>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> After a two-year epic run in tech, 2022 has been an epically bad year. Through yesterday, The NASDAQ composite is down 30%. The S$P 500 is off 21%. And the Dow Jones Industrial average 16% down. And the poor holders at Bitcoin have had to endure a nearly 60% decline year to date. But judging by the attendance and enthusiasm, in major in-person tech events this spring. You'd never know that tech was in the tank. Moreover, walking around the streets of Las Vegas, where most tech conferences are held these days. One can't help but notice that the good folks of Main Street, don't seem the least bit concerned that the economy is headed for a recession. Hello, and welcome to this weeks Wiki Bond Cube Insights powered by ETR. In this Breaking Analysis we'll share our main takeaways from the first half of 2022. And talk about the outlook for tech going forward, and why despite some pretty concerning headwinds we remain sanguine about tech generally, but especially enterprise tech. Look, here's the bumper sticker on why many folks are really bearish at the moment. Of course, inflation is high, other than last year, the previous inflation high this century was in July of 2008, it was 5.6%. Inflation has proven to be very, very hard to tame. You got gas at $7 dollars a gallon. Energy prices they're not going to suddenly drop. Interest rates are climbing, which will eventually damage housing. Going to have that ripple effect, no doubt. We're seeing layoffs at companies like Tesla and the crypto names are also trimming staff. Workers, however are still in short supply. So wages are going up. Companies in retail are really struggling with the right inventory, and they can't even accurately guide on their earnings. We've seen a version of this movie before. Now, as it pertains to tech, Crawford Del Prete, who's the CEO of IDC explained this on theCUBE this very week. And I thought he did a really good job. He said the following, >> Matt, you have a great statistic that 80% of companies used COVID as their point to pivot into digital transformation. And to invest in a different way. And so what we saw now is that tech is now where I think companies need to focus. They need to invest in tech. They need to make people more productive with tech and it played out in the numbers. Now so this year what's fascinating is we're looking at two vastly different markets. We got gasoline at $7 a gallon. We've got that affecting food prices. Interesting fun fact recently it now costs over $1,000 to fill an 18 wheeler. All right, based on, I mean, this just kind of can't continue. So you think about it. >> Don't put the boat in the water. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good luck if ya, yeah exactly. So a family has kind of this bag of money, and that bag of money goes up by maybe three, 4% every year, depending upon earnings. So that is sort of sloshing around. So if food and fuel and rent is taking up more, gadgets and consumer tech are not, you're going to use that iPhone a little longer. You're going to use that Android phone a little longer. You're going to use that TV a little longer. So consumer tech is getting crushed, really it's very, very, and you saw it immediately in ad spending. You've seen it in Meta, you've seen it in Facebook. Consumer tech is doing very, very, it is tough. Enterprise tech, we haven't been in the office for two and a half years. We haven't upgraded whether that be campus wifi, whether that be servers, whether that be commercial PCs as much as we would have. So enterprise tech, we're seeing double digit order rates. We're seeing strong, strong demand. We have combined that with a component shortage, and you're seeing some enterprise companies with a quarter of backlog, I mean that's really unheard of. >> And higher prices, which also profit. >> And therefore that drives up the prices. >> And this is a theme that we've heard this year at major tech events, they've really come roaring back. Last year, theCUBE had a huge presence at AWS Reinvent. The first Reinvent since 2019, it was really well attended. Now this was before the effects of the omicron variant, before they were really well understood. And in the first quarter of 2022, things were pretty quiet as far as tech events go But theCUBE'a been really busy this spring and early into the summer. We did 12 physical events as we're showing here in the slide. Coupa, did Women in Data Science at Stanford, Coupa Inspire was in Las Vegas. Now these are both smaller events, but they were well attended and beat expectations. San Francisco Summit, the AWS San Francisco Summit was a bit off, frankly 'cause of the COVID concerns. They were on the rise, then we hit Dell Tech World which was packed, it had probably around 7,000 attendees. Now Dockercon was virtual, but we decided to include it here because it was a huge global event with watch parties and many, many tens of thousands of people attending. Now the Red Hat Summit was really interesting. The choice that Red Hat made this year. It was purposefully scaled down and turned into a smaller VIP event in Boston at the Western, a couple thousand people only. It was very intimate with a much larger virtual presence. VeeamON was very well attended, not as large as previous VeeamON events, but again beat expectations. KubeCon and Cloud Native Con was really successful in Spain, Valencia, Spain. PagerDuty Summit was again a smaller intimate event in San Francisco. And then MongoDB World was at the new Javits Center and really well attended over the three day period. There were lots of developers there, lots of business people, lots of ecosystem partners. And then the Snowflake summit in Las Vegas, it was the most vibrant from the standpoint of the ecosystem with nearly 10,000 attendees. And I'll come back to that in a moment. Amazon re:Mars is the Amazon AI robotic event, it's smaller but very, very cool, a lot of innovation. And just last week we were at HPE Discover. They had around 8,000 people attending which was really good. Now I've been to over a dozen HPE or HPE Discover events, within Europe and the United States over the past decade. And this was by far the most vibrant, lot of action. HPE had a little spring in its step because the company's much more focused now but people was really well attended and people were excited to be there, not only to be back at physical events, but also to hear about some of the new innovations that are coming and HPE has a long way to go in terms of building out that ecosystem, but it's starting to form. So we saw that last week. So tech events are back, but they are smaller. And of course now a virtual overlay, they're hybrid. And just to give you some context, theCUBE did, as I said 12 physical events in the first half of 2022. Just to compare that in 2019, through June of that year we had done 35 physical events. Yeah, 35. And what's perhaps more interesting is we had our largest first half ever in our 12 year history because we're doing so much hybrid and virtual to compliment the physical. So that's the new format is CUBE plus digital or sometimes just digital but that's really what's happening in our business. So I think it's a reflection of what's happening in the broader tech community. So everyone's still trying to figure that out but it's clear that events are back and there's no replacing face to face. Or as I like to say, belly to belly, because deals are done at physical events. All these events we've been to, the sales people are so excited. They're saying we're closing business. Pipelines coming out of these events are much stronger, than they are out of the virtual events but the post virtual event continues to deliver that long tail effect. So that's not going to go away. The bottom line is hybrid is the new model. Okay let's look at some of the big themes that we've taken away from the first half of 2022. Now of course, this is all happening under the umbrella of digital transformation. I'm not going to talk about that too much, you've had plenty of DX Kool-Aid injected into your veins over the last 27 months. But one of the first observations I'll share is that the so-called big data ecosystem that was forming during the hoop and around, the hadoop infrastructure days and years. then remember it dispersed, right when the cloud came in and kind of you know, not wiped out but definitely dampened the hadoop enthusiasm for on-prem, the ecosystem dispersed, but now it's reforming. There are large pockets that are obviously seen in the various clouds. And we definitely see a ecosystem forming around MongoDB and the open source community gathering in the data bricks ecosystem. But the most notable momentum is within the Snowflake ecosystem. Snowflake is moving fast to win the day in the data ecosystem. They're providing a single platform that's bringing different data types together. Live data from systems of record, systems of engagement together with so-called systems of insight. These are converging and while others notably, Oracle are architecting for this new reality, Snowflake is leading with the ecosystem momentum and a new stack is emerging that comprises cloud infrastructure at the bottom layer. Data PaaS layer for app dev and is enabling an ecosystem of partners to build data products and data services that can be monetized. That's the key, that's the top of the stack. So let's dig into that further in a moment but you're seeing machine intelligence and data being driven into applications and the data and application stacks they're coming together to support the acceleration of physical into digital. It's happening right before our eyes in every industry. We're also seeing the evolution of cloud. It started with the SaaS-ification of the enterprise where organizations realized that they didn't have to run their own software on-prem and it made sense to move to SaaS for CRM or HR, certainly email and collaboration and certain parts of ERP and early IS was really about getting out of the data center infrastructure management business called that cloud 1.0, and then 2.0 was really about changing the operating model. And now we're seeing that operating model spill into on-prem workloads finally. We're talking about here about initiatives like HPE's Green Lake, which we heard a lot about last week at Discover and Dell's Apex, which we heard about in May, in Las Vegas. John Furrier had a really interesting observation that basically this is HPE's and Dell's version of outposts. And I found that interesting because outpost was kind of a wake up call in 2018 and a shot across the bow at the legacy enterprise infrastructure players. And they initially responded with these flexible financial schemes, but finally we're seeing real platforms emerge. Again, we saw this at Discover and at Dell Tech World, early implementations of the cloud operating model on-prem. I mean, honestly, you're seeing things like consoles and billing, similar to AWS circa 2014, but players like Dell and HPE they have a distinct advantage with respect to their customer bases, their service organizations, their very large portfolios, especially in the case of Dell and the fact that they have more mature stacks and knowhow to run mission critical enterprise applications on-prem. So John's comment was quite interesting that these firms are basically building their own version of outposts. Outposts obviously came into their wheelhouse and now they've finally responded. And this is setting up cloud 3.0 or Supercloud, as we like to call it, an abstraction layer, that sits above the clouds that serves as a unifying experience across a continuum of on-prem across clouds, whether it's AWS, Azure, or Google. And out to both the near and far edge, near edge being a Lowes or a Home Depot, but far edge could be space. And that edge again is fragmented. You've got the examples like the retail stores at the near edge. Outer space maybe is the far edge and IOT devices is perhaps the tiny edge. No one really knows how the tiny edge is going to play out but it's pretty clear that it's not going to comprise traditional X86 systems with a cool name tossed out to the edge. Rather, it's likely going to require a new low cost, low power, high performance architecture, most likely RM based that will enable things like realtime AI inferencing at that edge. Now we've talked about this a lot on Breaking Analysis, so I'm not going to double click on it. But suffice to say that it's very possible that new innovations are going to emerge from the tiny edge that could really disrupt the enterprise in terms of price performance. Okay, two other quick observations. One is that data protection is becoming a much closer cohort to the security stack where data immutability and air gaps and fast recovery are increasingly becoming a fundamental component of the security strategy to combat ransomware and recover from other potential hacks or disasters. And I got to say from our observation, Veeam is leading the pack here. It's now claiming the number one revenue spot in a statistical dead heat with the Dell's data protection business. That's according to Veeam, according to IDC. And so that space continues to be of interest. And finally, Broadcom's acquisition of Dell. It's going to have ripple effects throughout the enterprise technology business. And there of course, there are a lot of questions that remain, but the one other thing that John Furrier and I were discussing last night John looked at me and said, "Dave imagine if VMware runs better on Broadcom components and OEMs that use Broadcom run VMware better, maybe Broadcom doesn't even have to raise prices on on VMware licenses. Maybe they'll just raise prices on the OEMs and let them raise prices to the end customer." Interesting thought, I think because Broadcom is so P&L focused that it's probably not going to be the prevailing model but we'll see what happens to some of the strategic projects rather like Monterey and Capitola and Thunder. We've talked a lot about project Monterey, the others we'll see if they can make the cut. That's one of the big concerns because it's how OEMs like the ones that are building their versions of outposts are going to compete with the cloud vendors, namely AWS in the future. I want to come back to the comment on the data stack for a moment that we were talking about earlier, we talked about how the big data ecosystem that was once coalescing around hadoop dispersed. Well, the data value chain is reforming and we think it looks something like this picture, where cloud infrastructure lives at the bottom. We've said many times the cloud is expanding and evolving. And if companies like Dell and HPE can truly build a super cloud infrastructure experience then they will be in a position to capture more of the data value. If not, then it's going to go to the cloud players. And there's a live data layer that is increasingly being converged into platforms that not only simplify the movement in ELTing of data but also allow organizations to compress the time to value. Now there's a layer above that, we sometimes call it the super PaaS layer if you will, that must comprise open source tooling, partners are going to write applications and leverage platform APIs and build data products and services that can be monetized at the top of the stack. So when you observe the battle for the data future it's unlikely that any one company is going to be able to do this all on their own, which is why I often joke that the 2020s version of a sweaty Steve Bomber running around the stage, screaming, developers, developers developers, and getting the whole audience into it is now about ecosystem ecosystem ecosystem. Because when you need to fill gaps and accelerate features and provide optionality a list of capabilities on the left hand side of this chart, that's going to come from a variety of different companies and places, we're talking about catalogs and AI tools and data science capabilities, data quality, governance tools and it should be of no surprise to followers of Breaking Analysis that on the right hand side of this chart we're including the four principles of data mesh, which of course were popularized by Zhamak Dehghani. So decentralized data ownership, data as products, self-serve platform and automated or computational governance. Now whether this vision becomes a reality via a proprietary platform like Snowflake or somehow is replicated by an open source remains to be seen but history generally shows that a defacto standard for more complex problems like this is often going to emerge prior to an open source alternative. And that would be where I would place my bets. Although even that proprietary platform has to include open source optionality. But it's not a winner take all market. It's plenty of room for multiple players and ecosystem innovators, but winner will definitely take more in my opinion. Okay, let's close with some ETR data that looks at some of those major platform plays who talk a lot about digital transformation and world changing impactful missions. And they have the resources really to compete. This is an XY graphic. It's a view that we often show, it's got net score on the vertical access. That's a measure of spending momentum, and overlap or presence in the ETR survey. That red, that's the horizontal access. The red dotted line at 40% indicates that the platform is among the highest in terms of spending velocity. Which is why I always point out how impressive that makes AWS and Azure because not only are they large on the horizontal axis, the spending momentum on those two platforms rivals even that of Snowflake which continues to lead all on the vertical access. Now, while Google has momentum, given its goals and resources, it's well behind the two leaders. We've added Service Now and Salesforce, two platform names that have become the next great software companies. Joining likes of Oracle, which we show here and SAP not shown along with IBM, you can see them on this chart. We've also plotted MongoDB, which we think has real momentum as a company generally but also with Atlas, it's managed cloud database as a service specifically and Red Hat with trying to become the standard for app dev in Kubernetes environments, which is the hottest trend right now in application development and application modernization. Everybody's doing something with Kubernetes and of course, Red Hat with OpenShift wants to make that a better experience than do it yourself. The DYI brings a lot more complexity. And finally, we've got HPE and Dell both of which we've talked about pretty extensively here and VMware and Cisco. Now Cisco is executing on its portfolio strategy. It's got a lot of diverse components to its company. And it's coming at the cloud of course from a networking and security perspective. And that's their position of strength. And VMware is a staple of the enterprise. Yes, there's some uncertainty with regards to the Broadcom acquisition, but one thing is clear vSphere isn't going anywhere. It's entrenched and will continue to run lots of IT for years to come because it's the best platform on the planet. Now, of course, these are just some of the players in the mix. We expect that numerous non-traditional technology companies this is important to emerge as new cloud players. We've put a lot of emphasis on the data ecosystem because to us that's really going to be the main spring of digital, i.e., a digital company is a data company and that means an ecosystem of data partners that can advance outcomes like better healthcare, faster drug discovery, less fraud, cleaner energy, autonomous vehicles that are safer, smarter, more efficient grids and factories, better government and virtually endless litany of societal improvements that can be addressed. And these companies will be building innovations on top of cloud platforms creating their own super clouds, if you will. And they'll come from non-traditional places, industries, finance that take their data, their software, their tooling bring them to their customers and run them on various clouds. Okay, that's it for today. Thanks to Alex Myerson, who is on production and does the podcast for Breaking Analysis, Kristin Martin and Cheryl Knight, they help get the word out. And Rob Hoofe is our editor and chief over at Silicon Angle who helps edit our posts. Remember all these episodes are available as podcasts wherever you listen. All you got to do is search Breaking Analysis podcast. I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. You can email me directly at david.vellante@siliconangle.com or DM me at dvellante, or comment on my LinkedIn posts. And please do check out etr.ai for the best survey data in the enterprise tech business. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE's Insights powered by ETR. Thanks for watching be well. And we'll see you next time on Breaking Analysis. (upbeat music)

>>The cube presents, Coon and cloud native con Europe 22, brought to you by the cloud native computing foundation. >>Welcome to Valencia Spain in co con cloud native con Europe, 2022. I'm Keith Townsend with my cohos on Rico senior. Etti senior it analyst at gig home. Exactly 7,500 people I'm told en Rico. What's the flavor of the show so far, >>It's a fantastic mood. I mean, I found a lot of people wanting to track talk about what they're doing with Kubernetes, sharing their, you know, stories, some word stories that meet tough. And you know, this is where you learn actually, because we had a lot of zoom calls, webinar and stuff, but it is when you talk a video, oh, I did it this way and it didn't work out very well. So, and, and you start a conversation like this that is really different from learning from zoom. When, you know, everybody talks about things that working well, they did it, right. No, it's here that you learn from other experiences. >>So we're talking to amazing people the whole week, talking about those experiences here on the queue, fresh on the queue for the first time, Chris Vos, senior software engineer at Microsoft Xbox, Chris, welcome to the queue. >>Thank you so much for having >>Me. So first off, give us a high level picture of the environment that you're running at Microsoft. >>Yeah. So, you know, we've got 20, well probably close to 30 clusters at this point around the globe, you know, 700 to a thousand pods per cluster, roughly. So about 22,000 pods total. So yeah, it's pretty pretty sizable footprint and yeah. So we've been running on Kubernetes since 2018 and well actually might be 2017, but anyways, so yeah, that, that's kind of our, our footprint. >>Yeah. So all of that, let's talk about the basics, which is security across multiple I'm assuming containers, work, microservices, et cetera. Why did you and the team settle on link or do >>Yeah, so previously we had our own kind of solution for managing TLS certs and things like that. And we found it to be pretty painful pretty quickly. And so we knew, you know, we wanted something that was a little bit more abstracted away from the developers and, and things like that that allowed us to move quickly. And so we began investigating, you know, solutions to that. And a few of our colleagues went to Cuban in San Diego in 2019 cloud native con as well. And basically they just, you know, sped it all up. And actually funny enough, my, my old manager was one of the people who was there and he went to the link D booth and they had a thing going that was like, Hey, get set up with MTLS in five minutes. And he was like, this is something we want to do, why not check this out? And he was able to do it. And so that, that put it on our radar. And so yeah, we investigated several others and Leer D just perfectly fit exactly what we needed. >>So, so in general, we are talking about, you know, security at scale. So how you manage security to scale and also flexibility, right. But you know, what is the you, this there, you told us about the five minutes to start using there, but you know, again, we are talking about word stories. We talk about, you know, all these. So what, what, what kind of challenges you found at the beginning when you start adopting this technology? >>So the biggest ones were around getting up and running with like a new service, especially in the beginning, right. We were, you know, adding a new service almost every day. It felt like. And so, you know, basically it took someone going through a whole bunch of different repos, getting approvals from everyone to get the SEARCHs minted, all that fun stuff, getting them put into the right environments and in the right clusters to make sure that, you know, everybody is talking appropriately. And just the amount of work that, that took alone was just a huge headache and a huge barrier to entry for us to, you know, quickly move up the number of services we have. So, >>So I'm, I'm trying to wrap my head around the scale of the challenge. When I think about certification or certificate management, I have to do it on a small scale and the, the, every now and again, when a certificate expires, it is just a troubleshooting pain. Yes. So as I think about that, it costs, it's not just certificates across 22,000 pods or it's certificates across 22,000 pods in multiple applications. How were you doing that before link D like, what was the, what and what were the pain points? Like? What happens when a certificate either fails or expired up not, not updated? >>So, I mean, to be completely honest, the biggest thing is we're just unable to make the calls, you know, out or, or in, based on yeah. What is failing basically. But, you know, we saw essentially an uptick in failures around a certain service and pretty quickly, I pretty quickly, we got used to the fact that it was like, oh, it's probably a cert expiration issue. And so we tried, you know, a few things in order to make that a little bit more automated and things like that, but we never came to a solution that like didn't require every engineer on the team to know essentially quite a bit about this, just to get into it, which was a huge issue. >>So talk about day two after you've deployed link D how did this alleviate software engineers and what was like the, the benefits of now having this automated way of managing >>Certs? So the biggest thing is like, there is no touch from developers, everyone on our team. Well, I mean, there are a lot of people who are familiar with security and certs and all of that stuff, but no one has to know it. Like it's not a requirement. Like for instance, I knew nothing about it when I joined the team. And even when I was setting up our newer clusters, I knew very little about it. And I was still able to really quickly set up blinker D, which was really nice. And, and it's been, you know, essentially we've been able to just kind of set it and not think about it too much. Obviously, you know, there are parts of it that you have to think about. We monitor it and all that fun stuff, but, but yeah, it's been pretty painless almost day one. It took a lot, a long time to trust it for developers. You know, anytime there was a failure, it's like, oh, could this be link or D you know, but after a while, like now we don't have that immediate assumption because people have built up that trust, but >>Also you have this massive infrastructure, I mean, 30 cluster. So I guess that it's quite different to manage a single cluster and 30. So what are the, you know, consideration that you have to do to install this software on, you know, 30 different cluster manage different, you know, versions probably etcetera, etcetera, et cetera. >>So, I mean, you know, the, the, as far as like, I guess, just to clarify, are you asking specifically with Linky or are you just asking in more in general? Well, >>I mean, you, you can take the, the question in the, in two ways, so, okay. Yeah. Yes. Link in particular, but the 30 cluster also quite interesting. >>Yeah. So, I mean, you know, more generally, you know, how we manage our clusters and things like that. We have, you know, a CLI tool that we use in order to like, change context very quickly and switch and communicate with whatever cluster we're trying to connect to and, you know, are we debugging or getting logs, whatever. And then, you know, with link D it's nice because again, you know, we, we, aren't having to worry about like, oh, how is this cert being inserted in the right node or, or not the right node, but in the right cluster or things like that. Whereas with link D we don't, we don't really have that concern when we spin up our, our clusters, essentially we get the root certificate and, and everything like that packaged up, passed along to link D on installation. And then essentially there's not much we have to do after that. >>So talk to me about your upcoming coming section here at Q con what's the, what's the high level talking points? Like what, what will attendees learn? >>Yeah. So it's, it's a journey. Those are the sorts of talks that I find useful. Having not been, you know, I, I'm not a deep Kubernetes expert from, you know, decades or whatever of experience, but I think >>Nobody is >>Also true. That's another story. That's a, that's, that's a job posting decades of requirements for >>Of course. Yeah. But so, you know, it, it's a journey it's really just like, Hey, what made us decide on a service mesh in the first place? What made us choose link D and then what are the ways in which, you know, we, we use link D so what are those, you know, we use some of the extra plugins and things like that. And then finally, a little bit about more, what we're gonna do in the future. >>Let's talk about not just necessarily the future as in two or three days from now, or two or three years from now. Well, the future after you immediately solve the, the low level problems with link D what were some of the, the surprises, because link D in service me in general has have side benefits. Do you experience any of those side benefits as well? >>Yeah, it's funny, you know, writing the, the blog post, you know, I hadn't really looked at a lot of the data in years on, you know, when we did our investigations and things like that. And we had seen that we like had very low latency and low CPU utilization and things like that. And looking at some of that, I found that we were actually saving time off of requests. And I couldn't really think of why that was, and I was talking with someone else and the biggest, unfortunately, all that data's gone now, like the source data. So I can't go back and verify this, but it, it makes sense, you know, there's the availability zone routing that linker D supports. And so I think that's actually doing it where, you know, essentially if a node is closer to another node, it's essentially, you know, routing to those ones. So when one service is talking to another service and maybe on they're on the same node, you know, it, it short circuits that, and allows us to gain some, some time there. It's not huge, but it adds up after, you know, 10, 20 calls down the line. Right. >>In general. So you are saying that it's smooth operations in, in ATS, very, you know, simplifying your life. >>And again, we didn't have to really do anything for that. It, it, it handled that for it was there. Yeah. Yep. Yeah, exactly. >>So we know one thing when I do it on my laptop, it works fine when I do it with across 22,000 pods, that's a different experience. What were some of the lessons learned coming out of KU con 2018 in San Diego was there? I wish I would've ran to the microphone folks, but what were some of the hard lessons learned scaling link D across the 22,000 nodes? >>So, you know, the, the first one, and this seems pretty obvious, but was just not something I knew about was the high availability mode of link D so obviously makes sense. You would want that in a, you know, a large scale environment. So like, that's one of the big lessons that like, we didn't ride away. No. Like one of the mistakes we made in, in one of our pre-production clusters was not turning that on. And we were kind of surprised. We were like, whoa, like all of these pods are spinning up, but they're having issues like actually getting injected and things like that. And we found, oh, okay. Yeah, you need to actually give it some, some more resources, but it's still very lightweight considering, you know, they have high availability mode, but it's just a few instances still. >>So from, even from a, you know, binary perspective and running link D how much overhead is it? >>That is a great question. So I don't remember off the top of my head, the numbers, but it's very lightweight. We, we evaluated a few different service missions and it was the lightest weight that we encountered at that point. >>And then from a resource perspective, is it a team of link D people? Is it a couple of people, like how >>To be completely honest for a long time, it was one person, Abraham who actually is the person who proposed this talk. He couldn't make it to Valencia, but he essentially did probably 95% of the work to get a into production. And then this was before we even had a team dedicated to our infrastructure. And so we have, now we have a team dedicated, we're all kind of Linky folks, if not Linky experts, we at least can troubleshoot basically. And things like that. So it's, I think a group of six people on our team, and then, you know, various people who've had experience with it >>On other teams, but I'm not dedicated just to that. >>I mean, >>No one is dedicated just to it. No, it's pretty like pretty light touch once it's, once it's up and running, it took a very long time for us to really understand it and, and to, you know, get like, not getting started, but like getting to where we really felt comfortable letting it go in production. But once it was there, like, it is very, very light touch. >>Well, I really appreciate you stopping by Chris. It's been an amazing conversation to hear how Microsoft is using a open source project. Exactly. At scale. It's just a few years ago, when you would've heard the concept of Microsoft and open source together and like, oh, that's just, you know, but >>They have changed a lot in the last few years now, there are huge contributors. And, you know, if you go to Azure, it's full of open source stuff, every >>So, yeah. Wow. The Cuban 2022, how the world has changed in so many ways from Licia Spain, I'm Keith Townsend, along with a Rico senior, you're watching the, the leader in high tech coverage.

hey everyone this is thecube's live coverage from los angeles of kubecon and cloud native con north america 21 lisa martin with dave nicholson we're going to be talking with the founder and ceo next of cloudnatics rohit seth rohit welcome to the program thank you very much lisa pleasure to meet you good to meet you too welcome so tell the the audience about cloudnatics what you guys do when you were founded and what was the gap in the market that you saw that said we need a solution so just to start uh cloud9x was started in 2019 by me and the reason for starting cloud netex was as i was starting to look at the cloud adoption and how enterprises are kind of almost blindly jumping on this cloud bandwagon i started reading what are the key challenges the market is facing and it started resonating with what i saw in google 15 years before when i joined google the first thing i noticed was of course the scale would just overwhelm anyone but at the same time how good they are utilized at that scale was the key that i was starting to look for and over the next couple of months i did all the scripting and such with my teams and found out that lower teens is the utilization of their computers servers and uh lower utilization means if you're spending a billion dollars you're basically wasting the major portion of that and a tech savvy company like google if that's a state of affair you can imagine what would be happening in other companies so in any case we actually now started work at that time started working on a technology so that more groups more business units could share the same machine in a efficient fashion and that's what led to the invention of containers over the next six years we rolled out containers across the whole google fleet the utilization went up at least three times right fast forward 15 years and you start reading 125 billion dollars are spent on a cloud and 60 billion dollars of waste someone would say 90 billion dollars a waste you know what i don't care whether 60 or 90 billion is a very large number and if tech savvy company google couldn't fix it on its own i bet you it it's not an easy problem for enterprises to fix it so we i started talking to several executives in the valley about is this problem for real or not the worst thing that i found was not only they didn't know how bad the problem was they actually didn't have any means to find out how bad the problem could be right one cfo just ran like headless chicken for about two months to figure out okay i know i'm spending this much but where is that spend going so i started kind of trading those waters and i started saying okay visibility is the first thing that we need to provide to the end customer saying that listen it doesn't need to be rocket science for you to figure out how much is your marketing spending how much your different business units so the first line of action is basically give them the visibility that they need to make the educated business decisions about how good or how bad they are doing their operations once they have the visibility the next thing is what to do if there is a waste there are a thousand different type of vms on aws alone people talk about complexity on multi-cloud hybrid cloud and that's all right but even on a single cloud you have thousand vms the heterogeneity of the vms with dynamic pricing that changes every so often is a killer and so and so rohit when you talk about driving levels of efficiency you're not just you're not just talking about abstraction versus bare metal utilization you're talking about even in environments that have used sort of traditional virtualization yes okay absolutely i think all clouds run in vms but within vms sometimes you have containers sometimes you don't have containers if you don't have containers there is no way for you to securely have a protagonist and antagonist job running on the same machines so containers basically came to the world just so that different applications could share the same resources in a meaningful fashion we are basically extending that landscape to to the enterprises so that that utilization benefit exists for everyone right so first of first order business for cloud natick is basically provide them the visibility on how well or bad they are doing the second is to give them the recommendation if you are not doing well what to do about it to do well and we can actually slice and dice the data based on what is important for you okay we don't tell you that these are the dimensions that you should be looking at of course we have our recommendations but we actually want you to figure out basically do you want to look at your marketing organization or your engineering organization or your product organization to see where they are spending money and you can slice and match that data according and we'll give you recommendations for those organizations but now you have the visibility now you have the recommendations but then what right if you ask a cubernities administrator to go and apply those recommendations i bet you the moment you have more than five cluster which is a kind of a very ordinary thing it'll take at least two hours just to figure out how to go from where you are to be able to log in and to be able to apply those recommendations and then changing back the ci cd pipelines and asking your developers to be cognizant about your resources next time is a month-long ordeal no one follows it that's why those recommendations falls on deaf ears most of the time what we do is we give you the choice you want to apply those recommendations manually or you can put the whole system on autopilot in which case once you have enough confidence in cloud native platform we will actually apply those recommendations for you dynamically on the fly as your workloads are increasing or decreasing in utilization and where are your customer conversations happening you mentioned the cfl you mentioned the billions in cloud waste where do you start having these conversations within an organization because clearly you mentioned marketing services you can give them that visibility across the organization who are you talking to within these customers so we start with mostly the cios ctos vp of engineering but it's very interesting we say it's a waste and i think the waste is most more of an effect than a cause the real cause is the complexity and who is having the complexity is the devops and the developers so in 99 of our customer interactions we basically start from cios and ctos but very soon we have these conversations over a week with developers and devops leads also sitting in the room saying that but this is a challenge on why i cannot do this so what we have done is to address the real cause and waste aspect of cloud computing we have we have what we call the management console through which we reduce the complexity of kubernetes operations themselves so think about how you can log into a crashing pod within two minutes rather than two hours right and this is where cloud native start differentiating from the rest of the competition out there because we provide you not only or do this recommendation do this right sizing of vm here or there but this is how you structurally fix the issue going forward right i'm not going to tell you that your containers are not going to crash loop their failures are regular part of distributed systems how you deal with them how you debug them and how you get it back up and running is a core integral part of how businesses get run that's what we provide in cloud natives platform a lot of this learning that we have is actually coming from our experience in hyperscalers we have a chief architect who is also from google he was a dl of a technology called borg and then we have sonic who was the head of products at mesosphere before so we understand what it takes for an enterprise who's primarily coming from on-prem or even the companies that are starting from cloud to scale in cloud often you hear this trillion dollar paradoxes that hey you're stupid if you don't start from cloud and you're stupid if you scale at cloud we are saying that if you're really careful about how you function on cloud it has a value prop that can actually take you to the web scalar heights without even blinking twice can you share an example of one of your favorite customer stories absolutely even by industry only where you've really shown them tremendous value in savings absolutely so a couple of discussions that happened that led like oh but we are we have already spent a team of four people trying to optimize our operations over the last year and we said that's fine uh you know what our onboarding exercise takes only 20 minutes right let's do the onboarding in about a week we will tell you if we could save you any money or not and put your best devops on this pov prove a value exercise to see if it actually help their daily life in terms of operations or not this particular customer only has 30 clusters so it's not very small but it's not very big in terms of what we are seeing in the market first thing the maximum benefit or the cost optimization that they could do over the past year using some of the tools and using their own top-class engineering shots were about seven to ten percent within a week we told them 38 without even having those engineers spend more than two hours in that week we gave them the recommendations right another two weeks because they did not want to put it on autopilot just because it's a new platform in production within next two hours they were able to apply i think at least close to 16 recommendations to their platform to get that 37 improvement in cost what are some examples of of recommendations um obviously you don't want to reveal too much of the secret sauce behind the scene but but but you know what are some what are some classic recommendations that are made so some of them could be as low-hanging fruit as or you have not right sized your vms right this is what i call a lot of companies you would find that oh you have not right side but for us that's the lowest hanging code you go in and you can tell them that whether you have right size that thing or not but in kubernetes in particular if you really look at how auto scaling up and how auto scaling down happens and particularly when you get a global federated view of the number of losses that's where our secret sources start coming and that's where we know how to load balance and how to scale vertically up or how to scale horizontally within the cluster right those kind of optimization we have not seen anywhere in the market so far and that's where the most of the value prop that our customers are seeing kind of comes out and it doesn't take uh too much time i think within a week we have enough data to to say that this service that has thousands of containers could benefit by about this much and just to kind of give you i wouldn't be able to go into the specific dollar numbers here but we are talking in at least a 5 million ish kind of a range of a spend for this cluster and think about it 37 of that if we could save that that kind of money is a real money that not only helps you save your bottom line but at that level you're actually impacting your top line of the business as well sure right that's our uh value crop that we are going to go in and completely automate you're not going to look for devops that don't exist anymore to hire one of the key challenges i'm pretty sure that you must have already heard 86 percent of businesses are not able to hire the devops and they want to hire 86 percent what happens when you don't have that devops that you want to have your existing devops want to move as fast cutting corners sometimes not because they don't know anywhere but just because there's so much pressure to do so much more they don't scale when things become brittle that's when um the fragility of the system comes up and when the demand goes up that's when the systems break but you're not prepared for that breakage just because you have not really done the all the things that you would have done if you had all the time that you needed to do the right thing it sounds like some of the microservices that are in containers that are that run the convention center here have just crashed i think it's gone hopefully the background noise didn't get picked up too much yeah but you're the so the the time to value the roi that you're able to deliver to customers is significant yes you talked about that great customer use case are there any kind of news or announcements anything that you want to kind of share here that folks can can be like looking forward to without the index absolutely so two things even though this is kubecon and everyone is focused on kubernetes kubernetes is still only about three to five percent of enterprise market okay we differentiate ourselves by saying that it doesn't matter whether you're running kubernetes or you're in running legacy vms we will come on board in your environment without you making a single line of change in less than 20 minutes and either we give you the value prop in one week or we don't all right that's number one number two we have a webinar coming on november 3rd uh please go to cloudnetix.com and subscribe or sign up for that webinar sonic and i will be presenting that webinar giving you the value proposition going through some use cases that oh we have seen with our customers so far so that we can actually educate the broader audience and let them know about this beautiful platform i think that my team has built up here all right cloudnatics.com rohit thank you for joining us sharing with us what you're doing at cloud natives why you founded the company and the tremendous impact and roi that you're able to give to your customers we appreciate learning more about the technology thank you so much and i really believe that cloud is here for stay for a long long time it's a trillion dollar market out there and if we do it right i do believe we will accelerate the adoption of cloud even further than what we have seen so far so thanks a lot lisa it's been a pleasure nice to meet you it's a pleasure we want to thank you for watching for dave nicholson lisa martin coming to you live from los angeles we are at kubecon cloudnativecon north america 21. dave and i will be right back with our next guest thank you you

>>Live from San Diego, California. It's the cube covering to clock in cloud native con brought to you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem. >>Welcome back to the queue bumps to men. And my cohost is John Troyer and you're watching the cube here at CubeCon, cloud-native con 2019 in beautiful and sunny San Diego today. Happy to welcome to the program a first time guest, Tom Willkie, who's vice president of product ECRO funnel labs. Thank you. Thank you so much for joining us. All right, so it's on your tee shirt. We've been hearing, uh, customers talking about it and the like, but, uh, why don't you introduce the company to our audience in a, where you fit in this broad landscape, uh, here at the CNCF show. Thank you. Yes. So Grafana is probably the most popular open source project for dashboarding and visualization. Um, started off focused on time series data on metrics, um, but really recently has branched out into log analysis and tracing and, and all, all of the kinds of aspects of your observability stack. >>Alright, so really big, uh, you know, broad topic there. Uh, we know many of the companies in that space. Uh, there's been many acquisitions, uh, you know, uh, recently in this, um, where, where do you fit in your system? I saw like databases, like a big focus, uh, when, when I, when I look at the company website, uh, bring us inside a little bit. Yeah. As a product to the offering. The customers most, um, >> most, most vendors in this space will sell you a monitoring product that includes the time series database normally includes visualization and some agent as well where pharma Lampson Griffon open source projects, very focused on the visualization aspects. So we are data source agnostic and we have back ends for more than 60 different data sources. So if you want to bring together data from let's say Datadog and combine it with some open source monitoring from, you can do that with. >>Uh, you can, you can have the dashboards and the individual panels in that dashboard combined data from multiple different data sources and we're pretty much the only game in town for that. You can, you can think of it like Tableau allows you to plug into a whole bunch of different databases for your BI with that. But for monitoring and for metrics. Well, so Tom, maybe let's, before we get into the exit products and more of the service and the, and the conference here, let's talk a little well on the front page of your website, you use the Oh 11, why word? So we've said where it's like monitoring here we use words like management, we use words like ops. Observability is a hot topic in the space and for people in a space that has some nuances. And so can you just maybe let the viewers and us know a little bit about what, how the space is looking at this and how you all feel about observability and what everybody here who's running some cloud native apps needs to actually function in production. >>Yeah. So I think, um, you can't talk about observability without either being pro or, or for, um, uh, the three pillars, right? So people talk about metrics, logs and traces. Um, I think what people miss here is that it's more about the experience for the developer, you know, Gruffalo and what we're trying to achieve is all about giving engineers and developers the tools they need to understand what their applications and their infrastructure doing, right? So we're not actually particularly picky about which pillars you use and which products you use to implement those pillars. But what we want to do is provide you with an experience that allows you to bring it all into a single, a single user interface and allows you to seamlessly move between the different sources of data and, and hopefully, uh, combine them in your analysis and in your root cause of any particular incident. >>And that for me is what observability means. It's about helping you understand the behavior of your application in particular. I mean, I'm, I'm a, I'm a software engineer by trade. I'm still on call. I still get paged at 3:00 AM occasionally. And, and having the right tools at 3:00 AM to allow me to as quickly as possible, figure out what happened and then dive into a fix. That's what we're about over funnel labs. All right. So Tom, one of the things we always need to understand and show here. There's the project and there's the company. Yep. Help us just kind of understand, you know, definitely a difference. The products, the, the, the mission of the company and how that fits with the project. So the Gruffalo project predates the company and it was started by taco. Um, he, you know, he saw a spot for like needing a much better kind of graphical editing of dashboards and making, making the kind of metrics way more accessible to your average human. >>Um, the final lab started really to focus on the it and, uh, monitoring observability use cases of profanity and, but the project itself is much broader than that. We see a lot of use cases in industrial, in IOT, even in BI as well. But Grafana labs is a company we're focused on the monitoring side of things. We're focused on the observability. So we also offer, we mean, like most companies, we have an enterprise version of. It has a few data sources for commercial vendors. So if you want to, you want to get your data dog or your Splunk into Grafana, then there's a commercial auction for that. But we also offer a hosted observability platform called Grafana clown. And this is where we take the best open source projects, the best tools that we think you need as an engineer to understand your applications and we host them for you and we operate them for you. >>We scale them, we upgrade them, we fix bugs, we sacrifice the clouds predominantly are hosted from atheists, our hosted graphite and our hosted Loki, our log aggregation system, um, all combined and brought together with uh, with the Gruffalo frontend. So yeah, like two products, a bunch of open source projects for final labs, employees, four of the promethium maintainers. And I'm one of the promethium maintainers. Um, we am employee graphite maintainers. Obviously a lot of Gryffindor maintainers, but also Loki. Um, I'm trying to think, like there's just so many open source projects. We, uh, we get involved with that. Really it's about synthesizing, uh, an observability platform out of those. And that's what we offer as a product. So you recently had an announcement that Loki is now GA. can you talk just a little bit about Loki and aggregation and logs and what Loki does? >>Yeah, I'd love to. Yeah. Um, a year ago in Seattle actually we announced the Loki project. Um, it was super early. I mean I just basically been finishing the code on the plane over and we announced it and no one I think could have predicted the response we had. Um, everyone was so keen and so hungry for alternative to traditional log aggregation systems. Um, so it's been a year and we've learned a hell of a lot. We've had so much feedback from the community. We've built a whole team internally around, around Loki. We now offer a hosted version of it and we've been running it in production now for over a year, um, doing some really great scale on it and we think it's ready for other people to do the same. One of the things we hear, especially at shows like this is I really, I really, you know, developers and the grassroots adopters come to us, say, we really love Loki. >>We really love what you're doing with it. Um, but my boss won't let me use it until it goes to be one. And so really yesterday we announced it's Don V. one, we think it's stable. We're not going to change any of the APS on you. We, uh, we would love you to use it and uh, and put it into production. All right. Uh, we'd like to hear a little bit more about the business side of things. So, um, I believe there was some news around funding, uh, uh, you know, how many people you have, how many, you know, can you parse for us, you know, how many customers have the projects versus how many customers have, uh, you know, the company's products. Well, we don't, we don't call them customers of the projects that users, yes, yes, we, uh, but I'm from a company where we have hundreds of customers. >>Um, I don't believe we make our revenue figures public and, uh, so I'm probably not going to dive into them, but I know, I know the CEO stands up at our, our yearly conference and, and discloses, you know, what our revenue the last year was. So I'll refer you to that. Um, the funding announcement, that was about a month ago. We, uh, we raised a great round from Lightspeed, um, 24 million I believe. Um, and we're gonna use that to really invest in the community, really invest in our projects and, and build a bit more of a commercial function. Um, the company is now about 110 people. I think, um, it's growing so quickly. I joined 18 months ago and we were 30 people and so we've almost quadrupled in size in, in the last year and a half. Um, so keeping up is quite a challenge. Uh, the two projects, uh, products I've already touched on a few hundred customers and I think we're, you know, we're really happy with the growth. >>We've been, uh, we've never had any institutional funding before this. The company is about five years old. So we've been growing based on organic revenue and, and, and, and, you know, barely profitable, uh, but reinvesting that into the company and, and it's, yeah, it's going really well. We're also one of the, I mean it's not that unique I guess, but we're remote first. We have a more than 50% of our employees work from home. I work from my basement in London. We have a few tiny like offices, one in Stockholm and one in New York, but, but we're really keen to hire the best people wherever they are. Um, and we invest a lot in travel. Uh, we invest a lot in, um, the, the right tools and getting the whole company together to really make that work. Actually a really fun place to work. What time? >>We're S we're still in the business here and I don't know how much time you've spent at the booth this year, but I don't, can you compare, I mean, we've been talking about the growth of this community and the growth of this conference. Can you compare say this year to last year, the, the people coming up, their maturity, the maturity of their production, et cetera. Are they, are they ready to buy? Are they still kicking? Are they still wondering what this Cooper Cooper need easy things is, you know, where, where is everybody this year and how does that, how has it changed? Yeah, and that's a good question where we're definitely seeing people with a lot more sophisticated questions. The, the, the conversations we're having at the booth are a lot longer than they've been in previous years. The um, you know, in particular people now know what key is. We only announced it a year ago and gonna have a lot of people asking us very detailed questions about what scale they can run it at. >>Um, otherwise, yeah, I think there is starting to be a bit more commercial intent at the conference, some few more buying decisions being made here. It's still predominantly a community oriented conference and I think the, the, I don't want that to go away. Like, that's one of the things that makes it attractive to me. And, and I bring my whole team here and that's one of the things that makes it attractive to them. But there is a little bit more, I'm a little more sales activity going on for sure. Any updates to the, to the tracing and monitoring observability stories of the projects here at CNCF this year since you as you're part of the promethium project? >> Yes. So we actually, we had the promethium conference in Munich two weeks ago and after each committee conference, the maintainers like to get together and kind of plan out the next six months of the project. >>So we started to talk about um, adding support for things like exemplars into Prometheus's. This is where each histogram bucket, you can associate an example trace that goes, that contributed towards that, that history and that latency. And then you can build nice user interfaces around that. So you can very quickly move from a latency graph to example traces that caused that. Um, so that's one of the things we're looking to do in Prometheus. And of course Jaeger graduated just a week ago. I think. Um, we're big users of Jaeger internally at for final amps. And actually on our booth right now, uh, we're showing a demo of how we're integrating, um, visualization of distributed tracing, integral foreigner. So you can, you know, using the same approach we do with metrics where we support multiple backends, we're going to support Yeager, we're going to support Zipkin, we're going to support as many open source tracing projects as we can with the Grafana UI experience and being able to seamlessly kind of switch between different data sources, metrics all the way to logs all the way to traces within one UI. >>And without ever having to copy and paste your query and make mistakes and kind of translate it in your head. Right. >> Tom, give us a little bit, look forward. Uh, you know, a lot of activities as the thing's going to, you know, graduating and pulling things together. So what should your users be looking for kind of over the next six to 12 months? >> That's a great question. Yeah, I think we do a yearly release cycle for foreigners. So the next one we're, we're aiming towards is for seven, like for me to find a seven's going to be all about tracing. So I really want to see the demo we're doing. I want to see that turned into like production ready code support for multiple different data sources, support for things like exemplars, which we're not showing yet. Um, I want to see all of that done in Grafana in the next year and we've also massively been flushing out the logging story. >>I'm with Loki, we've been adding support for uh, extracting metrics from the logs and I really think that's kind of where we're going to drive Loki forward in the future. And that really helps with systems that aren't really exposing metrics like legacy systems where the only kind of output you get from them is the logs. Um, beyond that. Yeah, I mean the welds are kind of oyster. I think I'm really keen to see the development of open telemetry and um, we've just starting to get involved to that project ourselves. Um, I'm really interested to kind of talk to people about what they need out of a tracing system. We, we see people asking for a hosted tracing systems. Um, but, but IMO is very much like pick the best open source ones. I don't think that's, that's emerged yet. I don't think people know which is the best one yet. >>So we're going to get involved in all of them. See which one's a C, which one's a community kind of coalesces around and maybe start offering a hosted version of that. >> You know, our final thing is, uh, you know, what advice do you have for users? Obviously, you know, you like the open source thing, but you know, they're hearing about observability everywhere there are, you know, the, the whole APM market is moving this direction. There's acquisitions as we talked about earlier. Um, there's so many moving pieces and a lot of different viewpoints out there. So just, you know, from a user, how do you know, how will things ma, what makes their lives easier and what advice would you give them? Yeah, no, definitely. I think a lot of vendors will tell you like to pick a, pick a vendor who's going to help you with this journey. >>Like I would say like, pick a vendor you trust who can help you make those decisions. Like find someone impartial who's gonna not make, not try and persuade you to buy their product. So we would, uh, you know, I would encourage you to try things out to dog food and to really like invest in experimentation. There's a lot going on in, uh, in, in the observability world and in the cloud native world. And you've got to, you've got to try it and see what fits. Like we embrace this, uh, composability of the, uh, of the observatory of, of the observability ecosystem. So like, try and find which, which choices work best for you. Like I, uh, whenever, whenever I talk to him, you still have to lick all the cupcakes in 2019. I think. I mean, I would, it depends on your level of kind of maturity, right? >>And sophistication. Like, I think if, uh, if, if this is really important to you, you should go down that approach. You should try them all. If this is not one of your core competencies that may be going with a vendor that helps you is a better approach. But, but I'm, I come from the open source world and, uh, you know, I like to see the, um, the whole ecosystem and all the different players and all the different, new and exciting ways to solve these problems. Um, so I'm, I'm always going to encourage people to have a play and try things out. All right, Tom, final word, Loki. Explain to us, uh, you know, when you're coming up with it, how you ended, uh, are you the God of mischief? Well, so the official line is the Loki is the, um, is the North mythology equivalent of Prometheus's, uh, in Greek mythology and, and lochia logging project is, is, is Prometheus's inspired logging. So we've tried to take the operational model from, from atheists, the query language from, from atheists and, and the kind of a cost efficiency from, from atheists and apply it to logs. Um, but I will admit to being a big fan of the Marvel movies. All right, Tom Willkie. Thank you so much for sharing the updates on, on the labs. Uh, we definitely look forward to hearing updates from you and thank you. All right, for, for John Troyer, I'm Stu Madmen back with more coverage here from San Diego. Thank you for watching. Thank you for watching the cube.

>>Live from San Diego, California at the cue covering to clock in cloud native con brought to you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem Marsh. >>Welcome back to the cube here in San Diego for cube con cloud native con 2019. It's our fourth year of doing the cube here. I'm Stu Miniman. It's my fourth time I've done this show. Joining me is Justin Warren. He's actually been to more of the coupons than the cube has, I think at least in North America. And welcome into the program to two veterans of these events from pure storage. Uh, sitting to my right is she'll be uh, Shrivastava who's a director of product marketing and sitting to her right is Anthony lay Ferrario who's a senior product manager, uh, both of you with pure storage. Thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for having us. All right, so, so we, we were kind of joking about veterans here because we know that things are moving faster and faster. You both work for storage companies. Storage is not known to be the fastest moving industry. Um, it's been fascinating for me to watch kind of things picking up the pace of change, especially when you talk about, uh, you know, how developers and you know, software and a multicloud environment, a fit-out. So she'll be maybe, you know, give us a frame for, you know, you, you know, you're in a Cooper ladies tee shirt here pures at the show. How should we be thinking about pure in this ecosystem? >>Sure. Yeah. So, uh, you're, as, you know, we, we side off as all flash on brand storage company, uh, 10 years ago and, uh, we've kept pace with constantly innovating and making sure we're meeting our customer's needs. One of the areas of course that we see a lot of enterprises moving today is two words, microservices, two words, containerized applications. And our goal that you're really is to help customers modernize, modernize their applications while still keeping that store it's seamless and keeping that, uh, invisible to the application developers. >> I think it actually lines up really well if you're do just a pure sort of steam across time has been performance with simplicity. Right? And I think the simplicity argument starts to mean something different over time, but it's a place that we still want to really focus as our customers started to use, uh, try to containerize our applications. >>There are couple of challenges. We saw continued environments, of course, they're known for their, uh, agility, uh, how portable they are. They're lightweight and they're fast. And when they're fast, storage can sometimes be a bottleneck because your storage might not necessarily scale as fast. It might not be able to provision storage volumes as fast, your container environment. And that's the challenge that we at pure why to solve with our Cuban eighties integrations. Anthony, you mentioned simplicity there. So I'm going to challenge you a bit on that because Kubernetes is generally not perceived as being particularly simple and the storage interfaces as well, like stateful sets is kind of only really stabilized over the last 18 months. So how >>is pure actually helping to make the Cuban Eddie's experience simpler for developers? Yeah, and you know, you're totally right. I don't think I was necessarily saying that someone looking for the simplest thing that could ever find would adopt Kubernetes and expect to find that. But what I really meant was, you know, on one hand you have, you know, your more traditional enterprise infrastructure type folks who are trying to build out the underlying private cloud that you're going to deploy, you know, your infrastructure on. And on the other hand, you have your developers, you have your Kubernetes, you have your cloud native applications, right? And really the interface between those is where I'm looking at that simplicity argument because traditionally pure has focused on that simple interface to the end user. But the end user, as we were talking about before, the show has shifted from a person to being a machine, right? >>And the objective for pure and what we're building on the cognitive side is how do we take that simple sort of as a service consumption experience and present that on top of what looks like a traditional infrastructure platform. So I can get more into the, the details of that if you'd like, but really that that layer is where we're focused on the simplicity and really just asking the, the, uh, the end user as few questions as we can. Right. I just want to ask you, what do you need? I don't want to ask you, well, tell me about the, you know, IQN and blah, blah. They don't want that, right? That's the simplicity I'm talking about. Yeah. Well, you run developers generally, I mean, the idea of dev ops and I challenge people whenever they mentioned dev ops, and I'm hearing a pretty consistent message that developers really don't care about infrastructure and don't want to have anything to do with it at all. >>So if you can just bake it into the system and somehow make it easier to operate it, that kind of SRE level, that infrastructure level that, that Kubernetes as a platform. So once that's solved, then as a developer, I can just get on with, with writing some code. We definitely want stories to be invisible. Yeah. So if you want, but if they want stories to be invisible, that's not so great for your brand because you actually want them to know and care about having a particular storage platform. So how do you, how do you balance that idea that we want to show you that we can have to have innovative products that you care about the storage, but you also don't need to care about the storage at all because we'll make it invisible. How does that work? >>So Coupa storage for container environments has been a challenge. And what we are trying to educate the platform level users is that with the right kind of storage, it can actually be easy stores. For QA, these can be easy. And, uh, the way we make it simple or invisible is through the automation that we provide. So pure service orchestrator is our, uh, automation for storage delivery into the containerized environments. And so it's delivered to a CSI plugin, but we tried to do a little more than just develop a plugin into your Cubanetis environments. We tried to make your scalability seamless, so it's super easy to add new storage. And, um, so yeah, I think because a container environments were initially developed for States, less applications when became to staple applications, they still think about, Oh, why should I care about storage? But people are slowly realizing that we need care about it because we don't want to ultimately be bothered by it. Right. >>And if I can make, if I can make a point to just tag on to that I, the conversations I've had at the show this week, I've even helped me sort of crystallize the way I like to explain this to people, which is at first, you know, a lot of people will say, Oh, I don't, I don't do stateful application. I'm doing stateless applications and competitors. And my response is, okay, I understand that you've decided to externalize the state of your system from your Kubernetes deployment. But at some point you have to deal with state. Now, whether that's an Oracle database, you happen to be calling out to outside of your community's cluster, whether that's a service from a public cloud like S3 or whether that's deciding to internalize that state into Coobernetti's and manage it through the same management plane you have to have state. >>Now when we talk about, you know, what we're doing in PSO and why that's valuable and why, you know, to your point about the brand, I don't necessarily worry is because when we can give a seamless experience at the developer layer and we can give the SRE or the cluster manager layer a way where they can have a trusted high performance, high availability storage platform that their developers consume without knowing or worrying about it. And then as we look into the future, how do we handle cross cluster and multi-cloud stateful workloads, we can really add value there. >>Well, yeah, and I'm glad you brought up the multi-cloud piece of it because one of the more interesting things I saw from pure this year is how pure is putting in software cloud native. Um, so when I saw that one of the questions like, okay, when I come to a show like this, how does Kubernetes and containers fit into that old discussion? So how help us connect the dots as to what was announced and everything else that's happening. >>You've heard about cloud block store, which is our software running on the AWS cloud today. And uh, that's basically what we've done is we've people have loved flash array all these years for the simplicity it provides for the automation and performance. You want to give you something similar and something enterprise grade in the public cloud. The cloud, Luxor is basically, you can think of it as a virtual flash array and on the AWS cloud. So with that, you now have D duplication, 10 provisioning capabilities in the cloud. You can, um, be brought an active cluster, which is active, active, synchronous replication between availability zones. So really making your AWS environments ready for mission critical applications. Plus with our, you know, PSO just works the same way on prem as in the cloud. So it's just great for hybrid application mobility. You have the same APIs. >>Yeah, it's actually very cool. Right? One of the, one of the, you know, fun things for me as a software developer at pure, at a software side guy at pure, um, is that the API's that our arrays have are the same API. It's actually the same underlying software version even though it's a totally different hardware, hardware back end implementation. When we run in a cloud native form factor versus when we run in a physical appliance form factor, the replication engines work between the two snapshots, clones. Um, our ability to do instant, um, restores like everything that we do and that has brought value from our, our storage software stack, we still get access to in a cloud native environment and the transports as well. I guess trying to understand, is there Kubernetes involved here or is this just natively in AWS? And then then on premises itself is a, >> is a compute orchestration layer component. So when I look at Kubernetes, I'd say Kubernetes sits above both sides, right? Or potentially above and across both sides, um, depending on how you decide to structure your environment. But the nice part is if you've developed a cloud native application, right, and that's running on Kubernetes, the ability to support that with the same storage interfaces, the same SLS, move it efficiently, copy it efficiently and do that on whatever cloud you care to do. That's where it gets really cool. >>So we developed this really cool demo where you have a container application running on PSO, on flash array, on prem. We migrated that to cloud block store and on AWS and it just runs, you use the same yanno scripts in both places. There is no need to, you know, do a massive rearchitecture anything. Your application just runs when you move it. And we take care of all the data mobility with our asynchronous replications, you can take a snapshot on prem, you can snap it out into AWS, restore it back into cloud block store. So it really opens up a lot of new use cases and make them simple for customers >>that that idea of write once run anywhere. I said I'm, I'm old enough to remember when Java was a brand new thing and that was the promise. And it never quite got there because it turns out it's really, really hard to do that. Um, but we are seeing for from pure and from a lot of vendors here at the show that there's a lot of work and effort being put in into that difficult problem so that other people don't have to care about it. So you're building that abstraction in and, and working on how this particular, how the details of this work. And, uh, I was fortunate enough to get a deep dive into the end of the architecture of cloud Brock's door, just a recent accelerate conference and the way you've actually used cloud resources as if they were kind of infrastructure components and then built the abstraction on top of it, but in the same way that it runs on site, it, that's what gives you that ability to, to keep everything the same and make it simple, is doing a lot of hard work and hard engineering underneath so that no one has to care anymore. >>Yeah. And the way we've architected CloudLock store is that, you know, be as use the highest performance performing, uh, AWS infrastructure. And the highest durability it this infrastructure. So you're actually now able to buy performance and, and durability in one through one single virtual appliance as you would. >>Yeah. How's the adoption of the products going? I know it was, it was very early when it was announced just a few months ago. So what's the feedback from customers been so far about? >>It's been really positive and actually, you know, the one use case that I want to highlight really most is actually dev ops use cases, right? This, the value add of being able to have the same deployment for that application for a test or dev infrastructure in one cloud versus a production to point them in another cloud has been very exciting for folks. So, you know, when you think about that use case in particular, right? The ability to say, okay, I'm coming up to a major quarterly release or whatever I have for my product, I need to establish a bunch more test environments. I don't necessarily want to have bought that and we're not necessarily talking about, you know, bursting over the wire anymore. Right. We're talking about local, uh, local storage under the same interfaces in the cloud that you choose to spin up all of those test environments. So cases like that are pretty interesting for folks. >>Yeah. I think that's how people have started to realize that it's that operation side of things. It's not even day to day 90 and day 147 where I want to be operating this in the same place in the same way no matter where it is because it just saves me so much heartache and time of not having to re implement differently and I don't have to retrain my resources because it all looks the same. So, uh, yeah, Def does definitely have a big use case migration through verbose. That's another use case that we are seeing a lot of customers interested in and uh, disaster recovery, using it as a disaster recovery. How do you, so you can efficiently store backups on Amazon S three, but how do you do an easy fast restore to actually run your applications there? So with CloudLock store, it is now possible to do that, to do a fast, easy restore. Also a couple of weeks ago actually, we started taking registrations for a beta program for cloud Glocks or for Azure as well. Uh, yup. Customers are going multi-cloud. We are going multi-cloud with them. >>Great. I want to give you both a final word, uh, takeaways for a pure storage participation here at the show. >>I think the biggest thing that I, that I want people to understand, and I actually gave this talk at the cloud native storage day on day zero is that cloud native storage is an approach to storage. There's not a location for storage. And I think pure storage that really defines to me the way we're going about this, we're trying to be cloud native storage wherever you need it. So that's, that's really the takeaway I'd like people to have about pure >>and cute and storage for Cuban. It is, doesn't have to be hard. We are here all day today as well. So, um, I mean this is a challenge the industry seeing today and uh, we have a solution to solve that for you. >>All right, well that's a, that's a bold statement, uh, to help end us as Shilpi. Anthony, thank you so much for joining us for Justin Warren. I'm Stu Miniman back with more coverage here from cube con cloud native con 2019 stay classy, San Diego. And thanks for watching the queue.

>>Live from San Diego, California at the cube covering to clock in cloud native con brought to you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem Marsh. >>Welcome back. This is the cubes coverage of CubeCon cloud native con here in San Diego. I am Stu Miniman. He is Justin Warren and our guest for this segment, a cube alumni VJ pan day, who's the vice president and CTO of cloud inside Cisco. Also on the keynote stage this morning. Be joined. Thanks so much for joining us again. Welcome. Pleasure to be here. All right, so, uh, we've got to see the sequel on stage. Uh, network. Please evolve. Part two. Uh, there were magnets involved. Uh, there were some XKCD Keke humor in there, which, uh, definitely this audience appreciates it. Um, but part to come on the networking industry is known for its lightening fast changes. Um, Oh, maybe I'm thinking of this ecosystem, but um, it could give her audience a little bit of a taste of, uh, you know, the, the, the, the premise, uh, of, of what you were talking about. >>Absolutely. I think, uh, so back in Barcelona I talked about how networking needed to evolve for a cloud native environment and the whole idea behind that talk was we've gone from physical infrastructure, which we call infant one dot Oh two virtual, which is in for two Dato. And in that transition, really nothing much changed except taking everything that was physical or even in the application space, taking monolithic apps and just wrapping everything up in a VM. And that was okay because you got a few things around a agility, you got disaster recovery, you got a few aspects that you would like. But largely things are monolithic largely, especially on the networking side, things were still being touted as routers or via routers, switches or switches, mr music, BGP and so on and so forth. Now when you're looking at containers and microservices, and I'm not talking about containers, which are just different shifts, but if you're breaking the application down into microservices or you're using silver less to build your applications, the app is getting thinner and thinner and much more distributed. >>That's where there's a complete reimagining of the application. There's a rearchitecture and because of that, the operational architecture is changing because you can't just have a database admin. The database is now 500 components. So you need your SRE organizations, your DevOps organizations to be aligned to that. You also, and therefore your organization changes because you're following this architecture paradigm shift. Yeah. So when that happens, how can the infrastructure remain the same? So you cannot use the concepts that you've used for physical and virtual networking, which have aggregate statistical networks to solve an application networking problem. Right? >>So w w one of the big challenges there is enterprise especially they've got a lot of applications. >>When you talk about how many of them are modern apps, it's a very small segment. You know, we talk about, Oh, 20% of apps in the cloud. Well how many apps have been modernized? It's a smaller piece of that and we need to have the bridge to the customer in all of the places that they are and are going. And you know, cloud is not a destination. It's, it's an operational model. So how do I, how do I span all of the environment? And embrace them and still keep, keep, everything's moving forward to, to drive the business. That's a good question. So I think if you look at, so to your point, there is a small percentage of apps that are cloud native today. I don't think it's as small as 20% I think it's closer to around 40 but we may differ on that number. >>What we are seeing is that that number is only growing. So that's a trend to watch out for. And the other trend to watch out for is it's not just the mobile front end or the dashboard that's becoming cloud native, which was the case a couple of years ago. You're seeing databases, you're seeing a middleware, you're seeing data processing pipelines, things that are critical to our business, do all of the apps that are getting modernized and becoming cloud native. So that's one aspect. The other aspect is you might have a function that remains and legacy, so to speak and get replaced by a cloud native app that does the same thing. So you might not rewrite it, but you might replace it. So that's happening quite a bit. And so, but to your question, how do you connect all of this, these things together? Cloud native is a philosophy. It's a way of operating an infrastructure is a way of building in the redundancy we have building in velocity. So that philosophy needs to percolate not just the new cloud native apps, but you need to uplift the old infrastructure and let them become cloud native as well. So things that we're doing with an assignment, things that we're doing with the attrition and our dynamic and a whole bunch of efforts within Cisco are geared towards uplifting the older gear on all the infrastructure in order applications. Do a client cloud native operational paradigm. >>Yeah, that's true. You mentioned part of that requires changing the way human behavior works, that it changing the way you operate a lot of this infrastructure. So it's not just about purchasing a particular tool, it's about actually using different tools in completely new and different ways. So what are some of the ways that Cisco is changing the kinds of products that it offers to customers that encourages them to operate their infrastructure in a new way? >>So let me start with the networking piece and since it's fresh and new from the keynote today, uh, one of the things, if you think about again, the developers and how they deal with applications, they want the network to be simple, available and pervasive. And so if you think about this in couple of tiers, so there is a physical infrastructure that sits below everything that is again, pervasive across a multicloud environment. And it goes all the way from your handset to the data center, including the edge compute locations. It connects everything together. So taking a network like that and simplifying it in terms of automation, in terms of how dev ops can handle that networking subsystem, in terms of how do you ensure that policy is consistent across this common environment, that is something that Cisco is pushing pretty deeply. So we have this multi-domain architecture that allows you to push policy across the entire network handset to the data center through the van. >>So that's one aspect of it. But above this sits a platform layer that is closer to the developer. And this is why things like NSM comment, because the developers don't want to deal with the bells and whistles at the physical or the virtual infrastructure layer. They are defining the CRDs. They are defining that if I'm a microservice, I want to talk to another microservice, all of bare metal orders over less function. I just want to connect a to B within my application. I don't care about every other application that exists in your infrastructure. And these are the attributes that I want from that connection. So it's like a watch and Wyatt like a bus and these are the attributes to the bus and that's what we're trying to handle from a cloud native perspective. So that's what you see from the NSM side of things. >>So, uh, we, we just had to go on talking about the database and talking about a cloud native database. And, uh, the way he really describes it is, you know, it's baked into Kubernetes even though Vitez doesn't have to have Coobernetti's. And he said he even had customers that it made it possible for them to be able to, uh, have that database from one cloud to another without needing to talk to his team. Uh, and it's, it's made things possible. Help us understand how the network service mesh fit into solutions like that. >>Absolutely. And I think if you think, I mean, I love the Virtus project they've graduated, so congratulations to them. But I think, uh, the concept behind that is taking the multicloud aspect of everything that we do to a layer which is higher in the stack. So we've talked about multicloud in terms of networking, in terms of compute, uh, in terms of infrastructure primarily, but looking at a database which is multicloud looking at storage, which is multicloud. I think that's the next layer of evolution in this entire stack. But one of the examples that are talked about in my keynote, very simple, but as, or not retest, it doesn't matter. Something that every organization wants to do is dig databases that are scattered across a multitude of on-prem or a multitude of clouds and just replicate. And to do that replication, the amount of pain that any organization needs to go through today. >>It's just like programming with magnets. Going back to my keynote where you're dealing with the technical complexities of doing this, you're talking to so many routers and switches, you're talking to firewalls, you're talking to colo providers, you're talking to cloud providers and especially every tore provider has their own compliance and configuration paradigms. So all of that being different. That's just the technical complexity within one organization. They like multitudes of teams. They have dev ops, net ops, tech ops, they all need to talk to each other. Even within Cisco we talked to our Cisco ID guys. Just dev ops is like 20 teams. There's not one team. So just imagine talking to all of those teams trying to fix this thing and trying to get just database application, simple problem like that. And then process complexity. So all of those things exist. And with NSM, all you do is say, just put me on the Santa Sam domain that lets me talk securely to every other database on the same domain, wherever they happen to be in a different cluster within the same data center or geographically somewhere else in the globe. I really don't care. And NSM basically takes care of that. So that's the simplicity that we're going after. And it's a simplicity that walks across. There are seven meshes across simple layer three problems like this across service provider use cases across a whole bunch of use cases. >>Hmm. Yeah. And it just, the simple act of moving data around you would think that we'd managed to solve that problem by now, but it turns out it's hard problem to solve and being able to connect this myriad of new services together to one why we have technologies like service mesh is changing the nature of the way we operate it. And, and as you say, putting tools in place to automate a lot of the mechanisms that go on so that we as humans don't have to do it anymore because it's just not attractive or attractable problem for the humans to deal with. And I think a lot of organizations are still wrestling with that concept of, of how they can change the way that they do things so that the humans aren't going to be able to do this. It's not actually a matter of choice. They are going to be going and having, they're going to go and do different things, new and interesting things, but they're going to be at a higher level of abstraction. And I think a lot of people are very concerned by that, that we may not have jobs anymore. No, no, no, you can't have these jobs. It is just not possible for humans to do them. We need to get you to go and do these other new jobs so that we can get on with solving these business problems. >>That's a very good problem point. And I think, uh, so prior to this role I was at Google and I ran the networking infrastructure for a while and then I ended up writing the automation and telemetry stack for running that infrastructure. And one of the things that we used to say back there was, if you are infrastructure depends on humans to scale out, then there aren't enough humans to hire. Even if you have the dollars to invest, there aren't enough humans to hire to fix that problem in a human centric way. So one of the things that we are doing at Cisco for example, is this whole push towards intent based networking. And to me that's an evolution from where SDN was to now where IBM is, because SDN has had these very specific connotations around it with said software defined separation of control and data. >>It gets into this very heated debates about what this is. To me, the answer is actually intent based networking. We did some of that back at Google as well, which is treat the entire network as a singular entity and operated in a very declarative fashion. That's what this is, regardless of whether they're built in a control data separated with all their traditional BGP networks, so we are pushing IBN in a very big way and the whole problem statement there is to your point, humans can't comprehend the complexities that arise. One one, one quick topic where we were sending telemetry data through SNMP, now we are sending telemetry data was the streaming and the amount of data that any operator receives is just through the roof. What are you going to do with it? So humans can't deal with that kind of complexity. So putting formal verification, formal models, formal closed loop automation systems with AI in place. I think that's the only way to go forward at least on large scale networks and on the other side, I think on the application side, like I said, being deep and narrow and being very selfish about the application that you're trying to connect to simplifies the problem because as an app developer I'm only concerned about this particular app and have what it connects to and that is going to attract a book from a human perspective. >>Yes. thank you so much. I think anyone that's attended this conference can definitely agree with that. There is a flood of information that no one person could keep up with. So, uh, thank you so much for joining us. We hope that, uh, your journey of network please evolve, uh, that we had comes to a successful conclusion in the near future. Absolutely. Look forward to chatting with you again soon for Justin Warren. I am Stu Miniman. Uh, stay tuned. We're going to wrap up day two, and we have a whole nother day tomorrow of our coverage here from CubeCon cloud native con 2019 in San Diego. Thank you for watching the queue.

>>Live from San Diego, California at the cube covering to clock in cloud native con brought to you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem Marsh. >>Welcome back. This is the cubes coverage of CubeCon cloud native con 2019 in San Diego, 12,000 in attendance. I'm zoomin and my co host is John Troyer and welcome to the program, the co founder and CTO of Lacework. Vikrum. Kapore's yeah. Thank you so much for joining us that to be here. So we had your CEO on at the first cloud security show, uh, earlier this year. A security definitely, you know, it's a board level discussion from center. I can never pass up the opportunity when I have a founder on the program. Just step us back for a second kind of book. The why of Lacework. Yeah, yeah. So I think if you look at the cloud ecosystem and communities now with containers, it's very clear that it requires like a new kind of way to look at security. Like all the traditional security tools for the data center were really built for like, you know, based on network. >>And then since they can know and as you move to the cloud, you know it's very hard to take 100 bucks to the cloud. You know, even with the virtual, you know boxes, it's really not that clean and good architecture. So what we found was that, you know, you really need a new way to think about it and me think about it as really a big data problem that you collect a lot of data, you process it, you analyze it, you get people to come with compliance and governance and breach protection automatically without having them light necessarily a lot of rules. Yeah. There's a term that this show cloud native and the maturity I've heard this year is some people say when I do cloud data, that means I like bake it into Kubernetes and that means you know, I can take my database across all the environments, I can take them there. >>Does that line up with how we should think about cloud security or is it more a little bit different than that? It's a little bit different than that. And the reason being that if you do all that, then what cloud native typically would also bring with itself would be things like your VMs and containers are not long than English short learning. And like in my world, in the old world, like I've been developing for 20 years, I knew the IP address on my airways and it didn't change and I knew the port number. But now if you ask me on cloud native environments, where is my database? Like I don't know there a five instances that ain't gonna hit their head in there. So there's a lot of elasticity, dynamic stuff that comes along with a network layer is not relevant at all to like what the applications are doing. >>So you need to get into the application layer and therefore particularly becomes a little bit different in that environment. So it's kind of, you know, the fact that I can run like thousand containers for no GS in like an instance which allows me to do that also means that, you know, I have no idea where they're running and what the IPS are. And I don't know, security on IP, I do it on, no Jess, like that's really what it is. So with Lacework though, you're, you're really monitoring this a, it's a platform. It's watching in real time. All this data is coming in. So it's both analyzing the history and it's got the stuff coming in. So you have a multiple layers. I mean we're here, uh, we're here at CubeCon. Coobernetti's is kind of the engine of what's going on, but there are other layers going on here. >>There's, yeah, there's all the application code and the pods. There's a, there's a cloud underneath and you all support, you know, different public clouds and on parameter and things like that. Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about maybe what's con some of the patterns of things you are dealing with, with all those different layers and those environments? >> Yeah, so I think it's actually a very relevant question. Like if you're going to think about like, you know, Coobernetti's you know, and as you said, like nothing really guns in isolation, right? Governance has to use containers. At some level. It has to run in either, even if it's managed, it's nothing in some VM somewhere. And the VM is basically the cloud native on VMware or it's hosted on some AWS cloud account and the cloud account probably has an API access to you to be able to set these things up or unset them if an attacker gets access to that. >>So we kind of think of security as comprehensively doing across the board. Like starting from like you know, build environments to run environments where before a developer does a build, you want to do one everyday analysis and make sure you're not building something with known problems in there. So you fix them as you go. Once you deploy them you need to look at like cloud configuration and you know, buckets on Autobahn or security groups are not, you know, incorrect. And then beyond that you actually really need a breach detection system, which kind of tells you when something does go wrong. And that can't be just inside Kubernetes or just containers. You kind of have to go look at every layer because you know, I've seen it personally, like, you know, as an, you know, having to look at some of the attacks, like when an attacker gets into one layer, he'll move into any layer he wants. Like there is really no way to say, I'll isolate him in this day only. So you have to going to protect everything and you're to Derbyshire Christian across the board. Yeah, I remember >>felt like it was a couple of years ago there was a security issue inside a Coobernetti's community freaked out a little bit, but you know, ended up moving past that. What are really kind of those security risks inside where does, where does Lacework fit fit into that discussion? >>Yeah, so I think it's really around like, you know, thinking like, you know, not companies as an isolated platform but actually part of the tech stack and ecosystem and looking at holistic lacrosse. It so fundamentally some of the security concepts haven't changed. You need to make sure you don't leave those open. Right. So if I have a door open on my uh, you know, API level, well it doesn't really matter if I close it on coronaries it's going to get exploded. Whoever is also comes with its own API SOA so that you have to monitor that. Also it has its own pod and it has its own port policies. So we're going to have to figure that too. So fundamentally I think at some level it boils down to making sure you kind of work with our tech security and dev ops. You need to work together to make sure that before the deploy it, it's kind of architected the right way. >>It has the correct VPCs and the port policies and the product texture and at the same time at run time, make sure you're monitoring it so that if something happens, you know about it early versus like six months later when the data is leaving your data center and then somebody tells you it's leaving it like it's too late at that point with your customers, then you're still seeing a role for the security team in the enterprise as well. The dev ops team better not be a better be coordinated with a platform like Lacework. Can you maybe talk a little bit about the enterprise situation and I'm guessing versus a startup? There's a lot more, there's a few other requirements that are coming up. >> We see that a lot across our customers. Like fundamentally DevOps and security really have to be on the same page because at the end of the day, like you know, the way the cloud happened in the has happened, it's a very API centric world. >>Like everything I do on AWS or GCP or Azure or is to an API. So it's a developer kind of centric world. And then if I have to set up a VPC, I have to work with the dev ops for Saturday and if I have to set up security groups, I have to work for dev ops, etc. So fundamentally, if they're not on the same page, you end up in like, you know, having problems. So the way we help in that environment is that we are able to get security on the DevOps team on the same page where they know security can understand what applications they can look at the behavior, they can understand, you know, what the architecture is and when they go tell dev ops to kind of, you know, there is something going on, can you help me? They can have a shared vocabulary and a language and they can talk about like things like on this part I saw access to, or you know, this website or DNS name, not that somebody in our data center went to the IP and like okay, but what does that mean the container is gone and the part's gone. >>Like what do I do with it? So I think we see that and I see, I feel longterm is really a collaboration where security brings to the table a lot of the knowhow and how to secure something. But at the same time, an actual implementation of it probably belongs in DevOps where like if you want to enforce something, you probably have to work with Kubernetes and Kubernetes API has to actually enforce it. So it kind of goes both ways. >> All right Vikram, talk to us about scale. We've talked to everything from broad scale to small scale in this environment. Give us the security aspect of that. So scale has been one of my favorite topics in the last 20 years. I've worked on this for systems and big data like at Oracle for a long time. And fundamentally what happens is that when you, when you do something on 10 PMs, you know, and you look at some alert, it's actually you know, one problem. >>But when you scale that up to like 10,000 VMs or you know, 10,000 containers and lots of users and developers doing multiple changes a day and like a billion connections now or like some of our customers do, it's no longer possible to look at like, you know, connections. It's no longer possible to look at every process. You've got to have to figure out how to deal with that problem by doing, you know, not operator processing and clustering. And that's what we do well. But at some point, scalability basically comes up when you end up having to, on any of the dimensions, having to deal with the problem where I can't, you know, as a human, I can't look at everything. So you have to kind of at that point, start investing in anomaly detection and figuring needle in the haystack problems so we can focus on them versus like, you know, one VM, something happened. All right, Vikram, really appreciate the updates. We know we're going to see lace Lacework at many of >>the cloud shows. Appreciate all the updates, everything in the Kubernetes environment. They kept doing it for John Troyer OMSU amendment back with more coverage here in just a little bit. Thanks as always for watching the cube.

>>Ly from San Diego, California. It's the cube covering to clock in cloud native con brought to you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem Marsh. >>Welcome back. This is the cubes fourth year at coupon cloud native con 2019 here in San Diego. I'm zooming in and my cohost is John Troyer and welcome to the program, John Coyle, who's the vice president of business and corporate development at Sumo logic. Thanks so much for joining us. Thank you. All right, so John, we had the cube at Summa logic illuminate, uh, where you had a relevant announcement. I've heard you've had some great momentum of that. So why don't you bring us up to speed kind of the communities related >>happy to, yeah, this is an exciting CubeCon for us. This year, two months ago at our user conference, we announced our, our Kubernetes solution. Um, we believe it's the, the, the uh, the first true dev sec ops solution for Kubernetes that is one platform to, to provide monitoring, troubleshooting, and security across a Kubernetes environment. And uh, so far it's been an incredibly successful launch. Um, it seems to have hit a real, real sweet spot with, uh, with customers that are, uh, increasingly, or their adoption of Kubernetes and, uh, and growing, uh, growing quite rapidly and, and figuring out how to monitor and troubleshoot and secure that at scale is a huge challenge. >>Well, yeah, so look, you brought up DevSecOps and, and you know that scaling the surface area is ever increasing. We're talking a lot about edge at this conference, uh, too. So that that surface area is getting order of magnitude bigger, the amount of change going through there. So, you know, how do you help those teams? You know, it can't just be people. There's gotta be, there's gotta be automation, there's gotta be platforms that just enable me. Yeah. Great. So what do we really mean by dev sec >>ops instead of just throwing it around? Really, the way we break it down, uh, broke the solution down is that the three core components, the ability to, uh, to, to, to do discoverability observability and security. So when we say discoverability, creating an intuitive interface by which, uh, everyone from an SRE to a SOC analyst can easily, uh, denify, um, issues and, and uh, the context of the application that's running on Kubernetes. The next piece is then observability being able to, um, get all of the relevant data, the logs, the metrics, the events that you care about to, to determine whether you have an issue or not. And then doing that all in the context of not a traditional infrastructure view, but really in a service level view, which our practitioners and our customers really care about. They think about their, their microservices based apps in terms of the app itself and the all of the different microservices that uses not on the underlying infrastructure that's there. And, uh, although that may sound subtle difference between monitoring and providing visibility from an infrastructure perspective, it actually makes all the difference in terms of being able to effectively and quickly identify an issue and then remediate it. Um, these environments are getting way, way too complex, especially in on top of Kubernetes as you look. The, I had serverless, the ephemeral nature of these environments. It's, it's, it's, it's a huge trend. >>All right, so just, I hear you throw out a lot of things and there's a word I didn't hear that I've been hearing a lot this year, especially when you talk about, uh, you know, when the container rolled and even serverless, it's observability because you know, that the traditional looking at logs, monitoring environments, I need a system view. I need to be able to deal with all of the realtime changes. So, uh, what, what sumos take on a kind of this observability trend that we've heard a lot of companies talking about. >>Yeah, yeah. That's where we've invested. The vast majority of the, the, the, the development in this solution is around deservability. And again, it starts with being able to ingest all the logs, metrics and events. Um, and in that, in, in that way, we've, we've embraced the open source community and you're using things like fluent bit fluent D Prometheus's. So leveraging the tools that are already out there, getting that data into the platform and then being able to allow, you know, different users. The, uh, a hierarchical approach to navigate through the data and the content that they care about and basically apply the mental model they have for their microservices that are Coobernetti's infrastructure to, to the actual tool they're using. So we've brought out, uh, a new Explorer UI, which allows, as I mentioned, from an SRE to a SOC analyst to go get the view they care about that's relevant to the security problem they're trying to solve or, you know, a reliability issue they're seeing with one of their, one of their core applications. >>John, I want to stick with good with Kubernetes itself for a minute here. And some of the words that have already been, you've already, we've already said here are things like microservices. Yup. And also scalability and complexity. So what is Kubernetes and apps that are built on Kubernetes bringing, uh, to the data center or the, or the public cloud that, uh, are, what are the problems they're bringing with them that, that you all are helping solve? Oh yeah, that's a great question. Um, I think some of them were, you know, complexity of microservices. And let me ask you for answering first in the context of what we see. Uh, at our larger customers that are more traditional, that have legacy systems, generally what's happening is they're their most important applications. The customer facing, the revenue generating applications, whether it's an insurance company or a bank. Those applications are getting modernized first and they're moving to containers, microservices, Kubernetes. >>Um, and as those teams go ahead and develop and build, um, the, uh, the it and the security systems designed for legacy apps can't really support them. So first and foremost, those teams are struggling with visibility to what actually is happening and, and, you know, the traditional monitoring and troubleshooting, but really doing it from a service focused perspective as opposed to just an infrastructure, you know, whether something's up or down or, or, or, or, or, or, or slow or fast. And that is one of the biggest challenges they have. And providing that, that discoverability coupled with that observability is key for our more mid market type customers that were born in the cloud or cloud native. They get this right away and have really been solving this problem by uh, a hodgepodge of different solutions and really having a swivel chair type management where they move from one pane of glass to another and they kind of connect the dots. >>And again this comes back to they already have a mental model of the way their infrastructure and their applications work so they're able to piece that together. Um, but I think that that, that, those days of, of, of relying on that are, are, are, are, are fewer and fewer because the applications and the, and the systems are becoming more and more distributed, more and more complex. And especially then as you add security into the mix, which I think a lot of customers are waking up. This is great. We're not really securing this as effectively as we should be. How do you bring that into the mix also? So John, I'm wondering if you could bring us into the organizational dynamics of what's happening here. You talk about scale. Every customer we talk to here is they're spanning between their traditional environment and then they're modernizing things. >>They build some new somethings get ported over. But you know, I don't want to use the word bi-modal, but they need to pull things along and security needs to live in all of these worlds. So, so what, what, what kind of impact is that having on the organization? And we think it's dramatic and that's why I, I started out the conversation by we really believe we have a dev sec ops solution. It's just not marketing speak where, um, if you look at the announcement we made at illuminate, um, we, we highlighted how we, we've also embraced Falco, the security opensource Gabriel, but also announced integrations with the leading container and Kubernetes solutions in the market. Aqua Twistlock, uh, stack rocks where, um, dev ops and security are really all coming together. Where that, again, back to the analogy I made before the platform needs to be able to serve both the SRE for a traditional, you know, reliability issue all the way up to a SOC analyst who's trying to troubleshoot and identify whether there's a real threat with a particular application vulnerability. >>And it all needs to be in the context of, of, of one platform. You can't have two different systems going forward. The, uh, with the, um, I lost my question here. So a partnership announcement announced this week. We were talking about some of the partners you work with. Give us broader view as to, you know, what the, what, what the news is this. Yeah, we're, we're excited. So the, we, uh, on Monday we announced the, the Sumo logic app intelligence partner program. Um, and really this, the, the first iteration of this was this was announced at illuminate with, uh, with the, the partners I mentioned. Uh, Aqua stack rocks Twistlock, um, armory, um, circle CEI, uh, code fresh who all built apps integrated into our Kubernetes solution that provides customers with, uh, with a deep insight into monitoring, troubleshooting and securing those different tools. Um, and this partner program extends that where we're now making it a much more open and easier for any, any, any vendor here today to join the program, build, uh, an integration directly to the Sumo logic platform and, and provide rich, rich content. >>We've been building an awful lot of these apps ourselves over the years. Um, but we're working, looking to work with partners more closely as they know their, their apps, their use cases, their content much better than we will. And kind of forging that, that, that, that, that partnership to, to bring that, you know, combined added value to customers. And this is something that our customers continually ask us for. I've got this new tool, I want to get that information into Sumo and be able to, to, to get value like I am with all the other solutions. I haven't seen them. I do want to follow up now. Okay. Which is that you do have a great customer base, right? And so you have a great visibility into the market. Yeah. One of the buzzwords that flies around the industry is multi-cloud. Yes. And so I'm very curious on how you and your customers are seeing the progression in the marketplace, their landscape, multi-cloud. >>Because there are people out out there who are very, very far ahead of everybody else who are kind of, sometimes the word multicloud gets made fun of. I think it's actually real life. So can you talk to us a little bit about your costs? Yes. Yeah. We've, we see that, uh, we see that front and center and Kubernetes has run to the big drivers to it, right? It's, it's, uh, it's made these different clouds, uh, very equal for whether I run a, a Kubernetes environment on premise or move in AWS. I could easily move into GCP or Azure. And, uh, at our user conference two months ago, we brought out a continuous talent report that we bring out annually. And there's some interesting statistics in that where we see the more the growth and, uh, customers that are multi-cloud. It's all being driven by their adoption of Kubernetes. >>And it, it, it basically, uh, abstracts out the, the underlying the underlying infrastructure and now allows them to, to move across that. And uh, we see that as a huge demand. Yeah. I actually have some of the stats here that's, which reminded me of my question, which is, you know, enterprise adoption of multi-cloud in your survey, 50% growth year over year, you know, 80% of customers, if you look at all the clouds are, are using some sort of Kubernetes. So I mean that's the, those are real struggling numbers actually. Yeah. Yeah. Just about every major company we speak to has some initiative to get to multi-cloud timing question of how large and when they're going to actually do all that. But it's on everyone's roadmap for sure. >>All right, well, John, I'm glad we've solved all the security issues in multicloud today. Um, for, for those people that might have a little bit more to fix, you know, give us a little bit of a look forward as to what more, uh, you know, where we're going. Uh, both for Sumo and for everybody in the dev sec ops space on that, that kind of the, the, the, the growing, uh, maturity there. >>Yeah, I think, uh, you know, two areas, uh, we're, we're excited about is, um, being able to, you know, many respects. I, I look at our business, uh, we're very, very similar to a bank. People in invest or we ingest their data into the bank of Sumo, uh, with the promise of returning it back to them with some interest or some, some, some return on it. And, um, there's no shortage of data coming to us. So being able to allow customers to do and use that data in more granular, uh, and bifurcate that data all day does not, uh, created equal but allow them, uh, economically to get more value out of that data. You're going to see a lot of, uh, you know, what we call like economic disruption coming from us in the next, uh, next few weeks, next, uh, next year. And some of the things we're, we're, we're talking about. >>Um, and then also, um, taking a, a powerful platform like sumos continuous intelligence platform and really helping customers map it more directly to specific use cases. Uh, we have, uh, we have, uh, a graphic on the, on the new website announcing the app intelligence partner program that basically shows here's just about any customers, uh, uh, uh, development pipeline, whether it's a bank or a hot startup going from an idea all the way to production. Um, they need visibility and security across all of that. That, that, that, that, that, uh, that infrastructure and those applications and we can provide that what we need to do a better job is helping customers understand how they can apply the power of what we have to these specific use cases all along that pipeline. Um, and you know, as I'm sure you can attest some other conversations there, there's, there's a lack of, of a, uh, there's a labor shortage of knowledge of how you take all these new technologies and really apply them, uh, very effectively at scale. Um, and that's, that's an area we're going to be investing in heavily to help customers do that. All right, >>perfect. Way to end. Thank you, John. Thanks for giving us the update. Chandon congratulate to them the progress since illuminate for John Troyer Omstead amendment. Stay with us for more wall-to-wall covered here from cube con cloud native con 2019 stay classy. San Diego and thank you for watching the cube.

>>Live from San Diego, California. It's the cube covering to clock in cloud native con brought to you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem Marsh. >>Welcome back. This is the cubes coverage of coupon, cloud-native con 2019 here in San Diego. I'm Stu Miniman co-hosting for three days with John Troyer to my left and happy to welcome back to the program. Two of our cube alumni to my right is Robert Christiansen who is the vice president of strategy and office of the CTO with the IP group to see you. And sitting next to him is Kumar Sri Conti, SVP and CTO of that hybrid it group at HPE Kumar. Great to see you. Thank you very much. Thank you John. Good to be back here. Yes, hot off the presses. HP had a big announcement today. Uh, really unveiling it. Full container platform. Uh, Kumar, maybe it help us frame and understand, uh, what that is and why that wants here at at the show. Thank you. Is too good, too good to see John and it's very nice to be back on the cube. >>Yeah, we are very excited. We made an announcement, a HV container platform as we sat in the presser lays and various conversations. This is built on a proven technologies. HP has acquired a few companies in the past which includes my company blue data map. Our blue data has been in the container technology for more than five years. We have containers running specifically for the spa workloads like big data and AML and we brought those technologies together to give the customers the choice of 100% coupon. It has to run both stateful and stateless workloads under the same pane of glass and we are very excited about this opportunity and we have actually talked to a lot of customers and the most important in addition to all of that is the, we also integrated the map, our technology, which is one of the very so robust and sophisticated data store that gives you a persistency for the containers. >>Kumar, John and I were coming out of the keynote and saying, if you're brand new in this environment, Oh my gosh, there's just so many projects and so many pieces. You know, when I think back, you know, who helped me along the way, uh, one of the pieces you picked up with CTP, cloud technology partner and you're talking about specific applications. So you know, really building those bridges to where customers are and helping them give us, if you could some of those key use cases where you're finding that that cloud native philosophy and where customers are, are looking for HPS help. Robert and I spend a lot of time over the last few months internally and talking to the customers. Our thesis is the, all the low hanging fruit applications have mode. It's actually the most difficult applications, both stateful and stateless applications. So customers are asking and say, we want to standardize, we want to have a abstract platform and Gouverneur does is it? And, but we wanted to have a platform that gives us the board hybrid opportunity. I wanted to be able to run the on prem >>when necessary, also on the public cloud. And I wanted to be able to have a same platform to run both stateful answered as application. Yeah. And that's, that's a really interesting point because what Kumar's really, really looking at is that the only way that an enterprise has been using the path that modernization has been been a public cloud, uh, trajectory. Okay. And they really haven't had anything on premises that gave them the set of services necessary to get parody between the two. And what we're finding and you know, been been involved with public cloud since 2010 right? So hundreds and hundreds of engagements, the portion that they thought they were going to move to cloud is substantially dropped the actual number of applications versus now those are going to stay on prem. And we were looking at each other and we're saying, Hey, this is a trifecta of opportunities with the containers coming in and the normalization of Kubernetes as the unified pass platform, the abstraction of bullying all the way down to bare metal, right? >>And giving those clients that true native architectures where they are not having to pay what we consider excessive prices to be putting in that, that world right there and then allowing that monetization practice to happen. So you've got to start with that platform, that, that container platform, and to do it in the way that the motion is going right now in the world today that's consistent with the public cloud. This is really important that you have to have consistency in your development environments, whether they're public or private. And that's where we believe is important. So Robert, you're seeing enterprises develop that. It sounds like you're seeing enterprises develop that operational experience and operational expertise, process development, independent of where their workloads are running. Well, that's the goal. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Well, right now they're siloed. Right? Okay. You've got a public operating model and you've got a private operating model. >>Right? And there's some people that tried to stitch this stuff together, but it's really difficult. What we're looking to do is given consistent plain across, all right? And when you have a consistent plane, a control point across all, no matter where you put your clusters and a management frame around it, now you have the ability to build an operating model that's consistent to go forward. Okay. So you know, we've been at the show for four years. I interviewed Joe beta, uh, and, and Joe says, he said, look, you know, Kubernetes, it's not a magic layer. It does not all of a sudden say add Coobernetti's in it and everything works every hair there. No, it's a very thin layer. I'm glad he said that. Washing my car from that happened on top. Right. If flip problem just rubbed Coobernetti's on it and get better. So Kumar, help us understand kind of the HPE stack if you work and what you put together and therefore it will be an enabler for customers in your application. Thank you. That's a very, very well said and I joke that Gouverneur does, we'll wash your car and post to read and babysit. And um, so I think he enjoys the ride, a lot of wisdom there. So what we found is, uh, content has an ensemble persistence always problem per se. So if I want, if >>I have a database running and my container goes away, we also notice that you want to make sure your endpoints are well secured and you want to expose only things what you want in the thing. We also found out that customers are more interested in applications and are giving me just the engine and the tires. I need to go from point a to point B. What blue data has done is actually it actually automates all your deployments of applications. We announced that product in September, so what what what this continent platform does is bring all these pieces together so the customers to be able to move to the deploy man and not worry about whether I have tires or I have an engine or not. In addition, I would like to find out that, I think Antonio talked about it the hour Sammo we want to come to the customers and it's the best possible lowest cost workload per application. >>This is why we think better metals are very, very, very important. Running containers on bare metal will Remos techs and and there is an, and we've been running better minerals in on bare metal containers in the blue data for almost five years. One of the things I think I wanted to add to that because I, you, you were guys saying, Hey, deploying Kubernetes and just add a little bit on top of that and it's all fine, right? I thought that was a great comment. Um, a lot of our clients are literally talking about container sprawl, right? It don't take anything to go to cncf.org and pull down could the Kubernetes distro launch it out there? And I've got a bunch of stuff running. They're popping up faster than all the shadow it did when the cloud, the public cloud started coming up, right? So you have this, this, um, motion that's uncontrolled, and if you're an enterprise and you're and governance and you're trying to put your arms around a global infrastructure that you want to be able to put your arms around that, more importantly, you may have one group running 1.15. >>You may have another group 0.1, 1.8. You may have two other groups that have an older version that's into production right now, and you have them all independently running. And then you need to maintain a multitenancy across all of that and then separate those. Okay. You have to have a system that does that. And so the container HP container platform does that. This is a huge differentiating with consistent data layer underneath and that, that abstraction between the two and that governance around it is so much bigger than what we consider just Kubernetes on its own and that world comfort zone. Right, right. >>Well, I, I to play on that, right. Uh, we used to say, talk about paths a lot, right? And then a lot of words were spilled. I, I, what I love about some of the work here is that it comes from actual use, you know, proven in production use cases, years of work, you, the rough edges, the, the, the sharp, the, the cuts on your hands. Um, so that's actually great. All open source also and, and, and contributed back to the community. Also. Interesting. There is a, um, you know, but as so as folks, and there's many ways of getting Kubernetes raw, Kubernetes, Kubernetes with pieces, uh, in this room right here. So, you know, an interesting set of technologies that you've put together that with, for ease of use and for, for governance and you know, at the, from the business, from the ops layer, from the, from the dev layer. >>Um, but there is a difference of speed sometimes of uh, of uh, you know, the, what the enterprise wants to move Kubernetes these releases every quarter. And you know, I and you know, the other projects released at their own pace. So in this open source philosophy, uh, and the HPE as a partner with the, you know, point next and, and you know, support is your middle name kind of, uh, you know, how do you, how do you marry the, the, the speed of the cloud native technologies and all of the open source, uh, collaboration with, with kind of the enterprise on the enterprise side and help them? >>Yeah, very good question. I think Robert Weiner, there's one other focus for us is we didn't want to provide, I think before the injury you are talking about the curator Cuban or that we are supporting a hundred percent covenant is open source. So Robert says, I am a developer. I want 1.19 and Stu says I want do I have a 1.17 because I'm stable on that. You can have both the clusters along with the blue data, Epic controller clusters in the same pane of glass. Now you can run big data applications, you can run your cloud narrative, you can run your cloud narrative because you are on 1.19 so that is our goal. So when the CNCF releases newer versions obviously that we will support it. And then as you pointed out, HP support is the middle lame. We have a point next organization we have a CDP. So we will help the customers and we will obviously support certain versions and make sure when somebody gives a call and help the customers. And so we want to give that flexibility so that the developers can deploy whatever the native new versions that are coming up under the umbrella of HP container. It's this Epic layer that's providing some of the multitenancy and governance and controls. >>Exactly right. So this, you know, if you look at the, the, the CNCF, uh, roadmap, they're their grid, right? And you see where Coobernetti's lands in that one piece. There's all these surrounding pieces like that. There's lots and lots of vendors here that have pieces of it, right? But it takes a system, right? And you know that, and then it takes an operating model around that. Then it takes a deployment and governance model around that, right? And then you have, so there's so much more that the enterprise world acquires to make this a legitimate platform that can be scaled. >>One thing that I would like to add it, I don't want to underplay the, the, the value of a persistent proven data layer that has been there for 10 years with the map, our map around some of the best and largest databases in the world. And we are now bringing those two together. It's a, it's a very, very profound and very, very useful for the, for the enterprises. You know, Robert, you were emphasizing the consistency that needs to happen, uh, explained to how that fits in with your partnerships with all the public clouds. Uh, because you know, you hear a very different Coobernetti's message if you go to the Google show versus the Azure versus AWS. And I see HPE know at all of them. >>That's absolutely true. So, you know, I was the CTO with cloud technology partners, right? So I joined in 2013 and it was, um, our, our whole world was how do we work with the three hyperscalers to bring some consistency across them, right? You know, and you have operating models that are different for all three. I mean, what runs on AWS in a certain way is going to run differently on Azure. What's going to be running differently in GCP, right? So the tooling, all that, all the pieces are different. You go pull that back on prem. Now you have a whole different conversation as well. So what we know is that you have to have a unification of behavioral control systems in place before, wherever you deploy your clusters, wherever those are going to be like that. So what we know is is that the tagging nomenclature, the tagging is key to all of this operational models. >>All your tools are gonna be using tagging. And when you go into existing environments, taggy will be inconsistent between, even with inside AWS will be consistent, inconsistent with an Azure. So you have to have a mapping. So what we have as part of our GreenLake offering that would come in together with this is we have a unification tagging layer that bridges that gap and unifies that into a consistent nomenclature and control plane that gives you a basis to have an operating model. This is a, this only gets exposed until you start having 2050 102 hundred clusters out there. And everybody goes, how do I put my arms around this? So it's very important that that, that's just one piece of it. But operating model, operating model, operating model, I keep going back to this every time. There's a bunch of people here can spin up manage clusters all day long and some of them doing better than others, but unless you surround it and you surround it with the stuff that he's talking about is a consistent data layer, persistent and a consistent management system of all these people's behaviors, you're going to get just an unbelievable out of control platform. >>Yup. Kumar, I'd love your viewpoint as to just the overall maturity of this ecosystem and where does HPE see their role as to, you know, we talked about, you know, data and you know, everything that's changing. I heard a lot in the keynote this morning about, >>uh, some of the progress that's being made, but I'd love your viewpoint there. HP is a legend in the Valley as you know. I mean, they've done every, we, all engineering calculator starts with HV calculator. HP recognize they missed a couple of transitions in the industry. And I think there's a new leadership with, uh, with our, with the Robert and me and other other key leaders recognizes this is a great opportunity for us. We see this window to help the customers. Make the modern digitalization transition the applications, taking the monolithic applications, doing microservices. You can. In fact, Robert and I was talking to a bank and they told us they have 6,000 applications built so far. They have micro service, four of them and, and, and we have actually what, what, what we believe with this application is you can actually run your monolithic applications in a container platform while you are figuring it right. So what we see is helping the customers make the digital transition and making sure that they have, they make, they go down this journey. That's what we see. Kumar, Robert, thank you so much for the updates. Congratulations on the launch. I look forward to seeing your presence. Thanks for having and cube. I allow Q. yeah. Thanks Jeff. Again, look for next time. Okay. All right. Bye. Thanks so much for John Troyer. I'm Stu Miniman. Lots more in our three days wall to wall coverage here at cube colon cloud native con 2019 thanks for watching. Fuck you..

(upbeat music) [Reporter] - Live from San Diego, California it's theCUBE covering Goodcloud and Cloud- Native cloud. Brought to you by Red Hat the Cloud-Native computing foundation. and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, we're here at Kubecon Cloud-Native con 2019 in San Diego, I'm Stu Miniman. We've got over 12,000 in attendance here and we have a three guest lineup of Kubecon veterans here. To my right is Loris Degioanni who's the CTO and founder of Sysdig. To his right, representing the Tiger is Amit Gupta who's vice president of business development and Product Management at Tigera, and also Knox Anderson who's Director of Product Management. We know from the Octopus, Amit, that also means that he's with Sysdig. So gentlemen, thank you all for joining. [Loris]- Octopus and Tiger >> Octopus and Tiger, bringing it all together on the tube. We have a menagerie as it were. So Loris, let's start as they said, you know all veterans, you've been here, you've almost been to every single one, something about a you know, a child being born made you miss one. [Loris] - The very first one. >> So, why don't you bring us in kind of what's so important about this ecosystem, why it's growing so fast and Sysdig's relationship with the community? >> Yeah, I mean, you can just look around, right? Kubecon is growing year after year, it's becoming bigger and bigger and this just a reflection of the community getting bigger and bigger every year, right? It's really looks like we are, you know, here with this community creating the next step, you know? For computing, for cloud computing, and really, you know, Kubernetes is becoming the operating system powering, you know, the cloud and the old CNC ecosystem around it is really becoming, essentially the ecosystem around it. And the beauty of it is it's completely open this time, right? For the first time in history. >> All right, so since you are the founder, I need to ask, give me the why? So we've been saying you know, we've been starting this program almost 10 years ago and the big challenge of our time is you know building software for distributed systems. Cloud's doing that, Edge is taking that even further. Bring us back to that moment of the birth of Sysdig and how that plays into all the open source and that growth you're talking about. >> Yeah, I mean, Sysdig was born, so first of all, a little bit of background of me. I've been working in open source and networking for my whole career. My previous company was the business behind washer, then it took on a live service, so, a huge open source community and working with enterprises all around the world, essentially to bring visibility over their neighbors. And then I started realizing the stack was changing radically, right? With the event of cloud computing. With the event of containers and Docker. With the event of Kubernetes. It, legacy ways of approaching the problem were just not working. Were not working the technical level because, you need to create something completely new for the new stack but they were also not working at the approach level. Every thing was proprietary. Every thing was in silos, right? So the approach now is much more, like inclusive and community first, and that's why I decided to start Sysdig. >> All right. so Amit, we know things are changing all the time. One thing that does not ever change is security is paramount. I really say, I go back 10 or 15 years you know, they've got a lot of lip service around security. Today, it's a board level discussion. Money, development, especially here in the Cloud-Native space it's really important so, talk about Tigera relationship with Sysdig and very much focused on the Kubernetes ecosystems. >> Absolutely. So I couldn't agree with you more, Stu. I mean, security is super critical and more so now as folks are deploying more and more mission critical applications on the Kubernetes based platform. So, Sysdig is a great partner for us. Tigera provides networking and network security aspects of that Kubernetes deployment. And if you think about it how modern applications are built today, you've taken a big large model and decomposed into hundreds of micro services so there's procedural cause that were happening inside the code and now API calls on the network so you've got a much bigger network with that service a highly distributed environment. So the traditional architectures where you manage the security typically with the firewall or a gateway, it's not sufficient. It's important, it's needed and that's really where, as people design their architecture, they have to think about how do you design security across that entire infrastructure in a distributed fashion or done in the early stages of your projects. >> Knox, help us understand the relationship here, how it fits into Sysdig's product with Tigera. >> Yeah, so we're great partners with Tigera. Tigera lives at the network security level. Sysdig's secure in that the product we built extends the instrumentation that Loris started off with our open source tool, to provide security across the entire container lifecycle. So at build time, making sure your images are properly configured, free of vulnerabilities at run time, looking at all the activity that's happening and then the big challenge in the Kubernetes space is around incident response and audit. So if something happens in that pod, Kubernetes is going to kill it before anyone can investigate and Sysdig helps you with those work flows. >> Maybe it would help, we all throw around those terms, Cloud-Native a lot and it's a term I've heard for a number of years. But the definition like cloud itself is one that you know matures over time and when we get there so, maybe if we focus in a little bit on Cloud-Native security. You know, what is it we're hearing from customers, what does it mean to really build Cloud-Native Security. What makes that different from the security we've been building in our data centers, in clouds for years? >> Well I thought Cloud-Native was just a buzzword. Does it actually mean something? (laughs) >> Well hopefully it's more than just a buzzword and that's what I'm hoping you could explain. >> Yeah, so again, the way I see it is the real change that you are witnessing is how software is being written. And we're touching a little bit on it at this point. Software intended to be architected as big monoliths now is being splayed into smaller components. And this is just a reflection of software development teams in a general way being much more efficient when you can essentially, break the problem into sub-problems and break the responsibilities into sub-responsibilities. This is perhaps something that is extremely beneficial especially in terms of productivity. But also, sort of revolutionizes the way you write software, you run software, you maintain software, CICD, you know continues development, continues integration, pipelines, the reliance on GIT and suppository to store everything. And this also means that, securing, monitoring, troubleshooting infrastructures becomes much different. And one of things we are seeing is legacy two's don't work anymore and the new approaches like Calico Networking or like Falco and runtime security or like Sysdig secure, for the lifecycle and security of containers are something bubbling up as alternatives to the old way of doing things. >> I would add to that I agree with you. I would add that if you're defining a Cloud-Native security the Cloud-Native means it's a distributed architecture. So your security architecture has got to be distributed as well, absolutely got a plan for that. And then to your point, you have to automate the security as part of the various aspects of your lifecycle. Security can not be an afterthought you have to design for that right from the beginning and then one last thing I would add is just like your applications are being deployed in an automated fashion your security has to be done in that fashion so, policy is good, infrastructure is good and the security is just baked in as part of that process. It's critical you design that way to get the best outcomes. >> Yeah, and I'd say the asset landscape has completely changed. Before you needed to surface finding against a host or an IP. Now you need to surface vulnerabilities and findings against clusters, name spaces, deployments, pods, services and that huge explosion of assets is making it much harder for teams to triage events, vulnerabilities and it's really changing the process in how the sock works. >> And I think that the landscape of the essence is changing also is reflected on the fact that the persona landscape is changing. So, the separation between attempts and operation people is becoming thinner and thinner and more and more security becomes a responsibility of the operation team, which is the team in charge of essentially owning the infrastructure and taking care of it, not only for the operational point of view but also from the security. >> Yeah, I think I've heard the point that you've made a many times. Security can't be a bolt on or an afterthought. It's really something fundamental, we talk about DevOps is, it needs to be just baked into the process, >> Yeah. >> It's, as I've heard chanted at some conferences, you know, security is everyone's responsibility, >> Correct. >> make sure you step up. We're talking a lot about open source here. There's a couple of projects you mentioned, Falco and Calico, you're partners with Red hat. I remember going to the Red Hat show years ago and they'd run these studies and be like, people are worried that open source and security couldn't go side by side, but no, no you could actually, you know open source is secure but taking the next step and talking about building security products with open source give us, where that stands today and how customers are you know embracing that? And how can it actually keep up with the ever expanding threat surfaces and attacks that are coming out? >> Yeah. First of all as we know open source is actually more secure and we're getting proof of that you know, pretty much on a daily basis including you know, the fact that tools like Kubernetes are regularly scrutinized by the security ecosystem and the vulnerabilities are found early on and disclosed. In particular, Sysdig is the original creator of Falco which is an open source, CNCF phased anomaly detection system that is based on collecting high granular data from a running Kubernetes environment. For example, through the capture of the system calls and understanding the activity of the containers and being able to alert about the anomalous behavior. For example, somebody being able to break into your container, extricating data or modifying binaries, or you know perpetrating an attack or stuff like that. We decided to go with an approach that is open source first because, first of all, of course, we believe into participating with the community and giving something as an inclusive player to the community. But also we believe that you really achieve better security by being integrated in the stack, right? It's very hard , for example, to have, I don't know, security in AWS that is deeply integrated with the cloud stack upon us, alright? Because this it's propietary. Why would Kubernetes solutions like Falco or even like Calico, we can really work with the rest of the community to have them really tightly coupled and so much more effective than we could do in the past. >> You know, I mean I would make one additional point to your question. It's not only that users are adopting open source security. It's actually very critical that security solutions are available as an open source, because, I mean, look around us here this is a community of open source people, they're building and distributing infrastructure platform from that is all open source so we're doing this service if we don't offer a good set of security tools to them, not an open source. So that's really our fundamental model that's why Calico provides two key problems networking and network security for our users, you deploy your clusters, your infrastructures, and you have all the bells and whistles you need to be able to run a highly secure, highly performing cluster in your environment and I believe that's very critical for this community. >> Yeah, and I'd say that and now with open source, prevention has moved into the platform. So, with network policy and things like Calico or in our 3.0 launch we incorporated the ability to automate tests and apply pod security policies. And those types of prevention mechanisms weren't available on your platforms before. >> Okay, I often find if you've got any customer examples, talk about, you know, how they're running this production kind of the key, when they use your solutions you know, the benefits that they're having? >> Yeah, I'll take a few examples. I mean, today it is probably fair to say Calico from the partial phone home data we get a 100,000 plus customers across the globe, some of the, I can't take the actual names of the customers but, so the largest banks are using Calico for their enterprise networking scenarios and essentially, the policies, the segmentation inside the clusters should be able to manage the security for those workloads inside their environments. So that's how I would say. >> Yeah, and Sysdig, we, have an open core base with Falco, and then we offer a commercial product called Sysdig secure, in particular, last week we release version 3.0 of our commercial product which is another interesting dynamic because if we can offer the open core essentially to the community but then offer additional features with our commercial product. And Falco is installed in many, many thousands extension of platforms. and Sysdig secure you know secures, and offers visibility to the biggest enterprises in the world. We have deployments that are at a huge scale with the biggest banks, insurance companies, media companies, and we tend to fall to cover the full life cycle of applications because as the application and as the software moves in the CICD pipeline so security needs to essentially accompany the application through the different stages. >> All right, well thank you all three of you for providing the update. Really appreciate you joining us in the program and have a great rest of the week >> Thank you very much. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> We'll be back with more coverage here from Kubecon, Cloud-Nativecon. I'm Stu Miniman and thanks for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> From our studios, in the heart of Silicon Valley, Palo Alto, California, this is a CUBE Conversation. >> Okay, welcome back everyone. We're here in Palo Alto, California at the CUBE studios. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. For a special CUBE conversation, a preview of the upcoming KubeCon, Cloud Native Con in San Diego. Where theCUBE will be there, as well as a bunch of other folks. The New Stack will be there, a lot of other media producers, as well as the big conference. KubeCon, in it's fourth or fifth year, depending on which year you count. Its a super exciting conference, this is where the Kubernetes and the Cloud Native communities come together to set the agenda to talk about all the great things that are going on in the industry and how it's changing tech for good. We're here with Vicki Cheung, who is the Co-Chair and also Software Engineer Manager at Lyft. Vicki great to see you, thanks for coming in. >> Thanks for having me. >> I'm so proud of KubeCon and the community because when we were there, in the early days, when it was kind of forming and created. There was a big vision that it would play a critical role. A lot of people haven't really seen how big it's become. And it's really become so important that the big companies are now moving towards Open Source, the CNC has been very successful. Both on getting vendors in and end user projects. You're setting the agenda. You're setting the table for this year's KubeCon. >> Yeah. >> Tell us what's going on. >> Yeah, I think we're seeing the maturity of the community coming together. It's sort of continuing on this trend where, as you said, the adoption is growing exponentially. I think, that two years ago if you surveyed the room and asked people, "who is using Kubernetes and Docker in production, you'd maybe get, like, a hand. I think you're seeing this thing where, this trend, where this year, I think, if you surveyed the room, it would be like maybe half the room were raising their hands. >> And the acceleration is interesting. You're seeing in, I mean, huge acceleration of the adoption of Kubernetes and other projects. And I think what's interesting to me, and I think commentary that we've been reporting on is that Kubernetes can be that unifying point. And you're seeing this, de facto standard emerging and a lot of people talking about that de facto. And that has accelerated the Production Use Cases. So, the End User Projects are increasing. Is that going to be a focus or main focus of this year's KubeCon? >> Oh yeah, definitely. I think we're seeing, maybe even last year, we've had a lot of end user talks from, you know, early adopters start ups, like tech giants. But this year we're seeing a lot more enterprise use cases. And that's driving a lot of content as well. So, I think when it comes enterprise use cases, we're seeing a lot of talks around security and governance. We're seeing a lot of developer productivity talks, and we're also seeing a lot more focus on how to scale operations. >> So, take me through the focus this year. Let's get this out on the table, because this is a big event. What can people expect this year, when you guys sat in the room, with the teams, and said, "Okay, here's going to be the Con and agenda, "we have a form of that's not broken, let's not fix, what's not broken, so the format's good." What was the focus, what was this year's focus. What's going to be the focus of this year's KubeCon? >> Yeah, I think Bryan and I, when we sit together, we have all the tracks that we've been using, for the last couple of years. And generally we, sort of stick to them, because they're pretty good. But the way we, I think the interesting thing is, we see over the years how the distribution across the tracks have changed. So, for example, I think this year, operations is a super big track, and it's very competitive to get into. And that's because we're seeing a lot more adoption at scale, and different Use cases, different types of companies and production. So, I think that track have been a main focus. And also, I think customizing Kubernetes is another one, as people's use cases got more sophisticated. And in the serve use case track, I think we see a lot more enterprise, like even banks adopting Kubernetes. >> So, essentially the same game as before, but weighting them differently based on adoption? >> Exactly, I think it's a shift, like earlier it would be maybe more like earlier adopter and serve experimental use cases, and now it's like, people are actually going into production now. So, the shift has been into like, how do we get this running reliably, at scale. So, that's what we're seeing. >> In terms of the industry, if you look back, and again you guys went public at Lyft, and you guys are growing, and you guys have a great open source product with Envoy, I'm sure you guys are going to do the Day Zero thing again this year, last year was a big success. Is there any projects that you see coming out of the woodwork that are going to evolve up? And what can people expect in terms of project growth or emerging projects. Is there any indication, from your standpoint? What's going to come out of the community? >> Yeah, I think there's a lot of projects that are growing, like Helm continues to grow. I think one thing that I'm seeing, from this year's content is there's a lot of focus on, OPA. Like I said, the security is sort of a growing focus. And OPA is certainly one of the things I think people should expect at this year's conference. Another area that I'm personally very interested in, and I see, I'm happy to see it popping up more this year, is developer experience and developer productivity. As we're, even just personally witnessing at Lyft, adopting Cloud Native Architecture, microservices and Kubernetes, comes with a lot of benefits, but also a lot of new challenges into how people should develop in this ecosystem. So, there are projects like Telepresence and Tilt that are coming up more. And there's a few talks around that, in application and development as well. >> How about the developer's side? What's the general sentiment in the community these days? If you had to kind of, put a parameter out there, what's the general vibe in the community, from a developer's stand point around Cloud Native and Kubernetes? >> I think there's, I think it depends on who you ask. Generally, you know, people are very very excited to be sort of moving in this direction. And I think it allows people to be a lot more flexible in how they develop their applications. But I also think that there's a lot of open questions, that we still have to answer. And this is where, I guess some of these new projects come into help fill the gap. >> Well first of all, you guys have, always have a great conference, theCUBE will be there, as well media producer will be a lot on digital. So, folks not going to the event, they should go and see the face-to-face. I want to get the take on some of the submissions. You guys have an interesting dynamic and CNCF and KubeCon and Cloud Native Con, you have a ton of end user projects, A lot of end user focus, obviously it's an end user focused show. But you also have a lot of vendors, suppliers that are also in the community. So, you have an interesting balance going on. Talk about some of the numbers in terms of submissions, because I know, everyone's got submissions, not everyone gets accepted, like the operations you mentioned is a hot track. What's some of the numbers? Can you share any, kind of statistics around number of submissions versus acceptance? >> Yeah, I think typically CNCF will publish some of the numbers, in a blog post. So, I don't know all the numbers off the top of my head. But for example, in operations, I think the acceptance rate was maybe less than 10%. I think, it wasn't that competitive, maybe two years ago, but certainly as everyone moves to deploying Kubernetes on their own, that's sort of a hot topic. >> What's the relationship in the community, with the big vendors? Obviously you see, Amazon, Google, Microsoft, are big players in there, and they're investing heavily in Kubernetes. And VMware, as well, is also investing. Is that good, bad, is it just balancing? What's the communities view on the participation of the big guys? >> Yeah, I think it's actually been really great to the community and I personally would not have expected Microsoft, ADBS to be as active in the community as they are now, if you asked me five years ago. So, I think it's this interesting thing that Kubernetes and CNCF hasn't managed to do, is instead of having the tech giants having to suck out the energy and the technology into their private ecosystem. It's been the other way around. Where Microsoft and ADBS and Google have been contributing a lot of their integrations and other tooling and projects that they've built on top of the projects in CNCF. And just enriching the community. >> So, you're saying that they've been pushing more towards open source, not pulling out of it? >> Yeah. I think that's, obviously I'm super happy to see that. But I think that was not obvious at all from the beginning. >> Yeah, it's super exciting, you know we've been tracking the business model's evolution. And open source is more powerful than ever before now. And it's growing so fast and changing. Let's talk about the Enterprises now, because I think you're seeing adoption on the classic IT Enterprise moving in. We've interviewed many CSO's, CIO's and practitioners, they all have the same kind of reaction, "Oh my God, this is so good for our business, "Kubernetes what Containers are doing, "will allow us to manage the life cycle of our applications. "The same time bringing Cloud Native, "without a lot of disruption." What's your reaction to that, are you guys seeing that same dynamic? And if so, what is some of the use cases of Enterprises, within KubeCon? >> Yeah, I think one thing is, the earlier pitch is the, of course allows you to have that flexibility to move from your data center to Hybrid Cloud, and maybe to different cloud vendors. So, I think that's super appealing. But another thing that we're seeing this year is, as people adopted at scale they're also seeing a lot of cost savings from adopting Kubernetes, just because it allows them to be a lot more flexible in how they deploy things. I think that, in general as you move to serve a community standard, an Open Source Platform, it does help your developers a lot, because now they don't need to build their own in-house thing, which is, for example, what Lyft had before Kubernetes. So, I think it's generally a productivity win. >> So, on Envoy real quick, while I got you here. Lyft has been involved in donating that project and driving it last year, one of the most notable news, at least from out observation was, that the Envoy did that event the day before. And it was really popular. >> Yeah >> Is it going to happen again? What's some of the views on that? >> Yeah, so EnvoyCon is happening again this year, right before Kubernetes. I think it's even more popular than last year. So, there's going to be a lot of talks around, running Envoy at scale, and also on top of Kubernetes. As people sort of integrate the two technologies more. >> Okay, so I got to ask you the personal observations, you can take your Co-Chair hat off and put your KubeCon community hat on. What dark horses are out there, that you think may surprise people this year? What do you think might happen? Because there is always something that goes on, that's just a surprise, a dark horse, if you will, comes out of the woodwork, what do you think might happen? >> Well, I think there's of course going to be a few new Open Source projects that are launched there. And I also think there will be a lot of, maybe more than usual, interesting people that people can meet at the conference. >> I heard there's a rumor that the original gangsters, or the OG's or the original members, the seven original members are going to be there. >> Yeah, I don't-- >> Confirm or deny? >> I don't know if I can confirm or deny, but-- >> Okay, I think that's a yes, possibly. We'll be tracking that, okay, final question for you. What do you think will be the most important story for people to pay attention to this year? What do you think is going to be, evolving out on the stage? Out on the tracks, out on digital? What do you expect to see this year? What is some of the top stories and top notable points that you think is going to happen this year? >> Yeah, I think one thing that maybe, for me, and for a lot of people is this message that Kubernetes is ready. I think it's been sort of building up in this hype for the last few years. And we've seen adoption, but I think this is truly the year that I see a lot of Enterprise end user cases and I can really say that Kubernetes is ready. >> So the new criteria is proof points? Scale, operationally seeing some operations, real proof points, customer adoption, enterprise and hyperscalers? >> Yeah. >> All right, Vicki thanks for coming in and sharing this preview on KubeCon, Cloud Native Con. It's theCUBE covering the KubeCon, Cloud Native Con preview with Vicki Co-Chair, who set the agenda with her fellow Co-Chair Bryan Liles, as well. Great to have her on and share upcoming conversation around KubeCon. I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> Live from Barcelona, Spain, it's the Cube, covering KubeCon CloudNativeCon Europe 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and Ecosystem Partners. >> Welcome back, this is theCube getting towards the end of two days live wall-to-wall coverage here at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon 2019 in Barcelona. I'm Stu Miniman, my co-host for this week has been Corey Quinn and happy to have on one of our hosts for this week from the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, Dee Kumar, the Vice President of Marketing, also helps with developer relations. Dee, welcome back to the program. >> Thanks for having me. >> And thank you for having us. We've been having a great time this week, a lot of buzz, a lot of people and obviously always a lot of enthusiasm at the show here. Thanks so much. Alright, so your team has been super busy. I've talked with a lot of them leading up to the show. >> That's right. >> Anybody that knows any show of this kind of magnitude know we're usually pretty exhausted before we get on planes and change all the time zones. So, you know, thank you for holding strong. Give us a little bit about, you know, when we talk marketing, you have a big annual report that came out recently from 2018. Give us some of the highlights of some of the things you've been seeing. >> Yeah, sure. Like you mentioned, you're seeing all the excitement and buzz here so this is our largest open-source developer conference, when compared to the last year we did in Copenhagen. So we have close to 8,000 attendees so we're really excited about that. And you're absolutely right, with that comes, we're so exhausted, but we really appreciate. I think the reason the conference has been so successful is primarily just because of the community engagement, which I highlight in the annual report. So it's a combination of our community, which is the developers, the contributors, also our end users, and the third significant portion of our ecosystem is our members. So we recently just announced that CNCF has crossed over 400 members, our end user community is growing, I think Sheryl mentioned this morning in the keynote, we have about 81 end users and this is phenomenal because end of the day, end users are companies who are not commercializing Cloud Native, but essentially they're using these products or technologies internally, so they are essentially the guinea pig of Cloud Native technologies and it's really important to learn from them. >> Well Dee, and actually it's interesting, you know, celebrating the five years of Kubernetes here, I happened to talk to a couple of the OG's of the community, Joe Beta, Tim Hawkin and Gabe Monroy. And I made a comment to Joe, and I'm like, "Well Google started it, but they brought in the Ecosync and pulled in a lot of other vendors too, it's people. And Gabe said, he's like "yeah, I started Deis and I was one of the people >> Absolutely. >> that joined in." So, we said this community is, it's people more than it's just the collection of the logos on the slides. >> Absolutely, I completely agree. And the other thing I also want to point out is a neutral home, like CNCF, it definitely increases contributions. And the reason I say that is, having a neutral home helps the community in terms of engaging and what is really interesting again, going back to the annual report is Google had a leadership role and most of the contributors were from Google, and now with having a neutral home, I think Google has done a phenomenal job to make sure that the contributors are not just limited to Google. And we're seeing all the other companies participating. We're also seeing a new little graph of independent contributors, who are essentially not associated with any companies and they've been again, very active with their comments or their engagement with overall, in terms of, not just limiting to Kubernetes, but all the other CNCF projects. >> So, this is sort of a situation of being a victim of your own success to some extent, but I've mentioned a couple of times today with various other guests, that this could almost be called a conference about Kubernetes and friends, where it feels like that single project casts an awfully long shadow, when you talk to someone who's vaguely familiar with the CNCF, it's "Oh you mean the Kubernetes people?" "Cool, we're on the same page." How do you, I guess from a marketing perspective begin to move out from under that shadow and become something that is more than a single project foundation? >> Yeah, that's a great question, and the way we are doing that is, I think, Kubernetes has become an economic powerhouse essentially, and what it has done is, it's allowed for other start-ups and other companies to come in and start creating new projects and technologies built around Kubernetes, so essentially, now, you're no longer talking about one single project. It's no longer limited to containers or orchestration, or just micro-services, which was the conversation 3 years ago at KubeCon, and today, what you will see is, it's about talking about the ecosystem. So, the way, from a marketing perspective, and it's actually the reality as well, is Kubernetes has now led to other growing projects, it's actually helped other developers come onboard, so now we are seeing a lot more co-ord, a lot more contributions, and now, CNCF has actually become a home to 35+ projects. So when it was founded, we had about 4 projects, and now it's just grown significantly and I think Kubernetes was the anchor tannin, but now we're just talking about the ecosystem as a whole. >> Dee, I'm wondering if it might be too early for this, but do you have a way of measuring success if I'm someone that has rolled out Kubernetes and some of the associated projects? When I talked to the early Kubernetes people, it's like, Kubernetes itself is just an enabler, and it's what we can do with it and all the pieces that go with it, so I don't know that there's spectrums of how are we doing on digital transformation, and it's a little early to say that there's a trillion dollars of benefit from this environm... but, do you have any measure today, or thoughts as to how we can measure the success of everything that comes out of the... >> Yeah, so I think there was Redmont, they published a report last year and it looks like they're in the process of updating, but it is just phenomenal to see, just based on their report, over 50% of fortune 100 companies have started to use Kubernetes in production, and then I would say, more than, I think, to be accurate, 71% of fortune 100 companies are using containers, so I think, right there is a big step forward. Also, if you look at it last year, Kubernetes was the first project to graduate, so one of the ways we also measure, in terms of the success of these projects, is the status that we have within CNCF, and that is completely community driven, so we have a project that's very early stage, it comes in as a sandbox, and then just based on the community growth, it moves onto the next stage, which is incubating, and then, it takes a big deal to graduate, and to actually go to graduation, so we often refer to those stages of the projects to Jeffery Moore, in terms of crossing the chasm. We've talked about that a lot. And again, to answer your question, in terms of how exactly you measure success is just not limited to Kubernetes. We had, this year, a few other projects graduates, we have 6 projects that have graduated within CNCF. >> How do you envision this unfolding in the next 5 years, where you continue to accept projects into the foundation? At some point, you wind up with what will only be described as a sarcastic number of logos on a slide for all of the included projects. How do you effectively get there without having the Cheesecake Factory menu problem of... the short answer is just 'yes', rather than being able to list them off coz no one can hold it all in their head anymore? >> Great question, we're still working on it. We do have a trail map that is a representation of 'where do I get started?', so it's definitely not prescriptive, but it kind of talks about the 10 steps, and it not only talks about it from a technology perspective, but it also talks about processes and people, so we do cover the DevOp, CICD cycle or pipeline. The other thing I would say is, again, we are trying to find other creative ways to move past the logos and landscape, and you're absolutely right, it's now becoming a challenge, but, you know, our members with 400+ members within CNCF. The other way to actually look at it is, back to my earlier point on ecosystems. So one of the areas that we are looking at is, 'okay, now, what next after orchestration?', which is all about Kubernetes is, now I think there's a lot of talks around security, so we're going to be looking at use cases, and also Cloud Native storage is becoming another big theme, so I would say we now have to start thinking more about solutions, solution, the terminology has always existed in the enterprise world for a long time, but it's really interesting to see that come alive on the Cloud Native site. So now we are talking about Kubernetes and then a bunch of other projects. And so now, it's like that whole journey from start to finish, what are the things that I need to be looking at and then, I think we are doing our best with CNCF, which is still a part of a playbook that we're looking to write in terms of how these projects work well together, what are some common use cases or challenges that these projects together can solve. >> So, Dee, we're here at the European show, you think back a few years ago it was a public cloud, there was very much adoption in North America, and starting to proliferate throughout the world. Alibaba is doing well in China and everything. CNCF now does 3 shows a year, you do North America, you do Europe and we've got the one coming up in China. We actually did a segment from our studio previewing the OpenStack Summit, and KubeCon show there, so maybe focus a little bit about Europe. Is there anything about this community and this environment that maybe might surprise people from your annual data? >> Yes, so if you look at... we have a tool called DevStart, it's open source, anyone can look at it, it's very simple to use, and based on that, we kind of monitor, what are the other countries that are active or, not just in terms of consuming, but who are actually contributing. So if you look at it, China is number 2, and therefore our strategy is to have a KubeCon in China. And then from a Euro perspective, I think the third leading country in terms of contributions would be Europe, and therefore, we have strategically figured out where do we want to host our KubeCon, and in terms of our overall strategy, we're pretty much anchoring to those 3 regions, which is North America, Europe as well as China. And, the other thing that we are also looking at is, we want to expand our growth in Europe as well, and now we have seen the excitement here at our KubeCon Barcelona, so we are looking to offer some new programs, or, I would say, new event types outside of KubeCon. Kind of you want to look at it as mini KubeCons, and so those would explore more in terms of different cities in Europe, different cities in other emerging markets as well. So that's still in the works. We're really excited to have, I would say 2 new event types that we're exploring, to really get the community to run and drive these events forward as well, outside of their participation in KubeCon because, oftentimes, I hear that a developer would love to be here, but due to other commitments, or, their not able to travel to Europe, so we really want to bring these events local to where they are, so that's essentially a plan for the next 5 years. >> It's fascinating hearing you describe this, because, everything you're saying aligns perfectly with what you'd expect from a typical company looking to wind up, building adoption, building footprints etc., Only, you're a foundation. Your fundamental goal at the end of it is user engagement, of people continuing to participate in the community, it doesn't turn into a 'and now, buy stuff', the only thing you have for sale here that I've noticed is a T-shirt, there's no... Okay, you also have other swag as well, not the important part of the story, I'm curious though, as far as, as you wind up putting all of this together, you have a corporate background yourself, was that a difficult transition to navigate, as far as, getting away from getting people to put money in towards something in the traditional sense, and more towards getting involved in a larger ecosystem and community. >> That was a big transition for me, just having worked on the classic B2B commercial software side, which is my background, and coming in here, I was just blown away with how people are volunteering their time and this is not where they're getting compensated for their time, it's purely based on passion, motivation and, when I've talked to some key community organizers or leaders who have done this for a while, one of the things that has had an impact on me is just the strong core values that the communities exhibit, and I think it's just based on that, the way they take a project and then they form a working group, and then there are special interest groups that get formed, and there is a whole process, actually, under the hood that takes a project from where Kubernetes was a few years ago, and where it is today, and I think it's just amazing to see that it's no longer corporate driven, but it's more how communities have come together, and it's also a great way to be here. Oftentimes... gone are the days where you try to set up a meeting, people look forward to being at KubeCon and this is where we actually get to meet face-to-face, so it's truly becoming a networking event as well, and to build these strong relationships. >> It goes even beyond just users, I mean, calling this a user conference would not... it would be doing it a bit of disservice. You have an expo hall full of companies that are more or less, in some cases, sworn enemies from one another, all coexisting peacefully, I have seen no fist-fights in the 2 days that we've been here, and it's fascinating watching a community effort get corporate decision makers and stakeholders involved in this, and it seems that everyone we've spoken to has been having a good time, everyone has been friendly, there's not that thousand yard stare where people are depressed that you see in so many other events, it's just something I've never experienced before. >> You know, that's a really amazing thing that I'm experiencing as well. And also, when we do these talks, we really make it a point to make sure that it's not a vendor pitch, and I'm not being the cop from CNCF policing everyone, and trying to tell them that, 'hey, you can't have a vendor pitch', but what I'm finding is, even vendors, just did a silverless talk with AWS, and he's a great speaker, and when he and I were working on the content, he in fact was, "you know, you're putting on that hat", and he's like, "I don't want to talk about AWS, I really want to make sure that we talk about the underlying technology, focusing on the projects, and then we can always build on top, the commercial aspect of it, and that's the job for the vendor. So, I think it's really great collaboration to see how even vendors put on the hat of saying, 'I'm not here to represent my products, or my thing', and of course they're here to source leads and stuff, but at the end of the day, the underlying common protocol that's already just established without having explicit guidelines saying, 'this is what you need to be following or doing', it's just like an implicit understanding. Everyone is here to promote the community, to work with the community, and again, I think I really want to emphasize on the point that people are very welcoming to this concept of a neutral home, and that really had helped with this implicit understanding of the communities knowing that it's not about a vendor pitch and you really want to think about a project or a technology and how to really use that project, and what are the use cases. >> It's very clear, that message has resonated well. >> Dee, thank you. We've covered a lot of ground, we want to give you the final word, anything else? We've covered the event, we've covered potential little things and the annual report. Any last words you have for us that you want people to take away? >> Not really, I think, like I said, it's the community that's doing the great work. CNCF has been the enabler to bring these communities together. We're also looking at creating a project journey it terms of how these projects come into CNCF, and how CNCF works with the communities, and how the project kind of goes through different stages. Yeah, so there are a lot of great things to come, and looking forward to it. >> Alright, well, Dee, thank you so much for all of the updates, and a big thank you, actually, to the whole CNCF team for all they've done to put this together. We really appreciate the partnership here. For Corey Quinn, I'm Stu Miniman. Back to wrap 2 days, live coverage, here at KubeCon, Cloud Native Con 2019, Thanks for watching the Cube. >> Thank you.

>>Live from Barcelona, Spain, execute covering CubeCon cloud native con Europe, 2019 onto you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and ecosystem partners. >>Welcome back. We're here in Barcelona, Spain where 7,700 attendees are here for Q con cloud native con. I'm Stu Miniman and this is the cubes live two day coverage having to have on the program to returning guests to talk about five years of Kubernetes. To my right is Tim Hawkin wearing the Barna contributors shirt. Uh, and uh, sitting to his right is gay Bon Roy. So, uh, I didn't introduce their titles and companies, but you know, so Tim's and Google gives it Microsoft, uh, but you know, heavily involvement in uh, you know, Coobernetti's since the very early days. I mean, you know, Tim, you're, you're on the Wikipedia page game, you know, I think we have to do some re editing to make sure we get the community expanded in some of the major contributors and get you on there. But gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us. Thanks for having us. >>Alright. Uh, so, you know, Tim just spoke to Joe Beda and we talked about, you know, the, the, the idea of, you know, Craig and Brendan and him sitting in the room and, you know, open source and, you know, really bringing this out there to community. But let's start with you. Cause he, you know, uh, I remember back many times in my career like, Oh, I read this phenomenal paper about Google. You know, we're going to spend the next decade, you know, figuring out the ripple effect of this technology. Um, you know, Coobernetti's has in five years had a major impact on, on what we're doing. Uh, it gives a little bit of your insight is to, you know, what you've seen from those early days, you know. >>Yeah. You know, um, in the early days we had the same conversations we produced. These papers are, you know, seminal in the industry. Um, and then we sort of don't follow up on them sometimes as Google. Um, we didn't want this to be that, right. We wanted this to be alive living thing with a real community. Uh, that took root in a different way than MapReduce, Hadoop sort of situation. Um, so that was very much front of mind as we work through what are we going to build, how are we going to build and how are we going to manage it? How are we going to build a community? How, how do you get people involved? How do you find folks like Gaiman and Deus and get them to say we're in, we want to be a part of this. >>All right, so Gabe, it was actually Joe corrected me when I said, well, Google started it and they pulled in some other like-minded vendors. Like he said, no, no stew. We didn't pull vendors in. We pulled in people and people that believed in the project and the vision, you were one of those people that got pulled in early. He were, you know, so help give us a little context in your, your viewpoint. I did. And, and, and you know, at the time I was working for a company, uh, called, uh, that I had started and we were out there trying to make developers more productive in industry using modern technology like containers. And you know, it was through the process of trying to solve problems for customers, sort of the lens that I was bringing, uh, to this where, um, I was introduced to some really novel technology approaches first through Docker. >>Uh, and you know, I was close with Solomon hikes, the, the founder over there. Uh, and then, you know, started to work closely with folks at Google, uh, namely Brendon burns, who I now work with at Microsoft. Um, you know, part of the, the founding Kubernetes team. Uh, and I, I agree with that statement that it is really about people. It's really about individual connections at the end of the day. Um, I think we do these things that at these coupons, uh, events called the contributor summits. And it's very interesting because when folks land at one of these summits, it's not about who you work for, what Jersey you're wearing, that sort of thing. It's people talking to people, trying to solve technical problems, trying to solve organizational challenges. Uh, and I think, you know, the, the phenomenon that's happened there and the scale with which that's happened is part of the reason why there's 8,000 people here in Barcelona today. >>Yeah. It's interesting to him cause you know, I used to be involved in some standards work and I've been, you know, working with the open source community for about 20 years. It used to be ah, you know, it was the side project that people did at nights and everything like that. Today a lot of the people that are contributing, well they do have a full time job and their job will either let them or asking them to do that. So I do talk to people here that when they're involved in the working groups, when they're doing these things, yes. You think about who their paycheck comes for, but that's secondary to what they're doing as part of the community. And it is, you know, some of the people what, what >>absolutely. It's part of the ethos of the project that the project comes first and if company comes second or maybe even third. Uh, and for the most part, this has been wildly successful. Uh, there's this huge base of trust among, uh, among the leadership and among the contributors. Um, and you know, it's, it's a big enough project now that I don't know every one of the contributors, but we have this web of trust. And, you know, I, I have this, this army of people that I know and I trust very well and they know people and they know people and it works out that the project has been wildly successful and we've never yet had a major conflict or strife that centered on company this or company that. >>Yeah. And I don't, I'd also add that it's an important development has happened in the wake of Kubernetes where, you know, for example, in my teams at Microsoft, I actually have dedicated PM and engineering staff where their only job is to focus on community engagements, right? Running the release team for communities one 15 or working on IPV six support or windows container support. Uh, and, and that work, that upstream work, uh, puts folks in contact with people from all different companies, Google, uh, uh, you know, Microsoft working closely together on countless initiatives. Uh, and the same is true really for the entire community. So I think it's really great to see that you can get not just sort of the interpersonal interactions. We can also get sort of corporate sponsorship of that model. Cause I do think at the end of the day people need to get their paychecks. Uh, and oftentimes that's going to come from a big company. Uh, and, and seeing that level of investment is, I think, uh, pretty encouraging. Okay. Well, you know, luckily five years in we've solved all the problems and everything works perfectly. Um, if that's not maybe the case, where do we need people involved? What things should we be looking at? Kind of the, the, the next year or two in this space, you know, a project >>of this size, a community of this size, a system of this scope has infinite work to do, right? The, the, the barrel is never going to be empty. Um, and in some cases it's filling faster than it's draining. Um, every special interest group, every SIG, it has a backlog of issues of things that they would like to see fixed of features that they have some user pounding the table saying, I need this thing to work. Uh, IPV six is a great example, right? And, and we have people now stepping up to take on these big issues because they have customers who need it or they see it as important foundational work for building future stuff. Um, so, you know, there's, there's no shortage of work to do. That's not just engineering work though, right? It's not just product definition or API. We have a, what we call a contributor experience. People who work with our community to entre online, uh, new contributors and um, and, and streamline how to get them in and involved in documentation and testing and release engineering. And there's so much sort of non-core work. Uh, I could go on on this for. >>Yeah, you're just reminding me of the session this morning is I don't manage clusters. I manage fleets. And you have the same challenge with the people. Yeah. And I also had another dimension to this about just the breadth of contribution. We were just talking before the show that, um, you know, outside at the logo there is this, uh, you know, characters, book characters, and such. And really that came from a children's book that was created to demonstrate core concepts, uh, to developers who were new to Kubernetes. And it ended up taking off and it was eventually donated to the CNCF. Um, but things like that, you can't underestimate the importance and impact that that can have on making sure that Kubernetes is accessible to a really broad audience. Okay. Uh, yeah, look, I want to give you both a, just the, the, the final word as to w what you shout out, you one for the community and uh, yeah. And any special things that have surprised you or exciting you? Uh, you know, here in 2019, >>uh, you know, exciting is being here. If you rewind five years and tell me I'm going to in Barcelona with with 7,500 of my best friends, uh, I would think you are crazy or are from Mars. Um, this is amazing. And uh, I thank everybody who's here, who's made this thing possible. We have a ton of work to do. Uh, and if you feel like you can't figure out what you need to work on, come talk to me and we'll, we'll figure it out. >>Yeah. And for me, I just want to give a big thank you to all the maintainers folks like Tim, but also, you know, some other folks who, you know, may, you may not know their name but they're the ones slogging it out and to get hub PRQ you know, trying to just make the project work and function day to day and were it not for their ongoing efforts, we wouldn't have any of this. So thank you to that. Well and look, thank you. Of course, to the community and thank you both for sharing with our community. We're always happy to be a small piece of a, you know, helping to spread the word and uh, give some voice to everything that's going on here. Thank you so much. All right, so we will be back with more coverage here from coupon cloud native con 2019 on Stu Miniman and thank you for watching the cube.

>> Live from Seattle, Washington, it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and Cloud Native Con North America 2018. Brought to you by RedHat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Okay welcome back everyone we're here live in Seattle for KubeCon and Cloud Native Con. I'm John Furrier your host, Stu Miniman from Wikibon here. Next guests Anthony Lye, whose the senior vice president general manager of Cloud Data Services at NetApp, and Jonsi Stergesson, CTO and VP of Cloud Services. Great to have you guys on, great to see you again Anthony. >> As always thank you. >> So first I want to get out there we talked lots in the Kube lounge just to reset. The value parsons of NetApp have significantly been enhanced with the cloud. What is that value proposition? What have you guys seen the explosive headroom for value creation that you guys are enabling with NetApp and the cloud? >> You know what I think NetApp has done over now, probably five years, is really pushed itself to embrace the cloud. To recognize that the cloud is a very important part of everybody's IT infrastructure whether it's an extension of the existing IT infrastructure for things like DR or backup or whether it's the primary platform for legacy workloads or, as we're all here to do, to discuss the refactoring and rebuilding of applications around microservices. I think NetApp chose, unlike all of the traditional storage vendors, to see the cloud as an opportunity and I think it's helped the company and it's helped our customers to operate in what is, I think, is by default now, the end state for many companies is hybrid cloud. >> You guys also made some good moves early on with the cloud. We've documented certainly on SiliconANGLE and theCUBE early on. And then as flash comes in for performance, now you've got compute, storage and networking all being optimized in the cloud, creates app developers an environment where it's programmable infrastructure finally. I mean dev ops is happening, this is where services and notion of compute has gone from standing something up in seconds on the cloud to with functions milliseconds. This is changing the dynamic of applications but you've still got to store the data. Talk about, Jonsi, the impact of the services in piece to the developer, storage, services, provisioning, all that and it covers. >> We are taking, I mean all of our services that are running in all the hyperskills in Google and Azure and AWS and more and even on premise. Our view is our role is always to find the best home for any workload at any given time. Even though it's in public cloud or on premise. However storage has always been sort of left aside, it's always been living in this propietary chunk that is hard to move and the weight of the data is actually quite heavy. So we actually want to use Kubernetes and microservices and resistant volume claims by taking that data and making that very easily migratable replicated between locations, between hyperscalers and sort of adopt a true multi cloud strategy. With data with it not only moving those workloads or applications but the data is key, data is key. >> Sometimes, you know, you want to move the data to a compute and sometimes you want to move compute to the data. >> And that's been validated by Amazon's RDS announcement on VMware, Amazon announced outposting on premises, and the number one thing was latency, work was not yet moving. This is exactly to what you guys have been doing and implementing, today, this is like real product. >> I think the reality of the world is, you know, while there is a ton of innovation that exists in public cloud there are well documented use cases that struggle with a cloud only environment. I think NetApp has chosen to make each one of those three potential persistent stores equal to one another. So whether that's in a traditional on premise and upgrading on premise environments to get better price performance characteristics, embracing the public cloud or combining public and private cloud. >> While it's not trivial NetApp, at it's core, always was software so moving it from a hardware appliance, I mean, back in the day Network Appliance was the original name of the company to a software defined solution to being multi-cloud, you can kind of see that genesis where it can go. A lot of times the tougher part is from the customer standpoint. You know, the traditional person that bought and managed this was a storage administrator and getting them to understand cloud native applications and dev ops and all those things, those are pretty challenging moves so how much of it is education? How much of it is new buying centers inside the company or new clients, help us walk through that. >> Yeah I would make two points in maybe answering to you. So I think NetApp's history, actually 25 years ago, NetApp started off as selling into the developers who were running SUN workstations, who wanted shared everything and NetApp actually you know went around IT and put those appliances into the developers. We built a SaaN business, a very successful SaaN business, with the IT people. Now you're absolutely right, the people around here fall into the, sort of, the modern day dev ops characters. What Google calls the SREs the Site Reliability Engineers. And they're a new breed, they're young, they're doing more and more CICD. Storage is an integral part of what they do but maybe not a primary part. They expect storage to work. We are really lucky you know, a little company called Microsoft and another little company called Google sell our stuff so we get introduced into all of those cloud first, cloud only sort of use cases. Not just of refactoring of primary but building. So we're actually, in many cases now, very relevant to those people but we've been fortunate enough to leverage the big public clouds together. >> So you have a relationship with AWS, Google and Microsoft, Microsoft and Google, which you've just mentioned. You mentioned SRE, Site Reliability Engineer, this is a new persona that's clearly emerging and it has a focus around operations, now IT operations has been around for a long time, dev is changing too but this is, if they sell your stuff, their customers need to operate at scale. This is a big point, can you elaborate on the importance of this and what you guys are doing specifically to help that. >> So the Site Reliability Engineer, he is not doing operations. He is actually in charge of running the workload or the development or the application or the product that comes from development. They have to abide by specific rules that are actually set by the SRE. And to your point, because you were talking about different selling motions and not selling into the storage admin or not selling to traditional IT. This is actually what has actually been really surprising and showcases the power of Kubernetes and how widely adopted it has been, both on premise and in the public cloud because customers are actually coming to us and saying, "Hey we had no idea NetApp was actually "doing all of this in the public cloud. "We had no idea that you had your own Kubernetes services "that actually help solve one of the biggest problems "which is persistent volume claims and application of data." So it's actually coming, and you sort of see how important CNCF is, because they're actually educating the market and educating the enterprise space just as well as the new up and coming development team like I've traditionally come from. So I'm actually seeing that it's easier than I would have sort of thought in the beginning. So they're actually becoming more educated about microservices, more educated about how to run their, actually everybody almost in any company that I go into now, they have the SRE playbook somewhere in their meeting room somewhere and everybody sort of getting educated on how they need to, sort of, elevate themselves from being traditional system administrators into that SRE or dev op role. >> And it's also a cultural thing too, they have to develop, not just the playbook, but have some experience in economies of scale, managing it, and certainly it's a tail wind for you guys, storage because, again, it's also a lot of coating involved they need a pool of resources, storage being one of them. But the other thing that's interesting, those are single clouds, Amazon, Google, multi cloud is really where the action is, right? So multi cloud to me is just, to me, a modern version of multi vendor, which basically is about choice. Choice is critical, but having choice around the app, it becomes the value creator. So if you guys can scale with the app development environments that seems to be a sweet spot. How are you guys talking about that particular point because this becomes an under the covers, a new kind of operations, a new kind of scale, pushing code, not just you know stacking interacting boxes but, like, really making things, patching security things or could have been head of security things so doing things in a really really automated way. >> Yeah, I mean, I think the one thing I'm most proud of at my time at NetApp and what the team does and what the team continues to do is we took a very, very, I think, deliberate perspective that we would deliver storage, but we would do it in a very unique way. That my background was from Saas, I spent my entire career building applications, and when you build an application, you run the application, there is nothing you give the customer and say, "Here, administer it." When you look at a lot of the infrastructure services, they make the customer do a lot of work. So what we did at NetApp was we decided that we ourselves would almost create like an always available protocol that people could just ask for it and it would be there. There was no concept of setting it up or patching it or upgrading it. And that's really I think we have set a bar now on the public clouds that, I think, even the public clouds themselves have not done, and giving those developers that I asked for a storage through an API and all I need to do is ask for capacity and throughput. Nothing else, that's something to a developer they're like, "So now I don't even have to ask "anybody with storage skills. "I can tell my application to ask for it's own storage." >> It's interesting you're living in a new world where you need the scale of a system but the functionality of like an app server. I feel like we're living in that app server days where that middle ground and app development was the key focus, you've got to have both now. You need scalable systems but really application performance. >> And then you add an additional layer because now everybody wants to be able to use the same deployment script, the same configuration management system, Terraform, whatever they're actually using to deploy it on premise or in a public cloud but it needs to be done in a unified manner. This is why it's so important to be upstream compatible and there's a lot of companies out there that are actually destroying that model and not following the true cloud concept. >> Yes give them a slap on the wrist, get in line, fix it! >> If you are going to play in this space with the CNCF and with Kubenetes, you better play by the rules and do the open standards. And so you're actually compatible no matter where your workload resides. >> We've been monitoring how storage is maturing in this whole cloud native Kubenetes ecosystem here. A year ago there were a lot of backroom arguments over what were the right architectures, a few sub projects working through here, it actually blew me away in the keynote this morning to hear that 40% of all applications that are deployed in Kubernetes are stateful. So where are we? What's working? What's good for customers? And what do we still need to work on to kind of solidify the storage data piece of this? >> I think it's interesting, 'cause I think we, sort of, ourselves now consider NetApp to be a data company. Storage is an enabler but what's interesting, everyone talks about their Saas strategy, their PaaS strategy their IaaS strategies. I always ask people, "What's your data strategy?" and that's something I think the CNCF Kubernetes, themselves, recognize that they've done a lot of really great things for compute around the microservices themselves but the storage piece has always been something of a challenge. And we said, about solving that problem, we have an open source project called Trident, that essentially enables people to make persistent volume claims and if the container dies, they can essentially start a new container and pick up the storage exactly where they left off. So we really believe that stateful is an ever increasing percentage of the overall application model. Databases are important things, people need them. >> I would agree with that and that's developing too, it's early on. All right so I want to ask you guys a question, kind of outside the box. Multi cloud certainly is part of a hybrid, what they call a hybrid today, it's really a choice, multi cloud will be a future reality, no matter what anyone says, I believe that. How is multi cloud changing IT investments? Business investments, technical investments or both, what's your guys thoughts on how multi cloud is driving and changing IT investments? >> Well I actually think it offers you the opportunity to have like placement policy algorithms that fit your workload at any given time. For example, if this particular application is latency sensitive, and I created an application that all of a sudden became really popular in Mexico, then I should be able to see which one of the hyperscalers actually has a presence in Mexico City, deploy it there. If I'm under utilizing my private cloud and I have a lot of space on it and there is no specific requirements, it gives you that flexibility to, like I said, always find the best home for your workload at any given time. >> Dynamic policy based stuff? >> Yeah, precisely. And it allows you also, I mean, you can choose to do it whether its based on workload requirements or you can start doing it in a least cost effective route, I mean least cost routing. So it actually impacts both from a technical and a business sense in my opinion. >> I think you know you cannot help but get excited every day with what one cloud delivers over another cloud, and we're seeing something not unlike the arms race, you know, Google does this, then Amazon does this, then Microsoft does this. As developers we're very keen to take advantage of all these capabilities and we want to, in many cases, let the application itself make the decision. >> So yeah Amazons got there, everyone's catching up. Competitions good. All right, final question. Predictions for multi cloud in 2019. What's going to happen? Is there going to be a loud bang? Is there going to be a crash? Is it going to be fruit on the trees? What's the state of the multi cloud predictions for 2019? >> Well I actually believe it's going to become a standard. Nobody should be locked into any region or any one provider, I don't even care if it's on premise or NetOps specific, you should be able to... I mean, I think it's just going to become standard. Everybody has to have a multi cloud strategy and you can see that, like the IDC report that 86% of Fortune 500 companies are adopting multi cloud. And I think I'm actually quite fed up of this hyper cloud stuff because, in my opinion, on premise is just the fourth or the fifth hyperscaler and should be treated as such. So if you actually have that true cloud concept, you should be able to deploy that using the same script, the same APIs to deploy it everywhere. >> As I said in theCube the data center and non print, they're just an edge, a big edge. If it's an operating mall? >> My prediction? Your prediction. >> 2019 is the year of Istio. I think we've become enamored with Kubernetes, I think what Istio brings significantly advances Kubernetes, and we barely scratched the surface, I think, with the service mesh and all of the enhancements and all the contributions that will go into that. I think, you know, that 2019 will probably see as many vendors here next year with Istio credentials and STO capabilities as we see today with Kubernetes. >> Anthony, Jonsi, thanks for coming on, great insights, smart commentary, appreciate it. We should get in the studio and dig into this a little bit deeper. Really a great example of an incumbent, large company, NetApp, really getting a tailwind from the cloud, good smart bets you guys made, programmable infrastructure, dynamic policy routing, all kinds of under the covers goodness from smart cloud deployments. This is where software drives the data. >> Yep data is the new oil, that's what they say right? If you don't have a data set you're not very competitive. >> Thanks for coming on I appreciate it. More Kube coverage here, getting all the breakdown here, the impact of cloud computing at scale, the role of data software, all happening here at the CNCF. This is the KubeCon, I'm John Furrier and Stu Miniman, thanks for watching. More live coverage after this short break.