(jazzy music) >> From our studios in the heart of Silicone Valley Palo Alto, California. This is a CUBE Conversation. >> Hello everyone, welcome to this special CUBE Conversation. I'm John Furrier with my cohost Abby Kearns, the Executive Director of The Cloud Foundry Foundation, my cohost. With Blair Hanley Frank, Principal Analyst at ISG Insights. Blair, great to see you, former journalist at Venturebeat. >> Great to see you again. >> Great to have you on theCUBE finally. Yes, likewise. It's good to be here. >> Thanks for coming on. So, I'd love to start to find out what you're working on. You've been covering the tech sector as a journalist now, as an analyst. You've always done good work, I always admired what you've done. I'm sure you're digging into some really good stuff. What are you researching? What are some of the things you're finding around cloud? What the, what's the data tell us? >> Yeah, awesome. So we have a forthcoming cloud study where we talked to 300 enterprise IT decision makers and we asked them what they're doing today what they're looking to do in the future and how they're doing it. And we're taking all of that information and we're putting that together with the information that we have from ISG's advisor and practitioner community. And building an understanding of where the market is and where it should be. And that's what we have going on today. One of the things that we think is really important, is when we look and the data and we look what's going on in the market, what we find really important is that enterprises today are starting to move to the cloud. They have some workloads in SaaS. They have some workloads in a public cloud, IaaS or PaaS. And then they have a lot of stuff that's still on premises. And that exists in a wide variety of workloads. Whether that's on bare metal, whether that's virtualized whether that's some sort of cloud native or containerized application that's still running on prem all the way up until the cloud and what we see is that those different modes of operation are actually going to continue to exist throughout the enterprise. Even as we see more workloads shift into the public cloud. Enterprises aren't realistically going to be able to retire all of their on premises investments for the foreseeable future. >> Nor should they. >> Right And so what they-- >> Amazon confirmed that with Outposts. You saw Azure Stack, I mean that's total. I mean, first the VMware deal, the RDS on premises, and then you've got the Outpost which still hasn't, we haven't heard anything about that. That's validation, Amazon essentially saying, "I'm going to put cloud on premise." >> Yeah. >> Cloud Operations. So certainly that's validated. The question I want to ask you and Abby, get your thoughts too if you want to chime in over the top. But I've always been critical of the cloud market share game, right? Like, I've always been vocal on theCUBE. Because it's always been infrastructure service, platform service and then SAS is the application. Now Amazon has some SAS but most of their SAS is their customers. Google's got G Suite, they've got their own SAS. Microsoft's got Office 365. So when you start bundling SAS revenues into cloud market share and revenue projections. You start to see, you know, sandbagging of the numbers. I mean you can talk to sales forces today in a work day, they have clouds. So what's a cloud? What is cloud technologies? And, you know, Azure as that develops all the sudden has this massive market share. And it didn't really exist a few years ago. Where'd that come from? Is that just a shift of some sandbagging on the revenue side? Or is that actually real cloud? Or is it, so this is the game that the customer has to squint through. Now we in the industry know that okay, a little bit of Office 365. Okay, is that really cloud? >> Yeah, I mean, when you think about financials with cloud vendors. Everybody is playing a slightly different shell game. And generally speaking, you're not really going to get real numbers from anybody. Except possibly Amazon. And the reason why Amazon is able to do that is because the financial results for AWS look great. But everybody else is going to be masking. >> But they don't have a lot of SaaS though. The think about there, their SaaS number is their customer base. So I mean-- >> Yeah, but I would argue cloud is nothing but infrastructure with a SaaS on top of it. I mean, we talk about cloud as if there's some magic kind of thing happening over here. But it's basically a different kind of data center with a different kind of SaaS on top of it. And I think if I'm, if it's me reporting my numbers out. Well, I'm going to make them look as good as I possibly can. >> CUBE Cloud is coming out with great numbers. (laughing) >> I mean, look. You're going to make it look as great as you can. I mean, infrastructure is infrastructure is infrastructure. But now like, when you talk about SAS on top of that. Well, what's cloud? What's not? And it's super, it's a very fungible definition. >> Alright, I'm not disagreeing on that point. I see how that makes sense. The question for people who are making quote, "decisions" on the buyers side. They tend to think of things like "cloud supplier"? Is that really a word? Like what does that mean? So if you're going to say cloud's part of a workload is that actually even relevant. A "cloud supplier", I mean, I guess they're supplying cloud to you. But, so when you start to get into the vendors versus the buyers and the consuming of the technology. We get in that old school game of trying to put things into like market share, revenue. I mean, I see Amazon just kicking ass ten ways from Sunday. And I think Azure's certainly doing some good things there. Google, we're going to see what's going on with Google. They've got great direction. But, it's like apples, oranges and pears. Right, like are they all the same or different? And then throw Salesforce in there. This is where it muddies the water. >> And Alibaba. >> Alibaba! So, I mean, so it's hard to like figure this out. So I'd love to get your thoughts on how you guys see that in the studies. Are customers confused? Do they have some visibility into what they want to do? What's out there in the data on this point. >> So, what I will say directionally speaking, SaaS is where the market is going. So when we asked our survey respondents for where are there applications today and where did they want to go? 90% of those people we surveyed, 90% of the 300 people we surveyed around the world said in 2019 we are primarily in a hybrid mode. Where our applications are on premises and in a public cloud. 5% of them said, the majority of our applications are in SaaS. Now when you look at 2021, 37% say that they expect to be in a hybrid mode. 61% expect that they are going to be majority SaaS for their workloads, in two years. >> So they're in build up mode, they're in shifting mode. >> They're shifting, and they're not just, they're planning to shift to SaaS. They're planning to, they want to get out of the business of running applications. And put some of that burden onto providers to say, "Okay, it's your job to run the application. We'll provide the data. We'll build our business processes but we don't want our job to be running those apps." And what we see is that when you look at total cost of ownership, our respondents found SaaS to be far more predictable in terms of TCO than IaaS and PaaS. And again, for those people who are are really paying attention. If you think about it, that doesn't. Like, that's not a surprise. But on the other hand, that's like, I think that's part of where the driver comes from. Is that when you're consuming a SaaS product, it's very understandable. It's very consumable. When you think about running application in an Iaas, PaaS environment. Maybe not so much. It's going to be, you're more in charge of that application. So-- >> And SaaS has got immediate gratification. >> Exactly. >> I mean, you see the benefits. >> Easy to consume. >> Is there revenue there, is it doing its objective? Why is the IAZ fuzzy? Just because it's a classic back office kind of mindset? Or is it more of maturity? It seems mature to me, I mean, I don't I think IAZ has been more mature than ever before right now. Now we kind of-- >> I think its been around awhile, I mean I'd love to hear your answer. I think it's, there's just, I feel it's a relic of the past. Whereas, it's not something we spend much time thinking about. Like, there's that old joke. You know, "Great job keeping the servers up" said no CEO ever. Right? (laughing) >> That's a good point. But now apart from the servers you've got SageMaker, you've seen what Amazon's moving with the Stack with SageMaker. Machine learning, all of this kind of SASification kind of platform creeping up to the top of the stack. It seems to be what everyone talks about. I'm sure Google next will hear all about AI and how Iot Edge or some focus around that piece. So, again I agree. It's the commoditization is just another distraction layer on top of it. >> Yeah. >> Sure. >> We've seen that movie before. >> We're moving up the stack, we're just moving up the stack at a faster pace than we have in the last two decades. >> So bottom line, Blair. What's the survey, what's the net net telling us? What's coming out of it? >> So the net net here is really that enterprises need to have a strategy and an operating model in place for the long haul. When they think about their cloud strategy overall, this is something where they're not going to be able to snap their fingers and get to cloud-native nirvana overnight. Because that requires technical change, it requires culture change, it requires process change. There's a lot of very heavy lifting that takes place and not all of the applications that exist in an enterprise today really need that heavy lift. And so when you think about what the future holds for enterprises. They really need to build a model for how they are going to make that transition as smooth as possible. Take advantage of the new capabilities that are entering the market as quickly as possible to help advance their business. While at the same time having the opportunity to work across all of those different modes of operation and do so with high reliability, high customer satisfaction, high performance. All of the things that you need to succeed as a business in 2019. >> So I totally agree. This is a heavy lift to go kill the old and bring in the new. And one of the things that I've seen as a trend, and I'd love to get your guys' thoughts on this, as a reaction. Because I've seen the Kubernetes trend really let a lot of air out of that tension. Because it allows people to get in with containers to get in around some workloads and bring kind of baby steps into transitioning stuff. And I've seen people saying, "You know what. I like the idea of going cloud but I got this app that I really don't want to shut it down and have to rebuild it. But I could put some containers around things, run it on some Vms, use Kubernetes to orchestrate it." So I think this has been, I'm not sure if it's actually been deployed in massive production. But I've heard people say that. Is that hype or is that reality? Is it becoming a crutch, is it a short term transitional? >> I got to drag out my soap box for this 'cause I have a soap box for this. >> Okay, let's go. >> I'm not a big believer in lift and shift. I think there are times where it may be opportunistic. When you're like end of life-ing hardware or something like that. But I'm not a big believer that a cloud is a goal. Because cloud should not be your goal. If I'm a business, my goal should not be cloud. My goal should be, how do I write more applications more quickly? And maybe, how do I use infrastructure in better and more efficient ways? But cloud is not my goal. If that's my goal, then I'm going to be really sad at the end of the day. Because that hasn't made my business better. So I think, I feel like we've all over rotated-- >> You're saying it's not the outcome. The outcome is the app that benefits from doing that. >> The outcome, if you're a bank and you tell me your goal is to be on the cloud. Well, then I'm like, you've got the wrong goal. Your goal should be, how am I writing more applications and getting them out into the hands of my customer and changing my business faster? If the cloud gets me to that, great! But that may not be the answer for all of your workloads and you need to really think about that before you say "my goal is cloud". My goal is to write more applications faster. Period. And if that's on the cloud or if that's on prim or if that's on bare metal, what have you. But I need to really think about what my outcome is. And I feel like we've really focused on the cloud as the solution and that's not the solution. And if you're check boxing, you know, I'm done for the year because I moved a bunch of stuff to the cloud. Well you're, the works not done. The work is the culture part and the team part and really figuring out the applications I need to create And how do I iterate on those applications? The cloud is just, it's a bi product of that. >> It should be enabling the outcome they want. >> Right. >> That's a great soap box. Your thoughts on the overall lift and shift soap box rant by my cohost Abby here? >> Yeah, I think that the, the big opportunity is to do what's right for the business. That's ultimately what should be driving any sort of transformation. I had a conversation with a start up once. They were very focused on taking their monolithic application and going to microservices. And they were like, "we're going to go to microservices. That's what we want to do because that's the future. That's what a modern application looks like." And they started decomposing their application what I would call radically decomposing their application. Getting down to the atomic, you know, moment of how small can we make every single piece of this application. What they figured out was that it was a massive headache. And so they actually then, took it and sort of re-composed the application into not microservices but what they called mega-services. Where they-- >> And then they ended up writing a book and being famous and doing a speaking tour. But they didn't achieve the objective. >> And so, and that's exactly it. That they all of the sudden created this host of technical problems by pursuing an ideal that wasn't-- >> And this is the danger, the dogma. Danger of having the dogma of a certain trend. I remember during the big data days when we were covering the Duke movement around 2010, 2011, 2012. I would hear this all the time in side cloud era. "Man, I just set up an 18 note cluster. I'm so pumped!" Well, what are you doing with it? "Well, I just collect data." I'm like well, I get it, I get. And then what happened was, that was their end game. We see a lot of that with clouds, your point where, it's not about, it's what you're using it for. And then they had to make up the term data lake after that. So again, they just kept adding on more but they actually missed the entire boat because it was about making data addressable for apps. >> It used to make things useful. >> So this is the danger of the tech world. >> And making it useful. Yeah, I feel like we follow the shiny penny. As opposed to saying, "Actually is that actually even relevant for me?" You know, when Docker came out in 2014 and every conversation started with, that was the answer for everything. Whatever you wanted. Do you want toast for lunch? Docker? And I feel like that was the answer for everything. And I feel like, why? Like, one, why do you care about a container? And two, like why? >> Containers were pretty cool though. >> Sure, they're cool. But containers have been around since 1969. >> Summer of love. The containers, ya know? >> It was, but I feel like, ya know everyone's like "that's my answer" and you're like "Well, what's the question you're asking?" And I feel like we continue, we went from Docker to the next thing and the next thing and the next thing. And I feel like we're not pausing to say "actually what are we hoping to gain?" You're point. >> So Kubernetes, what do you think is Kubernetes a shiny penny or shiny new toy? Or does that have any relevance in your mind in your soap box? Where does Kubernetes fit into your, your view. >> I mean I think Kubernetes is an amazing technology that has done a lot for the way think about scheduling and container orchestration. But it is also become victim of the shiny penny and that everyone is like "Kubernetes!" And you know, two years ago everyone is like "Kubernetes!" It's like how many people were using it two years ago? Not that many. And so I think about it in this like, and I often ask, "Why do you care so much about a container orchestrator?" >> FTO sold almost 650 million or whatever the number. >> 515, I know the Vmware. >> Is it 515 was the number? >> 515. >> That's half a billion dollars. That's Kubernetes' ca ching. >> I lived my two years, my last two years wrong. That's what I did. (laughing) But that's a different story about all of my mistakes. >> You could have been the Kubernetes foundation. >> But I think-- >> CNCF is doing pretty well, I mean, that community is rallying. It feels like an Amazon alternative. They feel cloud, it's very cloud native. So I think Kubernetes has been a good rallying cry, for sure. >> It is but I think you're also, you know, what you see even in CNCF which has so many amazing technologies. I do not want to take away from that but you also see the shiny penny effect happening within that community. You know, when I went to CUBECON in December you know, what was the hot topic? It wasn't Kubernetes it was Istio. You heard Istio everywhere. And I've never seen this many people so excited about service mesh in my life. I'm like "Great! This is awesome!" >> We love it on theCUBE, it's great content. Service mesh is great. Who wouldn't want policy staple applications? Come on! >> Well, ultimately the like-- >> Hold on. (inhaling) >> Exactly >> Have some of that staple, I'm saying. Fantasyland. >> I'm excited about it. >> No, stakes hard. >> Well, and this is what I end up telling clients is you want to adopt the parts of the stack that are necessary for you to solve the problems that you have. Right? If you are in the position where you need a service mesh, you know because you are having problems that only a service mesh can solve. And if you aren't in that position then you get to be like the 60% of respondents in our survey who said that they are currently experimenting with a service mesh. Or, the 33% who say that they plan to use it in the future. >> 60% are experimenting with it? >> Yeah, well, probably-- >> That numbers way high. >> Well, it's probably somebody has it running on some VM somewhere. >> It seems really high. >> Well if you look at the success at CUBECON one of the things that, Envoy is a great example, and you talk about some of the challenges-- >> Envoys great. >> The challenges that enterprises have. If you look at the success of all the open source projects, the ones that have been super successful. It's the folks that had to build it for themselves. Envoy had a lift. And I think this is a challenge that I see. I haven't really figured it out in the enterprise yet, how that's going to play out. It generally seems to be that the enterprises don't necessarily want to be like them. But they want the same kind of control. "I want to roll out my own cloud." But they don't want to have an open stack problem. Meaning, they don't want to have something that's not supported. So you have this kind of new changeover vibe going. I really haven't put my finger on it but it's, it has that same vibe. >> Well, enterprises are more in control. And what we've seen in our research is that enterprises actually feel comfortable now. They no longer feel like they're in the fog of war like "I don't know what's goin on!" They're more like "Oh, we actually understand and we're on it." And they're being more thoughtful about the technologies that they use. And they are experimenting more. And they're feeling really confident. But you know, my caution is always, use the technology when it makes sense, as it makes sense. But at the end of the day as a business owner, your fundamental question is, does this serve my outcomes? Does this serve my business outcomes? And if the answer is, I don't know. Then really think about what you're investing in in terms of technology. I mean, I love all of these technologies. But I'm never going to recommend all of them if that's not actually going to be in your best interest. >> That's great stuff. Well, thanks for coming on Blair. Appreciate it. You going to be at Google next? Cloud Foundry in Philly? In April, first week of April? >> Unfortunately, I won't make it to the Cloud Foundry Summit. >> Google Next, next month? >> Sure will. >> Alright, We'll see you there. >> Abby, thanks for co hosting this segment with me. >> Any time, John. >> Sharing the data here with my cohost Abby and John here. Co hosting the first ever CUBE, What we'd call it? Cloud? >> Cloud CUBE. >> Cloud CUBE. >> Rebrand. >> TheCUBE, thanks for watching. (jazzy music)

(funky music) >> From our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley, Palo Alto, California. This is a CUBEConversation. >> Everyone, welcome to this CUBEConversation here in Palo Alto, California. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. Here in theCUBE Studios here with Abby Kearns, Executive Director, Cloud Foundry Foundation, CUBE alumni. Great to see you again. I think this is your eighth time on theCUBE chatting. Always great to get the update. Thanks for spending the time. >> My pleasure, and it's a joy to drive down to your actual studios. >> (laughs) This is where all happens Wednesdays and Thursdays when we're not on the road doing CUBE events. I think we'll have over 120 events this year. We'll certainly see you at a bulk of them. Cloud Foundry, give us the update. Yeah, we took 'em joking before we came on camera. Boy this cloud thing is kind of working out. I mean, I think IBM CEO calls it chapter two. I'm like, we're still in chapter one, two, three? Give us the update Cloud Foundry, obviously open-source. Things are rocking. Give us the update. >> I do feel like we're moving into chapter two. Chapter one was a really long chapter. (laughs) It spanned about 10 years. But I do think we're starting to see actual growth and actual usage. And I think a lot of people are like, no, there's actually been usage for a while. Me, no no no not on a real scale. And we haven't seen any of the workloads for organizations running at massive scale. At the scale that we know that they can run at. But we're starting to see interesting scale. Like 40, 50 thousand applications, you know. Billions of transactions now passing through. A lot of cloud native technology. So we're starting to see real interesting volume. And so that's going to actually dictate how the next five years unfold because scale is going to dictate how the technologies unfold, how they're used. And they're going to feed into this virtuous cycle of how the technologies unfold, and how they're going to be used, which feedback into how enterprises are using them, and you know, and the cycle continues. >> Give us the update on the foundation. What's going on with the foundation, status, momentum, clouds out there. Obviously open-source continues to drive however we saw a lot of acquisitions and fundings around people who are using open-source to build a business around that. >> I love that. >> Your favorite conversation. But, I mean you know the technical challenges with open-source allow for technical challenges but also the people side is they're learning. What's the update with the foundation? >> Well open-source is really tricky, and I think there is a lot of people that are really enthusiastic as it is a because model. I mean last year 2018 was a pretty substantial year for open-source. The year ended with Red Hat's acquisition by IBM. One of their biggest acquisitions, $34 billion. But we saw in December alone, we also saw Heptio get picked up by VMware which is a services company which is really based on Kubernetes on an open-source technology. But we also saw HashiCorp get another round of funding. And then earlier in the year, Pivotal IPO'd. And so if you look at 2018 at a bigger level, you saw a lot of momentum around open-source and how it's actually being commercialized. Now you and I were talking a little bit prior and I'm a big believer that open-source has the potential and is going to change fundamentally how technology is used and consumed. But at the end of the day for the commercial aspects of it you still have to have a business around that. And I think there's always going to be that fine line. And that line is actually always be going to be moving because how you provide value in, around, and on top of open-source, has to evolve with both the market and your customer needs. >> Yeah and where you are on that wave, whatever wave that is, is it an early wave or is it more mature so the metrization certainly matters? >> Sure. >> You could be early on setting the table or if it's growing when there's some complexity. So it kind of depends, it's always that depends is it the cloud air or is it the Red Hat? There's different approaches and people kind of get confused on that and your answer to that is just pick one that works for, that's a good business model. Don't get hung up on kind of the playbook if you will, is that kind of what you're saying? >> Well I think we're seeing this play out this week with AWS's Elastic announcement, right? And there's been a lot of conversation around how do we think about open-source. Who has access to it? Who has the right to commercialize it? What does commercialization look like? And I think, I've always cautioned people that are proceeding down the path to open-source is really be thoughtful about why you're doing open-source. Like what is your, what are you hoping to achieve? There's a lot of potential that comes with open sourcing your technology. You gain ecosystem, community, momentum. There's a lot of positives that come with that but there's also a lot of work that comes with that too. Managing your community. Managing a much more varied share of stakeholders and people that are going to have thoughts and opinions around how that technology unfolds. And then of course it's because it's open-sources there's more opportunity for people to use that and build their own ideas and their own solutions on top of that. And potentially their own commercial products. And so really figuring out that fine line and what works best for your business. What works best for the technology. And then what your hopes are at the end of the day with that. >> And what are some of the momentums or points for the Foundation, with Cloud Foundry, obviously seeing Pivotal went public, you mentioned that VMWare, I talk to Michael Dell all the time, the numbers are great coming from that operation. Pat Kelson near the Amazon deal think that clear and where VMWare was. But still you have a lot more cloud, multi-cloud conversations happening than ever before. >> Well, for sure I mean at Cloud Foundry, we've actually been talking about multicloud since 2016. We saw that trend coming based on user behavior. And now you've seen everyone is multicloud, even the public clouds are multicloud. >> I think you had the first study out on that, too on multicloud. We did. We were we were firm believers in multicloud. Last year we've actually moved more broadly to multi-platform. Because at the end of the day there isn't one technology that solves all of these problems. Multicloud is you know is pervasive and at the end of the day multicloud means a lot of different things to a lot of people. But for many enterprises what it gives is optionality. You don't want to be locked into a single provider. You don't want to be locked into a single cloud or single solution because you know if I'm an enterprise, I don't know where I'm going to be in five years. Do I want to make a five year or a 10 year or a 20 year commitment to a single infrastructure provider when I don't know what my needs are going to be. So having that optionality and also being able to use the best of what clouds can provide, the best services, the best outcomes. And so for me, I want to have that optionality. So I'm going to look at technologies that give me that portability and then I'm going to use that to allow me to choose the best cloud that I need for right now for my business and maybe again a different one in the future. >> I want to get your thoughts on this. I just doubled down on this conversation because I think there's two things going on that I'm saying we'll get your reaction to. One is I've heard things like pick the right cloud for the right workload and I heard analogies. Hey, if you got an airplane you need to have two engines. You have one engine if it works for that plane, but your whole fleet of planes could be other clouds. So, pick the right cloud for the right workload. Meaning workload is defined spec. >> Yeah. >> I've also heard that the people side of the equation, where people are behaving like they are comfortable with API's tooling is potentially a lock-in, kind of by default. Not a technical lock-in, but people are comfortable with the API's and the tooling. >> Yeah. >> And the workloads need a certain cloud. Then maybe that cloud would be it. That's not saying pick that cloud for the entire company. Right, so certainly that the trend seems to be coming from a lot of people in the news saying hey, this whole sole-cloud, multi-cloud thing argument really isn't about one cloud vs. multiple clouds. It's workload cloud for the use case in the tooling, if it fits and the people are there to do it. Then you can still have other clouds and that's in the multi-cloud architecture. So is that real? What's your thoughts on that? >> Let's dissect that 'cause I think that's actually solving for two different outcomes. Like one multi-cloud for optionality's purpose and workload specific. I think it's a great one. There's a lot of services that are native to certain clouds that maybe you really would like to get greater access to. And so I think you're going to choose the best. You know that's going to drive your workload. Now also factoring in that you know you're going to have a much more mediated access to cloud based on what people are comfortable with. I do think it's at some point as an organization you want to have a better control over that. You know historically over the last decade what we've seen. Shadow IT really dictates your Cloud spend right. You know everyone's got a credit card. I got I've got access to AWS. >> And they got most of that business. Amazon did. >> Yes and that served them quite well. If I am an organization that's trying to digitally transform, I'm also trying to get a better handle on what we're spending, how we're spending it and frankly, now if I have compliance requirements, where's my data? These are going to be important questions for you when you're starting to run production workloads at scale on multiple clouds and so, I predict we're going to see a lot more tension there in internal organizations. Like, hey I'd love for you to use cloud, you know? Where this no longer needs to be a shadow thing, but let's figure out a way to do it that's strategically and intentional versus just random pockets. Choosing to do cloud because of the workflow that they like. >> Well you bring up a good point. The cost thing was never a problem, but then you have sprawl and you realize there's a cost to Optimizer component which means you might be overpaying because as you think about the system aspects, you got networking and you got Cloud management factors. So you start as you get into that Shadow IT expansion. You got to realize, wait a minute, I'm still spending a lot of cash here. >> This adds up really really quickly. I mean, I think the information piece a couple weeks ago where they talked about the Pinterest bill, this stuff, it starts adding up. And for organizations, this is like not just thousands of dollars. It's now hundreds of thousands of dollars. If not you know, tens of millions of dollars. And so, if I'm trying to figure out ways to optimize my business and my scale, I'm going to look at that because that is not an insignificant amount of money. And so if I'm in it, that's money that could be better invested in more developers, better outcomes, a better alignment with my business, then that's where I want to spend my time and money, and so, I'm going to spend more time being really thoughtful about what clouds we're using, what infrastructure we're using, and the tools we're using to allow us to have that optionality. >> So you would agree with the statement if I said, generally, multi-cloud is here, it already exists. >> Yes. >> And that multi-cloud architecture thinking is really the conversation that needs to be had. Not so much cloud selection, per say. It's not a mutually exclusive situation. Meaning, I'm not all in on Amazon. I'm going to have clouds plural? >> Well, yeah you are. Like we have already seen as of early last year over half of our users. Which right now over half the Fortune 500 are multi-cloud already, and that number has gone up since last year I'm for sure. Some workloads were on-prem and some are in a public cloud. Be it GCP, AWS, Azure, or AliCloud. And so that is a statement of fact. And I have every executive that I've talked to with every enterprise has been like, yes, we're doing multi-cloud. >> Yeah, they're going to have some kind of on-prem anyway, So we know that's there. That's not going to go away. >> No, PRIM is not going to go away. >> Then an IOT edge, and an Enterprise Edge, SDWAN comes back into vogue as people start using SAS across network connections. >> Yeah. >> I mean, SDWAN is essentially the internet basically. >> I feel like the older I get the more I'm like, wow, didn't I have this conversation like, 20 years ago? (laughs) >> I was talking about something earlier when I came in. The old becomes the new again. It's what's happening, right? Distributor computing now goes to cloud, you got the Enterprise. What are the big players doing? Google Next is coming up next month, big event. >> It is the week after Cloud Foundry Summit. >> They got Amit Zavery, big news over there they poached from Oracle. So Thomas Kurian brought in his Oracle, who is Cube alumni as well. Really smart guy. Diane is not there. What do you expect from Google Next for the week? What are we going to see there? What's the sentiment? What's the vibe? What do you see happening? >> Well, I think it's going to be all about the Enterprise right. That's why Thomas was brought in. And then I think they really give Google that Enterprise focus and say, how do we end up? As it's not just about I'm going to sell to enterprises. That's not, you know, when you're selling to an enterprise there is a whole different approach and you have to write how to the teams, the sales teams. You have to write how to the ecosystem, the services, the enablement capabilities, the support, the training, the product strategy? All of that takes a very different slant when you're thinking about an enterprise. And so I'm sure, that's going to be front-and-center for everything that they talk about. >> And certainly he's very public about, you know, the position Oracle Cloud, he knows the Enterprise Oracle was the master of enterprise gamesmanship for sure. >> Yes, for sure. You don't get a whole lot more enterprising than Oracle. >> What's going on in the CNCF any news there? What's happening on the landscape? What's the Abby take on the landscape of cloud? >> Well, speaking as someone that does not run CNCF. >> Feel free to elaborate. >> Cloud Native Computing Foundation, for those of you that aren't aren't, you know, aren't familiar is a sister open-source organization that is a clearing house or collective of cloud made of technologies. The anchor project is the very well-known Kubernetes, but it also spans a variety of technologies from everything from LINKerD to SEDA to Envoy, so it's just a variety of cloud-native technologies. And you know they're continuing to grow because obviously cloud-native is becoming you know it's coming into its own time right now. Because we're starting to really think about how to do better with workloads. Particularly workloads that I can run across a cloud. I mean and that seems pretty pedantic but we've been talking about Cloud since 2007. And we were talking about what cloud brings. What did cloud bring, it brings resiliency. You can auto-scale. You can burst into the cloud, remember bursting? Now all the things we talked about in 2007 to 2008 but weren't really reality because the applications that were written weren't necessarily written to do that. >> And that's exactly the point. >> So now we're actually seeing a lot more of these applications written we call them microservices, 12 Factor apps, serverless apps. What have you but it's applications written to run and scale across the cloud. And that is a really defining point because now these technologies are actually relevant because we're starting to see more of these created and run and now run at scale. >> Yeah, I think that's the point. I think you nailed it. The applications are driving everything And I think that's the chapter two narrative. In my opinion, chapter one was, let's get infrastructures code going. And chapter two is apps dictating policy and then you're going to see microservices start to emerge. Kind of new different vibe in terms of like what it means for scale as less of about, hey, I'm doing cloud, I got some stuff in the public cloud. Here the conversation is around apps, the workloads and that's where the business value is. It's not like people who is trying to do transformation. They're not saying hey I stood up a Kubernetes Cluster. They're saying I got to deploy my banking app or I got to do, I got to drive this workload. >> And I have to iterate now. I can't do a banking app and then update it in a year. That's not acceptable anymore. You are constantly having to update. You're constantly having to iterate, and that is not something you can do with a large application. I mean the whole reason we talk a lot about monolithic vs 12 factor or cloud in a box is because it isn't that my monolithics are inherently bad, it's just they're big and they're complex. Which means in order to make any updates it takes time. That's where the year comes in, the 18-months come in. And I think that is no longer acceptable you know. I remember the time and I'm going to date myself here, but I remember the time when you know banks would or any e-commerce site would be down. They'd have what they call the orange page. But the orange page would come up, site down tonight 'cause we're doing maintenance for the weekend, right? >> Under construction. >> Under construction. Okay, well I'll just come back on Monday. That's fine. And now, you're like, if it's down for 5 minutes you're like what is actually happening right now. Why is this not here. >> Yeah like when Facebook went down the other day. I was like, what the hell? Facebook sucks. >> You know, the internet blows up if Instagram is down. Oh my God, my life is over and I think our our expectation now is not only constant availability. So you know always available. But also our expectation is real-time access to data transparency and a visibility into what's actually happening at all times. That I've said something that a lot of organizations are really having to figure out. How to develop the applications to expose that. And that takes time and that takes change. And there's a ton of culture change. it has to happen and that is the more important thing if I'm a business I care more about how do I make that a reality and I should care a lot less about the technologies that you use. >> It's interesting you mention about the monolith versus the decomposed application of being agile. Because if you don't have the culture and the people to do it it's still a monolithic effort in the sense of the holistic thinking and the architectural, it's a systems architecture. You have to look at it like a system and that's not easy either. Once get that done the benefits are multifold in terms of like what you can do. But its it's that systems thinking setup is becoming more of an architectural concept that's super important. >> For sure if I have a microservice app, but it takes a 150 people to get that through change management and get it into production well that will still take me a year. Does it matter if there's maybe 12 lines of code in that application? It doesn't matter and so, you know I spend a lot of time. Even though I run Cloud Foundry, I spend a lot of time talking about culture change. All the writing I do is really around cultural change and what does that look like. Because at the end of the day if you're not willing to make those changes, you're not willing to structure your teams and allow for that collaboration and if you're doing iterative work, feedback loops from your customers. If you're not willing to put those pieces into place there is no technology that's going to make you better. >> I totally agree, so let me ask you a question on that point, great point, by the way. Most followed your you're writing your blog posts in the links, but I think that's the question. When do you know when it's not working? So I've seen companies that are rearranging the deckchairs, if you will, to use an analogy with all the culture rah, rah! And then nothing ever happens right? So they've gone into that paralysis mode. When do you look at a culture? When does the executive, what should they be thinking about because people kind of aspire to do this execution that you said is critical? When do you know it's not working or what should they be doing? What's the best practice? How does someone say hey you know what I really want is to be more holistic in my architecture. I don't want to spend two years on that the architecture and then find out it's now just starting. I want to get an architecture in place. I want to hit the ground running. >> I mean it's twofold, one, start small. I mean you're not going to change you know if you're an 85 year old company with 200,000 people you're not going to change that overnight and you should expect that's going to be an 8 to 10 year process now what that's also going to mean is you're going to have to have a really clear vision and you're going to have to be really committed like this is going to be a hard road but conversely when someone says what does success look like, when you're looking at a variety of companies how do you know which ones which ones you think are going to be the most successful at the end of the day because no one's ever actually done any of this before there's no one that's ever gone through this digital transformation and it should have come out on the other side no one. There isn't and so I think what does success look and I said well for me, what I look for are companies that are investing and re-skilling their workforce. That's what I'm looking for. I get real excited when companies talk about their internal boot camps or their programs to rescale or upscale their teams because it's not like you're going to lay off 20,000 people and hire 20,000 cloud native developers, they don't exist and they're certainly not going to exists for thousands of companies to go and do that so you know how are you investing in re-skilling because-- >> It's easy to grow your own internally from pre-existing positions. >> Well sure, they know your business. >> Rather than go to a job board that has no one available. >> And you know at the end of the day that needs to be your new business model what is digital transformation actually it's just a different way of working and there isn't, there is no destination to the digital trend. This isn't a journey that has an end and so you need to really think about how are you going to invest differently in your people so that they can continuously learn continuously learning needs to be part of your model and your mantra and that needs to be in everything you do from hiring to HR to MBO's to you know how do you how do you structure your teams like how do you make sure that people can constantly learn and evolve because if that's not happening it doesn't you know everything else is going to fall by the wayside >> Is the technology gap easy to fill? Lot of tech out there. Talent gap hard to fill. >> For sure. >> That's the real challenge. >> If you have all the best tech in the world but you don't have the right people or the right structure are you going to be successful, probably not. >> Yeah, that's a challenge. Alright, so final question for you where are you going to be, what's your schedule look like, where can people find you, what events going to be at? You guys have an event coming up? >> April 2nd through 4th in Philly. We're going to have a summit you want to see some people that are actually running cloud at scale that's the place to go >> April 5th? >> 2nd through 4th. First week of April Philly, fingers crossed good weather lots of cloud talk and it's a great way. >> City of Brotherly Love >> Yes, we're bringing it. >> Philadelphia. The Patriots couldn't make it to the playoffs last year but love the Philly fans down there Paul Martino and friends down there. Abby thanks for coming on. Appreciate it-good to see you. Thanks for the update. We'll see you around the events, I won't be able to make your event I'll be taking the week off skiing. >> Well one of us has to. >> First vacation of the year, two years. Thanks for coming in. >> You should do that. >> Abby Kearns here inside theCUBE for CUBEConversation I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching (funky music)

>> Male Narrator: Live from Copenhagen, Denmark. It's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018, brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Hello everyone, welcome back, this is theCUBE's exclusive coverage of KubeCon 2018. Part of the CNCF Cloud Native Computing Foundation, part of the Linux Foundation, this is theCUBE. I'm John Furrier with co-host, with Lauren Cooney, founder of Spark Labs, helping me out as analyst this week, great to have our next guest, shared acquaintance, Abby Kearns, Executive Director of Cloud Foundry Foundation, Cube alumni, welcome back! >> Thanks for having me back again. >> Got your voice, you're losing your voice from all the talking you're doing here on Cloud Foundry. >> Cloud cloud cloud all the time. >> So we were talking yesterday, I want to get you on because you guys have done some research. >> Yeah. >> On cloud, and we were chatting about, I should give you a plug on the opening segment yesterday about some of the things you're finding about Kubernetes. Certainly in our bubble, it's so passe now, we're moving on to STO and CUBE Flow, but you have research that, you know, is mainstream tech, outside of the bubble we live in, is actually now evolving into the first inning of Kubernetes, if you will. What does the research say, what's that all about? >> Well, the research says, trying not to apologize already, my voice is all over the place, so we've been tracking containers for now almost three years and I remember three years ago, everyone's like, "Okay, well we've talked about Docker for years now, "it's so passe," but when you got beyond the bubbles where tech is, people were just like starting to think about it. And so containers are just now getting to where people are either using them or using them as proof of concept. But Kubernetes has become a really big part of the conversation the last year, and it's continuing to take it by storm, and so we're starting to see organizations that are interested in it, but in terms of adoption and awareness beyond just the core central, there's still a massive education gap there. And a really big opportunity to educate people, not only on these tools, but what they really want to know is how do these tools help them get through their day and accomplish their work? >> So essentially, there's a lag of sequence of early adopters, fast followers, and now mainstream. Mainstream are getting accustomed to containers, now hitting up on Kubernetes, we're still pushing the front line. >> Well I think, you know, we are, and I think this is one of my observations as well, Abby, is that we look at these technologies, right? And I'm in the hallways, and I'm talking to folks in the cab line and things along those lines, and they're just here to actually learn about the technology, about Kubernetes, they actually don't understand it fully yet, and they're trying to figure out really what to do with it, and their companies have sent them here. And then it's, you know, you talk to the folks that are, you know, kind of were here for the long haul and were there at the beginning of CNCF and things along those lines, and they're like, "Oh yeah, everyone's adopted it," right? So you've got these two spectrums and I think my question to you is, what do you think is needed for this to really cross the chasm? >> Well, I'll actually answer that with another piece of data We do global research, and one of the things we found, we ask about, "What are your priorities for the next "couple of years?" and resoundingly across every persona, so developers, operators, IT decision makers, executives, their top three priorities for the next two years is continuous delivery. So let's think about that: continuous delivery for me is a priority; building that culture change is a priority; and so the tech is there to supplement that. But the real work, the hard work, is a priority, and I think that's exactly where it should be. So as these organizations really implement that continuous delivery methodology, they're going to pull these technologies in to supplement that. >> So it's not a technology problem, it's a people problem. But your point is, to the industry, let's be realistic and understand the segments that are adopting at what pace, matching education or evangelism or transformation at the right piece of the journey. >> Yeah, I mean all this tech, even Cloud Foundry, is a supplemental tool. >> Yeah. >> The hard work is really continuous delivery, building in that culture change, making software a core part of your business, making technology part of your day-to-day conversation, and that heavy lift has to come in order for any of these technologies to be successful. >> You guys have done a great job, I just want to say, Cloud Foundry, I want to give you some props. Congratulations on the work you've done. Take a minute to talk about some of the success. You're an ingredient in a lot of successful applications out there; what are some of the stats? How many people are using Cloud Foundry? What's some of the uptick, share some of the numbers of the performance with Cloud Foundry. >> Well, I mean we're in use of over half the Fortune 500 across every industry; what's been so phenomenal and so awesome about Cloud Foundry, and we really saw this at Summit, is all the industries that are using this to change. But what was interesting about our last summit, which we just had a couple of weeks ago, is all of these companies want to get on stage and not talk about the tech; they want to talk about the culture change. You know, hearing Boeing get on stage and say, "Actually, you know what the real work is "is the transformation we had to undergo "in order to do this work," and hear that over and over again, and it's so awesome to be part of that change because technology needs to be there to supplement that change and be part of that. But it's really great to see this come into fruition, like hearing the stories from Home Depot and Comcast and US Air Force and how it's fundamentally changing their businesses and helping them get out the door at scale, I mean that's really where the cool stuff happens. >> You've had great success there, and a lot of end users too, it's not like a bunch of one-offs. >> No. >> So how's the summit last week in Boston? >> It was amazing. We had half of our attendees at our summit are end users. And you know, the big high I get is like, hearing everyone talk about what they're doing and "This is what I did!" and stuff you've never heard of. Like, "Oh, I didn't realize you were using that," and "Oh, that's a really great way to use it "in very inventive ways," and so it really just refreshes you, like "Oh, this is what matters." The users and how they're using it and what they're going to do with the tech, I mean, isn't that why we're all here, right? And it's great, and they're creating such amazing technologies that it makes you energized about what's going on. >> Yeah, and I think it's amazing to me, cause I was actually at the Cloud Foundry summit as well, and there was one customer, I can't remember the name that got on stage, and they were using like, they had 2100 end users or something like that, developers, their company actually using Cloud Foundry, and I think that was the number, and I think it was really tremendous to see how many people inside of one company are actually using the technology across the board. It was really great. >> I mean, this is all about, I mean we're at a modern software era, and this is a whole new guard coming on board, and it's a whole new architecture. >> And it's a whole new way of thinking about it. Like, you know right now, we talk about how tech and there's a gap and we're pushing the tech and people are going to get there, but it's not going to be too long before the enterprises are pushing back and saying, "Hey, this is what I need, here's where I am, "I'm running at a scale you didn't think about yet." You know we're running, we have a lot of users that are running tens of thousands and thousands of applications: what about when they're in the hundreds of thousands of applications, and what does that look like? And they're saying, "Well I'm going to do this, "and here's what I need to do." >> There are going to be a lot of microservices. Abby, I got to ask you to end the segment. Thanks for coming on, I know you were rushed to come on, I appreciate you taking the time, you're super busy. What's your priorities for next year? Obviously you got a lot of successes under your belt. What's next, what are you going to check off the list this year? >> Well, inner operability is a big theme for me this year. And what does that mean, that means building bridges to other technologies and other projects, like the amazing work that's happening in CNCF and all those great technologies, so making sure that when those technologies mature, how do we bring those to the enterprise, and then really continuing to work on an ecosystem and work with our members and to really get more contributors around the table. >> Awesome, developers and contributors, dev plus contribute, thanks for coming on. >> My pleasure. >> Thanks Abby. >> You're contributing your insight and I know you've got the voice going, but appreciate you taking the time, so Kube conversations here at theCUBE here in Denmark for KubeCon 2018, part of CNCF. I'm John Furrier with Lauren Cooney, we'll be right back after this short break. (techno music)

>> Announcer: From Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE covering Cloud Foundry Summit 2018 brought to you by the Cloud Foundry Foundation. >> I'm Stu Miniman and this is theCUBE's coverage of Cloud Foundry Summit 2018 here in Boston, Massachusetts, happy to welcome back to the program Abby Kearns who's the executive director and goddess of the Cloud Foundry Foundation. Abby. >> Yes. >> Thanks so much for being here, good morning, good evening. >> Good afternoon. >> You've been running, doing so many sessions here, so, we're really glad that we get to have you on to help us wrap up our coverage. >> My pleasure, what better way to wrap up another amazing day at Cloud Foundry Summit than hanging out with you, Stu? >> Thanks, Abby, it's a pleasure. Look, really, I've said it a few times, but I mean it. One of the reasons I wanted to come here is, I get to talk to a bunch of users and they have great stories, so, it's always cool to talk to the startup doing something neat and different, but another thing, too, when you talk to the US Air Force and they talk about how they're doing drastic change, talk to T-Mobile, you talk to some of these bigger, older companies, and gosh, that's a bad word in the industry, right? But making some big changes, so, take a breath and tell us what your experience has been at the show so far. >> Well, I mean, you hit on my favorite part of the whole show, is getting to spend time with the community, but also the end users. What's so unique about Cloud Foundry Summit is half the attendees are end users. And it's so great to see them all come here and really be willing to put it all out there and get up on stage and talk about what they've done, how they got there, or hear them all fight about who's the more agile hundred-year-old company, which has been a funny conversation today. Allstate was chiming in that they were the young one in the group at 85 years old, so it's... But honestly, we get really caught up in the tech but hearing how people are using it and what they're doing and how it's changing their company is really I think the interesting story. If I'm a journalist, that's what I want to cover, because that's the interesting stuff. >> We had a media dinner and we're not supposed to share the details of them, but I love this discussion. This stuff isn't easy. We actually have the customers sharing the rewards, the challenges, the problems, well, working at a big company, change is definitely not easy. Working with some of this tech, it's not the simplest thing out there. We're working, there's lots of projects, there's lots of different interfaces there, but, still getting measurable great value out of what they're doing. To use an old term, moving the needle on what they're doing, so, it's exciting to see that. You've been in so many sessions, give us some highlights from, say, if you've got a couple of examples or things that, any customer story that you'd want to share. >> I mean, today, I heard a lot about Boeing. Boeing and the journey that they're on has been amazing to hear them talk about how they're changing their company, and even, in fact, they ask, all right, we're going to talk about this at Summit, but I don't want to talk about the tech. I don't want to talk about how we're using CICD, I don't want to talk about any of that. I want to talk about the culture change and having user after user say, I'm actually, want to get onstage and talk, but I don't want to talk about the tech, and that, I think, really shows the excitement and enthusiasm around the transformation process and what that means for them, and for me, as someone watching this outside, you're like, oh my god, this is amazing, and this is such a powerful story to really reflect the role technology has played in enabling that, but also the hard work that has to come into that. >> We often say that the technology is the easy part, it's the people and process stuff that'll be hard. The Foundation and this ecosystem and all the users that are involved, there's a lot of technical challenges, though, that are people working through, so, I wonder, do they underplay some of the technology things that they have to, I mean, learning new technologies, learning new skills, some of that is cultural, but, there is kind of that full spectrum that they have to get engaged with. >> Yeah, well, I just think that Cloud Foundry makes it easy (laughing) from the technology standpoint, because it really pulls a lot of things in together, but, collectively and particularly in open source, the opportunity exists for us to all move forward together. One of my big things I'm pushing for this year is interoperability, and continuing to let the technology evolve and taking advantage of new and innovative technologies, either alongside the platform or inside the platform, but really that's going to be a big focus and it was so great to hear from a lot of these end users, but that's important to them, too. >> Yeah, interoperability, you know, there are some that would look at this and they'd say, oh, they know Cloud Foundry because that thing that came out of VMware and there's this company, Pivotal, filed an S-1, they're going to go public, but, maybe talk a little bit about the ecosystem. There are so many solutions out there which don't yet have the Cloud Foundry branding on it but leverage the technologies in there. >> Yeah, it was really great to announce our eight certified distributions for 2018. We've had two new ones join SUSE Cloud Application Platform and, the most surprising one is Cloud.gov is now a certified distribution. Cloud.gov has done so much to bring digital transformation to the government, and so for them, and AT and F in particular, being able to offer up a platform like Cloud Foundry and the digital transformation initiatives around that, to federal agencies, is such a powerful story. They are literally changing our government, and hearing more and more stories like that have been really exciting, so to see that they now have a certified distribution, so regardless of what industry you're in, or what geo you're in, you have access to a certified distribution, the ability to run it on any cloud, for example, AliCloud is now, it's Cloud Foundry CPI is now available for AliCloud. You can run it on any cloud in the world and that is really showcasing that Cloud Foundry is not only leading the industry in terms of driving this change in these companies and with the technology but the ecosystem around it is continuing to grow and build. >> Maybe share a little bit, the tracks got kind of redone and there's some interesting tracks to kind of highlight, some of those focus areas that you had at the show this year. >> Yeah, for the first time ever, we had a government track. We had so many government use cases. You mentioned the Air Force earlier, AT and F. We have governments around the world that are running Cloud Foundry, so we added a government track. We had also a containers and serverless track. We actually added, last year we added an enterprise track, which is essentially users getting up on stage and talking about what they do. We added a whole track because we had so many submissions for that, and so it's really, again, an interesting opportunity to talk about the core technology and the platform, what's happening around that, but also more importantly how it's being used, and really being able to capture that is important for us. >> All right, the other kind of metric, if you look at the growth, is, when you talk about the ecosystem, there's, I believe it's the Foundry, which is the online marketplace. Speak a little bit to how that's been growing. >> Right, so we launched the Foundry last year in October at our summit in Basel. We launched in initially with 600 services. In short, it's an online marketplace for end users to find services, capabilities, and support, so it lists certified distributions, training partners, as well as technologies that are available that they could run on or alongside the platform and since October, we had now announced this week that we actually have over 4900 services in there now, so it's continuing to grow, but also, one thing I hadn't mentioned is it is our most highly trafficked page in our website, so it's continuing to drive the most traffic because end users care about it, but it's also really an area where we can showcase the breadth of the Cloud Foundry ecosystem. >> Yeah, I talked a little bit with Chip about this, but, there's not just one project, there's so many things getting involved. Maybe give us a little bit of the philosophy from the Foundation. What's the most important thing and how do you keep growing without sprawling? (laughing) >> Well, I think Cloud Foundry has always had really strong opinions about where we go and one of the things that we work, collectively work together on, is keeping a core shared vision, so there is a common core where the innovation continues to grow and happen, but allowing space and room for everyone to be able to differentiate from either different commercial go-to-market, or extensibility or extensions. For example, if you look at just our distributions alone, we've got one that focuses on federal government, we've got Pivotal Cloud Foundry, but we've got also an SAP cloud platform and really it's focusing on changing not only SAP customers, but also the way SAP thinks about software, and so seeing these different variations of the same core technology, is also a big driver of the inspiration, it's like, so many different perspectives around the table that really can drive and push the technology to do new and innovative things. >> All right, Abby, want to give the the final word. People that haven't been to the show, there's so much online. Any special things you'd want to call out, or final thoughts? >> Well, one, if you haven't been to the show, you should definitely come. We have another one coming up in October 11th and 12th in Basel, Switzerland, so if you've never been to Basel, it's a great way to come experience Summit for the first time. All the videos from all the sessions and key notes will be made available on YouTube usually within about a week, so anything that you missed if you were here, you can catch up there, and we're going to just keep talking about what we're doing and continuing to promote it and we'd love for more people to join us on the process. >> All right, well, Abby Kearns, always a pleasure to catch up with you. Thanks to the Foundation again for helping us bring this coverage, all of our content, of course, is always out there. It will be on theCUBE.net. Talking to many of the people in the Cloud Foundry ecosystem at many shows throughout the year, so, thanks, Abby, and the whole Foundation. A great lineup of customers, partners, and thought leaders in this space. Thanks to Brian and Alex for helping us do this coverage and be sure to check out all of our coverage on theCUBE.net. I'm Stu Miniman, thanks for watching theCUBE.

(bouncy electronic music) [Narrator] Live from Las Vegas, it's the CUBE. Covering InterConnect 2017 brought to you by IBM. >> Hey welcome back everyone, we are live in Las Vegas for IBM InterConnect 2017. This is the CUBE's coverage of IBM's Cloud and data show. I'm John Furrier, with my co-host Dave Vellante. Our next guest is Abby Kearns, Executive Director of Cloud Foundry Foundation. Welcome to the CUBE! >> Welcome, thank you! >> Thanks for joining us, so Cloud Foundry, you're new as the executive role, Sam had moved on to Microsoft? >> Abby: Google. >> Google, I'm sorry, Google, he was formerly at Microsoft, former Microsoft employee, but Google, Google Cloud Next was a recent show. >> Yeah. >> So, you're new. >> I'm new. >> John: To the reins but you're not new, new to the community. >> I've been a part of the community for several years prior to joining the foundation a year ago I was at Pivotal for a couple of years so I've been part of the Cloud Foundry community for several years and it's a technology that's near and dear to my heart and it's a community that I am very passionate about. >> And the emergence of Cloud Foundry if you think about it has really kind of changed the game it's really lifted all the boats, if you will, rising tide floats all boats. IBM uses it, you've got a lot of customers. Just go down the list of the notable folks working with Cloud Foundry. >> Well, look no further than those that are on our board and those that represent the strategic vision around the Cloud Foundry, so IBM, Pivotal, but, Dell EMC, and Cisco and SAP and VMware and Allianz and Swisscom. And of course, Pivotal. I think all of them really bring such a broad perspective to the table. But then broadening beyond that community, our community has grown so much. A lot of people don't realize that Cloud Foundry has only been an open-source project for just a little over two years, so January 2015 marked when it became an official open-source project. Prior to that it was part of Pivotal. And in that little-over-two years, we've grown to nearly 70 members in our community and are just excited to continue to grow and bring more perspectives to the table. >> So what has been the differences, a lot of people have been taking a different approach on for Bluemix, for instance, they have a good core at Cloud Foundry. Is it going the way you guys had thought as a community, that this was the plan all along? Because you see people really kind of making some good stuff out of the Cloud Foundry. Was that part of the plan, this open direction? >> Well I think part of the plan was really coalescing around the single vision of that abstraction And what's the whole vision of Cloud Foundry, it's to allow developers to create code faster. And whatever realm that takes. Our industry is evolving and it's evolving so quickly and exciting, all of these enterprise organizations that are becoming software companies. I mean how exciting is that? As we think about the abstraction that Cloud Foundry can provide for them and the automation it can provide, it allows them to focus on one thing and one thing only, creating code that changes their business. We're really focused myopically on ensuring that developers have the ability to quickly and easily create code and innovate quickly as an organization. >> So on the development side, sometimes standards can go fall down by forcing syntax or forcing certain things. You guys had a different approach, looking back now, what were the key things that were critical for Cloud Foundry to maintain its momentum? >> I think a couple of things. It's a complex distributed system but it is put together amazingly well. Quality was first and foremost, part of its origins. And it's continued to adhere to that quality and that control around the development process and around the release process. So Cloud Foundry as an open-source project is very much a governance by contribution. So we look for those in the organizations and different communities to be part of it and contribute. So we have the full-time committers that are basically doing this all day, every day, and then we have the contributors that are also part of the community providing feedback and value. >> And there was a big testimonial with American Airlines on stage, that's a big win. >> Abby: Yes, it is a big win. >> Give us some color on that deal. >> I can't give you any details on the deal that IBM has-- >> But that's a Cloud Foundry, IBM-- >> But it is Cloud Foundry, yes. >> You guys were part of the Bluemix thing? >> Yes. And American Airlines is a company that I have a lot of history with, They were a customer of mine for many years in the early 2000s, so I'm thrilled to see them innovating and taking advantage of a platform. >> So, help us unpack this conversation that's going on around PaaS, right? >> Some people say, "oh, PaaS is pase," but it's development tools and it's programming and it's a platform that you've created, so what do you make of that conversation? What implications does it have to your strategy and your ecosystem strategy? >> Well, I for one don't like the term PaaS anyway, so I'm happy to say PaaS is pase. Because I do think it's evolved, so when I talk about Cloud Foundry, I talk about it as a Cloud application platform. Because at the end of the day, our goal is to help organizations create code faster. The high degrees of automation, the abstraction that the platform brings to the table, it isn't just a platform, it is an enabler for that development. So we think about what that means, it's, can I create applications faster and do I have a proliferation of services to your ecosystem point that enable applications to grow and to scale and to change the way that organization works. Because it's a technology-enabled business transformation for many of these organizations. >> John: It's app-driven, too, that's the key to success. >> It's app-driven, which is why we talk so much about developers, is because that's the key, if I'm going to become a software company, what does that mean? I am writing code, and that code is changing the way I think about my business and my consumers. >> And the app landscape has certainly changed with UX creativity, but now you've got IoT, there's a real functional integration going on with the analog world going digital, it's like, "Whoa, "I've got all this stuff that's now instrumented "connected to the internet!" IoT, Internet of Things. That's going to be interesting, Cloud has to power that. >> I think it does, because what is IoT reliant on? Applications that take advantage of that data. That's what you're looking to gain, you're looking to have small applications streaming large amounts of data from sensors, be it from cars, or be it from a manufacturing plant, if you're thinking industrial IoT, so Cloud Foundry provides the platform for many of these applications to be developed, created, and scaled at the level that companies like GE, and Siemens, and others are looking to build out and tackle that IoT space. >> It's open, I mean we can all agree that Cloud Foundry's the most open platform to develop applications on, but developers have choices. You're seeing infrastructure as a service, plus you're seeing SAS kind of minus emerge. How should we be thinking about the evolution, you said earlier it evolved, where is it evolving to? Obviously you bet on open, good bet. Other more propriet... I don't even know what open is anymore sometimes (Abby laughs) >> But we can agree that Cloud Foundry's open. But how should we be thinking about the evolution going forward? >> Well that's the beauty of open, right? What is open-source, open-source brings together a diverse set of perspective and background to innovate faster. And that's where we are, we're seeing a lot of technology evolve. I mean, just think about all of the things that evolved the last two years. Where we've had technologies come up, some go down, but there's so much happening right now, because the time is now. For these companies that are trying to develop more applications, or trying to figure out ways to not only develop these applications, but develop them at scale and really grow those out and build those and IoT, and you're getting more data, and we're capturing those data and operationalizing that data and it comes back to one thing. Applications that can take advantage of that. And so I think there's the potential, as we build out and innovate both the ecosystem but the platform will naturally evolve and take advantage of those winds from these organizations that are driving this to scale. >> So scale is the linchpin. >> Abby: Yeah. >> If you think about traditional paths, environments, if I can use that term, they're limited in scale, and obviously simplicity. Is that another way to think about it? >> I think about it this way, the platform enables you to run fast. You're not running fast with scissors. You want to be able to run fast safely. And so it provides that abstraction and those guardrails so you can quickly iterate and develop and deploy code. If I look at what... HCSE as a company. They went from developing an application, it took them 35 people and nine months to create an app, right? And now with Cloud Foundry, they're able to do it with four people and six weeks. It changes the way you work as an organization. Just imagine as you scale that out, what that means. Imagine the changes that can bring in your organization when you're software-centric and you're customer-first and you're bringing that feedback loop in. >> And you guys do a lot of heavy lifting on behalf of the customer, but you're not hardening it to the point where they can't mold it and shape it to what they want is kind of what I'm-- >> No, we want to abstract away and automate as much as possible, the things you care about. Resiliency, auto-scaling, the ability to do security and compliance, because those are things you care about as an enterprise. Let's make that happen for you, but then give the control to the developer to self provision, to scale, to quickly deploy and iterate, do continuous delivery. All of those things that allow you to go from developing an app once a year to developing an app and iterating on that app constantly, all the time. >> So I've been wanting to ask you to kind of take a step back, and look at the community trends right now. PC Open Stack has a trajectory, it's becoming more of an infrastructure, as a service, kind of settling in there. That's gone through a lot of changes. Seeing a lot of growth in IoT, which we talked about. You're starting to see some movement in the open-source community. CNCF has got traction, The Linux Foundation, Cloud Native, you've got the Kubernetes, I call it the Cold War for orchestration going on right now so it's a really interesting time, microservices are booming. This is the holy grail for developers for the next gen. It's going to be awesome, like machine learning, everyone's getting intoxicated on that these days, so super cool things coming down the pike. >> For sure, I think we're in the coolest time. >> What's going on in the communities, is there any movement, is there trends, is there a sentiment among the developer communities that you see that you could... Any patterns developing around what people are gravitating to? >> I think developers want the freedom to create. They want the ability to create applications and see those come to fruition. I think a lot of things that were new and innovative a couple of years ago and even now, are becoming table stakes. For example, five years ago, having a mobile app as a bank was new and interesting and kind of fun. Now, it's table stakes. Are you going to go bank with a bank that doesn't have one? Are you going to bank with a bank that doesn't have it? It becomes table stakes or, who doesn't, if you don't have fraud detection which is basically event driven responses, right? And so you think about what table stakes are and what, as we think about the abstraction moving up, that's really where it's going to get interesting. >> But open-source community, is it going to move to these new ground, what I'm trying to get at is to see what's happening, what's the trend in the developer community. What's hot, what's fashionable. Is there new projects popping up that you could share that you think is cool and interesting? >> Well they're all cool and interesting. >> John: You'd rather not comment. (laughs) >> I think they're all cool and interesting, I think, you know, CNCF is a sister organization underneath The Linux Foundation. >> John: They kind of inherited that from Kub Con though. Kubernetes Con. >> Yeah, I think they're doing interesting things. I think any organizations that's promoting Cloud Native application architecture and the value of that, we all deserve to be part of the same conversation because to your point earlier, a rising tide lifts all boats. And if every organizations is doing Cloud Native application architectures and Cloud Native solutions, it's going to be super interesting. >> We just had STRAD at Duke, we ran our own event last week called Big Data SV, and it's very clear to us that the big data world industry and Cloud are coming together and the forcing function is machine learning, IoT, and then AI is the appeal, that's the big trend that's kind of, puts a mental model around but IoT is driving this data and the Cloud horsepower is forcing this to move faster. It seems to be very accelerated. >> But, it also enables so much, I mean if you can operationalize this data that you're aggregating and turn it into actionable apps that do things for your business, save money, improve logistics, reach your users better and faster, you start to see the change and the shift that that can bring. You have the data married with the apps, married with the in point sensors and all of a sudden this gets to be a really interesting evolution of technology. >> So what's your hundred day plan, well you're in the hundred day plan already. So what's your plan for this year as new Executive Director for Cloud Foundry, what's on the agenda, what's your top three things you're going to chip away at this year for objectives? >> Developers, developers, developers, does that count as top three? >> More, more, more? Increase the developer count? (laughs) >> Just really, reaching out to the developers and ensuring that they're able to be successful in Cloud Foundry. So I think you'll hear more from us in the next couple of weeks about that. But, ensuring-- >> John: The proof points, basically? >> The proof points, but just ensuring they can be successful and ensuring that scale is affable for them, and then really, our summits are even changing. We've actually added developer tracks to our summit, to make them a place not only where you can learn about Cloud Foundry, but also where you can work with other developers and learn from them and learn about specific languages, but also, how to enable those into Cloud Native application architectures and I think our goal this year is to really enrich that development community and build that pipeline and help fill those gaps. >> And celebrate the wins like the American Airlines of the world, and as IBM and others are successful, then it gets to be less... You don't want to have cognitive dissonance as a developer, that's the worst thing, developers want to make sure they're on a good bus with good people. >> You've obviously got some technology titans behind you, IBM the most prominent, I would say, but obviously guys like VMware, and Cisco, and others, but you've also got [Interference] organizations, guys like Allianz, VW, Allstate I think was early-on in the program. >> JPMC, Citibank. >> Yeah, I shouldn't have started, 'cause I know I'd leave some out, but you're the Executive Director, so you have to fill in the gaps. That's somewhat unique, in a consortium like this. Somewhat, but that many is somewhat unique. Is there more traction there? What's their motivation? >> Abby: As a user? >> Yeah. >> Well, to your earlier point, we're an open-source, right? And what's the value, if I'm an enterprise and I'm looking to take advantage of a platform, but also an open-source platform, open-source allows me to be part of that conversation. I can be a contributor, I can be part of the direction, I can influence where it's going and I think that is a powerful sentiment, for many of these organizations that are looking to evolve and become more software-centric, and this is a good way for them to give back and be part of that momentum. >> And Cloud's exploding, more open-source is needed, it's just a great mission. Congratulations on the new job, and good luck this year. We'll keep in touch, and certainly see you at the Cloud Foundry Summit, that's in San Fransisco again this year? >> Santa Clara, June 13th through 15th. >> John: So every year, you guys always have the fire code problem. (laughs) >> Well I think I'm going to go on record now and officially say this, this will be our last year there, which I think everyone's excited about, 'cause I think we're all over Santa Clara right now. (laughs) >> Alright, well, we'll see you there. Abby Kearns, Executive Director of Cloud Foundry Foundation, here inside the CUBE, powering the Cloud, this is the CUBE's coverage of IBM InterConnect 2017. Stay with us, more coverage after this short break. (bouncy electronic music)

>> Voiceover: Live from San Francisco, it's The Cube covering DevNet Create 2017 brought to you by Cisco. >> Welcome back everyone. Live in San Francisco, this is exclusive Cube coverage of DevNet Create, Cisco's inaugural event where they're going out into the devops world into the community ingratiating and donating a million dollars for hardware, really taking their DevNet developer program to the next level, really creating an open developer devops ethos. Coverage two days. I'm John Furrier with my co-host, Peter Burris, head of wikibon.com research, also head of research SiliconANGLE Media. Our next guest is Abby Kearns, Executive director of Cloud Foundry. Welcome back to The Cube. Good to see you. >> Always a pleasure. >> I'm excited to chat with you for multiple reasons. One, you've got a hot product but at Dell EMC world more than ever you start to see the emergence of Cloud Foundry coalescing, not consolidating, coalescing the stakeholders. >> Abby: Yeah. >> And so you start to see multi-cloud starting to develop as the swim lane or a path, certainly hybrid cloud is hot. Cloud Foundry is kind of interesting right now. So, congratulations. Give us the update. What's going on? Obviously, you've got a spring in your step. What's happening? >> Well, not to be biased, but I feel like Cloud Foundry's always been interesting. >> John: Well, from a growth standpoint, now more than ever. >> Yeah, we started talking about multi-cloud a year ago. So, it's really interesting to see it really taking form in the industry where people are like, "Yes." People don't want to be locked into a single cloud. Yes, they want to have choice. And yes, they want to be able to take their workloads and move them anywhere and public cloud, right now, has gotten such amazing traction. And they're coming up with interesting things. You know, GCP is really coming into it's own and Azure's really starting to take shape. I think there's a lot of potential for a lot of features and services to really be available. >> The thing I like talking to you about is ... Talking with you is because you're in an area that is misunderstood early on. You've been beating on this drum, we've talked about this before. Andy, Jessie and I had similar conversations about this, but Amazon, how they were misunderstood in the beginning. People were dismissing it. And so there's always a tipping point. The Cube's the same way. "What do you guys do?" And we keep on ... And then people figure it out. That's kind of when the rest of the world, mainstream starts to get it and in particular, these are the model. What was the tipping point for you because I know that you had this same vision. What's the tipping point now? Why are we now is it happening? Because of the pressure? Is it because now the tools are coming to the table? What's the forcing function that's taking Cloud Foundry from this alternative approach to a viable, scalable opportunity? >> Well, I think it's always been viable. I think where we are, though, is we're seeing users starting to get traction on digital transformation. And I know digital transformation, everyone's like, "God, not that term again. We're so tired of it." But, it's true. It's more of these enterprise organizations are, "I'm now a software company," or, "I'm now competing against Airbnb or Tesla." You know, the landscape is changing and so as they realize they become software companies and they need to develop software, they're investing more in developers and development and they're like, "Oh, well, how do I do that quickly? How do I really focus on that?" Because turns out really investing in a lot of other ancillary aspects isn't core to my business. It's not changing who I am. And so investing in technology, in software in particular, allows you to differentiate your business. And so a platform like Cloud Foundry really abstracts the way an infrastructure automates that as much as possible, so the developers have the freedom to create. And that's really what's going to differentiate businesses that are becoming software companies. >> So, as you think about the developer, break it down where you think it's going to be in about five years. Because we're here at the developer conference and most of these people are folks with network expertise or folks with traditional software development expertise coming into the world where we're going to build distributed applications. Very, very important stuff. But as you think about the characteristics or how the demographics of what the developer is, how much is it going to be the professional hard-core developer, how much of it is going to be citizen development? Where do you think all this goes in five years as we start to see how all this new software gets created to serve all the business needs that are on the horizon of a digital world? >> Well, my opinion is that eventually everyone is going to be a developer of some type, whether it's taking advantage of business logic or operationalizing outcomes from machine learning or automotive AI, just taking advantage of that. But in five years, I think, where we are today, the technology is definitely growing faster than user's capability to adopt it all. So, there is a growing gap there. >> And use cases are emerging as well. So, another dimension to that complexity is new devices are connected. >> Exactly, so I think there's going to be an exponential over the next couple of years of growth in terms of the technology, what it enables, why it enables, and how the users are adopting it. Because I think we all theorize about what users could do and will do, but at the end of the day, if these large enterprise organizations start actually putting the focus and the force behind development, imagine what they can come up with. You know, look at what GE's doing with Predix, or SAP is doing with their cloud platform and think about the investment around those applications and the ability to influence where we go. You know, seven years ago we wouldn't have predicted the iPhone would be the tool that it is today. Or the iPad or the way that we actually make use of these as platforms because of the applications. The applications have really driven the innovation around that and I think we'll start seeing that the applications and the use cases really driving the innovation leaps. >> Talk about the challenges and opportunities that digital transformation has for business that are trying to get there and there's obviously different business profiles, startup, fast growing, public company, I mean, Ford. There's a customer of yours I know, I don't want to get into the whole Mark Fields thing. There's challenges at different levels of the organizations. So, to implement devops, at the end of the day, Ford's trying to get better cars, not necessarily a better cloud. Cloud enables them to do things. So, companies have to look at this and have a journey. What is the part that you see that companies are doing well from a journey standpoint and how are they laying out that digital transformation with Cloud Foundry? >> Well, I think more than a journey, they have to have a clear vision, a clear idea where they want to go. Because at the end of the day, technology shouldn't be the goal. Technology should be the enabler to achieve that goal. And ensuring that companies can maintain that clear vision, and really lead from the top with that vision, because, at the end of the day, we talk about digital transformation. Technology is a topic I talk about a lot because, obviously, Cloud Foundry's focusing on the technology piece, but the cultural shift, what it enables is really what's both critical, but also the most difficult. These organizations are trying to transform and become software companies, are also fundamentally changing their business model, their organization, and the way they leverage technology and that's a huge shift for many of these organizations. >> Actually businesses, we were talking before the camera how companies should look at that process because you have to kind of invest and it's not just the old days, you buy a general purpose software stack. Then the suppliers took care of it, say Oracle, whoever. Hey, they supply it, they turnkey, there's some TCO, total cost of ownership involved. I get that. But now, with developers, you're talking about training, you're talking about devops, you're talking about real investment. >> Restructuring, hiring, retention. It changes fundamentally the way you think about everything. How do you hire developers? How do you hire cloud native developers? How do you retain talent? How do you restructure teams? When we talk about two-pizza teams or cross-functional alignment, what that's really saying is, "Hey, I need you to rethink your entire org structure and the way that you incentivize people and motivate people." >> John: And fund it. >> And funding is like, you know, gone are the days of give me your five year plan and we'll do your capex and OPEX allocations. But it needs to be more iterative because you're encouraging agile. You're saying fell fast or iterate more. You're really saying I want you to take ideas and iterate on them, get them out the door, and then maybe that doesn't work. Maybe we try again. But the idea is to continue to iterate and innovate on that. >> Abby, what trends are you seeing in terms of pattern recognition as you go out and evangelize and support your customers with Cloud Foundry? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder depending on how you implement your cloud, IBM and others, the customers. What's the pattern that's consistent across the Cloud Foundry ecosystem that's happening right now, that's maybe different from a few years ago that's emerging? >> Well, to me, the Cloud Foundry users are key. I spend a lot of time talking to them because, for me, it's interesting. We can theorize about the technology and where it should go, but at the end of the day, how you're using it and what you're doing with it is the most important, one might say. >> John: And what are they doing? What are some examples? >> They are really starting to get traction. I mean, Comcast is a great example. The amount of traction they've gained. They have over 1000 developers working on Cloud Foundry right now. Over 10,000 applications running on it. They're doing 180 million transactions per day. That is huge. And, for them, it's not just the amount of investment they've got in it, but it's also how it's transforming the way they work. How much more productive they are and how getting better ideas out to the hands of customers. It's changing the way that they think about customers. Improving the way that they connect to their customers and that's the fundamental shift. >> Have you observed any, because we've, again, been funding the present creation of these events, especially inaugural events like DevNet Create for Cisco, which is to put their toes in the water, but they're committed to it. CubeCon, we saw that emerge. We saw Cloud Native emerge back in the 2008 timeframe with The Cube. Open Stack, obviously, has trajectory. Are you seeing a community expansion? Certainly there's expansion of the community in general. But we're seeing our Cube alumni fans here. I saw Patrick Riley earlier. I saw Lisa Marie. There's not one community any more. There's a series of new communities. OpenStack is one, you got Cloud Native Foundation, or Compute ... CNCF, you've got Cloud Foundry. There seems to be kind of like a flowing set of people in the community. What's happening in the community layers. I mean, it's all good. Does it mean anything? >> Yeah, it means open source is amazing. Because, at the end of the day, that's what's amazing about open source. We can do work with other projects in other communities. We have a great relationship with OpenStack. We have a great relationship with our sister CNCF. In fact the open service broker API project that we announced last year was a way to really take the best of great technology and make it available across other platforms and communities. Because at the end of the day, when we're talking about open source, when we're talking about bringing together diverse perspectives, diverse people to innovate more. So, collaborative R&D is where open source can really drive real value. >> It's an expansion of the community of open source. By the way, I will note that we cover, Hugh, Peter we talked about open source that have gone public. Cloud Air, MuleSoft, the list goes on and on. There's multiple new IPOs. Since RedHat and Hortonworks started that wave, so real companies. >> Real companies doing real things on open source. >> Let me push on this open source concept really quickly because it's very clear that it's been a successful model. But open source has been most successful where the marketplace has a very clear convention of what is being open source. For example, we knew what a UNIX operating system was. LINUX is an open source option. Came very clear. When you think about big data and Hadoop, the use cases of big data, the use cases associated with very complex analytics, not as clear. So, we get a lot of open source stuff that's being created that kind of marginally improves things. How is the open source world through companies like Cloud Air that can provide some leadership going to evolve to get more focus on use cases and how we're going to apply this through open source innovation, as opposed to just creating software that is defined in terms of other open source software around it? What are your thoughts on that? >> Well, I think, going back to the point about diverse participation, that's where the real innovation's happening. So, the innovation isn't really happening at a single company or a single individual. It's happening when you bring together a bunch of individuals and a bunch of different organizations with a bunch of different perspectives. Because that's where you really start to see value. Because you're thinking outside of the box that you know. When you start thinking outside of your known use case, your known customer base and start bringing in other perspectives, that's where you're really able to push the envelope a little bit more and a little bit faster and also build and accelerated ecosystem around that quickly of people that want to participate and commit to driving that and continue to drive that innovation. >> That is recruiting opportunity for the companies. I mean, we were just talking about Cisco being closer to networking side. This is an opportunity to have a foray into innovation, but also recruiting, getting some new blood in. >> What we found in our research that developers actually list that as one of their driving factors on whether or not they're going to join a company. What is their level of participation in an open source project because they want to be able to be part of something bigger. They want to be able to contribute and be able to influence where that technology is going and that is power. >> You're starting to see on GitHub on about pages companies on the executive masthead. Check out my GitHub, see what my code ... Again, this is the badge of honor like in the gaming world where you see how many merit badges you got or guns you've acquired, depending which game you do. But in a way, this is now really the resumes, not the static LinkedIn and it's like what code have you done, what communities are you in. It almost really is a testament. >> I think it's exciting because it's saying that we not only care about technology, but we care about where it's going and that's real exciting both from an open source standpoint, but also as a developer and as a business leader. That should be exciting because you're now able to influence the technology. >> Okay, final question for you Abby. What does this event mean to you? Obviously Cisco is a new event, inaugural event, very cool, very humble, very well one by Suzy and the team, but they have a DevNet Create Cisco Developer Program. Networking guys, we know there. What does this mean, in your opinion, in terms of Cisco's statement to the industry? >> I think any program that really wants to bring developers together and give them an opportunity to collaborate, and develop more, I think it's amazing. That's something that we strive for at Cloud Foundry as well in our event coming up in a couple of weeks, which I think you'll be at. >> John: We'll be there, yep. >> It's also we're trying to mimic something similar, giving an opportunity for developers to come together, share ideas, share knowledge and contribute and work together on common projects. >> Final, final question since you brought up the event. Give us a quick preview of what to expect at the Cloud Foundry Summit in San Francisco. >> Yes, so in a couple of weeks we will host Cloud Foundry Summit North America. There's some announcements that you should pay attention to. >> John: Come on, tell us! >> Some really exciting announcements. >> Put the dots out there, we'll connect them. >> Some new new members that we're excited about joining as well as some new technology announcements. But more than that, it's our first time. We've really been rejiggering the structure of the event and we like to think of ourselves of an agile foundation. And we wanted to encourage more developers to be there, so, we're offering developer language track, so with Node and Cloud Native Java and SAP's got a track. But more than that we're also going to be announcing general availability of the Cloud Foundry Certified Developer. So, we're going to offer training on site and certification on site for the first time. So, the idea is to make this a place for developers to come and share ideas and network, but also learn more about not just Cloud Foundry, but cloud native best practices. >> So, a confab with all the bells and whistles, plus now the learning tracks to make it kind of a hands-on event. Abby Kearns, executive director of Cloud Foundry here at Cisco's inaugural DevNet Create events, Cube's coverage. I'm John Furrier with Peter Burris. Stay with us and check out Cloud Foundry Summit in a few weeks. I'm John Furrier with Peter Burris. We'll be right back. (techno music)

>> Narrator: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is theCUBE conversation. >> Hey, welcome back everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE, we're in our Palo Alto studios, the COVID crisis continues. Luckily we've got the ability to interview guests from remote and so we're excited to have this next guest. There's a lot of activity going on around equality and gender diversity, Black Lives Matter, and it feels like it really does feel like there's kind of a step function in moving this along. And there's a lot of groups out there that are trying to take a very active role, and one of the things they're trying to do is help women get on more corporate board seats, more representation, and we're really excited to have our next guest. Who's really taking a slightly different approach, a new approach to this, and we're happy to be joined by Rita Scroggin. She is the founder of FirstBoard.io, and she's also the Practice Director, Executive Group at Triad Group. So Rita, great to see you. >> Thank you very much, Jeff, for having me, I'm super excited to be here and to share the story about FirstBoard.io, what we're doing and how hopefully that will change the world just a little bit. >> That's great. Well, the way that this came about is I was on LinkedIn, I'm on LinkedIn all the time, and all of a sudden this big picture hit my feed and a ton of familiar faces. I think that's what it is four by eight. And I see Abby Kearns, Dao Jensen, Eve Maler, Wendy Perilli, Jocelyn is in there Syamla in there. And I thought, wow, I know a bunch of these women, and I'm always happy to promote the women in theCUBE alumni. And I reached out and I think it was Wendy said, "Hey, this is... She said, "I'm a founding member of this thing called FirstBoard.io. And I (indistinct) and she said, we got to talk to Rita. So it was great to meet you. And this is a new organization. I think you said you started at the very beginning of this year. >> Yeah. >> Why? Let's get kind of to the origin story. >> Yeah. >> What gave you the idea? Why did you think that this was something that needed to be done? And what caused you to actually take the leap of faith and start FirstBoard? >> Yeah, very good question. So in the fall of 2019, I did an event in partnership with K&L Gates and it was about how to get on board, and it wasn't gender specific, but I invited a lot of women from my network, and through K&L Gates, there was a speaker on the panel, Cheryl Bolton, who is now a supporter of FirstBoard.io. And we spoke after the panel discussion, so I was the moderator, and she said, "Do you place people or women specifically, "on private company boards? I said, I do now let's have a conversation about that. So we talked some more and we kind of felt like there's really a need for companies to diversify their boards, particularly private tech companies. And so then I thought about more about the idea. I reached out to a few women in my network and I said, hey, I have this idea. I'm thinking about starting an initiative around this topic, would you be interested in being part of it? And a lot of the women who I reached out to said, I'd love the idea, I would love to get involved. So that was really the origin, then we met, we had a little sort of social get together in, I think it was early December in Palo Alto. And then we said, let's launch officially in January, which we did. So in January we had our first and only in-person meeting, the idea initially was that we would meet every quarter in person. So it would be very localized to Silicon Valley and then COVID happened and everything changed. And we are now meeting via Zoom every six to eight weeks. We have members who are in different locations, most of our members are on Silicon Valley, but we also have a member in New York, in Seattle, in Dallas, and I might forget a location, but we're a little bit more distributed right now. And so that is where we are today. >> So you've done it a little bit different. You've got this group of women, there's 32 women in that picture, the founding members. And so you're taking almost like a cohort approach, a group approach. Why that approach? What did you see that wanted you to go that way, versus doing individual searches for individual companies, looking for individual kind of board members. Why the group approach? What type of dynamic does that introduce? How do the women leverage one another inside of this structure? >> Yeah, that's a good question. That's really the idea. The idea is that we work together collaboratively and that we leverage each other's networks. We raise each other's platform. I might know 10 or 15 or whatever, decision makers let's say VCs, CEOs, but the next member might know an equal number or more or less. So what I was thinking is if we leverage each other's network, we exponentially grow our network and we exponentially grow our visibility. So our focus right now is to really raise the profile of FirstBoard.io and the profile of each member of the group. So it it's fundamentally different, 'cause we're working together, kind of almost like a company that can accelerate where if we have a success, it's everybody's success. Because it raises the profile of everybody else. >> Right. >> So that's the idea, which is different than a networking organization, where you are an unknown member. And we're trying to make this in a different way. >> Right, right. And is the goal, within all the women that have joined, the founding members for all of them to get on a board, I mean, is that all of them are >> That's the goal. qualified people to be on a proper board. >> Yeah, that is the goal, that's the idea, we may not accomplish that in the first round because this is a problem that's been going on for a long time, but we're getting close to our first board placement. So that's I think initial great success. And we're working on a number of initiatives right now to raise the profile. We're doing a video interview with all our supporters. We are creating a campaign, how to reach out to CEOs and VCs. So we're working on a number of things right now behind the background to really target our audience, and our audience is specific to the tech world. So we're focusing really on private tech companies and we're focusing on our decision makers within those organizations. So whether it's the investor, the private equity, growth equity, or venture capital community, or the CEO or other board members for that matter, who may be aware that there's an opening and we're trying to tap into those as well. >> Right, right. So you've mentioned Silicon Valley, VCs and private equity a couple of times. So is the focus more in kind of that ecosystem that we're familiar with here in Silicon Valley with more private, kind of private and growth opportunities, or are you also just fully looking for large, regular public companies as well? >> We wouldn't turn down a public company opportunity, but none of our members have been on a board so far. And I think it's probably more realistic that, the first board position might be at a private tech company where the operating experience is particularly valuable. So that's our primary focus in terms of reaching out of the old But if a public company would come our way and say, we absolutely would love to talk to some of your members, of course we wouldn't turn that down. >> Jeff: Right. >> But actively we are going after private tech companies, and they can be located anywhere, so it's not specific this to Silicon Valley, of course a lot of tech companies are clustered there or here, but it could also be company in New York, or Boston, or wherever, but the focus is really on tech versus a broader focus of any kind of company. >> Right, right. So when you're working with these women who've never been on a board, what do you find is kind of the biggest gap that they need to fill, whether that's a real gap or perceived gap in their either skillsets or experience or whatever, to kind of make the jump and get into one of these board seats. Is it in any particular skill, any particular kind of point of view, what are the types of things that you do as a group to help them be better received, I guess, for the opportunities? >> Yeah. What we don't do is we don't really a training program or prep here. There are other organizations who do that, I think we do a very, very good job. Some of our members are part of other organizations as well. So what we're thinking more is the company oftentimes has, in a certain growth stage, has a gap in some form. And in looking at board opportunities, I think it's important to identify where's that gap, maybe it's go to market, or maybe it is a certain technical expertise, and match them up with the experience of our founding members. So we don't have a program to prepare women, we're more focused on... Okay, we're assuming you're prepared, that might be various degrees, and we're just trying to match kind of the operating expertise to the gap on a fully independent board member at any given company. >> Right, right I think we talked before we turned on the cameras, the three things you said you focus on really is, is operational expertise, skill experience, as well as domain expertise. >> Yeah. >> And so you're really trying to kind of map against a gap that the company has against a skillset that one of the members has. >> Yeah. So far I've sort of facilitated three different board opportunities and two of them, what they had in common, that the company was looking for somebody who really had domain expertise with the audience they were looking at, and who understood the buyer, and who had deep expertise in what to market strategies, developing them. So that's one example, right. And the other company, the third one was looking for somebody who had connections in the space who really understood that particular domain. And so it all depends, and I think it also depends on what stage the company's in. And I think the further along the company is, the more it's about governance and regulations. And earlier on, it's really filling a certain gap on the leadership team. >> Right. >> In the private equity world is also very interesting to us because oftentimes there's a timeline and there are certain growth objectives the company wants to reach. And that's a great opportunity, I think, for FirstBoard to bring in a founding member with that particular operating expertise. >> Right, right. So I'm curious, that's a great segue into kind of the customer side, if you will, the people that are looking for board members. Have you seen over the last several months or years, I'll open it up, kind of a shift in terms of people a, just kind of accepting that there are going to be more women and people of color on the board, but also more of kind of an active search and a more kind of progressive goal to make sure that they do increase the diversity on their boards, whether that be for women or people of color or whatever, just to bring more diversity. Have you seen a shift in your customer base, in terms of they're really focused on prioritization on that? >> Well, I think it's certainly on people's mind and I think now more so than ever with the recent changes and sort of uprising of Black Lives Matter, but I wouldn't say that has really transferred over into real meaningful diversity on boards. I think we still have a long, long way to go, and there's an organization, Him For Her, and I think it was the Calyx Management Institute, they did a study last year and they found that privately, heavily funded companies, 60% of those don't have a single woman on the board. And I think women in general held about 7% of board seats at these companies. So I think there's still a long way to go, but I think it's very important that in the future, a larger proportion of the population is reflected in the boards. Right? So whether it's women, women of color, people of color, so everybody should be part of the leadership team on the board level and on the leadership level. And I think that has become certainly more of a topic, I think, especially for large companies. And I think startups are now recognizing that it's important for them too, especially if they want to be perceived as a company, which has fair and equal values. >> Right. Right. So given that kind of landscape, if you will, what are kind of the expectations that you have with this founding member group? And I presume there'll be other groups in the future once these people all find a great board seat and are doing their thing, kind of, is it a really tough road ahead? Do you see that it's really not that tough on maybe in the macro level, but on the micro level there are some real opportunities, how are you as a group of 32 founding members trying to take this Hill, if you will, against pretty tough odds actually. >> But I think we're going to take it one step at a time. We already did a press release, we have a website, we have some visibility on LinkedIn and we already have been able to curate three different board conversations. So I think step by step, I think we will become more visible. I think we will be more known. We will have more opportunities to introduce founding members, this current cohort and future cohorts. And through that, I think we will make progress. So I'm very optimistic that we can make a difference, that we can get more women on boards. And once the founding members have joined a board, the plan is to launch a group where basically we create a peer group, which will then mentor and support the next cohort. And we also have an amazing group of supporters and partners already. We have Steve Singh from Madrona Ventures. We have Rohini from NGP Capital, and we're always looking for more partners and supporters. I'm not going list everybody right now, but I'm very proud about that we have partners and supporters who bought into the mission and who are helping us accomplish the mission. So I feel very optimistic that we will be able to move the needle. >> Jeff: Yeah. >> It might be at slower pace, but it was still the making a difference. >> Right. Right. Well, the hundredth anniversary of women getting the vote is coming up here in a couple of weeks. Right. And that took a long time to get done, So this stuff it does not happen easily. It does not happen overnight. But I would think certainly too with the increasing number of women in VC roles, as partners, and are also getting on board seats that hopefully that the things are starting to fall in the right direction. And hopefully with each progressive placement is a little bit easier than the one before. So Rita it's great to meet you, everyone I talked to you about you is so excited about the work that you're doing and what you're doing with FirstBoard. >> Thank you. >> I want to give you kind of the last word before we sign off, how should people learn more? How can people support the cause? How should people get involved, so that they can move the needle. >> That's great. Thank you. Get in touch with us on, if you go to the website FirstBoard.io, there is a way to partner with us, there's a link to partner with us, there's a link if you are interested in joining the future cohort. Please contact me and I will respond. And we would love to talk to companies, who are thinking about diversifying their board, we would love to talk to VCs for whom this is important. So please get in touch, and we'll figure out how to change the world together. >> Right And, oh by the way, most studies show you get better business outcomes, right. With diversity of opinion, diversity of points of view. So it's not only the right thing to do, it's also very good business. >> And I think the next decade we are ready for change. I think the society, I think is ready for change. And I think how companies run and are operated, I think people are ready for a change too. So I think the timing is really, really right. And I think we can make it happen. >> Great. Well, Rita, thank you again for taking a few minutes >> Thank you >> and telling your story and joining us on theCUBE. >> Thank you very much. It was pressure of Jeff and I look forward to talk again. >> Yeah. Maybe in person after we get through all this COVID madness. >> Maybe in person, yeah. >> All right. Well, thanks again, Rita. >> Rita: Thank you very much. >> All right She's Rita, I'm Jeff. You're watching theCUBE. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time. (soft music)

>> Announcer: From San Francisco it's theCUBE. Covering Red Hat Summit 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat. >> Welcome back, everyone. We are here live in San Francisco, the Moscone West for the Red Hat Summit and we're covering three days of wall-to-wall coverage. I'm John Furrier with my co-host John Troyer. Our next guest is Jennifer Cloer, creator and executive producer of The Chasing Grace Project, formerly CUBE alumni, was on at the CloudNOW awards at Google. Great to see you. >> Great to see you, thanks for having me. >> So obvioulsy Open Source has been amazing growth, okay, and it has kind of democratized software. >> Right. >> You've got a project in my opinion that I think is democratizing, getting the word out on the tech issues around women in tech and more importantly, it's inspirational, but it's also informational. Take a minute and explain what is the project Chasing Grace? Obviously Grace, Grace Hopper. >> Right. Right, The Chasing Grace Project is a documentary series of six episodes about women in tech. The name does lend itself to Grace. We named it after Grace Hopper because she really exemplifies the grit and the excellence that we're all chasing all the time. It's also this idea that we're chasing the idea of grace in the face of adversity. It's not always easy but the women who we've interviewed and talked to exhibit amazing grace and are super inspiring. So the series doesn't shy away from adversity but it certainly focuses on stories of resilience. >> And when did you start the project and is there episodes? Is it on Netflix? >> Yes. >> Is it on DVD? >> (laughs) Let's hope. We hope so. We started the project, excuse me, about a year and a half ago. I put a call for stories out in a number of women in tech forums I belong to, was inundated with responses. Women are ready to share their stories. Spent every Friday for about four or five months on back-to-back calls with women, produced the trailer last May, a year ago, released it in September, and since then it's been a whirlwind. Lots of interest. Lots of men and women wanting to share their stories, as well as people wanting to underwrite the work, which is fabulous because it relies on sponsors. So yeah, we're about a year and a half in. We just finished episode one and screened it. We've got four or five more to go so we're early. We're early, but it's happening. >> And share some stories because I saw the trailer, it's phenomenal. There's women in tech and the culture of the bro culture, people talk about that all the time. It's male-dominated and you're seeing here with Red Hat Summit, there's women here but it's still dominated by men. >> Right. >> The culture has to evolve and I think a lot of men are smart and see it. Some aren't and some are learning. I would call learning a bigger (laughs) percentage. >> Sure. >> What are you finding that women who are really driving the change has been the big trend line? And how's the men reacting? Because the men have to be involved, too because they also have to take responsibility for the change. >> Absolutely, absolutely. I would say that by women sharing their stories we are starting to change culture. I'm actually keynoting today at the Women's Leadership lunch at Red Hat Summit. I'm going to talk about that, the impact of story on cultural change because there's a lot of reasons cited for the decline of women in tech, because we've gone backwards. There's actually fewer than ever before. But many things are cited. So the pipeline issue, poor education, but the biggest thing cited is the culture and the culture has changed over the course of the last decade in particular. So the women we've talked to, their stories of resilience are starting to change that culture. When people talk and share experiences and stories, there's empathy that comes from both men and women who hear those stories and I think that that starts to change culture. It's starting to happen. I think we are pivoting, it's happening. But there's still a lot of work to do. >> John Troyer: Jennifer, at the keynote, or at the luncheon here, the Women's Leadership luncheon, anything else that you'll be bringing up? That sounds like part of your message here that you're going to be bringing today and you want to share right before you go up? >> Yeah, sure. So like I said, I'll talk about the impact of story on culture. I'll talk about the stories of resilience. I'm going to share a few stories from women who we've actually interviewed and featured in episode one. Because you can't see episode one online because we're in discussions with distributors, I'm going to share those stories with this audience. And I think folks can, like I said, learn from those and gain empathy and walk away hopefully with action. >> That seems great. The storytelling of course is key, right? We're in an interesting place in our culture today and I think social media, the 10 or 20 years of social media that we've had is part of that. I know my feed is filled with incredible women leaders in tech and frankly it's much better for it. But you know, you do sense a sense of almost weariness in some folks because this is one, they get shit on, can I say that? >> Hey, it's digital TV, there's no censorship. >> But also you'd like to eventually, if you're a woman in tech, you'd like to be able to talk about tech, not just being a woman in tech. >> Right, right. >> I guess, is that just at the part, is that just where we are in society right now? >> I think so and you know, it's a marathon, not a sprint, right? It's going to take a long time. It took a long time to get us to this place, it's going to take a long time to move us forward. But yeah, women do want to build tech and not have to advocate for themselves. Hopefully projects like The Chasing Grace Project and other work that's happening out there, there's a lot of initiatives that have sprung up in the last few years, are helping to do that so that the women who are building can build. >> What's your big takeaway from the work you've done so far? It could be something that didn't surprise you that you knew was pretty obvious and what surprised you? What's some of the things that's come out of it that's personal learnings for you? >> I think the power that comes from giving women a platform to be seen and heard for their experiences. Almost every woman I've talked to says I feel so alone. They're in an office with mostly men. There might be another woman but they feel so alone and when they share their stories and they see other women sharing their stories, they know they're not alone. There may be few of them but the stories are very similar. I think that men learn a lot when they see women sharing their stories, too because they don't know. The experiences that we all have are very different. We're walking through the same industry but our day-to-day experiences are quite different. Learning what that's like, both for women, for men, there are men that are going to be featured in this series, and women of other women. Just the power in that. Most women tell me I don't really have a story. Well, you both know that when you dig a little bit, >> They all have stories. >> everybody has a story. Everybody has a story, multiple stories. So, yeah. >> So let me as you a question. This has come up in some of my interviews on women in tech and that is is that it kind of comes up subtlety, it's not really put out there, like you said, aggressively. But they say there's also a women women pressure. So how have you found that come up? Because it's not just women and men. I've heard women say there's pressure, there's other pressures from other women. Do more or do less and it's kind of an individual thing but it's also kind of code, as well to stick together. At the same time, there's a women and women dynamic. >> Yeah. >> What have you found on that? >> Mostly I've found, I think there's a shift happening, mostly I've found that women are forming community and supporting each other. Everyone has a different definition of feminism or womenism (laughs) as some women have called it, but I think there are some women who have told me, usually the older generations who have told me there's only room for one woman at the table. One woman makes it to leadership and she's very protective of that space. But we're seeing that less and less. >> I don't want to turn this into, you hate to turn this into a versus scenario, right? Especially online I see a lot of interaction of men coming up and saying, either trying to explain to women what their problem is or, but also saying educate me, like take your time to educate me because I can't be bothered to figure it out myself. Or also trying to stand up themselves and lead the charge. So one of my personal things I do, I sit back and let the women talk and listen to them about what they want to do. >> Right. >> Any particular advice you have for folks who are listening and who might want to, you know, what do you do? I guess sit down and pay attention. >> Yeah, I'd say listen to the stories. Listen to what women need and want out of their male allies and advocates. And listen to the women who you already are friends and colleagues with. What do they need from you? Start there. And then build your way out. I remember when I first started The Chasing Grace Project, I was actually advised by people, well don't feature men at all because they can't speak for women and that's very true but I've decided that we will feature both men and women because we're all part of the industry, right? When I talk about the future is being built by all of us. We need more women in leadership. We don't need just women in leadership, we need men and women. So I think though, right now at this moment in time men should listen and ask their, like I said, their inside circle of women that are friends and colleagues, what can I do? What do you need in terms of my support? >> And it's inclusion, too. There's a time to have certain, all women and then men, as well. >> Right. >> Kind of the right balance. >> Right. >> Well, I have to ask you obvioulsy, Red Hat is an Open Source world. Community is huge. Obviously tech has a community and some will argue how robust it is (laughs) >> Right. (laughs) >> and fair it is. And communities have their own personality, but the role of the community becomes super critical. Can you just share your thoughts and views of how the role of the community can up its game a bit on inclusion and diversity? And I put inclusion first because inclusion and diversity, that seems to be the trend in my interviews, diversity and inclusion, and now it's inclusion and diversity. But the community has some self-policing mechanisms. There's kind of a self-governance dynamic of communities. So it's an opportunity. >> It is an opportunity. >> So what's your view? >> There are a lot of things that are talked about within the Open Source community in terms of how to advance inclusion in a positive way. One is enforcement. So at events like this, there's a code of conduct. They've become very popular. Everybody has one, for good reason, but everybody's doing them now. I worked at The Linux Foundation for 12 years. When you have an incident at an event, if you don't enforce your code of conduct, it doesn't mean anything. So I think that's one very tangible example of something you can do. We certainly tried at The Linux Foundation, but I remember it was a challenge. If something happened, what was the level of issue and how would we enforce that and address it? So I think the community can do that. I think start there, yeah. >> What's your take on The Linux Foundation, since you brought it up? Lots going on there. >> Right. >> You've got CNCF is exploding in growth. >> Jennifer: Right. >> Part of that, Jim Zemlin is doing a great job. As you look at The Linux Foundation since you have the history, >> Yeah. >> where it's come from and where it's going, what's your view of that? >> My goodness. I was part of The Linux Foundation before it was called The Linux Foundation. It was called Open Source Development Labs, way, way, back. But you know, always impressed with what The Linux Foundation is doing. CNCF in particular is on fire. I watched my social media feeds last week about KubeCon in Copenhagen, a lot of friends there. You know, Open Source is the underpinning of society. If the world we live in is a digital one and we're building that digital existence for tomorrow, the infrastructure is Open Source. So it's just going to become more and more relevant. >> And they're doing a great job. And it's an opportunity with the community again to change things. >> Yeah. >> There's a good mindset in the Open Source community with Linux Foundation. Very growth-oriented, growth mindset. Love the vibe there. They've got good vibes. >> Yeah. >> They're very open and inclusive. >> There's some projects that are really prioritizing. DNI, one of which is Cloud Foundry Foundation. Abby Kearns is doing an amazing job there. The Node.js community I think is pretty progressive. So yeah, it's encouraging. >> Abby was on theCUBE. We were there in Copenhagen. >> Right, right. >> Thanks for coming on. >> My pleasure. >> What's next for you? Your life's a whirlwind. Take a quick minute. >> Yeah, I'm in Chicago next week for a shoot. We're shooting episode two which is focused on women in leadership roles. There's only 11% of executive positions in Silicon Valley are held by women. So it's a provocative topic because a lot of women haven't experienced that so we want more to do that. >> Well, if you need any men for the next show, John and I will happily volunteer. >> Okay, wonderful. >> To be stand-ins and backdrops. >> Fantastic, thank you. >> Thanks for coming on. It's theCUBE coverage here live, Moscone West in San Francisco for Red Hat Summit 2018. We'll be back with more coverage after this short break.

>> Presenter: Live from Copenhagen, Denmark, it's the Cube. Covering Kubecon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing foundation, and it's ecosystem partners. >> Well, welcome back everyone, we're live here with the Cube in Copenhagen, Denmark, for KubeCon 2018 Europe, via the CFCF Cloud Native Computing foundation, part of the Linux foundation. I'm John Furrier, my co-host Lauren Cooney here this week. And up next to Yaron Haviv, the founder, and CTO of Iguazio, and Doug Davis, who is the co-chair of the serverless working group, And the CNCF, as well as a developer advocate for IBM, IBM cloud. Great to see you welcome to the Cube. >> Thank you. >> Thanks. >> Thanks for coming in. So love the serverless work, and want to dig into that with a bunch of questions. So, super important trend as we see in that success functions, and all the good stuff that's going on, programmable infrastructure. So I want to dig into that. But first, Yaron, I want to get into what's going on with the business, what's new with you? Iguazio, I saw you're on the sponsorship list here, you're doing a lot of work. You have some news as well. What's going on at KubeCon, Europe for you. >> Yeah, so we're expanding on the business side very nicely, taking more momentum, and this strength towards edge analytics, edge cloud, people starting to understand that central cloud is not the only way to build clouds. We're also progressing nicely on our serverless framework, called Nuclio. It just was published, maybe eight months ago, already made 2000 stars in GitHub, you know, users. We've got some quotes, NPR's around production version of that, including strong partnership with Acer, on being able to run the same functions in Acer, and the cloud in a joint development effort, as well as customers actually using it to build real-time analytics use case in development in the cloud, and deployment in different locations. >> Our audience knows you well, you've been on the cube many times. You also write for us, as well as other blogs with your opinion pieces and commentary. It's always edgy, and strong, and right on the money, I want to ask you your thoughts on serverless, because you were there from day one, I remember the conversation. It wasn't called serverless, we were talking about resource pools and looking at cloud computing, pontificating about, potentially, what Kubernetes and orchestration was going to look like. It's happening. So, are you happy with the progress of the industry, performance of the tech stack? What's your thoughts on serverless today, state of the union? What's your opinion? >> I think it's progressing nicely. I think many people call everything almost, serverless now. You have serverless data bases, you have serverless everything. I think serverless will become, more and more, a feature of a platform, not necessarily a thing. But, like Salesforce will have serverless functions, Wix will have serverless functions, for their own stuff. Obviously cloud platforms, analytic platforms, et cetera. So there'll be, maybe a family of generic ones, and a family of platform specific, that are more use case oriented. >> Does that connect with your business plan for Iguazio? Are you evolving with it? How are you navigating those waters on the adoption side. >> So, you know, I'm sort of trying to be inclusive, I think there's room for more than one serverless framework. There's also OpenWhisk, and Openfazzer, and a few of those. Our focus is mainly real-time analytics, and high performance in data processing. Yes, we can also do other things, but maybe we won't invest too much in some features that are more front-end oriented, or stuff like that. >> John: So you're staying focused on the core. >> Yes, on the other hand, other people to deal with front-end, we'll focus on HTTP, and Blue Logic, and things like that. Most of the frameworks don't have the same capabilities of Nuclio, like real-time stream distribution, real-time, low latencies, all that stuff. So, I think there's room for multiple frameworks, and that's also part of the relationship with Acer. Acer have their own product, which is very good with integration with the Acer stack, and the Acer components. On the other hand there is real-time analytics, in IOT Nuclio is stronger, So, there interest is, rather than saying, no we'll choose just one horse, why won't we enable the market, and allow the people the choice in solution. >> That's great. On IBM's side, Doug I want to get your thoughts on the working group, as well as IBM. You guys have done a lot of open source, IBM well known in the Linux history books, as we know. And now very active again, continuing that mission, congratulations, and thanks for doing that. But the serverless working group. This is a broader scope now, can you just give us some color on the commentary around how that's evolving, because you guys have a lot of blue chip customers. Cloud Foundry just did a survey, I was talking to Abby Kearns yesterday, about the results came back, mainstream tech, not middle of the country, but they heard about Kubenettis like, what's kubenettis? So you have people going, Okay, I've got a job to do, but now kubenettis has arrived, this is a key part of a micro-services focus. >> Right. Yeah, and so the way the serverless group got started was, about a year ago the CNCF TOC, technical oversight committee, decided serverless is kind of a new technology, we want to figure out what's going on in that space, and so they started up a working group. And our job wasn't to really decide what to do about it yet, it was to sort of give us the landscape of what's going on out there, what are people doing? What does serverless even mean, relative to function of the service, or even the other as's, and stuff like that What does a serverless framework generally look like? What do people use it for? Use cases, and stuff like that. And then at the end of that we produced a white paper with our results, as well as a landscape spreadsheet, to say all of the various technologies out there in that space, who's doing what. Without trying to pick winners, just saying what's there. And then we ended with a set of recommendations in terms of what possible next steps the CNCF could do in this space, with an eye towards interoperability building more than anything else, because that's what, really, we care about. We don't want vendor lock in and all the other good stuff. And so we had a set of recommendations, and one of the main ones was, two main things, one was function signatures was a very popular one, but we decided to focus on eventing first, because we thought that might be an easier fruit to pick off the tree first. And so we were going to focus on the formats, or meta data of an event, as it transfers between systems. And so from the service working group we create a cloud events, sort of little sub-group within our working group, to focus on creating a specification around what the meta-data around an event would look like, just so we can get some commonality. That way, at least the infrastructure between the two systems can transfer the events back and forth, much in the same way HTTP layer, doesn't have to understand the body of the message, but can look at common headers, and know how to route it properly. Same kind of thing with eventing. And again, this is all about trying to get interoperability, and portability for applications, and users more than anybody else. And so that's kind of where our focus has been on. How can we help the end user not get locked into one platform, not get locked into one solution, and make their life easier overall. >> Great. Where are you now with that? Is it running? Is it-- >> Overall done. No. >> Oh you're complete, yeah (laughs) >> Doug: But we did that last week. No, actually as of last week though, we just released our first version, 0.1. It's a very, very basic thing, and people might look at it and say, what's the big deal? But even with that simple little thing we've been able to get some level of interoperability between the various platforms. And if people actually join, when is it? Friday 11 o'clock? >> Yaron: Yeah. >> We have a session where someone's going to demonstrate interoperability between, oh gosh, IBM, you guys, Microsoft. >> Google. >> Dameware, Google. All the various companies involved in this thing. >> Love it, that's great. >> Huawei. >> Yeah. They're all going to be either sending or receiving events, using the cloud event format, to prove interoperability around the specification. So we're just at 0.1, we have some way to go, but that first step was huge just to get agreement, and everybody to the table to agree. So it's been really fun >> And it wasn't easy, it wasn't easy. And he's the peacemaker in the group. (laughs) I'm the troublemaker, he's the peacemaker. >> We have a lot of vocal people in the group, yes. (laughs) >> We're not pointing at anyone. >> No, never. >> Important first step obviously, commonality, and having some sort of standardization kind of thinking. >> Doug: Yes. >> Yaron: Don't use the standard word. There are people allergic to that. >> Well yeah, the standard bodies and what not, but in terms of the community work going on, this is super important. What's the impact of that? Obviously it's a small step, but a big step, right? So, what's it going to impact? What's next, what's coming next now that you've got the meta-data, and you've got the interoperability, what's next? >> Well, obviously we need to finish it up, because 0.1 is obviously just the first step. As I said, I think beyond that people are really itching to do function signatures. Because I think if you can get the event format coming in to be somewhat similar, and then you can get portability of moving your function from one platform to another, with hopefully minimal changes from a function signature point of view, you're a long way there towards getting portability for people. And I think that's probably the next step we're going to be looking at. >> What's the technical case from a commercial entity like yourself, who's in business to make money, obviously you have a business to run. As you build out your architecture, where is this going to be applied for you? What's the impact of this project to your product? >> So beyond my strong religion around open APIs, and you've seen the blogs I've written about it, our interest is twofold. First, we're not the market leader, Amazon is the market leader, et cetera. So if we have a better technology, and things are standard, it's easier for customers to move. Second, is we believe in interoperability, closer to the data, closer to where the processing, especially when 5G is going to evolve, and we're going to see bottlenecks between metro locations. Our sales is, go develop in the cloud, and then push it, you know the diesel twin model. This is exactly what we're demonstrating with Acer. You could develop at Acer, our Nuclio functions and deploy in a factory. So it may not be the same platform, it may not be the same serverless framework. So having the ability to run the same code in different frameworks or different platforms is very important. >> And IBM, you're doing a lot of work. OpenWhisk has been something that's gotten a lot of press and notoriety. What's up with you guys and open source? Obviously we see you guys out there doing a lot of studies and a lot content, a lot of coding. What's new over on the IBM side of the house with serverless? >> From my point of view, I think probably the biggest thing is, we're leading the charge in putting OpenWhisk to run on top of Kubernetes. And I think what's interesting about that is we're going to see, probably, some changes to Kubernetes need to be made to get the better performance that we need. Because when OpenWhisk runs vanilla on top of, say run C, or the docker stuff, we have a lot more freedom there. Pausing containers, stuff like that. Stuff you can't do in Kubernetes. We're probably going to see some more pressure on Kubernetes to add some more features, to get the kind of performance numbers we need going forward. >> And scale too, is important to understand. I was just talking about the keynotes earlier with another guest, and Cern is up there. They have a thousand nodes, it's not massive numbers yet, at scale, I mean Amazon are the big clouds, you guys have clouds. You've got a lot of nodes, so it's a lot more scale going on in the cloud as Kubernetes starts to get it's footing. >> Doug: Yep. >> How do you explain Kubernetes, how do both of you guys explain Kubernetes to the IT transformation group out there, that's going cloud operations. >> So what we've seen, because we're also selling an appliance, a full integrated solution, people, in the enterprise, they don't necessarily want to understand low level of Kubernetes. And actually serverless is a nice way for doing that. If you look at the new Nuclio dashboard, you just go, you write some code, you click deploy, it auto scales, you don't need to think about the underlying cube cut whole, the underlying networking. It's all done there for you. And I think, what you see in the trend in the industry, some people call it serverless, some people call it other things, is more and more abstractions, where users will deploy code, will deploy containers, and some frameworks underneath will deal with the high availability, elasticity, all that. I think that's what enterprise customers are looking for. Not everyone is eBay, and Google, and Netflix. >> John: Your thoughts? >> What I think is interesting, I agree with what you said, but I think it's interesting is you actually have a wider range of people, right. You have some people who think Kubernetes, as you said, nice abstraction layer, you don't have to get into the nitty gritty if you don't need to. But Kubernetes does allow you to get under the covers and twiddle those lower level bits if you actually need to. I think that's one of the things that. People who start out with Docker, they like it, it's so simple to use, and it's wonderful, and they love it. But they found it a little bit limiting, because it was too opinionated, or it didn't give you access to things under the covers. Kubernetes, I think, is trying to find that right balance between the two, and I think for the most part they kind of hit it. There's a little bit more of a learning, because it's not quite as user friendly as Docker is. But once you get over that learning hump, all the flexibility it gives you, people seem to really, really, like that. >> What are some of the things that people do under the covers, you mentioned some tweaks here and there. Is it policy based stuff? What's happening under the covers that Kubernetes getting that their groove swing on now. >> There is something called custom resource definition. So for example, when we deploy a Nulio, maybe OpenWhisk or others have it as well. It's essentially, Nuclio becomes another resource that you can actually view when you're running the Kubernetes CLI, or all the other things that manage it's liveliness, et cetera. So those are services that you get for free as a platform. But if you want your function to keep being alive you need to code your functions into the liveliness API, the thing that monitors it staying alive. So you're getting a generic service, but you need to work with it. >> Yeah, actually I'd go one step further with that and abstract it a little. Because obviously Kubernetes has a lot of knobs you can turn, a lot more than other platforms, like Docker has. But I think, for me the biggest benefit of Kubernetes is the plugability. Custom resource definitions, one of them. Ripping out schedulers, or whatever controllers you want, and replace it with your own. That kind of flexibility to say, I don't have to leave the entire Kubernetes world just to run my own scheduler, or write the infrastructure around it, I can plug in my own. That's the kind of flexibility people seem to really, really like. That way they don't feel locked in, they can still play with part of the ecosystem, but get the flexibility and customization they need. >> Awesome, great commentary there. I want to get your thoughts on KubeCon 2018 Europe, for CNCF. Continuing to see growth in CNCF, fantastic to see. As the boat gets full of people, you've got to be the peacemaker if you're co-chair. As people want to start getting their claws into the projects, this imbalance on the community side, are you guys happy with the direction, obviously the success, and the visibility is increased. What's your take on the show here? What are you guys doing? What's going on around the event for you guys. >> So it only started today, but my impression, comparing it with the previous show in the U.S. There are a lot more decision makers here. I don't know if it's the European culture of not funding every student to every show, or just the maturity of the ecosystem. But that's something I've noticed, the discussions I had with decision makers. and they're also not everyone, like in the U.S.A. everyone wants to build it their own way. People here think about operationalizing solutions, so sometimes you need to take something that someone else already built and test. >> And what's the conversations like, that you're having? Is it architecture? Is it deploying production workloads? >> So for us it's a lot about use cases, because we're doing things in a very different way. We're doing some nice demos on how, we're running real-time analytics with the sample database as the core, and we're showing how it's equivalent to another solution that they may build. And that immediately clicks. The other aspect is really, there is so much technology, but we need someone to wrap it up for us as a package solution. >> Doug, your thoughts. First of all I love your shirt, it says code with all the words in the community. >> Doug: Yeah, it's one of my favorite shirts. I like it. >> Love that shirt. I'm just looking at it like, all these questions are popping in my head. What's your plan at the show here? What's your goal, what are you guys doing, what conversations are you hearing in the hallways? >> Well, obviously being from IBM, we just promote IBM as much as we can. But beyond that, really talk about interoperability around what we're doing here, and make sure people understand that we're not here to necessarily sell our products, which we obviously want to do. We want to make sure that we do it in a way that gives people choice. And that's why we have the serverless working group, the cloud events spec. It's all about giving everybody the choice to move from one platform to another, to get their job done. As much as we want people to buy our stuff, if the customer isn't happy in getting what they need, then we're all going to lose. >> And these projects are super important to get the solidarity around these, quote, standards. >> And just to follow on your previous question about the conference, and stuff that we'd like. Obviously it's great that it's growing so much, but what I really like about this conference, beyond some other ones that I've seen is, a lot of the other ones tend to have more marketing flair to them. And obviously there's a little bit of that here, people are promoting their stuff, but I love the fact that most of the stuff that I'm doing here aren't in the sessions. Because the sessions are great and interesting, but it's the hallway chatter, and interacting with people face to face, and not just to meet them, to actually have real technical, deep discussion with them, here at the conference, because everybody's here you can do that much better face to face than you can over a Zoom call, or something else. The productivity from that level is just astronomical, I love it. >> Yeah, I totally agree. And one thing I would add, just my observation, interviews in the hallways, is that we're living, and we talk about this on the Cube all the time, a modern software architectures here. And it's got some visibility around it, it's not filled in yet, but I think there's clear visibility. Cloud, micro-service, interoperability, portability, pretty clear. And I think people are engaged, people are excited. So you have the progressive new guard coming in, on board. Great job. Thanks for coming on the cube, we appreciate that. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Iguazio and IBM, here on the Cube, breaking down KubeCon 2018 Europe. More live coverage, stay with us, we'll be right back after this short break. (electronic music)

>> (narrator) Live from Copenhagen Denmark, it's theCUBE covering Kubecon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and it's ecosystem partners. >> Hello and welcome to theCUBE. Exclusive coverage of Kubecon 2018 here in Europe. The Linux Foundation, theCUBE's coverage. Again, we're covering Kubecon, Cloud Native Conference, part of the CNCF. I'm John Furrier, host this week here in Europe with Lauren Cooney. Lauren, great to see you. >> Thank you. It's great to be here. >> Cloud, CloudNative is hot, obviously the Cloud Native Compute Foundation, CNCF, part of the Linux Foundation, driving really a pretty incredible growth. >> This is tremendous. >> Onboard and the logos, it's just pretty massive growth in microservices. >> It's just, you're seeing so many interesting things that are actually coming to this show. You know, A there's over 4,000 people here I heard. You know the taxi line was 20 people deep this morning to actually get here for the keynote. And I got to say that, you know, some of the technologies that are coming out are just really tremendous. I mean, we've got some great folks that are going to be coming on the show. Lew Tucker from Cisco and then we've got Tyler Jewell whose going to be talking about a new Cloud Native programming language. I think that's pretty interesting. >> And we've got some great influences as well. We're going to get the commentary. But the big story is, we're in Copenhagen Denmark. Sun's shining. It was raining yesterday but again, great European city. Feels like Amsterdam, got the canals. But the growth in Europe is just, it feels like I'm in North America in just terms of the volume. It's not like a satellite show. Normally in Europe, you see kind of the U.S., North America big tent events and then Europe's kind o' like a sidecar, no pun intended event. But no, it's pretty massive. I mean, you're seeing great developer uptake here in Europe. Cloud is hot. Kubernetes is the talk of the show, >> You know, I, >> SDO among other things. >> Exactly, you know, I think, I've been talking to folks around the conference center and so many of them as actually learning this for the first time and bringing it back to their, you know, large banks or some of their employers, you know, huge European companies that are actually looking to adopt this. And I think it's just phenomenal. >> I was chatting with Abby Kearns last night. I told her I'd give her a quick plug here on theCUBE. She's CEO of Cloud Foundry and we were having a chat. She just did a survey as part of the Cloud Foundry Group that found that outside of our bubble in Silicon Valley and certainly in the influencer sphere, most people have heard of Kubernetes, but actually don't know what it is and kind o' where it's going to be applied. It's one of those things where it's really taken the world by storm, certainly in the classic enterprises but application developers are seeing the goodness of what Kubernetes will do when you look at multiple workloads, workload portability, microservices as the growth of applications become cloudified. >> I think it's >> Kubernetes is key. >> It's key and I think the projects that really are inside of the CNCF are obviously super key as well, like Spyfy, who actually detects kind of workloads and types and you know, does that in an automated way. So, you know, the user doesn't have to figure that out anymore. I think those technologies are really the ones that are going to be you know, changing the landscape of platforms, you know, now and to come. >> Yeah. So Dan Kohn's up on stage, Lew Tucker's up on stage talking about multiclouds from Cisco's perspective. Lauren, you're out there on the streets working with some startups and big companies as they start to transform cloud, what do you see as the key themes of the show, what are the notable highlights for you that you see on the agenda and what are some of the things you're looking for this week in Europe? >> Well, I'm definitely looking to find out really what the news here is. You know, we've got some new projects. We've got some new end users. We've got some awards that are handed out. I really want to get to the root of what's new and what's happening. I think that there are some interesting things that are happening around. You know, we know that growth is explosive in this community. I think that, you know, is very clear. What I don't know is, you know, kind of clear to me yet at least, is really how large CNCF has gotten and how it really going to kind o' fit together and how users are going to take advantage of that entire ecosystem because they're just so many partners now and users. How do you actually pull that together in a way that's going to be workable from, you know, the perspective of a platform? >> To me the big story I like here and certainly what's notable is, and worth talking about is the role Google's playing. If you look at this show, you got some Microsoft here with Azure but really Google's at the centerpiece of this. See Red Hat and all the other industry players are here as well. But Google is driving a lot of open source standards. This is the real kind o', I won't say anti-AWS show but it's kind o' like you got Amazon re:Invent and then you got everybody else. And this is, this show represents to me everybody else because there's a real emphasis on multicloud and workload portability again, not getting a lot into one cloud. Google's pretty upfront about that and they're betting on open source to be that lever to get a good position in the cloud game. >> Well it has to be and I think really what's interesting to is AWS did show up here and they had a, you know, I was actually bouncing between some of the trainings that were going on with Fido, one of the projects and also, you know, what was going on with AWS. They call it their awesome day. And there were a lot of folks attending and a lot of folks interested. So I think it's going to be an interesting game here John. >> Well we have Adrian Cockcroft coming on, obviously, he's with AWS. He's leading the open source efforts for Amazon. And again, not to poke at Amazon but, you know, Amazon is so busy and they announce so much at re:Invent, they're so ahead of the game on cloud, cloud scale, just a number of services that Amazon... (techno music) the cloud has had significant impacts. We covered Amazon's earnings last week, again, at 50% increase. The profit that AWS is throwing off is so notable and so impressive that it really is a bellwhether to me on terms of this cloud transformation. And the key is applications. That is the number one focus we're seeing and how that makes the cloud scale an impact. What are you looking for with applications? What's interesting you, what's interested you there with the applications? >> Any applications that are running from public to, and private across that environment but I want to see multi-public cloud environments as well as on, you know, our private environments too. That to me is interesting. >> Well I want to get your thoughts on another topic that we're going to talk about this week and that is the role of the personnel inside the organization for cloud transformations. So for instance, the role of the admin operators out there, or admins and operators. Certainly at Cisco, DevNet Create that we were recently at, the role of the network manager is moving much more cloud oriented program or infrastructure. But you're seeing Google starting to talk about things like automation is good but yet the role of an operator, they call it at NASA a Site and Reliability Engineer, as the key position for cloud, what's your thought on the personnel equation for cloud within an enterprise within large companies. >> Well the SRE is the new hot role to have, right? I think that there is an increase interest in that audience because they are actually the ones that are troubleshooting a lot of this and looking at a lot of what this strategy is and where to take these things. I think that you know, it's also interesting because as people are looking to aspire to different roles, this is one of the ones that has become more established and is kind of shined upon in the developer world right now. And it's going to be interesting to see if that stays that way or if, you know, they're going to be, you know, what's kind of going to happen there. >> Thoughts on microservices in context, SDO service meshes. Again, last Kubecon we talked about SDO, the service mesh piece of it, with the notion of a modern architecture. How is that playing out in your mind? >> I think it's playing out pretty well. Everyone seems to be on the ciscobus. I also think that, you know, when we talk to Lew Tucker for example, I think we really need to ask him where he sees it going and what's going on with Cisco and the ecosystem at large on that. But everyone is playing and playing nice with those guys. >> I'm interested to get the security update. We're going to have some Google folks on. I want to find out what's new with that and also Google Next is coming up in July, their big cloud show. I'm expecting it be that pretty large event. Google is really going all in on cloud. Certainly, the cloud group within Google's got a lot of investment, a lot of enterprise folks. But the security question in Kubernetes is an interesting one. How to deploy, you know, endpoint security or is it an IOT thing? Is it ship set to operating system to application? I mean this is the open question on Kubernetes is security. >> I don't have a good answer for you there. I think that, you know, that is something we definitely need to dig into as a community and as developers. It's something that, you know, I think is was mentioned in the keynote today and I think we got to continue to to poke at that one. >> Awesome. Well we're here kicking off day one of two days of coverage here at CNCFs Kubecon, John Furrier with Lauren Cooney. Back with more live coverage here in Europe in Denmark. We're in Copenhagen for cube coverage at Kubecon 2018 Europe. (techno music)

>> Narrator: Live from Santa Clara, in the heart of Silicon Valley it's The Cube, covering Cloud Foundry Summit 2017. Brought to you by the Cloud Foundry Foundation and Pivotal. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman and welcome to Silicon Angle Media's production of The Cube, worldwide leader in live tech coverage, here at the Cloud Foundry Summit. We're in Santa Clara, California. Happy to have my cohost for a day of coverage, John Troyer. John, great to see ya. >> Glad to be here, Stu. >> So, we were reflecting back. The Cloud Foundry Summit has been going on for a few years. Last time I went to it in person, was I believe three years ago in San Francisco. It was actually the same year as the first DockerCon but reflecting back even further, Cloud Foundry was founded in 2009 at a little company called VMware, which you and I have some familiarity with. Back in 2009, I happened to be working for EMC which was the major majority-owner of VMware and where were you, John? Where were you in 2009? >> I was at VMware, doing that thing, preaching about virtualization. And Paul Baritz was there, there was a growing trend there in the company to be pulling out developer tools and I think this was one of the really bright ideas that came out of that time at VMware. >> Yeah, Derek Collison, who's a Cubalon we've had on many times there, was really the creator there. Back when we were talking about, when we talked about Cloud it was like oh, yeah it's about infrastructure today but in the future it's going to be as platform as a service. Fast forward, I mean boy the ebbs and the flows of Cloud Foundry got spun out into what became Pivotal. Cloud Foundry itself created a whole foundation. Paas, is kind of in the past now. We've said Paas is passe. Abby Kearns, who we're going to have on the program, with the Cloud Foundry foundation, said that it's not about Paas anymore. Seems to be, I hear multicloud, I hear, you know we're really about enabling developers in agility. What's your take on some of this journey that we've seen, John? >> Well, I think at this point in the journey, people are agreeing on the messaging and the needs and the things they want to be talking about. In fact, a lot of the messaging of Cloud Foundry, take my code, run it anywhere, I don't care how. The Cloud Foundry haiku is very similar to what you might hear from Cervalis, right? It's the same idea. Different level of abstraction, different kinds of apps, but the idea that developer productivity is enhanced by not worrying about the things underneath them, is a clear recognition across the industry today. >> Yeah. Absolutely, and it really goes back, a term that used to be thrown around a bunch of years ago is application modernization. And what does that mean? Number one is companies are becoming software companies so when you hear companies like GE, we're going to have Liberty Mutual on today and Liberty Mutual says we want to be a software company that happens to deliver insurance. So we've seen, car companies are going to become software companies that happen to have vehicles in some kind of manner. So it's this transformation, the software's eating the world meme, and right, that differentiation, I want my company to be able to focus on my applications and where that lives and what's underneath it doesn't matter enough. So right, whether it's Cervalis, Kubernetes, Cloud Foundry, OpenShift are all options to allow me to allow my people that write code to work on that stuff and make sure we get the operators and the infrastructure people involved. >> Right. And I want to consider Cloud Foundry and Cloud Foundry Summit in and of itself. I think it is interesting and people will compare it to things like DockerCon and we were both at DockerCon. I'm struck again by some of similar messaging about developer experience and agile. I think here though, the message is much more enterprise-ready, the scalability, the management, the business digital transformation was much more the conversation that's going on this week. The Docker experience, the container experience, is a lot more bottom-up, developer-up, one developer engaging in a different deployment and development pipeline. This is more about what does your business need to do to move faster. >> Absolutely. And this is a foundation show so what is the state of the ecosystem. Pivotal is the big player here. Pivotal's also our sponsor that allowed us to bring the program there. Really appreciate Pivotal's support to bring us here but three years ago, when I went to the show, it was IBM and HP, which is now HPE, very heavily involved, Cisco had a decent presence. Now, who's some of the headline companies here? Well big announcement with Microsoft. Google Cloud is on stage. How does that changing of who's involved, who's contributing, how many of users are actually part of the foundation and doing things are changing and as you brought up, very enterprise focused. One of the dynamics I've seen is Pivotal's done a really good job of getting to the C level decision makers and help them say, you want to do that whole digital transformation and become a software company? We can help. We have the labs group that will help you along that journey and then they pull the developers in and say hey okay, here's the tooling you've got. Let's go write this stuff and then they get on board and then they drive that change. >> You can't look at this stuff in isolation just for the foundation or the project or just Pivotal. The other companies have their own journeys. Some of the big ones, like HPE and Cisco have recently shifted a lot of their focus and their emphasis on open-source and pulled back from other things like OpenStack and so, I don't think you can put that solely on the success or failure of Cloud Foundry. I think you're also seeing another dynamic which is the cloud platforms, Google and Microsoft Azure, they want to be the best cloud platform for everything. They don't want to silo anything. They are welcoming. And so that's an example of them coming in and welcoming Cloud Foundry as one of the services that run great on their platform. >> Yeah. Yesterday, SAP and their Keynote put up this slide with all of these boxes and kind of made a joke, okay I'm going to walk you through how we built our stack and it actually, the entire audience cracked up. Chip Childers, this morning, said I've redone my Keynote, I'm just going to walk you through the stack and everybody laughed but it comes to a point that, what we discussed at OpenStack John, this is not a simple shrink-wrapped software. There are pieces of the proponent. How it all goes together. Kooboo is something we're going to dig into, which is, we take Bosch is the multicloud solution for Cloud Foundry and then it says, okay I've got my Cloud Foundry and I've got my Kubernetes and I can have them live side by side. Different from okay, we're going to take OpenStack and put Cloud Foundry and Kubernetes on top of it. Can I put Kubernetes on top of it? I was talking to some people from Google leading up to the show and they said well, yes you can put it on top, you can put it on the side, how deeply do you integrate it. It is still very early days for Kubernetes even though we've seen this real ground-swell especially in the developers' world. You mentioned we were at DockerCon. We're also going to have The Cube at CubeCon later this year so lots of shows. The maturity level, the adoption, who makes money, so many different angles to get in. I'm excited we're going to have some users on. What are you looking to take out of today's event, John? Some of our speakers or beyond. >> Well, we're here talking to people. So I'm looking at energy and I'm looking at people who, their vision of the future, what they actually have accomplished, the businesses and the business outcomes that they've achieved, I'm really looking forward to the customers. And also the ecosystem, right? Cloud Foundry Foundation is part of the Linux Foundation. How are the different open-source components working together because we are discovering in 2017 and beyond that all these open-source stacks do need to inter-operate and do need to talk with each other. And so that's something I'm very interested in as well. >> Yeah, absolutely. Our first guest, Chip Childers, is going to be able to go into a lot of them. As I mentioned, we've got a couple of guests from Pivotal. We've got a couple of Vend users. We've got people from the Foundation. Got a guest analyst, Stephen O'Grady's going to come on from RedMonk. So got a full day of coverage, in addition to some of the things you mentioned, right, that kind of multicloud, how do we differentiate, you know? Why Microsoft wants to be very open. Amazon seemed to actually get like denigrated a little bit by some of the comments of some of the speakers. Not by the Foundation or anything like that but Liberty Mutual, one of the guests we have on, they run on Amazon. Pivotal started Cloud Foundry on Amazon and Amazon of course is the juggernaut in the cloud world. We've actually got, one of our teams are out at the Amazon Public Sector show, digging into that ecosystem. So Amazon is always the elephant in the room if you will when we're talking about cloud. So how do all these pieces fit together? So I'm excited to dig in. Really glad we could bring The Cube to this event. Very much a t-shirt crowd that we've got the show for behind us. Everybody getting excited about some of those things. >> I think we're the only ones with jackets here. Maybe one or two. >> There are. There's the press and the analysts are here but absolutely. If we did this two days, we'd pick our favorite t-shirt and throw it on under the blazer. That's kind of the Valley way, as you know. Alright. So John, really appreciate you joining me. Please stay with us for the full day of coverage. As always check out siliconangle.tv for this and all the events. We're going to be back and we will be right back with our first guest here at the Cloud Foundry Summit. Thanks for watching The Cube.

>> Announcer: Live from San Francisco, it's theCUBE, covering DevNet Create 2017, brought to you by Cisco. >> Welcome back everyone, we're here live in San Francisco for theCUBE's special exclusive coverage of Cisco's inaugural event, DevNet Create, a foray into the developer opensource world as they extend their classic DevNet core developer program, three years old now, going into the opensource world, this is theCUBE, I'm John Furrier with my cohost, Peter Burris, our next guest is Matt Howard, EVP and CMO of Sonatype, knows something about opensource, Matt, great to have you on theCUBE, thanks for joining us. >> Thanks for having me. >> So first, talk about Sonatype, what do you guys do? Give a quick minute to describe the company, then I got some pointed questions for you. >> Well, we provide tools and intelligence to modern development organizations to basically reinvent how opensource components are flowing through the pipeline, through the value chain, through the development lifecycle. >> You guys are a service, SaaS service, are you guys a subscription? >> It's a subscription service, and we provide two products, there's a product which is a repository manager called Nexus where you store, organize, and distribute software binaries into the development lifecycle, and then there's a second server product called Nexus IQ, which provides intelligence on top of those binary, so think of it as like FDA food labeling database, so if you're looking at a bag of potato chips as a consumer, you can see that there's calories, sugar, salt, it's gluten-free. If you're looking at a software binary, you're able to see metadata that we provide, which allows you as a developer to make intelligent decisions with respect to, this component's good for my application 'cause it's properly licensed, or this component's good for my application because it doesn't have any-- >> So you're a verifying code, basically, in a way. >> Yeah, absolutely. Verifying and qualifying the opensource-- >> John: And the problem you solve for the customer as well. >> The customer basically gets to build applications at scale, at speed, with quality opensource components. >> So you take the worries off, like, with the licensing, does it work well, you're like Yelp for software? There're comments? >> Sort of, more like Amazon reviews for opensource binaries. >> Okay, great, cool, thanks for taking the time. So we was just talking in our intro, opensource, I'm old enough to know when we used to pirate software, and then opensource, woo, this is great, and then it became a tier two in the enterprise player, Red Hat brought it to tier one. It's booming. Communities are changing. You're in the middle of it, what's happening? Give us your take on how opensource is evolving, because it's the classic case of cliche, opensource, I'm standing on the shoulders of giants before me, and now the next generation is standing on the current generations of shoulders, a new generation's happening, what's going on? >> So, just think of supply and demand, simple supply. We live in a world right now where development organizations are facing an infinite supply of opensource, there's a thousand new opensource projects a day, 10,000 new versions and 14 releases per year. The supply is massive. And in a world where supply is incredible, consumption is equally incredible, last year alone, there were 52 billion download requests from Maven Central for Java binaries, 50 billion-plus requests for NPM packages in the JavaScript ecosystem, so we are basically dealing with a world where software is no longer a marginal cost to doing business, it is the business. Developers are king, developers are the lifeblood that's flowing through every great enterprise today, because innovation is ultimately the thing that will allow companies to compete and win on a global playing field! >> I mean, it's almost intoxicating for these guys who are just drinking from the trough of free software, because if you compound the new projects with the fact that Google and these guys are donating awesome libraries, Amazons, machine-learning stuff, it's not something to shake a stick at, it's great software! >> Yeah! >> TensorFlow, Spanner, I mean, all this stuff-- >> It's great software, and just think, in a world of infinite choice, which is the world we're living in, how do you make the best choice? >> So where's the growth coming from? Peter and I were speculating that, in talking to Abby Kearns yesterday from Cloud Foundry, and then with the Cloud Native Foundation, a lot of money's coming in so the business model for players and vendors are coming in, and suppliers now helping out and donating software, but we're speculating that there's a whole growth area that's different than we've seen before. Are we on that? Your comment to that, your thoughts on where this evolution's coming from, the next wave, is it horizontal? >> Our view is that the devops transformation from waterfall-native development to devops-native software development is happening and it's real, and it's arguably in the early days, but it's no stopping that train now. As organizations continue to reconcile demand from board members and shareholders and CEOs, how do you remain relevant, how do you be, put yourself into a position where you're innovating with software fast enough to remain competitive? And that's a tremendous pressure, and it's driving transformational change like devops, and so as that demand for speed continues to grow, we think it only increases the appetite for opensource, and it creates opportunities for organizations like ours to basically automate how that opensource innovation happens. >> We do a lot of crowd chats, to surface the landscape and the common theme that comes up is, oh, your organizational mindset has to change, and were commenting, Peter and I were talking yesterday about, if your org's not set up, you'll have, what's the law? >> Conway's law. >> Conway's law, where the output matches the organization, but the bigger question is, Ford CEO got fired, he's been in the job for less than four years, he didn't have time to transform, so the question is, how does opensource help people transform faster, do you have any observations around that? Because that's the number one question we get is, okay, I need to configure resources to do that, and then the other theme that we're hearing, I'd love to get your reaction on is, "Oh my God, I'm going to lose my job through automation." And certainly Cisco has networking guys who are looking down the barrel of potentially being irrelevant if they don't make the network programmable, so this is, we've lived through cycles, is it the mainframe guys who kind of lose their jobs, kind of thing going on? Or is it a transformative opportunity for the people as well? >> Yeah, it's a great question, there's a lot there, but I think the notion that they say software eats the world, a different way of viewing is automation eats the world, and if you look at, we refer to the 100-10-1 rule, today, in every large IT organization, you got 100 developers for every 10 IT operations professionals for every one security professional. It's impossible for the application security professionals to maintain governance over 100 software developers. If the old way of doing something like application security in this world where we're talking about infinite supply of opensource, needs to be automated with machine intelligence, it needs to be scalable early, everywhere, and throughout the entire development lifecycle, and unless it's not, you're going to basically get some of the benefit of opensource, but not all of the benefit of opensource. >> I want to push you a little bit in this, Matt, because, one might argue, and I'm going to be a little bit apocryphal here for a second, but one might argue that we also have an infinite supply of different types of bubblegum. And at the end of the day, one can say, "Well, do we need another bubblegum?" And we may or may not, and yet we do. So the reason why I'm bringing that up is I want to square the infinite supply, which I don't disagree with, with the idea that, certainly our clients, especially the big data side, are still concerned about the fact that they can't find tooling, or combinations of opensource tooling, that can help them with their use case. And so as you think about, one of the things that intrigued me about what your company does is the idea of to what degree can you start with a business problem, use that business problem to do some design work, and then based on that, start finding the tooling that will be most appropriate for solving the problem. >> Yeah, it's a great question, and I think it goes back to this idea of automation, let's just give a real world use case, this is one of many, but if the demand for speed and innovation is what shareholders, boards, and CEOs are looking for out of their IT organizations and their development teams, then the first thing you do, in the theory of constraints is you look for where is the friction, right? So theory of constraints basically points to something like the process inside of a large financial organization that involves a developer requesting approval for using an opensource component. How long does that take? How many people are involved in that process? How many hours, how many dollars? Does it have to be that hard? Or can you basically create policy, and define policy, and build, effectively, a firewall that then automatically governs the flow of opensource, healthy opensource components, into the development lifecycle? With no human intervention at pace, right? And that's the idea of what we're doing when we talk about scaling opensource innovation early, everywhere, and across the entire development lifecycle, it starts at the perimeter, the moment the development requests the opensource component for use, it has to be automated, you can't afford to take three months to approve it, he needs it now! >> So let me turn that around, and see if this is a service that you are providing, or actually could provide. Given that you probably visibility into a lot of the problems that the developer's trying to solve, and therefore, their ability to check opensource in and out from a variety of different sources, are you also gaining visibility in the types of stuff that people can't find, and making that information available to the world about, here's some of the places where the opensource world could step up and do perhaps a better job of delivering that software? And I'm specifically thinking of the big data universe, because there's so many, for example, I got a client, big financial institution, who is tearing his hair out right now trying to come up with some standard components for complex machine-learning pipelines. Real, real hard job, a lot of different tools, they work together at some level, but they're not solving the problem, 'cause they're more focused on solving each other project's problem. Am I making this? >> You are making a lot of sense, and you should introduce us to your friend, because we would love to have a conversation and talk exactly how it is that you can create prescriptive architectures with opensource components to remove friction back to the theory of constraints concept, I mean, this process of innovation has to flatten out, and we are very narrowly focused on one particular piece of that pipeline, and it is the making sure that the development organization is benefiting from all of the greatness that opensource has to offer, but none of the bad, and you have to do that with automation. >> So just really quick, John, for those of you who don't know, the theory of constraints, to a computer science person, looks like Amdahl's law. Speed up that which you do most frequently, for those of you who've ever done computer design. >> Herbie the Boy Scout. >> Exactly, so it's speed up the thing that is causing the most pain. >> Right, right, right. >> So the question I have for you this, okay, given what you guys do, which is a great service, cutting edge, it's in the devops wheelhouse, so, what is, in your opinion, the most important metric for your customer's success, vis a vis devops, okay, I'm in, I've been hearing about this cloud native thing and devops, we've got to change to Agile, we wrote a manifesto, we changed the organization, what is the important metric that you think they should look for for success? >> You know, there's a lot of metrics, there's no one answer, but I'll give you a really great one, since you mentioned Red Hat earlier. Red Hat is an amazing company that has probably done more for the evolution of opensource than anyone. They have a phenomenal track record of managing RHEL, the Red Hat Enterprise Linux stack, upstream and downstream, to the point where today, they publicly tell that the Red Hat Summit just recently in Boston, I think it's a day or two meantime to repair for a zero-day vulnerability. They understand the supply chain for RHEL extremely well, and from our perspective, we are trying to create the same type of hygiene for custom software development that RHEL has long practiced in support of Red Hat, Red Hat has long practiced in support of RHEL, and so meantime to repair, for example. If a zero-day vulnerability hits, do you have a software bill of materials? Are you wondering where that particular component is? Do you even have the component? How many applications in production are affected? I mean, this is a real-world scenario, just two weeks ago, with Struts 2, how many organizations are still working today to figure out the answer to that question? You'd be surprised, it takes organizations months-- >> Peter: But this is more than a library. >> This is more than a library. >> So explain why it's more than a library. >> Struts 2? >> No, what you're doing. >> What we're basically doing is imagining a software supply chain, so step back and imagine a world where you could build software applications the same way that Toyota builds cars. You have Deming's principles, which says you basically take and source the components or the parts from the fewer suppliers, and you source the absolute best parts, and you track and trace the location of those parts to every step of the supply chain all the way into production, so that Toyota recently had to conduct an orderly and effective recall for four million Takata airbags. Right? In software terms, the next time you're basically sitting on top of a zero day, you need the equivalent of that orderly effective recall so you can in a matter of minutes, not months, patch that vulnerability. >> Hence why you use Goldratt's theory of constraints, so in many respects, this is a digital supply chain tool? >> We believe it's software supply chain automation. >> What about digital? Can I also think about how digital objects can be included in that? Again, going back-- >> Containers? >> Going back to the big data notion? >> Yeah, absolutely, this is, supply chain theory is well understood in a physical goods world, certainly, if you look at how physical goods move through a supply chain, and you come to grips with what's happening in digital transformation today and the evolution of devops and the proliferation of opensource, continuous integration, continuous delivery, speed is king, it's all going in the direction of a supply chain. >> So, when you have so much bubblegum, as Peter said, after it loses its flavor, you get a new piece, right? So, same with software. Final question for you. You guys are doing well, I can imagine that operationally, as coming to operational as opensource, you're a key component there, and that seems like a good opportunity. How early are you on that operational progress? I mean, you just get started, you're making some money, which is good. >> To be frank-- >> You're the customer on the journey, in other words, people realize, "I got a operation on," so they're just doing it, not having a checks and balance. >> Our business is really interesting in the sense that product market fit for any young company can take quite a while, and we're fortunate enough to have a CEO who is remarkably patient and savvy and experienced, his name is Wayne Jackson, for anybody knows, here at the Cisco conference, he was previously the CEO of Sourcefire, so an interesting connection there, but patience is key, and we're being rewarded right now because all of the trends that you guys have already talked about here, and everything we've talked about at Cisco DevNet point to a simple fact, which is that software is key to how companies will compete and win in the future, and as long as that's true, they're going to be looking for ways to improve innovation. Right now, our business is early, we're still creating budget in some situations, but that's increasingly changing, and I would say that you should expect our business to continue to grow-- >> So people are operationalizing opensource, and they're getting serious about some of these things-- >> We're seeing budget now that we didn't see last year, for operationalizing the flow of opensource into a devops-- >> Final, final question, since I want to get your take on the show, Cisco's moves here into this world, obviously, a good move in our opinion, I'm sure you agree, risky for them, a good move, progress, what should they do next? Your thoughts and reaction to DevNet Create, 'cause man, they got DevNet, a growing, robust community of Cisco developers. DevNet Create, a new opportunity, what's your thoughts? >> I've learned a lot, I'm glad to be here, and just saw some things yesterday that make it very, very clear that DevNet Create and what Cisco's doing with it is a great move, I mean, my personal belief is that developers are king, and as you expose core services, network services to developers, an innovation happens, and value gets created, and so they've done so much at the network layer for so many years, and if they're now exposing that network sort of innovation to developers, it'll be exciting to see what kind of innovation happens. >> Matt, thanks for coming on theCUBE, really appreciate it, I'm glad we got you in, great to meet you last night, and congratulations on your startup that you're working with, and growth, and been around the industry a long time, you've seen a lot of waves, and appreciate the insight here on theCUBE, appreciate it. >> Appreciate you having me. >> Alright, we are live in San Francisco for exclusive coverage of Cisco's inaugural event DevNet Create, I'm John Furrier, Peter Burris, stay with us for more day two coverage after this short break. >> Hi, I'm April Mitchell, and I'm the Senior Director of Strategy and Planning for Cisco.

>> Announcer: Live from San Francisco, it's theCUBE, covering DevNet Create 2017, brought to you by Cisco. >> Hello everyone, welcome to day two of theCUBE's exclusive coverage Cisco Systems' DevNet Create, their inaugural event where they're put in the foray into the developer community and the open source community, really looking at DevOps, cloud-native, with data. Great move by Cisco. We're going to analyze it again here on the opening day and review yesterday a little bit and talk about what we think is happening here and give you the take on it, our angle, and extracting the signal from the noise. I'm John Furrier with my co-host Peter Burris for day two, head of research for SiliconANGLE Media, also, general manager of Wikibon.com. Check out Wikibon.com, great research, some free, most of it. The good stuff is behind subscription firewall via client. Check it out. Your business will do great because of it. Peter, quick plug there. Get that out of the way. But, let's talk about Cisco. >> Thank you, John. >> We said yesterday and kind of played out Cisco has an opportunity to transfer and grow their core development community, DevNet, which is only three years old, is very robust, it's the heartbeat of Cisco right now, it's the core constituency for Cisco Systems. We're talking tier one elite networking guys, the plumbers, (laughs) pack it movers, whatever you want to call them, they've been designing networks from internet scale to today, everything from Voice over IP, you name it, they've been doing it and the network has been the center of the action and the data center. It's been the most critical asset for availability, operational support, and stable. But not very adaptive, not very agile (laughing) so, you know, now-- >> Almost by definition. >> And that's the purpose is the network guys drive the network and enable opportunities, but now that shift has happened. It's DevOps application developers are driving change to the network and the big conversation is what does it mean for Cisco? What does it mean for their communities? And we were saying that this is an opportunity to extend. We had the folks first from RedHat on yesterday talking about how when you have things come together, there's opportunities. There could be a collision or there could be an opportunity so, can use data science and computer science come together. That is now big data. That's changed the game in the world. Cisco now has DevOps and networks coming together. Applications and infrastructure. This is an opportunity for Cisco. Your take from yesterday, do you feel it? Do you think it's real? What's your take? >> Well, it's real. Digital transformation's happening and it's happening because people can now do things with data that they couldn't do before and they're starting to. So, that's the base of digital transformation, but the reality is, in a digital business, you're going to be by definition, almost inherently, highly networked. And your ability to move data where it needs to be when it needs to be there to whom it needs to be so that they can consume it, is emerging as an essential capability. But, you're not going to do that manually everywhere. You're not going to do it manually in the infrastructure, it's just too complex. And you're certainly not going to do it manually in the applications. And so, you're absolutely right. Being at that edge, being at that margin between how the network does things, how the network is the basis for very high-quality capability for distributing application componentry and how the data then flows over that network under control by applications is really where the next five years are going to be, a lot of the new value is going to created and it's great to see so many developers here that are actually creating code at a conference that's being sponsored and put forward by Cisco. >> The AppDynamics is certainly a force in function for Cisco. Great acquisition. They paid a pretty penny for it, but it could've been more had they gone public (laughing) given the market that's in. So, AppDynamics comes in, Cisco now has a cloud-native direction, still work to do, but they're doing it in a way that's not all Cisco. They're not coming in with Cisco washing, "Hey, this is Cisco." They're really doing it right. They come in, 90% of the sessions are not Cisco at all. It's all community-based. Is this a working strategy for Cisco? Do you see, and what would you advise them because this is important. They have to do this, in my opinion. I think it's a great move, personally. But now, the innovator's dilemma is DevNet's exploding. You've got DevNet's beautiful community, it's growing. It's growing really fast. But, now you have Devnet Create. What do they do? >> Well, so, let's talk about the AppDynamics acquisition just for a second. As with everything, in talking about a big company acquiring a company of any size, you always have observe and see how it's going to play out, but it's got a lot of potential. One of the places that I think it's got a significant potential is in that AppDynamics, as a technology, does a great job of capturing metrics about application performance on networks and as we think about how the market and technology is going to be reconfigured so that networks can be better, more planful, more predictive about what kinds of things the applications are going to need, being able to surface that kind of data is going to be really, really crucial to setting the next round of conventions and that will lead to the answer of your question. If we think about where the market needs to go, we have full stack developers, we have networks. They talk to each other, but they don't engage in a meaningful way as often as they should and I think it's time for us to start thinking about above layer six, that layer seven, start breaking down layer seven and saying, "Well, that's where that full "distributed stack development's going to take place," so that we can start seeing how data will be reused, application services will be reused, componentry will be reused across a variety of different use cases and having that kind of a new structure defined and laid out so that it is built on the presumption that there's going to be a significant network in a way, in the middle of it, I think is going to be really important. Doing everything with RESTful APIs is really important, but I think the industry needs to get a lot more intelligent about how we're really going to build these things and not just presume that there is no network connection. There is a network connection. There has to be one and we have to build that into the architectures that we put forward in the future. >> So, programmable infrastructure as the DevOps ethos, that's what Cisco's proposing and saying they will and are becoming. I get that. I think that's the winning formula, but let's take that concept with what you just said. You're implying that okay, with now distributed infrastructure at scale, with AppDynamics and other things, the notion of a developer changes 'cause now, Cisco folks and their developer community, now is not just by itself, it's integrating in with the rest of the communities. That changes the notion of full stack developer because when you go hire, "I need to hire "a full stack developer," this stops really at the database or how low does it go? So, I think, you brought this up yesterday, not on camera, but after when we were kind of talking, is that this is an opportunity to reconfigure the new definition of a full stack developer. >> Yeah, I think so, John, and you know, one of the things we did talk about was when Susie was on camera yesterday, was the idea that yes, we can, as we introduce software-defined infrastructure, the infrastructure becomes programmable and so, we now see Cisco, CLI-type people thinking about programming instead of just doing command line work. We see it happening in the server world and the CAD world, et cetera, so there's no question that that notion of programmable infrastructure is becoming very real. What we're talking about is stepping it up and having it be available to developers in new and different ways, but utilizing new conventions that start to suggest that for time purposes, latency purposes, security purposes, think about organizing your application componentry in new ways so that the underlying network and infrastructure can provide even more robust capabilities and more consistent capabilities so that we can see further future ways of integrating these things together. And I think that's where this ends up. >> Interesting point about these network opportunity is that Cisco and networking guys are not a stranger to services. Network services have been around for a while. When you look at what came out of yesterday's conversation and this is consistent with a lot of our CUBE interviews we've done with cloud-native players like Amazon and everyone else like AWS and VMware and everyone else, is everything's a service. So the question that I have for the Cisco world is can they move quickly enough to a services model in this notion of a new network engineer, network developer, infrastructure developer? How well can they get transitioned over while preserving their core base of developers? >> I think they have to, so, and it's a great question and we're not going to have the answer from here, but I think one of the things we do need to start seeing and we're starting to hear rumblings of it is the idea that the network has to become more intelligent in the context of the services that the application developer utilizes that run above it and so, the network doesn't necessarily have to be made explicitly or overtly available, but it has to be intelligent enough so that it can provide new capabilities, new service levels, new security levels, et cetera, in a response to the way the services are invoked in the patterns of operation. You know, in many respects, we talked about this a little bit yesterday, John, I think we used to have infrastructure defined by hardware and that served the industry okay for a long time and in the last 10 years, we started talking about software-defined infrastructure. So, we moved from hardware-defined infrastructure to software-defined infrastructure and that's kind of where we are today with the idea of the network becoming more programmable. I think as a consequence of big data and recognition where digital business is going, where data really is the asset and the idea that we're going to build applications and then find data, we're going to start with data and then, decide what we need to do with that data through big data and other types of things, we're literally talking about, in the next five years, about something that we might call data-defined infrastructure where the data, the characteristics of the data, the location of the data, the way it's used, the way it creates value for the business, having a dominant impact on how the infrastructure gets configured and I think that's a, has enormous opportunity for Cisco. >> Yeah, Pat Gelsinger talks about the software-defined use and that's still part of the VMware strategy. This is kind of where it's going so I'm going to put you on the spot. >> Peter: Uh-oh. >> After yesterday's interviews, what did you learn? What did you walk away that's either net new information to you or something that validates something that you've been thinking about or had been researching and analyzing? >> Well, the first thing I'll note and somewhat self-servicing is Wikibon is known for being at the vanguard. We tend to be a little bit out in front and imagining what, how technology disruption's going to play out in response to the new use cases and business issues and it's always good to talk to people that are smarter than I am to start validating some of our positions. So, we heard a lot of, yesterday, that was pretty strong validation at a technical level and a couple of big vendors that are along the lines of what we're talking about so that was very useful. >> What did they validate? What specifically-- >> well, this notion of, for example, the notion of data-defined infrastructure. The idea that data in the future is going to be seminal to thinking about how infrastructure's intelligent, really configured based on the needs described within the data and the metadata. So, we heard that from a couple different people. Another thing that we heard was that there is a, that this not just, that Cisco's vision here of having developers and network jocks coming together to thinking about what the impact's going to be ultimately on how we create business value out of technology is something that's not just a Cisco pipe dream. We had four or five partners on yesterday, including a number of them who are quite sizable, RedHat, for example, who trumpet and reflect and are promoting similar types of concepts. And the other thing that I heard and I'm particularly going back to the PubNub conversation we had, it's really nice to see technology that is been around for a while, that works well, be really reconceived to be able to do new and different things and in particular, PubNub was talking about a deterministic Pub/Sub network infrastructure. Very interesting stuff, it's going to be really important. And the reason why I think that's important is because the lessons that we've learned in the past are not necessarily dead because we're going through transformation. One of the biggest things that I think we all need to take away from this is that we think about a computer, we think about my iPad, your Mac, a Dell machine, whatever else is, we think about that as computer, we think about a server as a computer, but the reality is, if you think about what we're trying to do through conferences like this is internet-scale computing where we look at the entire internet as a computer. Any data, any process-- >> Network's critical. The network is the essential element of it because that's what weaves the whole thing together and I think what we learned yesterday is the lessons of the past, some are going to be gone and we have to get rid of them, but a lot of them have more to do with business models. This is, we're still talking about computers and we're still talking about computer science. >> Great summary of your learnings. I learned, just to wrap up our intro segment, I learned a couple things. Observations that just popped out at me, one is Cisco has a lot of women in tech, engineers, so that was a very cool thing for me 'cause we always look at our index and theCUBE interviews over the thousands of people interviewed and still, only 18% have been women interviews. (laughing) Do more. That's our kind of passion. But they're smart and they're really knowledgeable and it's really awesome to see great women being featured. Certainly, Susie's a rockstar leader as CTO. The other thing that I learned in talking to Abby Kearns, Executive Director at Cloud Foundry and Dan at Cloud Native Foundation is open source is changing significantly-- >> Peter: It's a fair point. >> And open source communities used to be, "My community, yeah, we're winning!" And it's always been a gamer mentality or win-lose and I think now, with the horizontally-scalable cloud, you're starting to see a cross-pollination of players cross-pollinating and participating in multiple horizontal communities that together, is an expansion of the overall open source ecosystem. I think this is a new next generation dynamic that takes the tier one open source position, which really, it's our generation. We're seeing open source become tier one, not tier two, it's a tier one software where people's business models are now a open source. MuleSoft, these companies going public, multiple IPOs since RedHat just recently going public, I think you're going to see more business models on open source and open source is changing and I think cloud is a big part of that. >> That's a great point, John. And the only thing I'd add to it, since it's a great summary, is that we also heard yesterday that the very notion of leadership in the open source universe is starting to change. As people come up with new business models, they're also exploring with new ways of providing leadership that doesn't violate the basic precepts of open source because if there has been an issue in the open source universe, it's been that open source does a great job of, if you have a convention and a statement about where the product is, like an operating system, open source can do an equal or better job of it. If you start talking about use cases and a lot of business uncertainty and how open source can sometimes spend its time looking at each other, looking at other projects and filling holes in between projects and not getting to that use case. >> We've known for a while, it's not new to us that open source where the innovation is and that's certainly seeing companies have their employees there and that's where recruiting is going on, as well. But, I'm being more specific. I think the changing game in the open source community is going to be one that's going to reflect the structure of the industry and I think Cisco jumping in with this event will change the game in the makeup of open source and the projects because if you believe that the network is programmable, and that the cloud is one big computer operating system, then you have to believe that that's going to be a new domino that drops and falls and I think the impact of Cisco making programmable internet, programmable networks to developers will have a cascading effect that will ripple on and I think-- >> So, you're predicting a lot of new open source projects that Cisco's helped to catalyze. >> I'm predicting some turmoil that could be positive. Again, is it a collision or is it-- >> Peter: Yeah, it is. >> Edges coming together? >> And it's okay. >> John: And that's the chaos theory, you've talked about that. >> It's a good prediction. >> So, I think it's a lot of good stuff. We'll be watching and covering and of course, play-by-play action on theCUBE. More day two coverage on theCUBE after this short break. I'm John Furrier with Peter Burris, after this short break, stay with us. (upbeat music) >> Hi, I'm April Mitchell and I'm the Senior Director of Strategy & Planning for Cisco.

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: Live from San Francisco, it's theCUBE, covering DevNet Create 2017. Brought to you by Cisco. >> Hello, everyone, and welcome back to our live coverage from theCUBE exclusive, two days with Cisco's inaugural DevNet Create event. I'm John Furrier, with my co-host, Peter Burris, who's the general manager of Wikibon.com, and head of research for SiliconANGLE Media. We're talking with Susie Wee, who is the vice president and CTO of Cisco's DevNet, the creator of DevNet, the developer program that was started as grassroots, now a full-blown Cisco developer program. Now starting another foray into the cloud-native open-source community with this new event, DevNet Create. Welcome to theCUBE, thanks for joining us. >> Thank you, John. >> Thanks for having us. We love going to the inaugural events because they're always the first, and you know, being bloggers, and media, you got to be first. First news, first comments. >> Susie: Always first. >> Always first, and we're the only media here, so thank you. >> Susie: Thank you. >> So tell us about the event (Susie chuckles). You're the host and the creator, with your team. >> Susie: Yes. >> How did this come together, why DevNet Create? You have DevNet, this event is going extremely well, tell us. >> Awesome, so, yeah, so we have DevNet, we've had DevNet for about three years. It was actually exactly three years ago that we had our first DevNet Zone, a developer conference at Cisco Live, three years ago. And there, we felt like we pretty squarely hit... We've had successes there, we've had a pretty strong handle on our infrastructure audience, but what we see is that there's this huge transition, transformation going on in the industry, with IoT and cloud, that changes the definition of how applications meet infrastructure. And so this whole thing with, you know, applications, what is an application? What is the infrastructure? The infrastructure is now programmable, how can apps interact? It opens up a whole new world, and so what we did was we created DevNet Create as a standalone developer conference focused on IoT and cloud to focus on that transformation. >> And a lot of industry trends kind of going on, and moves you're making, it's the company, or you, Cisco is making, AppDynamics, big acquisition, kind of speaks to that, but also, there's always a natural progression for Cisco to have moving up the stack with software, but IoT gives you guys a unique opportunity with the network concept. So, making it network programmable, infrastructure as code, as some say in the DevOps world, is the ethos. >> Absolutely. >> How do you guys see yourselves engaging with the community, and what are some of the plans, and what's some of the feedback you're getting here at the event? >> So what we've done here at the event is that, you know, as you've seen from the channel is that, our content is 90% from the community, maybe 10% from Cisco, 90% from the community, because we believe it is all about the ecosystem. It's about how applications meet the infrastructure, it's the systems people are building together. And there's a lot of movement in developing these technologies. We don't know the final form of how an IoT app... Like, who's going to build the app, who's going to build the users, who's going to run the service, who's going to run the infrastructure? It's all still evolving, and we think that the community needs to come together to solve this to make the most of the opportunity. And so that's what, really, this is all about. And then, we think it actually involves learning the languages, making sure that the app folks know the language of the infrastructure folks. They don't have to become experts in it, but just knowing the language. Understand what part's programmable, what part's not, what benefit can you derive from the infrastructure. And then, by really having knowledge of what you can get across, and creating a forum for people to get together to have this conversation, we can make those breakthroughs. >> So just a clarification, you said that 90% of the sessions are non-Cisco, or from the community, and only 10% from Cisco? >> Susie: That's right. >> Is that by design? >> That is absolutely by design. So, when we have the DevNet Zone at Cisco Live, that's all about all of Cisco's products, platforms, APIs, bringing in the community to come and learn about those, but DevNet Create was really, squarely for IoT and app developers, IoT app developers, cloud developers, people working on DevOps, to look at that intersection. So we didn't go into all the gory details of networking, like we very much like to do, but we were really trying to focus on, "What's the value to application developers, "and what are the opportunities?" >> Well, it's interesting because, Susie, we're in the midst, as you said, of a pretty significant transformation, and there's a lot of turbulence, not only in business and how business conceives of digital technology, and the role it's going to play, the developer world, cloud-this, cloud-that, different suppliers, but one of the anchor points is the network, even though the network itself is changing, >> It is. >> in the midst of a transformation, but it's a step function. So, you go from, on the wireless, go outside, 1G to 3G, to 5G, et cetera, that kind of thing, but how is the developer going to inform that next step function in the network, the next big transformation in the network, and to what degree is this kind of a session going to really catalyze that kind of a change? >> Absolutely. So, what happens is, you're right, it's something that we all know, all app developers know, and actually, every person in the world knows, the network is important. The network provides connectivity, the network is what provides Internet, data, and everything there. That's critical to apps, but the thing that's been heard about it is it's not programmable. Like, you kind of get that thing configured, it's working now, you leave it. Don't touch it. >> It's still wires. In the minds of a lot of people, (Susie laughs) it's still wires, right? >> It is, it's wires, or even if it's wireless, once you can get it configured, you leave it. You're not playing with it again, it's too, kind of, dangerous or fragile to change it. >> Because of the sensitivity to operational... >> Because of the sensitivity to operations. The big change that's happening is the network is becoming programmable. The network has APIs, and then, we have things like automation and controller-based networking coming into play, so you don't actually configure it by going one network device at a time, you feed these into a controller, and then, now you're actually doing network-wide commands. That takes out the human error, it actually makes it easy to configure and reconfigure. And when you have that ability to provision resources, to kind of reset configurations, when you can do that quickly through APIs, you suddenly have a tool that you never had before. So let me give you an example. So let's say that you're in a building, you have your badging systems, your automated elevators, you have your surveillance cameras, you want to put out a new security system with surveillance cameras. You don't want to put that on the same network segment as your vending machines. You have a different level of security required. Could put in a work order to say... >> Unless you're really worried about who's stealing from the vending machines. (all laugh) >> So what you can do, now that it's programmable, is use infrastructure as code, is basically say, "Boom, give me a new network segment, "let me drop these new devices onto it, "let the programmable network automatically create "a separate network segment that has "all of these devices together." Then you can start to use group-based policy to now set, you know, the rules that you want, for how those cameras are accessed, who they're accessible by, what kind of data can come in and out of it. You can actually do that with infrastructure as code. That was not a knob that app developers had before. So they don't need to become networking experts, but now they have these knobs that they can use to give you that next level of security, to give you that next level of programmability, and to do it at the speed that an app developer needs. >> So I was talking to Steve Post-y earlier this morning, and he's from Redhead, he's a lead developer, he's not a network guy, he's self-proclaimed, "Hey, I'm not a networking person, I care about apps," and he's a developer, and he brought up something interesting I want to get your thoughts on. I think you're onto something really big with your vision, which is why we're so pumped about it, and he brought up an example of ecosystem's edges, and margins of the edge of these, that when they come together, creates innovation opportunities. And he used the example of data science meets cloud. And what he was using in particular was the example of most data people in the old days were data jocks, they did data, they did things, and they weren't really computer scientists, but as those two communities came together, the computer scientist saying, "Hey, I don't know about data," and the data guy's like, "Hey, you know about algorithms," "I know about algorithms," so innovation happened when that came together. What you're doing here, if I got this right, is you're saying, "Hey, DevNet's doing great," from a Cisco perspective, "but now this whole new creative innovation world "in the cloud is happening in real time. "Bring 'em together, "so best of Cisco knowledge to the guys who don't want to be (chuckles) "experts in that can share information." Is that kind of where this is going? >> Yeah, that's exactly where it's going, and same example, earlier in my career, I was working on sending video over networks, and then you had the networking people doing networking, you had the video people doing video compression, but then video networking, or streaming media, kind of, oh, you can put, you know, your knowledge of the compression and the network all together, so that kind of emerged as a field. The same thing, so, so far, the applications, and the infrastructure, and IT departments have been completely separate. You would just do the best you can, it was the job of IT to provide it, but now, suddenly there's an opportunity to bring these together. And it's, again, it's because the infrastructure's becoming programmable, and now it has knobs and can work quickly. So, yes, this is kind of new ground. And things could continue the way they are, right? And it's okay, we're getting by, but you just won't be realizing the potential of the real kind of... >> Well, open-source has clearly demonstrated that the collective intelligence of communities can really move fast, and share, and it's now tier one, so you're seeing companies go public, MuleSoft, Cloudera, and the list goes on and on. So now you have the dynamic of open-source, so I got to ask you the question, as you go out with DevNet Create, as this creation, the builders that are out there building apps are going to have programmable networks, how do you see this next leg of the journey? Because you have the foray now with DevNet Create, looks good, really well done, what's next? >> What's next is going on and making the real instances that show the application and infrastructure synergy. So let me just give you a really simple example of something that we're doing, which is that Apple and Cisco have had a partnership, and this partnership is coming together in that we have iOS developers who are writing mobile apps. So you have your mobile apps people are writing, we have iOS 10, your app developers are writing these apps. But everybody knows you run into a situation where your app gets congested on the network. Let's say that we're here in Westfield Mall, and they want to put out an AR/VR app, and you want that traffic to work, right? 'Cause if the mall wants to offer an AR/VR service, it takes a lot of bandwidth to get that data through, but through this partnership, what we have is an ability we have to use an iOS 10 SDK to, basically, business optimize your app so that it can run well on a Cisco infrastructure. So basically, it's just saying, "Hey, this is important, "put it in the highest QoS (John laughs) level setting, "and make your AR/VR work." So it's just having these real instances where these work together. >> I mean, I used to be a plumber back in my day when I used to work at HP, and I know how hard it is, and so I'm going to bring this up, because networks used to be stable and fragile/brittle, and then that would determine what you could do on top of it. But there are things like DNS, we hear about DNS, we hear about configuration management, setting ports, and doing this, to your point, I want dynamic provisioning or policy at any given moment, yet the network's got to be ready to do that. >> You don't want to submit a work order for that. (laughs) >> You don't want to have to say, "Hey, can you provision port, whatever, "I need to send a bunch of bandwidth." This is what we're talking about when we say programmable infrastructure, just letting the apps interface with network APIs, right? >> Absolutely, and I think that, you heard earlier, that with CNCF, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, just announced CNI, so that what they're doing is now offering an ability to take your kind of container orchestration and take into consideration what's going on in the network, right? So if this link is more congested than that, then make sure that you're doing your orchestration in the right ways, that the network is informing the cloud layer, that the cloud platform's informing the network, so that's going to be huge. >> But do you think, I'm curious, Susie, do you think that we're going to see a time when we start bringing conventions at layer 7 in the network, so we start to parse layer 7 down a little bit, so developers can think in terms of some of those higher-level services that previously have been presentation? Are we likely to see that kind of a thing? As the pain of the network starts to go away, and an explicit knowledge of layer 1-6 become a lot less important, are we going to see a natural expansion at layer 7, and think about distributed data, distributed applications, distributed services, more coherence to how that happens on an industry-wide basis? What do you think? >> Yeah, so let's see, I don't know if I have a view on which layers go away, or which layers compress... >> But the knowledge, the focal point of those? >> But the knowledge, absolutely. So it comes into play, and what happens is, like, what is the infrastructure? In the Internet of things, things are a part of your infrastructure. That's just different. As you're going to microservices, applications aren't applications, they're being written as microservices, and then once you put those microservices in containers, they can move around. So you actually have a pretty different paradigm for thinking about the architecture of applications, of how they're orchestrated, what resources they sit on, and how you provision, so you get a very new paradigm for that. And then the key is... >> But they're inherently networked? >> That's right, that's right. It's all about connectivity, it's all about, you know, they don't do anything without the network. And we're pushing the boundaries of the network. >> These aren't function calls over memory like we used to think about things, these things are inherently networked. We know we have network SOAs, and service levels, and whatnot... >> Susie: There is. >> It sounds like we have... I was wondering, here, at this conference, are developers starting to talk about, "Geez, I would like to look at Kubernetes "as a lower-level feature in layer 7," >> Susie: They are. (laughs) >> "where there's a consistent approach to thinking about "how that orchestration layer is going to work, "and how containers work above that, "because I don't have to worry about session anymore, I don't have to worry about transmission." >> Susie: Absolutely. >> That goes away, so give me a little bit more visibility into some of that higher-level stuff, where, really, the connectivity issues are becoming more obvious. >> Absolutely, and an interesting example is that, you know, we actually talked about AppDynamics in the keynote, and so, with AppDynamics, what kind of information can you get from these bits of code that are running in different places? And it comes into where we have the Royal Bank of Scotland, who's saying, "What's my busiest bank branch "where people are doing mobile banking in the country?" And they're like, "Well, how do I answer that question?" And then you see that, oh, someone has their mobile phone, they take an app, then you actually break it down to how is that request, that API, how is that being, kind of, operated throughout your network. And when you take a look, you say, "Okay, well, this called this "piece of code that's running here. "This piece of code used this API to talk to this other service, to talk to this other," you can map that out, get back the calls of, "Hey, this is how many times this API has been called, "this is how many times this service has been called, "this is the ones that are talking to who," then they came up with the answer, saying that our busiest bank branch is the 9 a.m. Paddington Train Station. >> And that's a great example, because now you gain visibility >> Exactly >> into where the dependencies are, which even if you don't explicitly render it that way, starts to build a picture of what the layers of function might look like based on the dependencies and the sharing of the underlying services. >> That's right, and that's where you're saying, like, "What? The infrastructure just gave me business value (John laughs) "in a very direct way. "How did that happen?" >> John: That's a huge opportunity for Cisco. >> So it's a big... >> Well, let's get in the studio and let's break down the Kubernetes and the containers, 'cause Docker's here, a lot of other folks are here. We've had, also, Abby Kearns, the executive director of Cloud Foundry. We've had the executive director from the Cloud Native Compute Foundation, Dan was here, a lot of folks here in the industry kind of validating >> Yeah, Craig was here. >> your support. Sun used to have an expression, the network is the computer, but now, maybe Chuck Robbins should go for network is the app, or the app is the network, (Susie laughs) I mean, that's what's happening here. The interplay between the two is happening big time. >> It is happening here, yeah. Just every element, every piece of code, what we saw is that this year, developers will write 111 billion lines of code. You think about that, every piece of... >> Peter: That we know about. (chuckles) >> That we know about, there's probably more. (chuckles) and all of that, you're right, these are broken up into pieces that are inherently networked, right? They have data, it's all about data and information that they're sharing to give interesting experiences. So this is absolutely a new paradigm. >> Well, congratulations on your success. What a great journey, I know it's been a short time, but I noticed after our in-studio interview, when you came in to share with us, the show, as a preview, Chuck Robbins retweeted one of the tweets. >> Susie: He did. >> And so I got to ask you, internally at Cisco, I know you put this together kind of as a entrepreneurial inside the company, and had support for that, what is the conversation you have with Chuck and the executive team about this effort? Because they got to see a clear line of sight that the value of the network is creating business value. What are some of the internal conversations, can you give us a little bit of color without giving away all the trade secrets? >> Yeah, well, internally, we're getting huge support. Chuck Robbins checks in on this, he actually has been checking in saying, "How's it going?" Rowan Trollope sending, "Hey, how's it going? "I heard it's going great." >> Did he text you today? >> Chuck did a couple days ago. >> John: Okay. (chuckles) >> And then Rowan, today, so, yeah, so we have a lot of conversation. >> Rowan's a CUBE alumni, Chuck's got to get on theCUBE, (Susie laughs) Rowan's been on before. >> Yeah, so they're all kind of checking in on it. We have the IoT World Forum going on in parallel, in London, so, otherwise, they would be here as well. But they understand... >> John: There's a general excitement? This is not a rogue event? >> There's huge excitement. >> This is not, like, a rogue event? >> It's not, it's not, and what happens is... They also understand that we're talking about bringing in the ecosystem. It's not just a Cisco conversation, it is a community... >> Yeah, you're doing it right, you're not trying to take over the sandbox. You're coming in with respect and actually putting out content, and learning. >> Putting out content, and really, it's all about letting people interact and create this new area. It's breaking new ground, it's facilitating a conversation. I mean, where apps meet infrastructure, it's controversial as well. Some people should say, "They should never meet. "Why would they ever meet?" (Susie and John laugh) >> So, we do a lot of shows, I was telling Peter that, you know, we were at the first Hadoop Summit, second Hadoop World, with Cloudera, when they were a small startup, Docker's first event, CubeCon's first event, we do a lot of firsts, and I got to tell you, the energy here feels a lot like those events, where it's just so obvious that (chuckles) "Okay, finally, programmable infrastructure." >> Well, I'll be honest, I'm relieved, because, you know, we were taking a bet. So, you know, when I was bouncing this idea off of you, we were talking about it, it was a risk. So the question is, will it appeal to the app developers, will it appeal to the cloud developers, will it appeal overall? And I'm very relieved and happy to see that the vibe is very positive. >> Very positive. >> So people are very receptive to these ideas. >> Well, you know community, give more than you take has always been a great philosophy. >> I'm always a little paranoid and (John laughs) nervous but I'm very pleased, 'cause people seem to be really happy. There's a lot of action. >> There are a lot of PCs with Docker stickers on them here. (John laughs) >> There are. (laughs) There are, yes, yes. We have the true cloud, IoT, we have the hardcore developers here, and they seem to be very engaged and really embracing... >> Well, we've always been covering DevOps, again, from the beginning, and cloud-native is, to me, it's just a semantic word for DevOps. It's happening, it's going mainstream, and great to see Cisco, and congratulations on all your work, and thanks for including theCUBE in your inaugural event. >> Susie: Thank you. >> Susie Wee, Vice President and CTO at Cisco's DevNet. We're here for the inaugural event, DevNet Create, with the community, two great communities coming together. I'm John Furrier with Peter Burris, stay tuned for more coverage from our exclusive DevNet Create coverage, stay with us. (upbeat music) >> Hi, I'm April Mitchell, and I'm the senior director of strategy.