(soft music) >> Announcer: TheCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies. Creating technologies that drive human progress. (upbeat music) >> Welcome back to Spain, everybody. We're here at the Fira in MWC23. Is just an amazing day. This place is packed. They said 80,000 people. I think it might even be a few more walk-ins. I'm Dave Vellante, Lisa Martin is here, David Nicholson. But right now we have the Analyst Hot Takes with three friends of theCUBE. Chris Lewis is back again with me in the co-host seat. Zeus Kerravala, analyst extraordinaire. Great to see you, Z. and Sarbjeet SJ Johal. Good to see you again, theCUBE contributor. And that's my new name for him. He says that is his nickname. Guys, thanks for coming back on. We got the all male panel, sorry, but it is what it is. So Z, is this the first time you've been on it at MWC. Take aways from the show, Hot Takes. What are you seeing? Same wine, new bottle? >> In a lot of ways, yeah. I mean, I was talking to somebody this earlier that if you had come from like MWC five years ago to this year, a lot of the themes are the same. Telco transformation, cloud. I mean, 5G is a little new. Sustainability is certainly a newer theme here. But I think it highlights just the difficulty I think the telcos have in making this transformation. And I think, in some ways, I've been unfair to them in some degree 'cause I've picked on them in the past for not moving fast enough. These are, you know, I think these kind of big transformations almost take like a perfect storm of things that come together to happen, right? And so, in the past, we had technologies that maybe might have lowered opex, but they're hard to deploy. They're vertically integrated. We didn't have the software stacks. But it appears today that between the cloudification of, you know, going to cloud native, the software stacks, the APIs, the ecosystems, I think we're actually in a position to see this industry finally move forward. >> Yeah, and Chris, I mean, you have served this industry for a long time. And you know, when you, when you do that, you get briefed as an analyst, you actually realize, wow, there's a lot of really smart people here, and they're actually, they have challenges, they're working through it. So Zeus was saying he's been tough on the industry. You know, what do you think about how the telcos have evolved in the last five years? >> I think they've changed enormously. I think the problem we have is we're always looking for the great change, the big step change, and there is no big step change in a way. What telcos deliver to us as individuals, businesses, society, the connectivity piece, that's changed. We get better and better and more reliable connectivity. We're shunting a load more capacity through. What I think has really changed is their attitude to their suppliers, their attitude to their partners, and their attitude to the ecosystem in which they play. Understanding that connectivity is not the end game. Connectivity is part of the emerging end game where it will include storage, compute, connect, and analytics and everything else. So I think the realization that they are not playing their own game anymore, it's a much more open game. And some things they will continue to do, some things they'll stop doing. We've seen them withdraw from moving into adjacent markets as much as we used to see. So a lot of them in the past went off to try and do movies, media, and a lot went way way into business IT stuff. They've mainly pulled back from that, and they're focusing on, and let's face it, it's not just a 5G show. The fixed environment is unbelievably important. We saw that during the pandemic. Having that fixed broadband connection using wifi, combining with cellular. We love it. But the problem as an industry is that the users often don't even know the connectivity's there. They only know when it doesn't work, right? >> If it's not media and it's not business services, what is it? >> Well, in my view, it will be enabling third parties to deliver the services that will include media, that will include business services. So embedding the connectivity all the way into the application that gets delivered or embedding it so the quality mechanism deliver the gaming much more accurately or, I'm not a gamer, so I can't comment on that. But no, the video quality if you want to have a high quality video will come through better. >> And those cohorts will pay for that value? >> Somebody will pay somewhere along the line. >> Seems fuzzy to me. >> Me too. >> I do think it's use case dependent. Like you look at all the work Verizon did at the Super Bowl this year, that's a perfect case where they could have upsold. >> Explain that. I'm not familiar with it. >> So Verizon provided all the 5G in the Super Bowl. They provided a lot of, they provided private connectivity for the coaches to talk to the sidelines. And that's a mission critical application, right? In the NFL, if one side can't talk, the other side gets shut down. You can't communicate with the quarterback or the coaches. There's a lot of risk at that. So, but you know, there's a case there, though, I think where they could have even made that fan facing. Right? And if you're paying 2000 bucks to go to a game, would you pay 50 bucks more to have a higher tier of bandwidth so you can post things on social? People that go there, they want people to know they were there. >> Every football game you go to, you can't use your cell. >> Analyst: Yeah, I know, right? >> All right, let's talk about developers because we saw the eight APIs come out. I think ISVs are going to be a big part of this. But it's like Dee Arthur said. Hey, eight's better than zero, I guess. Okay, so, but so the innovation is going to come from ISVs and developers, but what are your hot takes from this show and now day two, we're a day and a half in, almost two days in. >> Yeah, yeah. There's a thing that we have talked, I mentioned many times is skills gravity, right? Skills have gravity, and also, to outcompete, you have to also educate. That's another theme actually of my talks is, or my research is that to puts your technology out there to the practitioners, you have to educate them. And that's the only way to democratize your technology. What telcos have been doing is they have been stuck to the proprietary software and proprietary hardware for too long, from Nokia's of the world and other vendors like that. So now with the open sourcing of some of the components and a few others, right? And they're open source space and antenna, you know? Antennas are becoming software now. So with the invent of these things, which is open source, it helps us democratize that to the other sort of skirts of the practitioners, if you will. And that will bring in more applications first into the IOT space, and then maybe into the core sort of California, if you will. >> So what does a telco developer look like? I mean, all the blockchain developers and crypto developers are moving into generative AI, right? So maybe those worlds come together. >> You'd like to think though that the developers would understand everything's network centric today. So you'd like to think they'd understand that how the network responds, you know, you'd take a simple app like Zoom or something. If it notices the bandwidth changes, it should knock down the resolution. If it goes up it, then you can add different features and things and you can make apps a lot smarter that way. >> Well, G2 was saying today that they did a deal with Mercedes, you know this probably better than I do, where they're going to embed WebEx in the car. And if you're driving, it'll shut off the camera. >> Of course. >> I'm like, okay. >> I'll give you a better example though. >> But that's my point. Like, isn't there more that we can do? >> You noticed down on the SKT stand the little helicopter. That's a vertical lift helicopter. So it's an electric vertical lift helicopter. Just think of that for a second. And then think of the connectivity to control that, to securely control that. And then I was recently at an event with Zeus actually where we saw an air traffic control system where there was no people manning the tower. It was managed by someone remotely with all the cameras around them. So managing all of those different elements, we call it IOT, but actually it's way more than what we thought of as IOT. All those components connecting, communicating securely and safely. 'Cause I don't want that helicopter to come down on my head, do you? (men laugh) >> Especially if you're in there. (men laugh) >> Okay, so you mentioned sustainability. Everybody's talking about power. I don't know if you guys have a lot of experience around TCO, but I'm trying to get to, well, is this just because energy costs are so high, and then when the energy becomes cheap again, nobody's going to pay any attention to it? Or is this the real deal? >> So one of the issues around the, if we want to experience all that connectivity locally or that helicopter wants to have that connectivity, we have to ultimately build denser, more reliable networks. So there's a CapEx, we're going to put more base stations in place. We need more fiber in the ground to support them. Therefore, the energy consumption will go up. So we need to be more efficient in the use of energy. Simple as that. >> How much of the operating expense is energy? Like what percent of it? Is it 10%? Is it 20%? Is it, does anybody know? >> It depends who you ask and it depends on the- >> I can't get an answer to that. I mean, in the enterprise- >> Analyst: The data centers? >> Yeah, the data centers. >> We have the numbers. I think 10 to 15%. >> It's 10 to 12%, something like that. Is it much higher? >> I've got feeling it's 30%. >> Okay, so if it's 30%, that's pretty good. >> I do think we have to get better at understanding how to measure too. You know, like I was talking with John Davidson at Sysco about this that every rev of silicon they come out with uses more power, but it's a lot more dense. So at the surface, you go, well, that's using a lot more power. But you can consolidate 10 switches down to two switches. >> Well, Intel was on early and talking about how they can intelligently control the cores. >> But it's based off workload, right? That's the thing. So what are you running over it? You know, and so, I don't think our industry measures that very well. I think we look at things kind of boxed by box versus look at total consumption. >> Well, somebody else in theCUBE was saying they go full throttle. That the networks just say just full throttle everything. And that obviously has to change from the power consumption standpoint. >> Obviously sustainability and sensory or sensors from IOT side, they go hand in hand. Just simple examples like, you know, lights in the restrooms, like in public areas. Somebody goes in there and just only then turns. The same concept is being applied to servers and compute and storage and every aspects and to networks as well. >> Cell tower. >> Yeah. >> Cut 'em off, right? >> Like the serverless telco? (crosstalk) >> Cell towers. >> Well, no, I'm saying, right, but like serverless, you're not paying for the compute when you're not using it, you know? >> It is serverless from the economics point of view. Yes, it's like that, you know? It goes to the lowest level almost like sleep on our laptops, sleep level when you need more power, more compute. >> I mean, some of that stuff's been in networking equipment for a long time, it just never really got turned on. >> I want to ask you about private networks. You wrote a piece, Athenet was acquired by HPE right after Dell announced a relationship with Athenet, which was kind of, that was kind of funny. And so a good move, good judo move by by HP. I asked Dell about it, and they said, look, we're open. They said the right things. We'll see, but I think it's up to HP. >> Well, and the network inside Dell is. >> Yeah, okay, so. Okay, cool. So, but you said something in that article you wrote on Silicon Angle that a lot of people feel like P5G is going to basically replace wireless or cannibalize wireless. You said you didn't agree with that. Explain why? >> Analyst: Wifi. >> Wifi, sorry, I said wireless. >> No, that's, I mean that's ridiculous. Pat Gelsinger said that in his last VMware, which I thought was completely irresponsible. >> That it was going to cannibalize? >> Cannibalize wifi globally is what he said, right? Now he had Verizon on stage with him, so. >> Analyst: Wifi's too inexpensive and flexible. >> Wifi's cheap- >> Analyst: It's going to embed really well. Embedded in that. >> It's reached near ubiquity. It's unlicensed. So a lot of businesses don't want to manage their own spectrum, right? And it's great for this, right? >> Analyst: It does the job. >> For casual connectivity. >> Not today. >> Well, it does for the most part. Right now- >> For the most part. But never at these events. >> If it's engineered correctly, it will. Right? Where you need private 5G is when reliability is an absolute must. So, Chris, you and I visited the Port of Rotterdam, right? So they're putting 5G, private 5G there, but there's metal containers everywhere, right? And that's going to disrupt it. And so there are certain use cases where it makes sense. >> I've been in your basement, and you got some pretty intense equipment in there. You have private 5G in there. >> But for carpeted offices, it does not make sense to bring private. The economics don't make any sense. And you know, it runs hot. >> So where's it going to be used? Give us some examples of where we should be looking for. >> The early ones are obviously in mining, and you say in ports, in airports. It broadens cities because you've got so many moving parts in there, and always think about it, very expensive moving parts. The cranes in the port are normally expensive piece of kits. You're moving that, all that logistics around. So managing that over a distance where the wifi won't work over the distance. And in mining, we're going to see enormous expensive trucks moving around trying to- >> I think a great new use case though, so the Cleveland Browns actually the first NFL team to use it for facial recognition to enter the stadium. So instead of having to even pull your phone out, it says, hey Dave Vellante. You've got four tickets, can we check you all in? And you just walk through. You could apply that to airports. You could do put that in a hotel. You could walk up and check in. >> Analyst: Retail. >> Yeah, retail. And so I think video, realtime video analytics, I think it's a perfect use case for that. >> But you don't need 5G to do that. You could do that through another mechanism, couldn't you? >> You could do wire depending on how mobile you want to do it. Like in a stadium, you're pulling those things in and out all the time. You're moving 'em around and things, so. >> Yeah, but you're coming in at a static point. >> I'll take the contrary view here. >> See, we can't even agree on that. (men laugh) >> Yeah, I love it. Let's go. >> I believe the reliability of connection is very important, right? And the moving parts. What are the moving parts in wifi? We have the NIC card, you know, the wifi card in these suckers, right? In a machine, you know? They're bigger in size, and the radios for 5G are smaller in size. So neutralization is important part of the whole sort of progress to future, right? >> I think 5G costs as well. Yes, cost as well. But cost, we know that it goes down with time, right? We're already talking about 60, and the 5G stuff will be good. >> Actually, sorry, so one of the big boom areas at the moment is 4G LTE because the component price has come down so much, so it is affordable, you can afford to bring it all together. People don't, because we're still on 5G, if 5G standalone everywhere, you're not going to get a consistent service. So those components are unbelievably important. The skillsets of the people doing integration to bring them all together, unbelievably important. And the business case within the business. So I was talking to one of the heads of one of the big retail outlets in the UK, and I said, when are you going to do 5G in the stores? He said, well, why would I tear out all the wifi? I've got perfectly functioning wifi. >> Yeah, that's true. It's already there. But I think the technology which disappears in front of you, that's the best technology. Like you don't worry about it. You don't think it's there. Wifi, we think we think about that like it's there. >> And I do think wifi 5G switching's got to get easier too. Like for most users, you don't know which is better. You don't even know how to test it. And to your point, it does need to be invisible where the user doesn't need to think about it, right? >> Invisible. See, we came back to invisible. We talked about that yesterday. Telecom should be invisible. >> And it should be, you know? You don't want to be thinking about telecom, but at the same time, telecoms want to be more visible. They want to be visible like Netflix, don't they? I still don't see the path. It's fuzzy to me the path of how they're not going to repeat what happened with the over the top providers if they're invisible. >> Well, if you think about what telcos delivers to consumers, to businesses, then extending that connectivity into your home to help you support secure and extend your connection into Zeus's basement, whatever it is. Obviously that's- >> His awesome setup down there. >> And then in the business environment, there's a big change going on from the old NPLS networks, the old rigid structures of networks to SD1 where the control point is moved outside, which can be under control of the telco, could be under the control of a third party integrator. So there's a lot changing. I think we obsess about the relative role of the telco. The demand is phenomenal for connectivity. So address that, fulfill that. And if they do that, then they'll start to build trust in other areas. >> But don't you think they're going to address that and fulfill that? I mean, they're good at it. That's their wheelhouse. >> And it's a 1.6 trillion market, right? So it's not to be sniffed at. That's fixed on mobile together, obviously. But no, it's a big market. And do we keep changing? As long as the service is good, we don't move away from it. >> So back to the APIs, the eight APIs, right? >> I mean- >> Eight APIs is a joke actually almost. I think they released it too early. The release release on the main stage, you know? Like, what? What is this, right? But of course they will grow into hundreds and thousands of APIs. But they have to spend a lot of time and effort in that sort of context. >> I'd actually like to see the GSMA work with like AWS and Microsoft and VMware and software companies and create some standardization across their APIs. >> Yeah. >> I spoke to them yes- >> We're trying to reinvent them. >> Is that not what they're doing? >> No, they said we are not in the business of a defining standards. And they used a different term, not standard. I mean, seriously. I was like, are you kidding me? >> Let's face it, there aren't just eight APIs out there. There's so many of them. The TM forum's been defining when it's open data architecture. You know, the telcos themselves are defining them. The standards we talked about too earlier with Danielle. There's a lot of APIs out there, but the consistency of APIs, so we can bring them together, to bring all the different services together that will support us in our different lives is really important. I think telcos will do it, it's in their interest to do it. >> All right, guys, we got to wrap. Let's go around the horn here, starting with Chris, Zeus, and then Sarbjeet, just bring us home. Number one hot take from Mobile World Congress MWC23 day two. >> My favorite hot take is the willingness of all the participants who have been traditional telco players who looked inwardly at the industry looking outside for help for partnerships, and to build an ecosystem, a more open ecosystem, which will address our requirements. >> Zeus? >> Yeah, I was going to talk about ecosystem. I think for the first time ever, when I've met with the telcos here, I think they're actually, I don't think they know how to get there yet, but they're at least aware of the fact that they need to understand how to build a big ecosystem around them. So if you think back like 50 years ago, IBM and compute was the center of everything in your company, and then the ecosystem surrounded it. I think today with digital transformation being network centric, the telcos actually have the opportunity to be that center of excellence, and then build an ecosystem around them. I think the SIs are actually in a really interesting place to help them do that 'cause they understand everything top to bottom that I, you know, pre pandemic, I'm not sure the telcos were really understand. I think they understand it today, I'm just not sure they know how to get there. . >> Sarbjeet? >> I've seen the lot of RN demos and testing companies and I'm amazed by it. Everything is turning into software, almost everything. The parts which are not turned into software. I mean every, they will soon. But everybody says that we need the hardware to run something, right? But that hardware, in my view, is getting miniaturized, and it's becoming smaller and smaller. The antennas are becoming smaller. The equipment is getting smaller. That means the cost on the physicality of the assets is going down. But the cost on the software side will go up for telcos in future. And telco is a messy business. Not everybody can do it. So only few will survive, I believe. So that's what- >> Software defined telco. So I'm on a mission. I'm looking for the monetization path. And what I haven't seen yet is, you know, you want to follow the money, follow the data, I say. So next two days, I'm going to be looking for that data play, that potential, the way in which this industry is going to break down the data silos I think there's potential goldmine there, but I haven't figured out yet. >> That's a subject for another day. >> Guys, thanks so much for coming on. You guys are extraordinary partners of theCUBE friends, and great analysts and congratulations and thank you for all you do. Really appreciate it. >> Analyst: Thank you. >> Thanks a lot. >> All right, this is a wrap on day two MWC 23. Go to siliconangle.com for all the news. Where Rob Hope and team are just covering all the news. John Furrier is in the Palo Alto studio. We're rocking all that news, taking all that news and putting it on video. Go to theCUBE.net, you'll see everything on demand. Thanks for watching. This is a wrap on day two. We'll see you tomorrow. (soft music)

>>Drew and I are pleased to welcome Kevin Warda. Who's the director of information technology services at the Hotchkis school, a very prestigious and well respected boarding school in the beautiful Northwest corner of Connecticut. Hello, Kevin? >>Hello. It's nice to be here. Thanks for having me. >>Yeah, you, you bet. Hey, tell us a little bit more about the Hotchkis school and your role. >>Sure. The hacha school is an independent boarding school, grades nine through 12, as you said, very prestigious and in an absolutely beautiful location on the deepest freshwater lake in Connecticut, we have 500 K 500 acre main campus and a 200 acre farm down the street. My role is as the director of information technology services, essentially to oversee all of the technology that supports the school operations, academics, sports, everything we do on campus. >>Yeah. And you've had a very strong history in the educational field, you know, from that lens what's, what's the unique, you know, or not unique, but the pressing security challenge that's top of mind for you. >>I think that it's clear that educational institutions are a target these days, especially for ransomware. We have a lot of data that can be used by threat actors and schools are often underfunded in the area of it, security it in general sometimes. So I think threat actors often see us as easy targets or at least worthwhile to try to get into, >>Because specifically you are potentially spread thin underfunded. You gotta, you, you got students, you got teachers. So there really are some, are there any specific data privacy concerns as well around student privacy or regulations that you can speak to? >>Certainly because of the fact that we're an independent boarding school, we operate things like even a health center. So data privacy regulations across the board in terms of just student data rights Ferra, some of our students are under 18. So data privacy laws such as Copa apply HIPAA can apply. We have PCI regulations with many of our financial transactions, whether it be fundraising through alumni development, or even just accepting the revenue for tuition. So it's, it's a unique place to be. Again, we operate very much like a college would, right? We have all the trappings of a, of a private college in terms of all the operations we do. And that's what I love most about working education is that it's, it's all the industries combined in many ways. >>Very cool. So let's talk about some of the defense strategies from a practitioner point of view, then I want to bring in, in drew to the conversation. So what are the, the best practice and the right strategies from your standpoint of defending your, your data? >>Well, we take a defense and depth approach. So we layer multiple technologies on top of each other to make sure that no single failure is a key to getting beyond those defenses. We also keep it simple. You know, I think there's some core things that all organizations need to do these days in including, you know, vulnerability scanning, patching using multifactor authentication and having really excellent backups in case something does happen. >>Drew, are you seeing any similar patterns across other industries or customers? I mean, I know we're talking about some uniqueness in the education market, but what, what, what can we learn from other adjacent industries? >>Yeah, I, you know, Kevin is spot on and I love hearing what, what he's doing going back to our prior conversation about zero trust, right? That defense in depth approach is beautifully aligned, right? With a zero trust approach, especially things like multifactor authentication, always shocked at how few folks are applying that very, very simple technology and, and across the board, right? I mean, Kevin is referring to, you know, financial industry, healthcare industry, even, you know, the security and police, right. They need to make sure that the data that they're keeping evidence right. Is secure and imutable right, because that's evidence, >>Well, Kevin paint a picture for us, if you would. So you were primarily on, Preem looking at potentially, you know, using more cloud, you were a VMware shop, but tell us, paint a picture of your environment, kind of the applications that you support and, and the kind of, I wanna get to the before and the, after wasabi, but start with kind of where you came from. >>Sure. Well, I came to the hatchet school about seven years ago and I had come most recently from public K12 and municipal. So again, not a lot of funding for it in general security or infrastructure in general. So Nutanix was actually a solu, a hyperconverged solution that I implemented at my previous position. So when I came to Hodges and found mostly on-prem workloads, everything from the student information system to the card access system, that students would use financial systems, they were almost all on premise, but there were some new SAS solutions coming in play. We had also taken some time to do some business continuity planning, you know, in the event of some kind of issue. I don't think we were thinking about the pandemic at the time, but certainly it helped prepare us for that. So as different workloads were moved off to hosted or cloud based, we didn't really need as much of the on premise compute and storage as, as we had. And it was time to retire that cluster. And so I brought the experience I had with Nutanix with me, and we consolidated all that into a, a hyper-converged platform, running Nutanix AV, which allowed us to get rid of all the cost of the VMware licensing as well. And it is an easier platform to manage, especially for small it shops like ours. >>Yeah. AHV is the Acropolis hypervisor. And so you migrated off of VMware avoidance V the VTax avoidance. That's a common theme among Nu Nutanix customers. And now did you consider moving into AWS? You know, what was the catalyst to consider wasabi as part of your defense strategy? >>We were looking at cloud storage options and they were just all so expensive, especially in egress fees to get data back out, WASA became across our, our desks. And it was such a low, low barrier to entry to sign up for a trial and get, you know, terabyte for a month. And then it was, you know, $6 a month for terabyte. After that, I said, we can try this out in a very low stakes way to see how this works for us. And there was a couple things we were trying to solve at the time. It wasn't just a place to put backup, but we also needed a place to have some files that might serve to some degree as a content delivery network. Some of our software applications that are deployed through our mobile device management needed a place that was accessible on, on the internet that they could be stored as well. >>So we were testing it for a couple different scenarios and it worked great, you know, performance wise, fast security wise. It has all the features of, of S3 compliance that works with, with Nutanix and anyone who's familiar with S3 permissions can apply them very easily. And then there was no egress fees. We can pull data down, put data up at will, and it's not costing us any extra, which is excellent because especially in education, we need fixed costs. We need to know what we're gonna spend over a year before we spend it and not be hit with, you know, bills for, for egres or, or because our workload or our data storage footprint grew tremendously. We need, we need that. We, we can't have the variability that the cloud providers would give us. >>So Kevin, you, you explained you're hypersensitive about security and privacy for obvious reasons that we discussed. Were you concerned about doing business with a company with a funny name? Was it the trial that got you through that knothole? How did you address those, those concerns as an it practitioner? >>Yeah, anytime we adopt anything, we go through a risk review. So we did our homework and we checked the funny name really means nothing. There's lots of companies with funny names. >>I think we don't go based on the name necessarily, but we did go based on the history understanding, you know, who started the company, where it came from and really looking into the technology, understanding that the value proposition, the ability to, to provide that lower cost is based specifically on the technology, in which it lays down data. So, so having a legitimate, reasonable, you know, excuse as to why it's cheap, we weren't thinking, well, you know, you get what you pay for it. It may be less expensive than alternatives, but it's, it's not cheap. It's not, you know, it's, it's reliable. And that was really our concern. So we, we did our homework for sure before even starting the trial, but then the trial certainly confirmed everything that we had learned. >>Yeah. Thank you for that. Drew explain the whole egres charge. We hear a lot about that. What do people need to know? >>First of all, it's not a funny name, it's a memorable name, date, just like the cube. Let's be very clear about that. Second of all egres charges. So, you know, other storage providers charge you for every API call, right? Every get every, put every list, everything okay. It's, it's part of their, their, you know, their, their process. It's part of how they make money. It's part of how they cover the cost of all their other services. We don't do that. And I think, you know, as, as Kevin has pointed out, right, that's a huge differentiator because you're talking about a significant amount of money above and beyond. What is the list price? In fact, I would tell you that most of the other storage providers, hyperscalers, you know, their list price, first of all, is, is, you know, far exceeding anything else in the industry, especially what we offer and then right. Their, their additional cost, the egres cost, the API requests can be two, three, 400% more on top of what you're paying per terabyte. >>So you used the little coffee analogy earlier in our conversation. So I'm, here's what I'm imagining. Like I have a lot of stuff. Right. And, and I, I, I had to clear up my bar and I put some stuff in storage, you know, right down the street and I pay them monthly. I can't imagine having to pay them to go get my stuff. That's kinda the same thing here. >>Oh, that's a great metaphor, right. That, that storage locker, right? Yeah. You know, can you imagine every time you wanna open the door to that locker and look inside having to pay a fee? >>No, no, that would be annoying. >>Or, or every time you pull into the yard and you want to put something in that storage locker, you have to pay an access fee to get to the yard. You have to pay a door opening fee. Right. And then if you wanna look and get an inventory of everything in there, you have to pay and it's ridiculous. Yeah. It's your data, it's your storage, it's your locker. You've already paid the annual fee probably cuz that they gave you a discount on that. So why shouldn't you have unfettered access to your data? That's what wasabi does. And I think as Kevin pointed out, right, that's what sets us completely apart from everybody >>Else. Okay, good. That's helpful. It helps us understand how Wasabi's different. Kevin. I'm always interested when I talk to practitioners like yourself in, in, in learning what you do, you know, outside of the technology, what are you doing in terms of educating your community and making them more cyber aware? Do you have training for students and faculty to learn about security and, and ransomware protection? For example? >>Yes. Cyber security awareness training is definitely one of the required things everyone should be doing in their organizations. And we do have a program that we use and we try to make it fun and engaging too. Right? This is, this is often the checking, the box kind of activity. Insurance companies require it, but we wanna make it something that people want to do and wanna engage with. So even last year, I think we did one around the holidays and kind of pointed out the kinds of scams they may expect in their personal life about, you know, shipping of orders and time for the holidays and things like that. So it wasn't just about protecting our school data. It's about the fact that, you know, protecting their information is something you do in all aspects of your life. Especially now that the folks are working hybrid off of working from home with equipment from the school, this stakes are much higher and people have a lot of our data at home. And so knowing how to protect that is important. And so we definitely run, run those programs in a way that, that we want to be engaging and fun and memorable so that when they do encounter those things, especially email threats, they know how to handle them. >>So when you say fun, it's like you come up with an example that we can laugh at until of course we click on that bad link, but I'm sure you can, you can come up with a lot of interesting and engaging examples. Is that what you're talking about? About having fun? >>Yeah. I mean, sometimes they are kind of choose your own adventure type stories. You know, they, they, they, they stop as they run. So they're, they're, they're telling a story and they stop and you have to answer questions along the way to keep going. So you're not just watching a video, you're engaged with the story of the topic. Yeah. That's why I think is, is memorable about it, but it's also, that's what makes it fun. It's not, you're not just watching some talking head saying, you know, to avoid shortened URLs or to check, to make sure, you know, the sender of, of the email. Now you you're engaged in a real life scenario story that you're kind of following and making choices along the way and finding out was that the right choice to make or maybe not. So that's where I think the learning comes in. >>Excellent. Okay, gentlemen, thanks so much. Appreciate your time. Kevin drew awesome. Having you in the cube. >>My pleasure. Thank you. >>Yeah. Great to be here. Thanks. Okay. In a moment, I'll give you some closing thoughts on the changing world of data protection and the evolution of cloud object storage. You're watching the cube, the leader in high tech enterprise coverage.

>> The rapid rise of ransomware attacks has added yet another challenge that business technology executives have to worry about these days. Cloud storage, immutability and air gaps have become a must have arrows in the quiver of organization's data protection strategies. But the important reality that practitioners have embraced is data protection, it can't be an afterthought or a bolt on, it has to be designed into the operational workflow of technology systems. The problem is oftentimes data protection is complicated with a variety of different products, services, software components, and storage formats. This is why object storage is moving to the forefront of data protection use cases because it's simpler and less expensive. The put data get data syntax has always been alluring but object storage historically was seen as this low cost niche solution that couldn't offer the performance required for demanding workloads, forcing customers to make hard trade offs between cost and performance. That has changed. The ascendancy of cloud storage generally in the S3 format specifically has catapulted object storage to become a first class citizen in a mainstream technology. Moreover, innovative companies have invested to bring object storage performance to parody with other storage formats. But cloud costs are often a barrier for many companies as the monthly cloud bill and egress fees in particular steadily climb. Welcome to Secure Storage Hot Takes. My name is Dave Vellante and I'll be your host of the program today, where we introduce our community to Wasabi, a company that is purpose built to solve this specific problem with what it claims to be the most cost effective and secure solution on the market. We have three segments today to dig into these issues. First up is David Friend, the well known entrepreneur, who co-founded Carbonite and now Wasabi. We'll then dig into the product with Drew Schlussel of Wasabi. And then we'll bring in the customer perspective with Kevin Warenda of the Hotchkiss, cool. Let's get right into it. We're here with David Friend, the President and CEO, and co-founder of Wasabi, the hot storage company. David, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thanks, Dave. Nice to be here. >> Great to have you. So look, you hit a home run with Carbonite back when building a unicorn was a lot more rare than it has been in the last few years. Why did you start Wasabi? >> Well, when I was still CEO of Wasabi, my genius co-founder, Jeff Flowers, and our chief architect came to me and said, you know, when we started this company, a state of the art disc drive was probably 500 gigabytes. And now we're looking at eight terabyte, 16 terabyte, 20 terabyte, even hundred terabyte drives coming down the road. And, you know, sooner or later the old architectures that were designed around these much smaller disc drives is going to run out of steam, because even though the capacities are getting bigger and bigger, the speed with which you can get data on and off of a hard drive isn't really changing all that much. And Jeff foresaw a day when the architectures of sort of legacy storage like Amazon S3 and so forth, was going to become very inefficient and slow. And so he came up with a new highly parallelized architecture, and he said, I want to go off and see if I can make this work. So I said, you know, good luck go to it. And they went off and spent about a year and a half in the lab designing and testing this new storage architecture. And when they got it working, I looked at the economics of this and I said, holy cow, we could sell cloud storage for a fraction of the price of Amazon, still make very good gross margins and it will be faster. So this is a whole new generation of object storage that you guys have invented. So I recruited a new CEO for Carbonite and left to found Wasabi because the market for cloud storage is almost infinite, you know? When you look at all the world's data, you know, IDC has these crazy numbers, 120 zettabytes or something like that. And if you look at that as, you know, the potential market size during that data we're talking trillions of dollars, not billions. And so I said, look, this is a great opportunity. If you look back 10 years, all the world's data was on prem. If you look forward 10 years, most people agree that most of the world's data is going to live in the cloud. We're at the beginning of this migration, we've got an opportunity here to build an enormous company. >> That's very exciting. I mean, you've always been a trend spotter and I want to get your perspectives on data protection and how it's changed. It's obviously on people's minds with all the ransomware attacks and security breaches but thinking about your experiences and past observations, what's changed in data protection and what's driving the current very high interest in the topic? >> Well, I think, you know, from a data protection standpoint, immutability, the equivalent of the old worm tapes but applied to cloud storage is, you know, become core to the backup strategies and disaster recovery strategies for most companies. And if you look at our partners who make backup software like VEEAM, Commvault, Veritas, Arcserve, and so forth, most of them are really taking advantage of mutable cloud storage as a way to protect customer data, customers backups from ransomware. So the ransomware guys are pretty clever and they, you know, they discovered early on that if someone could do a full restore from their backups they're never going to pay a ransom. So once they penetrate your system, they get pretty good at sort of watching how you do your backups and before they encrypt your primary data, they figure out some way to destroy or encrypt your backups as well so that you can't do a full restore from your backups, and that's where immutability comes in. You know, in the old days you wrote what was called a worm tape, you know? Write once read many. And those could not be overwritten or modified once they were written. And so we said, let's come up with an equivalent of that for the cloud. And it's very tricky software, you know, it involves all kinds of encryption algorithms and blockchain and this kind of stuff. But, you know, the net result is, if you store your backups in immutable buckets in a product like Wasabi, you can't alter it or delete it for some period of time. So you could put a timer on it, say a year or six months or something like that. Once that date is written, you know, there's no way you can go in and change it, modify it or anything like that, including even Wasabi's engineers. >> So, David, I want to ask you about data sovereignty, it's obviously a big deal. I mean, especially for companies with a presence overseas but what's really is any digital business these days? How should companies think about approaching data sovereignty? Is it just large firms that should be worried about this? Or should everybody be concerned? What's your point of view? >> Well, all around the world countries are imposing data sovereignty laws. And if you're in the storage business, like we are, if you don't have physical data storage in country you're probably not going to get most of the business. You know, since Christmas we've built data centers in Toronto, London, Frankfurt, Paris, Sydney, Singapore and I've probably forgotten one or two. But the reason we do that is twofold. One is, you know, if you're closer to the customer, you're going to get better response time, lower latency and that's just a speed of light issue. But the bigger issue is, if you've got financial data, if you have healthcare data, if you have data relating to security, like surveillance videos and things of that sort, most countries are saying that data has to be stored in country, so you can't send it across borders to some other place. And if your business operates in multiple countries, you know, dealing with data sovereignty is going to become an increasingly important problem. >> So in may of 2018, that's when the fines associated with violating GDPR went into effect and GDPR was like this main spring of privacy and data protection laws. And we've seen it spawn other public policy things like the CCPA and it continues to evolve. We see judgements in Europe against big tech and this tech lash that's in the news in the US and the elimination of third party cookies. What does this all mean for data protection in the 2020s? >> Well, you know, every region and every country, you know, has their own idea about privacy, about security, about the use of, even the use of metadata surrounding, you know, customer data and things to this sort. So, you know, it's getting to be increasingly complicated because GDPR, for example, imposes different standards from the kind of privacy standards that we have here in the US. Canada has a somewhat different set of data sovereignty issues and privacy issues. So it's getting to be an increasingly complex, you know, mosaic of rules and regulations around the world. And this makes it even more difficult for enterprises to run their own, you know, infrastructure because companies like Wasabi where we have physical data centers in all kinds of different markets around the world. And we've already dealt with the business of how to meet the requirements of GDPR and how to meet the requirements of some of the countries in Asia, and so forth. You know, rather than an enterprise doing that just for themselves, if you running your applications or keeping your data in the cloud, you know, now a company like Wasabi with, you know, 34,000 customers, we can go to all the trouble of meeting these local requirements on behalf of our entire customer base. And that's a lot more efficient and a lot more cost effective than if each individual country has to go deal with the local regulatory authorities. >> Yeah. It's compliance by design, not by chance. Okay, let's zoom out for the final question, David. Thinking about the discussion that we've had around ransomware and data protection and regulations. What does it mean for a business's operational strategy and how do you think organizations will need to adapt in the coming years? >> Well, you know, I think there are a lot of forces driving companies to the cloud and, you know, and I do believe that if you come back five or 10 years from now, you're going to see majority of the world's data is going to be living in the cloud. And I think, storage, data storage is going to be a commodity much like electricity or bandwidth. And it's going to be done right, it will comply with the local regulations, it'll be fast, it'll be local. And there will be no strategic advantage that I can think of for somebody to stand up and run their own storage, especially considering the cost differential. You know, the most analysts think that the full all in costs of running your own storage is in the 20 to 40 terabytes per month range. Whereas, you know, if you migrate your data to the cloud like Wasabi, you're talking probably $6 a month. And so I think people are learning how to, are learning how to deal with the idea of an architecture that involves storing your data in the cloud, as opposed to, you know, storing your data locally. >> Wow. That's like a six X more expensive and the clouds more than six X. >> Yeah. >> All right, thank you, David. Go ahead, please. >> In addition to which, you know, just finding the people to babysit this kind of equipment has become nearly impossible today. >> Well, and with a focus on digital business you don't want to be wasting your time with that kind of heavy lifting. David, thanks so much for coming on theCUBE. Great Boston entrepreneur, we've followed your career for a long time and looking forward to the future. >> Thank you. >> Okay, in a moment, Drew Schlussel will join me and we're going to dig more into product. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in enterprise and emerging tech coverage. Keep it right there. (upbeat music)

>>mhm. Joining me now is Drew Schlussel, who is the senior director of product marketing at Wasabi. Hey, Drew. Good to see you again. Thanks for coming back in the Cube. >>They great to be here. Great to see you. >>All right, let's get into it. You know, Drew prior to the pandemic zero trust. Just like, kind of like a digital transformation. It was sort of a buzzword. And now it's become a real thing. Almost a mandate. What's what's Arby's take on zero trust? >>Uh, so absolutely right it was. It's been around a while, and now people are paying attention. Uh, sabes take is zero. Trust is is a good thing. Uh, you know, there are There are too many places right where the bad guys are getting in. And, you know, I think of zero. Trust is as kind of smashing laziness, right? It takes a little work, takes some planning, but, you know, done properly and using the right technology is using the right vendors. The rewards are of course, tremendous. Right? You you you can put to rest the fears of of ransomware and having your systems compromised. >>Well, and we're going to talk about this. But there's a lot of process and thinking involved and, you know, design in your zero trust. And you don't want to be wasting time messing with infrastructure. So we're gonna talk about that. There's a lot of discussion in the industry drew about a mutability and air gaps. I'd like you to share wasabi point of view on these topics. How do you approach it? And what makes wasabi different? >>Uh, so in terms of air gap and mutability, right, the beautiful thing about object storage, which is what we do all the time, is that it makes it that much easier. Right? To have a secure, immutable copy of your data someplace that's easy to access and, uh, doesn't cost you an arm and a leg to get your data back. Um, we're working with some of the best partners in the industry. Um, you know, we're working with folks like VM con vault Arc Marquis MSP 3. 60. Um, all folks who understand that you need to have multiple copies of your data. You need to have a copy stored offsite, and that copy needs to be immutable. And we can We can talk a little bit about what a mutability is and what it really means. >>You know, I want I wonder if you could talk a little bit more about with subi solution, because sometimes people don't understand. You actually are a cloud you're not building on other people's public clouds. And storage is the one use case where it actually makes sense to do that. Tell us a little bit more about those ABS approach and your solution. >>Yeah, I appreciate that. So there's there's definitely some misconception. We are our own cloud storage service. We don't run on top of anybody else, right? It's It's our systems. It's our software deployed globally, and we interoperate because we adhere to the S three standard. We interoperate with practically hundreds of applications, primarily in this case, right? We're talking about backup and recovery applications, and it's such a simple process, right? I mean, uh, just about everybody who's anybody in this business, protecting data has the ability now to, uh, access cloud storage. And so we've made it really simple. Uh, in many cases, you'll see wasabi, as you know, listed in the primary set of available vendors and, uh, you know, put in your private keys. Make sure that your account is locked down properly using, uh, let's say multi factor authentication, and you've got a great place to store copies of your data securely. >>I mean, we just heard from David friend. I did my math, right? He was talking about, you know, 1/6 the cost per terabyte per month, Maybe even a little better than that. How are you able to achieve such attractive economics? >>Yeah, So, you know, I can't remember how to translate my fractions into percentages, but I think we talk a lot about being 80% right, less expensive than the hyper scholars. And, you know, we talked about this at demon, right? There's there's some secret sauce there. Um, and, you know, we take a different approach to how we utilise the raw capacity to the effective capacity. And the fact is, we're also not having to run a few 100 other services, right? We do storage plain and simple all day, all the time, so we don't have to worry about overhead to support, you know, up and coming other services that are perhaps, uh, you know, going to be a loss leader right. Um, customers love it, right? They see the fact that their data is growing 40 80% year over year. They know they need to have some place to keep it secure. And, uh, you know, folks are flocking to us in droves. In fact, we're We're seeing a tremendous amount of migration, actually, right now, multiple petabytes being brought to Assad because folks have figured out that they can't afford to keep going with their current hyper scale or vendor. >>And the mutability is a feature of your product, right? What's the feature called? Can you dig? Double click on that a little bit? >>Yeah, Absolutely. Um So the determined s three is object lock. And what that means is your application will write an object to cloud storage, and it will define a retention period. Let's say a week. And for that period, that object is immutable. Untouchable cannot be altered in any way, shape or form. The application can't change it. The system administration can't change it with subi Can't change it. Okay, it is truly carved in stone, and this is something that it's been around for a while. But you're seeing a huge uptick in adoption and support for that feature by all the major vendors. And I named off a few earlier. Um, and the best part is that with the mutability comes some some sense of Well, it comes with not just a sense of security. It is security, right when you have data that cannot be altered by anybody. Um, even if the bad guys compromise your account, they steal your credentials, right? They can't take away the data. And that's a beautiful thing. A beautiful, beautiful thing. >>And you look like an s three bucket. Is that right? >>Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we're fully compatible with the S three a p I. So if you're using S three a p I based applications today, um, it's a very simple matter of just kind of redirecting where you want to store your data. Beautiful thing about backup and recovery, right? That's probably the simplest application. Simple being a relative term as far as lift and shift right, because that just means for your next full right point that it was subi retain your other falls for whatever 30 60 90 days. And then once you've kind of made that transition from vine divine. You know you're off and running with wasabi. >>I talked to my open about the allure of object storage. Historically, you know the simplicity of the get put syntax. But what about performance? Are you able to deliver performance? That's that's comparable to other storage formats. >>Oh, yeah, Absolutely. And we've got the We've got the performance numbers on the site to back that up. But I forgot to answer something earlier, Right? You said that the mutability is a feature, and I want to make it very clear that it is a feature, but it's an API request. Okay, So when you're talking about gets and puts and so forth, you know the comment you made earlier about being 80% more cost effectively, percent less expensive. Um, you know that API call, right? It's typically something that the other folks charge for, right? And I think we use the metaphor earlier about the refrigerator. Uh, but I'll use a different metaphor today, right? Uh, you can think of cloud storage as as a magical coffee cup, right? It gets as big as you want to store as much copy as you want. And the coffee is always warm right, And when you want to take a sip, there's no charge. You want to pop the lid and see how much coffee is in there. No charge. And that's an important thing. Because when you're talking about millions or billions of objects and you want to get a list of those objects or you want to get the status of the immutable settings for those objects anywhere else, it's going to cost you money to look at your data. We'll also be no additional charge, and that's part of the thing that sets us apart. >>Excellent. Thank you for that. So you mentioned some partners before. How do partners fit into the wasabi story? Where do you stop? Where do they pick up what you know, What do they bring? Can you give us maybe a paint a picture for us? Example or two? >>Sure. So again, we just do storage, right? That is our Our sole purpose in life is to, you know, to safely and securely store our customers' data. And so they're working with, uh, their application vendors. Whether it's, you know, active archive backup in recovery, uh, Iot surveillance, uh, media and entertainment workflows, right? Those systems already know how to manage the day to manage the metadata. They just need someplace to keep the data that is being worked on being stored and so forth. All right, so just like, uh, you know, plugging in a flash drive on your laptop, right? You literally can plug in wasabi as long as your applications support the AP getting started. Incredibly easy, right. We offer a 30 day trial, one terabyte, and most folks find that within, you know, probably a few hours of their P O. C. Right. Um, it's giving them everything they need in terms of performance, in terms of accessibility, in terms of sovereignty. I'm guessing you talked to, uh, you know, Dave friend earlier about data sovereignty, right. We're global company. All right, so there's got to be probably, you know, wherever you are in the world, someplace that will satisfy your sovereignty requirements, um, as well as your compliance requirements. >>We did talk about sovereignty, Drew. This is really what's interesting to me. A bit of an industry historian. When I look back to the early days of cloud, I remember the large storage companies, you know, they CEOs would say, We're going to have an answer for the cloud and they would go out. And for instance, I No. One bought competitor of carbonite and then couldn't figure out what to do with it. They couldn't figure out how to compete with the cloud, in part because they were afraid it was going to cannibalise their existing business. I think another part is because they just didn't have that imagination to develop an architecture that in a business model that could scale to see that you guys have done that is I love it because it brings competition. It brings innovation, and it helps lower clients cost and solve really nagging problems like, you know, uh, Ransomware, mutability and recovery. I'll give you the last word, Drew. >>Yeah, you're absolutely right. You know, the the on prem vendors. They're not going to go away anytime soon, right? There's always going to be a need for, you know, incredibly low latency high band with, you know, But, uh, you know, not all data is taught all the time. And by hot, I mean, you know, extremely hot. Uh, you know, uh, you know, let's take, uh, you know real time, Uh, analytics for maybe facial recognition, right, That requires sub millisecond type of processing. But once you've done that work right, you want to store that data for a long, long time, and, uh, you're gonna want to also tap back into it later. So, you know, other folks are telling you that, you know, you can go to these like cold, glacial type of tiered storage. Don't believe the hype. You're still going to pay way more for that than you would with just a wasabi like hot cloud storage system. And, you know, we don't compete with our partners, right? We complement you know what they're bringing to market in terms of the software vendors in terms of the hardware vendors were beautiful component for that hybrid cloud architecture. And I think folks are gravitating towards that. I think the cloud is kind of hitting a new gear, if you will, in terms of adoption and recognition for the security that they can achieve with it. >>All right, Drew, Thank you for that. We definitely We see the momentum in a moment. Drew and I will be back to get the customer perspective with Kevin Referenda, who's the director of information technology services at the Hodgkiss School. Keep it right there. >>Mhm

>> The rapid rise of ransomware attacks has added yet another challenge that business technology executives have to worry about these days, cloud storage, immutability, and air gaps have become a must have arrows in the quiver of organization's data protection strategies. But the important reality that practitioners have embraced is data protection, it can't be an afterthought or a bolt on it, has to be designed into the operational workflow of technology systems. The problem is, oftentimes, data protection is complicated with a variety of different products, services, software components, and storage formats, this is why object storage is moving to the forefront of data protection use cases because it's simpler and less expensive. The put data get data syntax has always been alluring, but object storage, historically, was seen as this low-cost niche solution that couldn't offer the performance required for demanding workloads, forcing customers to make hard tradeoffs between cost and performance. That has changed, the ascendancy of cloud storage generally in the S3 format specifically has catapulted object storage to become a first class citizen in a mainstream technology. Moreover, innovative companies have invested to bring object storage performance to parity with other storage formats, but cloud costs are often a barrier for many companies as the monthly cloud bill and egress fees in particular steadily climb. Welcome to Secure Storage Hot Takes, my name is Dave Vellante, and I'll be your host of the program today, where we introduce our community to Wasabi, a company that is purpose-built to solve this specific problem with what it claims to be the most cost effective and secure solution on the market. We have three segments today to dig into these issues, first up is David Friend, the well known entrepreneur who co-founded Carbonite and now Wasabi will then dig into the product with Drew Schlussel of Wasabi, and then we'll bring in the customer perspective with Kevin Warenda of the Hotchkiss School, let's get right into it. We're here with David Friend, the President and CEO and Co-founder of Wasabi, the hot storage company, David, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thanks Dave, nice to be here. >> Great to have you, so look, you hit a home run with Carbonite back when building a unicorn was a lot more rare than it has been in the last few years, why did you start Wasabi? >> Well, when I was still CEO of Wasabi, my genius co-founder Jeff Flowers and our chief architect came to me and said, you know, when we started this company, a state of the art disk drive was probably 500 gigabytes and now we're looking at eight terabyte, 16 terabyte, 20 terabyte, even 100 terabyte drives coming down the road and, you know, sooner or later the old architectures that were designed around these much smaller disk drives is going to run out of steam because, even though the capacities are getting bigger and bigger, the speed with which you can get data on and off of a hard drive isn't really changing all that much. And Jeff foresaw a day when the architectures sort of legacy storage like Amazon S3 and so forth was going to become very inefficient and slow. And so he came up with a new, highly parallelized architecture, and he said, I want to go off and see if I can make this work. So I said, you know, good luck go to it and they went off and spent about a year and a half in the lab, designing and testing this new storage architecture and when they got it working, I looked at the economics of this and I said, holy cow, we can sell cloud storage for a fraction of the price of Amazon, still make very good gross margins and it will be faster. So this is a whole new generation of object storage that you guys have invented. So I recruited a new CEO for Carbonite and left to found Wasabi because the market for cloud storage is almost infinite. You know, when you look at all the world's data, you know, IDC has these crazy numbers, 120 zetabytes or something like that and if you look at that as you know, the potential market size during that data, we're talking trillions of dollars, not billions and so I said, look, this is a great opportunity, if you look back 10 years, all the world's data was on-prem, if you look forward 10 years, most people agree that most of the world's data is going to live in the cloud, we're at the beginning of this migration, we've got an opportunity here to build an enormous company. >> That's very exciting. I mean, you've always been a trend spotter, and I want to get your perspectives on data protection and how it's changed. It's obviously on people's minds with all the ransomware attacks and security breaches, but thinking about your experiences and past observations, what's changed in data protection and what's driving the current very high interest in the topic? >> Well, I think, you know, from a data protection standpoint, immutability, the equivalent of the old worm tapes, but applied to cloud storage is, you know, become core to the backup strategies and disaster recovery strategies for most companies. And if you look at our partners who make backup software like Veeam, Convo, Veritas, Arcserve, and so forth, most of them are really taking advantage of mutable cloud storage as a way to protect customer data, customers backups from ransomware. So the ransomware guys are pretty clever and they, you know, they discovered early on that if someone could do a full restore from their backups, they're never going to pay a ransom. So, once they penetrate your system, they get pretty good at sort of watching how you do your backups and before they encrypt your primary data, they figure out some way to destroy or encrypt your backups as well, so that you can't do a full restore from your backups. And that's where immutability comes in. You know, in the old days you, you wrote what was called a worm tape, you know, write once read many, and those could not be overwritten or modified once they were written. And so we said, let's come up with an equivalent of that for the cloud, and it's very tricky software, you know, it involves all kinds of encryption algorithms and blockchain and this kind of stuff but, you know, the net result is if you store your backups in immutable buckets, in a product like Wasabi, you can't alter it or delete it for some period of time, so you could put a timer on it, say a year or six months or something like that, once that data is written, you know, there's no way you can go in and change it, modify it, or anything like that, including even Wasabi's engineers. >> So, David, I want to ask you about data sovereignty. It's obviously a big deal, I mean, especially for companies with the presence overseas, but what's really is any digital business these days, how should companies think about approaching data sovereignty? Is it just large firms that should be worried about this? Or should everybody be concerned? What's your point of view? >> Well, all around the world countries are imposing data sovereignty laws and if you're in the storage business, like we are, if you don't have physical data storage in-country, you're probably not going to get most of the business. You know, since Christmas we've built data centers in Toronto, London, Frankfurt, Paris, Sydney, Singapore, and I've probably forgotten one or two, but the reason we do that is twofold; one is, you know, if you're closer to the customer, you're going to get better response time, lower latency, and that's just a speed of light issue. But the bigger issue is, if you've got financial data, if you have healthcare data, if you have data relating to security, like surveillance videos, and things of that sort, most countries are saying that data has to be stored in-country, so, you can't send it across borders to some other place. And if your business operates in multiple countries, you know, dealing with data sovereignty is going to become an increasingly important problem. >> So in May of 2018, that's when the fines associated with violating GDPR went into effect and GDPR was like this main spring of privacy and data protection laws and we've seen it spawn other public policy things like the CCPA and think it continues to evolve, we see judgments in Europe against big tech and this tech lash that's in the news in the U.S. and the elimination of third party cookies, what does this all mean for data protection in the 2020s? >> Well, you know, every region and every country, you know, has their own idea about privacy, about security, about the use of even the use of metadata surrounding, you know, customer data and things of this sort. So, you know, it's getting to be increasingly complicated because GDPR, for example, imposes different standards from the kind of privacy standards that we have here in the U.S., Canada has a somewhat different set of data sovereignty issues and privacy issues so it's getting to be an increasingly complex, you know, mosaic of rules and regulations around the world and this makes it even more difficult for enterprises to run their own, you know, infrastructure because companies like Wasabi, where we have physical data centers in all kinds of different markets around the world and we've already dealt with the business of how to meet the requirements of GDPR and how to meet the requirements of some of the countries in Asia and so forth, you know, rather than an enterprise doing that just for themselves, if you running your applications or keeping your data in the cloud, you know, now a company like Wasabi with, you know, 34,000 customers, we can go to all the trouble of meeting these local requirements on behalf of our entire customer base and that's a lot more efficient and a lot more cost effective than if each individual country has to go deal with the local regulatory authorities. >> Yeah, it's compliance by design, not by chance. Okay, let's zoom out for the final question, David, thinking about the discussion that we've had around ransomware and data protection and regulations, what does it mean for a business's operational strategy and how do you think organizations will need to adapt in the coming years? >> Well, you know, I think there are a lot of forces driving companies to the cloud and, you know, and I do believe that if you come back five or 10 years from now, you're going to see majority of the world's data is going to be living in the cloud and I think storage, data storage is going to be a commodity much like electricity or bandwidth, and it's going to be done right, it will comply with the local regulations, it'll be fast, it'll be local, and there will be no strategic advantage that I can think of for somebody to stand up and run their own storage, especially considering the cost differential, you know, the most analysts think that the full, all in costs of running your own storage is in the 20 to 40 terabytes per month range, whereas, you know, if you migrate your data to the cloud, like Wasabi, you're talking probably $6 a month and so I think people are learning how to deal with the idea of an architecture that involves storing your data in the cloud, as opposed to, you know, storing your data locally. >> Wow, that's like a six X more expensive in the clouds, more than six X, all right, thank you, David,-- >> In addition to which, you know, just finding the people to babysit this kind of equipment has become nearly impossible today. >> Well, and with a focus on digital business, you don't want to be wasting your time with that kind of heavy lifting. David, thanks so much for coming in theCUBE, a great Boston entrepreneur, we've followed your career for a long time and looking forward to the future. >> Thank you. >> Okay, in a moment, Drew Schlussel will join me and we're going to dig more into product, you're watching theCUBE, the leader in enterprise and emerging tech coverage, keep it right there. ♪ Whoa ♪ ♪ Brenda in sales got an email ♪ ♪ Click here for a trip to Bombay ♪ ♪ It's not even called Bombay anymore ♪ ♪ But you clicked it anyway ♪ ♪ And now our data's been held hostage ♪ ♪ And now we're on sinking ship ♪ ♪ And a hacker's in our system ♪ ♪ Just 'cause Brenda wanted a trip ♪ ♪ She clicked on something stupid ♪ ♪ And our data's out of our control ♪ ♪ Into the hands of a hacker's ♪ ♪ And he's a giant asshole. ♪ ♪ He encrypted it in his basement ♪ ♪ He wants a million bucks for the key ♪ ♪ And I'm pretty sure he's 15 ♪ ♪ And still going through puberty ♪ ♪ I know you didn't mean to do us wrong ♪ ♪ But now I'm dealing with this all week long ♪ ♪ To make you all aware ♪ ♪ Of all this ransomware ♪ ♪ That is why I'm singing you this song ♪ ♪ C'mon ♪ ♪ Take it from me ♪ ♪ The director of IT ♪ ♪ Don't click on that email from a prince Nairobi ♪ ♪ 'Cuz he's not really a prince ♪ ♪ Now our data's locked up on our screen ♪ ♪ Controlled by a kid who's just fifteen ♪ ♪ And he's using our money to buy a Ferrari ♪ (gentle music) >> Joining me now is Drew Schlussel, who is the Senior Director of Product Marketing at Wasabi, hey Drew, good to see you again, thanks for coming back in theCUBE. >> Dave, great to be here, great to see you. >> All right, let's get into it. You know, Drew, prior to the pandemic, Zero Trust, just like kind of like digital transformation was sort of a buzzword and now it's become a real thing, almost a mandate, what's Wasabi's take on Zero Trust. >> So, absolutely right, it's been around a while and now people are paying attention, Wasabi's take is Zero Trust is a good thing. You know, there are too many places, right, where the bad guys are getting in. And, you know, I think of Zero Trust as kind of smashing laziness, right? It takes a little work, it takes some planning, but you know, done properly and using the right technologies, using the right vendors, the rewards are, of course tremendous, right? You can put to rest the fears of ransomware and having your systems compromised. >> Well, and we're going to talk about this, but there's a lot of process and thinking involved and, you know, design and your Zero Trust and you don't want to be wasting time messing with infrastructure, so we're going to talk about that, there's a lot of discussion in the industry, Drew, about immutability and air gaps, I'd like you to share Wasabi's point of view on these topics, how do you approach it and what makes Wasabi different? >> So, in terms of air gap and immutability, right, the beautiful thing about object storage, which is what we do all the time is that it makes it that much easier, right, to have a secure immutable copy of your data someplace that's easy to access and doesn't cost you an arm and a leg to get your data back. You know, we're working with some of the best, you know, partners in the industry, you know, we're working with folks like, you know, Veeam, Commvault, Arc, Marquee, MSP360, all folks who understand that you need to have multiple copies of your data, you need to have a copy stored offsite, and that copy needs to be immutable and we can talk a little bit about what immutability is and what it really means. >> You know, I wonder if you could talk a little bit more about Wasabi's solution because, sometimes people don't understand, you actually are a cloud, you're not building on other people's public clouds and this storage is the one use case where it actually makes sense to do that, tell us a little bit more about Wasabi's approach and your solution. >> Yeah, I appreciate that, so there's definitely some misconception, we are our own cloud storage service, we don't run on top of anybody else, right, it's our systems, it's our software deployed globally and we interoperate because we adhere to the S3 standard, we interoperate with practically hundreds of applications, primarily in this case, right, we're talking about backup and recovery applications and it's such a simple process, right? I mean, just about everybody who's anybody in this business protecting data has the ability now to access cloud storage and so we've made it really simple, in many cases, you'll see Wasabi as you know, listed in the primary set of available vendors and, you know, put in your private keys, make sure that your account is locked down properly using, let's say multifactor authentication, and you've got a great place to store copies of your data securely. >> I mean, we just heard from David Friend, if I did my math right, he was talking about, you know, 1/6 the cost per terabyte per month, maybe even a little better than that, how are you able to achieve such attractive economics? >> Yeah, so, you know, I can't remember how to translate my fractions into percentages, but I think we talk a lot about being 80%, right, less expensive than the hyperscalers. And you know, we talked about this at Vermont, right? There's some secret sauce there and you know, we take a different approach to how we utilize the raw capacity to the effective capacity and the fact is we're also not having to run, you know, a few hundred other services, right? We do storage, plain and simple, all day, all the time, so we don't have to worry about overhead to support, you know, up and coming other services that are perhaps, you know, going to be a loss leader, right? Customers love it, right, they see the fact that their data is growing 40, 80% year over year, they know they need to have some place to keep it secure, and, you know, folks are flocking to us in droves, in fact, we're seeing a tremendous amount of migration actually right now, multiple petabytes being brought to Wasabi because folks have figured out that they can't afford to keep going with their current hyperscaler vendor. >> And immutability is a feature of your product, right? What the feature called? Can you double-click on that a little bit? >> Yeah, absolutely. So, the term in S3 is Object Lock and what that means is your application will write an object to cloud storage, and it will define a retention period, let's say a week. And for that period, that object is immutable, untouchable, cannot be altered in any way, shape, or form, the application can't change it, the system administration can't change it, Wasabi can't change it, okay, it is truly carved in stone. And this is something that it's been around for a while, but you're seeing a huge uptick, right, in adoption and support for that feature by all the major vendors and I named off a few earlier and the best part is that with immutability comes some sense of, well, it comes with not just a sense of security, it is security. Right, when you have data that cannot be altered by anybody, even if the bad guys compromise your account, they steal your credentials, right, they can't take away the data and that's a beautiful thing, a beautiful, beautiful thing. >> And you look like an S3 bucket, is that right? >> Yeah, I mean, we're fully compatible with the S3 API, so if you're using S3 API based applications today, it's a very simple matter of just kind of redirecting where you want to store your data, beautiful thing about backup and recovery, right, that's probably the simplest application, simple being a relative term, as far as lift and shift, right? Because that just means for your next full, right, point that at Wasabi, retain your other fulls, you know, for whatever 30, 60, 90 days, and then once you've kind of made that transition from vine to vine, you know, you're often running with Wasabi. >> I talked to my open about the allure of object storage historically, you know, the simplicity of the get put syntax, but what about performance? Are you able to deliver performance that's comparable to other storage formats? >> Oh yeah, absolutely, and we've got the performance numbers on the site to back that up, but I forgot to answer something earlier, right, you said that immutability is a feature and I want to make it very clear that it is a feature but it's an API request. Okay, so when you're talking about gets and puts and so forth, you know, the comment you made earlier about being 80% more cost effective or 80% less expensive, you know, that API call, right, is typically something that the other folks charge for, right, and I think we used the metaphor earlier about the refrigerator, but I'll use a different metaphor today, right? You can think of cloud storage as a magical coffee cup, right? It gets as big as you want to store as much coffee as you want and the coffee's always warm, right? And when you want to take a sip, there's no charge, you want to, you know, pop the lid and see how much coffee is in there, no charge, and that's an important thing, because when you're talking about millions or billions of objects, and you want to get a list of those objects, or you want to get the status of the immutable settings for those objects, anywhere else it's going to cost you money to look at your data, with Wasabi, no additional charge and that's part of the thing that sets us apart. >> Excellent, so thank you for that. So, you mentioned some partners before, how do partners fit into the Wasabi story? Where do you stop? Where do they pick up? You know, what do they bring? Can you give us maybe, a paint a picture for us example, or two? >> Sure, so, again, we just do storage, right, that is our sole purpose in life is to, you know, to safely and securely store our customer's data. And so they're working with their application vendors, whether it's, you know, active archive, backup and recovery, IOT, surveillance, media and entertainment workflows, right, those systems already know how to manage the data, manage the metadata, they just need some place to keep the data that is being worked on, being stored and so forth. Right, so just like, you know, plugging in a flash drive on your laptop, right, you literally can plug in Wasabi as long as your applications support the API, getting started is incredibly easy, right, we offer a 30-day trial, one terabyte, and most folks find that within, you know, probably a few hours of their POC, right, it's giving them everything they need in terms of performance, in terms of accessibility, in terms of sovereignty, I'm guessing you talked to, you know, Dave Friend earlier about data sovereignty, right? We're global company, right, so there's got to be probably, you know, wherever you are in the world some place that will satisfy your sovereignty requirements, as well as your compliance requirements. >> Yeah, we did talk about sovereignty, Drew, this is really, what's interesting to me, I'm a bit of a industry historian, when I look back to the early days of cloud, I remember the large storage companies, you know, their CEOs would say, we're going to have an answer for the cloud and they would go out, and for instance, I know one bought competitor of Carbonite, and then couldn't figure out what to do with it, they couldn't figure out how to compete with the cloud in part, because they were afraid it was going to cannibalize their existing business, I think another part is because they just didn't have that imagination to develop an architecture that in a business model that could scale to see that you guys have done that is I love it because it brings competition, it brings innovation and it helps lower clients cost and solve really nagging problems. Like, you know, ransomware, of mutability and recovery, I'll give you the last word, Drew. >> Yeah, you're absolutely right. You know, the on-prem vendors, they're not going to go away anytime soon, right, there's always going to be a need for, you know, incredibly low latency, high bandwidth, you know, but, you know, not all data's hot all the time and by hot, I mean, you know, extremely hot, you know, let's take, you know, real time analytics for, maybe facial recognition, right, that requires sub-millisecond type of processing. But once you've done that work, right, you want to store that data for a long, long time, and you're going to want to also tap back into it later, so, you know, other folks are telling you that, you know, you can go to these like, you know, cold glacial type of tiered storage, yeah, don't believe the hype, you're still going to pay way more for that than you would with just a Wasabi-like hot cloud storage system. And, you know, we don't compete with our partners, right? We compliment, you know, what they're bringing to market in terms of the software vendors, in terms of the hardware vendors, right, we're a beautiful component for that hybrid cloud architecture. And I think folks are gravitating towards that, I think the cloud is kind of hitting a new gear if you will, in terms of adoption and recognition for the security that they can achieve with it. >> All right, Drew, thank you for that, definitely we see the momentum, in a moment, Drew and I will be back to get the customer perspective with Kevin Warenda, who's the Director of Information technology services at The Hotchkiss School, keep it right there. >> Hey, I'm Nate, and we wrote this song about ransomware to educate people, people like Brenda. >> Oh, God, I'm so sorry. We know you are, but Brenda, you're not alone, this hasn't just happened to you. >> No! ♪ Colonial Oil Pipeline had a guy ♪ ♪ who didn't change his password ♪ ♪ That sucks ♪ ♪ His password leaked, the data was breached ♪ ♪ And it cost his company 4 million bucks ♪ ♪ A fake update was sent to people ♪ ♪ Working for the meat company JBS ♪ ♪ That's pretty clever ♪ ♪ Instead of getting new features, they got hacked ♪ ♪ And had to pay the largest crypto ransom ever ♪ ♪ And 20 billion dollars, billion with a b ♪ ♪ Have been paid by companies in healthcare ♪ ♪ If you wonder buy your premium keeps going ♪ ♪ Up, up, up, up, up ♪ ♪ Now you're aware ♪ ♪ And now the hackers they are gettin' cocky ♪ ♪ When they lock your data ♪ ♪ You know, it has gotten so bad ♪ ♪ That they demand all of your money and it gets worse ♪ ♪ They go and the trouble with the Facebook ad ♪ ♪ Next time, something seems too good to be true ♪ ♪ Like a free trip to Asia! ♪ ♪ Just check first and I'll help before you ♪ ♪ Think before you click ♪ ♪ Don't get fooled by this ♪ ♪ Who isn't old enough to drive to school ♪ ♪ Take it from me, the director of IT ♪ ♪ Don't click on that email from a prince in Nairobi ♪ ♪ Because he's not really a prince ♪ ♪ Now our data's locked up on our screen ♪ ♪ Controlled by a kid who's just fifteen ♪ ♪ And he's using our money to buy a Ferrari ♪ >> It's a pretty sweet car. ♪ A kid without facial hair, who lives with his mom ♪ ♪ To learn more about this go to wasabi.com ♪ >> Hey, don't do that. ♪ Cause if we had Wasabi's immutability ♪ >> You going to ruin this for me! ♪ This fifteen-year-old wouldn't have on me ♪ (gentle music) >> Drew and I are pleased to welcome Kevin Warenda, who's the Director of Information Technology Services at The Hotchkiss School, a very prestigious and well respected boarding school in the beautiful Northwest corner of Connecticut, hello, Kevin. >> Hello, it's nice to be here, thanks for having me. >> Yeah, you bet. Hey, tell us a little bit more about The Hotchkiss School and your role. >> Sure, The Hotchkiss School is an independent boarding school, grades nine through 12, as you said, very prestigious and in an absolutely beautiful location on the deepest freshwater lake in Connecticut, we have 500 acre main campus and a 200 acre farm down the street. My role as the Director of Information Technology Services, essentially to oversee all of the technology that supports the school operations, academics, sports, everything we do on campus. >> Yeah, and you've had a very strong history in the educational field, you know, from that lens, what's the unique, you know, or if not unique, but the pressing security challenge that's top of mind for you? >> I think that it's clear that educational institutions are a target these days, especially for ransomware. We have a lot of data that can be used by threat actors and schools are often underfunded in the area of IT security, IT in general sometimes, so, I think threat actors often see us as easy targets or at least worthwhile to try to get into. >> Because specifically you are potentially spread thin, underfunded, you got students, you got teachers, so there really are some, are there any specific data privacy concerns as well around student privacy or regulations that you can speak to? >> Certainly, because of the fact that we're an independent boarding school, we operate things like even a health center, so, data privacy regulations across the board in terms of just student data rights and FERPA, some of our students are under 18, so, data privacy laws such as COPPA apply, HIPAA can apply, we have PCI regulations with many of our financial transactions, whether it be fundraising through alumni development, or even just accepting the revenue for tuition so, it's a unique place to be, again, we operate very much like a college would, right, we have all the trappings of a private college in terms of all the operations we do and that's what I love most about working in education is that it's all the industries combined in many ways. >> Very cool. So let's talk about some of the defense strategies from a practitioner point of view, then I want to bring in Drew to the conversation so what are the best practice and the right strategies from your standpoint of defending your data? >> Well, we take a defense in-depth approach, so we layer multiple technologies on top of each other to make sure that no single failure is a key to getting beyond those defenses, we also keep it simple, you know, I think there's some core things that all organizations need to do these days in including, you know, vulnerability scanning, patching , using multifactor authentication, and having really excellent backups in case something does happen. >> Drew, are you seeing any similar patterns across other industries or customers? I mean, I know we're talking about some uniqueness in the education market, but what can we learn from other adjacent industries? >> Yeah, you know, Kevin is spot on and I love hearing what he's doing, going back to our prior conversation about Zero Trust, right, that defense in-depth approach is beautifully aligned, right, with the Zero Trust approach, especially things like multifactor authentication, always shocked at how few folks are applying that very, very simple technology and across the board, right? I mean, Kevin is referring to, you know, financial industry, healthcare industry, even, you know, the security and police, right, they need to make sure that the data that they're keeping, evidence, right, is secure and immutable, right, because that's evidence. >> Well, Kevin, paint a picture for us, if you would. So, you were primarily on-prem looking at potentially, you know, using more cloud, you were a VMware shop, but tell us, paint a picture of your environment, kind of the applications that you support and the kind of, I want to get to the before and the after Wasabi, but start with kind of where you came from. >> Sure, well, I came to The Hotchkiss School about seven years ago and I had come most recently from public K12 and municipal, so again, not a lot of funding for IT in general, security, or infrastructure in general, so Nutanix was actually a hyperconverged solution that I implemented at my previous position. So when I came to Hotchkiss and found mostly on-prem workloads, everything from the student information system to the card access system that students would use, financial systems, they were almost all on premise, but there were some new SaaS solutions coming in play, we had also taken some time to do some business continuity, planning, you know, in the event of some kind of issue, I don't think we were thinking about the pandemic at the time, but certainly it helped prepare us for that, so, as different workloads were moved off to hosted or cloud-based, we didn't really need as much of the on-premise compute and storage as we had, and it was time to retire that cluster. And so I brought the experience I had with Nutanix with me, and we consolidated all that into a hyper-converged platform, running Nutanix AHV, which allowed us to get rid of all the cost of the VMware licensing as well and it is an easier platform to manage, especially for small IT shops like ours. >> Yeah, AHV is the Acropolis hypervisor and so you migrated off of VMware avoiding the VTax avoidance, that's a common theme among Nutanix customers and now, did you consider moving into AWS? You know, what was the catalyst to consider Wasabi as part of your defense strategy? >> We were looking at cloud storage options and they were just all so expensive, especially in egress fees to get data back out, Wasabi became across our desks and it was such a low barrier to entry to sign up for a trial and get, you know, terabyte for a month and then it was, you know, $6 a month for terabyte. After that, I said, we can try this out in a very low stakes way to see how this works for us. And there was a couple things we were trying to solve at the time, it wasn't just a place to put backup, but we also needed a place to have some files that might serve to some degree as a content delivery network, you know, some of our software applications that are deployed through our mobile device management needed a place that was accessible on the internet that they could be stored as well. So we were testing it for a couple different scenarios and it worked great, you know, performance wise, fast, security wise, it has all the features of S3 compliance that works with Nutanix and anyone who's familiar with S3 permissions can apply them very easily and then there was no egress fees, we can pull data down, put data up at will, and it's not costing as any extra, which is excellent because especially in education, we need fixed costs, we need to know what we're going to spend over a year before we spend it and not be hit with, you know, bills for egress or because our workload or our data storage footprint grew tremendously, we need that, we can't have the variability that the cloud providers would give us. >> So Kevin, you explained you're hypersensitive about security and privacy for obvious reasons that we discussed, were you concerned about doing business with a company with a funny name? Was it the trial that got you through that knothole? How did you address those concerns as an IT practitioner? >> Yeah, anytime we adopt anything, we go through a risk review. So we did our homework and we checked the funny name really means nothing, there's lots of companies with funny names, I think we don't go based on the name necessarily, but we did go based on the history, understanding, you know, who started the company, where it came from, and really looking into the technology and understanding that the value proposition, the ability to provide that lower cost is based specifically on the technology in which it lays down data. So, having a legitimate, reasonable, you know, excuse as to why it's cheap, we weren't thinking, well, you know, you get what you pay for, it may be less expensive than alternatives, but it's not cheap, you know, it's reliable, and that was really our concern. So we did our homework for sure before even starting the trial, but then the trial certainly confirmed everything that we had learned. >> Yeah, thank you for that. Drew, explain the whole egress charge, we hear a lot about that, what do people need to know? >> First of all, it's not a funny name, it's a memorable name, Dave, just like theCUBE, let's be very clear about that, second of all, egress charges, so, you know, other storage providers charge you for every API call, right? Every get, every put, every list, everything, okay, it's part of their process, it's part of how they make money, it's part of how they cover the cost of all their other services, we don't do that. And I think, you know, as Kevin has pointed out, right, that's a huge differentiator because you're talking about a significant amount of money above and beyond what is the list price. In fact, I would tell you that most of the other storage providers, hyperscalers, you know, their list price, first of all, is, you know, far exceeding anything else in the industry, especially what we offer and then, right, their additional cost, the egress costs, the API requests can be two, three, 400% more on top of what you're paying per terabyte. >> So, you used a little coffee analogy earlier in our conversation, so here's what I'm imagining, like I have a lot of stuff, right? And I had to clear up my bar and I put some stuff in storage, you know, right down the street and I pay them monthly, I can't imagine having to pay them to go get my stuff, that's kind of the same thing here. >> Oh, that's a great metaphor, right? That storage locker, right? You know, can you imagine every time you want to open the door to that storage locker and look inside having to pay a fee? >> No, that would be annoying. >> Or, every time you pull into the yard and you want to put something in that storage locker, you have to pay an access fee to get to the yard, you have to pay a door opening fee, right, and then if you want to look and get an inventory of everything in there, you have to pay, and it's ridiculous, it's your data, it's your storage, it's your locker, you've already paid the annual fee, probably, 'cause they gave you a discount on that, so why shouldn't you have unfettered access to your data? That's what Wasabi does and I think as Kevin pointed out, right, that's what sets us completely apart from everybody else. >> Okay, good, that's helpful, it helps us understand how Wasabi's different. Kevin, I'm always interested when I talk to practitioners like yourself in learning what you do, you know, outside of the technology, what are you doing in terms of educating your community and making them more cyber aware? Do you have training for students and faculty to learn about security and ransomware protection, for example? >> Yes, cyber security awareness training is definitely one of the required things everyone should be doing in their organizations. And we do have a program that we use and we try to make it fun and engaging too, right, this is often the checking the box kind of activity, insurance companies require it, but we want to make it something that people want to do and want to engage with so, even last year, I think we did one around the holidays and kind of pointed out the kinds of scams they may expect in their personal life about, you know, shipping of orders and time for the holidays and things like that, so it wasn't just about protecting our school data, it's about the fact that, you know, protecting their information is something do in all aspects of your life, especially now that the folks are working hybrid often working from home with equipment from the school, the stakes are much higher and people have a lot of our data at home and so knowing how to protect that is important, so we definitely run those programs in a way that we want to be engaging and fun and memorable so that when they do encounter those things, especially email threats, they know how to handle them. >> So when you say fun, it's like you come up with an example that we can laugh at until, of course, we click on that bad link, but I'm sure you can come up with a lot of interesting and engaging examples, is that what you're talking about, about having fun? >> Yeah, I mean, sometimes they are kind of choose your own adventure type stories, you know, they stop as they run, so they're telling a story and they stop and you have to answer questions along the way to keep going, so, you're not just watching a video, you're engaged with the story of the topic, yeah, and that's what I think is memorable about it, but it's also, that's what makes it fun, you're not just watching some talking head saying, you know, to avoid shortened URLs or to check, to make sure you know the sender of the email, no, you're engaged in a real life scenario story that you're kind of following and making choices along the way and finding out was that the right choice to make or maybe not? So, that's where I think the learning comes in. >> Excellent. Okay, gentlemen, thanks so much, appreciate your time, Kevin, Drew, awesome having you in theCUBE. >> My pleasure, thank you. >> Yeah, great to be here, thanks. >> Okay, in a moment, I'll give you some closing thoughts on the changing world of data protection and the evolution of cloud object storage, you're watching theCUBE, the leader in high tech enterprise coverage. >> Announcer: Some things just don't make sense, like showing up a little too early for the big game. >> How early are we? >> Couple months. Popcorn? >> Announcer: On and off season, the Red Sox cover their bases with affordable, best in class cloud storage. >> These are pretty good seats. >> Hey, have you guys seen the line from the bathroom? >> Announcer: Wasabi Hot Cloud Storage, it just makes sense. >> You don't think they make these in left hand, do you? >> We learned today how a serial entrepreneur, along with his co-founder saw the opportunity to tap into the virtually limitless scale of the cloud and dramatically reduce the cost of storing data while at the same time, protecting against ransomware attacks and other data exposures with simple, fast storage, immutability, air gaps, and solid operational processes, let's not forget about that, okay? People and processes are critical and if you can point your people at more strategic initiatives and tasks rather than wrestling with infrastructure, you can accelerate your process redesign and support of digital transformations. Now, if you want to learn more about immutability and Object Block, click on the Wasabi resource button on this page, or go to wasabi.com/objectblock. Thanks for watching Secure Storage Hot Takes made possible by Wasabi. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE, the leader in enterprise and emerging tech coverage, well, see you next time. (gentle upbeat music)

>>We learned today, how a serial entrepreneur, along with his co-founder saw the opportunity to tap into the virtually limitless scale of the cloud and dramatically reduce the cost of storing data while at the same time, protecting against ransomware attacks and other data exposures with simple, fast storage imutability air gaps and solid operational processes. Let's not forget about that. Okay. People and processes are critical. And if you can point your people at more strategic initiatives and tasks, rather than wrestling with infrastructure, you can accelerate your process redesign in support of digital transformations. Now, if you wanna learn more about imutability and object lock, click on the wasabi resource button on this page, or go to wasabi.com/object lock. Thanks for watching secure storage, hot takes made possible by wasabi. This is Dave ante for the cube, the leader in enterprise and emerging tech coverage. We'll see you next time.

>> from Bahrain. It's the Q recovery AWS public sector Bahrain, brought to you by Amazon Web service is >> hello and welcome to the cube coverage here for a W s summit in by rain in the Middle East. I'm John for the host of the Cube, where here's our second year covering the evolution of cloud computing in the region. Changing the landscape of entrepreneurship Government society actually, data is the new oil so excited to have our next guest, Abdula Elmo, I kill who's the co founder and partner at rain hot. Start up with some seed funding, I think has cracked the code on the crypto money making aspect of crypto currency. Welcome to the Cube. Thank you. Thank you. So let's get started. You guys have a small team, get some seed funding. Interesting strategy on crypt. Everyone. When I see oh, kind of a fraudulent markets international, we all come and watch in the I c e o u s cramping down on it. Ah, lot of entrepreneurs love this market. A lot of innovation. You guys had a different approach and do some very innovative taking me explain what rain is doing because you've cracked the code on Crypto to Fiat. That's right, which has been the legit use case for making this all this >> Absolutely so all of the founders, the four founders? Yeah, Badawi, A. J. Nelson, Joseph Lago and I We've been in this industry for quite a while. We've been here 56 years, and we've seen all the hype cycles come and go about sometimes about Blockchain technology itself sometimes about the i c e o craze. Uh, and we've really just bought came down to what is the bit viable business model? We all were all entrepreneurs and we had looking for a new opportunity. Does with a lot of people coming into this industry with those with any innovation, lots of opportunities arise. And we've looked at the world and the world had many exchanges that were the most successful businesses in this industry. The exchanges facilitating the trade that was the most interest. That was the highest demand. That was the real use case. And we found that, um, there were exchanges popping up from around the world, but they weren't here any in the in the Middle East yet, And perhaps it was due to a regulatory, uncertain see or other difficulties of coming into this market. But Bahrain really opened up for us and we met with the Central Bank of Bahrain about three or four years ago and things really got started from there. >> And being a marketplace, you gotta have a lot of, you know, governance. It's all a lot of regulatory pressures from the folks that started. People who watch the Cube know that we've been very bullish on Krypton. We love Blockchain as an underlying technology. Yeah, that's, um, sustainability issues around Bitcoin and others. We recognize that, but in general this is a wave that cannot be denied. The moneys flow, right? So money's flowing in Kryptos, you scripted a crypto. You guys have the Fiat piece of it. So this brings on the first kind of liquidity opportunity in crypto thio. Real money? >> Yeah, absolutely. So that's our main goal is we're serving both retail and institutions and we believe there's going to be a lot of traffic from the traditional finance world, from institutions and individual investors into the crypt, a world and the opposite as well. A lot of people had challenges with taking the profits out of exchanges and withdrawing them to their bank in a regulatory compliant way. And that's really what we're solving here for the lowest fees in the region. >> But rain, once the blubbering, was to be modern society. They're going all in on cloud computing. They want to be a cloud country. They're open to new ideas. What attracted you, these guys? What made them different as it was that their vision was their posture on oversight? What was some of the things that make makes it work here? >> Well, at first it was the reception The behind central bank had a fintech unit already in in 2000 I think set a release 2017. So that was great. I think other central banks around the region and the world we're just starting. Then there was the behind fintech beh ah, dedicated working space for fintech companies here. So the ecosystem and the reception was really what attracted us at the beginning, other than knowing that Bahrain was a good financial hub for quite some time for the region. So we joined the Bahrain, um, Central banks regulatory sandbox which allowed us to experiment and test whether we can do this in a safe and secure way. And about a year and 1/2 later, uh, central bank drafted the regulations. Four crypto asset exchanges, brokerages s. So now that the regulation have got drafted and published, we graduated from the sandbox. Thankfully, and we were allowed to apply for the license shortly after we applied. We we earned the license. Thankfully. >> So what's next? What's goes on now? You do a lot of get a lot of work, A lot of coding. Gotta make sure the fintech compliance a lot of hurdles there. Yeah, I can understand that. What's now next? Got the regulation place? Yep. You'd expand. What's the plan? >> Well, we announced the license and Ah, a tte the same time, we also announced closing our seed round. So with that, we were able to grow our team the past month from, um, 8 to 9 people to 15 to 17 people now, and just more and more joining on board every day and are really our focus is growth. Now we're out of the sandbox. We don't have the limitations of the sandbox we had before, and we have banking relationships already made with different Banks s. So now we're just trying to reach out for the market. So we have grown our customer support team growing our engineering team hiring and comply a compliance officer, um, and other growth aspect. Just moving forward, >> getting up the basics of the business. That's right. What's your target audience gonna be? The inside solutions at first retail. What's the target audience? It's >> really both. It depends on what the market is providing. We've see institutional demand that has always relied on. When we spoke with institutions, they always relied on getting the license first because they don't want to operate with anyone unlike since, which makes it ah, you know, really interesting, because that means they haven't been able to get into the digital asset of crypto asset world the past few years while it's going up and down. So we we see ah, 50 50 divide most likely and what's going to be similar ratio than the rest of the world. But right now it's a lot of retail. Customers >> feel great to get your perspective here. It's even in the space. For a while, we saw the fire hype cycle go up, then the wet blanket Crypto Winter hit? Yeah, in the United States. Certainly it put a clamp down on most I CEOs. The SEC is right looking at a bunch of stars behavior, you know, Pretty Wild West is they call it, but an internationally still been pretty active even in the crypt A winter Go back, say 2018 Go back Last year on March it kind of stopped, got cold and then frosted over. Now it's been a block of ice. If you descript a winter, what's your take on it? What's the vibe? Internationally, I'll see Still money still flowing Bitcoins over 10,000 I think this morning, but still a lot of activity. Yes, some tokens have fallen away. Some are staying around. What's your assessment? >> So we've seen a lot of ah cycles. If you've been in this industry for 567 years, you'll see that we've had multiple of these winters, some of them lost, lasting longer than others on dhe. This late last one didn't didn't last as long as the one before. So what we really every time we see a ah boom, we have ah lot of media and a lot of people coming in brand new, trying to educate themselves about What is this? So we see just on everlasting cycle of just expansion on dhe. The price right now is not at the all time high, but it's still considered pretty significant at the beginning of the year was only about three or $4000. Right now it's about 10,000 and $100 for for a Bitcoin a cz with the eye CEOs. There have been a lot of concerns, rightfully so, because anyone can whip out a token and start selling it almost a security. But the central banker behind has a list of acceptable crypto assets that they will allow us to list. So right now we only have four crypto currencies are assets Bitcoin like coin ethereum and X R P. But nothing more than that at the time. And we hope to add more in the future. >> Ripples been taken some hits lately in the U. S. What about Eos and some of the other ones around the coin gets a corner, get some growth, you seeing some new things. How you guys gonna be evaluating some of these other new currencies? Is there a formula, you keep an eye on them. What's the consisted of concensus? What's that >> right? So we are agnostic to choosing the crypto asset that the color customers want to invest in it. If the central bank of behind accept this as secure liquid enough and, um, essentially time tested as well, For if it's been around for, let's say, 3 to 5 years with no network issues, then maybe retail customers can invest in it. But if it if it is just came up a brand new, we might come up. It's not time tested. Security wise, um, it hasn't gone through some certain pressures that are necessary for a network for payments are storing of value. >> So the central bank makes the decision on what they're gonna accept. What they >> listed in viable. That's right. But we we take customer input all the time. We started with just three, and then we had a lot of demand for exactly here in the region, and way listed it after getting improved. >> So we can't get Cube coin up there, can we? >> It defends the eyes that thinks he's coming. Okay, coming for two years in a row, knows >> what's coming. What's your final thoughts? The entrepreneurs out there because it's a lot of activity. This is one of those things where persistence really matters. No, your space Stay humble. Yeah, deal with these cycles because they are happening right? There is a There is a high velocity of cycles seasons, if you will, winter and summer. >> Well, I really think people should be should be more calculated to think long term with this technology. A lot of people are trying to make a quick buck or just make something, um, thinking that it's just a quick way to make money. But I really think people should educate themselves, both the entrepreneurs and the the retail investors that, uh, you know about the market about the technology so they can really see where the use cases might be of most need to the market. >> Talk about your, uh, your expansion plans. You have to to co founders in the US You're the co founders in Egypt. Is there gonna be a remote team? Is it going to be in by rain? What's the what's the hiring look like? Where's that where people will be located. >> So most of our if not all, of our customer support. Our client service agents are here in the in Bahrain. Um, we have the phone co founders now the to Joseph and a J from the Bay area there in behind as well here for the majority of the year there in the office. Now, um, the the engineering team, however, is a little scattered. Sometimes we we find we're security is a really high priority for us. It's the number one priority for us, as any Cryptocurrency exchange would be. So we re really scout talent and from the U. S. From Canada from other places around the world. Eso our engineering team is based in the Bay Area and other places in the U. S. Um, aside from Joseph, who leads it, who's the co founder here and behind. And the rest of the business and customer team is here behind. >> So really, the gating factor on hiring is making sure security's number one. So it's not so much. Get people filled in an office on the engineering front. >> No, it's definitely way. Look for high quality candidates, so that's our priority. We may be a small team, but they're all superstars. To be honest, >> what's been the biggest challenge that you guys have to overcome in this process because it's tough to get the license wasn't just being patient was. It's the diligence. What were some of the things that you overcame that were challenges? >> Well, it's it's definitely it definitely was a challenge to talk to. Ah, lot of regulators in the region. In general, Bahrain was by far the most cooperative. So right now the challenge is perhaps talking to other regulators when you talk expansion plans, we hoped we are serving the whole Middle East here from the from behind. But we'd idly, ideally want to also set up banking in Kuwait or youe or Saudi just so we can have better, quicker, on and off ramps for the customers. They're >> one of the big stories out. See Amazon Web service. It has a region here, um, pretty important. Pretty big deal. What's your take on what you think is gonna do for the region having a Amazon region multiple availability zones? What's that going to do for the entrepreneurship equation? >> I mean, it's fantastic. You see a lot of excitement here from entrepreneurs in the region and especially with regulation. How about having customer data stored here in the region? Um, it's really going to help. A lot of entrepreneurs also mitigate, You know, any downtime from hosting it in other places? >> New generation of entrepreneurship Hitting the scene here, isn't it? >> Yeah, it's really exciting. Lots of funding going around. Lots of ideas. Pretty really, really exciting for all entrepreneurs. >> Fail fast. As we always say, No one likes failure, but it takes Takes guts to start a company course. Of course. You know, thanks for coming. I appreciate it and say congratulations on your success. Thank you. Coverage Here we are in by rain for AWS summit. We're back with more after this short break.