(bright music) >> Welcome back everyone to theCUBE's coverage of AWS re:Invent 2021 in person. So a live event, physical in-person, also virtual hybrid. So a lot of great action online, check out the website. All the videos are there on theCUBE, as well as what's going on all of the actions on site and theCUBE's here. I'm John Furrier, your host with Dave Vellante, my cohost. Finally, we've got David Brown, VP of Elastic Compute Cloud. EC2, the bread and butter. Our favorite part of Amazon. David, great to have you back on theCUBE in person. >> John, it's great to be back. It's the first time I'd been on theCUBE in person as well. A lot of virtual events with you guys, but it's amazing to be back at re:Invent. >> We're so excited for you. I know, Matt Garman and I've talked in the past. We've talked in the past. EC2 is just an amazing product. It's always been the core block of AWS. More and more action happening and developers are now getting more action and there's well, we wrote a big piece about it. What's going on? The Silicon's really paying off. You've got to also general purpose Intel and AMD, and you've got the custom silicon, all working together. What's the new update? Give us a scoop. >> Well, John, it's actually 15 years of EC2 this year and I've been lucky to be on that team for 14 years and so incredible to see the growth. It's been an amazing journey. The thing that's really driven us, two things. One is supporting new workloads. And so what are the workloads that customers have available out there trying to do on the cloud that we don't support and launch new instance types. And that's the first thing. The second one is price performance. How do we give customers more performance at a continuously decreasing price year-over-year? And that's just driven innovation across EC2 over the years with things like Graviton. All of our inferential chips are custom silicon, but also instance types with the latest Intel Ice Lake CPU's, latest Milan. We just announced the AMD Milan instance. It's just constantly innovation across the ever-increasing list of instances. So super exciting. >> So instances become the new thing. Provision an instance, spin up an instance. Instance becomes, and you can get instances, flavors, almost like flavors, right? >> David: Yeah. >> Take us through the difference between an instance and then the EC2 itself. >> That's correct, yeah. So we actually have, by end of the year, right now we have over 475 different instances available to you whether it's GPU accelerators, high-performance computing instances, memory optimized, just enormous number. We'll actually hit 500 by the end of the year, but that is it. I mean, customers are looking for different types of machines and those are the instances. >> So the Custom Silicon, it's one of the most interesting developments. We've written about it. AWS secret weapon is one of them. I wonder if you could take us back to the decision points and the journey. The Annapurna acquisition, you started working with them as a partner, then you said, all right, let's just buy the company. >> David: Yeah. >> And then now, you're seeing the acceleration, your time to tapeout is way, way compressed. Maybe what was the catalyst and maybe we can get into where it's going. >> Yeah, absolutely. Super interesting story 'cause it actually starts all the way back in 2008. In 2008, EC2 had actually been around for just a little under two years. And if you remember back then, everybody was like, will virtualize and hypervisors, specialization would never really get you the same performances, what they were calling bare metal back then. Everybody's looking at the cloud. And so we took a look at that. And I mean, network latencies, in some cases with hypervisors were as high as 200 or 300 milliseconds. And it was a number of real challenges. And so we knew that we would have to change the way that virtualization works and get into hardware. And so in 2010, 2011, we started to look at how could I offload my network processing, my IO processing to additional hardware. And that's what we delivered our first Nitro card in 2012 and 2013. We actually offloaded all of the processing of network to a Nitro card. And that Nitro card actually had a Annapurna arm chip on it. Our Nitro 1 chip. >> For the offload? >> The offload card, yeah. And so that's when my team started to code for Arm. We started to work on our Linux works for Arm. We actually had to write our own operating system initially 'cause there weren't any operating systems available we could use. And so that's what we started this journey. And over the years, when we saw how well it worked for networking, we said, let's do it for storage as well. And then we said, Hey, we could actually improve security significantly. And by 2017, we'd actually offloaded 100% of everything we did on that server to our offload cards Leaving a 100% of the server available for customers. And we're still actually the only cloud provider that does that today. >> Just to interject, in the data center today, probably 30% of the general purpose cores are used for offloads. You're saying 0% in the cloud. >> On our nitro instances, so every instance we've launched since 2017, our C5. We use 0% of that central core. And you can actually see that in our instance types. If you look at our largest instance type, you can see that we're giving you 96 cores and we're giving you, and our largest instance, 24 terabytes of memory. We're not giving you 23.6 terabytes 'cause we need some. It's all given to you as the customer. >> So much more efficient, >> Much, much more efficient, much better, better price performance as well. But then ultimately those Nitro chips, we went through Nitro 1, Nitro 2, Nitro 3, Nitro 4. We said, Hey, could we build a general purpose server chip? Could we actually bring Arm into the cloud? And in 2018, we launched the A1 instance, which was our Graviton1 instance. And what we didn't tell people at the time is that it was actually the same chip we were using on our network card. So essentially, it was a network card that we were giving to you as a server. But what it did is it sparked the ecosystem. That's why we put it out there. And I remember before launch, some was saying, is this just going to be a university project? Are we going to see people from big universities using Arm in the cloud? Was it really going to take off? And the response was amazing. The ecosystem just grew. We had customers move to it and immediately begin to see improvements. And we knew that a year later, Graviton2 was going to come out. And Graviton2 was just an amazing chip. It continues to see incredible adoption, 40% price performance improvement over other instances. >> So this is worth calling out because I think that example of the network card, I mean, innovation can come from anywhere. This is what Jassy always would say is do the experiments. Think about the impact of what's going on here. You're focused on a mission. Let's get that processing of the lowest cost, pick up some workloads. So you're constantly tinkering with tuning the engine. New discovery comes in. Nitro is born. The chip comes in. But I think the fundamental thing, and I want to get your reaction to this 'cause we've put this out there on our post on Sunday. And I said, in every inflection point, I'm old enough, my birthday was yesterday. I'm old enough to know that. >> David: I saw that. >> I'm old enough to know that in the eighties, the client server shifts. Every inflection point where development changed, the methodology, the mindset or platforms change, all the apps went to the better platform. Who wants to run their application on a slower platform? And so, and those inflects. So now that's happening now, I believe. So you got better performance and I'm imagining that the app developers are coding for it. Take us through how you see that because okay, you're offering up great performance for workloads. Now it's cloud workloads. That's almost all apps. Can you comment on that? >> Well, it has been really interesting to see. I mean, as I said, we were unsure who was going to use it when we initially launched and the adoption has been amazing. Initially, obviously it's always, a lot of the startups, a lot of the more agile companies that can move a lot faster, typically a little bit smaller. They started experimenting, but the data got out there. That 40% price performance was a reality. And not only for specific workloads, it was broadly successful across a number of workloads. And so we actually just had SAP who obviously is an enormous enterprise, supporting enterprises all over the world, announced that they are going to be moving the S/4 HANA Cloud to run on Graviton2. It's just phenomenal. And we've seen enterprises of that scale and game developers, every single vertical looking to move to Graviton2 and get that 40% price performance. >> Now we have to, as analysts, we have to say, okay, how did you get to that 40%? And you have to make some assumptions obviously. And it feels like you still have some dry powder when you looked at Graviton2. I think you were running, I don't know, it's speculated anyway. I don't know if you guys, it's your data, two and a half, 2.5 gigahertz. >> David: Yeah. >> I don't know if we can share what's going on with Graviton3, but my point is you had some dry powder and now with Graviton3, quite a range of performance, 'cause it really depends on the workload. >> David: That's right. >> Maybe you could give some insight as to that. What can you share about how you tuned Graviton3? >> When we look at benchmarking, we don't want to be trying to find that benchmark that's highly tuned and then put out something that is, Hey, this is the absolute best we can get it to and that's 40%. So that 40% is actually just on average. So we just went and ran real world workloads. And we saw some that were 55%. We saw some that were 25. It depends on what it was, but on average, it was around the 35, 45%, and we said 40%. And the great thing about that is customers come back and say, Hey, we saw 40% in this workload. It wasn't that I had to tune it. And so with Graviton3, launching this week. Available in our C7g instance, we said 25%. And that is just a very standard benchmark in what we're seeing. And as we start to see more customer workloads, I think it's going to be incredible to see what that range looks like. Graviton2 for single-threaded applications, it didn't give you that much of a performance. That's what we meant by cloud applications, generally, multi-threaded. In Graviton3, that's no longer the case. So we've had some customers report up to 80% performance improvements of Graviton2 to Graviton3 when the application was more of a single-threaded application. So we started to see. (group chattering) >> You have to keep going, the time to market is compressing. So you have that, go ahead, sorry. >> No, no, I always want to add one thing on the difference between single and multi-threaded applications. A lot of legacy, you're single threaded. So this is kind of an interesting thing. So the mainframe, migration stuff, you start to see that. Is that where that comes in the whole? >> Well, a lot of the legacy apps, but also even some of the new apps, like single threading like video transcoding, for example, is all done on a single core. It's very difficult. I mean, almost impossible to do that multi-threaded way. A lot of the crypto algorithms as well, encryption and cryptography is often single core. So with Graviton3, we've seen a significant performance boost for video encoding, cryptographic algorithms, that sort of thing, which really impacts even the most modern applications. >> So that's an interesting point because now single threaded is where the vertical use cases come in. It's not like more general purpose OS kind of things. >> Yeah, and Graviton has already been very broad. I think we're just knocking down the last few verticals where maybe it didn't support it and now it absolutely does. >> And if an ISV then ports, like an SAP's ports to Graviton, then the customer doesn't see any, I mean, they're going to see the performance difference, but they don't have to think about it. >> David: Yeah. >> They just say, I choose that instance and I'm going to get better price performance. >> Exactly, so we've seen that from our ISVs. We've also been doing that with our AWS services. So services like EMR, RDS, Elastic Cache, it will be moving and making Graviton2 available for customers, which means the customer doesn't have to do the migration at all. It's all done for them. They just pick the instance and get the price performance benefits, and so yeah. >> I think, oh, no, that was serverless. Sorry. >> Well, Lambda actually just did launch on Graviton2. And I think they were talking about a 35% price performance improvement. >> Who was that? >> Lambda, a couple of months ago. >> So what does an ISV have to do to port to Graviton. >> It's relatively straightforward, and this is actually one of the things that has slowed customers down is the, wow, that must be a big migration. And that ecosystem that I spoke about is the important part. And today, with all the Linux operating systems being available for Arm running on Graviton2, with all of the container runtimes being available, and then slowly open source applications in ISV is being available. It's actually really, really easy. And we just ran the Graviton2 four-day challenge. And we did that because we actually had an enterprise migrate one of the largest production applications in just four days. Now, I probably wouldn't recommend that to most enterprises that we see is a little too fast, but they could actually do that. >> But just from a numbers standpoint, that's insanely amazing. I mean, when you think about four days. >> Yeah. >> And when we talked on virtually last year, this year, I can't remember now. You said, we'll just try it. >> David: That's right. >> And see what happens, so I presume a lot of people have tried it. >> Well, that's my advice. It's the unknown, it's the what will it take? So take a single engineer, tell them and give them a time. Say you have one week, get this running on Graviton2, and I think the results are pretty amazing, very surprised. >> We were one of the first, if not the first to say that Arm is going to be dominant in the enterprise. We know it's dominant in the Edge. And when you look at the performance curves and the time to tape out, it's just astounding. And I don't know if people appreciate that relative to the traditional Moore's law curve. I mean, it's a style. And then when you combine the power of the CPU, the GPU, the NPU, kind of what Apple does in the iPhone, it blows away the historical performance curves. And you're on that curve. >> That's right. >> I wonder if you could sort of explain that. >> So with Graviton, we're optimizing just across every single part of AWS. So one of the nice things is we actually own that end-to-end. So when it starts with the early design of Graviton2 and Graviton3, and we obviously working on other chips right now. We're actually using the cloud to do all of the electronic design automation. So we're able to test with AWS how that Graviton3 chip is going to work long before we've even started taping it out. And so those workloads are running on high-frequency CPU's on Graviton. Actually we're using Graviton to build Graviton now in the cloud. The other thing we're doing is we're making sure that the Annapurna team that's building those CPUs is deeply engaged with my team and we're going to ultimately go and build those instances so that when that chip arrives from tapeout. I'm not waiting nine months or two years, like would normally be the case, but I actually had an instance up and running within a week or two on somebody's desk studying to do the integration. And that's something we've optimized significantly to get done. And so it allows us to get that iteration time. It also allows us to be very, very accurate with our tapeouts. We're not having to go back with Graviton. They're all A1 chips. We're not having to go back and do multiple runs of these things because we can do so much validation and performance testing in the cloud ahead of time. >> This is the epiphany of the Arm model. >> It really is. >> It's a standard. When you send it to the fab, they know what's going to work. You hit volume and it's just no fab. >> Well, this is a great thread. We'll stay on this 'cause Adam told us when we met with them for re:Invent that they're seeing a lot more visibility into use cases at the scale. So the scale gives you an advantage on what instances might work. >> And makes the economics works. >> Makes the economics work, hence the timing, the shrinking time to market, not there, but also for the apps. Talk about the scale advantage you guys have. >> Absolutely. I mean, the scale advantage of AWS plays out in a number of ways for our customers. The first thing is being able to deliver highly optimized hardware. So we don't just look at the Graviton3 CPU, you were speaking about the core count and the frequency and Peter spoke about a lot of that in his keynote yesterday. But we look at how does the Graviton3 CPU work with the rest of the instance. What is the right balance between the CPU and memory? The CPU and the Hydro. What's the performance and the drive? We just launched the Nitro SSD, which is now we've actually building our own custom SSDs for Nitro getting better performance, being able to do updates, better security, making it more cloudy. We're just saying, we've been challenged with the SSD in the parts. The other place that scales really helping is in capacity. Being able to make sure that we can absorb things like the COVID spike, or the stuff you see in the financial industry with just enormous demand for compute. We can do that because of our scale. We are able to scale. And the final area is actually in quality because I have such an enormous fleet. I'm actually able to drive down AFR. So annual failure rates, are we well below what the mathematical theoretical tenant or possibility is? So if you look at what's put on that actual sticker on the box that says you should be able to get a full percent AFR. At scale and with focus, we're actually able to get that down to significantly below what the mathematical entitlement was actually be. >> Yeah, it's incredible. I've got a great, and this is the advantage, and that's why I believe anyone who's writing applications that has includes a database, data transfer, any kind of execution of code will use the stack. >> Why would they? Really, why? We've seen this, like you said before, whether it was PC, then the fastest Pentium or somebody. >> Why would you want your app to run slower? >> Unix box, right? ISVS want it to run as fast and as cheaply as possible. Now power plays into it as well. >> Yeah, well, we do have, I agree with what you're saying. We do have a number of customers that are still looking to run on x86, but obviously customers that want windows. Windows isn't available for Arm and so that's a challenge. They'll continue to do that. And you know the way we do look at it is most law kind of died out on us in 2002, 2003. And what I'm hoping is, not necessarily bringing wars a little back, but then we say, let's not accept the 10%, 15% improvement year-over-year. There's absolutely more we can all be doing. And so I'm excited to see where the x86 world's going and they doing a lot of great stuff. Intel Ice Lakes looking amazing. Milan is really great to have an AWS as well. >> Well, I'm thinking it's fair point 'cause we certainly look what Pat's doing it at Intel and he's remaking the company. I've said he's going to follow on the Arm playbook in my mind a little bit, and which is the right thing to do. So competition is a good thing. >> David: Absolutely. >> We're excited for you and a great to see Graviton and you guys have this kind of inflection point. We've been tracking for a while, but now the world's starting to see it. So congratulations to your team. >> David: Thank you. >> Just a couple of things. You guys have some news on instances. Talk about the deprecation issue and how you guys are keeping instances alive real quick. >> Yeah, we're super customer obsessed at Amazon. And so that really drives us. And one of the worst things for us to do is to have to tell a customer that we no longer supporting a service. We recently actually just deprecated the ECG classic network. I'm not sure if you saw that and that's actually off the 10 years of continuing to support it. And the only reason we did it is we have a tiny percentage of customers still using that from back in 2012. But one of the challenges is obviously instance hardware eventually will ultimately time out and fail and have hardware issues as it gets older and older. And so we didn't want to be in a place, in EC2, where we would have to constantly go to customers and say that M1 small, that C3, whatever you were running, it's no longer supported, please move. That's just a text that customers shouldn't have to do. And if they still getting value out of an older instance, let them keep using it. So we actually just announced at re:Invent, in my keynote on Tuesday, the longevity support for EC2 instances, which means we will never come back to you again and ask you to please get off an instance, because we can actually emulate all those instances on our Nitro system. And so all of these instances are starting to migrate to Nitro. You're getting all the benefits of Nitro for now some of our older zen instances, but also you don't have to worry about that work. That's just not something you need to do to get off in all the instance. >> That's great. That's a great test service. Stay on as long as you want. When you're ready to move, move. Okay, final question for you. I know we've got time, I want to get this in. The global network, you guys are known for AWS cloud WAN serve. Gives you updates on what's going on with that. >> So Werner just announced that in his keynote and over the last two to three years or so, we've seen a lot of customers starting to use the AWS backbone, which is extensive. I mean, you've seen the slides in Werner's keynote. It really does span the world. I think it's probably one of the largest networks out there. Customers starting to use that for actually their branch office communication. So instead of going and provisioning the own international MPLS networks and that sort of thing, they say, let me onboard to AWS with VPN or direct connect, and I can actually run the AWS backbone around the world. Now doing that actually has some complexity. You got to think about transit gateways. You got to think about those inter-region peering. And AWS cloud when takes all of that complexity away, you essentially create a cloud WAN, connecting to it to VPN or direct connect, and you can even go and actually set up network segments. So essentially VLANs for different parts of the organization. So super excited to get out that out of there. >> So the ease of use is the key there. >> Massively easy to use. and we have 26 SD-WAN partners. We even partnering with folks like Verizon and Swisscom in Switzerland to telco to actually allow them to use it for their customers as well. >> We'll probably use your service someday when we have a global rollout date. >> Let's do that, CUBE Global. And then the other was the M1 EC2 instance, which got a lot of applause. >> David: Absolutely. >> M1, I think it was based on A15. >> Yeah, that's for Mac. We've got to be careful 'cause M1 is our first instance as well. >> Yeah right, it's a little confusion there. >> So it's a Mac. The EC2 Mac is with M1 silicon from Apple, which super excited to put out there. >> Awesome. >> David Brown, great to see you in person. Congratulations to you and the team and all the work you guys have done over the years. And now that people starting to realize the cloud platform, the compute just gets better and better. It's a key part of the system. >> Thanks John, it's great to be here. >> Thanks for sharing. >> The SiliconANGLE is here. We're talking about custom silicon here on AWS. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante. You're watching theCUBE. The global leader in tech coverage. We'll be right back with more covers from re:Invent after this break. (bright music)

(upbeat electronic music) >> Narrator: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE conversation. >> Okay, hello everyone. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE. We're here with Meet the Analysts segment Sunday morning. We've got everyone around the world here to discuss a bit of the news around the EU killing the privacy deal, striking it down, among other topics around, you know, data privacy and global commerce. We got great guests here, Ray Wang, CEO of Constellation Research. Bill Mew, founder and CEO of Cyber Crisis Management from the Firm Crisis Team. And JD, CEO of Spearhead Management. JD, I can let you say your name because I really can't pronounce it. How do I (laughs) pronounce it, doctor? >> I wouldn't even try it unless you are Dutch, otherwise it will seriously hurt your throat. (Ray laughing) So, JD works perfect for me. >> Doctor Drooghaag. >> And Sarbjeet Johal, who's obviously an influencer, a cloud awesome native expert. Great, guys. Great to have you on, appreciate it, thanks for comin' on. And Bill, thank you for initiating this, I appreciate all your tweets. >> Happy Sunday. (Bill laughing) >> You guys have been really tweeting up a storm, I want to get everyone together, kind of as an analyst, Meet the Analyst segment. Let's go through with it. The news is the EU and U.S. Privacy Shield for data struck down by the court, that's the BBC headline. Variety of news, different perspectives, you've got an American perspective and you've got an international perspective. Bill, we'll start with you. What does this news mean? I mean, basically half the people in the world probably don't know what the Privacy Shield means, so why is this ruling so important, and why should it be discussed? >> Well, thanks to sharing between Europe and America, it's based on a two-way promise that when data goes from Europe to America, the Americans promise to respect our privacy, and when data goes form America to Europe, the Europeans promise to respect the American privacy. Unfortunately, there are big cultural differences between the two blocks. The Europeans have a massive orientation around privacy as a human right. And in the U.S., there's somewhat more of a prioritization on national security, and therefore for some time there's been a mismatch here, and it could be argued that the Americans haven't been living up to their promise because they've had various different laws, and look how much talk about FISA and the Cloud Act that actually contravene European privacy and are incompatible with the promise Americans have given. That promise, first of all, was in the form of a treaty called Safe Harbor. This went to court and was struck down. It was replaced by Privacy Shield, which was pretty much the same thing really, and that has recently been to the court as well, and that has been struck down. There now is no other means of legally sharing data between Europe and America other than what are being called standard contractual clauses. This isn't a broad treaty between two nations, these are drawn by each individual country. But also in the ruling, they said that standard contractual clauses could not be used by any companies that were subject to mass surveillance. And actually in the U.S., the FISA courts enforce a level of mass surveillance through all of the major IT firms, of all major U.S. telcos, cloud firms, or indeed, social media firms. So, this means that for all of the companies out there and their clients, business should be carrying on as usual apart from if you're one of those major U.S. IT firms, or one of their clients. >> So, why did this come about? Was there like a major incident? Why now, was it in the court, stuck in the courts? Were people bitchin' and moanin' about it? Why did this go down, what's the real issue? >> For those of us who have been following this attentively, things have been getting more and more precarious for a number of years now. We've had a situation where there are different measures being taken in the U.S., that have continued to erode the different protections that there were for Europeans. FISA is an example that I've given, and that is the sort of secret courts and secret warrants that are issued to seize data without anyone's knowledge. There's the Cloud Act, which is a sort of extrajudicial law that means that warrants can be served in America to U.S. organizations, and they have to hand over data wherever that data resides, anywhere in the world. So, data could exist on a European server, if it was under the control of an American company, they'd have to hand that over. So, whilst FISA is in direct conflict with the promises that the Americans made, things like the Cloud Act are not only in controversion with the promise they've made, there's conflicting law here, because if you're a U.S. subsidiary of a big U.S. firm, and you're based in Europe, who do you obey, the European law that says you can't hand it over because of GDPR, or the American laws that says they've got extrajudicial control, and that you've got to hand it over. So, it's made things a complete mess. And to say has this stuff, hasn't really happened? No, there's been a gradual erosion, and this has been going through the courts for a number of years. And many of us have seen it coming, and now it just hit us. >> So, if I get you right in what you're saying, it's basically all this mishmash of different laws, and there's no coherency, and consistency, is that the core issue? >> On the European side you could argue there's quite a lot of consistency, because we uphold people's privacy, in theory. But there have been incidents which we could talk about with that, but in theory, we hold your rights dear, and also the rights of Europeans, so everyone's data should be safe here from the sort of mass surveillance we're seeing. In the U.S., there's more of a direct conflict between everything, including there's been a, in his first week in the White House, Donald Trump signed an executive order saying that the Privacy Act in the U.S., which had been the main protection for people in the U.S., no longer applied to non-U.S. citizens. Which was, if you wanted try and cause a storm, and if you wanted to try and undermine the treaty, there's no better way of doing it than that. >> A lot of ways, Ray, I mean simplify this for me, because I'm a startup, I'm hustlin', or I'm a big company, I don't even know who runs the servers anymore, and I've got data stored in multiple clouds, I got in regions, and Oracle just announced more regions, you got Amazon, a gazillion regions, I could be on-premise. I mean bottom line, what is this about? I mean, and -- >> Bill's right, I mean when Max Schrems, the Austrian. Bill's right, when Max Schrems the Austrian activist actually filed his case against Facebook for where data was being stored, data residency wasn't as popular. And you know, what it means for companies that are in the cloud is that you have to make sure your data's being stored in the region, and following those specific region rules, you can't skirt those rules anymore. And I think the cloud companies know that this has been coming for some time, and that's why there's been announced in a lot of regions, a lot of areas that are actually happening, so I think that's the important part. But going back to Bill's earlier point, which is important, is America is basically the Canary Islands of privacy, right? Privacy is there, but it isn't there in a very, very explicit sense, and I think we've been skirting the rules for quite some time, because a lot of our economy depends on that data, and the marketing of the data. And so we often confuse privacy with consent, and also with value exchange, and I think that's part of the problem of what's going on here. Companies that have been building their business models on free data, free private data, free personally identifiable data information are the ones that are at risk! And I think that's what's going on here. >> It's the classic Facebook issue, you're the product, and the data is your product. Well, I want to get into what this means, 'cause my personal take away, not knowing the specifics, and just following say, cyber security for instance, one of the tenets there is that data sharing is an invaluable, important ethos in the community. Now, everyone has their own privacy, or security data, they don't want to let everyone know about their exploits but, but it's well known in the security world that sharing data with each other, different companies and countries is actually a good thing. So, the question that comes in my mind, is this really about data sharing or data privacy, or both? >> I think it's about both. And actually what the ruling is saying here is, all we're asking from the European side is please stop spying on us and please give us a level of equal protection that you give to your own citizens. Because data comes from America to Europe, whatever that data belongs to, a U.S. citizen or a European citizen, it's given equal protection. It is only if data goes in the other direction, where you have secret courts, secret warrants, seizure of data on this massive scale, and also a level of lack of equivalence that has been imposed. And we're just asking that once you've sorted out a few of those things, we'd say everything's back on the table, away we go again! >> Why don't we merge the EU with the United States? Wouldn't that solve the problem? (Bill laughing) >> We just left Europe! (laughs heartily) >> Actually I always -- >> A hostile takeover of the UK maybe, the 52nd state. (Bill laughing loudly) >> I always pick on Bill, like Bill, you got all screaming loud and clear about all these concerns, but UKs trying to get out of that economic union. It is a union at the end of the day, and I think the problem is the institutional mismatch between the EU and U.S., U.S. is old democracy, bigger country, population wise, bigger economy. Whereas Europe is several countries trying to put together, band together as one entity, and the institutions are new, like you know, they're 15 years old, right? They're maturing. I think that's where the big mismatch is and -- >> Well, Ray, I want to get your thoughts on this, Ray wrote a book, I forget what year it was, this digital disruption, basically it was digital transformation before it was actually a trend. I mean to me it's like, do you do the process first and then figure out where the value extraction is, and this may be a Silicon Valley or an American thing, but go create value, then figure out how to create process or understand regulations. So, if data and entrepreneurship is going to be a new modern era of value, why wouldn't we want to create a rule based system that's open and enabling, and not restrictive? >> So, that's a great point, right? And the innovation culture means you go do it first, and you figure out the rules later, and that's been a very American way of getting things done, and very Silicon Valley in our perspective, not everyone, but I think in general that's kind of the trend. I think the challenge here is that we are trading privacy for security, privacy for convenience, privacy for personalization, right? And on the security level, it's a very different conversation than what it is on the consumer end, you know, personalization side. On the security side I think most Americans are okay with a little bit of "spying," at least on your own side, you know, to keep the country safe. We're not okay with a China level type of spying, which we're not sure exactly what that means or what's enforceable in the courts. We look like China to the Europeans in the way we treat privacy, and I think that's the perspective we need to understand because Europeans are very explicit about how privacy is being protected. And so this really comes back to a point where we actually have to get to a consent model on privacy, as to knowing what data is being shared, you have the right to say no, and when you have the right to say no. And then if you have a value exchange on that data, then it's really like sometimes it's monetary, sometimes it's non-monetary, sometimes there's other areas around consensus where you can actually put that into place. And I think that's what's missing at this point, saying, you know, "Do we pay for your data? Do we explicitly get your consent first before we use it?" And we haven't had that in place, and I think that's where we're headed towards. And you know sometimes we actually say privacy should be a human right, it is in the UN Charter, but we haven't figured out how to enforce it or talk about it in the digital age. And so I think that's the challenge. >> Okay, people, until they lose it, they don't really understand what it means. I mean, look at Americans. I have to say that we're idiots on this front, (Bill chuckling) but you know, the thing is most people don't even understand how much value's getting sucked out of their digital exhaust. Like, our kids, TikTok and whatnot. So I mean, I get that, I think there's some, there's going to be blow back for America for sure. I just worry it's going to increase the cost of doing business, and take away from the innovation for citizen value, the people, because at the end of the day, it's for the people right? I mean, at the end of the day it's like, what's my privacy mean if I lose value? >> Even before we start talking about the value of the data and the innovation that we can do through data use, you have to understand the European perspective here. For the European there's a level of double standards and an erosion of trust. There's double standards in the fact that in California you have new privacy regulations that are slightly different to GDPR, but they're very much GDPR like. And if the boot was on the other foot, to say if we were spying on Californians and looking at their personal data, and contravening CCPA, the Californians would be up in arms! Likewise if we having promised to have a level of equality, had enacted a local rule in Europe that said that when data from America's over here, actually the privacy of Americans counts for nothing, we're only going to prioritize the privacy of Europeans. Again, the Americans would be up in arms! And therefore you can see that there are real double standards here that are a massive issue, and until those addressed, we're not going to trust the Americans. And likewise, the very fact that on a number of occasions Americans have signed up to treaties and promised to protect our data as they did with Safe Harbor, as they did with Privacy Shield, and then have blatantly, blatantly failed to do so means that actually to get back to even a level playing field, where we were, you have a great deal of trust to overcome! And the thing from the perspective of the big IT firms, they've seen this coming for a long time, as Ray was saying, and they sought to try and have a presence in Europe and other things. But the way this ruling has gone is that, I'm sorry, that isn't going to be sufficient! These big IT firms based in the U.S. that have been happy to hand over data, well some of them maybe more happy than others, but they all need to hand over data to the NSA or the CIA. They've been doing this for some time now without actually respecting this data privacy agreement that has existed between the two trading blocks. And now they've been called out, and the position now is that the U.S. is no longer trusted, and neither are any of these large American technology firms. And until the snooping stops and equality is introduced, they can now no longer, even from their European operations, they can no longer use standard contractual clauses to transfer data, which is going to be a massive restriction on their business. And if they had any sense, they'd be lobbying very, very hard right now to the Senate, to the House, to try and persuade U.S. lawmakers actually to stick to some these treaties! To stop introducing really mad laws that ride roughshod over other people's privacy, and have a certain amount of respect. >> Let's let JD weigh in, 'cause he just got in, sorry on the video, I made him back on a host 'cause he dropped off. Just, Bill, real quick, I mean I think it's like when, you know, I go to Europe there's the line for Americans, there's the line for EU. Or EU and everybody else. I mean we might be there, but ultimately this has to be solved. So, JD, I want to let you weigh in, Germany has been at the beginning forefront of privacy, and they've been hardcore, and how's this all playing out in your perspective? >> Well, the first thing that we have to understand is that in Germany, there is a very strong law for regulation. Germans panic as soon as they know regulation, so they need to understand what am I allowed to do, and what am I not allowed to do. And they expect the same from the others. For the record I'm not German, but I live in Germany for some 20 years, so I got a bit of a feeling for them. And that sense of need for regulation has spread very fast throughout the European Union, because most of the European member states of the European Union consider this, that it makes sense, and then we found that Britain had already a very good framework for privacy, so GDPR itself is very largely based on what the United Kingdom already had in place with their privacy act. Moving forward, we try to find agreement and consensus with other countries, especially the United States because that's where most of the tech providers are, only to find out, and that is where it started to go really, really bad, 2014, when the mass production by Edward Snowden came out, to find out it's not data from citizens, it's surveillance programs which include companies. I joined a purchasing conference a few weeks ago where the purchase of a large European multinational, where the purchasing director explicitly stated that usage of U.S. based tech providers for sensitive data is prohibited as a result of them finding out that they have been under surveillance. So, it's not just the citizens, there's mass -- >> There you have it, guys! We did trust you! We did have agreements there that you could have abided by, but you chose not to, you chose to abuse our trust! And you're now in a position where you are no longer trusted, and unless you can lobby your own elected representatives to actually recreate a level playing field, we're not going to continue trusting you. >> So, I think really I -- >> Well I mean that, you know, innovation has to come from somewhere, and you know, has to come from America if that's the case, you guys have to get on board, right? Is that what it -- >> Innovation without trust? >> Is that the perspective? >> I don't think it's a country thing, I mean like, it's not you or them, I think everybody -- >> I'm just bustin' Bill's chops there. >> No, but I think everybody, everybody is looking for what the privacy rules are, and that's important. And you can have that innovation with consent, and I think that's really where we're going to get to. And this is why I keep pushing that issue. I mean, privacy should be a fundamental right, and how you get paid for that privacy is interesting, or how you get compensated for that privacy if you know what the explicit value exchange is. What you're talking about here is the surveillance that's going on by companies, which shouldn't be happening, right? That shouldn't be happening at the company level. At the government level I can understand that that is happening, and I think those are treaties that the governments have to agree upon as to how much they're going to impinge on our personal privacy for the trade off for security, and I don't think they've had those discussions either. Or they decided and didn't tell any of their citizens, and I think that's probably more likely the case. >> I mean, I think what's happening here, Bill, you guys were pointing out, and Ray, you articulated there on the other side, and my kind of colorful joke aside, is that we're living a first generation modern sociology problem. I mean, this is a policy challenge that extends across multiple industries, cyber security, citizen's rights, geopolitical. I mean when would look, and even when we were doing CUBE events overseas in Europe, in North American companies we'd call it abroad, we'd just recycle the American program, and we found there's so much localization value. So, Ray, this is the digital disruption, it's the virtualization of physical for digital worlds, and it's a lot of network theory, which is computer science, a lot of sociology. This is a modern challenge, and I don't think it so much has a silver bullet, it's just that we need smart people working on this. That's my take away! >> I think we can describe the ideal endpoint being somewhere we have meaningful protection alongside the maximization of economic and social value through innovation. So, that should be what we would all agree would be the ideal endpoint. But we need both, we need meaningful protection, and we need the maximization of economic and social value through innovation! >> Can I add another axis? Another axis, security as well. >> Well, I could -- >> I put meaningful protection as becoming both security and privacy. >> Well, I'll speak for the American perspective here, and I won't speak, 'cause I'm not the President of the United States, but I will say as someone who's been from Silicon Valley and the east coast as a technical person, not a political person, our lawmakers are idiots when it comes to tech, just generally. (Ray laughing) They're not really -- (Bill laughing loudly) >> They really don't understand. They really don't understand the tech at all! >> So, the problem is -- >> I'm not claiming ours are a great deal better. (laughs) >> Well, this is why I think this is a modern problem. Like, the young people I talk to are like, "Why do we have this rules?" They're all lawyers that got into these positions of Congress on the American side, and so with the American JEDI Contract you guys have been following very closely is, it's been like the old school Oracle, IBM, and then Amazon is leading with an innovative solution, and Microsoft has come in and re-pivoted. And so what you have is a fight for the digital future of citizenship! And I think what's happening is that we're in a massive societal transition, where the people in charge don't know what the hell they're talkin' about, technically. And they don't know who to tap to solve the problems, or even shape or frame the problems. Now, there's pockets of people that are workin' on it, but to me as someone who looks at this saying, it's a pretty simple solution, no one's ever seen this before. So, there's a metaphor you can draw, but it's a completely different problem space because it's, this is all digital, data's involved. >> We've got a lobbyists out there, and we've got some tech firms spending an enormous amount of lobbying. If those lobbyists aren't trying to steer their representatives in the right direction to come up with law that aren't going to massively undermine trade and data sharing between Europe and America, then they're making a big mistake, because we got here through some really dumb lawmaking in the U.S., I mean, there are none of the laws in Europe that are a problem here. 'Cause GDPR isn't a great difference, a great deal different from some of the laws that we have already in California and elsewhere. >> Bill, Bill. >> The laws that are at issue here -- >> Bill, Bill! You have to like, back up a little bit from that rhetoric that EU is perfect and U.S. is not, that's not true actually. >> I'm not saying we're perfect! >> No, no, you say that all the time. >> But I'm saying there's a massive lack of innovation. Yeah, yeah. >> I don't, I've never said it! >> Arm wrestle! >> Yes, yes. >> When I'm being critical of some of the dumb laws in the U.S, (Sarbjeet laughing) I'm not saying Europe is perfect. What we're trying to say is that in this particular instance, I said there was an equal balance here between meaningful protection and the maximization of economic and social value. On the meaningful protection side, America's got it very wrong in terms of the meaningful protection it provides to civil European data. On the maximization of economic and social value, I think Europe's got it wrong. I think there are a lot of things we could do in Europe to actually have far more innovation. >> Yeah. >> It's a cultural issue. The Germans want rules, that's what they crave for. America's the other way, we don't want rules, I mean, pretty much is a rebel society. And that's kind of the ethos of most tech companies. But I think you know, to me the media, there's two things that go on with this tech business. The company's themselves have to be checked by say, government, and I believe in not a lot of regulation, but enough to check the power of bad actors. Media so called "checking power", both of these major roles, they don't really know what they're talking about, and this is back to the education piece. The people who are in the media so called "checking power" and the government checking power assume that the companies are bad. Right, so yeah, because eight out of ten companies like Amazon, actually try to do good things. If you don't know what good is, you don't really, (laughs) you know, you're in the wrong game. So, I think media and government have a huge education opportunity to look at this because they don't even know what they're measuring. >> I support the level of innovation -- >> I think we're unreeling from the globalization. Like, we are undoing the globalization, and that these are the side effects, these conflicts are a side effect of that. >> Yeah, so all I'm saying is I support the focus on innovation in America, and that has driven an enormous amount of wealth and value. What I'm questioning here is do you really need to spy on us, your allies, in order to help that innovation? And I'm starting to, I mean, do you need mass surveillance of your allies? I mean, I can see you may want to have some surveillance of people who are a threat to you, but wait, guys, we're meant to be on your side, and you haven't been treating our privacy with a great deal of respect! >> You know, Saudi Arabia was our ally. You know, 9/11 happened because of them, their people, right? There is no ally here, and there is no enemy, in a way. We don't know where the rogue actors are sitting, like they don't know, they can be within the walls -- >> It's well understood I think, I agree, sorry. it's well understood that nation states are enabling terrorist groups to take out cyber attacks. That's well known, the source enables it. So, I think there's the privacy versus -- >> I'm not sure it's true in your case that it's Europeans that's doing this though. >> No, no, well you know, they share -- >> I'm a former officer in the Royal Navy, I've stood shoulder to shoulder with my U.S. counterparts. I put my life on the line on NATO exercises in real war zones, and I'm now a disabled ex-serviceman as a result of that. I mean, if I put my line on the line shoulder to shoulder with Americans, why is my privacy not respected? >> Hold on -- >> I feel it's, I was going to say actually that it's not that, like even the U.S., right? Part of the spying internally is we have internal actors that are behaving poorly. >> Yeah. >> Right, we have Marxist organizations posing as, you know, whatever it is, I'll leave it at that. But my point being is we've got a lot of that, every country has that, every country has actors and citizens and people in the system that are destined to try to overthrow the system. And I think that's what that surveillance is about. The question is, we don't have treaties, or we didn't have your explicit agreements. And that's why I'm pushing really hard here, like, they're separating privacy versus security, which is the national security, and privacy versus us as citizens in terms of our data being basically taken over for free, being used for free. >> John: I agree with that. >> That I think we have some agreement on. I just think that our governments haven't really had that conversation about what surveillance means. Maybe someone agreed and said, "Okay, that's fine. You guys can go do that, we won't tell anybody." And that's what it feels like. And I don't think we deliberately are saying, "Hey, we wanted to spy on your citizens." I think someone said, "Hey, there's a benefit here too." Otherwise I don't think the EU would have let this happen for that long unless Max had made that case and started this ball rolling, so, and Edward Snowden and other folks. >> Yeah, and I totally support the need for security. >> I want to enter the -- >> I mean we need to, where there are domestic terrorists, we need to stop them, and we need to have local action in UK to stop it happening here, and in America to stop it happening there. But if we're doing that, there is absolutely no need for the Americans to be spying on us. And there's absolutely no need for the Americans to say that privacy applies to U.S. citizens only, and not to Europeans, these are daft, it's just daft! >> That's a fair point. I'm sure GCHQ and everyone else has this covered, I mean I'm sure they do. (laughs) >> Oh, Bill, I know, I've been involved, I've been involved, and I know for a fact the U.S. and the UK are discussing I know a company called IronNet, which is run by General Keith Alexander, funded by C5 Capital. There's a lot of collaboration, because again, they're tryin' to get their arms around how to frame it. And they all agree that sharing data for the security side is super important, right? And I think IronNet has this thing called Iron Dome, which is essentially like they're saying, hey, we'll just consistency around the rules of shared data, and we can both, everyone can have their own little data. So, I think there's recognition at the highest levels of some smart people on both countries. (laughs) "Hey, let's work together!" The issue I have is just policy, and I think there's a lot of clustering going on. Clustered here around just getting out of their own way. That's my take on that. >> Are we a PG show? Wait, are we a PG show? I just got to remember that. (laughs) (Bill laughing) >> It's the internet, there's no regulation, there's no rules! >> There's no regulation! >> The European rules or is it the American rules? (Ray laughing) >> I would like to jump back quickly to the purpose of the surveillance, and especially when mass surveillance is done under the cover of national security and terror prevention. I worked with five clients in the past decade who all have been targeted under mass surveillance, which was revealed by Edward Snowden, and when they did their own investigation, and partially was confirmed by Edward Snowden in person, they found out that their purchasing department, their engineering department, big parts of their pricing data was targeted in mass surveillance. There's no way that anyone can explain me that that has anything to do with preventing terror attacks, or finding the bad guys. That is economical espionage, you cannot call it in any other way. And that was authorized by the same legislation that authorizes the surveillance for the right purposes. I'm all for fighting terror, and anything that can help us prevent terror from happening, I would be the first person to welcome it. But I do not welcome when that regulation is abused for a lot of other things under the cover of national interest. I understand -- >> Back to the lawmakers again. And again, America's been victim to the Chinese some of the individual properties, well documented, well known in tech circles. >> Yeah, but just 'cause the Chinese have targeted you doesn't give you free right to target us. >> I'm not saying that, but its abuse of power -- >> If the U.S. can sort out a little bit of reform, in the Senate and the House, I think that would go a long way to solving the issues that Europeans have right now, and a long way to sort of reaching a far better place from which we can all innovate and cooperate. >> Here's the challenge that I see. If you want to be instrumenting everything, you need a closed society, because if you have a free country like America and the UK, a democracy, you're open. If you're open, you can't stop everything, right? So, there has to be a trust, to your point, Bill. As to me that I'm just, I just can't get my arms around that idea of complete lockdown and data surveillance because I don't think it's gettable in the United States, like it's a free world, it's like, open. It should be open. But here we've got the grids, and we've got the critical infrastructure that should be protected. So, that's one hand. I just can't get around that, 'cause once you start getting to locking down stuff and measuring everything, that's just a series of walled gardens. >> So, to JD's point on the procurement data and pricing data, I have been involved in some of those kind of operations, and I think it's financial espionage that they're looking at, financial security, trying to figure out a way to track down capital flows and what was purchased. I hope that was it in your client's case, but I think it's trying to figure out where the money flow is going, more so than trying to understand the pricing data from competitive purposes. If it is the latter, where they're stealing the competitive information on pricing, and data's getting back to a competitor, that is definitely a no-no! But if it's really to figure out where the money trail went, which is what I think most of those financial analysts are doing, especially in the CIA, or in the FBI, that's really what that probably would have been. >> Yeah, I don't think that the CIA is selling the data to your competitors, as a company, to Microsoft or to Google, they're not selling it to each other, right? They're not giving it to each other, right? So, I think the one big problem I studied with FISA is that they get the data, but how long they can keep the data and how long they can mine the data. So, they should use that data as exhaust. Means like, they use it and just throw it away. But they don't, they keep mining that data at a later date, and FISA is only good for five years. Like, I learned that every five years we revisit that, and that's what happened this time, that we renewed it for six years this time, not five, for some reason one extra year. So, I think we revisit all these laws -- >> Could be an election cycle. >> Huh? >> Could be an election cycle maybe. (laughs) >> Yes, exactly! So, we revisit all these laws with Congress and Senate here periodically just to make sure that they are up to date, and that they're not infringing on human rights, or citizen's rights, or stuff like that. >> When you say you update to check they're not conflicting with anything, did you not support that it was conflicting with Privacy Shield and some of the promises you made to Europeans? At what point did that fail to become obvious? >> It does, because there's heightened urgency. Every big incident happens, 9/11 caused a lot of new sort of like regulations and laws coming into the picture. And then the last time, that the Russian interference in our election, that created some sort of heightened urgency. Like, "We need to do something guys here, like if some country can topple our elections, right, that's not acceptable." So, yeah -- >> And what was it that your allies did that caused you to spy on us and to downgrade our privacy? >> I'm not expert on the political systems here. I think our allies are, okay, loose on their, okay, I call it village politics. Like, world is like a village. Like it's so only few countries, it's not millions of countries, right? That's how I see it, a city versus a village, and that's how I see the countries, like village politics. Like there are two camps, like there's Russia and China camp, and then there's U.S. camp on the other side. Like, we used to have Russia and U.S., two forces, big guys, and they managed the whole world balance somehow, right? Like some people with one camp, the other with the other, right? That's how they used to work. Now that Russia has gone, hold on, let me finish, let me finish. >> Yeah. >> Russia's gone, there's this void, right? And China's trying to fill the void. Chinese are not like, acting diplomatic enough to fill that void, and there's, it's all like we're on this imbalance, I believe. And then Russia becomes a rogue actor kind of in a way, that's how I see it, and then they are funding all these bad people. You see that all along, like what happened in the Middle East and all that stuff. >> You said there are different camps. We thought we were in your camp! We didn't expect to be spied on by you, or to have our rights downgraded by you. >> No, I understand but -- >> We thought we were on your side! >> But, but you have to guys to trust us also, like in a village. Let me tell you, I come from a village, that's why I use the villager as a hashtag in my twitter also. Like in village, there are usually one or two families which keep the village intact, that's our roles. >> Right. >> Like, I don't know if you have lived in a village or not -- >> Well, Bill, you're making some great statements. Where's the evidence on the surveillance, where can people find more information on this? Can you share? >> I think there's plenty of evidence, and I can send some stuff on, and I'm a little bit shocked given the awareness of the FISA Act, the Cloud Act, the fact that these things are in existence and they're not exactly unknown. And many people have been complaining about them for years. I mean, we've had Safe Harbor overturned, we've had Privacy Shield overturned, and these weren't just on a whim! >> Yeah, what does JD have in his hand? I want to know. >> The Edward Snowden book! (laughs) >> By Edward Snowden, which gives you plenty. But it wasn't enough, and it's something that we have to keep in mind, because we can always claim that whatever Edward Snowden wrote, that he made it up. Every publication by Edward Snowden is an avalanche of technical confirmation. One of the things that he described about the Cisco switches, which Bill prefers to quote every time, which is a proven case, there were bundles of researchers saying, "I told you guys!" Nobody paid attention to those researchers, and Edward Snowden was smart enough to get the mass media representation in there. But there's one thing, a question I have for Sabjeet, because in the two parties strategy, it is interesting that you always take out the European Union as part. And the European Union is a big player, and it will continue to grow. It has a growing amount of trade agreements with a growing amount of countries, and I still hope, and I think think Bill -- >> Well, I think the number of countries is reducing, you've just lost one! >> Only one. (Bill laughing loudly) Actually though, those are four countries under one kingdom, but that's another point. (Bill chortling heartily) >> Guys, final topic, 5G impact, 'cause you mentioned Cisco, couldn't help think about -- >> Let me finish please my question, John. >> Okay, go ahead. How would you the United States respond if the European Union would now legalize to spy on everybody and every company, and every governmental institution within the United States and say, "No, no, it's our privilege, we need that." How would the United States respond? >> You can try that and see economically what happens to you, that's how the village politics work, you have to listen to the mightier than you, and we are economically mightier, that's the fact. Actually it's hard to swallow fact for, even for anybody else. >> If you guys built a great app, I would use it, and surveil all you want. >> Yeah, but so this is going to be driven by the economics. (John laughing) But the -- >> That's exactly what John said. >> This is going to be driven by the economics here. The big U.S. cloud firms are got to find this ruling enormously difficult for them, and they are inevitably going to lobby for a level of reform. And I think a level of a reform is needed. Nobody on your side is actually arguing very vociferously that the Cloud Act and the discrimination against Europeans is actually a particularly good idea. The problem is that once you've done the reform, are we going to believe you when you say, "Oh, it's all good now, we've stopped it!" Because with Crypto AG scandal in Switzerland you weren't exactly honest about what you were doing. With the FISA courts, so I mean FISA secret courts, the secret warrants, how do we know and what proof can we have that you've stopped doing all these bad things? And I think one of the challenges, A, going to be the reform, and then B, got to be able to show that you actually got your act together and you're now clean. And until you can solve those two, many of your big tech companies are going to be at a competitive disadvantage, and they're going to be screaming for this reform. >> Well, I think that, you know, General Mattis said in his book about Trump and the United states, is that you need alliances, and I think your point about trust and executing together, without alliances, it really doesn't work. So, unless there's some sort of real alliance, (laughs) like understanding that there's going to be some teamwork here, (Bill laughing) I don't think it's going to go anywhere. So, otherwise it'll continue to be siloed and network based, right? So to the village point, if TikTok can become a massively successful app, and they're surveilling, so and then we have to decide that we're going to put up with that, I mean, that's not my decision, but that's what's goin' on here. It's like, what is TikTok, is it good or bad? Amazon sent out an email, and they've retracted it, that's because it went public. I guarantee you that they're talkin' about that at Amazon, like, "Why would we want infiltration by the Chinese?" And I'm speculating, I have no data, I'm just saying, you know. They email those out, then they pull it back, "Oh, we didn't mean to send that." Really, hmm? (laughs) You know, so this kind of -- >> But the TRA Balin's good, you always want to get TRA Balin out there. >> Yeah, exactly. There's some spying going on! So, this is the reality. >> So, John, you were talking about 5G, and I think you know, the role of 5G, you know, the battle between Cisco and Huawei, you just have to look at it this way, would you rather have the U.S. spy on you, or would you rather have China? And that's really your binary choice at this moment. And you know both is happening, and so the question is which one is better. Like, the one that you're in alliance with? The one that you're not in alliance with, the one that wants to bury you, and decimate your country, and steal all your secrets and then commercialize 'em? Or the one kind of does it, but doesn't really do it explicitly? So, you've got to choose. (laughs) >> It's supposed to be -- >> Or you can say no, we're going to create our own standard for 5G and kick both out, that's an option. >> It's probably not as straightforward a question as, or an answer to that question as you say, because if we were to fast-forward 50 years, I would argue that China is going to be the largest trading nation in the world. I believe that China is going to have the upper hand on many of these technologies, and therefore why would we not want to use some of their innovation, some of their technology, why would we not actually be more orientated around trading with them than we might be with the U.S.? I think the U.S. is throwing its weight around at this moment in time, but if we were to fast-forward I think looking in the longterm, if I had to put my money on Huawei or some of its competitors, I think given its level of investments in research and whatever, I think the better longterm bet is Huawei. >> No, no, actually you guys need to pick a camp. It's a village again. You have to pick a camp, you can't be with both guys. >> Global village. >> Oh, right, so we have to go with the guys that have been spying on us? >> How do you know the Chinese haven't been spying on you? (Ray and John laughing loudly) >> I think I'm very happy, you find a backdoor in the Huawei equipment and you show it to us, we'll take them to task on it. But don't start bullying us into making decisions based on what-ifs. >> I don't think I'm, I'm not qualified to represent the U.S., but what we would want to say is that if you look at the dynamics of what's going on, China, we've been studying that as well in terms of the geopolitical aspects of what happens in technology, they have to do what they're doing right now. Because in 20 years our population dynamics go like this, right? You've got the one child policy, and they won't have the ability to go out and fight for those same resources where they are, so what they're doing makes sense from a country perspective and country policy. But I think they're going to look like Japan in 20 years, right? Because the xenophobia, the lack of immigration, the lack of inside stuff coming in, an aging population. I mean, those are all factors that slow down your economy in the long run. And the lack of bringing new people in for ideas, I mean that's part of it, they're a closed system. And so I think the longterm dynamics of every closed system is that they tend to fail versus open systems. So, I'm not sure, they may have better technology along the way. But I think a lot of us are probably in the camp now thinking that we're not going to aid and abet them, in that sense to get there. >> You're competing a country with a company, I didn't say that China had necessarily everything rosy in its future, it'll be a bigger economy, and it'll be a bigger trading partner, but it's got its problems, the one child policy and the repercussions of that. But that is not one of the things, Huawei, I think Huawei's a massively unlimited company that has got a massive lead, certainly in 5G technology, and may continue to maintain a lead into 6G and beyond. >> Oh yeah, yeah, Huawei's done a great job on the 5G side, and I don't disagree with that. And they're ahead in many aspects compared to the U.S., and they're already working on the 6G technologies as well, and the roll outs have been further ahead. So, that's definitely -- >> And they've got a great backer too, the financer, the country China. Okay guys, (Ray laughing) let's wrap up the segment. Thanks for everyone's time. Final thoughts, just each of you on this core issue of the news that we discussed and the impact that was the conversation. What's the core issue? What should people think about? What's your solution? What's your opinion of how this plays out? Just final statements. We'll start with Bill, Ray, Sarbjeet and JD. >> All I'm going to ask you is stop spying on us, treat us equally, treat us like the allies that we are, and then I think we've got to a bright future together! >> John: Ray? >> I would say that Bill's right in that aspect in terms of how security agreements work, I think that we've needed to be more explicit about those. I can't represent the U.S. government, but I think the larger issue is really how do we view privacy, and how we do trade offs between security and convenience, and you know, what's required for personalization, and companies that are built on data. So, the sooner we get to those kind of rules, an understanding of what's possible, what's a consensus between different countries and companies, I think the better off we will all be a society. >> Yeah, I believe the most important kind of independence is the economic independence. Like, economically sound parties dictate the terms, that's what U.S. is doing. And the smaller countries have to live with it or pick the other bigger player, number two in this case is China. John said earlier, I think, also what JD said is the fine balance between national security and the privacy. You can't have, you have to strike that balance, because the rogue actors are sitting in your country, and across the boundaries of the countries, right? So, it's not that FISA is being fought by Europeans only. Our internal people are fighting that too, like how when you are mining our data, like what are you using it for? Like, I get concerned too, when you can use that data against me, that you have some data against me, right? So, I think it's the fine balance between security and privacy, we have to strike that. Awesome. JD? I'll include a little fake check, fact check, at the moment China is the largest economy, the European Union is the second largest economy, followed directly by the USA, it's a very small difference, and I recommend that these two big parties behind the largest economy start to collaborate and start to do that eye to eye, because if you want to balance the economical and manufacturing power of China, you cannot do that as being number two and number three. You have to join up forces, and that starts with sticking with the treaties that you signed, and that has not happened in the past, almost four years. So, let's go back to the table, let's work on rules where from both sides the rights and the privileges are properly reflected, and then do the most important thing, stick to them! >> Yep, I think that's awesome. I think I would say that these young kids in high school and college, they need to come up and solve the problems, this is going to be a new generational shift where the geopolitical landscape will change radically, you mentioned the top three there. And new alliances, new kinds of re-imagination has to be there, and from America's standpoint I'll just say that I'd like to see lawmakers have, instead of a LinkedIn handle, a GitHub handle. You know, when they all go out on campaign talk about what code they've written. So, I think having a technical background or some sort of knowledge of computer science and how the internet works with sociology and societal impact will be critical for our citizenships to advance. So, you know rather a lawyer, right so? (laughs) Maybe get some law involved in that, I mean the critical lawyers, but today most people are lawyers in American politics, but show me a GitHub handle of that congressman, that senator, I'd be impressed. So, that's what we need. >> Thanks, good night! >> Ray, you want to say something? >> I wanted to say something, because I thought the U.S. economy was 21 trillion, the EU is sittin' at about 16, and China was sitting about 14, but okay, I don't know. >> You need to do math man. >> Hey, we went over our 30 minutes time, we can do an hour with you guys, so you're still good. (laughs) >> Can't take anymore. >> No go on, get in there, go at it when you've got something to say. >> I don't think it's immaterial the exact size of the economy, I think that we're better off collaborating on even and fair terms, we are -- >> We're all better off collaborating. >> Yeah. >> Gentlemen -- >> But the collaboration has to be on equal and fair terms, you know. (laughs) >> How do you define fair, good point. Fair and balanced, you know, we've got the new -- >> We did define fair, we struck a treaty! We absolutely defined it, absolutely! >> Yeah. >> And then one side didn't stick to it. >> We will leave it right there, and we'll follow up (Bill laughing) in a later conversation. Gentlemen, you guys are good. Thank you. (relaxing electronic music)

>> Narrator: Live from San Francisco. It's the theCUBE covering RSA Conference 2020 San Francisco, brought to you by SiliconAngle Media. >> Alright, welcome to theCUBE coverage here at RSA Conference in San Francisco and Moscone Halls, theCUBE. I'm John Furrier, the host of theCUBE, in a cyber security is all about encryption data and also security. We have a very hot startup here, that amazing guest, Dr. Ellison Anne Williams, CEO and Founder of Enveil just recently secured a $10 million Series A Funding really attacking a real problem around encryption and use. Again, data ,security, analytics, making it all secure is great. Allison, and thanks for coming on. Appreciate your time. >> Thanks for having me. >> So congratulations on the funding before we get started into the interview talking about the hard news, you guys that are around the funding. How long have you guys been around? What's the funding going to do? What are you guys doing? >> Yeah, so we're about three and a half years old as a company. We just announced our Series A close last week. So that was led by C5. And their new US Funds The Impact Fund and participating. Other partners included folks like MasterCard, Capital One Ventures, Bloomberg, Beta 1843, etc. >> So some names jumped in C5 led the round. >> For sure. >> How did this get started? What was the idea behind this three years you've been actually doing some work? Are you going to production? Is it R&D? Is it in market? Give us a quick update on the status of product and solution? >> Yeah, so full production. For production of the product. We're in fact in 2.0 of the release. And so we got our start inside of the National Security Agency, where I spent the majority of my career. And we developed some breakthroughs in an area of technology called homomorphic encryption, that allows you to perform computations into the encrypted domain as if they were in the unencrypted world. So the tech had never existed in a practical capacity. So we knew that bringing seeds of that technology out of the intelligence community and using it to seed really and start the company, we would be creating a new commercial market. >> So look at this, right? So you're at the NSA, >> Correct >> Your practitioner, they're doing a lot of work in this area, pioneering a new capability. And did the NSA spin it out did they fund it was the seed capital there or did you guys bootstrap it >> No. So our seed round was done by an entity called Data Tribe. So designed to take teams in technologies that were coming out of the IC that wanted to commercialize to do so. So we took seed funding from them. And then we were actually one of the youngest company ever to be in the RSA Innovation Sandbox here in 2017, to be one of the winners and that's where the conversation really started to change around this technology called homomorphic encryption, the market category space called securing data in use and what that meant. And so from there, we started running the initial version of a product out in the commercial world and we encountered two universal reaction. One that we were expecting and one that we weren't. And the one that we were expecting is that people said, "holy cow, this actually works". Because what we say we do keeping everything encrypted during processing. Sounds pretty impossible. It's not just the math. And then the second reaction that we encountered that we weren't expecting is those initial early adopters turned around and said to us, "can we strategically invest in you?" So our second round of funding was actually a Strategic Round where folks like Bloomberg beta,Thomson Reuters, USA and Incue Towel came into the company. >> That's Pre Series A >> Pre Series A >> So you still moving along, if a sandbox, you get some visibility >> Correct. >> Then were the products working on my god is you know, working. That's great. So I want to get into before I get into some of the overhead involved in traditionally its encryption there always has been that overhead tax. And you guys seem to solve that. But can you describe first data-at-rest versus data-in-motion and data-in-user. data at rest, as means not doing anything but >> Yeah, >> In flight or in you so they the same, is there a difference? Can you just tell us the difference of someone this can be kind of confusing. >> So it's helpful to think of data security in three parts that we call the triad. So securing data at rest on the file system and the database, etc. This would be your more traditional in database encryption, or file based encryption also includes things like access control. The second area, the data security triad is securing data- in- transit when it's moving around through the network. So securing data at rest and in transit. Very well solution. A lot of big name companies do that today, folks like Talus and we partner with them, Talus, Gemalto, etc. Now, the third portion of the data security triad is what happens to that data when you go use or process it in some way when it becomes most valuable. And that's where we focus. So as a company, we secure data-in-use when it's being used or processed. So what does that mean? It means we can do things like take searches or analytics encrypt them, and then go run them without ever decrypting them at any point during processing. So like I said, this represents a new commercial market, where we're seeing it manifest most often right now are in things like enabling secure data sharing, and collaboration, or enabling secure data monetization, because its privacy preserving and privacy enabling as a capability. >> And so that I get this right, the problem that you solved is that during the end use parts of the triad, it had to be decrypted first and then encrypted again, and that was the vulnerability area. Look, can you describe kind of like, the main problem that you guys saw was that-- >> So think more about, if you've got data and you want to give me access to it, I'm a completely different entity. And the way that you're going to give me access to it is allowing me to run a search over your data holdings. We see this quite a bit in between two banks in the areas of anti-money laundering or financial crime. So if I'm going to go run a search in your environment, say I'm going to look for someone that's an EU resident. Well, their personal information is covered under GDPR. Right? So if I go run that search in your environment, just because I'm coming to look for a certain individual doesn't mean you actually know anything about that. And so if you don't, and you have no data on them whatsoever, I've just introduced a new variable into your environment that you now have to account for, From a risk and liability perspective under something like GDPR. Whereas if you use us, we could take that search encrypt it within our walls, send it out to you and you could process it in its encrypted state. And because it's never decrypted during processing, there's no risk to you of any increased liability because that PII or that EU resident identifier is never introduced into your space. >> So the operating side of the business where there's compliance and risk management are going to love this, >> For sure. >> Is that really where the action is? >> Yes, compliance risk privacy. >> Alright, so get a little nerdy action on this one. So encryption has always been an awesome thing depending on who you talk to you, obviously, but he's always been a tax associate with the overhead processing power. He said, there's math involved. How does homeomorphic work? Does it have problems with performance? Is that a problem? Or if not, how do you address that? Where does it? I might say, well, I get it. But what's the tax for me? Or is your tax? >> Encryption is never free. I always tell people that. So there always is a little bit of latency associated with being able to do anything in an encrypted capacity, whether that's at rest at in transit or in use. Now, specifically with homomorphic encryption. It's not a new area of encryption. It's been around 30 or so years, and it had often been considered to be the holy grail of encryption for exactly the reasons we've already talked about. Doing things like taking searches or analytics and encrypting them, running them without ever decrypting anything opens up a world of different types of use cases across verticals and-- >> Give those use case examples. What would be some that would be low hanging fruit. And it would be much more higher level. >> Some of the things that we're seeing today under that umbrella of secure data sharing and collaboration, specifically inside of financial services, for use cases around anti-money laundering and financial crimes so, allowing two banks to be able to securely collaborate with with each other, along the lines of the example that I gave you just a second ago, and then also for large multinational banks to do so across jurisdictions in which they operate that have different privacy and secrecy regulations associated with them. >> Awesome. Well, Ellison, and I want to ask you about your experience at the NSA. And now as an entrepreneur, obviously, you have some, you know, pedigree at the NSA, really, you know, congratulations. It's going to be smart to work there, I guess. Secrets, you know, >> You absolutely do. >> Brains brain surgeon rocket scientist, so you get a lot of good stuff. But now that you're on the commercial space, it's been a conversation around how public and commercial are really trying to work together a lot as innovations are happening on both sides of the fence there. >> Yeah. >> Then the ICC and the Intelligence Community as well as commercial. Yeah, you're an entrepreneur, you got to go make money, you got shareholders down, you got investors? What's the collaboration look like? How does the world does it change for you? Is it the same? What's the vibe in DC these days around the balance between collaboration or is there? >> Well, we've seen a great example of this recently in that anti-money laundering financial crime use case. So the FCA and the Financial Conduct Authority out of the UK, so public entity sponsored a whole event called a tech spread in which they brought the banks together the private entities together with the startup companies, so your early emerging innovative capabilities, along with the public entities, like your privacy regulators, etc, and had us all work together to develop really innovative solutions to real problems within the banks. In the in the context of this text spread. We ended up winning the know your customer customer due diligence side of the text brand and then at the same time that us held an equivalent event in DC, where FinCEN took the lead, bringing in again, the banks, the private companies, etc, to all collaborate around this one problem. So I think that's a great example of when your public and your private and your private small and your private big is in the financial services institutions start to work together, we can really make breakthroughs-- >> So you see a lot happening >> We see a lot happening. >> The encryption solution actually helped that because it makes sense. Now you have the sharing the encryption. >> Yeah. >> Does that help with some of the privacy and interactions? >> It breaks through those barriers? Because if we were two banks, we can't necessarily openly, freely share all the information. But if I can ask you a question and do so in a secure and private capacity, still respecting all the access controls that you've put in place over your own data, then it allows that collaboration to occur, whereas otherwise I really couldn't in an efficient capacity. >> Okay, so here's the curveball question for you. So anybody Startup Series today, but you really got advanced Series A, you got a lot of funding multiple years of operation. If I asked you what's the impact that you're going to have on the world? What would you say to that, >> Over creating a whole new market, completely changing the paradigm about where and how you can use data for business purposes. And in terms of how much funding we have, we have, we've had a few rounds, but we only have 15 million into the company. So to be three and a half years old to see this new market emerging and being created with with only $15 million. It's really pretty impressive. >> Yeah, it's got a lot of growth and keep the ownership with the employees and the founders. >> It's always good, but being bootstrap is harder than it looks, isn't it? >> Yeah. >> Or how about society at large impact. You know, we're living global society these days and get all kinds of challenges. You see anything else in the future for your vision of impact. >> So securing data and your supplies horizontally across verticals. So far we've been focused mainly on financial services. But I think healthcare is a great vertical to move out in. And I think there are a lot of global challenges with healthcare and the more collaborative that we could be from a healthcare standpoint with our data. And I think our capabilities enable that to be possible. And still respecting all the privacy regulations and restrictions. I think that's a whole new world of possibility as well. >> And your secret sauce is what math? What's that? What's the secret sauce, >> Math, Math and grit. >> Alright, so thanks for sharing the insights. Give a quick plug for the company. What are you guys looking to do? Honestly, $10 million in funding priorities for you and the team? What do you guys live in to do? >> So priorities for us? privacy is a global issue now. So we are expanding globally. And you'll be hearing more about that very shortly. We also have new product lines that are going to be coming out enabling people to do more advanced decisioning in a completely secure and private capacity. >> And hiring office locations DC. >> Yes. So our headquarters is in DC, but we're based on over the world, so we're hiring, check out our web page. We're hiring for all kinds of roles from engineering to business functionality >> And virtual is okay virtual hires school >> Virtual hires is great. We're looking for awesome people no matter where they are. >> You know, DC but primary. Okay, so great to have you gone. Congratulations for one, the financing and then three years of bootstrapping and making it happen. Awesome. >> Thank you. >> Thank you for coming ,appreciate it. So keep coming to your RSA conference in Moscone. I'm John Furrier. Thanks for watching more after this short break (pop music playing)

>> Announcer: Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE, covering AWS re:Invent 2019. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services and Intel, along with its ecosystem partners. >> Well, welcome back here on theCUBE. We're at AWS re:Invent 2019. And every once in a while, we have one of these fascinating interviews that really reaches beyond the technological prowess that's available today into almost the human fascination of work, and that's what we have here. >> Big story. >> Dave Vellante, John Walls. We're joined by Sebastien De Halleux, who is the CEO, oh, COO, rather, of a company called Saildrone, and what they feature is wind-powered flying robots, and they've undertaken a project called Seabed 2030 that will encompass mapping the world's oceans. 85% of the oceans, we know nothing about. >> That's right. >> And, yeah, they're going to combine this tremendous technology with 100 of these flying drones. So, Sebastien, we're really excited to have you here. Thanks for joining us, and wow, what a project! So, just paint the high-level view, I mean, not to have a pun here, but just to share with folks at home a little bit about the motivation of this and what gap you're going to fill. Then we'll get into the technology. >> So I think, you know, the first question is to realize the role of oceans and how they affect you on land and all of us. Half the air you breathe, half the oxygen you breathe, comes from the ocean. They cover 70% of the planet and drive global weather, they drive all the precipitation. They also drive sea-level rise, which affects coastal communities. They provide 20% of the protein, all the fish that we all eat. So, you know, it's a very, very important survival system for all of us on land. The problem is, it's also a very hostile environment, very dangerous, and so, we know very little about it. Because we study it with a few ships and buoys, but that's really a few hundred data points to cover 70% of the planet, whereas on land, we have billions of data points that are connected. So, that's why we're trying to fundamentally address, is deploying sensors in the ocean using autonomous surface vehicles, what we call Saildrones, which are essentially, think of them as autonomous sailboats, seven meters, 23 feet, long, bright orange thing with a five-meter-tall sail, which is harnessing wind power for propulsion and solar power for the onboard electronics. >> And then you've got sonar attached to that, that is what's going to do the-- >> The mapping itself. >> The underwater mapping, right, so you can look for marine life, you can look for geographical or topographical anomalies and whatever, and so, it's a multidimensional look using this sonar that, I think, is powered down to seven kilometers, right? >> That's right. >> So that's how far down, 20,000, 30,000 feet. >> That's right. >> So you're going to be able to derive information from it. >> You essentially describe it as, you're painting the ocean with sound. >> That's absolutely right, whereas if you wanted to take a picture of land, you could fly an airplane or satellite and take a photograph, light does not travel through water that well. And so, we use sound instead of light, but the same principle, which is that we send those pulses of sound down, and the echo we listen to from the seabed, or from fish or critters in the water column. And so, yes, we paint the ocean with sound, and then we use machine learning to transform this data into biomass, statistical biomass distribution, for example, or a 3-D surface of the seabed, after processing the sound data. >> And you have to discern between different objects, right? I mean, you (laughs) showed one picture of a seal sunbathing on one of these drones, right? Or is there a boat on the horizon? How do you do that? >> It's an extremely hard problem, because if a human is at sea looking through binoculars at things on the horizon, you're going to become seasick, right? So imagine the state of the algorithm trying to process this in a frame where every pixel is moving all the time, unlike on land, where you have at least a static frame of reference. So it's a very hard problem, and one of the first problems is training data. Where do you get all this training data? So our drones, hundreds of drones, take millions of pictures of the ocean, and then we train the algorithm using either labeled datasets or other source of data, and we teach them what is a boat on the horizon, what does that look like, and what's a bird, what's a seal. And then, in some hard cases, when you have a whale under the Saildrone or a seal lying on it, we have a lot of fun pushing it on our blog and asking the experts to really classify it. (Dave and John laugh) You know, what are we looking at? Well, you see a fin, is it a shark? Is it a dolphin? Is it a whale? It can get quite heated. >> I hope it's a dolphin, I hope it's a dolphin. (Sebastien laughs) All right, so, I want to get into the technology, but I'm just thinking about the practical operation of this. They're wind-powered. >> Sebastien: Yes. >> But they just can't go on forever, right? I mean, they have to touch down at some point somehow, right? They're going to hit water. How do you keep this operational when you've got weather situations, you've got some days maybe where wind doesn't exist or there's not enough there to keep it upright, keep it operational, I mean. >> It's a very good question. I mean, the ocean is often described as one of the toughest environments in the universe, because you have corrosive force, you have pounding waves, you have things you can hit, marine mammals, whales who can breach on you, so it's a very hard problem. They leave the dock on their own, and they sail around the world for up to a year, and then they come back to the same dock on their own. And they harvest all of their energy from the environment. So, wind for propulsion, and there's always wind on the ocean. As soon as you have a bit of pressure differential, you have wind. And then, sunlight and hydrogeneration for electrical power, which powers the onboard computers, the sensors, and the satellite link that tells it to get back to shore. >> It's all solar-powered. >> Exactly, so, no fuel, no engine, no carbon emission, so, a very environmentally friendly solution. >> So, what is actually on them, well, first of all, you couldn't really do this without the cloud, right? >> That's right. >> And maybe you could describe why that is. And I'm also interested in, I mean, it's the classic edge use case. >> Sure, the ultimate edge. >> I mean, if you haven't seen Sebastien's keynote, you got to. There's just so many keynotes here, but it should be on your top 10 list, so Google Saildrone keynote AWS re:Invent 2019 and watch it. It was really outstanding. >> Sebastien: Thank you. >> But help us understand, what's going on in the cloud and what's going on on the drone? >> So it is really an AWS-powered solution, because the drones themselves have a low level of autonomy. All they know how to do is to go from Point A to Point B and take wave, current, and wind into consideration. All the intelligence happens shoreside. So, shoreside, we crunch huge amounts of datasets, numerical models that describe pressure field and wind and wave and current and sea ice and all kinds of different parameters, we crunch this, we optimize the route, and we send those instructions via satellite to the vehicle, who then follow the mission plan. And then, the vehicle collects data, one data point every second, from about 25 different sensors, and sends this data back via satellite to the cloud, where it's crunched into products that include weather forecasts. So you and I can download the Saildrone Forecast app and look at a very beautiful picture of the entire Earth, and look at, where is it going to rain? Where is it going to wind? Should I have my barbecue outside? Or, is a hurricane coming down towards my region? So, this entire chain, from the drone to the transmission to the compute to the packaging to the delivery in near real time into your hand, is all done using AWS cloud. >> Yeah, so, I mean, a lot of people use autonomous vehicles as the example and say, "Oh, yeah, that could never be done in the cloud," but I think we forget sometimes, there are thousands of use cases where you don't need, necessarily, that real-time adjustment like you do in an autonomous vehicle. So, your developers are essentially interacting with the cloud and enabling this, right? >> Absolutely, so we are, as I said, really, the foundation for our data infrastructure is AWS, and not just for the data storage, we're talking about petabytes and petabytes of data if you think about mapping 70% of the world, right, but also on the compute side. So, running weather models, for example, requires supercomputers, and this is how it's traditionally done, so our team has taken those supercomputing jobs and brought them into AWS using all the new instances like C3 and C5 and P3, and all this high-performance computing, you can now move from old legacy supercomputers into the cloud, and so, that really is an amazing new capability that did not exist even five years ago. >> Sebastien, did you ever foresee the day where you might actually have some compute locally, or even some persistent-- >> So on the small Saildrones, which is the majority of our fleet, which is going to number a thousand Saildrones at scale, there is very little compute, because the amount of electrical power available is quite low. >> Is not available, yeah. >> However, on the larger Saildrone, which we announced here, which is called the Surveyor-- >> How big, 72 feet, yeah. >> Which is a 72-foot machine, so this has a significant amount of compute, and it has onboard machine learning and onboard AI that processes all the sonar data to send the finished product back to shore. Because, you know, no matter how fast satellite connectivity's evolving, it's always a small pipe, so you cannot send all the raw data for processing on shore. >> I just want to make a comment. So people often ask Andy Jassy, "You say you're misunderstood. "What are you most misunderstood about?" I think this is one of the most misunderstood things about AWS. The edge is going to be won by developers, and Amazon is basically taking its platform and allowing it to go to the edge, and it's going to be a programmable edge, and that's why I really love the strategy. But please, yeah. >> Yeah, no, we talked about this project, you know, Seabed 2030, but you talked about weather forecasts, and whatever. Your client base already, NASA, NOAA, research universities, you've got an international portfolio. So, you've got a whole (laughs) business operation going. I don't want to give people at home the idea that this is the only thing you have going on. You have ongoing data collection and distribution going on, so you're meeting needs currently, right? >> That's right, we supply governments around the world, from the U.S. government, of course, to Canada, Mexico, Japan, Australia, the European Union, well, you name it. If you've got a coastline, you've got a data problem. And no government has ever come and told us, "We have enough ships or enough data on the oceans." And so, we are really servicing a global user base by using this infrastructure that can provide you a thousand times more data and a whole lot of new insights that can be derived from that data. >> And what's your governance structure? Are you a commercial enterprise, or are you going-- >> We are a commercial enterprise, yes, we're based in San Francisco. We're backed by long-term impact venture capital. We've been revenue-generating since day one, and we just offer a tremendous amount of value for a much cheaper cost. >> You used the word impact. There's a lot of impact funds that are sort of emerging now. At the macro, talk about the global impact that you guys hope to have, and the outcome that you'd like to see. >> Yeah, you know, our planetary data is all about understanding things that impact humanity, right? Right now, here at home, you might have a decent weather forecast, but if you go to another continent, would that still be the case? Is there an excuse for us to not address this disparity of information and data? And so, by running global weather model and getting global datasets, you can really deliver an impact at very low marginal cost for the entire global population with the same level of quality that we enjoy here at home. That's really an amazing kind of impact, because, you know, rich and developed nations can afford very sophisticated infrastructure to count your fish and establish fishing quarters, but other countries cannot. Now, they can, and this is part of delivering the impact, it's leveraging this amazing infrastructure and putting it in the hands, with a simple product, of someone whether they live on the islands of Tuvalu or in Chicago. >> You know, it's part of our mission to share stories like this, that's how we have impact, so thank you so much for-- >> I mean, we-- >> The work that you're doing and coming on theCUBE. >> This is cool. We talk about data lakes, this is data oceans. (Dave laughs) This is big-time stuff, like, serious storage. All right, Sebastien, thank you. Again, great story, and we wish you all the best and look forward to following this for the next 10 years or so. Seabed 2030, check it out. Back with more here from AWS re:Invent 2019. You're watching us live, right here on theCUBE. (upbeat pop music)

[Music] Andre one of the things that have come up is your relation with Russia as we talked about so I have to ask you a direct question do you to work with sanctioned Russian entities or Russian companies shown we and c5 we do not work with any company that's sanctioned from any country including Russia and the same applies to me we take sanctions very very seriously the one thing you don't mess with is US sanctions which has application worldwide and so you always have to stay absolutely on the right side of the law when it comes to sanctions so nothing nothing that's something that's connection nets are trying to make they're also the other connection is a guy named Victor Vail Selberg Viktor Vekselberg Vekselberg to go with the Russian names as people know what is your relationship with Viktor Vekselberg so victim Viktor Vekselberg is a is a very well known Russian businessman he's perhaps one of the best known Russian businessman in the West because he also lived in the US for a period of time it's a very well-known personality in in in Europe he's a donor for example to the Clinton Foundation and he has aggregated the largest collection of Faberge eggs in the world as part of national Russian treasure so he's a very well known business personality and of course during the course of my career which has focused heavily on also doing investigations on Russian related issues I have come across Viktor Vekselberg and I've had the opportunity to meet with him and so I know him as a as a business leader but c5 has no relationship with Viktor Vekselberg and we've never accepted any investment from him we've never asked him for an investment and our firm a venture capital firm has no ties to Viktor Vekselberg so you've worked had a relationship at some point in your career but no I wouldn't on a daily basis you don't have a deep relationship can you explain how deep that relationship is what were the interactions you had with him so clarify that point so so I know Viktor Vekselberg and I've met him on more than one occasion in different settings and as I shared with you I served on the board of a South African mining company which is black owned for a period of a year and which Renova had a minority investment alongside an Australian company called South 32 and that's the extent of the contact and exposure I've had to so casual business run-ins and interactions not like again that's correct deep joint ventures are very kind of okay let's get back to c5 for a minute cause I want to ask you it but just do just a circle just one last issue and Viktor Vekselberg Viktor Vekselberg is the chairman of scope over the Russian technology innovation park that we discussed and he became the chairman under the presidency of President Dmitry Medvedev during the time when Hillary Clinton was doing a reset on Russian relations and during that time so vekselberg have built up very effective relationships with all of the or many of the leading big US technology companies and today you can find the roster of those partners the list of those partners on the scope of our website and those nuclear drove that yes Victor drove that Victor drove that during during in the Clinton Secretary of this started the scope of our project started during the the Medvedev presidency and in the period 2010-2011 you'll find many photographs of mr. vekselberg signing partnership agreements with very well known technology companies for Skolkovo and most of those companies still in one way or another remain involved in the Skolkovo project this has been the feature the article so there are I think and I've read all the other places where they wanted to make this decision Valley of Russia correct there's a lot of Russian programmers who work for American companies I know a few of them that do so there's technology they get great programmers in Russia but certainly they have technology so oracles they're ibm's they're cisco say we talked about earlier there is US presence there are you do you have a presence there and does Amazon Web service have a presence on do you see five it and that's knowing I was alright it's well it's a warning in the wrong oh sorry about that what's the Skog Obama's called spoke over so Andres Kokomo's this has been well report it's the Silicon Valley of Russia and so a lot of American companies they're IBM Oracle Cisco you mentioned earlier I can imagine it makes sense they a lot of recruiting little labs going on we see people hire Russian engineers all the time you know c5 have a presence there and does AWS have a presence there and do you work together in a TBS in that area explain that relationship certainly c5 Amazon individually or you can't speak for Amazon but let's see if I've have there and do you work with Amazon in any way there c-5m there's no work in Russia and neither does any of our portfolio companies c5 has no relationship with the Skolkovo Technology Park and as I said the parties for this spoke of a Technology Park is a matter of record is only website anyone can take a look at it and our name is not amongst those partners and I think this was this is an issue which I which I fault the BBC report on because if the BBC report was fair and accurate they would have disclosed the fact that there's a long list of partners with a scope of our project very well known companies many of them competitors in the Jedi process but that was not the case the BBC programme in a very misleading and deceptive way created the impression that for some reason somehow c5 was involved in Skolkovo without disclosing the fact that many other companies are involved they and of course we are not involved and your only relationship with Declan Berg Viktor Vekselberg was through the c5 raiser bid three c5 no no Viktor Vekselberg was never involved in c5 raiser Petco we had Vladimir Kuznetsov as a man not as a minority investor day and when we diligence him one of our key findings was that he was acting in independent capacity and he was investing his own money as a you national aniseh Swiss resident so you if you've had no business dealings with Viktor Vekselberg other than casual working c-5 has had no business dealings with with Viktor Vekselberg in a in a personal capacity earlier before the onset of sanctions I served on the board of a black-owned South African mining company and which Renault bombs the Vekselberg company as a minority investment alongside an Australian company called South 32 and my motivation for doing so was to support African entrepreneurship because this was one of the first black owned mining companies in the country was established with a British investment in which I was involved in and I was very supportive of the work that this company does to develop manganese mining in the Kalahari Desert and your role there was advisory formal what was the role there it was an advisory role so no ownership no ownership no equity no engagement you call them to help out on a project I was asked to support the company at the crucial time when they had a dispute on royalties when they were looking at the future of the Kalahari basin and the future of the manganese reserve say and also to help the company through a transition of the black leadership the black executive leadership of the cut year is that roughly 2017 so recently okay let on the ownership of c5 can you explain who owns c5 I mean you're described as the owner if it's a venture capital firm you probably of investors so your managing director you probably have some carry of some sort and then talk about the relationship between c5 razor bidco the Russian special purpose vehicle that was created is that owning what does it fit is it a subordinate role so see my capital so Jones to start with c5 razor boot code was was never a Russian special purpose vehicle this was a British special purpose vehicle which we established for our own investment into a European enterprise software company vladimir kuznetsov later invested as an angel investor into the same company and we required him to do it through our structure because it was transparent and subject to FCA regulation there's no ties back to c5 he's been not an owner in any way of c5 no not on c5 so C fibers owned by five families who helped to establish the business and grow the business and partner in the business these are blue chip very well known European and American families it's a small transatlantic community or family investors who believe that it's important to use private capital for the greater good right history dealing with Russians can you talk about your career you mentioned your career in South Africa earlier talk about your career deal in Russia when did you start working with Russian people I was the international stage Russian Russia's that time in 90s and 2000 and now certainly has changed a lot let's talk about your history and deal with the Russians so percent of the Soviet Union I think there was a significant window for Western investment into Russia and Western investment during this time also grew very significantly during my career as an investigator I often dealt with Russian organized crime cases and in fact I established my consulting business with a former head of the Central European division of the CIA who was an expert on Russia and probably one of the world's leading experts on Russia so to get his name William Lofgren so during the course of of building this business we helped many Western investors with problems and issues related to their investments in Russia so you were working for the West I was waiting for the West so you are the good side and but when you were absolutely and when and when you do work of this kind of course you get to know a lot of people in Russia and you make Russian contacts and like in any other country as as Alexander Solzhenitsyn the great Russian dissident wrote the line that separates good and evil doesn't run between countries it runs through the hearts of people and so in this context there are there are people in Russia who crossed my path and across my professional career who were good people who were working in a constructive way for Russia's freedom and for Russia's independence and that I continue to hold in high regard and you find there's no technical security risk the United States of America with your relationship with c5 and Russia well my my investigative work that related to Russia cases are all in the past this was all done in the past as you said I was acting in the interest of Western corporations and Western governments in their relations with Russia that's documented and you'd be prepared to be transparent about that absolutely that's all those many of those cases are well documented to corporations for which my consulting firm acted are very well known very well known businesses and it's pretty much all on the on the Podesta gaiting corruption we were we were we were helping Western corporations invest into Russia in a way that that that meant that they did not get in meshed in corruption that meant they didn't get blackmailed by Russia organized crime groups which meant that their investments were sustainable and compliant with the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act and other bribery regulation at war for everyone who I know that lives in Europe that's my age said when the EU was established there's a flight of Eastern Europeans and Russians into Western Europe and they don't have the same business practices so I'd imagine you'd run into some pretty seedy scenarios in this course of business well in drug-dealing under I mean a lot of underground stuff was going on they're different they're different government they're different economy I mean it wasn't like a structure so you probably were exposed to a lot many many post-conflict countries suffer from predatory predatory organized crime groups and I think what changed and of course of my invested investigative career was that many of these groups became digital and a lot of organized crime that was purely based in the physical world went into the into the digital world which was one of the other major reasons which led me to focus on cyber security and to invest in cyber security well gets that in a minute well that's great I may only imagine some of the things you're investigated it's easy to connect people with things when yeah things are orbiting around them so appreciate the candid response there I wanna move on to the other area I see in the stories national security risk conflict of interest in some of the stories you seeing this well is there conflict of interest this is an IT playbook I've seen over the years federal deals well you're gonna create some Fahd fear uncertainty and doubt there's always kind of accusations you know there's accusations around well are they self dealing and you know these companies or I've seen this before so I gotta ask you they're involved with you bought a company called s DB advisors it was one of the transactions that they're in I see connecting to in my research with the DoD Sally Donnelly who is Sally Donnelly why did you buy her business so I didn't buy Sonny Donnelly's business again so Sally Tony let's start with Sally darling so Sally Donny was introduced to me by Apple Mike Mullen as a former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and Sally served as his special advisor when he was the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Apple Mullen was one of the first operating parties which we had in c5 and he continues to serve Admiral Mullen the four start yes sir okay and he continues to serve as one of operating partners to this day salad only and that will Mike worked very closely with the Duke of Westminster on one of his charitable projects which we supported and which is close to my heart which is established a new veteran rehabilitation center for Britain upgrading our facility which dates back to the Second World War which is called Headley court to a brand-new state-of-the-art facility which was a half a billion dollar public-private partnership which Duke led and in this context that Ron Mullen and Sally helped the Duke and it's team to meet some of the best experts in the US on veteran rehabilitation on veteran care and on providing for veterans at the end of the service and this was a this was a great service which it did to the to this new center which is called the defense and national rehabilitation center which opened up last summer in Britain and is a terrific asset not only for Britain but also for allies and and so the acquisition she went on to work with secretary Manus in the Department of Defense yes in February Feb 9 you through the transaction yes in February 2017 Sally decided to do public service and support of safety matters when he joined the current administration when she left her firm she sold it free and clear to a group of local Washington entrepreneurs and she had to do that very quickly because the appointment of secretary mattis wasn't expected he wasn't involved in any political campaigns he was called back to come and serve his country in the nation's interest very unexpectedly and Sally and a colleague of us Tony de Martino because of their loyalty to him and the law did to the mission followed him into public service and my understanding is it's an EAJA to sell a business in a matter of a day or two to be able to be free and clear of title and to have no compliance issues while she was in government her consulting business didn't do any work for the government it was really focused on advising corporations on working with the government and on defense and national security issues I didn't buy Sonny's business one of c-5 portfolio companies a year later acquired SPD advisors from the owner supported with a view to establishing and expanding one of our cyber advising businesses into the US market and this is part of a broader bind bolt project which is called Haven ITC secure and this was just one of several acquisitions that this platform made so just for the record c5 didn't buy her company she repeat relieved herself of any kind of conflict of interest going into the public service your portfolio company acquired the company in short order because they knew the synergies because it would be were close to it so I know it's arm's length but as a venture capitalist you have no real influence other than having an investment or board seat on these companies right so they act independent in your structure absolutely make sure I get that's exactly right John but but not much more importantly only had no influence over the Jedi contract she acted as secretary mitosis chief of staff for a period of a year and have functions as described by the Government Accounting Office was really of a ministerial nature so she was much more focused on the Secretary's diary than she was focused on any contracting issues as you know government contracting is very complex it's very technical sally has as many wonderful talents and attributes but she's never claimed to be a cloud computing expert and of equal importance was when sally joined the government in february 17 jeddah wasn't even on the radar it wasn't even conceived as a possibility why did yet I cannot just for just for the record the Jedi contract my understanding is that and I'm not an expert on one government contracting but my understanding is that the RFP the request for proposals for the July contract came out in quarter three of this year for the first time earlier this year there was a publication of an intention to put out an RFP I think that happened in at the end of quarter one five yep classic yeah and then the RFP came out and called a three bits had to go in in November and I understand a decision will be made sometime next year what's your relationship well where's she now what she still was so sunny left finished the public service and and I think February March of this year and she's since gone on to do a fellowship with a think-tank she's also reestablished her own business in her own right and although we remain to be good friends I'm in no way involved in a business or a business deal I have a lot of friends in DC I'm not a really policy wonk of any kind we have a lot of friends who are it's it's common when it administrations turnover people you know or either appointed or parked a work force they leave and they go could they go to consultancy until the next yeah until the next and frustration comes along yeah and that's pretty common that's pretty cool this is what goes on yeah and I think this whole issue of potential conflicts of interest that salad only or Tony the Martino might have had has been addressed by the Government Accounting Office in its ruling which is on the public record where the GAO very clearly state that neither of these two individuals were anywhere near the team that was writing the terms for the general contract and that their functions were really as described by the GAO as ministerial so XI salient Antonia was such a long way away from this contact there's just no way that they could have influenced it in in in any respect and their relation to c5 is advisory do they and do they both are they have relations with you now what's the current relationship since since Sally and Tony went to do public service we've had no contact with them we have no reason of course to have contact with them in any way they were doing public service they were serving the country and serving the nation and since they've come out of public service we've we've not reestablished any commercial relationship so we talked earlier about the relation with AWS there's only if have a field support two incubators its accelerator does c5 have any portfolio companies that are actually bidding or working on the Jedi contract none what Santa John not zero zero so outside of c5 having relation with Amazon and no portfolios working with a Jedi contract there's no link to c5 other than a portfolio company buying Sally Donnelly who's kind of connected to general mattis up here yeah Selleck has six degrees of separation yes I think this is a constant theme in this conspiracy theory Jonas is six degrees of separation it's it's taking relationships that that that developed in a small community in Washington and trying to draw nefarious and sinister conclusions from them instead of focusing on competing on performance competing on innovation and competing on price and perhaps that's not taking place because the companies that are trying to do this do not have the capability to do so Andre I really appreciate you coming on and answering these tough questions I want to talk about what's going on with c5 now but I got to say you know I want to ask you one more time because I think this is critical you've worked for big-time company Kroll with terminus international market very crazy time time transformation wise you've worked with the CIA in Quantico the FBI nuclei in Quantico on a collaboration you were to know you've done work for the good guys you have see if I've got multiple years operating why why are you being put as a bad guy here I mean you're gonna you know being you being put out there with if you search your name on Google it says you're a spy all these evil all these things are connecting and we're kind of digging through them they kind of don't Joan I've had the privilege of a tremendous career I've had the privilege of working with with great leaders and having had great mentors if you do anything of significance if you do anything that's helping to make a difference or to make a change you should first expect scrutiny but also expect criticism when that scrutiny and criticism are fact-based that's helpful and that's good for society and for the health of society when on the other hand it is fake news or it is the construct of elaborate conspiracy theories that's not good for the health of society it's not good for the national interest is not good for for doing good business you've been very after you're doing business for the for the credibility people questioning your credibility what do you want to tell people that are watching this about your credibility that's in question again with this stuff you've done and you're continuing to do what's the one share something to the folks that might mean something to them you can sway them or you want to say something directly what would you say the measure of a person it is his or her conduct in c-five we are continuing to build our business we continue to invest in great companies we continue to put cravat private capital to work to help drive innovation including in the US market we will continue to surround ourselves with good people and we will continue to set the highest standards for the way in which we invest and build our businesses it's common I guess I would say that I'm getting out as deep as you are in the in term over the years with looking at these patterns but the pattern that I see is very simple when bad guys get found out they leave the jurisdiction they flee they go do something else and they reinvent themselves and scam someone else you've been doing this for many many years got a great back record c5 now is still doing business continuing not skipping a beat the story comes out hopefully kind of derail this or something else will think we're gonna dig into it so than angle for sure but you still have investments you're deploying globally talk about what c5 is doing today tomorrow next few months the next year you have deals going down you're still doing business you have business out there our business has not slowed down for a moment we have the support of tremendous investors we have the support of tremendous partners in our portfolio companies we have the support of a great group of operating partners and most important of all we have a highly dedicated highly focused group of investment teams of very experienced and skilled professionals who are making profitable investments and so we are continuing to build our business we have a very full deal pipeline we will be completing more investment transactions next week and we are continue to scalar assets under management next year we will have half a billion dollars of assets under management and we continue to focus on our mission which is to use private capital to help innovate and drive a change for good after again thank you we have the story in the BBC kicked all this off the 12th no one's else picked it up I think other journals have you mentioned earlier you think this there's actually people putting this out you you call out let's got John wheeler we're going to look into him do you think there's an organized campaign right now organized to go after you go after Amazon are you just collateral damage you mentioned that earlier is there a funded effort here well Bloomberg has reported on the fact that that one of the competitors for this bit of trying to bring together a group of companies behind a concerted effort specifically to block Amazon Web Services and so we hear these reports we see this press speculation if that was the case of course that would not be good for a fair and open and competitive bidding process which is I think is the Department of Defense's intention and what is in the interests of the country at a time when national security innovation will determine not only the fate of future Wars but also the fate of a sons and daughters who are war fighters and to be fair to process having something undermine it like a paid-for dossier which I have multiple sources confirming that's happened it's kind of infiltrating the journalists and so that's kind of where I'm looking at right now is that okay the BBC story just didn't feel right to me credible outlet you work for them you did investigations for them back in the day have you talked to them yes no we are we are we are in correspondence with the BBC I think in particular we want them to address the fact that they've conflated facts in this story playing this parlor game of six degrees of separation we want them to address the important principle of the independence of the in editorial integrity at the fact that they did not disclose that they expert on this program actually has significant conflicts of interests of his own and finally we want them to disclose the fact that it's not c5 and Amazon Web Services who have had a relationship with the scope of our technology park the scope of our technology park actually has a very broad set of Western partners still highly engaged there and even in recent weeks of hosted major cloud contracts and conferences there and and all of this should have been part of the story in on the record well we're certainly going to dig into it I appreciate your answer the tough questions we're gonna certainly look into this dossier if this is true this is bad and if there's people behind it acting behind it then certainly we're gonna report on that and I know these were tough questions thanks for taking the time Andre to to answer them with us Joan thanks for doing a deep dive on us okay this is the Q exclusive conversation here in Palo Alto authority narc who's the founder of c-5 capital venture capital firm in the center of a controversy around this BBC story which we're going to dig into more this has been exclusive conversation I'm John Tory thanks for watching [Music] you

[Music] when welcome to the special exclusive cube conversation here in Palo Alto in our studios I'm John for your host of the cube we have a very special guest speaking for the first time around some alleged alleged accusations and also innuendo around the Amazon Web Services Jedi contract and his firm c5 capital our guest as Andre Pienaar who's the founder of c5 capital Andre is here for the first time to talk about some of the hard conversations and questions surrounding his role his firm and the story from the BBC Andre thanks for a rat for meeting with me John great to have me thank you so you're at the center of a controversy and just for the folks who know the cube know we interviewed a lot of people I've interviewed you at Amazon web sources summit Teresa Carl's event and last year I met you and bought a rein the work you're doing there so I've met you a few times so I don't know your background but I want to drill into it because I was surprised to see the BBC story come out last week that was basically accusing you of many things including are you a spy are you infiltrating the US government through the Jedi contract through Amazon and knowing c-5 capital I saw no correlation when reading your article I was kind of disturbed but then I saw I said a follow-on stories it just didn't hang together so I wanted to press you on some questions and thanks for coming in and addressing them appreciate it John thanks for having me so first thing I want to ask you is you know it has you at the center this firm c5 capital that you the founder of at the center of what looks like to be the fight for the big ten billion dollar DoD contract which has been put out to multiple vendors so it's not a single source deal we've covered extensively on silicon angle calm and the cube and the government the government Accounting Office has ruled that there are six main benefits of going with a sole provider cloud this seems to be the war so Oracle IBM and others have been been involved we've been covering that so it kind of smells like something's going along with the story and I just didn't believe some of the things I read and I want to especially about you and see five capitals so I want to dig into what the first thing is it's c5 capital involved in the Jedi contract with AWS Sean not at all we have absolutely no involvement in the Jedi contract in any way we're not a bidder and we haven't done any lobbying as has been alleged by some of the people who've been making this allegation c5 has got no involvement in the general contract we're a venture capital firm with a British venture capital firm we have the privilege of investing here in the US as a foreign investor and our focus really is on the growth and the success of the startups that we are invested in so you have no business interest at all in the deal Department of Defense Jedi contract none whatsoever okay so to take a minute to explain c5 firm I read some of the stories there and some of the things were intricate structures of c5 cap made it sound like there was like a cloak-and-dagger situation I want to ask you some hard questions around that because there's a link to a Russian situation but before we get to there I want to ask you explain what is c5 capital your mission what are the things that you're doing c5 is a is a British venture capital firm and we are focused on investing into fast-growing technology companies in three areas cloud computing cyber security and artificial intelligence we have two parts our business c5 capital which invests into late stage companies so these are companies that typically already have revenue visibility and profitability but still very fast-growing and then we also have a very early stage startup platform that look at seed state investment and this we do through two accelerators to social impact accelerators one in Washington and one in Bahrain and it's just size of money involved just sort of order magnitude how many funds do you have how is it structure again just share some insight on that is it is there one firm is there multiple firms how is it knows it work well today the venture capital business has to be very transparent it's required by compliance we are a regulated regulated firm we are regulated in multiple markets we regulated here in the US the sec as a foreign investor in london by the financial conduct authority and in Luxembourg where Afonso based by the regulatory authorities there so in the venture capital industry today you can't afford to be an opaque business you have to be transparent at all levels and money in the Western world have become almost completely transparent so there's a very comprehensive and thorough due diligence when you onboard capital called know your client and the requirements standard requirement now is that whenever you're onboard capital from investor you're gonna take it right up to the level of the ultimate beneficial ownership so who actually owns this money and then every time you invest and you move your money around it gets diligence together different regulators and in terms of disclosure and the same applies often now with clients when our portfolio companies have important or significant clients they also want to know who's behind the products and the services they receive so often our boards our board directors and a shell team also get diligence by by important clients so explain this piece about the due diligence and the cross country vetting that goes on is I think it's important I want to get it out because how long has been operating how many deals have you done you mentioned foreign investor in the United States you're doing deals in the United States I know I've met one of your portfolio companies at an event iron iron on it iron net general Keith Alexander former head of the NSA you know get to just work with him without being vetted I guess so so how long a c5 capital been in business and where have you made your investments you mentioned cross jurisdiction across countries whatever it's called I don't know that so we've been and we've been in existence for about six years now our main focus is investing in Europe so we help European companies grow globally Europe historically has been underserved by venture capital we on an annual basis we invest about twenty seven billion dollars gets invested in venture capital in Europe as opposed to several multiples of that in the US so we have a very important part to play in Europe to how European enterprise software companies grow globally other important markets for us of course are Israel which is a major center of technology innovation and and the Middle East and then the u.s. the u.s. is still the world leader and venture capital both in terms of size but also in terms of the size of the market and of course the face and the excitement of the innovation here I want to get into me early career because again timing is key we're seeing this with you know whether it's a Supreme Court justice or anyone in their career their past comes back to haunt them it appears that has for you before we get there I want to ask you about you know when you look at the kind of scope of fraud and corruption that I've seen in just on the surface of government thing the government bit Beltway bandits in America is you got a nonprofit that feeds a for-profit and then what you know someone else runs a shell corporation so there's this intricate structures and that word was used which it kind of implies shell corporations a variety of backroom kind of smokey deals going on you mentioned transparency I do you have anything to hide John in in in our business we've got absolutely nothing to hide we have to be transparent we have to be open if you look at our social media profile you'll see we are communicating with the market almost on a daily basis every time we make an investment we press release that our website is very clear about who's involved enough who our partners are and the same applies to my own personal website and so in terms of the money movement around in terms of deploying investments we've seen Silicon Valley VCS move to China get their butts handed to them and then kind of adjust their scenes China money move around when you move money around you mentioned disclosure what do you mean there's filings to explain that piece it's just a little bit so every time we make an investment into a into a new portfolio company and we move the money to that market to make the investment we have to disclose who all the investors are who are involved in that investment so we have to disclose the ultimate beneficial ownership of all our limited partners to the law firms that are involved in the transactions and those law firms in turn have applications in terms of they own anti-money laundering laws in the local markets and this happens every time you move money around so I I think that the level of transparency in venture capital is just continue to rise exponentially and it's virtually impossible to conceal the identity of an investor this interesting this BBC article has a theme of national security risk kind of gloom and doom nuclear codes as mentioned it's like you want to scare someone you throw nuclear codes at it you want to get people's attention you play the Russian card I saw an article on the web that that said you know anything these days the me2 movement for governments just play the Russian card and you know instantly can discredit someone's kind of a desperation act so you got confident of interest in the government national security risk seems to be kind of a theme but before we get into the BBC news I noticed that there was a lot of conflated pieces kind of pulling together you know on one hand you know you're c5 you've done some things with your hat your past and then they just make basically associate that with running amazon's jedi project yes which i know is not to be true and you clarified that joan ends a problem joan so as a venture capital firm focused on investing in the space we have to work with all the Tier one cloud providers we are great believers in commercial cloud public cloud we believe that this is absolutely transformative not only for innovation but also for the way in which we do venture capital investment so we work with Amazon Web Services we work with Microsoft who work with Google and we believe that firstly that cloud has been made in America the first 15 companies in the world are all in cloud companies are all American and we believe that cloud like the internet and GPS are two great boons which the US economy the u.s. innovation economy have provided to the rest of the world cloud computing is reducing the cost of computing power with 50 percent every three years opening up innovation and opportunities for Entrepreneurship for health and well-being for the growth of economies on an unprecedented scale cloud computing is as important to the global economy today as the dollar ease as the world's reserve currency so we are great believers in cloud we great believers in American cloud computing companies as far as Amazon is concerned our relationship with Amazon Amazon is very Amazon Web Services is very clear and it's very defined we participate in a public Marcus program called AWS activate through which AWS supports hundreds of accelerators around the world with know-how with mentoring with teaching and with cloud credits to help entrepreneurs and startups grow their businesses and we have a very exciting focus for our two accelerators which is on in Washington we focus on peace technology we focus on taking entrepreneurs from conflict countries like Sudan Nigeria Pakistan to come to Washington to work on campus in the US government building the u.s. Institute for peace to scale these startups to learn all about cloud computing to learn how they can grow their businesses with cloud computing and to go back to their own countries to build peace and stability and prosperity their heaven so we're very proud of this mission in the Middle East and Bahrain our focus is on on female founders and female entrepreneurs we've got a program called nebula through which we empower female founders and female entrepreneurs interesting in the Middle East the statistics are the reverse from what we have in the West the majority of IT graduates in the Middle East are fimo and so there's a tremendous talent pool of of young dynamic female entrepreneurs coming out of not only the Gulf but the whole of the MENA region how about a relation with Amazon websites outside of their normal incubators they have incubators all over the place in the Amazon put out as Amazon Web Services put out a statement that said hey you know we have a lot of relationships with incubators this is normal course of business I know here in Silicon Valley at the startup loft this is this is their market filled market playbook so you fit into that is that correct as I'm I get that that's that's absolutely correct what we what is unusual about a table insists that this is a huge company that's focused on tiny startups a table started with startups it double uses first clients with startups and so here you have a huge business that has a deep understanding of startups and focus on startups and that's enormous the attractor for us and terrific for our accelerators department with them have you at c5 Capitol or individually have any formal or conversation with Amazon employees where you've had outside of giving feedback on products where you've tried to make change on their technology make change with their product management teams engineering you ever had at c5 capital whore have you personally been involved in influencing Amazon's product roadmap outside they're just giving normal feedback in the course of business that's way above my pay grade John firstly we don't have that kind of technical expertise in C 5 C 5 steam consists of a combination of entrepreneurs like myself people understand money really well and leaders we don't have that level of technical expertise and secondly that's what one our relationship with AWS is all about our relationship is entirely limited to the two startups and making sure that the two accelerators in making sure that the startups who pass through those accelerators succeed and make social impact and as a partner network component Amazon it's all put out there yes so in in a Barren accelerator we've we formed part of the Amazon partner network and the reason why we we did that was because we wanted to give some of the young people who come through the accelerator and know mastering cloud skills an opportunity to work on some real projects and real live projects so some of our young golf entrepreneurs female entrepreneurs have been working on building websites on Amazon Cloud and c5 capital has a relationship with former government officials you funded startups and cybersecurity that's kind of normal can you explain that positioning of it of how former government if it's whether it's US and abroad are involved in entrepreneurial activities and why that is may or may not be a problem certainly is a lot of kind of I would say smoke around this conversation around coffin of interest and you can you explain intelligence what that was it so I think the model for venture capital has been evolving and increasingly you get more and more differentiated models one of the key areas in which the venture capital model is changed is the fact that operating partners have become much more important to the success of venture capital firms so operating partners are people who bring real world experience to the investment experience of the investment team and in c-five we have the privilege of having a terrific group of operating partners people with both government and commercial backgrounds and they work very actively enough firm at all levels from our decision-making to the training and the mentoring of our team to helping us understand the way in which the world is exchanging to risk management to helping uh portfolio companies grow and Silicon Valley true with that to injuries in Horowitz two founders mr. friendly they bring in operating people that have entrepreneurial skills this is the new model understand order which has been a great source of inspiration to us for our model and and we built really believe this is a new model and it's really critical for the success of venture capitals to be going forward and the global impact is pretty significant one of things you mentioned I want to get your take on is as you operate a global transaction a lots happened a lot has to happen I mean we look at the ICO market on the cryptocurrency side its kind of you know plummeting obsoletes it's over now the mood security children's regulatory and transparency becomes critical you feel fully confident that you haven't you know from a regulatory standpoint c5 capital everything's out there absolutely risk management and regulated compliance and legal as the workstream have become absolutely critical for the success of venture capital firms and one of the reasons why this becomes so important John is because the venture capital world over the last few years have changed dramatically historically all the people involved in venture capital had very familiar names and came from very familiar places over the last few years with a diversification of global economic growth we've seen it's very significant amounts of money being invest invested in startups in China some people more money will invest in startups this year in China than in the US and we've seen countries like Saudi Arabia becoming a major source of venture capital funding some people say that as much as 70% of funding rounds this year in some way or another originated from the Gulf and we've seen places like Russia beginning to take an interest in technology innovation so the venture capital world is changing and for that reason compliance and regulation have become much more important but if Russians put 200 million dollars in face book and write out the check companies bright before that when the after 2008 we saw the rise of social networking I think global money certainly has something that I think a lot of people start getting used to and I want on trill down into that a little bit we talked about this BBC story that that hit and the the follow-on stories which actually didn't get picked up was mostly doing more regurgitation of the same story but one of the things that that they focus in on and the story was you and the trend now is your past is your enemy these days you know they try to drum up stuff in the past you've had a long career some of the stuff that they've been bringing in to paint you and the light that they did was from your past so I wanted to explore that with you I know you this is the first time you've talked about this and I appreciate you taking the time talk about your early career your background where you went to school because the way I'm reading this it sounds like you're a shady character I like like I interviewed on the queue but I didn't see that but you know I'm going to pressure here for that if you don't mind I'd like to to dig into that John thank you for that so I've had the I've had the privilege of a really amazingly interesting life and at the heart of at the heart of that great adventures been people and the privilege to work with really great people and good people I was born in South Africa I grew up in Africa went to school there qualified as a lawyer and then came to study in Britain when I studied international politics when I finished my studies international politics I got head hunted by a US consulting firm called crow which was a start of a 20 years career as an investigator first in crawl where I was a managing director in the London and then in building my own consulting firm which was called g3 and all of this led me to cybersecurity because as an investigator looking into organized crime looking into corruption looking into asset racing increasingly as the years went on everything became digital and I became very interested in finding evidence on electronic devices but starting my career and CRO was tremendous because Jules Kroll was a incredible mentor he could walk through an office and call everybody by their first name any Kroll office anywhere in the world and he always took a kindly interest in the people who work for him so it was a great school to go to and and I worked on some terrific cases including some very interesting Russian cases and Russian organized crime cases just this bag of Kroll was I've had a core competency in doing investigative work and also due diligence was that kind of focus yes although Kroll was the first company in the world to really have a strong digital practice led by Alan Brugler of New York Alan established the first computer forensics practice which was all focused about finding evidence on devices and everything I know about cyber security today started with me going to school with Alan Brolin crawl and they also focused on corruption uncovering this is from Wikipedia Kroll clients help Kroll helps clients improve operations by uncovering kickbacks fraud another form of corruptions other specialty areas is forensic accounting background screening drug testing electronic investigation data recovery SATA result Omar's McLennan in 2004 for 1.9 billion mark divested Kroll to another company I'll take credit risk management to diligence investigator in Falls Church Virginia over 150 countries call Kroll was the first CRO was the first household brand name in this field of of investigations and today's still is probably one of the strongest brand names and so it was a great firm to work in and was a great privilege to be part of it yeah high-end high-profile deals were there how many employees were in Kroll cuz I'd imagine that the alumni that that came out of Kroll probably have found places in other jobs similar to yes do an investigative work like you know they out them all over the world many many alumni from Kroll and many of them doing really well and doing great work ok great so now the next question want to ask you is when you in Kroll the South Africa connection came up so I got to ask you it says business side that you're a former South African spy are you a former South African spy no John I've never worked for any government agency and in developing my career my my whole focus has been on investigations out of the Kroll London office I did have the opportunity to work in South Africa out of the Kroll London office and this was really a seminal moment in my career when I went to South Africa on a case for a major international credit-card company immediately after the end of apartheid when democracy started to look into the scale and extent of credit card fraud at the request of this guy what year was there - how old were you this was in 1995 1996 I was 25 26 years old and one of the things which this credit card company asked me to do was to assess what was the capability of the new democratic government in South Africa under Nelson Mandela to deal with crime and so I had the privilege of meeting mr. Mandela as the president to discuss this issue with him and it was an extraordinary man the country's history because there was such an openness and a willingness to to address issues of this nature and to grapple with them so he was released from prison at that time I remember those days and he became president that's why he called you and you met with him face to face of a business conversation around working on what the future democracy is and trying to look at from a corruption standpoint or just kind of in general was that what was that conversation can you share so so that so the meeting involved President Mandela and and the relevant cabinet ministers the relevant secretaries and his cabinet - responsible for for these issues and the focus of our conversation really started with well how do you deal with credit card fraud and how do you deal with large-scale fraud that could be driven by organized crime and at the time this was an issue of great concern to the president because there was bombing in Kate of a Planet Hollywood cafe where a number of people got very severely injured and the president believed that this could have been the result of a protection racket in Cape Town and so he wanted to do something about it he was incredibly proactive and forward-leaning and in an extraordinary way he ended the conversation by by asking where the Kroll can help him and so he commissioned Kroll to build the capacity of all the black officers that came out of the ANC and have gone into key government positions on how to manage organized crime investigations it was the challenge at that time honestly I can imagine apartheid I remember you know I was just at a college that's not properly around the same age as you it was a dynamic time to say the least was his issue around lack of training old school techniques because you know that was right down post-cold-war and then did what were the concerns not enough people was it just out of control was it a corrupt I mean just I mean what was the core issue that Nelson wanted to hire Kroll and you could work his core issue was he wanted to ensure the stability of South Africa's democracy that was his core focus and he wanted to make South Africa an attractive place where international companies felt comfortable and confident in investing and that was his focus and he felt that at that time because so many of the key people in the ANC only had training in a cold war context that there wasn't a Nessy skill set to do complex financial or more modern investigations and it was very much focused he was always the innovator he was very much focused on bringing the best practices and the best investigative techniques to the country he was I felt in such a hurry that he doesn't want to do this by going to other governments and asking for the help he wanted to Commission it himself and so he gave he gave a crawl with me as the project leader a contract to do this and my namesake Francois Pienaar has become very well known because of the film Invictus and he's been he had the benefit of Mandela as a mentor and as a supporter and that changed his career the same thing happened to me so what did he actually asked you to do was it to train build a force because there's this talk that and was a despite corruption specifically it was it more both corruption and or stability because they kind of go hand in hand policy and it's a very close link between corruption and instability and and president Ellis instructions were very clear to Crowley said go out and find me the best people in the world the most experienced people in the world who can come to South Africa and train my people how to fight organized crime so I went out and I found some of the best people from the CIA from mi6 the British intelligence service from the Drug Enforcement Agency here in the US form officers from the Federal Bureau of Investigation's detectives from Scotland Yard prosecutors from the US Justice Department and all of them for a number of years traveled to South Africa to train black officers who were newly appointed in key roles in how to combat organized crime and this was you acting as an employee he had crow there's not some operative this is he this was me very much acting as a as an executive and crow I was the project leader Kroll was very well structured and organized and I reported to the chief executive officer in the London office nor Garret who was the former head of the CIA's Near East Division and Nelson Mandela was intimately involved in this with you at Krall President Mandela was the ultimate support of this project and he then designated several ministers to work on it and also senior officials in the stories that had been put out this past week they talked about this to try to make it sound like you're involved on two sides of the equation they bring up scorpions was this the scorpions project that they referred to so it was the scorpions scorpion sounds so dangerous and a movie well there's a movie a movie does feature this so at the end of the training project President Mandela and deputy president Thabo Mbeki who subsequently succeeded him as president put together a ministerial committee to look at what should they do with the capacity that's been built with this investment that they made because for a period of about three years we had all the leading people the most experienced people that have come out of some of the best law enforcement agencies and some of the best intelligence services come and trained in South Africa and this was quite this was quite something John because many of the senior officers in the ANC came from a background where they were trained by the opponents of the people came to treat trained them so so many of them were trained by the Stasi in East Germany some of them were trained by the Russian KGB some of them were trained by the Cubans so we not only had to train them we also had to win their trust and when we started this that's a diverse set of potential dogma and or just habits a theory modernised if you will right is that what the there was there was a question of of learning new skills and there was a question about also about learning management capabilities there was also question of learning the importance of the media for when you do difficult and complex investigations there was a question about using digital resources but there was also fundamentally a question of just building trust and when we started this program none of the black officers wanted to be photographed with all these foreign trainers who were senior foreign intelligence officers when we finished that everyone wanted to be in the photograph and so this was a great South African success story but the President and the deputy president then reflected on what to do with his capacity and they appointed the ministerial task force to do this and we were asked to make recommendations to this Minister ministerial task force and one of the things which we did was we showed them a movie because you referenced the movie and the movie we showed them was the untouchables with Kevin Costner and Sean Connery which is still one of my favorite and and greatest movies and the story The Untouchables is about police corruption in Chicago and how in the Treasury Department a man called Eliot Ness put together a group of officers from which he selected from different places with clean hands to go after corruption during the Probie and this really captured the president's imagination and so he said that's what he want and Ella yeah okay so he said della one of the untouchables he wanted Eliot Ness exactly Al Capone's out there and and how many people were in that goodness so we asked that we we established the government then established decided to establish and this was passed as a law through Parliament the director of special operations the DSO which colloquy became known as the scorpions and it had a scorpion as a symbol for this unit and this became a standalone anti-corruption unit and the brilliant thing about it John was that the first intake of scorpion officers were all young black graduates many of them law graduates and at the time Janet Reno was the US Attorney General played a very crucial role she allowed half of the first intake of young cratchits to go to Quantico and to do the full FBI course in Quantico and this was the first group of foreign students who've ever been admitted to Quantico to do the full Quantico were you involved at what score's at that time yes sir and so you worked with President Mandela yes the set of the scorpions is untouchable skiing for the first time as a new democracy is emerging the landscape is certainly changing there's a transformation happening we all know the history laugh you don't watch Invictus probably great movie to do that you then worked with the Attorney General United States to cross-pollinate the folks in South Africa black officers law degrees Samar's fresh yes this unit with Quantico yes in the United States I had the privilege of attending the the graduation ceremony of the first of South African officers that completed the Quantico course and representing crow they on the day you had us relationships at that time to crawl across pollen I had the privilege of working with some of the best law enforcement officers and best intelligence officers that has come out of the u.s. services and they've been tremendous mentors in my career they've really shaped my thinking they've shaped my values and they've they've shaved my character so you're still under 30 at this time so give us a is that where this where are we in time now just about a 30 so you know around the nine late nineties still 90s yeah so client-server technologies there okay so also the story references Leonard McCarthy and these spy tapes what is this spy tape saga about it says you had a conversation with McCarthy me I'm thinking that a phone tap explain that spy tape saga what does it mean who's Lennon McCarthy explain yourself so so so Leonard McCarthy it's a US citizen today he served two terms as the vice president for institutional integrity at the World Bank which is the world's most important anti-corruption official he started his career as a prosecutor in South Africa many years ago and then became the head of the economic crimes division in the South African Justice Department and eventually became the head of the scorpions and many years after I've left Kroll and were no longer involved in in the work of the scorpions he texted me one evening expressing a concern and an anxiety that I had about the safety of his family and I replied to him with two text messages one was a Bible verse and the other one was a Latin saying and my advice name was follow the rule of law and put the safety of your family first and that was the advice I gave him so this is how I imagined the year I think of it the internet was just there this was him this was roundabout 2000 December 2007 okay so there was I phone just hit so text messaging Nokia phones all those big yeah probably more text message there so you sitting anywhere in London you get a text message from your friend yep later this past late tonight asking for help and advice and I gave him the best advice I can he unfortunately was being wiretapped and those wiretaps were subsequently published and became the subject of much controversy they've now been scrutinized by South Africa's highest court and the court has decided that those wiretaps are of no impact and of importance in the scheme of judicial decision-making and our unknown provenance and on and on unknown reliability they threw it out basically yeah they're basically that's the president he had some scandals priors and corruption but back to the tapes you the only involvement on the spy tapes was friend sending you a text message that says hey I'm running a corruption you know I'm afraid for my life my family what do I do and you give some advice general advice and that's it as there was there any more interactions with us no that's it that's it okay so you weren't like yeah working with it hey here's what we get strategy there was nothing that going on no other interactions just a friendly advice and that's what they put you I gave him my I gave him my best advice when you when you work in when you work as an investigator very much as and it's very similar in venture capital it's all about relationships and you want to preserve relationships for the long term and you develop deep royalties to its people particularly people with whom you've been through difficult situations as I have been with Leonard much earlier on when I was still involved in Kroll and giving advice to South African government on issues related to the scorpius so that that has a lot of holes and I did think that was kind of weird they actually can produce the actual tax I couldn't find that the spy tapes so there's a spy tape scandal out there your name is on out on one little transaction globbed on to you I mean how do you feel about that I mean you must've been pretty pissed when you saw that when you do it when when you do when you do investigative work you see really see everything and all kinds of things and the bigger the issues that you deal with the more frequently you see things that other people might find unusual I are you doing any work right now with c5 at South Africa and none whatsoever so I've I retired from my investigative Korea in 2014 I did terrific 20 years as an investigator during my time as investigator I came to understood the importance of digital and cyber and so at the end of it I saw an opportunity to serve a sector that historically have been underserved with capital which is cyber security and of course there are two areas very closely related to cyber security artificial intelligence and cloud and that's why I created c5 after I sold my investigator firm with five other families who equally believed in the importance of investing private capital to make a difference invest in private capital to help bring about innovation that can bring stability to the digital world and that's the mission of c-5 before I get to the heart news I want to drill in on the BBC stories I think that's really the focal point of you know why we're talking just you know from my standpoint I remember living as a young person in that time breaking into the business you know my 20s and 30s you had Live Aid in 1985 and you had 1995 the internet happened there was so much going on between those that decade 85 to 95 you were there I was an American so I didn't really have a lot exposure I did some work for IBM and Europe in 1980 says it's co-op student but you know I had some peak in the international world it must been pretty dynamic the cross-pollination the melting pot of countries you know the Berlin Wall goes down you had the cold war's ending you had apartheid a lot of things were going on around you yes so in that dynamic because if if the standard is you had links to someone you know talked about why how important it was that this melting pot and how it affected your relationships and how it looks now looking back because now you can almost tie anything to anything yes so I think the 90s was one of the most exciting periods of time because you had the birth of the internet and I started working on Internet related issues yet 20 million users today we have three and a half billion users and ten billion devices unthinkable at the time but in the wake of the internet also came a lot of changes as you say the Berlin Wall came down democracy in South Africa the Oslo peace process in the time that I worked in Kroll some of them made most important and damaging civil wars in Africa came to an end including the great war in the Congo peace came to Sudan and Angola the Ivory Coast so a lot of things happening and if you have a if you had a an international career at that time when globalization was accelerating you got to no a lot of people in different markets and both in crow and in my consulting business a key part of what it but we did was to keep us and Western corporations that were investing in emerging markets safe your credibility has been called in questions with this article and when I get to in a second what I want to ask you straight up is it possible to survive in the international theatre to the level that you're surviving if what they say is true if you if you're out scamming people or you're a bad actor pretty much over the the time as things get more transparent it's hard to survive right I mean talk about that dynamic because I just find it hard to believe that to be successful the way you are it's not a johnny-come-lately firms been multiple years operating vetted by the US government are people getting away in the shadows is it is is it hard because I almost imagine those are a lot of arbitrage I imagine ton of arbitrage that you that are happening there how hard or how easy it is to survive to be that shady and corrupt in this new era because with with with investigated with with intelligence communities with some terrific if you follow the money now Bitcoin that's a whole nother story but that's more today but to survive the eighties and nineties and to be where you are and what they're alleging I just what's your thoughts well to be able to attract capital and investors you have to have very high standards of governance and compliance because ultimately that's what investors are looking for and what investors will diligence when they make an investment with you so to carry the confidence of investors good standards of governance and compliance are of critical importance and raising venture capital and Europe is tough it's not like the US babe there's an abundance of venture capital available it's very hard Europe is under served by capital the venture capital invested in the US market is multiple of what we invest in Europe so you need to be even more focused on governance and compliance in Europe than you would be perhaps on other markets I think the second important point with Gmail John is that technology is brought about a lot of transparency and this is a major area of focus for our piece tech accelerator where we have startups who help to bring transparency to markets which previously did not have transparency for example one of the startups that came through our accelerator has brought complete transparency to the supply chain for subsistence farmers in Africa all the way to to the to the shelf of Walmart or a big grocery retailer in in the US or Europe and so I think technology is bringing a lot more more transparency we also have a global anti-corruption Innovation Challenge called shield in the cloud where we try and find and recognize the most innovative corporations governments and countries in the space so let's talk about the BBC story that hit 12 it says is a US military cloud the DoD Jedi contractor that's coming to award the eleventh hour safe from Russia fears over sensitive data so if this essentially the headline that's bolded says a technology company bidding for a Pentagon contract that's Amazon Web Services to store sensitive data has close partnerships with a firm linked to a sanctioned Russian oligarch the BBC has learned goes on to essentially put fear and tries to hang a story that says the national security of America is at risk because of c5u that's what we're talking about right now so so what's your take on this story I mean did you wake up and get an email said hey check out the BBC you're featured in and they're alleging that you have links to Russia and Amazon what Jon first I have to go I first have to do a disclosure I've worked for the BBC as an investigator when I was in Kroll and in fact I let the litigation support for the BBC in the biggest libel claim in British history which was post 9/11 when the BBC did a broadcast mistakenly accusing a mining company in Africa of laundering money for al-qaeda and so I represented the BBC in this case I was the manager hired you they hired me to delete this case for them and I'm I helped the BBC to reduce a libel claim of 25 million dollars to $750,000 so I'm very familiar with the BBC its integrity its standards and how it does things and I've always held the BBC in the highest regard and believed that the BBC makes a very important contribution to make people better informed about the world so when I heard about the story I was very disappointed because it seemed to me that the BBC have compromised the independence and the independence of the editorial control in broadcasting the story the reason why I say that is because the principal commentator in this story as a gentleman called John Wheeler who's familiar to me as a someone who's been trolling our firm on internet for the last year making all sorts of allegations the BBC did not disclose that mr. Weiler is a former Oracle executive the company that's protesting the Jedi bidding contract and secondly that he runs a lobbying firm with paid clients and that he himself often bid for government contracts in the US government context you're saying that John Wheeler who's sourced in the story has a quote expert and I did check him out I did look at what he was doing I checked out his Twitter he seems to be trying to socialise a story heavily first he needed eyes on LinkedIn he seems to be a consultant firm like a Beltway yes he runs a he runs a phone called in interoperability Clearing House and a related firm called the IT acquisition Advisory Council and these two organizations work very closely together the interoperability Clearing House or IC H is a consulting business where mr. Weiler acts for paying clients including competitors for this bidding contract and none of this was disclosed by the BBC in their program the second part of this program that I found very disappointing was the fact that the BBC in focusing on the Russian technology parks cocuwa did not disclose the list of skok of our partners that are a matter of public record on the Internet if you look at this list very closely you'll see c5 is not on there neither Amazon Web Services but the list of companies that are on there are very familiar names many of them competitors in this bidding process who acted as founding partners of skok about Oracle for example as recently as the 28th of November hosted what was described as the largest cloud computing conference in Russia's history at Skolkovo this is the this is the place which the BBC described as this notorious den of spies and at this event which Oracle hosted they had the Russian presidential administration on a big screen as one of their clients in Russia so some Oracle is doing business in Russia they have like legit real links to Russia well things you're saying if they suddenly have very close links with Skolkovo and so having a great many other Khayyam is there IBM Accenture cisco say Microsoft is saying Oracle is there so Skolkovo has a has a very distinguished roster of partners and if the BBC was fair and even-handed they would have disclosed us and they would have disclosed the fact that neither c5 nor Amazon feature as Corcovado you feel that the BBC has been duped the BBC clearly has been duped the program that they broadcasted is really a parlor game of six degrees of separation which they try to spun into a national security crisis all right so let's tell us John while ago you're saying John Wyler who's quoted in the story as an expert and by the way I read in the story my favorite line that I wanted to ask you on was there seems to be questions being raised but the question is being raised or referring to him so are you saying that he is not an expert but a plant for the story what's what's his role he's saying he works for Oracle or you think do you think he's being paid by Oracle like I can't comment on mr. Wireless motivation what strikes me is the fact that is a former Oracle executive what's striking is that he clearly on his website for the IC H identifies several competitors for the Jedi business clients and that all of this should have been disclosed by the BBC rather than to try and characterize and portray him as an independent expert on this story well AWS put out a press release or a blog post essentially hum this you know you guys had won it we're very clear and this I know it goes to the top because that's how Amazon works nothing goes out until it goes to the top which is Andy chassis and the senior people over there it says here's the relationship with c5 and ATS what school you use are the same page there but also they hinted the old guard manipulation distant I don't think they use the word disinformation campaign they kind of insinuate it and that's what I'm looking into I want to ask you are you part are you a victim of a disinformation campaign do you believe that you're not a victim being targeted with c5 as part of a disinformation campaign put on by a competitor to AWS I think what we've seen over the course of this last here is an enormous amount of disinformation around this contract and around this bidding process and they've a lot of the information that has been disseminated has not only not been factual but in some cases have been patently malicious well I have been covering Amazon for many many years this guy Tom Wyler is in seems to be circulating multiple reports invested in preparing for this interview I checked Vanity Fair he's quoted in Vanity Fair he's quoted in the BBC story and there's no real or original reporting other than those two there's some business side our article which is just regurgitating the Business Insider I mean the BBC story and a few other kind of blog stories but no real original yes no content don't so in every story that that's been written on this subject and as you say most serious publication have thrown this thrown these allegations out but in the in those few instances where they've managed to to publish these allegations and to leverage other people's credibility to their advantage and leverage other people's credibility for their competitive advantage John Wheeler has been the most important and prominent source of the allegations someone who clearly has vested commercial interests someone who clearly works for competitors as disclosed on his own website and none of this has ever been surfaced or addressed I have multiple sources have confirmed to me that there's a dossier that has been created and paid for by a firm or collection of firms to discredit AWS I've seen some of the summary documents of that and that is being peddled around to journalists we have not been approached yet I'm not sure they will because we actually know the cloud what cloud computing is so I'm sure we could debunk it by just looking at it and what they were putting fors was interesting is this an eleventh-hour a desperation attempt because I have the Geo a report here that was issued under Oracle's change it says there are six conditions why we're looking at one sole cloud although it's not a it's a multiple bid it's not an exclusive to amazon but so there's reasons why and they list six service levels highly specialized check more favorable terms and conditions with a single award expected cause of administration of multiple contracts outweighs the benefits of multiple awards the projected orders are so intricately related that only a single contractor can reasonably be perform the work meaning that Amazon has the only cloud that can do that work now I've reported on the cube and it's looking angle that it's true there's things that other clouds just don't have anyone has private they have the secret the secret clouds the total estimated value of the contract is less than the simplified acquisition threshold or multiple awards would not be in the best interest this is from them this is a government report so it seems like there's a conspiracy against Amazon where you are upon and in in this game collect you feel that collateral damage song do you do you believe that to be true collateral damage okay well okay so now the the John Wheeler guys so investigate you've been an investigator so you mean you're not you know you're not a retired into this a retired investigator you're retired investigated worked on things with Nelson Mandela Kroll Janet Reno Attorney General you've vetted by the United States government you have credibility you have relationships with people who have have top-secret clearance all kinds of stuff but I mean do you have where people have top-secret clearance or or former people who had done well we have we have the privilege of of working with a very distinguished group of senior national security leaders as operating partisan c5 and many of them have retained their clearances and have been only been able to do so because c5 had to pass through a very deep vetting process so for you to be smeared like this you've been in an investigative has you work at a lot of people this is pretty obvious to you this is like a oh is it like a deep state conspiracy you feel it's one vendor - what is your take and what does collateral damage mean to you well I recently spoke at the mahkum conference on a session on digital warfare and one of the key points I made there was that there are two things that are absolutely critical for business leaders and technology leaders at this point in time one we have to clearly say that our countries are worth defending we can't walk away from our countries because the innovation that we are able to build and scale we're only able to do because we live in democracies and then free societies that are governed by the rule of law the second thing that I think is absolutely crucial for business leaders in the technology community is to accept that there must be a point where national interest overrides competition it must be a point where we say the benefit and the growth and the success of our country is more important to us than making commercial profits and therefore there's a reason for us either to cooperate or to cease competition or to compete in a different way what might takes a little bit more simple than that's a good explanation is I find these smear campaigns and fake news and I was just talking with Kara Swisher on Twitter just pinging back and forth you know either journalists are chasing Twitter and not really doing the original courting or they're being fed stories if this is truly a smear campaign as being fed by a paid dossier then that hurts people when families and that puts corporate interests over the right thing so I think I a personal issue with that that's fake news that's just disinformation but it's also putting corporate inches over over families and people so I just find that to be kind of really weird when you say collateral damage earlier what did you mean by that just part of the campaign you personally what's what's your view okay I think competition which is not focused on on performance and on innovation and on price points that's competition that's hugely destructive its destructive to the fabric of innovation its destructive of course to the reputation of the people who fall in the line of sight of this kind of competition but it's also hugely destructive to national interest Andrae one of the key stories here with the BBC which has holes in it is that the Amazon link which we just talked about but there's one that they bring up that seems to be core in all this and just the connections to Russia can you talk about your career over the career from whether you when you were younger to now your relationship with Russia why is this Russian angle seems to be why they bring into the Russia angle into it they seem to say that c-5 Cable has connections they call deep links personal links into Russia so to see what that so c5 is a venture capital firm have no links to Russia c5 has had one individual who is originally of Russian origin but it's been a longtime Swiss resident and you national as a co investor into a enterprise software company we invested in in 2015 in Europe we've since sold that company but this individual Vladimir Kuznetsov who's became the focus of the BBC's story was a co investor with us and the way in which we structure our investment structures is that everything is transparent so the investment vehicle for this investment was a London registered company which was on the records of Companies House not an offshore entity and when Vladimir came into this company as a co investor for compliance and regulatory purposes we asked him to make his investment through this vehicle which we controlled and which was subject to our compliance standards and completely transparent and in this way he made this investment now when we take on both investors and Co investors we do that subject to very extensive due diligence and we have a very robust and rigorous due diligence regime which in which our operating partners who are leaders of great experience play an important role in which we use outside due diligence firms to augment our own judgment and to make sure we have all the facts and finally we also compare notes with other financial institutions and peers and having done that with Vladimir Kuznetsov when he made this one investment with us we reached the conclusion that he was acting in his own right as an independent angel investor that his left renova many years ago as a career executive and that he was completely acceptable as an investor so that you think that the BBC is making an inaccurate Association the way they describe your relationship with Russia absolutely the the whole this whole issue of the provenance of capital has become of growing importance to the venture capital industry as you and I discussed earlier with many more different sources of capital coming out of places like China like Russia Saudi Arabia other parts of the world and therefore going back again to you the earlier point we discussed compliance and due diligence our critical success factors and we have every confidence in due diligence conclusions that we reached about vladimir quits net source co-investment with us in 2015 so I did some digging on c5 razor bidco this was the the portion of the company in reference to the article I need to get your your take on this and they want to get you on the record on this because it's you mentioned I've been a law above board with all the compliance no offshore entities this is a personal investment that he made Co investment into an entity you guys set up for the transparency and compliance is that true that's correct no side didn't see didn't discover this would my my children could have found this this this company was in a transparent way on the records in Companies House and and Vladimir's role and investment in it was completely on the on the public record all of this was subject to financial conduct authority regulation and anti money laundering and no your client standards and compliance so there was no great big discovery this was all transparent all out in the open and we felt very confident in our due diligence findings and so you feel very confident Oh issue there at all special purpose none whatsoever is it this is classic this is international finance yes sir so in the venture capital industry creating a special purpose vehicle for a particular investment is a standard practice in c-five we focus on structuring those special-purpose vehicles in the most transparent way possible and that was his money from probably from Russia and you co invested into this for this purpose of doing these kinds of deals with Russia well we just right this is kind of the purpose of that no no no this so in 2015 we invested into a European enterprise software company that's a strategic partner of Microsoft in Scandinavian country and we invested in amount of 16 million pounds about at the time just more than 20 million dollars and subsequent in August of that year that Amir Kuznetsov having retired for nova and some time ago in his own right as an angel investor came in as a minority invest alongside us into this investment but we wanted to be sure that his investment was on our control and subject to our compliance standards so we requested him to make his investment through our special purpose vehicle c5 raised a bit co this investment has since been realized it's been a great success and this business is going on to do great things and serve great clients it c5 taking russian money no see if I was not taking Russian money since since the onset of sanctions onboarding Russian money is just impossible sanctions have introduced complexity and have introduced regulatory risk related to Russian capital and so we've taken a decision that we will not and we can't onboard Russian capital and sanctions have also impacted my investigative career sanctions have also completely changed because what the US have done very effectively is to make sanctions a truly global regime and in which ever country are based it doesn't really matter you have to comply with US sanctions this is not optional for anybody on any sanctions regime including the most recent sanctions on Iran so if there are sanctions in place you can't touch it have you ever managed Russian oligarchs money or interests at any time I've never managed a Russian oligarchs money at any point in time I served for a period of a year honest on the board of a South African mining company in which Renova is a minority invest alongside an Australian company called South 32 and the reason why I did this was because of my support for African entrepreneurship this was one of the first black owned mining companies in South Africa that was established with a British investment in 2004 this business have just grown to be a tremendous success and so for a period of a year I offered to help them on the board and to support them as they as they looked at how they can grow and scale the business I have a couple more questions Gabe so I don't know if you wanna take a break you want to keep let's take a break okay let's take a quick break do a quick break I think that's great that's the meat of it great job by the way fantastic lady here thanks for answering those questions the next section I want to do is compliment

(upbeat techno music) >> Live from Bahrain, it's theCUBE. Covering AWS Summit Bahrain. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services. >> Okay welcome back everyone, we are here in Bahrain for exclusive coverage for AWS Summit, part of Amazon's new region being launched here in the Middle East. I'm John Furrier, your host, we have two great guests from C5 Accelerator in Washington D.C., now kicking it out in Bahrain. Hadyah Fathalla, executive director C5 Accelerate and Eva Dimitriadis, good to see you again. >> Thank you. >> Chief operating officer. >> Great to be here. >> Guys, congratulations. Bahrain, D.C. >> The world. >> The world, it's global. >> Thank you, yeah. >> C5 Global. >> It's great to be here. >> It's an exciting time. I mean, I got to ask you Eva, because we had previously met, talked about interviews in D.C. Smart people that known Amazon, because Teresa and Andy Jassy and Jeff Bezos always say, "We're going to be misunderstood for a while." Come on, that's not true. (laughing) A region in this area is going to explode the entrepreneurial scene. What's your take? >> I think that's absolutely true. As we see today at the Summit, there's just such a growing number of entrepreneurs and people who are excited to embrace digital innovation. Three years ago I think the story would have been different but ever since we set up the accelerator here, which was the first once in Bahrain, we've just seen an explosion of interest and not just from Bahrain but from around the GCC. Even start ups from abroad coming and setting up here as their Middle East practice. >> Talk about C5 for a second. Let's take a minute, to explain what you guys do. I jumped ahead a little bit because I'm excited because I just love the entrepreneurial energy. This is a really important thing happening and you guys are playing a role. Talk about C5 Accelerate, what are you guys doin'? What's your business model? Just take a minute to explain as a set up. >> So I'll let Eva talk maybe more about our global operations but really C5 Accelerate a few years ago, branch the business which was largely an investment business, including innovation business and we built Bahrain's first and one the regions, in fact, first cloud enabled accelerators and Bahrain's very first technology accelerator and we did that in partnership with the Economic Development Board, the labor firm Tamkeen and obviously with AWS. Really we benefited from the first mover advantage and the thinking around that was that as Amazon grows it's geographic footprint there is great opportunity to build on the cloud in places like the Middle East where the ecosystem is nascent and there is an amazing first mover advantage. >> Yeah. >> So when we partnered with the government to build this, we realized as we do that, we also need to contribute to building a healthy ecosystem so we built this first accelerator and we have felt-- >> When was that, by the way? >> 2016. >> Great, thank you. >> Actually September marks our two year. We've since graduated five cohorts. We're gearing up for six and we have 34 start ups under our belt. Our first cohort was an all Bahraini cohort and today we're very proud to say that actually half of the start ups that have graduated from this program that is based out of Bahrain are international start ups. That's what we're doing locally. Maybe Eva can tell you a little bit more about what we're doing on a global scale. >> You know and that's important. I want to make sure you got that out about having a bunch of start ups under your belt because when I went to the start up Bahrain session yesterday I was really, really impressed by two things. One is, just the smart energy, the smart people who like understand entrepreneurship. Either went to school for it or have learned through the scar tissue of trial and tribulations like myself. And then the entrepreneurs were there themselves. >> Mm-hmm. >> And you know a healthy entrepreneurial community when they start bitchin' and moanin', they're all chirping away, they're hungry. There's a hungry appetite for entrepreneurship here and creating but it's not fake entrepreneurship. They're really hungry. They're, where's the cash? Where's the capital? So this is really a positive sign. >> It is and I want to add something really quick before Eva jumps in, I think in the past two years what's great about a small ecosystem and the ability to pivot and build fast is you actually see the impact that you can have as an individual and as a company and as a community really on the landscape. But also regionally we've had great collaborative efforts across the GCC and in the region with partners in Saudi and Kuwait and Egypt and in Jordan so I think there's a lot of momentum that we're riding on now, and I think it's a great time to be building in the tech space. >> Well Eva, before you get to your comments. I just want to follow up on the comment around Saudi and different regions because this is a trend that has been happening for a while in Silicon Valley, as you know. People have been leaving Silicon Valley, because it's cost to live there, but people have been putting engineering teams outside of Silicon Valley. I mean, 20 years ago, you only went outside of Silicon Valley or the US to outsource which is not really product development, it's just coding. Then the trend became real engineering and product development, real chops outside. We just had Abdul on from Saudi and he was talking about his shape of his team, the psychology, the make up of the people, it's just not in Saudi Arabia. It's in China, it's all over the world. As developers are working across the world, this is a really big deal. I mean this is the new dynamic. >> Yep. >> Diverse teams, geo located, no borders, this is going to change the political landscape. It's a cultural shift. >> Definitely, I mean I think it's a while before we have here the same secret sauce that exists in Silicon Valley or that has existed there for the past decade or so. But the emphasis on training and upscaling is huge and as we've heard a number of times today, there are so many incentives to do so for free so you can actually learn to code, you can become a certified AWS coder for free in Bahrain. Which is a phenomenal advantage and step up. I mean, no one would pay me to do that in the UK. I think that, along with a number of other initiatives are really going to leap frog the development here. And in terms of what you talk about, the sort of the landscape and geo location, it goes in so many different directions now. There's no single focus so we had a Swiss company last year come and incorporate in Bahrain, and hire developers here to grow their business. It can go in so many different directions. >> Yeah, the winner take all business model is an old business model and now it's everyone's winning so it's a little bit of flattening of the wealth and the opportunities but the pie is getting bigger. >> Yes. >> I think this is the dynamic that cloud and Amazon continues to demonstrate that the Oracles, for instance, of the world, we got to win it all, lock everyone in and we got to own it. That ethos is not, that dog's not hunting, as they say. This is changing the entrepreneurial landscape and the other thing I observe is the younger generation. Leveling up is very easy to them. It's like a video game, right? Leveling up is AI, blockchain, I think one of your companies I talked to, oh we're doing a blockchain implementation. They will eat up the cloud. >> Mm. >> I mean it's going to be like, pretty fast. >> You mentioned-- >> So I'm expecting some accelerated. >> Definitely. I mean you mentioned hungry but they're also fearless. The entrepreneurs that we work with have that perfect mix of a super smart idea and an understanding of a niche sector of the market but also this resilience and recklessness that you need to embrace the opportunity. And all the scary stuff that comes with it. >> And I think adding to that, I think what's great with Amazon coming to Bahrain, with us working across the globe, it's a cross pollination that happens because whether we like it or not, like Eva said, we are not Silicon Valley yet and maybe we don't aspire to be specifically Silicon Valley and we want to build our own unique ecosystem but the lessons learned from the likes of Silicon Valley and London and Singapore and China and everywhere else in the world. >> Yeah. >> Really helps build, not just the skills required but the grit that could otherwise be absent. >> The grit's key, yeah. >> And it can engender the kind of cultural shift that's necessary so you need, so you can develop these robust and resilient qualities that are necessary for a founder. >> Well, that's a really great point. I moved from the east coast in the US to California with my first start up because that's where the action was and I can tell ya, I've been there 20 years and I've been an entrepreneur doing things ever since. And there's a fallacy of trying to emulate Silicon Valley. Every i dotted, t crossed and trying to take the playbook. There's no direct match, however, there's some consistencies in there. That's grit, creativity, openness, capital markets and community and this is something that you guys kind of have in place. And then adapting that to your culture. Now I will say that my impression here is it feels a little bit Silicon Valley because it's a little bit more open and loose. People like to go fast. Fast and loose is the Silicon Valley way. Dubai's a little bit more like New York to me. So I can feel more, valley-like here. I'm not saying that Dubai's bad, I'm just saying it's different cultures. Bigger, its more ... >> There's definitely a lot of agility here. I think one of the other advantages which leads back into what C5 is as a whole, we're primarily an investment business. We have a venture capital fund based in the UK. What we're really looking for is investible, scalable business models where we're de risking the cost of capital with cloud computing because that is how ultimately these start ups scale. Another benefit that we really see in this market is value for money. If you're a start up in Silicon Valley and you get to the stage that some of our start ups get to when they finish their program, your valuation is pretty much always triple what we would see here, so valuation's a very sensitive subject. Our start ups hate talking about it. We structure our deals with them in a way that generally avoids having a valuation. >> It's very easy to do business here. You just keep on increasing the valuation, all the stars will come dropping to your doorstep. >> It's a nuanced area. >> Yeah. >> But that being said, you can get really good value for money businesses but more importantly you're investing in the teams and the entrepreneurs and there's no shortage of that here. >> Let's talk about the ecosystem here and then let's talk about the women in tech because one of the things that blew me away yesterday was Teresa Carlson held a women breakfast and for the first time I got kicked off a table because they wanted to make room for the workshop. >> Sorry about that. (laughing) >> I'm like, wait a minute. This is not an inclusive environment. Sorry, no, we need the table. Okay, I know, I was happy to tap out. But I wasn't expecting that and the energy and the, just really, again, this event, they had to lock the doors for the keynote so there's really a big interest across the board. Talk about the ecosystem and then the women in tech situation. >> So I think the ecosystem is an interesting question because, I mean, we work very collaboratively. Like I said, even though this initiative largely was kind of envisioned by the government and mainly by the Economic Development Board and I'm sure you got a chance to speak to Khalid Humaidan, he might have given you a bit of an idea of how this started off but really the EBD threw this idea of start up Bahrain to the community and said, "Look, you guys lead on it." And it took a little bit of time for the community to figure out what that really means and what it's going to look like but it really made the community and ourselves also think pragmatically about what we want this ecosystem to look like. So even though it's not as mature, like I said, as other ecosystems further away and especially in the west, it is coming together very nicely because it's coming together as a collaborative effort. You see a very good continuous consultative work between private sector, public sector, the start ups and then the other stakeholders, including ourselves, and academia. We still have a long way to go, I think specially in areas and this is something that I always emphasize, is to shift the culture you really need to start at a much younger age so at schools, at universities. We engage with them and are keen to do more on that front but I think we are laying the foundation for what I hope in the next five, 10 years will be a pretty competitive entrepreneurial and start up-- >> It might be sooner. >> Hopefully sooner. >> Yeah. >> I think we have the right recipe now to build a robust ecosystem. >> Yeah, I can say I can attest to that after what I saw yesterday. Your thoughts? >> Yeah I mean our team in Bahrain is 100% Bahraini. I'm based in London, but Hadyah here leads a phenomenal team who are all Bahraini citizens. Being the island that it is, we know everybody so Hadyah's done an excellent job of engaging with everyone from schools to universities to post grads to public sector, private sector. So really all the stakeholders in the ecosystem are engaged and everyone from the oil and gas industry to the finance sphere are thinking about how innovation can advance their businesses so that they don't get left behind at the train station. >> Yeah. >> It's really top of mind and top of agenda which is a very invigorating scenario. I think, going back to some of the initiatives, from bankruptcy laws to having a fintech bay with the Central Bank of Bahrain, there's just so much, like they're constantly pushing the envelope to make this a friendly environment for entrepreneurs to come and do business. >> And I want to add one thing. There's always this question of, does government have a role to drive innovation and create an ecosystem? >> They do. >> I think Bahrain is a good example for others in the region and even beyond to say actually government does have an important role. >> They do. >> If you look at Bahrain, it's government that has been very flexible and nimble in terms of moving to accommodate. Whether it's the new bankruptcy laws or allowing for the fintech sandbox and a cloud first policy and shaping the start up Bahrain. The government has taken the lead on a lot of these initiatives so it's a good example of how there can be a top down approach to building an entrepreneurial landscape but also where the bottom needs to come and meet the top so I think Bahrain a good example. >> Just to reiterate, my observation is that they know how to get things going and sponsor but they're also listening and self aware and even on theCUBE here, we heard comments like, we'll get out of the way. >> Mm-hmm. >> Now that's the difference between good judgment. >> Mm-hmm. >> You know? And, no, no I funded you, I own you, I mean I've seen that in the public sector or, we're going to fund you as an NGO and then I kind of own you so come to my receptions and be my show horse-- >> Mascot. >> Show all of my people how good I am, donating money. So there's a little bit of a balance between enabling. >> Yep. >> But at the end of the day, this is going to be a fast pace and that's where I think the speed, knowing when to get out of the way and letting the community go. I mean, people like speed here. Cars are driving fast, you got a Formula 1 race track up at 14 months. >> They like speed but sometimes things are surprisingly slow. >> Yes. >> So it's incredible that we are where we are. You asked about women in tech and I think there's something there that we're really proud of. C5 globally, 43% of the start up founders that we've supported through our accelerators are women. In terms of diversity, we're thrilled about that statistic. We'd like it be 50%. >> Yep. >> And I think that the Middle East, we're seeing so much hunger from women entrepreneurs and women who want to learn to code to be founders and we want to do everything in our power to enable that. >> Computer science degrees coming out of the university? >> Absolutely. Hadyah here had this fantastic idea a year ago to found what we call C5 Nebula. I'll let Hadyah talk about why we came up with that name and how it relates to our business but this is now a new stream of our business which really it's a membership platform where all women globally are invited to join and we provide education, upscaling, jogs, connectivity, mentorships and through this network we are allowing a complete globalization of the talent and skills that we have. >> Yeah. >> So you can be a student in D.C. wanting to come and volunteer to work for a company here and we will make that match happen. I think it's a very exciting phase for us and we've seen so much demand for this program. Maybe Hadyah can talk about why we came up with this name? >> Yeah, so like Eva said, we, I'm Bahraini, we've always had, we've been lucky to have been pioneering and have work very closely men and have had really equal opportunity but in industries like tech, globally, women's representation is lower than that of men and there are areas where there's still work to be done. >> A lot of work to be done, yeah. >> So last year, actually, with the first AWS Summit, when Teresa was out here, we figured we do a women in tech breakfast. When we were curating that guest list we couldn't find that many women and we didn't know if wasn't that we didn't know them or that they didn't exist and we realized really we need to put together something to bring all the women together and work more closely so we built Nebula, really to, like Eva said, do three things and a little more. One is the connectivity side of things and then the upscaling but also to raise awareness and appreciation. >> What is Nebula? >> What is? >> What is Nebula? >> So Nebula, scientifically it's an astrological, astronomical phenomenon-- >> But it's your network group, is that what it's called? >> It's a platform. >> Okay. >> So it's actually been officially launched three weeks ago, you can go online and visit it and it's a platform that allows you to become a member of Nebula and gives you access to mentorship, to opportunities to upscale and train but also to raise awareness and appreciation for the amazing opportunities for women in the tech space. >> Is there a URL? >> There is a URL, it's-- >> We've been debating what is is today. (laughing) >> It's www.c5nebula.com. >> Okay, I'll put it up, publish it with the video. >> And what it means, it's the Latin word for cloud and it's where stars are born. >> Yeah. It's also, what's important, is it's a compilation of a bunch of different clouds and electrons and it's a mess, it's a bit of a mess but it's a lot of forces working together and I guess the moral of the story is, we can create stars in the space but we all have to work together and it all has to come together to-- >> And it's powerful when you work together. >> Only 10% of VC funding worldwide goes to women founder companies and 1% of that goes to women of color so there's some staggering statistics there. Globally, this is not a Middle East problem, this is globally a real big area of disparity that we're trying to help address. >> Well you guys know our door's open in California and Boston, and certainly the women in tech, we got a big network, we can merge them into the Nebula connect our networks. >> We would love that. >> We would love that. >> We're open and anything you guys have to share with us we love co-creating with the communities, that's what we do at theCUBE. Thanks for coming on and sharing. >> Thanks for having us. >> Thank you, John. It's been a pleasure. >> You got a great mission. Big supporter. C5 Accelerate, they're the ones on the ground, making things happen, gettin' those sparks of entrepreneurship and helping them capture them into one community, create some energy and some momentum and help people create value and also capture the value, that's what it's all about here. You got Amazon Web Services' region in the Middle East, CUBE coverage continues after this short break. (upbeat techno music)

>> Live from Bahrain, it's theCUBE, covering AWS Summit, Bahrain. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services. >> Okay, welcome back everyone. We are here live in Bahrain for Amazon's Web Service Summit in the Middle East, really built around the big announcement around their region coming which would open up in Q1 2019. And Amazon full force here and really bringing together a combination of cloud-computing, cloud-native, together with the community and entrepreneurship here. And of course we wanted to save the best for last of the day interview, the entrepreneurs themselves are going to tell a straight scoop what's happening 'cause it's a lot of action here. Alharith Alatawi, who is the CEO of ONEGCC and Zaman Zaman, founder and CEO of Skiplino. Welcome to theCUBE. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you for having us. >> Thank you for having us. >> So I got to say, I was watching you guys yesterday in your little, and then Bahrain, you're on your best behavior. You didn't chirp too loud, but I can see the energy in the entrepreneurs. You know there's real entrepreneurs in the room when you can see the energy, right? And all the executives were in there, and you've got the Amazon, so you're on your best behavior banging your fists on the door. You guys are doing some good work, so congratulations. >> Thank you very much. >> So what's the real deal? What's it like here? I mean I know it's tough to get access to capital, but the government's bringing some capital to the table, there's momentum, there's opportunities. What's the straight scoop here? >> So for the past three years, when Start-up Bahrain started, there's been tremendous support from the government because they really want to see this, what they're calling the Fourth Industrial Revolution, they want it to happen. They're pushing for it. They're pushing technology start-ups. And we were really blessed to be, I mean to have started just a few months before that, so we're riding an amazing wave. We've been getting a lot of support from Tamkeen, a lot of legislation support from the government, the EDB obviously have been doing a massive job in trying to support us, getting us business. And I mean since we started til today, we've at least doubled or even tripled the amount of clients we have. And there's a lot of attention now to technology start-ups. And I think as a growing sector, Bahrain, we're really reaping the fruits of it. >> And what is your start-up, ONEGCC? Just take a minute to explain what your start-up's doing, how many people you've got going on, the stage of the opportunity. >> So before I founded or co-founded ONEGCC, I was in an investment firm, and one of our investments was in Saudi. It was called a mega-recruitment company. And what we were trying to do is, we had 500,000 work permits. We had to bring a bunch of people and start outsourcing them to companies, but the Ministry of Labor still wanted us to maintain Saudization within these companies that we're working with. And it was a very tough challenge trying to find the right GCC nationals, the right Saudis. I mean 40% of them hold degrees in Humanitarian Islamic Studies, so how do you place all of these when most of the jobs that are being offered are in construction, retail, and other services? So that's when we started ONEGCC. We said you know what, we'll hire people based on skills rather than their job titles or academic background. And that's really where we started ONEGCC. >> So it solves your own problem? >> Exactly. >> You had a little pain there. >> Well today it's our own problem. >> Yeah, now you have a bigger problem. It's called growth. >> (laughs) Yeah, but tomorrow it's going to become a global problem with AI and smart machines wiping out almost maybe 70%. >> So how many people involved in the start-up? What's the stage, would you call it? >> So today we have 18 employees. We're still early stage, but we're growing as well as we can. >> Great. Tell us about your story here. >> Well, mine was a multi-lingual intelligent queue management system. So we realized there was a gap in the market. >> First, explain what a queue management system is, and remember 'queue' is not an American word. That's an English word, or international word. Queue is 'line' they call it in America. >> Okay, let's say line management. >> But we're talking about physical standing in line at the bank. >> Yes. When you go there, you actually take a token and wait. So we realized it was a problem not only in Bahrain. It was a global problem. What we did was, we went to investigate the issue. How it started was, I went to a bank a day before I traveled, and I had to wait for one hour and forty-five minutes just to clear a check. So I found that not acceptable. So what we did was go study the markets. And we realized that was like three or four players controlling the market for the past thirty years. Some people tried to do it cloud-based, but they didn't get it right because they didn't cater to those segments, which is the large B2B clients that need to scale or have a large number of branches. So when we decided to go and build it on the cloud, we realized that there is no performance management on each agent that is live and was streamed. So when we built the reports, we realized that most of it is bottlenecks that can be solved with AI or machine learning. So we incorporated that into Skiplino. Now Skiplino has around 2,500 companies from around the globe in 196 countries. And it's now in 69 languages. >> That's amazing. How many people in your opportunity, working with you? >> Including founders, we're around 15. >> Fifteen, great. Well congratulations, and one of the things I wanted to kind of get here while we're broadcasting around the continent and around cloud is, I live in Silicon Valley, so everyone's got the entrepreneurial bug going on, but you have successes and failures. That's the way it works. You've got to try something and hit the homeruns once in a while, but you got to get a couple base hits. It's really hard. I mean people don't understand how hard it is, right? If they've never done it, it's hard as hell. So, but having the ecosystem support is key, but Start-up Bahrain is doing some good work with EDB. What is the key requirement and what's the need? Where is it working, are you guys seeing on the ground here? Because the community's there and that's a check. That's hard to do. I mean robust entrepreneur community's good, and there's money. So now you've just got to fill in the blank. What is the cloud going to bring you guys? What are you guys hoping for? What do you want to see? >> Of course with the cloud, the best thing that comes with the cloud is scalability, for us. In effect, we're removing the unpremised queue management systems businesses, but the good thing that's happening in Bahrain, and around the GCC too, is ministries and governments are more receptive for additional transformation, and they know that's the only way to keep up. So actually we're the first cloud-based service the Bahraini government used. >> And you're using Amazon now? >> No, (laughs) we're actually a Microsoft concept partner. >> Oh, okay. >> We're the first. >> Are you using Azure? >> Yes. >> Okay, makes sense. Great partner. >> Because we usually deal with banks and telecoms. Microsoft always has a foot in the door there, but we are thinking of having an AWS structure, too. >> It's okay, use it here. It is what it is, a multi-cloud world we're living in. How about your solution? >> So actually we were in the first cohort of C5 Accelerate, which is a program supported by AWS, so we are on AWS, and obviously for us, as a start-up, setting up in the beginning, we have limited resources, and setting up on the cloud just makes it so much easier. >> Yeah, a no-brainer. Not a decision. >> Exactly. >> You got to go to cloud. If you do a start-up and you're not on the cloud, you're spending too much cash. >> (laughs) Exactly. >> It's just the way it is. It's the dumbest thing you should ever do. Unless there's a prototype and you want it next to you, like a puppy and a dog or whatever pet, kind of thing, a security issue. Other than that, there's no reason. >> And it's faster to set up. It's easier for us to reach a wider audience. When we do reach the wider audience- >> What do you think about the show here? What was your walk-away? Obviously you guys are in the middle of the community. We're here for the first time. I was really impressed and I learned a lot, and I made some observations that I didn't expect to have that were really positive. It was a good experience for me, but you guys live it every day. Amazon's in town. There's good dynamics going on. What's your impression? >> Impression on what? >> This show, Amazon's presence, the community coming together. Everyone came here from the gulf states. >> I think one of the main things that we needed to happen in the system is that mind shift. So corporates to start adopting start-up technologies, and for investors who are used to investing in traditional investments and real estate to start actually investing in start-ups. So I think AWS really helped in that mind shift. I think the work that EDB is doing also is helping that mind shift. Now we're seeing more angel investors who are interested in getting into the tech start-up space and more corporates are willing to adopt our technologies, even though they're fairly new. >> Your thoughts on the show? >> It definitely shined a spotlight on Bahrain. Getting Amazon to open AWS in Bahrain is, first of all, we're getting a lot of talent that's going to come in and be trained to set up. So it's a huge- >> It's like you guys are standing around. The metaphor, I'm imagining, you're standing around, you're working on some things, you're hustling, you're scrapping, you're smart. And then all of a sudden, a big resource generator just pops down and says, hey entrepreneurs, I was built for you. >> Yeah. >> And you're there and now you're present at creation. And when you're present at creation of a movement that has this much growth because let's face it, this is going to be growth, and you guys are going to be the leaders. >> Yeah. >> Hopefully. >> So you got to pay it forward. You have big responsibilities. >> Hopefully. >> And you going to make some money along the way, too. I mean, you know the old expression. >> No pressure, huh? (laughs) >> You know the expression, "Hang around the barber shop, "you'll get a haircut." So this is, "Hang around the cloud, "you're going to create some value." So you've got to capture it. So this is the dynamic that I see as an entrepreneur. I was like, damn, if I lived here, I'd be setting up shop. I'd have five companies going on. I'd be telling all my friends to come on in. >> Because you're in the ground floor right now. >> You're present at creation. We're going to start covering you guys, and do some work with you guys. I'm already convinced. >> It's a big wave, and we're happy to be riding it. >> We're going to collaborate with you guys. I think it's a really unique thing. I mean at this scale, it's unprecedented. I mean this is Amazon. I mean in the U.S. everyone is jockeying for where Amazon's next headquarters is going to be, and literally, people are freaking out, like, come to my state. Because they know, with it come jobs, services. It's like putting up a sports stadium, and all of a sudden there's all these new things around it, right? >> Sure. >> It's going on, >> Exactly. >> So this is going to be a big opportunity. >> It's huge. >> For start-ups. So you guys are going to be reaping the rewards. >> Hopefully. >> You hungry? >> We are. (all laughing) >> You have no idea. >> I'm from California. In America, it's like we call it the wave. Get your surfboard, get out there. A lot of sets coming in. So congratulations. Thanks for sharing. >> Thank you very much. >> Thank you for coming to Bahrain. It's a pleasure having you. >> Looking forward to working more with you guys. >> Definitely a pleasure. >> Thank you, John. >> Okay, we're here in Bahrain. That's a wrap. We're wrapping up with the founders and CEOs. This is the entrepreneurial action here and the signs are all pointing towards growth. Amazon Web Service is going to bring cultural revolution, economic, society, people, all going to be coming here, for the region, not just Bahrain, but all around the region. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE. Thanks for watching.

>> Narrator: Live from Washington, D.C. It's Cube Conversations with John Furrier. (techno music) >> Hello everyone, welcome to our special on the ground presentations, The Cube coverage in Washington, D.C. I'm John Furrier, the co-founder of SiliconANGEL, the host of the Cube. We are getting all the stories on what's happening with the innovation and entrepenuership in our societal nonprofits and/or innovation in government. We hear Peter Prix is the OneRelief app founder, onereliefapp.com, OneRelief is your venture. You're part of the PeaceTech Accelerator. We're here at the United States Peace Institute in D.C. Tell us about your opportunity. >> Great pleasure. Yes, my name is Peter, CEO and founder of OneRelief, the OneRelief app. What we do is let people like you and me make quick donations, micro donations to disaster relief aid. So after emergency has struck, Hurricane Maria, last year in September, approaching the Caribbean Islands. We all knew about it, we all saw those pictures on TV. And we all felt empathy and wanted to help and wanted to gift, but there's no easy way. So what we do with the OneRelief web app is we let people like you and me easily, with the click of a button, make quick donations that supports certified disaster relief agencies on the ground. >> And you guys are a start up here at the PeaceTech Accelerator. >> Exactly, we're a startup here at the PeaceTech Accelerator. >> Great, well I'm really bullish and I think crowdsourcing has opened up the democratization of giving, which has been phenomenal. But there's some scale issues, now there's ten zillion apps, certainly GoFundMe, we know about those things. They're kind of peer-to-peer. You know, friend has to socialize with that but you know, a lot of folks are wondering, hey, if I donate to that Haiti situation, or hurricane, where does the money go? We heard in Puerto Rico, half the stuff didn't even get there. This is a big fear, cognitive dissonance from the giver. Do you guys solve that problem? >> Yes, so absolutely. When it comes to giving at the moment you can choose between giving to the big players, the big charities that we don't trust, as we know. Or you can go on a platform like GoFundMe and there's actually 12,000 fundraisers for Hurricane Maria. And you don't know who to trust either. So what we do in OneRelief is we provide a marketplace, a platform that is certifying charities with confirmed people on the ground. And when you make a donation through the platform you actually get an update. You get a status notification, help has been embarked, help has arrived in a community. You get visuals, you get video of what's happening on the ground. And you get feedback at the end of the disaster of what has actually been achieved with the money you've donated. >> So you close in the loop from the giver, from the journey of the money to the destination, and seeing the impact of it. >> Absolutely. From the second you press the donate button and you donate and you share a fundraiser, you can see how the money is getting to the country, how the money's being used, what it's being used for, and what the progress of that is, providing you information on the impact of your donation and closing the loop and encouraging you the next time another disaster happens to donate again. >> Create some reliability. You're essentially verifying the end points of where the cash goes. >> Peter: Absolutely. >> How's it going? How far along are you guys? Sounds like a great idea, I think it's an awesome idea. Getting a little dashboard, seeing the impact, make people feel good, know their money's going to work. How do you get this off the ground? You're in the Accelerator, what's the status? >> Absolutely, we're about three weeks away from the launch of the platform, it will be launched on March 1st, so we are in the final push of getting the app off the ground. We have partners, we have contracts signed with, for example, Action Against Hunger, where agencies that have country offices that have been working in the countries that are very often struck by crises for many many years. So it's not that their money goes to a small charity that we've never heard of and are not able to get any accountability information, but it's going to certified agencies that have people on the ground. >> And they're excited by this, it sounds like. >> Oh they are more than excited. It's changing the entire industry. It's rather than the rich people signing big checks it's people like you and me small donations that have an impact of changing the world. And what the OneRelief app is really special and good at it's the speed at what this happens. So, a disaster strikes, within hours, the fundraiser's online on social media and people can donate. >> And one of the great things about us covering Gov Cloud, we've observed that bringing a modern stack like cloud you can actually radically transform these industries that have technology going in some cases so antiquated they don't know what's running on. >> Oh no, absolutely. So, the platform itself is running on AWS and we use serverless cloud technology that allows us to really scale the platform, whether a thousand people donate or a million people donate at the same time it's running on a serverless cloud. >> So you're providing critical infrastructure services for donations , big or small? >> Absolutely, and it's 100% scalable, which wasn't able a few years ago. >> How is the accelerator helping you, PeaceTech? >> Yeah, a really interesting question in multiple ways, both through mentoring support that we get through the partners that bring incredible support and help us really in getting the platform off the ground. AWS helps helps us with setting it up on lambda, that's wonderful. We have C5 who gives us some really interesting support in how we can operate this as a nonprofit with a tech startup mechanism. We have partners like the PeaceTech Lab that helps us really operate as a nonprofit. >> We've been covering AI for Social Good Intel among other partners. Really kind of look at this, not just as a philanthropy opportunity, real change. But what's interesting to us us we've reported on SiliconANGLE is the societal entrepreneurship market is booming in D.C. Can you comment about what it's like here? I mean, is that right? Obviously Silicon Valley where we live you get a lot of the tech alpha tech guys out there. But here it's like non-profits. What old ways of doing things are now kind of becoming more entrepreneurial because of cloud? What's your reaction to that? >> No, absolutely, I think Washington, D.C. Is the best place for us to be at. It's a mix of government, non-profits, and foundations that come in. There's a lot of, actually a lot of young startups coming up, impact startups. There's lots of coworking spaces. And we can really feel it. This is the most conducive environment for us as a startup to grow and to thrive getting support from partners that we need. >> Societal entrepreneurship as a category, I mean, I don't even know if that's the name of it, what do you call it, is booming. Can you share any anecdotes, is it booming, is it just emerging? What's your thoughts? >> Societal entrepreneurship. Yes, what the OneRelief platform really does, it allows everyone to give. It is enabling every citizen in the world to make a quick donation an amount that every one of us can afford. >> Final question, what's your core challenges as you get through the accelerator, look to go to market, is it the partnerships, is it the tech? What are your core challenges? >> I think it's really clearly communicating how OneRelief is different and how it is not like all the other platforms out there, how we are the one stop shop in a marketplace that is connecting people who want to do good with receiving charities on the ground. >> How do you compare and contrast to say these other crowdsourcing and crowdfunding platforms? >> Yes, on the one hand there's the big players, the big charities that we don't trust, that we want to give directly to because we don't know what happens with the money. And there's peer-to-peer fundraising that we don't trust either because they're tiny and we don't know who's setting up those fundraisers. We are right in between. We are a platform that is connecting the donor with a certified charity. >> How about emerging technologies like blockchain which has been very popular in supply chain-like things, because you're basically an end-to-end supply chain of money moving to the end point, the relief or whatever. >> Peter: Yeah! >> Good use of blockchain? No? Are you thinking about that? >> Oh no, absolutely. We actually have an innovation lab that is only purely looking at blockchain from different angles. One of them is for us to accept crypto donations and to be the first platform on the market that is accepting micro donations in cryptocurrency. And secondly, we are looking at blockchain technology and running a hyperledger project at the moment to see how we can accelerate the speed at how long it takes to get the donation from when a person makes it into the receiving bank account on the ground in country xyz in the world. >> A whole new infrastructure wave is coming, you're seeing it decentralize applications and hardened end-to-end apps like you guys. >> Yeah, no, absolutely. >> Well, congratulations Peter. Thanks for joining me here. This is the Cube Conversation on the ground here in Washington, D.C. where emerging markets and nonprofits and just ventures for good are now the new entrepreneurship craze in Washington, D.C. It's the center of the action and with cloud and modern software and blockchain and things of that nature you can make it happen. Thanks for watching. (techo music)

>> Narrator: Live from Las Vegas, it's theCube covering AWS re:Invent 2017 presented by AWS, Intel, and our ecosystem of partners. (upbeat music) >> Okay, welcome back everyone. We're here live in Las Vegas. This is theCube's exclusive coverage of Amazon Web Services re:Invent 2017, our fifth year covering AWS re:Invent. I'm John Furrier the founder of SiliconANGLE Media with my co-host Stu Miniman. I'm so excited 45,000 people and boy, I remember when it was just a small, little, fast-growing company. We're here with Teresa Carlson who's been here with us the whole way. She's a Senior Vice President of Public Sector. Teresa, welcome to theCube, good to see you. >> I'm always glad to be here on theCube. >> So, you've been running public sector, you've been really, I've gotta say, I gave a tweet, not to sound that I'm fawning over you right now, but you've really grown the business in a significant way. As Andy was saying, a meaningful way. Take us through, because it's almost mind-blowing. We have already had a few guests on theCube. I went to your breakfast. You are changing the game, but not without scar tissue. You've done a lot of hard work to get there, so, one, congratulations, but give us a state-of-the-union right now for public sector, because you're winning, you're doing great, but it wasn't easy. >> No, it's not been easy, but it's been a lot of fun. I mean, it's been a lot of fun, in fact, as you said, this is our sixth year of doing re:Invent and yesterday or two days ago, we had a public sector breakfast and it was so full, we got shut down by the fire marshal. So that is when you know you've got customers and partners showing up, because they want to be there. We have grown significantly and that has been through the work of both working with customers and partners on security, compliance, policy, acquisition vehicles, to just make sure that we have the right balance of everything needed to really drive and grow the business in the right way. As I've talked about we didn't leave any stone unturned. We had to really go through all the hard processes to do this right and I think it really has paid off because you never want to take short-cuts. You wanna make sure you're doing the right thing in order for customers to have better technology, for us to help drive good government, good education. >> I gotta say, one of the big trends we're seeing here on siliconANGLE, theCube, and Wikibon is the public-private Partnerships are accelerating. You're seeing public sector help on security to the private sector, private sector helping government move faster and so you're seeing a balance and an equilibrium coming together, but also old guard companies sometimes have a federal division or a separate DNA culture. You guys don't, you have one culture at Amazon, but the striking thing for me, is that you're now enabling companies to get into public sector that couldn't before. So I wanted to ask you specifically, is it like that now, we're you're starting to see new people come in with solutions because you guys have done that heavy lifting where before they'd have to wait in line, get certified, are we seeing new solutions, are you enabling that, is that actually happening? >> It absolutely is happening and we never forget our roots of start-ups here at AWS, because they are really a huge reason why we exist and for public sector, I saw a change in my previous life I never had venture capitalists or private equity firms come and say we want our companies in government. We are creating new education tech companies, which was really not even heard of. >> It's a growth strategy for them. >> It's a huge growth strategy, so venture capitalist and private equity like Andreessen Horowitz, Madrona, C5, Bridgewater, we see tons and they come to us saying, we have this portfolio, can you help us talk to them about how they get into government? As a result of that, we do sales and marketing, we work with them on FedRAMP I-E slash security compliance. We ensure that they understand the elements and components of how they work in government and by the way, government loves that we are bringing in innovative new technologies. We can also do that through the marketplace, the AWS marketplace, which allows them to move faster, be more agile, and start getting that business. >> Teresa, I'm wondering if you could share a little more. You talk about innovation, we've been lovin' for years, I love when I talk about regional governments, education, you get non-profits under your umbrella, where it used to be, I didn't have the budget, I can't move fast. Now, we're seeing some great innovation from the private side as well as well as some of the public-private interactions. >> Definitely, in fact, I was in California about a month ago where we announced an innovation center with California Polytechnic University, CalPoly and the president there, Jeff Armstrong, it is amazing, they literally had been looking at what AWS was doing and they took the pillars that they'd been seeing us talk about for public sector and they created an innovation center to work on these opportunities and challenges and just as in public safety, health, agri, sex trafficking and child exploitation, through seeing what Thorn was doing in the International Center for Missing and Exploited Children. >> How is this leveling the playing field? Because everyone, citizens at least in the United States, I'm sure it's happening in other markets as well, they want the government to move faster. And you guys are like the freight train that's out of control speed-wise, just more and more services. How does the government keep up? Because I would imagine that if I am a government official or I'm the public sector, oh my God, I can't handle Amazon. I can't ride that beast, it's too strong. I mean do they say that, is that the wrong vibe, or are they more hey I want you to do, is it more your flywheel, do they have to get involved? What's the relation, what's the sentiment of the government? >> Well, they wanna move fast. In fact, in the U.S. government, the White House does have an entire initiative now on modernization. You're seeing countries like the U.K government go cloud native. You saw the country of Bahrain which is going all-in in the cloud and they've already established new policies and a cloud-first policy of moving. But I would tell you, if you look at groups like the intelligence community in the U.S. government, we just announced our secret region and that allows them to have top-secret capabilities, secret, unclassified in our GovCloud, so they have capabilities across the entire spectrum of workloads and what they've always said to us and our other customers is can we build cloud tools, can we build a cloud? Yes, but can we innovate at the rate and speed you're innovating? No, because we provide them innovation ahead of their demand. >> Yeah, Teresa, I remember when GovCloud launched and it was, like, wow, this is like AWS isn't just like a monolithic service around the globe and everything. It seems like secret region goes along that line. How does the dynamic between AWS as a whole and what you're doing in your organization, how do you work through that and kinda balance, I want services around the globe, yet meet the needs of your clients. >> On the GovCloud region, that was our first entre into doing something unique for government. That region has grown 185% every year since 2011 and we just announced a second region on the east coast for GovCloud, U.S. GovCloud. The interaction with our services team is amazing. Charlie Bell who runs all of our services, we have a tight relationship, we talk to our government customers in these regions, understand their priorities, then we roll them out and it's really that simple. They get the exact same thing in their classified regions as we give our other customers, it's just their network. >> Well, you got the date set, I'm looking at my picture here I took, June 20th and 21st, save the date, AWS Public Sector Summit, #AWSPSSummit as it's called on Twitter hashtag. Every year, you started out in a little conference room, in a ballroom, bigger hotel, now the convention center. Massive growth. >> And theCube was there this year, which I was happy. >> That makes it legitimate, and theCube's there, we'll be there this year, >> Good, yes. >> But of course, this is the growth. V.C.s, private equity, this is a growth market, this is not a unique, siloed market anymore. You guys have leveled the silos within Amazon, I mean you never had silos, but you are now agile to come to the government. What's next for you? You've done a great job, you're now cruising altitude, what's your growth strategy for Public Sector Summit, how are you going to take it to the next level? >> Well, even though we have grown a lot, thank you to our customers and partners, we really are just scratching the surface. It is day one still for us. Our customers are really just still getting going on a lot of mission critical workloads. They're moving in things they really hadn't thought about. They're starting to do things like higher more developers in government, so they can take advantage of the tools used, a lot you saw yesterday. But additionally, what we're seeing is we are spending a lot of time going into countries around the world, helping countries set a strategy for digital transformation. New jobs growth, new companies, economic development, how do they train and educate for a cloud-based workforce, we call it and that's really fun to go in and tell governments, look you really have to prepare your country for a digital transformation and again if you look at groups like Bahrain, what the U.K have done, they are doing that and they are making a massive transformation around this. >> Final question for you, what are you most proud of looking back since you joined AWS seven years ago. I think it was seven years ago you started? >> Yep, seven years ago this month. >> Congratulations, so what are you most proud of and then two, what do you think about the most as you execute day-to-day in growing the business? >> Well, I would say the fact that I have had an amazing brand to work with out of the gate Amazon was such a great brand, and the fact that, again, based on think big, Andy Jassy's leadership, really he and I having a conversation together saying, we can change the world and make it a better place and you've heard me say a lot in my openings, we have two themes that we talk about in public sector, which is paving the way for disruptive innovation and making the world a better place. And if I look back, it's really the things that we're helping to do this that we are driving new policies, companies are seeing results, agencies, and we are making the world a better place. I would say that's humbling and amazing and we're just getting going. >> As a chief of public sector, you're like, you've seen it grow and you're running it every day and you have a great team, do you ever have a pinch me moment once in a while? Kind of say, wow, what have you done? >> Well, I think the pinch me moments are when I hear the customers and partners tell me how fast they're moving and the results they have. We always have a goal of really working with our mission partners and we've hired now more than 17,000 veterans at Amazon and growing. It's things like that that we can do to really help that transformation and not just talk the talk, but walk the walk as a company. I would say for where we wanna go and what I sort of worry about our growth, I guess I worry and stay up a little late at night to make sure that we keep our hiring bar high, that we really maintain our focus on customer obsession, >> John: Security. >> Security is always on my mind. >> Do you sleep at all it must keep you up late a lot. >> No, I don't really, no. But the last thing I would say is just really thinking through ensuring that we're continually pushing hard, that we have a little bit of sharp elbows, going in we're trying to change policy, we don't give up on the things that really matter for doing this massive transformation, for countries, for state and local agencies, for feds, for educational institutions around cloud transformation. >> I really respect your results and I love your hard-charging style. It's fantastic, your success obviously speaks for itself. We'll see you at the Summit in June. This is theCube, Teresa Carlson The Chief of the Public Sector business, she's the Vice President of Public Sector. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman. More live coverage here at AWS re:Invent after this short break. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live, from Las Vegas, it's the Cube, covering AWS Re:invent 2017 presented by AWS, Intel, and our ecosystem of partners. >> Welcome back everyone, we're here live in Las Vegas for 45,000 tech industry folks and customers with Amazon re:Invent 2017. This is the Cube's exclusive coverage, I'm John Furrier, with my co-host Justin Warren this segment. Our next guest, Bill Magro, is the Chief Technologist for Intel covering HPC high performance computing. Bill, welcome to the Cube. >> Thank you. >> John: Thanks for coming on. You guys, your booth's behind us, I don't if they can see it in the wide shot, but Intel is really taking advantage of the I don't want to say Intel inside the Cloud 'cause that's really what you guys are doing, but you got so much compute, this is your wheelhouse. Compute is what Intel is. >> Bill: Right. >> Andy Jassy at AWS, talking with their customers, they want more compute, edge of the network, so HPC, high performance computing's been around for awhile. What's the state of the art and how should people think about HPC versus the Cloud, are they the same, what's the relationship? >> Intel actually thinks of HPC or high performance computing more in terms of the activity and the workloads than the infrastructure that it runs on. So very early in the days of Cloud computing, there were a lot of people who said that the Cloud was kind of the opposite of HPC and therefore, they could never go together. But we think of Cloud as a delivery vehicle, a way to get access to compute storage networking and HPC is what you're doing. And so then, if you think about HPC as kind of a range of workloads, you can start to think about which ones are a good fit for the Cloud, and which ones aren't. So we talk a little bit about the high performance computing and tailored infrastructure for the most extreme cases of HPC. That's where you see the biggest differences with Cloud, 'cause they're at opposite ends of the spectrum. >> But you see holistically the Cloud is interplaying with HPC. >> Yeah. >> They're not mutually exclusive. >> Absolutely, we see Cloud as a way to deliver HPC capabilities. So if you think of the most demanding HPC problems, the ones that are used in national security, that are used to design commercial airplanes, and so on, those are some of the hardest problems. Predicting the climate change, predicting the weather, paths of hurricanes, those are what we call grand challenge problems. Those are not running in the Cloud. Those are running on dedicated, tailored, infrastructure built for high performance computing at that extreme. And those systems have a lot of characteristics such as very high performance networks, different from ethernet, custom topologies and are designed with software to really minimize variation because it's one large problem that has to move forward. The Cloud is kinda the opposite in a sense. It started as taking a large amount of resources and making it possible to carve them up, right. It's the opposite of aggregating resources. And so that's where a lot of the early thoughts of Cloud and HPC being at odds with each other. >> It seems to be a dream scenario because I mean, in the old days, in 80s and 90s when I was breaking into the business. If you were a database guy or a compute guy, you were a specialist, it was high end kind of computing. Moore's Law, certainly Intel, you guys took advantage of it. But now, you see so much, it's cool to do more compute. So like, it's been democratized. Databases and compute, certainly in all the conversations, for everybody, not just, the technologists. >> Right, where that's where Cloud fits in for HPC. So if you think of HPC in terms of the characteristics of the workload, it's something that's really demanding computationally. The product of the computation is like an intellectual insight. You can design a better airplane wing, a safer car, you can figure out where that hurricane is going and tell which people to evacuate. There's an intellectual product to the compute. And then the last characteristic is when you apply more compute power appropriately, you get a more valuable result. So it could be better prediction of that hurricane path, it could be a safer car because you have more time, you have more capability and were able to build a better design ahead of that deadline to get that model year of the car out. And so, if you think about that, there's a lot, there's a broad spectrum and I talked about some of those most extreme problems, but even in something like designing an airplane, there might be 16, 20, a hundred different small design variations you want to explore. Well those can actually be great for The Cloud, 'cause they're small calculations and you run many of them at the same time. And the elastic capability of The Cloud augments the supercomputer that you might be using to run your hardest problems. >> So the aperture of problem-solving is huge now. >> Bill: That's right. >> You can do more. I mean we had Thorn on yesterday. Thorn was a company that partners with Intel to do, you know, find missing and exploited children. AI for good, so everything's possible. >> Yeah even AI we think of as an example of a high performance computing workload because what does it do? It gives you insights that you didn't have otherwise, it's compute intensive, and it does better when you apply more resources. So that fits our definition. So AI is definitely under the umbrella of high performance computing. >> One of the things, one of the great benefits of Cloud is the elasticity which you mentioned before. It's like, and some of the, we know that Amazon's just brought out the C5 Instances which is a specific instance site, which would be quite useful for HPC. But what is it about the bursting workloads or that elasticity that specifically works well for HPC do you think? >> Well, there's a couple use cases that we think are particularly relevant. One of them is an existing company. Just imagine some Fortune 50 manufacturer. They have a lot of stuff that they really need to build their own supercomputer for, their own high performance computing system, but their usage, even though they keep that system busy all the time, there is some variability and they have opportunity costs of an engineer sitting while their job is in the queue, 'cause you're paying that engineer but you're not giving them insights, right. And so the Cloud can augment that, but we have a lot of examples of large Fortune 500, Fortune 50 companies augmenting their on-premise with Cloud as a way to push those workloads that can run on the Cloud there, to free up those on-prem resources which are much more tailored, much more expensive and get more value out of them. >> Okay, and what's Intel doing to help customers figure out which of those workloads is best suited for Cloud and which ones are better suited for something which is running on site? >> Well, it's mostly through our influencer sales force who engages with many, many major companies and provides consulting, because Intel doesn't sell computers directly to anyone, so it's more of a knowledge, our knowledge and sharing that with people. And what we're trying to help enterprises understand is what workloads need to stay on premise, which ones can go to the Cloud and how this, the elasticity of the Cloud can augment those on-premise resources and thus, you know, go back and forth. >> It's the classic mission for Intel, make the apps go faster, faster, smaller, cheaper, right. >> And get 'em land in the right place. So really, the two biggest considerations we find in deciding whether a workload goes into the Cloud or stays on-premise in high performance computing are the following, one, is really the sensitivity of the IP. There's a lot of workloads that could run in the Cloud and people simply want to keep it on-premise 'cause they're more comfortable knowing that their IP is sitting inside their own firewall. Though the reality is, more and more companies are getting comfortable with Cloud security as they see data breaches. And realize that some of the big Cloud providers, like Amazon, maybe have better access to the security talent than they do. >> I think Goldman-Sachs just announced they're going all in. That's Goldman-Sachs, they never do a testimonial. >> So the privacy and the sensitivity of the data is king, you know, you have to be willing to put it in the Cloud. Then the second question is, is it a technical fit? And that's where this spectrum of workloads comes in. The bigger a workload goes and the more you want to speed it up but keep the workload the same size, that's what we call strong scaling and that starts to stress the network, and stress the system. And that's where these tailored systems come in. And so, you have to look at where things fall on the spectrum. A good example of workloads that would fit is these design space explorations, anything we would call pleasingly parallel or embarrassingly parallel in the industry where the communication does happen, but it's not the limiter of the calculation. So screening for a drug candidates, for personalized medicine, lot of life sciences applications, financial services is a good fit, in manufacturing a design space exploration maybe for different designs and materials for a dashboard or a component of a car. >> Bill, when you were at your Thanksgiving dinner and your family or wherever, you're moving around in your personal life, you're a technologist. How do explain the phenomenon of Amazon Web Services and the Cloud action right now? Because, you know, you're in it every day. You're close to all the action. But I get asked all the time, what's the hub-bub about AWS and it's hard to explain the phenomenon. How would describe the, I mean you're talking about tailored systems, elasticity, I mean it's a tech dream. I mean, how do you explain it to like a normal person? >> The conversation's usually pretty short because my family involves a historian, an English major, an accountant and people who really couldn't have, a musician, a singer, people who really don't have the slightest interest in technology. >> It's hard to talk about lambda, when you're. >> So I'm really the only technologist in my family so I just avoid it, but the question does come up with my parents. You know, parents like to brag on their kids so they like to know what you do, and every year my mom asks me what I do and I try to explain high performance computing to her and she says, oh, I don't get it. But when you explain it in terms of things like climate modeling and being able to support the nuclear test ban that's worldwide, that's done with high performance computing. Safing cars, finding missing children, better quality of life through all the AI that we're now experiencing. >> John: Analytics is a great use case. >> Then people say, oh, you know, they can understand the use cases. The elasticity of the Cloud, really is not something that I discuss with family, but even coworkers, I think, that's what the conversation focuses on. Recognizing that high performance computing is a range of workloads. >> Okay, so I'll rephrase it differently. What's your perspective on, what observations that you get excited about that are enabled now by these new use cases? 'Cause there's new things now that are possible. The number of computations, you got analytics, you mentioned a few of them. What jumps out at you, wow, that's really awesome, we can do that now? >> You know, this is gonna sound a little odd, and maybe not what you expected, but I'm not actually a technology enthusiast, believe it or not, despite. I think technology's cool, I like what it does, but I don't get super excited about technology. One of the things that I'm excited about with the Cloud is probably at the opposite extreme of what you would expect which is, back to, how does the elasticity of the Cloud fit? There's so many companies in this world who could benefit from high performance computing and don't today. A recent study showed that 95 percent of U.S. small medium manufacturers which is over 300,000 are not using HPC today. And so, as they're part of this supply chain, whether it's into a Boeing or and Airbus or a Lockheed Martin or a Honda or a Toyota, there's this whole supply chain. HPC's being used at the top, it's not being used at the bottom, so I think the Cloud is actually really, really exciting because it allows somebody to get over those initial hurdles, the cap-ex, getting access to pay as you go, prove the value proposition, because a small medium business actually has to take a risk to use HPC. They have to divert capital and divert resources. And they could lose a contract. >> So do you see a lot more companies starting to take advantage of some of this high performance computing capability just because it's now, you can rent it by the hour and try it out, give it a bit of a whirl, and then see, actually this is going to be really valuable for us, and then deploy a lot more of it. >> Exactly and that's one of the key things we're promoting is 'cause we want to bring more people into the world of high performance computing. So, AWS provides all the building blocks. Compute, elastic storage and so on. But high performance computing applications really expect a specific type of platform that they can run on, and that platform aggregates the resources so there's a number of companies Rescale is one, Psycho-Computing, and others who are actually providing that platform layer. And then once you've got the platform layer, all the, I'll call it the, geeky stuff that they do, AWS has abstracted away. Now the applications can run and that's that's what's bringing new users in. >> Bill, final question for you. AWS launched its C5 Instances. What's that about, what's it mean for customers? Can you explain a little bit more on that one piece? >> Sure, we're delighted to see Amazon deploying the C5 Instances. It's based on our latest technology in the Xeon product family. We call that the Intel Xeon scalable processor family. It includes, it's based on what we call Skylake technology or code name Skylake. There's a lot of innovations in that processor and that platform that are specifically driven by the needs of high performance computing. There's something called AVX 512, which is a doubling of the vector width. Means that every core can actually do 32 floating point, double-precision floating point operations per clock. That's tremendous, tremendous compute capability, in a 2X over the previous generation. On the memory bandwidth side, which is another huge factor for high performance computing applications, like 66 percent increase in memory bandwidth. So it's a balanced platform, and we're seeing improvements in high performance computing apps of anywhere from 1.7x sometimes almost up to 5x improvement in going from the C4 to C5 Instances on a per note basis. >> This is really going to enable a lot of action. IOT, tons of great stuff. >> Absolutely and as I talked about that range of HPC and you know, what fits and what doesn't fit in the Cloud, every generation of technology, what fits in the Cloud is growing, and C5 is another important step in that direction. >> Bill, thanks for coming on the Cube. Bill Magro, Chief Technologist at Intel, HPC, high performance computing. The Cloud is one big high performance machine in the sky, wherever you want to look at it, really great opportunity at enabling all new use cases, doing things for society benefits, and customers. Great stuff here, Cloud impact is significant. IOT to the Cloud. This is the Cube, doing our share here at AWS in Las Vegas. We'll be right back with more coverage after this short break. (electronic music)

>> Announcer: Live, from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE, covering AWS re:Invent 2017. Presented by AWS, Intel, and our ecosystem of partners. >> Welcome back everyone, live here in Las Vegas it's AWS re:Invent, it's theCUBE exclusive coverage of re:Invent 2017, our 5th year covering Amazon, watching the explosive growth. I'm John Furrier, the co-founder of SiliconANGLE Media, with Justin Warren my co-host here for this segment. Our next guest is Raejeanne Skillern, Vice President of the Data Center Group and also General Manager of the Cloud Service Provider, part of Intel. Welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you very much, it's nice to be here again. >> So, Intel inside the Cloud is big growth for you, what's the numbers look like, your earnings look pretty good, what's the business update? >> You know, it is growing, and it's growing in so many different angles, it's coming from multiple fronts. Part of it is just these killer workloads that are driving the need for change. Artificial Intelligence, immersive media, network transformation to handle all the data. It is causing this real spur in growth, from both the very largest of Cloud service providers across the ecosystem, and one of the things when I look at the growth, I try to say, now where is it really coming from? Yes, Amazon is just insanely growing fast and the big guys are doing well, their global expansion, But, also, the next wave of Cloud service providers, and regions, and different countries, are doing really well too, they're actually growing faster, so the whole ecosystem is growing with demand. >> Yeah, it's certainly not slowing down. I can't see any way in which that it would slow down at all, if anything it's just gonna get faster. >> I think so, and when I track trends like CapEx spending and analyst predictions on the future, consumer demand, everything indicates we're gonna see another strong 5-10 years. >> Justin: Yep. >> So how do the Cloud service providers shake out because if you look at this creativity of software renaissance, the interactivity, all the amazing use cases, from Thorn, finding missing exploited children, to, you know, high end HPC scientists, genome sequencing stuff. Massive use cases. >> Raejeanne: Right. >> So that's going to be a tsunami of software developers, Changing. How does that shape the Cloud providers, does it segment them into tiers, how are you guys looking at that business? >> Well I think it breeds a lot of new opportunity. So, yes, you see more and more new services and capabilities to enable developers to more easily develop code, to more quickly, to get better utilization out of their code. But I also think just the concept of a mocking performance and ease, means new insights, new services, new capabilities, things that we just couldn't, a developer, we could not have done before. So it's that, just like electricity, when you make it cheaper and easier to consume, we use more of it. I think Cloud computing is the same way. So we're seeing kind of a natural tam expansion, market expansion, around these things you just couldn't do without the Cloud. >> And new workloads, too. >> And new workloads. >> And all of those workloads, Intel is basically completely repositioning itself from just being a chip company, it's like, you're a data company now. So, what are some of the things that Intel's doing to help people understand how they can make use of these new software techniques, and these new tools, and the capabilities of the Intel chips they're dependent on. So what are some of the things that Intel's doing there? >> So obviously it starts at the bottom, with the best silicon, not just compute, but compute, network, and storage, and accelerators, for all different workloads. We move up to the platforms, we do a lot of hardware engineering with the ecosystem, with our top CSPs, actually many top CSPs, we do direct engineering work to get better systems of architecture. We have a host of libraries we're creating that ease of use, and mocking performance out of it. Reference architectures, co-partners, and solutions. So for us when we talk about being a data company, we can't do it from just even being a chip, we have to be a solutions partner, with Cloud service providers, enterprise, IOT edge solutions, we try to be there. >> You guys always enabled some very cool demos in the day, even back on the PC you always had interactivity, you pioneered multimedia. You always had that eye on the applications. Okay, on stage today all this greatness is out there: NFL demos, all this cool stuff. That's really powering your business, so talk about your relationship with Amazon web services, what's it like, how do you guys engage with them, what's the relationship, 'cause you guys are power engine for AWS. >> Yeah, well we try to be. We wanna be the best performance into their data center. We've had a many, many, many year deep relationship with Amazon. It started from simple co-development and engineering, and is extended much more pervasively across their environment and it poured sometimes into the services. We just, we want to one, make sure that what we're delivering today has been already optimized specifically for their unique environment, and that means we have to start a year or two before, if not earlier, to really understand where they're going, and get their feedback, so that when we either optimize a product or technology across compute network or storage, or create something potentially custom for them, right, it takes a number of years of work, so our partnership has a lot of in-depth engineering, it has a lot of future and near-term enabling, and then we hope to see an expansion. What we really want to do is use our technology to differentiate Amazon. We want their services better because of the technologies or capabilities we put in, so wherever they wanna align in terms of strategic investment and growth markets, we wanna make sure the silicon can enable it. >> Intel always marched to the cadence of Moore's law, and you guys have always been a rapid machine, execution. Amazon looks good, I mean, they're executing. >> Raejeanne: They're fast. >> I mean, what's it like? Share some story, I mean, they're years ahead, what's it like working with Amazon? >> Well I think, I mean, they are fast. It's amazing how quickly they can move and innovate, how rapidly those innovations roll out to the market. I will be honest, there are times where we miss windows because we are slow, and they just look at us like, "Well we told you "this four weeks ago, here it is, right?" (laughing) >> Can't design a chip in four weeks. We don't have kubernetes, no containers for chips. >> I mean they are just, they have it down. So what we're trying to do is part of this transition from being a client company, to a Cloud and data center company, and IOT company, means everything we have to do is faster. So we have to design our chips more quickly, we have to put in more modularity for faster derivatives, and we have to move at Cloud speed, not classic Intel speed. >> Right, yeah. So what are some of the lessons that other companies can take from Intel, I mean it's a hardware company, or it was originally a hardware company, and now you've transitioned to being a Cloud company, and you're being pushed by Amazon to move faster and faster. So what are some of the lessons that you can share with other companies who are trying to start moving at Cloud speed? >> You know, I think, I love Jeff Bezos' approach, customer-obsessed. If you aren't understanding how the end customers, starting with Amazon's customers, but also then my customer, Amazon, how they're using and consuming technology, we can't really create good technology. I would say a lot of companies create a great thing and then try to go sell it at markets, >> Yep. >> Versus starting with the market, and creating the specific thing. The other thing we've learned, I mean, Intel is a very data driven company, both in our decision making, as well as our company growth, this is, and we talk about it from a developer envirogroup, but it's the same iterate fast. Fail quickly and move on. You don't need perfect. This is one of our learnings, right? Don't wait six months for perfect, move fast, get 70-80% of the way there, I've heard governments say they get 40-50 way percent of there, make decisions, because they have to move that quickly. For military or other exercises. So what we're trying to do is match that type of speed as well. >> It's a world of compute now, I mean, I was at Alibaba Conference, they had their Cloud coachings hearing it here, the same message: more compute. They're not saying I need more little chips, they're saying I want more horsepower. >> Raejeanne: Right. >> And you guys just announced the C5 instance, recently, a couple weeks. >> And the budget. >> What is that gonna do? I mean, it's fairly new. >> Raejeanne: Yes. >> What does that mean? Is that gonna be an IOT edge opportunity? Is it all workloads? That's gonna be like, a pretty big deal. What's your take on it? >> It is, their C instant line has always been for high performances growing workloads. We're seeing like, for HPC workloads, anywhere from two to four-and-a-half X the performance moving from C4 to C5, right? This is an instance that can handle the most demanding workloads from high performance compute to artificial Intelligence to others. So, you know, we have our latest and greatest Intel ZN scalable process in there, a very high performant one, that we customized specifically for their environment, but then they do all this amazing software work and efficiency work around it, to really unlock. I was really glad to see when they talked about those C5 instances launching, 25% on workload's price performance up to 50% price performance improvements on some others. So, I mean, once again, when you can take more compute and make it more cost effective, it's just a lot more things people can do in the industry, so we're very excited about that instance. >> What's the biggest thing in the past five years that jumped out at you in the massive change in the industry? Application, startups, business growth? What amazes you? >> Yeah, there's so much, I would kind of combine it under what the industry calls Digital Transformation. You know, when I look at it, one of the points that always sticks in my mind, is CEOs, 70% of them have digital transformation at the heart because the data suggests that by the end of 2018, the top 40% of the top 20, 40% of the top 20 industries are gonna be disrupted. So that to me, that amount of disruption happening, and the company's trying to disrupt themselves whether it's healthcare, retail, manufacturing, oil and glass, the use and pervasiveness of where technology and Cloud can fit has really kind of astonished me and I love, once again, I love that they're making what they do today better. But the new things that they're doing, I mean, in healthcare, right? It's just amazing. >> I mean, we used to use the word back in the day when I broke into the biz in the '80s, Data Processing Department. I mean, the Cloud is one big data processor. >> It is. It is a compute power. We call it the brain, right? If Cloud is now ubiquitous, right? It is, from public Cloud to private to Edge, and everything in between, it's that brain, right? >> John: It's the brain. >> That's enabling the compute, so we have to-- >> You people have always been on the inside of everything, so congratulations on your success, on the Cloud growth. General manager of the Cloud service provider and Vice President of Data Center Group, Raejeanne Skillern, here inside theCUBE with Intel, I'm Jeff Furrier with Justin Warren, back with more live coverage, here in Las Vegas, for Amazon web services 2017 re:Invent. More after this short break. (techno music)

>> Narrator: Live from Washington DC, it's the CUBE. Covering AWS Public Sector Summit 2017. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services and its partner Ecosystem. >> Welcome back here on the CUBE, the flagship broadcast of Silicon Angle TV along with John Furrier, I'm John Wallace. We're here at AWS Public Sector Summit 2017, the sixth one in its history. It's grown leaps and bounds and still a great vibe from the show for us. It's been packed all day John. >> It's the new reinvent for the public sector, so size wise it's going to become a behemoth very shortly. Our first conference, multi-year run covering Amazon, thanks to Theresa Carlson for letting us come and really on the front lines here, it's awesome. It's computing right here, edge broadcasting, we're sending the data out there. >> We are, we're extracting the signal from the noise as John always likes to say. Government, educations all being talked about here this week. And with us to talk about that is Max Peterson, he's a general manager at the AWS and Max, thank you for joining us, we appreciate that. >> Thank you for the invitation. >> And I knew we were in trouble with our next guest, cause I said this is John, I'm John, he said, this is Max and I'm Max. I said no you're not, I know better than that. Andre Pienaar who's a founder and chairman of C5 Consulting, Andre, thank you for being here on the CUBE. >> It's great pleasure being here. >> Alright let's just start off first off with core responsibilities and a little bit about C5 too for our audience. First off, if you would Max, tell us a little bit about your portfolio-- >> Sure. >> At AWS and then Andre, we'll switch over to C5. >> I think I might have the best job in the world because I get to work with government customers, educational institutions, nonprofits who are all working to try and improve the lives of citizens, improve the lives of students, improve the lives of teachers and basically improve the lives of people overall. And I do that all around the world. >> That is a good job. Yeah, Andre. >> Max will have to arm wrestle for who has got the best job in the world, because in C5, we have the privilege of investing into fast growing companies that are built on Amazon Cloud and that specializes in cyber security, big data and cloud computing and helps to make the world a safer place. >> I'm willing to say >> Hold on I think we have the best job. >> we both have the best job. >> Now wait a minute, we get to talk to the two of you, are you kidding? >> Yeah, I've got the best, we talk to all the smartest people like you guys and it can't get better than that. >> You're just a sliver of our great day. >> That's awesome, we have established we all have great jobs. >> Andre, so you hit cyber, obviously there is not a hotter topic, certainly in this city that is talked about quite a bit as you're well aware so let's just talk about that space in general and the kinds of things that you look for and why you have this interest and this association with AWS. >> So the AWS cloud platform is a game changer for cyber security. When we started investing in cyber security, and people considered cloud, one of their main concerns was do I move my data into the cloud and will it be secure? Today it's the other way around because of the innovation that AWS has been driving in the cyber security space. People are saying, we feel we are much more secure having the benefit of all innovation on the cloud platform in terms of our cyber security. >> And the investment thesis that you guys go after, just for the record, you're more on the growth side, what stage of investments do you guys do? >> We're a later stage investor so the companies we invest in are typically post revenue but fast growing in visibility and on profitability. >> So hot areas, cyber security, surveillance, smart cities, autonomous vehicles, I mean there's a data problem going on so you see data and super computing coming back into vogue. Back when I was a youngling in college, they called it data processing. The departments and mainframes, data processing and now you have more compute power, edge compute, now you have tons of data, how is all that coming in for and inching in the business models of companies. This is a completely different shift with the cloud. But you still need high performance computing, you still need huge amounts of data science operations, how do companies and governments and public sectors pull up? >> I think just the sheer volume of data that's being generated also by the emerging internet of things necessitates new models for storing and processing and accessing data and also for securing it. When big enterprises and governments think about cyber security, they really think about how do we secure the most valuable data that's in our custody and our stewardship and how do we meet that obligation to the people who have provided that data to us. >> How would you summarize the intrinsic difference between old way, new way? Old way being non-cloud and new way being cloud as we look forward? >> I think that was a pretty good summary right there. New way is cloud, old way is the legacy that people have locked up in their data centers and it's not just the hardware that is the legacy problem, the data is the legacy problem. Because when you have all that information built in silos around government, it makes it impossible to actually implement a digital citizen experience. You as a citizen would like to be able to just ask your question of government and let them sort out what your postal code was, what your benefits information was, right? You can't do that when you've got the data, much less the systems, locked up in a whole bunch of individual departments. >> Well merging of data, sharing data as an ethos and the cyber security world, where there's an ethos of hey, you know, we're going to help each other out because the more data, the more they can get patterns into the analytics which is a sharing culture. That's not really the way it is. I got governance, I got policy issues. >> Well policing is a good example. In the Washington DC area, there are 19 law enforcement agencies with arresting powers and that data is being kept in completely separate silos. Whereas if we're able to integrate and share that data, you will be able to draw some very useful predictive policing conclusions from that which can prevent and detect crime. >> That's a confidence issue and that's where your security point weighs in. Let me get back to what you said about the old way, new way thing. Another bottleneck or barrier, or just hurdle if you will, in cloud growth, has been cultural. Mindset of management and also operational practices, you have a waterfall development cycles or project management versus agile, which is different. That's a different cultural thing so you got all the best intentions in the world, people could raise their hand put stuff in the cloud, but if you can't scale out, you're going to be on this cadence where projects aren't going to get that ROI picture generated so the agility, how are you guys seeing that developing? >> I would tell you the first thing that it takes is leaders and that's what this conference is about. It's about telling the stories of customers who have seen the potential and who are now leaders. It takes something, it takes a spark to start it and the most powerful spark that we've seen, are customer testimonials, who come forward and they explain, hey I was doing this the old way. A lot of times for a cost reason or a new mandate, they have to come up with a new way to invent and they made that selection of the cloud and that's what so often changed the opportunity that they can address. Here's just using that data as an example, transport for London in the UK has a massive amount of data that comes from all of the journey information. They started their journey to the cloud four years ago and it started with the simple premise of I needed to save costs. They saved money and they were able to take that money and reprogram it now to figuring out how do we unlock the data to generate more information for commuters. Finally, they were able to take that learning and start spinning it into how do I actually improve the journey by using machine learning, artificial intelligence and big data techniques? Classic progression along the cloud. Save some money, reinvest the savings and then start delivering new innovation on that point. >> I was going to ask you the use cases. You jumped right in. Andre, can you just chime in and share your opinion on this or anecdotal or story or data around use cases that you see out there that can point to saying, that's game changing that's transformative, that's disruptive. >> Well one of the customer stories that Max referred to that was a real game changer in cyber security was when the CIA said that they were going to adopt the AWS cloud platform. Because people said if US Intelligence community has the confidence to feel secure on AWS cloud, why can't we? AWS have evolved cyber security from being an offering which is on top of the cloud and the responsibility of the client to something which is inside the cloud which involves a whole range of services and I think that's been a complete game changer. >> The CIA deal, Dave Velanto is not here, my partner in crime as well, I call it the shot heard all around the cloud, that was a seminal moment for AWS in chronicling your guys journey over the years but I've been following you guys since the barely birth days and how you've grown up, that was a really critical moment for AWS in the public sector so I want to ask you guys both a question, right now, 2017 here at public sector conference, what's the perception of AWS outside of the ecosystem? Clearly cloud is the new normal, we heard previously, I agree with that. But what's the perception of the viability, the production level? What's the progress part in the minds of the folks? How far are we in that journey cause this is a breakout year, this year. That was the shot heard around the cloud, now there seems to be a breakout year, almost a hockey stick pick up. >> It's another example of how it takes leadership and it was the shot heard round the cloud, what we're seeing though is now many, many people are picking up that lead and using it to their advantage. The National Cyber Security Center in the UK told a story today that's pretty much a direct follow on. They're now describing to their agencies what they should do to be safe on the cloud. They're not giving them a list of rules that they need to try and go check off. It's very much about enabling and it's very much about providing the right guidance and policy. It's unlocking it instead of using security as a blocker in that example. Much more than just that one example, all over the world-- >> But people generally think okay this is now viable. So in terms of the mind of the people out in the trenches, not in the front lines like here, thoughts on your view on the perception of the progress bar on AWS public sector. >> John, one of the best measures of how the AWS cloud is perceived is what's happening in the startup scene. 90% of all startups today get born on the Amazon cloud in the US. 70% of all startups in France gets born in AWS cloud. This is the future voting for cloud and saying this is where we want to be, this is where we can scale this is where we can grow-- >> If you can believe APIs will be the normal operational interface subsystems and data, then you essentially have a holistic distributed cloud, aka computer. That's the vision. So what's the challenge? What do you guys see as the challenge, is it just education, growth? You only have 10,000 people here, it's not like it's 30 yet. >> Well you heard one of the, or you hit on one of the things that's key and that's policy. You really do have to break through the old government bureaucracy and the old government mentality and help set the new policies. Whether it's economic policies that help enable small businesses to launch and use the cloud. Whether it's procurement policies that allow people to actually buy tech and use tech fast, or whether it's the basic policy of the country. The UK now has a policy of being digital native, cloud native. >> The ecosystem's interesting, Andre, you mentioned startup, because I think for me, challenge opportunity is to have Amazon scale up, to handle the tsunami of Ecosystem partners that could be as you said, we just talked to Fugue here. Amazing startup funded by New Enterprise Associates, NEA, they're kicking ass, they're just awesome. You go back 10 years ago, they wouldn't even be considered. >> Absolutely. >> So you've got an opportunity to jam everyone in the marketplace and let it be a free for all, it's kind of like a fun time. >> It's a great time and in the venture capital world, being architect on the Amazon cloud has become a badge of quality. So increasingly venture capital firms are looking for startups that run on the AWS cloud and use them in an innovative way. >> Well on the efficiency on the product side, but also leverage on the capital side. >> Exactly. You need less capital. >> Been a provision of data center, what? >> You need less capital and secondly, also, you can fail much faster and then still have space and time to build it and restart. I think failing faster is something from an investment point of view that is really attractive. >> John: Final question. >> John: Failing faster? >> Failing faster. Because what you don't want are the long drawn out deaths of businesses. Because that's a sure way to destroy value of money. >> I think the other part though is fix faster. >> Fix faster. >> And that's exactly what the cloud does so instead of spending an immense amount of time and energy trying to figuring out precisely what I need to build, I can come up with the basic idea, I can work quick, I can fail fast, but I can fix it fast. >> Alright, well you mentioned the golden time, the golden era, and I think you both have captured it, so I think both your jobs would be up there at the top of the shelf. >> Thank you John. >> You mentioned 19 agencies by the way here in DC that can arrest, I have parking tickets from every one of them. >> Andre: I'm glad they haven't arrested you yet John. >> No, that's the price you pay for living in this city. >> Thanks John and John. >> Max, Andre thank you very much. >> John and John thank you. >> Cheers. >> Back with more here from AWS Public Sector Summit 2017, live, Washington DC, you're watching the CUBE.