>> Announcer: From theCUBE studios (upbeat music) in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE Conversation. >> Everyone, welcome to this CUBE Conversation. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE here in Palo Alto, California during the COVID-19 current situation. We're here with a skeleton crew, getting the content out there. Wanted to bring a special remote interview to you with two great remote guests, talking about how the digital events, and how the digital interactions are evolving, and how our community's reacting. Got two great guests, John Kreisa, a senior vice president of marketing at Docker, and Jenny Burcio, who's the advocate, community and DockerCon content lead at Docker. Jenny and John, thanks for joining me today. >> Great to be here, thank you. >> Thanks, John. >> So you guys, Docker has been one of the most popular container platforms from the beginning of this cloud native movement. You have over millions and millions of developers out there. DockerCon is going virtual. It's an event that you guys had physically over the years, now it's going to go virtual, but this is not new to the developer world. I want to get into that in the conversation, but first I want to give you guys a chance to take a minute and explain, John Kreisa, if you take a minute to explain the new Docker because there were some changes over the past year. Take a quick minute to explain that. >> Sure thanks John, and hello everybody. So, we went through a change in November of last year to refocus Docker on, I'll say, what was the roots and the foundations of the company, around developers and developer teams. And so, at that time we took the action to split off the enterprise-focused component of the business, sold it to a company called Mirantis. Since that time, we've been working very diligently around refocusing Docker on developer tooling, developer chains, and really developer productivity, individuals and teams, and that's something that has really revitalized our community, I'll say. The community's been strong and has come with us, and I think is reacting very, very positively to this change. So that's something that we've been going on, we're about five months into that change, and that's been positive so far. >> So it's a startup, kind of a reset, kind of a start up again, get the startup roots, but with a huge community, millions of developers. >> Massive community, that's right. Millions of developers, more than two million Docker desktop downloads installed on developer machines. Huge community around Docker Hub, using that as their essential collaboration point for developers for developing applications as they move those applications to the web, and to the cloud infrastructure. So, really just a tremendous community. It is a refocused company, but one that really is starting with a phenomenal foundation, as you mentioned, in terms of the community that we have with us. >> And it's a second chance to ride the big wave. Certainly the waves are bigger now. I don't want to make this a real commercial about Docker, or DockerCon. We're going to do a special video promo reel on that event, which we're kind of co-producing with you guys on a new collaboration. So look for, the folks watching, look for a nice promo intro video on what's going to happen at DockerCon, which will be a whole nother track. The reason why I wanted to bring you guys here, is this highlights to me the core impact of part of this crisis and current situation around Coronavirus, COVID-19, people are working at home more, so the mainstream world is seeing what it's like to work at home. People are understanding some of the pressures and the dynamics around how people communicate and work. And we, Jenny, were talking about this from a community standpoint. Open source community, they've been working at home (laughs) for a long time. It's been one of the most biggest success stories that hasn't been written is the success of how software developers have been productive in working in these groups on big projects with people from around the world. This isn't new. I'd love to get your perspective on how, what's your reaction to everyone else's reaction of the whole work-at-home digital world? >> Yeah, so, I mean, if you look at what open source, and what engineers have done, generally. You know, innovation doesn't happen within an office from nine to five, in whatever time zone you're in. And so, there's been, with Docker, GitHub, Zoom, a number of tools in place, and not just the ones I named, that really allow anyone, anywhere in the world, to contribute their ideas, and respond real time. We're not going through a huge change, even within Docker or in tech, of having to work from home. Maybe kids in the calls is a little bit different, but for many of us, we're lucky to continue marching on during this time. >> What do you guys see as best practices of the work-at-home crisis, or some of the collaboration techniques? I mean, everyone knows the online troll. I mean, trolls just get booted out, or moderated out of groups. Is there a certain best practice that you could share with folks that aren't, that are learning this for the first time? >> Sure, so, highly recommend having a code of conduct, and living by that code of conduct. So making it very visible to whomever you're working with, both internally at the company, and in open source, externally to anyone wanting to contribute to a project. Giving grace in this time. As we all know there's stress much beyond what's happening in our day-to-day work for all the community right now. And writing things as much as possible. And I think, particularly as in the last couple of weeks, there's been a real need to keep the written record of decisions and conversations, and make it out there and open so anyone can kind of participate. And even to that end, Docker announced a public roadmap earlier this month. So now our entire community can jump on and vote for what they want to see, or provide input and ideas on what we would do next. >> John, I want to ask you around DockerCon coming up, as you guys look to this being a first virtual event, digital event we call it. It's more digital than virtual, but I guess people use the word virtual more now, but it's really digital. Content value has always been king on physical events, but as you move over to virtual events, you just can't make the same people make the same decisions around a breakout room, or what assignment on the calendar and just ship it over to digital is a whole nother roles. New rules, new roles, new dynamics. What's your view on this as a marketer, because you've been on both sides, successful on both sides of the table there? >> Yeah, it is a, in a way, whole new world. I've participated in virtual events in the past, but I think this, the kind of scenario that we're in, puts a whole new impetus on making sure that these events, as much as you can, emulate the in-person experience. I think it's important that the experience you provide to your audience allows them to interact in a number of different ways, above and beyond just simply watching and consuming content, but really allows them to interact with each other that makes it so they can interact with speakers, and other users, and the kinds of people that they want to have. One of the things that we're thinking about, for example, for DockerCon coming up is, how do we emulate that hallway experience, right? The you're walking down the hall, you see somebody, you've been wanting to talk to them, and you have a quick five, or 10, or 20-minute conversation that allows you to have a really good, rich exchange. And that's something that we're working hard, Jenny's working hard on, and that the team's really working hard to provide. So, you know, in this new world, it's how do we bring some of those things that make a great in-person event to the virtual world? And you know, there's fortunately a lot of great tools out there now that do make that possible, you just have to bring them together in the right way. >> Yeah, I know that's something that we've been working on together with you guys, and you know, everyone knows my rant. I think that the format's going to be multiple different types of formats. Chats are different. We were chatting around the different, you know, there's a streamed chat, like on YouTube and Twitch, versus threaded like Reddit. And the hallway grabs, those hallway tracks, it's all about the content of the people, and I want to get your thoughts on, as you guys look to take this asynchronous approach, try to make it synchronous with DockerCon, has it changed some of your thinking around call for papers? I mean, call for papers is almost like an editorial call for a blog post now. So is it changing how you guys are thinking? Is there any insight that you could share as you guys are preparing? Also, you still got to get sponsors. You still got to get some funding. Maybe not huge amounts 'cause the physical space, venue's not there, it's digital now. So, can you guys just share your thinking, your reaction, and any insights you can glean from those two dynamics, the format, the call for papers, and the sponsors, and things of that nature that were proven methods the old way? I mean, just like, call the papers, line up the schedule, there it is, and everyone shows up, but not anymore. What's different? >> So with virtual we really have the opportunity to take the serendipity out of the conversations and the learning that happens at an in-person event. We ran a traditional call for papers. It closed on Friday, we got a number of responses and great, great content that came in. But we're not going to set a speaker up to deliver that live in a session at DockerCon. We're going to pre-record their talks, and have the speaker there live to actually chat with anyone in the audience. So, answer questions, so you'll have, actually, a much greater opportunity to talk to that expert via this virtual event than you would in person, listening to that person speak. I think it really helps first time speakers, and speakers who aren't as confident to get up in a huge room, to have the opportunity to pre-record their talk. So it adds to kind of the diversity and inclusion of the event to bring on some new speakers, for sure. And from a location standpoint, right, now you don't have to give up a whole week to show up somewhere. You can spend that time working on your talk, or whatever else, to kind of share your knowledge. And then the conversation doesn't have to end there. You really, everyone has a way to connect with each other after the fact, which as event marketers, you're always looking for what is that way that you continue the wonderful connections and learning that happens at a live event, beyond. And by having it all happen virtually, you're setting yourself up for success in that area. >> It actually makes it more interesting, because you think about it, you give your talk, and you're there after either giving people high fives, or signing autographs, or getting tomatoes thrown at you. So it's there, right? I mean, it is what's the product, it's the content product. You can engage with the audience after to take that followup, that side bar, maybe the conversations. How about, John, sponsors? I mean, obviously, we have to include sponsors into these events. You know, I've seen some software out there that's pretty old school. It's like, "Oh, here's the digital rendering of our booth." I mean, I personally think that's horrible. I think that's the wrong direction, but the content value of a booth is an event within the event. So there is a way to weave this in. What's your vision of that? How do you see the inclusion of a sponsor, and how is it more intimate and more authentic for them? >> Yeah, I think there's multiple aspects in terms of benefits for a sponsor that we are thinking about. Certainly, as you said, you don't really get that walk into the booth kind of experience, but given that it's all digital, you actually have a much more scalable way to enable sponsors to interact. Firstly, just with how we're promoting the event going into it, and the fact that as they create an asset, it can live in perpetuity, that we can continue to push out there to viewers. And we know that people can come and look at that content afterwards, and that gives yet another opportunity for those sponsors to interact with the people who are consuming it. So everybody has to really think a little bit differently. Both the sponsors of these events, and the hosts, as Docker is doing now, to how and what kinds of interactions. So we're thinking, how do we allow them to capture an interaction? What kinds of calls to action can they include within their digital content? And so everybody's got to think a little bit more digitally and more forward than just, "Hey, let me have people walk "into my booth and pick up some swag." >> You know, it's interesting, we have this conversation that's like an angle on theCUBE all the time, if you think about the end user, the consumer of the content, if you work on the strive for the content value, everybody wins. So, it's like an upstream project in open source. If done well, everyone can reap the benefits. If the shared mission is audience satisfaction around the content, that's contextually relevant to the people at any given time, which is what digital is beautiful for, and you can really create an environment for great activation, and full-on demand, consumer experience advantage, either learning or engaging, or whatever. If you do that, if everyone shares in that mission, that's a success formula. Whether you're a sponsor, or an attendee, or a producer. Do you agree with that? >> And John, we were saying earlier today, this format makes content even more of the king, right? The way that you're going to get attention is by delivering value through that content, and you will probably have a better result of someone stopping by to learn what your offering is, or what knowledge you're bringing to the table, versus what that piece of swag was that they're getting scanned for. >> And there's a role for everybody. I remember when, back in the glory days when I used to develop code, I used to go show my peers my software, they're like, "Yeah, John, that code's just not good." "Well, no, no." But there's a role for me. I wasn't the best coder, but if you have good code, you rise right to the top of the pecking order and people recognize your software in open source, and content's kind of the same way. Everyone can produce content, and some will be better than others, but it doesn't mean that it's just about the content produced, or the curation, there's other roles. Do you guys see some parallels between content development in this kind of way, in a similar fashion as, say, software? I'm just making that metaphor up, it's just riffing out loud. It's a similar construct. Good software wins the day. Good community makes it all work. >> Sure, if your end goal is to educate others and share something that is of value, then it's going to be picked up. And of course creating content takes practice, just like becoming an excellent coder. And so, the stakes aren't as high in a virtual event, especially with pre-recording and some of the other things that you're doing. You know, blog about it. Do a video, do a session, right? Take that content, deliver it different ways, and practice. Particular to DockerCon, both at our live events, and what we will do moving forward, we have an extensive support system for all of our speakers. We assign a number of people internally to review outline, review talk tracks, review slides, and run through actual practices, so that our speakers are very attuned to what our audience is going to be expecting, and feel very comfortable delivering their session, because their success is our success, and ultimately, we're looking for delivering that value to Docker's builders. >> I love the format you mentioned earlier, pre-record, but also there's a new format emerging that's very popular in the Twitch world which is streaming your video game. I still predict that people will be streaming their coding sessions, but you guys have a Docker captain in Brett, who has his own streaming rig and he does the Docker birthday party, recently. I think that's going to be a future format, streaming to an end point, not just for gaming, but for just life, life casting as some people call it. But that's a good format. It fits perfectly into these digital events to host and emcee these sessions. So you can do the record on-demand, record in advance, but there's also a role for streaming, doing the demos, doing the tech talks. >> I mean, think about your audience. They need something both in the moment, and after the fact. And sessions are something that you can watch now, or later, but running through an event with our captain, like Brett Fisher, you want to be there to see what's going on. We did a birthday live stream on Thursday, to celebrate Docker's seventh birthday, and it was amazing because we had so many members of our community come on. They can't go to meet-ups anymore with everything that's happening, but we found a way to all connect, all chat, have a great time, and have this group experience, both fun and learning. And I think we will continue to see that, not just in the conference form, but increasingly now with COVID, people can't get together. People are Zooming with their high school friends to make up for time lost. So I think beyond our industry, the world is going to get very used to connecting virtually. >> I'm going to have a Zoom session tonight, seven o'clock on my Facebook page. It's going to be interesting to see all my high school friends come out, and who knows those words, but there's kind of no moderator button on Facebook. I got to figure out, make sure they're all there. Final question on this whole event thing, and then we can get to this last section around DockerCon. John and Jenny, we both have friends that are in digital, have done events. I'm hearing a lot of pressure is on these digital teams, because the physical events have proven a lot of great business value. Most companies know the economic value of physical event. Again, it's been standardized over decades, but now all of the sudden these new teams, digital teams, are being asked to provide the same business value that these physical events have provided, and these teams aren't equipped for it. So I'm getting a lot of phone calls, and a lot of outreach to theCUBE saying, "We need help." That's the event digital team, and the demand generation marketing teams. They're under a lot of pressure. Are you guys seeing the same thing, and if you are, what advice would you give the people out there, because they're under a massive amount of pressure to deliver? >> Yeah, it's a new world in that regard. And yeah, there are a few platforms out there, but in terms of something for demand marketers that emulates that live event, there's really not. I mean, as you know, we're innovating in multiple ways with you to bring a different kind of experience, but we're also having to think about how do we convert that into some kind of economic value? I mean, for example, DockerCon is a free event this year. A lot of the costs are lower, but it's a free event. That sort of changes that aspect of it. But the other part is, how do we make sure that we connect with that audience, so that we have an ongoing relationship? The way we're looking at it, and I think one recommendation for other companies, is it is a component in a series of engagements. It's a very big one, one that we're investing quite a bit in, in terms of resources, but it's really just a series of, one component of a series of engagements that we have digitally. And there's lot of other ways that you can do it, and fortunately, like Jenny has online meetups, or already has virtual meetups as a component of our virtual experience. This is one that we're sliding in with that, and based on how we're expecting it to go, we'll continue to invest in it in the future. >> Jenny, 365 days in the year, that's digital, it's aways on, right? It's like you got to think holistically, not just have an event, stand it up, tear it down, move to the next one. You activate and you got to keep it always on, you have to keep a pulse. Keep the community rolling. >> Yes, and whether it was a physical event, or a virtual event, that's your goal anyways, is to continue that momentum and keep the community going. We are innovating on that with you for DockerCon, but we're also very much listening to our community, and what their needs are, and trying to figure out how to support their connections with their local community. Docker has a pretty extensive meetup network all around the world, and the rise of virtual really allows us to take the physical limitations of local meetups out, and if they want to run virtual events, then great, how can we support them as well? >> That's awesome. And you know our mission from this area for the folks watching, is to create the best experience possible for audiences, and that means putting the right content in front of them that matters, or having them choose their own content, meet the right people, find if their friends are there, make it a great engaging experience. Because if that happens, everybody wins. So, we're looking forward to DockerCon. If you guys could just give a highlight, quick teaser. John, give a quick teaser on DockerCon, and then Jenny, give the community update of what do you guys expect to have happen? What are you hoping for? What are you nervous about? What's the excitement? What's going on? John, we'll start with you. >> Yeah, thanks John. So just a brief on DockerCon. It's May 28th, of this year. It is a free event that is going to run for, I think it's eight hours during the day. There's multimodal, kind of consumption models. So we're thinking in terms of different channels that people can come and consume. We talked a little bit about the live channel with our captains. There's a live channel with theCUBE, with you guys. There's also the pre-recorded track content. So, there's a way for people to come and interact, come and participate in the chats, and consume content that should be highly educational and focused, and we hope that it'll be a great experience. We're really focused on the content, making sure that it's a great experience for our users and our audience. >> Jenny, how about the community? What's your take, and what's your goal and aspirations? What are you hoping for? >> Hoping for the community to be able to connect, both with the speakers, experts, captains, get their questions answered, have conversations with people on stage, if you will, but also with each other. And just kind of strengthen the bonds of the community, and getting everybody to a better place with developing with Docker and DevOps, and kind of create those pathways beyond May 28th. >> Yeah, it's a DevOps world. We're going to do our best. Hope we put a kick ass program together. It's going to be fun, (laughs) and we hope we have good bandwidth. John went out a couple times there, one time, but we're going to have some good time, and hopefully learn a lot and iterate, and just raise the bar on it and just get it going. So really appreciate collaborating with you guys, and really thank you for your insight on this real, I think, a clear vision on how digital's going to shape how people engage and how events will go, even when they come back. I think this point in time, this current situation's going to emphasize the role of digital isn't just about marketing to people and getting them to come to an event. I think it's going to be a real productive network effect, where there's value created. And I think the silver lining in all this is, this is going to be now the new path for us. So thank you for sharing your cutting edge insights. I appreciate your time, thank you. >> Thanks so much for having us. >> Thank you, John. >> Okay, this is a CUBE Conversation. I'm John Furrier here in the CUBE studios in Palo Alto, with the remote interviews during this time of crisis, of COVID-19 current situation. I'm John Furrier, theCUBE, thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>>welcome to the session. Long live swarm with containers and kubernetes everywhere we have this increasing cloud complexity at the same time that we're facing economic uncertainty and, of course, to navigate this. For most companies, it's a matter of focusing on speed and on shipping and iterating their code faster. Now. For many, Marantz is customers. That means using docker swarm rather than kubernetes to handle container orchestration. We really believe that the best way to increase your speed to production is choice, simplicity and security. So we wanted to bring you a couple of experts to talk about the state of swarm and Docker enterprise and how you can make best use of both of you. So let's get to it. Well, good afternoon or good morning, depending on where you are on and welcome to today's session. Long live swarm. I am Nick Chase. I'm head of content here at Mantis and I would like to introduce you to our two Panelists today eight of Manzini. Why don't you introduce yourself? >>I am a van CNI. I'm a solutions architect here at Moran Tous on work primarily with Docker Enterprise System. I have a long history of working with support team. Um, at what used to be Ah Docker Enterprise, part of Docker Inc. >>Yeah, Okay. Great. And Don Power. >>I, um Yeah, I'm Don Power on the docker. Captain Docker, community leader. Right now I run our Dev Ops team for Citizens Bank out of Nashville, Tennessee, and happy to be here. >>All right, Excellent. So All right, so thank you both for coming. Now, before we say anything else, I want to go ahead and kind of name the elephant in the room. There's been a lot of talk about the >>future. Yeah, that's right. Um, swarm as it stands right now, um, we have, ah, very vested interest in keeping our customers on who want to continue using swarm, functional and keeping swarm a viable alternative or complement to kubernetes. However you see the orchestration war playing out as it were. >>Okay? It's hardly a war at this point, but they do work together, and so that's >>absolutely Yeah, I I definitely consider them more of like, complimentary services, um, using the right tool for the job. Sort of sense. They both have different design goals when they were originally created and set out so I definitely don't see it as a completely one or the other kind of decision and that they could both be used in the same environment and similar clusters to run whatever workload that you have. >>Excellent. And we'll get into the details of all that as we go along. So that's terrific. So I have not really been involved in in the sort of swarm area. So set the stage for us where we kind of start out with all of this. Don I know that you were involved and so guys said, set the stage for us. >>Sure, Um I mean so I've been a heavy user of swarm in my past few roles. Professionally, we've been running containers in production with Swarm for coming up on about four years. Now, Um, in our case, we you know, we looked at what was available at the time, and of course you had. Kubernetes is your biggest contender out there, but like I just mentioned, the one of the things that really led us to swarm is it's design goals were very different than kubernetes. So Kubernetes tries to have an answer for absolutely every scenario where swarm tries to have an answer for, like, the 80% of problems or challenges will say that you might come across 80% of the workloads. Um, I had a better way of saying that, but I think I got my point across >>E Yeah, I think I think you hit the nail on the head. Um, Kubernetes in particular with the way that kubernetes itself is an a P I I believe that kubernetes was, um, you know, written as a toolkit. It wasn't really intended to be used by end users directly. It was really a way to build platforms that run containers. And because it's this really, really extensible ap I you can extend it to manage all sorts of resource is swarm doesn't have that X sensibility aspect, but what it was designed to do, it does very, very well and very easily in a very, very simple sort of way. Um, it's highly opinionated about the way that you should use the product, but it works very effectively. It's very easy to use. It's very low. Um, not low effort, but low. Ah, low barrier to entry. >>Yes. Yes. Absolutely. I was gonna touch on the same thing. It's very easy for someone to come in. Pick up swarm. You know they don't They don't have to know anything about the orchestrator on day one. Most people that are getting into this space are very familiar with Docker. Compose um, and entering from Docker compose into swarm is changing one command that you would run on the command line. >>Yeah, very, very trivial to if you are already used to building docker files using composed, organize your deployment into stacks of related components. It's trivial to turn on swarm mode and then deploy your container set to a cluster. >>Well, excellent. So answer this question for me. Is the swarm of today the same as the swarm of, you know, the original swarm. So, like when swim first started is that the same is what we have now >>it's kind of ah, complicated story with the storm project because it's changed names and forms a few times. Originally in is really somewhere around 2014 in the first version, and it was a component that you really had to configure and set up separately from Docker Ah, the way that it was structured. Ah, you would just have docker installed on a number of servers are machines in your cluster. And then you would organize them into a swarm by bringing your own database and some of the tooling to get those nodes talking to each other and to organize your containers across all of your docker engines. Ah, few years later, the swarm project was retooled and baked into the docker engine. And, um, this is where we sort of get the name change from. So originally it was a feature that we called swarm. Ah. Then the Swarm Kit project was released on Get Hub and baked directly into the engine, where they renamed it as swarm mode. Because now it is a motile option that you just turn on as a button in the docker engine and because it's already there the, um, the tuning knobs that you haven't swarm kit with regard to how what my time outs are and some of these other sort of performance settings there locked there, they're there. It's part of the opinionated set of components that builds up the docker engine is that we bring in the Swarm Kit project with a certain set of defaults and settings. And that is how it operates in today's version of Docker engine. >>Uh, okay for that, that makes sense. That makes sense. So ah, so don, I know you have pretty strong feelings about this topic, but it is swarm still viable in a world that's sort of increasingly dominated by Kubernetes. >>Absolutely. And you were right. I'm very passionate about this topic where I work. We're we're doing almost all of our production work lives on swarm we only have out of Ah, we've got something like 600 different services between three and 4000 containers. At any given point in time. Out of all of those projects, all of those services we've only run into two or three that don't kind of fit into the opinionated model of swarm. So we are running those on KUBERNETES in the same cluster using Moranis is Docker enterprise offering. But, um, no, that's a very, very small percentage of services that we didn't have an answer for in swarm with one. The one case that really gets us just about every time is scaling state full services. But you're gonna have very few staple services in most environments for things like micro service architecture, which is predominantly what we build out. Swarm is perfect. It's simple. It's easy to use you, don't you? Don't end up going for miles of yamma files trying to figure out the one setting that you didn't get exactly right? Um yeah, the other Thea the other big piece of it that way really led us to adopting it so heavily in the beginning is, you know, the overlay network. So your networks don't have to span the whole cluster like they do with kubernetes. So we could we could set up a network isolation between service A and service B, just by use using the built in overlay networks. That was a huge component that, like I said, let us Teoh adopting it so heavily when we first got started. >>Excellent. You look like you're about to say something in a >>Yeah, I think that speaks to the design goals for each piece of software. On the way that I've heard this described before is with regard to the networking piece the ah, the docker networking under the hood, um, feels like it was written by a network engineer. The way that the docker engine overlay networks communicate uses ah, VX lan under the hood, which creates pseudo V lands for your containers. And if two containers aren't on the same Dylan, there's no way they can communicate with each other as opposed to the design of kubernetes networking, which is really left to the C and I implementation but still has the design philosophy of one big, flat sub net where every I p could reach every other i p and you control what is allowed to access, what by policy. So it's more of an application focused Ah design. Whereas in Docker swarm on the overlay networking side, it's really of a network engineering sort of focus. Right? >>Okay, got it. Well, so now how does all this fit in with Docker enterprise now? So I understand there's been some changes on how swarm is handled within Docker Enterprise. Coming with this new release, >>Docker s O swarm Inside Docker Enterprise is represented as both the swarm classic legacy system that we shift way back in 2014 on and then also the swarm mode that is curly used in the docker engine. Um, the Swarm Classic back end gives us legacy support for being able to run unmanaged plane containers onto a cluster. If you were to take Docker ce right now, you would find that you wouldn't be able to just do a very basic docker run against a whole cluster of machines. You can create services using the swarms services, a p I but, um, that that legacy plane container support is something that you have to set up external swarm in order to provide. So right now, the architecture of Docker Enterprise UCP is based on some of that legacy code from about five or six years ago. Okay. Ah, that gives us ability to deploy plane containers for use cases that require it as well as swarm services for those kinds of workloads that might be better served by the built in load balancing and h A and scaling features that swarm provides. >>Okay, so now I know that at one point kubernetes was deployed within Docker Enterprise as you create a swarm cluster and then deploy kubernetes on top of swarm. >>Correct? That is how the current architecture works. >>Okay. All right. And then, um what is what is where we're going with this like, Are we supposed to? Are we going to running Swarm on top of kubernetes? What's >>the the design goals for the future of swarm within branches? Stocker Enterprise are that we will start the employing Ah, like kubernetes cluster features as the base and a swarm kit on top of kubernetes. So it is like you mentioned just a reversal of the roles. I think we're finding that, um, the ability to extend kubernetes a p I to manage resource is is valuable at an infrastructure and platform level in a way that we can't do with swarm. We still want to be able to run swarm workloads. So we're going to keep the swarm kit code the swarm kit orchestration features to run swarm services as a part of the platform to keep the >>got it. Okay, so, uh, if I'm a developer and I want to run swarm, but my company's running kubernetes what? What are my one of my options there? Well, I think >>eight touched on it pretty well already where you know, it depends on your design goals, and you know, one of the other things that's come up a few times is Thea. The level of entry for for swarm is much, much simpler than kubernetes. So I mean, it's it's kind of hard to introduce anything new. So I mean, a company, a company that's got most of their stuff in kubernetes and production is gonna have a hard time maybe looking at a swarm. I mean, this is gonna be, you know, higher, higher up, not the boots on the ground. But, um, you know, the the upper management, that's at some point, you have to pay for all their support, all of it. What we did in our approach. Because there was one team already using kubernetes. We went ahead and stood up a small cluster ah, small swarm cluster and taught the developers how to use it and how to deploy code to it. And they loved it. They thought it was super simple. A time went on, the other teams took notice and saw how fast these guys were getting getting code deployed, getting services up, getting things usable, and they would look over at what the innovation team was doing and say, Hey, I I want to do that to, uh, you know, so there's there's a bunch of different approaches. That's the approach we took and it worked out very well. It looks like you wanted to say something too. >>Yeah, I think that if you if you're if you're having to make this kind of decision, there isn't There isn't a wrong choice. Ah, it's never a swarm of its role and your organization, right? Right. If you're if you're an individual and you're using docker on your workstation on your laptop but your organization wants to standardize on kubernetes there, there are still some two rules that Mike over Ah, pose. And he's manifest if you need to deploy. Coop resource is, um if you are running Docker Enterprise Swarm kit code will still be there. And you can run swarm services as regular swarm workloads on that component. So I I don't want to I don't want people to think that they're going to be like, locked into one or the other orchestration system. Ah, there the way we want to enable developer choice so that however the developer wants to do their work, they can get it done. Um Docker desktop. Ah, ships with that kubernetes distribution bundled in it. So if you're using a Mac or Windows and that's your development, uh, system, you can run docker debt, turn on your mode and run the kubernetes bits. So you have the choices. You have the tools to deploy to either system. >>And that's one of the things that we were super excited about when they introduced Q. Burnett ease into the Docker Enterprise offering. So we were able to run both, so we didn't have to have that. I don't want to call it a battle or argument, but we didn't have to make anybody choose one or the other. We, you know, we gave them both options just by having Docker enterprise so >>excellent. So speaking of having both options, let's just say for developers who need to make a decision while should I go swarm, or should I go kubernetes when it sort of some of the things that they should think about? >>So I think that certain certain elements of, um, certain elements of containers are going to be agnostic right now. So the the the designing a docker file and building a container image, you're going to need to know that skill for either system that you choose to operate on. Ah, the swarm value. Some of the storm advantage comes in that you don't have to know anything beyond that. So you don't have to learn a whole new A p I a whole new domain specific language using Gamel to define your deployment. Um, chances are that if you've been using docker for any length of time, you probably have a whole stack of composed files that are related to things that you've worked on. And, um, again, the barrier to entry to getting those running on swarm is very low. You just turn it on docker stack, deploy, and you're good to go. So I think that if you're trying to make that choice, if you I have a use case that doesn't require you to manage new resource is if you don't need the Extensible researchers part, Ah, swarm is a great great, great viable option. >>Absolutely. Yeah, the the recommendation I've always made to people that are just getting started is start with swarm and then move into kubernetes and going through the the two of them, you're gonna figure out what fits your design principles. What fits your goals. Which one? You know which ones gonna work best for you. And there's no harm in choosing one or the other using both each one of you know, very tailor fit for very various types of use cases. And like I said, kubernetes is great at some things, but for a lot of other stuff, I still want to use swarm and vice versa. So >>on my home lab, for all my personal like services that I run in my, uh, my home network, I used storm, um, for things that I might deploy onto, you know, a bit this environment, a lot of the ones that I'm using right now are mainly tailored for kubernetes eso. I think especially some of the tools that are out there in the open source community as well as in docker Enterprise helped to bridge that gap like there's a translator that can take your compose file, turn it into kubernetes. Yeah, Mel's, um, if if you're trying to decide, like on the business side, should we standardize on former kubernetes? I think like your what? What functionality are you looking at? Out of getting out of your system? If you need things like tight integration into a ah infrastructure vendor such as AWS Azure or VM ware that might have, like plug ins for kubernetes. You're now you're getting into that area where you're managing Resource is of the infrastructure with your orchestration. AP I with kube so things like persistent volumes can talk to your storage device and carve off chunks of storage and assign those two pods if you don't have that need or that use case. Um, you know, KUBERNETES is bringing in a lot of these features that you maybe you're just not taking advantage of. Um, similarly, if you want to take advantage of things like auto scaling to scale horizontally, let's say you have a message queue system and then a number of workers, and you want to start scaling up on your workers. When your CPU hits a certain a metric. That is something that Kubernetes has built right into it. And so, if you want that, I would probably suggest that you look at kubernetes if you don't need that, or if you want to write some of that tooling yourself. Swarm doesn't have an object built into it that will do automatic horizontal scaling based on some kind of metric. So I always consider this decision as a what features are the most I available to you and your business that you need to Yep. >>All right. Excellent. Well, and, ah, fortunately, of course, they're both available on Docker Enterprise. So aren't we lucky? All right, so I am going to wrap this up. I want to thank Don Bauer Docker captain, for coming here and spending some time with us and eight of Manzini. I would like to thank you. I know that the the, uh, circumstances are less than ideal here for your recording today, but we appreciate you joining us. Um and ah, both of you. Thank you very much. And I want to invite all of you. First of all, thank you for joining us. We know your time is valuable and I want to invite you all Teoh to take a look at Docker Enterprise. Ah, follow the link that's on your screen and we'll see you in the next session. Thank you all so much. Thank you. >>Thank you, Nick.

>>from the Cube Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is a cube conversation. >>Hey, welcome back. You're ready, Jeffrey here with the Cuban Apollo Alto studios today, and we're excited. You know, we're slowly coming out of the, uh, out of the summer season. We're getting ready to jump back into the fall. Season, of course, is still covet. Everything is still digital. But you know, what we're seeing is a digital events allow a lot of things that you couldn't do in the physical space. Mainly get a lot more people to attend that don't have to get in airplanes and file over the country. So to preview this brand new inaugural event that's coming up in about a month, we have We have a new guest. He's Dave and Everen. He is the senior vice president of marketing. Former ran tous. Dave. Great to see you. >>Happy to be here today. Thank you. >>Yeah. So tell us about this inaugural event. You know, we did an event with Miranda's years ago. I had to look it up like 2014. 15. Open stack was hot and you guys sponsored a community event in the Bay Area because the open stack events used to move all over the country each and every year. But you guys said, and the top one here in the Bay Area. But now you're launching something brand new based on some new activity that you guys have been up to over the last several months. So let us give us give us the word. >>Yeah, absolutely. So we definitely have been organizing community events in a variety of open source communities over the years. And, you know, we saw really, really good success with with the Cube And are those events in opens tax Silicon Valley days? And, you know, with the way things have gone this year, we've really seen that virtual events could be very successful and provide a new, maybe slightly different form of engagement but still very high level of engagement for our guests and eso. We're excited to put this together and invite the entire cloud native industry to join us and learn about some of the things that Mantis has been working on in recent months. A zwelling as some of the interesting things that are going on in the Cloud native and kubernetes community >>Great. So it's the inaugural event is called Moran Sous launchpad 2020. The Wares and the Winds in September 16th. So we're about a month away and it's all online is their registration. Costars is free for the community. >>It's absolutely free. Eso everyone is welcome to attend You. Just visit Miranda's dot com and you'll see the info for registering for the event and we'd love it. We love to see you there. It's gonna be a fantastic event. We have multiple tracks catering to developers, operators, general industry. Um, you know, participants in the community and eso we'd be happy to see you on join us on and learn about some of the some of the things we're working on. >>That's awesome. So let's back up a step for people that have been paying as close attention as they might have. Right? So you guys purchase, um, assets from Docker at the end of last year, really taken over there, they're they're kind of enterprise solutions, and you've been doing some work with that. Now, what's interesting is we we cover docker con, um, A couple of months ago, a couple three months ago. Time time moves fast. They had a tremendously successful digital event. 70,000 registrants, people coming from all over the world. I think they're physical. Event used to be like four or 5000 people at the peak, maybe 6000 Really tremendous success. But a lot of that success was driven, really by the by the strength of the community. The docker community is so passionate. And what struck me about that event is this is not the first time these people get together. You know, this is not ah, once a year, kind of sharing of information and sharing ideas, but kind of the passion and and the friendships and the sharing of information is so, so good. You know, it's a super or, um, rich development community. You guys have really now taken advantage of that. But you're doing your Miranda's thing. You're bringing your own technology to it and really taking it to more of an enterprise solution. So I wonder if you can kind of walk people through the process of, you know, you have the acquisition late last year. You guys been hard at work. What are we gonna see on September 16. >>Sure, absolutely. And, you know, just thio Give credit Thio Docker for putting on an amazing event with Dr Khan this year. Uh, you know, you mentioned 70,000 registrants. That's an astounding number. And you know, it really is a testament thio. You know, the community that they've built over the years and continue to serve eso We're really, really happy for Docker as they kind of move into, you know, the next the next path in their journey and, you know, focus more on the developer oriented, um, solution and go to market. So, uh, they did a fantastic job with the event. And, you know, I think that they continue toe connect with their community throughout the year on That's part of what drives What drove so many attendees to the event assed faras our our history and progress with with Dr Enterprise eso. As you mentioned mid November last year, we did acquire Doctor Enterprise assets from Docker Inc and, um, right away we noticed tremendous synergy in our product road maps and even in the in the team's eso that came together really, really quickly and we started executing on a Siris of releases. Um that are starting Thio, you know, be introduced into the market. Um, you know, one was introduced in late May and that was the first major release of Dr Enterprise produced exclusively by more antis. And we're going to announce at the launch pad 2020 event. Our next major release of the Doctor Enterprise Technology, which will for the first time include kubernetes related in life cycle management related technology from Mirant is eso. It's a huge milestone for our company. Huge benefit Thio our customers on and the broader user community around Dr Enterprise. We're super excited. Thio provide a lot of a lot of compelling and detailed content around the new technology that will be announcing at the event. >>So I'm looking at the at the website with with the agenda and there's a little teaser here right in the middle of the spaceship Docker Enterprise Container Cloud. So, um, and I glanced into you got a great little layout, five tracks, keynote track D container track operations and I t developer track and keep track. But I did. I went ahead and clicked on the keynote track and I see the big reveal so I love the opening keynote at at 8 a.m. On the 76 on the September 16th is right. Um, I, Enel CEO who have had on many, many times, has the big reveal Docker Enterprise Container Cloud. So without stealing any thunder, uh, can you give us any any little inside inside baseball on on what people should expect or what they can get excited about for that big announcement? >>Sure, absolutely so I definitely don't want to steal any thunder from Adrian, our CEO. But you know, we did include a few Easter eggs, so to speak, in the website on Dr Enterprise. Container Cloud is absolutely the biggest story out of the bunch eso that's visible on the on the rocket ship as you noticed, and in the agenda it will be revealed during Adrian's keynote, and every every word in the product name is important, right? So Dr Enterprise, based on Dr Enterprise Platform Container Cloud and there's the new word in there really is Cloud eso. I think, um, people are going to be surprised at the groundbreaking territory that were forging with with this release along the lines of a cloud experience and what we are going to provide to not only I t operations and the Op Graders and Dev ops for cloud environment, but also for the developers and the experience that we could bring to developers As they become more dependent on kubernetes and get more hands on with kubernetes. We think that we're going thio provide ah lot of ways for them to be more empowered with kubernetes while at the same time lowering the bar, the bar or the barrier of entry for kubernetes. As many enterprises have have told us that you know kubernetes can be difficult for the broader developer community inside the organization Thio interact with right? So this is, uh, you know, a strategic underpinning of our our product strategy. And this is really the first step in a non going launch of technologies that we're going to make bigger netease easier for developing. >>I was gonna say the other Easter egg that's all over the agenda, as I'm just kind of looking through the agenda. It's kubernetes on 80 infrastructure multi cloud kubernetes Miranda's open stack on kubernetes. So Goober Netease plays a huge part and you know, we talk a lot about kubernetes at all the events that we cover. But as you said, kind of the new theme that we're hearing a little bit more Morris is the difficulty and actually managing it so looking, kind of beyond the actual technology to the operations and the execution in production. And it sounds like you guys might have a few things up your sleeve to help people be more successful in in and actually kubernetes in production. >>Yeah, absolutely. So, uh, kubernetes is the focus of most of the companies in our space. Obviously, we think that we have some ideas for how we can, you know, really begin thio enable enable it to fulfill its promise as the operating system for the cloud eso. If we think about the ecosystem that's formed around kubernetes, uh, you know, it's it's now really being held back on Lee by adoption user adoption. And so that's where our focus in our product strategy really lives is around. How can we accelerate the move to kubernetes and accelerate the move to cloud native applications on? But in order to provide that acceleration catalyst, you need to be able to address the needs of not only the operators and make their lives easier while still giving them the tools they need for things like policy enforcement and operational insights. At the same time, Foster, you know, a grassroots, um, upswell of developer adoption within their company on bond Really help the I t. Operations team serve their customers the developers more effectively. >>Well, Dave, it sounds like a great event. We we had a great time covering those open stack events with you guys. We've covered the doctor events for years and years and years. Eso super engaged community and and thanks for, you know, inviting us back Thio to cover this inaugural event as well. So it should be terrific. Everyone just go to Miranda's dot com. The big pop up Will will jump up. You just click on the button and you can see the full agenda on get ready for about a month from now. When when the big reveal, September 16th will happen. Well, Dave, thanks for sharing this quick update with us. And I'm sure we're talking a lot more between now in, uh, in the 16 because I know there's a cube track in there, so we look forward to interview in our are our guests is part of the part of the program. >>Absolutely. Eso welcome everyone. Join us at the event and, uh, you know, stay tuned for the big reveal. >>Everybody loves a big reveal. All right, well, thanks a lot, Dave. So he's Dave. I'm Jeff. You're watching the Cube. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time.

>> Live from San Francisco, it's theCUBE, covering DockerCon 18. Brought to you by Docker and it's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of DockerCon 2018 in beautiful San Francisco. It's a stunning day here. We're at Moscone West, I'm Lisa Martin with John Troyer. Very honored to welcome to theCUBE, for the first time, the CEO of Docker Inc., Steve Singh. Welcome, Steve. >> Hi Lisa, very nice to meet you. John, how are you? >> So the general session this morning, standing room only between five and six thousand people. I gotta say a couple things that jumped out at me. One, coolest stage entrance I've ever seen with this great, if you haven't seen it from the livestream, this, like, 3D Golden Gate Bridge and I loved that and I loved the demo of Docker Desktop that your kids did, fueled by Mountain Dew, which actually single handedly got me through college here in San Francisco. So, the momentum that you guys, it was kicking off with a bang. >> Yeah, I, look, I've got a great team and one of the things we wanted to communicate this morning is that you're seeing a massive transformation in the world of software. And this transformation is enabling every company in the world to think about their business in a new light. To think about how their business meets customer needs in a way that's much more personal, in a way that delivers more value. And this is the beauty of where Docker is, right, we have a chance to help literally every company in the world. And that's the part, honestly, that gets me excited, is, like, how do you help other people go create amazing businesses? And so this is, I couldn't be more happy to be at Docker. >> Steve, keying on that, one of the customers on stage today, McKesson. >> Yeah. >> And I loved Rashmi Kumar came out and talked about future-proofing for applications, their infrastructure, their applications in partnership with Docker. >> Yeah. And that implies a certain amount of trust that they have in Docker and Docker's technology platform and in partnering with you. You come from a, so you've been at Docker for about a year now, right? Came in as CEO. Docker is still a small company, a couple hundred folks but punching way above its weight with a huge community impact. How do you, and, you know, you've worked with the biggest companies in the world, how do you come in and establish that trust and help reassure them that you're gonna be a good partner for them and, kinda, what are you seeing with your customers? >> It's a great question, John, and look, there's maybe two or three pieces of how we think about that. The first thing, trust is very human, right? You've gotta know that you're walking into a situation as a vendor and as a customer but really as partners. And you're trying to solve a problem together. Because the reality is, this transformation that companies are going through is the first time in 40 years that this kind of transformation has happened. Second is, the technology stack is still in the early stages. Now, it's incredible and it enables amazing things, but it's still in the early stages. So both of us have to walk into the relationship knowing that, you know what, sometimes it won't go perfect, but guess what? We're gonna be, you know, if it doesn't go perfect we're gonna honor everything we ever committed to you and the same thing on the customer's side. They look at it and say, "I may have actually described my needs differently than what they actually are." And that's what a real partnership is. That's number one. Number two is, trust is driven by culture. And one of the things that I love about Docker is that we see our place in the world but we wanna make sure the customer always has choice. We wanna make sure that if we do a great job the customer will choose to work with us. If we don't, they should have the choice to go somewhere else. And that's what our platform enables, is the choice to be able to work with anybody you'd like to work with, whether you're the developer or you're an operator or you're an IT, I'm sorry, an architect, or the executive. The other piece around this is that part of the value of Docker is it's not just the 400 people of our company, right? There's 5,000 members of our community that are adding value to our community. One of the things that I wanna make sure we do for our community is help them not just innovate on this incredible platform but how do we help them take their innovations to market? And so that's part of the ethos of our company. >> One of the things that you talked about this morning that I thought was really compelling was, you said software innovation used to be, for the last 40 years, it's been driven by tech companies. That's changing. You talked about distributed innovation and distributed consumption. How is Docker helping to, culturally, I don't wanna say instill, but helping to influence, maybe, organizations to be able to distribute innovation and be able to share bi-directionally? >> Yeah, so, a great question, Lisa. So, first of all, is there's a cultural change within companies. When you think about the next generation or the next 40 years being, software being driven from non-technology companies. First of all, we're seeing that. Second is that it requires a cultural change within the business but that change is critical 'cause in the absence of becoming more of a software company your business is gonna be under threat, right? From the competing business. Look at what Netflix has done in media compared to every other media company. That same example applies in every single industry. Now, the way that we help enable that software transformation is to provide a platform that is so easy to use that it doesn't require a lot of training. Now this is complicated platforms, so, yes you have to be a fantastic developer or an IT professional but our job is to take complicated technology like container management software, orchestration layers like Swarm or Kubernetes, service mesh, storage networking, all of those, and make it so simple and easy to use that your IT department can say, "I can use this platform to effectively future-proof your company," right? So, how do you have a platform that you can build every application on, take all of you legacy applications on, run it, and then run it anywhere you like. >> I think that's been one of the through lines for Docker since the very beginning, that developer experience, right? >> Yes. >> And what's been interesting in Docker's development was, I think for both inside and outside, is kind of, what is Docker Inc, and the project versus the company, what is it selling, what's the commercial aspect here? I think, I kind of think back to my experience at BMWare, where there was an enterprise side and then a huge install base of workstation folks. And it's even stronger with Docker because actually now with Docker Desktop as an application development environment or a, you know, I don't wanna, not quite development environment but, you know, the one you announced today with Docker Desktop. That's an even more valuable through line into the Enterprise Edition. >> Yeah. >> But I don't, so, I guess where I'm heading, Steve, is, can you talk a little bit about the commercial situation? Docker EE as the flagship platform. >> Yeah, of course. >> And, kind of, where we are in the maturity journey with customers right now, it's real and important. >> Absolutely John, but you're bringing up a great point within this. Look, we're both, we're a enterprise software company and we're this incredible community where innovation is being brought in by every member of the community. And there's nothing in the world that says you can't do both. This idea that you're one company versus another, this is nonsense, alright? It's a very narrow view of the world. In fact, I would argue that, more and more, companies have to think about that they have multiple people that they serve. Multiple constituents that they serve. In our case we serve the Enterprise IT organization and we also serve developers. And developers are a critical part, not just of our community, that is the life of every company going forward. Which is why we're so excited about this. That's the life of every company. So, Docker Desktop, the reason we're so excited about it is, first of all, it is the easiest way to engage with Docker, to build applications. And then we feel like there's a lot more innovation that we can actually deliver within Docker Desktop. Alright, so a million new developers joined on Docker Desktop this year. In fact, we're growing about seven or eight percent month over month on that. And so you should expect over the next year another million will be on Docker Desktop. But it's incumbent upon us to say, the only way that we continue to earn the trust of that portion of our constituents, that of the developer community, is to make sure we're innovative, to make sure we're open to allow others to innovate on top of us. >> I'd love to, kind of, explore on audience a little bit. So, in terms of innovation, you know, we know that the companies that have the ability to aggressively innovate, and to do that they have to have the budget, are the ones that stay relevant and that are the most competitive. But I think I saw some stats and I think Scott Johnson said that close to 90 percent of IT budgets are spent keeping the lights on. So you have very little dollars to actually drive innovation. So when you're talking with customers, and you said you just met with 25 of Docker Inc's biggest customers just this morning, are you talking to both the developer guys and girls as well as the C suite? >> Yeah. >> What is, how are you connecting and then, maybe, is it a conversation to enable the developers to be able to sell the value up the stack or is it vice versa? >> A couple of things here, so, first of all, John, I didn't answer part of your question which is the growth in our Enterprise customer base. We've literally doubled it year over year, right? So, more than 500 Global 10,000 companies that are using Docker to run their applications and to manage their applications. The way that we engage with our customers is literally across the entire constituents of that organization, right? A developer by themselves, as genius as that group of people are, you can't deliver the application. And delivering the application is just as important as building it. And so the IT organization, the ops organization is critical. And then there's gotta be an overriding objective. What is it we're trying to do? How do we transform ourselves into a software company? You think about, think about just for example, Tesla, right? When you have a company, and I realize Tesla's stock goes up and down, they're always in the news, but when you have a company that's worth more than some of the biggest automotive companies in the world, you have to ask yourself why. Well, part of the reason why isn't just the fact that we've got an electric vehicle that's better for the environment. Part of it is, it's really as much a software company as it is a automotive company. They have incredible amounts of data about how we use our cars, where we go, and in fact the Tesla cars are actually interconnected. And so, that brings a perspective in how you build cars and how they're gonna be used and how they're gonna be consumed that's radically different than if you're just an auto manufacturer. Now, look, Ford and GM and Volvo are all really smart, great companies and they're quickly moving through to themselves being software companies. >> Steve, can you talk a little bit about ecosystems? Microsoft, on stage this morning, a long partnership with them but also here at the show, right, enterprise folks, Dell and Accenture and I'm just looking down the list as well as Google and Amazon, right? So, you need to be partnering with a lot of folks to make all this work. How are you approaching that? >> John, part of the reason for that is, let's start with a simple premise, is something this large, alright, you can't possibly innovate fast enough on your own, alright? There's seven billion amazing people on this planet. The only way you can really drive mass scale global innovation, is you have to be open, right? I'm literally a guy that was born in a mud house in India, so I certainly appreciate the opportunity to participate in the rest of the world's economy. So we have to be open to say, anybody that wants to contribute, can. Now, obviously we think that contribution has to be within an ethos, right? If your definition of contribution is how do you help your own business, that's not good enough. You have to look at this and say, there has to be choice, in our view, choice, security and agility. So, how do we deliver those values or that ethos to our customers? And if you're willing to do that, man we want to partner with everybody in this space. >> Yeah, I, sometimes I despair of the tech press, although I consume a lot of it and if I never have to read another Swarm versus Kubernetes article again I would be happy. But Kubernetes' all over the keynote and it seems like Docker you all have embraced it and in fact are supporting it in very innovative ways with the cloud providers. In terms of ecosystem can you talk a little bit about-- >> Yeah, well, part of the value of Docker is we simplify very complex things and make it available to our customers to consume with little training, little understanding of the underlying deep technology. And the other part is that it comes back to this idea that innovation will happen everywhere. Why should we view the world as it's our solution or, you know, nobody's? That's nonsense, right? Kubernetes is a fantastic orchestrational entity. Why shouldn't it be integrated into the Docker container platform? And so, as we did that, guess what happened? Our customers, all they saw was, instead of conflict they saw the opportunity to work together. In fact it's been amazing for the growth in our business, that's why ewe doubled year over year. >> Now, collaboration is essential and we were talking with Scott Johnson a little bit earlier today about the internal collaboration but also the external collaboration with customers. You talked about partnerships, I think that the MTA program, the Modernization of Traditional Apps launched about a year ago with Avanade, Cisco, HPE and Microsoft. Tell us a little bit about that, probably around the same time that you came to the helm. You're seeing, you know, customers like Visa, PayPal as part of this program, be able to transform and go to the container journey. >> Yeah, and Lisa, this speaks to an observation you made a few minutes ago about the fact that, you know, 85, 90% of IT budgets are fixed before you even walk into the year. So, look, the Docker platform can be used for any kind of application. Legacy apps, next generation apps that run in the data center, next generation apps that run on Edge devices. But if you accept that 90% of the apps that sit within a company are all legacy apps, well, guess what, that's where their cost is. And then if you marry that to the fact that every CIO has this problem that I don't have a lot of money that's free in my budget. Well, how do we help solve that? And the way we chose to solve it is this Docker MTA solution. Modernizing Traditional Apps. Take your traditional apps, run 'em on the Docker platform, run 'em on any infrastructure you like, cut your app and infrastructure management costs in half. Now, then take that savings and then apply it towards innovation. This is why it resonates with CIO's. I mean, as much as they may love Docker and they may love us, they have a business to serve and they're very, very practical in how they think about, you know, going about their business. >> So with that approach, thanks John, how receptive were those enterprise CIO's to going, "You're right, we've gotta start with our enterprise apps." They don't have the luxury of time, of ripping out old infrastructure and building them on containers or microservices architectures. And these are often mission-critical applications. Was that an easy sell, was that, tell me about that. >> (laughs) Well, nothing's easy but the reality is, is that it, they got it quickly, right? Because it speaks directly to their paying point. And what I'm very proud of with my team is not only were we able to deliver a great product for MTA but we're also helping our customers actually make sure they can migrate these apps over. But what's been really a positive, you know, kind of a signal we've seen, that's still the early stages, is that as our customers are moving their legacy apps to Docker and running 'em on new infrastructure, sometimes public cloud, and cutting costs, they're starting to take that cost savings and actually applying it to their next generation apps. So they're not using Docker for new apps. And so that is, that's the benefit of when you really try to solve the problem the way the customer wants to consume it. >> So, Steve, the user conference, very energizing, right. >> Yeah. >> Already the energy's been good here, you've been doing trainings and certifications, there's people behind us, everyone's talking, so that kind of in some ways sets the tone for the year, so as you and your team go back to the office after this week, you know, what are you looking to do and what can we expect out of Docker? >> I'll just speak to two things. First of all, there's so much innovation we still have to deliver. If anything, you know, I would say my team will tell me I might be pushing a little hard. But you know what, this is the fun, you only have x number of years in life and you should make the most of it. So we're really excited about new apps, we're excited about SecurEdge apps. We're excited about, I don't know if you saw the demo this morning, of Armada, which allows you to run any app on any operating system, on any infrastructure, all from a single pane of glass. Our customers love that and they're very excited about that. That said, you know, this is a, it's a big test. We have a huge opportunity to welcome a lot of other companies, so when you walk around and see 5,000 people that see amazing opportunity, not just for Docker, for themselves, right? That's the secret part of Docker that I love. We're creating jobs that didn't exist before, right? I mean, you see kids coming out of college now getting Docker skills and they're using that to grow their IT profession. In fact, I was just at i.c.stars, this is an amazing organization in Chicago that helps individuals who've been displaced in the workforce learn the IT skills required to come back to the workforce and really help run internal IT organizations. Guess what they're learning? They're learning Docker. So that's, these are the kind of things that get us excited. >> And that's essential for enterprise organizations who, that's one of the challenges they face, was, you know, modernizing the data center, which they have to do, but then it requires new skill sets, maybe upskilling, so it's exciting to hear that you're seeing this investment in people that have an opportunity, the proclivity to actually learn this technology. >> Yeah, this is, we are happy because we help customers but we also create amazing new jobs that, you know, are, certainly our community can still benefit from. >> So, last question, the three themes that came out of your session and really the general session this morning was, you talked about someone's choice, agility and security. Are those the three pillars that you believe Docker, upon which Docker sits as really competitive differentiators? >> Amen, amen, number one, but it's also our values, right? This is rooted in our values and when a company performs best is when their values show up in their products. Because then you're never lost, you'll always know what you're focused on. And you know, when I ran Concur, we had this vision, north star, called The Perfect Trip. And our objective was to always go create a delightful business trip experience. And for Docker I wanna make sure that we have a north star. And our north star is our values and they have to translate directly to what actually helps the customer. >> Love that, the north star. Well, hopefully theCUBE is the north star of modern tech media. Steve, thanks so much for stopping by. >> Thank you, it's wonderful to meet you. It was great to meet you as well and congratulations on the big success. >> Thank you. >> We look forward to hearing-- >> Thank you Lisa, thank you John. >> What's coming out in the next year. >> Thank you. >> And we wanna thank you for watching theCUBE, I'm Lisa Martin with John Troyer today live from San Francisco DockerCon 2018. Stick around, we'll be back after a short break. (upbeat music)

>> Man: Live, from Boston, Massachusetts, it's The Cube, covering Red Hat Summit 2017, brought to you by Red Hat. >> Welcome back to The Cube's coverage of the Red Hat Summit, here in Boston, Massachusetts. I'm you're host Rebecca Knight along with my co-host Stu Miniman. We're joined by Ashesh Badani. He is the Vice President and General Manager of OpenShift here at Red Hat. Thanks so much, Ashesh. >> Thanks for having me on yet again. >> Yes, you are a Cube veteran, so welcome back. We're always happy to talk to you. You're also an OpenShift veteran. You've been there five years, and before the cameras are rolling you were talking about how we really are at a tipping point here with OpenShift, and we're seeing a widespread adoption and embrace of containers. Can you share the context with us. >> Sure, so I think we've spent a fair amount of time in this market talking about how important containers are, the value of containers, DevOps, microservices. I think at this Red Hat Summit, we've spent a fair amount of time trying to ensure that people understand one containers are real, in terms of, you know, adoption level that we're seeing. They're being run in production and at scale. And across a variety of industries, right. So, just at this summit we've had over 30 customers from across the world, across industries like financial services, government, transportation, tech, telco, a variety of different industries talking about how they've been deploying and using containers. At our keynotes we had Macquarie Bank from Australia, Barclay's Bank from the U.K. We had United Health slash OPTUM. All talking about, you know, mission critical applications, how their developers running applications, both new applications, right, microservice-style applications, but also existing legacy applications on the OpenShift platform. >> Ashesh, I've been watching this for a few years, we've talked to you many times, we talked about containers. Maybe I'm oversimplifying it but let me know. It feels like OpenShift is your delivery mechanism to take some things that might be hard if I tried to do them myself and made it a lot simpler. Kind of give like Red Hat did for Linux, I have containers, I have Kubernetes, I have OpenStack, and all three of those I didn't hear a ton at the show, I heard a lot about OpenShift and the OpenShift family because underneath OpenShift are those pieces. Am I gettin' it right, or there's more nuance you need-- >> Great observation, great observation, yeah, and we're seeing that from our customers, too. So, when they're making strategic choice, they're talking about, you know, how can I find the container platform to run at scale. When they make their choice, all they're thinking about well what's the existing, you know, development tools I've got. Can it integrate with the ones that I have in place. What's the underlying infrastructure they can run on. OpenStack of course is a great one, right. We have many customers, Santander, BBVA Bank are just two examples of those, but then also, can I run the OpenShift structure in a hybrid cloud, or I guess what we're calling a multi-cloud world now. Amazon, Google, Asher, and so on. But actually interestingly enough we made some announcements with Amazon as well at the show with regard to making sure some AWS service are able to be integrated into the OpenShare platform. So, we find customers today finding a lot of value in the flexibility of the deployment platforms they have in place, integration with various developer tools. I think my colleague Harry Mower was on earlier talking about OpenShift.io, again, you know, super interesting, super exciting now it's been from our perspective with regard to giving developers more choice. And in addition to that, you know, the other parts of the portfolio, right, going to your point, earlier. We're trying to attach that increasingly as options for customers around OpenShift. Storage is a great example. So we announced some work we've doing with regard to container storage with our classified system for OpenShift. >> So you're talking about simplification and that does seem to be a real theme here. Once you've solved that problem, what's next, what are some of the other customer issues that you need to resolve and help them overcome and make their lives easier? >> Yeah, so, the rate of change in technology, as you well know, you've been following this now for a while is just dramatic, right. I think it's probably faster than we've ever seen in a long, long time. I was having a conversation with a large franchise customer with regard to, you know, just as we feel like, you know, we're getting people to adopt Hadoop, everyone seems to have moved on to Spark. And now we're on Spark and people are talking about, oh, maybe Flink is next. Now that we get to Flink, now they're saying AI and ML is next. It's just like, well, where does this stop, right. So I don't think it stops. The question is, you know, at what point of time do you sort of jump in. Embrace the change, right, that's sort of what Devops all about right, continuous change, you know, embrace it, be able to evolve with it, fail fast, pick yourself up, and then have the organization be in this sort of continuous learning, this kaizen environment. >> Yeah, Ashesh, from day one of the keynote talked about the platforms and you know Red Hat Enterprise Linux was kind of the first big platform that can live a lot of environments. Seems OpenShift is a second platform, and the scope of it seems to be growing. We talked to Harry about the OpenShift.io. He alluded to the fact that we might see expansion into the family there. What is, you said that innovation, and you know change keeps growing. What's the boundaries of what OpenShift's going to cover. Where do you see it today and where's the vision go moving forward? >> Yeah, so (laughs) great question, a double-edged sword right. Because on the one hand of course we want to make sure OpenShift is a foundation for doing a lot of stuff. But then there's also the Linux philosophy. Do one thing, do it well, right. And so there's always this temptation with regard to keeping on wanting to take new things on, right, I mean for a long time people have said, hey, why aren't we in the database business? You know, why aren't you doing more? Well the question is, you know, how many things can we do well? Because anything we commit to, as you well know, Red Hat will invest significant amount of engineering effort upstream in the community to help drive it forward, right. We've done that on Linux container front. We're doing that in Kubernetes. Obviously we do that with RHEL, we've done that Jboss technologies. So, we're very, very cognizant of making sure that we provide an environment and basically an ecosystem around us that can grow and be able to attach the momentum we have in place. As a result of that we announced the container health index at this conference, right. Mostly because, you know, there's just no way for one company to provide all the services that are possible, right. So to be able to grade applications that come in, be able to sort of give customers confidence that, you know, these can be certified and work in our environment, and then be able to kind of expand out that ecosystem is going to be really important going forward. >> Yeah, Ashesh that's an interesting one, the container health index. I'm going to play with the term there. What's the health of the container industry there. We at The Cube at DockerCon a couple weeks ago had a couple of Red Hatters on the program. There was kind of a reshuffling, you know. The Moby project, open source, we've got Docker CE, Docker EE, Docker actually referenced, you know, Fedora and CentOS and RHEL as you know, something that they did similar to but, what's your take on the announcements there? >> Sure, sure, I'll probably butcher this quote tremendously, but it was Mark Twain or someone said, "The rumors of my whatever are greatly exaggerated," so. You know, there's always, you know, some amount of change that sort of happens, especially with new technology, and you've got so many players sort of jumping in, right. I mean of course there's Docker Inc. There's Red Hat but there's, you know, Google and IBM and Microsoft and Amazon, and there's a lot of companies, right, that all look at this as a way of advancing the number of workloads that come onto their platforms. You know, we've seen some of the challenges, if you will, that Docker Inc. has been facing as well as the great work it's been doing to help drive the community forward, right. Those are both interesting things. And they've got a business to run. We've announced, we've seen the changes announced with regard to some of the renaming and Moby, and I think there's still a lot more detail that need to be fleshed out. And so I, we're going to wait for the dust to settle. I think we want to make sure our customers are confident. We've had this conversation with many customers that whatever direction that, you know, we go in, we will continue supporting that technology. We will stand behind it. We will make sure we're putting upstream engineers to help drive the community that will provide the greatest value for customers. >> Ashesh, you're one of the judges for the Innovation Awards here. Can you tell us a little bit more about the secret sauce that you're looking for. First of all, how you choose these winners, and what it is you're looking for. >> Yeah, so I'm really proud of the work I do to help support the judging of the Innovation Awards. You know, I think it's a fantastic thing we do to recognize, I was telling Stu earlier, you know we could probably have done a dozen more awards, right, the entries that are coming in are just fantastic. We try to change up the categories a little bit every year to kind of match with the changes in industry, like for example, you know, DevOps, Macquarie Bank was a great example of enterprise transformation. You know, they had this great line in their keynote right, where their ambition I think really impressed a lot of the judges with regard to, hey our competition is not necessarily the other financial service companies, it's the last app you opened. That's a remarkable thing, right. Especially for an existing traditional financial services company, you see. So, I think what we look for is scope, ambition, and vision, but also how you're executing against it, and what demonstrable results do you have for that. And so, you probably saw that, as, you know, we talked about all the various innovation awards we gave, right, whether it's Macquarie Bank or, you know, British Columbia Empower Individuals, right, so the whole notion of celebrating the impact of individual, and create an exchange for them to engage with the wider civic body. That's really important for us. >> Ashesh, one of the innovation award-winners OPTUM we talked to, they're an OpenShift customer. They're really excited with the AWS announcement. We've been chewing on it, talking to a lot of people. We think it's the most significant news coming out of the show. As you said, there's certain details that need to bake out when we look at some of these things. By the time we get to AWS Reinvent we'll probably understand a little bit some of the pricing and, you know, some of the other pieces, and it'll be there, but, you know, bring us from your viewpoint, from an OpenShift standpoint what this means to kind of an extension of the product line and your customers. >> Yeah, so, we've got, at least at this show you had over 30 customers presenting about their use of OpenShift. And we typically find them deploying OpenShift in a variety of different environments including AWS. So for example Swiss Rail, right, obviously out of Switzerland, is taking advantage of, you know, running it in their own data center, taking advantage of AWS as well. When they're doing that they want to make sure that they can consume services from Amazon. Just as if they were running it on Amazon, right. They like the container platform that OpenShift provides, and they like the abstraction level that it puts in place. Of course they have different choices, right. They can choose to run it on OpenStack, they can choose to run OpenShift in some other public cloud provider, yet there are many services that Amazon's releasing that are extremely interesting and value that they provide to their customers. By being able to have relationship with Amazon, and have an almost native experience of those services with regard to OpenShift, regardless of the underlying infrastructure OpenShift runs, it is a very powerful value proposition, definitely for our customers. It's a great one for Amazon because it allows for their services to be used across a multitude of environments. And we feel good about that because we're creating value for our customers, and of course not precluding them from using other services as well. >> I'm wondering if you could shed a little light on the financials, and how you think about things. I mean, you made this great point about the banks saying our competition is the last app you opened. How do you think, with OpenShift, which is free, how do you view your competition, and how do you think about it in terms of the way companies are making their decisions about where they're putting their money in IT investments. >> Right, so OpenShift isn't free, so I'll just make sure-- (all laugh) >> OpenShift.io >> OpenShift.io, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, yes. >> So, consider OpenShift.io as a great gateway into the OpenShift experience, right. It's a cloud-based web environment allows you to develop in browsers, allows you some collaboration with other developers. There's actually a really cool part of the tech, I don't know if Harry talked about right, which is, we almost have, almost machine-learning aspect part of it, you know, that's in play with regard to, you know, if this is the code you're using, here are what other users are doing with it, making recommendations, and so on, so it's a really modern integrated, you know, development environment that we're sort of introducing. That of course doesn't mean that customers can't use existing ones that they have in place. So this is just giving customers more choice. By doing that, we're basically expanding the span of options the customers have. We introduced something called OpenShift Application Runtimes also at this conference, which is supporting existing Java languages or tools or frameworks, right, whether it's Jboss, EAP, Vortex, WildFly, Spring Boot, but also newer ones like No-JavaScript, right, so again, in the spirit of, let's give you choices, let's have you sort of use what you most want to use, and then from our perspective, right, you know, we will create value when it's been deployed at scale. >> Ashesh, before the event at the beginning of it you guys run something called OpenShift Commons. There's some deep education and a lot of it very interactive. I'm curious if there's anything that's kind of surprised you or interesting nuggets that you got from the users. Either stuff that they were further ahead or further behind, or just something that's grabbin' their attention that you could share with our users. >> Well, what I've been really happy to see with the OpenShift Commons is, well, this is a couple things, right. One is we try our best to make it literally a community event, right, so we call it OpenShift Commons but it is a community event. So in the past and even now, we have providers of technologies, even though they might compete with Red Hat and OpenShift available to talk to. Customers, users of our technology, right, so we want it to be an open, welcoming environment for various providers. Second, we're seeing more and more customers wanting to come out and share their experiences, right. So at this OpenShift Commons, I think we had maybe over 10 customers present on, you know, how they were using OpenShift, and sharing with other customers. Number three, this really attracts other customers. I just had a large financial services institution come and say, you know, we attended OpenShift Commons for the first time. This is a fantastic community. How can we become a part of this? You know, get us involved. There's no cost to join, right, it's free and open, and now our numbers are pretty significant. And then when that's in place, right, the ecosystem forms around it. Now, so we have several different ISVs, global system integrators who are all sort of, you know, coalescing, to provide additional services. >> Ashesh, thanks so much for your time, we appreciate it. It's always a pleasure to have you on the program. >> Ashesh: Thanks again, see you all next time. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for Stu Miniman. There'll be more from the Red Hat Summit after this. (relaxed digital beats)

>> Announcer: Live from Austin, Texas. It's theCUBE, covering DockerCon 2017. Brought to you by Docker, and support from its ecosystem partners. (bright electronic music) >> Welcome back. I'm Stu Miniman, joined by Jim Kobielus for two days of theCUBE's live coverage, DockerCon 2017, here in Austin, Texas. We are the worldwide leader in live enterprise tech coverage, happy to welcome to the program, a first-time guest on theCUBE, happens to also be a local here in the Austin area, so Dustin Kirkland, the Ubuntu Product and Strategy, with Canonical, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thanks, Stu. >> All right, so Dustin, give us a good thumbnail, what's your role, and how excited are you to be at another local show. All the open source shows seem to be here in Austin. I mean, we love doing it. >> I'm super glad. >> Dustin: We love sharing Austin. Glad for people to come and visit. Just make sure you go home at the end of it. (chuckles) >> Jim: Keep Austin weird and keep it open. >> That's right, that's right. Yeah, it's great to be local, it's great to have the Docker community back in Austin. It was, a lot of these people were here for OpenStack. We'll be back for CubeCon later this year. OSCON in between. >> All right, and tell us a little bit about your role. >> Yes, so I lead Product and Strategy at Ubuntu. We make an operating system that runs in the cloud, on public clouds, private clouds, bare-metal, physical servers, down to desktops and embedded devices. >> Okay, so, I have a serious question for you. Every time we see the surveys of OpenStack, the surveys in the public cloud, Canonical's always there. I mean, everybody's using your stuff. >> Dustin: Good! >> But where are people paying money for it? What's kind of from the business standpoint, maybe you can give us the quick update on that. >> People pay money when it's mission-critical. When Ubuntu and OpenStack and soon, Kubernetes, certainly more and more, Docker, when that's part of the mission-critical infrastructure, they pay for that. They pay the support and the services, they pay for consulting, for design, for leads, for architecture. They pay for access to the product roadmap, and so we do have some really brand-name customers who pay us good money for that. >> Okay, it's our third year doing theCUBE at this show, and every year, it seems we come in with one of the same questions, which is like, all right, is this ready for production, is anybody using it? We backed you to knock down the doors of everybody here, and give us more customers to talk to, so, what do you see, what's your answer to that? >> Yeah, I mean, it strikes me as really odd when people are still asking, "Are containers ready "for production?" Containers have been part of our DNA in Ubuntu for almost 10 years now. Shipping an OS that boots into a container that's able to run LXD containers, Docker containers, and run those at tremendous scale. We'd run containers underneath as the control plane of every OpenStack cloud we've ever deployed, every Kubernetes cloud we've ever deployed, every Hadoop cloud we've ever deployed. So containers are part of our production system. >> So do you guys have a marketing term? You guys are the hipster Linux container company. You were doing it before it was cool. >> I guess so, I mean it's, I guess, it's like asking, and I wonder, you think cellphones are mainstream yet? It's like, yeah, it is now, but you're probably one of the first in your family to have a cellphone, right? It's, we're kind of at that juncture, where we've been doing for a long time, and it's good to see others finally taking advantage as well. >> In the keynote this morning, we talked, we saw a lot about the maturation of Docker. They really started out working with the developer, they've really grown, working with the business, working with the enterprise. Talk to us about your customers as it fits into the container space in general, Docker, specifically. What are you guys seeing? >> As an operating system that delivers the latest and greatest open source software across multiple architectures, public and private clouds, Docker fits into that very well, in fact. It sits alongside LXD at giving that machine container, replace your VM's experience, but also the new way of writing applications. Solomon talked about applications, and if you're going to develop an application, Docker is a great application development platform. So when applications are being developed, (mumbles) or microservices, from scratch, Docker is a fantastic approach, and we see more developers using Ubuntu desktops and Ubuntu in the cloud, as that development platform. As that matures, then we get into a situation where it becomes mission-critical, and then we have really interesting commercial discussions around how do we really help that platform succeed? >> All right, we just Microsoft on the program. >> Dustin: John, right? >> Yeah, John was on, talks about, (mumbles) Microsoft is talking about being open, Microsoft's talking about choice. They actually talked, John mentioned, your company and your operating system. When we get to cloud solutions, Canonical's supported everywhere. How do you guys differentiate? How do you make sure that they're choosing your product as opposed to something else? >> So Ubuntu itself, always latest and greatest. It's fresh, you're never more than six months away from the next latest and greatest everything across the board. You're never more than two years away from an LTS, a long-term support release. That's really the key differentiator for Ubuntu is its freshment, its velocity, and that maps very well to the container world, where things are revving very, very quickly. >> All right, security was a big focus this morning also. What's your viewpoint as to where security lives, how that works with all of your environment, and what you guys do for that-- >> I've been a security nerd for most of my career. In fact, it's one of those jobs you leave but you always kind of get sucked back into because you care about it, honestly. Ubuntu as a platform, security, we take very seriously. Encryption anywhere, we can use encryption, updates, latest and greatest updates, kernel patches, Livepatch for the kernel. (coughs) Livepatch for the kernel is particularly interesting from a security perspective because it enables us to address security vulnerabilities without rebooting systems, and that's really important in a containerized environment, where you're not just running one or two machines, you're running potentially thousands of machines or containers or applications, and being able to update one single kernel with a Livepatch, without rebooting any of them, that's what security people are excited about when we talk Ubuntu kernel and security. >> (mumbles) Ubuntu being deployed into Internet of things, or to what extent is your roadmap going in that direction 'cause we're seeing a lot of new development going into the Internet of things, to deploy artificial intelligence and deep learning algorithms and data, down to the edge, and so-- >> Yeah, it's beautiful, I mean, that edge-to-cloud story is something that we've got a very clear view on. We produce an OS, an Ubuntu OS called Ubuntu Core, is a read-only operating system custom-tailored for IoT devices. That's the OS, it's the same Ubuntu but rolled and managed and updated in a different way. Applications fit onto that device in the form of snaps, or Docker containers, frankly. They're a little bit different in the way that they're implemented, but we have a new packaging system that's well-adapted, well-tuned-- >> A snap is more, something different from a container, how? >> It is, it's a form of a container. It's less than a container, but it uses some of the same container primitives. It's, frankly, it's an archive and a set of security profiles that wrap that tarball, essentially, and the way it's executed in a very secure manner, so it's wrapped with AppArmor profiles, it only has access to certain parts of the system, it contains its own dependencies, but they're contained in such a way that they're protected from the rest of the system. A lot of that sounds like Docker, and it is similar to Docker, but Docker provides a little bit more of that machine experience. Docker will include a file system, it'll draw an IP address sometimes, or defroute traffic, whereas a snap actually runs directly on the underlying OS. It's more tightly linked to that OS. In terms of linking back to the machine learning, that happens in the cloud. Inevitably, IoT drives more cloud adoption because those little IoT devices, they've got so little processing power and storage by design, that information needs to go somewhere, and it goes to the cloud, where something like a TensorFlow, running in a Docker Swarm, or a Kubernetes, or some combination of those two, are really crunching the interesting problems. >> First, Google recently made a big to-do about federating more of the machine learning algorithms all the way to the edge device, so, the world is going in that direction but I hear you. That's, they're very constrained-- >> Dustin: We hear a lot about the edge. >> To run the algorithms that pull power on the edge device, but it's coming. >> Yeah, for sure. >> Great. >> Stu: All right, so Dustin, I heard Kubernetes and Swarm, you guys, agnostic to that, support all of it. >> Dustin: We are. >> What do you guys code on, what do you hear from customers? >> Yeah, so we're very proud of our position here. I'm here at DockerCon, supporting Docker. Docker Inc. is a close commercial partner of Canonical. We, Canonical is authorized to resell Docker Enterprise Edition, Docker services, Docker support. We've got mutual customers who buy that directly from Canonical, and we support Docker and Swarm and Datacenter on top of Ubuntu, and that's a great story that brings us from the developers who are running Docker on Ubuntu on their Macs and Windows machines. John, I'm sure, was talking about Windows and Docker. But when they put that into production, we've got the wherewithal to support that. We offer Kubernetes as another platform. I've spoken with some really bright, just last night, with a really bright cloud architect from a major Internet service provider, and their role is they set up Docker Swarms for their internal customers, and Kubernetes Clusters for their internal customers, and Cloud Foundries, and OpenStacks, all inside of this big telco Internet cable giant, and it makes sense, and they can do all of that, and do all of that on top of Ubuntu, because it's the platform that can offer whatever they need for their customers. >> All right, one of the other announcements in the keynote this morning was LinuxKit, so, I got a little bit of a preview before the show, and I don't feel that it was Docker trying to punch at the providers of Linux, and it didn't seem to come off that way in the keynote, but for those that hear at a glance, oh, wait, LinuxKit developed with a bunch of, you know, seems like mostly hardware companies plus Microsoft and Docker. What do you guys see, how do you look at that? >> It's genuinely fun for an open source engineer to put together a Linux distribution. It's like the thing you want to do, and customize it and tailor it, and the beauty of open source is you can absolutely do that, and so, what I saw from LinuxKit, I too got a little preview, it seems it comes out of the part of Docker that also works on unikernels, Alpine, to an extent, and they've built a container-optimized, or Docker-optimized OS from Docker, so if you want Docker all the way down, it sounds like LinuxKit is a solution that they're working on, still working on. I'll say that Ubuntu, containers are in our DNA, we built a kernel and we built a security system around containers for quite some time, and we continue to optimize that, and we work directly with Microsoft, Google, Amazon to ensure that the Ubuntu that's running in those public clouds is ready to run Docker and other container systems out of the box, and very consistently, in a way that looks exactly like the Ubuntu that's running as the bash shell on the Windows desktop, as the Ubuntu desktop itself, as the server that you might run in any one of the public clouds. It's a very consistent experience. We do tune that and tailor that, but it's in ways that ensures portability. >> All right, so Dustin, you talked about kind of the history and how long people have been using it. Production should not be a question. It's just where, what, how you're doing this. What things do you still see us needing to mature, or what excites you about this going forward? >> Yeah. The management, honestly, and that comes back to security. Ensuring that running those containers at scale, you're doing that in a secure manner. Minimal is part of it. We hear that quite a bit, that, "I want a minimal image, I want a minimal host." That is an important part of it. It's, we have to be a little bit careful that we don't go so minimal that we end up creating a bunch of snowflakes, special unicorns where every container image is a little bit different, every host is a little bit different, because it's more minimal than the previous one. That actually creates more security problems, so I think thinking that problem through is, it's one of the most important problems that I think through, or I'm working on right now, and I think others are interested in working on as well. >> All right, Dustin, you've been way too pleasant through all of this interview, so before we end up, as an Austin local here, I have to ask you the divisive question. Your favorite barbecue place. (Dustin groans) >> You know-- >> Jim: Your favorite bar band, too. Keep going. >> Okay, yeah, I mean, you can't go wrong with the award-wining Franklin's barbecue or the gas station Rudy's, we love those. My favorite's a little hole in the wall out close to where I live. It's a trailer that's been serving barbecue out of that trailer since 1997. It's called Bee Caves barbecue. Those guys, they put together some fantastic barbecue five days a week. They sell it until they're out, and then they close up the shop and they go fishing, and it's, you got to get there early, and when they're done, they're done, so I-- >> Yeah, is there a connection between people that make barbecue and people that put together Linux distributions? It sounds like a lot of the same thing. >> Maybe so, maybe so, yeah. I've got a smoker out back. I like to smoke meat as much as I can. >> Absolutely, all right, well, Dustin, really appreciate you joining us. Welcome to the >> Stu, thank you, Jim. >> Stu: CUBE alumni list now, and we'll be back with more coverage here from DockerCon 2017. You're watching theCUBE. (bright electronic music) >> I remember--