>> Live from Barcelona, Spain, It's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon + CloudNativeCon Europe 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, to theCUBE coverage here at KubeCon + CloudNativeCon. I'm Stu Miniman, my co-host is Corey Quinn. And happy to welcome back to the program Mark Shuttleworth who os the CEO of Canonical. Of course, the orange shirts of Ubuntu, are seen all throughout the show. Mark, thank you so much for joining us, great so see you. >> Great to see you. >> All right, so for years, actually, we've had these conversations at the OpenStack Summit. It's interesting that, every time you mention it around this show you get snark online, as like, it is dead, Kubernetes killed it and it's like wait, no, no, you know we're talking about, a couple of open-source projects. I've been talking to people, especially in the telco space, that's like, oh yeah, well no, we just run OpenStack underneath and Kubernetes on top and put all things together. Give us a little bit of your broad view of some of these big trends, and open-source monoliths and microservices and all these pieces, all kind of fly together. >> Yeah, I think if your in the Reddit SubChannels, then you know it can feel a bit like turf war, and gangster-type, free software riffing, right. But the reality is, OpenStack solves business problems for people. They want large scale, virtualized infrastructure, that's cheaper than VMware. We are deploying OpenStacks in enterprise environments at double the scale and double the speed, in other words, like twice as many every month, as we were a year ago. I think people have gotten comfortable with the idea that Kubernetes is an application operations construct. I think we will see virtualization blur into the Kubernetes lives, but mainly for security reasons. So I want deeper isolation of applications that come from third-party vendors, for example. And I'm willing to trade performance for isolation, in circumstances where I am bringing in third-party code into my private infrastructure. After we see a couple of significant security compromises, I mean, we saw the GitHub compromise. If you shave that Yak, it gets to a very uncomfortable place of, what are we actually running as root all over our data centers with Docker and Docker Hub. So, people are going to want that kind of isolation of containers, the Kata Containers work is going to bring that. But that's very different to the proposition of, essentially, give me large scale, machine virtualization which OpenStack addresses. OpenStack hasn't done itself any favors, don't need to go into that here. But nonetheless, as far as we're concerned, it's straight forward to deliver large scale, low cost, enterprise virtualization infrastructure for telco's or IT use cases. >> Let's get into this ecosystem here. I want to say the Cloud Native ecosystem, and I say that specifically because there are some that look at this and they say, oh, there's dozens of projects now, Kubernetes is a platform against platform. Somebody even mentioned the word big tent once. We've seen some projects merging, we've seen some various pieces. >> I saw making a bigger tent on the keynote and I was like, not my favorite choice of words. >> I seem to remember a certain article that you wrote poking a whole in the big tent thing. What's the same, what's different? What's your take on this? Is it an ecosystem? Is it Kubernetes and friends, as Corey has liked to say here? What's your take? >> Look, I think we're still trying to figure out what are the appropriate labels to attach to this kind of forum, it is a forum, right. There is a tremendous amount of value attached to being here, to the ideas that are getting bounced about. But I wouldn't call it a simple community in the sort of, traditional open-source sense. The reality is there's very serious money behind every, sort of project that's been framed as a community project. This is a new kind of consortium. And that brings with it certain, delicate, political posturing and so on. But, nonetheless, it's a valuable place to be. It's definitely staking out important concepts and operational platforms, ideas, regimes, whatever you want to call it. This is going to be a fun week. >> I started off my career in the Linux world as a grumpy Unix administrator because there really wasn't any other kind. Then I started dipping my toes into the Linux world and something struck me, almost immediately, about Ubuntu. Was how welcoming everyone was in the community. There was no such thing as a stupid question. I asked the kind of questions you would expect from someone working on a computer, wearing a suit. People were very eager to embrace newcomers into that. It was one of the absolute best things that I saw coming out of Canonical, in addition to the software itself. I love that you're here as a part of this. What is the larger picture? What do you see in the Cloud Native ecosystem that's resonating with what Canonical's doing? >> So, the big thing that we do is, essentially, try to figure out where, what's possible with open-source that's hard to do. And then make it really straight forward so that more people can do the important stuff easily. That doesn't stop people from doing all the crazy stuff at the periphery that you can do with Ubuntu. It's generally easier with Ubuntu than any other platform. But we try to make the really most important things really easy for everybody. That's the first thing. The second thing is, we're a little non-judgemental about the fact that there are different perspectives on the same stuff. In the Ubuntu ecosystem, we make a point of saying that GNOME guys, and the KDE guys, and the LXQt, and the MATE guys. The Ubuntu ecosystem is where they actually meet to hash out how they can do stuff in a way that means users get a real choice between those. There's a very similar role for us to play in an environment like this. It's kind of acronym soup out there. Like 50 new projects every KubeCon. They're all interesting, they're all important, there's a lot of overlap between them. There's work for us to do in figuring out which ones are going to be really more important in the tent. We did that very effectively with OpenStack. The people who rode the OpenStack wave with us haven't had to abandon their OpenStacks. Because the stuff that we really chose to make central and easy, turned out to be the stuff that was the important poles in the tent. And we'll do exactly the same stuff here with Kubernetes. So, to put that into context, it's been real fun to be on the booth. We had, just tons, of people coming up and saying thank you for Microk8s. Microk8s is a single package of Kubernetes, that works in lots Linux distributions. It gives you, in about a minute, it gives you a standard Kubernetes environment, that's pure upstream. That, for a developer, just let's you get productive immediately. Figure out these new development application operations, constructs. You can use it on an airplane, you can use it on a train. Of course, it's compatible with all of the public clouds so that's the second thing that we're doing. We work with Amazon, with the EKS team, I spoke at their event on Monday. We work with Azure, the AKS team, we work with Google, we work with Oracle, we work with IBM. Essentially making sure that all of them offer Ubuntu worker nodes for their Kubernetes, SaaS offerings. That means that the developer who's doing stuff on their workstation with Microk8s can take those containers straight to any other public clouds. So, we're not trying to force people to use a particular solution, we're saying, in all of those environments, there are going to be choices people have. We want to make that as easy as possible for them. We want to avoid unnecessary friction in that process. That kind of underlining culture is coming through in this forum, as well. >> We've had many conversations about how you've always tried to make the job of that developer really easy. One of the things we always look at on this show is how much of it is the infrastructure people, or the platform underneath and the developer, and how much are they coming together. Anything different about this ecosystem? >> Very much so, yeah. >> Or your customers here that you can share? >> Kubernetes is an application construct. You can think of it as a next generation message bus. It's how components of an application find each other, communicate with each other, essentially, coordinate with each other. That makes it very tightly woven in to the developer experience. By contrast, you can be sitting writing a Java application inside a bank and not know or care whether it's going to be running on a physical machine, a virtual machine or an OpenStack cloud. You just don't know, you don't care. It's too far away from the application. Kubernetes is right there. I think that's one of the really interesting things is that it's bringing those infrastructure brains together with the application, app dev brains, in a very interesting way. It's going to be challenging. I wouldn't underestimate it, there are a lot of people, sort of, wondering around here, feeling a little confused, but that's okay. Do you know what I mean, the stuff shakes out. >> So, something that's been a recurring theme here has been the idea of going in a multi-cloud direction. Where people are talking about wanting to build workloads that they can seamlessly deploy across different providers. People talk about that, periodically, as a strategic goal but I'm not seeing people do it very often in the real world. You're in a much better position than a lot of us, to see that. Is that something you're seeing people moving towards as an adoption? >> Well, yes. Because we work with all of the major public clouds to optimize Ubuntu there, in a way that I don't think any other Linux does. You get an optimized Amazon Ubuntu on Amazon. You get an optimized Azure Ubuntu on Azure, and so on. >> Going very deep in the Amazon ecosystem. Most of my customers are using Ubuntu far ahead of anything else out there. >> That's right. >> And it's the right answer for what they're doing. >> That's right. It gives them, essentially, the best of what Amazon's offering, it still gives them the ability to feel like if they want to go somewhere else, they can. And that actually works well for Amazon. In the early days, I think there was a little tension between us and the cloud guys, because they were saying, look, if people use Ubuntu then they can go somewhere else. Yes, but in a sense, that makes them more likely to be more relaxed about starting wherever they choose to start. We don't advise enterprises as to which cloud to use. We advise them to engage with those clouds and figure out their differences, they are different. Amazon's really good at some things that are different, to what Microsoft is good at. Oracle is really good at some things which are different too. And what we're starting to see is the level of maturity in the enterprise governance process. They know they want to work with multiple clouds. They initially thought that was a straight kind of commodity exchange, competition thing. They now realize that it's a bit richer than that. That there are actually business reasons to have deeper relationships with particular clouds, based on what those clouds are prioritizing, and what they are prioritizing. So, we're not going to say you should use this cloud, you should use that cloud. Obviously, we can draw a distinction between the clouds where we're deeply engaged and the clouds where, you know, where you just don't have the benefit of that. But, more importantly we can say, you know, here are the set of practices that you can adopt internally that will give you comfort that your getting the best out of those clouds, the ones that you've chosen. And you have the portability that you really need. The key turns out be, enabling your developers, to use multiple clouds and challenging the developers to do different phases of the development life cycle on different clouds. Develop on your private cloud or your work station, use Microk8s, for example. Do tests on one cloud. Do staging and production on a different cloud. Now you already know that that whole, seamless ecosystem works. If you want to go use a high value, proprietary function, effectively on a cloud, that's a business decision and it's not a bad business decision. There's some spectacular capabilities from Amazon that are unique to Amazon. Or from Microsoft that are unique, or from Oracle that are unique to Oracle. They're spectacular. Those are business decisions to use them. There's other stuff that effectively you can give yourself optionality on. I wouldn't be black and white about that, put yourself in a position to make smart choices. And our best customers are getting are getting there. PayPal, they're operating on Ubuntu in a very sophisticated way, across multiple public clouds and private infrastructure. >> All right, so Mark we're five years into Kubernetes now. We've seen adoption grow, people feel there's a certain level of maturity here. There's always that concern that we've reached that peak and we're about to fall off the cliff. What do we need to worry about? What does the ecosystem need to do to make sure we continue along the stability and security that customers are looking for. >> There will be an over shoot regardless. I don't think there's any sort of leadership or governance approach that could avoid that. It's a little bit like, if your stock is going crazy. On the one hand, you're kind of happy. On the other hand, if you feel it's over valued it's a difficult sort of thing to say. You need to say, guys, you know what I mean, we're humans too. We've got our challenges to work through. And no one likes volatility, but too a certain extent, there's always speculation and over shoot, and over-enthusiasm, and hype. Kubernetes will over shoot. There's a bunch of emperors walking around here that, frankly, have no clothes. My job, our job, is very calmly, to sort through the wheat from the chaff. Make sure that it's possible for people to experiment with everything. But, that the stuff that we think has legs, effectively, is nicely integrated for people, that they have that for the long term, they won't regret things. We have a good track record of doing that. We've done it in the Linux desktop. We did it in OpenStack, we're doing it in public cloud. We've done it here in the Cloud Native world. I'd say things like AI are going in the same direction. Again, tons of complexity, tons of new options. Helping people effectively navigate through that is what we do very well. >> Yeah, one of the questions that I started to see as well, as we look at the way that these technologies continue to evolve, has been that, for better or worse, when developers are writing applications now and even infrastructure people are working with a lot of the things they care about. What operating system, let alone what distribution they're using, is increasingly slipping beneath the waves. People don't think about that as a primary area of focus anymore. And as, I guess, of the foundational Linux vendors in this space, how are you seeing that evolving? And how does Canonical remain relevant in a world where suddenly, people in a serverless future, I just throw some code over somewhere else and it runs is the limit of where most companies get involved. >> Yes, of course, we can point to the servers. And on the servers, we can point to the operating systems and inside the containers, we can point to the operating systems and underneath the serverless code, we can point to the language runtimes. So, the reality is that those things matter less and less to the developer. >> Yes. >> They still matter to the institution. So, I'm super comfortable with the language that says, the OS doesn't matter. What it means is that that whole tangle is getting professionalized and abstracted. But to be confident in the abstractions, someone needs to do a lot of work. I know how much work we do with Google, with Amazon, with Microsoft, with Oracle, with IBM, to make sure that nobody else has to feel like the OS matters. That that stuff essentially just works. You can extend that out to what we do with VMware, what we do, essentially, on bare-metal, what we do on developer workstations, what we do with the Windows crowd, effectively, and Windows subsystem for Linux, so that developers really can just build on Windows subsystem for Linux, Ubuntu, effectively, and ship that container straight to Amazon EKS and have it just work. There are a ton of little lies that have to line up. Containers are all kind of a fiction. The fiction breaks if those pieces don't line up. So, being Ubuntu, effectively and being being able to be consistent in all of those places, is a ton of work to enable it not to matter for anybody upstairs. That's allowing developers to go faster. It's allowing them to be more productive. It's allowing them to be more heroic. And it's allowing the people who do worry about the middleware to have far fewer nights scratching their heads as to, why didn't this version of this library tie up to that driver with that kernel. All of those things are still there. When you drop that container onto Amazon, we've got to connect the GPGPU in the hardware, through the hypervisor, to the guest OS, up into the container. And there's code getting injected all the way up. It's only the fact that we can typically have Ubuntu everywhere there that, essentially, allows those pieces to line up without some spectacular fireworks. It satisfies me when people say they don't have to worry about that. >> It's a victory condition. >> Mark, I want to give you the final word. What should we be looking for, from Canonical, through the rest of the year? >> So, for us, this has been a big year in terms of visibility in the enterprise. In terms of penetration, Ubuntu's everywhere in the Fortune 500, everywhere in the Global 2000. What's changed this year, is the CIO suddenly is seeing Ubuntu on their desk. For two reasons, one is IBM Red Hat. The CIO suddenly wants to know, okay, what does this mean? What else are we running? Where else can we get 24/7 SLAs? Where else can we get long term commitments to Linux and so on? And the fact is Ubuntu's already in the building so that's one, sort of, easy connect. The other thing is, there's really interesting, new workloads that Ubuntu leads in the enterprise. Obviously the container story, the multi-cloud story, edge. It's not just telcos. Every retailer, every logistics company, anybody that has physical distribution is now trying to say, well how can I automate compute in my physical world, effectively. So, edge is super interesting and IoT beyond that. People transforming businesses through taking a Raspberry Pi with Ubuntu and putting a snap on it is really, really cool. Which of those is going to drive the biggest headlines or the scariest headlines, I can't tell you. We're just trying to take care of security, performance and operations across all of them. >> All right, well, Mark Shuttleworth, always a pleasure to catch up, thank you so much for the updates. >> Great to see you. >> All right, for Corey Quinn, I'm Stu Miniman. We'll be back with lots more coverage here from KubeCon + CloudNativeCon 2019 in Barcelona, Spain. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

(soft electronic music) >> Announcer: Live from Vancouver, Canada, it's theCUBE. Covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation, and it's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman here with my cohost John Troyer and you're watching theCUBE's exclusive coverage of OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. Happy to welcome you back to the program, off the keynote stage this morning, Mark Shuttleworth, the founder of Canonical. Thank you so much for joining us. >> Stu, thanks for the invitation. >> Alright, so you've been involved in this OpenStack stuff for quite a bit. >> Right, since the beginning. >> I remember three years ago we were down in the other hall talking about the maturity of the platform. I think three years ago, it was like this container thing was kind of new and the basic infrastructure stuff was starting to get, in a nice term, boring. Because that meant we could go about business and be on the buzz of there's this cool new thing and we're going to kill Amazon, kill VMware, whatever else things that people thought that had a misconceived notion. So bring us forward to where we are 2018, what you're hearing from customers as you look at OpenStack and this community. >> Well, I think you pretty much called it. OpenStack very much now is about solving a real business problem, which is the automation of the data center and the cost parody of private data centers with public data centers. So I think we're at a time now where people understand the public cloud is a really good thing. It's great that you have these giant companies dueling it out to deliver better quality infrastructure at a better price. But then at the same time, having your own private infrastructure that runs cost-effectively is important. And OpenStack really is the only approach to that that exists today. And it's important to us that the conversation is increasingly about what we think really matters, which is the economics of owning it, the economics of running it, and how people can essentially keep that in line with what they get from the public cloud providers. >> Yeah, one of the barometers I use for vendors these days is in this multi-cloud world, where do you sit? Do you play with the HyperScalers? Are you a public cloud denier? Or, like most people you're, most people are somewhere in-between. In your keynote this morning, you were talking a bit about all of the HyperScalers that use your products as well as-- >> Ubuntu is at the heart of all of the major public cloud operations at multiple levels. So we see them as great drivers of innovation, great drivers of exposure of Ubuntu into the enterprise. We're still, by far, the number one platform used in public cloud by enterprises. It's hard to argue that public cloud is testing Dev now. It really, really isn't and so most of that is still Ubuntu. And now we're seeing that pendulum swing, all of those best practices, that consumption of Ubuntu, that understanding of what a leaner, meaner Enterprise Linux looks like. Bringing that back to the data center is exciting. For us, it's an opportunity to help enterprises rethink the data center to make it fully automated from the ground up. OpenStack is part of that, Kubernetes is part of that and now the cherry on top is really AI where people understand they have to be able to do it on public cloud, on private infrastructure and at the Edge. >> Mark, I wanted to talk about open source. Marketing open source, for a minute. We are obviously here, we're part of an open source community. Open source, defacto, has won the cloud technology stack wars. So there's one way of selling OpenStack where you pound on open a lot. >> I'm always a bit nervous about projects that put open. It sounds like they're sort of trying to gloss over something or wash over something or prove a point. They shouldn't have to. >> There's one about the philosophy of open source, which certainly has to stay there, right. Because that's what drove the innovation but I was kind of impressed about on the stage today, you talked about the benefits. You didn't say, well the venture's open. You said, well, we're facilitating these benefits. Speed to market, cost, et cetera. Can you talk about your approach, Canonical's approach to talking about this open source product in terms of its benefits? >> Sure, look, open source is a license. Under that license, there's room for a huge spectrum of interest and opinions and approaches. And I'd say that I certainly see an enormous amount of value in what I would call the passion-based open source story. Now, OpenStack is not that. It's too big, too complicated, to be one person's deep passion. It really isn't. But there's still a ton of innovation that happens in our world, across the full spectrum of what we see with open source, which is really experts trying to do something beautiful and elegant. And I still think that's really important in open source. You also have a new kind of dimension, which is almost like industrial trench warfare with open source. Which is huge organizations leveraging effectively their ability go get something widespread, widely adopted, quickly and efficiently by essentially publishing it as open source. And often, people get confused between these two ends of the spectrum. There's a bunch in between. What I like about OpenStack is that I think it's over the industrial trench warfare phase. You know, you just don't see a ton of people showing up here to throw parties and prove to everyone how cool they are. They've moved on to other open source projects. The people who are here are people who essentially have the real problem of I want to automate my data center, I want to have, essentially, a cloud that runs cost-effectively in my data center that I can use as part of a multi-cloud strategy. And so now I think we're in to that sort of, a more mature place with OpenStack. We're not either sort of artisan or craftsmen oriented, nor are we a guns blazing brand oriented. It's kind of now just solving the problems. >> Mark, there's still some nay-sayers out in the marketplace. Either they say that this never matured, there's a certain analyst firm that put out a report a couple of months ago that, it kind of denigrated what's happening here. And then there's others that, as you said, off chasing that next big wave of open source. What are you hearing from your customers? You've got a good footprint around the globe. >> So that report is nonsense, for a start. They're always wrong, right. If they're hyping something, they're wrong and if they're dissing something then they're usually wrong too. >> Stu: They have a cycle for that, I believe. (chuckling) >> Exactly. Selling gold at the barroom. Here's how I see it. I think that enterprises have a real problem, which is how do they create private cloud infrastructure. OpenStack had a real problem in that it had too many opinions, too many promises. Essentially a governing structure not a leadership structure. Our position on this has always been focus on the stuff that is really necessary. There was a ton of nonsense in OpenStack and that stuff is all failing. And so what? It was never essential to the mission. The mission is stand up a data center in an automated way, provide it, essentially, as resources, as a service to everybody who you think is authorized to be there, effectively. Segment and operate that efficiently. There's only a small part of OpenStack that was ever really focused on that. That's the stuff that's succeeding, that's the stuff we deliver. That's the stuff, we think very carefully about how to automate it so that, essentially, anybody can consume it at reasonable prices. Now, we have learned that it's better for us to do the operations almost. It's better for us actually to take it to people as a solution, say look, explain your requirements to us then let us architect that cloud with you then let us build that cloud then let us operate that cloud. Until it's all stable and the economics are good, then you can take over. I think what we have seen is that you ask every single different company to build OpenStack, they will make a bunch of mistakes and then they'll say OpenStack is the problem. OpenStack's not the problem. Because we do it again and again and again, because we do it in many different data centers, because we do it with many different industries, we're able to essentially put it on rails. When you consume OpenStack that way it's super cheap. These aren't my numbers, analysts have studied the costs of public infrastructure, the cost of the established, incumbent enterprise, virtualization solutions and so on. And they found that when you consume OpenStack from Canonical it is much, much cheaper than any of your other options in your own private data center. And I think that's a success that OpenStack should be proud of. >> Alright, you've always done a good job at poking at some of the discussions happening in the industry. I wouldn't say I was surprised but you were highlighting AI as something that was showing a lot of promise. People have been a little hot and cold depending on what part of the market you're at. Tell us about AI and I'd love to hear your thoughts in general. Kubernetes, Serverless, and ask you to talk about some of those new trends that are out there. >> Sure, the big problem with data science was always finding the right person to ask the right question. So you could get all the data in the world in a data lake but now you have to hire somebody who instinctively has to ask the right question that you can test out of that data. And that's a really hard problem. What machine learning does is kind of inverts the problem. It says, well, why don't we put all that data through a pattern matching system and then we'll end up with something that reflects the underlying patterns, even if we don't know what they are. Now, we can essentially say if you saw this, what would you expect? And that turns out to be a very powerful way to deal with huge amounts of data that, previously, you had to kind of have this magical intuition to kind of get to the bottom of. So I think machine learning is real, it's valuable in almost every industry, and the challenges now are really about standardizing underlying operations so that the people who focus on the business problems can, essentially, use them. So that's really what I wanted to show today is us working with, in that case it was Google, but you can generalize that. To standardize the experience for an institution who wants to hire developers, have them effectively build machine-driven models if they can then put those into production. There's a bunch of stuff I didn't show that's interesting. For example, you really want to take the learnings from machine-learning and you want to put those at the Edge. You want to react to what's happening as close to where it's happening as possible. So there's a bunch of stuff that we're working on with various companies. It's all about taking that AI outcome right to the Edge, to IOT, to Edge Cloud but we don't have time to get in to all of that today. >> Yeah, and Ubuntu is at the Edge, on the mobile platform. >> So we're in a great position that we're on the Cloud. Now you see what we're doing in the data center for enterprises, effectively recrafting the data center has a much leaner, more automated machine. Really driving down the cost of the data center. And yes, we're on the higher-end things. We're never going to be on the LightBulb. We're a full general-purpose operating system. But you can run Ubuntu on a $10 board now and that means that people are taking it everywhere. Amazon, for example, put Ubuntu on the DeepLens so that's a great example of AI at the edge. It's super exciting. >> So the Kubernetes, Serverless-type applications, what are your thinkings around there? >> Serverless is a lovely way to think about the flow of code in a distributed system. It's a really nice way to solve certain problems. What we haven't yet seen is we haven't seen a Serverless framework that you can port. We've seen great Serverless experiences being built inside the various public clouds but there's nothing consistent about them. Everything that you invest in a particular place is very useful there but you can't imagine taking that anywhere else. I think that's fine. >> Stu: Today's primarily Lando. >> And I think the other clouds have done a credible job of getting there quickly. But kudos to Amazon for kind of pioneering that. I do think we'll see generalized Serverless, it just doesn't exist at the moment and as soon as it does we'll be itching to get it into people's hands. >> Okay, yeah? >> Well, I just wanted to pull out something that you had said in case people miss it, you talked about managed OpenStack. And that, I think, managed Kubernetes has been a trend over the last year. Managed OpenStack now. Has been trans-- >> With these complex pieces of infrastructure, you could easily drown in learning it all and if you're only ever going to do one, maybe it makes sense to have somebody else do it for a while. You can always take it over later. So we're unusual in that we will essentially standup something complex like an OpenStack or a Kubernetes, operate it as long as people want and then train them to take over. So we're not exclusively managed and we're not exclusively arms-length. We're happy to start the one way and then hand over. >> I think that's an important development, though, that's been developing as the systems get more complicated. One UNIX admin needs a whole new skill set or broader skill set now that we're orchestrating a whole cloud so that's, I think that's great. And that's interesting. Anything else you're looking forward to, in terms of operation models. I guess we've said, Ubuntu everywhere from the edge to the center and now managed, as well. Anything else we're looking at in terms of operators should be looking at? >> Well, I think it just is going to stay sort of murky for a while simply because each different group inside a large institution has a boundary of their authority and to them, that's the edge. (chuckling) And so the term is heavily overloaded. But I would say, ultimately, there are a couple of underlying problems that have to be solved and if you look at the reference architectures that the various large institutions are putting out, they all show you how they're trying to attack these patterns using Ubuntu. One is physical provisioning. The one thing that's true with every Edge deployment is there are no humans there. So you can't kind of Band-Aid over the idea that when something breaks you need to completely be able to reset it from the ground up. So MAAS, Middle as a Service, shows up in the reference architectures from AT&T and from SoftBank and from Dorich Telecom and a bunch of others because it solves their problem. It's the smallest piece of software you can use to take one server or 10 servers or 100 servers and just reflash them with Windows or CentOS or whatever you need. That's one thing. The other thing that I think is consistently true in all these different H-Cloud permutations or combinations is that overhead's really toxic. If you need three nodes of overhead for a hundred node OpenStack, it's 3%. For a thousand node OpenStack, it's .3%. It's nothing, you won't notice it. If you need three nodes of OpenStack for a nine node Edge Cloud, well then that's 30% of your infrastructure costs. So really thinking through how to get the overhead down is kind of a key for us. And all the projects with telcos in particular that we're working, that's really what we bring is that underlying understanding and some of those really lightweight tools to solve those problems. On top of that, they're all different, right. Kubenetes here, Lixti there, OpenStack on the next one. AI everywhere. But those two problems, I think, are the consistent things we see as a pattern in the Edge. >> Alright, so Mark, last question I have for you. Company update. So last year we talked a little bit about focusing, where the company's going, talked a bit about the business model and you said to me, "Developers should never have to pay for anything." It's the governance people and everything like that. Give us the company update, everything from rumors from hey, maybe you're IPO-ing to what's happening, what can you share? >> Right, so the twin areas of focus, IOT and cloud infrastructure. IOT continues to be an area of R and D for us so we're still essentially underwriting an IOT investment. I'm very excited about that. I think it's the right thing to be doing at the moment. I think IOT is the next wave, effectively, and we're in a special position. We really can get down, both economically and operationally, into that sort of small itch kind of scenario. Cloud, for us, is a growth story. I talked a little bit about taking Ubuntu and Canonical into the finance sector. In one year, we closed deals with 20% of the top 20 banks in the world to build Ubuntu base and open infrastructure. That's a huge shift from the traditional dependence exclusively on VMware Red Hat. Now, suddenly, Ubuntu's in there, Canonical's in there. I think everybody understands that telcos really love Ubuntu and so that continues to grow for us. Commercially, we're expanding both in Emir and here in the Americas. I won't talk more about our corporate plans other than to say I see no reason for us to scramble to cover any other areas. I think cloud infrastructure and IOT is plenty for one company. For me, it's a privilege to combine that kind of business with what happens in the Ubuntu community. I'm still very passionate about the fact that we enable people to consume free software and innovate. And we do that without any friction. We don't have an enterprise version of Ubuntu. We don't need an enterprise version of Ubuntu, the whole thing's enterprise. Even if you're a one-person startup. >> Mark Shuttleworth, always a pleasure to catch up. Thank you so much for joining us. >> Mark: Thank you, Stu. >> For John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman. Back with lots more coverage here from OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (soft electronic music)

(electronic music) >> Narrator: Live from Boston, Massachusetts it's The Cube covering OpenStack Summit 2017. Brought to you by the OpenStack Foundation, RedHat and additional ecosystem support. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman joined by my cohost John Troyer. We always want to give the community what they want. and I think from the early returns on day one, we brought back Mark Shuttleworth. So Mark, founder of Canonical, had you on yesterday. A lot of feedback from the communities, so welcome back. >> Thank you, great to be here and looking forward to questions from the community and you. >> Yeah, so let's start with, we love at the show you get some of these users up on stage and they get to talk about what they're doing. We were actually, John and I, were catching up with a friend of ours that talked about how a private cloud, the next revision is going to use OpenStack, so really, OpenStack's been a little under the covers in many ways. The composability of OpenStack now, we're going to see pieces of it show up a lot of places. We've heard a lot about the Telco places, maybe talk about some of the emerging areas, enterprise customers, that you find for Ubuntu and OpenStack specifically? >> Sure. Well it seems as if every industry has a different name for the same phenomenon, right. So, for some it's "digital", for other's it's essentially a transformation of some aspect of what they're doing. The Telcos call it NFV, in media you have OTT as a sort of emerging threat and the response, in every case, is really to empower developers. That's why it's such a fun time to be a software developer, because the established guys realize that if they aren't already competing with Silicon Valley, they're going to be competing with Silicon Valley. So in each industry there's a sort of challenges or labels that they give this process of kind of unleashing developers and it's fun for us, because we get to be part of that in many cases. I think the big drivers under the hood, other than the operational and economic dynamics of cloudification, I think the really big changes are going to be machine learning, which seems to be moving very quickly into every industry. Retailers are using it for predictive analytics on what to put in store or what to recommend online. It just has this huge effect on almost any business when you figure out how to use your data in that way. All of that is developer driven, all of that needs this kind of underlying infrastructure to power it and it's kind of relevant to every industry. For us media is a key prospect, you know that we've done very, very well in Telco. Media is now a sort-of critical focus. Companies like Bloomberg for example us Ubuntu as an elastic platform for agility for the developers. They're a pretty astonishing operation; media company, but very tech-centric, very tech-savvy. I don't know if you've had them on the show. In retail, Ebay, PayPal it's kind of a crossover finance. They're all using Ubuntu in that sort of way. They may now see the major financials who are looking at the intersection of machine learning and transactions systems effectively as the driver for that kind of change. >> Stu: So in our last interview we talked about are companies making money in OpenStack and your answer, resoundingly, was yes. >> Mark: For us, certainly, yeah. >> One of the things we always look at is kind of the open source model itself. I was at DockerCon a few weeks ago, it's like everybody's using Docker. How do they make money? The question I get from a number of people in the community is, everybody I talk to knows Ubuntu, uses Ubuntu, when do they transition to paying for some of the products? >> Well so one of our key tenants is that we want to put no friction in front of developers. So many of the people that you'll meet here or that you'll meet at other developer-centric summits, they're developer-oriented. They're creatives, effectively. So our products, our commercial products aren't really designed to tax developers effectively. What we want is developers to have the latest and greatest platforms, to have that absolutely free, to be able to have confidence in the fact that it can go into production. When applications get into production, a whole different set of people get involved. For example the security guys will say, does this comply with FIPS security? And that's a commercial capability that customers get from Canonical if they wanted so we're now getting a set of security certifications that enable people to take apps on Ubuntu into production inside defense industries or other high security industries. Similarly if you look at the support life cycle, our standard public free support maintenance window is five years, which is a long time, but for certain applications it turns out the app needs to be in production for 10 years and again that's a driver for a different set of people. Not the developers, but for compilers and system administration operation types to engage with Canonical commercially. Sometimes we would walk through the building and the developers love us as everything's free and then the ops guys love us because we will support them for longer than we would support the developers. >> Can we talk about Open Source as a component of business models in general maybe, and how you would like to see the ecosystem growing, and even Canonical's business model. In the course of the last decade in the industry itself, right, a lot of people sniping at each other; "Well, you know open core is the way to go, open source is not a business model" there's a lot of yelling. You've been around, you know what works. How do you a set of healthy companies that use open source develop in our ecosystem? >> So this is a really, really interesting topic and I'll start at the high end. If you think of the Googles, and the Facebooks, and the Amazons, and the Microsofts, and the Oracles, I think for them open source is now a weapon. It's a way to commoditize something that somebody else attaches value to and in the game of love and war, or Go, or chess, or however you want to think of it, between those giants open source very much has become a kind of root to market in order to establish standards for the next wave. Right now in machine learning for example we see all of these major guys pushing stuff out as open source. People wouldn't really ask "what's the business model" there 'cause they understand that this is these huge organizations essentially trying to establish standards for the next wave through open source. Okay, so that's one approach. On the startup side it's a lot more challenging and there I think we need to do two things. So right now I would say, if you're a single app startup it's very difficult with open source. If you've got a brilliant idea for a database, if you've got a brilliant idea for a messaging system, it's very, very difficult to do that with open source and I think you've seen the consequences of that over the years. That's actually not a great result for us in open source. At the end of the day, what drives brilliant folks to invest 20 hours a day for three years of their life to create something new, part of it is the sense they'll get a return on that and so, actually, we want that innovation. Not just from the Googles, and the Oracles, and the Microsofts, but we want innovation from real startups in open source. So one of the things I'd like to see is that I'd like to see the open source community being more generous of spirit to the startups who are doing that. That's not Canonical, particularly, but it is the Dockers of the world, it is the RethinkDBs, as a recent example. Those are great guys who had really good ideas and we should caution open source folks when they basically piss on the parade of the startup. It's a very short-sighted approach. The other thing that I do need to do is we need to figure out the monetization strategy. Selling software the old way is really terrible. There's a lot of friction associated with it. So one of the things that I'm passionate about is hacking Ubuntu to enable startups to innovate as open source if they want to, but then deliver their software to the enterprise market. Everywhere where you can find Ubuntu, and you know now that's everywhere right? Every Global 2000 company is running Ubuntu. Whether we can call them a customer or not is another question. But how can we enable all those innovators and startups to deliver their stuff to all of those companies and make money doing it? That's really good for those companies, and it's really good for the startups, and that's something I'm very passionate about. >> We've seen such a big transformation. I mean, the era of the shrink wrapped software is gone. An era that I want to get your long term perspective on is, when it comes to internet security. Back to your first company, we had Edward Snowden and the keynote this morning talking about security, and he bashed the public cloud guys and said "We need private cloud, and you need to control a lot more there" any comments on his stuff, the public/private era and internet security in general today? Are we safer today than we were back in '99? >> We certainly are safer in part because of Edward Snowden. Awareness is the only way to start the process of getting stuff better. I don't think it's simplistically that you can bash the public clouds. For example Google does incredible work around security and there's a huge amount of stuff in the Linux stack today around security specifically that we have Google to thank for. Amazon and others are also starting to invest in those areas. So I think the really interesting question is, how do we make security easy in the field and still make it meaningful? That's something we can have a big impact on because security when you touch it it can often feel like friction. So for example we use AppArmor. Now AppArmor is a more modern of the SC Linux ideas that is just super easy to use which means people don't even know that they're using it. Every copy of Ubuntu out there is actually effectively as secure as if you've turned on SC Linux, but administrators don't ever have to worry about that because the way AppArmor works is designed to be really, really easy to just integrate and that allows each piece of the ecosystem, the upstreams, the developers, the end users to essentially upgrade their security without really have to think about that as a budget item or a work ticket item, or something that's friction. >> Mark, any conversations on the show surprise you? Excite you? There's always such a great collection of some really smart and engaged people at this show. I'm curious what your experience has been so far. >> Sure. I think it's interesting. Open Stack moved so quickly from idea to superstar. I guess it's like a child prodigy, you know, a child TV star. The late teens can be a little rocky, right? (Mark laughs) I think it will emerge from all of that as quite a thoughtful community. There were a ton of people who came to these shows who were just stuffed, effectively, there by corporates who just wanted to do something in cloud. Now I think the conversation is much more measured. You've got folks here who really want these pieces to fit together and be useful. Our particular focus is the consumption of OpenStack in a way that is really economically impactful for enterprises. But the people who I see continuing to make meaningful contributions here are people who really want something to work. Whether that's networking, or storage, or compute, or operations as in our case but they're the folks who care about that infrastructure really working rather than the flash in the pan types and I think that's a good transition for the community to be making. >> Can you say a little more about the future of OpenStack and the direction you see the community going. I don't know. If you had a magic wand and you look forward a couple of years. We talked a lot about operability and maintainability, upgradeability, ease of use. That seems to be one of the places that you're trying to drive the ecosystem. >> One of the things that I think the community is starting to realize is that if you try to please everybody, you'll end up with something nobody can really relate to. I think if you take the mission of OpenStack as to say, look, open source is going to do lots of complicated things but if we can essentially just deliver virtualized infrastructure in a super automated way so that nobody has to think about it, the virtual machines, virtual disks, virtual networks on demand. That's an awesome contribution to the innovation stack. There are a ton of other super shiny things that could happen on any given culture and ODS but if we just get that piece right, we've made a huge contribution and I think for a while OpenStack was trying to do everything for everybody. Lots of reasons why that might be the case but now I think there's a stronger sense of "This is the mission" and it will deliver on that mission, I have great confidence. It was contrarian then to say we shouldn't be doing everything, it's contrarian now to say "actually, we're fine". We're learning what we need to be. >> The ebb and flows of this community have been really interesting. NASA helped start it. NASA went to Amazon, NASA went back to OpenStack. >> Think about the economics of cars, right. It's kind of incredible that I can sit outside the building and pull up the app, and I have a car. It's also quite nice to own a car. People do both. The economics of ownership and the economics of renting, they're pretty well understood and most institutions or most people can figure out that sometimes they'll do a bit of either. What we have to do is, at the moment we have a situation where if you want to own your infrastructure the operations are unpredictable. Whereas if you rent it it's super predictable. If we can just put predictability of price and performance into OpenStack, which is, for example what the manage services, what BootStack does. Also what JUJU and MAAS do. They allow you to say, I can do that. I can do that quickly, and I don't have to go and open a textbook to do that or hire 50 people to do it. That essentially allows people now to make the choice between owning and renting in a very natural way, and I think once people understand that that's what this is all about it'll give them a sense of confidence again. >> Curious your viewpoint on the future of jobs in tech. We talked a little bit before about autonomous vehicles. It has the opportunity to be a great boon from a technology standpoint but could hollow out this massive amount of jobs globally. Is technology an enabler of some of these things? Do we race with the machines? We interviewed Erik Brynjolfsson and Andy McAfee from the MIT Sloan School. Did you personally have some thoughts on that? In places where Canonical looks about our future workforce, do we end up with "coding becomes the new blue collar job"? >> I don't know if I can speak to a single career but I think the simple fact is there's nothing magical about the brain. The brain is a mesh network competing flows and it makes decisions, and I think we will simulate that pretty soon and we'll suddenly realize there's nothing magical about the brain but there is something magical about humans and so, what is a job? A job is kind of how we figure out what we want to do most of the day and how we want to define ourselves in some sense. That's never going to go away. I think it's highly likely that humans are obsolete as decision makers and surprisingly soon. Simply because there's nothing magic about the brain and we'll build bigger and better brains for any kind of decision you can imagine. But the art of being human? That's kind of magical, and humans will find a way to evolve into that time. I'm not too worried about it. >> Okay. Last thing I want to ask is, what's exciting you these days? We've talked about space exploration a few times. Happy to comment on it. I mean, the last 12 months has been amazing to watch for those of us. I grew up studying engineering. You always look up to the stars. What's exciting you these days? >> Well the commercialization of space, the commercial access to space is just fantastic to see, sure, really dawning and credit to the Bezoses and the Musks who are kind of shaking up the status quo in those industries. We will be amongst the stars. I have no doubt about it. It will be part of the human experience. For me personally, I expect I'll go back to space and do something interesting there. It'll get easier and easier and so I can pack my walking stick and go to the moon, maybe. But right now from a love of technology and business point of view, IoT is such rich pickings. You can't swing a cat but find something that can be improved in a very physical way. It's great to see that intersection of entrepreneurship and tinkering suddenly come alive again. You don't have to be a giant institution to go and compete with the giant institutions that are driving the giant clouds. You just have to be able to spot a business opportunity in real life around you and how the right piece of software in the right place with the right data can suddenly make things better and so it's just delicious the sort of things people are doing. Ubuntu again is a great platform for innovating around that. It's just great fun for me to see really smart people who three years ago would say, do I really want to go work at a giant organization in Silicon Valley? Or can I have fun with something for a while that's really mine and whether that's worth 12 bucks or 12 billion who knows? But it just feels fun and I'm enjoying that very much, seeing people find interesting things to do at the edge. >> Mark Shuttleworth, appreciate being able to dig into a lot more topics with you today and we'll be right back with lots more coverage here from OpenStack 2017 in Boston. You're watching the cube. (electronic music)

>> Live from Barcelona, Spain, it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon CloudNativeCon, Europe, 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat, the CloudNative Computing Foundation and ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, we're at the end of two days, wall-to-wall coverage here at KubeCon CloudNativeCon here in Barcelona, Spain. I'm Stu Miniman, my co-host for two days has been Corey Quinn. Corey, we've gone two days, it's five years of Kubernetes, and everybody's been wondering when are you going to sing happy birthday to Fippy and the Kubernetes team? >> Generally, no one wants to hear me sing more than once, because first, I don't have a great singing voice, but more importantly, I insist on calling it Corey-oki, and it just doesn't resonate with people. The puns don't land as well as you'd hope they would. >> Maybe not singing, but you are a master of limericks, I'm told. >> So they tell me, most are unprintable, but that's a separate argument for another time. >> Alright, so, Corey this is your first time at KubeCon. >> It is. >> In CloudNativeCon, we've done some analysis segments, I thought we've had some phenomenal guests, some great end-users, some thought leaders, >> We had some great times. >> You need to pick your favorite right now. >> Oh, everyone's going to pick their own favorite on this one, but I've got to say it was, it would have to be, hands down, Abby Fuller, from AWS. Not that I didn't enjoy all of our guests -- >> Is it because you have AWS on your Lapel pin, and that secretly you do work for Amazon? >> Hardly, just the opposite, in fact. It's that, given that my newsletter makes fun of AWS on a near constant basis, whenever someone says Oh, there's going to be a public thing with Corey and someone from AWS, half the people there are like, Oh, this is going to be good, and the other half turn ghost white and Oh, no, no, this is going to go awfully. And, I'll be honest, it's been a day now, I still don't know which it was, but we had fun. >> Yeah, so, Abby was phenomenal, loved having her on the program, I'm a sucker for the real transformational stories, I tell you Jeff Brewer from Intuit, there's been many times I do a show and I do like, the first interview, and I'm like, I can go home. Here we hear a company that we know, both of us have used this technology, and really walks us through how that transformation happens, some of the organizational things. They've brought some software in and they're contributing to it, so just many aspects of what I look at in a company that's modernizing and going through those pieces. And those kinds of stories always get me excited. >> That story was incredible, and in fact it's almost starting to turn into a truth and labeling issue, for lack of a better term, because this is the Cloudnative Foundation, the software is designed for things that were more or less born in the cloud, and now we're hearing this entire series of stories on transitioning in. And it almost feels like that's not native anymore, that's effectively something that is migrating in. And that's fantastic, it's a sign of maturity, it's great to see. And it's strange to think of that, that in the terms of the software itself is absolutely Cloudnative, it's not at all clear that the companies that are working with this are themselves. And that's okay, that's not a terrible thing. There was some snark from the keynote today about, here's a way to run web logic in Kubernetes, and half the audience was looking at this with a, Eeee, why would I ever want to do that? Because you're running web logic and you need to continue to run web logic, and you can either sit there and make fun of people, you can help them get to a different place than they are now that helps their business become more agile and improves velocity, but I don't think you can effectively do both. >> Yeah, Corey, anything that's over than 5 years old why would you ever want to do that? Because you must always do things the brand new way. Oh wait, let's consider this for a second, lift and shift is something that I cringe a little bit when I hear it because there's too many times that I would hear a customer say I did this, and I hadn't fully planned out how I was doing it, and then I clawed it back because it was neither cheap nor easy, I swiped that credit card and it wasn't what I expected. >> Yeah, I went ahead and decided to run on a cloud provider now my infrastructure runs on someone else's infrastructure, and then a few months go by, and the transition doesn't happen right, I was wrong, it's not running on someone else's infrastructure, it's running on money. What do I do? And that became something that was interesting for a lot of companies, and painful as well. You can do that, but you need to plan the second shift phase to take longer than you think it will, you will not recoup savings in the time frame you probably expect to, but that's okay because it's usually not about that. It's a capability story. >> I had hoped that we learned as an industry. You might remember the old phrase, my mess for less? By outsourcing, and then we'll, Oh wait, I put it in an environment, they don't really understand my business, I can't make changes in the way I want, I need to insource now my knowledge to be able to work close with the business, and therefore no matter where I put my valuable code, my valuable information and I run stuff, I'm responsible for it and even if I move it there as a first step, I need to make sure how do I actually optimize it for that environment from a cost savings, there's lots of things that I can to change those kind of things. >> The one cautionary tale I'm picking up from a lot of these stories has been that you need to make sure the people you're talking to, and the trusted advisors that you have are aligned with your incentives, not their own. No matter where you go, there's an entire sea of companies that are thrilled and lined up to sell you something. And that's not inherently a bad thing, but you need to understand that whenever you're having those conversations, there's a potential conflict of interest. Not necessarily an actual one, but pay attention. You can partner with someone, but at some point your interests do diverge. >> Okay, Corey, what other key learnings or sound bites did you get from some of our speakers this week? >> There were an awful lot of them. I think that's the first time I've ever seen, for example, a project having pieces removed from it, Tiller, in this case, and a bunch of people clapped and cheered. They've been ripped out of Helm, it's oh awesome, normally the only time you see something get ripped out and people cheer is when they finally fire that person you work with. Usually, that person is me, then everyone claps and cheers, which, frankly, if you've met me, that makes sense. For software, it's less common. But we saw that, we saw two open-source projects merging. >> Yeah. >> We had, it was-- >> Open telemetry is the new piece. >> With open senses and open tracing combining, you don't often see that done in anything approaching a responsible way, but we've seen it now. And there's been a lot of people a little miffed that there weren't a whole bunch of new features and services and what not launched today. That's a sign of maturity. It means that there's a stability story that is now being told. And I think that that's something that's very easy to overlook if you're interested in a pure development perspective. >> Just to give a little bit of a cautionary piece there, we had Mark Shuttleworth on the program, he said Look, there are certain emperors walking around the show floor that have no clothes on. Had Tim talking, Joe Beta, and Gabe Monroy on, some of the earliest people working on Kubernetes and they said Look, five years in, we've reached a certain level of maturity, but Tim Hoggin was like, we have so much to do, our sigs are overrunning with what I need to do now, so don't think we can declare success, cut the cake, eat the donuts, grab the t-shirt, and say great let's go on to the next great thing because there is so much more yet to do. >> There's absolutely a consulting opportunity for someone to set up shop and call it imperial tailoring. Where they're going around and helping these people realize that yes, you've come an incredibly long way, but there is so much more work to be done, there is such a bright future. Now I would not call myself a screaming advocate for virtually any technology, I hope. I think that Kubernetes absolutely has it's place. I don't think it's a Penesea, and I don't think that it is going to necessarily be the right fit for every work load. I think that most people, once you get them calmed down, and the adrenaline has worn off, would largely agree with that sentiment. But that nuance often gets lost in a world of tweets, it's a nuanced discussion that doesn't lend itself well to rapid fire, quick sound bites. >> Corey, another thing I know that is near and dear to your heart they brought in diversity scholarships. >> Yes. >> So 56 people got their pass and travel paid for to come here. There's really good, People in the community are very welcoming, yet in the same breath, when they talked about the numbers, and Cheryl was up on stage saying only three percent of the people contributing and making changes were women. And so, therefore, we still have work to do to make sure that, you've mentioned a couple of times on the program. >> Absolutely, and it is incredibly important, but one of the things that gives me some of the most hope for that is how many companies or organizations would run numbers like that and realize that three percent of their contributors are women, and then mention it during a keynote. That's almost unheard of for an awful lot of companies, instead they wind up going and holding that back. One company we don't need to name, wound up trying to keep that from coming out in a court case as a trade secret, of all things. And that's generally, depressingly, what you would often expect. The fact that they called it out, and the fact that they are having a diversity scholarship program, they are looking at actively at ways to solve this problem is I think the right answer. I certainly don't know what the fix is going to be for any of this, but something has to happen, and the fact that they are not sitting around waiting for the problem to fix itself, they're not casting blame around a bunch of different directions is inspirational. I'm probably not the best person to talk on this, but the issue is, you're right, it is very important to me and it is something that absolutely needs to be addressed. I'm very encouraged by the conversations we had with Cheryl Hung and several other people these last couple of days, and I'm very eager to see where it goes next. >> Okay, Corey, what about any things you've been hearing in the back channel, hallway conversations, any concerns out there? The one from my standpoint where I say, well, security is something that for most of my career was top of mine, and bottom of budget, and from day one, when you talk about containers and everything, security is there. There are a number of companies in this space that are starting to target it, but there's not a lot of VC money coming into this space, and there are concerns about how much real focus there will be to make sure security in this ecosystem is there. Every single platform that this is going to live in, whether you talk the public clouds, talk about companies like Red Hat, and everybody else here, security is a big piece of their message and their focus, but from a CNCF if there was one area that I didn't hear enough about at this show, I thought it might be storage, but feels like we are making progress there, so security's the one I come out with and say I want to know more, I want to see more. >> One thing that I thought was interesting is we spoke to Reduxio earlier, and they were talking about one of their advantages was that they are quote enterprise grade, and normally to me that means we have slides with war and peace written on every one. And instead what they talked about was they have not just security built into this, but they have audit ability, they have an entire, they have data lifecycle policies, they have a level of maturity that is necessary if we're going to start winning some of these serious enterprise and regulated workloads. So, there are companies active in this space. But I agree with you, I think that it is not been a primary area of focus. But if you look at how quickly this entire, I will call it a Kubernetes revolution, because anything else takes on religious overtones, it's been such a fast Twitch type of environment that security does get left behind, because it's never a concern or a priority until it's too late. And then it becomes a giant horses left, barn door's been closed story, and I hope we don't have to learn that. >> So, MultiCloud, Corey, have you changed your mind? >> I don't think so, I still maintain that MultiCloud within the absence of a business reason is not a best practice. I think that if you need to open that door for business reasons then Kubernetes is not a terrible way to go about achieving it. But I do question whether it's something everyone needs to put into their system design principles on day one. >> Okay, must companies be born CloudNative, or can they mature into a CloudNative, or we should be talking a different term maybe? >> I don't know if it's a terminology issue, we've certainly seen companies that were born in on-prem environments where the classic example of this is Capital One. They are absolutely going all in on public cloud, they have been very public about how they're doing it. Transformation is possible, it runs on money and it takes a lot more time and effort than anyone thinks it's going to, but as long as you have the right incentives and the right reason to do things it absolutely becomes possible. That said, it is potentially easier, if you're born in the cloud, to a point. If you get ossified into existing patterns and don't pay attention to what's happening, you look at these companies that are 20 years old, and oh they're so backwards they'll never catch up. If you live that long, that will be you someday. So it's very important to not stop paying attention to what the larger ecosystem is doing, because you don't want to be the only person responsible for levels of your stack that you don't want to have to be responsible for. >> Alright, want to give you the final word. Corey, any final things, any final questions for me? >> Fundamentally I think that this has been an incredible event. Where we've had great conversations with people who are focused on an awful lot of different things. There are still a bunch of open questions. I still, for example, think that Serverless is being viewed entirely too much through a lens of functions as a service, but I'm curious as far as what you took away from this. What did you learn this trip that you didn't expect to learn? >> So, it's interesting when we talk about the changing world of OpenSource. There's been some concern lately that what's happening in the public cloud, well, maybe OpenSource will be imploding. Well, it really doesn't feel that way to me when you talk at this show, we've actually used the line a couple of times, Kubernetes is people. It is not the vendors jested, >> Internet of flesh. >> There are people here. We've all seen people that we know that have passions for what they are doing, and that goes above and beyond where they live. And in this community it is project first, and the company you work for is second or third consideration in there. So, there's this groundswell of activity, we're big believers of the world can be changed if, I don't need everybody's full time commitment, if you could just take two percent of the US's watching of TV in a single year, you could build Wikipedia. Clay Sharky, one of my greats that I love from those environments, we believe that the network and communities really can make huge efforts and it's great to see tech for good and for progress and many of the outcomes of that we see here is refreshingly uplifting to kind of pull us out of some of the day-to-day things that we think about sometimes. >> Absolutely, I think that you're right, it has to come from people, it has to come from community, and so far I'm seeing a lot of encouraging signs. One thing that I do find slightly troubling that may or may not resolve itself is that we're still seeing CloudNative defined in terms of what it's not. That said, this is theCUBE, I am not Stu Miniman. >> Well, I am Stu Miniman, you are Corey Quinn. Corey, how's it been two days on theCUBE wall-to-wall through all these things, ready for a nap or fly home? >> I'm ready to call it a week, absolutely. I'm somewhat surprised that at no point have you hit me. And one of these days I am sure we will cross that border. >> Well, definitely, I try not to have any video or photo evidence of that, but thank you Corey, so much. We do have to make a big shout out, first and foremost to the CloudNative Computing Foundation without their partnership, we would not be able to come here. And we do have sponsorship if you look on the lower thirds of the videos you will see our headline sponsor for this show has been Red Hat. Obviously strong commitment in this community, and will be with us here and also in San Diego for KubeCon. Additional shout out to Cisco, Canonical, and Reduxio for their sponsorship here. And all the people that put on this show here, it's a big community, our team. So I want to make a big shout out to my boys here, coming in I've got Pat, Seth, flying in from the West Coast as well as the Tony Day crew Tony, Steve, and John. Thank you guys, beautiful set here, love the gimble with the logo. Branding here, lot's of spectacle, and we always say check out thecube.com to see all the replays as well, see where we will be, reach out with any questions, and thank you as always, for watching theCUBE. (upbeat jingle)

>> From the SiliconANGLE Media office in Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE. Now here are your hosts, Dave Vellante and Stu Miniman. >> Hi everybody, Dave Vellante here with Stu Miniman. We're here to unpack the recent acquisition that IBM announced of Red Hat. $34 billon acquisition financed with cash and debt. And Stu, let me get us started. Why would IBM spend $34 billion on Red Hat? Its largest acquisition to date of a software company had been Cognos at $5 billion. This is a massive move. IBM's Ginni Rometty called this a game changer. And essentially, my take is that they're pivoting. Their public cloud strategy was not living up to expectations. They're pivoting to hybrid cloud. Their hybrid cloud strategy was limited because they didn't really have strong developer mojo, their Bluemix PaaS layer had really failed. And so they really needed to make a big move here, and this is a big move. And so IBM's intent, and Ginni Rometty laid out the strategy, is to become number one in hybrid cloud, the undisputed leader. And so we'll talk about that. But Stu, from Red Hat's perspective, it's a company you're very close to and you've observed for a number of years, Red Hat was on a path touting a $5 billion revenue plan, what happened? Why would they capitulate? >> Yeah Dave, on the face of it, Red Hat says that IBM will help it further its mission. We just listened to Arvin Krishna from IBM talking with Paul Cormier at Red Hat, and they talked about how they were gonna keep the Red Hat brand alive. IBM has a long history with open source. As you mentioned, I've been working with Red Hat, gosh, almost 20 years now, and we all think back to two decades ago, when IBM put a billion dollars into Linux and really pushed on open source. So these are not strangers, they know each other really well. Part of me looks at these from a cynicism standpoint. Somebody on Twitter said that Red Hat is hitting it at the peak of Kubernetes hype. And therefore, they're gonna get maximum valuation for where the stock is. Red Hat has positioned itself rather well in the hybrid cloud world, really the multicloud world, when you go to AWS, when you go to the Microsoft Azure environment, you talk to Google. Open source fits into that environment and Red Hat products specifically tie into those environments. Remember last year, in Boston, there's a video of Andy Jassy talking about a partnership with Red Hat. This year, up on stage, Microsoft with Azure partnering deeply with Red Hat. So Red Hat has done a nice job of moving beyond Linux. But Linux is still at its core. There definitely is concern that the operating system is less important today than it was in the past. It was actually Red Hat's acquisition of CoreOS for about $250 million earlier this year that really put a fine point on it. CoreOS was launched to be just enough Linux to live in this kind of container and Kubernetes world. And Red Hat, of course, like we've seen often, the company that is saying, "We're going to kill you", well you go and you buy them. So Red Hat wasn't looking to kill IBM, but definitely we've seen this trend of softwares eating the world, and open sources eating software. So IBM, hopefully, is a embracing that open source ethos. I have to say, Dave, for myself, a little sad to see the news. Red Hat being the paragon of open source. The one that we always go to for winning in this space. So we hope that they will be able to keep their culture. We've had a chance, many times, to interview Jim Whitehurst, really respected CEO. One that we think should stay involved in IBM deeply for this. But if they can keep and grow the culture, then it's a win for Red Hat. But still sorting through everything, and it feels like a little bit of a capitulation that Red Hat decides to sell off rather than keep its mission of getting to five billion and beyond, and be the leading company in the space. >> Well I think it is a bit of a capitulation. Because look, Red Hat is roughly a $3 billion company, growing at 20% a year, had that vision of five billion Its stock, in June, had hit $175. So while IBM's paying a 60% premium off of its current price, it's really only about 8 or 9% higher than where Red Hat was just a few months ago. And so I think, there's an old saying on Wall Street, the first disappointment is never the last. And so I think that Red Hat was looking at a long slog. They reduced expectations, they guided lower, and they were looking at the 90-day shot clock. And this probably wasn't going to be a good 'nother couple of years for Red Hat. And they're selling at the peak of the market, or roughly the peak of the market. They probably figured, hey, the window is closing, potentially, to do this deal. Maybe not such a bad time to get out, as opposed to trying to slog it out. Your thoughts. >> Yeah, Dave, I think you're absolutely right. When you look at where Red Hat is winning, they've done great in OpenStack but there's not a lot of excitement around OpenStack. Kubernetes was talked about lots in the announcement, in the briefings, and everything like that. I was actually surprised you didn't hear as much about just the core business. You would think you would be hearing about all the companies using Red Hat Enterprise Linux around the world. That ratable model that Red Hat really has a nice base of their environment. It was talking more about the future and where Kubernetes, and cloud-native, and all of that development will go. IBM has done middling okay with developers. They have a strong history in middleware, which is where a lot of the Red Hat development activity has been heading. It was interesting to hear, on the call, it's like, oh well, what about the customers that are using IBM too say, "Oh well, if customers want that, we'll still do it." What about IBM with Cloud Foundry? Well absolutely, if customers wanna still be doing it, they'll do that. So you don't hear the typical, "Oh well, we're going to take Red Hat technology "and push it through all of IBM's channel." This is in the IBM cloud group, and that's really their focus, as it is. I feel like they're almost limiting the potential for growth for Red Hat. >> Well so IBM's gonna pay for this, as I said, it's an all cash deal. IBM's got about 14 and a half billion dollars on the balance sheet. And so they gotta take out some debt. S&P downgraded IBM's rating from an A+ to an A. And so the ratings agency is going to be watching IBM's growth. IBM said this will add 200 basis points of revenue growth over the five year CAGR. But that means we're really not gonna see that for six, seven years. And Ginni Rometty stressed this is not a backend loaded thing. We're gonna find revenue opportunities through cross-selling and go-to-market. But we have a lot of questions on this deal, Stu. And I wanna sorta get into that. So first of all, again, I think it's the right move for IBM. It's a big move for IBM. Rumors were that Cisco might have been interested. I'm not sure if Microsoft was in the mix. So IBM went for it and, as I said, didn't pay a huge premium over where their stock was back in June. Now of course, back in June, the market was kind of inflated. But nonetheless, the strategy now is to go multi-cloud. The number one in the multi-cloud world. What is that multi-cloud leadership? How are we gonna measure multi-cloud? Is IBM, now, the steward of open source for the industry? To your point earlier, you're sad, Stu, I know. >> You bring up a great point. So I think back to three years ago, with the Wikibon we put together, our true private cloud forecast. And when we built that, we said, "Okay, here's the hardware, and software, "and services in private cloud." And we said, "Well let's try to measure hybrid cloud." And we spent like, six months looking at this. And it's like, well what is hybrid cloud? I've got my public cloud pieces, and I've got my private cloud pieces. Well there's some management layers and things that go in between. Do I count things like PaaS? So do you save people like Pivotal and Red Hat's OpenShift? Are those hybrid cloud? Well but they live either here or there. They're not usually necessarily helping with the migration and moving around. I can live in multiple environments. So Linux and containers live in the public, they live in the private, they don't just fly around in the ether. So measuring hybrid cloud, I think is really tough. Does IBM plus Red Hat make them a top leader in this hybrid multi-cloud world? Absolutely, they should be mentioned a lot more. When I go to the cloud shows, the public cloud shows, IBM isn't one of the first peak companies you think about. Red Hat absolutely is in the conversation. It actually should raise the profile of Red Hat because, while Red Hat plays in a lot of the conversations, they're also not the first company that comes to mind when you talk about them. Microsoft, middle of hybrid cloud. Oracle, positioning their applications in this multi-cloud world. Of course you can't talk about cloud, any cloud, without talking about Amazon's position in the marketplace. And SAS is the real place that it plays. So IBM, one of their biggest strengths is that they have applications. Dave, you know the space really well. What does this mean vis-à-vis Oracle? >> Well let's see, so Oracle, I think, is looking at this, saying, alright. I would say IBM is Oracle's number one competitor in the enterprise. You got SAP, and Amazon obviously in cloud, et cetera, et cetera. But let me put it this way, I think Oracle is IBM's number one competitor. Whether Oracle sees it that way or not. But they're clearly similar companies, in terms of their vertical integration. I think Oracle's looking at this, saying, hey. There's no way Oracle was gonna spend $34 billion on Red Hat. And I don't think they were interested in really spending any money on the alternatives. But does this put Canonical and SUSE in play? I think Oracle's gonna look at this and sort of message to its customers, "We're already number one in our world in hybrid cloud." But I wanna come back to the deal. I'm actually optimistic on the deal, from the standpoint of, I think IBM had to make a big move like this. Because it was largely just bumping along. But I'm not buying the narrative from Jim Whitehurst that, "Well we had to do this to scale." Why couldn't they scale with partners? I just don't understand that. They're open. This is largely, to me, a services deal. This is a big boon for IBM Services business. In fact, Jim Whitehurst, and Ginni even said that today on the financial analyst call, Jim said, "Our big constraint was "services scale and the industry expertise there." So what was that constraint? Why couldn't they partner with Accenture, and Ernie Young, and PwC, and the likes of Deloitte, to scale and preserve greater independence? And I think that the reason is, IBM sees an opportunity and they're going hard after it. So how will, or will, IBM change its posture relative to some of those big services plays? >> Yeah, Dave, I think you're absolutely right there. Because Red Hat should've been able to scale there. I wonder if it's just that all of those big service system integrators, they're working really closely with the public cloud providers. And while Red Hat was a piece of it, it wasn't the big piece of it. And therefore, I'm worried on the application migration. I'm worried about the adoption of infrastructure as a service. And Red Hat might be a piece in the puzzle, but it wasn't the driver for that change, and the move, and the modernization activities that were going on. That being said, OpenShift was a great opportunity. It plays in a lot of these environments. It'll be really interesting to see. And a huge opportunity for IBM to take and accelerate that business. From a services standpoint, do you think it'll change their position with regard to the SIs? >> I don't. I think IBM's gonna try to present, preserve Red Hat as an independent company. I would love to see IBM do what EMC did years ago with VMware, and float some portion of the company, and truly have it at least be quasi-independent. With an independent operating structure, and reporting structure from the standpoint of a public company. That would really signal to the partners that IBM's serious about maintaining independence. >> Yeah now, look Dave, IBM has said they will keep the brand, they will keep the products. Of all the companies that would buy Red Hat, I'm not super worried about kinda polluting open source. It was kinda nice that Jim Whitehurst would say, if it's a Red Hat thing, it is 100% open source. And IBM plays in a lot of these environments. A friend of mine on Twitter was like, "Oh hey, IBM's coming back to OpenDaylight or things like that." Because they'd been part of Cloud Foundry, they'd been part of OpenDaylight. There's certain ones that they are part of it and then they step back. So IBM, credibly open source space, if they can let Red Hat people still do their thing. But the concern is that lots of other companies are gonna be calling up project leads, and contributors in the open source community that might've felt that Red Hat was ideal place to live, and now they might go get their paycheck somewhere else. >> There's rumors that Jim Whitehurst eventually will take over IBM. I don't see it, I just don't think Jim Whitehurst wants to run Z mainframes and Services. That doesn't make any sense to me. Ginni's getting to the age where IBM CEOs typically retire, within the next couple of years. And so I think that it's more likely they'll bring in somebody from internally. Whether it's Arvin or, more likely, Jim Kavanaugh 'cause he's got the relationship with Wall Street. Let's talk about winners and losers. It's just, again, a huge strategic move for IBM. Frankly, I see the big winners is IBM and Red Hat. Because as we described before, IBM was struggling with its execution, and Red Hat was just basically, finally hitting a wall after 60-plus quarters of growth. And so the question is, will its customers win? The big concern I have for the customers is, IBM has this nasty habit of raising prices when it does acquisitions. We've seen it a number of times. And so you keep an eye on it, if I were a Red Hat customer, I'd be locking in some attractive pricing, longterm. And I would also be calling Mark Shuttleworth, and get his take, and get that Amdahl coffee cup on my desk, as it were. Other winners and losers, your thoughts on some of the partners, and the ecosystem. >> Yeah, when I look at this and say, compare it to Microsoft buying GitHub. We're all wondering, is this a real game changer for IBM? And if they embrace the direction. It's not like Red Hat culture is going to just take over IBM. In the Q&A with IBM, they said, "Will there be influence? Absolutely. "Is this a marriage of equals? No. "We're buying Red Hat and we will be "communicating and working together on this" But you can see how this can help IBM, as to the direction. Open source and the multi-cloud world is a huge, important piece. Cisco, I think, could've made a move like this. I would've been a little bit more worried about maintaining open source purity, if it was somebody like Cisco. There's other acquisitions, you mentioned Canonical and SUSE are out there. If somebody wanted to do this, the role of the operating system is much less important than it is today. You wouldn't have seen Microsoft up on stage at Red Hat Summit this year if Windows was the driver for Microsoft going forward. The cloud companies out there, to be honest, it really cements their presence out there. I don't think AWS is sitting there saying, "Oh jeez, we need to worry." They're saying, "Well IBM's capitulated." Realizing that, "Sure they have their own cloud, "and their environment, but they're going to be "successful only when they live in, "and around, and amongst our platform of Amazon." And Azure's gonna feel the same way, and same about Google. So there's that dynamic there. >> What about VMware? >> So I think VMware absolutely is a loser here. When I went back to say one of the biggest strengths of IBM is that they have applications. When you talk about Red Hat, they're really working, not only at the infrastructure layer, but working with developers, and working in that environment. The biggest weakness of VMware, is they don't own the applications. I'm paying licenses to VMware. And in a multi-cloud world, why do I need VMware? As opposed to Red Hat and IBM, or Amazon, or Microsoft, have a much more natural affinity for the applications and the data in the future. >> And what about the arms dealers? HPE and Dell, in particular, and of course, Lenovo. Wouldn't they prefer Red Hat being independent? >> Absolutely, they would prefer that they're gonna stay independent. As long as it doesn't seem to customers that IBM is trying to twist everybody's arms, and get you on to Z, or Power, or something like that. And continues to allow partnerships with the HPEs, Dells, Lenovos of the world. I think they'll be okay. So I'd say middling to impact. But absolutely, Red Hat, as an independent, was really the Switzerland of the marketplace. >> Ginni Rometty had sited three growth areas. One was Red Hat scale and go-to-market. I think there's no question about that. IBM could help with Red Hat's go-to-market. The other growth vector was IBM's products and software on the Red Hat stack. I'm less optimistic there, because I think that it's the strength of IBM's products, in and of themselves, that are largely gonna determine that success. And then the third was Services. I think IBM Services is a huge winner here. Having the bat phone into Red Hat is a big win for IBM Services. They can now differentiate. And this is where I think it's gonna be really interesting to see the posture of Accenture and those other big guys. I think IBM can now somewhat differentiate from those guys, saying, "Well wait, "we have exclusive, or not exclusive, "but inside baseball access to Red Hat." So that's gonna be an interesting dynamic to watch. Your final thoughts here. >> Yeah, yeah, Dave, absolutely. On the product integration piece, the question would be, you're gonna have OpenAPIs. This is all gonna work with the entire ecosystem. Couldn't IBM have done more of this without having to pay $34 billion and put things together? Services, absolutely, will be the measurement as to whether this is successful or not. That's probably gonna be the line out of them in financials, that we're gonna have to look at. Because, Dave, going back to, what is hybrid, and how do we measure it? What is success for this whole acquisition down the line? Any final pieces to what we should watch and how we measure that? >> So I think that, first of all, IBM's really good with acquisitions, so keep an eye on that. I'm not so concerned about the debt. IBM's got strong free cash flow. Red Hat throws off a billion dollars a year in free cash flow. This should be an accretive acquisition. In terms of operating profits, it might take a couple of years. But certainly from a standpoint of free cash flow and revenue growth, I think it's gonna help near-term. If it doesn't, that's something that's really important to watch. And then the last thing is culture. You know a lot of people at these companies. I know a lot of people at these companies. Look, the Red Hat culture drinks the Kool-Aid of open. You know this. Do they see IBM as the steward of open, and are they gonna face a brain drain? That's why it's no coincidence that Whitehurst and Rometty were down in North Carolina today. And Arvin and Paul Cormier were in Boston today. This is where a lot of employees are for Red Hat. And they're messaging. And so that's very, very important. IBM's not foolish. So that, to me, Stu, is a huge thing, is the culture. Dave, IBM is no longer the navy suit with the red tie, and everybody buttoned down. People are concerned about like, oh, IBM's gonna give the Red Hat people a dress code. Sure, the typical IBMer is not in a graphic tee and a hoodie. But, Dave, you've seen such a transformation in IBM over the last couple of decades. >> Yeah, definitely. And I think this really does, in my view, cement, now, the legacy of Ginny Rometty, which was kinda hanging on Watson, and Cognitive, and this sort of bespoke set of capabilities, and the SoftLayer acquisition. It, now, all comes together. This is a major pivot by IBM. I think, strategically, it's the right move for IBM. And I think, if in fact, IBM can maintain Red Hat's independence and that posture, and maintain its culture and employee base, I think it does change the game for IBM. So I would say, smart move, good move. Expensive but probably worth it. >> Yeah, where else would they have put their money, Dave? >> Yeah, right. Alright, Stu, thank you very much for unpacking this announcement. And thank you for watching. We'll see you next time. (mellow electronic music)

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: Live from Vancouver, Canada. It's The Cube covering Openstack Summit, North America, 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, The Open Stack Foundation, and it's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to The Cube's coverage of Openstack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. I'm Stu Miniman with cohost of the week, John Troyer. Happy to welcome back to the program Stephan Fabel, who is the Director of Ubuntu product and development at Canonical. Great to see you. >> Yeah, great to be here, thank you for having me. Alright, so, boy, there's so much going on at this show. We've been talking about doing more things and in more places, is the theme that the Open Stack Foundation put into place, and we had a great conversation with Mark Shuttleworth, and going to dig in a little bit deeper in some of the areas with you. >> Stephan: Okay, absolutely. >> So we have the Cube, and we're go into all of the Kubernetes, Kubeflow, and all those other things that we'll mispronounce how they go. >> Stephan: Yes, yes, absolutely. >> What's your impression of the show first of all? >> Well I think that it's really, you know, there's a consolidation going on, right? I mean, we really have the people who are serious about open infrastructure here, serious about OpenStack. They're serious about Kubenetes. They want to implement, and they want to implement at a speed that fits the agility of their business. They want to really move quick with the obstrain release. I think the time for enterprise hardening delays an inertia there is over. I think people are really looking at the core of OpenStack, that's mature, it's stable, it's time for us to kind of move, get going, get success early, get it soon, then grow. I think most of the enterprise, most of the customers we talk to adopt that notion. >> One of the things that sometimes helps is help us lay out the stack a little bit here because we actually commented that some of the base infrastructure pieces we're not talking as much about because they're kind of mature, but OpenStack very much at the infrastructure level, your compute, storage, and network need to understand. But then we when we start doing things like Kubernetes as well, I can either do or, or on top of, and things like that, so give us your view as to what'd you put, what Canonical's seeing, and what customers-- how you lay out that stack? >> I think you're right, I think there's a little bit of path-finding here that needs to be done on the Kubernetes side, but ultimately, I think it's going to really converge around OpenStack being operative-centric, and operative-friendly, working and operating the infrastructure, scaling that out in a meaningful manner, providing multitenancy to all the different departments. Having Kubernetes be developer-centric and really help to on-board and accelerate the workload that option of the next gen initiatives, right? So, what we see is absolutely a use case for Kubernetes and OpenStack to work perfectly well together, be an extension of each other, possibly also sit next to each other without being too incumbenent there. But I think that ultimately having something like Kubernetes contain a based developer APIs that are providing that orchestration layer are the next thing, and they run just perfectly fine on Canonical OpenStack. >> Yeah, there certainly has been a lot of talk about that here at the show. Let's see, let's go a level above that, things we run on Kubernetes, I wanted to talk a little bit about ML and AI and Kubeflow. It seems like we're, I'd almost say that we're, this is like, if we were a movie, we're in a sequel like AI-5; this time, it's real. I really do see real enterprise applications incorporating these technologies into the workflow for what otherwise might be kind of boring, you know, line of business, can you talk a little bit about where we are in this evolution? >> You mean, John, only since we've been talking about it since the mid-1800s, so yeah. >> I was just about to point that out, I mean, AI's not new, right? We've seen it since about 60 years. It's been around for quite some time. I think that there is an unprecedented amount of sponsorship of new startups in this area, in this space, and there's a reason why this is heating up. I think the reason why ultimately it's there is because we're talking about a scale that's unprecedented, right? We thought the biggest problem we had with devices was going to be the IP addresses running out, and it turns out, that's not true at all, right? At a certain scale, and at a certain distributed nature of your rollout, you're going to have to deal with just such complexity and interaction between the underlying, the under-cloud, the over-cloud, the infrastructure, the developers. How do I roll this out? If I spin up 1000 BMs over here, why am I experiencing dropped calls over there? It's those types of things that need to be self-correlated. They need to be identified, they need to be worked out, so there's a whole operator angle just to be able to cope with that whole scenario. I think there's projects that are out there that are trying to ultimately address that, for example, Acumos (mumbles) Then, there is, of course, the new applications, right? Smart cities to connect to cars, all those car manufacturers who are, right now, faced with the problem: how do I deal with mobile, distributed inference rollout on the edge while still capturing the data continually, train my model, update, then again, distribute out to the edge to get a better experience. How do I catch up to some of the market leaders here that are out there? As the established car manufacturers are going to come and catch up, put more and more miles autonomously on the asphalt, we're going to basically have to deal with a whole lot more of proctization of machine-learning applications that just have to be managed at scale. And so we believe for all certain good company in that belief that having to manage large applications at scale, that containers and Kubernetes is a great way to do that, right? They did that for web apps. They did that for the next generation applications. This is one example where with the right operators in mind, the right CRDs, the right frameworks on top of Kubernetes managed correctly, you are actually in a great position to just go to market with that. >> I wonder if you might have a customer example that might go to walk us through kind of where they are in this discussion, talk to many companies, you know, the whole IOT even pieces were early in this. So what's actually real today, how much is planning, is this years we're talking before some of these really come to fruition? >> So yeah, I can't name a customer, but I can say that every single car manufacturer we're talking to is absolutely interested in solving the operational problem of running machine-learning frameworks as a service, making sure those are up running and up to speed at any given point in time, spin them up in a multitenant fashion, make sure that the GPU enablement is actually done properly at all layers of the virtualization. These are real operational challenges that they're facing today, and they're looking to solve with us. Pick a large car manufacturer you want. >> John: Nice. We're going down to something that I can type on my own keyboard then, and go to GitHub, right? That's one of the places to go where it is run, TensorFlow of machine-learning framework on Kubernetes is Kubeflow, and that little bit yesterday on stage, you want to talk about that maybe? >> Oh, absolutely, yes. That's the core of our current strategy right now. We're looking at Kubeflow as one of the key enablers of machine-learning frameworks as a service on top of Kubernetes, and I think they're a great example because they can really show how that as a service can be implemented on top of a virtualization platform, whether that be KVM, pure KVM, on bare metal, on OpenStack, and actually provide machine-learning frameworks such as TensorFlow, Pipe Torch, Seldon Core. You have all those frameworks being supported, and then basically start mix and matching. I think ultimately it's so interesting to us because the data scientists are really not the ones that are expected to manage all this, right? Yet they are the core of having to interact with it. In the next generation of the workloads, we're talking to PHDs and data scientists that have no interest whatsoever in understanding how all of this works on the back end, right? They just want to know this is where I'm going to submit my artifact that I'm creating, this is how it works in general. Companies pay them a lot of money to do just that, and to just do the model because that's where, until the right model is found, that is exactly where the value is. >> So Stephan, does Canonical go talk to the data scientists, or is there a class of operators who are facilitating the data scientists? >> Yes, we talk to the data scientists who understand their problems, we talk to the operators to understand their problems, and then we work with partners such as Google to try and find solutions to that. >> Great, what kind of conversations are you having here at the show? I can't imagine there's too many of those, great to hear if there are, but where are they? I think everybody here knows containers, very few know Kubernetes, and how far up the stack of building new stuff are they? >> You'd be surprised, I mean, we put this out there, and so far, I want to say the majority of the customer conversations we've had took an AI turn and said, this is what we're trying to do next year, this is what we're trying to do later in the year, this is what we're currently struggling with. So glad you have an approach because otherwise, we would spend a ton of time thinking about this, a ton of time trying to solve this in our own way that then gets us stuck in some deep end that we don't want to be. So, help us understand this, help us pave the way. >> John: Nice, nice. I don't want to leave without talking also about Microcades, that's a Kubernetes snap, you code some clojure download, Can we talk a little bit about that? >> Yeah, glad to. This was an idea that we conceived that came out of this notion of alright, well if I do have, talking to a data scientist, if I do have a data scientist, where does he start? >> Stu: Does Kubernetes have a learning curve to date? >> It does, yeah, it does. So here's the thing, as a developer, you have, what options do you have right when you get started? You can either go out and get a community stood up on one of the public clouds, but what if you're in the plane, right? You don't have a connection, you want to work on your local laptop. Possibly, that laptop also has a GPU, and you're a data scientist and you want to try this out because you know you're going to submit this training job now to a (mumbles) that runs un-prem behind the firewall with a limited training set, right? This is the situation we're talking about. So ultimately, the motivation for creating Microcades was we want to make this very, very equivalent. Now you can deploy Kubeflow on top of Microcades today, and it'll run just fine. You get your TensorBoard, you have Jupyter notebook, and you can do your work, and you can do it in a fashion that will then be compatible to your on-prem and public machine-learning framework. So that was your original motivation for why we went down this road, but then we noticed you know what, this is actually a wider need. People are thinking about local Kubernetes in many different ways. There are a couple of solutions out there. They tend to be cumbersome, or more cumbersome than developers would like it. So we actually said, you know, maybe we should turn this into a more general purpose solution. So hence, Microcades. It works like a snap on your machine, you kick that off, you have Kubernetes API, and under 30 seconds or little longer if your download speed plays a factor here, you enable DNS and you're good to go. >> Stephan, I just want to give you the opportunity, is there anything in the Queens Release that your customers have been specifically waiting for or any other product announcements before we wrap? >> Sure, we're very excited about the Queens Release. We think Queens Release is one of the great examples of the maturity of the code base and really the knot towards the operator, and that, I think was the big challenge beyond the olden days of OpenStack where the operators took a long time for the operators to be heard, and to establish that conversation. We'd like to say and to see that OpenStack Queens has matured in that respect, and we like things like Octavia. We're very exciting about (mumbles) as a service, taking its own life and being treated as a first-class citizen. I think that it was a great decision of the community to get on that road. We're supporting as a part of our distribution. >> Alright, well, appreciate the update. Really fascinating to hear about all, you know, everybody's thinking about it and really starting to move on all the ML and AI stuff. Alright, for John Troyer, I'm Tru Miniman. Lots more coverage here from OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. Thanks for watching The Cube. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live, fro-- >> Announcer: Live from Vancouver, Canada it's theCUBE! Covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation, and it's ecosystem partners. >> Hi and welcome to SiliconANGLE Media's production of theCUBE here at OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. I'm Stu Miniman with my cohost, John Troyer. We're here for three days of live wall-to-wall coverage at the OpenStack Foundation's show they have it twice a year John, pleasure to be with you again, you and I were together at the OpenStack show in Boston, a year ago, little bit further trip for me. But views like this, I'm not complaining. >> It's a great time to be in Vancouver, little bit overcast but the convention center's beautiful and the people seem pretty excited as well. >> Yeah so if you see behind us, the keynote let out. So John, we got to get into the first question of course for some reason the last month people are always Hey Stu where are you, what're you doing and when I walk through the various shows I'm doing when it comes to this one they're like, why are you going to the OpenStack show? You know, what's going on there, hasn't that been replaced by everything else? >> I got the same thing, there seems to be kind of a almost an antireligious thing here in the industry maybe more emotional perhaps at other projects. Although frankly look, we're going to take the temperature of the community, we're going to take the temperature of the projects, the customers, we got a lot of customers here, that's really the key here is that our people actually using this, being productive, functional, and is there enough of a vendor and a community ecosystem to make this go forward. >> Absolutely, so three years ago, when we were actually here in Vancouver, the container sessions were overflowing, people sitting in the aisles. You know containers, containers, containers, docker, docker, docker, you know, we went through a year or two of that. Then Kubernetes, really a wave that has taken over, this piece of the infrastructure stack, the KubeCon and CloudNativeCon shows, in general, I think have surpassed this size, but as we know in IT, nothing ever dies, everything is always additive, and a theme that I heard here that definitely resonated is, we have complexity, we need to deal with interoperability, everybody has a lot of things and that's the, choose your word, hybrid, multi-cloud world that you have, and that's really the state of opensource, it's not a thing, it's there's lots of things you take all the pieces you need and you figure out how to put 'em together, either buy them from a platform, you have some integrator that helps, so somebody that puts it all together, and that's where, you know, we live here, which is, by they way, I thought they might rename the show in the open, and they didn't, but there's a lot of pieces to discuss. >> Definitely an open infrastructure movement, we'll probably talk about that, look I loved the message this morning that the cloud is not consolidating, in fact it's getting more complicated, and so that was a practical message here, it's a little bit of a church of opensource as well, so the open message was very well received and, these are the people that are working on it, of course, but yeah, the fact that, like last year I thought in Boston, there was a lot of, almost confusion around containers, and where containers and Kubernetes fit in the whole ecosystem, I think, now in this year in 2018 it's a lot more clear and OpenStack as a project, or as a set of projects, which traditionally was, the hit on it was very insular and inward facing, has at least, is trying to become outward facing, and again that's something we'll be looking at this week, and how well will they integrate with other opensource projects. >> I mean John, you and I are both big supporters of the opensource movements, love the community at shows like this, but not exclusively, it's, you know, Amazon participating a little bit, using a lot of opensource, they take opensource and make it as a service, you were at Red Hat Summit last week, obviously huge discussion there about everything opensource, everything, so a lot going on there, let me just set for, first of all the foundation itself in this show, the thing that I liked, coming into it, one of the things we're going to poke at is, if I go up to the highest level, OpenStack is not the only thing here, they have a few tracks they have an Edge computer track, they have a container track, and there's a co-resident OpenDev Show happening a couple floors above us and, even from what the OpenStack Foundation manages, yes it OpenStack's the main piece of it, and all those underlying projects but, they had Katacontainers, which is, you know, high level project, and the new one is Zuul, talking about CI/CD, so there are things that, will work with OpenStack but not exclusively for OpenStack, might not even come from OpenStack, so those are things that we're seeing, you know, for example, I was at the Veeam show last week, and there was a software company N2WS that Veeam had bought, and that solution only worked on Amazon to start and, you know, I was at the Nutanix show the week before, and there's lots of things that start in the Amazon environment and then make their way to the on-premises world so, we know it's a complex world, you know, I agree with you, the cloud is not getting simpler, remember when cloud was: Swipe the credit card and it's super easy, the line I've used a lot of times is, it is actually more complicated to buy, quote, a server equivalent, in the public could, than it is if I go to the website and have something that's shipped to my data center. >> It's, yeah, it's kind of ironic that that's where we've ended up. You know, we'll see, with Zuul, it'll be very interesting, one of the hits again on OpenStack has been reinvention of the wheel, like, can you inter-operate with other projects rather than doing it your self, it sounds like there's some actually, some very interesting aspects to it, as a CI/CD system, and certainly it uses stuff like Ansible so it's, it's built using opensource components, but, other opensource components, but you know, what does this give us advantage for infrastructure people, and allowing infrastructure to go live in a CI/CD way, software on hardware, rather than, the ones that've been built from the dev side, the app side. I'm assuming there's good reasons, or they wouldn't've done it, but you know, we'll see, there's still a lot of projects inside the opensource umbrella. >> Yeah, and, you know, last year we talked about it, once again, we'll talk about it here, the ecosystem has shifted. There are some of the big traditional infrastructure companies, but what they're talking about has changed a lot, you know. Remember a few years ago, it was you know, HP, thousand people, billion dollar investment, you know, IBM has been part of OpenStack since the very beginning days, but it changes, even a company like Rackspace, who helped put together this environment, the press release that went was: oh, we took all the learnings that we did from OpenStack, and this is our new Kubernetes service that we have, something that I saw, actually Randy Bias, who I'll have on the show this week, was on, the first time we did this show five years ago, can't believe it's the sixth year we're doing the show, Randy is always an interesting conversation to poke some of the sacred cows, and, I'll use that analogy, of course, because he is the one that Pets vs Cattle analogy, and he said, you know, we're spending a lot of time talking about it's not, as you hear, some game, between OpenStack and Kubernetes, containers are great, isn't that wonderful. If we're talking about that so much, maybe we should just like, go do that stuff, and not worry about this, so it'll be fun to talk to him, the Open Dev Show is being, mainly, sponsored by Mirantis who, last time I was here in Vancouver was the OpenStack company, and now, like, I saw them a year ago, and they were, the Kubernetes company, and making those changes, so we'll have Boris on, and get to find out these companies, there's not a lot of ECs here, the press and analysts that are here, most of us have been here for a lot of time so, this ecosystem has changed a lot, but, while attendance is down a little bit, from what I've heard, from previous years, there's still some good energy, people are learning a lot. >> So Stu, I did want to point out, that something I noticed on the stage, that I didn't see, was a lot of infrastructure, right? OpenStack, clearly an infrastructure stack, I think we've teased that out over the past couple years, but I didn't see a lot of talk about storage subsystems, networking, management, like all the kind of, hard, infrastructure plumbing, that actually, everybody here does, as well as a few names, so that was interesting, but at the end of the day, I mean, you got to appeal to the whole crowd here. >> Yeah, well one of the things, we spent a number of years making that stuff work, back when it was, you know, we're talkin' about gettin' Cinder, and then all the storage companies lined up with their various, do we support it, is it fully integrated, and then even further, does it actually work really well? So, same stuff that went through, for about a decade, in virtualization, we went through this in OpenStack, we actually said a couple years ago, some of the basic infrastructure stuff has gotten boring, so we don't need to talk about it anymore. Ironic, it's actually the non-virtualized environments, that's the project that they have here, we have a lot of people who are talking bare metal, who are talking containers, so that has shifted, an interesting one in the keynote is that you had the top level sponsors getting up there, Intel bringing around a lot of their ecosystem partners, talking about Edge, talking about the telecommunications, Red Hat, giving a recap of what they did last week at their summit, they've got a nice cadence, the last couple of years, they've done Red Hat Summit, and OpenStack Summit, back-to-back so that they can get that flow of information through, and then Mark Shuttleworth, who we'll have on a little bit later today, he came out puchin', you know, he started with some motherhood in Apple Pi about how Ubuntu is everywhere but then it was like, and we're going to be so much cheaper, and we're so much easier than the VMwares and Red Hats of the world, and there was a little push back from the community, that maybe that wasn't the right platform to do it. >> Yeah, I think the room got kind of cold, I mean, that's kind of a church in there, right, and everyone is an opensource believer and, this kind of invisible hand of capitalism (laughs) reached in and wrote on the wall and, you know, having written and left. But at the end of the day, right, somebody's got to pay for babies new shoes. I think that it was also very interesting seeing, at Red Hat Summit, which I covered on theCUBE, Red Hat's argument was fairly philosophical, and from first principles. Containers are Linux, therefore Red Hat, and that was logically laid out. Mark's, actually I loved Mark's, most of his speech, which was very practical, this, you know, Ubuntu's going to make both OpenStack and containers simpler, faster, quicker, and cheaper, so it was clearly benefits, and then, for the folks that don't know, then he put up a couple a crazy Eddy slides like, limited time offer, if you're here at the show, here's a deal that we've put together for ya, so that was a little bit unusual for a keynote. >> Yeah, and there are a lot of users here, and some of them'll hear that and they'll say: yeah, you know, I've used Red Hat there but, you can save me money that's awesome, let me find out some more about it. Alright, so, we've got three days of coverage here John, and we get to cover this really kind of broad ecosystem that we have here. You talked about what we don't discuss anymore, like the major lease was Queens, and it used to be, that was where I would study up and be like oh okay, we've got Hudson, and then we got, it was the letters of the alphabet, what's the next one going to be and what are the major features it's reached a certain maturity level that we're not talking the release anymore, it's more like the discussions we have in cloud, which is sometimes, here's some of the major things, and oh yeah, it just kind of wraps itself in. Deployments still, probably aren't nearly as easy as we'd like, Shuttleworth said two guys in under two weeks, that's awesome, but there's solutions we can put, stand up much faster than that now, two weeks is way better than some of the historical things we've done, but it changes quite a bit. So, telecommunications still a hot topic, Edge is something, you know what I think back, it was like, oh, all those NFE conversations we've had here, it's not just the SDN changes that are happening, but this is the Edge discussion for the Telcos, and something people were getting their arms around, so. >> It's pretty interesting to think of the cloud out on telephone poles, and in branch offices, in data centers, in closets basically or under desks almost. >> No self-driving cars on the keynote stage though? >> No, nothing that flashy this year. >> No, definitely not too flashy so, the foundation itself, it's interesting, we've heard rumors that maybe the show will change name, the foundation will not change names. So I want to give you last things, what're you looking for this week, what were you hearing from the community leading up to the show that you want to validate or poke at? >> Well, I'm going to look at real deployments, I'd like to see how standard we are, if we are, if an OpenStack deployment is standardized enough that the pool of talent is growing, and that if I hire people from outside my company who work with OpenStack, I know that they can work with my OpenStack, I think that's key for the continuation of this ecosystem. I want to look at the general energy and how people are deploying it, whether it does become really invisible and boring, but still important. Or do you end up running OpenShift on bare metal, which I, as an infrastructure person, I just can't see that the app platform should have to worry about all this infrastructure stuff, 'cause it's complicated, and so, I'll just be looking for the healthy productions and production deployments and see how that goes. >> Yeah, and I love, one of the things that they started many years ago was they have a super-user category, where they give an award, and I'm excited, we have actually have the Ontario Institute for Cancer Research is one of our guests on today, they won the 2018 super-user group, it's always awesome when you see, not only it's like, okay, CERN's here, and they're doing some really cool things looking for the Higgs boson, and all those kind of things but, you know, companies that are using technology to help them attack the battle against cancer, so, you know, you can't beat things like that. We've got the person from the keynote, Melvin, who was up on stage talking about the open lab, you know, community, ecosystem, definitely something that resonates, I know, one of the reasons I pulled you into this show in the last year is you're got a strong background there. >> Super impressed by all the community activity, this still feels like a real community, lots of pictures of people, lots of real, exhortations from stage to like, we who have been here for years know each other, please come meet us, so that's a real sign of also, a healthy community dynamic. >> Alright, so John first of all, I want to say, Happy Victoria Day, 'cause we are here in Vancouver, and we've got a lot going on here, it's a beautiful venue, hope you all join us for all of the coverage here, and I have to give a big shout out to the companies that allowed this to happen, we are independent media, but we can't survive without the funding of our sponsors so, first of all the OpenStack Foundation, helps get us here, and gives us this lovely location overlooking outside, but if it wasn't for the likes of our headline sponsor Red Hat as well as Canonical, Kontron, and Nuage Networks, we would not be able to bring you this content so, be sure to checkout thecube.net for all the coverage, for John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, thanks so much for watching theCUBE. 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>> Announcer: Live from Copenhagen, Denmark, it's the CUBE, covering KubeCon and Cloud Native Con Europe 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. (busy music) >> Welcome back, everyone, live here in Copenhagen, Denmark, it's the CUBE's coverage of KubeCon 2018. I'm John Furrier, the host of the CUBE, along with Lauren Cooney, who's the founder of Spark Labs. She's been co-host with me two days, two days of wall to wall coverage. Stephan Fabel, Product Strategy Lead at Canonical, is here inside the CUBE, and from San Francisco. Again, welcome to the CUBE, thanks for coming. >> Thank you, thanks so much for having me. >> I've got to, you guys have been around the block, you know about open source software platforms, you get and do it for a while. Interesting time here at KubeCon. Kubernetes, Istio, Kubeflow, Cloud Native, they've still got the brand name CloudNativeCon and KubeCon. Modern application architecture's now in play. I see this notion of an interoperability model coming in that's certainly going to be a de facto standard. People are already kind of declaring it a de facto standard. It really shows a path to multi-cloud, but also frees up developers from a lot of the heavy lifting. Lou Tucker from Cisco was saying they don't want to do networking. Let's just have that be infrastructure as code, that's DevOps, that's what we want. >> Stephan: That is exactly right. >> What are you guys doing here? What's the story with Canonical and how does that fit into the megatrends? >> Yeah, I mean, there's a couple of things that we at Canonical always believe to be one of the core sort of tenets in our distribution of Kubernetes. As you know, we've been very active in this space fairly early on, and have been an active distributor of Kubernetes and a certified distributor of our version of Kubernetes. Pure upstream, remain conformant to the main public clouds, such as to enable that workload migration and mobility from on prem up to any of the other providers to accommodate all kinds of use cases, right. >> You guys made a bet on Kubernetes, obviously, good call. >> Stephan: Right. >> Right. What's the progress now, what's next? Because that's, the bets are paying off. I saw Red Hat had a great bet with what they did with Kubernetes, changed what OpenShift became. You guys had a bet in Kubernetes, what has that become for Canonical? >> Yeah, so based on the pure upstream distribution that we have, we really feel that enabling the ecosystem in a standards compliant way so that all of the landscape projects that are part of the CNCF can be deployed on top of Kubernetes, on top of our distribution of Kubernetes in just the same way that they would be developed or deployed in any of the large containers of service offerings that are out there is one of the big benefits that our customers would gain from using our Kubernetes. >> What's your differentiator for the distribution of Kubernetes that you have versus others? >> Well, there's two. The first one, I think, is the notion that deploying Kubernetes on premise is something that you want to do in a repeatable fashion, operationally efficient with the right capex opex mix, so we believe that there is a place for Kubernetes as a product, just deploy it, it works on any substrate that you've got available to you. But then also, for mainstream America, right, you may want to have a managed service on top of Kubernetes as well. We offer that, too, just a way to get started and kick the tires and see where that takes you as far as the developers are concerned. Now, on prem, you will find that there are a couple of challenges when deploying Kubernetes that are really the key differentiator. The first one, I would say, is things like integration into the storage that's local, integration into the network that's local, and integration into all of those services that should be available in the Cloud Native microservices architecture platform, such as low bouncers, right, elasticity, object store, etc. The second, and most importantly, because it is a key enabler for those next generation workloads, is the GPGPU enablement work that we're doing with partners such as NVIDIA. When you deploy the Canonical distribution of Kubernetes, you actually get the NVIDIA acceleration out of the box the way that NVIDIA envisions this on top of Kubernetes and the way that it is, by the way, being deployed on the public clouds. >> You bring a lot of your goodness to the table inside the Kubernetes distribution. OK, what are some customers doing? Give some use cases of some customers' Kubernetes, what are some of the things that they're doing with it, what's the early indication? What's the feedback? >> Sure. We have a ton of customers that are using our version of Kubernetes to do the machine learning applications and the AI of the next gen workloads in use cases such as smart cities or connected cars, where, when you look at self-driving cars, right, as the next gen that's coming out of the valley, they put in 300,000, 150,000, 400,000 miles a year on the road these days just optimizing the models that are being used to actually take over one day. Enabling those kinds of workloads in a distributed fashion requires DevOps expertise. Now, the people who are actually writing those applications are not DevOps people, they're data scientists, right. They shouldn't have to learn how to deploy Kubernetes, how to create a container and all those things. They should just be able to deploy the application on top an attractive substrate that actually supports that distributed application use case, and so that is where we come in. >> This is interesting, because what you're basically doing is making an application developer a DevOps developer overnight. >> Stephan: That's exactly right. >> That's really important. I was just talking with the co-chair of CNCF. We're talking about, Liz Rice and I were talking about why everyone's so, like, excited here. One of the things I said was, because people who are doing DevOps were hardcore, and they had to build everything from scratch, and all the scar tissue. But the benefits, once you got through the knothole there, the benefits were amazing, right. You go, okay, you don't want to do that again, but now there's a way to make it easier. There's kind of a shared experience even though no one's met each other, so there's kind of a joint community. >> I agree. I think it is increasingly about enabling developers who are experts in their field to actually leverage Kubernetes and the advantages that it brings in a more intuitive fashion. Just take it up a notch. >> How did the Kubernetes vibe integrate in with Canonical? I'm sure, given the background of the company, it probably was a nice fit, people embraced it. You guys were early. >> Stephan: Yeah. >> What's the internal scuttlebutt on the vibe with Kubernetes? >> Oh, we love Kubernetes as a technology. Ubuntu was always close to the developer and close to where the innovation happens. It was a natural fit to actually support all that workflow now in this new world of Kubernetes. We embraced OpenStack for the same reason, and in a similar fashion, Kubernetes has really driven the point home, containerist applications with a powerful orchestration framework such as Kubernetes are the next step for all the developers that are out there, and so as a consequence, this was a perfect match. >> It's also a no-brainer if you think about it, software methodology moving to the next level. This is total step up function for productivity for developers. That's really a key thing. What's your observation of that trend? Because at the end of the day, there's now Kubernetes, which does a lot of great things, but one of the hottest areas is Istio service meshes, and then you've got Kubeflow orchestration, a lot of other things that are happening around Kubernetes. What are you guys seeing that's important for Canonical's customers, what you're doing product wise. Where's the order of operations, what's next? What are you guys focused on, what's the priorities? >> Well, our biggest priority right now is enabling things like Kubeflow, which, by the way, are also using Istio internally, right, to actually enable those data scientists who actually deploy their I workload. We work very closely with Google to try and enable this in an on prem fashion out of the box which is something you can actually do today. >> John: You guys are doing this now inside this. >> We're doing this right now. This is also where we're going to double and triple down. >> This is actually your best practice, too, if you think about it, you want to take it in house, and then get a feel for it. What's the internal vibe on that, positive? >> Oh, absolutely. I mean, we always saw infrastructure as code and actually as intelligent infrastructure as something that we wanted to build our conceptual framework around, so very concretely, right. We've always had this notion of composable building blocks adding up to, sum of one being greater than two, right, like those types of scenarios. Actually using things like Kubernetes as an effective building block to then build out web applications that use things like machine learning algorithms underneath, that's a perfect use case for a next gen workload, and also something that we might use ourselves internally. >> Well, hey, that whole building block thing, it's happening. >> Stephan: Yeah. >> News flash. >> Stephan: Exactly, right? >> I mean, it's almost a pinch me moment for the people in the industry like, oh my god, it's going to go to a whole other level. How do you guys envision that next level going? Beyond the building blocks, is it, I mean, what's the vision that you guys have? Obviously, infrastructure as code programmability, but now, you're talking about infrastructure as code was great, but now you've got microservices growth coming on top of it, it's a services market now. >> It is, it is. I think that the biggest challenge will be the distribution of the workloads, right. You have edge compute coming along in the telco space, you have, like I said, smart cities, right, the sensors will be everywhere, and they will feed data back, and how do you manage that at scale, right? How do you manage that across various different hardware perspectives? We have hardware platforms such as ARM 64 picking up, right, and actually playing a very significant role at the edge, and increasingly, even in the core. We've always believed that providing that software and the distribution of IS such as Kubernetes and others on top of those additional architectures would make a huge difference, and that is clearly paying off. What we see is, the increased need of managing hybrid workloads across multi-cloud scenarios that could be composed of different architectures, not just x86, the future is not homogeneous at all. It'll be all over the place. All those use cases and all those particular situation require that building block principle, like all the way from the OS up to the application. >> John: That's a great use case for containers. Kubernetes, Istio, Kubeflow. >> Absolutely. >> All stacking in line beautifully from an evolution standpoint. I've got to ask you a personal question. I mean, I was at Canonical, great company, I want to thank Canonical for being a sponsor of the CUBE over the years. We've had Mark Shuttleworth on the CUBE had an OpenStack going way back when. You guys are a great participant in the community as a company and the people there been phenomenal. You're new. >> I'm new. >> What attracted you to Canonical? What was the motivating force? What drew you in? You're now running Products, a big job. You've got a lot in front of you. Obviously, it's a great market, so you're a great company. Just share, just color and why Canonical, what attracted you there? >> I've always been a user of Ubuntu, I've been a user since the first hour. I've used Ubuntu in my research. I did robotics based on Ubuntu way before it was cool. I built all kinds of things on top of Ubuntu throughout my entire career. Working for Canonical, which is a company that always exhibited great vision into the future and great predictions into trends that would prove to become true was just, for me, something that was very attractive. >> Their leadership has a good eye on the prize. They had good 20 mile stare, as we say, they can see the roadmap ahead and then make either course corrections or tweaks. >> Yeah. >> Great, awesome. Well, I mean, what's new there? What's your, take a minute to explain what's new at Canonical, role here at KubeCon, what are some of the conversations you're having? >> Yeah, so I mean, for us at KubeCon, it's always been an important part of our outreach to the community, great opportunity for us to have great conversations with our partners in the field. I think it is really about enabling the ecosystem in a more straightforward way. There's no better place to have those types of conversations than here, where everybody comes together and really establishes those relationships. For us, it is about, again, enabling the developer and really staying close to that innovation and supporting that in an optimal way. Yes, I mean, that, to us, is the role that we play. You've got a lot of end users here who are building stuff. >> Oh, absolutely, yeah. They, I mean, I had a talk today about Kubeflow with Google, and after the talk, lots of folks came up to me and said, hey, how can I use this at home, right? >> Sometimes with, whether it's timing, technology, all the above, Kubernetes really hit it strong with the timing, industry was ready for it. Containers had a nice gestation period. People know about containers. >> Stephan: Absolutely. >> Engineers know containers, know about those kinds of concepts. Now we're at a whole other operating environment. >> Stephan: Absolutely. >> You guys are at the forefront. Thanks for coming on the CUBE. >> Oh, thank you, I appreciate it. >> Stephan sharing the perspective, Stephan Fabel. Running Product and Strategy for Canonical, building stuff, this is what's going on in Kubernetes in KubeCon, end users are actually building and orchestrating workloads. Multi-cloud is what people are talking about and the tech to make it happen is here. I'm John Furrier with the CUBE. Stay with us for more live coverage here at KubeCon 2018, part of the CNCF CUBE coverage. We'll be right back after this short break. (busy music)

(upbeat music) >> Narrator: Live from Boston, Massachusetts it's The CUBE covering OpenStack Summit 2017, brought to you by the OpenStack Foundation, Red Hat, an additional ecosystem of support. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman with my co-host John Troyer. Happy to welcome back to the program. It's been a couple of years but Mark Baker, who is the Ubuntu Product Manager for OpenStack at Canonical. Thanks so much for joining us. >> Oh, you're welcome, it's a pleasure to be back on. >> All right so you said you've been coming to these shows for over six years now. You sit on the OpenStack Foundation. We've been talking this week. There's all that fuzz and misinformation and God what does (faint) say this morning? It's like fear is one of the most powerful weapons out there. Sometimes there's just misinformation out there but for you, OpenStack today where you see it in general and in your role with Canonical? >> Sure so OpenStack is one of the cornerstones of our business. It's certainly a big revenue generator for us. We continue to grow customers in that space, and that mirrors what we see in the OpenStack community. So all of the numbers you'll have seen in the OpenStack survey showed that adoption continues to grow. Sure, there is, I don't know if I want to call it fake news out there but there's definitely a meme is going that okay, OpenStack is perhaps declining in popularity. That's not what we see in adoption. We see adoption continuing to grow, more customers coming onto the platform, more revenue is coming from those customers. >> Yeah Mark any data you can share? We did have we had Heidi Joy on from the foundation to talk about the survey. I mean big you know adoption over 74% of deployments are outside of the US. We talked to Mark and Jonathan this morning. They said well that's where more than 74% of the population of the world lives outside of the US on any trends or data points specifically about a bunch of customers. >> Sure so we we definitely have big customers outside the US. You look at perhaps one of our best well-known is Deutsche Telekom, obviously a global telco that's situated in Europe that's deploying OpenStack. Really at the core of their network and I was going into multiple countries, and we see not only more customers but also those existing customers growing their estate and we've got other engagements as well in the Nordics with Tele2, another telco that has a larger stake too. And increasingly out in Asia too. So we definitely see this as being a global trend towards adoption. >> All right and Mark, there was you know for years, it was okay. How many distributions are there out there? How many do we need on out there? Why do customers turn to Ubuntu when they want OpenStack? >> So the challenge of operating infrastructure is scale. It's not can I deploy it? It's not so much even you know how performant is it? It's really kind of boils down to economics, and a large part of that economics is how are you able to operate that cloud efficiently? We've proven time and time again that a lot of the work that we've put in since the very beginning around tooling, around operations is what allows people to stand up these clouds, operate them at scale, upgrade them, apply patches, do all of those things but operate them efficiently at scale without having to scale the number of staff they require to operate that cloud, yeah. >> I think back to the staff that's been around for at least 15 years is company spent 70 or 80% or even more of their budget on keeping the lights on, running around the data center doing that. Anything you could tell us about OpenStack and how that shifts those economics for the data center? >> Sure, so OpenStack has gone through a typical sort of evolution that many technologies go through and we liken it to Linux obviously, we're a Linux company. In the beginning with Linux many people would build their own distributions, they'd compile their own kernels, they'd make modifications. A lot of the big lighthouse users of OpenStack went through that process. We are seeing the adoption changing now. So people are coming to companies like us with an OpenStack distribution that's off-the-shelf, ready and packaged with reference architectures, proven methodologies for implementing this successfully, and consuming it much more like that. Without that package, this free software can actually be very expensive to operate. So you have to get getting those economics right comes from having those packages for people to be able to deploy, manage it and scale it efficiently on-site. >> So you've been involved with OpenStack throughout the whole evolution. Is there anything you see now and 2017 at this summit? This is my first summit. I'm very impressed as an outsider. Again, we started off talking about what you hear from the outside, talking to people here at the show, people standing up their very first clouds this year, very bullish very kind of conscious of okay this is a, this is not a winner-take-all world. There's a place for OpenStack. >> Mark: Yeap. That's actually very kind of clear and very well fit. Do you see a difference in the customers that are you're working with now in 2017, their maturity level, their expectations than perhaps you did a few years ago? >> So yes certainly, customers have complex and diverse requirements, and so they want to deliver different styles of applications in different ways, and OpenStack is a great way of delivering machines, whether it's virtual machines or container machines to applications and provides a very robust and agile environment for doing that. But other styles of application may require to run natively on Bare Metal. OpenStack can do some of that, and do a lot of that but we're seeing, certainly seeing customers understanding okay, OpenStack has a role, public cloud has a role, container technologies have a role. A lot of these intersect together. Then it's really our objective is to help them whether they're choosing container platforms and OpenStack, whether they're using public cloud to ensure that they're able to manage this in an efficient way to deliver value to their business. >> You talked about operability and we talked with Mark Shuttleworth. He was also, we were marking that Ubuntu, the operating system is by far the majority choice in OpenStack and in a lot of cloud projects. Can you talk a little bit more about operability? Again the traditional dig from outside the project a few years ago science project, hard to use, need to have computer scientists to even get it running, which as a former Linux person myself, I think I find that a little bit insulting. It's rocket science but it's not that, it's not that complicated. >> (faint) Were involved in the beginning. >> That is true. But can you just talk a little bit about operability in terms of getting what you're seeing, in terms of either private cloud or at people standing up, the operations team needed, the maintainability day to day operation, that sort of thing in a modern OpenStack environment? >> Yeah, so OpenStack is becoming, certainly a lot of the enterprise customers that we're working with now is becoming another platform that will sit alongside the VMware. There may be some intersection of that. Our goal is to have common operations. So if I want to deploy applications into containers, I could do that in to Kubernetes or just running on VMware, I could do that on OpenStack, I could do it in public cloud to have common tooling and common operations across as much of the estate as we can because that's where I'll get efficiencies. It's where I'll get smart economics and smart operations. So well definitely, people are looking for those solutions. They know they're going to have diverse environments. They're looking for commonality that runs across those diverse environments and Ubuntu provides a great deal of commonality across. >> Mark, can you speak to Canonical's involvement in some of the projects? I know you have a lot of contributors but where particularly did your company spend the most focus? >> So, OpenStack, the initial challenge with OpenStack was to deliver capability and functionality. Canonical was one of those contributors in the early days. It was helping drive new features, helping drive new capabilities in OpenStack. More or less, we've switched to addressing that operations problem. There are many clouds out there that's stuck on older versions. For OpenStack to succeed as it moves forward, we need to be able to show you can upgrade gracefully without service interruption. We're demonstrating that with customers. So a lot of the work that we've been doing is how we streamline these operations, how we crowdsource, if you like, best practice for operating these clouds of scale to deliver efficient value to the business. >> Oh, another interesting conversation here at the show has been about containers. >> Yeah. >> Both Kubernetes and I know Canonical been involved with with Alex D. So can you talk a little bit about the interrelation of containers with OpenStack and how you're seeing that play out? >> Yes, absolutely so containers is all over OpenStack. We do smile somewhat when people talk about containers being a new thing with OpenStack as we've been deploying OpenStack inside LXD containers for several years now. So many of our customers are running containerized OpenStack today in production but this there's certainly this great intersection of that running Kubernetes on top of OpenStack. For example, we're seeing a lot of interest in that. We deploy, as they say, our OpenStack services in containers to give flexibility around architectural choices. We're very happy to run Canonical's distribution of kubernetes inside of OpenStack, which we do, and say have customers doing that. So there are also people looking at how you can containerize control plane in other ways. We're certainly keeping tabs on that, and you know exploring that with some customers but containers are all across the OpenStack ecosystem. They're not competitive. They're very much sort of building a higher level of value for customers so they have choice in how they deploy their applications. >> All right, Mark anything new this week surprised you or any interesting conversations that you'd want to share? >> So I came into this knowing that there was going to be a lot of discussion around containerized applications in OpenStack and containers perhaps, and the control plane. The thing that has surprised me actually has been the speed with which people are looking at OpenStack for edge cloud. Cloud on the edge, it's kind of a telco thing but cloud on the edge is how I can deliver capabilities and services, infrastructure services in an environment, in a mobile environment, it could be attached to a cell phone mask for example. It's not a traditional big data center but you need to deliver content and data out to mobile devices. So there's a lot of discussion especially today, within the telco community here at OpenStack Summit about how OpenStack can deliver those kinds of capabilities on the edge. That's been interesting and a surprise for me to see how quickly it's come up. >> All right Mark, want to give you the final word as to what you want people taking way of Ubuntu's participation in OpenStack. >> Well, some of this talk about OpenStack you know is it had its day in the sun, there are other things now taking over. You need to I think people out there will need to understand that OpenStack is deeply embedded inside big companies like AT&T, and like Deutsche Telekom. It's going to be there for a decade or more, right. So OpenStack is definitely here to stay. We continue to see our business growing. The number of customers Canonical is working with deploying OpenStack continues to grow. Ubuntu as a platform for OpenStack continues to grow. So it's definitely going to be part of the infrastructure as we roll forward. Yes, you'll see it working more in conjunction with those container technologies and application platforms. Parsers for example but it's here. It's just no longer quite the bright new shiny thing it used to be. It's kind of getting to be part of regular infrastructure. >> All right, well Mark not everything could be as bright and shiny as the Ubuntu orange shirt. So thank you so much for joining us again. We'll be back with more coverage here. From Boston, Massachusetts, you're watching The CUBE. (upbeat music)