from the silicon angle media office in Boston Massachusetts it's the queue now here's your host still minimun hi and welcome to a special cube conversation here in our Boston area studio I'm Stu minimun and we're getting towards the end of 2019 where we've had a bevy of cloud conferences I've - I've attended Microsoft ignite cube con cloud native con and the big the Super Bowl for industry AWS reinvent is right on the horizon and happy to talk about some of the data protection items related to cloud welcoming back to our program RIA a touch Barrett who is the vice president of marketing in the data protection group at Dell EMC Fria great to see you great to see you Stu nice to be back alright so RIA you know obviously cloud has had such a huge impact on our entire industry you know transforming what's happening there bring us inside how some of those trends are really impacting your organization in your customers yeah definitely I think one of the things that no one would be surprised about is that organizations today are managing seven times the data that they were managing just two years ago so last year in 2018 there was a study done by Vanson Bourne and analyst firm it's called the global data protection index study where they surveyed over 2,200 IT decision-makers and they asked specifically about their data protection challenges one interesting data point is more than 76 percent of the surveyed had placed some sort of data disruption in the last 12 month the preceding 12 months before the survey and 30 close to 30 percent are twenty seven to be exact had lost data costing upwards of millions based on that disruption so before you even get into some of the market trends that's complicating protection I think a lot of customers are still very challenged with their data protection just in any regular environment now the challenge are on data protection and even more broadly data management because again there's the 80/20 rule a lot of your data is actually in the tertiary secondary copies of your data it's getting more complex so a couple of big trends that you and I talk about all the time data growth we kind of talked about that data distribution data is more distributed than ever you have it across multiple clouds you have data hungry technologies like artificial intelligence and machine learning that's basically generating data volumes that's unprecedented and that will be generating data volumes that are unprecedented and obvious and some of these technologies are actually also fueling data growth at the edge so I think that I saw a number or I think Michael Dell was talking about how the data at the edge is actually going to surpass data in all of the clouds combined in the near future then you have application transformation so that's where cloud really comes in a lot of our customers are speeding their time to market and their exchanges and interactions with their customers by really transforming their application development and using cloud native you know application deployment to really fuel how they're how they're developing apps and that's requiring new ways of data protection then you bring into effect all the regulatory rules there's one coming up very shortly I think in January so you have increasing governmental regulations you have increasing privacy laws and and mandates so again data protection is getting into this area where you would say it's in the eye of the storm yeah so many challenges what we've really loved to document over the last few years is the opportunity around data your business is creating new business value creating new lines of business and really extracting information use the word information even you know we've really defined is what defines a company that has successfully gone through digital transformation is it as data that is driving decisions and companies there so you've talked to a lot of customers you've got some survey data or you bring us inside you know what are some of those leading-edge customers what differentiates kind of the leaders and ones that become winners in this world compared to before data was at the center of what they were doing absolutely three the power of three again I think the the companies that are really doing things well or have seem to have a handle around their ever-changing data protection needs are doing have three things in common I think the first thing is pretty evident and you talk to it just now Stu they value data they see data as capital so the amount of attention they give to data is really significantly different than a lot of the other companies so they really ranked when they talked about how they see data as the most important capital you know one of the most important capitals in their in their environment they looked at productivity apps as a significant area of importance they looked at AI machine learning business intelligence and analytics as some of the most critical applications including the new cloud native applications they are gaining significant importance in the eyes of these companies so first and foremost they really value data and they want to make sure that they are protecting it in a way that really meets what they need to the second thing that's really interesting that they're doing is they're investing in a single vendor for all of their data protection needs again this is based on the global data protection index study of the 2,200 IT decision makers and GDP I found that companies that are using at least two vendors are 35 percent more likely to experience some sort of disruption and when they talk about disruption they talked about downtime ransomware and they talked about data loss as the number most frequently cited disruptions in their environment and multiple vendor solutions really really lead to increased complexity there's just more touch points disparate management tools especially when you're in a recovery type situation it just adds a lot of complexity to it including service and support experience that you're going to get from multiple vendors so again investing in a single solution across a very diverse portfolio of application deployment choices physical virtual multi-cloud including extent to cloud use cases as well as cloud native protection really makes sense from core to edge to cloud and I think it will increase decrease the complexity as well as minimize the downtime associated with any type of disruption so that's the second trend so we talked about they value data the second one was that they really have investing in a single partner in their data protection solutions the other one is that they prioritize the third one they have some fundamental needs that they prioritize for their multi cloud so they prioritize scale efficiency as well as ease of management for their multi cloud data protection needs so while cloud computing gives us a lot of flexibility agility it can also bring with it complexity unknown costs and increased risk if not managed appropriately and if this extends to your data protection environment so you need data protection solutions that basically can manage that are easy to scale easy to deploy and deliver efficiency and resiliency across this multi cloud environment so those are the three things that are really doing differently still all right yes so many so many things that customers need to think about now living in that multi cloud world cloud native infiltrating the application environment so as we look forward to 2020 here what are those new requirements so you know what a customers need to really think about when they're they're shaping the future of building their environments yeah that's that's a great question and all of the new requirements start with the fundamentals if you don't have the fundamentals and your requirements will fall short and if anything the fundamentals are becoming more and more critical so we already talked about what those companies that are doing well really do differently so they value scale efficiency performance and when they look at those environments they look at it across a distributed deployment model so you're talking about global scale performance at a global level you know if efficiency across the cloud as well as the cloud resources that you're utilizing so if when you talk about efficiency and performance and scale it takes on a brand-new meaning in the new set of requirements and then there's some real new new requirements so for protection we're seeing protection for cloud native applications so we were at kubernetes and we had our kubernetes cube con and we were showcasing our container data protection kubernetes container data protection so we're doing a tech preview of that that got really well received because a lot of companies are struggling with how they're going to be protecting containers and then you have protection for modern apps SAS based applications MongoDB cloud era type applications that now need protection so it used to be a wide range of different applications now there's new modern apps that need the same level of protection and they have new requirements one of the last ones is again protection of traditional because you're going to still have a big traditional deployment and cloud native applications at what we're calling global scale so what does global scale mean it means you have visibility and reporting to ensure protection across health compliance efficiency across core edge and multi cloud right those are going to be some of the new requirements and then data reuse is another one that we see coming up more and more so there's so much investment in making sure your data is protected and companies want to actually get additional value out of their protection data and they want to drive that value through innovation through being able to leverage that data for app dev and test analytics type work so really they want to be able to do that on their secondary and tertiary copies so that's another set new set of requirements that we're seeing so it starts with the fundamentals and then you need to be able to scale and drive these new requirements yeah absolutely in many ways some of these requirements echo what we had in the past you know go back 20 years ago was spreading a crawl you know mainframe UNIX and Linux and Windows and now it's multi cloud and SAS and hybrid environments so really exciting stuff you know your team you know just give us a look for 2020 you know you know seeing Dell EMC show up not only at of course Dell technology's world but you know cube Colin and reinvent and some of these cloud shows yeah yes more and more Dell to be announced I'll tech cloud last year so it's a big focus for the company what we're doing in partnership with VMware so there's a lot of exciting things that are happening and data protection is really becoming critical to all of these conversations so it's going to be a very exciting year I think it's going to be a defining year for us next year and you're gonna see innovation like you've never seen before from Dell EMC all right exciting stuff definitely so much opportunity innovation happen in the clouds Rhea thank you so much for the updates looking forward to seeing the team with lots of you know over 50,000 of everybody's friends in Las Vegas for AWS thank you thanks for having us - all right be sure to check out the cube net for all of the AWS reinvent content as well as all the other shows we've done this year and look forward to 2020 also I'm Stu minimun thanks for watching the Q

>> Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE, covering Dell Technologies World 2019. Brought to you by Dell Technologies and its ecosystem partners. >> Hey, welcome back to Las Vegas. Lisa Martin with Dave Vellante of theCUBE on our second day of wall-to-wall coverage of Dell Technologies World 2019, and we're welcoming one our guests back to theCUBE. We've got Rüya Barrett, VP of product marketing from the Data Protection Division. Rüya, it's great to have you back on the program. >> Great to be here, thank you for having us. >> And from Under Armor, a brand everybody knows, Nick Hennessy, Senior Manager, Compute and Storage. Nick, welcome, it's great to have you here. >> Great, thank you guys very much. >> So Rüya, we'll start with you. We've had, this is, you can hear all the energy behind us. And if you can hear dogs barking, by the way, that's normal. We've got some dogs next to our-- Lots of energy yesterday and today. Everything about data as this asset, and I think Michael said yesterday, that it's inexhaustible. You guys did an interesting recent survey with over 2,000 IT decision makers. With respect to data and getting their hands on it, what are some of the really interesting things that you've learned about that? >> Yeah, there were some really great takeaways. Great question. One, it's not a surprise to anyone, People have more data than ever to manage. There was over 586% growth in the last two years in terms of how much data on the average customers are managing. So that's a given, not a big surprise. One of the key things that we saw was that they value data. These people surveyed value data more than ever. So it was 96% value data more than they ever did, and 36% of them have already started monetizing data. So it's critical for accounts now, and one of the issues that they brought up for not being able to recover data, around data protection, was that if they can't recover data, they have new concerns now. Loss of opportunity, loss of bringing products to market, loss of competitive advantage, which are issues that we have never heard before because this is the third time we did the survey. We did it first in 2014, 2016, and we just did the 2018 survey. So those were some of the key really big takeaways for me from that survey that we did. >> So if they value it, they've got to protect it. >> Yeah. >> Alright, so Nick, Under Armour, a brand I mentioned everybody knows and wears. You guys have a great brand reputation. And you have some great brand ambassadors. I've got to mention Steph Curry. We have established Nick as a Lakers fan. And I have to point out, Dave, that you're wearing a Warriors colored tie today. Just got to say. >> I won't be if the Celtics make it to the finals though. >> But also Tom Brady's a brand ambassador. We've got Tommy boy covered, Lindsey Vonn. So you've got this great brand of reputation. How does Under Armour, to Rüya's point, value that data and leverage that data to keep and grow that brand reputation? >> Well, you know one of the things about data is, at Under Armour, we call the data is the new gold. So to us, it's very important, especially to our consumers, stuff that we're gathering at the retail stores, and kind of tracking all that stuff. So in order for us to protect that data, we're using Dell Technologies as sweeter products. And it's been working out great for us. >> So paint a picture, Nick, what are you protecting? What's the infrastructure look like, the applications, I know big SAP shop. But what's it look like, what are you protecting? >> So in terms of data, we're protecting over a thousand virtual machines, Two plus petabytes of data, everything in our five regional hubs. So it's quite a bit, it's quite a chore, especially for a small team like we have. >> So you mentioned data is the new gold. I have this idea that it's even more valuable than gold 'cause you can only use gold once. You can't spend it multiple places, data. And I think, correct me if I'm wrong, but Under Armour's ascendancy really coincided with strong technology ethos, very strong use of data, understanding of customers, and technology of sports clothing. So how are you using data to drive competitive advantage? >> Yeah, so very interesting. The brand and the culture is very infectious. So it's like, rah rah, let's go out and get it. That works into how we work IT in our everyday lives. So we kind of take that and kind of run with it. >> So what were you doing before you guys started working with Dell EMC? Talk to us about some of the challenges that you faced before you were using a different solution, so some of those opportunity costs that Rüya mentioned, in terms of if we can't monetize this, we're going to miss opportunities to identify new products our customers want, bring it to market. Walk us through your journey. >> Yeah, so I joined Under Armour about four years ago. And we really set the foundation with our three-year road map. Year one, build the foundation. It was really aligning what we were going to do, right, aligning with Dell Technologies, we're using all of your products. Year two was really architecting the future. And that's where things such as data protection really helped us out. We needed stuff that was easy to deploy, things that, for a small team to manage, that we don't have to think about it. We can sleep easy at night. It really aligned with our road map. >> So historically, data protection has been insurance. Rüya, you and I have talked about this for a long long time. Nobody likes to buy insurance, but you got to do it. Are you trying to move beyond that sort of one use case equation into new areas of value, whether it's compliance, whether it's data analytics. Are you able to use the corpus of data that you're protecting, and the management of that data in new ways? And if so, how? >> Yeah, in terms of the management for our small teams, we need something really easy. But security always comes to mind, so that's built into the product as well. But things moving to the cloud, scalability, things that we want to do in the future, we're really setting that up now. And us doing a huge storage refresh a couple months ago, we really flattened out, and we're using all brand new products. Now we're ready to scale the cloud. >> Rüya, you say that in the customer base, that people are trying to move beyond just straight back-up. >> Definitely. >> It's becoming increasingly new world, digital transformation, hybrid clouds. What are you seeing? >> Oh my god, yeah there's a ton of demand right now for customers to be able to leverage data, regardless of where it lives. So primary data, secondary data, tertiary copies, cloud data. How do you really start gaining business insights regardless of where data is? And how do you make sure that it's constantly recoverable under any circumstance. So one of the other things that we found in that study, again, is that there's new threats. So cyber recovery has become, and ransomware, and cyber recovery has become such a foundational consideration for customers. Being able to also spin up VMs regardless instantly. We just announced the X400 PowerProtect, which is very exciting and was part of today's announcement. It's all flash, and the reason it's all flash is because the use cases such as data reuse, app test and development, being able to test disaster recovery scenarios or cyber recovery scenarios real time, these are all critical use cases that you couldn't imagine doing years ago on your protection data. So we're really excited about both the PowerProtect announcement, as well as the Integrated Data Protection Appliance announcement. So you and I, Dave, have talked a lot about the Integrated Data Protection Appliance and simplicity and efficiency and breadth of coverage and cloud capabilities. Under Armour actually is a big proponent. They use cloud very prolifically, in terms of their IT environment. And IDPA really fit that need for them, in terms of being able to really drive costs out of their environment through efficiency, have that protection performance, just the foundational capabilities, yet still be able to offer some of those new innovation and the cloud capabilities, as well as automation. >> Alright, so we've heard from the marketing pro. Nick, now we got to hear from the customer. I heard simple, efficient, so how simple, how efficient, how do you measure these things? How does it compare with other products that you've looked at? >> Well, the product that we had before, we used Avamar Data Domain, and the problem that we had with it, it was decentralized. So we were managing a regional hub separately. So by refreshing, as we did, it got very simple. Now we have a centralized management. We were able to reduce 40 to 1 ratio. We're getting reductions, before we were getting 92 to 93%. Now we're getting 98, 99%. More importantly, for me, reporting. So able to produce those reports, we didn't have that before, so it's been really great. >> And how do those internal benefits that you talked about manifest out through the organization and really drive, like we talked about earlier, brand reputation or Under Armour being able to use that valuable data to identify new insights and act on the new product streams to delight, say, Tom Brady, for example. >> Well not only does it make-- >> You know he cares. (laughing) >> We certainly care about Tom Brady. >> I know! >> It makes my life a lot easier, right? So I'm able to take this data, it allows me to think, it allows the teams to be agile. Can you use that data to promote other projects, other ideas, things that we really want to do in the future to kind of push the brand even farther. >> When you guys meet privately, what kind of things, Nick, do you ask Rüya and her team at Dell EMC to do that will make your life easier? >> Quite honestly, the Dell team that we work with is wonderful. Really, we ask for a partner, someone that works with us, someone that understands us, understands our pain and is in there with us, so that we can really work on solutions together. >> Okay, obvious question, is that why you work with these guys? 'Cause of the strong partnership? Two part question, and what about the product? Is the product in your opinion, based on what you've evaluated, best of breed relative to other competitive products that are out there. >> Yeah, we did look at some other competitor products. We believe that it is best of breed. And that's why we chose to partner with Dell Technologies. >> So a lot of news yesterday and today, everything around multi-cloud. Customers are in this multi-cloud world for a variety of reasons. With the partnership that you've established with Dell Technologies and Rüya's group, what are some of the things that you've heard from Michael, from Pat, from John, Jeff, that really resonated with you that, ah, Dell Technologies is listening to customers like Under Armour and others as they're developing, helping you to really tackle this multi-cloud world with a lot of success. >> Yeah, so one of the things that was really exciting was part of the keynote yesterday with the SDDC. You can spin up a data center at the click of a button nowadays, and that resonates with us because it's going to make our lives really easy. We're going to be more agile. We can speed up and really take the brand farther. >> So you mentioned cloud before. I think Rüya said you've got multiple clouds. You have multiple clouds, is that right? >> We have a hybrid cloud infrastructure. >> So you've got multiple public clouds, is that correct? Obviously. >> Yes. >> You've got SAS, you've got on-prem stuff, and you try to make them all look the same, substantially similar from a control plan standpoint? >> We try. (laughs) >> It's a journey. >> Yes. >> I get that. But there's also the operating model. And I want to follow up with, are you enabling, whether it's DBAs or application owners, to do their own back-ups, do their own recoveries, do their own analytics, et cetera. Is that where you're headed, are you there today? Is it something that you don't want to do? Can you elaborate? >> That's the idea is to try and make everyone's life a lot easier. And being part of the Compute and Storage team, we're really stuck in the middle of all teams. Applications teams come to us. Sequel teams come to us, networking teams. So we really have a lot of responsibility on our plate. In order to make our lives simpler, we have to enable all these teams to do it themselves, and that's really where we're headed. >> Well, great stuff guys. Nick, Rüya, thank you so much for joining Dave and me on the program this afternoon. And go Warriors. >> Ahh. >> I said it. (laughs) >> For Dave Vellante, who again is wearing a Warriors colored tie. I'm Lisa Martin, you're watching theCUBE live from Las Vegas. Okay. >> I do. >> Alright. >> I like the Warriors. >> Alright, good, see and I mentioned Tom Brady-- >> I like them a lot better than the Lakers, sorry Nick. I can't get over that. >> I'm not sorry. I was saying, we're at VM (laughs). No, we're not at VM World, we're at Dell Technologies World. Oh my goodness, Lisa Martin for Dave Vellante, thanks for watching. (electronic music)

>>Good morning, welcome to the cubes coverage of Qube con and cloud native con 21 live from Los Angeles. Lisa Martin, here with Dave Nicholson. David's great to be in person with other humans at this conference. Finally, I can't believe >>You're arms length away. It's unreal. >>I know, and they checked backs cards. So everybody's here is nice and safe. We're excited to welcome kingdom Barrett to the program, flux, maintainer and open source support engineer at we works. He came to him. Welcome to the program. >>Oh, thank you for having me on today. >>So let's talk about flux. This is a CNCF incubating project. I saw catalyze as adopt talk to us about flux and its evolution. >>Uh, so flex is, uh, uh, just got into its second version a while ago. We've been, uh, working on, um, uh, we're an incubating project and we're going towards graduation at this point. Um, flex has seen a great deal of adoption from, uh, infant cloud infrastructure vendors in particular, uh, like Microsoft and Amazon and VMware, all building products on, um, flux, uh, the latest version of flux. And, uh, we've heard, uh, from companies like Alibaba and state farm. We had a, uh, uh, conference, uh, at a co-hosted event earlier on Tuesday called get-ups con, uh, where we presented all about get ops, which is the technology, uh, guiding, uh, set of principles that underlies flux. And, uh, there are new adopters, um, all, all every day, including, uh, the department of defense, uh, who has a hundred thousand developers. Um, it's, it's, it's very successful project at this point, who are the >>Key users of flux flux? >>Excuse me. The key users of flux are, uh, probably, uh, application developers and infrastructure engineers, and platform support folks. So a pretty broad spectrum of people. >>And you've got some news at the event. >>Yeah, we actually, uh, we have a, uh, ecosystem event that's coming up, um, on October 20th, uh, it's free virtual event. Uh, folks can join us to hear from these companies. We have people from high level, uh, CTOs and GMs, uh, from companies like Microsoft, Amazon VMware, uh, we've worked D two IQ, um, that are, uh, going to be speaking, uh, about their, uh, products that you can buy from their cloud vendor, uh, that, uh, are based on flux. Uh, so, so that's a milestone for us. That's a major milestone. These are large vendors, um, major cloud vendors that have decided that they trust, uh, flux with their customers workloads. And it's, it's the way that they want to push get ups. Great >>Validation. Yeah. >>So give us an example, just digging in a little bit on flux and get ops. What are some of the things that flux either enforces or enables or validates? What, how would you describe the flux get ops relationship? >>So the first to get ops principles is declarative infrastructure and that's, uh, that's something that people who are using Kubernetes are already very familiar with. Um, flux has a basic itself, or, or I guess spawned, uh, maybe is a better way to say it. Uh, this, um, uh, whole get ops working group, that's just defined the principles. There's four of them in the formal definition. That's just been promoted to a 1.0 and, uh, the get ups working group, publish, publish this at, uh, open get-ups dot dev where you can read all four. And, um, it's great copy site. If you're not really familiar with get ops, you can, you can read all four, but, uh, the other, uh, the second one I would have mentioned is, uh, version storage is, is, uh, it's called get ups and get as a version store. So it's a good for, um, disaster recovery. >>Uh, and, uh, if you have an issue with a new release, if you're, uh, pushing changes frequently, that's, you know, more than likely you will have issues from time to time. Uh, you can roll back with, get ups because everything is version. Um, and, uh, you can do those releases rapidly because the deployment is automatic, um, and it's continuously reconciling. So those are the four principles of get ups. Uh, and they're, they're not exactly prescriptive. You don't have to adopt them all at once. You can pick and choose where you want to get started. Um, but that's what, uh, is underneath flux. >>How do you help customers pick and choose based on what are some of the key criteria that you would advise them on? >>We would advise them to try to follow all of those principles, because that's what you get out of the box with fluxes is a solution that does those things. But if there is one of those things that gets in a way, um, there's also the concept of a closed loop that is, um, sometimes debated as whether it should be part of the get ops principles or not. Um, that just means that, uh, when you use get-ups the only changes that go to your infrastructure are coming through get-ups. Uh, so you don't have someone coming in and using the back door. Um, it all goes through get, uh, w when you want to make a change to your cluster or your application, you push it to get the automation takes over from there and, um, and makes, uh, developers and platform engineers jobs a lot easier. And it makes it easier for them to collaborate with each other, >>Of course, productivity. You mentioned AWS, Microsoft, VMware, uh, all working with you to deliver, get ups to enterprise customers. Talk to me about some of the benefits in it for these big guys. I mean, that's great validation, but what's in it for AWS and VMware and Microsoft, for example, business outcome wise. >>Well, uh, one of the things that we've been promoting and since June is a flex has been, uh, uh, there's an API underneath, that's called the get ops toolkit. This is, uh, if you're building a platform for platforms like these cloud vendors are, um, we announced that fluxes APRs are officially stable. So that means that it's safe for them to build on top of, and they can, uh, go ahead and build things and not worry that we're going to pull the rug out from under them. So that's one of the major vendors, uh, one of the major, uh, uh, vendor benefits and, um, uh, we've, we've also added a recent improvement, uh, uh, called service side apply that, uh, will improve performance. Uh, we reduced the number of, um, API calls, but also for, for, uh, users, it makes things a lot easier because they don't have to write explicitly health checks on everything. Uh, it's possible for them to say, we'd like to see everything is healthy, and it's a one-line addition, that's it? >>So, you know, there's been a lot of discussion from a lot of different angles of the subject of security, uh, in this space. Um, how does this, how does this dovetail with that? A lot of discussion specifically about software supply chain security. Now this is more in the operations space. How do, how do those come together? Do you have any thoughts on security? >>Well, flux is built for security first. Um, there are a lot of products out there that, uh, will shell out to other tools and, and that's a potential vulnerability and flux does not do that. Uh, we've recently undergone a security audit, which we're waiting for the results and the report over, but this is part of our progress towards the CNCF graduated status. Um, and, uh, we've, we've liked what we've seen and preliminary results. Uh, we've, we've prepared for the security audit on knowing that it was coming and, uh, uh, flexes, uh, uh, designed for security first. Uh, you're able to verify that the commits that you're applying to your cluster are signed and actually come from a valid author who is, uh, permitted to make changes to the cluster and, uh, get ops itself is, is this, uh, model of operations by poll requests. So, um, you, you have an opportunity to make sure that your changes are, uh, appropriately reviewed before they get applied. >>Got it. So you had a session at coupon this week. Talk to me a little bit about that. What were like the top three takeaways, and maybe even share with us some of the feedback that you got from the audience? >>Um, so, uh, the session was about Jenkins and get ups or Jenkins and flux. And the, um, the main idea is that when you use flux, flux is a tool for delivery. So you've heard maybe of CIC, D C I N C D are separate influx. We consider these as two separate jobs that should not cross over. And, uh, when, when, uh, you do that. So the talk is about Jenkins and flux. Jenkins is a very popular CII solution and the messages, uh, you don't have to abandon, if you've made a large infrastructure investment in a CII solution, you don't have to abandon your Jenkins or your GitHub actions or, or whatever other CII solution you're using to build and test images. Uh, you can take it with you and adopt get ups. >>Um, so there's compatibility there and, and usability familiarity for the audience, the users. Yeah. What was some of the feedback that they provided to you? Um, were they surprised by that? Happy about that? >>Well, and talk to us a little bit fast paced. Uh, we'll put it in the advanced CIC D track. I covered a lot of ground in that talk, and I hope to go back and cover things in a little bit smaller steps. Um, I tried to show as many of the features of Fluxus as I could. Uh, and, and so one of the feedback that I got was actually, it was a little bit difficult to follow up as, so I'm a new presenter. Um, this is my first year we've worked. I've never presented at CubeCon before. Um, I'm really glad I got the opportunity to be here. This is a great, uh, opportunity to collaborate with other open source teams. And, um, that's, that's, uh, that's the takeaway from me? No. >>So you've got to give a shout out to, uh, to weave works. Absolutely. You know, any, any organization that realizes the benefit of having its folks participating in the community, realizing that it, it helps the community, it helps you, it helps them, you know, that's, that's what we love about, about all of this. >>Yeah. We're, uh, we're really excited to grow adoption for, um, Kubernetes and get ops together. So, >>So I've asked a few people this over the last couple of days, where do you think we are in the peak Kubernetes curve? Are we still just at the very beginning stages of this, of this as a, as a movement? >>Um, certainly we're, um, it's, it's, uh, for, for people who are here at CubeCon, I think we see that, you know, uh, a lot of companies are very successful with Kubernetes, but, um, I come from a university, it, uh, background and I haven't seen a lot of adoption, uh, in, in large enterprise, um, more conservative enterprises, at least in, in my personal experience. And I think that, uh, there is a lot for those places to gain, um, through, through, uh, adopting Kubernetes and get ups together. I think get ops is, uh, we'll provide them with the opportunity to, uh, experience Kubernetes in the best way possible. >>We've seen such acceleration in the last 18, 19 months of digital transformation for companies to survive, to pivot during COVID to survive, doubt to thrive. Do you see that influencing the adoption of Kubernetes and maybe different industries getting more comfortable with leveraging it as a platform? >>Sure. Um, a lot of companies see it as a cost center. And so if you can make it easier or possible to do, uh, operations with fewer people in the loop, um, that, that makes it a cost benefit for a lot of people, but also you need to keep people in the loop. You need to keep the people that you have included and, and be transparent about what infrastructure choices and changes you're making. So, uh, that's one of the things that get ups really helps with >>At transparency is key. One more question for you. Can you share a little bit before we wrap here about the project roadmap and some of the things that are coming down the pike? Yeah. >>So I mentioned a graduation. That's the immediate goal that we're working towards? Uh, most directly, uh, we have, um, grown our, uh, number of integrations pretty significantly. We have an operator how entry in red hat, open shift there's operator hub, where you can go and click to install flux. And that's great. Um, and, uh, we looked forward to, uh, making flux more compatible with more of the tools that you find in the CNCF umbrella. Um, that's, that's what our roadmap is for >>Increasing that compatibility. And one more time mentioned the event, October 20th, I believe he said, let folks know where they can go and find it on the web. Yeah. >>If you're interested in the get ups days.com, it's the get-ups one-stop shop and it's, uh, vendors like AWS and Microsoft and VMware detour IQ. And we've worked, we've all built a flux based solutions, um, for, uh, that are available for sale right now. So if you're, uh, trying to use get-ups and you have one of these vendors as your cloud vendor, um, it seems like a natural fit to try the solution that's out of the box. Uh, but if you need convincing, you get Upstate's dot com, you can go find out more about the event and, uh, we'll hope to see you there. >>I get upstairs.com kingdom. Thank you. You're joining Dave and me on the program, talking to us about flux. Congratulations on its evolution. We look forward to hearing more great things as the years unfold. >>Thank you so much for having me on our pleasure >>For Dave Nicholson. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the kid live from Los Angeles at CubeCon cloud native con 21 stick around Dave and I, and we'll be right back with our next guest.

>> Narrator: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with digital coverage of Dell Technologies World Digital Experience brought to you by Dell Technologies. >> Hi welcome back everybody, Jeff Frick here with theCUBE coming to you from our Palo Alto studios, with our ongoing coverage of the Dell Technology World 2020, the digital experience, we can't be together this year, but we can still get together this way. And we're excited for our very next segment, really talking about one of the big leverage points that the Dell VMware relationship can result in, so we're excited. Joining us our next guest is Guy Bartram, he is the Director of Product Marketing for Cloud Director, for VMware. Guy great to see you, where are you coming in from? >> Thanks for having me on Jeff. >> Where are you coming in from today? (Guy chuckles) >> So this yeah, this London for me, this is from London. >> Excellent, great to see you. >> In the UK. >> And also joining us, Doug Lieberman, he is the Global Solutions Director for Dell Technology, Doug, great to see you, where are you coming in from today? >> Well, thanks for having me, I'm calling in from just outside of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania in the United States. >> Excellent, love Philly's lived there for a couple of years and man, there's some terrific food in that part of the world, I tell yah. So let's get into--- >> You say--- >> Are you Pat's or Geno's. >> Actually I'll eat either one but I think I prefer Pat. >> Okay buddy, I used to get one of each and eat half and half and piss people off that were the purest, but that's a difference--- >> That's the right way to do it. (Jeff and Guy laughs) >> Right, so let's get into it, you know, before we turned on the cameras, you guys were talking about this exciting announcement that you've been working on for a really long time. So before we get kind of into the depths and the importance, why don't we just go ahead and tell us, what is the big announcement that we're sharing today? Go to you Guy. >> And so VMware and Dell really have worked together and we both have partner programs that are focused on service providers, Cloud Service providers, and systems integrators and strategic outsourcers. And what we've done is work together to build a solution that is really targeted towards them in the cloud arena, so taking our cloud capabilities and solutions and optimizing it for cloud providers and doing that through what we call, leveraging our Dell Technologies Cloud Platform and putting VMware Cloud Director on top of that. >> So that's pretty amazing, and really, to you Guy, what does that enable Cloud Service providers to do that they couldn't do so well before? >> It brings a whole lot of benefits to a Cloud Service provider, I mean, for cloud providers, historically they've had to have infrastructure services that've been, you know, quite heavy for them to build, taken a long time to get the market, and really had a high burn and operational costs and this solution VMware Cloud Director on Dell Technologies Cloud Platform is going to bring them the multitenancy aspects of cloud director and all of the speed and efficiencies in application and infrastructure delivery to enable them to address the common need now around hybrid cloud management and hybrid cloud operations. >> And you talked about before, I'm sorry, go ahead, Doug. >> No, I was saying, you know, I think that the big key piece is that, there're special requirements that cloud providers really need from their infrastructure, from their cloud, that makes it special to their business model, and what this aims to do, is to provide those capabilities in a easily consumable and rapid implementation format so that they can get to revenue faster and they can get to higher level services faster. >> It's funny, you talked about getting to revenue faster, back in the day I worked at Intel and Craig Barrett was famous for TTM. TTM, everyone used to think it was time to market bringing a new product to market, and he said, no, no, no, it's time to money, right, how fast can you get operational, so that you can basically get this thing to start generating revenue, I always think of that when you look at seven 37 sitting at a gate, you know, how do you get it operational? So Doug, what were some of those special challenges that they have in their market and how are you helping them solve them? >> So it's a great question, Jeff, as we work with service providers all over the world, they've given us a consistent message, that the days of the value in their service being, how they build the underlying cloud and how they do that orchestration automation are really behind us, right, they're expecting today, an end to end capability delivered as sort of an appliance for that underlying infrastructure for the cloud components, so that they can focus on the higher level services and the things that provide more value and more margin for them, and so, you know, the as a service offerings that run on top of the underlying cloud. And so what this joint solution does is really provide a validated design so that they can redirect their engineering resources from figuring out how to make that base cloud work in a service provider format, with multitenancy, chargeback, showback, portals, et cetera, and get that up and running faster and not have to worry about how to automate all that themselves, so they can focus their engineering efforts on those higher level services that provide greater value to their bottom line, to be honest, >> Great, that's great, and Guy, I want to go back to you, you know, the Cloud Service providers probably don't get as much of publicity as you know, we hear all the time about the big public Cloud Providers, you know, the big three or four or however you want to count them and we hear a lot about data centers and staff migrating between those two, we don't hear a lot of conversation in kind of the hybrid or the multicloud discussion about the role of the smaller Cloud Service providers. So I wonder if you can share a little bit about how they play in the market, you know why this is a really important segment for everyone's, you know, kind of architecture and ability to deliver applications. >> That's great common, I mean, one of the things we tend to call on our partners internally is the fall of mega cloud, that you know you really haven't heard of, there's 4,000 partners in our partner program and all of them are providing very valuable cloud services. They provide cloud services they've in all areas of cloud, so this could be into Azure, Google, AWS or in their own data centers, and many of them have come from infrastructure rich environments or what we call asset heavy environments and delivering services in these environments. The recent kind of drive to cloud adoption and digital transformation has meant that there's been a growing demand for Cloud Service providers to deliver valuable managed services and professional services to help customer do that digital transformation and really help the customer identify, where their customer's workloads, would be best apt and running. And, you know, cloud providers specialize in delivering these services like Doug was saying, they're looking at that higher value and they brought a lot of skills and capability in those areas. >> That's great, 'cause it's really good to keep in mind they pay a really important role in this whole thing. And Doug I want to go back to you in terms of working together with VMware in the solution space, right, so it's one thing to talk about a relationship between two companies, it's one thing to see Michael Dell and Pat Gelsinger on stage together, it's a whole nother deal to get together and put in the investment in these joint solutions. So I wonder if you could share a little bit more color on not only today's announcement, but what this really means for you guys going forward and more importantly, your customers, and ultimately your customer's customers. >> Absolutely, so Dell and VMware are both committed to really driving the success of our Cloud Provider partners all over the world, and to do that, we recognize that there's an additional level of capabilities that we need to bring together and jointly do that. And so we agreed to work together to go build a series of capabilities that are really targeted at going beyond just the basic HCI market and the basic cloud market and extending that for capabilities that are targeted specifically and built specifically for our service providers. And so this solution that we're announcing today is the first step on a journey, but we both committed to and made investments in, continuing that and adding more and more capabilities as we move forward and really addressing that very specific market. And working with our Cloud Service provider partners to figure out what is the next step, what do they need from us, at the end of the day, we're looking to jointly help them be more successful and accelerate their time to market and their go to market capabilities. >> Right, that's great, and Guy back to you, you actually had some numbers, some IDC numbers that you can share in terms of some of the real measurable benefits of this. >> That's right Jeff, yeah, we have, IDC did a recent analysis for us with about 12 partners interviewed across the globe, and some of the results that came back were pretty astounding actually, this pay-for is available on our VCE product page on vmware.com. But just as kind of summarize, you know, we talk about getting to revenue faster, they found that on average service providers were able to onboard customers, i.e migrate them, into their cloud environment around 72% faster, 57% faster delivery of new services and we all know that, you know, portfolio and construction of services takes a long time, but you get business units to buy in to give it support services, so 57% faster delivery of services is incredible. And then, you know, obviously getting to revenue 32% more revenue from VCD services than without VCD and 51% overall more growth with VCD from things like more efficient operations, which are also marked at like 31%. So, you know, significant advantages to having Cloud Director bringing those economies of scale, bringing that capability to migrate from a customer premise into service providers cloud, and then obviously be able to utilize multiple larger clouds across multiple regions. >> That's great, and Doug, I wonder if you could share, are there some specific applications that are driving this more than others, is there any particular kind of subset of the solutions that you can highlight where you're getting the most demand and where you see kind of the both short term opportunity as well as mid and longterm opportunity? >> A great question, I think it really evolves around a couple of different aspects. So one is from a pure security standpoint and things like data sovereignty, we're seeing an increased demand for the service providers that are our partners, as in the ecosystem of cloud, there will always be a role for the hyperscaler clouds as well as the role of these independent Cloud Service providers that are at the next tier down, both for the data sovereignty issues, things like GDPR, but as well as kind of that personal feel, that personal touch and specialty in applications, some of the specific areas we're seeing are things like business process management capabilities, database as a service, VDI as a service, but even more critically things like cyber recovery and backup as a service we're seeing, especially in the current situation that we're in, really an uptick in the cyber attacks and the ransomware, et cetera, and so solutions such as our cyber recovery are critical in those capabilities and those higher level services tied into and integrated with an overall service provider framework are key. And so in the area that we're really seeing uptake are really the business critical mission functions that enterprises are looking to run in a trusted partner's data center, and that's what we're seeing, where we're a lot of traction for this Dell Technologies Cloud Platform, combining VCD and VCF together to give you all those features and enterprise reliability. >> Right, and I didn't ask you Guy kind of the partnership question about having the opportunity to put your capability, you know, on the Dell Cloud Platform, opens up a whole new set of field resources, a whole new set of technical resources, you know, a whole different resources, not that VMware's short on resources by any stretch of the imagination, but it's certainly an additive, you know, kind of one plus one makes three opportunity. >> Yeah, I mean, it's great to be doing this and we've actually already been doing this on a couple of other initiatives, so from my perspective, I, you know, I manage Cloud Director Portfolio and we've already integrated Dell, Data Domain Dell, Avamar backup solutions, Data Protection Suite, into VCD as self service and we've already put in quite a bit of work, working together with Dell on that, as we go forward we're going to be putting more work into supporting VCD on the Dell Technologies Cloud Platform and integrating more services from Dell and from other vendors into the solution as well. So all we want to really provide is the capability for service provider to have the easy to consume hardware model, easy to consume subscription software model, with our program, and then the extensibility of services over and above just the infrastructure layer. So looking at things like object storage, and as Doug said, data protection, migration services, container cluster services, there's a myriad of services that VCD provides today out the box, and then there's the a whole extensibility framework, which we use when we work with partners, like we've done with Dell to deliver things like data protection. >> Yeah, I want to go back to you Doug, in terms of kind of a higher level, this whole transition to as a service, you've been in the business for a long time, you've been in the solutions a long time, but, you know, switching everything to as a service, as often as we can, and as frequently as we can, and as broadly across portfolio is really a terrific response to what the customers now, are looking for. So I'm wondering if you share some color on, you know, this philosophy of trying to get to, as a service, as much as you can, across the broadest solution set as you can. >> Yeah and if you look over the last decade, and decade and a half, there has been this increasing trend to moving to as a service offerings and the public clouds really drove a large part of that, than in tier two service providers around the globe. The key piece especially in the current business model, then going forward is how do you optimize, your CapEx versus OPEX and how do you really leverage the IT infrastructure to the maximum extent possible, based upon current business conditions, and that means the ability to grow and train and the ability to only consume what you need. In the past, when we had traditional data centers, you basically built for the worst case, and so the worst case was you had, an accounting run that happened at the end of the month that required a lot of processing power, then you built to that and that's what you use, and for the rest of the month, it really mostly idle. The cloud model really gives you the ability to A, improve their, or only use what you need and consume when you want to use it, but also adds in really shifting the responsibility for the management and the operations into someone, people who are experts in that area, so that again, you as a business can focus on your mission critical aspects of what you do whether that's developing a drug, building cars, making pizza, whatever it is, really as a service model enables your business to drive their core competency and not have to worry about the IT infrastructure that other people can do more efficiently and with better value than you could do it internally. And all that drive to that as a service model with the additional financial models that really aligned to the business paradigm that really companies are looking for. >> As you're saying that I'm thinking, wow, remember those days when our worst case scenario, was running a big batch load at the end of the month or the end of the quarter, and that would be re-missed, right, we are 2020, we're spread out all over the country and the world on both sides of the Atlantics. If I didn't say something about, you know, kind of the COVID impacts in terms of this accelerate, 'cause we hear it all the time in social media, right, who's driving your digital transformation, is it the CEO, the CIO, of COVID, and we've moved from this kind of light switch moment and then merged to, hey, this is an ongoing thing, and you know, kind of the new normal, is the new normal. And it's really shifted, a lot of people are talking about, you know, kind of shifts in the cloud infrastructure, the direction of the traffic, right, from going now from East to West and it's North to South, 'cause it's going to everybody's home. I wonder, I'll go back to you Guy, in terms of, the response that you've heard from some of your customers, in a response to, you know, kind of A, let's put a stop gap in early March that was interesting, and critical, and done, but now, kind of looking forward as to, you know, kind of a redistribution of workloads and architecture and users and I think Doug talked about security. How are you seeing any kind of ongoing effects and how is this impacting, you know, kind of you go to market and what you guys are bringing to market. >> Yeah, we're definitely seeing a lot of change in the way that service providers are trying to address this now. At the start of COVID, it was really a struggle, I think, for everyone to get the resources that they required to keep customers up from running, a lot of people started re-examining their disaster recovery contingency planning, and realizing that actually, what has happened in the last couple of years is, you know, workloads have exploded, a lot of patient workloads have completely gone through the roof and container workloads have grown drastically, and what's happened is the contingency plans behind all this stuff haven't changed and they just simply can't keep up the dynamic nature of the way we're doing business. Quite simply put technology is outpacing our weight, our ability to deal with that, so, you know, service providers need to provide a platform solution that enables them to be able to orchestrate at scale and enables them to orchestrate securely at scale, and really that means they've got to move away from this is hardware analog and move into virtual resourcing, cloud resource pooling elasticity, and particularly hypothesy. I know VMware we talk a lot about hybrid solutions and multicloud, but it's a reality when you look at where customers are today in their cloud journey, most of them have a footprint in their premise, have a footprint in a cloud provider premise and have multiple footprints in public cloud environments, so they need to have that consistent security model across that, they need to have data contingency and backup solutions, and someone needs to be in that to manage that, and that's where the service providers come in. They need to move away from the kind of infrastructure day to day operations that they were doing before and scale it out to now application protection and application development environments. >> Right, so Doug, I'm going to give you the last word as we wrap up this segment, you know, it's easy for us and pundits and people to write about multicloud and hybrid cloud and all these concepts, you guys actually have to make it work on the ground with real customers and real workloads. So I wonder if you could just kind of, you know, share your perspective, you've been working on this Dell Cloud Platform, you know, kind of how you see this evolving over time, and again, kind of what gets you up in the morning as you look forward as to what this journey is going to be over the next six months, one year, two year, three years down the road. >> Brought a lot of functionality capabilities to the world, right, the ability to consume things as you need them, the ability to really rely on a combined set of clouds and multicloud, and if you look at any enterprise that by any estimate, any company of any size, it's probably got 12, 15 clouds that contain their multicloud between using hyperscalers, tier two service providers, as well as cloud based services like Salesforce.com or Office 365, and you combine all those together and what that provides is a lot of flexibility, a lot of functionality, but also an extreme amount of complexity. And that complexity is really where Dell Technologies Cloud and Dell Technologies Cloud Platform is looking to help and to reduce that complexity, 'cause ultimately a successful enterprise is going to leverage the best from multiple clouds across multiple different implementations in order to provide the end to end IT experience that they need for both their external facing and internal IT operations. And with Dell Technologies Cloud Platform and working with our service providers, what we aim to do is to simplify the implementation of those multiple clouds and how they work together and make it as seamless as possible to shift workloads where they need to be, see your entire virtual enterprise IT environment, no matter where it's running, and to really optimize on your business to understand how you're using cloud, where you're using cloud, and how those clouds work together. And so the integration of all the different features with VMware and Dell bring together that end to end capability to significantly simplify the multicloud experience, and then ultimately our service provider partners, can help you on that journey to provide that management and orchestration across those different clouds and the data transformation, the digital transformation necessary in order to drive success. >> That's great, well, thank you Doug, for putting a nice big bow on it, and congratulations to you both for getting this release out, I know there's a lot of hard work and effort behind it, so it's always kind of good to finally get to expose it to the real world, so thanks for taking a few minutes with us. >> Great, thank you for having us. >> Absolutely. >> Yeah thanks Jeff, thank you. >> All right, he's Guy, he's Doug, I'm Jeff, you're watching theCUBE's continuous coverage of Dell Technologies World 2020, the digital experience. Thanks for watching, we'll see you next time. (soft upbeat music)

from around the globe it's thecube covering space and cyber security symposium 2020 hosted by cal poly hello everyone welcome to the space and cyber security symposium 2020 hosted by cal poly where the intersection of space and security are coming together i'm john furrier your host with thecube here in california i want to welcome our featured guest lieutenant general john f thompson with the united states space force approach to cyber security that's the topic of this session and of course he's the commander of the space and missile system center in los angeles air force base also heading up space force general thank you for coming on really appreciate you kicking this off welcome to the symposium hey so uh thank you very much john for that very kind introduction also uh very much thank you to cal poly uh for this opportunity to speak to this audience today also a special shout out to one of the organizers uh dustin brun for all of his work uh helping uh get us uh to this point uh ladies and gentlemen as uh as uh john mentioned uh i'm jt thompson uh i lead the 6 000 men and women of the united states space forces space and missile system center which is headquartered here at los angeles air force base in el segundo if you're not quite sure where that's at it's about a mile and a half from lax this is our main operating location but we do have a number of other operating locations around the country with about 500 people at kirtland air force base in albuquerque new mexico uh and about another 500 people on the front range of the rockies uh between colorado springs and uh and denver plus a smattering of other much smaller operating locations nationwide uh we're responsible for uh acquiring developing and sustaining the united states space force's critical space assets that includes the satellites in the space layer and also on the ground layer our ground segments to operate those satellites and we also are in charge of procuring launch services for the u.s space force and a number of our critical mission partners across the uh department of defense and the intelligence community um just as a couple of examples of some of the things we do if you're unfamiliar with our work we developed and currently sustained the 31 satellite gps constellation that satellite constellation while originally intended to help with global navigation those gps signals have provided trillions of dollars in unanticipated value to the global economy uh over the past three decades i mean gps is everywhere i think everybody realizes that agriculture banking the stock market the airline industry uh separate and distinct navigation systems it's really pervasive across both the capabilities for our department of defense and capabilities for our economy and and individuals billions of individuals across our country and the planet some of the other work we do for instance in the communications sector uh secure communications satellites that we design and build that link america's sons and daughters serving in the military around the world and really enable real-time support and comms for our deployed forces and those of our allies we also acquire uh infrared missile warning satellites uh that monitor the planet for missile launches and provide advanced warning uh to the u.s homeland and to our allies uh in case some of those missile launches are uh nefarious um on a note that's probably a lot closer to home maybe a lot closer to home than many of us want to think about here in the state of california in 2018 smc jumped through a bunch of red tape and bureaucracy uh to partner with the u.s forest service during the two of the largest wildfires in the state's history the camp and woolsey fires in northern california as those fires spread out of control we created processes on the fly to share data from our missile warning satellites those are satellites that are systems that are purpose built to see heat sources from thousands of miles above the planet and we collaborated with the us forest service so that firefighters on the ground uh could track those fires more in real time and better forecast fires and where they were spreading thereby saving lives and and property by identifying hot spots and flare-ups for firefighters that data that we were able to working with our contractors pass to the u.s forest service and authorities here in california was passed in less than an hour as it was collected to get it into the hands of the emergency responders the first responders as quickly as possible and doing that in an hour greatly surpassed what was available from some of the other assets in the airborne and ground-based fire spotters it was really instrumental in fighting those fires and stopping their spread we've continued uh that involvement in recent years using multiple systems to support firefighters across the western u.s this fall as they battled numerous wildfires that unfortunately continue working together with the u.s forest service and with other partners uh we like to make uh we like to think that we made a difference here but there's still a lot more work to go and i think that we should always be asking ourselves uh what else can space data be used for and how can we more rapidly get that space data to uh stakeholders so that they can use it for for purposes of good if you will how else can we protect our nation how else can we protect our friends and allies um i think a major component of the of the discussion that we will have throughout this conference is that the space landscape has changed rapidly and continues to change rapidly um just over the past few years uh john and i were talking before we went live here and 80 nations now have uh space programs 80 nearly 80 space faring nations on the planet um if you just look at one mission area that uh the department of defense is interested in and that's small launch there are currently over a hundred different small launch companies uh within the u.s industrial base vying for commercial dod and civil uh payload capabilities uh mostly to low earth orbit it's it's just truly a remarkable time if you factor in those things like artificial intelligence and machine learning um where we're revolutionary revolutionizing really uh the ways that we generate process and use data i mean it's really remarkable in 2016 so if you think about this four years ago uh nasa estimated that there were 28 terabytes of information transiting their space network each day and that was four years ago um uh obviously we've got a lot of desire to work with a lot of the people in the audience of this congress or in this conference uh we need to work with big thinkers like many of you to answer questions on how best we apply data analytics to extract value and meaning from that data we need new generations of thinkers to help apply cutting edge edge theories of data mining cyber behaviorism and internet of things 2.0 it's just truly a remarkable time uh to be in the space business and the cyber aspects of the states of the space business are truly truly daunting and important to uh to all of us um integrating cyber security into our space systems both commercial and government is a mandate um it's no longer just a nice to have as the us space force and department of the air force leadership has said many times over the past couple of years space is becoming congested and contested and that contested aspect means that we've got to focus on cyber security uh in the same way that the banking industry and cyber commerce focus on uh cyber security day in and day out the value of the data and services provided is really directly tied to the integrity and availability of that data and services from the space layer from the ground control segments associated with it and this value is not just military it's also economic and it's not just american it's also a value for the entire world particularly particularly our allies as we all depend upon space and space systems your neighbors and friends here in california that are employed at the space and missile system center uh work with network defenders we work with our commercial contractors and our systems developers um our international allies and partners to try and build as secure and resilient systems as we can from the ground up that keep the global commons of space free and open for exploration and for commerce um as john and i were talking earlier before we came online there's an aspect of cyber security for space systems especially for some of our legacy systems that's more how do we bolt this on because we fielded those space systems a number of years ago and the the challenges of cyber security in the space domain have grown so we have a part that we have to worry about bolting it on but then we have to worry about building it in as we as we field new systems and build in a flexibility that that realizes that the cyber threat or the cyber security landscape will evolve over time it's not just going to be stagnant there will always be new vulnerabilities and new threat vectors that we always have to look at look uh as secretary barrett who is our secretary of the air force likes to say most americans use space before they have their first cup of coffee in the morning the american way of life really depends on space and as part of the united states space force we work with defense leaders our congress joint and international military teammates and industry to ensure american leadership in space i really thank you for this opportunity to address the audience today john and thanks so much to cal poly for letting me be one of the speakers at this event i really look forward to this for uh several months and so with that i look forward to your questions as we kind of move along here general thank you very much for the awesome uh introductory statement uh for the folks watching on the stream brigadier general carthan is going to be in the chat answering any questions feel free to chat away he's the vice commander of space and missile systems center he'll be available um a couple comments from your keynote before i get to my questions because it just jumped in my head you mentioned the benefits of say space but the fires in california we're living that here that's really real time that's a benefit you also mentioned the ability for more people launching payloads into space and i only imagine moore's law smaller faster cheaper applies to rockets too so i'm imagining you have the benefits of space and you have now more potential objects flying out sanctioned and maybe unsanctioned so you know is it going to be more rules around that i mean this is an interesting question because it's exciting space force but for all the good there is potentially bad out there yeah so i i john i think the uh i think the basics of your question is as space becomes more congested and contested is there a need for more international norms of how satellites fly in space what kind of basic features satellites have to perhaps deorbit themselves what kind of basic protections does do all satellites should all satellites be afforded as part of a peaceful global commons of space i think those are all fantastic questions and i know that u.s and many uh allied policy makers are looking very very hard at those kinds of questions in terms of what are the norms of behavior and how we uh you know how how we field and field is the military term but you know how we uh populate uh using civil or uh commercial terms uh that space layer at different altitudes uh low earth orbit mid mid-earth orbit geosynchronous earth orbit different kinds of orbits uh what the kind of mission areas we accomplish from space that's all things that need to be definitely taken into account as uh as the place gets a little bit not a little bit as the place gets increasingly more popular day in and day out well i'm super excited for space force i know that a new generation of young folks are really interested in it's an emerging changing great space the focus here at this conference is space and cyber security intersection i'd like to get your thoughts on the approach that space force is taking to cyber security and how it impacts our national goals here in the united states yeah yeah so that's a that's a great question john let me let me talk about in two uh two basic ways but number one is and and i know um some people in the audience this might make them a little bit uncomfortable but i have to talk about the threat right um and then relative to that threat i really have to talk about the importance of uh of cyber and specifically cyber security as it relates to that threat um the threats that we face um really represent a new era of warfare and that new era of warfare involves both space and cyber uh we've seen a lot of action in recent months uh from certain countries notably china and russia uh that have threatened what i referred to earlier as the peaceful global commons of space for example uh it through many unclassified sources and media sources everybody should understand that um uh the russians have been testing on orbit uh anti-satellite capabilities it's been very clear if you were following just the week before last the department of defense released its uh 2020 military and security developments involving the people's republic of china um uh and uh it was very clear that china is developing asats electronic jammers directed energy weapons and most relevant to today's discussion offensive cyber uh capabilities there are kinetic threats uh that are very very easy to see but a cyber attack against a critical uh command and control site or against a particular spacecraft could be just as devastating to the system and our war fighters in the case of gps and important to note that that gps system also impacts many civilians who are dependent upon those systems from a first response perspective and emergency services a cyber attack against a ground control site could cause operators to lose control of a spacecraft or an attacker could feed spoofed data to a system to mislead operators so that they send emergency services personnel to the to the wrong address right attacks on spacecraft on orbit whether directly via a network of intrusion or enabled through malware introduced during the systems production uh while we're building the satellite can [ __ ] or corrupt the data denial of service type attacks on our global networks obviously would disrupt our data flow and interfere with ongoing operations and satellite control i mean if gps went down i you know i hesitate to say it this way because we might elicit some screams from the audience but if gps went down a starbucks wouldn't be able to handle your mobile order uber drivers wouldn't be able to find you and domino's certainly certainly wouldn't be able to get there in 30 minutes or less right so with a little bit of tongue-in-cheek there from a military operations perspective it's dead serious um uh we have become accustomed in the commercial world to threats like lance ransomware and malware and those things have unfortunately become commonplace in commercial terrestrial networks and computer systems however what we're seeing is that our adversaries with the increased competition in space these same techniques are being retooled if you will to use against our national security space systems uh day in and day out um as i said during my opening remarks on the importance of cyber the value of these systems is directly tied to their integrity if commanders in the field uh firefighters in california or baristas in in starbucks can't trust the data they see they're receiving then that really harms their decision-making capabilities one of the big trends we've recently seen is the mood move towards proliferated leo uh uh constellations obviously uh spacex's uh starlink uh on the commercial side and on the military side the work that darpa and my organization smc are doing on blackjack and casino as well as some space transport layer constellation work that the space development agency is designing are all really really important types of mesh network systems that will revolutionize how we plan and field warfighting systems and commercial communications and internet providing systems but they're also heavily reliant on cyber security uh we've got to make sure that they are secured to avoid an accident or international damage uh loss of control of these constellations really could be catastrophic from both a mission perspective or from uh you know satellites tumbling out of low earth orbit perspective another trend is introductions in artificial intelligence and machine learning on board spacecraft or at the edge our satellites are really not so much hardware systems with a little software anymore in the commercial sector and in the defense sector they're basically flying boxes full of software right and we need to ensure the data that we're getting out of those flying boxes full of software are helping us base our decisions on accurate data and algorithms govern governing the right actions and that those uh that those systems are impervious to the extent possible uh to nefarious uh modifications so in summation a cyber security is vital element of everything in our national security space goals and i would argue for our national uh goals uh writ large including uh economic and information uh uh dimensions uh the space force leadership at all levels uh from uh some of the brand new second lieutenants that general raymond uh swore into the space force this morning uh ceremonially from the uh air force association's air space and cyberspace conference uh to the various highest levels general raymond uh general d t thompson myself and a number of other senior leaders in this enterprise we've got to make sure that we're all working together to keep cyber security at the forefront of our space systems because it they absolutely depend on it you know you mentioned uh hardware software threats opportunities challenges i want to ask you because you you got me thinking of the minute there around infrastructure i mean we've heard critical infrastructure you know grids here on on earth you're talking about critical infrastructure a redefinition of what critical infrastructure is an extension of what we have so i'd love to get your thoughts about space force's view of that critical infrastructure vis-a-vis the threat vectors because you know the term threat vectors has been kicked around in the cyber space oh yeah threat vectors they're always increasing the surface area well if the surface area is from space it's an unlimited surface area so you got different vectors so you got new critical infrastructure developing real time really fast and you got an expanded threat vector landscape putting that in perspective for the folks that aren't really inside the ropes on these critical issues how would you explain this and how would you talk about those two things well so i tell you um i just like um uh just like uh i'm sure people in the security side or the cyber security side of the business in the banking industry feel they feel like it's uh all possible threat vectors represent a dramatic and protect potentially existential threat to all of the dollars that they have in the banking system to the financial sector on the department of defense side we've got to have sort of the same mindset um that threat vector from to and through space against critical space systems ground segments the launch enterprise or transportation uh to orbit and the various different uh domains within uh within space itself like i mentioned before uh leo mio and geo-based satellites with different orbits all of the different mission areas that are accomplished from space that i mentioned earlier some that i didn't mention like weather tactical or wide band communications uh various new features of space control all of those are things that we have to worry about from a cyber security uh threat perspective and it's a it's a daunting challenge right now right yeah it's awesome and one of the things we've been following on the hardware side here in the on the ground is the supply chain we've seen you know malware being you know really put into really obscure hardware who manufactures it as being outsourced obviously government has restrictions but with the private sector uh you mentioned china and and the us kind of working together across these these peaceful areas but you got to look at the supply chain how does the supply chain the security aspect impact the mission of the u.s space force yeah yeah so so um how about another um just in terms of an example another kind of california-based historical example right um the very first u.s satellite uh explorer one was built by uh the jet propulsion uh laboratory folks uh not far from here in el segundo up in uh up in pasadena um that satellite when it was first built in the late 50s uh weighed a little bit over 30 pounds and i'm sure that each and every part was custom made and definitely made by u.s companies fast forward to today the global supply chain is so tightly coupled and frankly many industries are so specialized almost specialized regionally around the planet we focus every day to guarantee the integrity of every component that we put in our space systems is absolutely critical to the operations of those satellites and we're dependent upon them but it becomes more difficult and more difficult to understand the the heritage if you will of some of the parts that are used the thousands of parts that are used in some of our satellites that are literally school bus sized right the space industry especially uh national security space sector um uh is relatively small compared to other commercial industries and we're moving to towards using more and more parts uh from non-us companies uh cyber security and cyber awareness have to be baked in from the beginning if we're going to be using parts that maybe we don't necessarily um understand 100 percent like an explorer one uh the the lineage of that particular part the environmental difficulties in space are well known the radiation environment the temperature extremes the vacuum those require specialized component and the us military is not the only uh customer in that space in fact we're definitely not the dominant customer uh in space anymore all those factors require us along with our other government partners and many different commercial space organizations to keep a very close eye on our supply chains from a quality perspective a security perspective and availability um there's open source reporting on supply training intrusions from um many different breaches of commercial retailers to the infectious spread of uh you know compromised patches if you will and our adversaries are aware of these techniques as i mentioned earlier with other forms of attack considering our supply chains and development networks really becomes fair game for our adversaries so we have to uh take that threat seriously um between the government and industry sectors here in the u.s we're also working with our industry partners to enact stronger defenses and assess our own vulnerabilities last fall we completed an extensive review of all of our major contracts here at space and missile system center to determine the levels of cyber security requirements we've implemented across our portfolio and it sounds really kind of you know businessy geeky if you will you know hey we looked at our contracts to make sure that we had the right clauses in our contracts to address cyber security as dynamically as we possibly could and so we found ourselves having to add new language to our contracts to require system developers to implement some more advanced uh protective measures in this evolving cyber security environment so that data handling and supply chain perspective uh protections um from contract inception to launch and operations were taken into account uh cyber security really is a key performance parameter for us now it's as important as the the mission performance of the system it's as important as cost it's as important as schedule because if we deliver the perfect system on time and on cost uh it can perform that missile warning or that communications mis mission perfectly but it's not cyber secure if it doesn't have cyber protections built into it or the ability to implement mitigations against cyber uh threats then we've essentially fielded a shoe box in space that doesn't do the k the the war fighter or the nation uh any good um supply chain risk management is a is a major challenge for us uh we're doing a lot to coordinate with our industry partners uh we're all facing it head on uh to try and build secure and trusted components uh that keep our confidence as leaders firefighters and baristas uh as the case may be uh but it is a challenge and we're trying to rise to that challenge you know this so exciting this new area because it really touches everything you know talk about geeking out on on the tech the hardware the systems but also you put your kind of mba hat on you go what's the roi of the extra development and how you how things get built because the always the exciting thing for space geeks is like you're building cool stuff people love it's it's exciting but you still have to build and cyber security has proven that security has to be baked in from the beginning and be thought as a system architecture so you're still building things which means you've got to acquire things you got to acquire parts you got to acquire build software and and sustain it how is security impacting the acquisition and the sustainment of these systems for space yeah from initial development uh through planning for the acquisition design development fielding or production fielding and sustainment it impacts all aspects of of the life cycle john uh we simply especially from the concept of baking in cyber security uh we can't wait until something is built and then try and figure out how to make it cyber secure so we've moved way further uh towards working side by side with our system developers to strengthen cyber security from the very beginning of a system's development cyber security and the resilience associated with it really have to be treated as a key system attribute as i mentioned earlier equivalent with data rates or other metrics of performance we like to talk in uh in the space world about uh mission assurance and mission assurance has always you know sort of taken us as we as we technically geek out right mission assurance has always taken us to the will this system work in space right can it work in a vacuum can it work in you know as it as it uh you know transfers through uh the van allen radiation belt or through the the um the southern hemisphere's electromagnetic anomaly right will it work out in space and now from a resiliency perspective yeah it has to work in space it's got to be functional in space but it's also got to be resistant to these cyber security threats it's it's not just i think uh general dt thompson quoted this term it's not just widget assurance anymore it's mission assurance um uh how does that satellite uh operator that ground control segment operate while under attack so let me break your question a little bit uh just for purposes of discussion into into really two parts uh cyber uh for cyber security for systems that are new and cyber security uh for systems that are in sustainment or kind of old and legacy um obviously there's cyber vulnerabilities that threaten both and we really have to employ different strategies for for defense of of each one for new systems uh we're desperately trying to implement across the department of defense in particular in the space world a kind of a devsecops methodology and practice to delivering software faster and with greater security for our space systems here at smc we have a program called enterprise ground services which is a tool kit basically a collection of tools for common command and control of different satellite systems egs as we call it has an integrated suite for defensive cyber capabilities network operators can use these tools to gain unprecedented insight to data flows and to monitor space network traffic for anomalies or other potential indicators of of bad behavior malicious behavior if you will um uh it's rudimentary at this point but because we're using devsecops and that incremental development approach as we scale it it just becomes more and more capable you know every every product increment that we field here at uh at uh la air force base uh uh we have the united space space forces west coast software factory which we've dubbed kobayashi maru they're using those agile devops uh software development practices uh to deliver uh space awareness software uh to the combined space operations center uh affectionately called the csp that c-spock is just down the road uh from cal poly uh there in san luis obispo at vandenberg air force base they've securely linked the c-spock with other space operation centers around the planet our allies australia canada and the uk uh we're partnering with all of them to enable secure and enhanced combined space operations so lots of new stuff going on as we bake in new development uh capabilities for our our space systems but as i mentioned earlier we've got large constellations on satellite of satellites on orbit right now some of them are well in excess of a decade or more old on orbit and so the design aspects of those satellites are several decades old and so but we still have to worry about them because they're critical to our space capabilities um we've been working with an air force materiel command organization uh called crows which stands for the cyber resiliency office for uh weapon systems to assess all of those legacy platforms from a cyber security perspective and develop defensive strategies and potential hardware and software upgrades to those systems to better enable them to to live through this increasingly cyber security uh concerned era that we currently live in our industry partners have been critical to to both of those different avenues both new systems and legacy systems we're working closely with them to defend and upgrade uh national assets and develop the capabilities to do similar with uh with new national assets coming online the vulnerabilities of our space systems really kind of threaten the way we've done business in the past both militarily and in the case of gps economically the impacts of that cyber security risk are clear in our acquisition and sustainment processes but i've got to tell you it that as the threat vectors change as the vulnerabilities change we've got to be nimble enough agile enough to be able to bounce back and forth we can't just say uh many people in the audience are probably familiar with the rmf or the risk management framework approach to um to reviewing uh the cyber security of a system we can't have program managers and engineers just accomplish an rmf on a system and then hey high five we're all good uh it's a journey not a destination that's cyber security and it's a constant battle rhythm throughout a weapon systems life cycle not just a single event i want to get to this commercial business needs and your needs on the next question but before i go there you mentioned the agile and i see that clearly because when you have accelerated innovation cycles you've got to be faster and we saw this in the computer industry mainframes mini computers and then when you started getting beyond me when the internet hit and pcs came out you saw the big enterprises the banks and and government start to work with startups it used to be a joke in the entrepreneurial circles is that you know there's no way if you're a startup you're ever going to get a contract with a big business enterprise now that used to be for public sector and certainly uh for you guys so as you see startups out there and there's acquisition involved i'm sure would love to love to have a contract with space force there's an roi calculation where if it's in space and you have a sustainment view edit software you might have a new kind of business model that could be attractive to startups could you share your thoughts on the folks who want to be a supplier to you uh whether they're a startup or an existing business that wants to be agile but they might not be that big company we are john that's a fantastic question we are desperately trying to reach out to to those new space advocates to those startups to those um what we sometimes refer to within the department of defense those non-traditional uh defense contractors a couple of things just for uh thinking purposes on some of the things that we're trying to highlight um uh three years ago we created here at uh space and missile system center uh the space enterprise consortium uh to provide a platform uh a contractual vehicle really to enable us to rapidly prototype uh development of space systems and to collaborate uh between the u.s space force uh traditional defense contractors non-traditional vendors like startups and even some academic institutions uh spec as we call it space enterprise consortium uses a specialized contracting tool to get contracts uh awarded quickly many in the audience may be familiar with other transaction agreements and that's what spec is based on and so far in just three years spec has awarded 75 different uh prototyping contracts worth over 800 million dollars with a 36 reduction in time to award and because it's a consortium based competition for um for these kinds of prototyping efforts the barrier to entry for small and non-traditional for startups even for academic institutions to be able to compete for these kinds of prototypings is really lowered right um uh these types of partnerships uh that we've been working through on spec uh have really helped us work with smaller companies who might not have the background or expertise in dealing with the government or in working with cyber security uh for their systems both their developmental systems and the systems that they're designing and trying to build we want to provide ways for companies large and small to partner together and support um uh kind of mutually beneficial uh relationships between all um recently uh at the annual air force association uh conference that i mentioned earlier i moderated a panel with several space industry leaders uh all from big traditional defense contractors by the way and they all stressed the importance of building bridges and partnerships uh between major contractors in the defense industry and new entrants uh and that helps us capture the benefits of speed and agility that come with small companies and startups as well as the expertise and specialized skill sets of some of those uh larger contractors uh that we rely on day in and day out advanced cyber security protections and utilization of secure facilities are just a couple of things that i think we could be prioritizing more so in those collaborations as i mentioned earlier the spec has been very successful in awarding a number of different prototyping contracts and large dollar values and it's just going to get better right there's over 400 members of the space enterprise consortium 80 of them are non-traditional kinds of vendors and we just love working with them another thing that many people in the audience may be familiar with in terms of our outreach to innovators uh if you will and innovators that include uh cyber security experts is our space pitch day events right so we held our first event last november in san francisco uh where we awarded over a two-day period about 46 million dollars to 30 different companies um that had potentially game-changing ideas these were phase two small business innovative research efforts uh that we awarded with cash on the spot uh we're planning on holding our second space pitch day in the spring of 2021. uh we're planning on doing it right here in los angeles uh covent 19 environment permitting um and we think that these are you know fantastic uh uh venues for identifying and working with high-speed startups startups and small businesses who are interested in uh really truly partnering with the us air force it's a as i said before it's a really exciting time to be a part of this business uh and working with the innovation economy uh is something that the department of defense uh really needs to do in that um the innovation that we used to think was ours you know that 80 percent of the industrial-based innovation that came from the department of defense uh the the script has been flipped there and so now more than 70 percent uh particularly in space innovation uh comes from the commercial sector not from uh not from the defense business itself and so um that's a tsunami of uh investment and a tsunami of uh capability and i need to figure out how to get my surfboard out and ride it you know what i mean yeah i mean it's one of those things where the flip the script has been flipped but it's exciting because it's impacting everything are you talking about systems architecture you're talking about software you're talking about a business model you talk about devsecops from a technical perspective but now you have a business model innovation all the theaters of uh are exploding in innovation technical business personnel this brings up the workforce challenge you've got the cyber needs for the u.s space force there's probably a great roi model for new kinds of software development that could be priced into contracts that's a entrepreneurial innovation you got the the business model theater you've got the personnel how does the industry adopt and change you guys are clearly driving this how does the industry adjust to you yeah so um i think a great way to answer that question is to just talk about the kind of people that we're trying to prioritize in the u.s space force from a from an acquisition perspective and in this particular case from a from a cyber security perspective as i mentioned earlier it's the most exciting time to be in space programs uh really since the days of apollo um uh you know just to put it in terms that you know maybe have an impact with the audience uh from 1957 until today approximately 9 000 satellites uh have been launched from the various space faring countries around the planet uh less than two thousand of those nine thousand are still up on orbit and operational and yet in the new space regime um players like spacex have plans to launch you know 12 000 satellites for some of their constellations alone it really is a remarkable time in terms of innovation and fielding of space capabilities and all of those space capabilities whether they're commercial civil or defense are going to require appropriate cyber security uh protections it's just a really exciting time uh to be working in stuff like this and so uh folks like the folks in this audience who have a passion about space and a passion about cyber security are just the kind of people that we want to work with because we need to make sure our systems are are secure and resilient we need folks that have technical and computing expertise engineering skills to be able to design cybersecure systems that can detect and mitigate attacks uh but we also as you alluded to we need people that have that business and um you know business acumen human networking background so that we can launch the startups and work with the non-traditional businesses uh help to bring them on board help to secure both their data and our data and uh and and make sure our processes and systems are are free as much as possible from uh uh from attack um for preparation for for audience members who are young and maybe thinking about getting into this uh trade space um you gotta be smart on digital networking uh you gotta understand basic internet protocols concepts uh programming languages uh database design uh learn what you can from penetration or vulnerability testing and and uh risk assessment i will tell you this and i don't think he will i know he will not mind me telling you this but you've got to be a lifelong learner and so two years ago i'm at home one evening and i get a phone call on my cell phone and it's my boss the commander of air force space command uh general j raymond who is now currently the chief of space operations and he is on temporary duty flying overseas he lands where he's going and he first thing he does when he lands is he calls me and he goes jt um while i was traveling um i noticed that there were e-books available on the commercial airliner i was traveling on and there was an e-book on something called scrumming and agile devsecops and i read it have you read it um and i said no sir but if you tell me what the title of the book is i will read it and so i got to go to my staff meeting um you know the very next week the next time we had a staff meeting and tell everybody in the stab meeting hey if the four star and the three star can read the book about scrumming then i'm pretty sure all of you around this table and all our lieutenants and our captains our gs13s all of our government employees can get smart on uh the scrumming development process and interestingly as another side i had a telephone call with him last year during the holidays where he was trying to take some leave and i said sir what are you up to today are you are you you know making eggnog for the event tonight or whatever and the chief of space operations told me no i'm trying to teach myself python i'm at lesson two and it's not going so well but i'm i'm gonna figure this out and so that kind of thing if the chief of staff or the you know the the the chief of space operations can prioritize scrumming and python language and innovation in his daily schedule then we're definitely looking for other people who can do that and we'll just say lower levels of rank uh throughout our entire space force enterprise um look i i we don't need to need people that can code a satellite from scratch but we need to know we need to have people that have a basic grasp of the programming basics and cyber security requirements and that can turn those things into into meaningful actions obviously in the space domain things like basic physics and orbital mechanics are also important uh space is not an intuitive uh domain so under understanding how things survive uh on orbit is really critical to making the right design and operational decisions and you know i know there's probably a lot because of this conference i know there's a probably a whole lot of high-speed cyber security experts out in the audience and i need those people in the u.s space force the the country is counting on it but i wouldn't discount having people that are just cyber aware or cyber savvy right i have contracting officers and logisticians and program managers and they don't have to be high-end cyber security experts but they have to be aware enough about it to be able to implement cyber security protections um into our space system so the skill set is is really really broad um our adversaries are pouring billions of dollars into uh define designing uh and fielding offensive and destructive space cyber security weapons right they've repeatedly shown really a blatant disregard of safety and international norms for good behavior on orbit and the cyber security aspects of our space systems is really a key battleground going forward so that we can maintain that as i mentioned before peaceful uh global commons of space we really need all hands on deck if you're interested in helping in uniform if you're interested in helping uh not in uniform uh but as a government employee a commercial or civil employee to help us make cyber security more important uh or more cape more able to be developed for our space systems then we'd really love to uh to work with you or have you on the team to build that safe and secure future for our space systems lieutenant general john thompson great insight thank you for sharing all that awesome stories too and motivation for the young next generation the united states space force approach of cyber security really amazing talk thank you for your time final parting question is as you look out and you had your magic wand what's your view for the next few years in terms of things that we could accomplish it's a super exciting time what do you hope for so um um first of all john thanks to you and and thanks to cal poly uh for the invitation and and thanks to everybody for uh for their interest in cyber security especially as it relates to space systems that's here at the conference um uh there's a quote and i'll read it here uh from uh bernard schriever who was the uh the founder if you will uh a legend in uh dod space the founder of the western development division which was a predecessor organization to space and missile systems center general shrever i think captures the essence of what how we see the next couple of years the world has an ample supply of people who can always come up with a dozen good reasons why new ideas will not work and should not be tried but the people who produce progress are breed apart they have the imagination the courage and the persistence to find solutions and so i think if you're hoping that the next few years of space innovation and cyber security innovation are going to be a pony ride at the county fair then perhaps you should look for another line of work because i think the next few years in space and cyber security innovation are going to be more like a rodeo um and a very dynamic rodeo as it goes it is a an awesome privilege to be part of this ecosystem it's really an honor for me to um to be able to play some small role uh in the space ecosystem and trying to improve it uh while i'm trying to improve the chances of uh of the united states of america in a uh in a space war fighting uh uh environment um and so i thank all of you for uh participating today and for this little bit of time that you've allowed me to share with you thank you sir thank you for your leadership and thank you for the for the time for this awesome event space and cyber security symposium 2020 i'm john furrier on behalf of cal poly thanks for watching [Music]

>>Hi, everyone. This is L. A from Visa Research today. I would like to tell you about my work with Salim. Earlier. Took from Boston University about how to construct group with invisible inversion from heart problems on ice Arjuna graphs over I say model E eso Let me start this talk by tell you, uh, what is a group with invisible inversion? A group was invisible Inversion is defined by Hulkenberg and Mona In 2003 It says a representation off a group should satisfy two properties. The first is literally that inversion. It's heart. Namely that giving an including off group element X computing Uh, the including off its inverse his heart. The second is that the composition is still easy, namely given the including off X and Y computing the including off X plus y is easy here we're seeing. Plus, is the group operation. So let me explain this definition by going through our favorite example where discreet log it's hard, namely in the Multiplicity group of finance field. We include a group element A as G today, namely, put it into the exponents and more, uh, cute. So given G energy today finding a it's hard. So this group representation at least satisfy one way, as you mean this great look. It's hard. So let's look at at whether this a group satisfied group was invisible inversion. So it turns out it is not because given due to the A finding G to the minus A, it's still easy. So if we say this is the representation off the universe, then computing this reputation is simple. So this is a no example. Off group was invisible invasion. So the work off Falkenburg and Mona started by looking. How can we find group was invisible inversion? And what are the applications off such a group? Representation, >>It turns out, in their sisters. They did not find any group reputation representation that satisfy this property. But instead they find out that if you can find such a group and then they they have >>a cryptographic applications, namely building direct directed transitive signatures a year later in the work off Iraq at or they also find that if you can have this kind of group with invisible inversion there, you can also construct broadcast encryption with a small overhead, and this is before we know how to construct the broadcast encryption with small overhead over Terry's elliptic curve. Paris. So let's look at another attempt off constructing group with invisible inversion. So instead off defining. Still, let's look at a group where we put >>the including in the exponents and instead of defining due to the minus A as the inversion Let's define due to the one over a as the the inverse off do today. So it turns out you can also define that. And it happens that in many groups, minimally, if you more, uh, some special value a que then given G energy to the A, then competing due to the one over A is also conjectured to be hard. But if you define the group element in the experiment in that way, then multiplication in >>the group exponents is also hard, and so we cannot compose. So this is another no example where group inversion is actually difficult to compute. But composition is difficult to compute, uh, either. So for this kind of group, they cannot use this to build directly transitive signatures or broadcast encryption. So now let's make this attempt, uh, visible by allowing thio. So so thio have ability to compute composition. Namely, we represent the including off A as the follows. So first we help you today >>and then we also give an office Kate the circuit which contains a and n such that I take a group element X, and it can output due to the to a model end. So it turns out giving this circuit you have a feasibility off doing composition and in the work off yamakawa at all to show that if and that the underlying off station is io and assuming and it's an R s a moderately then Thistle >>is actually a good construction off group with invisible university. So technically, assuming I oh, we have already know candidates for group was in physical inversion. Uh, but that work still leaves the open problem off constructing group with invisible inversion without using general purpose sophistication. And in this talk, I would like to talk to tell you about a group was inversion candidate from some new certainly problems And the brief logic off this talk is the following. So elliptical insurgencies can be represented by graph, uh, and the graphs has a ship off volcanoes. For example, this one if you look imagine you're looking for a volcano from top to down and this is the Creator, and this is like the direction off going down the volcano. And arguably this is the reason which attracts me to looking to. I certainly problems, and also I certainly graphs can be an I certainly can be used to represent a group called Idea Class Group >>and then eventually we will find some group >>problems on this graph, which we conjecture to be hard. And they use map thes harness to the harness off inverting group elements in the ideal classroom. So this will be the high level overview off this talk. >>So what are a little bit curve? Assertiveness? So to talk about elliptic curve, I certainly okay spend the whole day talking about its mathematical definition and the many backgrounds off elliptic curve. But today we only have 15 minutes. So instead, let me just to give you a highlight help have overview off what I certain this and I certainly is a mapping from when a little bit of curve to another, and I certainly is an interesting equivalence relation between elliptic curves. It's interesting in its mathematical theory, over a finite field and elliptic curve can be identified by its J environment. And later, >>when we talk about elliptic, curve will think about their represented by their environment, which is a number in the finance field >>and given to elliptic curves and namely, given their environments, we can efficiently decide whether these two groups assertiveness, namely in polynomial time. And given these backgrounds, let me now jump to the exciting volcanoes. So it turns out >>the relation among I certainly occurred. Assertiveness curbs can be represented by the I certainly graphs, which looks like volcanoes. So let's first look at the graph on the left and let's fix a degree for that. I certainly so I certainly has different degrees. So let's for simplicity. Think about their crimes. So let's fix a degree Air say equals 23 >>and we will let each of the note in the graph to represent a different elliptic curve, namely a different Jane environment, and each is represent an air degree by certainly so if you fix the degree ill and I certainly is their religions, uh, they just look like what I said, like what kind of going from top to bottom and if, let's say, fix all the >>elliptic curve on the creator or, in general, all the elliptic curves on the same layer off the volcano, Then you allowed to have different degrees. So this is degree L and this is degree M, etcetera, etcetera. And then the graph actually looks like it's almost fully connected. Eso imagine all of them are connected by different degrees. And the graph structure is actually described not too long ago in the pH. Diseases off Davico Hell in 1996 and later it gets popularized in a paper in 2002 because they say, Hey, this looks like a volcano. So now the I certainly will. Kind of is they used in many reference by according the graph. >>So let me tell you a little bit more about the relation off. I certainly and the idea class group. So the short story is, if you fix a layer on the uncertainty graph, say the creator. So actually, all the notes has a 1 to 1 mapping to the group element in an ideal >>class group. The foremost Siri is the ideal class group acts on the, uh, set off a surgeon is which have the same in the more it is a Marine. But we will not go into their, uh in the talk today. So let me give you a simple example. So this is, ah, concrete representation off an ideal class group off seven group elements. And if we fix a J zero j environment off one off the grade curve, let's say this guy represents the identity in the idea class group. And then we let J one to represent one off the class group elements. Then it's inverse is just going one step back from the origin in the opposite direction S O. This is a very important picture we will use exactly the J environments to represent and the idea class group elements eso This is exactly the reputation we're gonna take, except we're gonna work with over the icy modeling. So after giving some mathematical background off elliptical by certainly in a certain graph now, let's talk about competition of problems >>and before jumping into I say model E, let me start from the, uh, more traditionally studied. I certainly problems over the finite field. The first problem is if I fix a degree, air and I give you a J environment off elliptic curve. Ast one off the note. That's first. Take an easy question. Is it easy to find all off? >>It's certainly neighbors off degree will say there is a polynomial. >>The answer is yes. And the technically there are two different ways. Uh, I will not go to the details off what they are, but what we need to know is they require serving, uh, polynomial off degree or air squares. Let's look at another problem that so imagine I select to random >>curves from an I certainly graph. So think about this. Uncertainty graph is defined over a large field, and they are super polynomial limited graphs off them. I'm choosing to random curves. >>The question is, can you find out an explicit I Certainly between them naming and Emily passed from one to the other. It turns out this >>problem is conjecture to be hard even for quantum computers, and this is exactly what was used in the post to quantum key exchange proposals in those works. So they have different structures could aside the seaside. They're just a different types off in the book is a Marine off the question is off the same nature finding and passed from one curve to the other. So these are not relevant to our work. But I would like to introduce them for for some background, off the history off. I certainly problems, >>So you have a work we need to >>study. I certainly problems over in, I say endogenous. And so the first question is even how to define. And I certainly, uh oh, and I certainly graph over the ring like, uh, over and I say modular. Same. So >>there is a general way off defining it in the special case. So in this talk, I will just talk about the special case because this is easier to understand. So think about I have the have the ability off peaking too. I certainly volcan als over multi and multi cube. That has exactly the same structure. And then I just use a C a c r T composition to stick them together. So namely a J >>zero. The value is the CRT off the J zero over. They're over the small fields P and the Cube and the N S equals to P times Q. And by the way, thes gene variants will be exactly the way to represent an ideal class group off such a size in this example is the ideal class group off, uh, with discriminate minus 250 bucks. Okay, so now let's look at what this magical over this representation. So let's look at back to the problem we start from namely, finding all the insurgents neighbors at this time over. And I see model E eso. I give you the J environment off easier and ask you to find a one off the its neighbors finding the J environment off one off its neighbors. So it turns out, even this problem is hard. And actually, we can prove this problem is as hard as factory and naive. Way off. Explaining off What's going on is that the two methods that work over the finite field that doesn't work anymore, since they both required to solve high degree polynomial model end, and that this is hard where when end is in, I certainly I say modelers. So to be useful for constructing a group off invisible inversion, we actually need to look at this called a joint neighbors. Such problems, namely, if I give you a curve zero, which represents the identity, then another crib, which represents a the group element. Your task is to find its inverse namely one off the E two candidate beneath zero. Yeah, eso it turns out this problem. We also conjectured to it to be hard and we don't know how to base it on how this a factoring, uh, again, the not even reason is the way to solve it over the finite field doesn't work because they both required to solve polynomial off degree higher than one over in i. C model is. And this is exactly the reason that we believe the group inversion is hard over deserve visitation Now. Finally, we also would like to remind the readers that for death according to the definition off group with invisible inversion, we would also like the group elements to be easy to compose. No, that's not. Make another observation that over. If you're finding the joint neighbor off, I certainly off different degree. Say, if I give you a J invent off Iwan and Jane Barrett off you to ask you to find the J environment off the three and they happened to off co prime degree I. Certainly then there is a way to find their joint neighbor because they're cold prime. And there's only one solution to solving the modular polynomial that I haven't defined out. But this is the way we make sure that composition is easy. Normally we output, including that are a cold prime so that they can be composed to summarize that we propose a group candidate group with invisible inversion from any particular I. Certainly it requires a chapter because you need to know the prime factors off. I seem odd early to set up the whole system and generated the including in our me assumption is that certain joint neighbors such problem on the I certainly graphs defined over S a moderately it's hard again group within physical inversion has the application of constructing broadcasting, corruption directed transitive signatures, and it's a very interesting problem to explore

>> Narrator: From around the globe. It's theCUBE covering space in cybersecurity symposium 2020 hosted by Cal Poly. >> Hello, everyone. Welcome to the space and cybersecurity symposium, 2020 hosted by Cal Poly where the intersection of space and security are coming together. I'm John Furrier, your host with theCUBE here in California. I want to welcome our featured guest, Lieutenant General, John F. Thompson with the United States Space Force approach to cybersecurity. That's the topic of this session. And of course he's the commander of the space and missile system center in Los Angeles Air Force Base. Also heading up Space Force. General, thank you for coming on. I really appreciate to you kicking this off. Welcome to the symposium. >> Hey, so thank you very much, John, for that very kind introduction. Also very much thank you to Cal Poly for this opportunity to speak to this audience today. Also a special shout out to one of the organizers, Dustin Debrun, for all of his work, helping get us to this point. Ladies and gentlemen as a John mentioned, I'm JT Thompson. I lead the 6,000 men and women of the United States Space Force's Space and Missile System Center, which is headquartered here at Los Angeles Air Force Base and El Segundo. If you're not quite sure where that's at, it's about a mile and a half from LAX. This is our main operating location, but we do have a number of other operating locations around the country. We're about 500 people at Kirtland Air Force Base in Albuquerque, New Mexico, and an about another 500 people on the front range of the Rockies between Colorado Springs and Denver plus a smattering of other much smaller operating locations nationwide. We're responsible for acquiring, developing and sustaining the United States Space Force's, critical space assets. That includes the satellites in the space layer and also on the ground layer our ground segments to operate those satellites. And we also are in charge of procuring launch services for the US Space Force and a number of our critical mission partners across the Department of Defense and the intelligence community. Just as a couple of examples of some of the things we do, if you're unfamiliar with our work we developed and currently sustain the 31 satellite GPS constellation that satellite constellation, while originally intended to help with global navigation, those GPS signals have provided trillions of dollars in unanticipated value to the global economy over the past three decades. GPS is everywhere. I think everybody realizes that. Agriculture, banking, the stock market, the airline industry, separate and distinct navigation systems. It's really pervasive across both capabilities for our Department of Defense and capabilities for our economy and individuals, billions of individuals across our country and the planet. Some of the other work we do for instance, in the communications sector, secure communications satellites that we designed and build that link America's sons and daughters serving in the military around the world and really enable real time support and comms for our deployed forces. And those of our allies. We also acquire infrared missile warning satellites that monitor the planet for missile launches that provide advanced warning to the US Homeland and to our allies in case some of those missile launches are nefarious. On a note, that's probably a lot closer to home, maybe a lot closer to home than many of us want to think about here in the state of California. In 2018, SMC jumped through a bunch of red tape and bureaucracy to partner with the US Forest Service during two of the largest wildfires in the state's history, the Camp and Woolsey fires in Northern California. As those fires spread out of control, we created processes on the fly to share data from our missile warning satellites. Those are satellites that are systems that are purpose built to see heat sources from thousands of miles above the planet. And we collaborated with the US Forest Service so that firefighters on the ground could track those fires more in real time and better forecast fires and where they were spreading, thereby saving lives and property by identifying hotspots and flareups for firefighters. That data that we were able to working with our contractors pass to the US Forest Service and authorities here in California, was passed in less than an hour as it was collected to get it into the hands of the emergency responders, the first responders as quickly as possible and doing that in an hour greatly surpassed what was available from some of the other assets in the airborne and ground-based fire spotters. It was really instrumental in fighting those fires and stopping their spread. We've continued that involvement in recent years, using multiple systems to support firefighters across the Western US this fall, as they battled numerous wildfires that unfortunately continue. Working together with the US Forest Service and with other partners we'd like to think that we've made a difference here, but there's still a lot more work to go. And I think that we should always be asking ourselves what else can space data be used for and how can we more rapidly get that space data to stakeholders so that they can use it for purposes of good, if you will. How else can we protect our nation? How else can we protect our friends and allies? I think a major component of the discussion that we will have throughout this conference is that the space landscape has changed rapidly and continues to change rapidly. Just over the past few years, John and I were talking before we went live here and 80 nations now have space programs. Nearly 80 space faring nations on the planet. If you just look at one mission area that the Department of Defense is interested in, and that's small launch, there are currently over 100 different small launch companies within the US industrial base vying for commercial DoD and civil payload capabilities, mostly to lower earth orbit. It's truly a remarkable time. If you factor in those things like artificial intelligence and machine learning, where we're revolutionizing really, the ways that we generate process and use data. It's really remarkable. In 2016, so if you think about this four years ago, NASA estimated that there were 28 terabytes of information transiting their space network each day. And that was four years ago. Obviously we've got a lot of desire to work with a lot of the people in the audience in this conference, we need to work with big thinkers, like many of you to answer questions on how best we apply data analytics to extract value and meaning from that data. We need new generations of thinkers to help apply cutting edge theories of data mining, cyber behaviorism, and Internet of Things 2.0, it's just truly a remarkable time to be in the space business and the cyber aspects of the space business are truly, truly daunting and important to all of us. Integrating cyber security into our space systems, both commercial and government is a mandate. it's no longer just a nice to have as the US Space Force and Department of the Air Force leadership has said many times over the past couple of years, space is becoming congested and contested. And that contested aspect means that we've got to focus on cyber security in the same way that the banking industry and cyber commerce focus on cybersecurity day in and day out. The value of the data and services provided is really directly tied to the integrity and availability of that data and services from the space layer, from the ground control segments associated with it. And this value is not just military, it's also economic and it's not just American, it's also a value for the entire world, particularly our allies, as we all depend upon space and space systems. Your neighbors and friends here in California that are employed at the space and missile system center work with network defenders. We work with our commercial contractors and our systems developers, our international allies and partners to try and build as secure and resilient systems as we can from the ground up that keep the global comments of space free and open for exploration and for commerce as John and I were talking earlier, before we came online, there's an aspect of cybersecurity for space systems, especially for some of our legacy systems, that's more, how do we bolt this on? Cause we fielded those space systems a number of years ago, and the challenges of cybersecurity in the space domain have grown. So we have a part that we have to worry about, bolting it on, but then we have to worry about building it in as we field new systems and build in a flexibility that realizes that the cyber threat or the cybersecurity landscape will evolve over time. It's not just going to be stagnant. There will always be new vulnerabilities and new threat vectors that we all have to look at. Look, as Secretary Barrett, who is our secretary of the air force likes to say most Americans use space before they have their first cup of coffee in the morning. The American way of life really depends on space. And as part of the United States Space Force, we work with defense leaders, our Congress joint, and international military teammates and industry to ensure American leadership in space. I really thank you for this opportunity to address the audience today, John, and thanks so much to Cal Poly for letting me be one of the speakers at this event. I've really looked forward to this for several months. And so with that, I look forward to your questions as we kind of move along here. >> General, thank you very much for those awesome introductory statement. For the folks watching on the stream, Brigadier General Carthan's going to be in the chat, answering any questions, feel free to chat away. He's the vice commander of Space and Missile System Center, he'll be available. A couple of comments from your keynote before I get to my questions. Cause it just jumped into my head. You mentioned the benefits of say space with the fires in California. We're living that here. That's really realtime. That's a benefit. You also mentioned the ability for more people launching payloads into space. I'm only imagined Moore's law smaller, faster, cheaper applies to rockets too. So I'm imagining you have the benefits of space and you have now more potential objects flying out sanctioned and maybe unsanctioned. So is it going to be more rules around that? This is an interesting question cause it's exciting Space Force, but for all the good there is potentially bad out there. >> Yeah. So John, I think the basics of your question is as space becomes more congested and contested, is there a need for more international norms of how satellites fly in space? What kind of basic features satellites have to perhaps de orbit themselves? What kind of basic protections should all satellites be afforded as part of a peaceful global commons of space? I think those are all fantastic questions. And I know that US and many allied policy makers are looking very, very hard at those kinds of questions in terms of what are the norms of behavior and how we field, and field as the military term. But how we populate using civil or commercial terms that space layer at different altitudes, lower earth orbit, mid earth orbit, geosynchronous earth orbit, different kinds of orbits, what the kind of mission areas we accomplished from space. That's all things that need to be definitely taken into account as the place gets a little bit, not a little bit as the place gets increasingly more popular day in and day out. >> I'm super excited for Space Force. I know that a new generation of young folks are really interested in it's an emerging, changing great space. The focus here at this conference is space and cybersecurity, the intersection. I'd like to get your thoughts on the approach that a space force is taking to cybersecurity and how it impacts our national goals here in the United States. >> Yeah. So that's a great question John, let me talk about it in two basic ways. At number one is an and I know some people in the audience, this might make them a little bit uncomfortable, but I have to talk about the threat. And then relative to that threat, I really have to talk about the importance of cyber and specifically cyber security, as it relates to that threat. The threats that we face really represented a new era of warfare and that new era of warfare involves both space and cyber. We've seen a lot of action in recent months from certain countries, notably China and Russia that have threatened what I referred to earlier as the peaceful global commons of space. For example, it threw many unclassified sources and media sources. Everybody should understand that the Russians have been testing on orbit anti-satellite capabilities. It's been very clear if you were following just the week before last, the Department of Defense released its 2020 military and security developments involving the People's Republic of China. And it was very clear that China is developing ASATs, electronic jammers, directed energy weapons, and most relevant to today's discussion, offensive cyber capabilities. There are kinetic threats that are very, very easy to see, but a cyber attack against a critical command and control site or against a particular spacecraft could be just as devastating to the system and our war fighters in the case of GPS and important to note that that GPS system also impacts many civilians who are dependent on those systems from a first response perspective and emergency services, a cyber attack against a ground control site could cause operators to lose control of a spacecraft or an attacker could feed spoofed data to assist them to mislead operators so that they sent emergency services personnel to the wrong address. Attacks on spacecraft on orbit, whether directly via a network intrusion or enabled through malware introduced during the system's production while we're building the satellite can cripple or corrupt the data. Denial-of-service type attacks on our global networks obviously would disrupt our data flow and interfere with ongoing operations and satellite control. If GPS went down, I hesitate to say it this way, cause we might elicit some screams from the audience. But if GPS went down a Starbucks, wouldn't be able to handle your mobile order, Uber drivers wouldn't be able to find you. And Domino's certainly wouldn't be able to get there in 30 minutes or less. So with a little bit of tongue in cheek there from a military operations perspective, it's dead serious. We have become accustomed in the commercial world to threats like ransomware and malware. And those things have unfortunately become commonplace in commercial terrestrial networks and computer systems. However, what we're seeing is that our adversaries with the increased competition in space these same techniques are being retooled, if you will, to use against our national security space systems day in and day out. As I said, during my opening remarks on the importance of cyber, the value of these systems is directly tied to their integrity. If commanders in the field, firefighters in California or baristas in Starbucks, can't trust the data they're receiving, then that really harms their decision making capabilities. One of the big trends we've recently seen is the move towards proliferated LEO constellations, obviously Space X's Starlink on the commercial side and on the military side, the work that DARPA and my organization SMC are doing on Blackjack and Casino, as well as some space transport layer constellation work that the space development agency is designing are all really, really important types of mesh network systems that will revolutionaries how we plan and field war fighting systems and commercial communications and internet providing systems. But they're also heavily reliant on cybersecurity. We've got to make sure that they are secured to avoid an accident or international damage. Loss of control of these constellations really could be catastrophic from both a mission perspective or from a satellites tumbling out of low earth orbit perspective. Another trend is introductions in artificial intelligence and machine learning, onboard spacecraft are at the edge. Our satellites are really not so much hardware systems with a little software anymore in the commercial sector and in the defense sector, they're basically flying boxes full of software. And we need to ensure that data that we're getting out of those flying boxes full of software are helping us base our decisions on accurate data and algorithms, governing the right actions and that those systems are impervious to the extent possible to nefarious modifications. So in summation, cybersecurity is a vital element of everything in our national security space goals. And I would argue for our national goals, writ large, including economic and information dimensions, the Space Force leadership at all levels from some of the brand new second lieutenants that general Raymond swore in to the space force this morning, ceremonially from the air force associations, airspace and cyberspace conference to the various highest levels, General Raymond, General DT Thompson, myself, and a number of other senior leaders in this enterprise. We've got to make sure that we're all working together to keep cyber security at the forefront of our space systems cause they absolutely depend on it. >> You mentioned hardware, software threats, opportunities, challenges. I want to ask you because you got me thinking of the minute they're around infrastructure. We've heard critical infrastructure, grids here on earth. You're talking about critical infrastructure, a redefinition of what critical infrastructure is, an extension of what we have. So I'd love to get your thoughts about Space Force's view of that critical infrastructure vis-a-vis the threat vectors, because the term threat vectors has been kicked around in the cyberspace. Oh you have threat vectors. They're always increasing the surface area. If the surface area is from space, it's an unlimited service area. So you got different vectors. So you've got new critical infrastructure developing real time, really fast. And you got an expanded threat vector landscape. Putting that in perspective for the folks that aren't really inside the ropes on these critical issues. How would you explain this and how would you talk about those two things? >> So I tell you, just like, I'm sure people in the security side or the cybersecurity side of the business in the banking industry feel, they feel like it's all possible threat vectors represent a dramatic and protect potentially existential threat to all of the dollars that they have in the banking system, to the financial sector. On the Department of Defense side, we've got to have sort of the same mindset. That threat vector from, to, and through space against critical space systems, ground segments, the launch enterprise, or transportation to orbit and the various different domains within space itself. Like I mentioned before, LEO, MEO and GEO based satellites with different orbits, all of the different mission areas that are accomplished from space that I mentioned earlier, some that I did mention like a weather tactical or wide band communications, various new features of space control. All of those are things that we have to worry about from a cyber security threat perspective. And it's a daunting challenge right now. >> Yeah, that's awesome. And one of the things we've been falling on the hardware side on the ground is the supply chain. We've seen, malware being, really put in a really obscure hardware. Who manufactures it? Is it being outsourced? Obviously government has restrictions, but with the private sector, you mentioned China and the US kind of working together across these peaceful areas. But you got to look at the supply chain. How does the supply chain in the security aspect impact the mission of the US space Force? >> Yeah. Yeah. So how about another, just in terms of an example, another kind of California based historical example. The very first US Satellite, Explorer 1, was built by the jet propulsion laboratory folks, not far from here in El Segundo, up in Pasadena, that satellite, when it was first built in the late 50s weighing a little bit, over 30 pounds. And I'm sure that each and every part was custom made and definitely made by US companies. Fast forward to today. The global supply chain is so tightly coupled, and frankly many industries are so specialized, almost specialized regionally around the planet. We focus every day to guarantee the integrity of every component that we put in our space systems is absolutely critical to the operations of those satellites and we're dependent upon them, but it becomes more difficult and more difficult to understand the heritage, if you will, of some of the parts that are used, the thousands of parts that are used in some of our satellites that are literally school bus sized. The space industry, especially national security space sector is relatively small compared to other commercial industries. And we're moving towards using more and more parts from non US companies. Cybersecurity and cyber awareness have to be baked in from the beginning if we're going to be using parts that maybe we don't necessarily understand 100% like an Explorer one, the lineage of that particular part. The environmental difficulties in space are well known. The radiation environment, the temperature extremes, the vacuum, those require specialized component. And the US military is not the only customer in that space. In fact, we're definitely not the dominant customer in space anymore. All those factors require us along with our other government partners and many different commercial space organizations to keep a very close eye on our supply chains, from a quality perspective, a security perspective and availability. There's open source reporting on supply training intrusions from many different breaches of commercial retailers to the infectious spread of compromised patches, if you will. And our adversaries are aware of these techniques. As I mentioned earlier, with other forms of attack, considering our supply chains and development networks really becomes fair game for our adversaries. So we have to take that threat seriously. Between the government and industry sectors here in the US. We're also working with our industry partners to enact stronger defenses and assess our own vulnerabilities. Last fall, we completed an extensive review of all of our major contracts here at Space and Missile System Center to determine the levels of cyber security requirements we've implemented across our portfolio. And it sounds really kind of businessy geeky, if you will. Hey, we looked at our contracts to make sure that we had the right clauses in our contracts to address cybersecurity as dynamically as we possibly could. And so we found ourselves having to add new language to our contracts, to require system developers, to implement some more advanced protective measures in this evolving cyber security environment. So that data handling and supply chain protections from contract inception to launch and operations were taken into account. Cyber security really is a key performance parameter for us now. Performance of the system, It's as important as cost, it's as important as schedule, because if we deliver the perfect system on time and on cost, it can perform that missile warning or that communications mission perfectly, but it's not cyber secure. If it's doesn't have cyber protections built into it, or the ability to implement mitigations against cyber threats, then we've essentially fielded a shoe box in space that doesn't do the CA the war fighter or the nation any good. Supply chain risk management is a major challenge for us. We're doing a lot to coordinate with our industry partners. We're all facing it head on to try and build secure and trusted components that keep our confidence as leaders, firefighters, and baristas as the case may be. But it is a challenge. And we're trying to rise to that challenge. >> This is so exciting this new area, because it really touches everything. Talk about geeking out on the tech, the hardware, the systems but also you put your kind of MBA hat on you go, what's the ROI of extra development and how things get built. Because the always the exciting thing for space geeks is like, if you're building cool stuff, it's exciting, but you still have to build. And cybersecurity has proven that security has to be baked in from the beginning and be thought as a system architecture. So you're still building things, which means you got to acquire things, you got to acquire parts, you got acquire build software and sustain it. How is security impacting the acquisition and the sustainment of these systems for space? >> Yeah. From initial development, through planning for the acquisition, design, development, our production fielding and sustainment, it impacts all aspects of the life cycle, John. We simply, especially from the concept of baking in cybersecurity, we can't wait until something is built and then try and figure out how to make it cyber secure. So we've moved way further towards working side by side with our system developers to strengthen cybersecurity from the very beginning of a systems development, cyber security, and the resilience associated with it really have to be treated as a key system attribute. As I mentioned earlier, equivalent with data rates or other metrics of performance. We like to talk in the space world about mission assurance and mission assurance has always sort of taken us as we technically geek out. Mission assurance has always taken us to the will this system work in space. Can it work in a vacuum? Can it work in as it transfers through the Van Allen radiation belt or through the Southern hemisphere's electromagnetic anomaly? Will it work out in space? And now from a resiliency perspective, yeah, it has to work in space. It's got to be functional in space, but it's also got to be resistant to these cybersecurity threats. It's not just, I think a General D.T Thompson quoted this term. It's not just widget assurance anymore. It's mission assurance. How does that satellite operator that ground control segment operate while under attack? So let me break your question a little bit, just for purposes of discussion into really two parts, cybersecurity, for systems that are new and cybersecurity for systems that are in sustainment are kind of old and legacy. Obviously there's cyber vulnerabilities that threatened both, and we really have to employ different strategies for defensive of each one. For new systems. We're desperately trying to implement across the Department of Defense and particularly in the space world, a kind of a dev sec ops methodology and practice to delivering software faster and with greater security for our space systems. Here at SMC, we have a program called enterprise ground services, which is a toolkit, basically a collection of tools for common command and control of different satellite systems, EGS as we call it has an integrated suite for defensive cyber capabilities. Network operators can use these tools to gain unprecedented insight to data flows and to monitor space network traffic for anomalies or other potential indicators of a bad behavior, malicious behavior, if you will, it's rudimentary at this point, but because we're using DevSecOps and that incremental development approach, as we scale it, it just becomes more and more capable. Every product increment that we feel. Here at LA Air Force Base, we have the United Space Force's West Coast Software Factory, which we've dubbed the Kobayashi Maru. They're using those agile DevOps software development practices to deliver a space awareness software to the combined space operations center. Affectionately called the CSpock that CSpock is just on the road from Cal Poly there in San Luis Obispo at Vandenberg Air Force Base. They've so securely linked the sea Spock with other space operation centers around the planet, our allies, Australia, Canada, and the UK. We're partnering with all of them to enable secure and enhanced combined space operations. So lots of new stuff going on as we bake in new development capabilities for our space systems. But as I mentioned earlier, we've got large constellations of satellites on orbit right now. Some of them are well in excess of a decade or more or old on orbit. And so the design aspects of those satellites are several decades old. But we still have to worry about them cause they're critical to our space capabilities. We've been working with an air force material command organization called CROWS, which stands for the Cyber Resiliency Office for Weapon Systems to assess all of those legacy platforms from a cyber security perspective and develop defensive strategies and potential hardware and software upgrades to those systems to better enable them to live through this increasingly cybersecurity concerned era that we currently live in. Our industry partners have been critical to both of those different avenues. Both new systems and legacy systems. We're working closely with them to defend and upgrade national assets and develop the capabilities to do similar with new national assets coming online. The vulnerabilities of our space systems really kind of threatened the way we've done business in the past, both militarily and in the case of GPS economically. The impacts of that cybersecurity risk are clear in our acquisition and sustainment processes, but I've got to tell you, as the threat vectors change, as the vulnerabilities change, we've got to be nimble enough, agile enough, to be able to bounce back and forth. We can't just say, many people in the audience are probably familiar with the RMF or the Risk Management Framework approach to reviewing the cyber security of a system. We can't have program managers and engineers just accomplish an RMF on a system. And then, hey, high five, we're all good. It's a journey, not a destination, that's cybersecurity. And it's a constant battle rhythm through our weapon systems lifecycle, not just a single event. >> I want to get to this commercial business needs and your needs on the next question. But before I go there, you mentioned agile. And I see that clearly because when you have accelerated innovation cycles, you've got to be faster. And we saw this in the computer industry, mainframes, mini computers, and then we started getting beyond maybe when the internet hit and PCs came out, you saw the big enterprises, the banks and government start to work with startups. And it used to be a joke in the entrepreneurial circles is that, there's no way if you are a startup you're ever going to get a contract with a big business enterprise. Now that used to be for public sector and certainly for you guys. So as you see startups out there and there's acquisition involved, I'm sure would love to have a contract with Space Force. There's an ROI calculation where if it's in space and you have a sustainment view and it's software, you might have a new kind of business model that could be attractive to startups. Could you share your thoughts on the folks who want to be a supplier to you, whether they're a startup or an existing business that wants to be agile, but they might not be that big company. >> John, that's a fantastic question. We're desperately trying to reach out to those new space advocates, to those startups, to those what we sometimes refer to, within the Department of Defense, those non traditional defense contractors. A couple of things just for thinking purposes on some of the things that we're trying to highlight. Three years ago, we created here at Space and Missile System Center, the Space Enterprise Consortium to provide a platform, a contractual vehicle, really to enable us to rapidly prototype, development of space systems and to collaborate between the US Space Force, traditional defense contractors, non traditional vendors like startups, and even some academic institutions. SPEC, as we call it, Space Enterprise Consortium uses a specialized contracting tool to get contracts awarded quickly. Many in the audience may be familiar with other transaction agreements. And that's what SPEC is based on. And so far in just three years, SPEC has awarded 75 different prototyping contracts worth over $800 million with a 36% reduction in time to award. And because it's a consortium based competition for these kinds of prototyping efforts, the barrier to entry for small and nontraditional, for startups, even for academic institutions to be able to compete for these kinds of prototyping has really lowered. These types of partnerships that we've been working through on spec have really helped us work with smaller companies who might not have the background or expertise in dealing with the government or in working with cyber security for their systems, both our developmental systems and the systems that they're designing and trying to build. We want to provide ways for companies large and small to partner together in support kind of mutually beneficial relationships between all. Recently at the Annual Air Force Association conference that I mentioned earlier, I moderated a panel with several space industry leaders, all from big traditional defense contractors, by the way. And they all stressed the importance of building bridges and partnerships between major contractors in the defense industry and new entrance. And that helps us capture the benefits of speed and agility that come with small companies and startups, as well as the expertise and specialized skill sets of some of those larger contractors that we rely on day in and day out. Advanced cyber security protections and utilization of secure facilities are just a couple of things that I think we could be prioritizing more so in those collaborations. As I mentioned earlier, the SPEC has been very successful in awarding a number of different prototyping contracts and large dollar values. And it's just going to get better. There's over 400 members of the space enterprise consortium, 80% of them are non traditional kinds of vendors. And we just love working with them. Another thing that many people in the audience may be familiar with in terms of our outreach to innovators, if you will, and innovators that include cyber security experts is our space pitch day events. So we held our first event last November in San Francisco, where we awarded over a two day period about $46 million to 30 different companies that had potentially game changing ideas. These were phase two small business innovative research efforts that we awarded with cash on the spot. We're planning on holding our second space pitch day in the spring of 2021. We're planning on doing it right here in Los Angeles, COVID-19 environment permitting. And we think that these are fantastic venues for identifying and working with high-speed startups, and small businesses who are interested in really, truly partnering with the US Air Force. It's, as I said before, it's a really exciting time to be a part of this business. And working with the innovation economy is something that the Department of Defense really needs to do in that the innovation that we used to think was ours. That 80% of the industrial base innovation that came from the Department of Defense, the script has been flipped there. And so now more than 70%, particularly in space innovation comes from the commercial sector, not from the defense business itself. And so that's a tsunami of investment and a tsunami of a capability. And I need to figure out how to get my surfboard out and ride it, you know what I mean? >> Yeah, It's one of those things where the script has been flipped, but it's exciting because it's impacting everything. When you're talking about systems architecture? You're talking about software, you're talking about a business model. You're talking about dev sec opsx from a technical perspective, but now you have a business model innovation. All the theaters are exploding in innovation, technical, business, personnel. This brings up the workforce challenge. You've got the cyber needs for the US Space Force, It's probably great ROI model for new kinds of software development that could be priced into contracts. That's a entrepreneurial innovation, you've got the business model theater, you've got the personnel. How does the industry adopt and change? You guys are clearly driving this. How does the industry adjust to you? >> Yeah. So I think a great way to answer that question is to just talk about the kind of people that we're trying to prioritize in the US Space Force from an acquisition perspective, and in this particular case from a cybersecurity perspective. As I mentioned earlier, it's the most exciting time to be in space programs, really since the days of Apollo. Just to put it in terms that maybe have an impact with the audience. From 1957 until today, approximately 9,000 satellites have been launched from the various space varying countries around the planet. Less than 2000 of those 9,000 are still up on orbit and operational. And yet in the new space regime players like Space X have plans to launch, 12,000 satellites for some of their constellations alone. It really is a remarkable time in terms of innovation and fielding of space capabilities and all of those space capabilities, whether they're commercial, civil, or defense are going to require appropriate cybersecurity protections. It's just a really exciting time to be working in stuff like this. And so folks like the folks in this audience who have a passion about space and a passion about cybersecurity are just the kind of people that we want to work with. Cause we need to make sure our systems are secure and resilient. We need folks that have technical and computing expertise, engineering skills to be able to design cyber secure systems that can detect and mitigate attacks. But we also, as you alluded to, we need people that have that business and business acumen, human networking background, so that we can launch the startups and work with the non traditional businesses. Help to bring them on board help, to secure both their data and our data and make sure our processes and systems are free as much as possible from attack. For preparation, for audience members who are young and maybe thinking about getting into this trade space, you got to be smart on digital networking. You got to understand basic internet protocols, concepts, programming languages, database design. Learn what you can for penetration or vulnerability testing and a risk assessment. I will tell you this, and I don't think he will, I know he will not mind me telling you this, but you got to be a lifelong learner and so two years ago, I'm at home evening and I get a phone call on my cell phone and it's my boss, the commander of Air Force Space command, General, J. Raymond, who is now currently the Chief of Space Operations. And he is on temporary duty, flying overseas. He lands where he's going and first thing he does when he lands is he calls me and he goes JT, while I was traveling, I noticed that there were eBooks available on the commercial airliner I was traveling on and there was an ebook on something called scrumming and agile DevSecOps. And I read it, have you read it? And I said, no, sir. But if you tell me what the title of the book is, I will read it. And so I got to go to my staff meeting, the very next week, the next time we had a staff meeting and tell everybody in the staff meeting, hey, if the four star and the three star can read the book about scrumming, then I'm pretty sure all of you around this table and all our lieutenants and our captains our GS13s, All of our government employees can get smart on the scrumming development process. And interestingly as another side, I had a telephone call with him last year during the holidays, where he was trying to take some leave. And I said, sir, what are you up to today? Are you making eggnog for the event tonight or whatever. And the Chief of Space Operations told me no, I'm trying to teach myself Python. I'm at lesson two, and it's not going so well, but I'm going to figure this out. And so that kind of thing, if the chief of staff or the Chief of Space Operations can prioritize scrumming and Python language and innovation in his daily schedule, then we're definitely looking for other people who can do that. And we'll just say, lower levels of rank throughout our entire space force enterprise. Look, we don't need people that can code a satellite from scratch, but we need to know, we need to have people that have a basic grasp of the programming basics and cybersecurity requirements. And that can turn those things into meaningful actions, obviously in the space domain, things like basic physics and orbital mechanics are also important spaces, not an intuitive domain. So under understanding how things survive on orbit is really critical to making the right design and operational decisions. And I know there's probably a lot, because of this conference. I know there's probably a whole lot of high speed cybersecurity experts out in the audience. And I need those people in the US Space Force. The country is counting on it, but I wouldn't discount having people that are just cyber aware or cyber savvy. I have contracting officers and logisticians and program managers, and they don't have to be high end cybersecurity experts, but they have to be aware enough about it to be able to implement cyber security protections into our space systems. So the skill set is really, really broad. Our adversaries are pouring billions of dollars into designing and fielding offensive and destructive space, cybersecurity weapons. They repeatedly shown really a blatant disregard of safety and international norms for good behavior on orbit. And the cyber security aspects of our space systems is really a key battleground going forward so that we can maintain that. As I mentioned before, peaceful global comments of space, we really need all hands on deck. If you're interested in helping in uniform, if you're interested in helping, not in uniform, but as a government employee, a commercial or civil employee to help us make cyber security more important or more able to be developed for our space systems. And we'd really love to work with you or have you on the team to build that safe and secure future for our space systems. >> Lieutenant General John Thompson, great insight. Thank you for sharing all that awesome stories too, and motivation for the young next generation. The United States Space Force approach to cybersecurity. Really amazing talk, thank you for your time. Final parting question is, as you look out and you have your magic wand, what's your view for the next few years in terms of things that we could accomplish? It's a super exciting time. What do you hope for? >> So first of all, John, thanks to you and thanks to Cal Poly for the invitation and thanks to everybody for their interest in cybersecurity, especially as it relates to space systems, that's here at the conference. There's a quote, and I'll read it here from Bernard Schriever, who was the founder, if you will, a legend in a DoD space, the founder of the Western development division, which was a predecessor organization to Space and Missile System Center, General Schriever, I think captures the essence of how we see the next couple of years. "The world has an ample supply of people "who can always come up with a dozen good reasons "why new ideas will not work and should not be tried, "but the people who produce progress are breed apart. "They have the imagination, "the courage and the persistence to find solutions." And so I think if you're hoping that the next few years of space innovation and cybersecurity innovation are going to be upon a pony ride at the County fair, then perhaps you should look for another line of work, because I think the next few years in space and cybersecurity innovation are going to be more like a rodeo and a very dynamic rodeo as it goes. It is an awesome privilege to be part of this ecosystem. It's really an honor for me to be able to play some small role in the space ecosystem and trying to improve it while I'm trying to improve the chances of the United States of America in a space war fighting environment. And so I thank all of you for participating today and for this little bit of time that you've allowed me to share with you. Thank you. >> Sir, thank you for your leadership and thank you for the time for this awesome event, Space and Cyber Cybersecurity Symposium 2020, I'm John Furrier on behalf of Cal Poly, thanks for watching. (mellow music)

>> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a CUBEconversation. >> Hi brother, this is Dave Vellante and welcome to this CUBEconversation. We're going to talk about a topic that is obviously top of mind in a lot of people situations right now, which is ensuring business continuity, business resiliency. Given this work from home pivot is something that a lot of people are focused on. Many CIOs have told us that business resiliency was way too focused on disaster recovery. And we're going to talk about this in the context of VPNs. Now I've got a love-hate with VPNs. I mean, on the one hand they provide safeguards. They give us privacy, they give us protection, everything's encrypted, but they can bring forth performance problems. There could be service quality issues, video or audio. And so the problem with VPNs is a lot of times they're a black box. You don't know what's going on inside. There are different types of VPNs, and it's actually a pretty complicated situation and with me to talk about that is Paul Barrett, the CTO of Enterprise at Netscout, Paul, good to see you. >> Great to be here. >> Yeah, so what did you see with regard to the trends that hit with COVID? Obviously there was this very rapid work from home pivot, VPNs had to be deployed for remote workers who typically would come into the office, what did you see? >> So with Netscout, we service the largest, most complex organizations, both in the US and globally. But for many of these organizations, the VPN services they provided really was for quite a small subset of their workforce. People working on the road, maybe they had a small subset of their employees working from home. And as you say, obviously, as we all understand, almost overnight, everyone's found themselves struggling to work from home. And quite frankly, most organizations VPN configurations were just never architected to deal with this kind of situation. One of the perhaps most important distinctions between the different types of VPN is whether you have a so called full VPN service or a split VPN service, because that really impacted the ability of organizations to deliver VPN. >> So what does that mean full versus split? I know there's sometimes free VPNs. You kind of get what you pay for, what does that mean, split versus full? >> So with a full VPN connection, every thing that you connect to on the internet or any business service has to go over your VPN connection. You can't make any direct connections from your PC to the internet, has to go through your enterprise network. So if you think about it, if you suddenly moved tens of thousands of employees to working from home, every single communication activity performed by those employees goes through your VPN concentrators. With a split VPN, and for example, I use a split VPN, only when I need to connect to business services that are provided over my enterprise network do I actually go directly to my enterprise network over the VPN. If I'm just going to Google or any other regular internet resource, then I get a direct connection to that internet resource. And that really takes the pressure off the VPN concentrators. >> The split VPN gives you more flexibility. I can't tell you how many times I've sent a link to somebody and say, oh, I can't open it, it's got to be my VPN blocking it. You're saying it gives you this sort of you have your cake and eat it too, the split VPN. >> Well, right, yes. It just means that to say it's only the traffic that has to go into the corporate network, goes through the corporate VPNs. What we observe is, as I say, 'cause we deal with very large organizations, particularly regulated industries, such as financial services and healthcare. There was a as just a requirement that hey, everything's got to come over the VPN. We don't want any traffic kind of leaking directly onto the internet. We want to have full control, so everything goes through our security stack. So one of the things we're sort of seeing now with three months into the COVID situation, I would say most of our customers have got through the worst of it. But a lot of them would say they're still running very hot. And those of who were previously offering full VPN, are saying, "Well, can I transition "to offering a split VPN service." But it's not a trivial thing to do because especially if you're highly regulated, you've got the compliance requirements, you've got to make sure that the traffic that has to go through your security stack does so, and that you're comfortable with any traffic that's going direct, SaaS services like Office 365, you have to make sure that you're comfortable with that traffic is going direct over the internet. So let's say it's the transition from full VPN to split it's quite a challenge and it's not trivial. >> Well, and I would imagine, I mean, if I'm the compliance officer I'm saying, "Go full VPN and I don't care if there's a restriction "and some handcuffs placed on the users." If you're a line of business head, you're saying, "Hey, I want more flexibility." So the brute force approach, it's a two edged sword. So how do you help solve that problem? I know you're focused on providing visibility, but explain where Netscout fits in the value chain. >> So yeah, everything Netscout does is about analyzing the traffic flag on networks. And we do it for helping customers ensure that the applications and services are healthy, that they're available, we have products that allow people to protect their applications against DDoS attacks, but in the case of VPN, it's really about understanding how the service is being used. If you actually look at the traffic coming on the enterprise side of your VPN concentrator, so often it's been decrypted, I can see who's accessing which business services, I can see, if for example, it's a full VPN connection, how I got users going to unimportant services like YouTube, which really isn't helping the situation. I can see whether, I might actually, 'cause typically large organizations have multiple VPN concentrators around the country and even around the globe. And you get situations where one set of the VPN concentrators are sitting there under utilized, whereas I've got another set of VPN concentrators that are sort of overwhelmed. And by getting this visibility of that kind of usage, I can actually think about getting some of my user groups to maybe use a different VPN concentrator. And as I was talking about the migration to a split VPN, having visibility of what applications are being used. Hey, I have this particular sensitive application and I need all that traffic to come through my security stack, but actually it turns out I didn't configure my split VPN correctly and it's all leaking directly over the public internet. Then I have the visibility I need to detect that kind of situation and to remedy it. >> So is the primary reason why people use Netscout in this use case really to, obviously to provide that visibility, but to make them more secure, is there a performance aspect as well in terms of what you guys are doing? >> Yeah, one of the, I would say the facets of the move to working from home is increased emphasis on services, such as unified communications, voice and video, the use of collaboration services, has greatly increased. Those types of service, particularly voice and video, they're real time services, they're very susceptible to poor network transmission. Things like latency and packets being dropped. And as I say, people working from home are becoming much more reliant on these types of service than they are when they're in an office. And so it's critical to understand whether problems with, for example, voice and video quality are arising in your own network, because for example, you've saturated your VPN concentrator or whether they're coming from your SaaS provider. So, to give an example, I find using, one of the well known collaboration services, if I've got problems in my own network and I'm introducing packet loss into my voice feeds, if I send all of this, because of already corrupted traffic to the collaboration service, and then that gets reflected to all of my other users, everyone will go, "Oh, hey, there's a problem "with the collaboration service." And you're going to waste time pointing your thing at the collaboration service provider, who let's be honest at the moment has got much better things to do than to go chasing phantom problems. When if you have visibility inside your own network, you can actually understand that, oh, hey, no, this is a problem of my own making. So I'm not going to waste cycles, pointing the finger at the other guy, I can actually get on with isolating the problem in my own network, figure out what I need to do and then remediate it. >> So Netscout, you guys are doing some dirty work. You like Navy Seals going in, and going deep into the network. So talk a little bit about the intellectual property behind this. How does it work? What's the secret sauce that Netscout brings to the table? >> So, our CEO and co-founder Anil Singhal, over 30 years ago, the company is 35 years old, he recognized the growing importance of the computer network and he recognized the need to understand what's happening on these networks. And of course now it's almost impossible to do anything without it involving a network of some kind. So, he persevered and continue to refine and refine the technology of analyzing what happens on a network, but converting that raw traffic into actionable data, we call that the data we produce, the metadata, Adaptive Service Intelligence, and we sometimes refer to it as smart data. And of course there's an emerging trend in the industry, of AIOps saying, what can I do if I start to apply machine learning algorithms to all the data that's coming out of my environment. It's like the old garbage in, garbage out, you could only perform high quality analytics if you have a high quality data source to work with. So that's really, that's always been our focus. How can we take all of that complex traffic on a network and map it to a very simple but actionable set of high quality data? >> So it always comes back to the data, doesn't it? In these types of things, but I wonder what is the diversity and variety of the data set? Is it a fairly narrow and well understood data set or are there sort of conflicting data that you also have to rationalize? >> Well, data model has multiple levels. Everything from reduce all the raw packets, and we're intelligent how we do that. We have all the parts that you really need, and we store rich data relating to individual transactions. That's very useful for troubleshooting, but what we were also able to do, is to actually for most network protocols, we actually can map it to a common data model. And that's extremely powerful because it means that in a single pane of glass, I can get insight into all of the different applications and protocols running on my network. >> So you've sort of addressed the data quality problem in that way, I wonder, I mean, as a CTO, I would imagine you spend a fair amount of time with customers, are there any sort of examples that you can give? Either, name names or anonymous, just in terms of the 100 days, how you've helped customers, some of your favorite examples, perhaps? >> Well, as I say, I mean, a lot of energy has been put into providing that visibility around VPN services because quite honestly it was never seen as a particularly critical component of the overall enterprise. It was that, as I said earlier, it was that kind of, oh, that's just something to help the guys on the road. And all of a sudden it became the most important piece. And as I said, it's also not just been about, okay, let's give sufficient visibility for you to kind of keep the wheels on the truck, it's also helping the customers about thinking forward, about planning. We talked about planning a migration, split VPN, but also thinking about their future needs. I think a lot of customers are looking to over-provision and the ones that have already transitioned to virtualized infrastructure are actually in a stronger position because they've got a lot more flexibility and ability, for example, to split up more VPN resources, or more virtual desktop resources, for example. >> And of course you mentioned that you guys deal with many types of industries, but specifically a lot of regulated industries, financial services, healthcare, government, et cetera. And so I would imagine that, that those guys really had to tap your services over the past 100 days. >> Exactly, and as we mentioned earlier, those are the organizations that are much more likely to be using full VPN and have a lot more constraints on their ability. So even if they do move to split VPN, then there's going to be limits on how much of the traffic that they can truly allow direct over the internet. >> I wonder if we could end just sort of riffing on the whole notion of digital transformation and automation. I mean, prior to COVID, we talk a lot about automation, talk about digital transformation, but the reality is a lot of it was lip service. A lot of customers or companies would really kind of prioritize other initiatives, but overnight, if you weren't digital, you couldn't transact business and automation has really become imperative. People don't seem to be afraid of it anymore, they seem to be sort of glomming onto it. And really as a productivity driver, how do you see the nation in this post-isolation economy and what are the impacts to some of your customers? >> Well, as we all understand, digital transformation is all about trying to be agile, to be able to move as fast as possible, to be able to deploy new services quickly, to respond to disruption in the marketplace and new opportunities. The only way you can really achieve that as you mentioned, is through large scale automation. But I like to make two observations about automation. Automation is very good at taking a small building block and then replicating it and deploying it, many hundreds or thousands of times over. But if you've got a bug or a defect in that building block, when you go and replicate it, you go and replicate whatever that failure moment was or that bug. So if you don't have visibility, very quickly, you can find that a very small little area that was overlooked by the quality guys has got the huge implications. The other thing about wholesale automation, and as we build these increasingly complex systems where we have machines talking to machines, largely unobserved, I'm always reminded of the stock market crash of 1987, so called Black Monday on October the 19th. And this was one of the biggest crashes ever, something like a trillion dollars was wiped off the US markets alone. And although, a lot of people said a correction was due, when we look back, we see that the thing that was different about that crash is that it was the first time we really had automated trading algorithms in play. Now, I don't believe anybody who wrote one of those algorithms was deliberately trying to crash the markets, they were trying to make money. But what no one had thought about is how all of these different algorithms by different people would interact with each other when they were pushed sort of out of their comfort zone, if you like. And I think we have a very strong analogy with digital transformation. As I say, we continue to build increasingly complex systems with machines talking to machines. So for me to operate these kinds of environments without maximum visibility, it's almost terrifying. It's like driving a racing car without a safety harness. So, visibility is absolutely key as we move towards further automation. >> That's interesting, I mean, I wasn't around in the 1920s, but my understanding was that when stock market crash hit then, depression then it took hours and hours and hours to determine, what the market actually closed at. You actually saw that in the 60s as well. And then I remember, well, 1987, there were no, for you younger people in United States, there were no real time quotes then, unless you had like a Bloomberg Terminal, which we had one, actually, I was at IDC at the time. And it took like many, many minutes to actually get a quote back. I mean, the volume was so high and the infrastructure just really wasn't there. But now to your point, you see things happening today in the stock market, Paul and they chalk it up to a computer glitch, which essentially means they have no idea what happened. And to your point about the complexity and machines to machines, if you think about AI, a lot of AI is again, back to this black box. So are you suggesting that you guys can actually provide visibility? It's solves some of that black box problem? >> Well, absolutely, what we can do is we can provide a visibility into the interactions between all of these different systems. It's amazing how often in these large complex environments, there may be dependencies that people didn't even know existed. That can be that complex. So by looking at all of the traffic flowing between all of these different systems, we can help people understand what the dependencies are. Is a particular sub-component starting to fail? Is it becoming slow? Is it generating errors? And if things do go wrong, it's about troubleshooting as fast as possible. We need to get these systems back up and running. So the ability to rapidly isolate problems and to get away from the situation where different organizations in IT are pointing the finger at each other, 'cause nobody really knows where to start. And that's kind of human nature. It's like, well, it could be my responsibility, but it could be the other guy, so I'm pointing the finger at the other guy. What we do is we provide that information that first of all, isolates the location of the problem. So we can put the correct team working on it and the other guys can get back to their day jobs. And by providing evidence of a problem, you can actually allow someone to get to the bottom of a problem much faster. >> You got to have tooling, with all this public internet, the public cloud, now with IOT, it's just going to get more and more complicated. We'll probably look back on the 2010s and say that was nothing compared to what we're entering here. But Paul, thanks so much for coming to theCUBE it was a great conversation. Really appreciate your insights. >> Thank you, I enjoyed it's my pleasure. >> All right and thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE, we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>> From the SiliconANGLE Media office in Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE. Now, here's your host, Dave Vellante. >> Hi everybody. This is Dave Vellante and welcome to this CUBE conversation. I've been following trends in backup and recovery and data protection for decades and I'll tell you right now is one of the most exciting eras that I've ever seen and with me here to talk about some of the trends and some hard news is Beth Phalen. She's the president and general manager of Dell EMCs data protection division. Beth it's great to see you again. Thanks for coming on. >> It's great to be here Dave. It's always good to talk to you. >> So, there's been a subtle change in IT. Even when you go to sort of the downturn in 2008 where IT was largely a support function. It's really now becoming a fundamental enabler. Are you seeing that with your customers? >> Absolutely. The vision of IT being some back office that is segregated from the rest of the company is no longer true. What we find is customers want their application owners to be able to drive data protection and then have that compared with the central oversight so they can still have that global overview. >> The other change is, for years data has been this problem that we have to manage. I got so much data. I got to back it up or protect it, move it. It's now become a source of value. Everybody talks about digital transformation. It's all about how you get value from data. >> Yeah. And it's so interesting because it was there all the time. Right? And suddenly people have realized, yes, this is an asset that has a huge impact on our business on our customers and again makes it even more important that they can rely on getting access to that data because they're building their business on it. >> So as the head of the data protection division, it's interesting. Even the palance has changed. It used to be, when it was just tape it was backup and now it's data protection. So the mindset is shifting. >> It is and it's continuing to shift with new threats like cyber recovery and other challenges that are out there, protecting data becomes the core of what we are offering our customers. >> So let's talk a little bit more about the catalysts for that change. You got tons of data, you are able to apply now machine intelligence like you never have before and you got cloud which brings scale. So this is changing the needs of customers in the way in which they protect data. >> As customers data becomes more and more distributed across multiple cloud providers, multiple locations, it's even more important that they can answer the question, where is my data and is it protected? And that they can recover it as quickly as possible. >> And you're seeing things like DevOps, data protection strategies and data management strategies, and so supporting DevOps and analytics applications. You also have new threats like ransomware. So it's a more fundamental component of cyber. >> Yeah and you will hear us talking a little bit about cyber recovery, the new product that we introduced last year. We can't just think about data protection as backup. We have to think about it as the comprehensive way that customers can get access to their data even if they're attacked. >> So much has changed. Everything has changed. >> The level of innovation that we've been doing has been keeping up with that change. And that's one of the things that I'm most excited about as the president of this division. We've been investing in enhancing the customer experience, and cyber recovery as I mentioned and expanding into new markets into driving a new level of reliability and resiliency, building on the duration that we have. And of course expanding into the cloud. So one of the things that hasn't changed is the fundamentals of I need to get my data back, I need to be trusted. Why is it, you guys make a big deal out of being number one. You're number one in all the Gartner Magic Quadrants and so forth. Why is leadership so important to customers and what are those fundamentals that haven't changed? >> So two questions there. First, leadership is so important because we have more experience protecting data around the globe than anybody else. And that means all environments right from the multi-petabyte, major corporations to the shops have maybe a terabyte. So 24 terabytes. We're involved in it all. So that experience is important. And then those fundamentals you talked about, lowest cost to protect, fastest performance, fastest backups and resiliency, those fundamentals have to be part of any data protection product. >> The way you guys are organized, you are in chare of R&D as well, you talked about innovation before. I wonder if you could talk a little bit more about how your R&D investments are translating into customer value in terms of price performance. So resiliency, speed, cost. What's going on there? >> The biggest thing that I wanna talk about and highlight here is how much our investment in cloud is enabling our customers to continue to have confidence that they can get the same level of digital trust that they've had with us on prem but now as they expand into the cloud for cloud disaster recovery, long-term retention, data protection in the cloud that that confidence comes with them. And we're doing it in a way that allows them to seamlessly expand into the cloud without having to introduce additional gateways, additional hardware. It becomes an extension of their data protection infrastructure. >> So the cloud operating model is very important here. What are you guys doing for instance, admins, application owners, in terms of enabling self-service for example. >> We have the broadest application support of any company. And what we're doing is we're integrating directly with those applications. Whether it be Oracle, SAP. You can go down the list. And then of course directly integrating with VMware for the VM admins. That's not enough though because if we just did that you wouldn't be able to have one view of how your data protection policies are working. And so we pair that with centralized governance to make sure that the person in charge of the data protection for that company still could have confidence that all the right things are happening. >> So what does the data protection portfolio look like? How should we think about that? >> Three simple things, Data Domain, our new integrated appliances and data protection suite. >> Okay. Follow up question on that is, how do you, for customers, obstruct the complexity? How are you simplifying their world especially in this cloud operating module. >> Simplifying comes in multiple stages. You have to simplify the first box to backup experience. We've cut that down to an hour and a half, two hours in max. From there, you have to make sure the day-to-day tasks are simple. So things like two clicks to do cloud failover, three clicks to failback. Things like a single step to restore a file in a VMware environment and then live movement of that VM to another primary storage array. That kind of targeted customer use case simple process is core to what we've been doing to enhance the customer experience. >> Now, you guys aren't really a public cloud provider so you gotta support multiple clouds. What are you doing there in terms of both cloud support and what are you seeing in multi-cloud. >> Most customers have more than one cloud provider that they're working with. So what we do is we allow the customers specific example right from within the data domain interface to select which cloud they wanna tier to and then they can also select other cloud providers through the same interface. So, it's not a separate experience. They can focus on the Data Domain but then interact with multiple clouds. >> Awesome. Beth, thanks for taking some time here to set this up. We're gonna hear about some hard news that you guys have today. We've got some perspectives from IDC on this but right now lets take a look at what the customer says. Keep it right there. (chilled piano music) >> Phoenix Children's is a healthcare organization for kids. Everything that we do is about the kids. So we wanna make sure that all our critical data that a doctor or a nurse needs on the floors to be able to take care of a sick kid, we need to make sure it's available at any time. The data protection software that we're using from Dell EMC with Data Domain give us that protection. Our critical data are well kept and we can easily recover them. Before we moved to Data Domain we were using Veritas NetBackup and some older technology. Our backup windows were taking upwards of 20 to 24 hours. Moving to Data Domain with de-duplication we can finish our full backups in less than seven hours. The user deployment for data protection software and Data Domain was very easy for us. Our engineers, they have never worked with data protection software or Data Domain before. They were able to do some research, walk a little bit with some Dell engineers and we were able to implement the technology within a month, a month and a half. ECS for Phoenix Children's Hospital is a great technology. Simple to use, easy to manage. The benefits from a user perspective are tremendous. From an IT perspective, I can extract terabytes of data in less than an hour. When we get into a critical situation, we can rely 100% on ECS that we will get the information that the doctor or the nurse needs to take care of the kid. The data protection software and the Data Domain benefits for Phoenix Children's Hospital are great. There is a solution that works seamlessly together. I have no worries that my backups will not run. I have no worries I will not be able to recover critical applications. (chilled piano music) >> We're back with Ruya Barrett who's the vice president of marketing for Dell EMC's Data Protection division. We got some hard news to get into. Ruya, let's get right into it. What are you guys announcing today? >> We are announcing a basically tremendous push with our data protection family both in Data Domain and Integrated Data Protection appliances and the software that basically makes those two rock. >> So, you've got a few capabilities that you're announcing. Cloud performance. Take us through sort of at a high level. What are the three areas that you're focused on this announcement? >> Exactly. You nailed it Dave. So three areas of announcement, exciting cloud capabilities and cloud expansion. We've been investing in cloud over the last three years and this announcement is just a furthering of those capabilities. Tremendous push around performance for an additional use cases and services that customers want. The last one but not least is basically expanded coverage and push into the mid-market space with our Data Domain 3300 and IDPA 4400. >> And this comes in the form of software that I can install on my existing appliances? >> It's all software value that really enables our appliances to do what they do best, to drive efficiency, performance but it's really the software layer that makes it sane. >> And if I'm a customer I get that software, no additional charges? >> If you have the capabilities, today you'll be able to get the expanding capabilities. No charge. >> Okay. So one of the important areas is cloud. Let's get into some of the cloud use cases. You're focused on a few of those. What are they? >> Cloud has become a really prevalent destination. So when we look at cloud and what customers wanna do with regards to data protection in the cloud, it's really a lot of use cases. The three we're gonna touch on today is really cloud tiering. Our capabilities are in cloud tiering with long time archival. So they're really trying to leverage cloud as a long time archival. The second one is really around cloud disaster recovery. To and from the cloud. So that's really important use case. That's becoming really important to our customers. And not, God forbid, for a disaster but just being able to test our disaster recovery capabilities and resiliency. And the last one is really in-cloud data protection. So those are the three use cases and we have enhancements across all three. >> Let's go deeper into those. So cloud tiering. We think of tiering. Often times you remember the big days of tiering, inbox tiering, hot data, cold data. What are you doing in cloud tiering? >> Well, cloud tiering is our way of really supporting object storage both on premises and in the cloud. And we introduced it about two years ago. And what we're really doing now is expanding that coverage, making it more efficient, giving customers the tools to be able to understand what the costs are gonna be. So one of the announcements is actually a free space estimator tool for our customers that really enables them to understand the impact of taking an application and using long-term retention using cloud tier both for their on-premise data protection capacity as well as what they need in the cloud and the cost associated. So that's a big question before customers wanna move data. Second is really broadest coverage. I mean, right now in addition to the usual suspects of AWS, Azure, Dell EMC Elastic Cloud Storage, we now support Ceph, we support Alibaba, we support Google Cloud. So really, how do you build out that multi-cloud deployment that we see our customers wanting to do with regards to their long-term archival needs? So really expanding that reach. So we now have the broadest coverage with regards to archiving in the cloud and using cloud for long-term retention. >> Great. Okay. Let's talk about disaster recovery. I'm really interested in this topic because the customers that we talk to they wanna incorporate disaster recovery and backup as part of a holistic strategy. You also mentioned testing. Not enough customers are able to test their DR. It's too risky, it's too hard, it's too complicated. What are you guys doing in the DR space. >> So one of the things that's I think huge and very differentiated with regards to how we approach, whether it's archive or whether it's DR or in-cloud is the fact that from an appliance standpoint you need no additional hardware or gateway to be able to leverage the capabilities. One of the things that we introduced, again cloud DR over a year ago, and we introduced it across our Data Domain appliances as well as our first entry to the mid-sized companies with IDPA DP 4400. And now what we're doing is making it available across all our models, all our appliances. And all of our appliances now have the ability to do fully orchestrated disaster recovery either for test use cases or actual disasters, God forbid, but what they are able to do. The three click failovers and the two click failbacks from the cloud. So both for failback from the cloud or in the cloud. So it's really big and important use cases for our customers right now. Again, with that, we're expanding use case coverage to now, we used to support AWS only, now we also support Azure. >> Great. Okay. The third use case you talked about was in-cloud data protection. What do you mean by that and what are you doing there? >> So one of, again, the really interesting things about our portfolio is our ability to run it as an integrated hardware-software platform or in the form of a software only deployment. So our data domain virtual addition is exactly that. You can run our Data Domain software in virtual machines. And what that allows our customers to do is whether they're running a software defined data center on prem or whether they want in-cloud capabilities and all that goodness they have been getting from Data Domain in the cloud, they now can do that very easily. And what we've done in that space with this announcement is expanded our capacity coverage. So now Data Domain Virtual Edition can cover 96 terabytes of in-cloud capability and capacity. And we've also, again, with that use case, expanded our coverage to include Google Cloud, AWS, Azure. So really expanded our coverage. >> Great. I'm interested in performance as well because everybody wants more performance but are we talking about backup performance, restore performance? What are you doing in that area? >> Perfect. And one of the things, when we talk about performance, one of the big use cases we're seeing that's driving performance is that customers wanna make their backup copies do more. They wanna use it for application test and development, they wanna use it for instant access to their VMs, instant access and restores for their VMs. So performance is being fueled by some additional services that customers wanna see on their backup copies. So basically one of the things that we've done with this announcement is improved our performance across all of these use cases. So for application test of test of development, you can have access to instant VMs. Up to 32 instant access and restore capabilities with VMs. We have improved our cash utilization. So now you can basically support a lot more IOPS, leveraging our cash, enhanced cash, four times as many IOPS as we were doing before. So up to 40,000 IOPS with almost no latency. So tremendous, again, improvement in use cases. Restores. Customers are always wanting to do restores faster and faster. So file restores is no exception to that. So with multi-streaming capability, we now have the opportunity and the capabilities to do file restores two times faster on premise and four times faster from cloud. So again, cloud is a big, everything we do, there's a cloud component to it. And that performance is no exception to that. >> The last thing I wanna touch on is mid-market. So you guys made an announcement this past summer. And so it sounds like you're doubling down on that space. Give us the update. >> Sure. So we introduced the Data Domain 3300 and our customers have been asking for a new capacity point. So one of the things we're introducing with this release is an eight terabyte version of Data Domain 3300 that goes and scales up to 32 terabytes. In addition to that, we're supporting faster networking with 10 gig E support as well as virtual tape libraries over Fiber Channels. So virtual tape libraries are also back and we're supporting with Data Domain 3300. So again, tremendous improvements and capabilities that we've introduced for mid-market in the form of Data Domain 3300 as well as the DP4400 which is our integrated appliance. So, again, how do we bring all that enterprise goodness to a much broader segment of the market in the right form factor and right capacity points. >> Love it. You guys are on a nice cadence. Last summer, we had this announcement, we got Dell Technologies World coming up in May, actually end of April, now May. So looking forward to seeing you there. Thanks so much for taking us through these announcements. >> Yeah, thank you. Thanks for having us. >> You're very welcome. Now, let's go Phil Goodwin. Phil Goodwin was an analyst at IDC. And IDC has done a ton of research on the economic impact of moving to sort of modern data protection environment, they've interviewed about a thousand customers and they had deep dive interviews with about a dozen. So let's hear from Phil Goodwin in IDC and we'll be right back. (chilled music) >> IDC research shows that 60% of organizations will be executing on a digital transformaion strategy by 2020, barely a year away. The purpose of digital transformation is to make the organization more competitive with faster, more accurate information and timely information driving driving business decisions. If any digital transformation effort is to be successful, data availability must be a foundational part in the effort. Our research also shows that 48.5% or nearly half of all digital transformation projects involve improvements to the organizations data protection efforts. Purpose-built backup appliances or PBBAs have been the cornerstone for many data protection efforts. PBBAs provide faster, more reliable backup with fewer job failures than traditional tape infrastructure. More importantly, they support faster data restoration in the event of loss. Because they have very high data de-duplication rates, sometimes 40 to one or more, organizations can retain data onsite longer at a lower overall cost thereby improving data availability and TCO. PBBAs may be configured as a target device or disk-based appliance that can be used by any backup software as a backup target or as integrated appliances that include all hardware and software needed for fast efficient backups. The main customer advantages are rapid deployment, simple management and flexible growth options. The Dell EMC line of PBBAs is a broad portfolio that includes Data Domain appliances and the recently introduced Integrated Data Protection Appliances. Dell EMC Data Domain appliances have been in the PBBA market for more than 15 years. According to IDC market tracker data as of December 20th, 2018, Dell EMC with Data Domain and IDPA currently holds a 57.5% market share of PBBA appliances for both target and integrated devices. Dell EMC PBBAs have support for cloud data protection including cloud long term retention, cloud disaster recovery and protection for workloads running in the cloud. Recently IDC conducted a business value study among Dell EMC data protection customers. Our business value studies seek to identify and quantify real world customer experiences and financial impact of specific products. This study surveyed more than 1000 medium-sized organizations worldwide as well as provided in-depth interviews with a number of them. We found several highlights in the study including a 225% five-year ROI. In numerical terms, this translated to $218,928 of ROI per 100 terabytes of data per year. We also found a 50% lower cost of operating a data protection environment, a 71% faster data recovery window, 33% more frequent backups and 45% more efficient data protection staff. To learn more about IDC's business value study of Dell EMC data protection and measurable customer impact, we invite you to download the IDC white paper titled, The Business Value of Data Protection in IT Transformation sponsored by Dell EMC. (bouncy techno music) >> We're back with Beth Phalen. Beth, thanks again for helping us with this session and taking us through the news. We've heard about, from a customer, their perspective, some of the problems and challenges that they face, we heard about the hard news from Ruya. Phil Goodwin at IDC gave us a great overview of the customer research that they've done. So, lets bring it home. What are the key takeaways of today? >> First and foremost, this market is hot. It is important and it is changing rapidly. So that's number one. Data protection is a very dynamic and exciting market. Number two is, at Dell EMC, we've been modernizing our portfolio over the past three years and now we're at this exciting point where customers can take advantage of all of our strenth put in multi-cloud environment, in a commercial environment, for cyber recovery. So we've expanded where people can take the value from our portfolio. And I would just want people to know that if they haven't taken a look at the Dell EMC data protection portfolio recently, it's time to take another look. We appreciate all of our customers and what they do for us. We have such a great relationship with our customer base. We wanna make sure that they know what's coming, what's here today and how we're gonna work with them in the future. >> Alright. Well, great. Congratulations on the announcement. You guys have been hard at work. It is a hot space. A lot of action going on. Where can people find more information? >> Go back to dellemc.com, it's all there. >> Great. Well, thank you very much Beth. >> Thank you Dave. >> And thank you for watching. We'll see you next time. This is Dave Vellante from theCUBE. (chilled music)

from Las Vegas it's the queue covering VMworld 2018 brought to you by VMware and its ecosystem partners welcome back to the Mandalay Bay in Las Vegas everybody you're watching the cube the leader and live tech coverage my name is Dave Volante I'm here with my co-host Peter Burroughs Peter great to be working with you we haven't done much this week but I'm really excited to put a great week despite that it's been a great week this day three of our wall-to-wall coverage last year at vmworld one of the biggest hottest trends was data protection same thing this year a lot of buzz a lot of hype a lot of parties Rio Barrett is here so the vice president of product marketing for the data protection division of Dell EMC welcome great to see you again great to be here brian linden is here he is the IT Directorate Melanson Heath out of Austin as well Brian thanks very much for coming on thanks for having me so Rio I mean we talked and I have talked about this yeah what's going on in data protection I mean VMworld it's not it's become the hottest topic absolutely seeing you guys some of the VC funded startups or trying to duke it out throwing big parties all right you guys got all the customers everybody wants them you're fighting like crazy cloud has now come in what's your take what's going on that's really exciting I mean data protection I started out my career in data protection you know but move forward and back in data protection is hotter than ever it's it's great and I think it has to do with the trends that are happening out in the market the big mega trends that are happening we talked about distribution you know data moving out of the data center where the four walls are no longer defining how you secure something so security recoverability are becoming really critical as you talk about edge and data moving to the edge on to cloud computing and multi cloud computing I think it's going to be one of those frontiers that the enterprise still wants to have a reign over how do I recover my data no matter where it's sitting and how do I get it back and how do I secure it so it's very exciting so Brian talked about Melanson heath set it up the company you know tax accounting Boston based in New England etc your and really want to understand the drivers in IT but start with the company please yes lesson Heath is a top-10 accounting regional accounting firm in New England we have offices in Massachusetts New Hampshire and Maine we service other clients in Vermont etc a large portion of our focus is on auditing we do a lot of misrata it's school districts town cities we also do traditional tax accounting there's been advisory the full gamut of accounting professional services you run IT yes okay what are the big drivers in your business and how are they forcing you to sort of rethink the way in which you generally approach IT but specifically approach data protection over the years we've you know we've gone from the traditional everything on premise to moving things to the cloud whether it's a SAS provider or or whatever so we really need to be able to secure our data no matter where it is whether it's in the cloud game it'll have a backup locally between our various offices etc and uptime is paramount we have deadlines that don't don't shift the IRS does not care if we have a storm or we have something wrong with our building we have our professionals have hard deadlines so I one of my tasks is to make sure that no matter what happens we have a timely backup plan and I need to be able to focus on the business and not be focusing on worrying about the backup and data protection so obviously the other part that equation is the recovery plan so really you know we this is our ninth year of the cube and at the time you know when we first started it was a lot of talk about re-architecting backup to handle the the the V blender if you will and the lack of resources now all the conversation Brian just mentioned is cloud so how are you guys - that from a product standpoint oh my god yeah this has been a big topic of conversation I think one of the areas where we really differentiated you know one of the areas that Brian is in the middle of his mid-market and we see a big propensity for an appetite for cloud from an agility standpoint from time to respond standpoint and one of the biggest trends and we heard about it at yesterday's keynote as well is cloud as a disaster recovery site especially for customers that might not have a secondary site so we recently introduced a product called the DP 4400 Brian's actually the first customer to purchase the product so in July we announced it one of the key differentiation of that product is the ease of which customers can now access cloud you know whether it's for a long term retention or cloud disaster recovery without needing any additional hardware literally it's at the fingertips you manage it exactly the way you would you can manage it directly from your VMware operational tools and have access to cloud as a secondary site whether it's for dr or long term retention so that's one of the ways for mid market customers we're really bringing that cloud and bringing it at their fingertips from a recoverability standpoint and then we've done some exciting announcements Beth was here with yang-ming talking about some of the innovations that we've been delivering in cloud whether you're a service provider whether you're a big enterprise across our portfolio so I think we have that's by far one of our key differentiations and better together stories with VMware so I'm really fascinated Brian about some of the things are doing let me let me throw a thesis at you and Andrea you've probably heard this we tend to think that there's a difference between business and digital business and that difference is the degree to which a digital business uses data as an asset in many respects if you start thinking in those terms then data protection for the new world is not just the technical data is protecting your digital business now if you think about an accounting we normally associate accounting with manual processes manual activities but there's a lot more data being generated by your clients by your by the people that are providing the services how is this relationship between data the value of your business and the value of your service is driving you to adopt these new classes of solutions for millions and Heath we are almost completely paperless so all of our data all of our work product goes through technology so we need to you know it's it's imperative that we be protected if servers go down if the site goes down our professionals don't do work and time is money so you know it first is the old thinking of having paper storage or just having local backups if there's a significant enough then we can leverage the cloud and be able to disperse our staff to places where they can sit down with a computer and do work additionally like you said we're collecting a lot more data you know our various software processes are using more machine learning to get more out of that data so having that protected as it expands is critical so increasingly the services that you're providing to your clients are themselves becoming more digital as well that's correct yes so as you think about where this ends up would you characterize yourself as especially interested in the DP 4400 and the set of services that around that as facilitating that process are you going to be able to tell a better story to your business about how they can adopt new practices offer new services etc that are more digital in nature because of this I think so I think having the DP 4400 with its cloud connections will help our our partners our principals become more comfortable with the cloud and and not not fear it they've tended to be you know a little more insular and want to see and feel and you know know that the data is there so you know being able to recover to the cloud or just use the cloud natively is going to be a game-changer for for our firm and our business just add one thing that we've talked about with Brian one of the capabilities with the DP 4400 is the instant access and restore capabilities and we're seeing more of a trend especially in secondary storage platforms much like the ones we're using with DP 4400 we're basically all your data is there right so you're doing your data for recovery your data for disaster recovery for replication is in a place and we're seeing a trend towards wanting to have flash nvme cache to be able to actually do instant access and restore not only for recoverability purposes for app tests and dev type applications and data sharing so that trend has already left the station and even in our mid tier products like DP 4400 well you know targeted specifically for commercial buyers and midsize organizations we're bringing that enterprise class capabilities and making it available to them to be able to leverage not only cloud but also on-premise and your cloud is you all cloud you some cloud you hire hybrid we do have a lot of on-premise we are migrating things over the years to the cloud and that's certainly going to be the trend and is that in effect or in part what's driving you to rethink how you approach data protection or how did that affect your data protection decisions I think having the capacity to touch all types of systems and services is is critical we need to be thinking not what we're doing now but we're gonna do any year five years from now and you know just looking back to the past five years it's a completely different IT environment so ok so I want to translate a little marketing into what it means for the customers but we agree oh when you guys announced with DP 4400 it was simply powerful was kind of attack okay so what is what are you looking for from the standpoint of simplicity and a same question on on on on power simplicity that you know the DP 4400 is a 2-u unit goes right in the rack it's not use of various interconnected components that you have to you know figure out how to connect it's one interface it's extremely simple and quick to deploy you know I have a very lean IT shop we don't have a lot of time a lot of people to be devoting hours and days and weeks to getting a deed protection environment set up our previous solutions we're much more complicated different interfaces always changing interfaces and they didn't really work well I need you know I need to be able to just set it and forget it it's it's an insurance policy is what it is you know when something goes wrong I need to know what's going to happen - from the moment that the disaster is to recognize - when our staff will be able to get back up and working okay and I the DP for 4,400 just makes that extremely simple okay so it's simple not just simpler know that right it's simple example and what about the powerful piece what is it what does that mean the power of having everything in one unit it's one interface you know giving me and my staff the power to do what we need to do without having to have a degree in data protection it's very simple to learn very simple to use it just works and a couple of the things Brian and I talked about earlier was really no one wants to impact production to do data protection write it like you said it's an insurance policy so the performance of the platform is really significant I think performance performance without compromising efficiency because at the end of the day cost is a big consideration especially for midsize organizations when they're buying a solution so I think it's really hey it's simple to use simple to deploy but it's powerful because you can get your stuff done in the you know a lot of times for data protection which is almost zero these days with the efficiency I got also saying really quickly that I would also presume that because every single document is so valuable and so essential power also relates to being able to sustain the organization of that day absolutely absolutely more you know going further into power as we was indicating is the is the performance of the backups the deduplication rate sending things over the over the network to our disaster recovery site very quickly very efficiently we can pull back you know do backups during business hours don't have to throttle it to just the overnight hours which those hours are you know off hours are getting fewer further between because in tax season in particular we have people working seven days a week all day so to send that data it's work needs to go in comp in a compact form doesn't prevent our staff from doing work whenever they want to want and need to be able to do it organizations increasingly focusing on the data data has more value means it's got to be protected in new ways bring in cloud requires new architectures games on is a big market you know thirty billion dollar plus ten when you add it all up rating it on a lot of people want it you're the leader congratulations guys all right thanks very much for coming on the cube Thanks all right keep it right there buddy the cube will be back from VMworld 2018 right after this short break [Music]

(intense orchestral music) >> Hi everybody this is Dave Vellante, welcome to this special CUBE presentation, where we're covering the Dell EMC Integrated Data Appliance announcement. You can see we also are running a crowd chat, it's an ask me anything crowd chat you can login with Twitter, LinkedIn, or Facebook, and ask any question. We've got Dell EMC executives, we're gonna hear from VMware executives, we've got the analyst perspective, we're gonna hear from customers and then of course we're gonna jump into the crowd chat. With me is Beth Phalen, who is the President of Dell's EMC, Dell EMCs Data Protection Division, Beth, great to see you again. >> Good to be here, Dave. >> Okay so, we know that 80% of the workloads are virtualized, we also know that when virtualization came on the scene it caused customers to really rethink their data protection strategies. Cloud is another force that's causing them to change the way in which they approach data protection, but let's start with virtualization. What are you guys doing for those virtualized customers? >> Data protection is crucial for our customers today, and more and more the vAdmins are being expected to protect their own environments. So we've been working very closely with VMware to make sure we're delivering the simplest data protection for VMware, taking into account all of the cloud capabilities that VMware is bringing to market and making sure we're protecting those as well. We have to do that without compromise, and so we have some really exciting innovations to talk about today. The first of those is the DP4400, we announced this a few weeks ago, it is a purpose-built appliance for mid-sized customers that brings forward all of our learnings from enterprise data protection, and makes it simple and easy to use, and at the right price point for our mid-sized customers. We're the extension into VMware environments and extensions into the cloud. >> Okay, so I mentioned up front that cloud is this disruptive force. You know people expect the outcome of cloud to be simplicity, ease of management, but the cloud adds IT complexity. How are you making data protection simpler for the cloud? >> And the cloud has many different ways the customers can leverage it. The two that we're gonna highlight today are for those customers that are using VMware Cloud on AWS, we're now enabling a seamless disaster recovery option, so customers can fail over to VMware Cloud on AWS for their DR configurations. And on top of that, we're very excited to talk about data protection as a service. We all know how wildly popular that is and how rapidly it's growing, and we've now integrated with VMware vCloud Director to allow customers to not have to have a separate backup as a service portal, but provide management for both their VMware environments and their data protection, all integrated within VCD. >> Okay great, so, we know that VMware of course is the leader in virtualization, we're gonna cut away for a moment and hear from VMware executives, we're gonna back here we're gonna do a deep dive, as I say we got great agenda, we're gonna explore some of these things; and then of course there's the crowd chat, the ask me anything crowd chat. So let's cut over to Palo Alto, California, in our studios over there, and let's hear from the VMware perspective and Peter Burris, take it away, Peter. (intense orchestral music) >> Thanks, Dave! And this is Peter Burris, and I can report that in fact we have another beautiful day here in California. And also, we've got a great VMware executive to talk a bit about this important announcement. Yanbing Li is the Senior Vice President and GM for the Storage and Availability Business Unit at Vmware, welcome back to theCUBE Yanbing. >> It's great to be here, thank you for having me Peter. >> Oh absolutely we've got a lot of great stuff to talk about but let's start with the obvious question. Why is it so important to VMware and Dell EMC to work on this question, data availability, data protection? >> You know I have a very simple answer for you. You know Dell EMC has been the marketing leader for the past decade, and they are also a leading solution for all of our VMware environment, it's very natural that we do a lot of collaboration with them. And what's most important, is our collaboration is not only go-to-market collaboration, in labeling our joint customers, but also deep engineering level collaboration, and that is very very exciting. Lots of our solutions are really co-engineered together. >> So, that is in service to something. And now putting all this knowledge, all this product together to create a solution, is in service of data protection but especially as it relates to spanning the cloud. So talk to us a little bit about how this is gonna make it easier for customers to be where they need to be in their infrastructure. >> Certainly VMware has been also on a journey to help with our customers, their transition from data center to the cloud, and data protection is a very crucial aspect of that; and we're looking for simpler, scalable, more robust data protection solutions. You know VMware launched our VMware Cloud on AWS service last year, and Dell EMC has been with us since day one; they're the first solution to be certified as a data protection service for VMware Cloud on AWS. We also work with 4500 VCCP partners, this is the VMware Cloud partner program partners that, you know they are building cloud services based on VMware software defined data center stack. And we are also working with Dell EMC on integrating their data protection source with vCloud, their vCloud Director software, so that you know our customer has integrated data protection for our VCCP partners. So you know across all the cloud initiatives, we are working very closely with Dell EMC. >> So bringing the best of the technology, the best of this massive ecosystem together, to help customers protect their data and give them options about where they operate their infrastructure. >> Definitely. I'm personally very excited about their recent announcement that has been to the Data Domain Virtual Edition, where they're offering a subscription-based data protection bundle that can allow a VMware Cloud on AWS instance to back up their data, you know, using a subscription model, and you can backup 96 terabytes for any single SDC cluster in VMware Cloud on AWS. So they're definitely driving a lot of innovation not only in technology, but also in consumption, how to make it easier for customers to consume. And we're excited to be a partner with Dell EMC together on this. >> Fantastic! Yanbing Li, VMware, back to you, Dave! >> Thanks, Peter. We're back for the deep dive, Beth Phalen and joining us again, and Ruya Barrett, who's the Vice President of Marketing for Dell EMC's Data Protection Division, thanks guys for coming on. Ruya, let me start with you. Why are customers, and what are they telling you, in terms of why they're acquiring your data protection solutions? >> Well, Beth talked a little bit about the engineering effort, and collaboration we've been putting in place, and so did Yanbing with VMware, so whether that's integration into vCenter, or vSphere, or vRealize Operations Manager, vRealize Automation or vCloud Director, all of this work, all of this engineering effort, and engineering hours is really to do two things: deliver simply powerful data protection for VMware customers >> But what do you mean by simple? >> Simple. Well, simple comes in two types of approaches, right? Simple is through automation. One of the things that we've done is really automate across the data protection stack for VMware. Where as 99% of the market solutions really leave it off at policy management, so they automate the policy layer. We automate not only the policy layer, but the vProxy deployment, as well as the data movement. We have five types of data movement capabilities that have been automated. Whether you're going directly from storage to protection storage, whether you're doing client to protection storage, whether you're doing application to protection storage, or whether you're doing Hypervisor Direct to application storage. So it really is to automate, and to maximize the performance of to meet the customer's service levels, so automation is critical when you're doing that. The other part of automation could be in how easy cloud is for the admins and users, it really has to do with being able to orchestrate all of the activities, you know very simply and easily. Simplicity is also management. We are hearing more and more that the admins are taking on the role of doing their backups and restores, so, our efforts with VMware have been to really simplify the management so that they can use their native tools. We've integrated with VMware for the vAdmins to be able to take backup and restore just a part of their daily operational tasks. >> So, when you talk about power, is that performance, you reference performance, but is it just performance, or is it more than that? >> That's also a great question, Dave, thank you. Power really, in terms of data protection, is three fold, it's power in making sure that you have a single, powerful solution, that really covers a comprehensive set of applications and requirements, not only for today, but also tomorrow's needs. So that comprehensive coverage, whether you're on-premise, or in the cloud is really critical. Power means performance, of course it means performance. Being able to deliver the highest performing protection, and more importantly restores, is really critical to our customers. Power also means not sacrificing efficiency to get that performance. So efficiency, we have the best source ID duplication technology in the market, that coupled with the performance is really critical to our customers. So all of these, the simplicity, the comprehensive coverage, the performance, the efficiency, also drives the lowest cost to protect for our customers. >> Alright, I wanna bring Beth Phalen into the conversation, Beth, let's talk about cloud a little bit. A lot of people feel as though I can take data, I can dump it into an object store in the cloud, and I'm protected. Your thoughts? >> Yeah, we hear that same misconception, and in fact the exact opposite is true; it's even more important that people have world class data protection when they're bringing cloud into that IT environment, they have to know where their data is, and how is protected and how to restore it. So we have a few innovations that are going on here for a long time, we've had our hyper cloud extensions, you can do cloud tiering directly from Data Domain. And now we've also extended what you can do if you're a VMware Cloud on AWS customer, so that you can use that for you cloud DR configuartion, fail over to AWS with VMware Cloud, and then fail back with vMotion if you choose to; and that's great for customers who don't wanna have a second site, but they do wanna have confidence that they can recover if there's a disaster. On top of that we've also been doing some really great with VMware, with vCloud Director integration. Data protection as a service is growing like crazy, it's highly popular around the globe as a way to consume data protection. And so now you can integrate both your VMware tasks, and your data protection tasks, from one UI in the Cloud Director. These are just a few of the things that we're doing, comprehensively bringing data protection to the cloud, is essential. >> Great, okay. Dell EMC just recently made an announcement, the IDPA DP4400, Ruya what's it all about? Explain. >> Absolutely, so, what we announced is really an integrated data protection appliance, turnkey, purpose-built, to meet the specific requirements of mid-sized customers, it's really, to bring that enterprise sensibility and protection to our mid-sized customers. It's all inclusive in terms of capabilities, so if you're talking about backup, restore, replication, disaster recovery, cloud disaster recovery, and cloud long-term retention, all at your fingertips, all included; as well as all of the capabilities we talked about in terms of enabling VM admins to be able to do all of their daily tasks and operations through their own native tools and UI's. So it's really all about bringing simply powerful protection to mid-sized customers at the lowest cost to protect. And we now also have a guarantee under our future proof loyalty program, we are introducing a 55 to one deduplication guarantee for those exact customers. >> Okay. Beth, could you talk about the motivation for this product? Why did you build it, and why is relevant to mid-sized customers? >> So we're known as number one in enterprise data protection we're known for our world-class dedupe, best in class, best in the world dedupe capabilities. And what we've done is we've taken the learnings and the IP that we have that's served enterprise customers for all of these years, and then we're making that accessible to mid-sized customers And there were so many companies out there that can take advantage of our technology that maybe couldn't before these announcements. So by building this, we've created a product that a mid-sized company, may have a small IT staff, like I said at the beginning, may have VM admins who are also responsible for data protection, that they can have what we bring to the market with best-in-class data protection. >> I wanna follow up with you on simple and powerful. What is your perspective on simple, what does it mean for customers? >> Yeah, I mean if you break it down, simple means simple to deploy, two times faster than traditional data protection, simple means easier to manage with modern HTML5 interfaces that include the data protection day-to-day tasks, also include reporting. Simple means easy to grow, growing in place from 24 terabytes up to 96 terabytes with just a simple software license to add in 12 terabyte increments. So all of those things come together to reduce the amount of time that an IT admin has to spend on data protection. >> So, when I hear powerful and here mid-sized customers, I'm thinking okay I wanna bring enterprise-class data protection down to the mid-sized organization. Is that what you means? Can you actually succeed in doing that? >> Yeah. If I'm an IT admin I wanna make sure that I can protect all of my data as quickly and efficiently as possible. And so, we have the broadest support matrix in the industry, I don't have to bring in multiple products to support protection on my different applications, that's key, that's one thing. The other thing is I wanna be able to scale, and I don't wanna have to be forced to bring in new products with this you have a logical five terabytes on-prem, you can grow to protecting additional 10 terabytes in the cloud, so that's another key piece of it, scalability. >> Petabytes, sorry. >> And then-- >> Sorry. Petabytes-- >> Petabytes. >> You said terabytes. (laughs) >> You live in a petabyte world! >> Of course, yes, what am I thinking. (all laugh) and then last but not least, it's just performance, right? This runs on a 14GB PowerEdge server; you're gonna get the efficiency, you can protect five times as many VMs as you could without this kind of product. So, all of those things come together with power, scalability, support matrix, and performance. >> Great, thank you. Okay, Ruya, let's talk about the business impact. Start with this IT operations person, what does it mean for that individual? >> Yeah, absolutely. So first, you're gonna get your weekends back, right? So, the product is just faster, we talked about it's simpler, you're not gonna have to get a PhD on how to do data protection, to be able to do your business. You're gonna enable your vAdmins to be able to take on some of the tasks. So it's really about freeing up your weekends, having that you know sound mind that data protection's just happening, it works! We've already tried and tested this with some of the most crucial businesses, with the most stringent service-level requirements; it's just gonna work. And, by the way, you're gonna look like a hero, because with this 2U appliance, you're gonna be able to support 15 petabytes across the most comprehensive coverage in the data center, so your boss is gonna think your just a superhero. >> Petabytes. >> Yeah exactly, petabytes, exactly. (all laugh) So it's tremendous for the IT user, and also the business user. >> By the way, what about the boss? What about the line of business, what does it mean to that individual? >> So if I'm the CEO or the CIO, I really wanna think about where am I putting my most skilled personnel? And my most skilled personnel, especially as IT is becoming so core to the business, is probably not best served doing data protection. So just being able to free up those resources to really drive applications or initiatives that are driving revenue for the business is critical. Number two, if I'm the boss, I don't wanna overpay for data protection. Data protection is insurance for the business, you need it, but you don't wanna overpay for it. So I think that lowest cost is a really critical requirement The third one is really minimizing risk and compliance issues for the business. If I have the sound mind, and the trust that this is just gonna work, then I'm gonna be able to recover my business no matter what the scenario; and that it's been tried and true in the biggest accounts across the world. I'm gonna rest assured that I have less exposure to my business. >> Great. Ruya, Beth, thank you very much, don't forget, we have an ask me anything crowd chat at the end of this session, so you can go in, login with Twitter, LinkedIn, or Facebook, and ask any question. Alright, let's take a look at the product, and then we're gonna come back and get the analysts perspective, keep it right there. (intense music) >> Organizations today, especially mid-sized organizations, are faced with increased complexity; driving the need for data protection solutions that enable them to do more with less. The Dell EMC IDPA DP4400 packages the proven enterprise class technologies that have made us the number one provider in data protection into a converged appliance specifically designed for mid-sized organizations. While other solutions sacrifice power in the name of simplicity, the IDPA DP4400 delivers simply powerful data protection. The IDPA DP4400 combines protection software and storage, search and analytics, and cloud readiness, in one appliance. To save you time and money, we made it simple for you to deploy and upgrade, and, easily grow in place without disruption, adding capacity with simple license upgrades without buying more hardware. Data protection management is also a snap with the IDPA System Manager. IDPA is optimized for VMware data protection. It is also integrated with vSphere, SQL, and Oracle, to enable a wider IT audience to manage data protection. The IDPA DP4400 provides protection across the largest application ecosystem, deliver breakneck backup speeds, more efficient network usage, and unmatched 55 to one average deduplication. The IDPA DP400 is natively extensible to the cloud for long-term retention. And, also enables simple, and cost effective cloud disaster recovery. Deduplicated data is stored in AWS with minimal footprint, with failover to AWS and failback to on-premises quickly, easily, and cost effectively. The IDPA DP4400 delivers all this at the lowest cost-to-protect. It includes a three year satisfaction guarantee, as well as an up to 55 to one data protection deduplication guarantee. The Dell EMC IDPA DP4400 provides backup, replication, deduplication, search, analytics, instant access for application testing and development, as well as DR and long-term retention to the cloud. Everything you need to deliver enterprise-class data protection, in a small integrated system, optimized for mid-sized environments. It's simply powerful. (upbeat music and rhythmic claps) >> Cool video! Alright, we're back, with Vinny Choinski, who is the Senior Analyst for the Validation Practice at ESG, Enterprise Strategy Group. ESG is a company that does a lot of research, and one of the areas is they have these lab reports, and they basically validate vendor claims, it's an awesome service, they've had it for a number of years and Vinny is an expert in this area. Vinny Choinski, welcome to theCUBE great to see you. >> How you doin' Dave? Great to see you. >> So, when you talk to customers they tell you they hate complexity, first of all, and specifically in the context of data protection, they want high performance, they don't wanna have to mess with this stuff, and they want low cost. What are you seeing in the marketplace? >> So our research is lining up with those challenges; and that's why I've recently done three reports. We talked to how EMC is addressing those challenges and how they are making it easier, faster, and less expensive to do data protection. >> So people don't wanna do a lot of heavy lifting. They worry about the time it takes to do deployment. So, what did you find, hands on, what'd you find with regards to deployment? >> Yeah, so for the deployment, we really yeah, we focused on the DP4400 and you know how that's making it easier for the IT generalist to do data protection deployment, and management. And what we did, I actually walked through the whole process from the delivery truck to first backup. We had it off the truck and racked up and powered up in about 30 minutes, so, it's a service sized appliance, pretty easy, easy to install. Spent 10 minutes in the server room kinda configuring it to the network, and then we went up to an office, and finished the configuration. After that I basically hit go on the configuration button, completely automated. And I simply monitored the process until the appliance was fully configured. Took me about 20 minutes, you know, to add that configuration to the appliance, hit go, and at the end, I had an appliance that was ready for on-site, and backups extended to the cloud. >> So, that met your expectations? It meshed with the vendors claims? >> It was real easy. We actually had to move it around a couple times, and you know, this stuff used to be huge you know, big box, metal gear. >> Refrigerators. (laughs) >> Refrigerators. It was a small appliance, once we installed it, got a note from the IT guy, had to move it. No tools, easy rack, the configuration was automated. We had to set network parameters, that's about it. >> How about your performance testing, what did that show? >> So we did some pretty extensive performance testing. We actually compared the IDPA Dell appliances to the industry recognized server grid scaled architecture. And basically we started by matching the hardware parameters of the box, CPU, memory, disk, network, flash, so once we had the boxes configured apples to apples shall we say, we ran a rigorous set of tests. We scaled the environment from a hundred to a thousand VMs, adding a hundred VMs in between each backup run. And what we found as we were doing the test was that the IDPA reduced the backup window significantly over the competitive solution. A 54 to 68% reduction in the backup window. >> Okay. So again, you're kind of expectations tied into the vendor claims? >> Yep. You know the reduction in backup time was pretty significant that's a pretty good environment, pretty good test environment, right, you got the hundred to a thousand VMs. We also looked at the efficiency of data transfer, and we found that IDPA outperformed the competitor there as well, significantly. And we found that this is do to the the mature data domain deduplication technology. It not only leverages, like most companies will, the VMware Changed Block Tracking API, but it has it's own client-side software that really reduces, significantly reduces the amount of data that needs to be transferred over the network for each backup. And we found that reduced the amount of data that needs to be transferred against the competitor by 74%. >> What about the economics, it's the one of the key paying points obviously for IT professionals. What did you see there? >> Yep, so, there's a lot that goes into the economics of a data protection environment. We summed it up into what we call the cost to protect. We actually collected call home data from 15,000 Dell EMC data protection appliances deployed worldwide. >> Oh cool, real data. >> Real data. So, we had the real data, we got it from 15,000 different environments, we took that data and we we used some of the stuff that we analyzed, the price that they paid for it, how long has it been in service, what the deduplication rates they're getting, and then the amount of data. So we had all the components that told us what was happening with that box. So that allowed us to to distill that into this InstaGraphic that we see up here, which takes 12, shows 12 of the customers that we analyzed. Different industries, different architectures, on the far left of this InstaGraphic you're gonna see that we had a data domain box connected to a third-party backup application, still performing economically, quite well. On the far right we have the fully integrated IDPA solution, you'll see that as you put things better together, the economics get even better, right? So, what we found was that both data domain and the IDPA can easily serve data protection environments storage for a fraction of a penny per month. >> Okay. Important to point out this is metadata, no customer data involved here, right, it's just. >> It's metadata that's correct. >> Right, okay. Summarize your impressions based on your research, and your hands on lab work. >> Yeah, so I've been doing this for almost 25 plus years, I've been in the data protection space, I was an end user, I actually ran backup environments, I worked in the reseller space, sold the gear, and now I'm an analyst with ESG, taking a look at all the different solutions that are out there, and, you know data protection has never been easy, and there's always a lot of moving parts, and it gets harder when you really need a solution that backs up everything, right? From your physical, virtual, to the cloud, the legacy stuff, right? Dell EMC has packaged this up, in my opinion, quite well. They've looked at the economics, they've looked at the ease of use, they've looked at the performance, and they've put the right components in there they have the data protection software, they have the target storage, they have the analytics, you can do it with an agent, you can do it without an agent. So I think they've put all the pieces in here, so it's not an easy thing in my opinion, and I think they've nailed this one. >> Excellent. Well Vinny, thanks so much for for comin' on and sharing the results of your research, really appreciate it. Alright, let's hear from the customer, and then we're gonna come back with Beth Phalen and wrap, keep it right there. (upbeat techno music) >> I was a fortune 500 company, a global provider of product solutions and services, and enterprise computing solutions. The DP4400 is attractive because customers have different consumption models. There are those that like to build their own, and there are those that want an integrated solution, they want to focus on their core business as opposed to engineering a solution. So for those customers that are looking for that type of experience, the DP4400 will address a full data protection solution that has a single pane of glass, simplified management, simplified deployment, and also, ease-of-management over time. >> Vollrath is a food service industry manufacturer, it's been in business for 144 years, in some way we probably touch your life everyday. From a semantic perspective, things that weren't meeting our needs really come around to the management of all of your backup sets. We had backup windows for four to eight hours, and we were to the point where when those backups failed, which was fairly regular, we didn't have enough time to run them again. With Dell EMC data protection, we're getting phenomenal returns, shorter times. What took us eight hours is taking under an hour, maybe it's upwards of two at times for even larger sets. It's single interface, really does help. So when you take into account how much time you spend trying to manage with old solutions that's another unparalleled piece. >> I'm the IT Director for Melanson Heath, we are a full service accounting firm. The top three benefits of the DP4400 simplicity of not having to do a lot of research, the ease of deployment, not having to go back or have external resources, it's really designed so that I can rack it, stack it, and get going. Having a data protection solution that works with all of my software and systems is vital. We are completely reliant on our technology infrastructure, and we need to know that if something happens, we have a plan B, that can be deployed quickly and easily. (upbeat techno music) >> We're back, it's always great to hear the customer perspective. We're back with Beth Phalen. Beth let's summarize, bring it home for us, this announcement. >> We are making sure that no matter what the size of your organization, you can protect your data in your VMware environment simply and powerfully without compromise, and have confidence, whether you're on-prem or in the cloud, you can restore your data whenever you need to. >> Awesome, well thanks so much Beth for sharing the innovations, and we're not done yet, so jump into the crowd chat, as I said, you can log in with Twitter, LinkedIn, or Facebook, ask any questions, we're gonna be teeing up some questions and doing some surveys. So thanks for watching everybody, and we'll see you in the crowd chat.

(techno music) >> Announcer: Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE. Covering Dell Technologies World 2018. Brought to you by Dell EMC and its Ecosystem Partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE, we are live on day one is Las Vegas, of Dell Technologies World. I'm Lisa Martin with Dave Vellante. And we have a couple guests joining us now. We've got Ruya Barrett, the VP of Product Marketing for Data Protection at Dell EMC. Welcome back to theCUBE. >> Thank you. >> Lisa: And we've also got Kerry "KJ" Johnson from FieldCore, you are a senior systems engineer. Welcome, KJ. >> Thank you very much. >> So, KJ, we'll start with you. Tell us a little bit about FieldCore. I know you're a GE company but what is it about FieldCore that you guys do that makes you unique and how are you working with Dell EMC? >> Okay, so FieldCore is a global service provider in the power services sector. Our customers are governments and large countries. We service and build power plants all over the world. We're in the power generation business. So, anything that generates power. That could be wind, it could be water, it could be traditional oil and gas, it could be nuclear, anything that generates power. Basically, what FieldCore does is we service it, and we keep the lights on around the world, especially in, we're in 92 countries. So, other countries don't have the infrastructure that the United States has and experience outages a little more frequently than us. So our job is to get the power back on as quickly and as efficiently as possible. >> So last fall in the U.S. we were slammed with a lot of natural disasters, including Hurricane Irma. You guys at FieldCore had a critical situation last fall when that hurricane struck. Tell us about that, and how working with Dell EMC Technologies you were able to recover. >> Okay, so last year, they changed the forecast on Hurricane Irma from coming up the east coast of the state to coming up the west coast. And they were projecting it to hit the Tampa Bay area, which put all of our production systems directly in its path. So with them projecting the storm to hit us within about three to four days, we weren't prepared for it. I was on a call with all of the directors, and they asked me, what was our level of preparedness for this storm. So I told them that as far as data protection, we had replication, that was fine. We were replicating all of our SAP, Oracle, databases, all of our email via Exchange and file systems, to our data recovery center that was in Atlanta, via Dell EMC RecoverPoint appliances, so that was fine. We had a recovery point objective of less than two minutes. We could go back two minutes and be up and running. The problem was, had the storm hit us, and we had to then throw over and go live at our DR facility in Atlanta because Tampa was down, we wouldn't have any way to have backups during that time that we were live. So that was a gap that I identified. They subsequently asked me, is there something that could be done in three days- >> Dave: Got any magic beans? >> Yeah, exactly, so I'm going, I'll do everything in my power to make something happen. So basically I got on the phone and called my Dell EMC Data Protection rep, Matthew Sattler. And he was actually at a Dell management boot camp in Boston I believe, at the headquarters. And he actually took my call. He snuck out of the meeting and answered the call, which was an all-day meeting, which was, that enabled us to do what we did. He offered a solution that we could actually use virtual appliances, because we had not rolled out our DR equipment yet, it was wasn't even scheduled to be delivered for two weeks. So he shored up the licensing, he called a sales engineer, who got in touch with me, his name was Dominic Greco, he's based out of Pittsburgh, great guy. He lined up all of the resources. I got my resources together, and we put a plan together, and we actually had the project started by the end of that first day. >> Just another day at the factory. >> Hey, you know, our customers call us and we answer. That's how it works. >> So, it's common scenario for you guys? >> I think we had an exceptional team on the account, so exceptional teams always make a huge difference, and I think in this case, we definitely had a great team. And I think one of the things that KJ talked about, is how flexible the software-defined data protection approach can be. I think sometimes people think of us as an infrastructure company, infrastructure meaning hardware predominantly, but our data protection capabilities are just as robust on the software-defined data center front. So I think the flexibility of being able to do DR, and put in place a DR environment, that gave KJ all that flexibility, is really a testament to the software capabilities. >> So could we just kind of review exactly what happened? So, if I understand it correctly, you were concerned about the exposure on your remote site, right? You're going to fail over, RPO of only two minutes, so you're going to lose, maybe exposed to two minutes of data loss, you can live with that in business, right, understood that, you communicate it. But then you have no way to back up that failover site. >> KJ: Yeah. >> And so, the team came in and what, you you accelerated a DR project that was sort of in the pipeline? >> Exactly, we had hardware that was scheduled to be delivered to Atlanta, and be deployed within two weeks, but we didn't have the two weeks. >> Ruya: Three days. >> So our DR facility was still running on a legacy product, and that wouldn't work for us, because all of our production data was backed up to data domain and it's not interoperable. So, we went with the virtual appliances, and we deployed a virtual data domain, a virtual Avamar appliance, running Dell EMC Data Protection Software Suite, and an NDMP Accelerator, I always have trouble with that one, for our file systems, and by the end of the day, they were deployed and we were already starting the replication. >> So in this situation did you do you failover proactively, or you just wait for the disaster to hit? What's the- >> Well, the thing was just to be prepared. So, the storm was projected to hit Saturday. Day two, was Thursday, and we convened the conference call, an indefinite conference call, that means I was going to be on it, all of Dell EMC's people were going to be on it, until either we finished, or the storm blew us away. So we monitored the replication all Thursday and by like 6:45 that evening, all of the data had replicated over to the DR, and the next day, the office had closed early so people could go home and hunker down for the storm, look after their families and their property, and we kept the call going from home, but the data had finished by that evening. And the storm hit, started coming around midnight that evening on Saturday. So, fortunately, the storm only hit us as a weak Category 1, so we never even had to throw over to it, but had it hit us as a Category 3, we would have been very much in trouble, had we, weren't able to accomplish that. >> So I wanted to get, kind of an idea KJ, in terms of what is the business impact that you've been able to achieve? You've obviously had to accelerate this part of your security transformation, which you were able to do, what's the business impact that your bosses, and their bosses in the C-suite, at FieldCore, have seen as a result of being able to have the agility, with Dell EMC to implement this so quickly? >> Well, some of the things that came into play with the setup that we had with Dell EMC, one was the Data Protection Suite encompasses everything, hardware, software, licensing, replication, it's all one suite of things. It's not nickel and dime add-ons or bolt-ons, it's one full protection suite. So the package that we had, Matt said, "You already have this package", you know, there's nothing to buy, there was no charge for any of the resources rolling it out because we were on a, what's called a utility mode of billing, and it's basically, it's like instead of a CapEx expenditure, where we buy hardware, we don't buy anything, they bring it out for free, they install it for free, as soon as we start backing up, okay, how much deduplicated data do you have on a data domain? We'll bill you for it. And they send us a bill every month. So that helped us out. >> And you know the data domain efficiency quotient is just through the roof, it's one of the best platforms for dedupe, so it really helps our customers, especially when you're talking about a utility-base model as well, that efficiency, that architecture, that really brings that to bear. >> Dave: What do you call this utility model? >> This utility, it's the utility model, it's just one of our consumption models. It's the flexible consumption models that we offer across data protection software, as well as our platforms. >> So it's a pay by the drink? >> Ruya: Yeah absolutely. >> Now, I'm interested in the ripple effects, and I don't know your business well enough, but it sounds like, not only were you covered, but had a Category 3 hit, your customers, there would've been a ripple effect here to your customers, around the world, 92 countries I think you said. Is that right or is it, is this not a real-time business? >> Well, our users, the vast majority of them, are field technicians, they're field service guys. >> Dave: Oh. They work on turbines, they work on boilers, they work on nuclear plants, they're out in the field. They work on windmills. So they're not very technical people, but all of the laptops that they carry and hook up to this equipment, feeds equipment into our systems, and our systems can't go down. So, the impact would've been pretty great had our systems been offline for any amount of time, because when your global you know, there's really no good time to be down. When I'm sleeping, there's people busting their butts in other countries and you know, middle production hours. >> So last question here Ruya, to you, on this theme of Dell Technologies World, of make it real, KJ you've done a great job articulating how you've been leveraging your partnership as well as the technology, to make your security transformation a reality. Ruya, last question to you is, there was a recent ESG study on IT maturity, can you share with us some of the impacts there that you've seen, and how it kind of relates to FieldCore? >> Yeah, absolutely, be happy to. So we just recently unveiled a study we did with ESG, where we surveyed 4,000 customers, IT professionals, over 16 countries. And it really had to do with the IT transformation maturity curve, and their adoption. And one of the things that was really interesting is customer feedback, was that transformed companies, that have gone through this massive IT transformation, are perceived to be 16 times more innovative, be 2 1/2 times more competitive, perceived as being 2 1/2 times more competitive, and six times more apt to have IT as part of the business decision-making process. And data protection was one of the top areas of this transformation as well, because it's so critical. As data's moving out of the data center and becoming more distributed, we talked about the distributed core today, going to the edge with IOT, and all of those types of applications, there is this massive amount of data moving out, outside of the data center. So data's growing, it's moving out, and it's also becoming more and more critical for customers. So data protection, that recoverability, operational recoverability, disaster recoverability, cyber recovery, are becoming more and more critical. And there was three things in the maturity curve on data protection. Transformed companies are basically protecting data in five types of different applications. So they're not really looking at just physical protection, which a lot of legacy companies are still kind of stuck at physical, and maybe virtual, and starting to really do a lot more on virtual. These guys are looking at data protection across distributed environments, they're looking at public cloud, they're looking at hybrid cloud, they're looking at physical, virtual, so very comprehensive. So that was number one. Two, is really self-service models. Transformed companies, that have gone through IT transformation for their data protection have enabled application owners to be able to do self-service. So that has become a part of how they offer data protection. And the last one was really about automation and automated policies. So when you add a virtual machine, when you bring in a new system, how do you automatically apply policies, so protection isn't something that needs to happen as a backend consideration? And I think KJ talked about some of those things as well. And they're doing a self-service model as part of what they're rolling out, as well as the automated protection policies. So I think they're well on their way to transformation, and this is what makes it great, in terms of the partnership we have with our customers. >> Well thank you both so much for stopping by, sharing, KJ the great successes that you've had with that one very, very potent example, Ruya thanks for stopping by and sharing with us that data protection continues to be hot, hot, hot. >> And thanks for having us again. Thank you, nice seeing you guys. >> Our pleasure. We want to thank you, you're watching theCUBE live, day one, Dell Technologies World in Las Vegas, stick around. I'm Lisa Martin with Dave Vellante. We'll be back after a short break. (techno music)

>> Announcer: Live from Austin, Texas. It's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2017 Brought to you by Red Hat, the Linux Foundation and theCUBE's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, everyone. This is a special live coverage here in Austin, Texas with theCUBE with KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. I'm John Furrier with my co-host Stew Minniman. Our next guests Mike Barrett, senior project manager at Red Hat and Brian Gracely, director of strategy, Red Hat. Guys, welcome to theCUBE. Welcome back, Brian. >> Thanks. >> Thanks. >> Alright, so Red Hat. I was at re:Invent last week and they want the Red Hat stamp of approval. A lot of customers, you guys have had a huge track record in all the large enterprises. Tier 1, now with cloud gain What's going on? OpenShift has been a big momentum point for you guys Give us the update. What's the status? How are you guys taking that Red Hat stamp of approval value with OpenShift? >> Well, even if we just start from where AWS was, so we were there last week. We're seeing a ton of customers who were Red Hat enterprise Linux customers picking that up, moving it into AWS. So we're seeing that footprint migrate, which is great. We had a huge announcement with AWS around extending their services back into OpenShift through what we call the open service broker. So, basically, think about putting AWS services in your data center or at least making it virtually look like your data center. Those things themselves are huge 'cause now customers don't have to say "Is it like all cloud, public cloud, "or all private cloud?" It's like hybrid cloud is there today, right now. >> Yeah. This started for us back in 2015 I remember the first five minutes of every customer conversation was "How do you pronounce Kubernetes?" >> John: (laughs) >> And 2016 was pretty much your choice of "How do I use containers?" And then the tail end of 2016, it got exciting, right? People were doing big numbers on deployments. 2017 was an unbelievable year for us. I mean, you name the market sector we have penetrated it pretty deeply with Kubernetes technologies, so it's been a great year. >> You guys have been really, Brian, I remember when we were working together I remember, what? Three or four years ago cloud-native we were kicking it around. We were joking with Lou Tucker earlier, "Hey, three years ago. Remember in Vancouver in open stack, when we were talking about how this could really be the land grab? And we were kind of pontificating. But I got to ask you specifically, you were early on cloud-native. You guys certainly saw it coming, as you always, always do in Red Hat, but what changed in your mind? What surprised you? What happened? You kind of called it out. It played out almost exactly as you said. Are you surprised that cloud-native and the whole pass folding into... How did it turn out in your mind? >> I think what it was and it is a little bit of a surprise 'cause you're trying to think what's going to happen in the future. I think what ended up happening and we hear this from pretty much every customer is we're going to change what our user experience is going to be. So if you're Hilton Hotels today, your user experience is a mobile phone with a digital key. Those folks are using Kubernetes We're seeing banks using Kubernetes, airlines, trains. All of them are like I want to be mobile I want my user experience to be better than it was before. I want to deal with like spikes in demand and stuff. What's been really surprising is, you would've thought okay, those aren't Silicon Valley companies, but all of those companies are using Kubernetes. So the technology, the community has made it simple to use. They've adopted containers like crazy. Which has been, we've seen a little bit of that with docker but it's accelerated. That's been the big trend we've seen. People want to change their customer experience, and containers make it easier and Kubernetes makes it scalable. >> Mike, I got to get your take on this, because he's bringing up a good point about the mobile phone. Software is now the product of the company. No one goes into a bank anymore, there's tellers around sure, but the app is the interface. The software is the product. >> Mike: It is. >> It's not IT anymore. It's actually a whole new business model. I mean it sounds cliche but that's actually happening. >> Mike: For OpenShift, it's always been about developer velocity even before it was about Kubernetes. It was about helping people bring new ideas to market through software. And the interesting thing about a CADs and a PASs and that debate in the industry on which would survive. Our take was that, you can build whatever you want, if you have the right technologies and the right solution and that you shouldn't have to make that choice. If you want to just launch containers, then just launch containers. If you want to developer experience, have that developer experience, but they're not two different things. >> One of the things that's been beaten around for the last couple of years is customers want to have really, as much of the same stack in their own data center as they have in the cloud. You know talked about Brian start talking about Linux everywhere. Of course Linux is everywhere. It's been very prevalent at the edge. How much of that stack needs to be the same? How much is okay different? How does Kubernetes fit into that? Mike maybe we can start with you. >> For Kubernetes, we've been asked a lot. How do we feel about the announcements of all the cloud providers now offering to manage Kubernetes service, and we love it. There are certain like Uber and Lyft. I'm sure Uber wishes Lyft wasn't there, but in a platform technology space. You want people to gravitate towards the technology. And now that we have that debate over and so many people are offering Kubernetes. People are willing to move forward with their careers around that Kubernetes. They're willing to bring their whole clientele and their corporations to Kubernetes, and we are in a good early adopter, early mover position to really help them with that. >> Explain that a little bit more because before if I wanted Kubernetes, well I could go get OpenShift. Where cater platform, that's Kubernetes but I'm using Azure, if I'm using Google Cloud, I'm using AWS. Where do you fit? Where do they fit? How does that relationship work. >> So it's a container platform right, and containers are movable images. The thing that people forget about is part of the trick of working with containers is how do you introduce change? We just talked about how we have to introduce developer velocity. You need a hook in front of it and a user experience in front of it that helps you deal with these containers. Build them, deploy them, wake up when they change, connected to the GitHub code repositories. All these different scenarios. Kubernetes is an engine and you can put it in a truck or you can put it in a Ferrari, and we just happen to put it in OpenShift. >> I got to ask you guys, what of the point about the whole industry comes and pass all this stuff. It's interesting, you guys didn't take the bait in that debate and one of the things I said at re:Invent. Brian I'd like to get your thoughts on this question too is I said at re:Invent to Andy Jazzy. Look all the fudd around cloud specifically Amazon has been debunked. It never happened and we just kept on executing. My point was, if you pay attention to the fudd and their rhetoric in the industry, and not be practical about what's going on. You can loose sight of the value groups, so I got to ask you the question. What has been debunked about OpenShift? I'll give you a chance to say it because I've heard over the years. We've heard many come oh, OpenShift. Share your thoughts because now we have enough history say look at, you're successful. You got great customers. What's been debunked all that fudd? >> I think when it comes down to is there's a lot of companies who get wrapped up in our technology is going to change the world. You need to adapt to our technology, whether it was a platform or a container thing. We got humbled. We got humbled about three or four years ago because the original OpenShift while it was great, it was simple for developers. Just was not getting the adoption that we wanted. We made a huge choice to say we're going Kubernetes. That was crazy back then. Now it was crazy to think you were going to partner with Google, who had never done Open Source in the open before. They were a cloud, we were a software provider like but we wanted the technology hook, line and sinker, and then we were really pragmatic with customers. Mike spends a huge amount of his time, going out and talking to customers going what do you want to do. I think when you do that and Amazon is the same way right, Andy says the same thing like listen to your customers. When you listen to customers, they tell you their problems and you're not religious about the technology and you're willing to make changes like that's how you can be successful and ultimately that's how OpenShift evolved. We embraced Kubernetes when the other thing wasn't working and now it's given us a huge advantage. >> Mike give us some color to that because you guys didn't get caught up with OpenShift into trying to line up with the industry rhetoric at the time. You just got down and dirty, and I bet on Kubernetes, by the way great bet. Hey what are customer's saying? What are the (indistinct speaking) workers? When customers talk, they don't say I want a pass layer. They don't say that but what do they say? How did you get there? >> At the end of the day, it's true that they want a application right. They want a service, they wanted to deploy a service, but the nuance to that is that how you deliver the platform will dictate the application or architecture that you're allowed to have. And what was happening in the market at the time it was a very narrow scope or types of apps that they were trying to provide. What we found was that we have a very large green field environment in those customers that are revenue generating apps. And they had a different application pattern than this micro services and this pure cloud-native. You always want to be able to do both, and we were the only one in the market that was helping you do both. Great and less super, congratulations. I want to get that out, I think you guys have a great accomplishment that's good job with the two days at good spot. Results, obviously is what they are but going forward where are we today. What's next? What's happening? I heard in the key note. I didn't hear several. I heard pluggable architectures and I heard service mesh. Okay you got my attention, what does that mean? I actually wrote down service mesh. So now that's the big thing. Is it going to redefine, reimagine? So these are cool concepts, how did that relate to OpenShift? >> Well from a pluggable perspective right, there was a time when people said, "I want to build a structure platform, "make it simple to get stuff." That model is blown up. That's where Kubernetes is gone. Make everything composable right, if you want like OpenShift brings together a lot but it's pluggable. You can integrate with a ton of the people that are here for customer choice, and then what we're learning is people are saying I'm learning how to build these distributed applications. I'm learning how to build them. But I need help, it's very hard to translate what you can do in Silicon Valley to what you can do in Cleveland or Austin or Boston or something. And so things like service meshes and STO and all these things are basically saying let me give you enough of a framework to build these cool applications. Don't make your developers have to do so much. Build some things into Kubernetes. Build them around this distributor architecture. Make it easier so that when the business goes, "Hey I want to try something new." developers don't go, aww I got to reinvent the wheel. It's like, oh there's a bunch of scaffolding there. I can build a building from that. >> And you guys have a product there, a state of the art. >> We do, obviously everything we do is going to be upstream. So we've been working very heavily with STO. We've been working with Onvoy which is coming out of Lyft. That's the cool thing right. Technology coming out of Lyft is now in the open source community. We can use it to help banks. We can use it to help insurance companies, like that's what's going on there. >> Mike one of the things we were looking at coming to this show is talk about complexity in the space. So many projects, how do you balance having an opinionated solution that hopefully helps customers through some of the main things verses giving them the flexibility to meet what their business needs. >> Yeah I think Brian touched on it and that's at the essence why Kubernetes is so successful as an open source community. If you look at any component of it, it is layerable, it's pluggable, it has defined APIs and interfaces where you can remove stuff. And that allows different businesses to come in and be extremely successful in the ecosystem without taking out the entire platform. And that API compatibility, those folks are what we look for and what we're offering to our customers. If our customer is invested in say NSX networking. They can use NSX networking with OpenShift. There's just a variability of mix and match. I think the last 12 months, 18 months have told us like opinionated, went too far. I mean essentially everybody who's made announcement on Kubernetes said, yeah we tried opinionated, didn't work. And that's where we are today, people have come back around to composable and we've seen it for three or four years, and that's what customer's want. They want it to be simpler but they still want some flexibility whether it's a vendor they want to work with or just a deployment model they want to work with. So you guys probably have more customers than almost anyone in this space. Any trends or data you can share as to what are the most success customers doing. What pitfalls should you avoid? >> The leading sectors for us so far has been government surprisingly, we provide an SE Linux layer on top that most people don't and that's very attracting to those types of customers. After that financial services, insurance industry in particular. Pharmaceutical type, an awesome trend right now is the energy around Kubernetes for HPC and GPU type computing. That's attracting oil and gas, that's attracting marketing analysis. >> Yeah there's a bunch around planes, trains and automobiles and here's what's cool about it. We'll look at BMW. BMW was working on next generation apps in their cars and then we look at Volvo, and Volvo is looking at how do you modernize their existing supply chain to be able to either just have a better sales experience. So same industry attacking different parts of their install base and so forth. So that for us has been really interesting. One day, you'll talk to a company that wants to build a mobile app and reshape their interface. And the next time, the next one wants to rebuild their back office system and that's what OpenShift has been able to do and have been successful. >> Mike Barrett, Brian Gracely, thanks for coming on theCUBE. Great to have you on. Obviously Red Hat continues to be a leader in open source, everyone contributed across the board. From day one and great success on OpenShift. Good bet on Kubernetes. >> Thank you. >> Nice to see those bets come home isn't it. >> Absolutely. >> (indistinct speaking) meet a lot of naysayers at the beginning. Love Kubernetes, good job, congratulations. Live coverage here at KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. I'm John Furrier. Stew Minniman live. After this short break, be right back. (uptempo techno music)

>> Announcer: Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE covering VMworld 2017 brought to you by VMware and its ecosystem partners. >> Hi, welcome back to theCUBE live from VMworld day one, really exciting day that we're having so far. I'm Lisa Martin with my co-host Dave Vellante and we're joined by a CUBE alumni and a new CUBE guest. Welcome back to theCUBE Ruya Barrett, Senior Director of Product Marketing at Dell EMC. >> Thank you, thanks for having me. >> Good to have you here and we also want to welcome Mark Wiseley, the CIO of Palmer Chiropractic College, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you, it's great to be here. >> It's great to have you guys. So one of the things we were talking about before we went live is backup. Is backup back? Is backup sexy again? It's hot, why is backup so hot, Ruya? >> Oh my god, yeah, it is. I started years ago and I was in data protection and got forward 20 years, it's back in data protection. It's hotter than ever. In the last six years, I think there's been over 5 billion dollars invested in this space whether from venture capital or big companies and it's hot because of what's happening in the customer's environment. We see a huge restructuring of data centers. So before data used to be in a couple of locations that we called data center and now it's really much more about centers of data, data is moving out of the four walls, moving closer to where decision making is which is with the business, out in the geos so it's moving to the edge and also just cloud. Cloud is really - and cloud deployments are really reshaping where customer's data is so now that data's no longer in a building. How do you secure it? How do you protect it? Where is it? Who owns it? Those are becoming more and more prevalent questions. So that's why backup is sexier than ever. >> So is that what's - What are the drivers for you in terms of your backup? I mean, what keeps you up at night? You wake up in the morning, what are you thinking about in the backup context? >> Well, for us, you know, it's really about not having to think about it, you know, making sure you've got a solid solution that's there to backup that data and make sure it's available when you need it and where you need it and the Dell EMC product we put in place gave us that opportunity where we can backup our servers, our desktops, our laptops, it doesn't matter whether they're offsite or onsite. They can be anywhere, it gets backed up quickly and it doesn't interfere with what they're doing. Users don't want to be interrupted with a backup and have to sit there and wait for it so it's been a great solution for us. >> So Mark, you've been - You've got over 20 years experience in the industry. You've been a CIO at Palmer for nearly two years now. One of the things that I read about you is that you're attracted to neglected IT systems. I imagine you saw a tremendous amount of opportunity but we talked about kind of bringing sexy back with state of protection but you were instrumental in kind of changing the IT direction at Palmer back to Dell EMC, tell us a little about that and why that was so important to you as the leader of IT there. >> Well, when I came into Palmer, we had a number of different issues. Everything from performance to backup windows that we couldn't hit. We were still using tape backup. There was a number of different issues and so we really needed a platform that would be able to come in and solve all those issues and also do it as quickly as possible so we put in a Dell EMC VxBlock which allowed us to, I kind of look at it as a data center in a box type of thing, I mean it solved our networking issues and our backup issues and then because we have multiple sites, we were able to actually back up our data and replicate it to some of our other data centers across the US so it was just a perfect solution for us and then one of the real nice things is when we actually put that product in Dell EMC came in and helped us to implement it and within three days of them arriving we were actually running production workloads on that system so it worked out great for us. >> You know, that reminds me, so Ruya, I've asked this of some of your colleagues, backup forever has been a bolt on and the VxBlock triggered something in my mind, I remember the original Vblock. I remember it said, oh no, Serves up 5,000 vms and my first thought was how do you back that up? And there wasn't and integrated answer. This is a long, long time ago. There is today. >> Ruya: Yeah, absolutely. >> Maybe talk about the philosophy of backup as a core component of a deployment and what you guys specifically have done there. >> Absolutely, we actually today had a really exciting announcement that would really be under what I would call more of a transformational approach to data protection and really the move that we see is it used to be that backup used to be kind of an afterthought, something that you roll out your applications and you're like oh yeah, we have to protect them and figure out what you're going to do and implement what you need from an infrastructure standpoint. We're really seeing a much more of a move to a source-based data protection so we're building data protection capabilities in directly to the applications so today we announced data protection suite for applications and a whole new version of it which really enables the native UIs that the database administrators are using to protect their own workloads and this source-based data protection is going to be more and more critical especially as data is moving closer and closer to where it's getting created so you need to protect it at the source not in the background, not as an afterthought. We also are seeing convergence which is your question around the VxRail. We have integrated data protection now built into VxRail deployments and we've had it for a couple of years now and this year at Dell EMC World, we introduced IDPA, Integrated Data Protection Appliance. Again, bringing all the components that a customer would need, integrated data protection storage, integrated data protection software, into an appliance model so it's all about simplicity, just making it easier for customers to be able to deploy. >> So Mark, you're obviously a VMware customer and as a VMware customer, your backup has sort of been subservient to the VMware momentum. You remember the ascendancy of VMware totally changed your backup requirement. You get less physical servers, backup was very consumptive of resources so you had to think about that. Fast forward, now this whole cloud world, what are you doing in cloud? How is it effecting your backup strategy, specifically? >> So we're looking at, you know, the cloud is one of the areas where obviously we're exploring opportunities. One of the reasons that we put in the VxBlock and the data domain and the data protection suite was really to set us up to be able to make that transition into the cloud simpler. You know, now we have the tools in place so we can decide when we need to move it to the cloud, what data do you need to move in the cloud, where do we need that data to be and it just gives us lots of opportunities and lots of options so >> So let me take that one step further, let's define cloud a little differently, not just as a place you put data but as I want to bring a model to the data wherever the data lives so it's self-service and it's automation and all those things you associated with cloud maybe bringing that on prem or putting it in the cloud. Is that something that as an IT practitioner, you see as viable or is the cloud no, no, it's in Amazon or Google or some other external location? Are you trying to bring that cloud model to the business? >> Yeah, I think as we look at the cloud, I think a lot of it is just options. Figuring out which option or which model or which provider you're going to utilize both from a cost perspective as well as regulatory compliance pieces come into play so you know as we look at cloud, we look at kind of what we've put on site as kind of a private cloud or a cloud in a box type thing and it just opens up lots of different opportunities for utilizing Amazon or Azure or whatever that is. >> So one of the things that I wanted to ask you Mark is really about, you know, Palmer School of Chiropractor was chartered in 1907. >> Mark: 1897. >> Right and then I think I saw that it was chartered, maybe a different name in the early 1900's. >> Mark: Yep. >> It's been around for a very long time so you know, as we see people moving from virtualization to cloud, we're seeing certifications change, you've seen a lot of evolution in data protection Ruya. What's the evolution from an education perspective or maybe even a cultural perspective at Palmer, an organization that's been around for well over 100 years. What's the shift that you have maybe driven within your IT experts to improve their education to remain at Palmer and to help you attract new talent as technologies evolve? >> Well, I think, you know, one of the reasons that Palmer decided to really look at IT, we're kind of the trusted leader in Chiropractic, the founder of Chiropractic and they really wanted to up their game. We're a higher ed institution so most of our students come from large universities and they're used to a lot of technology and instant on and all these different things and so we really wanted to make sure that we could provide an experience for them that gave them that instant on as well as there's a lot of online experiences after you graduate, you know, there's a lot of CEUs and things that they need to come back for and so we're starting to build some of our online programs to give them the opportunities without them having to come on site for everything so it just opens up a whole world of opportunity. >> I had one last question for you Mark, it's the why Dell EMC question, I mean, you've got a lot of options out there, we've talked about all this investment going in, why Dell EMC? What's attractive to them? And a two part question. What's on their to-do list in your view? >> Well I think the thing with the Dell EMC is it really was the one company that gave us everything that we needed. You know, it gave us that full solution, covered all of our issues, everything from performance with the servers and network and data backups and recovery. It just gave us everything that we needed and it was one solution from one vendor so if we do have support issues, we have one vendor to reach out to. We don't have three different vendors or having vendors fighting with each other. It's one solution, one vendor for support, and it just gave us everything that we needed. >> Excellent. Well, Ruya, I heard you say that at Dell EMC World on theCUBE moving from data centers to centers of data. Pat Gelsinger may have gotten that from you, he said that on stage this morning. >> Ruya: I don't know, you heard it first. >> As things are evolving, we thank you for sharing your insights. It sounds like there's a lot of opportunity. Same thing at Palmer, congratulations on the evolution that you have helped >> Thank you. >> To charter there and we want to thank you both taking the time to chat with Dave and myself this afternoon. >> Ruya: Thank you so much. Nice seeing you guys. >> And for our guests and my co-host Dave Vellante, you're watching theCUBE live from VMworld 2017 day one. Stick around, we'll be right back.