(soft music) >> Hello, everyone. Welcome to theCUBE's presentation of the AWS Startup Showcase. AI and Machine Learning: Top Startups Building Foundational Model Infrastructure. This is season 3, episode 1 of the ongoing series covering the exciting stuff from the AWS ecosystem, talking about machine learning and AI. I'm your host, John Furrier and today we are excited to be joined by Luis Ceze who's the CEO of OctoML and Anna Connolly, VP of customer success and experience OctoML. Great to have you on again, Luis. Anna, thanks for coming on. Appreciate it. >> Thank you, John. It's great to be here. >> Thanks for having us. >> I love the company. We had a CUBE conversation about this. You guys are really addressing how to run foundational models faster for less. And this is like the key theme. But before we get into it, this is a hot trend, but let's explain what you guys do. Can you set the narrative of what the company's about, why it was founded, what's your North Star and your mission? >> Yeah, so John, our mission is to make AI sustainable and accessible for everyone. And what we offer customers is, you know, a way of taking their models into production in the most efficient way possible by automating the process of getting a model and optimizing it for a variety of hardware and making cost-effective. So better, faster, cheaper model deployment. >> You know, the big trend here is AI. Everyone's seeing the ChatGPT, kind of the shot heard around the world. The BingAI and this fiasco and the ongoing experimentation. People are into it, and I think the business impact is clear. I haven't seen this in all of my career in the technology industry of this kind of inflection point. And every senior leader I talk to is rethinking about how to rebuild their business with AI because now the large language models have come in, these foundational models are here, they can see value in their data. This is a 10 year journey in the big data world. Now it's impacting that, and everyone's rebuilding their company around this idea of being AI first 'cause they see ways to eliminate things and make things more efficient. And so now they telling 'em to go do it. And they're like, what do we do? So what do you guys think? Can you explain what is this wave of AI and why is it happening, why now, and what should people pay attention to? What does it mean to them? >> Yeah, I mean, it's pretty clear by now that AI can do amazing things that captures people's imaginations. And also now can show things that are really impactful in businesses, right? So what people have the opportunity to do today is to either train their own model that adds value to their business or find open models out there that can do very valuable things to them. So the next step really is how do you take that model and put it into production in a cost-effective way so that the business can actually get value out of it, right? >> Anna, what's your take? Because customers are there, you're there to make 'em successful, you got the new secret weapon for their business. >> Yeah, I think we just see a lot of companies struggle to get from a trained model into a model that is deployed in a cost-effective way that actually makes sense for the application they're building. I think that's a huge challenge we see today, kind of across the board across all of our customers. >> Well, I see this, everyone asking the same question. I have data, I want to get value out of it. I got to get these big models, I got to train it. What's it going to cost? So I think there's a reality of, okay, I got to do it. Then no one has any visibility on what it costs. When they get into it, this is going to break the bank. So I have to ask you guys, the cost of training these models is on everyone's mind. OctoML, your company's focus on the cost side of it as well as the efficiency side of running these models in production. Why are the production costs such a concern and where specifically are people looking at it and why did it get here? >> Yeah, so training costs get a lot of attention because normally a large number, but we shouldn't forget that it's a large, typically one time upfront cost that customers pay. But, you know, when the model is put into production, the cost grows directly with model usage and you actually want your model to be used because it's adding value, right? So, you know, the question that a customer faces is, you know, they have a model, they have a trained model and now what? So how much would it cost to run in production, right? And now without the big wave in generative AI, which rightfully is getting a lot of attention because of the amazing things that it can do. It's important for us to keep in mind that generative AI models like ChatGPT are huge, expensive energy hogs. They cost a lot to run, right? And given that model usage growth directly, model cost grows directly with usage, what you want to do is make sure that once you put a model into production, you have the best cost structure possible so that you're not surprised when it's gets popular, right? So let me give you an example. So if you have a model that costs, say 1 to $2 million to train, but then it costs about one to two cents per session to use it, right? So if you have a million active users, even if they use just once a day, it's 10 to $20,000 a day to operate that model in production. And that very, very quickly, you know, get beyond what you paid to train it. >> Anna, these aren't small numbers, and it's cost to train and cost to operate, it kind of reminds me of when the cloud came around and the data center versus cloud options. Like, wait a minute, one, it costs a ton of cash to deploy, and then running it. This is kind of a similar dynamic. What are you seeing? >> Yeah, absolutely. I think we are going to see increasingly the cost and production outpacing the costs and training by a lot. I mean, people talk about training costs now because that's what they're confronting now because people are so focused on getting models performant enough to even use in an application. And now that we have them and they're that capable, we're really going to start to see production costs go up a lot. >> Yeah, Luis, if you don't mind, I know this might be a little bit of a tangent, but, you know, training's super important. I get that. That's what people are doing now, but then there's the deployment side of production. Where do people get caught up and miss the boat or misconfigure? What's the gotcha? Where's the trip wire or so to speak? Where do people mess up on the cost side? What do they do? Is it they don't think about it, they tie it to proprietary hardware? What's the issue? >> Yeah, several things, right? So without getting really technical, which, you know, I might get into, you know, you have to understand relationship between performance, you know, both in terms of latency and throughput and cost, right? So reducing latency is important because you improve responsiveness of the model. But it's really important to keep in mind that it often leads diminishing returns. Below a certain latency, making it faster won't make a measurable difference in experience, but it's going to cost a lot more. So understanding that is important. Now, if you care more about throughputs, which is the time it takes for you to, you know, units per period of time, you care about time to solution, we should think about this throughput per dollar. And understand what you want is the highest throughput per dollar, which may come at the cost of higher latency, which you're not going to care about, right? So, and the reality here, John, is that, you know, humans and especially folks in this space want to have the latest and greatest hardware. And often they commit a lot of money to get access to them and have to commit upfront before they understand the needs that their models have, right? So common mistake here, one is not spending time to understand what you really need, and then two, over-committing and using more hardware than you actually need. And not giving yourself enough freedom to get your workload to move around to the more cost-effective choice, right? So this is just a metaphoric choice. And then another thing that's important here too is making a model run faster on the hardware directly translates to lower cost, right? So, but it takes a lot of engineers, you need to think of ways of producing very efficient versions of your model for the target hardware that you're going to use. >> Anna, what's the customer angle here? Because price performance has been around for a long time, people get that, but now latency and throughput, that's key because we're starting to see this in apps. I mean, there's an end user piece. I even seeing it on the infrastructure side where they're taking a heavy lifting away from operational costs. So you got, you know, application specific to the user and/or top of the stack, and then you got actually being used in operations where they want both. >> Yeah, absolutely. Maybe I can illustrate this with a quick story with the customer that we had recently been working with. So this customer is planning to run kind of a transformer based model for tech generation at super high scale on Nvidia T4 GPU, so kind of a commodity GPU. And the scale was so high that they would've been paying hundreds of thousands of dollars in cloud costs per year just to serve this model alone. You know, one of many models in their application stack. So we worked with this team to optimize our model and then benchmark across several possible targets. So that matching the hardware that Luis was just talking about, including the newer kind of Nvidia A10 GPUs. And what they found during this process was pretty interesting. First, the team was able to shave a quarter of their spend just by using better optimization techniques on the T4, the older hardware. But actually moving to a newer GPU would allow them to serve this model in a sub two milliseconds latency, so super fast, which was able to unlock an entirely new kind of user experience. So they were able to kind of change the value they're delivering in their application just because they were able to move to this new hardware easily. So they ultimately decided to plan their deployment on the more expensive A10 because of this, but because of the hardware specific optimizations that we helped them with, they managed to even, you know, bring costs down from what they had originally planned. And so if you extend this kind of example to everything that's happening with generative AI, I think the story we just talked about was super relevant, but the scale can be even higher, you know, it can be tenfold that. We were recently conducting kind of this internal study using GPT-J as a proxy to illustrate the experience of just a company trying to use one of these large language models with an example scenario of creating a chatbot to help job seekers prepare for interviews. So if you imagine kind of a conservative usage scenario where the model generates just 3000 words per user per day, which is, you know, pretty conservative for how people are interacting with these models. It costs 5 cents a session and if you're a company and your app goes viral, so from, you know, beginning of the year there's nobody, at the end of the year there's a million daily active active users in that year alone, going from zero to a million. You'll be spending about $6 million a year, which is pretty unmanageable. That's crazy, right? >> Yeah. >> For a company or a product that's just launching. So I think, you know, for us we see the real way to make these kind of advancements accessible and sustainable, as we said is to bring down cost to serve using these techniques. >> That's a great story and I think that illustrates this idea that deployment cost can vary from situation to situation, from model to model and that the efficiency is so strong with this new wave, it eliminates heavy lifting, creates more efficiency, automates intellect. I mean, this is the trend, this is radical, this is going to increase. So the cost could go from nominal to millions, literally, potentially. So, this is what customers are doing. Yeah, that's a great story. What makes sense on a financial, is there a cost of ownership? Is there a pattern for best practice for training? What do you guys advise cuz this is a lot of time and money involved in all potential, you know, good scenarios of upside. But you can get over your skis as they say, and be successful and be out of business if you don't manage it. I mean, that's what people are talking about, right? >> Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, we see kind of three main vectors to reduce cost. I think one is make your deployment process easier overall, so that your engineering effort to even get your app running goes down. Two, would be get more from the compute you're already paying for, you're already paying, you know, for your instances in the cloud, but can you do more with that? And then three would be shop around for lower cost hardware to match your use case. So on the first one, I think making the deployment easier overall, there's a lot of manual work that goes into benchmarking, optimizing and packaging models for deployment. And because the performance of machine learning models can be really hardware dependent, you have to go through this process for each target you want to consider running your model on. And this is hard, you know, we see that every day. But for teams who want to incorporate some of these large language models into their applications, it might be desirable because licensing a model from a large vendor like OpenAI can leave you, you know, over provision, kind of paying for capabilities you don't need in your application or can lock you into them and you lose flexibility. So we have a customer whose team actually prepares models for deployment in a SaaS application that many of us use every day. And they told us recently that without kind of an automated benchmarking and experimentation platform, they were spending several days each to benchmark a single model on a single hardware type. So this is really, you know, manually intensive and then getting more from the compute you're already paying for. We do see customers who leave money on the table by running models that haven't been optimized specifically for the hardware target they're using, like Luis was mentioning. And for some teams they just don't have the time to go through an optimization process and for others they might lack kind of specialized expertise and this is something we can bring. And then on shopping around for different hardware types, we really see a huge variation in model performance across hardware, not just CPU vs. GPU, which is, you know, what people normally think of. But across CPU vendors themselves, high memory instances and across cloud providers even. So the best strategy here is for teams to really be able to, we say, look before you leap by running real world benchmarking and not just simulations or predictions to find the best software, hardware combination for their workload. >> Yeah. You guys sound like you have a very impressive customer base deploying large language models. Where would you categorize your current customer base? And as you look out, as you guys are growing, you have new customers coming in, take me through the progression. Take me through the profile of some of your customers you have now, size, are they hyperscalers, are they big app folks, are they kicking the tires? And then as people are out there scratching heads, I got to get in this game, what's their psychology like? Are they coming in with specific problems or do they have specific orientation point of view about what they want to do? Can you share some data around what you're seeing? >> Yeah, I think, you know, we have customers that kind of range across the spectrum of sophistication from teams that basically don't have MLOps expertise in their company at all. And so they're really looking for us to kind of give a full service, how should I do everything from, you know, optimization, find the hardware, prepare for deployment. And then we have teams that, you know, maybe already have their serving and hosting infrastructure up and ready and they already have models in production and they're really just looking to, you know, take the extra juice out of the hardware and just do really specific on that optimization piece. I think one place where we're doing a lot more work now is kind of in the developer tooling, you know, model selection space. And that's kind of an area that we're creating more tools for, particularly within the PyTorch ecosystem to bring kind of this power earlier in the development cycle so that as people are grabbing a model off the shelf, they can, you know, see how it might perform and use that to inform their development process. >> Luis, what's the big, I like this idea of picking the models because isn't that like going to the market and picking the best model for your data? It's like, you know, it's like, isn't there a certain approaches? What's your view on this? 'Cause this is where everyone, I think it's going to be a land rush for this and I want to get your thoughts. >> For sure, yeah. So, you know, I guess I'll start with saying the one main takeaway that we got from the GPT-J study is that, you know, having a different understanding of what your model's compute and memory requirements are, very quickly, early on helps with the much smarter AI model deployments, right? So, and in fact, you know, Anna just touched on this, but I want to, you know, make sure that it's clear that OctoML is putting that power into user's hands right now. So in partnership with AWS, we are launching this new PyTorch native profiler that allows you with a single, you know, one line, you know, code decorator allows you to see how your code runs on a variety of different hardware after accelerations. So it gives you very clear, you know, data on how you should think about your model deployments. And this ties back to choices of models. So like, if you have a set of choices that are equally good of models in terms of functionality and you want to understand after acceleration how are you going to deploy, how much they're going to cost or what are the options using a automated process of making a decision is really, really useful. And in fact, so I think these events can get early access to this by signing up for the Octopods, you know, this is exclusive group for insiders here, so you can go to OctoML.ai/pods to sign up. >> So that Octopod, is that a program? What is that, is that access to code? Is that a beta, what is that? Explain, take a minute and explain Octopod. >> I think the Octopod would be a group of people who is interested in experiencing this functionality. So it is the friends and users of OctoML that would be the Octopod. And then yes, after you sign up, we would provide you essentially the tool in code form for you to try out in your own. I mean, part of the benefit of this is that it happens in your own local environment and you're in control of everything kind of within the workflow that developers are already using to create and begin putting these models into their applications. So it would all be within your control. >> Got it. I think the big question I have for you is when do you, when does that one of your customers know they need to call you? What's their environment look like? What are they struggling with? What are the conversations they might be having on their side of the fence? If anyone's watching this, they're like, "Hey, you know what, I've got my team, we have a lot of data. Do we have our own language model or do I use someone else's?" There's a lot of this, I will say discovery going on around what to do, what path to take, what does that customer look like, if someone's listening, when do they know to call you guys, OctoML? >> Well, I mean the most obvious one is that you have a significant spend on AI/ML, come and talk to us, you know, putting AIML into production. So that's the clear one. In fact, just this morning I was talking to someone who is in life sciences space and is having, you know, 15 to $20 million a year cloud related to AI/ML deployment is a clear, it's a pretty clear match right there, right? So that's on the cost side. But I also want to emphasize something that Anna said earlier that, you know, the hardware and software complexity involved in putting model into production is really high. So we've been able to abstract that away, offering a clean automation flow enables one, to experiment early on, you know, how models would run and get them to production. And then two, once they are into production, gives you an automated flow to continuously updating your model and taking advantage of all this acceleration and ability to run the model on the right hardware. So anyways, let's say one then is cost, you know, you have significant cost and then two, you have an automation needs. And Anna please compliment that. >> Yeah, Anna you can please- >> Yeah, I think that's exactly right. Maybe the other time is when you are expecting a big scale up in serving your application, right? You're launching a new feature, you expect to get a lot of usage or, and you want to kind of anticipate maybe your CTO, your CIO, whoever pays your cloud bills is going to come after you, right? And so they want to know, you know, what's the return on putting this model essentially into my application stack? Am I going to, is the usage going to match what I'm paying for it? And then you can understand that. >> So you guys have a lot of the early adopters, they got big data teams, they're pushed in the production, they want to get a little QA, test the waters, understand, use your technology to figure it out. Is there any cases where people have gone into production, they have to pull it out? It's like the old lemon laws with your car, you buy a car and oh my god, it's not the way I wanted it. I mean, I can imagine the early people through the wall, so to speak, in the wave here are going to be bloody in the sense that they've gone in and tried stuff and get stuck with huge bills. Are you seeing that? Are people pulling stuff out of production and redeploying? Or I can imagine that if I had a bad deployment, I'd want to refactor that or actually replatform that. Do you see that too? >> Definitely after a sticker shock, yes, your customers will come and make sure that, you know, the sticker shock won't happen again. >> Yeah. >> But then there's another more thorough aspect here that I think we likely touched on, be worth elaborating a bit more is just how are you going to scale in a way that's feasible depending on the allocation that you get, right? So as we mentioned several times here, you know, model deployment is so hardware dependent and so complex that you tend to get a model for a hardware choice and then you want to scale that specific type of instance. But what if, when you want to scale because suddenly luckily got popular and, you know, you want to scale it up and then you don't have that instance anymore. So how do you live with whatever you have at that moment is something that we see customers needing as well. You know, so in fact, ideally what we want is customers to not think about what kind of specific instances they want. What they want is to know what their models need. Say, they know the SLA and then find a set of hybrid targets and instances that hit the SLA whenever they're also scaling, they're going to scale with more freedom, right? Instead of having to wait for AWS to give them more specific allocation for a specific instance. What if you could live with other types of hardware and scale up in a more free way, right? So that's another thing that we see customers, you know, like they need more freedom to be able to scale with whatever is available. >> Anna, you touched on this with the business model impact to that 6 million cost, if that goes out of control, there's a business model aspect and there's a technical operation aspect to the cost side too. You want to be mindful of riding the wave in a good way, but not getting over your skis. So that brings up the point around, you know, confidence, right? And teamwork. Because if you're in production, there's probably a team behind it. Talk about the team aspect of your customers. I mean, they're dedicated, they go put stuff into production, they're developers, there're data. What's in it for them? Are they getting better, are they in the beach, you know, reading the book. Are they, you know, are there easy street for them? What's the customer benefit to the teams? >> Yeah, absolutely. With just a few clicks of a button, you're in production, right? That's the dream. So yeah, I mean I think that, you know, we illustrated it before a little bit. I think the automated kind of benchmarking and optimization process, like when you think about the effort it takes to get that data by hand, which is what people are doing today, they just don't do it. So they're making decisions without the best information because it's, you know, there just isn't the bandwidth to get the information that they need to make the best decision and then know exactly how to deploy it. So I think it's actually bringing kind of a new insight and capability to these teams that they didn't have before. And then maybe another aspect on the team side is that it's making the hand-off of the models from the data science teams to the model deployment teams more seamless. So we have, you know, we have seen in the past that this kind of transition point is the place where there are a lot of hiccups, right? The data science team will give a model to the production team and it'll be too slow for the application or it'll be too expensive to run and it has to go back and be changed and kind of this loop. And so, you know, with the PyTorch profiler that Luis was talking about, and then also, you know, the other ways we do optimization that kind of prevents that hand-off problem from happening. >> Luis and Anna, you guys have a great company. Final couple minutes left. Talk about the company, the people there, what's the culture like, you know, if Intel has Moore's law, which is, you know, doubling the performance in few years, what's the culture like there? Is it, you know, more throughput, better pricing? Explain what's going on with the company and put a plug in. Luis, we'll start with you. >> Yeah, absolutely. I'm extremely proud of the team that we built here. You know, we have a people first culture, you know, very, very collaborative and folks, we all have a shared mission here of making AI more accessible and sustainable. We have a very diverse team in terms of backgrounds and life stories, you know, to do what we do here, we need a team that has expertise in software engineering, in machine learning, in computer architecture. Even though we don't build chips, we need to understand how they work, right? So, and then, you know, the fact that we have this, this very really, really varied set of backgrounds makes the environment, you know, it's say very exciting to learn more about, you know, assistance end-to-end. But also makes it for a very interesting, you know, work environment, right? So people have different backgrounds, different stories. Some of them went to grad school, others, you know, were in intelligence agencies and now are working here, you know. So we have a really interesting set of people and, you know, life is too short not to work with interesting humans. You know, that's something that I like to think about, you know. >> I'm sure your off-site meetings are a lot of fun, people talking about computer architectures, silicon advances, the next GPU, the big data models coming in. Anna, what's your take? What's the culture like? What's the company vibe and what are you guys looking to do? What's the customer success pattern? What's up? >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I, you know, second all of the great things that Luis just said about the team. I think one that I, an additional one that I'd really like to underscore is kind of this customer obsession, to use a term you all know well. And focus on the end users and really making the experiences that we're bringing to our user who are developers really, you know, useful and valuable for them. And so I think, you know, all of these tools that we're trying to put in the hands of users, the industry and the market is changing so rapidly that our products across the board, you know, all of the companies that, you know, are part of the showcase today, we're all evolving them so quickly and we can only do that kind of really hand in glove with our users. So that would be another thing I'd emphasize. >> I think the change dynamic, the power dynamics of this industry is just the beginning. I'm very bullish that this is going to be probably one of the biggest inflection points in history of the computer industry because of all the dynamics of the confluence of all the forces, which you mentioned some of them, I mean PC, you know, interoperability within internetworking and you got, you know, the web and then mobile. Now we have this, I mean, I wouldn't even put social media even in the close to this. Like, this is like, changes user experience, changes infrastructure. There's going to be massive accelerations in performance on the hardware side from AWS's of the world and cloud and you got the edge and more data. This is really what big data was going to look like. This is the beginning. Final question, what do you guys see going forward in the future? >> Well, it's undeniable that machine learning and AI models are becoming an integral part of an interesting application today, right? So, and the clear trends here are, you know, more and more competitional needs for these models because they're only getting more and more powerful. And then two, you know, seeing the complexity of the infrastructure where they run, you know, just considering the cloud, there's like a wide variety of choices there, right? So being able to live with that and making the most out of it in a way that does not require, you know, an impossible to find team is something that's pretty clear. So the need for automation, abstracting with the complexity is definitely here. And we are seeing this, you know, trends are that you also see models starting to move to the edge as well. So it's clear that we're seeing, we are going to live in a world where there's no large models living in the cloud. And then, you know, edge models that talk to these models in the cloud to form, you know, an end-to-end truly intelligent application. >> Anna? >> Yeah, I think, you know, our, Luis said it at the beginning. Our vision is to make AI sustainable and accessible. And I think as this technology just expands in every company and every team, that's going to happen kind of on its own. And we're here to help support that. And I think you can't do that without tools like those like OctoML. >> I think it's going to be an error of massive invention, creativity, a lot of the format heavy lifting is going to allow the talented people to automate their intellect. I mean, this is really kind of what we see going on. And Luis, thank you so much. Anna, thanks for coming on this segment. Thanks for coming on theCUBE and being part of the AWS Startup Showcase. I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Hello everyone. Welcome to theCube's presentation of the "AWS Startup Showcase." The topic this episode is AI and machine learning, top startups building foundational model infrastructure. This is season three, episode one of the ongoing series covering exciting startups from the AWS ecosystem. And this time we're talking about AI and machine learning. I'm your host, John Furrier. I'm excited I'm joined today by Robert Nishihara, who's the co-founder and CEO of a hot startup called Anyscale. He's here to talk about Ray, the open source project, Anyscale's infrastructure for foundation as well. Robert, thank you for joining us today. >> Yeah, thanks so much as well. >> I've been following your company since the founding pre pandemic and you guys really had a great vision scaled up and in a perfect position for this big wave that we all see with ChatGPT and OpenAI that's gone mainstream. Finally, AI has broken out through the ropes and now gone mainstream, so I think you guys are really well positioned. I'm looking forward to to talking with you today. But before we get into it, introduce the core mission for Anyscale. Why do you guys exist? What is the North Star for Anyscale? >> Yeah, like you mentioned, there's a tremendous amount of excitement about AI right now. You know, I think a lot of us believe that AI can transform just every different industry. So one of the things that was clear to us when we started this company was that the amount of compute needed to do AI was just exploding. Like to actually succeed with AI, companies like OpenAI or Google or you know, these companies getting a lot of value from AI, were not just running these machine learning models on their laptops or on a single machine. They were scaling these applications across hundreds or thousands or more machines and GPUs and other resources in the Cloud. And so to actually succeed with AI, and this has been one of the biggest trends in computing, maybe the biggest trend in computing in, you know, in recent history, the amount of compute has been exploding. And so to actually succeed with that AI, to actually build these scalable applications and scale the AI applications, there's a tremendous software engineering lift to build the infrastructure to actually run these scalable applications. And that's very hard to do. So one of the reasons many AI projects and initiatives fail is that, or don't make it to production, is the need for this scale, the infrastructure lift, to actually make it happen. So our goal here with Anyscale and Ray, is to make that easy, is to make scalable computing easy. So that as a developer or as a business, if you want to do AI, if you want to get value out of AI, all you need to know is how to program on your laptop. Like, all you need to know is how to program in Python. And if you can do that, then you're good to go. Then you can do what companies like OpenAI or Google do and get value out of machine learning. >> That programming example of how easy it is with Python reminds me of the early days of Cloud, when infrastructure as code was talked about was, it was just code the infrastructure programmable. That's super important. That's what AI people wanted, first program AI. That's the new trend. And I want to understand, if you don't mind explaining, the relationship that Anyscale has to these foundational models and particular the large language models, also called LLMs, was seen with like OpenAI and ChatGPT. Before you get into the relationship that you have with them, can you explain why the hype around foundational models? Why are people going crazy over foundational models? What is it and why is it so important? >> Yeah, so foundational models and foundation models are incredibly important because they enable businesses and developers to get value out of machine learning, to use machine learning off the shelf with these large models that have been trained on tons of data and that are useful out of the box. And then, of course, you know, as a business or as a developer, you can take those foundational models and repurpose them or fine tune them or adapt them to your specific use case and what you want to achieve. But it's much easier to do that than to train them from scratch. And I think there are three, for people to actually use foundation models, there are three main types of workloads or problems that need to be solved. One is training these foundation models in the first place, like actually creating them. The second is fine tuning them and adapting them to your use case. And the third is serving them and actually deploying them. Okay, so Ray and Anyscale are used for all of these three different workloads. Companies like OpenAI or Cohere that train large language models. Or open source versions like GPTJ are done on top of Ray. There are many startups and other businesses that fine tune, that, you know, don't want to train the large underlying foundation models, but that do want to fine tune them, do want to adapt them to their purposes, and build products around them and serve them, those are also using Ray and Anyscale for that fine tuning and that serving. And so the reason that Ray and Anyscale are important here is that, you know, building and using foundation models requires a huge scale. It requires a lot of data. It requires a lot of compute, GPUs, TPUs, other resources. And to actually take advantage of that and actually build these scalable applications, there's a lot of infrastructure that needs to happen under the hood. And so you can either use Ray and Anyscale to take care of that and manage the infrastructure and solve those infrastructure problems. Or you can build the infrastructure and manage the infrastructure yourself, which you can do, but it's going to slow your team down. It's going to, you know, many of the businesses we work with simply don't want to be in the business of managing infrastructure and building infrastructure. They want to focus on product development and move faster. >> I know you got a keynote presentation we're going to go to in a second, but I think you hit on something I think is the real tipping point, doing it yourself, hard to do. These are things where opportunities are and the Cloud did that with data centers. Turned a data center and made it an API. The heavy lifting went away and went to the Cloud so people could be more creative and build their product. In this case, build their creativity. Is that kind of what's the big deal? Is that kind of a big deal happening that you guys are taking the learnings and making that available so people don't have to do that? >> That's exactly right. So today, if you want to succeed with AI, if you want to use AI in your business, infrastructure work is on the critical path for doing that. To do AI, you have to build infrastructure. You have to figure out how to scale your applications. That's going to change. We're going to get to the point, and you know, with Ray and Anyscale, we're going to remove the infrastructure from the critical path so that as a developer or as a business, all you need to focus on is your application logic, what you want the the program to do, what you want your application to do, how you want the AI to actually interface with the rest of your product. Now the way that will happen is that Ray and Anyscale will still, the infrastructure work will still happen. It'll just be under the hood and taken care of by Ray in Anyscale. And so I think something like this is really necessary for AI to reach its potential, for AI to have the impact and the reach that we think it will, you have to make it easier to do. >> And just for clarification to point out, if you don't mind explaining the relationship of Ray and Anyscale real quick just before we get into the presentation. >> So Ray is an open source project. We created it. We were at Berkeley doing machine learning. We started Ray so that, in order to provide an easy, a simple open source tool for building and running scalable applications. And Anyscale is the managed version of Ray, basically we will run Ray for you in the Cloud, provide a lot of tools around the developer experience and managing the infrastructure and providing more performance and superior infrastructure. >> Awesome. I know you got a presentation on Ray and Anyscale and you guys are positioning as the infrastructure for foundational models. So I'll let you take it away and then when you're done presenting, we'll come back, I'll probably grill you with a few questions and then we'll close it out so take it away. >> Robert: Sounds great. So I'll say a little bit about how companies are using Ray and Anyscale for foundation models. The first thing I want to mention is just why we're doing this in the first place. And the underlying observation, the underlying trend here, and this is a plot from OpenAI, is that the amount of compute needed to do machine learning has been exploding. It's been growing at something like 35 times every 18 months. This is absolutely enormous. And other people have written papers measuring this trend and you get different numbers. But the point is, no matter how you slice and dice it, it' a astronomical rate. Now if you compare that to something we're all familiar with, like Moore's Law, which says that, you know, the processor performance doubles every roughly 18 months, you can see that there's just a tremendous gap between the needs, the compute needs of machine learning applications, and what you can do with a single chip, right. So even if Moore's Law were continuing strong and you know, doing what it used to be doing, even if that were the case, there would still be a tremendous gap between what you can do with the chip and what you need in order to do machine learning. And so given this graph, what we've seen, and what has been clear to us since we started this company, is that doing AI requires scaling. There's no way around it. It's not a nice to have, it's really a requirement. And so that led us to start Ray, which is the open source project that we started to make it easy to build these scalable Python applications and scalable machine learning applications. And since we started the project, it's been adopted by a tremendous number of companies. Companies like OpenAI, which use Ray to train their large models like ChatGPT, companies like Uber, which run all of their deep learning and classical machine learning on top of Ray, companies like Shopify or Spotify or Instacart or Lyft or Netflix, ByteDance, which use Ray for their machine learning infrastructure. Companies like Ant Group, which makes Alipay, you know, they use Ray across the board for fraud detection, for online learning, for detecting money laundering, you know, for graph processing, stream processing. Companies like Amazon, you know, run Ray at a tremendous scale and just petabytes of data every single day. And so the project has seen just enormous adoption since, over the past few years. And one of the most exciting use cases is really providing the infrastructure for building training, fine tuning, and serving foundation models. So I'll say a little bit about, you know, here are some examples of companies using Ray for foundation models. Cohere trains large language models. OpenAI also trains large language models. You can think about the workloads required there are things like supervised pre-training, also reinforcement learning from human feedback. So this is not only the regular supervised learning, but actually more complex reinforcement learning workloads that take human input about what response to a particular question, you know is better than a certain other response. And incorporating that into the learning. There's open source versions as well, like GPTJ also built on top of Ray as well as projects like Alpa coming out of UC Berkeley. So these are some of the examples of exciting projects in organizations, training and creating these large language models and serving them using Ray. Okay, so what actually is Ray? Well, there are two layers to Ray. At the lowest level, there's the core Ray system. This is essentially low level primitives for building scalable Python applications. Things like taking a Python function or a Python class and executing them in the cluster setting. So Ray core is extremely flexible and you can build arbitrary scalable applications on top of Ray. So on top of Ray, on top of the core system, what really gives Ray a lot of its power is this ecosystem of scalable libraries. So on top of the core system you have libraries, scalable libraries for ingesting and pre-processing data, for training your models, for fine tuning those models, for hyper parameter tuning, for doing batch processing and batch inference, for doing model serving and deployment, right. And a lot of the Ray users, the reason they like Ray is that they want to run multiple workloads. They want to train and serve their models, right. They want to load their data and feed that into training. And Ray provides common infrastructure for all of these different workloads. So this is a little overview of what Ray, the different components of Ray. So why do people choose to go with Ray? I think there are three main reasons. The first is the unified nature. The fact that it is common infrastructure for scaling arbitrary workloads, from data ingest to pre-processing to training to inference and serving, right. This also includes the fact that it's future proof. AI is incredibly fast moving. And so many people, many companies that have built their own machine learning infrastructure and standardized on particular workflows for doing machine learning have found that their workflows are too rigid to enable new capabilities. If they want to do reinforcement learning, if they want to use graph neural networks, they don't have a way of doing that with their standard tooling. And so Ray, being future proof and being flexible and general gives them that ability. Another reason people choose Ray in Anyscale is the scalability. This is really our bread and butter. This is the reason, the whole point of Ray, you know, making it easy to go from your laptop to running on thousands of GPUs, making it easy to scale your development workloads and run them in production, making it easy to scale, you know, training to scale data ingest, pre-processing and so on. So scalability and performance, you know, are critical for doing machine learning and that is something that Ray provides out of the box. And lastly, Ray is an open ecosystem. You can run it anywhere. You can run it on any Cloud provider. Google, you know, Google Cloud, AWS, Asure. You can run it on your Kubernetes cluster. You can run it on your laptop. It's extremely portable. And not only that, it's framework agnostic. You can use Ray to scale arbitrary Python workloads. You can use it to scale and it integrates with libraries like TensorFlow or PyTorch or JAX or XG Boost or Hugging Face or PyTorch Lightning, right, or Scikit-learn or just your own arbitrary Python code. It's open source. And in addition to integrating with the rest of the machine learning ecosystem and these machine learning frameworks, you can use Ray along with all of the other tooling in the machine learning ecosystem. That's things like weights and biases or ML flow, right. Or you know, different data platforms like Databricks, you know, Delta Lake or Snowflake or tools for model monitoring for feature stores, all of these integrate with Ray. And that's, you know, Ray provides that kind of flexibility so that you can integrate it into the rest of your workflow. And then Anyscale is the scalable compute platform that's built on top, you know, that provides Ray. So Anyscale is a managed Ray service that runs in the Cloud. And what Anyscale does is it offers the best way to run Ray. And if you think about what you get with Anyscale, there are fundamentally two things. One is about moving faster, accelerating the time to market. And you get that by having the managed service so that as a developer you don't have to worry about managing infrastructure, you don't have to worry about configuring infrastructure. You also, it provides, you know, optimized developer workflows. Things like easily moving from development to production, things like having the observability tooling, the debug ability to actually easily diagnose what's going wrong in a distributed application. So things like the dashboards and the other other kinds of tooling for collaboration, for monitoring and so on. And then on top of that, so that's the first bucket, developer productivity, moving faster, faster experimentation and iteration. The second reason that people choose Anyscale is superior infrastructure. So this is things like, you know, cost deficiency, being able to easily take advantage of spot instances, being able to get higher GPU utilization, things like faster cluster startup times and auto scaling. Things like just overall better performance and faster scheduling. And so these are the kinds of things that Anyscale provides on top of Ray. It's the managed infrastructure. It's fast, it's like the developer productivity and velocity as well as performance. So this is what I wanted to share about Ray in Anyscale. >> John: Awesome. >> Provide that context. But John, I'm curious what you think. >> I love it. I love the, so first of all, it's a platform because that's the platform architecture right there. So just to clarify, this is an Anyscale platform, not- >> That's right. >> Tools. So you got tools in the platform. Okay, that's key. Love that managed service. Just curious, you mentioned Python multiple times, is that because of PyTorch and TensorFlow or Python's the most friendly with machine learning or it's because it's very common amongst all developers? >> That's a great question. Python is the language that people are using to do machine learning. So it's the natural starting point. Now, of course, Ray is actually designed in a language agnostic way and there are companies out there that use Ray to build scalable Java applications. But for the most part right now we're focused on Python and being the best way to build these scalable Python and machine learning applications. But, of course, down the road there always is that potential. >> So if you're slinging Python code out there and you're watching that, you're watching this video, get on Anyscale bus quickly. Also, I just, while you were giving the presentation, I couldn't help, since you mentioned OpenAI, which by the way, congratulations 'cause they've had great scale, I've noticed in their rapid growth 'cause they were the fastest company to the number of users than anyone in the history of the computer industry, so major successor, OpenAI and ChatGPT, huge fan. I'm not a skeptic at all. I think it's just the beginning, so congratulations. But I actually typed into ChatGPT, what are the top three benefits of Anyscale and came up with scalability, flexibility, and ease of use. Obviously, scalability is what you guys are called. >> That's pretty good. >> So that's what they came up with. So they nailed it. Did you have an inside prompt training, buy it there? Only kidding. (Robert laughs) >> Yeah, we hard coded that one. >> But that's the kind of thing that came up really, really quickly if I asked it to write a sales document, it probably will, but this is the future interface. This is why people are getting excited about the foundational models and the large language models because it's allowing the interface with the user, the consumer, to be more human, more natural. And this is clearly will be in every application in the future. >> Absolutely. This is how people are going to interface with software, how they're going to interface with products in the future. It's not just something, you know, not just a chat bot that you talk to. This is going to be how you get things done, right. How you use your web browser or how you use, you know, how you use Photoshop or how you use other products. Like you're not going to spend hours learning all the APIs and how to use them. You're going to talk to it and tell it what you want it to do. And of course, you know, if it doesn't understand it, it's going to ask clarifying questions. You're going to have a conversation and then it'll figure it out. >> This is going to be one of those things, we're going to look back at this time Robert and saying, "Yeah, from that company, that was the beginning of that wave." And just like AWS and Cloud Computing, the folks who got in early really were in position when say the pandemic came. So getting in early is a good thing and that's what everyone's talking about is getting in early and playing around, maybe replatforming or even picking one or few apps to refactor with some staff and managed services. So people are definitely jumping in. So I have to ask you the ROI cost question. You mentioned some of those, Moore's Law versus what's going on in the industry. When you look at that kind of scale, the first thing that jumps out at people is, "Okay, I love it. Let's go play around." But what's it going to cost me? Am I going to be tied to certain GPUs? What's the landscape look like from an operational standpoint, from the customer? Are they locked in and the benefit was flexibility, are you flexible to handle any Cloud? What is the customers, what are they looking at? Basically, that's my question. What's the customer looking at? >> Cost is super important here and many of the companies, I mean, companies are spending a huge amount on their Cloud computing, on AWS, and on doing AI, right. And I think a lot of the advantage of Anyscale, what we can provide here is not only better performance, but cost efficiency. Because if we can run something faster and more efficiently, it can also use less resources and you can lower your Cloud spending, right. We've seen companies go from, you know, 20% GPU utilization with their current setup and the current tools they're using to running on Anyscale and getting more like 95, you know, 100% GPU utilization. That's something like a five x improvement right there. So depending on the kind of application you're running, you know, it's a significant cost savings. We've seen companies that have, you know, processing petabytes of data every single day with Ray going from, you know, getting order of magnitude cost savings by switching from what they were previously doing to running their application on Ray. And when you have applications that are spending, you know, potentially $100 million a year and getting a 10 X cost savings is just absolutely enormous. So these are some of the kinds of- >> Data infrastructure is super important. Again, if the customer, if you're a prospect to this and thinking about going in here, just like the Cloud, you got infrastructure, you got the platform, you got SaaS, same kind of thing's going to go on in AI. So I want to get into that, you know, ROI discussion and some of the impact with your customers that are leveraging the platform. But first I hear you got a demo. >> Robert: Yeah, so let me show you, let me give you a quick run through here. So what I have open here is the Anyscale UI. I've started a little Anyscale Workspace. So Workspaces are the Anyscale concept for interactive developments, right. So here, imagine I'm just, you want to have a familiar experience like you're developing on your laptop. And here I have a terminal. It's not on my laptop. It's actually in the cloud running on Anyscale. And I'm just going to kick this off. This is going to train a large language model, so OPT. And it's doing this on 32 GPUs. We've got a cluster here with a bunch of CPU cores, bunch of memory. And as that's running, and by the way, if I wanted to run this on instead of 32 GPUs, 64, 128, this is just a one line change when I launch the Workspace. And what I can do is I can pull up VS code, right. Remember this is the interactive development experience. I can look at the actual code. Here it's using Ray train to train the torch model. We've got the training loop and we're saying that each worker gets access to one GPU and four CPU cores. And, of course, as I make the model larger, this is using deep speed, as I make the model larger, I could increase the number of GPUs that each worker gets access to, right. And how that is distributed across the cluster. And if I wanted to run on CPUs instead of GPUs or a different, you know, accelerator type, again, this is just a one line change. And here we're using Ray train to train the models, just taking my vanilla PyTorch model using Hugging Face and then scaling that across a bunch of GPUs. And, of course, if I want to look at the dashboard, I can go to the Ray dashboard. There are a bunch of different visualizations I can look at. I can look at the GPU utilization. I can look at, you know, the CPU utilization here where I think we're currently loading the model and running that actual application to start the training. And some of the things that are really convenient here about Anyscale, both I can get that interactive development experience with VS code. You know, I can look at the dashboards. I can monitor what's going on. It feels, I have a terminal, it feels like my laptop, but it's actually running on a large cluster. And I can, with however many GPUs or other resources that I want. And so it's really trying to combine the best of having the familiar experience of programming on your laptop, but with the benefits, you know, being able to take advantage of all the resources in the Cloud to scale. And it's like when, you know, you're talking about cost efficiency. One of the biggest reasons that people waste money, one of the silly reasons for wasting money is just forgetting to turn off your GPUs. And what you can do here is, of course, things will auto terminate if they're idle. But imagine you go to sleep, I have this big cluster. You can turn it off, shut off the cluster, come back tomorrow, restart the Workspace, and you know, your big cluster is back up and all of your code changes are still there. All of your local file edits. It's like you just closed your laptop and came back and opened it up again. And so this is the kind of experience we want to provide for our users. So that's what I wanted to share with you. >> Well, I think that whole, couple of things, lines of code change, single line of code change, that's game changing. And then the cost thing, I mean human error is a big deal. People pass out at their computer. They've been coding all night or they just forget about it. I mean, and then it's just like leaving the lights on or your water running in your house. It's just, at the scale that it is, the numbers will add up. That's a huge deal. So I think, you know, compute back in the old days, there's no compute. Okay, it's just compute sitting there idle. But you know, data cranking the models is doing, that's a big point. >> Another thing I want to add there about cost efficiency is that we make it really easy to use, if you're running on Anyscale, to use spot instances and these preemptable instances that can just be significantly cheaper than the on-demand instances. And so when we see our customers go from what they're doing before to using Anyscale and they go from not using these spot instances 'cause they don't have the infrastructure around it, the fault tolerance to handle the preemption and things like that, to being able to just check a box and use spot instances and save a bunch of money. >> You know, this was my whole, my feature article at Reinvent last year when I met with Adam Selipsky, this next gen Cloud is here. I mean, it's not auto scale, it's infrastructure scale. It's agility. It's flexibility. I think this is where the world needs to go. Almost what DevOps did for Cloud and what you were showing me that demo had this whole SRE vibe. And remember Google had site reliability engines to manage all those servers. This is kind of like an SRE vibe for data at scale. I mean, a similar kind of order of magnitude. I mean, I might be a little bit off base there, but how would you explain it? >> It's a nice analogy. I mean, what we are trying to do here is get to the point where developers don't think about infrastructure. Where developers only think about their application logic. And where businesses can do AI, can succeed with AI, and build these scalable applications, but they don't have to build, you know, an infrastructure team. They don't have to develop that expertise. They don't have to invest years in building their internal machine learning infrastructure. They can just focus on the Python code, on their application logic, and run the stuff out of the box. >> Awesome. Well, I appreciate the time. Before we wrap up here, give a plug for the company. I know you got a couple websites. Again, go, Ray's got its own website. You got Anyscale. You got an event coming up. Give a plug for the company looking to hire. Put a plug in for the company. >> Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. So first of all, you know, we think AI is really going to transform every industry and the opportunity is there, right. We can be the infrastructure that enables all of that to happen, that makes it easy for companies to succeed with AI, and get value out of AI. Now we have, if you're interested in learning more about Ray, Ray has been emerging as the standard way to build scalable applications. Our adoption has been exploding. I mentioned companies like OpenAI using Ray to train their models. But really across the board companies like Netflix and Cruise and Instacart and Lyft and Uber, you know, just among tech companies. It's across every industry. You know, gaming companies, agriculture, you know, farming, robotics, drug discovery, you know, FinTech, we see it across the board. And all of these companies can get value out of AI, can really use AI to improve their businesses. So if you're interested in learning more about Ray and Anyscale, we have our Ray Summit coming up in September. This is going to highlight a lot of the most impressive use cases and stories across the industry. And if your business, if you want to use LLMs, you want to train these LLMs, these large language models, you want to fine tune them with your data, you want to deploy them, serve them, and build applications and products around them, give us a call, talk to us. You know, we can really take the infrastructure piece, you know, off the critical path and make that easy for you. So that's what I would say. And, you know, like you mentioned, we're hiring across the board, you know, engineering, product, go-to-market, and it's an exciting time. >> Robert Nishihara, co-founder and CEO of Anyscale, congratulations on a great company you've built and continuing to iterate on and you got growth ahead of you, you got a tailwind. I mean, the AI wave is here. I think OpenAI and ChatGPT, a customer of yours, have really opened up the mainstream visibility into this new generation of applications, user interface, roll of data, large scale, how to make that programmable so we're going to need that infrastructure. So thanks for coming on this season three, episode one of the ongoing series of the hot startups. In this case, this episode is the top startups building foundational model infrastructure for AI and ML. I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Narrator: theCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies: creating technologies that drive human progress. (upbeat music) >> Welcome back to the Fira in Barcelona. You're watching theCUBE's Coverage day two of MWC 23. Check out SiliconANGLE.com for all the news, John Furrier in our Palo Alto studio, breaking that down. But we're here live Dave Vellante, Dave Nicholson and Lisa Martin. We're really excited. We're going to talk qubits. Vanessa Diaz is here. She's CEO of LuxQuanta And Antonio Acin is a professor of ICFO. Folks, welcome to theCUBE. We're going to talk quantum. Really excited about that. >> Vanessa: Thank you guys. >> What does quantum have to do with the network? Tell us. >> Right, so we are actually leaving the second quantum revolution. So the first one actually happened quite a few years ago. It enabled very much the communications that we have today. So in this second quantum revolution, if in the first one we learn about some very basic properties of quantum physics now our scientific community is able to actually work with the systems and ask them to do things. So quantum technologies mean right now, three main pillars, no areas of exploration. The first one is quantum computing. Everybody knows about that. Antonio knows a lot about that too so he can explain further. And it's about computers that now can do wonder. So the ability of of these computers to compute is amazing. So they'll be able to do amazing things. The other pillar is quantum communications but in fact it's slightly older than quantum computer, nobody knows that. And we are the ones that are coming to actually counteract the superpowers of quantum computers. And last but not least quantum sensing, that's the the application of again, quantum physics to measure things that were impossible to measure in with such level of quality, of precision than before. So that's very much where we are right now. >> Okay, so I think I missed the first wave of quantum computing Because, okay, but my, our understanding is ones and zeros, they can be both and the qubits aren't that stable, et cetera. But where are we today, Antonio in terms of actually being able to apply quantum computing? I'm inferring from what Vanessa said that we've actually already applied it but has it been more educational or is there actual work going on with quantum? >> Well, at the moment, I mean, typical question is like whether we have a quantum computer or not. I think we do have some quantum computers, some machines that are able to deal with these quantum bits. But of course, this first generation of quantum computers, they have noise, they're imperfect, they don't have many qubits. So we have to understand what we can do with these quantum computers today. Okay, this is science, but also technology working together to solve relevant problems. So at this moment is not clear what we can do with present quantum computers but we also know what we can do with a perfect quantum computer without noise with many quantum bits, with many qubits. And for instance, then we can solve problems that are out of reach for our classical computers. So the typical example is the problem of factorization that is very connected to what Vanessa does in her company. So we have identified problems that can be solved more efficiently with a quantum computer, with a very good quantum computer. People are working to have this very good quantum computer. At the moment, we have some imperfect quantum computers, we have to understand what we can do with these imperfect machines. >> Okay. So for the first wave was, okay, we have it working for a little while so we see the potential. Okay, and we have enough evidence almost like a little experiment. And now it's apply it to actually do some real work. >> Yeah, so now there is interest by companies so because they see a potential there. So they are investing and they're working together with scientists. We have to identify use cases, problems of relevance for all of us. And then once you identify a problem where a quantum computer can help you, try to solve it with existing machines and see if you can get an advantage. So now the community is really obsessed with getting a quantum advantage. So we really hope that we will get a quantum advantage. This, we know we will get it. We eventually have a very good quantum computer. But we want to have it now. And we're working on that. We have some results, there were I would say a bit academic situation in which a quantum advantage was proven. But to be honest with you on a really practical problem, this has not happened yet. But I believe the day that this happens and I mean it will be really a game changing. >> So you mentioned the word efficiency and you talked about the quantum advantage. Is the quantum advantage a qualitative advantage in that it is fundamentally different? Or is it simply a question of greater efficiency, so therefore a quantitative advantage? The example in the world we're used to, think about a card system where you're writing information on a card and putting it into a filing cabinet and then you want to retrieve it. Well, the information's all there, you can retrieve it. Computer system accelerates that process. It's not doing something that is fundamentally different unless you accept that the speed with which these things can be done gives it a separate quality. So how would you characterize that quantum versus non quantum? Is it just so much horse power changes the game or is it fundamentally different? >> Okay, so from a fundamental perspective, quantum physics is qualitatively different from classical physics. I mean, this year the Nobel Prize was given to three experimentalists who made experiments that proved that quantum physics is qualitatively different from classical physics. This is established, I mean, there have been experiments proving that. Now when we discuss about quantum computation, it's more a quantitative difference. So we have problems that you can solve, in principle you can solve with the classical computers but maybe the amount of time you need to solve them is we are talking about centuries and not with your laptop even with a classic super computer, these machines that are huge, where you have a building full of computers there are some problems for which computers take centuries to solve them. So you can say that it's quantitative, but in practice you may even say that it's impossible in practice and it will remain impossible. And now these problems become feasible with a quantum computer. So it's quantitative but almost qualitative I would say. >> Before we get into the problems, 'cause I want to understand some of those examples, but Vanessa, so your role at LuxQuanta is you're applying quantum in the communication sector for security purposes, correct? >> Vanessa: Correct. >> Because everybody talks about how quantum's going to ruin our lives in terms of taking all our passwords and figuring everything out. But can quantum help us defend against quantum and is that what you do? >> That's what we do. So one of the things that Antonio's explaining so our quantum computer will be able to solve in a reasonable amount of time something that today is impossible to solve unless you leave a laptop or super computer working for years. So one of those things is cryptography. So at the end, when use send a message and you want to preserve its confidentiality what you do is you destroy it but following certain rules which means they're using some kind of key and therefore you can send it through a public network which is the case for every communication that we have, we go through the internet and then the receiver is going to be able to reassemble it because they have that private key and nobody else has. So that private key is actually made of computational problems or mathematical problems that are very, very hard. We're talking about 40 years time for a super computer today to be able to hack it. However, we do not have the guarantee that there is already very smart mind that already have potentially the capacity also of a quantum computer even with enough, no millions, but maybe just a few qubits, it's enough to actually hack this cryptography. And there is also the fear that somebody could actually waiting for quantum computing to finally reach out this amazing capacity we harvesting now which means capturing all this confidential information storage in it. So when we are ready to have the power to unlock it and hack it and see what's behind. So we are talking about information as delicate as governmental, citizens information related to health for example, you name it. So what we do is we build a key to encrypt the information but it's not relying on a mathematical problem it's relying on the laws of quantum physics. So I'm going to have a channel that I'm going to pump photons there, light particles of light. And that quantum channel, because of the laws of physics is going to allow to detect somebody trying to sneak in and seeing the key that I'm establishing. If that happens, I will not create a key if it's clean and nobody was there, I'll give you a super key that nobody today or in the future, regardless of their computational power, will be able to hack. >> So it's like super zero trust. >> Super zero trust. >> Okay so but quantum can solve really challenging mathematical problems. If you had a quantum computer could you be a Bitcoin billionaire? >> Not that I know. I think people are, okay, now you move me a bit of my comfort zone. Because I know people have working on that. I don't think there is a lot of progress at least not that I am aware of. Okay, but I mean, in principle you have to understand that our society is based on information and computation. Computers are a key element in our society. And if you have a machine that computes better but much better than our existing machines, this gives you an advantage for many things. I mean, progress is locked by many computational problems we cannot solve. We can want to have better materials better medicines, better drugs. I mean this, you have to solve hard computational problems. If you have machine that gives you machine learning, big data. I mean, if you have a machine that gives you an advantage there, this may be a really real change. I'm not saying that we know how to do these things with a quantum computer. But if we understand how this machine that has been proven more powerful in some context can be adapted to some other context. I mean having a much better computer machine is an advantage. >> When? When are we going to have, you said we don't really have it today, we want it today. Are we five years away, 10 years away? Who's working on this? >> There are already quantum computers are there. It's just that the capacity that they have of right now is the order of a few hundred qubits. So people are, there are already companies harvesting, they're actually the companies that make these computers they're already putting them. People can access to them through the cloud and they can actually run certain algorithms that have been tailor made or translated to the language of a quantum computer to see how that performs there. So some people are already working with them. There is billions of investment across the world being put on different flavors of technologies that can reach to that quantum supremacy that we are talking about. The question though that you're asking is Q day it sounds like doomsday, you know, Q day. So depending on who you talk to, they will give you a different estimation. So some people say, well, 2030 for example but perhaps we could even think that it could be a more aggressive date, maybe 2027. So it is yet to be the final, let's say not that hard deadline but I think that the risk, that it can actually bring is big enough for us to pay attention to this and start preparing for it. So the end times of cryptography that's what quantum is doing is we have a system here that can actually prevent all your communications from being hacked. So if you think also about Q day and you go all the way back. So whatever tools you need to protect yourself from it, you need to deploy them, you need to see how they fit in your organization, evaluate the benefits, learn about it. So that, how close in time does that bring us? Because I believe that the time to start thinking about this is now. >> And it's likely it'll be some type of hybrid that will get us there, hybrid between existing applications. 'Cause you have to rewrite or write new applications and that's going to take some time. But it sounds like you feel like this decade we will see Q day. What probability would you give that? Is it better than 50/50? By 2030 we'll see Q day. >> But I'm optimistic by nature. So yes, I think it's much higher than 50. >> Like how much higher? >> 80, I would say yes. I'm pretty confident. I mean, but what I want to say also usually when I think there is a message here so you have your laptop, okay, in the past I had a Spectrum This is very small computer, it was more or less the same size but this machine is much more powerful. Why? Because we put information on smaller scales. So we always put information in smaller and smaller scale. This is why here you have for the same size, you have much more information because you put on smaller scales. So if you go small and small and small, you'll find the quantum word. So this is unavoidable. So our information devices are going to meet the quantum world and they're going to exploit it. I'm fully convinced about this, maybe not for the quantum computer we're imagining now but they will find it and they will use quantum effects. And also for cryptography, for me, this is unavoidable. >> And you brought the point there are several companies working on that. I mean, I can get quantum computers on in the cloud and Amazon and other suppliers. IBM of course is. >> The underlying technology, there are competing versions of how you actually create these qubits. pins of electrons and all sorts of different things. Does it need to be super cooled or not? >> Vanessa: There we go. >> At a fundamental stage we'd be getting ground. But what is, what does ChatGPT look like when it can leverage the quantum realm? >> Well, okay. >> I Mean are we all out of jobs at that point? Should we all just be planning for? >> No. >> Not you. >> I think all of us real estate in Portugal, should we all be looking? >> No, actually, I mean in machine learning there are some hopes about quantum competition because usually you have to deal with lots of data. And we know that in quantum physics you have a concept that is called superposition. So we, there are some hopes not in concrete yet but we have some hopes that these superpositions may allow you to explore this big data in a more efficient way. One has to if this can be confirmed. But one of the hopes creating this lots of qubits in this superpositions that you will have better artificial intelligence machines but, okay, this is quite science fiction what I'm saying now. >> At this point and when you say superposition, that's in contrast to the ones and zeros that we're used to. So when someone says it could be a one or zero or a one and a zero, that's referencing the concept of superposition. And so if this is great for encryption, doesn't that necessarily mean that bad actors can leverage it in a way that is now unhackable? >> I mean our technologies, again it's impossible to hack because it is the laws of physics what are allowing me to detect an intruder. So that's the beauty of it. It's not something that you're going to have to replace in the future because there will be a triple quantum computer, it is not going to affect us in any way but definitely the more capacity, computational capacity that we see out there in quantum computers in particular but in any other technologies in general, I mean, when we were coming to talk to you guys, Antonio and I, he was the one saying we do not know whether somebody has reached some relevant computational power already with the technologies that we have. And they've been able to hack already current cryptography and then they're not telling us. So it's a bit of, the message is a little bit like a paranoid message, but if you think about security that the amount of millions that means for a private institution know when there is a data breach, we see it every day. And also the amount of information that is relevant for the wellbeing of a country. Can you really put a reasonable amount of paranoid to that? Because I believe that it's worth exploring whatever tool is going to prevent you from putting any of those piece of information at risk. >> Super interesting topic guys. I know you're got to run. Thanks for stopping by theCUBE, it was great to have you on. >> Thank you guys. >> All right, so this is the SiliconANGLE theCUBE's coverage of Mobile World Congress, MWC now 23. We're live at the Fira Check out silicon SiliconANGLE.com and theCUBE.net for all the videos. Be right back, right after this short break. (relaxing music)

(upbeat instrumental music) >> TheCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies, creating technologies that drive human progress. (uplifting instrumental music) >> Hey everyone. Welcome to Barcelona, Spain. It's theCUBE Live at MWC '23. I'm Lisa Martin, Dave Vellante, our co-founder, our co-CEO of theCUBE, you know him, you love him. He's here as my co-host. Dave, we have a great couple of guests here to break down day one keynote. Lots of meat. I can't wait to be part of this conversation. Chris Lewis joins us, the founder and MD of Lewis Insight. And Sarbjeet Johal, one of you know him as well. He's a Cube contributor, cloud architect. Guys, welcome to the program. Thank you so much for joining Dave and me today. >> Lovely to be here. >> Thank you. >> Chris, I want to start with you. You have covered all aspects of global telecoms industries over 30 years working as an analyst. Talk about the evolution of the telecom industry that you've witnessed, and what were some of the things you heard in the keynote that excite you about the direction it's going? >> Well, as ever, MWC, there's no lack of glitz and glamour, but it's the underlying issues of the industry that are really at stake here. There's not a lot of new revenue coming into the telecom providers, but there's a lot of adjustment, readjustment of the underlying operational environment. And also, really importantly, what came out of the keynotes is the willingness and the necessity to really engage with the API community, with the developer community, people who traditionally, telecoms would never have even touched. So they're sorting out their own house, they're cleaning their own stables, getting the cost base down, but they're also now realizing they've got to engage with all the other parties. There's a lot of cloud providers here, there's a lot of other people from outside so they're realizing they cannot do it all themselves. It's quite a tough lesson for a very conservative, inward looking industry, right? So should we be spending all this money and all this glitz and glamour of MWC and all be here, or should would be out there really building for the future and making sure the services are right for yours and my needs in a business and personal lives? So a lot of new changes, a lot of realization of what's going on outside, but underlying it, we've just got to get this right this time. >> And it feels like that monetization is front and center. You mentioned developers, we've got to work with developers, but I'm hearing the latest keynote from the Ericsson CEOs, we're going to monetize through those APIs, we're going to charge the developers. I mean, first of all, Chris, am I getting that right? And Sarbjeet, as somebody who's close to the developer community, is that the right way to build bridges? But Chris, are we getting that right? >> Well, let's take the first steps first. So, Ericsson, of course, acquired Vonage, which is a massive API business so they want to make money. They expect to make money by bringing that into the mainstream telecom community. Now, whether it's the developers who pay for it, or let's face it, we are moving into a situation as the telco moves into a techco model where the techco means they're going to be selling bits of the technology to developer guys and to other application developers. So when he says he needs to charge other people for it, it's the way in which people reach in and will take going through those open APIs like the open gateway announced today, but also the way they'll reach in and take things like network slicing. So we're opening up the telecom community, the treasure chest, if you like, where developers' applications and other third parties can come in and take those chunks of technology and build them into their services. This is a complete change from the old telecom industry where everybody used to come and you say, "all right, this is my product, you've got to buy it and you're going to pay me a lot of money for it." So we are looking at a more flexible environment where the other parties can take those chunks. And we know we want collectivity built into our financial applications, into our government applications, everything, into the future of the metaverse, whatever it may be. But it requires that change in attitude of the telcos. And they do need more money 'cause they've said, the baseline of revenue is pretty static, there's not a lot of growth in there so they're looking for new revenues. It's in a B2B2X time model. And it's probably the middle man's going to pay for it rather than the customer. >> But the techco model, Sarbjeet, it looks like the telcos are getting their money on their way in. The techco company model's to get them on their way out like the app store. Go build something of value, build some kind of app or data product, and then when it takes off, we'll take a piece of the action. What are your thoughts from a developer perspective about how the telcos are approaching it? >> Yeah, I think before we came here, like I said, I did some tweets on this, that we talk about all kind of developers, like there's game developers and front end, back end, and they're all talking about like what they're building on top of cloud, but nowhere you will hear the term "telco developer," there's no API from telcos given to the developers to build IoT solutions on top of it because telco as an IoT, I think is a good sort of hand in hand there. And edge computing as well. The glimmer of hope, if you will, for telcos is the edge computing, I believe. And even in edge, I predicted, I said that many times that cloud players will dominate that market with the private 5G. You know that story, right? >> We're going to talk about that. (laughs) >> The key is this, that if you see in general where the population lives, in metros, right? That's where the world population is like flocking to and we have cloud providers covering the local zones with local like heavy duty presence from the big cloud providers and then these telcos are getting sidetracked by that. Even the V2X in cars moving the autonomous cars and all that, even in that space, telcos are getting sidetracked in many ways. What telcos have to do is to join the forces, build some standards, if not standards, some consortium sort of. They're trying to do that with the open gateway here, they have only eight APIs. And it's 2023, eight APIs is nothing, right? (laughs) So they should have started this 10 years back, I think. So, yeah, I think to entice the developers, developers need the employability, we need to train them, we need to show them some light that hey, you can build a lot on top of it. If you tell developers they can develop two things or five things, nobody will come. >> So, Chris, the cloud will dominate the edge. So A, do you buy it? B, the telcos obviously are acting like that might happen. >> Do you know I love people when they've got their heads in the clouds. (all laugh) And you're right in so many ways, but if you flip it around and think about how the customers think about this, business customers and consumers, they don't care about all this background shenanigans going on, do they? >> Lisa: No. >> So I think one of the problems we have is that this is a new territory and whether you call it the edge or whatever you call it, what we need there is we need connectivity, we need security, we need storage, we need compute, we need analytics, and we need applications. And are any of those more important than the others? It's the collective that actually drives the real value there. So we need all those things together. And of course, the people who represented at this show, whether it's the cloud guys, the telcos, the Nokia, the Ericssons of this world, they all own little bits of that. So that's why they're all talking partnerships because they need the combination, they cannot do it on their own. The cloud guys can't do it on their own. >> Well, the cloud guys own all of those things that you just talked about though. (all laugh) >> Well, they don't own the last bit of connectivity, do they? They don't own the access. >> Right, exactly. That's the one thing they don't own. So, okay, we're back to pipes, right? We're back to charging for connectivity- >> Pipes are very valuable things, right? >> Yeah, for sure. >> Never underestimate pipes. I don't know about where you live, plumbers make a lot of money where I live- >> I don't underestimate them but I'm saying can the telcos charge for more than that or are the cloud guys going to mop up the storage, the analytics, the compute, and the apps? >> They may mop it up, but I think what the telcos are doing and we've seen a lot of it here already, is they are working with all those major cloud guys already. So is it an unequal relationship? The cloud guys are global, massive global scale, the telcos are fundamentally national operators. >> Yep. >> Some have a little bit of regional, nobody has global scale. So who stitches it all together? >> Dave: Keep your friends close and your enemies closer. >> Absolutely. >> I know that saying never gets old. It's true. Well, Sarbjeet, one of the things that you tweeted about, I didn't get to see the keynote but I was looking at your tweets. 46% of telcos think they won't make it to the next decade. That's a big number. Did that surprise you? >> No, actually it didn't surprise me because the competition is like closing in on them and the telcos are competing with telcos as well and the telcos are competing with cloud providers on the other side, right? So the smaller ones are getting squeezed. It's the bigger players, they can hook up the newer platforms, I think they will survive. It's like that part is like any other industry, if you will. But the key is here, I think why the pain points were sort of described on the main stage is that they're crying out loud to tell the big tech cloud providers that "hey, you pay your fair share," like we talked, right? You are not paying, you're generating so much content which reverses our networks and you are not paying for it. So they are not able to recoup the cost of laying down their networks. By the way, one thing actually I want to mention is that they said the cloud needs earth. The cloud and earth, it's like there's no physical need to cloud, you know that, right? So like, I think it's the other way around. I think the earth needs the cloud because I'm a cloud guy. (Sarbjeet and Lisa laugh) >> I think you need each other, right? >> I think so too. >> They need each other. When they said cloud needs earth, right? I think they're still in denial that the cloud is a big force. They have to partner. When you can't compete with somebody, what do you do? Partner with them. >> Chris, this is your world. Are they in denial? >> No, I think they're waking up to the pragmatism of the situation. >> Yeah. >> They're building... As we said, most of the telcos, you find have relationships with the cloud guys, I think you're right about the industry. I mean, do you think what's happened since US was '96, the big telecom act when we started breaking up all the big telcos and we had lots of competition came in, we're seeing the signs that we might start to aggregate them back up together again. So it's been an interesting experiment for like 30 years, hasn't it too? >> It made the US less competitive, I would argue, but carry on. >> Yes, I think it's true. And Europe is maybe too competitive and therefore, it's not driven the investment needed. And by the way, it's not just mobile, it's fixed as well. You saw the Orange CEO was talking about the her investment and the massive fiber investments way ahead of many other countries, way ahead of the UK or Germany. We need that fiber in the ground to carry all your cloud traffic to do this. So there is a scale issue, there is a competition issue, but the telcos are very much aware of it. They need the cloud, by the way, to improve their operational environments as well, to change that whole old IT environment to deliver you and I better service. So no, it absolutely is changing. And they're getting scale, but they're fundamentally offering the basic product, you call it pipes, I'll just say they're offering broadband to you and I and the business community. But they're stepping on dangerous ground, I think, when saying they want to charge the over the top guys for all the traffic they use. Those over the top guys now build a lot of the global networks, the backbone submarine network. They're putting a lot of money into it, and by giving us endless data for our individual usage, that cat is out the bag, I think to a large extent. >> Yeah. And Orange CEO basically said that, that they're not paying their fair share. I'm for net neutrality but the governments are going to have to fund this unless you let us charge the OTT. >> Well, I mean, we could of course renationalize. Where would that take us? (Dave laughs) That would make MWC very interesting next year, wouldn't it? To renationalize it. So, no, I think you've got to be careful what we wish for here. Creating the absolute clear product that is required to underpin all of these activities, whether it's IoT or whether it's cloud delivery or whether it's just our own communication stuff, delivering that absolutely ubiquitously high quality for business and for consumer is what we have to do. And telcos have been too conservative in the past. >> I think they need to get together and create standards around... I think they have a big opportunity. We know that the clouds are being built in silos, right? So there's Azure stack, there's AWS and there's Google. And those are three main ones and a few others, right? So that we are fighting... On the cloud side, what we are fighting is the multicloud. How do we consume that multicloud without having standards? So if these people get together and create some standards around IoT and edge computing sort of area, people will flock to them to say, "we will use you guys, your API, we don't care behind the scenes if you use AWS or Google Cloud or Azure, we will come to you." So market, actually is looking for that solution. I think it's an opportunity for these guys, for telcos. But the problem with telcos is they're nationalized, as you said Chris versus the cloud guys are still kind of national in a way, but they're global corporations. And some of the telcos are global corporations as well, BT covers so many countries and TD covers so many... DT is in US as well, so they're all over the place. >> But you know what's interesting is that the TM forum, which is one of the industry associations, they've had an open digital architecture framework for quite some years now. Google had joined that some years ago, Azure in there, AWS just joined it a couple of weeks ago. So when people said this morning, why isn't AWS on the keynote? They don't like sharing the limelight, do they? But they're getting very much in bed with the telco. So I think you'll see the marriage. And in fact, there's a really interesting statement, if you look at the IoT you mentioned, Bosch and Nokia have been working together 'cause they said, the problem we've got, you've got a connectivity network on one hand, you've got the sensor network on the other hand, you're trying to merge them together, it's a nightmare. So we are finally seeing those sort of groups talking to each other. So I think the standards are coming, the cooperation is coming, partnerships are coming, but it means that the telco can't dominate the sector like it used to. It's got to play ball with everybody else. >> I think they have to work with the regulators as well to loosen the regulation. Or you said before we started this segment, you used Chris, the analogy of sports, right? In sports, when you're playing fiercely, you commit the fouls and then ask for ref to blow the whistle. You're now looking at the ref all the time. The telcos are looking at the ref all the time. >> Dave: Yeah, can I do this? Can I do that? Is this a fair move? >> They should be looking for the space in front of the opposition. >> Yeah, they should be just on attack mode and commit these fouls, if you will, and then ask for forgiveness then- >> What do you make of that AWS not you there- >> Well, Chris just made a great point that they don't like to share the limelight 'cause I thought it was very obvious that we had Google Cloud, we had Microsoft there on day one of this 80,000 person event. A lot of people back from COVID and they weren't there. But Chris, you brought up a great point that kind of made me think, maybe you're right. Maybe they're in the afternoon keynote, they want their own time- >> You think GSMA invited them? >> I imagine so. You'd have to ask GSMA. >> I would think so. >> Get Max on here and ask that. >> I'm going to ask them, I will. >> But no, and they don't like it because I think the misconception, by the way, is that everyone says, "oh, it's AWS, it's Google Cloud and it's Azure." They're not all the same business by any stretch of the imagination. AWS has been doing loads of great work, they've been launching private network stuff over the last couple of weeks. Really interesting. Google's been playing catch up. We know that they came in readily late to the market. And Azure, they've all got slightly different angles on it. So perhaps it just wasn't right for AWS and the way they wanted to pitch things so they don't have to be there, do they? >> That's a good point. >> But the industry needs them there, that's the number one cloud. >> Dave, they're there working with the industry. >> Yeah, of course. >> They don't have to be on the keynote stage. And in fact, you think about this show and you mentioned the 80,000 people, the activity going on around in all these massive areas they're in, it's fantastic. That's where the business is done. The business isn't done up on the keynote stage. >> That's why there's the glitz and the glamour, Chris. (all laugh) >> Yeah. It's not glitz, it's espresso. It's not glamour anymore, it's just espresso. >> We need the espresso. >> Yeah. >> I think another thing is that it's interesting how an average European sees the tech market and an average North American, especially you from US, you have to see the market. Here, people are more like process oriented and they want the rules of the road already established before they can take a step- >> Chris: That's because it's your pension in the North American- >> Exactly. So unions are there and the more employee rights and everything, you can't fire people easily here or in Germany or most of the Europe is like that with the exception of UK. >> Well, but it's like I said, that Silicone Valley gets their money on the way out, you know? And that's how they do it, that's how they think it. And they don't... They ask for forgiveness. I think the east coast is more close to Europe, but in the EU, highly regulated, really focused on lifetime employment, things like that. >> But Dave, the issue is the telecom industry is brilliant, right? We keep paying every month whatever we do with it. >> It's a great business, to your point- >> It's a brilliant business model. >> Dave: It's fantastic. >> So it's about then getting the structure right behind it. And you know, we've seen a lot of stratification where people are selling off towers, Orange haven't sold their towers off, they made a big point about that. Others are selling their towers off. Some people are selling off their underlying network, Telecom Italia talking about KKR buying the whole underlying network. It's like what do you want to be in control of? It's a great business. >> But that's why they complain so much is that they're having to sell their assets because of the onerous CapEx requirements, right? >> Yeah, they've had it good, right? And dare I say, perhaps they've not planned well enough for the future. >> They're trying to protect their past from the future. I mean, that's... >> Actually, look at the... Every "n" number of years, there's a new faster network. They have to dig the ground, they have to put the fiber, they have to put this. Now, there are so many booths showing 6G now, we are not even done with 5G yet, now the next 6G you know, like then- >> 10G's coming- >> 10G, that's a different market. (Dave laughs) >> Actually, they're bogged down by the innovation, I think. >> And the generational thing is really important because we're planning for 6G in all sorts of good ways but actually what we use in our daily lives, we've gone through the barrier, we've got enough to do that. So 4G gives us enough, the fiber in the ground or even old copper gives us enough. So the question is, what are we willing to pay for more than that basic connectivity? And the answer to your point, Dave, is not a lot, right? So therefore, that's why the emphasis is on the business market on that B2B and B2B2X. >> But we'll pay for Netflix all day long. >> All day long. (all laugh) >> The one thing Chris, I don't know, I want to know your viewpoints and we have talked in the past as well, there's absence of think tanks in tech, right? So we have think tanks on the foreign policy and economic policy in every country, and we have global think tanks, but tech is becoming a huge part of the economy, global economy as well as national economies, right? But we don't have think tanks on like policy around tech. For example, this 4G is good for a lot of use cases. Then 5G is good for smaller number of use cases. And then 6G will be like, fewer people need 6G for example. Why can't we have sort of those kind of entities dictating those kind of like, okay, is this a wiser way to go about it? >> Lina Khan wants to. She wants to break up big tech- >> You're too young to remember but the IT used to have a show every four years in Geneva, there were standards around there. So I think there are bodies. I think the balance of power obviously has gone from the telecom to the west coast to the IT markets. And it's changing the balance about, it moves more quickly, right? Telecoms has never moved quickly enough. I think there is hope by the way, that telecoms now that we are moving to more softwarized environment, and God forbid, we're moving into CICD in the telecom world, right? Which is a massive change, but I think there's hopes for it to change. The mentality is changing, the culture is changing, but to change those old structured organizations from the British telecom or the France telecom into the modern world, it's a hell of a long journey. It's not an overnight journey at all. >> Well, of course the theme of the event is velocity. >> Yeah, I know that. >> And it's been interesting sitting here with the three of you talking about from a historic perspective, how slow and molasseslike telecom has been. They don't have a choice anymore. As consumers, we have this expectation we're going to get anything we want on our mobile device, 24 by seven. We don't care about how the sausage is made, we just want the end result. So do you really think, and we're only on day one guys... And Chris we'll start with you. Is the theme really velocity? Is it disruption? Are they able to move faster? >> Actually, I think invisibility is the real answer. (Lisa laughs) We want communication to be invisible, right? >> Absolutely. >> We want it to work. When we switch our phones on, we want it to work and we want to... Well, they're not even phones anymore, are they really? I mean that's the... So no, velocity, we've got... There is momentum in the industry, there's no doubt about that. The cloud guys coming in, making telecoms think about the way they run their own business, where they meet, that collision point on the edges you talked about Sarbjeet. We do have velocity, we've got momentum. There's so many interested parties. The way I think of this is that the telecom industry used to be inward looking, just design its own technology and then expect everyone else to dance to our tune. We're now flipping that 180 degrees and we are now having to work with all the different outside forces shaping us. Whether it's devices, whether it's smart cities, governments, the hosting guys, the Equinoxis, all these things. So everyone wants a piece of this telecom world so we've got to make ourselves more open. That's why you get in a more open environment. >> But you did... I just want to bring back a point you made during COVID, which was when everybody switched to work from home, started using their landlines again, telcos had to respond and nothing broke. I mean, it was pretty amazing. >> Chris: It did a good job. >> It was kind of invisible. So, props to the telcos for making that happen. >> They did a great job. >> So it really did. Now, okay, what have you done for me lately? So now they've got to deal with the future and they're talking monetization. But to me, monetization is all about data and not necessarily just the network data. Yeah, they can sell that 'cause they own that but what kind of incremental value are they going to create for the consumers that... >> Yeah, actually that's a problem. I think the problem is that they have been strangled by the regulation for a long time and they cannot look at their data. It's a lot more similar to the FinTech world, right? I used to work at Visa. And then Visa, we did trillion dollars in transactions in '96. Like we moved so much money around, but we couldn't look at these things, right? So yeah, I think regulation is a problem that holds you back, it's the antithesis of velocity, it slows you down. >> But data means everything, doesn't it? I mean, it means everything and nothing. So I think the challenge here is what data do the telcos have that is useful, valuable to me, right? So in the home environment, the fact that my broadband provider says, oh, by the way, you've got 20 gadgets on that network and 20 on that one... That's great, tell me what's on there. I probably don't know what's taking all my valuable bandwidth up. So I think there's security wrapped around that, telling me the way I'm using it if I'm getting the best out of my service. >> You pay for that? >> No, I'm saying they don't do it yet. I think- >> But would you pay for that? >> I think I would, yeah. >> Would you pay a lot for that? I would expect it to be there as part of my dashboard for my monthly fee. They're already charging me enough. >> Well, that's fine, but you pay a lot more in North America than I do in Europe, right? >> Yeah, no, that's true. >> You're really overpaying over there, right? >> Way overpaying. >> So, actually everybody's looking at these devices, right? So this is a radio operated device basically, right? And then why couldn't they benefit from this? This is like we need to like double click on this like 10 times to find out why telcos failed to leverage this device, right? But I think the problem is their reliance on regulations and their being close to the national sort of governments and local bodies and authorities, right? And in some countries, these telcos are totally controlled in very authoritarian ways, right? It's not like open, like in the west, most of the west. Like the world is bigger than five, six countries and we know that, right? But we end up talking about the major economies most of the time. >> Dave: Always. >> Chris: We have a topic we want to hit on. >> We do have a topic. Our last topic, Chris, it's for you. You guys have done an amazing job for the last 25 minutes talking about the industry, where it's going, the evolution. But Chris, you're registered blind throughout your career. You're a leading user of assertive technologies. Talk about diversity, equity, inclusion, accessibility, some of the things you're doing there. >> Well, we should have had 25 minutes on that and five minutes on- (all laugh) >> Lisa: You'll have to come back. >> Really interesting. So I've been looking at it. You're quite right, I've been using accessible technology on my iPhone and on my laptop for 10, 20 years now. It's amazing. And what I'm trying to get across to the industry is to think about inclusive design from day one. When you're designing an app or you're designing a service, make sure you... And telecom's a great example. In fact, there's quite a lot of sign language around here this week. If you look at all the events written, good to see that coming in. Obviously, no use to me whatsoever, but good for the hearing impaired, which by the way is the biggest category of disability in the world. Biggest chunk is hearing impaired, then vision impaired, and then cognitive and then physical. And therefore, whenever you're designing any service, my call to arms to people is think about how that's going to be used and how a blind person might use it or how a deaf person or someone with physical issues or any cognitive issues might use it. And a great example, the GSMA and I have been talking about the app they use for getting into the venue here. I downloaded it. I got the app downloaded and I'm calling my guys going, where's my badge? And he said, "it's top left." And because I work with a screen reader, they hadn't tagged it properly so I couldn't actually open my badge on my own. Now, they changed it overnight so it worked this morning, which is fantastic work by Trevor and the team. But it's those things that if you don't build it in from scratch, you really frustrate a whole group of users. And if you think about it, people with disabilities are excluded from so many services if they can't see the screen or they can't hear it. But it's also the elderly community who don't find it easy to get access to things. Smart speakers have been a real blessing in that respect 'cause you can now talk to that thing and it starts talking back to you. And then there's the people who can't afford it so we need to come down market. This event is about launching these thousand dollars plus devices. Come on, we need below a hundred dollars devices to get to the real mass market and get the next billion people in and then to educate people how to use it. And I think to go back to your previous point, I think governments are starting to realize how important this is about building the community within the countries. You've got some massive projects like NEOM in Saudi Arabia. If you have a look at that, if you get a chance, a fantastic development in the desert where they're building a new city from scratch and they're building it so anyone and everyone can get access to it. So in the past, it was all done very much by individual disability. So I used to use some very expensive, clunky blind tech stuff. I'm now using mostly mainstream. But my call to answer to say is, make sure when you develop an app, it's accessible, anyone can use it, you can talk to it, you can get whatever access you need and it will make all of our lives better. So as we age and hearing starts to go and sight starts to go and dexterity starts to go, then those things become very useful for everybody. >> That's a great point and what a great champion they have in you. Chris, Sarbjeet, Dave, thank you so much for kicking things off, analyzing day one keynote, the ecosystem day, talking about what velocity actually means, where we really are. We're going to have to have you guys back 'cause as you know, we can keep going, but we are out of time. But thank you. >> Pleasure. >> We had a very spirited, lively conversation. >> Thanks, Dave. >> Thank you very much. >> For our guests and for Dave Vellante, I'm Lisa Martin, you're watching theCUBE live in Barcelona, Spain at MWC '23. We'll be back after a short break. See you soon. (uplifting instrumental music)

(upbeat instrumental) >> Hello and welcome to this CUBE conversation. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE, here in Palo Alto, California. Got a great conversation with Robert Nishihara who's the co-founder and CEO of Anyscale. Robert, great to have you on this CUBE conversation. It's great to see you. We did your first Ray Summit a couple years ago and congratulations on your venture. Great to have you on. >> Thank you. Thanks for inviting me. >> So you're first time CEO out of Berkeley in Data. You got the Databricks is coming out of there. You got a bunch of activity coming from Berkeley. It's like a, it really is kind of like where a lot of innovations going on data. Anyscale has been one of those startups that has risen out of that scene. Right? You look at the success of what the Data lakes are now. Now you've got the generative AI. This has been a really interesting innovation market. This new wave is coming. Tell us what's going on with Anyscale right now, as you guys are gearing up and getting some growth. What's happening with the company? >> Yeah, well one of the most exciting things that's been happening in computing recently, is the rise of AI and the excitement about AI, and the potential for AI to really transform every industry. Now of course, one of the of the biggest challenges to actually making that happen is that doing AI, that AI is incredibly computationally intensive, right? To actually succeed with AI to actually get value out of AI. You're typically not just running it on your laptop, you're often running it and scaling it across thousands of machines, or hundreds of machines or GPUs, and to, so organizations and companies and businesses that do AI often end up building a large infrastructure team to manage the distributed systems, the computing to actually scale these applications. And that's a, that's a, a huge software engineering lift, right? And so, one of the goals for Anyscale is really to make that easy. To get to the point where, developers and teams and companies can succeed with AI. Can build these scalable AI applications, without really you know, without a huge investment in infrastructure with a lot of, without a lot of expertise in infrastructure, where really all they need to know is how to program on their laptop, how to program in Python. And if you have that, then that's really all you need to succeed with AI. So that's what we've been focused on. We're building Ray, which is an open source project that's been starting to get adopted by tons of companies, to actually train these models, to deploy these models, to do inference with these models, you know, to ingest and pre-process their data. And our goals, you know, here with the company are really to make Ray successful. To grow the Ray community, and then to build a great product around it and simplify the development and deployment, and productionization of machine learning for, for all these businesses. >> It's a great trend. Everyone wants developer productivity seeing that, clearly right now. And plus, developers are voting literally on what standards become. As you look at how the market is open source driven, a lot of that I love the model, love the Ray project love the, love the Anyscale value proposition. How big are you guys now, and how is that value proposition of Ray and Anyscale and foundational models coming together? Because it seems like you guys are in a perfect storm situation where you guys could get a real tailwind and draft off the the mega trend that everyone's getting excited. The new toy is ChatGPT. So you got to look at that and say, hey, I mean, come on, you guys did all the heavy lifting. >> Absolutely. >> You know how many people you are, and what's the what's the proposition for you guys these days? >> You know our company's about a hundred people, that a bit larger than that. Ray's been going really quickly. It's been, you know, companies using, like OpenAI uses Ray to train their models, like ChatGPT. Companies like Uber run all their deep learning you know, and classical machine learning on top of Ray. Companies like Shopify, Spotify, Netflix, Cruise, Lyft, Instacart, you know, Bike Dance. A lot of these companies are investing heavily in Ray for their machine learning infrastructure. And I think it's gotten to the point where, if you're one of these, you know type of businesses, and you're looking to revamp your machine learning infrastructure. If you're looking to enable new capabilities, you know make your teams more productive, increase, speed up the experimentation cycle, you know make it more performance, like build, you know, run applications that are more scalable, run them faster, run them in a more cost efficient way. All of these types of companies are at least evaluating Ray and Ray is an increasingly common choice there. I think if they're not using Ray, if many of these companies that end up not using Ray, they often end up building their own infrastructure. So Ray has been, the growth there has been incredibly exciting over the, you know we had our first in-person Ray Summit just back in August, and planning the next one for, for coming September. And so when you asked about the value proposition, I think there's there's really two main things, when people choose to go with Ray and Anyscale. One reason is about moving faster, right? It's about developer productivity, it's about speeding up the experimentation cycle, easily getting their models in production. You know, we hear many companies say that they, you know they, once they prototype a model, once they develop a model, it's another eight weeks, or 12 weeks to actually get that model in production. And that's a reason they talk to us. We hear companies say that, you know they've been training their models and, and doing inference on a single machine, and they've been sort of scaling vertically, like using bigger and bigger machines. But they, you know, you can only do that for so long, and at some point you need to go beyond a single machine and that's when they start talking to us. Right? So one of the main value propositions is around moving faster. I think probably the phrase I hear the most is, companies saying that they don't want their machine learning people to have to spend all their time configuring infrastructure. All this is about productivity. >> Yeah. >> The other. >> It's the big brains in the company. That are being used to do remedial tasks that should be automated right? I mean that's. >> Yeah, and I mean, it's hard stuff, right? It's also not these people's area of expertise, and or where they're adding the most value. So all of this is around developer productivity, moving faster, getting to market faster. The other big value prop and the reason people choose Ray and choose Anyscale, is around just providing superior infrastructure. This is really, can we scale more? You know, can we run it faster, right? Can we run it in a more cost effective way? We hear people saying that they're not getting good GPU utilization with the existing tools they're using, or they can't scale beyond a certain point, or you know they don't have a way to efficiently use spot instances to save costs, right? Or their clusters, you know can't auto scale up and down fast enough, right? These are all the kinds of things that Ray and Anyscale, where Ray and Anyscale add value and solve these kinds of problems. >> You know, you bring up great points. Auto scaling concept, early days, it was easy getting more compute. Now it's complicated. They're built into more integrated apps in the cloud. And you mentioned those companies that you're working with, that's impressive. Those are like the big hardcore, I call them hardcore. They have a good technical teams. And as the wave starts to move from these companies that were hyper scaling up all the time, the mainstream are just developers, right? So you need an interface in, so I see the dots connecting with you guys and I want to get your reaction. Is that how you see it? That you got the alphas out there kind of kicking butt, building their own stuff, alpha developers and infrastructure. But mainstream just wants programmability. They want that heavy lifting taken care of for them. Is that kind of how you guys see it? I mean, take us through that. Because to get crossover to be democratized, the automation's got to be there. And for developer productivity to be in, it's got to be coding and programmability. >> That's right. Ultimately for AI to really be successful, and really you know, transform every industry in the way we think it has the potential to. It has to be easier to use, right? And that is, and being easier to use, there's many dimensions to that. But an important one is that as a developer to do AI, you shouldn't have to be an expert in distributed systems. You shouldn't have to be an expert in infrastructure. If you do have to be, that's going to really limit the number of people who can do this, right? And I think there are so many, all of the companies we talk to, they don't want to be in the business of building and managing infrastructure. It's not that they can't do it. But it's going to slow them down, right? They want to allocate their time and their energy toward building their product, right? To building a better product, getting their product to market faster. And if we can take the infrastructure work off of the critical path for them, that's going to speed them up, it's going to simplify their lives. And I think that is critical for really enabling all of these companies to succeed with AI. >> Talk about the customers you guys are talking to right now, and how that translates over. Because I think you hit a good thread there. Data infrastructure is critical. Managed services are coming online, open sources continuing to grow. You have these people building their own, and then if they abandon it or don't scale it properly, there's kind of consequences. 'Cause it's a system you mentioned, it's a distributed system architecture. It's not as easy as standing up a monolithic app these days. So when you guys go to the marketplace and talk to customers, put the customers in buckets. So you got the ones that are kind of leaning in, that are pretty peaked, probably working with you now, open source. And then what's the customer profile look like as you go mainstream? Are they looking to manage service, looking for more architectural system, architecture approach? What's the, Anyscale progression? How do you engage with your customers? What are they telling you? >> Yeah, so many of these companies, yes, they're looking for managed infrastructure 'cause they want to move faster, right? Now the kind of these profiles of these different customers, they're three main workloads that companies run on Anyscale, run with Ray. It's training related workloads, and it is serving and deployment related workloads, like actually deploying your models, and it's batch processing, batch inference related workloads. Like imagine you want to do computer vision on tons and tons of, of images or videos, or you want to do natural language processing on millions of documents or audio, or speech or things like that, right? So the, I would say the, there's a pretty large variety of use cases, but the most common you know, we see tons of people working with computer vision data, you know, computer vision problems, natural language processing problems. And it's across many different industries. We work with companies doing drug discovery, companies doing you know, gaming or e-commerce, right? Companies doing robotics or agriculture. So there's a huge variety of the types of industries that can benefit from AI, and can really get a lot of value out of AI. And, but the, but the problems are the same problems that they all want to solve. It's like how do you make your team move faster, you know succeed with AI, be more productive, speed up the experimentation, and also how do you do this in a more performant way, in a faster, cheaper, in a more cost efficient, more scalable way. >> It's almost like the cloud game is coming back to AI and these foundational models, because I was just on a podcast, we recorded our weekly podcast, and I was just riffing with Dave Vellante, my co-host on this, were like, hey, in the early days of Amazon, if you want to build an app, you just, you have to build a data center, and then you go to now you go to the cloud, cloud's easier, pay a little money, penny's on the dollar, you get your app up and running. Cloud computing is born. With foundation models in generative AI. The old model was hard, heavy lifting, expensive, build out, before you get to do anything, as you mentioned time. So I got to think that you're pretty much in a good position with this foundational model trend in generative AI because I just looked at the foundation map, foundation models, map of the ecosystem. You're starting to see layers of, you got the tooling, you got platform, you got cloud. It's filling out really quickly. So why is Anyscale important to this new trend? How do you talk to people when they ask you, you know what does ChatGPT mean for Anyscale? And how does the financial foundational model growth, fit into your plan? >> Well, foundational models are hugely important for the industry broadly. Because you're going to have these really powerful models that are trained that you know, have been trained on tremendous amounts of data. tremendous amounts of computes, and that are useful out of the box, right? That people can start to use, and query, and get value out of, without necessarily training these huge models themselves. Now Ray fits in and Anyscale fit in, in a number of places. First of all, they're useful for creating these foundation models. Companies like OpenAI, you know, use Ray for this purpose. Companies like Cohere use Ray for these purposes. You know, IBM. If you look at, there's of course also open source versions like GPTJ, you know, created using Ray. So a lot of these large language models, large foundation models benefit from training on top of Ray. And, but of course for every company training and creating these huge foundation models, you're going to have many more that are fine tuning these models with their own data. That are deploying and serving these models for their own applications, that are building other application and business logic around these models. And that's where Ray also really shines, because Ray you know, is, can provide common infrastructure for all of these workloads. The training, the fine tuning, the serving, the data ingest and pre-processing, right? The hyper parameter tuning, the and and so on. And so where the reason Ray and Anyscale are important here, is that, again, foundation models are large, foundation models are compute intensive, doing you know, using both creating and using these foundation models requires tremendous amounts of compute. And there there's a big infrastructure lift to make that happen. So either you are using Ray and Anyscale to do this, or you are building the infrastructure and managing the infrastructure yourself. Which you can do, but it's, it's hard. >> Good luck with that. I always say good luck with that. I mean, I think if you really need to do, build that hardened foundation, you got to go all the way. And I think this, this idea of composability is interesting. How is Ray working with OpenAI for instance? Take, take us through that. Because I think you're going to see a lot of people talking about, okay I got trained models, but I'm going to have not one, I'm going to have many. There's big debate that OpenAI is going to be the mother of all LLMs, but now, but really people are also saying that to be many more, either purpose-built or specific. The fusion and these things come together there's like a blending of data, and that seems to be a value proposition. How does Ray help these guys get their models up? Can you take, take us through what Ray's doing for say OpenAI and others, and how do you see the models interacting with each other? >> Yeah, great question. So where, where OpenAI uses Ray right now, is for the training workloads. Training both to create ChatGPT and models like that. There's both a supervised learning component, where you're pre-training this model on doing supervised pre-training with example data. There's also a reinforcement learning component, where you are fine-tuning the model and continuing to train the model, but based on human feedback, based on input from humans saying that, you know this response to this question is better than this other response to this question, right? And so Ray provides the infrastructure for scaling the training across many, many GPUs, many many machines, and really running that in an efficient you know, performance fault tolerant way, right? And so, you know, open, this is not the first version of OpenAI's infrastructure, right? They've gone through iterations where they did start with building the infrastructure themselves. They were using tools like MPI. But at some point, you know, given the complexity, given the scale of what they're trying to do, you hit a wall with MPI and that's going to happen with a lot of other companies in this space. And at that point you don't have many other options other than to use Ray or to build your own infrastructure. >> That's awesome. And then your vision on this data interaction, because the old days monolithic models were very rigid. You couldn't really interface with them. But we're kind of seeing this future of data fusion, data interaction, data blending at large scale. What's your vision? How do you, what's your vision of where this goes? Because if this goes the way people think. You can have this data chemistry kind of thing going on where people are integrating all kinds of data with each other at large scale. So you need infrastructure, intelligence, reasoning, a lot of code. Is this something that you see? What's your vision in all this? Take us through. >> AI is going to be used everywhere right? It's, we see this as a technology that's going to be ubiquitous, and is going to transform every business. I mean, imagine you make a product, maybe you were making a tool like Photoshop or, or whatever the, you know, tool is. The way that people are going to use your tool, is not by investing, you know, hundreds of hours into learning all of the different, you know specific buttons they need to press and workflows they need to go through it. They're going to talk to it, right? They're going to say, ask it to do the thing they want it to do right? And it's going to do it. And if it, if it doesn't know what it's want, what it's, what's being asked of it. It's going to ask clarifying questions, right? And then you're going to clarify, and you're going to have a conversation. And this is going to make many many many kinds of tools and technology and products easier to use, and lower the barrier to entry. And so, and this, you know, many companies fit into this category of trying to build products that, and trying to make them easier to use, this is just one kind of way it can, one kind of way that AI will will be used. But I think it's, it's something that's pretty ubiquitous. >> Yeah. It'll be efficient, it'll be efficiency up and down the stack, and will change the productivity equation completely. You just highlighted one, I don't want to fill out forms, just stand up my environment for me. And then start coding away. Okay well this is great stuff. Final word for the folks out there watching, obviously new kind of skill set for hiring. You guys got engineers, give a plug for the company, for Anyscale. What are you looking for? What are you guys working on? Give a, take the last minute to put a plug in for the company. >> Yeah well if you're interested in AI and if you think AI is really going to be transformative, and really be useful for all these different industries. We are trying to provide the infrastructure to enable that to happen, right? So I think there's the potential here, to really solve an important problem, to get to the point where developers don't need to think about infrastructure, don't need to think about distributed systems. All they think about is their application logic, and what they want their application to do. And I think if we can achieve that, you know we can be the foundation or the platform that enables all of these other companies to succeed with AI. So that's where we're going. I think something like this has to happen if AI is going to achieve its potential, we're looking for, we're hiring across the board, you know, great engineers, on the go-to-market side, product managers, you know people who want to really, you know, make this happen. >> Awesome well congratulations. I know you got some good funding behind you. You're in a good spot. I think this is happening. I think generative AI and foundation models is going to be the next big inflection point, as big as the pc inter-networking, internet and smartphones. This is a whole nother application framework, a whole nother set of things. So this is the ground floor. Robert, you're, you and your team are right there. Well done. >> Thank you so much. >> All right. Thanks for coming on this CUBE conversation. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE. Breaking down a conversation around AI and scaling up in this new next major inflection point. This next wave is foundational models, generative AI. And thanks to ChatGPT, the whole world's now knowing about it. So it really is changing the game and Anyscale is right there, one of the hot startups, that is in good position to ride this next wave. Thanks for watching. (upbeat instrumental)

(upbeat music) >> Today more than ever before, organizations are striving to gain a competitive advantage, deliver more value to customers, reduce risk, and respond more quickly to the needs of businesses. Now, to achieve these goals, organizations need easy access to a single view of accurate, consistent and very importantly, trusted data. If it's not trusted, nobody's going to use it and all in near real time. However, the growing volumes and complexities of data make this difficult to achieve in practice. Not to mention the organizational challenges that have evolved as data becomes increasingly important to winning in the marketplace. Specifically as data grows, so does the prevalence of data silos, making, integrating and leveraging data from internal and external sources a real challenge. Now, in this final segment, we'll hear from Joe Lichtenberg who's the global head of product and industry marketing, and he's going to discuss how smart data fabrics can be applied to different industries. And by way of these use cases, we'll probe Joe's vast knowledge base and ask him to highlight how InterSystems, which touts a next gen approach to Customer 360, how the company leverages a smart data fabric to provide organizations of varying sizes and sectors in financial services, supply chain, logistics and healthcare with a better, faster and easier way to deliver value to the business. Joe welcome, great to have you here. >> Thank you, it's great to be here. That was some intro. I could not have said it better myself, so thank you for that. >> Thank you. Well, we're happy to have you on this show now. I understand- >> It's great to be here. >> You you've made a career helping large businesses with technology solutions, small businesses, and then scale those solutions to meet whatever needs they had. And of course, you're a vocal advocate as is your company of data fabrics. We talked to Scott earlier about data fabrics, how it relates to data mesh big discussions in the industry. So tell us more about your perspective. >> Sure, so first I would say that I have been in this industry for a very long time so I've been like you, I'm sure, for decades working with customers and with technology, really to solve these same kinds of challenges. So for decades, companies have been working with lots and lots of data and trying to get business value to solve all sorts of different challenges. And I will tell you that I've seen many different approaches and different technologies over the years. So, early on, point to point connections with custom coding, and I've worked with integration platforms 20 years ago with the advent of web services and service-oriented architectures and exposing endpoints with wisdom and getting access to disparate data from across the organization. And more recently, obviously with data warehouses and data lakes and now moving workloads to the cloud with cloud-based data marts and data warehouses. Lots of approaches that I've seen over the years but yet still challenges remain in terms of getting access to a single trusted real-time view of data. And so, recently, we ran a survey of more than 500 different business users across different industries and 86% told us that they still lack confidence in using their data to make decisions. That's a huge number, right? And if you think about all of the work and all of the technology and approaches over the years, that is a surprising number and drilling into why that is, there were three main reasons. One is latency. So the amount of time that it takes to access the data and process the data and make it fit for purpose by the time the business has access to the data and the information that they need, the opportunity has passed. >> Elapsed time, not speed a light, right? But that too maybe. >> But it takes a long time if you think about these processes and you have to take the data and copy it and run ETL processes and prepare it. So that's one, one is just the amount of data that's disparate in data silos. So still struggling with data that is dispersed across different systems in different formats. And the third, is data democratization. So the business really wants to have access to the data so that they can drill into the data and ask ad hoc questions and the next question and drill into the information and see where it leads them rather than having sort of pre-structured data and pre-structured queries and having to go back to IT and put the request back on the queue again and waiting. >> So it takes too long, the data's too hard to get to 'cause it's in silos and the data lacks context because it's technical people that are serving up the data to the business people. >> Exactly. >> And there's a mismatch. >> Exactly right. So they call that data democratization or giving the business access to the data and the tools that they need to get the answers that they need in the moment. >> So the skeptic in me, 'cause you're right I have seen this story before and the problems seem like they keep coming up, year after year, decade after decade. But I'm an optimist and so. >> As am I. >> And so I sometimes say, okay, same wine new bottle, but it feels like it's different this time around with data fabrics. You guys talk about smart data fabrics from your perspective, what's different? >> Yeah, it's very exciting and it's a fundamentally different approach. So if you think about all of these prior approaches, and by the way, all of these prior approaches have added value, right? It's not like they were bad, but there's still limitations and the business still isn't getting access to all the data that they need in the moment, right? So data warehouses are terrific if you know the questions that you want answered and you take the data and you structure the data in advance. And so now you're serving the business with sort of pre-planned answers to pre-planned queries, right? The data fabric, what we call a smart data fabric is fundamentally different. It's a fundamentally different approach in that rather than sort of in batch mode, taking the data and making it fit for purpose with all the complexity and delays associated with it, with a data fabric where accessing the data on demand as it's needed, as it's requested, either by the business or by applications or by the data scientists directly from the source systems. >> So you're not copying it necessarily to that to make that you're not FTPing it, for instance. I've got it, you take it, you're basically using the same source. >> You're pulling the data on demand as it's being requested by the consumers. And then all of the data management processes that need to be applied for integration and transformation to get the data into a consistent format and business rules and analytic queries. And with Jess showed with machine learning, predictive prescriptive analytics all sorts of powerful capabilities are built into the fabric so that as you're pulling the data on demand, right, all of these processes are being applied and the net result is you're addressing these limitations around latency and silos that we've seen in the past. >> Okay, so you've talked about you have a lot of customers, InterSystems does in different industries supply chain, financial services, manufacturing. We heard from just healthcare. What are you seeing in terms of applications of smart data fabrics in the real world? >> Yeah, so we see it in every industry. So InterSystems, as you know, has been around now for 43 years, and we have tens of thousands of customers in every industry. And this architectural pattern now is providing value for really critical use cases in every industry. So I'm happy to talk to you about some that we're seeing. I could actually spend like three hours here and there but I'm very passionate about working with customers and there's all sorts of exciting. >> What are some of your favorites? >> So, obviously supply chain right now is going through a very challenging time. So the combination of what's happening with the pandemic and disruptions and now I understand eggs are difficult to come by I just heard on NPR. >> Yeah and it's in part a data problem and a big part of data problem, is that fair? >> Yeah and so, in supply chain, first there's supply chain visibility. So organizations want a real time or near real time expansive view of what's happening across the entire supply chain from a supply all the way through distribution, right? So that's only part of the issue but that's a huge sort of real-time data silos problem. So if you think about your extended supply chain, it's complicated enough with all the systems and silos inside your firewall, before all of your suppliers even just thinking about your tier one suppliers let alone tier two and tier three. And then building on top of real-time visibility is what the industry calls a control tower, what we call the ultimate control tower. And so it's built in analytics to be able to sense disruptions and exceptions as they occur and predict the likelihood of these disruptions occurring. And then having data driven and analytics driven guidance in terms of the best way to deal with these disruptions. So for example, an order is missing line items or a cargo ship is stuck off port somewhere. What do you do about it? Do you reroute a different cargo ship, right? Do you take an order that's en route to a different client and reroute that? What's the cost associated? What's the impact associated with it? So that's a huge issue right now around control towers for supply chain. So that's one. >> Can I ask you a question about that? Because you and I have both seen a lot but we've never seen, at least I haven't the economy completely shut down like it was in March of 2020, and now we're seeing this sort of slingshot effect almost like you're driving on the highway sometimes you don't know why, but all of a sudden you slow down and then you speed up, you think it's okay then you slow down again. Do you feel like you guys can help get a handle on that product because it goes on both sides. Sometimes you can't get the product, sometimes there's too much of a product as well and that's not good for business. >> Yeah, absolutely. You want to smooth out the peaks and valleys. >> Yeah. >> And that's a big business goal, business challenge for supply chain executives, right? So you want to make sure that you can respond to demand but you don't want to overstock because there's cost associated with that as well. So how do you optimize the supply chains and it's very much a data silo and a real time challenge. So it's a perfect fit for this new architectural pattern. >> All right, what else? >> So if we look at financial services, we have many, many customers in financial services and that's another industry where they have many different sources of data that all have information that organizations can use to really move the needle if they could just get to that single source of truth in real time. So we sort of bucket many different implementations and use cases that we do around what we call Business 360 and Customer 360. So Business 360, there's all sorts of ways to add business value in terms of having a real-time operational view across all of the different GOs and parts of the business, especially in these very large global financial services institutions like capital markets and investment firms and so forth. So around Business 360, having a realtime view of risk, operational performance regulatory compliance, things like that. Customer 360, there's a whole set of use cases around Customer 360 around hyper-personalization of customers and in realtime next best action looking to see how you can sell more increase share of wallet, cross-sell, upsell to customers. We also do a lot in terms of predicting customer churn. So if you have all the historical data and what's the likelihood of customers churning to be able to proactively intercede, right? It's much more cost effective to keep assets under management and keep clients rather than going and getting new clients to come to the firm. A very interesting use case from one of our customers in Latin America, so Banco do Brasil largest bank in all of Latin America and they have a very innovative CTO who's always looking for new ways to move the needle for the bank. And so one of their ideas and we're working with them to do this is how can they generate net new revenue streams by bringing in new business to the bank? And so they identified a large percentage of the population in Latin America that does no banking. So they have no banking history not only with Banco do Brasil, but with any bank. So there's a fair amount of risk associated with offering services to this segment of the population that's not associated with any banks or financial institutions. >> There is no historical data on them, there's no. >> So it's a data challenge. And so, they're bringing in data from a variety of different sources, social media, open source data that they find online and so forth. And with us running risk models to identify which are the citizens that there's acceptable risk to offer their services. >> It's going to be huge market of unbanked people in vision Latin America. >> Wow, that's interesting. >> Yeah, yeah, totally vision. >> And if you can lower the risk and you could tap that market and be first >> And they are, yeah. >> Yeah. >> So very exciting. Manufacturing, we know industry 4.0 which is about taking the OT data, so the data from the MES systems and the streaming data, real-time streaming data from the machine controllers and integrating it with the IT data, so your data warehouses and your ERP systems and so forth to have not only a real-time view of manufacturing from supply and source all the way through demand but also predictive maintenance and things like that. So that's very big right now in manufacturing. >> Kind of cool to hear these use cases beyond your healthcare, which is obviously, your wheelhouse, Scott defined this term of smart data fabrics, different than data fabrics, I guess. So when we think about these use cases what's the value add of so-called smart data fabrics? >> Yeah, it's a great question. So we did not define the term data fabric or enterprise data fabric. The analysts now are all over it. They're all saying it's the future of data management. It's a fundamentally different approach this architectural approach to be able to access the data on demand. The canonical definition of a data fabric is to access the data where it lies and apply a set of data management processes, but it does not include analytics, interestingly. And so we firmly believe that most of these use cases gain value from having analytics built directly into the fabric. So whether that's business rules or predictive analytics to predict the likelihood of a customer churn or a machine on the shop floor failing or prescriptive analytics. So if there's a problem in the supply chain, what's the guidance for the supply chain managers to take the best action, right? Prescriptive analytics based on data. So rather than taking the data and the data fabric and moving it to another environment to run those analytics where you have complexity and latency, having tall of those analytics capabilities built directly into the fabric, which is why we call it a smart data fabric, brings a lot of value to our customers. >> So simplifies the whole data lifecycle, data pipelining, the hyper-specialized roles that you have to have, you can really just focus on one platform, is that? >> Exactly, basically, yeah. And it's a simplicity of architecture and faster speed to production. So a big differentiator for our technology, for InterSystems, Iris, is most if not all of the capabilities that are needed are built into one engine, right? So you don't need to stitch together 10 or 15 or 20 different data management services for relational database in a non-relational database and a caching layer and a data warehouse and security and so forth. And so you can do that. There's many ways to build this data fabric architecture, right? InterSystems is not the only way. >> Right? >> But if you can speed and simplify the implementation of the fabric by having most of what you need in one engine, one product that gets you to where you need to go much, much faster. >> Joe, how can people learn more about smart data Fabric some of the use cases that you've presented here? >> Yeah, come to our website, intersystems.com. If you go to intersystems.com/smartdatafabric that'll take you there. >> I know that you have like probably dozens more examples but it would be cool- >> I do. >> If people reach out to you, how can they get in touch? >> Oh, I would love that. So feel free to reach out to me on LinkedIn. It's Joe Lichtenberg I think it's linkedin.com/joeLichtenberg and I'd love to connect. >> Awesome. Joe, thanks so much for your time. Really appreciate it. >> It was great to be here. Thank you, Dave. >> All right, I hope you've enjoyed our program today. You know, we heard Scott now he helped us understand this notion of data fabrics and smart data fabrics and how they can address the data challenges faced by the vast majority of organizations today. Jess Jody's demo was awesome. It was really a highlight of the program where she showed the smart data fabrics inaction and Joe Lichtenberg, we just heard from him dug in to some of the prominent use cases and proof points. We hope this content was educational and inspires you to action. Now, don't forget all these videos are available on Demand to watch, rewatch and share. Go to theCUBE.net, check out siliconangle.com for all the news and analysis and we'll summarize the highlights of this program and go to intersystems.com because there are a ton of resources there. In particular, there's a knowledge hub where you'll find some excellent educational content and online learning courses. There's a resource library with analyst reports, technical documentation videos, some great freebies. So check it out. This is Dave Vellante. On behalf of theCUBE and our supporter, InterSystems, thanks for watching and we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

(electronic music) (graphics whooshing) (graphics tinkling) >> Telecommunications is well north of a trillion-dollar business globally, that provides critical services on which virtually everyone on the planet relies. Dramatic changes are occurring in the sector, and one of the most important dimensions of this change is the underlying infrastructure that powers global telecommunications networks. Telcos have been thawing out, if you will, they're frozen infrastructure, modernizing. They're opening up, they're disaggregating their infrastructure, separating, for example, the control plane from the data plane, and adopting open standards. Telco infrastructure is becoming software-defined. And leading telcos are adopting cloud native microservices to help make developers more productive, so they can respond more quickly to market changes. They're embracing technology consumption models, and selectively leveraging the cloud where it makes sense. And these changes are being driven by market forces, the root of which stem from customer demand. So from a customer's perspective, they want services, and they want them fast. Meaning, not only at high speeds, but also they want them now. Customers want the latest, the greatest, and they want these services to be reliable and stable with high quality of service levels. And they want them to be highly cost-effective. Hello and welcome to this preview of Mobile World Congress 2023. My name is Dave Vellante, and at this year's event, theCUBE has a major presence at the show made possible by Dell Technologies, and with me to unpack the trends in telco, and look ahead to MWC23 are Dennis Hoffman, he's the Senior Vice President and General Manager of Dell's telecom business, and Aaron Chaisson, who is the Vice President of Telecom and Edge Solutions Marketing at Dell Technologies, gentlemen, welcome, thanks so much for spending some time with me. >> Thank you, Dave. >> Thanks, glad to be here. >> So, Dennis, let's start with you. Telcos in recent history have been slow to deliver and to monetize new services, and a large part because their purpose-built infrastructure could been somewhat of a barrier to responding to all these market forces. In many ways, this is what makes telecoms, really this market so exciting. So from your perspective, where is the action in this space? >> Yeah, the action Dave is kind of all over the place, partly because it's an ecosystem play. I think it's been, as you point out, the disaggregation trend has been going on for a while. The opportunity's been clear, but it has taken a few years to get all of the vendors, and all of the components that make up a solution, as well as the operators themselves, to a point where we can start putting this stuff together, and actually achieving some of the promise. >> So Aaron, for those who might not be as familiar with Dell's a activities in this area, here we are just ahead of Mobile World Congress, it's the largest event for telecoms, what should people know about Dell? And what's the key message to this industry? >> Sure, yeah, I think everybody knows that there's a lot of innovation that's been happening in the industry of late. One of the major trends that we're seeing is that shift from more of a vertically-integrated technology stack, to more of a disaggregated set of solutions, and that trend has actually created a ton of innovation that's happening across the industry, or along technology vendors and providers, the telecoms themselves. And so, one of the things that Dell's really looking to do is, as Dennis talked about, is build out a really strong ecosystem of partners and vendors that we're working closely together to be able to collaborate on new technologies, new capabilities that are solving challenges that the networks are seeing today. Be able to create new solutions built on those in order to be able to bring new value to the industry. And then finally, we want to help both partners, as well as our CSP providers activate those changes, so that they can bring new solutions to market, to be able to serve their customers. And so, the key areas that we're really focusing on with our customers is, technologies to help modernize the network, to be able to capitalize on the value of open architectures, and bring price performance to what they're expecting, and availability that they're expecting today. And then also, partner with the lines of business to be able to take these new capabilities, produce new solutions, and then deliver new value to their customers. >> Great, thank you, Aaron. So Dennis, you and I, known you for a number of years. I've watched you, you're are a trend spotter. You're a strategic thinker. I love now the fact that you're running a business that you had to go out and analyze, and now you got to make it happen. So, how would you describe Dell's strategy in this market? >> Well, it's really two things. And I appreciate the comment, I'm not sure how much of a trend spotter I am, but I certainly enjoy, and I think I'm fascinated by what's going on in this industry right now. Our two main thrusts, Dave, are first round, trying to catalyze that ecosystem, be a force for pulling together a group of folks, vendors that have been flying in fairly loose formation for a couple of years, to deliver the kinds of solutions that move the needle forward, and produce the outcomes that our network operator customers can actually buy and consume, and deploy, and have them be supported. The other thing is, there's a couple of very key technology areas that need to be advanced here. This ends up being a much anticipated year in telecom. Because of the delivery of some open infrastructure solutions that have being developed for years. With the Intel Sapphire Rapids program coming to market, we've of course got some purpose-built solutions on top of that for telecommunications networks. Some expanded partnerships in the area of multi-cloud infrastructure. And so, I would say the second main thrust is, we've got to bring some intellectual property to the party. It's not just about pulling the ecosystem together. But those two things together really form the twin thrusts of our strategy. >> Okay, so as you point out, you obviously not going to go alone in this market, it's way too broad, there's so many routes to market, partnerships, obviously very, very important. So, can you share a little bit more about the ecosystem and partners, maybe give some examples of some of the key partners that you'd be highlighting or working with, maybe at Mobile World Congress, or other activities this year? >> Yeah, absolutely. As Aaron touched on, I'm a visual thinker. The way I think about this thing is a very, very vertical architecture is tipping sideways. It's becoming horizontal. And all of the layers of that horizontal architecture are really where the partnerships are at. So, let's start at the bottom, silicon. The silicon ecosystem is very much focused on this market. And producing very specific products to enable open, high performance telecom networks. That's both in the form of host processors, as well as accelerators. One layer up, of course, is the stuff that we're known for, subsystems, compute storage, the hardware infrastructure that forms the foundation for telco clouds. A layer above that, all of the cloud software layer, the virtualization and containerization software, and all of the usual suspects there, all of whom are very good partners of ours, and we're looking to expand that pretty broadly this year. And then at the top of the layer cake, all of the network functions, all of the VNF's and CNF's that were once kind of the top of proprietary stacks, that are now opening up and being delivered, as well-formed containers that can run on these clouds. So, we're focusing on all of those, if you will, product partnerships, and there is a services wrapper around all of it. The systems integration necessary to make these systems part of a carrier's network, which of course, has been running for a long time, and needs to be integrated with in a very specific way. And so, all of that, together kind of forms the ecosystem, all of those are partners, and we're really excited about being at the heart of it. >> Interesting, it's not like we've never seen this movie before, which is, it's sort of repeating itself in telco. Aaron, you heard my little intro up front about the need to modernize infrastructure, I wonder if I could touch on another major trend, which we're seeing is the cloud, and I'm talkin' about not only public, but private and hybrid cloud. The public cloud is an opportunity, but it's also a threat for telcos. Telcom providers are lookin' to the public cloud for specific use cases, you think about like bursting for an iPhone launch or whatever. But at the same time, these cloud vendors, they're sort of competing with telcos. They're providing local zones, for example, sometimes trying to do an end run on the telco connectivity services, so telecom companies, they have to find the right balance between what they own and what they rent. And I wonder if you could add some color as to what you see in the market and what Dell specifically is doing to support these trends. >> Yeah, and I think the most important thing is what we're seeing, as you said, is these aren't things that we haven't seen before. And I think that telecom is really going through their own set of cloud transformations, and so, one of the hot topics in the industry now is, what is telco cloud? And what does that look like going forward? And it's going to be, as you said, a combination of services that they offer, services that they leverage. But at the end of the day, it's going to help them modernize how they deliver telecommunication services to their customers, and then provide value added services on top of that. From a Dell perspective, we're really providing the technologies to provide the underpinnings to lay a foundation on which that network can be built, whether that's best of breed servers that are built in design for the telecom environments. Recently, we announced our Infer block program, in partnering with virtualization providers, to be able to provide engineered systems that dramatically simplify how our customers can deploy, manage, and lifecycle manage throughout day two operations, an entire cloud environment. And whether they're using Red Hat, whether they're using Wind River, or VMware, or other virtualization layers, they can deploy the right virtualization layer at the right part of their network to support the applications they're looking to drive. And Dell is looking to solve how they simplify and manage all of that, both from a hardware, as well as on management software perspective. So, this is really what Dell's doing to, again, partner with the broader technology community, to help make that telco cloud a reality. >> Aaron, let's stay here for a second, I'm interested in some of the use cases that you're going after with customers. You've got Edge infrastructure, remote work, 5G, where's security fit, what are the focus areas for Dell, and can we double click on that a little bit? >> Yeah, I mean, I think there's two main areas of telecommunication industry that we're talking to. One, we've really been talking about the sort of the network buyer, how do they modernize the core, the network Edge, the RAN capabilities to deliver traditional telecommunication services, and modernize that as they move into 5G and beyond. I think the other side of the business is, telecoms are really looking from a line of business perspective to figure out how do they monetize that network, and be able to deliver value added services to their enterprise customers on top of these new networks. So, you were just touching on a couple of things that are really critical. In the enterprise space, AI and IoT is driving a tremendous amount of innovation out there, and there's a need for being able to support and manage Edge compute at scale, be able to provide connectivity, like private mobility, and 4G and 5G, being able to support things like mobile workforces and client capabilities, to be able to access these devices that are around all of these Edge environments of the enterprises. And telecoms are seeing as that, as an opportunity for them to not only provide connectivity, but how do they extend their cloud out into these enterprise environments with compute, with connectivity, with client and connectivity resources, and even also provide protection for those environments as well. So, these are areas that Dell is historically very strong at. Being able to provide compute, be able to provide connectivity, and being able to provide data protection and client services, we are looking to work closely with lines of businesses to be able to develop solutions that they can bring to market in combination with us, to be able to serve their end user customers and their enterprises. So, those are really the two key areas, not only network buyer, but being able to enable the lines of business to go and capitalize on the services they're developing for their customers. >> I think that line of business aspect is key, I mean, the telcos have had to sit back and provide the plumbing, cost per bit goes down, data consumption going through the roof, all the over at the top guys have had the field day with the data, and the customer relationships, and now it's almost like the revenge (chuckles) of the telcos. Dennis, I wonder if we could talk about the future. What can we expect in the years ahead from Dell, if you break out the binoculars a little bit. >> Yeah, I think you hit it earlier. We've seen the movie before. This has happened in the IT data center. We went from proprietary vertical solutions to horizontal open systems. We went from client server to software-defined open hardware cloud native. And the trend is likely to be exactly that, in the telecom industry because that's what the operators want. They're not naive to what's happened in the IT data center, they all run very large data centers. And they're trying to get some of the scale economies. Some of the agility, the cost of ownership benefits for the reasons Aaron just discussed. It's clear as you point out, this industry's been really defined by the inability to stop investing, and the difficulty to monetize that investment. And I think now, everybody's looking at this 5G, and frankly, 5G plus 6G, and beyond, as the opportunity to really go get a chunk of that revenue, and Enterprise Edge is the target. >> And 5G is touching so many industries, and that kind of brings me, Aaron into Mobile World Congress. I mean, you look at the floor layout, it's amazing. You got Industry 4.0, you've got our traditional industry and telco colliding. There's public policy. So, give us a teaser to Mobile World Congress 23, what's on deck at the show from Dell? >> Yeah, we're really excited about Mobile World Congress. This, as you know, is a massive event for the industry every year. And it's really the event that the whole industry uses to kick off this coming year. So, we're going to be using this obviously to talk to our customers and our partners about what Dell's looking to do, and what we're innovating on right now, and what we're looking to partner with them around. In the front of the house, we're going to be doin', we're going to be highlighting 13 different solutions and demonstrations to be able to show our customers what we're doing today, and show them the use cases, and put into action, so they get to actually look and feel, and touch, and experience what it is that we're working around. Obviously, meetings are important, everybody knows Mobile World Congress is the place to get those meetings and kickoff for the year. So, we're going to have, we're lookin' at several hundred meetings, hundreds of meetings that we're going to be lookin' to have across the industry with our customers and partners in the broader community. And of course, we've also got technology that's going to be in a variety of different partner spaces as well. So, you can come and see us in hall three, but we're also going to have technologies, kind of spread all over the floor. And of course, there's always theCUBE. You're going to be able to see us live all four days, all day, every day. You're going to be hearing our executives, our partners, our customers, talk about what Dell is doing to innovate in the industry, and how we're looking to leverage the broader, open ecosystem to be able to transform the network, and what we're lookin' to do. So, in that space, we're going to be focusing on what we're doing from an ecosystem perspective, our infrastructure focus. We'll be talking about what we're doing to support telco cloud transformation. And then finally, as we talked about earlier, how are we helping the lines of business within our telecoms monetize the opportunity? So, these are all different things we're really excited to be focusing on, and look forward to the event next month. >> Yeah, it's going to be awesome in Barcelona at the FITA, as you say, Dell's big presence in hall three, Orange is in there, Deutsche Telecom, Intel's in hall three. VMware's there, Nokia, Vodafone, you got some great things to see there. Check that out, and of course, theCUBE, we are super excited to be collaborating with you, we got a great setup. We're in the walkway right between halls four and five, right across from the government of Catalonia, who are the host partners for the event, so there's going to be a ton of action there. Guys, can't wait to see you there, really appreciate your time today. >> Great, thanks. >> Alright, Mobile World Congress, theCUBE's coverage starts on February 27th right after the keynotes. So, first thing in the morning, east coast time, we'll be broadcasting is, Aaron said all week, Monday through Thursday in the show floor, check that out at thecube.net. siliconangle.com has all the written coverage, and go to dell.com, see what's happenin' there, have all the action from the event. Don't miss us, this is Dave Vellante, we'll see you there. (electronic music)

>> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> Confidential computing is a technology that aims to enhance data privacy and security by providing encrypted computation on sensitive data and isolating data from apps in a fenced off enclave during processing. The concept of confidential computing is gaining popularity, especially in the cloud computing space where sensitive data is often stored and of course processed. However, there are some who view confidential computing as an unnecessary technology in a marketing ploy by cloud providers aimed at calming customers who are cloud phobic. Hello and welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE Insights powered by ETR. In this Breaking Analysis, we revisit the notion of confidential computing, and to do so, we'll invite two Google experts to the show, but before we get there, let's summarize briefly. There's not a ton of ETR data on the topic of confidential computing. I mean, it's a technology that's deeply embedded into silicon and computing architectures. But at the highest level, security remains the number one priority being addressed by IT decision makers in the coming year as shown here. And this data is pretty much across the board by industry, by region, by size of company. I mean we dug into it and the only slight deviation from the mean is in financial services. The second and third most cited priorities, cloud migration and analytics, are noticeably closer to cybersecurity in financial services than in other sectors, likely because financial services has always been hyper security conscious, but security is still a clear number one priority in that sector. The idea behind confidential computing is to better address threat models for data in execution. Protecting data at rest and data and transit have long been a focus of security approaches, but more recently, silicon manufacturers have introduced architectures that separate data and applications from the host system. Arm, Intel, AMD, Nvidia and other suppliers are all on board, as are the big cloud players. Now the argument against confidential computing is that it narrowly focuses on memory encryption and it doesn't solve the biggest problems in security. Multiple system images updates different services and the entire code flow aren't directly addressed by memory encryption, rather to truly attack these problems, many believe that OSs need to be re-engineered with the attacker and hacker in mind. There are so many variables and at the end of the day, critics say the emphasis on confidential computing made by cloud providers is overstated and largely hype. This tweet from security researcher Rodrigo Branco sums up the sentiment of many skeptics. He says, "Confidential computing is mostly a marketing campaign for memory encryption. It's not driving the industry towards the hard open problems. It is selling an illusion." Okay. Nonetheless, encrypting data in use and fencing off key components of the system isn't a bad thing, especially if it comes with the package essentially for free. There has been a lack of standardization and interoperability between different confidential computing approaches. But the confidential computing consortium was established in 2019 ostensibly to accelerate the market and influence standards. Notably, AWS is not part of the consortium, likely because the politics of the consortium were probably a conundrum for AWS because the base technology defined by the the consortium is seen as limiting by AWS. This is my guess, not AWS's words, and but I think joining the consortium would validate a definition which AWS isn't aligned with. And two, it's got a lead with this Annapurna acquisition. This was way ahead with Arm integration and so it probably doesn't feel the need to validate its competitors. Anyway, one of the premier members of the confidential computing consortium is Google, along with many high profile names including Arm, Intel, Meta, Red Hat, Microsoft, and others. And we're pleased to welcome two experts on confidential computing from Google to unpack the topic, Nelly Porter is head of product for GCP confidential computing and encryption, and Dr. Patricia Florissi is the technical director for the office of the CTO at Google Cloud. Welcome Nelly and Patricia, great to have you. >> Great to be here. >> Thank you so much for having us. >> You're very welcome. Nelly, why don't you start and then Patricia, you can weigh in. Just tell the audience a little bit about each of your roles at Google Cloud. >> So I'll start, I'm owning a lot of interesting activities in Google and again security or infrastructure securities that I usually own. And we are talking about encryption and when encryption and confidential computing is a part of portfolio in additional areas that I contribute together with my team to Google and our customers is secure software supply chain. Because you need to trust your software. Is it operate in your confidential environment to have end-to-end story about if you believe that your software and your environment doing what you expect, it's my role. >> Got it. Okay. Patricia? >> Well, I am a technical director in the office of the CTO, OCTO for short, in Google Cloud. And we are a global team. We include former CTOs like myself and senior technologists from large corporations, institutions and a lot of success, we're startups as well. And we have two main goals. First, we walk side by side with some of our largest, more strategic or most strategical customers and we help them solve complex engineering technical problems. And second, we are devise Google and Google Cloud engineering and product management and tech on there, on emerging trends and technologies to guide the trajectory of our business. We are unique group, I think, because we have created this collaborative culture with our customers. And within OCTO, I spend a lot of time collaborating with customers and the industry at large on technologies that can address privacy, security, and sovereignty of data in general. >> Excellent. Thank you for that both of you. Let's get into it. So Nelly, what is confidential computing? From Google's perspective, how do you define it? >> Confidential computing is a tool and it's still one of the tools in our toolbox. And confidential computing is a way how we would help our customers to complete this very interesting end-to-end lifecycle of the data. And when customers bring in the data to cloud and want to protect it as they ingest it to the cloud, they protect it at rest when they store data in the cloud. But what was missing for many, many years is ability for us to continue protecting data and workloads of our customers when they running them. And again, because data is not brought to cloud to have huge graveyard, we need to ensure that this data is actually indexed. Again, there is some insights driven and drawn from this data. You have to process this data and confidential computing here to help. Now we have end to end protection of our customer's data when they bring the workloads and data to cloud, thanks to confidential computing. >> Thank you for that. Okay, we're going to get into the architecture a bit, but before we do, Patricia, why do you think this topic of confidential computing is such an important technology? Can you explain, do you think it's transformative for customers and if so, why? >> Yeah, I would maybe like to use one thought, one way, one intuition behind why confidential commuting matters, because at the end of the day, it reduces more and more the customer's thresh boundaries and the attack surface. That's about reducing that periphery, the boundary in which the customer needs to mind about trust and safety. And in a way, is a natural progression that you're using encryption to secure and protect the data. In the same way that we are encrypting data in transit and at rest, now we are also encrypting data while in use. And among other beneficials, I would say one of the most transformative ones is that organizations will be able to collaborate with each other and retain the confidentiality of the data. And that is across industry, even though it's highly focused on, I wouldn't say highly focused, but very beneficial for highly regulated industries. It applies to all of industries. And if you look at financing for example, where bankers are trying to detect fraud, and specifically double finance where you are, a customer is actually trying to get a finance on an asset, let's say a boat or a house, and then it goes to another bank and gets another finance on that asset. Now bankers would be able to collaborate and detect fraud while preserving confidentiality and privacy of the data. >> Interesting. And I want to understand that a little bit more but I'm going to push you a little bit on this, Nelly, if I can because there's a narrative out there that says confidential computing is a marketing ploy, I talked about this upfront, by cloud providers that are just trying to placate people that are scared of the cloud. And I'm presuming you don't agree with that, but I'd like you to weigh in here. The argument is confidential computing is just memory encryption and it doesn't address many other problems. It is over hyped by cloud providers. What do you say to that line of thinking? >> I absolutely disagree, as you can imagine, with this statement, but the most importantly is we mixing multiple concepts, I guess. And exactly as Patricia said, we need to look at the end-to-end story, not again the mechanism how confidential computing trying to again, execute and protect a customer's data and why it's so critically important because what confidential computing was able to do, it's in addition to isolate our tenants in multi-tenant environments the cloud covering to offer additional stronger isolation. They called it cryptographic isolation. It's why customers will have more trust to customers and to other customers, the tenant that's running on the same host but also us because they don't need to worry about against threats and more malicious attempts to penetrate the environment. So what confidential computing is helping us to offer our customers, stronger isolation between tenants in this multi-tenant environment, but also incredibly important, stronger isolation of our customers, so tenants from us. We also writing code, we also software providers will also make mistakes or have some zero days. Sometimes again us introduced, sometimes introduced by our adversaries. But what I'm trying to say by creating this cryptographic layer of isolation between us and our tenants and amongst those tenants, we're really providing meaningful security to our customers and eliminate some of the worries that they have running on multi-tenant spaces or even collaborating to gather this very sensitive data knowing that this particular protection is available to them. >> Okay, thank you. Appreciate that. And I think malicious code is often a threat model missed in these narratives. Operator access, yeah, maybe I trust my clouds provider, but if I can fence off your access even better, I'll sleep better at night. Separating a code from the data, everybody's, Arm, Intel, AMD, Nvidia, others, they're all doing it. I wonder if, Nelly, if we could stay with you and bring up the slide on the architecture. What's architecturally different with confidential computing versus how operating systems and VMs have worked traditionally. We're showing a slide here with some VMs, maybe you could take us through that. >> Absolutely. And Dave, the whole idea for Google and now industry way of dealing with confidential computing is to ensure that three main property is actually preserved. Customers don't need to change the code. They can operate on those VMs exactly as they would with normal non-confidential VMs, but to give them this opportunity of lift and shift or no changing their apps and performing and having very, very, very low latency and scale as any cloud can, something that Google actually pioneer in confidential computing. I think we need to open and explain how this magic was actually done. And as I said, it's again the whole entire system have to change to be able to provide this magic. And I would start with we have this concept of root of trust and root of trust where we will ensure that this machine, when the whole entire post has integrity guarantee, means nobody changing my code on the most low level of system. And we introduce this in 2017 called Titan. It was our specific ASIC, specific, again, inch by inch system on every single motherboard that we have that ensures that your low level former, your actually system code, your kernel, the most powerful system is actually proper configured and not changed, not tampered. We do it for everybody, confidential computing included. But for confidential computing, what we have to change, we bring in AMD, or again, future silicon vendors and we have to trust their former, their way to deal with our confidential environments. And that's why we have obligation to validate integrity, not only our software and our former but also former and software of our vendors, silicon vendors. So we actually, when we booting this machine, as you can see, we validate that integrity of all of the system is in place. It means nobody touching, nobody changing, nobody modifying it. But then we have this concept of AMD secure processor, it's special ASICs, best specific things that generate a key for every single VM that our customers will run or every single node in Kubernetes or every single worker thread in our Hadoop or Spark capability. We offer all of that. And those keys are not available to us. It's the best keys ever in encryption space because when we are talking about encryption, the first question that I'm receiving all the time, where's the key, who will have access to the key? Because if you have access to the key then it doesn't matter if you encrypted or not. So, but the case in confidential computing provides so revolutionary technology, us cloud providers, who don't have access to the keys. They sitting in the hardware and they head to memory controller. And it means when hypervisors that also know about these wonderful things saying I need to get access to the memories that this particular VM trying to get access to, they do not decrypt the data, they don't have access to the key because those keys are random, ephemeral and per VM, but the most importantly, in hardware not exportable. And it means now you would be able to have this very interesting role that customers or cloud providers will not be able to get access to your memory. And what we do, again, as you can see our customers don't need to change their applications, their VMs are running exactly as it should run and what you're running in VM, you actually see your memory in clear, it's not encrypted, but God forbid is trying somebody to do it outside of my confidential box. No, no, no, no, no, they would not be able to do it. Now you'll see cyber and it's exactly what combination of these multiple hardware pieces and software pieces have to do. So OS is also modified. And OS is modified such way to provide integrity. It means even OS that you're running in your VM box is not modifiable and you, as customer, can verify. But the most interesting thing, I guess, how to ensure the super performance of this environment because you can imagine, Dave, that encrypting and it's additional performance, additional time, additional latency. So we were able to mitigate all of that by providing incredibly interesting capability in the OS itself. So our customers will get no changes needed, fantastic performance and scales as they would expect from cloud providers like Google. >> Okay, thank you. Excellent. Appreciate that explanation. So, again, the narrative on this as well, you've already given me guarantees as a cloud provider that you don't have access to my data, but this gives another level of assurance, key management as they say is key. Now humans aren't managing the keys, the machines are managing them. So Patricia, my question to you is, in addition to, let's go pre confidential computing days, what are the sort of new guarantees that these hardware-based technologies are going to provide to customers? >> So if I am a customer, I am saying I now have full guarantee of confidentiality and integrity of the data and of the code. So if you look at code and data confidentiality, the customer cares and they want to know whether their systems are protected from outside or unauthorized access, and that recovered with Nelly, that it is. Confidential computing actually ensures that the applications and data internals remain secret, right? The code is actually looking at the data, the only the memory is decrypting the data with a key that is ephemeral and per VM and generated on demand. Then you have the second point where you have code and data integrity, and now customers want to know whether their data was corrupted, tampered with or impacted by outside actors. And what confidential computing ensures is that application internals are not tampered with. So the application, the workload as we call it, that is processing the data, it's also, it has not been tampered and preserves integrity. I would also say that this is all verifiable. So you have attestation and these attestation actually generates a log trail and the log trail guarantees that, provides a proof that it was preserved. And I think that the offer's also a guarantee of what we call ceiling, this idea that the secrets have been preserved and not tampered with, confidentiality and integrity of code and data. >> Got it. Okay, thank you. Nelly, you mentioned, I think I heard you say that the applications, it's transparent, you don't have to change the application, it just comes for free essentially. And we showed some various parts of the stack before. I'm curious as to what's affected, but really more importantly, what is specifically Google's value add? How do partners participate in this, the ecosystem, or maybe said another way, how does Google ensure the compatibility of confidential computing with existing systems and applications? >> And a fantastic question by the way. And it's very difficult and definitely complicated world because to be able to provide these guarantees, actually a lot of work was done by community. Google is very much operate in open, so again, our operating system, we working with operating system repository OSs, OS vendors to ensure that all capabilities that we need is part of the kernels, are part of the releases and it's available for customers to understand and even explore if they have fun to explore a lot of code. We have also modified together with our silicon vendors a kernel, host kernel to support this capability and it means working this community to ensure that all of those patches are there. We also worked with every single silicon vendor as you've seen, and that's what I probably feel that Google contributed quite a bit in this whole, we moved our industry, our community, our vendors to understand the value of easy to use confidential computing or removing barriers. And now I don't know if you noticed, Intel is pulling the lead and also announcing their trusted domain extension, very similar architecture. And no surprise, it's, again, a lot of work done with our partners to, again, convince, work with them and make this capability available. The same with Arm this year, actually last year, Arm announced their future design for confidential computing. It's called Confidential Computing Architecture. And it's also influenced very heavily with similar ideas by Google and industry overall. So it's a lot of work in confidential computing consortiums that we are doing, for example, simply to mention, to ensure interop, as you mentioned, between different confidential environments of cloud providers. They want to ensure that they can attest to each other because when you're communicating with different environments, you need to trust them. And if it's running on different cloud providers, you need to ensure that you can trust your receiver when you are sharing your sensitive data workloads or secret with them. So we coming as a community and we have this attestation sig, the, again, the community based systems that we want to build and influence and work with Arm and every other cloud providers to ensure that we can interrupt and it means it doesn't matter where confidential workloads will be hosted, but they can exchange the data in secure, verifiable and controlled by customers way. And to do it, we need to continue what we are doing, working open, again, and contribute with our ideas and ideas of our partners to this role to become what we see confidential computing has to become, it has to become utility. It doesn't need to be so special, but it's what we want it to become. >> Let's talk about, thank you for that explanation. Let's talk about data sovereignty because when you think about data sharing, you think about data sharing across the ecosystem and different regions and then of course data sovereignty comes up. Typically public policy lags, the technology industry and sometimes is problematic. I know there's a lot of discussions about exceptions, but Patricia, we have a graphic on data sovereignty. I'm interested in how confidential computing ensures that data sovereignty and privacy edicts are adhered to, even if they're out of alignment maybe with the pace of technology. One of the frequent examples is when you delete data, can you actually prove that data is deleted with a hundred percent certainty? You got to prove that and a lot of other issues. So looking at this slide, maybe you could take us through your thinking on data sovereignty. >> Perfect. So for us, data sovereignty is only one of the three pillars of digital sovereignty. And I don't want to give the impression that confidential computing addresses it all. That's why we want to step back and say, hey, digital sovereignty includes data sovereignty where we are giving you full control and ownership of the location, encryption and access to your data. Operational sovereignty where the goal is to give our Google Cloud customers full visibility and control over the provider operations, right? So if there are any updates on hardware, software stack, any operations, there is full transparency, full visibility. And then the third pillar is around software sovereignty where the customer wants to ensure that they can run their workloads without dependency on the provider's software. So they have sometimes is often referred as survivability, that you can actually survive if you are untethered to the cloud and that you can use open source. Now let's take a deep dive on data sovereignty, which by the way is one of my favorite topics. And we typically focus on saying, hey, we need to care about data residency. We care where the data resides because where the data is at rest or in processing, it typically abides to the jurisdiction, the regulations of the jurisdiction where the data resides. And others say, hey, let's focus on data protection. We want to ensure the confidentiality and integrity and availability of the data, which confidential computing is at the heart of that data protection. But it is yet another element that people typically don't talk about when talking about data sovereignty, which is the element of user control. And here, Dave, is about what happens to the data when I give you access to my data. And this reminds me of security two decades ago, even a decade ago, where we started the security movement by putting firewall protections and login accesses. But once you were in, you were able to do everything you wanted with the data. An insider had access to all the infrastructure, the data and the code. And that's similar because with data sovereignty we care about whether it resides, where, who is operating on the data. But the moment that the data is being processed, I need to trust that the processing of the data will abide by user control, by the policies that I put in place of how my data is going to be used. And if you look at a lot of the regulation today and a lot of the initiatives around the International Data Space Association, IDSA, and Gaia-X, there is a movement of saying the two parties, the provider of the data and the receiver of the data are going to agree on a contract that describes what my data can be used for. The challenge is to ensure that once the data crosses boundaries, that the data will be used for the purposes that it was intended and specified in the contract. And if you actually bring together, and this is the exciting part, confidential computing together with policy enforcement, now the policy enforcement can guarantee that the data is only processed within the confines of a confidential computing environment, that the workload is cryptographically verified that there is the workload that was meant to process the data and that the data will be only used when abiding to the confidentiality and integrity safety of the confidential computing environment. And that's why we believe confidential computing is one necessary and essential technology that will allow us to ensure data sovereignty, especially when it comes to user control. >> Thank you for that. I mean it was a deep dive, I mean brief, but really detailed. So I appreciate that, especially the verification of the enforcement. Last question, I met you two because as part of my year end prediction post, you guys sent in some predictions and I wasn't able to get to them in the predictions post. So I'm thrilled that you were able to make the time to come on the program. How widespread do you think the adoption of confidential computing will be in 23 and what's the maturity curve look like, this decade in your opinion? Maybe each of you could give us a brief answer. >> So my prediction in five, seven years, as I started, it'll become utility. It'll become TLS as of, again, 10 years ago we couldn't believe that websites will have certificates and we will support encrypted traffic. Now we do and it's become ubiquity. It's exactly where confidential computing is getting and heading, I don't know we deserve yet. It'll take a few years of maturity for us, but we will be there. >> Thank you. And Patricia, what's your prediction? >> I will double that and say, hey, in the future, in the very near future, you will not be able to afford not having it. I believe as digital sovereignty becomes evermore top of mind with sovereign states and also for multi national organizations and for organizations that want to collaborate with each other, confidential computing will become the norm. It'll become the default, if I say, mode of operation. I like to compare that today is inconceivable. If we talk to the young technologists, it's inconceivable to think that at some point in history, and I happen to be alive that we had data at rest that was not encrypted, data in transit that was not encrypted, and I think that will be inconceivable at some point in the near future that to have unencrypted data while in use. >> And plus I think the beauty of the this industry is because there's so much competition, this essentially comes for free. I want to thank you both for spending some time on Breaking Analysis. There's so much more we could cover. I hope you'll come back to share the progress that you're making in this area and we can double click on some of these topics. Really appreciate your time. >> Anytime. >> Thank you so much. >> In summary, while confidential computing is being touted by the cloud players as a promising technology for enhancing data privacy and security, there are also those, as we said, who remain skeptical. The truth probably lies somewhere in between and it will depend on the specific implementation and the use case as to how effective confidential computing will be. Look, as with any new tech, it's important to carefully evaluate the potential benefits, the drawbacks, and make informed decisions based on the specific requirements in the situation and the constraints of each individual customer. But the bottom line is silicon manufacturers are working with cloud providers and other system companies to include confidential computing into their architectures. Competition, in our view, will moderate price hikes. And at the end of the day, this is under the covers technology that essentially will come for free. So we'll take it. I want to thank our guests today, Nelly and Patricia from Google, and thanks to Alex Myerson who's on production and manages the podcast. Ken Schiffman as well out of our Boston studio, Kristin Martin and Cheryl Knight help get the word out on social media and in our newsletters. And Rob Hof is our editor-in-chief over at siliconangle.com. Does some great editing for us, thank you all. Remember all these episodes are available as podcasts. Wherever you listen, just search Breaking Analysis podcast. I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com where you can get all the news. If you want to get in touch, you can email me at david.vellante@siliconangle.com or dm me @DVellante. And you can also comment on my LinkedIn post. Definitely you want to check out etr.ai for the best survey data in the enterprise tech business. I know we didn't hit on a lot today, but there's some amazing data and it's always being updated, so check that out. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE Insights, powered by ETR. Thanks for watching and we'll see you next time on Breaking Analysis. (upbeat music)

>> Welcome Nelly and Patricia, great to have you. >> Great to be here. >> Thank you so much for having us. >> You're very welcome. Nelly, why don't you start, and then Patricia you can weigh in. Just tell the audience a little bit about each of your roles at Google Cloud. >> So I'll start, I'm honing a lot of interesting activities in Google and again, security or infrastructure securities that I usually hone, and we're talking about encryption, Antware encryption, and confidential computing is a part of portfolio. In additional areas that I contribute to get with my team to Google and our customers is secure software supply chain. Because you need to trust your software. Is it operating your confidential environment to have end to end story about if you believe that your software and your environment doing what you expect, it's my role. >> Got it, okay. Patricia? >> Well I am a technical director in the office of the CTO, OCTO for short, in Google Cloud. And we are a global team. We include former CTOs like myself and senior technologies from large corporations, institutions, and a lot of success for startups as well. And we have two main goals. First, we work side by side with some of our largest, more strategic or most strategic customers and we help them solve complex engineering technical problems. And second, we are device Google and Google Cloud engineering and product management on emerging trends in technologies to guide the trajectory of our business. We are unique group, I think, because we have created this collaborative culture with our customers. And within OCTO I spend a lot of time collaborating with customers in the industry at large on technologies that can address privacy, security, and sovereignty of data in general. >> Excellent, thank you for that both of you. Let's get into it. So Nelly, what is confidential computing from Google's perspective? How do you define it? >> Confidential computing is a tool. And it's one of the tools in our toolbox. And confidential computing is a way how would help our customers to complete this very interesting end to end lifecycle of their data. And when customers bring in the data to Cloud and want to protect it, as they ingest it to the Cloud, they protect it address when they store data in the Cloud. But what was missing for many, many years is ability for us to continue protecting data and workloads of our customers when they running them. And again, because data is not brought to Cloud to have huge graveyard, we need to ensure that this data is actually indexed. Again there is some insights driven and drawn from this data. You have to process this data and confidential computing here to help. Now we have end to end protection of our customer's data when they bring the workloads and data to Cloud, thanks to confidential computing. >> Thank you for that. Okay, we're going to get into the architecture a bit but before we do Patricia, why do you think this topic of confidential computing is such an important technology? Can you explain, do you think it's transformative for customers and if so, why? >> Yeah, I would maybe like to use one thought, one way, one intuition behind why confidential matters. Because at the end of the day it reduces more and more the customers thrush boundaries and the attack surface, that's about reducing that periphery, the boundary, in which the customer needs to mind about trust and safety. And in a way is a natural progression that you're using encryption to secure and protect data in the same way that we are encrypting data in transit and at rest. Now we are also encrypting data while in use. And among other beneficial I would say one of the most transformative ones is that organizations will be able to collaborate with each other and retain the confidentiality of the data. And that is across industry. Even though it's highly focused on, I wouldn't say highly focused, but very beneficial for highly regulated industries. It applies to all of industries. And if you look at financing for example, where bankers are trying to detect fraud and specifically double finance where you are a customer is actually trying to get a finance on an asset, let's say a boat or a house and then it goes to another bank and gets another finance on that asset. Now bankers would be able to collaborate and detect fraud while preserving confidentiality and privacy of the of the data. >> Interesting, and I want to understand that a little bit more but I'm going to push you a little bit on this, Nelly, if I can, because there's a narrative out there that says confidential computing is a marketing ploy. I talked about this upfront, by Cloud providers that are just trying to placate people that are scared of the Cloud. And I'm presuming you don't agree with that but I'd like you to weigh in here. The argument is confidential computing is just memory encryption, it doesn't address many other problems, it is overhyped by Cloud providers. What do you say to that line of thinking? >> I absolutely disagree as you can imagine, it's a crazy statement. But the most importantly is we mixing multiple concepts I guess. And exactly as Patricia said, we need to look at the end-to-end story not again the mechanism of how confidential computing trying to again execute and protect customer's data, and why it's so critically important. Because what confidential computing was able to do it's in addition to isolate our tenants in multi-tenant environments the Cloud over. To offer additional stronger isolation, we called it cryptographic isolation. It's why customers will have more trust to customers and to other customers, the tenants that's running on the same host but also us, because they don't need to worry about against threats and more malicious attempts to penetrate the environment. So what confidential computing is helping us to offer our customers, stronger isolation between tenants in this multi-tenant environment but also incredibly important, stronger isolation of our customers. So tenants from us, we also writing code, we also software providers will also make mistakes or have some zero days sometimes again us introduced, sometimes introduced by our adversaries. But what I'm trying to say by creating this cryptographic layer of isolation between us and our tenants, and amongst those tenants, they're really providing meaningful security to our customers and eliminate some of the worries that they have running on multi-tenant spaces or even collaborating together this very sensitive data, knowing that this particular protection is available to them. >> Okay, thank you, appreciate that. And I, you know, I think malicious code is often a threat model missed in these narratives. You know, operator access, yeah, could maybe I trust my Clouds provider, but if I can fence off your access even better I'll sleep better at night. Separating a code from the data, everybody's arm Intel, AM, Invidia, others, they're all doing it. I wonder if Nell, if we could stay with you and bring up the slide on the architecture. What's architecturally different with confidential computing versus how operating systems and VMs have worked traditionally? We're showing a slide here with some VMs, maybe you could take us through that. >> Absolutely, and Dave, the whole idea for Google and industry way of dealing with confidential computing is to ensure as it's three main property is actually preserved. Customers don't need to change the code. They can operate in those VMs exactly as they would with normal non-confidential VMs. But to give them this opportunity of lift and shift or no changing their apps and performing and having very, very, very low latency and scale as any Cloud can, something that Google actually pioneered in confidential computing. I think we need to open and explain how this magic was actually done. And as I said, it's again the whole entire system have to change to be able to provide this magic. And I would start with we have this concept of root of trust and root of trust where we will ensure that this machine, the whole entire post has integrity guarantee, means nobody changing my code on the most low level of system. And we introduce this in 2017 code Titan. Those our specific ASIC specific, again inch by inch system on every single motherboard that we have, that ensures that your low level former, your actually system code, your kernel, the most powerful system, is actually proper configured and not changed, not tempered. We do it for everybody, confidential computing concluded. But for confidential computing what we have to change we bring in a MD again, future silicon vendors, and we have to trust their former, their way to deal with our confidential environments. And that's why we have obligation to validate integrity not only our software and our firmware but also firmware and software of our vendors, silicon vendors. So we actually, when we booting this machine as you can see, we validate that integrity of all of this system is in place. It means nobody touching, nobody changing, nobody modifying it. But then we have this concept of the secure processor. It's special Asics best, specific things that generate a key for every single VM that our customers will run or every single node in Kubernetes, or every single worker thread in our Spark capability. We offer all of that, and those keys are not available to us. It's the best keys ever in encryption space. Because when we are talking about encryption the first question that I'm receiving all the time, where's the key, who will have access to the key? Because if you have access to the key then it doesn't matter if you encrypt it enough. But the case in confidential computing quite so revolutionary technology, ask Cloud providers who don't have access to the keys. They're sitting in the hardware and they fed to memory controller. And it means when Hypervisors that also know about these wonderful things, saying I need to get access to the memories that this particular VM I'm trying to get access to. They do not encrypt the data, they don't have access to the key. Because those keys are random, ephemeral and VM, but the most importantly in hardware not exportable. And it means now you will be able to have this very interesting role that customers all Cloud providers, will not be able to get access to your memory. And what we do, again, as you can see our customers don't need to change their applications. Their VMs are running exactly as it should run. And what you're running in VM you actually see your memory in clear, it's not encrypted. But God forbid is trying somebody to do it outside of my confidential box. No, no, no, no, no, you will not be able to do it. Now you'll see cybernet. And it's exactly what combination of these multiple hardware pieces and software pieces have to do. So OS is also modified, and OS is modified such way to provide integrity. It means even OS that you're running in UVM bucks is not modifiable and you as customer can verify. But the most interesting thing I guess how to ensure the super performance of this environment because you can imagine, Dave, that's increasing it's additional performance, additional time, additional latency. So we're able to mitigate all of that by providing incredibly interesting capability in the OS itself. So our customers will get no changes needed, fantastic performance, and scales as they would expect from Cloud providers like Google. >> Okay, thank you. Excellent, appreciate that explanation. So you know again, the narrative on this is, well you know you've already given me guarantees as a Cloud provider that you don't have access to my data but this gives another level of assurance. Key management as they say is key. Now you're not, humans aren't managing the keys the machines are managing them. So Patricia, my question to you is in addition to, you know, let's go pre-confidential computing days what are the sort of new guarantees that these hardware-based technologies are going to provide to customers? >> So if I am a customer, I am saying I now have full guarantee of confidentiality and integrity of the data and of the code. So if you look at code and data confidentiality the customer cares then they want to know whether their systems are protected from outside or unauthorized access. And that we covered with Nelly that it is. Confidential computing actually ensures that the applications and data antennas remain secret, right? The code is actually looking at the data only the memory is decrypting the data with a key that is ephemeral, and per VM, and generated on demand. Then you have the second point where you have code and data integrity and now customers want to know whether their data was corrupted, tempered, with or impacted by outside actors. And what confidential computing insures is that application internals are not tampered with. So the application, the workload as we call it, that is processing the data it's also it has not been tempered and preserves integrity. I would also say that this is all verifiable. So you have attestation, and this attestation actually generates a log trail and the log trail guarantees that provides a proof that it was preserved. And I think that the offers also a guarantee of what we call ceiling, this idea that the secrets have been preserved and not tempered with. Confidentiality and integrity of code and data. >> Got it, okay, thank you. You know, Nelly, you mentioned, I think I heard you say that the applications, it's transparent,you don't have to change the application it just comes for free essentially. And I'm, we showed some various parts of the stack before. I'm curious as to what's affected but really more importantly what is specifically Google's value add? You know, how do partners, you know, participate in this? The ecosystem or maybe said another way how does Google ensure the compatibility of confidential computing with existing systems and applications? >> And a fantastic question by the way. And it's very difficult and definitely complicated world because to be able to provide these guarantees actually a lot of works was done by community. Google is very much operate and open. So again, our operating system we working in this operating system repository OS vendors to ensure that all capabilities that we need is part of their kernels, are part of their releases, and it's available for customers to understand and even explore if they have fun to explore a lot of code. We have also modified together with our silicon vendors, kernel, host kernel, to support this capability and it means working this community to ensure that all of those patches are there. We also worked with every single silicon vendor as you've seen, and that's what I probably feel that Google contributed quite a bit in this role. We moved our industry, our community, our vendors to understand the value of easy to use confidential computing or removing barriers. And now I don't know if you noticed Intel is pulling the lead and also announcing the trusted domain extension very similar architecture and no surprise, it's again a lot of work done with our partners to again, convince, work with them, and make this capability available. The same with ARM this year, actually last year, ARM unknowns are future design for confidential computing. It's called confidential computing architecture. And it's also influenced very heavily with similar ideas by Google and industry overall. So it's a lot of work in confidential computing consortiums that we are doing. For example, simply to mention to ensure interop, as you mentioned, between different confidential environments of Cloud providers. We want to ensure that they can attest to each other. Because when you're communicating with different environments, you need to trust them. And if it's running on different Cloud providers you need to ensure that you can trust your receiver when you are sharing your sensitive data workloads or secret with them. So we coming as a community and we have this at the station, the community based systems that we want to build and influence and work with ARM and every other Cloud providers to ensure that they can interrupt. And it means it doesn't matter where confidential workloads will be hosted but they can exchange the data in secure, verifiable, and controlled by customers way. And to do it, we need to continue what we are doing. Working open again and contribute with our ideas and ideas of our partners to this role to become what we see confidential computing has to become, it has to become utility. It doesn't need to be so special but it's what what we've wanted to become. >> Let's talk about, thank you for that explanation. Let talk about data sovereignty, because when you think about data sharing you think about data sharing across, you know, the ecosystem and different regions and then of course data sovereignty comes up. Typically public policy lags, you know, the technology industry and sometimes is problematic. I know, you know, there's a lot of discussions about exceptions, but Patricia, we have a graphic on data sovereignty. I'm interested in how confidential computing ensures that data sovereignty and privacy edicts are adhered to even if they're out of alignment maybe with the pace of technology. One of the frequent examples is when you you know, when you delete data, can you actually prove the data is deleted with a hundred percent certainty? You got to prove that and a lot of other issues. So looking at this slide, maybe you could take us through your thinking on data sovereignty. >> Perfect, so for us, data sovereignty is only one of the three pillars of digital sovereignty. And I don't want to give the impression that confidential computing addresses at all. That's why we want to step back and say, hey, digital sovereignty includes data sovereignty where we are giving you full control and ownership of the location, encryption, and access to your data. Operational sovereignty where the goal is to give our Google Cloud customers full visibility and control over the provider operations, right? So if there are any updates on hardware, software, stack, any operations, that is full transparency, full visibility. And then the third pillar is around software sovereignty where the customer wants to ensure that they can run their workloads without dependency on the provider's software. So they have sometimes is often referred as survivability that you can actually survive if you are untethered to the Cloud and that you can use open source. Now let's take a deep dive on data sovereignty, which by the way is one of my favorite topics. And we typically focus on saying, hey, we need to care about data residency. We care where the data resides because where the data is at rest or in processing it typically abides to the jurisdiction, the regulations of the jurisdiction where the data resides. And others say, hey, let's focus on data protection. We want to ensure the confidentiality and integrity and availability of the data which confidential computing is at the heart of that data protection. But it is yet another element that people typically don't talk about when talking about data sovereignty, which is the element of user control. And here Dave, is about what happens to the data when I give you access to my data. And this reminds me of security two decades ago, even a decade ago, where we started the security movement by putting firewall protections and login accesses. But once you were in, you were able to do everything you wanted with the data, an insider had access to all the infrastructure, the data, and the code. And that's similar because with data sovereignty we care about whether it resides, who is operating on the data. But the moment that the data is being processed, I need to trust that the processing of the data will abide by user control, by the policies that I put in place of how my data is going to be used. And if you look at a lot of the regulation today and a lot of the initiatives around the International Data Space Association, IDSA, and Gaia X, there is a movement of saying the two parties, the provider of the data and the receiver of the data going to agree on a contract that describes what my data can be used for. The challenge is to ensure that once the data crosses boundaries, that the data will be used for the purposes that it was intended and specified in the contract. And if you actually bring together, and this is the exciting part, confidential computing together with policy enforcement. Now the policy enforcement can guarantee that the data is only processed within the confines of a confidential computing environment. That the workload is cryptographically verified that there is the workload that was meant to process the data and that the data will be only used when abiding to the confidentiality and integrity, safety of the confidential computing environment. And that's why we believe confidential computing is one, necessary and essential technology that will allow us to ensure data sovereignty especially when it comes to user control. >> Thank you for that. I mean it was a deep dive, I mean brief, but really detailed, so I appreciate that, especially the verification of the enforcement. Last question, I met you two because as part of my year end prediction post you guys sent in some predictions, and I wasn't able to get to them in the predictions post. So I'm thrilled that you were able to make the time to come on the program. How widespread do you think the adoption of confidential computing will be in '23 and what's the maturity curve look like, you know, this decade in, in your opinion? Maybe each of you could give us a brief answer. >> So my prediction in five, seven years as I started, it'll become utility. It'll become TLS. As of, again, 10 years ago we couldn't believe that websites will have certificates and we will support encrypted traffic. Now we do, and it's become ubiquity. It's exactly where our confidential computing is heading and heading, I don't know if we are there yet yet. It'll take a few years of maturity for us, but we'll do that. >> Thank you, and Patricia, what's your prediction? >> I would double that and say, hey, in the future, in the very near future you will not be able to afford not having it. I believe as digital sovereignty becomes ever more top of mind with sovereign states and also for multinational organizations and for organizations that want to collaborate with each other, confidential computing will become the norm. It'll become the default, If I say mode of operation, I like to compare that, today is inconceivable if we talk to the young technologists. It's inconceivable to think that at some point in history and I happen to be alive that we had data at address that was not encrypted. Data in transit, that was not encrypted. And I think that we will be inconceivable at some point in the near future that to have unencrypted data while we use. >> You know, and plus, I think the beauty of the this industry is because there's so much competition this essentially comes for free. I want to thank you both for spending some time on Breaking Analysis. There's so much more we could cover. I hope you'll come back to share the progress that you're making in this area and we can double click on some of these topics. Really appreciate your time. >> Anytime. >> Thank you so much.

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> Confidential computing is a technology that aims to enhance data privacy and security, by providing encrypted computation on sensitive data and isolating data, and apps that are fenced off enclave during processing. The concept of, I got to start over. I fucked that up, I'm sorry. That's not right, what I said was not right. On Dave in five, four, three. Confidential computing is a technology that aims to enhance data privacy and security by providing encrypted computation on sensitive data, isolating data from apps and a fenced off enclave during processing. The concept of confidential computing is gaining popularity, especially in the cloud computing space, where sensitive data is often stored and of course processed. However, there are some who view confidential computing as an unnecessary technology in a marketing ploy by cloud providers aimed at calming customers who are cloud phobic. Hello and welcome to this week's Wikibon Cube Insights powered by ETR. In this Breaking Analysis, we revisit the notion of confidential computing, and to do so, we'll invite two Google experts to the show. But before we get there, let's summarize briefly. There's not a ton of ETR data on the topic of confidential computing, I mean, it's a technology that's deeply embedded into silicon and computing architectures. But at the highest level, security remains the number one priority being addressed by IT decision makers in the coming year as shown here. And this data is pretty much across the board by industry, by region, by size of company. I mean we dug into it and the only slight deviation from the mean is in financial services. The second and third most cited priorities, cloud migration and analytics are noticeably closer to cybersecurity in financial services than in other sectors, likely because financial services has always been hyper security conscious, but security is still a clear number one priority in that sector. The idea behind confidential computing is to better address threat models for data in execution. Protecting data at rest and data in transit have long been a focus of security approaches, but more recently, silicon manufacturers have introduced architectures that separate data and applications from the host system, ARM, Intel, AMD, Nvidia and other suppliers are all on board, as are the big cloud players. Now, the argument against confidential computing is that it narrowly focuses on memory encryption and it doesn't solve the biggest problems in security. Multiple system images, updates, different services and the entire code flow aren't directly addressed by memory encryption. Rather to truly attack these problems, many believe that OSs need to be re-engineered with the attacker and hacker in mind. There are so many variables and at the end of the day, critics say the emphasis on confidential computing made by cloud providers is overstated and largely hype. This tweet from security researcher Rodrigo Bronco, sums up the sentiment of many skeptics. He says, "Confidential computing is mostly a marketing campaign from memory encryption. It's not driving the industry towards the hard open problems. It is selling an illusion." Okay. Nonetheless, encrypting data in use and fencing off key components of the system isn't a bad thing, especially if it comes with the package essentially for free. There has been a lack of standardization and interoperability between different confidential computing approaches. But the confidential computing consortium was established in 2019 ostensibly to accelerate the market and influence standards. Notably, AWS is not part of the consortium, likely because the politics of the consortium were probably a conundrum for AWS because the base technology defined by the consortium is seen as limiting by AWS. This is my guess, not AWS' words. But I think joining the consortium would validate a definition which AWS isn't aligned with. And two, it's got to lead with this Annapurna acquisition. It was way ahead with ARM integration, and so it's probably doesn't feel the need to validate its competitors. Anyway, one of the premier members of the confidential computing consortium is Google, along with many high profile names, including Aem, Intel, Meta, Red Hat, Microsoft, and others. And we're pleased to welcome two experts on confidential computing from Google to unpack the topic. Nelly Porter is Head of Product for GCP Confidential Computing and Encryption and Dr. Patricia Florissi is the Technical Director for the Office of the CTO at Google Cloud. Welcome Nelly and Patricia, great to have you. >> Great to be here. >> Thank you so much for having us. >> You're very welcome. Nelly, why don't you start and then Patricia, you can weigh in. Just tell the audience a little bit about each of your roles at Google Cloud. >> So I'll start, I'm owning a lot of interesting activities in Google and again, security or infrastructure securities that I usually own. And we are talking about encryption, end-to-end encryption, and confidential computing is a part of portfolio. Additional areas that I contribute to get with my team to Google and our customers is secure software supply chain because you need to trust your software. Is it operate in your confidential environment to have end-to-end security, about if you believe that your software and your environment doing what you expect, it's my role. >> Got it. Okay, Patricia? >> Well, I am a Technical Director in the Office of the CTO, OCTO for short in Google Cloud. And we are a global team, we include former CTOs like myself and senior technologies from large corporations, institutions and a lot of success for startups as well. And we have two main goals, first, we walk side by side with some of our largest, more strategic or most strategical customers and we help them solve complex engineering technical problems. And second, we advice Google and Google Cloud Engineering, product management on emerging trends and technologies to guide the trajectory of our business. We are unique group, I think, because we have created this collaborative culture with our customers. And within OCTO I spend a lot of time collaborating with customers in the industry at large on technologies that can address privacy, security, and sovereignty of data in general. >> Excellent. Thank you for that both of you. Let's get into it. So Nelly, what is confidential computing from Google's perspective? How do you define it? >> Confidential computing is a tool and one of the tools in our toolbox. And confidential computing is a way how we would help our customers to complete this very interesting end-to-end lifecycle of the data. And when customers bring in the data to cloud and want to protect it as they ingest it to the cloud, they protect it at rest when they store data in the cloud. But what was missing for many, many years is ability for us to continue protecting data and workloads of our customers when they run them. And again, because data is not brought to cloud to have huge graveyard, we need to ensure that this data is actually indexed. Again, there is some insights driven and drawn from this data. You have to process this data and confidential computing here to help. Now we have end-to-end protection of our customer's data when they bring the workloads and data to cloud thanks to confidential computing. >> Thank you for that. Okay, we're going to get into the architecture a bit, but before we do Patricia, why do you think this topic of confidential computing is such an important technology? Can you explain? Do you think it's transformative for customers and if so, why? >> Yeah, I would maybe like to use one thought, one way, one intuition behind why confidential computing matters because at the end of the day, it reduces more and more the customer's thrush boundaries and the attack surface. That's about reducing that periphery, the boundary in which the customer needs to mind about trust and safety. And in a way is a natural progression that you're using encryption to secure and protect data in the same way that we are encrypting data in transit and at rest. Now, we are also encrypting data while in the use. And among other beneficials, I would say one of the most transformative ones is that organizations will be able to collaborate with each other and retain the confidentiality of the data. And that is across industry, even though it's highly focused on, I wouldn't say highly focused but very beneficial for highly regulated industries, it applies to all of industries. And if you look at financing for example, where bankers are trying to detect fraud and specifically double finance where a customer is actually trying to get a finance on an asset, let's say a boat or a house, and then it goes to another bank and gets another finance on that asset. Now bankers would be able to collaborate and detect fraud while preserving confidentiality and privacy of the data. >> Interesting and I want to understand that a little bit more but I got to push you a little bit on this, Nellie if I can, because there's a narrative out there that says confidential computing is a marketing ploy I talked about this up front, by cloud providers that are just trying to placate people that are scared of the cloud. And I'm presuming you don't agree with that, but I'd like you to weigh in here. The argument is confidential computing is just memory encryption, it doesn't address many other problems. It is over hyped by cloud providers. What do you say to that line of thinking? >> I absolutely disagree as you can imagine Dave, with this statement. But the most importantly is we mixing a multiple concepts I guess, and exactly as Patricia said, we need to look at the end-to-end story, not again, is a mechanism. How confidential computing trying to execute and protect customer's data and why it's so critically important. Because what confidential computing was able to do, it's in addition to isolate our tenants in multi-tenant environments the cloud offering to offer additional stronger isolation, they called it cryptographic isolation. It's why customers will have more trust to customers and to other customers, the tenants running on the same host but also us because they don't need to worry about against rats and more malicious attempts to penetrate the environment. So what confidential computing is helping us to offer our customers stronger isolation between tenants in this multi-tenant environment, but also incredibly important, stronger isolation of our customers to tenants from us. We also writing code, we also software providers, we also make mistakes or have some zero days. Sometimes again us introduce, sometimes introduced by our adversaries. But what I'm trying to say by creating this cryptographic layer of isolation between us and our tenants and among those tenants, we really providing meaningful security to our customers and eliminate some of the worries that they have running on multi-tenant spaces or even collaborating together with very sensitive data knowing that this particular protection is available to them. >> Okay, thank you. Appreciate that. And I think malicious code is often a threat model missed in these narratives. You know, operator access. Yeah, maybe I trust my cloud's provider, but if I can fence off your access even better, I'll sleep better at night separating a code from the data. Everybody's ARM, Intel, AMD, Nvidia and others, they're all doing it. I wonder if Nell, if we could stay with you and bring up the slide on the architecture. What's architecturally different with confidential computing versus how operating systems and VMs have worked traditionally? We're showing a slide here with some VMs, maybe you could take us through that. >> Absolutely, and Dave, the whole idea for Google and now industry way of dealing with confidential computing is to ensure that three main property is actually preserved. Customers don't need to change the code. They can operate in those VMs exactly as they would with normal non-confidential VMs. But to give them this opportunity of lift and shift though, no changing the apps and performing and having very, very, very low latency and scale as any cloud can, some things that Google actually pioneer in confidential computing. I think we need to open and explain how this magic was actually done, and as I said, it's again the whole entire system have to change to be able to provide this magic. And I would start with we have this concept of root of trust and root of trust where we will ensure that this machine within the whole entire host has integrity guarantee, means nobody changing my code on the most low level of system, and we introduce this in 2017 called Titan. So our specific ASIC, specific inch by inch system on every single motherboard that we have that ensures that your low level former, your actually system code, your kernel, the most powerful system is actually proper configured and not changed, not tempered. We do it for everybody, confidential computing included, but for confidential computing is what we have to change, we bring in AMD or future silicon vendors and we have to trust their former, their way to deal with our confidential environments. And that's why we have obligation to validate intelligent not only our software and our former but also former and software of our vendors, silicon vendors. So we actually, when we booting this machine as you can see, we validate that integrity of all of this system is in place. It means nobody touching, nobody changing, nobody modifying it. But then we have this concept of AMD Secure Processor, it's special ASIC best specific things that generate a key for every single VM that our customers will run or every single node in Kubernetes or every single worker thread in our Hadoop spark capability. We offer all of that and those keys are not available to us. It's the best case ever in encryption space because when we are talking about encryption, the first question that I'm receiving all the time, "Where's the key? Who will have access to the key?" because if you have access to the key then it doesn't matter if you encrypted or not. So, but the case in confidential computing why it's so revolutionary technology, us cloud providers who don't have access to the keys, they're sitting in the hardware and they fed to memory controller. And it means when hypervisors that also know about this wonderful things saying I need to get access to the memories, that this particular VM I'm trying to get access to. They do not decrypt the data, they don't have access to the key because those keys are random, ephemeral and per VM, but most importantly in hardware not exportable. And it means now you will be able to have this very interesting world that customers or cloud providers will not be able to get access to your memory. And what we do, again as you can see, our customers don't need to change their applications. Their VMs are running exactly as it should run. And what you've running in VM, you actually see your memory clear, it's not encrypted. But God forbid is trying somebody to do it outside of my confidential box, no, no, no, no, no, you will now be able to do it. Now, you'll see cyber test and it's exactly what combination of these multiple hardware pieces and software pieces have to do. So OS is also modified and OS is modified such way to provide integrity. It means even OS that you're running in your VM box is not modifiable and you as customer can verify. But the most interesting thing I guess how to ensure the super performance of this environment because you can imagine Dave, that's increasing and it's additional performance, additional time, additional latency. So we're able to mitigate all of that by providing incredibly interesting capability in the OS itself. So our customers will get no changes needed, fantastic performance and scales as they would expect from cloud providers like Google. >> Okay, thank you. Excellent, appreciate that explanation. So you know again, the narrative on this is, well, you've already given me guarantees as a cloud provider that you don't have access to my data, but this gives another level of assurance, key management as they say is key. Now humans aren't managing the keys, the machines are managing them. So Patricia, my question to you is in addition to, let's go pre-confidential computing days, what are the sort of new guarantees that these hardware based technologies are going to provide to customers? >> So if I am a customer, I am saying I now have full guarantee of confidentiality and integrity of the data and of the code. So if you look at code and data confidentiality, the customer cares and they want to know whether their systems are protected from outside or unauthorized access, and that we covered with Nelly that it is. Confidential computing actually ensures that the applications and data antennas remain secret. The code is actually looking at the data, only the memory is decrypting the data with a key that is ephemeral, and per VM, and generated on demand. Then you have the second point where you have code and data integrity and now customers want to know whether their data was corrupted, tempered with or impacted by outside actors. And what confidential computing ensures is that application internals are not tempered with. So the application, the workload as we call it, that is processing the data is also has not been tempered and preserves integrity. I would also say that this is all verifiable, so you have attestation and this attestation actually generates a log trail and the log trail guarantees that provides a proof that it was preserved. And I think that the offers also a guarantee of what we call sealing, this idea that the secrets have been preserved and not tempered with, confidentiality and integrity of code and data. >> Got it. Okay, thank you. Nelly, you mentioned, I think I heard you say that the applications is transparent, you don't have to change the application, it just comes for free essentially. And we showed some various parts of the stack before, I'm curious as to what's affected, but really more importantly, what is specifically Google's value add? How do partners participate in this, the ecosystem or maybe said another way, how does Google ensure the compatibility of confidential computing with existing systems and applications? >> And a fantastic question by the way, and it's very difficult and definitely complicated world because to be able to provide these guarantees, actually a lot of work was done by community. Google is very much operate and open. So again our operating system, we working this operating system repository OS is OS vendors to ensure that all capabilities that we need is part of the kernels are part of the releases and it's available for customers to understand and even explore if they have fun to explore a lot of code. We have also modified together with our silicon vendors kernel, host kernel to support this capability and it means working this community to ensure that all of those pages are there. We also worked with every single silicon vendor as you've seen, and it's what I probably feel that Google contributed quite a bit in this world. We moved our industry, our community, our vendors to understand the value of easy to use confidential computing or removing barriers. And now I don't know if you noticed Intel is following the lead and also announcing a trusted domain extension, very similar architecture and no surprise, it's a lot of work done with our partners to convince work with them and make this capability available. The same with ARM this year, actually last year, ARM announced future design for confidential computing, it's called confidential computing architecture. And it's also influenced very heavily with similar ideas by Google and industry overall. So it's a lot of work in confidential computing consortiums that we are doing, for example, simply to mention, to ensure interop as you mentioned, between different confidential environments of cloud providers. They want to ensure that they can attest to each other because when you're communicating with different environments, you need to trust them. And if it's running on different cloud providers, you need to ensure that you can trust your receiver when you sharing your sensitive data workloads or secret with them. So we coming as a community and we have this at Station Sig, the community-based systems that we want to build, and influence, and work with ARM and every other cloud providers to ensure that they can interop. And it means it doesn't matter where confidential workloads will be hosted, but they can exchange the data in secure, verifiable and controlled by customers really. And to do it, we need to continue what we are doing, working open and contribute with our ideas and ideas of our partners to this role to become what we see confidential computing has to become, it has to become utility. It doesn't need to be so special, but it's what what we've wanted to become. >> Let's talk about, thank you for that explanation. Let's talk about data sovereignty because when you think about data sharing, you think about data sharing across the ecosystem in different regions and then of course data sovereignty comes up, typically public policy, lags, the technology industry and sometimes it's problematic. I know there's a lot of discussions about exceptions but Patricia, we have a graphic on data sovereignty. I'm interested in how confidential computing ensures that data sovereignty and privacy edicts are adhered to, even if they're out of alignment maybe with the pace of technology. One of the frequent examples is when you delete data, can you actually prove the data is deleted with a hundred percent certainty, you got to prove that and a lot of other issues. So looking at this slide, maybe you could take us through your thinking on data sovereignty. >> Perfect. So for us, data sovereignty is only one of the three pillars of digital sovereignty. And I don't want to give the impression that confidential computing addresses it at all, that's why we want to step back and say, hey, digital sovereignty includes data sovereignty where we are giving you full control and ownership of the location, encryption and access to your data. Operational sovereignty where the goal is to give our Google Cloud customers full visibility and control over the provider operations, right? So if there are any updates on hardware, software stack, any operations, there is full transparency, full visibility. And then the third pillar is around software sovereignty, where the customer wants to ensure that they can run their workloads without dependency on the provider's software. So they have sometimes is often referred as survivability that you can actually survive if you are untethered to the cloud and that you can use open source. Now, let's take a deep dive on data sovereignty, which by the way is one of my favorite topics. And we typically focus on saying, hey, we need to care about data residency. We care where the data resides because where the data is at rest or in processing need to typically abides to the jurisdiction, the regulations of the jurisdiction where the data resides. And others say, hey, let's focus on data protection, we want to ensure the confidentiality, and integrity, and availability of the data, which confidential computing is at the heart of that data protection. But it is yet another element that people typically don't talk about when talking about data sovereignty, which is the element of user control. And here Dave, is about what happens to the data when I give you access to my data, and this reminds me of security two decades ago, even a decade ago, where we started the security movement by putting firewall protections and logging accesses. But once you were in, you were able to do everything you wanted with the data. An insider had access to all the infrastructure, the data, and the code. And that's similar because with data sovereignty, we care about whether it resides, who is operating on the data, but the moment that the data is being processed, I need to trust that the processing of the data we abide by user's control, by the policies that I put in place of how my data is going to be used. And if you look at a lot of the regulation today and a lot of the initiatives around the International Data Space Association, IDSA and Gaia-X, there is a movement of saying the two parties, the provider of the data and the receiver of the data going to agree on a contract that describes what my data can be used for. The challenge is to ensure that once the data crosses boundaries, that the data will be used for the purposes that it was intended and specified in the contract. And if you actually bring together, and this is the exciting part, confidential computing together with policy enforcement. Now, the policy enforcement can guarantee that the data is only processed within the confines of a confidential computing environment, that the workload is in cryptographically verified that there is the workload that was meant to process the data and that the data will be only used when abiding to the confidentiality and integrity safety of the confidential computing environment. And that's why we believe confidential computing is one necessary and essential technology that will allow us to ensure data sovereignty, especially when it comes to user's control. >> Thank you for that. I mean it was a deep dive, I mean brief, but really detailed. So I appreciate that, especially the verification of the enforcement. Last question, I met you two because as part of my year-end prediction post, you guys sent in some predictions and I wasn't able to get to them in the predictions post, so I'm thrilled that you were able to make the time to come on the program. How widespread do you think the adoption of confidential computing will be in '23 and what's the maturity curve look like this decade in your opinion? Maybe each of you could give us a brief answer. >> So my prediction in five, seven years as I started, it will become utility, it will become TLS. As of freakin' 10 years ago, we couldn't believe that websites will have certificates and we will support encrypted traffic. Now we do, and it's become ubiquity. It's exactly where our confidential computing is heeding and heading, I don't know we deserve yet. It'll take a few years of maturity for us, but we'll do that. >> Thank you. And Patricia, what's your prediction? >> I would double that and say, hey, in the very near future, you will not be able to afford not having it. I believe as digital sovereignty becomes ever more top of mind with sovereign states and also for multinational organizations, and for organizations that want to collaborate with each other, confidential computing will become the norm, it will become the default, if I say mode of operation. I like to compare that today is inconceivable if we talk to the young technologists, it's inconceivable to think that at some point in history and I happen to be alive, that we had data at rest that was non-encrypted, data in transit that was not encrypted. And I think that we'll be inconceivable at some point in the near future that to have unencrypted data while we use. >> You know, and plus I think the beauty of the this industry is because there's so much competition, this essentially comes for free. I want to thank you both for spending some time on Breaking Analysis, there's so much more we could cover. I hope you'll come back to share the progress that you're making in this area and we can double click on some of these topics. Really appreciate your time. >> Anytime. >> Thank you so much, yeah. >> In summary, while confidential computing is being touted by the cloud players as a promising technology for enhancing data privacy and security, there are also those as we said, who remain skeptical. The truth probably lies somewhere in between and it will depend on the specific implementation and the use case as to how effective confidential computing will be. Look as with any new tech, it's important to carefully evaluate the potential benefits, the drawbacks, and make informed decisions based on the specific requirements in the situation and the constraints of each individual customer. But the bottom line is silicon manufacturers are working with cloud providers and other system companies to include confidential computing into their architectures. Competition in our view will moderate price hikes and at the end of the day, this is under-the-covers technology that essentially will come for free, so we'll take it. I want to thank our guests today, Nelly and Patricia from Google. And thanks to Alex Myerson who's on production and manages the podcast. Ken Schiffman as well out of our Boston studio. Kristin Martin and Cheryl Knight help get the word out on social media and in our newsletters, and Rob Hoof is our editor-in-chief over at siliconangle.com, does some great editing for us. Thank you all. Remember all these episodes are available as podcasts. Wherever you listen, just search Breaking Analysis podcast. I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com where you can get all the news. If you want to get in touch, you can email me at david.vellante@siliconangle.com or DM me at D Vellante, and you can also comment on my LinkedIn post. Definitely you want to check out etr.ai for the best survey data in the enterprise tech business. I know we didn't hit on a lot today, but there's some amazing data and it's always being updated, so check that out. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE Insights powered by ETR. Thanks for watching and we'll see you next time on Breaking Analysis. (subtle music)

(upbeat music) >> Hello, everyone, from Palo Alto, Lisa Martin here. This is The Cube's coverage of CloudNativeSecurityCon, the inaugural event. I'm here with John Furrier in studio. In Boston, Dave Vellante joins us, and our guest, Liz Rice, one of our alumni, is joining us from Seattle. Great to have everyone here. Liz is the Chief Open Source officer at Isovalent. She's also the Emeritus Chair Technical Oversight Committee at CNCF, and a co-chair of this new event. Everyone, welcome Liz. Great to have you back on theCUBE. Thanks so much for joining us today. >> Thanks so much for having me, pleasure. >> So CloudNativeSecurityCon. This is the inaugural event, Liz, this used to be part of KubeCon, it's now its own event in its first year. Talk to us about the importance of having it as its own event from a security perspective, what's going on? Give us your opinions there. >> Yeah, I think security was becoming so- at such an important part of the conversation at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon, and the TAG security, who were organizing the co-located Cloud Native Security Day which then turned into a two day event. They were doing this amazing job, and there was so much content and so much activity and so much interest that it made sense to say "Actually this could stand alone as a dedicated event and really dedicate, you know, all the time and resources of running a full conference, just thinking about cloud native security." And I think that's proven to be true. There's plenty of really interesting talks that we're going to see. Things like a capture the flag. There's all sorts of really good things going on this week. >> Liz, great to see you, and Dave, great to see you in Boston Lisa, great intro. Liz, you've been a CUBE alumni. You've been a great contributor to our program, and being part of our team, kind of extracting that signal from the CNCF cloud native world KubeCon. This event really kind of to me is a watershed moment, because it highlights not only security as a standalone discussion event, but it's also synergistic with KubeCon. And, as co-chair, take us through the thought process on the sessions, the experts, it's got a practitioner vibe there. So we heard from Priyanka early on, bottoms up, developer first. You know KubeCon's shift left was big momentum. This seems to be a breakout of very focused security. Can you share the rationale and the thoughts behind how this is emerging, and how you see this developing? I know it's kind of a small event, kind of testing the waters it seems, but this is really a directional shift. Can you share your thoughts? >> Yeah I'm just, there's just so many different angles that you can consider security. You know, we are seeing a lot of conversations about supply chain security, but there's also runtime security. I'm really excited about eBPF tooling. There's also this opportunity to talk about how do we educate people about security, and how do security practitioners get involved in cloud native, and how do cloud native folks learn about the security concepts that they need to keep their deployments secure. So there's lots of different groups of people who I think maybe at a KubeCon, KubeCon is so wide, it's such a diverse range of topics. If you really just want to focus in, drill down on what do I need to do to run Kubernetes and cloud native applications securely, let's have a really focused event, and just drill down into all the different aspects of that. And I think that's great. It brings the right people together, the practitioners, the experts, the vendors to, you know, everyone can be here, and we can find each other at a smaller event. We are not spread out amongst the thousands of people that would attend a KubeCon. >> It's interesting, Dave, you know, when we were talking, you know, we're going to bring you in real quick, because AWS, which I think is the bellweather for, you know, cloud computing, has now two main shows, AWS re:Invent and re:Inforce. Security, again, broken out there. you see the classic security events, RSA, Black Hat, you know, those are the, kind of, the industry kind of mainstream security, very wide. But you're starting to see the cloud native developer first with both security and cloud native, kind of, really growing so fast. This is a major trend for a lot of the ecosystem >> You know, and you hear, when you mention those other conferences, John you hear a lot about, you know, shift left. There's a little bit of lip service there, and you, we heard today way more than lip service. I mean deep practitioner level conversations, and of course the runtime as well. Liz, you spent a lot of time obviously in your keynote on eBPF, and I wonder if you could share with the audience, you know, why you're so excited about that. What makes it a more effective tool compared to other traditional methods? I mean, it sounds like it simplifies things. You talked about instrumenting nodes versus workloads. Can you explain that a little bit more detail? >> Yeah, so with eBPF programs, we can load programs dynamically into the kernel, and we can attach them to all kinds of different events that could be happening anywhere on that virtual machine. And if you have the right knowledge about where to hook into, you can observe network events, you can observe file access events, you can observe pretty much anything that's interesting from a security perspective. And because eBPF programs are living in the kernel, there's only one kernel shared amongst all of the applications that are running on that particular machine. So you don't- you no longer have to instrument each individual application, or each individual pod. There's no more need to inject sidecars. We can apply eBPF based tooling on a per node basis, which just makes things operationally more straightforward, but it's also extremely performant. We can hook these programs into events that typically very lightweight, small programs, kind of, emitting an event, making a decision about whether to drop a packet, making a decision about whether to allow file access, things of that nature. There's super fast, there's no need to transition between kernel space and user space, which is usually quite a costly operation from performance perspective. So eBPF makes it really, you know, it's taking the security tooling, and other forms of tooling, networking and observability. We can take these tools into the kernel, and it's really efficient there. >> So Liz- >> So, if I may, one, just one quick follow up. You gave kind of a space age example (laughs) in your keynote. When, do you think a year from now we'll be able to see, sort of, real world examples in in action? How far away are we? >> Well, some of that is already pretty widely deployed. I mean, in my keynote I was talking about Cilium. Cilium is adopted by hundreds of really big scale deployments. You know, the users file is full of household names who've been using cilium. And as part of that they will be using network policies. And I showed some visualizations this morning of network policy, but again, network policy has been around, pretty much since the early days of Kubernetes. It can be quite fiddly to get it right, but there are plenty of people who are using it at scale today. And then we were also looking at some runtime security detections, seeing things like, in my example, exfiltrating the plans to the Death Star, you know, looking for suspicious executables. And again, that's a little bit, it's a bit newer, but we do have people running that in production today, proving that it really does work, and that eBPF is a scalable technology. It's, I've been fascinated by eBPF for years, and it's really amazing to see it being used in the real world now. >> So Liz, you're a maintainer on the Cilium project. Talk about the use of eBPF in the Cilium project. How is it contributing to cloud native security, and really helping to change the dials on that from an efficiency, from a performance perspective, as well as a, what's in it for me as a business perspective? >> So Cilium is probably best known as a networking plugin for Kubernetes. It, when you are running Kubernetes, you have to make a decision about some networking plugin that you're going to use. And Cilium is, it's an incubating project in the CNCF. It's the most mature of the different CNIs that's in the CNCF at the moment. As I say, very widely deployed. And right from day one, it was based on eBPF. And in fact some of the people who contribute to the eBPF platform within the kernel, are also working on the Cilium project. They've been kind of developed hand in hand for the last six, seven years. So really being able to bring some of that networking capability, it required changes in the kernel that have been put in place several years ago, so that now we can build these amazing tools for Kubernetes operators. So we are using eBPF to make the networking stack for Kubernetes and cloud native really efficient. We can bypass some of the parts of the network stack that aren't necessarily required in a cloud native deployment. We can use it to make these incredibly fast decisions about network policy. And we also have a sub-project called Tetragon, which is a newer part of the Cilium family which uses eBPF to observe these runtime events. The things like people opening a file, or changing the permissions on a file, or making a socket connection. All of these things that as a security engineer you are interested in. Who is running executables who is making network connections, who's accessing files, all of these operations are things that we can observe with Cilium Tetragon. >> I mean it's exciting. We've chatted in the past about that eBPF extended Berkeley Packet Filter, which is about the Linux kernel. And I bring that up Liz, because I think this is the trend I'm trying to understand with this event. It's, I hear bottoms up developer, developer first. It feels like it's an under the hood, infrastructure, security geek fest for practitioners, because Brian, in his keynote, mentioned BIND in reference the late Dan Kaminsky, who was, obviously found that error in BIND at the, in DNS. He mentioned DNS. There's a lot of things that's evolving at the silicone, kernel, kind of root levels of our infrastructure. This seems to be a major shift in focus and rightfully so. Is that something that you guys talk about, or is that coincidence, or am I just overthinking this point in terms of how nerdy it's getting in terms of the importance of, you know, getting down to the low level aspects of protecting everything. And as we heard also the quote was no software secure. (Liz chuckles) So that's up and down the stack of the, kind of the old model. What's your thoughts and reaction to that? >> Yeah, I mean I think a lot of folks who get into security really are interested in these kind of details. You know, you see write-ups of exploits and they, you know, they're quite often really involved, and really require understanding these very deep detailed technical levels. So a lot of us can really geek out about the details of that. The flip side of that is that as an application developer, you know, as- if you are working for a bank, working for a media company, you're writing applications, you shouldn't have to be worried about what's happening at the kernel level. This might be kind of geeky interesting stuff, but really, operationally, it should be taken care of for you. You've got your work cut out building business value in applications. So I think there's this interesting, kind of dual track going on almost, if you like, of the people who really want to get involved in those nitty gritty details, and understand how the underlying, you know, kernel level exploits maybe working. But then how do we make that really easy for people who are running clusters to, I mean like you said, nothing is ever secure, but trying to make things as secure as they can be easily, and make things visual, make things accessible, make things, make it easy to check whether or not you are compliant with whatever regulations you need to be compliant with. That kind of focus on making things usable for the platform team, for the application developers who deliver apps on the platform, that's the important (indistinct)- >> I noticed that the word expert was mentioned, I mentioned earlier with Priyanka. Was there a rationale on the 72 sessions, was there thinking around it or was it kind of like, these are urgent areas, they're obvious low hanging fruit. Was there, take us through the selection process of, or was it just, let's get 72 sessions going to get this (Liz laughs) thing moving? >> No, we did think quite carefully about how we wanted to, what the different focus areas we wanted to include. So we wanted to make sure that we were including things like governance and compliance, and that we talk about not just supply chain, which is clearly a very hot topic at the moment, but also to talk about, you know, threat detection, runtime security. And also really importantly, we wanted to have space to talk about education, to talk about how people can get involved. Because maybe when we talk about all these details, and we get really technical, maybe that's, you know, a bit scary for people who are new into the cloud native security space. We want to make sure that there are tracks and content that are accessible for newcomers to get involved. 'Cause, you know, given time they'll be just as excited about diving into those kind of kernel level details. But everybody needs a place to start, and we wanted to make sure there were conversations about how to get started in security, how to educate other members of your team in your organization about security. So hopefully there's something for everyone. >> That education piece- >> Liz, what's the- >> Oh sorry, Dave. >> What the buzz on on AI? We heard Dan talk about, you know, chatGPT, using it to automate spear phishing. There's always been this tension between security and speed to market, but CISOs are saying, "Hey we're going to a zero trust architecture and that's helping us move faster." Will, in your, is the talk on the floor, AI is going to slow us down a little bit until we figure it out? Or is it actually going to be used as an offensive defensive tool if I can use that angle? >> Yeah, I think all of the above. I actually had an interesting chat this morning. I was talking with Andy Martin from Control Plane, and we were talking about the risk of AI generated code that attempts to replicate what open source libraries already do. So rather than using an existing open source package, an organization might think, "Well, I'll just have my own version, and I'll have an AI write it for me." And I don't, you know, I'm not a lawyer so I dunno what the intellectual property implications of this will be, but imagine companies are just going, "Well you know, write me an SSL library." And that seems terrifying from a security perspective, 'cause there could be all sorts of very slightly different AI generated libraries that pick up the same vulnerabilities that exist in open source code. So, I think we're going to go through a pretty interesting period of vulnerabilities being found in AI generated code that look familiar, and we'll be thinking "Haven't we seen these vulnerabilities before? Yeah, we did, but they were previously in handcrafted code and now we'll see the same things being generated by AI." I mean, in the same way that if you look at an AI generated picture and it's got I don't know, extra fingers, or, you know, extra ears or something that, (Dave laughs) AI does make mistakes. >> So Liz, you talked about the education, the enablement, the 72 sessions, the importance of CloudNativeSecurityCon being its own event this year. What are your hopes and dreams for the practitioners to be able to learn from this event? How do you see the event as really supporting the growth, the development of the cloud native security community as a whole? >> Yeah, I think it's really important that we think of it as a Cloud Native Security community. You know, there are lots of interesting sort of hacker community security related community. Cloud native has been very community focused for a long time, and we really saw, particularly through the tag, the security tag, that there was this growing group of people who were, really wanted to work at that intersection between security and cloud native. And yeah, I think things are going really well this week so far, So I hope this is, you know, the first of many additions of this conference. I think it will also be interesting to see how the balance between a smaller, more focused event, compared to the giant KubeCon and cloud native cons. I, you know, I think there's space for both things, but whether or not there will be other smaller focus areas that want to stand alone and justify being able to stand alone as their own separate conferences, it speaks to the growth of cloud native in general that this is worthwhile doing. >> Yeah. >> It is, and what also speaks to, it reminds me of our tagline here at theCUBE, being able to extract the signal from the noise. Having this event as a standalone, being able to extract the value in it from a security perspective, that those practitioners and the community at large is going to be able to glean from these conversations is something that will be important, that we'll be keeping our eyes on. >> Absolutely. Makes sense for me, yes. >> Yeah, and I think, you know, one of the things, Lisa, that I want to get in, and if you don't mind asking Dave his thoughts, because he just did a breaking analysis on the security landscape. And Dave, you know, as Liz talking about some of these root level things, we talk about silicon advances, powering machine learning, we've been covering a lot of that. You've been covering the general security industry. We got RSA coming up reinforced with AWS, and as you see the cloud native developer first, really driving the standards of the super cloud, the multicloud, you're starting to see a lot more application focus around latency and kind of controlling that, These abstraction layer's starting to see a lot more growth. What's your take, Dave, on what Liz and- is talking about because, you know, you're analyzing the horses on the track, and there's sometimes the old guard security folks, and you got open source continuing to kick butt. And even on the ML side, we've been covering some of these foundation models, you're seeing a real technical growth in open source at all levels and, you know, you still got some proprietary machine learning stuff going on, but security's integrating all that. What's your take and your- what's your breaking analysis on the security piece here? >> I mean, to me the two biggest problems in cyber are just the lack of talent. I mean, it's just really hard to find super, you know, deep expertise and get it quickly. And I think the second is it's just, it's so many tools to deal with. And so the architecture of security is just this mosaic and a mess. That's why I'm excited about initiatives like eBPF because it does simplify things, and developers are being asked to do a lot. And I think one of the other things that's emerging is when you- when we talk about Industry 4.0, and IIoT, you- I'm seeing a lot of tools that are dedicated just to that, you know, slice of the world. And I don't think that's the right approach. I think that there needs to be a more comprehensive view. We're seeing, you know, zero trust architectures come together, and it's going to take some time, but I think that you're going to definitely see, you know, some rethinking of how to architect security. It's a game of whack-a-mole, but I think the industry is just- the technology industry is doing a really really good job of, you know, working hard to solve these problems. And I think the answer is not just another bespoke tool, it's a broader thinking around architectures and consolidating some of those tools, you know, with an end game of really addressing the problem in a more comprehensive fashion. >> Liz, in the last minute or so we have your thoughts on how automation and scale are driving some of these forcing functions around, you know, taking away the toil and the muck around developers, who just want stuff to be code, right? So infrastructure as code. Is that the dynamic here? Is this kind of like new, or is it kind of the same game, different kind of thing? (chuckles) 'Cause you're seeing a lot more machine learning, a lot more automation going on. What's, is that having an impact? What's your thoughts? >> Automation is one of the kind of fundamental underpinnings of cloud native. You know, we're expecting infrastructure to be written as code, We're expecting the platform to be defined in yaml essentially. You know, we are expecting the Kubernetes and surrounding tools to self-heal and to automatically scale and to do things like automated security. If we think about supply chain, you know, automated dependency scanning, think about runtime. Network policy is automated firewalling, if you like, for a cloud native era. So, I think it's all about making that platform predictable. Automation gives us some level of predictability, even if the underlying hardware changes or the scale changes, so that the application developers have something consistent and standardized that they can write to. And you know, at the end of the day, it's all about the business applications that run on top of this infrastructure >> Business applications and the business outcomes. Liz, we so appreciate your time talking to us about this inaugural event, CloudNativeSecurityCon 23. The value in it for those practitioners, all of the content that's going to be discussed and learned, and the growth of the community. Thank you so much, Liz, for sharing your insights with us today. >> Thanks for having me. >> For Liz Rice, John Furrier and Dave Vellante, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the Cube's coverage of CloudNativeSecurityCon 23. (electronic music)

(upbeat music) >> Telecommunic^ations is well north of a trillion-dollar business globally that provides critical services on which virtually everyone on the planet relies. Dramatic changes are occurring in the sector, and one of the most important dimensions of this change is the underlying infrastructure that powers global telecommunications networks. Telcos have been thawing out, if you will, their frozen infrastructure, modernizing. They're opening up. They're disaggregating their infrastructure, separating, for example, the control plane from the data plane and adopting open standards. Telco infrastructure is becoming software-defined, and leading telcos are adopting cloud-native microservices to help make developers more productive, so they can respond more quickly to market changes. They're embracing technology consumption models and selectively leveraging the cloud where it makes sense, and these changes are being driven by market forces, the root of which stem from customer demand. So from a customer's perspective, they want services, and they want them fast, meaning not only at high speeds, but also they want them now. Customers want the latest, the greatest, and they want these services to be reliable and stable with high quality of service levels, and they want them to be highly cost effective. Hello and welcome to this preview of Mobile World Congress 2023. My name is Dave Vellante and at this year's event, theCUBE has a major presence at the show, made possible by Dell Technologies, and with me, to unpack the trends in Telco and look ahead to MWC 23, Dennis Hoffman. He's the senior vice-president and general manager of Dell's telecom business and Aaron Chaisson, who is the vice-president of telecom and edge solutions marketing at Dell Technologies. Gentlemen, welcome. Thanks so much for spending some time with me. >> Thank you, Dave. >> Thanks, glad to be here. So, Dennis, let's start with you. Telcos in recent history have been slow to deliver and to monetize new services, in a large part, because their purpose-built infrastructure can been somewhat of a barrier to respondent to these market forces. In many ways, this is what makes telecoms, really, this market, so exciting. So from your perspective, where is the action in this space? >> Yeah, the action, Dave, is kind of all over the place, partly because it's an ecosystem play. You know, I think it's been, as you point out, the disaggregation trend has been going on for a while. The opportunity's been clear, but it has taken a few years to get all of the vendors and all of the components that make up a solution, as well as the operators themselves, to a point where we can start putting this stuff together and actually achieving some of the promise. >> So, Aaron, for those who might not be as familiar with Dell's a activities in this area, you know, here we are just ahead of Mobile World Congress. It's the largest event for telecoms. What should people know about Dell, and what's the key message to this industry? >> Sure, yeah, I think everybody knows that there's a lot of innovation that's been happening in the industry of late. One of the major trends that we're seeing is that shift from more of a vertically-integrated technology stack to more of a disaggregated set of solutions, and that trend has actually created a ton of innovation that's happening across the industry, well, along technology vendors and providers, the telecoms themselves, and so one of the things that Dell's really looking to do is, as Dennis talked about, is build out a really strong ecosystem of partners and vendors that we're working closely together to be able to collaborate on new technologies, new capabilities, that are solving challenges that the networks are seeing today, be able to create new solutions built on those in order to be able to bring new value to the industry and then finally, we want to help both partners as well as our CSP providers activate those changes so that they can bring new solutions to market to be able to serve their customers, and so the key areas that we're really focusing on, with our customers, is technologies to help modernize the network to be able to capitalize on the value of open architectures and bring price performance to what they're expecting and availability that they're expecting today and then also partner with the lines of business to be able to take these new capabilities, produce new solutions and then deliver new value to their customers. >> Great, thank you, Aaron. So, Dennis, I have known you for a number of years. I've watched you. You are a trend spotter, and you're a strategic thinker, and I love now the fact that you're running a business that you had to go out and analyze, and now you got got to make it happen. So how would you describe Dell's strategy in this market? >> Well, it's really two things, and I appreciate the comment. I'm not sure how much of a trend spotter I am, but I certainly enjoy, and I think I'm fascinated by what's going on in this industry right now. Our two main thrusts, Dave, are, first round, trying to catalyze that ecosystem, you know, be a force for pulling together a group of folks, vendors, that have been flying in fairly loose formation for a couple of years to deliver the kinds of solutions that move the needle forward and produce the outcomes that our network-operator customers can actually buy, and consume, and deploy, and have them be supported. The other thing is there's a couple of very key technology areas that need to be advanced here. This ends up being a much anticipated year, in telecom, because of the delivery of some open infrastructure solutions that have been being developed for years, with the Intel Sapphire Rapids program coming to market. We've of course got some purpose-built solutions on top of that for telecommunications networks, some expanded partnerships in the area of multi-cloud infrastructure, and so I would say the second main thrust is we've got to bring some intellectual property to the party. It's not just about pulling the ecosystem together, but those two things together really form the twin thrusts of our strategy. >> Okay, so as you point out, you're obviously not going to go alone in this market. It's way too broad. There's so many routes to market, partnerships, obviously, very, very important. So can you share a little bit more about the ecosystem and partners, maybe give some examples of some of the key partners that you'd be highlighting or working with, maybe at Mobile World Congress or other activities this year? >> Yeah, absolutely. You know, as Aaron touched on. I'm a visual thinker. The way I think about this thing is a very, very vertical architecture is tipping sideways. It's becoming horizontal, and all of the layers of that horizontal architecture are really where the partnerships are at. So let's start at the bottom, silicon. The silicon ecosystem is very much focused on this market and producing very specific products to enable open, high-performance telecom networks. That's both in the form of host processors as well as accelerators. One layer up, of course, is the stuff that we're known for, subsystems, compute, storage, the hardware infrastructure that forms the foundation for telco clouds. A layer above that, all of the cloud software layer, the virtualization and containerization software and all of the usual suspects there, all of whom are very good partners of ours, and we're looking to expand that pretty broadly this year, and then at the top of the layer cake, all of the network functions, all of the VNFs and CNFs that were once kind of the top of proprietary stacks that are now opening up and being delivered as well-formed containers that can run on these clouds. So, you know, we're focusing on all of those, if you will, product partnerships, and there is a services wrapper around all of it, the systems integration necessary to make these systems part of a carrier's network, which, of course, has been running for a long time and needs to be integrated with in a very specific way, and so all of that together kind of forms the ecosystem. All of those are partners, and we're really excited about being at the heart of it. >> Interesting, it's not like we've never seen this movie before, which is sort of repeating itself in telco. Aaron, you heard my little intro up front about the need to modernize infrastructure. I wonder if I could touch on, you know, another major trend which we're seeing, is the cloud, and I'm talking about, not only public, but private and hybrid cloud. The public cloud is an opportunity, but it's also a threat for telcos. You know, telecom providers are looking to the public cloud for specific use cases. You think about, like, bursting for an iPhone launch or whatever but at the same time, these cloud vendors, they're sort of competing with telcos. They're providing, you know, local zones, for example, sometimes trying to do an end run on the telco connectivity services. So telecom companies, they have to find the right balance between what they own and what they rent, and I wonder if you could add some color as to what you see in the market and what Dell, specifically, is doing to support these trends. >> Yeah, I think the most important thing is what we're seeing, as you said, is these aren't things that we haven't seen before, and I think that telecom is really going through their own set of cloud transformations, and so one of the hot topics in the industry now is what is telco cloud and what does that look like going forward? And it's going to be a, as you said, a combination of services that they offer, services that they leverage, but at the end of the day, it's going to help them modernize how they deliver telecommunication services to their customers and then provide value-added services on top of that. From a Dell perspective, you know, we're really providing the technologies to provide the underpinnings to lay a foundation on which that network can be built, whether that's best-of-breed servers that are built and designed for the telecom environments. Recently we announced our, our Infra Block program in partnering with virtualization providers to be able to provide engineered systems that dramatically simplify how our customers can deploy, manage and lifecycle-manage throughout day-two operations, an entire cloud environment, and whether they're using Red Hat, whether they're using Wind River or VMware or other virtualization layers, they can deploy the right virtualization layer at the right part of their network to support the applications they're looking to drive, and Dell is looking to solve how they simplify and manage all of that, both from a hardware as well as a management software perspective. So this is really what Dell's doing to, again, partner with the broader technology community to help make that telco cloud a reality. >> Aaron, let's stay here for a second. I'm interested in some of the use cases that you're going after with customers. You've got edge infrastructure, remote work, 5G. Where's security fit? What are the focus areas for Dell, and can we double-click on that a little bit? >> Yeah, I mean, I think there's two main areas of telecommunication industry that we're talking to. One, we've really been talking about sort of the network buyer, how do they modernize the core, the network edge, the RAN capabilities, to deliver traditional telecommunication services and modernize that as they move into 5G and beyond. I think the other side of the business is telecoms are really looking, from a line of business perspective, to figure out how do they monetize that network and be able to deliver value-added services to their enterprise customers on top of these new networks. So you were just touching on a couple of things that are really critical. You know, in the enterprise space, AI and IoT is driving a tremendous amount of innovation out there, and there's a need for being able to support and manage edge compute at scale, be able to provide connectivity, like private mobility and 4G and 5G, being able to support things like mobile workforces and client capabilities to be able to access these devices that are around all of these edge environments of the enterprises, and telecoms are seen as that, as an opportunity for them to not only provide connectivity, but how do they extend their cloud out into these enterprise environments with compute, with connectivity, with client and connectivity resources, and even also provide protection for those environments as well. So these are areas that Dell's historically very strong at, being able to provide compute, being able to provide connectivity and being able to provide data protection and client services. We are looking to work closely with lines of businesses to be able to develop solutions that they can bring to market in combination with us to be able to serve their end user customers and their enterprises. So those are really the two key areas, not only network buyer, but being able to enable the lines of business to go and capitalize on the services they're developing for their customers. >> I think that line of business aspect is key. I mean, the telcos have had to sit back and provide the plumbing. Cost per bit goes down. Data consumption going through the roof. All the way over to the top guys, you know, had the field day with the data and the customer relationships, and now it's almost like the revenge of the telcos. (chuckles) Dennis, I wonder if we could talk about the future. What can we expect in the years ahead from Dell, if you, you know, break out the binoculars a little bit? >> Yeah, I think you hit it earlier. We've seen the movie before. This has happened in the IT data center. We went from proprietary vertical solutions to horizontal open systems. We went from client server to software-defined, open-hardware, cloud-native and you know, the trend is likely to be exactly that, in the telecom industry, because that's what the operators want. They're not naive to what's happened in the IT data center. They all run very large data centers, and they're trying to get some of the scale economies, some of the agility, the cost of ownership benefits for the reasons Aaron just discussed. You know, it's clear, as you point out, this industry's been really defined by the inability to stop investing and the difficulty to monetize that investment, and I think now everybody's looking at this 5G, and, frankly, 5G plus, 6G and beyond, as the opportunity to really go get a chunk of that revenue, and enterprise edge is the target. >> And 5G is touching so many industries, and that kind of brings me here into Mobile World Congress. I mean, you look at the floor layout, it's amazing. You got industry 4.0. You've got, you know, our traditional industry and telco colliding. There's public policy. So give us a teaser to Mobile World Congress '23. What's on deck at the show for from Dell? >> Yeah, we're really excited about Mobile World Congress. This, as you know, is a massive event for the industry every year, and it's really the event that the whole industry uses to kick off this coming year. So we're going to be using this, obviously, to talk to our customers and our partners about what Dell's looking to do and what we're innovating on right now, and what we're looking to partner with them around. In the front of the house, we're going to be highlighting 13 different solutions and demonstrations to be able to show our customers what we're doing today and show them the use cases and put it into action, so they get to actually look and feel and touch and experience what it is that we're working around. Obviously, meetings are important. Everybody knows Mobile World Congress is the place to get those meetings and kick off for the year. You know, we're looking at several hundred meetings, hundreds of meetings that we're going to be looking to have across the industry with our customers and partners and the broader community, and, of course, we've also got technology that's going to be in a variety of different partner spaces as well. So you can come and see us in hall three, but we're also going to have technologies kind of spread all over the floor, and, of course, there's always theCUBE. You're going to be able to see us live all four days, all day, every day. You're going to be hearing our executives, our partners, our customers, talk about, you know, what Dell is doing to innovate in the industry and how we're looking to leverage the broader open ecosystem to be able to transform, you know, the network and what we're looking to do. So in that space, we're going to be focusing on what we're doing from an ecosystem perspective, our infrastructure focus. We'll be talking about what we're doing to support telco cloud transformation and then finally, as we talked about earlier, how are we helping the lines of business within our telecoms monetize the opportunity. So these are all different things we're really excited to be focusing on and look forward to the event next month. >> Yeah, it's going to be awesome In Barcelona at the Fira. As you say, Dell's big presence in Hall three. Orange is in there, Deutsche Telekom. Intel's in Hall three. VMware's there, Nokia, Vodafone. You got great things to see there. Check that out and of course, theCUBE, we are super excited to be collaborating with you. We got a great setup. We're in the walkway, right between halls four and five, right across from the Government of Catalonia, who are the host partners for the event. So there's going to be a ton of action there. Guys, can't wait to see you there. Really appreciate your time today. >> Great, thanks. >> All right, Mobile World Congress, theCUBE's coverage starts on February 27th, right after the keynotes. So first thing in the morning, East coast time, we'll be broadcasting, as Aaron said, all week, Monday through Thursday, on the show floor. Check that out at thecube.net. Siliconangle.com has all the written coverage, and go to dell.com, see what's happening there. Have all the action from the event. Don't miss us. This is Dave Vellante. We'll see you there. (upbeat music)

(gentle music playing) >> For centuries, we've been captivated by the concept of machines doing the job of humans. And over the past decade or so, we've really focused on AI and the possibility of intelligent machines that can perform cognitive tasks. Now in the past few years, with the popularity of machine learning models ranging from recent ChatGPT to Bert, we're starting to see how AI is changing the way we interact with the world. How is AI transforming the way we do business? And what does the future hold for us there. At theCube, we've covered Oracle's AI and ML strategy for years, which has really been used to drive automation into Oracle's autonomous database. We've talked a lot about MySQL HeatWave in database machine learning, and AI pushed into Oracle's business apps. Oracle, it tends to lead in AI, but not competing as a direct AI player per se, but rather embedding AI and machine learning into its portfolio to enhance its existing products, and bring new services and offerings to the market. Now, last October at Cloud World in Las Vegas, Oracle partnered with Nvidia, which is the go-to AI silicon provider for vendors. And they announced an investment, a pretty significant investment to deploy tens of thousands more Nvidia GPUs to OCI, the Oracle Cloud Infrastructure and build out Oracle's infrastructure for enterprise scale AI. Now, Oracle CEO, Safra Catz said something to the effect of this alliance is going to help customers across industries from healthcare, manufacturing, telecoms, and financial services to overcome the multitude of challenges they face. Presumably she was talking about just driving more automation and more productivity. Now, to learn more about Oracle's plans for AI, we'd like to welcome in Elad Ziklik, who's the vice president of AI services at Oracle. Elad, great to see you. Welcome to the show. >> Thank you. Thanks for having me. >> You're very welcome. So first let's talk about Oracle's path to AI. I mean, it's the hottest topic going for years you've been incorporating machine learning into your products and services, you know, could you tell us what you've been working on, how you got here? >> So great question. So as you mentioned, I think most of the original four-way into AI was on embedding AI and using AI to make our applications, and databases better. So inside mySQL HeatWave, inside our autonomous database in power, we've been driving AI, all of course are SaaS apps. So Fusion, our large enterprise business suite for HR applications and CRM and ELP, and whatnot has built in AI inside it. Most recently, NetSuite, our small medium business SaaS suite started using AI for things like automated invoice processing and whatnot. And most recently, over the last, I would say two years, we've started exposing and bringing these capabilities into the broader OCI Oracle Cloud infrastructure. So the developers, and ISVs and customers can start using our AI capabilities to make their apps better and their experiences and business workflow better, and not just consume these as embedded inside Oracle. And this recent partnership that you mentioned with Nvidia is another step in bringing the best AI infrastructure capabilities into this platform so you can actually build any type of machine learning workflow or AI model that you want on Oracle Cloud. >> So when I look at the market, I see companies out there like DataRobot or C3 AI, there's maybe a half dozen that sort of pop up on my radar anyway. And my premise has always been that most customers, they don't want to become AI experts, they want to buy applications and have AI embedded or they want AI to manage their infrastructure. So my question to you is, how does Oracle help its OCI customers support their business with AI? >> So it's a great question. So I think what most customers want is business AI. They want AI that works for the business. They want AI that works for the enterprise. I call it the last mile of AI. And they want this thing to work. The majority of them don't want to hire a large and expensive data science teams to go and build everything from scratch. They just want the business problem solved by applying AI to it. My best analogy is Lego. So if you think of Lego, Lego has these millions Lego blocks that you can use to build anything that you want. But the majority of people like me or like my kids, they want the Lego death style kit or the Lego Eiffel Tower thing. They want a thing that just works, and it's very easy to use. And still Lego blocks, you still need to build some things together, which just works for the scenario that you're looking for. So that's our focus. Our focus is making it easy for customers to apply AI where they need to, in the right business context. So whether it's embedding it inside the business applications, like adding forecasting capabilities to your supply chain management or financial planning software, whether it's adding chat bots into the line of business applications, integrating these things into your analytics dashboard, even all the way to, we have a new platform piece we call ML applications that allows you to take a machine learning model, and scale it for the thousands of tenants that you would be. 'Cause this is a big problem for most of the ML use cases. It's very easy to build something for a proof of concept or a pilot or a demo. But then if you need to take this and then deploy it across your thousands of customers or your thousands of regions or facilities, then it becomes messy. So this is where we spend our time making it easy to take these things into production in the context of your business application or your business use case that you're interested in right now. >> So you mentioned chat bots, and I want to talk about ChatGPT, but my question here is different, we'll talk about that in a minute. So when you think about these chat bots, the ones that are conversational, my experience anyway is they're just meh, they're not that great. But the ones that actually work pretty well, they have a conditioned response. Now they're limited, but they say, which of the following is your problem? And then if that's one of the following is your problem, you can maybe solve your problem. But this is clearly a trend and it helps the line of business. How does Oracle think about these use cases for your customers? >> Yeah, so I think the key here is exactly what you said. It's about task completion. The general purpose bots are interesting, but as you said, like are still limited. They're getting much better, I'm sure we'll talk about ChatGPT. But I think what most enterprises want is around task completion. I want to automate my expense report processing. So today inside Oracle we have a chat bot where I submit my expenses the bot ask a couple of question, I answer them, and then I'm done. Like I don't need to go to our fancy application, and manually submit an expense report. I do this via Slack. And the key is around managing the right expectations of what this thing is capable of doing. Like, I have a story from I think five, six years ago when technology was much inferior than it is today. Well, one of the telco providers I was working with wanted to roll a chat bot that does realtime translation. So it was for a support center for of the call centers. And what they wanted do is, Hey, we have English speaking employees, whatever, 24/7, if somebody's calling, and the native tongue is different like Hebrew in my case, or Chinese or whatnot, then we'll give them a chat bot that they will interact with and will translate this on the fly and everything would work. And when they rolled it out, the feedback from customers was horrendous. Customers said, the technology sucks. It's not good. I hate it, I hate your company, I hate your support. And what they've done is they've changed the narrative. Instead of, you go to a support center, and you assume you're going to talk to a human, and instead you get a crappy chat bot, they're like, Hey, if you want to talk to a Hebrew speaking person, there's a four hour wait, please leave your phone and we'll call you back. Or you can try a new amazing Hebrew speaking AI powered bot and it may help your use case. Do you want to try it out? And some people said, yeah, let's try it out. Plus one to try it out. And the feedback, even though it was the exact same technology was amazing. People were like, oh my God, this is so innovative, this is great. Even though it was the exact same experience that they hated a few weeks earlier on. So I think the key lesson that I picked from this experience is it's all about setting the right expectations, and working around the right use case. If you are replacing a human, the level is different than if you are just helping or augmenting something that otherwise would take a lot of time. And I think this is the focus that we are doing, picking up the tasks that people want to accomplish or that enterprise want to accomplish for the customers, for the employees. And using chat bots to make those specific ones better rather than, hey, this is going to replace all humans everywhere, and just be better than that. >> Yeah, I mean, to the point you mentioned expense reports. I'm in a Twitter thread and one guy says, my favorite part of business travel is filling out expense reports. It's an hour of excitement to figure out which receipts won't scan. We can all relate to that. It's just the worst. When you think about companies that are building custom AI driven apps, what can they do on OCI? What are the best options for them? Do they need to hire an army of machine intelligence experts and AI specialists? Help us understand your point of view there. >> So over the last, I would say the two or three years we've developed a full suite of machine learning and AI services for, I would say probably much every use case that you would expect right now from applying natural language processing to understanding customer support tickets or social media, or whatnot to computer vision platforms or computer vision services that can understand and detect objects, and count objects on shelves or detect cracks in the pipe or defecting parts, all the way to speech services. It can actually transcribe human speech. And most recently we've launched a new document AI service. That can actually look at unstructured documents like receipts or invoices or government IDs or even proprietary documents, loan application, student application forms, patient ingestion and whatnot and completely automate them using AI. So if you want to do one of the things that are, I would say common bread and butter for any industry, whether it's financial services or healthcare or manufacturing, we have a suite of services that any developer can go, and use easily customized with their own data. You don't need to be an expert in deep learning or large language models. You could just use our automobile capabilities, and build your own version of the models. Just go ahead and use them. And if you do have proprietary complex scenarios that you need customer from scratch, we actually have the most cost effective platform for that. So we have the OCI data science as well as built-in machine learning platform inside the databases inside the Oracle database, and mySQL HeatWave that allow data scientists, python welding people that actually like to build and tweak and control and improve, have everything that they need to go and build the machine learning models from scratch, deploy them, monitor and manage them at scale in production environment. And most of it is brand new. So we did not have these technologies four or five years ago and we've started building them and they're now at enterprise scale over the last couple of years. >> So what are some of the state-of-the-art tools, that AI specialists and data scientists need if they're going to go out and develop these new models? >> So I think it's on three layers. I think there's an infrastructure layer where the Nvidia's of the world come into play. For some of these things, you want massively efficient, massively scaled infrastructure place. So we are the most cost effective and performant large scale GPU training environment today. We're going to be first to onboard the new Nvidia H100s. These are the new super powerful GPU's for large language model training. So we have that covered for you in case you need this 'cause you want to build these ginormous things. You need a data science platform, a platform where you can open a Python notebook, and just use all these fancy open source frameworks and create the models that you want, and then click on a button and deploy it. And it infinitely scales wherever you need it. And in many cases you just need the, what I call the applied AI services. You need the Lego sets, the Lego death style, Lego Eiffel Tower. So we have a suite of these sets for typical scenarios, whether it's cognitive services of like, again, understanding images, or documents all the way to solving particular business problems. So an anomaly detection service, demand focusing service that will be the equivalent of these Lego sets. So if this is the business problem that you're looking to solve, we have services out there where we can bring your data, call an API, train a model, get the model and use it in your production environment. So wherever you want to play, all the way into embedding this thing, inside this applications, obviously, wherever you want to play, we have the tools for you to go and engage from infrastructure to SaaS at the top, and everything in the middle. >> So when you think about the data pipeline, and the data life cycle, and the specialized roles that came out of kind of the (indistinct) era if you will. I want to focus on two developers and data scientists. So the developers, they hate dealing with infrastructure and they got to deal with infrastructure. Now they're being asked to secure the infrastructure, they just want to write code. And a data scientist, they're spending all their time trying to figure out, okay, what's the data quality? And they're wrangling data and they don't spend enough time doing what they want to do. So there's been a lack of collaboration. Have you seen that change, are these approaches allowing collaboration between data scientists and developers on a single platform? Can you talk about that a little bit? >> Yeah, that is a great question. One of the biggest set of scars that I have on my back from for building these platforms in other companies is exactly that. Every persona had a set of tools, and these tools didn't talk to each other and the handoff was painful. And most of the machine learning things evaporate or die on the floor because of this problem. It's very rarely that they are unsuccessful because the algorithm wasn't good enough. In most cases it's somebody builds something, and then you can't take it to production, you can't integrate it into your business application. You can't take the data out, train, create an endpoint and integrate it back like it's too painful. So the way we are approaching this is focused on this problem exactly. We have a single set of tools that if you publish a model as a data scientist and developers, and even business analysts that are seeing a inside of business application could be able to consume it. We have a single model store, a single feature store, a single management experience across the various personas that need to play in this. And we spend a lot of time building, and borrowing a word that cellular folks used, and I really liked it, building inside highways to make it easier to bring these insights into where you need them inside applications, both inside our applications, inside our SaaS applications, but also inside custom third party and even first party applications. And this is where a lot of our focus goes to just because we have dealt with so much pain doing this inside our own SaaS that we now have built the tools, and we're making them available for others to make this process of building a machine learning outcome driven insight in your app easier. And it's not just the model development, and it's not just the deployment, it's the entire journey of taking the data, building the model, training it, deploying it, looking at the real data that comes from the app, and creating this feedback loop in a more efficient way. And that's our focus area. Exactly this problem. >> Well thank you for that. So, last week we had our super cloud two event, and I had Juan Loza on and he spent a lot of time talking about how open Oracle is in its philosophy, and I got a lot of feedback. They were like, Oracle open, I don't really think, but the truth is if you think about database Oracle database, it never met a hardware platform that it didn't like. So in that sense it's open. So, but my point is, a big part of of machine learning and AI is driven by open source tools, frameworks, what's your open source strategy? What do you support from an open source standpoint? >> So I'm a strong believer that you don't actually know, nobody knows where the next slip fog or the next industry shifting innovation in AI is going to come from. If you look six months ago, nobody foreseen Dali, the magical text to image generation and the exploding brought into just art and design type of experiences. If you look six weeks ago, I don't think anybody's seen ChatGPT, and what it can do for a whole bunch of industries. So to me, assuming that a customer or partner or developer would want to lock themselves into only the tools that a specific vendor can produce is ridiculous. 'Cause nobody knows, if anybody claims that they know where the innovation is going to come from in a year or two, let alone in five or 10, they're just wrong or lying. So our strategy for Oracle is to, I call this the Netflix of AI. So if you think about Netflix, they produced a bunch of high quality shows on their own. A few years ago it was House of Cards. Last month my wife and I binge watched Ginny and Georgie, but they also curated a lot of shows that they found around the world and bought them to their customers. So it started with things like Seinfeld or Friends and most recently it was Squid games and those are famous Israeli TV series called Founder that Netflix bought in, and they bought it as is and they gave it the Netflix value. So you have captioning and you have the ability to speed the movie and you have it inside your app, and you can download it and watch it offline and everything, but nobody Netflix was involved in the production of these first seasons. Now if these things hunt and they're great, then the third season or the fourth season will get the full Netflix production value, high value budget, high value location shooting or whatever. But you as a customer, you don't care whether the producer and director, and screenplay writing is a Netflix employee or is somebody else's employee. It is fulfilled by Netflix. I believe that we will become, or we are looking to become the Netflix of AI. We are building a bunch of AI in a bunch of places where we think it's important and we have some competitive advantage like healthcare with Acellular partnership or whatnot. But I want to bring the best AI software and hardware to OCI and do a fulfillment by Oracle on that. So you'll get the Oracle security and identity and single bill and everything you'd expect from a company like Oracle. But we don't have to be building the data science, and the models for everything. So this means both open source recently announced a partnership with Anaconda, the leading provider of Python distribution in the data science ecosystem where we are are doing a joint strategic partnership of bringing all the goodness into Oracle customers as well as in the process of doing the same with Nvidia, and all those software libraries, not just the Hubble, both for other stuff like Triton, but also for healthcare specific stuff as well as other ISVs, other AI leading ISVs that we are in the process of partnering with to get their stuff into OCI and into Oracle so that you can truly consume the best AI hardware, and the best AI software in the world on Oracle. 'Cause that is what I believe our customers would want the ability to choose from any open source engine, and honestly from any ISV type of solution that is AI powered and they want to use it in their experiences. >> So you mentioned ChatGPT, I want to talk about some of the innovations that are coming. As an AI expert, you see ChatGPT on the one hand, I'm sure you weren't surprised. On the other hand, maybe the reaction in the market, and the hype is somewhat surprising. You know, they say that we tend to under or over-hype things in the early stages and under hype them long term, you kind of use the internet as example. What's your take on that premise? >> So. I think that this type of technology is going to be an inflection point in how software is being developed. I truly believe this. I think this is an internet style moment, and the way software interfaces, software applications are being developed will dramatically change over the next year two or three because of this type of technologies. I think there will be industries that will be shifted. I think education is a good example. I saw this thing opened on my son's laptop. So I think education is going to be transformed. Design industry like images or whatever, it's already been transformed. But I think that for mass adoption, like beyond the hype, beyond the peak of inflected expectations, if I'm using Gartner terminology, I think certain things need to go and happen. One is this thing needs to become more reliable. So right now it is a complete black box that sometimes produce magic, and sometimes produce just nonsense. And it needs to have better explainability and better lineage to, how did you get to this answer? 'Cause I think enterprises are going to really care about the things that they surface with the customers or use internally. So I think that is one thing that's going to come out. And the other thing that's going to come out is I think it's going to come industry specific large language models or industry specific ChatGPTs. Something like how OpenAI did co-pilot for writing code. I think we will start seeing this type of apps solving for specific business problems, understanding contracts, understanding healthcare, writing doctor's notes on behalf of doctors so they don't have to spend time manually recording and analyzing conversations. And I think that would become the sweet spot of this thing. There will be companies, whether it's OpenAI or Microsoft or Google or hopefully Oracle that will use this type of technology to solve for specific very high value business needs. And I think this will change how interfaces happen. So going back to your expense report, the world of, I'm going to go into an app, and I'm going to click on seven buttons in order to get some job done like this world is gone. Like I'm going to say, hey, please do this and that. And I expect an answer to come out. I've seen a recent demo about, marketing in sales. So a customer sends an email that is interested in something and then a ChatGPT powered thing just produces the answer. I think this is how the world is going to evolve. Like yes, there's a ton of hype, yes, it looks like magic and right now it is magic, but it's not yet productive for most enterprise scenarios. But in the next 6, 12, 24 months, this will start getting more dependable, and it's going to change how these industries are being managed. Like I think it's an internet level revolution. That's my take. >> It's very interesting. And it's going to change the way in which we have. Instead of accessing the data center through APIs, we're going to access it through natural language processing and that opens up technology to a huge audience. Last question, is a two part question. And the first part is what you guys are working on from the futures, but the second part of the question is, we got data scientists and developers in our audience. They love the new shiny toy. So give us a little glimpse of what you're working on in the future, and what would you say to them to persuade them to check out Oracle's AI services? >> Yep. So I think there's two main things that we're doing, one is around healthcare. With a new recent acquisition, we are spending a significant effort around revolutionizing healthcare with AI. Of course many scenarios from patient care using computer vision and cameras through automating, and making better insurance claims to research and pharma. We are making the best models from leading organizations, and internal available for hospitals and researchers, and insurance providers everywhere. And we truly are looking to become the leader in AI for healthcare. So I think that's a huge focus area. And the second part is, again, going back to the enterprise AI angle. Like we want to, if you have a business problem that you want to apply here to solve, we want to be your platform. Like you could use others if you want to build everything complicated and whatnot. We have a platform for that as well. But like, if you want to apply AI to solve a business problem, we want to be your platform. We want to be the, again, the Netflix of AI kind of a thing where we are the place for the greatest AI innovations accessible to any developer, any business analyst, any user, any data scientist on Oracle Cloud. And we're making a significant effort on these two fronts as well as developing a lot of the missing pieces, and building blocks that we see are needed in this space to make truly like a great experience for developers and data scientists. And what would I recommend? Get started, try it out. We actually have a shameless sales plug here. We have a free deal for all of our AI services. So it typically cost you nothing. I would highly recommend to just go, and try these things out. Go play with it. If you are a python welding developer, and you want to try a little bit of auto mail, go down that path. If you're not even there and you're just like, hey, I have these customer feedback things and I want to try out, if I can understand them and apply AI and visualize, and do some cool stuff, we have services for that. My recommendation is, and I think ChatGPT got us 'cause I see people that have nothing to do with AI, and can't even spell AI going and trying it out. I think this is the time. Go play with these things, go play with these technologies and find what AI can do to you or for you. And I think Oracle is a great place to start playing with these things. >> Elad, thank you. Appreciate you sharing your vision of making Oracle the Netflix of AI. Love that and really appreciate your time. >> Awesome. Thank you. Thank you for having me. >> Okay. Thanks for watching this Cube conversation. This is Dave Vellante. We'll see you next time. (gentle music playing)

>>The cube presents Ignite 22, brought to you by Palo Alto Networks. >>Good morning. Live from the MGM Grand. It's the cube at Palo Alto Networks Ignite 2022. Lisa Martin here with Dave Valante, day two, Dave of our coverage, or last live day of the year, which I can't believe, lots of good news coming out from Palo Alto Networks. We're gonna sit down with its Chief product officer next and dissect all of that. >>Yeah. You know, oftentimes in, in events like this, day two is product day. And look, it's all about products and sales. Yeah, I mean those, that's the, the, the golden rule. Get the product right, get the sales right, and everything else will take care of itself. So let's talk product. >>Yeah, let's talk product. Lee Claridge joins us, the Chief Product Officer at Palo Alto Networks. Welcome Lee. Great to have >>You. Thank you so much. >>So we didn't get to see your keynote yesterday, but we heard one of the things, you know, we've been talking about the threat landscape, the challenges. We had Unit 42, Wendy on yesterday. We had Nash on and near talking about the massive challenges in the threat landscape. But we understand, despite that you are optimistic. I am. Talk about your optimism given the massive challenges that every organization is facing today. >>Look, cybersecurity's hard and often in cybersecurity in the industry, a lot of people get sort of really focused on what the threat actors are doing, why they're successful. We investigate breaches and we think of it, it just starts to feel somewhat overwhelming for a lot of folks. And I just happen to think a little bit differently. I, I look at it and I think it's actually a solvable problem. >>Talk about cyber resilience. How does Palo Alto Networks define that and how does it help customers achieve that? Cuz that's the, that's the holy grail these days. >>Yes. Look, the, the way I think about cyber resilience is basically in two pieces. One, it's all about how do we prevent the threat actors from actually being successful in the first place. Second, we also have to be prepared for what happens if they happen to find a way to get through, and how do we make sure that that happens? The blast radius is, is as narrowly contained as possible. And so the, the way that we approach this is, you know, I, I kind of think in terms of like threes three core principles. Number one, we have to have amazing technology and we have to constantly be, keep keeping up with and ideally ahead of what attackers are doing. It's a big part of my job as the chief product officer, right? Second is we, you know, one of the, the big transformations that's happened is the advent of, of AI and the opportunity, as long as we can do it, a great job of collecting great data, we can drive AI and machine learning models that can start to be used for our advantage as defenders, and then further use that to drive automation. >>So we take the human out of the response as much as possible. What that allows us to do is actually to start using AI and automation to disrupt attackers as it's happening. The third piece then becomes natively integrating these capabilities into a platform. And when we do that, what allows us to do is to make sure that we are consistently delivering cybersecurity everywhere that it needs to happen. That we don't have gaps. Yeah. So great tech AI and automation deliver natively integrated through platforms. This is how we achieve cyber resilience. >>So I like the positivity. In fact, Steven Schmidt, who's now the CSO of, of Amazon, you know, Steven, and it was the CSO at AWS at the time, the first reinforced, he stood up on stage and said, listen, this narrative that's all gloom and doom is not the right approach. We actually are doing a good job and we have the capability. So I was like, yeah, you know, okay. I'm, I'm down with that. Now when I, my question is around the, the portfolio. I, I was looking at, you know, some of your alternatives and options and the website. I mean, you got network security, cloud security, you got sassy, you got capp, you got endpoint, pretty much everything. You got cider security, which you just recently acquired for, you know, this whole shift left stuff, you know, nothing in there on identity yet. That's good. You partner for that, but, so could you describe sort of how you think about the portfolio from a product standpoint? How you continue to evolve it and what's the direction? Yes. >>So the, the, the cybersecurity industry has long had this, I'm gonna call it a major flaw. And the major flaw of the cybersecurity industry has been that every time there is a problem to be solved, there's another 10 or 20 startups that get funded to solve that problem. And so pretty soon what you have is you're, if you're a customer of this is you have 50, a hundred, the, the record is over 400 different cybersecurity products that as a customer you're trying to operationalize. >>It's not a good record to have. >>No, it's not a good record. No. This is, this is the opposite of Yes. Not a good personal best. So the, so the reason I start there in answering your question is the, the way that, so that's one end of the extreme, the other end of the extreme view to say, is there such a thing as a single platform that does everything? No, there's not. That would be nice. That was, that sounds nice. But the reality is that cybersecurity has to be much broader than any one single thing can do. And so the, the way that we approach this is, is three fundamental areas that, that we, Palo Alto Networks are going to be the best at. One is network security within network security. This includes hardware, NextGen, firewalls, software NextGen, firewalls, sassy, all the different security services that tie into that. All of that makes up our network security platforms. >>So everything to do with network security is integrated in that one place. Second is around cloud security. The shift to the cloud is happening is very real. That's where Prisma Cloud takes center stage. C a P is the industry acronym. If if five letters thrown together can be called an acronym. The, so cloud native application protection platform, right? So this is where we bring all of the different cloud security capabilities integrated together, delivered through one platform. And then security, security operations is the third for us. This is Cortex. And this is where we bring together endpoint security, edr, ndr, attack, surface management automation, all of this. And what we had, what we announced earlier this year is x Im, which is a Cortex product for actually integrating all of that together into one SOC transformation platform. So those are the three platforms, and that's how we deliver much, much, much greater levels of native integration of capabilities, but in a logical way where we're not trying to overdo it. >>And cider will fit into two or three >>Into Prisma cloud into the second cloud to two. Yeah. As part of the shift left strategy of how we secure makes sense applications in the cloud >>When you're in customer conversations. You mentioned the record of 400 different product. That's crazy. Nash was saying yesterday between 30 and 50 and we talked with him and near about what's realistic in terms of getting organizations to, to be able to consolidate. I'd love to understand what does cybersecurity transformation look like for the average organization that's running 30 to 50 point >>Solutions? Yeah, look, 30 to 50 is probably, maybe normal. A hundred is not unusual. Obviously 400 is the extreme example. But all of those are, those numbers are too big right now. I think, I think realistic is high. Single digits, low double digits is probably somewhat realistic for most organizations, the most complex organizations that might go a bit above that if we're really doing a good job. That's, that's what I think. Now second, I do really want to point out on, on the product guy. So, so maybe this is just my way of thinking, consolidation is an outcome of having more tightly and natively integrated capabilities. Got you. And the reason I flip that around is if I just went to you and say, Hey, would you like to consolidate? That just means maybe fewer vendors that that helps the procurement person. Yes. You know, have to negotiate with fewer companies. Yeah. Integration is actually a technology statement. It's delivering better outcomes because we've designed multiple capabilities to work together natively ourselves as the developers so that the customer doesn't have to figure out how to do it. It just happens that by, by doing that, the customer gets all this wonderful technical benefit. And then there's this outcome sitting there called, you've just consolidated your complexity. How >>Specialized is the customer? I think a data pipelines, and I think I have a data engineer, have a data scientists, a data analyst, but hyper specialized roles. If, if, let's say I have, you know, 30 or 40, and one of 'em is an SD wan, you know, security product. Yeah. I'm best of breed an SD wan. Okay, great. Palo Alto comes in as you, you pointed out, I'm gonna help you with your procurement side. Are there hyper specialized individuals that are aligned to that? And how that's kind of part A and B, how, assuming that's the case, how does that integration, you know, carry through to the business case? So >>Obviously there are specializations, this is the, and, and cybersecurity is really important. And so there, this is why there had, there's this tendency in the past to head toward, well I have this problem, so who's the best at solving this one problem? And if you only had one problem to solve, you would go find the specialist. The, the, the, the challenge becomes, well, what do you have a hundred problems to solve? I is the right answer, a hundred specialized solutions for your a hundred problems. And what what I think is missing in this approach is, is understanding that almost every problem that needs to be solved is interconnected with other problems to be solved. It's that interconnectedness of the problems where all of a sudden, so, so you mentioned SD wan. Okay, great. I have Estee wan, I need it. Well what are you connecting SD WAN to? >>Well, ideally our view is you would connect SD WAN and branch to the cloud. Well, would you run in the cloud? Well, in our case, we can take our SD wan, connect it to Prisma access, which is our cloud security solution, and we can natively integrate those two things together such that when you use 'em together, way easier. Right? All of a sudden we took what seemed like two separate problems. We said, no, actually these problems are related and we can deliver a solution where those, those things are actually brought together. And that's just one simple example, but you could, you could extend that across a lot of these other areas. And so that's the difference. And that's how the, the, the mindset shift that is happening. And, and I I was gonna say needs to happen, but it's starting to happen. I'm talking to customers where they're telling me this as opposed to me telling them. >>So when you walk around the floor here, there's a visual, it's called a day in the life of a fuel member. And basically what it has, it's got like, I dunno, six or seven different roles or personas, you know, one is management, one is a network engineer, one's a coder, and it gives you an X and an O. And it says, okay, put the X on things that you spend your time doing, put the o on things that you wanna spend your time doing a across all different sort of activities that a SecOps pro would do. There's Xs and O's in every one of 'em. You know, to your point, there's so much overlap going on. This was really difficult to discern, you know, any kind of consistent pattern because it, it, it, unlike the hyper specialization and data pipelines that I just described, it, it's, it's not, it, it, there's way more overlap between those, those specialization roles. >>And there's a, there's a second challenge that, that I've observed and that we are, we've, we've been trying to solve this and now I'd say we've become, started to become a lot more purposeful in, in, in trying to solve this, which is, I believe cybersecurity, in order for cyber security vendors to become partners, we actually have to start to become more opinionated. We actually have to start, guys >>Are pretty opinionated. >>Well, yes, but, but the industry large. So yes, we're opinionated. We build these products, but that have, that have our, I'll call our opinions built into it, and then we, we sell the, the product and then, and then what happens? Customer says, great, thank you for the product. I'm going to deploy it however I want to, which is fine. Obviously it's their choice at the end of the day, but we actually should start to exert an opinion to say, well, here's what we would recommend, here's why we would recommend that. Here's how we envisioned it providing the most value to you. And actually starting to build that into the products themselves so that they start to guide the customer toward these outcomes as opposed to just saying, here's a product, good luck. >>What's, what's the customer lifecycle, not lifecycle, but really kind of that, that collaboration, like it's one thing to, to have products that you're saying that have opinions to be able to inform customers how to deploy, how to use, but where is their feedback in this cycle of product development? >>Oh, look, my, this, this is, this is my life. I'm, this is, this is why I'm here. This is like, you know, all day long I'm meeting with customers and, and I share what we're doing. But, but it's, it's a, it's a 50 50, I'm half the time I'm listening as well to understand what they're trying to do, what they're trying to accomplish, and how, what they need us to do better in order to help them solve the problem. So the, the, and, and so my entire organization is oriented around not just telling customers, here's what we did, but listening and understanding and bringing that feedback in and constantly making the products better. That's, that's the, the main way in which we do this. Now there's a second way, which is we also allow our products to be customized. You know, I can say, here's our best practices, we see it, but then allowing our customer to, to customize that and tailor it to their environment, because there are going to be uniquenesses for different customers in parti, we need more complex environments. Explain >>Why fire firewalls won't go away >>From your perspective. Oh, Nikesh actually did a great job of explaining this yesterday, and although he gave me credit for it, so this is like a, a circular kind of reference here. But if you think about the firewalls slightly more abstract, and you basically say a NextGen firewalls job is to inspect every connection in order to make sure the connection should be allowed. And then if it is allowed to make sure that it's secure, >>Which that is the definition of an NextGen firewall, by the way, exactly what I just said. Now what you noticed is, I didn't describe it as a hardware device, right? It can be delivered in hardware because there are environments where you need super high throughput, low latency, guess what? Hardware is the best way of delivering that functionality. There's other use cases cloud where you can't, you, you can't ship hardware to a cloud provider and say, can you install this hardware in front of my cloud? No, no, no. You deployed in a software. So you take that same functionality, you instantly in a software, then you have other use cases, branch offices, remote workforce, et cetera, where you say, actually, I just want it delivered from the cloud. This is what sassy is. So when I, when I look at and say, the firewall's not going away, what, what, what I see is the functionality needed is not only not going away, it's actually expanding. But how we deliver it is going to be across these three form factors. And then the customer's going to decide how they need to intermix these form factors for their environment. >>We put forth this notion of super cloud a while about a year ago. And the idea being you're gonna leverage the hyperscale infrastructure and you're gonna build a, a, you're gonna solve a common problem across clouds and even on-prem, super cloud above the cloud. Not Superman, but super as in Latin. But it turned into this sort of, you know, superlative, which is fun. But the, my, my question to you is, is, is, is Palo Alto essentially building a common cross-cloud on-prem, presumably out to the edge consistent experience that we would call a super cloud? >>Yeah, I don't know that we've ever used the term surfer cloud to describe it. Oh, you don't have to, but yeah. But yes, based on how you describe it, absolutely. And it has three main benefits that I describe to customers all the time. The first is the end user experience. So imagine your employee, and you might work from the office, you might work from home, you might work while from, from traveling and hotels and conferences. And, and by the way, in one day you might actually work from all of those places. So, so the first part is the end user experience becomes way better when it doesn't matter where they're working from. They always get the same experience, huge benefit from productivity perspective, no second benefit security operations. You think about the, the people who are actually administering these policies and analyzing the security events. >>Imagine how much better it is for them when it's all common and consistent across everywhere that has to happen. Cloud, on-prem branch, remote workforce, et cetera. So there's a operational benefit that is super valuable. Third, security benefit. Imagine if in this, this platform-based approach, if we come out with some new amazing innovation that is able to detect and block, you know, new types of attacks, guess what, we can deliver that across hardware, software, and sassi uniformly and keep it all up to date. So from a security perspective, way better than trying to figure out, okay, there's some new technology, you know, does my hardware provider have that technology or not? Does my soft provider? So it's bringing that in to one place. >>From a developer perspective, is there a, a, a PAs layer, forgive me super PAs, that a allows the developers to have a common experience across irrespective of physical location with the explicit purpose of serving the objective of your platform. >>So normally when I think of the context of developers, I'm thinking of the context of, of the people who are building the applications that are being deployed. And those applications may be deployed in a data center, increasing the data centers, depending private clouds might be deployed into, into public cloud. It might even be hybrid in nature. And so if you think about what the developer wants, the developer actually wants to not have to think about security, quite frankly. Yeah. They want to think about how do I develop the functionality I need as quickly as possible with the highest quality >>Possible, but they are being forced to think about it more and more. Well, but anyway, I didn't mean to >>Interrupt you. No, it's a, it is a good, it's a, it's, it's a great point. The >>Well we're trying to do is we're trying to enable our security capabilities to work in a way that actually enables what the developer wants that actually allows them to develop faster that actually allows them to focus on the things they want to focus. And, and the way we do that is by actually surfacing the security information that they need to know in the tools that they use as opposed to trying to bring them to our tools. So you think about this, so our customer is a security customer. Yet in the application development lifecycle, the developer is often the user. So we, we we're selling, we're so providing a solution to security and then we're enabling them to surface it in the developer tools. And by, by doing this, we actually make life easier for the developers such that they're not actually thinking about security so much as they're just saying, oh, I pulled down the wrong open source package, it's outdated, it has vulnerabilities. I was notified the second I did it, and I was told which one I should pull down. So I pulled down the right one. Now, if you're a developer, do you think that's security getting your way? Not at all. No. If you're a developer, you're thinking, thank god, thank you, thank, thank you. Yeah. You told me at a point where it was easy as opposed to waiting a week or two and then telling me where it's gonna be really hard to fix it. Yeah. Nothing >>More than, so maybe be talking to Terraform or some other hash corp, you know, environment. I got it. Okay. >>Absolutely. >>We're 30 seconds. We're almost out of time. Sure. But I'd love to get your snapshot. Here we are at the end of calendar 2022. What are you, we know you're optimistic in this threat landscape, which we're gonna see obviously more dynamics next year. What kind of nuggets can you drop about what we might hear and see in 23? >>You're gonna see across everything. We do a lot more focus on the use of AI and machine learning to drive automated outcomes for our customers. And you're gonna see us across everything we do. And that's going to be the big transformation. It'll be a multi-year transformation, but you're gonna see significant progress in the next 12 months. All >>Right, well >>What will be the sign of that progress? If I had to make a prediction, which >>I'm better security with less effort. >>Okay, great. I feel like that's, we can measure that. I >>Feel, I feel like that's a mic drop moment. Lee, it's been great having you on the program. Thank you for walking us through such great detail. What's going on in the organization, what you're doing for customers, where you're meeting, how you're meeting the developers, where they are. We'll have to have you back. There's just, just too much to unpack. Thank you both so much. Actually, our pleasure for Lee Cler and Dave Valante. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching The Cube Live from Palo Alto Networks Ignite 22, the Cube, the leader in live, emerging and enterprise tech coverage.

>>Hey everyone, welcome to the Cube's coverage of AWS Reinvent 2022. Lisa Martin here with you with Subaru ier, one of our alumni who's now the CEO of Aerospike. Sabu. Great to have you on the program. Thank you for joining us. >>Great as always, to be on the cube. Luisa, good to meet you. >>So, you know, every company these days has got to be a data company, whether it's a retailer, a manufacturer, a grocer, a automotive company. But for a lot of companies, data is underutilized, yet a huge asset that is value added. Why do you think companies are struggling so much to make data a value added asset? >>Well, you know, we, we see this across the board when I talk to customers and prospects. There's a desire from the business and from it actually to leverage data to really fuel newer applications, newer services, newer business lines, if you will, for companies. I think the struggle is one, I think one the, you know, the plethora of data that is created, you know, surveys say that over the next three years data is gonna be, you know, by 2025, around 175 zetabytes, right? A hundred and zetabytes of data is gonna be created. And that's really a, a, a growth of north of 30% year over year. But the more important, and the interesting thing is the real time component of that data is actually growing at, you know, 35% cagr. And what enterprises desire is decisions that are made in real time or near real time. >>And a lot of the challenges that do exist today is that either the infrastructure that enterprises have in place was never built to actually manipulate data in real time. The second is really the ability to actually put something in place which can handle spikes yet be cost efficient if you'll, so you can build for really peak loads, but then it's very expensive to operate that particular service at normal loads. So how do you build something which actually works for you, for both you, both users, so to speak? And the last point that we see out there is even if you're able to, you know, bring all that data, you don't have the processing capability to run through that data. So as a result, most enterprises struggle with one, capturing the data, you know, making decisions from it in real time and really operating it at the cost point that they need to operate it at. >>You know, you bring up a great point with respect to real time data access. And I think one of the things that we've learned the last couple of years is that access to real time data, it's not a nice to have anymore. It's business critical for organizations in any industry. Talk about that as one of the challenges that organizations are facing. >>Yeah. When, when, when we started Aerospike, right when the company started, it started with the premise that data is gonna grow, number one, exponentially. Two, when applications open up to the internet, there's gonna be a flood of users and demands on those applications. And that was true primarily when we started the company in the ad tech vertical. So ad tech was the first vertical where there was a lot of data both on the supply side and the demand side from an inventory of ads that were available. And on the other hand, they had like microseconds or milliseconds in which they could make a decision on which ad to put in front of you and I so that we would click or engage with that particular ad. But over the last three to five years, what we've seen is as digitization has actually permeated every industry out there, the need to harness data in real time is pretty much present in every industry. >>Whether that's retail, whether that's financial services, telecommunications, e-commerce, gaming and entertainment. Every industry has a desire. One, the innovative companies, the small companies rather, are innovating at a pace and standing up new businesses to compete with the larger companies in each of these verticals. And the larger companies don't wanna be left behind. So they're standing up their own competing services or getting into new lines of business that really harness and are driven by real time data. So this compelling pressures, one, the customer exp you know, customer experience is paramount and we as customers expect answers in, you know, an instant in real time. And on the other hand, the way they make decisions is based on a large data set because you know, larger data sets actually propel better decisions. So there's competing pressures here, which essentially drive the need. One from a business perspective, two from a customer perspective to harness all of this data in real time. So that's what's driving an inces need to actually make decisions in real or near real time. >>You know, I think one of the things that's been in short supply over the last couple of years is patients we do expect as consumers, whether we're in our business lives, our personal lives that we're going to be getting, be given information and data that's relevant, it's personal to help us make those real time decisions. So having access to real time data is really business critical for organizations across any industries. Talk about some of the main capabilities that modern data applications and data platforms need to have. What are some of the key capabilities of a modern data platform that need to be delivered to meet demanding customer expectations? >>So, you know, going back to your initial question Lisa, around why is data really a high value but underutilized or underleveraged asset? One of the reasons we see is a lot of the data platforms that, you know, some of these applications were built on have been then around for a decade plus and they were never built for the needs of today, which is really driving a lot of data and driving insight in real time from a lot of data. So there are four major capabilities that we see that are essential ingredients of any modern data platform. One is really the ability to, you know, operate at unlimited scale. So what we mean by that is really the ability to scale from gigabytes to even petabytes without any degradation in performance or latency or throughput. The second is really, you know, predictable performance. So can you actually deliver predictable performance as your data size grows or your throughput grows or your concurrent user on that application of service grows? >>It's really easy to build an application that operates at low scale or low throughput or low concurrency, but performance usually starts degrading as you start scaling one of these attributes. The third thing is the ability to operate and always on globally resilient application. And that requires a, a really robust data platform that can be up on a five, nine basis globally, can support global distribution because a lot of these applications have global users. And the last point is, goes back to my first answer, which is, can you operate all of this at a cost point? Which is not prohibitive, but it makes sense from a TCO perspective. Cuz a lot of times what we see is people make choices of data platforms and as ironically their service or applications become more successful and more users join their journey, the revenue starts going up, the user base starts going up, but the cost basis starts crossing over the revenue and they're losing money on the service, ironically, as the service becomes more popular. So really unlimited scale, predictable performance always on, on a globally resilient basis and low tco. These are the four essential capabilities of any modern data platform. >>So then talk to me with those as the four main core functionalities of a modern data platform. How does aerospace deliver that? >>So we were built, as I said, from the from day one to operate at unlimited scale and deliver predictable performance. And then over the years as we work with customers, we build this incredible high availability capability which helps us deliver the always on, you know, operations. So we have customers who are, who have been on the platform 10 years with no downtime for example, right? So we are talking about an amazing continuum of high availability that we provide for customers who operate these, you know, globally resilient services. The key to our innovation here is what we call the hybrid memory architecture. So, you know, going a little bit technically deep here, essentially what we built out in our architecture is the ability on each node or each server to treat a bank of SSDs or solid state devices as essentially extended memory. So you're getting memory performance, but you're accessing these SSDs, you're not paying memory prices, but you're getting memory performance as a result of that. >>You can attach a lot more data to each node or each server in your distributed cluster. And when you kind of scale that across basically a distributed cluster you can do with aerospike, the same things at 60 to 80% lower server count and as a result 60 to 80% lower TCO compared to some of the other options that are available in the market. Then basically, as I said, that's the key kind of starting point to the innovation. We layer around capabilities like, you know, replication change, data notification, you know, synchronous and asynchronous replication. The ability to actually stretch a single cluster across multiple regions. So for example, if you're operating a global service, you can have a single aerospace cluster with one node in San Francisco, one northern New York, another one in London. And this would be basically seamlessly operating. So that, you know, this is strongly consistent. >>Very few no SQL data platforms are strongly consistent or if they are strongly consistent, they will actually suffer performance degradation. And what strongly consistent means is, you know, all your data is always available, it's guaranteed to be available, there is no data lost anytime. So in this configuration that I talked about, if the node in London goes down, your application still continues to operate, right? Your users see no kind of downtime and you know, when London comes up, it rejoins the cluster and everything is back to kind of the way it was before, you know, London left the cluster so to speak. So the op, the ability to do this globally resilient, highly available kind of model is really, really powerful. A lot of our customers actually use that kind of a scenario and we offer other deployment scenarios from a higher availability perspective. So everything starts with HMA or hybrid memory architecture and then we start building out a lot of these other capabilities around the platform. >>And then over the years, what our customers have guided us to do is as they're putting together a modern kind of data infrastructure, we don't live in a silo. So aerospace gets deployed with other technologies like streaming technologies or analytics technologies. So we built connectors into Kafka, pulsar, so that as you're ingesting data from a variety of data sources, you can ingest them at very high ingest speeds and store them persistently into Aerospike. Once the data is in Aerospike, you can actually run spark jobs across that data in a, in a multithreaded parallel fashion to get really insight from that data at really high, high throughput and high speed, >>High throughput, high speed, incredibly important, especially as today's landscape is increasingly distributed. Data centers, multiple public clouds, edge IOT devices, the workforce embracing more and more hybrid these days. How are you ex helping customers to extract more value from data while also lowering costs? Go into some customer examples cause I know you have some great ones. >>Yeah, you know, I think we have, we have built an amazing set of customers and customers actually use us for some really mission critical applications. So, you know, before I get into specific customer examples, let me talk to you about some of kind of the use cases which we see out there. We see a lot of aerospace being used in fraud detection. We see us being used in recommendations and since we use get used in customer data profiles or customer profiles, customer 360 stores, you know, multiplayer gaming and entertainment, these are kind of the repeated use case digital payments. We power most of the digital payment systems across the globe. Specific example from a, from a specific example perspective, the first one I would love to talk about is PayPal. So if you use PayPal today, then you know when you actually paying somebody your transaction is, you know, being sent through aero spike to really decide whether this is a fraudulent transaction or not. >>And when you do that, you know, you and I as a customer not gonna wait around for 10 seconds for PayPal to say yay or me, we expect, you know, the decision to be made in an instant. So we are powering that fraud detection engine at PayPal for every transaction that goes through PayPal before us, you know, PayPal was missing out on about 2% of their SLAs, which was essentially millions of dollars, which they were losing because, you know, they were letting transactions go through and taking the risk that it, it's not a fraudulent transaction with the aerospace. They can now actually get a much better sla and the data set on which they compute the fraud score has gone up by, you know, several factors. So by 30 x if you will. So not only has the data size that is powering the fraud engine actually grown up 30 x with Aerospike. Yeah. But they're actually making decisions in an instant for, you know, 99.95% of their transactions. So that's, >>And that's what we expect as consumers, right? We want to know that there's fraud detection on the swipe regardless of who we're interacting with. >>Yes. And so that's a, that's a really powerful use case and you know, it's, it's a great customer, great customer success story. The other one I would talk about is really Wayfair, right? From retail and you know, from e-commerce. So everybody knows Wayfair global leader in really, you know, online home furnishings and they use us to power their recommendations engine and you know, it's basically if you're purchasing this, people who bought this but also bought these five other things, so on and so forth, they have actually seen the card size at checkout go by up to 30% as a result of actually powering their recommendations in G by through Aerospike. And they, they were able to do this by reducing the server count by nine x. So on one ninth of the servers that were there before aerospace, they're now powering their recommendation engine and seeing card size checkout go up by 30%. Really, really powerful in terms of the business outcome and what we are able to, you know, drive at Wayfair >>Hugely powerful as a business outcome. And that's also what the consumer wants. The consumer is expecting these days to have a very personalized, relevant experience that's gonna show me if I bought this, show me something else that's related to that. We have this expectation that needs to be really fueled by technology. >>Exactly. And you know, another great example you asked about, you know, customer stories, Adobe, who doesn't know Adobe, you know, they, they're on a, they're on a mission to deliver the best customer experience that they can and they're talking about, you know, great customer 360 experience at scale and they're modernizing their entire edge compute infrastructure to support this. With Aerospike going to Aerospike, basically what they have seen is their throughput go up by 70%, their cost has been reduced by three x. So essentially doing it at one third of the cost while their annual data growth continues at, you know, about north of 30%. So not only is their data growing, they're able to actually reduce their cost to actually deliver this great customer experience by one third to one third and continue to deliver great customer 360 experience at scale. Really, really powerful example of how you deliver Customer 360 in a world which is dynamic and you know, on a dataset which is constantly growing at north, north of 30% in this case. >>Those are three great examples, PayPal, Wayfair, Adobe talking about, especially with Wayfair when you talk about increasing their cart checkout sizes, but also with Adobe increasing throughput by over 70%. I'm looking at my notes here. While data is growing at 32%, that's something that every organization has to contend with data growth is continuing to scale and scale and scale. >>Yep. I, I'll give you a fun one here. So, you know, you may not have heard about this company, it's called Dream 11 and it's a company based out of India, but it's a very, you know, it's a fun story because it's the world's largest fantasy sports platform and you know, India is a nation which is cricket crazy. So you know, when, when they have their premier league going on, you know, there's millions of users logged onto the dream alone platform building their fantasy lead teams and you know, playing on that particular platform, it has a hundred million users, a hundred million plus users on the platform, 5.5 million concurrent users and they have been growing at 30%. So they are considered a, an amazing success story in, in terms of what they have accomplished and the way they have architected their platform to operate at scale. And all of that is really powered by aerospace where think about that they are able to deliver all of this and support a hundred million users, 5.5 million concurrent users all with you know, 99 plus percent of their transactions completing in less than one millisecond. Just incredible success story. Not a brand that is you know, world renowned but at least you know from a what we see out there, it's an amazing success story of operating at scale. >>Amazing success story, huge business outcomes. Last question for you as we're almost out of time is talk a little bit about Aerospike aws, the partnership GRAVITON two better together. What are you guys doing together there? >>Great partnership. AWS has multiple layers in terms of partnerships. So you know, we engage with AWS at the executive level. They plan out, really roll out of new instances in partnership with us, making sure that, you know, those instance types work well for us. And then we just released support for Aerospike on the graviton platform and we just announced a benchmark of Aerospike running on graviton on aws. And what we see out there is with the benchmark, a 1.6 x improvement in price performance and you know, about 18% increase in throughput while maintaining a 27% reduction in cost, you know, on graviton. So this is an amazing story from a price performance perspective, performance per wat for greater energy efficiencies, which basically a lot of our customers are starting to kind of talk to us about leveraging this to further meet their sustainability target. So great story from Aero Aerospike and aws, not just from a partnership perspective on a technology and an executive level, but also in terms of what joint outcomes we are able to deliver for our customers. >>And it sounds like a great sustainability story. I wish we had more time so we would talk about this, but thank you so much for talking about the main capabilities of a modern data platform, what's needed, why, and how you guys are delivering that. We appreciate your insights and appreciate your time. >>Thank you very much. I mean, if, if folks are at reinvent next week or this week, come on and see us at our booth. We are in the data analytics pavilion. You can find us pretty easily. Would love to talk to you. >>Perfect. We'll send them there. So Ira, thank you so much for joining me on the program today. We appreciate your insights. >>Thank you Lisa. >>I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching The Cubes coverage of AWS Reinvent 2022. Thanks for watching.