(bright music) >> Hello everyone. Welcome to theCUBE's coverage of AWS re:Invent 22. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. Got some great coverage here talking about software supply chain and sustainability in the cloud. We've got a great conversation. Gunnar Hellekson, vice president and general manager at Red Hat Enterprise Linux and Business Unit of Red Hat. Thanks for coming on. And Adnan Ijaz, director of product management of commercial software services, AWS. Gentlemen, thanks for joining me today. >> It's a pleasure. (Adnan speaks indistinctly) >> You know, the hottest topic coming out of Cloud Native developer communities is slide chain software sustainability. This is a huge issue. As open source continues to power away and fund and grow this next generation modern development environment, you know, supply chain, you know, sustainability is a huge discussion because you got to check things out, what's in the code. Okay, open source is great, but now we got to commercialize it. This is the topic, Gunnar, let's get in with you. What are you seeing here and what's some of the things that you're seeing around the sustainability piece of it? Because, you know, containers, Kubernetes, we're seeing that that run time really dominate this new abstraction layer, cloud scale. What's your thoughts? >> Yeah, so I, it's interesting that the, you know, so Red Hat's been doing this for 20 years, right? Making open source safe to consume in the enterprise. And there was a time when in order to do that you needed to have a long term life cycle and you needed to be very good at remediating security vulnerabilities. And that was kind of, that was the bar that you had to climb over. Nowadays with the number of vulnerabilities coming through, what people are most worried about is, kind of, the providence of the software and making sure that it has been vetted and it's been safe, and that things that you get from your vendor should be more secure than things that you've just downloaded off of GitHub, for example. Right? And that's a place where Red Hat's very comfortable living, right? Because we've been doing it for 20 years. I think there's another aspect to this supply chain question as well, especially with the pandemic. You know, we've got these supply chains have been jammed up. The actual physical supply chains have been jammed up. And the two of these issues actually come together, right? Because as we go through the pandemic, we've got these digital transformation efforts, which are in large part, people creating software in order to manage better their physical supply chain problems. And so as part of that digital transformation, you have another supply chain problem, which is the software supply chain problem, right? And so these two things kind of merge on these as people are trying to improve the performance of transportation systems, logistics, et cetera. Ultimately, it all boils down to, both supply chain problems actually boil down to a software problem. It's very interesting. >> Well, that is interesting. I want to just follow up on that real quick if you don't mind. Because if you think about the convergence of the software and physical world, you know, that's, you know, IOT and also hybridcloud kind of plays into that at scale, this opens up more surface area for attacks, especially when you're under a lot of pressure. This is where, you know, you have a service area on the physical side and you have constraints there. And obviously the pandemic causes problems. But now you've got the software side. How are you guys handling that? Can you just share a little bit more of how you guys looking at that with Red Hat? What's the customer challenge? Obviously, you know, skills gaps is one, but, like, that's a convergence at the same time more security problems. >> Yeah, yeah, that's right. And certainly the volume of, if we just look at security vulnerabilities themselves, just the volume of security vulnerabilities has gone up considerably as more people begin using the software. And as the software becomes more important to, kind of, critical infrastructure. More eyeballs around it and so we're uncovering more problems, which is kind of, that's okay, that's how the world works. And so certainly the number of remediations required every year has gone up. But also the customer expectations, as I mentioned before, the customer expectations have changed, right? People want to be able to show to their auditors and to their regulators that no, in fact, I can show the providence of the software that I'm using. I didn't just download something random off the internet. I actually have like, you know, adults paying attention to how the software gets put together. And it's still, honestly, it's still very early days. I think as an industry, I think we're very good at managing, identifying remediating vulnerabilities in the aggregate. We're pretty good at that. I think things are less clear when we talk about, kind of, the management of that supply chain, proving the providence, and creating a resilient supply chain for software. We have lots of tools, but we don't really have lots of shared expectations. And so it's going to be interesting over the next few years, I think we're going to have more rules are going to come out. I see NIST has already published some of them. And as these new rules come out, the whole industry is going to have to kind of pull together and really rally around some of this shared understanding so we can all have shared expectations and we can all speak the same language when we're talking about this problem. >> That's awesome. Adnan, Amazon web service is obviously the largest cloud platform out there. You know, the pandemic, even post pandemic, some of these supply chain issues, whether it's physical or software, you're also an outlet for that. So if someone can't buy hardware or something physical, they can always get to the cloud. You guys have great network compute and whatnot and you got thousands of ISVs across the globe. How are you helping customers with this supply chain problem? Because whether it's, you know, I need to get in my networking gears and delay, I'm going to go to the cloud and get help there. Or whether it's knowing the workloads and what's going on inside them with respect to open source. 'Cause you've got open source, which is kind of an external forcing function. You've got AWS and you got, you know, physical compute stores, networking, et cetera. How are you guys helping customers with the supply chain challenge, which could be an opportunity? >> Yeah, thanks John. I think there are multiple layers to that. At the most basic level, we are helping customers by abstracting away all these data center constructs that they would have to worry about if they were running their own data centers. They would have to figure out how the networking gear, you talk about, you know, having the right compute, right physical hardware. So by moving to the cloud, at least they're delegating that problem to AWS and letting us manage and making sure that we have an instance available for them whenever they want it. And if they want to scale it, the capacity is there for them to use. Now then, so we kind of give them space to work on the second part of the problem, which is building their own supply chain solutions. And we work with all kinds of customers here at AWS from all different industry segments, automotive, retail, manufacturing. And you know, you see the complexity of the supply chain with all those moving pieces, like hundreds and thousands of moving pieces, it's very daunting. And then on the other hand, customers need more better services. So you need to move fast. So you need to build your agility in the supply chain itself. And that is where, you know, Red Hat and AWS come together. Where we can enable customers to build their supply chain solutions on platforms like Red Hat Enterprise Linux RHEL or Red Hat OpenShift on AWS, we call it ROSA. And the benefit there is that you can actually use the services that are relevant for the supply chain solutions like Amazon managed blockchain, you know, SageMaker. So you can actually build predictive analytics, you can improve forecasting, you can make sure that you have solutions that help you identify where you can cut costs. And so those are some of the ways we're helping customers, you know, figure out how they actually want to deal with the supply chain challenges that we're running into in today's world. >> Yeah, and you know, you mentioned sustainability outside of software sustainability, you know, as people move to the cloud, we've reported on SiliconANGLE here in theCUBE, that it's better to have the sustainability with the cloud because then the data centers aren't using all that energy too. So there's also all kinds of sustainability advantages. Gunnar, because this is kind of how your relationship with Amazon's expanded. You mentioned ROSA, which is Red Hat, you know, on OpenShift, on AWS. This is interesting because one of the biggest discussions is skills gap, but we were also talking about the fact that the humans are a huge part of the talent value. In other words, the humans still need to be involved. And having that relationship with managed services and Red Hat, this piece becomes one of those things that's not talked about much, which is the talent is increasing in value, the humans, and now you got managed services on the cloud. So we'll look at scale and human interaction. Can you share, you know, how you guys are working together on this piece? 'Cause this is interesting, 'cause this kind of brings up the relationship of that operator or developer. >> Yeah, yeah. So I think there's, so I think about this in a few dimensions. First is that it's difficult to find a customer who is not talking about automation at some level right now. And obviously you can automate the processes and the physical infrastructure that you already have, that's using tools like Ansible, right? But I think that combining it with the elasticity of a solution like AWS, so you combine the automation with kind of elastic and converting a lot of the capital expenses into operating expenses, that's a great way actually to save labor, right? So instead of like racking hard drives, you can have somebody do something a little more like, you know, more valuable work, right? And so, okay, but that gives you a platform. And then what do you do with that platform? You know, if you've got your systems automated and you've got this kind of elastic infrastructure underneath you, what you do on top of it is really interesting. So a great example of this is the collaboration that we had with running the RHEL workstation on AWS. So you might think, like, well why would anybody want to run a workstation on a cloud? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Unless you consider how complex it is to set up, if you have, the use case here is like industrial workstations, right? So it's animators, people doing computational fluid dynamics, things like this. So these are industries that are extremely data heavy. Workstations have very large hardware requirements, often with accelerated GPUs and things like this. That is an extremely expensive thing to install on-premise anywhere. And if the pandemic taught us anything, it's if you have a bunch of very expensive talent and they all have to work from home, it is very difficult to go provide them with, you know, several tens of thousands of dollars worth of workstation equipment. And so combine the RHEL workstation with the AWS infrastructure and now all that workstation computational infrastructure is available on demand and available right next to the considerable amount of data that they're analyzing or animating or working on. So it's a really interesting, it was actually, this is an idea that was actually born with the pandemic. >> Yeah. >> And it's kind of a combination of everything that we're talking about, right? It's the supply chain challenges of the customer, it's the lack of talent, making sure that people are being put to their best and highest use. And it's also having this kind of elastic, I think, OpEx heavy infrastructure as opposed to a CapEx heavy infrastructure. >> That's a great example. I think that illustrates to me what I love about cloud right now is that you can put stuff in the cloud and then flex what you need, when you need it, in the cloud rather than either ingress or egress of data. You just get more versatility around the workload needs, whether it's more compute or more storage or other high level services. This is kind of where this next gen cloud is going. This is where customers want to go once their workloads are up and running. How do you simplify all this and how do you guys look at this from a joint customer perspective? Because that example I think will be something that all companies will be working on, which is put it in the cloud and flex to whatever the workload needs and put it closer to the compute. I want to put it there. If I want to leverage more storage and networking, well, I'll do that too. It's not one thing, it's got to flex around. How are you guys simplifying this? >> Yeah, I think, so, I'll give my point of view and then I'm very curious to hear what Adnan has to say about it. But I think about it in a few dimensions, right? So there is a technically, like, any solution that Adnan's team and my team want to put together needs to be kind of technically coherent, right? Things need to work well together. But that's not even most of the job. Most of the job is actually ensuring an operational consistency and operational simplicity, so that everything is, the day-to-day operations of these things kind of work well together. And then also, all the way to things like support and even acquisition, right? Making sure that all the contracts work together, right? It's a really... So when Adnan and I think about places of working together, it's very rare that we're just looking at a technical collaboration. It's actually a holistic collaboration across support, acquisition, as well as all the engineering that we have to do. >> Adnan, your view on how you're simplifying it with Red Hat for your joint customers making collaborations? >> Yeah, Gunnar covered it well. I think the benefit here is that Red Hat has been the leading Linux distribution provider. So they have a lot of experience. AWS has been the leading cloud provider. So we have both our own points of view, our own learning from our respective set of customers. So the way we try to simplify and bring these things together is working closely. In fact, I sometimes joke internally that if you see Gunnar and my team talking to each other on a call, you cannot really tell who belongs to which team. Because we're always figuring out, okay, how do we simplify discount experience? How do we simplify programs? How do we simplify go to market? How do we simplify the product pieces? So it's really bringing our learning and share our perspective to the table and then really figure out how do we actually help customers make progress. ROSA that we talked about is a great example of that, you know, together we figured out, hey, there is a need for customers to have this capability in AWS and we went out and built it. So those are just some of the examples in how both teams are working together to simplify the experience, make it complete, make it more coherent. >> Great, that's awesome. Next question is really around how you help organizations with the sustainability piece, how to support them simplifying it. But first, before we get into that, what is the core problem around this sustainability discussion we're talking about here, supply chain sustainability, what is the core challenge? Can you both share your thoughts on what that problem is and what the solution looks like and then we can get into advice? >> Yeah. Well from my point of view, it's, I think, you know, one of the lessons of the last three years is every organization is kind of taking a careful look at how resilient it is, or I should say, every organization learned exactly how resilient it was, right? And that comes from both the physical challenges and the logistics challenges that everyone had, the talent challenges you mentioned earlier. And of course the software challenges, you know, as everyone kind of embarks on this digital transformation journey that we've all been talking about. And I think, so I really frame it as resilience, right? And resilience at bottom is really about ensuring that you have options and that you have choices. The more choices you have, the more options you have, the more resilient you and your organization is going to be. And so I know that's how I approach the market. I'm pretty sure that's how Adnan is approaching the market, is ensuring that we are providing as many options as possible to customers so that they can assemble the right pieces to create a solution that works for their particular set of challenges or their unique set of challenges and unique context. Adnan, does that sound about right to you? >> Yeah, I think you covered it well. I can speak to another aspect of sustainability, which is becoming increasingly top of mind for our customers. Like, how do they build products and services and solutions and whether it's supply chain or anything else which is sustainable, which is for the long term good of the planet. And I think that is where we have also been very intentional and focused in how we design our data center, how we actually build our cooling system so that those are energy efficient. You know, we are on track to power all our operations with renewable energy by 2025, which is five years ahead of our initial commitment. And perhaps the most obvious example of all of this is our work with ARM processors, Graviton3, where, you know, we are building our own chip to make sure that we are designing energy efficiency into the process. And you know, the ARM Graviton3 processor chips, they are about 60% more energy efficient compared to some of the CD6 comparable. So all those things that also we are working on in making sure that whatever our customers build on our platform is long term sustainable. So that's another dimension of how we are working that into our platform. >> That's awesome. This is a great conversation. You know, the supply chain is on both sides, physical and software. You're starting to see them come together in great conversations. And certainly moving workloads to the cloud and running them more efficiently will help on the sustainability side, in my opinion. Of course, you guys talked about that and we've covered it. But now you start getting into how to refactor, and this is a big conversation we've been having lately is as you not just lift and shift, but replatform it and refactor, customers are seeing great advantages on this. So I have to ask you guys, how are you helping customers and organizations support sustainability and simplify the complex environment that has a lot of potential integrations? Obviously API's help of course, but that's the kind of baseline. What's the advice that you give customers? 'Cause you know, it can look complex and it becomes complex, but there's an answer here. What's your thoughts? >> Yeah, I think, so whenever I get questions like this from customers, the first thing I guide them to is, we talked earlier about this notion of consistency and how important that is. One way to solve the problem is to create an entirely new operational model, an entirely new acquisition model, and an entirely new stack of technologies in order to be more sustainable. That is probably not in the cards for most folks. What they want to do is have their existing estate and they're trying to introduce sustainability into the work that they are already doing. They don't need to build another silo in order to create sustainability, right? And so there has to be some common threads, there has to be some common platforms across the existing estate and your more sustainable estate, right? And so things like Red Hat Enterprise Linux, which can provide this kind of common, not just a technical substrate, but a common operational substrate on which you can build these solutions. If you have a common platform on which you are building solutions, whether it's RHEL or whether it's OpenShift or any of our other platforms, that creates options for you underneath. So that in some cases maybe you need to run things on-premises, some things you need to run in the cloud, but you don't have to profoundly change how you work when you're moving from one place to another. >> Adnan, what's your thoughts on the simplification? >> Yeah, I mean, when you talk about replatforming and refactoring, it is a daunting undertaking, you know, especially in today's fast paced world. But the good news is you don't have to do it by yourself. Customers don't have to do it on their own. You know, together AWS and Red Hat, we have our rich partner ecosystem, you know, AWS has over 100,000 partners that can help you take that journey, the transformation journey. And within AWS and working with our partners like Red Hat, we make sure that we have- In my mind, there are really three big pillars that you have to have to make sure that customers can successfully re-platform, refactor their applications to the modern cloud architecture. You need to have the rich set of services and tools that meet their different scenarios, different use cases. Because no one size fits all. You have to have the right programs because sometimes customers need those incentives, they need those, you know, that help in the first step. And last but not least, they need training. So all of that, we try to cover that as we work with our customers, work with our partners. And that is where, you know, together we try to help customers take that step, which is a challenging step to take. >> Yeah, you know, it's great to talk to you guys, both leaders in your field. Obviously Red Hats, I remember the days back when I was provisioning and loading OSs on hardware with CDs, if you remember those days, Gunnar. But now with the high level services, if you look at this year's reinvent, and this is kind of my final question for the segment is, that we'll get your reaction to, last year we talked about higher level service. I sat down with Adam Saleski, we talked about that. If you look at what's happened this year, you're starting to see people talk about their environment as their cloud. So Amazon has the gift of the CapEx, all that investment and people can operate on top of it. They're calling that environment their cloud. Okay? For the first time we're seeing this new dynamic where it's like they have a cloud, but Amazon's the CapEx, they're operating. So, you're starting to see the operational visibility, Gunnar, around how to operate this environment. And it's not hybrid, this, that, it's just, it's cloud. This is kind of an inflection point. Do you guys agree with that or have a reaction to that statement? Because I think this is, kind of, the next gen supercloud-like capability. We're going, we're building the cloud. It's now an environment. It's not talking about private cloud, this cloud, it's all cloud. What's your reaction? >> Yeah, I think, well, I think it's very natural. I mean, we use words like hybridcloud, multicloud, I guess supercloud is what the kids are saying now, right? It's all describing the same phenomena, right? Which is being able to take advantage of lots of different infrastructure options, but still having something that creates some commonality among them so that you can manage them effectively, right? So that you can have, kind of, uniform compliance across your estate. So that you can have, kind of, you can make the best use of your talent across the estate. I mean this is, it's a very natural thing. >> John: They're calling it cloud, the estate is the cloud. >> Yeah. So yeah, so fine, if it means that we no longer have to argue about what's multicloud and what's hybridcloud, I think that's great. Let's just call it cloud. >> Adnan, what's your reaction, 'cause this is kind of the next gen benefits of higher level services combined with amazing, you know, compute and resource at the infrastructure level. What's your view on that? >> Yeah, I think the construct of a unified environment makes sense for customers who have all these use cases which require, like for instance, if you are doing some edge computing and you're running WS outpost or you know, wavelength and these things. So, and it is fair for customer to think that, hey, this is one environment, same set of tooling that they want to build that works across all their different environments. That is why we work with partners like Red Hat so that customers who are running Red Hat Enterprise Linux on-premises and who are running in AWS get the same level of support, get the same level of security features, all of that. So from that sense, it actually makes sense for us to build these capabilities in a way that customers don't have to worry about, okay, now I'm actually in the AWS data center versus I'm running outpost on-premises. It is all one. They just use the same set of CLI, command line APIs and all of that. So in that sense it actually helps customers have that unification so that consistency of experience helps their workforce and be more productive versus figuring out, okay, what do I do, which tool I use where? >> Adnan, you just nailed it. This is about supply chain sustainability, moving the workloads into a cloud environment. You mentioned wavelength, this conversation's going to continue. We haven't even talked about the edge yet. This is something that's going to be all about operating these workloads at scale and all with the cloud services. So thanks for sharing that and we'll pick up that edge piece later. But for re:Invent right now, this is really the key conversation. How to make the sustained supply chain work in a complex environment, making it simpler. And so thanks you for sharing your insights here on theCUBE. >> Thanks, thanks for having us. >> Okay, this is theCUBE's coverage of AWS re:Invent 22. I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching. (bright music)

(light music) (airy white noise rumbling) >> Hey everyone, welcome back to Las Vegas. It's theCUBE. We're here, day four of our coverage of AWS re:Invent 22. There's been about, we've heard, north of 55,000 folks here in person. We're seeing only a fraction of that but it's packed in the expo center. We're at the Venetian Expo, Lisa Martin, Dave Vellante. Dave, we've had such great conversations as we always do on theCUBE. With the AWS ecosystem, we're going to be talking with another partner on that ecosystem and what they're doing to innovate together next. >> Well, we know security is the number one topic on IT practitioners, mine, CIOs, CISOs. We also know that they don't have the bench strength, that's why they look to manage service providers, manage service security providers. It's a growing topic, we've talked about it. We talked about it at re:Inforce earlier this year. I think it was July, actually, and August, believe it or not, not everybody was at the Cape. It was pretty well attended conference and that's their security focus conference, exclusive on security. But there's a lot of security here too. >> Lot of security, we're going to be talking about that next. We have two guests from Capgemini joining us. Mike Wasielewski, the head of cloud security, and NextGen secure architectures, welcome Mike. Anne Saunders also joins us, the Director of Cybersecurity Technology Partnerships at Capgemini, welcome Anne. >> Thank you. >> Dave: Hey guys. >> So, day four of the show, how you feeling? >> Anne: Pretty good. >> Mike: It's a long show. >> It is a long, and it's still jamming in here. Normally on the last day, it dwindles down. Not here. >> No, the foot traffic around the booth and around the totality of this expo floor has been amazing, I think. >> It really has. Anne, I want to start with you. Capgemini making some moves in the waves in the cloud and cloud security spaces. Talk to us about what Cap's got going on there. >> Well, we actually have a variety of things going on. Very much partner driven. The SOC Essentials offering that Mike's going to talk about shortly is the kind of the starter offer where we're going to build from and build out from. SOC Essentials is definitely critical for establishing that foundation. A lot of good stuff coming along with partners. Since I manage the partners, I'm kind of keen on who we get involved with and how we work with them to build out value and focus on our overall cloud security strategy. Mike, you want to talk about SOC Essentials? >> Yeah, well, no, I mean, I think at Capgemini, we really say cybersecurity is part of our DNA and so as we look at what we do in the cloud, you'll find that security has always been an underpinning to a lot of what we deliver, whether it's on the DevSecOps services, migration services, stuff like that. But what we're really trying to do is be intentional about how we approach the security piece of the cloud in different ways, right? Traditional infrastructure, you mentioned the totality of security vendors here and at re:Inforce. We're really seeing that you have to approach it differently. So we're bringing together the right partners. We're using what's part of our DNA to really be able to drive the next generation of security inside those clouds for our clients and customers. So as Anne was talking about, we have a new service called the Capgemini Cloud SOC Essentials, and we've really brought our partners to bear, in this case Trend Micro, really bringing a lot of their intelligence and building off of what they do so that we can help customers. Services can be pretty expensive, right, when you go for the high end, or if you have to try to run one yourself, there's a lot of time, I think you mentioned earlier, right, the people's benches. It's really hard to have a really good cybersecurity people in those smaller businesses. So what we're trying to do is we're really trying to help companies, whether you're the really big buyers of the world or some of the smaller ones, right? We want to be able to give you the visibility and ability to deliver to your customers securely. So that's how we're approaching security now and we're cloud SOC Essentials, the new thing that we're announcing while we were here is really driving out of. >> When I came out of re:Invent, when you do these events, you get this Kool-Aid injection and after a while you're like hm, what did I learn? And one of the things that struck me in talking to people is you've got the shared responsibility model that the cloud has sort of created and I know there's complexities across cloud but let's just keep it at cloud generically for a moment. And then you've got the CISO, the AppDev, AppSecDev group is being asked to do a lot. They're kind of being dragged into security that's really not their wheelhouse and then you've got audit which is like the last line of defense. And so one of the things that struck me at re:Inforce is like, okay, Amazon, great job for their portion of the shared responsibility model but I didn't hear a lot in terms of making the CISO's life easier and I'm guessing that's where you guys come in. I wonder if you could talk about that trend, that conceptual layers that I just laid out and where you guys fit. >> Mike: Sure, so I think first and foremost, I always go back to a quote from, I think it's attributed to Peter Drucker, whether that's right or wrong, who knows? But culture eats strategy for breakfast, right? And I think what we've seen in our conversations with whether you're talking to the CISO, the application team, the AppDev team, wherever throughout the organization, we really see that culture is what's going to drive success or failure of security in the org, and so what we do is we really do bring that totality of perspective. We're not just cloud, not just security, not just AppDev. We can really bring across the totality of the Capgemini estate. So that when we go, and you're right, a CISO says, I'm having a hard time getting the app people to deliver what I need. If you just come from a security perspective, you're right, that's what's going to happen. So what we try to do is so, we've got a great DevSecOps service, for example in the cloud where we do that. We bring all the perspectives together, how do we align KPIs? That's a big problem, I think, for what you're seeing, making CISO's lives easier, is about making sure that the app team KPIs are aligned with the CISO's but also the CISO's KPIs are aligned with the app teams. And by doing that, we have had really great success in a number of organizations by giving them the tools then and the people on our side to be able to make those alignments at the business level, to drive the right business outcome, to drive the right security outcome, the right application outcome. That's where I think we've really come to play. >> Absolutely, and I will say from a partnering perspective, what's key in supporting that strategy is we will learn from our partners, we lean on our partners to understand what the trends they're seeing and where they're having an impact with regards to supporting the CISO and supporting the overall security strategy within a company. I mean, they're on the cutting edge. We do a lot to track their technology roadmaps. We do a lot to track how they build their buyer personas and what issues they're dealing with and what issues they're prepared to deal with regards to where they're investing and who's investing in them. A lot of strategy around which partner to bring in and support, how we're going to address the challenges, the CISO and the IT teams are having to kind of support that overall. Security is a part of everything, DNA kind of strategy. >> Yeah, do you have a favorite example, Anne, of a partner that came in with Capgemini, helped a customer really be able to do what Capgemini is doing and that is, have cybersecurity be actually part of their DNA when there's so many challenges, the skills gap. Any favorite example that really you think articulates how you're able to enable organizations to achieve just that? >> Anne: Well, actually the SOC Essentials offering that we're rolling out is a prime example of that. I mean, we work very, very closely with Trend on all fronts with regards to developing it. It's one of those completely collaborative from day one to going to the customer and that it's almost that seamless connectivity and just partnering at such a strategic level is a great example of how it's done right, and when it's done right, how successful it can be. >> Dave: Why Trend Micro? Because I mean, I'm sure you've seen, I think that's Optiv, has the eye test with all the tools and you talk to CISOs, they're like really trying to consolidate those tools. So I presume there's a portfolio play there, but tell us, tell the audience a little bit more about why Trend Micro and I mean your branding with them, why those guys? >> Well, it goes towards the technology, of course, and all the development they've done and their position within AWS and how they address assuring security for our clients who are moving onto and running their estates on AWS. There's such a long heritage with regards to their technology platform and what they've developed, that deep experience, that kind of the strength of the technology because of the longevity they've had and where they sit within their domain. I try to call partners out by their domain and their area of expertise is part of the reason, I mean. >> Yeah, I think another big part of it is Gartner is expecting, I think they published this out in the next three years, we expect to see another consolidation both inside of the enterprises as well as, I look back a couple years, when Palo Alto went on a very nice spending spree, right? And put together a lot of really great companies that built their Prisma platform. So what I think one of the reasons we picked Trend in this particular case is as we look forward for our customers and our clients, not just having point solutions, right? This isn't just about endpoint protection, this isn't just about security posture management. This is really who can take the totality of the customer's problems and deliver on the right outcomes from a single platform, and so when we look at companies like Trend, like Palo, some of the bigger partners for us, that's where we try to focus. They're definitely best in breed and we bring those to our customers too for certain things. But as we look to the future, I think really finding those partners that are going to be able to solve a swath of problems at the right price point for their customers, that is where I think we see the industry moving. >> Dave: And maybe be around as an independent company. Was that a factor as well? I mean, you see Thoma Bravo buying up all his hiring companies and right, so, and maybe they're trying to create something that could be competitive, but you're saying Trend Micros there, so. >> Well I think as Anne mentioned, the 30 year heritage, I think, of Trend Micro really driving this and I've done work with them in various past things. There's also a big part of just the people you like, the people that are good to work with, that are really trying to be customer obsessed, going back right, at an AWS event, the ones that get the cloud tend to be able to follow those Amazon LPs as well, right, just kind of naturally, and so I think when you look at the Trend Micros of the world, that's where that kind of cloud native piece comes out and I like working with that. >> In this environment, the macro environment, lets talk a bit, earning season, it's really mixed. I mean you're seeing some really good earnings, some mixed earnings, some good earnings with cautious guidance. So nobody really (indistinct), and it was for a period time there was a thinking that security was non-discretionary and it's clearly non-discretionary, but the CISO, she or he, doesn't have unlimited budgets, right? So what are you seeing in terms of how are customers dealing with this challenging macro environment? Is it through tools consolidation? Is that a play that's going on? What are you seeing in the customer base? >> Anne: I see ways, and we're working through this right now where we're actually weaving cybersecurity in at the very beginning of how we're designing offers across our entire offer portfolio, not just the cybersecurity business. So taking that approach in the long run will help contain costs and our hope, and we're already seeing it, is it's actually helping change the perception that security's that cost center and that final obstacle you have to get over and it's going to throw your margins off and all that sort of stuff. >> Dave: I like that, its at least is like a security cover charge. You're not getting in unless we do the security thing. >> Exactly, a security cover charge, that's what you should call it. >> Yeah. >> Like it. >> Another piece though, you mentioned earlier about making CISO's life easier, right? And I think, as Anne did a really absolutely true about building it in, not to the security stack but application developers, they want visibility they want observability, they want to do it right. They want CI/CD pipeline that can give them confidence in their security. So should the CISO have a budget issue, right? And they can't necessarily afford, but the application team as they're looking at what products they want to purchase, can I get a SaaS or a DaaS, right? The static or dynamic application security testing in my product up front and if the app team buys into that methodology, the CISO convinces them, yes, this is important. Now I've got two budgets to pull from, and in the end I end up with a cheaper, a lower cost of a service. So I think that's another way that we see with like DevSecOps and a few other services, that building in on day one that you mentioned. >> Lisa: Yeah. >> Getting both teams involved. >> Dave: That's interesting, Mike, because that's the alignment that you were talking about earlier in the KPIs and you're not a tech vendor saying, buy my product, you guys have deep consultancy backgrounds. >> Anne: And the customer appreciates that. >> Yeah. >> Anne: They see us as looking out for their best interest when we're trying to support them and help them and bringing it to the table at the very beginning as something that is there and we're conscientious of, just helps them in the long run and I think, they're seeing that, they appreciate that. >> Dave: Yeah, you can bring best practice around measurements, alignment, business process, stuff like that. Maybe even some industry expertise which you're not typically going to get from a product company. >> Well, one thing you just mentioned that I love talking about with Capgemini is the industry expertise, right? So when you look at systems integrators, there are a lot of really, really good ones. To say otherwise would be foolish. But Capgemini with our acquisition of Altran, a couple years ago, I think think it was, right? How many other GSIs or SIs are actually building silicon for IoT chips? So IoT's huge right now, the intelligent industry moving forward is going to drive a lot of those business outcomes that people are looking for. Who else can say we've built an autonomous vehicle, Capgemini can. Who can say that we've built the IoT devices from the ground up? We know not just how to integrate them into AWS, into the IoT services in the cloud, but to build and have that secure development for the firmware and all and that's where I think our customers really look to us as being those industry experts and being able to bring that totality of our business to bear for what they need to do to achieve their objectives to deliver to their customer. >> Dave: That's interesting. I mean, using silicon as a differentiator to drive a lot of business outcomes and security. >> Mike: Absolutely. >> I mean you see what Amazon's doing in silicon, Look at Apple. Look at what Tesla's doing with silicon. >> Dave: That's where you're seeing a lot of people start focusing 'cause not everybody can do it. >> Yeah. >> It's hard. >> Right. >> It's hard. >> And you'll see some interesting announcements from us and some interesting information and trends that we'll be driving because of where we're placed and what we have going around security and intelligent industry overall. We have a lot of investment going on there right now and again, from the partner perspective, it's an ecosystem of key partners that collectively work together to kind of create a seamless security posture for an intelligent industry initiative with these companies that we're working with. >> So last question, probably toughest question, and that's to give us a 30 second like elevator pitch or a billboard and I'm going to ask you, Anne, specifically about the SOC Essentials program powered by Trend Micro. Why should organizations look to that? >> Organizations should move to it or work with us on it because we have the expertise, we have the width and breadth to help them fill the gaps, be those eyes, be that team, the police behind it all, so to speak, and be the team behind them to make sure we're giving them the right information they need to actually act effectively on maintaining their security posture. >> Nice and then last question for you, Mike is that billboard, why should organizations in any industry work with Capgemini to help become an intelligent industrial player. >> Mike: Sure, so if you look at our board up top, right, we've got our tagline that says, "get the future you want." And that's what you're going to get with Capgemini. It's not just about selling a service, it's not just about what partners' right in reselling. We don't want that to be why you come to us. You, as a company have a vision and we will help you achieve that vision in a way that nobody else can because of our depth, because of the breadth that we have that's very hard to replicate. >> Awesome guys, that was great answers. Mike, Anne, thank you for spending some time with Dave and me on the program today talking about what's new with Capgemini. We'll be following this space. >> All right, thank you very much. >> For our guests and for Dave Vellante, I'm Lisa Martin, you're watching theCUBE, the leader in live enterprise and emerging tech coverage. (gentle light music)

(gentle music) >> Now welcome back to theCUBE, everyone. I'm John Walls, and once again, we're glad to have you here for AWS re:Invent 22. Our coverage continues here on Thursday, day three, of what has been a jam-packed week of tech and AWS, of course, has been the great host for this. It's now a pleasure to welcome in Anurag Gupta, who is the founder and CEO of Shoreline, joining us here as part of the AWS Global Showcase Startup Program, and Anurag, good to see you, sir. Thanks for joining us. >> Thank you so much. >> Tell us about Shoreline, about what you're up to. >> So we're a DevOps company. We're really focused on repairing issues. If you think about it, there are a ton DevOps companies and we all went to the cloud in order to gain faster innovation and by and large check. Then all of the things involved in getting things into production, artifact generation, testing, configuration management, deployment, also by and large, automated. Now pity the poor SRE who's getting the deluge of stuff on them, every week, every two days, sometimes multiple times a day, and it's complicated, right? Kubernetes, VMs, lots of services, multiple clouds, sometimes, and you know, they need to know a little bit about everything. And you know what, there are a ton of companies that actually help you with what we call Day-2 Ops. It's just that most of them help you with observability, telling you what's gone wrong, or incident management, routing something to someone. But you know, back when I was at AWS, I never got really that excited about one more dashboard to look at or one more like better ticket routing. What used to really excite me was having some issue extinguished forever. And if you think about it, like the first five minutes of an incident are detecting and routing. The next hour, two hours, is some human being going in and fixing it, so that feels like the big opportunity to reduce, so hopefully we can talk a little bit about different ways that one can do that. >> What about Day-2 Ops? Just tell me about how you define that. >> So I basically define it as once the software goes into a production, just making sure things stay up and are healthy and you're resilient and you don't get errors and all of those sorts of things because everything breaks sooner or later, you know, to a greater or lesser degree. >> Especially that SRE you're talking about, right? >> Yeah. >> So let's go back to that scenario. Yeah, you pity the poor soul because they do have to be a little expert in everything. >> Exactly. >> And that's really challenging and we all know that, that's really hard. So how do you go about trying to lighten that burden, then? >> So when you look at the numbers, about somewhere between 40% to even 95% of the alarms that fire, the alerts that fire, are false positives and that's crazy. Why is someone waking up just to deal with? >> It's a lot of wasted time, isn't it? >> A lot of wasted time. And you know, you're also training someone into what I call ClickOps, just to go in and click the button and resolve it and you don't actually know if it was the false positive or it's the rare real positive, and so that's a challenge, right? And so the first thing to do is to figure out where the false positives are. Like, let's say Datadog tells you that CPU is high and alarms. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? It's hard for them to tell, right? But you have to then introspect it into something precise like, oh, CPU is high, but response times are standard and the request rate is high. Okay, that's a good thing. I'm going to ignore this. Or CPU is high, but it kind of resolves itself, so I'm going to not wake anybody up. Or CPU is high and oh, it's the darn JVM starting to garbage collect again, so let me go and take a heap dump and give that to my dev team and then bounce the JVM and you know, without waking anybody up, or CPU is high, I have no idea what's going on. Now it's time to wake somebody up. You know, what you want to use humans for is the ability to think about novel stuff, not to do repetitive stuff, so that's the first step. The second step is, about 40% of what remains is repetitive and straightforward. So like a disk is full, I'd better clean up the garbage on the disk or maybe grow the disk. People shouldn't wake up to deal to grow a disk. And so for that, what you want to do is just have those sorts of things get automated away. One of the nice things about Shoreline is, is that we take the experience in what we build for one company, and if they're willing, provide it to everybody else. Our belief is, a central tenant is, if someone somewhere fixes something, everyone everywhere should gain the benefit because we all sit on the same three clouds, we all sit on the same set of database infrastructure, et cetera. We should all get the same benefits. Why do we have to scar our own backs rather than benefiting from somebody else's scar tissue, so that's the second thing. The third thing is, okay, let's say it's not straightforward, not something I've seen before, then in that case, what often happens is on average like eight people get involved. You know, it initially goes to L1 support or L1 ops and, but they don't necessarily know because, as you say, the environment's complex. And so, you know, they go into Slack and they say, "At here, can somebody help me with this?" And those things take a much longer time, so wouldn't it be better that if your best SRE is able to say, "Hey, check these 20 things and then run these actions." We could convert that into like a Jupyter Notebook where you could say the incident got fired I pre-populated all the diagnostics, and then I tell people very precisely, "If you see this, run this, et cetera." Like a wiki, but actually something you could run right in this product. And then, you know, last piece of the puzzle, the smaller piece, is sometimes new things happen and when something new happens, what you want is sort of the central tech of Shoreline, which is parallel distributed, real-time debugging. And so the ability to do, you know, execute a command across your fleet rather than individual boxes so that you can say something like, "I'm hearing that my credit card app is slow. For everything tagged as being part of my credit card app, please run for everything that's running over 90% CPU, please run a top command." And so, you know, then you can run in the same time on one host as you can on 30,000 and that helps a lot. So that's the core of what we do. People use us for all sorts of things, also preventative maintenance, you know, just the proactive regular things. You know, like your car, you do an oil change, well, you know, you need to rotate your certs, certificates. You need to make sure that, you know, there isn't drift in your configurations, there isn't drift in your software. There's also security elements to it, right? You want to make sure that you aren't getting weird inbound/outbound traffic across to ports you don't expect to be open. You don't want to have these processes running, you know, maybe something's bad. And so that's all the kind of weird anomaly detection that's easy to do if you run things in a distributed parallel way across everything. That's super hard to do if you have to go and Whac-A-Mole across one box after the next. >> Well, which leads to a question just in terms of setting priorities then, which is what you're talking about helping companies establish priorities, this hierarchy of level one warning, level two, level three, level four. Sounds like that should be a basic, right? But you're saying that's not, that's not really happening in the enterprise. >> Well, you know, I would say that if you hadn't automated deployments, you should do that first. If you haven't automated your testing pipeline, shame on you, you should do that like a year ago. But now it's time to help people in production because you've done that other work and people are suffering. You know, the crazy thing about the cloud is, is that companies spend about three times more on the human beings to operate their cloud infrastructure as on the cloud infrastructure itself. I've yet to hear anybody say that their cloud bill is too low, you know, so, you know, there's a clearer savings also available. And you know, back when I was at AWS, obviously I had to keep the lights on too, but you know, I had to do that, but it's kind of a tax on my engineers and I'd really spend, prefer to spend the head count on innovation, on doing things that delight my customers. You never delight your customers by keeping the lights on, you just avoid irritating them by turning 'em off, right? >> So why are companies so fixed in on spending so much time on manually repairing things and not looking for these kinds of little, much more elegant solution and cost-efficient, time-saving, so on so forth. >> Yeah, I think there just hasn't been very much in this space as yet because it's a hard, hard problem to solve. You know, automation's a little bit scary and that's the reality of it and the way you make it less scary is by proving it out, by doing the simple things first, like reducing the alert fatigue, you know, that's easy. You know, providing notebooks to people so that they can click things and do things in a straightforward way. That's pretty easy. The full automation, that's kind of the North Star, that's what we aspire to do. But you know, people get there over time and one of our customers had 700 instances of this particular incident solved for them last week. You imagine how many human beings would've been doing it otherwise, you know? >> Right. >> That's just one thing, you know? >> How many did it take the build a pyramid? How many decades did that take, right? You had an announcement this week. I don't think we've talked about that. >> No, yeah, so we just announced Incident Insights, which is a free product that lets people plug into initially PagerDuty and pretty soon the Opsgenie ServiceNow, et cetera. And what you can do is, is you give us an API key read-only and we will suck your PagerDuty data out. We apply some lightweight ML unsupervised learning, and in a couple of minutes, we categorize all of your incidents so that you can understand which are the ones that happen most often and are getting resolved really quickly. That's ClickOps, right? Those alarms shouldn't fire. Which are the ones that involve a lot of people? Those are good candidates to build a notebook. Which are the ones that happen again and again and again? Those are good candidates for automation. And so, I think one of the challenges people have is, is that they don't actually know what their teams are doing and so this is intended to provide them that visibility. One of our very first customers was doing the beta test for us on it. He used to tell us he had about 100 tickets, incidents a week. You know, he brought this tool in and he had 2,100 last week and was all, you know, like these false alarms, so while he's giving us- >> That was eye opening for him to see that, sure. >> And why he's, you know, looking at it, you know, he's just like filing Jiras to say, "Oh, change this threshold, cancel this alarm forever." You know, all of that kind of stuff. Before you get to do the fancy work, you got to clean your room before you get to do anything else, right? >> Right, right, dinner before dessert, basically. >> There you go. >> Hey, thanks for the insights on this and again the name of the new product, by the way, is... >> Incident Insights. >> Incident Insights. >> Totally free. >> Free. >> Yeah, it takes a couple of minutes to set up. Go to the website, Shoreline.io/insight and you can be up and running in a couple of minutes. >> Outstanding, again, the company is Shoreline. This is Anurag Gupta, and thank you for being with us. We appreciate it. >> Appreciate it, thank you. >> Glad to have to here on theCUBE. Back with more from AWA re:Invent 22. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in high-tech coverage. (gentle music)

well hello everybody John Wallace here on thecube he's continuing our segments here on the AWS Global startup showcase we are at day three of Reinventing irking Zhang is joining us now he is the CEO co-founder of Jupiter one um first off before we get going talking about you know security and big world for you guys I know what's your take on the show what's been going on out here at re invent yeah yeah ring event has been one of my favorite shows there's a lot of people here there's a lot of topics of course it's not just cyber security a lot of cloud infrastructure and just technology in general so you get a lot you know if you go walk the floor you see a lot of vendors you look at us go into sessions you can learn a lot but you're the Hot Topic right everybody's focused on Cyber yeah big time and with good reason right because as we know the Bad actors are getting even smarter and even faster and even more Nimble so just paint the landscape for me here in general right now as you see uh security Cloud Security in particular and and kind of where we are in that battle well we are clearly not winning so I think that in itself is a bit of a uh interesting problem right so as a it's not just Cloud security if you think about cyber security in general as an industry it has it has not been around for that long right but if you just look at the history of it uh we haven't done that while so uh pick another industry say medicine which has been around forever and if you look at the history of Medicine well I would argue you has done tremendously well because people live longer right when you get sick you get access to health care and yeah exactly you have Solutions and and you can see the trend even though there are problems in healthcare of course right but the trend is is good it's going well but not in cyber security more breaches more attacks more attackers we don't know what the hell we're doing with that many solutions and you know that's been one of my struggles as a former CSO and security practitioner for many years you know why is it that we're not getting better all right so I'm going to ask you the question yeah okay why aren't we getting better you know how come we can't stay ahead of the curve on this thing that for some reason it's like whack-a-mole times a hundred every time we think we solve one problem we have a hundred more that show up over here exactly and we have to address that and and our attention keeps floating around yeah I think you said it right so because we're taking this guacamole approach and we're looking for the painkiller of the day and you know we're looking for uh the Band-Aids right so and then we ended up well I I think to be fair to be fair to your industry the industry moves so quickly technology in general moves so quickly and security has been playing catch-up over time we're still playing catch-up so when you're playing catch-up you you can almost only uh look at you know what's the painkiller of what's the band name of the day so I can stop the bleeding right but I do think that we're we're to a point or we have enough painkillers and Band-Aids and and we need to start looking at how can we do better fundamentally with the basics and do the basics well because a lot of times the basics that get you into trouble so fundamentally the foundation I if I hear you right what you're saying is um you know quick changing industry right things are moving rapidly but we're not blocking and tackling we're not doing the X's and O's and so forget changing and we we got to get back to the basis and do those things right exactly you can only seem so simple it seems so simple but it's so hard right so you can you can think about you know uh even in case of building a starter building a company and and in order at one point right so we're blocking uh blocking tackling and then when we grow to a certain size we have to scale we have to figure out how to scale the business this is the same problem that happens in security as an industry we've been blocking happening for so long you know we're the industry is so young but we're to a point that we got to figure out how to scale this scale this in a fundamentally different way and I'll give you some example right so so what when we say the basics now it's easy to to think that say users should have MFA enabled is one of the basics right or another Basics will be you have endpoint protection on your devices you know maybe it's Cloud strike or Sentinel one or carbon black or whatever but the question being how do you know it is working 100 of the time right how do you know that how do you know right you find out too exactly that's right and how do you know that you have 100 coverage on your endpoints those Solutions are not going to tell you because they don't know what they don't know right if it's not enabled if it's not you know what what's the negative that you are not seeing so that's one of the things that you know that's in the basic state that you're now covering so the fundamentals it really goes to these five questions that I think that nobody has a really good answer for until now so the five questions goes what do I have right is it important what's important out of all the things I have you have a lot right you could have millions of things what important now for those that are important does it have a problem and if it has a problem who can fix it because the reality is in most cases security teams are not the ones fixing the problems they're they're the ones identical they're very good at recognizing but not so good exactly identifying the owner who can fix it right right could be could be business owner could be Engineers so the the asset ownership identification right so so these four questions and and then over time you know whether it's over a week or a month or a quarter or a year am I getting better right and then you just keep asking these questions in different areas in different domains with a different lens right so maybe that's endpoints maybe that's Cloud maybe that's you know users maybe that's a product and applications right but it really boils down to these five questions that's the foundation for any good security program if you can do that well I think we cover a lot of bases and we're going to be in much better shape than we have been all right so where do you come in man Jupiter one in terms of what you're providing because obviously you've identified this kind of pyramid yes this hierarchy of addressing needs and I assume obviously knowing you as I do and knowing the company as I do you've got Solutions that's exactly right right and and we precisely answer those five questions right for uh any organization uh from a asset perspective right because all the the answers to all those these five questions are based in assets it starts with knowing what I have right right so the the overall challenge of cyber security being broke broken I I believe is fundamentally that people do not understand and cannot uh probably deal with the complexity that we have within our own environments so again like you know using uh medicine as an example right so in order to come up with the right medicine for either it's a vaccine for covid-19 or whether it is a treatment for cancer or whatever that case may be you have to start with the foundations of understanding both the pathogen and to the human body like DNA sequencing right without those you cannot effectively produce the right medicine in modern uh you know Medicine sure right so that is the same thing that's happening in cyber security you know we spend a lot of times you know putting band days in patches right and then we spend a lot of time doing attacker research from the outside but we don't fundamentally understand in a complete way what's the complexity within our own environment in terms of digital assets and that's that's almost like the DNA of your own work what is that kind of mind-blowing in a way that if again hearing you what you're talking about is saying that the first step is to identify what you have that's right so it seems just so basic that that I should know what I what's under my hood I should know what is valuable and what is not I should prioritize what I really need to protect and what maybe can go on the second shelf yeah it has been a tough problem since the beginning of I.T not just the beginning of cyber security right so in the history of I.T we have this thing called cmdb configuration management database it is supposed to capture the configurations of it assets now over time that has become a lot more complex and and there's a lot more than just it asset that we have to understand from a security and attack service perspective right so we have to understand I.T environments we have to understand Cloud environments and applications and users and access and data and as and all of those things then then we have to take a different approach of sort of a modern cmdb right so what is the way that we can understand all of those complexity within all of those assets but not just independently within those silos but rather in a connected way so we can not only understand the attack surface but only but also understand the attack path that connect the dots from one thing to another right because everything in the organization is actually connected if if there's any one thing that sits on an island right so if you say you have a a a a server or a device or a user that is on an island that is not connected to the rest of the organization then why have it right and it doesn't matter so it's the understanding of that connect connected tissue this entire map where this you know DNA sequencing equivalent of a digital organization is what Jupiter one provides right so that visibility of the fundamental you know very granular uh level of assets and resources to answer those five questions and how does that how do I get better at that then I mean I have you to help me but but internally within our organization um I mean I don't want to be rude but I mean do I have do I have the skill for that do I have um do I have the the internal horsepower for that or or is there some need to close that Gap and how do I do it you know I'll tell you two things right so so one you mentioned the worst skills right so let me start there so because this one is very interesting we also have a huge skills shortage in cyber security we will we've all heard that for years and and and and for a long time but if you dig deeper into it why is that why is that and you know we have a lot of you know talented people right so why do we still have a skills shortage now what's interesting is if you think about what we're asking security people to do is mind-boggling so if you if you get a security analyst to say hey I want to understand how to protect something or or how to deal with an incident and what you're asking the person to do is not only to understand the security concept and be a domain expert in security you're also asking the person to and understand at the same time AWS or other clouds or endpoints or code or applications so that you can properly do the analysis and the in the response it's it's impossible it's like you know if you have you have to have a person who's an expert in everything know everything about everything that's right it's impossible so so so that's that's one thing that we have to to resolve is how do we use technology like Jupiter one to provide an abstraction so that there's Automation in place to help the security teams be better at their jobs without having to be an expert in deep technology right just add the abstract level of understanding because you know we can we can model the data and and provide the analysis and visual visualization out of the box for them so they can focus on just the security practices so that's one and the second thing is we have to change the mindset like take vulnerability management as an example right so the mindset for vulnerability management has been how do I manage findings now we have to change it to the concept of more proactive and how to manage assets so let's think about uh you know say log4j right that that happened and uh you know when it happened everybody scrambles and said hey which which devices or which you know uh systems have log4j and you know it doesn't matter what's the impact we can fix it right going back to those questions that that I mentioned before right and then um and then they try to look for a solution at a time say well where's that silver bullet that can give me the answers now what what what we struggle with though is that you know I want to maybe ask the question where were you six months ago where were you six months ago where you could have done the due diligence and put something in place that help you understand all of these assets and connections so you can go to one place and just ask for that question when something like that you know hit the fan so so if we do not fundamentally change the mindset to say I have to look at things not from a reactive findings perspective but really starting from an asset-centric you know day one perspective to look at that and have this Foundation have this map build we can't get there right so it's like you know if I need direction I go to Google Maps right but the the reason that it works is because somebody has done the work of creating the map right right if you haven't if you don't have the map and you just at you know when the time you say I gotta go somewhere and you expect the map to magically happen to show you the direction it's not going to work right right I imagine there are a lot of people out there right now are listening to thinking oh boy you know and that's what Jupiter one's all about they're there to answer your oh boy thanks for the time of course I appreciate the insights as well it's nice to know that uh at least somebody is reminding us to keep the front door locked too that's just the back door the side doors keep that front door and that garage locked up too definitely um all right we'll continue our coverage here at AWS re invent 22 this is part of the AWS Global startup showcase and you're watching the cube the leader in high-tech coverage foreign

(soft music) >> We're in Las Vegas at The Venetian for our continued coverage here of re:Invent '22, AWS's big show going on. Great success off to a wonderful start. We're in the Executive Summit sponsored by Accenture. And we're going to talk about public health and the cloud, how those have come together in the great state of North Carolina. Charles Carter is going to help us do that. He's assistant secretary for technology services with the state of North Carolina's Department of Health and Human Services. Charles, good to see you. Thanks for joining us here on "theCUBE". >> Thank you very much for having me. >> Yeah, thanks for making the time. So first off, let's talk about what you do on the homefront before what you're doing here and where you're going. But in terms of kind of what your plan has been, what your journey has been from a cloud perspective and how you've implemented that and where you are right now in your journey. >> Sure, so we started. When I got there, we didn't have a cloud footprint at all. There was a- >> Host: Which was how long ago? >> I got there in 2016, so about six years. >> Host: Six, seven years, yeah. >> Yeah, five, six years. So anyways, we started off with our first module within our Medicaid expansion. And that was the first time that we went into the cloud. We worked with AWS to do our encounter processing system. And it was an incredible success. I think the ease of use was really kind of something that people weren't quite ready for. But it was really exciting to see that. And the scalability, to be able to turn that on and cover the entirety of North Carolina was awesome. So once we saw that and get a little taste of it, then we really wanted to start implementing it throughout DHHS. And we marshaled in a cloud-only cloud-first strategy where you had to actually get an exemption not to go to the cloud. And that was a first for our state. So that was really kind of the what launched us. But then COVID hit. And once COVID came in, that took us to a new level. COVID forced us to build technologies that enabled a better treatment, a better care, a better response from our team. And so we were able to stand up platforms in 48 hours. We were able to stand up COVID vaccine management systems in six weeks. And none of that would've been possible without the cloud. >> So forced your hand in a way because all of a sudden you've got this extraordinarily remote workforce, right, and people trying to- And you're doing different tasks that were totally unexpected, right, prior to that. What kind of a shock to the system was that from I get from an IT perspective? >> Yeah, so from a state government perspective, for example, you never hear you have all the money you need and you have to do it quickly. It just doesn't work like that. But this was a rare moment in time where you had this critical need. The entire country and our state population was kind of on edge. How do we move through this? How do we factor our lives into this new integration? What is this virus? Is it spreading in my county, in my city, my zip code? Where is it? And that kind of desperation really kind of focused everybody in on build me technologies that can get me the data that I need to make good healthcare decisions, good clinical decisions. And so that was our challenge. Cloud enabled it because it can scale so quickly. We can set up things, we can exchange data. We can move data around a lot easier. And the security is better from our perspective. So that COVID experience really kind of pushed us, you know, if you will, out the door. And we're never going back because it's just too good. >> Yeah, was that the aha moment then in a way because you had to do so much so fast and before capabilities that maybe you didn't have or maybe hadn't tapped? >> Yeah, yeah. >> I mean what was the accelerant there? Was COVID that big, or was it somebody who had to make a decision to say, this is where we're going with this, somebody in your shoes or somebody with whom you work? >> Yeah, no, I mean cloud at the end of the day, we knew that in order to do what we needed to do we couldn't do it on-prem. It wasn't an option. So if we wanted to build these capabilities, if we wanted to bring in technologies that really brought data to our key, our governor, our secretary, to make good decisions on behalf of our residents in North Carolina, then we were going to have to build things quickly. And the only way you can do that is in the cloud. So it was when they came back and said, "We need these things," there's only one answer. That's a good thing about technology. It's pretty binary, so it was either go with what we had, which wasn't adequate, or build to what we knew we could do and pretty short order. And because of that, we were able to actually usher in a huge expansion of cloud footprint within DHHS. And now we've actually been able to implement it in other departments simply because of our expertise. And that's been a huge asset for the state of North Carolina as a whole. >> So what's your measuring stick then for value in terms of identifying benefit? 'Cause it's not really about cost. This is about service, I assume, right? >> Right. >> So, you know, how do you quantify the values and the benefits that you're deriving from this migration over to the cloud? >> So from our perspective, it hits several different areas. I mean, you can start in security. We know that if we're in the cloud the tools that can manage and give us visibility in the cloud are 10 times better than an on-prem environment. And so if we can take a lot of these legacy systems and move them to the cloud, we'll be in a better security posture. So we have that piece of it. The other part of it is the data aspect of it, being able to- We're 33 divisions strong, right? We have a large footprint. We have a lot of siloed data elements. And cloud allows us to start integrating those data sets in a much more usable fashion so that we can see that if Charles Carter's in one area in division, a specific division with DHHS, is he somewhere else? And if he is somewhere else, then how do we provide a better clinical care for that individual? And those are conversations that we can't really have if we don't move to the cloud. So those types of- And of course there's always the OKRs, the actual measurements that you apply to things that we're doing. But at the end of the day, can we get the requirements from our business partners, bring those requirements to bear in technology, and really enable the indoctrination of these requirements throughout our clinical and healthcare kills? >> What about they're always pillars here, right? Governance, huge pillar, security, huge pillar, especially in your world, right? >> Yeah. >> So making that move over to the cloud and still recognizing that these are essentials that you have to have in place, I wouldn't say adjustments, but what kind of, I guess, recognition have you had toward that and making sure that you're still very true to those principles that are vital in the terms of public health? >> It is a great question because our secretary at the time and our governor, Roy Cooper, were very focused on enabling transparency. We had to be very transparent with what we were doing because the residents in North Carolina were just really kind of, "What's going on?" It was a scary time for a lot of us. So transparency was a key element towards our success. And in order to do that, you've got to have proper security. You got to have proper governance. You've got to have proper builds within technology that really enable that kind of visibility. One of the things that we did very early on was we set up a governance structure for our cloud environments so that as we wanted to and stand up an easy-to environment or we wanted to do some sort of work within a cloud or stand up in a different environment, we were able actually to set up a framework for how do you introduce that. Are you doing it correctly? Do you have the proper security on it? Do you have the funding for it? Like all the steps that you need to really kind of build into the scaffolding around a lot of these efforts we had to put in place and pretty quickly to get them going. But once we did that, the acceptance and the adoption of it was just tremendous. I mean, it was a light on for all of our business partners 'cause they understood I can either build on-prem, in which case I won't be able to get what I want in any kind of reasonable time period. Or I can build on cloud. And I can have it in some cases in 48 hours. >> Right, tomorrow. >> Yeah, exactly. >> You know, it was a huge difference. >> So where are you there? I mean, this is just not like a really big old lift and shift and we're all done and this is great. Cloud's taken care of all of our needs. Where are you in terms of the journey that you're undertaking? And then ultimately where do you want to go, like how far? What kind of goals have you set for yourself for the next two, three years down the road? >> Yeah, so this is an exciting part because we have actually- Like I mentioned earlier, we are a cloud-first cloud-only strategy, right? There's no reasons for us to be on-prem. It's just a matter of us kind of sunsetting legacy systems and bringing on cloud performance. We hope to be a 60% of our applications, which we have over 400 applications. So it's pretty large footprint. But we're wanting to migrate all of that to the cloud by 2025. So if we can achieve that, I think we'll be well on our way. And the momentum will carry forward for us to do that. We've actually had to do a reorganization of our whole IT structure. I think this is an important part to maintain that momentum because we've reorganized our staff, reorganized ourselves so that we can focus more on how do you adopt cloud, how do you bring in platforms which are all cloud-based, how do you use data within those systems? And that has allowed us to kind of think differently about our responsibilities, who's accountable for what, and to kind of keep those, that momentum going. So we've got some big projects that are on right now. Some of them are lift and shift, like you mentioned. We have a project with kind of a clumsy, monolithic system. It's called (indistinct). We're trying to migrate that to the cloud. We're in the process of doing that. And it's an excellent demonstration of capability once we pull that off. And then of course any new procurement that we put out there no one's making anything for on-prem anymore. Everyone's making their SaaS products for cloud-based experiences. Or if we're going to build or just use integrators then we'll build that in house. But all of it's based on cloud. >> And you mentioned SaaS. How much of this stuff are you doing on your own? And how much are you doing through managed services? >> Yeah, so like I mentioned, we have over 400 applications. So we had a pretty large footprint, right? >> Big, it's huge, right. >> So we're only who we are, and we can only build so much. So we're kind of taking- We did a application rationalization effort, which kind of identified some threats to our systems. Like maybe they're older things, FoxPro, kind of older languages that we're using. And in some cases we got people who are retiring. And there's not many people who can support that anymore. So how do we take those and migrate them to the cloud, either put them on a Salesforce or ServiceNow or Microsoft Dynamics platform and really kind of upgrade those systems? So we're in the process of kind of analyzing those elements. But yeah, that's kind of the exciting launch, if you will, of kind of taking the existing visibility of our applications and then applying it to what we're capable of with the cloud. >> And if you had advice that you could give to your colleagues who are in public health or just in public, the public sector- And your resources, they're finite. This is kind of what you have to deal with. And yet you have needs, and you're trying to stay current. You've got talent challenges, right? You've got rev or spending challenges. So if you could sit down your colleagues in a room and say, "Okay, this has been our experience. Here's what I would keep an eye out for," what kind of headlights would you beat for them? >> Yeah, so I think the biggest aha that I'd like to share with my contemporaries out there is that you've got a great ability to lower your costs, to excite your own personnel because they want to work on the new stuff. We've actually set up a whole professional development pathway within our organization to start getting people certified on AWS, certified on other platforms, to get them ready to start working in those environments. And so all of that work that we're been doing is coming together and allowing us to maintain the momentum. So what I'd recommend to people is, A, look at your own individual staff. I don't think you need to go outside to find the talent. I think you can train the talent that you have interior. I think you've got to aggressively pursue modernization because modernization enables a lot more. It's less expensive. It enables quicker adoption of business requirements and modern business requirements. And then lastly, focus on your data sharing because what you're going to find in the platforms and in the clouds is that there is a lot more opportunities for data integrations and conjoining disparate data sources. So if you can do those elements, you'll find that your capabilities on the business side are much more, much greater on the other end. >> Don't be scared, right, jump in? (laughing) >> Definitely don't be scared. Don't be, the water's warm. (host laughing) Come on in, you're fine, you're fine. (laughing) >> No little toe dipping in there. You're going to dive into the deep end, let her rip. >> Exactly, just go right in, just go right in. >> Well, it sounds like you've done that with great success. >> I'm very happy with it. >> Congratulations on that. And wish you success down the road. >> Thank you very much, I appreciate it. >> Yeah, thank you, Charles. All right, back with more. You are watching theCUBE here in Las Vegas. theCUBE of course the leader, as you know, in tech coverage. (soft music)

(soft music) >> Welcome back to Sin City, guys and girls we're glad you're with us. You've been watching theCUBE all week, we know that. This is theCUBE's live coverage of AWS re:Invent 22, from the Venetian Expo Center where there are tens of thousands of people, and this event if you know it, covers the entire strip. There are over 55,000 people here, hundreds of thousands online. Dave, this has been a fantastic show. It is clear everyone's back. We're hearing phenomenal stories from AWS and it's ecosystem. We got a great customer story coming up next, featured on the main stage. >> Yeah, I mean, you know, post pandemic, you start to think about, okay, how are things changing? And one of the things that we heard from Adam Selipsky, was, we're going beyond digital transformation into business transformation. Okay. That can mean a lot of things to a lot of people. I have a sense of what it means. And I think this next interview really talks to business transformation beyond digital transformation, beyond the IT. >> Excellent. We've got two guests. One of them is an alumni, Scott Mullins joins us, GM, AWS Worldwide Financial Services, and Brad Peterson is here, the EVP, CIO and CTO of NASDAQ. Welcome guys. Great to have you. >> Hey guys. >> Hey guys. Thanks for having us. >> Yeah >> Brad, talk a little bit, there was an announcement with NASDAQ and AWS last year, a year ago, about how they're partnering to transform capital markets. It was a highlight of last year. Remind us what you talked about and what's gone on since then. >> Yeah, so, we are very excited. I work with Adena Friedman, she's my boss, CEO of NASDAQ, and she was on stage with Adam for his first Keynote as CEO of AWS. And we made the commitment that we were going to move our markets to the Cloud. And we've been a long time customer of AWS and everyone said, you know the last piece, the last frontier to be moved was the actual matching where all the messages, the quotes get matched together to become confirmed orders. So that was what we committed to less than a year ago. And we said we were going to move one of our options markets. In the US, we have six of them. And options markets are the most challenging, they're the most high volume and high performance. So we said, let's start with something really challenging and prove we can do it together with AWS. So we committed to that. >> And? Results so far? >> So, I can sit here and say that November 7th so we are live, we're in production and the MRX Exchange is called Mercury, so we shorten it for MRX, we like acronyms in technology. And so, we started with a phased launch of symbols, so you kind of allow yourself to make sure you have all the functionality working then you add some volume on it, and we are going to complete the conversion on Monday. So we are all good so far. And I have some results I can share, but maybe Scott, if you want to talk about why we did that together. >> Yeah. >> And what we've done together over many years. >> Right. You know, Brian, I think it's a natural extension of our relationship, right? You know, you look at the 12 year relationship that AWS and NASDAQ have had together, it's just the next step, in the way that we're going to help the industry transform itself. And so not just NASDAQ's business transformation for itself, but really a blueprint and a template for the entire capital markets industry. And so many times people will ask me, who's using Cloud well? Who's doing well in the Cloud? And NASDAQ is an easy example to point to, of somebody who's truly taking advantage of these capabilities because the Cloud isn't a place, it's a set of capabilities. And so, this is a shining example of how to use these capabilities to actually deliver real business benefit, not just to to your organization, but I think the really exciting part is the market technology piece of how you're serving other exchanges. >> So last year before re:Invent, we said, and it's obvious within the tech ecosystem, that technology companies are building on top of the Cloud. We said, the big trend that we see in the 2020s is that, you know, consumers of IT, historically, your customers are going to start taking their stacks, their software, their data, their services and sassifying, putting it on the Cloud and delivering new services to customers. So when we saw Adena on stage last year, we called it by the way, we called it Super Cloud. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Some people liked the term but I love it. And so yeah, Super Cloud. So when we saw Adena on stage, we said that's a great example. We've seen Capital One doing some similar things, we've had some conversations with US West, it's happening, right? So talk about how you actually do that. I mean, because you've got a lot, you've got a big on-premises stay, are you connecting to that? Is it all in the Cloud? Paint a picture of what the architecture looks like? >> Yeah. And there's, so you started with the business transformation, so I like that. >> Yeah. >> And the Super Cloud designation, what we are is, we own and operate exchanges in the United States and in Europe and in Canada. So we have our own markets that we're looking at modernizing. So we look at this, as a modernization of the capital market infrastructure, but we happen to be the leading technology provider for other markets around the world. So you either build your own or you source from us. And we're by far the leading provider. So a lot of our customers said, how about if you go first? It's kind of like Mikey, you know, give it to Mikey, let him try it. >> See if Mikey likes it. >> Yeah. >> Penguin off the iceberg thing. >> Yeah. And so what we did is we said, to make this easy for our customers, so you want to ask your customers, you want to figure out how you can do it so that you don't disrupt their business. So we took the Edge Compute that was announced a few years ago, Amazon Outposts, and we were one of their early customers. So we started immediately to innovate with, jointly innovate with Amazon. And we said, this looks interesting for us. So we extended the region into our Carteret data center in Northern New Jersey, which gave us all the services that we know and love from Amazon. So our technical operations team has the same tools and services but then, we're able to connect because in the markets what we're doing is we need to connect fairly. So we need to ensure that you still have that fairness element. So by bringing it into our building and extending the Edge Compute platform, the AWS Outpost into Carteret, that allowed us to also talk very succinctly with our regulators. It's a familiar territory, it's all buttoned up. And that simplified the conversion conversation with the regulators. It simplified it with our customers. And then it was up to us to then deliver time and performance >> Because you had alternatives. You could have taken a more mature kind of on-prem legacy stack, figured out how to bolt that in, you know, less cloudy. So why did you choose Outposts? I am curious. >> Well, Outposts looked like when it was announced, that it was really about extending territory, so we had our customers in mind, our global customers, and they don't always have an AWS region in country. So a lot of you think about a regulator, they're going to say, well where is this region located? So finally we saw this ability to grow the Cloud geographically. And of course we're in Sweden, so we we work with the AWS region in Stockholm, but not every country has a region yet. >> And we're working as fast as we can. - Yes, you are. >> Building in every single location around the planet. >> You're doing a good job. >> So, we saw it as an investment that Amazon had to grow the geographic footprint and we have customers in many smaller countries that don't have a region today. So maybe talk a little bit about what you guys had in mind and it's a multi-industry trend that the Edge Compute has four or five industries that you can say, this really makes a lot of sense to extend the Cloud. >> And David, you said it earlier, there's a trend of ecosystems that are coming onto the Cloud. This is our opportunity to bring the Cloud to an ecosystem, to an existing ecosystem. And if you think about NASDAQ's data center in Carteret, there's an ecosystem of NASDAQ's clients there that are there to be with NASDAQ. And so, it was actually much easier for us as we worked together over a really a four year period, thinking about this and how to make this technological transition, to actually bring the capabilities to that ecosystem, rather than trying to bring the ecosystem to AWS in one of our public regions. And so, that's been our philosophy with Outpost all along. It's actually extending our capabilities that our customers know and love into any environment that they need to be able to use that in. And so to Brad's point about servicing other markets in different countries around the world, it actually gives us that ability to do that very quickly, very nimbly and very succinctly and successfully. >> Did you guys write a working backwards document for this initiative? >> We did. >> Yeah, we actually did. So to be, this is one of the fully exercised. We have a couple of... So by the way, Scott used to work at NASDAQ and we have a number of people who have gone from NASDAQ data to AWS, and from AWS to NASDAQ. So we have adopted, that's one of the things that we think is an effective way to really clarify what you're trying to accomplish with a project. So I know you're a little bit kidding on that, but we did. >> No, I was close. Because I want to go to the like, where are we in the milestone? And take us through kind of what we can expect going forward now that we've worked backwards. >> Yep, we did. >> We did. And look, I think from a milestone perspective, as you heard Brad say, we're very excited that we've stood up MRX in production. Having worked at NASDAQ myself, when you make a change and when you stand up a market that's always a moment where you're working with your community, with your clients and you've got a market-wide call that you're working and you're wanting to make sure that everything goes smoothly. And so, when that call went smoothly and that transition went smoothly I know you were very happy, and in AWS, we were also very happy as well that we hit that milestone within the timeframe that Adena set. And that was very important I know to you. >> Yeah. >> And for us as well. >> Yeah. And our commitment, so the time base of this one was by the end of 2022. So November 7th, checked. We got that one done. >> That's awesome. >> The other one is we said, we wanted the performance to be as good or better than our current platform that we have. And we were putting a new version of our derivative or options software onto this platform. We had confidence because we already rolled it to one market in the US then we rolled it earlier this year and that was last year. And we rolled it to our nordic derivatives market. And we saw really good customer feedback. So we had confidence in our software was going to run. Now we had to marry that up with the Outpost platform and we said we really want to achieve as good or better performance and we achieved better performance, so that's noticeable by our customers. And that one was the biggest question. I think our customers understand when we set a date, we test them with them. We have our national test facility that they can test in. But really the big question was how is it going to perform? And that was, I think one of the biggest proof points that we're really proud about, jointly together. And it took both, it took both of us to really innovate and get the platform right, and we did a number of iterations. We're never done. >> Right. >> But we have a final result that says it is better. >> Well, congratulations. - Thank you. >> It sounds like you guys have done a tremendous job. What can we expect in 2023? From NASDAQ and AWS? Any little nuggets you can share? >> Well, we just came from the partner, the partner Keynote with Adam and Ruba and we had another colleague on stage, so Nick Ciubotariu, so he is actually someone who brought digital assets and cryptocurrencies onto the Venmo, PayPal platform. He joined NASDAQ about a year ago and we announced that in our marketplace, the Amazon marketplace, we are going to offer digital custody, digital assets custody solution. So that is certainly going to be something we're excited about in 2023. >> I know we got to go, but I love this story because it fits so great at the Super cloud but we've learned so much from Amazon over the years. Two pieces of teams, we talked about working backwards, customer obsession, but this is a story of NASDAQ pointing its internal capabilities externally. We're already on that journey and then, bringing that to the Cloud. Very powerful story. I wonder what's next in this, because we learn a lot and we, it's like the NFL, we copy it. I think about product market fit. You think about scientific, you know, go to market and seeing that applied to the financial services industry and obviously other industries, it's really exciting to see. So congratulations. >> No, thank you. And look, I think it's an example of Invent and Simplify, that's another Amazon principle. And this is, I think a great example of inventing on behalf of an industry and then continually working to simplify the way that the industry works with all of us. >> Last question and we've got only 30 seconds left. Brad, I'm going to direct it to you. If you had the opportunity to take over the NASDAQ sign in Times Square and say a phrase that summarizes what NASDAQ and AWS are doing together, what would it say? >> Oh, and I think I'm going to put that up on Monday. So we're going to close the market together and it's going to say, "Modernizing the capital market's infrastructure together." >> Very cool. >> Excellent. Drop the mic. Guys, this was fantastic. Thank you so much for joining us. We appreciate you joining us on the show, sharing your insights and what NASDAQ and AWS are doing. We're going to have to keep watching this. You're going to have to come back next year. >> All right. >> For our guests and for Dave Vellante, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in live enterprise and emerging tech coverage. (soft music)

>> Good afternoon from Vegas, guys and gals. We're so happy that you're with us. This is theCUBE live at AWS re:Invent '22. This is our third day of coverage. We started Monday night, so we're counting that as day one. Loads of conversations we've had already. We know that you know that 'cause you've been watching. I'm here with Dave Vellante. Dave, great to be here with you with somewhere between 50,000 and 70,000 people. And we're excited for our next conversation. We've got two folks joining us who are new to theCUBE, soon will be alumni. Milan Bhatt joins us, the president and head of Cloud at Hexaware. And Nikhil Date, the Director of Engineering and Application Services at Domestic & General. Guys, welcome to the program. >> Thank you >> Thanks for having us. >> So Domestic & General, or D&G, is a customer of Hexaware, but Milan, we want to start with you. Give the audience an overview of Hexaware. What do you do? What's the business model? >> Yeah. So, Hexaware is a technology services company. We are a global partner of AWS, and essentially, we help customers like Domestic & General, you know, accelerate their digital transformation journeys. We like to think of ourselves as a billion dollar startup. And like Amazon, it is always day one at Hexaware. And, you know, I look forward to the conversation, but any company in the world that is looking at cloud-led digital transformation, they have to put Hexaware on the consideration list. Because, you know, not only do we work with a lot of customers, analysts like Gartner, they have rated us as a visionary in helping customers become, you know, digitally enabled, bring better customer experience to their end customers. >> Excellent. Well, we're glad to feature Hexaware on the program. >> Milan: Thank you. >> Nikhil let's bring you into the conversation. Talk to the audience about Domestic & General. What kind of business is it? What's the business model? >> Sure, thank you. So we are, you know, 110-year-old business, right? I mean, we started insuring sheep in Australia, if you believe it, you know, which is quite an origin story. But at the moment, you know, the primary business is keeping our customers world running. So what do I mean by that? We protect in warranty and out-of-warranty care for domestic appliances. You know, TVs, boilers, refrigerators, washing machines, that kind of thing. But we are also a B2B company in the sense that, you know, you might think you are getting a warranty from some of our biggest customers, like Whirlpool or, you know, Bosch, Siemens, or Samsung, but actually it's D&G at the back trying to administer that for you. So, you know, we are in 13 countries. Just launched in the US last year, but big plans. >> So it's really interesting because we all have appliances, and we can relate to, especially, you know pre or post-pandemic, how difficult it is to get service. So you're kind of like, in a way, you've got to build a digital platform like Uber, connecting drivers and passengers, right? And so you've got the supply of individuals who know how to fix stuff, right? And you want to make it as easy as possible for the customer. So was that the genesis of this digital transformation? Can you talk about those business drivers? >> It was, actually, and it's a fantastic point, because trying to become a platform business is what this journey has been all about for us, right? I think, you know, we are a pioneer in what we consider the subscription model. So customers pay a small amount per month as opposed to a big lump sum amount that they have to pay at the point you buy the appliance. And importantly, you can actually buy our product to pay in installments at the point something breaks down. So it's not just something that you buy at the point of sale or at the point you try to register. You can buy it at any time. And the goal really is to have warranty in a box that you can take anywhere, you know, anywhere in the world. So, you know, but it's a great point. Digital transformation is what it is all about. >> And there is a real lack right now of qualified technicians. >> That's right. >> Is there anything within the platform to incent those individuals to participate in your business? >> You know, this is what we consider a multi-tier approach. I think at the moment, the service that we offer is largely top tier, right? So we will get you an engineer that is certified by the manufacturer with the manufacturer warranty. And it's a no fix, no fee model, you know? So, you know, we guarantee either to repair or replace the appliance, you know? That's the model. But you are right, I think in the future stage would be, you know, why wouldn't we want to have anybody who's got the right skills to come in and work off the platform? Absolutely right. >> Nikhil, talk about, you said this is a legacy business, been around for quite some time. You've been there for not quite two years. What drew you to the organization? And where were they in their digital transformation journey? Because I always think legacy companies, this a big challenge, and it's cultural challenge to really transform, but companies these days have no choice. >> Again, a fantastic point, right? I think some of the, you know, 110-year-old business, right? And some of the tech, you would be forgiven for thinking it's that old. But the assets that we had are our people, right? Who are really passionate about the business. And I think what we had to do is to find a partner that can upskill the tech, but also upskill the people at the same time and upskill the delivery model, right? So we've a very traditional left-to-right waterfall, you know, planet first, big upfront planning, and then deliver kind of organization. And by working with a partner such as Hexaware and embracing cloud, because, you know, our first and our go-to will be a SaaS or a cloud provider. And, you know, doing that was the massive agenda that drew me to the company. But I think what is also fair is, you know, digitization or digitalization, is a misunderstood and often abused term, right? Because for the most part, when companies start, and I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but, you know, for the most part, when companies start on this journey, they take a journey that works in the brick and mortar world, and we were a contact center business, and just try to move it to the digital journey, right? It's not a great customer experience. I'll give you an example, right? Now, if you call our agent and say, "Yeah, I'm trying to register an appliance," they will tell you where to look for the serial number. But if you're on a digital channel, you don't know where to look. There's nobody, you know, who can help you. The model number, who remembers the model number of the washing machine they bought, right? I mean, you know, it's stuff like that, you know, which would feel, you know, for a digital native, my son, you know, for example, would think, "How can you even ask a customer for that?" But, you know, it's that change in the model, that's what this is all about. >> Yeah, it's like when you get to go, "What's your account number?" I have no idea what my account number is. So when did this whole project start? How was Hexaware involved? And where did Hexaware start? Like, how did you sort of gauge what the requirement was? Take us through that little- >> Sure. So, you know, when Nikhil and the rest of the management team came in, they came up with a competitive process where, you know, and it is refreshing to remember, I think they've stuck true to their vision. They were very clear that they were not looking for someone who can just digitize their paper processes, but who can help them completely re-imagine, you know, what the new process would look like what the new experience would look like. And, you know, remember, they were running this process at the height of the pandemic, so we couldn't meet anybody in person. We did everything virtual. And we were using cloud technology, but, you know, the way they run the process, they wanted to make sure that a provider brings in a mix of experience and engineering expertise. And that's really hard to find. But equally importantly, you remember those culture sessions that we did? They figured out some very creative ways of making sure that there is a cultural fit. So, for example, they did virtual breakout sessions where, you know, people were sort of asking each other, you know, if you want to have dinner with someone like a celebrity, who would it be? So, you know, these little things to make sure that there is a match and people can actually work. >> Relationship building too. >> The relationship building. It's hard to do in a virtual environment, but it was a competitive process. They looked at us in terms of engineering, you know, experience, our ability to transcend change and run, and, you know, really focus and align to keep their objectives first, right? Work as a true partnership. Do you agree? >> I would agree. And I think, you know, one of the biggest goals here was to make sure that, this is not an arms length vendor relationship, right? You know, this is an extension of our team. So these are our people, you know, for the people that work on D&G, you know, they work in the D&G way, you know, and that means that they can also challenge us, you know, which is quite refreshing, right? People stopping and saying, "Why are you asking me to do this?" You know, it's very refreshing, I think, you know, to work with a partner that is sold on the vision and committed to helping you achieve success. >> That synergy creates that flywheel. And like you said, at D&G, Hexaware, we're a team, we're working together. Nikhil, share with us some of the significant business outcomes that Hexaware services and AWS are helping the company to achieve? Because there's some big numbers there. >> Indeed. Yeah. So, you know, in the digital journey itself, like I said, we are also a B2B business. You know, one of the key challenges is every client wants their own brand, right? So, you know, a journey for customer X has to look like the customer X brand. And our journey for customer Y will have to do the same. You know, when you try to stretch this to a technology problem though, it means that, you know, we were trying to be too many things for too many people, and that slowed things down and increased complexity. So from our point of view, you know, when we started with the digital journey or in the middle of the digital journey, we thought, we need to have a library of reusable components. We need white labeling, right? So there was a root in branch re-engineering of the digital proposition to allow us to, you know, serve multiple clients with the same underlying technology. And that has meant that, you know, in some cases, we are going to market, you know, two, three times faster than what we were. Costs, obviously, you know, 50% cheaper. But, you know, I think the big thing here, and, you know, this is the unstated benefit, is because now there is a common underlying technology innovation that client X wants to do becomes available for client Y. You know, which means that, you know, there's a virtual circle of, you know, constant improvement. So, you know that, from my point of view, that's the big benefit. >> And would you agree that you are still only in the first quarter of a football game? >> Absolutely. >> I think a lot of ambitious plans. So, you know, this is just the beginning. And the way they have built the organization, the way they have driven the culture change, you know, I'm very hopeful for great things to come. >> Paint a picture of the tech. I'm interested in the architecture, and I'm really interested in the data component and how that's affected your business. >> So I mean, you know, multilayered tech architecture, as you can imagine. Then, you know, we still have a legacy, you know, legacy components running off our own PET mainframe, as we like to call it. But, you know, from a forward point of view, what we really want is to allow clients to self-serve, right? Not have to, you know, because at the moment, the only service we can offer is what I call the white glove, right? Which means, you know, somebody has to sit down with us, have a discussion on the requirements, but people should be able to self-serve, you know, look at the catalog of what it is we can do for them and go for it. Data is a very interesting point, right? Because not only are there, you know, geography restrictions around where customer data can go to, obviously, payments and PCI compliance is an issue. But last but not least, you know, some of this data is very, you know, unique to what the clients want to own and manage. And, you know, if you are a, you know, a typical homeowner, you will have appliance from all kinds of manufacturers, right? Many of whom would be our customers. But how much data we can share, because we recognize you as a person, but how much data we can share, there are restrictions. But, you know, building our data abstraction layer allows us to, you know, take care of that. But you're absolutely right, in terms of, But again, the potential for where the data can be mined, because, you know, the engineer also has to be local to where you live. You know, you can't come from 100 miles away. So, you know, the ability to use data to, you know, not just transform our business, but our client's business is phenomenal, you know? >> Do you actually have a mainframe? >> Yes >> We do do. (laughter) >> Adam Selinsky wants to move it into the cloud. (laughter) >> They have every possible technology that you can think of. I mean, 100-year-old business evolved over a period of time. And, you know, if I could add, you know, what has been really impressive about the decision making at D&G is that they have adopted cloud in the right way, right? So they are one of the few customers who have truly taken AWS well architected to heart. They have taken things like, you know, take the right workloads to the cloud and wait to do the right remediations before you take the rest of the workloads to the cloud. They've used native services available on AWS from apps perspective as well as a data perspective. So that's sort of a little bit more color on the technology and architecture. >> But you've essentially SaaSified your business and you basically have D&G cloud that you're delivering to your customers for self-serve. Is that fair? >> That's the vision, yes. The idea is to get there. And, you know, if we assemble what I call, you know, out-the-box solutions in a clever way, then that becomes the platform that we can replicate success on. And at the moment, our business needs what I call boots on the ground. When we are a true platform business, we should be able to operate without having, you know, any presence in country, with the partners leveraging the platform to do what what's next. >> I'm curious, Milan, you said that one of the great things that D&G has done is really adopted cloud in the right way. Do you, Nikhil, think of cloud first or cloud right approach? Because you've got a mainframe, so I'm just wondering if it's more what's right for cloud versus everything cloud first. >> Correct. I mean, I actually, you know, or we actually tend to start even two steps before that, right? I think it's really whether we need to buy or whether we need to build, right? And if we need to buy, then, you know, how easily would that thing that has been bought fit into what is a very complex architecture, as Milan said, right? I mean, any technology you can imagine we probably have it, but we want to simplify it, right? And this is a journey. So which means that, you know, we start with can SaaS product do it? And then we also want to go wherever we are building, then it has to be on the cloud. It has to be designed for scaling. It has to be designed to be in multiple geographies, multiple countries with the relevant data protection baked in. So, you know, that's the decision-thinking process. You know, that the goal is to not, I mean, you know, we had a project started 18 months ago that wanted to buy more tin, but we put a stop to that, right? And saying that, "You know, come on, you can't have that." Not in this day and age, you know, when the cloud can pretty much do everything that you need. >> Do you think of D&G, this is a question for you. We're almost out of time, but I'm just curious, I'm looking at your website, D&G, the experts who repair and replace the household products everyone relies on. Do you think about it as a repair company? Do you think about it as a tech company that delivers these repair services? >> I mean, this is the conversation we have in our teams all the time, right? That when our vision is successful, we will become a tech business. At the moment, I don't think we are, you know? At the moment, I think we are on a journey, you know, because, you know, we are multi-channel, you know, and our customers love us, you know, touch wood. But are we a true tech company? No, but we are getting there, right? I think, you know, that's the plan. >> You're on the journey? >> Yeah. >> Awesome stuff. Last question for each of you, a little bit different. Milan, question for you. You have a billboard or a bumper sticker, whichever, or maybe a sticker for your laptop and it's about Hexaware, and you want to really convey, in a compelling, but really short way, why are we so great? What would that sticker say? >> Awesome. Like I said at the beginning, if you are thinking about a digital transformation, if you are a company that has been around for a long time, you've got to think of us, you know, as a partner. So that's what I would say, because, you know, the purpose of our company is creating smiles through a combination of great people and technology. So that's what we live for. And, you know, brought a smile to me when Nikhil said that our customers love us, and somewhere, we have a small role to play in that. >> I love that. Nikhil, I'm going to ask the same question. I was going to ask you a different one, but I would love to, I mean, we talked a lot about D&G and the incredible business transformation that you've been on. What's that bumper sticker for D&G? What is that bumper sticker for D&G? >> Oh, yeah. Okay. We want keep your world running, right? I mean, you know, from our point of view, you know, you rely on the appliances to keep your home running, and we want you to rely on us to make sure your world keeps running. You know, that's what this is all about. It has to be slick. Touch wood, hopefully, you never have a problem, but if you do, we want to be there, you know, to make sure that your world keeps running. >> I love it. Awesome, guys. Thank you, Milan. Nikhil, thank you so much for joining Dave and me on the program. >> Thank you. I enjoyed the conversation. >> Great partnership. Hexaware, first time on theCUBE, now you're an alumni. You're an alumni too. We appreciate your insights, sharing the story. It's a really compelling story. Thank you. >> And thank you for all the support, Nikhil. >> Of course. >> All right. >> For our guests and for Dave Vellante, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in live enterprise and emerging tech coverage.

(upbeat music) >> Hi everybody. Welcome back to theCUBE as to continue our coverage here at AWS re:Invent '22. We're in the Venetian. Out in Las Vegas, it is Wednesday. And the PaaS is still happening. I can guarantee you that. We continue our series of discussions as part of the "AWS Startup Showcase". This is the "Global Startup Program", a part of that showcase. And I'm joined by two gentlemen today who are going to talk about what CoreStack is up to. One of them is Ez Natarajan, who is the Founder and CEO. Good to have you- (simultaneous chatter) with us today. We appreciate it. Thanks, EZ. >> Nice to meet you, John. >> And Brad Winney who is the area Sales Leader for startups at AWS. Brad, good to see you. >> Good to see you, John. >> Thanks for joining us here on The Showcase. So Ez, first off, let's just talk about CoreStack a little bit for people at home who might not be familiar with what you do. It's all about obviously data, governance, giving people peace of mind, but much deeper than that. I'll let you take it from there. >> So CoreStack is a governance platform that helps customers maximize their cloud usage and get governance at scale. When we talk about governance, we instill confidence through three layers: solving the problems of the CIO, solving the problems of the CTO, solving the problems of the CFO, together with a single pin of class,- >> John: Mm-hmm. >> which helps them achieve continuous holistic automated outcomes at any given time. >> John: Mm-hmm. So, Brad, follow up on that a little bit- >> Yeah. because Ez touched on it there that he's got a lot of stakeholders- >> Right. >> with a lot of different needs and a lot of different demands- >> Mm-hmm. >> but the same overriding emotion, right? >> Yeah. >> They all want confidence. >> They all want confidence. And one of the trickiest parts of confidence is the governance issue, which is policy. It's how do we determine who has access to what, how we do that scale. And across not only start been a process. This is a huge concern, especially as we talked a lot about cutting costs as the overriding driver for 2023. >> John: Mm-hmm. >> The economic compression being what it is, you still have to do this in a secure way and as a riskless way as possible. And so companies like CoreStack really offer core, no pun intended, (Ez laughs) function there where you abstract out a lot of the complexity of governance and you make governance a much more simple process. And that's why we're big fans of what they do. >> So we think governance from a three dimensional standpoint, right? (speaks faintly) How do we help customers be more compliant, secure, achieve the best performance and operations with increased availability? >> Jaohn: Mm-hmm. >> At the same time do the right spend from a cost standpoint. >> Interviewer: Mm-hmm. So when all three dimensions are connected, the business velocity increases and the customer's ability to cater to their customers increase. So our governance tenants come from these three pillars of finance operations, security operations and air operations at cloud operations. >> Yeah. And... Yeah. Please, go ahead. >> Can I (indistinct)? >> Oh, I'm sorry. Just- >> No, that's fine. >> So part of what's going on here, which is critical for AWS, is if you notice a lot of (indistinct) language is at the business value with key stakeholders of the CTO, the CSO and so on. And we're doing a much better job of speaking business value on top of AWS services. But the AWS partners, again, like CoreStack have such great expertise- >> John: Mm-hmm. >> in that level of dialogue. That's why it's such a key part for us, why we're really interested partnering with them. >> How do you wrestle with this, wrestle may not be the right word, but because you do have, as we just went through these litany, these business parts of your business or a business that need access- >> Ez: Mm-hmm. >> and that you need to have policies in place, but they change, right? I mean, and somebody maybe from the financial side should have a window into data and other slices of their business. There's a lot of internal auditing. >> Man: Mm-hmm. >> Obviously, it's got to be done, right? And so just talk about that process a little bit. How you identify the appropriate avenues or the appropriate gateways for people to- >> Sure. >> access data so that you can have that confidence as a CTO or CSO, that it's all right. And we're not going to let too much- >> out to the wrong people. >> Sure. >> Yeah. So there are two dimensions that drive the businesses to look for that kind of confidence building exercise, right? One, there are regulatory external requirements that say that I know if I'm in the financial industry, I maybe need to following NIST, PCI, and sort of compliances. Or if I'm in the healthcare industry, maybe HIPAA and related compliance, I need to follow. >> John: Mm-hmm. >> That's an external pressure. Internally, the organizations based on their geographical presence and the kind of partners and customers they cater to, they may have their own standards. And when they start adopting cloud; A, for each service, how do I make sure the service is secure and it operates at the best level so that we don't violate any of the internal or external requirements. At the same time, we get the outcome that is needed. And that is driven into policies, that is driven into standards which are consumable easily, like AWS offers well-architected framework that helps customers make sure that I know I'm architecting my application workloads in a way that meets the business demands. >> John: Mm-hmm. >> And what CoreStack has done is taken that and automated it in such a way it helps the customers simplify that process to get that outcome measured easily so they get that confidence to consume more of the higher order services. >> John: Okay. And I'm wondering about your relationship as far with AWS goes, because, to me, it's like going deep sea fishing and all of a sudden you get this big 4, 500 pound fish. Like, now what? >> Mm-hmm. >> Now what do we do because we got what we wanted? So, talk about the "Now what?" with AWS in terms of that relationship, what they're helping you with, and the kind of services that you're seeking from them as well. >> Oh, thanks to Brad and the entire Global Startup Ecosystem team at AWS. And we have been part of AWS Ecosystem at various levels, starting from Marketplace to ISV Accelerate to APN Partners, Cloud Management Tools Competency Partner, Co-Sell programs. The team provides different leverages to connect to the entire ecosystem of how AWS gets consumed by the customers. Customers may come through channels and partners. And these channels and partners maybe from WAs to MSPs to SIs to how they really want to use each. >> John: Mm-hmm. >> And the ecosystem that AWS provides helps us feed into all these players and provide this higher order capability which instills confidence to the customers end of the day. >> Man: Absolutely. Right. >> And this can be taken through an MSP. This can be taken through a GSI. This can be taken to the customer through a WA. And that's how our play of expansion into larger AWS customer base. >> Brad: Yeah. >> Brad, from your side of the fence. >> Brad: No, its... This is where the commons of scale come to benefit our partners. And AWS has easily the largest ecosystem. >> John: Mm-hmm. >> Whether or not it's partners, customers, and the like. And so... And then, all the respective teams and programs bring all those resources to bear for startups. Your analogy of of catching a big fish off coast, I actually have a house in Florida. I spend a lot of time there. >> Interviewer: Okay. >> I've yet to catch a big 500 pound fish. But... (interviewer laughs) >> But they're out there. >> But they're definitely out there. >> Yeah. >> And so, in addition to the formalized programs like the Global Partner Network Program, the APN and Marketplace, we really break our activities down with the CoreStacks of the world into two major kind of processes: "Sell to" and "Sell with". And when we say "Sell to", what we're really doing is helping them architect for the future. And so, that plays dividends for their customers. So what do we mean by that? We mean helping them take advantage of all the latest serverless technologies: the latest chip sets like Graviton, thing like that. So that has the added benefit of just lowering the overall cost of deployment and expend. And that's... And we focus on that really extensively. So don't ever want to lose that part of the picture of what we do. >> Mm-hmm. >> And the "Sell with" is what he just mentioned, which is, our teams out in the field compliment these programs like APN and Marketplace with person-to-person in relationship development for core key opportunities in things like FinTech and Retail and so on. >> Interviewer: Mm-hmm. >> We have significant industry groups and business units- >> Interviewer: Mm-hmm. >> in the enterprise level that our teams work with day in and day out to help foster those relationships. And to help CoreStack continue to develop and grow that business. >> Yeah. We've talked a lot about cost, right? >> Yeah. >> But there's a difference between reducing costs or optimizing your spend, right? I mean there- >> Brad: Right. >> Right. There's a... They're very different prism. So in terms of optimizing and what you're doing in the data governance world, what kind of conversations discussions are you having with your clients? And how is that relationship with AWS allowing you to go with confidence into those discussions and be able to sell optimization of how they're going to spend maybe more money than they had planned on originally? >> So today, because of the extra external micro-market conditions, every single customer that we talk to wanting to take a foster status of, "Hey, where are we today? How are we using the cloud? Are we in an optimized state?" >> Interviewer: Mm-hmm. >> And when it comes to optimization, again, the larger customers that we talk to are really bothered about the business outcome and how their services and ability to cater to their customers, right? >> Interviewer: Mm-hmm. >> They don't want to compromise on that just because they want to optimize on the spend. That conversation trickled down to taking a poster assessment first, and then are you using the right set of services within AWS? Are the right set of services being optimized for various requirements? >> Interviewer: Mm-hmm. >> And AWS help in terms of catering to the segment of customers who need that kind of a play through the patent ecosystem. >> John: Mm-hmm. Yeah. We've talked a lot about confidence too, cloud with confidence. >> Brad: Yeah. Yeah. >> What does that mean to different people, you think? I mean, (Brad laughing) because don't you have to feel them out and say "Okay. What's kind of your tolerance level for certain, not risks, but certain measures that you might need to change"? >> I actually think it's flipped the other way around now. I think the risk factor- >> Okay. >> is more on your on-prem environment. And all that goes with that. 'Cause you... Because the development of the cloud in the last 15 years has been profound. It's gone from... That's been the risky proposition now. With all of the infrastructure, all the security and compliance guardrails we have built into the cloud, it's really more about transition and risk of transition. And that's what we see a lot of. And that's why, again, where governance comes into play here, which is how do I move my business from on-prem in a fairly insecure environment relatively speaking to the secure cloud? >> Interviewer: Sure. >> How do I do that without disrupting business? How do I do that without putting my business at risk? And that's a key piece. I want to come back, if I may, something on cost-cutting. >> Interviewer: Sure. >> We were talking about this on the way up here. Cost-cutting, it's the bonfire of the vanities in that in that everybody is talking about cost-cutting. And so we're in doing that perpetuating the very problem that we kind of want to avoid, which is our big cost-cutting. (laughs) So... And I say that because in the venture capital community, what's happening is two things: One is, everybody's being asked to extend their runways as much as possible, but they are not letting them off the hook on growth. And so what we're seeing a lot of is a more nuanced conversation of where you trim your costs, it's not essential, spend, but reinvest. Especially if you've got good strong product market fit, reinvest that for growth. And so that's... So if I think about our playbook for 2023, it's to help good strong startups. Either tune their market fit or now that they good have have good market fit, really run and develop their business. So growth is not off the hook for 2023. >> And then let me just hit on something- >> Yeah. >> before we say goodbye here that you just touched on too, Brad, about. How we see startups, right? AWS, I mean, obviously there's a company focus on nurturing this environment of innovation and of growth. And for people looking at maybe through different prisms and coming. >> Brad: Yeah. >> So if you would maybe from your side of the fence, Ez from CoreStack, about working as a startup with AWS, I mean, how would you characterize that relationship about the kind of partnership that you have? And I want to hear from Brad too about how he sees AWS in general in the startup world. But go ahead. >> It's kind of a mutually enriching relationship, right? The support that comes from AWS because our combined goal is help the customers maximize the potential of cloud. >> Interviewer: Mm-hmm. >> And we talked about confidence. And we talked about all the enablement that we provide. But the partnership helps us get to the reach, right? >> Interviewer: Mm-hmm. >> Reach at scale. >> Interviewer: Mm-hmm. We are talking about customers from different industry verticals having different set of problems. And how do we solve it together so that like the reimbursement that happens, in fact healthcare customers that we repeatedly talk to, even in the current market conditions, they don't want to save. They want to optimize and re-spend their savings using more cloud. >> Interviewer: Mm-hmm. >> So that's the partnership that is mutually enriching. >> Absolutely. >> Yeah. To me, this is easy. I think the reason why a lot of us are here at AWS, especially the startup world, is that our business interests are completely aligned. So I run a pretty significant business unit in a startup neighbor. But a good part of my job and my team's job is to go help cut costs. >> Interviewer: Mm-hmm. >> So tell me... Show me a revenue responsibility position where part of your job is to go cut cost. >> Interviewer: Right. >> It's so unique and we're not a non-profit. We just have a very good long-term view, right? Which is, if we help companies reduce costs and conserve capital and really make sure that that capital is being used the right way, then their long-term viability comes into play. And that's where we have a chance to win more of that business over time. >> Interviewer: Mm-hmm. >> And so because those business interests are very congruent and we come in, we earn so much trust in the process. But I think that... That's why I think we being AWS, are uniquely successful startups. Our business interests are completely aligned and there's a lot of trust for that. >> It's a great success story. It really is. And thank you for sharing your little slice of that and growing slice of that too- >> Yeah. Absolutely. >> from all appearances. Thank you both. >> Thank you, John. >> Thank you very much, John. >> Appreciate your time. >> This is part of the AWS Startup Showcase. And I'm John Walls. You're watching theCUBE here at AWS re:Invent '22. And theCUBE, of course, the leader in high tech coverage.

(upbeat music) >> Hello, friends. Welcome back to The Cube's live coverage of AWS re:Invent 2022. We're in Vegas. Lovely Las Vegas. Beautiful outside, although I have only seen outside today once, but very excited to be at re:Invent. We're hearing between 50,000 and 70,000 attendees and it's insane, but people are ready to be back. This morning's keynote by CEO Adam Selipsky was full of great messages, big focus on data, customers, partners, the ecosystem. So excited. And I'm very pleased to welcome back one of our alumni to the program, David Shacochis, VP Enterprise Portfolio Strategy Product Management at Lumen. David, welcome back. >> Lisa, good to be here. The Five Timers Club. >> You are in the Five Timers Club. This is David's fifth appearance on the show. And we were talking before we went live- >> Do we do the jacket now and do we do the jacket later? >> Yeah, the jacket will come later. >> Okay. >> The Five Timers Club, like on SNL. We're going to have that for The Cube. We'll get you measured up and get that all fitted for you. >> That'd be better. >> So talk a little bit about Lumen. 'Cause last time you hear it wasn't Lumen. >> We weren't Lumen last time. So this is the first time... last time we were here on The Cube at re:Invent. This was probably 2019 or so. We were a different company. The company was called CenturyLink back then. We rebranded in 2020 to really represent our identity as a delivery of...as a solutions provider over our fiber network. So Lumen is the corporate brand, the company name. It represents basically a lot of the fiber that's been laid throughout the world and in North America and in enterprise metropolitan areas over the past 10 to 15 years. You know, companies like CenturyLink and Quest and Level 3, all those companies have really rolled up into building that core asset of the network. So Lumen is really the brand for the 21st century for the company, really focused on delivering services for the enterprise and then delivering a lot of value added services around that core network asset. >> So rebranding during the pandemic, what's been the customer feedback and sentiment? >> Yeah, I think customers have really actually appreciated it as certainly a more technology oriented brand, right? Sort of shifting away a little bit from some of the communications and telecom background of the company and the heritage. And while those assets that were built up during that period of time have been substantial, and we still build off of those assets going forward, really what a lot of the customer feedback has been is that it puts us in a posture to be a little bit more of a business solutions provider for customers, right? So there's a lot of things that we can do with that core network asset, the fiber networking a lot of the services that we launch on that in terms of public IP, you know, public internet capacity, private networking, private VPNs, VoIP and voice services. These are services that you'd expect from a company like that. But there's a lot of services inside the Lumen brand that you might surprise you, right? There's an edge computing capability that can deliver five milliseconds of latency within 95% of North American enterprise. >> Wow. >> There's a threat detection lab that goes and takes all of the traffic flowing over the public side of our network and analyzes it in a data lake and turns it into threat intelligence that we then offer off to our customers on a subscription basis. There's a production house that goes and, you know, does production networking for major sports arenas and sports events. There's a wide range of services inside of Lumen that really what the Lumen brand allows us to do is start talking about what those services can do and what networking can do for our customers in the enterprise in a more comprehensive way. >> So good changes, big brand changes for Lumen in the last couple of years. Also, I mean, during a time of such turmoil in the world, we've seen work change dramatically. You know, everybody...companies had to pivot massively quickly a couple years ago. >> Yep. >> Almost approaching three years ago, which is crazy amazing to be digital because they had to be able to survive. >> They did >> Now they're looking at being able to thrive, but now we're also in this hybrid work environment. The future of work has changed. >> Totally. >> Almost permanently. >> Yep. >> How is Lumen positioned to address some of the permanent changes to the work environments? Like the last time we were at re:Invented- >> Yeah. >> In person. This didn't exist. >> That's right. So really, it's one of the things we talk to our customers almost the most about is this idea of the future of work. And, you know, we really think about the future of work as about, you know, workers and workloads and the networks that connect them. You think about how much all of those demands are shifting and changing, right? What we were talking about, and it's very easy for all of us to conceptualize what the changing face of the worker looks like, whether those are knowledge workers or frontline workers the venues in which people are working the environments and that connectivity, predictability of those work desk environments changes so significantly. But workloads are changing and, you know we're sitting here at a trade show that does nothing but celebrate the transformation of workloads. Workloads running in ways in business logic and capturing of data and analysis of data. The changing methodologies and the changing formats of workloads, and then the changing venues for workloads. So workloads are running in places that never used to be data centers before. Workloads are running in interesting places and in different and challenging locations for what didn't used to be the data center. And so, you know, the workloads and the workloads are in a very dynamic situation. And the networks that connect them have to be dynamic, and they have to be flexible. And that's really why a lot of what Lumen invests in is working on the networks that connect workers and workloads both from a visibility and a managed services perspective to make sure that we're removing blind spots and then removing potential choke points and capacity issues, but then also being adaptable and dynamic enough to be able to go and reconfigure that network to reach all of the different places that, you know, workers and workloads are going to evolve into. What you'll find in a lot of cases, you know, the workers...a common scenario in the enterprise. A 500 person company with, you know, five offices and maybe one major facility. You know, that's now a 505 office company. >> Right. >> Right? The challenge of the network and the challenge of connecting workers and workloads is really one of the main conversations we have with our customers heading into this 21st century. >> What are some of the things that they're looking forward to in terms of embracing the future of work knowing this is probably how it's going to remain? >> Yeah, I think companies are really starting to experiment carefully and start to think about what they can do and certainly think about what they can do in the cloud with things like what the AWS platform allows them to do with some of the AWS abstractions and the AWS services allow them to start writing software for, and they're starting to really carefully, but very creatively and reach out into their you know, their base of enterprise data, their base of enterprise value to start running some experiments. We actually had a really interesting example of that in a session that Lumen shared here at re:Invent yesterday. You know, for the few hundred people that were there. You know, I think we got a lot of great feedback. It was really interesting session about the...really gets at this issue of the future of work and the changing ways that people are working. It actually was a really cool use case we worked on with Major League Baseball, Fox Sports, and AWS with the... using the Lumen network to essentially virtualize the production truck. Right? So you've all heard that, you know, the sports metaphor of, you know, the folks in the booth were sitting there started looking down and they're saying, oh great job by the guys or the gals in the truck. >> Yep. >> Right? That are, you know, that bring in that replay or great camera angle. They're always talking about the team and their production truck. Well, that production truck is literally a truck sitting outside the stadium. >> Yep. >> Full of electronics and software and gear. We were able to go and for a Major League Baseball game in...back in August, we were able to go and work with AWS, using the Lumen network, working with our partners and our customers at Fox Sports and virtualize all of that gear inside the truck. >> Wow. That's outstanding. >> Yep. So it was a live game. You know, they simulcast it, right? So, you know, we did our part of the broadcast and many hundreds of people, you know, saw that live broadcast was the first time they tried doing it. But, you know, to your point, what are enterprises doing? They're really starting to experiment, sort to push the envelope, right? They're kind of running things in new ways, you know, obviously hedging their bets, right? And sort of moving their way and sort of blue-green testing their way into the future by trying things out. But, you know, this is a massive revenue opportunity for a Major League Baseball game. You know, a premier, you know, Sunday night baseball contest between the Yankees and the Cardinals. We were able to go and take the entire truck, virtualize it down to a small rack of connectivity gear. Basically have that production network run over redundant fiber paths on the Lumen network up into AWS. And AWS is where all that software worked. The technical director of the show sitting in his office in North Carolina. >> Wow. >> The sound engineer is sitting in, you know, on his porch in Connecticut. Right? They were able to go and do the work of production anywhere while connected to AWS and then using the Lumen network, right? You know, the high powered capabilities of Lumens network underlay to be able to, you know, go and design a network topology and a worked topology that really wasn't possible before. >> Right. It's nice to hear, to your point, that customers are really embracing experimentation. >> Right. >> That's challenging to, obviously there was a big massive forcing function a couple of years ago where they didn't have a choice if they wanted to survive and eventually succeed and grow. >> Yeah. >> But the mindset of experimentation requires cultural change and that's a hard thing to do especially for I would think legacy organizations like Major League Baseball, but it sounds like they have the appetite. >> Yeah. They have the interest. >> They've been a fairly innovative organization for some time. But, you know, you're right. That idea of experimenting and that idea of trying out new things. Many people have observed, right? It's that forcing function of the pandemic that really drove a lot of organizations to go and make a lot of moves really quickly. And then they realized, oh, wait a minute. You know... I guess there's some sort of storytelling metaphor in there at some point of people realizing, oh wait, I can swim in these waters, right? I can do this. And so now they're starting to experiment and push the envelope even more using platforms like AWS, but then using a lot of the folks in the AWS partner network like Lumen, who are designing and sort of similarly inspired to deliver, you know, on demand and virtualized and dynamic capabilities within the core of our network and then within the services that our network can and the ways that our network connects to AWS. All of that experimentation now is possible because a lot of the things you need to do to try out the experiment are things you can get on demand and you can kind of pat, you can move back, you can learn. You can try new things and you can evolve. >> Right. >> Yep. >> Right. Absolutely. What are some of the things that you're excited about as, you know, here was this forcing function a couple years ago, we're coming out of that now, but the world has changed. The future of work as you are so brilliantly articulated has changed permanently. What are you excited about in terms of Lumen and AWS going forward? As we saw a lot of announcements this morning, big focus on data, vision of AWS is really that flywheel with Adams Selipsky is really, really going. What are you excited about going forward into 2023? >> Yeah, I mean we've been working with AWS for so long and have been critical partners for so long that, you know, I think a lot of it is continuation of a lot of the great work we've been doing. We've been investing in our own capabilities around the AWS partner network. You know, we're actually in a fairly unique position, you know, and we like to think that we're that unique position around the future of work where between workers, workloads and the networks that connect them. Our fingers are on a lot of those pulse points, right? Our fingers are on at really at the nexus of a lot of those dynamics. And our investment with AWS even puts us even more so in a position to go where a lot of the workloads are being transformed, right? So that's why, you know, we've invested in being one of the few network operators that is in the AWS partner network at the advanced tier that have the managed services competency, that have the migration competency and the network competency. You can count on one hand the number of network operators that have actually invested at that level with AWS. And there's an even smaller number that is, you know, based here in the United States. So, you know, I think that investment with AWS, investment in their partner programs and then investment co-innovation with AWS on things like that MLB use case really puts us in a position to keep on doing these kinds of things within the AWS partner network. And that's one of the biggest things we could possibly be excited about. >> So what does the go to market look like? Is it Lumen goes in, brings in AWS, vice versa? Both? >> Yeah, so a lot of being a member of the AWS partner network you have a lot of flexibility. You know, we have a lot of customers that are, you know, directly working with AWS. We have a lot of customers that would basically look to us to deliver the solution and, you know, and buy it all as a complete turnkey capability. So we have customers that do both. We have customers that, you know, just look to Lumen for the Lumen adjacent services and then pay, you know, pay a separate bill with AWS. So there's a lot of flexibility in the partner network in terms of what Lumen can deliver as a service, Lumen can deliver as a complete solution and then what parts of its with AWS and their platform factors into on an on-demand usage basis. >> And that would all be determined I imagine by what the customer really needs in their environment? >> Yeah, and sort of their own cloud strategy. There's a lot of customers who are all in on AWS and are really trying to driving and innovating and using some of the higher level services inside the AWS platform. And then there are customers who kind of looked at AWS as one of a few cloud platforms that they want to work with. The Lumen network is compatible and connected to all of them and our services teams are, you know, have the ability to go and let customers sort of take on whatever cloud posture they need. But if they are all in on AWS, there's, you know. Not many networks better to be on than Lumen in order to enable that. >> With that said, last question for you is if you had a bumper sticker or a billboard. Lumen's rebranded since we last saw you. What would that tagline or that phrase of impact be on that bumper sticker? >> Yeah, I'd get in a lot of trouble with our marketing team if I didn't give the actual bumper sticker for the company. But we really think of ourselves as the platform for amazing things. The fourth industrial revolution, everything going on in terms of the future of work, in terms of the future of industrial innovation, in terms of all the data that's being gathered. You know, Adam in the keynote this morning really went into a lot of detail on, you know, the depth of data and the mystery of data and how to harness it all and wrangle it all. It requires a lot of networking and a lot of connectivity. You know, for us to acquire, analyze and act on all that data and Lumen's platform for amazing things really helps forge that path forward to that fourth industrial revolution along with great partners like AWS. >> Outstanding. David, it's been such a pleasure having you back on The Cube. We'll get you fitted for that five timers club jacket. >> It sounds good. (Lisa laughs) >> I'll be back. >> Thanks so much for your insights and your time and well done with what you guys are doing at Lumen and AWS. >> Thanks Lisa. >> For David Shacochis, I'm Lisa Martin. You've been watching The Cube hopefully all day. This is our first full day of coverage at AWS re:Invent '22. Stick around. We'll be back tomorrow, and we know we're going to see you then. Have a great night. (upbeat music)

(mellow music) >> Oh, welcome back to theCUBE. We continue our coverage here at AWS re:Invent 22. We're in the Venetian in Las Vegas, and this place is hopping. I'm tell you what. It is a nearly standing room only that exhibit floor is jam packed, and it's been great to be along for the ride here on Accenture's sponsorship at the Executive summit as well. We'll talk about Pfizer today, you know them quite well, one of the largest biopharmaceutical companies in the world but their tech footprint is impressive, to say the least. And to talk more about that is Wes Barnes, senior Director of Pfizer's Digital Hosting Solutions. Wes, good to see you, sir. >> Good to meet you, John. >> And Jon Harrison, the North American lead for Infrastructure and engineering at Accenture. Jon, good to see you as well. >> Good to see you as well. >> Thanks for joining us. >> Happy to be here. >> Alright, so let's jump in. Pfizer, we make drugs, right? >> Pharmaceuticals. >> Yes. >> Among the most preeminent, as I said biopharms in the world. But your tech capabilities and your tech focus as we were talking about earlier, has changed dramatically in the 18 years that you've been there. >> Yep. >> Now, talk about that evolution a little bit to where you were and what you have to be now. >> Yeah, yeah. It's interesting. When I started at Pfizer, IT was an enabling function. It was akin to HR or our facilities function. And over the past couple years, it's dramatically changed. Where Digital now is really at the center of everything we do across Pfizer. You know it really is a core strategic element of our business. >> Yeah. And those elements that you were talking about, just in terms of whether it's research, whether it's your patients, I don't want to go through the laundry lists the litany of things, but the touch points with data and what you need it to do for you in terms of you know, computations, what you, the list is long. It's pretty impressive. >> Yeah, yeah, for sure yeah. >> I mean, shed some light on that for us. >> We cannot release a medicine without the use of technology. And if you think about research now, a huge component of our research is computational chemistry. Manufacturing medicines now is a practice in using data and analytics and predictive machine learning and analytics capabilities to help us determine how to best you know, apply the capabilities to deliver the outcomes that we need. The way in which we connect with patients and payers now is wholly digital. So it's an entirely different way of operating than it was 10 years ago. >> And the past three years, pretty remarkable in many respects, to say the least, I would think, I mean, John, you've seen what Pfizer's been up to, talk about maybe just this, the recent past and all that has happened and what they've been able to do. >> Yeah, I mean, what is so exciting to me about working with a company like Pfizer and working in life sciences more broadly is the impact that they make on patients around the world world, right? I mean, think about those past three years and Pfizer stepped up and met the moment for all of us, right? And as we talk a little bit about the role that we played together with Pfizer with AWS in their journey to the cloud, it's so motivating for myself personally it's so motivating for every single person on the team that we ask to spend nights and weekends migrating things to the cloud, creating new capabilities, knowing that at the end of the day, the work that they're doing is making the world a healthier place. >> Yeah, we talk so much about modernization now, right? And it's, but it kind of means different things to different people depending on where you're coming into the game, right? If you've been smart and been planning all along then this is not a dramatic shift in some cases though, for others it is. Right? >> Yeah. >> Traumatic in some cases for some people. >> For sure. >> For Pfizer, I mean talk about how do you see modernization and what does it mean to your operations? >> Following our success of the COVID program of 2021, I mean it became evident to us that, you know we needed to maintain a new pace of innovation and in fact try to find ways to accelerate that pace of innovation. And as I said earlier everything we do at Pfizer is centered around digital. But despite that, and despite 10 years of consolidating infrastructure and moving towards modern technology, last year, only 10% of Pfizer's infrastructure was in the native public cloud. So we had a problem to solve. In fact, I remember, you know, we had to build up our clinical systems to support the volume of work that we were doing for COVID-19 vaccine. We were rolling things into our data center to build up the capacity to achieve what we needed to achieve. Moving to the public cloud became more imperative to try to achieve the scale and the modern capabilities that we need. >> And so where did you come into play here with this? Because obviously as a partner you're right alongside for the ride but you saw these inherent challenges that they had and how did Accenture answer the bell there? >> Well, so look, I mean we saw Pfizer react to the pandemic. We saw them seize the moment. We talked together about how IT needed to move quicker and quicker towards the cloud to unlock capabilities that would serve Pfizer's business well into the future. And together we laid out some pretty ambitious goals. I mean, really moving at a velocity in a pace that I think for both Accenture and AWS surpassed the velocity and pace that we've done anywhere else. >> Yeah, right, yeah. >> So we've set out on an ambitious plan together. You know, I was kind of reflecting about some of the successes, what went well what didn't in preparation for re:Invent. And you know, many of the folks that'll listen to this will remember the old days of moving data centers when you'd have a war room you'd have a conference bridge open the whole time. Someone would be running around the tile floor in the data center, do a task, call back up to the bridge and say, what do I do next, right? Then when I think about what we did together at Pfizer in moving towards the public cloud, I mean, we had weekends most weekends where we were running a wave with 10,000 plus discrete activities. >> Yeah. >> Wow. >> Right, so that old model doesn't scale. >> Right. >> And we really anchored, >> You have a very crowded data center with a lot of people running into each other. >> You'd have a whole lot of people running around. But we really anchored to an Accenture capability that we call myNav Migrate. I know you guys have talked about it here before so I won't go into that. But what we found is that we approached this problem of velocity not as a technical problem to solve for but as a loading and optimization problem of resources. Right, thought about it just a little bit different way and made sure that we could programmatically control command and control of the program in a way that people didn't have to wait around all Saturday afternoon to be notified that their next activity was ready, right? They could go out, they could live their day and they could get a notification from the platform that says, hey it's about your turn. Right, they could claim it they could do it, they could finish it, and that was really important to us. I mean, to be able to control the program in that type of way at scale. >> Yeah, by the way, the reason we went as fast it was a deliberate choice and you'll talk to plenty of folks who have a five year journey to the public cloud. And the reason we wanted to move as fast as we did and Jon talked about some of it, we wanted to get the capabilities to the business as quickly as we could. The pace of innovation was such that we had to offer native cloud capabilities we had to offer quickly. We also knew that by compressing the time it took to get to the cloud, we could focus the organization get it done as economically as possible but then lift all boats with the tide and move the organization forward in terms of the skills and the capabilities that we need to deliver modern outcomes. >> So, you know, we talk about impacts internally, obviously with your processes, but beyond that, not just scientists not just chemists, but to your, I mean, millions of customers, right? We're talking, you know, globally here. What kind of impacts can you see that directly relate to them, and benefits that they're receiving by this massive technical move you've made? >> Pfizer's mission is breakthroughs that change patient lives. I mean, the work that we do the work that everybody does within Pfizer is about delivering therapies that, you know provide health outcomes that make people live longer, live healthier lives. For us, modernizing our infrastructure means that we can enable the work of scientists to find novel therapies faster or find things that perhaps couldn't have been found any other way without some of the modern technologies that we're bringing to bear. Saving money within infrastructure and IT is treasure that we can pour back into the important areas of research or development or manufacturing. We're also able to, you know, offer an ecosystem and a capability in which we connect with patients differently through digital mechanisms. And modern cloud enables that, you know, using modern digital experiences and customer experience, and patient experience platforms means that we can use wearable devices and mobile technologies and connect to people in different ways and offer solutions that just didn't exist a couple years ago. >> And so, I mean, you're talking about IoT stuff too, right? >> 100%. >> It's way out on the edge and personal mobile, in a mobile environment. And so challenges in terms of you know, data governance and compliance and security, all these things, right? They come into play because it's personal health information. So how, as you've taken them, you know to this public cloud environment how much of a factor are those considerations? Because, you know, this is not just a product a service, it's a live human being. >> Yeah. I mean, you start with that, you think about it through the process and you think about it afterwards, right, I mean, that has to be a core factor in every stage of the program, and it was. >> So in, in terms of where you are now, then, okay, it's not over. >> It's never over. >> I mean, you know, as good as you are today and as fast as you are and as accurate and as efficient. >> Yeah. >> Got to get better, right? You got to stay competitive. >> Yeah. >> So where do you find that? Because, you know, with powers being what they are with speed and what it is how much more is there to squeeze out of this rock? >> There's a lot more to squeeze out of the rock. If you think about what we've done over the past year it's about creating sort of a new minimum viable product for infrastructure. So we've sort of raised the bar and created an environment upon which we can continue to innovate that innovation is going to continue sort of forever at this point. You know, the next focus for us is how to identify the business processes that deliver the greatest value ultimately to our patients. And use the modern platform that we've just built to improve those processes to deliver things faster, deliver new capabilities. Pfizer is making a huge investment in digital medicines therapies that are delivered through smart devices through wearables using, as I said technology that didn't exist before. That wouldn't be possible without the platform that we've built. So over the past year, we've come a long way but I think that we've effectively set the table for all of the things that are yet to come. >> So, Jon, how do you then, as you've learned a lot about life science or, and certainly Pfizer with what they're up to, how do you then apply, you know, what you know about their world to what you know about the tech world and make it actionable for growth to make it actionable for, for future expansion? >> Yeah, I mean, we start by doing it together, right? I think that's a really important part. Accenture brings a wealth of knowledge, both industry experience and expertise, technology experience and expertise. We work together with our clients like Pfizer with our partners like AWS to bring the best across that power of three to meet clients where they're at to understand where they want to go, and then create a bespoke approach that meets their business needs. And that's effectively what we're doing now, right? I mean, if you think about the phase that we've just went through, I mean, a couple of fast facts here no pun intended, right? 7,800 server instances across 11 operating system versions 7,500 databases across 20 database versions, right? 4,700 applications, 350,000 migration activities managed across an eight month period. >> In eight months. >> Yeah. But that's not the goal, right? The goal is now to take, to Wes' point that platform that's been developed and leverage that to the benefit of the business ultimately to the benefit of the patient. >> You know, why them, we have we've talked a lot about Pfizer, but why Accenture? What, what, what's, 'cause it's got to be a two way street, right? >> We've had a long partnership with Accenture. Accenture supports a huge component of our application environment at Pfizer and has for quite a long time. Look, we didn't make it easy on them. We put them up against a large number of world class SIs. But look, Accenture brought, you know, sort of what I think of as the trifecta here. They brought the technical capabilities and knowledge of the AWS environment. They brought the ability to really understand the business outcomes that we were trying to achieve and a program leadership capability that, you know I think is world class. And Jon talked about myNav, you know, we recognized that doing what we were trying to do in the time that we were doing it required new machinery, new analytics and data capabilities that just didn't exist. Automation didn't exist. Some people experience capabilities that would allow us to interface with application owners and users at a velocity and a pace and a scale that just hasn't been seen before at Pfizer. Accenture brought all three of those things together and I think they did a great job helping us get to where we need to be. >> When you hear Jon rattle through the stats like he just did, right? We talk about all, I mean, not that I'm going to ask you to pat yourself on the back but do you ever, >> He should. >> Does it blow your mind a little bit, honestly that you're talking about that magnitude of activity in that compressed period of time? That's extraordinary. >> It's 75% of our global IT footprint now in the public cloud, which is fantastic. I mean, look, I think the timing was right. I think Pfizer is in a little bit of a unique position coming off of COVID. We are incredibly motivated to keep the pace up, I mean across all lines of business. So, you know what we found is a really willing leadership team, executive leadership team, digital leadership team to endorse a change of this magnitude. >> Well, it's a great success story. It's beyond impressive. So congratulations to both you on that front and certainly you wish you continued success down the road as well. >> Thank you. >> Thank you gentlemen. >> Thank you. >> Good job. >> Pfizer, and boy, you talk about a job well done. Just spectacular. All right, you are watching our coverage here on theCUBE, we're at the AWS re:Invent 22 show. This is Executive Summit sponsored by Accenture and you're watching theCUBE the leader in high tech coverage.

(upbeat music) >> Welcome back to Las Vegas, guys and girls. We're so happy that you're with us. This is our first full day of coverage live on theCube at AWS re:Invent '22. We're in Vegas, as I said at the Venetian Expo one of the biggest places to host, and there's probably about 50,000 people here or so. Lisa Martin and Dave Vellante Dave, we've had such great conversations. We talked about data, data, data. Every company is a data company. The most important thing is to make sure that data is accessible, that there's insights gained from it, but that it's protected and recoverable should anything happen. >> Yeah, security is the most important topic right now. We all know that it's the number one priority. The Cloud has changed the security model. the shared responsibility model is great, but at the same time, now you got shared responsibilities across multiple clouds, your developers are being asked to do more, right? It kind of the audit is like the last line of defense. So what the ecosystem does with AWS is really make the CISO's job easier. As opposed to, I mean AWS is a friendly place for security companies and I'm excited to talk about that. >> Yeah, we're going to be unpacking that. Rick Holtman is here, the VP of Advertising and Media Security at Human Security. Rick, welcome to theCUBE. >> Oh, thank you so much. Thanks for having me on. >> Pleasure to have you on here. So talk to us about Human Security. What do you do, what are the differentiators and what's in the name? >> Sure. Human is a cybersecurity company. It's been around for about 12 years right now, and our mission is truly to disrupt the economics of cyber crime. And right now, businesses are under attack like they have not been before. There's been a proliferation of bots on site that are truly hitting people's businesses. And what everyone will understand is that when bots hit your site and permeate your business, you'll never end up with a positive business outcome. >> Let's just say. What are in terms of competitive differentiators, when you're in customer conversations, what are those top three things that you say, this is why you go Human. >> Yeah, and that's great. This is why you go Human. We have a tremendous sensor network and what that gives us is observability. Because of our clients and partners, we're actually able to see 20 trillion transactions a week that we filter. And what that does is enables us to look across a broad spectrum of industry. Because of our partner networks, we're able to see all the media transacted across this ecosystem. And what we're working to do is preserve and protect that. So when we work with an SSP, DSP, ad servers and truly the pillars of technology across media, those are our core clients. And we very quickly, in under 10 milliseconds, let them know is this a bot or a human being you're about to serve an ad to, which is paramount to saving them money and not wasting their precious ad dollars. >> So what am I buying from you? Is it a subscription? Explain that. >> Sure. You're buying a subscription to the Human Defense Platform, and across that platform we've got multiple cyber tools. And what we do is we'll take different combinations of those tools and create a specific solution to address a use case. Each one of these businesses is very unique, so we had to be very flexible and malleable with the tools that we use and be able to create custom solutions, which is really what sets us apart in market. >> What are some of the key use cases that you're helping customers to address? >> Sure. It can be anything from simply guarding a website, and actually providing insights and the ability to mitigate bots, it can be guarding against account takeover, form fills. There are so many ways and attack vectors right now for people to get us at that we've got multiple disciplinary ways of looking at how to deploy solutions. It is going to continue to grow because we're seeing more and more new platforms and new types of innovation. A great example is in-game advertising. It is very new, but the industry is starting to look at it and say, hey, we know as growth comes, we're going to see fraud. How do we get out in front of that? How do we make sure that we don't have the same issue we had with CTV? Explosive growth happen before standards were in place, and now we're playing catch up and it's a huge issue. >> How are you doing that as the fraudsters are just getting more and more sophisticated? >> And that's really the problem. I think you hit it on the head. They'll continually change how they attack. They'll continually put resources behind it. And that's why I talk about disrupting the economics of cyber crime because the more we're able to mitigate and stop this, we actually make the cost of attack more and more expensive. Eventually, they're going to move on to a softer target and we want to harden up all of our clients so they're not that soft target. >> I always say, you're in the denominator business You get the bigger denominator, less value so they'll move on to somewhere else. What is your secret sauce? Is it your data? Is it your humans? >> You know, it's actually really three pillars. Part of what we talked about, which is observability. How much we're able to see because of the vast view through our partner network. And that's the other piece is this partner network. So we have what we'll call collective protection because we have so many different data inputs and understanding or what we'll call signal that we're able to interpret. And that is really one of our large differentiators. The last piece is disruption. So we'll use both the signal, our network, and truly go after these fraudsters and actually penalize 'em. And we are responsible for partly one of the largest ad fraud take downs, and someone is sitting in jail today because of it. >> Can you explain the anatomy of an ad hack? Like, what's that look like? I mean, I'm sure there's a lot of different profiles, but what's a common thing? >> And there's a few different profiles, right? One could simply be bots hitting your site, your homepage, right? That could skew data that will be used by a marketing team to make strategic decisions for a business. Form fills, account takeovers, there's all these different types of attack vectors. And then what we also specialize in across the programmatic industry is really reading what we'll call a bid stream. All these pieces of data that are going to come in, and that's how we can actually take a look at the device, the IP, and some of these signals when you put them all together, they give us a true picture of is this a human being or an automated bot swarm trying to permeate a business? >> Okay, and the automated bot swarm. So take it from the hacker's point of view. What's their objective of, you know, hitting you with those bots? What happens after they flood the zone? >> It really depends what they want. In certain cases it could be to actually take over someone's account and buy things. It can be, again, hitting the marketing component and actually driving differentiation on someone's site with form fills and surveys. So there's lots of different ways that they come to us. Inside the bid streams we're able to stop quickly because we're really high up in the actual food chain of that technology. So before some of these ad servers make a single decision, they'll make a call to Human and we'll quickly tell them serve this ad or do not. >> And the profile is largely criminals, not so much nation-state attack, or is it? >> Well, it really could be a little bit of everybody. That's the toughest part to tell. I would say we deal mostly with criminals more than I think nation-states. And people that are simply going after money, and when they see soft targets and people that don't have either they're site hardened or a true understanding of what they're fighting against, they get taken advantage of very quickly. >> What are some of the positive business outcomes that your customers are achieving? Maybe you have a favorite customer story example that you think really shines light on the value that Human is delivering. >> Sure. There's a huge customer inside the media ecosystem, and they truly serve as the gatekeepers or barriers to a lot of fraud. They look at Human as a strategic partner to make sure that when we bring on customers, they're all above board and we are not actually allowing anyone to permeate this advertising and media ecosystem with fraud. So we work hand in glove with lots of the largest platforms across media to really make sure this ecosystem is protected as it can be. >> So- >> You have the sets... Oh, go ahead please. I'm sorry. >> I was going to say, but you do more than media, is that right? >> Absolutely. We have a tremendous enterprise side of our business as well. And that is looking at financials, hospitality companies, travel companies. We really work across a full ecosystem. Bots aren't siloed. They don't care what industry you're in. So we set up industry expertise and domain expertise both across the media spectrum, as well as other components so that we can go as deep as we need to to really mitigate this. >> So you've got this huge observation space, this kind of sensor network if you will. what's the proportionality between the number of channels that we've seen evolve, and the way that that attackers are approaching the hacks? >> Sure. I think, you know, when we look at channels or platforms, the moment a new platform opens up, it gets attacked and we're continually seeing this. So the minute there is money moving towards any sort of industry, you'll see fraud right behind it. So we very carefully track industries, and we make sure we understand the changes and evolutions that are happening so we can get out in front. And a great example is in-game advertising and audio in-game advertising. They're brand new and we're starting to see money shift there for the first time. So those are the companies that have come to us immediately and said, hey, we know what's coming next. The money's here, fraud's on the way, how can Human help us? >> We haven't talked about 5G. It's rare that we don't talk about 5G, but how is that going to affect your customers? >> 5G is really going to give everybody ubiquity in terms of access, right? The more access we have, it allows your device `to become an attack vector. >> It's going to open up more channels. >> Rick: That's right. That's right. >> And so how are you planning as that becomes more mainstream to help customers combat that? As things just keep changing, there's so much flux going on. >> And that's it. You know, cyber is polymorphic. It will continue to change on us. So we are constantly evolving, and one of the things I always like to talk about with Human is the depth of the talent inside the company. And we source cyber talent globally, truly globally. All over the world, we have humans working with extreme expertise. So we've got this global perspective of what's happening everywhere in the world right now. And we're really leveraging that tremendously to fight the economics of cyber crime. >> How are you helping with your expertise at Human, companies address the massive skills gap in cybersecurity? >> Well, that's exactly it. I think there's a lot of education going on. When we meet customers or prospects, we make sure they understand the gravity of the situation and make sure we can help them see and provide insights so they understand who's attacking them, what they're being attacked with, and how to fight back. >> So what's the next step for your technology approach? How should we think about your roadmap? What are your customers asking you 'cause it's hard, right? Like you said, it's polymorphic. Sometimes it's hard to predict, but at the same time, you know, it's like you defend against yourself. You know, you say, okay let's flip the equation. You know, where are weaknesses? What are you guys thinking about in the future? >> Sure, it's a great question. We've continued to build out the Human defense platform. We merged with another company about six months ago, and we just acquired a company as well. The reason we continue on this growth path is to continue to put products and services in place so that we can continue to grow and really actually mitigate against all the different potential attacks out there. So we'll continue to add products, we'll continue to add services because as we see more and more attacks coming, we've got a greater understanding of the how and the why. So we're actually building out products that specifically hit these new pockets in industry so we can get there first and really create a beachhead. >> And how do you work with AWS? >> Sure, AWS is strategic partner and they've done a great job of helping lean in with us. We're not only working with AWS, but working across their ecosystem and working with some of their partners as well and some of their clients as well. So we're really standing up this Human Defense Platform for our partners and direct clients as well. >> Can you give us any examples of that? >> I'm not really allowed to name names when it comes to that. I apologize, but it's truly across their entire partner network. >> Got it. What are some of the things that you've heard? We're only at day one, obviously of re:Invent '22. Anything that you've heard today, maybe during the keynote or some of the things on the show floor that really excite you about the direction that AWS is moving, and the opportunities that it's going to deliver to Human? >> Sure. Absolutely. I think one of the things that was mentioned today was their clean room initiative, and I think that is an excellent place where Human has a great fit. And I think that our filtering technology and our layer there will really make sure that a clean room stays clean, and that the data that is actually joined and used is pure data and not rife with any bots. >> Got it. Humansecurity.com. Last question, Rick. If you had a bumper sticker to put on a fancy shiny new car and it was about Human, what would it say? >> It would say, know who's real. Keep it human. >> Love it. Know who's real, keep it human. Rick, thank you so much for joining us on the program. >> Thanks so much for having me. >> Introducing Human Security to our audience. We appreciate that. Really exciting stuff and so needed, especially in today's dynamic cyber landscape. We appreciate your insights. >> Rick: My pleasure. Thank you guys. >> All right. For our guest and for Dave Vellante, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE. The leader in live enterprise and emerging tech coverage. (soft bright music)

well you're watching the cube and I knew that you knew that I'm John Walls we're here in Las Vegas it's re invent 22. Big Show AWS putting it on the Big Show here late in 2022 that's going really well we're at the executive Summit right now sponsored by Accenture and we're going to talk about that relationship between Accenture and AWS um kind of where it is now and where it's going you know even bigger things down the road to help us do that two guests Andy Tay who's a senior managing director and the Accenture AWS business group lead at Accenture Andy thanks for being with us thanks for having me and Sarah whose last name was one of my all-time favorites all good because it is it's all good right okay it's all good Sarah all good worldwide leader of accenture's AWS business group for AWS and thank you both again for being here so let's talk about the relationship just in general high level here 30 000 feet a lot of great things have been happening we know a lot of great things are happening but how's this all you think evolved how did how has this come about that you two are just inextricably linked almost here in the cloud space Sarah why don't you jump on that yeah I'd love to um I think one of the the strongest factors that causes that Synergy for us is we both work backwards from our customer outcomes and so just by consistently doing that taking those customer signals um really obsessing over our customers success we know what we're marching towards and so then we kind of extract those themes and really work together to think about okay when we look at this holistically how do we go bigger better faster together and accomplish and solve those customer problems yeah Andy yeah John let me just maybe add and you know to amplify you know what Sarah just touched on um we both have common to our culture this notion of working from the client's perspective first so really delivering to the clients values or um you know in aws's parlance it's you know customer and so that's at the core and when we keep that at the core everything else becomes really easy where we invest what we build key clients we focus on what our team structure is et cetera Etc that's really easy so that sort of core core pillar number one in terms of our sort of you know success factors the second thing that I think really helps us is our sort of scale geographically you know certainly from an Accenture standpoint as you know John we're north of 800 000 people globally um couple that with aws's strength we really do have you know a field depth and breadth across the board that allows us to sort of see and feel what's happening in the market and allows us really to see around the corners as we like to think and say um and and that helps us be intentional on what we do um and then the third thing is really us we might know what we do but we sort of need to then play to our strengths and as you know we're two very different companies one focus on the technology side the other you know focus on the technology Services although we'll touch on you know some of the changes we're looking at as we go forward but that sort of playing to strength is key as well for us as a third pillar of success and so keeping those three things at the core really helps us move you know day to day and year by year and that's what you see in this continued partnership so what are you hearing from your customers these days we've talked a lot already today and it's kind of the buzzword you know modernization right everybody's talking about this transformation I don't care if you're in Mainframe or where you are everybody wants a modernized right now um you know what are you hearing from customers in that regard and I'm sure everybody's in a different state different yeah frame of mind you know some are embracing some are dragging uh what what's your take on the state of play right now well and I think it's like especially in these macroeconomic moments that we're in um time to value is critical for our customers um and then we have the talent shortage but even with those our customers still need us to solve for sustainability and still focus on inclusion diversity and equity and so we can't lower the bar in anything that we've already been doing we need to just keep doing more and building with them and so I think um for us really getting to the to the meat of what our customers need modernization is a big one but we're still seeing just so many of our customers look at basic transformation right how how do I dip in how do I start to move my environment move my people and get ready for what I need to do next for my business and so that that is a challenge and like we said with with the markets as volatile as they are right now I think a lot of customers are just trying to work with us to figure out how to do that in the most optimized and efficient way I just want to kind of rub people on the head and say it's going to be all right I mean it's so volatile as you pointed out Sarah right yeah I mean the market up and down and we're worried about a recession and companies and their plans they want to be Forward Thinking yeah but they've got to you know keep their powder dry too in some respects and get ready for that rainy day you know John it's funny um because you would think you know you've got the one hand you know rub that you know it's gonna be all right and and then on the other end you'll you know maybe clients should sort of hold temper and you know sort of just pause but I think clients get it they see it they feel it they understand the need to invest and I think you know there's a recent study back in 2008 those clients you know Sarah and I were reading the other day those clients who didn't invest ahead of those you know major if you remember those macroeconomic downturn times they came out really on the bad side um and so clients now are realizing that in these times these are the moments to invest and so they get it but they're faced with a couple of challenges one is time Sarah touched on you just don't have time and the second is Talent so we're working in a very intentional way on what we can do to help them there and and as you'll hear later on from Chris Wegman and Eric Farr um we're launching our velocity platform which really helps to compress that type and and get them faster you know time to Value we're also being very intentional on talent and how we help their talent so you know rotate so that we're not just taking the technology Journey but we're also having the people journey and then the third thing Sarah and I really focus on with our teams is figuring out new ways new sources of value for our clients and that's not just cost that's value the broader set and so we find that in moments like this it's actually an opportunity for us to really bring the best of AWS and Accenture to our clients well you hit value and I always find this one kind of tough because there is a big difference between cost and value my cost is X right whatever I write on my chat that's my cost so but but how do you help clients identify that value so that because it's you know it can be a little nebulous right can it not I mean it's uh but you have to validate you got to quantify at the end of the day because that's what the CEO wants to see it's what the CIO wants to see yeah you've got to identify values so how many how do you do that yeah yeah I mean we we have many different ways right velocity which Andy kind of touched on I think is is really um it's our foundational approach to help customers really kind of enter into their Cloud journey and focus on those key factors for Success right so we've got ISB Solutions built in there We've Got Talent and change built in we've got kind of what we're calling the fabric right that foundational technology layer and giving our customers all of that in a way that they can consume in a way that they can control and you know different modules essentially that they can leverage to move it's going to be tangible right they're going to be able to see I've now got access to all these things that I need I can move as I need to move and I'm not constantly you know looking around figuring out how to lock it all together we've given them that picture and that road map on how to really leverage this because we we need to be able to point to tangible outcomes and so that's critical yeah proof's got to be in the pudding and and you know to Sarah's point I think sort of we're entering into this sort of new dare I say new chapter of cloud and then you know sort of the first chapter was sort of those outcomes were around cost you know I've moved you into the cloud you can shut down your data center but now we've sort of got other sources of value now Beyond costs there's news new sources of revenue how do I become a platform company on top of the AWS cloud and then you know eke out new Revenue sources for myself how do I drive new experiences for my customers yeah um how do I maybe tap into the sustainability angle of things and how do I get greater Innovation from my talent how do I operate better in a Sarah said how do I become more Nimble more agile and more responsive to Market demands and so all those areas all those Dynamics all those outcomes are sources of value that were sort of really laser focused on and just ensuring that as a partnership we we help our clients on that Journey so what do you do about talent I mean you brought it up a couple of times UTP has um in terms of of training retaining recruiting all those key elements right now it's an ultra competitive environment right now yeah and there might be a little bit of a talent Gap in terms of what we're producing right so um you know how do you I guess make the most out of that and and make sure you keep the good people around yeah Talent is an interesting one John um and we were just touching on this uh before we got here um you know sort of from an Accenture standpoint um we're obviously focused on growing our AWS Talent um we've now got I think it's north of 27 000 people in Accenture with AWS certifications north of 34 000 certificates you know which is absolutely fantastic a small City it's just I mean it is very intentional in building that um as AWS rolls out new Services Adam touched on a whole bunch of them today we're at the core of that and ramping and building our talent so that we can drive and get our clients quicker to their value and then the second area of focus is what do we do to help our clients Talent how do we train them how do we enable them how do we you know get them to be more agile and you know being able to sort of operate in what we call that digital core operate in the cloud how do we do that and so we're focused um in in capabilities in fact our Accenture head of talent and people and change Christie Smith John is is here this week just for that and we're exploring ways in which we can get tighter and even more Innovative Around Talent and so I ultimately that that bleeds over to where the partnership goes right because if you can enhance that side of it then then everybody wins on that in terms of what you think you know where this is going yeah yeah it's already you know pretty good setup uh things are working pretty well but as the industry changes so rapidly and and you have to meet those needs how do you see the partnership evolving as well to meet those needs down the road we we have a very fortunate position in that our CEOs are both very engaged in this partnership and they push us think bigger go faster figure it out let's ride and there are definite pros and cons and some days I'm flying this close to the Sun but um it isn't a it's an absolute privilege to work with them the way that we get to and so we're always looking I mean Auntie said it earlier this is the relationship that helps us look around corners we've raised the bar and so we're constantly pushing each other pushing our teams just innovating together thinking it all through on where are we going and like I said reading those tea leaves reading those themes from our customers like hey we've just had five customers with the same similar feeling problem that we're trying to solve or we ran into the same issue in the field and how do we put that together and solve for it because we know it's not just five right we know they're more out there and so um I think you know it's it's leadership principles for us right at Amazon that guiding think big um you know insist on high standards that that'll always be core and Central to who we are and then you know fortunately Accenture has a really similar ethos yeah quick take on that Andy yeah I think as we look out you know I think um we're going to we've already seen but we're going to see this continued blurring of Industries um of um you know sort of clients moving into other Industries and yeah sort of this sort of agitation Market agitation um and so I think disruption you know disruption and and we're being you know focused on what do we need to be to do in order to help our clients on those Journeys and and to continue to you know get them you know faster Solutions is an area that we you know we are um really looking at and these are solutions that are either industry Solutions you'll hear a couple of them this week um you know we've got our insurance solution that we're we've developed as an intelligent underwriting capability leveraging AWS AIML to sort of be intelligent and cognitive um you know we've got other Solutions around the around Industries energy and Life Sciences but then also intelligent applications that might be touching you know areas I think earlier today Adam talked about AWS supply chain and that's an area that we are focused on and and proud to be a part of that and we're working very very closely with with Amazon on that uh to help you know our clients move ahead so I think we're going to see this continued blurring and we're going to obviously you know keep addressing that and just keep iterating well it looks like a relationship of trust and expertise right and it's worked out extremely well and uh if this is any indication where the interview went uh even better things are ahead for the partnership so thank you thank you for chiming in I appreciate your perspectives yeah thank you it's been great we continue our coverage here on thecube we're at re invent 22 we're in Las Vegas and you're watching thecube the leader in technical coverage foreign

(upbeat music) >> Hello, everyone. Welcome to theCUBE's coverage here at AWS re:Invent 2022. This is the Executive Summit with Accenture. I'm John Furrier, your host of theCUBE with two great guests coming on today, really talking about the future, the role of humans. Radically human is going to be the topic. Paul Daugherty, the group Chief Executive Technology and CTO at Accenture. And Jim Wilson, Global Managing Director of Thought Leadership and Technology Research, Accenture. Gentlemen, thank you for coming on theCUBE for this conversation around your new hit book, "Radically Human." >> Thanks, John. It's great to be with you and great to be present at re:Invent. >> We've been following you guys for many, many years now, over a decade. You always have the finger on the pulse. I mean, and as these waves come in, it's really important to understand impact. And more than ever, we're in this, I call it the systems thinking, revolution is going on now where things have consequences and machines are now accelerating their role. Developers are becoming the front lines of running companies, seeing a massive shift. This new technology is transforming the business and shaping our future as as humans. And so I love the book, very, very strong content, really right on point. What was the motivation for the book? And congratulations, but I noticed you got the structure, part one and part two, this book seems to be packing a big punch. What was the motivation, and what was some of the background in putting the book together? >> That's a great question, John. And I'll start, and then, Jim, my co-author and colleague and partner on the book can join in too. If you step back from the book itself, we'd written a first book called "Human + Machine", which focused a lot on artificial intelligence and talked about the potential and future of artificial intelligence to create a more human future for us with the human plus machine pairing. And then when we started working on the next book, it was the COVID era. COVID came on line as we were writing the book. And that was causing really an interesting time in technology for a lot of companies. I mean, think back to what you were doing. Once COVID hit, every company became more dependent on technology. Technology was the lifeline. And so Jim and I got interested in what the impacts of that were on companies, and what was different from the first research we had done around our first book. And what we found, which was super interesting, is that pre-pandemic, the leading companies, the digital leaders that were applying cloud data, AI, and related technologies faster, we're outperforming others by a factor of 2x. And that was before the pandemic. After the pandemic, we redid the research and the gap widened into 5x. And I think that's played a lot into our book. And we talk about that in the opening of our book. And the message there is exactly what you said is technology is not just the lifeline from the pandemic, but now technology is the heart and soul of how companies are driving innovation, how they're responding to global crises around inflation, energy, supply chain crisis because of the war in Ukraine, et cetera. And companies need the technology more than ever. And that's what we're writing about in "Radically Human." And we're taking a step beyond our previous book to talk about what we believe is next. And it's really cloud, data and AI, and the metaverse that signal out as three trends that are really driving transformative change for companies. In the first part of the book, to your question on the structure, talks about the roadmap to that. We talked about the ideas framework, five areas where you need to change your thinking, flip your assumptions on how to apply technology. And then the second part of the book talks about the differentiators that we believe are going to set companies apart as they look to implement this technology and transform their companies for the future. >> Jim, weigh in on this flipping the script, flipping the assumptions. >> You used a really important word there and that is systems. I think when we think about artificial intelligence, and when Paul and I have now talking to companies, a lot of executives think of AI as a point solution. They don't think about AI in terms of taking a systems approach. So we were trying to address that. All right, if you're going to build a roadmap, a technology roadmap for applying intelligent technologies like artificial intelligence, how do you take a holistic systematic view? And that's really the focus of the first section of the book. And then as Paul mentioned, how do you take those systems and really differentiate it using your talent, focusing on trust, experiences and sustainability? >> I like how it reads. It's almost like a masterclass book because you set the table. It's like, 'cause people right now are like in the mode of what's going on around me? I've been living through three years of COVID. We're coming out the other side. The world looks radically different. Humans are much more important. Automation's great, but people are finding out that the human's key, but people are trying to figure out where am I today. So I think the first part really to me hits home. Like, here's the current situation and then part two is here's how you can get better. And it's not just about machines, machines, machines and automation, automation, automation. We're seeing examples where the role of the human, the person in society, whether it's individually or as part of a group, are really now key assets in that kind of this new workforce or this new production system or society. >> Yeah. And just to take a couple examples from the book and highlight that, I think you're exactly right. And that's where "Radically Human", the title came from. And what's happening with technology is that technology itself is becoming more human like in its capability. When you think about the power of the transformer technologies and other things that we're reading about a lot. And the whole hypothesis or premise of the book I should say, is that the more human like the technology is, the more radically human or the more radical the human potential improvement is, the bigger the opportunity. It's pairing the two together rather than, as you said, just looking at the automation or the machine side of it. That's really the radical leap. And one thing Jim and I talked about in context of the book is companies really often haven't been radical enough in applying technology to really get to dramatic gains that they can get. Just a couple examples from the ideas framework, the I in IDEAS. The ideas framework is the first part of the book. The five areas to flip your assumptions. The I stands for intelligence and we're talking about more human and less artificial in terms of the intelligence techniques. Things like common sense learning and other techniques that allow you to develop more powerful ways of engaging people, engaging humans in the systems that we build using the kind of systems thinking that Jim mentioned. And things like emotional AI, common sense AI, new techniques in addition to machine, the big data driven machine learning techniques, which are essential to vision and solving big problems like that. So that's just an example of how you bring it together and enable that human potential. >> I love the idea, go ahead Jim. >> I was going to say we've been used to adapting to technology, and contorting our fingers to keyboards and so on for a long time. And now we're starting to see that technology is in fact beginning to adapt to us and become more natural in many instances. One point that we make is now in the human technology nexus, in fact, the human is in the ascended. That's one of the big ideas that we try to put out there in this book. >> I love the idea of flipping the script, flipping the assumptions, but ideas framework is interesting. I for intelligence, D for data, E for expertise, A for architecture, S for strategy. Notice the strategies last. Normally in the old school days, it's like, hey, strategy first and execution. Really interesting how you guys put that together. It feels like business is becoming agile and iterative and how it's going to be forming. Can you guys, I mean that's my opinion, but I think observing how developers becoming much more part of the app. I mean, if you take digital transformation to its conclusion, the application is the company, It's not a department serving the business, it is the business, therefore developers are running the business, so to speak. This is really radical. I mean, this is how I'm seeing it. What's your reaction to that? Do you see similar parallels to this transformation if you take it down to a conclusion and strategy is just what you do after you get the outcomes you need? What's your reaction to that? >> Yeah, I think one of the most lasting elements of the book might be that chapter on strategy in my opinion, because you need to think about it differently. The old way of doing strategy is dead. You can't do it the way you used to do it. And that's what we tried to lay out with the S in IDEAS, the strategy. The subtitle that chapter is we're all technology companies now. And if you're a technology driven company, the way you need to think about and every company is becoming, that's what I hear when I talk to these suites and CEOs and boards, is everybody's recognizing the essential role that technology plays and therefore they need to master technology. Well, you need to think about strategy differently then because of the pace of technology innovation. And so you need to throw out the old way of doing it. We suggest three new archetypes of how to do strategy that I think are really important. It's about continuous strategy in all cases. An example is one of the techniques we talk about, forever beta, which is, think about a Tesla or companies that it's never quite done. They're always improving and the product is designed to be connected and improving. So it changes along the product and the strategy along how you deploy it to consumers changes as you go. And that's an example of a very different approach to strategy that we believe is essential to consider as you look at the future. Yeah, those multi-month strategy sessions might play out over two or three quarters of going away. And strategy and execution are becoming almost simultaneous these days as Paul was saying. >> It's interesting because that's the trend you're seeing with more data, more automation, but the human plays a much critical role. And just aside on the Tesla example, is well documented. I think I wrote about in a post just this week that during the model three, Elon wanted full automation and had to actually go off scripts and get to humans back in charge 'cause it wasn't working properly. Now they have a balance. But that brings up to part two, which I like, which is this human piece of it. We always talk about skills gaps, there's not enough people to do this, that and the other thing. And talent was a big part of that second half, trust, talent, experiences. That's more of the person's role, either individually as part of a collective group. Is talent the scarce resource now where that's the goal, that's the key 'cause it all could point to that in a way. Skills gap points to, hey, humans are valuable. In fact the value's going up if it's properly architected. What's your reaction to that, guys? Because I think that's something that is not, kind of nuanced point, but it's a feature, not a bug maybe, I don't know. What's your thoughts? >> Yeah, go ahead Jim. >> I was going to say it, we're dramatically underestimating the amount of focus we need to put on talent. That's why we start off that second part of the book, really zooming in on talent. I think you might think that for every hundred dollars that you put into a technology initiative, you might put 50 or 75 into re-skilling initiatives to really compliment that. But what we're seeing is companies need to be much more revolutionary in their focus on talent. We saw economic analysis recently that pointed out that for every $1 you spend on technology, you are likely going to need to spend about $9 on intangible human capital. That means on talent, on getting the best talent, on re-skilling and on changing processes and work tasks. So there's a lot of work that needs to be done. Really that's human focus. It's not just about adopting the technology. Certainly the technology's critical, but we're underestimating the amount of focus that needs to go into the talent factors. >> That's a huge point. >> And I think some of the elements of talent that become really critical that we talked about in the book are becoming a talent creator. We believe the successful companies of the future are going to be able not just to post a job opening and hire people in because there's not going to be enough. And a lot of the jobs that companies are creating don't exist 'cause the technology changing so fast. So the companies that succeed are going to know how to create talent, bring in people, apprentices and such, and shape to tale as they go. We're doing a significant amount of that in our own company. They're going to be learning based organizations where you'll differentiate, you'll get the best employees if you provide better learning environments because that's what employees want. And then democratizing access to technology. Things like Amazon's Honeycode is an example, low-code/no-code development to spread development to wider pools of people. Those types of things are really critical going forward to really unlock the talent potential. And really what you end up with is, yeah, the human talent's important, but it's magnified and multiplied by the power of people, giving them in essence superpowers in using technology in new ways. >> I think you nailed it, that's super important. That point about the force multiplier when you put things in combination, whether it's group constructs, two pizza teams flexing, leveraging the talent. I mean, this is a new configuration. You guys are nailing it there. I love that piece. And I think groups and collectives you're going to start to see a lot more of that. But again, with talent comes trust when you start to have these ephemeral and or forming groups that are forming production systems or experiences. So trust comes up a lot. You guys see the metaverse as an important part there. Obviously metaverse is a pretext to the virtual world where we're going to start to create these group experiences and create new force multipliers. How does the metaverse play into this new radically human world, and what does it mean for the future of business? >> Yeah, I think the metaverse is radically misunderstood to use the word title when we're not with the title of our book. And we believe that the metaverse does have real big potential, massive potential, and I think it'll transform the way we think about digital more so than we've changed our thinking on digital in the last 10 years. So that's the potential of the metaverse. And it's not just about the consumer things, it's about metaverse and the enterprise. It's about the new products you create using distributed ledger and other technologies. And it's about the industrial metaverse of how you bring digital twins and augmented workers online in different ways. And so I believe that it has tremendous potential. We write about that in the book and it really takes radically human to another level. And one way to think about this is cloud is really becoming the operating system of business. You have to build your enterprise around the cloud as you go forward. That's going to shape the way you do business. AI becomes the insight and intelligence in how you work, infused with the human talent and such as we said. And the metaverse then reshapes the experience layers. So you have cloud, AI building on top of this metaverse providing a new way to generate experiences for employees, citizens, consumers, et cetera. And that's the way it unfolds, but trust becomes more important because just as AI raises new questions around trust, every technology raises new questions around trust. The metaverse raises a whole new set of questions. And in the book we outline a five-part framework or five essential parts of the framework around how you establish trust as you implement these new technologies. >> Yeah, we're seeing that about three quarters of companies are really trying to figure out trust, certainly with issues like the metaverse more broadly across their IT so they're focusing on security and privacy, transparency, especially when you're talking about AI systems, explainability. One of the more surprising things that we learned when doing the book, when we were doing the research is that we saw that increasingly consumers and employees want systems to be informed by a sense of humanity. So one company that we've been looking at that's been developing autonomous vehicles, self-driving car systems, they're actually training the system by emulating human behavior. So turning the cameras on test drivers to see how they learn and then training the AI using that sense of humanity 'cause other drivers on the road find human behavior more trustworthy. And similarly, that system is also using explainable AI to actually show which human behaviors that AI system is learning from. Some really interesting innovations happening in that trust space. John. >> Jim, I think you bring up a great point that's worth talking more about. Because you're talking about how human behaviors are being put into the design of new things like machines or software. And we're living in this era of cloud scale, which is compressing this transformation timeline and we've been calling it supercloud, some call it multi-cloud, but it's really a new thing happening where you're seeing an acceleration of the transformation. We think it's going to happen much faster in the next five to 10 years. And so that means these new things are emerging, not just, hey, I'm running a virtual event with chat and some video. It's group behavior, it's groups convening, talking, getting things done, debating, doing things differently. And so this idea of humans informing design decisions or software with low-code/no-code, this completely changes strategy. I mean this is a big point of the book. >> Yeah, no, I go back to one of the, the E in the IDEAS framework is expertise. And we talk about from machine learning to machine teaching, which is exactly that. Machine learning is maybe humans tag data and stuff and feed into algorithms. Machine teaching is how do you really leverage the human expertise in the systems that you develop with AI. One of the examples we give is one of the large consumer platforms that uses human designers to give the system a sense of aesthetic design and product design. A very difficult thing, especially with changing fashion interest and everything else to encode in algorithms and to even have AI do, even if you have fast amounts of data, but with the right human insight and human expertise injected in, you can create amazing new capability that responds to consumers in a much more powerful way. And that's an example of what you just said, John, bringing the two together. >> Well, yeah, it's interesting. I want to to get your thoughts as we get wrap up here soon. How do you apply all these human-centric technologies to the future of business? As you guys talk to leaders in the enterprise of their businesses, as they look at the horizon, they see the the future. They got to start thinking about things like generative AI and how they can bring some of these technologies to the table. We were talking about if open source continues to grow the way it's going, there might not be any code to write, it just writes itself at some point. So you got supply chain issues with security. These are new things you guys are hitting in the book where these are new dynamics, new power dynamics in how things get built. So if you're a business owner and leader, this is a new opportunity, a challenge certainly that is an opportunity. How do you apply all this stuff for business? >> I'll go first then Jim can add in. But the first thing I think starts with recognizing the role that technology does play and investing accordingly in it. So the right technology talent, rethinking the way you do strategy as we talked about earlier and recognizing how you need to build a foundation. That's why the fact you're at re:Invent is so important because companies are, again, rebuilding that operating system of their business in the cloud. And you need that as the foundation to go forward, to do, to build the other types of capabilities. And then I think it's developing those talent systems as well. Do you have the right talent brand? Are you attracting the right employees? Are you developing them in the right way so that you have the right future talent going forward? And then you marry the two together and that's what gives you the radically human formula. >> Yeah. When we were developing that first part of the book, Paul and I did quite a bit of research, and Paul kind of alluded to that research earlier, but one of the things that we saw in really the first year of the pandemic was that there was a lot of first time adoption of intelligent technologies like artificial intelligence. One statistic is that 70% of companies that had never tried AI before went ahead and tried it during the pandemic. So first time adoption rates were way up, but the thing is companies were not trying to do it themselves and to necessarily build an AI department. They were partnering and it's really important to find a partner, often a cloud partner as a way to get started, start small scale, and then scale up doing experiments. So that was one of the key insights that we had. You don't need to do it all yourself. >> If you see the transformation of just AWS, we're here at re:Invent, since we've been covering the events since 2013, every year there's been a thematic thing. It was startups, enterprise, now builders, and now change your company. This year it's continuing that same thing where you're starting to see new things happen. It's not just lift and shift and running a SaaS application on the cloud. People are are changing and refactoring and replatforming categorical applications in for this new era. And we're calling it supercloud, superservices, superapps, 'cause they're different. They're doing different things in leveraging large scale CapEx, large scale talent pools, or talent pools in certain ways. So this is real, something's happening here and we've been talking about it a lot lately. So I have to ask you guys, how does a company know if they're radical enough? Like what is radical? How can I put a pin in that? It's like take a temperature or we like radical enough, what some tell signs can you guys share for companies that are really leaning into this new next inflection point because there are new things happening? How do you know if you're you're pushing the envelope radical enough to take advantage? >> Yeah, I think one. >> You can go ahead, Paul. >> Yeah, I was going to say one of the tests is the impact on your business. You have to start by looking at all this in the context of your business, and is it really taking you to another level? You said it perfectly, John, it used to be we used to talk about migration and workloads to the cloud and things like that. That's still something you need to do. But now our focus with a lot of our customers is on how do you innovate and grow your business in the cloud? What's the platform that you're using for your new digital products and services you're offering to your consumers. I mean it is the business and I think that's the test whether you're being radical enough is on the one hand, are you really using the technology to drive differentiation and real growth and change in your business? And are you equipping people, your human talent with the capabilities they need to perform in very different ways? And those are the two tests that I would give. >> Totally agree. >> Interesting enough, we love this topic and you guys, again, the book is spot on. Very packs of big punch on content, but very relevant in today. And I think one of the things we're looking at is that people who do things differently take advantage of some of these radical approaches like IDEAS, your framework, and understand where they are and what's available and what's coming around the corner. They stand out in the pack or create new business opportunities because the CapEx is taken care of. Now you got your cloud, I mean you're building clouds on top of clouds or something's happening. I think you see it, look at like companies like Snowflake, it's a data warehouse on the cloud. What does that mean? They didn't build a cloud, they used Amazon. So you're starting to see these new things pop up. >> Yeah and that's a good example. And it sounds like a simple thing, data warehouse in the cloud, but the new business capability that a technology like that allows and the portability of being able to connect and use data across cloud environments and such is tremendously powerful. And I think that's why, you talk about companies doing things differently, that's why it's great, again, that you're at re:Invent. If you look at the index of our book, you'll see AWS mentioned a number of times 'cause we tell a lot of customer company stories about how they're leveraging AWS capabilities in cloud and AI to really do transformative things in their business. And I think that's what it's all about. >> Yeah, and one of the things too in the book, it's great 'cause it has the systems thinking, it's got really relevant information, but you guys have seen the movie before. I think one of the wild cards in this era is global. We're global economy, you've got regions, you've got data sovereignty, you're seeing all kinds of new things emerging. Thoughts on the global impact 'cause you take your book and you overlay that to business, like you got to operate all over the world as a human issue, as a geography issue. What's your guys take on the global impact? >> Well that's why you got to think about cloud as one technology. We talked about in the book and cloud is, I think a lot of people think, well, clouds, it's almost old news. Maybe it's been around for a while. As you said, you've been going to re:Invent since 2013. Cloud is really just getting started. And it's 'cause the reasons you said, when you look at what you need to do around sovereign cloud capability if you're in Europe. For many companies it's about multi-cloud capabilities that you need to deploy differently in different regions. And they need to, in some cases for good reason, they have hybrid cloud capability that they match on their own. And then there's the edge capability which comes into play in different ways. And so the architecture becomes very complex and we talk the A in IDEAS is architecture. We talk about all this and how you need to move from the old conception of architecture, which was more static and just modularity was the key thing you thought about. It's more the idea of a living system, of living architecture that's expanding and is what's much more dynamic. And I think that's the way you need to think about it as you manage in a global environment today with the pace of technology advancement. >> Yeah, the innovation is here. It's not stopping. How do you create some defacto standards while not stunting the innovation is going to be a big discussion as these new flipped assumptions start to generate more activity. It's going to be very interesting to watch. Gentlemen, thank you so much for spending the time here on theCUBE as we break down your new book, "Radically Human" and how business leads can flip the script on their business assumptions and put ideas and access to work. This is a big part of the cloud show at re:Invent. Thanks so much for sharing and congratulations on a great book. >> Thanks, John. And just one point I'd add is that one of the things we do talk about in talent is the need to reskill talent. People who need to be relevant in the rapidly changing future. And that's one area where I think we all as institutions, as communities and individuals need to do more is to help those that need to reskilling. And the final point I mentioned is that we've mentioned at the end of the book that all proceeds from the book are being donated to NGOs and nonprofits that are focused on reskilling those who need a skill refresh in light of the radically human change in technology that's happening. >> Great. Buy the book. Proceeds go to a great cause and it's a very relevant book. If you're in the middle of this big wave that's coming. this is a great book. There's a guidepost and also give you some great ideas to reset, reflip the scripts, refactor, replatform. Guys, thanks for coming on and sharing. I really appreciate it. Again, congratulations. >> Thanks, John. >> Thanks, John. Great discussion. >> You're watching theCUBE here covering the executive forum here at AWS re:Invent '22. I'm John Furrier, you're host with Accenture. Thanks for watching. (gentle music)