(upbeat music) >> Hello, and welcome to "theCUBE" conversation here in Palo Alto, California. I'm John Furrier, host of "theCUBE," got a great security conversation, Ed Casper who's the founder and CEO of Cloud Storage Security, the great Cloud background, Cloud security, Cloud storage. Welcome to the "theCUBE Conversation," Ed. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you very much for having me. >> I got Lafomo on that background. You got the nice look there. Let's get into the storage blind spot conversation around Cloud Security. Obviously, reinforced has came up a ton, you heard a lot about encryption, automated reasoning but still ransomware was still hot. All these things are continuing to be issues on security but they're all brought on data and storage, right? So this is a big part of it. Tell us a little bit about how you guys came about the origination story. What is the company all about? >> Sure, so, we're a pandemic story. We started in February right before the pandemic really hit and we've survived and thrived because it is such a critical thing. If you look at the growth that's happening in storage right now, we saw this at reinforced. We saw even a recent AWS Storage Day. Their S3, in particular, houses over 200 trillion objects. If you look just 10 years ago, in 2012, Amazon touted how they were housing one trillion objects, so in a 10 year period, it's grown to 200 trillion and really most of that has happened in the last three or four years, so the pandemic and the shift in the ability and the technologies to process data better has really driven the need and driven the Cloud growth. >> I want to get into some of the issues around storage. Obviously, the trend on S3, look at what they've done. I mean, I saw my land at storage today. We've interviewed her. She's amazing. Just the EC2 and S3 the core pistons of AWS, obviously, the silicons getting better, the IaaS layers just getting so much more innovation. You got more performance abstraction layers at the past is emerging Cloud operations on premise now with hybrid is becoming a steady state and if you look at all the action, it's all this hyper-converged kind of conversations but it's not hyper-converged in a box, it's Cloud Storage, so there's a lot of activity around storage in the Cloud. Why is that? >> Well, because it's that companies are defined by their data and, if a company's data is growing, the company itself is growing. If it's not growing, they are stagnant and in trouble, and so, what's been happening now and you see it with the move to Cloud especially over the on-prem storage sources is people are starting to put more data to work and they're figuring out how to get the value out of it. Recent analysts made a statement that if the Fortune 1000 could just share and expose 10% more of their data, they'd have net revenue increases of 65 million. So it's just the ability to put that data to work and it's so much more capable in the Cloud than it has been on-prem to this point. >> It's interesting data portability is being discussed, data access, who gets access, do you move compute to the data? Do you move data around? And all these conversations are kind of around access and security. It's one of the big vulnerabilities around data whether it's an S3 bucket that's an manual configuration error, or if it's a tool that needs credentials. I mean, how do you manage all this stuff? This is really where a rethink kind of comes around so, can you share how you guys are surviving and thriving in that kind of crazy world that we're in? >> Yeah, absolutely. So, data has been the critical piece and moving to the Cloud has really been this notion of how do I protect my access into the Cloud? How do I protect who's got it? How do I think about the networking aspects? My east west traffic after I've blocked them from coming in but no one's thinking about the data itself and ultimately, you want to make that data very safe for the consumers of the data. They have an expectation and almost a demand that the data that they consume is safe and so, companies are starting to have to think about that. They haven't thought about it. It has been a blind spot, you mentioned that before. In regards to, I am protecting my management plane, we use posture management tools. We use automated services. If you're not automating, then you're struggling in the Cloud. But when it comes to the data, everyone thinks, "Oh, I've blocked access. I've used firewalls. I've used policies on the data," but they don't think about the data itself. It is that packet that you talked about that moves around to all the different consumers and the workflows and if you're not ensuring that that data is safe, then, you're in big trouble and we've seen it over and over again. >> I mean, it's definitely a hot category and it's changing a lot, so I love this conversation because it's a primary one, primary and secondary cover data cotton storage. It's kind of good joke there, but all kidding aside, it's a hard, you got data lineage tracing is a big issue right now. We're seeing companies come out there and kind of superability tangent there. The focus on this is huge. I'm curious, what was the origination story? What got you into the business? Was it like, were you having a problem with this? Did you see an opportunity? What was the focus when the company was founded? >> It's definitely to solve the problems that customers are facing. What's been very interesting is that they're out there needing this. They're needing to ensure their data is safe. As the whole story goes, they're putting it to work more, we're seeing this. I thought it was a really interesting series, one of your last series about data as code and you saw all the different technologies that are processing and managing that data and companies are leveraging today but still, once that data is ready and it's consumed by someone, it's causing real havoc if it's not either protected from being exposed or safe to use and consume and so that's been the biggest thing. So we saw a niche. We started with this notion of Cloud Storage being object storage, and there was nothing there protecting that. Amazon has the notion of access and that is how they protect the data today but not the packets themselves, not the underlying data and so, we created the solution to say, "Okay, we're going to ensure that that data is clean. We're also going to ensure that you have awareness of what that data is, the types of files you have out in the Cloud, wherever they may be, especially as they drift outside of the normal platforms that you're used to seeing that data in. >> It's interesting that people were storing data lakes. Oh yeah, just store a womp we might need and then became a data swamp. That's kind of like go back 67 years ago. That was the conversation. Now, the conversation is I need data. It's got to be clean. It's got to feed the machine learning. This is going to be a critical aspect of the business model for the developers who are building the apps, hence, the data has code reference which we've focused on but then you say, "Okay, great. Does this increase our surface area for potential hackers?" So there's all kinds of things that kind of open up, we start doing cool, innovative, things like that so, what are some of the areas that you see that your tech solves around some of the blind spots or with object store, the things that people are overlooking? What are some of the core things that you guys are seeing that you're solving? >> So, it's a couple of things, right now, the still the biggest thing you see in the news is configuration issues where people are losing their data or accidentally opening up to rights. That's the worst case scenario. Reads are a bad thing too but if you open up rights and we saw this with a major API vendor in the last couple of years they accidentally opened rights to their buckets. Hackers found it immediately and put malicious code into their APIs that were then downloaded and consumed by many, many of their customers so, it is happening out there. So the notion of ensuring configuration is good and proper, ensuring that data has not been augmented inappropriately and that it is safe for consumption is where we started and, we created a lightweight, highly scalable solution. At this point, we've scanned billions of files for customers and petabytes of data and we're seeing that it's such a critical piece to that to make sure that that data's safe. The big thing and you brought this up as well is the big thing is they're getting data from so many different sources now. It's not just data that they generate. You see one centralized company taking in from numerous sources, consolidating it, creating new value on top of it, and then releasing that and the question is, do you trust those sources or not? And even if you do, they may not be safe. >> We had an event around super Clouds is a topic we brought up to get bring the attention to the complexity of hybrid which is on premise, which is essentially Cloud operations. And the successful people that are doing things in the software side are essentially abstracting up the benefits of the infrastructures of service from HN AWS, right, which is great. Then they innovate on top so they have to abstract that storage is a key component of where we see the innovations going. How do you see your tech that kind of connecting with that trend that's coming which is everyone wants infrastructures code. I mean, that's not new. I mean, that's the goal and it's getting better every day but DevOps, the developers are driving the operations and security teams to like stay pace, so policy seeing a lot of policy seeing some cool things going on that's abstracting up from say storage and compute but then those are being put to use as well, so you've got this new wave coming around the corner. What's your reaction to that? What's your vision on that? How do you see that evolving? >> I think it's great, actually. I think that the biggest problem that you have to do as someone who is helping them with that process is make sure you don't slow it down. So, just like Cloud at scale, you must automate, you must provide different mechanisms to fit into workflows that allow them to do it just how they want to do it and don't slow them down. Don't hold them back and so, we've come up with different measures to provide and pretty much a fit for any workflow that any customer has come so far with. We do data this way. I want you to plug in right here. Can you do that? And so it's really about being able to plug in where you need to be, and don't slow 'em down. That's what we found so far. >> Oh yeah, I mean that exactly, you don't want to solve complexity with more complexity. That's the killer problem right now so take me through the use case. Can you just walk me through how you guys engage with customers? How they consume your service? How they deploy it? You got some deployment scenarios. Can you talk about how you guys fit in and what's different about what you guys do? >> Sure, so, we're what we're seeing is and I'll go back to this data coming from numerous sources. We see different agencies, different enterprises taking data in and maybe their solution is intelligence on top of data, so they're taking these data sets in whether it's topographical information or whether it's in investing type information. Then they process that and they scan it and they distribute it out to others. So, we see that happening as a big common piece through data ingestion pipelines, that's where these folks are getting most of their data. The other is where is the data itself, the document or the document set, the actual critical piece that gets moved around and we see that in pharmaceutical studies, we see it in mortgage industry and FinTech and healthcare and so, anywhere that, let's just take a very simple example, I have to apply for insurance. I'm going to upload my Social Security information. I'm going to upload a driver's license, whatever it happens to be. I want to one know which of my information is personally identifiable, so I want to be able to classify that data but because you're trusting or because you're taking data from untrusted sources, then you have to consider whether or not it's safe for you to use as your own folks and then also for the downstream users as well. >> It's interesting, in the security world, we hear zero trust and then we hear supply chain, software supply chains. We get to trust everybody, so you got kind of two things going on. You got the hardware kind of like all the infrastructure guys saying, "Don't trust anything 'cause we have a zero trust model," but as you start getting into the software side, it's like trust is critical like containers and Cloud native services, trust is critical. You guys are kind of on that balance where you're saying, "Hey, I want data to come in. We're going to look at it. We're going to make sure it's clean." That's the value here. Is that what I'm hearing you, you're taking it and you're saying, "Okay, we'll ingest it and during the ingestion process, we'll classify it. We'll do some things to it with our tech and put it in a position to be used properly." Is that right? >> That's exactly right. That's a great summary, but ultimately, if you're taking data in, you want to ensure it's safe for everyone else to use and there are a few ways to do it. Safety doesn't just mean whether it's clean or not. Is there malicious content or not? It means that you have complete coverage and control and awareness over all of your data and so, I know where it came from. I know whether it's clean and I know what kind of data is inside of it and we don't see, we see that the interesting aspects are we see that the cleanliness factor is so critical in the workflow, but we see the classification expand outside of that because if your data drifts outside of what your standard workflow was, that's when you have concerns, why is PII information over here? And that's what you have to stay on top of, just like AWS is control plane. You have to manage it all. You have to make sure you know what services have all of a sudden been exposed publicly or not, or maybe something's been taken over or not and you control that. You have to do that with your data as well. >> So how do you guys fit into the security posture? Say it a large company that might want to implement this right away. Sounds like it's right in line with what developers want and what people want. It's easy to implement from what I see. It's about 10, 15, 20 minutes to get up and running. It's not hard. It's not a heavy lift to get in. How do you guys fit in once you get operationalized when you're successful? >> It's a lightweight, highly scalable serverless solution, it's built on Fargate containers and it goes in very easily and then, we offer either native integrations through S3 directly, or we offer APIs and the APIs are what a lot of our customers who want inline realtime scanning leverage and we also are looking at offering the actual proxy aspects. So those folks who use the S3 APIs that our native AWS, puts and gets. We can actually leverage our put and get as an endpoint and when they retrieve the file or place the file in, we'll scan it on access as well, so, it's not just a one time data arrest. It can be a data in motion as you're retrieving the information as well >> We were talking with our friends the other day and we're talking about companies like Datadog. This is the model people want, they want to come in and developers are driving a lot of the usage and operational practice so I have to ask you, this fits kind of right in there but also, you also have the corporate governance policy police that want to make sure that things are covered so, how do you balance that? Because that's an important part of this as well. >> Yeah, we're really flexible for the different ways they want to consume and and interact with it. But then also, that is such a critical piece. So many of our customers, we probably have a 50/50 breakdown of those inside the US versus those outside the US and so, you have those in California with their information protection act. You have GDPR in Europe and you have Asia having their own policies as well and the way we solve for that is we scan close to the data and we scan in the customer's account, so we don't require them to lose chain of custody and send data outside of the accoun. That is so critical to that aspect. And then we don't ask them to transfer it outside of the region, so, that's another critical piece is data residency has to be involved as part of that compliance conversation. >> How much does Cloud enable you to do this that you couldn't really do before? I mean, this really shows the advantage of natively being in the Cloud to kind of take advantage of the IaaS to SAS components to solve these problems. Share your thoughts on how this is possible. What if there was no problem, what would you do? >> It really makes it a piece of cake. As silly as that sounds, when we deploy our solution, we provide a management console for them that runs inside their own accounts. So again, no metadata or anything has to come out of it and it's all push button click and because the Cloud makes it scalable because Cloud offers infrastructure as code, we can take advantage of that and then, when they say go protect data in the Ireland region, they push a button, we stand up a stack right there in the Ireland region and scan and protect their data right there. If they say we need to be in GovCloud and operate in GovCloud East, there you go, push the button and you can behave in GovCloud East as well. >> And with server lists and the region support and all the goodness really makes a really good opportunity to really manage these Cloud native services with the data interaction so, really good prospects. Final question for you. I mean, we love the story. I think it is going to be a really changing market in this area in a big way. I think the data storage relationship relative to higher level services will be huge as Cloud native continues to drive everything. What's the future? I mean, you guys see yourself as a all encompassing, all singing and dancing storage platform or a set of services that you're going to enable developers and drive that value. Where do you see this going? >> I think that it's a mix of both. Ultimately, you saw even on Storage Day the announcement of file cash and file cash creates a new common name space across different storage platforms and so, the notion of being able to use one area to access your data and have it come from different spots is fantastic. That's been in the on-prem world for a couple of years and it's finally making it to the Cloud. I see us following that trend in helping support. We're super laser-focused on Cloud Storage itself so, EBS volumes, we keep having customers come to us and say, "I don't want to run agents in my EC2 instances. I want you to snap and scan and I don't want to, I've got all this EFS and FSX out there that we want to scan," and so, we see that all of the Cloud Storage platforms, Amazon work docs, EFS, FSX, EBS, S3, we'll all come together and we'll provide a solution that's super simple, highly scalable that can meet all the storage needs so, that's our goal right now and where we're working towards. >> Well, Cloud Storage Security, you couldn't get a more a descriptive name of what you guys are working on and again, I've had many contacts with Andy Jassy when he was running AWS and he always loves to quote "The Innovator's Dilemma," one of his teachers at Harvard Business School and we were riffing on that the other day and I want to get your thoughts. It's not so much "The Innovator's Dilemma" anymore relative to Cloud 'cause that's kind of a done deal. It's "The Integrator's Dilemma," and so, it's the integrations are so huge now. If you don't integrate the right way, that's the new dilemma. What's your reaction to that? >> A 100% agreed. It's been super interesting. Our customers have come to us for a security solution and they don't expect us to be 'cause we don't want to be either. Our own engine vendor, we're not the ones creating the engines. We are integrating other engines in and so we can provide a multi engine scan that gives you higher efficacy. So this notion of offering simple integrations without slowing down the process, that's the key factor here is what we've been after so, we are about simplifying the Cloud experience to protecting your storage and it's been so funny because I thought customers might complain that we're not a name brand engine vendor, but they love the fact that we have multiple engines in place and we're bringing that to them this higher efficacy, multi engine scan. >> I mean the developer trends can change on a dime. You make it faster, smarter, higher velocity and more protected, that's a winning formula in the Cloud so Ed, congratulations and thanks for spending the time to riff on and talk about Cloud Storage Security and congratulations on the company's success. Thanks for coming on "theCUBE." >> My pleasure, thanks a lot, John. >> Okay. This conversation here in Palo Alto, California I'm John Furrier, host of "theCUBE." Thanks for watching.

>> Announcer: From the theCUBE studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE conversation. >> Hey, welcome back, everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE coming to you from our Palo Alto studios. Today we're going to have a CUBE conversation really about this kind of ongoing evolution of cloud, and it was a huge deal, and AWS came on the scene and really launched kind of the public cloud evolution, which not only was a different technology stack, but really a different way to think about things, a different way to think about workloads. And that has evolved to hybrid cloud and multicloud, and it just continues to evolve over time. So we're going to get some of the experts in from IBM to talk about their perspective and what they're doing all about it. So we're excited to invite our next guest. She is Briana Frank. She's the director of product management for IBM. Briana, good to see you. Where are you joining us from today? >> I am joining you from Wake Forest, North Carolina. And as you can see, I'm from my home office, but always busy working and fun doing things in the cloud and thinking about new technologies even when we're at home. >> Excellent. And also joining us, many-time CUBE alumni Jason McGee, IBM fellow, vice president and CTO of IBM Cloud Platform. Jason, great to see you again. I looked it up before we turned on the cameras. I think you've been on, like, eight times. So you're definitely a VIP in the CUBE alumni world. Where are you joining us from today? >> Yeah, I mean, I'm in Apex, which is outside of Raleigh, and great to be here again. It's always fun to talk to you guys. It's been a little while, but great to be back. >> Yeah, so let's just jump into it, right? You've all seen the memes revolving around what's driving your digital transformation. Is it the CEO, the CIO, or COVID? And we all know the answer to the question. It's really been an interesting time, right? It was kind of a light switch moment in mid-March. And then people are saying, you know, years and years of digital transformation kind of suddenly compressed into this light switch moment. But now we're months and months and months later, we're in October, and it's clear that this is not just a a one-time fix and wait till we all go back to work. This is going to continue for a while. And cloud is such a huge enabler. Had this happened five years ago, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, the ability for information workers, like the businesses that we're in, would've been much more difficult. So acknowledging that there's still a lot of people hurting, a lot, hospitality industry, restaurant industry, sports places that aggregate people, concerts. We're fortunate we're in the information industry. And I'd just love to get your perspective, Jason, on cloud as an enabling platform and really an enabling way of thinking about things that have made this transition a little bit less painful than it otherwise would've been. >> Yeah, that's a great point, Jeff, and I think on one hand it's been pretty amazing to see how much our industry in technology and IT has been able to kind of adapt to COVID, adapt to working at home, adapt to these kinds of changing models. But what's been really interesting is as someone who spends all their time thinking about cloud every day, it's been really incredible to see how much it's accelerated people's adoption of cloud. Like, obviously everyone was leveraging cloud. They had plans to move more and more workloads to cloud. But I think over the last six months we've really seen a massive acceleration, and I also think kind of a mindset shift that maybe before there was some hesitation and conversation about what things move to cloud and what things don't, and that seems to have kind of gone away, and everyone's like, this is the model that not only will carry us through moments like this, but we have newfound confidence that it's the right model for us to move the majority of our businesses to. >> Right. >> So really massive acceleration. >> Massive acceleration. And Briana, get your take, 'cause you're a product manager, so you're in the weeds on the speeds and feeds and the features and functions. Cloud as a concept sounds kind of simple, but the execution is not so simple. And we've seen kind of this morphing from moving your test dev maybe to a public cloud, IBM has a cloud, to there's some stuff that just can't go on the cloud or shouldn't go to the cloud or I'm not sure if it should go in the cloud. So now we're hearing talk of hybrid cloud and multicloud, and we're hearing pieces of public cloud in my own data center and pieces of my own data center in a public cloud. It's a pretty complicated space. I wonder if you can kind of share your perspective as this thing morphs from kind of a simple concept and a beautiful little icon to a much more complex execution in the real world. >> Well, great question and insights. And I think, building off of what Jason said, I think the most important shift I've seen is really a mind shift, a mindset shift. And there's so much more empathy that I'm seeing across the board, whether it's children running in the background or cats and pets, there's a lot more tolerance for work-life balance and a lot more empathy for how people are getting through this really challenging pandemic. And what I think is interesting is that kind of carries over into the technology. And so now where some of our clients were solving problems like keeping their workforce safe by using video analytics to see if someone's using or wearing maybe a hard hat in a construction zone. Now that use case has sort of shifted, and now it's is someone wearing a mask? Do they have a temperature? How do we make sure that the office areas are sanitized and clean so that when people go back to work, they'll be working in a safe environment? So I think that the mindset shift is really driving a lot of these technology innovations. And then of course you need cloud to make those real. So I think that's the kind of aha moment I've seen is that people are leading with empathy and that's driving kind of the next wave of innovation that I'm seeing. >> I have to say I've been doing these many, many years, and Briana, I don't think anyone has brought up empathy at the at the head end of the open. And I love that 'cause I think that's a way to think about it, right? 'Cause these are people trying to execute business activities, and it's not easy. And that's a really great take. Jason, I want to go back to you and talk about one of the things we talked about the cloud, but really it's about enabling applications, right? And really, the application now has become this first class citizen where it's, this is the app I want. Cloud enables me to use whatever infrastructure I need versus this is the infrastructure I have. Hm, what can I put on this app? So I'd love to get your take. As you said, you think about cloud all the time, but really, cloud is an app enabler. And how has, as that capability has been gifted to people, how has that made the the cloud execution a lot more complex? >> Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I think you're hitting on a really key transformation that's happened in cloud over the last few years, which is that it's gone from infrastructure kind of cost optimization to an application delivery accelerator. And what I think that's caused is everyone's starting to kind of move their thinking up the stack in cloud, and you see the rise of technologies like Kubernetes and OpenShift as a platform that enables application developers to build applications and deliver them more quickly. I think the acceleration that we've been talking about here has cemented that. At the end of the day, we're all trying to figure out in our businesses how to adapt to change. We have some new changes this year that maybe we didn't predict we would have last year. We're trying to figure out how to adapt to those to deliver new capabilities, to maybe build a digital experience for something that we didn't have a digital experience for before, 'cause now nobody is face to face. And that requires cloud to be much more application-centric. It requires cloud, you alluded to this kind of evolution. I think it's starting to drive cloud into more places. Cloud isn't about just getting into some big cloud data center somewhere. Cloud is about a style of working and a set of technologies that I want to be able to consume wherever I need them. So that kind of application-centric capability and the rise of cloud-native technologies I think go hand in hand. >> Right, so it got to us from a simple dev swiping a credit card to do a little project on Amazon to now enterprising having very complex ecosystems, right? Very complex situation because they've got lots of different clouds and lots of different apps running on lots of different clouds, and the application and the control of those is now much more complicated than probably when you just had it all in your own data center or if you're some cloud data organization and you grew up on the public cloud and you really are kind of a single app that happens to be a big one in hyperscale. So I'm curious, Briana, you guys have a ton of customers. What are they telling you about what they're doing with hybrid cloud, managing hybrid cloud, trying to get back to some of the simplicity and kind of the simplistic vision and execution when what's happening is probably increasing complexity as different apps are running on different clouds, different places. >> Yeah, great question. You know, I think that what we're hearing from our clients is really a couple of things. One is that they have to find ways to unburden their teams. They only have limited resources and the sky's the limit in terms of what's possible. So they need to be able to innovate faster, but they have to unburden the team. So the rise of "as a service" I think is really coming into its own because teams don't have time to manage things like Kubernetes. They have to go higher in the stack and really start to build and innovate for their own business differentiation. But another I think really important thing that we're hearing from our clients is that we have to meet them where they are in their journey. So what you said was great. A lot of our clients are using five to nine different clouds today, and that's extraordinarily fragmented, and being able to manage and have one way to see what workload is running where and what is running on that workload is really important. And having kind of one single pane of glass where they can manage everything is one of the single most important features that I hear that is needed. And I think the other thing that I hear a lot from clients is they need flexibility. They need flexibility for, you know, where they are in their journey. Some folks, they need to be able to deploy to existing infrastructure that they have in their data center, and others need to be able to deploy to another public cloud. And having the flexibility to run anywhere is one of the more common themes that I'm seeing. >> Right, so, and you guys built something to help with that, right? It's the IBM cloud satellite. So you just basically outlined the customer challenge, so what did you have to do to enable them to have a single pane of glass, to have more control across these disparate projects running in disparate clouds. >> Well, so one of the things that we found is our clients really, all of the agility that they need to adopt cloud data best practices, really comes from the public cloud. The public cloud services, DevOps, all the tools that allow you to really run and move faster and innovate faster, but they needed that ability to consume those public cloud services anywhere. So at the edge, on another public cloud, or in their existing infrastructure. And of course there's tons of infrastructure options. We have infrastructure for our clients that they can use. We have turnkey appliances. But really having that public cloud, cloud-native agility, but really bringing that anywhere that our clients want to run it is the key to satellite. >> Right, right. So it's not kind of what would be typically thought of as a hybrid cloud solution per se, but it's really almost kind of a level up, if I'm hearing you correctly, in controlling all the different kind of instances or instantiations of your cloud execution. That'd be accurate, Jason? >> Yeah, well, or maybe another way to think about it is it's a way of consuming hybrid, right? It's a way of consuming these hybrid cloud capabilities. Hybrid starts with a common platform, and this idea that we are using things like OpenShift as that common technology platform that enables customers to build applications once and run them anywhere. What satellite brings to the table is it takes that base technology platform and it delivers it as a cloud service, and a cloud service that's flexible enough to be anywhere. And so you kind of combine the best of both. You combine a common technology approach and you combine the as a service API-based consumption model of public cloud to get a hybrid strategy that's super flexible, right? And now really lets customers focus on the work that they're doing going faster. And at IBM, we've been pretty clear that we think the future of hybrid cloud computing is rooted in technologies like Kubernetes and OpenShift, that that's the platform of the future. The acquisition of Red Hat was motivated by that strategy. Our public cloud for the last three-plus years has been built internally on top of the same technologies. And so what we've done with satellite from a technology perspective is we've taken the things that we do in our cloud and we've used the power of of Kubernetes and OpenShift to deliver those anywhere, right? And to give customers that same experience on their infrastructure or on some other public cloud. >> Right. I love it because it's kind of cloud on cloud, if you will, but it really supports this notion of the customer experience, and even more importantly in some ways, the developer experience to make sure that your developers inside the house are feeling good, have a great productive environment so they can do a better job with what they're working on. And that that sounds like something they would really, really enjoy and be native to the way they're used to working already. >> It's interesting too, one of the kind of interesting, I don't know, adoption trends we're starting to see with approaches like satellite is if you think about cloud, I'll oversimplify, but you could say there's kind of two big transformations. One is move my workload to a public cloud, and the other is change how my team works, right? Adopt cloud-native, agile best practices. And often to get to the culture change of the team, you had to start with moving the app, but that's hard, especially for the kind of 80% of workloads that we're seeing move to cloud now where they're complex. They have lots of ties into data that you have in your data center. So it's hard to move them sometimes. So with approaches like satellite, you can kind of flip the order. You can bring the cloud in house, if you will. You can start to adopt self-service and API-based consumption and DevOps and change how your teams work and make them more efficient without moving the applications. And then later, if it makes sense to move them, you can, right? And I think that's really powerful. >> Right, right. Briana, I want to go back to you on kind of the nuts and bolts. 'Cause I don't know if you've read "Innovator's Dilemma" by Christian Clayton. You should if you haven't. But one of the things is how do you prioritize what you're building? How do you prioritize your feature stack? Because you have to, right? You have to put one in front of the other, and it's going to drive your design decisions and what you ultimately ship. So as you were thinking about satellite, what were kind of your top-level design priorities that you're really building this towards that you wanted to make sure you really nailed? >> Oh, what a great question. I love that question. I'm so passionate about product and design and I think we take it very seriously at IBM, and it's, we have an amazing design department, if you will, at IBM. And one of the things we do is just relentlessly interview our clients, and we really try to understand what their main issues are. And one of the first use cases that we we looked at was actually in the financial industry, which was, in the financial services industry, the differentiation is really all about the technology itself, and so they're constantly having to innovate at a faster pace so they can bring new features and functions to their clients but they have this dilemma where they have to, in some cases, in many cases, keep the data on-prem in a specific location. And that starts to get really interesting, because sometimes the regulations, it could be country, it could be a compliance thing, but for whatever reason, there is a specific requirement, and sometimes that comes with a fine if that data doesn't reside in that location. So having the ability to move at an incredibly fast pace and keep innovating, but keep that data on-prem and offload the management of Kubernetes and the services that allow them to move fast. That was one of the first use cases that we tackled. And I think that's a pretty important one, because if you can get that right, that starts to permeate all other industries, because you want to, you have to be secure. You have to make sure that the data resides and is on-prem and in a specific location and that it's auditable. So I think that was one of our first use cases, and that has served us really well. We also, one of the things that we do inside of IBM is that we co-develop using our own internal workloads. And so we use the data and AI team within IBM will GA with us when we GA IBM Cloud Satellite, and so their workloads are running on top of satellite. And I think that's a great way to come to market because when you're delivering an MVP, but if you can deliver an MVP that's already running a really complex AI workload, that's a pretty impressive MVP, if you ask me. So we try to do that whenever we release new products, and I think that has served us very well because it really forces us to solve the really hard problems first. We don't have a choice. We have to be able to make some pretty strategic choices upfront to be able to deliver something like that. >> That's great. Jason, I want to go back to you and talk about a little bit beyond the cloud, but things that are really interesting and happening, right? You already talked about this big enabler with containers and Kubernetes, but this next thing that's coming, right, is just edge, which is an extension of the cloud, an outpost to the cloud, but this whole concept of getting outside of the data center but actually now starting to bring the compute to the devices that generate the data as well as need that. How do you see that kind of impacting your cloud thoughts? I love that you're thinking cloud all the time. And the other piece, keying off of what Briana just said, is applied AI, right? I mean, I think we all would agree that AI and machine learning as kind of a standard, generic thing is okay, but really the application of the AI and the machine learning for specific use cases is where we're seeing huge, huge benefit. And I would imagine there's many, many kind of areas within cloud execution that AI and machine learning can start to add even more and more and more efficiencies and automation. >> Sure, sure. So maybe a couple comments. I mean, I think the edge thing is so interesting because if you really kind of step back and think about what we were talking about with cloud, what is a cloud is becoming much more diverse. Started as it's these three regions and it's becoming everybody's data centers plus on-prem, and then it's becoming edge, large edge locations, and then it's becoming devices. So clouds are becoming pervasive as a concept across all IT consumption models. And there's core technologies, even, like containers that we think apply at all those levels. They apply in the core cloud, in the data center, at the edge, in a device. And so things like satellite certainly give us a mechanism to push that boundary, to push closer to the end user. And there's a ton of scenarios motivating that. 5G telecommunications and high-speed networking for mobile devices is necessitating pushing closer to where the data's getting generated. IoT, same thing. If you think about the IoT edge case, that's massive data generation. You don't necessarily want to backhaul that all the way back to a central cloud. You want to be able to do AI and training and inferencing on that data close to where it lives. And so you need this whole idea of cloud to kind of expand, and if it doesn't, then what happens is all of these different use cases become like different technology stacks or different operational models and you get tons of complexity. So it's this really interesting intersection, and I think we're getting much more complex in how we deploy, but we're trying to put common ideas over the top of it to simplify, and I think that's pretty interesting. On the AI question, you're right, there's tons of places where AI, applied AI will come into the picture. At IBM, we're doing a ton of work on AI for IT operations and how do we apply AI modeling to monitoring, to resiliency, even to workload placement. I mean, just think about the world we just described. As a customer, maybe I have IBM cloud and I have 20 satellite locations in all our fun places in the world, and now I have to make decisions about what runs where and where should I deploy my workloads and what's the most efficient way to place workloads to get availability or better performance, and AI plays a role there. So I see a really bright future as we build out this infrastructure to then use AI as a mechanism to further simplify the customer's consumption of cloud. >> Yeah, that's great. So I want to give you both the last word before we sign off, and that was a good summary, Jason. Cloud's been around for a while and it gets tossed around, and again, now we have hybrid and multi and all these different flavors. You guys are in the weeds and you're seeing down the road a little bit. What is it about cloud that most people probably aren't talking about when you kind of look in your crystal ball, obviously don't share any secrets that you can't share, that gets you excited and makes you think, wow, we're still really, hard to believe, but really in the early days of what this really, the kind of opportunities that this opens up. And I'll go with you first, Briana. >> Well, that's a great question. I think we're already starting to see that with the example of all of the work that we're seeing in the COVID space. It just feels like whatever challenge that might lie ahead in our future, we have an ability to quickly iterate and change and adapt. It's so interesting to see how fast we can roll out new technologies and new ideas. Things that would take years to put together you can kind of put together in a week or so with a quick POC. And that's really an exciting kind of place to be that you can adapt and change so quickly. So I think that's one. And I do think your point about edge is really an important one. There's more and more opportunities to distribute workloads closer to, compute goes closer to where the users are, so therefore you're reducing latency, so you're getting instant feedback. And I think that's really going to be interesting. And then I think the third element, again, is like security and compliance. How do you know exactly that your data stays exactly where you want it to, and you can have proof and you can audit that data. I think that's really where the future's headed. >> Yeah, that's great. And Jason, to you, what's getting you up in the morning today? >> Oh, you don't want to know what gets me up today. But if we talk about what's coming, so for me, my whole career, I've really been thinking about applications. And I think one of the kind of macro trends that everyone doesn't always see that's going on in cloud is we're switching from an IT infrastructure-centric view of computing to an application-centric view. And all of these things we've been talking about are kind of steps along that journey. We're getting to a point where I can build applications, I can build them in a consistent way, I can deploy them anywhere in the world on this incredibly diverse infrastructure. As a developer, I have simple, immediate access to world-class capabilities, to specialized hardware. We are really in the midst of a transformation on how we build computing technology and really a democratization of that technology that 10 or 15 years ago you wouldn't have had the, most people would not have had the funds to stand up the technology they needed to build these things. And that's what really gets me excited, because I think about, well, then what's all the innovation that's going to come from that? As more and more developers have access to this powerful infrastructure in these diverse ways, what are they going to create? And that's what's, I think, going on under the covers. I think we're in the middle of a generational transformation of technology that will result in things we can't predict today because we'll open up so many people's ability to leverage that platform. >> What a great thought to close on, Jason, 'cause I think we hear that consistently all the time. What's the key to innovation? Give more people the access to the tools, give more people access to the data and more people the power to do something with it and create. And we hear all the time about the disadvantaged classes of people that just didn't get the opportunity, and if all those people had the same school, the same education, and now the same basically infinite compute power at their disposal, what are they going to invent? And I think it's an exciting future, and I think that's a great place to close. So we'll leave it at that. I want to thank you both for checking in. Briana, great to meet you, and Jason, always good to see you, as well. >> Yeah, nice to meet you. >> Yeah, great to be here, thank you. >> All right, thanks a lot and have a great day. >> Thank you. >> All right, that was Briana and Jason. I'm Jeff. You're watching theCUBE. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time. (bright music)

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of biz ops Manifesto unveiled Brought to you by Biz Ops Coalition >>Hey, Welcome back, everybody. Jeffrey here with the Cube. Welcome back to our ongoing coverage of the biz. Opps manifesto Unveil Something has been in the works for a little while. Today's a formal unveiling and we're excited to have three of the core founding members of the manifesto Authors of the manifesto, if you will joining us again. We've had them all on individually. Now we're gonna have a great power panel. First up, we have met Kirsten returning. He's the founder and CEO of Task Top make good to see again. Where you dialing in from? >>Great to see you again, Jeff. I'm dialing from Vancouver, Canada. >>Vancouver, Canada. One of my favorite cities in the whole wide world. Also, we've got Tom Davenport coming from across the country. He's a distinguished professor and author from Babson College. Tom, great to see. And I think you said you're a fund Exotic place on the East Coast. >>Falmouth, Massachusetts, on Cape Cod. >>Nice. Great to see you again. And also joining surge. Lucio. He is the VP and general manager Enterprise Software division at Broadcom Surge. Great to see you again. Where you coming in from? >>From Boston. Right next to kick off. Terrific. >>So welcome back, everybody again. Congratulations. On this day I know it's It's been a lot of work to get here for this unveil, but let's just jump into it. Biz Opps Manifesto What was the initial reason to do this? And how did you decide to do it in a kind of a coalition way, bringing together a group of people versus just making it an internal company, uh, initiative that, you know, you could do better stuff within your own company Surge. Why don't we start with you? >>Yeah, so? So I think we are really a critical juncture, right? Many large enterprises are basically struggling with their digital transformation. In fact, many recognized that the the Business Society collaboration has been one of the major impediments to drive that kind of transformation. And if we look at the industry today, many people or whether we're talking about vendors or system integrators, consulting firms are talking about the same kind of concepts but using very different language. And so we believe that bringing a lot these different players together assed part of the coalition and formalizing, uh, basically the core principles and values in a busy office manifesto. We can really start to have kind of a much bigger movement where we can all talk about kind of the same concepts. And we can really start to provide kind of a much better support for large organizations to transform eso, whether it is technology or services or trading. I think that that's really the value of bringing all of these players together >>and Mick to you. Why did you get involved in this in this effort? >>So I've been closely involved the actual movement since it started two decades ago with that manifesto, and I think we got a lot of improvement at the team level. And I think, as started just noted, we really need to improving. At the business level, every companies trying to become a software innovator trying to make sure that they can pick them, adapt quickly in the changing market economy and what everyone's dealing with in terms of needing to deliver value to customers. Sooner. However, agile practices have really focused that these metrics these measures and understanding processes that help teams be productive. Those things now need to be elevated to the business as a whole, and that just hasn't happened. Organizations are agile. Transmissions are actually failing because they're measuring activities and how they're becoming more agile. Have teams air functioning, not how much quickly they're delivering value to the customer. So we need to now move. Asked that. And that's exactly what the buzz off there's also manifested. Provides, >>right? Right And Tom to you. You've been covering tech for a very long time. You've been looking at really hard challenges and and a lot of work around analytics and data on data evolution. So there's a definitely a data angle here. I wonder if you kind of share your perspective of of what you got excited Thio to sign on to this manifesto? >>Sure. Well, I have. You know, for the past 15 or 20 years, I've been focusing on Data Analytics and AI. But before that, I was a process management guy and a knowledge management guy and a in general. I think, you know, we've just kind of optimized at too narrow a level. Whether you're talking about agile or Dev ops or, um, ml ops. Any of these kind of obs oriented movements, we're making individual project, um, performance and productivity better, But we're not changing the business effectively enough. And that's the thing that appealed to me about the biz ops idea that we're finally creating a closer connection between what we do with technology and how it changes the business and provides value to it. >>That's great, uh, surge back to you, right? I mean, people have been talking about digital transformation for a long time, and it's been, you know, kind of trucking along. And then Cove it hit, and it was instant lights, which everyone's working from home. You've got a lot more reliance on your digital tools, digital communication both within your customer base and your partner base, but also then you're employees. When if you could share how that really pushed this all along, right, because now suddenly the acceleration of digital transformation is higher. Even more importantly, you've got much more critical decisions to make into what you do next. So kind of your portfolio management of projects has been elevated significantly. When maybe revenues are down on. Do you really have Thio prioritize and get it right? >>Yeah. I mean, I'll just start by quoting city An Adele basically recently said that there's bean two years of digital transformation just last two months, and in many ways that's true. Um, but But yet when we look at large enterprises, they're still struggling with kind of a changes in culture that they really need Thio drive to be able to describe themselves. And not surprisingly, you know, when we look at certain parts of the industry, you know, we see some things which are very disturbing, right. About 40% of the personal loans today are being origin dated by Finn tax of a like of Sophie or or ah Lendingclub, right, Not your traditional brick and worked for bank. And so the while there is kind of ah, much more of an appetite, and it's it's more of a survival type driver these days. The reality is that in order for these large enterprises to truly transform and engage on these digital transformation, they need to start to really aligned the business 90 you know, in many ways and make cover that actually really emerge from the court desire to really improve software predictability, but we've which we have really missed is all the way. Start to aligning the software predictability to business predictability and to be able to have continuously continuous improvement and measurement off business outcomes. So by lining, but of this dis kind of inward metrics that I t is typically being using to business outcomes, we think we can start to really help different stakeholders within the organization to collaborate. So I think there is more than ever. There is an imperative to act now, um, and and results. I think it's kind of the right approach to drive that kind of transformation, >>right? I want to follow up on the culture comment with Utah because you've talked before about kind of process, flow and process flow throughout a whore, unorganized ation. And, you know, we talk about people process and tech all the time, and I think the tech is the easy part compared to actually changing the people the way they think and then the actual processes that they put in place. It's a much more difficult issue than just a tech issue to get this digital transformation in your organization. >>Yeah, you know, I've always found that the soft stuff the you know, the culture of the behavior of the values is the hard stuff to change and mawr and mawr. We we realized that to be successful with any kind of digital transformation, you have tow change, people's behaviors and attitudes. Um, we haven't made much progress in that area as we might have. I mean, I've done some surveys suggesting that most organizations still don't have data driven cultures, and in many cases, there is a lower percentage of companies that say they have that then did a few years ago. So we're kind of moving in the wrong direction, which means I think that we have to start explicitly addressing that cultural behavioral dimension and not just assuming that it will happen if we if we build a system, you know, if if we build it, they won't necessarily come right, >>right? So I want to go toe to you, Nick, because, you know, we're talking about work flows and flow. Andi, you've written about flow both in terms of, you know, moving things along a process and trying to find bottlenecks, identify bottlenecks which is now even more important again when these decisions are much more critical because you have a lot less ah, wiggle room in tough times. But you also talked about flow from the culture side on the people's side. So I wonder if you could just share your thoughts on, you know, using flow as a way to think about things to get the answers better? >>Yeah, absolutely. And I'll refer back to what Tom just said. If you're optimize, you need to optimize your system. You need to optimize how you innovate and how you deliver value to the business into the customer. Now what we've noticed in the data since that that we've learned from customers value streams, enterprise organizations, value streams is that what's taking six months and to and to deliver that value, the flow is that slow. You've got a bunch of unhappy developers. Unhappy customers, when you're innovating, have so high performing organizations we can measure their intent flow time in days. All of a sudden, that feedback loop the satisfaction your developers measurably goes up. So not only do you have people context switching last year, delivering so much more value to customers at a lower cost because you've optimized for flow rather than optimizing for these thes other approximately six that we use, which is how efficient my annual team. How quickly can we deploy software? Those are important, but they do not provide the value of agility, of fast learning, of adaptability, of the business. And that's exactly what the bishops manifesto pushes your organization to. You need to put in place this new operate model that's based on flow on the delivery of business value and on bringing value to market much more quickly than you were before, >>right? I love that. I'm gonna go back to Utah, him on that to follow up, because I think I don't think people think enough about how they prioritize what they're optimizing for. Because, you know, if you're optimizing for a vs B, you know you could have a very different product that that you kick out. You know, my favorite example with With Clayton Christensen and Innovator's Dilemma talking about the three inch our drive, if you optimize it for power, you know, is one thing. If you optimize it for vibration is another thing, and sure enough, you know they missed it on the Palm because it was the it was the game council which which drove that whole business. So when you're talking to customers and we think we're here with cloud all the time people optimizing for cost efficiency instead of thinking about it as an innovation tool, how do you help them? Kind of rethink and really, you know, forced them to to look at the at the prioritization and make sure they're prioritizing on the right thing is make just that. What do you optimizing for? >>Oh yeah, you have one of the most important aspects of any decision or attempt to resolve a problem in an organization is the framing process. And, um, you know, it's it's a difficult aspect toe of the decision toe frame it correctly in the first place. Um, there. It's not a technology issue. In many cases, it's largely a human issue. But if you frame that decision or that problem incorrectly too narrowly, say, or you frame it as an either or situation when you could actually have some of both, um, it's very difficult for the process toe work out correctly. So in many cases, I think we need to think mawr at the beginning about how we frame this issue or this decision in the best way possible before we charge off and build a system to support it. You know, it's worth that extra time to think. Think carefully about how the decision has been structured. Right? >>Surge. I wanna go back to you and talk about the human factors because we just discussed you could put in great technology. But if the culture doesn't adopt it and people don't feel good about it, you know it's not gonna be successful. And that's going to reflect poorly on the technology. Even if I had nothing to do with it. And you know, when you look at the core values of the best hopes manifesto, you know a big one is trust and collaboration. You know, learn, responded pivot. Wonder if you can share your thoughts on trying to get that cultural shift s so that you can have success with the people or excuse me with the technology in the process and helping customers, you know, take this more trustworthy and kind of proactive position. >>So I think I think at the ground level, it really starts with the realization that we were all different. We come from different backgrounds. Oftentimes we tend Thio. Blame the data. It's not uncommon my experience that we spend the first, you know, 30 minutes of any kind of one hour the conversation to debate the ability of the data on DSO, one of the first kind of probably manifestations that we've had. Our revelations as we start to engage with our customers is by just exposing high Fidelity data set two different stakeholders from their different lands. We start to enable these different stakeholders to not debate the data, but that's really collaborate to find a solution. So in many ways, when when when we think about kind of the types of changes were trying Thio truly affect around data driven decision making? It's all about bringing the data in context the context that is relevant and understandable for different stakeholders. Whether we're talking about an operator developed for a business analyst, so that's that's the first thing. The second layer, I think, is really to provide context to what people are doing in their specific silo. So I think one of the best examples I have is if you start to be able to align business k p i. Whether you are accounting, you know, with sales per hour or the engagement of your users on your mobile application, whatever it is, if you start to connect that k p I business K p I to the key piece that developers might be looking at, whether it is now the number of defects or velocity or whatever over metrics that they are used to to actually track, you start to be able to actually contextual eyes in what we are. The affecting, basically metric that that is really relevant. And what we see is that this is a much more systematic way to approach the transformation than say, You know, some organizations kind of creating some of these new products or services or initiatives to to drive engagement, right? So, you know, if you look at zoom, for instance, Zoom giving away, it's service thio education is all about. I mean, there's obviously a marketing aspect in there, but it's it's fundamentally about trying to drive also the engagement of their own teams and because now they're doing something for good, and many organizations are trying to do that. But you only can do this kind of things in a limited way. And so you really want to start to rethink? Oh, you connect everybody kind of business objective fruit data. And I always start to get people to stare at the same data from their own lands and collaborating on the data. Right? >>Right. That's good. Uh, Tom, I want to go back to you. You've been studying I t for a long time writing lots of books and and getting into it. Um, Why now? You know what? Why now? Are we finally aligning business objectives with objects? You know, why didn't this happen before? And, you know, what are the factors that are making now? The time for this. This this move with the with the biz ops. >>Well, in much of the past, I t waas sort of a back office related activity. You know, it was important for, um, producing your paychecks and, uh, capturing the customer orders, but the business wasn't built around it. Now, every organization needs to be a software business of data business. A digital business. The anti has been raised considerably. And if you aren't making that connection between your business objectives and the technology that supports it. You run a pretty big risk of, you know, going out of business or losing out to competitors. Totally so. And even if you're in a new industry that hasn't historically been terribly, um, technology oriented customer expectations flow from, you know, the digital native companies that they work with to basically every industry. So you're compared against the best in the world. So we don't really have the luxury anymore of screwing up our I T projects or building things that don't really work for the business. Um, it's mission critical that we do that well, almost every time, >>right. And I just I just wanna fall by that time, in terms of the you've talked extensively about kind of these evolutions of data analytics, from artisanal stage to the big data stage, the data economy stage the ai driven stage. What I find interesting about all the stages you always put a start date. You never put it in date. Um, so you know, is the is the big data. I'm just gonna use that generically moment in time. Finally, here. Where were, you know, off mahogany row with the data scientists, But actually could start to see the promise of delivering the right insight to the right person at the right time to make that decision. >>Well, I think it is true that in general, these previous stages never seem to go away. The three artisanal stuff is still being done, but we would like for less and less of it to be artisanal. We can't really afford for everything to be artisanal anymore. It's too labor and time consuming to do things that way. So we shift Mawr and Mawr of it to be done through automation and be to be done with a higher level of productivity. And, um, you know, at some point maybe we we reached the stage where we don't do anything artisanal e anymore. I'm not sure we're there yet, but, you know, we are We are making progress, >>right? Right. And make back to you in terms of looking at agile because you're you're such a student of agile. When when you look at the opportunity with biz ops, um, and taking the lessons from agile, you know what's been the inhibitor to stop this in the past. And what are you so excited about? you know, taking this approach will enable >>Yeah, I think both surgeon Tom hit on this. Is that in agile? What's happened is that we've been, you know, measuring tiny subsets of the value stream, right? We need to elevate the data's there, developers air working on these tools of delivering features. The foundations for for great culture are there. I spent two decades as a developer, and when I was really happy when I was able to deliver value to customers, the quicker is able to do that. The fewer impediments are in my way, the quicker was deployed and running the cloud, the happier I waas and that's exactly what's happening if we could just get the right data elevated to the business, not just to the agile teams, but really these values of ours are to make sure that you've got these data driven decisions with meaningful data that's oriented and delivering value to customers. None of these legacies that Tom touched on, which has cost center metrics from a nightie, came from where for I t being a cost center and something that provided email on back office systems. So we need thio rapidly shift to those new, meaningful metrics, their customer and business centric. And make sure that every development organization is focused on those as well as the business itself that we're measuring value. And they were helping that value flow without interruption. >>I love that because if you don't measure it, you can't improve on it. And you gotta but you gotta be measuring the right thing. So, gentlemen, thank you again for for your time. Uh, congratulations on the on the unveil of the biz ops manifesto and bringing together this coalition of industry experts to get behind this. And, you know, there's probably never been a more important time than now to make sure that your prioritization is in the right spot. And you're not wasting resource is where you're not gonna get the r. O. I. So, uh, congratulations again. And thank you for sharing your thoughts with us here on the Cube. Thank >>you. All >>right, So we have surged. Tom and Mick. I'm Jeff. You're watching the Cube. It's a biz ops manifesto unveiled. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time. Yeah,

>> Announcer: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with digital coverage of BizOps Manifesto Unveiled, brought to you by BizOps Coalition. >> Hey, welcome back, everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE for our ongoing coverage of the big unveil. It's the BizOps Manifesto Unveil and we're going to start that again. >> From the top. >> Three. >> Crew Member: Yeah, from the top. Little bleep bleep bleep, there we go. >> Manifesto. >> Crew Member: Second time's the charm, coming to you in five, four, three, two. >> Hey, welcome back, everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE coming to you from our Palo Alto studios today for a big, big reveal. We're excited to be here. It's the BizOps Manifesto Unveiling. Things have been in the works for a while and we're excited to have our next guest, one of the really the powers behind this whole effort and he's joining us from Boston. It's Serge Lucio, the Vice President and General Manager, Enterprise Software Division at Broadcom. Serge, great to see you. >> Good to see you, Jeff, Glad to be here. >> Absolutely. So, you've been in this business for a very long time, you've seen a lot of changes in technology. What is the BizOps Manifesto? What is this coalition all about? Why do we need this today in 2020? >> Yeah, so I've been in this business for close to 25 years, right? So, about 20 years ago, the Agile Manifesto was created. And the goal of the Agile Manifesto was really to address the uncertainty around software development and the inability to predict the effort to build software. And if you roll back kind of 20 years later and if you look at the current state of the industry, the Project Management Institute estimates that we're wasting about a million dollars every 20 seconds in digital transformation initiatives that do not deliver on business results. In fact, we recently surveyed a number of executives in partnership with Harvard Business Review and 77% of those executives think that one of the key challenges that they have is really at the collaboration between business and IT. And that's been kind of the case for almost 20 years now. So, the key challenge we're faced with is really that we need a new approach. And many of the players in the industry, including ourselves, have been using different terms, right? Some are talking about value stream management, some are talking about software delivery management. If you look at the Site Reliability Engineering movement, in many ways, it embodies a lot of these kind of concepts and principles. So, we believe that it became really imperative for us to crystallize around that one concept. And so, in many ways, the BizOps concept and the BizOps Manifesto are around bringing together a number of ideas which have been emerging in the last five years or so and defining the key values and principles to finally help these organizations truly transform and become digital businesses. And so, the hope is that by joining our forces and defining the key principles and values, we can help the industry, not just by providing them with support, but also the tools and consulting that is required for them to truly achieve the kind of transformation that everybody is seeking. >> Right, right. So, COVID, now, we're six months into it approximately, seven months into it, a lot of pain, a lot of bad stuff still happening, we've got two ways to go. But one of the things that on the positive side, right, and you seen all the memes in social media is a driver of digital transformation and a driver of change 'cause we had this light switch moment in the middle of March and there was no more planning, there was no more conversation, you suddenly got remote workforces, everybody's working from home and you got to go, right? So, the reliance on these tools increases dramatically. But I'm curious kind of short of the beginnings of this effort and short of kind of COVID which came along unexpectedly, I mean, what were those inhibitors 'cause we've been making software for a very long time, right? The software development community has adopted kind of rapid change and iterative delivery and sprints, what was holding back the connection with the business side to make sure that those investments were properly aligned with outcomes? >> Well, you have to understand that IT is kind of its own silos and traditionally, IT has been treated as a cost center within large organizations and not as a value center. And so as a result, kind of the traditional dynamic between IT and the business is basically one of kind of supplier up to kind of a business. And if you go back to I think Elon Musk a few years ago basically had these concepts of the machines to build the machines and he went as far as saying that the machines or the production line is actually the product. So, meaning that the core of the innovation is really about building kind of the engine to deliver on the value. And so, in many ways, we have missed on this shift from kind of IT becoming this kind of value center within the enterprises. And it's all about culture. Now, culture is the sum total of behaviors and the reality is that if you look at IT, especially in the last decade, with Agile, with DevOps, with hybrid infrastructures, it's way more volatile today than it was 10 years ago. And so, when you start to look at the velocity of the data, the volume of data, the variety of data to analyze the system, it's very challenging for IT to actually even understand and optimize its own processes, let alone to actually include business as kind of an integral part of a delivery chain. And so, it's both kind of a combination of culture, which is required, as well as tools, right? To be able to start to bring together all these data together. And then, given the volume, variety, velocity of the data, we have to apply some core technologies, which have only really truly emerged in the last five to 10 years around machine learning and analytics. And so, it's really kind of a combination of those things, which are coming together today to really help organizations kind of get to the next level. >> Right, right. So, let's talk about the manifesto. Let's talk about the coalition, the BizOps Coalition. I just like that you put down these really simple kind of straightforward core values. You guys have four core values that you're highlighting, business outcomes over individual projects and outputs, trust and collaboration over siloed teams and organizations, data driven decisions, what you just talked about, over opinions and judgment and learn to respond and pivot. I mean, Serge, these sounds like pretty basic stuff, right? I mean, isn't everyone working to these values already? And I think you touched on it, on culture, right? Trust and collaboration, data driven decisions. I mean, these are fundamental ways that people must run their business today or the person that's across the street that's doing it is going to knock them right off their block. >> Yeah, so that's very true. So, I'll mention another survey we did I think about six months ago. It was in partnership with an industry analyst. And we surveyed, again, a number of IT executives to understand how many were tracking business outcomes, how many of these software executives, IT executives were tracking business outcomes. And there were less than 15% of these executives who were actually tracking the outcomes of the software delivery. And you see that every day, right? So, in my own teams, for instance, we've been adopting a lot of these core principles in the last year or so. And we've uncovered that 16% of our resources were basically aligned around initiatives which were not strategic for us. I take another example. For instance, one of our customers in the airline industry uncovered, for instance, that a number of... That they had software issues that led to people searching for flights and not returning any kind of availability. And yet, the IT teams, whether it's operations or software development, were completely oblivious to that because they were completely blindsided to it. And so, the connectivity between the inwards metrics that IT is using, whether it's database uptime, cycle time or whatever metric we use in IT, are typically completely divorced from the business metrics. And so, at its core, it's really about starting to align the business metrics with the software delivery chain, right? This system which is really a core differentiator for these organizations. It's about connecting those two things and starting to infuse some of the Agile culture and principles that emerge from the software side into the business side. Of course, the Lean movement and other movements have started to change some of these dynamic on the business side. And so, I think this is the moment where we are starting to see kind of the imperative to transform now, COVID obviously has been a key driver for that. The technology is right to start to be able to weave data together and really kind of also the cultural shifts through Agile, through DevOps, through the SRE movement, through Lean business transformation. All these things are coming together and are really creating kind of conditions for the BizOps Manifesto to exist. So, Clayton Christensen, great Harvard Professor, "Innovator's Dilemma", still my all-time favorite business book, talks about how difficult it is for incumbents to react to disruptive change, right? Because they're always working on incremental change 'cause that's what their customers are asking for and there's a good ROI.' When you talk about companies not measuring the right thing, I mean, clearly, IT has some portion of their budget that has to go to keeping the lights on, right? That's always the case, but hopefully, that's an ever decreasing percentage of their total activity. So, what should people be measuring? I mean, what are kind of the new metrics in BizOps that drive people to be looking at the right things, measuring the right things and subsequently making the right decisions, investment decisions, on whether they should move project A along or project B? >> So, there are really two things, right? So, I think what you were talking about is portfolio management, investment management, right? And which is a key challenge, right? In my own experience, right? Driving strategy or a large scale kind of software organization for years, it's very difficult to even get kind of a base data as to who's doing what. I mean, some of our largest customers we're engaged with right now are simply trying to get a very simple answer, which is, how many people do I have in that specific initiative at any point in time and just tracking down information is extremely difficult. And again, back to the Project Management Institute, they have estimated that on average, IT organizations have anywhere between 10 to 20% of their resources focused on initiatives which are not strategically aligned. So, that's one dimension on portfolio management. I think the key aspect though, that's we're really keen on is really around kind of the alignment of a business metrics to the IT metrics. So, I'll use kind of two simple examples, right? And my background is around quality and I've always believed that fitness for purpose is really kind of a key philosophy, if you will. And so, if you start to think about quality as fitness for purpose, you start to look at it from a customer point of view, right? And fitness for purpose for a core banking application or mobile application are different, right? So, the definition of a business value that you're trying to achieve is different. And yet, if you look at our IT operations are operating, they were using kind of a same type of inward metrics, like a database uptime or a cycle time or what is my point velocity, right? And so, the challenge really is this inward facing metrics that the IT is using which are divorced from ultimately the outcome. And so, if I'm trying to build a core banking application, my core metric is likely going to be uptime, right? If I'm trying to build a mobile application or maybe a social mobile app, it's probably going to be engagement. And so, what you want is for everybody across IT to look at these metric and what are the metrics within the software delivery chain which ultimately contribute to that business metric? In some cases, cycle time may be completely irrelevant, right? Again, my core banking app, maybe I don't care about cycle time. And so, it's really about aligning those metrics and be able to start to differentiate. The key challenge you mentioned around the disruption that we see is or the investor's dilemma is really around the fact that many IT organizations are essentially applying the same approaches for innovation, right? For basically scrap work than they would apply to kind of other more traditional projects. And so, there's been a lot of talk about two-speed IT. And yes, it exists, but in reality, are really organizations truly differentiating how they operate their projects and products based on the outcomes that they're trying to achieve? And this is really where BizOps is trying to affect. >> I love that. Again, it doesn't seem like brain surgery, but focus on the outcomes, right? And it's horses for courses, as you said. This project, what you're measuring and how you define success isn't necessarily the same as on this other project. So, let's talk about some of the principles. We talked about the values, but I think it's interesting that the BizOps coalition just basically took the time to write these things down and they don't seem all that super insightful, but I guess you just got to get them down and have them on paper and have them in front of your face. But I want to talk about one of the key ones, which you just talked about, which is changing requirements, right? And working in a dynamic situation, which is really what's driven the software to change in software development because if you're in a game app and your competitor comes out with a new blue sword, you got to come out with a new blue sword. So, whether you had that on your Kanban wall or not. So, it's really this embracing of the speed of change and making that the rule, not the exception. I think that's a phenomenal one. And the other one you talked about is data, right? And that today's organizations generate more data than humans can process. So, informed decisions must be generated by machine learning and AI. And the big data thing with Hadoop started years ago, but we are seeing more and more that people are finally figuring it out, that it's not just big data and it's not even generic machine learning or artificial intelligence, but it's applying those particular data sets and that particular types of algorithms to a specific problem to your point, to try to actually reach an objective, whether that's increasing your average ticket or increasing your checkout rate with shopping carts that don't get left behind and these types of things. So, it's a really different way to think about the world in the good old days, probably when you guys started when we had big giant MRDs and PRDS and sat down and coded for two years and came out with a product release and hopefully, not too many patches subsequently to that. >> It's interesting, right? Again, back to one of these surveys that we did with about 600 IT executives. And we purposely designed those questions to be pretty open. And one of them was really around requirements. And it was really around kind of what is the best approach? What is your preferred approach towards requirements? And if I remember correctly, over 80% of the IT executives said that the best approach, their preferred approach, is for requirements to be completely defined before software development starts. So, let me pause there. We're 20 years after the Agile Manifesto, right? And for 80% of these IT executives to basically claim that the best approach is for requirements to be fully baked before software development starts, basically shows that we still have a very major issue. And again, our hypothesis in working with many organizations is that the key challenge is really the boundary between business and IT, which is still very much contract-based. If you look at the business side, they basically are expecting for IT to deliver on time on budget, right? But what is the incentive for IT to actually deliver on the business outcomes, right? How often is IT measured on the business outcomes and not on an SLA or on a budget type criteria. And so, that's really the fundamental shift that we really need to drive out as an industry. And, we talk about kind of this imperative for organizations to operate as one. And back to the the "Innovator's Dilemma", the key difference between these larger organization is really kind of a... If you look at the amount of capital investment that they can put into pretty much anything, why are they losing compared to startups? Why is it that more than 40% of personal loans today are issued, not by your traditional brick and mortar banks, but by startups? Well, the reason, yes, it's the traditional culture of doing incremental changes and not disrupting ourselves, which Christensen covered at length, but it's also the inability to really fundamentally change kind of the dynamic between business and IT and partner, right? To deliver on a specific business outcome. >> Right, I love that. That's a great summary and in fact, getting ready for this interview, I saw you mentioning another thing where the problem with the Agile development is that you're actually now getting more silos 'cause you have all these autonomous people working kind of independently. So, it's even a harder challenge for the business leaders, as you said, to know what's actually going on. But Serge, I want to close and talk about the coalition. So clearly, these are all great concepts. These are concepts you want to apply to your business every day. Why the coalition? Why take these concepts out to a broader audience, including your competition and the broader industry to say, "Hey, we as a group need to put a stamp of approval on these concepts, these values, these principles?" >> So first, I think we want everybody to realize that we are all talking about the same things, the same concepts. I think we're all from our own different vantage point realizing that things have to change. And again, back to whether it's value stream management or Site Reliability Engineering or BizOps, we're all kind of using slightly different languages. And so, I think one of the important aspects of BizOps is for us, all of us, whether we're talking about consulting, Agile transformation experts, whether we're talking about vendors, right? To provides kind of tools and technologies or these large enterprises to transform for all of us to basically have kind of a reference that lets us speak around kind of in a much more consistent way. The second aspect, to me, is for these concepts to start to be embraced, not just by us or vendors, system integrators, consulting firms, educators, thought leaders, but also for some of our own customers to start to become evangelists of their own in the industry. So, our objective with the coalition is to be pretty, pretty broad. And our hope is by starting to basically educate our joint customers or partners, that we can start to really foster these behaviors and start to really change some of dynamics. So, we're very pleased that if you look at some of the companies which have joined the manifesto, so we have vendors, such as Tasktop, or Appvance or PagerDuty, for instance, or even Planview, one of my direct competitors, but also thought leaders like Tom Davenport or Capgemini or smaller firms like Business Agility Institute or AgilityHealth. And so, our goal really is to start to bring together thought leaders, people who've been helping large organizations do digital transformation, vendors who are providing the technologies that many of these organizations use to deliver on this digital transformation and for all of us to start to provide the kind of education, support and tools that the industry needs. >> Yeah, that's great, Serge, and congratulations to you and the team. I know this has been going on for a while, putting all this together, getting people to sign on to the manifesto, putting the coalition together and finally today, getting to unveil it to the world in a little bit more of a public opportunity. So again, really good values, really simple principles, something that shouldn't have to be written down, but it's nice 'cause it is and now you can print it out and stick it on your wall. So, thank you for sharing the story and again, congrats to you and the team. >> Thank you, thanks, Jeff, appreciate it. >> My pleasure, all righty, Serge. If you want to learn more about the BizOps Manifesto, go to bizopsmanifesto.org, read it and you can sign it and you can stay here for more coverage on theCUBE of the BizOps Manifesto Unveiled. Thanks for watching, see you next time. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE conversation. >> Hey welcome back everybody, Jeff Frick here with theCUBE we're in our Palo Alto studio, it's still 2020, we're still gettin' through the COVID crisis and we're still reaching out to our community really to talk to leaders who have lead through difficult times, led through transitions, and really go out to the experts and get some advice from people who have been around the block a few times, and I'm really, really excited to have one of my all time favorite business executives joining us, I haven't talked to him in years and years and almost decades, David Pottruck is joining us, he is formerly the CEO of Schwab, how he kind of made his name, now he's an author, he's teaching at the Wharton School, he's a New York Times best selling author and he's also the chairman of Red Eagle Ventures, David, great to see you. >> Thanks, Jeff, it's good to be with you today. >> Absolutely, so before we get in, just to check in, how are you doing, how are you gettin' through 2020, I can't believe we're already on the backside of this crazy year. >> Well, it's been a pretty challenging year as you know, and we've seen companies learn to operate in a virtual world. Zoom has been one of the huge beneficiaries, but technology companies in general, the whole FAANG group of Facebook, Amazon, Netflix and such, they've all benefited from people getting more virtual, and one of the non profits I'm involved with sends out videos to schools on social and emotional learning and that's seen a big uptick. So, the world is changing, and changing in very substantial ways, and I don't think we'll ever go back to the way it was in total, we will go back to having face to face meetings, of course, but I do think that operating virtually and doing more things remotely, remote business meetings over zoom are going to be a fixed part of the future, >> Right, right. >> At least in my opinion. >> So, the reason I wanted to reach out to you is you've managed through some crazy transitions and some crazy disruptions back in the day and for a lot of the young people that don't remember, there was a time before we did everything online. There was a time where you had a broker and you called him on the phone and you paid a pretty big price based on a percentage of the transactions. You were at Schwab in the late 90s when this new thing called the internet came along, and these new things called internet only businesses to compete with you, I wonder if you can kind of take us back as you started to see some of these new kinds of threats, coming not necessarily from people that you recognize from up and down the street, but people who are coming over horizons that you've never ever seen before. And how did you start to get a feel for hmm, the landscapes a changin'. >> You know it's really funny to look back that there actually was a day when something called the internet didn't exist. And, there was no connectivity, there was no internet. We were, of course, at that time a telephone based brokerage firm, what used to be called discount brokers. We don't use that phrase very much anymore at Schwab, but, we were a telephone based discount broker, and the internet popped up and started becoming commercialized, and some online only brokerage firms popped up. And these firms didn't have call centers, they didn't have branch offices, if you wanted to do a trade you did it over your computer, online, and the pricing was dramatically less. To give you some idea, to buy 100 shares of IBM, Merrill Lynch would have charged you $250, for that one trade, Schwab would have charged you $80 and E-Trade would have charged you $25. So, we were much cheaper than Merrill Lynch, but E-Trade was much cheaper than us. So, we were, at the time, we were worried about is there enough security on the internet, can we do trades. We have a reputation to protect, a brand new company they don't have a reputation to protect, we have customer security, we have a reputation to protect. Well, we started doing online trades, and the way we did it was we gave all of our customers a 20% discount on our normal pricing, so instead of charging 80-something dollars, you paid something like $60. So, it was a nice discount, customers liked it, they were doing online trades, and we're seeing that is just taking off, it's getting huge, and we're getting great press, the analysts love it, Wall Street loves it, we're a public company and it's going great, but of course at the same time I'm getting, a basket full of letters and emails from our customers saying "why can't you do trades for $25 like E-Trade? Why are they able to do an online trade for $25 and you're charging $65? I thought you stood for value, I thought you guys wanted to be the best value for the money." So, I'm in this dilemma where Wall Street doesn't see these letters, they don't get reported, I see them, and there dozens and then hundreds, and then thousands. >> Wow. >> We had millions of customers, so to get a thousand letters or emails in a month that's very possible. And so I go to Chuck with this and I said you know, I think we need to make a change because no great company was built on the back of unhappy customers. >> Right, right. But you know, it's so funny, not funny, I'm sure it was a huge challenge in the moment, but you know, Clayton Christensen's another one of my favorite business leaders and why I like him so much, and rest in peace he passed earlier this year, is his very simple statement in "The Innovator's Dilemma" that smart people making sound business decisions based on their customer feedback will always miss discontinuous change. You were right in the middle of this thing and you had to get discontinuous change and it's funny, you've mentioned quite a bit in some of your other conversations about looking for faint signals, well this was not a faint signal, this was pretty much, sounds like came up and banged you over the head. So, how do you make and convince the rest of the people of the team that this is kind of a short-term pain but it's a long-term gain, really thinking about this long-term relationship with our customers, even though it's going to cost us on a per transaction basis in the short-term. >> Well, I had our financial staff run some models, and show me what would be the impact if we reduced our pricing from 60 something dollars a trade to $29 a trade, and the assumption of more and more trades moving to the internet. We also had a model into that the fact that people trade a little more when prices go down, costs go down cause I don't have the cost of someone answering the telephone, so there were some benefits, and I had to run the math to understand how long would it take us to go through the trough to get to the other side. A big important part of this is modeling the numbers. You don't just make this decision as a public company and just hope for the best >> Jeff: Right. >> You need to model it out, you need to run math and say how long will it take, what do we have to assume, what do we need to do, what costs do we need to cut, how are we going to protect ourselves as best as we can? And we knew that the math said that our profitability will go down 25% when we make this change of internet pricing, and we expected that Wall Street would be so upset, because they didn't see this coming, no analyst saw this coming cause they don't know about complaint letters I'm getting, so, analysts would be upset and the stock would go down 40%, going to your board and telling them you want approval for a 25% reduction in profits and a 40% reduction in your stock price is not what you want to do as a CEO, you don't want to go to your board with that and when they ask you, well how sure are you that we're going to climb out of this, you say it's going to take 18 months, what if it takes three years, you know, I was, I didn't see the choice we had, honestly, in my heart, you don't build a great company with an increasing number of unhappy customers. I didn't think we had a choice, and Clayton Christensen was one of the consultants that I used to help me think all this through because it was really hard to make this change, Jeff, because we were doing so well. >> Right. >> Ostensibly, we were killing it. >> Right, so it's interesting, I wonder if you could contrast it to what's happening say now with COVID, right, it was this, didn't sneak up on anyone, it was a really kind of a light switch moment in mid-March where suddenly everyone has to work from home, all your digital transformation initiatives are now put on fast forward, but we still have this situation where there's a variety of potential outcomes and timing that's really hard to gauge, so when you're thinking about managing through change within perfect information and you almost have kind of will we go back to normal, will we stay where we are or some spectrum in between, how do you help people think about how they should come up with contingency plans and think about managing through a number of options with imperfect information and really kind of no clear line, you said you had an 18 month ROI that the analytics point to, we're not really sure how long this thing is going to go and what it's going to look like when we get to the other side. >> Well, I think there's two issues there, one of them is how we get through this pandemic period. Until we get to, there's three things we need, we need inexpensive testing that is not done by a professional that we can do at home to see if we're safe. That's number one. Number two, we need a treatment that helps us get through this and get to the other side without dying, we need the fatality rate to even drop further. And number three we need a vaccine. So those are the three things that we need, that the world is working on all three of those, and my guess is that in the first half of 2021 we will have all three of those, we'll have all three of those and this will be a thing, basically, a thing of the past. >> Jeff: Right. >> So, but I don't think the world goes back, to exactly the way it was. People have learned they can have very effective meetings without everybody flying to Chicago, or New York, or Las Angeles, they can do it over Zoom, that doesn't mean meetings go away, but I think they're going to go down in numbers and more online things are going to happen. More people are going to be working from home at least part of the week. It's going to be different. >> Yeah. >> Those CEO's who sit in a somewhat of an ivory tower and get numbers fed to them from their financial staff, and they're not out talking to customers directly, people look at that as anecdotal information, I think it's more important than that, I think you need to see the passion behind the voice and the eyeballs of some of your best customers to understand what's going on with them, and a lot of CEO's don't actually do that. >> Right. You've made a really interesting comment in another interview that you did earlier, and you talked about the high gain questions. And one of the challenges of all CEO's is nobody wants to be the one that tells his CEO bad news, whether that be someone on your staff, whether that be some lower level person who's on the front lines and really knows there's some broken things, or whether it's a good customer as you said and kind of a social setting, how you doin', oh we love you, blah blah blah. But as a CEO you really have stressed that that is really some important hard to find, and hard to filter information up to the executive suite, so what were some of the tips and tricks you used to make sure that people either A. weren't afraid to tell you bad news, and B. that you could kind of go out and sniff it out a little bit more creatively than just kind of waiting for it to come through in the weekly reports. >> Well, obviously, you know, I think all kinds of executives get out and they talk to their customers on a regular basis, they're out and they're talking to them, the problem with those kind of discussions are no one wants to be disrespectful, people want to be nice in those meetings by and large, and you ask questions "how are we doing" "oh you guys are doing great", meanwhile the guy who tells you you're doing great is also looking at some newer technology that might replace you. (laughs) So that kind of question doesn't get you very far. So what we used to do, to be quite specific, is that we used to do a monthly luncheon where I had 12 of my mostly top executives but some people a level or two down, 12 Schwab people with 24 customers. And so they were tables of six, two of us, four customers, and we had a theme that we would talk through and the themes were always around things of, if you had to pick out three things we don't do well, what would they be? Give the customer permission to be comfortable being critical. What are the three things that you've heard about our customers, our competitors doing, that are better than us? What are the things that we need to change to make you even more delighted? You need to ask those kinds of high gain questions where there's no polite answer, the customer is permitted and given the opportunity to answer in a truthful and critical fashion. >> That's a great lesson, as you said give them permission and give them the format and the forum to say some of those things so that you get some of that information. Another great leadership principle that you shared many times, I want to dig into a little bit is kind of motivation verses inspiration. And that those are often confused, but very different concepts in the way that you lead people. I wonder if you can dig in a little bit on your philosophy on those two things. >> Sure, you know it's funny, those terms motivation and inspiration are used almost interchangeably as if they're the same thing. And they're not. Motivation is fundamental in business, and it's the exchange of behaviors for rewards. I was a psychology major in college, this was one of the things we learned about the exchange of behaviors for rewards and that's motivation. Inspiration on the other hand, is the effort to make people want to do something for, not for rewards that are tangible, but to be part of something great. We want you to be part of a movement, we want you to be part of something special, something that's going to change the world for the better and trying to get your employees to buy into this notion that we are on a mission and that mission is to make the world a somewhat better place, it doesn't mean we don't make money, of course we make money, but we're also out for more than a financial bottom line, we're out for a bottom line that's great for customers and maybe pretty great for employees as well. >> So it's interesting, cause you've seen 'em right, you've been in finance for ever, it's always about the shareholders, you've talked about the stock price a number of times in terms of a measure, but it seems more purposed led or purpose forward organizations now are more appealing to the younger generation, I think the search for a little bit more meaning in our day to day job and what that company is all about seems to have elevated over the last several years and taken a higher role in what they used to call triple line accounting, is it not only your shareholders who always are at the top of the list and have been traditionally, but your customers, your employee, and more and more your community and even the environment. Have you seen the swing towards, it's not just about shareholder value? >> Well, not on Wall Street. (laughs) I think, Wall Street is about money, and the people who go to work on Wall Street, and the way Wall Street operates, it's measured in dollars and cents and share price and profits and distributions to private equity partners and so forth, it's a numbers game and it is a profit game on Wall Street, we should be honest about that, it is what it is. >> Jeff: Sure. >> And, I have yet to see the Wall Street firm that is talking about triple bottom lines cause that just doesn't happen very much on Wall Street, it doesn't happen from my perspective, it almost doesn't happen at all. But there are other companies where they do talk about a more triple bottom line, and I think as a leader if you want to be that kind of company and you want to be that kind of leader you have to be comfortable talking about that, and not feel embarrassed by it, not feel that oh, that's too airy fairy, that's too goody two shoes. If you really believe that our goal is to have a triple bottom line, profitability, great for employees, and great for customers and the world at large, then as a leader you need to talk about that. You need to be willing to stand up and have those kinds of conversations and let yourself be challenged by perhaps the press, employees, shareholders, who think that that's not a good strategy. I believe that in many cases that's a great strategy because on a long-term basis you don't want every employee in your company, and all of your senior executives to basically be up for sale, that if a bigger job comes in with a bigger compensation, they're out the door. You're looking for loyalty, you're looking for buy in, for participation, for wanting to give every bit of themselves for the mission of the company. And as the CEO, if you want to take that path, you got to be willing to put yourself out there and talk about it and suffer the slings and arrows from those who don't believe that that's the best path for the company. >> Right, right. Well and that's another thing that you've talked about quite often, is really that the company feeds off the passion of the CEO, and the CEO has to have that passion because they're lookin', they're watchin', they're lookin' at your moves, they're lookin' at what you say, they're lookin' at your body language, they're lookin' at everything that you do. And I think within the context of these transitions and these difficult times, you have another great line that you've used a number of times, which is: "You need to have a perception of momentum." I love that line, so everyone needs to think that we're on the right path, we're not there yet, I feel it, he looks like he feels it, he looks like he's confident, so now I'm confident and I'm going to jump in and help be part of this change process. You've seen that time and time. >> Well, momentum is a tricky thing, you can have momentum and not have the perception of momentum. Because if you're doing a turn around, what often happens is in the early stages of the turn around, the numbers start to change but they're small, and you really haven't seen, it's not as steep. The turn around doesn't go steep, the turn around goes and builds slowly. And, what you need to be measuring in the beginning, are kind of the inputs and behaviors rather than the outputs, sales and profits. Those take longer. But you need to build belief, you need to build buy in, because it can take a long time before things start getting better and you don't want your best people to wonder whether this is the right move, should I be looking for another job, so, you have to build the perception of momentum even as you're building the reality of momentum. >> Right, right. So another thing we cover a lot of tech conferences, obviously, Cloud and AI, machine learning are hot things. But, you know, it always goes back to the big three. It's the technology, okay, but it's also people, and more importantly I think that gets left out is process. So, when you're thinking about, you know you're management is, and again, especially through a transition or a difficult time or some unknown and choppy waters, how do you think about those three, prioritizing those three and organizing those three between people, process and technology? >> Okay, well, you know always looking for technology that can be implemented to give you productivity, better customer service, you need to be monitoring what you're competitors are doing, and be looking out, sometimes at the bleeding edge, where you don't need to implement those kinds of changes right away, but you need to know where you want to go down the road, so you have some sense of that. As far as process goes, your processes are both a strength and a weakness because the strength of how well you run your processes today is also how hard they're going to be to change tomorrow. You know, companies are built for predictability, reliability, risk minimization, and all of your processes are built for those things. But those are also the things that are the opposite of big breakthrough changes. So you need to be thinking about, all right, are we strengthening our processes but also, if we have a change coming that's going to require a change of some of those processes, how is that going to get in our way and how are we going to get past that? >> Jeff: Right. >> I've left people for the last because to me that's the heart and soul of a successful executive. One person never gets everything done, it's all about the quality of your team. You've got to be a recruiter, you've got to be always on the look out for new talent that can help your company, and you've got to be thinking about how you're going to recruit that talent. You have to be a magnet for talent. When I sit on boards and I talk to the CEOs, I ask them, what are you doing to be a magnet for talent? What does that mean? What are you doing for great people to want to work for you? For you, and your company, what are you doing, how are you reinvesting in people, how are you putting time and energy in their professional development, in their growth? How are you getting to know them? How are you understanding their ambitions, their hopes and desires for the future? How much time and effort do you spend on that? And that's all part of having people not leave, everyone, in a way you can look at the world and think everyone is for sale. But you want people that are not for sale, that are committed to you and committed to the mission and in today's world where everything seems so fluid, I know my ideas about this probably seem very old and perhaps out of date, but I still believe in them with all my heart, that you want people that are committed to you and what we are accomplishing together. And you have to be reinforcing that with your words, and even more importantly with your actions. >> Yeah, I think it goes back to your inspiration, people are much more motivated by inspiration than just collecting a paycheck or getting a compensation back for what they're doing, which is a great segue to the last topic I wanted to cover with you, and I remember this, we had dinner, I think it was 1996 at the Wharton's Zweig Series, and you were such a phenomenal speaker, and I remember asking you the question and I remember your answer, and I've repeated it ad nauseam for the last 20 years. I said, "David, you're such a great speaker, why, how?" And you were so matter of fact in that you just said "hey, it's an important part of my job, I treat it as a skill, I hired a coach, I practiced like I would do any other skill", and why that's such a powerful story is you clearly are in a position of power, you could clearly have a crazy ego that got in the way of such a matter of fact accomplishment of these tasks and all the PR people I talk to and they hear this story "oh my gosh, we got to get him talking to my executives" because so many people let ego get in the way of what is really an important task for a CEO and a leader which is communication and you recognize that early on and really went after it to make sure that you were very good at this very important task. >> Well, what happened to me, I got lucky, I got lucky. When I got promoted to be the CEO of Schwab, I knew I was going to have to do a lot more public speaking and I already thought I was pretty good at being a public speaker, but I thought I needed to fine tune my messaging, I needed to get it better. So, I looked around and I got some referrals and I hired a guy that I thought was going to be a speech writer for me, that would help craft the message. And, we had our first meeting, and we're talking about an upcoming speech and he says to me things like, "Well, Dave, I want to know more about your life. Tell me how you grew up, tell me what you're proudest moments were, I want to learn about you." And I said to him, "Terry, I'm not looking for a biographer, I want a speech writer, I need a guy that can help me craft my message." And he said, "Well, Dave, that's not how I do things. I need to know who you are, I need to know what your passions are and where they come from so that we can give a message that has more than just words it has meaning, it has your passion built into it, that's what we need to do." And that's what Terry taught me, was that it's not just the words, it's also the passion, energy, and meaning and connection behind the words. And I want to mention one other thing that I think is very important. When people talk about being really good communicators, they often talk about speaking. They don't focus on listening. And listening is a tremendously important skill. So for example, you give a speech, you're the CEO or Senior Executive, you give a speech, do you stay there and do you do a Q+A session? The Q+A session can even be more important than the speech sometimes, because all the employees know that the speech is something that was pre-arranged, it's not on the cuff, it's something that's been thought about and prepared. But the questions and answers are authentic and in the moment. People are clamoring for authentic leadership. That Q+A session, where you're listening for the question and maybe the question behind the question. So you're not just trying to get through them as fast as you can, but you're trying to really answer and listen for the question and the question behind the question. And then answer those from the heart with passion, and that's how you will score the most points with your audience. >> That's great. And then who knows what comes from it, in getting ready for this I came across your blog post talking about Gopi Kallayil a mutual friend at Wharton who reached out to you after that same dinner, and you were happy enough, or you were kind enough to respond and grow a friendship and a relationship that again is lasted for decades. So that's such an important message to listen, as somebody said right, "God gave you two ears and one mouth should try to use them in that ratio." (laughs) Well David, thank you so much for taking some time, again I think these are really trying times in leadership, I think it's really an opportunity for great leaders to shine and those that don't there's really no place to hide. So I really appreciate you sharing your insight and taking a few minutes with us. >> Thanks, Jeff, I hope all the people that follow you and listen to your broadcasts learn something today and come away with some benefit from this time we've spent together. >> Undoubtedly, undoubtedly. Well, thanks again. All right, he's Dave Pottruck, I'm Jeff Frick, you're watching theCUBE, thanks for watching and we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: From San Francisco, it's theCUBE. Covering Accenture Tech Vision 2020. Brought to you by Accenture. >> Hey, welcome back, everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're at the Accenture San Francisco Innovation Hub on the 33rd floor of the Sales Force Tower in downtown San Francisco. It's 2020, the year we know everything with the benefit of hindsight. And what better way to kick off the year than to have the Accenture Tech Vision reveal, which is happening later tonight, so we're really happy to have one of the authors who's really driving the whole thing. He's Michael Blitz, the managing director of the Accenture Tech Vision 2020, a very special edition. Michael, great to see you. >> Hey, thanks for having me. >> Absolutely, so you've been doing this for a while. I think we heard earlier, this thing's been going on for 20 years? >> It is. >> You've been involved for at least the last eight. >> Michael: I think a little bit more than that. >> More than that, so what's kind of the big theme before we get into some of the individual items? >> Yeah, so I mean, I think right now, what we're really talking about is that our real big theme is this: We the digital people. And it's that recognition that says that we've fundamentally changed. When you start looking at yourself and your lives, it's that you've gotten to a point where you're letting your cell phone track you. Your car knows where you are probably better than your spouse does. You're handing your key to Amazon and Walmart so they can deliver packages in your house. And more than that is that actually, we're trying to start to revolve our lives around this technology. I look at my own life, and we just sold our second car, specifically because we know that Uber and Lyft exist to fill that void. >> Right, well you don't have to look much further than phone numbers. How many people remember anybody's phone number anymore, right, 'cause you don't really have to. I think it's the 15th anniversary of Google Maps. >> Michael: Yep. >> This year, and to think of a world without Google Maps, without that kind of instant access to knowledge, is really hard to even fathom. But as you said, we're making trade-offs when we use all these services, and now, some of the costs of those things are being maybe more exposed? Maybe more cute or in your face? I don't know, what would you say? >> Yeah, I mean, I think what's happening now is that what we're realizing is that it's changed our relationship with companies. Is that suddenly we've actually brought them into our lives. And, on one hand, they're offering and have the ability to offer services that you could never really do before. But on the other hand is that, if I'm going to let somebody in my life, suddenly they don't have to just provide me value and this is useful, is that they actually, people are expecting them to retain their values, too. So, how they protect your data, what they're good for the community, for the environment, for society, whether it's sustainable or not. Is that suddenly, whereas people used to only care about what the product you're getting, now how it's built and how your company's being run is starting, it's just starting to become important, too. >> Right, well it's funny, 'cause you used to talk about kind of triple bottom line, shareholders, customers and your employees. And you talked about, really, this kind of fourth line, which is community and really being involved in the community. People care, suddenly you go to conferences where we spend a lot of time all the utensils are now compostable and the forks are compostable. And a lot of the individual packaging stuff is going away. So people do care. >> They do, and there's a fourth and a fifth. It says that your community cares, but your partners do, too. Is that you can't, I'm going to say, downgrade the idea that your B2B folks care is that suddenly, we're finding ourselves tied to these other companies, and not just in a supply chain, but from everything. And so, you're not in this alone in terms of how you're delivering these things. But now it's becoming a matter that says, Well, man, if my partners are going to get pummeled because they're not doing the right thing or they don't have that broad scope, that's going to reflect on me, too. And so, now you're suddenly in this interesting position where all of the things that we suspected were going to happen around digital connecting everybody is just starting to, and I think that's going to have a lot of positive effects. >> Yeah, so one of the things you talked about earlier today, in an earlier presentation was kind of the shift from kind of buyer and seller, seller and consumer, to provider and collaborator. Really kind of reflecting a very different kind of a relationship between the parties as opposed to this one-shot transactional relationship. >> No, and that's right, and it doesn't matter who you're talking about, is that, if you're hiring folks for skills that you're assuming that they're going to learn, that's going to be different in three years, in five years, you're essentially partnering with them in order to take all of you on a journey. When you start talking about governments, is that you're now partnering with regulators. You look at companies like Tesla, who are working on regulations for electric cars, they're working on regulations around battery technology. And you see that this go-it-alone approach isn't what you're doing. Rather, it's becoming much more holistic. >> Right, so we're in the innovation hub, and I think number five of the five is really about innovation today. >> Michael: It is. >> And you guys are driving innovation. And, rest in peace, Clayton Christensen passed away, Innovator's Dilemma, my all-time favorite book. But the thing I love about that book is that smart people making sound decisions based on business logic and taking care of existing customers will always miss discontinuous change. But you guys are really trying to help big companies be innovative. What are some of the things that they should be thinking about, besides, obviously, engaging with Mary and the team here at Innovation Hub? >> Yeah, no, and that's the really interesting thing is that when we talked about innovation, you know, five or even 10 years ago, you were talking about, just: How do I find a new product or a new service to bring to market? And now, that's the minimum stakes. Like, that's what everybody's doing. And I think what we're realizing as we're seeing tech become such a big part is that we all see how it's affecting the world. And a lot of times that things are good is that there's no reason why you wouldn't look at somebody like a Lyft or Uber and say that it's had a lot of positive effects. But from the same standpoint is that, you ask questions of: Is it good for public transit? It is good for city infrastructure? And those are hard questions to ask. And I think where we're really pushing now is that question that says: We've got an entire generation of not-tech companies, but every company that's about to get into this innovation game, and what we want them to do is to look at this not the way that the tech folks did, that says, here's one service or one technology, but rather, look at it holistically that says: How am I actually going to implement this, and what is the real effects that it's going to have on all of these different aspects? >> Right, Law of Unintended Consequences is always a good one. >> Michael: It is. >> And I remember hearing years ago of this concept of curb management. I'm like, Curb management, who ever thought of that? Well, drive up and down in Manhattan when they're delivering groceries or delivering Amazon packages and FedEx packages and UberEats and delivery dog food now. Where is that stuff being staged now that the warehouse has kind of shifted out into the public space? So, you never kind of really know where these things are going to end up. >> No, and I'm not saying that we're going to be able to predict all of it. I think, rather, it's that starting point that says that we're starting to see a big push that says that these things need to be factored and considered. And then, similarly, it's the, if you're working with them up-front, it becomes less of a fault, on a fight of whose fault it is at the end, and it becomes more of a collaboration that says, How much more can we do if we're working with our cities, if we're working with our employees, if we're working with our customers? >> Right, now another follow up, you guys've been talking about this for years, is every company is a tech company or a digital company, depending on how you want to spin that. But as you were talking about it earlier today, in doing so and in converting from products to service, and converting from an ongoing relationship to a one-time transaction, it's not only at that point of touch with a customer, but you've got to make a bunch of fundamental changes back in your own systems to support kind of this changing business model. >> Now, and that's right, and I think this is going to become the big challenge of the generation, is that we've gotten to a point where just using their existing models for how you interact with your customers or how you protect their data or who owns the data, all of these types of things, is that they were designed back when we were doing single applications, and they were loading up on your Windows PC. And where we're at now is that we're starting to ask questions that says, All right, in this new world, what do I have to fundamentally do differently? And sometimes that can be as simple as asking a question that says, you know, there's a consortium of pharma folks who have created a joint way for them to develop all of their search algorithms for new drugs. But they're using block chain, and so they're not actually sharing the data. So they do all the good things, but they're pushing that up. But fundamentally, that's a different way to think about it. You're now creating an entirely new infrastructure because what you're used to is just handing somebody the data, and what they do with the data afterwards is kind of their issue and not yours. And so now we're asking big, new questions to do it. >> Right, another big thing that keeps coming up over and over is trust. And again, we talked a little earlier. But I find this really ironic situation where people don't necessarily trust the companies in terms of the people running the companies and what they're going to do with their data, but they fundamentally trust the technology coming out of the gate and this expectation of: Of course it works, everything works on my mobile phone. But the two are related, but not equal. >> Michael: No, I mean, they're not, I mean, and it's really pushing this idea that says we've been looking at all these, I'm going to say scary headlines, of people not trusting companies for the last number of years, while at the same time, the adoption for the technology has been huge. So there's this dichotomy that's going on in people, where at one point, they like the tech. You know, I think the last stat I saw is that everybody spends up to six-and-a-half hours a day involved on the internet, in their technology. But from the same standpoint is that they worry about who's using it and how and what is going to be done. And I think where we're at is that interesting piece that says we're not worried about a tech lash. We don't think that people are going to stop using technology. Rather, we think it's really this tech clash that says they're not getting the value that they thought out of it, or they're seeing companies that may be using this technologies that don't share the same values that they do, and really, what we think this becomes, is the next opportunity for the next generations of service providers in order to fill that gap. >> Right, yeah, don't forget there was a Friendster and a MySpace before there was a Facebook. >> Yeah, there was. >> So, nothing lasts forever. So, last question before I let you go, it's a busy night. The first one was the I in experience, and I think kind of the user experience doesn't get enough light as to such a defining thing that does move the market if, again, I love to pick on Uber, but the Uber experience compared to walking outside on a rainy day in Manhattan and hoping to hail down a cab is fundamentally different, and I would argue, that it's that technology put together in this user experience that defined this kind of game-changing event, as opposed to it's a bunch of APIs stitching stuff together in the back. >> No, that's right, and I think where we're at right now is that we're about to see the next leap beyond that. Is that, most of the time when we look at the experiences that we're doing today, they're one way. Is that people assume that, Yeah, I have your data, I'm trying to customize. And whether it's an ad or a buying experience or whatever, but they're pushing it as this one-way street, and when we talk about putting the I back in experience, it's that question of the next step to really get people both more engaged as well as to, I'm going to say improve the experience itself, means that it's going to become a partnership. So you're actually going to start looking for input back and forth, and it's sometimes going to be as simple as saying that that ad that they're pushing out is for a product that I've already bought. Or, you know, maybe even just tell me how you knew that that's what I was looking for. But it's sometimes that little things, the back and forth, is how you take something from, what can be a mediocre experience, even potentially a negative one, and really turn it into something that people like. >> Yeah, well, Michael, I'll let you go. I know you got a busy night, we're going to present this. And really thankful to you and the team, and congratulations for coming up with something that's a little bit more provocative than, Cloud's going to be big, or Mobile's going to be big, or Edge is going to be big. So this is great material, and thanks for having us back. Look forward to tonight. >> No, happy to do it, and next year we'll probably do it again. >> [Jeff\ I don't know, we already know everything, it's 2020, what else is unknown? >> Everything's going to change. >> All right, thanks again. (upbeat music)

>>from San Francisco. It's the Cube covering Accenture Tech Vision 20 twenties Brought to you by >>Accenture. >>Hey, welcome back here. Ready? Jeff Frick here with the Cube. We're at the Accenture San Francisco Innovation Hub in the 33rd floor of the Salesforce Tower in downtown San Francisco. It's 2020 the year we know everything with the benefit of hindsight. It what better way to kick off the year than they have the Accenture Tech vision reveal, which is happening later tonight. So we're really happy to have one of the authors who's really driving the whole thing. He's Michael Built the managing director of the Accenture Tech Vision. 2020. A very special edition. Michael, great to see you. Thanks for having me. Absolutely. So you've been doing this for a while? I think we heard earlier. This thing's been going on for 20 years, but you've been involved with at least the last eight a little bit more and more than that. So what's the, uh, what's kind of the big theme before we get into some of the individual? Yeah, So I >>mean, I think right now what we're really talking about is that our real big theme is this ui the digital people? And it's that recognition that says that we fundamentally changed. I mean, when you start looking at yourself in your lives, is that you've gotten to a point where you're letting your cellphone track you. You know your car knows where you are, probably better than your spouse does. You know you're handing your key to all go to Amazon and Wal Marts. They deliver packages. Your help, and more than that, is that actually, we're trying to start to revolve our lives around this technology. You know, I look at my own life and we just sold our second car specifically because we know that uber and lift exists to fill that void, >>right? Well, you don't look much further >>than than phone numbers. How many people remember anybody's phone number anymore? Right, cause you don't really have to. I >>think it's 1/15 anniversary of Google maps this year, and to think of a world without Google Maps without that kind of instant access to knowledge is is really hard to even fathom. But as you said, we're making trade offs when we use all these services and and Now, some of the costs of those things are being maybe more exposed, maybe more cuter in your face. I don't know. What would you say? >>I mean, I think what's happening now is that what we're realizing is that it's changed our relationship with is that suddenly we've actually brought them into our lives. And on one hand they're offering and have the ability to offer services that you could never really do before, you know. But on the other hand is that if I'm gonna let somebody in my life suddenly they don't have to provide. Just provide me value. And this is useful is that they actually irks people expecting them to retained their values to, you know, so how they protect your data. What they're good for the community, for the environment, for society, whether it's sustainable or not, is that suddenly whereas people used to only care about what the products are getting now, how it's built, how your company is being run, it's starting like it's just starting, you know, to become important too, >>right? Well, it's funny cause you used to talk about, you know, kind of triple bottom line shareholders, customers and your employees and you talked about really kind of this fourth line, which is the community and really being involved in the community. People care suddenly go to conferences that we spend >>a lot of time and you know, all the utensils air now compostable and the forks air compostable. And you know, a >>lot of the individual packaging stuff is going away, so people do care. >>They do. And then there's 1/4 and 1/5 that says, the your community cares, you know? But it's also your partners. Do, too, is that you can't you know, I'm going to say downgrade. You know, the idea that you're B two b folks care is that suddenly we're finding ourselves tied to these other companies, and not just in a supply chain, you know, but from everything. And so you're not in this alone in terms of how you're delivering these things. But now it's becoming a data that says the man, if my partners are going to get pummeled because they're not doing the right thing or they don't have that broad scope, is the that's going to reflect on me, too, And so now you're suddenly in this interesting position Where all of the things that we suspected we're gonna happen around digital connecting everybody is just starting to. And I think that's gonna have a lot of positive effects. >>Yep. So one of the things you talked about earlier today, earlier presentation was kind of the shift from kind of buyer and seller seller, consumer to provider and collaborator, Really kind of reflecting a very different kind of a relationship between the parties as opposed to kind of this 11 shot transactional relationship >>now And that's right. And it doesn't matter who you're talking about. This is that, You know, if you're hiring folks, you know, for skills that you're assuming that they're going to learn, you know, that's going to be different in three years and five years. You're essentially partnering with them in order to take all of you on a journey. You know, when you start talking about governments, is that you're now partnering with regulators. You know, you look at companies like Tesla who are working on, you know, regulations for electric cars. They're working on regulations around battery technology. And you see that this go it alone approaches and what you're doing? You know, Rather, it's becoming much more holistic, >>right? So we're in the innovation hub, and I think Number five of the five is really about innovation today. And you guys are driving >>innovation and you know the rest of peace. Clayton Christensen passed away. Innovator's Dilemma. My all Time favorite book The Thing I love about that book is it's smart people. Making sound decisions based on business logic and taking care of existing customers will always miss this continuous change. But you guys are really trying to help companies be innovative. What are some of the things that they that they should be thinking about besides obviously engaging with marrying the team here? And >>that's the really interesting thing is that you know, when we talk about innovation, you know, five or even 10 years ago, you were talking about just how do I find a new product or new service to bring to market? And now that's the minimum stakes like that's what everybody's doing. And I think what we're realizing as we're seeing tech become such a big part is that we all see how it's affecting the world. And a lot of times the things they're good is that there's no reason why you wouldn't look at somebody like a lifter uber and say that it's had a lot of positive effects. But from the same standpoint is that you ask questions of Is it good for public transit? It's good for city infrastructure, and those are hard questions to ask. And I think where we're really pushing now is that question that says We've got an entire generation of not tech companies. But every company that's about to get into this innovation game and what we want them to do is to look at this, not the way that the tech folks did. That says, Here's one service or one technology but rather look at it holistically. That says, How am I actually going to implement this? And what is the real effects that it's gonna have on all of these Different >>lot of unintended consequences is always >>a good, and I remember hearing years ago >>this concept of of curb management, curb management you ever thought of that will drive up and down in Manhattan when they're delivering groceries or delivering Amazon packages and FedEx packages and uber eats and delivery dog food. Now where's that stuff being staged? Now? The warehouses kind of shifted. You got into the public space, so you never kind of really know where these things they're going to end up? >>No. And I'm not saying that we're gonna be able to predict all of it. I think rather it's that starting point that says that, you know, we're starting to see a big push, you know, that says that these things need to be factored in and considered. And then similarly, it's the If you're working with them up front, it becomes less of a fault in a fight of who's fault. It is at the end, and it becomes more of a collaboration that says, How much more can we do if we're working with our cities that we're working with our employees? We're working with >>another follow up. You guys been talking about this for years? Is every company is a tech company or a digital company, depending on how you want to spin that. But as you were talking about earlier today in doing so and then converting from products to services and converting from an ongoing relationship 21 time transaction, it's not only at that point of view touch with a customer, but you've got to make a bunch of fundamental changes back in your own systems to support kind of this changing business >>models. And that's right. And I think this is going >>to become The big challenge of the generation is that we've gotten to a point where just using their existing models for you know how you interact with your customers or how you protect their data or who owns the data. All of these types of things is that they were designed back when we were doing single applications and they were loading up on your windows PC. And where we're at now is that we're starting ask questions that says Alright in this New World order why it's a fundamentally do differently, you know, And, you know, sometimes that could be You know, a simple is asking a question that says, You know, there's a consortium of pharma folks who have created a joint way for them to develop all of their search algorithms for new drugs, but they're using Blockchain, and so they're not actually sharing the data, so they do all the good things but they're pushing that. But fundamentally, that's a different way to think about it. You're not creating an entirely new infrastructure because what you're used to is just handing somebody the data on what they do with the data afterwards. It's kind of their issue and not yours. And so now we're asking big new questions to do it >>right. Another big thing that keeps coming up over and over is trust. And again, we talked little. Really? I find this really ironic situation where people don't necessarily trust the companies in terms of the people running the companies and what they're gonna do with their data. But they fundamentally trust the technology coming out of the gate and this expectation of, of course it works. Everything works on my on my mobile phone, but the two are inter related, but not equal. >>No, I mean, they're >>not. I mean, it's really pushing this idea that says the we've been looking at all of these. I'm going to say scary headlines. People are not trusting companies for the last number of years, while at the same time the adoption for the technology has been huge. But there's this dichotomy that's going on and people were at one point is the they like the tech. I think the last stat I stall is that everybody spends up to six and 1/2 hours a day involved on the Internet in their technology. But from the same standpoint is that they worry about who's using it, how and what it's done. And I think where we're at is that interesting piece that says the we're not worried about a backlash. We don't think that people are going to stop using technology. Rather, we think it's really this tech backlash that says they're not getting the value that they thought out of it, you know? Or they're seeing companies that may be using this, technologies that don't share the same values that they do. And really, what we think this becomes is the next opportunity for the next generations of service providers in order to fill that >>right. Don't forget, there was a Friendster and MySpace before there was a Facebook. Nothing lasts forever. So last question finally goes busy night. The 1st 1 was the eye and experience, and I think you know the kind of the user experience doesn't get enough light as to such a such a defining thing that doesn't move the market again. I lived in an uber right, but the uber experience compared to walking outside on a rainy day in Manhattan and hoping to nail down a cab is fundamentally different. And I would argue that it's that technology put together in this user experience that defined this kind of game changing event as opposed to, You know, it's a bunch of AP I stitch and stuff together in the back. >>That's right. And I think where we're at right now is that we're about to see the next leap. Beyond that is that you know, most of the time when we look at the experiences that we're doing today, they're one way is that people assume that, Yeah, I have your data trying to customize and whether it's a ad or buying experience or whatever. But they're pushing it as this one way street. And when we talk about putting the I back experience, it's that question of the next step to really get people both more engaged as well as to I'm going to say improve the experience. Self means that it's going to become a partnership. So you're actually going to start looking for input back and forth, you know? And it's sometimes it's going to be a simple is saying that that ad that they're pushing out is for a product that I've already bought or, you know, maybe even just tell me how you knew, You know, that that's what I was looking for. But it's sometimes that little things that back and forth is how you take something from, you know, which could be a mediocre experiences, even potentially a negative one and really turned it into something that people like. >>Yeah, well, Michael, I let you go. I know you got a busy night, and we're going to present this and ah, I really think to you and the team And congratulations for coming up with something that's a little bit more provocative than Cloud's Going to be big or mobile is going to be big or edge is going to be big. So this is a great material. And thanks for having us back. Look forward to tonight happening. >>Happy to do it. And, you know, next year will probably do it again. >>So we already know everything is 20. >>20. What else is No, A All right. Thanks again. >>Yeah,

>> Announcer: From San Francisco, it's theCUBE covering Accenture Tech Vision 2020, brought to you by Accenture. >> Hey, welcome back, everybody. Jeff Rick here with theCUBE. We are high atop San Francisco, at the Accenture Innovation Hub, 33rd floor of the Salesforce Tower at the Accenture Technology Vision 2020 party. The party's getting started. Paul, and Mike, and the team are going to present the findings, and we're excited to have, actually, the hostess of this great facility. She's Ashley Miller, managing director of the San Francisco Innovation Hub. Ashley, great to see you. >> Great to see you again. >> So, congratulations once again. We were here last year. It was the grand opening of this facility. >> Ashley: Yes, sure was. >> You've had it open for a year now. >> We sure have. It's been a year. We also have a soft launch in September, so a little more than a year under our belt, and as you can see, the place is busy. >> Right, so you had the hard job, right? So Mike, and Paul, and all the big brains, they put together pretty pictures, and great statements. You're the one that actually has to help customers implement this stuff, so tell us a little bit about how you use the Tech Vision because it's pretty insightful. It's a lot deeper than cloud's going to be big, or mobile's going to be big, but to take some of these things to help you with your customers drive this innovation. >> Yeah, well, I don't know about having the hard job against theirs. They certainly have the hard job understanding what these technology trends are that are going to have an impact on business three to five years out, but I certainly do have the fun job, and the exciting job. I get to work with our clients every day here in the hub, and work with our 250 dedicated innovation teammates here in the hub to think about the impact of these trends to their business, so clients come in for a day, two days, a week, and we'll sit with technologists. We'll get our hands on some of these emerging technologies, on quantum computing, on artificial intelligence, machine vision, machine learning, natural language processing. You name it, we have it here. We have a smart materials showcase going on upstairs that a lot of these clients have checked out, so they can come here, they can get their hands on these technologies that are driving these trends, and then, they can sit and work with strategists, and others who can think about, what are the application of these technologies to their business? And then, what's really exciting is we have engineers here who can then help build prototypes to actually test these technologies to see what their impacts are for the business, and then, finally, support the rollout of pilots that prove successful, so it's, again, it's a fun job. I love it. >> And how does it actually work in terms of best practices? Is it starting out as some strategy conversation with the top-level people about trying to integrate say, more AI into their products, or is it maybe more of within a product group, where they're trying to be a little bit more innovative, and it really challenges on the product development path? You talked about the material science that they want to go down, what are some of the ways that people actually work with you, and work with your teams, and leverage this asset here at the hub? >> Yeah, so ultimately, it's both, and it's at all ends of the spectrum. We are here in the Silicon Valley, where clients are coming from all over the globe to understand what the trends are that are going to shape their business operations in the future, so we have clients that are coming through. Some people call them digital safaris, or innovation safaris. Some people may say that's not valuable. I think it is valuable to come and get firsthand experience, knowledge, touch and feel these things, and really dedicate time to think about the application to your business. On the other end of the spectrum, we'll have clients who are here for days, weeks, and months, and we have ongoing partnerships with clients. We've been open for about a year and a half, for that and longer to actually embed this innovation capabilities into their business, so I think maybe an answer is, what is the most successful model I see? I really get to dig into these clients who are using our services as an innovation engine to help them drive their business, and to help augment their innovation capabilities, and it's those clients I see who are continuously testing, continuously learning, understanding the impact of these technologies, driving proofs of concepts to test them who are able to make progress. >> Can it happen without top down support? I mean, we talked, unfortunately Clayton Christensen just passed away. Innovator's Dilemma, my favorite business book of all time because he said smart people making sound business decisions based on customers, profitability, and business, logical business priorities, will always miss discontinuous change. Jeff Bezos talks about AWS had a seven-year head start on their public cloud because no one down in Redwood Shores, or Waldorf was paying attention to the bookseller in Seattle, so it's hard for big companies to innovate, so is it really necessary for that top down, that, hey, we are going to invest, and we are going to saddle up, and get our hands dirty with some of these technologies for them to be successful, and drive innovation because it's not easy for big enterprises. >> You're exactly right. Innovation is hard. Change is difficult. I was a student of Clayton Christensen, and like you and many others, are mourning his passing. He made a significant impact, this area of research. Change is hard. It's difficult, so we see a lot of clients who are coming in, and are doing interesting things to overcome that inertia to stay put, and I think tops down leadership is a significant piece of that. You need to have leaders who are supporting movement, who are enabling decision making quickly, so they are supporting small decisions they're making frequently so that there's not a massive decision that happens at the end of a pilot, but rather, micro-decisions that help ensure things are being moved along, building pilots and proof of concepts, of course, helped in that movement to get buy-in, to get leaders to see the value, and to also pivot if something isn't working, so innovation is hard. Accenture's Innovation Hub helps to fill some of those gaps because really, we are a sandbox, where you can come in, build the proof of concepts, test these ideas, and then, in an ongoing, continuous way, help understand their impacts to your business. >> Right, and I'm just curious how often, as order of magnitude, this innovation around a particular, existing business, maybe it's the new materials, the new way of thinking about it, versus maybe, is this a way for them to really explore wild ideas, or go out a little bit beyond the edge of what they're going to execute in their normal, day to day, say, product development because which of those do you find is best use of your resources? >> Yeah, so again, it runs the spectrum. I mean, I think the companies who are innovating around the edges, they're spending a lot of money to run pilots, and tests, proof of concepts that may not have significant value to the core of their business, so of course, it's the companies who are really thinking about how they're going to innovate new business models, how they're going to build on these trends to figure out where their company is going in the future, and be ready, and be ahead of the curve, but in order to get there, maybe you do need to get your hands dirty, and run some tests, run some proof of concepts to understand the technology. The key is, in order to ensure that the investment in those activities is actually helping you move the needle. >> Right, so how should people, if somebody's watching this, and they want to get involved, or I'm busting my head. We're not moving as fast as we need to. I'm nervous. I have an imperative. I need to accelerate this stuff. How do they get involved, and how do they end up here getting their hands dirty with some of your team? >> Yeah, thanks for that, appreciate that. Accenture works with the largest organizations around the globe, and there's typically a client account leader, partner, from Accenture embedded into the biggest organizations, and so, for those who are existing clients, they can reach out to their client account lead, and we would be delighted to welcome them in, and do some, either, exploratory research into these technologies, or actually, do some longer-term innovation engine work, where we're helping to augment their capabilities. For those who, maybe, aren't an Accenture client, then, we do have open houses. We do quarterly open events, not only for potential new clients, but also, for people in the community for partners, for schools. We're really committed to helping to be an asset for San Francisco, for this community, so keep your eyes peeled for opportunities to come in. >> Yeah, that's great because last time when we were here when we opened there was a lot of conversation about being a very active participant in the community. You guys are sponsors with the Warriors at the Chase Center, but no, I think we had a number of people from the city and county of San Francisco in talking about the opportunities, and being an active, engaged member of the community beyond just a for-profit company. >> Absolutely, and the undercurrent of this year's Tech Vision, which is about to launch is all about thinking beyond the edges of your organization, and understanding the choices that you make, how they impact the communities you serve, so it's really important to us to be a good steward of that here at Accenture, and we have teammates accessible within the hub. For example, data enthesis, who can help you understand the decisions you're making around artificial intelligence. Are you using data securely? Are you using it in a way that makes people feel comfortable? So we have teammates here who can help clients consider the impact of these decisions that goes beyond the four walls, to really be a good steward for the next generation. >> Okay, well, next time I come, I'm wearing a white coat, so we can go get our hands dirty. >> I like it. >> All right, Ashley, well, again, congratulations to you and the team, and have a great evening. >> Thank you so much. >> All right, she's Ashley, I'm Jeff. You're watching theCUBE. We're at the Accenture Innovation Hub for the Technology Vision 2020. Thanks for watching, and we'll see you next time. (funky electronic music)

(bright music) >> Hey welcome back, everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE We are high atop San Francisco in the Sales Force Tower in the new Accenture offices, it's really beautiful and as part of that, they have their San Francisco Innovation Hubs. So it's five floors of maker's labs, and 3D printing, and all kinds of test facilities and best practices, innovation theater, and this studio which is really fun to be at. So we're talking about hybrid cloud and the development of cloud and multi-cloud and continuing on this path. Not only are customers on this path, but everyone is kind of on this path as things kind of evolve and transform. We are excited to have a couple of experts in the field we've got Larry Socher, he's the Global Managing Director of Intelligent Cloud Infrastructure Services growth and strategy at Accenture. Larry, great to see you again. >> Great to be here, Jeff. And Ajay Patel, he's the Senior Vice President and General Manager at Cloud Provider Software Business Unit at VMWare and a theCUBE alumni as well. >> Excited to be here, thank you for inviting me. >> So, first off, how do you like the digs up here? >> Beautiful place, and the fact we're part of the innovation team, thank you for that. >> So let's just dive into it. So a lot of crazy stuff happening in the marketplace. Lot of conversations about hybrid cloud, multi-cloud, different cloud, public cloud, movement of back and forth from cloud. Just want to get your perspective today. You guys have been in the middle of this for a while. Where are we in this kind of evolution? Everybody's still kind of feeling themselves out, is it, we're kind of past the first inning so now things are settling down? How do you kind of view the evolution of this market? >> Great question and I think Pat does a really nice job of defining the two definitions. What's hybrid versus multi? And simply put, we look at hybrid as when you have consistent infrastructure. It's the same infrastructure regardless of location. Multi is when you have disparate infrastructure, but are using them in a collective. So just from a from a level setting perspective, the taxonomy is starting to get standardized. Industry is starting to recognize hybrid is the reality. It's not a step in the long journey. It is an operating model that going to exist for a long time. So it's not about location. It's about how do you operate in a multi-cloud and a hybrid cloud world. And together at Accenture VMware have a unique opportunity. Also, the technology provider, Accenture, as a top leader in helping customers figure out where best to land their workload in this hybrid, multi-cloud world. Because workloads are driving decisions. >> Jeff: Right. >> We are going to be in this hybrid, multi-cloud world for many years to come. >> Do I need another layer of abstraction? 'Cause I probably have some stuff that's in hybrid and I probably have some stuff in multi, right? 'Cause those are probably not mutually exclusive, either. >> We talked a lot about this, Larry and I were chatting as well about this. And the reality is the reason you choose a specific cloud, is for those native differentiator capability. So abstraction should be just enough so you can make workloads portable. To be able to use the capability as natively as possible. And by fact that we now at VMware have a native VMware running on every major hyperscaler and on pram, gives you that flexibility you want of not having to abstract away the goodness of the cloud while having a common and consistent infrastructure while tapping into the innovations that the public cloud brings. So, it is the evolution of what we've been doing together from a private cloud perspective to extend that beyond the data center, to really make it an operating model that's independent of location. >> Right, so Larry, I'm curious your perspective when you work with customers, how do you help them frame this? I mean I always feel so sorry for corporate CIAOs. I mean they got security going on like crazy, they go GDPR now I think, right? The California regs that'll probably go national. They have so many things to be worried about. They go to keep up on the latest technology, what's happening in containers. I thought it was doc, now you tell me it's Kubernetes. It's really tough. So how do you help them kind of, put a wrapper around it? >> It's got to start with the application. I mean you look at cloud, you look at infrastructure more broadly I mean. It's there to serve the applications and it's the applications that really drive business value. So I think the starting point has to be application led. So we start off, we have our intelligent engineering guys, our platform guys, who really come in and look and do an application modernization strategy. So they'll do an assessment, you know, most of our clients given their scale and complexity usually have from 500 to 20,000 applications. You know, very large estates. And you got to start to figure out okay what's my current applications? A lot of times they'll use the six Rs methodology and they say hey okay what is it? I'm going to retire this, I no longer need it. It no longer has business value. Or I'm going to replace this with SaaS. I move it to sales force for example, or service now, etcetera . Then they're going to start to look at their workloads and say okay, hey, do I need to re-fact of reformat this. Or re-host it. And one of the things obviously, VMware has done a fantastic job is allowing you to re-host it using their software to find data center, you know, in the hyperscaler's environment. >> We call it just, you know, migrate and then modernize. >> Yeah, exactly. But the modernized can't be missed. I think that's where a lot of times we see clients kind of get in the trap, hey, i'm just going to migrate and then figure it out. You need to start to have a modernization strategy and then, 'cause that's ultimately going to dictate your multi and your hybrid cloud approach, is how those apps evolve and you know the dispositions of those apps to figure out do they get replaced. What data sets need to be adjacent to each other? >> Right, so Ajay, you know we were there when Pat was with Andy and talking about VMware on AWS. And then, you know, Sanjay is showing up at everybody else's conference. He's at Google Cloud talking about VMware on Google Cloud. I'm sure there was a Microsoft show I probably missed you guys were probably there, too. You know, it's kind of interesting, right, from the outside looking in, you guys are not a public cloud, per se, and yet you've come up with this great strategy to give customers the options to adopt VMware in a public cloud and then now we're seeing where even the public cloud providers are saying, "Here, stick this box in your data center". It's like this little piece of our cloud floating around in your data center. So talk about the evolution of the strategy, and kind of what you guys are thinking about 'cause you know you are clearly in a leadership position making a lot of interesting acquisitions. How are you guys see this evolving and how are you placing your bets? >> You know Pat has been always consistent about this and any strategy. Whether it's any cloud or any device. Any workload, if you will, or application. And as we started to think about it, one of the big things we focused on was meeting the customer where he was at in his journey. Depending on the customer, they may simply be trying to figure out working out to get on a data center. All the way, to how to drive an individual transformation effort. And a partner like Accenture, who has the breadth and depth and sometimes the vertical expertise and the insight. That's what customers are looking for. Help me figure out in my journey, first tell me where I'm at, where am I going, and how I make that happen. And what we've done in a clever way in many ways is, we've created the market. We've demonstrated that VMware is the only, consistent infrastructure that you can bet on and leverage the benefits of the private or public cloud. And I often say hybrid's a two-way street now. Which is they are bringing more and more hybrid cloud services on pram. And where is the on pram? It's now the edge. I was talking to the Accenture folks and they were saying the metro edge, right? So you're starting to see the workloads And I think you said almost 40 plus percent of future workloads are now going to be in the central cloud. >> Yeah, and actually there's an interesting stat out there. By 2022, seventy percent of data will be produced and processed outside the cloud. So I mean the edge is about to, as we are on the tipping point of IOT finally taking off beyond smart meters. We're going to see a huge amount of data proliferate out there. So the lines between between public and private have becoming so blurry. You can outpost, you look at, Antheos, Azure Stack for ages. And that's where I think VMware's strategy is coming to fruition. You know they've-- >> Sometimes it's great when you have a point of view and you stick with it against the conventional wisdom. And then all of a sudden everyone is following the herd and you are like, "This is great". >> By the way, Anjay hit on a point about the verticalization. Every one of our clients, different industries have very different paths there. And to the meaning that the customer where they're on their journey. I mean if you talk to a pharmaceutical, you know, GXP compliance, big private cloud, starting to dip their toes into public. You go to Mians and they've been very aggressive public. >> Or in manufacturing with Edge Cloud. >> Exactly. >> So it really varies by industry. >> And that's a very interesting area. Like if you look at all the OT environments of the manufacturing. We start to see a lot of end of life of environments. So what's that next generation of control systems going to run on? >> So that's interesting on the edge because and you've brought up networking a couple times while we've been talking as a potential gate, right, when one of them still in the gates, but we're seeing more and more. We were at a cool event, Churchill Club when they had psy links, micron, and arm talking about shifting more of the compute and store on these edge devices to accommodate, which you said, how much of that stuff can you do at the edge versus putting in? But what I think is interesting is, how are you going to manage that? There is a whole different level of management complexity when now you've got this different level of distributing computing. >> And security. >> And security. Times many, many thousands of these devices all over the place. >> You might have heard recent announcements from VMware around the Carbon Black acquisition. >> Yeah. >> That combined with our workspace one and the pulse IOT, we are now giving you the management framework whether it's for people, for things, or devices. And that consistent security on the client, tied with our network security with NSX all the way to the data center security. We're starting to look at what we call intrinsic security. How do we bake security into the platform and start solving these end to end? And have our partner, Accenture, help design these next generation application architectures, all distributed by design. Where do you put a fence? You could put a fence around your data center but your app is using service now and other SaaS services. So how do you set up an application boundary? And the security model around that? So it's really interesting times. >> You hear a lot about our partnership around software defined data center, around networking. With Villo and NSX. But we've actually been spending a lot of time with the IOT team and really looking and a lot of our vision aligns. Actually looking at they've been working with similar age in technology with Liota where, ultimately the edge computing for IOT is going to have to be containerized. Because you're going to need multiple modalware stacks, supporting different vertical applications. We were actually working with one mind where we started off doing video analytics for predictive maintenance on tires for tractors which are really expensive the shovels, et cetera. We started off pushing the data stream, the video stream, up into Azure but the network became a bottleneck. We couldn't get the modality. So we got a process there. They're now looking into autonomous vehicles which need eight megabits load latency band width sitting at the edge. Those two applications will need to co-exist and while we may have Azure Edge running in a container down doing the video analytics, if Caterpillar chooses Green Grass or Jasper, that's going to have to co-exist. So you're going to see the whole containerization that we are starting to see in the data center, is going to push out there. And the other side, Pulse, the management of the Edge, is going to be very difficult. >> I think the whole new frontier. >> Yeah absolutely. >> That's moving forward and with 5G IntelliCorp. They're trying to provide value added services. So what does that mean from an infrastructure perspective? >> Right, right. >> When do you stay on the 5G radio network versus jumping on a back line? When do you move data versus process on the edge? Those are all business decisions that need to be there into some framework. >> So you guys are going, we can go and go and go. But I want to follow up on your segway on containers. 'Cause containers is such an important part of this story and an enabler to this story. And you guys made and aggressive move with Hep TO. We've had Craig McLuckie on when he was still at Google and Dan, great guys. But it's kind of funny right? 'Cause three years ago, everyone was going to DockerCon right? That was like, we're all about shows. That was the hot show. Now Docker's kind of faded and Kubernetes is really taking off. Why, for people that aren't familiar with Kubernetes, they probably hear it at cocktail parties if they live in the Bay area. Why is containers such an important enabler and what's so special about Kubernetes specifically? >> Do you want to go on the general or? >> Why don't your start off? >> I brought my products stuff for sure. >> If you look at the world its getting much more dynamic. Particularly as you start to get more digitally decoupled applications, you're starting, we've come from a world where a virtual machine might have been up for months or years to all the sudden you have containers that are much more dynamic, allowed to scale quickly, and then they need to be orchestrated. And that's essentially what Kubernetes does, is really start to orchestrate that. And as we get more distributed workloads, you need to coordinate them. You need to be able to scale up as you need for performance etcetera So Kubernetes is an incredible technology that allows you really to optimize the placement of that. So just like the virtual machine changed how we compute, containers now gives us a much more flexible, portable, you can run on any infrastructure at any location. Closer to the data etcetera to do that. >> I think the bold move we made is, we finally, after working with customers and partners like Accenture, we have a very comprehensive strategy. We announced Project Tanzu at our last VM World. And Project Tanzu really focused on three aspects of containers, How do you build applications, which is what Pivotal and the acquisition of Pivotal was driven around. How do we run these on a robust enterprise class run time? And what if you could take every vSphere ESX out there and make it a container platform. Now we have half a million customers. 70 million VM's. All the sudden, that run time we are container enabling with a Project Pacific. So vSphere 7 becomes a common place for running containers and VMs. So that debate of VMs or containers? Done, gone. One place or just spend up containers and resources. And then the more important part is how do I manage this? As you have said. Becoming more of a platform, not just an orchestration technology. But a platform for how do I manage applications. Where I deploy them where it makes more sense. I've decoupled my application needs from the resources and Kubernetes is becoming that platform that allows me to portably. I'm the Java Weblogic guy, right? So this is like distributed Weblogic Java on steroids, running across clouds. So pretty exciting for a middleware guy, this is the next generation middleware. >> And to what you just said, that's the enabling infrastructure that will allow it to roll into future things like edge devices. >> Absolutely. >> You can manage an Edge client. You can literally-- >> the edge, yeah. 'Cause now you've got that connection. >> It's in the fabric that you are going to be able to connect. And networking becomes a key part. >> And one of the key things, and this is going to be the hard part is optimization. So how do we optimize across particularly performance but even cost? >> And security, rewiring security and availability. >> So still I think my all time favorite business book is Clayton Christensen, "Innovator's Dilemma". One of the most important lessons in that book is what are you optimizing for? And by rule, you can't optimize for everything equally. You have to rank order. But what I find really interesting in this conversation and where we're going and the complexity of the size of the data, the complexity of what am I optimizing for now just begs for plight AI. This is not a people problem to solve. This is AI moving fast. >> Smart infrastructure going to adapt. >> Right, so as you look at that opportunity to now apply AI over the top of this thing, opens up tremendous opportunity. >> Absolutely, I mean standardized infrastructure allows you, sorry, allows you to get more metrics. It allows you to build models to optimize infrastructure over time. >> And humans just can't get their head around it. I mean because you do have to optimize across multiple dimensions as performance, as cost. But then that performance is compute, it's the network. In fact the network's always going to be the bottleneck. So you look at it, even with 5G which is an order magnitude more band width, the network will still lag. You go back to Moore's Law, right? It's a, even though it's extended to 24 months, price performance doubles, so the amount of data potentially can exponentially grow our networks don't keep pace. So that optimization is constantly going to have to be tuned as we get even with increases in network we're going to have to keep balancing that. >> Right, but it's also the business optimization beyond the infrastructure optimization. For instance, if you are running a big power generation field of a bunch of turbines, right, you may want to optimize for maintenance 'cause things are running in some steady state but maybe there's an oil crisis or this or that, suddenly the price rises and you are like, forget the maintenance right now, we've got a revenue opportunity that we want to tweak. >> You just talked about which is in a dynamic industry. How do I real time change the behavior? And more and more policy driven, where the infrastructure is smart enough to react, based on the policy change you made. That's the world we want to get to and we are far away from that right now. >> I mean ultimately I think the Kubernetes controller gets an AI overlay and then operators of the future are tuning the AI engines that optimize it. >> Right, right. And then we run into the whole thing which we talked about many times in this building with Dr. Rumman Chowdhury from Accenture. Then you got the whole ethics overlay on top of the business and the optimization and everything else. That's a whole different conversation for another day. So, before we wrap I just want to give you kind of last thoughts. As you know customers are in all different stages of their journey. Hopefully, most of them are at least off the first square I would imagine on the monopoly board. What does, you know, kind of just top level things that you would tell people that they really need just to keep always at the top as they're starting to make these considerations? Starting to make these investments? Starting to move workloads around that they should always have at the top of their mind? >> For me it's very simple. It's really about focus on the business outcome. Leverage the best resource for the right need. And design architectures that are flexible that give you choice, you're not locked in. And look for strategic partners, whether it's technology partners or services partners that allow you to guide. Because if complexity is too high, the number of choices are too high, you need someone who has the breadth and depth to give you that platform which you can operate on. So we want to be the ubiquitous platform from a software perspective. Accenture wants to be that single partner who can help them guide on the journey. So, I think that would be my ask is start thinking about who are your strategic partners? What is your architecture and the choices you're making that give you the flexibility to evolve. Because this is a dynamic market. Once you make decisions today, may not be the ones you need in six months even. >> And that dynanicism is accelerating. If you look at it, I mean, we've all seen change in the industry, of decades in the industry. But the rate of change now, the pace, things are moving so quickly. >> And we need to respond to competitive or business oriented industry. Or any regulations. You have to be prepared for that. >> Well gentleman, thanks for taking a few minutes and great conversation. Clearly you're in a very good space 'cause it's not getting any less complicated any time soon. >> Well, thank you again. And thank you. >> All right, thanks. >> Thanks. >> Larry and Ajay, I'm Jeff, you're watching theCUBE. We are top of San Francisco in the Sales Force Tower at the Accenture Innovation Hub. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time.

>> It's theCUBE, covering AWS Summit, New York, 2018, brought to you by Amazon Web Services and its ecosystem partners. >> Here in New York City, we're live at Amazon Web Services AWS Summit. This is their big show that they take on the road. It kind of originates at Amazon re:Invent in Las Vegas, their big kickoff show for the year, and then goes out to the different geographies and goes out and talks to the customers, and actually rolls out all the greatest of the cloud from Amazon's perspective. Of course theCUBE covering it, wall-to-wall cloud coverage, I'm John Furrier, co-host with Jeff Frick here today in New York City for special coverage. Jeff, Amazon obviously continue to dominate, but competition is heating up, Google Nexus next week, we'll be there live. Microsoft's got a big show, Azure's gaining market share, Amazon's still racing ahead. They got a book they're giving out here called Ahead in the Cloud, Best Practices for Enterprise IT. Amazon, clearly we talk about this all the time, they've cleared the runway from winning the startups, small, medium-sized growing business in the cloud native, to actually putting big dent in the market share for acquiring large enterprise customers. That has been their mission, that's Andy Jackson's mission, that's the team. Their head count is growing, Jeff Bezos is the richest man in history of the world. Pretty impressive story, we've been covering it since 2012, >> What's crazy is it's barely got started, John. I mean, just looking up some numbers before we came on, Gardener has a bunch of projected public cloud cans, anywhere from 180 billion to 260 billion. So even with Amazon at the head of the pace, I can't remember their last statement, I think it was 18 billion run rate, and everybody's saying Microsoft's brewing so fast. They barely still scratch the surface, and that I think is what's really scary. There'll be 50,000 people probably at re:Invent, there's 10,000 here in New York, they have these summits all over the country, all over the world, and so as impressive as the story is, what I think is even crazier is we've barely just begun. You were just at Public Sector, that's a whole 'nother giant tranche that's growing. >> Well you started to see the ecosystem develop nicely, and cloud native certainly is a tailwind for overall Amazon. Obviously the have the winning cloud formula, they've been ahead for many, many years. But again, competition's keeping up. But if you look behind us, you probably can't see in the cameras, it doesn't give justice, but this show, it's in New York City, it's a regional kind of like event. Its now looking the size of what re:Invent was just a few years ago. Public Sector Summit, which is the global public sector that Teresa Carlson runs, in really its third year roughly since it got big, started out a couple years ago. That's now morphing into the size of re:Invent, so pretty massive. >> And they said there's 10,000 people here. I don't know how many were at Public Sector. 138 sponsors, just some of the numbers that Werner shared in the keynote. 80 sessions, really an education session, it's a one-day event. We're excited to be here, but what's amazing is even though pretty much every enterprise has something going on in the public cloud, in terms of the vast majority of the workload, still most of 'em are not, and you know, really an interesting play. We were there when the AWS VMware announcement was made a couple of years back in San Francisco, as kind of this migration path, that's both been really good for VMware, and also really good for Amazon, 'cause now they have an answer to the, kind of the enterprise legacy question. >> I mean Jeff, did you look at the big picture? If you want to squint through the noise of cloud, what's really going on is, one, the analysts that are looking at market share, I think are looking at old data. It's hard to know who's really winning when you look about revenue, 'cause everyone can bundle in, Microsoft bundles Office revenue in. So it's actually, that's hard to understand, but if you look at the overall big picture, the landscape that's happening is that the enterprise and IT market has moved from being consumerization of IT to digital transformation. Those are the two buzzwords. But really what's happening is the operational model of cloud has created two real personas in the enterprise from a technical perspective. The developers who are building apps, and operators who are running the infrastructure, running the software, running the dashboards, running the operations. And so you start to see that interplay between operators and developers working together but yet decoupled, different personas. These are the ones that are changing how work gets done. So the future of how work and computing is going to be applied for end user benefits, user benefits, consumers, whether it's B2B or B2C companies, the cloud is the power engine of innovation, and new apps are coming on faster, and the roles are changing, and this is causing a shift of value. This is what the analysts at Wikibon, theCUBE, insights team has been looking at is that this is really the big thing. And machine learning, and AI, really take advantage of that, and you're going to start to see IoT, security, AI, start to be the critical apps to take advantage of this power of the cloud, and as enterprises transform their operations and their development frameworks, then I think you're going to see a whole new level of innovation. >> Right. They just had Epic Games on, the company that makes Fortnite which is a huge global phenomenon. If you don't know anything about it, ask somebody who's under the age of 15, they'll tell you all about it. >> 135 million gamers. >> The core value proposition of cloud is still the same, its flexibility, its global reach, its ability to scale up and scale down, and we've asked this question before and we're getting closer and closer with each passing day, is if we live in a world, John, with infinite compute, infinite bandwidth and infinite store, basically priced at zero, asymptotically approaching zero. What could you build? And if you could get that to the entire world instantly, what could you build, and we're really getting closer and closer to that and it's a very different way to think about the world than where you have to provision at 50% overhead, and you got to buy it and plug it in and turn it on. You know, that world is over. We're not going back, I don't think. >> If you look at the cloud players you've got Microsoft, Amazon, Google, and then we throw Alibaba, that's more of a China thing. Those are the main ones, you got Oracle for Oracle and IBM in there. You look at the companies, and look at the ones that have consumer experience, and look at the ones that don't. Microsoft has failed on the consumer business, although they have some consumer stuff, really not really been successful. Oracle and Microsoft, IBM have been business to business companies. Google and Amazon have been consumer companies that have bolted on a cloud just to run their operations. So to me what's interesting is, which one of those sides of the street, which one will emerge as the victorious cloud platform. I think I would bet on the consumer side. I like Google, I like Amazon better than Azure and Oracle and IBM, mainly because they have consumer experience, they understand the ultimate end user, and built clouds for that, and now are rolling that business. So the question is will that be the better model than having Azure or Oracle or IBM, who know the business model-- >> Right. >> But yet, will the devices matter? So this is going to be a big thing that we're going to watch on theCUBE is, which cloud play will win, or does it matter? Is it winner take all, winner take most? >> Yeah. >> This is the questions. >> Pretty interesting. You know you interviewed Mark Hurd many moons ago, for a long time, and he talked about cloudifying all the Oracle applications. The problem is, Clayton Christensen's book, Innovator's Dilemma, is still the best business book ever written. It's really hard to knock off your own core business, especially when it's profitable. That I think is Oracle's biggest problem. The other thing I think they have is, they're a sales culture, it's built around a sales culture. People are going out and it's a hard sell. That's not what the cloud is all about. It's really the commercialization of shadow IT. I need it, I turn it on, I activate it, I don't need it anymore, I turn it down, I turn it off, I turn it over. So I think Oracle's in a tough position to eat their own business. IBM is you know, continues to try different things and you know, with The Weather Company and Ustream, and they're doing a lot of things. But the core three have such momentum, Google we'll see, we're excited to be there next week and kind of get an update on what their story is, but still in the enterprise they barely scratch the surface of the available workload. >> I think that's the main story, the surface is just being scratched. If this is like the first or second inning of this game, or the second game of a double header, as Matt Dew has said on theCUBE many times, he'll come on today, it's interesting because if you think about the clouds that are best position to take advantage of new technologies, like AI, like blockchain, like token economics, those are the ones that have to be adaptable and flexible enough to take on new things, because if we're just scratching the surface, the new things that are going to come out have to scale, have to be data driven, have to be mobile, have to use AI, have to have the compute power. If you're kind of stuck in the old model and you have a ME2 cloud, it's going to be always hard to ratchet up and kind of always rearchitect and change, you need an architecture that will essentially be flexible and be adaptive. To me I think that's what we're going to look for here in the interviews today, and of course, security, Jeff, continues to be the number one conversation, at AWS re:Invent, and AWS Public Sector Summit. Security is getting better and better in the cloud and some say it's better than on-premises security. >> I think the resources that can be applied at a company like AWS, the security teams, the technology, the hardening, the private fiber connections, I mean so many things that they can apply because they have such scale, that you just can't do as a private enterprise. The other thing, right, is that people usually take better care of their customers than their own, and we know a lot of security breaches and data breaches are just from employees or somebody lost a laptop. They're these types of things where if you're an actual vendor for someone else and you're responsible for their security, you're going to be a little bit different, a little bit more diligent than kind of protecting once you're already inside the wall. >> And it changes the infrastructure, I mean just in the news this week, obviously Trump was in Helsinki, all I can see in my mind is, the servers, where are the servers, where are the servers? With the cloud you don't need servers. The whole paradigm is shifting. If you use cloud you can get encryption, you can get security. These are things that are going to start that I think be the table stakes for security, the idea of having a server, provisioning a server, managing servers per se, unless you're a cloud service provider, at some level, you're tier two or tier one, you don't need servers. This is the serverless trend. Again, Lambda functions, AI, application developers, all driving change. Again, two personas, operators and developers. This is what the swim lanes are starting to look at, we're starting to get the visibility. And of course we'll get all the data here in theCUBE, and share that with you this week. Today in New York City, live theCUBE, I'm John Furrier with Jeff Frick. Stay with us for coverage here for AWS Summit 2018. We'll be right back.