>>Hello friends and welcome back to Fabulous Las Vegas, Nevada, where we are live from the show floor at AWS Reinvent. My name is Savannah Peterson, joined by my fabulous co-host John Furrier. John, how was your lunch? >>My lunch was great. Wasn't very complex like it is today, so it was very easy, >>Appropriate for the conversation we're about >>To have. Great, great guests coming up Cube alumni and great question around complexity and how is wellbeing teams be good? >>Yes. And, and and on that note, let's welcome John from DeWit as well as Danny from Inox. I swear I'll be able to say that right by the end of this. Thank you guys so much for being here. How's the show going for you? >>Excellent so far. It's been a great, a great event. You know, back back to pre Covid days, >>You're still smiling day three. That's an awesome sign. John, what about you? >>Fantastic. It's, it's been busier than ever >>That that's exciting. I, I think we certainly feel that way here on the cube. We're doing dozens of videos, it's absolutely awesome. Just in case. So we can dig in a little deeper throughout the rest of the segment just in case the audience isn't familiar, let's get them acquainted with your companies. Let's start with do it John. >>Yeah, thanks Savannah. So do it as a global technology company and we're partnering with deleted cloud providers around the world and digital native companies to provide value and solve complexity. John, to your, to your introductory point with all of the complexities associated with operating in the cloud, scaling a business in the cloud, a lot of companies are just looking to sort of have somebody else take care of that problem for them or have somebody they can call when they run into, you know, into problems scaling. And so with a combination of tech, advanced technology, some of the best cloud experts in the world and unlimited tech support or we're offloading a lot of those problems for our customers and we're doing that on a global basis. So it's, it's an exciting time. >>I can imagine pretty much everyone here on the show floor is dealing with that challenge of complexity. So a couple customers for you in the house. What about you Danny? >>I, I come from a company which operates in a financial industry market. So we essentially a global broker, financial trading broker. Which what this means for those people who don't really understand, essentially we allow clients to be able to trade digitally and speculate with different pricing, pricing tools online. We offer a different products for different type of clients. We have institutional clients, we've got our affiliates, partners programs and we've got a retail clients and this is where AWS and Doit comes handy allows us to offer our products digitally across the globe. And one of the key values for us here is that we can actually offer a product in regions where other people don't. So for example, we don't compete in North America, we don't compete in EME in Europe, but we just do it in AWS to solve our complex challenges in regions that naturally by, depending on where they base, they have like issues and that's how we deliver our product. >>And which regions, Latin >>America, Latin, the entire Africa, subcontinent, middle East, southeast Asia, the culture is just demographic is different. And what you used to have here is not exactly what you have over there. And obviously that brings a lot of challenges with onboarding and clients, deposit, trading activities, CDN latency, all of >>That stuff. It's interesting how each region's different in their, their posture with the cloud. Someone roll their own, someone outta the box. So again, this brings up this theme this year guys, which is about end to end seeing purpose built like specialty solutions. A lot of solutions going end to end with data makes kind of makes it more complicated. So again, we got more complexity coming, but the greatest the cloud is, you can abstract that away. So we are seeing this is a big opportunity for partners to innovate. You're seeing a lot of joint engineering, a lot more complexities coming still, but still end to end is the end game so to speak. >>A absolutely John, I mean one, one of the sort of ways we describe what we try to do for our customers like Equinox is to be your co-pilot in the cloud, which essentially means, you know, >>What an apt analogy. >>I think so, yeah, >>Well, well >>Done there. I think it works. Yvanna. Yeah, so, so as I mentioned, these are the majority or almost all of our customers are pretty sophisticated tech savvy companies. So they don't, you know, they know for most, for the most part what they're trying to achieve. They're approaching scale, they're at scale or they're, or they're through that scale point and they, they just wanna have somebody they can call, right? They need technology to help abstract away the complex problem. So they're not doing so much manual cloud operational work or sometimes they just need help picking the next tech right to solve the end to end use case that that they're, that they're dealing with >>In business. And Danny, you're rolling out solutions so you're on, you're on the front lines, you gotta make it easier. You didn't want to get in the weeds on something that should be taken care of. >>Correct. I mean one of the reasons we go do it is you need to, in order to involve do it, you need to know your problems, understand your challenges, also like a self review only. And you have to be one way halfway through the cloud journey. You need to know your problems, what you want to achieve, where you want to end up a roadmap for the next five years, what you want to achieve. Are we fixing or developing a building? And then involve those guys to come and help you because they cannot just come with magic one and fix all your problems. You need to do that yourself. It's not like starting the journey by yourself. >>Yeah. One thing that's not played up in this event, I will say they may, I don't, they missed, maybe Verner will hit it tomorrow, but I think they kind of missed it a little bit. But the developer productivity's been a big issue. We've seen that this year. One of the big themes on the cube is developer productivity, more velocity on the development side to keep pace with what's on, what solutions are rolling out the customers. And the other one is skills gap. So, and people like, and people have old skills, like we see VMware being bought by Broadcom for instance, got a lot of IT operators at VMware, they gotta go cloud somewhere. So you got new talent, existing talent, skill gaps, people are comfortable, yet the new stuff's there, developers gotta be more productive. How do you guys see that? Cuz that's gonna be how that plays now, it's gonna impact the channel, the partnership relationship, your ability to deliver. >>What's your reaction to that first? Well I think we obviously have a tech savvy team. We've got developers, we've got dev, we've got infrastructure guys, but we only got so much resource that we can afford. And essentially by evolving due it, I've doubled our staff. So we got a tech savvy senior solution architects which comes to do the sexy stuff, actually develop and design a new better offering, better product that makes us competitive. And this is where we involved, essentially we use the due IT staff as an staff employees that our demand is richly army of qualified people. We can actually cherry pick who we want for the call to do X, Y, and Z. And they're there to, to support you. We just have to ask for help. And this is how we fill our gap from technical skills or budget constrained within, you know, within recruitment. >>And I think, I think what, what Danny is touching on, John, what you mentioned is, is really the, the sort of the core family principle of the company, right? It's hard enough for companies like Equinox to hire staff that can help them build their business and deliver the value proposition that they're, that they see, right? And so our reason for existence is to sort of take care of the rest, right? We can help, you know, operate your cloud, show you the most effective way to do that. Whether they're finops problems, whether they're DevOps problems, whether dev SEC ops problems, all of these sort of classic operational problems that get 'em the way of the core business mission. You're not in the business of running the cloud, you're in the business of delivering customer value. We can help you, you know, manage your cloud >>And it's your job to do it. >>It is to do it >>Can, couldn't raise this upon there. How long have y'all been working together? >>I would say 15 months. We took, we took a bit of a conservative approach. We hope for the baseball, prepare for the worst. So I didn't trust do it. I give them one account, start with DEF U A C because you cannot, you just have to learn the journey yourself. So I think I would, my advice for clients is give it the six months. Once you establish a relationship, build a relationship, give them one by one start slowly. You actually understand by yourself the skills, the capacity that they have. And also the, for me consultants is really important And after that just opens up and we are now involving them. We've got new project, we've got problem statement. The first thing we do, we don't Google it, we just say do it. Log a ticket, we got the team. You're >>A verb. >>Yeah. So >>In this case we have >>The puns are on list here on the Cuban general. But with something like that, it's great. >>I gotta ask you a question cuz this is interesting John. You know, we talked last year on the cube and, and again this is an example of how innovations playing out. If you look at the announcements, Adam Celski did and then sw, he had 13 or so announcements. I won't say it's getting boring, but when you hear boring, boring is good. When you start getting into these, these gaps in the platforms as it grows. I won't say they was boring cause that really wasn't boring. I like the data >>Itself. It's all fascinating, John, >>But it, but it's a lot of gap filling, you know, 50 connectors you got, you know, yeah. All glue layers being built in AI's critical. The match cloud is there. What's the innovation? You got a lot of gaps being filled, boring is good. Like Kubernetes, we say there boring means, it's being invisible. That means it's going away. What's the exciting things from your perspective in cloud here? >>Well, I think, I mean, boring is an interesting word to use cuz a company with the heritage of AWS is constantly evolving. I mean, at the core of that company's culture is innovation, technology, development and innovation. And they're building for builders as, as you know, just as well as I do. Yeah. And so, but what we find across our customer base is that companies that are scaling or at scale are using maybe a smaller set of those services, but they're really leveraging them in interesting ways. And there is a very long tail of deeper, more sophisticated fit for purpose, more specific services. And Adam announced, you know, who knows him another 20 or 30 services and it's happening year after year after year. And I think one of the things that, that Danny might attest to is, I, I spoke about the reason we exist and the reason we form the company is we hold it very, a very critical part of our mission is to stay abreast of all of those developments as they emerge so that Danny and and his crew don't have to, right? And so when they have a, a, a question about SageMaker or they have a question about sort of the new big data service that Adam has announced, we take it very seriously. Our job is to be able to answer that question quickly and >>Accurately. And I notice your shirt, if you could just give a little shirt there, ops, cloud ops, DevOps do it. The intersection of the finance, the tuning is now we're hearing a lot of price performance, cost recovery, not cost recovery, but cost management. Yeah. Optimizing. So we're seeing building scale, but now, now tuning almost a craft, the craft of the cloud is here. What's your reaction to that? It, >>It absolutely is. And this is a story as old as the cloud, honestly. And companies, you know, they'll, they'll, companies tend to follow the same sort of maturity journey when they first start, whether they're migrating to the cloud or they were born in the cloud as most of our customers are. There's a, there's a, there's an, there's an access to visibility and understanding and optimization to tuning a craft to use your term. And, and cost management truly is a 10 year old problem that is as prevalent and relevant today as it was, you know, 10 years ago. And there's a lot of talk about the economics associated with the cloud and it's not, certainly not always cheaper to run. In fact, it rarely is cheaper to run your business from any of the public cloud providers. The key is to do it and right size it and make sure it's operating in accordance and alignment with your business, right? It's okay for cloud process to go up so long as your top line is also >>Selling your proportion. You spend more cloud to save cloud. That's it's >>Penny wise, pound full. It's always a little bit, always a little bit of a, of a >>Dilemma on, on the cost saving. We didn't want to just save money. If you want to save money, just shut down your services, right? So it's about making money. So this is where do it comes, like we actually start making, okay, we spend a bit more now, but in about six months time I will be making more money. And we've just did that. We roll out the new application for all the new product offering host to AWS fully with the guys support, a lot of long, boring, boring, boring calls, but they're productive because we actually now have a better product, competitive, it's tailored for our clients, it's cost effective. And we are actually making money >>When something's invisible. It's working, you know, talking about it means it's, it's, it's operational. >>It's exactly, it's, >>Well to that point, John, one of the things we're most proud of in, you know, know this year was, was the launch of our product we called Flex Save, which essentially does exactly what you've described. It's, it's looking for automation and, and, and, and automatic ways of, yes. Saving money, but offering the opportunities to, to to improve the economics associated with your cloud infrastructure. >>Yeah. And improving the efficiency across the board. A hundred percent. It, it's, oh, it's awesome. Let's, and, and it's, it's my understanding there's some reporting and insights that you're able to then translate through from do it to your CTO and across the company. Denny, what's that like? What do you get to see working >>With them? Well, the problem is, like the CTO asked me to do all of that. It is funny he thinks that he's doing it, but essentially they have a excellent portal that basically looks up all of our instances on the one place. You got like good analytics on your cost, cost, anomalies, budget, costal location. But I didn't want to do that either. So what I have done is taken the next step. I actually sold this to the, to my company completely. So my finance teams goes there, they do it themselves, they log in, check, check, all the billing, the costal location. I actually has zero iteration with them if I don't hear anything from them, which is one of the benefits. But also there is lot of other products like the Flexe is virtually like you just click a finger and you start saving money just like that. Easy >>Is that easy button we've been talking about on >>The show? Yeah, exactly, exactly how it is. But there is obviously outside of the cost management, you actually can look at what is the resource you using do actually need it, how often you use it, think about the long term goal, what you're trying to achieve, and use the analytics to, and actually I have to say the analytics much better than AWS in, in, in, in cmp. It's, it's just more user friendly, more interactive as opposed to, you know, building the one in aws. >>It's good business model. Make things easy for your customers. Easy, simple >>To use. >>It's gotta be nice to hear John. >>Well, so first of all, thank you daddy. >>We, we work, but in all seriousness, you know, we, we work, Danny mentioned the trust word earlier. This is at the core of if we don't, if we're not able to build trust with our clients, our business is dead. It, it just doesn't exist. It can't scale. In fact, it'll go the opposite direction. And so we're, we work very, very hard to earn that trust and we're willing to start small to Danny's example, start small and grow. And that's why we're very, one of the things we're most proud of is, is how few customers tend to leave us year over year. We have customers that have been with us for 10 years. >>You know, Andy, Jesse always has, I just saw an interview, he was on the New York Times event in New York today as a CEO of Amazon. But he's always said in these build out phases, you gotta work backwards from the customer and innovate on behalf of the customer. Cause that's the answer that will always be a good answer for the outcome versus optimizing for just profit, you know what I'm saying? Or other things. So we're still in build out mode, >>You know, as a, as a, as a core fundamental sort of product concept. If you're not solving important problems for our customer, what are you, why, why are you investing? It just >>Doesn't make it. This is the beauty we do it. We actually, they wait for you to come to do the next step. They don't sell me anything. They don't bug me with emails. They're ready. When you're ready to make that journey, you just log a ticket and then come and help you. And this is the beauty. You just, it's just not your, your journey. >>I love it. That's a, that's a beautiful note to lead us to our new tradition on the cube. We have a little bit of a challenge for the both of you. We're looking for your 32nd Instagram real thought leadership sizzle anecdote. Either one of you wanna go first. John looks a little nauseous. Danny, you wanna give it a go? >>Well, we've got a few expressions, but we don't Google it. We just do it. And the key take, that's what we do now at, at, and also what we do is actually using their stuff as an influence employees richly. Like that's what we do. >>Well done, well done. Didn't even need the 30 seconds. Fantastic work, Danny. I love that. All right, John, now you do have to go. Okay, >>I'll goodness. You know, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll I'll go back to what I mentioned earlier, if that's okay. I think we, you know, we exist as a company to sort of help our customers get back to focusing on why they started the business in the first place, which is innovating and delivering value to customers. And we'll help you take care of the rest. It's as simple as that. Awesome. >>Well done. You absolutely nailed it. I wanna just acknowledge your fan club over there watching. Hello everyone from the doit team. Good job team. I love, it's very cute when guests show up with an entourage to the cube. We like to see it. You obviously deserve the entourage. You're, you're both wonderful. Thanks again for being here on the show with Oh yeah, go ahead >>John. Well, I would just like to thank Danny for, for agreeing to >>Discern, thankfully >>Great to spend time with you. Absolutely. Let's do it. >>Thank you. Yeah, >>Yeah. Fantastic gentlemen. Well thank you all for tuning into this wonderful start to the afternoon here from AWS Reinvent. We are in Las Vegas, Nevada with John Furier. My name's Savannah Peterson, you're watching The Cube, the leader in high tech coverage.

>>Welcome back everyone to the cubes coverage here in Seattle, Washington for the Avis marketplace seller conference, part of the APN partner network merging with the marketplace to form the Amazon partner organization. I'm John furrier, host of the cube Walter Wall coverage today, Christian Gor cash, who is the VP of alliances at Kong Inc. Welcome to the cube. Thanks for coming on. >>Thank you. Thank you, John. Really glad to be here. Corke exactly. Yeah. It's awesome. >>So Kong we've been following you guys for while Docker Kong cube. You've been part of our cube conversation. Also part of our, our startup showcase fast growing startup, you know, working on stuff that everyone loves APIs. I mean, APIs are so popular now that they now a security concern, right? Yeah. So like it gets squat there everywhere. I won't say API sprawl, but APIs are the connections and that are, is the web. That is the cloud. Okay. Now with cloud native developers who are now in the front lines have taken over it, everyone knows DevOps dev SecOps is now the new it and it's the developers security and data they're below they're the new ops, right? So, so this is where microservices come in, open source service MES new automation is coming down the pike. That's super valuable to businesses as they look at cloud native architecture, what are you guys doing in there? Take a minute to explain Kong's value proposition, the hot products, and then why you're here. >>Yeah. So, you know, I joined Kong now or three years ago, you know, we were still just reaching our hundred employees, mark, which is very important, very startup, but even back then, you know, Kong was relatively well known in industry, you know, so we have one of the most, well the most popular open source project in API gateway area. So con API gateway, you know, we cross now 300 million downloads, even more important is just the scale it, which the product's been used. So between our open source community and enterprise customers, we are now crossing like 11 trillion transactions per month. Now just give you comparison. Like this is like 18, 19 times more than Netflix per month. You know? So for any company that has a technology that operates it at scale, you need to hit few things outta the park. You know, as he mentions cloud data developers, they want simplicity. You know, they want automation. They also want performance and scale and security, which are all critical, you know, to how Kong, you know, start as opensource project. Now, of course we have the whole suite of enterprise products. We also have our con service mesh offering as well as our cloud offerings. >>Yeah. And this is how open source is doing it now, obviously, you know, I, I still remember, I still tell the story to the young startups. Hey, I, there was proprietary software when I was in college. Open source is now everything. Now you've got, got cloud scale. So the dynamic between open source, which has become the software industry open source success doesn't mean it's it's game over. It's the beginning. The commercialization that you guys have gone through is super important. Trillions of transactions. Now you have enterprises working with you. What's the big advantage of the seller relationship that you have with Amazon? Why are customers using it? What are they buying it for? Give the pitch of con for the marketplace customer. >>Yeah, it's actually, we are relatively new in AWS marketplace. You know, so our first transaction that we ever done was actually in July and 2021. So we are just over a year, you know, that journey, you know, when I look what Chris gross talked today, he was talking about, you know, Hey, just publishing marketplace, not enough. You know, you need to understand what's your value proposition. You need to make sure your operations already, your sales is ready. Everything is, is set. And we kind of did this for the first year and a half is spend a lot of time improving our integration with AWS overall, all the first party services relevant to con we also understood, well, what does it take to kind of fine tune our value proposition? We have like three specific sales place. And you know, when we launch our flagship product con connect enterprise and got our first transaction, that was great milestone for, for star like Kong. But then what we've seen is just that work that we've done before really paid off. I mean right now, >>Like what we'll give example. >>Yeah. So, you know, we are focusing on as measure three sales place. Money is we are focused, specific on helping customers who are modernizing and, and their application going to the cloud. And you have a lot of these, you know, lifting shift and are rearchitect and modernized, but most of the attentions on the workloads, what about the connections? You know, so a monolith application had to authentic all the users understand wheres the network and so on. When you build those, when you now decouple this built like 1,000 thousand microservices, you don't want to repeat this for every microservice. So that's where K brings the whole suite from, you know, service match to the API gate to help manage the journey and really support this environment. And we spend a lot of time to just fine tune that message. So that customers understood where, you know, how can we help them on their journey beyond what, for instance, cloud native or AWS API gateway offers them. So we can really help them from day one on the journey and accelerate. And >>I think I it's a no, it's a no braining for a customer to buyer or to come into the marketplace and say, click, I'm gonna buy some data analytics services. I'm gonna buy gateway through Kong. But when they start getting into these microservices, this automation opportunity there, there's more behind the curtain for them with Kong. So I have to ask you with the keynote we heard from Chris, the leader of the marketplace. Now he said that he wants the ISVs to be more native in the cloud. That probably resonates with you. You, >>You guys well with con's relatively simple because we were built at cloud native, you know, so very briefly the whole story of Congo. This is before Ajo, our founders were actually running the, the very popular API exchange col mesh shape. And they had to build their own gateway just to handle the scale and was built on cloud native technologies. And then when everybody's calling you, what are you using to running? This are using PGS. And so else, no, we built ourselves, oh, how can we get our hands on? That's how con actually >>Came to. And that's how the big winners usually happen too. They start build their own, solve their own problem because it's a big scale problem. Exactly. No one's had that problem. >>Yeah. And what we have seen, especially what was very, you know, through, through the pandemic, what we have seen. And it's interesting, you know, being in a startup doing pandemic is like, whoa, will the life just shut down or what we're doing? You know? But actually what we have seen customers prioritize the new business capability. For instance, you have a large parental companies that overnight, they have to understand where the assets are. Yeah. Or banks who are like 45 days of, you know, approving process for the loans. They need to reduce it for a day or two. >>Yeah. And they're adding more developers, too, exactly. To build the modern application. So they need to have that infrastructure as code aspect. Correct. >>And they >>Need in place. >>Yeah. I need to like you have, you know, I don't think that many customers still have waterfall cycles, but they have, have pre pretty long developers development cycles. And now you need to, you know, do this multiple times a day. That's >>Interesting. We talked to a lot of cloud architects and C CIO C says, and you know, the executive just hire more developers take that hill, build. It just don't build a new app. It's not that easy boss. When, when the cloud architect says we have to be fully operationally ready with cloud native infrastructure's code. So with that, you're seeing a lot more enterprises come in now that are more savvy. They getting better. We're seeing Kubernetes more and more. You're seeing containerization. You're seeing that cloud native enterprise acceptance. What does that mean for you guys in the marketplace, as you look at the value proposition, how are you guys working with the marketplace today and where do you see customers buying in the future? >>Yeah, so we as mentioned, you know, we, we are now a year into that journey. We already seen tremendous benefits just in terms of reducing the friction. You know, the whole procurement, you know, you come as a startup with some, some of the largest companies in the world, they used to buy five, 10 billion in software and they have all these processes and you're like, well, but we only have like two people in finance. Sorry. How can you, and where marketplace can really, really helps us is, you know, improve this experience, both sides because they understand like we are fast moving company. They, they want us because of our speed and, and innovation that we, the product's strong. Yeah. They don't want us to get bogged down in all these pro procurement processes either. And so, so that's the first benefit. We also are working very hard to make sure that the customers can provision Kong in AWS and automate across the board. So essentially reducing their time to value dramatically. Yeah. And another thing that we found tremendously beneficial for us is a startup is the whole concept of a standard marketplace contract. Yeah. So instead of us coming with our little MSA or come like 50 page MSA from companies, we now have a middle ground. So we can just agree. You know, there's some differences, some specifics to qu software and it's tremendously reduced costs on both sides. >>Great. For you guys great for the buyers. Yeah. You get deployed services. They're not just buying, they're managing and deploying. Yeah, >>Exactly. Great. >>Quick, final question. Put a plugin for the company. What are you working on now? What's the big news. What's the con update? >>Well, that's an interesting part because I can't tell you because next week we have our con summit. Oh right. In San Francisco. The cubes not so 28, 20 ninth. Yeah. We, we we'll, I think we are gonna fix that in the future. But anyway, this is the first time after pandemic to do this in person, we have number of very exciting announcement, our Kong products, as well as you may hear some news about our AWS partnership, >>We like con we believe that DevOps has happened. Dev sec ops, whatever you gonna call it, dev is now the developers they're in the front lines. They're in the C I CD pipeline. They're shifting left. That's the new they took over it. That's what DevOps does. It's not a title. Now you have security and data ops behind the scenes. That's gonna be middleware. That's gonna have tons of microservices. So more, more, more action coming, all API based. >>Exactly. And the more, you know, the more complexity we can take away from that, the better we, you know, the >>Whole community. Thank you. Spending the time to come on the cube here at the, a us marketplace seller conference. What do you think about the APN merging with the marketplace formed the P the Amazon partner organization. Thumbs up, thumbs down. What's your heard? >>It's excellent. We have a great friend in AP, a great friend, us marketplace. Now both of them work together with huge. >>Fantastic. Yes. Thanks for okay. Cube coverage here in Seattle. I'm John furier APN marketplace together. APOs the new organization making it easier. Of course, we got all the coverage here. Thanks for watching.

>>Okay, welcome back everyone to the Cube's live coverage of VMware Explorer, 2022. I'm John Forer host of the cube with Dave Lisa Martin, Dave Nicholson, two sets for three days. We're on three days, we're here breaking down all the action of what's going on around VMware is our 12th year covering VMware's user conference. Formerly known as world. Now explore as it explores new territory, its future multi-cloud vSphere eight and a variety of new next generation cloud. We're here on day three, breaking out. This is day three more, more intimate, much more deeper conversations. And we have coming back on the Q Keith Norby with NetApp, the worldwide product partner solutions executive at NetApp Keith. Great to see you industry to veteran cube alumni. Thanks for coming back. It's >>Good to see you >>Again. Yeah. I wanted to bring you back for a couple reasons. One is I want to talk about the NetApp story and also where that's going with DM VMware as that's evolving and, and is changing and, and with Broadcom and, and the new next generation, but also analyzing kind of the customer impact piece of it. You're like an analyst who've been in the industry for a long time. Been commentating on the cube. VMware's in an interesting spot right now because I, I mean, I love the story. I mean, we can debate the messaging. Some people are very critical of it a little bit too multicloud, not enough cloud native, but I see the waves, right? I get it. Virtualization kicked ass tech names. Now it moves to hybrid cloud. And now this next gen is a, you know, clear cloud native multi-cloud environment. I, I get that. I can see, I can, I can get there, but is it ready? And the timing. Right. And do they have all the peace parts? What's the role of the ecosystem? These are all open questions. >>Yeah. And, and the reality is no one has a single answer. And that's part of the fun of this, is that not just a NetApp, but the rest of the ecosystem and videos here, as an example, who, who is thinking, you know, the Kings of AI are gonna be sitting at a V VMware show and yet it's absolutely relevant. So you have a very complex set of things that emerge, but yet also it's, it's, that's not overcomplicated. There is a set of primary principles that, you know, organizations I think are all looking to get to. And I think the reality is that this is maturing in different spurts. So whether it's ecosystem or it's, you know, operations modes and several other factors that kind of come into it, you know, that's part of the landscape, >>You know, I gotta ask you, you know, you and I are both kind of historians. We always talk about what's happened and happening and gonna happen. You know, it's interesting 12 years covering world and now explore NetApp has always been such a great company. We've been, I've been following that company, you know, since, you know, 1997, you know, days. And, and certainly with the past decade of the cloud or so the moves you guys may have been really good, but NetApp's never really had the kind of positioning in the VMware story going back in the past 12 years. And this keynote, you guys were mentioned in the keynote. Yeah. Has there ever been a time where NetApp was actually mentioned in a keynote at world or now explore? >>Well, you know, when we started this relationship back when I was a partner, I really monetized and took advantage of some of the advantages that NetApp had with VMware back in the early days, we're talking to ESX three days and they were dominant to the point where the rest of, you know, the ecosystem was trying to catch up. And of course, you know, a lot of competition from there, but yeah, it, it, it was great seeing a day, one VMware keynote with NetApp mentioned in the same relevance as AWS and VMware, which is exactly where we've been. You know, one thing that NetApp has done really well is not just being AWS, but be in all the hyperscalers as first party services and having a, a portfolio of other ways that we deal with things like, you know, data governance and cloud data management and cloud cloud backup, and overall dealing with cyber resiliency and, and ransomware protection and list goes on and on. So we've done our job to really make ourself both relevant and easy for people to consume. And it was great to see VMware and AWS come together. And the funny part was that, you know, we had on, on the previous cube session, you have VMware and AWS in between NetApp, all talking about, we have this whole thing running at all three of our booths. And that's fantastic. You >>Know, I, I can say because I actually was there and documented it and actually wrote about it in the early 20 11, 20 12, the then CEO Georgian's and I had an interview. He actually was the first storage company to actually engage with AWS back then. Yeah. I mean, that's a long time ago. That's that's 10 years ago. And then everyone else kind of followed EMC kind of was deer in the headlights at that point. They were poo pooing, AWS. Oh yeah, no, it'll never work either of which will never work. It's just a, a fluke. Yeah. For developers. NetApp was on the Amazon web services partnership train for a long time. >>Yeah. It, it, it's really amazing how early we got on this thing, which you can see the reason why that matters now is because it's not only in first party service, but that's also very robust and scalable. And this is one of the reasons why we think this opens it up. And, you know, as much as you wanna talk about the technology capabilities in, in this offering, the funny part is, is the intro conversation is how much money you save. So it unlocks all the, the use cases that you weren't able to do before. And when you, when you look at use case after use case on these workloads, they were hell held back. The number one conversation we had at this show was partner after partner, organization, after organization that came into our booth and talked to us about, yeah, I've got a bunch of these scenarios that I've been holding back on because I heard whispers about this. Now we're gonna go in >>Unleash those. All right. So what are, what's the top stories for you guys now at NetApp? What's the update it's been a while, since we had a cube update with you guys, what are you guys showing of the show? What's your agenda? What are your talking points? What's the main story? >>Well, for us, it's, it's, it's, it's always, you know, a cloud and on-prem combination of priorities within our partner ecosystem. The way we kind of communicate that out is really through three lenses. You know, one is on the hybrid cloud opportunity, people taking data center and modernizing the data center with the apps and getting the cloud, just like we're delivering here at this VMware world show. Also the AI and modern data analytics opportunity, and then public cloud, because really in a lot of these situations at apps, you know, the, the buyer, the consumer, the people that are interested in transforming are looking at it from different lenses. And these all start with really the customer journeys, the data ops buyer is different than the data center ops buyer. And, and that's exactly who we target this in is, is NetApp. I think, focuses relentlessly on how we reach them. And by the way, not just on storage products, if you look at like our instant cluster acquisition and all these other things, we're trying to be as relevant, we, as we can in data management and you know, whether that's pipelining data management or storing data management, that's >>Where we're there. You know, I, I was talking with David Nicholson, cuz we have, you know, we joked together. I say the holy Trinity, he goes with the devil's triangle. I'm Catholic, gotta know what his, his denomination is, but storage, networking, and compute. Obviously the, the three majors, it never changes. And I think it was interesting now, and I wanna get your reaction to this and what NetApp's doing around it is that if look at the DevOps movement, it's clearly cloud native, but the it ops is not it anymore. It's basically security and data I'm I'm oversimplifying, but DevOps, the developers now do a lot of that. I call it work in, in the CSD pipeline, but the real challenge is data and ops. That's a storage conversation. Compute is beautiful. You got containers, Kubernetes, all kinds of stuff going on with compute, move, compute around, move the data to compute. But storage is where the action is for cyber and data ops. Yeah. And AI. So like storage is back. They never left, but it's, it's transformed to even be more important because the role of hyper-convergence shows that compute and storage go well together. What's your take on this and how is NetApp modernized to, to solve the data ops and take that to the next level and of obviously enable and, and enable in great security and or defense ability. >>Yeah. And that's why no one architecture is gonna solve every problem. That's why, when we look at the data ops buyer, there's adjacencies to the apps buyer, to the other cloud ops buyer. And there's also the fin ops buyer because all of 'em have to work together. What we're, what we're focusing on. Isn't just storing data. But it's also things around how you discover govern data. You know, how you protect data, even things like in the ed workspace, the chip manufacturers, how we use cloud bursting to be able to accelerate performance on chip design. So whether you're translating this for the industry vernacular about how we help say in the financial sector for AI and what we do within Invidia, or it's something translated to this VMware opportunity on AWS, you know, what we've put together is, is something that has as much meaningful relevance for storing data, but also for all the other adjacencies that kind of extend off there. >>Talk about what you're doing with your partner. I saw last night I did, I did a fly by a NetApp event. It was Nvidia insight, which is a partner, an integrator partner. So you got a lot of the frontline on the front lines, you got partners and you got, you know, big solutions with NetApp and now vendors like Nvidia, what are you actually selling? What's what's getting, I guess what's being put together, not selling, I'm obviously selling gear and what, but like solutions, but what's being packaged to the customer. Where does, what does and video fit in? What are you guys? And what's the winning formula. Take us through the highlights. >>Yeah. And so the VMware highlights here are obviously that we're trying to get infrastructure foundations to just not have, be, be trapped in one cloud or anyone OnPrem. So having a little more E elasticity, but if you extend that out, like you, like you mentioned with a partner that's trying to, to go drive AI within Nvidia, you know, NetApp doesn't create any AI deals cuz no one starts an AI journey with storage. They always start it with the, a with the data model. So the data scientists will actually start these things in cloud and they'll bring 'em on prem. Once the data sets get to a, a big enough scenario and then they wanna build it into a multi-cloud over time. And that's where Nvidia has really led the charge. So someone like an insight or other partners could be Kindra or, or Accenture, or even small boutique partners that are in the data analytics space. They'll go drive that. And we provide not just data storage, but are really complimentary infrastructure. In fact, I always say it like on the AI story alone, we have an integration for the data scientists. So when they go pull the data sets in, you can either do that as a manual copy that takes hours sometimes days, or you can do it instantaneously with our integration to their Jupyter notebook. So I say for AI, as an example, NetApp creates time for data scientists. Got >>It. And where's the, the cloud transformation with you guys right now? How is the hybrid working? Obviously you got the public and hybrids, a steady state right now multi-cloud is still a little fantasy in terms of actual multi-cloud that's coming next, but hybrid and cloud, what's the key key configuration for NetApp what's the hot products? >>Well, I think the key is that you can't just be trapped in one location. So we started this whole thing back with data fabric, as you know, and it's built from there up into, into more of the ops layer and some of the technology layers that have to compliment to come with it. In fact, one of the things that we do that isn't always seen as adjacency to us is our spot product on cloud, which allows you to play in the finops space to be able to look at the analyzed spend and sort of optimized environments for a DevOps environment cloud, to be able to give back a big percentage of what you probably misallocate in those operating models. Once you're working with NetApp and allow it to re re redeploy it in the place that you wanna spend it, you know, so it's, it's both the upper and lower stories coming together. >>Yeah. I was on the walking around the hallway yesterday and I was kind of going through the main event last night, overheard people talking about ransomware. I mean, still ransomware is such a big problem. Security's huge. How are you guys doing there? What's the story with security? Obviously ransomware is a big storage aspect and, and backup recovery and whatnot. All that's kind of tied together. How does NetApp enable better security? What's the story >>There? Yeah, it's funny because that's, that's where a lot of the headlines are at this show at every other show is security for us. It's really about cyber resilience. It is one of the key foundational parts of our hybrid cloud offerings. So as we go out to the partners, you mentioned, you know, insight and there's others, you know, CDW ahead here, and the GSI hosting providers, they're all trying to figure out the security opportunity because that is live. So we have a cyber resiliency solution that isn't just our snapshot technologies, but it's also some of the discovery data governance. But also, you know, you gotta work this with ecosystem, as we said, you know, you have all the other ISVs out there that have several solutions, not just the traditional data protection ones, but also the security players. Because if you look at the full perimeter and you look at how you have to secure that and be able to both block remediate and bring back a site, you know, those are complex sets of things that no one person owns. But what we've tried to do is really be as, as meaningful and pervasive and integrated to that package as possible. That's why it's a lead story in the hybrid clouds. >>Can you share for a minute, just give the NetApp commercial plug cuz you guys have continued to stay relevant. What's the story this year for the folks watching that our customers or potential customers, what's the NetApp story for this year? >>Well, the net, the nets right for this year is kind of what I mentioned, which is, you know, we're in this multi-cloud world. So whether you're coming at this from any perspective, we have relevancy for, for the, the on-prem place that you've always enjoyed us, but at the opposite of the spectrum, if you're coming at us from an AWS show or the cloud op the cloud ops buyer, we have a complete portfolio that if you never knew net from the on-prem, you're gonna see us massively relevant in that, in that environment. And you just go to an AWS show or a Microsoft Azure, so, or a Google show, you'll see us there. You'll see exactly why we were relevant there. You'll see them mention why we're relevant there. So our message is really that we have a full portfolio across the hybrid multi-cloud from anyone buyer perspective, to be able to solve those problems, but by the way, do it with partners cuz the partners are the ones that complete all this. None of us on our own, AWS, Microsoft, VMware, NetApp, none of us have the singular solution ourselves. And we can't deliver ourselves. You have to have those partners that have those skills, those competencies. And that's why we, we leverage it that way. >>Great, great stuff. Now I gotta ask you what what's going on in your world with partners. How's it going? What's the vibe what's that just share some insight into what's happening inside the partners? Are they happy with the margins? Are they shifting behavior? What are some of the, the high order bit news items or, or trends going on at the, on the front lines with your partners? >>Well, I think listen, the, the, the challenges pitfalls, the, the objections, the, all the problems that have been there in the past are even more multiplied with today's economy and all the situations we've gone through with COVID. But the reality is what's emerged is an interesting kind of tapestry of a lot of different partner types. So for us, we recognize that across the traditional GSIs, you see these cloud native partners emerging, which is an exciting realm, you know, to look at folks that really built their business in the cloud with no on-prem and being relevant with them, just consulting partners alone. Like the SAP ecosystem has a very condensed set of partners that really drive a lot of the transformation of SAP. And a lot of them don't, you know, don't do product business. So how does someone like NetApp be relevant with them? You gotta put together an offering that says we do X, Y, and Z for SAP. And so it's, it's a combination of these partners across the, the different >>Ecosystems. Yeah. And I, and I, I'm gonna, I wanna get your reaction to something and you probably don't, you don't have to go out, out in the limb and, and put NetApp in a, in a position on official position. But I've been saying on the cube that no matter what happens with VMware's situation with Broadcom, this is not a dying market, right? I mean like you you'd think when someone gets bought out or, or intention bought out, that'd be like this, this dark cloud that would hang over the, the company and this condition is their user conference. So this is a good barometer to get a feel for it. And I gotta tell you, Sunday night here at VMware Explorer, the expo floor was not dead. It was buzzing. It was packed the ecosystem and even the conversations and the positionings, it's all, all growth. So, so I think VMware's in a really interesting spot here with the Broadcom, because no matter what happens that ecosystem's going to settle somewhere. Yeah. It's not going away cuz they have such great customer base. So, you know, assume that broad Tom is gonna do the right thing and they keep most of the jewels they'll keep all the customers. So, but still that wave is coming. Yeah. It's independent of VMware. Yeah. That's the whole point. So what happens next? >>Well, I think, you know, we, >>We, you guys are gonna get mop up in business. Amazon's gonna get some business, Microsoft, HPE, you name it all gonna, >>Yeah. I think, you know, we've, we've been in business with Broadcom for a long time, whether it be the switch business, the chip business, everything in between. And so we've got a very mature relationship with them and we have a great relationship with VMware. It's it's best. It's almost ever been now and together. I think that will all just rationalize and, and settle over time as this kind of goes through both the next Barcelona show and when it comes back here next year, and I think, you know, what you'll see is probably, you know, some of the stuff settle into the new things they announced here at the show and the things that maybe you haven't heard from, but ultimately the, these, these, these solutions that they have to come forward with, you know, have to land on things that go forward. And so today you just saw that with VMware trying to do VMware cloud and AWS, they realized that there was a gap in terms of people adopting and wanting to do a storage expansion without adding compute. So they made a move with us that made total sense. I think you're gonna see more of those things that are very common sense, ways to solve the, the barriers to, you know, modernization, adoption and maturity. That's just gonna be a natural part of the vetting. And I think they'll probably come a lot more. >>It's gonna be very interesting. We interviewed AJ Patel yesterday. He heads up he's SVP G of the modern app side. He's a middleware guy. So you can almost connect the dots kind of where we're going with this. Yeah. So I assume there's a nice middleware layer of developing everybody wins yeah. In this, if done properly. So it's clearly that VMware, no matter what happens at Broadcom from this show, my assessment's all steam all steam ahead. No, one's holding back at this point. >>Yeah. It's funny. The, the most mature partners we talk to have this interesting sort of upper and lower story and the upper story is all about that, that application data and middleware kind of layer. What are you doing there to be relevant about the different issues they run into versus some of the stuff that we've grown up with on the infrastructure side, they wanna make that as, as nascent as possible, like infrastructure's code and all this stuff that the automation platforms do. But you're right. If you don't get up into that application, middleware space, you know, and work on that, on that side of the house, you know, you're not gonna be >>Relevant. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting, you know, most people, people take it literally. It doesn't mean middleware. We don't mean middleware. We mean that what middleware was yeah. In the old metaphor just still has to happen. That's where complexity solved. You got hardware, essentially cloud and you got applications, right. So it's all, all kind of the same, but not >>Yeah. In a lot of cases, it could be conceived as even like pipelining, you know, it's it's, you have data and apps going through a transformation from the old style and the old application structures to cloud native apps and a, a much different architecture. The, the whole deal is how you're relevant there. How you solving real problems about simplifying, improving performance, improving securities, you mentioned all those things are relevant and that's where, that's where you have to place >>Your bets. I love that storage is continuing to be at the center of the value proposition. Again, storage compute, networking never goes away. It's just being kind of flexed in new ways just to continue to say, deliver better value. Keith, thanks for coming on the queue. Great to see you for the, see you again, man, day three for coming back on and give us some commentary. Really appreciate it. And congratulations on all the success with the partners and having the cloud story. Right. Thanks. Cheers. Okay. More cube coverage. After this short break day three, Walter Wall coverage. I'm John furier host Dave ante, Lisa Martin, Dave Nicholson, all here covering VMware. We'll be back with more after this short break.

>>Welcome back everyone to the cubes coverage here live in San Francisco for VMware Explorer. Formerly got it. World. We've been to every world since 2010. Now is VMware Explorer. I'm John furier host with Dave ante with Dave lium here. He's the chief cloud strategy officer at Deloitte. Welcome to the cube. Thanks for coming on. Appreciate your time. >>Thanks for having me. It's >>Epic keynote today on stage all seven minutes of your great seven minutes >>Performance discussion. Yes. Very, very, very, very quick to the order. I brought everybody up to speed and left. >>Well, Dave's great to have you on the cube one. We follow your work. We've been following for a long time. Thank you. A lot of web services, a lot of SOA, kind of in your background, kind of the old web services, AI, you know, samples, RSS, web services, all that good stuff. Now it's, it's now we're in kind of web services on steroids. Cloud came it's here. We're NextGen. You wrote a great story on Metacloud. You've been following the Supercloud with Dave. Does VMware have it right? >>Yeah, they do. Because I'll tell you what the market is turning toward. Anything that sit above and between the clouds. So things that don't exist in the hyperscaler, things that provide common services above the cloud providers are where the growth's gonna happen. We haven't really solved that problem yet. And so there's lots of operational aspects, security aspects, and the ability to have some sort of a brokering service that'll scale. So multi-cloud, which is their strategy here is not about cloud it's about things that exist in between cloud and making those things work. So getting to another layer of abstraction and automation to finally allow us to make use out of all these hyperscaler services that we're signing on today. Dave, >>Remember the old days back in the eighties, when we were young bucks coming into the business, the interoperability wave was coming. Remember that? Oh yeah, I got a deck mini computer. I got an IBM was gonna solve that unex. And then, you know, this other thing over here and lands and all and everything started getting into this whole, okay. Networking. Wasn't just coax. You started to see segment segments. Interoperability was a huge, what 10 year run. It feels like that's kind of like the vibe going on here. >>Yeah. We're not focused on having these things interop operate onto themselves. So what we're doing is putting a layer of things which allows them to interop operate. That's a different, that's a different problem to solve. And it's also solvable. We were talking about getting all these very distinct proprietary systems to communicate one to another and interate one to another. And that never really happened. Right? Cause you gotta get them to agree on interfaces and protocols. But if you put a layer above it, they can talk down to whatever native interfaces that are there and deal with the differences between the heterogeneity and abstract yourself in the complexity. And that's, that's kind of the different that works. The ability to kind of get everybody, you know, clunk their heads together and make them work together. That doesn't seem to scale couple >>And, and people gotta be motivated for that. Not many people might not >>Has me money. In other words has to be a business for them in doing so. >>A couple things I wanna follow up on from work, you know, this morning they used the term cloud chaos. When you talk to customers, you know, when they have multiple clouds, do they, are they saying to you, Hey, we have cloud chaos are, do they have cloud chaos? And they don't know it or do they not have cloud chaos? What's the mix. >>Yeah. I don't think the word chaos is used that much, but they do tell me they're hitting a complexity wall, which you do here out there as a term. So in other words, they're getting to a point where they can't scale operations to deal with a complexity and heterogeneity that they're, that they're bringing into the organization because using multiple clouds. So that is chaotic. So I guess that, you know, it is another way to name complexity. So there's so many services are moving from a thousand cloud services, under management to 3000 cloud services under management. They don't have the operational team, the skill, skill levels to do it. They don't have the tooling to do it. That's a wall. And you have to be able to figure out how to get beyond that wall to make those things work. So >>When, when we had our conversation about Metacloud and Supercloud, we we've, I think very much aligned in our thinking. And so now you've got this situation where you've got these abstraction layers, but, and there, but my question is, are we gonna have multiple abstraction layers? And will they talk to each other or are standards emerging? Will they be able to, >>No, we can't have multiple abstraction layers else. We just, we don't solve the problem. We go from complexity of exists at the native cloud levels to complexity of exists, that this thing we're dealing with to deal with complexity. So if you do that, we're screwing up. We have to go back and fix it. So ultimately this is about having common services, common security, layers, common operational layers, and things like that that are really reduced redundancy within the system. So instead of having a, you know, five different security layers and five different cloud providers, we're layering one and providing management and orchestration capabilities to make that happen. If we don't do that, we're not succeeding. >>What do you think about the marketplace? I know there's a lot of things going on that are happening around this. Wanna get your thoughts on obviously the industry dynamics, vendors preserving their future. And then you've got customers who have been leveraging the CapEx, goodness of say Amazon and then have to solve their whole distributed environment problem. So when you look at this, is it really solving? Is it is the order of operations first common layer abstraction because you know, it seems like the vendor, I won't say desperation move, but like their first move is we're gonna be the control plane or, you know, I think Cisco has a vision in their mind that no, no we're gonna have that management plane. I've heard a lot of people talking about, we're gonna be the management interface into something. How do you see that playing out? Because the order of operations to do the abstraction is to get consensus, right, right. First not competition. Right. So how do you see that? What's your reaction to that? And what's your observation. >>I think it's gonna be tough for the people who are supplying the underlying services to also be the orchestration and abstraction layers, because they're, they're kind of conflicted in making that happen. In other words, it's not in their best interest to make all these things work and interoperate one to another, but it's their best interest to provide, provide a service that everybody's going to leverage. So I see the layers here. I'm certainly the hyperscalers are gonna play in those layers and then they're welcome to play in those layers. They may come up with a solution that everybody picks, but ultimately it's about independence and your ability to have an objective way of, of allowing all these things to communicate together and driving this, driving this stuff together, to reduce the complexity again, to reduce. >>So a network box, for instance, maybe have hooks into it, but not try to dominate it >>Or that's right. Yeah, that's right. I think if you're trying to own everything and I get that a lot when I write about Supercloud and, and Metacloud they go, well, we're the Metacloud, we're the Supercloud you can't be other ones. That's a huge problem to solve. I know you don't have a solution for that. Okay. It's gonna be many different products to make that happen. And the reality is people who actually make that work are gonna have to be interdependent independent of the various underlying services. They're gonna, they can support them, but they really can't be them. They have to be an interate interop. They have to interoperate with those services. >>Do you, do you see like a w three C model, like the worldwide web consortium, remember that came out around 96, came to the us and MIT and then helped for some of those early standards in, in, in the internet, not DNS, but like the web, but DNS was already there and internet was already there, but like the web standards HTML kind of had, I think wasn't really hardcore get you in the headlock, but at least it was some sort of group that said, Hey, intellectually be honest, you see that happening in this area. >>I hope not. And here's >>Why not. >>Yeah. >>Here's, here's why the reality is is that when these consortiums come into play, it freezes the market. Everybody waits for the consortium to come up with some sort of a solution that's gonna save the world. And that solution never comes because you can't get these organizations through committee to figure out some sort of a technology stack that's gonna be working. So I'd rather see the market figure that out. Not a consortium when >>I, you mean the ecosystem, not some burning Bush. >>Yeah. Not some burning Bush. And it just hasn't worked. I mean, if it worked, it'd be great. And >>We had a, an event on August 9th, it was super cloud 22 and we had a security securing the super cloud panel. And one of my was a great conversation as you remember, John, but it was kind of depressing in that, like we're never gonna solve this problem. So what are you seeing in the security front? You know, it seems to like that's a main blocker to the Metacloud the Supercloud >>Yeah. The reality is you can't build all the security services in, in the Metacloud. You have to basically leverage the security services on the native cloud and leverage them as they exist. So this idea that we're gonna replace all of these security services with one layer of abstraction, that's gonna provide the services. So you don't need these underlying security systems that won't work. You have to leverage the native security systems, native governance, native operating interfaces, native APIs of all the various native clouds using the terms that they're looking to leverage. And that's the mistake. I think people are going to make, you don't need to replace something that's working. You just may need to make it easier to >>Use. Let's ask Dave about the, sort of the discussion that was on Twitter this morning. So when VMware announced their, you know, cross cloud services and, and the whole new Tansu one, three, and, and, and, and aria, there was a little chatter on Twitter basically saying, yeah, but VMware they'll never win the developers. And John came and said, well, hi, hang on. You know, if, if you've got open tools and you're embracing those, it's really about the ops and having standards on the op side. And so my question to you is, does VMware, that's >>Not exactly what I said, but close enough, >>Sorry. I mean, I'm paraphrasing. You can fine tune it, but, but does VMware have to win the developers or are they focused on kind of the right areas that whole, you know, op side of DevOps >>Focused on the op side, cuz that's the harder problem to solve. Developers are gonna use whatever tools they need to use to build these applications and roll them out. And they're gonna change all the time. In other words, they're gonna change the tools and technologies to do it in the supply chain. The ops problem is the harder problem to solve the ability to get these things working together and, and running at a certain point of reliability where the failure's not gonna be there. And I think that's gonna be the harder issue and doing that without complexity. >>Yeah. That's the multi-cloud challenge right there. I agree. The question I want to also pivot on that is, is that as we look at some of the reporting we've done and interviews, data and security really are hard areas. People are tune tuning up DevOps in the developer S booming, everyone's going fast, fast and loose. Shifting left, all that stuff's happening. Open source, booming Toga party. Everyone's partying ops is struggling to level up. So I guess the question is what's the order of operations from a customer. So a lot of customers have lifted and shift. The, some are going all in on say, AWS, yeah, I got a little hedge with Azure, but I'm not gonna do a full development team. As you talk to customers, cuz they're the ones deploying the clouds that want to get there, right? What's the order of operations to do it properly in your mind. And what's your advice as you look at as a strategy to, to do it, right? I mean, is there a playbook or some sort of situational, you know, sequence, >>Yes. One that works consistently is number one, you think about operations up front and if you can't solve operations, you have no business rolling out other applications and other databases that quite frankly can't be operated and that's how people are getting into trouble. So in other words, if you get into these very complex architectures, which is what a multicloud is, complex distributed system. Yeah. And you don't have an understanding of how you're gonna operationalize that system at scale, then you have no business in building the system. You have no business of going in a multicloud because you are going to run into that wall and it's gonna lead to a, an outage it's gonna lead to a breach or something that's gonna be company killing. >>So a lot of that's cultural, right. Having, having the cultural fortitude to say, we're gonna start there. We're gonna enforce these standards. >>That's what John CLE said. Yeah. CLE is famous line. >>Yeah, you're right. You're right. So, so, so what happens if the, if that as a consultant, if you, you probably have to insist on that first, right? Or, I mean, I don't know, you probably still do the engagement, but you, you're gonna be careful about promising an outcome aren't you, >>You're gonna have to insist on the fact they're gonna have to do some advanced planning and come up with a very rigorous way in which they're gonna roll it out. And the reality is if they're not doing that, then the advice would be you're gonna fail. So it's not a matter of when it's, when it's gonna happen. We're gonna, but at some point you're gonna fail either. Number one, you're gonna actually fail in some sort of a big disastrous event or more likely or not. You're gonna end up building something that's gonna cost you $10 million more a month to run and it's gonna be underoptimized. And is >>That effective when you, when you say that to a client or they say, okay, but, or do they say yes, you're >>Right. I view my role as a, someone like a doctor and a lawyer. You may not want to hear what I'm telling you. But the thing is, if I don't tell you the truth and I'm not doing my job as a trusted advisor. And so they'll never get anything but that from us, you know, as a firm and the reality is they can make their own decisions and will have to help them, whatever path they want to go. But we're making the warnings in place to make. >>And, and also also situationally it's IQ driven. Are they ready? What's their makeup. Are they have the kind of talent to execute. And there's a lot of unbeliev me. I totally think agree with on the op side, I think that's right on the money. The question I want to ask you is, okay, assume that someone has the right makeup of team. They got some badass people in there, coding away, DevOps, SREs, you name it. Everyone lined up platform teams, as they said today on stage, all that stuff. What's the CXO conversation at the boardroom that you, you have around business strategy. Cuz if you assume that cloud is here and you do things right and you get the right advisors in the next step is what does it transform my business into? Because you're talking about a fully digitalized business that converges it's not just, it helps you run an app back office with some terminal it's full blown business edge app business model innovation is it that the company becomes a cloud on their own and they have scale. And they're the super cloud of their category servicing a power law of second place, third place, SMB market. So I mean, Goldman Sachs could be the service provider cloud for financial services maybe. Or is that the dream? What, what's the dream for the, the, the CXO staff take us through the, >>What they're trying to do is get a level of automation with every able to leverage best breed technology to be as innovative as they possibly can. Using an architecture that's near a hundred percent optimized. It'll never be a hundred percent optimized. Therefore it's able to run, bring the best value to the business for the least amount of money. That's the big thing. If they want to become a cloud, that's, that's not a, not necessarily a good idea. If they're finance company be a finance company, just build these innovations around how to make a finance company be innovative and different for them. So they can be a disruptor without being disrupted. I see where see a lot of companies right now, they're gonna be exposed in the next 10 years because a lot of these smaller companies are able to weaponize technology to bring them to the next level, digital transformations, whatever, to create a business value. That's gonna be more compelling than the existing player >>Because they're on the CapEx back of Amazon or some technical innovation. Is that what the smaller guys, what's the, what's the lever that beats the >>It's the ability to use whatever technology you need to solve your issues. So in other words, I can use anything that exists on the cloud because it's part of the multi-cloud I'm I able to find the services that I need, the best AI system, the best database systems, the fastest transaction processing system, and assemble these syncs together to solve more innovative problems in my competitor. If I'm able to do that, I'm gonna win the game. So >>It's a buffet of technology. Pick your yes, your meal, come on, >>Case spray something, this operations, first thing in my head, remember Alan NA, when he came in the Cub and he said, listen, if you're gonna do cloud, you better change the operating model or you you're gonna make, you know, you'll drop millions to the bottom line. He was at CIO of Phillips at the time. You're not gonna drop billions. And it's all about, you know, the zeros, right? So do you find yourself in a lot of cases, sort of helping people rearchitect their operating model as a function of, of, of what cloud can, can enable? >>Yeah. Every, every engagement that we go into has operating model change op model changes, and typically it's gonna be major surgery. And so it's re reevaluating the skill sets, reevaluating, the operating model, reevaluating the culture. In fact, we have a team of people who come in and that's all they focus on. And so it used to be just kind of an afterthought. We'd put this together, oh, by the way, I think you need to do this and this and this. And here's what we recommend you do. But people who can go in and get cultural changes going get the operating models systems, going to get to the folks where they're gonna be successful with it. Reality. If you don't do that, you're gonna fail because you're not gonna have the ability to adapt to a cloud-based a cloud-based infrastructure. You can leverage this scale. >>David's like a masterclass here on the cube at VMware explore. Thanks for coming on. Thanks for spending the valuable time. Just what's going on in your world right now, take a quick minute to plug what's going on with you. What are you working on? What are you excited about? What what's happening, >>Loving life. I'm just running around doing, doing things like this, doing a lot of speaking, you know, still have the blog on in info world and have that for the last 12 years and just loving the fact that we're innovating and changing the world. And I'm trying to help as many people as I can, as quickly as I can. What's >>The coolest thing you've seen this year in terms of cloud kind of either weirdness coolness or something that made you fall outta your chair. Wow. That >>Was cool. I think the AI capabilities and application of AI, I'm just seeing use cases in there that we never would've thought about the ability to identify patterns that we couldn't identify in the past and do so for, for the good, I've been an AI analyst. It was my first job outta college and I'm 60 years old. So it's, it's matured enough where it actually impresses me. And so we're seeing applications >>Right now. That's NLP anymore. Is it? >>No, no, not list. That's what I was doing, but it's, we're able to take this technology to the next level and do, do a lot of good with it. And I think that's what just kind of blows me on the wall. >>Ah, I wish we had 20 more minutes, >>You know, one, one more masterclass sound bite. So we all kind of have kids in college, David and I both do young ones in college. If you're coming outta college, CS degree or any kind of smart degree, and you have the plethora of now what's coming tools and unlimited ways to kind of clean canvas up application, start something. What would you do if you were like 22? Right now, >>I would focus on being a multi-cloud architect. And I would learn a little about everything. Learn a little about at the various cloud providers. And I would focus on building complex distributed systems and architecting those systems. I would learn about how all these things kind of kind of run together. Don't learn a particular technology because that technology will ultimately go away. It'll be displaced by something else, learn holistically what the technologies is able to do and become the orchestrator of that technology. It's a harder problem to solve, but you'll get paid more for it. And it'll be more fun job. >>Just thinking big picture, big >>Picture, how everything comes together. True architecture >>Problems. All right, Dave is on the queue masterclass here on the cube. Bucha for Dave ante Explorer, 2022. Live back with our next segment. After this short break.

>>Hello, everyone. Welcome to the cubes coverage, extended coverage of the V IP gala event. Earlier in the day, we were at the Monaco crypto summit, where we had 11 years, all the fault leaders here in MoCo coming together. It's a global event. It's an inner circle. It's a beginning, it's an ELG overall event. It's a kernel of the best of the best from finance entrepreneurship government coming together here with the gala event at the yacht club in Monaco. And we got a great lineup here. We have Sherman elder wish from decentralized investment group here with me. She and I was just talking and we're gonna have a great conversation. Welcome to the cube. Thank >>You so much. Thank you for having me. >>It's kind of our laid back to not only have an anchored desk, but we're kind of have conversations. You know, one of the things that we've been talking about is, you know, the technology innovation around decentralized, right? You've been an entrepreneur 9, 9, 9 years. Yes. Plus you're in a region of the world right now where it's exploding. You're in Dubai. Tell your story. You're in Dubai. There's a lot of action what's happening. >>So to Dubai is, is really the bridge between the east and the west. And it's grown. I've, I've had the privilege of witnessing Dubai's growth for over 16 years now. So I've been based in Dubai for 16 years. I'm originally from Jordan, lived in 11 countries. You can call me a global nomad home is where my suitcases and where I, you know, where I'm, I'm literally with my friends and community and the work that I do. So I've been there and I've witnessed this grow through working with the government there as well. So nine years ago, I jumped into the world of entrepreneurship. I specialize in art and education. Also, I work extensively now in decentralized with decentralized investment group. So we specialize in defi game five and also digital assets. So it's a beautiful time to be in Dubai right now. And witness that growth in web three, there's going to be a summit that's actually happening in September. And so it's attracting all the global leaders there with the government there. So they're really investing in, >>You know, the date on that. >>Sorry, >>You know the date on that? Yeah. Oh, >>September. They're going to be September, either 27th or >>28th. So later in the month, >>Yes. Later in the month of September. Okay. So it's very exciting to be a part >>Of that. Well, I love you're on here cause I want, first of all, you look fabulous. Great. Oh, thank you. Great event. Everyone's dressed up here. But one of the things I've been passionate about is women in tech. And I know you've got a project now you're working on this. Yes. Not only because it's it's needed. Yeah, but they're taking over. There's a lot of growth. Absolutely. The young entrepreneurs, young practitioners, absolutely young women all around the world. Absolutely. And we did a five region women in tech on March 7th with Stanford university, amazing. And Amazon web services. And I couldn't believe the stories. So we're gonna do more. And I want to get your take on this because there are stories that need to be told. Absolutely. What are, what are the, some of the stories that you're seeing, some of the, some of the cautionary tales, some of the successes, >>Well, you have, I mean the middle east right now is really a space, especially in Dubai, in the UAE, the growth of women in entrepreneurship, the support that we have from incubators, there, there is a hunger for growth and learning and innovation. And that is the beauty of being there. There are so many incredible stories, not one that I could say right now, but each and every story is exquisite and extraordinary. And what's really amazing is that you have the community there that supports one another, especially women in tech. I'm, I'm actually one of the co-founders of made for you global, which is a tech platform, which attracts entrepreneurship, female entrepreneurs, and really helping them kind of grow to their potential or maximize their potential. And we're actually going to have it on web three as well and integrate it within the blockchain. So there's a lot of, there's a lot of passion for, for growth in women, in tech and, and there's so many incredible stories to come, not just one, so many. And I invite you to come to Dubai so I can introduce you to all >>These incredible. So I'm really glad you're inclusive about men. >>Of course, we're inclusive >>About men, >>You know, men and women. I mean, it's a community that brings together these ideas. >>Yeah. I will say I had to go the microphone one time because I love doing the Stanford women in data science, but they, and we have female, a host. I just wanna do the interviews right there. So smart. I said, Chuck, can we have the female interviews cuz you know, like, okay, but they included me. Oh yes. But in all serious. Now this is a major force because women entrepreneurship make up 50% of the, the target audience of all products. Absolutely. So if, why, why isn't there more developers and input into the products and policies, right? That shape our society. This has been one of those head scratching moments and we're making progress, but not fast enough. >>Absolutely. And you know what, especially after COVID, so after COVID we all learned the lessons of the hybrid models of being more flexible of being more innovative of being making use of our time more effectively. And we've witnessed like an increase in women in tech over the years and especially in web three and decentralized investment group invest heavily into women and in tech as well, >>Give some examples of some things you're working on right now, projects you're investing in. So >>We're, well, everything that we do is inclusive of women. So with game five, for example, we specialize greatly in game five through our subsidiary company, based in the us, it's called X, Y, Z, Z Y it's gaming. And actually many of our creative team are women who are the developers behind the scenes who are bringing it to life. A lot of basically we're trying to educate the public as well about how to get meta mask wallets and to enter into this field. It's all about education and growing that momentum to be able to be more and more inclusive. >>Do you think you can help us get a cube host out there? Of course, of course they gotta be dynamic. Of course smart of course and no teleprompter of >>Course. And we would love for you to come so that we can really introduce you to >>All well now, now that COVID is over. We got a big plan on going cube global, digging it out in 2019, we had London, Bahrain, Singapore, amazing Dubai, Korea. Amazing. And so we wanted to really get out there and create a node, right? And open source kind of vibe where right. The folks all around the world can connect through the network effects. And one thing I noticed about the women in tech, especially in your area is the networking is really high velocity. Absolutely people like the network out there is that, do you see that as well? Absolutely. >>Because it's a, it's a city of transition, you know? So that's the beauty of Dubai, it's positioning power. And also it's a very innovative hub. And so with all of these summits that are coming up, it's attracting the communities and there's lots of networking that happens there. And I think more and more we're seeing with web three is that it is all about the community. It's all about bringing everyone together. >>Well, we got people walking through the sets. See, that's the thing that about a cocktail party. You got people walking through the set that's good. Made, had some color. Rachel Wolfson is in the house. Rachel is here. That's Rachel Woodson. If you didn't recognize her she's with coin Telegraph. Oh bless. I don't know who they, the Glo is as they say, but that's how he went cool to me. All right. So betting back to kinda what you're working on. Have you been to Silicon valley lately? Because you're seeing a lot of peering where people are looking at web three and saying, Hey, Silicon valley is going through a transition too. You're seeing beacons of outposts, right? Where you got people moving to Miami, you got Dubai, you got Singapore, you got, you know, Japan, all these countries. Now there's a, there's a network effect. >>Absolutely. It's all about. And honestly, when I see, I mean, I've been to Miami so many times this year for all the web three events and also in Austin and GTC as well. And what you see is that there is this ripple effect that's happening and it is attracting more and more momentum because the conversations are there and the openness to work together. It's all about partnerships and collaboration. This is a field which is based on collaboration communities. >>Awesome. What are some of the advice advice you have for women out there that are watching around being an entrepreneur? Because we were talking before we came on camera about it's hard. It's not easy. It's not for the faint of heart. Yeah. As Theresa Carlson, a friend of mine used, used to say all the time entrepreneurship was a rollercoaster. Of course, what's your advice don't give up or stay strong. What's your point of view? >>Honestly, if you're passionate about what you do. And I know it sounds very cliche. It's really important to stay focused, moving forward, always. And really it's about partnerships. It's about the ability to network. It's the ability to fail as well. Yeah. And to learn from your mistakes and to know when to ask for help. A lot of the times, you know, we shy away from asking for help or because we're embarrassed, but we need to be more open to failing, to growing and to also collaborating with one another. >>Okay. So final question for you while I got, by the way, you're an awesome guest. Oh, thank you. What are you what's next for you? What are you working on right now? Next year? What's on your goal list. What's your project? What's >>Your top goal? Oh my gosh. >>Top three, >>Top three, definitely immersing myself more into web three. Web three is definitely the future getting made for you global on the ground and running in terms of the networking aspect in a female entrepreneurship, more and more giving back as well. So using web three for social good. So a lot more charitable, innovative kind of campaigns that we hope to host within the web three community to be able to educate, to innovate and also help those that are, that need it the most as >>Well. Shaman, thank you for coming on the cube. I really appreciate it. And thanks for coming on. Thank you >>So much. >>I'm so grateful. Okay. You watching the queue, we're back in the more coverage here at the after party of the event, it's the VIP gala with prince Albert and all the top guests in Monica leaning into crypto I'm John furier. Thanks for watching.

>>And welcome back to the cubes coverage of a, of us. Reinforc here in Boston, Massachusetts. I'm John furrier. We're here for a great interview on the next generation topic of state of industrial security. We have two great guests, Tim Jefferson, senior vice president data network and application security at Barracuda. And Cenon Aron vice president of zero trust engineering at Barracuda. Gentlemen. Thanks for coming on the queue. Talk about industrial security. >>Yeah, thanks for having us. >>So one of the, one of the big things that's going on, obviously you got zero trust. You've got trusted, trusted software supply chain challenges. You've got hardware mattering more than ever. You've got software driving everything, and all this is talking about industrial, you know, critical infrastructure. We saw the oil pipeline had a hack and ransomware attack, and that's just constant barrage of threats in the industrial area. And all the data is pointing to that. This area is gonna be fast growth machine learning's kicking in automation is coming in. You see a huge topic, huge growth trend. What is the big story going on here? >>Yeah, I think at a high level, you know, we did a survey and saw that, you know, over 95% of the organizations are experiencing, you know, security challenges in this space. So, you know, the blast radius in the, of the, the interface that this creates so many different devices and things and objects that are getting network connected now create a huge challenge for security teams to kind of get their arms around that. >>Yeah. And I can add that, you know, majority of these incidents that, that these organizations suffer lead to significant downtime, right? And we're talking about operational technology here, you know, lives depend on, on these technologies, right? Our, our wellbeing everyday wellbeing depend on those. So, so that is a key driver of initiatives and projects to secure industrial IOT and operational technologies in, in these businesses. >>Well, it's great to have both of you guys on, you know, Tim, you know, you had a background at AWS and sit on your startup, founder, soldier, coming to Barracuda, both very experienced, seeing the ways before in this industry. And I'd like to, if you don't mind talk about three areas, remote access, which we've seen in huge demand with, with the pandemic and the out, coming out with the hybrid and certainly industrial, that's a big part of it. And then secondly, that the trend of clear commitment from enterprises to have in a public cloud component, and then finally the secure access edge, you know, with SAS business models, securing these things, these are the three hot areas let's go into the first one, remote access. Why is this important? It seems that this is the top priority for having immediate attention on what's the big challenge here? Is it the most unsecure? Is it the most important? What, why is this relevant? >>So now I'll let you jump in there. >>Yeah, sure. Happy to. I mean, if you think about it, especially now, we've been through a, a pandemic shelter in place cycle for almost two years. It, it becomes essentially a business continuity matter, right? You do need remote access. We also seen a tremendous shift in hiring the best talent, wherever they are, right. Onboarding them and bringing the talent into, into, into, into businesses that have maybe a lot more distributed environments than traditionally. So you have to account for remote access in every part of everyday life, including industrial technologies, you need remote support, right? You need vendors that might be overseas providing you, you know, guidance and support for these technologies. So remote support is every part of life. Whether you work from home, you work on your, on the go, or you are getting support from a vendor that happens to be in Germany, you know, teleporting into your environment in Hawaii. You know, all these things are essentially critical parts of everyday life. Now >>Talk about ZT and a zero trust network access is a, this is a major component for companies. Obviously, you know, it's a position taking trust and verifies. One other approach, zero trust is saying, Hey, I don't trust you. Take us through why that's important. Why is zero trust network access important in this area? >>Yeah. I mean, I could say that traditionally remote access, if you think about infancy of the internet in the nineties, right? It was all about encryption in, in transit, right? You were all about internet was vastly clear text, right? We didn't have even SSL TLS, widely distributed and, and available. So when VPNs first came out, it was more about preventing sniffing, clear tech clear text information from, from, from the network, right? It was more about securing the, the transport, but now that kind of created a, a big security control gap, which implicitly trusted user users, once they are teleported into a remote network, right? That's the essence of having a remote access session you're brought from wherever you are into an internal network. They implicitly trust you that simply breakdown over time because you are able to compromise end points relatively easily using browser exploits. >>You know, so, so for supply chain issues, water hole attacks, and leverage the existing VPN tunnels to laterally move into the organization from within the network, you literally move in further and further and further down, you know, down the network, right? So the VPN needed a, a significant innovation. It was meant to be securing packets and transit. It was all about an encryption layer, but it had an implicit trust problem with zero trust. We turn it into an explicit trust problem, right? Explicit trust concept, ideally. Right? So you are, who do you say you are? And you are authorized to access only to things that you need to access to get the work done. >>So you're talking about granular levels versus the one time database look up you're in >>That's right. >>Tim, talk about the OT it side of this equation of industrial, because it, you know, is IP based, networking, OT have been purpose built, you know, maybe some proprietary technology yeah. That connects to the internet internet, but it's mainly been secure. Those have come together over the years and now with no perimeter security, how is this world evolving? Because there's gonna be more cloud there, be more machine learning, more hybrid on premise, that's going on almost a reset if you will. I mean, is it a reset? What's the, what's the situation. >>Yeah. I think, you know, in typical human behavior, you know, there's a lot of over rotation going on. You know, historically a lot of security controls are all concentrated in a data center. You know, a lot of enterprises had very large sophisticated well-established security stacks in a data center. And as those applications kind of broke down and, and got rearchitected for the cloud, they got more modular, they got more distributed that centralized security stack became an anti pattern. So now this kind of over rotation, Hey, let's take this stack and, and put it up in the cloud. You know, so there's lots of names for this secure access, service edge, you know, secure service edge. But in the end, you know, you're taking your controls and, and migrating them into the cloud. And, you know, I think ultimately this creates a great opportunity to embrace some of security, best practices that were difficult to do in some of the legacy architectures, which is being able to push your controls as far out to the edge as possible. >>And the interesting thing about OT and OT now is just how far out the edge is, right? So instead of being, you know, historically it was the branch or user edge, remote access edge, you know, Syon mentioned that you, you have technologies that can VPN or bring those identities into those networks, but now you have all these things, you know, partners, devices. So it's the thing, edge device edge, the user edge. So a lot more fidelity and awareness around who users are. Cause in parallel, a lot of the IDP and I IBM's platforms have really matured. So marrying those concepts of this, this lot of maturity around identity management yeah. With device in and behavior management into a common security framework is really exciting. But of course it's very nascent. So people are, it's a difficult time getting your arms around >>That. It's funny. We were joking about the edge. We just watching the web telescope photos come in the deep space, the deep edge. So the edge is continuing to be pushed out. Totally see that. And in fact, you know, one of the things we're gonna, we're gonna talk about this survey that you guys had done by an independent firm has a lot of great data. I want to unpack that, but one of the things that was mentioned in there, and I'll get, I wanna get your both reaction to this is that virtually all organizations are committing to the public cloud. Okay. I think it was like 96% or so was the stat. And if you combine in that, the fact that the edge is expanding, the cloud model is evolving at the edge. So for instance, a building, there's a lot behind it. You know, how far does it go? So we don't and, and what is the topology because the topology seem to change too. So there's this growth and change where we need cloud operations, DevOps at, at the edge and the security, but it's changing. It's not pure cloud, but it's cloud. It has to be compatible. What's your reaction to that, Tim? I mean, this is, this is a big part of the growth of industrial. >>Yeah. I think, you know, if you think about, there's kind of two exciting developments that I would think of, you know, obviously there's this increase to the surface area, the tax surface areas, people realize, you know, it's not just laptops and devices and, and people that you're trying to secure, but now they're, you know, refrigerators and, you know, robots and manufacturing floors that, you know, could be compromised, have their firmware updated or, you know, be ransomware. So this a huge kind of increase in surface area. But a lot of those, you know, industrial devices, weren't built around the concept with network security. So kind of bolting on, on thinking through how can you secure who and what ultimately has access to those, to those devices and things. And where is the control framework? So to your point, the control framework now is typically migrated now into public cloud. >>These are custom applications, highly distributed, highly available, very modular. And then, you know, so how do you, you know, collect the telemetry or control information from these things. And then, you know, it creates secure connections back into these, these control applications, which again, are now migrated to public cloud. So you have this challenge, you know, how do you secure? We were talking about this last time we discussed, right. So how do you secure the infrastructure that I've, I've built in deploying now, this control application and in public cloud, and then connect in with this, this physical presence that I have with these, you know, industrial devices and taking telemetry and control information from those devices and bringing it back into the management. And this kind marries again, back into the remote axis that Sunan was mentioning now with this increase awareness around the efficacy of ransomware, we are, you know, we're definitely seeing attackers going after the management frameworks, which become very vulnerable, you know, and they're, they're typically just unprotected web applications. So once you get control of the management framework, regardless of where it's hosted, you can start moving laterally and, and causing some damage. >>Yeah. That seems to be the common thread. So no talk about, what's your reaction to that because, you know, zero trust, if it's evolving and changing, you, you gotta have zero trust you. I didn't even know it's out there and then it gets connected. How do you solve that problem? Cuz you know, there's a lot of surface area that's evolving all the OT stuff and the new, it, what's the, what's the perspective and posture that the clients your clients are having and customers. Well, >>I, I think they're having this conversation about further mobilizing identity, right? We did start with, you know, user identity that become kind of the first foundational building block for any kind of zero trust implementation. You work with, you know, some sort of SSO identity provider, you get your, you sync with your user directories, you have a single social truth for all your users. >>You authenticate them through an identity provider. However that didn't quite cut it for industrial OT and OT environments. So you see like we have the concept of hardware machines, machine identities now become an important construct, right? The, the legacy notion of being able to put controls and, and, and, and rules based on network constructs doesn't really scale anymore. Right? So you need to have this concept of another abstraction layer of identity that belongs to a service that belongs to an application that belongs to a user that belongs to a piece of hardware. Right. And then you can, yeah. And then you can build a lot more, of course, scalable controls that basically understand the, the trust relation between these identities and enforce that rather than trying to say this internal network can talk to this other internal network through a, through a network circuit. No, those things are really, are not scalable in this new distributed landscape that we live in today. So identity is basically going to operationalize zero trust and a lot more secure access going forward. >>And that's why we're seeing the sassy growth. Right. That's a main piece of it. Is that what you, what you're seeing too? I mean, that seems to be the, the approach >>I think like >>Go >>Ahead to, yeah. I think like, you know, sassy to me is really about, you know, migrating and moving your security infrastructure to the cloud edge, you know, as we talked to the cloud, you know, and then, you know, do you funnel all ingress and egress traffic through this, you know, which is potentially an anti pattern, right? You don't wanna create, you know, some brittle constraint around who and what has access. So again, a security best practices, instead of doing all your enforcement in one place, you can distribute and push your controls out as far to the edge. So a lot of SASI now is really around centralizing policy management, which is the big be one of the big benefits is instead of having all these separate management plans, which always difficult to be very federated policy, right? You can consolidate your policy and then decide mechanism wise how you're gonna instrument those controls at the edge. >>So I think that's the, the real promise of, of the, the sassy movement and the, I think the other big piece, which you kind of touched on earlier is around analytics, right? So it creates an opportunity to collect a whole bunch of telemetry from devices and things, behavior consumption, which is, which is a big, common, best practice around once you have SA based tools that you can instrument in a lot of visibility and how users and devices are behaving in being operated. And to Syon point, you can marry that in with their identity. Yeah. Right. And then you can start building models around what normal behavior is and, you know, with very fine grain control, you can, you know, these types of analytics can discover things that humans just can't discover, you know, anomalous behavior, any kind of indicators are compromised. And those can be, you know, dynamic policy blockers. >>And I think sun's point about what he was talking about, talks about the, the perimeters no longer secure. So you gotta go to the new way to do that. Totally, totally relevant. I love that point. Let me ask you guys a question on the, on the macro, if you don't mind, how concerned are you guys on the current threat landscape in the geopolitical situation in terms of the impact on industrial IOT in this area? >>So I'll let you go first. Yeah. >>I mean, it's, it's definitely significantly concerning, especially if now with the new sanctions, there's at least two more countries being, you know, let's say restricted to participate in the global economic, you know, Mar marketplace, right? So if you look at North Korea as a pattern, since they've been isolated, they've been sanctioned for a long time. They actually double down on rents somewhere to even fund state operations. Right? So now that you have, you know, BES be San Russia being heavily sanctioned due to due to their due, due to their activities, we can envision more increase in ransomware and, you know, sponsoring state activities through illegal gains, through compromising, you know, pipelines and, you know, industrial, you know, op operations and, and seeking large payouts. So, so I think the more they will, they're ized they're pushed out from the, from the global marketplace. There will be a lot more aggression towards critical infrastructure. >>Oh yeah. I think it's gonna ignite more action off the books, so to speak as we've seen. Yeah. We've >>Seen, you know, another point there is, you know, Barracuda also runs a, a backup, you know, product. We do a, a purpose built backup appliance and a cloud to cloud backup. And, you know, we've been running this service for over a decade. And historically the, the amount of ransomware escalations that we got were very slow, you know, is whenever we had a significant one, helping our customers recover from them, you know, you know, once a month, but over the last 18 months, this is routine now for us, this is something we deal with on a daily basis. And it's becoming very common. You know, it's, it's been a well established, you know, easily monetized route to market for the bad guys. And, and it's being very common now for people to compromise management planes, you know, they use account takeover. And the first thing they're doing is, is breaking into management planes, looking at control frameworks. And then first thing they'll do is delete, you know, of course the backups, which this sort of highlights the vulnerability that we try to talk to our customers about, you know, and this affects industrial too, is the first thing you have to do is among other things, is, is protect your management planes. Yeah. And putting really fine grain mechanisms like zero trust is, is a great, >>Yeah. How, how good is backup, Tim, if you gets deleted first is like no backup. There it is. So, yeah. Yeah. Air gaping. >>I mean, obviously that's kinda a best practice when you're bad guys, like go in and delete all the backups. So, >>And all the air gaps get in control of everything. Let me ask you about the, the survey pointed out that there's a lot of security incidents happening. You guys pointed that out and discussed a little bit of it. We also talked about in the survey, you know, the threat vectors and the threat landscape, the common ones, ransomware was one of them. The area that I liked, what that was interesting was the, the area that talked about how organizations are investing in security and particularly around this, can you guys share your thoughts on how you see the, the market, your customers and, and the industry investing? What are they investing in? What stage are they in when it comes to IOT and OT, industrial IOT and OT security, do they do audits? Are they too busy? I mean, what's the state of their investment thesis progress of, of, of how they're investing in industrial IOT? >>Yeah. Our, our view is, you know, we have a next generation product line. We call, you know, our next, our cloud chain firewalls. And we have a form factor that sports industrial use cases we call secure connectors. So it's interesting that if you, what we learned from that business is a tremendous amount of bespoke efforts at this point, which is sort of indicative of a, of a nascent market still, which is related to another piece of information I thought was really interested in the survey that I think it was 93% of the, the participants, the enterprises had a failed OT initiative, you know, that, you know, people tried to do these things and didn't get off the ground. And then once we see build, you know, strong momentum, you know, like we have a, a large luxury car manufacturer that uses our secure connectors on the, on the robots, on the floor. >>So well established manufacturing environments, you know, building very sophisticated control frameworks and, and security controls. And, but again, a very bespoke effort, you know, they have very specific set of controls and specific set of use cases around it. So it kind of reminds me of the late nineties, early two thousands of people trying to figure out, you know, networking and the blast radi and networking and, and customers, and now, and a lot of SI are, are invested in this building, you know, fast growing practices around helping their customers build more robust controls in, in helping them manage those environments. So, yeah, I, I think that the market is still fairly nascent >>From what we seeing, right. But there are some encouraging, you know, data that shows that at least helpful of the organizations are actively pursuing. There's an initiative in place for OT and a, you know, industrial IOT security projects in place, right. They're dedicating time and resources and budget for this. And, and in, in regards to industries, verticals and, and geographies oil and gas, you know, is, is ahead of the curve more than 50% responded to have the project completed, which I guess colonial pipeline was the, you know, the call to arms that, that, that was the big, big, you know, industrial, I guess, incident that triggered a lot of these projects to be accelerating and, and, you know, coming to the finish line as far as geographies go DACA, which is Germany, Austria, Switzerland, and of course, north America, which happens to be the industrial powerhouses of, of the world. Well, APAC, you know, also included, but they're a bit behind the curve, which is, you know, that part is a bit concerning, but encouragingly, you know, Western Europe and north America is ahead of these, you know, projects. A lot of them are near completion or, or they're in the middle of some sort of an, you know, industrial IOT security project right >>Now. I'm glad you brought the colonial pipeline one and, and oil and gas was the catalyst. Again, a lot of, Hey, scared that better than, than me kinda attitude, better invest. So I gotta ask you that, that supports Tim's point about the management plane. And I believe on that hack or ransomware, it wasn't actually control of the pipeline. It was control over the management billing, and then they shut down the pipeline cuz they were afraid it was gonna move over. So it wasn't actually the critical infrastructure itself to your point, Tim. >>Yeah. It's hardly over the critical infrastructure, by the way, you always go through the management plane, right. It's such an easier lying effort to compromise because it runs on an endpoint it's standard endpoint. Right? All this control software will, will be easier to get to rather than the industrial hardware itself. >>Yeah. It's it's, it's interesting. Just don't make a control software at the endpoint, put it zero trust. So down that was a great point. Oh guys. So really appreciate the time and the insight and, and the white paper's called NETEC it's on the Barracuda. Netex industrial security in 2022. It's on the barracuda.com website Barracuda network guys. So let's talk about the read force event hasn't been around for a while cuz of the pandemic we're back in person what's changed in 2019 a ton it's like security years is not dog years anymore. It's probably dog times too. Right. So, so a lot's gone on where are we right now as an industry relative to the security cybersecurity. Could you guys summarize kind of the, the high order bit on where we are today in 2022 versus 2019? >>Yeah, I think, you know, if you look at the awareness around how to secure infrastructure in applications that are built in public cloud in AWS, it's, you know, exponentially better than it was. I think I remember when you and I met in 2018 at one of these conferences, you know, there were still a lot of concerns, whether, you know, IAS was safe, you know, and I think the amount of innovation that's gone on and then the amount of education and awareness around how to consume, you know, public cloud resources is amazing. And you know, I think that's facilitated a lot of the fast growth we've seen, you know, the consistent, fast growth that we've seen across all these platforms >>Say that what's your reaction to the, >>I think the shared responsibility model is well understood, you know, and, and, and, and we can see a lot more implementation around, you know, CSBM, you know, continuously auditing the configurations in these cloud environments become a, a standard table stake, you know, investment from every stage of any business, right? Whether from early state startups, all the way to, you know, public companies. So I think it's very well understood and, and the, and the investment has been steady and robust when it comes to cloud security. We've been busy, you know, you know, helping our customers and AWS Azure environments and, and others. So I, I think it's well understood. And, and, and we are on a very optimistic note actually in a good place when it comes to public cloud. >>Yeah. A lot of great momentum, a lot of scale and data act out there. People sharing data, shared responsibility. Tim is in, thank you for sharing your insights here in this cube segment coverage of reinforce here in Boston. Appreciate it. >>All right. Thanks for having >>Us. Thank you. >>Okay, everyone. Thanks for watching the we're here at the reinforced conference. AWS, Amazon web services reinforced. It's a security focused conference. I'm John furier host of the cube. We'd right back with more coverage after the short break.

>>Okay, welcome back. Everyone's Cube's coverage here in Las Vegas for Amazon re Mars machine learning, automation, robotics, and space out. John fir host of the queue. Got a great set of guests here talking about AI, Jason Montgomery CTO and co-founder man and Ryans CEO, founder guys. Thanks for coming on. We're just chatting, lost my train of thought. Cuz we were chatting about something else, your history with DataRobot and, and your backgrounds entrepreneurs. Welcome to the queue. Thanks >>Tur. Thanks for having >>Us. So first, before we get into the conversation, tell me about the company. You guys have a history together, multiple startups, multiple exits. What are you guys working on? Obviously AI is hot here as part of the show. M is Mars machine learning, which we all know is the basis for AI. What's the story. >>Yeah, really. We're we're here for two of the letters and Mars. We're here for the machine learning and the automation part. So at the high level, man is a no code AI application development platform. And basically anybody could log in and start making AI applications. It could be anything from just texting it with the Twilio integration to tell you that you're doing great or that you need to exercise more to integrating with zenes to get support tickets classified. >>So Jason, we were talking too about before he came on camera about the cloud and how you can spin up resources. The data world is coming together and I, and I like to see two flash points. The, I call it the 2010 big data era that began and then failed Hadoop crashed and burned. Yeah. Then out of the, out of the woodwork came data robots and the data stacks and the snowflakes >>Data break snowflake. >>And now you have that world coming back at scale. So we're now seeing a huge era of, I need to stand up infrastructure and platform to do all this heavy lifting. I don't have time to do. Right. That sounds like what you guys are doing. Is that kind of the case? >>That's absolutely correct. Yeah. Typically you would have to hire a whole team. It would take you months to sort of get the infrastructure automation in place, the dev ops DevOps pipelines together. And to do the automation to spin up, spin down, scale up scale down requires a lot of special expertise with, you know, Kubernetes. Yeah. And a lot of the other data pipelines and a lot of the AWS technologies. So we automate a lot of that. So >>If, if DevOps did what they did, infrastructure has code. Yeah. Data has code. This is kind of like that. It's not data ops per se. Is there a category? How do you see this? Cuz it's you could say data ops, but that's also it's DevOps dev. It's a lot going on. Oh yeah. It's not just seeing AI ops, right? There's a lot more, what, what would you call this? >>It's a good question. I don't know if we've quite come up with the name. I know >>It's not data ops. It's not >>Like we call it AI process automation >>SSPA instead of RPA, >>What RPA promised to be. Yes, >>Exactly. But what's the challenge. The number one problem is it's I would say not, not so much all on ever on undifferent heavy lifting. It's a lot of heavy lifting that for sure. Yes. What's involved. What's the consequences of not going this way. If I want to do it myself, can you take me through the, the pros and cons of what the scale scope, the scale of without you guys? >>Yeah. Historically you needed to curate all your data, bring it together and have some sort of data lake or something like that. And then you had to do really a lot of feature engineering and a lot of other sort of data science on the back end and automate the whole thing and deploy it and get it out there. It's a, it's a pretty rigorous and, and challenging problem that, you know, we there's a lot of automation platforms for, but they typically focus on data scientists with these large language models we're using they're pre-trained. So you've sort of taken out that whole first step of all that data collection to start out and you can basically start prototyping almost instantly because they've already got like 6 billion parameters, 10 billion parameters in them. They understand the human language really well. And a lot of other problems. I dunno if you have anything you wanna add to that, Ryan, but >>Yeah, I think the other part is we deal with a lot of organizations that don't have big it teams. Yeah. And it would be impossible quite frankly, for them to ever do something like deploy text, track as an example. Yeah. They're just not gonna do it, but now they can come to us. They know the problem they want solved. They know that they have all these invoices as an example and they wanna run it through a text track. And now with us they can just drag and drop and say, yeah, we want tech extract. Then we wanted to go through this. This is what we >>Want. Expertise is a huge problem. And the fact that it's changing too, right? Yeah. Put that out there. You guys say, you know, cybersecurity challenges. We guys do have a background on that. So you know, all the cutting edge. So this just seems to be this it, I hate to say transformation. Cause I not the word I'm looking for, I'd say stuck in the mud kind of scenario where they can't, they have to get bigger, faster. Yeah. And the scale is bigger and they don't have the people to do it. So you're seeing the rise of managed service. You mentioned Kubernetes, right? I know this young 21 year old kid, he's got a great business. He runs a managed service. Yep. Just for Kubernetes. Why? Because no, one's there to stand up the clusters. >>Yeah. >>It's a big gap. >>So this, you have these sets of services coming in now, where, where do you guys fit into that conversation? If I'm the customer? My problem is what, what is my, what is my problem that I need you guys for? What does it look like to describe my problem? >>Typically you actually, you, you kind of know that your employees are spending a lot of time, a lot of hours. So I'll just give you a real example. We have a customer that they were spending 60 hours a week just reviewing these accounts, payable, invoices, 60 hours a week on that. And they knew there had to be a better way. So manual review manual, like when we got their data, they were showing us these invoices and they had to have their people circle the total on the invoice, highlight the customer name, the >>Person who quit the next day. Right? >>No like they, they, Hey, you know, they had four people doing this, I think. And the point is, is they come to us and we say, well, you know, AI can, can just basically using something like text track can just do this. And then we can enrich those outputs from text track with the AI. So that's where the transformers come in. And when we showed them that and got them up and running in about 30 minutes, they were mind blown. Yeah. And now this is a company that doesn't have a big it department. So the >>Kind, and they had the ability to quantify the problem >>They knew. And, and in this case it was actually a business user. It was not a technical >>In is our she consequence technical it's hours. She consequences that's wasted. Manual, labor wasted. >>Exactly. Yeah. And, and to their point, it was look, we have way more high, valuable tasks that our people could be doing yeah. Than doing this AP thing. It takes 60 hours. And I think that's really important to remember about AI. What're I don't think it's gonna automate away people's jobs. Yeah. What it's going to do is it's going to free us up to focus on what really matters and focus on the high value stuff. And that's what people should >>Be doing. I know it's a cliche. I'm gonna say it again. Cause I keep saying, cause I keep saying for people to listen, the bank teller argument always was the big thing. Oh yeah. They're gonna get killed by the ATM machine. No, they're opening up more branches. That's right. That's right. So it's like, come on. People let's get, get over that. So I, I definitely agree with that. Then the question, next question is what's your secret sauce? I'm the customer I'm gonna like that value proposition. You make something go away. It's a pain relief. Then there's the growth side. Okay. You can solve from problems. Now I want this, the, the vitamin you got aspirin. And I want the vitamin. What's the growth angle for you guys with your customers. What's the big learnings. Once they get the beach head with problem solving. >>I think it, it, it it's the big one is let's say that we start with the account payable thing because it's so our platform's so approachable. They go in and then they start tinkering with the initial, we'll call it a template. So they might say, Hey, you know what, actually, in this edge case, I'm gonna play with this. And not only do I want it to go to our accounting system, but if it's this edge case, I want it to email me. So they'll just drag and drop an email block into our canvas. And now they're making it >>Their own. There is the no code, low code's situation. They're essentially building a notification engine under the covers. They have no idea what they're doing. That's >>Right. They get the, they just know that, Hey, you know what? When, when like the amount's over $10,000, I want an email. They know that's what they want. They don't, they don't know that's the notification engine. Of >>Course that's value email. Exactly. I get what I wanted. All right. So tell me about the secret sauce. What's under the covers. What's the big, big, big scale, valuable, valuable, secret sauce. >>I would say part of it. And, and honestly, the reason that we're able to do this now is transformer architecture. When the transformer papers came out and then of course the attention is all you need paper, those kind of unlocked it and made this all possible. Beyond that. I think the other secret sauce we've been doing this a long time. >>So we kind of, we know we're in the paid points. We went to those band points. Cause we weren't data scientists or ML people. >>Yeah. >>Yeah. You, you walked the snow and no shoes on in the winter. That's right. These kids now got boots on. They're all happy. You've installed machines. You've loaded OSS on, on top of rack switches. Yeah. I mean, it's unbelievable how awesome it's right now to be a developer and now a business user's doing the low code. Yep. If you have the system architecture set up, so back to the data engineering side, you guys had the experience got you here. This is a big discussion right now. We're having in, in, on the cube and many conversations like the server market, you had that go away through Amazon and Google was one of the first, obviously the board, but the idea that servers could be everywhere. So the SRE role came out the site reliability engineer, right. Which was one guy or gal and zillions of servers. Now you're seeing the same kind of role with data engineering. And then there's not a lot of people that fit the requirement of being a data engineer. It's like, yeah, it's very unique. Cause you're dealing with a system architecture, not data science. So start to see the role of this, this, this new persona, because they're taking on all the manual challenges of doing that. You guys are kind of replaced that I think. Well, do you agree with it about the data engineer? First of all? >>I think, yeah. Well and it's different cuz there's the older data engineer and then there's sort of the newer cloud aware one who knows how to use all the cloud technologies. And so when you're trying, we've tried to hire some of those and it's like, okay, you're really familiar with old database technology, but can you orchestrate that in a serverless environment with a lot of AWS technology for instance. And it's, and that's hard though. They don't, they don't, there's not a lot of people who know that space, >>So there's no real curriculum out there. That's gonna teach you how to handle, you know, ETL. And also like I got I'm on stream data from this source. Right. I'm using sequel I'm I got put all together. >>Yeah. So it's yeah, it's a lot of just not >>Data science. It's >>Figure that out. So its a large language models too. We don't have to worry about some of the data there too. It's it's already, you know, codified in the model. And then as we collect data, as people use our platform, they can then curate data. They want to annotate or enrich the model with so that it works better as it goes. So we're kind of curating, collecting the data as it's used. So as it evolves, it just gets better. >>Well, you guys obviously have a lot of experience together and congratulations on the venture. Thank you. What's going on here at re Mars. Why are you here? What's the pitch. What's the story. Where's your, you got two letters. You got the, you got the M for the machine learning and AI and you got the, a for automation. What's the ecosystem here for you? What are you doing? >>Well, I mean, I think you, you kind of said it right. We're here because the machine learning and the automation part, >>But >>More, more widely than that. I mean we work very, very closely with Amazon on a number of front things like text track, transcribe Alexa, basically all these AWS services are just integrations within our system. So you might want to hook up your AI to an Alexa so that you could say, Hey Alexa, tell me updates about my LinkedIn feed. I don't know, whatever, whatever your hearts content >>Is. Well what about this cube transcription? >>Yeah, exactly. A hundred percent. >>Yeah. We could do that. You know, feed all this in there and then we could do summarization of everything >>Here, >>Q and a extraction >>And say, Hey, these guys are >>Technicals. Yeah, >>There you go. No, they mentioned Kubernetes. We didn't say serverless chef puppet. Those are words straight, you know, and no linguistics matters right into that's a service that no one's ever gonna build. >>Well, and actually on that point, really interesting. We work with some healthcare companies and when you're basically, when people call in and they call into the insurance, they have a question about their, what like is this gonna be covered? And what they want to key in on are things like I just went to my doctor and got a cancer diagnosis. So the, the, the relevant thing here is they just got this diagnosis. And why is that important? Well, because if you just got a diagnosis, they want to start a certain triage to make you successful with your treatments. Because obviously there's an >>Incentive to do time. That time series matters and, and data exactly. And machine learning reacts to it. But also it could be fed back old data. It used to be time series to store it. Yeah. But now you could reuse it to see how to make the machine learning better. Are you guys doing anything, anything around that, how to make that machine learning smarter, look doing look backs or maybe not the right word, but because you have data, I might as well look back at it's happened. >>So part of, part of our platform and part of what we do is as people use these applications, to your point, there's lots of data that's getting generated, but we capture all that. And that becomes now a labeled data set within our platform. And you can take that label data set and do something called fine tuning, which just makes the underlying model more and more yours. It's proprietary. The more you do it. And it's more accurate. Usually the more you do it. >>So yeah, we keep all that. I wanna ask your reaction on this is a good point. The competitive advantage in the intellectual property is gonna be the workflows. And so the data is the IP. If this refinement happens, that becomes intellectual property. Yeah. That's kind of not software. It's the data modeling. It's the data itself is worth something. Are you guys seeing that? >>Yeah. And actually how we position the company is man team is a control plane and you retain ownership of the data plane. So it is your intellectual property. Yeah. It's in your system, it's in your AWS environment. >>That's not what everyone else is doing. Everyone wants to be the control plane and the data plan. We >>Don't wanna own your data. We don't, it's a compliance and security nightmare. Yeah. >>Let's be, Real's the question. What do you optimize for? Great. And I think that's a fair, a fair bet. Given the fact that clients want to be more agile with their data anyway, and the more restrictions you put on them, why would that this only gets you in trouble? Yeah. I could see that being a and plus lock. In's gonna be a huge factor. Yeah. I think this is coming fast and no one's talking about it in the press, but everyone's like run to silos, be a silo and that's not how data works. No. So the question is how do you create siloing of data for say domain specific applications while maintaining a horizontally scalable data plan or control plan that seems to be kind of disconnected everyone to lock in their data. What do you guys think about that? This industry transition we're in now because it seems people are reverting back to fourth grade, right. And to, you know, back to silos. >>Yeah. I think, well, I think the companies probably want their silo of data, their IP. And so as they refine their models and, and we give them the ability to deploy it in their own stage maker and their own VPC, they, they retain and own it. They can actually get rid of us and they still have that model. Now they may have to build, you know, a lot of pipelines and other technology to support it. But well, >>Your lock in is usability. Exactly. And value. Yeah. Value proposition is the lock in bingo. That's not counterintuitive. Exactly. Yeah. You say, Hey, more value. How do I wanna get rid of it? Valuable. I'll pay for it. Right. As long as you have multiple value, step up. And that's what cloud does. I mean, think that's the thing about cloud. That's gonna make all this work. In my opinion, the value enablement is much higher. Yeah. So good business model. Anything else here at the show that you observed that you like, that you think people would be interested in? What's the most important story coming out of the, the holistic, if you zoom up and look at re Mars, what's, what's coming out of the vibe. >>You know, one thing that I think about a lot is we're, you know, we have Artis here, humanity hopefully soon gonna be going to Mars. And I think that's really, really exciting. And I also think when we go to Mars, we're probably not gonna send a bunch of software engineers up there. >>Right. So like robots will do break fix now. So, you know, we're good. It's gone. So services are gonna be easy. >>Yeah. But I, oh, >>I left that device back at earth. I just think that's not gonna be good. Just >>Replicated it in one. I think there's like an eight >>Minute, the first monopoly on next day delivery in space. >>They'll just have a spaceship that sends out drones to Barss. Yeah. But I think that when we start going back to the moon and we go to Mars, people are gonna think, Hey, I need this application now to solve this problem that I didn't anticipate having. And in science fiction, we kind of saw this with like how, right? Like you had this AI on this computer or this, on this spaceship that could do all this stuff. We need that. And I haven't seen that here yet. >>No, it's not >>Here yet. And >>It's right now I think getting the hardware right first. Yep. But we did a lot of reporting on this with the D O D and the tactile edge, you know, military applications. It's a fundamental, I won't say it's a tech, religious argument. Like, do you believe in agile realtime data or do you believe in democratizing multi-vendor, you know, capability? I think, I think the interesting needs to sort itself out because sometimes multi vendor multi-cloud might not work for an application that needs this database or this application at the edge. >>Right. >>You know, so if you're in space, the back haul, it matters. >>It really does. Yeah. >>Yeah. Not a good time to go back and get that highly available data. You mean highly, is it highly available or there's two terms highly available, which means real time and available. Yeah. Available means it's on a dis, right? >>Yeah. >>So that's a big challenge. Well guys, thanks for coming on. Plug for the company. What are you guys up to? How much funding do you have? How old are you staff hiring? What's some of the details. >>We're about 45 people right now. We are a globally distributed team. So we hire every like from every country, pretty much we are fully remote. So if you're looking for that, hit us up, definitely always look for engineers, looking for more data scientists. We're very, very well funded as well. And yeah. So >>You guys headquarters out, you guys headquartered. >>So a lot of us live in Columbus, Ohio that's technically HQ, but like I said, we we're in pretty much every continent except in Antarctica. So >>You're for all virtual. >>Yeah. A hundred percent virtual, a hundred percent. >>Got it. Well, congratulations and love to hear that Datadog story at another time >>Or DataBot >>Yeah. I mean data, DataBot sorry. Let's get, get all confused >>Data dog data company. >>Well, thanks for coming on and congratulations for your success and thanks for sharing. Yeah. >>Thanks for having us for having >>Pleasure to be here. It's a cube here at rebars. I'm John furier host. Thanks for watching more coming back after this short break.

>>Hello, and welcome to the cube conversation here in Palo Alto, California. I'm John furier host of the cube. We got a great guest, a chief information security officer CISO, Alex Shukman who's with Colgate Paul mall of company, Alex. Thanks for coming on this cube conversation. >>Thanks for having me, >>John. So fresh off the heels of RSA in San Francisco was quite the spectacle people back in person. Um, a lot of great conversations, kind of the old conversations, moving to the new, uh, really good to see, but CISO, the CISO agenda was clear on everyone's mind, more attacks, no surface area. Perimeter's dead. You got cloud native shift left, SBOs open sourced, supply chain and technology. Uh, software's now open source. How do you deal with that? A lot of complicated issues all through the prism of constantly being hacked with ransomware, everything else going on, you're in the middle of it. You gotta protect manufacturing assets, people, assets, intellectual property, you're in the middle of it. What's, what's the view. What's your current scope, the problem that you're dealing with every day. >>Yeah, it's really interesting world we live in today. Um, and, and definitely, uh, you know, the key topics were jumping around in RSA. Um, you know, everyone seems to be really trying to understand the, the environment better. And, you know, I, I think in the past we saw a lot of attacks against financial sector, a a lot of, of tax against critical infrastructure, but now many of us in the private sector, uh, especially in the non-critical manufacturing areas, you know, we're seeing the same thing that those industries have seen for many years. And so the criminals are getting, you know, less picky about their targets and, and they're targeting, uh, publicly traded companies, as much as they're targeting critical infrastructure. They're not as, uh, picky as they used to be. >>Yeah. You know, you see healthcare, financial services, uh, manufacturing, um, all there, intellectual, property's a big one, but you have, you know, now as you guys have your business, you're dealing with a global, um, borderless environment. You know, that's a big thing. You also have service providers probably work with. So you gotta have the business operations run modern in a modern way at the same time, protect in the modern way. What is the top agenda item for you in your sector, in, in manufacturing, in this area? What's the main high level, um, important task that you usually face every day? >>Yeah. When we talk to a lot of our, our peer companies or peers in the security industry, uh, especially in, in, at RSA, you know, a lot of 'em are very focused on their, their us business, a as well as you know, how to protect themselves. You know, I think one of the things that's really interesting about FGI Pala is that we are a global company and we really do have operations everywhere, uh, both from an, an office presence, a business presence, as well as manufacturing. So, you know, everything that, that those companies have to deal with who are primarily us based, and maybe they're aligning with some us intelligence, uh, we have to, to really incorporate global threats into our security program. Uh, and, and I think that's one of the really interesting things about Colgate, especially for people, uh, maybe who are familiar with our products, cuz they grew up using them. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, uh, you know, we have products, uh, all over the world and depending on which area you're in, you know, we are the one security team who's responsible for protecting the entire Colgate world. >>How has the pandemic pulled forward issues or highlighted more necessity around certain areas? Obviously the work from home thing is pretty obvious for many people and who would've thought you'd have to provision a hundred percent VPNs or whatever endpoint protection. Um, what, how has that affected you, your, your area, your company and your sector, um, how has the pandemic impacted your security? >>Yeah, and I think this is a really interesting topic. You've I I've heard many other people, uh, talk about their response to the COVID 19 pandemic over the last few years. Um, you know, I, I think the, the, the best way to answer it from, from my personal perspective is if, if you were prepared for remote work or you were prepared for a partially remote workforce, then you really could have been very prepared for the pandemic. So even prior to the pandemic, you had people traveling on business and you needed to provide system access, but in a secure way, you had people doing short term assignments, you had a remote sales force and you had a number of different, especially being a global company, uh, people working out of an office, that's not their traditional office. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. If, if you look at all the security prepared, preparedness that you need to do to enable all that, it's not that much different than the pandemic, except that it's really on steroids and it's gone a hundred times further. >>It makes everyone work harder. Yeah. You have to prepare for the a hundred percent scenario, not, you know, not some, uh, um, estimate, um, good, good call out. And the other thing too, is that there's also these, these markets where it gets pulled forward, but then pulls back when the pandemic is over. Have you seen any of that as we kind of come into our third year of, I guess, hybrid being steady state, what has kind of gone away, fell off the plate? What's been, what's the steady state. How do you, have you seen anything kind of go back? >>Yeah, I, I think one of the things that kind of seems to ping pong back and forth is, is our ability to really rely on suppliers to, to deliver it equipment. So, you know, being a, a global company we're, we have employees all over the world, we have it infrastructure that we're supporting across the globe. And, and as you see, different countries go into lockdowns, as you see different suppliers faced with, with different pressures, you know, that seems to be something that kind of ebbs and flows over the last few years, uh, being able to get laptops, being able to get multiple devices, being able to get communications equipment. So, um, you know, I think some of those industries are still trying to evolve, uh, post pandemic. Right. >>You know, I always, I always like to ask the question privately, but I won't do it on camera, how much budget you have and how much you spend on cyber. Um, but you know, generally speaking, I think it's pretty safe to say the number's going up and up, um, cuz of the threats and you got more vectors coming in, but on the question of what tools and platforms work best for you, what are you looking for? What works best from your perspective, as you evaluate new things, right? You gotta look at the new, then you gotta keep up with the state of the art to, to be ahead of the bad guys and obvious you take risk management very seriously, as well as prepare. Right. So what are some of the tools that work for you? What do you see out there that that's getting your attention? >>Yeah, you know, I, I look at a lot of different vendor solutions. I think, uh, that's pretty prevalent in our industry. I look for solutions from large names, suppliers that have been around for a number of years, but I also like to, to look at startup companies who are really trying to innovate and, and make a solution, that number one is easy to implement. And number two is, is easy to keep working. If, if we're spending more time keeping a solution working than we are using the solution. I think that's one of the pain points that than other security, uh, programs are, are fighting with. You know, we try to really avoid those types of solutions, put something in, make sure that it works well so that we can really focus on getting the value out of the solution versus trying to keep it running. >>You know, the old SAS equation, helping the enterprise get better at the old enterprise playbook, which was how do you solve complexity by adding more complexity and, you know, lock in or, you know, <laugh> more costs, hidden costs under the water, so to speak or the shark fan or the iceberg, uh, cost of ownership. I mean, so it's a time to value shift, um, cuz your time's valuable and you've got staff and the hiring's not easy. This is a huge point. >>Yeah. We're a manufacturing organization. Obviously our, our goal as a company is to produce, to sell to consumers. You know, it is a cost center. We're trying to be as efficient as possible yet still support our business and keep it safe. So, uh, if we're investing in a security solution or if we're investing in, in a, a vendor solution that that does provide some layer of protection, you know, we wanna make sure that that's efficient as possible for us and, and that we get value out of it immediately. Uh, you know, that's always the, the hardest thing to try to find a solution that, that fits your business, but also delivers value to your organization. >>You know, it's interesting, you mention it as a cost center and you're talking about cyber security, which is the, the jewels of the company. You're talking about the criticality of the business model. One hat could really take down companies. So you, you it's really offense you're it's profit center in inherently. If you look at it that way. Um, and a lot of people are looking at this this way because you're a private company, you're not a government, you don't have a militia, you got cyber protection issues. So there's a real trend for CISOs to come together. And we're seeing this, uh, about sharing for instance, you know, sharing a threat information. So there's been a big movement in the CISO community. Uh, and I'm curious to get your reaction to this and what your conversations are, where sharing is really about collective intelligence and winning and ex and helping each other. And there's this, it's a, it's a, it's an enable user enablement, a CISO enablement kind of vibe. How do you have those conversations? What is, uh, when you huddle with your CISO buddies and friends and colleagues, what's the conversations like, is this sharing thing real is how do you do it effectively? Is it data rooms? Is it, how do you protect the information? Can you share your perspective on that? Cause this is a kind of a real cutting edge area right now. >>Yeah, I think in the, in the public sector, especially in, in, uh, in the government side, as well as critical manufacturing, critical infrastructure, you know, they really do it best in class and have done it for years out, out of necessity. Uh, what's really nice to see, especially on CS a and some of the latest initiatives like shields up is, is a lot more public private sharing going on. There's a lot more information available to us as a private company. Who's not part of, of the DIB or any of the intelligence community, but at the same time, we need to protect ourselves from the bad guys as much as they do. So, you know, I like the fact that that we're seeing CS a do more and more outreach to connect public and private sector, plus there's more and more sharing initiatives going on in the ISAC communities and making sure that barrier is low and, and they're, they're sharing, uh, threat Intel IOCs, but in a safe way among a, a community of security practitioners, security practitioners are, are great at sharing. They just need the permission to do so. >>Exactly. And then getting that, getting that mindset of, we're not just a cost setter, we're a critical division or group that protects the assets. And I think that's where I seen security elevate from the it world where yeah, King's born in it, cuz that's where that, where everything is, assets are all there. And then as assets change it, you guys have a lot of operational technology called OT on your manufacturing. You gotta deal with that. Now that's usually locked down. Pretty good. Right. <laugh> so as you bring OT and it together, you guys are in the middle of that industrial I OT world. >>Yeah. What's really interesting about my, uh, career at Colgate. I I've been here for, for 25 years and uh, actually the majority of my career has been in it supporting business applications, uh, either for our sales force or our manufacturing organization, our finance and HR teams. So I really got a, a good partnership with our business teams and really understood what they were trying to deliver. Then in the last few years, when I shifted over security, it really helped me bridge that gap and understand, you know, what the business systems are doing, what the OT systems are doing and then how to best secure them. >>Yeah, it's interesting. It's it kind of goes away. It's everything now it's digital, right? Digital digitization, digital transformation. This is what what's awesome. And this is what I love about the cloud scale and it's about bringing the two worlds together and the hybrid is a steady state. Now, both workforce and environment, Alex. Great to get your perspective. Um, thanks for sharing, um, insight here on the cube. Final question, give a plug for what you're working on. What's the cool projects you got going. If you can share a little bit without getting confidential information out there, what's going on at Colgate? Uh what's on your plate. What are you excited about? Put a plug. Are you looking for hiring, give a quick plug for what you got working on? >>I mean, we have a great team. Uh, we've been growing the team steadily, uh, building out our, our security program. Uh, you know, we're always looking to hire new talent, uh, from different industries. Uh, we've been very focused on making sure that that we're building a diverse talent group inside my security program. So I'm not just looking for, uh, security practitioners. Who've been doing this for 25 years, but I've been hiring from various places like, uh, infrastructure service provider consultants, pen testers, and really trying to build, uh, uh, the best team possible. >>Yeah, just as a side to real quick note is I was chatting with a friend of mine the other day were old, old Foggie. Um, the young guns have never racked gear before. Right. They don't, they've never loaded Linux on a box. So, you know, as you start hiring some of the young talent, what's it like, what are they coming in? Obviously they probably probably have a broader CS perspective. Maybe they're probably more familiar, but you know, some of the different really rack gear all. So what is it like, what, what are some of the new, new, new young folks looking at right now? What's the, what's the skill. >>Yeah, they they're, they're used to cloud consoles and right clicking to, uh, to spin up a computer. And in an our day we unboxed the computer, put racks on, you know, had to plug in power and network and figure out, uh, you know, the right way to, to, to hook everything up and even load an OS. I mean, uh, you know, you're right out of, uh, university today, you, you probably right. Click spin up a, uh, an image in, in one of the public clouds and the OS boom comes up automatically for you, like imagine. So they >>Probably are like fish to water on the, on the dashboards and the, on some of the security challenges I can imagine they have a nice fit there, >>But at the same time, uh, you know, they have a great understanding of, uh, containers. They have a great understanding of server list. So you can really, uh, kind of marry the, the old school technology with some of the new ways of working. >>Yeah. Great stuff. Great. We'll have to do a segment on, uh, on talent and what the new roles are. A lot of openings, a lot of new opportunities. It really is a great time to be in this new digital, I don't know what the call it's nearly not it anymore. It's just digital transformation. Uh, it's just, it's just the way it is. Thanks for coming on. Appreciate it, Alex. Thanks for your time. >>Thanks a lot, John. Okay. Take >>Care. Just a cube conversation here in Palo Alto. I'm John fur host of the cube. Thanks for watching.

>>We're back with the Cube's coverage of Von 2022 from the aria in Las Vegas, we're talking pure data protection and nobody better to talk you about that than pure storage. You can't miss these guys when they're around because the orange crush is here. Dave ante for Dave Nicholson, Michael Sonic is here. He is the vice president of global alliances at pure storage. Michael. Good to see you again. Thanks for the little golf. Appreciate joy Lee. Yeah, appreciate that. Hopefully you get out there my back and, uh, be seen. So how you doing, man? I'm doing face to face. >>It's wonderful to be face to face with the cube. It's, uh, always a pleasure to have the opportunity to spend some time with you. Good to meet you. Good to meet. You have the opportunity to get, spend some time together. You guys, um, it's just great being at a show my first one back. And so I'm, uh, you know, just feeling the energy from the room and, uh, just great to come in here and see the cube all lit >>Up. Yeah. Accelerate 2019 in Austin was an awesome event. And, and one of the last ones that we did before, you know, the pandemic for all of us, um, we did some obviously support for, for virtual. You guys are having another show finally face to face in June. So look forward to that. Got it. >>20 days, 21 days, >>We'll see you there. Right. So tell us about what's going on with Veeam. Give us the update. Yeah, >>Look, we're thrilled to be here as a sponsor for Veeam and for Veeam on, uh, this is a longstanding partnership, you know, us, right. So found in 2009 start shipping product in 2012, um, really disrupted the block storage space with an all flash solution. Yeah. And you know, it's, it's a success story in terms of company going from single product to multi-product to portfolio, to solution. And along that way, the data protection use case and workload has really come into the, you know, kind of center focus for us first with flash blade in the market, which is our unified fast file and object solution. And more recently with flash array C, which is our capacity optimized flash array for block storage, which is a great relationship with Veeam and an area where we've done some, um, significant, you know, joint engineering and the FAC, which is what we refer to it as. >>And the Veeam selling motion is extremely strong. Um, and you know, it's, it's solving a real problem and that is, you know, customers are increasingly being faced with these, um, tighter and tighter SLAs to ensure the availability of their data is there. And then there's also, you know, the, the security element. And I think a term that VES using here was cyber resiliency, which I like, right. I mean, you know, the, um, safe mode integration, which is our solution for IM mutability and, and for, um, anti ransomware or, or one step to take, to, to safeguard yourself in a, against a ransomware event. Um, you know, that those are great complimentary parts of us. And indeed, >>You know, Michael, I, I, I want to ask you about your shared vision with, with Veeam. I remember I was talking to cause on the cube. Um, it might have been a 2019. I can't remember. Might have been the year before that. No, I >>Think shorts or pants. >>Sorry. >>Was he in shorts or pants? He was in pants. >>Ah, okay. So I was pushing him on, well, why don't you do it this way? Why don't you do that? Why don't you do tiering all this stuff? And it just always came back to simplicity. He said, we optimize for simplicity over all this complexity and you know, we'll get the, the function through the ecosystem partnership. So is that the shared vision with Veeam? I mean, that, it's kind of, it's just work. It just works is their mantra. But, but talk about that shared vision as particularly as it relates to data protection and cyber resiliency. >>Yeah. Thanks so much for, for recalling that Dave, cuz it, it, we hear it constantly. It's it's in the, now that we're coming back to the office, it's in the hallways, it's out in front of conference rooms, you know, the, the elegance and, and the, and the, um, value and simplicity is everywhere inside of pure. Um, I would say it's part of our shared vision. I think it's customer centricity is at the core of what Veeam and pure, you know, has really fused us together. We're both global, you know, their history is European based and grew up out of there and then have succeeded in north America. Ours is absolutely north America based first on the west coast, then across the country. And then finally into Europe, more recently globally and, and, and a lot of growth internationally, including APJ. So it's customer centricity, it's global, it's the way we go to the customer. So a partner centric go to market motion is live and well in both organizations, uh, solution providers, MSPs, GSIs, you know, range of different ways to get to that customer. Um, and without a doubt, the customer experience is, is part of the, is part of the piece. And, and that's where our simplicity is, um, front and center. And, and I know vem is the same >>Dig, dig it into it. Go ahead. >>Yeah. Yeah, no. So, so out in the real world, are the conversations still about flash for backup and recovery convincing people that that makes sense or, or have we moved on to where now it's the pure flash value proposition BEC because people accept that flash makes sense. Where, where are we in the real world? >>Yeah, I, I think it's, it's different in different industries, different use cases, different workloads, different environments, and it's, um, part of a bigger story. But I think what, what is happening now is, um, we were before the inevitability of flash as the data center, primary storage solution, but now, like, I don't think anyone would debate that. Right. And, and I think now in data protection flash as a component to a robust, secure data protection, both as a target for backup and as a source of recovery is an inevitability to be part of that conversation. Flash is >>There, you guys like to be first at a lot of things, you know, gives you bragging rights, but it also gives you market momentum. Again, I'll pull it. My, my bag of pure memories. I remember meeting Scott Deason, who was the first CEO of, of pure, it's only been two to my knowledge, right. Scott was first Charlie G Carlo now, um, in, in, it was early days, it was 2009, like in an Oracle open world or something. And he was telling me about this startup that he's doing. And, and one of the things that struck me is the vision around the API economy, which was new at the time. It was like, well, okay, what's that? And that's really, what's, what's happened here. It's part of simplicity. It's part about ecosystem. We were talking about products versus platforms. You can't really have a platform unless you have an ecosystem. So where are we at today? How does that relate to your partnership with, with Veeam? Yeah. >>It, it's such a great recall on your part, you know, cause I think, um, we are a storage company. We do provide a raise in the wild, you know, over 10,000 customer, tens of thousands of arrays now. And you know, but at the core, it's the software that matters and, and that's really what drives the user experience. And we're proud to be, you know, the development partner on the universal storage API, the us API for Veeam, that is a essential ingredient to success for the joint pure and vem customer experience. It gives them that single pane of glass, that administrative view, where they're able to get the information they need on what's happening within their environment and be able to take corrective action. And, you know, we're very proud of all the tools that we provide our storage customers, but in a da in a data protection use case and workload, they want to put, you know, they want to go right to Veeam and, and have that be the source of truth. And that's where that API is so important. >>What, what's the story to customers, Michael, in terms of particularly cyber resilience, you've got obviously got a TCO play, simple equals lower cost. Um, you got really much tighter service level agreements and requirements now, um, the security, the storage and data protection and security space are kind of coming together. So what's the narrative for customers. Give me the pitch. Yeah, >>Look, I think, I think every customer today has an obligation to include security as a must have within their solution anywhere in the data center. And for us, it's, you know, simply put the combination of Veeam for data protection, with pure for FlashRay C or flash blade with safe mode, you know, which provides that imutability provides that customer with a safeguarded copy against bad actors externally to their organization, or was jointly developed with a customer to prevent the risk of bad actors inside of the organization. Um, city of new Orleans is one of the customer references that's up on, you know, the pure storage website, just a, a great, um, you know, story in terms of the city's ability to defend against ransomware attack, continue, you know, with continuity of essential services, police, ambulances, fire departments, um, all on the combination of pure and deem. And so, you know, a good, you know, example to pull that thread all the way through in terms of what the value proposition is. And then what's the experience for the customer when they are find themselves on the other side of that event. >>What's the nature of the partnership, um, with, with Veeam, obviously there's a go to market, um, are there, you know, solutions that you guys are doing together, engineering work that you're doing together? Can you explain that? Yeah, >>You bet. I mean, you know, these are two of, uh, I think high profile adjacencies in the data center, you've got your primary storage and then secondary tertiary, and you've got your data protection use case and workload. Um, with Veeam, we've got dedicated engineering to the Veeam partnership on the pure side, as a development partner for the us API, um, you know, is a, is a key piece we're integrated into what the support experience is like for the customer. And really trying, starting to challenge ourselves now with some of the leadership changes that beam's taken on and the opportunity to sit down and, and spend some time, you know, with the non and, and John, and really say, Hey, like we're at the core here, we've got an opportunity. Let's, let's open up some strategic doors and see what could be next. >>Well, Veeam Ising, there's no question it's kind of early Veeam was the wild west that's right. Course big parties are still, you know, the reputational, but, but as you think about these joint engineering and joint go to market and you talk to, to joint customers, where do you see sort of the future? I mean, I, I, you know, the ransomware stuff, obviously the pandemic was impossible to predict. I, I shouldn't say that a lot of people did predict it, but now that we see it, but now that you have some visibility on these permanent changes that are affecting CSO, buying strategies, data protection, storage, buying strategies, how do you see the future of this relationship? >>Yeah, look, I think, I think the, um, at the core we do what we do and we're focused on continuing to innovate and do it with excellence in everything that we do. Um, we measure ourselves rigorously against a net promoter score. It's a certified net promoter score. We're at 85.2 top 1% of all B2B. So >>Head of V even >>At the core, >>Barely at the >>Core it's, it's about that customer experience and customer satisfaction. Um, and, and so that's a, maybe a, a different way of saying we trust that our partners do what they do with excellence. And in the case of Veeam, you know, partnering around the data protection, use case and workload, looking at how that's evolving into holistic data management and hybrid cloud environment. Um, we see rich opportunity for us to continue the partnerships, strengthen it, learn and listen from our customers and our partners. And, uh, and maybe challenge ourselves to, to do some things a little differently uniquely along the way I talked >>To them. Oh, good. >>Yeah, no, yeah. You, you mentioned, uh, you mentioned something at the outset that lends a lot of cred, credibility to the pure story anywhere you seek to play. Um, you mentioned that he, uh, you know, founded in 2009 product shipping in 2012. Um, I remember that Dave's not old enough to remember that period of time <laugh>, but, uh, if you remember, um, violent memory was the king, they, they were, they were the ones to be. Yep. And you guys were quietly toiling in a bit of obscurity and people were asking, well, come on, come on, come on, come on, give us something, but you didn't until you were ready. So I've seen that methodical approach in every, in every step of the way as you've transformed from being a product into solution focus and partnership focus. Um, so what does that look like? Moving forward? You, you mentioned kind of getting ahead of the game in terms of all backups and recovery, uh, volumes being on flash. What does that addressable market look like to you guys in the future? How, how are you looking at that? Yeah. Is this just the beginning of a new thing that's gonna develop over time? >>Yeah, I think, I think it's a, is a great question. It's an insightful question. It's also a great way for me to plug accelerate in, in 20, you know, 20 days or so. Um, it's a great backdrop for pure to make some announcements in terms of what's next and, and, you know, and when we're ready to make them, you know, it's a good example. Um, but, but in direct answer to your question, you know, without a doubt, you know, the adjacencies between data protection, primary storage, secondary storage, the blurring that's happening within that, you know, based on the ransomware threats, based on, you know, other environments around cloud and, and how customers have learned from cloud experiences early on and applying those learnings, not just to demanding simplicity in their solutions, but demanding the ability for, you know, kind of the storage is code and, and to have that cloud operating model across everything that they do. And so, you know, I think those are at the core, some of the things that we think about in terms of what's next and, and, uh, and to do it with partners like beam at the forefront, as well as the voice of our customer at >>The forefront. And that's why I wanted to ask you that's great setup. Thank you, David. Um, so the port works acquisition was really interesting. We're at, um, in Valencia Spain, the cube is, uh, our, our colleagues are over there. Unfortunately, John furier couldn't make the trip, the vid hit him. Uh, but one of the conversations, the topic of conversations over there is, you know, shift left with the solar winds, hack the sensitivity around the software supply chain. We certainly talked about it last week at red hat summit. I haven't heard a lot about DevOps here, but it's sort of intrinsic that, that whole shift left component, that idea of not bolting on data protection at the tail end, actually shifting left means doing it in the development cycle, not throwing it over the fence, you know, to, to the operations people. What's that conversation like subsequent to the port works acquisition, which was very interesting. A small lever can go a long way. Can you give us the update there? >>Yeah. And first and foremost, I hope John's okay. Right? >>He is. He's doing well. Good, Mr. John, >>We do. And so, you know, I think the, um, the, the future of applications is really on center stage when you put port works into the conversation mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so as companies move like no, one's gonna develop applications today without a container strategy right related to that. And that's gonna allow for the applications to move and data gravity to really play a bigger role and pure feels confident in our ability to play a big role in that. And as those applications mature up the containerized curve, they're definitely gonna have data protection, data management, other fundamental things built into it in that shift left context that we're gonna be prepared to take advantage of based on the assets. We have >>The two hardcore engineering cultures, uh, that, that have momentum, uh, pure and, and Veeam. Michael. It's great to see you again. Thanks so much for coming to the cube. >>Uh, it's always a pleasure to be with you gentlemen, and, uh, great to meet you for the first time. Good to meet you, Michael. Look forward to seeing you the next time and, and thanks again. >>All right. You bet. All right, keep it right there, everybody. Thanks for watching. This is the Cube's coverage of vem on 2022. We're at the area in Las Vegas, and we'll be right back right after the short break.

>> Announcer: theCUBE presents On the Ground. (light electronic music) >> Hello everyone, welcome to this special exclusive On the Ground Cube coverage here at Oracle's Headquarters. I'm John Furier the host of theCUBE, I'm here with my guest, Brad Tewksbury, who's the Senior Director of Business Development for the big data team at Oracle, welcome to On the Ground. >> Thank you, John, good to be here. >> So big day, Brad, you've been in this industry for a long time, you've seen the waves come and go. Certainly at Oracle you've been here for many, many years. >> Yeah. >> Oracle's transforming as as a company and you've been watching it play out. >> Brad: Yeah. >> What is the big thing that's most notable to you that you could illustrate that kind of highlights the Oracle transformation in terms of where it's come from? Obviously the database is the crown jewel, but this big data stuff that you're involved in is really transformative and getting tons of traction. With the Cloud Machine kind of tying in, is this kind of a similar moment for Oracle? Share some thoughts there. >> Yeah I think there's many, if you look at the data management path from going back to client server to where we are today, data has always played a pivotal role, but I would say now every customer is going through this decision making process where they're saying, "Ah-ha data I'm being disrupted by all different companies." Before it was you know, okay I got my data in a database and I do some reporting on it and I can run my business, but it wasn't like I was going to be disrupted by some digital company tomorrow. >> Cause the apps and the databases were kind of tied together. >> They were tied together and things just didn't move as fast as they do today. Now it's in these digital-only companies, they realize that data is their business, right? I think one of the pivotal things that we've been doing some studies with MIT is that 84% of the SMP value of some of these companies comes from companies that have no assets, right? Just data, so like UBER doesn't own any taxis. Airbnb doesn't own any hotels, yet they've got massive valuation, so companies are starting to freak out a little bit and they're starting to say, "Oh my god, I got to leverage my data." So the seminal moment here is saying, "How do I monetize my data?" Before it wasn't this urgency, now there's a sense of like I got to do something with this data, but the predicament they're in is, especially these legacy companies is they've got silos of stuff that's not talking to each other, it's all on different versions and different vendors. >> Well, Oracle's always been in the database business, so you made money by creating software to store data. >> Brad: Right. >> Now it sounds like there's a business model for moving the data around, is that kind of what I'm getting here? So it's not just storing the data software, store the data, it's software to make the data. >> Brad: Yeah. >> Accessible. Yeah, it's three things, I think it's three things. It's ingesting the data, right, from new sources outside of the company, so sensors and social media, right that's one thing. Secondly, it's then managing the data, which we've always done, and then the third thing is analyzing it, so it's that whole continuation and then what's happened here is the management platform is expanded. It's gone from just a relational base to this whole SEQUEL world and this Hadoop world, which we completely support. By no means is this relational a zero-sum game, where it's relational or nothing at all, it's we've expanded the whole data management platform to meet the criteria of whatever the application is and so these are the three data management platforms today, who knows what's going to come tomorrow, we'll support that as well, but the idea is choose the right platform for the application and what's really becoming about is applications, right? And this data management stuff is obviously table stakes, but how do I make my applications dynamic and real-time based on what I have here? >> Four years ago, and CUBE audience will remember, we did theCUBE in Hadoop World, that's called back then before it became Strata Hadoop and O'Reilly and Cloudera Show, but Mike Olson and Ping Lee said, "Oh we have a big data fund," so they thought there was going to be a tsunami of apps, never really happened. Certainly Hadoop didn't become as big as people had thought, but yet Analytics rose up, Analytics became the killer app. >> Brad: Yeah. >> But now we're beyond Analytics. >> Brad: Yeah. >> The use of data for insights, where are the apps coming from now? You had Rocana, here we had Win Disk Scope providing some solutions, where do you guys see the apps coming from? Obviously Oracle has their own set of apps, but outside of Oracle, where are the apps? >> So yeah, it's an interesting phenomena, right? Everyone thought Hadoop is the next great wave and the reality is if you go talk to customers and they're like, "Yeah, I've heard of it, but what do I do with it?" So it's like apps are like what's going to drive this whole stack forward and to that end, the number one thing that people are looking for is 360 view of customers, they all want to know more about customer. I was talking with a customer who represents the equivalent of the Tax Bureau of their county and instead of putting the customer, it's the taxpayer or the customer's at the center and all the different places that you pay taxes, so they want to have one view of you as the taxpayer, so whether you're public entity, private, the number one thing that the apps that people are looking for is show me more about customer. If I'm a bank, a retail, they want to cross-sell that's the number one app. In telcos, they want to know about networking. How do I get this network? I want to understand what's going on here so I can better support my Support Center, but secondary to that we're in this kind of holding pattern. Now what are the next set of apps and so there's a bunch of start-ups here in Silicon Valley that are thinking they have the answer for that and we're partnering with them and opening up a Cloud Marketplace to bring them in and we'll let customers decide who's going to win this. >> Talk about Rocana and their value proposition, they're here talking to us today, what's the deal with Rocana? >> So Rocana is an interesting play, what they have found is that customers, one of the ways they talk about themselves, is they offer a data warehouse to IT. So if I'm the IT guy, I want to go in and have basically a pool of all kinds of log analysis. How's my apps running, do I need to tune the apps? How's the network running, they want a one bucket of how can my operation perform better? So what we've seen from customers is they've come to us and they've said, "okay, what have you got in this new space "of Hadoop that can do that?" Look at log analysis and all kinds of app performances from a Hadoop perspective. They were one of the people, the first persons to answer that, so they're having great success finding out where security breaches are, finding out where network latencies are, better like I said, looking at logs and how things co6uld run better, so that's what they're answering for customers is basically improving IT functions, right, because what's happening is a lot of business people are in charge, right, and they're saying, "I no longer want "to go to IT for everything, I want to be able to just go to basically a data model and do my own analysis of this, "I don't want to have to call IT for everything." So these guys in some way are trying to help that manta. >> Talk about Win Disk Scope, what are they talking about here and how is their relationship with Oracle? They're speaking w6ith us today as well. >> Yeah, so you know, in this big data world what we're seeing a lot of is customers doing a lot of what we call a lab experiment. So they got all this data and they want to do lab experiments, okay great. So then they find this nugget of okay, here's a great data model, we want to do some analysis on this, so let's turn it into a production app. Okay, then what do you do, how do you take it to production? These are the guys that you would call. So they take it into an HA high-availability environment for you and they give you zero data loss, zero down time to do that. One of the things that Oracle's, we're touting is the differentiator in our Cloud is this hybrid approach where you have, you know, you could start out doing test-dev in the Cloud, bring it back on Primm, vice versa, they allow you to do that sync, that link between the Cloud and on Primm. We work today with Cloud Air, we OEM them in our big data appliance, if the customer has Hortonworks, but they also want to work with our stuff, their go-between with that as well. So it's basically they're giving you that production-ready environment that you need in an HA world. >> Brad, thanks for spending some time with us here On the Ground, really appreciate it. >> Yeah. >> I'm John Furier, we're here exclusively On the Ground here at Oracle Headquarters, thanks for watching. (light electronic music)