from San Francisco it's the queue covering Red Hat summit 2018 brought to you by Red Hat hey welcome back everyone here live in San Francisco at Moscone West of cubes exclusive coverage of Red Hat summit 2018 I'm John four with mykos John Troy a founder of tech reckoning advisory and on community services firm our next guest is Jason O'Connell openshift platform owner of mark mcquarrie group welcome to the cubes let's get it right that's right well the retail bank of Macquarie so thank you and financial services thanks for coming on so bossy begging is pretty hot big time early adopter of all things tech yes and you doing a lot of work at kubernetes tell us about what you're doing take a minute to explain your job what your focus is some of the some of the environment DevOps things you're doing it's a basically I'm head of the container platform team at Macquarie Bank so basically my team manages open shifts on AWS we do the architecture on there but we also focus a lot on the value add on top so we don't just give our our customers for my team are the developers and the development teams we don't just give them a blank platform we do a lot of automation a lot of work on top of that basically because we want to make sure that the idea of a platform as a service is that we do as much as possible to make developers lives easy talk about the journey when did you start on this effort Asli Amazon's great cloud we use it as well other clouds are coming on you had Google and Microsoft and others but when did the open shift conversations start happening where were you what year was it how long have you been using it it's gone through some great changes I want to get your experience on that open shifter journey I mean somewhat of an early adopter I mean we started looking at this two years ago so that was openshift 3.1 a lot of the basic features weren't even there and it took us a year to both build it out as well as migrate about 40 applications to production so it was only a year ago that we've been in production so it's evolved like so rapidly during that time so 40 applications migrating right that enough in and of itself in a year is is a pretty heavy lift can you talk a little bit about are you just re platforming the applications obviously probably not rewriting at this point the open shift has been a good home for the applications that you started out with it sounds like I mean one of the reasons to choose open shift was docker and it was about that migration path I mean part of the migration was ensuring that developers could get everything running locally get these legacy systems we did a lot of micro services running locally on docker containers on their laptop then the migration was was easy from there but we deliberately didn't want to do like a lift and shift we wanted to rethink how we delivered software as part of this project okay what's the biggest challenges you had in doing this I mean as you can open ships got some great movement Houston Cooper native good bet and kubernetes is looking like a really awesome way to move workloads around and manage containers and clusters so you know what's what are some of the things we've learned what are some of the complexities that you overcame can you share a little bit about some of the specifics I think I think the newness is is probably the biggest challenge I mean going back to two years ago there was some very basic components that weren't there at the time and we knew were coming and even now there are pieces of work which we just don't tackle and we do a very quick fix because we know it's coming later I mean it's just moving and evolving so quickly you know we're waiting a lot for sto which is coming in the future so we're holding back on investing in certain areas because of that so it's always a constant challenge yeah I still looking good and the service mesh is hot as well how has OpenShift helped you but what's the list if you had to kind of boil it down what's the bin the the impact to you guys where's the where's that coming from I mean before we even selected OpenShift we had we're looking at our objectives from a business perspective not a technology perspective I'm the biggest objective we had was speed to delivery you know how could you get a business idea a product idea into production as fast as possible or even if you look at a minor fix to something something that should be easier develop it takes a data ride why does it take a month to release the production so speed of delivery was one of the key objectives and I can tell you more about how we we delivered that in detail but just going back to the objectives we also looked at developer experience you know sometimes the developers are not spending enough time coding and doing it they want they get bogged down in a lot of other pieces of work that I I'm really delivering business value yeah so again we wanted the platform to handle that for them they could focus more on their work this is the promise of DevOps and the whole idea of DevOps is to automate away the hassles and I mean my partner Dave a lot that calls a rock fetches no one likes to do all that work it's like can someone else just handle it and then when you got now automation that frees it up but this brings up the thing that I would love to get your reaction to because one things we've been covering and talking a lot about in the cube is this isn't happening around us it's not just what we're doing but this new modern way to deploy software you'll get like some of the big things that are happening in with cloud native and you mission is do is to do this awesome dynamic things on the fly that are automated away so it changes the how software is being built how are you guys embracing that what's the thought obviously you've got a team that's got the mindset of dev yeah I'll see embracing this vision and if everything else is probably substandard she'll you look at you know waterfall or any kind of non agile what is the your view of this modern era of writing code and building applications what I mean for people who don't aren't getting it how are you how do you explain it you know I think it's I mean it's an unbelievable time that we're in at the moment I mean the amount of automation that we're doing is huge and part of our openshift is that it's an automated bull platform so I've got a few junior guys in my team they're like two graduates and in turn they do a lot of the automation yeah it's that easy if you look at interestingly in like security and risk teams and governance teams where we're finding look they can improve security risk and all this by automating you know they're the one set and now we've got SEC offs movements and things like that so speed of production is is does not prohibit better security and in fact with Sec ups the amount of automation we do you got a far greater amount of security because we now know everything that's deployed we can continually scanning for vulnerabilities yeah so Jason you talked about it being new we've talked a little bit about culture how much of this has been a training exercise how much is that it's been a cultural shift within your organization as one of the leaders of it how are you approaching I mean we're lucky there within Macquarie Bank there was a large scale culture shift towards agile where the whole bank runs in that gel manner so that's helped us then fill in our technology and automation it complements that way of delivering so we've got some very unique ways where we've done automation and delivery which completely rethinks how we used to deliver before so right example yeah for instance now if you think why were people scared of delivering something into production why was a small change scary change and a big part of it is the blast radius if something went wrong you know connecting through to our API is we've got our own channels mobile apps a website you've got a lot of partners there are the companies connecting through as well and so even if you did a small change if it costs an issue everyone's affected at once so a big piece of what we did to deliver faster is allowed targeted releases you know I could target a release and a change just to you we could target it to a percentage of customers monitor rolled out quickly if there's a problem dial it up if it's looking good good target to any channel it seems like there's a business benefit to that too right that's massive here because you also can promise stability on certain channels if you want you can have faster channels that are moving quickly and in an API driven world we've got external companies connecting through to these api's you want to be able to say that we've given you a stable offering and you can upgrade when you want and then our channels we cannot move more fast so we've got a minister no-brainer I mean really the old way is completely dead because of that because I think what the blast radius you're pointing about blast radius the risk is massive so everyone's kind of on edge all these tests have to go in redundancies as if the planning is ridiculous all for the risk all that energy you're optimizing for a potential non-event or event here with micro services and you an out can go down to the granular level the granularity is really amazing so when you go forward first of all it's a recruiting opportunity to get better engineers wait this is a way we work I'm going forward I want you to comment on your opinion as an industry participant and can clarify this because a lot of people get confused here Automation they think jobs are going away administration is getting automated system admin type roles where junior people can now do more operating things but the operating roles not going away so talk about that that ops side because now the ops are more efficient the right things are audited maybe but talk about that dynamic between the right things being automated and the right things that are gonna roll to operational service messages or whatnot yeah I mean basically it's about getting people to do these higher-order functions so the people who are doing things manually and operating things manually you look at our Ops teams now morphing into like the classic SRE team you know the side reliability engineering teams where they're spending a significant amount of that time automating things you know looking at alerting and monitoring and then Auto healing I mean it's actually more work to automate everything but with a far greater amount of quality and reliability and what we get and the benefits are long it's worth it basically you do the work upfront and you reap the benefits and then variety away it's like writing rolling out software managing workloads talk about multi class here on Amazon multi cloud is a big focus to your hybrid cloud multi-cloud obviously we're seeing that trend how do you look at multi cloud as a practitioner what are some of the things that check our check boxes for you in terms of okay as we start looking to the next level there might be a multiple cloud scenario how do you think about that and how do you put that into perspective that's worth noting even two years ago and we selected openshift it was with the idea that we could go multi cloud you know that for the users for the developers they're not going to know the difference where we run it on so we're not locked into any provider final question for you if you can boil down openshift into kind of like a soundbite for you what does it mean to you guys what's been the benefit what's been it it's been that what's been the role what's the benefit of OpenShift as you pour the cloud journey you know I could say speed I could say automation I mean that's huge but but really open shift and read how to pick the winner which is docker and kubernetes and a colleague of mine is in coop con in Copenhagen last week he's constantly messaging me saying there's new tooling you guys can use this you can use that and it means that rather than us doing the work we're just getting tooling from the community so it's the de facto standards so that's that's probably the biggest benefit all the goodness is just coming right to your front door luckily and I got to do my homework every night playing around with this technology so yeah gates success story and again the great community open-source projects out there you guys can bring that in and productize it for the retail bank congratulations love open-source stories like this tier one citizen and again continues to power the world open source softens the cube do our part bring and use all the data from Red Hat summit 2018 I'm John fryer with John Tory we'll be back with more after this short break

from San Francisco it's the queue covering Red Hat summit 2018 brought to you by Red Hat hey welcome back everyone here live in San Francisco at Moscone West of cubes exclusive coverage of Red Hat summit 2018 I'm John four with mykos John Shroyer founder of tech reckoning advisory and on community services firm our next guest is Jason O'Connell openshift platform owner of mark McQuarrie group welcome to the Cuse let's get it right that's right well the retail bank of Macquarie so thank you and financial services thanks for coming on so bas lead banking is pretty hot big-time early adopter of all things tech yes and you doing a lot of work at kubernetes tell us about what you're doing take a minute to explain your job what your focus is some of the some of the environment DevOps things you're doing that's the basic I'm head of the container platforms team at Macquarie Bank so basically my team manages open shifts on AWS we do the architecture on there but we also focus a lot on the value add on top so we don't just give our our customers for my team are the developers and the development teams we don't just give them a blank platform we do a lot of automation a lot of work on top of that basically because we want to make sure that the idea of a platform as a service is that we do as much as possible to make developers lives easy tell about the journey when did you start on this effort Asli Amazon's great cloud we use it as well other clouds are coming on you got Google and Microsoft and others but when did the open shift conversations start happening where were you what year was it how long have you been using it it's gone through some great changes I want to get your experience on that opened she have to journey I mean somewhat of an early adopter I mean we started looking at this two years ago so that was openshift 3.1 a lot of the basic features weren't even there but it took us a year to both build it out as well as migrate about 40 applications to production so there's only a year ago that we've been in production so it's evolved like so rapidly during that time so 40 applications migrating right that enough in and of itself in a year is is a pretty heavy lift can you talk a little bit about are you just replied forming the applications obviously probably not rewriting at this point the open shift has been a good home for the applications that you started out with it sounds like I mean one of the reasons to choose openshift was docker and it was about that migration path I mean part of the migration was ensuring that developers could get everything running locally get these legacy systems we did a lot of micro services running locally on docker containers on their laptop then the migration was was easy from there but we deliberately didn't want to do like a lift and shift we wanted to rethink how we delivered software as part of this project okay what's the biggest challenges you had in doing this I mean as you go but she has got some great movements you could burn aces a good bet and kubernetes is looking like a really awesome way to move workloads around and manage containers and clusters so you know what's what are some of the things we've learned what are some of the complexities that you overcame can you share a little bit about some of the specifics I think I think the newness is is probably the biggest challenge I mean going back to two years ago there were some very basic components that weren't there at the time when we knew were coming and even now there are pieces of work which we just don't tackle and we do a very quick fix because we know it's coming later I mean it's just moving and evolving so quickly you know we're waiting a lot for sto which is coming in the future so we're holding back on investing in certain areas because of that so it's always a constant challenge yeah I still looking good and the service mesh is hot as well how has OpenShift helped you but what's the what's the if you had to kind of boil it down what's the been the the impact to you guys where's the where's that coming from I mean before we even selected OpenShift we had we're looking at our objectives from a business perspective not a technology perspective I'm the biggest objective we had with speed to delivery you know how could you get a business idea a product idea into production as fast as possible or even if you look at a minor fix to something something that should be easier develop it takes a data ride why does it take a month to release the production so speed of delivery was one of the key objectives and I can tell you more about how we we delivered that in detail but just going back to the objectives we also looked at developer experience you know sometimes the developers are not spending enough time coding and doing if they want they get bogged down in a lot of other pieces of work dinner I'm really delivering business value yeah so again we wanted the platform to handle that for them they could focus more on their work and this is the promise of DevOps and the whole idea of DevOps is to automate away the hassles and I mean my part to Dave a lot that calls a rock fetches no one likes to do all that work it's like can someone else just handle it and then when you got now automation that frees it up but this brings up the thing I would love to get your reaction to because one things we've been covering and talking a lot about in the cube is this is been happening around us it's not just what we're doing but this new modern way to deploy software you look at like some of the big things that are happening in with cloud native and you mention SEO is to do this awesome dynamic things on the fly that are automated away so it changes the how software is being built how are you guys embracing that what's the thought oh so you've got a team that's got the mindset of DevOps yeah I'll see embracing this vision and if everything else is probably substandard she'll you look at you know waterfall or any kind of non agile what is the your view of this modern era of writing code and building applications what I mean for people who don't aren't getting it how are you how do you explain it you know I think it's I mean it's an unbelievable time that we're in at the moment I mean the amount of automation that we're doing is huge and part of our openshift is that it's an automated bull platform so I've got a few junior guys in my team they're like two graduates and in turn they do a lot of the automation yeah it's that easy now everything's got API so we can connect everything so I do find when we interface with some of the older school teams in different parts of the bank that aren't doing this level of automation they used to manual processes and manual ways of doing things and now we look at everything where everything can be automated that's thing you really truly feel now opened up that you could automate absolutely everything I mean the developer productivity one is key you know state of mind is another I mean the mood is better okay people are in a better mood more productive yeah and I think if you look at interestingly in like security and risk teams and governments teams where we're finding look they can improve security risk and all this by automating you know they're the one set and now we've got SEC offs movements and things like that so speed of production is is does not prohibit better security and in fact with Sec ups the amount of automation we do you got a far greater amount of security because we now know everything that's deployed we can continually scanning for vulnerabilities yeah what so Jason you talked about it being new we've talked a little bit about culture how much of this has been a training exercise how much is that it's a cultural shift within your organization as one of the leaders of it how are you approaching I mean we're lucky there within Macquarie Bank there was a large scale culture shift towards agile where the whole thing runs in that gel manner so that's helped us then feel in our technology and automation it complements that way of delivering so we've got some very unique ways where we've done automation and delivery which completely rethinks how we used to deliver before so example yeah for instance now if you think why were people scared of delivering something into production why was a small change scary change and a big part of it is the blast radius if something went wrong you know connecting through to our API is we've got our own channels we've got mobile apps got a website you've got a lot of partners there are the companies connecting through as well and so even if you did a small change if it costs an issue everyone's affected at once so a big piece of what we did to deliver faster is allowed targeted releases you know I could target a release and a change just to you we could target it to a percentage of customers monitor rolled out quickly if there's a problem dial it up if it's looking good good target to any channel it seems like there's a business benefit to that too oh it's massive here because you also can promise stability on certain channels if you want you can have faster channels that are moving quickly and in an API driven world we've got external companies connecting through to these api's you want to be able to say that we've given you a stable offering and you can upgrade when you want and then our channels we cannot move more fast so we've got mr. no-brainer I mean really the old way is completely dead because of that because you think about the blast radius you're pointing about blast radius the risk is massive so everyone's kind of on edge all these tests have to go in redundancies as if the planning is ridiculous all for the risk well that energy you're optimizing for a potential non-event or event here with micro-services and you and app can go down to the granular level the granularity is really amazing so when you go forward first of all it's a recruiting opportunity to get better engineers wait this is a way we work I'm going forward I want you to comment on your opinion as an industry participant and can clarify this because a lot of you'll get confused here automation they think jobs are going away administration is getting automated system admin type roles where junior people can now do more operating things but the operating roles not going away so talk about that that ops side because now the ops are more efficient the right things are audited me you but talk about that dynamic between the right things being automated and the right things that are gonna roll to operational service meshes or whatnot yeah I mean basically it's about getting people to do these higher-order functions so the people who are doing things manually and operating things manually you look at our Ops teams now morphing into like the classic SRE team you know the side reliability engineering teams where they're spending a significant amount of that time automating things you know looking at alerting and monitoring then Auto healing I mean it's actually more work to automate everything but with a far greater amount of quality and reliability when we go and the benefits are long it's worth it basically you do the work upfront and you reap the benefits and then variety of ways like writing rolling out software managing workloads talk about multi class here on Amazon multi cloud is a big focus to your hybrid cloud multi-cloud obviously we're seeing that trend how do you look at multi cloud as a practitioner what are some of the things that check our check boxes for you in terms of ok as we start looking for the next level there might be a multiple cloud scenario how do you think about that and how do you put that into perspective that's worth noting even two years ago and we selected open shifty it was with the idea that we could go multi-cloud you know that for the users for the developers they're not going to know the difference where we run it on so we're not locked into any provider I mean at the moment we're kind of just exploring Google cloud and we're looking at what it would look like so even we don't know yet some people have spoken about stretching your cluster across to clouds that means one cluster across two seems very difficult to me that a lot of latency issues potentially there's also cloud arbitrage you know can we get certain workloads on a card that's cheaper can we use spot instances can we spin things up and down we're on Google it's cheaper and then it also raises questions around okay do we need Federation and we know Federation has been talked about a lot with kubernetes how do we manage so many clusters and even on AWS now we have three production clusters you had multi clouds how am I gonna manage that what about the services layer of clouds right obviously the Red Hat platform gives you a services layer that could run anywhere but underneath that right AWS has its own services layer Google you know a lot of AI ml you know it could you be able to are you thinking about taking advantage or how are you thinking about those different offerings on different different places I mean this is the challenge I face and what we're exploring is that do some teams have the differentiating services the unique services that they want on Google especially for managing data machine learning we know those services are key for them some teams will have that but yet then can we call them over from AWS even oh do we have to deploy in in Google and have that in one data center can we go across with services so it's really like not just cloud AWS cloud Google but it's actually criss-crossing that's another thing we're exploring Jason thanks for coming on the cube really appreciate your commentary I've seen multiple red hats you guys have won awards you've been here before great job final question for you if you could boil down OpenShift into kind of like a sound byte for you what does it mean to you guys what's been the benefit what's been it it's been that what's been the role what's the benefit of openshift as you explore the cloud journey you know I could say speed I could say automation I mean that's huge but but really OpenShift and read how to pick the winner which is docker and kubernetes and a colleague of mine is in pucon in copenhagen last week he's constantly messaging me saying there's new tooling you guys can use this you can use that and a means that rather than us doing the work we're just getting tooling from the community so it's the de facto standards so that's that's probably the biggest benefit all the goodness is just coming right to your front door likely and I got to do my homework every night playing around with this technology so yeah great success story and again the great community open-source projects out there you guys can bring that in and productize it for the retail bank congratulations love open-source stories like this tier one citizen and again continues to power the world open-source softens the cube doing our part bring and use all the data from Red Hat summit 2018 I'm John fryer with John Tory we'll be back with more after this short break

>> Voiceover: Live from Boston, Massachusetts, it's the Cube, covering Red Hat Summit 2017. Brought to you by Red Hat. >> Welcome back to Red Hat Summit in Boston, everybody. This is theCUBE, the worldwide leader in live tech coverage. Luis Uguina is here, he's the Chief Digital Officer at Macquarie Bank, and he's joined by Rajay Rai, who's the head of digital engineering at the bank. Gentlemen, welcome to theCUBE. Congratulations on the keynote this morning. >> Luis: Thank you. >> Thank you. >> So, really liked the video, actually they show your colleague. Richard Heeley said, "We're digital first." That's your title, digital. Both of your titles. We look at Uber and Amazon, and eBay as the reference model. Most banks, you wouldn't expect that. Where does that come from? >> Luis: Well basically, if you see the banking industry, we have been a full digital business for a long time. So we're not any more moving money, real bank notes >> in Pony Express. >> Rajay: 1s and 0s (laughs). On the Pony Express, but the biggest issue is, with this full digital banking that we have where we're moving 1s and 0s, we have a quite old approach in terms of the culture and how we are doing things. So for us being digital first, means that we have the whole value chain is going to be digital. So from idea to execution we are removing every single thing that is not pure digital. And this starts with the backend systems, and then it's the way we work, the way we empower teams, the way we are doing things now in the bank. >> So, Rajay, we saw today, this morning, one of the videos, using OpenShift to take legacy applications, modernize them. You guys have gone through a similar, not identical, but similar process. Is that correct, and can you describe that. >> Absolutely. I think what's really important to understand is when you start trying to migrate to the cloud, you've got to consider various aspects of application development and packaging your application. So if you have a legacy application, your strategy and your container strategy needs to support... It has to be semi-structured, if you know what I mean. You've got new modern applications that need to be shipped out, and you've got legacy application need to be shipped into a container. And you've got to use the right technology, right strategies, be agnostic to the container. So what you do is take your applications, make them portable across various life cycles and the infrastructures that deploy 'em. >> Rajay, could you explain, what's your relationship with public clouds? How do you think about what applications you put where and it sounds like you've got building in some flexibility into how you're architecting things. >> So what we're doing is... Of course, we decided fundamentally, our objective was no matter what technology we pick, we need to make sure we're cloud agnostic. So you don't want to be picking one cloud provider and putting all your eggs in one basket. You've got to have the flexibility of moving things around, be it hybrid, be it on-prem, be it on the cloud, or picking any provider you want. So having a container technology, provides you the ability to be portable across various cloud environments. >> Luis, what's the conversation like in the corner offices of the bank? And what's your role, input in terms of strategy overall, the impact on the industry, the drivers, just wealth management in general, and other activities of the bank. Maybe you can describe that in strategic terms. >> So the role basically means what I'm doing every single day is basically transforming the way we're doing things. So at the end, we have a clear strategy in terms of how the business needs to behave. But then, how the technology is going to help the business is basically the strategic discussion that we have every single day. So about moving into the cloud, what we're moving into the cloud, if we're moving mission critical applications, or we are just moving other kind of applications, how we empower the teams to be doing things, what is the overall digital strategy that we have in terms of who is going to be doing work, and how we are going to modify, how we're going to upgrade the developer experience. So one of the things that is really important for us, and is key in our digital strategy is, probably one of the best assets that we have in Macquarie that is all the engineers that we have. At the end, when you are delivering a full digital experience to the customer, everything is happening from a engineering point of view. So for us, discussing with the engineers, how is the approach, how we are going to move in different applications, what is going to happen when. So basically is the discussion we have every day. >> And your north star, so to speak, is simple and enriching user experience, and speed is the other thing I heard. >> Luis: Yup, yup, yup. >> And that's really where presumably your team comes in, right? >> Rajay: Absolutely. So you know, the businesses come up with ideas, and it's coming in really fast, so how do you double down on the winners? How do you pick the winners? How do you test and learn? So as an organization, from an engineering perspective, and from a business perspective, what's really important is for an organization to have a platform for execution. And the platform is not something you buy off the shelf. What you need to do is ensure that you have the right technology, people, process, and culture, altogether, to ensure that you have a certain amount of responsible autonomy in picking the technologies and the softwares that you wish to use in order to provide more value to the business. So if you think about software being the most important thing when it comes to creativity today, how do you provide that in the hands of the developers. As Solomon Hykes said this, from Docker, said, the vision of Docker was to provide tools of mass innovation in the hands of a common developer. And that's what we're attempting to do here. Once we do that, it will free up the ability for our organization, or our developers to innovate, and not worry about the complexities that you have with traditional environments. And containers provide you that platform. >> I'm wondering if you can share, organizationally, most companies, it's not like you started with 1000 developers five years ago. What's that migration of engineering talent? How much was retraining? How much was bringing in people that could help you attain this vision? >> Actually, when Luis joined, he set up the Ninjas. What we did was, about 2 1/2 years ago, 3 years ago, we set up the Ninjas, which Luis set up, and that team was, responsibility was to bring value to the business. Not only innovate in isolation, but to have direct... You innovate, and have a direct value to... You know, provide that value. So not have disconnection between an innovation lab and what's really required by the business. So we did that first, brought in the talent, we used... It was a lot of learning curves, so we brought in functional programming, we introduced distributed technologies like Cassandra, Solar, and Spark. We're a huge supporter of open source. At Macquarie Bank, in BFS, Banking and Financial Services, we have lots of meetups. So that way, what happened is, we started supporting the community as such. We host a lot of these meetups. We encourage people to come, and learn. We do the same in our organization, so we started small, and then started making sure that we could take that across the various other business units. >> Luis, I'm curious, from the banking industry in general, do you see a lot of your peers getting involved in the open source thing? I think back to 10 or 15 years ago, it was like, oh well, IT was... Big banks spent a ton of money on IT, they have expertise they want to do, so sharing was a lot of times tough, even though usually, there was behind the scenes, some peers talking, but what do you see happening in the banking industry with IT? >> So what I think is, a lot of things are happening right now and they are changing really, really fast. So obviously, 10 years ago, speaking about the open source, basically with this old days mindset were, I'm not going to put in my system something that I haven't developed, or something that is not from a well-known company that is going to be helping us, just in something happen. But I think the new culture that we have in the banking industry where you need to be faster, and you need to be able to deliver faster services, at higher speed. The only way you can do that is by using open source, and by sharing what you are doing with others. So we have a lot of meetups at Macquarie where we are sharing what we are doing with other banks, and we are happy to be sharing what we are doing, and we're happy just to be understanding what's happening in the market. So what I think is, if we want to be ahead of the pack, the only way is by having a completely different approach in the banking industry. We cannot maintain the old days approach and trying to be the number one in that space. >> Your data strategy has to fit into this. Both of you have digital in your title. That means both of you have essentially, de facto data in your title. What is the relationship to... Do you have a Chief Data Officer, or are you it by de facto standard? >> Luis: We have, yup. >> And what is your data strategy? How is that evolving? >> I think what's happening today in the world is... It's important to understand that data analytics is moving from downstream to upstream. So the technologies you have need to evolve as well. What we believe in is, you need to have two forms of strategies. One is a cold strategy, one is for your hot data strategy. So you have a strategy where you have solutions like Hadoop, and then you have solutions like Cassandra, that's sitting on the edge, closer to the customers, enabling you to have that always-on architecture follow you. If you have to support follow you anywhere applications, you need to have data on the edge, persistent there, cached there, in a distributed manner, and it can provide the data at high speed. So it's all about fast data, which is a combination of streaming data which doesn't fit in memory anymore, having to access large amount of data that's in batch, running small batches on the edge, and combining them and providing the power that you need. So you need hot and cold to come together to provide that power that you need today. >> And are you bringing analytics and transaction workloads together. What role does application development play in terms of being able to speed that up? >> So we use a unique way of doing this, actually. What we've done is, firstly we've got a small set of team that is focused on this, focused on bringing the data alive. So, we call it the smart data store. We're using distributed technologies like Cassandra, we use Spark, and we use Solar. So when you have a conversation, if somebody's calling up a bank, they call a bank because they have a reason to call and ask a question. And for example, you spent your money in a fuel station somewhere, and you've forgotten where, in London for example, you could say, how much did I spend in fuel in London? So that's how a brain thinks, so having that capability is important. So we use full text search, we use a lot of predictive analytics, machine learning, to tag the transactions that we get. So we're doing a lot at the edge. That entire strategy is essentially called Hybrid Transactional/Analytical Processing. I think Gartner calls that HTAP and it's Trans-analytics when it comes to Forrester. So that's a strategy we use in our data at the moment. >> Excellent. So what's next for you guys on the horizon? Again, back to strategy, so you've sort of laid out this vision of simplification and speed, you're working toward that, I think you said 50 applications that you've migrated- >> Luis: Yup, yup. We've migrated already. >> More of that, presumably. What's the next big hurdle? >> So for us, once we have the platform, we now have the basic building blocks that will allow us to do the next jump into the future. So for us, right now, we are working this with all those, that enrichment that Rajay has been speaking about. So we have really good knowledge about what's happening in the bank, and what's happening in the customer's life. The next step, what is going to be a game changer again for the financial industry, we think, is starting to understand the behavior of the customer. And speaking about the behavior of the customer means that as a customer, we deliver one platform, and we deliver quite same capabilities to every single customer. But how the bank is going to behave with every single customer is going to be different. And the system needs to be able to learn from the customer behavior. One example is, a couple of years ago, we send push alerts every time that you are using your card. And what happened is every single morning, when I buy my coffee, I receive the push alert that says, "Hey, you have spent $3.50 on your coffee". What I'm doing is just I'm just swiping my alert. But Rajay is probably doing something different. So what the banks are able to say here is, hey Luis, you're not really interested in this push alert. So the system should be saying, Luis, from now on I'm going to remove this alert from your push alert system. And just in case something strange happen like instead of $3.50, $35, or two transactions in the same second, you're not going to receive that. So the system should be able to learn from my own behavior, and should be able to deliver a completely different experience to every single customer. Right now, we are building the system, and we have the basic building blocks. We're not yet there, but probably will be in six, seven months, there. And where things are, we're going to deliver a completely transformational experience to the customer. >> Great. Alright, gentlemen, we got to leave it there. Thanks so much for coming on theCUBE. Congratulations on the initiative, really great stuff. >> Thank you very much. >> Thank you, thank you. >> Keep it right there, everybody. We'll be back with our next guest. This is theCUBE, we're live from Red Hat Summit in Boston. Right back. (digital music)

San Francisco it's the Red Hat summit 2018 brought to you by Red Hat okay welcome back everyone this is the cube live in San Francisco for Red Hat summit 2018 I'm John for the co-host of the cube and this week for three days of wall-to-wall coverage my co-host analyst is John Tory the co-founder of check reckoning and advisory and community development services firm industry legend formerly VMware's Bentley he was at the Q in 2010 our first ever cube nine years ago John Day one wrap up let's analyze what we heard and dissect and and put Red Hat into day one in the books but you know clearly it's a red-letter day for red hat so to speak your thoughts big day for open shift I think and hybrid cloud right we just saw a lot of signs here that we'll talk about that it's real there's real enterprises here real deployments in the cloud multi-cloud on-site hybrid cloud and i think there's really no doubt about that they really brought a brought the team out and you know red hat's become a bellwether relative to the tech industry because if you look at what they do there's so many irons on the fires but more the most important is that they have huge customer base in the enterprise which they've earned over a decades of work being the open source renegade to the open source darling and Tier one citizen they got a huge install basin they got to manage this so they can't just throw you know spaghetti at the wall they gotta have big solutions they're very technical company very humble but they do make some good tech bets absolutely we'll be talking with the folks from core OS tomorrow they have a couple of other action you know things we'll be talking about a lot of interesting partnerships the the most you know the thing here Linux is real and it's is the 20-year growth and that it's real in the enterprise and I mean the top line think the top line slowed and John is is is kubernetes than the gnu/linux for the cloud and I got to say there's some reality there yeah it's there's no doubt about it I mean then I've got my notes here just my summary for the day is on that point the new wave is here okay the glue layer that kubernetes and containers provide on top of say Linux in this case OpenShift a you know alternative past layer just a few years ago becomes the centerpiece of red hats you know architecture really providing some amazing benefits so I think what's clear is that this new shift this new wave is massive and we've heard on the cube multiple references to tcp/ip HTTP these are seminal moments where there's a massive inflection point where the games just radically changes for the better wealth creation happens startups boom new brands emerged that we've never heard of that just come out of the woodwork entrepreneurial activity hits an all-time high and they all these things are coming yeah I said John I was really impressed if we talk to a number of folks who are involved with technologies that some people might call legacy right we the Java programmers the IBM WebSphere folks they've been you you look at these technologies solid proven tested but yet still over here and adapted for today right and they talked about how they're fitting into openshift how they're fitting into modern application development and you're not leaving those people behind they're really here and you know the old joke going back to say Microsoft when Steve Ballmer was the CEO hell will freeze over when Linux isn't in in Microsoft ecosystem look today no further than what's going on in their developer Commerce called Microsoft build where Linux is the centerpiece of their open-source strategy and Microsoft has transformed themselves into a total open-source world so you know now you got Oracle with giving up Java II calling a Jakarta essentially bringing Java into an the Eclipse community huge move it's a kind of a nuance point but that's another signal of the shifts going on out in the open where communities aren't just yesterday's open source model a new generation of open source actors are coming in a new model I think the CNC F is showing it the Linux Foundation proves that you can have commercialization downstream with open source projects as that catalyst point as a big deal and I think that is happening at a new new level and it's super exciting to see yeah I mean open source is the new normal sure that that works it's in the enterprise but that doesn't mean that open source disappears it actually means that open source and communities and companies coming together to drive innovation actually gets more and more important I kind of thought well you know it's open source well everybody does open source but actually the the dynamics we're seeing of these both large companies partnering with small companies foundations like you talked about the Linux cutlasses various parts the Linux Foundation cloud boundary foundation etc right are really making a big impact well we had earlier on assistant general counsel David Levine and bringing about open source I think one key thing that's notable is this next generation of open source wave comes is the business model of open source and operationalizing it in not just server development lifecycle but in the business operation so for example spending resources on managing proprietary products with that have open source components separate from the community is a resource that you don't have to spend anymore if you just contribute everything to open source that energy can go away so I think open source projects and the product monetization component not new concepts is now highlighted as a bonafide competitive advantage across the company not just proven but like operationally sound legally verified certified and I think also you have to look at the distribution of open source versus the operation and management of open source we see a lot of management managed kubernetes coming out and in fact we didn't talk about today Microsoft big announcement here at the show Microsoft is on Azure is running a managed open ship not not kubernetes they already have kubernetes they're running a managed open ship another way of adding value to an open open source platforms to date directly to the IT operator honestly do you think these kind of deals would happen if you go back four years three years ago oh no way as you're running an open shift absolutely I mean were you crazy the you know the kingdom is turned upside down absolutely this is a notable point I want to get your reaction is because I see this absolutely as validation to the new wave being here with kubernetes containers as a de facto rallying point an inflection point big deals are happening IBM and Red Hat big deal we just talked about them with the players here two bellwether saying we're getting behind containers and two bays in a big way from that relationship essentially it changes the game literally overnight for IBM changes the game for Red Hat I think a little bit more for IBM than Red Hat already gets a ton of benefit but IBM instantly gets a cloud strategy that has a real scalable product market to it Arvind the the head of research laid that out and IBM now can go and compete with major players on deals with the private cloud more deals are coming absolutely this is the beginning now that everyone snapped into place is saying okay kubernetes and containers we now understand this the rallying cry a de facto standard I think a formation is going to happen in the next six to 12 months of major major major players now I mean we are in a not one size does not fit all world John so I mean we will continue to see healthy ecosystems I mean mesosphere and DT cos is still out there Dockers still out there right you will see very functional communities and and functioning application platforms and cloud platforms but you got to say the momentum is here I mean look at amine docker mace those fears look at when things like this happened this is my opinion so I'm just gonna say it out there when you have de facto standards that happen like this it's an opportunity to differentiate so I think what's gonna happen is docker meso sphere and others including the legacy guys like IBM and in others they have to differentiate their products they have to compete software companies so I think docker I think is come tonight at docker con but my opinion looking at from the outside is I think Dockers realized looking we can't make money from containers kubernetes is happening we're a great standard in that let's be a software company let's differentiate around kubernetes so this is just more pressure or more call-to-action to deliver good software hey it's never been of somebody said it's never been a better time to be an IT and IT infrastructure right this is a you think that the tools we have available to us super-powerful another key point I want to get your reaction on with kubernetes and containers this kind of de facto standardization is breathing new life into good initiatives and legacy projects so you think about OpenStack okay OpenStack gets a nice segmented approach is now clear with a where the swim lanes are you're an app developer you go over here and if you are a network and infrastructure guy you're going here but middleware a from talk to the Red Hat guys here we talk to IBM those legacy and apps can put a container around it and don't have to be thrown away and take their natural course now I think it's gonna be a three line through this holy a second life is for legacy and stuff and then to cloud is and it's in second inning because now you have the enablement for cloud your reaction the enablement of cloud Ibn iBM has cloud and then the market shares of nm who you believe they're not in that they're in the top three but they're not double digits according to synergy research and he bought us a little bit higher but still if you compare public cloud they're small they look at IBM's and tire and small base and saying if they have a specialty cloud that can be assembled quit Nellie yeah and scaled and maybe instantly successfully overnight yeah I think a few years ago you know there was a lot different always a few years back it always looks confusing right a few years back we were still arguing public cloud private cloud as private cloud ed is what is a true private cloud is that even valuable I still see people on Twitter making fun of everything anybody who's not 100% into the full public cloud which means they must not have talked to you know a lot of IT folks who have to business to run today so I think you're saying it's a it's a it's a multivalent world multi-cloud there's going to be differentiated clouds there's going to be operational clouds there's gonna be financial clouds and just it's it seems clear that you know from the perspective of right now here in San Francisco and 2018 that that you know the purpose of public-private hybrid seems pretty clear just like the purpose of like I said we're gonna in two weeks we'll be an openstack summit I mean the purpose of that seems pretty clear it's it's funny it's like I had this argument and each Assateague he thinks everything should go the public cloud goes eaten has one of the public clouds but he's kind of right and I and I and we talked about this way I with him I said if everything is running cloud operation we're talking about cloud ops we're talking about how its managed how its deployed code bases across the board if everything is clarified from an OP raishin standpoint the Dearing on Prem and cloud and IOT edge is there's no difference stuffs moving around so you almost treats a data center as an edge network so now it's sexually all cloud in my mind so then and also you do have to keep in mind time time horizons right anybody who has to do work the today this quarter right has to keep in mind what's what what portfolio of business deeds and tools do I have right now versus what it's gonna look like in a few years all right so I want to get your thoughts on your walk away from today I'll start my walk away from day one was talking some of the practitioners Macquarie Bank and Amadeus to me they're a tell signed the canary in the coalmine what's happening horizontally scalable synchronous infrastructure the new model is here now we're seeing them saying things like it's a streaming world not just Kafka for streaming data streaming services levels of granularity that at workers traded with containers and kubernetes up and down the stack to me architects who think that way will have a preferred advantage over everybody else that to me was like okay we're seeing it play out I guess I totally agree right the future isn't evenly distributed my takeaway though is there's certainly a future here and the people we talked to today are doing real-world enterprise scale multi-cloud micro services and modern architectures incorporating their legacy applications and components and that and they're just doing it and they're not even breaking a sweat so I think IT has really changed ok day one coverage continues day two tomorrow we have three days of wall-to-wall coverage day two and then finally day three Thursday here in San Francisco this is the cubes live coverage go to the cube dotnet to check out all the videos they're gonna be going up as soon as they are done live here and check out all the cube alumni and check out Silicon angle comm for all news coverage then of course you got tech reckoning Jon's company's the co-founder of for John Fourier and John Shroyer that's day one in the books thanks for watching see you tomorrow

>> Man: Live, from Boston, Massachusetts, it's The Cube, covering Red Hat Summit 2017, brought to you by Red Hat. >> Welcome back to The Cube's coverage of the Red Hat Summit, here in Boston, Massachusetts. I'm you're host Rebecca Knight along with my co-host Stu Miniman. We're joined by Ashesh Badani. He is the Vice President and General Manager of OpenShift here at Red Hat. Thanks so much, Ashesh. >> Thanks for having me on yet again. >> Yes, you are a Cube veteran, so welcome back. We're always happy to talk to you. You're also an OpenShift veteran. You've been there five years, and before the cameras are rolling you were talking about how we really are at a tipping point here with OpenShift, and we're seeing a widespread adoption and embrace of containers. Can you share the context with us. >> Sure, so I think we've spent a fair amount of time in this market talking about how important containers are, the value of containers, DevOps, microservices. I think at this Red Hat Summit, we've spent a fair amount of time trying to ensure that people understand one containers are real, in terms of, you know, adoption level that we're seeing. They're being run in production and at scale. And across a variety of industries, right. So, just at this summit we've had over 30 customers from across the world, across industries like financial services, government, transportation, tech, telco, a variety of different industries talking about how they've been deploying and using containers. At our keynotes we had Macquarie Bank from Australia, Barclay's Bank from the U.K. We had United Health slash OPTUM. All talking about, you know, mission critical applications, how their developers running applications, both new applications, right, microservice-style applications, but also existing legacy applications on the OpenShift platform. >> Ashesh, I've been watching this for a few years, we've talked to you many times, we talked about containers. Maybe I'm oversimplifying it but let me know. It feels like OpenShift is your delivery mechanism to take some things that might be hard if I tried to do them myself and made it a lot simpler. Kind of give like Red Hat did for Linux, I have containers, I have Kubernetes, I have OpenStack, and all three of those I didn't hear a ton at the show, I heard a lot about OpenShift and the OpenShift family because underneath OpenShift are those pieces. Am I gettin' it right, or there's more nuance you need-- >> Great observation, great observation, yeah, and we're seeing that from our customers, too. So, when they're making strategic choice, they're talking about, you know, how can I find the container platform to run at scale. When they make their choice, all they're thinking about well what's the existing, you know, development tools I've got. Can it integrate with the ones that I have in place. What's the underlying infrastructure they can run on. OpenStack of course is a great one, right. We have many customers, Santander, BBVA Bank are just two examples of those, but then also, can I run the OpenShift structure in a hybrid cloud, or I guess what we're calling a multi-cloud world now. Amazon, Google, Asher, and so on. But actually interestingly enough we made some announcements with Amazon as well at the show with regard to making sure some AWS service are able to be integrated into the OpenShare platform. So, we find customers today finding a lot of value in the flexibility of the deployment platforms they have in place, integration with various developer tools. I think my colleague Harry Mower was on earlier talking about OpenShift.io, again, you know, super interesting, super exciting now it's been from our perspective with regard to giving developers more choice. And in addition to that, you know, the other parts of the portfolio, right, going to your point, earlier. We're trying to attach that increasingly as options for customers around OpenShift. Storage is a great example. So we announced some work we've doing with regard to container storage with our classified system for OpenShift. >> So you're talking about simplification and that does seem to be a real theme here. Once you've solved that problem, what's next, what are some of the other customer issues that you need to resolve and help them overcome and make their lives easier? >> Yeah, so, the rate of change in technology, as you well know, you've been following this now for a while is just dramatic, right. I think it's probably faster than we've ever seen in a long, long time. I was having a conversation with a large franchise customer with regard to, you know, just as we feel like, you know, we're getting people to adopt Hadoop, everyone seems to have moved on to Spark. And now we're on Spark and people are talking about, oh, maybe Flink is next. Now that we get to Flink, now they're saying AI and ML is next. It's just like, well, where does this stop, right. So I don't think it stops. The question is, you know, at what point of time do you sort of jump in. Embrace the change, right, that's sort of what Devops all about right, continuous change, you know, embrace it, be able to evolve with it, fail fast, pick yourself up, and then have the organization be in this sort of continuous learning, this kaizen environment. >> Yeah, Ashesh, from day one of the keynote talked about the platforms and you know Red Hat Enterprise Linux was kind of the first big platform that can live a lot of environments. Seems OpenShift is a second platform, and the scope of it seems to be growing. We talked to Harry about the OpenShift.io. He alluded to the fact that we might see expansion into the family there. What is, you said that innovation, and you know change keeps growing. What's the boundaries of what OpenShift's going to cover. Where do you see it today and where's the vision go moving forward? >> Yeah, so (laughs) great question, a double-edged sword right. Because on the one hand of course we want to make sure OpenShift is a foundation for doing a lot of stuff. But then there's also the Linux philosophy. Do one thing, do it well, right. And so there's always this temptation with regard to keeping on wanting to take new things on, right, I mean for a long time people have said, hey, why aren't we in the database business? You know, why aren't you doing more? Well the question is, you know, how many things can we do well? Because anything we commit to, as you well know, Red Hat will invest significant amount of engineering effort upstream in the community to help drive it forward, right. We've done that on Linux container front. We're doing that in Kubernetes. Obviously we do that with RHEL, we've done that Jboss technologies. So, we're very, very cognizant of making sure that we provide an environment and basically an ecosystem around us that can grow and be able to attach the momentum we have in place. As a result of that we announced the container health index at this conference, right. Mostly because, you know, there's just no way for one company to provide all the services that are possible, right. So to be able to grade applications that come in, be able to sort of give customers confidence that, you know, these can be certified and work in our environment, and then be able to kind of expand out that ecosystem is going to be really important going forward. >> Yeah, Ashesh that's an interesting one, the container health index. I'm going to play with the term there. What's the health of the container industry there. We at The Cube at DockerCon a couple weeks ago had a couple of Red Hatters on the program. There was kind of a reshuffling, you know. The Moby project, open source, we've got Docker CE, Docker EE, Docker actually referenced, you know, Fedora and CentOS and RHEL as you know, something that they did similar to but, what's your take on the announcements there? >> Sure, sure, I'll probably butcher this quote tremendously, but it was Mark Twain or someone said, "The rumors of my whatever are greatly exaggerated," so. You know, there's always, you know, some amount of change that sort of happens, especially with new technology, and you've got so many players sort of jumping in, right. I mean of course there's Docker Inc. There's Red Hat but there's, you know, Google and IBM and Microsoft and Amazon, and there's a lot of companies, right, that all look at this as a way of advancing the number of workloads that come onto their platforms. You know, we've seen some of the challenges, if you will, that Docker Inc. has been facing as well as the great work it's been doing to help drive the community forward, right. Those are both interesting things. And they've got a business to run. We've announced, we've seen the changes announced with regard to some of the renaming and Moby, and I think there's still a lot more detail that need to be fleshed out. And so I, we're going to wait for the dust to settle. I think we want to make sure our customers are confident. We've had this conversation with many customers that whatever direction that, you know, we go in, we will continue supporting that technology. We will stand behind it. We will make sure we're putting upstream engineers to help drive the community that will provide the greatest value for customers. >> Ashesh, you're one of the judges for the Innovation Awards here. Can you tell us a little bit more about the secret sauce that you're looking for. First of all, how you choose these winners, and what it is you're looking for. >> Yeah, so I'm really proud of the work I do to help support the judging of the Innovation Awards. You know, I think it's a fantastic thing we do to recognize, I was telling Stu earlier, you know we could probably have done a dozen more awards, right, the entries that are coming in are just fantastic. We try to change up the categories a little bit every year to kind of match with the changes in industry, like for example, you know, DevOps, Macquarie Bank was a great example of enterprise transformation. You know, they had this great line in their keynote right, where their ambition I think really impressed a lot of the judges with regard to, hey our competition is not necessarily the other financial service companies, it's the last app you opened. That's a remarkable thing, right. Especially for an existing traditional financial services company, you see. So, I think what we look for is scope, ambition, and vision, but also how you're executing against it, and what demonstrable results do you have for that. And so, you probably saw that, as, you know, we talked about all the various innovation awards we gave, right, whether it's Macquarie Bank or, you know, British Columbia Empower Individuals, right, so the whole notion of celebrating the impact of individual, and create an exchange for them to engage with the wider civic body. That's really important for us. >> Ashesh, one of the innovation award-winners OPTUM we talked to, they're an OpenShift customer. They're really excited with the AWS announcement. We've been chewing on it, talking to a lot of people. We think it's the most significant news coming out of the show. As you said, there's certain details that need to bake out when we look at some of these things. By the time we get to AWS Reinvent we'll probably understand a little bit some of the pricing and, you know, some of the other pieces, and it'll be there, but, you know, bring us from your viewpoint, from an OpenShift standpoint what this means to kind of an extension of the product line and your customers. >> Yeah, so, we've got, at least at this show you had over 30 customers presenting about their use of OpenShift. And we typically find them deploying OpenShift in a variety of different environments including AWS. So for example Swiss Rail, right, obviously out of Switzerland, is taking advantage of, you know, running it in their own data center, taking advantage of AWS as well. When they're doing that they want to make sure that they can consume services from Amazon. Just as if they were running it on Amazon, right. They like the container platform that OpenShift provides, and they like the abstraction level that it puts in place. Of course they have different choices, right. They can choose to run it on OpenStack, they can choose to run OpenShift in some other public cloud provider, yet there are many services that Amazon's releasing that are extremely interesting and value that they provide to their customers. By being able to have relationship with Amazon, and have an almost native experience of those services with regard to OpenShift, regardless of the underlying infrastructure OpenShift runs, it is a very powerful value proposition, definitely for our customers. It's a great one for Amazon because it allows for their services to be used across a multitude of environments. And we feel good about that because we're creating value for our customers, and of course not precluding them from using other services as well. >> I'm wondering if you could shed a little light on the financials, and how you think about things. I mean, you made this great point about the banks saying our competition is the last app you opened. How do you think, with OpenShift, which is free, how do you view your competition, and how do you think about it in terms of the way companies are making their decisions about where they're putting their money in IT investments. >> Right, so OpenShift isn't free, so I'll just make sure-- (all laugh) >> OpenShift.io >> OpenShift.io, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, yes. >> So, consider OpenShift.io as a great gateway into the OpenShift experience, right. It's a cloud-based web environment allows you to develop in browsers, allows you some collaboration with other developers. There's actually a really cool part of the tech, I don't know if Harry talked about right, which is, we almost have, almost machine-learning aspect part of it, you know, that's in play with regard to, you know, if this is the code you're using, here are what other users are doing with it, making recommendations, and so on, so it's a really modern integrated, you know, development environment that we're sort of introducing. That of course doesn't mean that customers can't use existing ones that they have in place. So this is just giving customers more choice. By doing that, we're basically expanding the span of options the customers have. We introduced something called OpenShift Application Runtimes also at this conference, which is supporting existing Java languages or tools or frameworks, right, whether it's Jboss, EAP, Vortex, WildFly, Spring Boot, but also newer ones like No-JavaScript, right, so again, in the spirit of, let's give you choices, let's have you sort of use what you most want to use, and then from our perspective, right, you know, we will create value when it's been deployed at scale. >> Ashesh, before the event at the beginning of it you guys run something called OpenShift Commons. There's some deep education and a lot of it very interactive. I'm curious if there's anything that's kind of surprised you or interesting nuggets that you got from the users. Either stuff that they were further ahead or further behind, or just something that's grabbin' their attention that you could share with our users. >> Well, what I've been really happy to see with the OpenShift Commons is, well, this is a couple things, right. One is we try our best to make it literally a community event, right, so we call it OpenShift Commons but it is a community event. So in the past and even now, we have providers of technologies, even though they might compete with Red Hat and OpenShift available to talk to. Customers, users of our technology, right, so we want it to be an open, welcoming environment for various providers. Second, we're seeing more and more customers wanting to come out and share their experiences, right. So at this OpenShift Commons, I think we had maybe over 10 customers present on, you know, how they were using OpenShift, and sharing with other customers. Number three, this really attracts other customers. I just had a large financial services institution come and say, you know, we attended OpenShift Commons for the first time. This is a fantastic community. How can we become a part of this? You know, get us involved. There's no cost to join, right, it's free and open, and now our numbers are pretty significant. And then when that's in place, right, the ecosystem forms around it. Now, so we have several different ISVs, global system integrators who are all sort of, you know, coalescing, to provide additional services. >> Ashesh, thanks so much for your time, we appreciate it. It's always a pleasure to have you on the program. >> Ashesh: Thanks again, see you all next time. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for Stu Miniman. There'll be more from the Red Hat Summit after this. (relaxed digital beats)