(upbeat music) >> Hey everyone, welcome to theCUBE's special program series Women of the Cloud, brought to you by AWS. I'm your host, Lisa Martin. Very pleased to welcome Angie Perez Thomas the area sales leader from AWS as my next guest. Angie, welcome to theCUBE. It's great to have you here. >> I'm super excited. Thank you so much, Lisa. >> Of course. Talk to me a little bit about you a little bit about your role in sales at AWS. >> Yeah, absolutely. So I'm a tenure Amazonian so I've been with AWS for about 10 years here. And as you mentioned, I'm the area sales leader and so my team supports new enterprise customers and executives who are just starting their journey into the cloud. >> Talk a little bit about some of your career paths. Did you have a linear path? You said tenure Amazonian, linear path maybe more Zig-zaggy. I'd love to get some of your recommendations for those who may be early in their tech careers looking to grow their careers. What are some of the experiences that you've had that you think are have shaped your career? >> Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, mine have, I've gone back and forth through different roles, both in leadership and as an IC and I'd probably say I've got three recommendations for those looking to grow their career in technology. So the first one is prioritize your time to actually think about what career experiences you want in in your fullness of your career. And so this actually may look like sitting down reserving time to actually deep think about what are those experiences you're looking to gain but also doing research on other careers of those who may inspire you and kind of collecting those ideas. My second recommendation is around documenting, writing down those career aspirations and actually putting it within and memorializing it within a document. So I've applied Amazon's working backwards methodology myself and applied that on my career and writing my own career press release. And so it's dated in 2029. It's got a headline and you know, it's a physical document of my own career aspirations. And third, I recommend sharing this documentation with others. You know, I really enjoy receiving and reading what others are wanting to do with their career aspirations and helping provide feedback and guidance. And so what we find is people genuinely want to help others. >> I agree. I love your recommendations for really being mindful, being thoughtful about what it is that you want to do doing that research, and then actually documenting it. I think it's so wonderful that you're taking Amazon's working backward approach from the press release going this is where I want to be in five years or in 10 years. And then putting that on paper. I still connect a lot with things like you that you put down on paper that you want to accomplish or something about writing it down that actually helps to you bring it to fruition. And then to your point is great about sharing it with others that can be mentors, that can be sponsors. I'm sure you've had some great mentors and sponsors along your career path that have probably helped you pretty successful. >> Yeah, absolutely. It's been really an effective tool for communicating with those who have helped me navigate as well. >> Talk a little bit about some of the successes now we'll switch gears but we'll continue on the success train. Some of the successes that you've had helping organizations really navigate, migrate to the cloud and and become successful businesses as a result. >> Yeah, no, absolutely. So across my tenure at AWS, you know I've truly enjoyed working with our customer executives and helping them deliver on their business outcomes. And so just recently I met with the COO of a real estate firm here in the Pacific Northwest and the COO has an initiative to identify and modify home titles and deeds with decades old discriminatory language and restrictions. So, although not invisible, due to the Fair Housing Act of 1968, racial covenants they're still present in millions of home titles across the United States today. And so partnering with AWS and using our cloud technology, you know, our teams together were able to build an application that was able to where homeowners are able to look up their titles you know, analyze it for discriminatory language and be able to submit it for modification. And so this, you know, today it can be done manually, but partnering with AWS, our teams were able to address modifying titles and deeds at scale. And so it's truly incredible what cloud computing has enabled just all of us to accomplish together. And so I kind of think of it like this our a catalyst for change is our customers and AWS and our partners is the how to accelerate that change. So it's really this partnership >> I love that accelerating change is so important across so many aspects of life, but the example that you gave is so, it's such an interesting use case. I wouldn't think that there is discriminatory language in deeds for houses, but the fact that it's probably a pervasive problem globally and the ability to help organizations to be able to change that for the better with cloud, with automation at scale is huge. I can imagine that's a use case that can be replicated surely across the states and more. >> Yeah, it's definitely gained interest across with different real estate forms across the United States. So we're really excited to be partnering and having impact on this change. >> And it's also an example of tech for good. I mean, we talk about that all the time but the fact that there's discriminatory language and housing deeds is still kind of blows my mind. But and we've seen so much in tech in terms of diversity and equity and inclusion but from a diversity perspective there's still a lot more to do. I'd love to get your opinion on what you think some of the the present day challenges are with respect to diversity in tech and maybe some of the things you think can be changed to for the better. >> Yeah, so you know, there's been a huge focus on, you know hiring for diverse talent in the tech industry for a number of years. And where I think we as an industry have an opportunity is to improve in investing and developing in this diverse talent and try to really think about how are we building up the skillsets to build today's and tomorrow's leaders. And so when I think about this it requires senior leaders to be really intentional about building a diverse ecosystem of talent and investing in this diverse talent. And let me clarify a little bit when I talk about investing in diverse talent, you know, this expands outside of just mentoring. This includes sponsoring, coaching, really providing opportunities where this talent has the ability to have a seat at the table. Getting into the room where it all happens. And so by doing so we're helping this talent build their skillsets to learn what questions are being asked within, the room? How are others communicating with each other? So that they can build the skillset so not only have a seat at the table but can be really leading with that seat at the table. And I would say last, we as companies we tend to or you know, we in the industry, we tend to just focus on developing those within our companies. And where I see a need is to really challenge the industry to reach outside of our own companies in diverse talent. And so developing just that ecosystem because not just thinking about the roles that are open today but really building the skillsets for the roles and and senior level positions that are going to be open tomorrow and making sure we're developing this talent to raise their hand and be the leading candidate for those opportunities. >> I love how you said kind of really a couple things that you know, with all the women in this program that I've spoken to is a common theme in terms of diversity and it's really about senior leaders making investments. And another thing that you said that's spot on is doing it with intention. There's so much to be gained by having an intention with diversity, thought diversity. To your point, going outside, it sounds to me like kind of let's go outside of our comfort zones to bring in different thoughts, different perspectives be able to grow them in their career because of course technologies and products and solutions can only get better the more diversity of thought we have. >> Yeah, no, absolutely. It's really being intentional. We as senior leaders, we have a law on our plate. And so yes this is an additional thing to be thinking about but it really has impact and change in driving the right things both for our customers and for the industry as well. And so it's an investment that's worth making. >> And speaking of that investment worth making I liked how you said, let's have some forethought about what are some of the roles that are going to be there in the future. How are some of the roles today going to be evolving? How do you see your role evolving in the next few years? How do you see cloud evolving and what excites you about that? >> Yeah, well, cloud has really been helping our customers move faster and adapt to just the ever changing landscape. I mean it's over the last couple years it's been very real for all of us to see. And so my role has moved from just being an advisor to a CIO to actually being an advisor to both the CEO and board of directors and when they come speak to us, cost or cloud is not just about cost savings, it truly is about helping a CEO deliver on their business outcomes. So I'll give an example. We're working with a growing community bank and their executive team has embarked on a transformation to becoming a digital first bank. And so when we think about the economic factors that they're working with them to come to mind. The first, their move towards online banking has it's accelerated with the pandemic really creating that customer experience of which when you think about local banks, you think about community where everybody knows your name over in the brick and mortar down the road. Well they have to bridge that community and trust into the digital world. And second, they needed to improve on operational efficiencies. And so they have to strategically think about what investments they're going to make to balance inflation while driving growth. And so where I've been finding both myself and my teams is having a seat at the table with these executives, helping them make these strategic business decisions. And we know we're successful when our customers are able to deliver on those business outcomes. They meet those objectives, they exceed those objectives. And then we know we've just exceeded customer expectation when our partnership actually shows up in their next earnings call. You know, it's really special. >> Oh, I bet it is. I mean, being able to be that influential in terms of an organization's success I love how you talked about kind of a career evolution that your career has evolved from now you're really with the board of directors having a seat at the table there. My last question for you is kind of on that front Angie is what are some of the changes in in the tech workforce that you've seen the last few years and what are some of the things that you're excited about that are down the road? >> Yeah, so a couple things where I've really seen change and evolution has been in the leadership level. We are needing to lead with empathy and really think about inclusion as a cornerstone skillset. So for our customers, our partners, our employees we've really moved into this hybrid environment. We're both leaders and team norms. We're challenged to change. We have to adapt. And so really having inclusion as that foundational skillset is a requirement for both today and tomorrow's leaders. What I'm really excited about is on the innovation front. Anyone can innovate now, you don't need to be a part of the R&D division of a company. We're seeing that cloud is providing tools all the way down to the elementary student level. So when you think about that, just think the imagination of our youth, brought to life with cloud technology. I mean, the future really is bright. >> It is. That horizon is endless. And I'm going to take some of your advice, Angie I loved that you talked about from your own perspective and your recommendations for the audience. Write that down, write your own press release in terms of what you want to see down the road. I'm going to take your advice, I'm going to do that. I thank you so much for joining me on the program. You've been so inspiring. Your career path has been impressive. What you're seeing in terms of innovation and cloud coming next is incredibly exciting. Thank you so much for your time, Angie. >> Thank you Lisa. >> For Angie Perez Thomas. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE's special program series Women of the Cloud, brought to you by AWS. We'll see you soon. (upbeat music)

from the cube studios in Palo Alto in Boston bringing you data-driven insights from the cube and ETR this is breaking analysis with Dave vellante over the past decade cloudflare has built a Global Network that has the potential to become the fourth us-based hyperscale class cloud in our view the company is building a durable Revenue model with hooks into many important markets these include the more mature DDOS protection space to other growth sectors such as zero trust a serverless platform for application development and an increasing number of services such as database and object storage and other network services in essence cloudflare could be thought of as a giant distributed supercomputer that can connect multiple clouds and act as a highly efficient scheduling engine at scale its disruptive DNA is increasingly attracting novel startups and established Global firms alike looking for Reliable secure high performance low latency and more cost-effective alternatives to AWS and Legacy infrastructure Solutions hello and welcome to this week's wikibon Cube insights powered by ETR in this breaking analysis we initiate our deeper coverage of cloudflare we'll briefly explain our take on the company and its unique business model we'll then share some peer comparisons with both the financial snapshot and some fresh ETR survey data finally we'll share some examples of how we think cloudflare could be a disruptive force with a super cloud-like offering that in many respects is what multi-cloud should have been cloudflare has been on our peripheral radar Ben Thompson and many others have written about their disruptive business model and recently a breaking analysis follower who will remain anonymous emailed with some excellent insights on cloudflare that prompted us to initiate more detailed coverage let's first take a look at how cloudflare seize the world in terms of its view of a modern stack this is a graphic from cloudflare that shows a simple three-layer Stack comprising Storage and compute the lower level and application layer and the network and their key message is basically that the big four hyperscalers have replaced the on-prem leaders apps have been satisfied and that mess of network that you see and Security in the upper left can now be handled all by cloudflare and the stack can be rented via Opex versus requiring heavy capex investment so okay somewhat of a simplified view is those companies on the the left are you know not standing still and we're going to come back to that but cloudflare has done something quite amazing I mean it's been a while since we've invoked Russ hanneman of Silicon Valley Fame on breaking analysis but remember when he was in a meeting one of his first meetings if not the first with Richard Hendricks it was the whiz kid on the show Silicon Valley and hanneman said something like if you had a blank check and you could build anything in the world what would it be and Richard's answer was basically a new internet and that led to Pied Piper this peer-to-peer Network powered by decentralized devices and and iPhones and this amazing compression algorithm that enabled high-speed data movement and low latency uh up to no low latency access across the network well in a way that's what cloudflare has built its founding premise reimagined how the internet should be built with a consistent set of server infrastructure where each server had lots of cores lots of dram lots of cash fast ssds and plenty of network connectivity and bandwidth and well this picture makes it look like a bunch of dots and points of presence on a map which of course it is there's a software layer that enables cloudflare to efficiently allocate resources across this Global Network the company claims that it's Network utilization is in the 70 percent range and it has used its build out to enter the technology space from the bottoms up offering for example free tiers of services to users with multiple entry points on different services and selling then more services over time to a customer which of course drives up its average contract value and its lifetime value at the same time the company continues to innovate and add new services at a very rapid cloud-like Pace you can think of cloudflare's initial Market entry as like a lightweight Cisco as a service the company's CFO actually he uses that term he calls it that which really must tick off Cisco who of course has a massive portfolio and a dominant Market position now because it owns the network cloudflare is a marginal cost of adding new Services is very small and goes towards zero so it's able to get software like economics at scale despite all this infrastructure that's building out so it doesn't have to constantly face the increasing infrastructure tax snowflake for example doesn't own its own network infrastructure as it grows it relies on AWS or Azure gcp and and while it gives the company obvious advantages it doesn't have to build out its own network it also requires them to constantly pay the tax and negotiate with hyperscalers for better rental rates now as previously mentioned Cloud Fair cloudflare claims that its utilization is very high probably higher than the hyperscalers who can spin up servers that they can charge for underutilized customer capacity cloudflare also has excellent Network traffic data that it can use to its Advantage with its Analytics the company has been rapidly innovating Beyond its original Core Business adding as I said before serverless zero trust offerings it has announced a database it calls its database D1 that's pretty creative and it's announced an object store called R2 that is S3 minus one both from the alphabet and the numeric I.E minus the egress cost saying no egress cost that's their big claim to fame and they've made a lot of marketing noise around about that and of course they've promised in our a D2 database which of course is R2D2 RR they've launched a developer platform cloudflare can be thought of kind of like first of all a modern CDN they've got a simpler security model that's how they compete for example with z-scaler that brings uh they also bring VPN sd-wan and DDOS protection services that are that are part of the network and they're less expensive than AWS that's kind of their sort of go to market and messaging and value proposition and they're positioning themselves as a neutral Network that can connect across multiple clouds now to be clear unlike AWS in particular cloudflare is not well suited to lift and shift your traditional apps like for instance sap Hana you're not going to run that in on cloudflare's platform rather the company started by making websites more secure and faster and it flew under the radar and much in the same way that clay Christensen described the disruption in the steel industry if you've seen that where new entrants picked off the low margin rebar business then moved up the stack we've used that analogy in the semiconductor business with arm and and even China cloudflare is running a similar playbook in the cloud and in the network so in the early part of the last decade as aws's ascendancy was becoming more clear many of us started thinking about how and where firms could compete and add value as AWS is becoming so dominant so for instance take an industry Focus you could do things like data sharing with snowflake eventually you know uh popularized you could build on top of clouds again snowflake is doing that as are others you could build private clouds and of course connect to hybrid clouds but not many had the wherewithal and or the hutzpah to build out a Global Network that could serve as a connecting platform for cloud services cloudflare has traction in the market as it adds new services like zero trust and object store or database its Tam continues to grow here's a quick snapshot of cloudflare's financials relative to Z scalar which is both a competitor and a customer fastly which is a smaller CDN and Akamai a more mature CDN slash Edge platform cloudflare and fastly both reported earnings this past week Cloud Fair Cloud flare surpassed a billion dollar Revenue run rate but they gave tepid guidance and the stock got absolutely crushed today which is Friday but the company's business model is sound it's growing close to 50 annually it has sas-like gross margins in the mid to high 70s and it's it it's got a very strong balance sheet and a 13x revenue run rate multiple in fact it's Financial snapshot is quite close to that of z-scaler which is kind of interesting which zinc sailor of course doesn't own its own network that's a pure play software company fastly is much smaller and growing more slowly than cloudflare hence its lower multiple well Akamai as you can see is a more mature company but it's got a nice business now on its earnings call this week cloudflare announced that its head of sales was stepping down and the company has brought in a new leader to take the firm to five billion dollars in sales I think actually its current sales leader felt like hey you know my work is done here bring on somebody else to take it to the next level the company is promising to be free cash flow positive by the end of the year and is working hard toward its long-term financial model or so working towards sorry it's a long-term financial model with gross margin Targets in the mid 70s it's targeting 20 non-gaap operating margins so so solid you know very solid not like completely off the charts but you know very good and to our knowledge it has not committed to a long-term growth rate but at that sort of operating profit level you would like to see growth be consistently at least in the 20 range so they could at least be a rule of 40 company or perhaps even even five even higher if they're going to continue to command a premium valuation okay let's take a look at the ETR data ETR is very positive on cloudflare and has recently published a report on the company like many companies cloudflare is seeing an across the board slowdown in spending velocity we've reported on this quite extensively using the ETR data to quantify the degree to that Slowdown and on the data set with ETR we see that many customers they're shifting their spend to Flat spend you know plus or minus let's say you know single digits you know two three percent or even zero or in the market we're seeing a shift from paid to free tiers remember cloudflare offers a lot of free services as you're seeing customers maybe turn off the pay for a while and going with the freebie but we're also seeing some larger customers in the data and the fortune 1000 specifically they're actually spending more which was confirmed on cloudflare's earnings call they did say everything across the board was softer but they did also indicate that some of their larger customers are actually growing faster than their smaller customers and their churn is very very low here's a two-dimensional graphic we'd like to share this view a lot it's got Net score or spending momentum on the vertical axis and overlap or pervasiveness in the survey on the horizontal axis and this cut isolates three segments in the etrs taxonomy that cloudflare plays in Cloud security and networking now the table inserted in that upper left there shows the raw data which informs the position of each company in the dots with Net score in the ends listed in that rightmost column the red dotted line indicates a highly elevated Net score and finally we posted the breakdown those colors in the bottom right of cloudflare's Net score the lime green that's new adoptions the forest green is we're spending more six percent or more the gray is flat plus or minus uh five percent and you can see that the majority of customers you can see that's the majority of the customers that gray area the pink is we're spending Less in other words down six percent or worse and the bright red is churn which is minimal one percent very good indicator for for cloudflare what you do to get etr's proprietary Net score and they've done this for many many quarters so we have that time series data you subtract the Reds from the greens and that's Net score cloudflare is at 39 just under that magic red line now note that cloudflare and zscaler are right on top of each other Cisco has a dominant position on the x-axis that cloudflare and others are eyeing AWS is also dominant but note that its Net score is well above the red dotted line it's incredible Palo Alto networks is also very impressive it's got both a strong presence on the horizontal axis and it's got a Net score that's pretty comparable to cloudflare and z-scaler to much smaller companies Akamai is actually well positioned for a reasonably mature company and you can see fastly ATT Juniper and F5 have far less spending momentum on their platforms than does cloudflare but at least they are in positive Net score territory so what's going to be really interesting to see is whether cloudflare can continue to hold this momentum or even accelerate it as we've seen with some other clouds as it scales its Network and keeps adding more and more services cloudflare has a couple of potential strategic vectors that we want to talk about and it'll be going to be interesting to see how that plays out Now One path is to compete more directly as a Cloud Player offering secure access Edge services like firewall as a service and zero Trust Services like data loss prevention email security from its area one acquisition and other zero trust offerings as well as Network Services like routing and network connectivity this is The Sweet Spot of the company load balancing many others and then add in things like Object Store and database Services more Edge services in the future it might be telecom like services such as Network switching for offices so that's one route and cloudflare is clearly on that path more services more cohorts at innovating and and growing the company and bringing in more Revenue increasing acvs and and increasing long-term value and keeping retention high now the other Vector is what we're just going to refer to as super cloud as an enabler of cross-cloud infrastructure this is new value uh relative to the former Vector that we were just talking about now the title of this episode is what multi-cloud should have been meaning cloudflare could be the control plane providing a consistent experience across clouds one that is fast and secure at global scale now to give you Insight on this let's take a look at some of the comments made by Matthew Prince the CEO and co-founder of cloudflare cloudflare put its R2 Object Store into public beta this past May and I believe it's storing around a petabyte of data today I think that's what they said in their call here's what Prince said about that quote we are talking to very large companies about moving more and more of their stored objects to where we can store that with R2 and one of the benefits is not only can we help them save money on the egress fees but it allows them to then use those object stores or objects across any of the different Cloud platforms they're that they're using so by being that neutral third party we can let people adopt a little bit of Amazon a little bit of Microsoft a little bit of Google a little bit of SAS vendors and share that data across all those different places so what's interesting about this in the super cloud context is it suggests that customers could take the best of each Cloud to power their digital businesses I might like AWS for in redshift for my analytic database or I love Google's machine learning Microsoft's collaboration and I'd like a consistent way to connect those resources but of course he's strongly hinting and has made many public statements that aws's egress fees are a blocker to that vision now at a recent investor event Matthew Prince added some color to this concept when he talked about one metric of success being how much R2 capacity was consumed and how much they sold but perhaps a more interesting Benchmark is highlighted by the following statement that he made he said a completely different measure of success for R2 is Andy jassy says I'm sick and tired of these guys meaning cloudflare taking our objects away we're dropping our egress fees to zero I would be so excited because we've then unlocked the ability to be the network that interconnects the cloud together now of course it would be Adam solipski who would be saying that or maybe Andy Jesse you know still watching over AWS and I think it's highly unlikely that that's going to happen anytime soon and that of course but but in theory gets us closer to the super cloud value proposition and to further drive that point home and we're paraphrasing a little bit his comments here he said something the effect of quote customers need one consistent control plane across clouds and we are the neutral Network that can be consistent no matter which Cloud you're using interesting right that Prince sees the world that's similar to if not nearly identical to the concepts that the cube Community has been putting forth around supercloud now this vision is a ways off let's be real Prince even suggested that his initial vision of an application running across multiple clouds you know that's like super cloud Nirvana isn't what customers are doing today that's that's really hard to do and perhaps you know it's never going to happen but there's a little doubt that cloudflare could be and is positioning itself as that cross-cloud control plane it has the network economics and the business model levers to pull it's got an edge up on the competition at the edge pun intended cloudflare is the definition of Edge and it's distributed platform it's decentralized platform is much better suited for Edge workloads than these giant data centers that are you know set up to to try and handle that today the the hyperscalers are building out you know their Edge networks things like outposts you know going out to the edge and other local zones Etc now cloudflare is increasingly competitive to the hyperscalers and those traditional Stacks that it depositioned on an earlier slide that we showed but you know the likes of AWS and Dell and hpe and Cisco and those others they're not sitting in their hands they have a huge huge customer install bases and they are definitely a moving Target they're investing and they're building out their own Super clouds with really robust stacks as well let's face it it's going to take a decade or more for Enterprises to adopt a developer platform or a new database Cloud plus cloudflare's capabilities when compared to incumbent stacks and the hyperscalers is much less robust in these areas and even in storage you know despite all the great conversation that R2 generated and the buzz you take a specialist like Wasabi they're more mature they're more functional and they're way cheaper even than cloudflare so you know it's not a fake a complete that cloudflare is going to win in those markets but we love the disruption and if cloudflare wants to be the fourth us-based hyperscaler or join the the big four as the as the fifth if we put Alibaba in the mix it's got a lot of work to do in the ecosystem by its own admission as much to learn and is part of the value by the way that it sees in its area one acquisition it's email security company that it bought but even in that case much of the emphasis has been on reseller channels compare that to the AWS ecosystem which is not only a channel play but is as much an innovation flywheel filling gaps where companies like snowflake Thrive side by side with aws's data stores as well all the on-prem stacks are building hybrid connections to AWS and other clouds as a means of providing consistent experiences across clouds indeed many of them see what they call cross-cloud services or what we call super cloud hyper cloud or whatever you know Mega Cloud you want to call it we use super cloud they are really eyeing that opportunity so very few companies frankly are not going after that space but we're going to close with this cloudflare is one of those companies that's in a position to wake up each morning and ask who can we disrupt today and very few companies are in a position to disrupt the hyperscalers to the degree that cloudflare is and that my friends is going to be fascinating to watch unfold all right let's call it a wrap I want to thank Alex Meyerson who's on production and manages the podcast as well as Ken schiffman who's our newest addition to the Boston Studio Kristen Martin and Cheryl Knight help us get the word out on social media and in our newsletters and Rob Hof is our editor-in-chief over at silicon angle thank you to all remember all these episodes are available as podcasts wherever you listen all you're going to do is search breaking analysis podcasts I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com you can email me at david.velante at siliconangle.com or DM me at divalante if you comment on my LinkedIn posts and please do check out etr.ai they got the best survey data in the Enterprise Tech business this is Dave vellante for the cube insights powered by ETR thank you very much for watching and we'll see you next time on breaking analysis

>>from >>around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 Special coverage sponsored by A. W s Global Partner Network. >>Okay, welcome back to the Cube. Virtual coverage of AWS reinvent 2020. I'm John for your host of the Cube. Virtual were not there in person. We're doing remote interviews, bringing that content to you virtually obviously with the virtual vent over three weeks, Walter Wall coverage Got a great guest here. Norman Quijano, Chief market officer for Acoustic. Normally great to have you on the Cube. Great story. Want to get into independent marketing? Cloud all that good stuff? Thanks for joining me. >>It's a pleasure to be here, John. I'm excited to chat with you, and it's exciting during reinvent. >>Yeah, a lot of great stuff. I mean, just every year I just get kind of nerdy, and I nerd out on all the massive new stuff and some of its kind of, you know, futuristic, you know, not yet available, but most is. But let's get into what you guys do. So first tell me the story about Acoustic and you guys were originally part of IBM spun out, and now independent. Take us through what happened. >>Yeah, sure, it's It's actually a super fascinating story overall, because in short, Acoustic was created last year, July 2019, as a carve out from IBM. The interesting history is that over the course of about a decade, IBM said, this marketing technology space is pretty interesting. So it went and acquired a number of companies across multiple years. Hold it all together in what it called IBM Watson marketing ultimately and said, We're in the marketing technology space, unfortunately. Turns out that's probably not, ah, core business for IBM. So Ah, few years ago, someone said, Maybe we're not in this space. Let's see if we can put this car of this out. And so we were born last July were private equity owned and from, ah, great history became a great new beginning. >>Awesome. So talk about the value proposition. You guys living here says you guys were the independent marketing cloud. Does that mean independent in the sense of you don't take a position on certain technologies or independent as a company? Just what does that mean? >>Why independent used to be a simple word, but it doesn't have so It's not so simple anymore, now, is it? You know what we mean by that is very straightforward. One. We are private, and we are focused on marketing and marketers, and we are not beholden to other parts of the business that may be trying to serve back, office or finance or other elements in a business. And what we think that the marketer today which, as you know, marketers usually have the or one of the biggest I T budgets in a company. We think they need providers that are focused on their needs and their needs only. >>Yeah, it's interesting. The Martek stack and I just had a conversation with the venture capitalists live on the kickoff of the program for the show Review it this pre cloud There's cloud transition Now. You got all in cloud benefits of being cloud native, right? So you kind of 2021. I think we're in this post covert era. You got to see a whole new set of advantages. Yeah, they'll still be hybrid. They'll still be on premise. But if you look at the all the Martek marketing technology stuff, it's just so much stuff and salesforce just bought slack. You have Microsoft tea and the big guys, all these things, and you only have a departments don't have a lot of staff. It's not >>like eso. You need >>technology to try. Great do the heavy lifting. This is a big theme of of the Amazon reinvent culture. Using tech creates the customer value, reduced the heavy lifting. How are you guys doing that? How do you serve customers >>in that competitive landscape? It's a well set up job, because the reality is that we have a lot. There's a lot of companies in the marketing technology space you can look at charts online there, 8000 companies evidently on. But the reality is that very few of those companies are trying to provide big sort of end to end solutions the way that we are and some of our large competitors are. But they're all at different stages of the revolution in the cloud, because most of the bigger companies in this space got their Martek capabilities through acquisition, and they may have sort of carry forward a pre cloud, uh, technology stack with them. What we're trying to do is really two things. One We moved our technology to the cloud. In particular. Over 90% of our workload is on AWS now. And we're trying to find the integration points with our customers with their equally moving to public cloud like AWS, and give them the capability of being able to bring up capabilities quickly, particularly in something like email Be able to scale. Right? We're in the middle of the holiday season is the busiest time of the year for businesses to send email, and we wanna make sure that our customers can scale up. We want them to have that capability, and we wanna be able to take advantage of that so we don't have toe over invest in back end technology. We want marketers to feel as empowered as the CEO who's here. So I'm all in on the cloud. Well, what about the marketers? They're the ones who should be using that, and and I think something like a w s and continue to grow. And me and the capabilities that every part are they AWS will continue to provide value to the marketers to the customer experience team as well as to the I T team. >>How are you guys using data and AI because obviously you seeing that huge part of every single product. It's one of those things that you see on and we've been saying for years now it's kind of mainstream, the benefit of clouds. You get horizontal scalability of infrastructure. Now you got lamb Daniel containers and then you got data you can get vertically specialized within the app. So if you do the micro services or deconstruct the monolith, you could really provide point value and still get that data scale. So this opens up massive data intelligence opportunities, which every marketer wants to be data driven. S O R O r. Use the data to make a great user experience or customer experience. How do you guys see that? And Acoustic. And what do you guys doing in the clouds around that you >>share? Well, first of all, somehow you got ahold of our are confidential roadmap because you just laid it out right there. And what you said, it's not so confidential. But the reality is it's market >>leading for sure. I mean, I think you can. That's the Holy Grail. I mean, >>it's where everyone wants to be, and we had at Acoustic have a very specific philosophy is that we want to. We want to embrace data, and we mean, of course, on behalf of our customers. And we want to bring data to empower every every application in every part of the marketers business. And for better or worse, there's some marketing technology sort of have a little bit of, ah, little hands off with data, particularly if it's not their own data. We believe that whether it's first party, second party, third party data it needs to be brought into the marketing life cycle, and we are building or have built capabilities to do that. We believe in being open, believe in being ableto bring in all sorts of different data types, and then use that to build the best marketing campaigns and experiences for our customers and for their customer. And if you're not embracing all the types of data out there in creating a unique formula for each particular customer, you're not gonna deliver the best marketing experience. Yeah, >>I totally agree. And I think one of these things where modern applications there's two themes here. Modern applications and then completely programmable infrastructure for Amazon and this again. I've been covering cloud for many, many years since the beginning of cloud, and I've looked at all the big three. And I see Amazon's been clearly winning on the infrastructure of the service platform as a service. They Yeah, they have sass apps out there, but they have an ecosystem. Microsoft has their own strategy. Google the other you picked Amazon is a preferred partner. Could you share? Um, Why? Why Amazon And what specifically does that enable you to dio a za company? Because, um, yeah, Amazon's huge and some people get nervous like Okay, I'm just gonna be Oh, you're gonna eat me up and you're in a marketing focus, not a not a court. I don't have a core building block out there called Marketing Cloud like Oracle does or one of the company's. Why Amazon. >>Yeah, I think that you really sort of laid the landscape out well, and Amazon is very much a a full stack. And and there's so much maturity in AWS overall, which you don't necessarily see the sort of top to bottom maturity that you see in the other of the clouds and Amazon and all clouds right we we all want to be able to tap into micro services. So when we were trying to figure out what gave us the scalability that we needed, we were really focused on the ability to integrate at multiple touch points. Three. Ability to scale up really fast because, like during the holiday season were transacting billions of transactions. Whether it be emails that our customers are sending or SMS messages that they're sending so billions of transactions over a fixed period of time, we need to be able to scale quickly at an affordable price on We also believe that actually, a lot of marketing departments are going to start to realize the value of plugging into the service is available in a public cloud, particularly is they see things such as taking data from 33rd parties, right? How did they get that into the system or taking their marketing stacks and ultimately may potentially putting those stacks in containers, right. How do you move that into a container and be able to quickly connect other micro services to that container? So we think that this is the absolute future of where the marketing department is gonna end up. And we think Amazon and AWS could be a great partner because it gives you that global footprint gives you that ability to scale and gives you the richest set of services available right now. That was a really easy decision for us. >>Awesome stuff. Thanks for coming on. Normal. Really appreciate you laying out your vision of the cloud. Take a minute real quick. We got a couple minute left, put the plug out for Acoustic. What do you guys looking to do? What's the value proposition? Give a plug for the company. >>Yeah, we we left talking about Acoustic, and you can certainly visit us it Acoustic dot com Acoustic is a full service marketing platform. We are modern, we are cloud based, and one of the things that we do is we specialize and focus on marketing and the marketing function. And if anybody out there is interested in finding out more, you can not only come to Acoustic dot com. You can ping me because we believe that marketers are key decision makers and myself is our CMO wants to talk to every potential client. >>No one. Thanks for coming on. The Moncada you Chief market officer Acoustic here, featured on the Cube. But Adam's reinvent Thanks for coming on. Thanks. It >>was a pleasure, John. >>Thank you. I'm John Fair hosted the Cube. More coverage after this short break. Stay with us. Form or cube. Live coverage. Yeah.

(radio calls) >> Announcer: From around the globe, its theCUBE covering Space & Cybersecurity Symposium 2020, hosted by Cal poly. Hello, welcome back to theCUBE virtual coverage with Cal Poly for the Space and Cybersecurity Symposium, a day four and the wrap up session, keynote session with the Lieutenant Governor of California, Eleni Kounalakis. She's here to deliver her keynote speech on the topic of California's role in supporting America's Cybersecurity future. Eleni, take it away. >> Thank you, John, for the introduction. I am Lieutenant Governor Eleni Kounalakis. It is an honor to be part of Cal Poly Space and Cybersecurity Symposium. As I speak kind of Pierre with the governor's office of business and economic development is available on the chat, too ready to answer any questions you might have. California and indeed the world are facing significant challenges right now. Every day we are faced with the ongoing COVID-19 pandemic and the economic downturn that is ensued. We have flattened the curve in California and are moving in the right direction but it is clear that we're not out of the woods yet. It is also impossible right now to escape the reality of climate change from the fire sparked by exceptionally rare, dry lightening events to extreme heat waves threatening public health and putting a strain on our electricity grid. We see that climate change is here now. And of course we've been recently confronted with a series of brutal examples of institutionalized racism that have created an awakening among people of all walks of life and compelled us into the streets to march and protest. In the context of all this, we cannot forget that we continue to be faced with other less visible but still very serious challenges. Cybersecurity threats are one of these. We have seen cities, companies and individuals paralyzed by attacks costing time and money and creating an atmosphere of uncertainty and insecurity. Our state agencies, local governments, police departments, utilities, news outlets and private companies from all industries are target. The threats around cybersecurity are serious but not unlike all the challenges we face in California. We have the tools and fortitude to address them. That is why this symposium is so important. Thank you, Cal Poly and all the participants for being here and for the important contributions you bring to this conference. I'd like to also say a few words about California's role in America's future in space. California has been at the forefront of the aerospace industry for more than a century through all the major innovations in aerospace from wooden aircraft, to World War II Bombers, to rockets and Mars rovers. California has played a pivotal role. Today, California is the number one state in total defense spending, defense contract spending and total number of personnel. It is estimated the Aerospace and Defense Industry, provides $168 billion in economic impact to our state. And America's best trained and most experienced aerospace and technology workforce lives here in California. The fact that the aerospace and defense sector, has had a strong history in California is no accident. California has always had strong innovation ecosystem and robust infrastructure that puts many sectors in a position to thrive. Of course, a big part of that infrastructure is a skilled workforce. And at the foundation of a skilled workforce is education. California has the strongest system of public higher education in the world. We're home to 10 university of California campuses, 23 California State university campuses and 116 California Community Colleges. All told nearly 3 million students are enrolled in public higher education. We also have world renowned private universities including the California Institute of Technology and Stanford University numbers one and three in the country for aerospace engineering. California also has four national laboratories and several NASA facilities. California possesses a strong spirit of innovation, risk taking and entrepreneurship. Half of all venture capital funding in the United States, goes to companies here in California. Lastly, but certainly no less critical to our success, California is a diverse state. 27% of all Californians are foreign born, 27% more than one in four of our population of 40 million people are immigrants from another country, Europe central and South America, India, Asia, everywhere. Our rich cultural diversity is our strength and helps drive our economy. As I look to the future of industries like cybersecurity and the growing commercial space industry, I know our state will need to work with those industries to make sure we continue to train our workforce for the demands of an evolving industry. The office of the lieutenant governor has a unique perspective on higher education and workforce development. I'm on the UC Board of Regents, the CSU Board of Trustees. And as of about two weeks ago, the Community Colleges Board of Governors. The office of the lieutenant governor is now the only office that is a member of every governing board, overseeing our public higher education system. Earlier in the symposium, we heard a rich discussion with Undersecretary Stewart Knox from the California Labor and Workforce Development Agency about what the state is doing to meet the needs of space and cybersecurity industries. As he mentioned, there are over 37,000 job vacancies in cybersecurity in our state. We need to address that gap. To do so, I see an important role for public private partnerships. We need input from industry and curriculum development. Some companies like Lockheed Martin, have very productive partnerships with universities and community colleges that train students with skills they need to enter aerospace and cyber industries. That type of collaboration will be key. We also need help from the industry to make sure students know that fields like cybersecurity even exist. People's early career interests are so often shaped by the jobs that members of their family have or what they see in popular culture. With such a young and evolving field like cybersecurity, many students are unaware of the job opportunities. I know for my visits to university campuses that students are hungry for STEM career paths where they see opportunities for good paying jobs. When I spoke with students at UC Merced, many of them were first generation college students who went through community college system before enrolling in a UC and they gravitated to STEM majors. With so many job opportunities available to STEM students, cybersecurity ought to be one that they are aware of and consider. Since this symposium is being hosted by Cal Poly, I wanted to highlight the tremendous work they're doing as leaders in the space and cybersecurity industry. Cal Poly California Cybersecurity Institute, does incredible work bringing together academia, industry and government training the next generation of cyber experts and researching emerging cybersecurity issues. As we heard from the President of Cal Poly, Jeff Armstrong the university is in the perfect location to contribute to a thriving space industry. It's close to Vandenberg Air Force Base and UC Santa Barbara and could be home to the future permanent headquarters of US Space Command. The state is also committed to supporting this space industry in the Central Coast. In July, the State of California, Cal poly US-based force and the others signed a memorandum of understanding to develop a commercial space port at Vandenberg Air Force Base and to develop a master plan to grow the commercial space industry in the region. Governor Newsom has made a commitment to lift up all regions of the state. And this strategy will position the Central Coast to be a global leader in the future of the space industry. I'd like to leave you with a few final thoughts, with everything we're facing. Fires, climate change, pandemic. It is easy to feel overwhelmed but I remain optimistic because I know that the people of the State of California are resilient, persistent, and determined to address our challenges and show a path toward a better future for ourselves and our families. The growth of the space industry and the economic development potential of projects like the Spaceport at Vandenberg Air Force Base, our great example of what we can look forward to. The potential for the commercial space industry to become a $3 trillion industry by mid century, as many experts predict is another. There are so many opportunities, new companies are going to emerge doing things we never could have dreamed of today. As Lieutenant General John Thompson said in the first session, the next few years of space and cyber innovation are not going to be a pony ride at the state fair, they're going to be a rodeo. We should all saddle up. Thank you. >> Okay, thank you very much, Eleni. I really appreciate it. Thank you for your participation and all your support to you and your staff. You guys doing a lot of work, a lot going on in California but cybersecurity and space as it comes together, California's playing a pivotal role in leading the world and the community. Thank you very much for your time. >> Okay, this session is going to continue with Bill Britton. Who's the vice president of technology and CIO at Cal Poly but more importantly, he's the director of the cyber institute located at Cal Poly. It's a global organization looking at the intersection of space and cybersecurity. Bill, let's wrap this up. Eleni had a great talk, talking about the future of cybersecurity in America and its future. The role California is playing, Cal Poly is right in the Central Coast. You're in the epicenter of it. We've had a great lineup here. Thanks for coming on. Let's put a capstone on this event. >> Thank you, John. But most importantly, thanks for being a great partner helping us get this to move forward and really changing the dynamic of this conversation. What an amazing time we're at, we had quite an unusual group but it's really kind of the focus and we've moved a lot of space around ourselves. And we've gone from Lieutenant General Thompson and the discussion of the opposition and space force and what things are going on in the future, the importance of cyber in space. And then we went on and moved on to the operations. And we had a private company who builds, we had the DOD, Department Of Defense and their context and NASA and theirs. And then we talked about public private partnerships from President Armstrong, Mr. Bhangu Mahad from the DOD and Mr. Steve Jacques from the National Security Space Association. It's been an amazing conference for one thing, I've heard repeatedly over and over and over, the reference to digital, the reference to cloud, the reference to the need for cybersecurity to be involved and really how important that is to start earlier than just at the employment level. To really go down into the system, the K through 12 and start there. And what an amazing time to be able to start there because we're returning to space in a larger capacity and it's now all around us. And the lieutenant governor really highlighted for us that California is intimately involved and we have to find a way to get our students involved at that same level. >> I want to ask you about this inflection point that was a big theme of this conference and symposium. It was throughout the interviews and throughout the conversations, both on the chat and also kind of on Twitter as well in the social web. Is that this new generation, it wasn't just space and government DOD, all the normal stuff you see, you saw JPL, the Hewlett Foundation, the Defense Innovation Unit, Amazon Web Services, NASA. Then you saw entrepreneurs come in, who were doing some stuff. And so you had this confluence of community. Of course, Cal Poly had participated in space. You guys does some great job, but it's not just the physical face-to-face show up, gets to hear some academic papers. This was a virtual event. We had over 300 organizations attend, different organizations around the world. Being a virtual event you had more range to get more people. This isn't digital. This symposium isn't about Central California anymore. It's global. >> No, it really has gone. >> What really happened to that? >> It's really kind of interesting because at first all of this was word of mouth for this symposium to take place. And it just started growing and growing and the more that we talk to organizations for support, the more we found how interconnected they were on an international scale. So much so that we've decided to take our cyber competition next year and take it globally as well. So if in fact as Major General Shaw said, this is about a multinational support force. Maybe it's time our students started interacting on that level to start with and not have to grow into it as they get older, but do it now and around space and around cybersecurity and around that digital environment and really kind of reduce the digital dividing space. >> Yeah, General Thompson mentioned this, 80 countries with programs. This is like the Olympics for space and we want to have these competitions. So I got great vision and I love that vision, but I know you have the number... Not number, the scores and from the competition this year that happened earlier in the week. Could you share the results of that challenge? >> Yeah, absolutely. We had 83 teams participate this year in the California Cyber Innovation Challenge. And again, it was based around a spacecraft scenario where a spacecraft, a commercial spacecraft was hacked and returned to earth. And the students had to do the forensics on the payload. And then they had to do downstream network analysis, using things like Wireshark and autopsy and other systems. It was a really tough competition. The students had to work hard and we had middle school and high school students participate. We had an intermediate league, new schools who had never done it before or even some who didn't even have STEM programs but were just signing up to really get involved in the experience. And we had our ultimate division which was those who had competed in several times before. And the winner of that competition was North Hollywood. They've been the winning team for four years in a row. Now it's a phenomenal program, they have their hats off to them for competing and winning again. Now what's really cool is not only did they have to show their technical prowess in the game but they also have to then brief and out-brief what they've learned to a panel of judges. And these are not pushovers. These are experts in the field of cybersecurity in space. We even had a couple of goons participating from DefCon and the teams present their findings. So not only are we talking technical, we're talking about presentation skills. The ability to speak and understand. And let me tell you, after reading all of their texts to each other over the weekend adds a whole new language they're using to interact with each other. It's amazing. And they are so more advanced and ready to understand space problems and virtual problems than we are. We have to challenge them even more. >> Well, it sounds like North Hollywood got the franchise. It's likethe Patriots, the Lakers, they've got a dynasty developing down there in North Hollywood. >> Well, what happens when there's a dynasty you have to look for other talent. So next year we're going global and we're going to have multiple states involved in the challenge and we're going to go international. So if North Hollywood pulls it off again next year, it's going to be because they've met the best in the world than defeated >> Okay, the gauntlet has been thrown down, got to take down North Hollywood from winning again next year. We'll be following that. Bill, great to get those results on the cyber challenge we'll keep track and we'll put a plug for it on our site. So we got to get some press on that. My question to you is now as we're going digital, other theme was that they want to hire digital natives into the space force. Okay, the DOD is looking at new skills. This was a big theme throughout the conference not just the commercial partnerships with government which I believe they had kind of put more research and personally, that's my personal opinion. They should be putting in way more research into academic and these environments to get more creative. But the skill sets was a big theme. What's your thoughts on how you saw some of the highlight moments there around skill sets? >> John, it's really interesting 'cause what we've noticed is in the past, everybody thinks skill sets for the engineering students. And it's way beyond that. It's all the students, it's all of them understanding what we call cyber cognizance. Understanding how cybersecurity works whatever career field they choose to be in. Space, there is no facet of supporting space that doesn't need that cyber cognizance. If you're in the back room doing the operations, you're doing the billing, you're doing the contracting. Those are still avenues by which cybersecurity attacks can be successful and disrupt your space mission. The fact that it's international, the connectivities, all of those things means that everyone in that system digitally has to be aware of what's going on around them. That's a whole new thought process. It's a whole new way of addressing a problem and dealing with space. And again it's virtual to everyone. >> That's awesome. Bill, great to have you on. Thank you for including theCUBE virtual, our CUBE event software platform that we're rolling out. We've been using it for the event and thank you for your partnership in this co-creation opening up your community, your symposium to the world, and we're so glad to be part of it. I want to thank you and Dustin and the team and the President of Cal Poly for including us. Thank you very much. >> Thank you, John. It's been an amazing partnership. We look forward to it in the future. >> Okay, that's it. That concludes the Space and Cybersecurity Symposium 2020. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE, your host with Cal Poly, who put on an amazing virtual presentation, brought all the guests together. And again, shout out to Bill Britton and Dustin DeBrum who did a great job as well as the President of Cal poly who endorsed and let them do it all. Great event. See you soon. (flash light sound)

>> Narrator: From around the globe. It's theCUBE covering space in cybersecurity symposium 2020 hosted by Cal Poly. >> Hello, everyone. Welcome to the space and cybersecurity symposium, 2020 hosted by Cal Poly where the intersection of space and security are coming together. I'm John Furrier, your host with theCUBE here in California. I want to welcome our featured guest, Lieutenant General, John F. Thompson with the United States Space Force approach to cybersecurity. That's the topic of this session. And of course he's the commander of the space and missile system center in Los Angeles Air Force Base. Also heading up Space Force. General, thank you for coming on. I really appreciate to you kicking this off. Welcome to the symposium. >> Hey, so thank you very much, John, for that very kind introduction. Also very much thank you to Cal Poly for this opportunity to speak to this audience today. Also a special shout out to one of the organizers, Dustin Debrun, for all of his work, helping get us to this point. Ladies and gentlemen as a John mentioned, I'm JT Thompson. I lead the 6,000 men and women of the United States Space Force's Space and Missile System Center, which is headquartered here at Los Angeles Air Force Base and El Segundo. If you're not quite sure where that's at, it's about a mile and a half from LAX. This is our main operating location, but we do have a number of other operating locations around the country. We're about 500 people at Kirtland Air Force Base in Albuquerque, New Mexico, and an about another 500 people on the front range of the Rockies between Colorado Springs and Denver plus a smattering of other much smaller operating locations nationwide. We're responsible for acquiring, developing and sustaining the United States Space Force's, critical space assets. That includes the satellites in the space layer and also on the ground layer our ground segments to operate those satellites. And we also are in charge of procuring launch services for the US Space Force and a number of our critical mission partners across the Department of Defense and the intelligence community. Just as a couple of examples of some of the things we do, if you're unfamiliar with our work we developed and currently sustain the 31 satellite GPS constellation that satellite constellation, while originally intended to help with global navigation, those GPS signals have provided trillions of dollars in unanticipated value to the global economy over the past three decades. GPS is everywhere. I think everybody realizes that. Agriculture, banking, the stock market, the airline industry, separate and distinct navigation systems. It's really pervasive across both capabilities for our Department of Defense and capabilities for our economy and individuals, billions of individuals across our country and the planet. Some of the other work we do for instance, in the communications sector, secure communications satellites that we designed and build that link America's sons and daughters serving in the military around the world and really enable real time support and comms for our deployed forces. And those of our allies. We also acquire infrared missile warning satellites that monitor the planet for missile launches that provide advanced warning to the US Homeland and to our allies in case some of those missile launches are nefarious. On a note, that's probably a lot closer to home, maybe a lot closer to home than many of us want to think about here in the state of California. In 2018, SMC jumped through a bunch of red tape and bureaucracy to partner with the US Forest Service during two of the largest wildfires in the state's history, the Camp and Woolsey fires in Northern California. As those fires spread out of control, we created processes on the fly to share data from our missile warning satellites. Those are satellites that are systems that are purpose built to see heat sources from thousands of miles above the planet. And we collaborated with the US Forest Service so that firefighters on the ground could track those fires more in real time and better forecast fires and where they were spreading, thereby saving lives and property by identifying hotspots and flareups for firefighters. That data that we were able to working with our contractors pass to the US Forest Service and authorities here in California, was passed in less than an hour as it was collected to get it into the hands of the emergency responders, the first responders as quickly as possible and doing that in an hour greatly surpassed what was available from some of the other assets in the airborne and ground-based fire spotters. It was really instrumental in fighting those fires and stopping their spread. We've continued that involvement in recent years, using multiple systems to support firefighters across the Western US this fall, as they battled numerous wildfires that unfortunately continue. Working together with the US Forest Service and with other partners we'd like to think that we've made a difference here, but there's still a lot more work to go. And I think that we should always be asking ourselves what else can space data be used for and how can we more rapidly get that space data to stakeholders so that they can use it for purposes of good, if you will. How else can we protect our nation? How else can we protect our friends and allies? I think a major component of the discussion that we will have throughout this conference is that the space landscape has changed rapidly and continues to change rapidly. Just over the past few years, John and I were talking before we went live here and 80 nations now have space programs. Nearly 80 space faring nations on the planet. If you just look at one mission area that the Department of Defense is interested in, and that's small launch, there are currently over 100 different small launch companies within the US industrial base vying for commercial DoD and civil payload capabilities, mostly to lower earth orbit. It's truly a remarkable time. If you factor in those things like artificial intelligence and machine learning, where we're revolutionizing really, the ways that we generate process and use data. It's really remarkable. In 2016, so if you think about this four years ago, NASA estimated that there were 28 terabytes of information transiting their space network each day. And that was four years ago. Obviously we've got a lot of desire to work with a lot of the people in the audience in this conference, we need to work with big thinkers, like many of you to answer questions on how best we apply data analytics to extract value and meaning from that data. We need new generations of thinkers to help apply cutting edge theories of data mining, cyber behaviorism, and Internet of Things 2.0, it's just truly a remarkable time to be in the space business and the cyber aspects of the space business are truly, truly daunting and important to all of us. Integrating cyber security into our space systems, both commercial and government is a mandate. it's no longer just a nice to have as the US Space Force and Department of the Air Force leadership has said many times over the past couple of years, space is becoming congested and contested. And that contested aspect means that we've got to focus on cyber security in the same way that the banking industry and cyber commerce focus on cybersecurity day in and day out. The value of the data and services provided is really directly tied to the integrity and availability of that data and services from the space layer, from the ground control segments associated with it. And this value is not just military, it's also economic and it's not just American, it's also a value for the entire world, particularly our allies, as we all depend upon space and space systems. Your neighbors and friends here in California that are employed at the space and missile system center work with network defenders. We work with our commercial contractors and our systems developers, our international allies and partners to try and build as secure and resilient systems as we can from the ground up that keep the global comments of space free and open for exploration and for commerce as John and I were talking earlier, before we came online, there's an aspect of cybersecurity for space systems, especially for some of our legacy systems, that's more, how do we bolt this on? Cause we fielded those space systems a number of years ago, and the challenges of cybersecurity in the space domain have grown. So we have a part that we have to worry about, bolting it on, but then we have to worry about building it in as we field new systems and build in a flexibility that realizes that the cyber threat or the cybersecurity landscape will evolve over time. It's not just going to be stagnant. There will always be new vulnerabilities and new threat vectors that we all have to look at. Look, as Secretary Barrett, who is our secretary of the air force likes to say most Americans use space before they have their first cup of coffee in the morning. The American way of life really depends on space. And as part of the United States Space Force, we work with defense leaders, our Congress joint, and international military teammates and industry to ensure American leadership in space. I really thank you for this opportunity to address the audience today, John, and thanks so much to Cal Poly for letting me be one of the speakers at this event. I've really looked forward to this for several months. And so with that, I look forward to your questions as we kind of move along here. >> General, thank you very much for those awesome introductory statement. For the folks watching on the stream, Brigadier General Carthan's going to be in the chat, answering any questions, feel free to chat away. He's the vice commander of Space and Missile System Center, he'll be available. A couple of comments from your keynote before I get to my questions. Cause it just jumped into my head. You mentioned the benefits of say space with the fires in California. We're living that here. That's really realtime. That's a benefit. You also mentioned the ability for more people launching payloads into space. I'm only imagined Moore's law smaller, faster, cheaper applies to rockets too. So I'm imagining you have the benefits of space and you have now more potential objects flying out sanctioned and maybe unsanctioned. So is it going to be more rules around that? This is an interesting question cause it's exciting Space Force, but for all the good there is potentially bad out there. >> Yeah. So John, I think the basics of your question is as space becomes more congested and contested, is there a need for more international norms of how satellites fly in space? What kind of basic features satellites have to perhaps de orbit themselves? What kind of basic protections should all satellites be afforded as part of a peaceful global commons of space? I think those are all fantastic questions. And I know that US and many allied policy makers are looking very, very hard at those kinds of questions in terms of what are the norms of behavior and how we field, and field as the military term. But how we populate using civil or commercial terms that space layer at different altitudes, lower earth orbit, mid earth orbit, geosynchronous earth orbit, different kinds of orbits, what the kind of mission areas we accomplished from space. That's all things that need to be definitely taken into account as the place gets a little bit, not a little bit as the place gets increasingly more popular day in and day out. >> I'm super excited for Space Force. I know that a new generation of young folks are really interested in it's an emerging, changing great space. The focus here at this conference is space and cybersecurity, the intersection. I'd like to get your thoughts on the approach that a space force is taking to cybersecurity and how it impacts our national goals here in the United States. >> Yeah. So that's a great question John, let me talk about it in two basic ways. At number one is an and I know some people in the audience, this might make them a little bit uncomfortable, but I have to talk about the threat. And then relative to that threat, I really have to talk about the importance of cyber and specifically cyber security, as it relates to that threat. The threats that we face really represented a new era of warfare and that new era of warfare involves both space and cyber. We've seen a lot of action in recent months from certain countries, notably China and Russia that have threatened what I referred to earlier as the peaceful global commons of space. For example, it threw many unclassified sources and media sources. Everybody should understand that the Russians have been testing on orbit anti-satellite capabilities. It's been very clear if you were following just the week before last, the Department of Defense released its 2020 military and security developments involving the People's Republic of China. And it was very clear that China is developing ASATs, electronic jammers, directed energy weapons, and most relevant to today's discussion, offensive cyber capabilities. There are kinetic threats that are very, very easy to see, but a cyber attack against a critical command and control site or against a particular spacecraft could be just as devastating to the system and our war fighters in the case of GPS and important to note that that GPS system also impacts many civilians who are dependent on those systems from a first response perspective and emergency services, a cyber attack against a ground control site could cause operators to lose control of a spacecraft or an attacker could feed spoofed data to assist them to mislead operators so that they sent emergency services personnel to the wrong address. Attacks on spacecraft on orbit, whether directly via a network intrusion or enabled through malware introduced during the system's production while we're building the satellite can cripple or corrupt the data. Denial-of-service type attacks on our global networks obviously would disrupt our data flow and interfere with ongoing operations and satellite control. If GPS went down, I hesitate to say it this way, cause we might elicit some screams from the audience. But if GPS went down a Starbucks, wouldn't be able to handle your mobile order, Uber drivers wouldn't be able to find you. And Domino's certainly wouldn't be able to get there in 30 minutes or less. So with a little bit of tongue in cheek there from a military operations perspective, it's dead serious. We have become accustomed in the commercial world to threats like ransomware and malware. And those things have unfortunately become commonplace in commercial terrestrial networks and computer systems. However, what we're seeing is that our adversaries with the increased competition in space these same techniques are being retooled, if you will, to use against our national security space systems day in and day out. As I said, during my opening remarks on the importance of cyber, the value of these systems is directly tied to their integrity. If commanders in the field, firefighters in California or baristas in Starbucks, can't trust the data they're receiving, then that really harms their decision making capabilities. One of the big trends we've recently seen is the move towards proliferated LEO constellations, obviously Space X's Starlink on the commercial side and on the military side, the work that DARPA and my organization SMC are doing on Blackjack and Casino, as well as some space transport layer constellation work that the space development agency is designing are all really, really important types of mesh network systems that will revolutionaries how we plan and field war fighting systems and commercial communications and internet providing systems. But they're also heavily reliant on cybersecurity. We've got to make sure that they are secured to avoid an accident or international damage. Loss of control of these constellations really could be catastrophic from both a mission perspective or from a satellites tumbling out of low earth orbit perspective. Another trend is introductions in artificial intelligence and machine learning, onboard spacecraft are at the edge. Our satellites are really not so much hardware systems with a little software anymore in the commercial sector and in the defense sector, they're basically flying boxes full of software. And we need to ensure that data that we're getting out of those flying boxes full of software are helping us base our decisions on accurate data and algorithms, governing the right actions and that those systems are impervious to the extent possible to nefarious modifications. So in summation, cybersecurity is a vital element of everything in our national security space goals. And I would argue for our national goals, writ large, including economic and information dimensions, the Space Force leadership at all levels from some of the brand new second lieutenants that general Raymond swore in to the space force this morning, ceremonially from the air force associations, airspace and cyberspace conference to the various highest levels, General Raymond, General DT Thompson, myself, and a number of other senior leaders in this enterprise. We've got to make sure that we're all working together to keep cyber security at the forefront of our space systems cause they absolutely depend on it. >> You mentioned hardware, software threats, opportunities, challenges. I want to ask you because you got me thinking of the minute they're around infrastructure. We've heard critical infrastructure, grids here on earth. You're talking about critical infrastructure, a redefinition of what critical infrastructure is, an extension of what we have. So I'd love to get your thoughts about Space Force's view of that critical infrastructure vis-a-vis the threat vectors, because the term threat vectors has been kicked around in the cyberspace. Oh you have threat vectors. They're always increasing the surface area. If the surface area is from space, it's an unlimited service area. So you got different vectors. So you've got new critical infrastructure developing real time, really fast. And you got an expanded threat vector landscape. Putting that in perspective for the folks that aren't really inside the ropes on these critical issues. How would you explain this and how would you talk about those two things? >> So I tell you, just like, I'm sure people in the security side or the cybersecurity side of the business in the banking industry feel, they feel like it's all possible threat vectors represent a dramatic and protect potentially existential threat to all of the dollars that they have in the banking system, to the financial sector. On the Department of Defense side, we've got to have sort of the same mindset. That threat vector from, to, and through space against critical space systems, ground segments, the launch enterprise, or transportation to orbit and the various different domains within space itself. Like I mentioned before, LEO, MEO and GEO based satellites with different orbits, all of the different mission areas that are accomplished from space that I mentioned earlier, some that I did mention like a weather tactical or wide band communications, various new features of space control. All of those are things that we have to worry about from a cyber security threat perspective. And it's a daunting challenge right now. >> Yeah, that's awesome. And one of the things we've been falling on the hardware side on the ground is the supply chain. We've seen, malware being, really put in a really obscure hardware. Who manufactures it? Is it being outsourced? Obviously government has restrictions, but with the private sector, you mentioned China and the US kind of working together across these peaceful areas. But you got to look at the supply chain. How does the supply chain in the security aspect impact the mission of the US space Force? >> Yeah. Yeah. So how about another, just in terms of an example, another kind of California based historical example. The very first US Satellite, Explorer 1, was built by the jet propulsion laboratory folks, not far from here in El Segundo, up in Pasadena, that satellite, when it was first built in the late 50s weighing a little bit, over 30 pounds. And I'm sure that each and every part was custom made and definitely made by US companies. Fast forward to today. The global supply chain is so tightly coupled, and frankly many industries are so specialized, almost specialized regionally around the planet. We focus every day to guarantee the integrity of every component that we put in our space systems is absolutely critical to the operations of those satellites and we're dependent upon them, but it becomes more difficult and more difficult to understand the heritage, if you will, of some of the parts that are used, the thousands of parts that are used in some of our satellites that are literally school bus sized. The space industry, especially national security space sector is relatively small compared to other commercial industries. And we're moving towards using more and more parts from non US companies. Cybersecurity and cyber awareness have to be baked in from the beginning if we're going to be using parts that maybe we don't necessarily understand 100% like an Explorer one, the lineage of that particular part. The environmental difficulties in space are well known. The radiation environment, the temperature extremes, the vacuum, those require specialized component. And the US military is not the only customer in that space. In fact, we're definitely not the dominant customer in space anymore. All those factors require us along with our other government partners and many different commercial space organizations to keep a very close eye on our supply chains, from a quality perspective, a security perspective and availability. There's open source reporting on supply training intrusions from many different breaches of commercial retailers to the infectious spread of compromised patches, if you will. And our adversaries are aware of these techniques. As I mentioned earlier, with other forms of attack, considering our supply chains and development networks really becomes fair game for our adversaries. So we have to take that threat seriously. Between the government and industry sectors here in the US. We're also working with our industry partners to enact stronger defenses and assess our own vulnerabilities. Last fall, we completed an extensive review of all of our major contracts here at Space and Missile System Center to determine the levels of cyber security requirements we've implemented across our portfolio. And it sounds really kind of businessy geeky, if you will. Hey, we looked at our contracts to make sure that we had the right clauses in our contracts to address cybersecurity as dynamically as we possibly could. And so we found ourselves having to add new language to our contracts, to require system developers, to implement some more advanced protective measures in this evolving cyber security environment. So that data handling and supply chain protections from contract inception to launch and operations were taken into account. Cyber security really is a key performance parameter for us now. Performance of the system, It's as important as cost, it's as important as schedule, because if we deliver the perfect system on time and on cost, it can perform that missile warning or that communications mission perfectly, but it's not cyber secure. If it's doesn't have cyber protections built into it, or the ability to implement mitigations against cyber threats, then we've essentially fielded a shoe box in space that doesn't do the CA the war fighter or the nation any good. Supply chain risk management is a major challenge for us. We're doing a lot to coordinate with our industry partners. We're all facing it head on to try and build secure and trusted components that keep our confidence as leaders, firefighters, and baristas as the case may be. But it is a challenge. And we're trying to rise to that challenge. >> This is so exciting this new area, because it really touches everything. Talk about geeking out on the tech, the hardware, the systems but also you put your kind of MBA hat on you go, what's the ROI of extra development and how things get built. Because the always the exciting thing for space geeks is like, if you're building cool stuff, it's exciting, but you still have to build. And cybersecurity has proven that security has to be baked in from the beginning and be thought as a system architecture. So you're still building things, which means you got to acquire things, you got to acquire parts, you got acquire build software and sustain it. How is security impacting the acquisition and the sustainment of these systems for space? >> Yeah. From initial development, through planning for the acquisition, design, development, our production fielding and sustainment, it impacts all aspects of the life cycle, John. We simply, especially from the concept of baking in cybersecurity, we can't wait until something is built and then try and figure out how to make it cyber secure. So we've moved way further towards working side by side with our system developers to strengthen cybersecurity from the very beginning of a systems development, cyber security, and the resilience associated with it really have to be treated as a key system attribute. As I mentioned earlier, equivalent with data rates or other metrics of performance. We like to talk in the space world about mission assurance and mission assurance has always sort of taken us as we technically geek out. Mission assurance has always taken us to the will this system work in space. Can it work in a vacuum? Can it work in as it transfers through the Van Allen radiation belt or through the Southern hemisphere's electromagnetic anomaly? Will it work out in space? And now from a resiliency perspective, yeah, it has to work in space. It's got to be functional in space, but it's also got to be resistant to these cybersecurity threats. It's not just, I think a General D.T Thompson quoted this term. It's not just widget assurance anymore. It's mission assurance. How does that satellite operator that ground control segment operate while under attack? So let me break your question a little bit, just for purposes of discussion into really two parts, cybersecurity, for systems that are new and cybersecurity for systems that are in sustainment are kind of old and legacy. Obviously there's cyber vulnerabilities that threatened both, and we really have to employ different strategies for defensive of each one. For new systems. We're desperately trying to implement across the Department of Defense and particularly in the space world, a kind of a dev sec ops methodology and practice to delivering software faster and with greater security for our space systems. Here at SMC, we have a program called enterprise ground services, which is a toolkit, basically a collection of tools for common command and control of different satellite systems, EGS as we call it has an integrated suite for defensive cyber capabilities. Network operators can use these tools to gain unprecedented insight to data flows and to monitor space network traffic for anomalies or other potential indicators of a bad behavior, malicious behavior, if you will, it's rudimentary at this point, but because we're using DevSecOps and that incremental development approach, as we scale it, it just becomes more and more capable. Every product increment that we feel. Here at LA Air Force Base, we have the United Space Force's West Coast Software Factory, which we've dubbed the Kobayashi Maru. They're using those agile DevOps software development practices to deliver a space awareness software to the combined space operations center. Affectionately called the CSpock that CSpock is just on the road from Cal Poly there in San Luis Obispo at Vandenberg Air Force Base. They've so securely linked the sea Spock with other space operation centers around the planet, our allies, Australia, Canada, and the UK. We're partnering with all of them to enable secure and enhanced combined space operations. So lots of new stuff going on as we bake in new development capabilities for our space systems. But as I mentioned earlier, we've got large constellations of satellites on orbit right now. Some of them are well in excess of a decade or more or old on orbit. And so the design aspects of those satellites are several decades old. But we still have to worry about them cause they're critical to our space capabilities. We've been working with an air force material command organization called CROWS, which stands for the Cyber Resiliency Office for Weapon Systems to assess all of those legacy platforms from a cyber security perspective and develop defensive strategies and potential hardware and software upgrades to those systems to better enable them to live through this increasingly cybersecurity concerned era that we currently live in. Our industry partners have been critical to both of those different avenues. Both new systems and legacy systems. We're working closely with them to defend and upgrade national assets and develop the capabilities to do similar with new national assets coming online. The vulnerabilities of our space systems really kind of threatened the way we've done business in the past, both militarily and in the case of GPS economically. The impacts of that cybersecurity risk are clear in our acquisition and sustainment processes, but I've got to tell you, as the threat vectors change, as the vulnerabilities change, we've got to be nimble enough, agile enough, to be able to bounce back and forth. We can't just say, many people in the audience are probably familiar with the RMF or the Risk Management Framework approach to reviewing the cyber security of a system. We can't have program managers and engineers just accomplish an RMF on a system. And then, hey, high five, we're all good. It's a journey, not a destination, that's cybersecurity. And it's a constant battle rhythm through our weapon systems lifecycle, not just a single event. >> I want to get to this commercial business needs and your needs on the next question. But before I go there, you mentioned agile. And I see that clearly because when you have accelerated innovation cycles, you've got to be faster. And we saw this in the computer industry, mainframes, mini computers, and then we started getting beyond maybe when the internet hit and PCs came out, you saw the big enterprises, the banks and government start to work with startups. And it used to be a joke in the entrepreneurial circles is that, there's no way if you are a startup you're ever going to get a contract with a big business enterprise. Now that used to be for public sector and certainly for you guys. So as you see startups out there and there's acquisition involved, I'm sure would love to have a contract with Space Force. There's an ROI calculation where if it's in space and you have a sustainment view and it's software, you might have a new kind of business model that could be attractive to startups. Could you share your thoughts on the folks who want to be a supplier to you, whether they're a startup or an existing business that wants to be agile, but they might not be that big company. >> John, that's a fantastic question. We're desperately trying to reach out to those new space advocates, to those startups, to those what we sometimes refer to, within the Department of Defense, those non traditional defense contractors. A couple of things just for thinking purposes on some of the things that we're trying to highlight. Three years ago, we created here at Space and Missile System Center, the Space Enterprise Consortium to provide a platform, a contractual vehicle, really to enable us to rapidly prototype, development of space systems and to collaborate between the US Space Force, traditional defense contractors, non traditional vendors like startups, and even some academic institutions. SPEC, as we call it, Space Enterprise Consortium uses a specialized contracting tool to get contracts awarded quickly. Many in the audience may be familiar with other transaction agreements. And that's what SPEC is based on. And so far in just three years, SPEC has awarded 75 different prototyping contracts worth over $800 million with a 36% reduction in time to award. And because it's a consortium based competition for these kinds of prototyping efforts, the barrier to entry for small and nontraditional, for startups, even for academic institutions to be able to compete for these kinds of prototyping has really lowered. These types of partnerships that we've been working through on spec have really helped us work with smaller companies who might not have the background or expertise in dealing with the government or in working with cyber security for their systems, both our developmental systems and the systems that they're designing and trying to build. We want to provide ways for companies large and small to partner together in support kind of mutually beneficial relationships between all. Recently at the Annual Air Force Association conference that I mentioned earlier, I moderated a panel with several space industry leaders, all from big traditional defense contractors, by the way. And they all stressed the importance of building bridges and partnerships between major contractors in the defense industry and new entrance. And that helps us capture the benefits of speed and agility that come with small companies and startups, as well as the expertise and specialized skill sets of some of those larger contractors that we rely on day in and day out. Advanced cyber security protections and utilization of secure facilities are just a couple of things that I think we could be prioritizing more so in those collaborations. As I mentioned earlier, the SPEC has been very successful in awarding a number of different prototyping contracts and large dollar values. And it's just going to get better. There's over 400 members of the space enterprise consortium, 80% of them are non traditional kinds of vendors. And we just love working with them. Another thing that many people in the audience may be familiar with in terms of our outreach to innovators, if you will, and innovators that include cyber security experts is our space pitch day events. So we held our first event last November in San Francisco, where we awarded over a two day period about $46 million to 30 different companies that had potentially game changing ideas. These were phase two small business innovative research efforts that we awarded with cash on the spot. We're planning on holding our second space pitch day in the spring of 2021. We're planning on doing it right here in Los Angeles, COVID-19 environment permitting. And we think that these are fantastic venues for identifying and working with high-speed startups, and small businesses who are interested in really, truly partnering with the US Air Force. It's, as I said before, it's a really exciting time to be a part of this business. And working with the innovation economy is something that the Department of Defense really needs to do in that the innovation that we used to think was ours. That 80% of the industrial base innovation that came from the Department of Defense, the script has been flipped there. And so now more than 70%, particularly in space innovation comes from the commercial sector, not from the defense business itself. And so that's a tsunami of investment and a tsunami of a capability. And I need to figure out how to get my surfboard out and ride it, you know what I mean? >> Yeah, It's one of those things where the script has been flipped, but it's exciting because it's impacting everything. When you're talking about systems architecture? You're talking about software, you're talking about a business model. You're talking about dev sec opsx from a technical perspective, but now you have a business model innovation. All the theaters are exploding in innovation, technical, business, personnel. This brings up the workforce challenge. You've got the cyber needs for the US Space Force, It's probably great ROI model for new kinds of software development that could be priced into contracts. That's a entrepreneurial innovation, you've got the business model theater, you've got the personnel. How does the industry adopt and change? You guys are clearly driving this. How does the industry adjust to you? >> Yeah. So I think a great way to answer that question is to just talk about the kind of people that we're trying to prioritize in the US Space Force from an acquisition perspective, and in this particular case from a cybersecurity perspective. As I mentioned earlier, it's the most exciting time to be in space programs, really since the days of Apollo. Just to put it in terms that maybe have an impact with the audience. From 1957 until today, approximately 9,000 satellites have been launched from the various space varying countries around the planet. Less than 2000 of those 9,000 are still up on orbit and operational. And yet in the new space regime players like Space X have plans to launch, 12,000 satellites for some of their constellations alone. It really is a remarkable time in terms of innovation and fielding of space capabilities and all of those space capabilities, whether they're commercial, civil, or defense are going to require appropriate cybersecurity protections. It's just a really exciting time to be working in stuff like this. And so folks like the folks in this audience who have a passion about space and a passion about cybersecurity are just the kind of people that we want to work with. Cause we need to make sure our systems are secure and resilient. We need folks that have technical and computing expertise, engineering skills to be able to design cyber secure systems that can detect and mitigate attacks. But we also, as you alluded to, we need people that have that business and business acumen, human networking background, so that we can launch the startups and work with the non traditional businesses. Help to bring them on board help, to secure both their data and our data and make sure our processes and systems are free as much as possible from attack. For preparation, for audience members who are young and maybe thinking about getting into this trade space, you got to be smart on digital networking. You got to understand basic internet protocols, concepts, programming languages, database design. Learn what you can for penetration or vulnerability testing and a risk assessment. I will tell you this, and I don't think he will, I know he will not mind me telling you this, but you got to be a lifelong learner and so two years ago, I'm at home evening and I get a phone call on my cell phone and it's my boss, the commander of Air Force Space command, General, J. Raymond, who is now currently the Chief of Space Operations. And he is on temporary duty, flying overseas. He lands where he's going and first thing he does when he lands is he calls me and he goes JT, while I was traveling, I noticed that there were eBooks available on the commercial airliner I was traveling on and there was an ebook on something called scrumming and agile DevSecOps. And I read it, have you read it? And I said, no, sir. But if you tell me what the title of the book is, I will read it. And so I got to go to my staff meeting, the very next week, the next time we had a staff meeting and tell everybody in the staff meeting, hey, if the four star and the three star can read the book about scrumming, then I'm pretty sure all of you around this table and all our lieutenants and our captains our GS13s, All of our government employees can get smart on the scrumming development process. And interestingly as another side, I had a telephone call with him last year during the holidays, where he was trying to take some leave. And I said, sir, what are you up to today? Are you making eggnog for the event tonight or whatever. And the Chief of Space Operations told me no, I'm trying to teach myself Python. I'm at lesson two, and it's not going so well, but I'm going to figure this out. And so that kind of thing, if the chief of staff or the Chief of Space Operations can prioritize scrumming and Python language and innovation in his daily schedule, then we're definitely looking for other people who can do that. And we'll just say, lower levels of rank throughout our entire space force enterprise. Look, we don't need people that can code a satellite from scratch, but we need to know, we need to have people that have a basic grasp of the programming basics and cybersecurity requirements. And that can turn those things into meaningful actions, obviously in the space domain, things like basic physics and orbital mechanics are also important spaces, not an intuitive domain. So under understanding how things survive on orbit is really critical to making the right design and operational decisions. And I know there's probably a lot, because of this conference. I know there's probably a whole lot of high speed cybersecurity experts out in the audience. And I need those people in the US Space Force. The country is counting on it, but I wouldn't discount having people that are just cyber aware or cyber savvy. I have contracting officers and logisticians and program managers, and they don't have to be high end cybersecurity experts, but they have to be aware enough about it to be able to implement cyber security protections into our space systems. So the skill set is really, really broad. Our adversaries are pouring billions of dollars into designing and fielding offensive and destructive space, cybersecurity weapons. They repeatedly shown really a blatant disregard of safety and international norms for good behavior on orbit. And the cyber security aspects of our space systems is really a key battleground going forward so that we can maintain that. As I mentioned before, peaceful global comments of space, we really need all hands on deck. If you're interested in helping in uniform, if you're interested in helping, not in uniform, but as a government employee, a commercial or civil employee to help us make cyber security more important or more able to be developed for our space systems. And we'd really love to work with you or have you on the team to build that safe and secure future for our space systems. >> Lieutenant General John Thompson, great insight. Thank you for sharing all that awesome stories too, and motivation for the young next generation. The United States Space Force approach to cybersecurity. Really amazing talk, thank you for your time. Final parting question is, as you look out and you have your magic wand, what's your view for the next few years in terms of things that we could accomplish? It's a super exciting time. What do you hope for? >> So first of all, John, thanks to you and thanks to Cal Poly for the invitation and thanks to everybody for their interest in cybersecurity, especially as it relates to space systems, that's here at the conference. There's a quote, and I'll read it here from Bernard Schriever, who was the founder, if you will, a legend in a DoD space, the founder of the Western development division, which was a predecessor organization to Space and Missile System Center, General Schriever, I think captures the essence of how we see the next couple of years. "The world has an ample supply of people "who can always come up with a dozen good reasons "why new ideas will not work and should not be tried, "but the people who produce progress are breed apart. "They have the imagination, "the courage and the persistence to find solutions." And so I think if you're hoping that the next few years of space innovation and cybersecurity innovation are going to be upon a pony ride at the County fair, then perhaps you should look for another line of work, because I think the next few years in space and cybersecurity innovation are going to be more like a rodeo and a very dynamic rodeo as it goes. It is an awesome privilege to be part of this ecosystem. It's really an honor for me to be able to play some small role in the space ecosystem and trying to improve it while I'm trying to improve the chances of the United States of America in a space war fighting environment. And so I thank all of you for participating today and for this little bit of time that you've allowed me to share with you. Thank you. >> Sir, thank you for your leadership and thank you for the time for this awesome event, Space and Cyber Cybersecurity Symposium 2020, I'm John Furrier on behalf of Cal Poly, thanks for watching. (mellow music)

>> live from San Francisco, celebrating 10 years of high tech coverage. It's the Cube covering Veum World 2019 brought to you by IBM Wear and its ecosystem partners. >> Oh, good afternoon and welcome back as we continue our coverage live here on the cue from Mosconi North in beautiful San Francisco. Clouds of melted away In a way, of course, we're still talking about hybrid Multi. They're not going anywhere. In fact, there are very much entrenched into this show. John Wall's Justin Warren. Glad to have You with us. Joined now by Kevin Chats. Camera. Who's the vice president of Product management Enterprise and SP Solutions of Dental Technologies. Kevin. Good to see you again, sir. Nice to see you, too. Two shots in one week on the Q. We love that and Wait Holmes, who's the director of technical product management at Veum? Where? Wade, Good to see you this afternoon. >> But if you also >> so this this is kind of your party here, VM where? I mean, just give me your impression so far. First off, just kind of what you're sensing that the vibe here of the show and, ah, the kind of work that you're getting done. >> So the vibe here is excitement. I mean, I think everyone's excited about a lot of the announcements around either probably Pacific and how we're redefining the V's Fair platform and Tan Xue and now these capabilities on how these capabilities are going to be able to enhance our capabilities of our cloud provider partners. So I'm part of our club fighter salt for business unit, who specifically makes products and solutions for our cloud provider V, C P P program. And I think couldn't beam or excitement. And they've been a crescendo the past few years and be anywhere and b m world. And I think this has been one of the best ever. >> If the waves hitting the shore big time now. So you you talk about cloud providers about service providers. I mean, one of the same. Or Or how do you guys define that now? Or how do you separate that? >> Yeah, I think these terms are largely used interchangeably. To a large degree, I think if we look att at the cloud industry in the provider industry over the last several years, maybe about 5 to 7 years ago, there was a belief from every single cloud provider that they needed to build a scaled platform like a W s like Microsoft Azure like Google Compute. And that they were all in the business of a race to building the most robust, most scalable, most feature rich, most differentiated cloud that was largely erased the bottom from an economics perspective. And I think just about all of all of the service providers and now these cloud providers that we work with have really moved to a different model. What they've recognized is first off. The race to the hyper scale is not a profitable business that you want to race against. Number two. Ah, the transition for large enterprise I t small enterprise medium business to the cloud is so complex that it's not a game of building clouds and not a game of building platforms. It's a game of building practices at this point and cloud providers or building practices that allow them to find their own niche and differentiation off differentiated offerings. Whether that be on Prem Private Cloud hosted Private Cloud and then partnering with the hyper scale er's for the massively scaled multi tenant cloud world. And when we start to realize that this managed offering these cloud practices are there to help the enterprise and small medium business in their transition to the public cloud in transition to cloud and moving towards more managed I t offerings. What we're finding is the reemergence of these cloud providers in a meaningful way, starting to bridge the gap of skill, set, mismatches and expertise. Mismatches at Enterprise I t just doesn't have to embrace cloud technology. >> Yeah, for a long time there, there was the cloud Geraghty, who were saying that the public cloud is the only way this is gonna happen. Everything's going to be there. And some some of us I would count myself among them was a little bit skeptical about that. That approach to things and a lot of it with a lot of the pressure on on service providers was you don't even bother getting into the cloud business. Just shut up shop and go home. This is never going to be a good idea for you to compete in this at all. And it sounds like that that some of these providers have actually gone. You know what we've We've got a viable business here. There are customers here who need things done that we do really well that are not available out in public Cloud. So what are some of the things that some of the things that you're hearing from these cloud cloud providers, that that they are finding from customers that they value, that they not finding anywhere else? >> So I grew 100% that the club wider there, find their business is still growing, and it's due to their expertise. Is Kevin said, that the building practices they understand enterprise customers? Veum, Where business? They understand the platform that they're running the enterprise and are able to provide additional differentiated service's while leverage in the technology that the enterprise they're utilizing in their own data centers. So it's able to pride value out of service is with the same platform that air using in their own premises and providing those capability of same platform in a cloud model. So, given a pragmatic way for enterprises to be able to migrate to a cloud in a hybrid cloud, >> are there specific practices you noticing that is that kind of stand out as being particularly common? >> Yeah, s so I think that through the answer is yes, right? And the answer is that vertical expertise is king here, right? Understanding the industries in which the cloud platforms get deployed and how those industries consume. Resource is the use cases. How they monetize their business is key for success. But I think that what we where we've lived over the last several years is that the building blocks for all of these vertical industries, the only uniform way you had to do it was with the massively scaled public cloud providers. The hyper scale er's what we're doing now, Adele Technologies Cloud is we're enabling a consistent set of building blocks for all of these vertical industries that all of these vertical X three experts in the vertical industries across the cloud providers can then bring a common building block and go address the complex problems of building the use cases, building the monetization models, building the differentiated feature set. >> So I mean, can you give me an example? I mean, what you talking about? It's like if you're going about health care versus transportation versus manufacturing, some things that were going to a different way, we're going to slice this That's right. It's a different >> set of ecosystem partners. It's a different set of vertical applications, a different set of problems. It's different set of monetization models across the board, right? You know, retail has very specific requirements around Leighton See sensitivity and the need to be able to address micro transactions. Security capabilities of those transactions or what not, Health care is governed by hip on various other legislative. When you build in Europe, you have, ah, various data protection and privacy implications to keep in mind. It's right, so all of this is not typically available in public Cloud Public Cloud is built for a lowest common denominator. One size fits all, and then you come bring differentiation. On top of that now is enterprise. I T organizations start to migrate their workloads to Public Cloud. They're looking for consistency in terms of how they've lived before and how they work before how they've operated before. How do they migrate those applications, right? It's not I'm building everything natively for public cloud is that I have an entire set of applications that were designed in my enterprise i d environment that I just want to find a new way to operate in VM wears a consistent abstraction. Layers is really the path forward, So DT Cloud on Deli emcee and TT Cloud leveraging the public cloud providers in the V M wear abstraction with both feet spheres. Well, it's vey cloud foundations, eyes really a commonality that they can now the uses a foundational building block for all their service is >> yes. So where one of the things that a lot of customers have invested over a decade or Maur envy em where? And they have a lot of processes and tools and skills that they have invested in. And it sounds like for some of these cloud providers specializing in a particular industry, that there's a risk there that you will end up with building blocks that, yes, they're customized for one particular thing. But now I have to operate them a little bit differently. And now I've got a lot of different ways of doing things, and particularly as a provider, then that that adds cost. And I want to try to get some of those costs out there because they think that influences my margin. So is the choice. Of'em were one way of dealing with that because I can maintain that same consistent way of managing things. >> Absolutely. And that's key to some of the work that VM wear and Dell has been working together on two. Allow for Kevin Mention, Adele Technology Cloud Platform, which the baseline of that is being more cloud foundation. So been ableto have that homogeneous operational model, and Mona's data plane set is the same V sphere and XXV sand based originality perspective. So the operational model, whether it's in the providers infrastructure or whether it's on premises within enterprise is similar. >> And I think there's even 1/3 vector to this, which is, um, yeah, one public cloud provider is not gonna win. All of the public cloud providers are going to exist, and the scale of a Microsoft azure and the scale of an AWS on a scale of a Google compute put them in position to continue to lead this industry forward. And it's it's difficult to bet on one horse, right? So the GMC model on the DT Cloud model allows us to be able to scale across all of these different cloud providers and as an enterprise organization that's making specific decisions based on region or based on other financials that some of these workloads are going to say in AWS, and some of them are going to sit in Microsoft Azure, etcetera, etcetera is a common abstraction across all of them. >> But at that point, I mean the fact that you're talking about, um, vertical practices, right? Verticals having practices that might be unique to their particular industry. And now you're talking about them deciding that they might all flowed work Thio, maybe an azure. Maybe in Google. Maybe I'd be it. Whatever, Um, I mean multiple complexities for you in dealing with that because you're gonna be the translator, right? You've got to be. You've got to be multi lingual, not only within in the cloud world, but also in a vertical world too. Right? So tough road for you guys to provide that kind of flexibility and that kind of knowledge. >> Oh, I mean, that's the key to the software and solutions that GM was providing and allowing for solutions and sat space capabilities to provide a modernise, softer, defined capabilities across clouds or a and be able to manage things across, such as cost in via cloud health and other manage service's capabilities by our software platform and then be ableto have this. These capabilities in the Bean Imlay consumed by providers and turnkey fashion by utilizing del technologies, bx rail are and VCF one VX rail and having us all package together, and so that providers no longer have to focus on building a core infrastructure. But they're now able to focus on that integration layer. Focus on the additional higher level service is that are able to stitch together the use this multi cloud environment >> decision logic that our customers have. It's just so complex, and I think that the message that we've heard loud and clear from them is that they feel like once they're in particular ecosystem, they're locked into that ecosystem. And the more that we can do that give them flexibility to bring these ecosystems together and leverage the benefits and the capabilities and the regional and geo location of just about all the different ecosystems that exists and build their own ecosystems. On top of that, especially if you're a cloud provider, is really what they're looking to do. And when the foundational building blocks all look different, the integration look different the automation look different. The orchestration look different in the storage. Later look different. It's just It was impossible, right? It's really on us to provide an abstraction to make that easy for them to accomplish their business. >> Consistent foundation is critical, and that's what we're bringing through the cloud provider today. >> One thing that has changed from from technology of 12 12 15 20 years ago is the consumption model that cloud has provided. S. So what are you seeing around service providers, providing that pretty much you have to provide if your cloud provided you have to provide some kind of consumption model because that's what people have in their minds when they think about about Cloud it is. It's not just about the technology side of things. Actually, we're out the business operations about, you know, the financing and the funding models of things. What are you seeing with the cloud providers and service providers? How are they changing the way that they allow people to finance the buy of this infrastructure? >> So that's one of the pieces that, in being where Rendell is working together to allow for not just software, which through the visa program all of our software solutions are consumed through a subscription like model. So it's pay as you go, but also be able to consume hardware and consume the turnkey patches package so that VCF on Vieques rail and the Cloud Provider platform can be consumed in a pay as you go subscription model, which is a way that providers want to be able to then provides software and capabilities to their enterprise customers. >> Have they completely changed across to being purely consumption? Or do we still have a lot of industries that preferred by things that with Catholics >> it would be fantastic if the world converged on one answer? Everything is always easier when there's one answer. But I think, ah, one of the things we recognize is that, ah, and it's true and technology. It's true in business models. It's true. In operational models, there's never in. It's never just a or answer right. It's always an end, and there's a need for us to embrace multiple different models in order to meet the needs of our customers. And even a single service provider will find particular areas that they wanted, consumption based model and others that they realize that it's a well entrenched business for them, and the risk is a little bit lower, and they're willing to take on that risk and look at a Cap IX base model right there. Certainly financial implications to both an Op X and the Catholics model. There's tax implications, and you know where. We're still a little bit all over the map in terms of their preferences. >> Hopefully, we'll see that shake out a little bit and we'll have some standard patents to match the practices that will just make it a little bit easier to design the solution. >> I think the Saturn standard pattern that I expect to emerge is that we have to do everything >> for everyone >> in every way that they want to see. >> Oh, you left there, Kevin. I can't imagine that being too difficult. Everything. Everyone it all at every time. That's right. All right. Hey, thanks for the time of and the discussion and good luck with handling that. I know. That's a that's a big lift on. I know we're joking, but, uh, it's a great world for you. Certainly exciting time. And we thank you for your time here. >> Thank you. Thank you guys appreciate the time. >> I appreciate being World 2019. Coverage continues right here on the Cube. We're live and we're in San Francisco.

>> Live from Las Vegas, it's The Cube, covering Magento Imagine 2019. Brought to you by Adobe. >> Welcome to The Cube. Lisa Martin with Jeff Frick, live at The Wynn Las Vegas, for Magento Imagine 2019. This is a really buzzy event. All e-commerce innovation, tech talks, with about 3,500 folks, and we're excited to welcome to The Cube Tina Mulqueen, CEO of Kindred PR Marketing Agency as well as contribute with Forbes, Digital Trends, expert on e-commerce, I would say. Welcome to The Cube. >> Thank you so much for having me. I'm happy to be here. >> So we were talking about influencer marketing before we went live. And you have been doing, been working in that kind of before it was even a concept. We were just saying how much marketing has changed in the last few years alone, and how brands have had to to survive and be profitable, evolve with that. Give us a bit of a perspective, first on kind of Kindred PR, what you're doing, how you got involved in influencer marketing. >> Sure, so I was really fortunate to have some great mentors early in my marketing career that kind of ushered me along in the right direction and said hey, I think we should really pay attention to this whole Twitter thing and what's happening with these real, everyday people that are amassing a following on Twitter, and that's really where it started was on that platform. So I ended up on a team for CBS that did some of the influencer marketing for Vanity Fair and for their coverage of The Insider and Entertainment Tonight, and we would work with them to get event coverage to trend online. And as you mentioned, that was before, really, we knew what influencer marketing was. It wasn't really, it didn't have to a name, so to speak, at that time. And so I learned a lot from then, and we have kind of come full circle with influencer marketing, where it, I was at first working with these sort of micro influencers, as we would call them now. And then it was a lot of brands working with more of the celebrity influencers, like the Kim Kardashians of the world, and now it's gone back to brands are really interested in these micro influencers again because of the concept of authenticity, which is a big one right now, that marketers are paying attention to. >> Exactly what I was going to say. >> So how do they dance around the authenticity? It's such an interesting and knife edge, right? Because you want people to promote your products because they like them, and that's the original celebrity endorsement back in the early days, right? People actually did use the product that they endorsed. But now you get paid endorsements, and people can see through that. At the same time, it obviously has some results, or people would not continue to invest, and now it's come full circle, whereas you said because of the internet, I with some particular interest can reach a huge number of people around a really small interest set, because of the distribution of the internet. >> Right. So what's interesting is, influencer marketing, when we first really started talking about influencer marketing, we treated it as word-of-mouth marketing. And it had some incredible benefits over some more traditional kinds of marketing because it was word of mouth. And then because influencer marketing had a lot of investments, brands were investing heavily in influencer marketing, and we were dealing more with celebrity influencers, consumers became smarter as well during this time. And then they started looking at these celebrity endorsements and realizing that these are not real endorsements. And so I think that's where we're seeing this shift back to micro influencers, and people that are really using the products that these brands are touting. >> But how does a brand, how do they engage with the micro influencer? >> Actually, there's a really great case study that I always use as an example of this, and it's actually BECCA Cosmetics, which, BECCA's one of the, I think the number one, sales cosmetic line in Sephora. And they reached out, I think it was about a year ago, maybe a couple of years ago now. They reached out to an influencer because they realized that their website traffic was going up every time a certain influencer would go live on YouTube and was using their products. So BECCA reached out to this influencer that was organically using the products, and collaborated with the influencer to create a line of products of her own. And that really, I think they sold out within the first hour when they actually went live with the product line. So that's a great example of how to engage with an influencer that is organically using your brand, and making sure that you're also including their audience, in, like, the iteration of the product, because then the audience of the influencer is also invested. >> And what defines influencer versus a micro influencer? I imagine the sheer volume of followers, but there's got to be more to it than that, because there's this really cool example that you gave, what BECCA Cosmetics found was much more probably authenticity. So talk to us about not just the number drivers there, but some of the other, I mean, it's one thing to be able to blast something to 100,000 people. It's a whole other thing to actually be able to engage their followers and convert it to a transaction. >> Right. So I think that often when we hear brands talking about micro or macro influencers, they really are talking about the number of followers, but I think you bring up a really great point with respect to that level of engagement of that following and how to really tap into somebody that is engaging their following. So I think brands are going toward actual experts in their field, or actual experts in the product line in a bigger capacity now because they know that what they say is going to be more meaningful to their audience and more engaging to their audience, rather than based on number of followers alone. So there's a lot of different things that are going into play to create a better context for marketing. >> I'm curious how other metrics have evolved beyond just the transaction. So there's the followers, and then, you know, there's obviously transactions, as you said, there's website traffic. But as people, as brands are starting to realize that engagement, ongoing engagement, interaction with content is part of the relationship, separate from and a value to the actual transaction. How have their metrics changed? How are they reviewing these programs? I'm sure a lot of it at first was, "Well, we hope it works, we think it's working." But how has that matured over time? >> It definitely has matured, and there are some platforms out there that will try to quantify influencer marketing in different ways than we've seen in the past. It's gotten a lot more sophisticated. That said, marketers still have a real challenge ahead of them in terms of quantifying their efforts in a meaningful way, because it's still hard to put a number to brand sentiment. And that's a lot of what influencer marketing is. >> Right. And is it, from an investment point of view, I always think of people with a large bucket of money, right, they put a very small piece in their venture fund, which has a real low probability of a hit, but if it hits, it hits big. And when they're budgeting for the influencer program, is it kind of like that? You know, we've got this carve-out that we are not quite sure what the ROI is. We think it's important. We don't want to miss out. Versus, you know, what I'm spending on print or what I'm spending on TV, or what I'm spending on kind of traditional campaigns. How are marketers looking at that within their portfolio? >> It is a great questions, and I think that marketers know that they need to invest in influencer marketing, so we're seeing an influx of investment coming in through influencer marketing. That said, I've been in a lot of conversations with brands that are talking about, do we go the macro influencer route or do we go with the micro influencer route? And right now I think that brands are starting to realize that if you get a lot of voices or a number of voices that are sharing the same sentiment and that are able to feed off of each other with respect to the conversation and amplify each other because even if you have micro influencers with smaller following count, they're going to amplify each other's content, and that ends up in the long run, as we talked about, being more authentic. So that's where a lot of the conversations are going right now in terms of how to spend that influencer marketing budget and weighing the pros and cons of those different options. >> Well, marketing is and should be a science these days. There is so much data about all of us from everything we do every day that brands need to be able to evaluate that, leveraging platforms from Adobe Magento for example, going back to the BECCA Cosmetics and thinking well, if they evaluate these micro influencers and the lift and the traffic that they get, if they're actually using that data appropriately then that should be able to inform how they're actually carving up their investment dollars into which influencers, macro or micro, they know that is going to make the biggest impact on revenue. So it behooves marketing organizations to become scientific and actually use all this consumer data that we are all putting out through our phones, on social devices, constantly. >> Absolutely. I think it's a great point. And I hear often from clients too that they have, they've invested in these platforms that will sort of try to analyze the data, but they're not doing anything with that data. So a lot of e-commerce merchants and retailers, if you don't have a strategy on how you're going to implement that what you're learning from your consumers, then it ends up falling flat. >> What's the biggest surprise you hear from marketers today in terms of this influencer marketing? Are they confused, they're getting it, are there any, I mean you had one really good success story, are there any other, you know, kind of success stories you can share that this is a very different way to get your message into the marketplace? >> You know, one thing that I think people should do more of, that it kind of surprises me that we aren't seeing more of is using media as a channel for e-commerce merchants to have an affiliate strategy. So basically utilizing influencers in collaboration with a media channel to be able to have a new revenue stream. I think that that's something that we haven't seen very often. It's something that when I was working as the CMO for a public trading company called Grey Cloak Technologies, we worked with Sherell's, which is a company that we were acquiring at the time to consult with Marie Claire on how to incorporate influencers into their e-commerce strategy as a publisher. And that's something that I think that people could take more advantage of. >> Even just with affiliate codes or coupon codes and those types of things? They're just not really executing on it that well. >> Right, right. And I think that part of it is a technological component, like the technology isn't quite there to be able to implement, well, to be able to implement that on a wide scale. Like Marie Claire, Sherell's ended up creating the technology for them to be able to incorporate influencers into their e-commerce strategy. But I think that we're going to see more of that. >> Right, because for the influencer, that's one of many sources of revenue that they need to execute on if they're actually going to build, you know, a lifestyle business around being, you know, quote-unquote influencer. They need that affiliate revenue on top of their advertising revenue and all these other little pieces, selling t-shirts, etc. >> Right, right. And we're seeing some companies that are coming to the table to try to provide solutions. One company that I've been watching for a while is called COSIGN, and their platform basically allows influencers to integrate on the platform and link things through social media so that people can buy through a picture, on Facebook for example. So I think we're going to see more of those types of technologies as well. >> Let's talk kind of on the spirit of trends and some of the things that you are seeing. There was this big trend in the last few years of everybody wanting to be able to, we can get anything through Amazon, right? And we can get in a matter of hours. But looking at, and seeing some big box stores that did not do a good job of being able to blend physical, digital, virtual, all these storefronts. What though are you seeing in terms of companies, maybe enterprises, needing to sort of still have or offer a brick and mortar experience? Like we were talking to HP Inc. this morning, he was on stage, and this click and collect program that they launched in APEC where depending on their region, people need to be able to start and actually transact online, but actually fulfill in store. In terms of like, maybe, either reverse engineering online to brick and mortar or hybridizing the two, what are some of the trends that you're seeing that businesses really need to start paying attention to? >> Sure, so I think that omnichannel has been a buzzword for some time, and the way that marketers are looking at omnichannel now, or the way that retailers are looking at omnichannel now is a little bit different. At first, when we started talking about the concept of create this sort of seamless interplay between brick and mortar and online storefronts, it was about taking the brick and mortar experience and putting it online. And now I think marketers are getting better at realizing that those are two completely different channels, and your customer's in a different place in both of those channels. So you need to give them an experience that is relevant for the channel, and it can be totally different than what we're used to in traditional retail stores. But brick and mortar obviously does have a place. We're seeing Amazon come out with their own brick and mortar locations, and we're seeing different e-commerce startups have brick and mortar locations and be very successful with them too as an e-commerce first storefront. So there's definitely a place for brick and mortar. I think people will always have to shop in brick and mortar storefronts, although we obviously are going to get more sophisticated delivery options, and that's coming as well. But I think that it's really an interplay and it's understanding what the channels are and where your consumers are at in that space. >> And then the whole next generation of that, which we're hearing about here, like shopping inside of Instagram. So now as opposed to a destination or I'm going to some place to buy something, whether it's online or a store, now it's actually just part of experiencing the media, as you said, and oh by the way, while I'm here, that looks interesting, I'll take one of those as well. Whole different level of experience that the retailers now have to support. >> Right, absolutely. There are other technology platforms too that, like one of them is basically producing video content that you can scroll over, or let's say you were just watching a commercial on your television, or maybe it's not even a commercial. Maybe it's like real long form content, and if you scroll over a product in the image, you can purchase it out of that video. And so these things are coming as well. It's really an exciting time. But it's an exciting time to be creative as well, because you have to have some creativity behind these strategies in order to make an impression on the consumer. >> It's exciting and creepy at the same time. (Jeff laughing) I don't know if my wallet can handle that. But we'll see. But one of the things I was wondering, when you were talking about, for example, Amazon going, starting as this online mega store and now having brick and mortar stores, the acquisition of Whole Foods. I can't go in there and shop without being asked if I'm a Prime member. But what are some of the sort of foundational customer experience expectations that, because I would think personalization would be kind of a common foundation that whether I'm shopping online with whatever, I want whoever I'm buying from, especially if I have a history, I want them to know what I've bought before, maybe my average order value, to be able to kind of incentivize loyalty. But I probably want the same thing if I'm in a brick and mortar. Are you seeing some sort of key foundations that businesses, whether they do one, the other, or both, need to put in place that can span both? >> Absolutely. So I think it's a great point. I think personalization and the experience. Obviously we're hearing so much about experience in terms of e-commerce, but in brick and mortar stores in particular. But I think that the personalization piece is such an important one. But I also think that it's now getting to where we need to personalize more on the marketing for no matter what channel it is. So you need to bring that physical experience with the customer to your e-commerce efforts as well so that you can, for example, if you're going to email market to me, I want it to be relevant. I want to know that you have been paying attention to my shopping habits, and it's kind of a fine line with respect to data, but if you're going to be using my data, I want to make sure that it's useful to me and it saves me time. >> And it kind of goes back to a point Jeff and I have heard a number of times today, and that's validating me as a consumer that you understand that what I'm interested in that you have to offer, you understand it, it's important to both of us. Well Tina, I wish we had more time to keep talking with you, but we thank you so much for joining us on The Cube this afternoon and talking with us about some of the things that you're seeing, your experiences. And now I know the difference between an influencer, macro and micro, and why they can be so important to brands of any size. So thank you for your time. >> Thank you so much for having me. >> Our pleasure >> Thank you. >> For Jeff Frick, I'm Lisa Martin, you're watching us on The Cube live from Las Vegas at Magento Imagine 2019. Thanks for watching. (upbeat digital music)

[Music] when welcome to the special exclusive cube conversation here in Palo Alto in our studios I'm John for your host of the cube we have a very special guest speaking for the first time around some alleged alleged accusations and also innuendo around the Amazon Web Services Jedi contract and his firm c5 capital our guest as Andre Pienaar who's the founder of c5 capital Andre is here for the first time to talk about some of the hard conversations and questions surrounding his role his firm and the story from the BBC Andre thanks for a rat for meeting with me John great to have me thank you so you're at the center of a controversy and just for the folks who know the cube know we interviewed a lot of people I've interviewed you at Amazon web sources summit Teresa Carl's event and last year I met you and bought a rein the work you're doing there so I've met you a few times so I don't know your background but I want to drill into it because I was surprised to see the BBC story come out last week that was basically accusing you of many things including are you a spy are you infiltrating the US government through the Jedi contract through Amazon and knowing c-5 capital I saw no correlation when reading your article I was kind of disturbed but then I saw I said a follow-on stories it just didn't hang together so I wanted to press you on some questions and thanks for coming in and addressing them appreciate it John thanks for having me so first thing I want to ask you is you know it has you at the center this firm c5 capital that you the founder of at the center of what looks like to be the fight for the big ten billion dollar DoD contract which has been put out to multiple vendors so it's not a single source deal we've covered extensively on silicon angle calm and the cube and the government the government Accounting Office has ruled that there are six main benefits of going with a sole provider cloud this seems to be the war so Oracle IBM and others have been been involved we've been covering that so it kind of smells like something's going along with the story and I just didn't believe some of the things I read and I want to especially about you and see five capitals so I want to dig into what the first thing is it's c5 capital involved in the Jedi contract with AWS Sean not at all we have absolutely no involvement in the Jedi contract in any way we're not a bidder and we haven't done any lobbying as has been alleged by some of the people who've been making this allegation c5 has got no involvement in the general contract we're a venture capital firm with a British venture capital firm we have the privilege of investing here in the US as a foreign investor and our focus really is on the growth and the success of the startups that we are invested in so you have no business interest at all in the deal Department of Defense Jedi contract none whatsoever okay so to take a minute to explain c5 firm I read some of the stories there and some of the things were intricate structures of c5 cap made it sound like there was like a cloak-and-dagger situation I want to ask you some hard questions around that because there's a link to a Russian situation but before we get to there I want to ask you explain what is c5 capital your mission what are the things that you're doing c5 is a is a British venture capital firm and we are focused on investing into fast-growing technology companies in three areas cloud computing cyber security and artificial intelligence we have two parts our business c5 capital which invests into late stage companies so these are companies that typically already have revenue visibility and profitability but still very fast-growing and then we also have a very early stage startup platform that look at seed state investment and this we do through two accelerators to social impact accelerators one in Washington and one in Bahrain and it's just size of money involved just sort of order magnitude how many funds do you have how is it structure again just share some insight on that is it is there one firm is there multiple firms how is it knows it work well today the venture capital business has to be very transparent it's required by compliance we are a regulated regulated firm we are regulated in multiple markets we regulated here in the US the sec as a foreign investor in london by the financial conduct authority and in Luxembourg where Afonso based by the regulatory authorities there so in the venture capital industry today you can't afford to be an opaque business you have to be transparent at all levels and money in the Western world have become almost completely transparent so there's a very comprehensive and thorough due diligence when you onboard capital called know your client and the requirements standard requirement now is that whenever you're onboard capital from investor you're gonna take it right up to the level of the ultimate beneficial ownership so who actually owns this money and then every time you invest and you move your money around it gets diligence together different regulators and in terms of disclosure and the same applies often now with clients when our portfolio companies have important or significant clients they also want to know who's behind the products and the services they receive so often our boards our board directors and a shell team also get diligence by by important clients so explain this piece about the due diligence and the cross country vetting that goes on is I think it's important I want to get it out because how long has been operating how many deals have you done you mentioned foreign investor in the United States you're doing deals in the United States I know I've met one of your portfolio companies at an event iron iron on it iron net general Keith Alexander former head of the NSA you know get to just work with him without being vetted I guess so so how long a c5 capital been in business and where have you made your investments you mentioned cross jurisdiction across countries whatever it's called I don't know that so we've been and we've been in existence for about six years now our main focus is investing in Europe so we help European companies grow globally Europe historically has been underserved by venture capital we on an annual basis we invest about twenty seven billion dollars gets invested in venture capital in Europe as opposed to several multiples of that in the US so we have a very important part to play in Europe to how European enterprise software companies grow globally other important markets for us of course are Israel which is a major center of technology innovation and and the Middle East and then the u.s. the u.s. is still the world leader and venture capital both in terms of size but also in terms of the size of the market and of course the face and the excitement of the innovation here I want to get into me early career because again timing is key we're seeing this with you know whether it's a Supreme Court justice or anyone in their career their past comes back to haunt them it appears that has for you before we get there I want to ask you about you know when you look at the kind of scope of fraud and corruption that I've seen in just on the surface of government thing the government bit Beltway bandits in America is you got a nonprofit that feeds a for-profit and then what you know someone else runs a shell corporation so there's this intricate structures and that word was used which it kind of implies shell corporations a variety of backroom kind of smokey deals going on you mentioned transparency I do you have anything to hide John in in in our business we've got absolutely nothing to hide we have to be transparent we have to be open if you look at our social media profile you'll see we are communicating with the market almost on a daily basis every time we make an investment we press release that our website is very clear about who's involved enough who our partners are and the same applies to my own personal website and so in terms of the money movement around in terms of deploying investments we've seen Silicon Valley VCS move to China get their butts handed to them and then kind of adjust their scenes China money move around when you move money around you mentioned disclosure what do you mean there's filings to explain that piece it's just a little bit so every time we make an investment into a into a new portfolio company and we move the money to that market to make the investment we have to disclose who all the investors are who are involved in that investment so we have to disclose the ultimate beneficial ownership of all our limited partners to the law firms that are involved in the transactions and those law firms in turn have applications in terms of they own anti-money laundering laws in the local markets and this happens every time you move money around so I I think that the level of transparency in venture capital is just continue to rise exponentially and it's virtually impossible to conceal the identity of an investor this interesting this BBC article has a theme of national security risk kind of gloom and doom nuclear codes as mentioned it's like you want to scare someone you throw nuclear codes at it you want to get people's attention you play the Russian card I saw an article on the web that that said you know anything these days the me2 movement for governments just play the Russian card and you know instantly can discredit someone's kind of a desperation act so you got confident of interest in the government national security risk seems to be kind of a theme but before we get into the BBC news I noticed that there was a lot of conflated pieces kind of pulling together you know on one hand you know you're c5 you've done some things with your hat your past and then they just make basically associate that with running amazon's jedi project yes which i know is not to be true and you clarified that joan ends a problem joan so as a venture capital firm focused on investing in the space we have to work with all the Tier one cloud providers we are great believers in commercial cloud public cloud we believe that this is absolutely transformative not only for innovation but also for the way in which we do venture capital investment so we work with Amazon Web Services we work with Microsoft who work with Google and we believe that firstly that cloud has been made in America the first 15 companies in the world are all in cloud companies are all American and we believe that cloud like the internet and GPS are two great boons which the US economy the u.s. innovation economy have provided to the rest of the world cloud computing is reducing the cost of computing power with 50 percent every three years opening up innovation and opportunities for Entrepreneurship for health and well-being for the growth of economies on an unprecedented scale cloud computing is as important to the global economy today as the dollar ease as the world's reserve currency so we are great believers in cloud we great believers in American cloud computing companies as far as Amazon is concerned our relationship with Amazon Amazon is very Amazon Web Services is very clear and it's very defined we participate in a public Marcus program called AWS activate through which AWS supports hundreds of accelerators around the world with know-how with mentoring with teaching and with cloud credits to help entrepreneurs and startups grow their businesses and we have a very exciting focus for our two accelerators which is on in Washington we focus on peace technology we focus on taking entrepreneurs from conflict countries like Sudan Nigeria Pakistan to come to Washington to work on campus in the US government building the u.s. Institute for peace to scale these startups to learn all about cloud computing to learn how they can grow their businesses with cloud computing and to go back to their own countries to build peace and stability and prosperity their heaven so we're very proud of this mission in the Middle East and Bahrain our focus is on on female founders and female entrepreneurs we've got a program called nebula through which we empower female founders and female entrepreneurs interesting in the Middle East the statistics are the reverse from what we have in the West the majority of IT graduates in the Middle East are fimo and so there's a tremendous talent pool of of young dynamic female entrepreneurs coming out of not only the Gulf but the whole of the MENA region how about a relation with Amazon websites outside of their normal incubators they have incubators all over the place in the Amazon put out as Amazon Web Services put out a statement that said hey you know we have a lot of relationships with incubators this is normal course of business I know here in Silicon Valley at the startup loft this is this is their market filled market playbook so you fit into that is that correct as I'm I get that that's that's absolutely correct what we what is unusual about a table insists that this is a huge company that's focused on tiny startups a table started with startups it double uses first clients with startups and so here you have a huge business that has a deep understanding of startups and focus on startups and that's enormous the attractor for us and terrific for our accelerators department with them have you at c5 Capitol or individually have any formal or conversation with Amazon employees where you've had outside of giving feedback on products where you've tried to make change on their technology make change with their product management teams engineering you ever had at c5 capital whore have you personally been involved in influencing Amazon's product roadmap outside they're just giving normal feedback in the course of business that's way above my pay grade John firstly we don't have that kind of technical expertise in C 5 C 5 steam consists of a combination of entrepreneurs like myself people understand money really well and leaders we don't have that level of technical expertise and secondly that's what one our relationship with AWS is all about our relationship is entirely limited to the two startups and making sure that the two accelerators in making sure that the startups who pass through those accelerators succeed and make social impact and as a partner network component Amazon it's all put out there yes so in in a Barren accelerator we've we formed part of the Amazon partner network and the reason why we we did that was because we wanted to give some of the young people who come through the accelerator and know mastering cloud skills an opportunity to work on some real projects and real live projects so some of our young golf entrepreneurs female entrepreneurs have been working on building websites on Amazon Cloud and c5 capital has a relationship with former government officials you funded startups and cybersecurity that's kind of normal can you explain that positioning of it of how former government if it's whether it's US and abroad are involved in entrepreneurial activities and why that is may or may not be a problem certainly is a lot of kind of I would say smoke around this conversation around coffin of interest and you can you explain intelligence what that was it so I think the model for venture capital has been evolving and increasingly you get more and more differentiated models one of the key areas in which the venture capital model is changed is the fact that operating partners have become much more important to the success of venture capital firms so operating partners are people who bring real world experience to the investment experience of the investment team and in c-five we have the privilege of having a terrific group of operating partners people with both government and commercial backgrounds and they work very actively enough firm at all levels from our decision-making to the training and the mentoring of our team to helping us understand the way in which the world is exchanging to risk management to helping uh portfolio companies grow and Silicon Valley true with that to injuries in Horowitz two founders mr. friendly they bring in operating people that have entrepreneurial skills this is the new model understand order which has been a great source of inspiration to us for our model and and we built really believe this is a new model and it's really critical for the success of venture capitals to be going forward and the global impact is pretty significant one of things you mentioned I want to get your take on is as you operate a global transaction a lots happened a lot has to happen I mean we look at the ICO market on the cryptocurrency side its kind of you know plummeting obsoletes it's over now the mood security children's regulatory and transparency becomes critical you feel fully confident that you haven't you know from a regulatory standpoint c5 capital everything's out there absolutely risk management and regulated compliance and legal as the workstream have become absolutely critical for the success of venture capital firms and one of the reasons why this becomes so important John is because the venture capital world over the last few years have changed dramatically historically all the people involved in venture capital had very familiar names and came from very familiar places over the last few years with a diversification of global economic growth we've seen it's very significant amounts of money being invest invested in startups in China some people more money will invest in startups this year in China than in the US and we've seen countries like Saudi Arabia becoming a major source of venture capital funding some people say that as much as 70% of funding rounds this year in some way or another originated from the Gulf and we've seen places like Russia beginning to take an interest in technology innovation so the venture capital world is changing and for that reason compliance and regulation have become much more important but if Russians put 200 million dollars in face book and write out the check companies bright before that when the after 2008 we saw the rise of social networking I think global money certainly has something that I think a lot of people start getting used to and I want on trill down into that a little bit we talked about this BBC story that that hit and the the follow-on stories which actually didn't get picked up was mostly doing more regurgitation of the same story but one of the things that that they focus in on and the story was you and the trend now is your past is your enemy these days you know they try to drum up stuff in the past you've had a long career some of the stuff that they've been bringing in to paint you and the light that they did was from your past so I wanted to explore that with you I know you this is the first time you've talked about this and I appreciate you taking the time talk about your early career your background where you went to school because the way I'm reading this it sounds like you're a shady character I like like I interviewed on the queue but I didn't see that but you know I'm going to pressure here for that if you don't mind I'd like to to dig into that John thank you for that so I've had the I've had the privilege of a really amazingly interesting life and at the heart of at the heart of that great adventures been people and the privilege to work with really great people and good people I was born in South Africa I grew up in Africa went to school there qualified as a lawyer and then came to study in Britain when I studied international politics when I finished my studies international politics I got head hunted by a US consulting firm called crow which was a start of a 20 years career as an investigator first in crawl where I was a managing director in the London and then in building my own consulting firm which was called g3 and all of this led me to cybersecurity because as an investigator looking into organized crime looking into corruption looking into asset racing increasingly as the years went on everything became digital and I became very interested in finding evidence on electronic devices but starting my career and CRO was tremendous because Jules Kroll was a incredible mentor he could walk through an office and call everybody by their first name any Kroll office anywhere in the world and he always took a kindly interest in the people who work for him so it was a great school to go to and and I worked on some terrific cases including some very interesting Russian cases and Russian organized crime cases just this bag of Kroll was I've had a core competency in doing investigative work and also due diligence was that kind of focus yes although Kroll was the first company in the world to really have a strong digital practice led by Alan Brugler of New York Alan established the first computer forensics practice which was all focused about finding evidence on devices and everything I know about cyber security today started with me going to school with Alan Brolin crawl and they also focused on corruption uncovering this is from Wikipedia Kroll clients help Kroll helps clients improve operations by uncovering kickbacks fraud another form of corruptions other specialty areas is forensic accounting background screening drug testing electronic investigation data recovery SATA result Omar's McLennan in 2004 for 1.9 billion mark divested Kroll to another company I'll take credit risk management to diligence investigator in Falls Church Virginia over 150 countries call Kroll was the first CRO was the first household brand name in this field of of investigations and today's still is probably one of the strongest brand names and so it was a great firm to work in and was a great privilege to be part of it yeah high-end high-profile deals were there how many employees were in Kroll cuz I'd imagine that the alumni that that came out of Kroll probably have found places in other jobs similar to yes do an investigative work like you know they out them all over the world many many alumni from Kroll and many of them doing really well and doing great work ok great so now the next question want to ask you is when you in Kroll the South Africa connection came up so I got to ask you it says business side that you're a former South African spy are you a former South African spy no John I've never worked for any government agency and in developing my career my my whole focus has been on investigations out of the Kroll London office I did have the opportunity to work in South Africa out of the Kroll London office and this was really a seminal moment in my career when I went to South Africa on a case for a major international credit-card company immediately after the end of apartheid when democracy started to look into the scale and extent of credit card fraud at the request of this guy what year was there - how old were you this was in 1995 1996 I was 25 26 years old and one of the things which this credit card company asked me to do was to assess what was the capability of the new democratic government in South Africa under Nelson Mandela to deal with crime and so I had the privilege of meeting mr. Mandela as the president to discuss this issue with him and it was an extraordinary man the country's history because there was such an openness and a willingness to to address issues of this nature and to grapple with them so he was released from prison at that time I remember those days and he became president that's why he called you and you met with him face to face of a business conversation around working on what the future democracy is and trying to look at from a corruption standpoint or just kind of in general was that what was that conversation can you share so so that so the meeting involved President Mandela and and the relevant cabinet ministers the relevant secretaries and his cabinet - responsible for for these issues and the focus of our conversation really started with well how do you deal with credit card fraud and how do you deal with large-scale fraud that could be driven by organized crime and at the time this was an issue of great concern to the president because there was bombing in Kate of a Planet Hollywood cafe where a number of people got very severely injured and the president believed that this could have been the result of a protection racket in Cape Town and so he wanted to do something about it he was incredibly proactive and forward-leaning and in an extraordinary way he ended the conversation by by asking where the Kroll can help him and so he commissioned Kroll to build the capacity of all the black officers that came out of the ANC and have gone into key government positions on how to manage organized crime investigations it was the challenge at that time honestly I can imagine apartheid I remember you know I was just at a college that's not properly around the same age as you it was a dynamic time to say the least was his issue around lack of training old school techniques because you know that was right down post-cold-war and then did what were the concerns not enough people was it just out of control was it a corrupt I mean just I mean what was the core issue that Nelson wanted to hire Kroll and you could work his core issue was he wanted to ensure the stability of South Africa's democracy that was his core focus and he wanted to make South Africa an attractive place where international companies felt comfortable and confident in investing and that was his focus and he felt that at that time because so many of the key people in the ANC only had training in a cold war context that there wasn't a Nessy skill set to do complex financial or more modern investigations and it was very much focused he was always the innovator he was very much focused on bringing the best practices and the best investigative techniques to the country he was I felt in such a hurry that he doesn't want to do this by going to other governments and asking for the help he wanted to Commission it himself and so he gave he gave a crawl with me as the project leader a contract to do this and my namesake Francois Pienaar has become very well known because of the film Invictus and he's been he had the benefit of Mandela as a mentor and as a supporter and that changed his career the same thing happened to me so what did he actually asked you to do was it to train build a force because there's this talk that and was a despite corruption specifically it was it more both corruption and or stability because they kind of go hand in hand policy and it's a very close link between corruption and instability and and president Ellis instructions were very clear to Crowley said go out and find me the best people in the world the most experienced people in the world who can come to South Africa and train my people how to fight organized crime so I went out and I found some of the best people from the CIA from mi6 the British intelligence service from the Drug Enforcement Agency here in the US form officers from the Federal Bureau of Investigation's detectives from Scotland Yard prosecutors from the US Justice Department and all of them for a number of years traveled to South Africa to train black officers who were newly appointed in key roles in how to combat organized crime and this was you acting as an employee he had crow there's not some operative this is he this was me very much acting as a as an executive and crow I was the project leader Kroll was very well structured and organized and I reported to the chief executive officer in the London office nor Garret who was the former head of the CIA's Near East Division and Nelson Mandela was intimately involved in this with you at Krall President Mandela was the ultimate support of this project and he then designated several ministers to work on it and also senior officials in the stories that had been put out this past week they talked about this to try to make it sound like you're involved on two sides of the equation they bring up scorpions was this the scorpions project that they referred to so it was the scorpions scorpion sounds so dangerous and a movie well there's a movie a movie does feature this so at the end of the training project President Mandela and deputy president Thabo Mbeki who subsequently succeeded him as president put together a ministerial committee to look at what should they do with the capacity that's been built with this investment that they made because for a period of about three years we had all the leading people the most experienced people that have come out of some of the best law enforcement agencies and some of the best intelligence services come and trained in South Africa and this was quite this was quite something John because many of the senior officers in the ANC came from a background where they were trained by the opponents of the people came to treat trained them so so many of them were trained by the Stasi in East Germany some of them were trained by the Russian KGB some of them were trained by the Cubans so we not only had to train them we also had to win their trust and when we started this that's a diverse set of potential dogma and or just habits a theory modernised if you will right is that what the there was there was a question of of learning new skills and there was a question about also about learning management capabilities there was also question of learning the importance of the media for when you do difficult and complex investigations there was a question about using digital resources but there was also fundamentally a question of just building trust and when we started this program none of the black officers wanted to be photographed with all these foreign trainers who were senior foreign intelligence officers when we finished that everyone wanted to be in the photograph and so this was a great South African success story but the President and the deputy president then reflected on what to do with his capacity and they appointed the ministerial task force to do this and we were asked to make recommendations to this Minister ministerial task force and one of the things which we did was we showed them a movie because you referenced the movie and the movie we showed them was the untouchables with Kevin Costner and Sean Connery which is still one of my favorite and and greatest movies and the story The Untouchables is about police corruption in Chicago and how in the Treasury Department a man called Eliot Ness put together a group of officers from which he selected from different places with clean hands to go after corruption during the Probie and this really captured the president's imagination and so he said that's what he want and Ella yeah okay so he said della one of the untouchables he wanted Eliot Ness exactly Al Capone's out there and and how many people were in that goodness so we asked that we we established the government then established decided to establish and this was passed as a law through Parliament the director of special operations the DSO which colloquy became known as the scorpions and it had a scorpion as a symbol for this unit and this became a standalone anti-corruption unit and the brilliant thing about it John was that the first intake of scorpion officers were all young black graduates many of them law graduates and at the time Janet Reno was the US Attorney General played a very crucial role she allowed half of the first intake of young cratchits to go to Quantico and to do the full FBI course in Quantico and this was the first group of foreign students who've ever been admitted to Quantico to do the full Quantico were you involved at what score's at that time yes sir and so you worked with President Mandela yes the set of the scorpions is untouchable skiing for the first time as a new democracy is emerging the landscape is certainly changing there's a transformation happening we all know the history laugh you don't watch Invictus probably great movie to do that you then worked with the Attorney General United States to cross-pollinate the folks in South Africa black officers law degrees Samar's fresh yes this unit with Quantico yes in the United States I had the privilege of attending the the graduation ceremony of the first of South African officers that completed the Quantico course and representing crow they on the day you had us relationships at that time to crawl across pollen I had the privilege of working with some of the best law enforcement officers and best intelligence officers that has come out of the u.s. services and they've been tremendous mentors in my career they've really shaped my thinking they've shaped my values and they've they've shaved my character so you're still under 30 at this time so give us a is that where this where are we in time now just about a 30 so you know around the nine late nineties still 90s yeah so client-server technologies there okay so also the story references Leonard McCarthy and these spy tapes what is this spy tape saga about it says you had a conversation with McCarthy me I'm thinking that a phone tap explain that spy tape saga what does it mean who's Lennon McCarthy explain yourself so so so Leonard McCarthy it's a US citizen today he served two terms as the vice president for institutional integrity at the World Bank which is the world's most important anti-corruption official he started his career as a prosecutor in South Africa many years ago and then became the head of the economic crimes division in the South African Justice Department and eventually became the head of the scorpions and many years after I've left Kroll and were no longer involved in in the work of the scorpions he texted me one evening expressing a concern and an anxiety that I had about the safety of his family and I replied to him with two text messages one was a Bible verse and the other one was a Latin saying and my advice name was follow the rule of law and put the safety of your family first and that was the advice I gave him so this is how I imagined the year I think of it the internet was just there this was him this was roundabout 2000 December 2007 okay so there was I phone just hit so text messaging Nokia phones all those big yeah probably more text message there so you sitting anywhere in London you get a text message from your friend yep later this past late tonight asking for help and advice and I gave him the best advice I can he unfortunately was being wiretapped and those wiretaps were subsequently published and became the subject of much controversy they've now been scrutinized by South Africa's highest court and the court has decided that those wiretaps are of no impact and of importance in the scheme of judicial decision-making and our unknown provenance and on and on unknown reliability they threw it out basically yeah they're basically that's the president he had some scandals priors and corruption but back to the tapes you the only involvement on the spy tapes was friend sending you a text message that says hey I'm running a corruption you know I'm afraid for my life my family what do I do and you give some advice general advice and that's it as there was there any more interactions with us no that's it that's it okay so you weren't like yeah working with it hey here's what we get strategy there was nothing that going on no other interactions just a friendly advice and that's what they put you I gave him my I gave him my best advice when you when you work in when you work as an investigator very much as and it's very similar in venture capital it's all about relationships and you want to preserve relationships for the long term and you develop deep royalties to its people particularly people with whom you've been through difficult situations as I have been with Leonard much earlier on when I was still involved in Kroll and giving advice to South African government on issues related to the scorpius so that that has a lot of holes and I did think that was kind of weird they actually can produce the actual tax I couldn't find that the spy tapes so there's a spy tape scandal out there your name is on out on one little transaction globbed on to you I mean how do you feel about that I mean you must've been pretty pissed when you saw that when you do it when when you do when you do investigative work you see really see everything and all kinds of things and the bigger the issues that you deal with the more frequently you see things that other people might find unusual I are you doing any work right now with c5 at South Africa and none whatsoever so I've I retired from my investigative Korea in 2014 I did terrific 20 years as an investigator during my time as investigator I came to understood the importance of digital and cyber and so at the end of it I saw an opportunity to serve a sector that historically have been underserved with capital which is cyber security and of course there are two areas very closely related to cyber security artificial intelligence and cloud and that's why I created c5 after I sold my investigator firm with five other families who equally believed in the importance of investing private capital to make a difference invest in private capital to help bring about innovation that can bring stability to the digital world and that's the mission of c-5 before I get to the heart news I want to drill in on the BBC stories I think that's really the focal point of you know why we're talking just you know from my standpoint I remember living as a young person in that time breaking into the business you know my 20s and 30s you had Live Aid in 1985 and you had 1995 the internet happened there was so much going on between those that decade 85 to 95 you were there I was an American so I didn't really have a lot exposure I did some work for IBM and Europe in 1980 says it's co-op student but you know I had some peak in the international world it must been pretty dynamic the cross-pollination the melting pot of countries you know the Berlin Wall goes down you had the cold war's ending you had apartheid a lot of things were going on around you yes so in that dynamic because if if the standard is you had links to someone you know talked about why how important it was that this melting pot and how it affected your relationships and how it looks now looking back because now you can almost tie anything to anything yes so I think the 90s was one of the most exciting periods of time because you had the birth of the internet and I started working on Internet related issues yet 20 million users today we have three and a half billion users and ten billion devices unthinkable at the time but in the wake of the internet also came a lot of changes as you say the Berlin Wall came down democracy in South Africa the Oslo peace process in the time that I worked in Kroll some of them made most important and damaging civil wars in Africa came to an end including the great war in the Congo peace came to Sudan and Angola the Ivory Coast so a lot of things happening and if you have a if you had a an international career at that time when globalization was accelerating you got to no a lot of people in different markets and both in crow and in my consulting business a key part of what it but we did was to keep us and Western corporations that were investing in emerging markets safe your credibility has been called in questions with this article and when I get to in a second what I want to ask you straight up is it possible to survive in the international theatre to the level that you're surviving if what they say is true if you if you're out scamming people or you're a bad actor pretty much over the the time as things get more transparent it's hard to survive right I mean talk about that dynamic because I just find it hard to believe that to be successful the way you are it's not a johnny-come-lately firms been multiple years operating vetted by the US government are people getting away in the shadows is it is is it hard because I almost imagine those are a lot of arbitrage I imagine ton of arbitrage that you that are happening there how hard or how easy it is to survive to be that shady and corrupt in this new era because with with with investigated with with intelligence communities with some terrific if you follow the money now Bitcoin that's a whole nother story but that's more today but to survive the eighties and nineties and to be where you are and what they're alleging I just what's your thoughts well to be able to attract capital and investors you have to have very high standards of governance and compliance because ultimately that's what investors are looking for and what investors will diligence when they make an investment with you so to carry the confidence of investors good standards of governance and compliance are of critical importance and raising venture capital and Europe is tough it's not like the US babe there's an abundance of venture capital available it's very hard Europe is under served by capital the venture capital invested in the US market is multiple of what we invest in Europe so you need to be even more focused on governance and compliance in Europe than you would be perhaps on other markets I think the second important point with Gmail John is that technology is brought about a lot of transparency and this is a major area of focus for our piece tech accelerator where we have startups who help to bring transparency to markets which previously did not have transparency for example one of the startups that came through our accelerator has brought complete transparency to the supply chain for subsistence farmers in Africa all the way to to the to the shelf of Walmart or a big grocery retailer in in the US or Europe and so I think technology is bringing a lot more more transparency we also have a global anti-corruption Innovation Challenge called shield in the cloud where we try and find and recognize the most innovative corporations governments and countries in the space so let's talk about the BBC story that hit 12 it says is a US military cloud the DoD Jedi contractor that's coming to award the eleventh hour safe from Russia fears over sensitive data so if this essentially the headline that's bolded says a technology company bidding for a Pentagon contract that's Amazon Web Services to store sensitive data has close partnerships with a firm linked to a sanctioned Russian oligarch the BBC has learned goes on to essentially put fear and tries to hang a story that says the national security of America is at risk because of c5u that's what we're talking about right now so so what's your take on this story I mean did you wake up and get an email said hey check out the BBC you're featured in and they're alleging that you have links to Russia and Amazon what Jon first I have to go I first have to do a disclosure I've worked for the BBC as an investigator when I was in Kroll and in fact I let the litigation support for the BBC in the biggest libel claim in British history which was post 9/11 when the BBC did a broadcast mistakenly accusing a mining company in Africa of laundering money for al-qaeda and so I represented the BBC in this case I was the manager hired you they hired me to delete this case for them and I'm I helped the BBC to reduce a libel claim of 25 million dollars to $750,000 so I'm very familiar with the BBC its integrity its standards and how it does things and I've always held the BBC in the highest regard and believed that the BBC makes a very important contribution to make people better informed about the world so when I heard about the story I was very disappointed because it seemed to me that the BBC have compromised the independence and the independence of the editorial control in broadcasting the story the reason why I say that is because the principal commentator in this story as a gentleman called John Wheeler who's familiar to me as a someone who's been trolling our firm on internet for the last year making all sorts of allegations the BBC did not disclose that mr. Weiler is a former Oracle executive the company that's protesting the Jedi bidding contract and secondly that he runs a lobbying firm with paid clients and that he himself often bid for government contracts in the US government context you're saying that John Wheeler who's sourced in the story has a quote expert and I did check him out I did look at what he was doing I checked out his Twitter he seems to be trying to socialise a story heavily first he needed eyes on LinkedIn he seems to be a consultant firm like a Beltway yes he runs a he runs a phone called in interoperability Clearing House and a related firm called the IT acquisition Advisory Council and these two organizations work very closely together the interoperability Clearing House or IC H is a consulting business where mr. Weiler acts for paying clients including competitors for this bidding contract and none of this was disclosed by the BBC in their program the second part of this program that I found very disappointing was the fact that the BBC in focusing on the Russian technology parks cocuwa did not disclose the list of skok of our partners that are a matter of public record on the Internet if you look at this list very closely you'll see c5 is not on there neither Amazon Web Services but the list of companies that are on there are very familiar names many of them competitors in this bidding process who acted as founding partners of skok about Oracle for example as recently as the 28th of November hosted what was described as the largest cloud computing conference in Russia's history at Skolkovo this is the this is the place which the BBC described as this notorious den of spies and at this event which Oracle hosted they had the Russian presidential administration on a big screen as one of their clients in Russia so some Oracle is doing business in Russia they have like legit real links to Russia well things you're saying if they suddenly have very close links with Skolkovo and so having a great many other Khayyam is there IBM Accenture cisco say Microsoft is saying Oracle is there so Skolkovo has a has a very distinguished roster of partners and if the BBC was fair and even-handed they would have disclosed us and they would have disclosed the fact that neither c5 nor Amazon feature as Corcovado you feel that the BBC has been duped the BBC clearly has been duped the program that they broadcasted is really a parlor game of six degrees of separation which they try to spun into a national security crisis all right so let's tell us John while ago you're saying John Wyler who's quoted in the story as an expert and by the way I read in the story my favorite line that I wanted to ask you on was there seems to be questions being raised but the question is being raised or referring to him so are you saying that he is not an expert but a plant for the story what's what's his role he's saying he works for Oracle or you think do you think he's being paid by Oracle like I can't comment on mr. Wireless motivation what strikes me is the fact that is a former Oracle executive what's striking is that he clearly on his website for the IC H identifies several competitors for the Jedi business clients and that all of this should have been disclosed by the BBC rather than to try and characterize and portray him as an independent expert on this story well AWS put out a press release or a blog post essentially hum this you know you guys had won it we're very clear and this I know it goes to the top because that's how Amazon works nothing goes out until it goes to the top which is Andy chassis and the senior people over there it says here's the relationship with c5 and ATS what school you use are the same page there but also they hinted the old guard manipulation distant I don't think they use the word disinformation campaign they kind of insinuate it and that's what I'm looking into I want to ask you are you part are you a victim of a disinformation campaign do you believe that you're not a victim being targeted with c5 as part of a disinformation campaign put on by a competitor to AWS I think what we've seen over the course of this last here is an enormous amount of disinformation around this contract and around this bidding process and they've a lot of the information that has been disseminated has not only not been factual but in some cases have been patently malicious well I have been covering Amazon for many many years this guy Tom Wyler is in seems to be circulating multiple reports invested in preparing for this interview I checked Vanity Fair he's quoted in Vanity Fair he's quoted in the BBC story and there's no real or original reporting other than those two there's some business side our article which is just regurgitating the Business Insider I mean the BBC story and a few other kind of blog stories but no real original yes no content don't so in every story that that's been written on this subject and as you say most serious publication have thrown this thrown these allegations out but in the in those few instances where they've managed to to publish these allegations and to leverage other people's credibility to their advantage and leverage other people's credibility for their competitive advantage John Wheeler has been the most important and prominent source of the allegations someone who clearly has vested commercial interests someone who clearly works for competitors as disclosed on his own website and none of this has ever been surfaced or addressed I have multiple sources have confirmed to me that there's a dossier that has been created and paid for by a firm or collection of firms to discredit AWS I've seen some of the summary documents of that and that is being peddled around to journalists we have not been approached yet I'm not sure they will because we actually know the cloud what cloud computing is so I'm sure we could debunk it by just looking at it and what they were putting fors was interesting is this an eleventh-hour a desperation attempt because I have the Geo a report here that was issued under Oracle's change it says there are six conditions why we're looking at one sole cloud although it's not a it's a multiple bid it's not an exclusive to amazon but so there's reasons why and they list six service levels highly specialized check more favorable terms and conditions with a single award expected cause of administration of multiple contracts outweighs the benefits of multiple awards the projected orders are so intricately related that only a single contractor can reasonably be perform the work meaning that Amazon has the only cloud that can do that work now I've reported on the cube and it's looking angle that it's true there's things that other clouds just don't have anyone has private they have the secret the secret clouds the total estimated value of the contract is less than the simplified acquisition threshold or multiple awards would not be in the best interest this is from them this is a government report so it seems like there's a conspiracy against Amazon where you are upon and in in this game collect you feel that collateral damage song do you do you believe that to be true collateral damage okay well okay so now the the John Wheeler guys so investigate you've been an investigator so you mean you're not you know you're not a retired into this a retired investigator you're retired investigated worked on things with Nelson Mandela Kroll Janet Reno Attorney General you've vetted by the United States government you have credibility you have relationships with people who have have top-secret clearance all kinds of stuff but I mean do you have where people have top-secret clearance or or former people who had done well we have we have the privilege of of working with a very distinguished group of senior national security leaders as operating partisan c5 and many of them have retained their clearances and have been only been able to do so because c5 had to pass through a very deep vetting process so for you to be smeared like this you've been in an investigative has you work at a lot of people this is pretty obvious to you this is like a oh is it like a deep state conspiracy you feel it's one vendor - what is your take and what does collateral damage mean to you well I recently spoke at the mahkum conference on a session on digital warfare and one of the key points I made there was that there are two things that are absolutely critical for business leaders and technology leaders at this point in time one we have to clearly say that our countries are worth defending we can't walk away from our countries because the innovation that we are able to build and scale we're only able to do because we live in democracies and then free societies that are governed by the rule of law the second thing that I think is absolutely crucial for business leaders in the technology community is to accept that there must be a point where national interest overrides competition it must be a point where we say the benefit and the growth and the success of our country is more important to us than making commercial profits and therefore there's a reason for us either to cooperate or to cease competition or to compete in a different way what might takes a little bit more simple than that's a good explanation is I find these smear campaigns and fake news and I was just talking with Kara Swisher on Twitter just pinging back and forth you know either journalists are chasing Twitter and not really doing the original courting or they're being fed stories if this is truly a smear campaign as being fed by a paid dossier then that hurts people when families and that puts corporate interests over the right thing so I think I a personal issue with that that's fake news that's just disinformation but it's also putting corporate inches over over families and people so I just find that to be kind of really weird when you say collateral damage earlier what did you mean by that just part of the campaign you personally what's what's your view okay I think competition which is not focused on on performance and on innovation and on price points that's competition that's hugely destructive its destructive to the fabric of innovation its destructive of course to the reputation of the people who fall in the line of sight of this kind of competition but it's also hugely destructive to national interest Andrae one of the key stories here with the BBC which has holes in it is that the Amazon link which we just talked about but there's one that they bring up that seems to be core in all this and just the connections to Russia can you talk about your career over the career from whether you when you were younger to now your relationship with Russia why is this Russian angle seems to be why they bring into the Russia angle into it they seem to say that c-5 Cable has connections they call deep links personal links into Russia so to see what that so c5 is a venture capital firm have no links to Russia c5 has had one individual who is originally of Russian origin but it's been a longtime Swiss resident and you national as a co investor into a enterprise software company we invested in in 2015 in Europe we've since sold that company but this individual Vladimir Kuznetsov who's became the focus of the BBC's story was a co investor with us and the way in which we structure our investment structures is that everything is transparent so the investment vehicle for this investment was a London registered company which was on the records of Companies House not an offshore entity and when Vladimir came into this company as a co investor for compliance and regulatory purposes we asked him to make his investment through this vehicle which we controlled and which was subject to our compliance standards and completely transparent and in this way he made this investment now when we take on both investors and Co investors we do that subject to very extensive due diligence and we have a very robust and rigorous due diligence regime which in which our operating partners who are leaders of great experience play an important role in which we use outside due diligence firms to augment our own judgment and to make sure we have all the facts and finally we also compare notes with other financial institutions and peers and having done that with Vladimir Kuznetsov when he made this one investment with us we reached the conclusion that he was acting in his own right as an independent angel investor that his left renova many years ago as a career executive and that he was completely acceptable as an investor so that you think that the BBC is making an inaccurate Association the way they describe your relationship with Russia absolutely the the whole this whole issue of the provenance of capital has become of growing importance to the venture capital industry as you and I discussed earlier with many more different sources of capital coming out of places like China like Russia Saudi Arabia other parts of the world and therefore going back again to you the earlier point we discussed compliance and due diligence our critical success factors and we have every confidence in due diligence conclusions that we reached about vladimir quits net source co-investment with us in 2015 so I did some digging on c5 razor bidco this was the the portion of the company in reference to the article I need to get your your take on this and they want to get you on the record on this because it's you mentioned I've been a law above board with all the compliance no offshore entities this is a personal investment that he made Co investment into an entity you guys set up for the transparency and compliance is that true that's correct no side didn't see didn't discover this would my my children could have found this this this company was in a transparent way on the records in Companies House and and Vladimir's role and investment in it was completely on the on the public record all of this was subject to financial conduct authority regulation and anti money laundering and no your client standards and compliance so there was no great big discovery this was all transparent all out in the open and we felt very confident in our due diligence findings and so you feel very confident Oh issue there at all special purpose none whatsoever is it this is classic this is international finance yes sir so in the venture capital industry creating a special purpose vehicle for a particular investment is a standard practice in c-five we focus on structuring those special-purpose vehicles in the most transparent way possible and that was his money from probably from Russia and you co invested into this for this purpose of doing these kinds of deals with Russia well we just right this is kind of the purpose of that no no no this so in 2015 we invested into a European enterprise software company that's a strategic partner of Microsoft in Scandinavian country and we invested in amount of 16 million pounds about at the time just more than 20 million dollars and subsequent in August of that year that Amir Kuznetsov having retired for nova and some time ago in his own right as an angel investor came in as a minority invest alongside us into this investment but we wanted to be sure that his investment was on our control and subject to our compliance standards so we requested him to make his investment through our special purpose vehicle c5 raised a bit co this investment has since been realized it's been a great success and this business is going on to do great things and serve great clients it c5 taking russian money no see if I was not taking Russian money since since the onset of sanctions onboarding Russian money is just impossible sanctions have introduced complexity and have introduced regulatory risk related to Russian capital and so we've taken a decision that we will not and we can't onboard Russian capital and sanctions have also impacted my investigative career sanctions have also completely changed because what the US have done very effectively is to make sanctions a truly global regime and in which ever country are based it doesn't really matter you have to comply with US sanctions this is not optional for anybody on any sanctions regime including the most recent sanctions on Iran so if there are sanctions in place you can't touch it have you ever managed Russian oligarchs money or interests at any time I've never managed a Russian oligarchs money at any point in time I served for a period of a year honest on the board of a South African mining company in which Renova is a minority invest alongside an Australian company called South 32 and the reason why I did this was because of my support for African entrepreneurship this was one of the first black owned mining companies in South Africa that was established with a British investment in 2004 this business have just grown to be a tremendous success and so for a period of a year I offered to help them on the board and to support them as they as they looked at how they can grow and scale the business I have a couple more questions Gabe so I don't know if you wanna take a break you want to keep let's take a break okay let's take a quick break do a quick break I think that's great that's the meat of it great job by the way fantastic lady here thanks for answering those questions the next section I want to do is compliment

[Music] [Music] [Music] [Laughter] [Laughter] [Laughter] [Laughter] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] you you [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] wake up feeling blessed peace you warned that Russia ain't afraid to show it I'll expose it if I dressed up riding in that Chester roasted nigga catch you slippin on myself rocks on I messed up like yes sir [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] our program [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] you are not welcome to Red Hat summit 2018 2018 [Music] [Music] [Music] [Laughter] [Music] Wow that is truly the coolest introduction I've ever had thank you Wow I don't think I feel cool enough to follow an interaction like that Wow well welcome to the Red Hat summit this is our 14th annual event and I have to say looking out over this audience Wow it's great to see so many people here joining us this is by far our largest summit to date not only did we blow through the numbers we've had in the past we blew through our own expectations this year so I know we have a pretty packed house and I know people are still coming in so it's great to see so many people here it's great to see so many familiar faces when I had a chance to walk around earlier it's great to see so many new people here joining us for the first time I think the record attendance is an indication that more and more enterprises around the world are seeing the power of open source to help them with their challenges that they're facing due to the digital transformation that all of enterprises around the world are going through the theme for the summit this year is ideas worth exploring and we intentionally chose that because as much as we are all going through this digital disruption and the challenges associated with it one thing I think is becoming clear no one person and certainly no one company has the answers to these challenges right this isn't a problem where you can go buy a solution this is a set of capabilities that we all need to build it's a set of cultural changes that we all need to go through and that's going to require the best ideas coming from so many different places so we're not here saying we have the answers we're trying to convene the conversation right we want to serve as a catalyst bringing great minds together to share ideas so we all walk out of here at the end of the week a little wiser than when we first came here we do have an amazing agenda for you we have over 7,000 attendees we may be pushing 8,000 by the time we got through this morning we have 36 keynote speakers and we have a hundred and twenty-five breakout sessions and have to throw in one plug scheduling 325 breakout sessions is actually pretty difficult and so we used the Red Hat business optimizer which is an AI constraint solver that's new in the Red Hat decision manager to help us plan the summit because we have individuals who have a clustered set of interests and we want to make sure that when we schedule two breakout sessions we do it in a way that we don't have overlapping sessions that are really important to the same individual so we tried to use this tool and what we understand about people's interest in history of what they wanted to do to try to make sure that we spaced out different times for things of similar interests for similar people as well as for people who stood in the back of breakouts before and I know I've done that too we've also used it to try to optimize room size so hopefully we will do our best to make sure that we've appropriately sized the spaces for those as well so it's really a phenomenal tool and I know it's helped us a lot this year in addition to the 325 breakouts we have a lot of our customers on stage during the main sessions and so you'll see demos you'll hear from partners you'll hear stories from so many of our customers not on our point of view of how to use these technologies but their point of views of how they actually are using these technologies to solve their problems and you'll hear over and over again from those keynotes that it's not just about the technology it's about how people are changing how people are working to innovate to solve those problems and while we're on the subject of people I'd like to take a moment to recognize the Red Hat certified professional of the year this is known award we do every year I love this award because it truly recognizes an individual for outstanding innovation for outstanding ideas for truly standing out in how they're able to help their organization with Red Hat technologies Red Hat certifications help system administrators application developers IT architects to further their careers and help their organizations by being able to advance their skills and knowledge of Red Hat products and this year's winner really truly is a great example about how their curiosity is helped push the limits of what's possible with technology let's hear a little more about this year's winner when I was studying at the University I had computer science as one of my subjects and that's what created the passion from the very beginning they were quite a few institutions around my University who were offering Red Hat Enterprise Linux as a course and a certification paths through to become an administrator Red Hat Learning subscription has offered me a lot more than any other trainings that have done so far that gave me exposure to so many products under red hair technologies that I wasn't even aware of I started to think about the better ways of how these learnings can be put into the real life use cases and we started off with a discussion with my manager saying I have to try this product and I really want to see how it really fits in our environment and that product was Red Hat virtualization we went from deploying rave and then OpenStack and then the open shift environment we wanted to overcome some of the things that we saw as challenges to the speed and rapidity of release and code etc so it made perfect sense and we were able to do it in a really short space of time so you know we truly did use it as an Innovation Lab I think idea is everything ideas can change the way you see things an Innovation Lab was such an idea that popped into my mind one fine day and it has transformed the way we think as a team and it's given that playpen to pretty much everyone to go and test their things investigate evaluate do whatever they like in a non-critical non production environment I recruited Neha almost 10 years ago now I could see there was a spark a potential with it and you know she had a real Drive a real passion and you know here we are nearly ten years later I'm Neha Sandow I am a Red Hat certified engineer all right well everyone please walk into the states to the stage Neha [Music] [Applause] congratulations thank you [Applause] I think that - well welcome to the red has some of this is your first summit yes it is thanks so much well fantastic sure well it's great to have you here I hope you have a chance to engage and share some of your ideas and enjoy the week thank you thank you congratulations [Applause] neha mentioned that she first got interest in open source at university and it made me think red hats recently started our Red Hat Academy program that looks to programmatically infuse Red Hat technologies in universities around the world it's exploded in a way we had no idea it's grown just incredibly rapidly which i think shows the interest that there really is an open source and working in an open way at university so it's really a phenomenal program I'm also excited to announce that we're launching our newest open source story this year at Summit it's called the science of collective discovery and it looks at what happens when communities use open hardware to monitor the environment around them and really how they can make impactful change based on that technologies the rural premier that will be at 5:15 on Wednesday at McMaster Oni West and so please join us for a drink and we'll also have a number of the experts featured in that and you can have a conversation with them as well so with that let's officially start the show please welcome red hat president of products and technology Paul Cormier [Music] Wow morning you know I say it every year I'm gonna say it again I know I repeat myself it's just amazing we are so proud here to be here today too while you all week on how far we've come with opens with open source and with the products that we that we provide at Red Hat so so welcome and I hope the pride shows through so you know I told you Seven Summits ago on this stage that the future would be open and here we are just seven years later this is the 14th summit but just seven years later after that and much has happened and I think you'll see today and this week that that prediction that the world would be open was a pretty safe predict prediction but I want to take you just back a little bit to see how we started here and it's not just how Red Hat started here this is an open source in Linux based computing is now in an industry norm and I think that's what you'll you'll see in here this week you know we talked back then seven years ago when we put on our prediction about the UNIX error and how Hardware innovation with x86 was it was really the first step in a new era of open innovation you know companies like Sun Deck IBM and HP they really changed the world the computing industry with their UNIX models it was that was really the rise of computing but I think what we we really saw then was that single company innovation could only scale so far could really get so far with that these companies were very very innovative but they coupled hardware innovation with software innovation and as one company they could only solve so many problems and even which comp which even complicated things more they could only hire so many people in each of their companies Intel came on the scene back then as the new independent hardware player and you know that was really the beginning of the drive for horizontal computing power and computing this opened up a brand new vehicle for hardware innovation a new hardware ecosystem was built around this around this common hardware base shortly after that Stallman and leanness they had a vision of his of an open model that was created and they created Linux but it was built around Intel this was really the beginning of having a software based platform that could also drive innovation this kind of was the beginning of the changing of the world here that system-level innovation now having a hardware platform that was ubiquitous and a software platform that was open and ubiquitous it really changed this system level innovation and that continues to thrive today it was only possible because it was open this could not have happened in a closed environment it allowed the best ideas from anywhere from all over to come in in win only because it was the best idea that's what drove the rate of innovation at the pace you're seeing today and it which has never been seen before we at Red Hat we saw the need to bring this innovation to solve real-world problems in the enterprise and I think that's going to be the theme of the show today you're going to see us with our customers and partners talking about and showing you some of those real-world problems that we are sought solving with this open innovation we created rel back then for this for the enterprise it started it's it it wasn't successful because it's scaled it was secure and it was enterprise ready it once again changed the industry but this time through open innovation this gave the hardware ecosystem a software platform this open software platform gave the hardware ecosystem a software platform to build around it Unleashed them the hardware side to compete and thrive it enabled innovation from the OEMs new players building cheaper faster servers even new architectures from armed to power sprung up with this change we have seen an incredible amount of hardware innovation over the last 15 years that same innovation happened on the software side we saw powerful implementations of bare metal Linux distributions out in the market in fact at one point there were 300 there are over 300 distributions out in the market on the foundation of Linux powerful open-source equivalents were even developed in every area of Technology databases middleware messaging containers anything you could imagine innovation just exploded around the Linux platform in innovation it's at the core also drove virtualization both Linux and virtualization led to another area of innovation which you're hearing a lot about now public cloud innovation this innovation started to proceed at a rate that we had never seen before we had never experienced this in the past in this unprecedented speed of innovation and software was now possible because you didn't need a chip foundry in order to innovate you just needed great ideas in the open platform that was out there customers seeing this innovation in the public cloud sparked it sparked their desire to build their own linux based cloud platforms and customers are now are now bringing that cloud efficiency on-premise in their own data centers public clouds demonstrated so much efficiency the data centers and architects wanted to take advantage of it off premise on premise I'm sorry within their own we don't within their own controlled environments this really allowed companies to make the most of existing investments from data centers to hardware they also gained many new advantages from data sovereignty to new flexible agile approaches I want to bring Burr and his team up here to take a look at what building out an on-premise cloud can look like today Bure take it away I am super excited to be with all of you here at Red Hat summit I know we have some amazing things to show you throughout the week but before we dive into this demonstration I want you to take just a few seconds just a quick moment to think about that really important event your life that moment you turned on your first computer maybe it was a trs-80 listen Claire and Atari I even had an 83 b2 at one point but in my specific case I was sitting in a classroom in Hawaii and I could see all the way from Diamond Head to Pearl Harbor so just keep that in mind and I turn on an IBM PC with dual floppies I don't remember issuing my first commands writing my first level of code and I was totally hooked it was like a magical moment and I've been hooked on computers for the last 30 years so I want you to hold that image in your mind for just a moment just a second while we show you the computers we have here on stage let me turn this over to Jay fair and Dini here's our worldwide DevOps manager and he was going to show us his hardware what do you got Jay thank you BER good morning everyone and welcome to Red Hat summit we have so many cool things to show you this week I am so happy to be here and you know my favorite thing about red hat summit is our allowed to kind of share all of our stories much like bird just did we also love to you know talk about the hardware and the technology that we brought with us in fact it's become a bit of a competition so this year we said you know let's win this thing and we actually I think we might have won we brought a cloud with us so right now this is a private cloud for throughout the course of the week we're going to turn this into a very very interesting open hybrid cloud right before your eyes so everything you see here will be real and happening right on this thing right behind me here so thanks for our four incredible partners IBM Dell HP and super micro we've built a very vendor heterogeneous cloud here extra special thanks to IBM because they loaned us a power nine machine so now we actually have multiple architectures in this cloud so as you know one of the greatest benefits to running Red Hat technology is that we run on just about everything and you know I can't stress enough how powerful that is how cost-effective that is and it just makes my life easier to be honest so if you're interested the people that built this actual rack right here gonna be hanging out in the customer success zone this whole week it's on the second floor the lobby there and they'd be glad to show you exactly how they built this thing so let me show you what we actually have in this rack so contained in this rack we have 1056 physical chorus right here we have five and a half terabytes of RAM and just in case we threw 50 terabytes of storage in this thing so burr that's about two million times more powerful than that first machine you boot it up thanks to a PC we're actually capable of putting all the power needs and cooling right in this rack so there's your data center right there you know it occurred to me last night that I can actually pull the power cord on this thing and kick it up a notch we could have the world's first mobile portable hybrid cloud so I'm gonna go ahead and unplug no no no no no seriously it's not unplug the thing we got it working now well Berg gets a little nervous but next year we're rolling this thing around okay okay so to recap multiple vendors check multiple architectures check multiple public clouds plug right into this thing check and everything everywhere is running the same software from Red Hat so that is a giant check so burn Angus why don't we get the demos rolling awesome so we have totally we have some amazing hardware amazing computers on this stage but now we need to light it up and we have Angus Thomas who represents our OpenStack engineering team and he's going to show us what we can do with this awesome hardware Angus thank you Beth so this was an impressive rack of hardware to Joe has bought a pocket stage what I want to talk about today is putting it to work with OpenStack platform director we're going to turn it from a lot of potential into a flexible scalable private cloud we've been using director for a while now to take care of managing hardware and orchestrating the deployment of OpenStack what's new is that we're bringing the same capabilities for on-premise manager the deployment of OpenShift director deploying OpenShift in this way is the best of both worlds it's bare-metal performance but with an underlying infrastructure as a service that can take care of deploying in new instances and scaling out and a lot of the things that we expect from a cloud provider director is running on a virtual machine on Red Hat virtualization at the top of the rack and it's going to bring everything else under control what you can see on the screen right now is the director UI and as you see some of the hardware in the rack is already being managed at the top level we have information about the number of cores in the amount of RAM and the disks that each machine have if we dig in a bit there's information about MAC addresses and IPs and the management interface the BIOS kernel version dig a little deeper and there is information about the hard disks all of this is important because we want to be able to make sure that we put in workloads exactly where we want them Jay could you please power on the two new machines at the top of the rack sure all right thank you so when those two machines come up on the network director is going to see them see that they're new and not already under management and is it immediately going to go into the hardware inspection that populates this database and gets them ready for use so we also have profiles as you can see here profiles are the way that we match the hardware in a machine to the kind of workload that it's suited to this is how we make sure that machines that have all the discs run Seth and machines that have all the RAM when our application workouts for example there's two ways these can be set when you're dealing with a rack like this you could go in an individually tag each machine but director scales up to data centers so we have a rules matching engine which will automatically take the hardware profile of a new machine and make sure it gets tagged in exactly the right way so we can automatically discover new machines on the network and we can automatically match them to a profile that's how we streamline and scale up operations now I want to talk about deploying the software we have a set of validations we've learned over time about the Miss configurations in the underlying infrastructure which can cause the deployment of a multi node distributed application like OpenStack or OpenShift to fail if you have the wrong VLAN tags on a switch port or DHCP isn't running where it should be for example you can get into a situation which is really hard to debug a lot of our validations actually run before the deployment they look at what you're intending to deploy and they check in the environment is the way that it should be and they'll preempts problems and obviously preemption is a lot better than debugging something new that you probably have not seen before is director managing multiple deployments of different things side by side before we came out on stage we also deployed OpenStack on this rack just to keep me honest let me jump over to OpenStack very quickly a lot of our opens that customers will be familiar with this UI and the bare metal deployment of OpenStack on our rack is actually running a set of virtual machines which is running Gluster you're going to see that put to work later on during the summit Jay's gone to an awful lot effort to get this Hardware up on the stage so we're going to use it as many different ways as we can okay let's deploy OpenShift if I switch over to the deployed a deployment plan view there's a few steps first thing you need to do is make sure we have the hardware I already talked about how director manages hardware it's smart enough to make sure that it's not going to attempt to deploy into machines they're already in use it's only going to deploy on machines that have the right profile but I think with the rack that we have here we've got enough next thing is the deployment configuration this is where you get to customize exactly what's going to be deployed to make sure that it really matches your environment if they're external IPs for additional services you can set them here whatever it takes to make sure that the deployment is going to work for you as you can see on the screen we have a set of options around enable TLS for encryption network traffic if I dig a little deeper there are options around enabling ipv6 and network isolation so that different classes of traffic there are over different physical NICs okay then then we have roles now roles this is essentially about the software that's going to be put on each machine director comes with a set of roles for a lot of the software that RedHat supports and you can just use those or you can modify them a little bit if you need to add a monitoring agent or whatever it might be or you can create your own custom roles director has quite a rich syntax for custom role definition and custom Network topologies whatever it is you need in order to make it work in your environment so the rawls that we have right now are going to give us a working instance of openshift if I go ahead and click through the validations are all looking green so right now I can click the button start to the deploy and you will see things lighting up on the rack directors going to use IPMI to reboot the machines provisioned and with a trail image was the containers on them and start up the application stack okay so one last thing once the deployment is done you're going to want to keep director around director has a lot of capabilities around what we call de to operational management bringing in new Hardware scaling out deployments dealing with updates and critically doing upgrades as well so having said all of that it is time for me to switch over to an instance of openshift deployed by a director running on bare metal on our rack and I need to hand this over to our developer team so they can show what they can do it thank you that is so awesome Angus so what you've seen now is going from bare metal to the ultimate private cloud with OpenStack director make an open shift ready for our developers to build their next generation applications thank you so much guys that was totally awesome I love what you guys showed there now I have the honor now I have the honor of introducing a very special guest one of our earliest OpenShift customers who understands the necessity of the private cloud inside their organization and more importantly they're fundamentally redefining their industry please extend a warm welcome to deep mar Foster from Amadeus well good morning everyone a big thank you for having armadillos here and myself so as it was just set I'm at Mario's well first of all we are a large IT provider in the travel industry so serving essentially Airlines hotel chains this distributors like Expedia and others we indeed we started very early what was OpenShift like a bit more than three years ago and we jumped on it when when Retta teamed with Google to bring in kubernetes into this so let me quickly share a few figures about our Mario's to give you like a sense of what we are doing and the scale of our operations so some of our key KPIs one of our key metrics is what what we call passenger borders so that's the number of customers that physically board a plane over the year so through our systems it's roughly 1.6 billion people checking in taking the aircrafts on under the Amarillo systems close to 600 million travel agency bookings virtually all airlines are on the system and one figure I want to stress out a little bit is this one trillion availability requests per day that's when I read this figure my mind boggles a little bit so this means in continuous throughput more than 10 million hits per second so of course these are not traditional database transactions it's it's it's highly cached in memory and these applications are running over like more than 100,000 course so it's it's it's really big stuff so today I want to give some concrete feedback what we are doing so I have chosen two applications products of our Mario's that are currently running on production in different in different hosting environments as the theme here is of this talk hybrid cloud and so I want to give some some concrete feedback of how we architect the applications and of course it stays relatively high level so here I have taken one of our applications that is used in the hospitality environment so it's we have built this for a very large US hotel chain and it's currently in in full swing brought into production so like 30 percent of the globe or 5,000 plus hotels are on this platform not so here you can see that we use as the path of course on openshift on that's that's the most central piece of our hybrid cloud strategy on the database side we use Oracle and Couchbase Couchbase is used for the heavy duty fast access more key value store but also to replicate data across two data centers in this case it's running over to US based data centers east and west coast topology that are fit so run by Mario's that are fit with VMware on for the virtualization OpenStack on top of it and then open shift to host and welcome the applications on the right hand side you you see the kind of tools if you want to call them tools that we use these are the principal ones of course the real picture is much more complex but in essence we use terraform to map to the api's of the underlying infrastructure so they are obviously there are differences when you run on OpenStack or the Google compute engine or AWS Azure so some some tweaking is needed we use right at ansible a lot we also use puppet so you can see these are really the big the big pieces of of this sense installation and if we look to the to the topology again very high high level so these two locations basically map the data centers of our customers so they are in close proximity because the response time and the SLA is of this application is are very tight so that's an example of an application that is architectures mostly was high ability and high availability in minds not necessarily full global worldwide scaling but of course it could be scaled but here the idea is that we can swing from one data center to the unit to the other in matters of of minutes both take traffic data is fully synchronized across those data centers and while the switch back and forth is very fast the second example I have taken is what we call the shopping box this is when people go to kayak or Expedia and they're getting inspired where they want to travel to this is really the piece that shoots most of transit of the transactions into our Mario's so we architect here more for high scalability of course availability is also a key but here scaling and geographical spread is very important so in short it runs partially on-premise in our Amarillo Stata Center again on OpenStack and we we deploy it mostly in the first step on the Google compute engine and currently as we speak on Amazon on AWS and we work also together with Retta to qualify the whole show on Microsoft Azure here in this application it's it's the same building blocks there is a large swimming aspect to it so we bring Kafka into this working with records and another partner to bring Kafka on their open shift because at the end we want to use open shift to administrate the whole show so over time also databases and the topology here when you look to the physical deployment topology while it's very classical we use the the regions and the availability zone concept so this application is spread over three principal continental regions and so it's again it's a high-level view with different availability zones and in each of those availability zones we take a hit of several 10,000 transactions so that was it really in very short just to give you a glimpse on how we implement hybrid clouds I think that's the way forward it gives us a lot of freedom and it allows us to to discuss in a much more educated way with our customers that sometimes have already deals in place with one cloud provider or another so for us it's a lot of value to set two to leave them the choice basically what up that was a very quick overview of what we are doing we were together with records are based on open shift essentially here and more and more OpenStack coming into the picture hope you found this interesting thanks a lot and have a nice summer [Applause] thank you so much deeper great great solution we've worked with deep Marv and his team for a long for a long time great solution so I want to take us back a little bit I want to circle back I sort of ended talking a little bit about the public cloud so let's circle back there you know even so even though some applications need to run in various footprints on premise there's still great gains to be had that for running certain applications in the public cloud a public cloud will be as impactful to to the industry as as UNIX era was of computing was but by itself it'll have some of the same limitations and challenges that that model had today there's tremendous cloud innovation happening in the public cloud it's being driven by a handful of massive companies and much like the innovation that sundeck HP and others drove in a you in the UNIX era of community of computing many customers want to take advantage of the best innovation no matter where it comes from buddy but as they even eventually saw in the UNIX era they can't afford the best innovation at the cost of a siloed operating environment with the open community we are building a hybrid application platform that can give you access to the best innovation no matter which vendor or which cloud that it comes from letting public cloud providers innovate and services beyond what customers or anyone can one provider can do on their own such as large scale learning machine learning or artificial intelligence built on the data that's unique probably to that to that one cloud but consumed in a common way for the end customer across all applications in any environment on any footprint in in their overall IT infrastructure this is exactly what rel brought brought to our customers in the UNIX era of computing that consistency across any of those footprints obviously enterprises will have applications for all different uses some will live on premise some in the cloud hybrid cloud is the only practical way forward I think you've been hearing that from us for a long time it is the only practical way forward and it'll be as impactful as anything we've ever seen before I want to bring Byrne his team back to see a hybrid cloud deployment in action burr [Music] all right earlier you saw what we did with taking bare metal and lighting it up with OpenStack director and making it openshift ready for developers to build their next generation applications now we want to show you when those next turn and generation applications and what we've done is we take an open shift and spread it out and installed it across Asia and Amazon a true hybrid cloud so with me on stage today as Ted who's gonna walk us through an application and Brent Midwood who's our DevOps engineer who's gonna be making sure he's monitoring on the backside that we do make sure we do a good job so at this point Ted what have you got for us Thank You BER and good morning everybody this morning we are running on the stage in our private cloud an application that's providing its providing fraud detection detect serves for financial transactions and our customer base is rather large and we occasionally take extended bursts of traffic of heavy traffic load so in order to keep our latency down and keep our customers happy we've deployed extra service capacity in the public cloud so we have capacity with Microsoft Azure in Texas and with Amazon Web Services in Ohio so we use open chip container platform on all three locations because openshift makes it easy for us to deploy our containerized services wherever we want to put them but the question still remains how do we establish seamless communication across our entire enterprise and more importantly how do we balance the workload across these three locations in such a way that we efficiently use our resources and that we give our customers the best possible experience so this is where Red Hat amq interconnect comes in as you can see we've deployed a MQ interconnect alongside our fraud detection applications in all three locations and if I switch to the MQ console we'll see the topology of the app of the network that we've created here so the router inside the on stage here has made connections outbound to the public routers and AWS and Azure these connections are secured using mutual TLS authentication and encrypt and once these connections are established amq figures out the best way auda matically to route traffic to where it needs to get to so what we have right now is a distributed reliable broker list message bus that expands our entire enterprise now if you want to learn more about this make sure that you catch the a MQ breakout tomorrow at 11:45 with Jack Britton and David Ingham let's have a look at the message flow and we'll dive in and isolate the fraud detection API that we're interested in and what we see is that all the traffic is being handled in the private cloud that's what we expect because our latencies are low and they're acceptable but now if we take a little bit of a burst of increased traffic we're gonna see that an EQ is going to push a little a bi traffic out onto the out to the public cloud so as you're picking up some of the load now to keep the Layton sees down now when that subsides as your finishes up what it's doing and goes back offline now if we take a much bigger load increase you'll see two things first of all asher is going to take a bigger proportion than it did before and Amazon Web Services is going to get thrown into the fray as well now AWS is actually doing less work than I expected it to do I expected a little bit of bigger a slice there but this is a interesting illustration of what's going on for load balancing mq load balancing is sending requests to the services that have the lowest backlog and in order to keep the Layton sees as steady as possible so AWS is probably running slowly for some reason and that's causing a and Q to push less traffic its way now the other thing you're going to notice if you look carefully this graph fluctuate slightly and those fluctuations are caused by all the variances in the network we have the cloud on stage and we have clouds in in the various places across the country there's a lot of equipment locked layers of virtualization and networking in between and we're reacting in real-time to the reality on the digital street so BER what's the story with a to be less I noticed there's a problem right here right now we seem to have a little bit performance issue so guys I noticed that as well and a little bit ago I actually got an alert from red ahead of insights letting us know that there might be some potential optimizations we could make to our environment so let's take a look at insights so here's the Red Hat insights interface you can see our three OpenShift deployments so we have the set up here on stage in San Francisco we have our Azure deployment in Texas and we also have our AWS deployment in Ohio and insights is highlighting that that deployment in Ohio may have some issues that need some attention so Red Hat insights collects anonymized data from manage systems across our customer environment and that gives us visibility into things like vulnerabilities compliance configuration assessment and of course Red Hat subscription consumption all of this is presented in a SAS offering so it's really really easy to use it requires minimal infrastructure upfront and it provides an immediate return on investment what insights is showing us here is that we have some potential issues on the configuration side that may need some attention from this view I actually get a look at all the systems in our inventory including instances and containers and you can see here on the left that insights is highlighting one of those instances as needing some potential attention it might be a candidate for optimization this might be related to the issues that you were seeing just a minute ago insights uses machine learning and AI techniques to analyze all collected data so we combine collected data from not only the system's configuration but also with other systems from across the Red Hat customer base this allows us to compare ourselves to how we're doing across the entire set of industries including our own vertical in this case the financial services industry and we can compare ourselves to other customers we also get access to tailored recommendations that let us know what we can do to optimize our systems so in this particular case we're actually detecting an issue here where we are an outlier so our configuration has been compared to other configurations across the customer base and in this particular instance in this security group were misconfigured and so insights actually gives us the steps that we need to use to remediate the situation and the really neat thing here is that we actually get access to a custom ansible playbook so if we want to automate that type of a remediation we can use this inside of Red Hat ansible tower Red Hat satellite Red Hat cloud forms it's really really powerful the other thing here is that we can actually apply these recommendations right from within the Red Hat insights interface so with just a few clicks I can select all the recommendations that insights is making and using that built-in ansible automation I can apply those recommendations really really quickly across a variety of systems this type of intelligent automation is really cool it's really fast and powerful so really quickly here we're going to see the impact of those changes and so we can tell that we're doing a little better than we were a few minutes ago when compared across the customer base as well as within the financial industry and if we go back and look at the map we should see that our AWS employment in Ohio is in a much better state than it was just a few minutes ago so I'm wondering Ted if this had any effect and might be helping with some of the issues that you were seeing let's take a look looks like went green now let's see what it looks like over here yeah doesn't look like the configuration is taking effect quite yet maybe there's some delay awesome fantastic the man yeah so now we're load balancing across the three clouds very much fantastic well I have two minute Ted I truly love how we can route requests and dynamically load transactions across these three clouds a truly hybrid cloud native application you guys saw here on on stage for the first time and it's a fully portable application if you build your applications with openshift you can mover from cloud to cloud to cloud on stage private all the way out to the public said it's totally awesome we also have the application being fully managed by Red Hat insights I love having that intelligence watching over us and ensuring that we're doing everything correctly that is fundamentally awesome thank you so much for that well we actually have more to show you but you're going to wait a few minutes longer right now we'd like to welcome Paul back to the stage and we have a very special early Red Hat customer an Innovation Award winner from 2010 who's been going boldly forward with their open hybrid cloud strategy please give a warm welcome to Monty Finkelstein from Citigroup [Music] [Music] hi Marty hey Paul nice to see you thank you very much for coming so thank you for having me Oh our pleasure if you if you wanted to we sort of wanted to pick your brain a little bit about your experiences and sort of leading leading the charge in computing here so we're all talking about hybrid cloud how has the hybrid cloud strategy influenced where you are today in your computing environment so you know when we see the variable the various types of workload that we had an hour on from cloud we see the peaks we see the valleys we see the demand on the environment that we have we really determined that we have to have a much more elastic more scalable capability so we can burst and stretch our environments to multiple cloud providers these capabilities have now been proven at City and of course we consider what the data risk is as well as any regulatory requirement so how do you how do you tackle the complexity of multiple cloud environments so every cloud provider has its own unique set of capabilities they have they're own api's distributions value-added services we wanted to make sure that we could arbitrate between the different cloud providers maintain all source code and orchestration capabilities on Prem to drive those capabilities from within our platforms this requires controlling the entitlements in a cohesive fashion across our on Prem and Wolfram both for security services automation telemetry as one seamless unit can you talk a bit about how you decide when you to use your own on-premise infrastructure versus cloud resources sure so there are multiple dimensions that we take into account right so the first dimension we talk about the risk so low risk - high risk and and really that's about the data classification of the environment we're talking about so whether it's public or internal which would be considered low - ooh confidential PII restricted sensitive and so on and above which is really what would be considered a high-risk the second dimension would be would focus on demand volatility and responsiveness sensitivity so this would range from low response sensitivity and low variability of the type of workload that we have to the high response sensitivity and high variability of the workload the first combination that we focused on is the low risk and high variability and high sensitivity for response type workload of course any of the workloads we ensure that we're regulatory compliant as well as we achieve customer benefits with within this environment so how can we give developers greater control of their their infrastructure environments and still help operations maintain that consistency in compliance so the main driver is really to use the public cloud is scale speed and increased developer efficiencies as well as reducing cost as well as risk this would mean providing develop workspaces and multiple environments for our developers to quickly create products for our customers all this is done of course in a DevOps model while maintaining the source and artifacts registry on-prem this would allow our developers to test and select various middleware products another product but also ensure all the compliance activities in a centrally controlled repository so we really really appreciate you coming by and sharing that with us today Monte thank you so much for coming to the red echo thanks a lot thanks again tamati I mean you know there's these real world insight into how our products and technologies are really running the businesses today that's that's just the most exciting part so thank thanks thanks again mati no even it with as much progress as you've seen demonstrated here and you're going to continue to see all week long we're far from done so I want to just take us a little bit into the path forward and where we we go today we've talked about this a lot innovation today is driven by open source development I don't think there's any question about that certainly not in this room and even across the industry as a whole that's a long way that we've come from when we started our first summit 14 years ago with over a million open source projects out there this unit this innovation aggregates into various community platforms and it finally culminates in commercial open source based open source developed products these products run many of the mission-critical applications in business today you've heard just a couple of those today here on stage but it's everywhere it's running the world today but to make customers successful with that interact innovation to run their real-world business applications these open source products have to be able to leverage increase increasingly complex infrastructure footprints we must also ensure a common base for the developer and ultimately the application no matter which footprint they choose as you heard mati say the developers want choice here no matter which no matter which footprint they are ultimately going to run their those applications on they want that flexibility from the data center to possibly any public cloud out there in regardless of whether that application was built yesterday or has been running the business for the last 10 years and was built on 10-year old technology this is the flexibility that developers require today but what does different infrastructure we may require different pieces of the technical stack in that deployment one example of this that Effects of many things as KVM which provides the foundation for many of those use cases that require virtualization KVM offers a level of consistency from a technical perspective but rel extends that consistency to add a level of commercial and ecosystem consistency for the application across all those footprints this is very important in the enterprise but while rel and KVM formed the foundation other technologies are needed to really satisfy the functions on these different footprints traditional virtualization has requirements that are satisfied by projects like overt and products like Rev traditional traditional private cloud implementations has requirements that are satisfied on projects like OpenStack and products like Red Hat OpenStack platform and as applications begin to become more container based we are seeing many requirements driven driven natively into containers the same Linux in different forms provides this common base across these four footprints this level of compatible compatibility is critical to operators who must best utilize the infinite must better utilize secure and deploy the infrastructure that they have and they're responsible for developers on the other hand they care most about having a platform that can creates that consistency for their applications they care about their services and the services that they need to consume within those applications and they don't want limitations on where they run they want service but they want it anywhere not necessarily just from Amazon they want integration between applications no matter where they run they still want to run their Java EE now named Jakarta EE apps and bring those applications forward into containers and micro services they need able to orchestrate these frameworks and many more across all these different footprints in a consistent secure fashion this creates natural tension between development and operations frankly customers amplify this tension with organizational boundaries that are holdover from the UNIX era of computing it's really the job of our platforms to seamlessly remove these boundaries and it's the it's the goal of RedHat to seamlessly get you from the old world to the new world we're gonna show you a really cool demo demonstration now we're gonna show you how you can automate this transition first we're gonna take a Windows virtual machine from a traditional VMware deployment we're gonna convert it into a KVM based virtual machine running in a container all under the kubernetes umbrella this makes virtual machines more access more accessible to the developer this will accelerate the transformation of those virtual machines into cloud native container based form well we will work this prot we will worked as capability over the product line in the coming releases so we can strike the balance of enabling our developers to move in this direction we want to be able to do this while enabling mission-critical operations to still do their job so let's bring Byrne his team back up to show you this in action for one more thanks all right what Red Hat we recognized that large organizations large enterprises have a substantial investment and legacy virtualization technology and this is holding you back you have thousands of virtual machines that need to be modernized so what you're about to see next okay it's something very special with me here on stage we have James Lebowski he's gonna be walking us through he's represents our operations folks and he's gonna be walking us through a mass migration but also is Itamar Hine who's our lead developer of a very special application and he's gonna be modernizing container izing and optimizing our application all right so let's get started James thanks burr yeah so as you can see I have a typical VMware environment here I'm in the vSphere client I've got a number of virtual machines a handful of them that make up my one of my applications for my development environment in this case and what I want to do is migrate those over to a KVM based right at virtualization environment so what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna go to cloud forms our cloud management platform that's our first step and you know cloud forms actually already has discovered both my rev environment and my vSphere environment and understands the compute network and storage there so you'll notice one of the capabilities we built is this new capability called migrations and underneath here I could begin to there's two steps and the first thing I need to do is start to create my infrastructure mappings what this will allow me to do is map my compute networking storage between vSphere and Rev so cloud forms understands how those relate let's go ahead and create an infrastructure mapping I'll call that summit infrastructure mapping and then I'm gonna begin to map my two environments first the compute so the clusters here next the data stores so those virtual machines happen to live on datastore - in vSphere and I'll target them a datastore data to inside of my revenue Arman and finally my networks those live on network 100 so I'll map those from vSphere to rover so once my infrastructure is map the next step I need to do is actually begin to create a plan to migrate those virtual machines so I'll continue to the plan wizard here I'll select the infrastructure mapping I just created and I'll select migrate my development environment from those virtual machines to Rev and then I need to import a CSV file the CSV file is going to contain a list of all the virtual machines that I want to migrate that were there and that's it once I hit create what's going to happen cloud forms is going to begin in an automated fashion shutting down those virtual machines begin converting them taking care of all the minutia that you'd have to do manually it's gonna do that all automatically for me so I don't have to worry about all those manual interactions and no longer do I have to go manually shut them down but it's going to take care of that all for me you can see the migrations kicked off here this is the I've got the my VMs are migrating here and if I go back to the screen here you can see that we're gonna start seeing those shutdown okay awesome but as people want to know more information about this how would they dive deeper into this technology later this week yeah it's a great question so we have a workload portability session in the hybrid cloud on Wednesday if you want to see a presentation that deep dives into this topic and how some of the methodologies to migrate and then on Thursday we actually have a hands-on lab it's the IT optimization VM migration lab that you can check out and as you can see those are shutting down here yeah we see a powering off right now that's fantastic absolutely so if I go back now that's gonna take a while you got to convert all the disks and move them over but we'll notice is previously I had already run one migration of a single application that was a Windows virtual machine running and if I browse over to Red Hat virtualization I can see on the dashboard here I could browse to virtual machines I have migrated that Windows virtual machine and if I open up a tab I can now browse to my Windows virtual machine which is running our wingtip toy store application our sample application here and now my VM has been moved over from Rev to Vita from VMware to Rev and is available for Itamar all right great available to our developers all right Itamar what are you gonna do for us here well James it's great that you can save cost by moving from VMware to reddit virtualization but I want to containerize our application and with container native virtualization I can run my virtual machine on OpenShift like any other container using Huebert a kubernetes operator to run and manage virtual machines let's look at the open ship service catalog you can see we have a new virtualization section here we can import KVM or VMware virtual machines or if there are already loaded we can create new instances of them for the developer to work with just need to give named CPU memory we can do other virtualization parameters and create our virtual machines now let's see how this looks like in the openshift console the cool thing about KVM is virtual machines are just Linux processes so they can act and behave like other open shipped applications we build in more than a decade of virtualization experience with KVM reddit virtualization and OpenStack and can now benefit from kubernetes and open shift to manage and orchestrate our virtual machines since we know this virtual machine this container is actually a virtual machine we can do virtual machine stuff with it like shutdown reboot or open a remote desktop session to it but we can also see this is just a container like any other container in openshift and even though the web application is running inside a Windows virtual machine the developer can still use open shift mechanisms like services and routes let's browse our web application using the OpenShift service it's the same wingtip toys application but this time the virtual machine is running on open shift but we're not done we want to containerize our application since it's a Windows virtual machine we can open a remote desktop session to it we see we have here Visual Studio and an asp.net application let's start container izing by moving the Microsoft sequel server database from running inside the Windows virtual machine to running on Red Hat Enterprise Linux as an open shipped container we'll go back to the open shipped Service Catalog this time we'll go to the database section and just as easily we'll create a sequel server container just need to accept the EULA provide password and choose the Edition we want and create a database and again we can see the sequel server is just another container running on OpenShift now let's take let's find the connection details for our database to keep this simple we'll take the IP address of our database service go back to the web application to visual studio update the IP address in the connection string publish our application and go back to browse it through OpenShift fortunately for us the user experience team heard we're modernizing our application so they pitched in and pushed new icons to use with our containerized database to also modernize the look and feel it's still the same wingtip toys application it's running in a virtual machine on openshift but it's now using a containerized database to recap we saw that we can run virtual machines natively on openshift like any other container based application modernize and mesh them together we containerize the database but we can use the same approach to containerize any part of our application so some items here to deserve repeating one thing you saw is Red Hat Enterprise Linux burning sequel server in a container on open shift and you also saw Windows VM where the dotnet native application also running inside of open ships so tell us what's special about that that seems pretty crazy what you did there exactly burr if we take a look under the hood we can use the kubernetes commands to see the list of our containers in this case the sequel server and the virtual machine containers but since Q Bert is a kubernetes operator we can actually use kubernetes commands like cube Cpl to list our virtual machines and manage our virtual machines like any other entity in kubernetes I love that so there's your crew meta gem oh we can see the kind says virtual machine that is totally awesome now people here are gonna be very excited about what they just saw we're gonna get more information and when will this be coming well you know what can they do to dive in this will be available as part of reddit Cloud suite in tech preview later this year but we are looking for early adopters now so give us a call also come check our deep dive session introducing container native virtualization Thursday 2:00 p.m. awesome that is so incredible so we went from the old to the new from the close to the open the Red Hat way you're gonna be seeing more from our demonstration team that's coming Thursday at 8 a.m. do not be late if you like what you saw this today you're gonna see a lot more of that going forward so we got some really special things in store for you so at this point thank you so much in tomorrow thank you so much you guys are awesome yeah now we have one more special guest a very early adopter of Red Hat Enterprise Linux we've had over a 12-year partnership and relationship with this organization they've been a steadfast Linux and middleware customer for many many years now please extend a warm welcome to Raj China from the Royal Bank of Canada thank you thank you it's great to be here RBC is a large global full-service is back we have the largest bank in Canada top 10 global operate in 30 countries and run five key business segments personal commercial banking investor in Treasury services capital markets wealth management and insurance but honestly unless you're in the banking segment those five business segments that I just mentioned may not mean a lot to you but what you might appreciate is the fact that we've been around in business for over 150 years we started our digital transformation journey about four years ago and we are focused on new and innovative technologies that will help deliver the capabilities and lifestyle our clients are looking for we have a very simple vision and we often refer to it as the digitally enabled bank of the future but as you can appreciate transforming a hundred fifty year old Bank is not easy it certainly does not happen overnight to that end we had a clear unwavering vision a very strong innovation agenda and most importantly a focus towards a flawless execution today in banking business strategy and IT strategy are one in the same they are not two separate things we believe that in order to be the number one bank we have to have the number one tactic there is no question that most of today's innovations happens in the open source community RBC relies on RedHat as a key partner to help us consume these open source innovations in a manner that it meets our enterprise needs RBC was an early adopter of Linux we operate one of the largest footprints of rel in Canada same with tables we had tremendous success in driving cost out of infrastructure by partnering with rahat while at the same time delivering a world-class hosting service to your business over our 12 year partnership Red Hat has proven that they have mastered the art of working closely with the upstream open source community understanding the needs of an enterprise like us in delivering these open source innovations in a manner that we can consume and build upon we are working with red hat to help increase our agility and better leverage public and private cloud offerings we adopted virtualization ansible and containers and are excited about continuing our partnership with Red Hat in this journey throughout this journey we simply cannot replace everything we've had from the past we have to bring forward these investments of the past and improve upon them with new and emerging technologies it is about utilizing emerging technologies but at the same time focusing on the business outcome the business outcome for us is serving our clients and delivering the information that they are looking for whenever they need it and in whatever form factor they're looking for but technology improvements alone are simply not sufficient to do a digital transformation creating the right culture of change and adopting new methodologies is key we introduced agile and DevOps which has boosted the number of adult projects at RBC and increase the frequency at which we do new releases to our mobile app as a matter of fact these methodologies have enabled us to deliver apps over 20x faster than before the other point about around culture that I wanted to mention was we wanted to build an engineering culture an engineering culture is one which rewards curiosity trying new things investing in new technologies and being a leader not necessarily a follower Red Hat has been a critical partner in our journey to date as we adopt elements of open source culture in engineering culture what you seen today about red hearts focus on new technology innovations while never losing sight of helping you bring forward the investments you've already made in the past is something that makes Red Hat unique we are excited to see red arts investment in leadership in open source technologies to help bring the potential of these amazing things together thank you that's great the thing you know seeing going from the old world to the new with automation so you know the things you've seen demonstrated today they're they're they're more sophisticated than any one company could ever have done on their own certainly not by using a proprietary development model because of this it's really easy to see why open source has become the center of gravity for enterprise computing today with all the progress open-source has made we're constantly looking for new ways of accelerating that into our products so we can take that into the enterprise with customers like these that you've met what you've met today now we recently made in addition to the Red Hat family we brought in core OS to the Red Hat family and you know adding core OS has really been our latest move to accelerate that innovation into our products this will help the adoption of open shift container platform even deeper into the enterprise and as we did with the Linux core platform in 2002 this is just exactly what we did with with Linux back then today we're announcing some exciting new technology directions first we'll integrate the benefits of automated operations so for example you'll see dramatic improvements in the automated intelligence about the state of your clusters in OpenShift with the core OS additions also as part of open shift will include a new variant of rel called Red Hat core OS maintaining the consistency of rel farhat for the operation side of the house while allowing for a consumption of over-the-air updates from the kernel to kubernetes later today you'll hear how we are extending automated operations beyond customers and even out to partners all of this starting with the next release of open shift in July now all of this of course will continue in an upstream open source innovation model that includes continuing container linux for the community users today while also evolving the commercial products to bring that innovation out to the enterprise this this combination is really defining the platform of the future everything we've done for the last 16 years since we first brought rel to the commercial market because get has been to get us just to this point hybrid cloud computing is now being deployed multiple times in enterprises every single day all powered by the open source model and powered by the open source model we will continue to redefine the software industry forever no in 2002 with all of you we made Linux the choice for enterprise computing this changed the innovation model forever and I started the session today talking about our prediction of seven years ago on the future being open we've all seen so much happen in those in those seven years we at Red Hat have celebrated our 25th anniversary including 16 years of rel and the enterprise it's now 2018 open hybrid cloud is not only a reality but it is the driving model in enterprise computing today and this hybrid cloud world would not even be possible without Linux as a platform in the open source development model a build around it and while we have think we may have accomplished a lot in that time and we may think we have changed the world a lot we have but I'm telling you the best is yet to come now that Linux and open source software is firmly driving that innovation in the enterprise what we've accomplished today and up till now has just set the stage for us together to change the world once again and just as we did with rel more than 15 years ago with our partners we will make hybrid cloud the default in the enterprise and I will take that bet every single day have a great show and have fun watching the future of computing unfold right in front of your eyes see you later [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] anytime [Music]

>> Announcer: From Berlin, Germany, it's the CUBE covering Dataworks Summit Europe 2018. Brought to you by Hortonworks. >> Welcome to the CUBE, we're here at Dataworks Summit 2018 in Berlin. I'm James Kobielus. I am the lead analyst for big data analytics on the Wikibon team of SiliconANGLE Media On the CUBE, we extract the signal from the noise and here at Dataworks Summit, the signal is big data analytics and increasingly the imperative for many enterprises is compliance with GDPR, the General Data Protection Regulation comes in five weeks, May 25th. There's more things going on so what I'm going to be doing today for the next 20 minutes or so is from Hortonworks I have Abhas Ricky who is the director of strategy and innovation. He helps customers, and he'll explain what he does, but at a high level, he helps customers to identify the value of investments in big data, analytics, big data platforms in their business. And Abhas, how do you justify the value of compliance with GDPR. I guess, the value would be avoid penalties for noncompliance, right? Can you do it as an upside as well? Is there an upside in terms of if you make an investment, and you probably will need to make an investment to comply, Can you turn this around as a strategic asset, possibly? Yeah, so I'll take a step back first. >> James: Like a big data catalog and so forth. >> Yeah, so if you look at the value part which you said, it's interesting that you mentioned it. So there's a study which was done by McKinsey which said that only 15% of executives can understand what is the value of a digital initiative, let alone big data initiative. >> James: Yeah. >> Similarly, Gardner says that if you look at the various portraits and if you look at various issues, the fundamental thing which executives struggle with identifying the value which they will get. So that is where I pitch in. That is where I come in and do a data perspective. Now if you look at GDPR specifically, one of the things that we believe, and I've done multiple blogs around that and webinars, GDPR should be treated at a business opportunity because of the fact that -- >> James: Any opportunity? Business opportunity. It shouldn't necessarily be seen as a compliance burden on costs or your balance sheets because of the fact, it is the one single opportunity which allows you to clean up your data supply chain. It allows you to look at your data assets with a holistic view, and if you create a transparent data supply chain, and your IT systems talk to each other. So some of the provisions, as you know, in addition to right to content, right to portability, etc. It is also privacy by design which says that you have to be proactive in defining your IT systems and architecture. It's not necessarily reactive. But guess what? If you're able to do that, you will see the benefits in other use cases like single view of customer or fraud or anti-money laundering because at the end of the day, all GDPR is allowing you to say is that where do you store your data, what's the lineage, what's the provenance? Can you identify what the personally identifiable information is for any particular customer? And can you use that to your effect as you go forward? So it's a great opportunity because to be able to comply with the provisions, you've got to take steps before that which is essentially streamlining your data operations which obviously will have a domino effect on the efficiency of other use cases. So I believe it's a business opportunity. >> Right, now part of that opportunity in terms of getting your arms around what data you have, when the GDPR is concerned, the customer has a right to withhold consent for you and the enterprise that holds that data to use that personal data of theirs which they own for various and sundry reasons. Many enterprises and many of Hortonworks customers are using their big data for things like AI and machine learning. Won't this compliance with GDPR limit their ability to seize the opportunity to build deep learning and so forth? What are customers saying about that? Is that going to be kind of a downer or a chilling effect on their investments in AI and so forth? >> So there's two elements around it. The first thing which you said, there are customers, there's machine learning in AI, yes, there are. But broadly speaking, before you're able to do machine learning and AI, you need to get your data sets onto a particular platform in a particular fashion, clean data, otherwise, you can't do AI or machine learning on top of it. >> James: Right. So the reason why I say it's an opportunity is that because you're being forced by compliance to get that data from every other place onto this platform. So obviously those capabilities will get enhanced. Having said, I do agree if I'm an organization which does targeting, retargeting of customers based on multiple segmentations and then one of the things is online advertisements. In that case, yes, your ability might get affected, but I don't think you'll get prohibited. And that affected time span will be only small because you just adapt. So the good thing about machine learning and AI is that you don't create rules, you don't create manual rules. They pick up the rules based on the patterns and how the data sets have been performing. So obviously once you have created those structures in place, initially, yes, you'll have to make an investment to alter your programs of work. However, going forward, it will be even better. Because guess what? You just cleaned your entire data supply chain. So that's how I would see that, yes, a lot of companies, ecommerce you do targeting and retargeting based on the customer DNA, based on their shopping profiles, based on their shopping ad libs and then based off that, you give them the next best offer or whatever. So, yes, that might get affected initially, but that's not because GDPR is there or not. That's just because you're changing your program software. You're changing the fundamental way by which you're sourcing the data, the way they are coming from and which data can you use. But once you have tags against each of those attributes, once you have access controls, once you know exactly which customer attributes you can touch and you cannot for the purposes, do you have consent or not, your life's even better. The AI tools or the machine learning algorithms will learn from themselves. >> Right, so essentially, once you have a tight ship in terms of managing your data in line with the GDPR strictures and so forth, it sounds like what you're saying is that it gives you as an enterprise the confidence and assurance that if you want to use that data and need to use that data, you know exactly how you've the processes in place to gain the necessary consents from customers. So there won't be any nasty surprises later on of customers complaining because you've got legal procedures for getting the consent and that's great. You know, one of the things, Abhas, we're hearing right now in terms of compliance requirements that are coming along, maybe not apart of GDPR directly yet, but related to it is the whole notion of algorithmic transparency. As you build machine learning models and these machine learning models are driven into working applications, being able to transparently identify if those models make, in particular, let's say autonomous action based on particular data and particular variables, and then there is some nasty consequences like crashing an autonomous vehicle, the ability, they call it explicably AI to roll that back and determine who's liable for that event. Does Hortonworks have any capability within your portfolio to enable more transparency into the algorithmic underpinnings of a given decision? Is that something that you enable in your solutions or that your partner IBM enables through DSX and so forth? Give us a sense whether that's a capability currently that you guys offer and whether that's something in terms of your understand, are customers asking for that yet or is that too futuristic? >> So I would say that it's a two-part question. >> James: Yeah. >> The first one, yes, there are multiple regulations coming in, like Vilica Financial Markets, there's Mid Fair, the BCBS, etc. and organizations have to comply. You've got the IFRS which span to brokers, the insurance, etc., etc. So, yes, a lot of organizations across industries are getting affected by compliance use cases. Where does Hortonworks come into the picture is to be able to be compliant from a data standpoint, A you need to be able to identify which of those data sources you need to implement a particular use case. B you need to get them to a certain point whereby you can do analytics on that And then there's the whole storage and processing and all of that. But also which you might have heard at the keynote today, from a cloud perspective, it's starting to get more and more complex because everyone's moving to the cloud which means, if you look at any large multi-national organization, most of them have a hybrid cloud structure because they work with two or three cloud vendors which makes the process even more complex because now you have multiple clusters, you have have on premise and you have multiple different IT systems who need to talk to each other. Which is where the Hortonworks data plan services come into the picture because it gives you a unified view of your global data assets. >> James: Yes. >> Think of it like a single pane of glass which whereby you can do security and governance across all data assets. So from those angles, yes, we definitely enable those use cases which will help with compliance. >> Making the case to the customer for a big data catalog along the lines of what you guys offer, in making the case, there's a lot of upfront data architectural work that needs to be done to get all you data assets into shape within the context of the catalog. How do they justify making that expense in terms of hiring the people, the data architects and so forth needed to put it all in shape. I mean, how long does it take before you can really stand up in your working data catalog in most companies? >> So again, you've asked two questions. First of all is how do they justify it? Which is where we say that the platform is a means to an end. It's enabling you to deliver use cases. So I look at it in terms of five key value drivers. Either it's a risk reduction or it's a cost reduction or it's a cost avoidance. >> James: Okay. >> Or it's a revenue optimization, or it's time to market. Against each one of these value drivers, or multiple of them or a combination of them, each of the use cases that you're delivering on the platform will lead you to benefits around that. My job, obviously, is to work with the customers and executes to understand what will that be to quantify the potential impact which will then form the basis and give my customer champions enough ammunition so that they can go back and justify those investments. >> James: Abhas, we're going to have to cut it short, but I'm going to let you finish your point here, but we have to end this segment so go ahead. >> That's fine. >> Okay, well, anyway, have had Abhas Ricky who is the director of strategy and innovation at Hortonworks. We're here at Dataworks Summit Berlin. And thank you very much Sorry to cut it short, but we have to move to the next guest. >> No worries, pleasure, thank you very much. >> Take care, have a good one. >> Thanks a lot, yes. (upbeat music)

>> Hello and welcome to a special CUBE Conversation. I'm John Furrier, the co-founder of SiliconANGLE on theCUBE. We're here in Sundance 2018 at the Intel Tech Lounge for a panel discussion with experts on the topic of The New Creative. We believe a new creative renaissance is coming in application development and also artistry. The role of craft and the role of technology and software coming together at the intersection. You're seeing results in the gaming industry. Virtual reality, augmented reality, mixed reality. A new wave is coming and it's really inspiring, but also there's a few thought leaders at the front end of this big wave setting the trends and they're here with us in this special panel for The New Creative. Here with us is Brooks Browne, Global Director of VR at Starbreeze Studios, a lot to share there, welcome to the panel. Lisa Watt, VR Marketing Strategist at Intel, Intel powering a lot of these VR games here. And Winslow Porter, co-founder and director of The New Reality Company. Many submissions at Sundance. Not this year, but a ton of experience talk about the role of Sundance and artistry. And then we have Gary Radburn who's a director of commercial VR and AR from media within Dell, Dell Technologies. Guys, welcome to this panel. Lisa, I want to start off with you at Intel. Obviously the Tech Lounge here, phenomenal location on Main Street in Sundance. Really drawing a massive crowd. Yesterday it was packed. This is a new generation here and you're seeing a younger demographic. You're seeing savvier consumers. They love tech, but interesting Sundance is turning into kind of an artistry tech show and the game is changing, your thoughts on this new creative. >> Yeah, it's been amazing to watch. I've been here for, this is my third year coming back with VR experiences. And it's really just been incredible to see. Sundance has been on the leading edge of exploring new technologies for a long time and I think this is, I feel like you know this feels like the break out year really. I mean, it's been successful the last few years, but something about this year feels a little bit different. And I think maybe it's the people are getting more familiar with the technology. I think the artists are getting more comfortable with how to push the boundaries. And then we certainly are getting a lot out of seeing what they're doing and how we can improve our products in the future. >> We were talking yesterday, Lisa, about the dynamic at Sundance. And you were mentioning that you see a few trends popping out. What is the most important story this year for the folks who couldn't make it, who might be watching this video that you see at Sundance? Obviously it's a great day today, it's snowing, it's a white day, it's beautiful powder, greatest snow on Earth. But there's some trends that are emerging. We had a march this morning, the Women's March. You're seeing interesting signals. What's your view? >> I think there's a lot less desire to put up with subpar experiences. I mean I think everyone is really starting to push the boundaries, I mean, we saw a lot of 360 video which we love for a linear narrative. But they're really breaking out and really exploring what does it mean to have autonomy especially in the virtual reality experiences, a lot more social is coming to the forefront. And then a lot more exploration of haptics and the new ways of extending into more 4D effects, etc. So I think it's very very exciting. We're really excited to see all the new innovations. >> Winslow, I want to ask you, if you can comment, you've been an active participant in the community with submissions here at Sundance. This year you're kind of chilling out, hanging out. You've been on the front lines, what is your take on the vibe? What's the sentiment out there? Because you're seeing the wave coming, we're feeling it. It feels early. I don't know how early it is, and the impact to people doing great creative work. What's that take? >> Well yeah, it's kind of like VR years are like dog years, you know. Like a lot can happen in a month in the VR space. So I had a piece here in 2014 called Clouds. It was an interactive documentary about Creative Code, but that was back when there was only two other VR pieces. It's interesting to see how the landscape has changed. Because CCP Games had a piece there. An early version of E Valkyrie. And unfortunately in the last three months, they had to close their VR wing. So, and then Chris Milk also had a Lincoln piece with Beck. Which was a multi camera 360, actually it was a flash video that they recorded to the DK1. And so that was, seeing that everyone was, saw the potential. The technology was still pretty rudimentary or crude even, we should say. Before any tracking cameras. But every year people learned from previous Sundances and other festivals. And we're seeing that Sundance kind of raises the bar every year. It's nice that it's in January because then there's all these other festivals that sort of follow through with either similar content, newer versions of content that's here, or people have just sort of learned from what is here. >> So I got to ask you. You know, obviously Sundance is known for pushing the boundaries. You see a lot of creative range. You see a lot of different stuff. And also you mentioned the VR. We've seen some failures, you've seen some successes, but that's growth. This market has to have some failures. Failures create opportunities to folks who are reiterating in that. What are some of the things that you can point to that are a positive? Things that have happened whether they're failures and/or successes, that folks can learn from? >> Well, I think that this year there's a lot more social VR. We're connecting people. Even though they're in the same space, they're able to be in this new virtual world together. There's something amazing about being able to interact with people in real life. But as soon as you have sort of a hyper reality where people are able to be experiencing a Sufi ritual together. Things that you wouldn't normally... That they're not possible in the real world. And also, I think that there's issues with lines too. Obviously every year, but the more that we can have larger experiences with multiple people, the more people we can get through. And then more impact we can make on the audience. It's really... We were in claim jumper last year. And we could only get one person in every 10 minutes. And that makes things pretty tricky. >> And what are you doing at Sundance this year? You've obviously got some stuff going on with some of the work you've done. What's your focus? >> So yeah we have a company called New Reality Company where we produce Giant and Tree. It's part of a trilogy where Breathe is going to be the third part. We're going to be completing that by the end of this year. And right now, I would say the best thing about Sundance is the projects, but also the people. Being able to come here, check in, meet new people, see partners that we've been working with in the past. Also new collaborations, everywhere you turn, there's amazing possibilities abound. >> I want to talk about empathy and social. I mentioned social's interesting in these trends. I want to go to Brooks Brown, who's got some really interesting work with Starbreeze and the Hero project. You know, being a pioneer, you've got to take a few arrows in your back, you've got to blow peoples' minds. You're doing some pretty amazing work. You're in the front lines as well. What's the experience that you're seeing? Talk about your project and its impact. >> Well for us, we set out with our partner's ink stories, Navid Khonsari, a wonderful creative, and his entire team to try to create that intensely personal experience kind of moving the opposite direction of these very much social things. The goal, ultimately being to try to put a person inside of an event rather than a game style situation where you have objective A, B, or C. Or a film that's a very, very hyper linear narrative. What is that sort of middle ground that VR itself has as unique medium? So we built out our entire piece. Deep 4D effects, everything is actually physically built out so you have that tactility as you walk around. Things react to you. We have smell, temperature, air movement, the audio provided by our partners at DTS is exceptional. And the goal is ultimately to see if we put you in a situation... I'm doing my best not to talk about what that situation is. It's pretty important to that. But to watch people react. And the core concept is would you be a hero? All over the world, every day people are going through horrific stuff. We're fortunate because we're the kind of people who, in order to experience, say a tragedy in Syria, we're fortunate that we have to go to Park City, Utah and go in virtual reality to experience something that is tragic, real, and deeply emotional. And so our goal is to put people through that and come out of it changed. Traumatized actually. So that way you have a little bit more empathy into the real world into the actual experiences they went through. >> And what's the goal? This is interesting because most of the some stuff you see, the sizzle out there is look at the beautiful vistas and the beaches and the peaks and you can almost be there. Now you're taking a different approach of putting people in situations that probe some emotional responses. >> Yeah. It's a big deal to us. The way Navid like to put it, and I'm going to steal this from him, is you see a great deal of people prototyping on hardware and all of these things, and it's great cause we need that. We need to be able to stand on the shoulders of those giants to be able to do these things. But you see very few people really prototyping what is the concept of story as per VR? We've been doing, at Starbreeze, we've been doing location based for some time now and I've been getting thousands upon thousands of pitches. And whenever you get a pitch, you can pretty much identify, oh you come from a film background, you come from a games background. There's very few people who come down that middle line and go, well this is what VR is supposed to be. This is that interesting thing that makes it very deeply unique. >> What's the confluence and what's the trend in your mind as this changes? Cause you mentioned that gamers have affinity towards VR. We were talking about that before we came on the panel. You know, pump someone in mainstream USA or around the world who does email, does work, may not be there, you're seeing this confluence. How is that culture shifting? How do you see that? Cause you're bringing a whole nother dimension. >> We're trying to go back to a little bit, something about this Sundance being a little bit different. I think in general in VR, you're seeing this sort of shift from a few years ago it was all potentiality. And I think a lot of us, the projects were great, but a lot of us who work in VR were like oh I see what they're trying to do. And people like my dad would be like I don't. I don't see what they're trying to do. But that is shifting. And you're seeing a larger shift into that actuality where we're not quite there yet where we can talk about the experiences every day Americans are going to have. What is the real ready player one that we're actually going to have existing. We're not there yet, but we're much closer every time. And we're starting to see a lot of these things that are pushing towards that. Final question before I go to some of the speeds and feeds questions I want to get with Intel and Dell on is what is the biggest impact that you're seeing with your project and VR in general that will have the most important consequences for societal impact? >> Well, we were fortunate yesterday we had a number of people come through Hero. And a number of them simply actually couldn't handle it. Had to come out. We had to pull people out. The moment we took the headset off, they were, tears were streaming down their face. There's a level of emotional impact VR is extremely able to cut through. It's not that you're playing a character. It's not that you're in a separate world. You are you inside of that space. And that is a dangerous but very promising ability of VR. >> Winslow, could you take a stab at that, I'd like to get your reaction to that because people are trying to figure out the societal impact in a positive way and potentially negative. >> Yeah I mean, so with that, whenever you traumatize somebody else or have the ability to possibly re-traumatize somebody... In Giant, we made sure that we gave them a trigger warning because yeah these things can be intensely intimate or personal for somebody who already has that sort of baggage with them or could be living in a similar experience. In Giant, we witnessed the last moments of a family. As they're convincing their daughter that the approaching bomb blast is a giant that actually wants to play with her. And so we put haptics in the chair so the audience was also surprised. But we let them know that it was going to be taking place in a conflict zone. So if that was something that they didn't want to participate in, that they could opt out. But again, like we didn't know... We had to go and buy tissues like right off the bat because people were crying in the headset. And that's kind of a... It's an interesting problem to have for the sake of what are sort of the rules around that? But also it makes it more difficult to get people through the experience in a timely fashion as well. But yeah, but we're seeing that as things become more real then there's also a chance to possibly impact people. It's the... >> So it's social for you? You see it as a social impact? >> Well, I mean if everyone's experiencing the same thing that can be social, but again if it's a one on one experience, it's sort of like up to the filmmaker to make sure that they have the scruples that they are playing by the rules. Cause there's right now most every piece of content is being released through Oculus, Steam, or Viveport. But there will be... It's heavily regulated right now, but as soon as there's other means of distributing the content, it could take a different sort of face. >> Certainly some exciting things to grab on, great stuff. I want to get to the commercial angle. Then we're going to talk more about the craft and the role of artistry in the creating side of it. Gary, you're the commercial VR expert at Dell. You're commercializing this. You're making the faster machines. We want faster everything. I mean everyone... Anyone who's in VR knows that all the graphics cards. They know the speeds and feeds. They're totally hardware nerds. What's going on? Where's the action? >> Okay, that's such a large question. I mean we've had some great stuff here that I also want to comment on as well. But inside the commercial side, then yeah everybody wants bigger, stronger, better, faster. And to Winslow's comment about the dog years, that really puts the pressure on us to continue that innovation and working with partners like Intel to get those faster processors in there. Get faster graphics cards in there so that we can get people more emotionally bought in. We can do better textures, we can get more immersion inside the content itself. We're working a lot around VR in terms of opening peoples' eyes for societal impact. So VR for good for instance. Where we're taking people to far flung corners of the Earth. We work with Nat Geo explorer Mike Libecki to show the plight of polar bears in Greenland and how they're gradually becoming extinct for an edutainment and a learning tool. The boundaries are really being pushed in entertainment and film. That's always been the case. Consumer has always really pushed that technology. Commercial's always been a bit of a lagger. They want stability in what's going on. But the creation that's going on here is absolutely fantastic. It's taken what is essentially a prosumer headset and then taking it into that commercial world and lit it up. 360 video, its very inception, people are using it for training inside of their businesses and so that's now going out into businesses now. We're starting to see advances in 360 video with more compute power needed. Where, to the point about immersion and getting people emotionally bought in. Then you can start doing volumetric, getting them in there. And then we're also working with people like Dr. Skip Rizzo who was on our panel yesterday where we're starting to go into, okay, we can treat PTSD. Help people with autism, through the medium of VR. So again, that buys into... >> These are disruptive use cases that are legit? >> Yeah. >> These are big time, market moving, helping people... >> Absolutely. And that where it becomes really, really powerful. Yes, we want our companies to embrace it. Companies are embracing it for training. But when you start seeing the healthcare implications and people crying inside of headsets. That's effecting you deeply, emotionally. If you can make that for good, and change somebody's trigger points inside of PTSD, and the autism side of helping somebody in interview techniques to be able to be more self sufficient, it's absolutely awesome. >> This is the new creative. So what's your take on the new creative? What's your definition? Cause you're talking about a big range of use cases beyond just film making and digital artistry. >> Yeah, absolutely so the new creative is like with all the great work that's here, people are looking at film and entertainment. Now the world really is the oyster for all the creatives out there. People are clamoring out for modelers, artists, story tellers, story experiencers to be able to use that inside their commercial environments to make their businesses more effective. But they're not going to have a 360 video production company inside of their commercial organization. And it's then leveraging all of the creative here and all of the great stuff here. Which is really going to help the whole world a lot. >> Lisa, I want to get your thoughts on this cause you guys at Intel here at the Tech Lounge have a variety of demos, but there's a range of pro and entry level tools that can get someone up and running quickly to pro. And so there's a creative range not only just for digital artistry, but also business we're hearing. So what's the... Cause AI's involved in a lot of this too though. It's not just AI, it's a lot of these things. What's the Intel take on this. >> Well I think it's really an interesting time for us at Intel because one of the things that we have that I think probably nobody else has. We have this amazing slate of products that really cover the end to end process. Both from the creation side of the house all the way to the consumption side. And we talk a lot about our processors. We worked on an amazing project, a couple of huge scenes inside of the Sansar environment. Which is a great tool for really democratizing the creation of spaces. It's a cloud hosted service but it utilizes this amazing client-server architecture. We created four huge spaces in a matter of eight weeks to launch at CES. And some of the technologies that Gary was referring to just in pure processing power like two generations old processors were taking three hours to render just a small portion of a model where our newest generation Core i9s with our opting technology took that time to 15 minutes. So when we think about what we can do now, and those technologies are going to be available in even portable laptop form factors. We've got the piece where we were working here SPHERES. They were able to actually make some corrections and some tweaks basically immediately without having to send them off to some render farm. They were able to do those things. And I know Winslow has talked about that as well. What does it mean to you to be able to react real time. And be able to do your creative craft where you are and then be able to share that so readily. And then you know... I just think that's kind of an amazing equalizer. It's really democratizing the creation process. >> Okay the next question that begs for everyone to address is where are we in this progression? Early? What work needs to get done? Where are we holding back? Is it speeds and feeds? Is it the software? Is it the routines, libraries, art? Where's the bottleneck? Why isn't it going faster? Or is it going faster? >> I would, and I'm sure the team would agree here, I would say that one of the key things is the creator tools themselves, right. They are still somewhat cumbersome. We were talking to another filmmaker. He was like I can't even, I have to play the whole piece from the beginning, I can't just go in and edit, you know change control, being able to collaborate on these pieces with other people. I mean, if you can collaborate in a real world space, you should be able to also collaborate in VR and have change control and all those sorts of things that are necessary to the iteration of a project. So we're trying to work with our software partners. They're all doing a really great job of trying to iterate that, but it's going to take some time. I mean I think that's probably the bigger thing that's holding everything back. We're going to be right there with the processing power and the other technologies that we bring to the table. OEM partners are going to be right there with the best devices. I really think it's something we've all got to push for as far as those tools getting better. >> Brooks, comment on anything? You're in the... >> So for me, the thing that's holding back VR in general is actually the art form itself. One of the great challenges, if you look back, at say the history of film... We're at Sundance, so it's probably fairly apropo. Very early on in the early movies, aside from penny arcade machines that you'd actually stare at, they were 10 minute almost like plays that people would go to almost a playhouse and they'd watch this thing. There were not cuts, there were no angles. It was a single wide shot. Great Train Robbery came around and there was this crazy thing they did called an edit. Where they spliced film together. And if you go back and you read, and they did these dolly shots. People will have no idea what they're watching. There's no way people will be able to follow that. Like people were not happy with it at the time. Now it's stuff that children do on their iMacs at home. They do iMacs all the time, they do it on their iPhones, on their Android devices. These are normal languages of film that we have. VR doesn't have that yet. And there's not a great deal of effort being made in that direction. There's people here doing that. So I'm kind of speaking in the middle of the group, but outside of these people, there's only a handful who are really doing that and it's a significant challenge. When people who are the mainstream consumer put on a VR headset, it needs to be more than just a magic trick where they go oh that's cool. And that tends to be the vast majority of experiences. So what is the thing that is going to make someone go oh I get why we have VR as a medium. And we're not there yet. We're in the direction, but that's >> So you mentioned earlier the point where you can tell if someone's from film or gaming or whatever when you talk to them about VR. Who is the future VR developer? Is it a filmmaker? Is it a gamer? Is it a digital artist? What is this evolving? >> It's a kid in his basement who no one knows and is screwing around with it and is going to do something that everyone thinks is stupid. Like, it's going to be that. Basically every major leap in gaming is kind of the same thing. It's when we understand how ludonarrative dissonance works inside of telling how people move around a space. It's about how we do Dutch angle suddenly in film. And these things get invented. It's going to be some kid who's just screwing around who doesn't have the baggage of the language of film. A lot of the people I know in VR have been fortunate to work in film, in games and interactive or web dev. So you come from a lot of places but someone's going to come along who has none of that baggage. And they're going to be... >> Well you guys are pioneers and you're doing it. So for the first person out there that's in their basement, that inspirational soundbite or comment. How can you guys talk to that person or that group? Because this is the democratization, this is what's happening. It's not the gatekeepers. It's real creatives out there that could come from anywhere. YouTube generation, Twitch generation, gaming. What would you say to that person to motivate them and to give them that passion? >> Well it's only going to get easier, faster, cheaper, all these things are happening. But again, yeah I totally agree with what Brooks said. It's really about the culture and about educating the audience and getting them up to speed. There are some VR experiences that as soon as they put on the headset, like somebody who's never done it before, immediately will take it off cause they'll get nauseated. And then there's people, like kids who are like jet fighters. They've seen everything. You could throw like a 30 frames per second experience at them and that doesn't even phase them. They can be, all of a sudden their worlds are changing and they're like bring it because they're ready for that. So I think it's sort of about raising the bar for what the audience is comfortable with, familiar with, educating the community. There's a lot of tools right now, you know with Unreal and Unity that allow people who have very little... They don't need to know C# or C++, they can get started in a lot of like visual. What you see is what you get. Being able to drag things into a virtual room. And the windows headsets that are out. They refer to them as mixed reality, but just even having the ability to flip up the screen and transition from the virtual world to the real world in milliseconds, it allows you to be able to create things more at the speed of thought instead of coming up with an idea, coding it, and making sure it works, and then eventually putting on the headset. The sooner that we can actually be ideating inside this virtual environment is when things will get really interesting. >> So the next question is to take to the next level is what's the playbook? How does someone get involved? How does someone ingratiate into a community? If I'm an artist, I want to get, and I'm proficient with technology, or maybe not, how do they get involved? Is it community driven? Is it social? You guys mentioned seeing social's a big trend here. How do people get involved? What's the track? >> Well yeah you don't just need to go to a grad school or... There's a lot of programs out there that are popping up. Almost every single major state school has like an interactive art program now. And that wasn't the case like two or three years ago. So we're seeing that that's a big shift in the culture. But again, VR is still... It's expensive and it's you know, like VR, I refer to it's in the stage of it's almost like in the neo geo phase, maybe a little before that. But it's the really expensive thing that your friend's neighbor has. Or his older brother or something. You get to play it a little bit, you're like that's great but there's no way in hell I'm going to... You know, I can't afford that or like that just doesn't really work with my lifestyle right now so it needs to incorporate itself into our everyday, our habits. And it needs to be something that... If we're all doing it then it makes sense for us to do it together not just somebody in their basement doing it by themselves. >> Yeah feel free to comment, this is a good topic. >> Oh yeah, absolutely. So what we're doing is sort of about democratization and accessibility. So for people to get into the then they're going to need a rig, they're going to need a headset and previously it's actually been quite expensive to actually take that first plunge into it. So now by democratizing and bringing price points down, it makes it more accessible. That helps content creators because there's now more of an audience that can now consume that content. And the people that can then play with the medium and consume it now have a better reason to do it. So we're working on that. We're also working on the education pieces like Key. It's actually going out there to schools and actually letting them experience VR and play with VR. Because it is a whole new different medium. We've seen film directors and filmmakers go into the VR space and things that worked in 2D film like fast pans and whatever else so the points have already been made don't really translate into VR without somebody losing their lunch. So it is going to be somebody who's coming up who hasn't got the baggage of previous skill sets inside of 2D doing it inside of VR. So we're going to see that. And in terms of the technology, everybody's wanting things to progress. That shows the level of excitement out there. And everybody wants to get into it. Everybody wants to see it go further. And I'm reminded of the mobile phone. Mobile phone, 30 years ago? Two suitcases for batteries, a large brick on the ear and a car antennae. Okay, so where we are now, if you had a time machine and you went back in time to talk to the inventor of the mobile phone, well, I'd be a lot richer because I know sports results and all, but that aside, but you go back and talk to them and you said do you know in 30 years time, everybody is going to be carrying that device? Everybody's going to be dependent on that device? They're going to get social anxiety and separation anxiety if they lose it. And they will probably laugh in your face. >> Alright so since you brought up the phone analogy, since I love that example, are we in the Blackberry moment of VR and no one yet has built the iPhone? Because the iPhone was the seminal moment for smartphones. And you see what happened there. Is VR needing that kind of break? Or is it there? >> I think we're on the cusp. Where we are at the moment with technology, we've had the headsets, which I say have been more in the consumer space, they've been designed to hit a certain price point. We had CES the other week where we've had advancements now in the resolutions of headset that are now coming out. One of the issues was well I can't see texts, I can't read texts. So from a working environment, if you're actually using tools that you would normally use on a 2D screen, you can now translate that and read that text. However, in terms of the tools that people use, why are we trying to put 2D screens into a VR headset? We've got a whole new way of interacting with data. We've got a whole new way of doing things that are going to be more intuitive than the mouse and keyboard interaction that we're used to. Why just translate that. Let's push that envelope and those are the developments that we're pushing our partners and our ISVs to really embrace. >> So it's an evoution. >> It's absolutely an evolution. >> You guys have any thoughts on that comment. That we have that inflection point, are we hitting that, will we see it soon, is it here? >> Well I think it's a very interesting symbiotic relationship between multiple factors. So you know, we hear the cost factor, we hear the technology factor, then we have the content factor. You know I saw an interesting evolution at CES we had created this virtual booth experience so that you could still come to the CES Intel booth without actually having to be there. And I met a guy in there and I was like hey where are you? He goes I've been in here like all week. (laughter) And I was like oh yeah, where do you live? He goes oh I'm in my basement in Nebraska. But he had just, this was Friday when I met him. He'd been in there all week, but in 2D mode. And he had gone out the night before and bought a headset just so he could come back and go in VR mode. And I think, yes, all these factors have to kind of line up, but I do think that content, those experiences that are going to keep people coming back for more. Like these guys literally kept coming back to our booth. Right, to see... >> Content gain. >> To see who was there. And to them at that point, it wasn't really a barrier of cost. It was like there is something that I want to consume therefore I am going to go get what I need to consume it. And I use the analogy of HDTV, right. When we kind of moved over that hump where there was enough content people didn't really care how much that television cost. >> Sports was great. Sports really highlighted HD. >> Yeah. >> But this is a good point. This is a good question to ask. Brooks, I'd love to get your thoughts. Content drives experiences, amazing experiences, but we're building the scaffolding of everything at the same time. So where are we, what's your opinion? >> So here on the Starbreeze side, we're fortunate because we have our own headset. We have the StarVR headset we've been building with Acer. 5K all of that stuff and we're upgrading it over the next year. Our focus has been, we skipped the consumer market very much. We went straight to location based and enterprise. And the reason we did that is because there's a promise of VR at a basic, I don't want to say technology stand point, but from an experience perspective, when it comes to that resolution, when it comes to that field of view, when it comes to these things people expect. Average consumers who go to a movie and they see these giant screens. They want that translated. They don't have the understanding like we do of well, LED panels are actually a pain in the ass to build and it takes a little bit and they flip at their own speeds. Time to photon is not a thing my dad will ever see in his life. But there's a reality that people have a need for that. And it is extremely expensive. It's again the reason we went straight to LBE. But for us it's about marrying the two and consistently trying to match what's happening. So when we're talking about, as I mentioned earlier the technology and how we're standing on the shoulders of giants very very quickly, someone who's doing technology is going to see what we're doing content wise and go well I can do that better technology wise. And then we're just going to keep leap frogging. And it's very similar to the phone in the same way that we're not at the final stage of the phone. Like we're at our stage of the phone and no doubt in 30 years people will laugh at us for carrying anything. The same way we laugh about the briefcases and the giant batteries in the cars we had to pull with us. So it's one of those things that's continually transitional. And VR's in an odd, amazing place. >> Well you know, it was a lot of waves that we've all seen. You mentioned the mobile phone, that's a good one to point to. It feels like the PC revolution to me because the same culture of entrepreneurs and pioneers come from a bunch of different backgrounds. So I'd like to get Brooks perspective and Winslow's perspective on this because I think there's an entrepreneurial culture out there right now that's just emerging very fast. It's not like your classic entrepreneur software developer. So in this movement, in this wave, the entrepreneur is the filmmaker, it could be the kid in the basement, could be the gamer. Those entrepreneurs are trying to find a path. >> Yeah, it's a weird mix. VR is at this odd point where not only is it the people who are wanting to be cutting edge in terms of content or technology, but also that first mover strategy from the business side of things. And so everyone wants to be those guys who are charging ahead because in reality, if you look at the financials around all of this, VR is one of those things that you don't want to finance. It's not nearly as safe as say Marvel Avengers or the next Call of Duty. >> You've got to be, you've got to hustle. >> Yeah you've got to hustle. You've got to make... >> What's your advice? >> Start doing it. That's really it. It's the same advice I used to give to game makers when people would be like well I want to learn how to make games. It's like go to YouTube, download a thing and go do it. There's literally no reason why you can't. >> Are there meetups or like the Homebrew Computer Club that spawned the Mac. >> There are, there are infinite groups of VR people who are more than happy to give you all the terrible and wonderful opinions that come with that. There's no shortage of people. There's no shortage and it's an amazingly helpful group. Because everyone wants someone else to figure out something so they can steal that and then figure out something else. >> Winslow, your advice to entrepreneurs out there that are young and/or 14 to 50, what should they do? Jump right in obviously is a good one. >> Well yeah, experiment, break things, that's really the only way to learn. I would say watch as much VR as you can because sometimes bad VR is the best VR. Because you can learn don't do that. And if you learn, if you put all that together, you can really... It's like this lexicon that you can really follow. Also, I think we... As people in tech, we kind of get obsessed with things like resolution, frame rate, and these are very important, but it's also good to remember, or at least for me, I watch some of the best experiences from storytelling when I was a kid, eight years old on a 12 inch screen that was 640 by 480. You know, like scan lines on the VHS. But for me the story still resonated and it's important to think of story first, but obviously it's a dance between the story and the technology. They kind of have to both organically work together. And if they don't, one thing in the story that doesn't work because the tech isn't supporting it, can throw you out of the experience. >> Other concern entrepreneurs might have is financing. How do I get someone to help me build it? And then doing relationships. Finding relationships that could... One plus one equals more than two, right. So how do you? >> You have to get really creative when it comes to funding right now. Unless you're doing location based, which also requires a certain amount of investment to get it up to a bar where you want to be showing it to people with all the haptic effects when it's heat, smell, vibration, stuff like that. You know, it's not cheap to develop. But as far as like working with film foundations, we're fortunate enough to be sponsored by Fledgling Fund and Chicken and Egg. But we also were able to get partnerships with people like Intel and NVidia. And also work with people who come from a traditional film background. There's not one way to successfully fund a project. There's a million. And that's why it's interesting that the technology's innovating, but also the market place is as well. >> One of the things I want to ask is as any new industry gets building, is cultures form early. DNA forms in the entrepreneurs, in the pioneers. And one of the big hottest topics in the creative world is inclusion and diversity. So what's the makeup of the culture of this new generation? Because democratization means everyone can participate, everyone's involved. What's the state of the community vis a vis diversity, inclusion, and the role of the actors in the community. >> Well I think it's important to understand that VR has a profound ability to place you in somebody else's shoes. The trick though is to make sure that those feel like they're your shoes. But I think that we're learning a lot more about story telling techniques and we're able to empower people that their voices you know were previously not heard. The tricky thing is being able to yeah, educate all different groups of people how to use the technology, but once they're enabled and empowered to do it, it's amazing what you can experience inside the headset. >> So VR can be an enabler for education, outreach, a variety of things? >> Yes, I mean the term empathy, empathy machine gets thrown around a lot. You could do a drinking game around it. For panels when people are talking about it. But it's important to know there is a truth to that. And it's, yeah the perspective shift from looking at a screen, a 16 by 9 screen where you can look away, then dissolving the screen and becoming that person. Becoming the director, the actor, the camera person, the editor. When you're in the first person perspective, there's so much more... It feels more personal and that's a really interesting angle that we're going to continue to explore. >> So you could walk in someone's shoes, literally? >> Yes, you literally can. You just have to make sure that you got a... The tracking system's proper or else you'll look like there's... It can be come a horror movie pretty quickly if your leg is behind your head. >> Lisa, your thoughts on this, I know it's important to you. >> Yeah, I mean I think it's fascinating because I've been in tech for a really long time. And seen many, many trends. I mean the first job I had at Intel I was a PC tech and as you can imagine as a female, I think there was one other tech female in the department at the time and I would get funny looks when I would show up with my bag. They were like hi can I help you? I'm like I'm not here to deliver coffee, I'm here to fix your computer, you know. So I've seen a lot of trends and it's super exciting to me to see so much diversity cross culture, cross country, I mean we're having... We had guys come in from all over the world. From even war torn, they've escaped their country just several years ago and they're coming and they're bringing all that creativity to the market. We're seeing very, very strong female contingent from the filmmaker perspective so it's this wonderful, wonderful just primordial soup of people that I think are growing their own voice and their own power. They're breaking molds as far as how you actually get content produced. Distribution is kind of crazy right now. I mean, how do you get it distributed? There's like so many different ways. But all of those things are so important to the evolutionary and biological process of this. Yes, we need to let it go and sometimes we're frustrated. We're like where's the standards? Where's the one ring to rule them all? Where there's not going to be one. And it's good for us that there's not right now. It's frustrating from a business perspective sometimes. You're like, I can't peanut butter myself around all of these places, but I think it's just a very unique time where so many people are... The technology is accessible, that means that so many creators can now bring their fresh voice to this space and it's just going to be fascinating to continue to watch. >> That's awesome. Well two more questions and I'll give you some time to think about the last one which is your perspective on Sundance, what's happening this year, your personal view of what you think's happening, what might happen during this year. But the question I have for you now is to go down the line. We'll start with Brooks here, and talk about the coolest thing that you're involved in right now. >> It actually has to be Hero. We're debuting it here at Sundance. We've been working on it and not talking about it for about nine months. And it's been very difficult. Again it's sacrosanct to the experience that you don't know literally what you're getting in to. And the emotional response has been essentially our goal, trying to find out how far can we take that. You actually being in a space, moving around, having that interactivity, doing what you would do. But it being your story and how deeply we can absolutely effect a human being. And again, watching people come out, it's one of those things, I've been doing game development, I've worked on films, I've done all kinds of stuff. And you usually get a chance when someone experiences something you've made, you walk up to them and you go so what'd you think? And that's not at all what we can do with ours. >> How has it impacted you, that reaction? >> Well, I personally suffer significant PTSD and I've had some traumas in my life. And so it's been incredibly powerful to be able to share these things with people. Share this emotion in a deeply profound, yet amazingly personal way. Which I'm amazingly fortunate to be able to be a part of it. >> Alright thanks for sharing. Coolest thing that's going on with you right now here at Sundance. >> Just the fact that I'm here at all. I mean, it's incredible right? Personally was able to be an advisor on the SPHERES project that is premiering here with Eliza McNitt. She's someone who was an Intel Science Fair winner back in high school and kind of came back to us. So just to see the evolution of an artist really from the beginning to the point where they've been able to come here to Sundance. I'm also very passionate about the work that we're doing with Sansar. I kind of consider myself one of the chief storytellers at Intel around Virtual reality and this new move into social where people are like well what's this game. I'm like, it's not a game. It's you are the game, you are the interactivity. You become the person that makes the space interesting. We're just really setting the scene for you. And there's so many... You know there's a lot of different people kind of chasing this be togetherness. But what we've been able to produce there. And just to be able to explore some of my own personal ideas has just been such a gift. Then to be working with guys like these on the panels and see what they're doing and just be in touch is really just an exciting time. >> John: Awesome. >> Probably what, other than the people on the projects, or the projects that are being shown here, we're working on our new project, which we would have loved to premiere here, but we did... Basically when you get in, you have two months to create a piece, so you have a demo and you have to finish it, so we're taking a little bit more time. This one's going to be about a year development cycle. It's called Breathe where we take you from where Giant left off, where, in Giant, the ceiling collapses on a family. They're in front of you. In this experience, we use a breathing apparatus to basically bring yourself back to life. And then you realize you're trapped under rubble and you remove the... We actually want to have physical objects on top of you that are going to be tracked. So you're moving rubble from you and you realize that you're a six year old girl. You're the survivor from Giant. And you get to witness what it's like to be a future refugee sort of in different key moments of her life that use breath. Whether it's a flirtatious moment, blowing a dandelion, seeing your own breath in snow as a drone shows you a message that your parents pre-recorded on your 18th birthday. This is all in the future, obviously, but every time you walk around an object, you actually grow 10 to 15 years older in the experience. As you get older, the world becomes smaller. And then we witness what's like for her last breath. From being six years old to being 90 years old. But it's a profound personal experience. >> John: That sounds cool, cool. Gary, coolest thing that you're involved in right now at Sundance. >> Wow. I could say it's all cool that would be a bit trite. They say if you enjoy what you do, is it really a job? And I'm lucky enough to be in that position. Because working with all these guys here and like people around the place, they're doing such great things that every day I wake up and I'm astounded of where the industry's going. In terms of what we're doing here at Sundance, then we're really starting to push those envelopes as well. I've been lucky enough to be involved with Dunkirk and Spider-Man: Homecoming. Like last year, so some great pieces there. And moving out into this year, we've got some other developments which I can't mention at this point, but we're showing things like AR and VR mashup. So we haven't talked much about augmented reality here. It's an evolutionary, it's not a replacement. Both can be used and we've started to really start to blend those two technologies now. So you can still see the outside world. Just touching on the commercial side, and health care's very big for me. That's where I think the really cool stuff is happening. Entertainment is great and that's really pushing the envelope and allowing us to then take it for the good of human kind. >> It happens everywhere, it's not just entertainment. >> Yeah absolutely. You start looking at MRI scans inside of VR or AR. Talking a patient through it so they can actually see exactly what you're talking about. You're now no longer pointing at flat things on a screen. You're now actually taking them through it. If you're using AR, you can actually judge the responses of the patient as for how they're reacting to the news. And effectively, inside of the VR, and what's really cool for me is seeing people's reaction to that content and to the entertainment content. >> That's awesome. Okay final question. This is a little bit of self serving because I'd like you to help me do my job at SiliconANGLE. If you were a reporter and you were going to report the most important stories happening this year at Sundance or really kind of what's really happening versus what's kind of being billed to be happening here. What's the story? What is the story this year at Sundance 2018 in your personal perspective? We'll go down the line and share your observations. >> Well, mine here, I'm a Sundance newbie. This is my first year of being here. I'm absolutely astounded by the community spirit that's around. I go to a lot of technical trade shows and technical presentations. People coming here with a willingness to learn. Wanting to learn from other people. It's been touched on already. It's the pool of knowledge that's available inside of Sundance that everybody that comes here can actually tap into to create better content, to learn not what to do as well as learn what to do. And I just think that's brilliant because in that community spirit, that's really going to help enable this industry quickly. >> John: Winslow, you've got some experience, what's your thoughts? >> Obviously, this Intel house, just a little plug for you Lisa. (laughter) Tech Lounge. We got that? Okay good. I mean, yeah, the people that's here. Every year we come here and see where the high water mark is. All these people are... Some of these teams first started with two people and then they grew to six and then by the end of it, there's 100 people working around the clock, pulling all-nighters to be able to give the latest and greatest of what's available with these current tools. So it's amazing because the work itself doesn't really mean anything until people get to experience it. So that's nice that they make a big splash. The people here are very attentive to it. It's a very nice audience and this will continue the momentum for future festivals throughout the year, but also will excite people that have never done VR before. People who have never been to Sundance before. We're seeing that there's a lot of new people. And that will continue to influence many years to come. >> John: So you think VR is the top story here being told? >> As far as like just to generalize, I would say last year kind of the big VR year. This is kind of the big AR year. Next year's going to be the AI year. Then after that we're going to start putting them all together. >> John: Great, great feedback. >> I think it's just exciting for Intel just to be back here. I think Intel hasn't been here in quite some time. Dell coming in here probably one of the breakout years for us to come back and really talk to creators what we're doing from the Intel Studios all the way through to the stuff you can take home and do at home. And I think coming in, we're coming back here with a purpose really, not just to be here to be seen. We're really here with real things and want to have real conversations on how tech can enable what people are doing. Not just from a brand perspective, but from a real hands on point of view. >> John: Yeah, some great demos too, phenomenal tech. >> Really just, yeah everything from the AI stuff we have to the social to the great new pieces that have been submitted here like we mentioned with SPHERES. So I think, yeah, it doesn't feel gratuitous to me you know that Dell or Intel is here this year. We've really come with a purpose. >> You guys are moving the needle, it's really awesome. We need more horsepower. >> Brooks, your thoughts on Sundance this year. Observation, the vibe, what would you tell your friend back home when you get back? >> If, for me, I think it's almost the non-story. It's like the opposite of a story. It's just the deep integration of VR into the normal Sundance flow I think has been interesting. Some people have been here for a few years. And back in the day when it was one or two, it was a lot of oh, you do VR? What's that then? Whereas now, you see a lot more people who are crossing over. Going to see documentaries, then they come to see a VR piece and it's just a part of the normal flow. And the team at New Frontier has done exceptional work to kind of make sure that they have this ridiculous high level of broad content for all kinds of people. All kinds of experiences, all high end things. But it's not that VR's here. Oh good, we have a VR section. It's a lot more of an integrated set up. And it's been really encouraging to see. >> Well you guys have been great. It's been very inspirational. Great information. You guys are reimagining the future and building it at the same time so entrepreneurially and also with content and technology. So thanks so much for sharing on this panel The New Creative. This is SiliconANGLE's coverage of Sundance 2018 here at the Intel Tech Lounge at the Sundance Film Festival. I'm John Furrier thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

extracting the signal from the noise it's the cube covering vmworld 2015 brought to you by vmware and its ecosystem sponsors now your host John furrier and Dave vellante okay welcome back everyone we are here live in San Francisco for vmworld 2015 SiliconANGLE media's the cube star flagship program we go out to the event and extract the students from noise i'm john furry the founders looking angle to of my coast and partner david lonte co-founder Wikibon calm slipping angles research are my next guess is sanjay poonen executive vice president general manager of vmware's end-user computing great to see you again welcome back to the cube John's pleasure to be here but I got to say one thing I'm waiting for the day when you have the tie and dave has the non-tidal I mean seriously you gotta quit that purple tile no I'm just getting a pleasure to be on your show I happy to wear tie but people would know it's phony baloney but I'm happy cape looks good d looks good in the neck but I'm California gotta be chillax a little bit here are you relaxed you feeling good I'm feeling great okay so you get a big body through your anniversary at vm work this month Wow excited to be here at the show so choice so give us the state of the union au CSAP to vmware now two years air wash huge acquisition we saw your an event you had here in San Francisco with all the top customers you have big name box big time player is working with you guys cloud needs a theme that you guys are really driving hard what's this all about where are we right now in your group and user computing is all the rage developer attraction and DevOps kind of connects the dots where are we with this yeah no I think it's been a fabulous two years we've hired a fantastic team I talked about this in my last show your some of the new people that joined us summative on Bob Jules no awasum were some of the people we promoted from within kit Kohlberg Eric Freiburg and then many of the people in the field we really really put together I think the best end-user computing team in the industry bar none it always starts to the people you know my people values where it's all started secondly we really started to innovate on product that differentiates us from the competition and made the bold move and mobile because mobile is the new desktop we joked internally that you could end user computing without a strategy you got that Josh yes yeah you know so that's in essence what we've done to be invisible and taking up the complexities away that's really the key will you yeah absolutely and making yourself relevant to where the world is going in this digitization of the workplace so we see this as a phenomenal opportunity for us to become the de facto brand in a Switzerland set of proposition you've got apple iOS you've got google android about windows microsoft OS 10 VMware's propositions via Switzerland type of company that can manage and secure all of those devices in very transparent fashion then lead and lead with that mobile story right I mean isn't that part of it yeah no absolutely mobile is the new desktop so it does become the key outcome the people are looking for and our proposition that we talked about last year working at the speed of life being able to go all the way from desktop to Tesla many of those things are really starting to resonate now as we talked to CIOs and so you know 10 at 2010 when we first did the cube six years ago Palmer its laid out the whole manifesto and user computing had a lot of disparate parts some of gods and have left explain to the folks out there and clarify the positioning of end-user computing visa V all the turmoil in the marketplace with customers cloud has got obviously hybrid cloud people I try to get their arms around that virtualization a lot of plumbing going on with SD and Isis and growth there a lot of stuff going on underneath your layer that's going to affect you how do you manage that clarify the positioning and then talk about how you respond to the growth that's going to come out of underneath you and the infrastructure yeah I think Paul Maritz had it right down he's one of the visionaries of our time and as he talked in 2010 that was around the time we actually coined the term workspaces the inwards 12 companies had coined the term mobile workspace and now many of those technologies are coming to bear so much of the demos that Paul actually noah was here at the time Steve Herod showed you know I'm actually sort of sitting on the shoulders of many of those giants in terms of driving this so the time has come now where the desktop virtualization market now is less costly and less complex so we've taken cost and complexity out and that's why now we're taking market share from Citrix and other players in that market in the mobile place we weren't moving fast enough we acquire the leader AirWatch in mobile security and we've now created an ecosystem out of that of the leading application providers that are all partnering at a Salesforce workday Adobe SI p everyone in the app space the telco providers players like a TMT vodafone singtel partnering with us and then the security players like palo alto networks of all embraced AirWatch and then we actually created some blue technologies that really bring the desktop and the mobile together like identity management identity as a service is becoming one of those very critical like critical items that's a life blood that ties desktop and mobile together because you're your device now becomes your second factor of authentication right you can use your fingerprint or retina scan all of these now really coming in a mature fashion so we're seeing huge growth out of particularly AirWatch side I think sixty percent last last quarter path to profitability I believe in 2016 no Pat's talking about it Carl's talking about at jonathan's talking about Joe Tucci's talk of everybody's talking about your business so what's driving that growth you just talked about that ecosystem that's got to be a lot of the leverage but maybe help us unpack deck wrote a little bit I think it has been and I'm biased so obviously next to VMware being acquired by emc one of the best acquisitions of modern you know last 18 months in enterprise software we were diligent just the same way EMC a treated VMware to be somewhat separate and independent we kept AirWatch fairly dependent for the first six months and gradually began the integration because there was a motion that Alain de Biron John Marshall had in the context the way they ran their what's that we did not want to break and then over time in the second half of last year in the first half of this year we began to get two parts of VMware that we do well in to play the value side of big deals so we start to participate in elas now where larger conversations with customers the big accounts the volume site are the transaction partners our channel partners 75,000 partners of VMware now have an opportunity to take this mobile solution as a door-opener the CIO but remember now we're bringing together horizon on the desktop site air watching the mobile side with glue types of technologies like identity so the proposition just got like one plus one equals like 111 and that's a huge often you mentioned he'll I mean huge year renewal year in 2016 so that's going to be a tailwind it cloud-based solution around one of the reasons with why I watch it was there with a leader in cloud-based mobile John and Alan were very smart and creating a cloud-based solution not to say that they can't deploy on premise but its cloud first so think Salesforce in a world where everyone else looks like a siebel so we were very astute basically saying we want to look at a way by which the subscription revenue starts to become a flywheel yeah so I want to ask you about business mobility that's a theme that you guys have been big big on your ace application configuration I think it's called or yeah happy creating for the enterprise you had Salesforce box cisco workday and a bunch of other partners showing nsx identity the hard stuff the stuff that you will think about i was there at the event and I want you to compare that visa V some news at hit today with apple and cisco partnering on iOS traffic and prioritizing traffic for iOS apps on cisco hardware yeah which is essentially deep packet inspection looking at the routes and giving them a fast lane if you will that seems to be the trend this consumerization where new Apple examples saying okay differentiate with apple stuff versus Android are the business people thinking about that that way are we looking at nsx innovating under the hood explain the consumerization of business mobility why that's relevant and how hard it is when some things that you guys are doing we coined the term john consumer simple meets and a prize secure and you hear about that more tomorrow in my keynote which i encourage all your viewers to come to tomorrow the clock at nine o'clock there's some very special in huge news hint at and little bit but let's bring that together because who is one of the best at consumers simplicity today Apple okay and we basically are Google and much of what they do too but we took basically a strong partnership with apple and dialed it further and and his apples talked about publicly they have a group of enterprise partners where one among a very few 30 40 50 that they're working with in the EMM space and we investigated meaning enterprise mobile manager okay guy and as we we did that we also then looked at all the apps players that were very key to this mobile cloud ecosystem box you know native people exactly these are folks who are building a cloud-based mobile set of applications and we signed all of them up to this need of integration called app config with enterprise that the device operating system vendors like Apple and Google and us invented now what's happening is you're starting to see that ecosystem getting stronger so actually it's awesome because the apps that were announced today in the cisco apple announcement were WebEx spark the same applications i build laughs and fig yes for so we actually copying you guys well no they actually joining the ecosystem so i think it's awesome when you have an IBM in the ecosystem of vmware in the ecosystem now is cisco on the ecosystem it's amazing there you know there's lots of players we partner with SI PE last you're gonna see us doing more with them so our goal is to ensure that the lead players whether it's an applications world whether it's the networking world what's the security world start plugging into appropriate platform I remember the proposition of vmware though is to be Switzerland so we have to build strong relationships with apple with Google and Microsoft Windows 10 because they're all viable ecosystems in the post-pc world well of course you want to be neutral because you want to have you know rising tide as you said but your announcement also highlighted box docusign was in their AT&T you talk about some cool things I can split outspent reports by having an iphone so the rant random example but the but it highlights a new way of doing things right but i thought i asked her the question those are cloud native companies mean box workday mean they were born in the cloud if you will but what about the enterprises that aren't they have a lot of legacy that's a problem right so it's not easy to be cloud- talk about the challenges there and the opportunities how you guys are addressed i love that word because the each side of that coin is a challenging the opportunity so when we go to traditional enterprises they have client server applications or all browser applications that they want us to real deployment and you'll hear my keynote tomorrow a very key phrase any application on any device so you've got a client-server application and old browser application or native mobile app we can deliver into any device you pick your device you've got a traditional windows laptop at in client a mac OS and Android and iOS or a tesla with running some kind of you know maybe android inside it we can deploy those applications on any device and that requires the combination the technology we have from a horizon and AirWatch so what do we do in those traditional applications we virtualize them we can either virtualize the desktop or the app and deploy them onto at incline we think john the future is thin client computing where you know your glass that you present on is going to be like the glass the Corning makes us projectable and this phone becomes your remote control into your entire life so I love this conversation because there's so much talk in this business Gardner has bimodal IT IDC has the third platform and and but what you just described is doesn't doesn't say old stuff over here and new stuff over there it says extend the client-server apps the 19-year old legacy apps and allow them to participate in this cloud native cloud native doesn't mean throw away the old stuff and start with a blank piece of paper I wonder if you could first of all do you agree with that and what if you could talk about that as a strategy it's a very important strategy because if you are a new company like an uber or Netflix you don't have legacy infrastructure you can start completely new on a cloud native all cloud apps but for the majority of global 2000 companies they have existing applications client-server primarily some running in all browsers ie8 ie9 and you've got to bring those apps to the new world so we see the world moving clearly to mobile and html5 long term but there's still going to be many of those applications 3d applications for example you go to many of our large manufacturing customers they've got jet engine parts or parts of various different manufacturing processes that are still not yet html5 or mobile apps so bringing those old world of apps to a Chromebook or to an iOS device is something we can magically do but for these native mobile apps you want to make it one touch so the benefit of what we had with app configures now with one-touch secured by air watch you can now automatically get access to Salesforce or DocuSign or box this is the best of both worlds for the new apps single touch easy seamless access those apps for the old world world of apps you can seamlessly virtualize them in other words abstract them and then send them over to the ecosystem is critical in all of this and and a lot of times we see this trend toward vertical integration we watch what Oracle's do and you see what Amazon's doing the e così i'm hearing the ecosystem is still vital to your strategy absolutely and the ecosystem takes various different forms the device operating system players the system integrators the security players people like Paul all tanks and then in this world apps players are really really important I talked last year about SI p we had many new apps in that and you know just a small little hint tomorrow at nine o'clock you're going to see a major ecosystem player on stage with us never in the history of the world I don't want to blow the cat out of the bag and I want every one of your viewers gonna be big my lap gonna be huge so you got to come there okay so ecosystem just real quick profitable good economics people making money how's that economics work yeah you know via MERS all about ecosystem right you go to the show floor and vmworld has got thousands including companies that compete with us what you got to do is ensure that you're open and you allow even competitors to integrate with you ok I've got competitors that I compete with in my part of the business they've got to integrate with vsphere vice versa I've got to make sure that I can play in a heterogeneous world with a variety of companies that might compete in the STD sea world and part of the magic of doing this is to ensure that the ecosystem is proliferating but you have some platform player that's what's made vm VMware successful 600,000 greatest infrastructure company balls out I have box again to wrap here so I have a final question then I have a final final question because I need to get two questions in first api api f occasion as a term that we've been kicking around the openstack cloud community coined by google's Craig mcluckie on the cube it's been kicking around but API making your api's available if you overdo it you could cause some problems but you're mentioning interacting with of all these apps your take on that and the second final final question is how do you view DevOps do you care you're looking down at it saying go faster or you're agnostic what are you guys doing specifically around this API ification trend yeah i mean the devops in particular they're both of a related questions let me cover them in sort of a quick sequence everything that we should do as a platform you're a platform if you create a service-oriented architecture that allows others to plug into you so when we talk about app config for the enterprise part of what we did was created an API set with the device operating system players like Apple Google is an open it's an open standard that all EMS can can embrace and now then we natively integrate sales force or workday or essay p into that so the api's are absolutely important in every layer of vmware whether it's the desktop side was the mobile side with its SDDC we live by those principle as a platform company no doubt then as you think about DevOps there's aspects of now the management complexity in the cloud world that needs rethought because this isn't systems management the old way in which the client-server were looked at it DevOps really has a very key way which you can go from tested Evra production where you've got multiple clouds you've got federated clouds and we've got to make sure and this is something that we use internally a lot of our AirWatch solutions that are deployed because they're cloud first have DevOps built into them build an integration built between AirWatch and the management tools of vmware their customers who asked us to integrate in the service now this whole management platform the next generation mobile cloud management platform is going to have DevOps at the key at the heart of it and we think that's a huge opportunity for VMware and for our ecosystem so yes or no question senior management's behind DevOps we are absolutely behind everything that drives in the ecosystem DevOps is one key part of it but there are many other aspects this is one key part where the management platform is going and we're very very committed to making that I know you got to run to your meeting thanks so much Sanjay put in the general man and your EVP of then use a computer big announcement tomorrow watch his keynote tomorrow at 9am I nair on SiliconANGLE TV the cube is going to be covering all the keynotes then keep watching we'll be right back more with live coverage from San Francisco vmworld 2015 this is the cube with John fair and Dave vellante we'll be right back thanks John