>>Hello, welcome to the special cube conversation. I'm John for your host of the queue here in Palo Alto, California. We're still remoting in getting great guests in events are coming back. Next few weeks, we'll be at a bunch of different events and you'll see the cube everywhere, but this conversation's about network challenges in a distributed hybrid workforce era. We've got a team say he principal, product manager, edge networking solutions, a Dell technologies and Rob McBride channel and partner sales engineer at versa networks. Gentlemen, thanks for coming on this cube conversation, >>John. Thank you, John. >>So first of all, obviously with the pandemic and now we're moving out of the pandemic, even with Omnichron out there, we still see visibility into kind of back to work and events and it's, but it's clearly hybrid environment cloud hybrid work. This has been a huge opening of everyone's eyes around network security provisioning, you know, unexpected disruptions around everyone being worked at home. Nobody really forecasted that. The fact that the whole workforce would be remote coming in. So again, put a lot of pressure on the network challenges over over the past two years. How is it coming out of this different what's your guys' take on this. >>Yeah, to then when we start looking at it, let's kind of focus a little bit on challenges, you know, you know, when this all kind of started off, obviously, as you stated, right, everyone was kind of taken by surprise in a way, right? What do we do? We don't know what to do at this moment. And you know, I go back and I remember a customer giving me a call, you know, when they were at first looking at, you know, your traditional land transformation and one of the changed their branches to do something from an SD perspective. And then the pandemic hit. And their question to me was Rob, what do I do? Or what do I need to start thinking about now, all of a sudden to your point, right? Everyone now is no longer in the office and how do I get them to connect. >>And more importantly, now that I can maybe figure out a way to connect them, how do I actually see what they're doing and be able to control what they're actually now accessing? Because I no longer have that level of control as of them coming into the office. And so a lot of customers, you know, we're, we're beginning to develop kind of homegrown solutions, look at various different things to kind of quick hot patches, if you will, to address the remote workers coming in and things of that nature. And we'll be seeing kind of progression through all this as a, as, as opposed to just solving, getting a user, to connect into the, into an environment that it can provide, you know, continuity for. They started coming up with other challenges to the point of security. They started, you know, I have other customers calling me up and saying, you know, I I've now got a ransomware problem, right? >>So, you know, what do I do about that? And what are the things I need to kind of consider with respect to now I'm much more vulnerable because my, my, my branch has state has basically become much more diversified and solutions and things that they're looking for, regardless, obviously around security connectivity, there they've been challenged with addressing how do they unify their levels of visibility without over encumbering themselves and how they actually manage now this kind of much more kind of distributed kind of network if you will. Right? So things around, you know, looking at, you know, acronyms around from like a Z TNA or, you know, cloud security and all this fun stuff starts coming into play. But what it, what it points to is that the biggest challenge ideas, how does, how do they converge networking and security together and provide equitable and uniform policy architecture to identify their users, to connect and access the applications that are relevant to the business and be able to have that uniformity between whether it's the branch for them being remote. And that's part of what we've kind of seen as this progression to the last two years and kind of solutions that they're looking for to kind of help them address that. It's almost like >>It's a good thing in a way. It actually opens up the kimono and say, Hey, this is the real world we've got to prepare for this next generation a TIF. I want to get your take because, you know, remember the old days we were like, oh yeah, we've got to prepare for these scenarios where maybe 30% will be dialing on the V land or remotely, you know, it's not 30%. It was like 100%. So budgets aren't out of whack and yet they want more resiliency at the edge. Right. So, so one, I didn't budget for it. They didn't predict it and it's gotta be better, faster, cheaper, more skier. >>Yeah. Yeah. So, so, so John, the difference is, is that, you know, Dell, for instance, as already was already working towards this distributed model, right? The pandemic just accelerated that transformation. So, so when customers came to us and said, oh, we've got a problem with our workforce and our users being so geographically suddenly dispersed, you know, we had some insight that we could immediately lean on. We had already started working on solutions and building those platforms that can help them address those, those problems. Right. Because we'd already done studies before this, right. We had done studies and we'd come back on this whole work from home or remote office scenario. And, and the results were pretty unanimous in that customers were, all users were always complaining about, you know, application performance issues and, and, you know, connectivity issues and, and things like that. So we, we, we kinda knew about this. And so we were able to proactively start building solutions. And so, you know, so when a customer comes, there's like Rob was talking about, you know, their infrastructure, wasn't set up for everybody to suddenly move on day one and start accessing all the corporate resources where the majority of the organization is accessing corporate resources from away from campus. Right? So we, we, we have solutions, we've been building solutions and we have guidance to offer these customers as they try to modernize that network and address these problems. >>Well, that's a great segue to the next topic. Talk track is, you know, what is a network? What is network monetization? Right. So let's, let's define that if you don't mind, well, I got you guys here. You're both pros get that sound bite, but then let's get into the benefits of the outcomes from what that enables. So if you guys want to take a stab at defining what is network modernization mean? >>I think there's a lot of definitions, or it kind of depends on your point, your point of view of where you're, where you're responsible for, from a network or within the stack, you know, are from a take obviously is, you know, working, working from a vendor. And with solutions that we provide modernization is really around solutions that begin to look at more software defined architectures and definitions to begin a level of decoupling between, you know, points of control, hardware and software, and other kinds of points of visibility and automation to the point where, where things are let's, let's kind of put an air quotes in a sense of being more digitized. And in the sense, like even how we're looking at things from a consumerization perspective, but looking at things a much more, more cloud aware cloud specific cloud native in built automation, as well as inbuilt kind of analytics where things are much more in a, in a broader SDN, kind of a construct would be a form of a definition from a, from a, from a, from a monetization perspective. >>Now, do the other element of your, kind of a question in regards to, it's kind of the benefits that come as a result of this. So as customers have been in the last 24 months, looking at different solutions to address part of what we've been talking about, part of it is you want, when you're looking at, whether it's like you're using a word like sassy to kind of define, you know, how are enterprises looking for ZTE and they based solutions or cloud security to augment their, their overall needs. The benefits that they're finding are simplicity of management, because they're now looking for more uniform solutions that can address secure access for remote workers, in addition to their own kind of traditional access, as it relates to their offices to better visibility. Because as this uniformity of this kind of architecture, the now able to actually really see the level of context, right? >>I can see you, John, as far as where you're coming in and access and what applications on what devices. And now I have a means to actually apply a policy to that matters to me as the business, from an IP perspective, to protect me as the business, but also to ensure that you're actually authorized and accessing things that I have from an it regular reg regulations perspective. So benefits and the summary are kind of like Mo in bill automation, better, you know, things get done faster, things repair on their own in a different way, as a result of automation, greater visibility. Now they have much more greater insights into what we are doing as users of the overall it infrastructure and better overall control. That's been ultimately simplified as result of consolidation and unification. >>That's awesome. Insight. I T what's your take on the benefits of ma network modernization? >>So I'd like to sort of double down on, on, you know, something Rob said, right? So the visibility, right? So enhanced visibility in layman's terms, that just means more insight, more insight means the ability to implement best practices around application usage, application performance, more insights means control that it departments are, are meeting. They need that to manage and address security threats, right? To be able to identify an abnormal traffic pattern or unauthorized data movement, to be able to push updates and, and patches quickly. So, so it's really about, you know, that, that manageability, that that level of control gives them the ability to offer a resilient and secure underlying networking infrastructure. And then, you know, finally one of the key benefits is cost savings of, you know, everybody is trying to be more efficient. And so from, from our perspective, it's, it's really about building an open platform. >>You know, we've built a platform or an x86 based platform. We've we chose that because we wanted to tap into a mature ecosystem that, you know, customers can leverage as they, as they build their build towards their modernizing modernization goals. And so we're like tech leveraging technologies, like UCPs so universal customer premise equipments. And so that's really just an open hardware platform, but what you get by consolidating your network functions like routing and firewall, and when optimization you, and when you consolidate it all onto a single device, you get hardware savings, cost savings. You, you get operational savings as well, right? So you've it, common hardware infrastructure means a common deployment model means a streamlined operations means fewer truck rolls, right? So, so there's a tremendous amount of, of, of benefit from the cost standpoint as well, because from our perspective, it's really that what customers are looking for, they need enterprise grade solutions that can scale in a cost-effective manner. >>That's awesome. You guys mentioned sassy earlier. I'm like, first of all, software as a service is very sassy, big modern application movements. Always get my hair sassy. I think, you know, a kind of a term around SAS software as a service, but for you guys, it's talking about secure access service edge, which is a huge category growth right now where, you know, per security and networking, it's a huge discussion SD win fits into that somehow, because it used to be campus networking before now. It's everyone's world is the same. Now it's connected. So sassy is huge. How does that fit into SD when it's in the trend of the SAS at the same? What's the difference? Cause wan has been booming for the past decade as well in terms of trends. How are you guys seeing those converging in what's the difference? >>You know, I like to also agree with you, this thing has been booming the last couple of years, right. You know, kind of, kind of bread and butter part of what we've been doing, but, you know, to your question in regards to kind of its linkage relative to sassy, right. You know, as you articulated, right. It's the sassy secure access service edge from a definition of the acronym. So it's authority is first kind of good to kind of define a little bit, maybe for some of those that may not be overly familiar with it. And I like to kind of dumb it down a little bit into the point of sassy is really an architecture that is around, you know, the convergence of networking and security being put together in a uniform platform or service that is delivered from both the cloud, as well as addressing, you know, their, their kind of traditional land requirements. >>Now digging in sassy is broken to two little buckets, right? It's broken into a network layer and the six security layer and by its definition, right, by, by a particular analyst, the network component, a big portion of that is SD wan. And so SD wan providing that value associated to what does, you know, dynamic lanes, steering automation, application attachments, so on and so forth is a core element of the foundation of the network layer associates, associate sassy. And then the other element of zesty is around the security bit. And so they're very much intrinsically linked, whether, you know, for example, like versus just the kind of mentioned this here, the, the, the sassy cloud that we built for our customers to leverage for private access, public access, you know, secure internet CASBY, DLP type of services is built upon SQM. In addition to our customers that are using Guesty Lampard or traditional land are using SD wan to connect to that cloud. >>So it's very, very much linked and they kind of go hand in hand, depending on your approach to the broader architecture. And, you know, another point I'll bring into that. What, what it also highlights is that whether it's around sassy or not, when we, when in pertinent to everything we'd been other kind of been talking about, the other thing that's coming with sun intrinsically and natively is really the concept of security it's around, whether it's security at the branch, or whether it's around some form of, you know, identity management or a point of improving posture for the, for the enterprise to, you know, obviously the spec traffic at the branch where remotely, but what we're seeing at a trend wise, which, you know, part by customer adoption from our own platform, if you will, is basically security and SD Wang coming together, whether for your traditional land transformation, or as a result of sassy services for a hybrid needs of connectivity, right? Remote workers, hybrid workforce, going into the cloud for, for their connectivity needs and optimizations. In addition to obviously the, the enterprises branch transformations, >>I like that native aspect of it. We used to joke and call SD way in St. Cloud because it's, we're all using cloud technologies. Talk about the security impact real quick. If you don't mind, I want to just double click them what you mentioned there, because I think the cloud effication plus the security piece seems to be a key part of this dynamic. Is that true? Or did they get that right? What's what's this all mean with cloud vacation? Yeah, >>And I, I would, I, I, I agree with, I guess kind of where you're leading into that is, you know, review all of us you're right now. Exactly. In talking with you right now, right. John is, as you stated at the beginning, we're all remote. And so from a business perspective, right, we are accessing, or from an engagement we're accessing a cloud service. Now what's critical for us, as you know, obviously enterprise employees is that our means of accessing this cloud service needs to have some level of hardening. We need to protect, right. Not only our own asset that we're using, right. Our laptops or other machinery that you use to connect to the network, but in addition to protect our company, right? So our company also needs to protect them. So how can we do that? Right? How can we do that in a very fast and distributed way? >>Sure. We can put security endpoints at every location with every user and every home. And that's one means of, of a particular solution. So your point about cloud is now take all of that and bring it to the cloud where you'd have a much more distributed means, right? And much more dynamically, scalable approach to actually doing that level of inspection, posture and, and enforcement. And so that's kind of where the rubber meets the road, right, is for us to access those cloud applications. The cloud that we're using as a conduit for security, as well as network also is now even connected and optimized paths to applications like what we're using right now, right. To, to, to do this conversation. So that's kind of where it meets together. And the security element is because we're so diverse, we just need, we, we, we need to ensure, right. We're all much, we're much more vulnerable. Right? My home network is, you know, maybe arguably maybe not as secure as when I go into an office. Right? >>So most people, because you have worked for virtual networks, >>I can make that argument. Yes. Right. But you know, the average, most of us, remote workers, you know, our homes aren't as hard. And so we point a point of risk, right? And so, as we, as we go to cloud apps, we're more connected to the internet. Right. You know, the, the, the point of being able to do this enforcement from a sassy concept helps provide that improved posture for enterprises to secure their traffic and get visibility into that. >>All my network engineer, friends are secure, as you read about. And I always joked to the malware, you missed, missed the wrong network engineer. If I go after them, their house, spear fishing. And you're trying to get into your network. I'd say, if I want to bring this back, because what we're bringing up here is cloud is actually enabling more on premises because you're working at home. That's a premise, right? So you're also edge is a premise edge and cloud. And a cloud kind of eliminates all this notion of what is cloud and edge, but at the end of the day is where you are. Right. So having the performance and the security and the partnership that same with Dell, I know you guys have been on this for a while because I've been covering it, but the notion of edge completely changes now, because what does that even mean? Home's edge is the camp of data centers and edge the, the cars and edge, the telco monopoles and edge. This is a big deal. This is the unit about the unification. This is all about making it all work. What's your, what's your take on this from the Dell perspective. >>Yeah. And I think, I mean, it that's, I mean, you, you kind of summarize it, right. I mean, what does edge mean to you? Right. It's and then, so every time I have a conversation with, with somebody, I always start with, let's define what your edge is. And so, you know, from, from our perspective, from the Dell perspective is, you know, we believe that we want to provide enterprise grade infrastructure. We want to give our customers the right tools. And we're seeing that with this trend of a hybrid workforce, a geographically dispersed user base, we're seeing a tremendous need for, you know, from it departments for tools, for solutions that can give them the control that they can sort of push out into their networks to ensure a safe and secure external access to corporate resources. Right. And so that's what we're committed to is making sure that, that, that management layer by either developing the solutions, in-house bringing the right partners to the table and just ensuring that our customers have the right tools because this sort of trend, or this, this, this new normal is not going away. And so we have to adapt. >>So thanks for coming on, Rob, we'll give you the final word. What's changed the most, in your opinion, with customers, environments, around how they're handling their networks as we come out of the pandemic, which has proven kind of which projects are working, which ones aren't where to double down on what was screwed up. I mean, come on. This is, we're kind of seeing it all play out. What's your, what's your take on as we come through the pandemic and people come out of this, what's the big learning. Okay. >>Well that you need partners. Right. Okay. So it's not even from a vendor perspective. What I mean by partners is what we're finding and what I think a lot of other customers I've engaged with and others is this ain't easy for even as much as we can within the technology vendor market, right. It's to make things easier to do. There's a lot of technology and the enterprise, it is recognized. They need a lot of these building blocks, right. To, to accomplish a lot of different things, whether it's around automation, to, in other tools as, as auto was leading into. And so we're finding that, you know, a lot of our, our base or our interactions are really trying to identify an appropriate partner that can help not only talk to the technology, but help them actually understand all the various different, you know, multi-colored legal blocks, they've got to put together, but also help help them actually put that into a realization. >>Right. And, you know, and then be able to then give the keys to them so they can eventually drive the car. Right. And so the learning that we're seeing here is this is a lot of tech, there's a lot of new tech, new approaches to existing technology of things that they've actually done. And they're, they're, they're looking for help. Right. And so they're looking for kind of, let's call it like trusted advisor kind of status of people that can help explain the technology to them and then help them understand how do they put it together. So they can then ultimately accomplish our overall kind of, you know, other kinds of objectives from an it perspective. And the other learning that I'll just say, and then I'll, then I'll stop. Here is SD wan isn't dead, right? Yes. The man is actually still driving. And it's actually an impetus for a lot of other things that enterprise is actually doing, whether it's around, you know, sassy, oriented services, remote access, private access, and other things of that nature. >>I totally agree. I think the networking, stuff's still going to be so much innovation going on with the edge exploding as well. That the really great, amazing stuff happening. Thanks for coming on this cube conversation, great conversation, taking it to the edge network challenges in the distributed hybrid workforce era is about moving things around the internet, making them secure. I'm John for your host. Thanks for watching.

from the cube studios in palo alto in boston bringing you data-driven insights from the cube and etr this is breaking analysis with dave vellante by our estimates aws will generate around nine billion dollars in storage revenue this year and is now the second largest supplier of enterprise storage behind dell we believe aws storage revenue will hit 11 billion in 2022 and continue to outpace on-prem storage growth by more than a thousand basis points for the next three to four years at its third annual storage day event aws signaled a continued drive to think differently about data storage and transform the way customers migrate manage and add value to their data over the next decade hello and welcome to this week's wikibon cube insights powered by etr in this breaking analysis we'll give you a brief overview of what we learned at aws's storage day share our assessment of the big announcement of the day a deal with netapp to run ontap natively in the cloud as a managed service and we'll share some new data on how we see the market evolving with aws executive perspectives on its strategy how it thinks about hybrid and where it fits into the emerging data mesh conversation let's start with a snapshot of the announcements made at storage day now as with most aws events this one had a number of announcements and introduced them at a pace that was predictably fast and oftentimes hard to follow here's a quick list of most of them with some comments on each the big big news is the announcement with netapp netapp and aws have engineered a solution which ports the rich netapp stack onto aws and will be delivered as a fully managed service this is a big deal because previously customers either had they had to make a trade-off they had a settle for cloud-based file service with less functionality than you could get with netapp on-prem or it had to lose the agility and elasticity of the cloud and the whole pay-by-the-drink model now customers can get access to a fully functional netapp stack with services like data reduction snaps clones the full multi-protocol support replication all the services ontap delivers in the cloud as a managed service through the aws console our estimate is that 80 of the data on-prem is stored in file format and that's not the revenue but that's the data and we all know about s3 object storage but the biggest market from a capacity standpoint is file storage you know this announcement reminds us quite a bit of the vmware cloud on aws deal but applied to storage netapp's aunt anthony lai told me dave this is bigger and we're going to come back to that in a moment aws announced s3 multi-region access points it's a service that optimizes storage performance it takes into account latency network congestion and the location of data copies to deliver data via the best route to ensure our best performance this is something we've talked about for quite some time using metadata to optimize that that access aws also announced improvements to s3 tiering where it will no longer charge for small objects of less than 128k so for example customers won't be charged for most metadata and other smaller objects remember aws years ago hired a bunch of emc engineers and those guys built a lot of tiering functionality into their boxes and we'll come back to that later in this episode aws also announced backup and monitoring tools to ensure backups are in compliance with regulations and corporate edicts this frankly is table stakes and was was overdue in my view aws also made a number of other announcements that have been well covered in the press around block storage and simplified data migration tools so we'll leave that to your perusal through other outlets i want to come back to the big picture on the market dynamics now as we've reported in previous breaking analysis segments aws storage revenue is on a path to 10 billion dollars we reported this last year this chart puts the market in context it shows our estimates for worldwide enterprise storage revenue in the calendar year 2021. this data is meant to include all storage revenue including primary secondary and archival storage and related maintenance services dell is the leader in the 60 billion market with aws now hot on its tail with 15 of the market in terms of the way we've cut it now in the pre-cloud days customers would tell us our storage strategy is the following we buy emc for block and netapp for file keeping it simple while remnants of this past habit continue the market is definitely changing as you can see here the companies highlighted in red represent the growing hyperscaler presence and you can see in the pi on the right they now account for around 25 percent of the market and they're growing much much faster than the on-prem vendors well over that thousand basis points when you combine them all a couple of other things to note in the data we're excluding kindrel from ibm's figures that's ibm spinout but including our estimates of storage software for example spectrums protect that is sold as part of the ibm cloud but not reported in ibm's income statement by the way pre-kindred spin ibm storage business we believe would approach the size of netapp's business now in the yellow we've highlighted the portion of hyper-converged that comprises storage this includes vmware nutanix cisco and others vmware and nutanix are the largest hci players but in total the storage piece of that market is less than two billion okay so the way to look at this market is changing traditional on-prem is vying for budgets with cloud storage services which are rapidly gaining presence in the market and we're seeing the on-prem piece evolve of course into as a service models with hpe's green lake dell's apex and other on-prem cloud-like models now let's come back to the netapp aws deal netapp as we know is the gold standard for file services they've been the market leader for a long long time and other than pure which is considerably smaller netapp is the one company that consistently was able to beat emc in the market emc developed its its nas business and developed on its own nasdaq and it bought isilon to compete with netapp with isilon's excellent global file system but generally netapp remains the best file storage company today now emerging disruptors like cumulo vast weka they would take issue with this statement and rightly so as they have really promising technology but netapp remains the king of the file hill you can't debate that now netapp however has had some serious headwinds as the largest independent storage player as seen in this etr chart the data shows a nine-year view of netapp's presence in the etr survey presence is referred to by etr as market share it's not traditional market share it measures the pervasiveness of responses in the etr survey over a thousand customers each quarter so the percentage of mentions essentially that netapp is getting and you can see well netapp remains a leader it has had a difficult time expanding its tam and it's become frankly less relevant in the eye in the grand scheme and the grand eyes of it buyers the company hit headwinds when it began migrating its base to ontap 8 and was late riding a number of new waves including flash but generally it is recovered from those headwinds and it's really now focused on the cloud opportunity opportunity as evidenced by this deal with aws now as i said earlier netapp evp anthony lai told me that this deal is bigger than vmware cloud on aws like me you may be wondering how can that be vmware is the leader in the data center it has half a million customers its deal with aws has been a tremendous success as seen in this etr chart the data here shows spending momentum or net score from when vmware cloud on aws was picked up in the etr surveys with a meaningful n which today is approaching 100 responses in the survey the yellow line is there for context it's vmware's overall business so repeat it buyers who responded vmware versus specifically vmware cloud on aws so you see vmware overall has a huge presence in the survey more than 600 n the red line is vmware cloud on aws and that red dotted line you see that that's that's my magic 40 mark anything above that line we consider elevated net score or spending velocity and while we saw some deceleration earlier this year in that line that top line for vmware cloud vmware cloud and aws has been consistently showing well in the survey well above that 40 percent line so could this netapp deal be bigger than vmware cloud on aws well probably not in our view but we like the strategy of netapp going cloud native on aws and aws's commitment to deliver this as a managed service now where could get interesting is across clouds in other words if netapp can take a page out of snowflake and build an abstraction layer that hides the underlying complexity of not only the aws cloud but also gcp and azure where you log into the netapp cloud netapp data cloud if you will just go ahead and steal steal it from snowflake and then netapp optimizes your on-prem your aws your azure and or your gcp file storage we see that as a winning strategy that could dramatically expand netapp's tam politically it may not sit well with aws but so what netapp has to go multi-cloud to expand that tam when the vmware deal was announced many people felt it was a one-way street where all the benefit would eventually accrue to aws in reality this has certainly been a near-term winner for aws and vmware and of course importantly vmware and aws join customers now longer term it's going to clearly be a win for aws because it gets access to vmware's customer base but we also think it will serve vmware well because it gives the company a clear and concise cloud strategy especially if it can go across clouds and eventually get to the edge so with this netapp aws deal will it be as big probably not in our view but it is big netapp in our view just leapfrogged the competition because of the deep engineering commitment aws has made this isn't a marketplace deal it's a native managed service and we think that's pretty huge okay we're going to close with a few thoughts on aws storage strategy and some other thoughts on hybrid talk about capturing mission critical workloads and where aws fits in the overall data mesh conversation which is one of our favorite topics first let's talk about aws's storage strategy overall as with other services aws approach is to give builders access to tools at a very granular level that means it does mean a lot of apis and access to primitives that are essentially building blocks while this may require greater developer skills it also allows aws to get to market quickly and add functionality faster than the competition enterprises however where they will pay up for solutions so this leaves some nice white space for partners and also competitors and especially the on-prem folks but let's hear from an aws executive i spoke to milan thompson bucheveck an aws vp on the cube and asked her to describe aws's storage strategy here's what she said play the clip we are dynamically and constantly evolving our aws storage services based on what the application and the customer want that is fundamentally what we do every day we talked a little bit about those deployments that are happening right now dave that is something that idea of constant dynamic evolution just can't be replicated by on-premises where you buy a box and it sits in your data center for three or more years and what's unique about us among the cloud services is again that perspective of the 15 years where we are building applications in ways that are unique because we have more customers and we have more customers doing more things so you know i i've said this before uh it's all about speed of innovation dave time and change wait for no one and if you're a business and you're trying to transform your business and base it on a set of technologies that change rapidly you have to use aws services i mean if you look at some of the launches that we talk about today and you think about s3's multi-region access points that's a fundamental change for customers that want to store copies of their data in any number of different regions and get a 60 performance improvement by leveraging the technology that we've built up over over time the the ability for us to route to intelligently router requests across our network that and fsx for netapp ontap nobody else has these capabilities today and it's because we are at the forefront of talking to different customers and that dynamic evolution of storage that's the core of our strategy so as you hear and can see by milan's statements how these guys think outside the box mentality at the end of the day customers want rock solid storage that's dirt cheap and lightning fast they always have and they always will but what i'm hearing from aws is they think about delivering these capabilities in the broader context of an application or a business think deeper business integration not the traditional suppliers don't think about that as well but the services mentality the cloud services mentality is different than dropping off a box at a loading dock turning it over to a professional services organization and then moving on to the next deal now i also had a chance to speak with wayne dusso he's another aws vp in the storage group wayne do so is a long time tech athlete for years he was responsible for building storage arrays at emc aws as i said hired a bunch of emcs years ago and those guys did a lot of tiered storage so i asked wayne what's the difference in mentality when you're building boxes versus cloud services here's what he said you have physical constraints you have to worry about the physical resources on that device for the life of that device which is years think about what changes in three or five years think about the last two years alone and what's changed can you imagine having being constrained by only uh having boxes available to you during this last two years versus having the cloud and being able to expand or contract based on your business needs that would be really tough right and it has been tough and that's why we've seen customers from every industry accelerate uh their use of the cloud during these last two years so i get that so what's your mindset when you're building storage services and data services so so each of the surfaces that we have in object block file movement services data services each of them provides very specific customer value in each are deeply integrated with the rest of aws so that when you need object services you start using them the integrations come along with you when if you're using traditional block we talked about ebs io2 block express when using file just the example alone today with ontap you know you get to use what you need when you need it and the way that you're used to using it without any concern so so the big difference is no constraints in the box but lots of opportunities to blend in with other services now all that said there are cases where the box is gonna win because of locality and and physics and latency issues you know particularly where latency is king that's where a box is gonna be advantageous and we'll come back to that in a bit okay but what about hybrid how does aws think about hybrid and on-prem here's my take and then let's hear from milan again the cloud is expanding it's moving out to the edge and aws looks at the data center as just another edge node and it's bringing its infrastructure as code mentality to that edge and of course to data centers so if aws is truly customer centric which we believe it is it will naturally have to accommodate on-prem use cases and it is doing just that here's how milan thompson-bucheveck explained how aws is thinking about hybrid roll the clip for us dave it always comes back to what the customer is asking for and we were talking to customers and they were talking about their edge and what they wanted to do with it we said how are we going to help and so if i just take s3 for outposts as an example or ebs and outposts you know we have customers like morningstar and morningstar wants outposts because they are using it as a step in their journey to being on the cloud if you take a customer like first adudabi bank they're using outposts because they need data residency for their compliance requirements and then we have other customers that are using outposts to help like dish networks as an example to place the storage as close as account to the applications for low latency all of those are customer driven requirements for their architecture for us dave we think in the fullness of time every customer and all applications are going to be on the cloud because it makes sense and those businesses need that speed of innovation but when we build things like our announcement today of fxs for netapp ontap we build them because customers asked us to help them with their journey to the cloud just like we built s3 and evs for outposts for the same reason so look this is a case where the box or the appliance wins latency matters as we said and aws gets that this is where matt baker of dell is right it's not a zero-sum game this is especially accurate as it pertains to the cloud versus on-prem discussion but a budget dollar is a budget dollar and the dollar can't go to two places so the battle will come down to who has the best solution the best relationships and who can deliver the most rock solid storage at the lowest cost and highest performance let's take a look at mission critical workloads for a second we're seeing aws go after these it's doing a database it's doing it with block storage we're talking about oracle sap microsoft sql server db2 that kind of stuff high volume oltp transactions mission critical work now there's no doubt that aws is picking up a lot of low hanging fruit with business critical workloads but the really hard to move work isn't going without a fight frankly it's not going that fast aws and mace has made some improvements to block storage to remove some of the challenges related but generally we see this is a very long road ahead for aws and other cloud suppliers oracle is the king of mission critical work along with ibm mainframes and those infrastructures generally it's not easy to move to the cloud it's too risky it's too expensive and the business case oftentimes isn't there because very frequently you have to freeze applications to do so what generally what people are doing is they're building an abstraction layer over that putting that abstraction layer maybe in the cloud building new apps that can connect to the back end and the into the cloud but that back end is largely cemented and fossilized look it's all in the definition no doubt there's plenty of mission critical work that is going to move but just really depends on how you define it even aws struggles to move its most critical transaction systems off of oracle but we'll continue to keep an open mind there it's just that today we define the most mission-critical workloads as we define them we don't see a lot of movement to the hyperscale clouds and we're going to close with some thoughts on data mesh so one of our favorite topics we've written extensively about this and interviewed and are collaborating with jamaa dagani who has coined the term and we've announced a media collaboration with the data mesh community and believe it's a strong direction for the industry so we wanted to understand how aws thinks about data mesh and where it fits in the conversation here's what milan had to say about that play the clip we have customers today that are taking the data mesh architectures and implementing them with aws services and dave i want to go back to the start of amazon when amazon first began we grew because the amazon technologies were built in microservices fundamentally a data match is about separation or abstraction of what individual components do and so if i look at data mesh really you're talking about two things you're talking about separating the data storage and the characteristics of data from the data services that interact and operate on that storage and with data mesh it's all about making sure that the businesses the decentralized business model can work with that data now our aws customers are putting their storage in a centralized place because it's easier to track it's easier to view compliance and it's easier to predict growth and control costs but we started with building blocks and we deliberately built our storage services separate from our data services so we have data services like lake formation and glue we have a number of these data services that our customers are using to build that customized data mesh on top of that centralized storage so really it's about at the end of the day speed it's about innovation it's about making sure that you can decentralize and separate your data services from your storage so businesses can go faster so it's very true that aws has customers that are implementing data mess data mesh data mess data mesh can be a data mess if you don't do it right jpmorgan chase is a firm that is doing that we've we've covered that they've got a great video out there check out the breaking analysis archive you'll see that hellofresh has also initiated a data mesh architecture in the cloud and several others are starting to pop up i think the point is the issues and challenges around data mesh are more organizational and process related and less focused on the technology platform look data by its very nature is decentralized so when mylan talks about customers building on centralized storage that's a logical view of the storage but not necessarily physically centralized it may be in a in a hybrid device it may be a copy that lives outside of that same physical location this is an important point as jpmorgan chase pointed out the data mesh must accommodate data products and services that are in the cloud and also on-prem it's got to be inclusive the data mesh looks at the data store as a node on the data mesh it shouldn't be confined by the technology whether it's a data warehouse a data hub a data mart or an s3 bucket so i would say this while people think of the cloud as a centralized walled garden and in many respects it is that very same cloud is expanding into a massively distributed architecture and that fits with the data mesh architectural model as i say the big challenges of data mesh are less technical and more cultural and we're super excited to see how data mesh plays out over time and we're really excited to be part of part of the the community and a media partner of the data mesh community okay that's it for now remember i publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com and these episodes they're all available as podcasts all you do is search for breaking analysis podcasts you can always connect on twitter i'm at d vellante or email me at david.velante at siliconangle.com i appreciate the comments you guys make on linkedin and don't forget to check out etr.plus for all the survey action this is dave vellante for the cube insights powered by etr be well and we'll see you next time [Music] you

from the cube studios in palo alto in boston bringing you data driven insights from the cube and etr this is breaking analysis with dave vellante as we watch an historic election unfold before our eyes we look back at the early days of the millennium with the memorable presidential race of 2000 that decade of course was defined by 911 which permanently reshaped our thinking and we exited that decade at the tail end of a massive financial crisis only to enter the 2010s with the hope and the momentum of fiscal stimulus a flat globe job growth and very importantly the ascendancy of the cloud cloud computing unquestionably powered the innovation engine over the last 10 years and the pandemic marks a new era where adoption of cloud data and ai have been accelerated by at least two to three years and that's what's going to shape the future of the technology industry and frankly all businesses and organizations hello everyone and welcome to this week's episode of thecube insights powered by etr in this breaking analysis we're going to update you on our latest cloud market share and dig in to some fresh october survey data from our partners over at etr let me start just with a brief summary of the latest action that's going on in cloud now quite interestingly each of the big three cloud players they showed nearly identical year-on-year growth rates in q3 as they did in q2 now we're going to dig into that in a moment but our data suggests that these three companies combined will account for more than 75 billion dollars in infrastructure as a service and platform as a service revenue in 2020 and they're potentially on track to hit 100 billion in 2021. customer survey data indicates that cio's top two infrastructure priorities remain security and cloud migration now that said as we previously reported the cloud it's not immune to the pandemic the remote worker pivot well it's a positive for cloud hasn't completely eradicated certain headwinds now what i mean here is that because the cloud vendors are now so large they're somewhat exposed to the softness in the overall i.t spending climate and also industries that have been hit hardest by the pandemic now would the cloud growth have been better if the pandemic didn't hit we'll never know for sure but our data suggests no covet has definitely been a benefactor to cloud in our view cloud will remain at the center of technological innovation for the foreseeable future the economics of cloud are becoming so compelling that we think the power of the big cloud companies will only increase this decade now importantly we're talking about the costs of running hyper-distributed systems we're not commenting here on what they charge customers that's a different story we believe the cost structure for the hyperscalers is superior to alternative approaches and we believe this advantage will only accelerate over the next several years we also believe that competition is going to continue to drive competitive pricing and innovation all right let's look at our latest market share numbers for the big three this chart shows our estimates of aws azure and the google cloud platform now viewers of this program know that these are is and pass figures and you also know that aws is the only company that provides clean numbers on that sector whereas azure and gcp are estimates that we make based on tidbits of guidance that the companies give us and survey data that we capture and other modeling that we do now as we've said we'll end this year it's about 75 billion in revenue or maybe even a little bit more note that for these three note that we've we've slightly restated some of our earlier estimates for azure to reconcile some differences that we had between constant currency and actual growth we try to keep things in constant currency where possible sorry for that but sometimes that happens azure according to our estimates as we reported last week is now 18 of microsoft's overall revenue number we had it at 19 that last week but when i dug in we made some adjustments so we toned it down a bit aws represents a much smaller percentage of course of amazon's revenues at about 12 percent but it represents 56 percent of amazon's profits gcp on the other hand accounts for less than five percent of google's overall revenue which as we've stated a few weeks ago needs more attention from google but look at the growth rates for these three platforms and the respective size of their is and pass businesses hear all this talk about repatriation i.e that what i mean by that is people go to the cloud but they're unhappy or the bill is too high it's too expensive so then they come back on prem well you just don't see that in the numbers so you gotta be careful when vendor a vendor tries to sell you on that trend i don't buy it except for selective situations now let's bring in some of the etr data and compare the spending momentum for each of the big three you've seen these wheel graphs before they show the breakdown of net score for aws microsoft and google now one note these figures represent these three companies overall within the etr technology taxonomy so for example they don't include amazon's retail business of course but they do include for example microsoft's entire tech portfolio not just the cloud the green portion of the wheel represents increases in spending via new adoptions and increased spending whereas the red sections show decreases via lower spending and defections net score which i've highlighted in the orange is calculated by subtracting the two reds from the two true greens in other words adoptions and increase minus decrease and replacements the takeaway here is these are all pretty strong with aws leading the pack microsoft is exceptionally strong as we pointed out last last week because they're so huge and they still have net scores comparable to aws which is a pure play gcp is a laggard and is showing softness in the data despite a sanguine outlook that we had back in 2019 based on survey data i don't know perhaps google's smaller presence muted their customers ability to take advantage of the platform the thinking there is the customers maybe needed to pivot to the cloud so quickly and aws and azure were the incumbents and that was maybe the most expedient path hence the higher increases in the spend more category but you do see gcp um they had 13 new adoptions which is pretty good so we'll keep looking at that regardless again these are not pure play cloud comparisons but they give a good indication of spending momentum i'd also note that all three show very low defections well each is showing solid increases in new adoptions especially google as i mentioned so that's kind of interesting to see but again google much much smaller you would expect that now i want to turn our attention to one of the hottest areas in cloud which is serverless and this is a pure play comparison so serverless let me start there it's a strange term because it's not really accurate but it's stuck serverless computing is a model where the cloud platform dynamically delivers services as the application requires so so you don't have to configure the compute and the containers for example rather when an application needs resources it goes and gets them and you only pay for when the services are actually invoked and in use so it's really good for workloads that spin up and spin down very frequently it kind of reminds me in concept anyway of the component tree that we saw in the days of soa if you remember that services oriented architecture but now this is cloud it's cloud native it's a whole new world and it's increasingly a popular model and as we'll show in a moment there's a lot of spending momentum in this area but before we do that i want to share some comments made by andy jassy a while back about serverless take a listen it's a good question and you know i really the comment i made was really about um directionally what amazon would do you know in this in the very earliest days of aws jeff used to say a lot if i were starting amazon today i'd have built it on top of aws we didn't have all the capability and all the functionality at that very moment but he knew what was coming and he saw what people were still able to accomplish even with where the services were at that point i think the same thing is true here with lambda which is i think if amazon were starting today it's a given they would build it on the cloud and i think with a lot of the applications that comprise amazon's consumer business we would build those on on our serverless capabilities now now lambda of course jesse referring to lambda that's amazon's serverless offering and if you think about amazon's retail business and take for example the frequent spin up and spin down of resources for something like black monday serverless would be a much more cost effective approach same for a managed data warehouse service for example where you know you don't want to pay for the compute if it's idle the app just calls for the compute when it's needed so it's a very popular model and it's got increased momentum today and you see that in this slide it shows the net score breakdown for serverless for azure aws is lambda which is again is their serverless offering and google cloud functions again you're shipping functions to the application that's why it's called functions look at the net scores azure functions nearly 70 aws at 65 google again lagging and that's a bit of a concern because this is a really really hot space all right let's move on and look at the competitive landscape as we like to do often and update you on that this xy graph is one of our favorites and it shows net score or spending momentum on the vertical axis and market share on the horizontal market share is a measure of pervasiveness in the data set in the upper right you also see a table that ranks each vendor my net score and it includes the shared n in other words the number of mentions in this sector for each vendor now you can you can see up top in the middle i've selected on the cloud computing category so this represents only the cloud businesses for each of these players there's a little bit of nuance here and that we've selected on microsoft azure there's a category in the etr taxonomy for that and we're comparing that with aws overall so there's there are things in the aws overall number that fit into the other parts of the taxonomy like maybe ai collaboration etc whereas azures and gcp are just the cloud segments so i i know it's a bit strange because aws is all cloud but don't get caught up in the taxonomical nuance the point is it's good to be azure in aws it's shown there when you look at the upper right of the chart here they stand out and they stand alone in cloud leadership google cloud is they have nice elevated levels but they're much much smaller they don't have the presence in the market now look at that hybrid cloud zone emerging we've talked about this sometimes in the past and and i want to call it vmware cloud on aws red hat open shift and vmware cloud itself like vmware cloud foundation and their other cloud services all of these appear to be gaining traction and you can see in the number of occurrences in the upper right that shared end that i talked about we're starting to see real numbers that are meaningful in this space vmware cloud on aws for example has a net score of 53 percent with 116 accounts within that total respondent sample that you see there in the middle left of 1438 that's how many cios and technology buyers responded to the etr survey in october you look at open shift at 45 net score and that's with 82 accounts now openshift is in beta with what looked to be some really strong offerings on aws and you can see for context i've added dell emc's cloud offerings hpe's cloud offerings and the oracle cloud and ibm cloud and also rackspace dell actually pretty strong with a net score of 20 and 185 shared accounts much much higher than dell overall which is kind of in the red zone oracle ibm you see those rackspace you know organizing not killing it rackspace is kind of in the big negative so that's a concern but anyway we'd like for these guys we'd like to see the data match the marketing rhetoric for the the guys that are in the red and look alibaba is starting to to show up in the server there's only 26 shared ends but we thought we'd we'd put it in there those three key points again aws and microsoft keep on trucking google needs to do better hybrid is becoming real and that bodes well for multi-cloud and the legacy on-prem guys they got a lot of work to do they're under a lot of pressure the pivot to cloud has not been easy for them uh and it's still a case where they're i've talked about this a lot they're they're declines in their on-premises offerings they're not being offset by the new stuff the cloud momentum all right i want to close out by sharing some of the conversations and thoughts that we've had in the community around sas and its impact on cloud we really have been focusing on ias and pass of the sas layer obviously up the stack so let me first share that there's a lot of talk around and has been for years about aws they're slowing growth rates and whether or not they'll have to enter the sas market to expand their total available market and i've said consistently while i never say never about aws i don't think so at least not yet this chart plots the big three cloud players note aws is a bigger piece of this pie now that i've turned off the cloud computing filter and i know more nuances but the data wonks will will find you know see this and they'll ask me about it this is all of aws portfolio and again it's only the microsoft azure portfolio so you see it aws now overtakes azure on the x-axis i.e market share now we've plotted some of the major sas vendors and you can see servicenow and salesforce both very large and they have really strong spending momentum and servicenow's you know pushing 100 billion dollars in market value they've surpassed workday quite some time ago workday's got less presence but they've got really really solid net score and i got to say i'm impressed with sap despite some of the earnings challenges that they've been having they're right up there with splunk and tableau splunk has softened in recent surveys and i've i've also plotted in there netsuite and oracle fusion which are just okay and that is i think for now anyway aws is going to position as the best place and the most friendly and highest quality cloud in which to run your sas for example workday runs on aws aws is salesforce's preferred infrastructure platform so my premise here is just like retail companies might want not want to run on aws a number of sas companies that compete with microsoft they might think twice about running on azure so aws would be better off for now trying to attract those sas players and drive their services and sticking to infrastructure and the pass layer snowflake is actually kind of interesting and i've added them for context because their netscore is always kind of a bellwether it's really off the charts and they're an isv running on the cloud they're different from some of the other sas players and the snowflake is a database okay and most of snowflake's business runs on aws and aws competes with snowflake with redshift but aws has the best cloud and drives a lot of business for snowflake and vice versa so it's kind of interesting snow snowflake to redshift and a much smaller example is kind of like netflix to amazon prime video to compete they both thrive so i think aws is going to continue to grow by attracting sas players as the preferred platform and they'll also attract developers and try to disrupt sas players like servicenow which runs on its own cloud i remember years ago david floyer and i said that servicenow was it was awesome but at some point its infrastructure cost structure its infrastructure cost structure is going to be less competitive than those companies that are running on hyperscale clouds certainly the hyperscale clouds themselves and servicenow they have this multi-instance architecture which just can't easily port over to the cloud but it can charge a lot which it does now at some point some sharp developers are going to look at all this and say whoa see that service now i can build this for less and they'll attack servicenow and their seat base license model maybe with the consumption pricing model and a platform that's perhaps or a set of services that are perhaps less expensive you're seeing this to a you know a certain degree with like elastic inside the application performance management space so there's some some things to watch there but there are those who firmly believe that aws will and must enter the sas space directly we talked last week about how beneficial microsoft's application business is for azure and what a flywheel that is but for me i think we're not there yet let's give it some time i think maybe four to five years before aws may even start to think about filling some of the space up the stack now maybe they'll find some unique opportunities to do that for instance at the edge but i think that's way off okay so bottom line it's good to be in tech these days it's even better to be in the cloud and it's best if you're aws and microsoft and i don't see that changing for a while now remember these episodes are all available as podcasts wherever you listen i publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com you can get in touch with me through email it's david at siliconangle.com feel free to dm me on twitter at d vallante i post on linkedin love your comments there thank you and don't forget to check out etr plus for all the survey action thanks for watching this episode of thecube insights powered by etr this is dave vellante stay safe stay sane and we'll see you next time you

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of a new era and database management brought to you by Nutanix. >>Welcome back. I'm still minimum and we're covering Nutanix Is New Era database launch Of course, we had to do instead of conversation with Monica Ambala talking about era to Dato and to dig into it a little bit further. We have some new tennis guests as well as what? One of their close partners. So going across the channel, first of all, happy to welcome to the program. Uh, the new kid UPA she is the gsc strategy and go to market with Nutanix sitting in the middle chair we have on and Akila whose product marketing leader with Nutanix and then from HCL happy to welcome to the program Tasing who is the senior vice president with HCL Technologies. I mentioned all three of you. Thank you so much for joining us. >>Glad to be here, >>right? Uh they knew What? Why don't we start with you? You handle the relationship between Nutanix and HCL. As I said, some exciting announcements database services help us understand how Ah partner like HCL takes the technology and what will help bring it to market. >>Let me start by thanking used to for this opportunity. Head Seal is a very significant partner for Nutanix and we've had this partnership for a long time now. It's one of our long standing partnership. Over the five years we've closed over 100 accounts across all three theaters. Trained professionals both on the Nutanix side on the outside, on built a 3 60 relationships so we can deliver the best experience around solutions to our partners. In the very recent announcement, we're looking to build a database as a service offering. With that CL we want Thio leverage are intelligent technology that allows us to simplify off and increase operating efficiency. Andi Couple it with head seals ability to offer world class services on it. It's a scale to reach the go to market needs needed right. We're very confident that the solution is going to drive significant incremental business for both our companies. >>Excellent taste. We would love to hear from your standpoint. What is it that excites you? We we know HCL knows the data space real well. So I think you've got some customers that air looking to take advantage of some of these new offerings. >>Yeah, So if you look at where the focus has been so far, most of the focus is on taking applications to cloud and moving them from VM two probably containers one of the most. Uh, I won't say, uh, neglected, but the space that needs to change now is the entire database space on. If you look at how customers are managing databases today, they have taken hardware on a KPIX model. They have the operating system and the database licenses on L. A model from the E. M s on. Then they have, ah, teams which are siloed depending upon the database technology that is there in the environment and managing that I think that whole model is has to change, enabling customers to transform Onda accelerate the digital transformation journey on. That is where our offering off database as a service ises very unique because it offers a full stack off services which includes right from hardware and all the way to operations on a completely utility model powered by the Nutanix era. >>Yeah, on it might make sense if you could give us a little bit of a broader context for your users. Some of the data that you have around this offering, >>yeah, you know, attend effect. All the solution, our joint solutions. Our customers, uh, they are trying to deliver the best individual experience, right? That's at the heart of it. What they're trying to do, I'll give you a couple of customer examples. For example, Arbil Bank in India. You know, they deployed their database solutions and applications, and Nutanix got 16 fasters application response. That means like they used to take 180 seconds. Uh, Thio logging into the application. And now it's, uh, 20 seconds, 36 times faster. Another example I could give. I can give many examples, but when this one is really interesting, Delaware Valley community held, you know, at the time of Kobe they went remote. They started working from home and they had medical systems applications. EMR electronic medical record applications and used to take even before they were working from home, is take like 171 seconds to log into medical systems before they could, you know, talk to their patients and look at their, you know, health results and everything and that from 171 seconds, it went to 19 seconds. So these are some of the values that customers seeing when it comes to delivering the individual experience to their customers. >>Yeah, absolutely. We've seen police stage go ahead. >>Yeah, and I just had to What men? Who said that? It's also the ability tohave self service with dynamic provisioning capability that really brings the value toe the to the I T teams and to the application teams who are consuming these services. So we have cases where customers were waiting for about a week, 10 days for the environments to be provisioned to them. And now it's a matter of seconds or minutes where they can have a full fledged environments leading to develop a productivity. And that also really adds the whole acceleration that we just spoke about. >>Yeah, we we've absolutely seen such a transformation in database for the longest time. It was, you know, a database. It didn't change too much. That's what everything run on Now there's a lot of flexibility. Open source is a big piece of what's going on there. I'd like to come back to you and you know, they know. I know you're gonna want to chime in here. You know, HCL doesn't just, you know, take this off the shelf and, you know, resell it, help us understand. You know what is unique about the offering that that HCL brings market? Uh, with with >>Nutanix. Right. So one is that we have standardized reference architectures, which really x ray the time to consume the offering. We're not building anything from from from ground up. Three Nutanix is also part off our velocity framework, which helps customers deploy software defined infrastructure as the as a foundation element for their for their private cloud. Now, what is unique is also the ability toe not only provide operations on different databases that are there in the environment on a completely utility model, but also help customers, you know, move to cloud and adopt the database clouded of databases and then manage the whole show seamlessly using using the BP platform and that really, you know, if you look at the trend that is there, there's a short term impact on the long term impact off transformation. In the short term, there's hardly an industry which is not touched by by covert on most of our customers are either looking at cost or initiatives or are looking at ah platform, which will help them in a weight or find new business model to to sail through. In the long term, we strongly believe that the customers will be in a hybrid, multi cloud world where they will still have the heritage environments. The article and the Sequels on a lot off cloud native data business will also start coming into picture. How do you manage is also seamlessly is what will be the next challenge for for most of the customers. And that's where we come in, along with Nutanix, to solve the problem. >>Well, very simply put right, we have different categories of customers. One off them refers to buy the ingredients and make their own meal on some really large customers, and global customers prefer to buy the meal and pay for it on on as consumer basis. What that seal does is take era, which simplifies a lot of the database operations, puts it into a full stack solution and gives the customer the full stack solution. Everything from assessing that environment to deploying, to making sure that the designers I accurate and then of course, the day and through they do through and, uh, uh, environment, right. So literally the customer can Now I'll offload any off their data center, our database management and operation to hit cl from my perspective on do rest assured, run their projects toe, etc. Also, excel becomes their extended arm, the beauty off. It is also like working with dead C. Elgar now able to offer the entire solution on a pay as you go model or pay as you use model, which is very relevant to the existing times where everybody is trying to cut their Catholics costs and and optimized on the utilization. >>Well, great. Great to hear about that. You've mentioned that this partnership has been for many years, so I know you've got plenty of joint customers. Anything specifically could share about these new offerings on. And I know you've got a lot of the customer stories there. Maybe you could start would look love, freedom. The rest of you, >>Thio, I'll start what? You know, Like I talked about a couple of customers. But recently I'm really excited about. And this is something that to be a announcing today as well. Ah, study that we did with Forrester called Forrester T I study, which is what it means total economic impact study. And what they do is that they topped with customers, uh, interviewed them, four of them. And based on their experience, uh, you know what? They observe what kind of benefit they got, what challenges they had, what was cause they built an economic model. And based on that economic model, they found that customers were rolled all off them were able to get their payback within six months. So Bala talked about it earlier that, you know, like all the great experience, all the great value that we offer, but at a very, very good cost. So the six less than six months payback was used and the r y for the three years period and again, this is ah, model based on four enterprises was 2 91 100% almost like three times mawr. So whatever they invested, I think on an average day the cost was 2.3 million and the benefit was nine million or so so huge value customers have observed already. And with this new launch, I believe that it will just go to the next level. All the things about provisioning copy data saving that the stories All of that adds to the R Y that I'm talking about and our joint customers with SCL or otherwise, who are customers who are running their applications, their business critical applications on you can X Platform managed by era an era is built out off a bunch off best practices that over time that we have done. I talked about custom performance earlier, and a lot of the performance comes from fine tuning. You do that like a lot of tea tuning and to get to the right kind of performance. Uh, era comes with that, those best practices. So when your provisioning an application, you know, it gives you you don't have to do all that tuning. So that's the value customers are experiencing. And I'm really excited about the joint customers what they could experience and benefit out off the new expanded solution. >>Great Tiger. Any other customer examples that you'd like to share? >>Well, we got a lot of go ahead page, >>but it's okay. >>No, I was just saying that we've had a lot of success with Head cl across the board anywhere from data center organization Thio v. D. I. We had a very large manufacturing company in America where we partner together. They have a huge number of sub brands. We partnered together to go evaluate that environment and then also even that is a B infrastructure with databases. It's a relatively new offering we're announcing today. But we're leveraging the expertise that SCL has in the market, uh, to go to go deeper into that market with cl eso. I will leave it to page to give us the NCL examples. >>So one thing that is happening is the very definition off infrastructure and infrastructure operation itself is changing. So a couple of years ago, for many of our customers, it was about operating system management, hardware management, network management and all the use. Uh, the concept that you're going back to customer is about platform operations. That means everything to do with application operations. Downward is going to be done by one integrated unit. Now, with Nutanix, we can we can really bring a lot of change, and we're bringing a lot of change in our in the operations model for for lot off a large customers where earlier you had siloed teams around Compute network storage, offering system databases both at the Level two and level three, and you had a level one, which was basically command center. Now, we're saying is that with the artificial intelligence and machine learning driven OBS, you can practically eliminate the need for command center on the level two layer because the platform enables you toe be multi skilled. You need not have siloed engineers looking after databases separately on and operating system separately. You can have the same sort of people who are cross train, multi skilled, looking at the entire state. On at level three. You may want to keep people who are deep into databases as a separate team, then from people who are managing the Nutanix platform, which is a combination off compute storage and and and and the SCN. So that's the change that we're bringing. A lot of our customers were going about infrastructure, platform modernization, Azaz, the public cloud or hybrid clubs. >>Well, I think you're really articulated well, that modernization journey we've seen so many companies going through. The thing I've been saying with Nutanix for years is modernize the platform, then you can modernize everything that runs on top of it. All the applications on, of course, did databases a major piece of this on. And that brings up a point I want to get your take on. We haven't talked about developers, you know, the DEV ops trend. Something we've seen, you know, huge growth for for a number of years. So what >>does this >>mean from developers? This something that you know, mostly the infrastructure team's gonna handle. Or how do you bridge that gap to the people that really are? You know, building and building and building the APS. >>Yeah. And in this digital world, you know the cycle time from idea to production. Everyone is trying to reduce that. What that means is that things are moving left. People are trying to develop and test early in the life cycle when it is easy to find a problem and easy to and cheaper to fix. Right. So for that, you need a your application environment, your application and database available to test and develop in, uh, you know, like in volume. And that's where databases the service era helps developers and develops professionals to provision in the whole infrastructure for testing and involvement in hundreds and thousands of them at the same time without, you know, worrying about the storage back back and how much story it is consuming. So it is. It helps developers to to really expedite their development and testing left lifecycle ultimately resulting in excellent and unique experience. >>Yeah, absolutely way no. Of just moving faster. Being able to respond to the business so critically important. Uh, they know Tasia wanna let you have the final word Talk about the partnership and what we should expect, you know, in the coming months and quarters. >>So, uh, I'll go first. And then we can come in, uh, a salon and Nutanix you to share the same values where we believe that we need to provide a very innovative platform for our customers to accelerate their digital transformation journey. No matter what it is right, we share common values and way have a 3 60 degree relationship. It started way back in 2015 and we have come a long way since then. A C also does engineering services for for Nutanix, and we have closed about 850 r plus people who has prayed and 35 on Nutanix Solutions. Providing manage services to our customers on Nutanix is also part off our software defined infrastructure portfolio on we're taking it to our customers as part of our entire infrastructure platform modernization that, I suppose talk about earlier three recent announcement off Nutanix clusters running on AWS. I think it's a significant announcement and it will provide a lot off options to our customers. And as an S, I, uh, you know, we are able to bring a lot of value to our customers. We're looking at adopting cloud the database as a service offering. I think we're very excited about it. I I think we have about 300 plus customers, and many of them are still stuck with the way they are managing databases the old way. And we can bring in a lot of value to those customers, whether it is about reducing cars or increasing agility or helping them modern ice, The platform one ended up hybrid multi club >>business critical lapse are growing, are still growing, and data is pretty much gold in these scenarios, right? It's it's doubling every two years, if not more with every transaction being remote today with zeal. We actually look forward to addressing that market and optimizing the environment for our customers. Both of our companies believe in partnership crossed and the customer first mindset. And when you have that belief, trust comes with delivering the best experience to our customers. So we're looking forward to this partnership and you're looking forward to growing our joint revenue and modernizing our customers platforms with this often? >>Well, I wanna thank all three of you for for sharing the exciting news. Absolutely. It looks like a strong partnership. Lots of potential there for the future. So thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for >>having thank you. Mhm. >>All right, when I think the audience were watching this lot with Nutanix, the new era in database management personally, a big thank you to the Nutanix community has been a pleasure being able to host these interviews with Nutanix for for many years. So I'm still minimum and thank you as always for watching the Cube

>> Narrator: From around the globe. It's theCUBE with digital coverage of A New Era In Database Management. Brought to you by Nutanix. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman. And welcome to this special presentation with Nutanix. We're talking about A New Era In Database Management. To help us dig into it, first of all, I have the Senior Vice President and General Manager of Nutanix Era Databases and Business Critical Applications, that is Bala Kuchibhotla. And one of our other CUBE alongs, Monica Kumar. Who's an SVP also with Nutanix. Bala, Monica, thank you so much for joining us. >> Thank you, thank you so... >> Great to be here. All right, so first of all, Bala a new Era. We, have a little bit of a punj. You've got me with some punjs there. Of course we know that the database for Nutanix solution is Era. So, we always like to bring out the news first. Why don't you tell us, what does this mean? What is Nutanix announcing today? >> Awesome. Thank you, Stu. Yeah, so today's a very big day for us. I'm super excited to inform all of us and our audience that we are announcing the Eratory dot two GA bits for customers to enjoy it. Some customers can download and start playing with it. So what's new with Nutanix Eratory dot two? As you knows 1.0 is a single cluster solution meaning the customers have to have a Nutanix cluster and then have around the same cluster to enjoy the databases. But with Eratory dot two, it becomes multi-cluster solution. It's not just a multi-cluster solution, but customers can enjoy database across clusters, That means that they can have their Always On Availability Groups SQL servers, their Postgres servers across Nutanix clusters. That means that they can spread across Azure Availability Zones. Now, the most interesting point of this is, it's not just across clusters, customers can place these clusters in the cloud. That is AWS. You can have Nutanix cluster in the AWS cluster and then the primary production clusters maybe on the Nutanix and primary enterprise cloud kind of stuff, that's number one. Number two, we have extended our data management capabilities, data management platform capabilities, and what we call them as global time mission. Global time mission with a data access management. Like racing river, that you need to harness the racing river by constructing a dam and then harness it for multipurpose either irrigation projects or hydroelectric project kind of stuff. You need to kind of do the similar things for your data in company, enterprise company. You need to make sure that the right persons get the right amount of data, so that you don't kind of give all production data to everyone in the company. At the same time, they also need the accessible, with one click they can get the database, the data they want. So that's the data access management. Imagine a QA person only gets the sanitized snapshots or sanitize database backups for them to create the copies. And then we are extending our database engine portfolios too to introduce SAP HANA to the thing. As you know, that we support Oracle today, Postgres, MalSQL, Mariadb SQL server. I'm excited to inform that we are introducing SAP HANA. Our customers can do one click sandbox creation into an environment for SAP HANA predown intense platform. And lastly, I'm super excited to inform that we are becoming a Postgres vendor. We are willing to give 24 by seven, 365 day support but Postgres database engine, that's kind of a provision through Nutanix setup platform. So this way the customers can enjoy the engine, platform, service all together in one single shot with a single 180 company that they can call and get the support they want. I'm super duper excited that this is going to make the customers a truly multicloud multi cluster data management platform. Thank you. >> Yeah. And I'll just add to that too. It's fantastic that we are now offering this new capability. I just want to kind of remind our audience that Nutanix for many years has been providing the foundation the infrastructure software, where you can run all these multiple workloads including databases today. And what we're doing with Era is fantastic because now they are giving our customers the ability to take that database that they run on top of Nutanix to provide that as a service now. So now are talking to a whole different organization here. It's database administrations, it's administrators, it's teams that run databases, it teams that care about data and providing access to data and organizations. >> Well, first of all, congratulations, I've taught for a couple of years to the teams at Nutanix especially some of the people working on PostgreSQL really exciting stuff and you've both seen really the unlocking of database. It used to be ,we talked about, I have one database it's kind of the one that everything runs on. Now, customers they have more databases. You talked about that flexibility is then, where we run it. We'd love to hear, maybe Monica we start with you. You talk about the customers, what does this really mean for them? Because one of our most mission critical applications we talk about, we're not just throwing our databases or what. I don't wake up in the morning and say, Oh let me move it to this cloud and put it in this data center. This needs to be reliable. I need to have access to the data. I need to be able to work with it. So, what does this really mean? And what does it unlock for your customers? >> Yes absolutely, I love to talk about this topic. I mean, if you think about databases, they are means to an end. And in this case, the end is being able to mine insights from the data and then make meaningful decisions based on that. So when we talk to customers, it's really clear that data has not become one of the most valuable assets that an organization owns. Well, of course, in addition to the employees that are part of the organization and our customers. Data is one of the most important assets. But most organizations, the challenges they face is a lot of data gets collected. And in fact, we've heard numbers thrown around for many years like, almost 80% of world's data has been created in the last like three or four years. And data is doubling every two years in terms of volume. Well guess what? Data gets collected. It sits there and organizations are struggling to get access to it with the right performance, the right security and regulation compliance, the reliability, availability, by persona, developers need certain access, analysts needs different access line of businesses need different access. So what we see is organizations are struggling in getting access to data at the right time by the right person on the team and when they need it. And I think that's where database as a service is critical. It's not just about having the database software which is of course important but how you know not make that service available to your stakeholders, to developers to lines of business within the SLAs that they demand. So is it instantly? How quickly can you make it available? How quickly can you use have access to data and do something meaningful with it? And mind the insights for smarter business? And then the one thing I'd like to add is that's where IT and business really come together. That's the glue. If you think about it today, what is the blue between an IT Organization and a business organization? It's the data. And that's where they're really coming together to say how can we together deliver the right service? So you, the business owner can deliver the right outcome for our business. >> That's very true. Maybe I'll just add a couple of comments there. What we're trying to do is we are trying to bring the cloud experience, the RDS-like experience to the enterprise cloud and then hybrid cloud. So the customers will now have a choice of cloud. They don't need to be locked in a particular cloud, at the same time enjoy the true cloud utility experience. We help customers create clouds, database clouds either by themselves if that's big enough to manage the cloud themselves or they can partner with a GSIs like Wipro, WorkHCL and then create a completely managed database service kind of stuff. So, this brings this cloud neutrality, portability for customers and give them the choice and their terms, Stu. >> Well Bala, absolutely we've seen a huge growth in managed services as you've said, maybe bring us inside a little bit. What is free up customers? What we've said for so long that back when HCI first started, it was some of the storage administrators might bristle because you were taking things away from them. It was like, no, we're going to free you up to do other things that as Monica said, deliver more business value not mapping LUNs and doing that. How about from the DBA standpoint? What are some of those repetitive, undifferentiated heavy lifting that we're going to take away from them so that they can focus on the business value. >> Yep. Thank you Stu. So think about this. We all do copy paste operations in laptops. Something of that sort happens in data center at a much larger scale. Meaning that the same kind of copy paste operation happens to databases and petabytes and terabytes of scale. Hundreds of petabytes. It has become the most dreaded complex, long running error prone operation. Why should it be that way? Why should the DBS spend all this mundane tasks and then get busy for every cloning operation? It's a two day job for me, every backup job. It's like a hobby job for provisioning takes like three days. We can take this undifferentiated heavy lifting by this and then let the DBS focus on designing the cloud for them. Looking for the database tuning, design data modeling, ML aspects of the data kind of stuff. So we are freeing up the database Ops people, in a way that they can design the database cloud, and make sure that they are energy focused on high valid things and more towards the business center kind of stuff. >> Yeah. And you know automation is really important. You were talking about is automating mundane grunt work. Like IT spends 80% of its time in maintaining systems. So then where is the time for innovation. So if we can automate stuff that's repetitive, stuff that the machine can do, the software can do, why not? And I think that's what our database as a service often does. And I would add this, the big thing our database as a service does really is provide IT organizations and DV organizations a way to manage heterogeneous databases too. It's not like, here's my environment for Postgres. Here's my environment for my SQL. Here's my environment for Oracle. Here's my environment for SQL server. Now with a single offering, a single tool you can manage your heterogeneous environment across different clouds. On premises cloud, or in a public cloud environment. So I think that's the beauty we are talking about with Nutanix's Era. Is a truly, truly gives organizations that single environment to manage heterogeneous databases, apply the same automation and the ease of management across all these different environments. >> Yeah. I'll just add one comment to that. A true managed PaaS obviously customers in like a single shop go to public cloud, just click through and then they get the database and point. And then if someone is managing the database for them. But if you look at the enterprise data centers, they need to bring that enterprise GalNets and structure to these databases. It's not like anyone can do anything to any or these databases. So we are kind of getting the best of both, the needed enterprise GalNets by these enterprise people at the same time bringing the convenience for the application teams and developers they want to consume these databases like utility. So bringing the cloud experience, bringing the enterprise GalNets. At same time, I'm super confident we can cut down the cost. So that is what Nutanix Era is all about across all the clouds, including the enterprise cloud. >> Well, Bala being simpler and being less expensive are one of the original promises of the cloud that don't necessarily always come out there. So, that's super important. One of the other things, you talk about these hybrid environments. It's not just studied, in the public cloud want to understand these environments, if I'm in the public cloud, can I still leverage some of the services that are in the public cloud? So, if I want to run some analytics, if I want to use some of the phenomenal services that are coming out every day. Is that something that can be done in this environment? >> Yeah, beautiful. Thank you Stu. So we are seeing customers who two categories. There is a public cloud customer, completely born in public cloud cloud, native services. They realize that for every database that maintaining five or seven different copies and the management of these copies is prohibited just because every copy is a faulty copy in the public cloud. Meaning you take a backup snapshot and restore it. Your meter like New York taxi, it starts with running for your EBS   and that you are looking at it kind of stuff. So they can leverage Nutanix clusters and then have a highly efficient cloning capability so that they can cut down some of these costs for these secondary environments that I talk about. What we call is copy data management, that's one kind of use case. The other kind of customers that we are seeing who's cloud is a phenomenon. There's no way that people have to move to cloud. That's the something at a C level mandate that happens. These customers are enjoying their database experience on our enterprise cloud. But when they try to go to these big hyperscalers, they are seeing the disconnect that they're not able to enjoy some of the things that they are seeing on the enterprise cloud with us. So this transition, they are talking to us. Can you get this kind of functionality with Nutanix platform onto some of these big hyperscalers? So there are kind of customers moving both sides, some customers that are public cloud they're time to enjoy our facilities other than copy data management and Nutanix. Customers that are on-prem but they have a mandate to good public cloud ,with our hybrid cloud strategy. They get to enjoy the same kind of convenience that they are seeing it on enterprise and bringing the same kind of governance that they used to do it. so that maybe see customers. Yeah. >> Yeah. Monica, I want to go back to something you talked about customers dealing with that heterogeneous environment that they have reminds me of a lot of the themes that we talked about at nutanix.next because customers have they have multiple clouds they're using, requires different skillsets, different tooling. It's that simplicity layer that Nutanix has been working to deliver since day one. What are you from your customers? How are they doing with this? And especially in the database world. What are some of those challenges that they're really facing that we're looking to help solve with the solution today. >> Yeah. I mean, if you think about it, what customers at least in our experience, what they want or what they're looking for is this modern cloud platform that can really work across multiple cloud environments. Cause people don't want to change running, let's say an Oracle database you're on-prem on a certain stack and then using a whole different stack to run Oracle database in the cloud. What they want is the same exact foundation. So be so they can be, for sure have the right performance. Availability, reliability, the applications don't have to be rewritten on top of Oracle database. They want to preserve all of that, but they want the flexibility to be able to run that cloud platform wherever they choose to. So that's one. So that's choosing the right and modernizing and choosing the right cloud platform is definitely very important to our customers, but you nailed it on the head Stu. It's been about how do you manage it? How do you operate it on a daily basis? And that's where our customers are struggling with multiple types of tools out there, custom tool for every single environment. And that's what they don't want. They want to be able to manage, simply across multiple environments using the same tools and skillsets. And again, and I'm going to beat the same drum, but that's when Nutanix shines. That's a design principle is. It's the exact same technology foundation that you provide to customers to run any applications. In this case it happens to be databases. Exact same foundation you can use to run databases on-prem in the cloud. And then on top of that using Era boom! Simple management, simple operations, simple provisioning simple copy data management, simple patching, all of that becomes easy using just a single framework to manage and operate. And I will tell you this, when we talk to customers, what is it that DBS and database teams are struggling with? They're struggling with SLS and performance on scalability, that's one, number two they're struggling with keeping it up and running and fulfilling the demands of the stakeholders because they cannot keep up with how many databases they need to keep provisioning and patching and updating. So at Nutanix now we are actually solving both those problems with the platform. We are solving the problem of a very specific SLA that we can deliver in any cloud. And with Era, you're solving the issue of that operational complexity. We're making it really easy. So again, IT stakeholders DBS can fulfill the demands of the business stakeholders and really help them monetize the data. >> Yeah. I'll just add on with one concrete examples too. Like we have a big financial customer, they want to run Postgres. They are looking at the public cloud. Can we do a manage services kind of stuff, but you look at this, that the cost difference between a Postgres and your company infrastructure versus managed services almost like $3X to $4X dollars. Now, with Nutanix platform and Era, we were able to show that they can do at much reduced cost, manage their best service experience including their DBA cost are including the cloud administration cost. Like we added the infrastructure picture. We added the people who are going to manage the cloud, internal cloud and then intern experience being, plus plus of what they can see to public cloud. That's what makes the big difference. And this is what data sovereignty, data control, compliance and infrastructure governance, all these things coupled with cloud experiences, what customers really see the value of Era and the enterprise cloud and with an extension to the public cloud, with our hybrid cloud strategy. if they want to move this workload to public cloud they can do it. So, today with AWS clusters and tomorrow with our Azure clusters. So that gives them that kind of insurance not getting locked in by a big hyperscaler, but at same time enjoy the cloud experience. That's what big customers are looking for. >> Alright Bala, all the things you laid out here, what's the availability of Era rotically dot two? >> Era rotically dot two is actually available today. The customers can enjoy download the bits. We already have bunches of beta customers who are trying it out with the recall big telco companies are financial companies, and even big companies that manage big pensions kind of stuff. Let's talk about that kind of stuff. People are looking to us. In fact, there are customers who are looking for, when is this available for Azure cluster so that we can move some of our workloads to and manage the databases in Azure classes. So it is available and I'm looking forward to great feedback from our customers. And I'm hoping that it will solve some of their major critical problems. And in the process they get the best of Nutanix. >> Monica, last question I have for you. This doesn't seem like it's necessarily the same traditional infrastructure go to market for a solution like this. If I think back to, people think of HCI it was like, Oh! well, it was kind of a new box. We know Nutanix is a software company. More of what you do today is subscription based. So, maybe if you could talk a little bit to just how Nutanix goes to market with a solution like this. >> Yeah. And you know what, maybe people don't realize it but I'm hoping a lot of people do that. Nutanix is not just an infrastructure company anymore. In the last many years we've developed a full cloud platform in not only do we offer the infrastructure services with hyperconverged infrastructure which is now really the foundation. It's the hybrid cloud infrastructure. As you know, Stu, we talked to you a month ago and we talked about the evolution of XCI to really becoming the hybrid cloud infrastructure. But in addition to that, we also offer other data center services on storage DR Networking. We also offer DevOps services with application provisioning automation, application orchestration and then of course, database services that we talking about today and we offer desktop services. So Nutanix has really evolved in the last few years to a complete cloud platform really focusing on the application and workloads that run on top of the infrastructure stack. So not just the infrastructure layer but how can we be the best platform to run your databases? Your end is the computing workloads, your analytics applications your enterprise applications, cloud native applications. So that's what this is. And databases is one of our most successful workloads that's that runs a Nutanix very well because of the way the infrastructure software is architected. Because it's really great to scale high performance because again our superior architecture. And now with Era, it's a tool, it's all in one. Now it's also about really simplifying the management of databases and delivering them speedily and with agility to drive innovation in the organizations. >> Yep. Thank you Monica. Thank you. I I'll just add a couple of lines of comments into that. DTM for databases as erotically dots two, is going to be a challenge. And historically we are seen as an infrastructure company but the beauty of databases is so and to send to the infrastructure, the storage. So the language slightly becomes easy. And in fact, this holistic way of looking at solving the problem at the solution level rather than infrastructure helps us to go to a different kind of buyer, different kinds of decision maker, and we are learning. And I can tell you confidently the kind of progress that we have seen for in one enough year, the kind of customers that we are winning. And we are proving that we can bring a big difference to them. Though there is a challenge of DTM speaking the language of database, but the sheer nature of cloud platform the way they are a hundred hyperscale work. That's the kind of language that we take. You can run your solution. And here is how you can cut down your database backup time from hours to less than minute. Here's how you can cut down your patching from 16 hours to less than one hour. It is how you can cut down your provisioning time from multiple weeks to let them like matter of minutes. That holistic way of approaching it coupled with the power of the platform, really making the big difference for us. And I usually tell every time I meet, can you give us an opportunity to cut down your database cost, the PC vote, total cost of operations by close to 50%? That gets them excited that lets then move lean in and say, how do you plan to do it? And then we go about how do we do it? And we do a deep dive and PC people and all of it. So I'm excited. I think this is going to be a big play for Nutanix. We're going to make big difference. >> Absolutely well, Bala, congratulations to the team. Monica, both of you thank you so much for joining, really excited for all the announcements. >> Thank you so much. >> Thank you >> Stay with us. We're going to dig in a little bit more with one more interview for this product launch of the New Era and Database Management from Nutanix. I'm Stu Minimam as always, thank you for watching theCUBE. (cool music)

>>Hi, everyone. Good afternoon. Thank you for joining this session. I feel honored to be invited to speak here today. And I also appreciate entity research Summit members for organ organizing and giving this great opportunity. Please let me give a quick introduction. First, I'm a Takashi from Marvin American population, and I'm leading technology scouting and global ation with digital health companies such as Business Alliance and Strategically Investment in North America. And since we started to focus on this space in 2016 our team is growing. And in order to bring more new technologies and services to Japan market Thesis year, we founded the new service theories for digital health business, especially, uh, in medical diagnosis space in Japan. And today I would like to talk how health care has been transformed for my micro perspective, and I hope you enjoy reasoning it. So what's happened since the US identify the first case in the middle of January, As everyone knows, unfortunately, is the damaged by this pandemic was unequal amongst the people in us. It had more determined tal impact on those who are socially and economically vulnerable because of the long, long lasting structural program off the U. S. Society and the Light Charity about daily case rating elevator country shows. Even in the community, the infection rate off the low income were 4.5 times higher than, uh, those of the high income and due to czar straight off the Corvette, about 14 million people are unemployed. The unique point off the U. S. Is that more than 60% of insurance is tied with employment, so losing a job can mean losing access to health care. And the point point here is that the Corvette did not create healthcare disparity but, uh nearly highlighted the underlying program and necessity off affordable care for all. And when the country had a need to increase the testing capacity and geographic out, treat the pharmacies and retails joined forces with existing stakeholders more than 90% off the U. S Corporation live within five miles off a community pharmacy such as CVS and Walgreen, so they can technically provide the test to everyone in all the community. And they also have a huge workforce memory pharmacist who are eligible to perform the testing scale, and this very made their potential in community based health care. Stand out and about your health has provided on alternative way for people to access to health care. At affordable applies under the unusual setting where social distancing, which required required mhm and people have a fear of infection. So they are afraid to take a public transportacion and visit >>the doctor the same thing supplied to doctor and the chart. Here is a number of total visit cranes by service type after stay at home order was issued across the U. S. By Ali April patient physical visits to doctor's offices or clinics declined by ALAN 70%. On the other hand, that share, or telehealth, accounted for 25% of the total total. Doctor's visit in April, while many states studied to re opening face to face visit is gradually recovering. And overall Tele Health Service did not offset the crime. Physician Physical doctor's visit and telehealth John never fully replace in person care. However, Telehealth has established a new way to provide affordable care, especially to vulnerable people, and I don't explain each player's today. But as an example, the chart shows the significant growth of the tell a dog who is one of the largest badger care and tell his provider, I believe there are three factors off paradox. Success under the pandemic. First, obviously tell Doc could reach >>the job between those patients and doctors. Majority of the patients who needed to see doctors who are those who have underlying health conditions and are high risk for Kelowna, Bilis and Secondary. They showed their business model is highly scalable. In the first quarter of this year, they moved quickly to expand their physical physicians network to increase their capacity and catch up growing demand. To some extent, they also contributed to create flexible job for the doctors who suffered from Lydia's appointment and surgery. They utilized. There are legalism to maximize the efficiency for doctors and doing so, uh, they have university maintained high quality care at affordable applies Yeah, and at the same time, the government recognize the body of about your care and de regulated traditional rules to sum up she m s temporary automated to pay a wide range of tell Her services, including hospital visit and HHS temporarily waived hip hop minorities for telehealth cases and they're changed allowed provider to use communication tools such as facetime and the messenger. During their appointment on August start, the government issued a new executive order to expand tell his services beyond the pandemic. So the government is also moving to support about your health care. So it was a quick review of the health care challenges and somewhat advancement in the pandemic. But as you understand, since those challenges are not caused by the pandemic, problems will stay remain and events off this year will continuously catalyze the transformation. So how was his cherished reshaped and where will we go? The topic from here can be also applied to Japan market. Okay, I believe democratization and decentralization healthcare more important than ever. So what does A. The traditional healthcare was defined in a framework over patient and a doctor. But in the new normal, the range of beneficiaries will be expanded from patient to all citizens, including the country uninsured people. Thanks to the technology evolution, as you can download health management off for free on iTunes stores while the range of the digital health services unable everyone to participate in new health system system. And in this slide, I put three essential element to fully realize democratization and decentralization off health care, health, literacy, data sharing and security, privacy and safety in addition, taken. In addition, technology is put at the bottom as a foundation off three point first. Health stimulus is obviously important because if people don't understand how the system works, what options are available to them or what are the pros and cons of each options? They can not navigate themselves and utilize the service. It can even cause a different disparity. Issue and secondary data must be technically flee to transfer. While it keeps interoperability ease. More options are becoming available to patient. But if data cannot be shared among stakeholders, including patient hospitals in strollers and budget your providers, patient data will be fragmented and people cannot yet continue to care which they benefited under current centralized care system. And this is most challenging part. But the last one is that the security aspect more players will involving decentralized health care outside of conventional healthcare system. So obviously, both the number of healthcare channels and our frequency of data sharing will increase more. It's create ah, higher data about no beauty, and so, under the new health care framework, we needed to ensure patient privacy and safety and also re examine a Scott write lines for sharing patient data and off course. Corbett Wasa Stone Catalyst off this you saved. But what folly. Our drivers in Macro and Micro Perspective from Mark Lowe. The challenges in healthcare system have been widely recognized for decades, and now he's a big pain. The pandemic reminded us all the key values. Misha, our current pain point as I left the church shores. Those are increasing the population, health sustainability for doctors and other social system and value based care for better and more affordable care. And all the elements are co dependent on each other. The light chart explained that providing preventive care and Alan Dimension is the best way threes to meet the key values here. Similarly, the direction of community based care and about your care is in line with thes three values, and they are acting to maximize the number of beneficiaries form. A micro uh, initiative by nonconventional players is a big driver, and both CBS and Walmart are being actively engaged in healthcare healthcare businesses for many years. And CBS has the largest walking clinic called MinuteClinic, Ottawa 1100 locations, and Walmart also has 20 primary clinics. I didn't talk to them. But the most interesting things off their recent innovation, I believe, is that they are adjusted and expanded their focus, from primary care to community health Center to out less to every every customer's needs. And CBS Front to provide affordable preventive health and chronic health monitoring services at 1500 CBS Health have, which they are now setting up and along a similar line would Mark is deploying Walmart Health Center, where, utilizing tech driven solutions, they provide affordable one stop service for core healthcare. They got less, uh, insurance status. For example, more than 40% of the people in U. S visit will not every big, so liberating the huge customer base and physical locations. Both companies being reading decentralization off health care and consumer device company such as Apple and Fitbit also have helped in transform forming healthcare in two ways. First, they are growing the boundaries between traditional healthcare and consumer product after their long development airport available, getting healthcare device and secondary. They acted as the best healthcare educators to consumers and increase people's healthcare awareness because they're taking an important role in the enhancement, health, literacy and healthcare democratization. And based on the story so far, I'd like to touch to business concept which can be applied to both Japan and the US and one expected change. It will be the emergence of data integration plot home while the telehealth. While the healthcare data data volume has increased 15 times for the last seven years and will continuously increase, we have a chance to improve the health care by harnessing the data. So meaning the new system, which unify the each patient data from multiple data sources and create 360 degrees longitudinal view each individual and then it sensitized the unified data to gain additional insights seen from structure data and unable to provide personal lives care. Finally, it's aggregate each individual data and reanalyzed to provide inside for population health. This is one specific model I envision. And, uh, health care will be provided slew online or offline and at the hospital or detail store. In order to amplify the impact of health care. The law off the mediator between health care between hospital and citizen will become more important. They can be a pharmacy toe health stand out about your care providers. They provide wide range of fundamental care and medication instruction and management. They also help individuals to manage their health care data. I will not explain the details today, but Japan has similar challenges in health care, such as increasing healthcare expenditure and lack of doctors and care givers. For example, they people in Japan have physical physician visit more than 20 times a year on average, while those in the U. S. On >>the do full times it sounds a joke, but people say because the artery are healthy, say visit hospitals to see friends. So we need to utilize thes mediators to reduce cost while they maintained social place for citizens in Japan, the government has promoted, uh, usual family, pharmacist and primary doctors and views the community based medical system as a policy. There was division of dispensing fees in Japan this year to ship the core load or pharmacist to the new role as a health management service providers. And so >>I believe we will see the change in those spaces not only in the U. S, but also in Japan, and we went through so unprecedented times. But I believe it's been resulting accelerating our healthcare transformation and creating a new business innovation. And this brings me to the end of my presentation. Thank you for your attention and hope you could find something somehow useful for your business. And if you have any questions >>or comments, please for you feel free to contact me.

>>Hi, everyone. Good afternoon. Thank you for joining this session. I feel honored to be invited to speak here today. And I also appreciate entity research Summit members for organ organizing and giving this great opportunity. Please let me give a quick introduction. First, I'm a Takashi from Marvin American population, and I'm leading technology scouting and global ation with digital health companies such as Business Alliance and Strategically Investment in North America. And since we started to focus on this space in 2016 our team is growing. And in order to bring more new technologies and services to Japan market Thesis year, we founded the new service theories for digital health business, especially, uh, in medical diagnosis space in Japan. And today I would like to talk how health care has been transformed for my micro perspective, and I hope you enjoy reasoning it. So what's happened since the US identify the first case in the middle of January, As everyone knows, unfortunately, is the damaged by this pandemic was unequal amongst the people in us. It had more determined tal impact on those who are socially and economically vulnerable because of the long, long lasting structural program off the U. S. Society and the Light Charity about daily case rating elevator country shows. Even in the community, the infection rate off the low income were 4.5 times higher than, uh, those of the high income and due to czar straight off the Corvette, about 14 million people are unemployed. The unique point off the U. S. Is that more than 60% of insurance is tied with employment, so losing a job can mean losing access to health care. And the point point here is that the Corvette did not create healthcare disparity but, uh nearly highlighted the underlying program and necessity off affordable care for all. And when the country had a need to increase the testing capacity and geographic out, treat the pharmacies and retails joined forces with existing stakeholders more than 90% off the U. S Corporation live within five miles off a community pharmacy such as CVS and Walgreen, so they can technically provide the test to everyone in all the community. And they also have a huge workforce memory pharmacist who are eligible to perform the testing scale, and this very made their potential in community based health care. Stand out and about your health has provided on alternative way for people to access to health care. At affordable applies under the unusual setting where social distancing, which required required mhm and people have a fear of infection. So they are afraid to take a public transportacion and visit >>the doctor the same thing supplied to doctor and the chart. Here is a number of total visit cranes by service type after stay at home order was issued across the U. S. By Ali April patient physical visits to doctor's offices or clinics declined by ALAN 70%. On the other hand, that share, or telehealth, accounted for 25% of the total total. Doctor's >>visit in April, while many states studied to re opening face to face visit is gradually recovering. And overall Tele Health Service did not offset the crime. Physician Physical doctor's visit and telehealth John never fully replace in person care. However, Telehealth has established a new way to provide affordable care, especially to vulnerable people, and I don't explain each player's today. But as an example, the chart shows the significant growth of >>the tell a dog who is one of the largest badger care and tell his provider, I believe there are three factors off paradox. Success under the pandemic. First, obviously tell Doc could reach >>the job between those patients and doctors. Majority of the patients who needed to see doctors who are those who have underlying health conditions and are high risk for Kelowna, Bilis and Secondary. They showed their business model is highly scalable. In the first quarter of this year, they moved quickly to expand their physical physicians network to increase their capacity and catch up growing demand. To some extent, they also contributed to create flexible job for the doctors who suffered from Lydia's appointment and surgery. They utilized. There are legalism to maximize the efficiency for doctors and doing so, uh, they have university maintained high quality care at affordable applies Yeah, and at the same time, the government recognize the body of about your care and de regulated traditional rules to sum up she m s temporary automated to pay a wide range of tell Her services, including hospital visit and HHS temporarily waived hip hop minorities for telehealth cases and they're changed allowed provider to use communication tools such as facetime and the messenger. During their appointment on August start, the government issued a new executive order to expand tell his services beyond the pandemic. So the government is also moving to support about your health care. So it was a quick review of the health care challenges and somewhat advancement in the pandemic. But as you understand, since those challenges are not caused by the pandemic, problems will stay remain and events off this year will continuously catalyze the transformation. So how was his cherished reshaped and where will we go? The topic from here can be also applied to Japan market. Okay, I believe democratization and decentralization healthcare more important than ever. So what does A. The traditional healthcare was defined in a framework over patient and a doctor. But in the new normal, the range of beneficiaries will be expanded from patient to all citizens, including the country uninsured people. Thanks to the technology evolution, as you can download health management off for free on iTunes stores while the range of the digital health services unable everyone to participate in new health system system. And in this slide, I put three essential element to fully realize democratization and decentralization off health care, health, literacy, data sharing and security, privacy and safety in addition, taken. In addition, technology is put at the bottom as a foundation off three point first. Health stimulus is obviously important because if people don't understand how the system works, what options are available to them or what are the pros and cons of each options? They can not navigate themselves and utilize the service. It can even cause a different disparity. Issue and secondary data must be technically flee to transfer. While it keeps interoperability ease. More options are becoming available to patient. But if data cannot be shared among stakeholders, including patient hospitals in strollers and budget your providers, patient data will be fragmented and people cannot yet continue to care which they benefited under current centralized care system. And this is most challenging part. But the last one is that the security aspect more players will involving decentralized health care outside of conventional healthcare system. So obviously, both the number of healthcare channels and our frequency of data sharing will increase more. It's create ah, higher data about no beauty, and so, under the new health care framework, we needed to ensure patient privacy and safety and also re examine a Scott write lines for sharing patient data and off course. Corbett Wasa Stone Catalyst off this you saved. But what folly. Our drivers in Macro and Micro Perspective from Mark Lowe. The challenges in healthcare system have been widely recognized for decades, and now he's a big pain. The pandemic reminded us all the key values. Misha, our current pain point as I left the church shores. Those are increasing the population, health sustainability for doctors and other social system and value based care for better and more affordable care. And all the elements are co dependent on each other. The light chart explained that providing preventive care and Alan Dimension is the best way threes to meet the key values here. Similarly, the direction of community based care and about your care is in line with thes three values, and they are acting to maximize the number of beneficiaries form. A micro uh, initiative by nonconventional players is a big driver, and both CBS and Walmart are being actively engaged in healthcare healthcare businesses for many years. And CBS has the largest walking clinic called MinuteClinic, Ottawa 1100 locations, and Walmart also has 20 primary clinics. I didn't talk to them. But the most interesting things off their recent innovation, I believe, is that they are adjusted and expanded their focus, from primary care to community health Center to out less to every every customer's needs. And CBS Front to provide affordable preventive health and chronic health monitoring services at 1500 CBS Health have, which they are now setting up and along a similar line would Mark is deploying Walmart Health Center, where, utilizing tech driven solutions, they provide affordable one stop service for core healthcare. They got less, uh, insurance status. For example, more than 40% of the people in U. S visit will not every big, so liberating the huge customer base and physical locations. Both companies being reading decentralization off health care and consumer device company such as Apple and Fitbit also have helped in transform forming healthcare in two ways. First, they are growing the boundaries between traditional healthcare and consumer product after their long development airport available, getting healthcare device and secondary. They acted as the best healthcare educators to consumers and increase people's healthcare awareness because they're taking an important role in the enhancement, health, literacy and healthcare democratization. And based on the story so far, I'd like to touch to business concept which can be applied to both Japan and the US and one expected change. It will be the emergence of data integration plot home while the telehealth. While the healthcare data data volume has increased 15 times for the last seven years and will continuously increase, we have a chance to improve the health care by harnessing the data. So meaning the new system, which unify the each patient data from multiple data sources and create 360 degrees longitudinal view each individual and then it sensitized the unified data to gain additional insights seen from structure data and unable to provide personal lives care. Finally, it's aggregate each individual data and reanalyzed to provide inside for population health. This is one specific model I envision. And, uh, health care will be provided slew online or offline and at the hospital or detail store. In order to amplify the impact of health care. The law off the mediator between health care between hospital and citizen will become more important. They can be a pharmacy toe health stand out about your care providers. They provide wide range of fundamental care and medication instruction and management. They also help individuals to manage their health care data. I will not explain the details today, but Japan has similar challenges in health care, such as increasing healthcare expenditure and lack of doctors and care givers. For example, they people in Japan have physical physician visit more than 20 times a year on average, while those in the U. S. On the do full times it sounds a joke, but people say because the artery are healthy, say visit hospitals to see friends. So we need to utilize thes mediators to reduce cost while they maintained social place for citizens in Japan, the government has promoted, uh, usual family, pharmacist and primary doctors and views the community based medical system as a policy. There was division of dispensing fees in Japan this year to ship the core load or pharmacist to the new role as a health management service providers. And so I believe we will see the change in those spaces not only in the U. S, but also in Japan, and we went through so unprecedented times. But I believe it's been resulting accelerating our healthcare transformation and creating a new business innovation. And this brings me to the end of my presentation. Thank you for your attention and hope you could find something somehow useful for your business. And if you have any questions >>or comments, please for you feel free to contact me. Thank you.

from the cube studios in Palo Alto in Boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world this is a cube conversation we've been reporting that the Kovan pandemic has created a bifurcated IT spending outlook legacy on print on-prem infrastructure in traditional software licensing models they're giving away two approaches that enable more flexibility in business agility automation initiatives that reduce human labor labor that's not value add has really been gaining traction for the past 18 months the pandemic has only accelerated to focus on such efforts and robotic process automation or RPA along with machine intelligence have been the beneficiaries relative to other segments of the IT stack welcome to this week's wiki Vaughn cube insights powered by ETR my name is Dave Volante and in this breaking analysis we're gonna update you on the latest demand picture for the red-hot RP a sector will also focus on two main areas today first we're gonna review the basics of the RP a space for those that may not be as familiar with the market next we'll share with you the spending data and outlook in the RT ARPA space from ETR and we're really dig into the kovat impact on this market segment and take a look at the competitive outlook we're gonna pay particular attention to the leaders in this space and then we're gonna wrap up so let me start with kind of the RPI basics if you're not familiar with our PA here's what you really need to know happy hour PA gained traction by taking software robots and pointing them at existing applications to mimic human behavior and automate repeatable and well understood processes keyboard behavior that is now a challenge with early RPA implementations is that most customers chose to point these bots at legacy backend office systems now that the open emails and fill out forms and the like so that's great because it digitizes processes around legacy systems awesome ROI but the problem is that these bots will they interact with a user interface of that application and many of these apps they really don't have an API so any change in data or the interface breaks the automation down now more recently automations are interacting to apps through api's that makes them less brittle but of course you know the quality of api's as you well know will vary so enter your machine intelligence into the equation there's been a lot of discussion around the intersection of our PA and AI and that's allowed organizations to automate more processes that do so in a way that takes an augmentation approach using things like natural language processing or speech recognition and machine learning to iterate and improve automations and you know this trend holds a lot of promise and is a lot of talk about it in the marketplace particularly in the form of really trying to understand which processes to automate and where the best ROI can be achieved for organization but it's important to note it's really still early days with this AI intersection nonetheless investors you know they're ahead of the game they've they've poured money into this space as we've been reporting now for you know well over a year or two uipath an automation anywhere have raised close to two billion dollars and have been growing very very rapidly we're gonna talk more about that existing players like blue prism they've actually benefited from the automation tailwind and other you know process business process players take for example like Pegasus Toombs I mean they started in the early 80s they've added our PA to their platform as have many others by the way including Microsoft who has barely been trying to crack into this market for a while in fact Microsoft just bought a small company called soft emotive and to really try to shore up its RP a game but you know just a quick aside in our view Microsoft is their well behind the leaders it's gonna take years for them to get where the leaders are today yeah but it's Microsoft so you don't want to ignore them now the big buzzword here is hyper automation evidently it's a torrent a coin term coined by Gartner and uipath has picked up on this in a big way and so is automation anywhere now those both those companies are in hyper growth so it plays more established companies for example pega yeah they look at the term differently you know of course their vision is Rp a is a small portion of their their their vision these established firms they want to incorporate their business process automation z' that have been built over decades into a systems view of the organization using existing platforms the upstarts of course they want to build from new platforms what's really happening in the marketplace and like in many situations is this emergence of a hybrid you know quasi-equilibrium here we saw this in mainframes who certainly you know saw it in middleware enterprise data warehouses and we've seen it in the cloud you know where most companies don't just throw away the investments that they've made in legacy systems now they're stable they're operationalized and rather what they do is they overlay the more modern technologies and they kind of create an abstraction layer of their business that incorporates the old and the new but the growth is much much higher in the new as we know it and that leads me to the TAM the total available market let's look at the RPM you know we think the TAM expansion opportunity is pretty substantial we put this chart together awhile back that really underscores that the progression of our PA from you know simple BOTS automating back-office functions to really infusing automations in virtually all applications you know if you expand the definition beyond our PA software into the broader automation opportunities the other thing about it this this could be a much much larger than depicted here maybe well over a hundred billion dollar Tam as a I powered automation becomes fundamental to every organization in their operating model anyway it's a big opportunity and the data suggests that it's growing rapidly so let's turn to the data let's look at the spending and bring ETR into the equation so which technologies are showing new adoptions in tech on balance the tech sector has done pretty well despite this pandemic at the time of this video the Nasdaq Composite is up about a point and a half year to date and as we know from previous surveys that heading into 2020 there was a pullback in a narrowing of new technology adoptions as organizations began to operationalize their digital initiatives and place bets this chart shows new adoptions across three survey dates the gray is April last year the blue is January which is pre-pandemic really and the survey of more than 1,200 IT buyers is really the latest one which is the April so this survey took place at the height of the US lockdown and you can see look at all PA it's got 22% new adoptions what does that mean it means that 22% of the customers in the survey we're planning our PA spend there that are planning for our PA spend are planning new adoptions now that's a figure that says hi as machine learning and artificial intelligence and of course as we said these two technologies are increasingly playing a role together so our PA adoptions more than containers more than videoconferencing which has had this tailwind from work from home and more than cloud more than mobile device management so it's really one of the hottest sectors in terms of new adoptions now let's look at some of the players in our PA and try to really better understand their positions here's a chart that uses the two primary met work net metrics that we've been sharing over the past year net score or spending momentum is on the y-axis and market share which is a measure of pervasiveness in the data set is on the x-axis the chart plots are PA players in the et our data set and you can see uipath in automate anyway our the to market leaders they show both spending momentum and market awareness then you see blue prism and peg is in there and the rest of the pack and I'll say this about pegye systems I recently spoke to their CEO Alan trifler he's an amazing self-made billionaire he's got a great business you know peg that really doesn't see you know itself anyway as an RPA play and I don't either our PA is really a small part of their story but they're in the data set and certainly automation related so it's what's showing but it's a bit of an oranges and tangerines comparison now notice in the upper right of this chart you can see that the net scores are in the green shade and there's a little bit of red in there but remember net score is a simple metric sort of like Net Promoter Score in PS it subtracts customer spending less from those spending more and that's the difference and you can see very very strong net scores for both uipath in automation anywhere and I'm gonna discuss that more in a moment but there's lots of green in the chart and even pega or as I said it's really not an RPA specialist they've got a solid net score now let's look at a time series of this net score in the spending momentum what we do here is this chart takes the three leaders uipath automation anywhere and blue prism and it plots their net scores over time goes all the way back to the January 18 survey now let me make a couple of points here uipath in automation anywhere 70% plus net scores is very impressive and amongst the highest in the data set even though you see some of the Lawson momentum in the UI path line and the convergence with automation anywhere they're both very very strong and you can see in the upper right you can see the shared end which is an indicator of the presence of the company in the data set how many response is out of the 1200 plus so you might say well wait a minute you I passed the I had they had layoffs last fall and automation anywhere they more recently just recently had layoffs how can they show such strength well I make a few points first fast-growing companies like this that have raised you know nearly a billion dollars each they've got investors to serve and they're going to course-correct when they feel like there's some slack in the system yet to me it's not a sign of fundamental trouble second both of these companies are going to continue to invest heavily on research and development uipath has 60 openings on its website mostly in engineering automation anywhere they only have nine openings but I would expect both companies to up their engineering hiring especially given the Microsoft acquisition today third remember this is not an indicator of the amount of money spent in absolute dollars rather it looks at spending momentum of the doll in dollar terms as well if you were to cut the data by larger companies let's say the Fortune 1000 where the average contract values are higher you'd see that you I pass a net score jumps to 77% automation anywhere would drop into the 60s and blue prison would stay about the same where it is today today so let's look for example in the global 2000 so we'll expand that notion of a fortune 1000 let's go to the global 2000 where there's more of an end slice and you can see the picture changes from the overall data sample this chart shows the net scores in the global 2000 where the ends are more than 25 responses across all the three surveys gray as last April blue was January yellow is April 2020 and you can see the year-on-year decline and the modest step down during the the Colvin lockdown which again surveyed in April but still very elevated net scores for uipath and automation anywhere and respectable for the other so the point is Co vyd has not really crushed the RPA market I mean if anything is witnessed by the new adoptions it's maybe it's certainly better off than most IT sectors now let's dig into the net scores of the two leaders a little bit more uipath and automation anywhere remember net scores of very important metric and I want to spend the moment explaining how we use it you see this wheel chart this red green gray it really shows how the net score method is applied now we've taken the UI path example from the April survey net score works by asking buyers relative to last year are you adopting new that's the 28% are you increasing spend by 6 percent or greater that's 51 percent are you expecting flat spending that's 15 percent or a decrease in spend of 6 percent or more or finally are you replacing the vendor checking them out so look at this you can see for UI path added up 79 percent of respondents expect to increase spending in 2020 relative to 2019 and again remember this survey was taken at the height of the kovat lockdown let me show you the data for automation anywhere same exact methodology 72 percent of automation anywhere a customer's plan to spend more only 1 percent plan to spend less with zero replacements so very strong fundamentals as it relates to spending momentum for both UI path and automation anywhere now how is presents or what we call market share in the data set changing on a year-on-year basis well this is the last data point that I want to show and it relates to that metric of market share which again is the measure of pervasiveness it's calculated by dividing the number of mentions of a vendor in a sector by the total mentions of that sector in this case RP a and this chart shows the year-on-year change in customer growth comparing market share from the April 20 survey with that from the April 19 data and you can see the yellow line at 11% is the sector average uipath has the fastest growth automation anywhere is growing faster than the market average and blue prism is below the average now this looks back to last year and it'll be interesting to see how this picture changes with the next survey based on what we're seeing with the next net scores which is a forward-looking metric all right let's wrap so we're seeing that the bifurcated market is high that the automation trend generally is real and that the RP a drill down specifically shows us an example in action we think that kovat 919 not hit these numbers would actually be higher by maybe as much as 10% but in the near near to mid term we would expect a pretty fast return to normal patterns of demand if I put normal and air quotes for our PA in fact you know we don't expect a real v-shaped recovery across the board but our PA is you know one of those areas where we actually may see such a rebound the pandemic really underscores the need to accelerate digital transformations our PA we think is going to be a central player in that movie along with AI the cloud all right we have to leave it there for now so remember these episodes they're all available as podcasts just all you got to do is search breaking analysis podcasts please subscribe to the series would appreciate that and check out ETR dot plus for all the data I also publish a full report every week on wiki bound comm tons of data there as well and Silicon angle comm has all the news and I published there alright this is Dave Volante thanks for watching this episode of the cube insights powered by ETR we'll see you next time [Music]

>> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a Cube Conversation. >> Analysis from company earnings reports and costumer survey data, continues to show that Microsoft Azure and GCP are closing the gap on AWS's cloud dominance. Now, while reporting definitions of the cloud remain fuzzy, it's very clear that clouds steady march into the stronghold of on-premises computing continues. The global Coronavirus pandemic has only strengthen the cloud's position in the overall market place. Now, as you might recall, we reported last week, the story of the haves and the have nots, and that's playing out in several sectors. And in this breaking analysis we're going to take a closer look at the big three cloud players, and we'll do a brief investigation of AWS specifically in a short drill down. Welcome everyone, to theCUBE insights powered by ETR. Today we're going to try to really accomplish three things. First, we want to quantify how the cloud is impacting the on-prem business. As we enter this decade, let's take a snapshot of some of the vendors that are well positioned, and maybe some of those that are facing greater head winds. The second thing we want to do, is we want to update you on the latest market share data for the big three cloud players. And then finally, I want to dig into the business of AWS in a little bit more depth to see where they're seeing the most strengthen, and where, perhaps, maybe there are some cracks in their substantial armor. Now, let's look at the IT landscape where we are in 2020. The first data point that we want to share, really tells a familiar story, and really drafts off the theme that we've set for the past several weeks, which is the bifurcation in the marketplace. Now, if you take a look at this chart what's really showing is ETR's version of the Gartner Magic Quadrant, but it uses survey data to plot the vendors. So in the y-axis is the metric of it, net score, which is a measurement of spending momentum. And just to review, each quarter ETR surveys more than 1,200 CIOS and IT professionals, and asks them, essentially are they spending more or less on a particular supplier. And what we do is we subtract the less from the more, and the remainder is the net score. So it's sort of like NPS, and I'll go into that a little bit later. But that's the vertical axis. Now the x-axis is called market share. You know, it's really not market share, like IDC measures, rather it's a measure of pervasiveness in the survey and it's calculated by dividing the mentions of a particular company by the total mentions in the overall survey. And you see that's plotted on the horizontal axis. So several points here that I want to note. First is remember, this is April survey data, so for more than 1200 buyers, and you can see we've plotted several companies, including the big three cloud players. You got Microsoft and AWS in the upper right and Google with much lower presence but decent spending momentum. And we've plotted a number of other enterprise players, including several on-prem leaders, like Dell EMC, IBM, Oracle, and Cisco. And we've also included some of the companies that are showing real promise from a momentum standpoint, and penetration. These are business models that we like, and they include Snowflake, the analytic database disruptor, UiPath, who's the RPA specialist, Okta and CrowdStrike who are really killing it in security and Datadog who provides cloud monitoring services. And as you can see, we've superimposed in the upper right a table showing the net scores and market shares for each of the companies. And the story here very clearly quantifies that cloud is winning, and we think it's likely to continue to grow fast and penetrate the enterprise. Now, as we've reported many times, downturns tend to be good for cloud. But the on-prem leaders, you know, as you can see by Cisco's position, for example, they're not going to just roll over. And we'll be covering winning strategies for legacy players in a later segment. But let me just say this, if you're a customer with a lot of on-prem infrastructure, and you're building out data centers, unless you're a big cloud provider, you're probably going to be in the wrong side of history here. Okay. Let's take a closer look at the big three. I want to update you on their IaaS and PaaS numbers as best we can. All recently reported earnings, and this chart shows the data for each of the companies. Now as you can see, each of them has substantial businesses with AWS by far the largest, GCP is growing the fastest. What's notable is that AWS in 2018 was 2.7 x larger than Azure, and today that delta is under two x based on our q1 estimates. And it's just about two X on a trailing 12 month basis. Now, I got to caution you that the AWS numbers are the cleanest AWS reports religiously an easy to understand revenue and operating profit number for its cloud business, every quarter. Microsoft and Google are much fuzzier. You know, for example, you read through Microsoft's 10-K reports and you'll see that their intelligent cloud revenue comprises public and private clouds, hybrid, SQL Server, Windows Server, System Center, GitHub, enterprise support and consulting services and, oh yeah, Azure. So we have to estimate how much of that hairball is actually comparable directly to AWS. Now, Google similarly just started breaking out its cloud revenue in bundles more than just IaaS and PaaS into its cloud numbers. Now, having said that, both Microsoft and Google, they do give little tidbits like Hansel and Gretel of guidance in the form of growth rates or commentary on growth rates in their respective IaaS and PaaS businesses, ie, Azure and GCP. So this is our best estimate, given all that is reported and what we know from survey data. Now, I also want to point out that these clouds are, they're really different in quality and they have different fits for different use cases. For example, Microsoft is building out a cloud really to support it's huge install base of customers, and really make it easy for them to tap into the Microsoft Cloud services, but it may not be the most robust cloud, as has been widely reported in analyzed in the press. You know, Microsoft is struggling to provide adequate capacity for its customers. It's kind of using the COVID-19 pandemic as a bit of a heat shield on this issue. Microsoft put out a blog post essentially saying that it'll, it'll prioritize first responders, health workers, and essential businesses during the COVID 19 pandemic, oh, and Teams customers. So okay, that's one of those caveat emptor situations, you know, if you're not one of these camps, you know, or frankly, maybe if you are. But it's unquestionable that Microsoft has strong momentum across its vast portfolio, including cloud. And really that's what I want to get into next. So let's take a look at some data, we've been reporting for quite some time based on the ETR surveys, that the big cloud players, you know, have very, very strong momentum as measured by net scores. So what this chart shows is the most recent survey results, again, more than 1,200, it buyers 1,269 to be exact. And you can see broadly that all the big three are well on green for net scores as we show in the upper right hand box, and well over 50% net scores for all three, and Microsoft Azure is in the 70% range. So a very, very strong demand across the board. Now remember, ETR is asking buyers to comment on the areas with which they are familiar. So a buyer might be interpreting cloud to include all those things in Microsoft and Google that may not be directly comparable to the AWS responses, but it doesn't matter. The point is, they all have momentum, and you can see, you know, even though there's a slight dip in the most recent survey, you know, which ran during the peak of the shutdown in the US. So even there's a small dip relative to other parts of the survey, cloud is very, very strong. Now, let's dig into the data a bit more, and take a look at the Fortune 500 drill down. So of course, this is an indicator of larger companies. And you can see AWS overtakes Azure in this segment by a small margin, you know, noting the same caveats that I mentioned earlier. But the strength of the net scores for all three is meaningful as they all increased within these larger buying basis. Now let's take a look at this next chart, if we extend that cut, to include the Fortune 1000, you can see here that all three companies again, continue to show strength. But you know, there's a convergence, which really says to me that this multi cloud picture that's emerged, and that CIOs are really now starting to see that whether it's through M and A, or maybe it was shadow IT or whatever, they're faced with a variety of choices that are increasingly viable. And despite my previously and sometimes snarky comments that multi cloud has been more of a symptom of multi vendor versus a clear CIO strategy, that maybe is perhaps beginning to change, especially as they're asked to clean up what I've often called as the crime scene. Now, I want to close by taking a little bit of a closer look at the AWS business specifically. And I want to come back to this notion of net score and explain it a little bit. So what we show here on this wheel chart is really a breakdown of responses across more than 600 AWS customers in the April survey, remember again, this survey ran at the height of the lockdown in the US. It's a global survey well over 100 responses outside of the United States. But really, what's relevant here is the strength of the AWS business overall. This chart shows how net score is essentially derived, ETR asked customers, are you adopting new? Are you increasing spend meaning, increasing by 6% or more? Are you keeping spending flat? Or are you decreasing spending by more than 6%? Or are you chucking the platform i.e. replacement? So look at this, we're talking about nearly 70% of customers spending more in 2020 on AWS than they spent last year, and only 4% are spending less. That's pretty impressive for a player with a $38 billion business. Now the next data point I want to share really shows where the action is across the AWS portfolio, so let's take a look at this. The chart here shows the responses from an end of more than 700 and the net score, or spending momentum, across the AWS portfolio with a comparison across three survey dates, last April, January 2020, and April 2020. And as you can see the very elevated spending momentum across most of the AWS key business lines, including cloud functions, data warehouse, which is EDW, etc, AI and machine learning, workspaces with the work from home pivot. And, you know, there are some areas that are maybe less robust, but nothing in the red zone, red zone, meaning, you know, net scores would be like below, let's say 25% net score. And as you can see, there's really nothing close to that in the AWS portfolio. So you're seeing a very strong momentum for AWS, you know, specifically, and of course, the cloud in general. Now, as I said, the pandemic has been been good for cloud, downturns generally are a tailwind. So if you're building data centers, it's probably not a good use of capital, you know, so server huggers, beware. There's an attractiveness more so than ever with this COVID-19 pandemic of that dial up, dial down service. Watch for software companies starting to use that model, whereas today, they often try to lock you into a, you know, one year or a two year or three year license. Increasingly, we're seeing companies investigate and actually go to market with a true cloud model. Okay, thanks for watching this episode of theCUBE Insights powered by ETR. Remember, these breaking analysis segments are all available as podcasts. You check out siliconangle.com, I publish there weekly, they have all the news, I also published on Wikibon. So don't forget to check out etr.plus, as well get in touch with me @dvellante. Or you can email me at david.vellante@siliconangle.com. Stay safe everybody, and we'll see you next time. (gentle music)

(upbeat orchestral music) >> Hello and welcome to this special Cube Conversation. I'm John Furrier, host of the Cube, here in our Palo Alto studios. We're going to across the pond, across the United States, then the pond to Bill Mew, who is the founder of MEW ERA consulting. We're going to talk privacy. We're going to talk about, you know, the challenges with cloud, cloud scale, and also privacy. With the recent report Facebook behaving like digital gangsters, as the report from The Parliament came out. The huge focus on this big-tech data problem around privacy and user rights. So, Bill, welcome, good to see you. Thanks for coming on camera. I know you're in London area, so you're in the UK, so, great to see you. >> Well, it's really great to join you, and I'm glad the technology's allowing us to chat from this great distance. >> Well, we love to bring the conversations, which are very robust on Twitter, obviously, at @furrier, your @billmew. And all our friends Sarbjeet, Tim Crawford, Stu Minimin. The whole set of Cloud influencers, has been really talking a lot, lately, around digital transformation. You know, it's the classic, you know, cliché, oh digital transformation, blah-blah-blah-blah. It's really about Cloud. It's about Cloud scale, but data. But now, as people start to realize, the scale and some of these immediate benefits of DevOps and agile development. In comes the privacy conversation. In comes the, where's the data? Moving data around is expensive. Managing data and privacy is hugely expensive, and there are consequences. And one of the most obvious news stories, just from the past, you know, 24, 48 hours, is The Parliament report that says Facebook has been acting like digital gangsters. Now this puts it on the main stage. Unpack this for us. >> Well, I come from a Cloud background, and I'm not a sort of rabid privacy campaigner, by any stretch of the imagination. I've been passionate supporter of Cloud and worked with UKCloud, who've been almost unique, being a company that took on Amazon, Google, and Microsoft, in the cloud market. And beat them all at their own game. Here, in the UK, we have a procurement framework that the government hosts called, G-Cloud for public sector technology, and UKCloud captured something like 30, 35% of the market with Amazon way down on 12%. So, it was almost a unique instance. I can't think of a single other market anywhere in the world, where these guys are being beaten at their own game. Sort of in the public cloud market, with a very specific niche. And a niche that the cloud focused on, was differentiating themselves around data sovereignty, higher levels of assurance and security, and making sure that the really sensitive government data, be it your tax records, or possibly your criminal record, if you have one, or medical records, or whatever. All this data is kept safe, and it's really, it's been really interesting to see the news recently, and some of the hysteria around privacy. I've seen, as all of us have, the tech revolution of the cloud, and how all this has come to fruition and enabled so much. And now we are seeing the tech backlash, and I think that's at it's full force at the moment. >> One of the trends that we're seeing, and I want to get your thoughts on this, is that, you know, on the one extreme, is users own their own data and you got to see things, like Blockchain, and some interesting progressive solutions around the supply chain of users owning their own data. And then, just the natural trend of Edge Computing, where the data is closest to the, whether it's the people or the devices, you call it the Internet of Things or Edge Computing. It's now becoming part of cloud, and with the global distributed nature of how the cloud is built, the emphasis on regions. So, you see, you know, certain every country has, might have their own characteristics. How is this changing the digital transformation equation? Because, you know, on one hand, you see people saying, look at, you know, you picked the right cloud for the right job. And then the other one saying, no, it should be all vendor procurement decision, not so much a cloud decision. So, there's kind of like two camps going on here. One's saying, let procurement drive the decision. And the other one saying, let the apps or the workloads drive the architecture and cloud decision. Your thoughts on this kind of mega trend of data at the edge, ownership of data, cloud selection. It's kind of a nightmare, kind of confusing. Your thoughts. >> I think, I think we're definitely seeing an acceptance that we're in a multicloud world. I think there are hardly any companies out there that don't have an element of cloud in a number of different places and that. You may have dictated a strategic alignment about one particular cloud vendor, but you're bound to have some legacy stuff, as well. You may well have some SaaS applications. You may have Salesforce or any other things. And, therefore, by almost by default, almost every organization is in some form of a multi-cloud environment, anyway. And they're all ready to accept that as a reality. And as what we've seen is a cloud migration, and people taking various different workloads to the cloud. People have naturally started with the easy stuff. The low-hanging fruit. So, typically, you're taking virtualized workloads to easy the environments like a VMware Cloud or something like that. You're taking new, the sort of Greenfield developments into sort of cloud native environments. And those are the sort of places, where you're really breaking ground with all of this, and this is going to be leaving behind certain legacy applications, which is the sort of, the really difficult stuff that you'll leave till later. And a lot of people have already cracked, much of the easy stuff, the low-hanging fruit, and they're now having to face up to the more difficult stuff. But, I think one of the things you would need to be worried about, here, is that it's not just about a focus on applications and workloads. One of the things you find is that typically you may have a few new applications that you're developing. You may sort of have the odd so change, from time to time. But, typically, the number of applications you use, and the nature of those applications, doesn't actually change enormously. What does change, is the data volume. So, whilst, people are overly focused on, well, which applications are we going to be moving and in which order. And not enough companies are actually thinking really seriously about, well what are we going to do with the data? People have budgets that are either stationary or possibly in decline, and they have data volumes that are going through the roof. And the moment we have Edge, and the moment we have 5G, this is going to come home, to really haunt them. And you'd actually need to have a really sensible data strategy to get ahead of this problem, otherwise, you're going to be facing big ingress and egress charges, because getting data in and out of the cloud isn't cheap. And also, you're going to have integration problems. But on top of that, you have the privacy issue, because a large chunk of that data is going to be sort of personally identified, viable data. It's going to be the type of data covered by GDPR and possibly new regulations, or whatever is coming up next in the US. A lot of the data won't be covered this, because it will be data that isn't privacy sensitive. But, if you don't have a really sensible data strategy, first of all, you're not going to be able to deal with the massive growing volumes of data, which are just going to get worse with 5G and Edge, but, also, you're face real problems with privacy, if suddenly people say, I want this removed, or I want that taken down, or something like that. And you go, whoa, where the heck is it? How do I do that? >> Yeah, where's it stored? On what servers is it on? So, Bill, I got to get your thoughts on this. You mentioned migration tool. In the news today, Google acquired cloud migration platform, Alooma, which has only raise 15 million in funding, shows that Google is trying to catch up. Amazon pelts highly their migration tool for moving off Oracle. So, you're seeing migration is a big part of it. So, I want to get your thoughts on the cloud players. You got Google, nipping at the heels of Azure. Azure nipping at the heels of AWS. And, you got IBM and Oracle kind of in the back falling behind. I wanted to get your thoughts on the top three, and then IBM and Oracle. Do they have a shot? And your thoughts about IBM Think was just last week. Lot of conversations around IBM and the cloud with their, with their cloud private solution. Your thoughts. Amazon, Azure? >> Okay. >> Google, and then, >> I think >> IBM and Oracle. >> I'm going to take this in two different ways. First of all I'm going to say, well, here's what we're seeing in a general market level. And, secondly, I'm going to say, well, what have I seen on the ground? On the ground, maybe I'll start with that. I worked in the UK public sector and we've been out there competing and winning a lot of business, and doing really very well. One of the things that we've seen is that having established a lead in this market at a point we're the people everyone are gunning for, which is strange to be ahead of the big hyperscalers in this market. We've found that Amazon, and certainly Azure, are all over our accounts. We almost never see a competition or any sort of competitive bids from companies like Oracle or IBM. They're just not in the market. We don't see them at all. And, certainly for IBM, in the UK, the finance sector and the public sector are meant to be the main markets they're focused on, and we're not seeing them. We just got to worry about how credible they are in those markets. Now if you look at sort of a global scale. >> Hold on, just to interrupt. We lost you for a quick second. Got a little glitch in the screen on the connectivity. But, did you mention Oracle, I mean, Google? What's Google like out there on the ground, anything? >> Okay. From a global perspective, there's obviously AWS, who are way ahead. You've got Azure, who are a very credible second player, and they got a lot of strength. I mean, they got a foot both in the public cloud, but also in the hybrid cloud. I think, you shouldn't overlook the strength of the Geostack offering. And, also, they've got an enormously strong partner ecosystem, with CSPs and MSPs. There they're going to take a lot of their technology forward. So, I think, they're going to be credible across the space. Google are in an interesting position. I think they're investing heavily. They have deep pockets. They are some distance behind. I'm not seeing them in any competitive bids that we're entering into. So, you got to worry about how much traction they're really getting in the market, but they've certainly got very deep pockets, and you shouldn't dismiss them. The likes of Alibaba, who, you know, they may not be present in this market at the moment, but, again, you can't dismiss them. The companies that you possibly might dismiss as serious cloud players, are maybe Oracle, and IBM, 'cause we're not seeing them in any of the shortlists that we're up against. We're not seeing them in the market. We're not seeing them put in the level of investment, the billions of infrastructure investment that you need to have to keep up in this market. And I actually think IBM are in a very strong position. When I said, earlier, we've moved a lot of low-hanging fruit, and then we're now getting onto difficult stuff. IBM have the services business to help the big companies with the complex migrations and the really challenging stuff. But I think that's where IBM is going to play, and I think they have a very strong role to play there. I just don't seem them as a cloud player. And, maybe we should just be describing them as a services company. >> I want to get your thoughts on, this might be a little bit tangent to the cloud, but it's kind of related, with multi-cloud on the horizon, or actually here, everyone has a lot of different clouds, when you put the connective tissue together for the multi-cloud, you can't help but ignore Cisco and VMware. Both have presence in enterprises. Thoughts around, you know, the network layer, get NSX on VMware, and you got, also, Cisco moving up the stack with their DevNet program, developer program. We're seeing a lot of action going on around the software-defined data center, as it relates to on-premise and multi-cloud. Your thoughts on that market? Can you share any insights there? >> Yeah, I mean, I've come from a company that was hosting possibly the largest VMware Cloud in Europe, and we're very familiar with some of these technologies, and I think VMware has had a very good position in the market. I'm not sure that they are going to be able to sustain that. We're seeing a lot of people who saw the ability to move virtualized workloads to, sort of VMware Cloud environment as a compelling proposition, but that's a one-off shift. And the moment they have the opportunity to go cloud native, they're going to take it off. And I don't see Vm are really holding the control point now, but that you certainly got VMware on all the different platforms, and it's being controlled by the likes of AWS and others, who can sort of assist their customers to get on to whichever environment within their estate that they want. I think Cisco are coming from an interesting position. Where they got some really great security portfolio, and, in fact, we've used a lot of their hardware, but I don't see them actually, again, having a particular control point in the market. >> Talk about, before we get close out here, I want to get your thoughts on what's going on on Twitter. Obviously, you're highly engaging, you're an influencer on Twitter, subject matter expert, great on camera, obviously, here at the Cube remote. What's the sentiment going on around digital transformation? Sarbjeet and the crowd, all talking, Stu Miniman and I, and Dave Vellante and the Cube team, and the whole community has really been chirppin', obviously 'cause IBM Think was last week, around the context of cloud on-premise, digital transformation. What's the general sentiment in the social media channels, that you're hearing. What's the top story? What's the most important story that's being discussed? >> You can't, you can't get away from the whole privacy debacle. I mean, we have seen the tech revolution. We're now seeing the, sort of, tech backlash, where certain companies, who have made big mistakes and many, many mistakes, I mean, Facebook, you can't avoid mentioning them. And, there are others, but Facebook are front and center. I think they have. >> Looks like we lost you little bit there, Bill. Okay, you're back. >> Yup. >> You're back. (Bill speaking faintly) So, the final question, final question for you. So, if Facebook's the digital gangster on social networking, is there a cloud gangster? >> I'm not sure. (John and Bill laugh) I don't want to point any fingers anywhere. (John laughs) I think there are companies that are the particularly muscular in the market and have a particular market position, and you can't avoid looking at Amazon, there. But, I think that there are some, there's going to be an enormous fragmentation and one side, if we're talking typically about a hybrid environment. You're talking about a mixture of public cloud and private cloud on perimeter age and whatever. In the public cloud, it's going to be concentrated down to possibly three players. And, therefore, they're going to have enormous control. Then you look on the other side of the hybrid equation to the private legacy whatever. That's going to be massively fragmented. I mean, I believe it's like IBM, who are going to be doing some of the complex migrations for some of the big organizations, using their massive services army may have a control on some of the big instances, but there's going to be a massively long tail with all sorts of MSPs and CSPs, providing bespoke solutions and value right down the chain. >> Yeah. >> And that's where I think the channel ecosystems come into play. And those companies that are cloud players also have a strong channel ecosystem? That they're going to be the ones that come out at the end of the day. >> I think the ecosystem is right on, great point. Bill, thanks for spending the time joining us here on the Cube Conversation. I'm John Furrier, here in Palo Alto for a conversation with the influencers, experts around cloud, privacy. This is the big deal. What are you doing with all that data coming in? How's it being managed? How's the value being created? This is the digital transformation challenge. It's the Cube Conversation, in Palo Alto. Thanks for watching. (upbeat orchestral music)

(upbeat music) >> Hello, this is Dave Valente with theCUBE, and one of the most gratifying aspects of my role as a host of "theCUBE TV" is I get to cover a wide range of topics. And quite often, we're able to bring to our program a level of expertise that allows us to more deeply explore and unpack some of the topics that we cover throughout the year. And one of our favorite topics, of course, is data. Now, in 2021, after being in isolation for the better part of two years, a group of industry analysts met up at AWS re:Invent and started a collaboration to look at the trends in data and predict what some likely outcomes will be for the coming year. And it resulted in a very popular session that we had last year focused on the future of data management. And I'm very excited and pleased to tell you that the 2023 edition of that predictions episode is back, and with me are five outstanding market analyst, Sanjeev Mohan of SanjMo, Tony Baer of dbInsight, Carl Olofson from IDC, Dave Menninger from Ventana Research, and Doug Henschen, VP and Principal Analyst at Constellation Research. Now, what is it that we're calling you, guys? A data pack like the rat pack? No, no, no, no, that's not it. It's the data crowd, the data crowd, and the crowd includes some of the best minds in the data analyst community. They'll discuss how data management is evolving and what listeners should prepare for in 2023. Guys, welcome back. Great to see you. >> Good to be here. >> Thank you. >> Thanks, Dave. (Tony and Dave faintly speaks) >> All right, before we get into 2023 predictions, we thought it'd be good to do a look back at how we did in 2022 and give a transparent assessment of those predictions. So, let's get right into it. We're going to bring these up here, the predictions from 2022, they're color-coded red, yellow, and green to signify the degree of accuracy. And I'm pleased to report there's no red. Well, maybe some of you will want to debate that grading system. But as always, we want to be open, so you can decide for yourselves. So, we're going to ask each analyst to review their 2022 prediction and explain their rating and what evidence they have that led them to their conclusion. So, Sanjeev, please kick it off. Your prediction was data governance becomes key. I know that's going to knock you guys over, but elaborate, because you had more detail when you double click on that. >> Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much, Dave, for having us on the show today. And we self-graded ourselves. I could have very easily made my prediction from last year green, but I mentioned why I left it as yellow. I totally fully believe that data governance was in a renaissance in 2022. And why do I say that? You have to look no further than AWS launching its own data catalog called DataZone. Before that, mid-year, we saw Unity Catalog from Databricks went GA. So, overall, I saw there was tremendous movement. When you see these big players launching a new data catalog, you know that they want to be in this space. And this space is highly critical to everything that I feel we will talk about in today's call. Also, if you look at established players, I spoke at Collibra's conference, data.world, work closely with Alation, Informatica, a bunch of other companies, they all added tremendous new capabilities. So, it did become key. The reason I left it as yellow is because I had made a prediction that Collibra would go IPO, and it did not. And I don't think anyone is going IPO right now. The market is really, really down, the funding in VC IPO market. But other than that, data governance had a banner year in 2022. >> Yeah. Well, thank you for that. And of course, you saw data clean rooms being announced at AWS re:Invent, so more evidence. And I like how the fact that you included in your predictions some things that were binary, so you dinged yourself there. So, good job. Okay, Tony Baer, you're up next. Data mesh hits reality check. As you see here, you've given yourself a bright green thumbs up. (Tony laughing) Okay. Let's hear why you feel that was the case. What do you mean by reality check? >> Okay. Thanks, Dave, for having us back again. This is something I just wrote and just tried to get away from, and this just a topic just won't go away. I did speak with a number of folks, early adopters and non-adopters during the year. And I did find that basically that it pretty much validated what I was expecting, which was that there was a lot more, this has now become a front burner issue. And if I had any doubt in my mind, the evidence I would point to is what was originally intended to be a throwaway post on LinkedIn, which I just quickly scribbled down the night before leaving for re:Invent. I was packing at the time, and for some reason, I was doing Google search on data mesh. And I happened to have tripped across this ridiculous article, I will not say where, because it doesn't deserve any publicity, about the eight (Dave laughing) best data mesh software companies of 2022. (Tony laughing) One of my predictions was that you'd see data mesh washing. And I just quickly just hopped on that maybe three sentences and wrote it at about a couple minutes saying this is hogwash, essentially. (laughs) And that just reun... And then, I left for re:Invent. And the next night, when I got into my Vegas hotel room, I clicked on my computer. I saw a 15,000 hits on that post, which was the most hits of any single post I put all year. And the responses were wildly pro and con. So, it pretty much validates my expectation in that data mesh really did hit a lot more scrutiny over this past year. >> Yeah, thank you for that. I remember that article. I remember rolling my eyes when I saw it, and then I recently, (Tony laughing) I talked to Walmart and they actually invoked Martin Fowler and they said that they're working through their data mesh. So, it takes a really lot of thought, and it really, as we've talked about, is really as much an organizational construct. You're not buying data mesh >> Bingo. >> to your point. Okay. Thank you, Tony. Carl Olofson, here we go. You've graded yourself a yellow in the prediction of graph databases. Take off. Please elaborate. >> Yeah, sure. So, I realized in looking at the prediction that it seemed to imply that graph databases could be a major factor in the data world in 2022, which obviously didn't become the case. It was an error on my part in that I should have said it in the right context. It's really a three to five-year time period that graph databases will really become significant, because they still need accepted methodologies that can be applied in a business context as well as proper tools in order for people to be able to use them seriously. But I stand by the idea that it is taking off, because for one thing, Neo4j, which is the leading independent graph database provider, had a very good year. And also, we're seeing interesting developments in terms of things like AWS with Neptune and with Oracle providing graph support in Oracle database this past year. Those things are, as I said, growing gradually. There are other companies like TigerGraph and so forth, that deserve watching as well. But as far as becoming mainstream, it's going to be a few years before we get all the elements together to make that happen. Like any new technology, you have to create an environment in which ordinary people without a whole ton of technical training can actually apply the technology to solve business problems. >> Yeah, thank you for that. These specialized databases, graph databases, time series databases, you see them embedded into mainstream data platforms, but there's a place for these specialized databases, I would suspect we're going to see new types of databases emerge with all this cloud sprawl that we have and maybe to the edge. >> Well, part of it is that it's not as specialized as you might think it. You can apply graphs to great many workloads and use cases. It's just that people have yet to fully explore and discover what those are. >> Yeah. >> And so, it's going to be a process. (laughs) >> All right, Dave Menninger, streaming data permeates the landscape. You gave yourself a yellow. Why? >> Well, I couldn't think of a appropriate combination of yellow and green. Maybe I should have used chartreuse, (Dave laughing) but I was probably a little hard on myself making it yellow. This is another type of specialized data processing like Carl was talking about graph databases is a stream processing, and nearly every data platform offers streaming capabilities now. Often, it's based on Kafka. If you look at Confluent, their revenues have grown at more than 50%, continue to grow at more than 50% a year. They're expected to do more than half a billion dollars in revenue this year. But the thing that hasn't happened yet, and to be honest, they didn't necessarily expect it to happen in one year, is that streaming hasn't become the default way in which we deal with data. It's still a sidecar to data at rest. And I do expect that we'll continue to see streaming become more and more mainstream. I do expect perhaps in the five-year timeframe that we will first deal with data as streaming and then at rest, but the worlds are starting to merge. And we even see some vendors bringing products to market, such as K2View, Hazelcast, and RisingWave Labs. So, in addition to all those core data platform vendors adding these capabilities, there are new vendors approaching this market as well. >> I like the tough grading system, and it's not trivial. And when you talk to practitioners doing this stuff, there's still some complications in the data pipeline. And so, but I think, you're right, it probably was a yellow plus. Doug Henschen, data lakehouses will emerge as dominant. When you talk to people about lakehouses, practitioners, they all use that term. They certainly use the term data lake, but now, they're using lakehouse more and more. What's your thoughts on here? Why the green? What's your evidence there? >> Well, I think, I was accurate. I spoke about it specifically as something that vendors would be pursuing. And we saw yet more lakehouse advocacy in 2022. Google introduced its BigLake service alongside BigQuery. Salesforce introduced Genie, which is really a lakehouse architecture. And it was a safe prediction to say vendors are going to be pursuing this in that AWS, Cloudera, Databricks, Microsoft, Oracle, SAP, Salesforce now, IBM, all advocate this idea of a single platform for all of your data. Now, the trend was also supported in 2023, in that we saw a big embrace of Apache Iceberg in 2022. That's a structured table format. It's used with these lakehouse platforms. It's open, so it ensures portability and it also ensures performance. And that's a structured table that helps with the warehouse side performance. But among those announcements, Snowflake, Google, Cloud Era, SAP, Salesforce, IBM, all embraced Iceberg. But keep in mind, again, I'm talking about this as something that vendors are pursuing as their approach. So, they're advocating end users. It's very cutting edge. I'd say the top, leading edge, 5% of of companies have really embraced the lakehouse. I think, we're now seeing the fast followers, the next 20 to 25% of firms embracing this idea and embracing a lakehouse architecture. I recall Christian Kleinerman at the big Snowflake event last summer, making the announcement about Iceberg, and he asked for a show of hands for any of you in the audience at the keynote, have you heard of Iceberg? And just a smattering of hands went up. So, the vendors are ahead of the curve. They're pushing this trend, and we're now seeing a little bit more mainstream uptake. >> Good. Doug, I was there. It was you, me, and I think, two other hands were up. That was just humorous. (Doug laughing) All right, well, so I liked the fact that we had some yellow and some green. When you think about these things, there's the prediction itself. Did it come true or not? There are the sub predictions that you guys make, and of course, the degree of difficulty. So, thank you for that open assessment. All right, let's get into the 2023 predictions. Let's bring up the predictions. Sanjeev, you're going first. You've got a prediction around unified metadata. What's the prediction, please? >> So, my prediction is that metadata space is currently a mess. It needs to get unified. There are too many use cases of metadata, which are being addressed by disparate systems. For example, data quality has become really big in the last couple of years, data observability, the whole catalog space is actually, people don't like to use the word data catalog anymore, because data catalog sounds like it's a catalog, a museum, if you may, of metadata that you go and admire. So, what I'm saying is that in 2023, we will see that metadata will become the driving force behind things like data ops, things like orchestration of tasks using metadata, not rules. Not saying that if this fails, then do this, if this succeeds, go do that. But it's like getting to the metadata level, and then making a decision as to what to orchestrate, what to automate, how to do data quality check, data observability. So, this space is starting to gel, and I see there'll be more maturation in the metadata space. Even security privacy, some of these topics, which are handled separately. And I'm just talking about data security and data privacy. I'm not talking about infrastructure security. These also need to merge into a unified metadata management piece with some knowledge graph, semantic layer on top, so you can do analytics on it. So, it's no longer something that sits on the side, it's limited in its scope. It is actually the very engine, the very glue that is going to connect data producers and consumers. >> Great. Thank you for that. Doug. Doug Henschen, any thoughts on what Sanjeev just said? Do you agree? Do you disagree? >> Well, I agree with many aspects of what he says. I think, there's a huge opportunity for consolidation and streamlining of these as aspects of governance. Last year, Sanjeev, you said something like, we'll see more people using catalogs than BI. And I have to disagree. I don't think this is a category that's headed for mainstream adoption. It's a behind the scenes activity for the wonky few, or better yet, companies want machine learning and automation to take care of these messy details. We've seen these waves of management technologies, some of the latest data observability, customer data platform, but they failed to sweep away all the earlier investments in data quality and master data management. So, yes, I hope the latest tech offers, glimmers that there's going to be a better, cleaner way of addressing these things. But to my mind, the business leaders, including the CIO, only want to spend as much time and effort and money and resources on these sorts of things to avoid getting breached, ending up in headlines, getting fired or going to jail. So, vendors bring on the ML and AI smarts and the automation of these sorts of activities. >> So, if I may say something, the reason why we have this dichotomy between data catalog and the BI vendors is because data catalogs are very soon, not going to be standalone products, in my opinion. They're going to get embedded. So, when you use a BI tool, you'll actually use the catalog to find out what is it that you want to do, whether you are looking for data or you're looking for an existing dashboard. So, the catalog becomes embedded into the BI tool. >> Hey, Dave Menninger, sometimes you have some data in your back pocket. Do you have any stats (chuckles) on this topic? >> No, I'm glad you asked, because I'm going to... Now, data catalogs are something that's interesting. Sanjeev made a statement that data catalogs are falling out of favor. I don't care what you call them. They're valuable to organizations. Our research shows that organizations that have adequate data catalog technologies are three times more likely to express satisfaction with their analytics for just the reasons that Sanjeev was talking about. You can find what you want, you know you're getting the right information, you know whether or not it's trusted. So, those are good things. So, we expect to see the capabilities, whether it's embedded or separate. We expect to see those capabilities continue to permeate the market. >> And a lot of those catalogs are driven now by machine learning and things. So, they're learning from those patterns of usage by people when people use the data. (airy laughs) >> All right. Okay. Thank you, guys. All right. Let's move on to the next one. Tony Bear, let's bring up the predictions. You got something in here about the modern data stack. We need to rethink it. Is the modern data stack getting long at the tooth? Is it not so modern anymore? >> I think, in a way, it's got almost too modern. It's gotten too, I don't know if it's being long in the tooth, but it is getting long. The modern data stack, it's traditionally been defined as basically you have the data platform, which would be the operational database and the data warehouse. And in between, you have all the tools that are necessary to essentially get that data from the operational realm or the streaming realm for that matter into basically the data warehouse, or as we might be seeing more and more, the data lakehouse. And I think, what's important here is that, or I think, we have seen a lot of progress, and this would be in the cloud, is with the SaaS services. And especially you see that in the modern data stack, which is like all these players, not just the MongoDBs or the Oracles or the Amazons have their database platforms. You see they have the Informatica's, and all the other players there in Fivetrans have their own SaaS services. And within those SaaS services, you get a certain degree of simplicity, which is it takes all the housekeeping off the shoulders of the customers. That's a good thing. The problem is that what we're getting to unfortunately is what I would call lots of islands of simplicity, which means that it leads it (Dave laughing) to the customer to have to integrate or put all that stuff together. It's a complex tool chain. And so, what we really need to think about here, we have too many pieces. And going back to the discussion of catalogs, it's like we have so many catalogs out there, which one do we use? 'Cause chances are of most organizations do not rely on a single catalog at this point. What I'm calling on all the data providers or all the SaaS service providers, is to literally get it together and essentially make this modern data stack less of a stack, make it more of a blending of an end-to-end solution. And that can come in a number of different ways. Part of it is that we're data platform providers have been adding services that are adjacent. And there's some very good examples of this. We've seen progress over the past year or so. For instance, MongoDB integrating search. It's a very common, I guess, sort of tool that basically, that the applications that are developed on MongoDB use, so MongoDB then built it into the database rather than requiring an extra elastic search or open search stack. Amazon just... AWS just did the zero-ETL, which is a first step towards simplifying the process from going from Aurora to Redshift. You've seen same thing with Google, BigQuery integrating basically streaming pipelines. And you're seeing also a lot of movement in database machine learning. So, there's some good moves in this direction. I expect to see more than this year. Part of it's from basically the SaaS platform is adding some functionality. But I also see more importantly, because you're never going to get... This is like asking your data team and your developers, herding cats to standardizing the same tool. In most organizations, that is not going to happen. So, take a look at the most popular combinations of tools and start to come up with some pre-built integrations and pre-built orchestrations, and offer some promotional pricing, maybe not quite two for, but in other words, get two products for the price of two services or for the price of one and a half. I see a lot of potential for this. And it's to me, if the class was to simplify things, this is the next logical step and I expect to see more of this here. >> Yeah, and you see in Oracle, MySQL heat wave, yet another example of eliminating that ETL. Carl Olofson, today, if you think about the data stack and the application stack, they're largely separate. Do you have any thoughts on how that's going to play out? Does that play into this prediction? What do you think? >> Well, I think, that the... I really like Tony's phrase, islands of simplification. It really says (Tony chuckles) what's going on here, which is that all these different vendors you ask about, about how these stacks work. All these different vendors have their own stack vision. And you can... One application group is going to use one, and another application group is going to use another. And some people will say, let's go to, like you go to a Informatica conference and they say, we should be the center of your universe, but you can't connect everything in your universe to Informatica, so you need to use other things. So, the challenge is how do we make those things work together? As Tony has said, and I totally agree, we're never going to get to the point where people standardize on one organizing system. So, the alternative is to have metadata that can be shared amongst those systems and protocols that allow those systems to coordinate their operations. This is standard stuff. It's not easy. But the motive for the vendors is that they can become more active critical players in the enterprise. And of course, the motive for the customer is that things will run better and more completely. So, I've been looking at this in terms of two kinds of metadata. One is the meaning metadata, which says what data can be put together. The other is the operational metadata, which says basically where did it come from? Who created it? What's its current state? What's the security level? Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. The good news is the operational stuff can actually be done automatically, whereas the meaning stuff requires some human intervention. And as we've already heard from, was it Doug, I think, people are disinclined to put a lot of definition into meaning metadata. So, that may be the harder one, but coordination is key. This problem has been with us forever, but with the addition of new data sources, with streaming data with data in different formats, the whole thing has, it's been like what a customer of mine used to say, "I understand your product can make my system run faster, but right now I just feel I'm putting my problems on roller skates. (chuckles) I don't need that to accelerate what's already not working." >> Excellent. Okay, Carl, let's stay with you. I remember in the early days of the big data movement, Hadoop movement, NoSQL was the big thing. And I remember Amr Awadallah said to us in theCUBE that SQL is the killer app for big data. So, your prediction here, if we bring that up is SQL is back. Please elaborate. >> Yeah. So, of course, some people would say, well, it never left. Actually, that's probably closer to true, but in the perception of the marketplace, there's been all this noise about alternative ways of storing, retrieving data, whether it's in key value stores or document databases and so forth. We're getting a lot of messaging that for a while had persuaded people that, oh, we're not going to do analytics in SQL anymore. We're going to use Spark for everything, except that only a handful of people know how to use Spark. Oh, well, that's a problem. Well, how about, and for ordinary conventional business analytics, Spark is like an over-engineered solution to the problem. SQL works just great. What's happened in the past couple years, and what's going to continue to happen is that SQL is insinuating itself into everything we're seeing. We're seeing all the major data lake providers offering SQL support, whether it's Databricks or... And of course, Snowflake is loving this, because that is what they do, and their success is certainly points to the success of SQL, even MongoDB. And we were all, I think, at the MongoDB conference where on one day, we hear SQL is dead. They're not teaching SQL in schools anymore, and this kind of thing. And then, a couple days later at the same conference, they announced we're adding a new analytic capability-based on SQL. But didn't you just say SQL is dead? So, the reality is that SQL is better understood than most other methods of certainly of retrieving and finding data in a data collection, no matter whether it happens to be relational or non-relational. And even in systems that are very non-relational, such as graph and document databases, their query languages are being built or extended to resemble SQL, because SQL is something people understand. >> Now, you remember when we were in high school and you had had to take the... Your debating in the class and you were forced to take one side and defend it. So, I was was at a Vertica conference one time up on stage with Curt Monash, and I had to take the NoSQL, the world is changing paradigm shift. And so just to be controversial, I said to him, Curt Monash, I said, who really needs acid compliance anyway? Tony Baer. And so, (chuckles) of course, his head exploded, but what are your thoughts (guests laughing) on all this? >> Well, my first thought is congratulations, Dave, for surviving being up on stage with Curt Monash. >> Amen. (group laughing) >> I definitely would concur with Carl. We actually are definitely seeing a SQL renaissance and if there's any proof of the pudding here, I see lakehouse is being icing on the cake. As Doug had predicted last year, now, (clears throat) for the record, I think, Doug was about a year ahead of time in his predictions that this year is really the year that I see (clears throat) the lakehouse ecosystems really firming up. You saw the first shots last year. But anyway, on this, data lakes will not go away. I've actually, I'm on the home stretch of doing a market, a landscape on the lakehouse. And lakehouse will not replace data lakes in terms of that. There is the need for those, data scientists who do know Python, who knows Spark, to go in there and basically do their thing without all the restrictions or the constraints of a pre-built, pre-designed table structure. I get that. Same thing for developing models. But on the other hand, there is huge need. Basically, (clears throat) maybe MongoDB was saying that we're not teaching SQL anymore. Well, maybe we have an oversupply of SQL developers. Well, I'm being facetious there, but there is a huge skills based in SQL. Analytics have been built on SQL. They came with lakehouse and why this really helps to fuel a SQL revival is that the core need in the data lake, what brought on the lakehouse was not so much SQL, it was a need for acid. And what was the best way to do it? It was through a relational table structure. So, the whole idea of acid in the lakehouse was not to turn it into a transaction database, but to make the data trusted, secure, and more granularly governed, where you could govern down to column and row level, which you really could not do in a data lake or a file system. So, while lakehouse can be queried in a manner, you can go in there with Python or whatever, it's built on a relational table structure. And so, for that end, for those types of data lakes, it becomes the end state. You cannot bypass that table structure as I learned the hard way during my research. So, the bottom line I'd say here is that lakehouse is proof that we're starting to see the revenge of the SQL nerds. (Dave chuckles) >> Excellent. Okay, let's bring up back up the predictions. Dave Menninger, this one's really thought-provoking and interesting. We're hearing things like data as code, new data applications, machines actually generating plans with no human involvement. And your prediction is the definition of data is expanding. What do you mean by that? >> So, I think, for too long, we've thought about data as the, I would say facts that we collect the readings off of devices and things like that, but data on its own is really insufficient. Organizations need to manipulate that data and examine derivatives of the data to really understand what's happening in their organization, why has it happened, and to project what might happen in the future. And my comment is that these data derivatives need to be supported and managed just like the data needs to be managed. We can't treat this as entirely separate. Think about all the governance discussions we've had. Think about the metadata discussions we've had. If you separate these things, now you've got more moving parts. We're talking about simplicity and simplifying the stack. So, if these things are treated separately, it creates much more complexity. I also think it creates a little bit of a myopic view on the part of the IT organizations that are acquiring these technologies. They need to think more broadly. So, for instance, metrics. Metric stores are becoming much more common part of the tooling that's part of a data platform. Similarly, feature stores are gaining traction. So, those are designed to promote the reuse and consistency across the AI and ML initiatives. The elements that are used in developing an AI or ML model. And let me go back to metrics and just clarify what I mean by that. So, any type of formula involving the data points. I'm distinguishing metrics from features that are used in AI and ML models. And the data platforms themselves are increasingly managing the models as an element of data. So, just like figuring out how to calculate a metric. Well, if you're going to have the features associated with an AI and ML model, you probably need to be managing the model that's associated with those features. The other element where I see expansion is around external data. Organizations for decades have been focused on the data that they generate within their own organization. We see more and more of these platforms acquiring and publishing data to external third-party sources, whether they're within some sort of a partner ecosystem or whether it's a commercial distribution of that information. And our research shows that when organizations use external data, they derive even more benefits from the various analyses that they're conducting. And the last great frontier in my opinion on this expanding world of data is the world of driver-based planning. Very few of the major data platform providers provide these capabilities today. These are the types of things you would do in a spreadsheet. And we all know the issues associated with spreadsheets. They're hard to govern, they're error-prone. And so, if we can take that type of analysis, collecting the occupancy of a rental property, the projected rise in rental rates, the fluctuations perhaps in occupancy, the interest rates associated with financing that property, we can project forward. And that's a very common thing to do. What the income might look like from that property income, the expenses, we can plan and purchase things appropriately. So, I think, we need this broader purview and I'm beginning to see some of those things happen. And the evidence today I would say, is more focused around the metric stores and the feature stores starting to see vendors offer those capabilities. And we're starting to see the ML ops elements of managing the AI and ML models find their way closer to the data platforms as well. >> Very interesting. When I hear metrics, I think of KPIs, I think of data apps, orchestrate people and places and things to optimize around a set of KPIs. It sounds like a metadata challenge more... Somebody once predicted they'll have more metadata than data. Carl, what are your thoughts on this prediction? >> Yeah, I think that what Dave is describing as data derivatives is in a way, another word for what I was calling operational metadata, which not about the data itself, but how it's used, where it came from, what the rules are governing it, and that kind of thing. If you have a rich enough set of those things, then not only can you do a model of how well your vacation property rental may do in terms of income, but also how well your application that's measuring that is doing for you. In other words, how many times have I used it, how much data have I used and what is the relationship between the data that I've used and the benefits that I've derived from using it? Well, we don't have ways of doing that. What's interesting to me is that folks in the content world are way ahead of us here, because they have always tracked their content using these kinds of attributes. Where did it come from? When was it created, when was it modified? Who modified it? And so on and so forth. We need to do more of that with the structure data that we have, so that we can track what it's used. And also, it tells us how well we're doing with it. Is it really benefiting us? Are we being efficient? Are there improvements in processes that we need to consider? Because maybe data gets created and then it isn't used or it gets used, but it gets altered in some way that actually misleads people. (laughs) So, we need the mechanisms to be able to do that. So, I would say that that's... And I'd say that it's true that we need that stuff. I think, that starting to expand is probably the right way to put it. It's going to be expanding for some time. I think, we're still a distance from having all that stuff really working together. >> Maybe we should say it's gestating. (Dave and Carl laughing) >> Sorry, if I may- >> Sanjeev, yeah, I was going to say this... Sanjeev, please comment. This sounds to me like it supports Zhamak Dehghani's principles, but please. >> Absolutely. So, whether we call it data mesh or not, I'm not getting into that conversation, (Dave chuckles) but data (audio breaking) (Tony laughing) everything that I'm hearing what Dave is saying, Carl, this is the year when data products will start to take off. I'm not saying they'll become mainstream. They may take a couple of years to become so, but this is data products, all this thing about vacation rentals and how is it doing, that data is coming from different sources. I'm packaging it into our data product. And to Carl's point, there's a whole operational metadata associated with it. The idea is for organizations to see things like developer productivity, how many releases am I doing of this? What data products are most popular? I'm actually in right now in the process of formulating this concept that just like we had data catalogs, we are very soon going to be requiring data products catalog. So, I can discover these data products. I'm not just creating data products left, right, and center. I need to know, do they already exist? What is the usage? If no one is using a data product, maybe I want to retire and save cost. But this is a data product. Now, there's a associated thing that is also getting debated quite a bit called data contracts. And a data contract to me is literally just formalization of all these aspects of a product. How do you use it? What is the SLA on it, what is the quality that I am prescribing? So, data product, in my opinion, shifts the conversation to the consumers or to the business people. Up to this point when, Dave, you're talking about data and all of data discovery curation is a very data producer-centric. So, I think, we'll see a shift more into the consumer space. >> Yeah. Dave, can I just jump in there just very quickly there, which is that what Sanjeev has been saying there, this is really central to what Zhamak has been talking about. It's basically about making, one, data products are about the lifecycle management of data. Metadata is just elemental to that. And essentially, one of the things that she calls for is making data products discoverable. That's exactly what Sanjeev was talking about. >> By the way, did everyone just no notice how Sanjeev just snuck in another prediction there? So, we've got- >> Yeah. (group laughing) >> But you- >> Can we also say that he snuck in, I think, the term that we'll remember today, which is metadata museums. >> Yeah, but- >> Yeah. >> And also comment to, Tony, to your last year's prediction, you're really talking about it's not something that you're going to buy from a vendor. >> No. >> It's very specific >> Mm-hmm. >> to an organization, their own data product. So, touche on that one. Okay, last prediction. Let's bring them up. Doug Henschen, BI analytics is headed to embedding. What does that mean? >> Well, we all know that conventional BI dashboarding reporting is really commoditized from a vendor perspective. It never enjoyed truly mainstream adoption. Always that 25% of employees are really using these things. I'm seeing rising interest in embedding concise analytics at the point of decision or better still, using analytics as triggers for automation and workflows, and not even necessitating human interaction with visualizations, for example, if we have confidence in the analytics. So, leading companies are pushing for next generation applications, part of this low-code, no-code movement we've seen. And they want to build that decision support right into the app. So, the analytic is right there. Leading enterprise apps vendors, Salesforce, SAP, Microsoft, Oracle, they're all building smart apps with the analytics predictions, even recommendations built into these applications. And I think, the progressive BI analytics vendors are supporting this idea of driving insight to action, not necessarily necessitating humans interacting with it if there's confidence. So, we want prediction, we want embedding, we want automation. This low-code, no-code development movement is very important to bringing the analytics to where people are doing their work. We got to move beyond the, what I call swivel chair integration, between where people do their work and going off to separate reports and dashboards, and having to interpret and analyze before you can go back and do take action. >> And Dave Menninger, today, if you want, analytics or you want to absorb what's happening in the business, you typically got to go ask an expert, and then wait. So, what are your thoughts on Doug's prediction? >> I'm in total agreement with Doug. I'm going to say that collectively... So, how did we get here? I'm going to say collectively as an industry, we made a mistake. We made BI and analytics separate from the operational systems. Now, okay, it wasn't really a mistake. We were limited by the technology available at the time. Decades ago, we had to separate these two systems, so that the analytics didn't impact the operations. You don't want the operations preventing you from being able to do a transaction. But we've gone beyond that now. We can bring these two systems and worlds together and organizations recognize that need to change. As Doug said, the majority of the workforce and the majority of organizations doesn't have access to analytics. That's wrong. (chuckles) We've got to change that. And one of the ways that's going to change is with embedded analytics. 2/3 of organizations recognize that embedded analytics are important and it even ranks higher in importance than AI and ML in those organizations. So, it's interesting. This is a really important topic to the organizations that are consuming these technologies. The good news is it works. Organizations that have embraced embedded analytics are more comfortable with self-service than those that have not, as opposed to turning somebody loose, in the wild with the data. They're given a guided path to the data. And the research shows that 65% of organizations that have adopted embedded analytics are comfortable with self-service compared with just 40% of organizations that are turning people loose in an ad hoc way with the data. So, totally behind Doug's predictions. >> Can I just break in with something here, a comment on what Dave said about what Doug said, which (laughs) is that I totally agree with what you said about embedded analytics. And at IDC, we made a prediction in our future intelligence, future of intelligence service three years ago that this was going to happen. And the thing that we're waiting for is for developers to build... You have to write the applications to work that way. It just doesn't happen automagically. Developers have to write applications that reference analytic data and apply it while they're running. And that could involve simple things like complex queries against the live data, which is through something that I've been calling analytic transaction processing. Or it could be through something more sophisticated that involves AI operations as Doug has been suggesting, where the result is enacted pretty much automatically unless the scores are too low and you need to have a human being look at it. So, I think that that is definitely something we've been watching for. I'm not sure how soon it will come, because it seems to take a long time for people to change their thinking. But I think, as Dave was saying, once they do and they apply these principles in their application development, the rewards are great. >> Yeah, this is very much, I would say, very consistent with what we were talking about, I was talking about before, about basically rethinking the modern data stack and going into more of an end-to-end solution solution. I think, that what we're talking about clearly here is operational analytics. There'll still be a need for your data scientists to go offline just in their data lakes to do all that very exploratory and that deep modeling. But clearly, it just makes sense to bring operational analytics into where people work into their workspace and further flatten that modern data stack. >> But with all this metadata and all this intelligence, we're talking about injecting AI into applications, it does seem like we're entering a new era of not only data, but new era of apps. Today, most applications are about filling forms out or codifying processes and require a human input. And it seems like there's enough data now and enough intelligence in the system that the system can actually pull data from, whether it's the transaction system, e-commerce, the supply chain, ERP, and actually do something with that data without human involvement, present it to humans. Do you guys see this as a new frontier? >> I think, that's certainly- >> Very much so, but it's going to take a while, as Carl said. You have to design it, you have to get the prediction into the system, you have to get the analytics at the point of decision has to be relevant to that decision point. >> And I also recall basically a lot of the ERP vendors back like 10 years ago, we're promising that. And the fact that we're still looking at the promises shows just how difficult, how much of a challenge it is to get to what Doug's saying. >> One element that could be applied in this case is (indistinct) architecture. If applications are developed that are event-driven rather than following the script or sequence that some programmer or designer had preconceived, then you'll have much more flexible applications. You can inject decisions at various points using this technology much more easily. It's a completely different way of writing applications. And it actually involves a lot more data, which is why we should all like it. (laughs) But in the end (Tony laughing) it's more stable, it's easier to manage, easier to maintain, and it's actually more efficient, which is the result of an MIT study from about 10 years ago, and still, we are not seeing this come to fruition in most business applications. >> And do you think it's going to require a new type of data platform database? Today, data's all far-flung. We see that's all over the clouds and at the edge. Today, you cache- >> We need a super cloud. >> You cache that data, you're throwing into memory. I mentioned, MySQL heat wave. There are other examples where it's a brute force approach, but maybe we need new ways of laying data out on disk and new database architectures, and just when we thought we had it all figured out. >> Well, without referring to disk, which to my mind, is almost like talking about cave painting. I think, that (Dave laughing) all the things that have been mentioned by all of us today are elements of what I'm talking about. In other words, the whole improvement of the data mesh, the improvement of metadata across the board and improvement of the ability to track data and judge its freshness the way we judge the freshness of a melon or something like that, to determine whether we can still use it. Is it still good? That kind of thing. Bringing together data from multiple sources dynamically and real-time requires all the things we've been talking about. All the predictions that we've talked about today add up to elements that can make this happen. >> Well, guys, it's always tremendous to get these wonderful minds together and get your insights, and I love how it shapes the outcome here of the predictions, and let's see how we did. We're going to leave it there. I want to thank Sanjeev, Tony, Carl, David, and Doug. Really appreciate the collaboration and thought that you guys put into these sessions. Really, thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thanks, Dave. >> Thank you for having us. >> Thanks. >> Thank you. >> All right, this is Dave Valente for theCUBE, signing off for now. Follow these guys on social media. Look for coverage on siliconangle.com, theCUBE.net. Thank you for watching. (upbeat music)

(vibrant electronic music) >> Welcome back to SuperCloud2. You know, this event, and the Super Cloud initiative in general, it's an open industry-wide collaboration. Last August at SuperCloud22, we really honed in on the definition, which of course we've published. And there's this shared doc, which folks are still adding to and refining, in fact, just recently, Dr. Nelu Mihai added some critical points that really advanced some of the community's initial principles, and today at SuperCloud2, we're digging further into the topic with input from real world practitioners, and we're exploring that intersection of data, data mesh, and cloud, and importantly, the realities and challenges of deploying technology to drive new business capability, and I'm pleased to welcome Ash Naseer to the program. He's a Senior Director of Data Engineering at Warner Bros. Discovery. Ash, great to see you again, thanks so much for taking time with us. >> It's great to be back, these conversations are always very fun. >> I was so excited when we met last spring, I guess, so before we get started I wanted to play a clip from that conversation, it was June, it was at the Snowflake Summit in Las Vegas. And it's a comment that you made about your company but also data mesh. Guys, roll the clip. >> Yeah, so, when people think of Warner Bros., you always think of the movie studio. But we're more than that, right, I mean, you think of HBO, you think of TNT, you think of CNN. We have 30 plus brands in our portfolio, and each have their own needs. So the idea of a data mesh really helps us because what we can do is we can federate access across the company, so that CNN can work at their own pace, you know, when there's election season, they can ingest their own data. And they don't have to bump up against, as an example, HBO, if Game of Thrones is goin' on. >> So-- Okay, so that's pretty interesting, so you've got these sort of different groups that have different data requirements inside of your organization. Now data mesh, it's a relatively new concept, so you're kind of ahead of the curve. So Ash, my question is, when you think about getting value from data, and how that's changed over the past decade, you've had pre-Hadoop, Hadoop, what do you see that's changed, now you got the cloud coming in, what's changed? What had to be sort of fixed? What's working now, and where do you see it going? >> Yeah, so I feel like in the last decade, we've gone through quite a maturity curve. I actually like to say that we're in the golden age of data, because the tools and technology in the data space, particularly and then broadly in the cloud, they allow us to do things that we couldn't do way back when, like you suggested, back in the Hadoop era or even before that. So there's certainly a lot of maturity, and a lot of technology that has come about. So in terms of the good, bad, and ugly, so let me kind of start with the good, right? In terms of bringing value from the data, I really feel like we're in this place where the folks that are charged with unlocking that value from the data, they're actually spending the majority of their time actually doing that. And what do I mean by that? If you think about it, 10 years ago, the data scientist was the person that was going to sort of solve all of the data problems in a company. But what happened was, companies asked these data scientists to come in and do a multitude of things. And what these data scientists found out was, they were spending most of their time on, really, data wrangling, and less on actually getting the value out of the data. And in the last decade or so, I feel like we've made the shift, and we realize that data engineering, data management, data governance, those are as important practices as data science, which is sort of getting the value out of the data. And so what that has done is, it has freed up the data scientist and the business analyst and the data analyst, and the BI expert, to really focus on how to get value out of the data, and spend less time wrangling data. So I really think that that's the good. In terms of the bad, I feel like, there's a lot of legacy data platforms out there, and I feel like there's going to be a time where we'll be in that hybrid mode. And then the ugly, I feel like, with all the data and all the technology, creates another problem of itself. Because most companies don't have arms around their data, and making sure that they know who's using the data, what they're using for, and how can the company leverage the collective intelligence. That is a bigger problem to solve today than 10 years ago. And that's where technologies like the data mesh come in. >> Yeah, so when I think of data mesh, and I say, you're an early practitioner of data mesh, you mentioned legacy technology, so the concept of data mesh is inclusive. In theory anyway, you're supposed to be including the legacy technologies. Whether it's a data lake or data warehouse or Oracle or Snowflake or whatever it is. And when you think about Jamak Dagani's principles, it's domain-centric ownership, data as product. And that creates challenges around self-serve infrastructure and automated governance, and then when you start to combine these different technologies. You got legacy, you got cloud. Everything's different. And so you have to figure out how to deal with that, so my question is, how have you dealt with that, and what role has the cloud played in solving those problems, in particular, that self-serve infrastructure, and that automated governance, and where are we in terms of solving that problem from a practitioner's standpoint? >> Yeah, I always like to say that data is a team sport, and we should sort of think of it as such, and that's, I feel like, the key of the data mesh concept, is treating it as a team sport. A lot of people ask me, they're like, "Oh hey, Ash, I've heard about this thing called data mesh. "Where can I buy one?" or, "what's the technology that I use to get a data mesh? And the reality is that there isn't one technology, you can't really buy a data mesh. It's really a way of life, it's how organizations decide to approach data, like I said, back to a team sport analogy, making sure that everyone has the seat on the table, making sure that we embrace the fact that we have a lot of data, we have a lot of data problems to solve. And the way we'll be successful is to make everyone inclusive. You know, you think about the old days, Data silos or shadow IT, some might call it. That's been around for decades. And what hasn't changed was this notion that, hey, everything needs to be sort of managed centrally. But with the cloud and with the technologies that we have today, we have the right technology and the tooling to democratize that data, and democratize not only just the access, but also sort of building building blocks and sort of taking building blocks which are relevant to your product or your business. And adding to the overall data mesh. We've got all that technology. The challenge is for us to really embrace it, and make sure that we implement it from an organizational standpoint. >> So, thinking about super cloud, there's a layer that lives above the clouds and adds value. And you think about your brands you got 30 brands, you mentioned shadow IT. If, let's say, one of those brands, HBO or TNT, whatever. They want to go, "Hey, we really like Google's analytics tools," and they maybe go off and build something, I don't know if that's even allowed, maybe it's not. But then you build this data mesh. My question is around multi-cloud, cross cloud, super cloud if you will. Is that a advantage for you as a practitioner, or does that just make things more complicated? >> I really love the idea of a multi-cloud. I think it's great, I think that it should have been the norm, not the exception, I feel like people talk about it as if it's the exception. That should have been the case. I will say, though, I feel like multi-cloud should evolve organically, so back to your point about some of these different brands, and, you know, different brands or different business units. Or even in a merger and acquisitions situation, where two different companies or multiple different companies come together with different technology stacks. You know, I feel like that's an organic evolution, and making sure that we use the concepts and the technologies around the multi-cloud to bring everyone together. That's where we need to be, and again, it talks to the fact that each of those business units and each of those groups have their own unique needs, and we need to make sure that we embrace that and we enable that, rather than stifling everything. Now where I have a little bit of a challenge with the multi-cloud is when technology leaders try to build it by design. So there's a notion there that, "Hey, you need to sort of diversify "and don't put all your eggs in one basket." And so we need to have this multi-cloud thing. I feel like that is just sort of creating more complexity where it doesn't need to be, we can all sort of simplify our lives, but where it evolves organically, absolutely, I think that's the right way to go. >> But, so Ash, if it evolves organically don't you need some kind of cloud interpreter, to create a common experience across clouds, does that exist today? What are your thoughts on that? >> There is a lot of technology that exists today, and that helps go between these different clouds, a lot of these sort of cloud agnostic technologies that you talked about, the Snowflakes and the Databricks and so forth of the world, they operate in multiple clouds, they operate in multiple regions, within a given cloud and multiple clouds. So they span all of that, and they have the tools and technology, so, I feel like the tooling is there. There does need to be more of an evolution around the tooling and I think the market's need are going to dictate that, I feel like the market is there, they're asking for it, so, there's definitely going to be that evolution, but the technology is there, I think just making sure that we embrace that and we sort of embrace that as a challenge and not try to sort of shut all of that down and box everything into one. >> What's the biggest challenge, is it governance or security? Or is it more like you're saying, adoption, cultural? >> I think it's a combination of cultural as well as governance. And so, the cultural side I've talked about, right, just making sure that we give these different teams a seat at the table, and they actually bring that technology into the mix. And we use the modern tools and technologies to make sure that everybody sort of plays nice together. That is definitely, we have ways to go there. But then, in terms of governance, that is another big problem that most companies are just starting to wrestle with. Because like I said, I mean, the data silos and shadow IT, that's been around there, right? The only difference is that we're now sort of bringing everything together in a cloud environment, the collective organization has access to that. And now we just realized, oh we have quite a data problem at our hands, so how do we sort of organize this data, make sure that the quality is there, the trust is there. When people look at that data, a lot of those questions are now coming to the forefront because everything is sort of so transparent with the cloud, right? And so I feel like, again, putting in the right processes, and the right tooling to address that is going to be critical in the next years to come. >> Is sharing data across clouds, something that is valuable to you, or even within a single cloud, being able to share data. And my question is, not just within your organization, but even outside your organization, is that something that has sort of hit your radar or is it mature or is that something that really would add value to your business? >> Data sharing is huge, and again, this is another one of those things which isn't new. You know, I remember back in the '90s, when we had to share data externally, with our partners or our vendors, they used to physically send us stacks of these tapes, or physical media on some truck. And we've evolved since then, right, I mean, it went from that to sharing files online and so forth. But data sharing as a concept and as a concept which is now very frictionless, through these different technologies that we have today, that is very new. And that is something, like I said, it's always been going on. But that needs to be really embraced more as well. We as a company heavily leverage data sharing between our own different brands and business units, that helps us make that data mesh, so that when CNN, as an example, builds their own data model based on election data and the kinds of data that they need, compare that with other data in the rest of the company, sports, entertainment, and so forth and so on. Everyone has their unique data, but that data sharing capability brings it together wherever there is a need. So you think about having a Tiger Woods documentary, as an example, on HBO Max and making sure that you reach the audiences that are interested in golf and interested in sports and so forth, right? That all comes through the magic of data sharing, so, it's really critical, internally, for us. And then externally as well, because just understanding how our products are doing on our partners' networks and different distribution channels, that's important, and then just understanding how our consumers are consuming it off properties, right, I mean, we have brands that transcend just the screen, right? We have a lot of physical merchandise that you can buy in the store. So again, understanding who's buying the Batman action figures after the Batman movie was released, that's another critical insight. So it all gets enabled through data sharing, and something we rely heavily on. >> So I wanted to get your perspective on this. So I feel like the nirvana of data mesh is if I want to use Google BigQuery, an Oracle database, or a Microsoft database, or Snowflake, Databricks, Amazon, whatever. That that's a node on the mesh. And in the perfect world, you can share that data, it can be governed, I don't think we're quite there today, so. But within a platform, maybe it's within Google or within Amazon or within Snowflake or Databricks. If you're in that world, maybe even Oracle. You actually can do some levels of data sharing, maybe greater with some than others. Do you mandate as an organization that you have to use this particular data platform, or are you saying "Hey, we are architecting a data mesh for the future "where we believe the technology will support that," or maybe you've invented some technology that supports that today, can you help us understand that? >> Yeah, I always feel like mandate is a strong area, and it breeds the shadow IT and the data silos. So we don't mandate, we do make sure that there's a consistent set of governance rules, policies, and tooling that's there, so that everyone is on the same page. However, at the same time our focus is really operating in a federated way, that's been our solution, right? Is to make sure that we work within a common set of tooling, which may be different technologies, which in some cases may be different clouds. Although we're not that multi-cloud. So what we're trying to do is making sure that everyone who has that technology already built, as long as it sort of follows certain standards, it's modern, it has the capabilities that will eventually allow us to be successful and eventually allow for that data sharing, amongst those different nodes, as you put it. As long as that's the case, and as long as there's a governance layer, a master governance layer, where we know where all that data is and who has access to what and we can sort of be really confident about the quality of the data, as long as that case, our approach to that is really that federated approach. >> Sorry, did I hear you correctly, you're not multi-cloud today? >> Yeah, that's correct. There are certain spots where we use that, but by and large, we rely on a particular cloud, and that's just been, like I said, it's been the evolution, it was our evolution. We decided early on to focus on a single cloud, and that's the direction we've been going in. >> So, do you want to go to a multi-cloud, or, you mentioned organic before, if a business unit wants to go there, as long as they're adhering to those standards that you put out, maybe recommendations, that that's okay? I guess my question is, does that bring benefit to your business that you'd like to tap, or do you feel like it's not necessary? >> I'll go back to the point of, if it happens organically, we're going to be open about it. Obviously we'll have to look at every situations, not all clouds are created equal as well, so there's a number of different considerations. But by and large, when it happens organically, the key is time to value, right? How do you quickly bring those technologies in, as long as you could share the data, they're interconnected, they're secured, they're governed, we are confident on the quality, as long as those principles are met, we could definitely go in that direction. But by and large, we're sort of evolving in a singular direction, but even within a singular cloud, we're a global company. And we have audiences around the world, so making sure that even within a single cloud, those different regions interoperate as one, that's a bigger challenge that we're having to solve as well. >> Last question is kind of to the future of data and cloud and how it's going to evolve, do you see a day when companies like yours are increasingly going to be offering data, their software, services, and becoming more of a technology company, sort of pointing your tooling and your proprietary knowledge at the external world, as an opportunity, as a business opportunity? >> That's a very interesting concept, and I know companies have done that, and some of them have been extremely successful, I mean, Amazon is the biggest example that comes to mind, right-- >> Yeah. >> When they launched AWS, something that they had that expertise they had internally, and they offered it to the world as a product. But by and large, I think it's going to be far and few between, especially, it's going to be focused on companies that have technology as their DNA, or almost like in the technology sector, building technology. Most other companies have different markets that they are addressing. And in my opinion, a lot of these companies, what they're trying to do is really focus on the problems that we can solve for ourselves, I think there are more problems than we have people and expertise. So my guess is that most large companies, they're going to focus on solving their own problems. A few, like I said, more tech-focused companies, that would want to be in that business, would probably branch out, but by and large, I think companies will continue to focus on serving their customers and serving their own business. >> Alright, Ash, we're going to leave it there, Ash Naseer. Thank you so much for your perspectives, it was great to see you, I'm sure we'll see you face-to-face later on this year. >> This is great, thank you for having me. >> Ah, you're welcome, alright. Keep it right there for more great content from SuperCloud2. We'll be right back. (gentle percussive music)

>>The Cube presents Ignite 22, brought to you by Palo Alto Networks. >>Welcome back everyone. We're so glad that you're still with us. It's the Cube Live at the MGM Grand. This is our second day of coverage of Palo Alto Networks Ignite. This is takeaways from Ignite 22. Lisa Martin here with two really smart guys, Dave Valante. Dave, we're joined by one of our cube alumni, a friend, a friend of the, we say friend of the Cube. >>Yeah, otc. A friend of the Cube >>Karala joined us. Guys, it's great to have you here. It's been an exciting show. A lot of cybersecurity is one of my favorite topics to talk about. But I'd love to get some of the big takeaways from both of you. Dave, we'll start with you. >>A breathing room from two weeks ago. Yeah, that was, that was really pleasant. You know, I mean, I know was, yes, you sat in the analyst program, interested in what your takeaways were from there. But, you know, coming into this, we wrote a piece, Palo Alto's Gold Standard, what they need to do to, to keep that, that status. And we hear it a lot about consolidation. That's their big theme now, which is timely, right? Cause people wanna save money, they wanna do more with less. But I'm really interested in hearing zeus's thoughts on how that's playing in the market. How customers, how easy is it to just say, oh, hey, I'm gonna consolidate. I wanna get into that a little bit with you, how well the strategy's working. We're gonna get into some of the m and a activity and really bring your perspectives to the table. Well, >>It's, it's not easy. I mean, people have been calling for the consolidation of security for decades, and it's, it's, they're the first company that's actually made it happen. Right? And, and I think this is what we're seeing here is the culmination of this long term strategy, this company trying to build more of a platform. And they, you know, they, they came out as a firewall vendor. And I think it's safe to say they're more than firewall today. That's only about two thirds of their revenue now. So down from 80% a few years ago. And when I think of what Palo Alto has become, they're really a data company. Now, if you look at, you know, unit 42 in Cortex, the, the, the Cortex Data Lake, they've done an excellent job of taking telemetry from their products and from the acquisitions they have, right? And bringing that together into one big data lake. >>And then they're able to use that to, to do faster threat notification, forensics, things like that. And so I think the old model of security of create signatures for known threats, it's safe to say it never really worked and it wasn't ever gonna work. You had too many day zero exploits and things. The only way to fight security today is with a AI and ML based analytics. And they have, they're the gold standard. I think the one thing about your post that I would add the gold standard from a data standpoint, and that's given them this competitive advantage to go out and become a platform for a security. Which, like I said, the people have tried to do that for years. And the first one that's actually done it, well, >>We've heard this from some of the startups, like Lacework will say, oh, we treat security as a data problem. Of course there's a startup, Palo Alto's got, you know, whatever, 10, 15 years of, of, of history. But one of the things I wanted to explore with you coming into this was the notion of can you be best of breed and develop a suite? And we, we've been hearing a consistent answer to that question, which is, and, and do you need to, and the answer is, well, best of breed in security requires that full spectrum, that full view. So here's my question to you. So, okay, let's take Esty win relatively new for these guys, right? Yeah. Okay. And >>And one of the few products are not top two, top three in, right? Exactly. >>Yeah. So that's why I want to take that. Yeah. Because in bakeoffs, they're gonna lose on a head-to-head best of breed. And so the customer's gonna say, Hey, you know, I love your, your consolidation play, your esty win's. Just, okay, how about a little discount on that? And you know, these guys are premium priced. Yes. So, you know, are they in essentially through their pricing strategies, sort of creating that stuff, fighting that, is that friction for them where they've got, you know, the customer says, all right, well forget it, we're gonna go stove pipe with the SD WAN will consolidate some of the stuff. Are you seeing that? >>Yeah, I, I, I still think the sales model is that way. And I think that's something they need to work on changing. If they get into a situation where they have to get down into a feature battle of my SD WAN versus your SD wan, my firewall versus your firewall, frankly they've already lost, you know, because their value prop is the suite and, and is the platform. And I was talking to the CISO here that told me, he realizes now that you don't need best of breed everywhere to have best in class threat protection. In fact, best of breed everywhere leads to suboptimal threat protection. Cuz you have all these data data sets that are in silos, right? And so from a data scientist standpoint, right, there's the good data leads to good insights. Well, partial data leads to fragmented insights and that's, that's what the best, best of breed approach gives you. And so I was talking with Palo about this, can they have this vision of being best of breed and platform? I don't really think you can maintain best of breed everywhere across this portfolio this big, but you don't need to. >>That was my second point of my >>Question. That's the point. >>Yeah. And so, cuz cuz because you know, we've talked about this, that that sweets always win in the long run, >>Sweets >>Win. Yeah. But here's the thing, I, I wonder to your your point about, you know, the customer, you know, understanding that that that, that this resonates with them. I, my guess is a lot of customers, you know, at that mid-level and the fat middle are like still sort of wed, you know, hugging that, that tool. So there's, there's work to be done here, but I think they, they, they got it right Because if they devolve, to your point, if they devolve down to that speeds and feeds, eh, what's the point of that? Where's their valuable? >>You do not wanna get into a knife fight. And I, and I, and I think for them the, a big challenge now is convincing customers that the suite, the suite approach does work. And they have to be able to do that in actual customer examples. And so, you know, I I interviewed a bunch of customers here and the ones that have bought into XDR and xor and even are looking at their sim have told me that the, the, so think of soc operations, the old way heavily manually oriented, right? You have multiple panes of glass and you know, and then you've got, so there's a lot of people work before you bring the tools in, right? If done correctly with AI and ml, the machines would do all the heavy lifting and then you'd bring people in at the end to clean up the little bits that were missed, right? >>And so you, you moved to, from something that was very people heavy to something that's machine heavy and machines can work a lot faster than people. And the, and so the ones that I've talked that have, that have done that have said, look, our engineers have moved on to a lot different things. They're doing penetration testing, they're, you know, helping us with, with strategy and they're not fighting that, that daily fight of looking through log files. And the only proof point you need, Dave, is look at every big breach that we've had over the last five years. There's some SIM vendor up there that says, we caught it. Yeah. >>Yeah. We we had the data. >>Yeah. But, but, but the security team missed it. Well they missed it because you're, nobody can look at that much data manually. And so the, I I think their approach of relying heavily on machines to fight the fight is actually the right way. >>Is that a differentiator for them versus, we were talking before we went live that you and I first hit our very first segment back in 2017 at Fort Net. Is that, where do the two stand in your >>Yeah, it's funny cuz if you talk to the two vendors, they don't really see each other in a lot of accounts because Fort Net's more small market mid-market. It's the same strategy to some degree where Fort Net relies heavily on in-house development and Palo Alto relies heavily on acquisition. Yeah. And so I think from a consistently feature set, you know, Fort Net has an advantage there because it, it's all run off their, their their silicon. Where, where Palo's able to innovate very quickly. The, it it requires a lot of work right? To, to bring the front end and back ends together. But they're serving different markets. So >>Do you see that as a differentiator? The integration strategy that Palo Alto has as a differentiator? We talk to so many companies who have an a strong m and a strategy and, and execution arm. But the challenge is always integrating the technology so that the customer to, you know, ultimately it's the customer. >>I actually think they're, they're underrated as a, an acquirer. In fact, Dave wrote a post to a prior on Silicon Angle prior to Accelerate and he, he on, you put it on Twitter and you asked people to rank 'em as an acquirer and they were in the middle of the pack, >>Right? It was, it was. So it was Oracle, VMware, emc, ibm, Cisco, ServiceNow, and Palo Alto. Yeah. Or Oracle got very high marks. It was like 8.5 out of, you know, 10. Yeah. VMware I think was 6.5. Nice. Era was high emc, big range. IBM five to seven. Cisco was three to eight. Yeah. Yeah, right. ServiceNow was a seven. And then, yeah, Palo Alto was like a five. And I, which I think it was unfair. >>Well, and I think it depends on how you look at it. And I, so I think a lot of the acquisitions Palo Altos made, they've done a good job of integrating their backend data and they've almost ignored the front end. And so when you buy some of the products, it's a little clunky today. You know, if you work with Prisma Cloud, it could be a little bit cleaner. And even with, you know, the SD wan that took 'em a long time to bring CloudGenix in and stuff. But I think the approach is right. I don't, I don't necessarily believe you should integrate the front end until you've integrated the back end. >>That's >>The hard part, right? Because UL ultimately what you're gonna get, you're gonna get two panes of glass and one pane of glass and it might look pretty all mush together, but ultimately you're not solving the bigger problem, right. Of, of being able to create that big data like the, the fight security. And so I think, you know, the approach they've taken is the right one. I think from a user standpoint, maybe it doesn't show up as neatly because you don't see the frontend integration, but the way they're doing it is the right way to do it. And I'm glad they're doing it that way versus caving to the pressures of what, you know, the industry might want >>Showed up in the performance of the company. I mean, this company was basically gonna double revenues to 7 billion from 2020 to >>2023. Three. Think about that at that, that >>Make a, that's unbelievable, right? I mean, and then and they wanna double again. Yeah. You know, so, well >>What did, what did Nikesh was quoted as saying they wanna be the first cyber company that's a hundred billion dollars. He didn't give a timeline market cap. >>Right. >>Market cap, right. Do what I wanna get both of your opinions on what you saw and heard and felt this week. What do you think the likelihood is? And and do you have any projections on how, you know, how many years it's gonna take for them to get there? >>Well, >>Well I think so if they're gonna get that big, right? And, and we were talking about this pre-show, any company that's becoming a big company does it through ecosystem >>Bingo. >>Right? And that when you look around the show floor, it's not that impressive. And if that, if there's an area they need to focus on, it's building that ecosystem. And it's not with other security vendors, it's with application vendors and it's with the cloud companies and stuff. And they've got some relationships there, but they need to do more. I actually challenge 'em on that. One of the analyst sessions. They said, look, we've got 800 cortex partners. Well where are they? Right? Why isn't there a cortex stand here with a bunch of the small companies here? So I do think that that is an area they need to focus on. If they are gonna get to that, that market caps number, they will do so do so through ecosystem. Because every company that's achieved that has done it through ecosystem. >>A hundred percent agree. And you know, if you look at CrowdStrike's ecosystem, it's pretty similar. Yeah. You know, it doesn't really, you know, make much, much, not much different from this, but I went back and just looked at some, you know, peak valuations during the pandemic and shortly thereafter CrowdStrike was 70 billion. You know, that's what their roughly their peak Palo Alto was 56, fortune was 59 for the actually diverged. Right. And now Palo Alto has taken the, the top mantle, you know, today it's market cap's 52. So it's held 93% of its peak value. Everybody else is tanking. Even Okta was 45 billion. It's been crushed as you well know. But, so Palo Alto wasn't always, you know, the number one in terms of market cap. But I guess my point is, look, if CrowdStrike could got to 70 billion during Yeah. During the frenzy, I think it's gonna take, to answer your question, I think it's gonna be five years. Okay. Before they get back there. I think this market's gonna be tough for a while from a valuation standpoint. I think generally tech is gonna kind of go up and down and sideways for a good year and a half, maybe even two years could be even longer. And then I think there's gonna be some next wave of productivity innovation that that hits. And then you're gonna, you're almost always gonna exceed the previous highs. It's gonna take a while. Yeah, >>Yeah, yeah. But I think their ability to disrupt the SIM market actually is something I, I believe they're gonna do. I've been calling for the death of the sim for a long time and I know some people at Palo Alto are very cautious about saying that cuz the Splunks and the, you know, they're, they're their partners. But I, I think the, you know, it's what I said before, the, the tools are catching them, but they're, it's not in a way that's useful for the IT pro and, but I, I don't think the SIM vendors have that ecosystem of insight across network cloud endpoint. Right. Which is what you need in order to make a sim useful. >>CISO at an ETR roundtable said, if, if it weren't for my regulators, I would chuck my sim. >>Yes. >>But that's the only reason that, that this person was keeping it. So, >>Yeah. And I think the, the fact that most of those companies have moved to a perpetual MO or a a recurring revenue model actually helps unseat them. Typically when you pour a bunch of money into something, you remember the old computer associate days, nobody ever took it out cuz the sunk dollars you spent to do it. But now that you're paying an annual recurring fee, it's actually makes it easier to take out. So >>Yeah, it's it's an ebb and flow, right? Yeah. Because the maintenance costs were, you know, relatively low. Maybe it was 20% of the total. And then, you know, once every five years you had to do a refresh and you were still locked into the sort of maintenance and, and so yeah, I think you're right. The switching costs with sas, you know, in theory anyway, should be less >>Yeah. As long as you can migrate the data over. And I think they've got a pretty good handle on that. So, >>Yeah. So guys, I wanna get your perspective as a whole bunch of announcements here. We've only been here for a couple days, not a big conference as, as you can see from behind us. What Zs in your opinion was Palo Alto's main message and and what do you think about it main message at this event? And then same question for you. >>Yeah, I, I think their message largely wrapped around disruption, right? And, and they, in The's keynote already talked about that, right? And where they disrupted the firewall market by creating a NextGen firewall. In fact, if you look at all the new services they added to their firewall, you, you could almost say it's a NextGen NextGen firewall. But, but I do think the, the work they've done in the area of cloud and cortex actually I think is, is pretty impressive. And I think that's the, the SOC is ripe for disruption because it's for, for the most part, most socks still, you know, run off legacy playbooks. They run off legacy, you know, forensic models and things and they don't work. It's why we have so many breaches today. The, the dirty little secret that nobody ever wants to talk about is the bad guys are using machine learning, right? And so if you're using a signature based model, all they're do is tweak their model a little bit and it becomes, it bypasses them. So I, I think the only way to fight the the bad guys today is with you gotta fight fire with fire. And I think that's, that's the path they've, they've headed >>Down and the bad guys are hiding in plain sight, you know? >>Yeah, yeah. Well it's, it's not hard to do now with a lot of those legacy tools. So >>I think, I think for me, you know, the stat that we threw out earlier, I think yesterday at our keynote analysis was, you know, the ETR data shows that are, that are that last survey around 35% of the respondents said we are actively consolidating, sorry, 44%, sorry, 35 says we're actively consolidating vendors, redundant vendors today. That number's up to 44%. Yeah. It's by far the number one cost optimization technique. That's what these guys are pitching. And I think it's gonna resonate with people and, and I think to your point, they're integrating at the backend, their beeps are technical, right? I mean, they can deal with that complexity. Yeah. And so they don't need eye candy. Eventually they, they, they want to have that cuz it'll allow 'em to have deeper market penetration and make people more productive. But you know, that consolidation message came through loud and clear. >>Yeah. The big change in this industry too is all the new startups are all cloud native, right? They're all built on Amazon or Google or whatever. Yeah. And when your cloud native and you buy a cloud native integration is fast. It's not like having to integrate this big monolithic software stack anymore. Right. So I I think their pace of integration will only accelerate from here because everything's now cloud native. >>If a customer comes to you or when a customer comes to you and says, Zs help us with this cyber transformation we have, our board isn't necessarily with our executives in terms of execution of a security strategy. How do you advise them where Palo Alto is concerned? >>Yeah. You know, a lot, a lot of this is just fighting legacy mindset. And I've, I was talking with some CISOs here from state and local governments and things and they're, you know, they can't get more budget. They're fighting the tide. But what they did find is through the use of automation technology, they're able to bring their people costs way down. Right. And then be able to use that budget to invest in a lot of new projects. And so with that, you, you have to start with your biggest pain points, apply automation where you can, and then be able to use that budget to reinvest back in your security strategy. And it's good for the IT pros too, the security pros, my advice to, to it pros is if you're doing things today that aren't resume building, stop doing them. Right? Find a way to automate the money your job. And so if you're patching systems and you're looking through log files, there's no reason machines can't do that. And you go do something a lot more interesting. >>So true. It's like storage guys 10 years ago, provisioning loans. Yes. It's like, stop doing that. Yeah. You're gonna be outta a job. And so who, last question I have is, is who do you see as the big competitors, the horses on the track question, right? So obviously Cisco kind of service has led for a while and you know, big portfolio company, CrowdStrike coming at it from end point. You know who, who, who do you see as the real players going for that? You know, right now the market's three to 4%. The leader has three, three 4% of the market. You know who they're all going for? 10, 15, maybe 20% of the market. Who, who are the likely candidates? Yeah, >>I don't know if CrowdStrike really has the breadth of portfolio to compete long term though. I I think they've had a nice run, but I, we might start to see the follow 'em. I think Microsoft is gonna be for middle. They've laid down the gauntlet, right? They are a security vendor, right? We, we were at Reinvent and a AWS is the platform for security vendors. Yes. Middle, somewhere in the middle. But Microsoft make no mistake, they're in security. They've got some good products. I think a lot of 'em are kind of good enough and they, they tie it to the licensing and I'm not sure that works in security, but they've certainly got the ear of a lot of it pros. >>It might work in smb. >>Yeah. Yeah. It, it might. And, and I do like Zscaler. I, I know these guys poo poo the proxy model, but they've, they've done about as much with proxies as you can. And I, I think it's, it's a battle of, I love the, the, the near, you know, proxies are dead and Jay's model, you know, Jay over at c skater throw 'em back at 'em. So I, it's good to see that kind of fight going on between the two. >>Oh, it's great. Well, and, and again, ZScaler's coming at it from their cloud security angle. CrowdStrike's coming at it from endpoint. I, I do think CrowdStrike has an opportunity to build out the portfolio through m and a and maybe ecosystem. And then obviously, you know, Palo Alto's getting it done. How about Cisco? >>Yeah. Cisco's interesting. And I, I think if Cisco can make the network matter in security and it should, right? We're talking about how a lot of you need a lot of forensics to fight security today. Well, they're gonna see things long before anybody else because they have all that network data. If they can tie network security, I, I mean they could really have that business take off. But we've been saying that about Cisco for 20 years. >>But big install based though. Yeah. It's hard for a company, any company to just say, okay, hey Cisco customer sweep the floor and come with us. That's, that's >>A tough thing. They have a lot of good peace parts, right? And like duo's a good product and umbrella's a good product. They've, they've not done a good job. >>They're the opposite of these guys. >>They've not done a good job of the backend integration that, that's where Cisco needs to, to focus. And I do think g G two Patel there fixed the WebEx group and I think he's now, in fact when you talk to him, he's doing very little on WebEx that that group's running itself and he's more focused in security. So I, I think we could see a resurgence there. But you know, they have a, from a revenue perspective, it's a little misleading cuz they have this big legacy base that's in decline while they're moving to cloud and stuff. So, but they, but they, there's a lot of work there're trying to, to tie to network. >>Right. Lots of fuel for conversation. We're gonna have to carry this on, on Silicon angle.com guys. Yes. And Wikibon, lets do see us. Thank you so much for joining Dave and me giving us your insights as to this event. Where are you gonna be next? Are you gonna be on vacation? >>There's nothing more fun than mean on the cube, so, right. What's outside of that though? Yeah, you know, Christmas coming up, I gotta go see family and do the obligatory, although for me that's a lot of travel, so I guess >>More planes. Yeah. >>Hopefully not in Vegas. >>Not in Vegas. >>Awesome. Nothing against Vegas. Yeah, no, >>We love it. We >>Love it. Although I will say my year started off with ces. Yeah. And it's finishing up with Palo Alto here. The bookends. Yeah, exactly. In Vegas bookends. >>Well thanks so much for joining us. Thank you Dave. Always a pleasure to host a show with you and hear your insights. Reading your breaking analysis always kicks off my prep for show and it's always great to see, but predictions come true. So thank you for being my co-host bet. All right. For Dave Valante Enz as Carla, I'm Lisa Martin. You've been watching The Cube, the leader in live, emerging and enterprise tech coverage. Thanks for watching.

(upbeat music) >> The cloud is evolving. You know, it's no longer a set of remote services somewhere off in the cloud, in the distance. It's expanding. It's moving to on-prem. On-prem workloads are connecting to the cloud. They're spanning clouds in a way that hides the plumbing and simplifies deployment, management, security, and governance. So hybrid multicloud is the next big thing in infrastructure, and at the recent Nutanix .NEXT conference, we got a major dose of that theme, and with me to talk about what we heard at that event, what we learned, why it matters, and what it means to customers are Monica Kumar, who's the senior vice president of marketing and cloud go-to-market at Nutanix, and Tarkan Maner, who's the chief commercial officer at Nutanix. Guys, great to see you again. Welcome to the theCUBE. >> Great to be back here. >> Great to see you, Dave. >> Okay, so you just completed another .NEXT. As an analyst, I like to evaluate the messaging at an event like this, drill into the technical details to try to understand if you're actually investing in the things that you're promoting in your keynotes, and then talk to customers to see how real it is. So with that as a warning, you guys are all in on hybrid multicloud, and I have my takeaways that I'd be happy to share, but, Tarkan, what were your impressions, coming out of the event? >> Look, you had a great entry. Our goal, as Monica is going to outline, too, cloud is not a destination. It's an operating model. Our customers are basically using cloud as a business model, as an operating model. It's not just a bunch of techno mumbo-jumbo, as, kind of, you outlined. We want to make sure we make cloud invisible to the customer so they can focus on what they need to focus on as a business. So as part of that, we want to make sure the workloads, the apps, they can run anywhere the way the customer wants. So in that context, you know, our entire story was bringing customer workloads, use-cases, partner ecosystem with ISVs and cloud providers and service providers and ISPs we're working with like Citrix on end user computing, like Red Hat on cloud native, and also bringing the right products, both in terms of infrastructure capability and management capability for both operators and application developers. So bringing all these pieces together and make it simple for the customer to use the cloud as an operating model. That was the biggest goal here. >> Great, thank you. Monica, anything you'd add in terms of your takeaways? >> Well, I think Tarkan said it right. We are here to make cloud complexity invisible. This was our big event to get thousands of our customers, partners, our supporters together and unveil our product portfolio, which is much more simplified, now. It's a cloud platform. And really have a chance to show them how we are building an ecosystem around it, and really bringing to life the whole notion of hybrid multicloud computing. >> So, Monica, could you just, for our audience, just summarize the big news that came out of .NEXT? >> Yeah, we actually made four different announcements, and most of them were focused around, obviously, our product portfolio. So the first one was around enhancements to our cloud platform to help customers build modern, software-defined data centers to speed their hybrid multicloud deployments while supporting their business-critical applications, and that was really about the next version of our flagship, AOS six, availability. We announced the general availability of that, and key features really included things like built-in virtual networking, disaster recovery enhancements, security enhancements that otherwise would need a lot of specialized hardware, software, and skills are now built into our platform. And, most importantly, all of this functionality being managed through a single interface, right? Which significantly decreases the operational overhead. So that was one announcement. The second announcement was focused around data services and really making it easy for customers to simplify data management, also optimize big data and database workloads. We announced capability that now improves performances of database workloads by 2x, big data workloads by 3x, so lots of great stuff there. We also announced a new service called Nutanix Data Lens, which is a new unstructured data governance service. So, again, I don't want to go into a lot of details here. Maybe we can do it later. That was our second big announcement. The third announcement, which is really around partnerships, and we'll talk more about that, is with Microsoft. We announced the preview of Nutanix Clusters and Azure, and that's really taking our entire flagship Nutanix platform and running it on Azure. And so, now, we are in preview on that one, and we're super excited about that. And then, last but not least, and I know Tarkan is going to go into a lot more detail, is we announced a strategic partnership with Citrix around the whole future of hybrid work. So lots of big news coming out of it. I just gave you a quick summary. There's a lot more around this, as well. >> Okay. Now, I'd like to give you my honest take, if you guys don't mind, and, Tarkan, I'll steal one of your lines. Don't hate me, okay? So the first thing I'm going to say is I think, Nutanix, you have the absolute right vision. There's no question in my mind. But what you're doing is not trivial, and I think it's going to play out. It's going to take a number of years. To actually build an abstraction layer, which is where you're going, as I take it, as a platform that can exploit all the respective cloud native primitives and run virtually any workload in any cloud. And then what you're doing, as I see it, is abstracting that underlying technology complexity and bringing that same experience on-prem, across clouds, and as I say, that's hard. I will say this: the deep dives that I got at the analyst event, it convinced me that you're committed to this vision. You're spending real dollars on focused research and development on this effort, and, very importantly, you're sticking to your true heritage of making this simple. Now, you're not alone. All the non-hyperscalers are going after the multicloud opportunity, which, again, is really challenging, but my assessment is you're ahead of the game. You're certainly focused on your markets, but, from what I've seen, I believe it's one of the best examples of a true hybrid multicloud-- you're on that journey-- that I've seen to date. So I would give you high marks there. And I like the ecosystem-building piece of it. So, Tarkan, you could course-correct anything that I've said, and I'd love for you to pick up on your comments. It takes a village, you know, you're sort of invoking Hillary Clinton, to bring the right solution to customers. So maybe you could talk about some of that, as well. >> Look, actually, you hit all the right points, and I don't hate you for that. I love you for that, as you know. Look, at the end of the day, we started this journey about 10 years ago. The last two years with Monica, with the great executive team, and overall team as a whole, big push to what you just suggested. We're not necessarily, you know, passionate about cloud. Again, it's a business model. We're passionate about customer outcomes, and some of those outcomes sometimes are going to also be on-prem. That's why we focus on this terminology, hybrid multicloud. It is not multicloud, it's not just private cloud or on-prem and non-cloud. We want to make sure customers have the right outcomes. So based on that, whether those are cloud partners or platform partners like HPE, Dell, Supermicro. We just announced a partnership with Supermicro, now, we're selling our software. HPE, we run on GreenLake. Lenovo, we run on TruScale. Big support for Lenovo. Dell's still a great partner to us. On cloud partnerships, as Monica mentioned, obviously Azure. We had a big session with AWS. Lots of new work going on with Red Hat as an ISV partner. Tying that also to IBM Cloud, as we move forward, as Red Hat and IBM Cloud go hand in hand, and also tons of workarounds, as Monica mentioned. So it takes a village. We want to make sure customer outcomes deliver value. So anywhere, for any app, on any infrastructure, any cloud, regardless standards or protocols, we want to make sure we have an open system coverage, not only for operators, but also for application developers, develop those applications securely and for operators, run and manage those applications securely anywhere. So from that perspective, tons of interest, obviously, on the Citrix or the UC side, as Monica mentioned earlier, we also just announced the Red Hat partnership for cloud services. Right before that, next we highlighted that, and we are super excited about those two partnerships. >> Yeah, so, when I talked to some of your product folks and got into the technology a little bit, it's clear to me you're not wrapping your stack in containers and shoving it into the cloud and hosting it like some do. You're actually going much deeper. And, again, that's why it's hard. You could take advantage of those things, but-- So, Monica, you were on the stage at .NEXT with Eric Lockhart of Microsoft. Maybe you can share some details around the focus on Azure and what it means for customers. >> Absolutely. First of all, I'm so grateful that Eric actually flew out to the Bay Area to be live on stage with us. So very super grateful for Eric and Azure partnership there. As I said earlier, we announced the preview of Nutanix Clusters and Azure. It's a big deal. We've been working on it for a while. What this means is that a select few organizations will have an opportunity to get early access and also help shape the roadmap of our offering. And, obviously, we're looking forward to then announcing general availability soon after that. So that's number one. We're already seeing tremendous interest. We have a large number of customers who want to get their hands on early access. We are already working with them to get them set up. The second piece that Eric and I talked about really was, you know, the reason why the work that we're doing together is so important is because we do know that hybrid cloud is the preferred IT model. You know, we've heard that in spades from all different industries' research, by talking to customers, by talking to people like yourselves. However, when customers actually start deploying it, there's lots of issues that come up. There's limited skill sets, resources, and, most importantly, there's a disparity between the on-premises networking security management and the cloud networking security management. And that's what we are focused on, together as partners, is removing that barrier, the friction between on-prem and Azure cloud. So our customers can easily migrate their workloads in Azure cloud, do cloud disaster recovery, create a burst into cloud for elasticity if they need to, or even use Azure as an on-ramp to modernize applications by using the Azure cloud services. So that's one big piece. The second piece is our partnership around Kubernetes and cloud native, and that's something we've already provided to the market. It's GA with Azure and Nutanix cloud platform working together to build Kubernetes-based applications, container-based applications, and run them and manage them. So there's a lot more information on nutanix.com/azure. And I would say, for those of our listeners who want to give it a try and who want their hands on it, we also have a test drive available. You can actually experience the product by going to nutanix.com/azure and taking the test drive. >> Excellent. Now, Tarkan, we saw recently that you announced services. You've got HPE GreenLake, Lenovo, their Azure service, which is called TruScale. We saw you with Keith White at HPE Discover. I was just with Keith White this week, by the way, face to face. Awesome guy. So that's exciting. You got some investments going on there. What can you tell us about those partnerships? >> So, look, as we talked through this a little bit, the HPE relationship is a very critical relationship. One of our fastest growing partnerships. You know, our customers now can run a Nutanix software on any HPE platform. We call it DX, is the platform. But beyond that, now, if the customers want to use HPE service as-a-service, now, Nutanix software, the entire stack, it's not only hybrid multicloud platform, the database capability, EUC capability, storage capability, can run on HPE's service, GreenLake service. Same thing, by the way, same way available on Lenovo. Again, we're doing similar work with Dell and Supermicro, again, giving our customers choice. If they want to go to a public club partner like Azure, AWS, they have that choice. And also, as you know, I know Monica, you're going to talk about this, with our GSI partnerships and new service provider program, we're giving options to customers because, in some other regions, HPE might not be their choice or Azure not be choice, and a local telco might the choice in some country like Japan or India. So we give options and capability to the customers to run Nutanix software anywhere they like. >> I think that's a really important point you're making because, as I see all these infrastructure providers, who are traditionally on-prem players, introduce as-a-service, one of the things I'm looking for is, sure, they've got to have their own services, their own products available, but what other ecosystem partners are they offering? Are they truly giving the customers choice? Because that's, really, that's the hallmark of a cloud provider. You know, if we think about Amazon, you don't always have to use the Amazon product. You can use actually a competitive product, and that's the way it is. They let the customers choose. Of course, they want to sell their own, but, if you innovate fast enough, which, of course, Nutanix is all about innovation, a lot of customers are going to choose you. So that's key to these as-a-service models. So, Monica, Tarkan mentioned the GSIs. What can you tell us about the big partners there? >> Yeah, definitely. Actually, before I talk about GSIs, I do want to make sure our listeners understand we already support AWS in a public cloud, right? So Nutanix totally is available in general, generally available on AWS to use and build a hybrid cloud offering. And the reason I say that is because our philosophy from day one, even on the infrastructure side, has been freedom of choice for our customers and supporting as large a number of platforms and substrates as we can. And that's the notion that we are continuing, here, forward with. So to talk about GSIs a bit more, obviously, when you say one platform, any app, any cloud, any cloud includes on-prem, it includes hyperscalers, it includes the regional service providers, as well. So as an example, TCS is a really great partner of ours. We have a long history of working together with TCS, in global 2000 accounts across many different industries, retail, financial services, energy, and we are really focused, for example, with them, on expanding our joint business around mission critical applications deployment in our customer accounts, and specifically our databases with Nutanix Era, for example. Another great partner for us is HCL. In fact, HCL's solution SKALE DB, we showcased at .NEXT just yesterday. And SKALE DB is a fully managed database service that HCL offers which includes a Nutanix platform, including Nutanix Era, which is our database service, along with HCL services, as well as the hardware/software that customers need to actually run their business applications on it. And then, moving on to service providers, you know, we have great partnerships like with Cyxtera, who, in fact, was the service provider partner of the year. That's the award they just got. And many other service providers, including working with, you know, all of the edge cloud, Equinix. So, I can go on. We have a long list of partnerships, but what I want to say is that these are very important partnerships to us. All the way from, as Tarkan said, OEMs, hyperscalers, ISVs, you know, like Red Hat, Citrix, and, of course, our service provider, GSI partnerships. And then, last but not least, I think, Tarkan, I'd love for you to maybe comment on our channel partnerships as well, right? That's a very important part of our ecosystem. >> No, absolutely. You're absolutely right. Monica. As you suggested, our GSI program is one of the best programs in the industry in number of GSIs we support, new SP program, enterprise solution providers, service provider program, covering telcos and regional service providers, like you suggested, OVH in France, NTT in Japan, Yotta group in India, Cyxtera in the US. We have over 50 new service providers signed up in the last few months since the announcement, but tying all these things, obviously, to our overall channel ecosystem with our distributors and resellers, which is moving very nicely. We have Christian Alvarez, who is running our channel programs globally. And one last piece, Dave, I think this was important point that Monica brought up. Again, give choice to our customers. It's not about cloud by itself. It's outcomes, but cloud is an enabler to get there, especially in a hybrid multicloud fashion. And last point I would add to this is help customers regardless of the stage they're in in their cloud migration. From rehosting to replatforming, repurchasing or refactoring, rearchitecting applications or retaining applications or retiring applications, they will have different needs. And what we're trying to do, with Monica's help, with the entire team: choice. Choice in stage, choice in maturity to migrate to cloud, and choice on platform. >> So I want to close. First of all, I want to give some of my impressions. So we've been watching Nutanix since the early days. I remember vividly standing around the conference call with my colleague at the time, Stu Miniman. The state-of-the-art was converged infrastructure, at the time, bolting together storage, networking, and compute, very hardware centric. And the founding team at Nutanix told us, "We're going to have a software-led version of that." And you popularized, you kind of created the hyperconverged infrastructure market. You created what we called at the time true private cloud, scaled up as a company, and now you're really going after that multicloud, hybrid cloud opportunity. Jerry Chen and Greylock, they just wrote a piece called Castles on the Cloud, and the whole concept was, and I say this all the time, the hyperscalers, last year, just spent a hundred billion dollars on CapEx. That's a gift to companies that can add value on top of that. And that's exactly the strategy that you're taking, so I like it. You've got to move fast, and you are. So, guys, thanks for coming on, but I want you to both-- maybe, Tarkan, you can start, and Monica, you can bring us home. Give us your wrap up, your summary, and any final thoughts. >> All right, look, I'm going to go back to where I started this. Again, I know I go back. This is like a broken record, but it's so important we hear from the customers. Again, cloud is not a destination. It's a business model. We are here to support those outcomes, regardless of platform, regardless of hypervisor, cloud type or app, making sure from legacy apps to cloud native apps, we are there for the customers regardless of their stage in their migration. >> Dave: Right, thank you. Monica? >> Yeah. And I, again, you know, just the whole conversation we've been having is around this but I'll remind everybody that why we started out. Our journey was to make infrastructure invisible. We are now very well poised to helping our customers, making the cloud complexity invisible. So our customers can focus on business outcomes and innovation. And, as you can see, coming out of .NEXT, we've been firing on all cylinders to deliver this differentiated, unified hybrid multicloud platform so our customers can really run any app, anywhere, on any cloud. And with the simplicity that we are known for because, you know, our customers love us. NPS 90 plus seven years in a row. But, again, the guiding principle is simplicity, portability, choice. And, really, our compass is our customers. So that's what we are focused on. >> Well, I love not having to get on planes every Sunday and coming back every Friday, but I do miss going to events like .NEXT, where I meet a lot of those customers. And I, again, we've been following you guys since the early days. I can attest to the customer delight. I've spent a lot of time with them, driven in taxis, hung out at parties, on buses. And so, guys, listen, good luck in the next chapter of Nutanix. We'll be there reporting and really appreciate your time. >> Thank you so much. >> Thank you so much, Dave. >> All right, and thank you for watching, everybody. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE, and, as always, we'll see you next time. (light music)

(upbeat electronic music plays) >> Hey everyone, welcome back to theCube's coverage of .NEXT 2021 Virtual. I'm John Furrier, hosts of theCube. We have two great guests, Rajiv Mirani, who's the Chief Technology Officer, and Thomas Cornely, SVP of Product Management. Day Two keynote product, the platform, announcements, news. A lot of people, Rajiv, are super excited about the, the platform, uh, moving to a subscription model. Everything's kind of coming into place. How are the customers, uh, seeing this? How they adopted hybrid cloud as a hybrid, hybrid, hybrid, data, data, data? Those are the, those are the, that's the, that's where the puck is right now. You guys are there. How are customers seeing this? >> Mirani: Um, um, great question, John, by the way, great to be back here on theCube again this year. So when we talk to our customers, pretty much, all of them agreed that for them, the ideal state that they want to be in is a hybrid world, right? That they want to essentially be able to run both of those, both on the private data center and the public cloud, and sort of have a common platform, common experience, common, uh, skillset, same people managing, managing workloads across both locations. And unfortunately, most of them don't have that that tooling available today to do so, right. And that's where the platform, the Nutanix platform's come a long way. We've always been great at running in the data center, running every single workload, we continue to make great strides on our core with the increased performance for, for the most demanding, uh, workloads out there. But what we have done in the last couple of years has also extended this platform to run in the public cloud and essentially provide the same capabilities, the same operational behavior across locations. And that's when you're seeing a lot of excitement from our customers because they really want to be in that state, for it to have the common tooling across work locations, as you can imagine, we're getting traction. Customers who want to move workloads to public cloud, they don't want to spend the effort to refactor them. Or for customers who really want to operate in a hybrid mode with things like disaster recovery, cloud bursting, workloads like that. So, you know, I think we've made a great step in that direction. And we look forward to doing more with our customers. >> Furrier: What is the big challenge that you're seeing with this hybrid transition from your customers and how are you solving that specifically? >> Mirani: Yeah. If you look at how public and private operate today, they're very different in the kind of technologies used. And most customers today will have two separate teams, like one for their on-prem workloads, using a certain set of tooling, a second completely different team, managing a completely different set of workloads, but with different technologies. And that's not an ideal state in some senses, that's not true hybrid, right? It's like creating two new silos, if anything. And our vision is that you get to a point where both of these operate in the same manner, you've got the same people managing all of them, the same workloads anyway, but similar performance, similar SaaS. So they're going to literally get to point where applications and data can move back and forth. And that's, that's, that's where I think the real future is for hybrid >> Furrier: I have to ask you a personal question. As the CTO, you've got be excited with the architecture that's evolving with hybrid and multi-cloud, I mean, I mean, it's pretty, pretty exciting from a tech standpoint, what is your reaction to that? >> Mirani: %100 and it's been a long time coming, right? We have been building pieces of this over years. And if you look at all the product announcements, Nutanix has made over the last few years and the acquisitions that made them and so on, there's been a purpose behind them. That's been a purpose to get to this model where we can operate a customer's workloads in a hybrid environment. So really, really happy to see all of that come together. Years and years of work finally finally bearing fruit. >> Furrier: Well, we've had many conversations in the past, but it congratulates a lot more to do with so much more action happening. Thomas, you get the keys to the kingdom, okay, and the product management you've got to prioritize, you've got to put it together. What are the key components of this Nutanix cloud platform? The hybrid cloud, multi-cloud strategy that's in place, because there's a lot of headroom there, but take us through the key components today and then how that translates into hybrid multi-cloud for the future. >> Cornely: Certainly, John, thank you again and great to be here, and kind of, Rajiv, you said really nicely here. If you look at our portfolio at Nutanix, what we have is great technologies. They've been sold as a lot of different products in the past, right. And what we've done last few months is we kind of bring things together, simplify and streamline, and we align everything around a cloud platform, right? And this is really the messaging that we're going after is look, it's not about the price of our solutions, but business outcomes for customers. And so are we focusing on pushing the cloud platform, which we encompasses five key areas for us, which we refer to as cloud infrastructure, no deficiencies running your workloads. Cloud management, which is how you're going to go and actually manage, operate, automate, and get governance. And then services on top that started on all around data, right? So we have unified storage, finding the objects, data services. We have database services. Now we have outset of desktop services, which is for EMC. So all of this, the big change for us is this is something that, you know, you can consume in terms of solutions and consume on premises. As Rajiv discussed, you know, we can take the same platform and deploy it in public cloud regions now, right? So you can now get no seamless hybrid cloud, same operating model. But increasingly what we're doing is taking your solutions and re-targeting issues and problems at workers running native public clouds. So think of this as going, after automating more governance, security, you know, finding objects, database services, wherever you're workload is running. So this is taking this portfolio and reapplying it, and targeting on prem at the edge in hybrid and in christening public cloud in ATV. >> Furrier: That's awesome. I've been watching some of the footage and I was noticing quite a lot of innovation around virtualized, networking, disaster, recovery security, and data services. It's all good. You guys were, and this is in your wheelhouse. I know you guys are doing this for many, many years. I want to dive deeper into that because the theme right now that we've been reporting on, you guys are hitting right here what the keynote is cloud scale is about faster development, right? Cloud native is about speed, it's about not waiting for these old departments, IT or security to get back to them in days or weeks and responding to either policy or some changes, you got to move faster. And data, data is critical in all of this. So we'll start with virtualized networking because networking again is a key part of it. The developers want to go faster. They're shifting left, take us through the virtualization piece of how important that is. >> Mirani: Yeah, that's actually a great question as well. So if you think about it, virtual networking is the first step towards building a real cloud like infrastructure on premises that extends out to include networking as well. So one of the key components of any cloud is automation. Another key component is self service and with the API, is it bigger on virtual networking All of that becomes much simpler, much more possible than having to, you know, qualify it, work with someone there to reconfigure physical networks and slots. We can, we can do that in a self service way, much more automated way. But beyond that, the, the, the notion of watching networks is really powerful because it helps us to now essentially extend networks and, and replicate networks anywhere on the private data center, but in the public cloud as well. So now when customers move their workloads, we'd already made that very simple with our clusters offering. But if you're only peek behind the layers a little bit, it's like, well, yea, but the network's not the same on the side. So now it, now it means that a go re IP, my workloads create new subnets and all of that. So there was a little bit of complication left in that process. So to actual network that goes away also. So essentially you can repeat the same network in both locations. You can literally move your workloads, no redesign of your network acquired and still get that self service and automation capabilities of which cookies so great step forward, it really helps us complete the infrastructure as a service stack. We had great storage capabilities before, we create compute capabilities before, and sort of networking the third leg and all of that. >> Furrier: Talk about the complexity here, because I think a lot of people will look at dev ops movement and say, infrastructure is code when you go to one cloud, it's okay. You can, you can, you know, make things easier. Programmable. When, when you start getting into data center, private data centers, or essentially edges now, cause if it's distributed cloud environment or cloud operations, it's essentially one big cloud operation. So the networks are different. As you said, this is a big deal. Okay. This is sort of make infrastructure as code happen in multiple environments across multiple clouds is not trivial. Could you talk about the main trends and how you guys see this evolving and how you solve that? >> Mirani: Yeah. Well, the beauty here is that we are actually creating the same environment everywhere, right? From, from, from point of view of networking, compute, and storage, but also things like security. So when you move workloads, things with security, posture also moves, which is also super important. It's a really hard problem, and something a lot of CIO's struggle with, but having the same security posture in public and private clouds reporting as well. So with this, with this clusters offering and our on-prem offering competing with the infrastructure service stack, you may not have this capability where your operations really are unified across multicloud hybrid cloud in any way you run. >> Furrier: Okay, so if I have multiple cloud vendors, there are different vendors. You guys are creating a connection unifying those three. Is that right? >> Mirani: Essentially, yes, so we're running the same stack on all of them and abstracting away the differences between the clouds that you can run operations. >> Furrier: And when the benefits, the benefits of the customers are what? What's the main, what's the main benefit there? >> Mirani: Essentially. They don't have to worry about, about where their workloads are running. Then they can pick the best cloud for their workloads. It can seamlessly move them between Cloud. They can move their data over easily, and essentially stop worrying about getting locked into a single, into a single cloud either in a multi-cloud scenario or in a hybrid cloud scenario, right. There many, many companies now were started on a cloud first mandate, but over time realized that they want to move workloads back to on-prem or the other way around. They have traditional workloads that they started on prem and want to move them to public cloud now. And we make that really simple. >> Furrier: Yeah. It's kind of a trick question. I wanted to tee that up for Thomas, because I love that kind of that horizontal scales, what the cloud's all about, but when you factor data into it, this is the sweet spot, because this is where, you know, I think it gets really exciting and complicated too, because, you know, data's got, can get unwieldy pretty quickly. You got state got multiple applications, Thomas, what's your, what can you share the data aspect of this? This is super, super important. >> Absolutely. It's, you know, it's really our core source of differentiation, when you think about it. That's what makes Nutanix special right? In, in the market. When we talk about cloud, right. Actually, if you've been following Nutanix for years, you know, we've been talking a lot about making infrastructure invisible, right? The new way for us to talk about what we're doing, with our vision is, is to make clouds invisible so that in the end, you can focus on your own business, right? So how do you make Cloud invisible? Lots of technology is at the application layer to go and containerize applications, you know, make them portable, modernize them, make them cloud native. That's all fine when you're not talking of state class containers, that the simplest thing to move around. Right. But as we all know, you know, applications end of the day, rely on data and measure the data across all of these different locations. I'm not even going to go seconds. Cause that's almost a given, you're talking about attribution. You can go straight from edge to on-prem to hybrid, to different public cloud regions. You know, how do you go into the key control of that and get consistency of all of this, right? So that's part of it is being aware of where your data is, right? But the other part is that inconsistency of set up data services regardless of where you're running. And so this is something that we look at the cloud platform, where we provide you the cloud infrastructure go and run the applications. But we also built into the cloud platform. You get all of your core data services, whether you have to consume file services, object services, or database services to really support your application. And that will move with your application, that is the key thing here by bringing everything onto the same platform. You now can see all operations, regardless of where you're running the application. The last thing that we're adding, and this is a new offering that we're just launching, which is a service, it's called, delete the dead ends. Which is a solution that gives you visibility and allow you to go and get better governance around all your data, wherever it may live, across on-prem edge and public clouds. That's a big deal again, because to manage it, you first have to make sense of it and get control over it. And that's what data answer's is going to be all about. >> Furrier: You know, one of the things we've we've been reporting on is data is now a competitive advantage, especially when you have workflows involved, um, super important. Um, how do you see customers going to the edge? Because if you have this environment, how does the data equation, Thomas, go to the edge? How do you see that evolving? >> Cornely: So it's yeah. I mean, edge is not one thing. And that's actually the biggest part of the challenge of defining what the edge is depending on the customer that you're working with. But in many cases you get data ingesting or being treated at the edge that you then have to go move to either your private cloud or your public cloud environment to go and basically aggregate it, analyze it and get insights from it. Right? So this is where a lot of our technologies, whether it's, I think the object's offering built in, we'll ask you to go and make the ingest over great distances over the network, right? And then have your common data to actually do an ethics audit over our own object store. Right? Again, announcements, we brought into our storage solutions here, we want to then actually organize it then actually organize it directly onto the objects store solution. Nope. Using things, things like or SG select built into our protocols. So again, make it easy for you to go in ingest anywhere, consolidate your data, and then get value out of it. Using some of the latest announcements on the API forms. >> Furrier: Rajiv databases are still the heart of most applications in the enterprise these days, but databases are not just the data is a lot of different data. Moving around. You have a lot a new data engineering platforms coming in. A lot of customers are scratching their head and, and they want to kind of be, be ready and be ready today. Talk about your view of the database services space and what you guys are doing to help enterprise, operate, manage their databases. >> Mirani: Yeah, it's a super important area, right? I mean, databases are probably the most important workload customers run on premises and pretty close on the public cloud as well. And if you look at it recently, the tooling that's available on premises, fairly traditional, but the clouds, when we integrate innovation, we're going to be looking at things like Amazon's relational database service makes it an order of magnitude simpler for our customers to manage the database. At the same time, also a proliferation of databases and we have the traditional Oracle and SQL server. But if you have open source Mongo, DB, and my SQL, and a lot of post-grads, it's a lot of different kinds of databases that people have to manage. And now it just becomes this cable. I have the spoke tooling for each one of them. So with our Arab product, what we're doing is essentially creating a data management layer, a database management layer that unifies operations across your databases and across locations, public cloud and private clouds. So all the operations that you need, you do, which are very complicated in, in, in, in with traditional tooling now, provisioning of databases backing up and restoring them providing a true time machine capabilities, so you can pull back transactions. We can copy data management for your data first. All of that has been tested in Era for a wide variety of database engines, your choice of database engine at the back end. And so the new capabilities are adding sort of extend that lead that we have in that space. Right? So, so one of the things we announced at .Next is, is, is, is one-click storage scaling. So one of the common problems with databases is as they grow over time, it's not running out of storage capacity. Now re-provisions to storage for a database, migrate all the data where it's weeks and months of look, right? Well, guess what? With Era, you can do that in one click, it uses the underlying AOS scale-out architecture to provision more storage and it does it have zero downtime. So on the fly, you can resize your databases that speed, you're adding some security capabilities. You're adding some capabilities around resilience. Era continues to be a very exciting product for us. And one of the things, one of the real things that we are really excited about is that it can really unify database operations between private and public. So in the future, we can also offer an aversion of Era, which operates on native public cloud instances and really excited about that. >> Furrier: Yeah. And you guys got that two X performance on scaling up databases and analytics. Now the big part point there, since you brought up security, I got to ask you, how are you guys talking about security? Obviously it's embedded in from the beginning. I know you guys continue to talk about that, but talk about, Rajiv, the security on, on that's on everyone's mind. Okay. It goes evolving. You seeing ransomware are continuing to happen more and more and more, and that's just the tip of the iceberg. What do you guys, how are you guys helping customers stay secure? >> Mirani: Security is something that you always have to think about as a defense in depth when it comes to security, right? There's no one product that, that's going to do everything for you. That said, what we are trying to do is to essentially go with the gamut of detection, prevention, and response with our security, and ransom ware is a great example of that, right. We've partnered with Qualys to essentially be able to do a risk assessment of your workloads, to basically be able to look into your workloads, see whether they have been bashed, whether they have any known vulnerabilities and so on. To try and prevent malware from infecting your workloads in the first place, right? So that's, that's the first line of defense. Now not systems will be perfect. Some, some, some, some malware will probably get in anyway But then you detect it, right. We have a database of all the 4,000 ransomware signatures that you can use to prevent ransomware from, uh, detecting ransom ware if it does infect the system. And if that happens, we can prevent it from doing any damage by putting your fire systems and storage into read-only mode, right. We can also prevent lateral spread of, of your ransomware through micro-segmentation. And finally, if you were, if you were to invade, all those defenses that you were actually able to encrypt data on, on, on a filer, we have immutable snapshots, they can recover from those kinds of attacks. So it's really a defense in depth approach. And in keeping with that, you know, we also have a rich ecosystem of partners while this is one of them, but older networks market sector that we work with closely to make sure that our customers have the best tooling around and the simplest way to manage security of their infrastructure. >> Furrier: Well, I got to say, I'm very impressed guys, by the announcements from the team I've been, we've been following Nutanix in the beginning, as you know, and now it's back in the next phase of the inflection point. I mean, looking at my notebook here from the announcements, the VPC virtual networking, DR Observability, zero trust security, workload governance, performance expanded availability, and AWS elastic DR. Okay, we'll get to that in a second, clusters on Azure preview cloud native ecosystem, cloud control plane. I mean, besides all the buzzword bingo, that's going on there, this is cloud, this is a cloud native story. This is distributed computing. This is virtualization, containers, cloud native, kind of all coming together around data. >> Cornely: What you see here is, I mean, it is clear that it is about modern applications, right? And this is about shifting strategy in terms of focusing on the pieces where we're going to be great at. And a lot of these are around data, giving you data services, data governance, not having giving you an invisible platform that can be running in any cloud. And then partnering, right. And this is just recognizing what's going on in the world, right? People want options, customers and options. When it comes to cloud, they want options to where they're running the reports, what options in terms of, whether it be using to build the modern applications. Right? So our big thing here is providing and being the best platform to go and actually support for Devers to come in and build and run their new and modern applications. That means that for us supporting a broad ecosystem of partners, entrepreneur platform, you know, we announced our partnership with Red Hat a couple of months ago, right? And this is going to be a big deal for us because again, we're bringing two leaders in the industry that are eminently complimentary when it comes to providing you a complete stack to go and build, run, and manage your client's applications. When you do that on premises, utilizing like the preferred ATI environment to do that. Using the Red Hat Open Shift, or, you're doing this open to public cloud and again, making it seamless and easy, to move the applications and their supporting data services around, around them that support them, whether they're running on prem in hybrid winter mechanic. So client activity is a big deal, but when it comes to client activity, the way we look at this, it's all about giving customers choice, choice of that from services and choice of infrastructure service. >> Furrier: Yeah. Let's talk to the red hat folks, Rajiv, it's you know, it's, they're an operating system thinking company. You know, you look at the internet now in the cloud and edge, and on-premise, it's essentially an operating system. you need your backup and recovery needs to disaster recovery. You need to have the HCI, you need to have all of these elements part of the system. It's, it's, it's, it's building on top of the existing Nutanix legacy, then the roots and the ecosystem with new stuff. >> Mirani: Right? I mean, it's, in fact, the Red Hat part is a great example of, you know, the perfect marriage, if you will, right? It's, it's, it's the best in class platform for running the cloud-native workloads and the best in class platform with a service offering in there. So two really great companies coming together. So, so really happy that we could get that done. You know, the, the point here is that cloud native applications still need infrastructure to run off, right? And then that infrastructure, if anything, the demands on that and growing it since it's no longer that hail of, I have some box storage, I have some filers and, you know, just don't excite them, set. People are using things like object stores, they're using databases increasingly. They're using the Kafka and Map Reduce and all kinds of data stores out there. And back haul must be great at supporting all of that. And that's where, as Thomas said, earlier, data services, data storage, those are our strengths. So that's certainly a building from platform to platform. And then from there onwards platform services, great to have right out of the pocket. >> Furrier: People still forget this, you know, still hardware and software working together behind the scenes. The old joke we have here on the cube is server less is running on a bunch of servers. So, you know, this is the way that is going. It's really the innovation. This is the infrastructure as code truly. This is what's what's happened is super exciting. Rajiv, Thomas, thank you guys for coming on. Always great to talk to you guys. Congratulations on an amazing platform. You guys are developing. Looks really strong. People are giving it rave reviews and congratulations on, on, on your keynotes. >> Cornely: Thank you for having us >> Okay. This is theCube's coverage of.next global virtual 2021 cube coverage day two keynote review. I'm John Furrier Furrier with the cube. Thanks for watching.