>>que presents on the ground. Wait. >>Hi. I'm Lisa Martin with the Cube, and we're on the ground at the Computer History Museum in Silicon Valley with the Association for Corporate Earth or a CG. Tonight is a CG 12th annual Growth Awards, and we're very fortunate to be joined by one of the longest sponsors of a CG Deloitte Gary Herbert from Delight. Welcome to the Cube. >>Thank you so much. >>So not only is a long time sponsor base did you get through the second biggest with the presumably a lot of options that Dylan has a sponsor and engage in communities like that. What next? A CG unique and warrant Deloitte sponsorship and active participation >>Delights been involved with a CG for over 10 years. And the reason is they collect a great group of senior leaders in Silicon Valley to talk about things that are really important. And a lot of great networks air here and make great things happen in the community. >>Excellent. And you can hear and feel the buzz of the innovation and the history of veterans in the room. We're here tonight to honor men who won the 2016 outstanding growth award, as well as Ambarella, who won the 2016 Emerging Growth Award in terms of the metrics used to select the winners, can you give us a little insight into what those metrics are and what this metrics and key criteria really mean for these types of award winners? >>One of the key metrics that we look at his revenue growth and Fitbit has had an incredible run over the last five years. But what's particularly amazing about Fitbit is they've been doing it very profitably, so it's really been a great testament to that. You can grow and grow in a profitable matter. >>And as we look at the next 2 to 3 years, in your perspective, what are some of the market drivers that you're going to see really influencing the fifth Mrs Your predictions there expect >>Fitbits and continue to be very successful. They've really done a great job from an execution perspective. They got great products and they define their brand. It's not just a just a tracker of steps. It is really a wellness brand. And that's why I think they're gonna continue to be successful. >>Same question for Amarillo in terms of emerging growth where some of the market drivers over the next two years, Amarilla will face. What are your >>predictions for them with Amber? I mean, since they're in the chip business, they they place themselves or have been very successful with getting successful with successful products, and that'll help their continued growth as well. Excellent. And >>what that said, Tell us what's next for Deloitte. >>Deloitte and we're diversified. Professional service is firm. I mean, people think of Deloitte as part of the Big Four, which is people think of audit Tax, I think people don't know is we're also actually were a consulting firm and an advisory firm. In fact, that makes up more than half of our revenues here. Look excellent. >>As we look forward to the future, we know tonight think that an emerald are in some great company with past winners. Lengthen Trulia Gopro What? Your predictions >>for the next class of candidates for 2017 grow awards. That's what's really exciting about this is you don't know who's successful. Companies are. If you told me three years ago is gonna be here today, I wouldn't have necessarily thought that. Um So what's exciting about this is you get to see what is next and who's who's being successful. And it really gets to celebrate the growth of those companies. Absolutely great closing to celebrate, not just the growth of these companies tonight fit, but an amber alert that we're here to celebrate, but >>also all of the >>leadership and expertise and sponsorship that we have here in Silicon Valley. Garrett, thank you so much for taking time to join us. It was a pleasure having you on the Cube. Thank you so much, Lisa. And with that said, Thank you for watching the Cube. I'm your host, Lisa Martin, and we'll see you next time.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of workplace next made possible by Hewlett Packard Enterprise. >>Thanks very much. Welcome back to the Cube. 3 65. Coverage of workplace next HP. I'm your host, Rebecca. Night. There was some great discussion there in the past panel, and we now are coming to you for some reaction. We have a panel of three people. Harold Senate in Miami. He is the prominent workplace futurist and influencer. Thanks so much for joining us, Harold. >>My pleasure. My pleasure. Way having me, >>we have Herbert loaning Ger. He is a digital workplace expert. And currently see Iot of University of Salzburg. Thanks so much for coming on the show. >>Thank you very much for the invitation. >>And last but not least, Chip McCullough. He is the executive director of partner Ecosystems and one hey is coming to us from Tampa, Florida. >>Thank you, Rebecca. Great to be here. >>Right. Well, I'm really looking forward to this. We're talking today about the future of work and co vid. The pandemic has certainly transformed so much about the way we live and the way we were is changed the way we communicate the way we collaborate, the way we accomplish what we want to accomplish. I want to start with you. Harold, can you give us, um, broad brush thoughts about how this pandemic has changed the future of >>work? Well, this is quite interesting because we were talking about the future of work as something that was going to come in the future. But the future waas very, very long, far away from where we are right now. Now, suddenly, we brought the future of work to our current reality covered, transformed or accelerated the digital transformation that was already happening. So digital transformation was something that we were pushing somehow or influencing a lot because it's a need because everything is common digital. All our life has transformed because of the digital implementation, off new technologies in all areas. But for companies, what was quite interesting is the fact that they were looking for or thinking about when toe implement or starting implementing nuisance in terms of technology. On suddenly the decision Waas, where now we are in this emergency emergency mode that the Covic that the pandemic created in our organizations on this prompted and push a lot of this decision that we were thinking maybe in the future to start doing to put it right now. But this gay also brought a lot of issues in terms off how we deal with customers. Because this is continuity is our priority. How we deal with employees, how we make sure that employees, customers on we and the management this in relation are all connected in the street and work together to provide our president services to our customers. >>So you're talking about Kobe is really a forcing mechanism that has has really accelerated the digital transformation that so many companies in the U. S. And also around the world. Um, we heard from the previous panel that there was this Yes. We can attitude this idea that we can make this happen, um, things that were ordinarily maybe too challenging or something that we push a little bit further down the road. Do you think that that is how pervasive is that attitude and is that yes, we can. And yes, we have Thio. >>Absolutely, absolutely. You know, here in Miami, in Florida, we are used to have the hurricanes. When we have a hurricane is something that Everybody gets an alarm mode emergency mode and everybody started running. But we think or we work on business continuity implementing the product culture policies. But at the same time we think, Okay, people before a couple of which no more than that. Now, when we have those situations we have really see, we really see this positive attitude. Everybody wants to work together. Everybody wants to push to make things happen. Everybody works in a very collaborative mode. Everybody really wants to team and bring ideas and bring the energy that is necessary so we can make it happen. So I would say that now that is something that the pandemic product to the new situation where we don't know how long this mist ake this will take maybe a couple of months more, maybe a year. Maybe more than that, we still don't know. But we really know is that digital transformation on the future of work that we were thinking was going to be on the wrong way Now is something that we're not going back with this >>chip. I want to bring you in here. We're hearing that the future of work is now and this shift toward the new normal. I want to hear you talk a little bit about what you're seeing in terms of increased agility and adaptability and flexibility. How is that playing out, particularly with regard to technology? >>Yeah, I think the the yes, we can attitude. We see that all over the place and many instances it's like heroic efforts. And we heard that from the panel, right? Literally heroic efforts happening and people are doing that. It reminds me of an example with the UK National Health System, where we rolled out 1.2 million teams, Microsoft teams users in seven days. I mean, those are the kinds of things we're seeing all over the place, and and now that yes, we can approach is kind of sinking in. And I think Harold was kind of talking about that, right? It's sinking in tow, how we're looking at technology every day. We're seeing things like, you know, the the acceleration of the move to cloud, for example, a substantial acceleration to the movement, the cloud, a substantial acceleration to be more agile, and we're just seeing that kind of in in all of our work now and and That's the focus for organizations they want to know now. How do we capture this amazing innovation that happened as a result of this event and take it forward in their organizations going forward? >>And so they're thinking about how they captured this. But Herbert, at this time of tremendous uncertainty and at a time when the economic recovery, the global economic recovery, is stop and start, how are you thinking about prioritizing? What kinds of criteria are you using and how are you evaluating what needs to happen? >>I think that's very simple, and I use my standard procedure here in the most e think it must be possible for the users and therefore, for the companies to work and be productive. That's that's, I think, the most important thing technology should be provided the best possible support here, for example, of the state off the our digital workplace. But in this uncertain times, we have some new demands At the moment. That means we have new priorities, for example, conducting teamwork ships online. Normally, we have conducted such events in special conference rooms or in a hotel for the will of the world, for example, we now have the requirement create all off our workshops and also the documentation off it we had to Allah instead of using, for example, physical pain, port to group topics and so on. So we saw here a change that larger events to We need the factions for breakout rooms and so on. And honestly, at the moment, big events in the with the world will not Still the same leg in a physical world, for example Ah, big conferences, technology conferences and so on. >>No, Absolutely. And what you're describing is this this hybrid world in which some people are going into offices and and others of us are not, And we are we're doing what we need to dio in in digital formats. I wanna ask you chip about this hybrid workplace. This appears to be this construct that we're seeing more and more in the marketplace. We heard Gen. Brent of HP talking about this in the previous panel. How do you see this playing out in the next 12 to 24 months and beyond, even in our pandemic and and post pandemic lives? And what do you see as the primary advantages and drawbacks of having this hybrid workforce. >>Well, I I think it's very interesting, right? And I think it s century. We were very lucky because we are 500,000 employees that have been fully, you know, kind of hybrid work or remote enabled, even going into the pandemic. And many other companies and organizations did not have that in place, right? The key to me is you had this protective environment will call the office right where everybody went in tow work to they had their technology there. The security was in place around that office, and everything was kind of focused on that office and all sudden, that office, it didn't disappear, but it became distributed. And the key behind we are a big user of Aruba Technologies within Accenture. And it became very important, in my view, to be able to take >>ah, >>lot of the concepts that you brought into the office and distributed it out. So we're we have offerings where we're using technologies such as Aruba's remote access points in virtual desktop technologies, right that enable us to take all the rules >>and >>capability and functionality and security that you had in that nice controlled office environment and roll it out, thio the workers wherever they may be sitting now, whether it be at home, whether it be sitting on the road someplace, um, traveling whatever. And that's really important. And I did see a couple instances with organizations where they had security incidents because of the way they rolled out that office of the future. So it's really important as we go forward that not only do we look at the enablement, but we also make sure we're securing that to our principles and standards going >>forward. >>So the principles and standards I wanna I wanna talk to you a little bit about that. Harold. There are the security elements that we that we just heard about. But there's also the culture, the workplace culture, the mission, the values of the organization when employees air not co located. When we are talking about distributed teams, how do you make sure that those values are are consistent throughout the organization and that employees do feel that they are part of something bigger, even if they're not in the cubicle next door or just in the hallway? >>That that is a great question, because here what happens now is that we still need to find a balance in the way we work. Maybe some company says we need to fool the day with busier conferences so we can see each other so we can make sure what we're doing and we're connected. But also we need to get some balance because we need to make sure that we have time to do the job. Everybody needs to do their job but also need to communicate to each other on communication, in the whole group, in a video in several video conferences in the day. Maybe it's not enough or not with effective for that communication. So we need to find the right balance because we have a lot of tools, a lot of technology that can help us on by helping us in this moment to make sure that we are sharing our values, values that common set off values that makes or defines on how organizations need to be present in every interaction that we have with our employees on. We need to also make sure that we're taking care off the needs off employees because when we see from a former employee standpoint, what is going on we need to understand the context that we're working today instead of working on at the office. We're working from home at home. Always. We have also we have our partners wife, Children also that are in the same place. We're also connected with work or with distance learning so that there is a new environment, the home environment, that from a company perspective, also needs to be taken into consideration now how we share our values well, it's a time something that we need to understand. Also, that we all always try to understand is that every crisis bring on opportunity together. So we should see. This also is an opportunity toe. Refocus our strategies on culture not to emerge stronger on to put everybody with the yes attitude with really desire to make things happen every day in this time in this same symphony. Oh, but how we do that also, it's an opportunity for delivering training. Delivery is an opportunity to make sure that we identify those skills that are needed for the future of work in the digitals, because we have a lot of digital training that is needed on those skills that are not exactly a tech, but they are needed also, from the human perspective to make sure that we are creating a strong culture that even working in a hybrid or or remote work, we can be strong enough in the market. >>So I wanna let everyone here have the last word in picking up on on that last point that this is an exceedingly complex time for everyone, Unprecedented. There's so much uncertainty. What is your best advice for leaders as they navigate their employees through this hybrid remote work environment? Um, I want to start with you, Herbert. >>From my opinion, I think communication is very important. So communicate with your team and your employees much more than in the past and toe and be clear in your statements and in your answers. I think it's very important for the team >>chip. Best advice. >>So you know, it feels like we've jumped maybe two years ahead and innovation, and I think you know, from a non organization standpoint, except that, you know, embrace it, capture it. But then also at the same time, make sure you're applying your principles of security and those pieces to it, so do it in the right way, but embrace the change that's that's happened, >>Harold. Last last. Best advice for for managers during this time >>he communication are absolutely essential. Now let's look for new way of communicating that it's not only sending emails is not only sending text messages, we need to find ways to connect to each other in this remote working environment on may be coming again. Toe pick up the phone on, Have a chat conversation with our employees are working remotely. But doing that with kind off frequently, I would say that would be very effective toe. Improve the communication on to create this environment where everybody feels part off an organization >>everyone feels part of the team. Well, thank you so much. All of you. To Harold, Herbert and Chip. I really appreciate a great conversation here. >>My pleasure. My pleasure. Very much. >>They tuned for more of the Cube 3 65 coverage of HPV workplace Next

>> From the Hard Rock Hotel in Las Vegas, it's theCUBE covering HoshoCon 2018. Brought to you by Hosho. >> Okay, welcome back everyone. It's theCUBE live coverage here in Las Vegas for the first annual blockchain security conference. The brightest minds in the industry coming together, it's called HoshoCon, and it's presented by, and sponsored by Hosho. But it's not their event, it's an industry event. And we're here with the co-founder and president, Hartej Sawhney, who is theCUBE alumni. Great to see you. You guys are doing a great event. Thanks for coming on. >> Yeah, it's always good to see you, and I'm so glad theCUBE is here at HoshoCon. >> So you've talked with us many times, but recently in Toronto about this event. This is not your company's event. You guys are putting it together. You're holding it because there's no other conferences that do this, but it's not just you guys. You guys are bringing the industry brains together. >> Yeah, I mean, we see ourselves as being on the intersection of cybersecurity and blockchain. And (coughs) just getting over a cold, but not a lot of conferences are out there that have a open discussion about cyber security in the blockchain industry. And hundreds of millions of dollars are stolen from exchanges. And 10% of all the money in the ICO space has been lost or stolen. And there's simply not enough platforms for this to be discussed. So, we figured we'd start the first conference that solely focuses on being a blockchain security conference. We chose not to have any ICO pitch competition. And it feels like there's more and more typical blockchain conferences out there, but it's important to be home base for anyone who wants to affiliate themselves with cyber security and the blockchain industry. >> And the depth and breadth of security is changing. We are hearing talks with, unfortunately I won't be able to attend the sessions, we're interviewing people all day, but amazing talks. How to hack an exchange, all these new surface areas. I mean, people kind of generally know they're unsecure, but this growth going on. There's new things happening. This is exposing some of the security vulnerabilities. What is the hot topics in the talk tracks here at HoshoCon? >> We have Anand Prakash, who runs a company called AppSecure. He's one of the worlds best white hat hackers. Who has hacked into the likes of Linkedin, Facebook, Google, all the top names. And to have someone walk us through today, Anand Prakash said, "Here's how you hack into a crypto "currency exchange and here's how they actually did it." And to have a white hat hacker walk us through that, it opens up our eye balls as to how easy it actually was for a Japanese exchange to loose 500 million dollars. That's no small sum of money. And this industry is only going to survive if we together as a community come together and evaluate how was it that 500 million dollars got stolen? And how can we as a community of global lovers of bitcoin make sure that this does not happen moving forward? >> On that exchange hack, 500 million dollars in Japan, was that white hat done or was that black hat? >> It was black hat. Unfortunately the money's not been given back. >> So it's not given back. So that's a half a billion dollars? >> It's half a billion dollars stolen, yeah you know. How many industries are worth just about that much? >> Yes, you could feed a couple countries. This is legit, right? Obviously it's like total, you know, wild west if you want to call it. Stage coach robberies they got the mask on. No one knows who it is. This is real, this is absolutely real. What are you guys doing as an industry? What's happening here to prevent this? What are the key, you know hygiene or social, anti-social engineering? What are the key things that are going on that are solving this problem? >> So, every exchange needs to value security and get a penetration test. Every company needs to make sure that somebody at their company is in charge of their in house security practices. Most companies when you ask them, "Who's in charge of security?" They point their finger at the CTO. The CTO is in charge of architecting the software. You need to have somebody full time, in house taking care of the security. Ideally a CISO and if you can afford it, pay someone five to ten thousand dollars a month as a consultant to come in for a couple of months and take care of your in house security. These are basic things that, you know, surprisingly most bitcoin exchanges often times when they're hacked, they're hacked by a basic phishing attack. That one of your employees opened up the wrong email. They opened up a PDF and the hacker gained access to your computer and is now monitoring your keyboard strokes and stole millions of dollars. Or the exchange didn't get an actual penetration test of their exchange. Or exchanges are listing contracts that have not gone through a professional smart contract audit. These things are now, also we're seeing them service in regulation with central governments. And it seems that all the smaller island nations are spearheading the way in terms of writing clarity on regulation. In Malta, Bermuda, Gibraltar, all of them are trying to spearhead the way. I'm much more excited, to be honest, about some of the larger nations bringing clarity on regulation in the next two to three years. We all can't just move to a small island off the coast of Italy that is infamous for actually laundering money in the gaming space. Yes, now they're trying to bring clean clarity doing KYC and AML in Malta and write a actual regulation about security. And if you're domiciled in Malta and you're a exchange then you can only list a token that's been audited. It's wonderful but at the end of the day Malta is also a part of the EU and if the EU changes their mind, things can change Malta. I just feel like it shows the immaturity of the space. If very legitimate companies are all going to flee to small countries like Malta or to islands like Bermuda. Good on those island nations for being so pragmatic and forward thinking and for bringing legal clarity. I mean if I was in an exchange today, arguably yes you have to go to Malta if you want clarity on regulation and you don't want to be in the United States. Right now, Malta is your choice. I'm just personally a little bit much more excited about the next three years where, I make a joke to my co-founder and I say, "The suits are coming." That we look around these conferences and you don't see that many suits but the fortunate 500, many of them are either writing private blockchains, they're evaluating how they're going to leverage blockchain technology in their major businesses and they're going to leverage decentralized applications and tokenization for already running products that have millions of customers, that are already profitable and then when they get tokenized they're going to be up and running right away. So the next two to three years are going to be very interesting. From Hosho's perspective we've taken a big turn towards catering towards more publicly traded large sophisticated companies. We've partnered up with Telefonica. Telefonica is a Fortune 200 company. Its wonderful to be able to leverage that kind of a brand. To deal with major world wide entities that are publicly traded come to Telefonica and evaluate how they can leverage blockchain technology and get one bundled security package that includes Hosho, Rivets, and Telefonica. >> Yeah the Rivets solution is interesting. It's a hardware based solution. So the subscriber of the phone becomes the entity. It's really interesting and I think this points to new paradigms of security, which I want to get to in a second but I want to just unpack what you said about the small country, big country dynamic. Great for the small countries to be opportunistic. To be creative and capture this opportunity. But people want stability. They want clarity on regulations, yes, but also standards, technical standards. >> We can't all just move to the small country of Malta. >> Yeah I'll be in a plane the whole time. >> It just doesn't work. >> Yeah and by the way the game changes too. Whats the implications of say, Malta decides one day, "You know what?" "We're getting out, we're changing things." A company would have to move their domicile again. So it's a moving train, you don't know what you're going to get. It might be stable now but it's not a scalable opportunity. >> Yeah, people have families and they want to stay where they are. Simple as that. We have large countries that have a strong crypto community that's growing and let's see how they pan out. Singapore seems like a likely next candidate. You have Korea. I would argue to say that the worlds first decentralized application that will be massively adopted will be in Korea. Korea is going to be the place where we have the worlds first decentralized application launched with mass adoption, a paradigm shift. The kind of shift where you forgot what it was like before you used Gmail regularly. >> Yeah, total, total infrastructure change. Alright so I got to ask you the hallway conversation question. Obviously you're very popular here. It's you event, you're sponsoring with the community. I see you talking to a lot of people at the VIP dinner last night. What are some of the hallway conversations that you're having? A lot of interesting people here from diverse backgrounds, in security, technology, some policy, some regulatory, some business, and legal, but really bright minds. What's the hallway conversation like? What are you talking about? >> We're talking about how all of us are going to survive crypto winter that we just entered. We've entered a time where fund raising has become extremely difficult. A lot of funds are simply bleeding. They lost a lot of money and they're not cutting checks right now. So the companies that are going to survive and stick around through this crypto winter, they're making a strong statement and they're going to be the ones that are going to stick around. And a lot of them are here at this conference at HoshoCon. And it amazing to have discussions to see what are the problems that fellow founders are facing? Building companies that will survive this crypto winter. Another thing has been just what are we going to do as a community to self-regulate? Are we going to create self-regulatory organizations? Are we going to let another Moody's get created? What is our viewpoint on regulation in the space overall, right? We love Max Keiser. His viewpoint on regulation is very extreme where he believes bitcoin is a self-regulatory technology. And on the other hand we have people saying, "No, we need to quickly move to regulate the space. "Work with central banks, work with central governments, "and write out the regulations." That's been lot of the hallway conversation. And a lot of other ones that have been really intriguing to me has been people talking about what are things that they have done within their company to protect their employees. Because the reality is in the crypto currency space every single employee of a major company in this industry is a target by naturally being in this industry. And this includes you. We are all naturally targets. And it's not about how much bitcoin you have maybe its about how much bitcoin someone thinks you have. And all of a sudden you become a target. And we need to think about things like our physical security. So some of the more interesting conversations I've been having with people have been around, along the lines of what are you doing to protect you and your family in regards to your physical security? On top of that your online presences. >> So ransoms, people getting kidnapped and or extorted. These kinds of physical pressures? >> Yeah, like ShapeShift has a lot of great stories. Michael Perklin from, the CIS of ShapeShift is here. You should totally talk to him and get him on theCUBE. Michael Perklin has a long list of war stories that ShapeShift has been through. Some of them they went through before he was actually hired as a CISO. And ShapeShift would've also not been hacked of millions of dollars if they had brought on a CISO earlier such as Michael Perklin. I believe they had hired him as a consultant. Did not renew the contract, got hacked, and brought him on as CISO. And he was like, "If you had continued working with me "I would of, this would of been avoided." And that's really-- >> It's foolish. >> One other thing I've seen with ShapeShift actually is online you'll notice that all the employees of ShapeShift, their last names are not online. So on the website it says, their chief marketing officers name is Emily, it says "Emily Shape Shift". And their badges at conferences also says "Emily Shape Shift". These are interesting things to learn from other companies that this is what you're doing to protect your employees from them being hacked. It's very interesting for us to all exchange notes-- >> Shoot I'm out there, (mumbles) everywhere pretty much online. >> Well I'm out there as well. We just got to protect ourselves and we got to think about things like our physical security. People feel uncomfortable thinking about their physical security. They think that, "Oh no we're in America, "we'll just call the cops." What about when we travel? What about when you and I are in a village in Thailand hanging out? We are microorganisms and when microorganisms are hungry they'll do what ever it takes to eat. So if they smell abundance, you and I are in trouble. >> Yeah, we got to be careful. And this is something that you really got to worry about because there's been tons of war stories. Now ultimately when you get back down to the wallet, it's one of the things we've been talking a lot this morning on, with Rivets, was on about the notion of how hard it is for mainstream to use tokens. Where's my private key? This has always been the crypto problem, even with private key encryption. >> Yeah, or should we build a multi-sig wallet to store your tokens in a secure manner? People have been asking us for a long time, Crypto funds, ICO's, "How do we store our tokens!" And our problem was that A, we've either hacked into the other wallets that are available and we saw that they're insecure or the UI and UX completely sucks. So we said lets build our own and so we built our own. >> Are you open sourcing that, is that-- >> No, we're going to be, this is going to be a unique multi-sig wallet that we release, it's not. You're open sourcing the actual code of the wallet or else it's not going to be considered legitimate. >> Yeah, it's good, it's a goldmine. >> It's a profitable venture. >> And that's going to be 100% bullet proof? >> It's going to be very secure. >> Let's talk about Meadow Suite. >> So, we came to a point where our engineers needed better tooling to find security vulnerabilities in smart contracts. And what is available, Truffle, is weak and slow. And so we built Meadow Suite. We built in a long list of tools and a full suite of tooling that we believe are going to be used by a long list of people that are building on the Ethereum blockchain. Including a lot of our competitors. And so we've open sourced it and we're excited for people to check out Meadow Suite. It's on GitHub and our engineers have put a lot of time and effort into it. We even have our own logo for it. >> And the goal is to automate things, make it easier? What's the main, main initial goals? >> I would say, long story short, is to find security vulnerabilities in smart contracts and to build tooling around that. And to effectively build and find vulnerabilities in smart contracts. >> So they build it into their development process natively? >> Correct. >> Alright Hartej great to have you on and hey congratulations for putting on this event. I know we've talked about >> Awesome to be here. it in the past, it actually happened. It's the first inaugural one. >> We had this vision and I'm glad it came through. We had a great global events team. Gabriel Shepherd, and Ryan Shewchuk, and Brad Horspool, and Michelle Yon. And like they've put on conference's the size of Southwest by Southwest. And our vision is, look we're not in the events business. And we're a cyber security business at the end of the day. But we found it necessary that there has to be a conference where there's a platform for people to talk about cyber security intersecting with the blockchain industry. There's got to be a platform for someone to get on stage and say, "Hey here's lessons that "we learned from getting hacked" And if this industry is going to survive, this topic needs to survive. And the brands that want to affiliate themselves with blockchain security and that want to be apart of the discussion. This will be a go to conference every single year. We're going to keep doing it and I look forward to having you at every single one, coming. >> It's been great. And you know what's key is having reputable people working together in a community, building an open community, sharing data, sharing best practices, and having candid conversations. >> Yep, it's the only way to get someone as epic as Andreas Antonopoulos to your conference. I mean my co-founder and I have been looking up to Andreas for so long. Watching videos of Andreas. Watching videos of Max Keiser, Stacy Herbert. To have them here is really just truly remarkable and I'm grateful, I'm honored, I'm touched. I'm touched to have you here. I miss David Vellante, I wish he was here. >> He's in San Francisco, he says hi. He was going to fly in tonight but-- >> He texted me. >> He did, okay. >> Hartej it's great to see you. >> Great to see you >> Congratulations. as well. thank you. >> Great event. Okay we're here live with theCUBe coverage for HoshoCon 2018, the first inaugural security conference on blockchain. Industry leaders coming together. The brilliant, bright minds of the industry working out the solutions, trying to pedal faster. Better security, check it out HoshoCon.com. I'm John Furrier stay with us for more coverage after this short break. (techno music)

>> Live, from Toronto Canada, it's the CUBE! Covering Blockchain Futurist Conference 2018. Brought to you by the CUBE. >> Hello everyone and welcome back. This is the CUBE's exclusive coverage here in Toronto for the Blockchain Futurist Conference, we're here all week. Yesterday we were at the Global Cloud and Blockchain Summit put on by DigitalBits and the community, here is the big show around thought leadership around the future of blockchain and where it's going. Certainly token economics is the hottest thing with blockchain, although the markets are down the market is not down when it comes to building things. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante, here with CUBE alumni and special guest Hartej Sawhney who is the founder of Hosho doing a lot of work on security space and they have a conference coming up that the CUBE will be broadcasting live at, HoshoCon this coming fall, it's in October I believe, welcome to the CUBE. >> Thank you so much for having me. >> Always great to see you man. >> What's the date of the event, real quick, what's the date on your event? >> It's October 9th to the 11th, Hard Rock Hotel & Casino, we rented out the entire property, we want everyone only to bump into the people that we're inviting and they're coming. And the focus is blockchain security. We attend over 130 conferences a year, and there's never enough conversation about blockchain security, so we figured, y'know, Defcon is still pure cybersecurity, Devcon from Ethereum is more for Ethereum developers only, and every other conference is more of a traditional blockchain conference with ICO pitch competitions. We figured we're not going to do that, and we're going to try to combine the worlds, a Defcon meets Devcon vibe, and have hackers welcome, have white hat hackers host a bug bounty, invite bright minds in the space like Max Keiser and Stacy Herbert, the founder of the Trezor wallet, RSA, y'know we've even invited everyone from our competitors to everyone in the media, to everyone that are leading the blockchain whole space. >> That's the way to run an event with community, congratulations. Mark your calendar we've got HoshoCon coming up in October. Hartej, I want to ask you, I know Dave wants to ask you your trip around the world kind of questions, but I want to get your take on something we're seeing emerging, and I know you've been talking about, I want to get your thoughts and reaction and vision on: we're starting to see the world, the losers go out of the market, and certainly prices are down on the coins, and the coins are a lot of tokens out there, >> Too many damn tokens! (laughing) >> The losers are the only ones who borrowed money to buy bitcoin. >> (laughs) Someone shorted bitcoin. >> That's it. >> But there's now an emphasis on builders and there's always been an entrepreneurial market here, alpha entrepreneurs are coming into the space you're starting to see engineers really building great stuff, there's an emphasis on builders, not just the quick hit ponies. >> Yep. >> So your thoughts on that trend. >> It's during the down-market that you can really focus on building real businesses that solve problems, that have some sort of foresight into how they're going to make real money with a product that's built and tested, and maybe even enterprise grade. And I also think that the future of fundraising is going to be security tokens, and we don't really have a viable security exchange available yet, but giving away actual equity in your business through a security token is something very exciting for sophisticated investors to participate in this future tokenized economy. >> But you're talking about real equity, not just percentage of coin. >> Yeah, y'know, actual equity in the business, but in the form of a security token. I think that's the future of fundraising to some extent. >> Is that a dual sort of vector, two vectors there, one is the value of the token itself and the equity that you get, right? >> Correct, I mean you're basically getting equity in the company, securitized in token form, and then maybe a platform like Securitize or Polymath, the security exchanges that are coming out, will list them. And so I think during the down-markets, when prices are down, again I said before the joke but it's also the truth: the only people losing in this market are the ones who borrowed to buy bitcoin. The people who believe in the technology remain to ignore the price more or less. And if you're focused on building a company this is the time to focus on building a real business. A lot of times in an up-market you think you see a business opportunity just because of the amount of money surely available to be thrown at any project, you can ICO just about any idea and get a couple a million dollars to work on it, not as easy during a down-market so you're starting to take a step back, and ask yourself questions like how do we hit $20,000 of monthly recurring revenue? And that shouldn't be such a crazy thing to ask. When you go to Silicon Valley, unless you're two-time exited, or went to Stanford, or you were an early employee at Facebook, you're not getting your first million dollar check for 15 or 20 percent of your business, even, until you make 20, 25K monthly recurring revenue. I say this on stage at a lot of my keynotes, and I feel like some people glaze their eyes over like, "obviously I know that", the majority are running an ICO where they are nowhere close to making 20K monthly recurring and when you say what's your project they go, "well, our latest traction is that we've closed about "1.5 million in our private pre-sale." That's not traction, you don't have a product built. You raised money. >> And that's a dotcom bubble dynamic where the milestone of fundraising was the traction and that really had nothing to do with building a viable business. And the benefit of blockchain is to do things differently, but achieve the same outcome, either more efficient or faster, in a new way, whether it's starting a company or achieving success. >> Yep, but at the same time, blockchain technology is relatively immature for some products to go, at least for the Fortune 500 today, for them to take a blockchain product out of R&D to the mainstream isn't going to happen right now. Right now the Fortune 500 is investing into blockchain tech but it's in R&D, and they're quickly training their employees to understand what is a smart contract?, who is Nick Szabo?, when did he come up with this word smart contracts? I was just privy to seeing some training information for multiple Fortune 500 companies training their employees on what are smart contracts. Stuff that we read four or five years ago from Nick Szabo's essays is now hitting what I would consider the mainstream, which is mid-level talent, VP-level talent at Fortune 500 companies, who know that this is the next wave. And so when we're thinking about fundraising it's the companies who raise enough money are going to be able to survive the storm, right? In this down-market, if you raised enough money in your ICO, for this vision that you have that's going to be revolutionary, a lot of times I read an ICO's white paper and all I can think is well I hope this happens, because if it does that's crazy. But the question is, did they raise enough money to survive? So that's kind of another reason why people are raising more money than they need. Do people need $100 million to do the project? I don't know. >> It's an arm's race. >> But they need to last 10 years to make this vision come true. >> Hey, so, I want to ask you about your whirlwind tour. And I want to ask in the context of something we've talked about before. You've mentioned on the CUBE that Solidity, very complex, there's a lot of bugs and a lot of security flaws as a result in some of the code. A lot of the code. You're seeing people now try to develop tooling to open up blockchain development to Java programmers, for example, which probably exacerbates the problem. So, in that context, what are you seeing around the world, what are you seeing in terms of the awareness of that problem, and how are you helping solve it? >> So, starting with Fortune 500 companies, they have floors on floors around the world full of Java engineers. Full Stack Engineers who, of course, know Java, they know C#, and they're prepared to build in this language. And so this is why I think IBM's Hyperledger went in that direction. This is why even some people have taken the Ethereum virtual machine and tried to completely rebuild it and rewrite it into functional programming languages like Clojure and Scala. Just so it's more accessible and you can do more with the functional programming language. Very few lines of code are equivalent to hundreds of lines of code in linear languages, and in functional programming languages things are concurrent and linear and you're able to build large-scale enterprise-grade solutions with very small lines of code. So I'm personally excited, I think, about seeing different types of blockchains cater more towards Fortune 500 companies being able to take advantage, right off the bat, of rooms full of Java engineers. The turn to teaching of Solidity, it's been difficult, at least from the cybersecurity perspective we're not looking for someone who's a software engineer who can teach themselves Solidity really fast. We're looking for a cybersecurity, QA-minded, quality-assurance mindset, someone who has an OPSEC mindset to learn Solidity and then audit code with the cybersecurity mindset. And we've found that to be easier than an engineer who knows Java to learn Solidity. Education is hard, we have a global shortage of qualified engineers in this space. >> So cybersecurity is a good cross-over bridge to Solidity. Skills matters. >> If you're in cybersecurity and you're a full sec engineer you can learn just about any language like anyone else. >> The key is to start at the core. >> The key is to have a QA mindset, to have the mindset of actually doing quality assurance, on code and finding vulnerabilities. >> Not as an afterthought, but as a fundamental component of the development process. >> I could be a good engineer and make an app like Angry Birds, upload it, and even before uploading it I'll get it audited by some third party professional, and once it's uploaded I can fix the bugs as we go and release another version. Most smart contracts that have money behind them are written to be irreversible. So if they get hacked, money gets stolen. >> Yeah, that's real. >> And so the mindset is shifting because of this space. >> Alright, so on your tour, paint a picture, what did you see? >> First of all, how many cities, how long? Give us the stats. >> I just did about 80 days and I hit 10 countries. Most of it was between Europe and Asia. I'll start with saying that, right now, there's a race amongst smaller nations, like Malta, Bermuda, Belarus, Panama, the island nations, where they're racing to say that "we have clarity on regulation when it comes to "the blockchain cryptocurrency industries," and this is a big deal, I'd say, mainly for cryptocurrency exchanges, that are fleeing and navigating global regulation. Like in India, Unocoin's bank has been shutdown by the RBI. And they're going up against the RBI and the central government of India because, as an exchange, their banks have been shut down. And they're being forced to navigate waters and unique waves around the world globally. You have people like the world's biggest exchange, at least by volume today is Binance. Binance has relocated 100 people to the island of Malta. For a small island nation that's still technically a part of the European Union, they've made significant progress on bringing clarity on what is legal and what is not, eventually they're saying they want to have a crypto-bank, they want to help you go from IPO to ICO from the Maltese stock exchange. Similarly also Gibraltar, and there's a law firm out there, Hassans, which is like the best law firm in Gibraltar, and they have really led the way on helping the regulators in Gibraltar bring clarity. Both Gibraltar and Malta, what's similar between them is they've been home to online gambling companies. So a lot of online casinos have been in both of their markets. >> They understand. >> They've been very innovative, in many different ways. And so even conversations with the regulators in both Malta and Gibraltar, you can hear their maturity, they understand what a smart contract is. They understand how important it is to have a smart contract audited. They already understand that every exchange in their jurisdiction has to go through regular penetration testing. That if this exchange changes its code that the code opens it up to vulnerabilities, and is the exchange going through penetration testing? So the smaller nations are moving fast. >> But they're operationalizing it faster, and it's the opportunity for them is the upside. >> My only fear is that they're still small nations, and maybe not what they want to hear but it's the truth. Operating in larger nations like the United States, Canada, Germany, even Japan, Korea, we need to see clarity in much larger nations and I think that's something that's exciting that's going to happen possibly after we have the blueprint laid out by places like Malta and Gibraltar and Bermuda. >> And what's the Wild West look like, or Wild East if you will in Asia, a lot of activity, it's a free-for-all, but there's so much energy both on the money-making side and on the capital formation side and the entrepreneurial side. Lay that out, what's that look like? >> By far the most exciting thing in Asia was Korea, Seoul, out of all the Asian tiger countries today, in August 2018, Seoul, Korea has a lot of blockchain action going on right now. It feels like you're in the future, there's actually physical buildings that say Blockchain Academy, and Blockchain Building and Bitcoin Labs, you feel like you're in 2028! (laughs) And today it's 2018. You have a lot of syndication going on, some of it illegal, it's illegal if you give a guarantee to the investor you're going to see some sort of return, as a guarantee. It's not illegal if you're putting together accredited investors who are willing to do KYC and AML and be interested in investing a couple of hundred ETH in a project. So, I would say today a lot of ICOs are flocking to Korea to do a quick fundraising round because a lot of successful syndication is happening there. Second to Korea, I would say, is a battle between Singapore and Hong Kong. They're both very interesting, It's the one place where you can find people who speak English, but also all four of the languages of the tiger nations: Japanese, Mandarin, Cantonese, Korean, all in one place in Hong Kong and Singapore. But Singapore, you still can't get a bank account as an ICO. So they're bringing clarity on regulation and saying you can come here and you can get a lawyer and you can incorporate, but an ICO still has trouble getting a bank account. Hong Kong is simply closer in proximity to China, and China has a lot of ICOs that cannot raise money from Chinese citizens. So they can raise from anybody that's not Chinese, and they don't even have a white paper, a website, or even anybody in-house that can speak English. So they're lacking English materials, English websites, and people in their company that can communicate with the rest of the world in other languages other than Mandarin or Cantonese. And that's a problem that can be solved and bridges need to be built. People are looking in China for people to build that bridge, there's a lot of action going on in Hong Kong for that reason since even though technically it's a part of China it's still not a part of China, it's a tricky gray line. >> Right, in Japan a lot going on but it's still, it's Japan, it's kind of insulated. >> The Japanese government hasn't provided clarity on regulation yet. Just like in India we're waiting for September 11th for some clarity on regulation, same way in Japan, I don't know the exact date but we don't have enough clarity on regulation. I'm seeing good projects pop up in Korea, we're even doing some audits for some projects out of Japan, but we see them at other conferences outside of Japan as well. Coming up in Singapore is consensus, I'm hoping that Singapore will turn into a better place for quality conferences, but I'm not seeing a lot of quality action out of Singapore itself. Y'know, who's based in Singapore? Lots of family funds, lots of new exchanges, lots of big crypto advisory funds have offices there, but core ICOs, there was still a higher number of them in Korea, even in Japan, even. I'm not sure about the comparison between Japan and Singapore, but there is definitely a lot more in Korea. >> What about Switzerland, do you have any visibility there? Did you visit Switzerland? >> I was Zug, I was in Crypto Valley, visited Crypto Valley labs... >> What feels best for you? >> I don't know, Mother Earth! (laughs) >> All of the above. >> The point of bitcoin is for us to start being able to treat this earth as one, and as you navigate through the crypto circuit one thing as that is becoming more visible is the power of China partnering up with the Middle East and building a One Belt, One Road initiative. I feel like One Belt, One Road ties right into the future of crypto, and it's opening up the power of markets like the Philippines, Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore. >> What Gabriel's doing in the Caribbean with Barbados. >> Gabriel from Bit, yeah. >> Yeah, Bit, he's bringing them all together. >> Yeah, I mean the island nations are open arms to companies, and I think they will attract a lot of American companies for sure. >> So you're seeing certainly more, in some pockets, more advanced regulatory climates, outside of the United States, and the talent pool is substantial. >> So then, when it comes to talent pools, I believe it was in global commits for the language of Python, China is just on the verge of surpassing the United States, and there's a lot of just global breakthroughs happening, there's a large number of Full Stack engineers at a very high level in countries like China, India, Ukraine. These are three countries that I think are outliers in that a Full Stack Engineer, at the highest level in a country like India or Ukraine for example, would cost a company between $2,000 to $5,000 a month, to employ full time, in a country where they likely won't take stock to work for your company. >> Fifteen years ago those countries were outsource, "hey, outsource some cheap labor," no, now they're product teams or engineers, they're really building value. >> They're building their own things, in-house. >> And the power of new markets are opening up as you said, this is huge, huge. OK, Hartej, thanks so much for coming on, I know you got to go, you got your event October 9th to 11th in Las Vegas, Blockchain Security Conference. >> The CUBE will be there. >> I look forward to having you there. >> You guys are the leader in Blockchain security, congratulations, hosho.io, check it out. Hosho.io, October 9th, mark your calendars. The CUBE, we are live here in Toronto, for the Blockchain Futurist Conference, with our good friend, CUBE alumni Hartej. I'm John Furrier, Dave Vellante, be right back with more live coverage from the Untraceable event here in Toronto, after this short break.

>> Announcer: Live, from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE covering Dell EMC World 2017. Brought to you by Dell EMC. >> Okay, welcome back everyone, we're live here, day three of three days of coverage of theCUBE at Dell EMC World 2017. I'm John Furrier with my co-host Paul Gillin and special guest on our day-three opening, Peter Burris, head of research of SiliconANGLE Media, general manager of wikibon.com research. Guys, good to see you on day three. We're goin' strong. I mean, I think I feel great, a lot of activity. So many story lines to talk about. Obviously the big one is the combination, not merger, I slipped yesterday, or acquisition, the combination of equals, Dell, EMC. Some will question did EMC acquire Dell or Dell acquire EMC? Certainly Michael Dell's still captain of the ship. But that's the top story. But a lot of product line conversations. Not a lot of overlap. Peter, you've been at all the analyst sessions. We had David Furrier on yesterday, teasing it up, but I'd like to get you, your perspective and reaction to your thoughts as you look at the giants in the industry. Michael Dell bought EMC for a record 60 billion plus. You've been around the block. You've seen many waves. You've analyzed many generations of the computer industry. What does this actually mean. Where are they, what's your thoughts and reaction? >> So John, I'll give you three different story lines here, right? The meta-picture, the good, and the what the hell's goin' on kind of picture. The first one, the meta-picture is, and SiliconANGLE said this, it was a really well written article, you might have even written it Paul, that there has never really been a successful mega-merger in the tech industry. And historically I think that's because, well here's the bottom line. This one may actually work. And it may actually work nicely. And the reason is is that most of the other mergers or combinations were companies with problems and companies that didn't have problems. Or companies with problems and companies with problems. And if you take a look at Dell and EMC, neither of them had problems. They weren't buying each other's problems. It was a nice combination and complimentary in that EMC had a great consumer business, great channel business, and had a pretty strong financial position. And EMC had a great enterprise business, great, you know-- >> Sales organizations. >> Great sales organization. And they had, they were strong in where the industry's going around how do you handle data and how do you handle storage. So it's got, what we're seeing here is everybody singing out of the same hymnal. I'm not seeing any tension. And that is an indication that this one may actually go well. I think it's a very, very good early sign. >> Paul, you and I were talking on the day one open and also, we kind of hit it a little bit yesterday with David Furrier, talking about this mega-merger. Compare and contrast that to HBE, which is been kind of, being de-positioned by some of the Dell executives. They don't actually call 'em out by name, but HP Enterprise is taking a different approach. They're taking a, you know, smaller is better approach. Obviously, Michael Dell has a complete different philosophy. We're still going to analyze that as well. We've got HPE Discover coming up as well. Thoughts on the compare and contrast, guys, reaction to the strategies of HPE, smaller, faster, as they say. Or Dell, bigger, more powerful. >> I think both are viable strategies. It's just a matter of if they can pull it off. I mean, HP, you talk about bad mergers, Peter, I mean you think of HP Compact, HP Autonomy, this is a company that has had a terrible track record of big mergers. Although they've had some successful ones certainly. >> By the Meg Whitman inherited those. >> Yes. >> Prior to Meg Whitman coming on board. >> Oh she was a board member for some of them. >> Okay, so she was at the table. Now, we don't know, okay but your thoughts, continue. >> But Dell, clearly going the other direction. They, I mean, they're building sort of an IBM-like model, the way IBM was in the '80s when it dominated every market that it played in. And it played at even more markets than Dell does now. So I think that the model makes sense. I think Peter's absolutely right, I'm not sensing any tension at this conference. There seems to be, the most important thing is there seems to be a lot of communication going on. The executives are spending a lot of time with each other and they're talking a lot to the people. And when you look back, and I live, and Peter, you remember the DEC, you know, the fiasco with DEC being purchased by Compaq. That was clearly a takeover. And that was Compaq came in, took over the company and didn't tell anybody anything. And the DEC people were living in the dark and it was clear that they had no value to the acquiring company. That, clearly, they're not making those mistakes here. >> For the younger, for the younger audience, DEC is Digital Equipment Corporation which was a behemoth winner in the micro, mini-computer era and then now defunct company. >> Except the one, one thing I'd add to that, Paul, is that, and this is why, it's why this first sign is so important. That they are seem to be, that executives here seem to be collaborating and working together. DEC had been one of those mini-computer companies dominated by an OEM business, which means you had a common set of components and then everybody was competing for customers with how you put those components together. So there was, it was a, it was a maelstrom of internal competition at DEC. When Compaq got ahold of DEC, that DEC sense of internal competition took over Compaq. And then when Compaq, when HP acquired Compaq, that maelstrom and internal competition took over HP. >> They didn't know what they were getting into. >> We used to call it the red-blue wars and it was ugly. And that's not happening here. That's a first sign. >> Yeah, I would agree Peter. I want to get your thoughts to all that. I would agree that this is, I've been tryin' to sniff out where the wind's blowin' on this for a year and to my knowledge, and my insight and sources, it's not going bad at all. It's going great. The numbers are performing, they're winning some deals, but let's compare to HP because I asked Mark Heard at their Oracle media event last week, cause they were touting number one in every market. So I said, "Well, there's a digital transformation "going on, a whole new way to do business "for the next 33 years, "not looking back at the past 33 years." Which metrics are you using? Everyone's claiming to be number one at something. So, the question is, maybe HP does have it right. Maybe their strategy will work. What are the, what are going to be those metrics for this next generation? If cloud becomes the connective tissue to data, value of data, and that apps are going to be very agile. Maybe this decentralized approach from HP might be a better strategy for the growth. Thoughts. >> Well, look, let's, so let's, I want to get back to the, what's good about what we're seeing and some other things that probably need to be worked on, but, but here's what I'd say, John. And this is what Wikibon believes. That customers is always going to be the most important metric. So, the first metric is, is HP gaining customers? Is HP losing customers? Is Dell gaining customers? Or is Dell losing customers? That's the number one most important metric. Always will be as far as I'm concerned. But the second one is, and this, and I'll pre-say something I'm going to talk about in a little bit. The second one is, I'll call it data under management. If we think about, if we think about this notion of data as an asset, data as a source of value, how much does HP, through it's customers, how much data does, does HP have under management? How much data does Dell/EMC have under management? And I think that's going to be an important way of thinking about the intensity of the relationships, which relationships are going to steer towards which types of environments. Is it going to be a procurement relationship or a real strategic relationship? By procurement, I mean, it's fundamentally focused on driving cost out of the deal. Strategic, I mean it's fundamentally focused by jointly creating value. So this notion of data under management, to me, is going to be something we're going to be talking about in five years. >> So, Bill Schmarzo, friend of both of ours, was, came by the set before we came on here and he's the dean of big data as coined by theCUBE but now he's takin' on it his own, like he's actually a dean now teaching big data. We are talking about some of the research that you're doing and taking a stand on, it's important, I want to put a plug in for the Wikibon research team that you're leading, is the business value of data. >> Peter: Oh absolutely. >> And that you're looking at data as a valuation mechanism, not an accounting, compliance thing. And this is something, I think, is way ahead of the curve. So props to you guys for puttin' the stake in the ground. To your point, the new metric might just be the valuation of how they use data, whether that's customer data, product services data, application development concepts to reconfiguring how they do business. >> And it's the reconfigure that's the smart, that's the absolutely right word. So, from our perspective John, the difference between a business and a digital business is a business uses data one way, a digital business uses data another way. A business uses data as an, something to just handle coordination and administration. >> Paul: Bookkeeping. >> Yeah, exactly. A digital business uses data as a strategic asset to differentiate how to engage to markets. That's where the industry's going, and that's what we want to talk about. >> And by the way, in previous business constructs or business books people have, might have read over the years certainly, you know, the Peter Druckers and so on, management consultants, never actually factored data into the value chains of-- >> Oh they did, they did, they did. They just didn't actually, so Drucker, for example did. >> John: Digital data? >> Oh, he talked about information and the role that information played. >> John: I stand corrected. >> Herbert Simon talked about this kind of stuff 50 years. Unfortunately it all got lost when we went through things like, jeez, you know, there was a very famous economist who said in the late 80s, "Information technology "shows up everywhere but in the productivity numbers." So, you old guys would-- >> I remember that, I remember that quote. >> So, the idea ultimately is we now have to get very discrete and very specific about what that means. And that's a challenge. But let's come back to, let's come back to at least what we think is really working here, if I may. >> John: Absolutely, go ahead. >> So the first thing is, at a more tactical level, number one is the Hyperconvert story is exciting. And it's starting to come together. And again, I'm not, we're not seeing tension between the folks that are selling servers and the folks that are doing Hyperconversion. Both are introducing new technology that are going to create new opportunities for customers, and they're not as, as, as your good friend Michael Dell said, a couple times over the past year, here in theCUBE, "We are not going to "artificially constrain any of our businesses." And, as Amazon said at re:Invent, "If you're going to do it at scale, "eventually you're going to put in hardware." And he wants to demonstrate that all this great software stuff that's happening, that ultimately Dell's going to be the leader at designing these new capabilities into the hardware and he wants to show how that's going to show up in all his product lines. >> That's a great point. I think the most interesting dynamic I've been seeing out of the interviews we've been doing the last two days is that the problem Dell has to struggle with now, and it'll be interesting to watch how they, how they figure this out, is all of their, used to be called the Federation, now they're called the Strategic Business Alliances I think. The, you know, the VMwares, the RSAs, the Pivotals, how are they going to make sense of those in the context of this bigger whole? On the one hand, they've got some competing priorities here. Dell has a very strong relationship with Microsoft, VMware is a competitor to Microsoft. So you got to figure out how to get those, how to make sense of those different alliances. Pivotal is potentially a competitor to Microsoft. >> Potentially? >> Well, Microsoft is in the pass business, yeah. >> No, it is yeah, it's going to compete. >> So you've got a, you've got some paradoxes here in the businesses that Dell has acquired. They really still, I sense they still haven't made sense of what they're going to do with them. >> Yeah, great point. I mean, first of all, you guys are pros and we have a historical view here of the collective intelligence of all of us old guys here. We've seen a lot of ways. But Rob Hof wrote an article on SiliconANGLE, our Editor-in-Chief Rob Hof, who's also an industry veteran and journalist himself. After the Oracle media event, and the headline reads, "In Oracle's Cloud Pitch to Enterprises, "an Echo of a Bygone Tech Era." And his point with this story is, I want to get your reaction to this, cause I think we're seeing a trend here, you guys are teasing out here. We're kind of going back down to the old tech days. You were the Editor-in-Chief of Computerworld back in the day with the mainframe world and then the minis. Seeing Marius Haas on here using words like "Single pain of glass." "One throat to choke." "End to end." We're almost seeing the bygone era coming back again where maybe they might have the rights to it. Certainly Oracle saying, "Hey, you know, "reorganize our sales force." So the question. Is the cloud the de-centralized mainframe. Is it now the new centralized, with edge, intelligent edge, is that, are we going back to the old ways, in a way, not fully but, unifying the sales forces. >> So, the computing industry-- >> Thoughts. >> Has been been on an inexorable march to greater utilization of public infrastructure. What an economist would say is we've always found ways to reduce asset specificities. I buy something, and I apply it to one purpose. I can't apply it to another purpose. Software changes that. Commodity pricing and hardware changes that. Public infrastructure changes that. So we're going to continue to see that inexorable march to the use of public infrastructure or somethin' that looks like public infrastructure. And that's going to continue. And the industry's always been very, very good at that. That does not mean, however, that we're going to have one supplier. So what we're seeing is a lot of FUD right now. Amazon FUD, Dell FUD, Oracle FUD. There is a real tension in the model and the real tension is, more than likely, the future is going to be composites of services operating on multiple different cloud-like instances, including on premise. And who's going to offer the best end-to-end control plane? >> Paul, I want to get your thoughts. Cause you remember goin' back to the days, IBM had SNA network stack, DEC had DECnet, we had, they had propietary stacks. Cloud, Azure stack, this stack, that. Are we seeing this again? Your thoughts. >> Well I think Peter's absolutely right but the variable, and you're right, we are seeing this again. We're seeing a trend of return to simplicity. Because what IT organizations have been wrestling with for the last 20 years is everything is just getting more complex. There's more vendors, there's more piece parts, and they've got to fit them all together, and it sucks. And so they want someone to simplify this. Now, cloud vendors simplify it on one level. But software-defined, on another level. We've been talking here about software defined storage, about software-defined networking, massive virtualization. And that's on an open source or at least an open API-based model. Which I think is the twist here. Are we going back to the days of IBM? Yeah. But IBM, But the IBM may actually be software-defined. >> Or five different companies that look like IBM. >> I know what you're saying Paul, and I'm not going to disagree with you. But here's the opposite-- >> But you disagree with him. >> No, no, but no I'm not going to, I'm going to put a slightly different spin on it. It used to be that the most valuable asset in an IT organization was the mainframe. And the entire organization was organized and the interactions with the business were organized and put in place to handle the value of that mainframe. We are not going back to a day where the IT organization, the way business uses IT is organized around the mainframe as an asset. Or even around the provision of infrastructure as an asset. We are going to start seeing organization and frameworks that are fundamentally built around this idea of data as an asset. And that is going to be a lot more complex with a lot more buyers and a lot more opportunities for differentiation creating value. So we will see more complexity in IT at the software and the use case level, less complexity at the infrastructure levels. >> Which is why machine learning and automation gets a lot of hype, but to Paul, I'm going to get your point and tie Peter's point together and introduce Jeff Bezos' comment last week on NDC. He mentioned that most things take 10 years to bake out in terms of getting things right. Ten year kind of horizon. Kind of an order of magnitude. But he says, "All these startups say they have "disruptive technology, it's not their technology that's "disruptive, it's what's the customer is disrupted." So we're talkin' about customers being disrupted. It's not some company having disruptive technologies. >> And disrupting. >> So are we saying that customers are being disrupted by reconfiguring their businesses, hence with the mainframe disrupted, a new way to do things, we're seeing clouded-data as a new way to do things. So, that's causing some reconfiguration and disruption, allows them to say, "Shit, just when I thought it was simple "it got more complex." >> But the disruptive element is the data as Peter says. >> I mean the machines are becoming, the machines are already a commodity. The, with open source, the platforms are a commodity. What's disruptive is how you use the data in different ways. And to your point Peter, yes, it's going to be a much more complex world. >> Peter: Much more. >> Because there's a lot more data and there's a lot more things we can do with data. >> And data can, that's exactly right. We can do so much more with data. So again, let's go back to the fundamental metric that at least I suggested. Who gets more customers? There are going to be more buyers of this stuff in five years than there are today. More buyers in the sense that within an organization, there's going to be more people involved in the decision and there's going to be more businesses. Because if this stuff actually works, the transaction costs are going to go down and you can then organize your businesses, institutionalize how you do work differently so you can have more partnerships. All that means that fundamentally, what we're talkin' about here is going to lead to greater complexity in business, greater opportunity therefore, but what I've always said, and I don't know if you've heard this Paul, but I know you have John, and I've said it on theCUBE. That the fundamental demarcation is that the first 50 years of this industry featured known process, unknown technology. And what do you we focus on? The technology. What's the next 50 years? Unknown process, known technology. What are we going to focus on? How to build that software, how to handle those data assets. What are we going to focus less attention on? The technology. What does everybody want to talk about at this show? >> The technology. >> Technology. That's a disconnect. So going to one of the things that we now have to think about from a DELL/EMC standpoint is where's the story about how Dell is going to appreciate the value of your data assets over time. We need more of that. >> And let me point out, you now, you didn't mention IBM but one company that is doing that well right now, they aren't getting the business benefit for it yet, is IBM. Where they are really taking, they are not technology, I mean they don't talk about power aid anymore. They talk about Watson, they talk about what you can do with analytics, they talk about a smarter planet. They haven't been able to turn this into a successful business yet but they're doing, I think, exactly what you're talking about. >> Well the product, they have some product challenges. I mean, so let's get back down to the customer thing. I like that angle. You got to have the customer, you got to have the products that customers will be buying. That's the value, exchange that customers will value and then hence by your service or product. Andy Jassy and Pat Gelsinger, when they did the Amazon deal, VMware. Jassy, Andy Jassy CEO of AWS said to me, "We are customer focused." So I believe that you're right on this 100%. Whoever can get the customers. And this is not about who's the better stack, if the customers like it, they're going to buy it. >> And very importantly, John, they are going to invest in it to make it valuable in their business. And that's what you want. You want to see your customers become a centerpiece of value-creation in your ecosystem. >> And I think Amazon Web Services proves that the dark horse could come out of nowhere and be the behemoth that they are because they served the customers. >> So that's the second thing that I'm missing at this show. And I know, I think I know why, is where is the additional details, even a little bit more, about VMware and AWS. Now, I know that they're going to wait for the VMware World, that's the story. >> They showed a little preview in the keynote, it's still baking out. >> Yeah, but it would be nice to have a little bit more. >> That's one of those tough relationships they need to manage, right? >> Yeah, exactly right. >> I mean VMware and IBM also have an alliance. They are allied with their foes now through the acquisition. The point about, about the value of data, you know, I think Amazon has done a good job of building platforms that are very flexible for customers to use but they abstract a lot of the underlying complexity. >> Alright, so with the data, I want to just double-down on that for a second and get your reaction, thoughts on, obviously, one of the themes here is IOT and we heard Michael Dell saying it's going to be centralized, pushed out to the edge, you got in research from Wikibon intellegent edge. You and David Floy and the rest of the team doing some real amazing work at Wikibon.com. Check it out, subscription required. What's the edge strategy? What does that actually mean for IT practitioners out there? It's, certainly we heard from Bask Iyer, who's the CIO of Dell said, "Most CIOs are conservative "and don't usually jump on these waves." They missed mobile, they missed some other waves. His mandate was, CIOs, don't miss the IOT wave. So what is the IOT, this edge of the network thing mean for a CIO. >> Well, the first thing is in hardcore circumstances, many CIOs aren't even involved in the edge. So if you take a look, if you go into where a lot of the edged domains are really crucial, you see a plant manager that's more responsible for what's going on in the edge than the CIO. The CIO is handling the corporate systems. The plant manager is handling what's actually happening at the edge. The operational technology stuff. So the first thing is we're going to see a slow circling of the IT and OT organizations about who's going to win-- >> OT meaning Operational Technology. >> Operational Technology. Just as we saw a slow circling back in the 1990s when TCPIP came in, and blew away DEC and blew away everybody, and started blowing away the TELECOM divisions, or TELECOM's functions within side large enterprises. >> So you think that IOT is going to be as disruptive as TCPIP was in standardizing in the network layer. >> Oh absolutely, absolutely. It's going to be, it's going to have an enormous impact because there's so many new sources. The data is going to have, how to think about it, and that was the second point I was going to make, John, is we do not currently have architectural standards in place for thinking about how this stuff is going to come together. And it's something that David Furrier and I and the Wikibon team are working on and I hope to come up with, I hope to come out with some research, actually probably next month, on what we call automation zones or data zones or probably edge zones. Which is, how do, just we think about security zones today, how do we think about edge zones. Where the edge zone is defined by a moment, an automation moment, cannot have data outside of that zone. And that needs to become an architectural principle where OT and IT can work together and say, "What data has to be in that zone? "I'll make sure my data gets there, "you make sure you're data gets there. "We'll figure out how control happens, "and that's how we drive this thing forward." >> Well, just to give you a prop here on theCUBE here is, Wikibon was right about Flash, they were right about Hyperconvergence and convergent infrastructure. Big bets early on that were kind of like, people were like, "What?" And certainly Vstand, ServiceStand although some people will disagree with this. >> They were right about the edge. >> Now you're right about, I think you're right on, way right on the edge and you're way right on value of data. >> Yeah. >> I think those are two stands that you're taking that will be-- >> And let's give great props to David Furrier who was a catalyst for thinking many of these things through. >> Alright Paul, final word from you. Obviously, you know, as a veteran, you've covered it all. Okay, what's your take? I mean, what's the, how's the wind blowing, what's your instinct tell you of what's happening. >> I think it's generally good, but it's hard to tell from conferences. As you know John, the reason most conferences are so boring is that there's no tension, there's no conflict. It's all good, it's all everybody's happy and everybody's doin' a great job. That's the very same thing that we're seeing here. >> Rah rah, Kool-aid injection. >> One thing I can't help notice is on the keynote, if you look at the keynote agenda for the three days, there's not a single customer on the, on the keynote agenda. Which I think is a problem. Or I don't think that says good things about where Dell is really focusing it's message right now. You want to have, at most big company conferences, there's lots and lots of customers who come up on stage. I think Dell is still thinking about, I mean it's a technology-focused company. They're thinking about technology integration right now. >> So speeds and feeds. >> Yeah, you hear a lot of speeds and feeds. >> Everybody wants to be the most important thing in the enterprise, and they still want hardware to be the most important thing. >> Well, I think I mean, I would agree with you 100%, but I just think, just, in this acquisition, I mean, sorry, merger of equals, they have a lot of herding cats going on right now. There's a lot of herding of portfolio and not a lot of overlap but I can see them kind of making room on the stage for that. But I do agree, I mean, customers do tell the best story. >> And in the long run, that's, as Peter said, that is what is going to make the difference. Are the customers happy? >> Guys, amazing exchange. Thanks so much, Peter, for comin' out and takin' some time out of your busy schedule to come on theCUBE and share your insight. The daily on-cue Paul, as always, we're havin' another three days. Third day of our three days of coverage here on theCUBE. Great commentary, great analysis, more live coverage from day three of Dell/EMC World 2017. We'll be right back, stay with us, we'll be right back after this short break.