast area, saturday table, talk to a couple people. One guy was like, hey, I'm been on amazon for a bunch of years, but I'm a kubernetes newbie, I'm here to learn about that. It's not the same person that five years ago was like, I'm gonna grab all these projects and pull them down from getting, build my stack and you know, have a platform team to manage it from a red hat standpoint, we're delivering our biggest growth areas in cloud services where hey, I've got an SRE team, they can manage all that because can you do it? Sure you got people maybe you'll hire him, but wouldn't you rather have them work on, you know, that security initiative or that new application or some of these pieces, you know, what can you shift to your vendor? What can you offload from your team because we know the only constant is that things are gonna there's gonna be gonna be new pieces and I don't want to have to look at, oh there's another 20 new projects and how does that fit? Can I have a partner or consultant in sc that can help me integrate that into my environment when it makes sense for me because otherwise, oh my God, cloud, So much innovation. How do I grasp what I want? >>Great stuff guys, I would just say my summary is that okay? I'm excited this community has broken through the pandemic and survived and thrived people were working together during the pandemic. It's like a V. I. P. Event here. So that my keynote epiphany was this is like the who's who some big players are here. I saw Bill Vaz from amazon on the on the ground floor on monday night, He's number two at a W. S. I saw some top Vcs here. Microsoft IBM red hat the whole way tracks back. Whole track is back and it's a hybrid event. So I think we're here for the long haul with hybrid events where you can see a lot more in person, V. I. P. Like vibe people are doing deals. It feels alive too and it's all open. So it's all cool. And again, the team at C. N. C. F. They do an exceptional job of inclusion and making people feel safe and cool. So, great job. Thanks for coming on. I appreciate it. Good stuff. Okay. The keynote review from the cube Stupid Man shot for Dave Nicholson. Thanks for watching >>mm mm mm.

>>And welcome back to the cubes coverage of coop con cloud native con 2021. We're in person physical venom, John free hosted a Q a Dave Nicholson, my CO's and Emma Laney, who is our not so roving reporter unemployed, software engineer, unemployed comedian. Great to have you on the cube. >>Thank you for that list of credentials. >>You're doing great. I saw you're having some fun down there. We've got this new show or testing out called the grill. Here it is. Okay. Um, what's the focus, what's the story behind everything. >>Uh, the focus of the show is trying to have some fun with tech. You know, tech has a lot of self seriousness. Uh, there's a lot that's ripe to make fun of. We're also having fun. We're not trying to grill people in. We're not trying to roast them. Right? We're having people come through. They're sharing funny stories. We're having a contest to find the best man split nation of Kubernetes. Right now, I got to say, a woman is in the lead. Oh, she killed that contest, like called me, sweetie. And everything. It just proves that it's not about the man. You identify as it's about the condensation in your heart when it comes to mansplaining. >>Um, what is the best criteria that you, when you get a candidate for the mansplaining competition, what is the criteria? >>I mean, number one, we're looking for condensation. You get extra points for you, the phrase, well, actually we want a supercilious attitude. Uh, if you are partially into explaining it and then you stop yourself because you think you've used too technical of a term and then step it down, all of those gets you extra points in the mansplaining. >>Can I ask you, what's your biggest observation as you kind of look at this ecosystem? I mean, it's a big event, but it's, COVID postpone even in COVID people are wearing masks, not wearing masks. >>I mean, people are wearing masks for the most part. Uh, you know, I did love this, uh, red light, yellow light green light system. They came up with green, meaning please touch me. I've been inside for too long red meaning I still care about COVID yellow. You know, ask me, we'll figure it >>Out. All right. What's the funniest thing you've heard so far. >>The funniest thing I have to say, I asked someone what their favorite tech joke is. And he said it worked on my computer That really stirred up some memories. >>Oh man, we're in LA though. This is a great area. It's literally with the best comedians you could think of or work their way through the system. But with techno and everything is tech with gadgets and with like Kubernetes, I mean, it's, it's the material writes itself. I mean, >>Surely >>You must be having, >>Oh, I'm definitely having a ton of fun. Uh, I wouldn't say the material writes itself. I would say hire me to write material, but it is quite a fertile. >>Okay. What would you write for, uh, looking at the keynote today? Looking at the vibe here, obviously a lot of people show because they're remote, but visually it's a packed house here, but what's your first comedic view of the, as the fog lifts in this community? >>I have to say the thing that really stuck out to me from the keynote addresses was that people have not yet adjusted to being in person. There were some very, very delayed applause breaks where people realize they were not muted watching on a screen and you'd still go, oh, that's right. We should interact. Like God bless those speakers. It's uh, people have been inside for a long time. >>Um, part-time comedian too. I mean, co-hosting queue. Um, I don't, I, >>I don't find anything funny with technology. And I'm curious when you use the word supercilious, is that a, is that a comedic term? I, I, yes. >>I heard that before. It's the Latin form of super silly. Yeah. Which is my brand of comedy. >>So the mansplaining, I don't know if you need to like, woman's plane, some of this stuff to me, but I'll English >>Major Splain. Okay. Okay. Super silliest. >>It sounds super silly. So is it, is it, is it okay to have a ringer come in and attempt make an attempt at the mansplaining or >>Okay. A hundred >>Percent come in wearing it. >>I'm trying to make this a safe space for women at the conference. I'm the only woman you should be mansplaining to. I'm a martyr falling on the sword of mansplaining for all the great technical women at this conference. You slip that in >>And translate that. >>Of course, John, I don't know how to explain that to them more detailed. Um, what I love about the vibe is that this technical people they're snarky. If you get at their core, I mean, we were at the bar. Everyone was like totally leaning into like comedy and more fun because it's almost like they're bust out, come out of the closet and beat comedian. >>Oh, there is a broiling anger in the soul of every developer and every person who's worked on technology. And the question is going to be, can we get it on camera when they are not drunk, we're doing our >>Best to drink. These developers don't >>Think, oh, they do desperately. >>We saw a few partaking in the bar at the GTA merit and a lot going on. You had the, you know, they had warriors game going on. You have a lot of Dodgers were playing the giants. So pretty active bar scene for this crowd. >>Yeah, no, it was, uh, it was very fun. I personally was disappointed that the warriors are not actually staying in our hotel. You know, if this software thing doesn't work out, NBA wife is a possible second. >>And the Ritz Carlton was right behind us. You could be right there too. All right. So the grill is, uh, an experiment. We're having some fun with it, but the purpose is to just chill a bit. What's the, what would you say the goal of the show is for you? >>I'd say the goal is to get people to come out of their shells a little bit, to have some fun, to poke fun at some of the tendencies that we see in tech that we often don't bring up. You know, like I'm having so much fun with the man's pollination. Uh, I've lived it a bit. And my favorite is, uh, as I asked men to mansplain it to me, the panic in their eyes, that's my ultimate goal is just to make men afraid. >>And the panic is because they don't know if they're mansplaining all the time or actually purposely mansplaining is hard enough, but they do it naturally. Sorry. >>I have three daughters and I can't wait for them to see this stuff. I cannot >>Wait. That's going to be >>Great. Well, we have cooler gen Z. >>Well, we have t-shirts right. Let me see the t-shirts give everyone a quick, if you come on, this is day one of coupons. So if you do come on the show with the grill, I'm the t-shirt ferry. The grill is real. It's like the V the cubes version of the view, but >>Wow, just because I'm a woman, the, uh, the t-shirt is a big incentive. I'm sure a lot of people go to tech conferences don't get any free. T-shirts good. >>I got grilled by a net. Lilium, the cube at cube con con not cube >>Con. It's a medium rare grilling. >>I couldn't resist the view jokes. I know I'm in color. We'll keep our day jobs here in the comedian angle. We got to >>Believe that's true. Yes. When I look at the wavelengths of >>Light on that, I'm super stoked to have you try that. I think it's a great program, Greg. God. So you guys doing a great job, loved the vibe, love the energy, love the creativity, having some fun. See the poster one last time. And the idea is to have some fun, right? It's a tough time. We're all coming back from the pandemic, welcoming back from the pandemic. And this is just a fun way to kind of let the air out and have some fun. So thanks for everyone. Thank you so much for doing that. Thank you. All right. Cute coverage here. Coop gone. Cloud native con I'm John Perry, David Nicholson. Be back with more day, one coverage of three days after the short break.

>>welcome back everyone to the cube con cloud, David Kahn coverage. I'm john for a host of the cube, we're here in person, 2020 20 a real event, it's a hybrid event, we're streaming live to you with all the great coverage and guests coming on next three days. Clayton Coleman's chief Hybrid cloud architect for Red Hat is joining me here to go over viewers talk but also talk about hybrid cloud. Multi cloud where it's all going road red hats doing great to see you thanks coming on. It's a pleasure to be >>back. It's a pleasure to be back in cuba con. >>Uh it's an honor to have you on as a chief architect at Red Hat on hybrid cloud. It is the hottest area in the market right now. The biggest story we were back in person. That's the biggest story here. The second biggest story, that's the most important story is hybrid cloud. And what does it mean for multi cloud, this is a key trend. You just gave a talk here. What's your take on it? You >>know, I, I like to summarize hybrid cloud as the answer to. It's really the summarization of yes please more of everything, which is, we don't have one of anything. Nobody has got any kind of real footprint is single cloud. They're not single framework, they're not single language, they're not single application server, they're not single container platform, they're not single VM technology. And so, um, and then, you know, looking around here in this, uh, partner space where eight years into kubernetes and there is an enormous ecosystem of tools, technologies, capabilities, add ons, plug ins components that make our applications better. Um the modern application landscape is so huge that I think that's what hybrid really is is it's we've got all these places to run stuff more than ever and we've got all this stuff to run more than ever and it doesn't slow down. So how do we bring sanity to that? How do we understand it? Bring it together and companies has been a big part of that, like it unlocked some of that. What's the next step? >>Yeah, that's a great, great commentary. I want to take into the kubernetes piece but you know, as we've been reporting the digital transformation at all time, high speed is the number one request. People want to go faster, not just speeds and feeds, but like ship code fast to build apps faster. Make it all run faster and secure. Okay, check, get that. Look what we were 15, 15 years ago, 10 years ago, five years ago, 2016. The first coupe con in Seattle we were there for small events kubernetes, we gotta sell it, figure it out. Right convince people >>that it's a it's worth >>it. Yeah. So what's your take on that? Well, I mean, it's mature, it's kind of de facto standard at this point. What's missing. Where is it? >>So I think Kubernetes has succeeded at the core mission which is helping us stop worrying about all the problems that we spent endless amounts of time arguing about, how do I deploy software, How do I roll it out? But in the meantime we've added more types of software. You know, the rise of ai ml um you know, the whole the whole ecosystem around training software models like what is a what is an Ai model? Is it look like an application, does it look like a job? It's part batch, part service. Um It's spread out to the edge. We've added mobile devices. The explosion in mobile computing over the last 10 years has co evolved. And so kubernetes succeeded at that kind of set a floor for what everybody thought was an application. And in the meantime we've added all these other parts of the application. >>It's funny, you know, David Anthony, we're talking about what's to minimum and networks at red hat will be on later. Back in the first two cubicles were like, you know, this is like a TCP I P moment, the Os I model that was a killer part of the stack. Now it was all standardized below TCP I. P. Company feels like a similar kind of construct where it's unifying, is creating some enablement, It's enabling some innovation and it kind of brought everyone together at the same time everyone realized that that's real, >>the whole >>cloud native is real. And now we're in an era now where people are talking about doing things that are completely different. You mentioned as a batch job house ai new software paradigm development paradigms, not to suffer during the lifecycle, but just like software development in general is impacted. >>Absolutely. And you know, the components like, you know, we spent a lot of time talking about how to test and build application, but those are things that we all kind of internalized now we we have seen the processes is critical because it's going to be in lots of places, people are looking to standardize. But sometimes the new technology comes up alongside the side, the thing we're trying to standardize, we're like, well let's just use the new technology instead function as a service is kind of uh it came up, you know, kubernetes group K Native. And then you see, you know, the proliferation of functions as a service choices, what do people use? So there's a lot of choice and we're all building on those common layers, but everybody kind of has their own opinions, everybody's doing something subtly different. >>Let me ask you your opinion on on more under the Hood kind of complexity challenge. There's general consensus in the industry that does a lot of complexity. Okay, you don't mean debate that, but that's in a way, a good thing in the sense if you solve that, that's where innovation comes in. So the goal is to solve complexity, abstract out of the heavy lifting under heavy living in Sandy Jackson. And I would say, or abstract away complexity make things easier to use >>Well and an open source and this ecosystem is an amazing um it's one of the most effective methods we've ever found for trying every possible solution and keeping the five or six most successful and that's a little bit like developers, developers flow downhill, developers are going to do, it's easy if it's easier to put a credit card in and go to the public cloud, you're gonna do it if you can take control away from the teams at your organization that are there to protect you, but maybe aren't as responsive as you like. People will, people will go around those. And so I think a little bit of what we're trying to do is what are the commonalities that we could pick out of this ecosystem that everybody agrees on and make those the downhill path that people follow, not putting a credit card into a cloud, but offering a way for you not to think about what clouds are on until you need to write, because you want to go to the fridge is a developer, you wanna go the fridge, pull out your favorite brand of soda, that favorite band Isoda might have an AWS label also >>talk about the open shift and the Kubernetes relationship, you guys push the boundaries. Um Den is being controlled playing and nodes, these are things that you talked about in your talk, talk about because you guys made some good bets on open shift, we've been covering that, how's that playing out now? It's a relationship now >>is interesting coming into kubernetes, we came in from the platform as a service angle, right, Platform as a service was the first iteration of trying to make the lowest cost path for developers to flow to business value um and so we added things on top of kubernetes, we knew that we were going to complex, so we built in a little bit um in our structure and our way of thinking about cube that it was never going to be just that basic bare bones package that you're gonna have to make choices for people that made sense. Ah obviously as the ecosystems grown, we've tried to grow with it, we've tried to be a layer above kubernetes, we've tried to be a layer in between kubernetes, we've tried to be a layer underneath kubernetes and all of these are valid places to be. Um I think that next step is we're all kind of asking, you know, we've got all this stuff, are there any ways that we can be more efficient? So I like to think about practical benefits, what is a practical benefit That a little bit of opinion nation could bring to this ecosystem and I think it's around applications, it's being application centric, it's what is a team, 90% of the time need to be successful, they need a way to get their code out, they need to get it to the places that they wanted to be, and that place is everywhere. It's not one cloud or on premises or a data center, it's the edge, it's running as a lambda. It's running inside devices that might be being designed in this very room today. >>It's interesting. You know, you're an architect, but also the computer science industry is the people who were trained in the area are learning. It's pretty fascinating and almost intoxicating right now in this this market because you have an operating system, dynamic systems kind of programming model with distributed cloud, edge on fire, that's only gonna get more complicated with 5G and high density data applications. Um and then you've got this changing modal mode of operations were programming with bots and Ai and machine learning to new things, but it's kind of the same distributed computing paradigm. Yeah. What's your reaction to that? >>Well, and it's it's interesting. I was kind of described like layers. We've gone from Lenox replaced proprietary UNIX or mainframe to virtualization, which, and then we had a lot of Lennox, we had some windows too. And then we moved to public cloud and private cloud. We brought config management and moved to kubernetes, um we still got that. Os at the heart of what we do. We've got, uh application libraries and we've shared services and common services. I think it's interesting like to learn from Lennox's lesson, which is we want to build an open expansive ecosystem, You're kind of like kind of like what's going on. We want to pick enough opinion nation that it just works because I think just works is what, let's be honest, like we could come up with all the great theories of what the right way computers should be done, but it's gonna be what's easy, what gets people help them get their jobs done, trying to time to take that from where people are today on cube in cloud, on multiple clouds, give them just a little bit more consolidation. And I think it's a trick people or convince people by showing them how much easier it could be. >>You know, what's interesting around um, what you guys have done a red hat is that you guys have real customers are demanding, you have enterprise customers. So you have your eye on the front edge of the, of the bleeding edge, making things easier. And I think that's good enough is a good angle, but let's, let's face it, people are just lifting and shifting to the cloud now. They haven't yet re factored and re factoring is a concept of taking what you're doing in the cloud of taking advantage of new services to change the operating dynamic and value proposition of say the application. So the smart money is all going there, seeing the funding come into applications that are leveraging the new platform? Re platform and then re factoring what's your take on that because you got the edge, you have other things happening. >>There are so many more types of applications today. And it's interesting because almost all of them start with real practical problems that enterprises or growing tech companies or companies that aren't tech companies but have a very strong tech component. Right? That's the biggest transformation the last 15 years is that you can be a tech company without ever calling yourself a tech company because you have a website and you have an upset and your entire business model flows like that. So there is, I think pragmatically people are, they're okay with their footprint where it is. They're looking to consolidate their very interested in taking advantage of the scale that modern cloud offers them and they're trying to figure out how to bring all the advantages that they have in these modern technologies to these new footprints and these new form factors that they're trying to fit into, whether that's an application running on the edge next to their load bouncer in a gateway, in telco five Gs happening right now. Red hat's been really heavily involved in a telco ecosystem and it's kubernetes through and through its building on those kinds of principles. What are the concepts that help make a hybrid application, an application that spans the data flowing from a device back to the cloud, out to a Gateway processed by a big data system in a private region, someplace where computers cheap can't >>be asylum? No, absolutely not has to be distributed non siloed based >>and how do we do that and keep security? How do we help you track where your data is and who's talking to whom? Um there's a lot of, there's a lot of people here today who are helping people connect. I think that next step that contact connectivity, the knowing who's talking and how they're connecting, that'll be a fundamental part of what emerges as >>that's why I think the observe ability to me is the data is really about a data funding a new data sector of the market that's going to be addressable. I think data address ability is critical. Clayton really appreciate you coming on. And giving a perspective an expert in the field. I gotta ask you, you know, I gotta say from a personal standpoint how open source has truly been a real enabler. You look at how fast new things could come in and be adopted and vetted and things get kicked around people try stuff that fails, but it's they they build on each other. Right? So a I for example, it's just a great example of look at what machine learning and AI is going on, how fast that's been adopted. Absolutely. I don't think that would be done in open source. I have to ask you guys at red hat as you continue your mission and with IBM with that partnership, how do you see people participating with you guys? You're here, you're part of the ecosystem, big player, how you guys continue to work with the community? Take a minute to share what you're working on. >>So uh first off, it's impossible to get anything done I think in this ecosystem without being open first. Um and that's something the red at and IBM are both committed to. A lot of what I try to do is I try to map from the very complex problems that people bring to us because every problem in applications is complex at some later and you've got to have the expertise but there's so much expertise. So you got to be able to blend the experts in a particular technology, the experts in a particular problem domain like the folks who consult or contract or helped design some of these architectures or have that experience at large companies and then move on to advise others and how to proceed. And then you have to be able to take those lessons put them in technology and the technology has to go back and take that feedback. I would say my primary goal is to come to these sorts of events and to share what everyone is facing because if we as a group aren't all working at some level, there won't be the ability of those organizations to react because none of us know the whole stack, none of us know the whole set of details >>And this text changing too. I mean you got to get a reference to a side while it's more than 80s metaphor. But you know, but that changed the game on proprietary and that was like >>getting it allows us to think and to separate. You know, you want to have nice thin layers that the world on top doesn't worry about below except when you need to and below program you can make things more efficient and public cloud, open source kubernetes and the proliferation of applications on top That's happening today. I >>mean Palmer gets used to talk about the hardened top when he was the VM ware Ceo Back in 2010. Remember him saying that he says she predicted >>the whole, we >>call it the mainframe in the cloud at the time because it was a funny thing to say, but it was really a computer. I mean essentially distributed nature of the cloud. It happened. Absolutely. Clayton, thanks for coming on the Cuban sharing your insights appreciate. It was a pleasure. Thank you. Right click here on the Cuban john furry. You're here live in L A for coupon cloud native in person. It's a hybrid event was streaming Also going to the cube platform as well. Check us out there all the interviews. Three days of coverage, we'll be right back Yeah. Mm mm mm I have

(upbeat soft intro music) >> Hey everyone. Welcome back to theCube's live coverage from Los Angeles of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2021. Lisa Martin with Dave Nicholson, Dave and I are pleased to welcome our next guest remotely. Steven Huels joins us, the senior director of Cloud Services at Red Hat. Steven, welcome to the program. >> Steven: Thanks, Lisa. Good to be here with you and Dave. >> Talk to me about where you're seeing traction from an AI/ML perspective? Like where are you seeing that traction? What are you seeing? Like it. >> It's a great starter question here, right? Like AI/ML is really being employed everywhere, right? Regardless of industry. So financial services, telco, governments, manufacturing, retail. Everyone at this point is finding a use for AI/ML. They're looking for ways to better take advantage of the data that they've been collecting for these years. It really, it wasn't all that long ago when we were talking to customers about Kubernetes and containers, you know, AI/ML really wasn't a core topic where they were looking to use a Kubernetes platform to address those types of workloads. But in the last couple of years, that's really skyrocketed. We're seeing a lot of interest from existing customers that are using Red Hat open shift, which is a Kubernetes based platform to take those AI/ML workloads and take them from what they've been doing for additionally, for experimentation, and really get them into production and start getting value out of them at the end of it. >> Is there a common theme, you mentioned a number of different verticals, telco, healthcare, financial services. Is there a common theme, that you're seeing among these organizations across verticals? >> ^There is. I mean, everyone has their own approach, like the type of technique that they're going to get the most value out of. But the common theme is really that everyone seems to have a really good handle on experimentation. They have a lot of very brig data scientists, model developers that are able to take their data and out of it, but where they're all looking to get, get our help or looking for help, is to put those models into production. So ML ops, right. So how do I take what's been built on, on somebody's machine and put that into production in a repeatable way. And then once it's in production, how do I monitor it? What am I looking for as triggers to indicate that I need to retrain and how do I iterate on this sequentially and rapidly applying what would really be traditional dev ops software development, life cycle methodologies to ML and AI models. >> So Steve, we're joining you from KubeCon live at the moment. What's, what's the connection with Kubernetes and how does Kubernetes enable machine learning artificial intelligence? How does it enable it and what are some of the special considerations to in mind? >> So the immediate connection for Red Hat, is Red Hat's open shift is basically an enterprise grade Kubernetics. And so the connection there is, is really how we're working with customers and how customers in general are looking to take advantage of all the benefits that you can get from the Kubernetes platform that they've been applying to their traditional software development over the years, right? The, the agility, the ability to scale up on demand, the ability to have shared resources, to make specialized hardware available to the individual communities. And they want to start applying those foundational elements to their AI/Ml practices. A lot of data science work traditionally was done with high powered monolithic machines and systems. They weren't necessarily shared across development communities. So connecting something that was built by a data scientist, to something that then a software developer was going to put into production was challenging. There wasn't a lot of repeatability in there. There wasn't a lot of scalability, there wasn't a lot of auditability and these are all things that we know we need when talking about analytics and AI/ML. There's a lot of scrutiny put on the auditability of what you put into production, something that's making decisions that impact on whether or not somebody gets a loan or whether or not somebody is granted access to systems or decisions that are made. And so that the connection there is really around taking advantage of what has proven itself in kubernetes to be a very effective development model and applying that to AI/ML and getting the benefits in being able to put these things into production. >> Dave: So, so Red Hat has been involved in enterprises for a long time. Are you seeing most of this from a Kubernetes perspective, being net new application environments or are these extensions of what we would call legacy or traditional environments. >> They tend to be net new, I guess, you know, it's, it's sort of, it's transitioned a little bit over time. When we first started talking to customers, there was desire to try to do all of this in a single Kubernetes cluster, right? How can I take the same environment that had been doing our, our software development, beef it up a little bit and have it applied to our data science environment. And over time, like Kubernetes advanced rights. So now you can actually add labels to different nodes and target workloads based on specialized machinery and hardware accelerators. And so that has shifted now toward coming up with specialized data science environments, but still connecting the clusters in that's something that's being built on that data science environment is essentially being deployed then through, through a model pipeline, into a software artifact that then makes its way into an application that that goes live. And, and really, I think that that's sensible, right? Because we're constantly seeing a lot of evolution in, in the types of accelerators, the types of frameworks, the types of libraries that are being made available to data scientists. And so you want the ability to extend your data science cluster to take advantage of those things and to give data scientists access to that those specialized environments. So they can try things out, determine if there's a better way to, to do what they're doing. And then when they find out there is, be able to rapidly roll that into your production environment. >> You mentioned the word acceleration, and that's one of the words that we talk about when we talk about 2020, and even 2021, the acceleration in digital transformation that was necessary really a year and a half ago, for companies to survive. And now to be able to pivot and thrive. What are you seeing in terms of customers appetites for, for adopting AI/ML based solutions? Has it accelerated as the pandemic has accelerated digital transformation. >> It's definitely accelerated. And I think, you know, the pandemic probably put more of a focus for businesses on where can they start to drive more value? How can they start to do more with less? And when you look at systems that are used for customer interactions, whether they're deflecting customer cases or providing next best action type recommendations, AI/ML fits the bill there perfectly. So when they were looking to optimize, Hey, where do we put our spend? What can help us accelerate and grow? Even in this virtual world we're living in, AI/ML really floated to the top there, that's definitely a theme that we've seen. >> Lisa: Is there a customer example that you think that you could mention that really articulates the value over that? >> You know, I think a lot of it, you know, we've published one specifically around HCA health care, and this had started actually before the pandemic, but I think especially, it's applicable because of the nature of what a pandemic is, where HCA was using AI/ML to essentially accelerate diagnosis of sepsis, right. They were using it for, for disease diagnoses. That same type of, of diagnosis was being applied to looking at COVID cases as well. And so there was one that we did in Canada with, it's called 'how's your flattening', which was basically being able to track and do some predictions around COVID cases in the Canadian provinces. And so that one's particularly, I guess, kind of close to home, given the nature of the pandemic, but even within Red Hat, we started applying a lot more attention to how we could help with customer support cases, right. Knowing that if folks were going to be out with any type of illness. We needed to be able to be able to handle that case, you know, workload without negatively impacting work-life balance for, for other associates. So we looked at how can we apply AI/ML to help, you know, maintain and increase the quality of customer service we were providing. >> it's a great use case. Did you have a keynote or a session, here at KubeCon CloudNative? >> I did. I did. And it really focused specifically on that whole ML ops and model ops pipeline. It was called involving Kubernetes and bracing model ops. It was for a Kubernetes AI day. I believe it aired on Wednesday of this week. Tuesday, maybe. It all kind of condenses in the virtual world. >> Doesn't it? It does. >> So one of the questions that Lisa and I have for folks where we sit here, I don't know, was it year seven or so of the Dawn of Kubernetes, if I have that, right. Where do you think we are, in this, in this wave of adoption, coming from a Red Hat perspective, you have insight into, what's been going on in enterprises for the last 20 plus years. Where are we in this wave? >> That's a great question. Every time, like you, it's sort of that cresting wave sort of, of analogy, right? That when you get to top one wave, you notice the next wave it's even bigger. I think we've certainly gotten to the point where, where organizations have accepted that Kubernetes can, is applicable across all the workloads that they're looking to put in production. Now, the focus has shifted on optimizing those workloads, right? So what are the things that we need to run in our in-house data centers? What are things that we need, or can benefit from using commodity hardware from one of the hyperscalers, how do we connect those environments and more effectively target workloads? So if I look at where things are going to the future, right now, we see a lot of things being targeted based on cluster, right? We say, Hey, we have a data science cluster. It has characteristics because of X, Y, and Z. And we put all of our data science workloads into that cluster. In the future, I think we want to see more workload specific, type of categorization of workloads so that we're able to match available hardware with workloads rather than targeting a workload at a specific cluster. So a developer or data scientist can say, Hey, my particular algorithm here needs access to GPU acceleration and the following frameworks. And then it, the Kubernetes scheduler is able to determine of the available environments. What's the capacity, what are the available resources and match it up accordingly. So we get into a more dynamic environment where the developers and those that are actually building on top of these platforms actually have to know less and less about the clusters they're running on. It just have to know what types of resources they need access to. >> Lisa: So sort of democratizing that. Steve, thank you for joining Dave and me on the program tonight, talking about the traction that you're seeing with AI/ML, Kubernetes as an enabler, we appreciate your time. >> Thank you. >> Thanks Steve. >> For Dave Nicholson. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCube live from Los Angeles KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 21. We'll be right back with our next guest. (subtle music playing) >> Lisa: I have been in the software and technology industry for over 12 years now. So I've had the opportunity as a marketer to really understand and interact with customers across the entire buyer's journey. Hi, I'm Lisa Martin and I'm a host of theCube. Being a host on the cube has been a dream of mine for the last few years. I had the opportunity to meet Jeff and Dave and John at EMC World a few years ago and got the courage up to say, Hey, I'm really interested in this. I love talking with customers...

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: Live from San Diego, California, it's theCUBE covering Kubecon and CloudNative Con brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to the Kubecon CloudNative Con here in San Diego. I'm Stu Miniman and my co-host is Justin Warren. And one of the things we always love to do is really dig in to some of the customer use cases. And joining us to do that, Andrey Rybka, who's the head of Compute Architecture and the CTO Office at Bloomberg. Andrey, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you. >> All right, so just to set the stage, last year we had your colleague Steven Bauer, came, talked about your company's been using Kubernetes for a number of years. You're a member of the CNCF as one of those end users there and you're even an award winner. So, congratulations on all the process. You've been doing if for years, so all the problems, I'm sure are already solved, so now we just have a big party, right? >> Yes, well I'm mean certainly we are at the stage where things are quite mature and there's a lot of workloads that are running Kubernetes. We run Kubernetes on-premises. Steven has an excellent data sense platform that does machine learning with GPUs and bare metal. We also have a really excellent team that runs basically Platform as a Service, generic Platform as a Service, not GPUs but effectively runs any kind of stateless app or service and that's been extremely successful and, you know there's a lot interest in that. And we also run Kubernetes in Public Cloud. So, a lot of workloads for like Bloomberg.com, actually are backed now by Kubernetes. >> Yeah, so we want to spend a bunch of time talking about the applications, the data, the services, that you've built some PaaS's there. Yes, so step us back for a second if you would, and give us the, What led to Kubernetes? And as you said, you've got your on-premises environment, you've got Public Cloud, where was that when you started and what's the role of Kubernetes and that today? >> Sure, we started back in 2015, evaluating all kinds of sort of container orchestration platforms. It's very clear that developers love containers for its portability and just the ability to have the same environments that runs kind of on-premises or on your laptop and runs on the actual deployment environment, the same thing, right? So, we looked at Mesos, Marathon, Cloud Foundry, even OpenShift before it was Kubernetes. And we, in no specific order continuously evaluate all different options and once we make a decision, we recommend to the engineering team and work in partnership with engineers. So all of those awards and everything, actually I want to say, that this is really a kudos to our engineering team. We just a small part of the puzzle. Now as far as like how we made the Kubernetes selection, it was a bit risky. We started with a pre-alpha version and you know I read the Borg paper, how Google actually did Borg. And when I sort of realized, well they're trying to do the same thing with Kubernetes. It was very clear, this is kind of, you know we're going to build on mature experience, right. So, some what it was risky but also a safe bet because you know there was some good computer science and engineering behind the product. So we started alpha version, they're consumer web groups actually were one of the first deployments of there kind of Kubernetes and they present them at the first Kubecon. It was an excellent talk on how we did Kubernetes and you know we came a long way since then. We've got sort of now, probably about 80 to 100 clusters running and you know, they run full high availability, DR -1. I would say it is one of the most reliable environments that we have, you know. We have frequently, you know infrastructure outages, hypervisors, you know, obviously hardware fails, which is normal, and we rarely see any issues and actually you know no like any major issues whatsoever. So, the things we expected out of Kubernetes, the things like reliability, elastic infrastructure, auto-scaling, the multi-tenancy it all worked out. Higher density of sort of packing the nodes, you know that's another great sort of value add that we expected but now we finally realizing that. >> So, one question I've had from a lot of customers, particularly traditional enterprises who are used to doing things and have a lot of virtual machine infrastructure. They're looking at Kubernetes but they're finding it somewhat opaque, a little bit scary. Talk us through, How did you convince the business that this was the choice that we should make and that we need to change the way that we're developing applications and deploying applications and we want to do this with Kubernetes? How did you convince them that this was going to be okay in the end? >> Yes, yes, that's a really good question. A lot of people were scared and you know they were, is this going to break things or you know is this just a shiny new thing. And there was a lot of education that had to occur. We've shown a lot of POCs now. The way we exposed Kubernetes was not just like raw Kubernetes. We actually wanted to keep it safe, so we sort of stayed away from some, like more alpha type of workloads and moved towards kind of like the more stable things. And so, we exposed it Platform as a Service. So, the developers did not actually get to necessarily like kubectl you know, apply a config and just deploy the app. We actually had a really good sort of offering where we had kind of, almost like Git-flow kind of environment where you have, you know your source control, then you have CICD pipeline and then once it goes through all those check and balances, you deploy your containers. So from that perspective, we actually hid quite a bit of things that made things a bit dangerous or potentially a little bit more complicated. And that's proven to be the right strategy because right now as far as the reliability I would say this is probably one of the most reliable environments that we have. And this is by design, you know. We basically tell the developers, by default you're supposed to run at least two replicas at least two Data Centers by default or two, you know, regions or two availability zones, and you can't change that. There's some people who are asking me like can I just deploy just in one Data Center, I'm like, I'm sorry, no. Like by default its like that. And auto-scaling on so if one Data Center goes and you need DR -1, so if you started with two minimum replicas then it auto-scales to four or whatever that will be set. So, you know, I think we've basically put a prototype of a proof of concept relatively fast. And We've got with the initial Platform as a Service, you know from zero to actual delivery in about three months. A lot of building blocks were there and we just put kind of the pieces of the puzzle together. >> All right, that does echo a lot of the discussion that was at had in the keynote today, even was about looking at making Kubernetes easier to consume, essentially by having all of these sensible defaults like you mentioned. You will have two replicas. It will run in these two different zones. And kind of removing some of that responsibility for those decisions from the developers. >> Andrey: Yes. >> How does that line up with the idea of DevOps which seems to be partly about making the developers a bit more responsible for their service and how it runs in production. It sounds like you've actually taken a lot of that effort away from them by, we've done all this work for you so you don't have to think about that anymore. >> I mean a little bit of background, we have about 5,500 engineers. So, expecting everybody to learn DevOps and Kubernetes is not realistic, right? And most developers really want to write applications and services that add business value, right? Nobody wants to really manage networking at the lower level, you know there's a lot of still complexity in this environment, right? So, you know, as far as DevOps, we've built shared kind of teams that have basically like, think of like centralized SRE teams that build the core platform components. We have a world class kind of software infrastructure group which builds those type of components. On top of the sort of, the technology infrastructure team that caters to the hardware and the virtualization infrastructure built on OpenStack. So you know, there is very much kind of a lot of common services/shared services teams that build that as a platform to developers and that is how we can scale. Because, you know, it's very hard to do that if every team is just sort of duplicating each one of those things. >> So Andrey, let's talk a little bit about your application portfolio. >> Andrey: Sure. >> Bloomberg must have thousands of applications out there. >> Andrey: Yes, yes. >> From what you were describing, is this only for kind of net new applications. If I want to use it I have to build something new, replacing something else or, or can you walk us through kind of what percentage is on this platform today and how is that migration or transition? >> And some is not net new, we actually did port quite a bit of the sort of the classic Bloomberg services that developers expect to the platform. And it's seamless to the developers. So, we've been doing quite a bit of sort of Linux migration meaning from like things like Solaris, AIX, and this platform was built purposefully to help developers to migrate their services. Now, they're not sort of lift and shift type of migrations. You can't just expect the, you know classic C++ shared memory app suddenly like jump and start being in containers, right? So there is some architectural changes, differences that had to be done. The type of applications that we see, you know, they're just sort of microservices oriented. Bloomberg has been around since 1981 and they've been doing service-oriented architecture since like early 90s. So, you know, things were already kind of in services kind of framework and mentality. And before, you know we had service matches, Bloomberg had its own kind of paradigm of service matches. So, all we do is kind of retro-fit the same concepts with new frameworks. And what we did is we brought in sort of like a new mentality of open source first. So, most new systems that we built, we look for kind of what about if you know, we look for open source components that can fit in this particular problem set. So there applications that we have right now, we have quite a bit of data services, data transformation pipelines, machine learning, you know, there's quite a bit of the machine learning as far as like the actual learning part of training, and then there is the inference part that runs quite a bit. We have quite a few of accounting services, like, I mentioned Bloomberg.com, and many sort of things that you would normally think of like accounting delivery services that run on Kubernetes. And I mean, at this point, we certainly try to be a little bit conscious about stateful services, so we don't run as much of databases and things like that. Eventually, we will get there once we prove the reliability and resiliency around the stateful set in Kubernetes. >> Yeah, do you have an estimate internal or goals as to what percentage your applications are on this platform now and a roadmap going forward? >> I mean, it's hard to say but going forward, I see majority of all services migrating to Kubernetes because for us, Kubernetes is become an essentially standardized compute fabric. You know, one thing that we've been missing, you know, a lot of open source projects deliver, you know virtualized infrastructure. But, you know, that's not quite enough, right. You need other sort of concepts to be there and Kubernetes did deliver that for us. And more importantly, it also delivered us kind of a, almost like a multi-cloud strategy, you know, kind of accidentally because, you know none of the cloud providers have any standard APIs of any source, right? Like, so even if use Terraform, that's not necessarily multi-cloud, it's just like you got to write HCO for each cloud provider. In Kubernetes, more or less, that becomes kind of a really solved problem. >> So which, what flavor of Kubernetes are you using? Do you leverage any of the services from the Public Cloud on Kubernetes? >> Yeah, I mean, excellent question. So, you know we want to leverage managed offerings as much as possible because things like patch and the security of you know, CVE's, and things like that, I want somebody to take care of that for me and harden things, and out of the box. So, the key to our multi-cloud strategy is use managed offering but based on open source software. So if you want to deploy services, deploy them on Kubernetes as much as possible. If you want to use databases, use manage database but based on the open source software, like Postgres, or MySQL. And that makes it affordable, right, to an extent, I mean, there's going to be some slight differences, but I do believe that managed is better than if I'm going to go and bootstrap VM's and manage my own control plane and the workers and things like that. >> Yeah, and it is a lot of additional work that I think organizations genuinely did try to roll their own and do everything themselves. There's a lot more understanding since the advent of cloud essentially that actually making someone else do this for what is essentially the undifferentiated heavy lifting. If you can get someone else to do that for you, >> Andrey: Absolutely >> it's a much better experience. Which is actually what you've built with the Kubernetes services for your developers. You are becoming that managed service for your app developers. I think a few enterprise organizations have tried to do that a little bit with centralized IT. They haven't quite got that service mentality there where I'm the product owner and I need to create something which my developers find is valuable to use so that they want to use it. >> This is exactly spot on. When I joined Bloomberg six years ago, one of the things we wanted to do is effectively offer a Public Cloud like services on-premises and now we're there. We actually have a lot of managed offerings whether you want Kafka as a service, queuing as a service, or you know, cache as a service, or even Kubernetes but not necessarily we want to expose Kubernetes as a service, we want to expose Platform as a Service. So, you hit the nail on the head because effectively developers want kind of the same things that they see in the Public Cloud. I want you know, function as a service, I want lambda something like this. Well, that's a type of Platform as a Service. So, you're spot on. >> Yeah, Andrey, last question I have for you. You know, you talked about the maturity of the managed offerings there, something we've seen a lot this year is the companies that, How am I going to manage across, you know, various environments? There we saw, you know, Microsoft with Azure, or VMware with Honzu, what do you think of that? Is that something that interests you or anything else in the ecosystem that you still think needs to mature to help your business? >> Sure, sure, I mean, I think that the use cases they're trying to address are definitely near and dear to my heart. Because we are trying to be multi-cloud. And in order to be truly mature multi-cloud sort of company, we need to have sort of mature kind of multi-cloud control plane. That has kind of the deployment address, ACD pipeline address than it need to address security, not just day one but day two, a load and monitoring and all of you know, if I were just to have three different portals to look at, it is very complicated, you're going to miss things. I want one pane of glass, right. So, what this company is addressing is extremely important and I see a lot of value in it. Now from my point of view, in general, what we prefer if it was an open source project that we could contribute and we could collaborate on, we still want to pay money for the support and what not, we don't want to just be free riders, right? But if it's an open source product and we can be part of it, it's not just read-only open source, that is definitely something that I would be very much interested in participating. And majority of the developers that we have are very happy to participate in open source. I think you seen some of our contributors here. We have some people contributing to Kubeflow. There's many other projects, we have quite a bit of cube projects like the case engineering with powerfulseal. If somebody wants to check it out, we've got some really interesting things. >> Andrey, really appreciate you sharing what you and your engineering teams are doing. >> Thank you. >> Thank you for all the contributions back to the community. >> Yep. >> For Justin Warren, I'm Stu Miniman back with more of our three day wall to wall coverage here at KubeCon CloudNative Con. Thank you for watching theCube. (dramatic music)

>> Announcer: Live from Seattle Washington, it's the Cube covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon, North America, 2018. Brought to you by Redhat, the CloudNative Computing Foundation, and it's ecosystem's partners. (techno music) >> Okay welcome back everyone. We are live in Seattle for KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2018, Cube's live coverage three days. Day one of a full house event here, through 8,000 people, doubled from last year, I'm John Furrier for Stu Miniman. Our next two guests are from Red Hat. Great to have these guys as our guests, as also thank Red Hat for being great sponsors. Brian "Redbeard" Harrington, Cube Alumni Back Product Manager of Service Mesh at Red Hat, and William Oliveria, Product Manager Serverless at Red Hat, we'll hear a lot about that. You guys, first of all, thanks for coming on, and thanks to your company Red Hat, for being a great supporter of the Cube and the community, the contribution you guys have helped up make, we really appreciate that. Thank you. >> Absolutely delighted to be here. >> Happy to be here. >> John Furrier: Alright, so let's get into it. So service meshes are hot because now Kubernetes is kind of like, we're seeing that is totally stabilized, and now you start to see the engineering, and the value creation happening in layers. Shim layers they call here, I got state-full applications. So you're starting to see service meshes conceptually adopt. Give us a quick update on where that is, how real is it, what's the progress, and what's some of the state-of-the-art activities around it? >> [Brian "Redbeard" Harrington] Well the beautiful thing is, using a service mesh is not anything new at all. I mean, that was really built to top the Netflix OSS ideas. They've been around for seven, eight years now. It's really just kind of decomposing what were a bunch of individual libraries that you had to implement into more infrastructure services, so that you know that you just, regardless of the language, environment, etc., you've always got a certain base platform ready to go. >> John Furrier: Is Service Mesh going to be a standard thing? Is it going to be, service meshes of your flavor, is there going to be certain instances custom services? How do you see that coming out with CSDO, Knative? There's things evolving. >> [Brian "Redbeard" Harrington] Mmhm, yeah. >> What's the state there, is that going to be the new normal, or is it going to see settling? What's your view on that? >> [Brian "Redbeard" Harrington] I think to some extent, it depends on the scale that you're at. If you are at the scale of Yelp or Stripe, one of those, and using Envoy, you already have a good idea of what that mesh is going to look like, so you're building that control plain, in the way that you need it. Where Istio and Linker D and some of the other ones come in, is when you are a smaller scale and you need to figure out what you're control plane is going to look like, that's where it really shines, because it gives you something that you can just start using and has some training wheels on it to make sure that you've got a stable platform to use from day one. >> Stu Miniman: So one of the other news items today I wanted to get your opinion on is, EtsyD has been handed over to Linux Foundation and CNCF, so EtsyD came out of CoreOS of course, which was acquired by Red Hat. Give us a little bit of the update as to why that happened and why it's a good thing for the community. >> So I think for any stable platform, it's really been the theme of what I've been talking about, you've got to know that it's safe to use the software, that there's going to be a longer term vision, and a lot of community guidance around that, and that's why Red Hat made the contribution. When we were at CoreOS, we really wanted to, and it was something that was ultimately a goal, but it kind of became a little bit of a race condition. Do we go ahead and contribute it, and then hope that other folks will join us in building it? Just by open sourcing it, we saw some contributions from IBM around PowerPC architecture and Maso's, and other groups coming in, but putting it just full-bore in the CNCF really guarantees that there will be ongoing community collaboration. >> John Furrier: Just to give a shout out to you guys at CoreOS, you guys did an amazing job, and I think this is a benefit of the Red Hat relationship, because that's the start up dilemma you have, do we get it in there, how do we support it, how do we make it better, is it competitive, was our focus what we optimized it for? But now with the Red Hat piece you guys should lean back, and do the right thing and get it in there with the right resource push, is that kind of how it's evolving, because that seems like what's-- >> It absolutely is. This goes beyond just EtsyD. The really rad thing is that I think it's safe to say that there is no part of the CoreOS portfolio that really isn't getting open sourced. You can kind of read into that what you will but, it meant that there was no technology that was getting left behind, nad that our users who really felt passionately about pieces of software, again, we're going to be able to have that utility. >> Stu Miniman: I think it goes back, we've been at Red Hat summits for many years and Red Hat is a hundred percent open sourced, it must be, and even I go back to Polvey and yourself and Brandon, all of the tools at CoreOS were creating is, they were all going to be open sourced tools that you will be involved in. I guess William, a good point to bring you into the conversation, Serverless, and fully open source, if not been have you thought about it at least for the last couple of years so, before we get into the Knative, give us the Red Hat positioning, where does Serverless fit into the architecture? And then we'd love to tease out all of the Knative discussion. >> Absolutely. For us, Serverless then is a lot about the user experience, and how we can simplify how developers can leverage technology such as Itsiu and service meshes and everything around the developer experience on top of Kuberneties. Serverless can deliver that and a lot of what we believe is that, it should not be then tied too much to functions because we can do that for functions, but we can do that for any class of applications actually running on top of the platform, and that's a lot of why we believe that Knative is this powerful interesting project going on out there right now. We already have all these different players collaborating, which is fantastic for inter-oper ability, we make sure that we can leverage that implementation on different platforms, we can run that anywhere pretty much on top of Kuberneties, and that's a big goal, to make sure that you can plug all these different parts as part of a consistent user experience there. >> Stu Miniman: Okay so we had the cube at the Google event this summer when it was announced I was at Serverless conference this year and to be honest, a lot of people were kind of scratching their heads trying to understand. Okay, Serverless and Kuberneties are going together but I'm not sure I quite get it? Give us the update where are we, when does this get baked into platforms, what can I do today, where do I learn more? >> Today, what we are offering is the three big modules as part of Knative are built, events, and serving. So it's the basic capabilities for you to build a serverless platform that, can again, work on any kind of application, not only functions, and we are at that stage. The project is very new, we are still in 0.2 release, at this point, so there's a lot of missing parts around user experience and what-not, but we are getting there, and that's where most of the focus is going on right now. But with something like events, that's a perfect opportunity for example, to integrate with all the different services we have available, let's say on Service Catalog, or through the operator's framework, for example, to connect to the applications that you are building on top of Kuberneties. That was part of the things that was missing to connect the dots when your implementing those applications, how are you going to consume events, how are you going to consume services, how those applications are going to scale? That's a lot of what we're addressing with Knative right now. >> What's the big walk away around the current event here at KubeCon? We hear maturity, great, check. A lot of people are fine in their swim lanes or whatever, their value layer, check. Clear a lot more gaps things white space start to appear, when that visibility lifts. What do you guys see the opportunities for the community, and you guys, certainly one of the big players, Red Hat, leading the way, as this ecosystem is, I mean companies I've never heard of, coming out of the woodwork. This is vibrant! There are opportunities for people to kind of, play in these white spaces. Do you guys have any thoughts on where you could give guidance to where people could jump in and create value? >> Well, there's two areas that are really fascinating to me. One is the fact that now that Kuberneties has gotten to the level of boarding infrastructure, it means that there are a lot more companies that are really comfortable saying, "we're building a top that, we don't care about what the compute layer is, because we just know". So you see a lot of organizations that are coming in, because they want to collaborate with other organizations, and see how they're using it to cross pollinate and get new ideas. That's why you've got full retail companies like Nordstrom here, that are the local band in town, and they're happy to come and show off, and you've also got a lot of, to the second piece of that, emerging companies that are finding areas, white space that we didn't consider as the incumbance in the space, and they're providing direct value. I think that as we have seen a lot more acquisitions coming through the space, there is going to be a lot of opportunity for the organization that has that five, ten, fifty million dollar idea to come in, build it quickly, know that it works on top of Kuberneties, and then be able to port it to Enterprise software that runs on a local cluster or across clouds. >> John Furrier: So new business model innovations are coming out of it as well., hence opportunities. It's okay to have a fifty million dollar business. >> Yes. >> Not bad, and could be acquired as well, some other value there. Okay, Microservice is hard to manage. Guys, talk about this dynamic. This is one of the things you guys really work hard to address, I know. We hear a lot about it. Porting to Microservice, "Hey, I'm in Enterprise! We should move from our Red Hat Linux implementation, to full cloud, and then it's going to go all the way to Microservices." Well, what the hell is Microservices? So again, this is kind of like, well I'm not saying that they're thinking that way, but this is not that easy. How do you guys make it easier? What are some of the speed bumps that customers hit? And what are the things to overcome those? What's your view on that? >> [William Oliveria] I'll talk about, first of all, how Knative is contributing to that. Again, the whole thing that we're talking about, not being tied to functions is because again, I want to leverage the serverless capabilities available in the platform for Microservices as well. And whenever you're talking about monitoring, tracing, observe-abilities, Istio comes into play, and solved that problem and connect all those different Microservices in a very nice way. With Knative, things we can improve on the user experience, so you can do that in a very easy way, when you are coming from this brown field applications when you are migrating to the cloud, when you are trying to port those applications, it's a big learning curve. You got to learn about all these different technologies. So if you can improve that user experience, so you can do what you do best, which is focus on your code, and then we can take care of a lot the complexities of building and wiring together all these different parts on the platform. We'll do that. And that's a lot of what we are doing with serverless. >> That's where the manage piece comes in, right? >> [William Oliveria] Right. >> And then the monitoring, that part of it to? >> Yeaa, well to build on top of that, there is the organizations that want to still design things the way that they've been doing it. And we've had a big focus with a project called Red Hat OpenShift Application Runtimes, or RHOAR, which it goes more in the direction of the past concept, which is a big difference between OpenShift and TechTonic, for example, and through that, a lot of the RHOAR bundles for Python and Java and Node.js kind of integrate in the concepts of distributed tracing and permethius monitoring and things like that, to make sure that you focus, again, to William's point, on building the thing that brings yuour business value and standing on the shoulders of software at the infrastructure level. >> That's great stuff and it's a lot more work to do. >> Yeah, just the last thing, I know Red Hat's been working on trying to, I don't know if you call it "templatize", but how do I make it easier for people to, I'm trying to remember the name of the term for it. >> Yeah, so it's the OpenShift Application Runtime. Having what used to be the gear in the old OpenShift realm. Which is just here is a great template, a package to start from, so that you can go in and implement the things that you care about, and really step then into, the "Okay, we know that the code's going to work okay, because we built that, we know the application platform is going to be predictable, we know that we have all of these additional hooks to manage it." So hopefully, it lowers the bar, to make it trivial to get started. >> That's awesome. Well, Redbeard and William, thanks for coming on the Cube, really appreciate it. Just quick plug, what's up next for you guys? What's on the horizon? What itch are you scratching these days? What's getting you motivated? >> The big things that's exciting for me is the fourth coming release of OpenShift 4.0, which gives me the room to shine on the GA release of all the service mesh stuff. And then, kind of in parallel, just a lot of the vector packet processing, FITO, high scale networking stuff just sends a tingle up my spine. I love keeping an eye on that >> For me we just announced a review of Knative and OpenShift as an add-on. You can just install and run that when you're on OpenShift, and like what Redbeard said, I'm looking forward for 4.0 as well, to make sure that I could plug that user experience on top of 4.0 and we are already doing a lot for the ops side, and I'd like to do that also now for our developers as well. >> Well when you're ready, we'll pop a digital cork on Twitter, let us know, we'll certainly cover it. Thanks for coming out, appreciate the insight. >> We'll bring you the insights and all the data here at KubeCon CloudNative. Of course we're the Cube, don't be confused with KubeCon, on one of our conferences coming. But only kidding, we're not going to have that. Thanks for watching day one, live coverage. Stay with us for more coverage after this short break. (techno music)