>> Announcer: Live from Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE, covering Spark Summit East 2017. Brought to you by Databricks. Now, here are your hosts Dave Vellante and George Gilbert. >> Welcome back to snowy Boston, everybody. This is theCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage. We're here at Spark Summit East, hashtag SparkSummit. Manish Gupta is here, he's the CMO at Redis Labs. Manish, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you, good to be here. >> So, you know, 10 years ago you say you're in the database business and everybody would yawn. Now you're the life of the party. >> Yeah, the world has changed. I think the party has lots and lots of players. We are happy to be on the top of that heap. >> It is a crowded space, so how does Redis Labs differentiate? >> Redis Labs is the company behind the massively popular open source Redis, and Redis became popular because of its performance primarily, and then simplicity. Developers could very easily run up an instance of Redis, solve some very hairy problems, and time to market was a big issue for them. Redis Enterprise took that forward and enabled it to be mission critical, ready for the largest workloads, ready for things that the enterprises need in a highly distributed clustered environment. So they have resilience and they benefit from the performance of Redis. >> And your claim to fame, as you say, is that top-gun performance, you guys will talk about some of the benchmarks later. We're talking about use cases like fraud detection, as example. Obviously ad serving would be another one. But add some color to that if you would. >> Redis is whatever you need to make real time real, Redis plays a very important role. It is able to deliver millions of operations per second with sub-millisecond latency, and that's the hallmark. With data structures that comprise Redis, you can solve the problems in a way, and the reason you can get that performance is because the data structures take some very complex issues and simplify the operation. Depending on the use case, you could use one of the data structures, you can mix and match the data structures, so that's the power of a Redis. We're used for ITO, for machine learning, for metering of billing and telecommunications environment, for personalization, for ad serving with companies like Groupon and others, and the list goes on and on. >> Yeah, you've got a big list on your website of all your customers, so you can check that out. Let's get the business model piece out of the way. Everybody's always fascinated. Okay, you got open source, how do you make money? How does Redis make money? >> Yeah, you know, we believe strategically fostering the growth of open source is foundational in our business model, and we invest heavily both R&D and marketing to do that. On top of that, to enable enterprise success and deployment of Redis, we have the mission critical, highly available Redis Enterprise offerings. Our monetization is entirely based on the Redis Enterprise platform, which takes advantage of the data structures and performance of core Redis, but layers on top management and the capabilities that make things like auto-recovery, auto-sorting, management much, much easier for the enterprise. We make that available in four deployment models. The enterprise can select us as Redis cloud, which runs on a public infrastructure on any of the four major platforms. We also allow for the enterprise to select a VPC environment in their own private clouds. They can also get software and self-manage that, or get our software and we can manage it for them. Four deployment options are the modalities in other ways where the enterprise customers help us monetize. >> When you said four major platforms, you meant cloud platforms? >> That's right. AWS, >> So, AWS, Azure >> Azure, Google, and IBM. >> Is IBM software, got there in the fourth, alright. >> That's right, all four. >> Go to the whip IBM. Go ahead, George. >> Along the lines of the business model, and we were sort of starting to talk about this earlier offline, you're just one component in building an application, and there's always this challenge of, well, I can manage my component better than anyone else, but it's got to fit with a bunch of other vendors' components. How do you make that seamless to the customer so that it's not defaulting over to a cloud vendor who has to build all the components themselves to make it work together? >> Certainly, you know, database is an integral part of your stack, of your application stack, but it is a stack, so there are other components. Redis and Redis Labs has a very, very large ecosystem within which we operate. We work closely with others for interfaces, for connectors, for interoperability, and that's a sustained environment that we invest in on a continuous basis. >> How do handle application consistency? A lot of in the no-SQL world, even in the AWS world, you hear about eventual consistency, but in the real-time world, there's a need for more rigorous, what's your philosophy there, how do you approach that? >> I think that's an issue that many no-SQL vendors have not been able to crack. Redis Labs has been at the forefront of that. We are taking an approach, and we are offering what we call tuneable consistency. Depending on the economics and the business model and the use case, the needs of consistency vary. In some cases, you do need immediate consistency. In other cases, you don't ever need consistency. And to give that flexibility to the customer is very important, so we've taken the approach where you can go from loose consistency to what we call strong eventual consistency. That approach is based on a fairly well trusted architecture and approach called CRDT, Conflict-free Replication Data Type. That approach allows us to, regardless of what the cluster magnitude or the distribution looks like geographically, we can deliver strong eventual consistency which meets the needs of majority of the customers. >> What are you seeing in terms of, you know, also in that a discussion about acid properties, and how many workloads really need acid properties. What are seeing now as you get more cloud native workloads and more no-SQL oriented workloads in terms of the requirement for those acid properties? >> First of all, we truly believe and agree that not all environments required acid support. Having said that, to be a truly credible database, you must support acid, and we do. Redis is acid-compli, supports acid, and Redis Labs certainly supports that. >> I remember on a stage once with Curt Monash, I'm sure you know Curt, right? Very famous database person. And he basically had a similar answer. But you would say that increasingly there are workloads that, the growth workloads don't necessarily require that, is that fair statement? >> That's a fair statement I would say. >> Dave: Great, good. >> There's a trade-off, though, when you talked about strong eventual consistency, potentially you have to wait for, presumably, a quorum of the partitions, I'm getting really technical here, but in other words, you've got a copy of the data here-- >> Dave: Good CMO question. (laughing) >> But your value proposition to the customers, we get this stuff done fast, but if you have to wait for a couple other servers to make sure that they've got the update, that can slow things way down. How does that trade-off work? >> I think that's part of the power of our architecture. We have a nothing shared, single proxy architecture where all of the replication, the disaster recovery, and the consistency management of the back end is handled by the proxy, and we ensure that the performance is not degraded when you are working through the consistency challenges, and that's where significant amount of IP is in the development of that proxy. >> I'll take that as a, let's go into it even more offline. >> Manish: Sounds good. >> And I have some other CMO questions, if I may. A lot of young companies like yours, especially in open source world, when they go to get the word out, they rely on their community, their open source community, and that's the core, and that makes a lot of sense, it's their peeps. As you become, grow more into enterprise grade apps and workloads, how do you extend beyond that? What is Redis Labs doing to sort of reach that C-Suite, are you even trying to reach that C-Suite up level to messaging? How do you as a CMO deal with those challenges? >> Maybe I'll begin by talking about our personas that matter to us in the ecosystem. The enterprise level, the architects, the developers, are the primary target, which we try to influence in early part of the decision cycle, it's at the architectural level. The ultimate teams that manage, run, and operate the infrastructure is certainly the DevOps, or the operations teams, and we spend time there. All along for some of the enterprise engagements, CIOs, chief data officers, and CTOs tend to play a very important role in the decisions and the selection process, and so, we do influence and interact with the C-Suite quite heavily. What the power of the open source gives us is that groundswell of love for Redis. Literally you can walk around a developer environment, such as the Spark Summit here, and you'll find people wearing Redis Geek shirts. And we get emails from Kazakhstan and strange, places from all over the world where we don't necessarily have salesforce, and requesting t-shirts, "send us stickers." Because people love Redis, and the word of mouth, that ground level love for the technology enables the decisions to be so much easier and smoother. We're not convincing, it's not a philosophical battle anymore. It's simply about the use case and the solution where Redis Enterprise fits or doesn't fit. >> Okay, so it really is that core developer community that are your advocates, and they're able to internally sell to the C-Suite. A lot of times the C-Suite, not the CTO so much, but certainly the CIO, CDO are like, "Yeah, yeah, they're geekin' out on some new hot thing. "What's the business impact?" Do you get that question a lot, and how do address it? >> I think then you get to some of the very basic tools, ROI calculators and the value proposition. For the C-level, the message is very simple. We are the least risky bet. We are the best long-term proposition, and we are the best cost answer for their implementation. Particularly as the needs are increasingly becoming more real-time in nature, they are not batch processed. Yes, there will always be some of that, but as the workloads are becoming, there is a need for faster processing, there is a need for quick insights, and real-time is not a moniker anymore, right. Real-time truly needs to be delivered today. And so, I think those three propositions for the C-Suite are resonating very well. >> Let's talk about ROI calculators for a second. I love talking about it because it underscores what a company feels as though its core value proposition is. I would think with Redis Labs part of the value proposition is you are enabling new types of workloads and new types of, whether it's sources of revenue or productivity. And these are generally telephone numbers as compared to some of the cost savings head to head to your competition, which of course you want to stress as well because the CFO cares about the cap-backs. What do you emphasize in that, and we don't have to get into the calculator itself, but in the conceptual model, what's the emphasis? Is it on those sort of business value attributes, is it on the sort of cost-savings? How do you translate performance into that business value? A lot of questions there, but if you could summarize, that'd be great. >> Well, I think you can think of it in three dimensions. The very first one is, does the performance support the use case or the solution that is required? That's the very first one. The second piece that fits in it, and that's in our books, that's operations per second and the latency. The second piece is the cost side, and that has two components to it. The first component is, what are the compute requirements? So, what is the infrastructure underneath that has to support it? And the efficiency that Redis and Redis Enterprise has is dramatically superior to the alternatives. And so, the economics show up. To run a million operations per second, we can do that on two nodes as opposed to alternative, which might need 50 nodes or 300 nodes. >> You can utilize your assets on the floor much better than maybe the competition can. >> This is where the data structures come into play quite a bit. That's one part of-- >> Dave: That's one part of the cost. >> Yeah. The other part of the cost is the human cost. >> Dave: People, yeah. >> And because, and this goes back to the open source, because the people available with the talent and the competency and appreciation for Redis, it's easy to procure those people, and your cost of acquisition and deploying goes down quite a bit. So, there's a human cost to it. The third dimension to this whole equation is time to market. And time to market is measured in many ways. Is it lost revenue if it takes you longer to get there? And Redis consistently from multiple analysts' reports gets top ranking for fastest way to get to market because of how simple it is. Beyond performance, simplicity is a second hallmark. >> That's a benefit acceleration, and you can quantify that. >> Absolutely, absolutely. And that's a revenue parameter, right. >> For years, people have been saying this Cambrian explosion of databases is unsustainable, and sort of in response we've gotten a squaring of the Cambrian explosion. The question is, with your sort of very flexible, I don't want to get too geeky, 'cause Dave'll cut me off, but the idea that you can accommodate time series and all these different ways of, all these different types of data, are we approaching a situation where customers can start consolidating their database choices and have fewer vendors, fewer products in their landscape? >> I think not only are we getting there, but we must get there. You've got over 300 databases in the marketplace, and imagine a CIO or an architect trying to have to sort through that to make a decision, it's difficult, and you certainly cannot support it from a trading standpoint or from an investment, cap-backs, and all that standpoint. What we have done with Redis is introduce something called Redis Modules. We released that at the last RedisConf in May in San Francisco. And the Redis Module is a very simple concept but a very powerful concept. It's an API which can be utilized to take an existing development effort, written as CC++, that can be ported onto the Redis data structures. This gives you the flexibility without having to reinvent the wheel every single time to take that investment, port it on top of Redis, and you get the performance, and you can make now Redis becomes a multi-model database. And I'm going to get to your answer of how do you address the multiple needs so you don't need multiple databases. To give you some examples, since the introduction of Redis Modules, we have now over 50 modules that have been published by a variety of places, not just Redis Labs. To indicate how simple and how powerful this model is. We took Lucene and developed the world's fastest full-text search engine as a module. We have very recently introduced Redis machine learning as a module that works with Spark ML and serves as a great serving layer in the machine learning domain. Just two very simple examples, but work that's being done ported over onto Redis data structures and now you have ability to do some very powerful things because of what Redis is. And this is the way future's going to be. I think every database is trying to offer multi-functionality to be multi-model in nature, but instead of doing it one step at a time, this approach gives us the ability to leverage the entire ecosystem. >> Your point being consolidation's inevitable in this business as well. >> Manish: Architectural consolidation. >> Yes, but also you would think, company consolidation, isn't that going to follow? What do you make of the market, and tell me, if you look back on the database market and what Oracle was able to achieve in the face of, maybe not as many players, but you had Sybase and Informix, and certainly DB2's still around, and SQL Server's still around, but Oracle won, and maybe it was SQL standards that. It's great to be lucky and good. Can we learn from that, or is this a whole different world? Are there similarities, and how do you, how do you see that consolidation potentially shaking out, if you agree that there will be consolidation? >> Yeah, there has to be, first and foremost, an architectural approach that solves the OPEX, CAPEX challenge for the enterprise. But beyond that, no industry can sustain the diversity and the fragmentation that exists in database world. I think there will always be new things coming out, of universities particularly. There's great innovation and research happening, and that is required to augment. But at the end of the day, the commercial enterprises cannot be of the fragmented volume that we have today in the database world, so there is going to be some consolidation, and it's not unnatural. I think it's natural, it's expected, time will tell what that looks like. We've seen some of our competitors acquire smaller companies to add graph functionality, to add search functionality. We just don't think that's the level of consolidation that really moves the needle for the industry. It's got to be at a higher level of consolidation. >> I don't want to, don't take this the wrong way, don't hate me for saying it, but is Oracle sort of the enemy, if I can say that. I mean, it's like, no, okay. >> Depends how you define enemy. >> I'm not going to go do many of the workloads that you're talking about on Oracle, despite what Larry tells me at Oracle OpenWorld. And I'm not going to make Oracle my choice for any of the workloads that you guys are working on. I guess in terms, I mean, everybody who's in the database business looks at that and say, "Hey, we can do it cheaper, better, "more productively," but, could you respond to that, and what do you make of Amazon's moves in the database world? Does that concern you? >> We think of Amazon and Oracle as two very different philosophies, if you can use that word. The approach we have taken is really a forward-looking approach and philosophy. We believe that the needs of the market need to be solved in new ways, and new ways should not be encumbered by old approaches. We're not trying to go and replicate what was done in the SQL world or in a relational database world. Our approach is how do you deliver a multi-model database that has the real-time attribute attached to it in a way that requires very limited computer force power and very few resources to manage? You take all of those things as kind of the core philosophy, which is a forward-looking philosophy. We are definitely not trying to replicate what an Oracle used to be. AWS I think is a very different animal. >> Dave: Interesting, though. >> They have defined the cloud, and I think play a very important role. We are a strong partner of theirs, much of our traffic runs on AWS infrastructure, certainly also on other clouds. I think AWS is one to watch in how they evolve. They have database offerings, including Redis offerings. However, we fully recognize, and the industry recognizes that that's not to the same capability as Redis Enterprise. It's open sourced Redis managed by AWS, and that's fine as a cache, but you cannot persist, and you really cannot have a multi-model capability that's a full database in that approach. >> And you're in the marketplace. >> Manish: We are in the marketplace. >> Obviously. >> And actually, we announced earlier, a few weeks ago, that you can buy and get Redis cloud access, which is Redis Enterprise cloud, on AWS through the integrated billing approach on their marketplace. You can have an AWS account and get our service, the true Redis Enterprise service. >> And as a software company, you'd figure, okay, the cloud infrastructures are service, we don't care what infrastructure it runs on. Whatever the customer wants, but you see AWS making these moves up-market, you got to obviously be paying attention to that. >> Manish: Certainly, certainly. >> Go ahead, last question. >> Interesting that you were saying that to solve this problem of proliferation of choice it has to be multi-model with speed and low resource requirement. If I were to interpret that from an old-style database perspective, it would be you're going to get, the multi-model is something you are addressing now, with the extensibility, but the speed means taking out that abstraction layer that was the query optimizer sort of and working almost at the storage layer, or having an option to do that. Would that be a fair way to say? >> No, I don't think that necessarily needs to be the case. For us, speed translates from the simplicity and the power of the data structures. Instead of having to serialize, deserialize before you process data in a Spark context, or instead of having to look for data that is perhaps not put in sorted sets for a use case that you might be doing, running a query on, if the data is already handled through one of the data structures, you now have a much faster query time, you now have the ability to reach the data in the right approach. And again, this is no-SQL, right, so it's a schema lesson write and it sets your scheme as you want it be on read. We marry that with the data structures, and that gives you the ultimate speed. >> We have to leave it there, but Manish, I'll give you the last word. Things we should be paying attention to for Redis Labs this year, events, announcements? >> I think the big thing I would leave the audience with is RedisConf 2017. It's May 31 to June 2 in San Francisco. We are expecting over 1,000 people. The brightest minds around Redis of the database world will be there, and anybody who is considering deploying the next generation database should attend. >> Dave: Where are you doing that? >> It's the Marriott Marquis in San Franciso. >> Great, is that on Howard Street, across from the--? >> It is right across from Moscone. >> Great, awesome location. People know it, easy to get to. Well, congratulations on the success. We'll be lookin' for outputs from that event, and hope to see you again on theCUBE. >> Thank you, enjoyed the conversation. >> Alright, good. Keep it right there, everybody, we'll be back with our next guest. This is theCUBE, we're live from Spark Summit East. Be right back. (upbeat electronic rock music)

>> Announcer: Live, from Copenhagen, Denmark, it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its Ecosystem Partners. >> Well everyone, welcome back to the live coverage of theCUBE here in Copenhagen, Denmark for KubeCon, Kubernetes Con 2018, part of the CNCF, Cloud Native Compute Foundation, part of the Linux Foundation. I'm John Furrier with Lauren Cooney, the founder of Spark Labs, breaking down day two, wrapping up our coverage of KubeCon and all the success that we've seen with Kubernetes, I thought it would be really appropriate to bring on the cofounder of KubeCon originally, Joseph Jacks, known as JJ in the industry, a good friend of theCUBE and part of the early formation of what is now Cloud Native. We were all riffing on that at the time. welcome back to theCUBE, great to see you. >> Thank you for having me John. >> So, for the story, for the folks out there, you know Cloud Native was really seen by the devops community, and infrastructure code was no secret to the insiders in the timeframes from 2010 through 2015, 16 timeframe, but really it was an open stack summit. A lot of people were kind of like, hey, you know, Google's got Kubernetes, they're going to open it up and this could be a real game changer, container, Docker was flying off the shelves. So we just kind of saw, right, and you were there and we were talking so there was a group of us. You were one of them. And you founded KubeCon, and bolted into the, at that time, the satellite Linux Foundation events, and then you pass it off as a good community citizen to the CNCF, so I wanted to just make sure that people knew that. What a great success. What's your impression? I mean, are you blown away? >> I am definitely blown away. I mean I think the size and scale of the European audience is remarkable. We had something like slightly less than half this in Austin last year. So to see more than that come here in Europe I think shows the global kind of growth curve as well as like, I think, Dan and someone else was asking sort of raise your hand if you've been to Kubecon Austin and very few actually, so there's a lot of new people showing up in Europe. I think it just shows the demand-- >> And Dan's been traveling around. I've seen him in China, some events I've been to. >> Joseph: All over. >> He's really working hard so props to him. We gave him some great props earlier. But he also told us Shanghai is coming online. >> Joseph: Yeah. >> So you got Shanghai, you to Barcelona next year for the European show, and of course Seattle. This is a community celebrating right now because there's a lot of high fives going on right now because there's a lot of cool, we've got some sort of core standard, defacto standard, now let's go to work. What are you working on now? You got a stealth startup? Share a little bit about it. I know you don't want to give the details out, but where is it kind of above the stack? Where you going to be playing? >> Sure, so we're not talking too much in terms of specifics and we're pretty stealthy, but I can tell you what I'm personally very excited about in terms of where Kubernetes is going and kind of where this ecosystem is starting to mature for practitioners, for enterprises. So one of the things that I think Kubernetes is starting to bring to bear is this idea of commoditizing distributed systems for everyday developers, for everyday enterprises. And I think that that is sort of the first time in sort of maybe, maybe the history of software development, software engineering and building applications, we're standardizing on a set of primitives, a set of building blocks for distributed system style programming. You know we had in previous eras things like Erlang and fault tolerant programming and frameworks, but those were sort of like pocketed into different programming communities and different types of stacks. I think Kubernetes is the one sort of horizontal technology that the industry's adopting and it's giving us these amazing properties, so I think some of the things that we're focusing on or excited about involve sort of the programming layer on top of Kubernetes in simplifying the experience of kind of bringing all stateful and enterprise workloads and different types of application paradigms natively into Kubernetes without requiring a developer to really understand and learn the Kubernetes primitives themselves. >> That's next level infrastructure as code. Yeah so as Kubernetes becomes more successful, as Kubernetes succeeds at a larger and larger scale, people simply shouldn't have to know or understand the internals. There's a lot of people, I think Kelsey and a few other people, started to talk about Kubernetes as the Linux kernel of distributed computing or distributed systems, and I think that's a really great way of looking at it. You know, do programmers make file system calls directly when they're building their applications? Do they script directly against the kernel for maybe some very high performance things. But generally speaking when you're writing a service or you're writing a microservice or some business logic, you're writing at a higher level of abstraction and a language that's doing some IO and maybe some reading and writing files, but you're using higher level abstractions. So I think by the same token, the focus today with Kubernetes is people are learning this API. I think over time people are going to be programming against that API at a higher level. And what are you doing here, the show? Obviously you're (mumbles) so you're doing some (mumbles) intelligence. Conversations you've been in, can you share your opinion of what's going on here? Your thoughts on the content program, the architecture, the decisions they've made. >> I think we've just, so lots of questions in there. What am I doing here? I just get so energized and I'm so, I just get reinvigorated kind of being here and talking to people and it's just super cool to see a lot of old faces, people who've been here for a while, and you know, one of the things that excites me, and this is just like proof that the event's gotten so huge. I walk around and I see a lot of familiar faces, but more than 80, 90% of people I've never seen before, and I'm like wow this has like gotten really super huge mainstream. Talking with some customers, getting a good sense of kind of what's going on. I think we've seen two really huge kind of trends come out of the event. One is this idea of multicloud sort of as a focus area, and you've talked with Bassam at Upbound and the sort of multicloud control plane, kind of need and demand out there in the community and the user base. I think what Bassam's doing is extremely exciting. The other, so multicloud is a really big paradigm that most companies are sort of prioritizing. Kubernetes is available now on all the cloud providers, but how do we actually adopt it in a way that is agnostic to any cloud provider service. That's one really big trend. The second big thing that I think we're starting to see, just kind of across a lot of talks is taking the Kubernetes API and extending it and wrapping it around stateful applications and stateful workloads, and being able to sort of program that API. And so we saw the announcement from Red Hat on the operator framework. We've seen projects like Kube Builder and other things that are really about sort of building native custom Kubernetes APIs for your applications. So extensibility, using the Kubernetes API as a building block, and then multicloud. I think those are really two huge trends happening here. >> What is your view on, I'm actually going to put you on test here. So Red Hat made a bet on Kubernetes years ago when it was not obvious to a lot of the other big wales. >> Joseph: From the very beginning really. >> Yeah from the very beginning. And that paid off huge for Red Hat as an example. So the question is, what bets should people be making if you had to lay down some thought leadership on this here, 'cause you obviously are in the middle of it and been part of the beginning. There's some bets to be made. What are the bets that the IBMs and the HPs and the Cisco's and the big players have to make and what are the bets the startups have to make? >> Well yeah, there's two angles to that. I mean, I think the investment startups are making, are different set of investments and motivated differently than the multinational, huge, you know, technology companies that have billions of dollars. I think in the startup category, startups just should really embrace Kubernetes for speeding the way they build reliable and scalable applications. I think really from the very beginning Kubernetes is becoming kind of compelling and reasonable even at a very small scale, like for two or three node environment. It's becoming very easy to run and install and manage. Of course it gives you a lot of really great properties in terms of actually running, building your systems, adopting microservices, and scaling out your application. And that's what's sort of like a direct end user use case, startups, kind of building their business, building their stack on Kubernetes. We see companies building products on top of Kubernetes. You see a lot of them here on the expo floor. That's a different type of vendor startup ecosystem. I think there's lots of opportunities there. For the big multinationals, I think one really interesting thing that hasn't really quite been done yet, is sort of treating Kubernetes as a first-class citizen as opposed to a way to commercialize and enter a new market. I think one of the default ways large technology companies tend to look at something hypergrowth like Kubernetes and TensorFlow and other projects is wrapping around it and commercializing in some way, and I think a deeper more strategic path for large companies could be to really embed Kubernetes in the core kind of crown jewel IP assets that they have. So I'll give you an example, like, for let's just take SAP, I'll just pick on SAP randomly, for no reason. This is one of the largest enterprise software companies in the world. I would encourage the co-CEOs of SAP, for example. >> John: There's only one CEO now. >> Is there one CEO now? Okay. >> John: Snabe left. It's now (drowned out by talking). >> Oh, okay, gotcha. I haven't been keeping up on the SAP... But let's just say, you know, a CEO boardroom level discussion of replatforming the entire enterprise application stack on something like Kubernetes could deliver a ton of really core meaningful benefits to their business. And I don't think like deep super strategic investments like that at that level are being made quite yet. I think at a certain point in time in the future they'll probably start to be made that way. But that's how I would like look at smart investments on the bigger scale. >> We're not seeing scale yet with Kubernetes, just the toe is in the water. >> I think we're starting to see scale, John. I think we are. >> John: What's the scale number in clusters? >> I'll give you the best example, which came up today, and actually really surprised me which I think was a super compelling example. The largest retailer in China, so essentially the Amazon of China, JD.com, is running in production for years now at 20,000 compute nodes with Kubernetes, and their largest cluster is a 5,000 node cluster. And so this is pushing the boundary of the sort of production-- >> And I think that may be the biggest one I've heard. >> Yeah, that's certainly, I mean for a disclosed user that's pretty huge. We're starting to see people actually talk publicly about this which is remarkable. And there are huge deployments out there. >> We saw Tyler Jewell come on from WSO2. He's got a new thing called Ballerina. New programming language, have you seen that? >> Joseph: I have, I have. >> Thoughts on that? What's your thoughts on that? >> You know, I think that, so I won't make any particular specific comments on Ballerina, I'm not extremely informed on it. I did play with a little bit, I don't want to give any of my opinions, but what I'd say, and I think Tyler actually mentioned this, one of the things that I believe is going to be a big deal in the coming years, is so, trying to think of Kubernetes as an implementation detail, as the kernel, do you interact directly with that? Do you learn that interface directly? Are you sort of kind of optimizing your application to be sort of natively aware of those abstractions? I think the answer to all of those questions is no, and Kubernetes is sort of delegated as a compiler target, and so frankly like directionally speaking, I think what Ballerina's sort of design is aspiring towards is the right one. Compile time abstraction for building distributed systems is probably the next logical progression. I like to think of, and I think Brendan Burns has started to talk about this over the last year or two. Everyone's writing assembly code 'cause we're swimming yaml and configuration based designs and systems. You know, sort of pseudodeclarative, but more imperative in static configurations. When in reality we shouldn't be writing these assembly artifacts. We should be delegating all of this complexity to a compiler in the same way that you know, we went from assembly to C to higher level languages. So I think over time that starts to make a lot of sense, and we're going to see a lot of innovation here probably. >> What's your take on the community formation? Obviously, it's growing, so, any observations, any insight for the folks watching what's happening in the community, patterns, trends you'd see, like, don't like. >> I think we could do a better job of reducing politics amongst the really sort of senior community leaders, particularly who have incentives behind their sort of agendas and sort of opinions, since they work for various, you know, large and small companies. >> Yeah, who horse in this race. >> Sure, and there's, whether they're perverse incentives or not, I think net the project has such a high quality genuine, like humble, focused group of people leading it that there isn't much pollution and negativity there. But I think there could be a higher standard in some cases. Since the project is so huge and there are so many very fast moving areas of evolution, there tends to be sort of a fast curve toward many cooks being in the kitchen, you know, when new things materialize and I think that could be better handled. But positive side, I think like the project is becoming incredibly diverse. I just get super excited to see Aparna from Google leading the project at Google, both on the hosted Saas offering and the Kubernetes project. People like Liz and others. And I just think it's an awesome, welcoming, super diverse community. And people should really highlight that more. 'Cause I think it's a unique asset of the project. >> Well you're involved in some deep history. I think we're going to be looking this as moment where there was once a KubeCon that was not part of the CNCF, and you know, you did the right thing, did a good thing. You could have kept it to yourself and made some good cash. >> It's definitely gotten really big, and it's way beyond me now at this point. >> Those guys did a good job with CNCF. >> They're doing phenomenal. I think vast majority of the credit, at this scale, goes to Chris Anasik and Dan Conn, and the events team at the Linux Foundation, CNCF, and obviously Kelsey and Liz and Michelle Noorali and many others. But blood, sweat, and tears. It's no small feat pulling off an event like this. You know, corralling the CFP process, coordinating speakers, setting the themes, it's a really huge job. >> And now they got to deal with all the community, licenses, Lauren your thoughts? >> Well they're consistent across Apache v2 I believe is what Dan said, so all the projects under the CNCF are consistently licensed. So I think that's great. I think they actually have it together there. You know, I do share your concerns about the politics that are going on a little bit back and forth, the high level, I tend to look back at history a little bit, and for those of us that remember JBoss and the JBoss fork, we're a little bit nervous, right? So I think that it's important to take a look at that and make sure that that doesn't happen. Also, you know, open stack and the stuff that we've talked about before with distros coming out or too many distros going to be hitting the street, and how do we keep that more narrow focused, so this can go across-- >> Yeah, I started this, I like to list rank and iterate things, and I started with this sheet of all the vendors, you know, all the Kubernetes vendors, and then Linux Foundation, or CNCF took it over, and they've got a phenomenal sort of conformance testing and sort of compliance versioning sheet, which lists all the vendors and certification status and updates and so on and I think there's 50 or 60 companies. On one hand I think that's great, because it's more innovation, lots of service providers and offerings, but there is a concern that there might be some fragmentation, but again, this is a really big area of focus, and I think it's being addressed. Yeah, I think the right ones will end up winning, right? >> Joseph: Right, for sure. >> and that's what's going to be key. >> Joseph: Healthy competition. >> Yes. >> All right final question. Let's go around the horn. We'll start with you JJ, wrapping up KubeCon 2018, your thoughts, summary, what's happened here? What will we talk about next year about what happened this week in Denmark? >> I think this week in Denmark has been a huge turning point for the growth in Europe and sort of proof that Kubernetes is on like this unstoppable inflection, growth curve. We usually see a smaller audience here in Europe, relative to the domestic event before it. And we're just seeing the numbers get bigger and bigger. I think looking back we're also going to see just the quality of end users and the end user community and more production success stories starting to become front and center, which I think is really awesome. There's lots of vendors here. But I do believe we have a huge representation of end users and companies actually sharing what they're doing pragmatically and really changing their businesses from Financial Times to Cern and physics projects, and you know, JD and other huge companies. I think that's just really awesome. That's a unique thing of the Kubernetes project. There's some hugely transformative companies doing awesome things out there. >> Lauren your thoughts, summary of the week in Denmark? >> I think it's been awesome. There's so much innovation happening here and I don't want to overuse that word 'cause I think it's kind of BS at some point, but really these companies are doing new things, and they're taking this to new levels. I think that hearing about the excitement of the folks that are coming here to actually learn about Kubernetes is phenomenal, and they're going to bring that back into their companies, and you're going to see a lot more actually coming to Europe next year. I also true multicloud would be phenomenal. I would love that if you could actually glue those platforms together, per se. That's really what I'm looking for. But also security. I think security, there needs to be a security seg. We talked to customers earlier. That's something they want to see. I think that that needs to be something that's brought to the table. >> That's awesome. My view is very simple. You know I think they've done a good job in CNCF and Linux Foundation, the team, building the ecosystem, keeping the governance and the technical and the content piece separate. I think they did a good job of showing the future state that we'd like to get to, which is true multicloud, workload portability, those things still out of reach in my opinion, but they did a great job of keeping the tight core. And to me, when I hear words like defacto standard I think of major inflection points where industries have moved big time. You think of internetworking, you think of the web, you think of these moments where that small little tweak created massive new brands and created a disruptor enabler that just created, changed the game. We saw Cisco coming out of that movement of IP with routers you're seeing 3Com come out of that world. I think that this change, this new little nuance called Kubernetes is going to be absolutely a defacto standard. I think it's definitely an inflection point and you're going to see startups come up with new ideas really fast in a new way, in a new modern global architecture, new startups, and I think people are going to be blown away. I think you're going to see fast rising growth companies. I think it's going to be an investment opportunity whether it's token economics or a venture backer private equity play. You're going to see people come out of the wood work, real smart entrepreneur. I think this is what people have been waiting for in the industry so I mean, I'm just super excited. And so thanks for coming on. >> Thank you for everything you do for the community. I think you truly extract the signal from the noise. I'm really excited to see you keep coming to the show, so it's really awesome. >> I appreciate your support, and again we're co-developing content in the open. Lauren great to host with you this week. >> Thank you, it's been awesome. >> And you got a great new venture, high five there. High five to the founder of KubeCon. This is theCUBE, not to be confused with KubeCon. And we're theCUBE, C-U-B-E. I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. It's a wrap of day two global coverage here exclusively for KubeCon 2018, CNCF and the Linux Foundation. Thanks for watching. (techno music)

>> Announcer: Live from Copenhagen, Denmark, it's theCUBE covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Hello, everyone, welcome back to theCUBE's exclusive coverage here in Copenhagen, Denmark for coverage of KubeCon 2018, part of the CNCF CloudNative Compute Foundation, part of the Linux Foundation, I'm John Furrier with my cohost, Lauren Cooney, the founder of Spark Labs. We're here with Kelsey Hightower, co-chair of the program as well as a staff engineer, developer, advocate, at Google Cloud Platform, a celebrity in the industry, dynamic, always great to have you on, welcome back. >> Awesome, good to be back. >> How are you feeling, tired? You've got the energy, day two? >> I'm good, I finished my keynote yesterday. My duties are done, so I get to enjoy the conference like most attendees. >> Great. Keynote was phenomenal, got good props. Great content format, very tight, moving things along. A little bit of a jab at some of the cloud providers. Someone said, "Oh, Kelsey took a jab at the cloud guys." What was that about, I mean, there was some good comments on Twitter, but, keeping it real. >> Honestly, so I work at a cloud provider, so I'm part of the cloud guys, right? So I'm at Google Cloud, and what I like to do is, and I was using Amazon's S3 in my presentation, and I was showing people basically like the dream of, in this case, serverless, here's how this stuff actually works together right now. We don't really need anything else from the cloud providers. Here's what you can do right now, so, I like to take a community perspective, When I'm on the stage, so I'm not here only to represent Google and sell for Google. I'm here to say, "Hey, here's what's possible," and my job is to kind of up-level the thinking. So that was kind of the goal of that particular presentation is like, here's all this stuff, let's not lock it all down to one particular provider, 'cause this is what we're here for, KubeCon, CloudNativeCon, is about taking all of that stuff and standardizing it and making it accessible. >> And then obviously, people are talking about the outcome, that that's preferred right now in the future, which is a multi-cloud workload portability. Kubernetes is playing a very key role in obviously the dev ops, people who have been doing it for many many years, have eaten glass, spit nails, custom stuff, have put, reaped the benefits, but now they want to make it easy. They don't want to repeat that, so with Kubernetes nice formation, a lot of people saying here on theCUBE and in the hallways that a de facto standard, the word actually said multiple times here. Interesting. >> Yeah, so you got Kubernetes becoming the de facto standard for computes, but not events, not data, not the way you want to compute those events or data, so the job isn't complete. So I think Kubernetes will solve a large portion of compute needs, thumbs up, we're good to go. Linux has done this for the virtualization layer, Kubernetes is doing it for the containerization, but we don't quite have that on the serverless side. So it's important for us all to think about where the industry is going and so it's like, hey, where the industry is moving to, where we are now, but it's also important for us to get ahead of it, and also be a part of defining what the next de facto standard should be. >> And you mentioned community, which is important, because I want to just bring this up, there's a lot of startups in the membership of CNCF, and when you have that first piece done, you mentioned the other work to be done, that's an opportunity to differentiate. This is the commercialization opportunity to strike that balance. Your reaction to that, how do you see that playing out? Because it is an opportunity to create some value. >> Honestly I'm wearing a serverless.com T-shirt right now, right, that's the startup in the space. They're trying to make serverless easy to use for everyone, regardless of the platform. I think no matter what side of the field you stand on, we need these groups to be successful. They're independent companies, they're going for ambition, they're trying to fill the gaps in what we're all doing, so if they're successful, they just make a bigger market for everyone else, so this is why not only do we try to celebrate them, we try to give them this feedback, like, "Hey, here's what we're doing, "here's what the opportunities are," so I think we need them to be successful. If they all die out every time they start something, then we may not have people trying anymore. >> And I think there's actually a serverless seg in the CNCF, right? And I think that they're doing a lot of great work to kind of start to figure out what's going on. I mean, are you aware what those guys are up to? >> Exactly, so the keynote yesterday was largely about some of the work they're doing. So you mentioned the serverless seg, and CNCF. So some of the work that they're doing is called cloud events. But they wanted to standardize the way we take these events from the various providers, we're not going to make them all work the same way, but what we can do is capture those events in a standard way, and then help define a way to transport those between different providers if you will, and then how those responses come back. So at least we can start to standardize at least that part of the layer, and if Google offers you value, or Amazon offers you value, you own the data, and that data generates events, you can actually move it wherever you want, so that's the other piece, and I'm glad that they're getting in front of it. >> Well I think goal is, obviously, if I'm using AWS, and then I want to use Asher, and then I want to go to Google Cloud, or I want my development teams are using different components, and features, in all of them, right? You want to be able to have that portability across the cloud-- >> And we say together, so the key part of that demo was, if you're using one cloud provider for a certain service, in this case, I was using Google Translate to translate some data, but maybe your data lives in Amazon, the whole point was that, be notified that your data's in Amazon, so that it can be fired off an event into Google, function runs a translation, and writes the data back to Amazon. There are customers that actually do this today, right? There are different pieces of stacks that they want to be able to access, our goal is to make sure they can actually do that in a standard way, and then, show them how to do it. >> A lot of big buzz too also going on around Kubeflow, that Google co-chaired, or co-founded, and now part of the CNCF, Istio service meshes, again, this points to the dots that are connecting, which is okay, I got Kubernetes, we got containers, now Istio, what's your vision on that, how did that play out? An opportunity certainly to abstract the weights of complexity, what's your thoughts on Istio? >> So I think there's going to be certain things, things like Istio, there are parts of Istio that are very low level, that if done right, you may never see them. That's a good thing, so Istio comes in, and says, "Look, it's one thing to connect applications together, "which Kubernetes can help you do "with this built-in service discovery, "how does one app find the other app," but then it's another thing to lock down security and implement policy, this app can talk to this app under these conditions. Istio comes in, brings that to the playing field. Great, that's a great addition. Most people will probably wrap that in some higher-level platform, and you may never see it! Great! Then you mention Kubeflow, now this is a workflow, or at least an opinionated workflow, for doing machine-learning, or some analytics work. There's too many pieces! So if we start naming every single piece that you have to do, or we can say, "Look, we know there's a way that works, "we'll give it a name, we'll call it Kubeflow," and then what's going to happen there is the community's going to rally around actually more workflow, we have lots of great technology wrapped underneath all of that, but how should people use it? And I think that's what I'm actually happy to see now that we're in like year four or five of this thing, as people are actually talking about how to people leverage all of these things that fall below? >> As the IQ starts to increase with cloud-native, you're seeing enterprises, and there's levels of adoption, the early adopters, you know, the shiny new toy, are pushing the envelope, fast followers coming in, then you got the mainstream coming in, so mainstream, there's a lot of usage and consumption of containers, very comfortable with that, now they're bumping into Kubernetes, "Oh wow, this is great," different positions of the adoption. What's your message to each one, mainstream, fast followers, early adoptives, the early adoptives keep pushing, keep bringing that community together, form the community, fast forward. What's the position, what's the Kelsey Hightower view of each one of those points of the evolution? >> So I think we need a new model. So I think that model is kind of out now. Because if you look at the vendor relationships now, so the enterprise typically buys off the shelf when it's mature and ready to go. But at this point now, a lot of the library is all in the programming languages, if you see a language or library that you need, if it's on GitHub, you look around, it's like, "We're going to use this open-source library, "'cause we got to ship," right? So, they started doing early adoption maybe at the library level. Now you're starting to see it at the service level. So if I go to my partner or my vendor, and they say, "Hey, the new version of our software requires Kubernetes." Now, that's a little bit early for some of these enterprises to adopt, but now you're having the vendor relationship saying, "We will help you with Kubernetes." And also, a lot of these enterprises, it's early? Guess what, they have contributors to these projects. They helped design them. I remember back in the day, when I was in financial services, JPMC came out with their own messaging standard, so banks could communicate with each other. They gave that to Red Hat, and Red Hat turns it into a product, and now there's a new messaging standard. That kicked off ten years ago, and now we're starting to see these same enterprises contribute to Kubernetes. So I think now, there's a new model where, if it's early, enterprises are becoming the contributors, donating to the foundations, becoming members of things like CNCF, and on the flip side, they may still use their product, but they want a say in their future. >> So you can jump in at any level as a company, you don't need to wait for the mainstream, you can have a contributor, and in the front wave, to help shepherd through. >> Yeah, you need more say, I think when people bought typical enterprise software, if there wasn't a feature in there, you waited for the vendor to do it, the vendor comes up with their feature, and tells you it's going to cost another 200 million dollars for this add-on, and you have no say into the progress of it, or the speed of it. And then we moved to a world where there was APIs. Look, here's APIs, you can kind of build your own thing on top, now, the vendor's like, "You know what? "I'm going to help actually build the product that I rely on," so if vendor A is not my best partner right now, I could pick a different vendor and say, "Hey, I want a relationship, around this open-source "ecosystem, you have some features I like right now, "but I may want to able to modify them later." I think that's where we are right now. >> Well I think also the emergence of open-source offices, and things like that, and, you know, enterprises that are more monolithic, have really helped to move things forward with their users and their developers. I'm seeing a lot of folks here that are actually coming from larger companies inside of Europe, and they're actually trying to learn Kubernetes now, and they are here to bring that back into their companies, that they want to know about what's going on, right? >> That's a good observation-- >> It's great. >> That open-source office is replacing the I'm the vendor management person. >> Well you need legal-- >> Exactly. >> And you need all of those folks to just get the checkmarks, and get the approval, so that folks can actually take code in, and if it's under the right license, which is super important, or put code back out. >> And it seemed to be some of the same people that were managing the IBM relationship. The people that were managing the big vendor relationship, right? This thing's going to cost us all this cash, we got to make sure that we're getting the right, we're complying with the licensing model, that we're not using more than we paid for, in case we get an audit, the same group has some of the similar skills needed to shepherd their way through the open-source landscape, and then, in many cases, hiring in some of those core developers, to sit right in the organization, to give back, and to kind of have that first-tier support. >> That's a really good point, Lauren. I think this is why I think CNCF has been so successful is, they've kind of established the guardrails, and kind of the cultural notion of commercializing, while not foregoing the principles of open-source, so the operationalizing of open-source is really huge-- >> I'm kind of laughing over here, because, I started the open-source organization at Cisco, and Cisco was not, was new to open-source, and we had to put open data into the Linux Foundation, and I just remember the months of calls I was on, and the lawyers that I got to know, and-- >> You got scar tissue to prove it, too. >> I do, and I think when we did CNCF, I was talking to Craig years ago when we kind of kicked that off, it was really something that we wanted to do differently, we wanted to fast track it, we had the exact license that we wanted, we had the players that we wanted, and we really wanted to have this be something community-based, which I think, Kelsey, you've said it right there. It's really the communities that are coming together that you're seeing here. What else are you seeing here? What are the interesting projects that you see, that are kind of popping up, we have some, but are there others that you see? >> Well, so now, these same enterprises, now they have the talent, or at least not letting the talent leave, the talent now is like, "Well, we have an idea, and it's not core "to our business, let's open-source it." So, Intuit just inquired this workflow, small little start-up project, Argo, they're Intuit now, and maybe they had a need internally, suck in the right people, let the project continue, throw that Intuit logo there, and then sometimes you just see tools that are just being built internally, also be product ties from this open-source perspective, and it's a good way for these companies to stay engaged, and also to say, "Hey, if we're having this problem, "so are other people," so this is new, right? This open-source usually comes from the vendors, maybe a small group of developers, but now you're starting to see the companies say, "You know what, let's open-source our tool as well," and it's really interesting, because also they're pretty mature. They've been banked, they've been used, they're real, someone depends on them, and they're out. Interesting to see where that goes. >> Well yeah, Derek Hondell, from VMware, former Linux early guy, brought the same question. He says, "Don't confuse project with product." And to your point about being involved in the project, you can still productize, and then still have that dual relationship in a positive way, that's really a key point. >> Exactly, we're all learning how to share, and we're learning what to share. >> Okay, well let's do some self awareness here, well, for you, program's great, give you some props on that, you did a great job, you guys are the team, lot of high marks, question marks that are here that we've heard is security. Obviously, love Kubernetes, everyone's high-fiving each other, got to get back to work to reality, security is a conversation. Your thoughts on how that's evolving, obviously, this is front and center conversation, with all this service meshes and all these new services coming up, security is now being fought in the front end of this. What's your view? >> So I think the problem with security from certain people is that they believe that a product will come out that they can buy, to do security. Every time some new platform, oh, virtualization security. Java security. Any buzzword, then someone tries to attach security. >> It's a bolt-on. >> It's, yeah. So, I mean, most people think it's a practice. The last stuff that I seen on security space still applies to the new stack, it's not that the practice changed. Some of the threat models are the same, maybe some new threat models come up, or new threat models are aggravated because of the way people are using these platforms. But I think a lot of companies have never understood that. It's a practice, it will never be solved, there's nothing you can buy or subscribe to-- >> Not a silver bullet. >> Like antivirus, right? I'm only going to buy antivirus, as long as I run it, I should never get a virus. It's like, "No!" That's not how that works. The antivirus will be able to find things it knows about. And then you have to have good behavior to prevent having a problem in the first place. And I think security should be the same way, so I think what people need to do now, is they're being forced back into the practice of security. >> John: Security everywhere, basically. >> It's just a thing you have to do no matter what, and I think what people have to start doing with this conversation is saying, "If I adopt Kubernetes, does my threat model change?" "Does the container change the way I've locked down the VM?" In some cases, no, in some cases, yes. So I think when we start to have these conversations, everyone needs to understand the question you should ask of everyone, "What threat model should I be worried about, "and if it's something that I don't understand or know," that's when you might want to go look for a vendor, or go get some more training to figure out how you can solve it. >> And I think, Tyler Jewell was on from Ballerina, and he was talking about that yesterday, in terms of how they actually won't, they assume that the code is not secure. That is the first thing that they do when they're looking at Ballerina in their programming language, and how they actually accept code into it, is just they assume it's not secure. >> Oh exactly, like at Google we had a thing, we called it BeyondCorp. And there's other aspects to that, if you assume that it's going to be bad if someone was inside of your network, then pretend that someone is already inside your network and act accordingly. >> Yep, exactly, it's almost the reverse of the whitelisting. Alright, so let me ask you a question, you're in a unique position, glad to have you here on theCUBE, thanks for coming on and sharing your insights and perspective, but you also are the co-chair of this progress, so you get to see the landscape, you see the 20 mile stare, you have to have that long view, you also work at Google, which gives a perspective of things like BeyondCorp, and all of the large-scale work at Google, a lot of people want to, they're buying into the cloud-native, no doubt about it, there's still some educational work on the peoples' side, and process, and operationalizing it, with open-source, et cetera, but they want to know where the headroom is, they want to know, as you said, where's the directionally correct vector of the industry. So I got to ask you, in your perspective, where's all this going? For the folks watching who just want to have a navigation, paint the picture, what's coming directionally, shoot the arrow forward, as service meshes, as you start having this service layer, highly valuable, creative freedom to do things, what's the Kelsey vision on-- >> So I think this world of computing, after the mainframe, the mainframe, you want to process census data, you walk up, give it, it spits it back out. To me, that is beautiful. That's like almost the ultimate developer workflow. In, out. Then everyone's like, "I want my own computer, "and I want my own programming language, "and I want to write it in my basement, "without the proper power, or cords, or everything, "and we're all going to learn how "to do computing from scratch." And we all learnt, and we have what we call a legacy. All the mistakes I've made, but I maintain, and that's what we have! But the ultimate goal of computing is like the calculator, I want to be able to have a very simple interface, and the computer should give me an answer back. So where all this is going, Istio, service mesh, Kubernetes, cloud-native, all these patterns. Here's my app, run it for me. Don't ask me about auto scale groups, and all, run it for me. Give me a security certificate by default. Let's encrypt. Makes it super easy for anyone to get a tailored certificate rotated to all the right things. So we're slowly getting to a world where you can ask the question, "Here's my app, run it for me," and they say, "Here's the URL, "and when you hit this URL, we're going to do "everything that we've learned in the past "to make it secure, scalable, work for you." So that may be called open-shift, in its current implementation with Red Hat, Amazon may call it Lambda, Google Cloud may call it GKE plus some services, and we're never going to stop until the experience becomes, "Here's my app, run it for me." >> A resource pool, just programmability. And it's good, I think the enterprises are used to lifting and shifting, I mean, we've been through the evolution of IT, as we build the legacy, okay, consolidation, server consolidation, oh, hello VMs, now you have lift and shift. This is not a lift and shift kind of concept, cloud-native. It is a-- >> It doesn't have to be a lift and shift. So some people are trying to make it a lift and shift thing, where they say, "Look, you can bolt-on some of the stuff "that you're seeing in the new," and some consultants are like, "Hey, we'll sit their and roll up the sleeves, "and give you what we can," and I think that's an independent thing from where we're pushing towards. If you're ready, there's going to be a world, where you give us your code, and we run it, and it's scary for a lot of people, because they're going to be like, "Well, what do I do?" "What knobs do I twist in that world?" So I think that's just, that's where it's going. >> Well, in a world of millions of services coming out on the line, it's in operating, automation's got to be key, these are principles that have to go get bought into. I mean, you got to understand, administration is the exception, not the rule. This is the new world. It's kind of the Google world, and large-scale world, so it could be scary for some. I mean, you just bump into people all the time, "Hey Kelsey, what do I do?" And what do you say to them? You say, "Hey, what do I do?" What's the playbook? >> Often, so, it's early enough. I wasn't born in the mainframe time. So I'm born in this time. And right now when you look at this, it's like, well, this is your actual opportunity to contribute to what it should do. So if you want to sit on the sidelines, 'cause we're in that period now, where that isn't the case. And everyone right now is trying to figure out how to make it the case, so they're going to come up with their ways of doing things, and their standards, and then maybe in about ten years, you'll be asked to just use what we've all produced. Or, since you're actually around early enough, you can participate. That's what I tell people, so if you don't want to participate, then you get the checkpoints along the way. Here's what we offer, here's what they offer, you pick one, and then you stay on this digital transformation to the end of time. Or, you jump in, and realize that you're going to have a little bit more control over the way you operate in this landscape. >> Well, jumping in the deep end of the pool has always been the philosophy, get in and learn, and you'll survive, with a lot of community support, Kelsey, thanks for coming on, final question for you, surprise is, you're no longer going to be the co-chair, you've co-chaired up to this point, you've done a great job, what surprised you about KubeCon, the growth, the people? What are some of the things that have jumped out at you, either good, surprise, what you did expect, not expect, share some commentary on this movement, KubeCon and CloudNative. >> Definitely surprised that it's probably this big this fast, right? I thought people, definitely when I saw the technology earlier on, I was like, "This is definitely a winner," "regardless of who agrees." So, I knew that early on. But to be this big, this fast, and all the cloud providers agreeing to use it and sell it, that is a surprise, I figured one or two would do it. But to have all of them, if you go to their website, and you read the words Kubernetes' strong competitors, well alright, we all agree that Kubernetes is okay. That to me is a surprise that they're here, they have booths, they're celebrating it, they're all innovating on it, and honestly, this is one of those situations that, no matter how fast they move, everyone ends up winning on this particular deal, just the way Kubernetes was set up, and the foundation as a whole, that to me is surprising that it's still true, four years later. >> Yeah, I mean rising tide floats all boats, when you have an enabling, disruptive technology like Kubernetes, that enables people to be successful, there's enough cake to be eating for everybody. >> Awesome. >> Kelsey Hightower, big time influencer here, inside theCUBE cloud, computing influencer, also works at Google as a developer advocate, also co-chair of KubeCon 2018, I wish you luck in the next chapter, stepping down from the co-chair role-- >> Stepping down from the co-chair, but always in the community. >> Always in the community. Great voice, great guy to have on theCUBE, check him out online, his great Twitter feed, check him out on Twitter, Kelsey Hightower, here on theCUBE, I'm joined here by Lauren Cooney, be right back with more coverage here at KubeCon 2018, stay with us, we'll be right back. (bright electronic music)

>> Announcer: Live from Copenhagen, Denmark, it's the CUBE, covering KubeCon and Cloud Native Con Europe 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. (busy music) >> Welcome back, everyone, live here in Copenhagen, Denmark, it's the CUBE's coverage of KubeCon 2018. I'm John Furrier, the host of the CUBE, along with Lauren Cooney, who's the founder of Spark Labs. She's been co-host with me two days, two days of wall to wall coverage. Stephan Fabel, Product Strategy Lead at Canonical, is here inside the CUBE, and from San Francisco. Again, welcome to the CUBE, thanks for coming. >> Thank you, thanks so much for having me. >> I've got to, you guys have been around the block, you know about open source software platforms, you get and do it for a while. Interesting time here at KubeCon. Kubernetes, Istio, Kubeflow, Cloud Native, they've still got the brand name CloudNativeCon and KubeCon. Modern application architecture's now in play. I see this notion of an interoperability model coming in that's certainly going to be a de facto standard. People are already kind of declaring it a de facto standard. It really shows a path to multi-cloud, but also frees up developers from a lot of the heavy lifting. Lou Tucker from Cisco was saying they don't want to do networking. Let's just have that be infrastructure as code, that's DevOps, that's what we want. >> Stephan: That is exactly right. >> What are you guys doing here? What's the story with Canonical and how does that fit into the megatrends? >> Yeah, I mean, there's a couple of things that we at Canonical always believe to be one of the core sort of tenets in our distribution of Kubernetes. As you know, we've been very active in this space fairly early on, and have been an active distributor of Kubernetes and a certified distributor of our version of Kubernetes. Pure upstream, remain conformant to the main public clouds, such as to enable that workload migration and mobility from on prem up to any of the other providers to accommodate all kinds of use cases, right. >> You guys made a bet on Kubernetes, obviously, good call. >> Stephan: Right. >> Right. What's the progress now, what's next? Because that's, the bets are paying off. I saw Red Hat had a great bet with what they did with Kubernetes, changed what OpenShift became. You guys had a bet in Kubernetes, what has that become for Canonical? >> Yeah, so based on the pure upstream distribution that we have, we really feel that enabling the ecosystem in a standards compliant way so that all of the landscape projects that are part of the CNCF can be deployed on top of Kubernetes, on top of our distribution of Kubernetes in just the same way that they would be developed or deployed in any of the large containers of service offerings that are out there is one of the big benefits that our customers would gain from using our Kubernetes. >> What's your differentiator for the distribution of Kubernetes that you have versus others? >> Well, there's two. The first one, I think, is the notion that deploying Kubernetes on premise is something that you want to do in a repeatable fashion, operationally efficient with the right capex opex mix, so we believe that there is a place for Kubernetes as a product, just deploy it, it works on any substrate that you've got available to you. But then also, for mainstream America, right, you may want to have a managed service on top of Kubernetes as well. We offer that, too, just a way to get started and kick the tires and see where that takes you as far as the developers are concerned. Now, on prem, you will find that there are a couple of challenges when deploying Kubernetes that are really the key differentiator. The first one, I would say, is things like integration into the storage that's local, integration into the network that's local, and integration into all of those services that should be available in the Cloud Native microservices architecture platform, such as low bouncers, right, elasticity, object store, etc. The second, and most importantly, because it is a key enabler for those next generation workloads, is the GPGPU enablement work that we're doing with partners such as NVIDIA. When you deploy the Canonical distribution of Kubernetes, you actually get the NVIDIA acceleration out of the box the way that NVIDIA envisions this on top of Kubernetes and the way that it is, by the way, being deployed on the public clouds. >> You bring a lot of your goodness to the table inside the Kubernetes distribution. OK, what are some customers doing? Give some use cases of some customers' Kubernetes, what are some of the things that they're doing with it, what's the early indication? What's the feedback? >> Sure. We have a ton of customers that are using our version of Kubernetes to do the machine learning applications and the AI of the next gen workloads in use cases such as smart cities or connected cars, where, when you look at self-driving cars, right, as the next gen that's coming out of the valley, they put in 300,000, 150,000, 400,000 miles a year on the road these days just optimizing the models that are being used to actually take over one day. Enabling those kinds of workloads in a distributed fashion requires DevOps expertise. Now, the people who are actually writing those applications are not DevOps people, they're data scientists, right. They shouldn't have to learn how to deploy Kubernetes, how to create a container and all those things. They should just be able to deploy the application on top an attractive substrate that actually supports that distributed application use case, and so that is where we come in. >> This is interesting, because what you're basically doing is making an application developer a DevOps developer overnight. >> Stephan: That's exactly right. >> That's really important. I was just talking with the co-chair of CNCF. We're talking about, Liz Rice and I were talking about why everyone's so, like, excited here. One of the things I said was, because people who are doing DevOps were hardcore, and they had to build everything from scratch, and all the scar tissue. But the benefits, once you got through the knothole there, the benefits were amazing, right. You go, okay, you don't want to do that again, but now there's a way to make it easier. There's kind of a shared experience even though no one's met each other, so there's kind of a joint community. >> I agree. I think it is increasingly about enabling developers who are experts in their field to actually leverage Kubernetes and the advantages that it brings in a more intuitive fashion. Just take it up a notch. >> How did the Kubernetes vibe integrate in with Canonical? I'm sure, given the background of the company, it probably was a nice fit, people embraced it. You guys were early. >> Stephan: Yeah. >> What's the internal scuttlebutt on the vibe with Kubernetes? >> Oh, we love Kubernetes as a technology. Ubuntu was always close to the developer and close to where the innovation happens. It was a natural fit to actually support all that workflow now in this new world of Kubernetes. We embraced OpenStack for the same reason, and in a similar fashion, Kubernetes has really driven the point home, containerist applications with a powerful orchestration framework such as Kubernetes are the next step for all the developers that are out there, and so as a consequence, this was a perfect match. >> It's also a no-brainer if you think about it, software methodology moving to the next level. This is total step up function for productivity for developers. That's really a key thing. What's your observation of that trend? Because at the end of the day, there's now Kubernetes, which does a lot of great things, but one of the hottest areas is Istio service meshes, and then you've got Kubeflow orchestration, a lot of other things that are happening around Kubernetes. What are you guys seeing that's important for Canonical's customers, what you're doing product wise. Where's the order of operations, what's next? What are you guys focused on, what's the priorities? >> Well, our biggest priority right now is enabling things like Kubeflow, which, by the way, are also using Istio internally, right, to actually enable those data scientists who actually deploy their I workload. We work very closely with Google to try and enable this in an on prem fashion out of the box which is something you can actually do today. >> John: You guys are doing this now inside this. >> We're doing this right now. This is also where we're going to double and triple down. >> This is actually your best practice, too, if you think about it, you want to take it in house, and then get a feel for it. What's the internal vibe on that, positive? >> Oh, absolutely. I mean, we always saw infrastructure as code and actually as intelligent infrastructure as something that we wanted to build our conceptual framework around, so very concretely, right. We've always had this notion of composable building blocks adding up to, sum of one being greater than two, right, like those types of scenarios. Actually using things like Kubernetes as an effective building block to then build out web applications that use things like machine learning algorithms underneath, that's a perfect use case for a next gen workload, and also something that we might use ourselves internally. >> Well, hey, that whole building block thing, it's happening. >> Stephan: Yeah. >> News flash. >> Stephan: Exactly, right? >> I mean, it's almost a pinch me moment for the people in the industry like, oh my god, it's going to go to a whole other level. How do you guys envision that next level going? Beyond the building blocks, is it, I mean, what's the vision that you guys have? Obviously, infrastructure as code programmability, but now, you're talking about infrastructure as code was great, but now you've got microservices growth coming on top of it, it's a services market now. >> It is, it is. I think that the biggest challenge will be the distribution of the workloads, right. You have edge compute coming along in the telco space, you have, like I said, smart cities, right, the sensors will be everywhere, and they will feed data back, and how do you manage that at scale, right? How do you manage that across various different hardware perspectives? We have hardware platforms such as ARM 64 picking up, right, and actually playing a very significant role at the edge, and increasingly, even in the core. We've always believed that providing that software and the distribution of IS such as Kubernetes and others on top of those additional architectures would make a huge difference, and that is clearly paying off. What we see is, the increased need of managing hybrid workloads across multi-cloud scenarios that could be composed of different architectures, not just x86, the future is not homogeneous at all. It'll be all over the place. All those use cases and all those particular situation require that building block principle, like all the way from the OS up to the application. >> John: That's a great use case for containers. Kubernetes, Istio, Kubeflow. >> Absolutely. >> All stacking in line beautifully from an evolution standpoint. I've got to ask you a personal question. I mean, I was at Canonical, great company, I want to thank Canonical for being a sponsor of the CUBE over the years. We've had Mark Shuttleworth on the CUBE had an OpenStack going way back when. You guys are a great participant in the community as a company and the people there been phenomenal. You're new. >> I'm new. >> What attracted you to Canonical? What was the motivating force? What drew you in? You're now running Products, a big job. You've got a lot in front of you. Obviously, it's a great market, so you're a great company. Just share, just color and why Canonical, what attracted you there? >> I've always been a user of Ubuntu, I've been a user since the first hour. I've used Ubuntu in my research. I did robotics based on Ubuntu way before it was cool. I built all kinds of things on top of Ubuntu throughout my entire career. Working for Canonical, which is a company that always exhibited great vision into the future and great predictions into trends that would prove to become true was just, for me, something that was very attractive. >> Their leadership has a good eye on the prize. They had good 20 mile stare, as we say, they can see the roadmap ahead and then make either course corrections or tweaks. >> Yeah. >> Great, awesome. Well, I mean, what's new there? What's your, take a minute to explain what's new at Canonical, role here at KubeCon, what are some of the conversations you're having? >> Yeah, so I mean, for us at KubeCon, it's always been an important part of our outreach to the community, great opportunity for us to have great conversations with our partners in the field. I think it is really about enabling the ecosystem in a more straightforward way. There's no better place to have those types of conversations than here, where everybody comes together and really establishes those relationships. For us, it is about, again, enabling the developer and really staying close to that innovation and supporting that in an optimal way. Yes, I mean, that, to us, is the role that we play. You've got a lot of end users here who are building stuff. >> Oh, absolutely, yeah. They, I mean, I had a talk today about Kubeflow with Google, and after the talk, lots of folks came up to me and said, hey, how can I use this at home, right? >> Sometimes with, whether it's timing, technology, all the above, Kubernetes really hit it strong with the timing, industry was ready for it. Containers had a nice gestation period. People know about containers. >> Stephan: Absolutely. >> Engineers know containers, know about those kinds of concepts. Now we're at a whole other operating environment. >> Stephan: Absolutely. >> You guys are at the forefront. Thanks for coming on the CUBE. >> Oh, thank you, I appreciate it. >> Stephan sharing the perspective, Stephan Fabel. Running Product and Strategy for Canonical, building stuff, this is what's going on in Kubernetes in KubeCon, end users are actually building and orchestrating workloads. Multi-cloud is what people are talking about and the tech to make it happen is here. I'm John Furrier with the CUBE. Stay with us for more live coverage here at KubeCon 2018, part of the CNCF CUBE coverage. We'll be right back after this short break. (busy music)

>> Male Narrator: Live from Copenhagen, Denmark. It's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018, brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Hello everyone, welcome back, this is theCUBE's exclusive coverage of KubeCon 2018. Part of the CNCF Cloud Native Computing Foundation, part of the Linux Foundation, this is theCUBE. I'm John Furrier with co-host, with Lauren Cooney, founder of Spark Labs, helping me out as analyst this week, great to have our next guest, shared acquaintance, Abby Kearns, Executive Director of Cloud Foundry Foundation, Cube alumni, welcome back! >> Thanks for having me back again. >> Got your voice, you're losing your voice from all the talking you're doing here on Cloud Foundry. >> Cloud cloud cloud all the time. >> So we were talking yesterday, I want to get you on because you guys have done some research. >> Yeah. >> On cloud, and we were chatting about, I should give you a plug on the opening segment yesterday about some of the things you're finding about Kubernetes. Certainly in our bubble, it's so passe now, we're moving on to STO and CUBE Flow, but you have research that, you know, is mainstream tech, outside of the bubble we live in, is actually now evolving into the first inning of Kubernetes, if you will. What does the research say, what's that all about? >> Well, the research says, trying not to apologize already, my voice is all over the place, so we've been tracking containers for now almost three years and I remember three years ago, everyone's like, "Okay, well we've talked about Docker for years now, "it's so passe," but when you got beyond the bubbles where tech is, people were just like starting to think about it. And so containers are just now getting to where people are either using them or using them as proof of concept. But Kubernetes has become a really big part of the conversation the last year, and it's continuing to take it by storm, and so we're starting to see organizations that are interested in it, but in terms of adoption and awareness beyond just the core central, there's still a massive education gap there. And a really big opportunity to educate people, not only on these tools, but what they really want to know is how do these tools help them get through their day and accomplish their work? >> So essentially, there's a lag of sequence of early adopters, fast followers, and now mainstream. Mainstream are getting accustomed to containers, now hitting up on Kubernetes, we're still pushing the front line. >> Well I think, you know, we are, and I think this is one of my observations as well, Abby, is that we look at these technologies, right? And I'm in the hallways, and I'm talking to folks in the cab line and things along those lines, and they're just here to actually learn about the technology, about Kubernetes, they actually don't understand it fully yet, and they're trying to figure out really what to do with it, and their companies have sent them here. And then it's, you know, you talk to the folks that are, you know, kind of were here for the long haul and were there at the beginning of CNCF and things along those lines, and they're like, "Oh yeah, everyone's adopted it," right? So you've got these two spectrums and I think my question to you is, what do you think is needed for this to really cross the chasm? >> Well, I'll actually answer that with another piece of data We do global research, and one of the things we found, we ask about, "What are your priorities for the next "couple of years?" and resoundingly across every persona, so developers, operators, IT decision makers, executives, their top three priorities for the next two years is continuous delivery. So let's think about that: continuous delivery for me is a priority; building that culture change is a priority; and so the tech is there to supplement that. But the real work, the hard work, is a priority, and I think that's exactly where it should be. So as these organizations really implement that continuous delivery methodology, they're going to pull these technologies in to supplement that. >> So it's not a technology problem, it's a people problem. But your point is, to the industry, let's be realistic and understand the segments that are adopting at what pace, matching education or evangelism or transformation at the right piece of the journey. >> Yeah, I mean all this tech, even Cloud Foundry, is a supplemental tool. >> Yeah. >> The hard work is really continuous delivery, building in that culture change, making software a core part of your business, making technology part of your day-to-day conversation, and that heavy lift has to come in order for any of these technologies to be successful. >> You guys have done a great job, I just want to say, Cloud Foundry, I want to give you some props. Congratulations on the work you've done. Take a minute to talk about some of the success. You're an ingredient in a lot of successful applications out there; what are some of the stats? How many people are using Cloud Foundry? What's some of the uptick, share some of the numbers of the performance with Cloud Foundry. >> Well, I mean we're in use of over half the Fortune 500 across every industry; what's been so phenomenal and so awesome about Cloud Foundry, and we really saw this at Summit, is all the industries that are using this to change. But what was interesting about our last summit, which we just had a couple of weeks ago, is all of these companies want to get on stage and not talk about the tech; they want to talk about the culture change. You know, hearing Boeing get on stage and say, "Actually, you know what the real work is "is the transformation we had to undergo "in order to do this work," and hear that over and over again, and it's so awesome to be part of that change because technology needs to be there to supplement that change and be part of that. But it's really great to see this come into fruition, like hearing the stories from Home Depot and Comcast and US Air Force and how it's fundamentally changing their businesses and helping them get out the door at scale, I mean that's really where the cool stuff happens. >> You've had great success there, and a lot of end users too, it's not like a bunch of one-offs. >> No. >> So how's the summit last week in Boston? >> It was amazing. We had half of our attendees at our summit are end users. And you know, the big high I get is like, hearing everyone talk about what they're doing and "This is what I did!" and stuff you've never heard of. Like, "Oh, I didn't realize you were using that," and "Oh, that's a really great way to use it "in very inventive ways," and so it really just refreshes you, like "Oh, this is what matters." The users and how they're using it and what they're going to do with the tech, I mean, isn't that why we're all here, right? And it's great, and they're creating such amazing technologies that it makes you energized about what's going on. >> Yeah, and I think it's amazing to me, cause I was actually at the Cloud Foundry summit as well, and there was one customer, I can't remember the name that got on stage, and they were using like, they had 2100 end users or something like that, developers, their company actually using Cloud Foundry, and I think that was the number, and I think it was really tremendous to see how many people inside of one company are actually using the technology across the board. It was really great. >> I mean, this is all about, I mean we're at a modern software era, and this is a whole new guard coming on board, and it's a whole new architecture. >> And it's a whole new way of thinking about it. Like, you know right now, we talk about how tech and there's a gap and we're pushing the tech and people are going to get there, but it's not going to be too long before the enterprises are pushing back and saying, "Hey, this is what I need, here's where I am, "I'm running at a scale you didn't think about yet." You know we're running, we have a lot of users that are running tens of thousands and thousands of applications: what about when they're in the hundreds of thousands of applications, and what does that look like? And they're saying, "Well I'm going to do this, "and here's what I need to do." >> There are going to be a lot of microservices. Abby, I got to ask you to end the segment. Thanks for coming on, I know you were rushed to come on, I appreciate you taking the time, you're super busy. What's your priorities for next year? Obviously you got a lot of successes under your belt. What's next, what are you going to check off the list this year? >> Well, inner operability is a big theme for me this year. And what does that mean, that means building bridges to other technologies and other projects, like the amazing work that's happening in CNCF and all those great technologies, so making sure that when those technologies mature, how do we bring those to the enterprise, and then really continuing to work on an ecosystem and work with our members and to really get more contributors around the table. >> Awesome, developers and contributors, dev plus contribute, thanks for coming on. >> My pleasure. >> Thanks Abby. >> You're contributing your insight and I know you've got the voice going, but appreciate you taking the time, so Kube conversations here at theCUBE here in Denmark for KubeCon 2018, part of CNCF. I'm John Furrier with Lauren Cooney, we'll be right back after this short break. (techno music)

>> Announcer: Live from Copenhagen, Denmark, it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018 brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its Ecosystem Partners. >> Okay welcome back everyone, this is theCUBE's exclusive coverage here in Copenhagen, Denmark for KubeCon 2018 part of the CNCF, I'm John Furrier the co-host of theCUBE with Lauren Cooney co-host this week founder of Spark Labs. Our next guest is Cheryl Hung, Product Engineering Manager, StorageOS, she has a lot of DevOps, she runs the CloudNative or founder of the CloudNative meetup in London. >> Exactly. >> It's great to have you on. >> Thank you, it's great to be on. >> So, you've drank the koolaide on CloudNative, so we're loving the trend, the trend is your friend here. So CloudNative's super hot and you're doing StorageOS as the name of the company, which is a DevOps oriented that your obviously using Kubernetes. First question, how excited are you with the CloudNative trend right now, because people are getting it with Kubernetes, what's your reaction to the momentum? >> So before I joined my current company, I was an Engineer at Google for about five years and I'm probably a CloudNative in the true sense of the word and that I joined Google when I was 21, I don't remember a time before what we think of is containers and orchestrators and I use Borg, which was the internal predecessor to Kubernetes, so when I came out and I started looking into Docker and Kubernetes I thought, this is obvious, this is just how software is built and run, right? >> John: Yeah. >> It was so interesting to realize no, the industry's not there. >> What did you find? What was it like go out and say wait a minute, you do all that? What was it like? >> As I said I'd completely forgotten that this how software was done before, so when I came out, I was like this totally makes sense to me, this is very, very natural to me that you run software packaged in a container and then you orchestrate it across data centers and across machines with something like Kubernetes now. But seeing the whole industry move to this mindset has been really impressive, particularly for the CNCF they've put a lot of effort into spreading this paradigm and getting the adoption. >> John: They've done a good job. Before we dig in I want some DevOps questions I have for you because this is such an exciting topic. Take a minute to explain StorageOS, what the company does and your role there. >> StorageOS has been around for a couple of years, two, three years now and one of the biggest problems with containers is their designed to be stateless, they're designed so that you don't have to worry about running containers in different environments or moving them around, they should always run the same. So, but clearly there is a need for storage, if you're doing something interesting with your application, you have to make a decision about where to actually store the data at the end of the day. So, StorageOS, we do persistent storage for containers and it's an abstraction layer for storage that runs on top of any infrastructure could be on prem, could be one of the cloud providers, could be virtual machines and we provide storage to pods and to the applications and so the containers that are running and we also manage replication and high availability, among other things. My role that is officially Product Manager, I do a ton of different things, because we're a 15 person start-up. So I actually manage DevOps Engineers, I do public speaking, I write and speak about storage and containers and cloud, I write all the technical documentation for the product and very excitingly as of yesterday in fact, we announced our GA product, so now I can finally say we have a real genuine product that's out there and we think it's ready to go out publicly and live. >> That's great. >> Very, very exciting. >> So, you're not busy at all is what you basically are saying. >> I do a million things, but I have a great time. >> That's awesome. So what is with your one data release and the product is actually out the door, what kind of applications are you supporting, for example? What do you see as the kind of use cases of folks that are coming in and using, your solution? >> The biggest one that is not yet a solved problem is the database use case. So transactional database is like MySQL and Postgres and so on. The other use case that I see a lot is with CICD Pipelines, so people running Jenkins to build their software and they need to store the artifacts off the software somewhere and it's quite difficult to do that at the moment. So those I think are our two priorities. >> That's great. >> In DevOps world right now, one of the things that's super exciting is the whole infrastructorous code thing is happening, you mentioned that this is people are getting it. The challenge of staffing up is hard, you guys are wearing a lot of different hats as startups do, but as companies start to grow and do more CloudNative true CloudNative, you got to hire people and people got to learn. What are you finding is a good mechanism for learning? Obviously, you do a meet-up, that's a great face to face group opportunity, what are some of the things that people can do to get involved, how are you guys recruiting, how do you manage the team, is it small teams, whats the workflow look like? If you can share some insight into that, that'd be very helpful. >> Yeah so, I'm the hiring manager for DevOps Engineers and when I started looking for this I thought what would be great is if I could find someone who has some experience with running Kubernetes in production. Clearly that's very difficult because Kubernetes has only been around for really a year or two and widely adopted. Meet-ups are a brilliant way for people to get into this space, find out what the community is talking about and then also to learn and to teach others and I really encourage people to go and do public speaking themselves and become known in the community for it. Aside from that I think DevOps is a very worldly defined term, which is one of the difficulties with finding people. DevOps encompasses everything from people who are traditionally Linux's Admins to people who really do understand the container mindset and the orchestrated mindset. So I think for me, my best channel to find the right people has always been either face to face, people I know or else looking for things like Kubernetes or other orchestrators. >> So let me ask you how the Kubernetes, we've been given some good hat tips and props to the CNCF for doing a good job with Kubernetes, what is it about Kubernetes and the CNCF that's working in your mind? Why is it working so well? Obviously it's successful, its got the kind of defacto standard because a lot of people love it, what are they doing right and what is the work areas that you see are opportunities for people to innovate? >> So the CNCF has a couple of different branches, one thing that I think they did really well at the beginning was they decided that the technical direction and the vision of the projects would be set amongst the community rather than being controlled by one of Google or Microsoft or Red Hat or one of the big, big names in this. So separating the governing board from the technical oversight committee is something I think they did really right at the beginning and also encouraging the meet-ups and the face to face and the community growth. So in terms of innovation in this sphere, there's a lot of unsolved problems, we have a absolute massive tools out there and we don't have best practices and a lot of experience in how it's done. I work for StorageOS, because storage is one of those unsolved problems for containers, security is another one, Servilous is really coming and there's a lot of opportunity now to get involved in those conversations and steer towards where you want your own community and your own people to be. >> That, that is great and your doing, I've been in Open-source for quite awhile and the strategy is spot on. So, what do you see in terms of inside of the CNCF, projects that you're excited about or things that you want to get engaged with further or just in general, what's really cool? >> On a personal, technical level I think Servilous is very, very exciting, I still think of myself as an Engineer in many ways so I think the developer experience with that is great. One thing that I've seen new a KubeCon is there's a lot of focus now on getting the new first-time contributors, the mentors expanding the community looking beyond just can you submit code to how do we onboard and bring in more people so we have a more diverse set of opinions and feelings that can come in. >> Training, setting people up, open arms. >> Yeah, yeah, these things don't happen by themselves, they do take effort and I'm really glad that Open-source is really, really flown itself full heartedly into those kind of efforts. >> Cheryl great to have you on theCUBE, appreciate your commentary, my final question for you is for the folks watching who couldn't come today, this week, what's going on here? Share the vibe, share the story, what's this top story, what's the most important thing happening this week that people should know about? >> If I see one trend in people that I talk to, it's Kubernetes is getting is getting boring (laughing). What's the next big thing, service measures seem to be a hot topic, a lot of people are talking about them. But it's quite, I think it's great actually that Kubernetes is now becoming boring, people are standardizing on one thing so we're not duplicating a bunch of effort and there's a lot of buzz in the hallway about okay, we're fully bought into, bought into Kubernetes now we know this is success the CNCF has graduated Kubernetes. So now what are the difficult problems? Now it's about communicating between on the the networking side between federating between clusters across different regions. Those are all things that are not yet solved problems and that makes them quite an interesting challenge. >> You need boring to get to the exciting stuff, because in this case is good. >> Boring really is good. >> You're rallying around something solid to go attack other opportunities. >> I think it's just a trend of we have innovation at the very cutting edge beginning, people rally around and they become standers then they become commodities and people no longer find those exciting, but that allows us to work on even more exciting new things. >> Cheryl great stuff, congratulations on your meet-up and your success and your start-up shipping the products. This is theCUBE bringing you all the action here in Copenhagen, I'm John Furrier and Lauren Cooney here Cube coverage continues, stay with us for more after this short break. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: From Copenhagen, Denmark, it's the Cube. Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018, brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and it's ecosystem partners. >> Hello everyone, welcome back to the Cube's exclusive coverage here in Copenhagen, Denmark for KubeCon 2018, part of the CNCF, the Cloud Native Compute Foundation, part of the Linux Foundation, I'm John Furrier cohost of the Cube, here with my cohost this week Lauren Cooney, the founder of Spark Labs. Got two great guests in the industry here, Lew Tucker, the CTO of Cloud Computing for Cisco Systems and Aparna Sinha who's the group project manager for Google Cloud, thanks for coming on, great to see you guys. >> Great to be here >> Thanks for having us. >> So obviously the two big players, you've got networking, you've got moving up the stack and Google Cloud with all the goodness you have hundreds of people here at this show. Cloud native big, you're cloud native, >> Aparna: Yeah. >> You guys are running the networks a lot of stuff's happening, but the big story's the Kubernetes de facto standard position that's been echoed by many people here, Kubernetes tightly controlled core with a lot of innovation going on around Kubernetes. >> Aparna: Yes. >> When I hear words like de facto standards, it reminds me of the old networking days when the OSI model and the TCPIP was forming. Massive shifts at that point. >> Lew: Yeah, yeah. >> Almost a seminal moment now. >> Yeah but in fact I think in open source it's a different notion than in the old days of standards. Here we've got multiple communities, multiple companies that are working together to create a common platform and that's what I think the success of open source is about. So actually, Kubernetes coming into CNCF has really makes that possible and we just graduated it so we should have a celebration around Kubernetes now has graduated in terms of a CNCF project. >> Yeah and you know one think I would say about de facto standard, I don't take that for granted. Kubernetes is built as a platform that runs anywhere across on premises, data centers, public clouds, runs anywhere but, you know that it will be or is a de facto standard is something that we don't take for granted. We make sure in the community that we're working on increase support for, for example different types of storage with a storage interface standard, different types of networking, with a CNI different types of run times, so establishing those interfaces and establishing those standards is key to making it the platform. But that's certainly the potential of Kubernetes is to be-- >> Yeah I mean it's not the end game, it's the beginning. >> Aparna: It is. >> And the nurturing and making sure that ecosystem with thrive is important. And that's why I want to get your thoughts, 'cause you've got Google and Cisco here so lets talk about first the relationship, you guys are working together. >> Lew: Absolutely, yeah. >> Talk about the relationship between Google and Cisco. >> Sure, I think it came about because we're both recognizing that enterprises for example are incorporating cloud computing as a part of their overall IT strategy. And so they needed to find a way, how can they actually make that happen without companies that are working in both of those areas getting together. So it's very natural I think for the two of us to sort of come together because this way we can take our enterprise customers and using Kubernetes as sort of the foundational platform make it so that they can run applications wherever they want, they can run it in their private data center they can run it in Google Cloud, and we can make this now, to provide a lot of the networking so that you can extend private networks into Google Cloud and vice versa, so I think it's a marriage made in heaven in that way. >> Aparna you're reaction to the partnership. >> Yeah, you know, Google is a very developer friendly, developer focused company, always has been, you know the majority of Google is actually developers so it's a company for developers by developers and you know with Google Cloud actually the irony is we're also a networking company and so there's a nice affinity working with Cisco. Our DNA is very much open source, there's multiple projects that have come out of Google that have been very successful open source projects. I mean Tenser Flow, Kubernetes I think is unique in that we've really created and participated and built a community around it and so with this partnership, we're really excited to have Cisco also be part of the community, certainly with Kubernetes but also the Istio Project. And a lot of the projects in cloud native have come from Google's experience running services at global scale. Kubernetes certainly came that way from the Borg heritage and then Istio also from, from what we call one platform, internally to manage service. >> That's a great point, you brought up scale and it's interesting, it's almost like you have two large scale companies here, you have Cisco with massive scale footprint of enterprises from day one, routers you need to move packets around the internet. You guys have built scale for Google with millions of services out there, millions of users, I mean it's unprecedented. So now as you come into the enterprise, the Cisco relationship is an opportunity to blend the best of Google with the footprint at Cisco, how is that going to work, how's that working and what's the vision? I mean obviously it's a nice match, you've got a great footprint in the enterprise, you've got massive scale with the cloud, bringing that in, moving it out, hybrid cloud obviously, is that the? >> Yeah well we often notice for example as I sort of said, the foundational piece is actually running Kubernetes everywhere and so we just recently announced a Cisco container platform which is based on Kubernetes, that means that enterprises now can develop applications in Google Cloud and then run them in their enterprises or vice verse and then on top of that and we're adding in the networking capabilities, through things such as CSR and things like that to allow us to connect both the enterprise and their public cloud running Kubernetes and then Istio as we're mentioning is this thing on top and I'm, as you know, a big fan of where that really is going to take us because I think one of the things that enterprises want to be able to do is that they want to be able to consume services out of Google Cloud, whether it be in kind of terms of the data services or increasingly AI, intelligence service, Tenser Flow, be able to use as a part of their enterprise applications and so I have within my team for example contributed both in terms of what we're doing in terms of Istio, Kubernetes, I've got people on my team who are bringing for example IPB6 into Kubernetes, that's important because, guess what, service providers also want to move into a container world. And then also Cube Flow and so all of these things are starting to come together so that you can start building applications as an assembly of these services and many other services that I will see coming from the public cloud and Google in particular. >> Aparna, I want to ask you, because this is important to distinguish this Istio trend because we asked a lot of people at the Cube here and in our reporting, okay what's next after Kubernetes? If you have a de facto standard, you have stuff coming around it, an eco system, everyone talks about service mesh and Istio project. >> Aparna: Yeah. >> Now the best thing about infrastructure as code which is dev ops in the cloud is you can make things programmable and automate, so if you look at what Istio's doing, it feels like an application benefit but also an automated networking concept with services. >> Aparna: Sure. >> So you got kind of a new dynamic going on where a lot of dynamic things are happening a lot of services are being provisioned, maybe for the first time. >> Aparna: Yeah, yeah. >> So how do you instrument it? This is going to be a future area of innovation. >> So again going back to that standard, right? That platform that runs everywhere, why is it a standard, why is it becoming a standard and I hear this from our customers, our users, it's because they don't have to train multiple times for multiple different environments, they can really scale their workforce, they can hire people that they trained up in Kubernetes and they can scale that workforce so it applies regardless of where they go and it gives them that mobility and if you think about the eco system around Kubernetes right so Kubernetes is one project, a major big project but then the eco system around Kubernetes has really exploded in the last year it has gone from 4000 projects to 15000 projects and I was looking through those projects and seeing you know, which are the ones that have the most stars and there's actually three projects that stood out as having more than 3000 stars but being new, like in the last year and Istio was at the top of that list and obviously it's very popular in terms of the number of stars but it's only one year old and I don't know how much people know that. >> And I think it's interesting, 'cause I'm going to throw kind of a curve ball here at you and say, you know I'm hearing that the service mesh is actually, people are using it. >> Aparna: Yes. >> But it's actually hasn't been deployed into production, is that the case? >> Aparna: It's starting to be. >> Okay. >> So on GKE, Google Kubernetes Engine we've got customers that are deploying Istio, it's starting. >> Lauren: Okay. >> Again it's a one year old project and then also on premise, using the open source and we've got a program called the EEPE program it's like an early program, they're deploying and using Istio and it tends to be a very nice attach to Kubernetes. >> So what is the use case for that? >> One of the things to understand, it is very new and less than a year old, we're not even at a one dot out yet but the components that go into it, Envoy for example has been battle tested because Istio's made up of, just to get technical, in terms of having proxies that make up the data plane and that's battle testing or whatever. So now we're adding a control plane on top of that, where policy, telemetry, observability, all of that comes to the fore. That's what's new. So bringing that together and so people have and Istio's not the only service mesh, service meshes have actually been made up of these proxies and have you manage them, Istio's just seems to be a better way to the community is agreeing-- >> A proxy can be very inefficient, so I want to just ask a question on that because one of the things that I'm trying to understand is for the average person in tech, not the inside baseball, they're trying to understand why is Istio so powerful. >> Aparna: Yes. >> So is there, what paid points are they solving? >> The easiest way to think about that is we've moved to a microservices architecture and that's so that every development team can focus on their particular area of expertise, they don't want to have to learn networking and everything else, so what we've done is we've offloaded all of the issues around how do you do load balancing, circuit breakers and telemetry off to a service mesh, that allows the developer to dramatically increase their productivity because they're only focused on their one application area and now the operations team brings that together through the networking concept. >> Aparna: Yes. >> So they built a distributed application without having to know very much about the specificity. >> Yes, it's very much that separation of concern and you know Kubernetes has the same principle, it separates you know the infrastructure from the applications and what Istio does, it allows you to manage those applications at scale, visualize them, make them secure and to control them in a scalable way, so you're not writing the service management pieces into the application and the developer is therefor freed from that burden and the application operations team can then manage things like distributing certificates or rotating certificates, right? Those are things you need to do across all of your services. >> So you're bringing us on that system and I know you guys run at scale, hundreds of thousand of services, if not more, I don't know what the number is, millions whatever it is. >> Aparna: Four million containers. >> Tons. >> Aparna: A week! >> So when you talk about that, what I'm hearing and I've talked to the SRE, site reliable engineers before, the roll of the admin is gone to more of an operator and then the operator role is less of an operating, 'cause it's operating only on exception, 'cause if you got policy in the control plane, that seems to be where the action is, is that, am I getting that right? How do you explain that notion of less admin, more operational kind of-- >> There is a change in roles, the administration of the application is not so application specific if you will, right? And I think the best analogy to it is the way we do development at Google, everybody is a developer right? And they write their services but there's a lot of common infrastructure that you do not replicate so for example storage, monitoring, logging, you know publishing your API, you know quotas, rate limiting, chargebacks, billing, all of that is common infrastructure, you write your service, it is immediately using all of that infrastructure, you don't build those things into your application and that has so many benefits, you know you can write your service and it can be global. >> So on time savings, no brainer, automation-- >> And when you change any one of those services that has a monitoring or anything, now you don't have to tell the application development team that that change is happening. >> So this is infrastructure as code, passes the test right? You can program the infrastructure. >> This is services, this is a services world, rather than infrastructure world or an application siloed world, this is the world of services, that's really what we're here for. >> What's the growth in microservices? I'm seeing different stats, can you just give an order of magnitude, just from your own personal experience in looking at the market, how fast is the notion of microservices growing? 'Cause this is really the proxy for the cloud native shift. And you guys are certainly micro services oriented, we talk about this all the time, any data or any anecdotes around growth of microservices? >> Well I mean there's a lot of surveys and most of the surveys point towards, I think containers are a good proxy, you know 88 percent of enterprises are using containers, it's becoming, whether you move to the cloud or not actually containers are basically a way of doing things more repeatedly, giving you efficiency from an infrastructure perspective giving you reliability so that you know you can basically exchange out the hardware and your container environment is still resilient and then giving you that developer productivity, that's becoming something that enterprises are embracing, it seems from these surveys and I think that's the building block for microservices. >> And I think many people are already moved, remember Soho, we've got history here, so we've been trying to move towards this world in which it is a services world and before it was much too heavyweight Ectimel RPC and everything that made it, Soap and everything else, difficult to do these things. Now things have gotten much much easier. So a lot of people are actually doing a services architecture already. And the microservices I think is just a more formal way of doing that at a finer grain and when you get to this finer grain, that's when you need something like a service mesh now to pull things back together again. >> Alright, lets do a plug for the service mesh, people that are watching have got to be intrigued by this conversation, what's the state of the service mesh piece, lot of stars so good good community vibe going on, how do they get involved, what's needed, where's the white space, where's the work being done? >> And I think also John, what skills are needed to actually as a developer, you know we've got a lot of new folks here at that show that are just learning about this and what do they need to know to actually do this and bring this back to their companies. >> If they're, so first of all it's at Istio.io so that's the place to start, there's a lot of very good documentation there, there's very simple examples that can be downloaded so that you can try it out, you can try it out we're using containers so on top of cumulating, you can do it on your laptop, you can do it in the cloud so we're in this wonderful age of the internet in fact that most of the learning is done online and that you can get everything you need online you don't have to walk away from the show with a CD pack or anything else like that. So I would encourage developers to just simply try it out by themselves. Remember then there's Istio developers, people that are actually contributing code into Istio, that's sort of a specialized group of people who are very interested in it. More people, it'll be 10 to one users of Istio than there will be actually of the Istio developer community and the Istio developer community I urge people to get involved 'cause that's where we need to expand the number of use cases and make sure that we're covering the things that are important across the board for variety. >> Yeah, I mean Istio's not that difficult to learn, it's an L7 Proxy. It has a great affinity to Kubernetes project so if you are using Kubernetes or are involved in Kubernetes project then it basically is something that you can deploy into your Kubernetes cluster and you can get started with it. There are a number of trainings and workshops actually at this conference, there were a couple of Istio trainings and there are many tracks and then there's training online, there's a tutorial on the Google site with the GKE and I think on many other companies as well to get started with Istio but it's basically a proxy and in, it's not actually only limited to Kubernetes, you can run it in a VM environment, you can, it basically any service, it is a proxy that intercepts and you know basically can provide load balancing, traffic managing, quotas, all of those things that you expect of a rich proxy and so if you have a networking background it's actually very easy to pick it up. >> That's great, now when you're talking about these kind of, you know, these proxy and things along those lines, I'm sure that there are use cases that are the first ones to pop up, can you talk a little bit about that. >> Yes, I think the first use case of Istio is actually Canary, Canary deployment, so being able to route traffic from one version of your application to another version of your application. Make sure that that, lets say it's an upgrade, you know, make sure that that's running well and then gradually route more of you're traffic. So that's a very developer centric use case that appeals and then of course security. And that's a less developer centric, more control and ops perspective and then observability and again, control, also an ops perspective, those are the three main use cases. >> Okay. >> That's great, that's awesome and you have Cube Flow going on here, you guys had a couple of Google folks on. >> Yes, so I mentioned three projects that are the top projects, Istio number one, number two is Cube Flow, again within the last year, more than 3000 stars and then the last one is Scaffold. >> Great stuff, I love the programmability, automation. >> And one of the things that we mentioned before, because when people hear proxy, they think of the old time, actually when you've used a proxy and a DNS which now it's very high performance and one of the things that you're seeing also, it connects up with other open source projects such as FDIO which is VPP, which is now being used, integrated into envoy which is a proxy, so the data plane itself, I think is going to be more efficient than people trying to do their own network. >> That's a good point Lew, I mean people think proxies are inefficient, it's a hack, a bridge between point A and point B. >> Yes, that was a lot of the initial skepticism around this, so you know, this was about two years ago we were sitting around saying okay, Kubernetes, what's next? And we came up with a open service broker, so you can consume services and then the early start of Istio, starting with Envoy and then building the service mesh around that and that was indeed one of the early concerns as well, will it be too heavy, will it add latency, will there be performance bottle neck, I think a lot of that concern has been addressed and it will continue to be addressed. >> Well we got to wrap up be I want to get some comments from you guys, reaction to the show here in Europe, obviously Google is in big force, Istio is prime time, you predicted that in Austin, it looks like it's tracking beautifully, reactions, what did you walk away with here from this event? What observations, revelations, surprises, share some color for the folks that couldn't make it. >> We were talking earlier about the number of use cases now that we've seen that our customers are coming in and describing how they're using Kubernetes and other of the technologies making up the cloud native world. And that allows people to learn and so that's what I'm always excited, because I can sit there in the audience and you can see everybody else going oh, I'm going to apply that to what I'm trying to do and just the breath now of-- >> John: So you're surprised at the uptake, or you're happy with the uptake, that's your reaction? >> Yeah and I think you would agree too. >> Yeah, I think the reason I come to KubeCon is to meet users, it's a user conference, and with each passing KubeCon, it becomes more and more user-centric so some of the talks here, the takeaways that I had, you know the folks from Spotify talked about how users need to get more involved and the benefits of getting more involved in the community, that was a very inspiring talk. Another talk yesterday talked about how Kubernetes needs to be a platform for everything, not just cloud native, but actually also Legacy and so these are points. And then the third piece, a lot of users talking about multicloud, right and making that a reality, these are things that I'm taking away as you know, users are doing this today. >> John: Multicloud certainly is a path, people have that outcome in mind. >> Yes. >> Doing the work now to get there. Thanks for coming on, Aparna and Lew. >> Thank you. >> Great to have you guys, you're awesome, senior folks in the industry, experienced executives, driving the change here, cloud native, microservices architecture, whole new modern paradigm shift in software architecture, here at KubeCon, Kubernetes, Istio, hot projects, Cube Flow and more here on the Cube, live coverage here in Copenhagen, stay with us for more coverage, after this short break. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: Live from Copenhagen, Denmark. It's theCUBE covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back everyone. This is the theCUBE's exclusive coverage here in Copenhagen, Denmark for KubeCon 2018, part of the Cloud Native Compute Foundation, also known as CNCF. I'm John Furrier with Lauren Cooney, the founder of Spark Labs. We have two of the main players here at the Linux Foundation, CNCF, Dan Kohn, Cube alumni, Executive Director, and Dee Kumar, Vice President of product marketing. Great to see you guys. Welcome back. >> Oh, thrilled to be here. >> So you guys, not to build your head up a little bit, but you're doing really well. Successful, we're excited to be a part of the seeing, witnessing the growth. I know you work hard, we've talked in the past and off camera. Just, it's working. CNCF's formula is working. The Linux Foundation has brought a lot to the table, you've taken the ball with this cloud-native community, with Kubernetes' growth, good actors in the community, a lot of things clicking on all cylinders. >> Thanks, we're thrilled to be here. And, yeah, 43 hundred people is the biggest ever for KubeCon CloudNativeCon. It's actually the biggest conference the Linux Foundation has ever thrown, which is incredibly exciting, and also here in Europe to show it's not just a North American focus. >> And you've got the big North American event in Seattle. What's the over-under on that? Six thousand, eight thousand? >> (laughing) I think we could probably go a little higher. 75 hundred we're going to max out, so we'll see if we hit that or not. But we had 42 hundred six months ago when you were with us in Austin, and so we think a ton of people, you know people joke about Seattle being the cloudy city, because it's not just Amazon there, but Microsoft, Google, Oracle, and IBM all have huge Cloud offices. >> Yeah, and University of Washington has an amazing program in computer science, a lot of tech there. Seattle's certainly an awesome city. I got to ask you, you know, you do a lot of work with the members in the organization. Obviously the success is well-documented. We're seeing that Kubernetes is now going to main stream tech. And still learning, a lot of people learning about Kubernetes, but there's a lot going on. You talk to a lot of people. What's the vibe? What's the conversation like? What is actually happening in the membership organization that's notable, that you'd like to share and get the word out on? >> Actually Dee's been working directly with all the members since we've been putting together our marketing plan. >> So one thing I can do share, in terms of the vibe, and some of the feedback that we have received from the members, is they really, I think it's about what we've heard from all the keynotes and the sessions, it's about really us coming together as a community and defining, what is Cloud-native? And what's that journey? And so as a step towards that, what we have done as in CNCF is we have launched the interactive landscape which kind of showcases a lot of the member work that we are jointly working on. And secondly, the trail map is our attempt to define what is the cloud-native journey. So we've kind of highlighted about 10 steps and the processes to get to a cloud-native journey. And I think the next steps, in terms of the vision and the goal, is to really engage the member community and to start building on that. What is containerization? What is orchestration? Microservices? CICD? And Dan, I think in his keynote, touched upon continuous integration. We really need to figure out integration, testing, development, deployment, and what does that, all that narrative mean, and how as a community we have a common understanding and a framework. And then the next step would again be in terms of building use cases, and also really showcasing some heroes in the community which is our developers. So our developers and contributors end of the day are the heart and soul of the cloud-native ecosystem. So we really want to bring their stories, match that up with our end users. We're seeing incredible growth with just leveraging the cloud-native different types of architectures. >> One of the things I'm looking at, the cloud-native Interactive Landscape map, which is, by the way, pretty impressive. The market cap numbers in the trillions, of course includes Amazon, (Dee laughing) so let's take that out, but good healthy distribution. I want to talk about the startups, because they are going to be the lifeblood of the future. The total funding to date is 4.7 billion of cloud-native compute foundation members, startups. Significant investment. They got to build, they're building products. What do they care about? What is the most important thing for them? You guys, can you share what they're asking for, is there a profile that you're seeing emerge? Because there's a new era coming, right? It's the new guard. The new guard of startups. >> There's incredible diversity of startups there, and what I love about the startup ecosystem, kind of like the open source ecosystem, is they're all looking for their niche. And so there's kind of an evolutionary strategy for it. But it's really amazing to see different approaches towards attacking different markets, consulting specific products and such. One of the neat things about CNCF is that we like to think of ourselves as a commercially friendly startup. All 20 of our projects, commercially friendly open source foundation. All 20 of our projects use the Apache 2.0 license which allows you to create a commercial product on top of it. We are very cognizant of the fact that most large enterprises are going to want support from a business startup or an established industry player and in many cases, both, in order to roll this out. And so we love the fact that that's available if they need it, but they also could download the projects directly and work with it themselves if they want. >> Well I think that's an important point. I always want to highlight, because what you said I think is really, I think, is a big part of the success. You guys do a great job of balancing community, and the role of the people within the community, and the traditional Linux Foundation mission of having great open source. But at the same time, you're like, hey, it's okay to have a business model with Open. And I think this new era is being highly accelerated on commercialization. And I think this is, I think, a unique part of the digital fabric, the digital businesses of the future. And Cloud hits that right on. So that's, to me, a great step. The question I have for you is, how do you keep it going? What's next? Because the bar is high. Now you got to do more. What's the strategy? What's the plan? >> So one thing we can do is, like a highlighter to get back to the cloud-native journey, as a story. Today we kind of have a lot of emphasis on Kubernetes. And it's just not limited to containers and orchestration, and we really want to expand the narrative and the story to address all the 20, 19 different projects that is all housed under the cloud-native computing foundation umbrella. And we really want to bring out use cases, value props, and I think there's a lot to be told here. Like how do we address security? There's a lot of sessions and keynotes today that bring about security applications, testing, CICD, how does it develop a community, can enable all these different amazing technologies. So we've had a lot of talk about it, but I think it's something that startups that I've been talking to have asked me to help or the CNCF in terms of just simplifying these conversations. Like how do we make it simple? And to your earlier point, like they want to start with simplicity and that eventually leads to monetization, and they want to take the fabric from CNCF so they can then start building a narrative in terms of a solution, and what does that mean in terms of value creation? >> Exactly and I actually work with a couple startups inside of the CNCF, and work with them on their business model, and what they're doing, and what is that narrative that they're going to start telling? You know, I think it's interesting because you have all these communities actually coming together in that ecosystem. And when you take a look at that, you probably, you talk about use cases. And I think those are really what the developers are going to be driven towards is their, you know, onboarding to this platform, basically. And what are the top use cases that you guys see kind of across the board? >> So I think there are three main use cases and I think our partner did a great job of summarizing that today. So I think it's primarily security, because that's the enterprise audience, and most Fortune 100 companies are dealing with that. Second, I would say it's about agility. It's about who gets to market first, and back to the startup point. It's about addressing that. Thirdly I would just say it's scalability. I think it's about going beyond, you know, a science project where you just have Kubernetes, or a couple containers deployed in your own QA or staging environments. And people are really thinking about, how do you adopt Kubernetes on a large scale? How do you take it to a production type of environment? And what does that mean? And I think, today, "Financial Times" Sarah Wells, she did an amazing job of just taking us through what it took them in terms of getting from where they were and how they had to deal with, you know, all the challenges and I think she made a great point about technologies can be boring. So I think that was some of the key takeaways in terms of the three use cases that we could build on collectively would be agility, scalability, and security. >> Well, you're also changing the conversation, really. You know, we had the great customer of, you know, Kubernetes on here earlier. And they were talking about, really, how their whole infrastructure, they don't have to worry about it, it's, you know, based on AWBS now and they were phenomenal and, really, what the point was is that, you know, they are not just an energy company, they're actually a technology company and a software company. And that's really what, you know, folks want to be working with today. And are you seeing more of that as, you know, with the startups, is that they have the opportunity to start shifting their companies more in the direction of technology for the end users? >> Absolutely. Yeah. But it is amazing the just range of different approaches that they're taking. But we think there's every level of the stack. We have this, you referred to the Interactive Landscape before, and I will give the quick pitch, it's a l.cncf.io, but it is amazing to see all of the different layers of which these startups are operating. >> And you guys do a good job of breaking down which ones are open source, which ones are not, funding, public, private, category. So, good job. So what's the numbers look like? Dan, I'd like you to just take a minute, just, I know you do this a lot, but just do it on the record, what's the numbers? Members, growth? How many cities are you going to be doing KubeCon in? You mentioned Shanghai before we came on. Just run us through the numbers, inside the numbers. >> So, the first number that I think's the most exciting is we've over 20 thousand developers actively engaged across our 20 projects. And so those aren't users, I mean the users is hundreds of thousands. But those are people who've actually found issues with it, made a documentation fix, or, you know, added some significant new feature in order to scratch the itch that they were having. We have 43 hundred people here in KubeCon CloudNativeCon. These events are always a great check-in. We were together in Seattle just a year and a half ago and had a thousand people, 15 hundred here a year ago, 42 hundred in Austin in six months. What we're very excited to do is head to Shanghai in November for our first ever KubeCon CloudNativeCon China, where we now have three platinum members there, three gold members, just a huge level of engagement and interest. >> John: And a big developer community there in China. >> Definitely. >> Lauren: Huge developer community there. >> And obviously the language issue is a barrier, and we're going to be investing real resources to have simultaneous interpretation for all of our talks and all of our tracks. >> John: In real time or post-- >> Definitely in real time. >> Primarily in English and then-- >> No, we can do it both ways, and so we're telling every speaker that they can present in Chinese or English, and then the question can be in Chinese or English. >> I love that. And it's a cost, but we think that that can really help bridge those two different parts. And then we'll be in Seattle in December 11th through 13th for our biggest ever event, KubeCon CloudNativeCon. Along that journey, we've been increasing members and so we had, I believe, 68 in Berlin a year ago, and we're at 216 today, and of those we have 52 members are end user community, who we're particularly proud of. >> Well, congratulations. I want to get those numbers out in the end, because last time we talked about they had more projects coming, coming so good job. Dee, I want to get your thoughts on the branding. Obviously, CNCF, Linux Foundation, separate group, part of the Linux Foundation. I noticed you got CloudNativeCon built into it, still. Branding, guys, thoughts in here, because there's more than Kubernetes here, right, these Cloud-natives, so what's the, are you going to keep one, both, dual branding, what's the thoughts? >> So, I would say the branding will be defined by the community and the fact that we have 20 different projects. I wouldn't put a very strong emphasis on just having one type of a branding associated with cloud-natives. One of the things that I'm thinking about is I've been talking to the community, and I think it's the developers and contributors, again, who's going to define the branding of cloud-native in general. And I think it's still something that we, as a community, have to figure it out. But, essentially, it's going to be beyond containers, orchestration. There's a lot of talks around Prometheus, we talked about Code OS, Redhead. So I think it's just, you know, a combination of how all these projects work together, in a way, it's going to define the branding strategy. So I think it's a little bit too early for me to make some comments on that. >> The best move is not to move at this point. (Dan laughs) I'm a big fan of cloud-native, but KubeCon... Little bit of a conflict with theCUBE, because people-- >> Oh yeah (laughs). >> But we're not going to put a trademark and bring it on you guys, yet. >> We appreciate that. >> We love the confusion. You're in good company, vice versa. Okay, serious question, Dan. I want to ask you, and Dee you can weigh in, too, on this. You're a student of the industry. You've also been around a while, you've seen many waves. For folks that-- >> I'm not that old. (Dan laughs) >> This is a new wave. You're younger than me. For the folks that are looking at this going, "Okay, the numbers are there. I'm seeing growth, "you've got my attention." And they're still trying to grok what this wave is about, this new modern era, cloud-native, KubeCon, Kubernetes. Certainly insiders kind of see it, and there's a lot of people who are kind of high-fiving each other, but, yet, it's not yet fully here. >> Dan: No. >> How important, how do you describe it to someone at a cocktail party or in the elevator. How do I explain to them the historic nature of what's happening. In your own words, what's happening? >> And it is tricky because, you know, at my kids' little leagues games, if we're just chatting about what we do, I sometimes describe it as the plumbing software for the internet. And it's not a bad metaphor; Linux has also been described that way, because plumbing is really important. Now, most of us never think about it, we don't have to worry about it, but if it breaks, we all get extremely upset. And, so, I do think of our sort of overarching method is to say that the whole way this software is being developed, being deployed, especially being pushed into production, is changing. And it's almost all for the positive, where, in the last decade, you had virtualization, but that was often through a proprietary solution that you were paying a tax for every new application you deployed. And the idea today, that you can pick this software platform and then deploy to any public, private, or hybrid cloud and avoid that lock-in, but get all these advantages in terms of higher velocity, lower cost, better efficiency, the slack of lock-in. Those are really amazing stories that lots of enterprises are just now hearing. There's this cliche of crossing the chasm. And I do think we can make the argument that 2018 is really the year that Kubernetes crosses the chasm outside of just innovators and into the early majority. >> You know, I think that's definitely the case. I've been walking around and talking to people and one of the things that I'm hearing is that folks are here to learn, and there are actually kind of beginners on Kubernetes and they actually want to learn more and their companies have sent them here in order to actually figure out if the technology is going to work back at their home company, which is, you know, ranges from tech companies to banks to different types of, you know, manufacturing and things along those lines. It's really a tremendous, you know, growth. What do you see in terms of end users? What types of end users are you seeing mostly? Or what kind of categories do those fall into? >> So we've 52 companies in our end user community now, and a number of them are up on the stage, including folks like Spotify I thought gave a really inspiring talk today about not just being a user of software, but how to engage with the community and contribute back and such. But the thing that I love is that there really is not sort of one industry that we're focused on or avoiding. So, finance who have tons of issues around regulation and such, they're much more likely to be deploying Kubernetes in their own infrastructure on bare-metal. But we have just fantastic stories. Bloomberg won our first ever end user award. We're very big on publishing, so to have not just "The New York Times", but Reddit and Wikipedia. And then a number of just very interesting consumer-oriented companies like a Pinterest or a Twitter, Spotify, and then the list sort of keeps going and going. >> Yeah, it's impressive, and I got to say, you know, you're agnostic as everyone needs plumbing, right, so plumbing is vertical agnostics. So, it's-- >> Well, in the cliche from Marc Andreessen, that software's eating the world is, again, somewhat true. That there really is not a company today that can avoid writing its own software. I mean, as I was saying in my keynote yesterday, that software tends to just be the tip of the pyramid that they're building on tons of open source. But, every company today needs to-- >> And your point of commercialization-friendly or membership organization, which you've built, is important. And I got to say, for the first time, we heard on theCUBE multiple times, not from the visionary to believe and drink the Kool-Aid, so to speak, like us and you guys and users and other commercial entities have used the word "de facto standard" to describe Kubernetes. Now, there's only a few times in history when you've heard that word. There's been inflection points. >> Dan: Linux, certainly one of them. (laughs) >> Yes so, again, when you have a de facto standard that's determined by the community, just really good things happen. So we're hopeful and we'll keep monitoring it. >> Yeah, and I do want to say that we take that responsibility very seriously. And so we have thing like our certified Kubernetes program about making sure the Kubernetes remains compatible between the carefulness that we do apply to new projects coming in, so we hope to live up to that. >> Great and, Dee, we talked yesterday, going to get that share that information with our team, happy to amplify it. There's a lot of people who want to learn, they want to discover and find out who to connect with, so a robust community. >> We really appreciate you going with us on this journey. >> It's been fun, we're going to hang along for the ride. We're going to be a sidecar, pun intended. (laughing) Well, theCUBE, Dan, thanks so much. Congratulations, executive director. >> Oh, thank you very much. >> Dee, good work. CNCF, here inside the cube at their event, here at KubeCon 2018, I'm John Furrier and Lauren Cooney. We'll be back with more live coverage. Stay with us after this short break. (techno music)

>> Announcer: Live from Copenhagen Denmark, it's theCUBE covering Kubecon and CloudnativeCon Europe 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back everyone, live here at Copenhagen, Denmark, Cube's coverage of Kubecon 2018 in Europe, this is all about the Kubernetes the future of cloud native, CloudNativeCon part of the CNCF Cloud Native Foundation, I'm John Furrier and my co-host Lauren Cooney, founder of Spark Labs industry expert of open source. So, we have two end user customers of Kubernetes and Cloud Native, Zach Arnold, software engineer Ygenre energy fund, and Austin Adams software development manager, same company. You guys are doing really interesting business model around energy and equity in buildings and homes, but you're writing code, so you have to make all this stuff work, so I'm sure you're cloud native, why have a data center when you can have the cloud >> Austin : We were born in the cloud. >> You were born in the cloud. So take us through, explain the business real quick, and then what's your back end, technical scaling situation look like in terms of infrastructure, software and what's the make up of the systems. >> Zach: You know the business best. >> Yeah, so Ygrene operates under something called PACE, property assess clean energy. We operate in a couple of different states. We work with local governments to create a PACE program that is accepted in different counties or jurisdictions within the state, and then we allow homeowners and contracting companies to provide financing for home improvements that are specifically within the domain of renewable energy or energy efficiency. >> So, you basically finance a solar panel that I put on my house or building if there's benefits there, and then you guys get the financing and you tie in with the government so the property taxes, the leverage the security is the building right, or the asset. >> Yeah, and the way that we're chartered is basically we can put a tax on the property which gives us some guarantees on repayment and things like that, and it's a great model so far. >> It's a new financial engineering around energy efficiancy so you've got to build systems, so you're working with government, so now we all know how government systems work, so you've got to be agile and nimble. Take us through how the back end works, what's it look like, what's the system look like, you're hosted in the cloud, is it Amazon, Google? >> So everything that we have is in a cloud provider that starts with an A, and ends with an S, it's AWS I don't know if I can say that, I think I can say that, AWS all the way-- >> Yes, it's good. >> And we have tons of services, we have Kubernetes running most of our main services. Within our migration we actually started with our main service. A lot of people start with, you know, their smallest microservice, we just went whole-hog and just went in for it, so they system is mainly a lone-management system. Underwriting data aggregation and underwriting processing, so every application that comes in we have to underwrite it and make sure every little thing checks out, and our underwriting system has won awards for how accurate it is and how high quality it is as well. >> So, I'm doing a mental white board in my mind, just kind of graphing this so just help me out here and take us through this. So, you guys are a cutting edge company, new progressive business model, real innovative, great stuff. Cloud native, so you're born in the cloud no data center, cool, check, it's what everyone does, and now you're like okay, now I've got to deal with these legacy systems. So, you're putting containers around things, so you have to interface, you build your own system so that's cool, but you're dealing with other systems and then how are you handling that, you are just containerizing it, so take us through some of those linkages. >> Yeah, so where we're creating, a lot of times when we have to integrate with another system, we'll create a small service that is code that we own, and we'll reach out to those integrations, those vendors and we'll do aggregation within our system and provide an interface back to our systems. You know, like everyone, we're breaking up the monolith or whatever, maybe in 10 years we'll go back to a monolith, who knows but you know we're slicing out things, making microservices, it looks like a mess on the back end, just tons of microservices going everywhere and that's why we're using all these Cloud Native tools to be able to manage that. So, in order to move quickly, we're wanting to containerize everything, everything runs in a container at this point. >> Lauren: Great. >> A lot of our services follow this kind of we're kind of calling the container adaptor pattern, it follows the software adaptor pattern where, just like Austin was saying, let's say for example we're interfacing with a credit vendor, we create a service where we talk to our own service that has a well defined interface that we know will always get a credit report back with the following fields, but then where that information actually comes from, whether it's one of the big three credit vendors or someone else who has a well defined API, that's largely not the concern of the main loan management system, it's the concern of the microservice that's responsible for reaching out to that other entity there. So, that's how we've kind of gotten to beat around the legacy interfacing of all these other different financial services and tools that help to aggregate data.. >> It's super clever you can optimize on a service basis but now you have to orchestrate and kind of conduct everything through-- >> And keep everything secure. >> That's really interesting, I mean I think what I'm looking at here is a huge ecosystem of partners and companies and end users coming together and one of the questions, beyond why you are here, what are you looking at here, what is interesting to you, what do you want to learn about that you might bring into your, you know, architecture essentially? >> Austin and I were talking about this, we kind of tend to look at the CNCF list of projects as a dinner menu. (laughs) >> We're refreshing that page frequently, because we're adding projects at an alarming rate, but one project we're using FluentD, Notary, Kubernetes, of course, Prometheus, things like that, we want to start using those things more extensively. One's that we're really excited about are Spire and Spiffy, the identity, kind of a new take, not necessarily new but new for cloud native take on identity of services and authentication, as well as the open policy agent to provide a single DSL to do all of your policy and authorization-- >> Lauren: That's a lot of work, load and management and identity correct? >> Yeah, yes. >> Authorization and authentication are two of the most important things that happen in our system and we have so many different ways that it happens right now, it can tend to look a little clogy, just from the sense of the fact that we need a little more coordination or standardization around it, I mean we have well written policies that are documented but the way that those actually get enforced are, it's individualized based on the service, you know, if it's a cloud based policy, then it's AWS IAM, if it's Kubernetes based policy it's RBAC using Kubernetes RBAC, so it kind of looks like if we can abstact a lot of that functionality out of the services, the containers, the orchestration tool or the cloud, to making those decisions, that would really, really simplify things for us. >> So, you guys are end users, so are you part of like an end user group that gives feedback directly into the community or how does that work, and do you contribute to that? >> Yes, so we're on the fringes of the contributor community as well, and we're definitely on GitHub on all these projects posting issues and in some cases providing our own PR's or whatever. None of us are within the Kubernetes orb but that's definitely something we all are achieving or aspiring to be is jumping into some of these projects, especially some of the smaller projects that we're using on a daily basis on our build servers like, Portheurs or Notary, some of those things we're actively contributing to those. >> So, you've traded on mastery of product but being active on the project is the key, the balance there. >> Yeah, I mean typically what you find in the fiance industry is when they go for a solution, they lead with their wallet as for what we can purchase, or what we can sponsor, but Ygrene has been, our managers and management have been incredibly empowering this way, they say well what can we give, we lead with our hands. >> Yeah, and this is interesting, if you have a good business model innovation, which you guys have, you can be a completely clean sheet of paper to build it. >> Right >> So, that's the best thing about the cloud. You can really move fast and go from, you know, point A to point B, move the needle. >> Yeah, with it at the same time there's kind of a clean slate, there's even a clean slate in terms of best practices within our industry. Now if we were in mortgage, there's a lot of rules, there's a lot of clear guidelines on how to do security and auditing and things that you need, where in our industry that's all emerging, so we have a chance to also set the pace, set the tone for what security might look like, or what cloud usage might look like within the PACE industry. But at the same time, we're getting increasing government regulations, so we're having to make these decisions around, what are the tools that are going help us achieve maximum customer protection and audit-ability while maintaining our business model without totally-- >> And you're going to need flexibility because you don't know what's going to come next you've got to be ready for anything, and that is what leads to my next question, two points, how do you guys prepare for what's next, what's the main ethos around, technical architecture around being prepared for that, ready state that's coming to you, and then two, what have you learned over the, what's the scar tissue look like, what's the moments of joy and despair going on because you're reiterating, your learning, you're always constantly getting knocked down, standing back up. so this is what innovation is, it can be fun and also grueling at the same time. >> Yeah, so how we deal with what's new beyond our like software process, we have a well-defined process that everything gets churned into. Government is really good about giving us notice about when stuff's going into effect, so we always have target dates that we're going toward. But, in terms of what's next in terms of our software, we have this interesting culture within our organization, everyone wants to improve everything, I think it's called a Kaizen culture, just people are looking at stuff they want to improve it, and so our process allows for anyone to throw something on the backlog. It will get prioritized and put around, but we're allowing all of our engineers to say, hey we want to do this, and you know, putting it into an open forum where, you know, we might not do it but we have the discussion, and we have all the channels to have those discussions and, like most technology companies or technology focused companies, we spend a lot of time talking about technologies, and making those decisions. >> You guys really have the cultural ethos but the people to bate and then commit. >> And that's one of my, you know, recommendations for any company trying to move to cloud native or Kubernetes is, always, you have to have your evangelists, on your team, because you can't expect people who have been doing it one way forever to instantly be onboard. You need some sort of technical evangelist whether that's outside company, it works best, I think, if it's someone you've hired, or someone in your organization who's preaching the gospel of Kubernetes or cloud native. >> Spark Labs, Lauren's company's doing a lot of that work, but that really nails it, I mean, you got to just, it's not a technical issue, per se-- >> Exactly. >> We're hearing that all through the show here. What's on your wish list, what is the holiday's want to bring for you? If you could throw your wish list out there, and you can, a magic wand, crystal ball >> EKS, if Amazon would respond to our request. >> Okay, we just had AG on yesterday, he said it's coming >> It's coming. >> He said, months, >> Did he say months, I thought it was a few months, So maybe >> We'll check the transcripts. >> Alright >> Yeah, it wasn't tomorrow. >> That's alright. >> And that's one of our, that's our scar tissue right? We're doing this ourself, you know, there's this huge control board and we got people, you know, doing the knobs and things and we're relatively small, you know, we're a small engineering organization so we're doing a lot of this ourselves where we can abstract a lot of that work out to a cloud provider that we are already on. >> Well it's going to be good reps for you guys as this thing gets abstracted away, you're going to have a great core competencies in Kubernetes, I think that is a notable thing there. >> Austin: For sure. >> One of the things on my wish list, I was speaking to Jace and Josh Burkus and a lot of the core contributors in Kubernetes at the Contributors Summit, I kind of realized that I would love to see a coordinated cross cutting after, either on part of the CNCF or on part of The Kubernetes Project proper, to have a proactive security, I wouldn't call it a working group, I guess a SIG, a Special Interest Group. It would be, I know that we can deal with zero day issues really, really quickly. For example, the Azure host path mapping issue that was a few months ago, but right now it's kind of on the responsibility of each SIG to implement whatever security looks like to them individually, which is great, it means there are people thinking about security, that makes me sleep better at night. But, seeing some coordination around that and kind of driving towards, okay we have this tool that seems to be changing the game, how are we going to change the game with security? Like is there a way to look at that and even, 'cause authentication and authorization have been around since more than one user used a terminal in the 1960's and 70's. But, even with this new step of admission controllers, where we have more fine grain control around how stuff gets into the cluster. I think it would be great to look at what a coordinated cloud native security effort would look like. >> I think that's great, I mean we've been talking to a lot of vendors here and a lot of folks that have projects, and we bring security every single time and they kind of have an answer, but they really don't. >> They body swerve you, we've got this we've got that. >> Or you're the developer and you have to build it in yourself, so I totally agree with that recommendation I think it's fabulous. >> Yeah, Kubernetes is making so many things simpler at certain levels. Now, if we can focus those efforts at making security simple for people, because they're security experts, they can put their two cents in >> Lauren: Let's build it in and not block it on. >> Build it in and not expect every developer to know. >> Zach: Don't bolt it on, build it in. >> Build it from the beginning, there are all kinds of new ways. The fact there is no perimeter with the cloud brings up, really kind of throws everyone for a loop because you have to go to the chipset down, I mean what Google got, I think is a very interesting approach, they're trying to push forward this multilayer approach from chip to kernel to OS to app, interesting. They've got, managing through all their security, they've got android, I mean spear phishing is a huge problem right now, we're seeing and a lot of enterprises we talk to are like, well, it's like the firewalls and VPN's like that's old school, they need to modernize that so this is going to get them thinking about that. So great, hey guys, thank you for coming on and sharing your feedback-- >> Thank you. >> And your data and your place and how you are architected on AWS and your work with Kubernetes. Congratulations. >> Thank you. >> Cube coverage here in Copenhagen. It's theCUBE's coverage at Kubecon 2018. We'll be back with more after this short break.

>> Narrator: Live, from Copenhagen, Denmark, it's theCube. Covering KubeCon and Cloud Native Con Europe 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Hello, everyone, welcome back to theCUBE exclusive coverage of CNCF. The Cloud Native Foundation, Compute Foundation, part of the Linux Foundation of KubeCon 2018 here in Copenhagen, Denmark. I'm John Furrier co-host of theCUBE here with analyst this week Lauren Cooney, who is the founder of Spark Labs, brand new start up that she founded to help companies bring innovation to Cloud Native, bring in all of her expertise to companies. Also, here on theCUBE, Lauren, great to have you this week. >> Thanks, John. >> Here in Europe, you've done so much work in the area of open source over the years. You've done, you were radical renegade, progressive, pushing PHP, bringing that to Microsoft. Doing a lot of great things, and now we're in a new modern era, and you're bringing that expertise, but you're also on the front lines of the new wave. >> Lauren: Definitely. >> Cloud Native, so what's your take? What's your analysis? I mean, there's so much going on. You can't just retrofit old school open source, but it's got to build on the next generation. What's your thoughts? >> It has to build on the next generation, but you also have to look back at what has happened in the past. I think what is incredibly important to see is the mistakes that have been made in the past, so that people don't repeat them. One of the things that I'm seeing here and hearing a lot about is multiple distributions of Kubernetes out there, and when I hear multiple distributions I get worried that they're going the open sack route and there is going to be too many distributions out there. I would rather see one or two standard become kind of more standard and people building on top of that. I think it's the right way to go versus the splintering of the community. If the community is going to stay together you're going to have to narrow that down. >> What's the rationale for the distribution? Because, we've seen this before. Certainly at Hadoop, we saw people come out with distros and then abandon them, and then people coalesce around. >> Oh, they'll just die on the vine. I mean, fundamentally they just will die on the vine. It won't be, if it's not de facto already you're probably not going to get it de facto. >> John: What should companies do? Should they have a distro down. >> They should map to one of the key distros right now. They should, basically, use what is out there already. The one that they feel is right, and for their users, and for their company long term. >> I really enjoyed a couple of interviews we had yesterday. I want to just kind of revisit a couple of them. Tyler and Dirk, we had Tyler on from the new programming language ballerina that was launched. He's part of WSO2. Dirk is from Vien, where former early Linux guy, Linux foundation guy, worked with Linux tarballs in the early days. These guys know up the source. So you look at some of those leaders, and they say, "Hey, this is about the people" What are the things that we can draw from the past that are still relevant today? As the new formula of Kubernetes horizontally scalable cloud, Cloud Native thousands and, potentially, millions of micro-services coming online, new kinds of dynamic policy based infrastructure software, everything's coming. >> Service mesh, can't forget service mesh. >> Service meshes are going to be huge. What do we have to keep and preserve, and what is being built out that's new? >> Well, I think that you need to preserve the feeling of the community and what's going on there. I mean, these communities, actually it's communities not community, and these folks are coming along for the wave right? And I think it's important to make sure that people are aware of that, and there's lots of different personalities and lots of different goodness that can be brought to the table with that and the recognition of that. I also think that, for the most part, I do believe that this is one of the strongest communities out there, and it will continue to be for a number of years. >> I want to get your thoughts on something Ed Warnicke said from Cisco because he was very complimentary of the CNCF as are other people, and we have been complimentary as well about keeping everything tight to the core and allowing people to innovate. So you have, and we have commented on theCUBE and other KubeCons about this, and they've been doing it, which is let the innovation foster on the technical side as well as let people flex their business model opportunities. >> Lauren: Definitely. >> Not so much just for the sake of commercialization because if you have too much commercialization you might stunt the community of growth organically so there's a balance, and I think CNCF has done a good job there, but they've kept the core of Kubernetes really tight which has allowed the de facto standard approach to be Kubernetes. That has created great opportunity, and people are super excited by that. What's your analysis of what happens next? What needs to happen? What's the momentum phase two of this? >> I think part of it is, how do you monetize, right? It's looking at, and this is part of what Spark Labs actually does, is we actually work with companies, some that are in the CNCF, and we work on them in different ways to monetize. Is it a services wrapper that's going to work? Is it additional features or functionality? The innovation comes with the technology, but with that technology you have to have the business model kind of in mind when you're building this out so you can figure out how to make money. As these smaller companies especially are looking to do and some of the bigger companies as well. >> I really think it's important for the CNCF and the Linux foundation and I know they're on this so its not critical analysis so much as it is more of an observation. You have a long tail of start ups and kind of a fat tail if you will, that are out there, and you have the big whales out there Google, Microsoft, Amazon, and others at the top. There was a comment in Austin, a snarky comment. I won't say by who, but I was looking at the logo board of the sponsors, and the guy said, "All those start-ups, they might be dead in 18 months" and it made me pause and say okay, that's an observation because they were brand new companies. >> Lauren: Mm hmm. >> That can't happen. We need to have a model of preservation for start-ups to experiment, to grow. This is something you're doing at Spark Labs so what's your view of this? And, reaction to the fact that this has to happen. What can we do as an industry and community to make sure the start ups-- >> I think the Linux foundation is doing one of the best things that can be done out there. Other open source foundations do too. Is they create the infrastructure so that folks have the support for marketing, or legal, or something along those lines, but so companies are allowed to innovate and then the Linux Foundation basically bets on the innovation and they bet on multiple innovations with multiple companies so they allow these companies to thrive while giving them the support inside of that. >> John: Yeah. >> And I think that's really helping a lot of these companies along. >> Well, Dave Collins always says is the membership organization, so no members no business model so I mean they're incented to make sure that, or hope, that these guys can survive, and certainly there's going to be some misfires and people will natural evolution. So what are you most excited about? I got to ask ya, I mean you're out on your own now. Congratulations, you started up. >> Thank you. >> Super exciting for you and I'm happy that you're going to go out on your own. What are some of the things you're excited about? What are you digging your teeth into, in terms of projects? Share what you're doing. >> I'm super excited about these companies that are coming out with true multi-cloud. So, allowing applications to run across multiple environments, public, private, et cetera. And we've been saying we can do it for a decade or something like that, but fundamentally that wasn't the case. You did have to re-write code. You did have to do a lot of underlying things to make that occur. One of the things that I'm super excited about is being able to take those companies and figure out how to actually get their product to market faster. Some of these guys are still in stealth. They need to move really fast if they want to catch up. I also love working with them on figuring out how to build out their teams, figuring out how to monetize. What are the next steps? What are the business plans, really, behind this? What is the one, three, five year model that they're going to use? I also love helping them get the money, of course. I think that's the fun part too. >> Yeah, it's always fun. Start-ups are great. What I'm excited about, I got to tell ya, I got to share with you just some personal feelings. I love this market right now because I've seen many waves of innovation and I think this wave of cloud native, whatever you want to call it this massive wave or sets of waves coming in and you got blockchain and other things going on behind it these centralized applications which I think is part of this set coming in, is that it's bigger than all the other waves combined and because there's so much value creation on the horizon and I think historically, this moment in time, historically is going to be a point we're going to look back and say the Kubernetes de facto standard galvanized a set of industry, a new card of players who are going to establish a new way methodology of doing things, and we're documenting it. Secondly, the role of community, as you pointed out, is so important here, and it's strong, but now we're living in a new age of digital. We're seeing formations of new kinds of community engagement digitally, not just the events, so I'm excited with theCUBE and what we're doing here, and what the Linux Foundation is doing because there's now going to be, potentially, exponential growth and acceleration around the combination of community. >> Yup. >> The community growth with this new modern commercialization on digital. >> It's definitely increasingly important, and you have to look at it from the technologies making it happen. The technology is looking at, edge computing is going to make digital happen really when you look at all the end points and things along those lines. And, I think that it's going to be great for everyone involved in that. >> Yeah, and we can learn a lot from looking at the Facebook example of how fake news swayed the election. How people were weaponizing content for bad things. There's also an opposite effect, we believe that you can do the for good. >> Lauren: Totally agree. >> I think digital will have a big role in the next generation community formations, community growth, short cuts to the truth, really that's what it's all about. It's about the people, so certainly we're going to be documenting it. Thanks for your commentary. >> Lauren: Definitely. >> Appreciate it, great to work with you this week. Day two of exclusive coverage, here at the Linux Foundation's Cloud Native Compute Foundation's, CNCF's KubeCon 2018. This is where Kubernetes, service mesh, Istio a lot of great projects, from a lot of smart people. We're here on the ground covering it live. Day two, we'll be back with more coverage. Stay with us for day two coverage, after this short break. (electronic music)

live from the Computer History Museum in Mountain View California it's the cube covering Devon that create 2018 brought to you by Cisco hey welcome back everyone live here at dev net create Cisco's event here at this Museum in Mountain View California art a Silicon Valley I'm here with Laura Cooney we here for two days wall-to-wall coverage breaking down Cisco's move into the DevOps Wow developer world separate from the dev net community which is the Cisco Developer Program and we've been breaking down Lauren great to have you this past two days so we talked to a lot of the Cisco folks a lot of the practitioners let's analyze it let's discuss kind of what's going on first of all Cisco creates a new group almost a year ago next month called dev net create to get out of the Cisco bubble and go out into the cloud world and see if they can't connect the cloud ecosystem cloud native kubernetes all the micro services goodness is going on the application side on infrastructures code and bring that with the Cisco network engineering community who are plumbers network plumbers their network engineers they deal with provisioning gear routes well I think it's interesting because you have this CCIE number that has been decreasing over the past couple of years and that's that's not because the network is less important it's actually because new skill sets are emerging and folks need to take on these new skills to learn and to really flourish in their careers so I think what definite is doing is just tremendous in terms of enabling developers to move up stack to look at things like kubernetes to look at things like you know cloud native to look at new applications you can build new things that you can extend to API integration into you know new types of applications you know we had folks here that we're learning to code in Python for the first time and I think that's awesome I think that's great and the timing is perfect I mean I got to give credit to Susie we and her team at Cisco they have they doing they're doing all the right things I think the way they're handling this is they're not overly aggressive they're not arrogant they're humble they're learning they're listening and they're doing all the right things are bringing a lot to the table from the Cisco table to this community and they've got you know this is very cool but the timing is critical if they tried to do this four years ago how hard would have it been you know you've been there okay I mean they pull this off four years ago I think there was the the goal was always there four years ago but I think the timing was you know you you have to kind of put the the mission in order and get things up and running first you can't just you don't launch a community you build one and I think we you know Cisco really needed to build that core community first and that was that was super credit but even four years ago let's just go back and rewind the clock we was cloud then so it was still the purest DevOps culture it was certainly hard-charging was definitely flying but still even like a lot of the on-premise enterprise folks we're like still kind of poopoo in the cloud you even saw it four years ago Oracle just made their move a couple years ago to the cloud and they're still trying to catch up so you know these legacy vendors and Cisco is one they've pivoted nicely Cisco into this because now the timings there as kubernetes there's enough code to get glued in plugged in with the stack so I think timing has also been a tailwind timing was critical I mean back then we were talking about software-defined networking and you know new services that you could deliver to the cloud and new ways and then DevOps came in is like really the glory child right saying like this DevOps was gonna solve world hunger and and what she came what it came down to basically is you know it is a critical part but there are certain piece parts that needed to come together especially in the open source world to make these things happen I mean to me if I had to like point out I'm just riffing here but you know to me the seminal moment for a cloud and you know agile was happening that's a key driver but it was the fact that was horizontally scalable tech unstructured data the roles of databases software that was becoming this new lightweight glue layer control planes or moving up and down the stack so there wasn't one thing combination of these awesome things were happening that made people go whoa holy-holy we could do more if we think about scale differently skill differently and really how do you bring this you know and this is where you get to edge computing it's how do you actually bring these to the masses how do you go where the people are how do you store data where people are how do you extend security in new ways I mean that's that's gonna be super critical I think the other thing that's also pretty evident is that when you start having new entrants into a market start eating some of your breakfasts then they start eating some of your lunch then you go wait a minute if I don't do something my dinner is gonna be eaten I mean you starting to see people see their business at risk yeah this is a huge thing that that lights up to see XO the CEO the CEO o CDO CIO now it's like okay we got to make a move definitely I think that's that's the way that it has to be and in terms of Cisco I want to get your thoughts because I've always been talking about this and I'm a big Cisco fan I know a lot of people who work there been a big admirer of the company from day one and what they did in the internet generation they did bought a lot of cubbies which create a little bit of a mash mash but that's nothing I issue they really ran the networks what a great culture however we're now seeing applications driving a lot of value and the network needs to be programmable and the challenge that cisco has always been how do we will if the stack as a company and all the little scuttle butts and conversations and parties have been to hallway conversations francisco executives employees is that's been the internal debate how does cisco should cisco move up the stack and if so how so it's been kind of this internal thing good timing now to start moving up the stack because the automations here I think it was great timing four years ago to move up the stack to be honest I think that there were efforts then I know that I was engaged in some to do that rather quickly you know those turned into things that you know went one way or the other I think that there are the right people in the right places at Cisco now to make that actually happen I think you know we're a little early on that I think Suzy Zephyr is just tremendous in terms of driving the users up stack to have them learn these new skills and as they learn these new skills they're learning it on Cisco and that's gonna be really critical that's gonna have the pull power yeah I think this is got a chance a real great chance to and it's not a far reaching of a accomplishment either for them to do this is they can now actually build a developer program now because before they didn't have enough software but what Suzy's doing if I'm Chuck Roberts CEO of Cisco I'm doubling down and what's going on with definite definite create and I can take that def net component and almost kind of expand it out because Cisco has a developer option you look at what they're doing on the collaborative software side the stuff with video they have a total core confidence in video I mean they were early on so many things but now with I got WebEx they're still and so for video conferencing but still beyond that IOT is a video application well huge opportunity in these these communities that pop up and right now you don't have a product if you don't have a supporting community and so salutely be doubling down on this they need to double down on that they probably need to invest more in it than they are now I see it as absolutely critical as they move forward because you know Cisco wants to be one or two in the market for all their products all their solutions to have that they need to have the supporting community dude yeah we did two days here and you know and in terms of events it's not the big glam event it's really a early stage the only the second event within the it hasn't even been 12 months since the first dev net create what I'm impressed by what I love about the cube is we when you get at these early moments when you see it magic happening you get into the communities and you realize wow this is a team that could pull it off and I think Cisco's a company at Cisco live in Barcelona you know it really became apparent to me that Cisco's really pulling in the right direction on a couple things I feel that the big company thing that gotta kind of clean that up a bit just make it more nimble but they got their eye on the prize on video they could really crush the IOT opportunity and the leverage of the network is a huge asset and if they could make that programmable with an open source community behind it man this could be a whole nother Cisco almost bring back that look at the glory days I fully agree Lauren what are you up to these days I mean you got a new gig I do care about your new company and what you're working on you guys write in code you do Advisory do consulting actually stuff I mean you know I like my hands and lots of things so I think it's important to say that you know I've taken my experience at IBM and Microsoft and juniper and Cisco driving new innovation to market faster and new revenue channels and I've taken that and I've started a consulting firm called spark labs and what we do is we use new models like Minimum Viable Product and business model canvas to actually drive you know whether it's product whether it's service whether it's these you know new channels whether it's partner or whether you're just trying to kind of pull together your team in a new way we actually take this and and help you do it in a faster way and you know we've got the models we've got the background and you know we're working with companies that are big and small what kind of engagement you working on what kind of problems you saw so you know we have a larger company that we're working with and one of the things that they ran into is they had just changed around kind of their leadership and we've gone in and worked with their leadership team to kind of establish what this new team needs to look like what are they going to deliver on what are the metrics what are the you know kind of success things that that people are really trying to achieve and how do we empower this new team that has this new leader and you know how do we make sure that everyone's aligned I think that's part of it and the line that's critical alignment is you know you don't if you don't it's it's great to have an amazing vision but if you don't have the execution you're just not going to get there yeah Andy Jesse one of my favorite execs that I've interviewed he's pragmatic he's strong went to Harvard Law hold it against him but great super great guy but he's got a great philosophy I think I come from the Amazon culture is you argue all day long but once a decisions made you align behind it yeah so bring some constructive discourse to the table yep but once it's done they don't tolerate any you know yeah a dysfunctional aggressed passive-aggressive behavior okay say and if say your piece fuck a lot that's exactly it I mean we pull people together for a day or a day and a half and actually run them through the business model canvas which will align with like what their goals are what their mission is how their how their you know being seen in the market and lots of other things but the real goal there is to pull the team together on on you know what exactly those things are and the value that their organization has because if you can't deliver on that message you can't deliver on much more so you do need that alignment and teams are so all over the place often when you're running fast you kind of forget and so sometimes they need to be reminded what's your take on dev net create this year what's your thoughts I think it's great I mean I love the fact that you know there's folks from so many different backgrounds and so many different you know kind of technical areas here I love you know muraki's giving away 1.2 million dollars of equipment and software licenses I think that's phenomenal I'm impressed by a Cisco folks here not too overly overboard and and give them too many compliments because you know they'll get cocky no but still serious dis Cisco people that are here are kicking ass they're doing a great job they're got the microphones on they're doing the demos they're doing a lot they are jazz and they're they're not mailing it in either doing a great job and I think that's that's authentic genuine I think that's going to be a great you know seed in the in the community to grow that up again still they got a lot of work to do but I don't think it's too far of a bridge for Network guys to be cloud guys and to kind of find some middle ground so I think it's the timings perfect I think I'm super impressed with the team and I think this is a great path a Cisco to double down on and and really invest more in because it's definitely got legs and a big fan of the camp thing too we talked about the camp create where they had competitive teams hacking and spending two days on so you know love it love the culture but again early let's see where they go with it I mean if they can get the network ops go on there's DevOps for networks concepts yeah and bring it up and make it programmable couldn't ask for a better time with kubernetes all the coolness going on that microservices good time definitely a great time well great to host with you and we're here live at dev net create wrapping up two days of wall-to-wall coverage of the cube dev net create again this is the cloud ecosystem for cisco separate from the cool or dev net which is the Cisco developer program for all of Cisco a great opportunity for them of course the cubes here covering it we're gonna wrap this up and thanks for watching cube coverage here in the Computer History Museum in Mountain View California thanks for watching