foreign welcome back to thecube's coverage of AWS re invent 2022 I'm John Furrier host of thecube we've got a great conversation with Patrick Coughlin vice president of go to market strategy and specialization at Splunk we're talking about the open cyber security schema framework also known as the ocsf a joint strategic collaboration between Splunk and AWS it's got a lot of traction momentum Patrick thanks for coming on thecube for reinvent coverage John great to be here I'm excited for this you know I love this open source movement and open source continues to add value almost sets the standards you know we were talking at the cncf Linux Foundation this past fall about how standards are coming out of Open Source not so much the the classic standards groups but you start to see the developers voting with their code groups deciding what to adopt to fact those standards and security is a real key part of that where data becomes key for resilience and this has been the top conversation at re invent and all around the industry is how to make data a key part of building into cyber resilience so I want to get your thoughts about the problem that you see that's emerging that you guys are solving with this group kind of collaboration around the ocsf yeah well look John I I think I think you you've already you've already hit the high notes there uh data is proliferating across the Enterprise uh the attack surface area is rapidly expanding the threat landscape is Ever Changing uh you know we we just had a a lot of uh uh scares around openssl before that we had vulnerabilities and Confluence in atlassian and you go back to log 4J and solarwinds before that um and challenges with the supply chain uh in this year in particular we've had a huge acceleration in in concerns and threat vectors around uh operational technology in our customer base alone we saw a huge uptick you know in double digit percentage of customers that we're concerned about the traditional vectors like like ransomware uh like business email compromise phishing but also from Insider threat and others um so you've got this this highly complex Flex environment where data continues to proliferate and flow through new applications new infrastructure new Services driving different types of outcomes in the digitally transformed Enterprise of today and and what happens there is is our customers particularly in security are left with having to stitch all of this together and they're trying to get visibility across multiple different Services infrastructure applications across a number of different point solutions that they've bought to help them protect defend detect and respond better and it's a massive Challenge and uh you know when our when our customers come to us they are often looking for ways to drive more consolidation uh across a variety of different solutions they're looking to drive better outcomes in terms of speed to detection how do I detect faster how do I find the thing that when banging in the night faster um how do I then fix it quickly and then how do I layer in some automation so hopefully I don't have to do it again now the Challenger that really ocf ocsf helps to to solve is to do that effectively to detect and to respond to the speed at which attackers are demanding today we have to have normalization of data across this entire landscape of tools infrastructure Services we have to have integration to have visibility um and these tools have to work together but the biggest barrier to that is often data is stored in different structures and in different formats across different solution providers across different tools that are that are that our customers are using um and that that lack of data normalization chokes the integration problem and so um you know several years ago a number of very smart people in this position this was a initiative started by Splunk and AWS came together and said look we as an industry have to solve this for our customers we have to start to shoulder this burden for our customers we can't we can't make our customers have to be systems integrators that's not their job our job is to help make this easier for them and so ocsf was born and over the last couple of years um we've built out this this collaboration to not just be AWS and Splunk uh but over uh 50 different organizations um uh um cloud service providers solution providers in the cyber security space have come together and said let's decide on a single unified schema for how we're going to represent event data in this industry um and uh I'm very proud to be here today to say that we've launched it and and um uh I can't wait to see where we go next yeah I mean this is really compelling I mean there's so much packed in that in that statement I mean data normalization you mentioned chokes this the the solution and the integration as you call it but really also it's like data is not just stored in silos it may not even be available right so if you don't have availability of data that's an important Point number two you mentioned supply chain there's physical supply chain is coming up big time at re invent this time as well as in open source the software supply chain so you now have the perimeter has been dead for multiple years we've been talking about that for years everybody knows that but now combined with the supply chain problem both physical and software there's so much more to go on and so you know the leaders in the industry they're not sitting on their hands they know this but they're just overloaded so so how do leaders deal with this right now before we get into the ocsf I want to just get your thoughts on what's the psychology of the of the business leader who's facing this landscape yeah well I mean unfortunately too many leaders feel like they have to face these trade-offs between you know how and where they are really focusing cyber resilience investments in the business um and and often there is a siled approach across security I.T developer operations or engineering rather than the ability to kind of Drive visibility integration and and connection of outcomes across those different functions I mean the truth is the Telemetry that that you get from an application for application performance monitoring or infrastructure monitoring is often incredibly valuable when there's a security incident and vice versa some of the security data um that you may see in a security operations center can be incredibly valuable when trying to investigate a performance degradation in an application and understanding where that may come from and so what we're seeing is this data layer is collapsing faster than the org charts are or the budget line items are in the Enterprise and so at Splunk here you know we believe security resilience is is fundamentally a data problem and one of the things that we do often is is actually help connect the dots for our customers and bring our customers together across the silos they may have internally so that they can start to see a holistic picture of what resilience means for their Enterprise and how they can drive faster detection outcomes and more automation coverage you know we recently had an event called super cloud we're going into the next gen kind of a cloud how data and security are all kind of part of this next-gen applications not just SAS and we had a panel that was titled the innovators dilemma kind of talk about getting some of the challenges and one of the panelists said it's not the innovators dilemma it's the integrators dilemma and you mentioned that earlier I think this is a key point right now integration is so critical not having the data and putting pieces together and now open source is becoming a composability market and I think having things snap together and work well it's a platform system conversation not a tool conversation so I really want to get into where the ocsf kind of intersects with this area people are working on it's not just solution Architects or cloud cloud native sres especially where devsecops is so this this intersection is critical how does ocsf integrate into that integration of the data making that available to make machine learning and automation smarter and more relevant right right well look I mean I I think that's a fantastic question because you know we talk about we use buzzwords like machine learning and AI all the time and you know I I know they're all over the place here at reinvented and and um there's so much promise and hope out there around these Technologies and these Innovations however uh machine learning AI is only as effective as the data is clean and normalized uh and and we will not realize the promise of these Technologies for outcomes in resilience unless we have better ways to normalize data upstream and better ways to integrate that data to the downstream tools where detection and response is happening and so ocsf was really about the industry coming together and saying this is no longer the job of our customers we are going to create a unified schema that represents the an event that we will all bite down on even some of us are competitors you know this is this is that that no longer matters because at the point the point is how do we take this burden off of our customers and how do we make the industry safer together um and so 15 initial members came together um along with AWS and Splunk to to start to create that uh that initial schema and standardize it and if you've ever you know if you ever worked with a bunch of technical grumpy security people it's kind of hard to drive consensus about around just about anything but uh um but I'm really happy to see how quickly this this organization Has Come Together has open sourced the schema um and and just as you said like I think this this unlocks the potential for real Innovation that's going to be required to keep up with the bad guys but right now is getting stymied and held back by the lack of normalization and the lack of integration I've always said Splunk was a it's AIDS data for breakfast lunch and dinner and turns it into insights and I think you bring up The Silo thing what's interesting is the cross company sharing I think this hits point on so I see this as a valuable opportunity for the industry what's the traction on that because you know to succeed it does take a village takes a community of security practitioners and and Architects and developers to kind of coalesce around this de facto movement has been has been uptake been good that's attraction can you share your thoughts on how this is translating across companies yeah absolutely I mean look I I think um cyber security has a long track record of of Standards development um there's been some fantastic standards recently things like um sticks and taxi for threat intelligence there's been things like the you know the minor attack framework coming out of my miter and and the adoption the traction that we've seen with attack in particular has been amazing to watch how that has kind of roared onto the scene in the last couple of years and has become table Stakes for um how you do security operations and incident response um and you know I think with ocsf we're going to see something similar here but you know we are in literally the first Innings of of this um so right now you know we're architecting this into our um into every part of our sort of back end systems here at spelunk I know um our collaborators at AWS and elsewhere are doing it too and so I think it starts with bringing this standard now the standard exists on a uh you know in schema format um and there's you know Confluence and jira tickets around it how do we then sort of build this into the code of of the the collaborators that have been leading the way on this and you know it's not going to happen overnight but I think in the coming quarters you'll start to see this schema um be the standard um across the leaders in this space companies like Splunk and AWS and others who are leading the way and often that's what helps Drive adoption of a standard is if you can get the big dogs so to speak to to embrace it and you know there's no bigger one than AWS and I think there's no no more important one than Splunk in the cyber security space and so as we adopt this we hope others will follow and like I said we've got over 50 organizations contributing to it today and so um I think we're off to a running start you know it's interesting choking Innovation or having things kind of get get slowed down has really been a problem we've seen successes recently over the past few years like kubernetes has really unlocked and accelerated the cloud native worlds of runtime with containers to kind of have the consensus of the community say hey if you we just do this it gets better I think this is really compelling with the ocsf because if people can come together around this and get unified as well as other the other official standards things can go highly accelerated so I think I think it looks really good and I think it's great initiative and I really appreciate your Insight on that on on your relationship with Amazon okay it's not just the Partnerships it's a strategic collaboration could you share that uh relationship Dynamic how to start how's it going what's strategic about it share to the audience kind of the relationship between Splunk and natives on this important ocsf initiative look I I mean I think this this year marks the the 10th year anniversary that that Splunk and AWS have been collaborating in a variety of different ways um I I think our our companies have um a fantastic and long-standing relationship and we've we've partnered on a number of really important projects together that bring value um obviously to our individual companies uh but also to our shared customers um uh when I think about some of the most important customers at Splunk that I spend a significant amount of time with um uh I I know how many of those are our AWS customers as well and I know how important AWS is to them so I think it's it's a it's a collaboration that is rooted in in a respect for each other's Technologies um and Innovation but also in a recognition that that our shared customers want to see us work better together over time and it's not it's not two companies that have kind of decided in a back room that they should work together it's actually our customers that are that are pushing us and I think we're both very customer-centric organizations and I think that has helped us actually be better collaborators and better Partners together um because we're working back backwards from our customers as security becomes a physical and software approach we've seen the trend where even Steven Schmidt at Amazon web services is the CSO he's not the CSO anymore so why he says well security is also physical stuff too so so lens is now expanded you mentioned supply chain physical digital this is an important inflection point can you summarize in your mind why open cyber security scheme information is important I know the unification but beyond that what why is this so important why should people pay attention to this you know I if if you'll let me be just a little abstract and meta for a second yeah I think what's what's really meaningful at the highest level about the ocsf initiative um and then it goes beyond I think the Tactical value it will provide to to organizations and to customers in terms of making them safer um over the coming years and and decades I think what's more important than that is it's really the one of the first times that you've seen um the industry come together and say we got a problem we need to solve that you know doesn't really have anything to do with with our own economics um our customers are are hurting and yeah some of us may be competitors um uh you know we got different cloud service providers that are participating in this along with AWS we've got different cyber security solution providers participating in this along with spelunk um but but folks have come together and say we can actually solve this problem um if if we're able to kind of put aside our competitive differences in the markets and approach this from the perspective of what's best for information security as a whole um and and I think that's what I'm most proud of uh and and what I hope we can do more of in other places in this industry because I think that kind of collaboration from real Market leaders can actually um change markets it can change the the the trend lines in terms of how we are keeping up with the bad guys and and I'd like to see a lot more of that and we're seeing a lot more new kind of things emerging in the cloud next kind of this next Generation architecture and alcohol thumbs are happening I think it's interesting you know we always talk about sustainability supply chain sustainability about making the earth a better place but you're hitting on this this meta point about businesses are under threat of going under I mean we want to keep businesses to businesses to be sustainable not just you know the the environment so if a business goes out of business which the threats here are can be catastrophic for companies I mean there is there is a community responsibility to protect businesses so they can sustain and stay stay producing this is a real key point yeah yeah I mean look I think I think one of the things that you know we We complain a lot in in cyber security about the lack of of talent the talent shortage and cyber security and every year we kind of we kind of uh whack ourselves over the head about how hard it is to bring people into this industry and it's true um but one of the things that I think we forget John is is how important mission is to so many people in what they do for a living and how they work and I think one of the things that cyber security is strongest in information security General and has been for decades is this sense of mission and people work in this industry not because it's it's it's always the the the most lucrative but because it really drives a sense of um Safety and Security in the Enterprises and the fabric of the economy that we use every day to go through our lives and when I think about the sport customers and AWS customers I think about um um the the different products and tools that power my life and and we need to secure them and and sometimes that means coming to work every day at that company and doing your job and sometimes that means working with others better faster and stronger to help drive that level of of maturity and security that this industry needs it's a human it's a human opportunity human problem and and challenge that's a whole other segment the role of the talent and the human machines and with scale Patrick thanks so much for sharing the information and the Insight on the open cyber security schema frame and what it means and why it's important thanks for sharing on thecube really appreciate it thanks for having me John okay this is AWS re invent 2022 coverage here on thecube I'm John Furrier the host thanks for watching foreign [Music]

[Music] welcome to the great super cloud debate a power panel of three top technology industry analysts maribel lopez is here she's the founder and principal analyst at lopez research keith townsend is ceo and founder of the cto advisor and sanjeev mohan is principal at sanjmo super cloud is a term that we've used to describe the future of cloud architectures the idea is that super clouds are built on top of hyperscaler capex infrastructure and the idea is it goes beyond multi-cloud the premise being that multi-cloud is primarily a symptom of multi-vendor or m a or both and results in more stove we're going to talk about that super cloud's meant to connote a new architecture that leverages the underlying primitives of hyperscale clouds but hides and abstracts that complexity of each of their respective clouds and adds new value on top of that with services and a continuous experience a similar or identical experience across more than one cloud people may say hey that's multi-cloud we're going to talk about that as well so with that as brief background um i'd like to first welcome our painless guys thanks so much for coming on thecube it's great to see you all again great to be here thank you to be here so i'm going to start with maribel you know what i just described what's your reaction to that is it just like what like cloud is supposed to be is that really what multi-cloud is do you agree with the premise that multi-cloud has really been you know what like chuck whitten from dell calls it it's been multi-cloud by default i call it a symptom of multi-vendor what's your take on on what this is oh wow dave another term here we go right more more to define for people but okay the reality is i agree that it's time for something new something evolved right whether we call that super cloud or something else i you know i don't want to really debate the term but we need to move beyond where we are today in multi-cloud and into if we want to call it cloud 5 multi-cloud 2 whatever we want to call it i believe that we're at the next generation that we have to define what that next generation is but if you think about it we went from public to private to hybrid to multi and every time you have a discussion with somebody about cloud you spend 10 minutes defining what you're talking about so this doesn't seem any different to me so let's just go with super cloud for the moment and see where we go and you know if you're interested after everybody else makes their comments i got a few thoughts about what super cloud might mean as well yeah great so i and i agree with you when we like i said in a recent post you could call it cl cloud you know multi-cloud 2.0 but it's something different is happening and sanjeev i know you're not a you're not a big fan of buzz words either but i wonder if you could weigh in on this topic uh you mean by the way sanjeev is at the mit cdo iq conference a great conference uh in boston uh and so he's it's a public place so we're going to have i think you viewed his line when he's not speaking please go ahead yeah so you know i come from a pedigree of uh being an analyst of uh firms that love inventing new terms i am not a big fan of inventing new terms i feel that when we come up with a new term i spend all my time standing on a stage trying to define what it is it takes me away from trying to solve the problem so so i'm you know i find these terms to be uh words of convenience like for example big data you know big data to me may not mean anything but big data connotes some of this modern way of handling vast volumes of data that traditional systems could not handle so from that point of view i'm i'm completely okay with super cloud but just inventing a new term is what i have called in my previous sessions tyranny of jargons where we have just too many jargons and uh and they resonate with i.t people they do not resonate with the business people business people care about the problem they don't care about what we and i t called them yeah and i think this is a really important point that you make and by the way we're not trying to create a new industry category per se yeah we leave that to gartner that's why actually i like super cloud because nobody's going to use that no vendor's going to use the term super cloud it's just too buzzy so so but but but it brings up the point about practitioners and so keith i want to bring you in so the what we've talked about and i'll just sort of share some some thoughts on the problems that we see and and get keith get your practitioner view most clouds most companies use multiple clouds we all kind of agree on that i think and largely these clouds operate in silos and they have their own development environment their own operating environment different apis different primitives and the functionality of a particular cloud doesn't necessarily extend to other clouds so the problem is that increases friction for customers increases cost increases security risk and so there's this promise maribel multi-cloud 2.0 that's going to solve that problem so keith my question to you is is is that an accurate description of the problem that practitioners face today do what did i miss and i wonder if you could elaborate so i think we'll get into some of the detail later on why this is a problem specifically around technologies but if we think about it in the abstract most customers have their hands full dealing with one cloud like we'll you know through m a and such and you zoom in and you look at companies that have multiple clouds or multi-cloud from result of mma mna m a activity you'll see that most of that is in silos so organizationally the customer may have multiple clouds but sub orchid silos they're generally a single silo in a single cloud so as you think about being able to take advantage of of tooling across the multicloud of what dave you guys are calling the super cloud this becomes a serious problem it's just a skill problem it's too much capability uh across too many things that look completely different than another okay so dave can i pick up on that please i'd love i was gonna just go to you maribel please chime in here okay so if we think about what we're talking about with super cloud and what keith just mentioned remember when we went to see tcp ip and the whole idea was like how do we get computers to talk to each other in a more standardized way how do we get data to move in a more standardized way i think that the problem we have with multi-cloud right now is that we don't have that so i think that's sort of a ground level of getting us to your super cloud premise is that and and you know google's tried it with anthony's like everybody every hyperscaler has tried their like right one to run anywhere but that abstraction layer you talk about what whatever we want to call it is super necessary and it's sort of the foundation so if you really think about it we've spent like 15 years or so building out all the various components of cloud and now's the time to take it so that cloud is actually more of an operating model versus a place there's at least a base level of it that is vendor neutral and then to your point the value that's going to be built on top of that you know people been trying to commoditize the basic infrastructure for a while now and i think that's what you're seeing in your super cloud multi-cloud whatever you want to call it the infrastructure is the infrastructure and then what would have been traditionally that past layer and above is where we're going to start to see some real innovation but we still haven't gotten to that point where you can do visibility observability manageability across that really complex cloud stack that we have the reason i the reason i love that tcpip example hm is because it changed the industry and it had an ecosystem effect in sanjiv the the the example that i first example that i used was snowflake a company that you're very familiar with that is sort of hiding all that complexity and right and so we're not there yet but please chime in on this topic uh you gotta you gotta view it again uh after you building upon what maribel said you know to me uh this sounds like a multi-cloud operating system where uh you know you need that kind of a common uh set of primitives and layers because if you go in in the typical multi-cloud process you've got multiple identities and you can't have that you how can you govern if i'm if i have multiple identities i don't have observability i don't know what's going on across my different stacks so to me super cloud is that call it single pane of glass or or one way through which i'm unifying my experience my my technology interfaces my integration and uh and i as an end user don't even care which uh which cloud i'm in it makes no difference to me it makes a difference to the vendor the vendor may say this is coming from aws and this is coming from gcp or azure but to the end user it is a consistent experience with consistent id and and observability and governance so that to me makes it a big difference and so one of floyer's contribution conversation was in order to have a super cloud you got to have a super pass i'm like oh boy people are going to love that but the point being that that allows a consistent developer experience and to maribel's earlier point about tcp it explodes the ecosystem because the ecosystem can now write to that super pass if you will those apis so keith do you do do you buy that number one and number two do you see that industries financial services and healthcare are actually going to be on clouds or what we call super clouds so sanjeev hit on a really key aspect of this is identity let's make this real they you love talk about data collaboration i love senji's point on the business user kind of doesn't care if this is aws versus super cloud versus etc i was collaborating with the client and he wanted to send video file and the video file uh his organization's access control policy didn't allow him to upload or share the file from their preferred platform so he had to go out to another cloud provider and create yet another identity for that data on the cloud same data different identity a proper super cloud will enable me to simply say as a end user here's a set of data or data sets and i want to share a collaboration a collaborator and that requires cross identity across multiple clouds so even before we get to the past layer and the apis we have to solve the most basic problem which is data how do we stop data scientists from shipping snowballs to a location because we can't figure out the identity the we're duplicating the same data within the same cloud because we can't share identity across customer accounts or etc we we have to solve these basic thoughts before we get to supercloud otherwise we get to us a turtles all the way down thing so we'll get into snowflake and what snowflake can do but that's what happens when i want to share my snowflake data across multiple clouds to a different platform yeah you have to go inside the snowflake cloud which leads right so i would say to keith's question sanjeev snowflake i think is solving that problem but then he brings up the other problem which is what if i want to share share data outside the snowflake cloud so that gets to the point of visit open is it closed and so sanji chime in on the sort of snowflake example and in maribel i wonder if there are networking examples because that's that's keith's saying you got to fix the plumbing before you get these higher level abstractions but sanji first yeah so i so i actually want to go and talk a little bit about network but from a data and analytics point of view so i never built upon what what keith said so i i want to give an example let's say i am getting fantastic web logs i and i know who uh uh how much time they're spending on my web pages and which pages they're looking at so i have all of that now all of that is going into cloud a now it turns out that i use google analytics or maybe i use adobe's you know analytics uh suite now that is giving me the business view and i'm trying to do customer journey analytics and guess what i now have two separate identities two separate products two separate clouds if i and i as an id person no problem i can solve any problem by writing tons of code but why would i do that if i can have that super pass or a multi-cloud layout where i've got like a single way of looking at my network traffic my customer metrics and i can do my customer journey analytics it solves a huge problem and then i can share that data with my with my partners so they can see data about their products which is a combination of data from different uh clouds great thank you uh maribel please i think we're having a lord of the rings moment here with the run one room to rule them all concept and i'm not sure that anybody's actually incented to do that right so i think there's two levels of the stack i think in the basic we're talking a lot about we don't have the basic fundamentals of how do you move data authenticate data secure data do data lineage all that stuff across different clouds right we haven't even spoken right now i feel like we're really just talking about the public cloud venue and we haven't even pulled in the fact that people are doing hybrid cloud right so hybrid cloud you know then you're talking about you've got hardware vendors and you've got hyperscaler vendors and there's two or three different ways of doing things so i honestly think that something will emerge like if we think about where we are in technology today it's almost like we need back to that operating system that sanji was talking about like we need a next generation operating system like nobody wants to build the cloud mouse driver of the 21st century over and over again right we need something like that as a foundation layer but then on top of it you know there's obviously a lot of opportunity to build differentiation like when i think back on what happened with cloud amazon remained aws remained very powerful and popular because people invested in building things on amazon right they created a platform and it took a while for anybody else to catch up to that or to have that kind of presence and i still feel that way when i talk to companies but having said that i talked to retail the other day and they were like hey we spent a long time building an abstraction layer on top of the clouds so that our developers could basically write once and run anywhere but they were a massive global presence retailer that's not something that everybody can do so i think that we are still missing a gap i don't know if that exactly answers your question but i i do feel like we're kind of in this chicken and egg thing which comes first and nobody wants to necessarily invest in like oh well you know amazon has built a way to do this so we're all just going to do it the amazon way right it seems like that's not going to work either but i think you bring up a really important point which there is going to be no one ring to rule them all you're going to have you know vmware is going to solve its multi-cloud problem snowflake's going to do a very has a very specific you know purpose-built system for it itself databricks is going to do its thing and it's going to be you know more open source i would companies like aviatrix i would say cisco even is going to go out and solve this problem dell showed at uh at dell tech world a thing called uh project alpine which is basically storage across clouds they're going to be many super clouds we're going to get maybe super cloud stove pipes but but the point is however for a specific problem in a set of use cases they will be addressing those and solving incremental value so keith maybe we won't have that single cloud operating you know system but we'll have multiple ones what are your thoughts on that yeah we're definitely going to have multiple ones uh the there is no um there is no community large enough or influential enough to push a design take maribel's example of the mega retailer they've solved it but they're not going to that's that's competitive that's their competitive advantage they're not going to share that with the rest of us and open source that and force that upon the industry via just agreement from everyone else so we're not going to get uh the level of collaboration either originated by the cloud provider originated from user groups that solves this problem big for us we will get silos in which this problem is solved we'll get groups working together inside of maybe uh industry or subgroups within the industry to say that hey we're going to share or federate identity across our three or four or five or a dozen organizations we'll be able to share data we're going to solve that data problem but in the same individual organizations in another part of the super cloud problem are going to again just be silos i can't uh i can't run machine learning against my web assets for the community group that i run because that's not part of the working group that solved a different data science problem so yes we're going to have these uh bifurcations and forks within the super cloud the question is where is the focus for each individual organization where do i point my smart people and what problems they solve okay i want to throw out a premise and get you guys reaction to it because i think this again i go back to the maribel's tcpip example it changed the industry it opened up an ecosystem and to me this is what digital transformation is all about you've got now industry participants marc andreessen says every company is a software company you've now got industry participants and here's some examples it's not i wouldn't call them true super clouds yet but walmart's doing their hybrid thing with azure you got goldman sachs announced at the last reinvent and it's going to take its tools its software its data and which is on-prem and connect that to the aws cloud and actually deliver a service capital one we saw sanjiv at the snowflake summit is is taking their tooling and doing it now granted just within snowflake and aws but i fully expect them to expand that across other clouds these are industry examples capital one software is the name of the division that are now it's to the re reason why i don't get so worried that we're not solving the lord of the rings problem that maribel mentioned is because it opens up tremendous opportunities for companies we got like just under five minutes left i want to throw that out there and see what you guys think yeah i would just i want to build upon what maribel said i love what she said you're not going to build a mouse driver so if multi-cloud supercloud is a multi-cloud os the mouse driver would be identity or maybe it's data quality and to teach point that data quality is not going to come from a single vendor that is going to come from a different vendor whose job is to to harmonize data because there might be data might be for the same identity but it may be a different granularity level so you cannot just mix and match so you need to have some sort of like resolution and that is is an example of a driver for multi-cloud interesting okay so you know octa might be the identity cloud or z scaler might be the security cloud or calibre has its cloud etc any thoughts on that keith or maribel yeah so let's talk about where the practical challenges run into this we did some really great research that was sponsored by one of the large cloud providers in which we took all we looked at all the vmware cloud solutions when i say vmware cloud vmware has a lot of products across multi-cloud now in the rock broadcloud portfolio but we're talking about the og solution vmware vsphere it would seem like on paper if i put vmware vsphere in each cloud that is therefore a super cloud i think we would all agree to that in principle what we found in our research was that when we put hands on keyboard the differences of the clouds show themselves in the training gap and that skills gap between the clouds show themselves if i needed to expose less our favorite friend a friend a tc pip address to the public internet that is a different process on each one of the clouds that needs to be done on each one of the clouds and not abstracted in vmware vsphere so as we look at the nuance yes we can give the big controls but where the capital ones the uh jp morgan chase just spent two billion dollars on this type of capability where the spin effort is done is taking it from that 80 percent to that 90 95 experience and that's where the effort and money is spent on that last mile maribel we're out of time but please you know bring us home give us your closing thoughts hey i think we're still going to be working on what the multi-cloud thing is for a while and you know super cloud i think is a direction of the future of cloud computing but we got some real problems to solve around authentication uh identity data lineage data security so i think those are going to be sort of the tactical things that we're working on for the next couple years right guys always a pleasure having you on the cube i hope we see you around keith i understand you're you're bringing your airstream to vmworld or vmware explorer putting it on the on the floor i can't wait to see that and uh mrs cto advisor i'm sure we'll be uh by your side so looking forward to that hopefully sanjeev and maribel we'll see you uh on the circuit as well yes hope to see you there right looking forward to hopefully even doing some content with you guys at vmware explorer too awesome looking forward all right keep it right there for more content from super cloud 22 right back [Music] you

(upbeat music) >> From the Bellagio Hotel in Las Vegas, It's theCUBE. Covering UiPath FORWARD IV. Brought to you by UiPath. >> Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of UiPath FORWARD IV. Live from the Bellagio, in Las Vegas. I'm Lisa Martin with Dave Vellante. We're here all day today and tomorrow. We're going to talk about process mining next. We've got two guests here. Mike Engel is here, intelligent automation and process intelligence leader at PWC. And Ryan McMahon, the SVP of growth at UiPath. Gentlemen, welcome to the program. >> Thank you, Lisa. >> Thank you. >> So Ryan, I'm going to start with you. Talk to us about process mining. How does UiPath do it differently and what are some of the things being unveiled at this event? >> So look, I would tell you it's actually more than process mining and hopefully, not only you but others saw this this morning with Param. It's really about the full capabilities of that discovery suite. In which, obviously, process mining is part of. But it starts with task capture. So, going out and actually working with subject matter experts on a process. Accounts payable, accounts receivable, order to cash, digitally capturing that process or how they believe it should work or execute across one's environment. Right Mike? And then from there, actually validating or verifying with things or capabilities like process mining. Giving you a full digital x-ray of actually how that process is being executed in the enterprise. Showing you process bottlenecks. For things like accounts payable, showing you days outstanding, maverick buying, so you can actually pin point and do a few things. Fix your process, right? Where process should be fixed. Fix your application because it's probably not doing what you think it is, and then third, and where the value comes, is in our platform of which process mining is a capability, our PA platform. Really moving directly to automations, right? And then, having the ability with even task mining to drill into a specific bottleneck. Capturing keystrokes, clicks, and then moving to, with both of those, process mining and task mining, into Automation Hub, as part of our discovery platform as well. Being able to crowdsource, prioritize, all of those potential, if you will, just capabilities of automations, and saying, "Okay, let's go and prioritize these. These deliver to the greatest value," and executing across them. So, as much as it is about process mining, it's actually the whole entire discovery suite of capabilities that differentiates UiPath from other RPA vendors, as the only RPA vendor that delivers process mining, task mining and this discovery suite as part of our enterprise automation platform. >> Such a critical point, Ryan. I mean, it's multi-dimensional. It's not just one component. It's not just process mining or task mining, it's the combination that's really impactful. Agree with you a hundred percent. >> So, one of the things that people who watch our shows know, I'm like a broken record on this, the early days of RPA, I called it paving the cow path. And that was good because somebody knew the process, they just repeat it. But the problem was, the process wasn't necessarily the best process. As you just described. So, when you guys made the acquisition of ProcessGold, I said, "Okay, now I'm starting to connect the dots," and now a couple years on, we're starting to see that come together. This is what I think is most misunderstood about UiPath, and I wonder, from a practitioner's perspective, if you can sort of fill in some of those gaps. It's that, it's different from a point tool, it's different from a productivity tool. Like Power Automate, I'll just say it, that's running in Azure Cloud, that's cool or a vertically integrated part of some ERP Stack. This is a horizontal play that is end to end. Which is a bigger automation agenda, it's bold but it's potentially huge. $60 billion dollar TAM, I think that's understated. Maybe you could, from a practitioner's perspective, share with us the old way, >> Yeah. >> And kind of, the new way. >> Well obviously, we all made a lot of investments in this space, early on, to determine what should we be automating in the first place? We even went so far as, we have platforms that will transcribe these kind of surveys and discussions that we're having with our clients, right. But at the end of the day all we're learning is what they know about the process. What they as individuals know about the process. And that's problematic. Once we get into the next phase of actually developing something, we miss something, right? Because we're trying to do this rapidly. So, I think what we have now is really this opportunity to have data driven insights and our clients are really grabbing onto that idea, that it's good to have a sense of what they think they do but it's more important to have a sense of what they actually do. >> Are you seeing, in the last year in a half we've seen the acceleration of a lot of things, there's some silver linings but we've also seen the acceleration in automation as a mandate. Where is it? In terms of a priority, that you're seeing with customers, and are there any industries that you're seeing that are really leading the edge here? >> Well I do see it as a priority and of course, in the role that I have, obviously everybody I talk to, it's a priority for them. But I think it's kind of changing. People are understanding that it's not just a sense of, as Ryan was pointing out, it's not just a sense of getting an understanding of what we do today, it's really driving it to that next step of actually getting something impactful out the other end. Clients are starting to understand that. I like to categorize them, there's three types of clients, there's starters, there's stall-ers and those that want to scale. >> Right? So we're seeing a lot more on the other ends of this now, where clients are really getting started and they're getting a good sense that this is important for them because they know that identifying the opportunities in the first place is the most difficult part of automation. That's what's stalling the programs. Then on the other end of the spectrum, we've got these clients that are saying, "Hey, I want to do this really at scale, can you help us do that?" >> (Ryan) Right. >> And it's quite a challenge. >> How do I build a pipeline of automations? So I've had success in finance and accounting, fantastic. How do I take this to operations? How do I take this this to supply chain? How do I take this to HR? And when I do that, it all starts with, as Wendy Batchelder, Chief Data Officer at VMware, would say and as a customer, "It starts with data but more importantly, process." So focusing on process and where we can actually deliver automation. So it's not just about those insights, it's about moving from insights to actionable next steps. >> Right. >> And that is where we're seeing this convergence, if you will, take place. As we've seen it many times before. I mentioned I worked at Cisco in the past, we saw this with Voice Over IP converging on the network. We saw this at VMware, who I know you guys have spoken to multiple times. When a move from a hypervisor to including NSX with the network, to including cloud management and also VSAN for storage, and converging in software. We're seeing it too with process, really. Instead of kids and clipboards, as they used to call it, and many Six Sigma and Lean workshops, with whiteboards and sticky papers, to actually showing people within, really, days how a process is being executed within their organization. And then, suggesting here's where there's automation capabilities, go execute against them. >> So Ryan, this is why sometimes I scoff at the TAM analysis. I get you've got to do the TAM analysis, you've got to communicate to Wall Street. But basically what you do is you pull out IDC or Gartner data, which is very stovepipe, and you kind of say, "Okay we're in this market." It's the convergence of these markets. It's cloud, it's containers, it's IS, it's PaaS, it's Saas, it's blockchain, it's automation. They're all coming together to form this, it sound like a buzzword but this digital matrix, if you will. And it's how well you leverage that digital matrix, which defines your digital business. So, talk about the role that automation, generally, RPA specifically, process mining specifically, play in a digital business. >> Do you want to take that Mike or do you want me to take it? >> We can both do it? How about that? >> Yeah, perfect. >> So I'll start with it. I mean all this is about convergence at this point, right? There are a number of platform providers out there, including UiPath, that are kind of teaching us that. Often times led by the software vendors in terms of how we think of it but what we know is that there's no one solution. We went down the RPA path, lots of clients and got a lot of excitement and a lot of impact but if you really want to drive it broader, what clients are looking at now, is what is the ecosystem of tools that we need to have in place to make that happen? And from our perspective, it's got to start with really, process intelligence. >> What I would say too, if you look at digital transformation, it was usually driven from an application. Right? Really. And what I think customers found was that, "Hey," I'm going to name some folks here, "Put everything in SAP and we'll solve all your problems." Larry Ellison will tell you, "Put everything into Oracle and we'll solve all your problems." Salesforce, now, I'm a salesperson, I've never used an out of the box Salesforce dashboard in my life, to run my business because I want to run it the way I want to run it. Having said that though, they would say the same thing, "Put everything into our platform and we'll make sure that we can access it and you can use it everywhere and we'll solve all of your problems." I think what customers found is that that's not the case. So they said, "Okay, where are there other ways. Yes, I've got my application doing what it's doing, I've improved my process but hang on. There's things that are repeatable here that I can remove to actually focus on higher level orders." And that's where UiPath comes in. We've kind of had a bottom up swell but I would tell you that as we deliver ROI within days or weeks, versus potentially years and with a heavy, heavy investment up front. We're able to do it. We're able to then work with our partners like PWC, to then demonstrate with business process modeling, the ability to do it across all those, as I call, Silo's of excellence in an organization, to deliver true value, in a timeline, with integrated services from our partner, to execute and deliver on ROI. >> You mentioned some of the great software companies that have been created over the years. One you didn't mention but I want you to comment on it is Service Now. Because essentially McDermott's trying to create the platform of platforms. All about workflow and service management. They bought an RPA company, "Hey we got this too." But it's still a walled garden. It's still the same concept is put everything in here. My question is, how are you different? Yeah look, we're going to integrate with customers who want to integrate because we're an open platform and that's the right approach. We believe there will be some overlap and there'll be some choices to be made. Instead of that top down different approach, which may be a little bit heavy and a large investment up front, with varied results, as far as what that looks like, ours is really a bottoms up. I would tell you too, if you look at our community, which is a million and a half, I believe, strong now and growing, it's really about that practitioner and those people that have embraced it from the bottom up that really change how it gets implemented. And you don't have what I used to call the white blood cells, pushing back when you're trying to say, "Hey, let's take it from this finance and accounting to HR, to the supply chain, to the other sides of the organization," saying, "Hey look, be part of this," instead of, "No, you will do." >> Yeah, there's no, at least that I know of, there's no SAP or Salesforce freemium. You can't try it before you buy. And the entry price is way higher. I mean generally. I guess Salesforce not necessarily but I could taste automation for well under $100,000. I could get in for, I bet you most of your customers started at 25 of $50,000 departmental deployments. >> It's a bottoms up ground swell, that's exactly right. And it's really that approach. Which is much more like an Atlassian, I will tell you and it's really getting to the point where we obviously, and I'm saying this, I work at UiPath, we make really good software. And so, out of the box, it's getting easier and easier to use. It all integrates. Which makes it seamless. The reason people move to RPA first was because they got tired of bouncing between applications to do a task. Now we deliver this enterprise automation platform where you can go from process discovery to crowd sourcing and prioritizing your automations with your pipeline of automations, into Studio, into creating those automations, into testing them and back again, right? We give you the opportunity not to leave the platform and extract the most value out of our, what we call enterprise automation platform. Inclusive of process mining. Inclusive of testing and all those capabilities, document understanding, which is also mine, and it's fantastic. It's very differentiated from others that are out there. >> Well it's about having the right framework in place. >> That's it. From an automation perspective. I think that's a little bit different from what you would expect from the SAP's of the world. Mike, where are you seeing, in the large organizations that you work with, we think of what you describe as the automation pipeline, where are some of the key priorities that you're finding in large organizations? What's in that pipeline and in what order? >> It's interesting because every time we have a conversation whether it's internal or with our clients, we come up with another use case for this type of technology. Obviously, when we're having the initial conversations, what we're talking about is really automation. How do we stuff that pipe with automation. But you know, we have clients that are saying, "Hey listen, I'm trying to carve out of a parent company and what I need to do is document all of my processes in a meaningful way, that I can, at some point, take action on, so there's meaningful outcomes." Whether it be a shared services organization that's looking to outsource, all different types of use cases. So, prioritizing is, I think, it's about impact and the quickest way to impact seems to be automation. >> Is it fair to say, can I look at you UiPath as automation infrastructure? Is that okay or do you guys want to say, "Oh, we're an application." The reason I ask, so then you can answer, is if you look at the great infrastructure plays, they all had a role. The DBA, the CCIE from Cisco, the Cloud Architect, the VMware admin, you've been at all of them, Ryan. So, is there a role emerging here and if it's not plumbing or infrastructure, I know, okay that's cool but course correct me on the infrastructure comment and then, is there a role emerging? >> You know, I think the difference between UiPath and some of the infrastructure companies is, it used to take, Dave, years to give an ROI, really. You'd invest in infrastructure and it's like, if we build it they will come. In fact, we've seen this with Cloud, where we kind of started doing some of that on prem, right? We can do this but then you had Amazon, Azure and others kind of take it and say, "Look, we can do it better, faster and cheaper." It's that simple. So, I would say that we are an application and that we reference it as an enterprise automation platform. It's more than infrastructure. Now, are we going to, as I mentioned, integrate to an open platform, to other capabilities? Absolutely. I think, as you see with our investments and as we continue to build this out, starting in core RPA, buying ProcessGold and getting into our discovery suite of capabilities I covered, getting into, what I see next is, as you start launching many bots into your organization, you're touching multiple applications, so you got to test it. Any time you would launch an application you're going to test it before you go live, right? We see another convergence with testing and I know you had Garrett on and Matt, earlier, with testing, application testing, which has been a legacy, kind of dinosaur market, converging with RPA, where you can deliver automations to do it better, faster and cheaper. >> Thank you for that clarification but now Mike, is that role, I know roles are emerging in RPA and automation but is there, I mean, we're seeing centers of excellence pop up, is there an analogy there or sort of a similar- >> Yeah, I think the new role, if you will, it's not super new but it's really that sense of an automation solution architect. It's a whole different thing. We're talking about now more about recombinant innovation. >> Mike: Yeah. >> Than we are about build it from scratch. Because of the convergence of these low-code, no-code types of solutions. It's a different skill set. >> And we see it at PWC. You have somebody who is potentially a process expert but then also somebody who understands automations. It's the convergences of those two, as well, that's a different skill set. It really is. And it's actually bringing those together to get the most value. And we see this across multiple organizations. It starts with a COE. We've done great with our community, so we have that upswell going and then people are saying, "Hang on, I understand process but I also understand automations. let me put the two together," and that's where we get our true value. >> Bringing in the education and training. >> No question. >> That's a huge thing. >> The traditional components of it still need to exist but I think there are new roles that are emerging, for sure. >> It's a big cultural shift. >> Oh absolutely, yeah. >> How do you guys, how does PWC and UiPath, and maybe you each can answer this in the last minute or so, how do you help facilitate that cultural shift in a business that's growing at warp speed, in a market that is very tumultuous? How do you do that? >> Want to go first or I can go? >> I'll go ahead and go first. It's working with great partners like Mike because they see it and they're converging two different practices within their organization to actually bring this value to customers and also that executive relevance. But even on our side, when we're meeting with customers, just in general, we're actually talking about, how do we deal with, there's what? 13 and a half million job openings, I guess, right now and there's 8500 people that are unemployed, is the last number that I heard. We couldn't even fill all of those jobs if we wanted to. So it's like, okay, what is it that we could potentially automate so maybe we don't need all those jobs. And that's not a negative, it's just saying, we couldn't fill them anyway. So let's focus on where we can and where, there again, can extract the most value in working with our partners but create this new domain that's not networking or virtualization but it's actually, potentially, process and automation. It's testing and automation. It might even be security and automation. Which, I will tell you, is probably coming next, having come out of the security space. You know, I sit there and listen to all these threats and I see these people chasing, really, automated threats. It's like, guys a threat hunter that's really good goes through the same 15 steps that they would when they're chasing a false positive, as if a bot would do that for them. >> I mean, I've written about the productivity declines over the past several decades in western countries, it's not universal around the world and maybe we have a productivity boost because of Covid but it's like this perpetual workday now. That's not sustainable. So we're not going to be able to solve the worlds great problems. Whether it's climate change, diversity, massive deaths, on and on and on, unless we deal with that labor gap. >> That's right. >> And the only way to do that is automation. It's so clear to me that that's the answer. Part of the answer. >> It is part of the answer and I think, to your point Lisa, it's a cultural shift that's going to happen whether we want it to or not. When you think about people that are coming into the work force, it's an expectation now. So if you want to retain or you know, attract and retain the right people, you'd better be prepared for it as an organization. >> Yeah, remember the old, proficient in Word and Excel. Makes it almost trivial. It's trivial compared to that. I think if you don't have automation chops, going forward, it's going to be an issue. Hey, we have whatever, 5000 bots running at our company, how could you help? Huh? What's a bot? >> That's right. You're right. We see this too. I'll give you an example at Cisco. One of their financial analysts, junior starter, he says, "Part of our training program, is creating automations. Why? Because it's not just about finance anymore. It's about what can I automate in my role to actually focus on higher level orders and this for me, is just amazing." And you know, it's Rajiv Ramaswamy's son who's over there at Cisco now as a financial analyst. I was sitting on my couch on a Saturday, no kidding, right Dave? And I get a text from Rajiv, who's now CEO at Nutanix, and he says, "I can't believe I just created a bot." And I said, "I'm at the right place." Really. >> That's cool, I mean hey, you're right too. You want to work for Amazon, you got to know how to provision a EC2 instance or you don't get the job. >> Yeah. >> You got to train for that. And these are the types of skills that are expected- >> That's right. >> For the future. >> Awesome. Guys- >> I'm glad I'm older. >> Are you no longer proficient in Word is the question. >> Guys, thanks for joining us, talking about what you guys are doing together, how you're really facilitating this massive growth trajectory. It's great to be back in person and we look forward to hearing from some of your customers later today. >> Terrific. >> Great. >> Thank you for the opportunity. >> Thank you for having us. >> Thank you guys. >> Our pleasure. For Dave Vellante, I'm Lisa Martin, you're watching theCUBE live from the Bellagio in Las Vegas, at UiPath FORWARD IV. Stick around. We'll be back after a short break. (upbeat music)

in the beginning there were mainframes a highly centralized secure command and control environment open systems brought a spate of innovation innovations that were powered by machines servers storage arrays networks that had to be configured deployed and managed by specialists virtualization that made that simpler but it was still a machine centric world the cloud devops and importantly containers created an inflection point in the industry where no longer do developers have to do a handoff to an infrastructure guru to deploy and often reconfigure systems which could cause other problems containers essentially codified the infrastructure to the point where developers could now be responsible for the full stack with consistency that allows stretching if you will of applications between on-prem to the cloud across clouds and out to the edge kubernetes in particular has enabled organizations to host applications and containers with automation so you can now deploy as many instances of your application as required and communicate between different services used by those applications in a consistent manner manner what this does is enables rolling updates security patches in a run anywhere environment that is changing how organizations build and manage their applications hello and welcome to this cube conversation and preview to kubecon cloud nativecon north america 2021 i'm pleased to welcome my friend and guest stu miniman director of market insights for cloud platforms at red hat stu man great to see you so good to see you dave thanks for having me you're very welcome so you heard my little spiel up front a little narrative what are the big trends that you're seeing that you're watching that you think people should know about they're important yeah well well dave i'm so glad you started out talking about the application because dave i mean you know my background your background very much too is started in infrastructure and for so long we talked about well let's dig different increments that we talk about the infrastructure but there was that huge divide between the people that run the infrastructure and the people that build and own the applications and when agile and devops came out we talked about not throwing things over the wall but when we look at containers and kubernetes really what it is is an application to build our application to modernize our application to run our application as you said they they have to be more that that right once go anywhere has been something we've wanted for a while and from a developer viewpoint i haven't wanted to think about the infrastructure so we want to enable that we want developers to be able to do their thing what we've done at red hat is try to have that consistency in every environment because kubernetes is only a single a very thin layer there's lots that needs to be done on top of that but one of the biggest trends is from an application standpoint the same thing that we've seen in other environments dave when you say okay well what apps did you have well you know it's great to say i have the cool micro service new stuff but what about older applications what about modernizing things can i lift things over can i have a broader spectrum of applications and yes that's where we are with kubernetes we don't just have stateless applications that are you know written in this new modern way we have a broad spectrum and there's another word that i really keyed off of in your intro talking about automation dave if you talk about scale and you talk about automation that's what container was built for if you look at what you know the the predecessor kubernetes was borg at google and if you think about just building things at scale and building things for with automation at their core that's what we've done and that's where this ecosystem is building towards so not saying everybody needs to be google but when you start talking about ai applications when you start talking about different ways to really have automation built into your environment this is where containers and kubernetes really shines because you know that's where we've really gone beyond human scale dave and we've gone to that machine scale so we need to make sure not just to remove humans to remove errors but to be able to have that agility and flexibility and scale which is what offers in this space so all the cool kids of course they want to develop in the cloud but i feel like for every app that's developed in the cloud there's like 10 on prem that are screaming to be modernized and we have a we have a chart on this but so what kind of applications are you seeing going in to containers and kubernetes yeah so so two two charts here for the survey we actually did for kubecon europe leading up to it the one on the left talks about the data is it stateless applications is it stateful applications well what do you know dave it's a mix of both of those right you'll remember dave in the virtualization days it took us about a decade to solve those storage and networking things how do we make sure that things really run at the virtual machine layer how do we have things like moving all over the place and still not break the connection that we had there that was a lot of hard work that we as an industry did well you know here we are six seven years into kubernetes we've solved a lot of those same issues so storage and networking work much better today in kubernetes environments than it did in the early days it started out oh stateless applications but if you look at the data on the second side what kind of applications are there the answer dave is yes you want your cool new modern databases absolutely ai and ml absolutely uh you know through kind of your isv you know more traditional applications the the answer is yes so customers are doing a whole lot of it when i'm meeting with customers one of the first questions we always have dave we've worked on silo busting for for many decades in this industry but if you talk to the infrastructure team and you ask them well what apps are you putting on there if they don't have a good answer the first thing we do is hey you really need to get the developers in the room you really need to understand this because if you stand up a platform just because kubernetes is cool and it's great it helps you build your resume you're not going to have success down the road you want to make sure they're involved up front understand what the requirements so you know kubernetes uh that one of the joke is you know containers and kubernetes add some magic and you know yippee you win it's like well there's a little bit more to that uh to actually have it work you mentioned it took decade plus to actually you know kind of work it out in the virtualization days i mean you remember the api you know stuff and we have the scars from their revenues right exactly but it's interesting when i look at this chart that you know because like you said it started off it's kind of stateless database yes all kinds of applications but database is number one and so you've got a lot of stateful applications enterprise apps security sensitive i mean everything's security sensitive today but hyper security sensitive so do you feel like that time frame relative to you know two decades ago is going to be compressed yes it seems like it's compressing quite rapidly absolutely the cncf always puts out a survey around the event as to where adoption is it's a little bit of a self-selecting for the community but containers and kubernetes broad adoption we've really not only crossed the chasm we're into the you know solid majority of of adoption here and yeah the the databases i mean dave you've covered things like the postgres uh world uh companies like crunchy data uh and some of these modern databases are really built for this type of environment and as you said they shouldn't have to think as much about okay i'm in a cloud or i'm in a different cloud this containerized platform that for applications can live in a lot of different places and that goes to kind of what we're seeing changing in the in the infrastructure world uh over the last couple years i'm glad to mention that a database i was interviewing josh uh at the postgres event and he was explaining to me how far kubernetes has actually come and and how much you know more trustworthy it is today still still some gaps but much different than even two or three years ago yeah i guess one of the highlights interesting at the kubecon europe uh there was the general availability of both the pipelines project and the get ops project it was it's argo cd is the project for for get ops and when that went ga for red hat we actually have that built into openshift at ga and not only was it ready to go we actually had a few customers that were ready to say hey we're using this and we're using the production so we had xa insurance one of the largest payers in the globe and the largest bank in turkey uh were two of the ones that we had saying hey we're using this for the audience if you're not familiar with git ops it's everything we use github as the repository of records so that this is kind of if you think about the old days we had the gold cd or the gold server well we do that for our entire stack that whole infrastructure's code that we've been talking about so many years but it will manage that for us so i patch it at the github level and it will enforce what i have in my environment so if somebody oh wait let me make a change no it's constantly validating things at github so it keeps it rather regimented so we've had uh as i mentioned a couple of customers we've seen a lot of interest in the public sector space because of course dave they're very concerned around security and patching and access and we want to keep that least access necessary so if we can keep that at the github level that's one of the things that will help your environment it really ties into the whole kind of git ops ai ops modern environment so it really ties all of it together as to kind of the the culture of the application and the infrastructure so your files your config files your policies same api same console that is how you get the scale yeah absolutely it's we we don't want the people to have to manage that as much you can let them focus on where they're going to add value to the business so let's talk about cloud cloud the definition of cloud is changing the cloud is expanding it's going on-prem there's hybrid connections to to a cloud or multiple clouds across clouds now as seems to be becoming more real we could talk about that and then maybe eventually out to the edge they're all real in their own right but how much is actually being connected together is something that i'm interested in but what are you seeing there what role is kubernetes playing yeah so first you talked about where applications live the latest data i've seen from kind of the the industry watchers is what are we dave 20 25 of applications are in the cloud that means there's a lot still in the data center if i look at open shift customers yes do we have a lot of them in the data center but then they are also using the public cloud so we have deep partnerships with amazon and azure to do public services in the cloud and our value is we give consistency across all of those environments so are using data center yes most customers still have data center do you have one or more clouds absolutely you know i used to love the andy jassy line um you know multi-cloud doesn't mean that you spread evenly across all the clouds most customers i talk to they have a primary provider that they partner with but things change over time we've seen plenty of customers go two or three years in and say well i have a strategic initiative sometimes they make an acquisition and they'll do another cloud or you know there's lots of factors why i might be doing more than one cloud there's certain industries where basically you have to have relationships with multiple vendors or there's there's regulations that you need to be concerned about so the answer is yes what we've been talking about more than a decade at red hat is open hybrid cloud and what does that mean today you might have not have planned it out but you're hybrid today and what are you going to be in the next decade you're going to be even more hybrid so edge if we talk about it everyone is talking about one of the biggest trends here is how does kubernetes go out to the edge even more that consistency message that i talked about where does openshift live openshift lives anywhere that red hat enterprise linux lives so rel am i going to have linux out of these small environments without a lot of resources what else are you going to have other than linux that's going to be the foundation of what you have so if i can have management and consistency that push out to all of those environments and we've been building out a portfolio something that you'll see us talking about more at kubecon in la is single node openshift so this is a really small footprint openshift but still have the consistency to work across all these environments and we've had different footprints basically to be able to do edge and remote offices whether you're talking from a service provider out to a full customer premise data center but there's there's a lot going on in the edge space we actually have we already have a public use case with verizon who's doing some of the ai use cases i'm sure you can picture with verizon being such a large telco the touch points that they have not only at the service provider but to their customer environments and openshift is the platform for enabling that innovation i mean if i had a big application portfolio on-prem you know legacy company with you know 100-year history obviously i'm going to be doing some stuff in the cloud i would be building some kind of abstraction layer that would could obviously modernize my on-premise state i would want to i would probably start with amazon i'd want to take advantage of aws cloud native tooling but i would absolutely be doing the same thing in azure and google and i would want to build my own cloud right and and and service my customers or or my company have people log into that cloud hide the underlying complexity of the technology and just simplify everything up level it and build a stack around that and probably build it on on openshift why not and of course kubernetes but there are alternatives there's there's eks anywhere for example which presumably is a competitor what do you how is that impacting the marketplace yeah so so dave as you said everybody is kind of extending beyond where they live so microsoft azure has their arc offering google has anthos and amazon was the last one i mean dave you'll remember this when we talked about hybrid and multi-cloud for a bunch of years it was like amazon doesn't talk about hybrid or multi-cloud and you know back when i sat on the analyst side i was like well you can't talk about hybrid and multi-cloud without talking about amazon so they've now uh eks anywhere something they announced back at re invent it just went generally available recently and so they have a distribution of kubernetes that you can use on your own so you could have completely disconnected in your data center running only on vmware is the only way that they support it today and they have in beta there's something called an eks connector so if you want it to be managed from the cloud and have someone more of that consistency they have the way to do that they've had eks which is their kubernetes service in amazon for a bunch of years but as a friend of the program corey quinn says there's actually 17 different ways to run containers in amazon today that's supported by amazon and you laugh at it but you know dave it's it's no different you know remember the storage world okay how many different storage products did emc have do you know how many compute and storage products amazon have they have a lot growing so one of those offerings that they have natively in the console is red hat openshift service for aws so is eksd a competitor well if you're an amazon customer and you want everything amazon and you want to use their environment in a hybrid environment yes you can do that part of the strategy for amazon is outpost we've got on our roadmap to be able to support openshift on outposts so you know we look at our our positioning is we are much more than kubernetes if you talk about the stack of tooling that we build on top of it we've done a real lot to make sure that developers have the tooling that they need from an amazon environment it's just the kubernetes piece it's a in the cloud it's a managed control plane in your own data center it's here's a kubernetes distribution good luck with it if you want monitoring and observability if you want more security if you want all these other pieces you need to build them on top of that as opposed to openshift gives you a full application development platform you know forrester wave we were you know far and away the top and to the right on on that uh spectrum with the leading position for both developers and operators so you know great to see amazon you know i i i hate to say they're like validating something that we do but look everybody's going to do it's true this is true i know that's the marketing line but and and i hate to do the the marketing line but um it's you will you see everyone rolls out their pieces and you say what is the game that they are playing it's amazon wants you to consume as much of their services as you can from a red hat standpoint it's well everywhere that rel can go we can go so openshift can live a lot of places we are going to give you the best experience in your data center in amazon in azure in google in your hosted in the edge we're going to work in all of those environments and we've got years of experience with thousands of production employments like in the data center eks anywhere sitting on top of vsphere as far as i know we have at red hat the most production kubernetes deployments on vmware are openshift actually at vmworld i'll be talking about i'm i'm on a panel talking about openshift on vsphere with vmware so long deep partnership that we've had there no one can speak to the breadth and depth of uh what we've done there uh what's the little line amazon always says there's no compression algorithm for experience well i like it okay but that's why i like your edge strategy because i've said many times the edge is going to be won by developers it's not going to be won by taking a you know x86 box throwing it over the fence and saying okay we got edge and i think you know that's tongue-in-cheek i think that the traditional enterprise hardware vendors are understanding that but they're not in a great position with developers you know maybe cisco a little bit with devnet but generally speaking you know vmware obviously uh it always has been struggling the edge is you know the challenge with the edge is you always have to look through it as to what your perspective is so we have a long and deep relationship with a lot of the telecommunications providers uh people will disparage openstack some but that's actually the solutions that we've sold the most into are network function virtualization for the telco and a lot of them have followed what they worked with us on openstack and continued that into openshift and verizon being one of those proof points you've seen my etr data and i tell you openstack keeps popping up and when you dig into it it's oh that's telco there may not be maybe there's not a region there and it's telcos developing their own cloud essentially and you know they're monetizing it so let's talk about um a cncf the ecosystem uh it's we have another slide on this if you guys wouldn't mind bringing it up i mean it's a complicated matter right you got here's the picture i mean it's like you can't read it because there's just so many people that wants to stop this from becoming you know kind of openstack too yeah that's a great question so chris wright our cto i thought really boiled it down really well one of the big problems with openstack is we were building a complete stack so when they said oh there's all these projects it's like okay well we're going to create a big tent and under that big tent you have to have all of these pieces and they all need to work together and while they were modular projects i needed to have that full stack validated and managing and maintaining that was a nightmare what is the cncf landscape it is you know what doesn't hundred more projects that are independent of what they had so yes kubernetes is the one that gets the most attention but takes something like service mesh service mesh has been around for a few years it's hot we're still early on the adoption trend service mesh works with kubernetes but it isn't limited to kubernetes it's one of those venn diagram it works with it but you can also work with my virtual environment it works in other places and that's true of a lot of these projects often they are complementary to kubernetes but i can adopt them standalone so the challenge is it is that paradox of choice when you go out there there are some people that want to go to the grocery store and buy all of their various pieces and put it all together well other people will come to us and say hey i just want my developers to get working i don't want them to spend all their time fighting over what they had and at red hat we say great we're going to have an opinionated platform and if you come down later and say oh there's a piece of it i don't want to use or i have some other tool i can have its batters are included they're optional and they're swappable so that's what's nice in this developer environment so you know we also work with you know companies like hashicorp a lot of our customers use vault for their secrets uh you know git lab is is another pure var in this industry that have a lot of developer tools they're not a kubernetes provider they usually sit higher up in the stack than we do so there's a lot of players there's a lot of room for activity and innovation yes we've seen a cambrian explosion of projects there and there has been some consolidation that's part of the job of the cncf is in the observability world they took uh i can't remember there were two projects that were kind of similar and they got them in a room and got them to agree to put them into a single project and put those together so we do see some consolidation over time but there's still room for a lot of growth standards are good but so is optionality i think is your point there so the event is october 11th to the 15th it's actually an in-person event you're planning on being there so i i am it's it's hybrid i know a lot of people will be online the other thing i'd point out there are a lot of day zero events so these are really awesome there's a git ops day there's security day there's so many different pieces i'll actually be for the day zero i'll be emceeing the openshift commons where we get a bunch of end users to just tell their stories projects they're working on deployments that they have have some good partner ecosystem discussion there it's usually a lot of fun we hope a bunch of people come to those in purses and then you know the day itself uh the the three days of the show itself are always hopping and lots of learning to be done uh whether you're there in person or online fantastic so i'm glad you pointed out it is a hybrid event that's kind of the nature of these things these days and i think we'll be for for some time i think potentially indefinitely i think people are realizing hey you know what as much of a pain in the neck as virtual events are we can reach a lot more people and it's a good on-demand experience so have at it stu thanks so much for for coming into the cube studios we miss you glad to see you're thriving and uh good luck at the show and uh we'll see you around the block thanks dave i know i'll be seeing john on the cube there too absolutely okay thanks for watching everybody this is dave vellante we'll see you next time you

(upbeat music) >> Hey everyone, I'm John Furrier with The Cube, we're here in Palo Alto, California for a remote interview and session for The Cube presents AWS startup showcase, the next big thing in AI security in life sciences. I'm John Furrier. We're here with a great segment on cloud. Next big thing in Cloud with Chaos Search, Thomas Hazel, Chief Technology and Science Officer of Chaos Search joined by Jeremy Foran, the head of data analytics, the bad boy of data analyst as they say, but BAI communications, Jeremy Thomas, great to have you on. >> Great to be here. >> Pleasure to be here. >> So we're going to be talking about applying large scale log analytics to building the future of the transit industry. Obviously Telco's a big part of that, smart cities, you name the use case self-driving trucks, cars, you name it, everything's now edge. That the edge is super valuable, it's a new kind of last mile if you will, it's moving fast, it's mobile. This is a huge deal. Let's get into it, Thomas. What's this big story around this, this session? >> Well, we provide unique ability to take all that edge data and drive it into a data lake offering that we provide data analytics, both in logs, BI and coming out with ML there this year into next. So our unique play is transforming customers' cloud outer storage into an analytical platform. And really, I think with BIA is a log analytics specifically where, you know there's a lot of data streams from all those devices going into a lake that we transform their lake into analytics for driving, I guess, operational analysis. >> You know, Jeremy, I remember back in the day, I'm old enough to remember when the edge was the remote switch or campus hub or something. And then even on the Telco side, there was no wifi back in 2000 and you know, someone was driving in a car and you got any signal, you're lucky. Now you got, you know, no perimeter you have unlimited connectivity everywhere. This has opened up more of an Omni channel data problem. How do you see that world? Because you still got more devices pushing out at this edge and it's getting super local, right? Even on the body, even on people in the car. So certainly a lot of change on the infrastructure side. What does that pose for data challenge? >> Yeah, I, I would say that, you know users always want more, more bandwidth, more performance and that requires us to create more systems that require more complexity to deliver that user experience that we're, we're very proud of. And with that complexity means, you know exponentially more data. And so one of the wifi networks we offer in the Toronto subway system, T-connect, you know we see a 100-200,000 unique users a day and you can imagine just the amount of infrastructure to support that so that everyone has a seamless experience and can get their news and emails and even stream media while they're waiting for the subway. >> So you guys provide state of the art infrastructure for cell, wifi, broadcast, radio, IP networks, basically I mean, I call it the smart city kind of go-to. But that's basically anything involving kind of that edge piece. This is a huge thing. So as smart cities are on the table, which and you seeing 5G being called more of an enterprise app where there's feeding large dense areas of people this is now a new modern version of what I would call the, the smart city blueprint. What's changed in your mind on this whole modernization of this smart city infrastructure concept? What's new? What's cutting edge? >> Yeah. I would say that, you know there was an explosion of data and a lot of our insights aren't coming from one system anymore. It's coming from collecting data from all of the different pieces, the different infrastructure whether that's your fiber infrastructure or your wireless infrastructure, and then to solve problems you need to correlate data across those systems. So we're seeing more and more technologies that allow you to do that correlation. And that's really where we're finding tons of value, right? >> Thomas, take us through what you guys do as a, as a, as a product, a value proposition, the secret sauce, and and why I'm here with Jeremy? Why is this conversation important for the folks watching? What's the connection between Chaos Search and BAI communication? >> Well, it's data, right? And lots of it. So our unique platform allows people like Jeremy to stream all this data, right? In you know, today's world terabytes go to petabytes really easily, billions go to trillion really easily, and so providing the analysis of that data for their operations is challenging particularly based on technology and architectures that have been around for a long time. So what we do here at Chaos Search is the ability for BIA to stream all these devices, all these services into one centralized data lake on their cloud outer storage, where we connect to that cloud outer storage and transform it into an analytical database to do, in this case log analytics and do it seamlessly, easily where a new workload a new stream just streams into that lake. And we, as a service take over, we discover we index it and publish well-known open API and visualization so that they can focus on their business, not all the operational data pipeline, database and data engineering type work that again, at these types of scales is is frankly a nightmare. >> You know, one of the things that we've always observed on The Cube when you see new things come out that are really cool groundbreaking products like you guys are doing it's always a challenge to manage the cost and complexity of bringing in the new. So Jeremy, take us through this tech stack here because you know, it's, sometimes it might be unwieldy just in from a tech stack perspective, nevermind the business logic or the business processes that got to be either unwound or changed. Can you take us through the IT stack that's critical to support your, your area? >> Yeah, absolutely. So with all the various different equipment you know, to provide our public wifi and and our desks, carrier agnostic, LT and 5G networks, you know, we need to be able to adhere to PCI compliance and ISO 27,000, so that, you know, requires us to keep a tremendous amount of our data. And the challenge we were facing is how do we do that cost effectively, and not have to make any sort of compromises on how we do that? A lot of times you'll find you don't know the value of your data today until tomorrow. An example would be COVID. You know, we, when we were storing data two years ago we weren't planning for a pandemic, but now that we were able to retain that data and look back we can see a tremendous amount of value with trying to forecast how our systems will recover when things get back to normal. And so when I met Thomas and we were sort of talking about how we were going to solve some of these data retention problems, he started explaining to me their compression in some of the performance metrics of their profession. And, you know, I said, oh, middle out compression. And it was a bit, it's been a bit of a running joke between me and him and I'm sure others, but it's incredibly impressive the amount of data we're able to store at the kind of cost, right? >> What, what problem does, did he solve for you? Because I mean, these guys, honestly, you know the startups have a lot and the Cloud's enabling more value now, we're seeing this, but when you look at this what was your, what was your core problem that you had? >> Yeah, so we, when you we want to be able to, I mean, primarily this is for our CIS log server. And CIS long servers today aren't what they were 10, 15 years ago where you just sort of had a machine and if something broke you went and looked, right? Now, they're very complex, that data is feeding to various systems and third-party software. So, you know, we're actively looking for changes in patterns and we have our, you know security teams auditing these from, for penetration testing and such. And then the getting that data to S3 so that we could have it in case, you know, for two, three years of storage. Well, the problem we were facing is all of that all of these different systems we needed to feed and retain data, we couldn't do that on site. We wanted to do use S3 but when we were doing some projections, it's like, we, we don't really have the budget for all of these places. Meeting Thomas and, and working with Chaos Search, you know, using their compression brought those costs down drastically. And then as we've been working with them the really exciting thing is they we're bringing more and more features to that surface or offering. So, you know, first it was just storing that data away. And now we're starting to build solutions off of that sitting in storage. So that's where it gets really exciting because you know, there, it's nothing to start getting anomaly detection off those logs, which, you know originally it was just, we need to store them in case somebody needs them two, three years from now. >> So Thomas Thomas, if I get this right then what I'm hearing is obviously I've put aside the complexity and the governing side the regulations for a minute just generally. Data retention as, as a key value proposition and having data available when you need it and then to do that and doing it in a very cost-effective simple way. It sounds like what you guys are offering. Is that right? >> Yeah, I mean, one key aspect of our solution is retention, right? Those are a lot of the challenges, but at the same time we provide real time notification like a classic log analytic type platform, alerting, monitoring. The key thing is to bringing both those worlds together and solving that problem. And so this, you know, middle in middle out, well, to be frank, we created a new technology called what we call Chaos Index that is a database index that is wonderfully small as as we're indicating, but also provides all the features that makes Cloud object storage, high performance. And so the idea is that use this lake offering to store all your data in a cost effective way but our service allows you to analyze it both in a long retention perspective as well as real-time perspective and bringing those two worlds together is so key because typically you have Silo Solutions and whether it's real-time at scale or retention scale the cost complexity and time to build out those solutions I know Jeremy knows also, well, a lot of folks come to us to solve those problems because you know when you're dealing with, you know terabytes and up, you know these things get complicated and to be frank, fall over quite often. >> Yeah. Let me, let me just ask you the question that's probably on everyone's mind who's watching and you guys probably have both heard this many times, because a lot of people just throw the data lake solution around like it's, you know why they whitewash their kind of old legacy solutions with data lake, store it on data lake. It's been called a data swamp. So people are fearful that, okay. I love this idea of a data lake, who doesn't like throwing data into a repository, having it available at will with notifications, all this secret magic beans that just magically create value. But I doubt that, I don't want to turn into a data swamp. So Thomas and Jeremy, talk about that, that concern. How do you mitigate that? How do you talk to that? Because if done properly, there's huge value in having a control plane or some sort of data system that is going to be tied in with signals and just storage retention. So I see the value. How do you manage the concern that people might say, Hey, I don't want to date a swamp? >> Yeah, I'll jump into that. So, you know, let's just be frank, Hadoop was a great tool for a very narrow scenario. I think that data swamp came out because people were using the tooling in an incorrect way. I've always had the belief that data lakes are the future. You just have the right to have the right service the right philosophy to leverage it. So what we do here at Chaos Search is we allow you to organize it, discover it, automatically index that data so that swamp doesn't get swampy. You know, when you stream data into your lake how do you organize it, such that it's has a nice stream? How do you transform that data into a value? So with our service we actually start where the storage begins, not a end point, not an archive. So we have tooling and services that keep your lake from being swampy to be, to be clear. And, but the key value is the benefits of the lake, the cost effectiveness, the reliability, security, the scale, those are all the benefits. The problem was that no one really made cloud offer storage a first-class citizen and we've done that. We've dressed the swamp nature but provided all the value of analysis. And that cost metrics, that scale. No one can touch cloud outer storage, it just, you can't. But what we've done is cracked the code of how you make it analytical. >> Jeremy, I want to get your thoughts on this too, on your side I mean, as a practitioner and customer of, of of these solutions, you know, the concern is am I missing anything? And I've been a big proponent of data retention for many, many years. You know, Dave Alondra in our Cube knows all know that I bang on the table all the time, store your data, be a data hoarder, because it's going to come back and be valuable. Costs are going down so I'm a big fan of data retention. But the fear might be on, what am I missing? Because machine learning starts to come in down the road you got AI, the more data you have that's accessible in real time, the more machine learning is effective. Do you, do you worry about missing anything or do you just store everything? >> We, we store everything. Sometimes it's, it's interesting where the value and insights come from your data. Something that see, might seem trivial today down the road offers tremendous, tremendous value. So one of the things we do is provide because we have wifi in the subway infrastructure, you know taking that wifi data, we can start to understand the flow of people in and out of the subway network. And we can take that and provide insights to the rail operators, which get them from A to B quicker. You know, when we built the wifi it wasn't with the intention of getting Torontonians across the city faster. But that was one of the values that we were able to get from the data in terms of, you know, Thomas's solution, I think one of the reasons we we engaged him in the first place is because I didn't believe his compression. It sounded a little too good to be true. And so when it was time to try them out, you know all we had to do was ship data to an S3 bucket. You know, there's tons of, of solutions to do that. And, and data shippers right out of the box. It took a few, you know, a few minutes and then to start exploring the data was in Cabana, which is or their dashboard, which is, you know, an interface that's easy to use. So we were, you know, within a two days getting the value out of that data that we were looking for which is, you know, phenomenal. We've been very happy. >> Thomas, sounds like you've got a great, great testimonial here and it's not like an easy problem that he's living in there. I mean, I think, you know, I was mentioning this earlier and we're going to get into it now. There's regulations and there's certain compliance issues. First of all, everyone has this now problem now, it's not just within that space. But just the technical complexities of packets moving around I got on my wifi and the stop here, I'm jumping over here, and there's a ton of data it's all over the place, it's totally unstructured. So it's a tough, tough test for you guys, Chaos Search. So yeah, it's almost like the Mount Everest of customer testimonials. You've got to, it's a big, it's a big use case here. How does this translate to other clients? And talk about this governance and security controls because I know this highly regulated and you got there's penalties involved on his side of the world and Telco, the providers that have these edge devices there's actually penalties and, and whatnot so, not just commercial, it's maybe a, you know risk management, but here there's actually penalties. >> Absolutely. So, you know centralizing your data has a real benefit of of not getting in trouble, right? So you have one place, you store one place that's a good thing, but what we've done and this was a key aspect to our offering is we as Chaos, Chaos Search folks, we don't own the customer's data. We don't own BIA's data. They own the data. They give us access rights, very standard way with Cloud App storage roll on policies from Amazon, read only access rights to their data. And so not owning a customer's data is a big selling point not only for them, but for us for compliance regulatory perspective. So, you know, unlike a lot of solutions where you move the data into them and now they are responsible, actually BIA owns everything. We, they provide access so that we could provide an analysis that they could turn off at any point in time. We're also SOC 2 type 1 and type 2 compliant you got to do it, you know, in this, this world, you know when we were young we ran at this because of all of these compliance scenarios that we will be in, but, you know, the long as short of it is, we're transient service. The storage, cloud storage is the source of truth where all data resides and, you know, think about it, it's architecturally smart, it's cost effective, it's secure, it's reliable, it's durable. But from a security perspective, having the customer own their own data is a big differentiation in the market, a big differentiation. >> Jeremy, talk about on your end the security controls surrounding the log management environments that span across countries with different regulations. Now you've got all kinds of policy dimensions and technical dimensions and topology dimensions. >> Yeah, absolutely. So how we approach it is we look at where we have offerings across the globe and we figure out what the sort of highest watermark level of adherence we need to hit. And then we standardize across that. And by shipping to S3, it allows us to enforce that governance really easily and right to Tom's point you know, we manage the data, which is very important to us and we don't have to be worried about a third party or if we want to change providers years down the road. Although I don't think anyone's coming out with 81% compression anytime soon (laughs). But yeah, so that's, for us, it's about meeting those high standards and having the technologies that enable us to do it. And Chaos Search is a very big part of that right now. >> All right let me ask you a question, for the folks watching that are like really interested in this topic, what would you say to them when evaluating Chaos Search obviously, your use case is complex, but so are others as enterprises start to have an edge, obviously the security posture shifts, everything shifts. There's no more perimeter and the data problem becomes acute to them. So the enterprises are going to start seeing what you've been living for in your world. What's your advice to people watching? >> My advice would be to give them a try. You know, it's it's has been really quite impressive. The customer service has been hands-on and we've been getting, you know, they've been under-promising and over-delivering, which when you have the kind of requirements to manage solutions in these very complex environment, cloud local, you know various data centers and such, you know that kind of customer service is very important, right? It enables us to continue to deliver those high quality solutions. >> So Thomas give us the, the overview of the secret sauce. You've got a great testimonial here. You got people watching, what's different now in the world that you're going after, what wave are you on? Talk to the people who are watching this and saying, okay why Chaos Search? Why are you relevant? Obviously there's some cool things you're doing. I love that. What's cool, and what's relevant and why what's in it for them if they work with you? >> Yeah. So you know, that that whole Silicon Valley reference actually got that from my patent attorney when we were talking. But yeah, no, we, we, you know, focus on if we can crack this code of making data, one a face small, store small, moves small, process small. But then make it multimodal access make it virtual transformation. If we could do that, and we could transform cloud outer storage into a high-performance medical database all these heavy, heavy problems, all that complexity that scaffolding that you build to do these type of scales would be solved. Now what we had to focus on and this has been my, I guess you say life passion is working on a new data representation. And that's our secret sauce that enables a new architecture a new service that where the customer folks on their tooling, their APIs, their visualizations that they know and love, what we focus is on taking that data lake, and again, to transform it into an analytical database, both for log analytics think of like elastic search replacement, as well as a BI replacement for your SQL warehousing database. And coming out later this year into 2022, ML support on one representation. You don't have the silo your information you don't have to re index your data, both. So elastic search CQL and actually ML TensorFlow actions on the exact same representation. So think about the data retention, doing some post analysis on all those logs of data, months, years, and then maybe set up some triggers if you see some anomaly that's happening within your service. So you think about it, the hunt with BI reporting, with predictive analysis on one platform. Again, it sounds a little unicorn, I agree with Jeremy, maybe it didn't sound true but it's been a life's work. So it didn't happen overnight. And you know, it's eight years, at least in the in the making, but I guess the life journey in the end. >> Well, you know, the timing is great. You know, all the database geeks out there who have been following the data industry know that, you know there's a good point for structured data but when you start getting into mechanisms and they become a bottleneck or a blocker to innovation, you know you starting to see this idea of a data lake being let the data kind of form, let it be. You know, I hate the word control plane but more of a, a connective tissue between systems is become an interesting thing. So now you can store everything so you know, no worries there, no blind spots and then let the magic of machine learning in the future, come around. So Jeremy, with that, I got to ask you since you're the bad boy of data analytics at BAI communications head of data analytics, what does that, what do you look for in the future as you start to set this up because I can almost imagine and connecting the dots here in the interview, you got the data lake you're storing everything, which is good. Now you have to create more insights and get ahead of the curve and provide some prescriptive and automated ways to do things better. What's your vision? >> First I would just like to say that, you know when astrophysicists talk about, you know, dark dark energy, dark matter, I'm convinced that's where Thomas is hiding the ones and zeros to get that compression, right? I don't don't know that to be fact but I know it to be true. And then in terms of machine learning and these sort of future technologies, which are becoming available you know, starting from scratch and trying to build out you know, models that have value, you know that takes a fair amount of work. And that landscape keeps changing, right? Being able to push our data into an S3 bucket and then you know, retain that data and then get anomaly detection on top of it. That's, I mean, that's something special and that unlocks a lot of ability for you know, our teams to very easily deliver anomaly detection, machine learning to our customers, without having to take on a lot of work to understand the latest and greatest in machine learning. So, I mean, it's really empowering to our team, right? And, and a tool that we're going to. >> Yeah, I love and I love the name, Chaos Search, Thomas. I got to say, you know it brings up the inside baseball around chaos monkey which everyone knows was a DevOps tool to create kind of day two simulate day two operations and disruptions in DevOps. But what you're really getting at is your whole new architecture that's beyond DevOps movement, it's like next gen architecture. Talk about that to the people watching who have a lot of legacy and want to transform over to a more enabling platform that's going to give them some headroom for their data. What, what do you say to them? How do they get started? What, how should they, how what's their mindset? What they, what are some first principles you can share? >> Well, you know, I always start with first principles but you know, I like to say we're the next next gen. The key thing with the Chaos Search offering is you can start today with B, without even Chaos Search. Stream your data to S3. We're going to make hip and cool data lakes again. And actually it's a, Google it now, data lakes are hip and cool. So start streaming now, start managing your data in a well-formed centralized viewpoint with security governance and cost effectiveness. Then call Chaos Search shop, and we'll make access to it easily, simply to ultimately solve your problems. The bug whether your security issue, the bug, whether it's more performance issues at scale, right? And so when workloads can be added instantaneously in your data lake it's, it's game changing it's mind changing. So from the DevOps folks where, you know, you're up all night trying to say, how am I going to scale from terabyte, you know one today to 50 terabytes, don't. Stream it to S3. We'll take over, we'll worry about that scale pain. You worry about your job of security, performance, operations, integrity. >> That really highlights the cloud scale the value proposition as, as apps start to be using data as an input, not just as a a part of a repo repo, so great stuff. Thomas, thanks for sharing your life's work and your technology magic. Jeremy, thanks for coming on and sharing your use cases with us and how you are making it all work. Appreciate it. >> Thank you. >> My pleasure. >> Okay. This is The Cubes, coverage and presenting AWS this time showcase the next big thing here with Chaos Search. I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>>hello. >>Welcome to the special key conversation. I'm John ferry, host of the queue here in Palo Alto, California, featuring star dog is a great hot start-up. We've got a great guest, Rob Harris, vice president of solutions consulting for star dog here talking about some of the cloud growth, um, knowledge graphs, the role of data. Obviously there's a huge sea change. You're seeing real value coming out of this COVID as companies coming out of the pandemic, new opportunities, new use cases, new expectations, highly accelerated shift happening, and we're here to break it down. Rob, thanks for joining us on the cube conversation. Great to be here. So got, I'm excited to talk to you guys about your company and specifically the value proposition I've been talking for almost since 2007 around graph databases with Neo four J came out and looking at how data would be part of a real part of the developer mindset. Um, early on, and this more of the development. Now it's mainstream, you're seeing value being created in graph structures. Okay. Not just relational. This has been, uh, very well verified. You guys are in this business. So this is a really hot area, a lot of value being created. It's cool. And it's relevant. So tell us first, what is star dog doing? What's uh, what is the company about? >>Yeah, so I mean, we are an enterprise knowledge graph platform company. We help people be successful at standing up knowledge graphs of the data that they have both inside their company and using public data and tying that all together in order to be able to leverage that connected data and really turn it into knowledge through context and understand it. >>So how did this all come about this from a tech standpoint? What is the, what is the, uh, what was the motivation around this? Because, um, obviously the unstructured wave hit, you're seeing successes like data bricks, for instance, just absolutely crushing it on, on their valuation and their relevance. You seeing the same kind of wave hit almost kind of born back on the Hadoop days with unstructured data. Is that a big part of it? Is it just evolution? What's the big driver here? >>Yeah, no, I think it's a, it's a great question. The driver early is as these data sets have increased for so many companies trying to really bring some understanding to it as they roll it out in their organizations, you know, we've tried to just try to centralize it and that hasn't been sufficient in order to be able to unlock the value of most organization status. So being able to step beyond just, you know, pulling everything together into one place, but really putting that context and meaning around it that the graph can do. So that's where we've really got started at, uh, back in the day is we really looked at the inference and reasoning part of a knowledge graph. How do we bring more context and understanding that doesn't naturally exist within the data? And that really is how we launched off the product. >>I got to ask you around the use cases because one of the things that's really relevant right now is you're seeing a lot of front end development around agile application. Dev ops is brought infrastructure as code. You're seeing kind of this huge tsunami of new of applications, but one of the things that people are talking about in some of the developer circles and it's kind of hits the enterprise is this notion of state because you can have an application calling data, but if the data is not addressable and then keeping state and in real time and all these kinds of new, new technical problems, how do you guys look at that? When you look at trying to create knowledge graphs, because maintaining that level of connection, you need data, a ton of it it's gotta be exposed and addressable and then deal dealt with in real time. How do you guys look at it? >>Yeah, that's, that's a great question. What we've done to try to kind of move the ball forward on this is move past, trying to centralize that data into a knowledge graph that is separate from the rest of your data assets, but really build a data virtualization layer, which we have integrated into our product to look at the data where it is in the applications and the unstructured documents and the structure repositories, so that we can observe as state changes in that data and answer questions that are relevant at the time. And we don't have to worry about some sort of synchronous process, you know, loading information into the graph. So that ability to add that virtualization layer, uh, to the graph really enables you to get more of a real time, look at your data as it evolves. >>Yeah. I definitely want to double, double click on that and say, but I want to just drop step back and kind of set the table for the folks that aren't, um, getting in the weeds yet on this. There's kind of a specific definition of enterprise knowledge graph. Could you like just quickly define that? What is the enterprise knowledge graph? Sure. >>Yeah, we, we really see an enterprise knowledge graph as a connected set of data with context. So it's not just storing it like a graph, but connect again and putting meaning around that data through structure, through definitions, et cetera, across the entire enterprise. So looking at not just data within a single application or within a single silo, but broadly through your enterprise, what does your data mean? How is it connected and what does it look like within context each other? >>How should companies reuse their data? >>Boy, that's a broad question, right? Uh, you know, I mean, one of the things, uh, that I think is very important as so many companies have just collected data assets over the years, they collect more and more and more. We have customers that have eight petabytes of data within their data Lake. And they're trying to figure out how to leverage it by actually connecting and putting that context around the data. You can get a lot more meaning out of that old data or the stale data or the unknown data that the people are getting right today. So the ability to reuse the data assets with in context of meeting is where we see people really be able to make huge licks for in their organization like drug companies be able to get drugs to market faster. By looking at older studies, they've done where maybe the meeting was hidden because it was an old system. Nobody knew what the particular codes and meaning were in context of today. So being able to reuse and bring that forward brings real life application to people solving business problems today. >>Rob, I got to get your thoughts on something that we always riff on here on the cube, which is, um, you know, do you take down the data silos or do you leverage them? And you know, this came up a lot, many years ago when we first started discussing containers, for instance, and then that we saw that you didn't have to kill the old to bring in the new, um, there's one mindset of, you know, break the silos down, go horizontal scalability on the data, critical data, plane control, plane, other saying, Hey, you know what, just put it, you know, put a wrapper around those, those silos and you know, I'm oversimplifying, but you get the idea. So how should someone who's really struggling with, or, or not struggling, we're putting together an architecture around their future plans around dealing with data and data silos specifically, because certainly as new data comes in there's mechanism for that. But as you have existing data silos, what do companies do? What's the strategy in your opinion? >>Yeah, you know, it is a really interesting question. I was in data warehouse and for a long, long time and a big proponent of moving everything to one place. And, uh, then I really moved into looking into data virtualization and realized that neither of those solutions are complete, that there are some things that have to be centralized and moved the old systems aren't sufficient in order to be able to answer questions or process them. But there are many data silos that we've created within organizations that can be reused. You can leverage the compute, you can leverage the storage that already exist within us. And that's the approach we've taken at start off. We really want to be able to allow you to centralize the data that makes sense, right. To get it out of those old systems, that should be shut down from just a monetary perspective, but the systems that are have actual meeting or that it's too expensive in order to, to remove them, leverage those data silos. And by letting you have both approaches in the same platform, we hope to make this not an either or architectural decision, which is always the difficult question. >>Okay. So you got me on that one. So let me just say that. I want to leverage my data silos. What do I do? Take me through the playbook. What if I got the data silos? What is the star dog recommendation for me? >>Sure. So what, what we generally recommend is you start off with building kind of a model, uh, in the, in the lingo, we sometimes say ontology Euro, some sort of semantic understanding that puts context around what is my data and what does it mean? And then we allow you to map those data silos. We have a series of connectors in our product that whether it's an application and you're connecting through a rest connector, or whether it's a database and you're connecting through ODBC or JDBC map that data into the platform. And then when you issue queries to the startup platform, we federate those queries out to the downstream systems and answer as if that data existed on the graph. So that way we're leveraging the silos where they are without you having to move the data physically into the platform. So you guys are essentially building a >>Data fabric. >>We are, yeah. Data fabric is really the new term. That's been popping up more and more with our customers when they come to us to say, how can we kind of get past the traditional ways of doing data integration and unified data in a single place? Like you said, we don't think the answer is purely all about moving it all to one big Lake. We don't think the answer is all about just creating this virtualization plane, but really being able to leverage the festival. >>All right. So, so if you, if you believe that, then let's just go to the next level then. So if you believe that they can, don't have to move things around and to have one specific thing, how does a customer deal with their challenge of hybrid cloud and soon to be multi-cloud because that's certainly on the horizon. People want choice. There's going to be architectural. I mean, certainly a cloud operations will be in play, but this on-premise and this cloud, and then soon to be multiple cloud. How do you guys deal with that? That question? >>Yeah, that's a great question. And this is really a, an area that we're very excited about and we've been investing very heavily in is how to have multiple instances of StarTalk running in different clouds or on prem on the clown, coordinate to answer questions, to minimize data movement between the platforms. So we have the ability to run either an agent on prem. For example, if you're running the platform in the cloud or vice versa, you can run it in the cloud. You are two full instances that start off where they will actually cope plan queries to understand where does the data live? Where is it resident and how do I minimize moving data around in order to answer the question? So we really are trying to create that unified data fabric across on-prem or multiple cloud providers, so that any of the nodes in the platform can answer question from any of the datas >>S you know, complexity is always the issue. People cost go up. When you have complexity, you guys are trying to tame it. This is a huge conversation. You bring up multi-cloud and hybrid cloud. And multi-cloud when you think about the IOT edge, and you don't want to move data around, this is what everyone's saying, why move it? Why move data? It's expensive to move data processes where it is, and you kind of have this kind of flexibility. So this idea of unification is a huge concept. Is that enough? And how should customers think about the unification? Because if you can get there, it almost, it is the kind of the Holy grail you're talking about here. So, so this is kind of the prospect of, of having kind of an ideal architecture of unification. So take us, take me through that one step deeper. >>Well, it is, it is kind of interesting because as you really think about unifying your data and really bringing it together, of course it is the Holy grail. And that's what people have been talking about. Um, gosh, since I started in the industry over 20 years ago, how do I get this single plain view of my data, regardless of whether it's physically located or, uh, somehow stitched together, but what are the things that, you know, our founders really strongly believed on when they started the company? Was it isn't enough. It isn't sufficient. There is more value in your data that you don't even know. And unlocking that through either machine learning, which is, of course, we all know it's very hot right now to look at how do I derive new insights out of the data that I already have, or even through logical reasoning, right? And inference looking at, what do I understand about how that data is put together and how it's created in order to create more connections within the data and answer more questions. All those are ways to grow beyond just unifying your data, but actually getting more insights out of it. And I think that is the real Holy grail that people are looking for, not just bringing all the data together, but actually being able to get business value and insights out of that data. Yeah. >>Looking for it. You guys have obviously a pretty strong roster of clients that represent that. Um, but I got to ask you, since you brought up the founders, uh, the company, obviously having a founders' DNA, uh, mindset, um, tends to change the culture or drive the culture of the covenant change with age drives the culture of the company. What is the founder's culture inside star, dog? What is the vibe there, if you could, um, what do they talk about the most when you, when they get in that mode of being founders like, Hey, you know, this is the North star, what is, what's the rap like? What's the vibe share? It takes that, take us through some star star, dog culture. >>Sure. So our three founders came out of the rusty of Maryland, all in a PhD program around semantic reasoning and logical understanding and being able to understand data and be able to communicate that as easily as possible is really the core and the fiber of their being. And that's what we see continually under discussion every single day. How can we push the limits to take this technology and your gift easier to use more available, bring more insights to the customers beyond what we've seen in the past. And I find that really exciting to be able to constantly have conversations about how do we push the envelope? How do we look beyond even what Gartner says is five or eight years in the future, but looking even further ahead. So there >>They're into they're into this whole data scene. Then big time they are >>That they are very active in the conferences and posts and you know, all that great. >>They love this agility. They got to love dev ops. I mean, if you're into this knowledge graph scene, so I gotta, I gotta ask you, what's the machine learning angle here, obviously, AI, we know what AI is. AI is essentially combination of many things, machine learning and other computer science and data access. Um, what is the secret sauce behind the machine learning and, and the vibe and the product of, of, uh, >>Yeah, a lot of times w we, the way that we leverage machine learning or the way that we look at it is how do we create those connections between data? So you have multiple different systems and you're trying to bring all that data together. Yeah. It's not always easy to tell, is this rod Harris the same as that rod Harris is this product the same as that product. So when possible we will leverage keys or we'll leverage very, uh, you know, systematic type of understanding of these things are the same, but sometimes you need to reach beyond that. And that's where we leverage a lot of machine learning within the platform, looking at things like linear regression or other approaches around the graph, you know, connectivity, analysis, page rank, things like that to say, where are things the same so that we can build that connections in that connectivity as automatically as possible. >>You don't get a lot of talks on the cube. Also. Now that's new news, new clubhouse app, where people are talking about misinformation, obviously we're in the media business. We love the digital network effect. Everything's networks, the network economy. You starting to see this power of information and value. You guys carved the knowledge graph. So I gotta, I gotta ask you, when you look at this kind of future where you have this, um, complexity and the network effect, um, how are you guys looking at that data access? Because if you don't have the data, you're not going to have that insight, right? So you need to have that, that network connection. Is that a limitation or for companies? Is that an, um, cause usually people aren't necessarily their blind spot is their data or their lack of their data. So having things network together is going to be more of the norm in the future. How do you guys see that playing out? Yeah, >>I think you're exactly right. And I think that as you look beyond where we are today, and a lot of times we focus today on the data that a company already has, what do I know? Right. What do I know about you? What, how do I interact with you? How have I interacted with you? I think that as we look at the future, we're going to talk more about data sharing, but leveraging publicly available information about being able to take these insights and leverage them, not just within the walls of my own organization, but being able to share them and, uh, work together with other organizations to bring up a better understanding of you as a person or as a consumer that we could all interact with. Yeah, you're absolutely right. You know, Metcons law still holds true that, you know, more network connections bring more value. I certainly see that growing in the future, probably more around, you know, more data sharing and more openness about leveraging publicly available. >>You know, it's interesting. You mentioned you came from a data warehouse background. I remember when I broken the businessmen 30 years ago, when I started getting computer science, you know, it was, it was, there was, there was pain having a product and an enabling platform. You guys seem to have this enabling platform where there's no one use case. I mean, you, you have an unlimited use case landscape. Um, you could do anything with what you guys have. It's not so much, I mean, there's, low-hanging fruit. So I got to ask you, if you have that, uh, enabling platform, you're creating value for customers. What are some of the areas you see developing, like now in terms of low-hanging fruit and where's the possibilities? How do you guys see that? I'm sure you've probably got a tsunami of activity around corner cases from media to every vertical we do. And that's, you know, >>The exciting part of this job. Uh, part of the exciting part of knowledge press in general is to see all the different ways that they are allowed to use. But we do see some use cases repeated over and over again. Uh, risk management is a very common one. How do I look at all the people and the assets with an organization, the interactions they have to look at hotspots for risk, uh, that I need to correct within my organization for the pre-commercial pharma, that has been a very, very hot area for us recently. How do we look at all the that's available with an organization that's publicly available in order to accelerate drug development in this post COVID world, that's become more and more relevant, uh, for organizations to be able to move forward faster and the kind of bio industry and my sciences. Um, that's a use case that we've seen repeated over and over again. And then this growing idea of the data fabric, the data fabric, looking at metadata within the organization to improve data integration processes, to really reduce the need for moving data without or around the organization as much. Those are the use cases we've seen repeated over and over again over the last >>Awesome Rob. My last question before we wrap up is for the solution architect that's out there that has, you know, got a real tall order. They have to put together a scalable organization, people process and technology around a data architecture. That's going to be part of, um, the next gen, the next gen next level activity. And they need headroom for IOT edge and industrial edge, uh, and all use cases. Um, what's your advice to them as they have to look out at and start thinking about architecture? >>Yeah, that's, it's a great question. Uh, I really think that it's important to keep your options open as the technology in the space continues to evolve, right? It's easy to get locked into a single vendor or a single mindset. Um, I've been an architect most of my career, and that's usually a lot of the pitfalls. Things like a knowledge graph are open and flexible. They adhere to standards, which then means you're not locked into a single vendor and you're allowed to leverage this type of technology to grow beyond originally envisioned. So thinking about how you can take advantage of these modern techniques to look at things and not just keep repeating what you've done in the past, the sins of the past have, uh, you know, a lot of times do reappear. So fighting against that as much as possible as gritty is my encouragement. >>Awesome, great insight. And I love this. I love this area. I know you guys got a great trend. You're riding on a very cool, very relevant final minute. Just take a quick minute to give a plug for the company. What's the business model. How do I deploy this? How do I get the software? How do you charge for it? If I'm going to buy this solution or engage with star DOE what do I do? Take me through that. Sure. >>Yeah. We, uh, we are like, uh, you've sat through this whole thing. We are enterprise knowledge graph platform company. So we really help you get started with your business, uh, uh, leveraging and using a knowledge graph fricking organization. We have the ability to deploy on prem. We have on the cloud, we're in the AWS marketplace today. So you can take a look at our software today, who generally are subscription-based based on the size of the install. And we are happy to talk to you any time, just drop by our website, reach out we'll we'll get doctors. >>Rob. Great. Thanks for coming. I really appreciate it. That gradients said, looking forward to seeing you in person, when we get back to real life, hopefully the vaccines are coming on. Thanks to, uh, companies like you guys providing awesome analytics and intelligence for these drug companies and pharma companies. Now you have a few of them in your, on your client roster. So congratulations, looking forward to following up great, great area. Cool and relevant data architecture is changing. Some of it's broken. Some it's being fixed started off as one of the hot startups scaling up beautifully in this new era of cloud computing meets applications and data. So I'm John. Forget the cube. This is a cube conversation from Palo Alto, California. Thanks for watching.

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: Live from Barcelona, Spain it's theCUBE covering Cisco Live 2020, brought to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back. This is theCUBE's live coverage of Cisco Live 2020 here in Barcelona, Spain. I'm Stu Miniman. My co-host for this segment is Dave Volante. John Furrier is also in the house. We're doing a little more than three days wall-to-wall coverage. One of the big themes we're talking about this week is in this complicated world, networking, containerization, applications going through transformation. Future work simplification is something that is very important and helping us to really tease through and understand some of the integration, some of the announcements where Cisco is helping to simplify the environment, happy to welcome back to the program one of our Cube alumni, Kaustubh Das who is a Vice President of Product Management at Cisco. KD, thanks so much for joining us. >> Oh, I'm delighted to be here, it's great to be here. >> All right. So but up on the main stage, they walk through a number of the announcement. Listen Tony, I was talking about some of the pieces and two of the announcements from the main stage are under your purview. So why don't we start there, walk us through the news. >> Yeah, so there's two two major announcements. The first one's called Cisco Intersight Workload Optimizer. And what it is, it's a way to have visibility into your data center, all the way from the applications and in fact, the user journeys within those applications, all the way down through the virtualization there, through the app servers, through the container platforms down into the servers, the networks, storage lands. So you have a map of the data center. You have a common data set that the application owner and the infrastructure owner can both look at and you finally have a common vocabulary so that it helps them to troubleshoot faster so on a fast reactor way, they talking the same language not pointing fingers at each other or do things proactively to prevent problems from happening when you see a server running hot, a virtual machine running hot, an application server running hot. You can diagnose it and have that conversation before it happens. >> My understanding is that Intersight and there's also some integrations with AppDynamics there, AppD which of course we know we talk to that team at the Amazon Cloud shows a lot. So that common vocabulary spans between my hybrid and multi cloud environments. Am I getting that right? >> Correct and there's two pieces even within that. So certainly that's integrations with AppD so from AppD we get information about the application performance. We get information about the business metrics associated with the application performance. We get information about the journeys that user take within the application and then we take that data then we stitch it together with infrastructure data to map how many applications are dependent on which application servers, how many VMs are those dependent on, what does those VMs run on? What hosts are they dependent on, what networks do they Traverse, what lands do they run on? And each one of these is an API call into that element in the infrastructure stack. Each API call gives us a little bit of data and then we piece together this data to create this map of the of the entire data center. There's a multi cloud aspect to it obviously and so we also make API calls into AWS and Azure and clouds out there and we get data about utilization of the various instance types. We get data about performance from the cloud as well. >> So two announcements. Insight Workload Optimizer and HyperFlex AppDynamics, is that right or they are separate? >> HyperFlex application platform. >> Okay. >> So if we look at the, let me just put these two in context. Every enterprise is doing two things. It's trying to run application that it already hosts and then it's writing some bespoke new applications. So the first announcement, the Cisco Intersight Workload Optimizer and the integration of the AppD, that helps us be more performant for applications we're running, to have troubleshoot faster, to have reduced cost in a multiply cloud environment. The second announcement Dave, the HyperFlex application platform, it's really targeted towards developers who are writing new applications on a container platform. And for those developers, IT needs to give them a simple appliance like easy to use container as a service platform. So what HX AP HyperFlex application platform is is a container as a service platform driven from the cloud so that the developer gets the same experience that they get when they go to an AWS and and request a pod. But they get it on-prem and it's fully 100% upstream Kubernetes compliant. It's curated by us so it's very simple appliance like feel for development environments on container. >> Okay. So Insight Workload Optimizer, it really attacks the problem of sort of the mystery of what goes on inside VMs and the application team, the infrastructure team, they're not talking to each other. You're bringing a common, like you said parlance together. >> Kaustubh: Correct. >> Really so they can solve problems and that that trickles down to cost optimization as well as performance. >> It does, aha. >> And I understand hyper HyperFlex app platform it's really bringing that cloud experience to on-prem for hybrid environments. >> For our new development. So if you're developing on containers, you're probably using Kubernetes but you're probably using this entire kind of ecosystem of open source tools. >> Yeah. >> And we make that simple. >> Okay. >> We make it simple for developers to use that and variety to provide that to developers. >> Okay. since underneath, there's HyperFlex. is there still virtualization involved in there and how does this tie in with the rest of the Kubernete solutions that we were talking about with your cloud partner? >> Great, great. Great question. So yes, there is HyperFlex underneath this. So to develop, you need a platform. The best platform we think is the elastic platform that is hyper-convergence. And with type of flex, we took storage networking and compute, packaged it together, made it super simple. We're doing the same thing with Kubernetes. So it's the same concept that how do you take complex things, package it together and make it almost appliance like. We said we're doing the same thing with Kubernetes. Now Stu, the point about virtualization is a good one. A lot of container deployments today are run in virtual machines. And they run in virtual machines for good reason, for isolation, for multi-tenancy, for all these kinds of ignition. However, the promise of containers was to sort of get rid of the tax that you pay when you deploy a virtualization environment. And what we're giving out right now is no tax, no virtualization tax virtualization environment. So we have a layer over transition in there. It's designed for this use case so it does give the isolation, it does give the multi-tenancy benefits but you don't need to need to pay additionally for it if you're deploying on containers-- >> Job wise it is some KB and base type solution >> Kaustubh: Correct. >> Underneath, it makes a lot of sense if you look at the large virtualization player out there. It's been talking about how do I enable the infrastructure that's all virtualized and everything and bring them along to that journey >> Correct. >> For that bridge if you will to the environment? Sure containerization sometimes I want to be able to spin it up super fast. It leaves, it dies, but if I'm putting something in my data center, probably the characteristics I'm looking at are a little bit different. >> Correct, correct. The other thing it does and you touched on it a little bit was we have a homogeneous environment with the major clouds out there. So one of the things developers want to do is they want to develop in one place and they want to deploy in another place so develop on Amazon and deploy on-prem or Azure. We've got an environment with very native integrations so that it's natively integrated into EKS and AKS. And we facilitate that develop anywhere, deploy anywhere motion for developers who are trying to build on this. >> So okay. What does the customer have to do to consume these solutions? >> So our customer right now for this one is IT operations. It maybe helps to bit back a little bit on why we did this. I had a lot of customers come to me and they said listen, I'm IT, I'm in the business of taking shrink-wrap software, taking enterprise-grade resilient infrastructure, putting that together. I'm not in the business of getting open source drops, every week, every day, every month, putting them together by making sure all the versions line up and doing that again and again and again. So the putting together an Ikea piece part of open source software has not been traditionally the IT operator's business. So our customer is that IT operator. What they need to do is they buy a, if they may have a HyperFlex system already, or they buy a HyperFlex effect system. They add on a license for the HyperFlex application platform. They have an Intersight license. This is delivered from the cloud so Intersight manages that deployment, manages the lifecycle, manages the upgrades and so forth. If they have a state that spreads across multiple sites, Intersight is cloud-based so it can actually reach all those sites and so they're in business. >> Okay, so very low prerequisite. You just got to have the product and you can add on to it. >> Yeah, I have the HyperFlex system, add on to the license, you're done. >> So I'm curious. How unique do you see this in the marketplace? I think the keynotes this morning is that there's no other company that can actually do this. I wonder if you can sort of add some color to that and just help our viewers understand the uniqueness of Cisco's offer. >> Sure. So I think it's unique on a number of different dimensions. The first dimension is HyperFlex itself. We've had an appliance mentality to this for a long time and we really co-designed the software and the hardware to build the most performance hyper-converged system out there. We took the same approach when we went down the path of Kubernetes and building this container platform. And so it's called design software and infrastructure together. The second thing is we said we're going to be 100% upstream Kubernetes compliant right, so if you look at the major offerings out there in this space, they're often several months actually behind where the open source is, where the upstream of the sources and developers don't want that. They want the latest and greatest, they want they want to be current, right. So we are far ahead of most of the other offerings out there in terms of how close they are to their upstream commodities. The final piece is Intersight. Intersight gives us immense ability to have scale where especially if you're developing on containers and micro services, you're talking tens of thousands, many tens of thousands of N nodes, maybe more. And being in the cloud, we have the scale and we have reached so a lot of our customers have distributed assets and branches and you know, hotel chains with hotels and so forth. Intersight allows us the ability to actually deploy across a distributed asset class with with the centralized kind of provisioning. >> You see a huge uptake right now and containers generally Kubernetes, specifically. It's sort of across the board but I wonder if you could comment on how much of that demand and activity is coming from sort of the traditional IT roles versus with other hoody developers? >> Yeah, that's that's a great question. So yes, there is a on a hype cycle it's at the top of the hype cycle. Everybody's in actual adoption. I think it's pretty good as well right. So that is every company I talk to is doing something in containers, every company. But usually, it starts at the developers. It starts with like you described with the folks in the hoodies and that's great. I mean they're experimenting, they're getting this thing. What hasn't happened is it hasn't gotten mainstream. And things can mainstream is when IT picks it up. It certifies hey this is resilient, this is enterprise-grade, I can stand behind it, I can manage the lifecycle of it. That's what we're enabling here. I'm giving IT a path to mainstream containers, to mainstream Kubernetes so that the adoption kind of takes it from that pipe cycle to mainstream adoption. >> Do you see K.D. new sort of data protection approaches or thinking as containers come into play? I mean they're ephemeral, you know microservices sometimes aren't so micro. Like you say, they're running often times inside a VM. So how are people thinking about protecting containers? >> Yeah, yeah, that's a big topic in itself. I mean one of the things that we found is even though they were supposed to be ephemeral, they require persistent storage so we've implemented within hyperflex a CSI plugin that provides that persistent storage layer to containers. Then once you do that, all of the data protection mechanism of HyperFlex come into play. So within the cluster, the resiliency, the triple replication, the backups, the partnerships we have with their other data protection pairs, all of those mechanisms become available instantly and those are enterprise-grade. Those are ones that IT knows and can stand behind. Those become available to containers right away >> Great. >> But it's great, great question. >> Awesome. >> Just want to go back to when you were talking about Intersight and the reach and the scale of the solution reminds me that Cisco has a strong legacy in global environment. What I'm curious about, we've talked a little bit about Edge computing in the past. >> Kaustubh: Yes. >> Where are you seeing Edge today? Where is that going? What should we be looking at in that space when it comes to Edge? >> Yeah, no, it's a big part of our customer demand. In fact, we haven't seen I think all flash was the other technology that took place so fast but Edge has been really phenomenal in its growth rate. Over the last year, we've seen I think probably up to 15% to 20% of my engagements are in this space on at least the hyper convert side. So we see that as a big growth area. More and more deployments are happening. They're being centrally managed, deployed at the edges and so the only solution that scales to something like that is something that's based on the cloud. But it's not just enough to be based in the cloud. You've got to maintain that entire lifecycle right? You've got to make sure you can do installs, upgrades, you know OS installs, health monitoring and so as we built that Intersight platform, we've added all those capabilities to it over time So we started with hey this is a SAS-based management platform and then we added telemetry and then we said if we can actually match signatures, now machines can manage machines. So a good amount of my support calls are now machines calling each other and then fixing themselves. So that's just path-breaking from an informant Edge environment. You don't have an IT person, add an Edge location. You want to drop, ship an appliance there, and you want to be able to see it remotely. So I think it's a completely new operating model. >> I know we got to go but I want to run your scenario by K.D.'s. Do share with me from one of my breaking analysis. Look Dave, you mentioned Flash, that's what triggered me. (laughing) So think of containers and Kubernetes, think of like Flash. Remember Flash used to be the separate thing which we used to think it was a separate market and now it's just everywhere, it's embedded in everything. >> Kaustubh: Yes. >> So the same thing is going to happen with Kubernetes. It's going to be embedded in solutions. This is exactly what it is. By 2023, we're probably not going to be talking about it as a separate thing, maybe that's sooner. It's really just going to be ubiquitous, yeah. >> No, I totally agree. I think the underpinnings that you need for that future, you need a common infrastructure platform and a common management platform. So you don't want to have a new Silo creator and this has been our philosophy even for hyperconvergence. We said hey, there's going to be converging infrastructure that will be hyper converted. But they need to be the same management system, they need to be the same fabric. And so if it's Silo is not going to work. Same thing for containers you know. It's got to be the same platform in this case, it's HyperFlex. Hyperflex runs virtualization, it runs containers with HXAP. You get all of those benefits that I've talked about. It's all management insights, it's a common management platform across both of those. At some point, these are all tools in somebody's tool kit and you pick the right one for the job. >> Kaustubh, it is wonderful to hear the company that has been dominant in one of the silos for so long of course helping to bring the silos together work across the domains. Congratulations on that good news, always great to have you. >> Yeah, always great to be here, thank you. >> Dave: Thank you. >> For Dave Folante, I'm Stu Miniman back from lunch where we hear more from Cisco live in Barcelona 2020. Thank you for watching theCUBE.

>>Live from Orlando, Florida. It's the cube covering Microsoft ignite brought to you by Cohesity. Hello everyone and welcome back to the cubes live coverage of Microsoft ignite. I am your host, Rebecca Knight, along with my co host Stu Miniman. >>We are joined by Dave Totton. He is the CTO U S partner ecosystem at Microsoft. Thank you so much for coming on the course. Absolutely. Thank you for having me. So this is an incredible show. 26,000 people. We are here at the cube in the middle of the show floor. Yeah, high energy. Yeah. We're going to talk about what you do at Microsoft, but first I just want your impressions of this show in particular is incredible. I was saying as I, as I just walked in at first off 26,000 people, I think I shook 10,000 hands already. It's pretty amazing. I'll say two things. One, the partnerships and the and the groups and the companies that are building on Microsoft technology. If you just look around this room, it increasingly gets bigger. They had to take over to new halls this year. It's incredible. And the customers that we're getting at this event are extraordinary now. >>Everything from SMB small business accounts to every single enterprise company that I can think of in the strategic a thousand here in the U S they are here right now and it being a worldwide event. I hear languages, I hear people introducing each other to EDS. The energy in this room is just absolutely incredible. United nations of my, they really is. It really is. And it feels that way when you walk around the room for sure. Yeah. So you are the chief technology officer of us partner ecosystems. Talk a little bit about what you do at the company. Yeah. Yes. So what we're trying to do, obviously Microsoft being a channel company, right? We've built services and solutions through the channel, sold them through the channels since we started inception 45 years ago. So my team helps build that technology practice and those solutions with our partners. If you think about how you get access to the best and brightest engineers at the company, I'm pleased to say I actually have a bunch of those that get to work for me. >>And so every day we sit down with partners, we help them think about what technology solutions they want to create, where we see gaps in the marketplace, how do you make the biggest and best applications possible on the Microsoft stack? And then we help take those to market with our partners. So it's a, it's a wonderful experience of working with partners, both mature and sometimes immature startups. Brand new. Well, well, well Dave, one of the challenges, the surface area that Microsoft covers is so much bigger than before. You know, this is not the company that I use to get, you know, a disc, a, you know, in the mail to get to get started. You're now, you know, in the data center, of course, a strong player in SAS, in public cloud, at the edge in devices. You know, how do you manage all of those pieces and you know, give us a little snapshot. >>We feel like we're getting today at the announcement this week. Uh, really a, a rethinking of how hybrid should be thought of today and in the future. >> Yeah, I'm glad you said that. It's a really important differentiation there because if you think about our stack, we're a windows company, I've heard that before. Then we became an office company, right where the company does office and X-Box. Now we're really a services company. That's how we want to make sure that we talk to people about what we do everyday as we build services, applications and the layers that connect people to their productivity. Right? And so there were a lot of announcements this morning about Azure, which I think is phenomenal. Azure touches everything that we do, identity security monitoring, it touches everything that we absolutely do, but we bring that to life with applications like Microsoft three 65 and our productivity tools. >>There was a great demo this morning on power apps, RF, something. I'm really, really partial to having grown up a developer and then lost a lot of my technical skills, right? Like I don't get to code anymore. Something like power platform and leveraging all of the bots that we now have to democratize development work and make sure that the citizen developer can build really cool applications on our technology stack. As part of that, I will say everything for a while there moved the pendulum to Azure because it was this huge market opportunity in, there's lots of services out there and being that we're a really secure, trusted enterprise relationship, cuss a partner, a lot of people wanting to build applications and services on Azure. There's still a gigantic market opportunity within Microsoft three 65 productivity. What we're doing with exchange migrations is still a huge part of our business and then power apps and dynamics three 65 the ease of implementation and integration across all your applications, leveraging dynamics three 65 on equal opportunity. >>So, so David, you actually, I want to tease apart, you said a word services because Microsoft is still, it's a software company but it's more about the platforms that Microsoft delivers because one of the big challenges for users out there is there's just too many choices way too. There's no way anybody can listen through, you know all of the announcements this week and say, Oh okay, I'm up to speed on everything and I know what's going to work for my company. It's in many ways. It is the integration partners, the SIS, the MSPs, the channel partners, they're going to help pull those together. So, right. How do you make sure that you have, you know, comprehensive offerings that people can consume easier rather because we think that that's one of the challenges where at a certain inflection point with cloud is, remember cloud was supposed to be cheap and easy and it's neither of those shares, so how do we make sure that in today's day and age, you know, where do they turn to to be able to move their business forward, not spend hours and hours and months and years trying to figure out what the latest thing is when by the time I start doing it, the next thing's out. >>Yeah. Well, if you read a lot of the publications, it's like cloud is everywhere. The cloud adoption rate is actually fairly low across us and international business rates and there's several reasons for that, right? There's some, some trust issues there. There, there's some, I've got some on premise applications that I need to make sure that I migrate over. We launched today arc, right? Which is about really connecting all sorts of data services a, wherever your data center is, we'll come meet you. And I think that's a really nice platform story for Microsoft to tell. We've always been a customer and partner for six experience, so now we're gonna meet you where you are, where ever you are. You have the ability to manage, control, secure your it environments if you're on premise, if you're with another cloud provider, if you're in a co-location data center. >>And I think that ability to show along the the journey to the cloud and along the journey of the digital transformation where you're at, how are we going to help enable you, how are we going to make sure that we protect those end points and give you a consolidated, efficient UI to view through, right? Yeah. Actually. So there's Coobernetti's inside that arc. From my understanding what, what we've, we've been watching this trend for the last four plus years and one of the concerns is this is the Microsoft way to do things. Google has the way to do things. Every, there are lots of Kubernetes options out there and it's not a magic layer so there's still work. How does this become, you know, a driver for the ecosystem to participate and we don't end up with you all. I've got my Microsoft silo, my Amazon silo and Google silo. >>Something like arc is a great example of that though. We want to meet the customers where they are and we believe our technology stack in the long run, the different plugins to applications ISV, different services partners, the way customers want to see their data, we believe it will win out in the long run. So we're okay integrating our back end with SAP on Azure for example, row K with this data exchange with Oracle that we just announced a few months ago last year at this very event we were talking about before the SAP, Adobe, Microsoft data exchange program, right? We are officially an open services company that we believe you should have management control and identity right across all of your services, all of your data, and eventually you'll see, well Microsoft parties and our services and the ISV that are built on our services will win out in the long run. >>We really believe that. I think there's another thing about the Microsoft way. It's much different now, right? I mean I can remember still six, seven years ago where certain companies, whether it's IBM or Oracle or even red hat, we're randomize to us right now. We embrace those relationships and we embrace that data exchange because we're all trying to make sure that we optimize the experience for the customer and we think you can do it best through our our shared services environment. And the final thing I'll say is my, one of my favorite examples is our, our number one co-sale scenario out there with our ISV S is red hat. Now, if we said that when mr bomber was here or even on that five years ago, it was a much different experience there about red hat and how we embrace open source technologies, red hat, even something like OpenShift, which is their container services. >>We now enable as a first party through Azure. So it's okay, you don't have to use our Kubernetes brand. You can use third party services, put that on Azure for the most secure integrated experience possible. We absorb and we love, we embrace those relationships, right? Because we think once you get in there and you start leveraging the monitoring, security, identity provisioning, you know services are within our stack, we think you'll start adopting more and more services from Microsoft. >> So what's leading this trend? Because I mean it's so interesting that we're talking about this kind of open source approach to everything and this open brand in terms of using a little bit of Microsoft here, a little bit of AWS here. Yeah. How are is it that we're using so many though? Is that the, we're so willing to go for different companies in our lives as customers. >>If that or is it the technology industry that is pushing us? Yeah, I actually think it's the, it's the former. I think that the technology industry would love to say you're an Amazon person. You're a Microsoft shop, right? You're an open source shop. Right? And Microsoft used to be that way. Like in fact, you'll still hear some people talk about, Oh, I'm a Microsoft shop because I have windows server on premise. Now customers are looking for best in breed services, best in breed point solutions. When I started at Microsoft 15 years ago, you were a Microsoft customer and that meant you, you bought windows, you bought office, you bought window server, and then when we started launching SQL server, okay, you went to SQL server. Now it's a little bit different. You might use a security ISV solution here. You might use a data transfer or an identity management solution here. >>Microsoft has embraced that, that proliferation of purchasing based on point in time solutions. Right? Before the integration was very tricky, right? Between these applications or these different service layers. Now with something like Azure that integrates across all of these platforms, we're winning. We're winning that share because we listen. If you have an AWS data Lake out there, we're okay with that. You can secure it, you can monitor it, you can do analytics on it using Microsoft services, right? And eventually you'll see there's probably some cost benefit. There's probably some integration and some usability scenarios out there on why you'd want to migrate that to Azure. But while you get there, while you're on that journey, we're going to enable the connected infrastructure across that because customers want to buy best-in-breed, they want to buy what's available, what's easy to consume, what keeps their data secure. >>And so we're going to envelop, we're going to surround all those technologies with our service layer and one by one, right? Show the integration on that true best-in-breed connected experience that we think Microsoft can provide. So Dave, I love that message and I think it speaks to one of the reasons you said why the ecosystem is growing a, for those people that can't go through, come to the show, give us a little bit of a viewpoint. I mean, you know, we don't have an hour to go through all the options and I'm sure every partner is your favorite be the biggest or the smallest button. Give us a round it as is. So some of the areas that maybe, you know, you're hearing the most from customers that their most districts today, um, and some of the new areas that maybe might not have been here in previous years. >>Absolutely. I mean we're, we see success in the channel and frankly in the market places, you know, when we get out of talking about Azure or office three 65 or windows and we talk about what's the business outcome we're trying to drive, right? So like contract management is a, is a scenario that every customer needs, right? So something like I Certis which is a really strong contract management ISV solution that is embedded and built on dynamics three 65 is a great example of that, right? Do you want your contracts to touch your customer relationship database to get extended through outlook and exchange and then to be able to Mark up contracts with with our productivity tools, whether that's word, PowerPoint, et cetera. Contract management is an outcome that all customers need. We don't have to talk about Azure or dynamics three 65 we're talking about contract management. >>So I think is a really good example of somebody who's defined a market leading position for an actual workload, a business outcome that all customers need to drive and it just happens to be pulling through our technology. Another company, Nintex new Texas, right around the corner here, Nintex does an exceptional job of managing workflow. Any sort of scenario you need. Are you trying to hire a candidate? Are you trying to process paperwork? Are you trying to run your supply chain or inventory management? I could say go out and deploy SharePoint office three 65 go out and build an Azure database to go manage a virtual machine to spin up instances. Instead, I can say, do you have workflow that needs to be managed and connects to your database? Yes. Okay. Then go select Nintex, go see what they have to offer. They've got 30 plus offerings that you can take to catalog and customers want those outcomes. >>Customers at this day and age are getting less and less, I guess picky, I would say about the baseline infrastructure that runs all the services that they need. They're really about what's the application or the experience that integrates that secure that is easy to implement and that does a specific job to make me more efficient. Right? You spend more time with customers. I can drive more value. The fact that the 90% of those applications are powered on Azure is an okay secret, Hey, like that's okay for the channel do exist with all of these applications and services are built on Azure, built on dynamics three 65 that just happened to pull through business outcomes and if you're recommending them the Microsoft is this trusted brand and so there, that's the other part of that too. Yeah, I think so too. And I think there's a groups like Cohesity, another great organization out there that obviously we spend a lot of time and infrastructure with, right? >>Very driven to business and we're customers doing, if you think about the innovation curve that Cohesity has with their products in the marketplace, it's another great example of solve a business problem. You know, find a business problem worth, worth solving. Go out and invest in the it and infrastructure to go out and build it. Build a marketing and customer success plan around that and the fact that they can develop and take new solutions to marketplace in Azure quicker, more efficiently with more customer outcomes. Focus in that solution stack. They're using our shared services to build and have a faster time to market. Right? So it's not even just about the services that are built on Azure. It's how Azure and dynamics three 65 in modern workplace to be 65 Microsoft three 65 how we can enable partners to build solutions that solve customer's problems faster, right? And more efficient than we ever have in the past. Great. Well, Dave Totten, thank you so much for coming on the QBO is a really interesting conversation. Absolutely. Pleasure. Thank you for being here. Thank you to all of the sponsors that are out here, all the partners that are here to invest in this event. We appreciate your energy and support. I'm Rebecca Knight for Stu Miniman. Stay tuned for more of the cubes live coverage of Microsoft ignite.

>> From Cambridge, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE. Covering MIT Chief Data Officer and Information Quality Symposium 2019. Brought to you by SiliconANGLE Media. (futuristic music) >> Welcome back to Cambridge, Massachusetts everybody. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage. We go out to the events and we extract the signal from the noise. This is day two, we're sort of wrapping up the Chief Data Officer event. It's MIT CDOIQ, it started as an information quality event and with the ascendancy of big data the CDO emerged and really took center stage here. And it's interesting to know that it's kind of come full circle back to information quality. People are realizing all this data we have, you know the old saying, garbage in, garbage out. So the information quality worlds and this chief data officer world have really come colliding together. Robert Abate is here, he's the Vice President and CDO of Global IDS and also the co-chair of next year's, the 14th annual MIT CDOIQ. Robert, thanks for coming on. >> Oh, well thank you. >> Now you're a CDO by background, give us a little history of your career. >> Sure, sure. Well I started out with an Electrical Engineering degree and went into applications development. By 2000, I was leading the Ralph Lauren's IT, and I realized when Ralph Lauren hired me, he was getting ready to go public. And his problem was he had hired eight different accounting firms to do eight different divisions. And each of those eight divisions were reporting a number, but the big number didn't add up, so he couldn't go public. So he searched the industry to find somebody who could figure out the problem. Now I was, at the time, working in applications and had built this system called Service Oriented Architectures, a way of integrating applications. And I said, "Well I don't know if I could solve the problem, "but I'll give it a shot." And what I did was, just by taking each silo as it's own problem, which was what EID Accounting Firm had done, I was able to figure out that one of Ralph Lauren's policies was if you buy a garment, you can return it anytime, anywhere, forever, however long you own it. And he didn't think about that, but what that meant is somebody could go to a Bloomingdale's, buy a garment and then go to his outlet store and return it. Well, the cross channels were different systems. So the outlet stores were his own business, retail was a different business, there was a completely different, each one had their own AS/400, their own data. So what I quickly learned was, the problem wasn't the systems, the problem was the data. And it took me about two months to figure it out and he offered me a job, he said well, I was a consultant at the time, he says, "I'm offering you a job, you're going to run my IT." >> Great user experience but hard to count. >> (laughs) Hard to count. So that's when I, probably 1999 was when that happened. I went into data and started researching-- >> Sorry, so how long did it take you to figure that out? You said a couple of months? >> A couple of months, I think it was about two months. >> 'Cause jeez, it took Oracle what, 10 years to build Fusion with SOA? That's pretty good. (laughs) >> This was a little bit of luck. When we started integrating the applications we learned that the messages that we were sending back and forth didn't match, and we said, "Well that's impossible, it can't not match." But what didn't match was it was coming from one channel and being returned in another channel, and the returns showed here didn't balance with the returns on this side. So it was a data problem. >> So a forensics showdown. So what did you do after? >> After that I went into ICICI Bank which was a large bank in India who was trying to integrate their systems, and again, this was a data problem. But they heard me giving a talk at a conference on how SOA had solved the data challenge, and they said, "We're a bank with a wholesale, a retail, "and other divisions, "and we can't integrate the systems, can you?" I said, "Well yeah, I'd build a website "and make them web services and now what'll happen is "each of those'll kind of communicate." And I was at ICICI Bank for about six months in Mumbai, and finished that which was a success, came back and started consulting because now a lot of companies were really interested in this concept of Service Oriented Architectures. Back then when we first published on it, myself, Peter Aiken, and a gentleman named Joseph Burke published on it in 1996. The publisher didn't accept the book, it was a really interesting thing. We wrote the book called, "Services Based Architectures: A Way to Integrate Systems." And the way Wiley & Sons, or most publishers work is, they'll have three industry experts read your book and if they don't think what you're saying has any value, they, forget about it. So one guy said this is brilliant, one guy says, "These guys don't know what they're talking about," and the third guy says, "I don't even think what they're talking about is feasible." So they decided not to publish. Four years later it came back and said, "We want to publish the book," and Peter said, "You know what, they lost their chance." We were ahead of them by four years, they didn't understand the technology. So that was kind of cool. So from there I went into consulting, eventually took a position as the Head of Enterprise and Director of Enterprise Information Architecture with Walmart. And Walmart, as you know, is a huge entity, almost the size of the federal government. So to build an architecture that integrates Walmart would've been a challenge, a behemoth challenge, and I took it on with a phenomenal team. >> And when was this, like what timeframe? >> This was 2010, and by the end of 2010 we had presented an architecture to the CIO and the rest of the organization, and they came back to me about a week later and said, "Look, everybody agrees what you did was brilliant, "but nobody knows how to implement it. "So we're taking you away, "you're no longer Director of Information Architecture, "you're now Director of Enterprise Information Management. "Build it. "Prove that what you say you could do, you could do." So we built something called the Data CAFE, and CAFE was an acronym, it stood for: Collaborative Analytics Facility for the Enterprise. What we did was we took data from one of the divisions, because you didn't want to take on the whole beast, boil the ocean. We picked Sam's Club and we worked with their CFO, and because we had information about customers we were able to build a room with seven 80 inch monitors that surrounded anyone in the room. And in the center was the Cisco telecommunications so you could be a part of a meeting. >> The TelePresence. >> TelePresence. And we built one room in one facility, and one room in another facility, and we labeled the monitors, one red, one blue, one green, and we said, "There's got to be a way where we can build "data science so it's interactive, so somebody, "an executive could walk into the room, "touch the screen, and drill into features. "And in another room "the features would be changing simultaneously." And that's what we built. The room was brought up on Black Friday of 2013, and we were able to see the trends of sales on the East Coast that we quickly, the executives in the room, and these are the CEO of Walmart and the heads of Sam's Club and the like, they were able to change the distribution in the Mountain Time Zone and west time zones because of the sales on the East Coast gave them the idea, well these things are going to sell, and these things aren't. And they saw a tremendous increase in productivity. We received the 2014, my team received the 2014 Walmart Innovation Project of the Year. >> And that's no slouch. Walmart has always been heavily data-oriented. I don't know if it's urban legend or not, but the famous story in the '80s of the beer and the diapers, right? Walmart would position beer next to diapers, why would they do that? Well the father goes in to buy the diapers for the baby, picks up a six pack while he's on the way, so they just move those proximate to each other. (laughs) >> In terms of data, Walmart really learned that there's an advantage to understanding how to place items in places that, a path that you might take in a store, and knowing that path, they actually have a term for it, I believe it's called, I'm sorry, I forgot the name but it's-- >> Selling more stuff. (laughs) >> Yeah, it's selling more stuff. It's the way you position items on a shelf. And Walmart had the brilliance, or at least I thought it was brilliant, that they would make their vendors the data champion. So the vendor, let's say Procter & Gamble's a vendor, and they sell this one product the most. They would then be the champion for that aisle. Oh, it's called planogramming. So the planogramming, the way the shelves were organized, would be set up by Procter & Gamble for that entire area, working with all their other vendors. And so Walmart would give the data to them and say, "You do it." And what I was purporting was, well, we shouldn't just be giving the data away, we should be using that data. And that was the advent of that. From there I moved to Kimberly-Clark, I became Global Director of Enterprise Data Management and Analytics. Their challenge was they had different teams, there were four different instances of SAP around the globe. One for Latin America, one for North America called the Enterprise Edition, one for EMEA, Europe, Middle East, and Africa, and one for Asia-Pacific. Well when you have four different instances of SAP, that means your master data doesn't exist because the same thing that happens in this facility is different here. And every company faces this challenge. If they implement more than one of a system the specialty fields get used by different companies in different ways. >> The gold standard, the gold version. >> The golden version. So I built a team by bringing together all the different international teams, and created one team that was able to integrate best practices and standards around data governance, data quality. Built BI teams for each of the regions, and then a data science and advanced analytics team. >> Wow, so okay, so that makes you uniquely qualified to coach here at the conference. >> Oh, I don't know about that. (laughs) There are some real, there are some geniuses here. >> No but, I say that because these are your peeps. >> Yes, they are, they are. >> And so, you're a practitioner, this conference is all about practitioners talking to practitioners, it's content-heavy, There's not a lot of fluff. Lunches aren't sponsored, there's no lanyard sponsor and it's not like, you know, there's very subtle sponsor desks, you have to have sponsors 'cause otherwise the conference's not enabled, and you've got costs associated with it. But it's a very intimate event and I think you guys want to keep it that way. >> And I really believe you're dead-on. When you go to most industry conferences, the industry conferences, the sponsors, you know, change the format or are heavily into the format. Here you have industry thought leaders from all over the globe. CDOs of major Fortune 500 companies who are working with their peers and exchanging ideas. I've had conversations with a number of CDOs and the thought leadership at this conference, I've never seen this type of thought leadership in any conference. >> Yeah, I mean the percentage of presentations by practitioners, even when there's a vendor name, they have a practitioner, you know, internal practitioner presenting so it's 99.9% which is why people attend. We're moving venues next year, I understand. Just did a little tour of the new venue, so, going to be able to accommodate more attendees, so that's great. >> Yeah it is. >> So what are your objectives in thinking ahead a year from now? >> Well, you know, I'm taking over from my current peer, Dr. Arka Mukherjee, who just did a phenomenal job of finding speakers. People who are in the industry, who are presenting challenges, and allowing others to interact. So I hope could do a similar thing which is, find with my peers people who have real world challenges, bring them to the forum so they can be debated. On top of that, there are some amazing, you know, technology change is just so fast. One of the areas like big data I remember only five years ago the chart of big data vendors maybe had 50 people on it, now you would need the table to put all the vendors. >> Who's not a data vendor, you know? >> Who's not a data vendor? (laughs) So I would think the best thing we could do is, is find, just get all the CDOs and CDO-types into a room, and let us debate and talk about these points and issues. I've seen just some tremendous interactions, great questions, people giving advice to others. I've learned a lot here. >> And how about long term, where do you see this going? How many CDOs are there in the world, do you know? Is that a number that's known? >> That's a really interesting point because, you know, only five years ago there weren't that many CDOs to be called. And then Gartner four years ago or so put out an article saying, "Every company really should have a CDO." Not just for the purpose of advancing your data, and to Doug Laney's point that data is being monetized, there's a need to have someone responsible for information 'cause we're in the Information Age. And a CIO really is focused on infrastructure, making sure I've got my PCs, making sure I've got a LAN, I've got websites. The focus on data has really, because of the Information Age, has turned data into an asset. So organizations realize, if you utilize that asset, let me reverse this, if you don't use data as an asset, you will be out of business. I heard a quote, I don't know if it's true, "Only 10 years ago, 250 of the Fortune 10 no longer exists." >> Yeah, something like that, the turnover's amazing. >> Many of those companies were companies that decided not to make the change to be data-enabled, to make data decision processing. Companies still use data warehouses, they're always going to use them, and a warehouse is a rear-view mirror, it tells you what happened last week, last month, last year. But today's businesses work forward-looking. And just like driving a car, it'd be really hard to drive your car through a rear-view mirror. So what companies are doing today are saying, "Okay, let's start looking at this as forward-looking, "a prescriptive and predictive analytics, "rather than just what happened in the past." I'll give you an example. In a major company that is a supplier of consumer products, they were leading in the industry and their sales started to drop, and they didn't know why. Well, with a data science team, we were able to determine by pulling in data from the CDC, now these are sources that only 20 years ago nobody ever used to bring in data in the enterprise, now 60% of your data is external. So we brought in data from the CDC, we brought in data on maternal births from the national government, we brought in data from the Census Bureau, we brought in data from sources of advertising and targeted marketing towards mothers. Pulled all that data together and said, "Why are diaper sales down?" Well they were targeting the large regions of the country and putting ads in TV stations in New York and California, big population centers. Birth rates in population centers have declined. Birth rates in certain other regions, like the south, and the Bible Belt, if I can call it that, have increased. So by changing the marketing, their product sales went up. >> Advertising to Texas. >> Well, you know, and that brings to one of the points, I heard a lecture today about ethics. We made it a point at Walmart that if you ran a query that reduced a result to less than five people, we wouldn't allow you to see the result. Because, think about it, I could say, "What is my neighbor buying? "What are you buying?" So there's an ethical component to this as well. But that, you know, data is not political. Data is not chauvinistic. It doesn't discriminate, it just gives you facts. It's the interpretation of that that is hard CDOs, because we have to say to someone, "Look, this is the fact, and your 25 years "of experience in the business, "granted, is tremendous and it's needed, "but the facts are saying this, "and that would mean that the business "would have to change its direction." And it's hard for people to do, so it requires that. >> So whether it's called the chief data officer, whatever the data czar rubric is, the head of analytics, there's obviously the data quality component there whatever that is, this is the conference for, as I called them, your peeps, for that role in the organization. People often ask, "Will that role be around?" I think it's clear, it's solidifying. Yes, you see the chief digital officer emerging and there's a lot of tailwinds there, but the information quality component, the data architecture component, it's here to stay. And this is the premiere conference, the premiere event, that I know of anyway. There are a couple of others, perhaps, but it's great to see all the success. When I first came here in 2013 there were probably about 130 folks here. Today, I think there were 500 people registered almost. Next year, I think 600 is kind of the target, and I think it's very reasonable with the new space. So congratulations on all the success, and thank you for stepping up to the co-chair role, I really appreciate it. >> Well, let me tell you I thank you guys. You provide a voice at these IT conferences that we really need, and that is the ability to get the message out. That people do think and care, the industry is not thoughtless and heartless. With all the data breaches and everything going on there's a lot of fear, fear, loathing, and anticipation. But having your voice, kind of like ESPN and a sports show, gives the technology community, which is getting larger and larger by the day, a voice and we need that so, thank you. >> Well thank you, Robert. We appreciate that, it was great to have you on. Appreciate the time. >> Great to be here, thank you. >> All right, and thank you for watching. We'll be right back with out next guest as we wrap up day two of MIT CDOIQ. You're watching theCUBE. (futuristic music)

>> Announcer: Live from Las Vegas, it's The Cube, covering IBM Think 2018, brought to you by IBM. >> Welcome back to The Cube. We are live in sunny Las Vegas at the inaugural IBM Think 2018 event. I'm Lisa Martin with Dave Vellante. Dave, this weather has got to beat Boston hands down, right? >> It was beautiful yesterday, about 15 degrees in Boston, snowy. >> So you thawed out since you've gotten here? >> I took the snowshoes out, actually. Life makes lemons. >> Exactly, and we have another cold-weather guest who's probably thawing out as well, Ranjana Young, the senior vice president of Enterprise Data Services from Northern Trust, welcome. >> Thank you, thanks for having me. >> We're excited to chat with you. You have a role at Northern Trust, and your mission is all-around data, five-core competencies, including data governance and stewardship, data quality, master data management, enterprise integration with data platforms. Tell us a little bit about your role, how long you've been doing that, and really what this focus on data is enabling for Northern Trust. >> Sure, I want to talk first about our mission as you had mentioned. I think it was critical to establish a broad mission for Northern Trust. We wanted to make sure that we establishing an enterprise data program that enabled our customer needs and overall our customer experience, but also truly helped support our regulatory needs that we had, and it was critical to establish those two as the main goals, not just one or the other. And then the role, I call myself a change agent because establishing capabilities that you talked about, it is difficult to do, with a lot of legacy that we have. The firm has been in existence for 128 years To establish a data-driven culture was very different. I think we were known to do provide good business solutions, but a lot with the gut, given that we were good at it, but how do you make sure that you change that culture and have a relationship managers and others really think differently and use data to provide those solutions to our clients. >> I remember when I met Inderpal Bhandari, I'm sure you know him, and he said that he has a framework for a data leader, and he said there are five things a data leader has to do to get started, and three are in parallel, or sorry, three are linear, two are in parallel. I don't know if you've heard this rap, but I'd like to sort of explore them and see how your three are generally. He said you start with understanding how the organization monetizes data, not directly, maybe selling data, but how it contributes, and then the next one was sort of data access and then data quality. Those are the sort of sequential activities, and then the parallel ones were form relationships with a line of business and then re-skill. So those are his five. How did you approach it, what was different, what was similar, what were some of the challenges that you had in doing that? >> Sure. If I had to think about kind of, to correlate some of the components of the strategy, skills is an important thing. When I started establishing the team three years ago, it was critical that we had to bring some of the core skills within the firm because they had the business capabilities, they understood the systems, they understood kind of the skeletons that were in the closets and knew the culture and also embraced the challenges and still could find solutions. And then you had to bring external folks that really had the capability to drive that change, had the mastery of management skills to really support and set up an account domain and a party domain, a reference data domain, especially an asset domain, et cetera. So we had to look at kind of a conglomerate of individuals to do that. And then if you look at kind of where was the starting point in terms of really establishing the program was, we were going through a transformation to really re-platform a lot of our legacy, whether it was our valuation system or our cash platform, others, and data was a thread throughout all of those programs, so it was critical to establish and think and take bite-sized chunks, it was important to think about, okay, throughout all the programs, what is the important data that we could kind of understand, so we focused quite a bit on initially looking at critical data and looking at critical data from a master data perspective, so asset data, which is very critical to the work that we do on the institutional side. As you know, we had a management asset servicing company. Data is an asset for us, we enrich the data. We provide services around that today, and have been, and so embedding data governance through that process was important, and also our clients were really looking for the enriched data but also were looking for clean information but also were looking for where did that data come from? Where does the definition of this data? So kind of giving them that external catalog of here's the data, but here's the enriched data and here's the metrics for data quality around it, and then here's the definitions for it. So to some extent, that drove change because of customers were looking for it, and a lot of the capabilities that were foundational to the firm, we're starting to externalize, especially the meta-data catalog, et cetera. >> So if I could play that back, so you started the team, all right, you said, okay, I need to build a team. I think I heard that, and then the data quality, and then presumably, okay, who has access to this data? Is that about right? >> So I started with the mission to say, we have to do this for both arms, the left arm being our customer experience and making sure that we change the way we're doing our work there, or enhance the work so that our customer experience was better, and then obviously the regulatory, make sure that we need the regulatory. So for that, we needed five core competencies. We knew that we had to establish a role of the steward, a role of the custodian, so the team started to become very critical then, and then we knew that we had some gaps in our master data management capability, a complete gap in having integrated data platforms. I notice I've talked a little bit about we established a whole strategy and architecture for ING. I totally relate to how we had to do the same. Each silo did their own particular thing. The management did their own thing. >> David: By data. >> The institutional side did their own thing. Asset management was, I would say, a lot more mature. So I would say if you were to think about it, it's establishing the mission and establishing the team. >> And then, just one last follow-up. The services that you're providing, data services, those are delivered through your organization, the IT organization, what's the practice? >> We have a partnership, a very collaborative partnership that we work together. The technology team does all the build for the work, we work collaboratively to kind of build a strategy of what solutions need to be first versus later, given the client priorities and our institutional side, our business unit priorities, so that's a collaborative effort, working together. >> So speaking of collaboration, you mentioned earlier that it was really key to have both the veterans within Northern Trust and their expertise that you said kind of the skeletons, that they know where things are buried, as well as that maybe external, you might say more fresh perspective. You also talked about, we chatted before we went live, about governance. Seems like what you guys have done is kind of flipped governance from being viewed as potentially an inhibitor to really empowering, being an empowering capability. Can you tell us how you've leveraged data governance to empower a data-driven culture within a business that is 128, I think, years old, you said? >> Yes, that's right. So, for us, I think that while we were establishing the program, it was very critical to understand kind of the challenges on the institutional side first because they had the maximum number of challenges with data. Again, because we're an asset servicing company, a data is an asset, we enrich that information and provide that information, but what was happening was it was taking us so much longer to provide these solutions to our clients, so we've embedded, now, the data governance framework as a part of that solution, and our clients are seeing the value, so if you look at one of the customers that we're working with, we actually have externalized our catalog where they understand now what data that they're receiving, and you're speaking the same language, and that was not the case before. But again, as I said, if we didn't do the foundational work of cataloging the information, understanding what the data is, where the data is, what the data assets are, we just couldn't have done that, so it's really paying off because of that. >> How has that affected your ability to be prepared for GDPR, which obviously went into effect last year, the fines go into effect in May of this year? What was the relationship there? >> So we have worked very, very closely with our chief privacy officer, and we've really done a phenomenal job of identifying where our highly sensitive data assets are. We're in the process of cataloging all of them through the unified governance framework that we've established, so we leverage IBM's IGC NIA to do all that work, and the lineage all the way to the authentic source, which is something the regulators definitely are looking for, so are we fully, completely done yet? No, so we're in that journey, and with unstructured data, we're looking at discovery tools to kind of provide that. We have a solution that's a little manual at this point, but we hope to kind of make more progress on that side. >> I got to ask you, so around 17%, the data suggests, 17% of the IT, technology industry is women, but I was at an IBM, it was a Data Divas breakfast that I crashed, I snuck in, one of the few guys there. >> Oh, very cool. And there was a stat that around 30% of data leaders are women, I don't know, it was a sort of a small sample, who knows? Sounded a little high. Somebody said it's because it's a thankless job and women have to take it on, so thoughts on women in tech, women in this role, perspectives. >> So I am excited to meet a few here at the conference. That statistic is pretty high that you're stating. I don't see that. >> David: It's outside that. >> In the industry, I do find myself sometimes as a lone warrior, at least in the industry forums, but I think it's growing. I think especially women in technology, women in leadership on the line of business side is growing, and Northern Trust, I'm very proud to say, is big around diversity and providing opportunities to women, so from that perspective, I think I'm excited that women are taking interest in data, yes, it is a very hard job, so I think, I feel like we are organized, we get a lot done at the same time, so I think it's really helped. >> Other than it's the right thing to do, are there other sort of business dimensions? Is it Mars versus Venus? Are there sort of enrichments that a woman leader brings to the equation, or is it just because it's the right thing to do? >> I've seen tenacity women have. No offense to anyone, I think the higher tenacity to be persistent. >> I don't take offense. >> To be methodical, to be methodical, and also to have the hard discussions in a very factual way sometimes, but also in, yes, this is the right thing to do, but is there ways we could make this change happen in a systematic, bite-size chunk way. Sometimes I think those coercive conversations help a lot more than the others, and I think, to me, I would say tenacity, tenacity. >> I love that word. I have to say, that's a word that's oftentimes associated with males. A lot of times a tenacious woman, it's a different adjective, right? It's a term, I don't know, Lisa, what your experience has been, so that's good, a good choice of words in my view. >> I've heard pushy before, and I think what they really meant >> David: There you go, okay. >> Is persistence. (laughs) >> That's right. >> A man is tenacious, a woman is pushy. You hear that a lot. >> Right, I think it's persistence. So last question for you. Here we are at the inaugural IBM Think 2018. You guys are an IBM Analytics Global Elite Partner. Can you talk to us a little bit about that strategic partnership and what it means for Northern Trust? >> This partnership has really helped us tremendously in the last three years while we were putting the strategy to action while operationalizing data governance, while operationalizing a lot of the capabilities we thought we would have but really kind of bringing that to life. We're also really excited because lot of the feedback that we've provided has gone into kind of redoing some of the products within IBM, so we've definitely partnered and done lot of testing for some of the ones, the beta versions, and it's also helped us, I think, sometimes it's been like a marriage. We've had hard times getting through certain hurdles, but it really has paid off, and I think the other thing is we've really operationalized governance to the core at Northern Trust. I think IBM is also seeing value in sharing that our story with others because others have started the journey but may have taken certain different approaches to making that happen, so all in all, I think that the unified governance framework has really helped us, and I think we really love the partnership. >> As a client, what's on their to-do list? What's on IBM's to-do list for you? >> So I think one of the things that we've been talking quite a bit is we have a new CIO, and he's really interested in the cloud strategy, I know you've been talking about that. Again, we're a bank, so due to regulation there's strategies in terms of private versus public cloud. That's one conversation we'll definitely want to take further. We want more integrated tooling within the unified governance platform. That's something that's been a topic that we've discussed quite a bit with them. AI, machine learning, robotics is huge for us, so how do we leverage Watson much more? We've done a few POCs, how do we really operationalize and make sure that that's something that we do more of, so I think I would say those three. >> So sounds like a very symbiotic relationship. >> Ranjana: It is. >> Slash marriage that you have. Ranjana, we want to thank you for joining us and sharing how really kind of you're exhibiting the term change agent in a tenacious way. >> Okay, thank you. >> I feel like I want to say I'm flanked between two data divas, you don't take offense at that, do you? >> No, not at all. It's a compliment. >> You crashed an event. I'm seeing a new >> I like that. >> Twitter handle come up here. We want to thank you so much again for stopping by and sharing. Congrats on your success, and we hope you have a great time here. Enjoy the sunshine! Maybe bring some back to Chicago. >> Will do, will do, yeah. Thanks again, very much. >> And for Dave Vellante, I'm Lisa Martin. We want to encourage you to check out thecube.net to watch all of the videos that we have done so far and will be doing at IBM Think 2018, and of course on all of the shows that we do. Also, head over to siliconangle.com. That's our media site where you're going to find pretty much in near real time synopsis and stories on not just what we're doing here but everything around the globe. Again, for Dave Vellante, I'm Lisa Martin, live from IBM Think 2018 in Vegas. We'll be right back after a short break with our next guest.

(upbeat music) >> Hey welcome back everybody, Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're in our Palo Alto studios. The conference season is just about ready to take off so we still have some time to get some Cube conversations in before we hit the road and spend the next several days and weeks and months in Las Vegas, Orlando, and points on the compass. So, we're excited to have our next guest. She's Lynn Lucas, Cube alumni, CMO of Cohesity, Lynn, great to see you again. >> Jeff, super to be here for the first time in Palo Alto. >> Yeah, how do you like the studio? >> I love it! >> It's a little different than the vibe at the conferences. >> A little quieter-- >> A little quieter. >> Than the conferences but I like it. >> Well good, good, welcome, so you have relatively recently joined a new company, Cohesity, so congratulations on that. >> Thanks, yeah. >> And just curious, one, give us just a quick overview on Cohesity but more importantly, what did you see that attracted you, to get you to join? >> Great, yeah, so Cohesity, just joined at the beginning of January, having a blast. And really what I saw that attracted me to Cohesity was three things. It's an incredible founder, Mohit Aron, who was formerly the CTO and co-founder of Nutanix called the Father of Hyperconvergence and before that the lead developer at Google File System. And, he really is doing what a lot of Silicon Valley is known for, which is he took a step back and is looking at this space in the data center that we call secondary data, back up, archives, replications, test dev, analytics, and said, "You know what? "The world doesn't need a better point solution. "We need to take a step back and look "at how this gold mine of data can be used "in a much more efficient way." Because data is after all, is what's powering the worlds businesses and their differentiation. So, the technology, Mohit himself is a founder and then it's just an incredible start up culture. It's fast growing, we're having fun every day, I love going to work. >> It's amazing, I was just doing some background and you guys have raised $160 million. The list of leadership and board and advisory is pretty amazing. It's like a who's who from this industry. So he pulled together a helluva team. >> He really has and you know Carl Eschenbach, former COO of VM Ware is on our board. >> Cube alumni, Patrick Rogers. >> Rob Salmon. >> Cube alumni, we could go on and on. >> Yes, Ned App, Dan Wormehoven, Google Ventures is invested, Sequoia. I think Sequoia said we're the fastest growing company in their portfolio. We grew 600% year over year last year, 40 to 50% growth in new customers every quarter, cause they're is just such a pent up demand to really solve some of the problems that haven't been addressed over the last, really, couple of decades for the inefficiencies and how all of this data for these secondary workloads is managed. >> So you got an interesting graphic on the website talking about secondary data. And that it's really the ugly part of the iceberg below the water and significantly bigger, heavier, and more expensive to manage than the primary data. So I wonder if you could take us into that a little bit deeper, how did it get to be such a problem? And why is this new approach a better way to attack that problem? >> Sure and an iceberg is really kind of a good metaphor when you think about the data center. You know, we've got our production, and applications, primary storage and that's what's floating above the water and we see that 20% but below is another 80%. And, according to most industry analysts, IDC, Gartner, that represents not just 80% of the data but 80% of the cost. On average, IDC says every organization has 12 to 14 copies of each piece of data. And that happens because what's grown up over time is point solutions for all the various work loads. You got one set of hardware and software for backup. You've got another set for test dev. You've got another set for analytics. There's been no sharing of the data. There's no single infrastructure, knowing even or operations knowing what you have and being able to tell you where the inefficiencies are and so you think about a developer in retail or in a bank organization, they're requesting a copy of a data to develop the new applications that copy gets instantiated. They do their work, never gets erased, just like in our consumer life. >> Right, Right. >> Do you ever erase photos off your phone? >> I can't tell you how many copies and copies and copies of, cause it's, cause it's often-- >> It's easy. >> You figure, it's easier to make another copy just in case, right? >> Exactly, so that never goes away and then you've got yet another copy for the next time they need an updated set. And so, this has been multiplying and it creates just an incredible expense to maintain and operate. And it also creates a lot of risk these days for organizations because of new regulations like GDPR. >> Right. >> Where are all those copies of personal information from e-use citizens, people don't even know anymore. >> Right, and then there's, you know, two other big factors that have come into play in recent years. Software to find and public cloud. Two really big, huge tidal waves of change that were not accommodated in prior architectures so you guys, obviously, saw that opportunity glommed on and are now offering something that can take care of the different types of needs based on what type of infrastructure you need, really not at a company level. But really at the application or the workload level right? >> Yeah, so I think it's a great point and I won't claim any credit for this, this is Mehit and his team of developers and really, as you pointed out, what do we see organizations looking for now? They now realize that, hey, if I can get a software to find platform, a lot of commodity hardware does a really good job for me and I want to have that flexibility to choose, you know, what vendor I might be using. So, Mohit developed a software to find platform that addresses, how do you bring all of these data and these workloads together in one platform so I can have a consistent set of infrastructure and a consistent operational model and, because of his heritage, working at Google, being one of the lead developers for Google File System, it comes with this cloud first mentality. So this is not a bolt on with a gateway to get to Amazon or get to Azure. >> Right. >> This is a software platform that natively understands and spans both your private cloud and your on premises data center and the public cloud. So it gives an IT organization the flexibility to choose how do I want to use the public cloud with my private data center and not have to think really about, kind of, that plumbing below. >> Right. >> Below the water line anymore. >> Because, because there is no either or, right? It's really workload specific where that particular workload lives and the storage that supports that. >> Yeah, so so let me be specific about what Cohesity offers. It's software defined and we offer a appliance so that it's very easy for an organization to go in and say, you know what, data protection, backup frankly, legacy architectures built 20 years ago, before the advent of the cloud. Biggest pain point we see right now can move in a Cohesity hyperconverged appliance and solve that problem and gain massive business benefits right away. We offer global deduplication, very advanced compression and erasure coding and we have customers that are telling us that they're seeing eight to one, ten to one, even 14 to one ratios that really then give them-- >> 14:1 ratio and a reduction of capacity to store the same amount of stuff? >> Versus from some of the current customer, or current vendors that they have been using, from what I would call these legacy architectures. >> Right, right, that's pretty significant. >> So they're getting an amazing storage efficiency. Then, they often next say, wow I'd like to give my developers the flexibility of spinning this up in the cloud. So we offer a cloud edition that allows them to choose whether they want to operate on Azure on Amazon on Google cloud and be able to move that data into the cloud, use it for a test dev instance, but again all under the same software interface all looks like one operating system. No bolt on gateway to manage. >> Right, so you get it-- >> And then. >> I'm sorry go ahead. >> And I was going to say in the third part is many organizations obviously have remote offices, branch offices so there's a virtual edition too. >> Right. So I'm just curious on the cloud side. So Andy Chassis' been on a ton of times, great guy. >> Yes. >> You know, one of the promises of cloud is spin up what you need and spin down when you - don't, as you said. >> Right. >> Nobody ever spins anything down so are you seeing customers have the same type of, of economic impact in managing their storage that's in the public clouds? Because now they're actually spinning down what they don't need or consolidating more efficiently. >> Yeah, so I think that we've seen, in general, in the industry that if you likened the data center it'd kind of been a messy garage where there was a lot of things in the garage and you weren't really sure what it was. A lot of folks, I would say five plus years ago, were like, kind of ran to the cloud cause it was clean and new and it was like that new shiny storage box. >> Right. >> You know, that you see parked on people's driveways sometimes and then realize that there can be a lot of expense, cause you're really replicating in the cloud, some of these same silos if you're not careful. >> Right. >> We're going to help customers avoid that. I think customers are much more sophisticated now than say five years ago. And they're now looking at what's the best way for me to incorporate public cloud. >> Right. >> So really common use case right now would be what I mentioned before test dev, let's move something there, get the benefit of the compute, do some analytics on it, build some new application, maybe get spun down after that but another really common use case is a lot of organizations worried about disaster recovery, bringing the cloud in as their second site. Because that's a very efficient way for them to do that and not build yet another on premises data center. >> Silo. >> Yeah. >> So, the company's been around, the a round is 2013, you're coming in as a CMO. You're brand new and fresh, what's your charter? You know, you didn't come in at a low level you came in with the C, what are you excited about, what you know, again why did they bring you in and what are you going to bring to the table and what are your priorities for the rest of 2018 and beyond? I still can't believe we're a third, a quarter of the way through 2018. >> Yes we are. We're going to be at those shows pretty soon. >> (laughing) I know, they're comin'. >> They are, so I'm here really to build on the good work that the team has done and I'm just really thrilled to be at the company. I think what my charter is is to continue the company's expansion. So, they've seen tremendous growth and in fact, we've just really launched into Asia so we now have a large sales presence in Australia, New Zealand and we're going to continue to expand into the rest of Asia. Significantly expanded in Europe as well recently. So part of my charter is to bring the marketing programs to all of these new regions and in general, to up our awareness level. I think Cohesity has an incredible opportunity to really be one of those companies that changes the data center landscape. >> Right. >> And I want to make sure the world knows about the incredible benefits the customers are seeing already with us. And do that in a way that really features the customer voice. I've been on theCUBE before and I talked about that. For me, that is all about ensuring that the customer voice is really front and center and so hopefully we'll bring a Cohesity customer here. >> Good, well and I just want to ask you kind of from a marketing professional in B2B business, it's a really challenging time in terms of, of the scarcity now is not information, which it used to be. Now the scarcity is in attention and people can get a lot of information before they ever make it to your website within peer groups and hopefully watching some Cube interviews, et cetera. So I'm just curious to get your perspective from a Chief Marketing Officer how are you kind of looking at the challenges of getting the message out. It's a really different world than it was years and years ago. >> Yeah. >> People aren't reading white paper so much and it's a different challenge. >> Yeah, and it's part of the fun actually in being in marketing and being in marketing and tech because a lot of that cool technology for marketing is invented right here in the Valley too. So, you know, I think that word of mouth still actually plays an incredible role and it is that customer voice but bringing that out in ways that are accessible for customers. You and I know, we're all very ADD, very time sliced-- >> Right. >> And so those small moments on social media where you can feature bits of information that get people's attention. In fact, we're running something right now, which I think has a lot of legs because at the end of the day I'm selling to a human. >> Right? >> Right. >> Right. >> So we've got B2B monikers but at the end of the day, folks are people that laugh, they cry, they want to have fun. >> Right. >> So we're running a break up with your legacy backup campaign right now. And I encourage the audience to go check it out. It's pinned on our Twitter feed at Cohesity but it pokes a little bit of fun at how you might break up with your older vendor-- >> Right. >> And that's a moment that we think captures folks attention and gets them interested so that maybe they do want to move down and read the white paper and so forth. So I look to do that through combinations of just, you know, bringing out Cohesity's incredible voice, our customer voice, and then sharing it on social because that's the way people really get their information these days. >> Right, this is really interesting cause I think the voice of the customer or the trusted referral's actually more valuable now because it's just a different problem. Before, I couldn't get information, so that was a good valuable sort, now it's really that person's my trusted filter cause I have too much information. >> Right. >> I can't, I can't take it in so that continues to be that trusted filter and conduit so I could just focus on my peers and not necessarily try to read everything that comes out. >> Exactly, you know, so as an example, Manhattan Associates is one of Cohesity's customers and we've been super thrilled to be able to feature them you know, through social, through our website, and let them talk about the benefits of moving to the platform and what they've seen. And I know, I hate to say it, but Gartner as well continues to be an incredible influence on most organizations and, but we're pleased to say that our customers chose Cohesity and we won the Gartner peer insights for data center backup software, just about a month ago. So, that again is another example of customers looking at the options that they have and voting with their voice and we'll continue to drive that message out in the variety of ways and hopefully get people engaged so that they can see that there really is a completely different way of managing your secondary data and getting a lot better efficiencies and a lot lower cost. >> Yeah, good exciting times, challenging times. The old marketing mantra, right? Half of my marketing budget's wasted, I just don't know which half. (laughing) So, you know you got to cover all your bases from the old school Gartner to the new school, having some fun, and some comedy. Well Lynn, really fun to sit down and spend a few minutes and to get deeper into the Cohesity story. >> Likewise, thank you and I'll be seeing you in Orlando, Vegas, and those other points on the compass. >> Alright, she's Lynn Lucas, I'm Jeff Frick. You're watchin' theCUBE from the Palo Alto studios. Great to see ya, we'll see ya next time. Thanks for watchin'. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live from midtown Manhattan it's theCUBE covering Big Data New York City 2017. Brought to you by Silicon Angle Media and it's ecosystem sponsors. (upbeat techno music) >> Hello, everyone. Welcome back to theCUBE's exclusive coverage of Big Data NYC for all the access. It's our fifth year doing our own event in New York City. The hashtag is BigDataNYC. Also, in conjunction with Strata Hadoop, used to be called Hadoop World, then Strata Hadoop. Now, it's called Strata Data as they try to grope to where the future's going to be. A lot of hype over there. A lot of action. But here as where we do the intimate interviews and the stories. I'm John Furrier, co-host of theCUBE with Emma McGrattan who is the Senior Vice President of Engineering at Actian. Great to have you on. >> Thanks for having me. >> We love having everyone from Ireland cause the accidents great traction. So, I appreciate you coming on. Have a beer later at the pub. New York's got to lot of great Irish pubs. In all seriousness, we've had Actian on before. Mike Hoskins has been on. We had Jeff Veis on yesterday giving us the marketing angle of hybrid data that you guys are doing. What's under the hood? Because Actian has a lot of technology in their portfolio through how you guys had your growth strategy. But now as the world wants to bring it together you're seeing some real critical trends. >> Emma: Right. >> A lot of application development where data's important. Huge amount of security challenges. People are trying to build out and bring security out of IT. And then you've got all this data covering stuff. That's just on the top line. Then you got IOT. So, people are busy. Their plates are full, and data's the center of it. So, what are you guys doing to bring all of Actian together? >> Emma: That's a great question, perfect question for Actian. So, we have in Actian a number of products in the portfolio. And we believe that best fit product. So, if you're doing something like graph database, it doesn't make sense to put a Vector in Hadoop solution against that. And we've got the right fit technology for what we're doing. And for IOT we've got an embedded database that's as small as 30 megs. So, I've got PowerPoint files that are bigger than this database. You put it in a device, set it, it can run for 20 years. You never have to touch it. But all that data that's being generated typically you're generating it because you want, at some point, to be able to analyze it. And we've gone in the portfolio and Vector in Hadoop has the ability to take that data from the IOT sources and perform very high-speed analytics on that. So, the products that we have within the portfolio are focused around data integration, so pulling data into an environment where you're going to perform analysis or otherwise operationalize that data, data management. A lot of our customers are just doing CRM, ERP applications on our product platforms. And then the analytics is where I get really excited cause there's so much happening in the analytics world in terms of new types of applications being built, in terms of real time requirements, in terms of security and governance that you're talking about in reference in your question. And we've got a unique solution that can address all of those areas in our Vector in Hadoop products. So, it's interesting that we see the name Hadoop coming out of the show this week because we see that the focus on Hadoop kind of moving to the background and where the real focus is around the data and not so much-- >> And the business value. >> I hate to sound cliché about outcomes but we were joking on theCUBE yesterday and kind of can't coin the term, "Outcomes as a service." Which is kind of a goof on the whole, "It's about the outcomes." Which is a cliché in tech. But that really is the truth. At the end of the day, you've got a business goal. But the role of data now in real time is key. You're seeing people want real time. Not real time response with old data, they want the real data. So, people are starting to look at data as a really instrumental part of the development process. Similar with DevOps did with infrastructure as code, people want data to be like code. >> Emma: Exactly. >> And that is a hard >> Architectural challenge. So, if you go into your customer base what do you guys tell them? And I was going to the hybrid cloud as the marketing message. But I have challenged, I'm the CXO. I'm the CDO. I'm the CIO. I'm the CFO, COO, whatever the person making these huge, sweeping operational cost decisions. What's the architecture? Cause that's what people are working on right now. And how do you present that? >> Right. So, we recognize the fact that everybody's got a very distributed environment. And part of the message around hybrid data is that data can be generated pretty much any place. You may be generating data in the cloud with your own custom applications. You may be using salesforce.com or NetSuite or whatever. And you've got your on-premise sources of data generation. And what we provide in Actian is the ability to access all of that data in real time, and make it part of the applications that you're deploying that is going to be able to react in real time to changes. You don't want to be acting on yesterday's data because things have happened, things have moved on. So, the importance of real time is not lost on Actian. And all of these solutions that we bring together enable that real time analysis of what's happening in every part of the environment. So, it's hybrid in terms of the type of data that you're working with. It's hybrid in terms of it could be generated in the cloud, in any cloud or on-premise, and being able to pull all of that together an perform real time analysis is incredibly important to generate value from the data. >> Emma, I want to get your thoughts on a comment that I heard last night and then multiple times but the same pattern, they don't get it. "They" could be the venture capitalists as part of the startup. Or the customer has, "Oh, this is the way we do it." There's definitely things that are out there Silo's Legacy things that are-- Still not going away, and we know that. But how do you go into a customer saying look, there's a whole new way of doing things right now. It's not necessarily radical lift and shift or rip and replace. Whatever word you want to use. There's always a word that, you don't like rip and replace, we'll say lift and shift. It's the same thing, right? >> Right. >> You don't want to do a lot of incremental operational wholesale changes. >> Right. >> But you want to do incremental value now. How do you go in and say, "Look, this is the way you want to think about real time in your architecture." Because I don't necessarily want to change my operational mindset for the sake of Salesforce and all these different data sources. How do you guys have that conversation? >> So, Actian is unique in that we have a consumer base that goes back 20, 30 years. I personally will be at Actian 25 years in December. So, we've got customers that are running our I'd like to call them Legacy products, but they're products that powering their business every day of the week. And we've also got incredibly innovative product that we're on the bleeding edge. And what we've done in our recent release of Actian X is do combined bleeding edge technology with this more mature and proven technology. So, at Actian X you've got the OLTP database that was Ingres and now got rebranded because it's got new capabilities. And then we've taken the engine from Actian Vector product, and brought that into Actian X so that you can do in real time analysis of your OLTP data. And we act in real time to changes in the data. And it's interesting that you talk about real time because it means different things to different people. So, if you're talking to somebody doing risk analysis, real time is milliseconds. If you're talking to some customers, real time is yesterday's data and that's fine. And what we've done with Actian X is to provide that ability to determine for yourself what real time means to you and to provide a solution that enables you to respond in real time. Now, bringing analytics into what is a more traditional OLTP database, and kind of demonstrating for them some of the new capabilities it enables and opens up other opportunities as far as we can have conversations about maybe backing up that dataset to the cloud. Somebody that may have been risk averse and not looking at cloud all of a sudden is looking at cloud, looking at analytics, and then kind of opening up new opportunities for us. And new opportunities for them cause the data, as they say, is the new oil. >> That's great, great. And you guys have a good customer base to draw from. So, you've got to bring in the shiny new toy but make it work with existing. So, it sounds like you been like an extraction layer that you're building on tech that was very useful and is useful, by decoupling it with new software that adds value. Is it an extraction layer of sorts? >> We don't think of it as an extraction layer but certainly one could think of it that way because it's ... Well, yeah it's-- >> John: It's a product. You basically take the old product and bring new stuff to it. >> Exactly. >> Okay, so I got to ask you about the trend around IOT. Because IOT is one of those things right now that's super hype. And I think it's going to be even more hype. But security has been a big problem and I hear a lot honestly, certainly IOTs on the agenda. Industrial IOT is kind of the low-hanging fruit. They go to that first. But no one wants to be the next Equifax. So, there's a lot of security stuff that causes, plus there's other things going on they got to take care of. How do you guys talk about the security equation where you can come in and put in a reliable workable solution and still make the customer's feel like they're moving the ball down the field. >> So, that's one of the benefits that we have of being in the industry for as long as we have. We have very deep understanding as to what security requirements are. In terms of providing capabilities within the product to do things like control who can access what data and to what degree. Can they update it? Can they only read it? Providing the ability to encrypt the data. So, for many usecases the data is so sensitive that you'd always want to encrypt it when it's stored. You'd want any traffic coming in and out of the environment to be encrypted. Being able to audit everything that's happening in the environment, who's issuing what queries and from where and to set alarms or something if somebody attempts to access data that they shouldn't be attempting to access. So, taking all of those capabilities together, we're then able to look at things like GDPR. What are the requirements for securing the data? And we've got all the capabilities within the product. And we've got the credibility cause we've been doing this for 30 years, that we can secure these environments. We can conform to the various standards and mandates that are put in place for data security. So, we have a very strong story to tell-- >> John: What is your position >> John: On GDPR? Obviously, you've got a super important, I call it the Y2K that actually is real cause you have there compliance issues. There's a lot of, obviously, political things going on but this is a real problem, about to move fast as a solution. What are you guys offer there? >> Equifax was a prime example of why GDPR is incredibly important. So, for Actian, and you know, I talked about the capabilities we provide with regard to securing data, and secure access to that data. And when it comes to GDPR, a lot of it is around process. So, what we're doing is guiding our customers and making sure that they have secure processes in place. Putting all of the smarts into the technology, and then having somebody doing an offline backup on a CD that they leave on a seat on the train which has, in the past, been a source of data breeches, is an issue with process and not with technology. So, we're helping with that. And helping in educating-- >> John: Equifax had some >> BPN issues but also, I mean, I haven't reported on this yet also have confirmed that there were state actors involved, foreign actors penetrating in through their franchise relationships. So, in partnering in an open internet these days you need to understand who the partners are even if they're in the network. >> Absolutely. And that's why this whole idea of providing all of the capabilities required for data security including auditing, who's coming in. So, failed attempts to get into the system should be reported as problems. And that's a capability that we have within the database. >> So, you've been at Actian for 25 years, I did not know. That's cool. Good folks over there. I've been to the office a few times. I'm sure you got a good healthy customer base but for the folks that don't know Actian. What's the pitch from your standpoint? Not the marketing pitch hybrid data, I get that. I mean, what should they know about you guys. What is the problem that you saw? What do you bring to the table? From an engineering perspective, how do you differentiate? >> So, my primary focus is around high-speed analytics. And so, Actian enables the fastest SQL access to data, on Hadoop and off of Hadoop, proven through benchmarks. So, high-speed analytics is incredibly important. But for Actian, we're unique in having this 30 year history where we understand what it is to run 24/7, mission critical operational databases. So, Actian's known for products like Ingres, like Psql, and being able to analyze data that's operationalized but then also bringing in new data sources. Cause that's where things are really going. But people want to choose the best application whether it's in the cloud or on-premise, it doesn't matter. It's the best application for their need. And being able to pull all of that data together, and for operational purposes, and for analytics purposes is incredibly important. And Actian enables all of that. >> And that's where the hybrid is really clever and smart because you got the consumption side and the creation side, and data integration isn't a project, it's real. It just happens. >> Emma: Right. >> So, you want to enable that. I can see that would be a key benefit. Certainly as, whether these decentralized apps get more traction, you're going to start to see more immutable things transactions happening. Blockchain clearly points to that direction of the market where that's cool. Distributed computing has been around for awhile but now decentralized we know how to behave there. So, we're seeing some apps that will probably be rewritten for that. But again, if architected properly that should be a problem. >> Right, exactly. And we don't want anybody to have to rewrite apps. What we want to be able to do is to provide a platform where the data that you need is available. >> John: Yeah, they're called Dapps for decentralized apps. It's a whole new wave coming, it's not being talked about here at the show. We are on, obviously, at Silicon Angle and Wikibon are those trends as we're riding the big wave. Okay, Em, I want to ask you a final question. Kind of take your Actian hat off, put your Irish techie hat on, and let's get down and dirty on what the main problem in the industry is right now. If you look back and kind of go to the balcony if you will, look at the stage of the industry, obviously Hadoop is now in the background. It's an element of the bigger picture. We're seeing, we were commenting yesterday that these customers have these tool sheds of all these tools they've bought. They bought a hammer that wants to be a lawnmower, right? It's just like they have their tool platforms are being pitched at them. There's a lot of confusion. What's the main problem that the industry's trying to solve? If you look at it, if you can put the dots together. What is the big problem that needs to be solved, that the industry should be solving? >> So, I think data is every place, right? And there's not a whole lot of discipline around corralling that and putting security around it. Being able to deploy security policies across data regardless of where it's deployed or sourced. So, I think that's probably the biggest challenge is bringing compute to the data and pulling all of that together. And that's the challenge that we're addressing. >> And so, the unification, if you will, people use that word, all unifying data. What does that actually mean? You guys call it hybrid data which means you have some flexibility if you need it. >> Emma: Right. >> All right, cool. Emma, thanks so much for coming on theCUBE. Really appreciate it. Congratulations on your success. And again, you guys got to a good spot. You got a broad portfolio, you're bringing together with hybrid data. Best of luck. We'll keep in touch. Emma McGrattan here, the Senior Vice President of Engineering at Actian here on theCUBE. More live coverage here in New York City from theCUBE's coverage of Big Data NYC after this short break. (upbeat techno music)

(upbeat techno music) >> Hello, everyone, and welcome to this special Cube conversation here in Palo Alto. I'm John Furrier, co-host of the Cube. And we've got two great guests. Prashant Jagganathan, Technical Director of Global Alliances at Catalogic, and Vaughn Stewart, Cube alumni, good friend of the Cube, Vice-President of Technology at Pure Storage. Guys, welcome to this Cube Conversation. Good to see you. >> John, it's great to be here. Nice to see you, mate. >> So, you're on the road. You guys are a growing startup. You guys are doing great. Congratulations. >> Prashant: Thank you. >> So you guys, Catalogic, we've been covering you guys. And you guys came busting out. Still, in my opinion, not well known, but well known. You're the most unknown well-known company because you have a really awesome solution. Pure Storage, you guys are known. You just went public, earnings, again, another successful quarter. Congratulations to the team there. Again, everyone's like, "Pure Storage!" You guys continue to demystify the marketplace with performance, congratulations. Why, what's going on? >> Thanks! Again, we've just announced our quarterly earnings. Another great quarter. We've accomplished 3350 customers, 25% of those are in the Fortune 500. Over 25% of our revenue comes from cloud service providers, be it SaaS, PaaS, you know, hosted private cloud. Really the key of our success has been not the performance of Flash, which I think a lot of folks assume, it's been about reinventing the operational model through simplicity. We'd like to talk about being effortless, efficient, and evergreen. That's kind of our tagline to help customers put their data to work. >> There's certainly a cloud transformation going on, and I want to get your guys thoughts. Because one of the things that our team at Wikibon, our editorial team at SiliconANGLE are focused on, is really three major pillars we're seeing that are powering a whole new set of applications. Cloud-native, whatever you want to call them, that is, obviously cloud computing, which is a combination of on premises, hybrid, and then public. Big data, which is now AI, machine learning, and then IOT. Those are like really the underpinnings that's transforming the data center. And this is causing a lot of opportunity for app developers on top. And you're seeing all the key software markets just completely being disrupted and transforming. So I got to ask you guys, what does this mean to your relationship? Because you guys have a partnership. So how does that fit into that industry trend. Can you talk about the partnership that you two guys have together? >> Prashant: Sure. I'll let you go first. >> So we first started engaging, almost a year ago. >> Prashant: Right. >> You know, there was a lot of relationships based out of the Valley from previous relationships, or I should say employment -- >> John: It's a small industry, the storage industry. >> Yeah, we all know each other. >> And, so at that time, even more than your current opening statements, Catalogic was really flying under the radar, right? A powerful set of tools, how to bring in a copy-data management and data protection scheme into a heterogeneous storage infrastructure. And, they've kind of bridged this gap between, I'm software enabled, software defined, giving you a control plane. Leveraging all of the offload and acceleration capabilities within the hardware infrastructure. And at the end of the day what we were able to identify is this fills a huge gap within the market. Whether customers are looking to convert their virtual infrastructure into a private cloud, meaning it can be self-service, right, by the end users, or consumerized, if you will. They can better accelerate their development teams. And develop a more DevOps centric model, that lets these teams start to work in a more agile infrastructure. And ultimately start to embrace better hybrid storage technologies by making data protection just a native element within their onprem, and extending it into the cloud. >> Prashant, what are some of the use cases, because this really highlights the demand for faster solutions, not necessarily buying the new tool or something else. People got to use what they got. >> Yeah exactly. First to start with the integration rate. So we are a very synergistic relation. Catalogic is an orchestration engine. So it leverages in place existing infrastructure, to automate certain operations. So these operations include, answering your question on use cases, include DevOps, include TestDev automation, and also data protection and disaster recovery management. So it makes it use-case driven, and also for different industries, where they're looking for a centralized, a heterogeneous automation tool that can perform a lot of operations, but not reinventing it, so we don't need to move it to another appliance to deliver these use cases, but leverage the services that the storage, and the hardware already provides. >> TestDev is obviously low hanging fruit. That's kind of been around for a while. We've heard a lot of the top cloud guys say that. We're hearing, as we go out through a variety of the events, real practitioners and end users putting production workloads into the cloud, and really bringing the hybrid architecture in there, which impacts the storage and the preexisting. Outside of test and dev, I hear a lot about mission critical. Are you guys seeing that? Is that a use case? And then, how do the people who are your customers deal with that pressure. Okay, move some mission critical workloads. Make them work. What happens? >> Right, mission critical applications are what's actually driving. They are actually driving the purchasing point of the product itself. So, applications like if you take Oracle, or SQL Database, they are running on high performance storage on Flash. And, what these developers and app owners are looking for is, I have my production data but I need to access that data. They cannot touch production. So they end up using a copy of data, which is driven by backup tools. They backup the data to some tape or some disk appliance, and they perform a full restore operation, which is slower and doesn't give them data access right away. So, with Catalogic what we are trying to do is leverage these production databases, and then quickly spin them up for these mission critical applications. They get a data protection locally on the storage. And these copies can be spun up instantly from an end user for self service. They are looking for quick access to data, which sometimes the storage administrators cannot give them right away. But we provide the tools, and the necessary components to give users access to the data. >> Let me add some color to this, because I agree with what you said. I think when you look at what's occurring within midsize businesses and enterprises, which is really where we sell to. At Pure Storage we don't go into the small market. There is this macro desire from organizations to get their private cloud finalized. This transition from virtual to private cloud. Because the end-state of private cloud is then to optimize IT resources, and start to move your people into areas of future investment. Meaning focus more on IOT. A lot more on the analytics. Whether it be ML or AI. And so when you take a step back and say, okay they'll come from macro and let's talk about our two products. We make an all Flash array. What was interesting about the introduction of our Flash array when we first brought it to market was, it didn't start in tier two or tier three. It started mission critical tier one. In which you're in that space, and you're dealing with some applications powered by an Oracle suite, or on top of SQL Server for example. There are a lot of steps that have to be taken to protect that data. I've got to call the application. I've got to coordinate with the hypervisor layer, the storage. And if I'm now going to start to automate this to bring a cloud-like experience to my end users, I've got to deal with compliance, operations, and security concerns. I should say regulatory, concerns. >> Think of all the personas involved in this. >> Which means, it may be a retention policy. It may be a release the resources. It may be measuring the resource constraints. It may require data masking. All of these elements that are above the storage layer, and above our great performance and cloning engine. Catalogic manages for us. And they've got geocentricity to it. Is it onprem, what country is it in? Is it off in the cloud? These are the elements when you say, I want to make a private cloud a cloud. It's where the hypervisor vendors have kind of left us looking for more. >> John: So that's a gap. So that's the gap you're talking about, if I get your thoughts on that, because Wikibon just put out a survey just last month, that through 2026, the true private cloud, they call it true private cloud, is going to be 237 billion dollars. That speaks to the data center migration to cloud, where you've got true private cloud, which is essentially data center that has cloud-like features for DevOps, and hybrid cloud. But, this mission critical question comes back to it. Because, as VP of technology, you know. We've talked about storage in the past. Databases in isolation are easy to deal with, but when you're dealing with production databases, this is a nightmare. No one wants to fool with them. So talk about how hard this is, because most people don't get how complicated it is to wrangle production databases to get something into production, in a true private cloud. >> So, like you said, production database, nobody wants to touch it, because that's driving business, and anything to do with business, the developers don't want to touch it, the QA. >> They call it NoOps. No, don't touch it. >> Prashant: Don't touch it. Exactly. >> And they also want self-service too. They want no operational people involved as well. >> And that is part of the problem as well. Every time you're, the whole DevOps moment is you trying to combine the developers and talk to the Ops people. But the true DevOps is, the Ops is not involved. Just developer wants some access to it, they get it right away. The Ops people don't usually want to give access to developers for the production environment. Part of the reason because developers want to do a lot of different things with it. They want to do batch testing. They might want to run queries against it, run analytics against it. Use it for big data consumption. And if you do this against production database, not only are you degrading the performance of it, even if it's on Flash, you're performing operations that you don't normally perform on a production database. Which is why they need access to it in a self-contained environment. Not directly on the production. >> And one of the values that the private cloud can differentiate itself on today versus public cloud offerings, is in the public cloud, there isn't an ability to make instant copies of production data. You've got to be making backups that come out of one storage silo across the interconnects to another silo, and then when you want to clone, it's got to copy out of that silo. So from an agility, a time to perspective, the clouds not there on that construct yet. It's all based on software copies. In the model that Catalogic enables, whether its Pure Storage or other storage partners that are within their portfolio of support, we get to leverage these engines that are very mature and robust within the enterprise class storage arrays today, to deliver this agility and speed. And we find customers being very creative in how they're leveraging these technologies. I was sharing before we sat down. We have a customer that, they've taken their legacy environment, which is storing all these customer records and information in a relational database, and now they're leveraging it to say, let's make multiple copies of this database and run queries and parallel across multiple cloned instances. Because they don't have the staff that knows how to adopt a dupe ecosystem today. >> Alright, so let me see if I can put this together. Because, the things I like to look at externally to what you guys are doing, and some trends that I can point to. Pure, your growth on terms of number, is in the green. Competition's down. So you're obviously in a modernization kind of wave. People are buying your stuff and they're moving it in. But also seeing on the data protection side, in the cloud you're seeing new startups emerging. I look around, there's a lot of startups reinventing data protection, and backup and recovery for cloud. So the pressure that the customers have is, I want the best of what I've been doing, but yet I got to move to the cloud really quick. IT modernization, consumers. Whatever you want to call it, it's happening. How do you guys work together to make that happen? Because, I still got to get this new environment, but I got to make the production protection work. There's no four walls anymore. Am I getting this right? >> Yeah, that is correct. So, customers are moving to the cloud there. The notion of hybrid cloud exists in some fashion as in, they are running most of their mission critical applications on production and on faster performing arrays. But they are still moving their workloads into the cloud. So they have a mix of both. With a true data protection, you have to cover both these scenarios. The hybrid cloud model, where you're taking care of data protection both on premises and also into the cloud. So with the cloud migration, now it becomes more important to understand and catalog the entire environment, to identify what's out there. Are they protected? And are my users getting the right access to the right data? So that's where Catalogic comes into the picture, where it can provide a single global view into things, of identifying these are your mission critical applications right there on premises, and here's the data in the cloud. And, not only drive data protection natively in the cloud, but I also give cloud people access to data that's on premises. >> So you guys have a good fit with Pure that way, because they're >> Prashant: Exactly. >> hitting the large enterprises, and then emerging modern enterprises, but to store Flash. You guys kind of give some extensibility through that integration >> Right. >> So I got to ask you the tough question. Data masking and security. Huge issues right now. Security in particular. There's no perimeter in the cloud. You guys know all about this on the storage side. Onprem is pretty well known, but still there's no perimeter even on premise. How are you guys dealing with security in your relationships? >> That's a great question. It's actually easier for me. That wasn't a tough one. >> John: Damn, I wanted it to be a hard question. >> That wasn't a tough one. So data obfuscation, or data masking, is a main ask for mission critical applications. So, especially when you're talking about DevOps giving access to data. You don't want to give access to production data that contains information like credit card info, social security number, blood group of your firstborn. Kind of information that you want to keep private. So, Catalogic integrates with some of the data masking, or obfuscation tools out there. So, that's a great value add to the storage as well. So, from a storage layer you don't really know what's the content of the data. Whereas Catalogic provides that information, where it can take the database information, and apply masking against it. And, when we manage these snapshots, we provide role-based access control against it. So an end user, we'll give them access to them. For admins to do basic recovery they can perform against the entire database. Whereas a developer who needs access to a subset of the data will only get access or see the data that we allow them to see. >> Okay, hard question, then I'll try to bring another one to you. Self-service as nirvana. IT operations moving into higher value, cloud-native, developer. How do you guys see the progress of full self-service. Scalable, horizontally scalable data. Are you there now? Where does that fit, that picture of full self-service? No operations guys involved. >> So, no operations guys involved is still. >> John: See I stumped you. >> Right. So, it's still in a runner because it combines a couple of things. So one, if you want to give access to data, it has to be instant. And it doesn't have to be script driven. It has to be either click of a button, or leverage the existing tools that they have. And the other is, how much can you give access? So in the sense that, I have 15 developers. And, 15 developers are all asking for the same data, and you need to have a performing storage that should be able to handle these multiple stream requests. >> And I think you're speaking very eloquently about the technology, but I think you're understating the whole nature of enabling the private cloud and having it be self-service. There is a point in time when you first take that first 30 to 60 minutes to setup Catalogic and to register into the authentication realms, and the virtualization environment, and the storage array. Okay sure, that's overhead. Then you're going to spend some time with your team, as the operations side of the house, defining your infrastructure policies. And you're probably going to go reach to talk to, again this is DevOps. I'm going to go talk to the development teams, and go talk to the regulatory folks. What are the requirements? Because does this data have to stay in country? What countries is is visible for? >> There's some legwork up front. >> What has to be masked based on what groups? And you setup these role-based policies. Once that's in place, that's no different than ... Now you have a service catalog. And you're showing up, and you're like, "Hey I'm John." "You guys know I'm part of the Oracle team." >> And so the developers can have full access to that data. They can program with it. >> Vaughn: They get to catalog and the API set >> Prashant: So what we ... Exactly, so what we create is templates. And these templates can be customized to a developer. So I have a financial services team, that needs access to the financial service data. So we'll create templates that'll include policies like, hey, this is the storage provision for it. This is the data, the mass data which contains the financials. And, we'll give that template to the financial services team. >> And just for the audience, because I think we all grok this, but I want to make sure the audience gets this. The difference between what we're talking about, and just saying well, "Hey I can clone" "a database virtual machine today" "by my hypervisor." Sure. But that's a manual process by the virtualization team. Which is disconnected from the application team. >> There needs to be an email. A meeting gets setup. People have to weigh in. >> But there's no data masking. There's no role-based access posse. There's no termination of the resource policy. So, we're sitting again and back in, sure virtualization gave us agility, but we're still manual and trying to track it. This gives us not just a catalog of services. It's all audited. Now we can go back and see who accessed what data at what time. Cloud. >> Awesome. Vaughn I want to ask you the final question, because I want to talk about kind of of a futuristic industry view. AI is the hype right now. Augmented intelligence I call it. But, soon artificial intelligence. We're seeing self-driving cars out there. Will there be self-driving storage? I don't mean literally driving around, but I mean, talking about auto provision. We're talking about the ability to just plug something in, having machine learning and AI, these kinds of things. Are you guys working on things like that in R&D? I would imagine a world where ultimately you plug the storage in. Magic happens. People are programming with it. It's programmable. Where are we on this? What's the vision? >> So you got to watch out. This is a trick question, right? Rule number one from your Comms team, don't make news. So, I would say is, again, going back to our pillars, in the foundation for Pure. How do we help customers put their data to work? We make it effortless, efficient, and evergreen. And under that effortless piece, the big notion with Purists is there's no knobs to turn. And so the secret sauce is that I can give you Flash performance at disk economics. And guess what? You're virtualization admin can be a storage expert. Can hit six nine's availability without ever reading a manual. So this is the foundation of what we've built with Flash Array. We've now rolled out Flash Blade. And, let's just say with our partnership >> Are you being a good, you're being a good spokesperson right now, by not trying, trying to go to the script. Prashant we'll go to you, because we know everyone's working on automation. So that's not a secret. The question though is specific. I don't want to get you in trouble, but the point is, people are looking for real automation where there's some intelligence. That's the trend. You guys are kind of at the beginning stages of your relationship >> Prashant: Correct. >> that are doing that now at some level. When's that next level, what's it look like. >> The heart of automation is building that catalog. And there goes in the name of our company Catalogic. I don't want to give any future details away, but yeah, that's where everybody's going. They're all looking for a chatbot, or an Alexa-like project. >> Well storage is a service is what people say. Tesla is a car, it's not really a car anymore. It's a service. >> Prashant: It's a service, right. >> Powered by software. Storage you can almost imagine some product coming out that's very service and connected oriented. >> Well look, I wasn't trying to dodge your question but, >> I know. >> at the end of the day, everybody wants to automate their data center. I think you were taking it a step further saying, "Okay look, I see frameworks here" "of what we're talking about between Pure and Catalogic." What comes next? We've got a lot of folks that we know in this valley that are working for a number of startups trying to say hey, how do I bring AI into the data center? I think it's going to be more prevalent over the next four or five years, so let's see how it develops. >> Okay, so where does the partnership go next? We'll kind of end it on that. And you guys have a great partnership, and thanks for coming in and sharing the data. But Prashant and Vaughn, where does this go next? What happens next? Good integration, what's the next step? >> I think customers who are looking at this today, the easiest place to start is to say I want to automate Oracle and/or SQL, or I want to bring, and look at reinventing my backup space. I don't want to buy an appliance. I want data protection to be part of my ecosystem and cloud-connected. Where does it go from here? I think we'll see probably an expansion in terms of our partnership. So we've got a new product called Flash Blade that we want to look at, >> Prashant: You want to look at as well. >> work at working on together. We've got us some other work that we can't announce at this point in time. But if you come to Accelerate, which is our user conference in June, you'll hear about some of the new capabilities we're going to bring to market, and that we are working on within that ecosystem together as well. >> Yeah, and for us it goes back to the mission critical databases. So we are expanding our portfolio, and adding more databases, and expanding existing databases. >> John: Expanding the catalog. Microservices oriented, that kind of thing? >> Exactly, and supporting other ... >> Key industry applications, based on vertical. >> Right, and tighter integration with existing storage arrays as well as the new ones. >> Cloud is about the data, right? The data is where the action is. That's the action. >> And we are looking at how to extend into the cloud as well. >> Alright, Catalogic and Pure here on inside the CubeConversation. Prashant, Vaughn, thanks for spending the time. I'm John Furrier. Thanks for watching this CubeConversation.

>> Voiceover: Live from Las Vegas, it's The Cube covering HPE Discover 2017. Brought to you by Hewlett-Packard Enterprise. >> Welcome back everyone. This is The Cube's day two coverage of HPE Discover 2017. We're here live in Las Vegas. I'm John Furrier, the co-founder of SiliconAngle Media. My other co-founder Dave Vellante, head of research at Wikibon.com. And our next guests are Kevin Wan, Director of Software Defined and Cloud Group Marketing at HPE, and William Fellows, co-founder and VP of Research at 451 Research, well-known research firm with Wikibon, and some of the other research firms out there, covering the cloud. Guys welcome to The Cube. >> Thanks for having us, it's exciting day today. >> So the first thing I want to get into here is, we were just talking before we went on live, about multicloud and kind of having a great debate, it's great, it's a great debate because it really is a hard definition to knock down. And Wikibon has done some research, you've got some new research, I want to get into that. Dave done some, I think, called, True Private Cloud, that shows not a decline in on-prem and server deployment, there's actually an increase. Hybrid cloud is increasing. You guys got some new research. What is the state of enterprises with respect to moving to cloud, vis-a-vis hybrid. 'Coz certainly there's movement there. What's going on? >> So, users want to make decisions about where to place applications, and workloads, and source services based upon policy, based upon latency, based upon geography, and so on. And as the worlds of cloud and hosting, and co-location and managed services, as they converged those options are growing exponentially. And, you know, what HP has been doing is to bring into view tools which allow organizations to select those best environments to meet their hybrid IT needs. And what we've seen in 451 Research is that between now and the next couple of years, there's going to be an increased momentum to put those workloads and applications into different kinds of cloud environments. In other words, when you talk to an organization, they say, "Well, we've got a bit of SaaS here. "We're using a bit of public cloud here. "We're using some other hosting services. "We're doing things on-premise." Already they're using multiple cloud services. So when we asked our global commentator network of about 60,000 folks for whom enterprise IT is their day job, which we call voice of the enterprise, they've told us that between now and in two years' time, existing 40% of workloads in those cloud environments is going to become 60%. In other words, the majority of workloads in two years' time are going to be running in some kind of cloud environment. Now, the mix of those is going to be different depending on different organizations. But we found a variance of less than about 10% across different vertical markets, which suggests there's an interesting benchmark, if you like, a right mix coming into view in terms of the balance of when you would use public cloud services, when you would use hosted private, and when you would use on-premise services. >> Ken I want to get your thoughts on this because that's a great point he's bringing up. The cloud business model is not necessarily, I have to move it to public. You can do cloud-like on-premise. That's where the True Private Cloud comes in. To your point, there is a massive shift to cloud-like, and there's a trend towards the same software on-prem as in the cloud. So, as these things get laid out, you're seeing that path. So just because you're still on-prem doesn't make you not cloud, right? >> That's right, that's exactly right. So what we're seeing is, as William was saying, is that there's an interest in figuring out where is the best place for workload to go? Based on its performance needs, it's security, compliance, cost needs. And often we find that sometimes traditional IT leaving a traditional IT environment is the best thing to do. Sometimes it's best to put it into a private cloud, sometimes it's best to put it into a public cloud. So we're seeing a lot of customers with multiple clouds, on average, somewhere between five and eight clouds today. And the challenge they're starting to have now is, "My God, I've got five to eight clouds. "How do I manage all these?" >> "How'd that happen?" Clouds brawl. >> Yeah, and so, but there's very little interoperability between them. And so you have different stacks of management for each of these clouds. And there's a fair amount of resource required to manage all these different clouds. So I think what the next thing you'll start seeing are tools that allow you to migrate resources, or look at clouds more holistically, and to analyze the entire cloud environment, all the multiple clouds, and to be able to use policy, and then analyze where is the best location automatically, and to be able to pull cost data out, performance data out, across the whole cloud environment. >> And this is what we've, at 451 research has been calling best execution venue for about 10 years now. So the idea is that for every class of IT-related business need, there's an environment which best balances performance, and cost, and other things. And IT should be able to deploy to that environment automatically. And get the benefits associated with having things in the right resources and the right services they need. >> That's right. Our view is that people need to figure out their right mix. Every company will use a different amount of SaaS, private cloud, public cloud, based on their company strategy. An online bank will have different requirements than a brick-and-mortar bank, as an example. Even though they're in the same industry. Because their business models are different, their mix will be different. So we work with each company to figure out what their right mix should be, where do they need that portability. One of the exciting things that we're doing today at Discover is talking about Microsoft Azure Stack. We've worked with Microsoft to bring out this new offering that provides full compatibility between what's running on-premise and what's running in a public cloud. So Azure Stack uses the ability to run Azure-consistent services right out of your data center with its fully API compatible. So that means, as a developer, I can write an application and deploy it into either a public cloud or a private cloud, with no change to the code at all. >> So the extensibility is the key message here. You don't have to adopt Azure Stack from the Azure cloud. You can actually mirror that on-prem in a cloud-like way that's still on-prem. And you can call that private cloud. I mean you can call it private cloud but then that's what it is. >> Right, right. >> But that's obviously going to resonate with developers, this whole notion of infrastructures as codes. So one of the things that CEOs complain about is we spent way too much money on non-differentiated infrastructure management. And so to the extent that you're putting in these clouds, private cloud, whatever, hybrid clouds, that substantially mimic public cloud, William, what does your research show in terms of how organizations are shifting their spending on labor? If that premise is true that CEOs don't want to spend it on, you know, provisioning LANs, but they do wanted initiate digital transformation initiatives. Are you seeing any evidence that this notion of cloud is helping on-prem, is helping them shift their spending on labor? >> So what I would say is that cloud provides the basis and the platform for broader digital transformation agendas. And cloud brings with it some really important changes in the operating model which affect staffing and how you do these things. So, for example, moving from a process development which is waterfall or top down to, agile, from moving from a situation where resources are allocated from one where they are consumption based. So from installing new things in different Silos to where things are updated on a continuous basis. So those things have a dramatic effect on the way you organized internally in order to support that, which indeed then set you up for doing these things that would create a digital platform. So linking technology, information assets, customer experience, marketing, and so on. And I think Devoxx is at the heart of that because it provides the automation, the process change, 'coz remember what we're talking about here is moving from, you know, a world in which, you've talked about, the Silo, to one in which is collaborative, to one in which is multidirectional, and to one which is based on sharing. And I think all of those things have an impact on how you staff for those. I think there's been enough research to understand that not everyone is going to make it necessarily in this transformation. But I think our research indicates that at least 2/3 of the folks in silent organization bind to the things that they will need to be doing in order to support this digital transformation. >> We've certainly seen, the many customers that I've talked to, look at this and see this huge opportunity for essentially automating a lot of functions, you know, the LANS, the networks, installing the application, the databases, and all that. And through this automation, all these people who used to do this now are available to be re-skilled, to do higher level, more value-differentiating sorts of work. All these IT departments are struggling because they want to bring, focus more of their effort on new services but they're so much work to just maintaining the existing services. They don't have the time. So one of the things the cloud does is reduce the mundane day-to-day time and take those resources and move them on a more differentiated value-creating types of services so that they can advance their businesses. >> Ken, interesting point, I mean, yes they were talking about IT, information technology, those two words, I mean, they're not going away, they're only getting stronger. And it's interesting that some of the narrative in the media is the decline of servers, decline of storage shipments. Now I get that, those boxes may or may not be sold in the same volumes as it was before. But the growth shifting somewhere else. And that's the issue. I want to get your thoughts on that. Because it's not the decline in the IT. It is growing if you look at the private cloud and your report suggests that there's a massive growth. So your point about shifting to the value stack is interesting. So what are you seeing with the customers? What specifically are they doing in that shift with IT resources? Is it app development? Is it more operational automation? What are some of the things that you're observing? >> We're seeing through this digital transformation, a desire to automate a lot of the common functions that they use to automate, so that they can speed up services, speed up VMs in minutes rather than days, being able to provide PaaS services to their developers. So the developers, instead of getting a VM from the IT department, then having to load in the database, the middleware, all these development tools, that he should go into his environment and request an environment, the environment automatically comes up. So now the developer doesn't have to spend time figuring out what version of database, what version of middleware, all that. The environment's up and running and he can just focus on writing code, which is ultimately what we want to do, is to help our customers get the developers doing more of what they do best, which is writing code and less of this infrastructure management kind. >> Yes they automate a way and they move to higher value-- >> Well I guess at the top of the pile there, you know, the old adage used to be that, you know, for CIOs cloud meant, you know, career is over. >> John: Not anymore (laughs). >> But what that really should apply, it means, you know, becoming the chief innovation officer, and returning to innovating for the business rather than just keeping the lights on right? >> That's right. It gives the IT folks an opportunity to think about how can you apply this new technology to the business challenges that the line of business are having. So that they can bring together those thoughts. It's very often the line of business guys don't know enough about the technology. And the technology guys don't know enough about the line of business. You've got to have somebody who knows both sides who could see how you can apply new technology to accelerate the business. >> So that underscores that the organizational roles are changing. Lest, like you say, doing this provisioning, server provisioning, more strategic initiatives. There's an area in the market place that everybody sort of talking about as jump-all, which is this multicloud, intercloud management. Nobody really dominates that. Hewlett-Packard Enterprise, obviously, has a good position there. So first question is, what are you seeing in terms of the changing role of the IT department, the gestalt of that? And what does that mean in terms of opportunities for Hewlett-Packard Enterprise? Maybe William you could take the first? >> So what I would say is the IT department is increasingly becoming a broker of services, both those that are created internally and those that are procured from outside. And so what they need is a way to be able to to provision those, to be able to manage, to build a meter and charts, for those who implement security, and governance, and so on. So what we're seeing is the rise of sets of cloud management technologies and real large, you know, we talked about, a cloud management platform that enables users to find, access, and use, you know, a range of different kind of services. And this is what HP is going to be providing with, you know, the New Stack. And the New Stack is effectively a cloud management platform. >> Absolutely >> Right Ken? >> So talked about the opportunity that you see from Hewlett-Packard Enterprise's perspective. >> So what we see is exactly that the challenge that you laid out, is that there's a lot of different clouds out there but there's still a lot of manual work to have to configure and manage them individually. And so one of the things that we announced at the show is something what we call Project New Stack. So this is a vision for how we're going to enable our customers to manage a multicloud environment. So imagine if someone is using AWS, Azure, Google, VMware, OpenStack, >> Containers, Kubernetes. >> and you have a way to look across all of these different clouds and say I can see where my spend is. I can see where my capacity is. And I can do that not only as a whole but from my finance department, they can see their part as well. The HR department can see their resource usage. So now we have a way to look across the entire computing environment, the cloud environment. And understand cost utilization performance at a more holistic level, rather than at an individual level. So we look at this from three different personas. You have to think about this. And we've talked about people and organizations. So one of these personas is the IT guy, right? He has to worry about operation. So we give him a portal where he can set this environment up, where we can make connectivity into all these services on the public cloud and private cloud. We have a different persona where if it was a developer. So that developer doesn't care about the infrastructure, they don't care, all they want is access to their development tools. So we give him access to a whole market place, to different tools, whether that's Chef, Puppet, all these answerable, all these tools that they can use to do their dev ops work. And then there's the line of business. This line of business, again, he doesn't care about the network, or the storage. What he cares about is how much money am I spending? Are my services meeting the performance requirements? So we see the shift to these three very clear personas that need to interact with this environment what we call Project New Stack, and to look at how we enable this multicloud environment. >> So Project New Stack supports this notion of an IT operations management center that allows to have full visibility and control over all my clouds, my SaaS, my on-prem, my public clouds, protecting that data, securing that data. How far away are we from that nirvana? >> And not to be locked in right? Because I think one of the things that characterizes Project New Stack versus other approaches, is that it allows organizations to access and use different kinds of servers. 'Coz the danger with these things is that, you know, everyone talks about, you know, a single pane of glass, that they can easily become a single glass of pane if they don't allow you to do these things. >> That's a good point, I mean-- >> That's correct. And one of the challenges we see from the developer world is developers like to use the tools they like to use, you know, they don't like to be told what to do. So it's very important that there's ability for the developers to bring in the latest and greatest tool that their buddy, you know, that they work with just heard about, to bring in 'coz it's going to make their job a lot easier. So this Project New Stack has strong integrations to third party products and the ability to bring in new developers. >> This is a challenge and opportunity. We should follow up on this. But I want to get your final thoughts on this, both of you. Because this is an interesting challenge, but an opportunity. Too many tools, same hammer, five different versions of a hammer you have. Now multicloud which has kind of been by accident, on purpose, people just got to Amazon over here, they wake up and they go, "Oh my God, I'm in multiple clouds." That doesn't mean multiclouds in the sense of seamless workloads moving around and best resource. So in a way there's an existing kind of legacy set up here. So your thoughts on how customers can manage this. Is that accurate? Do you agree or-- >> So, you raise a good point. So there's a small percentage of folks who are using multiple clouds to fulfill a single business process. However, the majority, when they say hybrid cloud, it just means they're using different clouds to meet different needs at different times. >> Workloads, on Azure, I've got some Office 365, I've got some analytics on Redshift-- >> Exactly, but we haven't seen is organization's moving workloads and applications between clouds based upon minute by minute or penny by penny changes in price. However, the world of HP and other folks envisage is one where you will be able to, because of the needs of a particular application or a geography or latency, you will be able to move data between these things. >> Or cost as you said. >> Exactly. >> So build a stack for your company basically. So you're essentially giving a composability fabric, and go to a company and saying, "Hey, there's no general purpose products anymore, "here's a New Stack approach where you can kind of," I won't say cobble together, but you know, stitched together what they need. >> Put together your right environment, and in fact it's not just going to be about moving application across different clouds based on container technology, it's certainly one of the things that we'll be doing, but even beyond that, it's the ability to run different micro services on different clouds so your actual service is actually running on multiple clouds, all managed together by a single environment. And the operator can look and say, "Oh looks like this service needs a little more resource, "so let me automatically provide that more resource." So we're scaling up, your application continues to meet its needs. That's where this is really getting interesting. >> Because micro services aren't always so micro. (laughs) >> You know latency and data are really important factors in this multicloud. I want to continue this conversation. >> But also if you leave the hyper-scalers to one side, every other organization is becoming a broker of cloud services to some extent. In other words, what I mean is, they're offering access to, not only their own services but to third party services as well, because if they don't, the customers are going to go elsewhere. So they need the mechanism to be able to manage that. >> That's right, that's exactly right. >> It's a great opportunity for HP to take that whole market and increase that TAM of that cloud service provider if you will, I mean-- >> Huge opportunity. >> anyone in the SaaS business is essentially a cloud provider. So you call them a cloud service provider I guess. Guys thanks so much. William great to meet you and have your commentary here on The Cube, appreciate it. Ken thanks so much for the New Stack conversation and hybrid IT. This is The Cube. Day two coverage of three days. I'm John Furrier for Dave Vellante. Stay with us for more coverage after this short break. (soft upbeat music)