>> Announcer: Live, from Silicon Valley, it's theCUBE, covering Google Cloud Next '17. (funky techno music) >> Welcome back to our live coverage here of Google Next 2017, an event that last year was focused only on Google Cloud. They've actually expanded a bit, they're talking about G Suite, talking about some of the devices, and they bring in a really broad and diverse community, so when I talk to the Google people, it's not one show, it's a handful of shows. I went to the analyst event. My guest for this segment is Chris Wahl, who came in through the community event. So, excited to get that angle. Chris, thanks so much for doing the drive with me from San Francisco down to Palo Alto. For those of us not in the area, it's a 45 minute drive, it's not too bad. It's a beautiful, sunny day. It's great to catch up with you and thanks for coming. >> Always glad to be on, love being a CUBE Alumni, so, I think it's my third time. >> Wow, a three-time Alumni. It's like if you've been a host of Saturday Night Live for like seven times, you know you get the special jacket. - Automatically. >> Things like that. You're getting up there. Three times. It's like, you're not quite in Pak Elsinger area, but you have passed, you've been on more than Andy Jassey now. >> Wow, cool. >> I think that that's pretty impressive. >> Bucket list, accomplished. >> Exactly, so, what brings you to the Google event and tell us a little bit about the community event. >> Yeah, to be honest, I thought it was a spam email at first. I just got an invite saying, hey, we have this Google event going on, and I'm not really plugged in to the Google Universe too much. So I said, cool, I'm interested, I'll take a look. Got invited out by Sarah Novotny to a community focus day. >> Host: Sarah's awesome. Also a CUBE Alum, of course. >> Yeah, Alum, and ran OSCON I think, as a boarder or some kind of management facility for quite a while. So yeah, the Google Cloud Next is this week but on Tuesday. They actually had a bunch of influencers, evangelists, community members, out to spend time with all sorts of Google-y Google-ers, talking around what their vision is around kind of bridging the gap to the enterprise, what their thought around Kubernetes, and just really the community in general were. Which was kind of cool because it was all fresh and clean and new for me. So, it was really great to taste the Kool-Aid, and see how delicious it could be. >> Yeah, so I'm curious what your take is. I remember I did a panel at Interop a couple of years ago, and it was like, basically, hyper-scale, you're-not-Google, so what do you need to do, how do you do it, do you just use Google stuff, can you code like Google, can you act like Google, or are you just an enterprise and you're forced to live in the past. >> I think over the last couple of years, the idea of the Sight Reliability Engineers come out and been more focused on the enterprise and kind of dovetailed into the Dev-Op story. So, it was really interesting to hear, not only trying to talk to the enterprise, but also how they're trying to get the enterprise to kind of stop being the traditional enterprise that it's been. Which I think entirely, it's something that we practitioners have always been trying to do. No one wants to be on-call all the time and fixing these flaming disasters and things like that. But at the same time, you have to recognize that moving that much intrinsic culture poison from one side to the next is hard. They're admitting that too, it's like, we wold love for you guys to be more Google-y, and to use the tools that we have here, but we're not sure you even know what the tools are or how to use them, or what kind of documentation is necessary, or what meet-ups we can go to find my people, you know, the practitioners. >> I want to channel our friends, the Geek Whisperers, and alright Chris, so how did you transition out of being a VMware guy to someone that does cool and interesting things now, because VMware is no longer the coolness. >> That's been the vibe, yeah. It's something I personally have been trying to, I don't think in any technology you want to be that technology specific. VMware, love it, have been doing it for 12 something years, but you don't just want to be pigeon-holed in that kind of silo. Which is actually why I wanted to come out and talk with the folks at Google around what they're doing to build a community. I think it was Sam something-or-other-- >> Host: Sam Ramji. >> Sam Ramji actually came up and said, you know, as long as we're going to exist as a company, we're going to have this community day. It's the first one they've done, and they plan to do it basically infinitely forever, because they realized they had the analysts, and things like that out there, they had all the engineers and developers, but what were they missing? The folk in the trenches that are trying to adopt and use this sort of technology. I like that aspect of it. There weren't any huge, mind-shattering results that were out there, except for I think, me personally, I like that Google kind of admitted that yeah, they hadn't been doing the best job around interfacing with the community and getting IT practitioners and operation-centric folks into the fold, welcoming into the bosom of Google, and that they were trying to work on that. And it's like, okay, awesome. Let's have a conversation, which the other half of the day was an un-conference, where we literally broke up into groups, that we decided ourselves as like a democracy of Google decision-making. We formed eight different groups. Some focused on containers, I actually sat in in a two hour session where we just kind of riffed on abstraction layers and where we should we start working. Is it at the container level, is it at the hypervisor level, is it at the virtual machine level? And it was neat because everyone had a completely different idea and background around that. I felt like I was an alien in that conversation for a lot of it 'cause they're working on solving problems that are totally alien to my world. So I liked all that. >> It's an interesting crowd when the server-less stuff got talked about in the keynote today-- >> Yes! >> There was a big clap and I loved Brian Stevens. He's like, functions are just fragments of code, and they get applause, you know, he's kind of like-- (Chris laughs) >> It's like either remark, I got applause for that. >> Yeah, yeah, it's pretty funny. But you know, that's the kind of people that come to this show, right? So, you checked out a thing called, what was it, Code Labs or something like that? Maybe you could talk a little bit about that. >> Yeah, yeah, there was, I had some notes there that I'd written down. Certification in Code Labs, specifically. So Code Labs was interesting 'cause it's a place that you can, you have to book it in advance, like a day in advance, and from about 11 to seven each day, they just have Google-y Google-ers, you know, very Google-y people out there that say alright, here's all our various APIs, such as the new one where you can query a video and say I'm looking for, I think in the keynote, they had "find me baseball" in this video, and it actually shows you in the timeline where baseball occurs. There's also things to do image tagging and things like that. And, I don't know, it might be difficult to grasp that API interaction at first. And so you can sit down, and they'll show you how to write code in the languages of your choice. Obviously Go is very prominent. I'm a PowerShell developer, so it's like, alright, how would you write that in Curl, and that's maybe our bridge to one another, since I don't know Go and they don't know PowerShell, or the person I was working with. So that was cool, to hear how they approach those things, because I've typically done it as an Ops person. I'm typically looking at it from the perspective of I'm trying to automate some task and feed it into an orchestration engine. And I'm not super deep on APIs in general, I like them, but ... That was cool, I liked that you're basically getting to meet with really, really awesome engineers and SREs to pick their brain and their vast decades of experience on writing code. To work with APIs and things that are Google-centric. So that was awesome. >> So it sounds like you didn't feel like this was a marketing show, right, - [Chris] No! >> that they bring in the engineers, the technical people, I mean it's not far being from San Franscisco from the Google-Plex, the Mothership is nearby. >> Thats's a good point because a lot of these shows have just become a sales pitch in a wolf's clothing or a conference clothing, and this was ... I've never met so many really, really talented engineers all concentrated in one spot. I mean, you've got the rock stars that I think everybody knows, like Sarah, and Kelsey, that are very available and personable, but you also have a whole army of people that have a huge amount of passion around writing code and understand what your problems are and wanting to talk to you. I felt like a person, which I've been a Google customer since, I guess, Google came out, you know, Google apps and things like that. This is really the first time I really started putting faces to the technical practitioners that work there, and they're really interested and excited with what my mundane kind of problems. So, that's kind of cool. >> Yeah, I found they're definitely, they're listening, they're talking, it's really good, because right, we at our firm, we've used Google for a while and it's like, oh wait I have a challenge. Who do I call, who do I email? Nope, you should just watch the YouTube video and use it. C'mon, aren't you smart enough to use these things right? You know, was kind of how we all felt for a while. Interesting. Kinder, gentler Google than we've knew in the past? >> They had the Google leaders circle and the various groups that you could join online, but it was just, you can't fake that kind of raw passion, and I sat down with some of the SREs at the community day, and it was really just, talk to me about what you do, and why, and what tools you use, and what can we do to be better? More specifically, the Dev Rel, the developer relations folks were just awesome. And they're like, is our title threatening? What meet-up should we go to? What can we do to make your life better? And I just kind of, at first, said a few comments and realized, no, this is real. They want to know my day one and day two operations, so that they can find the right tools, or if there isn't one, build one. And I don't know, that's great. I've never seen that at a conference before. So I'm hooked. I definitely plan to go again. >> Alright, so anything you didn't see that you were hoping to see, follow-up that you want to have, other cool stuff going on that you want to share? >> I almost want to do like a plea to Google that throughout the community today and at the conference, there's been a lot of commentary and some, kind of some references to, oh we don't want to tell you how to do things, we don't want to tell you how to build architecture in a certain way. Please do tell me how to do those things. At least give me a reference architecture, or some example environments, because I feel like a lot of it is just, here's some cool things you can do, kind of in isolation. Or here are some things with Kubernetes that kind of exist outside of reality. I'm looking for, alright, I don't have any of that stuff, how do I onboard into that? Here's a white paper, and that kind of jazz. >> Yeah, and we saw, you know, I hate to always bring up AWS, but AWS went from here's this giant toolbox with all these things to right, here's some services, here are some tracks, here are some, not wizards, but you know, templates you can follow for certain things. Here are people that are probably similar to you and, boy, with Google with their AI and ML and all their things that they can do to help us sort out all the TLAs that they've got to. (Chris laughs) You know, they should be able to help going forward because, yeah, Google should be able to personalize all that to be able to work a little bit better for us as opposed to us having to just kind of figure it out a little bit. I know you played with the Google Cloud a little bit yourself-- - Yeah. >> And it wasn't as simple as you were hoping, right? >> It was hard. (both laugh) I mean-- >> Host: C'mon, if you can't figure it out, you know-- >> I don't feel like I'm the sharpest tool in the shed, but I was like, I'm kind of the representative layman ops person, and it felt very convoluted, complex, the documentation was fragmented. I'm like, just give me the wizard so that I can start fishing for myself. I just do that first hit for free, and then I'll take care of it beyond that. So, that would be my one ask to Google as a whole, but otherwise I think the tooling and the people, and the culture are all there, it's just build a few more things and I think we've got some interesting entanglements at the enterprise level once that's done. >> Okay, want to give me the final word, what's going on with you other than, your hometown, your new hometown of Austin, Texas. South By coming, so I know there's a lot of music and fun going on but, what's happening in your world, what's happening with Rubrik? >> Oh yeah, I'll mention South By, definitely will be there, I will not be available online or anything. I'm going to be going into sequester mode and just listen to music with my co-host actually. If you listen to the Datanauts podcast, with Ethan Banks, he's going to come by. So, we'll be at the show I guess if you want to hang out with us, hit us up. Otherwise, Rubrik's been awesome. It's definitely a rocket ship ride and it was actually dove-tailed into quite a few conversations I had while at Google Next. Because movement of data into and around clouds is non-trivial, so that's where the Cloud Data Management world that we're in, kind of fits into that equation, and why I personally wanted to go to this show, but also professionally I thought that there'd be some inroads there to discuss with the other practitioners. >> Absolutely, the whole infrastructure side and how that plays in the public cloud, how it plays with Sass, there's a lot of those discussions going on. Congrats, you guys have been growing some good buzz. You guys have been hiring, too, so check Chris out for all that. We'll be back, lots more coverage here of the Google Cloud Next 2017, you're watching theCUBE. (funky techno music)

>> Hey welcome back everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE, we are on the ground in downtown San Francisco at the Google Next 17 Conference. It's this crazy conference week, and arguably this is the center of all the action. Cloud is big, Google Cloud Platform is really coming out with a major enterprise shift and focus, which they've always had, but now they're really getting behind it. And I think this conference is over 14,000 people, has grown quite a bit from a few years back, and we're really excited to have one of the powerhouse partners with Google, who's driving to the enterprise, and that's Intel, and I'm really excited to be joined by Raejeanne Skillern, she's the VP and GM of the Cloud Platform Group, Raejeanne, great to see you. >> Thank you, thanks for having me. >> Yeah absolutely. So when we got this scheduled, I was thinking, wow, last time I saw you was at the Open Compute Project 2015, and we were just down there yesterday. >> Yesterday. And we missed each other yesterday, but here we are today. >> So it's interesting, there's kind of the guts of the cloud, because cloud is somebody else's computer that they're running, but there is actually a computer back there. Here, it's really kind of the front end and the business delivery to people to have the elastic capability of the cloud, the dynamic flexibility of cloud, and you guys are a big part of this. So first off, give us a quick update, I'm sure you had some good announcements here at the show, what's going on with Intel and Google Cloud Platform? >> We did, and we love it all, from the silicon ingredients up to the services and solutions, this is where we invest, so it's great to be a part of yesterday and today. I was on stage earlier today with Urs Holzle talking about the Google and Intel Strategic Alliance, we actually announced this alliance last November, between Diane Green and Diane Bryant of Intel. And we had a history, a decade plus long of collaborating on CPU level optimization and technology optimization for Google's infrastructure. We've actually expanded that collaboration to cover hybrid cloud orchestration, security, IOT edge to cloud, and of course, artificial intelligence, machine learning, and deep learning. So we still do a lot of custom work with Google, making sure our technologies run their infrastructure the best, and we're working beyond the infrastructure to the software and solutions with them to make sure that those software and solutions run best on our architecture. >> Right cause it's a very interesting play, with Google and Facebook and a lot of the big cloud providers, they custom built their solutions based on their application needs and so I would presume that the microprocessor needs are very specific versus say, a typical PC microprocessor, which has a more kind of generic across the board type of demand. So what are some of the special demands that cloud demands from the microprocessor specifically? >> So what we've seen, right now, about half the volume we ship in the public cloud segment is customized in some way. And really the driving force is always performance per dollar TCO improvement. How to get the best performance and the lowest cost to pay for that performance. And what we've found is that by working with the top, not just the Super Seven, we call them, but the Top 100, closely, understanding their infrastructure at scale, is that they benefit from more powerful servers, with performance efficiency, more capability, more richly configured platforms. So a lot of what we've done, these cloud service providers have actually in some cases pushed us off of our roadmap in terms of what we can provide in terms of performance and scalability and agility in their infrastructure. So we do a lot of tweaks around that. And then of course, as I mentioned, it's not just the CPU ingredients, we have to optimize in the software level, so we do a lot of co-engineering work to make sure that every ounce of performance and efficiency is seen in their infrastructure. And that's how they, their data center is their cost to sales, they can't afford to have anything inefficient. So we really try to partner to make sure that it is completely tailor-optimized for that environment. >> Right, and the hyperscale, like you said, the infrastructure there is so different than kind of classic enterprise infrastructure, and then you have other things like energy consumption, which, again, at scale, itty bitty little improvements >> It's expensive. >> Make a huge impact. And then application far beyond the cloud service providers, so many of the applications that we interact with now today on a day to day basis are cloud-based applications, whether it is the G Suite for documents or this or that, or whether it's Salesforce, or whether we just put in Asana for task tracking, and Slack, and so many of these things are now cloud-based applications, which is really the way we work more and more and more on our desktops. >> Absolutely. And one of the things we look at is, applications really have kind of a gravity. Some applications are going to have a high affinity to public cloud. You see Tustin Dove, you see email and office collaboration already moving into the public cloud. There are some legacy applications, complex, some of the heavier modeling and simulation type apps, or big huge super computers that might stay on premise, and then you have this middle ground of applications, that, for various reasons, performance, security, data governance, data gravity, business need or IP, could go between the public cloud or stay on premise. And that's why we think it's so important that the world recognizes that this really is about a hybrid cloud. And it's really nice to partner with Google because they see that hybrid cloud as the end state, or they call it the Multi Cloud. And their Kubernetes Orchestration Platform is really designed to help that, to seamlessly move those apps from on a customer's premise into the Google environment and have that flow. So it's a very dynamic environment, we expect to see a lot of workloads kind of continue to be invested and move into the public cloud, and people really optimizing end-to-end. >> So you've been in the data center space, we talked a little bit before we went live, you've been in the data center space for a long, long time. >> Long time. >> We won't tell you how long. (laughing) >> Both: Long time. >> So it must be really exciting for you to see this shift in computing. There's still a lot of computing power at the edge, and there's still a lot of computing power now in our mobile devices and our PCs, but so much more of the heavy lift in the application infrastructure itself is now contained in the data center, so much more than just your typical old-school corporate data centers that we used to see. Really fun evolution of the industry, for you. >> Absolutely, and the public cloud is now one of the fastest growing segments in the enterprise space, in the data center space, I should say. We still have a very strong enterprise business. But what I love is it's not just about the fact that the public cloud is growing, this hybrid really connects our two segments, so I'm really learning a lot. It's also, I've been at Intel 23 years, most of it in the data center, and last year, we reorganized our company, we completely restructured Intel to be a cloud and IoT company. And from a company that for multiple decades was a PC or consumer-based client device company, it is just amazing to have data center be so front and center and so core to the type of infrastructure and capability expansion that we're going to see across the industry. We were talking about, there isn't going to be an industry left untouched by technology. Whether it's agriculture, or industrial, or healthcare, or retail, or logistics. Technology is going to transform them, and it all comes back to a data center and a cloud-based infrastructure that can handle the data and the scale and the processing. >> So one of the new themes that's really coming on board, next week will it be a Big Data SV, which has grown out of Hadoop and the old big data conversation. But it's really now morphing into the next stage of that, which is machine learning, deep learning, artificial intelligence, augmented reality, virtual reality, so this whole 'nother round that's going to eat up a whole bunch of CPU capacity. But those are really good cloud-based applications that are now delivering a completely new level of value and application sophistication that's driven by power back at the data center. >> Right. We see, artificial intelligence has been a topic since the 50s. But the reality is, the technology is there today to both capture and create the data, and compute on the data. And that's really unlocking this capabilities. And from us as a company, we see it as really something that is going to not just transform us as a business but transform the many use cases and industries we talked about. Today, you or I generate about a gig and a half of data, through our devices and our PC and tablet. A smart factory or smart plane or smart car, autonomous car, is going to generate terabytes of data. Right, and that is going to need to be stored. Today it's estimated only about 5% of the data captured is used for business insight. The rest just sits. We need to capture the data, store the data efficiently, use the data for insights, and then drive that back into the continuous learning. And that's why these technologies are so amazing, what they're going to be able to do, because we have the technology and the opportunity in the business space, whether it's AI for play or for good or for business, AI is going to transform the industry. >> It's interesting, Moore's Law comes up all the time. People, is Moore's Law done, is Moore's Law done? And you know, Moore's Law is so much more than the physics of what he was describing when he first said that in the first place, about number of transistors on a chip. It's really about an attitude, about this unbelievable drive to continue to innovate and iterate and get these order of magnitude of increase. We talked to David Floyer at OCP yesterday, and he's talking about it's not only the microprocessors and the compute power, but it's the IO, it's the networking, it's storage, it's flash storage, it's the interconnect, it's the cabling, it's all these things. And he was really excited that we're getting to this massive tipping point, of course in five years we'll look back and think it's archaic, of these things really coming together to deliver low latency almost magical capabilities because of this combination of factors across all those different, kind of the three horseman of computing, if you will, to deliver these really magical, new applications, like autonomous vehicles. >> Absolutely. And we, you'll hear Intel talk about Jevons Paradox, which is really about, if you take something and make it cheaper and easier to consume, people will consume more of it. We saw that with virtualization. People predicted oh everything's going to slow down cause you're going to get higher utilization rates. Actually it just unlocked new capabilities and the market grew because of it. We see the same thing with data. Our CEO will talk about, data is the new oil. It is going to transform, it's going to unlock business opportunity, revenue growth, cost savings in environment, and that will cause people to create more services, build new businesses, reach more people in the industry, transform traditional brick and mortar businesses to the digital economy. So we think we're just on the cusp of this transformation, and the next five to 10 years is going to be amazing. >> So before we let you go, again, you've been doing this for 20 plus years, I wasn't going to say anything, she said it, I didn't say it, and I worked at Intel the same time, so that's good. As you look forward, what are some of your priorities for 2017, what are some of the things that you're working on, that if we get together, hopefully not in a couple years at OCP, but next year, that you'll be able to report back that this is what we worked on and these are some of the new accomplishments that are important to me? >> So I'm really, there's a number of things we're doing. You heard me mention artificial intelligence many, many times. In 2016, Intel made a number of significant acquisitions and investments to really ensure we have the right technology road map for artificial intelligence. Machine learning, deep learning, training and inference. And we've really shored up that product portfolio, and you're going to see these products come to market and you're going to see user adoption, not just in my segment, but transforming multiple segments. So I'm really excited about those capabilities. And a lot of what we'll do, too, will be very vertical-based. So you're going to see the power of the technology, solving the health care problem, solving the retail problem, solving manufacturing, logistics, industrial problems. So I like that, I like to see tangible results from our technology. The other thing is the cloud is just growing. Everybody predicted, can it continue to grow? It does. Companies like Google and our other partners, they keep growing and we grow with them, and I love to help figure out where they're going to be two or three years from now, and get our products ready for that challenge. >> Alright, well I look forward to our next visit. Raejeanne, thanks for taking a few minutes out of your time and speaking to us. >> It was nice to see you again. >> You too. Alright, she's Raejeanne Skillern and I'm Jeff Frick, you're watching theCUBE, we're at the Google Cloud Next Show 2017, thanks for watching. (electronic sounds)

>> (upbeat music) >> production: From around the globe, it's the Cube covering Google cloud Next on-Air 20. (Upbeat music) >> Welcome back. I'm Stu Miniman and this is the CUBE coverage of Google cloud Next on Air 20. Of course, the nine week distributed all online program that Google cloud is doing and going to be talking about, of course, multi-cloud, Google of course had a big piece in multi-cloud. When they took what was originally Borg, They built Kubernetes. They made that open source and gave that to the CNCF and one of Google's partners and a leader in that space is of course, Red Hat. Happy to welcome to the program Sathish Balakrishnan, he is the Vice President of hosted platforms at Red Hat. Sathish, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you. It's great to be here with you on Google Cloud Native insights. >> Alright. So I, I tied it up, of course, you know, we talk about, you know, the hybrid multicloud and open, you know, two companies. I probably think of the most and that I've probably said the most about the open cloud are Google and Red Hat. So maybe if we could start just, uh, you hosted platforms, help us understand what that is. And, uh, what was the relationship between Red Hat and the Open Shift team and Google cloud? >> Absolutely. Great question. And I think Google has been an amazing partner for us. I think we have a lot of things going on with them upstream in the community. I think, you know, we've been with Google and the Kubernetes project since the beginning and you know, like the second biggest contributor to Kubernetes. So we have great relationships upstream. We also made Red Hat Enterprise Linux as well as Open Shift available on Google. So we have customers using both our offerings as well as our other offerings on Google cloud as well. And more recently with the hosted our offerings. You know, we actually manage Open Shift on multiple clouds. We relaunched our Open Shift dedicated offering on Google cloud back at Red Hat Summit. There's a lot of interest for the offering. We had back offered the offering in 2017 with Open Shift Three and we just relaunched this with Open Shift Four and we received considerable interest for the Google cloud Open Shift dedicated offering. >> Yeah, Sathish maybe it makes sense if we talk about kind of the maturation of open source solutions, managed services has seen really tremendous growth, something we've seen, especially if we were talking about in the cloud space. Maybe if you could just walk us through a little bit out that, you know, what are you hearing from customers? How does Red Hat think about managed solutions? >> Absolutely. Stu, I think it was a good question, right? I think, uh, as we say, the customers are looking at, you know, multiple infrastructure footprints, Be iteither the public cloud or on-prem. They'll start looking at, you know, if I go to the cloud, you know, there's this concept of, I want something to be managed. So what Open Shift is doing is in Open Shift, as you know it's Red Hat's hybrid cloud platform and with Open Shift, all the things that we strive to do is to enable the vision of the Open Hybrid Cloud. Uh, so, but Open Hybrid Cloud, it's all about choice, So we want to make sure the customers have both the managed as well as the self managed option. Uh, so if you really look at it, you know, Red Hat has multiple offerings from a managed standpoint. One as you know, we have Open Shift dedicated, which runs from AWS and Google. And, you know, we just have, as I mentioned earlier. We relaunched our Google service at Red Hat Summit back in May. So that's actually getting a lot of traction. We also have joint offerings with Azure that we announced a couple of years back and, there's a lot of interest for that offering as well as the new offering that we announced post-summit, the Amazon-Red Hat Open Shift, which basically is another native offering that we have on Amazon. If you really look at, having, having spoken about these offerings, if you really look at Red Hat's evolution as a managed service provider in the public cloud, we've been doing this since 2011. You know, that's kind of surprising for a lot of people, but you know, we've been doing Open Shift online, which is kind of a multi-tenant parcel multi-talent CaaS solution 2011. And we are one of the earliest providers of managed kubernetes, you know, along with Google Kubernetes engine GKE, we are our Open Shift dedicated offering back in 2015. So we've been doing Kubernetes managed since, Open Shift 3.1. So that's actually, you know, we have a lot of experience with management of Kubernetes and, you know, the devolution of Open Shift we've now made it available and pretty much all the clouds. So that customers have that exact same experience that they can get any one cloud across all clouds, as well as on-prem. Managed service customers now have a choice of a self managed Open Shift or completely managed Open Shift. >> Yeah. You mentioned the choice and one of the challenges we have right now is there's really the paradox of choice. If you look in the Kubernetes space, you know, there are dozens of offerings. Of course, every cloud provider has their offerings. You know, Google's got GKE, they have Anthos, uh, they, they have management tools around there. You, you talked a bit about the, you know, the experience and all the customers you have, the, you know, there's one of the fighters talks about, there's no compression algorithm for experience. So, you know, what is Red Hat Open Shift? What really differentiates in the market place from, you know, so many of the other offerings, either from the public high providers, some of the new startups, that we should know. >> Yeah. I think that's an interesting question, right? I think all Google traders start with it's complete open source and, you know, we are a complete open source company. So there is no proprietary software that we put into Open Shift. Open Shift, basically, even though it has, you know, OC command, it basically has CPR. So you can actually use native Google networks as you choose on any Google network offering that you have be it GKE, EKS or any of the other things that are out there. So that's why I think there are such things with google networks and providers and Red Hat does not believe in open provider. It completely believes in open source. We have everything that we is open source. From an it standpoint, the value prop for Red Hat has always been the value of the subscription, but we actually make sure that, you know, Google network is taken from an upstream product. It's basically completed productized and available for the enterprise to consume. But that right, when we have the managed offering, we provide a lot more benefits to it, right? The benefits are right. We actually have customer zero for Open Shift. So what does that mean? Right. We will not release Open Shift if we can't run open Shift dedicated or any of their (indistinct) out Open Shift for them is under that Open Shift. Really really well. So you won't get a software version out there. The second thing is we actually run a lot of workloads, but then Red Hat that are dependent on our managed or open shift off. So for example, our billing systems, all of those internal things that are important for Red Hat run on managed Open Shift, for example, managed Open Shift. So those are the important services for Red Hat and we have to make sure that those things are running really, really well. So we provide that second layer of enterprise today. Then having put Open Shift online, out that in public. We have 4 million applications and a million developers that use them. So that means, I've been putting it out there in the internet and, you know, there's security hosts that are constantly being booked that are being plugged in. So that's another benefit that you get from having a product that's a managed service, but it also is something that enterprises can now use it. From an Open Shift standpoint, the real difference is we add a lot of other things on top of google network without compromising the google network safety. That basically helps customers not have to worry about how they're going to get the CIC pipeline or how they have to do a bunch of in Cobra Net as an outside as the inside. Then you have technologies like Store Street Metrics kind of really help customers not to obstruct the way the containerization led from that. So those are some of the benefits that we provide with Open Shift. >> Yeah. So, so, so Sathish, as it's said, there's lots of options when it comes to Kubernetes, even from a Red Hat offering, you've got different competing models there. If I look inside your portfolio, if it's something that I want to put on my infrastructure, if I haven't read the Open Shift container platform, is that significantly different from the managed platform. Maybe give us a little compare contrast, you know. What do I have to do as a customer? Is the code base the same? Can I do, you know, hybrid environments between them and you know, what does that mean? >> It's a smart questions. It's a really, really good question that you asked. So we actually, you know, as I've said, we add a lot of things on top of google network to make it really fast, but do you want to use the cast, you can use the desktop. So one of the things we've found, but you know, what we've done with our managed offering is we actually take Open Shift container platform and we manage that. So we make sure that you get like a completely managed source, you know. They'll be managed, the patching of the worker nodes and other things, which is, again, another difference that we have with the native Cobra Net of services. We actually give plush that admin functionality to customers that basically allows them to choose all the options that they need from an Open Shift container platform. So from a core base, it's exactly the same thing. The only thing is, it's a little bit opinionated. It to start off when we deploy the cluster for the customer and then the customer, if they want, they can choose how to customize it. So what this really does is it takes away any of the challenges the customer may have with like how to install and provision a cluster, which we've already simplified a lot of the open shift, but with the managed the Open Shift, it's actually just a click of it. >> Great. Sathish Well, I've got the trillion dollar question for you. One of the things we've been looking at for years of course, is, you know, what do I keep in my data center? What do I move to the cloud? How do I modernize it? We understand it's a complex and nuanced solution, but you talk to a lot of customers. So I, you know, here in 2020, what's the trends? What are some of the pieces that you're seeing some change and movement that, you know, might not have been the case a year ago? >> I think, you know, this is an interesting question and it's an evolving question, right? And it's something that if you ask like 10 people you'll get real answers, but I'm trying to generalize what I've seen just from all the customer conversations I've been involved. I think one thing is very clear, right? I think that the world is right as much as anybody may want to say that I'm going to go to a single cloud or I'm going to just be on prem. It is inevitable that you're going to basically end up with multiple infrastructure footprint. It's either multicloud or it's on Prem versus a single cloud or on prem versus multiple cloud. So the main thing is that, we've been noticing as, what customers are saying in a whole. How do I make sure that my developers are not confused by all these difference than one? How do I give them a consistent way to develop and build their applications? Not really worry about, what is the infrastructure. What is the footprint that they're actually servicing? So that's kind of really, really important. And in terms of, you know, things that, you know, we've seen customers, you know, I think you always start with compliance requirements and data regulations. Back there you got to figure it out. What compliance do I need? And as the infrastructure or the platform that I'm going to go to meet the compliance requirements that I have, and what are the data regulations? You know, what is the data I'm going to be setting? Is it going to meet the data submitted rules that my country or my geo has? I got to make sure I worry about that. And then I got to figure out if I'm going to basically more to the cloud from the data center or from one cloud to another cloud. I might just be doing a lift or shift. Am I doing a transformation? What is it that I really worry about? In addition to the transformation, they got to figure it out, or I need to do that. Do I not need to do that? And then, you know, we've got to figure out what your data going to set? What your database going to look in? And do you need to connect to some legacy system that you have on prem? Or how do you go? How do you have to figure that out and give them all of these complexities? This is really, really common for any large enterprise that has like an enterprise ID for that multi-cloud. That's basically in multiple geographies, servicing millions of customers. So that has a lot of experience doing all these things. We have open innovation labs, which are really, really awesome experience for customers. Whether they take a small project, they figured out how to change things. Not only learn how to change things from a technology standpoint, but also learn how to culturally change things, because a lot of these things. So it's not just moving from one infrastructure to another, but also learning how to do things differently. Then we have things like the container adoption programmer, which is like, how do you take a big legacy monolith application? How do you containerize it? How do you make it micro services? How do you make sure that you're leveraging the real benefits that you're going to get out of moving to the cloud or moving to a container platform? And then we have a bunch of other things like, how do you get started with Open Shift and all of that? So we've had a lot of experience with like our 2,400 plus customers doing this kind of really heavy workload migration and lifting. So the customers really get the benefits that they see out of Open Shift. >> Yeah. So Sathish, if I think about Google, specifically talking about Google cloud, one of the main reasons we hear customers using Google is to have access to the data services. They have the AI services they have. So how does that tie into what we were just talking about? If I, if I use Open Shift and you know. I'm living in Google cloud, can, can I access all of those cloud native services? Are there any nuances things I need to think about to be able to really unleash that innovation of the platform that I'm tying into? >> Yeah, absolutely not. Right. I think it's a great question. And I think customers are always wondering about. Hey, if I use Open Shift, am I going to be locked out of using the cloud services? And if anything run out as antilock. We want to make sure that you can use the best services that you need for your enterprise, like the strategy as well as for applications. So with that, right. And we've developed the operator framework, which I think Google has been a very early supporter of. They've built a lot of operators around their services. So you can develop those operators to monitor the life cycle of these services, right from Open Shift. So you can actually connect to an AI service if you want. That's absolutely fine. You can connect the database services as well. And you can leverage all of those things while your application runs on Open Shift from Google cloud. Also I think that done us right. We recognize that, when you're talking about the open hybrid cloud, you got to make sure that customers can actually leverage services that are the same across different clouds. So when you can actually leverage the Google services from On Prem as well, if you choose to have localized services. We have a large catalog of operators that we have in our operator hub, as well as in the Red Hat marketplace that you can actually go and leverage from third party, third party ISV, so that you're basically having the same consistent experience if you choose to. But based on the consistent experience, that's not tied to a cloud. You can do that as well. But we would like for customers to use any service that they want, right from Open Shift without any restrictions. >> Yeah. One of the other things we've heard a lot from Google over the last year or so has been, you know, just helping customers, especially for those mission, critical business, critical applications, things like SAP. You talked a bit about databases. What advice would you give customers these days? They're, they're looking at, you know, increasing or moving forward in their cloud journeys. >> I think it sounds as an interesting question because I think customers really have to look at, you know, what is the ID and technology strategy? What are the different initiatives to have? Is it digital transformation? Is it cloud native development? Is it just containerization or they have an overarching theme over? They've got to really figure that out and I'm sure they're looking at it. They know which one is the higher priority when all of them are interrelated and in some ways. They also got to figure out how they going to expand to new business. Because I think as we said, right, ID is basically what is driving personal software is eating the load. Software services are editing them. So you got to figure out, what are your business needs? Do you need to be more agile? Do you need to enter new businesses? You know, those are kind of important things. For example, BMW is a great example, they use Open Shift container platform as well as they use Open Shift dedicated, you know. They are like a hundred hundred plus year old car, guess, you know what they're trying to do. They're actually now becoming connected car infrastructure. That's the main thing that they're trying to build so that they can actually service the cars in any job. So in one shoe, they came from a car manufacturing company to now focus on being a SAS, an Edge and IOT company. If you really look at the cars as like the internet of things on an edge computer and what does that use case require? That use case cannot anymore have just one data center in Munich, they have to basically build a global platform of data centers or they can really easily go to the cloud. And then they need to make sure that that application double close when they're starting to run on multiple clouds, multiple geographies, they have the same abstraction layer so that they can actually apply things fast. Develop fast. They don't have to worry about the infrastructure frequently. And that's basically why they started using Open Shift. And don't know why they're big supporters of Open Shift. And then I think it's the right mission for their use. So I think it really depends on, you know, what the customer is looking for, but irrespective of what they're looking for, I think Open Shift nicely fits in because what it does, is it provides you that commonality across all infrastructure footprints. It gives you all the productivity gains and it allows you to connect to any service that you want anywhere because we are agnostic to that and as well as we bring a whole lot of services from Red Hat marketplace so you can actually leverage your status. >> Well, Sathish Balakrishnan, thank you so much for the updates. Great to hear about the progress you've got with your customers. And thank you for joining us on the Google cloud Next On Air Event. >> Thank you Stu. It's been great talking to you and look forward to seeing you in person one day. >> Alright. I'm Stu Miniman. And thank you as always for watching the Cube. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)

(intense orchestral music) >> Hello and welcome to this special VMworld preview, I'm John Furrier, co-host of theCUBE, here in the Silicon Valley, Palo Alto offices for theCUBE. I'm here with Peter Burris, head of research at SiliconANGLE media and Wikibon team. We're hear kickin' off, what we're going to talk about at VMworld, what we expect to see at the event in Las Vegas; and what are some of the highlights from the news, what's going to be discussed. Peter, great to see you. >> Great to be here John. >> I know you've been workin' hard, we're going to talk about this new true private cloud report that you put out, very comprehensive, a lot to go through, so, we're going to digest that, we're going to unpack that. But first, we're going to have theCUBE there for you know three days. >> Two sets right? >> Two sets. So, second year in a row we have two sets at VMworld. 72 thought leaders and interviews in the middle of the hang space, if you're going to to to VMworld, go to the hang space and look for us, come say hello there's some little cough areas to hang out. Come visit us, say hello, check in if you're an influencer, we're going to come preview some new technology we're going to show there, so, don't forget to ask about that, take a look at the video or the variety of tools we have with theCUBE Digital Tooling and Video Services. But, most notably, there's going to be a lot of headline news, Andy Jassy's going to be giving a keynote, we've got that confirmed on Twitter; and a lot of discussion around the future of the data center, future of IT, certainly of how cloud and on-premises are going to intersect. This is has been a groundbreaking report from Wikibon for the third year of the true private cloud report. So let's unpack that, because I think this is a notable backdrop to VMworld is that as everyone's been saying hybrid cloud, now multi cloud, essentially the same thing. The cloud is a great resource, on-premises (laughs) is not going away. It used to be aspirational to have this notion of having cloud operations. Your report is now definitively saying it's no longer aspirational, it's actually happening. So take a minute to explain the report in it's third year some of the key findings. >> Well the, we might want to, we want to step back a little bit and say what's goin' on with VMware? Because VMware's progress and both what it's enabling, and what constraints it still faces, are going to have a lot to do with what happens in the report. But speaking about the report specifically, True private cloud was a concept that David Floyer, Stu Miniman, kind of devised a number of years ago, and the simple observation is that ultimately a lot of hardware vendors, a lot of system vendors, were just taking the word cloud and slapping it on their hardware and saying oh here's our replacement strategy, does it have anything to do with cloud? Well, kind of, yeah, but not really. And their observation was increasingly, customers are going to want that cloud experience and the basic notion of true private cloud, and what all of our research shows, is that inevitably what's going to happen is the customer's not going to move their data to the public cloud en mass; there's going to be certainly some important elements that are going to there, it's no question about that, but then increasingly they're going to try to bring cloud, the cloud operating model, the cloud experience, down to where the data resides; and that's going to be at the edge, and that's going to be at what others call the core, on-premises. And near premises, so, you know side-by-side with public cloud players in in a number of different hosting companies. So the very concept is the requirements or the attributes of the data are going to dictate where the workloads operate, and increasingly those, that's going to demand an on-premises capability that still satisfies the basic notions of cloud. >> Great, that's a great backdrop. Now let's talk about VMware, and let's, I have something that I want to talk about the direct cloud report, we'll get into that. VMware had two or three years ago, Pat Gelsinger was under the gun, you know with the pressure of the Dell merger looming, what the future is going to be in there. Since then the performance of VMware has been spectacular financially, he's really proud of that. Some new products pivoting, I want to get what you're hearing first, but what I'm hearing is and I want to give you something, give you a chance to respond, I want to get your reaction. VMware has seen some acceleration over the years around vSphere, around kind of good, stable, that haven't lost anything with vSphere, so, one of their core products, virtualization storage; but their large accounts are stable in the Fortune 500, losing some business maybe in the lower accounts, but as the AWS, Azures, and Google Cloud, cloud native players are growing, the emerging products are front and center for VMware. vSAN, NSX, obviously the driver which we'll want to double click on, and the vCHS, the VMware vCloud Hybrid Service. These are, specifically the vSAN getting momentum, and these emerging products, how important is that for VMware? Obviously their stability is IT footprint. But why is the cloud driving some of these new emerging behaviors? >> Look, every company wish they had the install base that VMware has, and that install base is predicated on VDI, or Video Desktop Integration, Virtual Desktop Integration. It's vSAN, which is the use of VMware as a basis for virtualizing storage, and obviously all the stuff that's associated with virtualizing hardware. You know, John, it's interesting, if you think about what made the cloud possible, certainly AWS took on the heavy duty the heavy lifting associated with actually creating a business, and it's obviously you know very successful, but it all started with the idea of virtualization, and the notion that you could in fact bring virtualization in on top of hardware sources and generate a lot of not only cost avoidance, but also increasing flexibilities; you can get better utilization but also increase your flexibility, and that's one of the things that made the cloud possible. And so if we think about the VMware install base, that's where it all starts. It's the ability to get greater utilization and greater flexibility on-premise, and now it's moving into the cloud. So we got three basic questions for for VMware that we're looking at. One, there's been a lot of chatter about the relationship between Dell EMC and VMware, and what does that mean? You know Dell EMC is carrying a pretty significant debt load these days, and, there is visibility in where it's going to go, but VMware, as a brand is worth an enormous amount of money. So how does Dell EMC better you know increasingly attach itself to VMware is an interesting question, and what does that mean for the ecosystem? >> Having perverse incentives possibly versus-- >> Possibly, possibly, but we want to get that, there has to be a constant promise from VMware that they're going to take care of the ecosystem first with Dell EMC as a big participant in that. So that's the first thing, especially these days with all the financial chatter. Second thing is, this AWS agreement is really really important, and a lot of people are questioning is it a one way street? Do you just, you know, sure we have virtualization in cloud, we got virtualization here, does it make it easy to bring stuff up to VMware? What happens once it, or up to AWS, what happens once workloads get up there? Is AWS going to try to you know facilitate a migration? That's still a very very challenging technical problem, but we'll see a lot more, Andy Jassy has the keynote as you said, about how that partnership is working and where it's actually going. Because there will be a requirement also to be able to take workloads out of AWS, and out of public clouds, and bring 'em down on-premise. >> Hence the two-way street that you're looking for. >> Got to be a two-way street. A simple example, we're going to see increasing, in the AI world, we're going to see more modeling occurring in cloud, more training occurring in cloud, and more inferencing learning out on the edge and the core. Well, we want to see, you know VMware certainly wants to see more of those workloads being virtualized. And that leads to the third question what's the VMware story with IOT, with the edge? That is very very unclear at this point in time, and there's a lot of work that's going to have to be required to put into. And so I think that those are the three things that we're really focusing on, and how does VMware answer those questions can have a lot to do with future architectures, future business models, and future partnerships. >> And it's important, I think the edge one is clearly obvious that the don't have much announced, but that have to put a stake in the ground at some point. >> Absolutely. And you know, the reality is, the edge has real-time, often is associated with real-time, high performance, every throughput, very lightweight execution. >> Uses the cloud, uses the data center. >> Uses the cloud, uses the cloud, uses you know servos computing is an example, containers, those things all don't require a virtualized machine. >> I want to get your reactions on something, I sent an email out to a bunch of buyers, of friends in the network of theCUBE alumni and our networks and I asked them a question, I said: what do you think about VMware's prospects going forward as a buyer of technology, as you're transforming your organization from the obvious on-premise operating model to hybrid? Which they're all doing pretty much, and are agreeing to it. So the aspirational aspect was confirmed, to your point. So they responded, (laughs) and they said look it, VMware remains largely flat across server, infrastructure, storage, and virtualization buying. >> In terms of growth? >> No, what they're buying and growth, growth, no they're not really paying much attention to that, they're saying it's pretty flat, we're not going anywhere it's not going down, it's not going up per se, in the core segments. They said the main thing is going to be the emerging technology so vSAN, NSX, and vCHS. Then I asked 'em I said: What do you like about VMware, what do you think they're strong in? They said: well, we like the fact that they got, that they have technology, okay, and if they can keep the technology lead we're interested, so that's a question also, I'll get that in a second, the relationships that they've had with VMware, the supplier relationships, rinse reset a feature of products, and then compatibility with their existing IT footprint. I then asked 'em what're you worried about? (laughs) And they said: well, if there's a discussion about replacing VMware, it's around price cost and technology lag. Your reaction to those two points? >> First point is, again, there's no question that VMware has a great install base of customers that are thinking about what it's going to mean, and I think the most important observation is that, and we'll learn more about how many enterprises really are starting to move their virtual machines up to AWS, for example, more than VMware next week. But I also think that it provides cover for you know a CIO or VP of infrastructure to say yeah I'm going to continue to invest here, and I'm going to, you know, have the option of moving to something else. And there will be a lot more options for what you do with a VMware virtual machine in the future. Regarding the question of whether it's flat or not, I think one of the reasons why that perception is there, is because the hardware business overall has been flat, and VMware is a derivative of play in the hardware business, so, at least until recently. In many respects now it's dragging some of it forward because VMware allows you to put off additional hardware purchases. So we'll see where that cycle ends up, we might be at the nadir of that cycle, but I certainly think that we're seeing-- >> It's mature for sure, I mean. >> It's mature. But it used to be that you'd buy new hardware and then you'd put VMware on top of it to virtualize it, so you could get more productivity out of it. But as hardware's slowed down, why would you buy more VMware? But I think what's happening now is people are thinking first in terms of buying VMware, and what workloads you need to put on there, how they want to set those workloads up, and then looking for hardware to do that, and increasingly looking through the cloud. The third thing I'd say is that look, the VMware cloud foundation, and NSX, are two incredibly important technologies. For example-- >> Well hold on before you go there, 'cause I want to drill down on this because, one of the things that I mentioned in there which is a key word is existing IT footprint; this is a reality, some call it legacy. Having an IT footprint with VMware is not going to get you in trouble because of the path of the cloud, 'cause you've got cloud native, things like Kubernetes down the road, but that footprint's the base foundation. So as NSX comes in, (laughs) and the cloud foundation, interesting new lever. How does those enabling components fit for the enterprise who's sittin' there sayin' I got an existing IT footprint, I got all these clouds on the horizon, why NSX, why is the vCloud foundation important? >> Yeah, so let's start with VCF, VCF provides, or is a, takes you maybe 75, 80% of the way there to that cloud experience on-premises; a VMware based cloud experience on-premises. So, it's a really nice bundling of technology, that provides a relatively simple way of deploying, configuring, maintaining, and ultimately retiring workloads. So, it's a nice package for a lot of enterprises that have that VMware experience. That's a different story from NSX, so, on the cloud foundation standpoint, if you need to demonstrate to your board and to your CXO, and to your line of business people, that you are not just have an option to go to the cloud, but you're actually bringing that experience more to the business, a lot of customers are kickin' the tires on VCF, and it's a good thing to do. NSX is a little bit different. NSX, if we think about the long term, there has always been a need to flatten networks in the enterprise. Having that network, and that network, and that network, and trying to inter-network them together through bridging and gateways, is extremely problematic, even at the network level. It requires-- >> In terms of sprawl and complexity, or both? >> In terms of complexity, in terms of the amount of processing, I mean the cost of doing address translation and takin' packets and re-formatting them for different workloads in the network; very, very difficult to do. Now, you add programmability atop of that, 'cause at the end of the day, cloud is effectively a network program model. Very, you know, hey, you got a big problem on your hands. Somebody at some point in time is going to make, is going to build a $50 billion company around the idea of inter-networking clouds. I don't know who it is. >> Cisco wants to do it. >> Cisco would like to do it, but Cisco, quite frankly, probablyyyy, you know they could have started this process five or six years ago, and they didn't get out there. VMware took some steps to do that. NSX is a pretty good candidate right now, if we're thinking about how we build inter-networked multi cloud environments. >> So, you used the example before you came on camera, that you have this segment that in the old world of network stacks SNA, DECnet, variety whether stacks had proprietary things and bridges happened, to your point, to your explanation. And then TCP/IP came up and flattened it, TCP/IP. >> Yeah, just flattened it all out, made 'em all go away. >> So clouds aren't networks, but they're cloud environments, same concept, but flattening 'em out. >> Well, they are networks, at the end of the day they really are networks. >> They're a network of machines. >> Yeah, they're a network of services, they're a network of machines. >> So, explain the flattening piece, is it, are we still in the early stages of that, are you seeing visibility? >> Very much so. >> What are some data points around this? >> So the, and you said earlier, that the multi cloud, hybrid cloud are really the same, well today they are. We might envision a day when they're not, here's why. Hybrid cloud is I got this cloud, I got that cloud, it's more of a where is the data located, how am I going to run those environments together. Multi cloud is I got multiple clouds that I have to inter-network, and I have to bring together. I want to run a job in one of the Oracle application clouds, that also touches some of the machine learning that you get out of Google Cloud, and increase and include some of the retail capabilities you get out of AWS. That is a very very realistic scenario, it's going to happen, people are doing that kind of stuff right now. >> And that's the preferred outcome people are looking for? >> That's the preferred outcome that people are lookin' for. Well, each of those different environments are going to have an economic incentive to say yeah, that's great do that, but bring more of the workload into my cloud, 'cause I'm going to create interfaces that are a little bit better at working together than you know you can get from the inter-networking side. Well, they'll still have to stay open, but you know some of those environments are going to be better at that than others; but at the end of the day you want no penalty whatsoever, other than latency and where the data's located from amongst these different services. And so eventually what we're going to want to do is we're going to see the inter-networking itself flatten, where're the jobs, how the jobs are set up: flattened. Make it easier to move data, and jobs or workloads out of one cloud and be able to put it in another, because of any number of different reasons. And so, that's-- >> Yeah, competitive advantage, different economics, different product features >> Regulatory regimes change, you know what happens if if in Germany they decide to do something else from other than GDPR, what's it going to mean? >> So is NSX going to be that connector, you kind of think? >> NSX-- >> Has the opportunity. >> Has the potential to be that kind of connector. So an enterprise that's looking at how they can increase their set of options, their flexibility, their ability to bring networking closer to workload. NSX is as good of, that I know about, that we know about, as good an option out there as any. >> I want to ask you before we move onto the true private cloud versus private cloud and that whole report you did to private cloud in the third year. We're seeing a trend around the operating side, the personas are developing Google Cloud Next conference, the notion of an SRE, you know sight reliability engineer. Public cloud has always been known as developer friendly, very developer oriented, cloud native, all the developers love containers, Kubernetes, Istio, and a lot of cool services are coming out. But now with VMware, they kind of own the IT footprint from an operating model, operating the networks. The bridging of those two worlds are kind of coming together, right now we don't see a lot of cross over yet between pure cloud native developers in VMware ecosystem. Your thought on that connection to those personas, how it relates to how the ecosystem's rolling out, your thoughts? >> Yeah, you know John, I think that's going to be the big challenge for the next couple of years, literally, in the next couple of years. That ultimately, developers love the public cloud because they can avoid operations of people. Increasingly the public cloud players are going to have to provide platforms. And you know everybody talks about I, you know infrastructure as a service versus pass as a service, or platform as a service. But when, in Amazon, Google, Azure, Oracle, IBM Software, all of these guys are going to have to add capabilities that are that much more intriguing and interesting to developers. Bringing the enterprise developer into this ecosystem is the next big round of competition, 'cause those people aren't going to go away, they're too important to the future of business. And, to the degree that VMware can provide, and I think this is the best that they can do, a neutral platform for those guys as opposed to starting to introduce you know machine learning services on VMware or or, you know, anything beyond some of the platform stuff that Dell EMC has Pivotal, and what not, on VMware. Yeah, we can expect to see greater integration for that, but I think ultimately what VMware needs to be is a phenomenal target for stuff that's written over here, that needs to run over there, and have it run on VMware, I think that's ultimately what's going to happen. >> Alright Peter, great stuff, now let's talk about the true private cloud report, 'cause I think VMworld is always a beacon, always a bellwether for what's going on in IT, with respect to on-premises private cloud, or true private cloud, or hybrid cloud, IBM as well, and some others, they're always a leader in engineering. Before we get into the report, first describe the difference between what true private cloud is and what people have called private cloud. Because the term private cloud's been kicked around, going back I think 2012 I first heard-- >> Oh, private cloud, I first heard the term private cloud in probably 2005, 2006. >> But you guys have nailed this definition called true private cloud. What does it mean, what's the difference? >> So, the idea is, the cloud experience wherever the data requires it, and increasingly data is going to require it at the edge, in the core, in the data center, you know, local to the business; because of latency issues, because of cost of bandwidth issues, because of regulatory issues, because of IP control issues, any number of other issues, there's going to be an increasing distribution of data; workloads are going to follow that distribution of data, and the systems have to be there to run it. But we want to have a common vision of how those workloads are operated, and a common model for how we pay to run those workloads. So when you think about true private cloud, it's basically, we want the cloud experience, which includes, you know simplicity, the one throat to choke, the regular and non-invasive upgrades and enhancements to software; we want to add to it, kind of the management interfaces that we're associating with the cloud, but also the pay as you go, and the flexibility to scale up and the greater plasticity to be able to add services. We want all of that, but in a footprint on premise. >> And that's for true private cloud? >> And that's what we mean by true private cloud. Now if you go back a few years, companies would you know, you'd get a hardware company that'd say oh look, cloud is Linux plus some manned control interfaces, no problem, we can put that directly into our operating system or have a management interface on our platform, now we can go on cloud. >> And put it in your data center. >> And put it in your data center. But you still paid for everything up front, you have to deal with software patches and upgrades, because it's software that's installed. >> So it's an operating model, how you're consuming technology, how you're buying it. >> Operating model, how you consume the technology, and the flexibility, and the future of the modern application approach, which is services oriented, and networks and data. >> And so one of the findings obviously, you're pretty strong on this sayin' this is no long aspirational, it's realistic. What does the report show, what're the numbers, how did you break down the report? >> Sure. >> What are the categories, and what are some of the data? >> So the aspirational notion was that we kept talking about true private cloud, but, the hardware vendors were slow to actually deliver on it, especially on that service oriented approach as opposed to a product oriented approach. By that I mean product approach is, you buy it all upfront, and it's caviat after I'm a consumer, service oriented approach is you know we have enough belief in what we're selling that you're only paying for the services you consume, which is what AWS and Azure and others do. So we're seeing that actually happen. That's number one. You take a loot at what HPE's with a technology called GreenLake. IBM is advancing it's cause with software. Dell EMC is doing some interesting things with both VMware but also some related types of technologies. All of that is happening right now, so the server companies, or traditional server companies, are introducing true and honest to goodness capabilities that mimic the cloud, so that's happening. The second thing that's happening is you know the AWSs the Google Clouds, and the big hyper scalers, are also starting to introduce technology that allows at least elements of their platform to run on-premise. The big holdover was AWS, but now, through snowballs, through their their kind of ranked box, data box, you can now put a fair amount of processing on there, and a fair amount of AWS stuff, and you can actually run workloads down on this box. So it extends the AWS platform out to locations in a very novel way. So we're seeing on the one hand the server companies truly will introduce technology and services that actually do a better job of mimicking the cloud. We're seeing the cloud players come up with technologies that allow them to extend their footprint, their cloud presence, down to where data needs to reside, and that's where everybody's goin' right now, everybody's goin for that spot in the marketplace. >> So, you have categories here, on-premise-- >> We have on-premise, which is kind of the traditional true private cloud, and the leaders from a hardware packaging standpoint are Dell EMC, HPE are two of the big leaders. Then we have-- >> Cisco's right behind them. >> Cisco's right behind 'em. We've got what we call the near-premise, or the host of true private cloud, and this is where you have AWS right next to your private cloud box so that they can communicate really fast, or it's hosted. IBM is very big here, but there is a number of other players-- >> IBM's got a sizable lead, it's 12% by your numbers, and Rackspace coming second and four-- >> Rackspace is good. And then you've got some very interesting and very important smaller players, like Expedient for example. And then-- >> So there's two main categories, there's hosted, >> Correct. >> And then on-premise. >> On-premise. >> And then there's another category >> So near premise, and on-premise. >> Near premise and on-premise or hosted. >> And there's the ecosystem side, there's a software that's actually utilized to do this, this is where VMware excels in. >> Explain what the ecosystem, so you called true private cloud ecosystem pull through shares, what is that? >> So, we have, so, VMware as we've been talking about, is one of those technologies that allows one to devise a true private cloud platform. Increasingly that's what they're doing, with some of the technologies that we're talking about. And so ultimately they are putting the software out to customers and customers are defaulting to that software, as their approach to building that true private cloud, and then pulling hardware through as a second decision. So the first decision is I'm going to build my cloud, my private cloud, my true private cloud with VMware, and I'll find hardware that doesn't get in the way. >> So it's leaders who are pulling hardware sales. >> It's the software leaders that are putting the software for building true private clouds out there, and then through partnerships dragging hardware in. >> And so there, they're there and everyone wants to talk to them. So that's VMware (laughs) 24% >> That's VMware, Nutanix is moving along. >> HPE, Microsoft, IBM. >> HPE's in there. >> Interesting, that's awesome. And any other findings that you've found, in terms of growth? Number sizes I think this year you had 21 billion roughly 2017. >> Yeah, it's just over 20, it's 20.3 billion, it's going to go to, you know over 260 billion in 10 years, it's going to be bigger than the infrastructure as a service marketplace, it is the true private cloud segment, the on-premise segment for the first time exceeded the size of the near premise segment as the software matures, as you figure out how to make these business models go. But this is going to be, you know Diane Greene said something very very interesting at Google Next. And she said look, nobody really understands how this business is going to work in 10 years, and she's right. Some companies clearly have a better understanding than others. >> So do you think your numbers are short or over? >> I think-- >> But that implies you know. (laughs) >> Well no, I don't know if it's short or over, but let me give you an example. That our numbers presume a relatively constant approach in thinking about how we price and how we generate exchange for this stuff. But how fast the cloud operating model, that pay as you go moves into the true private space, is going to have an enormous implication on what those revenues look like. The degree to which companies demand a three year commitment like Salesforce is starting to do with SaaS. It's going to have an enormous implication on how those revenues actually get realized. >> Well, we've debated this, you and I have debated this before with Dave as well, Dave this it's a trillion, Dave Vellante, so, you know I think you're sure, I think you took a conservative approach, and you know just my personal observation. >> Well we think the overall cloud market's going to be, if we add SaaS in there, it's going to be 260 to 300, probably a total of 700 billion, something like that, and so it's pretty sizable. So we're just talking about that on-premise true private cloud. >> Yeah, the true private cloud you know, $250 billion by 2027. Okay, so I got to ask you a question, since, I like that Diane Greene quote by the way, just kidding you about the forecast numbers, but, I think she's right. So I got to ask you, what is your observation around what this report says vis-a-vis the buyer market out there who are squinting through the fud, and, all these rankings around who's got the most market share. We hear, you know there was a post on Forbes from my friend Bob Evans that said: oh, Microsoft's number one in cloud! So, how you define cloud is a function of how you define cloud. Someone defines it by bundling an office and apps and, eventually, the level of granularity is going to have to be at least segmented a bit. How do you view how customers should keep a score card for market share, leadership, and besides customers, and number of services, I mean is there an approach that anything coming out of this data you would see and saying maybe the market might want to be sized this way, maybe we should be thinking about not so much market share numbers on some graph on some analyst firm. Is there any thoughts on that? Because it's a big thing, and true private cloud's just one sector. >> Yeah, yeah. >> You've got SaaS, and you've got PaaS, and you've got-- >> So I think John, there've been at least, you know we could probably say there're more, but just making it up off the top of my head, there have been at least three eras that users focused on. Era number one is the hardware as the asset, how do we get the most out of our hardware. That dominated probably until the late '80s or so. And then it became the application as the asset, and then we bought into the application, and we bought hardware and all the other stuff underneath that application, and that was pretty much the 2000's, up until maybe 2010. And now we're thinking of data as the asset, and what does that mean? What it means is that ultimately, I think that the way that, we think that the way that architecture is going to be thought of, is not on application architecture, but around data architecture; I don't mean data architecture like a DBA, I mean what is your brand promise, what, what activities do you have to deliver that brand promise, what data and services do you need to perform those activities. Get that data in as close as you possibly can to those activities, wherever they have to be performed, so that you can perform them predictably, reliably, at the lowest cost, and in the greatest, shortest period of time. So I would start with the idea, you know what I'm going to focus on where my data's going to be located to run my business, that's where I would focus. The second thing, as I think when we think about market shares, and we think about a lot of these other questions, it's okay which, this is a transformative period of time, which of these companies is going to be most likely to deliver a product now, but also create better options for how I do stuff in the future; and we like to talk to our clients about the idea of buy the stuff that provides the best portfolio of options on future data value. And so, data today, and helping think about architecture, work with companies that are demonstrating that they're going to be able to create the options that you need in the future, 'cause this is going to change a lot over the next five, six, eight years. And so, you want to work with companies that are demonstrating that they're able to create new technology, through IP, through things like opensource, >> Okay so the question is-- >> Are sharing it appropriately too. >> So, who's number one? Again, I don't think this is going to be one score, I think it's going to be level of services, how many services you're using. There was one angle I wanted to do, but I can't, I'm still having a hard time. But I guess I'll ask ya, to put ya on the spot. If I'm a customer, Peter, who's the number one in cloud, gimme the top three players. >> AWS, Azure, Google. >> Okay, (claps once) there ya go. (laughs) The top three clouds. Well we're going to keep an eye on it-- >> Let's go to four though, so AWS, Azure, Google, and then again, from that true private cloud-- >> IBM. >> Because that's a, no, no, it's got to be Vmware; because that's, that's where the pull through is right now, right. But when you think about it, the big question is is AWS and Google Cloud going to come down to the edge, and down to the true private cloud as fast as some of these other cloud players are going to go up to the bigger cloud? If I were to pick the one that's most likely to win, it's located somewhere near ribbon. So Microsoft or... In Seattle area AWS. Again, again, it's so early, I think if people, going to have to figure out what to do, that's going to determine the winners and losers. Certainly a true private cloud report, great report. Check out the true private cloud report from Wikibon.com, go to wikibon.com and check it out, preview for VMworld. I'm John Furrier with Peter Burris, a lot of exciting news, two large sets, 72 interviews, three days, come visit theCUBE team, we got to full team down there, we're going to have a lot of our team down there lookin' to talk to you. Join our community, join our network, we're going to have a lot of fun, and also learn a lot at VMworld, talk to some really smart people. Thanks for watching. (intense orchestral music)

>> Announcer: Big Data Silicon Valley 2017. >> Hey, welcome back, everybody, Jeff Frick here with The Cube. We are live at the historic Pagoda Lounge in San Jose for Big Data SV, which is associated with Strathead Dupe World, across the street, as well as Big Data week, so everything big data is happening in San Jose, we're happy to be here, love the new venue, if you're around, stop by, back of the Fairmount, Pagoda Lounge. We're excited to be joined in this next segment by, who's now become a regular, any time we're at a Big Data event, a Spark event, Holden always stops by. Holden Karau, she's the principal software engineer at IBM. Holden, great to see you. >> Thank you, it's wonderful to be back yet again. >> Absolutely, so the big data meme just keeps rolling, Google Cloud Next was last week, a lot of talk about AI and ML and of course you're very involved in Spark, so what are you excited about these days? What are you, I'm sure you've got a couple presentations going on across the street. >> Yeah, so my two presentations this week, oh wow, I should remember them. So the one that I'm doing today is with my co-worker Seth Hendrickson, also at IBM, and we're going to be focused on how to use structured streaming for machine learning. And sort of, I think that's really interesting, because streaming machine learning is something a lot of people seem to want to do but aren't yet doing in production, so it's always fun to talk to people before they've built their systems. And then tomorrow I'm going to be talking with Joey on how to debug Spark, which is something that I, you know, a lot of people ask questions about, but I tend to not talk about, because it tends to scare people away, and so I try to keep the happy going. >> Jeff: Bugs are never fun. >> No, no, never fun. >> Just picking up on that structured streaming and machine learning, so there's this issue of, as we move more and more towards the industrial internet of things, like having to process events as they come in, make a decision. How, there's a range of latency that's required. Where does structured streaming and ML fit today, and where might that go? >> So structured streaming for today, latency wise, is probably not something I would use for something like that right now. It's in the like sub second range. Which is nice, but it's not what you want for like live serving of decisions for your car, right? That's just not going to be feasible. But I think it certainly has the potential to get a lot faster. We've seen a lot of renewed interest in ML liblocal, which is really about making it so that we can take the models that we've trained in Spark and really push them out to the edge and sort of serve them in the edge, and apply our models on end devices. So I'm really excited about where that's going. To be fair, part of my excitement is someone else is doing that work, so I'm very excited that they're doing this work for me. >> Let me clarify on that, just to make sure I understand. So there's a lot of overhead in Spark, because it runs on a cluster, because you have an optimizer, because you have the high availability or the resilience, and so you're saying we can preserve the predict and maybe serve part and carve out all the other overhead for running in a very small environment. >> Right, yeah. So I think for a lot of these IOT devices and stuff like that it actually makes a lot more sense to do the predictions on the device itself, right. These models generally are megabytes in size, and we don't need a cluster to do predictions on these models, right. We really need the cluster to train them, but I think for a lot of cases, pushing the prediction out to the edge node is actually a pretty reasonable use case. And so I'm really excited that we've got some work going on there. >> Taking that one step further, we've talked to a bunch of people, both like at GE, and at their Minds and Machines show, and IBM's Genius of Things, where you want to be able to train the models up in the cloud where you're getting data from all the different devices and then push the retrained model out to the edge. Can that happen in Spark, or do we have to have something else orchestrating all that? >> So actually pushing the model out isn't something that I would do in Spark itself, I think that's better served by other tools. Spark is not really well suited to large amounts of internet traffic, right. But it's really well suited to the training, and I think with ML liblocal it'll essentially, we'll be able to provide both sides of it, and the copy part will be left up to whoever it is that's doing their work, right, because like if you're copying over a cell network you need to do something very different as if you're broadcasting over a terrestrial XM or something like that, you need to do something very different for satellite. >> If you're at the edge on a device, would you be actually running, like you were saying earlier, structured streaming, with the prediction? >> Right, I don't think you would use structured streaming per se on the edge device, but essentially there would be a lot of code share between structured streaming and the code that you'd be using on the edge device. And it's being vectored out now so that we can have this code sharing and Spark machine learning. And you would use structured streaming maybe on the training side, and then on the serving side you would use your custom local code. >> Okay, so tell us a little more about Spark ML today and how we can democratize machine learning, you know, for a bigger audience. >> Right, I think machine learning is great, but right now you really need a strong statistical background to really be able to apply it effectively. And we probably can't get rid of that for all problems, but I think for a lot of problems, doing things like hyperparameter tuning can actually give really powerful tools to just like regular engineering folks who, they're smart, but maybe they don't have a strong machine learning background. And Spark's ML pipelines make it really easy to sort of construct multiple stages, and then just be like, okay, I don't know what these parameters should be, I want you to do a search over what these different parameters could be for me, and it makes it really easy to do this as just a regular engineer with less of an ML background. >> Would that be like, just for those of us who are, who don't know what hyperparameter tuning is, that would be the knobs, the variables? >> Yeah, it's going to spin the knobs on like our regularization parameter on like our regression, and it can also spin some knobs on maybe the engram sizes that we're using on the inputs to something else, right. And it can compare how these knobs sort of interact with each other, because often you can tune one knob but you actually have six different knobs that you want to tune and you don't know, if you just explore each one individually, you're not going to find the best setting for them working together. >> So this would make it easier for, as you're saying, someone who's not a data scientist to set up a pipeline that lets you predict. >> I think so, very much. I think it does a lot of the, brings a lot of the benefits from sort of the SciPy world to the big data world. And SciPy is really wonderful about making machine learning really accessible, but it's just not ready for big data, and I think this does a good job of bringing these same concepts, if not the code, but the same concepts, to big data. >> The SciPy, if I understand, is it a notebook that would run essentially on one machine? >> SciPy can be put in a notebook environment, and generally it would run on, yeah, a single machine. >> And so to make that sit on Spark means that you could then run it on a cluster-- >> So this isn't actually taking SciPy and distributing it, this is just like stealing the good concepts from SciPy and making them available for big data people. Because SciPy's done a really good job of making a very intuitive machine learning interface. >> So just to put a fine sort of qualifier on one thing, if you're doing the internet of things and you have Spark at the edge and you're running the model there, it's the programming model, so structured streaming is one way of programming Spark, but if you don't have structured streaming at the edge, would you just be using the core batch Spark programming model? >> So at the edge you'd just be using, you wouldn't even be using batch, right, because you're trying to predict individual events, right, so you'd just be calling predict with every new event that you're getting in. And you might have a q mechanism of some type. But essentially if we had this batch, we would be adding additional latency, and I think at the edge we really, the reason we're moving the models to the edge is to avoid the latency. >> So just to be clear then, is the programming model, so it wouldn't be structured streaming, and we're taking out all the overhead that forced us to use batch with Spark. So the reason I'm trying to clarify is a lot of people had this question for a long time, which is are we going to have a different programming model at the edge from what we have at the center? >> Yeah, that's a great question. And I don't think the answer is finished yet, but I think the work is being done to try and make it look the same. Of course, you know, trying to make it look the same, this is Boosh, it's not like actually barking at us right now, even though she looks like a dog, she is, there will always be things which are a little bit different from the edge to your cluster, but I think Spark has done a really good job of making things look very similar on single node cases to multi node cases, and I think we can probably bring the same things to ML. >> Okay, so it's almost time, we're coming back, Spark took us from single machine to cluster, and now we have to essentially bring it back for an edge device that's really light weight. >> Yeah, I think at the end of the day, just from a latency point of view, that's what we have to do for serving. For some models, not for everyone. Like if you're building a website with a recommendation system, you don't need to serve that model like on the edge node, that's fine, but like if you've got a car device we can't depend on cell latency, right, you have to serve that in car. >> So what are some of the things, some of the other things that IBM is contributing to the ecosystem that you see having a big impact over the next couple years? >> So there's a lot of really exciting things coming out of IBM. And I'm obviously pretty biased. I spend a lot of time focused on Python support in Spark, and one of the most exciting things is coming from my co-worker Brian, I'm not going to say his last name in case I get it wrong, but Brian is amazing, and he's been working on integrating Arrow with Spark, and this can make it so that it's going to be a lot easier to sort of interoperate between JVM languages and Python and R, so I'm really optimistic about the sort of Python and R interfaces improving a lot in Spark and getting a lot faster as well. And we're also, in addition to the Arrow work, we've got some work around making it a lot easier for people in R and Python to get started. The R stuff is mostly actually the Microsoft people, thanks Felix, you're awesome. I don't actually know which camera I should have done that to but that's okay. >> I think you got it! >> But Felix is amazing, and the other people working on R are too. But I think we've both been pursuing sort of making it so that people who are in the R or Python spaces can just use like Pit Install, Conda Install, or whatever tool it is they're used to working with, to just bring Spark into their machine really easily, just like they would sort of any other software package that they're using. Because right now, for someone getting started in Spark, if you're in the Java space it's pretty easy, but if you're in R or Python you have to do sort of a lot of weird setup work, and it's worth it, but like if we can get rid of that friction, I think we can get a lot more people in these communities using Spark. >> Let me see, just as a scenario, the R server is getting fairly well integrated into Sequel server, so would it be, would you be able to use R as the language with a Spark execution engine to somehow integrate it into Sequel server as an execution engine for doing the machine learning and predicting? >> You definitely, well I shouldn't say definitely, you probably could do that. I don't necessarily know if that's a good idea, but that's the kind of stuff that this would enable, right, it'll make it so that people that are making tools in R or Python can just use Spark as another library, right, and it doesn't have to be this really special setup. It can just be this library and they point out the cluster and they can do whatever work it wants to do. That being said, the Sequel server R integration, if you find yourself using that to do like distributed computing, you should probably take a step back and like rethink what you're doing. >> George: Because it's not really scale out. >> It's not really set up for that. And you might be better off doing this with like, connecting your Spark cluster to your Sequel server instance using like JDBC or a special driver and doing it that way, but you definitely could do it in another inverted sort of way. >> So last question from me, if you look out a couple years, how will we make machine learning accessible to a bigger and bigger audience? And I know you touched on the tuning of the knobs, hyperparameter tuning, what will it look like ultimately? >> I think ML pipelines are probably what things are going to end up looking like. But I think the other part that we'll sort of see is we'll see a lot more examples of how to work with certain kinds of data, because right now, like, I know what I need to do when I'm ingesting some textural data, but I know that because I spent like a week trying to figure out what the hell I was doing once, right. And I didn't bother to write it down. And it looks like no one else bothered to write it down. So really I think we'll see a lot of tools that look very similar to the tools we have today, they'll have more options and they'll be a bit easier to use, but I think the main thing that we're really lacking right now is good documentation and sort of good books and just good resources for people to figure out how to use these tools. Now of course, I mean, I'm biased, because I work on these tools, so I'm like, yeah, they're pretty great. So there might be other people who are like, Holden, no, you're wrong, we need to rethink everything. But I think this is, we can go very far with the pipeline concept. >> And then that's good, right? The democratization of these things opens it up to more people, you get more creative people solving more different problems, that makes the whole thing go. >> You can like install Spark easily, you can, you know, set up an ML pipeline, you can train your model, you can start doing predictions, you can, people that haven't been able to do machine learning at scale can get started super easily, and build a recommendation system for their small little online shop and be like, hey, you bought this, you might also want to buy Boosh, he's really cute, but you can't have this one. No no no, not this one. >> Such a tease! >> Holden: I'm sorry, I'm sorry. >> Well Holden, that will, we'll say goodbye for now, I'm sure we will see you in June in San Francisco at the Spark Summit, and look forward to the update. >> Holden: I look forward to chatting with you then. >> Absolutely, and break a leg this afternoon at your presentation. >> Holden: Thank you. >> She's Holden Karau, I'm Jeff Frick, he's George Gilbert, you're watching The Cube, we're at Big Data SV, thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Tech people love tech. Consumers love to benefit of tech. No consumer opens up their iphone and says, "Oh my gosh, I love the technology behind my iphone". >> What's it been like being on the Shark Tank? >> You know filming is fun. And hanging out is fun, and it's fun to be a celebratory at first. Your head gets really big and you can get tables at restaurants. >> Who says tech isn't got a little pizazz? (laughing) >> Announcer: More skin in the game. In charge of his destiny. >> I mean you guys are exciting? >> Announcer: Robert Herjavec, is Cube Alumni. (upbeat music) Live from Silicon Valley, it's the Cube, covering Google Cloud Next' 17. >> Welcome back to the Cube, we're doing two days of live coverage here of the Google Cloud Next' 2017 here in the center of Silicon Valley from our 4500 sq foot Palo Alto studio. Happy to bring back to the program a multi time guest, but first time in his new role Praveen Akkiraju now the CEO of Viptela. Thank you for joining us. >> Thanks Stu real pleasure to be here. >> Praveen we were joking, it's like you first came on the Cube back in 2012, you've been on the program at many of our shows, but now you're at our place here, we've got the nice studio, so happy. >> Yes it's really impressive. It's a, you guys have come a long way and it's been an awesome show when I was at VC and I'm really excited to be back here with you. >> Awesome, thank you so much. Why don't you give our audience why Vipetla? What was exiting o you about the opportunity? We've has the opportunity of interviewing some of your folks over the last couple of years at shows like the Emerald and alike? >> Absolutely, I think it's interesting, when you think about sort of what's happening in the IT industry as a whole. There's a revolution going on in the cloud. You know the show that you guys are covering as well as what's been happening over the past couple of years. Applications are basically migrating out of the data center, whether it's into the public cloud into into PaaS platforms, SaaS platforms and such like, similarly at the edge right, users have been migrating away from their desktops right, mobility has unleashed the user to be wherever they need to be and be able to still be productive. In addition to that, you have a whole bunch of things happening in the edge in terms of devices and things coming onboard. Now if you think about these two worlds and the revolution that's happening there, the actual connectivity between those two has been frozen in time right. Majority of the enterprises today are still connected using MPLE, VPN technology which is invented 20 years ago to solve the problem of ATM like emulation or IP. So I think what was really interesting to me about Viptela is it's truly about redefining the network connectivity between users and applications for the could era. And that's really what our mission is and that's what we're really excited about. >> Yeah Praveen it reminds me a lot of you know, what we saw in the data centers when it came to networking. There was that big shift for a number of years in saying, "Well it was the client to server "and then that machine to machine". Everything that happened with virtualization. We went from north south traffic to east west traffic. We talked about forever. Now as cloud pulls in those connectivity. Reinventing what's happening in WAN. >> And absolutely and think about it, if you're a user, you might be accessing your applications in the data center, But you might need to access a something on a SaaS platform well if you're sitting at a branch office do you want to go back to the data center and then head out to the Cloud? Or do you want to be able to take the best path out? Most branches today, have internet connections that our faster than anything MPLS can provide. In fact, there's a data point, one of our customers gave us. The per megabit cost for MPLS VPN is about $200. The per megabit cost for internet is about $2. And you think about the speed as symmetry and obviously the SLA's are different right. So you want to be able to make sure that you can leverage the best connectivity, but also make sure the applications are mapped to the appropriate SLA's transport. So, what we do is essentially, we think about ourselves as the next generation overlay. So we can, the Viptela fabric essentially encompasses MPLS, VPN, internet, LTE connectivity, and we're able to understand what happens in the underlay. But enterprises can just focus on how they want their users to connect to their applications without having to understand what's happening underneath. So that's truly the power of the software refined world if you will right. >> Yeah so, we've been talking for a few years. That whole SDN wave that came out, Google talks about themselves as the largest SDN company out there. But most of the discussion seems to have moved beyond SDN. You're area of SD WAN is definitely one of the hot conversations. Where are customers in kind of understanding this transition and where do things fit? >> Yeah it's a great point, I mean the first wave of software defined networking was essentially was about solving the data center connectivity problem. So how you connect machines more dynamically. How you connect do you connect capacity more dynamically. So application can migrate, you know this notion of sort of machine to machine communication in a dynamic fashion. And being able to potentially even stripe it out to the could. But the first wave did not address hard users connect to their applications. So we think of ourselves from an SDN perspective, kind of leading that second wave of software defined networking, which truly is about user experience an application experience. Connecting users wherever they are to applications wherever they are right. In a scalable secure and dynamic fashion. >> Very different discussion from what I think of. The guys from Nicira that turned into the NXS, that seemed very tied into how VMware talks about hybrid environment. When you talk about, when VMware on AWS goes in. I need that NXS in there. You know you worked at Cisco for a number of years, what they're doing with ACI now is talking more about that as opposed to the client the application layer. >> Exactly right. And I think that at the end of the day. We optimized how applications can migrate and move. And how they can get the best capacity. But the whole purpose is to really deliver those applications to the users. And the WAN has been kind of this, it's frozen in time for 20 years, primarily because it's hard right. It's really hard to be able to figure out what the underlay actually looks like. I mean some of these, some of our customers are global. I mean we have sights in Vietnam. In India, in the US obviously, But it's a global or it's a global footprint and being able to overlay something on top that still give you the predictable performance and be is secure, is something that's been a hard problem to solve. And that's what's really exiting about what we're doing at Viptela. >> It's really interesting stuff. Talk about how you guys partner with, interact with the public cloud environments? >> Yeah you know so we, we're obviously most of our controller are hosted in AWS as well as Verzion which is another, which is a key partner. These are the two big two big sort of partners for us in our in terms of our controllers. But we think about, we partner with AWS, we partner with Microsoft from a Open from an Office 365 perspective. And there a lot of our customer who want to have a much more predictable, high, low leniency access to Office 365. A lot of our customer have workloads in AWS. So we're able to actually spin up a version of our device to front end VPC's and AWS so you can then terminate. Essentially, we treat the cloud as a node in the fabric right. So it helps all the policies, it helps all the securities. Security aspects of it day one. So it's really super simple to set up. We don't treat the cloud separatetly, we just say,"well here's another branch "or a head end". Let's just, can I connect it in. And let the customer define the policies that they see fit. >> That's great so AWS and Office 365 leaders in their categories, got the Google Show going on this week. What do you hear from your customers when it comes to G Suite and Google Cloud? >> Yeah I mean there's a lot of customers who use the G Suite. Mainly Googe Docs particularity. In the context of sort of some of the small medium business that we work with. So again, our job is to really bring users to the applications with the lowest leniency of having the best experience possible. So lot of the could providers essentially don't necessarily worry about how customers get there. They just assume the customer shows up the the door but is a SasS platform or infrastructure is a service platform. So our partnerships with a lot of these providers are about insuring that you know we can collectively guarantee that their users get the best path forward. And that creates more stickiness for them. In terms of their service. >> Okay Praveen, let's talk about Viptela for a second, What's on your plate this year? Those industry watchers? What should we be expecting to see from you coming forward? >> Yeah what's interesting about Viptela is I mean we talk about obviously software define WAN as a category. And clearly as I mentioned, there's a huge leitant requirement to evolve the WAN connectiveness. And I would think that what Viptela does is sort of the next generation overlay. And we talked about sort of the different forms of connectivity which we give the control back to the enterprise. To say, "All you need to worry about Mr. Customer is "to say how can I define the segment or policy per user, "per application". So that's been sort of the focus of our initial use case for our fabric. And we've been tremendously successful, you know most of what we focus primarily on the global fortune 1000 type customers. So we have pretty much every verticals represented in our customer base. Large financials, industrial companies, car companies, retailers, health care and such like. But we think about this fabric as essentially solving the problem of connectivity so you now the next phase of our solution is really about how do we make cloud connectivity really simple and secure? So we're going to launch something in that space, where we make connectivity to infrastructure, service, SaaS platforms really seamless as part of our platform. So if you're a user in a branch or at the edge, you should be able to connect to your data center at the same level of experience and security as you would go to your cloud. So we want to make that super seamless. So that's I think, we call that Cloud En ramps. That's something that we're going to be announcing pretty soon. When I think about the longer term plan, evolution of this because of the platform is fundamentally grounded in routing, in understanding how scale happens, we have taken the traditional routing stake and disaggregated it. There's a data plane that's onsite, there's a control plane which is essentially your routing, and a management organization plane that sits in the cloud. So this allows us to solve many problems. So you can extrapolate forward and say well there's a whole problem internet of things. What is the internet of things problem? It is a whole bunch of devices at the edge which need to be connected to end points whether it's a data center or a you know a collection point. Dynamically, dependent on the phase of their. So those are the kind of problems we think we can solve. So Viptela is interesting because it's not just about SDN it's really about the next generation overlay between the users and the cloud and being able to address multiple use cases. >> Okay, and there are a number of companies. Plenty of startups, some of the big guys there. In the market, what really differentiates you guys? What are your customers coming to you for that the other guys can't do? >> Yeah I think it's, I would say really, so we're all routing geeks. I pretty much spent 19 years at Cisco. Built every platform that Cisco ships today. And so are most of member of the teams. We have I think one of the strongest collection of networking talent in the industry. And what we're able to do with that is as I mentioned re-imagine what the network connectivity needs to look like. In the era of cloud, in the era of internet of things. Our architecture is fundamentally modular as I mentioned right. There's a data plane, there's a control plane, management organization plane. We are cloud managed and cloud delivered. So we solve for scale very elegantly. Because we inherently use the properties of routing that has allowed the internet to scale to what it is as part of the core of our solution. That's one thing that's unique. The second aspect of this is, for us security is a day zero thing. You know, when we bring up a box, zero touch provisioning, it comes up with an Ipsec tunnel encrypted. And we do it without having to exchange keys. So it's inherently secure right. So that is a very significant issue because if you're using the internet as your pipe for your mission critical traffic how do you assure yourself that you're not going to be hacked? And your traffic is not going to be intercepted. So that's you know, some of the largest financial institutions have been on our architecture. Because they trust that. So that's a second piece. The third piece is from an application and a policy perspective we have the ability with our controllers to push policies and create segmentations for different use cases on a dynamic basis. So I'll give you an example so if you have a user in a branch, and you have basically another user comes in they have a different set of requirements. You can dynamically switch up a tunnel from your cloud controller to enable that to happen without every having to touch or configure any of the end boxes. So our cloud platform gives us tremendous amount of scale and flexibility. So that's the way I think about it. Scalability, security, an application policy and the different use cases that we're able to bring to bear. >> So final question I have of you Praveen, the networking world is changing faster than it used to. But I think back to... >> Praveen: Finally. >> for many years I would do slides on networking, and we'd talk about decade scale. So it's like you know, here's how the standard comes, here's how it roles out, here's how it adoption. The enterprise is risk adverse. Slow to change. Not doing anything. Why are things so exciting now in the networking space? What's different? What's driving that move and our customers moving faster? >> Yeah it's a great question and you know I think to put it differently I think networking enjoyed architectural consistency and stability for almost two decades. Which is not the case when you think about the data center or some of the other environment where there's constant change. Now having said that, when we think about what's driving this change it's really that these two revolutions that are going on, one in the edge where users are evolving really rapidly whether it's connectivity or sort of devices and such like and one of the data center of the cloud where applications are fundamentally changing their ephemeral. They're able to migrate between locations. So that's putting a lot of pressure back onto the network. To say, "Hey we need the network to be a lot more dynamic". We need the network to be a lot more flexible. A lot more cost effective. And that is the fundamental driver which we see as driving the customers' willingness to say, "I need to re-look at the network". And the other aspect of this is, as I said we re-imagined networking ground up. Clean sheet of paper. Learned the lessons from the past. And say, "How do you make this painless for the customer"? The reason why the network particularly the WAN has been stagnant is because it is painful right. It involved multiple connectivities, multiple carriers, multiple policies, it's not something that most enterprises want to deal with. By abstracting all that complexity away. We allow customers to focus on what they care about. Is how do I connect? Enable user connectivity with applications. And we take care of the underlay right. So I think those are the key things. I mean it's essentially the last leg of the stool if you will. In terms of moving truly to the cloud era. >> Alright well Praveen Akkiraju thank you so much for joining us again. You're watching the worldwide leader in live enterprise tech coverage the Cube. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: Live from Silicon Valley, it's theCUBE, covering Google Cloud Next '17. >> Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of Google Next 2017, 10,000 people are in San Francisco, SiliconANGLE media, we've got reporters there, as well as the Wikibon analysts. I've been up there for the analyst's event, some of the keynotes, and we're getting thought leaders, partners, really getting lots of viewpoints as to what's happening, not just in the Google Cloud, but really the multi-Cloud world. And that's why I'm really excited to bring back a guest that we've had on the program before, Craig Mcluckie, who, four months ago, was with Google, but he's now the CEO of Heptio, and he's also one of the co-creators of Kubernetes, which anybody that's watching the event, definitely has been hearing, plenty about Kubernete so, welcome back to the program. >> Thanks for having me back. >> Yeah, absolutely, I know you were part of, a little event that kind of went before the Google Cloud event, brought in some people in the Cloud ecosystem, talk about a lot was going on. Maybe start us off with, what led you to kind of pop out of Google, what is Heptio, and how does that kind of extend what you're doing with Kubernetes when you're at Google? >> Certainly. So Heptio is a company that has been created, by my co-founder Joe and myself, to bring Kubernetes-- >> Stu: That's Joe Beda. >> Joe Beda. >> Stu: Yeah. To bring Kubernetes to enterprises, and the thing that really motivated me to start this company was the sense that there was not a unfettered Kubernetes company in existence. I spoke to a lot of organizations, that were having tremendous success with Kubernetes. It was transforming the way they approached infrastructure management. It created new levels of portability for their workloads. But they wanted to use Kubernetes on their own terms, in ways that made sense to them. And, most every other organization that is creating a Kubernetes distro, has attached it to other technologies. It's either attached to an opinionated operating system, or it's attached to a specific cloud environment, or it's attached to a Paas, and it just didn't meet the way that most of the customers I saw wanted to use the technology. I felt that a key missing part of this ecosystem, was a company that would meet the open source community where it is and help customers that just needed a little bit more help. A little more help with training, bit of documentation support, and the tools they needed to make themselves successful in the environments that they wanted to operate in. And that's what motivated Joe and I to start this company. >> Yeah, and it's interesting, cause you look at the biggest contributors, Google's there, you've got Red Hat, you've got, as you said, people that have their viewpoint as to where that fits. I think that that helps the development overall, but maybe you can help us unpack there. Why do you want, is it separate? Is there that opinionated-ness? What's inherently sub-optimal about that? (laughing) >> I think part of the key value in Kubernetes is the fact that it supports a common framework in a highly heterogonous world. Meaning you can mix together a broad variety of things, to your needs. So you could mix together, the right operating system, in the right hosting environment, with the right networking stack. And you could run general applications that are then managed and performed in a very efficient and easy to use way. And, one of the things that I think is really important, is this idea that customers should have choice, they should be picking the infrastructure based on the merits of the infrastructure. They should pick the OS that works for them, and they should be able to put together a system that operates tremendously well. And, I think it's particularly critical, at this juncture, that a layer emerges that allows customers, and service providers, to mix together the sort of things that they want to use, and consume, in a way that's agnostic to the infrastructure and the operating environment. I see the mainstream cloud providers, taking us in some ways back to the world of the mainframe. If you think about what we're starting to see, with companies like Amazon, who are spectacularly successful in the market, is this world where you have this deeply vertically integrated service provider, that provides not only the compute, but also the set of core services, and almost everything else that you need to run. And, at the end of the day, it's getting to a point where, a customer has to kind of pick their service provider. And, you know, for using IBM, but it was also sub-optimal from an ecosystem perspective. It inhibited innovation in many ways. And it was the emergence of Wintel, that sort of Windows and Intel ecosystem that really opened up the vendor ecosystem, and drove a tremendous amount of innovation and advancement. And, you know, when I think about what enterprise customers want and need today, they want that abstraction. They want a safe way to separate out the set of services that run their business, the set of technologies that they build and maintain, from the underlying infrastructure. And I think that's what driving a lot of the popularity of Kubernetes, is this idea that it is a logical infrastructure abstraction, that lets you pick the environment that you operate in, purely based on the merits of the environment. >> Yeah, it's been a struggle, I mean, I know through my entire career in IT, we've had that discussion of "do I just standardize on what we have? Cause, the enterprise today, absolutely. Every time I put a new technology in, it doesn't displace, it adds to it. So, I talked to lots of customers, still using mainframe. They're using the Wintel stuff, they using public cloud, they're using, you know, yes and and and, and therefore, managing it, orchestrating it, doing all those pieces that are difficult. The challenge when I put an abstraction layer in, and one of the big challenges is, how to really get the full value out of the pieces that I had. Sam Ramji said that, when he was at Cloud Foundry, they were trying to make it so that you really don't care which cloud, whether it's on premises or public cloud environments. And he said one of the reasons he joined Google was because he felt you couldn't make, if you went least common denominator or something, there was things Google was doing that nobody else can do. So there's always that balance of, "can I put an abstraction layer or virtualize something, and take advantage of it?" Or "do I just go all in with one vendor?" I mean, IBM back in the day, did lots of great things to make it simple, and cloud is trying to make it simple, lots of things, Amazon of course, no doubt that they're trying to vertically integrate everything they would like to do. You know, all your services. So, where do you see that balance? And, it's interesting, does it solve customers the best to be able to say "okay, you can take your mess that you have", and therefore, is this a silver bullet to help them solve it? >> I think it's a really good point. And, consistently, as I look through history, a lot of the platforms that people have pursued, that created this sort of complete decoupling, introduced this lowest common denominator problem, where you had to trade off a set of things that you really wanted with the capabilities of the platform. And, you know, I think that absolutely, in some cases, it makes a tremendous amount of sense, to invest in a vendor specific technology. So let's take an example out of Google, Cloud Spanner. Cloud Spanner has, it's literally the only, globally consistent, well right now it's regionally consistent, but it's literally the only globally consistent relational store available. There is nothing like it. The CockroachDB folks are building something that emulates some of the behavior, but without the true time API, that sort of atomic clock, you know, crazy infrastructure that Google's built. It adds very little utility. And so, in certain applications and certain workloads, if what you really want is a globally replicated, highly consistent relational data store, there is literally only one provider on the planet that would deliver it, which is Google. However, you might look at, you know, something that Amazon provides, and they may have some other service. Perhaps you've already built something on RedShift, and you want to be able to use that. Or Microsoft might offer up some other technologies that make sense to you. And, I think it's really important for enterprises to have the option. There's times when, for a given workload, it makes tremendous amount of sense, to put on a vendor, if you're looking to run something that has, deep machine learning hooks, or needs some other science fiction technology that Google's bringing to the world. It makes sense to run that on Google. For applications that are potentially integrated into a productivity suite, if you're an Office 365 user, it probably makes sense to host it on Microsoft. And then, perhaps there's some other pieces that you run on Amazon. And I don't think it's going to be pick one cloud provider and live in the static world forever. I think the landscape is constantly evolving and shifting. And, one of the things technologies like Kubernetes provide is an option. An option to move, an option to decide which specific services you want to pull through and use in which application. Recognizing that those are going to bind you to that cloud provider in perpetuity, but not necessarily pulling the entirety of your IT structure through. >> Yeah, Craig, I'm curious. When I look out as to kind of the people that commentate on this space, one of the things they say "Kubernetes is interesting, but this whole hybrid cloud thing, kill all the on premises stuff, public cloud's really where it's at." I know when I talk to most companies, they got plenty of on premises stuff, most infrastructure that is bought is still, there's a lot of it going on premises. So companies are sorting out what applications go where, what data goes where. Diane Green, suddenly 5% of the world's data really is in the public cloud today. What's your view on kind of that on premises, public cloud piece, and Kubernetes' role there? >> Yeah, I think it's a great question. And I have had some really interesting conversations with CIOS in the past. I remember in my very earliest days, pooh-poohing the idea of the private cloud, and having a really intense CIO look across the thing and he was like "you will pry my data centers from my cold, dead hands". (Stu laughing) He literally said that to me. And so, there's certainly a lot of passion in this space, and I think, at the end of the day, one has to be pragmatic. You know, first of all, one has to recognize that, if you're an organization that has bought significant data center footprint, you're probably going to want to continue to use that asset that you've acquired, and that's, you're going to want to use that in perpetuity. If you're a company, and most large companies are also naturally heterogonous, meaning as you go through an acquisition, the acquired portion of your company may have a profoundly different IT portfolio. You know, may have a different set of environments. And so, I think the world certainly benefits from an abstraction layer that allows you to train your engineers with a certain set of skills, and then be highly decoupled from the infrastructure environment you run in. And I think, again, Kubernetes is delivering some of that promise in a way that I think really resonates with customers. >> Absolutely, and even, we've been telling people for years "stop building data centers"? You know, there's very few companies that want to build data centers even, yes Google talks about their data centers, but Amazon? Gets their data center space from lots of other players there. But, if I stop building data centers today, I'm going to have em for another 25 30 years, and even it, what am I going to owe myself? I talked to plenty of the big financial guys, they're not going to move all of their information. They want to have it under their control, whether it's their own data center, a hosted managed environment there. So, we're going to be living with this multi-cloud thing for a long time. >> There is another thing that I don't think people have fully internalized yet, which is in many ways, the way that cloud provider data centers are structured is around power sources. At the end of the day, it's around cheap power and cooling. As you start looking at the dynamics of what's happening to our energy grid, it's no longer being quite as centralized as it was. And, it starts to beg the question "does it make sense to think about smaller units that are more distributed? Does it make sense to start really thinking about Edge compute capacity?" The option to deploy something really close to your customers if you need low latency and attainment scenarios. Or, the option to push a lot of capacity into your distribution center, if you're running high, heavy IoT workloads, where you just don't want to put all that data on the network. And so I think that, again, certainly, I think that people underestimate the power of the Amazon, Microsoft and Google. People that are still building data centers today, don't realize quite how remarkable the vendors at that scale are, in terms of their ability to build and run these things. But I do think that there are some interesting options, in terms of regional locality, data sovereignty, Edge latency, that legitimize, other types of deployment. >> Yeah, and you talked about IoT, Edge computing absolutely is something that comes up a lot there. At AWS Re:Invent last year, Amazon put their serverless solution using Greengrass, out at the Edge because there's tons of centers that I might not have the networking, or I can't have the latency I need to do the compute there. How does things like serverless at the Edge, and IoT play into the discussion of Kubernetes? >> I think it plays really well, insofar as, Kubernetes, it's not intrinsically magic. What it has done is created a relatively simple, and turns out, pretty reusable abstraction that lets you run a broad array of workloads. I wouldn't say it's exactly cracked the serverless paradigm in terms of event-driven, low cost of activation computing, but that's something that can certainly be built on top of it. The thing that it does do, is it provides you the ability to manage an application as if it were software as a service, in a location that is remote from you, by providing you a very principled, automated framework for operations. >> Alright, Craig, last thing I want you to do is give us an update on Heptio. How many people do you have? How are you engaging with customers? What's the business model look like for that? What can you share? >> So, we're currently 13 people. We've been in business for four months, and we've been able to hire some really amazing folks, out of the distributed systems communities. We are at a point where we're starting to provide our first supported configurations of Kubernetes. We don't position ourselves as a distribution provider, we rather like to think of ourselves as an organization that's invested in helping users get the most of the Upstream community. Right now, our focus is on training, support, and services, and over time, if we do that really well, we do aspire to provide a more robust set of product capabilities that help organizations succeed. For now, the thing that we focus most relentlessly on is helping customers manage down the cost of supporting a cluster. How do we create a better way for folks to understand what a configuration should look like? When are they likely to encounter issues? And if they do encounter those issues, helping them resolve them in the lowest friction and least painful way possible. >> Alright, and any relationships with the public cloud guys? Or what do you work with when you talk about OpenStack, Amazon, Google, Microsoft, what's the relationship and how do those work? >> So we announced the first joint quick start for Kubernetes with the Amazon folks last Tuesday. And that's been going pretty well. We're getting a lot of positive feedback around that. And we're now starting to think more broadly in terms of providing supported configurations on premises and then on Microsoft. So Amazon, for us, was the obvious starting point. It felt like an under-supported community from a Kubernetes perspective, insofar as, Microsoft had our friend Brenda Burns, who helped us build communities in the first place. And he's been doing some great work to bring Kubernetes to the Azure container service. What we really wanted to do was to make sure that Kubernetes runs well on Amazon, and that it is naturally integrated into the Amazon operating model, so cloud formation templates, and we have a really principled way to manage, maintain, upgrade and support those clusters. >> Alright, Craig Mcluckie, co-creator of Kubernetes, and CEO of Heptio. Really appreciate you coming here to our Palo Alto studio, helping us as we get towards the end of two days of live coverage of Google Cloud Next 2017. You're watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: You are Cube Alumni. Live from Silicon Valley, it's the Cube. Covering Google Cloud Next 17. >> Welcome back to the Cube's coverage of Google Next 2017. Having a lot of conversations as to how enterprises are really grappling with cloud. You know, move from on premises to public cloud, multi-cloud, hybrid-cloud, all those pieces in between. Happy to welcome to the program a first time guest, Paul Scott-Murphy who's the vice president of product management at WANdisco, thanks so much for joining us. >> Yeah, thanks very much, it's great to be here and join your program. >> Alright, so you know, Paul, I think a lot of our audience probably is familiar with WANdisco, we've had many of your executives on, really dug into your environment for the last few years, usually see you guys a lot of not only the big data shows, we've got Strata coming up next week, last time I did an interview with you guys was at AWS re:Invent. So you know, WAN, replication, data, all those things put together, you've got a big bucket of big data in cloud. Tell us a little bit about kind of your background, your role at the company. >> Okay. So I've been at WANdisco now for about two and a half years. I previously worked for TIBCO Software for a decade. Working out of Asia-Pacific, held the CTO role there for APJ. And joined WANdisco two and half years ago, just as we were entering into the big data market with our replication capabilities. I now run product management for the company and work out of our headquarters here in the Bay area. >> Stu Miniman: Great. And connect with us you know, what you guys are doing at Google, what's the conversations you're having with customers that are attending. >> Yeah, so Google is definitely one of the key strategic partners for WANdisco, obviously particularly in the Cloud space for us. We're hosting a booth fair for the conference and using that as an opportunity to speak to other vendors and the customers that we have attending the Google conference. Particularly around what we're doing for replication between on premises and cloud environments, and how we support Google Cloud. Dataproc, and Google Cloud Storage as well. >> Can you help unpack for us a little bit, where are your customers, give us a tip of the customers, you know they're saying hey, I want to start using this cloud stuff, how are they figuring out what applications stay on premises, what goes to the public cloud, and that data piece is a challenging thing, moving data is not easy, there's a whole data gravity piece that fits into it, maybe you can help walk us through some of the scenarios. >> Yeah, as we're progressing the technology, we're certainly finding a broader and broader range of customers getting interested in what they can do around data replication. The sorts of organizations that we deal with primarily are those who are looking to leverage both on premises and cloud infrastructure. All those who are moving from a situation where they've been toying with these environments and moving into production-ready scenarios where the demands or enterprise level SLAs or availability, or the needs around disaster recovery, backup and migration use cases become a lot more dominant for them. The organizations that we work with typically they are larger organizations, we deal a lot with retail, with financial services, telecommunications, with research institutions as well. All of whom have larger needs around taking advantage of cloud infrastructure. Of course they all share the same challenge of the availability of their data, where it's sourced from, isn't always necessarily in the cloud, taking advantage of cloud infrastructure then requires them to think about how they make their information available both to their on premises systems and to the cloud environment where they can run perhaps larger analytic workloads against it, or use the cloud services that they would otherwise not have access to. >> One of the challenges we've seen is when we've got kind of that hybrid or multi-cloud environment, you know, manages my data, kind of the holes, you know, orchestrating pieces and getting my arms around how I take care of it and leverage it can be challenging. Is that something you guys help with or are there other partners that get involved, how are customers helping to sort out and mature these environments? >> Yeah it's a big question of course, you've touched on the management of data as a whole and what they means, and how organizations handle that. WANdisco's role in supporting organizations with those challenges is in ensuring that when they need to take advantage of more than one environment or when they need their data to be available in more than one place. They can do that seamlessly and easily. What we aport to do and what we encourage our customers to do with our technology is rather than keeping one copy of data on premises and using it solely there, or copying your data to another location in order that you can act upon it there, we treat those environments as the same and say well, have the best of both worlds. Have your data available in each location, let your applications use it at the local speed and do that without regard to the need for retaining a workflow by which you exchange data between environments. WANdisco's technology can take care of all of that, and to do so it has to do some very smart things under the covers, around consistency and making it work across wide-area networks. Makes it particularly suited to cloud environments where we can leverage those underlying capabilities in conjunction with the scale of the cloud which is a native home for data at scale. >> Can you give us some, you know, where do you see customers kind of in this maturation, Dan Green made a statement that today 5% of the data is in the public cloud, so what are some of those barriers that are stopping people from getting more data in the Cloud, is it something that we will just see a massive adoption of data in the cloud, or what's your guys viewpoint as to where data's going to live, how that movement is happening. >> Yeah, I think longer term the economic advantages of using cloud environments are undeniable. The cost advantages of hosting information in the cloud and the benefits that come from the scalability of those environments is certainly far surpassing the capabilities that organizations can invest in themselves through their own data centers. So that natural migration of data to the cloud is a common theme that we see across all sorts of organizations. But as many people say, data has gravity, and if the majority of your application information resides today in your own environments or in environments outside of the cloud, whether that's internet connected devices, or in points of ingest that reside outside of cloud environments, there's a natural tendency for data to remain in place where they're either ingested or created. What you need to do to better take advantage of cloud environments then is the ability to easily access that data from cloud infrastructure. So the sorts of organizations that are looking to that are those with either burgeoning problems around consuming data at multiple points. They might operate environments that span multiple contents. They might have jurisdictional restrictions around where their data can reside but need to control its flow between separate environments as well. So WANdisco can certainly help with all of those problems, the underlying replication technology that we bring to bear is very well suited to it. But we are a part of the overall solution. We're not the full answer to everything. We certainly deal very well with replication and we believe we cover that very well. >> I'm curious when you talk about kind of the dispersion of data and where it's being created, of course edge-use cases for things like IOT, are quite a hot topic at that point. Is that something you guys are touching on yet, gets involved in discussions, you know, where does that sit? >> Yeah, definitely. The interesting thing about WANdisco's approach to data replication is that we base it on this foundation of consistency. And using a mathematically proven approach to distributed consensus to guarantee that changes made in one environment are represented in others equally, regardless of where those changes occur. Now when you apply that to batch based data storage or streaming environments, or other forms of ingest is relatively irrelevant as long as you have that same underlying capability to guarantee consistency regardless of where changes occur. If you're talking about high IT environments where you naturally have infrastructure sitting outside of the cloud, and this is the type of infrastructure that needs to reside out of the cloud, right, your edge points where data are captured, where your consuming information are generating it from devices perhaps from an automotive vehicle or from an embedded device, some sort of sensor array, whatever that happens to be, these are the types of environments where it means you're generating data outside of the cloud. So if you're looking to use that inside of the cloud itself, you need some way of moving data around, and you need to do that with some degree of consistency between those environments to make sure you're not just challenged with extra copies of information. >> The other really interesting topic around data that's being discussed at the Google Cloud event is artificial intelligence, machine learning, I'm curious, are your customers involved in that, where do you see that kind of on the radar today? >> Yeah, it's obviously an absolutely critical part of where the IT industry in general is going, and the type of solution that's fed off data. These systems are better as your data set grows. The more information you have, the better they work, and the more capable they become. It's certainly an aspect of how well machine learning technique and artificial intelligence approaches have been adopted in the industry, and the rapid rate of change in that side of IT is driving a lot of the demand for increasing access to data sets. We see some of our customers using that for really interesting things. You might've seen some of the recent news around our involvement in a research project led through the University of Sheffield, looking to use data sets captured from a variety of research institutions and medical environments to solve the problem of identifying and responding to dementia. And it's a great outcome from that type of environment. Through which machine learning techniques are being applied across data sets. What you find though is that because there's a large set of institutions sharing access to data, no single data set is sufficient to support those outcomes, regardless of what intelligence you can place against the machine learning models that you build up. So by enabling the ability to bring those data sets together, have them available in a single location, being the cloud, where larger models can be assessed against the data sets means much better outcomes for those types of environments. >> Okay. Paul, in your role of product management, we've been through some of the hot buzz terms out there, how do you help the company identify those trends, focused on the ones that are important to your customers and the kind of feedback loops that you get from them. >> I guess a lot of work in the end is how we do it but we need to listen to customers directly of course, understand what they're looking to do with their information systems. What they're aiming for. Their goals at a business level, what type of value that they want to get out of their data, and how they're approaching that. That's really critical. We also need to look to the industry in general. We're obviously in a very rapidly changing environment where technologies, the organizations that build IT systems, are increasingly adopting new approaches and building systems that simply weren't available days ago. You look at the announcements from Google of late around their video intelligence APIs as a service, their image APIs as well, all new capabilities that organizations today now have access to. So bringing those things together, understanding where the general IT trends are, how that applies to our customers, and what WANdisco can do with the unique value that we bring is really key to the product management role. >> Alright, and Paul, you've been at the show, curious, any cool things you saw, interesting customer conversations that may want to give our audience a flavor of what's going on, why 10 thousand people are excited to be at the event. >> Yeah well it is a very exciting event, just the scale of these types of events run by Google and similar organizations is something in itself to behold. We're really excited to be a part of that. The things that are really interesting for me out of the show tend to be where we see customers or opportunities coming to us, identifying challenges that they can't address without the type of technology that we bring to bear. Those tend to be areas where either they're looking to do migration from on premises systems into the cloud which is obviously very strong interest for Google themselves, they need to bring customers in to take better advantage of the services that they have. WANdisco can play a strong role in that. We're seeing a lot of interesting things around the edge too, so all of the ways in which data can be used are always exciting and interesting to see. The combination of technologies like artificial intelligence, like virtual reality, the type of work that WANdisco does also, is certainly going to bring forward I think a new wave of applications and systems that we just hadn't considered even a few years ago. >> Yeah. Lots of really interesting things. There's personal assistants at home and personal assistants that are listening. Okay Google, subscribe to SiliconANGLE on Youtube. We'll be back with lots more coverage here from the Cube, talking about Google Next 2017. 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>> Announcer: Live, from Silicon Valley, it's theCUBE. Covering Google Cloud Next '17. (electronic music) >> Welcome back to theCUBE's live coverage of Google Next, here from our Palo Alto studio. Happy to welcome to the program a first time guest, Udi Nachmany, who is the Head of Public Cloud at Ubuntu, thank you so much for joining us. >> Thanks for having me, pleasure to be here. >> All right, so I think it goes without saying, anybody that understands the landscape. Oh wait, there's Cloud, there's Linux, and especially Ubuntu, you know that's going to be there. Before we get into some of these, just tell us a little bit about your role there, and inside the company. >> Sure, I've been with Canonical for about three years, and I head up our partnership with the public clouds and the public IS providers as a whole. >> Yeah. >> That includes Google, AWS, Azure, and many, many others. >> So can you just clarify one thing for us, though? >> Yes. >> You just said Canonical, I introduced you as Ubuntu. >> Yes. >> Which is it? How should we be referring to these two? Well, we are very well known for our products. >> Yeah. >> We're best well known our corporate brand and we're very happy with both names. I usually introduce myself as Udi from Ubuntu, >> Yeah. >> Slash Canonical, so we're used to that. >> Totally understand. So public cloud, give us your view on the landscape today. We want to talk specifically about some of the Google stuff, but what's happening, and what are customers to you for public cloud, where does your suite play into that environment? >> Sure, Ubuntu is a very popular OS, and I think probably the most popular, the area where we're most dominant is public cloud, So a large majority of workload's on Google Cloud, Azure, the Linux part of Azure, AWS, and many, many other providers is running on Ubuntu. A lot of high-visibility services actual develop on Ubuntu. And we have responsibility in that. We need to make the Ubuntu experience predictable and optimized for that cloud platform and have people trust that experience, and believe in it. So that's our job on a technical level, and then on the second level, our job is to help users access support and tooling on top of that, to help them with the operational reality. Because what we see, unless you've probably heard it before from Canonical, what we see is it's great that the licensing cost, the cost of software has gone down, that's great news for everyone, however what a lot of people don't realize is that the cost of operations has gone up, it's skyrocketed, right? It's great Kubernetes is open source, but how do you actually spin up a cluster, how do you deal with this architecture, what does it mean for your business? So that's where we critically focus on private and public cloud. >> Yeah, it's funny. I did an interview with Brad Anderson a few years ago, and I'm like, "Customers are complaining "about licensing costs," and he starts ranting, he's like, "Licensing costs? Do you know that licensing is 6% of the overall cost of what you have?" So, look, we understand operations are difficult, so why is that such a strong fit? What do you bring, what customers do you serve that they're choosing you in such a large preponderance? >> I think the two things we do well, one is we're very well-embedded in the industry and in the community, and pretty much where people are developing something exciting, they're developing it on Ubuntu and they're talking to us through the process. We get a really good view of their problems and challenges, as well as our own. And the second thing is we have come up with tools and frameworks to allow a lot of that knowledge to be crowdsourced, right? So a good example is our modeling platform Juju, where you can very easily get from not knowing anything about, for example Kubernetes, into a position where you have a Kubernetes architecture running on a public cloud, like Google, or in another public cloud, or in bare metal, right? So because we tackled that, we assume that somebody's done this before you, somebody's figured this out. Take all that knowledge, encapsulate it in what we call a Charm, and take that Charm and build an architecture on Juju, on the canvas, or through the CLI. >> Okay, maybe could you compare, contrast, Google, of course, has some pretty good chops when it come to Kubernetes, they're really trying to make some of these offerings really as a service, so ya know, what does Google do, what do you do? How do they work together? Are you actually partnering there or are you just in the community just working on things? >> Google is in this in two different ways. One is they have their own managed service GKE, and that's great and I think people who are all in on Google, then that's a probably a good way to go. You get the expertise, and you get the things that you need. Our approach, as always, is cloud-neutral and we do believe in a hybrid world. We are members of the CNCF, we're silver sponsors of the CNCF, we're very well-embedded in the Kubernetes community, and we do ship a pure upstream Kubernetes distribution that we also sell support for. So we work very closely with Google, in general, Google Cloud, on making sure Ubuntu runs well on GCE, and on the other side, we work very closely with the Kubernetes community in that ecosystem, to again, make sure that it becomes very easy to work with that solution. >> Every player that you talk to in the ecosystem gives you a different story when it comes to multi-cloud environments. Google's message tends to be pretty open. I mean, obviously, with what they're doing with Kubernetes and being their position of where they are with customer adoption, they understand that a lot of people that are doing cloud aren't doing it on Google's Cloud, so they want to make it, you can live in both worlds, and we can support it. I listened to Amazon today, they're like, well, the future's going to be, we're all going to be there, we're going to hire another 100,000 people throughout all of Amazon in the US in the next 18 months. And Microsoft is trying to wrap their arms around a lot of their applications, IBM and Google are there, doing their thing. You've got visibility into customers in all of these environments due to your place in the stack. What are you seeing today? How is Google's adoption going? Is one question I have for you. And two, most customers, I would think, are running kind of multi-cloud, if you will, is the term, is that what you see? How many clouds are they doing? What are you seeing, kind of shifts in there, and I know I asked you three different questions there, but maybe you can dig into that and unpack it for us. >> Sure. I think, in terms of what they, at least top three clouds are saying, I think it's more important to look at what they're doing. If you think about the AWS and VMWare announcement, if you think about Azure Stack for Microsoft, I think those are clearly admissions that there is an OnPrem story and there's a hybrid story that they feel they need to address. They might believe in a world where everybody's happy on a public cloud, but they also live in reality. >> We're on a public cloud show, we're not allowed to mitt about OnPrem, right? Next you're going to, like, mention OpenStack. >> Absolutely. And then, in terms of Google, I think the interesting thing Google's doing, Google are clearly in that, even in terms of size and growth, I think they're in that top three league. They are, my impression is they are focused on building the services and the applications that will attract the users, right? So they don't have this blanket approach of you must use this, because this is the best cloud ever. They actually work on making very good, specific solutions, like for big data and for other things, and Kubernetes is a good example, that will attract people and get them into that specific part of Google Cloud platform, and hopefully in the future, using more and more. So I think they have a very interesting more product than approach, in that sense. >> Okay, so. >> I think I answered one question. >> Yeah, you touched on, yes customers have public and OnPrem. >> Yeah. >> Kind of hybrid, if you will. What about public cloud, you know? Most customers have multiple public clouds in your data or are they tending to get most of it on a single cloud, and might having a second one for some other piece? >> Yeah, I think right now, we're seeing, is a lot of a lot of people using perhaps a couple of platforms. Especially if they have certain size, I'm putting things like serenity and data prophesy aside, but just in terms of public cloud users, they might, again, use a specific platform for a specific service, they might use bare metal servers on software, for example, and VMs on the cloud. People are, by and large, the savvy users do understand that a mix is needed, which also plays to our strength, of course, with tools like Juju and Landscape, we allow you to really solve that operational problem, while being really substrate-agnostic, right? And you don't have to necessarily worry about getting logged in to one or the other. The main thing is, you can manage that, and you can focus on your app. >> All right. Udi, what's the top couple of things that customers are coming to you at these shows for? Where do they find themselves engaging with you as opposed to just, ya know, they're the developers, they're loving what you're doing? >> Sure. So the one thing I mentioned before is operations, right? I've heard about big data, I've heard about Kubernetes. What are my options? Do I hire a team? Do I get a consultant? Do I spend six months reading about this? And they're looking for that help, and I think Juju as an open-source tool and conjure-up as a developer tool that's also open-source. Really expand their options in that sense, and make it much more efficient for them to do that. And the second thing I'd say is Ubuntu is obviously very popular on public cloud, it's popular in production, so production workloads, business-critical workloads. And more and more organizations are realizing that they need to think long and hard about what that means in terms of getting the right support for it, in terms of things like security. An example, this week there was a kernel vulnerability in Linus Distros, I don't think it has a name yet, and we have something called the Canonical Livepatch service which patches kernel vulnerabilities, you can guess by the name. Now, people who have that through our support package have not felt a thing through this vulnerability. So I think we'll start to see more and more of these, where people have a lot of machines running on different substrates, and they're really worried about their up time and what a professional support organization can help them do to maintain that up time. >> It's real interesting times, being a company involved in open sourced, involved in open cloud. I want you to react, there was a quote that Vint Cerf gave at the Google event, I was listening, they had a great session Marc Andreessen and Vint Cerf. >> Yeah it was overcrowed. >> Go there. There was actually room if you got in, but I was glad I got up there, and Vint Cerf said, "We have to be careful about fast leading to instability." What's your take on that? I hear, when I go to a lot of these shows it's like, wow, I used to go from 18 months to six months to six weeks for my deployments. And public cloud will just update everything automatically, but that speed, ya know? As you were just talking, security is one of the issues, but there's instability, what's your take on that? And how are customers dealing with this increasing pace of change, which is the only constant that we have in our industry? >> Yeah, that's very true. I think, so from conversations with customers I've had recently. I've had a few where they've been sitting around and really deliberating what they need to do with this public cloud thing that they've heard about. Trying to buy time, eventually might lead to panicking. So a big financial institution that I met, maybe a month ago are trying to move all in to AWS, right? Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing for them, whether it's the right thing for them, I don't think that discussion necessarily took place, it may well be the best thing for them. But it's the kind of, they're rushing in to that decision, because they took so much time to try and understand. On the other hand, you see people who are much more savvy, and understand that in terms of the rate of change, like you said, it's a constant, so you need to take ownership of your architecture. You can't be locked in to one box that solves all your problems. You need to make sure you have the operation agility and you're using the right tooling, to help you stay nimble when the next big thing comes along. Or the next little thing, which is sometimes just as scary. And I think, again, that's where we're very well placed and that's where we can have very interesting conversations. >> Really interesting stuff. Actually, I just published a case study with City, talking about, they use AWS, I would say tactically would be the way to put it. They build, they have a number of locations where they have infrastructure. Speed and agility absolutely something they need as an outcome. Public cloud is a tool that they use at certain times, but not... There are things they were concerned about in how they build their architectures. Want to give you the last word. We see Canonical, Ubuntu at a lot of shows, you're involved in a lot of partnerships. What do we expect to see from your cloud group, kind of over the next six months, what shall we be keeping an eye on? >> I think on the private cloud side we've been doing some great work into the toggle vertical, and I think you'll see us expanding into more verticals, like financial services, where we've had some good early successes. >> Can I ask, is that NFV-related? It was the top discussion point that I had at OpenStacks on it last year was around NFV. Is it that specific or? >> Yeah, that's an element of it, yeah, but it's about, how do I make my privat cloud economically viable as AWS or Google or Azure would be? How do I free myself from that and enable myself to move between the substrates without making that trade off. So I think that's on the private cloud side. And I think you're going to see more and more crossover between the world of platforms and switches and servers and the world of devices, web-connected devices. We just finished MWC in Barcelona last week. I think we're in the top 13 or 14 bars in terms of visibility, way ahead of most other OS platforms. And I think that's because our message resonates, right? It's great to have five million devices out there, but how do you actually ship a security fix? How do you ship an update? How do you ship an app, and how do you commercialize that? When you have that size of fleet. So that's a whole different kind of challenge, which, again, with the approach we have to operations, I think we are already there, in terms of offering the solution. So I think you're going to see a lot of more activity on that front. And in the public cloud, I'd say it's really about continuing to work ever closer with the bigger public clouds so that you have optimized experiences on Ubuntu, on that public cloud, on your public cloud of choice. And you're going to see a lot more focus on support offerings, sold through those clouds, which makes a lot of sense, not everyone wants to buy from another supplier. It's much easier to get all your needs met through one centralized bill. So you're going to see that as well. >> Udi Nachmany, really appreciate you coming to our studio here to help us with our coverage of Google Next 2017. We'll be wrapping up day one of two days of live coverage here from the SiliconANGLE Media Studio in Palo Alto. You're watching theCUBE (electronic music)

(bright music) >> Narrator: Live from Silicon Valley. It's theCUBE, covering Google Cloud Next 17. >> Okay, welcome back, everyone. We're live in Palo Alto for theCUBE special two day coverage here in Palo Alto. We have reporters, we have analysts on the ground in San Francisco, analyzing what's going on with Google Next, we have all the great action. Of course, we also have reporters at Open Compute Summit, which is also happening in San Hose, and Intel's at both places, and we have Intel senior manager on the line here, on the phone, Lisa Spelman, vice president and general manager of the Xeon product line, product manager responsibility as well as marketing across the data center. Lisa, welcome to theCUBE, and thanks for calling in and dissecting Google Next, as well as teasing out maybe a little bit of OCP around the Xeon processor, thanks for calling. >> Lisa: Well, thank you for having me, and it's hard to be in many places at once, so it's a busy week and we're all over, so that's that. You know, we'll do this on the phone, and next time we'll do it in person. >> I'd love to. Well, more big news is obviously Intel has a big presence with the Google Next, and tomorrow there's going to be some activity with some of the big name executives at Google. Talking about your relationship with Google, aka Alphabet, what are some of the key things that you guys are doing with Google that people should know about, because this is a very turbulent time in the ecosystem of the tech business. You saw Mobile World Congress last week, we've seen the evolution of 5G, we have network transformation going on. Data centers are moving to a hybrid cloud, in some cases, cloud native's exploding. So all new kind of computing environment is taking shape. What is Intel doing here at Google Next that's a proof point to the trajectory of the business? >> Lisa: Yeah, you know, I'd like to think it's not too much of a surprise that we're there, arm in arm with Google, given all of the work that we've done together over the last several years in that tight engineering and technical partnership that we have. One of the big things that we've been working with Google on is, as they move from delivering cloud services for their own usage and for their own applications that they provide out to others, but now as they transition into being a cloud service provider for enterprises and other IT shops as well, so they've recently launched their Google Cloud platform, just in the last week or so. Did a nice announcement about the partnership that we have together, and how the Google Cloud platform is now available and running and open for business on our latest next generation Intel Xeon product, and that's codenamed Skylake, but that's something that we've been working on with them since the inception of the design of the product, so it's really nice to have it out there and in the market, and available for customers, and we very much value partnerships, like the one we have with Google, where we have that deep technical engagement to really get to the heart of the workload that they need to provide, and then can design product and solution around that. So you don't just look at it as a one off project or a one time investment, it's an ongoing continuation and evolution of new product, new features, new capabilities to continue to improve their total cost of ownership and their customer experience. >> Well, Lisa, this is your baby, the Xeon, codename Skylake, which I love that name. Intel always has great codenames, by the way, we love that, but it's real technology. Can you share some specific features of what's different around these new workloads because, you know, we've been teasing out over the past day and we're going to be talking tomorrow as well about these new use cases, because you're looking at a plethora of use cases, from IoT edge all the way down into cloud native applications. What specific things is Xeon doing that's next generation that you could highlight, that points to this new cloud operating system, the cloud service providers, whether it's managed services to full blown down and dirty cloud? >> Lisa: So it is my baby, I appreciate you saying that, and it's so exciting to see it out there and starting to get used and picked up and be unleashing it on the world. With this next generation of Xeon, it's always about the processor, but what we've done has gone so much beyond that, so we have a ton of what we call platform level innovation that is coming in, we really see this as one of our biggest kind of step function improvements in the last 10 years that we've offered. Some of the features that we've already talked about are things like AVX-512 instructions, which I know just sounds fun and rolls of the tongue, but really it's very specific workload acceleration for things like high performance computing workloads. And high performance computing is something that we see more and more getting used in access in cloud style infrastructure. So it's this perfect marrying of that workload specifically deriving benefit from the new platforms, and seeing really strong performance improvements. It also speaks to the way with Intel and Xeon families, 'cause remember, with Xeon, we have Xeon Phi, you've got standard Xeon, you've got Xeon D. You can use these instructions across the families and have workloads that can move to the most optimized hardware for whatever you're trying to drive. Some of the other things that we've talked about announced is we'll have our next generation of Intel Resource Director technology, which really helps you manage and provide quality of service within you application, which is very important to cloud service providers, giving them control over hardware and software assets so that they can deliver the best customer experience to their customers based on the service level agreement they've signed up for. And then the other one is Intel Omni-Path architecture, so again, fairly high performance computing focused product, Omni-Path is a fabric, and we're going to offer that in an integrated fashion with Skylake so that you can get even higher level of performance and capability. So we're looking forward to a lot more that we have to come, the whole of the product line will continue to roll out in the middle of this year, but we're excited to be able to offer an early version to the cloud service providers, get them started, get it out in the market and then do that full scale enterprise validation over the next several months. >> So I got to ask you the question, because this is something that's coming up, we're seeing a transition, also the digital transformation's been talked about for a while. Network transformation, IoTs all around the corner, we've got autonomous vehicles, smart cities, on and on. But I got to ask you though, the cloud service providers seems to be coming out of this show as a key storyline in Google Next as the multi cloud architectures become very clear. So it's become clear, not just this show but it's been building up to this, it's pretty clear that it's going to be a multi cloud world. As well as you're starting to see the providers talk about their SaaS offerings, Google talking about G Suite, Microsoft talks about Office 365, Oracle has their apps, IBM's got Watson, so you have this SaaSification. So this now creates a whole another category of what cloud is. If you include SaaS, you're really talking about Salesforce, Adobe, you know, on and on the list, everyone is potentially going to become a SaaS provider whether they're unique cloud or partnering with some other cloud. What does that mean for a cloud service provider, what do they need for applications support requirements to be successful? >> So when we look at the cloud service provider market inside of Intel, we are talking about infrastructure as a service, platform as a service and software as a service. So cutting across the three major categories, I give you like, up until now, infrastructure of the service has gotten a lot of the airtime or focus, but SaaS is actually the bigger business, and that's why you see, I think, people moving towards it, especially as enterprise IT becomes more comfortable with using SaaS application. You know, maybe first they started with offloading their expense report tool, but over time, they've moved into more sophisticated offerings that free up resources for them to do their most critical or business critical applications the they require to stay in more of a private cloud. I think that's evolution to a multi cloud, a hybrid cloud, has happened across the entire industry, whether you are an enterprise or whether you are a cloud service provider. And then the move to SaaS is logical, because people are demanding just more and more services. One of the things through all our years of partnering with the biggest to the smallest cloud service providers and working so closely on those technical requirements that we've continued to find is that total cost of ownership really is king, it's that performance per dollar, TCO, that they can provide and derive from their infrastructure, and we focused a lot of our engineering and our investment in our silicon design around providing that. We have multi generations that we've provided even just in the last five years to continue to drive those step function improvements and really optimize our hardware and the code that runs on top of it to make sure that it does continue to deliver on those demanding workloads. The other thing that we see the providers focusing on is what's their differentiation. So you'll see cloud service providers that will look through the various silicon features that we offer and choose, they'll pick and choose based on whatever their key workload is or whatever their key market is, and really kind of hone in and optimize for those silicon features so that they can have a differentiated offering into the market about what capabilities and services they'll provide. So it's an area where we continue to really focus our efforts, understand the workload, drive the TCO down, and then focus in on the design point of what's going to give that differentiation and acceleration. >> It's interesting, the definition's also where I would agree with you, the cloud service provider is a huge market when you even look at the SaaS. 'Cause whether you're talking about Uber or Netflix, for instance, examples people know about in real life, you can't ignore these new diverse use cases coming out. For instance, I was just talking with Stu Miniman, one of our analysts here, Wikibon, and Riot Games could be considered a cloud, right, I mean, 'cause it's a SaaS platform, it's gaming. You're starting to see these new apps coming out of the woodwork. There seems to be a requirement for being agile as a cloud provider. How do you enable that, what specifically can you share, if I'm a cloud service provider, to be ready to support anything that's coming down the pike? >> Lisa: You know, we do do a lot of workload and market analysis inside of Intel and the data center group, and then if you have even seen over the past five years, again, I'll just stick with the new term, how much we've expanded and broadened our product portfolio. So again, it will still be built upon that foundation of Xeon and what we have there, but we've gone to offer a lot of varieties. So again, I mentioned Xeon Phi. Xeon Phi at the 72 cores, bootable Xeon but specific workload acceleration targeted at high performance computing and other analytics workloads. And then you have things at the other end. You've got Xeon D, which is really focused at more frontend web services and storage and network workloads, or Atom, which is even lower power and more focused on cold and warm storage workloads, and again, that network function. So you could then say we're not just sticking with one product line and saying this is the answer for everything, we're saying here's the core of what we offer, and the features people need, and finding options, whether they range from low power to high power high performance, and kind of mixed across that whole kind of workload spectrum, and then we've broadened around the CPU into a lot of other silicon innovation. So I don't know if you guys have had a chance to talk about some of the work that we're doing with FPGAs, with our FPGA group and driving and delivering cloud and network acceleration through FPGAs. We've also introduced new products in the last year like Silicon Photonics, so dealing with network traffic crossing through-- >> Well, is FPGA, that's the Altera stuff, we did talk with them, they're doing the programmable chips. >> Lisa: Exactly, so it requires a level of sophistication and understanding what you need the workload to accelerate, but once you have it, it is a very impressive and powerful performance gain for you, so the cloud service providers are a perfect market for that, as are the cloud service providers because they have very sophisticated IT and very technically astute engineering teams that are able to really, again, go back to the workload, understand what they need and figure out the right software solution to pair with it. So that's been a big focus of our targeting. And then, like I said, we've added all these different things, different new products to the platform that start to, over time, just work better and better together, so when you have things like Intel SSD there together with Intel CPUs and Intel Ethernet and Intel FPGA and Intel Silicon Photonics, you can start to see how the whole package, when it's designed together under one house, can offer a tremendous amount of workload acceleration. >> I got to ask you a question, Lisa, 'cause this comes up, while you're talking, I'm just in my mind visualizing a new kind of virtual computer server, the cloud is one big server, so it's a design challenge. And what was teased out at Mobile World Congress that was very clear was this new end to end architecture, you know, re-imagined, but if you have these processors that have unique capabilities, that have use case specific capabilities, in a way, you guys are now providing a portfolio of solutions so that it almost can be customized for a variety of cloud service providers. Am I getting that right, is that how you guys see this happening where you guys can just say, "Hey, just mix and match what you want and you're good." >> Lisa: Well, and we try to provide a little bit more guidance than as you wish, I mean, of course, people have their options to choose, so like, with the cloud service providers, that's what we have, really tight engineering engagement, so that we can, you know, again, understand what they need, what their design point is, what they're honing in on. You might work with one cloud service provider that is very facilities limited, and you might work with another one that is, they're face limited, the other one's power limited, and another one has performance is king, so you can, we can cut some SKUs to help meet each of those needs. Another good example is in the artificial intelligence space where we did another acquisition last year, a company called Nervana that's working on optimized silicon for a neural network. And so now we have put together this AI portfolio, so instead of saying, "Oh, here's one answer "for artificial intelligence," it's, "Here's a multitude of answers where you've got Xeon," so if you have, I'm going to utilize capacity, and are starting down your artificial intelligence journey, just use your Xeon capacity with an optimized framework and you'll get great results and you can start your journey. If you are monetizing and running your business based on what AI can do for you and you are leading the pack out there, you've got the best data scientists and algorithm writers and peak running experts in the world, then you're going to want to use something like the silicon that we acquired from the Nervana team, and that codename is Lake Crest, speaking of some lakes there. And you'll want to use something like Xeon with Lake Crest to get that ultimate workload acceleration. So we have the whole portfolio that goes from Xeon to Xeon Phi to Xeon with FPGAs or Xeon with Lake Crest. Depending on what you're doing, and again, what your design point is, we have a solution for you. And of course, when we say solution, we don't just mean hardware, we mean the optimized software frameworks and the libraries and all of that, that actually give you something that can perform. >> On the competitive side, we've seen the processor landscape heat up on the server and the cloud space. Obviously, whether it's from a competitor or homegrown foundry, whatever fabs are out there, I mean, so Intel's always had a great partnership with cloud service providers. Vis-a-vis the competition and context to that, what are you guys doing specifically and how you'd approach the marketplace in light of competition? >> Lisa: So we do operate in a highly competitive market, and we always take all competitors seriously. So far we've seen the press heat up, which is different than seeing all of the deployments, so what we look for is to continue to offer the highest performance and lowest total cost of ownership for all our customers, and in this case, the cloud service providers, of course. And what do we do is we kind of stick with our game plan of putting the best silicon in the world into the market on a regular beat rate and cadence, and so there's always news, there's always an interesting story, but when you look at having had eight new products and new generations in market since the last major competitive x86 product, that's kind of what we do, just keep delivering so that our customers know that they can bet on us to always be there and not have these massive gaps. And then I also talked to you about portfolio expansion, we don't bet on just one horse, we give our customers the choice to optimize for their workloads, so you can go up to 72 cores with Xeon Phi if that's important, you can go as low as two cores with Atom, if that's what works for you. Just an example of how we try to kind of address all of our customer segments with the right product at the right time. >> And IoT certainly brings a challenge too, when you hear about network edge, that's a huge, huge growth area, I mean, you can't deny that that's going to be amazing, you look at the cars are data centers these days, right? >> Lisa: A data center on wheels. >> Data center on wheels. >> Lisa: That's one of the fun things about my role, even in the last year, is that growing partnership, even inside of Intel with our IoT team, and just really going through all of the products that we have in development, and how many of them can be reused and driven towards IoT solution. The other thing is, if you look into the data center space, I genuinely believe we have the world's best ecosystem, you can't find an ISV that we haven't worked with to optimize their solution to run best on Intel architecture and get that workload acceleration. And now we have the chance to put that same playbook into play in the IoT space, so it's a growing, somewhat nascent but growing market with a ton of opportunity and a ton of standards to still be built, and a lot of full solution kits to be put together. And that's kind of what Intel does, you know, we don't just throw something out to the market and say, "Good luck," we actually put the ecosystem together around it so that it performs. But I think that's kind of what you see with, I don't know if you guys saw our Intel GO announcement, but it's really like the software development kit and the whole product offering for what you need for truly delivering automated vehicles. >> Well, Lisa, I got to say, so you guys have a great formula, why fix what's not broken, stay with Moore's law, keep that cadence going, but what's interesting is you are listening and adapting to the architectural shifts, which is smart, so congratulations and I think, as the cloud service provider world changes, and certainly in the data center, it's going to be a turbulent time, but a lot of opportunity, and so good to have that reliability and, if you can make the software go faster then they can write more software faster, so-- >> Lisa: Yup, and that's what we've seen every time we deliver a step function improvement in performance, we see a step function improvement in demand, and so the world is still hungry for more and more compute, and we see this across all of our customer bases. And every time you make that compute more affordable, they come up with new, innovative, different ways to do things, to get things done and new services to offer, and that fundamentally is what drives us, is that desire to continue to be the backbone of that industry innovation. >> If you could sum up in a bumper sticker what that step function is, what is that new step function? >> Lisa: Oh, when we say step functions of improvements, I mean, we're always looking at targeting over 20% performance improvement per generation, and then on top of that, we've added a bunch of other capabilities beyond it. So it might show up as, say, a security feature as well, so you're getting the massive performance improvement gen to gen, and then you're also getting new capabilities like security features added on top. So you'll see more and more of those types of announcements from us as well where we kind of highlight the, not just the performance but that and what else comes with it, so that you can continue to address, you know, again, the growing needs that are out there, so all we're trying to say is, day a step ahead. >> All right, Lisa Spelman, VP of the GM, the Xeon product family as well as marketing and data center. Thank you for spending the time and sharing your insights on Google Next, and giving us a peak at the portfolio of the Xeon next generation, really appreciate it, and again, keep on bringing that power, Moore's law, more flexibility. Thank you so much for sharing. We're going to have more live coverage here in Palo Alto after this short break. (bright music)

(upbeat music) >> Narrator: Live, from Silicon Valley. It's the Cube. Covering Google Cloud X17. >> Okay welcome back, everyone. We are live in Palo Alto for two days of coverage of Google Next 2017. I'm John Furrier, we're here with Tom Kemp, CEO of Centrify. No longer a startup, they're scaling up. You guys do it very well. Tom, great to see you. Welcome to the Cube. >> Great to be here. >> Saw you at RSA, you guys had an exceptional event. One Presence to show, obviously a security show, you're in the security business. But also mobile world congress will try to get you on again security's hot, front and center at mobile world congress. >> Yeah. >> Security is front and center at Google Cloud Next. Security is front and center at blank event. It's happening everywhere right? So give us the update. What is Centrify, obviously the "No Breach" is your tagline. What's up with Centrify? Give us a quick update on what you're up to. >> Yeah, absolutely. So we're a security company focused, as you said, on identity. And we really address the issue of too many passwords and too much privilege. The fundamental issue that's happening within security, is like 75 billion dollars is being spent on it, it's one of the fastest growing market segments, but it's failing because the breaches are far outnumbering, and growing at a faster rate, than the amount of money being spent on that. And so, we're trying to rethink security by looking at where are the breaches are coming from, and they're coming in from, like in the case of Podesta, stealing usernames and passwords. And Verizon said two thirds of breaches involve stolen credentials. And Forrester just recently said that 80 percent of breaches involve the compromise of privileged accounts, the rude accounts for the infrastructure etc. So if two thirds, to 80 percent of breaches involve identity, we fundamentally believe you need to focus a lot more on that, and that's what we're all about. Focusing on identity. >> And what is this? Is this a new revelation, or is this something that you guys have felt was happening for a long time, or has it just been the matter of fact, that's what's happening? >> You know it's, we have some great investors, and we have Excel, Mayfield, Index, Sigma now called Jex, and Square Adventures. And one of the board members told me, the markets come to you, because we've been doing this for over 10 years. And focusing on identity, and people are like, "Oh okay, that's interesting." But now, if you look at just the massive number of breaches that are occurring, and the focus that identity is the leading attack vector, and then you couple it with the whole move to the Cloud, I know we're going to be talking about what Google is doing in the Cloud, etc. It actually makes the problem even worse. And so we feel that we've been plugging along, doing and focusing on identity, and now kind of the market has come to us, because of the move to Cloud, and the hackers are going after identities. >> Yeah it's interesting, I saw a Facebook friend, I won't say his name for privacy, because I don't have the right to talk about it, he's in bitcoin, so obviously that world is an underbelly in itself. Yeah but, interesting thing is that he had two factor authentication on his phone, and someone hacked his phone and they sent the password back to his phone, all his bank accounts are gone. >> Oh my goodness. >> So this is an example of that privileged identity. So that even two factor authentication, in that case, didn't work. So you starting to see this, right? So what's the answer, and how does it relate to cloud? There's no perimeter in the cloud. Is it federated identity, is it some blocked chain thing, is there new model? What's your view on this, and how you guys attacking it specifically? >> Yeah, I mean in a world in which we're increasingly moving to the cloud, what can you secure? Like if I'm at a Starbucks in Palo Alto, on my Ipad, talking to Google apps, talking to sales force etc., I don't have any Anti Virus, I'm not using any next gen firewall, or VPN etc. So the focus needs to shift to securing the user. And you really need to start integrating, and leveraging, from a multi factor authentication biometrics as well. Use that phone, use the touch ID, to actually ensure that. And then also, in the cloud, start analyzing user behavior. And actually determine, well wait a minute, this person normally doesn't login from China, but now he's accessing the sales force, or Facebook etc. So, it's becoming, evolving more to utilizing mobile device as part of your identity, and it's also leveraging machine learning to understand what normal behavior is, and blocking abnormal behavior. >> And also using big data techniques, because your point about China is interesting. Anyone who travels might have had this situation, we go to Vegas a lot for the Cube, but like I'm in Vegas then I pull out an ATM withdrawal, next I go to use my other credit card, and it says "woah fraud alert." >> Tom: Yes. >> Well, wait a minute, I made a cell phone call, I took money out of the bank, and yet the credit card didn't know that I'm in Vegas. Now that's interesting, so conversely, China's accessing my accounts, and I'm making phone calls in Palo Alto, that should be obvious. >> Yeah. >> That just seems like it's just so disfragmented data sets. >> So historically, the definition of identity was a username, and a password. But, in a Cloud world, identity should be redefined in terms of your applications, your device, your location, and your activity. So, if you are trying to access an app from China, it should ask you for four or five additional bits of information, instead of two factors, it should be multi-factor, and it should include biometrics as well. So, machine learning is this going to become even more critical to reduce fraud, and the compromise of credentials. >> So, let's talk about google next. Because one of the things that, I mean really we know Google, we're living in Palo Alto, they're all around us, they're in Mountain View, Larry Page lives in the hood here. Google has always been a technology innovator, and it's clear that that's the lead for their Cloud. But the enterprise, which they're by the way serious, Dian Green is very serious with enterprise, they're just starting to move down that road. You've been there for awhile, on mobile, and in the enterprise, what is some of the things that people should know about on how hard it is in the enterprise? Specifically with Cloud, what is some of the things that you see as table stakes? >> Yeah, it's actually having meat eating sales reps out in the field. Not relying on some person who's-- >> John: Some bot. >> Yeah some bot, or some 20 year old calling from Austin, or Mountain View, but it's actually having someone there, with a technical architect, that can hop on a subway, or be there within a half hour to spend some quality time. >> John: And strategic selling too right? >> Exactly. Because they have a challenge, which is they're competing with both Microsoft and Amazon. And obviously Microsoft has the enterprise people, and Amazon is really ramping up in that area. And I think that, so you can throw the technology, but enterprise accounts want to be able to have a conversation face to face, more so than executive coming out and having a dinner with someone. >> Take me through a sales motion, because this is important. You and I have talked about this in the past, and Dave Loth and I always talk about it on the Cube. And it used to be well known in the VC circles, that sales forces are expensive because the sales motions are different. What is the typical sales motion for an enterprise like Sell. Because it's not as simple as saying, "self service, Cloud, put your credit card down," and get you know, Cooper and Eddy's support, terminal access, static IP's, virtual servers, oh by the way I got a support DB2 as well. A non Oracle database, or Oracle. >> Well, look I mean, it's very easy to have that bite over the web for when you start a developer for a new application. And Amazon's done a great job at that, Microsoft's getting there as well. So if you really want the existing applications to move to the Cloud, you have to sit down and have conversations about a hybrid Cloud environment. Because people will have on premise active directory, they'll have a set of security policies, etc. And so the conversation needs to be had, is like how do you bridge on premise, with the Cloud as well, and make that heterogeneous environment look and feel and smell like it's homogeneous from authentication, authorization, audit perspective, compliance perspective, etc. So you certainly need to first and foremost be able to put architects out there, have that conversation, etc. And you just can't rely too much on partners. And I think from there service level agreements, and then also showing that your Cloud platform is incredibly secure as well. >> Yeah I would agree, I would just say one, on the meat eating sales rep, basically what that means people understand the domain, with an architect technically that's going to SC, and then you have to really kind of have an understanding that there's a multiple stakeholder role. One's a recommender, one's an influencer, one's a decision maker, and it is a campaign. It's a multi pronged campaign. >> Yeah you have to think-- >> John: Know their problems, give them a solution, value creation. >> Absolutely. >> John: Value selling. >> Because there's just a level of complexity. And again I'm not saying that Google for new projects, with the current sales motion, can't bring on an app, and maybe that app leverages their machine learning, which seems to be world class right? >> TensorFlow's getting great traction, Intel's building chips for that as well. >> Yeah. >> Google owns a great developer mind share, and I think they've really cracked the code on open source, and they have great empathy with the developers, we were talking about with Val earlier. But with operationally I just see a disconnect. And Amazon's quietly ramping up too, they're no spring chicken either when it comes to direct selling, but they're been working more years on that. >> And I think you seen the word Hybrid Cloud, and I know you spent time with the folks at Vmware, talking about the relationship with Ama... That's all about the Hybrid Cloud, which people need, the enterprises need a bridge and on ramp. And I think, from our perspective- >> Vmware is very solid with Gelsinger and their sales force. They're very, >> Yeah absolutely. >> Very strong with enterprise selling. >> And that's what we focus, cause we initially started on premise, we tied things in to active directory for example, but now we have a Cloud platform, and we advertise and promote ourselves as addressing identity for the Hybrid environment, and providing the bridge between the two, and I think that's critical. >> Now do you guys have an enterprise sales force, right? >> Absolutely. >> So you've invested in that, over ten years? >> Oh yeah, absolutely. So we have over 60 percent of the Fortune 50, and 80 percent of our sales comes from the Global 2000. We've grown, we're over 100 million in sales, so we're in there having that conversation with enterprises all the time. >> So Tom, so we know Diane Green lives in the neighborhood, so let's pretend she calls us up, "Hey Tom, John, come over. "We'll have a cocktail, and dinner. "I need your advice on how to ramp up my enterprise, "operational empathy, and strategy." What would we advise her? What would you advise her, I have my own opinion. But go to you first. >> I really think and focus on, obviously use the machine learning as a key wedge for new applications, but really focus on the concept of Hybrid. And she mastered going from physical to virtual. Now, everyone's virtualized, and so she needs to figure out how I can get virtual to Cloud, V to C, right? And have the people, and have the conversation, and provide bridging technologies as well. So I think that is going to require, not just purely Cloud based stuff, but it's going to probably provide, she's going to need, either through partnerships, or developer stuff. >> Or M and A. >> Or M and A, she's going to have to build connectors, to help facilitate the bridging, because she can go after definitely the 20 percent of the new stuff, but if you want to attack the 80 percent of the existing stuff, and she did a masterful job of going physical to virtual-- >> At VMware. >> At VMware, and now her challenge is to go V to C. Virtual to Cloud. >> So my advice, Diane if you're watching, is the following: One, don't screw up the Google formula. And I know she's transforming Google, and that's a good thing, they need that right now. But I think, what I like about what I'm seeing at Google Next right now is that they have great technology chops. In kind of the Google, pat themselves on the back kind of way, which is they got mojo, they've always had great technology mojo, and that comes down from the founder. So the machine learning stuff, the AI, the stuff that they're doing in their portfolio has, I call the coolness-relevant factor on the tech. What I would do, is I would specifically nurture that, cause she's also a good knack for doing innovative things, and she's very innovative manager, and I've seen that at Vmware, and other places that she's been advising. So she's got a knack for, "Ahh that's cool, look we should do that cool technology "that's going to have legs in the future." So she's got a good sage picking out the technology. I would do an M and A. I would just stop expanding the existing Google culture relative to that sales motions and the enterpriseness, and just go buy somebody. Spend the billion dollars, or more, take someone out whose got full global, regional sales force, why not? Because then those guys already have the relationships, so the buy, build, to the sales force might take too long. I'm not sure that they could get there. I mean, what do you think about that? >> Yeah I think it's, I think they've been public about it. I think they have to invest in their own, but I do think that M and A, I mean they're number three, and they got to do something. Clearly the machine learning AI stuff is going to be huge. We're actually very impressed, I got emails from the folks at the show, about this whole video stuff, in terms of their ability to use the machine learning, and AI to interpret video, which is pretty impressive. But again that's going to be more for a vertical. Or a specific type of application. And so I think they're going to need to do a combination . >> Here's the thing that I'm seeing though. There's a speed of Google, and there's a speed of enterprise. They might have to throttle down, I don't want to say dumb down, that's particularly not the issue, it's more of throttle down the cadence of what enterprises are comfortable with. For example, SLA's, their SLA's are a little bit gray area, but they're awesome on, "hey it only costs X dollars, "import this great data and crunch all this stuff." So they've got great pricing. >> They need to master, Diane did a masterful job of like, overnight she had a utility that could go P to V, and you flipped it up, and everything just magically worked. And they need to prove that they can forklift the applications, with minimal to no changes, and things magically work. And that requires a bunch of software partnership technology, that it's like flipping a switch to go the Cloud. And if you don't like it, then you can roll it back as well. >> What's their security in position in your mind? You've done an audit, you been keeping track of it, or they're secure. Or what's the needs of the enterprise that they should be addressing for security? Well you guys have a relationship with any other booth at the event. >> Yeah absolutely, and we integrate at multiple levels as well. I think they're doing a pretty good job, I think that other vendors like Microsoft are really more heavily investing in areas that we're in, such as identity, so Microsoft has basically replicated the playbook with active directory, and they have something called Azure AD, and so Google doesn't have anything that's equivalent. That's good for us, that actually leads to opportunities, but they could do more in the areas of identity. I think if you look at what Amazon's doing in terms of web application firewalls, and protecting applications that are being spun up in the cloud. I think those are areas that can be improved. Encryption, key management, etc. So if you look at the slide that they have where they say insecurity, I think they list three items, but then if you were to compare it to say Microsoft, or Amazon, they've got five, six, seven items right there as well. I think that there's definitely going to be needs and requirements that need to be met and addressed there. So it's good, for us. >> Well to me it's just a matter of their evolution, they can only go as fast as they can go. That's what the people that I tend to talk to don't get. They can be critical of Google, but at the end of the day they can only go so fast. >> Yeah, and also another bit of advice, is they do have a very good install base with Gsuite, formerly Google apps, but they got to do a better job of leveraging that when people try to move to infrastructure as a server-- >> I think they're taken that advice because it was clear that they're at this event, was they're showcasing a lot of the stats on Gsuite, they're also talking about the apps. And that's consistent with IBM, Oracle, and Microsoft. They're throwing in their Sass layers as part of the stack as well. That's how they can differentiate from Google. What else do they have right? >> Really it's almost like a startup company that's been around for a few years. They have their initial product, and they come out with their second product and the board members will say, "Well what's the adoption of cross selling "the new product with the existing?" And so it should be interesting to see if they can get people that bought in to the Gsuite vision, to say, "Oh okay, now I'm going to start firing up servers "on the Google Cloud platform." >> Well you bring up a good point about their Gsuite, and I mentioned Microsoft using Office 365 as an example. Oracle throws their apps into the blender, if you will. On the numbers and everything. It's interesting Wikibon research is showing that the past layers squeezing, that's a big debate in our own research team, but Gartner research that I just recently looked at from February. Basically there's a new talk about Sass, so if you start including Sass, then you got to open up the conversation to Salesforce, Adobe, and on and on and on. Because there's a Cloud service provider model out there. Linkedin's a service provider. So what is Sass, I always look at it like what's the Sass equation look like. I mean, what does Cloud really look like? >> I look at the statistics, because we address both infrastructure as a service, and software as a service as well, with our identity solutions. Clearly infrastructure as a service is a much bigger market, Sass is pretty significant, but if you add up Sass, infrastructure, and Pass, it's about 24 billionish right there. But guess what, Amazon already has over 10 of it last year. Amazon has 40 percent of the Cloud market as well. And they've proven that you don't have to have a Sass capability to be incredibly successful in the Cloud. >> Well they have their one Sass that was called Amazon.com, but they broke that out. Alright, Tom what's next for you guys at Centrify. What's on your, anything coming up, things you're working on, share some quick plug for Centrify, and the progress you're making in status? >> We've been doing this for 10 years, and we feel really good about providing basically a platform for identity. And one theme and trend that we're seeing a lot of in the security market is that buyers have security fatigue, they're so sick of dealing with point solutions, and I think that's working to our advantage, that people are looking at a vendor such as us, that can address, not only single sign up, but multi-factor authentication, privilege account management as well. So we're very much focused these days on providing a set of solutions that are all built on a platform, and just kind of filling in-- >> When you say fatigue, you mean sprawl and applications they're buying just another platform, because they do try to try everything, why wouldn't they? They're getting tired of that? >> In security you just have a lack of security knowledge. There's a huge skills gap when it comes to security. And if you have to buy a point solution to address every little bit of security, you just can't hire people, right? And then you find that you have air gaps that actually makes you less secure. And so we've over time built this platform up, and now we're really seeing that people are like, I don't have to get a standalone EMM, a standalone SSO, a standalone MFA solution, a standalone password vault solution etc. So we're very much focused on selling our platform to customers and with this whole mindset of customers wanting to consolidate vendors. Historically vendor consolidation was about buyers wanting that, but now IT people want that. And so we're really just focusing on, internally articulating how we can actually address a lot of problems that people have with too much privilege, and too many passwords. >> And you guys are expanding your sales force team? >> Oh absolutely. We've definitely hit the critical mass. We're over a hundred million sales, we're growing fast, we're cash flow positive as well. >> John: Alright, congratulations. The VC's happy. Time to go public, so what's your evaluation? Unicorn. >> No comment on that, rule 40 and all that fun stuff. We got a lot of checkboxes right there. >> I think your VC partner is right, your investor, the world is spinning towards you because if you look at the identity, and nearly everything in the digital world, whether it's Cloud, data, or packets or people. It's going to be a persona based focus. Not like, what company you work for. >> We had this huge trend of consumerization of IT, so it's really about the user. So focus on securing the user, not focusing on securing the network, because the network's gone. >> Finally, 30 years later, it's coming back to the user. It's been talked about, the passports, the digital wallet. >> Exactly. >> John: Tom Kemp, CEO of Centrify, a hot startup growing over 100 million in sales. Heard here on the Cube. Very successful company. Really have a nice approach, world's spinning towards them. Really hopefully a great solution for our security and our liberties so we don't get hacked over and over again. It's the Cube, bringing you all the coverage of Google Next, here in the studio I'm John Furrier. Be right back with more, after this short break. (resonant techno music)

(The Cube Theme) >> Voiceover: Live from Silicon Valley, it's the Cube, covering Google Cloud Next '17. >> Hey, welcome back here, and we're here live in Palo Alto for a special two days of coverage of Google Next 2017. I've John Furrier here in The Cube. We have reporters and analysts on the ground who are calling in, getting reaction on all the great news, and of course, Google's march to the enterprise cloud really is the big story, of course, they have their cloud they've been powering with their infrastructure and it had great presence, powering their own stuff, just like Amazon.com had Amazon webservices, Google Cloud now powering Google and others. Diane Green, new CEO, taking the reins, making things happen, we covered that news, and for an entrepreneurial perspective we have Tarun Thakur who is a co-founder and CEO Datos.io, former entrepreneur at Data Domain, been in the business, newly funded, Series A entrepreneur funded with True Ventures and Lightspeed. >> That is correct, John, thank you. >> Thanks for coming on. Tell us what you guys do first. Explain what you guys as a company are doing. >> Absolutely. I'd love to first thank you for the opportunity. It's a pleasure to be here. About Datos, I'll sort of zoom out a little bit and if you really see what's really happening out in the industry, our founding premise, me and my co-founder, Prasenjit, our founding principle is very simple. There are some transformative changes happening in the application era. I was just listening to Akash talk rom SAP, and enterprise workloads are moving to the cloud. That was our founding premise, that not only do you not have those IOT workloads, these SAS workloads, the real time analytics workloads, being born in the cloud, but you have all these traditional workloads that are moving as fast as they can to the cloud. So if you really look at that transformative change, we have a very simple founding premise: applications define the choice of the IT stack underneath it. What do we mean by that? The choice of the database, the choice of the storage, the choice of all the data management tooling around it, starting with protection, starting with governance, compliance, and so on and so forth, right? So if the application workloads are under disruption, and they're moving to the cloud, the impact it has on the IT stack underneath is phenomenal. >> So Tarun, you guys had a great write-up in the Register, Chris Miller, who is well known in the story, 'cause we all follow him, he's a great guy, and very fair, but he can be critical, too, he's very snarky. We like his columns. He called you guys the Tesla of the backup world. What does he mean by that? Does he mean it like you have all the bells and whistles of a modern thing, or is there a specific nuance to why he's calling you the Tesla of the backup world? >> No, this is excellent, John. You know, we are fortunate and we're honored. >> Electric backup? I mean, what's happening here? (laughing) I mean, what does he mean by that? What's the meaning? >> Couldn't have given us a better privilege than what he gave. Had a chance to host him in the office, small office, much smaller than what you have here, in December, and a 45 minute session became a two hour session and really he dug into why the Tesla, and essentially it goes back to, John, you had the traditional workloads running on your traditional databases, classical scale-operational databases like Oracle and SQL. Now, you're dealing with these next generation, hyperscale distributed applications. IOT real time analytic is building on that team, those are being deployed fundamentally on distributed architectures. Your Apache Cassandra, your Amazon Dynamo DB, your Google Spanner, now that we're talking in the context of Google Cloud Next, right? When you look at those distributed architectures, there's so much fundamental shift. You don't run them on shared storage, you don't have media servers anymore in the cloud- >> You have the edge. You have the edge out there. >> You have the edge computing. Given all those changes, you have to fundamentally rethink of backup, and that's essentially what we did. Just going back to Tesla, Tesla was started with a fundamentally seminal architecture. >> So you thought this from the ground up. That's essentially one point, and the other one is that it's modern in the sense of it's really taken advantage of the new architecture. >> That's absolutely right, you know, when we started, again, back in June of 2014, we really started with the end in mind, ten years, the next ten years ahead of us, and the end in mind was, "Look, it's going to be distributed architectures, "it's going to be your hyperscale applications, the webscale applications, and you need to be able to understand data and protect it and recover it and manage your data at that scale. >> Okay, so you guys are also Google partners, so you have an interesting perspective. You're on the front lines, Series A entrepreneur, you haven't cleared the runway yet. You still have to prove yourself. The game is just starting; you don't end it with the financing. That's just validation for the vision and the mission, and you've had some good press so far from Chris, now as you execute, you have a partner in Google. What's your analysis of Google, and as someone who's close to them, certainly as an entrepreneur, you're nimble, you're fast, you understand the tech, you mentioned Spanner, great horizontal scale of opportunity, but some of the enterprises might be a little slower, and they have different orientation, so help us understand what's Google doing? What's their main focus? >> I'll give you an answer in three part series. Number one, we are, again, a start-up, seriously, as you said, we have a lot ahead of us, even though we've been out here for three years, it feels like yesterday. (laughing) >> John: It's a grind. >> It is a grind, but to partner Google Cloud, one of our key marquee customers, a Fortune 100 home improvement retailer, under NDA, cannot take their name out of respect. >> John: Well the register says Home Depot. (laughing) >> Okay. >> Okay, so- >> I'll let Chris do the honor, but it's a Fortune 100 home improvement retailer, John, and their line of business, their entire e-commerce platform, the CIO down has moved their entire platform, migrated from DB2 to Google Cloud. It's not running on DB2 on Google Cloud platform, it's running all on a distributed massive scale- >> So did they sunset DB2 or did they completely- >> Tarun: Completely migrated away from DB2. >> Okay. >> It's part of the digital transformation journey Home Depot is at. They are three years in, they have two more years to go, and as part of the digital transformation journey they're on, they are now running their e-commerce website, which, think of you and I going to Thanksgiving and buying your home tools, and that application runs on a highly scalable Apache Cassandra database on Google Cloud. Now, second part, going back to large-scale enterprises, Home Depot, being how progressive they are, they understood cloud does not mean recoverability. Cloud gives me the scale, cloud gives me the economics, cloud gives me the availability, but it doesn't give me the point in time, and I need myself to be covered against that "what if" moment. We have hold-the-delta moments, we have hold-the-gitlack moments, SalesForce.com down with that human error, right? You don't want to be in that position as a Home Depot. >> You mean Amazon went down? >> Tarun: And Amazon. >> Yeah, Amazon went down. >> And if you read the analysis, the analysis was, "We're sorry guys, there was a human error. "Somebody was meant to change this directory; "he changed that directory." >> So this is a whole new game. One of the fears that the enterprises have is that in a new architecture, besides security, which is a huge issue, we'll have another segment on that shortly, but is that I want to leverage the capabilities of the partner in the cloud, because manageability, certain things, I don't want to build on my own, and so I can see you guys being a new modern piece because the data piece is so important because I'm storing at the edge, I'm not moving data around, so there's no data in motion as much as it is on premise. Is that a big part of this? >> It is, from a, I'll zoom out again, from a CIO perspective, we pitched this to about 100+ CIOs so far. From there it is truly, and I hate to use this word, but it's truly a multi-cloud world, John. They have invested in private clouds and an on-prem infrastructure that ain't going anywhere anytime soon. They are moving some of their SAP instances to a CenturyLink, MSPs, the managed service providers, but they know, as a CIO, I have my application developers and I have my lines of businesses- >> John: And they have their operations guys, too. >> Who want to go as fast as they can. I'll come back to the operations in a second because you'll be very surprised to hear this, but again from a CIO down, he wants to make his application developers to go as fast as they can, and he wants the lines of business just to go open up the next applications- >> John: Because that's top-line revenue right there. >> That's top-line revenue right there. So they want scale, they want agility, but they don't want to sacrifice that insurance piece. Going back to the IT ops and the dev-ops and the classical ops, you'll be surprised, we've been working with this team, our lead-in to the Fortune 100 home improvement retailer was a line of business, but right now it's all about their core IT team. Their IT ops team, the database admins, the database ops people, they are the ones who are really running this product day-to-day, day in and day out, and scaling it, and using it at the pace they need to. >> What's the big misconception, if you could point to, about Google, because one of the things we're trying to surface is that Amazon and Google, it's not apples to apples comparison, they're different clouds, and it is multi-cloud, I want to get you to that question today, but we can get to that in a second, what your definition of that means, but for now, what is the big misconception in your mind, people might misconstrue with Google? >> That's a great question, John, and I was hearing your previous interview with Akash, and again, I'll give you our partner-centric view; a young start-up built something disruptive for that platform. We got Amazon as the first platform. We have a good set of customers running on Amazon, and of course, this home improvement retailer took us to Google Cloud, "Hey guys, if you want to work with us, "you have to support Google Cloud." We went to Google Cloud, and the amount of pull that we got from Google Cloud folks to make it happen in less than three months was phenomenal. They didn't stop at that. They brought their solution architect team, Google Cloud, wrote a paper about Datos, their team, and posted it on their website. "How to use Datos on Google Cloud." Fascinating. Amazon has never done that. It, again, speaks to if you see all the announcements that came out yesterday, Google Cloud has been a significant- >> Well Google's partnering, Google's partnering, one of the things that came out of today's news that has been teased out is Diane Green said in the keynote, "I like partnering." She used the word, "I like partnering," meaning Google, and she has that DNA. She's from VM, where she knows the valley game, she understands ecosystems. She also likes to work on some cool stuff, which could be a double-edged sword. She's always been innovating. But Google has the tech, and she knows enterprise, so they're marching down that road. What areas would you say Google needs to sharpen up a little bit to kind of move faster on? I mean, obviously there's no critique on them; they're pedaling as fast as they can, but in the areas you think they should work on, is it security, is it the data side, what are the things that you think they've got to pedal a little faster on. >> I would definitely start with enterprising touch. I think they need to really amp up the game around enterprise. >> John: You mean the people, the process? >> The people, the processes, the onboarding, the deployment, giving them the blue templates, giving them reference architectures, giving them, hand ruling them a little bit, and I think that'll go a long ways- >> John: The basic enterprise motions. >> Yes, you need that. You're a cloud; that doesn't mean my database guy is not going to need the help of a Google Cloud admin to help me onboard. They need that wrap-up. From their point on they build phenomenal scalable services. Snap invested two billion dollars in Google Cloud. They understand- >> And Amazon got the other half, but- >> The underlying infrastructure is there. >> Yeah but this is the thing. The problem that, the problem is that there's two perspectives of what we see. One is people want to run like Google in the sense of how they're scaling, but not everyone has Google-like infrastructure, so I think Google has to kind of, they want the developers, in my mind, they get a A+ there, with open source, what they do with Kubernetes and whatnot, the operational orientation is something they've got to work on, SLAs are more important than price. >> Managing the orchestration piece, giving them the visibility, letting them come on and come off, and going back to multi-cloud, I'll tell you again, the same customer took us to a use case, which is so fascinating, John. They want on-prem backup and recovery. Remember, protection is the Trojan horse. Protection, it all starts with protection. >> It's always one of those things that's always been front and center. You saw that. It used to be kind of a throw-away thing. "Oh, what about backup? "Oh, we didn't factor in." Now it's front and center, certainly cloud is going to be impacted because data's everywhere. Data's going to be highly frictionless. Okay, question, and final question on this piece, where we talk about what you guys are doing, what does multi-cloud mean, or two questions: what is the definition of multi-cloud, and what does cloud-native mean to you? Define those terms. >> Absolutely. Those two terms are very, very close to us. So multi-cloud, I'll begin with that. I'll give you a customer use case that will hopefully ground the conversation. A multi-cloud essentially means from a customer perspective, I'm going to run on-prem infrastructure, I want to be able to recover or manage that data in the cloud, I don't want to make multiple copies, I don't want to duplicate data, I want to recover a version of that data in the cloud, why? Because I have my application developers who want to test staff. I want my DR to be in a different cloud. I do not want to put all my eggs in one basket. So again, it is truly- >> John: It's a diversity issue. >> It is, and they want multiple-use cases to be spread across clouds. Some clouds have strength in DR, some clouds, like Amazon, have strength in orchestration, and onboarding, and some cloud platforms like Google Cloud have strengths in, hey, you can bring your application developers and you don't have to worry about retail. Some of the retailers, like Gap, like Safeway, like eBay, those guys will hesitate to go to Amazon because they know Amazon, at the heart, is a retail business. >> So conflict there. Now, cloud-native. Define cloud-native. >> Cloud-native, to us, is you have Oracle running that database natively within the services of the cloud. For example, take Amazon Dynamo DB. It's a beautiful example of a cloud-native service. You don't run Dynamo DB on-prem. It was built ultimately for the cloud. Cloud Spanner, another example of cloud-native. It is built for that infrastructure, floor ground up, and has been nurtured for the last ten years for the elastic infrastructure. >> Alright, Tarun, great to have you on. Quick plug for what you guys are doing. What's next? You got the Series A, you're getting customers, you got a big customer you can't talk about, but it's in the Register article, Home Depot. What other things are you working on? What's the key priorities? Hiring? You've got some new announcements coming up I hear. Rumor mill, I won't say who they are, but you're partnering. What's the key focus? What's your key objectives? >> No, we only stay focused on building, and as you early on said, it's still early for us. We want to stay focused on getting customer acquisition, customer momentum, deploying those customers, making them happy customers, having them become referenceable customers for us, and of course, the next big focus for me personally is going to be bringing some of the people in the team, some of the people who can help me scale the company- >> John: Engineering- >> Engineering, marketing, business development, sales, go to market, so that's going to be second we're to focus, and third, and again, you'll hear the announcement coming very quickly, we're going to be partnering with some of the leading enterprise infrastructure companies, both on their enterprise traditional storage companies, and some of the leading, I'm just going to leave it at that. >> And True Ventures is the seed investor and Lightspeed on the Series A, the True company on the Series A with them. 'Cause they tend to follow, they don't leave you hanging. >> Yeah, Puneet is excellent. I love him. >> Yeah, John Callahan's company's got great stuff. And they had some great eggs, they had FitBit and they've got a lot of great stuff going on. >> Well they're excellent, excellent pro-entrepreneur people. Great to work with as well. >> High integrity, great people. Tarun, thanks for coming on and sharing the entrepreneurial perspective, the innovation perspective, certainly as a Google partner, good to have your reaction and analysis. >> Thank you, John. >> It's The Cube, bringing you all the action from Google Next here in our studio. More Google Next coverage after this short break. (The Cube Theme)

>> Man: Hold on, let me check. (musical fanfare) >> Narrator: Live from Silicon Valley, it's the Cube, covering Google Cloud Next '17. (busy electronic music) >> Okay, welcome back everyone. We're live in Palo Alto Studios, looking at media as the Cube, our new 4500 square foot studio where we can do broadcasts here, and of course we're covering a two day special, coverage wall-to-wall with Google Next 2017 in San Francisco. We just had the exclusive video with Sam Yen from SAP talking about the new relationship between Google Cloud Platform and SAP, SAP HANA, and also SAP Cloud platform. On the phone right now with reaction to the news in San Francisco is Akash Agarwal, GVP with SAP, Cube alumni, good friend. Akash, welcome to the Cube coverage and thanks for taking the time. >> Akash: Thanks John, we are proud to helping out. >> Akash, you've been intimately involved in a variety of very cool things with SAP. One of them has been the Apple announcement where you guys have a strategic relationship with Apple Computer, and at Mobile World Congress you've released the general availability of the developer kit, SDK, now shipping. On the heels of that amazing news, you now have a deal with Google Cloud. You also have a deal with Amazon Web Services, to be clear, but this a pretty comprehensive strategic deal. All the heavy hitters flying in from Germany. We had talked to Sam, we're talking to you. What is the reaction in Moscone in San Francisco around the SAP Google relationship news? >> Akash: I think, so the reaction is very positive and I think what this sort of shows everybody here that our friends at Google are very serious about the enterprise, and as such, they have extended a very warm hand in partnering with SAP and bringing what I call transactional and enterprise workloads onto Google Cloud, and I think that's a very significant change from what Google Cloud was doing in the past, they are supporting all kinds of workloads, but they're now really focusing on helping enterprises kind of transition into the cloud. I think SAP can act as a massive catalyst for that effort. >> It also brings a huge amount of credibility to the Google Cloud Platform, certainly in the enterprise. SAP has been a leader, powering some of the biggest business in the world with your software system of records, certainly the database is evolving. You've had cloud, you've had HANA, data analytics for many years, I can almost, I think seven years I've been to Sapphire, Bill McDermott, and back then Schnabel, was talking about analytics. This really hits home, because Google has a great mind share with the developer community, they actually have great empathy, they understand developers and open source, certainly they understand cutting edge technology. But now with SAP, this seems to be a nice lucky strike and a lightning strike, if you will, for developers to monetize with SAP, because you guys have real big paying enterprise customers that could use some cloud native. Is that how you see it? Help us understand the impact to developers and then the impact to customers. >> Akash: Yeah, I think the opportunity is multifold, as I would explain it. Customers, our customers and Google customers can take SAP workloads onto Google Cloud, and that is in the form of taking HANA and running any applications that run on top of HANA onto Google Cloud. I think that's kind of one piece of the announcement that we've made today. The second piece, and I think that's what you're alluding to is around developers, and those developers could be our developers, SAP's 2.5 million developers, it could be a multitude of developers that are attracted to Google and all the services that Google provides. But what they can do now is to leverage SAP's HANA Express product which is a developer centric product, and then run that on Google Cloud Platform, and build applications that could leverage HANA technology and build next generation of applications, either applications that are net new that can take data from any data source, or applications that want to extract data from SAP. The final thing that we also now as part of our HANA cloud platform or SAP Cloud platform is the ability to take the cloud foundry components of our SAP Cloud Platform and make them available on Google Cloud Platform and that. That, as you can see, is a very rich environment. We've extended Google's palette of services to include our SAP Platform as a service components to help fast track developers who want to build enterprise class applications that want to interchange data that's already in SAP systems or want to store stuff in our HANA database that is now going to be able to run on Google Cloud Platform. I think that's what has been announced here. It's quite a lot and I think over the coming months, developers will be able to get access to that, and if they can get access to it, on the Google Cloud Launcher platform later today they should be able to get a copy of the SAP HANA Express product. >> What is the impact to SAP? Because we spoke recently at the Amazon Web Services reinvent, Akash, obviously, you have a relationship with them as well. But this really kind of gives SAP a new set of capabilities for developers that aren't familiar with SAP. You have, certainly, a huge ecosystem of developers that are SAP centric, now a new community's developing for SAP, how do you see that unfolding for SAP and what are you guys doing specifically to onboard those developers and really give them the seamless tooling that they need so that they don't have to worry about all the engineering and the back office, database. What goodness are you bringing to those developers to make their life? >> Well, and I think first and foremost we've expanded the market, we are giving them access to great public cloud platforms in Amazon AWS, in Microsoft's Azure, and now with Google Cloud Platform. Now, a developer that wants to develop using SAP Cloud platform and SAP HANA has a choice, and they can now, depending on the expertise they have, depending on what they want to do, they can very easily leverage any of those three major cloud platforms. We're giving them choice and I think the world wants choice. We're making it easy, so that's number one. Number two, our SAP Cloud platform enablement teams are there to help cross track people. We're making it easy for developers to start working on products that are easy for developers such as the HANA Express, and they can, 32 GB worth of data that they use is free to use, and then they can go to SAP store and get a license key, and then enable that license key on any of the other public cloud providers as they expand and extend their systems. As you can see, I think we're giving them choice, we're giving them a lot of capability in terms of enablement, and then we're giving them a product which they can get started with with no friction. >> I want to ask you a question, Akash, because I know you have a lot of industry's view of the landscape. I was clarifying this morning in a blog post and also here on the Cube that you really can't compare Google Cloud to Amazon, they're two different worlds. You have apples and oranges, if you will. Why, help people understand real quickly, why, what is the Google Cloud all about? Because we really want to separate that conversation, they're not really apples to apples, it still is cloud, but there are differences. What is the key take away for users and customers about Google Cloud and what's the differentiation for them vis a vis other approaches? >> Well, that's not something that, I'm not the world expert on Google Cloud Platform, and I think that's something our friends at Google can kind of give you a very good rundown on. But, obviously, Google prides itself at, instead of services that are very data centric, they have, obviously, decades of experience in running their own services, and they're opening up some of those capabilities and making them available to their customers. We felt that we need to kind of double down on Google Cloud Platform and support that just like we're supporting the AWS platform and Azure. We believe that these are three major cloud platforms, each of them have their own uniqueness and capabilities, that these companies market and promote. I think it's best that you get someone from Google to comment on some of the differences, because I think there are quite a few, and I would be remiss at highlighting those. >> That's fair, appreciate that, and we'll try to have someone on in 5:00, we'll hopefully get someone slotted in. Final question for you, Akash. What's in it for the developers? To share your perspective on what you're excited about, that developers that don't know SAP should be excited about. What's the real opportunity for them in relevant? >> I think today a Google Cloud Platform developer has suddenly a window into the SAP world. The SAP world is big, it's very rich in usage, and those customers are large, they're interesting customers doing very complex things. I think it opens them up to grabbing the digital transformation ways that's hitting a lot of customers. I think what this can do to those developers is give them a window into a world that they perhaps didn't have before, because today, with SAP technology becoming available on Google Cloud Platform, they could suddenly target enterprise use cases that perhaps they were not doing before. These are transactional use cases. Obviously, both transactional and analytical type use cases, what we call OLAP use cases suddenly become important. I think the IoT opportunities are very interesting for developers. The industrial Internet is in full swing. Just coming back from Mobile World Congress, I think that was the theme, everything is connected. We can get you access to the customer record, we can get you access to the product, the SKU, that's all in SAP systems, and suddenly, the developer can access those systems to build next generation engagement applications as part of a digital transformation that the company may be doing. >> Yeah, I think Google could lean on you guys a little bit too, for partnering with the IoT certainly. Not a lot mentioned, maybe we'll hear more tomorrow, but I do think that, if I'm a developer, I would look at you guys as a innovation ground for using AI and using that data analytics making it very intelligent. You have the store of the data, you have the database. Congratulations to Akash, really appreciate you taking the time, on the ground in San Francisco. Akash Agarwal, GVP at SAP, friend of the Cube, a regular contributor here on our new studio programs. Thanks so much for taking the time and giving us a reaction and breaking down the news for us on the SAP Google relationship. >> Akash: Thanks, John. >> OK, more live coverage of Google Next coming right up. Be right back. (busy electronic music)

(upbeat music) >> Narrator: Live from Silicon Valley, it's theCUBE covering Google Cloud Next 17. >> Hey welcome back everyone. We are here live in Palo Alto for two days of coverage of Google Next 2017 special coverage brought to you by Intel. I want to thank Intel for sponsoring our editorial coverage of Google Next. It's a cloud service provider. This is a huge opportunity, cloud is changing the digital transformation and I want to thank Intel for that. Breaking down the coverage going into the realities of cloud, our next guest is Pedram Abrari, who's with Pramata, Chief Technology Officer, you guys do a customer digitization of cloud platform based in Silicon Valley. You're a veteran former entrepreneur, welcome to theCUBE coverage of Google Next. >> Thank you John. >> First tell us about what you guys do as a company. I know you guys have an interesting story because you're in the heart of the cloud game relative to operationalizing it-- >> Pedram: Yep. >> It's complicated in being an enterprise cloud solution. There's nuances there. There's some tripwires. There's some landmines, whatever you want to call that. >> Pedram: Mm-hmm. >> What do you guys do, let's do a quick background. >> What Pramata does is we are a B to B platform for large enterprises, such as NCR, HP, CenturyLink who have hundreds of, in some cases thousands of customer contracts and don't have a handle on their contracts. We digitize those contracts and those customer relationships and we layer intelligence on top to allow key decision makers in those businesses to have a single unified and up-to-date view of this data of each customer relationship at any point in time. Layering on top, building data and CRM data and MDM data. >> What's interesting why I liked that you're here is that it really hits the theme of Google Next which is data, datasets, machine learning, AI are pointing to a new model of how software's changing applications, right. >> Pedram: Mm-hmm. >> So you guys are at the middle of this digital transformation-- >> Pedram: Yeah, yeah. >> It's a whole new paradise, not like the classic, you know, linear thinking of supply chain or CRM kind of thinking. You guys are truly data driven and this teases out the complexities-- >> Pedram: Mm-hmm. >> What's your thoughts because again Google is clearly going down to the enterprise level. >> Pedram: Mm-hmm. >> As is Amazon, little bit ahead of them in terms of progress, but this is the trick everyone is doing in the digital transformation. I want to leverage my data, I want to move to a cost effective infrastructure. >> Pedram: Mm-hmm. >> Or it could be a startup saying, hey I want to get into the game and I want to innovate on a feature, and then there they are. They could be the next Snapchat out there watching. This is important, but it's also hard. What's your thoughts on the landscape of this opportunity? >> Well, cloud computing definitely changed the game for high tech startups, in a big way. When infrastructure as a service first rolled out with AWS, that's kind of the tip of the spear. The virtualization of hardware was a big game changer because as a startup to even get in the game, you had to have millions of dollars worth of investment in just hardware and software. In every two or three years, you had to renew all your hardware and software because they were out of date. So before you could even focus on your core competency, there was all these layers of investment and all the talent that you had to attract, just to deal with getting a cloud software up and running. With cloud computing, particularly with infrastructure as service, it changed that game. Virtualized hardware, and it allowed a lot more companies to have access and the ability to get into the game that couldn't previously, but the story doesn't end there, that's just the beginning of the story. Because to get a class software really up and running, you still have to have a team, traditionally it used to be IT teams, but the evolution has come now we have devops teams for good reason, who have to build a lot of initial plumbing on top of the infrastructure as a service until your cloud can be up and running in a scalable, cost effective, elastic fashion if you want. Yeah. >> Tell about the scale piece, because what is interesting is you have a lot of experience in scaling with the cloud. >> Mm-hmm. >> This is the main thing that people are leveraging with the cloud is that I can scale up pretty quickly. >> Mm-hmm. >> Scale up and scale out and then the complexity is the digitization piece, which is more specific to the enterprise. What are some of the challenges that you see with scale, because this is something that needs to be factored in on the design side. >> Mm-hmm. >> So digitize, oh yeah I want to digitize my entire company. Okay, sounds easy-- (laughter) But the scale piece is important because you now have scalable stuff. >> Right. >> How does it all work? >> Cloud software, early on in the cloud days, you know we had IT teams and we had developers who were really enterprise developers and they looked at the world with those glasses on. Very shortly thereafter, as soon as the first cloud software was up and running, people realized, what a minute, the old way of building software just doesn't work anymore, you have to rethink, this is where devops developed where it was a culture of developers and operations all working in concert, always designing software for scale in the cloud. It's a very different paradigm. Things such as transition from stateful services to stateless services to microservices, it all continued to turn services into things that could run and spun up and run across a large cluster of servers, as opposed to something that only scales vertically on a single box. If you think you have a service that you can throw on the cloud and you can magically get the benefits of that, and costs get lowered, I'm here to tell you that if you don't play your cards right, it blows up in your face very quickly. >> Give an example, cuz this is the trade-off, back to the trade-off conversation, right. >> Yeah, yeah. An example is if you have software that doesn't scale horizontally, that is not elastic, it doesn't scale and it only scales vertically, and you throw it in the cloud, and the more load gets on that software and that service, the only way to go is to keep getting bigger and bigger boxes that are available on a AWS or on Google or on Acer. The larger the box, the more expensive it becomes. The whole premise of cloud computing was commodity boxes (laughs) and things that could scale this way, and you really are basically going back to the same old problem you had on the enterprise side. Having to get bigger and bigger and bigger boxes. That can really blow up in your face in terms of the cost, that people would be shocked the kinds of bills that they can receive from some of the cloud vendors if they don't manage and contain their problem effectively. >> We're with Pedram Abrari who's the CTO of Pramata. They bring up an interesting point, I want to jump in and just kind of double down on that because the classic IT enterprise conversation in the heyday of enterprises it was developing was the sharp thin, the tip of the iceberg. What you don't see under the water, is the hidden costs, right. >> Pedram: It was massive. (laughs) >> The total cost of ownership has always been a big issue and if you look at things like OpenStack, for instance, great on paper, great philosophy, but-- >> Pedram: Mm-hmm. >> The total cost of ownership has really kind of crippled that from being, other than anything more than infrastructure as a service. So there's trade-offs for an enterprise-- >> Pedram: Mm-hmm. >> When the look at the total cost of ownership saying, I'm just going to throw in the cloud and run multicloud and everything's going to be managed perfectly and there's manageability and the security, I'm all set. No. >> Pedram: No. >> Or is that, I mean-- >> So first of all-- >> John: Why is that so important, because there's some trade-offs specifically here. >> There is ... First of all multicloud, cloud neutrality in theory sounds great, but it comes at a very expensive price. If I'm running on Google, or if I'm running on AWS and if I commit to running only on AWS or on Google or Acer, for that matter, I have the opportunity to leverage some of the managed services that are offered up by the vendor and they have the world's foremost experts at running some of theses services. Let's say your software requires a relational database, if you're going to be cloud neutral, you have to host that database, deal with backup recovery, scalability, fail overs, all of that overhead associated with that, which means you have to hire world's foremost experts at doing these things and you have to attract them, you have to pay them and on top of everything else that's associated with having to anticipate the heaviest load of your system, and always planning for that, if you can leverage the Google Cloud SQL, or if you can leverage AWS RDS-- >> Google only runs MySQL, they don't run anything else. >> That's true, that's true, but AWS does. >> Yeah. >> They have a plethora of different databases. >> It was good to go to AWS in that case. >> Well, if you're starting from ground up, and you're a startup, committing to MySQL is just fine. (laughs) >> John: Yeah. >> If you already-- >> Which is why Google's doing really well in the cloud narrative piece. >> Exactly, exactly. >> Enterprises who have other databases, other relational databases. >> And so if you're already sitting on top of a legacy that you have to support, then going to AWS might be easier. But AWS has its own complexities because it is a massive service, a massive ... Has a lot of APIs, it has a lot of complexities so you have to deal with all of that complexity. Even the billing side of AWS has a whole economy all to itself, there's all these vendors that exist just for managing AWS cost, so having a model like Google, >> John: Yeah. >> which is just a lot more simplified and kind of reduces the explosion of complexity that you potentially deal with on AWS side, may work just well for a lot of startups. >> This is really an important point I think, because this is something that's not being covered much in the press or in the analysts community is that everyone certainly talks about lock-in, oh the roach motel, you can check-in, but you can't check out. Now I've heard that-- >> Pedram: Mm-hmm. >> Been called to Amazon and everyone else, the lock-in, but if you at what you're saying is interesting. You say lock-in actually in contrast to say the opportunity of leveraging, say manageability-- >> Pedram: Mm-hmm. >> And security. >> Pedram: Mm-hmm. >> It not a big deal given the fact that you don't want to build those services. >> Pedram: Exactly. >> If you go hey, I'm fully neutral cloud where I'm going to have multiple workloads, then it's on me and IT to build the software fabric for manageability. >> That's exactly right. >> So the risk is if it's not available, (laughs) if there's no software that does that, that's the risk. >> It is the risk. As a serial entrepreneur who has done numerous startups, one of the key aspects of doing a startup is focusing on your core IP and your core differentiation. Your core IP is not how to run a cloud software, it's other peoples IP and you should leverage that. Platform as a service is a way to leverage that and you give up some control, you fall into a platform as a service, and for that matter if you want to fall into a platform as a service, you can fall into a platform as a service on AWS or you can do it with the Google app engine or you can do it on Acer, but you can basically see which one fits your needs and your profile and your software best and just give up control for productivity and for cost reductions and also you gain from all the expertise and best practices they have developed around security and audit and all the ramifications around. Basically making sure that you take care of your customer data safely and securely, you don't expose them to risk. >> This is interesting because it makes the cloud argument more about the beauty's in the eye of the beholder or whatever the enterprise thinks is best. >> Mm-hmm. >> If it's cloud native, that might be Google, but then it's an opportunity for the vendors to differentiate-- >> Mm-hmm. >> On some certain services. So I get that, but the question I want to ask you is for the folks watching who are in the enterprise trying to squint through all the complexities, hey I'm on a digital transformation, I don't know what's what, I'm seeing Google say this, Amazon says this, this is apples to oranges, what's in for me, I have my own enterprise. So that's an interesting conversation, so the question is what would you advise enterprises to evaluate when to go with Google, when to go with AWS, when to go with Oracle or IBM. There's a variety of different choices. When do you evaluate that trade-off factor of with the leverage, how do you advice that? >> It's a tough nut to crack. Before you even move to the cloud, you can still do some soul searching internally and look at the good, bad or ugly of your own software. What are strengths? What are scalability issues? Can it scale horizontally? Can it only scale vertically? With that in mind, then you go and evaluate the options that are available out there. If you're never going to leverage any of the native cloud services that are offered out by AWS or Google or Acer, and you only wanted ... Let's say you want to be completely doctorize and containerize and you really want to kind of follow that model, maybe these services don't matter to you and you're willing to take on all the other responsibility and manage all the services. So you really have to ... I would strongly advise that you gain and go to cloud experts, who have done it before time and again, and seek their incites and advice and not jump into the deep end of the pool thinking that oh, it's just cloud, anybody can do it. >> Question for you on, say Google, for instance, say that you and I were called into that Diane Greene's office and they said, "Hey Pedram and John I want you "to advise me. We really have good dev developer empathy," we talk about this in our last segment, developer empathy-- >> Pedram: Mm-hmm. >> "But we don't have a lot of empathy for enterprises. "You guys are experts in the enterprise, what should we do "to empathize with the enterprise better?" What would we advise them? What would we go in and say to her and her team? >> I would say start with the pain points of the enterprise, right. Before the enterprise can even consider moving to the cloud, their biggest and primary concern is security. They have to make sure that they can trust you and of course that has really over the years has been chipped away at, the old obstacles are following one at a time. But really being able to speak their language and get them to be comfortable that they're following best practices in their very solid and secure environment. On top of that, help them with all of their audit needs. Everybody wants to get certified. (laughs) And a lot of that when you actually move to the cloud, if you have a Google or AWS on a checkbox, a lot of those questions that auditors ask, go right out the window. So that is a helpful factor. But helping them along those lines and also cost factor. A lot of people don't know what it's going to cost. >> Yeah. >> Cost calculators and all that stuff are good and great, but they only go so far cuz there's a lot of hidden costs that you don't associate with it. A lot of it can come in the form of talented expertise. A lot of it comes in the form of just paying for services. >> John: SLA too. >> SLA, yet. >> SLA is a huge one. I would say to Diane, "Look at being a price leader, "and certainly you have great pricing, "but I don't think the enterprise is price sensitive, "I think they're SLA sensitive." >> Pedram: They are, right. >> That's kind of their weak spot, a little bit here. >> It is, and of course now Google has a little bit of advantage to bring to the table with what happened to AWS last week-- >> John: Yes. >> But again if you take the big picture of the SLAs that are offered up by any of these cloud platforms, compared to what you could do internally hosting your own services, with your own IT team, I'll bet you they'll beat your IT team every day of the week, twice on Sunday-- >> Yeah. >> In terms of SLA. So I wouldn't be afraid of moving to the cloud and again hiccups happen to everybody an anybody, but-- >> Pedram one of the things that we say clearly this year at Adibus, we've done all the live broadcasts at Adibus for years. But this year it what was clear is that the speed of which Amazon has been innovating services, and Google needs to match this cadence as well on their side for their architecture, is one of those cases where they're doing it faster than the IT guys can do it. So it's the same argument that open source is a great value because open source is moving the needle faster-- >> Pedram: Mm-hmm. >> Than homegrown teams could do on IT, so that's an opportunity to leverage that to focus on the core competency of the Internet. >> Absolutely. And then one of the other things that people overlook, when you leverage an AWS RDS service, what you gain is not just what they have at the time, what you also gain all the improvements that happen over time, on their behalf, on their side, where they keep increasing their throughput and performance and scalability. AWS just came out with the Aurora Service, which is effectively like a ... It acts like an elastic relational database, which is a concept unheard of. Imagine trying to replicate that internally. I mean it is things that the level of expertise they bring to bear, and the level of resources that they bring to bear to really solve these complex problems, far outweigh anything that we would have in our company to be able to address those same challenges. >> Pedram, great to breakdown some of these trade-offs, this is the nuances of the enterprise, being empathetic is to really understand. The buy to build kind of concept versus when do you want to leverage your core competency, when do you want to shift that-- >> Pedram: Mm-hmm. >> Capability to a cloud or certain clouds certainly the criteria. Really appreciate you taking the time. Take a minute to talk about your company. >> Pedram: Mm-hmm. >> What are you guys doing, cuz you guys are in the middle of the digitization-- (laughter) >> Physical transformation, and it's not that easy. >> No. >> What are you guys doing for customers and what's your competitive advantage? >> So what we do is, we have a lot of large enterprise customers, who typically have hundreds of thousands of customer contracts, that nobody ever looks at or reads or your only reading an army of lawyers to really comprehend and understand, and this is an obstacle to making good business decisions to grow your company. Large enterprises, much like smaller enterprises, need a up-to-date view of their customer relationships, which starts with the customer contract, which is where we come in. We digitize the customer contract and we extract key information out of it, the information, not all the legalese and noise, but really-- >> John: But the core data. >> The core data, the core key decision making data that you need to have to interface with a customer. We extract that out and make it available to you in an environment that is accessible by anybody, not just lawyers. On top of that we bring in data from across your enterprise about that customer, whether it's your billing systems, your CRM systems, or MDM systems, you name it, we can bring all of that data, layer it on top of your contract data, and on top of that, introduce additional layers of intelligence where it tells you what is the most up-to-date aspect of your customer relationship information, and that allows you to make real-time important decisions that over time your finance teams and sales ops teams can really maximize the relationship. >> This is classic data-driven, where you're taking core data about the customer and contract, they pay for stuff they haven't ... Key data in their system of record, if you will. >> Pedram: Mm-hmm. >> And kind of sharing it into other systems, sounds like it's perfectly poised for machine learning and AI, is that where-- >> That is our secret. That is our secret sauce. Trying to ingest and digitize hundreds of thousands of contracts, cannot just be done manually (laughs) clearly. >> It's not just the sales thing, but renewals, more of operationally-- >> Renewals is a big issue. There's massive operational impact, there's upsell impact, there's a lot of ... Our customers gain after adopting us, millions of dollars in lost revenue potential where they are thrilled to tell us about it, like we have found all this money we didn't know we have. It's kind of like having on top a knowledge base of data and big data, everybody knows there's information there that we could use, but to tap it, you got machine learning-- >> Cross-pollinating core data and making it addressable for other apps. >> Precisely right. >> Okay Pedram, thanks so much for coming and sharing your perspective. Breaking down the two days of special coverage of Google Next, this is theCUBE, live at Palo Alto we've got folks on the ground. Our reporters, our analysts will be calling in and of course we've got an exclusive scoop with SAP, we have one of their top executives who runs the Palo Alto entire facility, all the folks who came in from Germany. Had a chance to sit down with SAP, that's coming up shortly. Stay tuned for more coverage live from Palo Alto for Google Next 2017 in our studio. We'll be right back with more after this short break. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live, from Silicon Valley, it's the Cube. Covering Google Cloud Next 17. (ambient music) >> Okay, welcome back everyone. We are here live in Palo Alto for a special two days of coverage of Google Next 2017 events in San Francisco. Sold out, 10,000 plus people. Yeah, really, an amazing turn of events. Amazon Web Services Reinvent had 36,000, Google's nipping at their heels, although different, we're going to break down the differences with Google versus Amazon because they're really two different things and again, this is Cube coverage here in Palo Alto studio, getting reaction. Sponsored by Intel, thanks, Intel, for allowing us to continue the wall-to-wall coverage of the key events in the tech industry. Our next guest is Val Bercovici who's the boardmember of the Cloud Native Compute Foundation, boardmember. >> That's right. >> Welcome back, you were here last week from Mobile World Congress, great to see you. Silicon contributor, what your reaction to the Google keynote, Google news? Not a lot of news, we saw the SAP, that was the biggest news and the rest were showcasing customers, most of the customers were G Suite customers. >> Yeah, exactly. So, I would say my first reaction is bit of a rough keynote, you know, there's definitely not as quit as much polish as Microsoft had in their heyday and of course, Amazon nowadays in the Cloud era. But what's interesting to me is there's the whole battle around empathy right now. So, the next gen developers and the Clouderati talk about user empathy and that means understanding the workflow of the user and getting the user to consume more of your stuff, you know, Snapchat gets user empathy for the millennial generation but anybody else. Facebook as well. So, you see Google, we emphasize, even the Google Twitter account, it emphasizes developer productivity and they have pretty strong developer empathy. But what AWS has, Amazon with AWS is enterprise empathy, right, they really understand how to package themselves and make themselves more consumable right now for a lot of mainstream enterprises, they've been doing this for three, four years at their Reinvent events now. Whereas Google is just catching up. They've got great developer empathy but they're just catching up on enterprise empathy. Those are the main differences I see. >> Yeah, I think that's an important point, Val, great, great point, I think Amazon certainly has, and I wrote this in my blog post this morning, getting a lot of reaction from that, actually, and some things I want to drill down on the network and security side. Some Google folks DMing me we're going to do that. But really, Amazon's lead is way out front on this. But the rest, you know, call 'em IBM, not in any particular, IBM, Oracle, Google, SAP, others, put Salesforces, we're talking Sass and Adobe, they're all in this kind of pack. It's like a NASCAR, you know, pack and you don't know who's going to slimshot around and get out there. But they all have their own unique use cases, they're using their own products to differentiate. We're hearing Google and again, this is a red flag for me because it kind of smells like they're hiding the ball. G Suite, I get the workplace productivity is a Cloud app, but that's not pure Cloud conversations, if you look at the Gartner, Gartner's recent, last report which I had a chance to get a peek at, there's no mention of Sassifications, Google G Suite's not in there, so the way Cloud is strictly defined doesn't even include Sass. >> Yeah. >> If you're going to include Sass, then you got to include Salesforce in that conversation or Adobe or others. >> Exactly. >> So, this is kind of an optical illusion in my mind. And I think that's something that points to Google's lack of traction on customers in the enterprise. >> This is where behind the scenes, Kubernetes, is so important and why I'm involved with the the CNCF. If anything, the first wave of Clouded option particularly by enterprise was centered around the VM model. And you know, infrastructure's a service based on VMs, Amazon, AWS is the king of that. What we're seeing right now is developers in particular that are developing the next generation of apps, most of them are already on our phones and our tablets and our houses and stuff, which is, you know, all these Echo-style devices. That is a container-based architecture that these next gen applications are based on. And so, Kubernetes, in my mind, is really nothing more than Google's attempt to create as much of a container-based ecosystem at scale so that the natural home for container-based apps will be GCP as opposed to AWS. That's the real long term play in why Google's investing so heavily in Kubernetes. >> Is that counterintuitive? Is that a good thing? I mean, it sounds like they're trying to change the goalpost, if you will, to change the game because we had Joe Arnold on, the founder of Swiftstack and you know, ultimately, you know, Clouds are Clouds and inter-Clouding and multi-Cloud is important. Does Kubernete actually help the industry? Or is that more Google specific in your mind? >> I think it will help the industry but the industry itself is moving so rapidly, we're seeing server-less right now and functions of service, and so, I think the landscape is shifting away from what we would think of as either VM or container-based infrastructure service towards having the right abstractions. What I'm seeing is that, really, even the most innovative enterprises today don't really care about their per minute or per hour cost for a cycle of computer, a byte of, you know, network transferred or stored. They care about big table, big quarry, the natural language processing, visual search, and a whole category of these AI based applications that they want to base their own new revenue-generating products and services based on. So, it's abstraction now as a new battlefield. AWS brings that cult of modularity to it, they're delivering a lot of cool services that are very high level Lambda centered based on really cool modularity, whereas Google's doing it, which is very, very elegant abstraction. It's at the developer level, at the technical level, that's what the landscape is at right now. >> Are you happy with Google's approach because I think Google actually doesn't want to be compared to AWS in a way. I mean, from what I can see from the keynote... >> Only by revenue. (laughs) >> Well, certainly, they're going to win that by throwing G Suite on it but, I mean, this is, again, a philosophy game, right? I mean, Andy Jassy is very customer focused, but they don't have their own Sass app, except for Amazon which they don't count on the Cloud. So, their success is all about customers, building on Amazon. Google actually has its own customer and they actually include that in, as does Microsoft with Office 365. >> Yeah, that's the irony, is if we go back to enterprise empathy I think it's Microsoft has that legacy of understanding the enterprise better than all the others. And they're beginning to leverage that, we're definitely seeing, as you're sliding comfortably to a number two position behind AWS, but it really does come back to, you know, are you going to lead with a propeller head lead in technology which Google clearly has, they've got some of the most superior technology, we were rattling off some the speeds and feeds that one of their product managers shared with you this morning. They've had amazing technology, that's unquestioned. But they do have also is this reputation of almost flying in rarefied air when it comes to enterprises. >> What do you mean by that? >> What I mean by that is that most enterprise IT organizations, even the progressive ones, have a hard time relating to Google technology. It's too far out there, it's too advanced, in some cases, they just can't understand it. They've never been trained in college courses on it or even post-grad courses on it. MBA is older than three years old, don't even reference the Cloud. So, there's a lot of training, a lot of knowledge that has to be, you know, conducted on the enterprise side. AWS is packaged, that technology there is the modularity in such a way that's more consumable. Not perfect, but more consumable than any other Cloud render and that's why, with an early head start, they've got the biggest enterprise traction today. >> Yeah, I mean, and I'm really bullish on Google, I love the company, I've been following them since '98, a lot of friends here at Palo Alto, a lot of Googlers living in my neighborhood, they're all around us. Larry Page, seen him around town. Great, great company and very, always been kind of like an academic, speed of academic. Very strong, technically, and that is, clearly, they're playing that card, "We have the technology." So, I would just say that, to counter that argument would be if Google, I'm Google, I'm on the team, the guy in green and you know, lookit, what I want to do is, we want to be the intel for the Cloud. So, the hard and top is we don't really care if people are trained, should be so easy to use, training doesn't matter. So, I mean, that's really more of an arrogant approach, but I don't think Google's being arrogant in the Cloud. I think that ship has sailed, I think Google has kind of been humbled in the sense, in recognizing that the enterprise is hard, they're checking the boxes. They have a partner program. >> Yeah, you're right, I mean, if you take a look at their customers today, you've got Spotify, and Snap, and Evernote, and you know, Pokemon Go and Niantic, all of the leading edge technology companies that have gone mainstream that are, you know, startup oriented Snap, of course. They're on Google Cloud. But that's not enough, you know, the enterprise, I did a seminar just last week promoting Container World with Jim Forge from ADP. The enterprise is not homogeneous, the enterprise is complicated. The L word legacy is all over, what they have to budget and plan for. So, the enterprise is just a lot more complicated than Google will acknowledge right now. And I believe if they were to humanize some of their advanced technology and package it and price it in such a way that AWS, you know, where they're seeing success, they'll accelerate their inevitable sort of leap to being one of those top three contenders. >> So, I'm just reading some of my, I'm putting together because for the Google folks, I'm going to interview them, just prepping for this, but just networking alone, isolating Cloud resources. That's hard, right? So, you know, virtual network in the Cloud, Google's got the virtual network. You get multiple IP addresses, for instance, ability to move network interfaces and IPs between instances, and AS networking support. Network traffic logging, virtual network peering, manage NAT gateways, subnet level filtering, IP V stick support, use any CIDR including RC 1918. Multiple network interface instances, I mean, this is complicated! (laughs) It's not easy so, you know, I think the strategy's going to be interesting to see how, does Google go into the point to point solution set, or they just say, "This is what we got, take it or leave it," and try to change the game? >> That's where they've been up until now and I don't think it's working because they have very formidable competitors that are not standing still. So, I think they're going to have to keep upping their game, again, not in terms of better technology but in terms of better packaging, better accessibility to their technology. Better trust, if you will, overseas. Cloud is a global game, it's not US only. And trust is so critical, there's a lot of skepticism in Europe today with the latest Wikileaks announcements, or Asia Today around. Any American based Cloud provider truly being able to isolate and protect my citizen's data, you know, within my borders. >> I think Google Cloud has one fatal flaw that I, looking at all the data, is that and the analysis that we've been looking at with Bookie Bontine and our research is that there's one thing that jumps out at me. I mean, the rest are all, I look at as, you know, Google's got such great technologies, they can move up fast, they can scale up to code. But the one thing that's interesting is their architecture, the way they handle their architecture is they can't let customers dictate data where data's stored. That is a huge issue for them. And if, to your point, if a user in Germany is using an app and it's got to stay in Germany. >> This is back to the empathy disconnect, right? As an abstraction layer for a developer, what I want is exactly what Google offers. I don't want to care as a developer where the bits and bytes are stored, I want this consistent, uniform API, I want to do cool stuff with the data. The operation side, particularly within legal parameters, regulatory parameters, you know, all sorts of other costs and quality assurance parameters, they really care about where that data is stored, and that's where having more enterprise empathy, and their thinking, and their offerings, and their pricing, and their packaging will leapfrog Google to where they want to be today. >> Val Bercovici, great analysis, I mean, I would totally agree just to lock that in, their developer empathy is so strong. And their operational one needs to be, they got a blind spot there where they got to work on that. And this is interesting because people who don't know Google are very strong operations, it's not like they don't have any ops chops. (Val laughs) They're absolutely in the five nines, they are awesome operations. But they've been operations for themselves. >> Exactly. >> So, that's the distinction you're getting at, right? >> Absolutely. >> Okay, so the next question I got to ask you is back to the developer empathy, 'cause I think it's a really big opportunity for Google. So, pointing out the fatal flaw in my opinions in the data locality thing. But I think the opportunity for Google to change the game, using the developer community opportunity because you mentioned the Kubernetes. There is a huge, open source, I don't want to say transformation but an evolution to the next generation, you're starting to see machine learning and AI start to tease out the leverage of not just data now. Data's become so massive now, you have data sets. That can be addressable and be treated like software programs. So, data as code becomes a new dynamic with AI. So, with AI, with open source, you're seeing a lot of activity, CNCF, the Cloud Native Compute Foundation, folks should check that out, that's an amazing group, analytics foundation. This is an awesome opportunity for Google to use Kubernetes as saying, "Hey, we will make orchestration of application workloads." >> Absolutely. >> This is something, Amazon's been great with open source, but they don't get a lot of love... >> Amazon has a blind spot on containers, let's not, you know, let's not call, you know, let's call it the speed of speed, let's not, you know, beat around the bush, they do have a blind spot around containers. It is something they strategically have to get a hold of, they've got some really interesting proprietary offerings. But it's not a natural home for a Docker workflow, it's not a natural home for a Kubernetes workflow yet. And it's something they have to work on and AI as a use case could not be more pertinent to business today because it's that quote, you know, "The future is here "but unevenly distributed." That's exactly where AI is today, the businesses that are figuring it out are really leaping ahead of their competitors. >> We're getting some great tweets, my phone's blowing up. Val, you've got great commentary. I want to bring up, so, I've been kind of over the top with the comment that I've been making. It's maybe mischaracterized but I'll say it again. There seems to be a Cold War going on inside the communities between, as Kubernetes have done, we've seen doc, or we've seen Docker Containers be so successful in this service list, server list vision, which is absolutely where Cloud Native needs to be in that notion of, you know, separating out fiscal gear and addressability, making it completely transparent, full dev ops, if you will. To who's going to own the orchestration and where does it sit on the stack? And with Kubernetes, to me, is interesting is that it tugs at some sacred cows in the container world. >> Yes. >> And it opens up the notion of multi-Cloud. I mean, assume latency can be solved at some point, but... >> It's actually core religion, what impressed me about he whole Kubernetes community, and community is its greatest strength, by the way, is the fact that they had a religion on multi-Cloud from day one. It wasn't about, "We'll add it later "'cause we know it's important," it's about portability and you know, even Docker lent that to the community. Portability is just a number one priority and now portability, at scale, across multiple Clouds, dynamically orchestrated, not through, you know, potential for human error, human interventions we saw last week. That the secret sauce there to stay. >> I think not only is, a Cold War is a negative connotation, but I think it's an opportunity to be sitting in the sun, if you will, on the beach with a pina colada because if you take the Kubernetes trend that's got developer empathy with portability, that speaks to what developers want, I want to have the ability to write code, ship it up to the network, and have it integrate in nicely and seamlessly so, you know, things can self-work and do all that. And AI can help in all those things. Connecting with operational challenges. So, what is, in your mind, that intersection? Because let's just say that Kubernetes is going to develop a nice trajectory which it has now and continues to be a nice way to galvanize a community around orchestration, portability, etc. Where does that intersect with some of the challenges and needs for operational effectiveness and efficiency? >> So, the dirtiest secret in that world is data gravity, rigtht? It's all well and fine to have workload portability across, you know, multiple instances and a cluster across multiple Clouds, so to speak. But data has weight, data has mass and gravity, and it's very hard to move particularly at scale. Kubernetes only in the last few releases with a furious pace in evolution, one four, one five, has a notion of provisioning persistent volumes, this thing they affectionately called pet sets that are not a stateful sets, I love that name. >> Cattle. >> Exactly. (laughs) So, Google is waking up and Kubernetes, I should say, in particular is waking up to the whole notion of managing data is really that last mile problem of Cloud portability and operational maturity. And planning around data gravity and overcoming where you can data gravity through meta-operational procedures is where this thing is going to really take off. >> I think that's where Google, I like Google's messaging, I like their posture on machine learning AI, I think that's key. But Amazon has been doing AI, they've got machine learning as a service, they've had Kineses for a while. In fact, Redshift and Kineses were their fastest growing services before Aurora became the big thing that they had. So, I think, you know, they're interested in the jets, with the trucks, and the snowmobile stuff. So I think certainly, Amazon's been doing that data and then rolling in as some sort of AI. >> And they've been humanizing it better, right? I can relate to some of Amazon's offering and sometimes I have it in the house. You know, so, the packaging and just the consumerability of these Amazon services today is ahead of where Google is and Google arguably has the superior technology. >> Yeah, and I think, you know, I was laying out my analysis of Google versus Amazon but I think it's not fair to try to compare them too much because Google is just making their opening moves on the chessboard. Because they had Diane Green, got to give her credit, she's really starting behind. And that's been talked about but they are serious, they're going to get there. The question is what does an enterprise need to do? So, your advice to enterprise would be what? Stick with the use cases that are either Google specific apps or Cloud Native, where do you go, how do you...? >> I would say to remember the lock-in days of the Linux vendors and even Microsoft in their heyday and definitely think multi-Cloud, you know, Cloud first is fine. But think, we need data first in a Cloud before I think a particular Cloud first. Always keep your options open, seek the highest levels of abstraction, particularly as you're innovating early on and fast failing in the Cloud. Don't go low right away, go low later on when you're operationalizing and scaled and looking to squeeze efficiencies out of a new product or service. >> Don't go low, you mean don't go low in the stack? >> Don't go low in the stack, exactly. Start very high in the stack. >> What would be an example? >> Lambda, you know, taking advantage of, if we bring in Kineses, IOT workflows, all sorts of sensor data coming in from the Edge. Don't code that for efficiency day one and switch to Kafka or something else that's more sophisticated, but keep it really high level as events triggering off, whether it's the IOTICK in the sensor inputs or whether it's S3 events, Dynamo, DB events. Write your functions that are very, very high level. >> Yeah. >> Get the workflows right. Pay a bit more money up front, pay premium for the fast... >> Well, there's also Bootstraps and the Training Channel Digimation, so, with Google, pick some things that are known out there. But you mentioned IOT and one of the things I was kind of disappointed in the keynote today, there wasn't much talk about IOT. You're not seeing IOT in the Google story. >> That may come up in tomorrow's keynote, it may come up tomorrow in a more technical context. But you're right, it's an area both Agar and AWS have a monster of a lead right now, as they've had really good SDKs out there to be able to create workflows without even being an expert in some of the devices that you know, you might own and maintain. >> Google's got some differentiation, they've got something, I'll highlight one that I like that I think is really compelling. Tensor flow. Tensor flow as got a lot of great traction and then Intel is writing chips with their Skylake product that actually runs much faster silicon... >> What was that, Nvidia? You know, it's a GPU game as much as a CPU game when it comes to machine learning. And it's just... >> What does that mean for you? I mean, that's exciting, you smile on that, I get geeked out on that because if you think about that, if you can have a relationship between the silicon and software, what does it mean from an impact standpoint? Do you think that's going to be a good accelerant for the game? >> Massive accelerant, you know, and this is where we get into sort of more rarefied air with Elon Musk's quote around the fact we'll need universal income for society. There a lot of static tasks that are automated today. There's more and more dynamic tasks now that these AI algorithms, through machine learning, can be trained to conduct in a very intelligent manner. So, more and more task based work all over the world, including in a robotic context but also call centers, stock brokerage, for example, it's been demonstrated that AI ML algorithms are superior to humans nine times out of ten in terms of recommending stocks. So, there's a lot of white collars, while it's blue collared work that just going to be augmented and then eliminated with these technologies and the fact that you have major players, economies at scales such as Intel and Nvidia and so forth accelerating that, making it affordable, fast, low power in certain edge context. That's, you know, really good for the industry. >> So, day one of two days of coverage here with Google, just thoughts real quick on what Google needs to do to really conquer the enterprise and really be credible, viable, successful, number two, or leader in the enterprise? >> I'm a big fan, you know, I've had personal experiences with fast following as opposed to leading and innovating sometimes in terms of getting market traction. I think they should unabashedly, unashamedly examine what Microsoft or what Amazon are doing right in the Cloud. Because you know, simple things like conducting a bit more of a smooth keynote, Google doesn't seem to have mastered it yet, right now in the Cloud space. And it's not rocket science, but shamelessly copying what works, shamelessly copying the packaging and the humanization that some of the advanced technologies that Amazon and Microsoft have done in particular. And then applying their technical superiority, you know, their uptime availability advantages, their faster networks, their strong consistency which is a big deal for developers across their regions. Emphasizing their strengths after they package and make their technology more consumable. As opposed to leading where the tech specs. >> And you have a lot of experience in the enterprise, table stakes out there that are pretty obvious that they need to check the boxes on, and would be what? >> A very good question, I would say, first and foremost, you really have to focus on more, you know, transparent pricing. Think something that is a whole black art in terms of optimizing your AWS usage in this industry that's formed around that. I think Google has and they enact blogs advertising a lot of advantages they have in the granularity, in the efficiency of their auto scaling up and down. But businesses don't really map that, they don't think of that first even though it can save them millions of dollars as they do move to Cloud first approaches. >> Yeah and I think Google got to shake that academic arrogance, in a way, that they've had a reputation for. Not that that's a bad thing, I'll give you an example, I love the fact that Google leads a lot of price performance on many levels in the Cloud, yet their SLAs are kind of wonky here and there. So, it's like, okay, enterprises like SLAs. You got to nail that. And then maybe keep their price a little high here, it can make more money, but... So, you were saying, is that enterprise might not get the fact that it's such a good deal. >> It's like enterprise sales 101, you talk about, you know, the operational benefits but you also talk about financial benefits and business benefits. Catching into those three contexts in terms of their technical superiority would do them a world of good as they seek more and more enterprise opportunities. >> Alright, Val Bercovici, CTO, also CTO, and also on the board of the Cloud Native Compute Foundation known as CNCF, a newly formed organization, part of the Linux Foundation. Really looking at the orchestration, looking at the containers, looking at Kubernetes, looking at a whole new world of app enablement. Val, thanks for the company, great to see you. Turning out to be guest contributor here on the Cube studio, appreciate his time. This is the Cube, two days of live coverage. Hope to have someone from Google on the security and network side coming in and calling in, we're going to try to set that up, a lot of conversations happening around that. Lot of great stuff happening at Google Next, we've got all the wall-to-wall coverage, reporters on the ground in San Francisco as well as analysts. And of course, in studio reaction here in Palo Alto. We'll be right back. (ambient music)