(upbeat electronic music) >> From the Hard Rock Hotel in Las Vegas, it's theCUBE covering HoshoCon 2018 brought to you by Hosho. >> OK, welcome back everyone. We're live in Las Vegas for HoshoCon. I'm John Furrier, the host of theCUBE. This is the first inaugural security conference around blockchain. Our next guest is John Kirch, who's the Chief Evangelist for Sentinel Protocol. Great to see you, thanks for coming on. Hey, it's great to be here, John. Thank you very much for inviting me. >> I love the shirt, I got my CUBE shirt here. You got your shirt on. Cool crowd here. So, before you get into some of the things you guys are working on, what's the scene here like, for people who aren't here, this is the first ever blockchain security conference around in the industry. What are the type of people that are here? And what's going on? Why is this important? >> Well, that's a really good question. I mean, I can think back and I remember meeting the president of Hosho. For the first time back in New York at Consensus. And he was giving a presentation, and I thought it was fantastic presentation, but we broke ice, we shook hands. And then we bumped into each other again in Soul. And then I was also talking to Tim Draper not too long ago. And Tim said, he was coming out here to Las Vegas to give a presentation. And he is one of our key investors. So we thought, it would be a good idea for us to show up as well. And we believe that many times in trade shows and other types of seminar series, there's too much emphasis on fintech and not on security. And the reason why I say that, is basically in the blockchain crypto world, right now one of the major challenges holding back the growth and the success is the lack of security. Not in a core blockchain technology, but in the Dapps and in the other connected applications. People are getting hacked. And there's different types of hackings, everything from Phishing, to malware, to DNS engine hacking, to smart contracts, web applications, I mean. >> The surface area is large. >> It, many different vectors, and it's complex. Something needs to be done about it in order to unlock the potential of blockchain crypto. >> Yeah, and I also love this event because one, it's, well first of anything is always good because it's present on creation, and you don't know, there might be another one, if it's around the next year or not. But I think this one seems like it's got the right people at it that it would grow. Because, remember. >> Yeah. >> The security is the number one problem, it should be seamless, it's complicated, multiple keys to deal with, multiple chains, never mind in the surface area for hacking. So I think blockchain is going to be a sea-change. We all know that, all tech alpha entrepreneurs are getting that. The complexity around the software is the key. What do you guys, how do you guys look at this? Because you guys are in the business to solve this problem. >> Right. >> What's the answer here? >> Well, we'd look at it from a experience point of view of cybersecurity. What I mean by that is that we have a lot of people on the team that come from companies like Palo Alto Networks, and F5, and Fortinet, I come from Darktrace, and other cybersecurity companies as well. But we'd look at it from the point of view, what did we do in the past, what were the problems, how can we leverage these technologies. What's wrong with the stuff that we did before, and how can we correct those gaps and provide a better product that's more usable, easier to install, and then has the multi-vector analysis capabilities to do the, not just antivirus, for instance, but how about AI, machine learning for detecting new anomalies and behavior or newer threats and attacks, or sandboxing. But how do we solve the problem is really our main focus. >> So I got to ask you question. A lot of people in the industry that are smart or trying to attack this problem, there's two schools of thoughts. We are going to get the software, going to get to the AI, got to do all the stuff over here, and then there's radical view is, Hey, the old model isn't working for blockchain, 'cause it's a different architecture, it's decentralized, so you can't just take network protocol stacks and say, Hey this is your security stack in the old network model to decentralize. So it needs a redo. >> Right. >> A refresh or a do-over. >> Right, right. >> So, this is, seems to be tension that's productive but still contentious. >> Right. >> What's the answer, because your old Juniper, Cisco switches might not be the perimeter-based firewall model, >> I'd love that question. >> We need a do-over or not? >> So, we are the world's first crowdsourced threat intelligence platform. I didn't say product, I said platform. And that means multiple various different types of products on our platform, but in addition to that, one of the biggest problems today is the need to update. Let's say, if you're looking at things from an antivirus point of view, if you haven't updated your database, your system, then you've got vulnerabilities that you haven't addressed. And so we don't need to be updated. Our system is running on a decentralized blockchain, and therefore is connected to APIs, to different types of endpoints. We are platform-agnostic, so we could connect to IoT-type devices or, you know, other types of, mobile telephones, or to PCs, servers, and so on. And, by having this collective cybersecurity intelligence, by definition, that means we have a richer, wider database of more information, than if you license a product from, let's say, any one of the antivirus vendors. You get that company's intelligence and support services only. But we're doing it, where we're taking company A plus B, plus C, plus this white hat hacker, plus this individual here, and we're, basically, combining all that together and offering it to our clients. >> And so, is it the single source of truth or knowledge around trust, how's the trust factor come in. 'Cause, if I'm a company I want to know that everything I'm running is updated. I want to know what it is first, and then it's updated. >> And you know, in this decentralized trustless world, there is, from our point of view, a need for an organization that can be trusted by people who have been hacked or experienced suspicious activity. So, we are addressing that, so we have a team of people called the Sentinels, and they are tested and certified by our internal cybersecurity experts, as having the capabilities and the knowledge and experience to contribute. And when those people make contributions, in terms of cybersecurity intelligence, we award them with points, and those points can be converted to fiat or into other crypto tokens. >> So you're tokenizing the contribution. >> We are. >> Relative to the crowdsourcing. >> Exactly. >> So this is like CrowdStrike, or is it different? >> Oh, it's different, I think, from CrowdStrike, because CrowdStrike, while it's a very good company and very good product, what we're doing is that we're combining blacklist with whitelist and we're providing the reporting service. And so, and we're running it on a blockchain, and the blockchain has certain elements that are very very good in terms immutability, or a very high type of resilience factor, or traceability, and so we're really taking our product and focusing it on the blockchain crypto world, but quite frankly, what we're building, because we're utilizing the technology in the optimal manner, it is also applicable to the conventional cybersecurity world too. And I expect that it'll be very commonly used there tomorrow. >> So, it's portable in the sense of the function. You can actually bring this to the class of cybersecurity, known detection type identification. >> I could be using it for Goldman Sachs or Bank of America, or, let's say, this hotel. >> Some of the global cybersecurity landscape, how would you, you know, if someone's putting their toe in the water for the first time. You're obviously in the trenches doing cutting edge work, certainly folks in Washington, D.C., around the world, have cyber conversations, from general Keith Alexander, there's new companies got some interesting things going on there. To kind of grokking it, what's so this, there's crowdsourcing, how would you brake up the cybersecurity market, 'cause cyber intelligence is a big part of regional cloud deployments now, Amazon's going to have a region in the Middle East. I'm sure they got their DNS monitored well. But you have network points and you have software running on them. How is the market sliced up? Is there categories, like, that are cleanly defined? How do you view that? >> Well, you know, I look at things from a point of view of having started in the cybersecurity world, John, back in 1998. And that was when I introduced the company called WatchGuard to the Japanese market, and also did that in Korea as well. But we pioneered the use of Linux appliances. Would you believe that? (John laughing) And we also pioneered managed security services. And so, one of the things that I learned over time as the cybersecurity world increased in complexity, I mean, back there it was easy, all you needed was an antivirus and you needed network firewall. >> And you had proprietary software too, open source wasn't as prevalent. >> Exactly, but things keep on getting ratcheted up, the complexity factor is growing. And now we look at cybersecurity and there are so many different types of products and services. And so it really comes down to understanding the security policy of the end user, of the organization or the individual. What type of PC they're using? Is it IBM, is it Apple? For them putting together a security policy and then bringing in different types of products that, basically, help that individual or that organization to satisfy that policy. And then tuning that over time. Most people don't think about that part, but the tuning process is also very important. So, and then educating people too, so. >> What's a number one industry problem that industry needs to solve as an industry, and then, what is the biggest concern that end users or organizations will have? Well, I think that biggest problem out there right now that hasn't been solved, is what's going on in front of our very eyes, this, the hacking of these exchanges and wallets. I mean, those organizations have lost now over three billion dollars, cumulative over the past few years, and then over one billion dollars this year. I mean, that's a lot of money. >> It's a lot of cash. >> And somebody needs to do something. >> And nobody knows where it goes, I mean, >> Well, actually we do know where it goes. Because, actually, that's the video I wanted to show today after my presentation, but there just wasn't enough time. We analyzed the Zaif hacking that happened just a few weeks ago. >> How much did they take? >> It was about 60 million dollars. But we analyzed that, and using crowdsourced information, we analyzed the transactions and so forth, and we found, believe it or not, that a large portion of those stolen Bitcoins were washed and went through Binance, the world's largest crypto exchange. And so, if they utilized our technology, to understand that the coins that are going through them were stolen, we would do a lot to increase the cost factor for monetizing stolen Bitcoins, we would help Binance to protect themselves. >> So the laundering of the coins, >> Yes. >> You could, basically, put a penalty on that, or >> Well, I don't look at it from a penalty point of view. I look at it from the point of view of helping people to make transactions that are kosher, that meet with their corporate policy, that comply with law, that enable them to ensure, that what they are doing is correct. >> So, you tracked the address, how do you know they are being washed, from that specific >> We, basically, track the addresses, we were able to track the addresses and I can show you a video later, if you like to, where we did just that. >> Yeah, I would like to get a copy of that. >> And the information, this is on the blockchain, show that the coins went through Binance. >> So, meaning the old classic IT operations, you always had the network management's piece, this is, again, can be a big part of traceability and accountability piece of it. >> Correct. >> This is important. >> Yeah, in fact, you know, it's really important that when you think about this world. For instance, if I were to give you five dollars. >> Thanks. >> And you were to get ripped off, and somebody took that five dollars from you, how would, John, how would you trace that five dollars? >> I would track the guy around that had stole it, find out where it is, but if I don't know who's took it, then... >> If you went to the police and ask them for help, do you think they could help you analyze and trace that and audit? >> Well, in San Francisco they break into cars and just take whatever they want. The police don't even show up. >> Right, but that's relying on luck, do you know, did he open the right car, >> I wouldn't. I wouldn't know who had this. >> But, you know, that's one of the great things is that with the blockchain technology, if you use it correctly, you can trace, many times, not all the time. But it does offer us very... >> 'Cause there's a digital footprint. >> Yeah. >> There's definitely a traceability aspect. >> And that's one of the nice advantages. So, I'd rather give you Bitcoin than the five-dollar bill. >> Yeah, I'll take the Bitcoin, it probably is worth more than the five. Money is going away, paper money, I don't now have a need for. Talk about the aspect of Bitcoin in cryptocurrency, as it relates to the funding of security attacks, because that's been a big concern, people trying to figure that out. Have you guys made any progress on tracking the funding, the underground funding for security attacks. >> Well, when you think about it, and when you think about the funding of security attacks, it's now teams, and a lot of these teams are very well trained and educated. >> And they're making some good money too. >> Yeah, and so they're making good money, they've monetized this. And all it takes is one time that they break in. And, so, once they break in, and you're compromised, so you have to defend every every time, and do it well, but they only need to break in once. But in terms of that, >> One bad day. >> The one bad day. >> One bad second. >> And your company's gone. >> Yeah. >> But the funding of these endeavors is getting more and more sophisticated, the money involved is becoming much much more bigger, and we need to ratchet up our defenses, so that we can provide an adequate response. >> So, what is the answer for me, let's just say, hypothetically, you know, I get, you know, 50 million in Bitcoin for theCUBE bank, for our community, and going to use that Bitcoin to have people have flourish with content, and I got to store it somewhere. >> Yeah. >> What do I do? >> Well. >> What's my answer? Do I call Binance and say, Hey if you going to wash and launder that, I might as well put it with you, because if you're the home for all the money. >> Well, I think that the optimal solution is to get it off the network, put it into a cold wallet, and safeguard that private key in a way that is very very secure. Do not leave it, you know, on your PC, don't tape it to your screen, but basically safeguard that privat key very well. Put it into a deposit box at a bank, that might be a good idea. >> Or multiple deposit boxes spread across. >> Yeah. >> With instructions, in case, >> But don't leave it, don't leave it in your wallet >> Yeah. >> And don't leave it on, writing on the chalkboard either, above your desk. >> Yeah (chuckling). >> But, I mean, basically, >> Or don't write it down where the surveillance cameras watching you write it down. >> And you might want to use a multisig wallet as well, and that will also increase the security as well. >> All right, well, what's the story with you guys? Give us a quick update on the Sentinel Protocol, the company. How big are you guys? You mentioned Draper funded you guys. What's the status? >> Well, you know, we started earlier this year, back in January, and now we have 30 security professionals, our headquarters are in Singapore, we have another big office up in Seoul, Korea, we have a third office in Tokyo. We now have over 42 partners. I'm very proud to say that we've got, amongst those partners, at least 10 exchanges and wallets signed on with us directly, that are very interested in using our technology, integrated into their applications. >> Yeah. >> And so, >> And why they work with you, for a hedge, for security, for insurance, what's the rationale? It's forensics, for data, what's the value for them? >> Once they've been hacked, it's pretty hard to recover. A lot of these companies that are hacked, in fact, it ends with the company closing, or being sold. So, basically, what they're trying to do is leverage our security to detect the threats and the attacks, you know, in a proactive online manner before they get damaged. And then, by doing that, they can enhance their branding, that's services they're providing to their clients, and they can also help to maximize the stability and growth of their organization, as well as, >> It's a heat shield. >> The future life. >> It's a shield for them. >> It's a shield, yes. >> So they're being proactive on the security front. >> Exactly. >> So minimize any damages that potentially could get through. >> You know, right now, John, unfortunately, if you get hacked, it's a wild, wild West, it's every man up to himself. >> Yeah, it's a total stage coach. >> Nobody's going to help you. >> With the mask on, no one knows who it is. You got to do some sort of real forensics and get lucky. >> Yeah. >> Sounds like it's hit or miss, right? >> Yeah, if you get lucky, you're a lucky man, I'll tell you, because most of the people out there are not getting lucky. >> Yeah. So, we're working together with our partners to, basically, solve this problem. >> And how much money did you guys raise? >> We raised approximately eight million dollars, but it was 25,000 Ethereum. >> OK, congratulations. >> Not at all, thank you very much. >> Well thanks for coming on. Great to meet you last night at dinner. Security is at the top of the agenda. We are here, this is theCUBE coverage, part of our ongoing 2018 blockchain cryptocurrency, now digital money coverage. Of course, as you know, we've been covering Bitcoin and blockchain on our blog since 2011, and more coverage here at HoshoCon, the first security conference dedicated to discuss security on the blockchain and the new digital assets that is now money. I'm John Furrier, stay with us for more after this short break. (upbeat electronic music)

>> Live, from Toronto Canada, it's the CUBE! Covering Blockchain Futurist Conference 2018. Brought to you by the CUBE. >> Hello everyone and welcome back. This is the CUBE's exclusive coverage here in Toronto for the Blockchain Futurist Conference, we're here all week. Yesterday we were at the Global Cloud and Blockchain Summit put on by DigitalBits and the community, here is the big show around thought leadership around the future of blockchain and where it's going. Certainly token economics is the hottest thing with blockchain, although the markets are down the market is not down when it comes to building things. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante, here with CUBE alumni and special guest Hartej Sawhney who is the founder of Hosho doing a lot of work on security space and they have a conference coming up that the CUBE will be broadcasting live at, HoshoCon this coming fall, it's in October I believe, welcome to the CUBE. >> Thank you so much for having me. >> Always great to see you man. >> What's the date of the event, real quick, what's the date on your event? >> It's October 9th to the 11th, Hard Rock Hotel & Casino, we rented out the entire property, we want everyone only to bump into the people that we're inviting and they're coming. And the focus is blockchain security. We attend over 130 conferences a year, and there's never enough conversation about blockchain security, so we figured, y'know, Defcon is still pure cybersecurity, Devcon from Ethereum is more for Ethereum developers only, and every other conference is more of a traditional blockchain conference with ICO pitch competitions. We figured we're not going to do that, and we're going to try to combine the worlds, a Defcon meets Devcon vibe, and have hackers welcome, have white hat hackers host a bug bounty, invite bright minds in the space like Max Keiser and Stacy Herbert, the founder of the Trezor wallet, RSA, y'know we've even invited everyone from our competitors to everyone in the media, to everyone that are leading the blockchain whole space. >> That's the way to run an event with community, congratulations. Mark your calendar we've got HoshoCon coming up in October. Hartej, I want to ask you, I know Dave wants to ask you your trip around the world kind of questions, but I want to get your take on something we're seeing emerging, and I know you've been talking about, I want to get your thoughts and reaction and vision on: we're starting to see the world, the losers go out of the market, and certainly prices are down on the coins, and the coins are a lot of tokens out there, >> Too many damn tokens! (laughing) >> The losers are the only ones who borrowed money to buy bitcoin. >> (laughs) Someone shorted bitcoin. >> That's it. >> But there's now an emphasis on builders and there's always been an entrepreneurial market here, alpha entrepreneurs are coming into the space you're starting to see engineers really building great stuff, there's an emphasis on builders, not just the quick hit ponies. >> Yep. >> So your thoughts on that trend. >> It's during the down-market that you can really focus on building real businesses that solve problems, that have some sort of foresight into how they're going to make real money with a product that's built and tested, and maybe even enterprise grade. And I also think that the future of fundraising is going to be security tokens, and we don't really have a viable security exchange available yet, but giving away actual equity in your business through a security token is something very exciting for sophisticated investors to participate in this future tokenized economy. >> But you're talking about real equity, not just percentage of coin. >> Yeah, y'know, actual equity in the business, but in the form of a security token. I think that's the future of fundraising to some extent. >> Is that a dual sort of vector, two vectors there, one is the value of the token itself and the equity that you get, right? >> Correct, I mean you're basically getting equity in the company, securitized in token form, and then maybe a platform like Securitize or Polymath, the security exchanges that are coming out, will list them. And so I think during the down-markets, when prices are down, again I said before the joke but it's also the truth: the only people losing in this market are the ones who borrowed to buy bitcoin. The people who believe in the technology remain to ignore the price more or less. And if you're focused on building a company this is the time to focus on building a real business. A lot of times in an up-market you think you see a business opportunity just because of the amount of money surely available to be thrown at any project, you can ICO just about any idea and get a couple a million dollars to work on it, not as easy during a down-market so you're starting to take a step back, and ask yourself questions like how do we hit $20,000 of monthly recurring revenue? And that shouldn't be such a crazy thing to ask. When you go to Silicon Valley, unless you're two-time exited, or went to Stanford, or you were an early employee at Facebook, you're not getting your first million dollar check for 15 or 20 percent of your business, even, until you make 20, 25K monthly recurring revenue. I say this on stage at a lot of my keynotes, and I feel like some people glaze their eyes over like, "obviously I know that", the majority are running an ICO where they are nowhere close to making 20K monthly recurring and when you say what's your project they go, "well, our latest traction is that we've closed about "1.5 million in our private pre-sale." That's not traction, you don't have a product built. You raised money. >> And that's a dotcom bubble dynamic where the milestone of fundraising was the traction and that really had nothing to do with building a viable business. And the benefit of blockchain is to do things differently, but achieve the same outcome, either more efficient or faster, in a new way, whether it's starting a company or achieving success. >> Yep, but at the same time, blockchain technology is relatively immature for some products to go, at least for the Fortune 500 today, for them to take a blockchain product out of R&D to the mainstream isn't going to happen right now. Right now the Fortune 500 is investing into blockchain tech but it's in R&D, and they're quickly training their employees to understand what is a smart contract?, who is Nick Szabo?, when did he come up with this word smart contracts? I was just privy to seeing some training information for multiple Fortune 500 companies training their employees on what are smart contracts. Stuff that we read four or five years ago from Nick Szabo's essays is now hitting what I would consider the mainstream, which is mid-level talent, VP-level talent at Fortune 500 companies, who know that this is the next wave. And so when we're thinking about fundraising it's the companies who raise enough money are going to be able to survive the storm, right? In this down-market, if you raised enough money in your ICO, for this vision that you have that's going to be revolutionary, a lot of times I read an ICO's white paper and all I can think is well I hope this happens, because if it does that's crazy. But the question is, did they raise enough money to survive? So that's kind of another reason why people are raising more money than they need. Do people need $100 million to do the project? I don't know. >> It's an arm's race. >> But they need to last 10 years to make this vision come true. >> Hey, so, I want to ask you about your whirlwind tour. And I want to ask in the context of something we've talked about before. You've mentioned on the CUBE that Solidity, very complex, there's a lot of bugs and a lot of security flaws as a result in some of the code. A lot of the code. You're seeing people now try to develop tooling to open up blockchain development to Java programmers, for example, which probably exacerbates the problem. So, in that context, what are you seeing around the world, what are you seeing in terms of the awareness of that problem, and how are you helping solve it? >> So, starting with Fortune 500 companies, they have floors on floors around the world full of Java engineers. Full Stack Engineers who, of course, know Java, they know C#, and they're prepared to build in this language. And so this is why I think IBM's Hyperledger went in that direction. This is why even some people have taken the Ethereum virtual machine and tried to completely rebuild it and rewrite it into functional programming languages like Clojure and Scala. Just so it's more accessible and you can do more with the functional programming language. Very few lines of code are equivalent to hundreds of lines of code in linear languages, and in functional programming languages things are concurrent and linear and you're able to build large-scale enterprise-grade solutions with very small lines of code. So I'm personally excited, I think, about seeing different types of blockchains cater more towards Fortune 500 companies being able to take advantage, right off the bat, of rooms full of Java engineers. The turn to teaching of Solidity, it's been difficult, at least from the cybersecurity perspective we're not looking for someone who's a software engineer who can teach themselves Solidity really fast. We're looking for a cybersecurity, QA-minded, quality-assurance mindset, someone who has an OPSEC mindset to learn Solidity and then audit code with the cybersecurity mindset. And we've found that to be easier than an engineer who knows Java to learn Solidity. Education is hard, we have a global shortage of qualified engineers in this space. >> So cybersecurity is a good cross-over bridge to Solidity. Skills matters. >> If you're in cybersecurity and you're a full sec engineer you can learn just about any language like anyone else. >> The key is to start at the core. >> The key is to have a QA mindset, to have the mindset of actually doing quality assurance, on code and finding vulnerabilities. >> Not as an afterthought, but as a fundamental component of the development process. >> I could be a good engineer and make an app like Angry Birds, upload it, and even before uploading it I'll get it audited by some third party professional, and once it's uploaded I can fix the bugs as we go and release another version. Most smart contracts that have money behind them are written to be irreversible. So if they get hacked, money gets stolen. >> Yeah, that's real. >> And so the mindset is shifting because of this space. >> Alright, so on your tour, paint a picture, what did you see? >> First of all, how many cities, how long? Give us the stats. >> I just did about 80 days and I hit 10 countries. Most of it was between Europe and Asia. I'll start with saying that, right now, there's a race amongst smaller nations, like Malta, Bermuda, Belarus, Panama, the island nations, where they're racing to say that "we have clarity on regulation when it comes to "the blockchain cryptocurrency industries," and this is a big deal, I'd say, mainly for cryptocurrency exchanges, that are fleeing and navigating global regulation. Like in India, Unocoin's bank has been shutdown by the RBI. And they're going up against the RBI and the central government of India because, as an exchange, their banks have been shut down. And they're being forced to navigate waters and unique waves around the world globally. You have people like the world's biggest exchange, at least by volume today is Binance. Binance has relocated 100 people to the island of Malta. For a small island nation that's still technically a part of the European Union, they've made significant progress on bringing clarity on what is legal and what is not, eventually they're saying they want to have a crypto-bank, they want to help you go from IPO to ICO from the Maltese stock exchange. Similarly also Gibraltar, and there's a law firm out there, Hassans, which is like the best law firm in Gibraltar, and they have really led the way on helping the regulators in Gibraltar bring clarity. Both Gibraltar and Malta, what's similar between them is they've been home to online gambling companies. So a lot of online casinos have been in both of their markets. >> They understand. >> They've been very innovative, in many different ways. And so even conversations with the regulators in both Malta and Gibraltar, you can hear their maturity, they understand what a smart contract is. They understand how important it is to have a smart contract audited. They already understand that every exchange in their jurisdiction has to go through regular penetration testing. That if this exchange changes its code that the code opens it up to vulnerabilities, and is the exchange going through penetration testing? So the smaller nations are moving fast. >> But they're operationalizing it faster, and it's the opportunity for them is the upside. >> My only fear is that they're still small nations, and maybe not what they want to hear but it's the truth. Operating in larger nations like the United States, Canada, Germany, even Japan, Korea, we need to see clarity in much larger nations and I think that's something that's exciting that's going to happen possibly after we have the blueprint laid out by places like Malta and Gibraltar and Bermuda. >> And what's the Wild West look like, or Wild East if you will in Asia, a lot of activity, it's a free-for-all, but there's so much energy both on the money-making side and on the capital formation side and the entrepreneurial side. Lay that out, what's that look like? >> By far the most exciting thing in Asia was Korea, Seoul, out of all the Asian tiger countries today, in August 2018, Seoul, Korea has a lot of blockchain action going on right now. It feels like you're in the future, there's actually physical buildings that say Blockchain Academy, and Blockchain Building and Bitcoin Labs, you feel like you're in 2028! (laughs) And today it's 2018. You have a lot of syndication going on, some of it illegal, it's illegal if you give a guarantee to the investor you're going to see some sort of return, as a guarantee. It's not illegal if you're putting together accredited investors who are willing to do KYC and AML and be interested in investing a couple of hundred ETH in a project. So, I would say today a lot of ICOs are flocking to Korea to do a quick fundraising round because a lot of successful syndication is happening there. Second to Korea, I would say, is a battle between Singapore and Hong Kong. They're both very interesting, It's the one place where you can find people who speak English, but also all four of the languages of the tiger nations: Japanese, Mandarin, Cantonese, Korean, all in one place in Hong Kong and Singapore. But Singapore, you still can't get a bank account as an ICO. So they're bringing clarity on regulation and saying you can come here and you can get a lawyer and you can incorporate, but an ICO still has trouble getting a bank account. Hong Kong is simply closer in proximity to China, and China has a lot of ICOs that cannot raise money from Chinese citizens. So they can raise from anybody that's not Chinese, and they don't even have a white paper, a website, or even anybody in-house that can speak English. So they're lacking English materials, English websites, and people in their company that can communicate with the rest of the world in other languages other than Mandarin or Cantonese. And that's a problem that can be solved and bridges need to be built. People are looking in China for people to build that bridge, there's a lot of action going on in Hong Kong for that reason since even though technically it's a part of China it's still not a part of China, it's a tricky gray line. >> Right, in Japan a lot going on but it's still, it's Japan, it's kind of insulated. >> The Japanese government hasn't provided clarity on regulation yet. Just like in India we're waiting for September 11th for some clarity on regulation, same way in Japan, I don't know the exact date but we don't have enough clarity on regulation. I'm seeing good projects pop up in Korea, we're even doing some audits for some projects out of Japan, but we see them at other conferences outside of Japan as well. Coming up in Singapore is consensus, I'm hoping that Singapore will turn into a better place for quality conferences, but I'm not seeing a lot of quality action out of Singapore itself. Y'know, who's based in Singapore? Lots of family funds, lots of new exchanges, lots of big crypto advisory funds have offices there, but core ICOs, there was still a higher number of them in Korea, even in Japan, even. I'm not sure about the comparison between Japan and Singapore, but there is definitely a lot more in Korea. >> What about Switzerland, do you have any visibility there? Did you visit Switzerland? >> I was Zug, I was in Crypto Valley, visited Crypto Valley labs... >> What feels best for you? >> I don't know, Mother Earth! (laughs) >> All of the above. >> The point of bitcoin is for us to start being able to treat this earth as one, and as you navigate through the crypto circuit one thing as that is becoming more visible is the power of China partnering up with the Middle East and building a One Belt, One Road initiative. I feel like One Belt, One Road ties right into the future of crypto, and it's opening up the power of markets like the Philippines, Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore. >> What Gabriel's doing in the Caribbean with Barbados. >> Gabriel from Bit, yeah. >> Yeah, Bit, he's bringing them all together. >> Yeah, I mean the island nations are open arms to companies, and I think they will attract a lot of American companies for sure. >> So you're seeing certainly more, in some pockets, more advanced regulatory climates, outside of the United States, and the talent pool is substantial. >> So then, when it comes to talent pools, I believe it was in global commits for the language of Python, China is just on the verge of surpassing the United States, and there's a lot of just global breakthroughs happening, there's a large number of Full Stack engineers at a very high level in countries like China, India, Ukraine. These are three countries that I think are outliers in that a Full Stack Engineer, at the highest level in a country like India or Ukraine for example, would cost a company between $2,000 to $5,000 a month, to employ full time, in a country where they likely won't take stock to work for your company. >> Fifteen years ago those countries were outsource, "hey, outsource some cheap labor," no, now they're product teams or engineers, they're really building value. >> They're building their own things, in-house. >> And the power of new markets are opening up as you said, this is huge, huge. OK, Hartej, thanks so much for coming on, I know you got to go, you got your event October 9th to 11th in Las Vegas, Blockchain Security Conference. >> The CUBE will be there. >> I look forward to having you there. >> You guys are the leader in Blockchain security, congratulations, hosho.io, check it out. Hosho.io, October 9th, mark your calendars. The CUBE, we are live here in Toronto, for the Blockchain Futurist Conference, with our good friend, CUBE alumni Hartej. I'm John Furrier, Dave Vellante, be right back with more live coverage from the Untraceable event here in Toronto, after this short break.

>> Live from Toronto, Canada, it's theCUBE, covering Global Cloud and Blockchain Summit 2018. Brought to you by theCUBE. >> Hello everyone, welcome to the live coverage here in Toronto for the Global Cloud and Blockchain Summit here put on as prior to the big event this week called the Futurist Conference. TheCUBE will be here all week with live coverage. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante as we expand our coverage with theCUBE into the blockchain and crypto token economics world. We're here on the ground. We're covering the best events. We started in 2018 initiating CUBE coverage on the sector. Of course we've been covering Bitcoin and blockchain going back to 2011 on SiliconANGLE.com. Dave, we're here to kick off what is the first inaugural event of its kind, combining cloud computing coverage with blockchain, and as we had on our fireside chat last night, we discussed this in detail. Cloud computing and blockchain, either going to be a collision course or it's going to be a nice integration. And we discussed that. This is what this show is all about, is it's really about connecting the dots to the future. The role that cloud computing will play with blockchain and token economics, a variety of different perspectives, but again, this is the first time we in the industry are starting to unpack the mega-trend of cloud computing, which we know is like a freight train powering and disrupting, and we cover it in detail. But blockchain is certainly transforming and reimagining business and process coming together. >> Well, we're here in Toronto, which of course is the birthplace of Ethereum, and it's interesting to see how Toronto has attracted so many developers in the software and engineering space, and there's a huge crypto community here. I'll give you my take on the cloud and blockchain. I don't see them on a collision course. I see blockchain, and we've talked about this, and crypto as a part of this other layer that's emerging. You had the internet, you had the web. On top of that you had cloud, mobile, social, big data, and it was essentially a cloud of remote services. What we're seeing now is this ubiquitous set of digital services of which blockchain is one. And to me it's all about automation, machine intelligence, blockchain being able to do things without middle man. You made that point last night on the fireside chat. And I think it's complementary. You need cloud for scale. Everything's digital, which means data. And you need machine intelligence for automation. And that is the new era that we're entering, and blockchain is playing a big part of that because of its inherent encryption, its immutability, and its ability to show proof of work. So it's a key component of a number of different digital services that are going to transform virtually every industry. >> Certainly, then, that's a tailwind for the industry, and certainly we see that. All the alpha entrepreneurs, alpha geeks, and a lot of the business pros see blockchain and token economics as a dynamic that will certainly change things. Today in Toronto this week, certainly not a good week for pricing of currencies. The crypto market is down, Ethereum and Ripple are at yearly lows. And communities are kind of getting scared. We talked with Matt Roszak, an early investor and founder of BloQ, last night about the price declines, and he said, "I've seen this pattern before. "These price selloffs also kick off "the next wave of growth." So there's a kind of a weeding out, was his perspective. But you can't deny that over the past 24 hours, 30 billion has been erased from the crypto market caps, and the greatest decline is happening under Bitcoin's dominance, and still increased over, still 56% over the year. So Bitcoin seems to be holding more value than, say, Ethereum. Ethereum and Ripple really under a lot of pressure. So the insiders, some are scared, some are like, hey, we've seen this movie before. Waves are a little bit rough right now, but they're in for the long game. So this is a long game going on and then there's also money being lost. >> Well, Matt was saying bet the farm now. He said he's seen this before. Take everything, the mortgage, the house. I'm not sure I would advise doing that, but this is the time, buy low. So just for the numbers, Bitcoin's high last November/December was 19,000, it's down at 6,000 now. So as you say, it's still up almost 50% for the year, but if you compress that timeframe to nine months, it's down 60%, so very, very volatile. Ethereum, on the other hand, last September was trading at around 240, 250, and today it's in the 260s. So back to where it was last September. The curve on Ethereum sort of looks like it did end of last summer, whereas Bitcoin is still almost 70% up from where it was last September. So quite a bit of difference between the two cryptocurrencies. And you mentioned Ripple, IOTA, many of the cryptocurrencies-- >> Ripple's dropping 90% from its 2018 highs. 90%. (both laugh) Some money was made and lost on that one, so again, we always say when the music stops you better be sitting in a chair. Otherwise this is bubble behavior, but you know Matt and others and the insiders are saying they're still bullish because of the pattern. Even though it's a selloff, it's a weeding out process and they see still good deals going on. And again, this is going to come fundamentally down to whose technology's going to be adopted, what kind of application can be written on blockchain, which is seeing some promise in the enterprise. Just yesterday Microsoft announced a blockchain as a service kind of thing with proof of authority and new concepts. IBM, we've been covering IBM with blockchain, their work with the Hyperledger standards. You've got the enterprises. Amazon has kind of telegraphed, they actually put a professional service note out where they are doing some blockchain. The big clouds are getting into the game, so the question is, will the clouds suck all the oxygen out of the blockchain room, and will there be room for other blockchains? Again, this is the big debate. Is it going to be a fragmentation of a series of blockchains, or will there be some sort of set of standards? Again, we don't know what the stack's going to look like because the best thing about blockchain is you could roll it out and implement a portion of the stack and still coexist with whatever standards emerge. So again, these are the questions. >> Well, one of the conversations that of course is going on is actually, the number of transactions that's occurring with Bitcoin is way down, it's probably down 20% year to date. The other conversation is we all know that Bitcoin and Ethereum, the transaction volumes can't really support what we do with Visa or even Amazon. There's a discussion in the industry going around about what if Amazon shows some other coin? Like Ripple, for example, which has much higher transaction volumes. Or what if Amazon tokenized its own business, came up its own cryptocurrency? What would that do to the price of Bitcoin, if all of a sudden you could transact in Prime using AmazonCoin or something like that? And we know that Amazon understands how to scale, it obviously understands cloud. That's why I do see cloud and blockchain as complementary. It's very difficult to predict the future. There are those who say Bitcoin is the standard, it's got the brand. There are those who say that Ethereum, because it's much more flexible and you can program distributed apps with it, have a great future. And then everybody points to the transaction volumes and says, this is just a Petri dish for the future where new technologies will emerge that scale better and can produce. >> What's interesting last night on the, we had a fireside chat with Al Burgio, serial entrepreneur, founder of DigitalBits, and Matt Roszak, obviously founder of BloQ and investor, he's on the Forbes billionaire list, super active, very engaged on a lot of advisors, Binance is one and many other deals he's done, it's interesting, you got two perspectives. Al is the networking guy who knows plumbing, knows how networks work, and Matt's a token economics genius. So the two have interesting perspectives and the battle royal going on right now, in my opinion, is two things. I think token economics is a wonderful thing that's going to happen no matter what the standards are, 'cause token economics really is the value to me of the cryptocurrency that can be applied to new business models and efficiencies. The blockchain is a land grab, and here's why. I think whoever can nail the plumbing and the pipes of the infrastructure reminds me of the early days of the dial-up web, when you had points of presence and you had the infrastructure had to be laid down. Although slow, people can dial up and get the internet, then obviously the internet got faster and faster. Blockchain's struggling from that scalability performance issues, and so the question is, on a public blockchain, you got to have the supernodes, you got to have the core infrastructure plumbing nailed. I think Al Burgio takes that perspective. Then everything else just will flourish from there. So the question is, what do those hurdles look like? And this is where the cloud guys could either be an enabler or they could be a foe against the core community. Like you said, Amazon could just snap their fingers tomorrow and take out the entire industry with one move. Just, we're going to do our own blockchain as a service. Everyone uses it, here's our token, and then a set of sub-tokens would have to be coexisting with that. And that could be a good thing, we don't know. This is the discussion. >> And governments around the world could do the same. US government could do Fedcoin, the Chinese government could do Chinacoin. I mean, what would that do to the prices of cryptocurrencies? I mean, it would send it into a tailspin, you would presume. And it was interesting. Matt Roszak on your panel last night, I asked the question, well, traditional banks lose control of the payment systems. And granted, he's biased, and he was definitive. Yes, absolutely. But the counterargument to that, John, and I'd love your thoughts on this, is the US government and the banks have a lot to lose. And they're kind in bed together and always have been. So one would think, with the backing of the US, its might, its military, et cetera, that they're not just going to let the banks lose control. Now, to his point is, why do you need to pay transaction fees to a bank? But you're paying transaction fees to somebody, even in crypto. >> I think our government in the United States is really asleep at the wheel on this one. And here's why. One of the beautiful things about the internet was it was started through collaboration in the universities in the United States. The United States enabled the internet to happen, and the Department of Commerce managed it. The Domain Name System was managed in a very community-oriented way. Again, community, keyword. As opposed to all this, that history is well-documented. If people aren't familiar with the history of the Domain Name System, DNS, go check out the Wikipedia, research it. It was run by a bunch of people who managed the database of website names. And that became sacred and was distributed. >> And funded by the US government. >> Funded by the US government, but the community managed it. The problem with the US government today is that they are meddling in areas that they actually shouldn't be even playing in. You got the SEC, it's shutting down everything right now just by the threat of subpoenas in the ICO market, which puts the overall country into a handicapped position, because now the innovation of blockchain and the entrepreneurial innovation that's happening is stunted, and it's just shifting outside the United States. So what's happening is the money flow and the energy and the activity is so high that incubation's not happening in the United States, although a lot of people are working on it. There's no funding mechanism. The capital formation of blockchain's different than venture. It's not super different, but somewhat different, but it's happening outside the United States. Certainly the Chinese will be in benefit of this. And if the Chinese wanted to shut down blockchain they would have done it by now. They're actually fostering it, and it's an opportunity for someone on the international stage to get a lever in the United States. So that's one. The second thing is they can enable crypto if they wanted to and I think they really should look at that and I think the banks are central organizations, the World Bank, they're under a lot of pressure. They don't know what to do. So when I talk to people, that's the same answer in so many words, is the government and the regulators really just don't know what to do. >> Well, and Matt made the point last night, Matt Roszak, that when he talks to these banks they're talking about using blockchain and they're very excited because they're going to take hundreds of millions of dollars of cost out of their, you know, infrastructure and their processes that are just not very efficient, and that's going to drop right to the bottom line. And of course they're in the money business, so that gets them very excited. His point was that's really not what it's about. Yeah, that's nice, but it's really about transforming the businesses, and that's why I asked the question about banks losing control of the payment systems. Opens up a whole new opportunities, whether it's financial services, healthcare, automotive. And again, to me, it comes back to digital, which is data, plus machine intelligence plus cloud for scale. You called it. I think at IBM Think, you coined it the innovation sandwich. Data plus machine intelligence plus cloud for scale. Put that together, that is the innovation engine for the next decade plus. >> The innovation sandwich, unlike a wish sandwich, where you wish you had some meat in the middle. You know, this is a good point. Let's end this kickoff and get into some of the interviews here with these really early thought leaders in this new conference. This is the first of its kind, cloud and blockchain, and we're going to certainly continue this in Silicon Valley with theCUBE summit coming up and our events that we do. But let's get some predictions out, because remember, this is theCUBE. Everything's going to be out there, it's going to be on the record, so we can look back and say, hey Dave, remember in 2018 when I asked you what's going to happen? So let's get into a prediction. What do you think's going to happen? I'll start and you can think up an answer. So here's my prediction on this whole blockchain world. Not so much crypto or token economics. It's really two predictions. With respect to blockchain, I think you're going to see an exact movement that the cloud market took, and I think it's going to happen in three phases. Phase one is all the energy's going to go into public blockchain, and public blockchain will be figured out first, and people are going to get excited by the new operation models of blockchain, specifically the decentralization of how that works and the benefits of decentralized blockchain, immutability, no central authority, and all the benefits of blockchain. I think it's going to be very rapid growth in the fixing of blockchain. Speed, scale, that's going to happen very quickly. And it's going to happen publicly. Then you're going to see private blockchains. You're going to see on premises kind of like blockchain. Kind of like the cloud, people have onsite, private. And then you're going to see a hybrid. The hybrid will look like multi-chain solutions. This is almost an exact trajectory that cloud computing took, because blockchain feels like a cousin of cloud or a brother or a sister. So it's related, but not exactly, but I think it's kind of the same trajectory. Public, private, hybrid, which is a multi-chain model, and I think that's going to be the standards. That's going to be the market track. On the token side, I think you're going to see a couple key tokens, like certainly Bitcoin's not going away. I'd be doubling down on Bitcoin under 6,000, like everything on that. That should hit 20,000, in my opinion, over the next timeframe. But there's going to be a lot of token integrations. My token integrates with your token and almost natives and secondary tokens kind of blending together where people with coexist tokens on one platform. So it's just too powerful not to have that happen. So that's my prediction. What do you think? >> I think as it relates to blockchain, I think blockchain becomes, in the enterprise I think it becomes an invisible component of virtually every industry. 'Cause every industry has waste, can improve efficiencies, and blockchain becomes a way to, whether it's supply chain or settlements or shared ledgers, I mean, there's dozens of applications for them and I think blockchain becomes a fundamental component of a digital infrastructure, and it's starting now and I think it's here to stay for many decades and beyond. And you won't even see it. It's just going to be there. It's going to become a fundamental part of how we do business. On the token side, very interesting, obviously, hard to predict. I think that you're going to see continued volatility, of course, I think that's a safe bet. But I also think it's potentially going to get worse before it gets better. I think there's going to be a shakeout. I think you're going to see, there continues to be pump and dump scams going on, the US government's getting more aggressive, a bunch of subpoenas went out, and people are still trying to understand what that all means. So I think it's going to be rocky roads for a while. I think you're going to see a big shakeout, like a big dip, and then I think it's going to power back. I think the crypto is here to stay. And it's very, very hard to time these markets, so my advice is just buy, trickle buys on the way down and hold. HODL, as they say in this world. And I think 10 years from now it's going to be worth a lot. >> Alright, you got it here, theCUBE. We are in Toronto for the first inaugural Global Cloud and Blockchain Summit. Of course, part of the big event here in Toronto, Futurist Conference, which we'll be there live. Wednesday and Thursday, the kickoff is Tuesday night for the opening reception. It's theCUBE coverage continuing for blockchain and crypto markets. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante. Stay with us for more live coverage here in Toronto.

>> Live, from Toronto, Canada, it's theCUBE! Covering Global Cloud and Blockchain Summit 2018, brought to you by theCUBE. >> So, welcome to the Global Cloud and Blockchain Summit. I'm about to hand you over to John Furrier, who is the Co-Founder and Co-CEO of SiliconANGLE Media and Executive Editor at theCUBE, he's about to do a Fireside Chat with Al and Mathew, I'll let him introduce you to them as well. He's also involved in a major blockchain project himself, so he's going to get into that with those guys as well. So, and tomorrow we start at nine, in the meantime, enjoy the evening, enjoy the food, enjoy the chat, and I'll let you go. >> Okay. Hello? Thank you Ruth, appreciate it, thanks everyone for being part of this panel, Fireside Chat, want to make it loose, but high impact for you guys, I know, having some cocktails, having a good time. If there's any questions during, then at the end we'll pass the mic around, but. We want to have a conversation, kind of like we always do down in the lobby bar, just talking about crypto and cloud, and we ended up talking about cloud computing and crypto a lot because those are two areas that are kind of converging, and the purpose of this event. So we really wanted to share some thoughts around those two massively growing markets, one is already growing, it's continuing to be great: the cloud, and blockchain certainly is changing everything. These two important topics, we want to flesh them out, Al Burgio is the Serial Entrepreneur/Founder of DigitalBits, he's founded companies both in cloud and blockchain, so he brings a great perspective. And Matt Roszak, leading crypto investor, entrepreneur and advocate, well known in the crypto space for goin' way back, I think you gave a couple bitcoins to some very famous people early on, we'll get into that a little bit later. So guys, thanks for being part of the panel and Fireside. First question is: we know how big the money is, I mean the money is crypto is is flowin' around the world, and cloud computing we've seen specifically, and certainly in coverage now with Amazon's success, Amazon Web Services, and Microsoft and others. Trillions of dollars being disrupted in the traditional kind of the enterprise, data center area, and blockchain is doing that too, so we want to get into that. But first, before we get into it, I want you guys to take a minute to explain for the folks, just to set the context, the kinds of projects you're working on. Now Al, you have DigitalBits, Matt you're investing and you're finding a lot of interesting token dynamics. So just take a minute. Al, start. >> (mic off) So-- Everybody hear me okay? Alright, perfect. Well thanks for that lovely intro. Yes, my name is Al Burgio, I'm, I've founded a few companies, as John mentioned. Before the cloud there was internet, (light laugh) and so it started for me in the late '90s in the e-commerce era. But more recently I pioneered what's known as Interconnection 2.0, and I did that with the company called Console, for those that may know PCCW, recently it was acquired by PCCW. And with that we disrupted the way networks at the core of the internet were connected together More recently I've founded the DigitalBits project, and now DigitalBits blockchain network, and with that, you can kind of think of that as the trading and transaction layer for the points economy and other digital assets, and you can do a lot of really interesting thing with that, it's really about bringing blockchain to the masses. >> Matt, what're you workin' on? >> So, Matthew Roszak, Co-Founder and Chairman of Bloq. Bloq is a enterprise software company, we do two things, the premise is the tokenization of things, so we think the money identity, new layers of the internet are going to be tokenized. And so, we go to market in two ways, one is through Bloq Enterprise, and these are all the software layers you need to to connect to tokenized networks, so think a wallet, a node, a router, etc. And then Bloq Labs we build, and partner with, some of the leading tokenize networks and applications, so we build a connective tissue and then we actually build these new networks. I started this space as an investor over five/six years ago, investing in some of the best entrepreneurs and technologists in the space build a great network. But I love building companies, and so my Co-Founder and I, Jeff Garzik, built Bloq two and a half years ago. And then lastly, also serve of Chairman of the Chamber of Digital Commerce, so, so if you believe in these new tokenized money layers, identity layers, etc, regulation comes into play. Certainly today from an institutional adoption level, and so if you care about this space, you need to spend time to kind of help that dialogue improve; this technology moves way faster than folks in DC and elsewhere, so. >> And the project that we're workin' on at SiliconANGLE, is we've tokenized our media platform, and we're opening it up to a token model, and have kind of changed the game. So all three of us have projects, want to put those in context, we build everything on Amazon Web Services, so, the view of the cloud, we also cover it. The cloud computing market is booming, we see that Amazon Web Services numbers empower the earnings for Amazon's company, obviously Apple's trillion dollar evaluation those are clear case studies; but blockchain could potentially disrupt it all, and Al, I want to get your thoughts, because even today in the news at Microsoft Azure, which is their big cloud provider, announced blockchain as a service. And folks that are in either the data center business or in cloud know the shift that's happening in the IT world, but no ones really connected the dots on where blockchain intersects, and also, is it an opportunity for the cloud guys, what's the landscape look like, so. What's your thoughts on that, how are they connected, what does it mean, how does a cloud company maintain their relevance and competitiveness with blockchain? >> Well, just pointing on the fact that, you know, today we had that new Microsoft, the Azure cloud, their support and evangelism for blockchain. You know, a company, I think it's very important that this isn't an ICO, two kids in a garage saying their doing something blockchain this is a massive, multi-billion dollar company; and making a decision like that is not trivial, it's many, many departments, a lot of resources, before such a thing's announced. So, that's, not only is it validation, but it's a leading indicator as to this trend, that this is clearly something that's important. And a lot of people, if you're not paying attention, you need to be paying attention, including if you're in the cloud industry, 'cause many companies obviously do compete with, with Microsoft and AWS, so. It may be still early, but it's not that early, in light of the news that we saw today. With that, I would say that, a lot of the parallels I like to kind of, if I was an infrastructure provider I'd look at this from the standpoint of the emergence of Linux when it first came on the scene. What was important for companies like Red Hat to be successful, they had competition at the time, and you had shortages of Linux, let's say engineers, and what have you. And so, a company like Red Hat built a business around that, and they did that by how they kind of surfaced and validated themselves to the enterprise of that era, was partnering with hardware companies, so, it was Intel, IBM, and then Dell, HP, and they all followed, and then all of a sudden, which version of Linux do you want to use? It's Red Hat, you're paying for that support, you're paying Red Hat. And, you know, then they had their hockey stick moment. Today, you know, it's not about hardware companies per se, it's about the cloud, right? So cloud is the new hardware per se, and many enterprises obviously are looking at cloud computing companies and cloud computing providers, infrastructure providers, as the company that they need to support them with the infrastructure that they use, or sorry the technologies that they use, right? Because they're not necessarily supporting these things and making sure that they're always on within the basement of that enterprise, they're depending, or outsourcing, to depending on these managed IT providers. This was very important that whatever technologies they're using in the lab, that ultimately their infrastructure partners are able to support the implementation, the integration, the ongoing support of these technologies. So if you think of blockchain like an operating system or a database technology, or whatever you want to call it, it's important that you're able to really identify these key trends, and be able to support your customer and what they're going to need, and ultimately for them, they can't have a clog in their digital supply chain, right? So, it's clearly emerging. Microsoft is validating that today, you know, clearly they have the data, that they're seeing for their existing enterprise customers, and they don't want to lose them. >> Yeah, but remember when cloud came out; you and I have talked about this many times Al that it wasn't easy to use, I remember when Amazon Web Services came out, it was just basically, it was hard to command line, basically you had to use it, so, it became easier now, it's so easy and consumable. Blockchain, similar growing pains, but, we don't want to judge it too early with the opportunity that it has, it's going to get easier, what're your thoughts? And it has to scale by the way, Amazon, at a large scale. >> Yeah, I mean-- >> So blockchain has to scale and be easier, your thoughts? >> Another kind of way to think of it is, to not necessarily think of cloud computing, but the evolution the internet went, you know, in Internet 1.0, you know, we went through this dial-up modem era, things were very raw back then; great visions we had of the future, like, it's going to be amazing for video one day! But, not during dial-up modem era, and eventually, you know, it eventually happened. And user interfaces improved, and tool sets improved and so forth. You know, fast forward to today, we have all of that innovation to leverage, so things will move a lot faster with blockchain, it did start very raw, but it's, it's moving much faster than anything we've seen definitely in the '90s and in the last decade, so. It's just, you know, it's a matter of moments, not years. >> And I think Al brings up a great point on leverage, because Amazon leverages infrastructure to a point where it's larger than Google, Azure, and IBM's public cloud combined, and so yeah, massive leverage there. And so, when these big cloud providers provide this blockchain as a service, it is instrumented and built on top of their existing infrastructure, not necessarily on blockchain infrastructure. So, it's an interesting dynamic where they're putting it on top of existing infrastructure that's there, but what's being build right now is the decentralized Amazon Web Services. So you have every layer of Amazon being re-imagined, like, and incentivized so you have distributed compute and access and storage and database. And so, what will be interesting to see is that, given this massive opportunity, will Amazon and some of these other incumbent cloud providers become the provisioning networks of the future? Of all this new decentralized resources that get, again, if you want storage, you have to start having smarts to say: if I'm going to go to Sia or Filecoin or Genaro or Storj, compute, etc; you have to start being a provisioning layer on top of that to kind of, you know, make that blockchain essentially work. So, it'll be interesting to see the transition 'cause today the lightweight versions to say yeah, I have a blockchain as a service strategy, and that's like, well done, and check the box. Now, the question is how far in this new world will they go down? And, as it gets more decentralized, as universities and governments, corporations, plug their access utility into these networks, and to see how that changes. That is much bigger than the Amazon of today. >> I think that's an interesting point, I want to just drill down on that if you don't mind, 'cause I think that's a fundamental observation that every layer's going to be decentralized. The questions I think I'm asking and I'm seeing is: How does it all work together? And then what's the priorities? And the old model was easy; got to get the infrastructure, got to get servers, (laughs lightly) and you know, work your way up to the top of the stack. What cloud brings also is that: a software developer can whip up an application, maybe a dApp on a test network and go viral, and the next thing you know they have a great opportunity, and then they got to build down. So the question is: What are you seeing in terms of priorities on stacks, portions of the stack that are being decentralized and tokenized, do you see patterns, trends, as an investor, is there a hotter (laughs) area than others, how do you look at that? >> Well, I think it's, it's in motion right now it's, like I said, every layer of AWS is getting thought through in how to create these digital cooperatives, I have excess storage, I'm going to contribute it to this network, and I'm going to get paid in tokens when a user uses that storage network, and pays for it in those native tokens and so that, coupled with all the other layers, is happening. From a user perspective, we may not want to be going to pick a database provider, a storage, a compute, etc, we're likely going to say: I want a provisioning layer, and provision this and execute this, much like if we, you know, there'll be new provisioning layers for moving money, I don't care if routes through Lightning or Litecoin or Doge or whatever, as long as the value gets across the pond or the app gets provisioned appropriately based on you know, time, security, and cost, and whatever other tendance are important, that's all I care about, but; given the depth and the market for all that, I think it'll be interesting to see how these are developed with the provisioning layers, and I would think Amazon or Azure, the future of that is, is more provisioning than actually going and doing all that at the end of the day. >> That's great. I want to get your thoughts guys on innovation. My good friend Andy Kessler wrote an op-ed in today's Wall Street Journal around, an article around the government, the US government getting involved. You know, there's Twitter, Facebook, the big platforms, in terms of how they're handling their media, but it brings up a good point that with more regulation, there's less innovation. You mentioned some things outside the United States, it's a global cloud, cloud's operating globally with regions, it's a global fabric. Startups are really hot in this area so; how do you view the ecosystems of startups, in terms of being innovative, things happening that you think that're good, and things that aren't good, obviously I'm not a big of the government getting involved, and managing startups, the ecosystems but, blockchain has a lot of alpha entrepreneurs jumping in, you've looked at all the top ventures, the legit ventures, they're all alpha entrepreneurs, multi-time serial entrepreneurs, they see the opportunity and they go for it. Is the startup environment good, is there enough innovation opportunities, what're you thoughts on the opportunity to be innovative? >> Yeah, Al and I were just talking about this before the panel here, and were talking about our travels in Asia, and when we go there it is 10, 100 X of energy and get-it factor, and capital, and the markets are just wildly more vibrant than you know, going to some typical markets here in San Fran and New York in North America, and, so it's interesting to see that when you heat map the world, what's really happening. And you know, people are always saying: oh well this, this FinTech, or InsurTech, or whatever tech, is going to make a dent in Silicon Valley or Wall Street. This technology, this new frontier, is definitely going to do that. I think some of that will get put into more focus based on regulation, and there's two things that will happen; there's obviously a lot of whippersnapper countries that are promoting a safe place to innovate with crypto, I think Malta, Gibraltar, Barbados, etc, and there were-- >> Even Bermuda's getting in on the mix now. >> Yeah! I mean so there's no shortage of that, and so, and obviously this ecosystem outpaces the pace of regulation and then we'll see like the US doing something, or you know, other fast followers to try and catch up, and say hey, we're going to do the cryptocurrency act of 2022, miners get free power, tax-free, you know crypto trading, you know just try and play catch up. 'Cause it's kind of hard in the last year or 18 months we've seen this ecosystem go from this groundswell to this now institutional discussion; and how do you back end the the banking, the custody, all these form factors that are still relatively absent. And so, you know, we're right in the middle of it. >> It's a whole new way, you got to follow the money, right? Al, you and I talked about this; capital markets, you know entrepreneurs need to raise money and that's a good thing, you need to get capital to do stuff. >> Yeah, this is a new phenomenon that the world has never experienced before, it's awesomeness when it comes to capital formation; you know, without capital formation there is no innovation. And so the fact that more capital can be raised, it's the ultimate crowd sourcing in such an efficient period of time, capital being able, the ability to track capital from various different corners of the world, and deploy that capital to try to fuel innovation. Of course, you know, not all startups or what have you succeed, but that was true yesterday, right? You know, 90% of startups fail, but they all will give it some meaningful amounts of checks, people were employed and innovation was tried; and every once in a while something emerges that's amazing. If you can do that faster, right, when you have the opportunity to produce more and more innovation. And, of course with something so new as cryptocurrency, things like ICOs and what have you, people may kind of refer to it as the wild wild West, it's not, it's an evolution. And you have-- >> It's still the wild west though, you got to admit. (laughs) >> Well, it is but, we're getting better at it, right? As a world, this isn't the Silicon Valley community getting better at venture capital or some other part of the United States or Canada getting better at venture capital; this is the world as a whole getting better at capital formation. >> Yeah, that's a great point. >> In the new way of capital formation. >> And I wanted to just get an observation on that. I moved to Silicon Valley 20 years ago, and I love it there, for venture capital and new startups, it's the best place in the world. And I've seen people try to replicate Silicon Valley, we're the Silicon Valley of Canada, we're the Silicon Valley of the East or Europe, and it's always been hard to replicate, because it was a venture model, and you needed venture capitalists and you need money, you need a community, the culture, the failure, the starting over, and just, you know, gettin' back on the horse kind of thing. Crypto is the first time that I've seen the replica of that Silicon Valley dynamic, in a new way, because the money's flowing, (laughs) and there's community involved in crypto, crypto has a big community aspect to it. Do you guys see that as well? I mean I'm seeing, outside the United States, a lot of activity. Is that something that you're seeing? >> So, the first time we saw, well, last time we saw everybody trying to replicate Silicon Valley was first internet, you know, there was Silicon Swamp, there was Silicon Alley, there was silicon this-- >> Prairie. >> Every city was >> Silicon Beach. >> A silicon version of something, and then the capital evaporated, right? We had a mass correction happen. What wasn't being disrupted was value exchange, right, and so this is being created now, it is now possible for this to happen, and it's happening, we're seeing amazing things, Matt said, you know, in Asia. It's a truly awesome force, if anybody has an opportunity to go, they should go, it's unbelievable to experience it, and it really opens your eyes. >> And you've lived through a lot of investments during those .com days and through history now, you've seen a lot of different things. Your observations with the current state of the capital formation, startup landscapes, the global ecosystem around crypto and how it's different from say venture or classic rolling up companies and those kinds of things? >> Yeah, you hear a lot of this, you know, we're in a bubble, it's speculative, etc. And I think that when you look back at history of infrastructure, whether it's railroads, telephony, internet, and now crypto and blockchain, it's interesting, like, if you said: it would take this amount of money to innovate and come out the other end of internet with this kind of infrastructure, these kinds of applications, with these kinds of lessons learned, nobody would sign up for that number, right? It needs this fear, and greed, and all the other effervescence of markets to kind of come out the other end and have innovation. I think we're going through a very similar dynamic here with crypto and blockchain where you know, everything's getting tokenized, everything's getting decentralized. We're talking about fundamental things like money, you know, it's not like we're talking about pet food and women's shoes and airline tickets, we are talking about money, identity, things that will enable like other curves to really come into focus like in and out of things and the kind of compounding of intersections when some of these things get right is pretty extraordinary. And so, but I like what Al said in terms of capital formation and that friction to get from, you know, idea to capital to building, is getting compressed Yes, there will be edge cases of people taking advantage of that, but at the other end of this flow will be some amazing innovation. >> What do you guys think about the, if you had to answer the question with one answer, of what is the high order bit of why blockchain's so important? For me, I see it, from my standpoint, I'll just start, I see it making inefficient things more efficient for any use case, and that's being re-imagined, which is everything from IOT or whatever. Efficiency is a big thing, at least I see that. What do you guys see as a high order bit in terms of you know, the one thing that you'd say blockchain really impacts the world in terms of you know, impact, financial, etc? >> Well, I think with decentralization and all these things that we're seeing it's kind of evened the playing field. It's allowing for participation where parts of the world were unable to participate. And it's doing a whole lot of things in that area. And that's truly awesome, to really grow the economy, grow the global market, and the number of participants in that market in all areas. That's the ultimate trend at what's happening here. >> And your information? >> Absolutely, and I think there's two things, there's this blockchain dialogue, and then there's this crypto decentralization, tokenization dialogue, and on the blockchain side you have lots of companies engaging in blockchain and trying to figure out how it applies to their business, and you hear everything from McKinsey and Goldman saying financial services will save 100 billion dollars in operating expenses by applying blockchain technology, and that's great. That is probably low in terms of what they'll save, it's, to me, is just not the point of the technology, I think that when you kind of distill that down to say hey, for a group of folks to use this technology as a shared services thing to lower opex a trading settlement and decrease that, that's great, that is a step stone to creating these tokenized economies, these digital cooperatives. Meaning you contribute something and then you get something back, and it's measured in the value that this token is, like a barometric kind of value of how healthy that ecosystem is. And so, regulated public enterprises, and EC consortiums around insurance and financial services and banking, that is all fantastic, and that gets them in the pool, gets them exercising on what blockchain is, what it isn't, how they apply it, but it's, at the end of the day for them it's cost reduction The minute there's growth or IP, or disruption on the table, they're all going back to their boardrooms to say: hey let's do this, this, or that, but, if there's a way, my favorite class in college was industrial organization, and it sounds weird but, it was, it kind of told ya like how to dissect an industry, you know, what makes them competitive, who the market leaders are, and then, if you overlay like blockchain networks with tokens, with incentives, interesting things could happen, right? And so that future is going to be real interesting to see how market leaders think about how to tokenize their network, how to be, how to say: no I don't want to own this whole industrial network, I have to engage with some other participants and make sure everybody is incentivized to climb on board. So that I think is going to be more of the interesting part than just blockchain-ifying a workflow. >> Well let's just quickly drill down on that, token economics, what you're getting to. So let's assume blockchain just happens, as evolution of technology, let's just assume for a second that it's going to happen in a big way, it's private, public, hybrid chains, with all that good stuff happening, but the token economics is where the business value starts to be extracted, so the question for you is: How do you describe that to someone to look for, what are the key elements of token economics? When does it matter, when is it in play, and how should they be thinking about it? >> Yeah, I mean token economic design and getting a flywheel going to create a network and network effects is really important. You could have great technology, but Al could be a better marketer, and he gets tokens adopted better, and his network will do better because, you know, he was better able to get people to adopt and market a particular, you know, layer application. And so, it's really important to think about how you get that flywheel going, and how you get that kindling going on a particularly new ecosystem, and get users adoption and growth. That is really hard to do these days because some people don't even know what Bitcoin is, let alone to say I'm going to tokenize this layer, and every time you contribute, every time you take an action, you're going to get rewarded for it, and you're share the value of this network. >> Can you give me a good example of what's happening today that you can point to and say: that's a great example of token economics? >> Well, you see, I mean the most basic one is shared file storage, right? You know, it's like the Filecoin, Sia, Genaro model where, you know, you contribute you know, the unused storage in your laptop or your university data center or a corporate data center, and you say I'm going to contribute this, and when it's used I get these tokens and, you know at the end of the day or week or year you see what these tokens are worth, and was that worth your contribution? And so as these markets develop, and as utility develops, we'll see what that holds. >> Al, you got an example you could share? DigitalBits is a good use case obviously. >> Actually, I'm not going to use DigitalBits (John laughs) just to be neutral. This is one that Matt will know very well, definitely better than I, but one that I've-- the simpler something is, the easier it is for people to understand, and its like oh that makes sense, you know. You know, Binance is one that's very simple, you know it's a payment token, if you pay with some other currency, you pay, you know, Pricex, if you pay in the next few years with their token, you'll get the service at a discount. And in addition to that, they're using a percentage of profits, I think it's every quarter, to buy back up to, ultimately up to, 50% of tokens that are in circulation. So, you know, it's driving value, and driving return, in essence, if I can use that word. So for a user it's simple to understand, for someone that likes to speculate it's easy for someone to understand in terms of how the whole model works, so it's not some insanely complicated mathematical equation, that we can yes we can trust the math. And so in some cases, some adoption is going to just be, you know, attract participants based on simplicity. In other cases the math is important, and people will care about that, so, you know not all things are necessarily equal, and not necessarily one method is right, but there are some simple examples out there that that have proven to be successful. >> That's awesome, one last question, before we open it up if anyone has any questions. If anyone has any questions, if they want to come up, grab the microphone, and ask the three of us if you've got anything on your mind. And while you're thinking about that I'll get the final question for these guys is: A lot of people ask me hey, I want to be on the right side of history, what side of the street should I be on when the reality comes down that decentralization, blockchain, token economics, decentralized applications, becomes the norm, and that re-imagining actually happens? I don't want to be on the wrong side of history. What should I be doing, how should I be thinking differently, who should I be following, what should I be paying attention to? How do you answer that question? >> I think, at the basic level, you know, turn off your phone, lock your door, and study this technology for a day, it's the best advice I could give. Two: buy some crypto. Once you kind of have crypto on your phone, in your wallet, something changes in your brain, I think you just feel like you-- >> You check the prices every day. (all laugh) >> You lose a lot of sleep. And then after that, you know, I think you start engaging in this space in a very different way. So I think starting small, starting basic, is an important tenet. And then, what's amazing about this space is that it attracts the best and brightest out of industry, and law, and government, and technology, and you name it, and I'm always fascinated the people that show up and they're like yeah, I'm in a 20 year, you know, veteran in this space and I want to get into blockchain, it just attracts some of the best and brightest. And, I think we're going to see a lot of experience coming into the space, you know, this has been a, what I'd say a bottoms up groundswell of crypto and blockchain and the evolution of the space. And I think we're starting to see more some more mature folks come in the space to to add some history and perspective and helpin' the build out of this, and to build a lot of these networks. I think that the kind of intersection of both is going to be very healthy for the space. >> Al, your thoughts? >> Definitely agree with Matt. Definitely to lock yourself up and just try to absorb information, everyone has access to the internet, there's plenty of information. If you don't like to read go watch a few YouTube videos, just people explaining the stuff, it's really fascinating, the various different use cases and so forth. You definitely have to buy some, and, you know, whether it's five dollars worth, just go through the whole experience of being able to trade something of value that a few years ago didn't exist, and be able to trade it for something else of value is a pretty phenomenal experience. Then trying to go buy something with it, it's even more of a fascinating experience, I just bought something that used, again, something that didn't exist a few years ago. But, what I would add to that as well, you really have to get out there; if you keep surrounding yourself with people saying aw, this is, eh, whatever, >> It's never going to work. >> It's crazy, it's for criminals, and all that fun stuff. You're going to be last place. So coming to conferences, obviously future's conference you're going to meet a lot of interesting, great people, and that consistent experience, you'll learn something every time. You know, at the end of the day, I remember, I'm sure all three of us remember, with the birth of the internet there was many people that said you know the internet thing, it's crap, it's for kids, you know. And we had first movers, we had willing followers, and then the unwilling followed, you don't want to end up being-- >> The unwilling followers. >> Yeah, the unwilling. >> Alright. Does anyone have any questions they'd like to ask? Come on up. Yeah. We're recording, so we want to get it on film. >> So I have two questions. The first one is for you, Al: Two years ago I interviewed with IIX before it was Console, and I want to know why you didn't hire me? (Sparse laughs) No I'm kidding! That was a joke. Actually, I thought each of you brought up some good points, minus you Al. (chuckles) I'm just kidding. But what I really wanted to ask you guys is: so you talk a lot about this, the tokenized economy and kind of the roadmap and the things to get there, you talk about sediment layer, right, Fiat to crypto, sediment layer, your identity protocols, your dApps, X, Y, Z, right? The whole web 3.0 stack, I want each of you, or I want at least input from both of you or all of you, what are the hurdles to getting to a full adoption of web 3.0 stack, and make a bold prediction on the timing before we have a full web 3.0 stack that we use every day. >> That is a awesome question actually, timelines. You could be, being in technology, being in venture, you could be right, and you could be off by three, five, seven, 10 years, and be so wrong, right? And then at your retirement dinner you could say: I was right, but Tommy wasn't right. So, this is really hard technology, in terms of building systems that are distributed, creating the economic models, the incentive models, it takes a lot to go right in the intersection of all this. But it's not a question like is this happening? No, this is happening, this is like, it's in motion. The timelines are going to be a little elusive, I'm way more pragmatic, I was one of the early guys in the early internet, and you know everything was going to be .com and awesome and fantastic. But the timelines were a little elusive then, right? You know, it's like when was, people are thinking of today's Amazon was going to be the 2005 Amazon, you know, it's like, that took about another decade to get there, right? And people could easily just buy stuff and a drone or a UPS guy would just deliver it, and so, similar things apply today. And you know at the same time we all have a super computer in our pocket, and so it's a lot different. At the same time we're dealing with trusted mediums right? The medium of money, the medium of identity, all these different things they're, they're things that you know if I say download Instagram, and let's share cat pictures or whatever, it's not a big deal, our trust is really low for that, let's do it. For money, it's a different mental state, it's a different dynamic, especially if you're an individual, a government, or an enterprise, you go through a whole different adoption curve on that, so, you know, it is at grand scale five to 10 years, right? In any meaningful way. And so we still have a lot of work to do. >> My answer to that question, it's a good one, your question was a good one, my answer's a little bit weird because it's multi-generational. The first generation pivot was when the internet was born was because of standards, right? The government had investment. The OSI model, open system interconnect, actually never happened, the seven layers didn't get standardized, only a few key ones did; that created a lot of great things. And then when the we came out, that was very interesting protocol development there, the TCP/IP stuff, I mean HTP stuff. I don't see the standardization happening, because cloud flipped the stack model upside down because Amazon and these guys let the software developers drive the value. It used to be infrastructure drove the value of what software could do, then software became so proliferated that that drove the value of the infrastructure, so the whole cloud computing equation is making the infrastructure programmable for the first time, not the other way around, so. The cloud phenomenon's all about software driving the value, and that's happening, so. It's interesting because with blockchain you can almost do levels of services in a cloud-like way with crypto, I mean with blockchain and token economics, and have a partial stack. So think that this whole web 3.0 might be something that no one's every seen before. So, that's kind of my answer, I don't really know if that's going to be right or not, but just looking at the future, connecting the dots, it's probably not going to look like what we've seen before, and if the cloud's an indicator it's probably going to be some weird looking stack where certain sections are working, and then evolution might fill in the other ones, so. I mean, that's my take, I mean, but standards will play a role, the communities will have to get involved around certain things, and I think that's a timeless concept. >> Timing. >> Oh, timing. I think it's going to be pretty quick, I think if you look at the years it took for internet, and then the web, everything's being compressed down, but I think it's going to be much shorter. If it was a 20 year cycle in the past, that gets shortened down to 15 with the internet, and this could be five years. So five to 10 years, that could be the impact in my mind. The question I always ask is: what year will banks no longer be involved in anything? Is that 20 years or 10 years? (laughs) Exactly, so, yeah, follow the money. >> So I would say that in terms of trying to keep your finger on the pulse with things and how you kind of things, see things evolve; things are definitely moving a lot faster, you know in the past you would probably say seven to 10, I'm not sure if I would say five, sorry five to 10, it definitely feels to me that it's five max til we could start to see some of these key things fall into place, so. >> So could you answer the first question? >> What was the first question? >> Why didn't you hire me? (audience cringes) >> We've met before? Sorry. (all laugh) >> I have a question, this is Dave Vellante, Co-Host of theCUBE. And I want to pick up on something John you just said, and Matt you were talking about Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley, it's not about them saving hundreds of millions of dollars, it's really about them transforming business, so. And John, you just asked the question about banks, I want to actually get your answer to this: Will traditional banks, in your opinion, lose control of payment systems? Not withstanding your bias. (laughter) >> Yeah, I am definitely biased on this. But, I mean, I've been in front of the C-suite of banks, credit card companies, etc, and I said, you know, in about a decade, the center of what you do and how you make money is going to be zero. And, 'cause there'll be networks, and ways to transmit money that'll be by far cheaper, or will be subsidized by other networks, meaning, and those networks are Apple, Amazon, Alibaba, you know, Tencent, whatever networks that're out there, that're engaging in collaboration and commerce and everything else, they will give away payments as just a courtesy, like people give away messaging or email or something, as a courtesy to that network, and will harden that network, and it'll be built and based on blockchain technology and cryptocurrencies, so they don't necessarily have to worry about, you know, kind of subtle payments. But these new networks will start to encroach on banks, the banks are not worried about other banks today, the banks should be worried about these new networks that're being developed. >> How many people still have a home phone line? >> That was elegant, I like that. >> You know, I mean there's a generation of people that still like going to banks, they'll keep them in business for a while. But I think that comes to an end. >> I mean, when we covered a lot of the big data market when it started, the argument was mobile will kill the banks outlets, and now with ATMs there's more bank, more baking branches than ever before, so I think the services piece is interesting. >> And also, if you look at even the cloud basis, the software as a service, SaaS space, a decade, decade and a half ago, you would ask SAP, Oracle, what have you, what's your cloud strategy? And they'd be like cloud? That's just more efficient delivery model, not interested. 90 some billion dollars of M and A later, SAP, Oracle, etc, are cloud companies, right? And so, if banks kind of get into that same mode to say well, yeah, we need to play catch up and buy digital currency exchanges and multi-currency wallets, and this infrastructure and plumbing to be relevant in the next world, that would be interesting. But I think technology companies have as much an advantage to do that as as financial services companies, so it'll be interesting to see who kind of goes into that, goes into the crypto ecosystem to make that their own. >> It's interesting. We were talking before we came on and the OSS market, operational support systems is booming, and that's traditionally been these big operational outsource companies would manage big projects, but, if you look at in the first half of 2018, there's been a greater than 20 billion dollar commercial exits of companies through private equity merchants, IPOs, around OSS, and that's where we see operational things happening, CoreOS, Alfresco, MuleSoft, Pivotal went public, Magneto, GitHub, Treasure Data, Fastly, Elastic, DataStax, they're all in the pipeline. These are all companies that aren't cloud, they're like running stuff in cloud, so, this could be a tell sign that potentially the the blockchain operating market is going to be potentially a big one. >> Yeah, and then even look at BitMate, the world's largest miner in crypto. So, they did about a billion dollars in profit last year, did about a billion dollars in profit just in the first quarter going public, just raised a billion dollars last month, at a reportedly 50 to 70 billion dollar evaluation in Hong Kong in the next month, and the amount of money they'll raise will eclipse what Facebook raised. And so I think the institutional, the hardware, the cloud computing, the whole ecosystem starts to like resonate and think about this space a lot differently, and we need these milestones, we need these, whether they're room huddles or data points to kind of like think about how this is going to affect your business and what you do tomorrow morning. >> Any more questions from the crowd? Audience? Okay, great, well thanks for attending, appreciate you guys watching and listening, and guys thanks for the conversation; cloud and blockchain convergence. Collision course, or is it going to happen nicely, Al? >> Yeah, I think it's going to be a convergence, I don't see it necessarily as a collision course. >> And a lot of money to be made on this opportunity these days, and cloud convergence with blockchain. >> I concur with Al, I think there's going to be convergence, I think us most smarter players will engage and figure out their models in this new crypto and tokenized era. >> Thanks so much guys, appreciate it, give these guys a round of applause. (audience applause) Thank you very much. (bubbly music)

>> Announcer: From New York, it's theCUBE covering Blockchain Week. Now here's John Furrier. >> Hello everyone, welcome back. I'm John Furrier, the host of theCUBE. We're here in New York City for on the ground coverage for three days, wall-to-wall for Blockchain Week, New York's part of Consensus 2018. Sold out show, we're out in the open. Open (mumbles) to all the cons here. Next guest is Alex Mashinsky, Founder and CEO of Celsius. Seasoned entrepreneur, great debater on stage, great brawl recently at the Milk Institute. We'll talk about that. But more importantly, he's got a great project called Celsius, welcome to theCUBE. Thanks. >> Thanks for having us, John. >> So, I love we just chatted before the camera turned on about some of the things you've done. You've gotten into a little bit of a great heated panel discussion. With someone who actually doesn't even hold cryptocurrency. He's saying it's all bullshit. >> Yes >> Right, so tell about the story. It was written up by Bloomberg, what was this famous brawl in the Milk Institute? >> Yeah, so the Milk Institute, they've been having conferences for the last 25 years and they're trying to combine the making money with doing good in the world, right? So, it's doing well and doing good at the same time. And that's what crypto is all about, right? And so, they had a panel about crypto with me and Nouriel Roubini, who's like Doctor Doom who predicted the last 15 recessions. There were only two, but they were predicted all 15 of them. So, I was telling him, even a broken clock is right twice a day, you know? He was going at me, he was going at the community, he was calling it a scam. And when you don't own any coin and you have not come to an event like this and seen 8,000 people celebrate this innovation, power to the people, then what are you talking about? So, I was there to really defend the community. It wasn't about me or him. >> Yeah, you did a good job. Well, thank you for doing that. Also, you're on a great project. I've been talking about a lot of other things I want to get to in the industry that you have a view and opinion on I would like to get. But your project Celsius. Take a minute to explain that, because I think this highlights really what's going on. I chatted earlier today about token economics. This is a new way, a new infrastructure, a new capability, a new mechanism that's really becoming powerful, of a network effect. >> Yes. >> So, the old world was DNS. 30 years-old stack on ecommerce, search engines, they're not accurate for network effects, a new dynamic, new data source is happening and it's creating new value, new data. >> Yes. >> Talk about Celsius the project and your value proposition. >> Right, so Celsius Network is basically trying to create an algorithmic cloud-based solution that does everything in your best interest. So, you have to think of it as a basket of financial services that do simple things like give you a loan or allow you to earn interest, give you access to a lot of great financial products, insurance and other things, that altogether do everything in your best interest. And what we're doing is we're enabling 100 million new people to come into the cryptocommunity and enabling them to benefit from all these things both for the increase in the value of the coins but also allowing their money to earn money for them. And today, if you think about banks, right? They take your money, right? You make a deposit, they take your money, they'll lend it to me on my credit card, they charge me 25%, they give you 1%. So, they take all that margin that you talked about. They squeeze all of that and keep it to themselves. >> And they're representing two people. It's like a realtor, who do you represent, the buyer or the seller? >> They're a toll collector in the middle, exactly. They're not adding any value. >> So, the new shift is on user value-- >> Exactly. >> And you see real-world examples of this. The whole Facebook debacle, who owns your data, and Mark Zuckerberg was testifying in front of the Senate in Congress, saying, "No, we don't sell your data." But they license the data and they use it. >> They extract all the value from it. >> They don't actually sell the data, true. But they license the shit out of it, to target you. >> They squeeze every last penny out of it. >> This is now obvious to people. >> Yes. >> That problem. >> Yes. >> Talk about the cryptobenefits, where is this shift happening, users, the power to the people, I get the phrase, but where is it happening? The token level-- >> So for example, Yeah, let's take an example, so most of the people here on this floor, they take their coins, they put them in exchanges, they celebrate the fact that the coin went up 50, 100% or whatever, but they don't realize that they leaving a lot of money on the table, because these exchanges do shorting, front-running, all kind of other stuff that should be illegal, but they do it, so they announce these amazing earnings, Binance announced amazing earnings and a lot of that earnings comes from the money that should be given back to you and me. So, if you think about the credit card company giving you two percent back, this is kind of the same thing. We are basically taking all of that earnings and giving it back to the coin-holders and we're saying, "Don't keep your money on exchanges, keep your money in a wallet that represents your best interest." It extracts all that value and gives it back to you. >> And so, what's your value proposition? You know what, you should say, "Use our wallet, use our system." >> Right. >> And then you represent their currency? >> So, we huddle together, we create a giant pool of BTC, a giant pool of ETH, or other coins, and we lend against that. So, we can do loans to the community, we charge nine percent for asset-backed loans, basically, so you need a loan against your crypto. This way you don't have to pay taxes, you can defer your tax, you can get liquidity without triggering all the tax that today you have to-- or you can just earn interest. So, without selling the coins, you can basically generate five to nine percent income that's continuous on top of that appreciation, you still get all the appreciation of the coin, but you're also generating income. >> So, you can bring contextual services around the crypto-holder interest. >> Yeah, so we find people willing to pay that. For example, other crypto-holders who want a loan, and they pay us nine percent, we give five percent to the community. Hedge funds who short BTC or ETH, they pay us ten or 15%, we give most of it back to the community. But the beauty is that the coin-holder doesn't have to do anything. They don't have to move from this account to that account. They don't do transactions. All they have to do is decide if Celsius Network is doing everything in their best interest or not. And the point is is that the next 100 million people that are going to join crypto, they're not speculators or anarchists or libertarians like most of the people here on the floor. They're people who kind of look at all this, saying, "It's too complicated, I don't know what to do, I'm not going to get in at the right time, I'm not going to get out at the right time." They don't have anyone they can trust. >> So, I'm going to be able to ask the Average Joe six-pack question, "Hey that's all fine, I love what you're doing. Come on, sign me up. But wait a minute. If you put all this crypto in one spot, the frickin' hackers are going to get it. >> Right. >> Because, how do you protect me against-- I heard, see, Mt. Gox was in the-- and all this stuff's going on, I'm worried that it's going to get hacked. Even wherever I put it." >> Exactly. And then Nouriel basically asked me the same question. So, in 10 years since BitCoin was created, there hasn't been a single instance of anyone cracking the blockchain itself. All the theft, everything that happened was because we gave somebody our private key and we entrusted them with it, and they screwed up. Mt. Gox, it basically broke into the exchange and so on. So, we keep everything in cold storage. And it's not ours, we have a custodian that is a giant company that is willing to accept all that, keep it in cold storage and we lend against it. We lend against the pull. >> So the private key's going in cold storage? >> Everything is staying in cold storage, which is the safest way to keep your crypto. It's much safer than keeping it on an exchange or keeping it in a different place. >> And it's all through--it's encryption, it's never safe to--a private key's a private key. Right, I mean, we've seen this before. >> Exactly. >> It's not rocket science. >> But even if you keep it in your home, in your safe, that's not as safe as putting it in a facility that is resistant to nuclear attack and has four layers of security and no human can get into the last room. It's a physical connection. >> I've heard this problem, just estate planning, someone dies, where's his cryptokey? >> Exactly. >> Unlocking, say 30 to 100 million dollars' worth of crypto. >> Exactly. >> It's not obvious. Well, the guy was smart, he put it in lock boxes all around the country. Wait a minute, no one knows where they are. >> But as a custodian, if you show us that you are the ultimate heir and you have the legal representation, then we can handle it, right? We can transfer that. But really, you're protecting it against a hacker coming in and stealing it from you. All the legal ramifications still apply. >> So, let's talk about the industry. What do you like about the industry right now, and what do you think that needs more work on, faster, or behavior-wise, what's your general temperature-taking of the current community? A lot of back-end work being done. Some complaints I heard about the demos, where some people say the front end was pretty sucky. >> Yes. >> But I think that's because a lot of back end work's being done. >> Well, this reminds me of 95 through 2000, I wrote some of the original Void protocols and everybody told me it's not going to work, the Internet is too slow, you can't scale, it's not safe. >> Yeah. >> I hear the same arguments again and again. >> Exactly. >> Today a billion people use Void every day and they don't even know who created it or how it works. I go in a room, I do speeches, right? And I ask, "Who here knows how Void works?" Not a single hand goes up. So, we need to get to the point where blockchain and crypto works the same way, no one needs to understand how it works, they just need to use it and trust it. So, the biggest thing I think holding us up right now is actually not technical. Because there's over 130 different blockchains. And some of them solves the scalability issues and security issues. The problem is is that we kind of have the early adopter phase, but we cannot leapfrog into the mass adoption phase. Because we're still at the early phase of operation. >> Exactly, is this just evolution or is it something specific? >> Well, the applications that we have today are not things that most of the people on the planet can use. That's what I'm saying, like for example, lending and borrowing is much more attractive than trading coins with each other. >> Yeah, it's like the Web, and Web 1.0, I mean-- >> Exactly. >> Search was the first application, and then everyone went to there, check their stock quotes. >> Looking at travel-- >> Travel, buy your car-- >> Exactly. >> Basic Maslow's hierarchy of needs kind of things. >> Yes. >> So, but that was interesting, because it was a whole new way. And by the way, same arguments I heard in the Web. "It's so slow. A mini-computer's so much faster than this AOL thing at 9600 bot modem." But the apples weren't being compared to other apples. It was replacing direct mail where I used to put stamps on envelopes and mail things. >> That's right, look. The bank gives you one percent. We pay five percent. So, that is a very attractive reason to switch from the bank to Celsius. Also, most people don't realize that the power the bank has is because we make all the deposits there. We stop depositing money there, they will have to pay us five percent, because as the money leaves them, they will have to raise the rates, they're going to have to attract you with more interest. So, it's a win-win, the community wins on the crypto side, and we're forcing the banks to do the right thing. >> Alright, I want to get your opinion, Alex, on ICOs. Did you guys do an ICO? How much did you raise? And what's your general take of the ICO market? I mean, certainly, blockchain, I've said this before, takes inefficiencies and makes them highly efficient, and we know the capital markets are very inefficient, so it's a bubble, okay. I have a choice. Tokens or VC, it's a no-brainer, go tokens. >> So look, I've had coins since 2013, I've invested in over 30 ICOs myself, and then when I couldn't find what Celsius does, I decided to start a new company, this is my eighth company as a founder. And so, I raised a billion dollars on the VC side, I know how that world works, had plenty of exits, and here we went to the community, we excluded all the VCs, we did not take money from a single venture guy because this is all about building the community. So, we just closed our round, about a month ago, we raised $15 million. We had 15,000 people sign up, 95% men. And it just drove me crazy, because half of our company's women, I thought that at least half of the people would be female. And I realized how big the problem is that we do not-- I mean, if you look at the floor here, we do not include the stronger sex. So, she's female, exactly. >> I'm promoting it here. >> I agree, I'm a big supporter too, so, I think when you think about it, if we want to be inclusive and we want this revolution to take hold, we have to solve these problems. What is the killer app, where are the female participants, how do we make it global, how do we make it inclusive, and how do we make the user interface and everything else so simple that you don't have to understand anything to use it every day. >> And what's your vision on how the ICOs are going to trend? >> Right. >> More stability, obviously. It'll level out, the bubble will-- I don't think it'll be a massive pop, I think it's going to be a small squeeze, so I think there's enough community involvement that self-governance will kick, in my opinion, but what's your take on the ICO? >> So, we definitely, this is like a Cambrian explosion. So, we are throwing money at everything. So, we're throwing money at good projects, bad projects, it's like a spray-and-pray mentality of the old days in 95 to 2000, we've seen that before. But from this some great companies are going to be born and I think the winners here are going to be bigger than Google, bigger than Apple, because the market is bigger. Money is the biggest market in the world, right? There's nothing bigger than all the money in the world, by definition. So, it's bigger than advertising, it's bigger than the social networks and it's bigger than Apple and whatever they're making. So, I believe that out of these companies, there are several thousand companies here, 8,000 participants, there were 4,000 ICOs that already took place or that are coming to be and out of that you're going to have your giant winners. And obviously Celsius is hoping to be one of them, but it's whoever builds the biggest community is the one that's going to win. And for us, it's all about giving back everything to the community. >> Your mission is awesome, I love your mission, and I love your expertise, love your experience. I think the community really is great to have you being a champion, being a mentor, I know you're doing a lot of paying it forward, great job. What's your view for the young entrepreneur out there, or someone who's got a growing opportunity that says, "Hey, you know what? I'm actually tailor-made for decentralization, I have a network community, network effect, I have all these great things going on, I want to scale." >> That's a great question because-- >> What's the playbook? >> A lot of people come to me and say, Oh, I'm too late to the game." No one is too late to the game. The experts have a six month experience. So, you talk to most of the people here, this is the first event, this is the first show. So, what I say to a lot of entrepreneurs is that if you pick the right vertical, you can very quickly become the best in the world at it. And I think the first phase of evolution here in the blockchain is all about financial products and financial solutions. I wouldn't go after healthcare, I wouldn't go after-- so like, insurance, or solving financial problems that currently have giant toll collectors who collect all the value, like the banks, or like the financial service providers, the insurance and so on. So, if you can solve those areas, you can scale very quickly, because Interen already has six or seven billion people on it, so now you can just bring them all in and haggle on their behalf in the cryptocommunity. >> I feel like I should lie down on the couch and ask Dr. Alex for some more advice. So, I'm actually going to ask you some specific questions. >> No couch here, man! There's no off switch here. >> I'll pass out, so much action going on. I mean, the vibe here is amazing. So, theCUBE, we're doing an open token model, got a great community, we want to grow and be number one at digital media, covering events with a network effect, video and media. We see token as a great opportunity. What's your advice? You're on our advisory team, what do you tell us to do? >> So, the curation is excellent, I think you guys do a great job at pulling the content. And what's missing in this community is really an automated process that kind of asks the community, "What do you guys believe in?" It's very hard for most people here to figure out which ones of these thousands of projects are trending right now, for example. And we can all vote on our app, for example. If you could create an app that allowed all of us to vote during the show, on what's trending and you had those guys being interviewed instead of me, you would have the killer apps. All of us know what they are and are not, but we should vote on it. >> So, use collective intelligence of the data-- >> Yes. >> And make a content operating system-- >> Exactly, use your metadata that you're already producing to do real-time input and bring those guys here, interview them and ask them about why their projects are hot. Celsius, people ask me all the time, "How do I get involved? How do I get involved? I saw you on Rubena, I saw you on this show." And so, we manage to create a lot of buzz around us and there are a few other projects like that, the community needs to get around the good projects and support them, because when we spend a lot of money on bad projects, we're not giving enough support to the good projects. >> You got to close loop that data, make it a community brand. That's what you're doing, that's what we're trying to do here, covering the events. So, we're going to build a content operating system. >> There we go! >> Run-time assembly, whatever the votes-- >> Let everybody vote in real-time, yes. >> Give me 50 times I see the hashtag-- >> Right, and the size of the name grows based on the adoption. >> You would have to have, like, clips instantly available, you would have to have all the metadata-- >> It's all real-time. >> You'd have to have all that stuff available. >> And the community will post it for you, you just do the final interviews, just bring these guys and say, "Okay, you won number one, number two, number three, and you give them the awards. >> Awesome, I love this conversation, even though we're kind of riffing, having fun. But the point of it is-- >> It's a new start-up let's do an ICO. >> Let's do an ICO, we can (mumbles) with that. No, but this is really fundamental for the entrepreneurs at the tech culture, we're talking about basically dev ops. >> Yes. >> Using cloud computing, we can have unlimited-- >> You can spin it up in a few days. >> You can apply automation, AI, that's your point, trust the software. >> Yes. If you're doing it for the community, they will recognize it and adopt you very quickly. >> They'll apply a human curation layer on top of it. >> With full transparency, you've got to show that you're doing everything for the community, like what we're trying to do, right? We're showing, when we tell you you're going to earn 5.1%, you can dig in and see who's getting paid and why they're getting this much money, what's the allocation, every token that's being given to anyone, all the math behind it is fully transparent, right? >> Final question-- >> Try to ask the bank for that. See what they're saying. >> Transparency? Go find another bank. Final question, your summary of the show. What's your take, was it good? Good vibes? What was the content agenda? What was the most exciting thing you saw, what's your summary of Consensus 2018? >> So, Consensus, when they organized it, they were bragging that 4,000 people are going to show up, and that's why they moved to the Hilton from the Marriott. And then 8,000 people show up, the lines were outside the whole hotel, so it proves that the demand is there. Everybody wants to come and learn about it, they want to know why this is so hot, why this revolution is here to stay, so what I'm taking out of the show is that this innovation is just in its infancy and there's a lot of people who are still yet to join. And the best ideas, the winners, have not yet been decided. So, watch out for all those new ideas that we haven't heard about yet. >> And it's accelerated from other trends. >> Yes, it definitely accelerated. >> Alex Mashinsky, CEO of Celsius, former entrepreneur of multiple startups. See, he knows the old way, he sees the new way, he's been a successful entrepreneur, seasoned community member. Thanks for coming on, we appreciate it. >> Thanks for having us. I appreciate it. >> I'm John Furrier here with theCUBE on the ground out in the open, in the community, CUBE coverage here, Blockchain Week 2018 New York. Thanks for watching. (electronic-based music)