(bright music) >> Hey, welcome back everyone, theCUBE coverage here at AWS re:Mars 2022. I'm John, your host of the theCUBE. re:Mars, part of the three re big events, re:Invent is the big one, re:Inforce the security, re:MARS is the confluence of industrial space, of automation, robotics and machine learning. Got a great guest here, Muhammad Faisal senior consultant solutions architect at Capgemini. Welcome to theCUBE. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you. >> So we, you just we're hearing the classes we had with the professor from Okta ML from Washington. So he's in the weeds on machine learning. He's down getting dirty with all the hardcore, uncoupling it from hardware. Machine learning has gone really super nova in the past couple years. And this show points to the tipping point where machine learning's driving space, it's driving robotics industrial edge at unprecedented rates. So it's kind of moving from the old I don't want to say old, couple years ago and the legacy AI, I mean, old school AI is kind of the same new school with a twist it's just modernized and has faster, cheaper, smaller chips. >> Yeah. I mean, but there is a change also in the way it's working. So you had the classical AI, where you are detecting something and then you're making an action. You are perceiving something, making an action, you're detecting something, and you're assuming something that has been perceived. But now we are moving towards more deeper learning, deep. So AI, where you have to train your model to do things or to detect things and hope that it will work. And there's like, of course, a lot of research going on into explainable AI to help facilitate that. But that's where the challenges come into play. >> Well, Muhammad , first let's take, what do you do over there? Talk about your role specifically. You're doing a lot of student architecting around AI machine learning. What's your role? What's your focus. >> Yeah. So we basically are working in automotive to help OEMs and tier-one suppliers validate ADAS functions that they're working on. So advanced driving assistance systems, there are many levels that are, are when we talk about it. So it can be something simple, like, you know, a blind spot detection, just a warning function. And it goes all the way. So SAE so- >> So there's like the easy stuff and then the hard stuff. >> Muhammad : Exactly. >> Yeah. >> That's what you're getting at. >> Yeah. Yeah. And, and the easy stuff you can test validate quite easily because if you get it wrong. >> Yeah. >> The impact is not that high. The complicated stuff, if you have it wrong, then that can be very dangerous. (John laughs) >> Well, I got to say the automotive one was one was that are so fascinating because it's been so archaic and just in the past recent years, and Tesla's the poster child for this. You see that you go, oh my God, I love that car. I want to have a software driven car. And it's amazing. And I don't get a Tesla on now because that's, it's more like I should have gotten it earlier. Now I'm going to just hold my ground. >> Everyone has- >> Everyone's got it in Palo Alto. I'm not going to get another car, no way. So, but you're starting to see a lot of the other manufacturers, just in the past five years, they're leveling up. It may not be as cool and sexy as the Tesla, but it's, they're there. And so what are they dealing with when they talk about data and AI? What's the, what's some of the challenges that you're seeing that they're grappling with in terms of getting things integrated, developing pipelines, R and D, they wrangling data. Take us through some of the things. >> Muhammad: I mean, like when I think about the challenges that autonomous or the automakers are facing, I can think of three big ones. So first, is the amount of data they need to do their training. And more importantly, the validation. So we are talking about petabytes or hundred of petabytes of data that has to be analyzed, validated, annotated. So labeling to create gen, ground truth processed, reprocessed many times with every creation of a new software. So that is a lot of data, a lot of computational power. And you need to ensure that all of the processing, all of handling of the data allows you complete transparency of what is happening to the data, as well as complete traceability. So your, for home allocations, so approval process for these functions so that they can be released in cars that can be used on public roads. You need to have traceability. Like you can, you are supposed to be able to reproduce the data to validate your work that was done. So you can, >> John: Yeah >> Like, prove that your function is successful or working as expected. So this, the big data is the first challenge. I see that all the automotive makers are tackling. The second big one I see is understanding how much testing is enough. So with AI or with classical approach, you have certain requirements, how a function is supposed to work. You can test that with some test cases based on your architecture, and you have a successful or failed result. With deep learning, it gets more complicated. >> John: What are they doing with deep learning? Give an example of some of things. >> I mean, so you are, you need to then start thinking about statistics that I will test enough data with like a failure rate of potentially like 0.0, 0.1%. How much data do I need to test to make sure that I am achieving that rate. So then we are talking about, in terms of statistics, which requires a lot of data, because the failure rate that we want to have is so low. And it's not only like, failure in terms of that something is always detected, and if it's there, but it's also having like, a low false positive rate. So you are only detecting objects which are there and not like, phantom objects. >> What's some of the trends you're seeing across the client base, in terms of the patterns that they're all kind of, what, where's the state of their mindset and position with AI and some of the work they're doing, are they feeling, you feel like they're all crossed over across the chasm so to speak, in terms of executing, are they still in experimental mode in driving with the full capabilities is conservative or is it progressive? >> Muhammad: I mean, it's a mixture of both. So I'm in German automotive where I'm from, there is for functions, which are more complicated ones. There's definitely hesitancy to release them too early in the car, unless we are sure that they are safe. But of course, for functions which are assisting the drivers everyday usage they are widely available. Like one of the things like, so when we talk about this complex function. >> John: Highly available or available? >> Muhammad: I would say highly available. >> Higher? Is that higher availability and highly available. >> Okay. Yeah. (both laughing) >> Yeah, so. >> I know there's a distinction. >> Yeah. I mean >> I bring up as a joke cuz of the Jedi contract. (Muhammad laughs) >> I mean, in like, our architecture. So when we are developing our solution, high availability is one of our requirements. It is highly available, but the ADAS functions are now available in more and more cars. >> John: Well, latency, man. I mean, it's kind of a joke of storage, but it's a storage joke, but you know, it's latency, you got it, okay. (Muhammad laughs) But these are decisions that have to be made. >> Muhammad: They... >> I mean. >> Muhammad: I mean, they are still being made. >> So I mean, we are... >> John: Good. >> We haven't reached like, level five, which is the highest level of autonomous driving yet on public roads. >> John: That's hard. That's hard to do. >> Yeah. And I mean, the biggest difference, like, as you go above these levels is in terms of availability. So are they these functions? >> John: Yeah. >> Can they handle all possible scenarios or are they only available in certain scenarios? And of course the responsibility. So, it's, in the end, so with Tesla, you would be like, if you had a one you would be the person who is in control or responsible to monitor it. >> John: Yeah. But as we go >> John: Actually the reason I don't have a Tesla all my family would want one. I don't want to get anyone a Tesla. >> But I mean, but that's the sort the liabilities is currently on you, if like, you're not monitoring. >> Allright, so, talk about AWS, the relationship that Capgemini has with AWS, obviously, the partnerships there, you're here and this show is really a commitment to, this is a future to me, this is the future. >> Muhammad: Yeah. >> This is it. All right here, industrial, innovation's going to come massive. Back-office cloud, done deal. Data centers, hybrid somewhat multi-cloud, I guess. But hybrid is a steady state in the back-office cloud, game over. >> Muhammad: Yeah. >> Amazon, Azure, Google, Alibaba done. So super clouds underneath. Great. This is a digital transformation in the industrial area. >> Muhammad: Yeah. >> This is the big thing. What's your relationship with AWS >> Muhammad: So, as I mentioned, the first challenge, data, like, we have so much data, so much computational power and it's not something that is always needed. You need it like on demand. And this is where like a hyperscale or cloud provider, like AWS, can be the key to achieve, like, the higher, the acceleration that we are providing to our customers using our technology built on top of AWS services. We did a breakout session, this during re:MARS, where we demonstrated a couple of small tools that we have developed out of our offering. One of them was ability to stream data from the vehicle that is collecting data worldwide. So during the day when we did it from Vegas, driving on the strip, as well as from Germany, and while we are while this data is uploaded, it's at the same time real time anonymized to make sure it you're privacy aligned with the, the data privacy >> Of course. Yeah. That's hard to do right there. >> Yeah. And so the faces are blurred. The licenses are blurred. We also, then at the same time can run object detection. So we have real time monitoring of what our feed is doing worldwide. And... >> John: Do you, just curious, do you do that blurring? Is that part of a managed service, you call an API or is that built into the go? >> Muhammad: So from like part of our DSV, we have many different service offerings, so data production, data test strategy orchestration. So part of data production is worldwide data collection. And we can then also offer data management services, which include then anonymization data, quality check. >> John: And that's service you provide. >> Yeah. >> To the customer. Okay. Got it. Okay. >> So of course, like, in collaboration with the customer, so our like, platform is very modular. Microservices based the idea being if the customer already has a good ML model for anonymization, we can plug it into our platform, running on AWS. If they want to use it, we can develop one or we can use one of our existing ones or something off the shelf or like any other supplier can provide one as well. And we all integrate. >> So you are, you're tight with Amazon web services in terms of your cloud, your service. It's a cloud. >> Yeah. >> It's so Capgemini Super Cloud, basically. >> Exactly. >> Okay. So this we call we call it Super Cloud, we made that a thing and re:Invent Charles Fitzgerald would disagree but we will debate him. It's a Super Cloud, but okay. You got your Super Cloud. What's the coolest thing that you think you're doing right now that people should pay attention to. >> I mean, the cool thing that we are currently working on, so from the keynote today, we talked about also synthetic data for validation. >> John: Now That was phenomenal. So that was phenomenal. >> We are working on digital twin creation. So we are capturing data in real world creating a virtual identity of it. And that allows you the freedom to create multiple scenarios out of it. So that's also something where we are using machine learning to determine what are the parameters you need to change between, or so, you have one scenario, such as like, the cut-in scenario and you can change. >> John: So what scenario? >> A cut-in scenario. So someone is cutting in front of you or overtake scenario. And so, I mean, in real world, someone will do it in probably a nicer way, but of course, in, it is possible, at some point. >> Cognition to the cars. >> Yeah. >> It comes up as a vehicle. >> I mean, at some point some might, someone would be very aggressive with it. We might not record it. >> You might be able to predict too. I mean, the predictions, you could say this guy's weaving, he's a potential candidate. >> It it is possible. Yes. But I mean, but to, >> That's a future scenario. >> Ensure that we are testing these scenarios, we can translate a real world scenario into a digital world, change the parameters. So the distance between those two is different and use ML. So machine learning to change these parameters. So this is exciting. And the other thing we are... >> That is pretty cool. I will admit that's very cool. >> Yeah. Yeah. The other thing we like are trying to do is reduce the cost for the customer in the end. So we are collecting petabytes of data. Every time they make updates to the software, they have to re-simulate it or replay this data, so that they can- >> Petabytes? >> Petabytes of data. And, and physically sometimes on a physical hardware in loop device. And then this >> That's called a really heavy edge. You got to move, you don't want to be moving that around the Amazon cloud. >> Yeah. That that's, that's the challenge. And once we have replayed this or re-simulated it. we still have to calculate the KPIs out of it. And what we are trying to do is optimize this test orchestration, so that we are minimizing the REAP simulation. So you don't want the data to be going to the edge, >> Yeah. >> Unnecessarily. And once we get this data back to optimize the way we are doing the calculation, so you're not calculating- >> There's a huge data, integrity management. >> Muhammad: Yeah. >> New kind of thing going on here, it's kind of is it new or is it? >> Muhammad: I mean, it's- >> Sounds new to me. >> The scale is new, so- >> Okay, got it. >> The management of the data, having the whole traceability, that has been in automotive. So also Capgemini involved in aerospace. So in aerospace. >> Yeah. >> Having this kind of high, this validation be very strictly monitored is norm, but now we have to think about how to do it on this large scale. And that's why, like, I think that's the biggest challenge and hopefully what we are trying to, yeah, solve with our DSV offering. >> All right, Muhammad, thanks for coming on theCUBE. I really appreciate it. Great way to close out re:MARS, our last interview our the show. Thanks for coming on. Appreciate your time. >> I mean like just one last comment, like, so I think in automotive, like, so part of the automation the future is quite exciting, and I think that's where like- >> John: Yeah. >> It's, we have to be hopeful that like- >> John: Well, the show is all about hope. I mean, you had, you had space, moon habitat, you had climate change, potential solutions. You have new functionality that we've been waiting for. And, you know, I've watch every episode of Star Trek and SkyNet and kind of SkyNet going on air. >> The robots. >> Robots running cubes, robot cubes host someday. >> Yeah. >> You never know. Yeah. Thanks for coming on. Appreciate it. >> Thank you. Okay. That's theCUBE here. Wrapping up re:MARS. I'm John Furrier You're watching theCUBE, stay with us for the next event. Next time. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Okay, welcome back everyone to theCUBE's coverage here at re:MARS. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. It's the event where it's part of the "re:" series: re:MARS, re:Inforce, re:Invent. MARS stands for machine learning, automation, robotics, and space. And a lot of conversation is all about AI machine learning. This one's about AI and business transformation. We've got Stepan Pushkarev CTO, CEO, Co-Founder of Provectus. Welcome to theCUBE. And Russ Lamb, eCommerce Retail Data Engineering Lead at PepsiCo, customer story. Gentlemen, thanks for coming on theCUBE. >> Great to be here, John. >> Yeah, thanks for having us. >> I love the practical customer stories because it brings everything to life. This show is about the future, but it's got all the things we want, we love: machine learning, robotics, automation. If you're in DevOps, or you're in data engineering, this is the world of automation. So what's the relationship? You guys, you're a customer. Talk about the relationship between you guys. >> Sure, sure. Provectus as a whole is a professional services firm, premier, a AWS partner, specializing in machine learning, data, DevOps. PepsiCo is our customer, our marquee customer, lovely customer. So happy to jointly present at this re:Invent, sorry, re:MARS. Anyway, Russ... >> I made that mistake earlier, by the way, 'cause re:Invent's always on the tip of my tongue and re:MARS is just, I'm not used to it yet, but I'm getting there. Talk about what are you guys working together on? >> Well, I mean, we work with Provectus in a lot of ways. They really helped us get started within our e-commerce division with AWS, provided a lot of expertise in that regard and, you know, just hands-on experience. >> We were talking before we came on camera, you guys just had another talk and how it's all future and kind of get back to reality, Earth. >> Russ: Get back to Earth. >> If we're on earth still. We're not on Mars yet, or the moon. You know, AI's kind of got a future, but it does give a tell sign to what's coming, industrial change, full transformation, 'cause cloud does the back office. You got data centers. Now you've got cloud going to the edge with industrial spaces, the ultimate poster child of edge and automation safety. But at the end of the day, we're still in the real world. Now people got to run businesses. And I think, you know, having you here is interesting. So I have to ask you, you know, as you look at the technology, you got to see AI everywhere. And the theme here, to me, that I see is the inflection point driving all this future robotics change, that everyone's been waiting for by the way, but it's like been in movies and in novels, is the machine learning and AI as the tipping point. This is key. And now you're here integrating AI into your company. Tell us your story. >> Well, I think that every enterprise is going to need more machine learning, more, you know, AI or data science. And that's the journey that we're on right now. And we've come a long way in the past six years, particularly with our e-commerce division, it's a really data rich environment. So, you know, going from brick and mortar, you know, delivering to restaurants, vending machines and stuff, it's a whole different world when you're, people are ordering on Amazon every couple minutes, or seconds even, our products. But they, being able to track all that... >> Can you scope the problem statement and the opportunity? Because if I just kind of just, again, I'm not, you're in, it's your company, you're in the weeds, you're at the data, you're everything, But it just seems me, the world's now more integration, more different data sources. You've got suppliers, they have their different IT back ends. Some are in the cloud, some aren't in the cloud. This is, like, a hard problem when you want to bring data together. I mean, API certainly help, but can you scope the problem, and, like, what we're talking about here? >> Well, we've got so many different sources of data now, right? So we used to be relying on a couple of aggregators who would pull all this data for us and hand us an aggregated view of things. But now we're able to partner with different retailers and get detail, granular information about transactions, orders. And it's just changed the game, changed the landscape from just, like, getting a rough view, to seeing the nuts and bolts and, like, all the moving parts. >> Yeah, and you see in data engineering much more tied into like cloud scale. Then you got the data scientists, more the democratization application and enablement. So I got to ask, how did you guys connect? What was the problem statement? How did you guys, did you have smoke and fire? You came in solved the problem? Was it a growth thing? How did this, how did you guys connect as a customer with Provectus? >> Yeah, I can elaborate on that. So we were in the very beginning of that journey when there was, like, just a few people in this new startup, let's call it startup within PepsiCo. >> John: Yeah. >> Calling like a, it's not only e-commerce, it was a huge belief from the top management that it's going to bring tremendous value to the enterprise. So there was no single use case, "Hey, do this and you're going to get that." So it's a huge belief that e-commerce is the future. Some industry trends like from brand-centric to consumer-centric. So brand, product-centric. Amazon has the mission to build the most customer-centric customer company. And I believe that success, it gets a lot of enterprises are being influenced by that success. So I remember that time, PepsiCo had a huge belief. We started building just from scratch, figuring out what does the business need? What are the business use cases? We have not started with the IT. We have not started with this very complicated migrations, modernizations. >> John: So clean sheet of paper. >> Yeah. >> From scratch. >> From scratch. >> And so you got the green light. >> Yeah. >> And the leadership threw the holy water on that and said, "Hey, we'll do this."? >> That's exactly what happened. It was from the top down. The CEO kind of set aside the e-commerce vision as kind of being able to, in a rapidly evolving business place like e-commerce, it's a growing field. Not everybody's figured it out yet, but to be able to change quickly, right? The business needs to change quickly. The technology needs to change quickly. And that's what we're doing here. >> So this is interesting. A lot of companies don't have that, actually, luxury. I mean, it's still more fun because the tools are available now that all the hyper scales built on their own. I mean, back in the day, 10 years ago, they had to build it all, Facebook. You didn't know, I had people on here from Pinterest and other companies. They had to build all of that from scratch. Now cloud's here. So how did you guys do this? What was the playbook? Take us through the AI because it sounds like the AI is core, you know, belief principle of the whole entire system. What did you guys do? Take me through the journey there. >> Yeah. Beyond management decisions, strategic decisions that has been made as a separate startup, whatever- >> John: That's great. >> So some practical, tactical. So it may sound like a cliche, but it's a huge thing because I work with many enterprises and this, like, "center of excellence" that does a nice technology stuff and then looks for the budget on the different business units. It just doesn't go anywhere. It could take you forever to modernize. >> We call that the Game of Thrones environment. >> Yes. >> Yeah. Nothing ever gets done 'till it blows up at the end. >> Here, these guys, and I have to admit, I don't want to steal their thunder. I just want to emphasize it as an external person. These guys just made it so differently. >> John: Yeah. >> They even physically sat in a different office in a WeWork co-working and built that business from scratch. >> That's what Andy Jackson talked about two years ago. And if you look at some of the big successes on AWS, Capital One, all the big, Goldman Sachs. The leadership, real commitment, not like BS, like total commitment says, "Go." But enough rope to give you some room, right? >> Yeah. I think that's the thing is, there was always an IT presence, right, overseeing what we were doing within e-commerce, but we had a lot of freedoms to make design choices, technology choices, and really accelerate the business, focus on those use cases where we could make a big impact with a technology choice. >> Take me through the stages of the AI transformation. What are some of the use cases and specific tactics you guys executed on? >> Well, I think that the supply chain, which I think is a hot topic right now, but that was one use case where we're using, like, data real time, real time data to inform our sales projections and delivery logistics. But also our marketing return on investment, I feel like that was a really interesting, complex problem to solve using machine learning, Because there's so much data that we needed to process in terms of countries, territories, products, like where do you spend your limited marketing budget when you have so many choices, and, using machine learning, boil that all down to, you know, this is the optimal choice, right now. >> What were some of the challenges and how did you overcome them in the early days to get things set up, 'cause it takes a lot of energy to get it going, to get the models. What were some of the challenges and how did you overcome them? >> Well, I think some of it was expertise, right? Like having a partner like Provectus and Stepan really helped because they could guide us, Stepan could guide us, give his expertise and what he knows in terms of what he's seen to our budding and growing business. >> And what were the things that you guys saw that you contributed on? And was there anything new that you had to do together? >> Yeah, so yeah. First of all, just a very practical tip. Yes, start with the use cases. Clearly talk to the business and say, "Hey, these are the list of the use cases" and prioritize them. So not with IT, not with technology, not with the migration thing. Don't touch anything on legacy systems. Second, get data in. So you may have your legacy systems or some other third party systems that you work with. There's no AI without data. Get all the pipelines, get data. Quickly boat strap the data lake house. Put all the pipelines, all the governance in place. And yeah, literally took us three months to get up and running. And we started delivering first analytical reports. It's just to have something back to business and keep going. >> By the way, that's huge, speed. I mean, this is speed. You go back and had that baggage of IT and the old antiquated systems, you'd be dragging probably months. Right? >> It's years, years. Imagine you should migrate SAP to the cloud first. No, you don't do don't need to do that. >> Pipeline. >> Just get data. I need data. >> Stream that data. All right, where are we now? When did you guys start? I want to get just going to timeline my head 'cause I heard three months. Where are we now? You guys threw it. Now you have impact. You have, you have results. >> Yeah. I mean that for our marketing ROI engine, we've built it and it's developed within e-commerce, but we've started to spread it throughout the organization now. So it's not just about the digital and the e-commerce space. We're deploying it to, you know, regionally to other, to Europe, to Latin America, other divisions within PepsiCo. And it's just grown exponentially. >> So you have scale to it right now? >> Yeah. Well- >> How far are you in now? What, how many years, months, days? >> E-commerce, the division was created six years ago, which is, so we've had some time to develop this, our machine learning capabilities and this use case particular, but it's increasingly relevant and expansion is happening as we speak. >> What are you most proud of? You look back at the impact. What are you most proud of? >> I think the relationship we built with the people, you know, who use our technology, right. Just seeing the impact is what makes me proud. >> Can you give an example without revealing any confidential information? >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there was an example from my talk about, I was approached recently by our sales team. They were having difficulty with supply chain, monitoring our fill rate of our top brands with these retailers. And they come up to me, they have this problem. They're like, "How do we solve it?" So we work together to find a data source, just start getting that data in the hands of people who can use it within days. You know, not talking like a long time. Bring that data into our data warehouse, and then surface the data in a tool they can use, you know, within a matter of a week or two. >> I mean, the transformation is just incredible. In fact, we were talking on theCUBE earlier today around, you know, data warehouses in the cloud, data meshes of different pros and cons. And the theme that came out of that conversation was data's a product now. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And what you're kind of describing is, just gimme the product or find it. >> Russ: Right. >> And bring it in with everything else. And there's some, you know, cleaning and stuff people do if they have issues with that. But, if not, it's just bring it in, right? It's a product. >> Well, especially with the data exchanges now. AWS has a data exchange and this, I think, is the future of data and what's possible with data because you don't have to start from, okay, I've got this Excel file somebody's been working with on their desktop. This is a, someone's taken that file, put it into a warehouse or a data model, and then they can share it with you. >> John: So are you happy with these guys? >> Absolutely, yeah. >> You're actually telling the story. What was the biggest impact that they did? Was it partnering? Was it writing code, bringing development in, counseling, all the above, managed services? What? >> I think the biggest impact was the idea, you know, like being able to bring ideas to the table and not just, you know, ask us what we want, right? Like I think Provectus is a true partner and was able to share that sort of expertise with us. >> You know, Andy Jackson, whenever I interview on theCUBE, he's now in charge of all Amazon. But when he was at (inaudible). He always had to use their learnings, get the learnings out. What was the learnings you look back now and say, Hey, those were tough times. We overcome them. We stopped, we started, we iterated, we kept moving forward. What was the big learning as you look back, some of the key success points, maybe some failures that you overcome. What was the big learnings that you could share with folks out there now that are in the same situation where they're saying, "Hey, I'd rather start from scratch and do a reset." >> Yeah. So with that in particular, yes, we started this like sort of startup within the enterprise, but now we've got to integrate, right? It's been six years and e-commerce is now sharing our data with the rest of the organization. How do we do that, right? There's an enterprise solution, and we've got this scrappy or, I mean, not scrappy anymore, but we've got our own, you know, way of doing. >> Kind of boot strap. I mean, you were kind of given charter. It's a start up within a big company, I mean- >> But our data platform now is robust, and it's one of the best I've seen. But how do we now get those systems to talk? And I think Provectus has came to us with, "Here, there's this idea called data mesh, where you can, you know, have these two independent platforms, but share the data in a centralized way. >> So you guys are obviously have a data mesh in place, big part of the architecture? >> So it is in progress, but we know the next step. So we know the next step. We know the next two steps, what we're going to do, what we need to do to make it really, to have that common method, data layer. between different data products within organization, different locations, different business units. So they can start talking to each other through the data and have specific escalates on the data. And yeah. >> It's smart because I think one of the things that people, I think, I'd love to get your reaction to this is that we've been telling the story for many, many years, you have horizontally scalable cloud and vertically specialized domain solutions, you need machine learning that's smart, but you need a lot of data to help it. And that's not, a new architecture, that's a data plane, it's control plane, but now everyone goes, "Okay, let's do silos." And they forget the scale side. And then they go, "Wait a minute." You know, "I'm not going to share it." And so you have this new debate of, and I want to own my own data. So the data layer becomes an interesting conversation. >> Yeah, yes. Meta data. >> Yeah. So what, how do you guys see that? Because this becomes a super important kind of decision point architecturally. >> I mean, my take is that there has to be some, there will always be domains, right? Everyone, like there's only so much that you can find commonality across, like in industry, for example. But there will always be a data owner. And, you know, kind of like what happened with rush to APIs, how that enabled microservices within applications and being sharing in a standardized way, I think something like that has to happen in the data space. So it's not a monolithic data warehouse, it's- >> You know, the other thing I want to ask you guys both, if you don't mind commenting while I got you here, 'cause you're both experts. >> We just did a showcase on data programmability. Kind of a radical idea, but like data as code, we called it. >> Oh yeah. >> And so if data's a product and you're acting on, you've got an architecture and system set up, you got to might code it's programmable. You need you're coding with data. Data becomes like a part of the development process. What do you guys think of when you hear data as code and data being programmable? >> Yeah, it's a interesting, so yeah, first of all, I think Russ can elaborate on that, Data engineering is also software engineering. Machine learning engineering is a software. At the end of the day, it's all product. So we can use different terms and buzz words for that but this is what we have at the end of the day. So having the data, well I will use another buzz word, but in terms of the headless architecture- >> Yes. >> When you have a nice SDK, nice API, but you can manipulate with the data as your programming object to build reach applications for your users, and give it, and share not as just a table in Redshift or a bunch of CSV files in S3 bucket, but share it as a programmable thing that you can work with. >> Data as code. >> Yeah. This is- >> Infrastructure code was a revolution for DevOps, but it's not AI Ops so it's something different. It's really it's data engineering. It's programming. >> Yeah. This is the way to deliver data to your consumers. So there are different ways you can show it on a dashboard. You can show it, you can expose it as an API, or you can give it as an object, programmable interface. >> So now you're set up with a data architecture that's extensible 'cause that's the goal. You don't want to foreclose. You must think about that must keep you up at night. What's going to foreclose that benefit? 'Cause there's more coming. Right? >> Absolutely. There's always more coming. And I think that's why it's important to have that robust data platform to work from. And yeah, as Stepan mentioned, I'm a big believer in data engineering as software engineering. It's not some like it's not completely separate. You have to follow the best practices software engineers practice. And, you know, really think about maintainability and scalability. >> You know, we were riffing about how cloud had the SRE managing all those servers. One person, data engineering has a many, a one to many relationships too. You got a lot going on. It's not managing a database. It's millions of data points and data opportunity. So gentlemen, thanks for coming on theCUBE. I really appreciate it. And thanks for telling the story of Pepsi. >> Of course, >> And great conversation. Congratulations on this great customer. And thanks for >> coming on theCUBE. >> Thanks, thank you. Thanks, Russ, would you like to wrap it up with the pantry shops story? >> Oh, yeah! I think it will just be a super relevant evidence of the agility and speed and some real world applicable >> Let's go. Close us out. >> So when, when the pandemic happened and there were lockdowns everywhere, people started buying things online. And we noticed this and got a challenge from our direct to consumer team saying, "Look, we need a storefront to be able to sell to our consumers, and we've got 30 days to do it." We need to be able to work fast. And so we built not just a website, but like everything that behind it, the logistics of supply chain aspects, the data platform. And we didn't just build one. We built two. We got pantry shop.com and snacks.com, within 30 days. >> Good domains! >> The domain broker was happy on that one. Well continue the story. >> Yeah, yeah. So I feel like that the agility that's required for that kind of thing and the like the planning to be able to scale from just, you know, an idea to something that people can use every day. And, and that's, I think.- >> And you know, that's a great point too, that shows if you're in the cloud, you're doing the work you're prepared for anything. The pandemic was the true test for who was ready because it was unforeseen force majeure. It was just like here it comes and the people who were in the cloud had that set up, could move quickly. The ones that couldn't. >> Exactly. >> We know what happened. >> And I would like to echo this. So they have built not just a website, they have built the whole business line within, and launched that successfully to production. That includes sales, marketing, supply chain, e-commerce, aside within 30 days. And that's just a role model that could be used by other enterprises. >> Yeah. And it was not possible without, first of all, right culture. And second, without cloud Amazon elasticity and all the tools that we have in place. >> Well, the right architecture allows for scale. That's the whole, I mean, you did everything right at the architecture that's scale. I mean, you're scaling. >> And we empower our engineers to make those choices, right. We're not, like, super bureaucratic where every decision has to be approved by the manager or the managers manager. The engineers have the power to just make good decisions, and that's how we move fast. >> That's exactly the future right there. And this is what it's all about. Reliability, scale agility, the ability to react and have applications roll out on top of it without long timeframes. Congratulations. Thanks for being on theCUBE. Appreciate it. All right. >> Thank you. >> Okay, you're watching theCUBE here at re:MARS 2020, I'm John Furrier. Stay tuned. We've got more coverage coming after this short break. (upbeat music)

>>Okay, welcome back everyone to the cubes coverage here in Las Vegas for AWS re Mars, Remar stands for machine learning, automation, robotics, and space. Part of thehow is reinforces security. And the big show reinvent at the end of the year is the marquee event. Of course, the queues at all three and more coverage here. We've got a great guest here. Ryan re practice lead data analytics, machine learning at mission cloud. Ryan. Thanks for joining me. Absolutely >>Glad. >>So we were talking before he came on camera about mission cloud. It's not a mission as in a space mission. That's just the name of the company to help people with their mission to move to the cloud. And we're a space show to make that it's almost like plausible. I can see a mission cloud coming someday. >>Yeah, absolutely. >>You got >>The name. We got it. We're ready. >>You guys help customers get to the cloud. So you're working with all the technologies on AWS stack and people who are either lifting and shifting or cloud native born in the cloud, right? Absolutely. >>Yeah. I mean, we often see some companies talk about lift and shift, but you know, we try to get them past that because often a lift and shift means like, say you're on Oracle, you're bringing your Oracle licensing, but a lot of companies want to, you know, innovate and migrate more than they want to lift and shift. So that's really what we're seeing in market. >>You see more migration. Yeah. Less lift and shift. >>Yeah, exactly. Because they, they're trying to get out of an Oracle license. Right. They're seeing if that's super expensive and you know, you can get a much cheaper product on AWS. >>Yeah. What's the cutting up areas right now that you're seeing with cloud Amazon. Cause you know, Amazon, you know, is at their, their birthday, you know, dynamo you to sell with their 10th birthday. Where are they in your mind relative to the enterprise in terms of the services and where this goes next in terms of the on-prem you got the hybrid model. Everyone sees that, but like you got outpost. Mm. Not doing so as good as say EKS or other cool serverless stuff. >>Yeah. I mean, that's a great question. One of the things that's you see from AWS is really innovation, right? They're out there, they have over 400 microservices. So they're looking at all the different areas you have on the cloud and that people are trying to use. And they're creating these microservices that you string together, you architect them all up so that you can create what you're looking for. One of the big things we're seeing, right, is with SageMaker. A lot of people are coming in, looking for ML projects, trying to use all the hype that you see around that doing prediction, NLP and computer vision are super hot right now we've helped a lot of companies, you know, start to build out these NLP models where they're doing, you know, all kinds of stuff you use. 'em in gene research, you know, they're trying to do improvements in drugs and therapeutics. It's really awesome. And then we do some eCommerce stuff where people are just looking at, you know, how do I figure out what are similar things on similar websites, right. For, for search companies. So >>Awesome. Take me through the profile of your customer. You have the mix of business. Can you break down the, the target of the small, medium size enterprise, large all the above. >>Yeah. So mission started working with a lot of startups and SMBs and then as we've grown and become, you know, a much larger company that has all the different focus areas, we started to get into enterprise as well and help a lot of pretty well known enterprises out there that are, you know, not able to find the staff that they need and really want to get into >>The cloud. I wanted to dig into the staffing issues and also to the digital transformation journey. Okay. It okay. We all kind of know what's turning into the more dashboards, more automation, DevOps, cloud, native applications. All good. Yeah. And I can see that journey path. Now the reality is how do you get people who are gonna be capable of doing the ML, doing the DevOps dev sec ops. But what about cyber security? I mean is a ton of range of issues that you gotta be competent on to kind of survive in this multi-disciplined world, just to the old days of I'm the top of rack switch guy is over. >>Absolutely. Yeah. You know, it's a really good question. It's really hard. And that's why, you know, AWS has built out that partner ecosystem because they know companies can't hire enough people to do that. You know, if you look at just a migration into a data lake, you know, on-prem often you had one guy doing it, but if you want to go to the cloud, it's like you said, right, you need a security guy. You need to have a data architect. You need to have a cloud architect. You need to have a data engineer. So, you know, in the old days maybe you needed one guy. Now you have to have five. And so that's really why partners are valuable to customers is we're able to come in, bring those resources, get everything done quickly, and then, you know, turn >>It over. Yeah. We were talking again before we came on camera here live, you, you guys have a service led business, but the rise of MSPs managed service providers is huge. We're seeing it everywhere mainly because the cloud actually enables that you're seeing it for things like Kubernetes, serverless, certain microservices have certain domain expertise and people are making a living, providing great managed services. You guys have managed services. What's that phenomenon. Do you agree with it? And how do you, why did that come about and what, how does it keep going? Is it a trend or is it a one trick pony? >>I think it's a trend. I mean, what you have, it's the same skills gap, right? Is companies no longer want that single point of failure? You know, we have a pool model with our managed services where your team's working with a group of people. And so, you know, we have that knowledge and it's spread out. And so if you're coming in and you need help with Kubernetes, we got a Kubernetes guy in that pool to help you, right. If you need, you know, data, we got a data guy. And so it just makes it a lot easier where, Hey, I can pay the same as one guy and get a whole team of like 12 people that can be interchangeable onto my project. So, you know, I think you're gonna see managed services continue to rise and companies, you know, just working in that space. >>Do you see a new skill set coming? That's kind of got visibility right now, but not full visibility. That's going to be needed. I asked this because the environment's changing for the better obviously, but you're seeing companies that are highly valued, like data bricks, snowflake, they're getting killed on valuation. So they gotta have a hard time retaining talent. In my opinion, my opinion probably be true, but you know, you can't, you know, if you're data breach, you can't raise that 45 billion valuation try to hire senior people. They're gonna be underwater from day one. So there's gonna be a real slow down in these unicorns, these mega unicorns, deck, unicorns, whatever they're called because they gotta refactor the company, stock equity package. They attract people. So they gotta put them on a flat foot. And the next question is, do they actually have the juice, the goods to go to the new market? That's another question. So what I mean, what's your take on you're in the trenches. You're in the front lines. >>Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, and it's hard for me to think about whether they have the juice. I think snowflake and data bricks have been great for the market. They've come in. They've innovated, you know, snowflake was cloud native first. So they were built for the cloud. And what that's done is push all the hyperscalers to improve their products, right. AWS has gone through and you know, drastically over the last three years, improved Redshift. Like, I mean it's night and day from three years ago. Did, >>And you think snowflake put that pressure on them? >>Snowflake. Absolutely. Put that pressure on them. You know, I don't know whether they would've gotten to that same level if snowflake wasn't out there stealing market share. But now when you look at it, Redshift is much cheaper than snowflake. So how long are people gonna pay that tax to have snowflake versus switching over snowflakes? >>Got a nice data. Clean room, had some nice lock in features. Only on snowflake. The question is, will that last clean room? I see you smiling. Go ahead. >>Clean. Room's a concept that was actually made by Google. I know Snowflake's trying to capture it as their own, but, but Google's the one that actually launched the clean room concept because of marketing and, and all of that. >>Google also launches semantic layer, which Snowflake's trying to copy that. Does that, what does that mean to you when you hear the word semantic layer? What does that mean? >>And semantic layer just is really all about meta tags, right? How am I going through to figure out what data do I actually have in my data lake so that I can pull it for whatever I'm trying to do, whether it's dashboarding or whether it's machine learning. You're just trying to organize your data better. >>Ryan, you should be a cue post. You're like a masterclass here in, in it and cloud native. I gotta ask you since you're here, since we're having the masterclass being put in a clinic here, lot of clients are confused between how to handle the control plane and the data plane cause machine learning right now is at an all time high. You're seeing deep racer. You're seeing robotic space, all driving by machine learning. SW. He said it today, the, the companion coder, right? The, the code whisperer, that's only gonna get stronger. So machine learning needs data. It feeds on data. So everyone right now is trying to put data in silos. Okay? Cause they think, oh, compliance, you gotta create a data plane and a control plane that makes it highly available. So that can be shared >>Right >>Now. A lot of people are trying to own the data plane and some are trying to own the control plane or both. Right? What's your view on that? Because I see customers say, look, I want to own my own data cause I can control it. Control plane. I can maybe do other things. And some are saying, I don't know what to do. And they're getting forced to take both to control plane and a data plane from a vendor, right? What's your, what's your reaction to that? >>So it's pretty interesting. I actually was presenting at a tech target conference this week on exactly this concept, right, where we're seeing more and more words out there, right? It was data warehouse and it was data lake and it's lake house. And it's a data mesh and it's a data fabric. And some of the concepts you're talking about really come into that data, match data fabric space. And you know, what you're seeing is data's gonna become a product right, where you're gonna be buying a product and the silos yes. Silos exist. But what, what companies have to start doing is, and this is the whole data mesh concept is, Hey yes, you finance department. You can own your silo, but now you have to have an output product. That's a data product that every other part of your company can subscribe to that data product and use it in their algorithms or their dashboard so that they can get that 360 degree view of the customer. So it's really, you know, key that, you know, you work within your business. Some business are gonna have that silo where the data mesh works. Great. Others are gonna go. >>And what do you think about that? Because I mean, my thesis would be, Hey, more data, better machine learning. Right. Is that the concept? >>So, or that's a misconception or, >>Okay. So what's the, what's the rationale to share the data like that and data mission. >>So having more of the right data here, it is improves. Just having more data in general, doesn't improve, right? And often the problem is in the silos you're getting to is you don't have all the data you want. Right. I was doing a big project about shipping and there's PII data. When you talk about shipping, right? Person's addresses, that's owned by one department and you can't get there. Right. But how am I supposed to estimate the cost of shipping if I can't get, you know, data from where a person lives. Right. It's just >>Not. So none of the wrinkle in the equation is latency. Okay. The right data at the right time is another factor is that factored into data mesh versus these other approaches. Because I mean, you can, people are streaming data. I get that. We're seeing a lot of that. But talking about getting data fast enough before the decisions are made, is that an issue or is this just BS? >>I'm going with BS. Okay. So people talk about real time real. Time's great if you need it, but it's really expensive to do. Most people don't need real time. Right. They're really looking for, I need an hourly dashboard or I need a daily dashboard. And so pushing into real time, just gonna be an added expense that you don't >>Really need. Like cyber maybe is that not maybe need real time. >>Well, cyber security add. I mean, there's definitely certain applications that you need real time, >>But don't over invest in fantasy if you don't need an an hour's fine. Right, >>Right. Yeah. If you're, if you're a business and you're looking at your financials, do you need your financials every second? Is that gonna do anything for you? Got >>It. Yeah. Yeah. And so this comes back down to data architecture. So the next question I asked, cause I had a great country with the Fiddler AI CEO, CEO earlier, and he was at Facebook and then Pinterest, he was a data, you know, an architect and built everything. He said themselves. We were talking about all the stuff that's available now are all the platforms and tools available to essentially build the next Facebook if someone wanted to from scratch. I mean, hypothetically thought exercise. So the ability to actually ramp up and code a complete throwaway and rebuild from the ground up is possible. >>Absolutely. >>And so the question is, okay, how do you do it? How long would it take? I mean, in an ideal scenario, not, you know, make some assumptions here, you got the budget, you got the people, how long to completely roll out a brand new platform. >>Now it's funny, you asked that because about a year ago I was asked that exact same question by a customer that was in the religious space that basically wanted to build a combination of Facebook, Netflix, and Amazon altogether for the religious space, for religious goods and you know, church sermons, we estimated for him about a year and about $9 million to do it. >>I mean, that's a, that's a, a round these days. Yeah. Series a. So it's possible. Absolutely. So enterprises, what's holding them back, just dogma process, old school legacy, or are people taking the bold move to take more aggressive, swiping out old stuff and just completely rebuilding? Or is it a talent issue? What's the, what's the enterprise current mode of reset, >>You know, I think it really depends on the enterprise and their aversion to risk. Right. You know, some enterprises and companies are really out there wanting to innovate, you know, I mean there's companies, you know, an air conditioning company that we worked with, that's totally, you know, nest was eaten all their business. So they came in and created a whole T division, you know, to, to chase that business, that nest stole from them. So I think it, I think often a company's not necessarily gonna innovate until somebody comes in and starts stealing their >>Lunch. You know, Ryan, Andy, Jess, we talked about this two reinvents ago. And then Adam Eski said the same thing this year on a different vector, but kind of building on what Andy Jessey said. And it's like, you could actually take new territory down faster. You don't have to kill the old, no I'm paraphrasing. You don't have to kill the old to bring in the new, you can actually move on new ideas with a clean sheet of paper if you have that builder mindset. And I think that to me is where I'm seeing. And I'd love to get your reaction because if you see an opportunity to take advantage and take territory and you have the right budget time and people, you can get it. Oh absolutely. It's gettable. So a lot of people have this fear of, oh, we're, that's not our core competency. And, and they they're the frog and boiling water. >>You know, my answer to that is I think part of it's VCs, right? Yeah. VCs have come in and they see the value of a company often by how many people you hire, right. Hire more people. And the value is gonna go up. But often as a startup, you can't hire good people. So I'm like, well, why are you gonna go hire a bunch of random people? You should go to a firm like ours that knows AWS and can build it quickly for you, cuz then you're gonna get to the market faster versus just trying to hire a bunch of people in >>Someone. Right. I really appreciate you coming on. I'd love to have you back on the cube again, sometime your expertise and your insights are awesome. Give a commercial for the company, what you guys are doing, who you're looking for, what you want to do, hiring or whatever your goals are. Take a minute to explain what you guys are doing and give a quick plug. >>Awesome. Yeah. So mission cloud, you know, we're a premier AWS consulting firm. You know, if you're looking to go to AWS or you're in AWS and you need help and support, we have a full team, we do everything. Resell, MSP professional services. We can get you into the cloud optimize. You make everything run as fast as possible. I also have a full machine learning team. Since we're here at re Mars, we can build you models. We can get 'em into production, can make sure everything's smooth. The company's hiring. We're looking to double in size this year. So, you know, look me up on LinkedIn, wherever happy to, to take, >>You mentioned the cube, you get a 20% discount. He's like, no, I don't approve that. Thanks for coming on the key. Really appreciate it. Again. Machine learning swaping said on stage this, you can be a full time job just tracking just the open source projects. Never mind all the different tools and like platform. So I think you're gonna have a good, good tailwind for your business. Thanks for coming on the queue. Appreciate it. Ryan Reese here on the queue. I'm John furry more live coverage here at re Mars 2022. After this short break, stay with us.

>>Okay, welcome back everyone. This is the Cube's coverage of S reinve rein Mars. I said reinvent all my VES months away. Re Mars machine learning, automation, robotics, and space. I'm John feer, host of the cube, an exciting guest here, bringing on special guest more robot robots are welcome on the cube. We're gonna have that segment here. Mike Dooley co-founder and CEO of Labrador systems. Mike, welcome to the cube. Thanks. >>Coming on. Thank, thank you so much. Yeah. Labrador systems. We're a company is developing a new type of assistive robot for people in the home. And you know, our mission is really to help people live independently. And so we're about to show a robot that's it looks like my, what used to be in a warehouse or other places, but it's being designed to be both robust enough to operate in real world settings, help people that may be aging and using a Walker wheelchair. A cane could have early onset health conditions like Parkinson's and things like that. So >>Let me, let me set this up first, before you get into the, the demo, because I think here at re Mars, one of the things that's coming outta the show besides the cool vibe, right? Is that materials handling? Isn't the only thing you've seen with robotics. Yeah. You're seeing a lot more life industrial impact. And this is an example of one of that, isn't >>It? Yeah. We just actually got an award. It's a Joseph EGL Bergo was the first person to actually put robots in factories and automation. And in doing that, um, he set up grant for robots going beyond that, to help people live in it. So we're the first recipient of that. But yeah, I think that robots, they're not the, what you think about with Rosie yet. We're the wrong way from that, but they're, they can do really meaningful things. >>And before we get the demo, your mission hearing, what you're gonna show here is a lot of hard work and we know how hard it is. What's the mission. What's the vision. >>The mission is to help people live more independently on their own terms. Uh, we're, there's, it's an innate part of the human condition that at some point in our lives, it becomes more difficult to move ourselves or move things around it. And that is a huge impact on our independence. So when we're putting this robot in pilots, we're helping people try to regain degrees of independence, be more active deal with whatever situation they want, but under their terms and have, have control over their life. >>Okay, well, let's get into it. May I offer you a glass of water? Well, you >>Know, I have a robot that just happens to be really good at delivering things, including water. Um, we just actually pulled these out of our refrigerator on our last demo. So why don't we bring over the retriever? And so we're gonna command it to come on in. So this is a Labrador retriever. These robots have been in homes. This robot itself has been in homes, helping people do activities like this. It's able to sort of go from place to place it automatically navigates itself. Uh, just like we've been called a self-driving shelf, um, as an example, but it's meant to be very friendly, can come to a position like this could be by my armchair and it would automatically park. And then I could do something like I can pick up, okay, I want some water and maybe I want to drink it out of a cup and I can do this. And if I have a cough or something else, cough drops. My phone, all sorts of things can be in there. Um, so the purpose of the retriever is really to be this extra pair of hands, to keep things close by and move things. And it can automatically adjust to any hide or position. And if I, even if I block it like a safety, it, it >>Stops. And someone who say disabled or can't move is recovering or has some as aging or whatever the case is. This comes to them. It's autonomous in it sense. Is that that what works or yeah. Is it guided? How does >>It, it works on a series of bus stops. So the in robotics, we call those way points. But when we're talking to people, the bus stops are the places you want it to go. You have a bus stop by the front door, your kitchen sink, the refrigerator, your armchair, the laundry machine, you won't closet it. <laugh>. And with that simple metaphor, we, we train the robot in a couple hours. We create all these routes, just like a subway map. And then the robot is autonomous. So I can hit a button. I can hit my cell phone, or I can say Alexa ass lab, one to come to the kitchen. The robot will autonomously navigate through everything, go around the pets park itself. And it raises and lowers to bring things with and reach. So I'm sitting and it might lower itself down. So I can just comfortably get something at the kitchen. I, it could just go right to the level of the countertop. So it's very easy for someone that has an issue to move things with with limited, uh, challenges. >>And this really illustrates to this show again. Yeah. Talk about the impact here. Cause we're at a historic moment in robotics. >>We are. Yeah. >>What's your reaction to that? Tell your, share your vision >>On that. I've been in robotics for 25 years. Um, and I started, I actually started working actually at Lego and launching Lego Mindstorms, the end of the nineties. So I have like CEO just last night again, they gush over like you did that. Yeah. <laugh> and again, I'm pretty old school. And so we've my career. If I've been working through from toys onto like robotic floor cleaners, the algorithms that are on Roomba today came from the startup that we were all part of. We're, we're moving things to be bigger and bigger and have a bigger >>Impact. What's it feel like? I mean, cuz I mean I can see the experience and by the way, it's hardcore robotics communities out there, but now it's still mainstream. It's opening up the aperture of robotics. Yeah. It's the prime time is right now and it's an inflection point. >>Well, and it's also a point where we desperately need it. So we have incredible work for shortages <laugh> and it's not that we're, these robots are not to take people jobs away it's to do the work that people don't want to do and try to make, you know, free them up for things that are more important. Yeah. In senior care, that's the high touch we want caregivers to be helping people get outta their bed, help them safely move from place to place things that robots aren't at yet. Yeah. But for getting the garbage, for getting a drink or giving the person the freedom to say, do I wanna ask my caregiver or my spouse to do that? Or do I wanna do it myself? And so robots can be incredibly liberating experience if they're, if they're done in the right way and they're done well, >>It's a choice. It actually comes down to choice. I remember this argument way back when, oh, ATM's gonna kill the bank teller. In fact more bank tellers emerged. Right. And so there's choices come out there and, but there's still more advances to do. What is you, what do you see as milestones for the industry as you start to seeing better handling better voice activation cameras on board. I noticed some cameras in there. Yeah. So we're starting to see the, some of the smaller, faster, cheaper >>It's it's especially yeah. Faster. Cheaper is what we're after. So can we redo? So like the gyros that are on this type of robot used to be like in the tens of thousands of dollars 20 or 30 years ago. And, and then when you started seeing Roomba and the floor cleaners come out, those started what happened was basically the gyro on here that what's happening in consumer electronics, the ability for the iPhone to play, you know, the game in turn and, and do portrait and landscape. That actually is what enables all these robots that clean your floors to do very tight angles. What we're doing is this migration of consumer electronics then gets robbed and, and adopted over in that. So it's really about it's I, it's not that you're gonna see things radically change. It's just that you're gonna see more and more applications get more sophisticated and become more affordable. Our target is to bring this for a few hundred dollars a month into people's homes. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and make that economy work for as many people as >>Possible. Yeah. Mike, what a great, great illustration of great point there now on your history looking forward. Okay. Smaller Fest are cheaper. Yeah. You're gonna see a human aspect. So technology's kind of getting out of the way now you got a lot in the cloud, you got machine learning, big thing here. There's a human creative side now gonna be a big part of this. Yeah. Can you talk about like how you see that unfolding? Because again, younger people gonna come in, you got a lot more things pre-built I just saw a swaping on stage saying, oh, we, we write subroutines automatically the machine learning like, oh my God, that's so cool. Like, so more is coming for, to, for builders, right. To build what's the playbook gonna look like? How do you see the human aspect, creative crafting building? >>I, I it's, you know, it's a hard Fu future to predict. I think the issue is that humans are always gonna have to be more clever than the AI <laugh>, you know, I, I can't say that enough is that AI can solve some things and it can get smarter and smarter. You task that over and then let's work on the things that can't do. And I think that's intellectually challenging. Like, and I, and I think we have a long way to go, uh, to sort of keep on pushing that forward. So the whole mission is people get to do more interesting things with their life, more dynamic. Think about what the machines should be working on. Yeah. And then move on to the next things. >>Well, a lot of good healthcare implications. Yeah. Uh, senior living people who are themselves, >>All those are place. Yeah. >>Now that you have, um, this kind of almost a perfect storm of innovation coming, and I just think it's gonna be the beginning. You're gonna see a lot of young people come in. Yeah. And a lot of people in school now going down to the elementary school level yeah. Are really immersed in robotics. They're born with it. And certainly as they get older, what kind of disciplines do you see coming into robot? I used to be pretty clear. Yeah. Right. Nerdy, builder, builder. Now it's like what? I got Mac and rice. My code. >>Yeah. My, my co-founder and CEO has a good example. Anybody we interview, we say we really like it. If you think of yourself as an astronaut, going on to a space mission. And, and it's really appropriate being here at R Mars is that normally the astronaut has one specialty, but they have to know enough of the other skills to be able to help out. In case of an emergency robotics is so complex. There's so there's mechanical, there's electrical, there's software, they're perceptual, there's user interface, all of those Fs together. So when we're trying to do a demo and something goes wrong, I can't say why. I only do mechanical. Yeah. You got it. You really have to have a system. So I think if any system architects, people that if you're gonna, if, if you're gonna be, if mechanical is your thing, you better learn a little bit electrical and software. Yeah. If software is your thing, you better not just write code because you need to understand where you're >>Your back. Well, the old days you have to know for trend to run any instrumentation in the old days. So same kind of vibe. So what does that impact on the teamwork side? Because now I can imagine, okay, you got some general purpose knowledge, so math, science, all the disciplines, but the specialties there, I love that right now. Teamwork. Yeah. Because you, you know, I could be a generalism at some point. There's another component I'm gonna need to call my teammate for. >>Yeah. Yeah. And you have to have, yeah. So it, yeah, we're a small team, so it's a little bit easier right now, but even the technology. So like there's a, what, this is, this runs on Linux and that runs on Ross, which is a robotics operating system. The modules are, are the, are sorry, the modules, I mean redundant there, but the, the part that makes the robot go, okay, I'm gonna command it to go here. It's gonna go around it, see an obstacle. This module kicks in, even the elements become module. So that's part of how teams work is that, and, and Amazon has a rule around that is that everything has to have an API. Yeah. I have to be able to express my work and the way that somebody else can come in and talk to it in a very easy way. So you're also going away from like, sort of like the hidden code that only I touch you can't have ownership of that. You have to let your team understand how it works and let them control it and edit it. Well, >>Super exciting. Dan, first of all, great to bring robots on the cube set. Thanks to your team here. Doing that. Yeah. Um, talk about the company. Um, put a plug in, what are you guys doing? Sure. Raising money, getting more staff, more sales. We're give, give a commercial. >>Yeah. So we, we closed the seed round. So we've been around it's actually five years next month. Um, did pre-seed and then we closed the seed round that we announced back at CS. So we debuted the retriever for the first time we had it under wraps. We had it in people's homes for a year before we did that. Um, I, Amazon was one of our early investors and they actually co-led on this last round, along with our friends at iRobot. So yeah. Uh, so we've raised that we're right in the next phase of deploying this, especially going more into senior living now that that's opening up with COVID coming down and looking at helping these workforce issues where there's that crisis. So we'll be raising later this year. So we're starting to sort of do the preview for series a. We're starting to take those pre-orders for robots and for Lois. And then our goal is we're and we're actually already at the factory. So we've been converting this, these there's a version of this robot underway right now at the factory that will probably have engineering units at the end of this year. Yeah. Goal is for, uh, full production with all the supply chain issues for second half of, of next >>Year. Yeah. Well, congratulations. It's a great product. And I gotta ask you what's on the roadmap, how you see this product unfolding. What's the wishlist look like if you had all the dough in the world, what would you do next? What would you be putting on there? Sure. If you had the magic wand what's happening, >>It's a couple variables. I think it's scale. So it's driving the, this whole thing is designed to go down in cost, which improves basically accessibility. More people can afford it. The health system, Medicare, those sorts of folks. See it one. So basically get us into reduction and get us into volume is one part, I think the other ones is adding layers. I, what we, when we see our presentation and the speech we're doing tomorrow, we see this as a force multiplier for a lot of other things in healthcare. So if I bring the blood pressure cuff, like we have on the retrieval, I can be a physical reminder to take your medication, to take the, my, my readings, or we are just con having a conversation with some of our friends of Amazon is bringing an echo show to you when you want to have a conversation and take it away. >>When you don't think about that metaphor of how do I wanna live my life and what do I have control over? And then on top of it, the sensors on the robot, they're pretty sophisticated. So in my case, my mom is still around she's 91, but now in a hospital beded wheelchair could, we've seen her walking differently early, early on, and using things like Intel, real sense and, and computer vision and AI to detect things and just say to her, don't even tell anybody else, we're noticing this. Do you wanna share this with your doctor? Yeah. That's the world. I think that what we're trying to do is lay this out as version 1.0, so that when folks like us are around, it'll something like decades from now, life is so much more better for the options and choices we have. It's >>Really interesting. You know, I liked, um, kind of the theme here. There's a lot of day to day problems that people like to solve. And then there's like the new industrial problems that are emerging that are opportunities. And then there's the save the world kind of vibe. <laugh>, there's help people make things positive, right. You know, solve the climate problems, help people. And so we're kind of at this new era and it's beyond just like sustainability and, you know, bias. That's all gotta get done a new tipping point around the human aspect of >>Things. And you do it economically. I think sometimes you think that, okay, well, you're just doing this cuz you're, you're socially motivated and doesn't, you don't care how many you sell it to just so you can accomplish it. It's their link. The, the cheaper that we can make this, the more people you can impact. I think you're talking about the kids today is the work we did at Lego. In the end of the nineties, you made a, a robotics kit for 200 bucks and millions of kids. Yeah. Did that. And >>Grape pie. I mean, you had accessories to it. Make a developer friendly. >>Yeah, no, exactly. And we're getting all those requests. So I think that's the thing is like, get a new platform, learn what it's like to have this sort of capability and then let the market drive. It, let the people sort of the folks who are gonna be using it that are in a wheelchair, are dealing with Parkinson's or Ms, or other issues. What can we add to that ecosystem? So you it's, it's all about being very human centric in that. Yeah. And making the other parts of the economy make it work for them, make it so that the health system, they get an ROI on this so that, Hey, this is a good thing to put into people's homes. >>And well, I think you have the nice, attractive value proposition to investors. Obviously robotics is super cool and really relevant. Cool, cool. And relevant to me always is nice to have that. So check that, then you got the economics on price, pressure, prove the price down lower. Yeah. Open up the Tams of the market. Right. Make it more viable economically. >>Yeah, definitely. And then, and what we're having, what's driving us that wasn't around seven when we started this about four and a half years ago. Uh, my joke and I don't mean to offend them, but after doing pitching the vision of this in six months, don't be, >>Don't be afraid. We're do we, >>My, my joke. And I'm sort to see more bold about is that VCs don't think they're gonna get old. They're just gonna get rich. And so the idea is that they didn't see themselves in this position and we not Gloo and doom, you can work out, you can be active, but we're living older, longer. We are it's. My mom is born in the depression. She's been in a wheelchair for five years. She might be around for a good, another 10 or 15. And that's wonderful for her, but her need for care is really high. >>Yeah. And the pressure on the family too, there's always, there's always collateral damage on all these impacts. >>There's 53 million unpaid family caregivers in the us. Yeah. Just in the time that we've grown, been doing this, it's grown 4% a year and it's a complicated thing. And it's, it's not just the pressure on you to help your mom or dad or whoever. It's the frustration on their face when they have to always ask for that help. So it's, it's twofold. It's give them some freedom back so they can make a choice. Like my classic example is my mom wants tea. My dad's trying to watch the game. He, she asks for it. It's not hot enough. Sends it back. And that's a currency. Yeah, yeah. That she's losing and, and it's frustration as opposed to give her a choice to say, I'm gonna do this on my own. And I that's just, >>You wanna bring the computer out, do a FaceTime with the family, send it back. Or you mentioned the Alexa there's so many use cases. Oh >>No. We talked about, uh, we talked about putting like a, a device with a CA with a screen on it so she could chat and see pictures. And it says, I don't want to have this in my bedroom. That's my private space. Yeah. But if we could have the robot, bring it in when it's appropriate and take it on go the retriever that's that's >>The whole go fetch what I need right now. That's and then go lie down. Yeah. >>That's what I, I called >>Labrador. Doesn't lie down >>Actually. But well, it lowers down, it lowers down about 25 inches. That's about lying. >>Down's super exciting. And congratulations. I know, um, how passionate you are. It's obvious. Yeah. And being in the business so long, so many accomplishment you had. Yeah. But now is a whole new Dawn. A new era here. >>Yeah. Oh yeah. No, I, we just, it was real. It was on impromptu. It wasn't scheduled. There's a, a post circle on LinkedIn where all the robots got together. <laugh> you know, and they were seeing to hang out. No, and you're seeing stuff that wasn't possible. You look at this and you go, well, what's the big thing. It's a box on wheels. It's like, it wasn't possible to navigate something around the complexity of a home 10 years ago for the price we're doing. Yeah. It wasn't possible to wa have things that walk or spot that can go through construction sites. I, I think people don't realize it's it. It really is changing. And then we're, I think every five years you're gonna be seeing this more bold deployment of these things hitting our lives. It's >>It's super cool. And that's why this show's so popular. It's not obvious to mainstream, but you look at the confluence of all those forces coming together. Yeah. It's just a wonderful thing. Thanks for coming on. Appreciate >>It really, really appreciate you for this >>Time. Great success. Great demo. Mike, do cofounder, the CEO of Labrador systems. Check him out. They have the retriever, uh, future of robotics here. It's all impact all life on the planet. And more space. Two is to keep coverage here at re Mars, stay tuned for more live coverage. After this short break.

>>Okay, welcome back. Everyone. Live cube coverage here in Las Vegas for Amazon re Mars hot event, machine learning, automation, robotics, and space. Two days of live coverage. We're talking to all the hot technologists. We got all the action startups and segment on sustainability and F pan hero for vet global lead, Amazon sustainability data initiative. Thanks for coming on the cube. Can I get that right? Can >>You, you, you did. >>Absolutely. Okay, great. <laugh> thank >>You. >>Great to see you. We met at the analyst, um, mixer and, um, blown away by the story going on at Amazon around sustainability data initiative, because we were joking. Everything's a data problem now, cuz that's cliche. But in this case you're using data in your program and it's really kind of got a bigger picture. Take a minute to explain what your project is, scope of it on the sustainability. >>Yeah, absolutely. And thank you for the opportunity to be here. Yeah. Um, okay. So, um, I, I lead this program that we launched several years back in 2018 more specifically, and it's a tech for good program. And when I say the tech for good, what that means is that we're trying to bring our technology and our infrastructure and lend that to the world specifically to solve the problems related to sustainability. And as you said, sustainability, uh, inherently needs data. You need, we need data to understand the baseline of where we are and also to understand the progress that we are making towards our goals. Right? But one of the big challenges that the data that we need is spread everywhere. Some of it is too large for most people to be able to, um, access and analyze. And so, uh, what we're trying to tackle is really the data problem in the sustainability space. >>Um, what we do more specifically is focus on Democrat democratizing access to data. So we work with a broader community and we try to understand what are those foundational data sets that most people need to use in the space to solve problems like climate change or food security or think about sustainable development goals, right? Yeah. Yeah. Like all the broad space. Um, and, and we basically then work with the data providers, bring the data to the cloud, make it free and open to everybody in the world. Um, I don't know how deep you want me to go into it. There's many other layers into that. So >>The perspective is zooming out. You're, you're, you're looking at creating a system where the democratizing data means making it freely available so that practitioners or citizens, data, Wrangler, people interested in helping the world could get access to it and then maybe collaborate with people around the world. Is that right? >>Absolutely. So one of the advantages of using the cloud for this kind of, uh, effort is that, you know, cloud is virtually accessible from anywhere where you have, you know, internet or bandwidth, right? So, uh, when, when you put data in the cloud in a centralized place next to compute, it really, uh, removes the, the need for everybody to have their own copy. Right. And to bring it into that, the traditional way is that you bring the data next to your compute. And so we have this multiple copies of data. Some of them are on the petabyte scale. There's obviously the, the carbon footprint associated with the storage, but there's also the complexity that not everybody's able to actually analyze and have that kind of storage. So by putting it in the cloud, now anyone in the world independent of where of their computer capabilities can have access to the same type of data to solve >>The problems. You don't remember doing a report on this in 2018 or 2017. I forget what year it was, but it was around public sector where it was a movement with universities and academia, where they were doing some really deep compute where Amazon had big customers. And there was a movement towards a open commons of data, almost like a national data set like a national park kind of vibe that seems to be getting momentum. In fact, this kind of sounds like what you're doing some similar where it's open to everybody. It's kinda like open source meets data. >>Uh, exactly. And, and the truth is that these data, the majority of it's and we primarily work with what we call authoritative data providers. So think of like NASA Noah, you came me office organizations whose mission is to create the data. So they, their mandate is actually to make the data public. Right. But in practice, that's not really the case. Right. A lot of the data is stored like in servers or tapes or not accessible. Um, so yes, you bring the data to the cloud. And in this model that we use, Amazon never actually touches the data and that's very intentional so that we preserve the integrity of the data. The data provider owns the data in the cloud. We cover all the costs, but they commit to making it public in free to anybody. Um, and obviously the computer is next to it. So that's, uh, evaluated. >>Okay. Anna. So give me some examples of, um, some successes. You've had some of the challenges and opportunities you've overcome, take me through some of the activities because, um, this is really needed, right? And we gotta, sustainability is top line conversation, even here at the conference, re Mars, they're talking about saving climate change with space mm-hmm <affirmative>, which is legitimate. And they're talking about all these new things. So it's only gonna get bigger. Yeah. This data, what are some of the things you're working on right now that you can share? >>Yeah. So what, for me, honestly, the most exciting part of all of this is, is when I see the impact that's creating on customers and the community in general, uh, and those are the stories that really bring it home, the value of opening access to data. And, and I would just say, um, the program actually offers in addition to the data, um, access to free compute, which is very important as well. Right? You put the data in the cloud. It's great. But then if you wanna analyze that, there's the cost and we want to offset that. So we have a, basically an open call for proposals. Anybody can apply and we subsidize that. But so what we see by putting the data in the cloud, making it free and putting the compute accessible is that like we see a lot, for instance, startups, startups jump on it very easily because they're very nimble. They, we basically remove all the cost of investing in the acquisition and storage of the data. The data is connected directly to the source and they don't have to do anything. So they easily build their applications on top of it and workloads and turn it on and off if you know, >>So they don't have to pay for it. >>They have to pay, they basically just pay for the computes whenever they need it. Right. So all the data is covered. So that makes it very visible for, for a lot of startups. And then we see anything like from academia and nonprofits and governments working extensively on the data, what >>Are some of the coolest things you've seen come out of the woodwork in terms of, you know, things that built on top of the, the data, the builders out there are creative, all that heavy, lifting's gone, they're being creative. I'm sure there's been some surprises, um, or obvious verticals that jump healthcare jumps out at me. I'm not sure if FinTech has a lot of data in there, but it's healthcare. I can see, uh, a big air vertical, obviously, you know, um, oil and gas, probably concern. Um, >>So we see it all over the space, honestly. But for instance, one of the things that is very, uh, common for people to use this, uh, Noah data like weather data, because no, basically weather impacts almost anything we do, right? So you have this forecast of data coming into the cloud directly streamed from Noah. And, um, a lot of applications are built on top of that. Like, um, forecasting radiation, for instance, for the solar industry or helping with navigation. But I would say some of the stories I love to mention because are very impactful are when we take data to remote places that traditionally did not have access to any data. Yeah. And for instance, we collaborate with a, with a program, a nonprofit called digital earth Africa where they, this is a basically philanthropically supported program to bring earth observations to the African continents in making it available to communities and governments and things like illegal mining fighting, illegal mining are the forestation, you know, for mangroves to deep forest. Um, it's really amazing what they are doing. And, uh, they are managing >>The low cost nature of it makes it a great use case there >>Yes. Cloud. So it makes it feasible for them to actually do this work. >>Yeah. You mentioned the Noah data making me think of the sale drone. Mm-hmm <affirmative> my favorite, um, use case. Yes. Those sales drones go around many them twice on the queue at reinvent over the years. Yeah. Um, really good innovation. That vibe is here too at the show at Remar this week at the robotics showcases you have startups and growing companies in the ML AI areas. And you have that convergence of not obvious to many, but here, this culture is like, Hey, we have, it's all coming together. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, you know, physical, industrial space is a function of the new O T landscape. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. I mean, there's no edge in space as they say, right. So the it's unlimited edge. So this kind of points to the major trend. It's not stopping this innovation, but sustainability has limits on earth. We have issues. >>We do have issues. And, uh, and I, I think that's one of my hopes is that when we come to the table with the resources and the skills we have and others do as well, we try to remove some of these big barriers, um, that make it things harder for us to move forward as fast as we need to. Right. We don't have time to spend that. Uh, you know, I've been accounted that 80% of the effort to generate new knowledge is spent on finding the data you need and cleaning it. Uh, we, we don't have time for that. Right. So can we remove that UN differentiated, heavy lifting and allow people to start at a different place and generate knowledge and insights faster. >>So that's key, that's the key point having them innovate on top of it, right. What are some things that you wanna see happen over the next year or two, as you look out, um, hopes, dreams, KPIs, performance metrics, what are you, what are you driving to? What's your north star? What are some of those milestones? >>Yeah, so some, we are investing heavily in some areas. Uh, we support, um, you know, we support broadly sustainability, which as, you know, it's like, it's all over, <laugh> the space, but, uh, there's an area that is, uh, becoming more and more critical, which is climate risk. Um, climate risk, you know, for obvious reasons we are experienced, but also there's more regulatory pressures on, uh, business and companies in general to disclose their risks, not only the physical, but also to transition risks. And that's a very, uh, data heavy and compute heavy space. Right. And so we are very focusing in trying to bring the right data and the right services to support that kind of, of activity. >>What kind of break was you looking for? >>Um, so I think, again, it goes back to this concept that there's all that effort that needs to be done equally by so many people that we are all repeating the effort. So I'll put a plug here actually for a project we are supporting, which is called OS climates. Um, I don't know if you're familiar with it, but it's the Linux foundation effort to create an open source platform for climate risk. And so they, they bought the SMP global Airbus, you know, Alliance all these big companies together. And we are one of the funding partners to basically do that basic line work. What are the data that is needed? What are the basic tools let's put it there and do the pre-competitive work. So then you can do the build the, the, the competitive part on top of it. So >>It's kinda like a data clean room. >>It kind of is right. But we need to do those things, right. So >>Are they worried about comp competitive data or is it more anonymized out? How do you, >>It has both actually. So we are primarily contributing, contributing with the open data part, but there's a lot of proprietary data that needs to be behind the whole, the walls. So, yeah, >>You're on the cutting edge of data engineering because, you know, web and ad tech technologies used to be where all that data sharing was done. Mm-hmm <affirmative> for the commercial reasons, you know, the best minds in our industry quoted by a cube alumni are working on how to place ads better. Yeah. Jeff Acker, founder of Cloudera said that on the cube. Okay. And he was like embarrassed, but the best minds are working on how to make ads get more efficient. Right. But that tech is coming to problem solving and you're dealing with data exchange data analysis from different sources, third parties. This is a hard problem. >>Well, it is a hard problem. And I'll, I'll my perspective is that the hardest problem with sustainability is that it goes across all kinds of domains. Right. We traditionally been very comfortable working in our little, you know, swimming lanes yeah. Where we don't need to deal with interoperability and, uh, extracting knowledge. But sustainability, you, you know, you touch the economic side, it touches this social or the environmental, it's all connected. Right. And you cannot just work in the little space and then go sets the impact in the other one. So it's going to force us to work in a different way. Right. It's, uh, big data complex data yeah. From different domains. And we need to somehow make sense of all of it. And there's the potential of AI and ML and things like that that can really help us right. To go beyond the, the modeling approaches we've been done so >>Far. And trust is a huge factor in all this trust. >>Absolutely. And, and just going back to what I said before, that's one of the main reasons why, when we bring data to the cloud, we don't touch it. We wanna make sure that anybody can trust that the data is nowhere data or NASA data, but not Amazon data. >>Yes. Like we always say in the cube, you should own your data plane. Don't give it up. <laugh> well, that's cool. Great. Great. To hear the update. Is there any other projects that you're working on you think might be cool for people that are watching that you wanna plug or point out because this is an area people are, are leaning into yeah. And learning more young, younger talents coming in. Um, I, whether it's university students to people on side hustles want to play with data, >>So we have plenty of data. So we have, uh, we have over a hundred data sets, uh, petabytes and petabytes of data all free. You don't even need an AWS account to access the data and take it out if you want to. Uh, but I, I would say a few things that are exciting that are happening at Mars. One is that we are actually got integrated into ADX. So the AWS that exchange and what that means is that now you can find the open data, free data from a STI in the same searching capability and service as the paid data, right. License data. So hopefully we'll make it easier if I, if you wanna play with data, we have actually something great. We just announced a hackathon this week, uh, in partnership with UNESCO, uh, focus on sustainable development goals, uh, a hundred K in prices and, uh, so much data <laugh> you >>Too years, they get the world is your oyster to go check that out at URL at website, I'll see it's on Amazon. It use our website or a project that can join, or how do people get in touch with you? >>Yeah. So, uh, Amazon SDI, like for Amazon sustainability, that initiative, so Amazon sdi.com and you'll find, um, all the data, a lot of examples of customer stories that are using the data for impactful solutions, um, and much more >>So, and these are, there's a, there's a, a new kind of hustle going out there, seeing entrepreneurs do this. And very successfully, they pick a narrow domain and they, they own it. Something really obscure that could be off the big player's reservation. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and they just become fluent in the data. And it's a big white space for them, right. This market opportunities. And at the minimum you're playing with data. So this is becoming kind of like a long tail domain expertise, data opportunity. Yeah, absolutely. This really hot. So yes. Yeah. Go play around with the data, check it outs for good cause too. And it's free. >>It's all free. >>Almost free. It's not always free. Is it >>Always free? Well, if you, a friend of mine said is only free if your time is worth nothing. <laugh>. Yeah, >>Exactly. Well, Anna, great to have you on the cube. Thanks for sharing the stories. Sustainability is super important. Thanks for coming on. Thank you for the opportunity. Okay. Cube coverage here in Las Vegas. I'm Sean. Furier, we've be back with more day one. After this short break.

(upbeat music) >> Welcome back. Day two of theCUBE's coverage of re:MARS in Las Vegas. Amazon re:MARS, it's part of the Re Series they call it at Amazon. re:Invent is their big show, re:Inforce is a security show, re:MARS is the new emerging machine learning automation, robotics, and space. The confluence of machine learning powering a new industrial age and inflection point. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. We're here to break it down for another wall to wall coverage. We've got a great guest here, CUBE alumni from our AWS startup showcase, Krishna Gade, founder and CEO of fiddler.ai. Welcome back to theCUBE. Good to see you. >> Great to see you, John. >> In person. We did the remote one before. >> Absolutely, great to be here, and I always love to be part of these interviews and love to talk more about what we're doing. >> Well, you guys have a lot of good street cred, a lot of good word of mouth around the quality of your product, the work you're doing. I know a lot of folks that I admire and trust in the AI machine learning area say great things about you. A lot going on, you guys are growing companies. So you're kind of like a startup on a rocket ship, getting ready to go, pun intended here at the space event. What's going on with you guys? You're here. Machine learning is the centerpiece of it. Swami gave the keynote here at day two and it really is an inflection point. Machine learning is now ready, it's scaling, and some of the examples that they were showing with the workloads and the data sets that they're tapping into, you know, you've got CodeWhisperer, which they announced, you've got trust and bias now being addressed, we're hitting a level, a new level in ML, ML operations, ML modeling, ML workloads for developers. >> Yep, yep, absolutely. You know, I think machine learning now has become an operational software, right? Like you know a lot of companies are investing millions and billions of dollars and creating teams to operationalize machine learning based products. And that's the exciting part. I think the thing that that is very exciting for us is like we are helping those teams to observe how those machine learning applications are working so that they can build trust into it. Because I believe as Swami was alluding to this today, without actually building trust into AI, it's really hard to actually have your business users use it in their business workflows. And that's where we are excited about bringing their trust and visibility factor into machine learning. >> You know, a lot of us all know what you guys are doing here in the ecosystem of AWS. And now extending here, take a minute to explain what Fiddler is doing for the folks that are in the space, that are in discovery mode, trying to understand who's got what, because like Swami said on stage, it's a full-time job to keep up on all the machine learning activities and tool sets and platforms. Take a minute to explain what Fiddler's doing, then we can get into some, some good questions. >> Absolutely. As the enterprise is taking on operationalization of machine learning models, one of the key problems that they run into is lack of visibility into how those models perform. You know, for example, let's say if I'm a bank, I'm trying to introduce credit risk scoring models using machine learning. You know, how do I know when my model is rejecting someone's loan? You know, when my model is accepting someone's loan? And why is it doing it? And I think this is basically what makes machine learning a complex thing to implement and operationalize. Without this visibility, you cannot build trust and actually use it in your business. With Fiddler, what we provide is we actually open up this black box and we help our customers to really understand how those models work. You know, for example, how is my model doing? Is it accurately working or not? You know, why is it actually rejecting someone's loan application? We provide these both fine grain as well as coarse grain insights. So our customers can actually deploy machine learning in a safe and trustworthy manner. >> Who is your customer? Who you're targeting? What persona is it, the data engineer, is it data science, is it the CSO, is it all the above? >> Yeah, our customer is the data scientist and the machine learning engineer, right? And we usually talk to teams that have a few models running in production, that's basically our sweet spot, where they're trying to look for a single pane of glass to see like what models are running in their production, how they're performing, how they're affecting their business metrics. So we typically engage with like head of data science or head of machine learning that has a few machine learning engineers and data scientists. >> Okay, so those people that are watching, you're into this, you can go check it out. It's good to learn. I want to get your thoughts on some trends that I see emerging, and I want to get your reaction to those. Number one, we're seeing the cloud scale now and integration a big part of things. So the time to value was brought up on stage today, Swami kind of mentioned time to value, showed some benchmark where they got four hours, some other teams were doing eight weeks. Where are we on the progression of value, time to value, and on the scale side. Can you scope that for me? >> I mean, it depends, right? You know, depending upon the company. So for example, when we work with banks, for them to time to operationalize a model can take months actually, because of all the regulatory procedures that they have to go through. You know, they have to get the models reviewed by model validators, model risk management teams, and then they audit those models, they have to then ship those models and constantly monitor them. So it's a very long process for them. And even for non-regulated sectors, if you do not have the right tools and processes in place, operationalizing machine learning models can take a long time. You know, with tools like Fiddler, what we are enabling is we are basically compressing that life cycle. We are helping them automate like model monitoring and explainability so that they can actually ship models more faster. Like you get like velocity in terms of shipping models. For example, one of the growing fintech companies that started with us last year started with six models in production, now they're running about 36 models in production. So it's within a year, they were able to like grow like 10x. So that is basically what we are trying to do. >> At other things, we at re:MARS, so first of all, you got a great product and a lot of markets that grow onto, but here you got space. I mean, anyone who's coming out of college or university PhD program, and if they're into aero, they're going to be here, right? This is where they are. Now you have a new core companies with machine learning, not just the engineering that you see in the space or aerospace area, you have a new engineering. Now I go back to the old days where my parents, there was Fortran, you used Fortran was Lingua Franca to manage the equipment. Little throwback to the old school. But now machine learning is companion, first class citizen, to the hardware. And in fact, and some will say more important. >> Yep, I mean, machine learning model is the new software artifact. It is going into production in a big way. And I think it has two different things that compare to traditional software. Number one, unlike traditional software, it's a black box. You cannot read up a machine learning model score and see why it's making those predictions. Number two, it's a stochastic entity. What that means is it's predictive power can wane over time. So it needs to be constantly monitored and then constantly refreshed so that it's actually working in tech. So those are the two main things you need to take care. And if you can do that, then machine learning can give you a huge amount of ROI. >> There is some practitioner kind of like craft to it. >> Correct. >> As you said, you got to know when to refresh, what data sets to bring in, which to stay away from, certainly when you get to the bias, but I'll get to that in a second. My next question is really along the lines of software. So if you believe that open source will dominate the software business, which I do, I mean, most people won't argue. I think you would agree with that, right? Open source is driving everything. If everything's open source, where's the differentiation coming from? So if I'm a startup entrepreneur or I'm a project manager working on the next Artemis mission, I got to open source. Okay, there's definitely security issues here. I don't want to talk about shift left right now, but like, okay, open source is everything. Where's the differentiation, where do I have the proprietary edge? >> It's a great question, right? So I used to work in tech companies before Fiddler. You know, when I used to work at Facebook, we would build everything in house. We would not even use a lot of open source software. So there are companies like that that build everything in house. And then I also worked at companies like Twitter and Pinterest, which are actually used a lot of open source, right? So now, like the thing is, it depends on the maturity of the organization. So if you're a Facebook or a Google, you can build a lot of things in house. Then if you're like a modern tech company, you would probably leverage open source, but there are lots of other companies in the world that still don't have the talent pool to actually build, take things from open source and productionize it. And that's where the opportunity for startups comes in so that we can commercialize these things, create a great enterprise experience, so actually operationalize things for them so that they don't have to do it in house for them. And that's the advantage working with startups. >> I don't want to get all operating systems with you on theory here on the stage here, but I will have to ask you the next question, which I totally agree with you, by the way, that's the way to go. There's not a lot of people out there that are peaked. And that's just statistical and it'll get better. Data engineering is really narrow. That is like the SRE of data. That's a new role emerging. Okay, all the things are happening. So if open source is there, integration is a huge deal. And you start to see the rise of a lot of MSPs, managed service providers. I run Kubernetes clusters, I do this, that, and the other thing. So what's your reaction to the growth of the integration side of the business and this role of new services coming from third parties? >> Yeah, absolutely. I think one of the big challenges for a chief data officer or someone like a CTO is how do they devise this infrastructure architecture and with components, either homegrown components or open source components or some vendor components, and how do they integrate? You know, when I used to run data engineering at Pinterest, we had to devise a data architecture combining all of these things and create something that actually flows very nicely, right? >> If you didn't do it right, it would break. >> Absolutely. And this is why it's important for us, like at Fiddler, to really make sure that Fiddler can integrate to all varies of ML platforms. Today, a lot of our customers use machine learning, build machine learning models on SageMaker. So Fiddler nicely integrate with SageMaker so that data, they get a seamless experience to monitor their models. >> Yeah, I mean, this might not be the right words for it, but I think data engineering as a service is really what I see you guys doing, as well other things, you're providing all that. >> And ML engineering as a service. >> ML engineering as a- Well it's hard. I mean, it's like the hard stuff. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Hear, hear. But that has to enable. So you as a business entrepreneur, you have to create a multiple of value proposition to your customers. What's your vision on that? What is that value? It has to be a multiple, at least 5 to 10. >> I mean, the value is simple, right? You know, if you have to operationize machine learning, you need visibility into how these things work. You know, if you're CTO or like chief data officer is asking how is my model working and how is it affecting my business? You need to be able to show them a dashboard, how it's working, right? And so like a data scientist today struggles to do this. They have to manually generate a report, manually do this analysis. What Fiddler is doing them is basically reducing their work so that they can automate these things and they can still focus on the core aspect of model building and data preparation and this boring aspect of monitoring the model and creating reports around the models is automated for them. >> Yeah, you guys got a great business. I think it's a lot of great future there and it's only going to get bigger. Again, the TAM's going to expand as the growth rising tide comes in. I want to ask you on while we're on that topic of rising tides, Dave Malik and I, since re:Invent last year have been kind of kicked down around this term that we made up called supercloud. And supercloud was a word that came out of these clouds that were not Amazon hyperscalers. So Snowflake, Buildman Sachs, Capital One, you name it, they're building massive proprietary value on top of the CapEx of Amazon. Jerry Chen at Greylock calls it castles in the cloud. You can create these moats. >> Yeah, right. >> So this is a phenomenon, right? And you land on one, and then you go to the others. So the strategies, everyone goes to Amazon first, and then hits Azure and GCP. That then creates this kind of multicloud so, okay, so super cloud's kind of happening, it's a thing. Charles Fitzgerald will disagree, he's a platformer, he says he's against the term. I get why, but he's off base a little. We can't wait to debate him on that. So superclouds are happening, but now what do I do about multicloud, because now I understand multicloud, I have this on that cloud, integrating across clouds is a very difficult thing. >> Krishna: Right, right, right. >> If I'm Snowflake or whatever, hey, I'll go to Azure, more TAM expansion, more market. But are people actually working together? Are we there yet? Where it's like, okay, I'm going to re-operationalize this code base over here. >> I mean, the reality of it, enterprise wants optionality, right? I think they don't want to be locked in into one particular cloud vendor on one particular software. And therefore you actually have in a situation where you have a multicloud scenario where they want to have some workloads in Amazon, some workloads in Azure. And this is an opportunity for startups like us because we are cloud agnostic. We can monitor models wherever you have. So this is where a lot of our customers, they have some of their models are running in their data centers and some of their models running in Amazon. And so we can provide a universal single pan of glass, right? So we can basically connect all of those data and actually showcase. I think this is an opportunity for startups to combine the data streams come from various different clouds and give them a single pain of experience. That way, the sort of the where is your data, where are my models running, which cloud are there, is all abstracted out from the customer. Because at the end of the day, enterprises will want optionality. And we are in this multicloud. >> Yeah, I mean, this reminds me of the interoperability days back when I was growing into the business. Everything was interoperability and OSI and the standards came out, but what's your opinion on openness, okay? There's a kneejerk reaction right now in the market to go silo on your data for governance or whatever reasons, but yet machine learning gurus and experts will say, "Hey, you want to horizon horizontal scalability and have the best machine learning models, you've got to have access to data and fast in real time or near real time." And the antithesis is siloing. >> Krishna: Right, right, right. >> So what's the solution? Customers control the data plane and have a control plane that's... What do customers do? It's a big challenge. >> Yeah, absolutely. I think there are multiple different architectures of ML, right, you know? We've seen like where vendors like us used to deploy completely on-prem, right? And they still do it, we still do it in some customers. And then you had this managed cloud experience where you just abstract out the entire operations from the customer. And then now you have this hybrid experience where you split the control plane and data plane. So you preserve the privacy of the customer from the data perspective, but you still control the infrastructure, right? I don't think there's a right answer. It depends on the product that you're trying to solve. You know, Databricks is able to solve this control plane, data plane split really well. I've seen some other tools that have not done this really well. So I think it all depends upon- >> What about Snowflake? I think they a- >> Sorry, correct. They have a managed cloud service, right? So predominantly that's their business. So I think it all depends on what is your go to market? You know, which customers you're talking to? You know, what's your product architecture look like? You know, from Fiddler's perspective today, we actually have chosen, we either go completely on-prem or we basically provide a managed cloud service and that's actually simpler for us instead of splitting- >> John: So it's customer choice. >> Exactly. >> That's your position. >> Exactly. >> Whoever you want to use Fiddler, go on-prem, no problem, or cloud. >> Correct, or cloud, yeah. >> You'll deploy and you'll work across whatever observability space you want to. >> That's right, that's right. >> Okay, yeah. So that's the big challenge, all right. What's the big observation from your standpoint? You've been on the hyperscaler side, your journey, Facebook, Pinterest, so back then you built everything, because no one else had software for you, but now everybody wants to be a hyperscaler, but there's a huge CapEx advantage. What should someone do? If you're a big enterprise, obviously I could be a big insurance, I could be financial services, oil and gas, whatever vertical, I want a supercloud, what do I do? >> I think like the biggest advantage enterprise today have is they have a plethora of tools. You know, when I used to work on machine learning way back in Microsoft on Bing Search, we had to build everything. You know, from like training platforms, deployment platforms, experimentation platforms. You know, how do we monitor those models? You know, everything has to be homegrown, right? A lot of open source also did not exist at the time. Today, the enterprise has this advantage, they're sitting on this gold mine of tools. You know, obviously there's probably a little bit of tool fatigue as well. You know, which tools to select? >> There's plenty of tools available. >> Exactly, right? And then there's like services available for you. So now you need to make like smarter choices to cobble together this, to create like a workflow for your engineers. And you can really get started quite fast, and actually get on par with some of these modern tech companies. And that is the advantage that a lot of enterprises see. >> If you were going to be the CTO or CEO of a big transformation, knowing what you know, 'cause you just brought up the killer point about why it's such a great time right now, you got platform as a service and the tooling essentially reset everything. So if you're going to throw everything out and start fresh, you're basically brewing the system architecture. It's a complete reset. That's doable. How fast do you think you could do that for say a large enterprise? >> See, I think if you set aside the organization processes and whatever kind of comes in the friction, from a technology perspective, it's pretty fast, right? You can devise a data architecture today with like tools like Kafka, Snowflake and Redshift, and you can actually devise a data architecture very clearly right from day one and actually implement it at scale. And then once you have accumulated enough data and you can extract more value from it, you can go and implement your MLOps workflow as well on top of it. And I think this is where tools like Fiddler can help as well. So I would start with looking at data, do we have centralization of data? Do we have like governance around data? Do we have analytics around data? And then kind of get into machine learning operations. >> Krishna, always great to have you on theCUBE. You're great masterclass guest. Obviously great success in your company. Been there, done that, and doing it again. I got to ask you, since you just brought that up about the whole reset, what is the superhero persona right now? Because it used to be the full stack developer, you know? And then it's like, then I call them, it didn't go over very well in theCUBE, the half stack developer, because nobody wants to be a half stack anything, a half sounds bad, worse than full. But cloud is essentially half a stack. I mean, you got infrastructure, you got tools. Now you're talking about a persona that's going to reset, look at tools, make selections, build an architecture, build an operating environment, distributed computing operating. Who is that person? What's that persona look like? >> I mean, I think the superhero persona today is ML engineering. I'm usually surprised how much is put on an ML engineer to do actually these days. You know, when I entered the industry as a software engineer, I had three or four things in my job to do, I write code, I test it, I deploy it, I'm done. Like today as an ML engineer, I need to worry about my data. How do I collect it? I need to clean the data, I need to train my models, I need to experiment with what it is, and to deploy them, I need to make sure that they're working once they're deployed. >> Now you got to do all the DevOps behind it. >> And all the DevOps behind it. And so I'm like working halftime as a data scientist, halftime as a software engineer, halftime as like a DevOps cloud. >> Cloud architect. >> It's like a heroic job. And I think this is why this is why obviously these jobs are like now really hard jobs and people want to be more and more machine learning >> And they get paid. >> engineering. >> Commensurate with the- >> And they're paid commensurately as well. And this is where I think an opportunity for tools like Fiddler exists as well because we can help those ML engineers do their jobs better. >> Thanks for coming on theCUBE. Great to see you. We're here at re:MARS. And great to see you again. And congratulations on being on the AWS startup showcase that we're in year two, episode four, coming up. We'll have to have you back on. Krishna, great to see you. Thanks for coming on. Okay, This is theCUBE's coverage here at re:MARS. I'm John Furrier, bringing all the signal from all the noise here. Not a lot of noise at this event, it's very small, very intimate, a little bit different, but all on point with space, machine learning, robotics, the future of industrial. We'll back with more coverage after the short break. >> Man: Thank you John. (upbeat music)

>>Okay, welcome back everyone. This is the Cube's coverage here in Las Vegas. Back at events re Mars, Amazon re Mars. I'm your host, John fur with the cube. Mars stands for machine learning, automation, robotics, and space. It's great event brings together a lot of the industrial space machine learning and all the new changes in scaling up from going on the moon to, you know, doing great machine learning. And we've got two great guests here with kinda called lunar outpost, Justin Sears, CEO, Lauren, man. He's the co-founder and chief strategy officer lunar outpost. They're right next to us, watching their booth. Love the name, gentlemen. Welcome to the cube. >>Yeah. Thanks for having us, John. >>All right. So lunar outpost, I get the clues here. Tell us what you guys do. Start with that. >>Absolutely. So lunar outpost, we're a company based outta Colorado that has two missions headed to the moon over the course of the next 24 months. We're currently operating on Mars, which forest will tell you a little bit more about here in a second. And we're really pushing out towards expanding the infrastructure on the lunar surface. And then we're gonna utilize that to provide sustainable access to other planetary bodies. >>All right, far as teeing it up for you. Go, how cool is this? We don't, we wanna use every minute. What's the lunar surface look like? What's the infrastructure roads. You gonna pave it down. You what's going on. Well, >>Where we're going. No one has ever been. So, um, our first mission is going to Shackleton connecting Ridge on the south pole, the moon, and that's ripe to add infrastructure such as landing pads and other things. But our first Rover will be primarily driving across the surface, uh, exploring, uh, what the material looks like, prospecting for resources and testing new technologies. >>And you have a lot of technology involved. You're getting data in, you're just doing surveillance. What's the tech involved there. >>Yeah. So the primary technology that we're demonstrating is a 4g network for NOK. Um, we're providing them mobility services, which is basically like the old Verizon commercial. Can you hear me now? Uh, where the Rover drives farther and farther away from the Lander to test their signal strength, and then we're gonna have some other payloads ride sharing along with us for the ride >>Reminds me the old days of wifi. We used to call it war drive and you go around and try to find someone's wifi hotspot <laugh> inside the thing, but no, this is kind of cool. It brings up the whole thing. Now on lunar outpost, how big is the company? What's how what's to some of the stats heres some of the stats. >>Absolutely. So lunar outpost, 58 people, uh, growing quite quickly on track to double. So any of you watching, you want a job, please apply <laugh>. But with lunar outpost, uh, very similar to how launch companies provide people access to different parts of space. Lunar outpost provides people access to different spots on planetary bodies, whether it's the moon, Mars or beyond. So that's really where we're starting. >>So it's kinda like a managed service for all kinds of space utilities. If you kind of think about it, you're gonna provide services. Yeah, >>Absolutely. Yeah. It, it's definitely starting there and, and we're pushing towards building that infrastructure and that long term vision of utilizing space resources. But I can talk about that a little bit more here in a sec. >>Let's get into that. Let's talk about Mars first. You guys said what's going on with >>Mars. Absolutely. >>Yeah. So right now, uh, lunar outpost is part of the science team for, uh, Moxi, which is an instrument on the perseverance Rover. Yeah. Moxi is the first demonstration of space resource utilization on another planet. And what space resource utilization is basically taking resources on another planet, turning them into something useful. What Moxi does is it takes the CO2 from the atmosphere of Mars and atmosphere of Mars is mostly CO2 and it uses a process called solid oxide electrolysis to basically strip oxygen off of that CO2 to produce oh two and carbon monoxide. >>So it's what you need to self sustain on the surface. >>Exactly. It's not just sustaining, um, the astronauts, but also for producing oxygen for propellant. So it'll actually produce, um, it's a, it's a technology that'll produce a propellant for return rockets, um, to come back for Mars. So >>This is the real wildcard and all this, this, this exploration is how fast can the discoveries invent the new science to provide the life and the habitat on the surface. And that seems to be the real focus in the, in the conversations I heard on the keynote as well, get the infrastructure up so you can kinda land and, and we'll pull back and forth. Um, where are we on progress? You guys have the peg from one zero to 10, 10 being we're going, my grandmother's going, everyone's going to zero. Nothing's moving. >>We're making pretty rapid >>Progress. A three six, >>You know, I'll, I'll put it on an eight, John an >>Eight, I'll put it on >>Eight. This is why the mission force was just talking about that's launching within the next 12 months. This is no longer 10 years out. This is no longer 20 years away, 12 months. And then we have mission two shortly after, and that's just the beginning. We have over a dozen Landers that are headed to line surface this decade alone and heavy lift Landers and launchers, uh, start going to the moon and coming back by 2025. >>So, and you guys are from Colorado. You mentioned before you came on camera, right with the swap offices. So you got some space in Colorado, then the rovers to move around. You get, you get weird looks when people drive by and see the space gear. >>Oh yeah, definitely. So we have, um, you know, we have our facility in golden and our Nevada Colorado, and we'll take the vehicles out for strolls and you'll see construction workers, building stuff, and looking over and saying, what's >>Good place to work too. So you're, you're hiring great. You're doubling on the business model side. I can see a lot of demand. It's cheaper to launch stuff now in space. Is there becoming any rules of engagement relative to space? I don't wanna say verified, but like, you know, yet somehow get to the point where, I mean, I could launch a satellite, I could launch something for a couple hundred grand that might interfere with something legitimate. Do you see that on the radar because you guys are having ease of use so smaller, faster, cheaper to get out there. Now you gotta refine the infrastructure, get the services going. Is there threats from just random launches? >>It's a, it's a really interesting question. I mean, current state of the art people who have put rovers on other planetary bodies, you're talking like $3 billion, uh, for the March perseverance Rover. So historically there hasn't been that threat, but when you start talking about lowering the cost and the access to some of these different locations, I do think we'll get to the point where there might be folks that interfere with large scale operations. And that's something that's not very well defined in international law and something you won't really probably get any of the major space powers to agree to. So it's gonna be up to commercial companies to operate responsibly so we can make that space sustainable. And if there is a bad actor, I think it they'll weed themselves out over time. >>Yeah. It's gonna be of self govern, I think in the short term. Good point. Yeah. What about the technology? Where are we in the technology? What are some of the big, uh, challenges that we're overcoming now and what's that next 20 M stare in terms of the next milestone? Yeah, a tech perspective. >>Yeah. So the big technology technological hurdle that has been identified by many is the ability to survive the LUN night. Um, it gets exceptionally cold, uh, when the sun on the moon and that happens every 14 days for another, for, you know, for 14 days. So these long, cold lunar nights, uh, can destroy circuit boards and batteries and different components. So lunar outpost has invested in developing thermal technologies to overcome this, um, both in our offices, in the United States, but we also have opened a new office in, uh, Luxembourg in Europe. That's focusing specifically on thermal technologies to survive the lunar night, not just for rovers, but all sorts of space assets. >>Yeah. Huge. That's a hardware, you know, five, nine kind of like meantime between failure conversation, right. >><laugh> and it's, it gets fun, right? Because you talk five nines and it's such like, uh, you know, ingrained part of the aerospace community. But what we're pitching is we can send a dozen rovers for the cost of one of these historical rovers. So even if 25% of 'em fail, you still have eight rovers for the cost of one of the old rovers. And that's just the, economy's a scale. >>I saw James Hamilton here walking around. He's one of the legendary Amazonians who built out the data center. You might come by the cube. That's just like what they did with servers. Hey, if one breaks throw it away. Yeah. Why buy the big mainframe? Yeah. That's the new model. All right. So now about, uh, space space, that's a not space space, but like room to move around when you start getting some of these habitats going, um, how does space factor into the size of the location? Um, cuz you got the, to live there, solve some of the thermal problems. How do I live on space? I gotta have, you know, how many people gonna be there? What's your forecast? You think from a mission standpoint where there'll be dozens of people or is it still gonna be small teams? >>Yeah. >>Uh, what's that look like? >>I mean you >>Can guess it's okay. >>I mean, my vision's thousands of people. Yep. Uh, living and working in space because it's gonna be, especially the moon I think is a destination that's gonna grow, uh, for tourism. There's an insane drive from people to go visit a new destination. And the moon is one of the most unique experiences you could imagine. Yep. Um, in the near term for Artis, we're gonna start by supporting the Artis astronauts, which are gonna be small crews of astronauts. Um, you know, two to six in the near term. >>And to answer your question, uh, you know, in a different way, the habitat that we're actually gonna build, it's gonna take dozens of these robotic systems to build and maintain over time. And when we're actually talking, timelines, force talks, thousands of people living and working in space, I think that's gonna happen within the next 10 to 15 years. The first few folks are gonna be on the moon by 2025. And we're pushing towards having dozens of people living and working in space and by 2030. >>Yeah. I think it's an awesome goal. And I think it's doable question I'll have for you is the role of software in all this. I had a conversation with, uh, space nerd and we were talking and, and I said open sources everywhere now in the software. Yeah. How do you repair in space? Does you know, you don't want to have a firmware be down. So send down backhoe back to the United States. The us, wait a minute, it's the planet. I gotta go back to earth. Yeah. To get apart. So how does break fix work in space? How, how do you guys see that problem? >>So this one's actually quite fun. I mean, currently we don't have astronauts that can pick up a or change a tire. Uh, so you have to make robots that are really reliable, right. That can continuously operate for years at a time. But when you're talking about long-term repairs, there's some really cool ideas and concepts about standardization of some of these parts, you know, just like Lu knots on your car, right? Yeah. If everyone has the same Lu knots on their wheel, great. Now I can go change it out. I can switch off different parts that are available on the line surface. So I think we're moving towards, uh, that in the long >>Term you guys got a great company. Love the mission. Final question for both of you is I noticed that there's a huge community development around Mars, living on Mars, living on the moon. I mean, there's not a chat group that clubhouse app used, used to be around just kind of dying. But now it's when the Twitter spaces Reddit, you name it, there's a fanatical fan base that loves to talk about an engineer and kind of a collective intelligence, not, may not be official engineering, but they just love to talk about it. So there's a huge fan base for space. How does someone get involved if they really want to dive in and then how do you nurture that audience? How does that, is it developing? What's your take on this whole movement? It's it's beyond just being interested. It's it's become, I won't say cult-like but it's been, there's very, a lot of people in young people interested in space. >>Yeah. >>Yeah. There's, there's a whole, lots of places to get involved. There's, you know, societies, right? Like the Mar society there's technical committees, um, there's, you know, even potentially learning about these, you know, taking a space, resources master program and getting into the field and, and joining the company. So, um, we really, uh, thrive on that energy from the community and it really helps press us forward. And we hope to, uh, have a way to take everyone with us on the mission. And so stay tuned, follow our website. We'll be announcing some of that stuff soon. >>Awesome. And just one last, uh, quick pitch for you, John, I'll leave you with one thought. There are two things that space has an infinite amount of the first is power and the second is resources. And if we can find a way to access either of those, we can fundamentally change the way humanity operates. Yeah. So when you're talking about living on Mars long term, we're gonna need to access the resource from Mars. And then long term, once we get the transportation infrastructure in place, we can start bringing those resources back here to earth. So of course there are gonna be those people that sign up for that first mission out to Mars with SpaceX. But, uh, we'd love for folks to join on with us at lunar outpost and be a part of that kind of next leap accessing those resources. >>I love the mission, as always said, once in the cube, everything in star Trek will be invented someday. <laugh>, we're almost there except for the, the, uh, the transporter room. We don't have that done yet, but almost soon be there. All right. Well, thanks for coming. I, I really appreciate Justin for us for sharing. Great story. Final minute. Give a plug for the company. What are you guys looking for? You said hiring. Yep. Anything else you'd like to share? Put a plug in for lunar outpost. >>Absolutely. So we're hiring across the board, aerospace engineering, robotics engineering, sales marketing. Doesn't really matter. Uh, we're doubling as a company currently around 58 people, as we said, and we're looking for the top people that want to make an impact in aerospace. This is truly a unique moment. First time we've ever had continuous reliable operations. First time NASA is pushing really hard on the public private partnerships for commercial companies like ours to go out and create this sustainable presence on the moon. So whether you wanna work with us, our partner with us, we'd be excited to talk to you and, uh, yeah. Please contact us at info. Lunar outpost.com. >>We'll certainly follow up. Thanks for coming. I love the mission we're behind you and everyone else is too. You can see the energy it's gonna happen. It's the cube coverage from re Mars new actions happening in space on the ground, in the, on the moon you name it's happening right here in Vegas. I'm John furrier. Thanks for watching.

>>We're here live in Las Vegas with a cubes coverage of Amazon re Mars. It's a reinvent re Mars reinforced. The big three shows called the res. This is Mars machine learning, automation, robotic and space. It's a program about the future it and the future innovation around industrial cloud scale climate change the moon, a lot of great topics, really connecting all the dots together here in Las Vegas with Amazon re Mars I'm John ER, host of the cube. Our first guest is Howard Hughes program manager, necess Ryan program. Howard is involved with all the action and space and the moon project, which we'll get into Howard. Thanks for coming on the cube. >>Well, Hey, thanks for having me here this morning. Appreciate you guys inviting me here. >>So this show is not obvious to the normal tech observer, the insiders in, in the industry. It's the confluence of a lot of things coming together. It's gonna be obvious very soon because the stuff they're showing here is pretty impressive. It's motivating, it's positive and it's a force for change in good. All of it coming together, space, machine learning, robotics, industrial, you have one of the coolest areas, the space what's going on with your Orion program. You guys got the big moon project statement to >>Explain. Well, let me tell you, I'll start with Orion. Orion is our next human space craft. That's gonna take humans beyond low earth orbit and we're part of the broader Artis campaign. So Artis is our plan, our NASA plan to return the first person of color, first woman, back to the moon. And we're very excited to do that. We have several missions that I could talk to you about starting with in a very few months, Artis one. So Artis one is going to fly on the space launch system, which is gonna be the biggest rocket we call the mega rocket has been built since the Saturn five on top of the SLS is the Ryan spacecraft and that Ryan spacecraft houses four crew members for up to 21 days in deep space. And we'll have an unru test in a few months launch on the S SLS. And Orion's gonna go around the moon for up to 40 days on Aus two, we will have the first test of the humans on board Orion. So four people will fly on Aus two. We will also circle the moon for about 10 to 12 days. And then our third mission will be our landing. >>So the moon is back in play, obviously it's close to the earth. So it's a short flight, relatively speaking the Mars a little bit further out. I'll see everyone as know what's going on in Mars. A lot of people are interested in Mars. Moon's closer. Yes, but there's also new things going on around discovery. Can you share the big story around why the moon what's? Why is the moon so important and why is everyone so excited about it? >>Yeah. You, you know, you know, coming to this conference and talking about sustainability, you know, I mean it is exploration is I think ingrained in our DNA, but it's more than just exploration is about, you know, projecting human presence beyond our earth. And these are the stepping stones. You know, we talk about Amazon talked about day one, and I think about, we are on those very early days where we're building the infrastructure Ryans of transportation infrastructure, and we're gonna build infrastructure on the moon to learn how to live on a surface and how to utilize the assets. And then that's very important because you know, it's very expensive to carry fuel, to carry water and all the necessities that you need to survive as a human being and outer space. If you can generate that on the surface or on the planet you go to, and this is a perfect way to do it because it's very in your backyard, as I told you earlier. So for future mission, when you want to go to Mars, you're nine months out, you really wanna make sure you have the technologies and you're able to utilize those technologies robustly and in a sustainable way. >>Yeah, we were talking before you came on, came camera camping in your backyard is a good practice round. Before you go out into the, to the wilderness, this is kind of what's going on here, but there's also the discovery angle. I mean, I just see so much science going on there. So if you can get to the moon, get a base camp there, get set up, then things could come out of that. What are some of the things that you guys are talking about that you see as possible exploration upside? >>Yeah. Well, several things. One is power generation recently. We just released some contracts that from vision power, so long, sustainable power capability is very, very important. You know, the other technologies that you need utilize is regenerative, you know, air, water, things that are, you need for that, but then there's a science aspect of it, which is, you know, we're going to the south pole where we think there's a lot of water potentially, or, or available water that we can extract and utilize that to generate fuel. So liquid hydrogen liquid oxygen is one of the areas that are very interesting. And of course, lunar minerals are very exciting, very interesting to bring and, and, and be able to mine potentially in the future, depending on what is there. >>Well, a lot of cool stuff happening. What's your take on this show here, obviously NASA's reputation as innovators and deep technologists, you know, big moonshot missions, pun intended here. You got a lot of other explorations. What's this show bring together, share your perspective because I think the story here to me is you got walkout retail, like the Amazon technology, you got Watson dynamics, the dog, everyone loves that's walking on. Then you got supply chain, robotics, machine learning, and space. It all points to one thing, innovation around industrial. I think what, what, what's your, what's your, what's your take? >>You know, I think one of the things is, is, you know, normally we are innovating in a, in our aerospace industry. You know, I think there's so much to learn from innovation across all these areas you described and trying to pull some of that into the spacecraft. You know, when, when you're a human being sitting in spacecraft is more than just flying the spacecraft. You know, you have interaction with displays, you have a lot of technologies that you normally would want to interact with on the ground that you could apply in space to help you and make your tasks easier. And I think those are things that are really important as we look across, you know, the whole entire innovative infrastructure that I see here in this show, how can we extract some that and apply it in the space program? I think there is a very significant leveraging that you could do off of that. >>What are some of the look at what's going on in donors? What are some of the cool people who aren't following the day to day? Anything? >>Well, well, certainly, you know, the Artman's mission Artis campaign is one of the, the, the coolest things I could think of. That's why I came into, you know, I think wrapping around that where we are not only just going to a destination, but we're exploring, and we're trying to establish a very clear, long term presence that will allow us to engage. What I think is the next step, which is science, you know, and science and the, and the things that can, can come out of that in terms of scientific discoveries. And I think the cool, coolest thing would be, Hey, could we take the things that we are in the labs and the innovation relative to power generation, relative to energy development of energy technologies, robotics, to utilize, to help explore the surface. And of course the science that comes out of just naturally, when you go somewhere, you don't know what to expect. And I think that's what the exciting thing. And for NASA, we're putting a program, an infrastructure around that. I think that's really exciting. Of course, the other parts of NASA is science. Yeah. And so the partnering those two pieces together to accomplish a very important mission for everybody on planet earth is, is really important. >>And also it's a curiosity. People are being curious about what's going on now in space, cuz the costs are down and you got universities here and you got the, of robotics and industrial. This is gonna provide a, a new ground for education, younger, younger generation coming up. What would you share to teachers and potential students, people who wanna learn what's different about now than the old generation and what's the same, what what's the same and what's new. What's how does someone get their arms around this, their mind around it? Where can they jump in? This is gonna open up the aperture for, for, for talent. I mean with all the technology, it's not one dimensional. >>Yeah. I think what is still true is core sciences, math, you know, engineering, the hard science, chemistry, biology. I mean, I think those are really also very important, but what we're we're getting today is the amount of collaboration we're able to do against organically. And I think the innovation that's driven by a lot of this collaboration where you have these tools and your ability to engage and then you're able to, to get, I would say the best out of people in lots of different areas. And that's what I think one of the things we're learning at NASA is, you know, we have a broad spectrum of people that come to work for us and we're pulling that. And now we're coming to these kinds of things where we're kind getting even more innovation ideas and partnerships so that we are not just off on our own thinking about the problem we're branching out and allowing a lot of other people to help us solve the problems that >>We need. You know, I've noticed with space force too. I had the same kind of conversations around those with those guys as well. Collaboration and public private partnerships are huge. You've seen a lot more kind of cross pollination of funding, col technology software. I mean, how do you do break, fix and space at software, right? So you gotta have, I mean, it's gotta work. So you got security challenges. Yeah. This is a new frontier. It is the cybersecurity, the usability, the operationalizing for humans, not just, you know, put atypical, you know, scientists and, and, and astronauts who are, you know, in peak shape, we're talking about humans. Yeah. What's the big problem to solve? Is it security? Is it, what, what would you say the big challenges >>Are? Yeah. You know, I think information and access to information and how we interact with information is probably our biggest challenge because we have very limited space in terms of not only mass, but just volume. Yeah. You know, you want to reserve the space for the people and they, they need to, you know, you want maximize your space that you're having in spacecraft. And so I think having access to information, being able to, to utilize information and quickly access systems so you can solve problems cuz you don't know when you're in deep space, you're several months out to Mars, what problems you might encounter and what kind of systems and access to information you need to help you solve the problems. You know, both, both, both from a just unplanned kind of contingencies or even planned contingencies where you wanna make sure you have that information to do it. So information is gonna be very vital as we go out into deep >>Space and the infrastructure's changed. How has the infrastructure changed in terms of support services? I mean see, in the United States, just the growth of a aerospace you mentioned earlier is, is just phenomenal. You've got smaller, faster, cheaper equipment density, it solved the technology. Where's there gonna be the, the big game changing move movement. Where do you see it go? Is it AIST three? It kind of kicks in AIST ones, obviously the first one unmanned one. But where do in your mind, do you see key milestones that are gonna be super important to >>Watch? I think, I think, I think, you know, we've already, you know, pushed the boundaries of what we, we are, you know, in terms of applying our aerospace technologies for AIST one and certainly two, we've got those in, in work already. And so we've got that those vehicles already in work and built yeah. One already at the, at the Kennedy space center ready for launch, but starting with three because you have a lot more interaction, you gotta take the crew down with a Lander, a human landing system. You gotta build rovers. You've gotta build a, a capability which they could explore. So starting with three and then four we're building the gateway gateways orbiting platform around the moon. So for all future missions after Rist three, we're gonna take Aion to the gateway. The crew gets into the orbiting platform. They get on a human landing system and they go down. >>So all that interaction, all that infrastructure and all the support equipment you need, not only in the orbit of the moon, but also down the ground is gonna drive a lot of innovation. You're gonna have to realize, oh, Hey, I needed this. Now I need to figure out how to get something there. You know? And, and how much of the robotics and how much AI you need will be very interesting because you'll need these assistance to help you do your daily routine or lessen your daily routine. So you can focus on the science and you can focus on doing the advancing those technologies that you're gonna >>Need. And you gotta have the infrastructure. It's like a road. Yeah. You know, you wanna go pop down to the moon, you just pop down, it's already built. It's ready for you. Yep. Come back up. So just ease of use from a deployment standpoint is, >>And, and the infrastructure, the things that you're gonna need, you know, what is a have gonna look like? What are you gonna need in a habitat? You know, are, are you gonna be able to have the power that you're gonna have? How many station power stations are you gonna need? Right. So all these things are gonna be really, things are gonna be driven by what you need to do the mission. And that drives, I think a lot of innovation, you know, it's very much like the end goal. What are you trying to solve? And then you go, okay, here's what I need to solve to build things, to solve that >>Problem. There's so many things involved in the mission. I can imagine. Safety's huge. Number one, gotta be up safe. Yep. Space is dangerous game. Yes. Yeah. It's not pleasant there. Not for the faint of heart. As you say, >>It's not for the faint >>Heart. That's correct. What's the big safety concerns obviously besides blowing up and oxygen and water and the basic needs. >>I think, I think, you know, I think you, you said it very well, you know, it is not for the faint of heart. We try to minimize risk. You know, asset is one of the big, you're sitting under 8.8 million pounds of thrust on the launch vehicle. So it is going very fast and you're flying and you, and, and it's it's light cuz we got solid rocket motors too as well. Once they're lit. They're lit. Yeah. So we have a escape system on Orion that allows a crew to be safe. And of course we build in redundancy. That's the other thing I think that will drive innovation. You know, you build redundancy in the system, but you also think about the kind of issues that you would run into potentially from a safety perspective, you know, how you gonna get outta situation if you get hit by a meteor, right? Right. You, you, you are going through the band, Ellen belt, you have radiation. So you know, some of these things that are harsh on your vehicle and on, on the human side of this shop too. And so when you have to do these things, you have to think about what are you gonna protect for and how do you go protect for that? And we have to find innovations for >>That. Yeah. And it's also gonna be a really exciting air for engineering work. And you mentioned the data, data's huge simulations, running scenarios. This is where the AI comes in. And that seems to me where the dots connect from me when you start thinking about how to have, how to run those simulations, to identify what's possible. >>I think that's a great point, you know, because we have all this computing capability and because we can run simulations and because we can collect data, we have terabytes of data, but it's very challenging for humans to analyze at that level. So AI is one of the things we're looking at, which is trying to systematically have a process by which data is called through so that the engineering mind is only looking at the things and focus on things that are problematic. So we repeat tests, every flight, you don't have to look at all the terabytes of data of each test. You have a computer AI do that. And you allow yourself to look at just the pieces that don't look right, have anomalies in the data. Then you're going to do that digging, right. That's where the power of those kinds of technologies can really help us because we have that capability to do a lot of computing. >>And I think that's why this show to me is important because it, it, it shows for the first time, at least from my coverage of the industry where technology's not the bottleneck anymore, it's human mind. And we wanna live in a peaceful world with climate. We wanna have the earth around for a while. So climate change was a huge topic yesterday and how the force for good, what could come outta the moon shots is to, is to help for earth. >>Yeah. >>Yeah. Better understanding there all good. What's your take on the show. If you had to summarize this show, re Mars from the NASA perspective. So you, the essence space, what's the what's going on here? What's the big, big story. >>Yeah. For, for me, I think it's eyeopening in terms of how much innovation is happening across a spectrum of areas. And I look at various things like bossy, scientific robots that the dog that's walking around. I mean to think, you know, people are applying it in different ways and then those applications in a lot of ways are very similar to what we need for exploration going forward. And how do you apply some of these technologies to the space program and how do we leverage that? How do we leverage that innovation and how we take the innovations already happening organically for other reasons and how would those help us solve those problems that we're gonna encounter going forward as we try to live on another planet? >>Well, congratulations on a great assignment. You got a great job. I do super fun. I love being an observer and I love space. Love how at the innovations there. And plus space space is cool. I mean, how many millions of live views do you see? Everyone's stopping work to watch SpaceX land and NASA do their work. It's just, it's bringing back the tech vibe. You know what I'm saying? It's just, it's just, things are going you a good tailwind. Yeah. >>Congratulations. Thank you very much. >>Appreciate it on the, okay. This cube coverage. I'm John fur. You're here for the cube here. Live in Las Vegas back at reinvent reinforce re Mars, the reser coverage here at re Mars. We'll be back with more coverage after this short break.