(electronic music) >> Announcer: From Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE, covering Cloud Foundry Summit 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Foundry Foundation. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman, and this is theCUBE's coverage of Cloud Foundry Summit 2018, here in Boston. Happy to welcome back to the program, Chen Goldberg, who's the Engineering Director at Google. Chen, thanks for joining me. >> Thank you, it's always a pleasure. >> So Chen, what are the big questions coming in? We talked to you at the KubeCon Show before. You know, Kubernetes, you know, Cloud Foundry, containers, serverless, all these things mashing up. You've been here at the show for about a day, what have you learned so far? How do all these kind of fit together in your mind? >> So actually, it was great being here for the last day, 24 hours so far, and just seeing how Cloud Foundry Community is really opening and welcoming influence from other communities in the cloud native space. And we see it in different ways. We see work that is being done on building some open standards, for example, and so working with the Cloud Foundry on things like OCI, the Open Container Initiative, and the CSI, which is the Container Storage Interface. But not only that, for example, we in Google have been working, last year, building Kubo, which then became the Cloud Foundry Container Runtime, and really bringing things together. And I think that's awesome because like any other technology, we need to know how we can take the best out of everything. And this is what really, user wants to know. They want to know that when they are making a decision or a choice of a technology, that technology can move with them forward. The last thing that we also see all of interest about the Open Service Broker and how you can really mesh things together with different platforms. >> Chen, I'm wondering if you can help us squint through this a little bit. And we've heard Google talking for a while about Open Cloud, and that means it doesn't beam all one source in the public cloud portability between clouds, public and private. Google's had many partnerships over the years with there. How do these pieces fit together in your mind? >> I think it all starts with what user wants. Okay, I always talk about the customer and what is their pain? And the pain, in reality is that they have a very complex environment, okay? They have on-prem. They want to use some of the cloud services. Sometimes they have some places, like we hear it from retail, they have some warehouses, that they don't have actually good connectivity, but they still want to serve, they still want to have the guild transformation. And, I think, that's the main thing that what we hear from users, that they want to have that flexibility over to run their business. Okay, because this is what they really have to do and they want to compete more effectively. So, think about that. The other piece which we hear about users is that they want to make sure like we talked about Cloud Foundry before. They want to make sure that the infrastructure they choose though, that the tools will allow them to evolve, and that can be in different ways. It can be about maybe having flexibility to choose different tools, but also not to be locked in to a specific vendor because that happened to them before, right? So, they want to make sure that they can continue and move forward because the technology we know today maybe, probably will change in the future. So, by having all of that together, that leads us to some of the pieces I've talked about in the keynote. And the first one is portability. We achieve it by open source. We believe in open source because it does bring the community together. We learn about users, partners. We have an amazing ecosystem. So that's one. The second piece is about its sensibility and this is where you can see how Cloud Foundry can actually integrate into Kubernetes. It's because of those extension points. We don't know where innovation will come from. What will be the next cool thing? And back in KubeCon, I talked about some serverless framework we see on top of Kubernetes. All of that is possible through those extensions. Open Service Broker is actually a combination of two. So Open Service Broker is an open standard. It allows you to consume services from different platforms. We saw, in the keynote, so Google is announcing, now in beta, the Google Managed Service Broker, supporting the Open Service Broker API. And you consume it out from any Kubernetes cluster that are using a catalog, service catalog. And it is available also through those extensions. So when we think about Open Hybrid Cloud, we think about that you can run it anywhere. And either you have interopabilities, so you can consume different tools and you can extend it and innovate on top of it. So that's our way of thinking. >> Yeah, I mean, we know the only thing that's constant in this industry today is change. >> Yes. >> One of the things we've been tracking is if I look at an application, it used to be I deploy an application, it takes me 12-18 months at least, and then, once I'm running it, gosh. Yeah, sure, were going to run it for three to five years but, no, no, actually, we're going to run it for 10-12 years. We're going to keep it longer. How does this kind of decomposability of applications and having things and more components? We talk about things like flexibility and speed but, you know, how do you hear from customers, really, from the application side of things? >> This is all about microservices? >> Yeah. >> Right? Just making sure that your application is architected in a way that allows you to change things. I think also that developers are now used to that cycle which is really fast. I'm talking about agility and how quickly you can deploy changes. You know, I keep talking with my engineering team, like don't get too attached (laughs) to anything because things do change and requirements change all the time, and if you're building your application right, you can do those changes. For example, again, going back to the Open Service Broker, you can use a service. First of all, maybe your own service, like your own SQL. But then you can use through a managed service like if you are running on G Key or having Cloud Foundry running on GCP, then you can use one of the managed services offered by Google. >> Okay, anything new you're hearing from users? What are some of their biggest challenges? What's exciting them these days? >> So it depends which user and also who you talk in that audience. Yeah, I think developers are still very excited about the opportunity and the different tools and open source and how quickly the technology is moving forward. When we talk with enterprise, they are very excited about consistency because it's hard. That complexity and managing all of it is really hard to train your operational teams and the developers on different tools. So they are very much concerned about that, their TCO. So they care about, of course, the cost of the infrastructure, but also the people. Right, we don't talk about how hard it is to train and change technology, technologies, all during a cultural change within an organization. So, they care about consistency and this is something that is really in the heart of the thing that we are building. So starting with Kubernetes, we talk about flexibility without compromising consistency. And you do it by building obstructions and letting everyone own a different piece. And there's always some excitement about Istio, in that sense, because what it allows you is to create an obstruction for managing services which is separated from the code that you build. So, let's say you want to, for example, deploy a new policy of access control to your services, you can do it through Istio, because you have proxies in front of all your services, regardless of what they run, by the way. You can have services on VMs, on Cloud Foundry, on a Google Kubernetes engine, or anything, anywhere else you actually would like to have them. And you have that consistent layer in front of all of them. You can do troubleshooting easier because you will have the same matrix and data and telometry on top of it. And so, moving into that direction, creating more obstructions that are creating less friction for the end-user, while still allowing just the platform to evolve, right? If you have this platform on top of it, you can still move services from running from one platform to another, but that person that is using the data, actually, their experience won't change. >> Alright, Chen, what should we be looking for from Google and Eureka's system for the rest of 2018? >> So, of course, we continue and invest a lot in Kubernetes and its ecosystem, and you can see it all the time. All the time, we are bringing more and more tools in open source, showing some of our best practices of how we manage development and production into the community. Some of it is in, like project, like developer experience project, like scaffold, and others that were announced in the last few months. So we will see more of those coming. And in some ways, it's also around the best practices. So, we have been delivering messages of how you should run your clusters or application more secured. And, of course, some of those offerings will be on GCP. But that's another area where we are heavily investing. We have a lot of experience and we are happy to share that. >> Well okay, last question I have for you, is the world becoming more Googly? Or is Google becoming more like the rest of the world? (Stu and Chen laugh) >> I want to say that the world becoming more Googly. (laughs) Being Googly means many things for people here in the, that maybe don't know what means. To me, being Googly is being nice and being kind, and also, being open to more ideas and that's what I would hope to see the world moving towards. But yes, but definitely Google, as part of it being Googly, is working, continuing to work with the community and get feedback, and that's great. >> Okay, well, Chen Goldberg, it's a pleasure to catch up with you again. We will have lots more Google content (Chen laughs) and Googly guests, not only here at the Cloud Foundry Summmit, we're going to be at KubeCon, Copenhagen, as well as KubeCon, Seattle, at the end of the year, and really excited to say that we will be at the Google Cloud Next Show >> Aww. >> this summer, so, look for lots more of theCUBE. >> Thank you, Chen, for joining me. >> That's exciting. >> I'm Stu Miniman. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (electronic music)

(upbeat techno music) >> Announcer: From Boston, Massachusetts, it's the Cube, covering Cloud Foundry Summit 2018, brought to you by the Cloud Foundry Foundation. >> Welcome back to the Cube, I'm Stu Miniman, and this is Cloud Foundry Summit 2018, in Boston. Talking a lot about digital transformation, and love when we get to talk to the users here, at the show. One of the great stories told on the keynote stage this morning was from T-Mobile. So, while Rob wasn't on the stage, he's involved in the activity. This is Rob Hansen, Director of Operations at T-Mobile. Thank you for joining me. >> Yeah. Absolutely. Thank you for having me. >> So, Rob, we were talking before and the twitters, there's lots of stuff that goes on, but everybody, there was a great story talking about 17 hundred developers and only 10 operators, underneath, making those work. So, maybe before we get into it, tell us a little bit about your role, your background, what you do at T-mobile. >> Sure, my role is, I lead a team on the operations side. So, we operate the software and when we look over the last 10 years or so, that software's been predominately large monoliths. Look at, use TIBCO as an example. We've been a heavy user of TIBCO BW for many many years and my environment supporting TIBCO BW accounts for about 2,000 physical servers across multiple data centers, and that carries a high operational cost. We're doing all our changes in the middle of the night. Things break, seeming randomly at times, causing customer impact, just a lot of paint and patching. One of my favorite topics is patching. >> (laughs) Oh, boy. Tuesday's your favorite day of the week, right? It's taco Tuesday and patch Tuesday. >> Oh, my god. Yes. Exactly Every quarter I get the list of servers, here's the list of servers that needs to be patched, and it's just a nightmare, right. >> So, Rob, can we talk a little bit about the developer and operator interaction at your company? I interviewed Solomon Hykes last year at DockerCon, and he said, "Believe it or not, "I created Docker mostly for the operators." That's his background in there, >> Oh, yeah. >> But everybody, they're, "This show, "it's developers, developers, developers." So, what's that dynamic inside T-Mobile? >> Historically, before we got into kind of the cloud-native space, it was really an us versus them, right. There's the mentality of, oh, it's an ops problem now. There's a great meme out there. It's one of my favorites, the little girl standing in front of the burning house, and it says, "Worked in dev, it's an ops problem now." (Stu laughs) So, as we've gone through this cloud-native journey, and we've moved into using like Pivotal, within our environment, we've seen that community within our organization come together, and really start working closer and closer together. Right now, we're going through a migration into the TIBCO Container Edition project, or application, and as we've been doing that, we literally have our ops base folks and the development base folks sitting in a room together, day and night, just working together. Historically, developers have a point of view, operators have a different point of view. It's really brought them together into a singular point of view and ownership of the software, and just providing business capabilities. >> Rob, could you give us a little bit of picture, kind of your application portfolio, how much have you been kind of moving onto the platforms, how much do you build new on the platform, those kind of things? >> Yeah, absolutely. So, I mentioned earlier, legacy, we were about 2,000 physical servers. Right now, I'm trying to remember the actual application count, but I've taken, or we've taken one of our historical job applications, moved it completely into PCF, running a complete spring boot now. We're doing that with our TIBCO environment. We have a number of other applications that we've spun up, running in spring and whatnot. What we've been able to do is just explode the amount of stuff we're deploying, and just new functionality. We're able to develop it much faster. So, when we look at the developers, more people are coming on board, because you can just get the code out there so much faster, and really in smaller increments. So, a lot of times, when we've developed things and we've delivered functionality for the business, because you're dealing with large monoliths, you have to change, you know, one of the applications I mentioned, you've got 200 services, about 600 operations, bundled into the same ball of code. Now, we've separated that out into a bunch of microservices, so now, we can just implement this one thing, with very little to no impact to the business. I think one of the big fundamental shifts that we've seen, we have historically done the large Saturday night deployments, right. You show up Saturday night at 7:00 p.m. and you hope you get to go home Sunday. We've really shifted that model, so in Q1, in my space, we did 86 and a half percent of our changes in production, during the day, right in the middle of the business day. >> Stu: Is it scary? >> It was at first, in all honesty, because my biggest fear is having to explain things to leadership, you know why did it go wrong, the root cause, and all that kind of stuff. But because we're able to move so fast now, we're able to get the code out there. We're able to see, okay, is this working? Roll it back really quickly, leveraging blue-green. Scale is another thing. Every year, iPhone. iPhone is a scary time I think, for pretty much any wireless operator. And historically, we've had to go out and buy more physical servers. So, you're buying these servers, you're building em. It takes months to build em, stand em up, and you're doing that for a two-day event, a year. You end up carrying the costs of that hardware. Well, this last iPhone in September, you know the iPhone 8 and the iPhone X, because we were predominately running in our cloud-native environment, and our cloud foundry environment, spun up the containers. >> Does that live in a public cloud? >> That lives in a private cloud, On-Prem. >> Stu: Okay. So we just spun up the containers, got through the event, spun em down. >> Okay, you had enough infrastructure capacity, you just didn't need it to be kind of-- >> Yeah. Well, and we're able to target the specific services, right. In our TIBCO landscape, we operate, in the old BW environment we operated about 200 years, comes out to about 14 hundred services. So, when you're scaling up, you're having to do it, more or less, for everything, but running in the Pivotal environment, we're able to just target, okay this, you know, like a get customer info. It's like a basic call when you log into MyT-Mo. You're able to just take that, double it, triple it, whatever you need to do. Maybe this other call over here, you know, we don't have to touch that. So you're just being way more efficient with your resources. >> So, Rob, if you can do these updates all the time, do you still love patching as much as you used to? >> The patching is the devil. I actually, the 10 to 15 people that Chuck was talking about on stage today, those are the guys that actually operate the physical hardware, you know, the Diego cells and whatnot. I meet with them on a weekly basis, and we kind of go through the state of things, and planning, and all that kind of stuff. Almost every time, I end that meeting with, "I just don't want to patch anything, anymore." So, the more we get onto this environment, the easier it is for me As we're trying to do this dev/ops transformation at T-Mobile, we're getting there, and we're doing it. You know, one of the things we ask ourselves is, should a dev/ops team have to care about patching? Why is a developer going to say, "Oh, my OS is a version behind, "I need to take care of that." That's not useful to the business, right? That takes away time that that developer can be creating new things and adding value. >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, if you think about, you know in a public cloud environment, I don't think about that, you know, what version of ah-jur-ware you're running isn't something that people ask. Private cloud, if it's going to live up to what we want it to, it should have a similar type of dynamic. >> Exactly, and our platform team is amazing. I mean, they take care of that stuff for us. I'm a heavy user. So I think Chuck talked about this a little. He didn't really talk about the volume, but we started on our Pivotal journey a couple years ago. I think first started dabbling 2015, but we really didn't start converting our large monolithic middleware until the beginning of 2017. So, right now, we are doing 250 million transactions a day, on our Pivotal platform, just with two, or, I'm sorry, three of my platforms running in there. >> Last thing I want to ask you, Rob. What key learnings have you had, going through this transformation? What do you say to your peers, that they could do better or look out for or plan, to help them? >> I think the main learning that we've had is just how important it is to partner together, with the hardware people, the developers, and the operations people. Coming together, it's a cultural shift in many respects. Like they say in dev/ops, a lot of people talk about it, they don't realize how hard it is to do, but hardware has to be a part of that. Coming together, luckily, we had a couple stumblings, in the beginning, but we were quickly able to huddle together between kind of these three core groups and really work together and overcome those challenges. I think the second thing that's really important is just to be open and honest with each other. Everybody makes mistakes. I think a lot of times, there's cases of, oh this is platform problem, oh it's a software problem. You know, there's a little finger-pointing here and there, from time to time, but getting through that, being open, honest, communicative with each other, it just makes the world so much easier and better for us. >> Well, Rob, my entire IT career, you know we've wanted everybody to hold hands (Rob laughs) and get in the circle together, bust through those silos, so, you know, making progress though. Thank you so much for sharing the story of T-Mobile. Watch more coverage here from the Cloud Foundry Summit, here in Boston, Massachusetts. I'm Stu Miniman. You're watching the Cube.

>> Narrator: From Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE, covering Cloud Foundry Summit 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Foundry Foundation. >> Welcome back I'm Stu Miniman, and this is theCUBE's coverage of Cloud Foundry Summit 2018, here in Boston, Massachusetts. Happy to welcome to the program first time guest, founder and CEO of a start-up, solo.io, Idit Levine. Thank you so much for joining us. >> Thank you so much for having me. >> All right, so one of the things we were talking in the open. Lauren Cooney, who you know, and I were talking about, well, you know, Cloud Foundry. We've been talking about digital transformation. The enterprise for years, but there's always these new technologies. It was, you know, Kubernetes came this wave, now server-less is the wave, and you know, Amazon's kind of overarching, you know, discussion in the market place. That's why I'm glad to bring you in because your company, a startup, plays across a number of these, you know, emerging spaces in the Cloud Foundry space. So, give our audience a little bit about your background and what led to the foundation of solo.io. >> Yeah, thanks. So I was in start-up all my life. I worked in DynamicOps, we got acquired by VMWare, so vRealize, if you remember. And then I moved to another start-up, got inquired by Verizon, so cloud switch, who was moving back in the day from micro, from on prem to off prem. And then I moved to Dell EMC, to the city office and that was great because what I was doing was basically started the dojo of Cloud Foundry. So, me and Ryan Gallagher, if you know him, and Patrick Dennis, we are the three who started it and we basically co-located with the Cloud Foundry team and we worked very, very closely with them. And what we did, what I was doing a lot was bringing in innovation so we created some opensource projects like Key Unique if you heard about it about UniCare, you know, building and running UniCare. We worked with a lot of the ecosystem and the reason we started Solo is because I felt, I really feel, I really felt that the EMC is a great place but that it sometimes slow you down because of the big organization and I felt that we can do much faster outside. So that's why we opened, we started Solo, and all the purpose with Solo is basically playing two tracks. One of them is we really, really want people to use our product, so we want to target the people who has the problem, which is the enterprise. So that's where we're really, really targeting to help them move to what we really master which is the opensource community, so all the innovation. So, that's exactly what we're doing, basically helping them to take their monolithic application, move them to microservices and to Serverless, but by using very, very unique and innovative technology like Envoy and a lot of others. >> Okay, so we hear a lot of times it's you know, of course, companies, they need to move faster. They need to go through this transformation. It's the API economy. And that's, I think, where Gloo fits in there. So Gloo is spelled G-L-O-O, >> Right. >> What's a function gateway? How does this help with, kind of, you know, is it API Sprawl these days? Or, you know, all these various services. You know, how is this the glue that brings everything together? >> So as I said, we're working in two ecosystems, right? The first one is the enterprise. So the main use case that we are trying to solve as I said is the movement. We wanted to make sure that people will be able to take the monolithic and at least extend them to microservices like Cloud Foundry and Kubernetes, and to Serverless, and also in the free time to kind of like move it. So that was kind of like our purpose. But we needed some technology for that, and we looked outside and discovered that the first thing that we needed is probably a very good API gateway. But it need to route on the function level, and it need to discover the function, and a lot of technology that just wasn't exist back then. So what we did was basically build one, which is Gloo. That's the first thing that we needed because we had no choice. There wasn't anything that actually we seriously, and trust me, and looking very well of all the opensource project, there's nothing like what we built out there, in terms of the quality of the technology and what we're capable of doing. So that's why we built it. We didn't plan to make it a product, but that was the purpose. And the second thing. Now we're building more stuff, and we need maybe to extend to service-match, or function-match, like we call it. Again, not because we want to. Because we have no choice. Right? So this is not a core product, but it's really, we're building is about, we're targeting everything that's related to this use case and we're trying to move. >> Okay, so Google and Microsoft in their keynotes talked about an API gateway, opensource project, I hear service-match, I'm thinking about ISDL. How does Gloo fit-- >> So as I said, there's a beautiful, we are not competing because as I said, at the beginning, my purpose, look, I will look at the situation. That's how somebody can use it. But they're just not moving fast enough for us as a startup. So we had to actually create it. Now, when we created it, we created it specifically to our use case, right? We needed the function, that we knew that our purpose was to take all that, those ecosystems of monolithic, microservices, and Serverless, and look and see, what is the smallest unit of compute that's common between them, and cut everything to it, and that's the function. So basically, what we're doing, we're taking all these ecosystems, cut everything to function, and then reassemble a movement between them. That's something that they just didn't give us, so we had to build it. But the beauty of it is because we are, you know, we are really innovative and that's what we know how to do, we decided to leverage the opensource, so for instance is build on Envoy, right, because it is the best proxy that exists today. And we extended it, because we needed some functionalities, so we created a lot of filter, right? Because it was very important to us to make Envoy basically have this functionality. So we are not competing with none of them, because mainly, that's not what we're doing. We're just focusing on the use case. But theoretically, if you're looking at API gateway, I will say hands down we're probably the best that exists out there, which is, that's not what we started with. >> Yeah, it's really smart, coming, you know, no small startup's going to be, oh, well, we're going to, you know, in Silicon Valley maybe they think they're going to take down the giants and break the world and competing is everything, but I like you actually spent some time working in the EMC CTO office, and there are certain things we will always look at. And it's like, there's this gap. Here's what we have today, and here's absolutely where we know where the market is going. >> Right. >> So, you know, the analogy I hear today is like, well, customers they've got their applications. They need to modernize them. So it's been the last year or so, there's been this discussion of lift and shift. It made people cringe. I said, you know, I've lifted the virtualization way. One of the biggest challenges where, was I took this old application which, to be frank, stunk, and I kept it alive for years longer, even though the server was no longer supported, the OS was no longer supported, but I could just virtualize it and that was great. I want to get to 12-factor, microservice architecture, even Serverless might be the foundation that I'd like to build this. I cannot lift and shift to get Serverless. There is no path from old to there. So it sounds like you're >> What we're doing. Trying to attack some of that there, am I getting that right? >> Yes, I mean, basically, I will give you an example of a customer that we have, right? So, they came, their monolithic application, right? And they really want it to move. And you know, it's really hard to maintain this, so they said, you know what, we really want it to move to Serverless. That's the engineering part, right? They're saying, we want it to move to engineering. They came to the boss and they said, well, what we want to do is to take it, rewrite it, and put it as a greenfield, right? Basically as a Serverless. So the boss said, no problem, go, evaluate how much time it will take, and then come back to me. So they went and they did it, and they basically came with nine months. So the boss said, okay, so, no. And the reason is because nine months means a year, and also, I didn't get any feature on this year. Right? They will fire me. So what we're doing is we're saying, take this monolithic application, it's working, don't touch it, extend it. First of all, extend, on the new functionality, going to the Serverless and to microservices, and we're supporting everything, and it's brand new. I mean, I can start telling you what is the platform that we support. It's almost everything. And then, the second thing is that, on your spare time, start breaking it. Now, there's no magic. I know people are saying there's an algorithm. That's never going to work. Trust me, and I did a lot of software in my life. You can't guess this stuff. You actually need to rewrite them. But on your spare time, when you're available, and on the way, you know, on your pace of learning. And I feel that that's what we're giving. We're basically giving them the freedom to do that on their spare time, and we're giving a lot of other tools, like for instance, debug. So we create, we opensource a project called Squash, that basically be able to attach debuggers to microservices, to Serverless, and to monolithic, in different language, different everything, and jump between them. So you basically can create what I call library up, and jump cross that. So I feel that what we're targeting is basically make this movement easy, with any technology that we can put out there. >> Yeah. The whole application modernization is a real challenge. If I look at, you know, in this space, Pivotal's acquisition of Pivotal Labs was to help them. A lot of services, things that we're looking at, Pivotal going public. How much of their business is actually services, how much of it is you know, subscription and software? How much are you, is this just tooling you're building, or are you helping customers get through some of the services that maybe it's time for you to talk, how many people do you have on your team? Like, I look at the website, I see like five people, so. >> Yeah, that's actually what we are. So I mean, specifically, we are five. We are startup. We got actually really well funded from True Ventures, great, great investors. And what was important to me, was not to do a lot of mistakes of the other startups doing, which is basically scale too fast, right? I wanted first to putting a product out there, I want to see what's going on. And today, because we opensource, because we all can use Amazon and so on, we don't need a lot of money to actually create the additional projects. So that's what we did. Specifically, I can tell I'm getting a lot of resumes and right now, I'm actually pushing them back, because it's really, really important to me to scale on the right side. Now we're starting to have customers, we will have to scale, right? So that's that. In terms of how much, so that's enough. We are five and as I said, it's good, but we are not in the services. Actually people they're doing an amazing job. We don't want to touch that. What we do want to make sure is that they're giving the tools to do them themselves and they will hire probably people to do the services. >> Are you able to share how much funding, you said True Ventures is one of the funding? >> So we got 2.5 from True Ventures, and then we got 500 from Haystack and another 250 from Wave Ventures, capital. >> Okay, and five people. You're hiring too. What are you looking for? >> Yeah, so we're definitely going to hire more. We need a full stack engineer, we need a system engineer. Right now it's very flat architecture. A lot of really, really good people. I mean, my engineers are people who was in the Israeli Army as lackers, you know, very, very technical. People who are, walk with me in EMC, and so on. Very, very good people. And our purpose is to grow as system engineers a little bit, UI, and we also need some help to scale. >> And you're located here in Boston, correct? >> I am, I am. I have one engineer in Seattle, but all the rest are here. >> Okay, and the products itself, you know, opensource, and the things that are available, so-- >> For now, so we started as an open, we did put it as an opensource project. This is the platform I feel should be opensource. But there will be features that we will not opensource. A lot of more things that makes sense for the enterprise, we will not opensource. But yeah, right now, everything is opensource, and we wanted to share for the community. >> Okay, and from the customers you're talking to, what's their biggest challenge, you know, things like Serverless, you know, are they getting their arms around it, especially, you know, out here in the east coast, as opposed to, you know, some of the startups in the like? >> So actually, people in the enterprise, I mean, I think I nailed the use case, because you know, I went, I'm talking a lot in conference, QCon is one of the conference that I really, really liked and talked a lot, and when I talk there to the people, everybody has this problem, which I have a monolithic, how do you move them? Most of them trying to move to container right now. That's where it is. But the beauty of how we built Gloo, and that was totally on purpose, is the fact that, and I actually have a diagram showing it, today those enterprise that are only using monolithic. I don't know, like Bank of America, I think is only monolithic. Then if you're looking, there's people only using microservices, probably Google and others. And then there is companies like iRobot for instance. So it's going all the way to Serverless. That's all there, right? Bam, which is amazing. But, and there is companies that's sharing it, right? That means they're microservices and Serverless, so monolithic, and then. And EMC for instance, they have like Serverless, microservices and monolithic. What we're trying to do is basically, the beauty of what we build, is basically a platform on top of an envoy. So we can actually create the customized offer for you that will be only what you need. And what we will help you is to basically glue, this is what the name, glue your environment, so it will give you one experience that you can manage it or you can mix and match, you can do whatever you want, and it's really, really clean. So when I'm talking to customers today, mainly where they are is like monolithic to microservices, but they love this use case. I mean, I didn't meet a customer yet that I show him the demo of how we're taking a spring boot application and move it, and he said that they don't want it to proceed. So it's good. >> Wow. Fascinating stuff. I really appreciate you sharing. Definitely, we hear from customers all the time. It's moving from the old to the new, it's I need to live in both of those worlds, and they can't split those teams, it can't be islands, I need to pull this together. It's definitely through a multi-cloud, and seems like it's happening in the development environment too. So, Idit Levine, solo, congratulations on where you've gone. Look forward to catching up much more in the future. We're back with lots more coverage here from the Cloud Foundry summit in Boston, Massachusetts. I'm Stu Miniman. Thanks for watching theCUBE.

>> Announcer: From Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE! Covering Cloud Foundry Summit 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Foundry Foundation. >> Hi I'm Stu Miniman, and this is theCUBE's coverage of Cloud Foundry Summit 2018 in Boston, Massachusetts. Happy to welcome to the program another one the keynote speakers here at the show. Johan Den Haan, who is the CTO of Mendix. A company that handles, is in the low-code space. Had a nice demo they did yesterday. Thanks for joining me. >> Yeah great, great to be here, thanks for having me. >> Johan, first of all, tell us a little bit about your background, the company. We're here in Boston, there's connections to Boston for the company? >> Definitely, our headquarters is here in Boston. So if you look at Mendix as a company, we founded the company a while back, for the sole reason to solve the problem that application development and enterprise is still very hard and error-prone. I mean, if you think about statistics around enterprise software development, most of the projects fail because it's not fast enough, not aligned to do business, things like that. So what we do as a company is help other companies thrive in a software-driven world. To make sure that they can build software from initial idea to a working application with speed. So as quickly as possible in collaboration. Because if you build something, you want to involve business people and IT people, and let them collaborate on creating the right software solution, but also in control, because we're doing it for an enterprise so you want to make sure you can control the entire process and do it in a way that helps enterprises. >> Alright, so Johan, I think back to times in my career when you talk about a softer rollout. It's like oh we're going to do this big initiative, let's bring in the consultants, we're going to spend 12 to 18 months, which turns into 24 months, and we're going to spend a ton of money and we're going to bring this application that's for the enterprise, and going to do things great. Now I talk to some companies and they're like, "Oh hey, I'm doing my ERB rollout. "I thought it was going to take me six months, "I did it in three months because I spun it up in the cloud." That's kind of the infrastructure piece, but from the application side, there's this trend with Mendix, I see low-code in there. I think some people hear it, there's low-code, there's a more controversial term no-code out there. What does this really mean, because at the end of the day, I still have my application, I have my data, what am I building, or am I just taking components? Help us understand this trend and how it fits for Mendix. >> Maybe start with the infrastructure side, as you started there. If you look at infrastructure, what we've done there is basically abstraction and automation. That way, we moved up in the stack, and then automated all the things underneath. Which is valuable, but it's only a small piece of the application life cycle. And if you think about delivering an entire application, it's more than that. And in the development part of the life cycle, you can do the same thing. You can also do abstraction and automation because if you think about applications, then a lot of the elements are the same across applications. You think about an information system, you need to have some data, UI, logic of course, and the basics, and what you can do is abstract away to a higher level, maybe a visual level. That's what Mendix does, having visual models to define your data, your logic, the business processes, as well as the UI, dragging and dropping widgets, creating user interfaces across channels, so mobile web. And then turn these models into a working application automatically. But you don't have to worry about all the technical details like if I hit this button in my UI, will it actually properly call my beckons, and trigger an action and store something in the database. These are all things that can be automated. That's what the difference is across different applications. >> How does this relate to microservices architectures? >> That's a good question, because in a lot of cases if you hear people talk about lockout, or basically came from the whole model driven development movement, then people think that using visual models you extract from detail so you have less control, so you can only build simple toy applications. But that's not where we are nowadays. This is really a next generation of using models to drive software development, where you can have complex applications with the underlying architecture, to your needs. So instead of targeting a simple client server application, we target a microservices architecture. So you can quickly build these microservices, easily re-use data across these services, but all in a visual way. So instead of having to be an architect, and building all the cloud native elements in your microservices, you can just focus on the business functionality. And if you hit the button, it will generate this cloud-native microservice for you that can scale on, as we are on cloud foundation, on Cloud Foundry, for example. >> Great, maybe it might help if you walk us through it's tough to say a typical customer, maybe give me a customer example or two, as to the problem they were having, and how this helped them move faster, I'm assuming, as part of the outcome they're looking for. >> Let's start with a small example, so just to go through all the steps of creating an application. So one of our customers is this airline company, and they had an issue with productivity. Because the main thing for them is if you maintain an airplane, to get it back in the air as soon as possible. Because if it's on the ground, it costs you money, and if it's up in the air, it can bring you money, right? So one of the mechanics in this company came up with an idea for an application that would help him be much more productive. And that's, I think also, a core element of a lockout platform, is that this collaboration that we bring with the Mendix application platform is that you can involve these people in actually being part of the application delivery team. So this mechanic teamed up with somebody who knew Mendix and said whoa, my main problem is, when I lose time, is that I don't know where my equipment is. Because they have these large areas where they maintain these planes, and you have all this specific equipment that you need for different parts of maintenance. So the very simple thing of it is that they tax the equipment with IT beat-ons, and then you build a simple app that listens to all the locations projected on the screen, so what they did was build a simple data model. So, added some entities visually, like I have my equipment, there's a location to it, and I build a UI on top of that, so drag-and-drop some widgets, or google maps widgets, to visualize the location. And then some logic that if you hit a button, you want to look up in equipment, or you want to say you're using it so that somebody else knows that, and things like that. So in just six days, they've gone through this entire process, iterating quickly. And then, they had the app, and it saves them, I think on average, half an hour per day, per mechanic. So if you have a couple hundred mechanics, that's some real money on the table, with just six days of development but the key is that it's not somebody in the head office thought about how to solve the issue of maintainability and efficiency. But it was just somebody on the floor came up with a creative idea and had the tools to quickly experiment and get it into production. >> Great, so, we're here at the Cloud Foundry Summit, can you explain how Mendix fits with Cloud Foundry and then, what other solutions do you have out there because Cloud Native's a rather big environment these days. >> So if you look back, Mendix joined the Cloud Foundry foundation as one of the early movers. And the reason for that is that, when you start to look at this application life cycle and make it (mumbles) speed, calibration, and control do that's fast, then you start with development, but that's also just one piece. So, in the early days we had a customer that was building a work flow application, so automating a certain work flow for publishing magazines. And they were struggling in dot net's for six months already and they didn't have any tangible thing yet. So we came in, we were an early startup, via relations so they were like oh, you can try it. So six weeks later, we had this entire work flow automated, and then they said, we have to take this in production, because this will save us money on a daily basis. And then, okay, go talk with IT and they said well, Mendix we don't know what it is, and by the way, how do we learn this and we need to order hardware. That was the moment that we realized, it's not just about development it's about the delivery of the entire application. So it was called Cloud then, back in 2007 when we had this. We started to host application, made that do the same thing there so one click deployments to solve that issue as well, because you have the same thing that you need expertise to run applications. But instead of that we abstract away from the details and we just run it in the Cloud. And then in 2014, Cloud Foundry came up and we realized we should replace our home-grown past layer that we created with an open-source foundation so that we are completely portable because we want to offer our customers the freedom to deploy anywhere, whether it's on their private cloud running on one of the distributions of Cloud Foundry, on the IBM cloud, the SAP cloud. But I think it's a really happy marriage between Mendix, which is completely complimentary to Cloud Foundry. But both with the same philosophy about automating things, abstracting away from the details, and making it much more productive to develop application one handed but also to deploy and operate them. >> It sounds like a good fit for Cloud Foundry to handle certain things lower-level in the stack, while you're handling the upper-level in the stack. Is it only Cloud Foundry is Mendix supported on other Cloud solutions, or beyond Cloud Foundry? >> Our strategy is to be completely agnostic to underlying infrastructure, so we also run on any dock or base system. So Cubernitas, but also ECS from Amazon, for example. So yeah, whatever we can run a dock content on you can run Mendix and we can scale out because of our Cloud Native architecture. >> Who's the typical person that your company is working with? Is it the developer side that carries the business? Because developers often times do things but don't have the budget for them, and you mentioned some of the developer-operator challenges so I'm curious that Mendix is dynamic with companies. >> That's a great question, because if you look at the developer landscape, it's kind of widening. Because you don't have just the professional developer, that is able to build so far, but with low-card you have more business-oriented people that can join these teams as well. So if you look at the typical team that's building applications using the Mendix platform, I would call them Best Staff Ops teams. You have death ops joining operation development, but this is also joining the business into this same cross-functional team. So a typical team building software using Mendix is like if you have five people on a team, you often have one professional developer, but four people with a business background. They are tech savvy, they maybe have a background as a BI consultant or an SLP consultant or these kind of roles, but they don't have a computer science background, but they are involved in building the software. And a great advantage of course is that they are domain experts in the area they are building the software for. So you can be really enabling the business and being of value to the business. >> Last question, the company itself, how many employees, how many customers, just give us kind of a thumbnail of the company. >> So we have around a thousand enterprise customers. Company size is currently north of 350 people, growing fast. It's crazy hiring all the people that we need to, because the market is really hot. If you look at low-cord, I think it's really the next generation of application development becoming a main-stream option that any enterprise needs to have to deliver the applications they need. And slightly tied to your previous question, it's also solving the talent gap. You've seen all these rallying cries around, everybody needs to learn to code to solve the problem that we need more software than we can build. I don't think that is the solution. We will never have so many people that can develop software. We need a paradigm shift. And that paradigm shift will enable us to build software faster, 10 times faster than you're used to with traditional programming languages, but also with a much broader group of people. More business-oriented people, so a group of people that can use a low-code platform is minimally 10 times bigger than the professional developer group. And that's what we need to solve this problem in the software-driven world that we live in. >> Johan Den Haan, CTO of Mendix, thanks so much for joining me. I'm Stu Miniman, this is theCUBE Cloud Foundry Summit 2018. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: From Boston, Massachusetts, it's TheCUBE, covering Cloud Foundry Summit 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Foundry Foundation. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman and this is theCUBE's coverage of Cloud Foundry Summit 2018. Always excited when we get to talk to some of the users. And joining me this segment is Adam Furtado, who is the Chief of Product with Kessel Run at US Air Force. Adam, you were saying you're not a big Star Wars guy, but was the name come from the derivation of the famous Millennium Falcon Kessel Run? Yes, I am a Star Wars geek, you know. >> It certainly was and the rest of our team are Star Wars nuts, so I've had to pick up things along the way so I like to joke that we're delivering capability to our users in 12 parsecs or quicker. >> Yeah, and if you're not a, whether you are or aren't a Star Wars fan, you look at it and say, parsecs is a measure of distance, not time. That's still infuriating for us to watch. Adam, tell us a little bit about your background and what your group does that the US Air Force that we don't need to explain the US Air Force. >> Sure, so my background is actually an intelligence professional as a warfighter enlisted in the Air Force for ten years. From there, I started working in IT systems and I got out of the Air Force and really was on the acquisition side of the house where we were the provider for capabilities for our warfighters. So, over that time, I learned a lot about how we struggle with getting capability to our users with any kind of speed or quality. Kessel Run is an effort to revolutionize the way that we build and deliver software to our warfighters and we are well on our way. >> That sounds like an awesome project. Can you give us just roughly how do you get your arms around how big this is, how many applications or people are involved in it or, you know, the scope of what you're doing. >> Sure. We set out to modernize the Air and Space Operation Center so we have AOCs all around the world that basically are where all the planning for air warfare takes place. So it's a large legacy system that is under a lens. So, they've really struggled in modernizing that baseline system. We've been designing a brand new system to modernize for about ten years and we just haven't been able to get it to the field for a ton of DoD bureaucratic and acquisitions reasons. So basically, Congress told us to figure something new out. So we had a small team that was tired of working this way and tired of not being able to provide this capability to the warfighters. We got together and we looked at industry to be quite frank. And found that the other bureaucratic regulated industries were able to take steps to move closer towards our digital transformation. So we kind of followed along and took some practices that we learned from them and tried to apply it to the government. >> Yeah, fascinating space. Governments' big focus this week at the show, there was the announcement about Cloud.gov. There is a whole track on government here. But, I want you to talk about your Cloud Foundry usage. Button General? How's the thinking of modernization, digitalization, there was a big Cloud First initiative from the federal government for a while. How do those forces play together? >> Sure, yeah, there's a ton of innovation type of activities taking place throughout the government and the DoD. With Cloud Foundry, we just found that because of our, we frankly have a lack of software development and engineering talent that's inherent to the Air Force. We have actually a career field for software developers that's been dwindling over the years. So being able to find that talent's been really hard. So with our Cloud Foundry commercial platform, being able to abstract the technical complexity that it does allows us to grow our software developers in a different way, focusing on identifying the character traits, the empathy and learning mindset that we can take and grow them by having that platform as a backbone to kind of be our foundation, I guess, is really was the emphasis of us going in this direction. It's really worked out so far. >> Yeah, just going through my head are all these discussions that we've had for years about how we need to go from monolithic, hierarchical to distributive architectures and that's been happening in the military a lot too. >> Very much so, yeah. What we're trying to replace is that massive monolithic system that takes us ten years to design and develop with no meaningful user input and at the end of the day, if we even get it out to the field, it's not the right thing. 96% of federal IT projects are over budget or over schedule and 40% of them never see a user at all, never get fielded. There's a lot of room for improvement in this space. We've been able to kind of tackle some of the, some of the easier things, but also tackle some more complex things. Similar to technology. But the policy, the testing of the security behind it as well that we've been kind of focusing on to move the entire DoD and entire Air Force forward. >> Yeah. So, security, I would think, is a major concern. How does that fit in to your thinking and how does security fit in to your architecture? >> We're always thinking about security. Cyber security is obviously really important to the DoD and our space. We feel that with, being able to automate more of the security with utilizing a platform and the pipelines that we have gets to a better place and we're more secure today than we were yesterday. We're always learning too, right? So, we're more secure today than we were literally yesterday. And we're going to be more secure tomorrow by learning how to move forward and learn more about cyber security. That's always something on our mind and we feel like we're in a good place. >> The majority of Cloud Foundry users are doing, they're a private or private hosted environment. Can you share, do you leverage public clouds at all? Or is it all kind of in-house data centers? How does that fit into the mix? >> So our unclassified developments is the AWS gov cloud and then we have hybrid solutions that we use on other networks. >> Okay, yeah. AWS just launched that, I believe it's their secret region, too, so that they're capable, but I guess your team or you can't talk about it, isn't leveraging it yet. >> Yeah, I'd rather not go there. (laughs) >> No worries. So, you're speaking at this show. What's your experience, what kind of things are you sharing and working on? >> We're really heavily relying on culture. So we had a couple of our team members speak this morning, giving more of an overview of our efforts and what we've been able to achieve so far. I'm focusing on how we can overcome some of the challenges that are inherent to the DoD. I mentioned earlier, native engineering development and talent. How we can change the way that we do organizational management. Our traditional hierarchal top down way of organizing doesn't breed innovation normally, right? So we're looking at different ways to organize our own team. So one of those reasons, all of our dev teams work in a balanced team concept with no uniforms, all on a first name basis. So we're basically taking, uniforms are really to strip the individualism away from people, but we kind of need that for creativity and to be able to solve conflicts, problems, and things like that. So we're really focusing on lifting the psychological safety needed to be creative and have our lowest ranking people feel as comfortable as our highest ranking people and IDA and coming up with ways to do things. >> That's fascinating actually. We've been talking a lot about relationships between the groups and the devs and the operators, but you start putting rank in there, which any company has some of that inherently, but the military very much is physical when you see them all the time. >> Absolutely. It's actually, our airmen have really adapted to it and they love it. It's one of those things where it's interesting, maybe a little bit different than commercial industry in that our airmen are our developers and our airmen are also our users so there's invested interest in improving things for the better for their fellow airmen. It's been really great to see and people have really dove in and embraced it. Developers are doing really well. >> What kind of lessons learned would you share? That you're sharing in your speech and talking to your peers. What kind of things would you share with them? >> I think the biggest thing I'm talking about today is to avoid getting in this trap of trying to find the perfect person with the right technical acumen. I think having a foundation is important, but more important is finding people who have empathy for users and learning mindsets and are able to get out of their comfort zone and learn new things. Building cloud innovative applications and 12 factor applications are inherently new to the DoD effectively. It's funny, we talk about how dev options, you know, innovative in our world when the commercial industry probably scoffs at that, but innovation is defined as the instruction of something new. It really is innovative in the DoD space to work in this way. We're seeing a lot of momentum throughout the services, and the DoD and we're really heading in the right direction. >> It's great to hear. Innovation and government can happen. We've done lots of interviews over the last few years to talk about it. Anything you'd like to share about ways that your organization or peer organizations are moving things forward that people might be surprised to hear about? >> I'd say the most important thing is finding the right people. A lot of the times, we've found that our most senior leadership in the government is very much interested in innovating and moving things forward in the right way and there's this innovation ecosystem below that is driving things. So it's basically the education that needs to happen at the middle level of that frozen middle. That sometimes can thwart innovation by a lack of that knowledge, I guess, or the lack of understanding of what we're doing. We've got what feels like a parade of education and trying to share the things we've learned with other people in the government. It helps us remove some of those bureaucratic barriers and then it's like really progress where we need to. >> Alright, Adam, last question I have for you. Something we're all struggling with, the pace of change these days. Seems every time you get on a new technology, the next one's there. You mentioned, you know, like, well, dev ops, we've been talking about for years but you're getting on. How does your organization look at that? How do you keep up with what's happening in the world? >> So I think, Cloud Foundry is an example of how these commercial solutions have helped us do that. Now, we say like, speed is the new security, we're able to be truly agile in that we're able to change and adapt to things as we need to. I think in the old model, it took us so long to adapt and get things out into the field that change was almost impossible. Whereas in this way of working, we're able to learn things every single day, keep our learning loops very short, and then react to them. So I think it's been a great way to take some of the things we've learned and implement them. >> Adam Furtado, I really appreciate you sharing your story from the US Air Force. Fascinating stuff. We'll be back with more coverage here at the Cloud Foundry Summit 2018. I'm Stu Miniman, thanks for watching theCUBE. (bouncy music)

(electronic music) >> Announcer: From Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE. Covering Cloud Foundry Summit 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Foundry Foundation. >> I'm Stu Miniman, and this is theCUBE's coverage of Cloud Foundry Summit 2018, here in beautiful Boston, Massachusetts. Happy to welcome to the program first-time guest, Dr. Nic Williams, CEO of Stark and Wayne. Dr. Nic, thanks for joining me >> Thank you very much. I think you must've come to the conference from a different direction than I came. >> I'm a local, and I'm trying to get more people to come to the Boston area. We've been doing theCUBE now for, coming up on our ninth year of doing it, and it's only the third time I've done something in this convention center, so please, more tech shows to this area, Boston, the Hynes Convention Center, and things like that. >> There's plenty of tech people. I was at the Nero Cafe, everyone seemed like they were a tech person. >> Oh no, the Seaport region here is exploding. I've done two interviews today with companies here in Boston or Cambridge. There's a great tech scene. For some reason, you and I were joking, it's like, do we really need another conference in Vegas? I mean really. >> Dr. Nic: Right, no, I like the regional. >> But yeah, the weather here is unseasonably cold. It was snowing and sleeting this morning, which is not the Spring weather. >> It is April, it is mid-April, and it's almost snowing outside. >> Alright, so Dr. Nic, first of all, you get props for the T-shirt. You've got Iron Man and Doctor Doom, and we're saying that there is a connection between the superheroes and Stark and Wayne. >> Right, so Stark and Wayne is founded by two fictional superheroes. The best founders are the fictional ones, they don't go to meetings, they're too busy making, you know, films. >> Yes, but everybody knows that Tony Stark is Iron Man, but nobody's supposed to know that Bruce Wayne was Batman. >> Nic: Right, right. >> But I've heard Stark and Wayne mentioned a number of times by customers here at the conference. So, for our audience that doesn't know, what does Stark and Wayne do, and how are you involved in the Cloud Foundry ecosystem? >> So Stark and Wayne, I first found Bosh, I founded Stark and Wayne. Earlier than that I discovered Bosh, six years ago, when it was first released, became like, I claimed to be the world's first evangelist for Bosh, and still probably the number one evangelist. And so Stark and Wayne came out of that. I was VMWare Pivotal's go-to person for standing things up and then customers grew, and you know. Yeah, people want to know who to go to, and when it comes to running Cloud Foundry, that's us. >> Yeah well, there's always that discussion, right? We've got all these wonderful platforms and these things that go together, but a lot of times there's services and people that help to get those up. Pivotal, just had a great discussion with a Pivotal person, talking about the reason they bought Pivotal Labs originally was like, wow, when people got stuck, that's what Pivotal Labs helps with that whole application development, so you're doing similar things with Bosh? >> Correct. No it's, we have our mental model around what it is to run operations of a platform, where you're running complex software, but you have an end user who expects everything just to work. And they never want to talk to you, and you don't want to talk to them. So it's this new world of IT where they get what they want instantly, that's the platform and it has to keep working. >> Dr Nic, is it an unreasonable thing for people to say that, yeah I want the things to work, and it shouldn't go down, and you know-- >> What is shadow IT? Shadow IT is the rebellion against corporate IT, so we want to bring back, well, we want to bring the wonders of public services to corporate environments. >> Okay, so-- >> That's the Cloud Foundry's story. >> Yeah, so talk to me a little bit about your users. We've watched this ecosystem mature since the early days, you know, things are more mature, but what's working well? What are the challenges? What are some of the prime things that have people calling up your team? >> So our scope, our users, or our customers, are people, they're the GEs and the Fords of the world running either as a service or internally large Cloud Foundry installations. And whilst Cloud Foundry is getting better and better, the security model is better, the upgrades seem to be flawless, it does keep getting more complex. You know, you can't just add container to container networking and it not get more complicated, right? So, yeah, trying to keep up-to-date with not just the core, but even the community of projects going on is part of the novelty, but also it's trying to bring it to customers and be successful. >> Yeah, I go to a number of these shows that are open source and every time you come there, it's like, "Well, here's the main things we're talking about "but here's six other projects that come up." How's that impact some of what you were just talking about? But, maybe elaborate as to how you deal with the pace of change, and those big companies, how are they help integrate those into what they're doing, or do they, you know-- >> So my Twitter is different from your Twitter. So my Twitter is 10 years worth of collecting of people who talk about interesting things, putting in a URL, just referencing an idea they're having, so they tend to be the thought leaders. They might be wrong, or like, let's put Docker into production, like, it doesn't make it wrong, but you've got to be wary of people who are too early. And you just start to peace a picture of what's being built, and you start to know which groups and which individuals are machines, and make great stuff, and you sort of track their work. Like HashiCorp, Mitchell Hashimoto, I knew him before HashiCorp, and he is a monster, and so you tend to track their work. >> So your Twitter and my Twitter might be more alike than you think. >> Nic: No maybe, right. >> I interviewed Armon at the Cube-Con show last year. My Twitter blowing up the show was a bunch of people arguing about whether Serverless was going to eradicate this whole ecosystem. >> Well, we can argue about that if you like, I guess. >> But love, one of the things coming into this show, was, you know, how does the whole Kubernetes discussion fit into Cloud Foundry? We've heard at this show, Microsoft, Google, many others, talking about, look, open source communities, they're going to work together. >> Well Windows is going to track things 'cause they think they need to sell them, right? But then Microsoft has Service Fabric, which they've owned and operated internally for 10 years, and so, I think some really interesting products may be built on top of Service Fabric, because of what it is. Whereas, you know, Kubernetes will run things, Service Fabric may build net new projects. And then Cloud Foundry's a different experience altogether, so some people, it's what problems they experienced, comes to the solution they find, and unless you've tried to run a platform for people, you might not think the solution's a platform. You might think it's Kubernetes, but-- >> Yeah, so one of the things we always look at when we talk about platforms, is what do they get stood up for? How many applications do you get to stand up there? What don't they work for? Maybe you could help give us a little bit of color as to what you see? >> I'm pretty good at jamming anything into Cloud Foundry, so I have a pretty small scope of what doesn't fit, but typically the idea of Cloud Foundry is the assumption the user is a developer who has 10 iterations a day. Alright, so they want to deploy, test, deploy, test, and then layer pipelines on top of that. You also get, you're going to get the backend of long, stable apps, but the value is, for many people, is that the deploy experience. And then, you know, but whilst, you're going to get those apps that live forever, we still get to replace the underlying core of it. So you still maintain a security model even for the things that are relatively unloved. Andthis is really valuable, like the nice, clean separation of the security, the package, CVEs, and the base OS, then the apps is part of the-- >> Yeah, absolutely, there's been an interesting kind of push and pull lately. We need to take some of those old applications, and we may need to lift and shift them. It doesn't mean that I can necessarily take advantage of all the cool stuff, and there are some things that I can't do with them when I get them on to that new platform. But absolutely, you need to worry about security, you know, data's like the center of everything. >> If you're lifting and shifting, there probably is no developer looking after it, so it's more of an operator function, and they can put it anywhere they like. They're looking after it now, whereas the Cloud Foundry experience is that developer-led experience that has an operations backend. If you're lifting and shifting, if it fits in Cloud Foundry, great, if it fits in Kubernetes, great. It's your responsibility. >> Yeah, what interaction do you have with your clients, with some of the kind of cultural and operational changes that they need to go through? So thinking specifically, you've go the developers doing things, you know, the operators, whether they're involved, whether that be devops or not, but I'm curious-- >> So the biggest change when it comes to helping people who are running platforms. And I know many people want to talk about the cloud transformation, but let's talk about the operations transformation, is to become a service-orientated group who are there to provide a service. Yes you're internal, yes they all have the same email address that you do, but you're a service-orientated organization, and that is not technology, that is a mental mode. And if you're not service-orientated, shadow IT occurs, because they can go to Amazon and get a support organization that will respond to them, and so you're competing with Amazon, and Google, and you need to be pretty good. >> Yeah, you mentioned that, you know, your typical client is kind of a large, maybe I'm putting words in your mouth, the Fortune 1000 type companies, does this sort of-- >> We haven't got Berkshire. We haven't got Berkshire, and so if we're going to go Fortune 5, you know, we'd like, I've read my Warren Buffett biography, I reckon the FA are here to meet him I reckon. >> Right, so one of the questions, is this only for the enterprise? Can it be used for smaller businesses, for newer businesses? >> What's interesting is people think about Cloud Foundry as like, "Oh you run it on your infrastructure." Like, I did a talk in 2014, 15, when Docker was starting to be frothy, was, before you think you want to build your own pass, ring me on the hotline. Like, argue with me about why you wouldn't just use Heroku, or Pivotal Web Services, or IBM Cloud, like a public pass. Please, I beg of you, before you go down any path of running on-prem anything, answer solidly the question of why you just wouldn't use a public service. And yeah, so it really starts at that point. It's like, use someone else's, and then if you have to run your own. So, who's really going to have all these rules? It's large organization that have these, "Oh, no, no, we have to run our own." >> Well doctor, one of the things we've said for a while, is there's lots of things that enterprise suck at, that they need to realize that they shouldn't be doing. So start at the most basic level, there's like five companies in the world that are good at building data centers, nobody else should build data centers, if you're using somebody else that can do that. So as you go up and up the stack, you want to get rid of the undifferentiated lifting, things like that, so-- >> I like to joke that every CIO, the moment they get that job, like that's their ticket to get to build their own data center. It's like, what else was the point of becoming a CIO? I want to build my own data center. >> No, not anymore, please-- >> Not anymore, but you know, plus they've been around a little longer than-- >> So, what is that line? What should companies be able to consume a platform, versus where do they add the value, and do you help customers kind of understand that that-- >> By the time they're talking to us, they're pretty far along having convinced themselves about what they're doing. And they have their rules. They have their isolation rules, their data-ownership rules, and they'll have their level of comfort. So they might be comfortable on Amazon, Google, Azure, or they might still not be comfortable with public cloud, and they want the vSphere, but they still have that notion of we're going to run this ourselves. And most of them it's not running one, because that idea of we need our own, propagates throughout the entire organization, and they'll start wanting their own Cloud Foundry-- >> Look, I find that when I talk to users, we, the vendors, and those that watch the industry, always try to come up with these multi-cloud hybrid cloud-type discussion. Users, have a cloud strategy, and it's usually often siloed just like everything else, and right, they're using-- >> Developers-- >> I have some data service, and it's running on Google-- >> Developers just want to have a nice life. >> Microsoft apps. >> They just want to get their work done. They want to feel like, "Alright this is a great job, "like, I'm respected, I get interesting work, "we get to ship it, it actually goes into production." I think if you haven't ever had a project you've worked on that didn't go into production, you haven't worked long enough. Many of us work on something for it not to be shipped. Get it into production as quick as possible and-- >> So, do you have your, you know, utopian ideal world though as to, this is the step-- >> Oh, absolutely-- >> And this is how it'll be simple. >> Tell developers what the business problems are. Get them as close to the business problems, and give them responsibility to solve them. Don't put them behind layers of product managers, and IT support-- >> But Dr. Nic, the developers, they don't have the budget-- >> Speak for utopian-- >> How do we sort through that, because, right, the developer says they want to do this, but they're not tied to the person that has the budget, or they're not working with the operators, I mean, how do we sort through that? >> How do we get to utopia? >> Stu: Yeah. Well, Facebook, Google, Microsoft, they all solved utopia, right? So, this is, think more like them, and perhaps the CEO of the company shouldn't come from sales, perhaps it should be an IT person. >> Well, yeah, what's the T-shirt for the show? It was like running at scale, when you reach a certain point of scale, you either need to solve some of these things, or you will break? >> Right, alright look, hire great sales organizations, but if you don't have empathy for what your company needs to look like in five years time, you're probably not going to allow your organization to become that. The power games, alright? If everyone assumes that the marketing department becomes the top of the organization, or the, you know, then the good people are going to leave to go to organizations where they might be become CEO one day. >> Alright, Dr. Nic, want to give you the final word. For the people that haven't been able to come to the sessions, check out the environment, what are they missing at this show? What is exciting you the most in this ecosystem? >> Like any conference you go to, you come, the learning is all put online. Your show is put online, or every session is put online. You don't come just to learn. You get the energy. I live in Australia, I work from a coffee shop, my staff are all in America, and so to come and just to get the energy that you're doing the right thing, that you get surrounded by a group of people, and certainly no one walks away from a CF Summit feeling like they're in the wrong career. >> Excellent. Well, Dr. Nic, appreciate you helping us understand the infinity wars of cloud environments here. Stark and Wayne, thanks so much for joining us. I'm Stu Miniman, and you're watching theCUBE. >> Dr. Nic: Thanks Stu. (electronic music)

>> Announcer: From Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE! Covering Cloud Foundry Summit 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Foundry Foundation. >> I'm Stu Minamin and this is theCUBE's coverage of Cloud Foundry Summit 2018. Here in beautiful Boston, Massachusetts. Happy to welcome back to the program Chip Childers, who is the CTO of the Cloud Foundry Foundation. Chip, you started off this morning saying the runners this morning got a taste of the Boston Marathon. >> They did, they did! >> It's raining, it's cold, it's miserable. >> Yesterday was beautiful. >> At least there was less wind. >> Yesterday was absolutely beautiful. So we kicked off the summit, beautiful sun, but then we had our Fun Run this morning. >> As a local, I do apologize for the weather. Normally April's a great time. We want more tech coverage here in the area. More tech shows. We're in the center of a great tech hub, here in the Boston Seaport. We've talked to a couple of Boston startups, you know, here at the show. And, you know, great ecosystem if you go there. Thank you for bringing your show here. >> Absolutely, happy to be here. >> All right, so, last time we caught up was year ago at the show. And I think it was, what, 213 working days or something? I think Molly said >> Something like that Something like that yeah. >> The good thing is in our industry, nothings changing, we can talk about the same stuff as last year. >> Leisurely pace >> No concern, let's just sit back and you know, talk about our favorite pop culture references. Chip what's hot on your plate? And what are you hearing from the users in the community? >> Sure. So this year the theme Our events team came up with a very fun pun, which is Running at Scale. It means two things. One, the Boston Marathon was on Monday, but two it really does represent the stories that we're getting from our users, the customers, and the distributions, those that use the open source directly. So not only are we seeing a broadening of adoption across new organizations, but they're getting really deep into using it. We filled a survey, user survey, just did our second run of it. In fact we didn't have this data back in Santa Clara last year. So it's been less than a year since the 2017 one. And what we found was that there was a 21 point swing in those companies that were using Cloud Foundry with more than 50 developers, alright. So 50 developers and higher When you really talk to the interesting, large scale Fortune 500 companies, they're talking thousands of developers, that are working on the platform, being productive, and that truly is kind of what this event is about for us. >> I grew up around the infrastructure stuff, and scale means a lot of things to a lot of people, but had a great discussion with Dr. Nick, just before talking about how if you were to build your kind of utopian environment You look at some of the hyper-scale companies, the Facebooks and Googles of the world, and thing is they're such a scale that if they don't have good automation, and don't have you know really the distributive architectures that we're all talking about and things like that, there's no way that they could run their businesses. >> Yeah and the reality is a lot of the businesses that aren't Google, aren't Facebook, they have to be able to think about that level of scale. To me it really boils down to three basic principles, and to me this is the best definition of what Cloud native means. Whether you're talking about a platform, whether you're talking about how you design your applications, it's simple patterns, highly automated, which can be scaled with ease, right? And through that you can do really amazing things with software, but it has to be easily scaled, it has be easily managed, and you do that through the simplicity of the patterns that you apply. >> Yeah, and being simple is difficult. >> Yes >> How much we have arguments in the industry it's like well, let's throw an abstraction layer in there, do an overlay or underlay, but you know really building kind of distributed systems, is a little bit different. >> It is a little bit different. So one of the things that the Cloud Foundry ecosystem has, is a rich history of iterating towards a better and better developer experience. At its heart, the Cloud Foundry ecosystem of distribution, and tools, and the different products we have, they're all about helping the developer be a better developer in the context of their organization. So we've been iterating on that experience and just doing incremental constant improvement and change and we're very proud of that productivity, right? And that's really what drive these organizations to say look, this is a platform that is operated very easily with small teams. I think you've spoken with a couple companies, and if you ever ask them hot many operators do you have to handle thousands of engineers, tens of thousands of applications, they say, well, maybe ten. >> The T-Mobile example is >> Great example >> Ten to fifteen operators with 17000 developers so >> Chip: Yep, yep >> It's funny cause I remember we used to talk about you know in the enterprise how many servers can a single admin handle and then if you go to the hyper-scale ones it was three orders magnitude different. But in the hyper-scale ones they didn't really have server people, they had people that brought in servers, and people threw them in the wood chipper when they were done >> Chip: Absolutely >> And they didn't manage them. It was the old cattle versus pets analogy that we talked about in the other room, It's just totally different mindsets is how we think about this. I love, For me, it was in the enterprise you know, we harden the hardware, we think about this, and in the software world it's you know, No no, I built it in the application layer, because One of my favorite lines I use is you know, Hardware will eventually fail, and software will eventually work right? >> Absolutely. I think that's the difference between, So application centric thinking leads you to Necessarily, you have to have infrastructure to run it right? My favorite thing is this whole server-less term is absolutely ridiculous if anybody understands it, but there's a little bit behind it, which is, in fact I'd argue Cloud Foundry's fundamentally server-less because when you push code into it, you don't care what operating system's underneath it, right? All you care about is the fact that you've written some code in Java or in Nojass or in Ruby, you're handing it to a platform it deals with all of the details of building a container image, scaling it, managing it, pulling independencies, you don't care what underlying operating systems there, and then that ten person platform operations team, in the Cloud Foundry world, they have the benefit of upstream projects actually producing the operating system image that they can consume, within hours of major vulnerabilities being announced. >> I love actually, at this show you've got a containers and server-less track >> We do >> And I'm an infrastructure guy by background and when we went to virtualization we went little bit up the stack, I don't think about servers I'm trying to get closer to that application. Love you to comment on is Cloud Foundry helps gives some stability and control at that infrastructure level, but it still involved with infrastructure, from in my own data center, >> Chip: Yep >> or hosted data center or I know what could I'm on. When I start going up to like server-less, I'm a little bit higher up the stack, and that's why they can live together, >> Yeah, yeah >> And its closer tied to the application than it is to the infrastructure, so maybe you can tease that out for us a little. >> Yeah, so I think one of the main things that we've heard from the user community and this is actually coming from users of a number of the different distributions. They're saying, look there are roughly, today, roughly two different modes that we care about, cloud native application workloads. And this might expand to include functions and service but predominantly there's two. There's the custom software that we write, which the past experience is great for, and then there's the ISV delivered software, which today increasingly the medium of software delivery is becoming the container image, whether it's an OCI container, whether it's a Docker image, ISV ships software as container images, and you need a great place to land that, so those two abstractions, that paths, just hand the system your code, or the container service just hand it a container image, both of them work really well together, and part of what we're trying to do as a community, a technical community, is we're evolving those integrations so that we can work really well with the Kubernetes ecosystem. There are different options for how these things might be stacked, depending on the vendor that you're talking to, I think mostly that's immaterial to the customers, I think mostly the customers care about having those two experiences be unified from their developer or app owner prospective. >> When you come to this show, there's more than just Cloud Foundry. There's a lot of other projects >> Chip: For sure >> That are coming on to the space Gives us a little viewpoint as to how the foundation looks at this. What's the charter which it fits under Linux foundation There's so many different pieces, Some kind of bleed into what the CNCF is doing, and just try to help map out >> Chip: Yeah how some of these pieces and it's this great toolbox that we've talked about in open source. I love like the zip car guy got up and he's like, I use all the peripheral stuff, and none of the core stuff >> Right >> And that's okay >> Absolutely, that's the fun of open source. So there's a couple ways to look at this. So first, the open source communities collectively. There's a lot of innovations going on in this space, obviously What the Cloud Foundry ecosystem generally does, historically has done, and will continue to do, is that we are focused on the user needs, first and foremost. And what our technical project teams do is they look at what's available in the broader open source ecosystem. They adopt and integrate what makes sense, where we have to build something ourselves, simply because there isn't an equivalent, or it's necessary for technical reasons. We'll build that software. But our architecture has changed many times. In fact, since 2015, right. It hasn't been that many years, as you said, we move slow in this industry (Stu laughs) We've changed this architecture constantly. The upstream projects releasing at minimum of twice a month. That's a pretty high velocity. And it's a big coordinated release. So we're going to continue to evolve the architecture, to bring in new components, this is where CNCF relates. We've integrated Envoy, which is a CNCF project. We're now bringing in Kubernetes, in a couple of different ways. We're working closely with Istio, which is not a CNCF project, yet. But it looks like it might head that way. Service mesh capabilities, We were an early adopter of the container networking interface. Another Linux foundation effort was the open container initiative, right. Seeded from some code from Docker, again one of the earliest platforms to adopt that, outside of Docker. So we really look at the entire spectrum of open source software as a rich market of componentry that can be brought together. And we bring it together so that all these great users that you're talking to, can go along this journey, and think of it almost as a rationalization of the innovative chaos that's occurring. So we rationalize that. Our job is to rationalize our distributions, use that rationalization, and then all of the users get to take advantage of new things that come up. But also we take what gets integrated very seriously, because it has to reach a point of maturity. T-Mobile again, running their whole business on Cloud Foundry. Comcast, running their whole business on Cloud Foundry. US Air Force, fundamentally running their air traffic control, right, how do they get fuel to the jets, on Cloud Foundry. So we take that seriously. And so it's this combination of, harvesting innovation from where we can harvest it, bring it all together, be very thoughtful about how we bring it together, and then the distributions get the advantage of saying, here's a stable core that's going to evolve and take us into the future. >> Chip I've loved the discussion with real customers, doing digital transformation. What that means for them. How they're moving their business forward. Want to give you the final word, for those that couldn't come to the show, I know a lot of the stuffs online, there's a lot of information out there, anything particular do you want to call out, or say hey this is cool, interesting, or exciting you that you'd want to point to. >> Yeah, I actually. There are a lot of things but the one thing that I'll point to is as a US citizen, I'm particularly proud of some of the work that's happening in the US Government. Through 18F, with cloud.gov as an example, but if I step back even further, Cloud Foundry is serving as a vehicle for collaboration across multiple nations right now. We're seeing Australia, we're seeing the United Kingdom, Netherlands, Canada, South Korea, all of these national governments, are trying to figure out how to change citizen engagement to follow the lead of the startups, which are the internet companies, at the same time that these large Fortune 500 companies, are also trying to digitally transform. Governments are trying to do the same thing. So we had a, we're almost done for the day here, but there was almost a full day track of governments talking about their use of the tech, talking about that same digital transformation journey. So to me that's actually really inspiring to see that happen >> Alright well Chip Childers. He was a dancing stick figure >> Chip: I was in the keynote this morning, but here with us on theCUBE. Thank you so much for joining once again, and thank you to the foundation for helping us bring this program to our audience. >> Chip: We're happy to have you here. >> I'm Stu Miniman, and this is theCUBE. Thanks for watching (bright popping music)

>> Announcer: From Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE covering Cloud Foundry Summit 2018 brought to you by the Cloud Foundry Foundation. >> I'm Stu Miniman and this is theCUBE's coverage of Cloud Foundry Summit 2018 here in Boston, Massachusetts, happy to welcome back to the program Abby Kearns who's the executive director and goddess of the Cloud Foundry Foundation. Abby. >> Yes. >> Thanks so much for being here, good morning, good evening. >> Good afternoon. >> You've been running, doing so many sessions here, so, we're really glad that we get to have you on to help us wrap up our coverage. >> My pleasure, what better way to wrap up another amazing day at Cloud Foundry Summit than hanging out with you, Stu? >> Thanks, Abby, it's a pleasure. Look, really, I've said it a few times, but I mean it. One of the reasons I wanted to come here is, I get to talk to a bunch of users and they have great stories, so, it's always cool to talk to the startup doing something neat and different, but another thing, too, when you talk to the US Air Force and they talk about how they're doing drastic change, talk to T-Mobile, you talk to some of these bigger, older companies, and gosh, that's a bad word in the industry, right? But making some big changes, so, take a breath and tell us what your experience has been at the show so far. >> Well, I mean, you hit on my favorite part of the whole show, is getting to spend time with the community, but also the end users. What's so unique about Cloud Foundry Summit is half the attendees are end users. And it's so great to see them all come here and really be willing to put it all out there and get up on stage and talk about what they've done, how they got there, or hear them all fight about who's the more agile hundred-year-old company, which has been a funny conversation today. Allstate was chiming in that they were the young one in the group at 85 years old, so it's... But honestly, we get really caught up in the tech but hearing how people are using it and what they're doing and how it's changing their company is really I think the interesting story. If I'm a journalist, that's what I want to cover, because that's the interesting stuff. >> We had a media dinner and we're not supposed to share the details of them, but I love this discussion. This stuff isn't easy. We actually have the customers sharing the rewards, the challenges, the problems, well, working at a big company, change is definitely not easy. Working with some of this tech, it's not the simplest thing out there. We're working, there's lots of projects, there's lots of different interfaces there, but, still getting measurable great value out of what they're doing. To use an old term, moving the needle on what they're doing, so, it's exciting to see that. You've been in so many sessions, give us some highlights from, say, if you've got a couple of examples or things that, any customer story that you'd want to share. >> I mean, today, I heard a lot about Boeing. Boeing and the journey that they're on has been amazing to hear them talk about how they're changing their company, and even, in fact, they ask, all right, we're going to talk about this at Summit, but I don't want to talk about the tech. I don't want to talk about how we're using CICD, I don't want to talk about any of that. I want to talk about the culture change and having user after user say, I'm actually, want to get onstage and talk, but I don't want to talk about the tech, and that, I think, really shows the excitement and enthusiasm around the transformation process and what that means for them, and for me, as someone watching this outside, you're like, oh my god, this is amazing, and this is such a powerful story to really reflect the role technology has played in enabling that, but also the hard work that has to come into that. >> We often say that the technology is the easy part, it's the people and process stuff that'll be hard. The Foundation and this ecosystem and all the users that are involved, there's a lot of technical challenges, though, that are people working through, so, I wonder, do they underplay some of the technology things that they have to, I mean, learning new technologies, learning new skills, some of that is cultural, but, there is kind of that full spectrum that they have to get engaged with. >> Yeah, well, I just think that Cloud Foundry makes it easy (laughing) from the technology standpoint, because it really pulls a lot of things in together, but, collectively and particularly in open source, the opportunity exists for us to all move forward together. One of my big things I'm pushing for this year is interoperability, and continuing to let the technology evolve and taking advantage of new and innovative technologies, either alongside the platform or inside the platform, but really that's going to be a big focus and it was so great to hear from a lot of these end users, but that's important to them, too. >> Yeah, interoperability, you know, there are some that would look at this and they'd say, oh, they know Cloud Foundry because that thing that came out of VMware and there's this company, Pivotal, filed an S-1, they're going to go public, but, maybe talk a little bit about the ecosystem. There are so many solutions out there which don't yet have the Cloud Foundry branding on it but leverage the technologies in there. >> Yeah, it was really great to announce our eight certified distributions for 2018. We've had two new ones join SUSE Cloud Application Platform and, the most surprising one is Cloud.gov is now a certified distribution. Cloud.gov has done so much to bring digital transformation to the government, and so for them, and AT and F in particular, being able to offer up a platform like Cloud Foundry and the digital transformation initiatives around that, to federal agencies, is such a powerful story. They are literally changing our government, and hearing more and more stories like that have been really exciting, so to see that they now have a certified distribution, so regardless of what industry you're in, or what geo you're in, you have access to a certified distribution, the ability to run it on any cloud, for example, AliCloud is now, it's Cloud Foundry CPI is now available for AliCloud. You can run it on any cloud in the world and that is really showcasing that Cloud Foundry is not only leading the industry in terms of driving this change in these companies and with the technology but the ecosystem around it is continuing to grow and build. >> Maybe share a little bit, the tracks got kind of redone and there's some interesting tracks to kind of highlight, some of those focus areas that you had at the show this year. >> Yeah, for the first time ever, we had a government track. We had so many government use cases. You mentioned the Air Force earlier, AT and F. We have governments around the world that are running Cloud Foundry, so we added a government track. We had also a containers and serverless track. We actually added, last year we added an enterprise track, which is essentially users getting up on stage and talking about what they do. We added a whole track because we had so many submissions for that, and so it's really, again, an interesting opportunity to talk about the core technology and the platform, what's happening around that, but also more importantly how it's being used, and really being able to capture that is important for us. >> All right, the other kind of metric, if you look at the growth, is, when you talk about the ecosystem, there's, I believe it's the Foundry, which is the online marketplace. Speak a little bit to how that's been growing. >> Right, so we launched the Foundry last year in October at our summit in Basel. We launched in initially with 600 services. In short, it's an online marketplace for end users to find services, capabilities, and support, so it lists certified distributions, training partners, as well as technologies that are available that they could run on or alongside the platform and since October, we had now announced this week that we actually have over 4900 services in there now, so it's continuing to grow, but also, one thing I hadn't mentioned is it is our most highly trafficked page in our website, so it's continuing to drive the most traffic because end users care about it, but it's also really an area where we can showcase the breadth of the Cloud Foundry ecosystem. >> Yeah, I talked a little bit with Chip about this, but, there's not just one project, there's so many things getting involved. Maybe give us a little bit of the philosophy from the Foundation. What's the most important thing and how do you keep growing without sprawling? (laughing) >> Well, I think Cloud Foundry has always had really strong opinions about where we go and one of the things that we work, collectively work together on, is keeping a core shared vision, so there is a common core where the innovation continues to grow and happen, but allowing space and room for everyone to be able to differentiate from either different commercial go-to-market, or extensibility or extensions. For example, if you look at just our distributions alone, we've got one that focuses on federal government, we've got Pivotal Cloud Foundry, but we've got also an SAP cloud platform and really it's focusing on changing not only SAP customers, but also the way SAP thinks about software, and so seeing these different variations of the same core technology, is also a big driver of the inspiration, it's like, so many different perspectives around the table that really can drive and push the technology to do new and innovative things. >> All right, Abby, want to give the the final word. People that haven't been to the show, there's so much online. Any special things you'd want to call out, or final thoughts? >> Well, one, if you haven't been to the show, you should definitely come. We have another one coming up in October 11th and 12th in Basel, Switzerland, so if you've never been to Basel, it's a great way to come experience Summit for the first time. All the videos from all the sessions and key notes will be made available on YouTube usually within about a week, so anything that you missed if you were here, you can catch up there, and we're going to just keep talking about what we're doing and continuing to promote it and we'd love for more people to join us on the process. >> All right, well, Abby Kearns, always a pleasure to catch up with you. Thanks to the Foundation again for helping us bring this coverage, all of our content, of course, is always out there. It will be on theCUBE.net. Talking to many of the people in the Cloud Foundry ecosystem at many shows throughout the year, so, thanks, Abby, and the whole Foundation. A great lineup of customers, partners, and thought leaders in this space. Thanks to Brian and Alex for helping us do this coverage and be sure to check out all of our coverage on theCUBE.net. I'm Stu Miniman, thanks for watching theCUBE.

>> Announcer: From Boston, Massachusetts, it's the Cube. Covering Cloud Foundry Summit 2018. Brought to you by The Cloud Foundry Foundation, >> Hi I'm Stu Miniman and this is the Cube's coverage of the Cloud Foundry Summit 2018 here in Boston, Massachusetts. Happy to welcome back one of our earliest and favorite guests of the Cube Chad Sakac Who's at Pivotal now and he handles PKS and Dell technologies. Chad, great to see you, thanks for joining us, welcome to the Boston area, you come through this area a lot but it's great to see you. >> It's good to see you too. This is, by the way, my first CF summit. So it's interesting, you and I have talked together at Dell Technologies World, Dell EMC World, and EMC World for years. >> Stu: VMWorld. >> And VMWorld. This is a different scene. >> Alright Chad, this is my third time doing this show. I was at the first one back in 2014, last year we did the Cube there; every year it's like 'oh wait, there's this cool new technology; containers, maybe, how's Pivotal going to deal with that? This year, wait, Kubernetes, cloud natives everywhere. Maybe give us your point of view, as to how this fits in. >> So I feel like I'm a kid in a candy store. My job inside Pivotal is to drive PKS. Pivotal Container Service, that's built on top of Kubernetes. And there's a lot of Kubernetes action occurring here. If I had to net it out, I'd say a couple things. Number one, we've moved past the early hype cycle, and actually went through several hype cycles that blew up, so Docker is going to take over the world, not correct. What turned out to be correct is Docker would become the container standard, right? >> It's Mobi now, right? >> Right. Then, we went in to the battles of different cluster container managers. It's Swarm, it's Mesos Marathon, it's Kubernetes and there were lots of others, and then you get through that early hype period and things settle down to the point where they're actually productive, and everyone now kind of agrees, that Kubernetes is the standard container cluster manager for broad sets of workloads, great. Now the debate is Cloud Foundry, the structured PaaS-World, right? The structured platform opinionated, versus the little more wild west and open eco system of Kubernetes, and then early stage Kubernetes projects, like Istio and others, right? I think this has two chapters now, in front of us. Number one, and this is my focus I think for the next few years, is how do we make Kubernetes simple enough, easy enough, and frankly, enterprise ready. Not that it's not ready today, but a lot of Kubernetes projects that our customers are all over the map, difficult to sustain. We want to bring a lot of the lessons learned over the years of Cloud Foundry to Kubernetes. And I'm happy to say, that just a couple days ago, we released PKS 1.O.2 and 1.1, which we haven't announced the date but we've always said that we're going to be in constant compatibility with GKE, and the core Kubernetes. Since GKE shortly will have Kubernetes 1.10 support you can expect a 1.1 of PKS. So mission number one is make Kubernetes a great platform, and I am determined and stubborn, and will make PKS the best enterprise platform for customers that are putting workloads on Kubernetes. That said, Kubernetes isn't steady still and neither is the ecosystem. And you can see that there's a lot of discussion over what is the intersection between Cloud Foundry and Kubernetes? I think that over time it's inevitable that these things come together more. But again, I think that's going to occur over years. Not in a heartbeat. >> And even, I've been at the Kubernetes show and have been at this show a few times, it's not a monolithic stack, we're building distributed, lots of different pieces. You go to the Cloud Foundry, I'm sorry, the show that's Kub-Con, there's so many different projects there, I mean Istio was all the buzz, talk about the service national, there's all these little pieces there. And at this show, we're talking about Zip Car came and talked about they love everything in this eco system. They don't use some of the core components, but they use all these other pieces. As you and I've talked many times, Chad, people go read, Chad writes a little bit about some of these things to give you all the details there, but this stuff's pretty complicated. There's some in the Kubernetes community that's like it's never going to get simple. Remember when we thought Cloud computing was simple? And if you've been to any Amazon show and you go through, it is more complicated to configure a compute instance at Amazon, than it is to buy a Dell server these days. Because there's more options out there. Look, customers need options, many of them want things to be packaged and serviced and buy it as a service, but some love to put those pieces together and it's a spectrum and I loved at this show, Google and Microsoft up on stage, talking, 'hey, open communities, collaborating together'. Maybe not merging everything, but working together, understanding where things fit and it's not one or the other, it's many customers will choose both. >> You and I are both nerds at heart, I hope you don't take offense to that. >> I've already been doing Star Wars quotes this week. >> I wear it with pride. I'm always fascinated by the technology itself, but one thing that's been really cool about my experience alongside, and now inside Pivotal, and you can see it here at the CF Summit, is that the Pivotal obsession, is about the customer and the outcome. We build a platform that is an essential part of that, but teaching the world how to build better software is a noble mission. And the thing that's the most exciting for me is actually when the customers talk. So if you went to any of the customer discussions, did you see any of them, did you see the T-Mobile one? >> I saw T-Mobile up on the key note, I actually did an interview with T-Mobile. Had an interview with US Air Force. >> The Air Force One is amazing. >> Awesome. >> It's fascinating, from a technological standpoint, to say how do you use these tools? But it's the story of what you do with it, that actually matters so much more. I'll leave the, no, I won't leave the customer name out of it. So in talking with the T-Mobile crew, they love the Pivotal application service. So they are using it, it's an essential part of how T-Mobile works. They talked about it on stage, that's why I don't mind talking about it. And if you ask them, it's not an or. They also have massive projects, massive application workloads, that don't fit in PaaS, but are Docker images, they're currently doing some strange stuff with Swarm, and blah blah. And they're like 'Man, if you guys can basically deliver a great platform that we can consume instead of trying to construct and maintain, we trust you, you iterate with us, you work with us, we'll be able to focus more on the outcome. The thing that I'm actually going to be the most curious to hear feedback from customers over the next couple of years, is how do they navigate what workloads are best put into Kubernetes, how does Kubernetes sets of ecosystems start to not calcify, but firm up, right? It's going to be loose. But it will start to align more over time. >> Yeah our research team actually calls it, we need to get to a place where it's plastic. It should be not just scalable up and down but side to side a little bit more too. Once you have it, you can be able to go. >> Figuring out over time, and helping, with customers, figure out 'Hey, this is a Kafka or Crunchy data.' Post grass instance, or it's an ISV stack, or it's an application they've home grown, but they don't want it fully compartmentalized and put on paths, and they decide that they want to put it on Kubernetes, awesome. What is the value and the return of doing further work on that app to really make it Cloud Native, pull out all config, turn it into sets of small micro services, and then it's better fit for the PaaS part of PCF. Figuring out that formula over the next few years is going to be really cool. >> You mentioned culture. And that's been something you and I, Chad, lived through. It was the server vs the storage vs the network and the virtualization admin, and then the cloud admin. I talked to the US Air Force guy, and he was like, 'We actually have the people take off their uniforms, because rank would have a certain meaning inside there.' But you've got the Devs, you've got OPS, you've got still the infrastructure pieces on tub, what are you seeing from the customers you're talking to; what are some of the big challenges that are slowing people back from reaching this Utopia of fast, fast, fast, agile, inter-operable, wonderful times? >> How do I answer that one? That's a loaded question, brother. The biggest impediment is human nature. It's these damn humans, if we could just get all the humans out. >> Well everybody's mine, mine, mine. >> We'll go to low code, no code, eliminate all the humans, it'll be dreamy. >> I did one of those interviews today, too. Absolutely, you don't need all programmers, the business people can do it. >> The human tendency for control, and the need for control, I think it's probably deep seated in our, we're living in a world where we know intellectually that we don't have control over everything, but we hate that. Because we want to create control in our lives, that basically is the thing that sets up boundaries between people, and they get really hung up on their function. That's not new, the word's changed, like you said. Used to be server people vs storage people. Then it was virtualization teams vs the silo teams. And now it's the intersection of the DEV team and the DevOps team, the operations team. How do they intersect? The places where they're the most successful, is that they don't get hung up on that and the people blend the roles. Now the trick is, how do you do that in a big company? I wrote a blog, I'm not trying to advertise, virtualgeek.io I wrote a blog on this which was a synthesis of all the customer dialogues I've been having over the last few years. And the pattern I've seen that is most successful, is actually to recognize that there are stacks, and the stacks, I don't mean this particular technology choice, but the way that the whole stack driven by the business and the application and then the abstraction it sits on, and then you have to build your actual operations team underneath that. That creates a whole operational model which in itself is a stack, and just so it doesn't sound like I'm describing something that's nonsensical, a stack can be in big enterprises, there's a main frame based app, that's running on a main frame, that's being supported by a main frame operations team, and then right beside it there's another stack, which is all X86 workloads that are static. So they don't need an IAS they just need to run on a kernel mode VM abstraction. And then under that you've got the team that supports. Then you've got the workload that can be containerized, and don't need a full blown PaaS. And then you've got another one, which is a full blown application service model. Each one of those stacks ends up with different people, processes and tools, because they're mapped to the cultural operational model of that stack. And the thing that I'm trying to guide customers when I'm talking to them is, don't reject that; that's actually reality. Yes you should move as much as you can to the highest order abstraction you can. That's goodness and it pays dividends all the way down the stack. But don't go and say, that this workload, by definition has to go there. Or because you operate this way in this stack and this group operates this way, that by definition you're stupid and they're smart. The other rule is that- >> Chad, the answer to everything is server-less. >> By the way, I should have said that's another abstraction even to the right of the application service model. So the thing I've found, is a key kind of pattern of good, is that between the stacks, people and process are not allowed to transverse them, because the process is linked to how you operate. The only thing that goes between them, because in the end, for any customer, the stuff that touches all of those, is to become religious about one thing, which is that API's and data, and how those transit, those different stacks, that you have to be very clear on. Do you know what I mean? On the blog I drew a picture, but it was terrible. It was a terrible drawing. >> I've done whiteboards with you, Chad, I understand. Great, so. Sound's like you've got your hands full. Lots of us read the S1, so Pivotal's marching towards an IPO. You've only been there a very short time, you've know Pivotal since the beginning and all the pieces since Greenplum's part of the MC, Cloud Foundry part of VMware. Anything that you've learned since you've been inside Pivotal now that there's misconceptions? One of the things I always find is, we always learn about something the first time and then don't think it changes. >> It's funny actually, that's an insightful question. Having joined the team, it's weird because to many of them, I'm new, I'm a new Pivot. But to many of them they know that I've always been there. And I was reminding some of the originals, the crazy tortured path that we've taken to get to today. The original effort was hey, people are doing new things data's at the core of it. And that was the trigger for the Greenplum acquisition. And several of the people who are the senior leaders of Pivotal now came in through that. And then Paul Maritz was the CEO of VMware at the time, hey, I'm seeing people build new apps in new ways, by the way there's this crazy team inside VMware working on this thing called Cloud Foundry. And they were like a red headed stepchild. That's not PC, but like a black sheep? Or I don't know what metaphor you want to use, but basically they were working on something that had nothing to do with kernel mode virtualization at its core. >> Yeah it was a Cloud native peg in a VM square. >> And at the time, VMware isn't what they are now too. And then people forget this but I wrote a blog about it, so it's on the internet permanently. There was a Greenplum project, which was a great idea, that says people want to collaborate with data sets, and data scientists want to work together and it's really hard. Let's build a thing, which is like a social media portal, for Greenplum which was called Chorus. And the Chorus project was completely sideways. And they were like we don't know how we're going to get this thing on track on time, and they asked around the Valley, and people said hey, you should go talk to these guys, Pivotal Labs, up in San Francisco. What they do is they help people when they're stuck. They went, and I remember when Bill Cook and Scott Yara came back to Hoppington and said 'This was awesome, they've changed the way we think about how we build software, we think we should buy them.' And that got added, I remember when Paul Maritz said 'Spring is available.' it's like the most widely used modern JAVA framework, and that was also stuff in Spring Rif. All of these weird bits, in essence became the essence of Pivotal. You know what I've learned through that? Is these journeys are not in a straight line. Everyone's. >> Like our careers, Chad. >> Like our careers man. That's the first part, the second thing is, and this is going to be a challenge for Pivotal, honest, if we're very transparent as always, is Pivotal's brand is now so linked with Pivotal Cloud Foundry. And that's a good thing, like those customers raving about the business outcomes that they are getting. But inside Pivotal, the strategic change, the strategic pivot ha ha ha, to do a full embrace of Kubernetes versus the traditional opinionated versus plastic debates, I wouldn't say that we have 100% of the company fully embracing it yet, because companies are themselves, organic. But across the vast majority of the company it is something understood that it is an imperative for us. If we want to help the customers and the world build better software, we've got to do it for stuff that fits into PaaS, and stuff that doesn't. And so I've learned over the last few weeks about how many people share that passion that I have, and I think we can make something awesome with PKS. >> Alright, well with that Chad, we'll have to leave it there for now, looking forward to seeing you at more events. Congrats on the new role, I'm sure if people haven't already, Chad does have a new site for his blog, virtualgeek.io instead of the previous one. Chad, always a pleasure. Got the Cube here at Cloud Foundry Summit, I'm Stu Miniman, thanks for watching the Cube. (upbeat tempo)

(funky music) >> From our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley, Palo Alto, California. This is a CUBEConversation. >> Everyone, welcome to this CUBEConversation here in Palo Alto, California. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. Here in theCUBE Studios here with Abby Kearns, Executive Director, Cloud Foundry Foundation, CUBE alumni. Great to see you again. I think this is your eighth time on theCUBE chatting. Always great to get the update. Thanks for spending the time. >> My pleasure, and it's a joy to drive down to your actual studios. >> (laughs) This is where all happens Wednesdays and Thursdays when we're not on the road doing CUBE events. I think we'll have over 120 events this year. We'll certainly see you at a bulk of them. Cloud Foundry, give us the update. Yeah, we took 'em joking before we came on camera. Boy this cloud thing is kind of working out. I mean, I think IBM CEO calls it chapter two. I'm like, we're still in chapter one, two, three? Give us the update Cloud Foundry, obviously open-source. Things are rocking. Give us the update. >> I do feel like we're moving into chapter two. Chapter one was a really long chapter. (laughs) It spanned about 10 years. But I do think we're starting to see actual growth and actual usage. And I think a lot of people are like, no, there's actually been usage for a while. Me, no no no not on a real scale. And we haven't seen any of the workloads for organizations running at massive scale. At the scale that we know that they can run at. But we're starting to see interesting scale. Like 40, 50 thousand applications, you know. Billions of transactions now passing through. A lot of cloud native technology. So we're starting to see real interesting volume. And so that's going to actually dictate how the next five years unfold because scale is going to dictate how the technologies unfold, how they're used. And they're going to feed into this virtuous cycle of how the technologies unfold, and how they're going to be used, which feedback into how enterprises are using them, and you know, and the cycle continues. >> Give us the update on the foundation. What's going on with the foundation, status, momentum, clouds out there. Obviously open-source continues to drive however we saw a lot of acquisitions and fundings around people who are using open-source to build a business around that. >> I love that. >> Your favorite conversation. But, I mean you know the technical challenges with open-source allow for technical challenges but also the people side is they're learning. What's the update with the foundation? >> Well open-source is really tricky, and I think there is a lot of people that are really enthusiastic as it is a because model. I mean last year 2018 was a pretty substantial year for open-source. The year ended with Red Hat's acquisition by IBM. One of their biggest acquisitions, $34 billion. But we saw in December alone, we also saw Heptio get picked up by VMware which is a services company which is really based on Kubernetes on an open-source technology. But we also saw HashiCorp get another round of funding. And then earlier in the year, Pivotal IPO'd. And so if you look at 2018 at a bigger level, you saw a lot of momentum around open-source and how it's actually being commercialized. Now you and I were talking a little bit prior and I'm a big believer that open-source has the potential and is going to change fundamentally how technology is used and consumed. But at the end of the day for the commercial aspects of it you still have to have a business around that. And I think there's always going to be that fine line. And that line is actually always be going to be moving because how you provide value in, around, and on top of open-source, has to evolve with both the market and your customer needs. >> Yeah and where you are on that wave, whatever wave that is, is it an early wave or is it more mature so the metrization certainly matters? >> Sure. >> You could be early on setting the table or if it's growing when there's some complexity. So it kind of depends, it's always that depends is it the cloud air or is it the Red Hat? There's different approaches and people kind of get confused on that and your answer to that is just pick one that works for, that's a good business model. Don't get hung up on kind of the playbook if you will, is that kind of what you're saying? >> Well I think we're seeing this play out this week with AWS's Elastic announcement, right? And there's been a lot of conversation around how do we think about open-source. Who has access to it? Who has the right to commercialize it? What does commercialization look like? And I think, I've always cautioned people that are proceeding down the path to open-source is really be thoughtful about why you're doing open-source. Like what is your, what are you hoping to achieve? There's a lot of potential that comes with open sourcing your technology. You gain ecosystem, community, momentum. There's a lot of positives that come with that but there's also a lot of work that comes with that too. Managing your community. Managing a much more varied share of stakeholders and people that are going to have thoughts and opinions around how that technology unfolds. And then of course it's because it's open-sources there's more opportunity for people to use that and build their own ideas and their own solutions on top of that. And potentially their own commercial products. And so really figuring out that fine line and what works best for your business. What works best for the technology. And then what your hopes are at the end of the day with that. >> And what are some of the momentums or points for the Foundation, with Cloud Foundry, obviously seeing Pivotal went public, you mentioned that VMWare, I talk to Michael Dell all the time, the numbers are great coming from that operation. Pat Kelson near the Amazon deal think that clear and where VMWare was. But still you have a lot more cloud, multi-cloud conversations happening than ever before. >> Well, for sure I mean at Cloud Foundry, we've actually been talking about multicloud since 2016. We saw that trend coming based on user behavior. And now you've seen everyone is multicloud, even the public clouds are multicloud. >> I think you had the first study out on that, too on multicloud. We did. We were we were firm believers in multicloud. Last year we've actually moved more broadly to multi-platform. Because at the end of the day there isn't one technology that solves all of these problems. Multicloud is you know is pervasive and at the end of the day multicloud means a lot of different things to a lot of people. But for many enterprises what it gives is optionality. You don't want to be locked into a single provider. You don't want to be locked into a single cloud or single solution because you know if I'm an enterprise, I don't know where I'm going to be in five years. Do I want to make a five year or a 10 year or a 20 year commitment to a single infrastructure provider when I don't know what my needs are going to be. So having that optionality and also being able to use the best of what clouds can provide, the best services, the best outcomes. And so for me, I want to have that optionality. So I'm going to look at technologies that give me that portability and then I'm going to use that to allow me to choose the best cloud that I need for right now for my business and maybe again a different one in the future. >> I want to get your thoughts on this. I just doubled down on this conversation because I think there's two things going on that I'm saying we'll get your reaction to. One is I've heard things like pick the right cloud for the right workload and I heard analogies. Hey, if you got an airplane you need to have two engines. You have one engine if it works for that plane, but your whole fleet of planes could be other clouds. So, pick the right cloud for the right workload. Meaning workload is defined spec. >> Yeah. >> I've also heard that the people side of the equation, where people are behaving like they are comfortable with API's tooling is potentially a lock-in, kind of by default. Not a technical lock-in, but people are comfortable with the API's and the tooling. >> Yeah. >> And the workloads need a certain cloud. Then maybe that cloud would be it. That's not saying pick that cloud for the entire company. Right, so certainly that the trend seems to be coming from a lot of people in the news saying hey, this whole sole-cloud, multi-cloud thing argument really isn't about one cloud vs. multiple clouds. It's workload cloud for the use case in the tooling, if it fits and the people are there to do it. Then you can still have other clouds and that's in the multi-cloud architecture. So is that real? What's your thoughts on that? >> Let's dissect that 'cause I think that's actually solving for two different outcomes. Like one multi-cloud for optionality's purpose and workload specific. I think it's a great one. There's a lot of services that are native to certain clouds that maybe you really would like to get greater access to. And so I think you're going to choose the best. You know that's going to drive your workload. Now also factoring in that you know you're going to have a much more mediated access to cloud based on what people are comfortable with. I do think it's at some point as an organization you want to have a better control over that. You know historically over the last decade what we've seen. Shadow IT really dictates your Cloud spend right. You know everyone's got a credit card. I got I've got access to AWS. >> And they got most of that business. Amazon did. >> Yes and that served them quite well. If I am an organization that's trying to digitally transform, I'm also trying to get a better handle on what we're spending, how we're spending it and frankly, now if I have compliance requirements, where's my data? These are going to be important questions for you when you're starting to run production workloads at scale on multiple clouds and so, I predict we're going to see a lot more tension there in internal organizations. Like, hey I'd love for you to use cloud, you know? Where this no longer needs to be a shadow thing, but let's figure out a way to do it that's strategically and intentional versus just random pockets. Choosing to do cloud because of the workflow that they like. >> Well you bring up a good point. The cost thing was never a problem, but then you have sprawl and you realize there's a cost to Optimizer component which means you might be overpaying because as you think about the system aspects, you got networking and you got Cloud management factors. So you start as you get into that Shadow IT expansion. You got to realize, wait a minute, I'm still spending a lot of cash here. >> This adds up really really quickly. I mean, I think the information piece a couple weeks ago where they talked about the Pinterest bill, this stuff, it starts adding up. And for organizations, this is like not just thousands of dollars. It's now hundreds of thousands of dollars. If not you know, tens of millions of dollars. And so, if I'm trying to figure out ways to optimize my business and my scale, I'm going to look at that because that is not an insignificant amount of money. And so if I'm in it, that's money that could be better invested in more developers, better outcomes, a better alignment with my business, then that's where I want to spend my time and money, and so, I'm going to spend more time being really thoughtful about what clouds we're using, what infrastructure we're using, and the tools we're using to allow us to have that optionality. >> So you would agree with the statement if I said, generally, multi-cloud is here, it already exists. >> Yes. >> And that multi-cloud architecture thinking is really the conversation that needs to be had. Not so much cloud selection, per say. It's not a mutually exclusive situation. Meaning, I'm not all in on Amazon. I'm going to have clouds plural? >> Well, yeah you are. Like we have already seen as of early last year over half of our users. Which right now over half the Fortune 500 are multi-cloud already, and that number has gone up since last year I'm for sure. Some workloads were on-prem and some are in a public cloud. Be it GCP, AWS, Azure, or AliCloud. And so that is a statement of fact. And I have every executive that I've talked to with every enterprise has been like, yes, we're doing multi-cloud. >> Yeah, they're going to have some kind of on-prem anyway, So we know that's there. That's not going to go away. >> No, PRIM is not going to go away. >> Then an IOT edge, and an Enterprise Edge, SDWAN comes back into vogue as people start using SAS across network connections. >> Yeah. >> I mean, SDWAN is essentially the internet basically. >> I feel like the older I get the more I'm like, wow, didn't I have this conversation like, 20 years ago? (laughs) >> I was talking about something earlier when I came in. The old becomes the new again. It's what's happening, right? Distributor computing now goes to cloud, you got the Enterprise. What are the big players doing? Google Next is coming up next month, big event. >> It is the week after Cloud Foundry Summit. >> They got Amit Zavery, big news over there they poached from Oracle. So Thomas Kurian brought in his Oracle, who is Cube alumni as well. Really smart guy. Diane is not there. What do you expect from Google Next for the week? What are we going to see there? What's the sentiment? What's the vibe? What do you see happening? >> Well, I think it's going to be all about the Enterprise right. That's why Thomas was brought in. And then I think they really give Google that Enterprise focus and say, how do we end up? As it's not just about I'm going to sell to enterprises. That's not, you know, when you're selling to an enterprise there is a whole different approach and you have to write how to the teams, the sales teams. You have to write how to the ecosystem, the services, the enablement capabilities, the support, the training, the product strategy? All of that takes a very different slant when you're thinking about an enterprise. And so I'm sure, that's going to be front-and-center for everything that they talk about. >> And certainly he's very public about, you know, the position Oracle Cloud, he knows the Enterprise Oracle was the master of enterprise gamesmanship for sure. >> Yes, for sure. You don't get a whole lot more enterprising than Oracle. >> What's going on in the CNCF any news there? What's happening on the landscape? What's the Abby take on the landscape of cloud? >> Well, speaking as someone that does not run CNCF. >> Feel free to elaborate. >> Cloud Native Computing Foundation, for those of you that aren't aren't, you know, aren't familiar is a sister open-source organization that is a clearing house or collective of cloud made of technologies. The anchor project is the very well-known Kubernetes, but it also spans a variety of technologies from everything from LINKerD to SEDA to Envoy, so it's just a variety of cloud-native technologies. And you know they're continuing to grow because obviously cloud-native is becoming you know it's coming into its own time right now. Because we're starting to really think about how to do better with workloads. Particularly workloads that I can run across a cloud. I mean and that seems pretty pedantic but we've been talking about Cloud since 2007. And we were talking about what cloud brings. What did cloud bring, it brings resiliency. You can auto-scale. You can burst into the cloud, remember bursting? Now all the things we talked about in 2007 to 2008 but weren't really reality because the applications that were written weren't necessarily written to do that. >> And that's exactly the point. >> So now we're actually seeing a lot more of these applications written we call them microservices, 12 Factor apps, serverless apps. What have you but it's applications written to run and scale across the cloud. And that is a really defining point because now these technologies are actually relevant because we're starting to see more of these created and run and now run at scale. >> Yeah, I think that's the point. I think you nailed it. The applications are driving everything And I think that's the chapter two narrative. In my opinion, chapter one was, let's get infrastructures code going. And chapter two is apps dictating policy and then you're going to see microservices start to emerge. Kind of new different vibe in terms of like what it means for scale as less of about, hey, I'm doing cloud, I got some stuff in the public cloud. Here the conversation is around apps, the workloads and that's where the business value is. It's not like people who is trying to do transformation. They're not saying hey I stood up a Kubernetes Cluster. They're saying I got to deploy my banking app or I got to do, I got to drive this workload. >> And I have to iterate now. I can't do a banking app and then update it in a year. That's not acceptable anymore. You are constantly having to update. You're constantly having to iterate, and that is not something you can do with a large application. I mean the whole reason we talk a lot about monolithic vs 12 factor or cloud in a box is because it isn't that my monolithics are inherently bad, it's just they're big and they're complex. Which means in order to make any updates it takes time. That's where the year comes in, the 18-months come in. And I think that is no longer acceptable you know. I remember the time and I'm going to date myself here, but I remember the time when you know banks would or any e-commerce site would be down. They'd have what they call the orange page. But the orange page would come up, site down tonight 'cause we're doing maintenance for the weekend, right? >> Under construction. >> Under construction. Okay, well I'll just come back on Monday. That's fine. And now, you're like, if it's down for 5 minutes you're like what is actually happening right now. Why is this not here. >> Yeah like when Facebook went down the other day. I was like, what the hell? Facebook sucks. >> You know, the internet blows up if Instagram is down. Oh my God, my life is over and I think our our expectation now is not only constant availability. So you know always available. But also our expectation is real-time access to data transparency and a visibility into what's actually happening at all times. That I've said something that a lot of organizations are really having to figure out. How to develop the applications to expose that. And that takes time and that takes change. And there's a ton of culture change. it has to happen and that is the more important thing if I'm a business I care more about how do I make that a reality and I should care a lot less about the technologies that you use. >> It's interesting you mention about the monolith versus the decomposed application of being agile. Because if you don't have the culture and the people to do it it's still a monolithic effort in the sense of the holistic thinking and the architectural, it's a systems architecture. You have to look at it like a system and that's not easy either. Once get that done the benefits are multifold in terms of like what you can do. But its it's that systems thinking setup is becoming more of an architectural concept that's super important. >> For sure if I have a microservice app, but it takes a 150 people to get that through change management and get it into production well that will still take me a year. Does it matter if there's maybe 12 lines of code in that application? It doesn't matter and so, you know I spend a lot of time. Even though I run Cloud Foundry, I spend a lot of time talking about culture change. All the writing I do is really around cultural change and what does that look like. Because at the end of the day if you're not willing to make those changes, you're not willing to structure your teams and allow for that collaboration and if you're doing iterative work, feedback loops from your customers. If you're not willing to put those pieces into place there is no technology that's going to make you better. >> I totally agree, so let me ask you a question on that point, great point, by the way. Most followed your you're writing your blog posts in the links, but I think that's the question. When do you know when it's not working? So I've seen companies that are rearranging the deckchairs, if you will, to use an analogy with all the culture rah, rah! And then nothing ever happens right? So they've gone into that paralysis mode. When do you look at a culture? When does the executive, what should they be thinking about because people kind of aspire to do this execution that you said is critical? When do you know it's not working or what should they be doing? What's the best practice? How does someone say hey you know what I really want is to be more holistic in my architecture. I don't want to spend two years on that the architecture and then find out it's now just starting. I want to get an architecture in place. I want to hit the ground running. >> I mean it's twofold, one, start small. I mean you're not going to change you know if you're an 85 year old company with 200,000 people you're not going to change that overnight and you should expect that's going to be an 8 to 10 year process now what that's also going to mean is you're going to have to have a really clear vision and you're going to have to be really committed like this is going to be a hard road but conversely when someone says what does success look like, when you're looking at a variety of companies how do you know which ones which ones you think are going to be the most successful at the end of the day because no one's ever actually done any of this before there's no one that's ever gone through this digital transformation and it should have come out on the other side no one. There isn't and so I think what does success look and I said well for me, what I look for are companies that are investing and re-skilling their workforce. That's what I'm looking for. I get real excited when companies talk about their internal boot camps or their programs to rescale or upscale their teams because it's not like you're going to lay off 20,000 people and hire 20,000 cloud native developers, they don't exist and they're certainly not going to exists for thousands of companies to go and do that so you know how are you investing in re-skilling because-- >> It's easy to grow your own internally from pre-existing positions. >> Well sure, they know your business. >> Rather than go to a job board that has no one available. >> And you know at the end of the day that needs to be your new business model what is digital transformation actually it's just a different way of working and there isn't, there is no destination to the digital trend. This isn't a journey that has an end and so you need to really think about how are you going to invest differently in your people so that they can continuously learn continuously learning needs to be part of your model and your mantra and that needs to be in everything you do from hiring to HR to MBO's to you know how do you how do you structure your teams like how do you make sure that people can constantly learn and evolve because if that's not happening it doesn't you know everything else is going to fall by the wayside >> Is the technology gap easy to fill? Lot of tech out there. Talent gap hard to fill. >> For sure. >> That's the real challenge. >> If you have all the best tech in the world but you don't have the right people or the right structure are you going to be successful, probably not. >> Yeah, that's a challenge. Alright, so final question for you where are you going to be, what's your schedule look like, where can people find you, what events going to be at? You guys have an event coming up? >> April 2nd through 4th in Philly. We're going to have a summit you want to see some people that are actually running cloud at scale that's the place to go >> April 5th? >> 2nd through 4th. First week of April Philly, fingers crossed good weather lots of cloud talk and it's a great way. >> City of Brotherly Love >> Yes, we're bringing it. >> Philadelphia. The Patriots couldn't make it to the playoffs last year but love the Philly fans down there Paul Martino and friends down there. Abby thanks for coming on. Appreciate it-good to see you. Thanks for the update. We'll see you around the events, I won't be able to make your event I'll be taking the week off skiing. >> Well one of us has to. >> First vacation of the year, two years. Thanks for coming in. >> You should do that. >> Abby Kearns here inside theCUBE for CUBEConversation I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching (funky music)

>> Narrator: Live from Chicago Illinois, it's theCUBE! Covering VeammOn 2018. Brought to you by Veamm. >> Welcome back to VeammOn 2018 everybody, and you're watching theCUBE. The leader in live tech coverage. We go out to the events, we extract the signal from the noise. This is day one of our coverage of VeammOn, the second year theCUBE has been here. I'm Dave Vellante with my co-host Stu Miniman. Zeb Ahmed is here, he's the Senior Offering Manager for VMWare, with the IBM Cloud, at IBM of course. Thanks for coming on theCUBE, good to see you Zeb. >> Thank you for having me, very excited to be here. >> Yeah so IBM, Cloud, big part of our business. Obviously VMWare, you've been there for a long time. Partnerships with Veamm. Lay it all out for us, what's going on at IBM, IBM Cloud. >> Yeah so we started the VMWare partnership a couple years ago, and our goal was really to build a practice run VMWare which was automated, take it to the next level essentially, not just be a me too player, what everybody else was doing out there, but rather, make the transition from on premises to the Cloud much easier for those VMWare customers. So we've automated a lot of things on the VMWare platform, you can deploy the inverse stack, in a matter of minutes, instead of days and months. So it's a much easier transition, we also work with a lot of partners, such as Veamm, but customers was using on premises, and we've allowed them to have those capabilities in the Cloud as well, in a very automated fashion. >> Quickly if I remember, I think you guys were first doing something with VMWare in the Cloud, you're kind of a year ahead of most. I mean-- >> Stu: It was a few months ahead, they were the first big partner out there with the VMWare Cloud basically. We got, put in Cloud air and everything. >> But in terms of shipping, actually, you guys-- >> We were the first ones, yeah. So we were the first ones to market with Cloud foundation stack right? Yeah and then the other vendors followed as well, but yeah that's been doing great, right? And again, it's fully automated, matter of minutes you can deploy the whole stack, a lot of value add there. >> Yeah Zeb, maybe help set the picture for us a little bit. 'Cause we talk about this multi-cloud world, IBM owns a lot of applications, IBM partners with a lot, where does IBM see themselves playing in this multi-cloud, multi-app world? >> Great question, I think I, so I refer to it two T's. So the first one being the transition, and then the transformation. So the transition is really where the challenge has been for those customers, the barrier to entry, how do these customers actually make that move seamless to the Cloud, especially the space that IBM is in on the enterprise side, these applications are legacy, very very complicated design, a lot of dependencies, so that was a challenge that we tried to solve for. And I think we're at a state now where we've not only solved for that, we've also, I don't know if you guys have seen HCX that we had with VMWare recently, which was a great migration tool, and helps customer on board Cloud, and adapt to Cloud much much faster. And then also build that ecosystem partner network. So all those tools, that we were using on premises like Veamm, right? Making those available in the Cloud for those customers, and it has been great, and also in the transformation side, right? So not only just move them to the Cloud, but also help them leverage, and go up the stack. So micro-services, blockchain, Watson, containers, all those things are available to our customers. >> I think that's a key point that I wanted to highlight is, people often say, how does IBM compete with some of the big Cloud players? You're not just infrastructure as a service, you've got a giant SAS portfolio, you mentioned Watson so, talk about your strategy in that regard. >> Yeah I mean so, the enterprise customer, typical customer, whether it's financial industry or whether health care or transportation et cetera, nobody is just looking for a partner where they can just move the infrastructure too. They're looking for the next state, they're looking to transform the business, they're trying to utilize all those new capabilities that exist in the Cloud today. And IBM has sought for that exactly because not only just use, move your infrastructure and workloads, but now you can consume all those additional gallywads, in the Cloud like Watson, make it for a more intelligent solution in the end. >> Right, so that's a key differentiator. There's only a couple of companies that have that, well I guess you guys, Oracle, Microsoft obviously has the applications, and IBM talks a lot about the cognitive piece, am I correct you can only get Watson in the IBM Cloud, is that still the case, or are you now have it on prem? >> No no, Watson can be consumed using an API. So it's a PAS platform, and if somebody wanted to consume Watson for the on premises workloads and wanted to bring that intelligence for that on premises environment they can do that. >> Dave: Are you seeing more demand for that? >> Oh yes. >> Or is it primarily in the Cloud? >> We've got huge traction in the healthcare space especially, there's a lot of financial customers that are onboarding that as well. So Watson's doing great in that regard. >> Sort of privacy reasons and-- >> Zeb: That's right. >> Zeb one of the things we've been watching with Veamm for the last few years is how do they penetrate deeper into the enterprise. Of course IBM has a strong position in the enterprise, help connect for us how the Veamm and IBM partnerships go together. >> So I think this was a very easy answer for a lot of our customers, because Veamm has a lot of penetration on the on premises workloads, especially on the back-up and business continuity space. So when we looked at the partners and the products that existed in the space, we really looked at the market space, what the customers were consuming. Veamm had a huge market share, and like I said previously, we wanted to solve for those problems and we wanted to keep the tools at the same tool set that they were using today on the premises, so this was very seamless for us, and it is seamless for the customers, to move to IBM Cloud and leverage those same tools exactly. >> So talk about choice because, I can imagine you're getting a call from Ed Walsh, "Hey, how about using my data protection software instead of Veamm?". How do you manage that? >> Zeb: It is tough, right? It is obviously tough, IBM also has a huge portfolio of products, right? In the end the decision was or it really came down to, what is it the customers are looking for? When it came to the back-up space, especially on the VMWare platform, The answer was there, a lot of the VMWare customers use Veamm. In addition to that, Veamm also checks a lot of other boxes for us. So, not only does VMWare stack, but also, I don't know if it's been announced yet or not, but AIX is something of beta that they're launching, at this event, so that is huge for IBM. >> Dave: Really? >> Oh yes, they're also in the bare metal space, so a consolidated view of all your back-ups, all your bare metal, for AIX, for virtualized platform. >> So the power guys will be happy. >> For those that aren't as familiar anymore, I mean remember AIX back in the day, but this is second week in a row I'm talking about AIX. It was Nutanix last week, and it's Veamm today. How much AIX is there still out in the wild? >> There's quite a bit, I mean IBM, if you guys know the background, right? When software was acquired it was a bare metal shop. So with that a lot of the power stuff came as well. So we have a huge power practice in IBM. >> Right, and well it's still, I remember the Steve Mills charts, which showed the availability of AIX versus, the only more available platform was the mainframe, and then with AIX, and then, and you had all that other stuff that everybody else buys but, it's a volume market so it kind of makes sense though. People will pay up for that. And still, a huge install base, now growing, and Nutanix has a relationship with the power guys, so maybe that's where sort of factored in, right? But Linux, of course, is the hot space, right? I mean sure you see it's powering the web. >> Well I'm a VMWare guy, so (laughs). >> There's Linux sitting on top of some of that. >> That's right, of course, of course. >> You've got Linux of mainframe, right? Okay, alright so, talk a little bit more about what you're seeing from the VMWare customer base, how it's synergistic and not just sort of a one way trip into a hotel California. >> Yeah, so a typical VMWare customer that we're seeing who's on premises today are looking to IBM Cloud, or actually take a leap into the Cloud, especially on the enterprise base, these customers want to transform. I mean, there has been a lot of questions for them, especially the customer base IBM focused on, questions around security, compliance, business continuity and data protection and such. So these customers not only want to just make the leap into the Cloud, but they also want to solve for some of these challenges, and also go up to stack like I was mentioning. So, we're seeing a huge push for containers, for those customers that are moving to VMWare, they want to build up the stack, on the PAS layer, and also want to leverage Watson and services like that. >> Yeah, could you expand on that a little more, things like are you working with PKS, the solution with VMWare and Pivotal, and the Kubernetes stuff, or? >> Yes, Kubernetes, Dockers, we also give the customers ability to do their own stuff, go up the stack. I mean, in the end, you know, they can consume us from an IS standpoint and build their PAS on top, or we can, they can use our own, so Kubernetes, Dockers, et cetera. >> What's the story, Stu, with Cloud foundry these days? There was a big push early on, and I fell like I can, I'm not as close as you are, but there seems to be a, I don't want to say a pull back, but maybe less enthusiasm, what's the lay of the land? >> Sure, I mean IBM was one of the earliest bloomix, I believe, and with IBM Cloud, IBM has a few different offerings, I didn't see as big of a push from IBM at the Cloud foundry summit I was at last month, but IBM, like most of the Cloud providers are giving customers choice. >> Zeb: That's right. >> So I guess the question is what-- >> And heavy in Open Source, I mean I'm seeing IBM heavy push, I'm wondering server-less, if you've got any commentary there. We've been looking at like Open Whisk and some of the pieces there. >> Yeah Open Whisk is there, there's, server-less is a thing that a lot of these customers, back to your own original question, a lot of these customers are looking for those types of services, and they're all available in the catalog. >> It's still pretty early, that hasn't overtaken the discussions of the (mumbles) and the (mumbles) stuff in your world has it? >> It hasn't, but I think the enterprise customers who are looking to move to Cloud, they are thinking about those things. So these are some of the check boxes that need to be checked for them for the future growth, et cetera. >> So you've got VMWare's obviously visualization strategy, you've got containers coming, I remember when we had Pat Gelsinger on theCUBE several years ago, when containers were, docker was rocketing, and everybody was like oh docker's going to kill VMWare. And Pat's response was, "Look, we've got the best containers in the world. We're going to embrace containers". They're like, oh sure. But that's exactly what happened. What's IBM's point of view on it? >> Yeah, here's the thing, we want to give them the option to do whatever they want to do. We're seeing a lot of traction on the micro-services side, on the containerization, but I think it's going hand in hand, a lot of the customers are using VMWare platform still, yet they're also leveraging some of these other micro-services and containers, so I think Pat's right on. I think originally what was people were talking about getting rid of the IS layer of VMWare and just going containers completely. Our take is, give the customers all the functionality and the ability to do whatever they want to do, we are seeing it's more of a mix at the moment. >> And we had Edouard Bugnion on recently, found of, one of the founders of VMWare, and he was talking about the challenges in the data center at scale. And in particular when you introduce virtualization and you reduce some of the hardware resources, how do you deliver predictable, high-performance, at scale, and some of the challenges there. That's even on prem. Now introduce Cloud, and you've got distance and latency and other physics so, what's the discussion like with customers around how to architect the ideal Cloud, on prem, hybrid. >> It's a great question, because that is a question I get asked all the time, because in the enterprise base like I said, these customers in a lot of cases have a hybrid or multi-cloud strategy, so network becomes a key part of that discussion. For us, the answer is very simple. We've laid down the fiber of (mumbles) across all these data centers, so when you're talking about latency, and data transfer, and those types of speeds, or having a multi-cloud strategy across the globe, it's a very simple and easy conversation because not only do we make all that information available to our customers, far as what latency they expect from which data center to another one across the globe, but also it's all private, and it's all secure, and it makes for a very good multi-cloud story. >> I don't know if you saw Jenny Remmetti's talk at IBM Think, but she used the term, a lot of people tongue in cheek, but I kind of like it, "incumbent disruptors". I mean look if you're IBM and you've got the client base that IBM has, you better come up with a term like that because that's exactly what you're trying to help your customers do. So, my question is, where does the Cloud and your offering with VMWare fit into the incumbent disruptive scenario? >> Yeah, so VMWare like I said earlier, we didn't want to be a me too player with VMWare. Not only did we want to have a good story with VMWare because obviously VMWare is a huge market share when it comes to virtualization, but on top of that, we wanted to be more futuristic, and solve for those, some of those questions and concerns that the enterprise customer had. So, tight integration on the enterprise base, on the micro-services, containerization, Watson is a huge part of the VMWare platform, you can seamlessly integrate into Watson and really have intelligent decision making on the VMWare platform. So, we wanted to ensure that we were helping our enterprise customers move to Cloud, yet also solve for the future problems. >> So the incumbent piece, both VMWare and IBM, right, incumbent customers, the disruptor would be I guess Cloud, all the new Cloud services, certainly the machine intelligence cognitive, et cetera, components is the disruptive capability, now it's up to you to figure out, okay, how do you apply all that, presumably IBM and your partners can help. >> Yeah and here's the thing, you mentioned earlier, IBM is one of the only companies in the world that can have an end-to-end, not just infrastructure, but also services wrapped around it. So if you're a customer who's not only looking to move to the Cloud but also have services wrapped around, to go end-to-end, IBM is the company to do that for you. >> Dave: Well that's interesting. Okay, I got to ask him Stu. So we had, we were at Dell Technologies World a couple weeks ago, and we had Jeff Clark on, and we asked him, we said, "Look, companies like IBM, HPE, sort of, IBM selling off its X86 division, and HPE splitting, Dell did the opposite. The mega merger". And his comment was, "Well I don't see how you can do end-to-end without both ends". Now, his definition of end is obviously different to your end definition, and I have to ask you, what do you mean by end-to-end? Is the client sort of just a commodity, we can get that anywhere, it's not really an integration challenge? >> So when I'm saying end-to-end what I'm talking about is a enterprise customer looking to move to the Cloud, solve for the future problems, essentially re-invent themselves, transform their business, leverage the new applications, micro-services that are there, but also have services wrapped around it, right? Somebody who's there to help them end-to-end, whether it's just doing migrations for example, right, from on premises to the Cloud, but also help them onboard and guide them on what is there in the Cloud, or the micro-services, or our PAS layer, and how they can transform really. >> So that to me Stu is, Zeb's talking about not a hardware view, of end-to-end, but a, maybe a systems and a software view of end-to-end, in the Cloud services. Alright, Zeb, thank you very much for, do you have one more? You good? Thanks so much for coming on theCUBE. >> Guys, thank you very much, appreciate it. >> Appreciate it. Alright, keep it right there buddy, Stu and I will be back with our next guest. This is theCUBE, we're live from VeeamOn 2018, in Chi-town, we'll be right back. (electronic music)

>> Announcer: Live from Santa Clara in the heart of Silicon Valley, it's the Cube, covering Cloud Foundry Summit 2017. Brought to you by The Cloud Foundry Foundation, and Pivotal. >> Oh my Bosh! One of the fun t-shirts here at the Cloud Foundry Summit. I'm Stu Miniman joined by my co-host John Troyer. We've had a day of some really good interviews, really liked geeking out, digging into this hybrid, multi-cloud world, John. Something that feels to be coming into focus a little bit more. I had a bunch of questions coming in, and many of them, at least, I have some answers as to where they're going. What's your take on the Cloud Foundry Summit? >> Yeah, my first Cloud Foundry Summit I thought was super interesting. We got to talk to a couple users, which is always really interesting, and also some folks from the foundation. It was insightful, actually. I talked to a few vendors here, and they said, well how's the crowd? I said, not big, but the people who are here are big. Right? In terms of, there weren't 20,000 people here, there were 1,700, but the companies that are involved are serious about Cloud Foundry, they're all in, they're building apps and they're not building one or two apps, they're building thousands of apps on Cloud Foundry and moving their whole enterprise over. So, that was kind of super enlightening to me. >> Yeah, I mean, John, we know the story here. We've talked at a number of events about this. When you've got big financial companies, insurance companies, people in healthcare, if they don't become more agile, they will be Uberized. We have to have a different term, right? Uber's in the news for all the bad reasons now, so Netflix was the old term, but that digital disruption by start-ups. So, when you hear companies, oh, we're a 75-year-old company, we're a 100-year-old company, we're becoming a software company, and therefore, we're going to take our thousands of apps, and somewhere writing, we always have the new things we're writing, and then we'll move some along. So, that application really spectrum of the new stuff, and then pulling along the old one with a platform like Cloud Foundry, being that bridge to the future if you will. >> Right. Right. And, we aren't talking about a small team chatting on slack. We're talking about, in one organization, thousands of developers, coordinating on this platform. >> Yeah, absolutely. We to talked Express Scripts, I think they said they're hiring about a thousand engineers in a little more than a year. So, big companies, a lot of things to move when we're talking, Liberty Mutual is like, oh we want 75% of our IT staff to be writing code, and today they're less than 50%. So, if you're sitting in that other 50%, the writing is on the wall that you need to move in that direction, or maybe we're not the right organization for you. I'm curious, your take about that retraining of staff, we know we have a shortage of skill sets. How do they learn? How do they get, is it certifications? Is it training? What have you seen? >> Well they did just announce the Cloud Foundry certification program here today. So, I think that was an interesting component that's needed for support for this. But, really the Cloud Foundry supports all sorts of technologies and I think you see it in both the contributors here and in the technology. So, it's polyglot world, I see a lot of people, the crowd, used to, known assistments are indeed doing more programming, doing more automation, and so I think it's all of a course. I think, look it's clear, in five or 10 years the profile of people in IT is going to look a lot different. And, this is one of the leading edges of it. >> Yeah. Coming to the show and we talked about it on the intro that drumbeat of Kubernetes really gaining the hearts and minds of developers, I feel like it's been diffused a little bit. I don't know whether Kubo is the answer, but it is an answer. We've talked to some people in the ecosystem, that have other options that they're doing. As well as, of course, companies like Google, which Kubernetes came out of and Microsoft who's embracing Kubernetes, they like choice, they want people to use their platform. Keeping a more open approach for Cloud Foundry to work with other pieces of open source in the ecosystem. It's goodness? Time will tell whether this one solution makes sense. What's your take on that? >> Sure, I think Cloud Foundry has always been known as the opinionated platform. But, I think now the subtleties have come out that, yes there are certain opinions in the way things are glued together, but as James Waters pointed out, they've always had different kinds of abstractions of things running on or in the platform, in terms of whole apps or server list, we didn't really talk about today. But, so Kubernetes is sitting beside there for people who want more knobs, who already have an app, that expects that kind of scalability and management, makes sense for the Cloud Foundry. I think, they seem pretty open to embracing whatever works, and in some ways it's an analogy to what going on in the clouds like Azure and Google Cloud Platform, and that it's like, look bring us your work loads, we will run them. So, I think that's kind of an opening of at least a publicly stance of an opening. >> Yeah. I like this as Steve O'Grady said in the conversation we had with him, there's a lot of choices out there and therefore customers really, they want that. Of course there's the paradox situation. How do I keep up on all the latest and greatest? I mean, three years ago, the last time I came to the show, was like 08 Docker, totally going to disrupt this. Now it's Kubernetes, we only brought up functions as a service or as a server less, like once, and it did not seem to fit into where this plays today. But, there's options out there. Customers that are here, like what they're doing. It is moving them forward, it is enabling them to be that faster, faster, faster. More agile, meet the needs of the business and stay competitive. >> Yeah. Steve's term was different tools for different jobs or something like that right? >> We always said at Wikibon, a torse is for courses. >> Yeah. I mean a polyglot is one way that Coops' Clouds Foundry world used to talk about it. But, I think different tools is a great way. There is, we're in a technical time of great diversity. Which is awesome right? There's no monoculture here, which is super interesting, I think. >> Yeah absolutely, also the move from Cloud Foundry really started out as a predominantly, a non premises deployment and Public Cloud is seeping into it. We talked to a couple of customers that are starting to use Public Cloud, and most of them who weren't using it today were understanding where it fits. Sorting that piece out and look at solutions like Cloud Foundry as one of those pieces that are going to give them flexibility moving forward. >> Yeah. I mean I think that this is something that's going to have to develop over time. Right? It's one thing to say, I'm a layer on top of another cloud, but Amazon really wants you to use its databases, and Google Cloud really wants you to use it's services. And so, you can only stay completely independent for so long without taking advantage of those things, as you evolve these platforms. So, there is that tension there, that will play out, but it's played out over and over again at the many levels in tact. So, we'll see some standard stuff there. If Cloud Foundry has enough value, people will use it as their deployment platform on MultiCloud. Well let's talk about MultiCloud. What you think Stu? But sometimes MultiCloud is more of an ideal than a practicality for many organizations. >> Yeah. What about Pivitol? So if we look at Pivitol, number they're doing in Cloud Foundry, was, last year was about 275 million, so that number had been shared in one of the earnings calls. Seems like a very well position for the Fortune 1000. I'm always trying to figure out. What is the tam that they can go after? Who does it work for, and who doesn't it? At OpenStack we talked about, well great, the Telco NFV market looks great, but is that 20 or 50 companies. For something like Cloud Foundry, there's lots of big revenue that they can get by knocking down many of these Fortune 1,000's. But, it does seem to be that enterprise grade, therefore there's dollars attached to that. It is something that they, Pivitol, has done a solid job of converting that need, using open source into actual software revenues. Yes, their services and labs are a critical, critical, critical piece of what they do, but it is the subscription of software that they built. Many of their clients were on, I know , a three year subscription and lots of those renewals have started coming now. Expectation is that we could see an IPO by them by 2018. It's been reported I'm sure Michael Dell would love to have another influx of cash that he can help fund all of the the things that he's doing. What's your take on Pivitol coming out of this? >> I mean, from here it looks like Pivotal is very comfortable with it's place and who it's customers are. I didn't see a lot of hedging about, we're going after a different market, or we're going for the individual developer, or we think this can be used by almost anybody. These are big companies we're talking about. In the key note this morning for the foundation, talked about enterprise grade. Talking about security, talking about scale, talking about developer experience. They're not shy about it. They're serious when they say they are an enterprise grade platform. So, which I think is great right? You should know yourself and I really feel like both the foundation and Pivitol, a big part of the foundation, does know itself and knows who's it's customers are. >> Yeah. I guess the only thing that I look at is, so many conferences that I go to, is this a platform that SAS companies are building on? As we look at what the future of companies, and especially in the technology space, are going to look like, yes we have some of these big companies that are using it, but you know there's not the, oh okay, work day and sales force, and all these companies, I haven't seen these companies that are already just software companies using it. It's the industry, older companies that are trying to get more into software and therefore this helps with their digital transformation. The companies that are born in the cloud, I haven't seen that in there, and that's fine. There's definitely a diversity of the marketplace. >> Yeah. If you look at a spectrum, we're saying that all SAS companies are software companies, well those SAS companies may be even more software company than a manufacturer or a finance company. So, I think that's okay. One thing they have to watch with the ecosystem and the customer base is the speed of evolution, the speed of the ecosystem, new entrants coming in. Can they keep the velocity of innovation up? I'm sure that's one thing they're looking at. >> Yeah. It is interesting right? Will the millennials be using Cloud Foundry caring about it? Or is this more the boomer, the older generation that have used it? >> Hey, it's not a job versus Steve McGrady, it's not a job versus Dotnet or Microsoft World anymore, but they're still a lot of job developers and new ones coming in. I think hey, there's still COBOL programmers. >> Alright. Want to give you final takeaways. For me some good quality users talking about their stories. There's reality here as you said, there wasn't any big shift is to what Cloud Foundry or the foundation or what they are doing. There's not some big pivot that they need to do. No pun on Pivotal. But, sometimes you go and you're like, are they tone deaf? Are they drinking their own Kool Aid? I think this group understands where they fit. They're focused on delivering it, definitely a changing ecosystem from previous years and how they fit into that whole cloud environment. I'll give you the final word. >> Sure. That goes with some of what you said. The people seem very productive. They seem happy. They seems super engaged. The show floor when the sessions were in session, there was nobody here on the show floor. People are here to learn. Which means that they're here to get stuff done. It's kind of a no nonsense crowd. So, I really enjoyed the day. >> Alright well, John always a pleasure to catch up with you. Appreciate you sitting in for the day and talking about all of this. You brought some great expertise to the discussion. Big thanks to the team here. We actually had four shows this week from the Cube, so as we get towards almost July 4th, which means that we get a deep breath before the fall tour comes. So, I want to thank everybody for watching. As always, check out thecube.net for all the videos from this show and all the other shows. If you see a show that we're going to be at and you want to be on, get in touch with us. If you have a show that we're not at, please feel free to reach out to us. We're really easy to get in touch with. For my co host John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman. Once again as always, thank you for watching the Cube and we will see you at the next show.