>> Announcer: Live from San Diego, California, it's theCUBE, covering Kubecon and CloudNativeCon brought to you by Redhat, a CloudNative computing foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE, we are here in San Diego where we are keeping CloudNative classy. I'm Stu Miniman, and my cohost is John Troyer, and we are happy to welcome back to the program, our host, Dan Kohn, who is the executive director of the CloudNative computing foundation, or the CNCF. Dan, thank you so much for having us. >> Thrilled to be back again. >> All right, and, yeah, so our fourth year doing this show, the big shows-- >> Dan: Nothing's really changed. You just tear right along the same level. One year to the next, you can just confuse them pretty easily.. >> So, you know, Dan, we actually did a prediction show yesterday, and I said, maybe it's my math background, but I look back two years ago, it was four thousand, then eight thousand, now twelve thousand, so I predict Boston must be sixteen thousand because I was used to those standardized tests, but with the growth, you never know, and it is very difficult, you know, we talk about planning, we've talked, this facility was booked before-- >> Dan: Two years ago. >> --the curve really started taking off. So, help us set the stage a little bit, we're getting towards the end of the event, but you know, tons of day zero things, so many sessions, so many people, there were pre-show events I heard that started like the end of last week, so, it's a small city in this community in so many pieces, and the CNCF helps enable all of it. >> It does, and what's fun for us is just that, the community is out there adopting these technologies and contributing to it and growing, and being able to come together, this is always our biggest event in North America but also in Europe and China. It's just a really nice snapshot of the point of time, in saying, okay, where are things, how many companies are interested in having sponsor booths, how many developers are there, how many track, but, I think maybe my favorite anecdote from Kubecon CloudNativeCon San Diego is that there was a, so we offer, a CFP track, a call for proposals that's extremely competitive, only 12% of the talks get accepted. And then we have a maintainer track, where the different providers can have either an intro, a deep-dive, or both. So the deep dive for the project Helm, which is not even a graduated project yet, I mean, it's very widely used, package manager for Kubernetes, but the deep dive for Helm had more than 1600 people inside their session, which is more than we had at all of attending Kubecon 2015 and 2016 combined. >> So, Dan, one of the words that gets mentioned a lot in this space, and it has lots of different meanings, is "scale". You know, we talk about Kubernetes built for big scale, we're talking about Edge computing which goes to small scale. This event, you look at the ecosystem. There's a thirty foot banner with all of the logos there, you look at the landscape-- >> Dan: They're not that big, either. >> --there are so many logos on there. Actually, I really thought you had an enjoyable yet useful analogy in your opening keynote. You talk about Minecraft. I've got a boy, he plays Xbox, I've seen Minecraft, so when he pulls up the little chart and there's like, you know, all of these little things on the side, my son can tell you how they're used and what you can build with them, I would be completely daunted looking at that, much like many of the people coming to this show, and they look around and they're like, I don't even know where to start. >> And that was fun keynote for me to put together, because I did need to make sure, both on the Minecraft part, that all the formulas were correct, I didn't want anyone... But then I drew the analogy to Kubernetes and how it is based on a set of building blocks, hundreds of them, that have evolved over time, and for that, I actually did some software archeology of reaching out to the people who created the original IPFW, Linux firewall 20 years ago based on PSD and then the evolution since then, made sure that they were comfortable with my description of it. But now, bringing it out to Kubecon, CNCF, we have a lot of projects now, so we're up to 43. When we met in Seattle four years ago, it was 2. And so it's definitely incumbent on CNCF to do a good job, and we can probably do an even better one on trying to draw this trail map, this recommended path through understanding the technologies, deciding on which ones people might want to adopt. >> Yeah, I think that would be really interesting. In fact, the words trail map kind of came up on Twitter, today, I saw. And one of the things that struck me was how the first rule of Kubecon is, well, Kubernetes is not maybe in the center of everything, it's underneath everything, but, like you said, 42 projects in the CNCF, many more projects, open-source projects, of course, from different vendors, from different coalitions, that you can see here on the show floor as well, if not in a session, so, without giving a maybe a CNCF 101, what does the path forward look like in terms of that, the growth of projects within the CNCF umbrella, the prominence of Kubecon, are we headed towards CloudNativeCon? >> Well, we've always been calling it Kubecon CloudNativeCon, and we could reverse the names, but I don't see any particular drive to do that. But I would really emphasize, and give credit to Craig McLuckie and some of the other people who originally set up CNCF, where Google had this technology, if they'd come to the Linux Foundation and said, we want to call it the Kubernetes Foundation, we probably would've said yes to that. But the impact, then, would be that all of these other technologies and approaches would have come in and said, we need to become part of the Kubernetes project, and instead, there was a vision of an ecosystem, and the reality is that Kubernetes is still by far the largest project. I mean, if you look at the total number of contributors, I believe it's approximately the same between Kubernetes and our other 42 projects combined. So, and of course, there's overlap. But in that sense, in some ways, Kubernetes sort of represents the sun, and the other projects are orbiting around it, but from the beginning, the whole idea was to say that we wanted to allow a diversity of different approaches, and CNCF has had this very clear philosophy that we're not king makers, that if you look at our landscape document, where we look at different functions like key management or container run times or databases or others, there can be multiple CNCF hosted projects in each box. And so far at least, that approach seems to be working quite well. >> Yeah, Dan, having been to a number of these, the maturity and progress is obvious. Something we've said is Kubernetes is really table sticks at this point, no matter where I go, there is going to be Kubernetes, and therefore, I've seen it some over the last year or so, but very prominent on this show, we're talking about work loads, we're talking about applications, you know, it's defining and explaining that CloudNative piece of it, and the tough thing is, you know, modern applications and building applications and that AppDev community. So, you know, speak a little bit-- You've got a very diverse audience here, talk about the personas you have to communicate with, and who you're attracting to this. I know they put out lots of metrics as to the surveys and who's coming and who's participating. >> Well, we do, and we'll be publishing those, and I love the fact. I think some people misunderstand in the thinking that Kubecon CloudNativeCon is all infrastructure engineers, and something like a third or more of the attendees are application developers, and so I do think there's this natural move, particularly towards AppDev. The difference is that on the infrastructure side, there's just a really strong consensus about Kubernetes, as you're saying, where on the application development side, it's still very early days. And I mean, if anything, I think really the only area that there is consensus on is that the abstractions that Kubernetes provides are not the ones that we want to have regular application developers at most enterprises working with, that they shouldn't actually need to build their own container and then write the YAML in order to configure it. Brian Liles hit that point nicely with his keynote today around Rails. But so we can agree that what we have isn't the right outcome, we can agree that whatever are the winning solutions are very likely underneath going to be building those containers and writing the YAML. But there are so many different approaches right now, at a high layer on what that right interface is. >> Yeah, I mean, just, one example I have, I had the opportunity to interview Bloomberg for the second time. And a year ago, we had talked very much about the infrastructure, and this year we talked about really, they've built internally that PaaS layer, so that their AppDevs, they might know that there's Kubernetes, but they don't have to interface with that at all. I've had a number of the CNCF end user members participate, maybe, speak to that, the community of end users participating, and end user usage overall. >> Yeah, so when we first met in Seattle four years ago, we had three members of our end user community. We appreciated them joining early, but that was a tough call. But to be up to 124 now, representing almost every industry, all around the world, just a huge number of brand names, has been fantastic. What is interesting is, if you go talk to them, almost all of them are using Kubernetes as the underlying layer for their own internal PaaS, and so the regular developers in their organizations can often just want to type get push, and then have the continuous integration run and the things built and then deployed out and everything. But it's somewhat surprising there hasn't yet been a level of consensus on what that sort of common PaaS, the common set of abstractions on top should be. There's a ton of our members and developers and others are all working to sort of build that winning solution, but I don't have a prediction for you yet. >> And of course, skill interoperability and skill transferability is going to be key in growing this ecosystem, but I thought the stats on you know, the searches you can do on the number of job openings for Kubernetes is incredible. >> Yeah, so on the interoperability, we were very pleased to announce Tuesday that we've now passed 100 certified vendors, and of all the things that CNCF does, probably even including Kubecon, I might say that that certified Kubernetes program is the one that's had the biggest impact. To have implementations from over 100 different organizations that you can take the same workloads and move them across and have the confidence, those APIs will be supported, it's just a huge accomplishment, and in some ways, up there with WiFi or Bluetooth or some of the best interoperability standards. And then you mentioned the job support, which is another-- >> Yeah, I want to transfer engineers too, as well as workloads. >> --area that we're thrilled, and we just launched that, but we now have a couple hundred jobs listed on it and a bunch of people applying, and it's just a perfect example of the kind of ecosystem development that we're thrilled to do, and in particular the fact that we're not charging either the employers or the applicants, so it's jobs.CNCF.io to get access to that. >> Great. Dan, you also mentioned in your keynote, Kubernetes has crossed the chasm. That changes the challenges that you have when you start talking about you know, the early or mid majority environment, so I know you've been flying around the globe, there's not only the three big events, but many small events, talk about how CNCF6 mission helps you know, educate and push, I guess not push, but educate and further innovation. >> Yeah, and just enable. So, one of the other programs we have is the Kubernetes Certified service provider, these are organizations, essentially consulting firms, that have a deep expertise that have had at least three of their engineers pass our certified Kubernetes administrator exam, and it is amazing now that we've passed 100 of those, but they're in over 30 different countries. So we're just thrilled to see businesses all around the world be able to take advantage of that. And I do get to go to a lot of events around the world; we're actually, CNCF is hosting our first ever events in Seoul and in Sydney in two weeks, that I'm quite excited for, and then in February, we're going to be back in India, and we're going to be in Bengaluru, where we had a very successful event in March. We'll be there in February 2020 and then our first one in New Delhi, those are both in the third week of February. And I think it does just speak to the number of people who are really eager for these to soak this up, but one of the cool things about it is we're combining both local experts, half of our speakers are local, half are international, and then we do a beginner track and an advanced track. >> Yeah, Dan, you know, I'd just love a little bit of insight from you as to, there's a little bit of uncontrolled chaos when you talk about open source. Many of the things that we're talking about this year, a year ago, we would've been, oh my gosh, I would've never thought of that. So give us what it's like to be kind of at the eye of the hurricane, if you would. >> A lot of criticism, to be honest. An amazing number of people like to point out the things that we're not quite doing correctly. But you know, the huge challenge for an organization like CNCF, where, we're a non-profit, these events are actually spinning off money that we're then able to reinvest directly into the projects, so doing things like a quarter million dollars for a security audit for Kubernetes that we were able to publish. Or a Jepson testing for NCD, or improving documentation and such. So a big part of it is trying to create those positive feedback loops, and have that, and then another huge part is just, given all the different competing interests and the fact that we literally have every big technology company in the world on our board and then all of the, I mean, hundreds of start ups that tend to be very competitive, it's just really important that we treat organizations similarly. So that all of our platinum members are treated the same, all our gold, all our silver, and then within the projects, that all the graduated projects are treated similarly, incubating, sandbox, and people really notice. I have kids, and it's a little bit there, where they're sort of always believing that the other kid is getting extra attention. >> Yeah, right, you can't be the king maker, if it will, you're letting it out. Look out a little bit, Dan, and you know, we still have more growth to go in the community, obviously the event has room for growth. What do you see looking forward to 2020 and beyond? >> Yeah, I would love to predict some sort of amazing discontinuity where everyone adopts these technologies and then CNCF is not necessary anymore, something like that. But the reality is, I mean, I love that crossing the chasm metaphor, and I do think it's very powerful, and we really do say 2018 was the year that Kubernetes crossed the chasm from the early adopters to the early majority, but I would emphasize the fact that it's only the early majority. We haven't reached in to the entire second half of the curve, the late majority and the laggards. And so there are a ton of organizations here at the event who are just getting up to speed on this and realizing, oh, we really need to invest and start understanding it. And so, I mean, I don't, we also talk about there will be some point of peak Kubecon, just like peak Loyal, and I don't yet see any signs of it being 2019 or 2020, but it's something that we're very cognizant of and working hard to try and ensure that the event remains useful for people and that they're seeing value from it. I mean, there was a real question when we went from one thousand Seattle four years ago to four thousand in Austin three years ago, oh, is this event even still useful, can developers still interact, do you still have conversations, is the hallway track still valuable? And thankfully, I'm able to chat with a lot of the core developers, where this is their fifth North American Kubecon and they're saying, no, I'm still getting value out of it. Now, what we tend to hear from them is, "but I didn't get to go to any sessions," or "I have so many hallway tracks and private meetings and interactions and such," but the great thing there is that we actually get all of these sessions up on YouTube within 48 or 72 hours, and so, people ask me, "oh, there's 18 different tracks, how do I decide which one to go to?" And I always say, "go to the one where you want to interact with the speaker afterwards, or ask a question," because the other ones, you can watch later. But there isn't really a substitute for being here on the ground. >> Well, there's so much content there, Dan, I think if they start watching now, by the time you get to Amsterdam, they'll have dented a little bit. >> I'll give a quick pitch for my favorite Chrome extension, it's called Video Speed Player. And you can speed people up to 120, 125%, get a little bit of that time back. >> Yeah, absolutely, we have at the backend of ours, there is YouTube, so you can adjust the speed and it does help most of the time, and you can back up a few seconds if needed. Dan, look, congratulations, we know you have a tough role, you and the CNCF, we really appreciate the partnership. We love our community, it has had a phenomenal time this week at the show, and look forward to 2020 and beyond. >> I do as well, I really want to thank you for being with us through this whole way, and I think it is just an important part of the ecosystem. >> And I know John Furrier also says thank you and looks forward to seeing you next year. >> Oh, absolutely. >> Dan, thank you so much. John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, getting towards the end of our three days, wall-to-wall coverage here in sunny San Diego, California, thanks for watching theCUBE.

>> Live from Seattle, Washington it's the CUBE covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Hey, welcome back, everyone. We are here live with CUBE coverage at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon 2018 in Seattle. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman your hosts all week, three days of coverage. We're in day two. 8,000 attendees, up from 4,000, spanning to China, in Europe, everywhere, the CNCF is expanding. The Linux Foundation, and the ecosystems expanding, we're here with Dan Kohn who's the executive director of the CNCF. Dan, great to see you. I know you work hard. (laughs) I see you out in China. You've done the work. You guys and the team have taken this hockey stick as it's described on the Twittersphere, really up and to the right, you've doubled, it's almost like Moore's law for attendance. (laughs) Doubling every six months. It's really a testament of how it's structured, how you guys are managing it, the balances that you go through. So congratulations. >> So thank you very much, and I'm thrilled that you guys have been with us through that whole ride, that we met here in Seattle two years ago at the first KubeCon we ran with 1,000 attendees. And here we are eight times higher two years later. But I absolutely do need to say it is the community that's growing, and we try and organize them a little bit and harness some of that excitement and energy and then there is a ton of logistics and effort that it takes to go from 28 members to 349 and to put on an event like this, but we do have an amazing team at the Linux Foundation and this is absolutely an all hands on deck where the entire events team is out here and working really hard. >> You guys are smart, you know what you're doing, and you have the right tone and posture, but you set it up right, so it's end user driven, it's open-source community as the core of the event, and you're seeing end users that have contributed, they're now consuming, you have vendors coming in, but you set the nice playbook up, and the downstream benefits of that open-source core has impacted IT, developers, average developers, and this is the magic. And you guys don't take too many hard stands on things, you take a good enough stand on the enablement piece of it. This is a critical piece. Explain the rationale because I think this is a success formula. You don't go too far and say, here's the CNCF stack. >> Right. >> You pull back a little bit on that and let the ecosystem enable it. Talk about that rationale because I think this is an important point. >> Sure and I would say that one of the huge advantages that CNCF has had is that we came later after a lot of other projects. So our parent, the Linux Foundation, has been around for 15 years. We've been able to leverage all of their expertise. We've looked at some of the mistakes that OpenStack, and Apache, and IETF, and other giants who came before us did, and our aspiration has always been to make entirely new mistakes rather than to replicate the old ones. But as you mentioned end user is a key focus, so when you look at our community, how CNCF is set up, we have a governing board that's mainly vendors, it does have developer and other reps on it. We have our technical oversight committee of these nine experts, kind of like our supreme court, and then we have this end user community that is feeding requirements and feedback back to the other group. >> I want to ask you about the structure, and I think this is important because you guys have a great governance model, but you have this concept of graduation. You have Kubernetes, and it's really solid, people are very happy with it, and there's always debates in open-source as you know, but there's a concept of graduating. Anyone can have projects, and explain that dynamic. 'Cause that's, I've heard people say, oh that's part of the CNCF, and well it hasn't graduated, but it's a project. It's important as a laddering there, explain that concept. I think this is important for people to understand that you're open, but there's kind of a model of graduation. What does it mean? >> Sure and it, people have said, oh you mean they've graduated, so they've left now, right? Like the kids leaving the home. And it's definitely not that model. Kubernetes is still very much part of CNCF. We're happy to do it. But we think that one of CNCF's functions is as a signaling and a marketing to enterprise users. And we like the cliche of crossing the chasm where we talk about 2018 was really the year that Kubernetes crossed the chasm. Went from as early adopters who'd been using it for years and were thrilled with it but they actually jump over now to the early majority. I will say though that the late majority, the laggards, the skeptics, they're not using these technologies yet. We still have a ton of opportunity for years to come on that. So we say the graduated projects, which today is not just Kubernetes but also Prometheus and Envoy. Those are the ones that are suitable for really any enterprise company, and that they should feel confident these are very mature, serious technologies for companies of all size. The majority of our projects are incubating. Those are great projects, technically capable, companies should absolutely use them if the use case fits, but they're less mature. And then we have this other category of the Sandbox, 11 projects in there, and we say look, these are incredibly promising. If you are technical enough and you have the use cases, you absolutely should consider it, but they are less mature. And then our hope is to help the projects move along that graduation phase. >> And that's how companies start. Bloomberg's plan, I thinking jumping into Sandbox, they'll start getting some code in there that'll attract some people, they get their code, they don't have to come back after the fact and join in. So you have the Sandbox, you've got projects, you've got graduation, so. >> Now Bloomberg's a little bit unusual, and I like them as an example where they have, I don't know if they mentioned this, but almost a philosophy not to spend money on software. And of course that's great. All of our projects are free and open-source, and they're willing to spend money on people, and they hire a spectacular group of engineers, and then they support everything in-house. But in reality, the vast majority of end users are very happy to work with the vendor, including a lot of our members, and pay for some of that support. And so a Bloomberg can be a little bit more adventurous than many, I think. >> Dan, I wonder if you can provide a little bit of context. I hear some people look at really kind of the conformance and certification that the CNCF does. And I think in many ways learn from the mistakes of some of the things we've done in the past because they'll see there's so many companies, it's like, well there's too many distributions. Maybe you could help explain the difference between a distribution-- >> Sure. >> And what's supported and how that makes sense. >> And I think when you look back at, and we just had, CNCF just had our three-year birthday this week, we have a little birthday cake on Twitter and everything. But if you look at all the activities we've been involved in over those three years, KubeCon, CloudNativeCon, we have a service provider program, we've done a lot of marketing, helping projects, I think it's the certification and the software conformance is the single thing that we've had done that's had the biggest impact on the community. And the idea here is that we wanted a way for individual companies to be able to make changes to Kubernetes because they all want to, but to still have confidence that you could take the same workload and move it between the different public clouds, between the different enterprise distros or just vanilla Kubernetes that you download or different installers out there. And so the solution was an open-source software conformance project that anyone can download these tasks and run them, and then a process where people upload the test results and say, yes my implementation is still conformant. I've made these changes, but I haven't broken anything. And we really have some amazing cases of our members, some of our biggest members, who had turned off APIs, maybe in their public cloud for good reasons. They said, oh this doesn't apply or we don't, but that's exactly the kind of thing that can cause incompatibility. >> Yeah, I mean that's critically important, and the other thing that is, what I haven't heard, is there's so many projects here. And we go to the Amazon show and it's like, I'm overwhelmed and I don't know what to do, and I can't keep up with everything. I'm actually surprised I don't hear that here because there are pockets, and this is multiple communities, not like a single monolithic community, so you've got, you know Envoy has their own little separate show and Operators has a thing on Friday that they're doing, and there's the Helm community and sometimes I'm putting many of the pieces together, but oftentimes I'm taking just a couple of the pieces. How do you manage this loosely coupled, it's like distributed architecture. >> Loosely coupled is a key phrase. I think the big advantage we have is our anchor tenant of Kubernetes has its own gravitational field. And so from a compatibility standpoint, we have this, excuse me, certification program for Kubernetes and then all of the other projects essentially ensure they're orbiting around and they ensure that they're compatible with Kubernetes, that also ensures they're compatible with each other. Now it's definitely the case that our projects are used beyond just Kubernetes. We were thrilled with Amazon's announcement two weeks ago of commercial support for Envoy and talking about how one of the things they loved about Envoy is that is doesn't just work on Kubernetes, they can use it on their proprietary ECS platform on their regular EC2 environment as well. And that's true for almost all of our projects. Prometheus is used in Mesos, is used in Docker Swarm, is used in VMs, but I do think that having so much traction and momentum around Kubernetes just is a forcing function for the whole community to come together and stay compatible. >> Well you guys did a great job. That happened last year. It's really to me is an example of a historic moment in the computer industry because this is a modern version of enabling technology that's going to enable a lot of value creation, a lot of wealth creation, a lot of customer, and it's all in a new way, so I think you guys really cracked the code on that and continued success. You've obviously had China going gangbusters, you're expanding, China by the way is one of the largest areas we've reported on Siliconangle.com and the CUBE in the past. China has emerged as one of the largest contributors and consumers of open-source given the rise of all the action going on in China. >> And we've been thrilled to see that, and I mean there was just the example yesterday where etcd is now the newest project, the newest incubating project in CNCF, and the co-creator of that and really the lead maintainer for it left CoreOS when it was acquired by Red Hat and is now with Alibaba. And he's originally from China. He is helping Alibaba just who's a platinum member of CNCF, who's been offering a certified Kubernetes service, but they're now looking at how they can move much more of their internal workloads over to it. JD.com has 25,000 servers. That's the second biggest retailer in China. >> It's a constituent. >> I was there six times last year. >> I know you were. >> I ran into you once in a hotel lobby. (laughing) >> What are you doing in China? It's huge, we're here. This is a big dynamic. This is new. I mean this is a big force and function. >> And to have so much energy, and I do also want to really emphasize the two-way street, that it's not just Chinese companies adopting these technologies that started in the US. >> They're contributing. >> We were thrilled a month ago to have Harbor come in as an incubating project and that started in China and is now being used across the world. >> Dan, 2019, you've got three shows again, Barcelona, Shanghai, and San Diego. >> Exactly. >> Of course the numbers are going to be up and to the right, but what else should we be looking for? >> So I think the two, so definitely China, we're going to continue doing it there, we continue to be relations serverless, we're thrilled with the progress of our serverless working group. They have this new cloud event spec, we have all of the different major clouds participating in it. The third area that I think you're going to see us that is somewhat new is looking at telcos. And our vision is that you can take a lot, most networking code today is done in virtual machines called virtual network functions. We think those should evolve to become cloud native network functions. The same networking code running in containers on Kubernetes. And so this is actually going to be our first time with a booth at Mobile World Congress in Barcelona in February. And we're going to be talking about-- >> Makes a lot of sense. IOT, over the top, a lot of enablement there. Makes inefficiencies in that inefficient stacks. >> Yeah, and on the edge as well. >> Dan, thanks for coming out, I appreciate it. Again, you've done the work, hard work, and continue it, great success, congratulations. I know it's early days still but. >> I hope it is. At some date Kubernetes is going to plateau. But it really doesn't feel like it'll be 2019. >> Yeah, it definitely is not boring. (laughing) Even though we had much more, Dan. >> Dan Kohn, executive director of the CNCF. Here inside the CUBE, breaking it all down, again, another successful show. Just the growth, this is the tsunami, it's a rise of Kubernetes and the ecosystem around it, creating values, the CUBE coverage, live here in Seattle. I'll be back with more coverage after this short break. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman. Be right back. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: Live from Copenhagen, Denmark. It's theCUBE covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back everyone. This is the theCUBE's exclusive coverage here in Copenhagen, Denmark for KubeCon 2018, part of the Cloud Native Compute Foundation, also known as CNCF. I'm John Furrier with Lauren Cooney, the founder of Spark Labs. We have two of the main players here at the Linux Foundation, CNCF, Dan Kohn, Cube alumni, Executive Director, and Dee Kumar, Vice President of product marketing. Great to see you guys. Welcome back. >> Oh, thrilled to be here. >> So you guys, not to build your head up a little bit, but you're doing really well. Successful, we're excited to be a part of the seeing, witnessing the growth. I know you work hard, we've talked in the past and off camera. Just, it's working. CNCF's formula is working. The Linux Foundation has brought a lot to the table, you've taken the ball with this cloud-native community, with Kubernetes' growth, good actors in the community, a lot of things clicking on all cylinders. >> Thanks, we're thrilled to be here. And, yeah, 43 hundred people is the biggest ever for KubeCon CloudNativeCon. It's actually the biggest conference the Linux Foundation has ever thrown, which is incredibly exciting, and also here in Europe to show it's not just a North American focus. >> And you've got the big North American event in Seattle. What's the over-under on that? Six thousand, eight thousand? >> (laughing) I think we could probably go a little higher. 75 hundred we're going to max out, so we'll see if we hit that or not. But we had 42 hundred six months ago when you were with us in Austin, and so we think a ton of people, you know people joke about Seattle being the cloudy city, because it's not just Amazon there, but Microsoft, Google, Oracle, and IBM all have huge Cloud offices. >> Yeah, and University of Washington has an amazing program in computer science, a lot of tech there. Seattle's certainly an awesome city. I got to ask you, you know, you do a lot of work with the members in the organization. Obviously the success is well-documented. We're seeing that Kubernetes is now going to main stream tech. And still learning, a lot of people learning about Kubernetes, but there's a lot going on. You talk to a lot of people. What's the vibe? What's the conversation like? What is actually happening in the membership organization that's notable, that you'd like to share and get the word out on? >> Actually Dee's been working directly with all the members since we've been putting together our marketing plan. >> So one thing I can do share, in terms of the vibe, and some of the feedback that we have received from the members, is they really, I think it's about what we've heard from all the keynotes and the sessions, it's about really us coming together as a community and defining, what is Cloud-native? And what's that journey? And so as a step towards that, what we have done as in CNCF is we have launched the interactive landscape which kind of showcases a lot of the member work that we are jointly working on. And secondly, the trail map is our attempt to define what is the cloud-native journey. So we've kind of highlighted about 10 steps and the processes to get to a cloud-native journey. And I think the next steps, in terms of the vision and the goal, is to really engage the member community and to start building on that. What is containerization? What is orchestration? Microservices? CICD? And Dan, I think in his keynote, touched upon continuous integration. We really need to figure out integration, testing, development, deployment, and what does that, all that narrative mean, and how as a community we have a common understanding and a framework. And then the next step would again be in terms of building use cases, and also really showcasing some heroes in the community which is our developers. So our developers and contributors end of the day are the heart and soul of the cloud-native ecosystem. So we really want to bring their stories, match that up with our end users. We're seeing incredible growth with just leveraging the cloud-native different types of architectures. >> One of the things I'm looking at, the cloud-native Interactive Landscape map, which is, by the way, pretty impressive. The market cap numbers in the trillions, of course includes Amazon, (Dee laughing) so let's take that out, but good healthy distribution. I want to talk about the startups, because they are going to be the lifeblood of the future. The total funding to date is 4.7 billion of cloud-native compute foundation members, startups. Significant investment. They got to build, they're building products. What do they care about? What is the most important thing for them? You guys, can you share what they're asking for, is there a profile that you're seeing emerge? Because there's a new era coming, right? It's the new guard. The new guard of startups. >> There's incredible diversity of startups there, and what I love about the startup ecosystem, kind of like the open source ecosystem, is they're all looking for their niche. And so there's kind of an evolutionary strategy for it. But it's really amazing to see different approaches towards attacking different markets, consulting specific products and such. One of the neat things about CNCF is that we like to think of ourselves as a commercially friendly startup. All 20 of our projects, commercially friendly open source foundation. All 20 of our projects use the Apache 2.0 license which allows you to create a commercial product on top of it. We are very cognizant of the fact that most large enterprises are going to want support from a business startup or an established industry player and in many cases, both, in order to roll this out. And so we love the fact that that's available if they need it, but they also could download the projects directly and work with it themselves if they want. >> Well I think that's an important point. I always want to highlight, because what you said I think is really, I think, is a big part of the success. You guys do a great job of balancing community, and the role of the people within the community, and the traditional Linux Foundation mission of having great open source. But at the same time, you're like, hey, it's okay to have a business model with Open. And I think this new era is being highly accelerated on commercialization. And I think this is, I think, a unique part of the digital fabric, the digital businesses of the future. And Cloud hits that right on. So that's, to me, a great step. The question I have for you is, how do you keep it going? What's next? Because the bar is high. Now you got to do more. What's the strategy? What's the plan? >> So one thing we can do is, like a highlighter to get back to the cloud-native journey, as a story. Today we kind of have a lot of emphasis on Kubernetes. And it's just not limited to containers and orchestration, and we really want to expand the narrative and the story to address all the 20, 19 different projects that is all housed under the cloud-native computing foundation umbrella. And we really want to bring out use cases, value props, and I think there's a lot to be told here. Like how do we address security? There's a lot of sessions and keynotes today that bring about security applications, testing, CICD, how does it develop a community, can enable all these different amazing technologies. So we've had a lot of talk about it, but I think it's something that startups that I've been talking to have asked me to help or the CNCF in terms of just simplifying these conversations. Like how do we make it simple? And to your earlier point, like they want to start with simplicity and that eventually leads to monetization, and they want to take the fabric from CNCF so they can then start building a narrative in terms of a solution, and what does that mean in terms of value creation? >> Exactly and I actually work with a couple startups inside of the CNCF, and work with them on their business model, and what they're doing, and what is that narrative that they're going to start telling? You know, I think it's interesting because you have all these communities actually coming together in that ecosystem. And when you take a look at that, you probably, you talk about use cases. And I think those are really what the developers are going to be driven towards is their, you know, onboarding to this platform, basically. And what are the top use cases that you guys see kind of across the board? >> So I think there are three main use cases and I think our partner did a great job of summarizing that today. So I think it's primarily security, because that's the enterprise audience, and most Fortune 100 companies are dealing with that. Second, I would say it's about agility. It's about who gets to market first, and back to the startup point. It's about addressing that. Thirdly I would just say it's scalability. I think it's about going beyond, you know, a science project where you just have Kubernetes, or a couple containers deployed in your own QA or staging environments. And people are really thinking about, how do you adopt Kubernetes on a large scale? How do you take it to a production type of environment? And what does that mean? And I think, today, "Financial Times" Sarah Wells, she did an amazing job of just taking us through what it took them in terms of getting from where they were and how they had to deal with, you know, all the challenges and I think she made a great point about technologies can be boring. So I think that was some of the key takeaways in terms of the three use cases that we could build on collectively would be agility, scalability, and security. >> Well, you're also changing the conversation, really. You know, we had the great customer of, you know, Kubernetes on here earlier. And they were talking about, really, how their whole infrastructure, they don't have to worry about it, it's, you know, based on AWBS now and they were phenomenal and, really, what the point was is that, you know, they are not just an energy company, they're actually a technology company and a software company. And that's really what, you know, folks want to be working with today. And are you seeing more of that as, you know, with the startups, is that they have the opportunity to start shifting their companies more in the direction of technology for the end users? >> Absolutely. Yeah. But it is amazing the just range of different approaches that they're taking. But we think there's every level of the stack. We have this, you referred to the Interactive Landscape before, and I will give the quick pitch, it's a l.cncf.io, but it is amazing to see all of the different layers of which these startups are operating. >> And you guys do a good job of breaking down which ones are open source, which ones are not, funding, public, private, category. So, good job. So what's the numbers look like? Dan, I'd like you to just take a minute, just, I know you do this a lot, but just do it on the record, what's the numbers? Members, growth? How many cities are you going to be doing KubeCon in? You mentioned Shanghai before we came on. Just run us through the numbers, inside the numbers. >> So, the first number that I think's the most exciting is we've over 20 thousand developers actively engaged across our 20 projects. And so those aren't users, I mean the users is hundreds of thousands. But those are people who've actually found issues with it, made a documentation fix, or, you know, added some significant new feature in order to scratch the itch that they were having. We have 43 hundred people here in KubeCon CloudNativeCon. These events are always a great check-in. We were together in Seattle just a year and a half ago and had a thousand people, 15 hundred here a year ago, 42 hundred in Austin in six months. What we're very excited to do is head to Shanghai in November for our first ever KubeCon CloudNativeCon China, where we now have three platinum members there, three gold members, just a huge level of engagement and interest. >> John: And a big developer community there in China. >> Definitely. >> Lauren: Huge developer community there. >> And obviously the language issue is a barrier, and we're going to be investing real resources to have simultaneous interpretation for all of our talks and all of our tracks. >> John: In real time or post-- >> Definitely in real time. >> Primarily in English and then-- >> No, we can do it both ways, and so we're telling every speaker that they can present in Chinese or English, and then the question can be in Chinese or English. >> I love that. And it's a cost, but we think that that can really help bridge those two different parts. And then we'll be in Seattle in December 11th through 13th for our biggest ever event, KubeCon CloudNativeCon. Along that journey, we've been increasing members and so we had, I believe, 68 in Berlin a year ago, and we're at 216 today, and of those we have 52 members are end user community, who we're particularly proud of. >> Well, congratulations. I want to get those numbers out in the end, because last time we talked about they had more projects coming, coming so good job. Dee, I want to get your thoughts on the branding. Obviously, CNCF, Linux Foundation, separate group, part of the Linux Foundation. I noticed you got CloudNativeCon built into it, still. Branding, guys, thoughts in here, because there's more than Kubernetes here, right, these Cloud-natives, so what's the, are you going to keep one, both, dual branding, what's the thoughts? >> So, I would say the branding will be defined by the community and the fact that we have 20 different projects. I wouldn't put a very strong emphasis on just having one type of a branding associated with cloud-natives. One of the things that I'm thinking about is I've been talking to the community, and I think it's the developers and contributors, again, who's going to define the branding of cloud-native in general. And I think it's still something that we, as a community, have to figure it out. But, essentially, it's going to be beyond containers, orchestration. There's a lot of talks around Prometheus, we talked about Code OS, Redhead. So I think it's just, you know, a combination of how all these projects work together, in a way, it's going to define the branding strategy. So I think it's a little bit too early for me to make some comments on that. >> The best move is not to move at this point. (Dan laughs) I'm a big fan of cloud-native, but KubeCon... Little bit of a conflict with theCUBE, because people-- >> Oh yeah (laughs). >> But we're not going to put a trademark and bring it on you guys, yet. >> We appreciate that. >> We love the confusion. You're in good company, vice versa. Okay, serious question, Dan. I want to ask you, and Dee you can weigh in, too, on this. You're a student of the industry. You've also been around a while, you've seen many waves. For folks that-- >> I'm not that old. (Dan laughs) >> This is a new wave. You're younger than me. For the folks that are looking at this going, "Okay, the numbers are there. I'm seeing growth, "you've got my attention." And they're still trying to grok what this wave is about, this new modern era, cloud-native, KubeCon, Kubernetes. Certainly insiders kind of see it, and there's a lot of people who are kind of high-fiving each other, but, yet, it's not yet fully here. >> Dan: No. >> How important, how do you describe it to someone at a cocktail party or in the elevator. How do I explain to them the historic nature of what's happening. In your own words, what's happening? >> And it is tricky because, you know, at my kids' little leagues games, if we're just chatting about what we do, I sometimes describe it as the plumbing software for the internet. And it's not a bad metaphor; Linux has also been described that way, because plumbing is really important. Now, most of us never think about it, we don't have to worry about it, but if it breaks, we all get extremely upset. And, so, I do think of our sort of overarching method is to say that the whole way this software is being developed, being deployed, especially being pushed into production, is changing. And it's almost all for the positive, where, in the last decade, you had virtualization, but that was often through a proprietary solution that you were paying a tax for every new application you deployed. And the idea today, that you can pick this software platform and then deploy to any public, private, or hybrid cloud and avoid that lock-in, but get all these advantages in terms of higher velocity, lower cost, better efficiency, the slack of lock-in. Those are really amazing stories that lots of enterprises are just now hearing. There's this cliche of crossing the chasm. And I do think we can make the argument that 2018 is really the year that Kubernetes crosses the chasm outside of just innovators and into the early majority. >> You know, I think that's definitely the case. I've been walking around and talking to people and one of the things that I'm hearing is that folks are here to learn, and there are actually kind of beginners on Kubernetes and they actually want to learn more and their companies have sent them here in order to actually figure out if the technology is going to work back at their home company, which is, you know, ranges from tech companies to banks to different types of, you know, manufacturing and things along those lines. It's really a tremendous, you know, growth. What do you see in terms of end users? What types of end users are you seeing mostly? Or what kind of categories do those fall into? >> So we've 52 companies in our end user community now, and a number of them are up on the stage, including folks like Spotify I thought gave a really inspiring talk today about not just being a user of software, but how to engage with the community and contribute back and such. But the thing that I love is that there really is not sort of one industry that we're focused on or avoiding. So, finance who have tons of issues around regulation and such, they're much more likely to be deploying Kubernetes in their own infrastructure on bare-metal. But we have just fantastic stories. Bloomberg won our first ever end user award. We're very big on publishing, so to have not just "The New York Times", but Reddit and Wikipedia. And then a number of just very interesting consumer-oriented companies like a Pinterest or a Twitter, Spotify, and then the list sort of keeps going and going. >> Yeah, it's impressive, and I got to say, you know, you're agnostic as everyone needs plumbing, right, so plumbing is vertical agnostics. So, it's-- >> Well, in the cliche from Marc Andreessen, that software's eating the world is, again, somewhat true. That there really is not a company today that can avoid writing its own software. I mean, as I was saying in my keynote yesterday, that software tends to just be the tip of the pyramid that they're building on tons of open source. But, every company today needs to-- >> And your point of commercialization-friendly or membership organization, which you've built, is important. And I got to say, for the first time, we heard on theCUBE multiple times, not from the visionary to believe and drink the Kool-Aid, so to speak, like us and you guys and users and other commercial entities have used the word "de facto standard" to describe Kubernetes. Now, there's only a few times in history when you've heard that word. There's been inflection points. >> Dan: Linux, certainly one of them. (laughs) >> Yes so, again, when you have a de facto standard that's determined by the community, just really good things happen. So we're hopeful and we'll keep monitoring it. >> Yeah, and I do want to say that we take that responsibility very seriously. And so we have thing like our certified Kubernetes program about making sure the Kubernetes remains compatible between the carefulness that we do apply to new projects coming in, so we hope to live up to that. >> Great and, Dee, we talked yesterday, going to get that share that information with our team, happy to amplify it. There's a lot of people who want to learn, they want to discover and find out who to connect with, so a robust community. >> We really appreciate you going with us on this journey. >> It's been fun, we're going to hang along for the ride. We're going to be a sidecar, pun intended. (laughing) Well, theCUBE, Dan, thanks so much. Congratulations, executive director. >> Oh, thank you very much. >> Dee, good work. CNCF, here inside the cube at their event, here at KubeCon 2018, I'm John Furrier and Lauren Cooney. We'll be back with more live coverage. Stay with us after this short break. (techno music)

>> Narrator: Live from Austin, Texas, it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2017, brought to you by Red Hat, the Linux Foundation, and theCUBE's ecosystem partners. >> Okay, welcome back, everyone. This is theCUBE's exclusive coverage live here in Austin, Texas for the CNCF's two conferences, CloudNativeCon, which was yesterday, and two days, today and tomorrow, KubeCon for Kubernetes' conference. This is theCUBE, of course, from SiliconANGLE Media. I'm John Furrier with my cohost, Stu Miniman. Our next guest, Dan Kohn, is the executive director of the CNCF, the man who put it all together. Congratulations. Welcome back to theCUBE. Good to see you. >> Oh, absolutely. Thrilled to have you guys back here again. >> So you kind of doing a victory lap here now, high fiving each other? >> Dan: Great hugs. >> John: Great event. >> Laughing: I'm glad it's a good event, and I am hearing fantastic feedback that folks are thrilled to be here. But we sort of describe this moment for the organization and the community as being the end of the beginning. >> John: Yeah. >> Where we now have all the major cloud vendors, all of the biggest enterprise software companies. We have a core group of 14 projects anchored by Kubernetes, but tons and tons of work in front of us. >> And tons of success, so I'm just going to read a couple of highlights from yesterday. There's a lot today. Baidu joins the CNCF, a lot of scaling production application examples, 31 new silver end-user members joined, Alibaba Cloud update to platinum, CoreDNS 1.0, Containerd, Fluentd, Jaeger, tons of news. Obviously, we've been pumping out the coverage. Today, again, more and more great goodness. But really interesting is that you guys have put a frame around this community to allow it to grow, to fertilize the open source vibe, which is all cloud but yet scaled. And you put up a slide I want to get your reaction to that I thought was compelling yesterday during your keynote. It was the flywheel, circle, and it said projects, products, profit. >> Dan: Right. >> And not that you're promoting profit, but you're not hiding the ball, either, saying, hey, you know what? There's a lot of commercial interest in cloud, obviously. We saw AWS' success last week. And that is if you create good products in this community framework, there's profit to be had. >> Right. So first of all, I should admit to plagiarizing that slide from Linux Foundation Executive Director Jim Zemlin. >> And similarly, I think you can look at a lot of aspects... >> It's an open source feature. >> Dan: Yes. >> Free for you to use. >> John: Right. >> Similarly, I think there's a lot of ways in which Kubernetes is trying to build on the success of Linux. And Jim even describes Kubernetes as the Linux of the cloud. >> John: Yeah. >> Stu: Yeah. >> John: That's a good point. >> Dan, one of the things we've been talking around Kubernetes is you talk about scale. >> Dan: Right. >> Talk about scale of the CNCF. You have 4 to 14 projects. People are a little worried when you get all the vendors around here and there's all these projects. It's a foundation thing, it's going to go off the rails. >> Dan: Yeah. >> Customers aren't going to have a voice. How do we make sure we kind of learn from some of the things that other projects have had challenges with in the past? >> And I think that's our advantage, which is the great thing about coming later than some of the other foundations, is we can look at where they had successes and where they had issues. And our aspiration for CNCF is to get to go make entirely new mistakes rather than replicating some of the issues that have come before. And so really from the beginning of CNCF, we had a somewhat unusual and frankly a little bit cumbersome charter where I describe it at times as a three-ring circus. We have a governing board made up of the vendors that are putting a lot of money into the community, but they don't get to run the projects and they don't even get to pick the projects. Instead, they appoint six of the nine members of an independent technical oversight committee, kind of like the Supreme Court. And then we have a third group in the end-user community that I'm thrilled to say is now up to 28 members in it. They appoint one of those folks. We finally got that working. We have Sam Lambert, the director of infrastructure at GitHub, who has just made a huge commitment to Kubernetes and is moving all their infrastructure over into it. Those seven appoint the last two. And so that body, and they just had their public meeting a couple hours ago. They feel very strongly about their independence, about their reputation, that they're trying to make very good judgments based on what they're seeing in the marketplace. >> That's interesting, the three-ring circle. I like how you put it. But let's talk about the end-user piece because I think that's critical. One of the things we were commenting earlier from the Lyft folks was you have a lot of end users who have built some large-scale systems out of their own sheer necessity. >> Dan: Definitely. >> And that is now being donated in. We saw Kubernetes come in with, you shepherded beautifully, went from Google, but you've got Lyft donating an amazing product convoy. >> This first convoy has a huge amount of excitement. And what was fun was, actually, on the same stage that they contributed back in LA in September, Uber contributed a separate project. Now, unlike Uber and Lyft, the two projects are in no way competitive- >> John: Yeah. >> Like Jaeger is really fantastic tracing one. But what they have in common is that they're companies that have had to grow from nothing to extremely high scale and then had problems that they solved. And they wanted to share that expertise with us. >> I want to get your thoughts on this. Because we've been speculating, on theCUBE, we've been kind of thinking, an editorial, but just that this is all good business. Now, that's pretty obvious, right? You're starting to see this kind of contribution, the gifts that keep on giving. These are significant code. >> Dan: Yeah. >> Not like, okay, let's start a little group and huddle and build something organically. You have real goodness coming in from Google, Uber, Lyft, and there's a million others. >> Dan: Right. >> How is that changing the game? Certainly accelerating it. That's really bringing goods to the table. >> Right. I think the whole... >> You have to manage it. >> Well, and for what it's worth, I don't actually manage the projects. And so we do provide a set of services- >> John: The community? >> -to them and we help them, we market them. But one of the unusual aspects of CNCF is that the projects do actually manage themselves. A little bit of guidance from the TOC, but we really are unusual in that sense. And that's one of the reasons the projects have been... >> And what's interesting is, to connect the dots, though, one step further, you're talking about a commercial entity donating massive intellectual property in the open for all the goodness of everyone else. But yet that flywheel is continuing. They're still using it. So it is inherently commercial dynamic. >> Right. And back to that circle, I think really the underlying concept is that companies agree that sharing key parts of their infrastructure has a huge amount of value to the whole ecosystem, to each other. And then they're absolutely eager to compete above that. And so you can look at it with the public clouds where we have now Amazon, Microsoft, Google, Alibaba, IBM, Oracle all at the table. They are absolutely fierce competitors. But they're saying that this specific software infrastructure layer isn't the area that they want to compete. They want to compete on all the value-added services, customer service, et cetera. >> Dan, I wonder if you can speak to how CNCF connects to some of the broader communities out there. Things like Kata containers got announced coming out of the OpenStack group. You've got a serverless track happening here, kind of extends some of where Kubernetes is going. How does CNCF fit into the broader... >> Sure. And it's definitely the case that all the innovation out there cannot happen in CNCF. Most obviously, everything that we do, almost everything depends on Linux. And so that's our parent organization, the Linux Foundation. But we've had a good collaboration with Jonathan Bryce from OverStack. They have two booths on the floor here at the show. And we've spoken to Clear Containers and RunV, the two predecessors in the past. But the part that I'm particularly pleased with for Kata containers is that it is an OCI-compliant runtime, that's another sister organization, and is really designed to work well for Kubernetes. And then they can pitch that and let the market go decide which container runtimes they find the most valuable. >> Obviously a lot of traction here in terms of the sentiment around service meshes and pluggable lock-in textures. That's been very cool. But security came up. So I want to get your thoughts around security, obviously storage and these older models around how to deal with storage and networking. Obviously, always in the action. >> Yeah. >> But security is top of mind for everyone. How is that being addressed? You know, talk is out there... >> Sure. I mean our philosophy on this is that moving to cloud-native and particularly the continuous integration and continuous development that goes along with that is the most important step that you can do to help secure your infrastructure. And Equifax is the example everyone always brings up. But there was a case where they were using known insecure software and they didn't have the processes up to place where instead of doing quarterly updates or monthly updates, you want to be doing dozens of updates per day. And a cloud-native infrastructure allows you to do that. >> What's next for you? Because you've got great traction with both community response, and the community has been absolutely amazing, the quality of people, level has been great, but also at the funding sponsors. You've got a lot of people that are involved. What's next? What happens next? What do you envision happening? What's the plan, and then how do you view that evolving? >> Well, I hate to fall into the buzzword implosion here, but if you go back to the crossing the chasm metaphor, I think we're still very much just in the early adopter phase. 2018 could very well be the moment that we jump over to the early majority. And I do feel like this whole community now has the velocity to do that and that we're on track for it. But as that happens, there's just far, far more people who need to be educated so they understand the projects and the options and how to work with them. And then hopefully they go from just being consumers of these technologies to contributors and that we can welcome them into our community and hopefully get the advantage of their expertise as well. >> I want to get your thoughts on a comment that Stu and I were talking about. Stu, you and I were talking about the notion of value creation above the stack, and then how Kubernetes, although some could say being commoditized, but it's also creating value because with that consistency of Kubernetes, you can now create value. So we believe, and I want to get your reaction to this, because we think a whole new ecosystem dynamic will emerge of a new kind of ecosystem. And if this new app developer combined with software engineering, which is really going on, you're talking about the cloud, the app developers will just build in value, that value creation will be rewarded. That's where monetization will be happening. >> And if I could build off that... >> John: Yeah. >> Dan, I loved one of your opening comments. You quoted, "exciting times for boring infrastructure, "maybe too exciting." So this week we've been teasing out there's a lot of work to make that infrastructure boring. You've got everybody on this floor, the CNCF board, lots of new projects making that. Where the action is and what this is going to create is that application monetization and the speed and agility of being able to create these cool new cloud-native applications out there. So it's interesting dynamic, spans broad pieces of this, layers of the stack there. >> Yeah. Well, I will point out that there was an odd level of unanimity of just a ton of different leaders in the community, in keynotes from Craig McLuckie and Chen Goldberg and others where they all agree that Kubernetes is not by any means the ultimate answer or the final answer. I think everybody now expects to see Kubernetes as a core aspect of the infrastructure for software for the next decade or more. But there's a belief that there's a whole ton of value that needs to be added above it, particularly to try and show for a regular application developer who just has a PHP app or no-GS microservices or anything else what's the easiest way to go from having a piece of software and deploying it effectively. >> Dan, so it's interesting. You watch the people on the outside. They're like, oh, look at Kubernetes. They're all holding hands and saying Kumbaya. We know there's some spirited debates that happen- >> Dan: Definitely. >> In the code, some projects that are sometimes competing up there. Why has the community come together, and where are some of the areas that we still need to work on and improve to help customers going forward? >> And again, I think they have the big advantage of having watched other communities that didn't value community and consensus and the ability to work through their issues. And so thankfully, we just have a ton of really capable engineers who also have some of those social or personal qualities that they care about working these things out. And to date, at least, I think most of those disagreements have been settled pretty amicably and in a positive direction. I think there's still huge swathes of this space that are still up in the air. Storage is an obvious one where there's a ton of work going on in a storage working group of CNCF. Serverless is another where I think everyone agrees that the application deployment model of AWS Lambda is really exciting and has things that people should replicate and should be brought over to Kubernetes. But how that should happen, what the software is, et cetera, there's still, in fact, we have our first serverless track today here at KubeCon where several different competing approaches are all talking about what they'd like to do. >> Awesome stuff. And you also announced some dates for next year, December 11 and 13 in Seattle. >> Dan: Yes. >> Okay. >> Dan: That's a year from now. >> November 14 and 15 in Shanghai. >> Now, you and I met in Hangzhou in the lobby, which was just amazing. But I certainly am hoping to convince you to go back to China with us. This will be our first event... >> I got a three-year visa. >> Good, yeah, that's the exactly right one. But this will be our first event in China, which I think is just a huge opportunity. We now have Baidu, Tencent, Huawai, ZTE, a number of startups. There's just so much excitement for this space over there that we're really excited to satisfy. >> Stu: And Copenhagen in May. >> And that's the last one. Thank you. May 2 to 4 in Copenhagen, and we're really excited for the event, to bring it to Europe and the rest of the world. >> Okay. So you've been working like a dog, you've been working hard. I've seen you in China. It's serendipitous. But it's not without being mentioned that this has been great effort by your team and the Linux Foundation and Jim and the whole team. But congratulations. Are you having a pinch me moment? I know it's too early to do a victory lap. >> But you've got to be pretty excited. >> Yeah. It really has been a great thing for the foundation that we sort of accomplished many of our 2018 and 2019 goals this year. But I'm sure we're going to find plenty of stuff to do next year. >> And your goal for the next 6 to 12 months, what's on your top three to-do's, continue the momentum? Share your API for... >> Yeah. What's great is that we really have plenty of members. We'd always like to add new ones and serve the ones we have better. But right now, the focus is really about providing better services to our projects. All of them feel overworked. They would love help on documentation, on marketing, on messaging about it, and some of them need help with testing development and other things. So that's really what we're buckling down on. >> Great community are going to test them, being here on the ground, personally present at creation. And I was standing there with J.J. and Lew Tucker, OpenStack three years ago, talking about Kubernetes. We were kind of ripping. We couldn't have imagined, then, obviously, they bolted it on last year with your event. Now second year here, huge community... >> But you have 4,100 folks here, is more than the previous four events combined. >> Yeah, awesome. >> So it really is exciting. >> TheCUBE, always on the ground. And sometimes the squirrel finds a nut. We found a cloud-native foundation, part of the Linux Foundation. CNCF, Cloud-Native Compute Foundation, really a new, growing, and relevant community for cloud and a new way to do software and reimagine the future from software engineering to full application development, a new way. This is theCUBE's coverage, and we are here live in Austin. More live coverage after this short break. We'll be right back. [Techno Music]

>> Live from San Francisco. It's theCUBE. Covering DevNet Create 2017. Brought to you by Cisco. >> Welcome back everyone. We're here live in San Francisco for theCUBE's exclusive two days of coverage for Cisco Systems' inaugural event called DevNet Create extension. DevNet their classic developer program, for the Cisco install base of network routers. Now going to the cloud, native, going to the developer where dev-ops and the enterprise are connecting. I'm John Furrier, my cohost Peter Burris. Next is Dan Kohn, who is the Executive Director of the Cloud Native Compute Foundation, CNCF. Formerly known as Kubecon. Which is the event, Kubecon.io. Dan, great to see you. Executive Director, how's business, is going good? >> Fantastic! (John laughs) Yeah, six months ago we chatted at our last event in Seattle. And it's just amazing to see the progress since then. Projects members. >> It's been a whirlwind. Even I can't keep track. You guys are announcing all these new projects. What's the current count of projects that you guys have under the Cloud Native Compute Foundation? >> So we're up to 10. I should definitely start with the fact that Kubernetes is the anchor 10 in our original project. In a lot of ways, foundation was setup around that. And that project is just continuing to do incredibly well. Where it's one of the highest velocity projects in the history of open source. In terms of number of authors, number of commits, poll requests, issues. But now we have a constellation of other projects that are in support of that one. It can be used in a lot of different ways. >> John: Yeah. >> That we've been adding in. >> We had Craig McLuckie on earlier. Now he's with Heptio. Again, when he was doing that work, at Google, back in the days with what's his name from Microsoft now. >> Peter: Brendan Burns. >> Brendan Burns, yeah. >> Now it's an interesting question, where you say, oh, wait a minute, the three sort of key people behind Kubernetes, Craig McLuckie, Joe Beda, who's his co-founder at Heptio, then Brendan Burns, they all left Google. Is this a bad sign for the project and the technology? >> John: No, I don't think so. >> And we would say it's a spectacularly good sign. Now, if they had left and said, ah you know, containers, I'm going to do virtual machines. But in fact they said, there's such an enormous market for this. And to have Microsoft and Azure step in and say, we really want to invest in this space and we want to bring on one of the co-founders, Brendan. And for the other two co-founders, say, hey Google is making a huge investment. But we also think there's an opportunity for independent venture funded startup. >> Craig is completely passionate about this because there is an interoperability ethos that's always been around the open web. >> Dan: Umhmm. >> And certainly open source has the same ethos. Cloud Native brings an interesting thing, and it's clear now to people that there's not going to be one cloud winning them all. >> It's a multi-could world. >> Dan: Right. >> How is the Cloud Native Foundation floating in the open source world? Is it gravitating towards more infrastructure, more edge, software edge? Are you guys kind of in the middle? Are you guys the glue layer? How do you view that? >> Sure. So one way of looking at what we're doing is, helping to build a stack of software. That allows you to run your applications either on bare metal in your own data center or on any of the public clouds. Or hybrid solution where you're mixing back and forth. But the key idea is that all the core parts of that are open source. They're supported by multiple different vendors. And what that means is, you get to avoid lock-it. So today, Amazon web services has some of the most extraordinary engineering. They have all these great services that make it very easy to go onboard. But if you build your whole architecture around that, then you're stuck with AWS forever. And when time goes up, time to renegotiate your contract in a year or two, you're back again and don't have a lot of leverage. Where we think AWS is fantastic platform to run Kubernetes, to run our other projects on top of. But we don't think you want to lock-in to those services to such a degree. >> Okay, when I'm on, first of all, pretend I'm Amazon, I'm a competitive strategist, lock-in, I got to get you locked-in. I'm just going to run Kubernetes on Amazon. Why don't I just do that? >> We think that's a great solution. >> John: You do? >> Heptio and lots other folks make it very easy to run Kubernetes on Amazon. But we also think you should at least look at Kubernetes on Bluemix, on Google, on Azure. And know that in the future when you're negotiation comes up, even if you never leave, you at least threaten to leave. That you're not locked into that one vendor forever. >> So if you think about how the cloud industry structure is starting to layout, you knew we were going to have IAAS. >> Dan: Umhmm. >> SAS has been around for quite sometime. >> Dan: Right. >> The big question is what happens with that platform as a service. >> The developer world. >> Dan: Yeah. Some people think it's going to end up in the IAS element. >> Dan: Umhmm. Some people end up in the SAS. If it ends up in the IAS, you got the lock-in. Do you see a world going forward where developers have their own place, where they go and build and create software independent of either target but then add it to the various platforms. Is that a direction that you think this is all going to end up in? >> I do. Our view is that Heroku, which really invented this platform as a service concept or popularized it. You do, get push Heroku and magically your application's up. And then Cloud Foundry which came along and created a open source version of that. Those were two building blocks. But the Cloud Native essentially taking that scenario and saying, hey, that continuous integration, continuous deployment pipeline, that ability to deploy your software dozens of times per day, that's an absolute table ante for being a modern company. Not just a software company but arguably every company today needs to be doing software development like that. And then Cloud Native is a whole set of infrastructure around that to allow you to, not just have that environment in development but also to push it into production. >> So compare and contrast, based on your vision >> Dan: Umhmm. >> of how things are going to play out. A developer spends her time today doing this, and in three years, she's going to spend her time doing that. Kind of give us a sense of how >> Dan: Sure. >> you think it's going to play out. >> The simplest way to say it is that, Docker came along a few years ago, and was incredibly transformative technology for software development. It solved this really basic problem that, you hire a new employee and does it take her an entire day or entire week to get her environment together. Or can she just copy over the document container and be ready to go. And so I would argue it had the fastest uptake of any developer technology in history. But now when you have all those pieces running, okay, that's great in development, how do you get it in production? And my goal is that in a few years, hopefully much sooner, that those developers that are getting the container, they're getting the different pieces of microservices working. And then it's this tiny little YAML file that just says, here's the requirements for my application, here's what kind of redundancy it needs, what is backend databases, other sorts of things. And they're deploying it up. For most developers they can get out of that business of dev-ops. Of having to worry about all those issues. Your dev-ops team can be so much more efficient cuz Kubernetes and the related platform really enables that. >> I got to ask you, I just Tweeted cuz I had, make sure I captured it. I'm blown away by your success on the sponsorship participation. And usually it's a sign of opportunity. Because there's money making to be made, having the big vendors in there. But the growth of Kubernetes as you mentioned, all the success, we're well aware of that. But you got a lot going on. You're like got the tiger by the tail, your hair's blown back, you're running as hard as you can. Why are you guys successful? What is your gut? As executive director, you got to have the 20 mile stare but you also implement the here and now. >> Dan: Sure. >> How are you rationalizing the success? >> The most important point is, there's not some sort of magic formula, that CNCF has done or the Linux Foundation. And we're just so much better promoting or marketing it. At the end of the day, it really comes down to the developers behind Kubernetes. They've built a tool that tons and tons of people want to use. And that leverages 15 years of work that Google has done on containerization. Work that IBM and Docker and all of our other member companies, RedHat, have put together. And now, I think tiger by the tail is the right analogy. That we just happen to be, luckily, do have the technology and the constellation technology that a lot of folks want to do. The biggest thing we're trying to deal with is, some of the challenges around scaling. There's over 17 hundred authors. Individual developers contributed to Kubernetes in the last 12 months. Trying to figure out how can we get good reviews of all their codes, better documentation. >> There is a secret formula if you look at it. In away, relevance is one of them. >> Dan: Umhmm. >> Being relevant and being an awesome technology. But what I want get your thoughts in is, I looked at Kubernetes right out of the gate and said, hmm, will this be a MapReduced moment for Google. >> Dan: Yeah. >> And interesting enough, they didn't pull the same move. They didn't just let Cloud Air, walk away with or someone. >> Dan: Right, exactly. >> They made sure that if they preserved it. Google kind of let MapReduced >> Dan: Yeah, I think-- >> on the side of the road. >> Dan: No, no, I think this-- >> Cloud Air ran with it. >> Google had something that they replaced it with. I mean the -- >> SPAN is pretty damn good. >> And that's an interesting thing because in a world of strategy, across technology, and this is related to this, is that it used to be, you define a process, and then let's call it the end level process, and then you would go off and you make it obsolete because you had something that was more efficient, more effective. And then you license the old technology. And that way, the industry built capacity around the old technology and you had the new, more efficient technology that drove your business forward. And I think that, I'm not saying that's exactly, I'm not saying that Google did that, that's the tremendous >> Google knew. >> effect it will have. >> John: I have sources that tell me that. I investigated this story three years ago or maybe four, maybe three years ago. Google had conversations going up to the Eric Schmidt level, and Larry Page level, do we keep Kubernetes, do we open source it? And it went all the way to the top. And they almost wanted, they were afraid of MapReduced. Because MapReduced was a lost opportunity. Now they made it up but-- >> Now I would argue that there's a slightly subtler decision they had to make, where they have this internal system board, that is just tons of engineering and analysis and improvement has gone into it. They wrote Kubernetes as essentially next generation version of that. I think they kind of had four paths. Craig McLuckie was one of the key people behind that. Where they could have made it a proprietary service that if you're a customer of Google cloud, you get access to it. That's essentially what Amazon and Elastic Container Services today. Or they could have said, hey, we're going to open source it but we're still keep control of it. Essentially that's the path they went with the Go language. Where lots of people use it, lots of people contribute to it, but it's Google who decides at the end of the day, which direction it goes. Or they could have gone and created a Kubernetes Foundation. And if they'd gone to the Linux Foundation and said, we want to create a Kubernetes Foundation, they absolutely could have and that would have been a home for it. But when you look at all the complementary technologies that have come in, they would never have gone into a Kubernetes Foundation. So instead, they really chose the most open path of saying, no we want to have a Cloud Native Computing Foundation. Have Kubernetes be the anchor tenant for it. But then have a place that companies like Mesophere with Mesos and Docker with Docker Swarm and other partners can come in and agree on something. So today, we're really pleased to announce the container network interface, just got accepted as our 10th project. And that's used by those and also by Cloud Foundry. And then they can disagree on others, about the orchestration- >> So it's a liberating move, really, if you think about it. Because at the time this happened, there was a lot of land grab talk going on. >> Dan: Umhmm. >> Until Amazon was winning big the hockey stick was going up. >> Dan: Right. You saw the numbers, and financial performance. But there was a fear of lock-in. To your point. >> Dan: Right, exactly. >> Then Kubernetes provides a nice layer. And you guys as a group, are looking holistically and saying, choice and multi-cloud. Is that the vision? >> Definitely. But, I mean you can see, strategically why Google decided to do it. Because if you pick an open source platform, and say, hey, this is the best of breed approach. Now, you're actually willing to evaluate the cloud on what the prices are, the supplementary services, et cetera. Where before that, you might have just said, ah, AWS is the safe service, I'm going just go with that. >> But Kubernetes is an invasive technology. And I don't mean that in a bad way. (Dan laughs) >> When you decide to move with Kubernetes, you are foreclosing other options at your disposal. And so, I think what you're saying is that, Google wanted to ensure that it remained a consistent coherent thing. While at the same time, making it obvious to all those around them that also wanted to invest in it, that their investments were going to be safe and sound going forward. >> I think that's fair but on the other hand, I do want to say that very few companies have moved their entire business and all of their IT over to Kubernetes. >> Peter: Oh, I'm not saying that they would. >> We do recommend that they start with a stable service. >> Peter: But Meso and some of those other companies are now investing in Kubernetes as a platform. Or making a bet on Kubernetes, want to make sure that their bets are as good as their company is. >> Sure. But there are other orchestration plateforms still. So Kubernetes has plenty of competition. And our biggest competition of course is Enertia. Of folks not changing into anything. >> I got to ask you a question. So Leonard, our producer is just telling me, Kubernetes is boring per Craig McLuckie. So Craig said earlier in theCUBE today, Kubernetes needs to be boring. He said his biggest problem with Kubernetes is it's too exciting right now. >> Dan: That's great. Now what he means by that is, he's kind of making a play on words but his point is, it should be obstracted away. >> Dan: Yeah. In terms of Kubernetes. But that's a problem you have. It's too exciting. >> Dan: Umhmm. What's your reaction to his comment that Kubernetes needs to be boring. >> He and I did a little Google trends comparison of Kubernetes and TensorFlow, which is another open source project out of Google. TensorFlow is something like three or four acts. And artificial intelligence is just so much more interesting and exciting. And yeah, I certainly would love to see a situation. We have this metaphor for Linux, with the Linux Foundation. That we describe it as plumbing. Where it's so intrinsic to almost every piece of technology in existence. And like plumbing, you'll get very upset when if it stops working. And you'll know it and you'll complain. But there's a huge piece of what we're trying to do which is the infrastructure to make things work. >> Here's an idea. Marketing idea. Just call it AI for containers. >> Dan: That's good. >> It'll be the hottest thing on the planet. >> Dan, great to-- >> Peter: Probably be more be more exciting. >> Dan, great to see you. Congratulations on your success. >> Yeah. So I do want to just make a quick mention December sixth through eighth is CloudNativeCon and KubeCon. It's our biggest annual conference. We're looking to actually triple in size from Seattle to three thousand people or more. We have every expert coming in. Michelle Noorali and Kelsey Hightower are the co-chairs and are going to be speaking there. We would love to see a lot of you guys. >> John: In Austin. >> In Austin. >> We hope you'll be there. >> TheCUBE will be there. >> We'll definitely be there. >> Dan: As well to ah, >> We've been to the inaugural >> Dan: Exactly. >> show for KubeCon and Cloud Native conference. We'll defintely be there. December sixth through the eighth, in December, in Austin. Great time of the year to be in Texas. Congratulations on all your success. And as Kubernetes and nine other projects continue to get traction. Still exciting times. And as they say, we live in interesting times. (Dan laughs) This is theCUBE with more interesting, exciting, not boring stuff coming back from the inaugural event here at Cisco DevNet Create. I'm John Ferrier, Peter Burris. Stay with us.

(upbeat music) >> Narrator: Live from the Seattle, Washington, it's the Cube on the ground, covering KubeCon 2016. Brought to you by the Linux Foundation and Red Hat. Here's your host, John furrier. >> Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Cube special on the ground coverage of KubeCon or CloudNativeCon, this is an event. Seattle booming with attendance, great growth from last year, and we are here in Seattle covering it all. And my next guest is Dan Kohn, who's the executive director of the CNCF, which stands for the Cloud Native Computing Foundation. It's a mouthful, but it's super important part of the Linux foundation. Welcome. >> Thanks so much, really glad to be here. >> Yeah, so big fan of what's happening here. One, the event's awesome. Great uptake from last attendance from last year. >> Yeah, unfortunately, maybe a little too much. We're a little crowded in the foyer and a little bumping on the way into getting in the restroom and everything, but it's one of the challenges of fast growing technology space is trying to figure out a year ahead of time, what size space to get? >> And how many people to squeeze in without getting the fire marshal on your back. >> Exactly. >> Certainly this is going to be a great one because the hallway conversation has been spectacular, and normally the excitement's pretty strong at tech events like this because they're developers, so there's a lot of collaboration going on. But you have a kind of an air of really forward-thinking entrepreneurial kind of thinking going on here. And I haven't seen that in a while and I think that's one of the main things that we're seeing that came out of the containers, Kubernetes. I would say the unveiling and the clarity of at least a path. >> Yes, absolutely. >> And the importance of that. So that's been super important to (indistinct) community. Now making that a part of a foundation, an open source, has challenges. So that's what you're doing. So give us the plan, what's the strategy? >> Sure, so I'm actually relatively new to the space. I just became an executive director five months ago, and this is somewhat of a coming out party. This is the first big event that we've run as the first CloudNativeCon. And it's really just been extraordinary. I'm thrilled to see the range where we're getting some of the biggest companies in the world of the Cisco's, and Wallway's, and IBM's, Red Hat's and such. And then tons of startups, and a lot of real diversity in the end-users as well. Of startups looking at Kubernetes, massive companies, just saw a great presentation from Ticketmaster, about them having 50 year old technology that they're moving forward and putting into containers. >> So in the growth of the market, one of the challenges is to kind of, you know, not so much be a chess player, but be a gardener if you will, kind of like let the flowers bloom, if you will. And that's a challenge cause opensource is very opinionated, but there's also a lot of passion involved. So how do you look at, what's your philosophy on establishing kind of a rules of engagement? How do you foster the innovation? Certainly the market drivers are for more growth, but people have inhibitors on the enterprise that we hear about, support and these things of that nature. So how do you enable that? What's your strategy and what's your view? >> Sure, so CNCF is a very new organization. And my goal on it is to look at a lot of the giants that have come before us of like the Internet Engineering Task Force and the Apache Software Foundation and OpenStack. And my goal is to try and learn from them and ideally to try and make entirely new and different mistakes as opposed to the ones that they may have made in the past. So one of the things that's a little unusual in our setup is that we very much separate all of the technology decisions from the business decisions. We have a governing board of a bunch of the biggest technology companies in the world, the ones I mentioned, plus Google and Samsung just joined, which we're very excited about, a number of others. But they can't actually adopt projects in. So we have a separate group called the technical oversight committee, which is some of the top architects in the cloud space. So we have folks like Ben Hindman of Mesosphere, and Solomon Hykes of Docker, Brian Gantt of Google, and six others, and that's the group that looks at new projects and evaluates them and talks to them and decides whether to adopt them into CNCF or not. And we feel that that separation is really critical so that the technology decisions are not being biased by the business one. >> Yeah, it's always hard to foster growth in the innovation around business models, conflicting with the technology enablement, that's really key. Great to see that decoupling. So on the business model side, thoughts on things that you've learned and observed, learnings that you've had in your past career and applying that now, I mean, the Bait, the rage is on, Open Core to Apache, GPL, you saw some things going on there. So there's like all kinds of different approaches. Are there any thoughts of the winds blowing any which way or the other? >> Sure, I was previously the chief operating officer at the Linux Foundation between '06 and '10, and I definitely think you can, CNCF as part of the Linux Foundation, we took that model of saying, "the technology decisions "need to be separate from business ones." One thing that's interesting to me is that when I was last in this space 10 years ago, people were perfectly fine. Linux Journals, GPL, people were fine with free licenses like MIT and BSD. Since then, and for this group, there is an enormous focus on the Apache license. And the reason why, is the fear of submarine patents. And so the whole goal of CNCF is for us to be an intellectual property no fly zone. That you can have all of these companies that compete very hard in the marketplace, but they can come together and collaborate and share their ideas and their technology without the belief that a couple years later, someone's going to be able to trick someone else in with a lawsuit, and win that. And the Apache license is really the industry consensus right now for best practices. >> It's interesting cause that no fly zone gives the freedom for the creation and the invention side of it. The patent thing is always worrisome, but in general, there's also the business model down the road kind of approach. Which is, "let's go innovate." Apache has done great on packaging. Have someone get some traction. It fosters the community aspect as well as a startup. Maybe not thinking about packaging. >> No, we have an advantage that we're not, unlike OpenStack as an example, we're not trying to come up with the projects ourself. What we're actually doing is scouring the Cloud Native landscape, talking to different groups and saying, "Oh, what do we think is "the best in class project out there?" And in some cases it's more than one, but today we just announced the fourth project that's added to the CNCF. So we have Kubernetes, we have Prometheus, which is a monitoring application. OpenTracing is a tracing, and then today we just added Fluentd, which is a logging solution. And this is the idea that if you have dozens or hundreds of different applications and projects that are each producing a log stream, and then you have a perhaps dozens of other applications that are consuming it, you don't want to have an M times N problem of creating adapters for all of them. Instead, you can plug them all into Fluentd, it has over 300 adapters for different solutions out there. And that provides one comprehensive approach. But what's interesting is that we don't need to win over the community and say, "Oh, here's this project you may not have heard of." There's actually over 2000 users of that today. But by having them here at CNCF, showing how it plugs into other technologies of ours, we think we can hope-- >> You're cross-pollinating? >> Dan: Exactly. >> You're letting it bubble up and you're not being a-- >> Dan: That's exactly the metaphor. >> (laughs) A dictator. Okay, and back to the project side, this is awesome. So you have some gravity around these projects. Is there any cadence or expectation, or is it free for all in terms of the velocity of adoption of projects that the technical committee will oversight? >> We would love to be at the pace of one a month. And I don't know that we'll quite get that fast. One big change that we're hoping to make in the next month or two. When our first two projects were Kubernetes and Prometheus, those are two of the fastest growing best respected projects on GitHub right now. We didn't want to have such a high milestone for every other project we considered. So we're adopting what we think we're going to call an inception stage of earlier projects that we're going to sort of try out, but they have to essentially prove themselves within 12 months. And hopefully that'll allow us to keep a pretty good velocity where we think there's a fantastic number of projects, we think as a community, we can-- >> Yeah, let people fight it out, surface stuff and let people kick the tires, right? That's the incubation period basically. What about the forking and all the battle cage matches that go on, how do you want to handle that or you just let nature take its course? Is that philosophy there? >> Thankfully, when we look at the space and this is really coming out of the Linux Space as well, anyone can fork, and of course it has a slightly different connotation now with GitHub, where when you make a change, you fork it, but there's also just a massive centripetal force pushing people together. And when you have a really high velocity of changes, the idea of forking and you would lose out on that, becomes a lot less appealing. And so, so far thankfully, all of our members and everyone in the community has really been on board on having a single head on working together to have that consultation. >> We just had Richard Kaufman on from, I think Robert Kaufman, I mean, from Samsung, he was talking about that the number two contributor is other. >> Dan: Yes. >> Which is a nice balance to the whole critical mass. >> It's an incredible accomplishment cause for Google to pull in enough people that they're no longer the majority contributor, is something that we're thrilled with. >> Yeah, it's great to see you have Richard Kaufman. Google is the number one contributor, are you worried about that? Maybe, they've been certainly good actors in the community. I mean, they had MapReduce and let Cloudera run with it, look at what happened with that? So, we kind of all know this backstory of Kubernetes, they're kind of letting it bloom on its own. That's consistent with their current posturing? >> Well, I don't think they want to have another Cloudera. >> Which is why they embraced Kubernetes. >> But I definitely don't think it's fair to say that they're doing it on their own. They're still the largest contributor of any one company and they have a massive amount of resources, and I think they see it as a really key technology, it's something they mentioned-- >> What I was referring to is that Cloudera kind of took MapReduce under their wing and made a commercial venture out. >> Dan: Oh yeah, absolutely. >> I think Google didn't want that. >> No, and they, I mean, the way I think about it is, they had this technology a few years ago. This is definitely oversimplified. They could have kept it as a proprietary in the house thing, like Amazon Elastic Container Service. They could have made it an internal open source project, like Go, or they could have just created a Kubernetes foundation that allowed other people in, but they still controlled it. But instead they were really interested in working with the Linux Foundation and creating this Cloud Native Computing Foundation that was always designed to be much more than just Kubernetes. And that really was about trying to push the project out of the nest. But I will say that my understanding is they're still see that as an absolutely core for their business. >> Yeah, I got to give Google props out there for that because they did do the right thing there. they put it out in the open, they did a line, and they could have land grabbed that, in a different way, I mean, certainly not the way that one was above. Final question on this event, KubeCon or KubernetesCon, KubeCon, it's KubeCon, however people call it. Not to confuse with the Cube, this Cube product which is seven years and might be trademark infringement but yeah, we'll get that later. >> Dan: With a K. (both laughing) >> It's still causing a lot of confusion. But that aside, CloudNativeCon also is in conjunction, this is part of the expansion you were mentioning. Talk about the vision for the events, you got one in Berlin coming up, and certainly you could have had probably at least a few more thousand people here for sure. >> Oh well, certainly a few more hundred. And we do feel a little bad that we didn't quite aim high enough. So our vision going forward is that we have CloudNativeCon that represents all of our projects, and that KubeCon represents the biggest part of CloudNativeCon. So it's multiple tracks. It's what a ton of folks go for but we think that it also gives us a chance to expose those people to our other projects, and by the time we get to Berlin, we're certainly hoping that we have another two or three or more projects-- >> And the date on Berlin? >> It's March 29th and 30th. And then we also announced that we're going to be in Austin, in early December. And I'll say that for both of those events, we're tripling the capacity from what we had last year. So we're hoping not to be so crowded. >> I was talking to Andy Jassy last night, we had a one-on-one with him and he's talking about the first Reinvent, he didn't think he can get 4,000 people there as packed. I think you might be, having to look at more capacity potentially. I mean, at this pace. >> It's the hard question is we'd actually like to be signing contracts for 2018, and it's just really hard to predict what the right size is to get for that, because I feel terrible about the fact that we did turn people away, especially end-users that we'd like to be introducing to this space. >> Yeah, well, I can attest people watching this, definitely a fire marshal issue, because it's really packed. That's why we're in a separate room here. There was sunlight in the background earlier. Normally, we're on the show floor with the Cube, but yeah, every space is taken, hallways are jamming. >> The other thing I'll mention though, is that we are also interested in going out and reaching customers and vendors where they are. So we're going to have a booth at AWS Reinvent, and we're looking at other conferences that we can be at to help spread the Cloud Native word. >> We're certainly going to be able to have a hundred events this year, so let us know where you're at, we'll certainly bring you guys on. Let me give you the final word. Tell the folks why Kubernetes is so important. Why is this movement, why are people so excited here? For the folks that couldn't make it, what's the vibe, why is it important, and what's the impact to customers in the industry? >> So the belief is that if you're deploying a new modern software application that, putting into containers, using an orchestration platform like Kubernetes, dividing your app up into microservices is a really such a benefit in terms of optimizing your resources, and tying into a whole rapid development process, continuous integration, continuous deployment, that not doing it almost makes it impossible to compete. And so we think there's just a ton of momentum around containerization and orchestration. >> And the speed of the innovation is one of those things if you're not on it, you fall further behind and it takes more energy to catch up if you try to do it by yourself. That's the benefit of the collective communities and it highlights open source. >> Right. >> Big time in terms of successes. Dan, thanks so much for coming on, sharing the perspective, congratulations and sorry for the folks who couldn't make it, hopefully this video will help. This is the Cube here in Seattle for special coverage of CloudNativeCon and KubeCon, here in Seattle. Thanks for watching, I'm John furrier. >> Dan: Thanks. (upbeat music)

>> From around the globe, it's theCUBE with coverage of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2020 Virtual brought to you by Red Hat, the CloudNative Computing Foundation, and Ecosystem Partners. >> Hi and welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of KubeCon, CloudNativeCon 2020 in Europe, of course the virtual edition. I'm Stu Miniman and happy to welcome back to the program one of the keynote speakers, he's also a board member of the CNCF, Vijoy Pandey who is the vice president and chief technology officer for Cloud at Cisco. Vijoy, nice to see you and thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you Stu, and nice to see you again. It's a strange setting to be in but as long as we are both health, everything is good. >> Yeah, it's still a, we still get to be together a little bit even though while we're apart, we love the engagement and interaction that we normally get through the community but we just have to do it a little bit differently this year. So we're going to get to your keynote. We've had you on the program to talk about "Network, Please Evolve", been watching that journey. But why don't we start it first, you know, you've had a little bit of change in roles and responsibility. I know there's been some restructuring at Cisco since the last time we got together. So give us the update on your role. >> Yeah, so that, yeah let's start there. So I've taken on a new responsibility. It's VP of Engineering and Research for a new group that's been formed at Cisco. It's called Emerging Tech and Incubation. Liz Centoni leads that and she reports into Chuck. The role, the charter for this team, this new team, is to incubate the next bets for Cisco. And, if you can imagine, it's natural for Cisco to start with bets which are closer to its core business, but the charter for this group is to mover further and further out from Cisco's core business and takes this core into newer markets, into newer products, and newer businesses. I am running the engineering and research for that group. And, again, the whole deal behind this is to be a little bit nimble, to be a little startupy in nature, where you bring ideas, you incubate them, you iterate pretty fast and you throw out 80% of those and concentrate on the 20% that make sense to take forward as a venture. >> Interesting. So it reminds me a little bit, but different, I remember John Chambers a number of years back talking about various adjacencies, trying to grow those next, you know, multi-billion dollar businesses inside Cisco. In some ways, Vijoy, it reminds me a little bit of your previous company, very well known for, you know, driving innovation, giving engineering 20% of their time to work on things. Give us a little bit of insight. What's kind of an example of a bet that you might be looking at in the space? Bring us inside a little bit. >> Well that's actually a good question and I think a little bit of that comparison is, are those conversations that taking place within Cisco as well as to how far out from Cisco's core business do we want to get when we're incubating these bets. And, yes, my previous employer, I mean Google X actually goes pretty far out when it comes to incubations. The core business being primarily around ads, now Google Cloud as well, but you have things like Verily and Calico and others which are pretty far out from where Google started. And the way we are looking at these things within Cisco is, it's a new muscle for Cisco so we want to prove ourselves first. So the first few bets that we are betting upon are pretty close to Cisco's core but still not fitting into Cisco's BU when it comes to go-to-market alignment or business alignment. So while the first bets that we are taking into account is around API being the queen when it comes to the future of infrastructure, so to speak. So it's not just making our infrastructure consumable as infrastructure's code, but also talking about developer relevance, talking about how developers are actually influencing infrastructure deployments. So if you think about the problem statement in that sense, then networking needs to evolve. And I talked a lot about this in the past couple of keynotes where Cisco's core business has been around connecting and securing physical endpoints, physical I/O endpoints, whatever they happen to be, of whatever type they happen to be. And one of the bets that we are, actually two of the bets that we are going after is around connecting and securing API endpoints wherever they happen to be of whatever type they happen to be. And so API networking, or app networking, is one big bet that we're going after. Our other big bet is around API security and that has a bunch of other connotations to it where we think about security moving from runtime security where traditionally Cisco has played in that space, especially on the infrastructure side, but moving into API security which is only under the developer pipeline and higher up in the stack. So those are two big bets that we're going after and as you can see, they're pretty close to Cisco's core business but also very differentiated from where Cisco is today. And once when you prove some of these bets out, you can walk further and further away or a few degrees away from Cisco's core as it exists today. >> All right, well Vijoy, I mentioned you're also on the board for the CNCF, maybe let's talk a little bit about open source. How does that play into what you're looking at for emerging technologies and these bets, you know, so many companies, that's an integral piece, and we've watched, you know really, the maturation of Cisco's journey, participating in these open source environments. So help us tie in where Cisco is when it comes to open source. >> So, yeah, so I think we've been pretty deeply involved in open source in our past. We've been deeply involved in Linux foundational networking. We've actually chartered FD.io as a project there and we still are. We've been involved in OpenStack. We are big supporters of OpenStack. We have a couple of products that are on the OpenStack offering. And as you all know, we've been involved in CNCF right from the get go as a foundational member. We brought NSM as a project. It's sandbox currently. We're hoping to move it forward. But even beyond that, I mean we are big users of open source. You know a lot of us has offerings that we have from Cisco and you would not know this if you're not inside of Cisco, but Webex, for example, is a big, big user of linger D right from the get go from version 1.0. But we don't talk about it, which is sad. I think for example, we use Kubernetes pretty deeply in our DNAC platform on the enterprise site. We use Kubernetes very deeply in our security platforms. So we are pretty deep users internally in all our SAS products. But we want to press the accelerator and accelerate this whole journey towards open source quite a bit moving forward as part of ET&I, Emerging Tech and Incubation as well. So you will see more of us in open source forums, not just the NCF but very recently we joined the Linux Foundation for Public Health as a premier foundational member. Dan Kohn, our old friend, is actually chartering that initiative and we actually are big believers in handling data in ethical and privacy preserving ways. So that's actually something that enticed us to join Linux Foundation for Public Health and we will be working very closely with Dan and the foundational companies there to, not just bring open source, but also evangelize and use what comes out of that forum. >> All right. Well, Vijoy, I think it's time for us to dig into your keynote. We've spoken with you in previous KubeCons about the "Network, Please Evolve" theme that you've been driving on, and big focus you talked about was SD-WAN. Of course anybody that been watching the industry has watched the real ascension of SD-WAN. We've called it one of those just critical foundational pieces of companies enabling Multicloud, so help us, you know, help explain to our audience a little bit, you know, what do you mean when you talk about things like CloudNative, SD-WAN, and how that helps people really enable their applications in the modern environment? >> Yeah, so, well we we've been talking about SD-WAN for a while. I mean, it's one of the transformational technologies of our time where prior to SD-WAN existing, you had to stitch all of these MPLS labels and actual data connectivity across to your enterprise or branch and SD-WAN came in and changed the game there. But I think SD-WAN as it exists today is application-alaware. And that's one of the big things that I talk about in my keynote. Also, we've talked about how NSM, the other side of the spectrum, is how NSM, or network service mesh, has actually helped us simplify operational complexities, simplify the ticketing and process hell that any developer needs to go through just to get a multicloud, multicluster app up and running. So the keynote actually talked about bringing those two things together where we've talked about using NSM in the past, in chapter one and chapter two, ah chapter two, no this is chapter three and at some point I would like to stop the chapters. I don't want this to be like, like an encyclopedia of networking (mumbling) But we are at chapter three and we are talking about how you can take the same consumption models that I talked about in chapter two which is just adding a simple annotation in your CRD and extending that notion of multicloud, multicluster wires within the components of our application but extending it all the way down to the user in an enterprise. And as you saw an example, Gavin Russom is trying to give a keynote holographically and he's suffering from SD-WAN being application alaware. And using this construct of a simple annotation, we can actually make SD-WAN CloudNative. We can make it application-aware, and we can guarantee the SLOs that Gavin is looking for in terms of 3D video, in terms of file access or audio just to make sure that he's successful and Ross doesn't come in and take his place. >> Well I expect Gavin will do something to mess things up on his own even if the technology works flawly. You know, Vijoy the modernization journey that customers are on is a neverending story. I understand the chapters need to end on the current volume that you're working on. But, you know, we'd love to get your view point. You talk about things like service mesh. It's definitely been a hot topic of conversation for the last couple of years. What are you hearing from your customers? What are some of the the kind of real challenges but opportunities that they see in today's CloudNative space? >> In general, service meshes are here to stay. In fact, they're here to proliferate to some degree and we are seeing a lot of that happening where not only are we seeing different service meshes coming into the picture through various open source mechanisms. You've got Istio there, you've got linger D, you've got various proprietary notions around control planes like App Mesh from Amazon. There's Console which is an open source project But not part of (mumbles) today. So there's a whole bunch of service meshes in terms of control planes coming in on volumes becoming a de facto side car data plane, whatever you would like to call it, de facto standard there which is good for the community I would say. But this proliferation of control planes is actually a problem. And I see customers actually deploying a multitude of service meshes in their environment. And that's here to stay. In fact, we are seeing a whole bunch of things that we would use different tools for. Like API Gate was in the past. And those functions are actually rolling into service meshes. And so I think service meshes are here to stay. I think the diversity of some service meshes is here to stay. And so some work has to be done in bringing these things together and that's something that we are trying to focus in on all as well because that's something that our customers are asking for. >> Yeah, actually you connected for me something I wanted to get your viewpoint on. Dial back you know 10, 15 years ago and everybody would say, "Ah, you know, I really want to have single pane of glass "to be able to manage everything." Cisco's partnering with all of the major cloud providers. I saw, you know, not that long before this event, Google had their Google Cloud show talking about the partnership that you have with Cisco with Google. They have Anthos. You look at Azure has Arc. You know, VMware has Tanzu. Everybody's talking about, really, kind of this multicluster management type of solution out there. And just want to get your viewpoint on this Vijoy is to, you know, how are we doing on the management plane and what do you think we need to do as a industry as a whole to make things better for customers? >> Yeah, but I think this is where I think we need to be careful as an industry, as a community and make things simpler for our customers because, like I said, the proliferation of all of these control planes begs the question, do we need to build something else to bring all of these things together. And I think the SMI apropos from Microsoft is bang on on that front where you're trying to unify at least the consumption model around how you consume these service meshes. But it's not just a question of service meshes. As you saw in the SD-WAN and also going back in the Google discussion that you just, or Google conference that we just offered It's also how SD-WANs are going to interoperate with the services that exist within these cloud silos to some degree. And how does that happen? And there was a teaser there that you saw earlier in the keynote where we are taking those constructs that we talked about in the Google conference and bringing it all the way to a CloudNative environment in the keynote. But I think the bigger problem here is how do we manage this complexity of disparate stacks, whether it's service meshes, whether it's development stacks, or whether it's SD-WAN deployments, how do we manage that complexity? And, single pane of glass is over loaded as a term because it brings in these notions of big, monolithic panes of glass. And I think that's not the way we should be solving it. We should be solving it towards using API simplicity and API interoperability. I think that's where we as a community need to go. >> Absolutely. Well, Vijoy, as you said, you know, the API economy should be able to help on these, you know, multi, the service architecture should allow things to be more flexible and give me the visibility I need without trying to have to build something that's completely monolithic. Vijoy, thanks so much for joining. Looking forward to hearing more about the big bets coming out of Cisco and congratulations on the new role. >> Thank you Stu. It was a pleasure to be here. >> All right, and stay tuned for much more coverage of theCUBE at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon. I'm Stu Miniman and thanks for watching. (light digital music)

(upbeat music) >> From around the globe, it's theCUBE with coverage of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2020 Virtual brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and the ecosystem partners. >> Hi, and welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of KubeCon + CloudNativeCon 2020 in Europe, of course, the virtual edition. I'm Stu Miniman, and happy to welcome you back to the program. One of the keynote speakers is also a board member of the CNCF, Vijoy Pandey, who is the Vice President and Chief Technology Officer for Cloud at Cisco. Vijoy, nice to see you, thanks so much for joining us. >> Hi there, Stu, so nice to see you again. It's a strange setting to be in, but as long as we are both healthy, everything's good. >> Yeah, we still get to be together a little bit even though while we're apart. We love the the engagement and interaction that we normally get to the community, but we just have to do it a little bit differently this year. So we're going to get to your keynote. We've had you on the program to talk about "Networking, Please Evolve". I've been watching that journey. But why don't we start at first, you've had a little bit of change in roles and responsibility. I know there's been some restructuring at Cisco since the last time we got together. So give us the update on your role. >> Yeah, so let's start there. So I've taken on a new responsibility. It's VP of Engineering and Research for a new group that's been formed at Cisco. It's called Emerging Tech and Incubation. Liz Centoni leads that and she reports on to Chuck. The charter for the team, this new team, is to incubate the next bets for Cisco. And if you can imagine, it's natural for Cisco to start with bets which are closer to its core business. But the charter for this group is to move further and further out from Cisco's core business and take Cisco into newer markets, into newer products, and newer businesses. I'm running the engineering and resource for that group. And again, the whole deal behind this is to be a little bit nimble, to be a little bit, to startupy in nature, where you bring ideas, you incubate them, you iterate pretty fast, and you throw out 80% of those, and concentrate on the 20% that makes sense to take forward as a venture. >> Interesting. So it reminds me a little bit but different, I remember John Chambers, a number of years back, talking about various adjacencies trying to grow those next multi-billion dollar businesses inside Cisco. In some ways, Vijoy, it reminds me a little bit of your previous company, very well known for driving innovation, giving engineers 20% of their time to work on things, maybe give us a little bit insight, what's kind of an example of a bet that you might be looking at in this space, bring us in tight a little bit. >> Well, that's actually a good question. And I think a little bit of that comparison is all those conversations are taking place within Cisco as well as to how far out from Cisco's core business do we want to get when we're incubating these bets? And yes, my previous employer, I mean, Google X actually goes pretty far out when it comes to incubations, the core business being primarily around ads, now Google Cloud as well. But you have things like Verily and Calico, and others, which are pretty far out from where Google started. And the way we're looking at the these things within Cisco is, it's a new muscle for Cisco, so we want to prove ourselves first. So the first few bets that we are betting upon are pretty close to Cisco's core but still not fitting into Cisco's BU when it comes to, go to market alignment or business alignment. So one of the first bets that we're taking into account is around API being the queen when it comes to the future of infrastructure, so to speak. So it's not just making our infrastructure consumable as infrastructure as code but also talking about developer relevance, talking about how developers are actually influencing infrastructure deployments. So if you think about the problem statement in that sense, then networking needs to evolve. And I've talked a lot about this in the past couple of keynotes, where Cisco's core business has been around connecting and securing physical endpoints, physical I/O endpoints, wherever they happen to be, of whatever type they happen to be. And one of the bets that we are, actually two of the bets, that we're going after is around connecting and securing API endpoints, wherever they happen to be, of whatever type they happen to be. And so API networking or app networking is one big bet that we're going after. Another big bet is around API security. And that has a bunch of other connotations to it, where we think about security moving from runtime security, where traditionally Cisco has played in that space, especially on the infrastructure side, but moving into API security, which is earlier in the development pipeline, and higher up in the stack. So those are two big bets that we're going after. And as you can see, they're pretty close to Cisco's core business, but also are very differentiated from where Cisco is today. And once you prove some of these bets out, you can walk further and further away, or a few degrees away from Cisco's core. >> All right, Vijoy, why don't you give us the update about how Cisco is leveraging and participating in open source? >> So I think we've been pretty, deeply involved in open source in our past. We've been deeply involved in Linux Foundation Networking. We've actually chartered FD.io as a project there and we still are. We've been involved in OpenStack, we have been supporters of OpenStack. We have a couple of products that are around the OpenStack offering. And as you all know, we've been involved in CNCF, right from the get-go, as a foundation member. We brought NSM as a project. I had Sandbox currently, but we're hoping to move it forward. But even beyond that, I mean, we are big users of open source, a lot of those has offerings that we have from Cisco, and you will not know this if you're not inside of Cisco. But Webex, for example, is a big, big user of Linkerd, right from the get-go, from version 1.0, but we don't talk about it, which is sad. I think, for example, we use Kubernetes pretty deeply in our DNAC platform on the enterprise side. We use Kubernetes very deeply in our security platforms. So we're pretty good, pretty deep users internally in our SaaS products. But we want to press the accelerator and accelerate this whole journey towards open source, quite a bit moving forward as part of ET&I, Emerging Tech and Incubation, as well. So you will see more of us in open source forums, not just CNCF, but very recently, we joined the Linux Foundation for Public Health as a premier foundational member. Dan Kohn, our old friend, is actually chartering that initiative, and we actually are big believers in handling data in ethical and privacy-preserving ways. So that's actually something that enticed us to join Linux Foundation for Public Health, and we will be working very closely with Dan and foundational companies that do not just bring open source but also evangelize and use what comes out of that forum. >> All right, well, Vijoy, I think it's time for us to dig into your keynote. We've we've spoken with you in previous KubeCons about the "Network, Please Evolve" theme that you've been driving on. And big focus you talked about was SD-WAN. Of course, anybody that's been watching the industry has watched the real ascension of SD-WAN. We've called it one of those just critical foundational pieces of companies enabling multi-cloud. So help explain to our audience a little bit, what do you mean when you talk about things like Cloud Native SD-WAN and how that helps people really enable their applications in the modern environment? >> Yes, well, I mean, we've been talking about SD-WAN for a while. I mean, it's one of the transformational technologies of our time where prior to SD-WAN existing, you had to stitch all of these MPLS labels and actually get your connectivity across to your enterprise or branch. And SD-WAN came in and changed the game there, but I think SD-WAN, as it exists today, is application-unaware. And that's one of the big things that I talk about in my keynote. Also, we've talked about how NSM, the other side of the spectrum, is how NSM or Network Service Mesh has actually helped us simplify operational complexities, simplify the ticketing and process health that any developer needs to go through just to get a multi-cloud, multi-cluster app up and running. So the keynote actually talked about bringing those two things together, where we've talked about using NSM in the past in chapter one and chapter two. And I know this is chapter three, and at some point, I would like to stop the chapters. I don't want this like an encyclopedia of "Networking, Please Evolve". But we are at chapter three, and we are talking about how you can take the same consumption models that I talked about in chapter two, which is just adding a simple annotation in your CRD, and extending that notion of multi-cloud, multi-cluster wires within the components of our application, but extending it all the way down to the user in an enterprise. And as we saw an example, Gavin Belson is trying to give a keynote holographically and he's suffering from SD-WAN being application-unaware. And using this construct of a simple annotation, we can actually make SD-WAN cloud native, we can make it application-aware, and we can guarantee the SLOs, that Gavin is looking for, in terms of 3D video, in terms of file access for audio, just to make sure that he's successful and Ross doesn't come in and take his place. >> Well, I expect Gavin will do something to mess things up on his own even if the technology works flawlessly. Vijoy, the modernization journey that customers are on is a never-ending story. I understand the chapters need to end on the current volume that you're working on, but we'd love to get your viewpoint. You talk about things like service mesh, it's definitely been a hot topic of conversation for the last couple of years. What are you hearing from your customers? What are some of the kind of real challenges but opportunities that they see in today's cloud native space? >> In general, service meshes are here to stay. In fact, they're here to proliferate to some degree, and we are seeing a lot of that happening, where not only are we seeing different service meshes coming into the picture through various open source mechanisms. You've got Istio there, you've Linkerd, you've got various proprietary notions around control planes like App Mesh, from Amazon, there's Consul, which is an open source project, but not part of CNCF today. So there's a whole bunch of service meshes in terms of control planes coming in. Envoy is becoming a de facto sidecar data plane, whatever you would like to call it, de facto standard there, which is good for the community, I would say. But this proliferation of control planes is actually a problem. And I see customers actually deploying a multitude of service meshes in their environment, and that's here to stay. In fact, we are seeing a whole bunch of things that we would use different tools for, like API gateways in the past, and those functions actually rolling into service meshes. And so I think service meshes are here to stay. I think the diversity of service meshes is here to stay. And so some work has to be done in bringing these things together. And that's something that we are trying to focus in on as well. Because that's something that our customers are asking for. >> Yeah, actually, you connected for me something I wanted to get your viewpoint on, go dial back, 10, 15 years ago, and everybody would say, "Oh, I really want to have a single pane of glass "to be able to manage everything." Cisco's partnering with all of the major cloud providers. I saw, not that long before this event, Google had their Google Cloud Show, talking about the partnership that you have with, Cisco with Google. They have Anthos, you look at Azure has Arc, VMware has Tanzu. Everybody's talking about really the kind of this multi-cluster management type of solution out there, and just want to get your viewpoint on this Vijoy as to how are we doing on the management plane, and what do you think we need to do as an industry as a whole to make things better for customers? >> Yeah, I think this is where I think we need to be careful as an industry, as a community and make things simpler for our customers. Because, like I said, the proliferation of all of these control planes begs the question, do we need to build something else to bring all these things together? I think the SMI proposal from Microsoft is bang on on that front, where you're trying to unify at least the consumption model around how you consume these service meshes. But it's not just a question of service meshes as you saw in the SD-WAN announcement back in the Google discussion that we just, Google conference that you just referred. It's also how SD-WANs are going to interoperate with the services that exist within these cloud silos to some degree. And how does that happen? And there was a teaser there that you saw earlier in the keynote where we are taking those constructs that we talked about in the Google conference and bringing it all the way to a cloud native environment in the keynote. But I think the bigger problem here is how do we manage this complexity of this pallet stacks? Whether it's service meshes, whether it's development stacks, or whether it's SD-WAN deployments, how do we manage that complexity? And single pane of glass is overloaded as a term, because it brings in these notions of big monolithic panes of glass. And I think that's not the way we should be solving it. We should be solving it towards using API simplicity and API interoperability. And I think that's where we as a community need to go. >> Absolutely. Well, Vijoy, as you said, the API economy should be able to help on these, the service architecture should allow things to be more flexible and give me the visibility I need without trying to have to build something that's completely monolithic. Vijoy, thanks so much for joining. Looking forward to hearing more about the big bets coming out of Cisco, and congratulations on the new role. >> Thank you, Stu. It was a pleasure to be here. >> All right, and stay tuned for lots more coverage of theCUBE at KubeCon + CloudNativeCon. I'm Stu Miniman. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE Conversation. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman, and welcome to this CUBE Conversation. I'm coming to you from our Boston area studio. I'm happy to welcome to the program someone we've known for many years, but a first time on the program. Priyanka Sharma, thank you so much for joining us. >> Hi, Stu. Thank you so much for having me. >> All right, and Priyanka, let's not bury the lead or anything. The reason we're talking to you is the news. You've got a new job, but in an area that you know really well. So we've known you through the cloud native communities for a number of years. We see you at the shows. We see you online. So happy to share with our community you are now the general manager of the CNCF, so congratulations so much on the job. >> Thank you so much. I am so honored to have this opportunity, and I can't wait to work even more closely with the cloud native community than I have already. I mean, as you said, I've been involved for a long time. I actually just saw on my LinkedIn today that 2016 was when my conversation within the CNCF started. I was then working on the OpenTracing Project, which was the third project to join the foundation, and CNCF had started in 2015, so it was all very new. We were in conversations, and it was just such an exciting time, and that just kept getting bigger and bigger, and then with GitLab I served, I actually still serve, until the 31st, on the board. And now this, so I'm very, very excited. >> Yeah, well right. So you're a board member of the CNCF, but Priyanka, if you go back even further, we look at how did CNCF start. It was all around Kubernetes. Where did Kubernetes come from? It came from Google, and when I dug back far enough into your CV I found Google on there, too. So maybe just give us a little bit of your career arc, and what you're involved with for people that don't know you from all these communities and events. >> Sure, absolutely. So my career started at Google in Mountain View, and I was on the business side of things. I worked with AdSense products, and around that same time I had a bit of the entrepreneurial bite, so the bug bit me, and I first joined a startup that was acquired by GoDaddy later on, and then I went off on my own. That was a very interesting time for me, because that was when I truly learned about the power of opensource. One of the products that me and my co-founder were building was an opensource time tracker, and I just saw the momentum on these communities, and that's when the dev tools love started. And then I got involved with Heavybit Industries, which is an accelerator for dev tools. There I met so many companies that were either in the cloud space, or just general other kinds of dev tools, advised a few, ended up joining LightStep, where the founders, them and a few community members were the creators of the OpenTracing standard. Got heavily, heavily involved in that project, jumped into cloud native with that, was a project contributor, organizer, educator, documentarian, all kinds of things, right, for two-plus years, and then GitLab with the board membership, and that's how I saw, actually, the governance side. Until then it had all been the community, the education, that aspect, and then I understood how Chris and Dan had built this amazing foundation that's done so much from the governance perspective. So it's been a long journey and it all feels that it's been coming towards in this awesome new direction. >> Well, yeah. Congratulations to you, and right, CNCF, in their press release I see Dan talked about you've been a speaker, you've been a governing board member, you participate in this, and you're going to help with that next phase, and you teased out a little bit, there's a lot of constituencies in the CNCF. There's a large user participation. We always love talking at KubeCon about the people not only just using the technology, but contributing back, the role of opensource, the large vendor ecosystem, a lot there. So give us your thought as to kind of where the CNCF is today, and where it needs to continue and go in the future. >> Absolutely. So in my opinion the CNCF is a breakout organization. I mean, we're approaching 600 members, of which 142 are end users. So with that number the CNCF is actually the largest, has the largest end user community of all opensource foundations. So tremendous progress has been made, especially from those days back in 2016 when we were the third project being considered. So leaps and bounds, so impressive. And I think... If you think about what's the end user storyline right now, so the CNCF did a survey last year, and so 84% of the people surveyed were using containers in production, and 78% were using Kubernetes in production. Amazing numbers, especially since both are up by about 15, 20% year over year. So this move towards devops, towards cloud native, towards Kubernetes is happening and happening really strong. The project has truly established itself. Kubernetes has won, in my opinion, and that's really good. I think now when it comes to the second wave, it is my perspective that the end user communities and the... Just the momentum that we have right now, we need to build and grow it. We need deeper developer engagement, because if you think about it, there's not just one graduated project in CNCF. There are 10. So Kubernetes being one of them, but there's Prometheus, there's Envoy, Jaeger, et cetera, et cetera. So we have amazing technologies that are all gaining adoption. Being graduated means that they have fast security audits, they have diverse contributors, they have safe, good governance, so as an end user you can feel very secure adopting them, and so we have so much to do to expand on the knowledge of those projects. We have so much to make software just better every day, so that's my one vector in my opinion. The second vector, I would say it has been more opportunistic. As you know, we are all living in a very unprecedented time with a global pandemic. Many of us are sheltering in place. Many are... Generally, life is changed. You are in media. You know this much better than me, I'm sure, that the number of, the amount of digital consumption has just skyrocketed. People are reading that many more articles. I'm watching that many more memes and jokes online, right? And what that means is that more and more companies are reaching that crazy web scale that started this whole cloud native and devops space in the first time, first place with Google and Netflix being D-to-C companies just building out what eventually became cloud native, SRE, that kind of stuff. So in general, online consumption's higher, so more and more companies need to be cloud native to support that kind of traffic. Secondly, even for folks that are not creating content, just a lot of the workflows have to move online. More people will do online banking. More people will do ecommerce. It's just the shift is happening, and for that we, as the foundation, need to be ready to support the end users with education, enablement, certifications, training programs, just to get them across that chasm into a new, even more online-focused reality. >> Yeah, and I say, Priyanka, that tees up one of the ways that most people are familiar with the CNCF is through the event. So KubeCon and CloudNativeCon, really the signature event. Tremendous growth over the last few years. You actually had involvement in a virtual event, the Cloud Native Summit recently. For KubeCon-- >> Yes. >> The European show is announced virtual. We know that there's still some uncertainty when it comes to the North America show. Supposed to be in my backyard here in Boston, so we'd love for it to happen. If it happens-- >> Of course. >> If not, we'll be there virtually or not. Give us a little bit your experience with the Cloud Native Summit, and what's your thinking today? We understand, as you said, a lot of uncertainty as to what goes on. Absolutely, even when physical events come back in the future, we expect this hybrid model to be with us for a long time. >> I definitely hear that. Completely agree that everything is uncertain and things have changed very rapidly for our world, particularly when it comes to events. We're lucky at the CNCF to be working with the LF Events team, which is just best in class, and we are working very hard every day, them, doing a lot of the lion's share of the work of building the best experience we can for KubeCon, CloudNativeCon EU, which, as you said, went virtual. I'm really looking forward to it because what I learned from the Cloud Native Summit Online, which was the event you mentioned that I had hosted in April, is that people are hungry to just engage, to see each other, to communicate however they can in this current time. Today I don't think the technology's at a point where physical events can be overshadowed by virtual, so there's still something very special about seeing someone face-to-face, having a coffee, and having that banter, conversations. But at the same time there are some benefits to online. So as an example, with the Cloud Native Summit, really, it was just me and a few community folks who were sad we didn't get to go to Amsterdam, so we're like, "Let's just get together in a group, "have some fun, talk to some maintainers," that kind of thing. I expected a few hundred, max. Thousands of people showed up, and that was just mind blowing because I was like, "Wait, what?" (chuckling) But it was so awesome because not only were there a lot of people, there were people from just about every part of the globe. So normally you have US, Europe, that kind of focus, and there's the Asia-PAC events that cater to that, but here in that one event where, by the way, we were talking to each other in realtime, there were folks from Asia-PAC, there were folks from Americas, EU, also the African continent, so geo meant nothing anymore. And that was very awesome. People from these different parts of the world were talking, engaging, learning, all at the same time, and I think with over 20,000 people expected at KubeCon EU, with it being virtual, we'll see something similar, and I think that's a big opportunity for us going forward. >> Yeah, no, absolutely. There are some new opportunities, some new challenges. I think back to way back in January I got to attend the GitLab event, and you look at GitLab, a fully remote company, but talking about the benefits of still getting together and doing things online. You think of the developer communities, they're used to working remote and working across different timezones, but there is that need to be able to get together and collaborate, and so we've got some opportunities, we've got some challenges when remote, so I guess, yeah, Priyanka. Give me the final word, things you want to look forward to, things we should be expecting from you and the CNCF team going forward. I guess I'll mention for our audience, I guess, Dan Kohn staying part of Linux Foundation, doing some healthcare things, will still stay a little involved, and Chris Aniszczyk, who's the CTO, still the CTO. I just saw him. Did a great panel for DockerCon with Kelsey Hightower, Michelle Noorali, and Sean Connelly, and all people we know that-- >> Right. >> Often are speaking at KubeCon, too. So many of the faces staying the same. I'm not expecting a big change, but what should we expect going forward? >> That's absolutely correct, Stu. No big changes. My first big priority as I join is, I mean, as you know, coming with the community background, with all this work that we've put into education and learning from each other, my number one goal is going to be to listen and learn in a very diverse set of personas that are part of this whole community. I mean, there's the board, there is the technical oversight committee, there is the project maintainers, there's the contributors, there are the end users, potential developers who could be contributors. There's just so many different types of people all united in our interest and desire to learn more about cloud native. So my number one priority is going to listen and learn, and as I get more and more up to speed I'm very lucky that Chris Aniszczyk, who has built this with Dan, is staying on and is going to be advising me, guiding me, and working with me. Dan as well is actually going to be around to help advise me and also work on some key initiatives, in addition to his big, new thing with public health and the Linux Foundation. You never expect anything average with Dan, so it's going to be amazing. He's done so much for this foundation and brought it to this point, which in my mind, I mean, it's stupendous the amount of work that's happened. It's so cool. So I'm really looking forward to building on this amazing foundation created by Dan and Chris under Jim. I think that what they have done by not only providing a neutral IP zone where people can contribute and use projects safely, they've also created an ecosystem where there is events, there is educational activity, projects can get documentation support, VR support. It's a very holistic view, and that's something, in my opinion, new, at least in the way it's done. So I just want to build upon that, and I think the end user communities will keep growing, will keep educating, will keep working together, and this is a team effort that we are all in together. >> Well, Priyanka, congratulations again. We know your community background and strong community at the CNCF. Looking forward to seeing that both in the virtual events in the near term and back when we have physical events again in the future, so thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you for having me. >> All right. Be sure to check out thecube.net. You'll see all the previous events we've done with the CNCF, as well as, as mentioned, we will be helping keep cloud native connected at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon Europe, the virtual event in August, as well as the North American event later in the year. I'm Stu Miniman, and thank you for watching theCUBE. (smooth music)

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: Live from San Diego, California, it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, this is theCUBE's coverage of KubeCon, CloudNativeCon 2019. And a special segment, we're actually going to doing our 2020 predictions. I am Stu Miniman, joining me, my two co-hosts of the week. To my left is Justin Warren, who I believe's been to, you went to the first one? >> I've been to all four, yeah. >> All four of the North America shows. >> Yep. >> I personally have been now to three of the North American, as well as one in the Barcelona. And we have a first time KubeConner, but long time host of theCUBE and things, John Troyer to my right. Gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us. So first thing, the rapid fire. 12,000 in attendance. Last year 8,000, the year before 4,000. So, my math says that it will be 16,000 when we come next year to beautiful November in Boston, Massachusetts, which I can drive to. We've had snow in Austin, rain in San Diego. So, I'm predicting 60 to 70 degree weather in Boston, 'cause that never happens in Boston. Number of attendees next year, Justin? >> Well, it was doubling and now they have dropped it to 50%, so I reckon another 50%, I'll reckon 18 to 20,000. >> Stu: Oh, John? >> Yeah, I'll go higher. That many plus one. >> Okay, I feel like we'll do, I bet $1, $1. But, okay-- >> We have not hit peak Kubernetes yet. >> No. >> We definitely have not hit peak Kubernetes. One of the things, I keep looking for the theme of the show, and one of the things, we've been talking in some of the segments, is there needs to be simplification. When we talk about where we're at with cloud adoption, when we talk about some of these environments, there is a broad ecosystem. So, there needs to be some winnowing down of the technologies. We've seen some areas where things like MicroK8s and K3s to be able to be able to put Kubernetes at the edge. It's not that, that will replace Kubernetes, but things need to get simpler in some environments. Justin, I'll throw it to you first. Is simplification the theme of the show, is there something else that's grabbing you? >> The theme for me is that the money has arrived. We saw a little bit of that last year but this year it is definitely just the number of sponsors that we have here, the number of startups that we have here, the ecosystem, the number of parties, the VCs are here. This feels like a lot of other technology shows that we've been to before in their hay day. We are right here in the hay day of Kubernetes. So, I can see it getting bigger. Will there be consolidation? Yes, I think there will. But I think that this is going to broaden out further first. I don't think that we're quite at the point where things need to start collapsing in. I think we're still going to be exploring all the different options that we have. I think the theme is simplification, yes, I agree. But it's now going to be people trying to solve that problem by creating these higher-level services, managed-Kubernetes offerings. A lot of the different component projects that are there, we're going to see a lot of options where they try to manage that for you and make it easier to consume. But there will be several different attempts at that and not all of them are going to survive. >> Yeah, I'll go with you. Simplification's going to be an issue. Has to happen, we saw a lot of different stacks here at the show, if you go out on the show floor. A lot of people are trying to give you a generic platform. A general-purpose platform, maybe it has its own opinionated view of networking, or storage, or management, or security. But at the end of the day we need things on top of the platform. So, I'm hoping next year we see more things on top of the platform, more applications. We saw some big data applications this year. But people are still building engines and I want them to build cars, because not everybody can build the engine. >> Justin: Yes! >> Well, and actually, Justin, a question for you is when we talk about Kubernetes, there's so many people I interview here and they're like, "Well, no, "we know how to build it better than others "and when you want to go across all environments "we should do it." Is that, are we still going to see that for awhile? Or, can we all hold hands, and talk about open source and be able to just manage across all of these environments? >> Well, one of the key founding principles of Kubernetes is that you can operate it the same everywhere. If it's certified Kubernetes, it should function the same, no matter who's build of it it is. So, that just provides us a common platform that we then build on top of. So, I think the main differentiation's going to be on things like the tooling and the services that allow you to operate that base layer of Kubernetes. But that base layer of Kubernetes is about interesting as Ethernet. It's extremely pluggable and it's just ubiquitous, but no one really cares which brand of Ethernet you happen to be giving me. I care about all the stuff that I run on it. And that's what I think that we're going to see a lot more, I'm with you, John. We're going to see a lot more of those services. I'm seeing a bunch of startups at this show that are starting on that journey, they're providing a lot of things like database services, very highly-tuned monitoring and measurement telemetry systems. There's a big push to make sure that there is a certain amount of interoperability between these different services. Things like having open telemetry be the standard for sending telemetry information around. Because everyone knows that if we all build to Ethernet we're all going to have a much better time of it, than if we all start trying to come up with our own version of it and call it Banyan VINES, and FidoNet, and God knows what. >> Okay, I'm glad you brought up the example of Ethernet. First of all, I have no problem watching a 45-minute discussion of what 400 Gig's going to look like, and the challenge and the opportunities. And if you are talking Ethernet in someone's data center, for the most part they're going to run that on a single vendor because while there is interoperability, it's not until I go to the Internet, because layer two, I want to keep it single vendor, when I go layer three I want to do that. Is that, maybe it's not the best analogy but Kubernetes-- >> No, I think that's reasonable. And if you're trying to operate something across different environments then it's much easier if the two environments can talk to each other. Simple example that people tend to forget about is M&A. If one company goes and buys another one and I run Banyan VINES and you run, I don't know, FinLand or something, then we can't talk to each other, and integrating those two companies becomes impossible. But at least if we both have, you might have Juniper, I might have Cicso, those two network sets can still talk to each other. You might be running, I don't know ,Mesosphere, and someone else might be running Mirantis or Rantia, and that's their system for operating Kubernetes. Turns out, actually if you can operate it much the same, one of you can decide, you know what, we're going to operate everything with Rantia, 'cause we think that that's going to be the best thing for the holistic company. You may keep them separate. As long as you get the same outcome then it doesn't really matter. >> Yeah, that's why I think we aren't yet at peak Kubernetes. Those Kubernetes skills that are in high demand from a job market that people are being upskilled on, they're actually still going to be useful. Now, these stacks that these opinions that people are doing. I mean, they want us to talk about people over projects, right? That's a great philosophy, this is a very friendly community, it's very open source. But, cynically, I think, and sometimes people swap your company T-shirt for your project T-shirt that your company is the one that's behind. And that's kind of a, that's a little bit of a bait and switch. Yes, it's an open source stack. Yes, all the major vendors have open source, 100% open source stacks around Kubernetes. But they're all with different projects and they all pick their own projects. So, I think that is yet to be resolved. >> Well, it's interesting 'cause the thing that I heard is it used to be open source was something that people contribute to it. Now, the majority of people that contribute to open source do it as part of their job. So, there is some of that. Yes, I'm paid by company X, but my job is to participate in the community. There is a large company that got bought by $34 billion. They have a lot of contributors out there. Their job is open source, they are on those projects, they might switch from one project to another. We had Kelsey Hightower on today, he's like, "Hey, right, "but we need to think of people above project. "It's okay for them to move from one to the other "between projects or between companies." But, right, it is very much often companies that are behind the scenes and pushing people and dollars into these projects. One thing I like about the CNCF here is we do have, there's 129 end-user companies participating here, so we've reached a certain maturity level that they are driving it, not just companies driving it for the dollars. So, I guess the thing I want to ask though is, there's so many companies here, we started off the conversation this week, John, talking about Docker. And the cautionary tale of how many companies, when I asked, "What is your business model, what do you do?" Is, I created some cool new project. What does that mean? You look at the business model. You live right with Silicon Valley there. What are you seeing as you look forward? What do you expecting to see consistently? >> Oh sure, I mean, half the logos will be gone but they'll be swapped out for other logos, so that's all fine, right? If you have a point solution, as I was kind of pointing out, things are kind of stackifying. So, things need to consolidate from a buyer's perspective. A lot of the sessions here were about custom projects that people did, either in-house or for a customer. So, I think that's okay, that's the natural, it's the natural Cambrian explosion and then die off. >> Yep, creative destruction. (John laughing) That's the general point of how we do things. There's a lot of things that are basically a feature and you can't really build a company behind a feature. They're hoping that they will find some sort of pathway to money, we've seen some big acquisitions where they didn't really find a good route to money. That's fine, people will figure that out. And how you fund this development, Stu, I mean that's the perennial problem. At the moment it's possibly not the perfect solution but it's a pretty good one, in that we have developers are employed by a company that pays them to develop open source software. So, anyone can go and grab that software and then use it. So, we don't actually really depend on that company sticking around. >> And enterprise sales, it's still very expensive to have even a small booth here, and three or four people and nice T-shirts, and all of your swag, and you flew them here. And fly them all around the country to company after company, conference room after conference room. That is an expensive model to sell things. I mean, you need to have a fair amount of revenue. >> All right, so, Justin, a lot of progress, a lot of projects. >> Yeah. >> What's missing? Look out for 2020, is there an area or a space that needs to mature or needs work? What's your advice for this ecosystem? >> Well, for me it's all about the data. So, we've seen a lot of evolution in stateful sets and being able to manage state-based data within the Kubernetes ecosystem, a lot of progress on that, but there's still a long, long, long way to go. Also, just on the general operational tooling. So, the things that we are used to and have taken for granted in other traditional, like vSphere, or we've come from the VMware ecosystem. Simple things like higher availability. So, I need my data to always be available and I need to be able to have this managed. There's a lot of stuff in there but there's still a lot more stuff that needs to happen. Service mesh and that service discovery and making that easy enough for normal mortal humans to deal with, that still really isn't there. You kind of have to be a bit of a super genius to configure that and get it working and operating. So, there's still a lot of very hard work on these quite hard problems, to then make it look simple. >> Yeah, so, John, the one I want to throw to you is Dan Kohn came out on the keynote stage yesterday and he said, "Kubernetes has crossed the chasm, "yet most enterprises are still worried "about software failure." We know many people that are coming in new and shell-shocked when they come to look. What does the industry as a whole and this ecosystem, specifically, need to do to make sure that we don't come a year from now and say, "Wow, things slowed down "because we kind of couldn't get "the vast majority of people on board?" >> Well, I mean, we're going back to, I guess then the same thing, things have to be simpler. In times of uncertainty people either stop or they go to a trusted provider. There is, probably, although there's a high value on Kubernetes skills right now, that also means there's not enough folks. So, if you can't get the engineers. That was a problem in previous generations of some of these stacks, in that if you couldn't get enough engineers, or if the stack, if everybody had their own snowflake version of it and the skills were not transferable you could not move forward. So, I'm hoping we'll see more managed service providers. I'm hoping that we'll see more startups and services built on top of these existing infrastructures, I think we're seeing more of those. I see a lot of stuff in the operations space and kind of the SRE space, the incident management space. Kind of all the tooling you'll need to actually run these things in day two and beyond. And then, hopefully, the industry keeps pounding on digital transformation and process transformation. One project at a time, you start with one, you start small, you start tooling, you start tooling up, you get some small things under your belt and start to learn. But that's enterprise timeline. So, at a certain speed. >> All right, last thing, any aha moments, surprises, cool things as you've been going around the show? Justin? >> Oh, just walking into the show surprised me. Just how big it has gotten and how much energy there is here. It's amazing to me and I can just only see it getting bigger and, I hope, better. I am surprised by the reaction from people who haven't come into the Kubernetes ecosystem, I think. There's still a lot of people out there for whom this is a big surprise. That it's as big a show as this is, there are lots and lots of people out there who can't actually spell Kubernetes. So, there's a lot of work for us to go and do to figure out how we get those people to come into this ecosystem in a way that doesn't shock them and scare them away. >> Yeah, absolutely. Welcome to the party, those of you that had been joined. John? >> Hey, the thing that surprised me was this is both a multicloud show and a non-cloud show. This is the only show where people working in multiple public clouds can come together. So, that's one of the systemic forces causing it to grow. On the other hand, this is not a public cloud-only show. Over and over again, we talk to people here on theCUBE, I talk to people on the show floor, and most of their workloads, or many of their workloads, are on-premises, right? Kubernetes is fully functional and fully up to speed in private cloud, in people's data centers because it is useful. And they're starting to do that process tooling and process re-engineering, even on-site. And then they may be using a portfolio of different clouds. So, I think that was one of the surprising things to me is this was not 100% public cloud show. >> Yeah, and a little bit of caution I'll give there is we want to make sure we don't become complacent and say, oh, well, we could just kind of slide in what we were doing before and not make some change because the driver here, we've been talking about for decades now, was really kind of that application modernization. And Kubernetes and this whole, it is about cloud-native. It's not the Kubernetes, it's the cloud-native piece. >> You know what I didn't hear? I did not hear putting legacy apps on Kubernetes as much this year. Much quieter this year. >> So, and I'll just say, I'll highlight, we did an interview yesterday with the American Red Cross. Tech For Good, it's something that we've been highlighting, John, for especially helping lead the charge and make sure we highlight that. The Microsoft show, they very much talked about that this year. American Red Cross is saying, hey, we always want your dollars but we'd also love your skillset. So, if this community, and specifically Kubernetes, cloud-native ecosystem makes it easier. There's common tooling, something that I've been hearing a lot this year is when I go through that modernization I can hire the next-generation workforce. There's too many of those, oh, I'm doing it the old way. If I don't have somebody with 30 or 40 years experience in the industry, you won't understand our systems and we need that next generation of workforce to be able to get involved. So, love future jobs, Tech For Good, all good things. This community's always been strong on diversity and inclusion. And so, I guess final word I'll say, big shout-out to, of course, the CNCF, this event, they have a large menagerie that they need to take in here and manage, and they're doing a good job. There's always things to work on. They are listening and open. We have really appreciated the partnership. A huge shout-out, of course, to our sponsors that make it possible for us to do this. So, for Justin Warren, for John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, thanks so much. We definitely are excited for one more day. Tomorrow, as well as next year in 2020, Amsterdam and Boston. Please reach out always if you have any questions. And thank you so much for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live from San Diego, California, it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon, brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome to theCUBE here at KubeCon CloudNativeCon, 2019. Second day of three days, wall to wall coverage. I am Stu Miniman, John Troyer is my cohost for the three days, and we've had a great schedule, but this one will be super dope, of course, 'cause it is the one, the only >> That's the right phrase to use >> Kelsey Hightower >> to bring me out. >> who is now a principal developer advocate at Google Cloud. Kelsey, thanks so much for joining us. >> Well, thanks for having me. >> All right, let's start. You did a keynote yesterday and I actually heard, not only did it rain in San Diego, people were talking about allergies. They were grabbing their tissues, eyes seemed to be tearing. You had stepped back for a little bit. When I first came into this show, we've been doing it for four years, it was, you know, Kelsey Hightower and Kubernetes almost seem to get top billing of the show. You specifically stepped back for a little bit, and you're here this week. So, talk a little bit about that piece. >> Yeah, so I stepped back to do some serverless stuff, right? So I worked on some cloud function stuff at Google, launching the ghost support for cloud functions, and really trying to understand the serverless base by being in it, and that means stepping back from Kubernetes quite a bit. So the keynote, I wanted people to have emotion. So no live demos, no slides, no speaker notes, and then just telling stories from the last six years of being a part of the Kubernetes community, and making people feel something. And I think it resonated with folks, and, of course, people got a little teary-eyed. I gave people a cover, so we just kept saying the allergies are starting to flare up in the room, and we really connected with people. >> Awesome. So you came back, which means serverless not completely taking over and obviating what we've been doing here for years. >> Yeah, I think serverless is just another tool in the toolbox, and I didn't want to miss it. So before I put it in its category, I wanted to make sure that I got super deep with it, used it myself, gave it a fair shot, and it definitely deserves a place. But I think the idea of serverless is the thing that's going to stick. This idea of eliminating as much infrastructure as possible and then putting that everywhere we can. >> I want to bring that idea of a tool in the toolbox to what we're talking about at this show. >> Kelsey: Okay. >> So, you know, Kubernetes is one of the most hottest topic at the show. The CNCF, now I mean, there's dozens and dozens of projects here. Dan Kohn, when he kicked it off, talked about Minecraft. And it's like there's that board there with all the tools, and, oh boy, which one do I pick, and how do I use it? >> How do you look at where Kubernetes fits in the overall landscape? Obviously, 12,000 people, it's really exciting. Why is there so much excitement around something that I think is really, it becomes another tool in the tool shed and baked into the platform? >> I think Kubernetes represents a problem that most people have. If you went down the Linux and then virtualization path, then you ended up with a bunch of virtual machines that you need to glue together somehow. So if you look inside of what Kubernetes has, like the scheduler, how it takes in the pain of running a workload. If you're running VMs in Linux, this is a problem you already have, so Kubernetes just resonates with almost everyone that is using virtualization. This is why it's so popular. So it fits. Now every tool in the landscape may not resonate the same way because everyone doesn't have the same set of problems around the edges, but Kubernetes is a very obvious thing to anyone that's managing more than a handful of machines. >> Well, I think that brings up an interesting question of, as companies and people assemble the stacks, right, assemble the engines out of the components, do you have any thoughts on, well, I guess we could take it from a couple of different ways. But maybe as a person coming here for the first time, representing their team, getting started, maybe not involved online with upstream Kubernetes but trying to make sense of the landscape here and all the different, the zoo of different projects. >> Lots of new people here. You talk to people, I think, what, 50% or more of the people are brand-new. People have been ignoring, rightfully so, Kubernetes for four or five years. "Maybe I don't need it, I'm good where I am." But we're at a point now where you can't ignore it. VMware's offering Kubernetes, every conference you go, where it's KubeCon or not, this is the thing they're talking about. It's just like Linux was years prior, right? It's just the thing that people are doing. So now, you're coming to see for yourself first-hand. You're coming to ask people how's it going, now that we're five years in? There's a sense of maturity, things are slowing down, the ecosystem's getting a lot more mature around it. So you almost have no choice but to be here because now it's in your world. >> All right, so, there's some people that I've been seeing online that are still looking at this a little bit skeptically, and said, "You know, we've been down this path before." You know, "Oh, everybody's involved in Kubernetes." you know, "There's my Kubernetes "versus some of the other environments." How should we think about that? 'Cause as you said, it's going to be baked into VMware when they do project-specific, and they've got a couple of ways to get you to Kubernetes. Yeah, Microsoft just announced an update. Is it an inter-operability issue? Is this the universal backplane? Do you have a good analogy as to how we should be thinking about where we are today and where we need to go so that we don't repeat the sins of the past when it was the multi-vendor mess that really didn't solve the customer's problems. >> You're going to always have multi-vendors because there's too many customers for one vendor to satisfy. That's always going to be the case, there's no way around that. But the way I look at Kubernetes now is like, take the web. Click around, webpages, link them together. And out of that, we extracted REST. People can build APIs, we build tooling on top, cloud providers built APIs to manage infrastructure. So the REST component comes out of the larger picture of the web. And when we take the larger components of Kubernetes, and we extract out that Kubernetes API, you get Istio, you get these network control plans, you get people building 5G infrastructure using that Kubernetes model. You get all the cloud providers saying, "Now, if the world's going to have "this set of APIs that are based on Kubernetes, "then I can actually build a global control plane "because I can assume that Kubernetes' API everywhere." Not just for containers, also for networking, authorization, management systems. So it's only natural that people start moving up the stack, and I expect even more panes, ever more fragmentation, if you will, because now it's so much easier to explore a new idea, even if it's only for a smaller subset of the market. So I expect it to explode. >> Yeah, one of the things we've been looking at this year is really the simplicity of the offering. You had done Kubernetes the hard way a couple of years back. We've been looking at things like lightweight Kubernetes, the K3s. How are we with that simplicity of the overall solution and making sure that Kubernetes can reach its potential to get to all of those use cases and end points that you were talking about? >> Kubernetes' job is to manage the complexity. If you need to run in multiple regions across the globe, that is a set up complexity, Kubernetes has one way of addressing it by sitting on top of all those VMs globally, and then providing a set of APIs. That Kubernetes set up end cluster is going to be way more complex than a MicroK8s, where you have a single virtual machine where you install the components on one machine, you don't deal with networking, you're not dealing with multiple nodes. That flow is super-easy. I think I did a tweet for the Canonical folks. They have a tool called MicroK8s, you just run one command, you have a Kubernetes cluster, and off you go. And that's great for a developer, but as the underlying infrastructure gets more complex, I think the overall cluster, and the components that you need in that cluster, matches the complexity. So I think Kubernetes has proven to scale up, and now you can see it's scaling down. So I think it's one of these things that's adapted to complexity, versus having to jump off of the platform because it can't meet either range. >> Now, Kelsey, we've talked a little bit about both Kubernetes as this universal API, but also being embedded, right, and being below a lot of application layer and other management-layer things, I mean, did you think about talking to our fellow technologists, right? There are some people who are going to be, we've also used the metaphor, mechanics, right? There's some people who are going to be the mechanics, but, like, everybody drives. So, as we get to this level of maturity here now at KubeCon 2019, any advice on how people should pick? Do I need to, and also online we hear a lot about, "Oh, I don't need, I don't know if I need Kubernetes. "I don't know if my particular use case right now, "boy, I don't know if I want to go there." So, I mean, how should people be looking at it? And also up scaling, should every IT and technologist and developer be working towards Kubernetes? >> Absolutely not. >> Thank you. >> If you're managing a bunch of machines, you got two choices. You could build a lot of custom tooling and build something that looks like Kubernetes, most people don't have the time to do that. So what we want to do is say, look, a lot of people are collaborating on that obvious thing that you should build to manage that. Now if I give you 80% of your time back, you should go and fill in that gap between what Kubernetes brings to the table and what your developers want to actually do. And at the end of the day, it's always been the same thing. You check in code, it should adopt the company's best practice, and I should be able to get an end point and some debugging tools. That has always been the north star, even when there was virtualization, early days of cloud. Kubernetes is no different. The thing that Kubernetes represents, though, is that you don't have to build as much glue between either your own VW ware or your pre-early cloud. Kubernetes has built all that stuff way up to this line, so maybe you actually finish that CICD part you were supposed to do anyway. >> All right, so, Kelsey, every year we try to figure out and distill down the theme of the event. A couple of years ago, the service matched really extensions were going at it. Here, there's so many different pieces, it's a little tough to kind of pin down. We talked about some of the edge simplicity use cases, security has, of course, been a discussion for a couple of years. Anything that you've distilled so far or the things that you are finding most interesting and new, kind of at the edges of this whole ecosystem? >> This whole thing is a Swiss army knife, so it depends on who's holding it. Whatever problem they have, that's the piece of the tool that they're going to make front and center. So that's what this is. And right now I think there's a lot of confusion on, do I even need all the other components in this Swiss army knife? Some people are just like, "Well, this tool looks interesting. "I don't have a problem that this tool is for." And some people are actively creating a problem so they can use the other tools in the Swiss army knife. I think the biggest thing that I've seen in the last two years is, make the new thing work the old way. So you're getting the more traditional vendors showing up and adding their Kubernetes integrations, and they're making the new thing more familiar to the people who have the existing tool. And when I look around, that's the thing that I see arise. "Hey, that firewall you were using? "We now have Kubernetes support. "That security tool you were using? "We now have Kubernetes support." The security tool works fundamentally the same, it's just now easier to adopt and maybe make Kubernetes things that are deployed in it, leverage those thing. >> So you're saying that's a good thing, not a bad thing. >> It's a good thing, but it can also be dangerous in some cases where we may get complacent a little bit, and what we end up doing is recreating the world that we tried to run away from a little bit. We try to create a little distance and maybe rethink a few of these approaches, maybe eliminate some need for some of these things. But if we get stuck in recreating the old world on top of the new thing, it doesn't really benefit anyone if we did that for too long. >> Yeah, it's interesting 'cause you talk to the enterprise and only 20% of applications are in the cloud, and if you talk about, out of my entire portfolio, how many are really new Cloud Native applications? Its much smaller than that 20%. So we know it's the long pole in the tent of modernization, but you spend a lot of time talking to customers, you're traveling the world, what are some of the best things that you're seeing out here that are helping people adopt those new environments and not just stake a place in, as you said? >> Pragmatism and leadership, if I see those two things. If there is someone that can make a decision. I see Spinnaker, I see Jenkins, I see a thousand things, I see the options. Leadership is pick one. They roughly do the same exact thing. You get someone that knows what they're doing, hires someone, get some help, make it work. And then the pragmatism is just be honest about your velocity. You might only bring in the VMs, and then you go to containers. So, this all or nothing approach never worked. You know it doesn't work. So I think when you have those two fundamental things, then you see a lot of success. And it's not about the age of the enterprise, either. There are hundred-year-old companies are making it work because they have the leadership component, and they're very skeptical, so they approach the problem with pragmatism, so they actually get to production. Sometimes faster than the startups that are trying 7,000 things in more of a reckless fashion, the whole thing catches fire. So, those are the positive outcomes that, there's so many tools now. You have your traditional vendors now with skin in the game, giving you documentation. I think right now, if you've got those two components, you're on your path to success. >> Yeah, I guess last thing, I want to get your thoughts just on this community these days. A couple of the keynote speakers today really talked about project over company, and definitely the open-source ethos is front and center at our show here. Give us your viewpoint how the community's doing and any highlight you want to share. >> So I have one more thing on top of that hierarchy, is people over projects always. And then that means that the people should be able to say, "Hey, I am not wedded to this project forever. "There's going to be a time when we have to jump off, "there's going to be a time when we have to learn "from the other communities." And if you do that, then we can actually be on the straight path. If we put the projects too much front and center I think we start to miss the boat. Kubernetes, Kubernetes, and the rest of the world is moving on. And then we look up, we've missed it, and we actually didn't even get to contribute to the new thing. So I think the biggest part about this community is that hopefully we keep the thing going where we keep reminding people, it's people over these projects. And I think in my keynote, I was trying to address the idea that we're just kind of pacesetters. You come in, you contribute, all contributions are welcome, documentation, code, or leadership, and then sometimes you got to jump back out and allow someone else to come in and set the pace and let the ecosystem become the marathon and let it keep running. >> All right well, Kelsey, thank you so much for sharing with our community. I tell ya, I've had countless stories of people over the years that have talked about how they've reached out to you, you've helped them along the way, and I know everybody in this ecosystem really appreciates everything that you've helped to move this to where we are today. >> Awesome, thanks for having me. >> All right, for John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman. Super dope coverage of KubeCon CloudNativeCon continues. We'll be right back, thanks for watching theCUBE. (electronic beats)

Live from San Diego, California it's theCUBE! covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon brought to you by Red Hat a CloudNative computing foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, this is theCube's coverage of KubeCon, CloudNativeCon 2019 in San Diego I'm Stu Miniman with my co-host for the week, John Troyer, and happy to welcome to the program, Tom Phelan, who's an HPE Fellow and was the BlueData CTO >> That's correct. >> And is now part of Hewlett-Packard Enterprise. Tom, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thanks, Stu. >> All right, so we talked with a couple of your colleagues earlier this morning. >> Right. >> About the HPE container platform. We're going to dig in a little bit deeper later. >> So, set the table for us as to really the problem statement that HP is going to solve here. >> Sure, so Blue Data which is what technologies we're talking about, we addressed the issues of how to run applications well in containers in the enterprise. Okay, what this involves is how do you handle security how do you handle Day-2 operations of upgrade of the software how do you bring CI and CD actions to all your applications. This is what the HPE container platform is all about. So, the announcement this morning, which went out was HPE is announcing the general availability of the HPE container platform, an enterprise solution that will run not only CloudNative applications, are typically called microservices applications, but also Legacy applications on Kubernetes and it's supported in a hybrid environment. So not only the main public cloud providers, but also on premise. And a little bit of divergence for HPE, HPE is selling this product, licensing this product to work on heterogeneous hardware. So not only HPE hardware, but other competitors' hardware as well. >> It's good, one of the things I've been hearing really over the last year is when we talked about Kubernetes, it resonated, for the most part, with me. I'm an infrastructure guy by background. When I talk in the cloud environment, it's really talking more about the applications. >> Exactly. >> And that really, we know why does infrastructure exist? Infrastructure is just to run my applications, it's about my data, it's about my business processes >> Right. >> And it seems like that is a y'know really where you're attacking with this solution. >> Sure, this solution is a necessary portion of the automated infrastructure for providing solutions as a service. So, um, historically, BlueData has been specializing in artificial intelligence, machine learning, deep learning, big data, that's where our strong suit came from. So we, uh, developed a platform that would containerize those applications like TensorFlow, um, Hadoop, Spark, and the like, make it easy for data scientists to stand up some clusters, and then do the horizontal scalability, separate, compute, and storage so that you can scale your compute independent of your storage capacity. What we're now doing is part of the HPE container platform is taking that same knowledge, expanding it to other applications beyond AI, ML, and DL. >> So what are some of those Day-2 implications then uh what is something that folks run into that then now with an HPE container platform you think will eliminate those problems? >> Sure, it's a great question, so, even though, uh, we're talking about applications that are inherently scalable, so, AI and ML and DL, they are developed so they can be horizontal- horizontally scalable, they're not stateless in the true sense of the word. When we say a stateless application, that means that, uh, there is no state in the container itself that matters. So if you destroy the container, reinstate it, there's no loss of continuity. That's a true stateless or CloudNative application. Uh, AI and ML and DL applications tend to have configuration information and state information that's stored in what's known as the Root Storage of the compute node, okay, what's in slash, so you might see, um, per node configuration information in a configuration file in the Etsy directory. Okay, today, if you just take standard off the shelf Kubernetes, if you deploy, um, Hadoop for example, or TensorFlow, and you configure that, you lose that state when the container goes down. With the HPE container platform, we are, we have been moving forward with a, or driving, a open source project known as KubeDirector. A portion of KubeDirector, of the functionality is to preserve that, uh, Root Storage so that if a container goes down, we are allowed- we are enabled to bring a Nether Instance of that container and have it have the same Root Storage. So it'll look like a just a reboot to the node rather than a reinstall of that node. So that's a huge value when you're talking about these, um, machine learning and deep learning applications that have the state in root. >> All right, so, Tom, how does KubeDirector fit compared to compare contrast it, does it kind of sit aside something like Rook, which was talked about in the keynote, talking about being able to really have that, uh, that kind of universal backplate across all of my clusters >> Right, you're going to have to be >> Is that specific for AI and ML or is this >> I, well, that's a great question, so KubeDirector itself is a Kubernetes operator, okay, uh, and we have implemented that, the open-source communities joining in, so, but what it allows us, KubeDirector is, um, application agnostic, so, you could author a YAML file with some pertinent information about the application that you want to deploy on Kubernetes. You give that YAML file to the KubeDirector operator, it will then deploy the application on your Kubernetes cluster and then manage the Day-2 activities, so this is beyond Helm, or beyond KubeFlow, which are deployment engines. So this also has, well, what happens if I lose my container? How do I bring the services back up, and those services are dependent upon the type of application that's there. That's what KubeDirector does. So, KubeDirector allows a new application to be deployed and managed on Kubernetes without having to write a operator in Go Code. Makes it much easier to bring a new application to the platform. >> Gotcha, so Tom, kind of a two-part question, first part, so, uh, you were one of the co-founders of BlueData >> And now with HPE, there's, sometimes I think with technology, some of them are kind of invented in a lab, or in a graduate student's head, others come out of real world experience. And, uh, you're smiling 'cause I think BlueData was really built around, uh, y'know, at least your experience was building these BlueData apps. >> This is a hundred percent real world experience. So we were one of the real early pioneers of bringing, um, these applications into containers y'know, truth be told, when BlueData first started, we were using VMs. We were using OpenStack, and VM more. And we realized that we didn't need to pay that overhead it was possible to go ahead and get the same thing out of a container. So we did that, and we suffered all the slings and arrows of how to make the, um, security of the container, uh, to meet enterprise class standards. How do we automatically integrate with active directory and LDAP, and Kerberos, with a single sign on all those things that enterprises require for their infrastructure, we learned that the hard way through working with, y'know, international banking organizations, financial institutions, investment houses, medical companies, so our, our, all our customers were those high-demand enterprises. Now that we're apart of HP, we're taking all that knowledge that we acquired, bringing it to Kubernetes, exposing it through KubeDirector, where we can, and I agree there will be follow on open-source projects, releasing more of that technology to the open-source community. >> Mhm that was, that was actually part-two of my question is okay, what about, with now with HPE, the apps that are not AI, ML and you nailed it, right, >> Yeah. >> All those enterprise requirements. >> Same problems exist, right, there is secure data, you have secure data in a public cloud, you have it on premise, how do you handle data gravity issues so that you store, you run your compute close to your data where it's necessary you don't want to pay for moving data across the web like that. >> All right, so Tom, platforms are used for lots of different things, >> Yes. >> Bring us inside, what do you feel from your early customers, some of the key use cases that should be highlighted? >> Our key use cases were those customers who were very interested, they had internal developers. So they had a lot of expertise in house, maybe they had medical data scientists, or financial advisors. They wanted to build up sandboxes, so we helped them stand up, cookie-cutter sandboxes within a few moments, they could go ahead and play around with them, if they screwed them up, so what? Right, we tear them down and redo it within moments, they didn't need a lot of DevOps, heavy weight-lifting to reinstall bare-metal servers with these complex stacks of applications. The data scientist that I want to use this software which just came out of the open-source community last week, deployed in a container and I want to mess it up, I want to tighten, y'know, really push the edge on this and so we did that. We developed this sandboxing platform. Then they said, okay, now that you've tested this, I have it in queue A, I've done my CI/CD, I've done my testing, now I want to promote it into production. So we did that, we allowed the customer to deploy and define different quality of service depending on what tier their application was running in. If it was in testing dev, it got the lowest tier. If it was in CI/CD, it got a higher level of resource priority. Once it got promoted to production, it got guaranteed resource priority, the highest solution, so that you could always make sure that the customer who is using the production cluster got the highest level of access to the resources. So we built that out as a solution, KubeDirector now allows us to deploy that same sort of thing with the Kubernetes container orchestrator. >> Tom, you mentioned blue metal, uh, bare-metal, we've talked about VMs, we've been hearing a lot of multicloud stories here, already today, the first day of KubeCon, it seems like that's a reality out in the world, >> Can you talk about where are people putting applications and why? >> Well, clearly, uh, the best practices today are to deploy virtual machines and then put containers in virtual machines, and they do that for two very legitimate reasons. One is concern about the security, uh, plane for containers. So if you had a rogue actor, they could break out of the container, and if they're confined within the virtual machine, you can limit the impact of the damage. One very good, uh, reason for virtual machines, also there's a, uh, feeling that it's necessary to maintain, um, the container's state running in a virtual machine, and then be allowed to upgrade the the Prom Code, or the host software itself. So you want to be able to vMotion a virtual machine from one physical host to another, and then maintain the state of the containers. What KubeDirector brings and what BlueData and HP are stating is we believe we can provide both of those functionalities on containers on bare-metal. Okay, and we've spoken a bit about today already about how KubeDirector allows the Root File System to be preserved. That is a huge component of of why vMotion is used to move the container from one host to another. We believe that we can do that with a reboot. Also, um, HPE container platform runs all virtual machines as, um, reduced priority. So you're not, we're not giving root priority or privileged priority to those containers. So we minimize the attack plane of the software running in the container by running it as an unprivileged user and then tight control of the container capabilities that are configured for a given container. We believe it's just enough priority or just enough functionality which is granted to that container to run the application and nothing more. So we believe that we are limiting the attack plane of that through the, uh and that's why we believe we can validly state we can run these containers on bare-metal without, without the enterprise having to compromise in areas of security or persistence of the data. >> All right, so Tom, the announcement this week, uh is HP container platform available today? >> It will be a- we are announcing it. It's a limited availability to select customers It'll be generally available in Queue 1 of 2020. >> All right, and y'know, give us, y'know, we come back to KubeCon, which will actually be in Boston >> Yes. >> Next year in November >> When we're sitting down with you and you say hugely successful >> Right. >> Give us some of those KPIs as to y'know >> Sure. >> What are your teams looking at? >> So, we're going to look at how many new customers these are not the historic BlueData customers, how many new customers have we convinced that they can run their production work loads on Kubernetes And we're talking about I don't care how many POCs we do or how many testing dev things I want to know about production workloads that are the bread and butter for these enterprises that HP is helping run in the industry. And that will be not only, as we've talked about, CloudNative applications, but also the Legacy, J2EE applications that they're running today on Kubernetes. >> Yeah, I, uh, I don't know if you caught the keynote this morning, but Dan Kohn, y'know, runs the CNCF, uh, was talking about, y'know, a lot of the enterprises have been quitting them with second graders. Y'know, we need to get over the fact that y'know things are going to break and we're worried about making changes y'know the software world that y'know we've been talking about for a number of years, absolutely things will break, but software needs to be a resilient and distributed system, so, y'know, what advice do you give the enterprise out there to be able to dive in and participate? >> It's a great question, we get it all the time. The first thing is identify your most critical use case. Okay, that we can help you with and, and don't try to boil the ocean. Let's get the container platform in there, we will show you how you have success, with that one application and then once that's you'll build up confidence in the platform and then we can run the rest of your applications and production. >> Right, well Tom Phelan, thanks so much for the updates >> Thank you, Stu. >> Congratulations on the launch >> Thank you. >> with the HP container platform and we look forward to seeing the results in 2020. >> Well I hope you invite me back 'cause this was really fun and I'm glad to speak with you today. Thank you. >> All right, for John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, still watch more to go here at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon 2019. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (energetic music)

>> Announcer: Live from Copenhagen, Denmark, it's theCUBE! Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and it's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, everyone. This is theCUBE's exclusive live coverage here in Copenhagen, Denmark for KubeCon 2018. I'm John Furrier with my cohost this week, Lauren Cooney, and our next guest, Ed Warnicke, distinguished consulting engineer with Sysco Systems, CUBE alum. Great to see you, welcome back to theCUBE. >> Good to be back. >> So great developer action, end of day one. We're going to be here all day tomorrow. So day one's kind of coming into the books. Your thoughts on what's happening here. Different crowd but active. >> No extremely active. Actually, one of the things I've noticed, and this is sort of a subtle point when you've been around a lot of open source projects is you have a lot of people who are new to the Kubernetes community are coming in. And one of the things I found extremely heartening is, they've got a really organized approach to it. When they did their developer summit, they had an entire track for bringing new contributors on. They've just revamped their documentation to help people that are here, and they're finding better and better ways to articulate the things that people need to hear to help them make the leap to Cloud Native. 'Cause one of the underappreciated things about Cloud Native is that it's different from the move to Cloud 1.0 that we made a few years ago, is that Cloud Native is not a lift and shift behavior. You have to change the way you think about doing your job. >> And that's the global platform. This is not just a transformation process. It's a lifetime transformation. >> Absolutely. >> Huge personnel issue. People process technology, technology last one. >> Ed: Have you accepted Cloud Native into your heart? >> I have come to terms with my-- (Ed laughing) lift and shift problem that I have, and I'm now aware, self-aware of Cloud Native. >> The first step is to admit you have a problem. (John chuckling) The making amends to your infrastructure takes longer. >> I mean, look if-- >> And you would know, so. (laughing) Well, anyways. >> We're all working on it. >> So, I have a question for you here. As you were talking about how you're seeing a lot of new developers coming on in and things along those lines. I'm also running into a lot of new developers at the hotel, at dinner, just walking around and having discussions. Where do you see these guys coming from? I see them coming from banks, from large technology companies that are based in Europe. Where are you seeing these folks? >> So that ends up matching very closely with what I'm seeing as well. From all over the place. From people who finance large energy projects, right? From all areas of finance. Basically, all the sorts of people who have big compute problems are starting to turn up at the Cloud Native world because this is literally where you solve those problems. And I think that's part of what's driving the ecosystem is, the folks in Kubernetes made a number of incredibly intelligent decisions early on about how their architecture was built in terms of the modularity and expandability of it. And the result is that you get lots of people with lots of energy coming in saying, "I have a problem like this." There's an obvious well-worn path to try and put together a proposed solution for solving problems like this. And they engage with the community. One of the things that you're seeing just in terms of how the community grows itself is, they've got special interest groups, SIGs for various areas in Kubernetes. They've now had to spawn working groups that come under them. You're just seeing things like Kubernetes proposals for how you're going to do things coming to far. So there's a lot of the maturity process that you expect to deal with the scale of people who want to solve their problems this way. >> So you're actually not seeing sprawl. You're seeing highly organized groups coming together in a way that can make the platform more positive. >> Yeah, absolutely. Not only am I not seeing sprawl, but I'm starting to see highly intelligent things being said by the people who work at what we think of as the core of Kubernetes. So I've heard a number of people make the comment that they expect the Kubernetes core to actually shrink in terms of what it offers because the broader ecosystem is picking up so much of the slack. So this sort of core APIs of, this is what is Kubernetes without having picked out some options that meet your needs, is keeping itself very tight while having architected it in a way where you could have this broad ecosystem without the kinds of problems you sometimes get with sprawl in other communities. >> So whilst you want to get bigger, but you've got to get smaller to get bigger. >> In some sense, yeah. You have to decide what's really important to get right in the core and really nail it. >> What are they getting right, in your opinion? What's right about it that's going on? You mentioned some of the smart decisions that they're making. >> So, a couple of the things that they've gotten really, really right are our relentless focus on developer needs. So I see this particularly in networking, and I think we've talked about this before. Developers don't want to know about subnets. They don't want to know about L2 segments. They don't even want to know about IP addresses, frankly. What they really care about is two things. Reachability and isolation. Everybody can talk to everybody unless they decide you should be isolated. And service discovery and service running. Those are the only two things they care about, and wouldn't you know it! In Kubernetes, you have network policies that control the reachability and isolation and services that do services discovery and service routing for you. So they've absolutely nailed the fundamental developer needs. >> Made you pain point. >> Yeah. >> So what's your take on just the ecosystem. Obviously, we've commented, and this is always a dangerous game with communities, is logo farm, everyone's here, right? >> Yeah, I mean, they took the CNCF logos and probably, I think they broke them into three categories now. I'm not exactly sure what that means. >> John: A whole new sponsorship level for-- >> Architecture? I'm not sure. (John and Ed laughing) But, Ed, maybe you could provide some clarity here. >> Well, I mean, there is a certain risk in being loved to death, right? Kubernetes is full blown into what I will sometimes call crises of success, which is, you are succeeding so wildly that it's beginning to be a problem. And that's good to see. But I think you're starting to see certain categories of things that are emerging. And there was a good set of readouts from the various SIGs to Kubernetes yesterday in the developer summit. So you've got a bunch of stuff around networking. You have a bunch of things around storage. These are sort of fundamental infrastructure issues. But you have a bunch of things, literally, about how so we expand the Kubernetes platform. How does that work? How do we produce the constructs we need to solve the various problems that are arising, and those things are all sort of progressively moving forward. And we're getting to sort of the interesting point where the people who did the original turn of the APIs are being really blunt and honest saying, "Look! "These are the things we got right, "and these are the things we got wrong." And there's a lot to be said for having that level of honesty with yourself on stage in public, right? When you're the guy who wrote the code, it's unequivocally your mistake. And being able to stand up and say, "Look, "we got this one wrong." >> But that's the community trust that you have, and that's what makes the community. >> And that trust goes both ways. It's the trust of the community in that leader standing on the stage, but it's also the trust of that leader that we're going to move fast, we're going to do things right, but there's always a turn of the crank to do things better. And we got to be straightforward about that. >> And their self-awareness around the iteration is key. They're putting their egos at the door, checking it at the door, focusing on the advancement. I got to get your thoughts, from both of you guys, I want to ask you guys both a question. I know that you're doing a lot a work with some start-ups, and you with Cisco, the big company. What's interesting about this ecosystem is, the balance between the big players and the enablement for the small start-ups to be successful. We had a variety of start-ups here with news on theCUBE. This is the give get between sharing in projects where there's a balance and everyone can thrive and survive and grow together. Thoughts on that balance. Start-ups have needs, but they're not as big as the big guys. So what's your thoughts on-- >> Why don't you start, Ed. >> Well, to begin with, we can't do everything much as we would like to. Back to the self-honesty, you have to be honest with yourself about that. And nobody has a monopoly on the good ideas. And so you really have to engage with the ecosystem and figure out how different aspects of the problem knit together. I've had a lot of interesting conversations. I, personally, have some interest in what I sort of call unified IO. So converged networking storage. So I'm talking to a lot of folks who are doing storage stuff, lot a little start-ups that are doing really cool things with storage about things we can do to help them there from the network side, and they're excited about that, right? And it's that, that's the sort of open source spirit that makes it possible to have all these start-ups because, I'll be really frank, most of these start-ups, if they were having to try and build the thing themselves, they're simply not resourced to do it. But with so much support from the community in the broad, on a relatively thin start-up budget, you can move mountains. >> Yeah, if you tap the formula properly, that's the key. >> The start-ups are getting more and more sophisticate about tapping that formula because only... Getting a good product is only a very small part of the equation. You also have to get the connection with the community because you have to make sure, even if you're entirely self-interested, if you build a thing, there will be a thing in the open source that does that. And it is a fundamental truth in the modern era that 80% of the value or more of all software is its connection to everything else in the ecosystem. >> Lauren, I want to get your thoughts on this. You're doing this now as a new start-up, you're a founder of and running, but you've built programs. Modern architectures at play here. You're seeing microservices growth phenomenal. Cloud Native is just whole nother ball game, going to a whole nother level. As you're engaging out there, what are you seeing for this modern community formula playbook, whatever you want to call it. There's a way to do things now at a whole nother level that this is going. >> No, I-- >> Your thoughts. >> I definitely agree. I think the developer experience is really key, making it simple, making it just seamless, right? So folks don't have to wait to download something, or they don't have to wait for, you know. They can just click a couple buttons through a GUI and make it really, really simple, especially those on-boarding. What I see from the start-up side is a lot of... This is interesting because I think it's important. A lot of start-ups coming from companies that wouldn't allow them to do open source inside the companies. So they're leaving these larger companies, and they're doing start-ups. They're raising pretty good capital for seed rounds and A rounds. And I think, this is something that's pretty hot right now and we want to take a look at. And the VCs are definitely looking. >> What about the big companies that we all know, obviously Cisco, IBM, you see Amazon here. They have huge scale. Even Microsoft has had developer programs been successful over the years, we all know that. What's the modern tweak that they're making that you're seeing work? >> Oh, I think it's the small teams. Adrian was on here earlier talking about microservices and micro-teams, and I think he's absolutely right. You have to have teams that are building these services that are moving quite quickly and doing it in a way that's rapid enough to keep up or be ahead of the market. >> The micro-team point, I think, is actually really apropos because... This is going to sound very engineering propellor-head, but the management overhead gets to be quite steep when you try and do anything with big teams, right? So you got to have very loose coupling to everything else in the system, which is exactly what Cloud Native is about. And that's what you see not only in the start-ups but you see these sort of hybrid approaches emerge, where you have a start-up that has a small team and another start-up that has a small team that's nearby and a large company like Cisco that has a small team, and there's an interaction between all of these. And we're sort of operating as the growing up of this larger team completely across boundaries. It'll resolve actual user problems. >> I think it's a historic time. I think you guys are right on. This is such an exciting time for, if you're an engineer, software developer, or anyone in large-scale systems, and building applications is going to a whole nother level. Look at blockchain right around the corner, decentralized applications is coming soon. We won't go there in this interview 'cause it's KubeCon, but I got to get your take. What's your view so far of what's working here, hallway conversations you're having? What are some of the things going on here that someone who's not here might want to know about? >> I tend to be very focused on networking things, so the thing that I'm most excited about that's happening here is, the entire world seems to be getting meshy, right? So there's a huge excitement around service mesh and Istio, which I think is extremely well-placed. The fundamental thing that's really happening there is, they're progressively taking parts of the problem that you're not good at if you're writing a microservice, and they're pulling them out into a sidecar envoy so that you don't have to worry about service discovery and service routing. You don't have to worry about the policies for how you're going to figure out what things you do about getting to the next guy in the chain of the work. You don't have to worry about even things as simple as making sure that you respond to faults well, right? And there's a whole new set of ways that you think about problems in this space that's emerging there. One of the things that I'm actually really excited about that's also meshy is when you get to things like people who have less common network problems. So the operators with NFV, people who have more sophisticated network needs. We're starting to reimagine that stuff in the language of service mesh, right? So rather than trying to force all the legacy thinking about networking into Cloud Native where it's not wanted, we try and recast the problems we have into Cloud Native ways of thinking about them. And I think that ends up being intensely powerful. It's, frankly, almost overwhelming because there's so much conceptually going on in this space that you want to be able to draw on for the palette for the things that you're painting. >> Yeah, I mean, it's your point earlier about, and you were kind of joking but serious. This is a mind melt, you got to buy in to the philosophy of this new era of... (Ed laughing) Yeah, just kind of buy into, the Cloud Native is a global platform. It is a fundamental new thing. It's not just a methodology, it's a new way. >> It's a new way of thinking about things. The C in Cloud Native does not stand for container. Container is the smallest possible chunk of this. If you just slap all your applications into containers and try and do a lift and shift, you're going to fall on your face really hard. >> John: In what areas? Just like, what? >> Well, I'll give you a really simple example. Let's say that I have an application that I'm running in vApps, right? And I've got my big database VM. I've got my big web front VM. So I pick them up, I containerize them, I drop them into Kubernetes. So I've got one replica of my database VM and one replica of my web front VM, and that's going to break sometime in the first 24 hours. Because I need to, basically, pick them up and say, "OK, I need a bunch of replicas that are dynamically coming up for all of these things. I need the services to wire mesh them together." So for whatever reason, I lose some number of my replicas, that everything comes back up and goes forward and we never even notice, right? In some sense, the ideal situation is, you have a major bug in your code, right? Let's say you have a piece of code that's leaking memory and it dies every 24 hours. You want, if you think about it right and you deploy it 'cause you don't know you have this bug, you won't even notice that you screwed up that bug because the infrastructure will protect you from it. But if you just try and lift and shift, you're not going to have a happy experience because it's not going to work the way you expect it to. >> And then monitoring tools are getting better, too, and so if you're coming in on the other side you get that. Well, and thanks so much for the commentary. Great, great summary of the event. Any surprises here for you? Any ah-ha moments or revelations or epiphanies or any kind of surprises, good or bad or ugly? >> One of the things I was very impressed with is, I'm very impressed with what you can do with no code. I don't know if you saw that keynote this morning. >> Lauren: With Kelsey. >> In response to Dan Kohn's point about all the sort of total attack surface area. Kelsey got on stage and did the no code project, which has perfect security for whatever it is that you deploy it for. The fact that you can get on code, do something like that, move an entire audience of thousands of people, that's impressive. You don't see speakers who do that very often. That was, I wouldn't say shocking, but very much a pleasant surprise. And it speaks very much to the code of the community. The keynotes today were some of the best I've ever seen. I am not a keynote person, I seldom attend them. The keynotes today were extremely well-done. They had good energy and they were relevant. The walking through of the evolution of the community in brief punctuated explanations of what's going on and why they're important, I've never seen it done better. >> Yeah, they were hitting their marks well. Well, great, thanks for coming on, Ed. Great to see you. >> Yep. >> Thank you, Ed. >> This is commentary from Copenhagen, Denmark. It's theCUBE coverage of the CNCF, Cloud Native Compute Foundation, part of the Linux Foundation, KubeCon 2018 in Europe. I'm John Furrier, Lauren Cooney. Thanks for watching. Be right back. (electronic musical flourish)

>> (narrator) Live from Copenhagen Denmark, it's theCUBE covering Kubecon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and it's ecosystem partners. >> Hello and welcome to theCUBE. Exclusive coverage of Kubecon 2018 here in Europe. The Linux Foundation, theCUBE's coverage. Again, we're covering Kubecon, Cloud Native Conference, part of the CNCF. I'm John Furrier, host this week here in Europe with Lauren Cooney. Lauren, great to see you. >> Thank you. It's great to be here. >> Cloud, CloudNative is hot, obviously the Cloud Native Compute Foundation, CNCF, part of the Linux Foundation, driving really a pretty incredible growth. >> This is tremendous. >> Onboard and the logos, it's just pretty massive growth in microservices. >> It's just, you're seeing so many interesting things that are actually coming to this show. You know, A there's over 4,000 people here I heard. You know the taxi line was 20 people deep this morning to actually get here for the keynote. And I got to say that, you know, some of the technologies that are coming out are just really tremendous. I mean, we've got some great folks that are going to be coming on the show. Lew Tucker from Cisco and then we've got Tyler Jewell whose going to be talking about a new Cloud Native programming language. I think that's pretty interesting. >> And we've got some great influences as well. We're going to get the commentary. But the big story is, we're in Copenhagen Denmark. Sun's shining. It was raining yesterday but again, great European city. Feels like Amsterdam, got the canals. But the growth in Europe is just, it feels like I'm in North America in just terms of the volume. It's not like a satellite show. Normally in Europe, you see kind of the U.S., North America big tent events and then Europe's kind o' like a sidecar, no pun intended event. But no, it's pretty massive. I mean, you're seeing great developer uptake here in Europe. Cloud is hot. Kubernetes is the talk of the show, >> You know, I, >> SDO among other things. >> Exactly, you know, I think, I've been talking to folks around the conference center and so many of them as actually learning this for the first time and bringing it back to their, you know, large banks or some of their employers, you know, huge European companies that are actually looking to adopt this. And I think it's just phenomenal. >> I was chatting with Abby Kearns last night. I told her I'd give her a quick plug here on theCUBE. She's CEO of Cloud Foundry and we were having a chat. She just did a survey as part of the Cloud Foundry Group that found that outside of our bubble in Silicon Valley and certainly in the influencer sphere, most people have heard of Kubernetes, but actually don't know what it is and kind o' where it's going to be applied. It's one of those things where it's really taken the world by storm, certainly in the classic enterprises but application developers are seeing the goodness of what Kubernetes will do when you look at multiple workloads, workload portability, microservices as the growth of applications become cloudified. >> I think it's >> Kubernetes is key. >> It's key and I think the projects that really are inside of the CNCF are obviously super key as well, like Spyfy, who actually detects kind of workloads and types and you know, does that in an automated way. So, you know, the user doesn't have to figure that out anymore. I think those technologies are really the ones that are going to be you know, changing the landscape of platforms, you know, now and to come. >> Yeah. So Dan Kohn's up on stage, Lew Tucker's up on stage talking about multiclouds from Cisco's perspective. Lauren, you're out there on the streets working with some startups and big companies as they start to transform cloud, what do you see as the key themes of the show, what are the notable highlights for you that you see on the agenda and what are some of the things you're looking for this week in Europe? >> Well, I'm definitely looking to find out really what the news here is. You know, we've got some new projects. We've got some new end users. We've got some awards that are handed out. I really want to get to the root of what's new and what's happening. I think that there are some interesting things that are happening around. You know, we know that growth is explosive in this community. I think that, you know, is very clear. What I don't know is, you know, kind of clear to me yet at least, is really how large CNCF has gotten and how it really going to kind o' fit together and how users are going to take advantage of that entire ecosystem because they're just so many partners now and users. How do you actually pull that together in a way that's going to be workable from, you know, the perspective of a platform? >> To me the big story I like here and certainly what's notable is, and worth talking about is the role Google's playing. If you look at this show, you got some Microsoft here with Azure but really Google's at the centerpiece of this. See Red Hat and all the other industry players are here as well. But Google is driving a lot of open source standards. This is the real kind o', I won't say anti-AWS show but it's kind o' like you got Amazon re:Invent and then you got everybody else. And this is, this show represents to me everybody else because there's a real emphasis on multicloud and workload portability again, not getting a lot into one cloud. Google's pretty upfront about that and they're betting on open source to be that lever to get a good position in the cloud game. >> Well it has to be and I think really what's interesting to is AWS did show up here and they had a, you know, I was actually bouncing between some of the trainings that were going on with Fido, one of the projects and also, you know, what was going on with AWS. They call it their awesome day. And there were a lot of folks attending and a lot of folks interested. So I think it's going to be an interesting game here John. >> Well we have Adrian Cockcroft coming on, obviously, he's with AWS. He's leading the open source efforts for Amazon. And again, not to poke at Amazon but, you know, Amazon is so busy and they announce so much at re:Invent, they're so ahead of the game on cloud, cloud scale, just a number of services that Amazon... (techno music) the cloud has had significant impacts. We covered Amazon's earnings last week, again, at 50% increase. The profit that AWS is throwing off is so notable and so impressive that it really is a bellwhether to me on terms of this cloud transformation. And the key is applications. That is the number one focus we're seeing and how that makes the cloud scale an impact. What are you looking for with applications? What's interesting you, what's interested you there with the applications? >> Any applications that are running from public to, and private across that environment but I want to see multi-public cloud environments as well as on, you know, our private environments too. That to me is interesting. >> Well I want to get your thoughts on another topic that we're going to talk about this week and that is the role of the personnel inside the organization for cloud transformations. So for instance, the role of the admin operators out there, or admins and operators. Certainly at Cisco, DevNet Create that we were recently at, the role of the network manager is moving much more cloud oriented program or infrastructure. But you're seeing Google starting to talk about things like automation is good but yet the role of an operator, they call it at NASA a Site and Reliability Engineer, as the key position for cloud, what's your thought on the personnel equation for cloud within an enterprise within large companies. >> Well the SRE is the new hot role to have, right? I think that there is an increase interest in that audience because they are actually the ones that are troubleshooting a lot of this and looking at a lot of what this strategy is and where to take these things. I think that you know, it's also interesting because as people are looking to aspire to different roles, this is one of the ones that has become more established and is kind of shined upon in the developer world right now. And it's going to be interesting to see if that stays that way or if, you know, they're going to be, you know, what's kind of going to happen there. >> Thoughts on microservices in context, SDO service meshes. Again, last Kubecon we talked about SDO, the service mesh piece of it, with the notion of a modern architecture. How is that playing out in your mind? >> I think it's playing out pretty well. Everyone seems to be on the ciscobus. I also think that, you know, when we talk to Lew Tucker for example, I think we really need to ask him where he sees it going and what's going on with Cisco and the ecosystem at large on that. But everyone is playing and playing nice with those guys. >> I'm interested to get the security update. We're going to have some Google folks on. I want to find out what's new with that and also Google Next is coming up in July, their big cloud show. I'm expecting it be that pretty large event. Google is really going all in on cloud. Certainly, the cloud group within Google's got a lot of investment, a lot of enterprise folks. But the security question in Kubernetes is an interesting one. How to deploy, you know, endpoint security or is it an IOT thing? Is it ship set to operating system to application? I mean this is the open question on Kubernetes is security. >> I don't have a good answer for you there. I think that, you know, that is something we definitely need to dig into as a community and as developers. It's something that, you know, I think is was mentioned in the keynote today and I think we got to continue to to poke at that one. >> Awesome. Well we're here kicking off day one of two days of coverage here at CNCFs Kubecon, John Furrier with Lauren Cooney. Back with more live coverage here in Europe in Denmark. We're in Copenhagen for cube coverage at Kubecon 2018 Europe. (techno music)

>> Live from Seattle, Washington, it's theCUBE On the Ground! Covering KubeCon 2016! Brought to you by The Linux Foundation and Red Hat. Here's your host, John Furrier. >> Okay, we are here in Seattle for a special CUBE On the Ground coverage of CloudNativeCon and KubeCon really born out of the KubeCon last year, now called CloudNativeCon. Really great event, dynamic, lot of developers here. This is where the players are. It's really one of those events that's really special and we've been here all day getting ready to get kicked out of the room. The party's going to kick off at 7 o'clock. There's an election going on, the numbers are crazy. And of course we have the CEO of CoreOS, Alex Polvi, who's here, he's been on theCUBE many times. CoreOS, one of the main players in what is the biggest trend of the past few years that has really catapulted cloud and the developers together, certainly in the enterprise and the cloud as containers, and now Kubernetes, great to see you. >> Great to see you as well, John. >> You guys have been in the heart of the battle and part of the growth and the journey. It's been a battle, it's been fun. Do you have scar tissue? You guys have, with Docker's been out there, you guys have been there, you've been at war, you've been friends, just frenemies. And so in the spirit of growth, this is what's happening in the industry. But more than ever, now you're starting to see an acceleration. Acceleration with Kubernetes as a catalyst. Your thoughts on this trend, because now the container mojo is out there, people get it, they see the value. Now they go, okay, with Kubernetes, this brings you in a primitive at an abstraction that I can work with. How is that changing the game right now? >> I think we're going through the biggest transformation we've seen in infrastructure since cloud was invented. So you know, you have it on these cycles, and cloud, while Amazon has been going for, what, 10 years now, almost? >> Ten years, yeah. >> Right, and so, naturally, you'll see things emerge, and what's happening now is a you know this kind of new layer popping out. And containers and distributed systems are I believe are the next major area of infrastructure investment and beyond cloud itself. >> So talking about the open source community role here, because now you're starting to see the open source community get on this. We had Jim Walker who was on, who works on your team. Ex-Hortonworks guy, kind of knows the big data space, seen that movie before, commenting that most of the people born after 2000 don't even know what loading Linux on a machine is. So they're born cloud native. And so, this is a new dynamic that cloud gives more options for invention, a theme we're hearing here, solving these unknown problems, creating value. So whoever can give me the best speed boat to that wins, right? I mean this is what we're seeing. Your thoughts on the community's role in propelling and keeping in check, by the way, any potentially bad behavior. >> Sure, I think the open source community that we have around Kubernetes and kind of all the cloud native work, it's great for number reasons. One, we've, kind of through Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and kind of just, as conscious effort to have really a kind of a company neutral open source ecosystem has caused adoption of all this stuff. It's becoming like a Linux, or becoming I think OpenStack is actually did a pretty good job of this of creating a very vendor neutral ecosystem around it and we're doing it again around Kubernetes and the associated projects around it. One of the big things that's going on here is it is driven out of the spirit of technical excellence as well. These open source projects are the real deal, they're great pieces of software that are being built, so I think the combination of this community as well as software actually being a great piece of technology coming out of it is really going to propel it forward. >> We had Dan Kohn earlier, who's the executive director, he talked about the IETF and how that was shaped, some of the early internet standards with that some of the architectural decisions. There's no dogma. I mean, dogma kills communities. And they don't want that, so they're going to create a separation. There's always going to be dogma at some levels, conflict, but conflict and discourse is good in communities, at some level. What is that vision for the technical excellence now because it certainly is a race. Your thoughts there, and certainly we've seen this playbook when Docker has trying to go for that management orchestration layer. You guys have a strategy. People have to make money. Right, at some point, the playbooks have to change from being we just do some service and support. We have an open core, I'm going to try and do some, you know, mangling of licensing. Your thoughts on, how are people going to make money? >> Yeah, so, on this open community side of things, I have a crazy theory for you, and I think this one's a little bit further out there. >> That's okay, it's still, things are happening on the election night, I blew my mind, I thought Hillary was going to win by a landslide, go crazy. >> So Amazon is actually become both one of the biggest proponents of open source software. It's one of the places where you can get open source databases and open source Linux and all this stuff as easily as possible. At the same time, if you're an open source company, they're one of your biggest threats, 'cause you're worried that Amazon is just going to like, go build your service! I mean, look, we've seen it across every open source company that has any reasonable amount of traction, Amazon will just go build a service that competes with it. Now, the tricky thing with Amazon is all their APIs and management are very Amazon specific. And there aren't ways to get it in other ways. And we've kind of seen this game before, similar to how, there's Microsoft and Windows with Linux, I believe that Amazon might be kind of becoming this such a powerhouse and so dominated in this space that you're going to almost see an open source backlash around it and I can see Kubernetes being a key part of that in the same way that we talk about Kubernetes as a Linux for distributed system! It's, in a way, like an open cloud. It allows you to build these cloud services in a similar way that Amazon has these higher level services that work in any environment that are built around open standards, that encourage the use of just upstream open source projects. And so far, Amazon has not really been villainized at all, and I don't think they should be-- >> And they're not grandstanding, so I think they're kind of bunkering in. Just-- >> Going for it. >> Squirreling away all this-- >> Just keep it going! (laughs) Keep ripping! >> Why even say anything, you kicking ass! Put the heat shield up and just drive fast, right? >> I feel like at some point, the community is going to be like, wait a minute! We have so many eggs in this basket! >> Yeah, we're feeling fleeced! The numbers are out there! >> And it's a proprietary-- >> Well, first of all, Dave Vellante pointed out that their 25% reporting of was GAAP, and the non-GAPP numbers are even higher. So that's real profit, that's real EB dep. So they, are they giving it back to the community? That's your question. >> Well-- >> So I think the backlash is not only giving back to the community, but either wealth creation and ecosystem flourishing, but you're talking about software. >> And it's a cycle. People want something new to emerge, but at the same time, you don't all your eggs in one basket. So, you know, it's cycles. >> Well, I think your thing is plausible. Let's just go down and play out your crazy scenario. So, Linux, was started because of the mini computer. Proprietary naus-is, and the expensive hardware. So if Amazon becomes that version of that 800 pound gorilla that's similar to the mini computer, proprietary operating systems and gear... So it's a scenario. >> Not too wild! >> Okay, so what's next for you guys? Give us the update on CoreOS, what are you guys doing, what are the hot area, what are you guys doing, what's the update real quick? >> Sure, so, the last 3, 3 1/2 years, we've been shepherding along this whole space. Containers, distributed system, Kubernetes, Docker, Rocker, CoreOS Linux, like all sorts of stuff. We finally got the point where our initial kind of groundwork of the distributed platform is all in place and we can start using it. It's like we got IOS or Android to boot and now can start building apps. And last week, we released our first set of apps, I think really paint the vision of where these things are going. As this concept called operators, and it's where we're encoding kind of the operational side of like the things a human sysadmin would do to run a piece of open source software. We're encoding that into an application and it's called an operator, and it can do things like upgrade a cluster, or back it up, or scale it up and down. Same things operate-- >> Like an agent! >> Like an agent, exactly. And it's these management components that we think are going to give companies a ton of leverage to be able to run lots and lots-- >> So when do you guys ship this recently? >> Yeah, we shipped our first couple one for Etcd, and one for Prometheus last week. It's just they're new open source projects. >> So it's like getting a new car and taking it around the track, right? You guys are getting excited. >> Well, in a way, we're calling this kind of whole concept self driving infrastructure, just like you would have a operator sitting there, driving your car, we can now put software in there to kind of help take care of the stuff, the functionality that an operator would do to give-- >> Well, I think that's great, great strategy. We were just at IBM's World of Watson and as they change their event, from Insight to Watson, that's the big hype. Customers are responding to it. They love this cognitive AI'd vision of self driving infrastructure or stuff taking care of itself and focusing on value. I mean there's a lot of stuff in the weeds right now that seems to be automatable. >> Yeah, look, two weeks ago, we had two huge vulnerabilities come out, one on the Linux kernel and one on Kubernetes. And every ops team in the world had to drop what they were doing and go fix that, and they stopped making progress on their business and whatever thing they were trying to deliver and had to go deal with this fire. We can write programs to fix that stuff and we should! And it'll lead to a more efficient business, and it'll also lead to more secure web, in general, if those things just get patched and updated automatically. >> Yeah, that's great, that's a good point, and the DDoS attack with the IOT was even more pedestrian and worse than-- >> Same issue, it's the updates! Update your software, IOT, like, updates, updates fix it. >> Yeah, I think it was probably some eight year old saying ooh, let's just take down, ooh, they left their passwords open, let's just game in. I mean, that's how bad, how easy that hack was, I mean, and it still penetrates, so tons of work to get done to your build. Alex, thanks for coming on theCUBE here On the Ground. That's a wrap here for today, it was a long day. Great to see you, and congratulations on your success. I'm John Furrier. You're watching theCUBE here On the Ground here for KubeCon and CloudNativeCon, thanks for watching. (techno music)