>>from around the globe. It's the Cube presenting Cuban Cloud brought to you by Silicon Angle. Welcome back to the live segment of the Cuban cloud. I'm Dave, along with my co host, John Ferrier. John Rose is here. He's the global C T o Dell Technologies. John, great to see you as always, Really appreciate >>it. Absolutely good to know. >>Hey, so we're gonna talk edge, you know, the the edge, it's it's estimated. It's a multi multi trillion dollar opportunity, but it's a highly fragmented, very complex. I mean, it comprises from autonomous vehicles and windmills, even retail stores outer space. And it's so it brings in a lot of really gnarly technical issues that we want to pick your brain on. Let me start with just what to you is edge. How do you think about >>it? Yeah, I think I mean, I've been saying for a while that edges the when you reconstitute Ike back out in the real world. You know, for 10 years we've been sucking it out of the real world, taking it out of factories, you know, nobody has an email server under their desk anymore. On that was because we could put it in data centers and cloud public clouds, and you know that that's been a a good journey. And then we realized, Wait a minute, all the data actually was being created out in the real world. And a lot of the actions that have to come from that data have to happen in real time in the real world. And so we realized we actually had toe reconstitute a nightie capacity out near where the data is created, consumed and utilized. And, you know, that turns out to be smart cities, smart factories. You know, uh, we're dealing with military apparatus. What you're saying, how do you put, you know, edges in tow, warfighting theaters or first responder environments? It's really anywhere that data exists that needs to be processed and understood and acted on. That isn't in a data center. So it's kind of one of these things. Defining edge is easier to find. What it isn't. It's anywhere that you're going to have. I t capacity that isn't aggregated into a public or private cloud data center. That seems to be the answer. So >>follow. Follow that. Follow the data. And so you've got these big issue, of course, is late and see people saying, Well, some applications or some use cases like autonomous vehicles. You have to make the decision locally. Others you can you can send back. And you, Kamal, is there some kind of magic algorithm the technical people used to figure out? You know what, the right approaches? Yeah, >>the good news is math still works and way spent a lot of time thinking about why you build on edge. You know, not all things belong at the edge. Let's just get that out of the way. And so we started thinking about what does belong at the edge, and it turns out there's four things you need. You know, if you have a real time responsiveness in the full closed loop of processing data, you might want to put it in an edge. But then you have to define real time, and real time varies. You know, real time might be one millisecond. It might be 30 milliseconds. It might be 50 milliseconds. It turns out that it's 50 milliseconds. You probably could do that in a co located data center pretty far away from those devices. One millisecond you better be doing it on the device itself. And so so the Leighton see around real time processing matters. And, you know, the other reasons interesting enough to do edge actually don't have to do with real time crossing they have to do with. There's so much data being created at the edge that if you just blow it all the way across the Internet, you'll overwhelm the Internets. We have need toe pre process and post process data and control the flow across the world. The third one is the I T. O T boundary that we all know. That was the I O t. Thing that we were dealing with for a long time. And the fourth, which is the fascinating one, is it's actually a place where you might want to inject your security boundaries, because security tends to be a huge problem and connected things because they're kind of dumb and kind of simple and kind of exposed. And if you protect them on the other end of the Internet, the surface area of protecting is enormous, so there's a big shift basically move security functions to the average. I think Gardner made up a term for called Sassy. You know, it's a pretty enabled edge, but these are the four big ones. We've actually tested that for probably about a year with customers. And it turns out that, you know, seems to hold If it's one of those four things you might want to think about an edge of it isn't it probably doesn't belong in >>it. John. I want to get your thoughts on that point. The security things huge. We talked about that last time at Del Tech World when we did an interview with the Cube. But now look at what's happened. Over the past few months, we've been having a lot of investigative reporting here at Silicon angle on the notion of misinformation, not just fake news. Everyone talks about that with the election, but misinformation as a vulnerability because you have now edge devices that need to be secured. But I can send misinformation to devices. So, you know, faking news could be fake data say, Hey, Tesla, drive off the road or, you know, do this on the other thing. So you gotta have the vulnerabilities looked at and it could be everything. Data is one of them. Leighton. See secure. Is there a chip on the device? Could you share your vision on how you see that being handled? Cause it's a huge >>problem. Yeah, this is this is a big deal because, you know, what you're describing is the fact that if data is everything, the flow of data ultimately turns into the flow of information that knowledge and wisdom and action. And if you pollute the data, if you could compromise it the most rudimentary levels by I don't know, putting bad data into a sensor or tricking the sensor which lots of people can dio or simulating a sensor, you can actually distort things like a I algorithms. You can introduce bias into them and then that's a That's a real problem. The solution to it isn't making the sensors smarter. There's this weird Catch 22 when you sense arise the world, you know you have ah, you know, finite amount of power and budget and the making sensors fatter and more complex is actually the wrong direction. So edges have materialized from that security dimension is an interesting augment to those connected things. And so imagine a world where you know your sensor is creating data and maybe have hundreds or thousands of sensors that air flowing into an edge compute layer and the edge compute layer isn't just aggregating it. It's putting context on it. It's metadata that it's adding to the system saying, Hey, that particular stream of telemetry came from this device, and I'm watching that device and Aiken score it and understand whether it's been compromised or whether it's trustworthy or whether it's a risky device and is that all flows into the metadata world the the overall understanding of not just the data itself, but where did it come from? Is it likely to be trustworthy? Should you score it higher or lower in your neural net to basically manipulate your algorithm? These kind of things were really sophisticated and powerful tools to protect against this kind of injection of false information at the sensor, but you could never do that at a sensor. You have to do it in a place that has more compute capacity and is more able to kind of enriched the data and enhance it. So that's why we think edges are important in that fourth characteristic of they aren't the security system of the sensor itself. But they're the way to make sure that there's integrity in the sense arised world before it reaches the Internet before it reaches the cloud data centers. >>So access to that metadata is access to the metadata is critical, and it's gonna be it's gonna be near real time, if not real time, right? >>Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, the important thing is, Well, I'll tell you this. You know, if you haven't figured this out by looking at cybersecurity issues, you know, compromising from the authoritative metadata is a really good compromise. If you could get that, you can manipulate things that a scale you've never imagined. Well, in this case, if the metadata is actually authoritatively controlled by the edge note the edge note is processing is determining whether or not this is trustworthy or not. Those edge nodes are not $5 parts, their servers, their higher end systems. And you can inject a lot more sophisticated security technology and you can have hardware root of trust. You can have, you know, mawr advanced. PK I in it, you can have a I engines watching the behavior of it, and again, you'd never do that in a sensor. But if you do it at the first step into the overall data pipeline, which is really where the edges materializing, you can do much more sophisticated things to the data. But you can also protect that thing at a level that you'd never be able to do to protect a smart lightbulb. A thermostat in your house? >>Uh, yes. So give us the playbook on how you see the evolution of the this mark. I'll see these air key foundational things, a distributed network and it's a you know I o t trends into industrial i o t vice versa. As a software becomes critical, what is the programming model to build the modern applications is something that I know. You guys talk to Michael Dell about this in the Cuban, everyone, your companies as well as everyone else. Its software define everything these days, right? So what is the software framework? How did people code on this? What's the application aware viewpoint on this? >>Yeah, this is, uh, that's unfortunately it's a very complex area that's got a lot of dimensions to it. Let me let me walk you through a couple of them in terms of what is the software framework for for For the edge. The first is that we have to separate edge platforms from the actual edge workload today too many of the edge dialogues or this amorphous blob of code running on an appliance. We call that an edge, and the reality is that thing is actually doing two things. It's, ah, platform of compute out in the real world and it's some kind of extension of the cloud data pipeline of the cloud Operating model. Instance, he added, A software probably is containerized code sitting on that edge platform. Our first principle about the software world is we have to separate those two things. You do not build your cloud your edge platform co mingled with the thing that runs on it. That's like building your app into the OS. That's just dumb user space. Colonel, you keep those two things separate. We have Thio start to enforce that discipline in the software model at the edges. The first principle, the second is we have to recognize that the edges are are probably best implemented in ways that don't require a lot of human intervention. You know, humans air bad when it comes to really complex distributed systems. And so what we're finding is that most of the code being pushed into production benefits from using things like kubernetes or container orchestration or even functional frameworks like, you know, the server list fast type models because those low code architectures generally our interface with via AP, eyes through CCD pipelines without a lot of human touch on it. And it turns out that, you know, those actually worked reasonably well because the edges, when you look at them in production, the code actually doesn't change very often, they kind of do singular things relatively well over a period of time. And if you can make that a fully automated function by basically taking all of the human intervention away from it, and if you can program it through low code interfaces or through automated interfaces, you take a lot of the risk out of the human intervention piece of this type environment. We all know that you know most of the errors and conditions that break things are not because the technology fails it because it's because of human being touches it. So in the software paradigm, we're big fans of more modern software paradigms that have a lot less touch from human beings and a lot more automation being applied to the edge. The last thing I'll leave you with, though, is we do have a problem with some of the edge software architectures today because what happened early in the i o t world is people invented kind of new edge software platforms. And we were involved in these, you know, edge X foundry, mobile edge acts, a crane. Oh, and those were very important because they gave you a set of functions and capabilities of the edge that you kind of needed in the early days. Our long term vision, though for edge software, is that it really needs to be the same code base that we're using in data centers and public clouds. It needs to be the same cloud stack the same orchestration level, the same automation level, because what you're really doing at the edge is not something that spoke. You're taking a piece of your data pipeline and you're pushing it to the edge and the other pieces are living in private data centers and public clouds, and you like they all operate under the same framework. So we're big believers in, like pushing kubernetes orchestration all the way to the edge, pushing the same fast layer all the way to the edge. And don't create a bespoke world of the edge making an extension of the multi cloud software framework >>even though the underlying the underlying hardware might change the microprocessor, GPU might change GP or whatever it is. Uh, >>by the way, that that's a really good reason to use these modern framework because the energies compute where it's not always next 86 underneath it, programming down at the OS level and traditional languages has an awful lot of hardware dependencies. We need to separate that because we're gonna have a lot of arm. We're gonna have a lot of accelerators a lot of deep. Use a lot of other stuff out there. And so the software has to be modern and able to support header genius computer, which a lot of these new frameworks do quite well, John. >>Thanks. Thanks so much for for coming on, Really? Spending some time with us and you always a great guest to really appreciate it. >>Going to be a great stuff >>of a technical edge. Ongoing room. Dave, this is gonna be a great topic. It's a clubhouse room for us. Well, technical edge section every time. Really. Thanks >>again, Jon. Jon Rose. Okay, so now we're gonna We're gonna move to the second part of our of our technical edge discussion. Chris Wolf is here. He leads the advanced architecture group at VM Ware. And that really means So Chris's looks >>at I >>think it's three years out is kind of his time. Arise. And so, you know, advanced architecture, Er and yeah. So really excited to have you here. Chris, can you hear us? >>Okay. Uh, >>can Great. Right. Great to see you again. >>Great >>to see you. Thanks for coming on. Really appreciate it. >>So >>we're talking about the edge you're talking about the things that you see way set it up is a multi trillion dollar opportunity. It's It's defined all over the place. Uh, Joey joke. It's Could be a windmill. You know, it could be a retail store. It could be something in outer space. Its's It's it's, you know, whatever is defined A factory, a military installation, etcetera. How do you look at the edge. And And how do you think about the technical evolution? >>Yeah, I think it is. It was interesting listening to John, and I would say we're very well aligned there. You know, we also would see the edge is really the place where data is created, processed and are consumed. And I think what's interesting here is that you have a number off challenges in that edges are different. So, like John was talking about kubernetes. And there's there's multiple different kubernetes open source projects that are trying to address thes different edge use cases, whether it's K three s or Cubbage or open your it or super edge. And I mean the list goes on and on, and the reason that you see this conflict of projects is multiple reasons. You have a platform that's not really designed to supported computing, which kubernetes is designed for data center infrastructure. Uh, first on then you have these different environments where you have some edge sites that have connectivity to the cloud, and you have some websites that just simply don't write whether it's an oil rig or a cruise ship. You have all these different use cases, so What we're seeing is you can't just say this is our edge platform and, you know, go consume it because it won't work. You actually have to have multiple flavors of your edge platform and decide. You know what? You should time first. From a market perspective, I >>was gonna ask you great to have you on. We've had many chest on the Cube during when we actually would go to events and be on the credit. But we appreciate you coming into our virtual editorial event will be doing more of these things is our software will be put in the work to do kind of a clubhouse model. We get these talks going and make them really valuable. But this one is important because one of the things that's come up all day and we kind of introduced earlier to come back every time is the standardization openness of how open source is going to extend out this this interoperability kind of vibe. And then the second theme is and we were kind of like the U S side stack come throwback to the old days. Uh, talk about Cooper days is that next layer, but then also what is going to be the programming model for modern applications? Okay, with the edge being obviously a key part of it. What's your take on that vision? Because that's a complex area certain a lot of a lot of software to be written, still to come, some stuff that need to be written today as well. So what's your view on How do you programs on the edge? >>Yeah, it's a It's a great question, John and I would say, with Cove it We have seen some examples of organizations that have been successful when they had already built an edge for the expectation of change. So when you have a truly software to find edge, you can make some of these rapid pivots quite quickly, you know. Example was Vanderbilt University had to put 1000 hospital beds in a parking garage, and they needed dynamic network and security to be able to accommodate that. You know, we had a lab testing company that had to roll out 400 testing sites in a matter of weeks. So when you can start tohave first and foremost, think about the edge as being our edge. Agility is being defined as you know, what is the speed of software? How quickly can I push updates? How quickly can I transform my application posture or my security posture in lieu of these types of events is super important. Now, if then if we walk that back, you know, to your point on open source, you know, we see open source is really, uh you know, the key enabler for driving edge innovation and driving in I S V ecosystem around that edge Innovation. You know, we mentioned kubernetes, but there's other really important projects that we're already seeing strong traction in the edge. You know, projects such as edge X foundry is seeing significant growth in China. That is, the core ejects foundry was about giving you ah, pass for some of your I o T aps and services. Another one that's quite interesting is the open source faith project in the Linux Foundation. And fate is really addressing a melody edge through a Federated M L model, which we think is the going to be the long term dominant model for localized machine learning training as we continue to see massive scale out to these edge sites, >>right? So I wonder if you could You could pick up on that. I mean, in in thinking about ai influencing at the edge. Um, how do you see that? That evolving? Uh, maybe You know what, Z? Maybe you could We could double click on the architecture that you guys see. Uh, progressing. >>Yeah, Yeah. Right now we're doing some really good work. A zai mentioned with the Fate project. We're one of the key contributors to the project. Today. We see that you need to expand the breath of contributors to these types of projects. For starters, uh, some of these, what we've seen is sometimes the early momentum starts in China because there is a lot of innovation associated with the edge there, and now it starts to be pulled a bit further West. So when you look at Federated Learning, we do believe that the emergence of five g I's not doesn't really help you to centralized data. It really creates the more opportunity to create, put more data and more places. So that's, you know, that's the first challenge that you have. But then when you look at Federated learning in general, I'd say there's two challenges that we still have to overcome organizations that have very sophisticated data. Science practices are really well versed here, and I'd say they're at the forefront of some of these innovations. But that's 1% of enterprises today. We have to start looking at about solutions for the 99% of enterprises. And I'd say even VM Ware partners such as Microsoft Azure Cognitive Services as an example. They've been addressing ML for the 99%. I say That's a That's a positive development. When you look in the open source community, it's one thing to build a platform, right? Look, we love to talk about platforms. That's the easy part. But it's the APS that run on that platform in the services that run on that platform that drive adoption. So the work that we're incubating in the VM, or CTO office is not just about building platforms, but it's about building the applications that are needed by say that 99% of enterprises to drive that adoption. >>So if you if you carry that through that, I infer from that Chris that the developers are ultimately gonna kind of win the edge or define the edge Um, How do you see that From their >>perspective? Yeah, >>I think its way. I like to look at this. I like to call a pragmatic Dev ops where the winning formula is actually giving the developer the core services that they need using the native tools and the native AP eyes that they prefer and that is predominantly open source. It would some cloud services as they start to come to the edge as well. But then, beyond that, there's no reason that I t operations can't have the tools that they prefer to use. A swell. So we see this coming together of two worlds where I t operations has to think even for differently about edge computing, where it's not enough to assume that I t has full control of all of these different devices and sensors and things that exists at the edge. It doesn't happen. Often times it's the lines of business that air directly. Deploying these types of infrastructure solutions or application services is a better phrase and connecting them to the networks at the edge. So what does this mean From a nightie operations perspective? We need tohave, dynamic discovery capabilities and more policy and automation that can allow the developers to have the velocity they want but still have that consistency of security, agility, networking and all of the other hard stuff that somebody has to solve. And you can have the best of both worlds here. >>So if Amazon turned the data center into an A P I and then the traditional, you know, vendors sort of caught up or catching up and trying to do in the same premise is the edge one big happy I Is it coming from the cloud? Is it coming from the on Prem World? How do you see that evolving? >>Yes, that's the question and races on. Yeah, but it doesn't. It doesn't have to be exclusive in one way or another. The VM Ware perspective is that, you know, we can have a consistent platform for open source, a consistent platform for cloud services. And I think the key here is this. If you look at the partnerships we've been driving, you know, we've on boarded Amazon rds onto our platform. We announced the tech preview of Azure Arc sequel database as a service on our platform as well. In addition, toe everything we're doing with open source. So the way that we're looking at this is you don't wanna make a bet on an edge appliance with one cloud provider. Because what happens if you have a business partner that says I am a line to Google or on the line to AWS? So I want to use this open source. Our philosophy is to virtualized the edge so that software can dictate, you know, organizations velocity at the end of the day. >>Yeah. So, Chris, you come on, you're you're an analyst at Gartner. You know us. Everything is a zero sum game, but it's but But life is not like that, right? I mean, there's so much of an incremental opportunity, especially at the edge. I mean, the numbers are mind boggling when when you look at it, >>I I agree wholeheartedly. And I think you're seeing a maturity in the vendor landscape to where we know we can't solve all the problems ourselves and nobody can. So we have to partner, and we have to to your earlier point on a P. I s. We have to build external interfaces in tow, our platforms to make it very easy for customers have choice around ice vendors, partners and so on. >>So, Chris, I gotta ask you since you run the advanced technology group in charge of what's going on there, will there be a ship and focus on mawr ships at the edge with that girl singer going over to intel? Um, good to see Oh, shit, so to speak. Um, all kidding aside, but, you know, patch leaving big news around bm where I saw some of your tweets and you laid out there was a nice tribute, pat, but that's gonna be cool. That's gonna be a didn't tell. Maybe it's more more advanced stuff there. >>Yeah, I think >>for people pats staying on the VMRO board and to me it's it's really think about it. I mean, Pat was part of the team that brought us the X 86 right and to come back to Intel as the CEO. It's really the perfect book end to his career. So we're really sad to see him go. Can't blame him. Of course it's it's a It's a nice chapter for Pat, so totally understand that. And we prior to pack going to Intel, we announced major partnerships within video last year, where we've been doing a lot of work with >>arm. So >>thio us again. We see all of this is opportunity, and a lot of the advanced development projects were running right now in the CTO office is about expanding that ecosystem in terms of how vendors can participate, whether you're running an application on arm, whether it's running on X 86 or whatever, it's running on what comes next, including a variety of hardware accelerators. >>So is it really? Is that really irrelevant to you? I mean, you heard John Rose talk about that because it's all containerized is it is. It is a technologies. Is it truly irrelevant? What processor is underneath? And what underlying hardware architectures there are? >>No, it's not. You know it's funny, right? Because we always want to say these things like, Well, it's just a commodity, but it's not. You didn't then be asking the hardware vendors Thio pack up their balls and go home because there's just nothing nothing left to do, and we're seeing actually quite the opposite where there's this emergence and variety of so many hardware accelerators. So even from an innovation perspective, for us. We're looking at ways to increase the velocity by which organizations can take advantage of these different specialized hardware components, because that's that's going to continue to be a race. But the real key is to make it seamless that an application could take advantage of these benefits without having to go out and buy all of this different hardware on a per application basis. >>But if you do make bets, you can optimize for that architecture, true or not, I mean, our estimate is that the you know the number of wafer is coming out of arm based, you know, platforms is 10 x x 86. And so it appears that, you know, from a cost standpoint, that's that's got some real hard decisions to make. Or maybe maybe they're easy decisions, I don't know. But so you have to make bets, Do you not as a technologist and try to optimize for one of those architectures, even though you have to hedge those bets? >>Yeah, >>we do. It really boils down to use cases and seeing, you know, what do you need for a particular use case like, you know, you mentioned arm, you know, There's a lot of arm out at the edge and on smaller form factor devices. Not so much in the traditional enterprise data center today. So our bets and a lot of the focus there has been on those types of devices. And again, it's it's really the It's about timing, right? The customer demand versus when we need to make a particular move from an innovation >>perspective. It's my final question for you as we wrap up our day here with Great Cuban Cloud Day. What is the most important stories in in the cloud tech world, edge and or cloud? And you think people should be paying attention to that will matter most of them over the next few years. >>Wow, that's a huge question. How much time do we have? Not not enough. A >>architect. Architectural things. They gotta focus on a lot of people looking at this cove it saying I got to come out with a growth strategy obvious and clear, obvious things to see Cloud >>Yeah, yeah, let me let me break it down this way. I think the most important thing that people have to focus on >>is deciding How >>do they when they build architectures. What does the reliance on cloud services Native Cloud Services so far more proprietary services versus open source technologies such as kubernetes and the SV ecosystem around kubernetes. You know, one is an investment in flexibility and control, lots of management and for your intellectual property, right where Maybe I'm building this application in the cloud today. But tomorrow I have to run it out at the edge. Or I do an acquisition that I just wasn't expecting, or I just simply don't know. Sure way. Sure hope that cova doesn't come around again or something like it, right as we get past this and navigate this today. But architect ng for the expectation of change is really important and having flexibility of round your intellectual property, including flexibility to be able to deploy and run on different clouds, especially as you build up your different partnerships. That's really key. So building a discipline to say you know what >>this is >>database as a service, it's never going to define who I am is a business. It's something I have to do is an I T organization. I'm consuming that from the cloud This part of the application sacked that defines who I am is a business. My active team is building this with kubernetes. And I'm gonna maintain more flexibility around that intellectual property. The strategic discipline to operate this way among many of >>enterprise customers >>just hasn't gotten there yet. But I think that's going to be a key inflection point as we start to see. You know, these hybrid architectures continue to mature. >>Hey, Chris. Great stuff, man. Really appreciate you coming on the cube and participate in the Cuban cloud. Thank you for your perspectives. >>Great. Thank you very much. Always a pleasure >>to see you. >>Thank you, everybody for watching this ends the Cuban Cloud Day. Volonte and John Furry. All these sessions gonna be available on demand. All the write ups will hit silicon angle calm. So check that out. We'll have links to this site up there and really appreciate you know, you attending our our first virtual editorial >>event again? >>There's day Volonte for John Ferrier in the entire Cube and Cuba and Cloud Team >>Q 3 65. Thanks >>for watching. Mhm

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube presenting Cuban cloud brought to you by Silicon Angle. Hi, I'm stupid, man. And welcome back to the Cube on Cloud. We're talking about developers. And while so many people remember the mean from 2010 of Steve Balmer jumping around on stage development developers and developers, uh, many people know what really important is really important about developers. They probably read the 2013 book called The New King Makers by Stephen O. Grady. And I'm really happy to welcome to the program. Rachel Stevens, who is an industry analyst with Red Monk who was co founded by the aforementioned Stephen O. Grady. Rachel, Great to see you. Thank you so much for joining us. >>Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here. >>Well, I've had the opportunity, Thio read some of what you've done. We've interacted on social media. We've got to talk events back when we used to do those in people. And >>I'm so >>glad that you get to come on the program especially. You were the ones I reached out. When we have this developer track, um, if you could just give our audience a little bit about your background. You know, that developer cred that you have Because as I joke, I've got a closet full of hoodies. But, you know, I'm an infrastructure guy by training I've been learning about, you know, containers and serverless and all this stuff for years. But I'm not myself much of developer. I've touched a thing or two in the years. >>Yeah. So happy to be here. Red Monk has been around since 2002 and have kind of been beating that developer drum ever since then, kind of as the company, The founder, Stephen James, notice that the decision making that developers was really a driver for what was actually ending up in the Enterprise. And as even more true, as cloud came onto, the scene is open source exploded, and I think it's become a lot more of a common view now. But in those early days, it was probably a little bit more of a controversial opinion, but I have been with the firm for coming up on five years now. My work is an industry analyst. We kind of help people understand, bottoms up technology, adoption trends, so that that's where I spend my time focusing is what's getting used in the enterprise. Why, what kind of trends are happening? So, yeah, that's where we all come from. That's the history of Red Monk in 30 seconds. >>Awesome. Rachel, you talk about the enterprise and developers For the longest time. I just said there was this huge gap you talk about. Bottoms up. It's like, well, developers use the tools that they want If they don't have to, they don't pay for anything. And the general I t. And the business sides of the house were like, I don't know, We don't know what those people in the corner we're doing, you know, it's important and things like that. But today it feels like that that's closed a bunch. Where are we? In your estimation, you know, our developers do they have a clear seat at the table? The title we have for this is whether the Enterprise Developer is its enterprise development oxymoron. In 2020 and 2021 >>I think enterprise developers have a lot more practical authority than people give them credit for, especially if you're kind of looking at that old view of the world where everything is driven by a buyer decision or kind of this top down purchasing motion. And we've really seen that authority of what is getting used and why change a lot in the last year. In the last decade, even more of people who are able to choose the tools that meet the job bring in tools, regardless of whether they maybe have that official approval through the right channels because of the convenience of trying to get things up and running. We are asking developers to do so much right now and to go faster and thio shifting things left. And so the things that they are responsible for incorporating into the way they are building APS is growing. And so, as we are asking developers to do more and to do more quickly, um, the tools that they need to do those, um, tasks to get these APS built is that the decision making us fall into them? This is what I need. This is what needs to come in, and so we're seeing. Basically, the tools that enterprise is air using are the tools that developers want to be using, and they kind of just find their way into the enterprise. >>Now I want to key off what you were talking about. Just developers were being asked to do Mawr and Mawr. We've seen these pendulum swings in technology. There was a time where it was like, Well, I'll outsource it because that'll be easier and maybe it'll be less expensive. And number one we found it necessarily. It wasn't necessarily cheaper. And number two, I couldn't make changes, and I didn't understand what was happening. So when when I talked to Enterprises today, absolutely. I need to have skills that's internally. I need to be able to respond to things fast, and therefore I need skills that I need people that can build what they have. What what do you see? What are those skill sets that are so important today? Uh, you know, we've talked so many times over the years is to you know, there's there's the skills gap. We don't have enough data scientists. We don't have enough developers way. We don't have any of these things. So what do we have and where things trending? >>Yeah, it's It's one of those things for developers where they both have probably the most full tool set that we've seen in this industry in terms of things that are available to them. But it's also really hard because it also indicates that there is just this fragmentation at every level of the stack. And there's this explosion of choice and decisions that is happening up and down the stack of how are we going to build things? And so it's really tricky to be a developer these days and that you are making a lot of decisions and you are wiring a lot of things together and you have to be able to navigate a lot of things. E think. One of the things that is interesting here is that we have seen the phrase like Full stack developer really carried a lot of panache, maybe earlier this decade and has kind of fallen away. Just because we've realized that it's impossible for anybody to be ableto spanned this whole broad spectrum of all of the things we're asking people to dio. So we're seeing this explosion of choice, which is meaning that there is a little bit more focused and where developers are trying to actually figure out what is my niche. What is it that I'm supposed to focus on. And so it's really just this balancing of act of trying to see this big picture of how to get this all put together and also have this focused area realizing that you have to specialize at some point. >>Rachel is such a great point there. We've actually seen that Cambrian explosion of developer tools that are out there. If you go to the CFCF landscape and look at everything out there or goto any of your public cloud providers, there's no way that anybody even working for those companies no good portion of the tools that are out there so nobody could be a master of everything. How about from a cloud standpoint, you know, there is the discussion of, you know what do I shift? Left What? You know, Can I just say, Okay, this piece of it, it could be a manage service. I don't need to think about it versus what skills that I need to have in house. What is it that's important. And obviously, you know, a zoo analyst. We know it varies greatly across companies, but you know what? What are some of those top things that we need to make sure that enterprises have skill set and the tools in house that they should understand. And what can they push off to their platform of choice? >>Yeah, I think your comment about managed services is really pressing because one of the trends that we're watching closely, it's just this rise of manage services. And it kind of ties back into the concept you had before about like, what an I team. That's they have, like the Nicholas Carr. I t doesn't matter, and we're pushing this all the way. And then we realized, Oh, we've got to bring that all back. Um, but we also realize that we really want as enterprises want to be spending our time doing differentiated work and wiring together, your entire infrastructure isn't necessarily differentiated for a lot of companies. And so it's trying to find this mix of where can I push my abstraction higher or to find a manage service that can do something for me? And we're seeing that happen in all levels of the stack. And so what we're seeing is this rise of composite APS where we're going to say, Okay, I'm gonna pull in back end AP ice from a whole bunch of tools like twilio or stripe or all zero where algo Leah, all of those things are great tools that I can incorporate into my app. And I can have this great user, um, interface that I can use. And then I don't have to worry quite so much about building it all myself. But I am responsible for wiring at all together. So I think it's that wire together set of interest that is happening for developers as the tool set that they are spending a lot of time with. So we see the manage services being important. Um played an important role in how absent composed, and it's the composition of that APs that is happening internally. >>What one of the one of the regular research items that I see a red monk is you know what languages you know. Where are the trends going? There's been relative stability, but then something's changed. You know, I look at the tools that you mentioned Full stack developer. I talked to a full stack developer a couple of years ago, and he's like like like terror form is my life and I love everything and I've used it forever. And that was 18 months, Andi. I kind of laugh because it's like, OK, I managed. I measure a lot of the technology that I used in the decades. Um, not that await. This came out six months ago and it's kind of mature. And of course, you know, C I C d. Come on. If it's six weeks old, it's probably gone through a lot of generations. So what do you see? Do you have any research that you can share as to looking forward? What are the You know what the skill sets we need? How should we be training our force? What do >>we need to >>be looking at in this kind of next decade of cloud? >>Yeah. So when when you spoke about languages, we dio a semi annual review of language usage as a sign on get hub and in discussion as seen on stack overflow, which we fully recognize is not a perfect representation of how these languages are used in the broader world. But those air data sets that we have access to that are relatively large and open eso just before anyone writes me angry letters that that's not the way that we should be doing it, Um, but one of the things that we've seen over time is that there is a lot of relative stability in those top tier languages in terms of how they are used, and there's some movement at the bottom. But the trends we're seeing where the languages are moving is type safety and having a safer language and the communities that are building upon other communities. So things like, um, we're seeing Scotland that is able to kind of piggyback off of being a jvm based language and having that support from Google. Or we're seeing typescript where it can piggyback off of the breath of deployment of JavaScript, things like that. So those things where were combining together multiple trends that developers are interested in the same time combined with an ecosystem that's already rich and full. And so we're seeing that there's definitely still movement in languages that people are interested in, but also, language on its own is probably pretty stable. So, like as you start to make language choices as a developer, that's not where we're seeing a ton of like turnover language frameworks on the other hand, like if you're a JavaScript developer and all of a sudden there's just explosion of frameworks that you need to choose from, that may be a different story, a lot more turnover there and harder to predict. But language trends are a little bit more stable over >>time, changing over time. You know, Boy, I I got to dig into, you know, relatively Recently I went down like the jam stack. Uh, ecosystem. I've been digging into a serverless for a number of years. What's your take on that? There's certain people. I talked to him. They're like, I don't even need to be a code. Or I could be a marketing person. And I can get things done when I talked to some developers there like a citizen developers. They're not developers. Come on, you know, I really need to be able to do this, so I'll give you your choices, toe. You know, serverless and some of these trends to kind of ext fan. You know who can you know? Code and development. >>Yeah. So for both translate jam stack and serve Ellis, One of the things that we see kind of early in the iteration of a technology is that it is definitely not going to be the right tool for every app. And the number of APS that they approach will fit for will grow as the tool develops. And you add more functionality over time and all of these platforms expand the capability, but definitely not the correct tool choice in every case. That said, we do watch both of those areas with extreme interest in terms of what this next generation of APS can look like and probably will look like in a lot of cases. And I think that it is super interesting to think about who gets to build these APs, because I e. I think one of the things that we probably haven't landed on the right language yet is what that what we should call these people because I don't think anyone associates themselves as a low code person. Like if you're someone from marketing and all of a sudden you can build something technical, that's really cool, and you're excited about that. Nobody else on your team could build. You're not walking around saying I am a low code marketing person like that, that that's that's that's demeaning. Like you're like. No, I'm technical. I'm a technical market, or look what I just did. And if you're someone who codes professionally for a living like and you use a low code tool to get something out the door quickly and >>you don't >>wanna demean and said, Oh, that was I did a low code that just like everybody, is just trying to solve problems. And everybody, um, is trying to figure out how to do things in the most effective way possible and making trade offs all the time. And so I don't think that the language of low code really is anything that resonates with any of the actual users of low code tools. And so I think that's something that we as an industry need toe work on finding the correct language because it doesn't feel like we've landed there yet. >>Yeah, Rachel, what? Want to get your take on just careers for developers now to think about in 2020 everyone is distributed. Lots of conversations about where we work. Can we bring the remote? Many of the developers I talked to already were remote. I had the chance that interview that the head of remote. Forget lab. They're over 1000 people and they're fully remote. So, you know, remote. Absolutely a thing for developers. But if you talk about careers, it is no longer, you know. Oh, hey, here's my CV. It's I'm on git Hub. You can see the code I've done. We haven't talked about open source yet, so give us your take on kind of developers today. Career paths. Andi. Kind of the the online community there. >>Yeah, this could be a whole own conversation. We'll try to figure out my points. Um, so I think one of the things that we are trying to figure out in terms of balance is how much are we expecting people to have done on the side? It's like a side project Hustle versus doing, exclusively getting your job done and not worrying too much about how many green squares you have on your get hub profile. And I think it's a really emotional and fraught discussion and a lot of quarters because it can be exclusionary for people saying that you you need to be spending your time on the side working on this open source project because there are people who have very different life circumstances, like if you're someone who already has kids or you're doing elder care or you are working another job and trying to transition into becoming a developer, it's a lot to ask. These people toe also have a side hustle. That said, it is probably working on open source, having an understanding of how tools are done. Having this, um, this experience and skills that you can point to and contributions you can point Teoh is probably one of the cleaner ways that you can start to move in the industry and break through to the industry because you can show your skills two other employers you can kind of maybe make your way in is a junior developer because you worked on a project and you make those connections. And so it's really still again. It's one of those balancing act things where there's not a perfect answer because there really is to correct sides of this argument. And both of those things are true. At the same time where it's it's hard to figure out what that early career path maybe looks like, or even advancing in a career path If you're already a developer, it's It's tricky. >>Well, I want to get your take on something to you know, I think back to you know, I go back a decade or two I started working with about 20 years ago. Back in the crazy days were just Colonel Daughter Warg and, you know, patches everywhere and lots of different companies trying to figure out what they would be doing on most of the people contributing to the free software before we're calling it open source. Most of the time, it was their side Hustle was the thing they're doing. What was their passion? Project? I've seen some research in the last year or so that says the majority of people that are contributing to open source are doing it for their day job. Obviously, there's a lot of big companies. There's plenty of small companies. When I goto the Linux Foundation shows. I mean, you've got whole companies that are you know, that that's their whole business. So I want to get your take on, you know, you know, governance, you know, contribution from the individual versus companies. You know, there's a lot of change going on there. The public cloud their impact on what's happening open source. What are you seeing there? And you know what's good? What's bad? What do we need to do better as a community? >>Yeah. E think the governance of open source projects is definitely a live conversation that we're having right now about what does this need to look like? What role do companies need to be having and how things are put together is a contribution or leadership position in the name of the individual or the name of the company. Like all of these air live conversations that are ongoing and a lot of communities e think one of the things that is interesting overall, though, is just watching if you're if you're taking a really zoomed out view of what open source looks like where it was at one point, um, deemed a cancer by one of the vendors in the space, and now it is something that is just absolutely an inherent part of most well tech vendors and and users is an important part of how they are building and using software today, like open source is really an integral tool. And what is happening in the enterprise and what's being built in the enterprise. And so I think that it is a natural thing that this conversation is evolving in terms of what is the enterprises role here and how are we supposed to govern for that? And e don't think that we have landed on all the correct answers yet. But I think that just looking at that long view, it makes sense that this is an area where we are spending some time focusing >>So Rachel without giving away state secrets. We know read Monk, you do lots of consulting out there. What advice do you give to the industry? We said we're making progress. There's good things there. But if we say okay, I wanna at 2030 look back and say, Boy, this is wonderful for developers. You know, everything is going good. What things have we done along the way? Where have we made progress? >>Yeah, I think I think it kind of ties back to the earlier discussion we were having around composite APS and thinking about what that developer experience looks like. I think that right now it is incredibly difficult for developers to be wiring everything together and There's just so much for developers to dio to actually get all of these APs from source to production. So when we talk with our customers, a lot of our time is spent thinking, How can you not only solve this individual piece of the puzzle, but how can you figure out how to fit it into this broader picture of what it is the developers air trying to accomplish? How can you think about where your ATF, It's not on your tool or you your project? Whatever it is that you are working on, how does this fit? Not only in terms of your one unique problem space, but where does this problem space fit in the broader landscape? Because I think that's going to be a really key element of what the developer experience looks like in the next decade. Is trying to help people actually get everything wired together in a coherent way. >>Rachel. No shortage of work to do there really appreciate you joining us. Thrilled to have you finally as a cube. Alumni. Thanks so much for joining. >>Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. >>All right. Thank you for joining us. This is the developer content for the cube on cloud, I'm stew minimum, and as always, thank you for watching the Cube.

>> Announcer: From around the globe, it's theCUBE, covering Space and Cybersecurity Symposium 2020, hosted by Cal Poly. >> Everyone, welcome to this special presentation with Cal Poly hosting the Space and Cybersecurity Symposium 2020 virtual. I'm John Furrier, your host with theCUBE and SiliconANGLE here in our Palo Alto studios with our remote guests. We couldn't be there in person, but we're going to be here remote. We got a great session and a panel for one hour, topic preparing students for the jobs of today and tomorrow. Got a great lineup. Bill Britton, Lieutenant Colonel from the US Air Force, retired vice president for information technology and CIO and the director of the California Cybersecurity Institute for Cal Poly. Bill, thanks for joining us. Dr. Amy Fleischer, who's the dean of the College of Engineering at Cal Poly, and Trung Pham, professor and researcher at the US Air Force Academy. Folks, thanks for joining me today. >> Our pleasure. >> Got a great- >> Great to be here. >> Great panel. This is one of my favorite topics. >> Thank you for the opportunity. >> Preparing students for the next generation, the jobs for today and tomorrow. We got an hour. I'd love you guys to start with an opening statement to kick things off. Bill, we'll start with you. >> Well, I'm really pleased to be, to start on this as the director for the Cybersecurity Institute and the CIO at Cal Poly, it's really a fun, exciting job, because as a polytechnic, technology has such a forefront in what we're doing, and we've had a wonderful opportunity being 40 miles from Vandenberg Air Force Base to really look at the nexus of space and cybersecurity. And if you add into that both commercial, government, and civil space and cybersecurity, this is an expanding wide open time for cyber and space. In that role that we have with the Cybersecurity Institute, we partner with elements of the state and the university, and we try to really add value above our academic level, which is some of the highest in the nation, and to really merge down and go a little lower and start younger. So we actually are running the week prior to this showing a cybersecurity competition for high schools and middle schools in the state of California. That competition this year is based on a scenario around hacking of a commercial satellite and the forensics of the payload that was hacked and the networks associated with it. This is going to be done using products like Wireshark, Autopsy, and other tools that will give those high school students what we hope is a huge desire to follow up and go into cyber and cyberspace and space and follow that career path and either come to Cal Poly or some other institution that's going to let them really expand their horizons in cybersecurity and space for the future of our nation. >> Bill, thanks for that intro. By the way, I just want to give you props for an amazing team and job you guys are doing at Cal Poly, the DxHub and the efforts you guys are having with your challenge. Congratulations on that great work. >> Thank you. It's a rock star team. It's absolutely amazing to find that much talent at one location. And I think Amy's going to tell you, she's got the same amount of talent in her staff, so it's a great place to be. >> Dr. Amy Fleischer. You guys have a great organization down there, amazing curriculum, amazing people, great community. Your opening statement. >> Hello everybody. It's really great to be a part of this panel on behalf of the Cal Poly College of Engineering. Here at Cal Poly, we really take preparing students for the jobs of today and tomorrow completely seriously, and we can claim that our students really graduate so they're ready day one for their first real job. But that means that in getting them to that point, we have to help them get valuable and meaningful job experience before they graduate, both through our curriculum and through multiple internship or summer research opportunities. So we focus our curriculum on what we call a learn by doing philosophy. And this means that we have a combination of practical experience and learn by doing both in and out of the classroom. And we find that to be really critical for preparing students for the workforce. Here at Cal Poly, we have more than 6,000 engineering students. We're one of the largest undergraduate engineering schools in the country. And US News ranks us the eighth best undergraduate engineering program in the country and the top ranked state school. We're really, really proud that we offer this impactful hands-on engineering education that really exceeds that of virtually all private universities while reaching a wider audience of students. We offer 14 degree programs, and really, we're talking today about cyber and space, and I think most of those degree programs can really make an impact in the space and cybersecurity economy. And this includes not only things like aero and cyber directly, but also electrical engineering, mechanical engineering, computer engineering, materials engineering, even manufacturing, civil, and biomedical engineering, as there's a lot of infrastructure needs that go into supporting launch capabilities. Our aerospace program graduates hundreds of aerospace engineers and most of them are working right here in California with many of our corporate partners, including Northrop Grumman, Lockheed, Boeing, Raytheon, SpaceX, Virgin Galactic, JPL, and so many other places where we have Cal Poly engineers impacting the space economy. Our cybersecurity focus is found mainly in our computer science and software engineering programs, and it's really a rapidly growing interest among our students. Computer science is our most popular major, and industry interests and partnerships are integrated into our cyber curriculum, and we do that oftentimes through support from industry. So we have partnerships with Northrop Grumman for professorship in a cyber lab and from PG&E for critical infrastructure cybersecurity lab and professorship. And we think that industry partnerships like these are really critical to preparing students for the future as the field is evolving so quickly and making sure we adapt our facilities and our curriculum to stay in line with what we're seeing in industry is incredibly important. In our aerospace program, we have an educational partnership with the Air Force Research Labs that's allowing us to install new high-performance computing capabilities and a space environments lab that's going to enhance our satellite design capabilities. And if we talk about satellite design, Cal Poly is the founding home of the CubeSat program, which pioneered small satellite capabilities, And we remain the worldwide leader in maintaining the CubeSat standard, and our student program has launched more CubeSats than any other program. So here again we have this learn by doing experience every year for dozens of aerospace, electrical, computer science, mechanical engineering students, and other student activities that we think are just as important include ethical hacking through our white hat club, Cal Poly Space Systems, which does really, really big rocket launches, and our support program for women in both of these fields, like WISH, which is Women In Software and Hardware. Now, you know, really trying to bring in a wide variety of people into these fields is incredibly important, and outreach and support to those demographics traditionally underrepresented in these fields is going to be really critical to future success. So by drawing on the lived experiences by people with different types of backgrounds will we develop the type of culture and environment where all of us can get to the best solution. So in terms of bringing people into the field, we see that research shows we need to reach kids when they're in late elementary and middle schools to really overcome that cultural bias that works against diversity in our fields. And you heard Bill talking about the California Cybersecurity Institute's yearly cyber challenge, and there's a lot of other people who are working to bring in a wider variety of people into the field, like Girl Scouts, which has introduced dozens of new badges over the past few years, including a whole cybersecurity series of badges in concert with Palo Alto Networks. So we have our work cut out for us, but we know what we need to do, and if we're really committed to properly preparing the workforce for today and tomorrow, I think our future is going to be bright. I'm looking forward to our discussion today. >> Thank you, Dr. Fleischer, for a great comment, opening statement, and congratulations. You got the right formula down there, the right mindset, and you got a lot of talent, and community, as well. Thank you for that opening statement. Next up, from Colorado Springs, Trung Pham, who's a professor and researcher at the US Air Force Academy. He's doing a lot of research around the areas that are most important for the intersection of space and technology. Trung. >> Good afternoon. First I'd like to thank Cal Poly for the opportunity. And today I want to go briefly about cybersecurity in space application. Whenever we talk about cybersecurity, the impression is that it's a new field that is really highly complex involving a lot of technical area. But in reality, in my personal opinion, it is indeed a complex field because it involves many disciplines. The first thing we think about is computer engineering and computer networking, but it's also involving communication, sociology, law practice. And this practice of cybersecurity doesn't only involve computer expert, but it's also involve everybody else who has a computing device that is connected to the internet, and this participation is obviously everybody in today's environment. When we think about the internet, we know that it's a good source of information but come with the convenience of information that we can access, we are constantly facing danger from the internet. Some of them we might be aware of. Some of them we might not be aware of. For example, when we search on the internet, a lot of time our browser will be saying that this site is not trusted, so we will be more careful. But what about the sites that we trusted? We know that those are legitimate sites, but they're not 100% bulletproof. What happen if those site are attacked by a hacker and then they will be a silent source of danger that we might not be aware of. So in the reality, we need to be more practicing the cybersecurity from our civil point of view and not from a technical point of view. When we talk about space application, we should know that all the hardware are computer-based or controlled by by computer system, and therefore the hardware and the software must go through some certification process so that they can be rated as airworthy or flightworthy. When we know that in the certification process is focusing on the functionality of the hardware and software, but one aspect that is explicitly and implicitly required is the security of those components. And we know that those components have to be connected with the ground control station, and the communication is through the air, through the radio signal, so anybody who has access to those communication radio signal will be able to control the space system that we put up there. And we certainly do not want our system to be hijacked by a third party. Another aspect of cybersecurity is that we try to design the space system in a very strong manner so it's almost impossible to hack in. But what about some other weak system that might be connected to the strong system? For example, the space system will be connected to the ground control station, and on the ground control station, we have the human controller, and those people have cell phone. They are allowed to use cell phone for communication. But at the same time, they are connected to the internet through the cell phone, and their cell phone might be connected to the computer that control the flight software and hardware. So what I want to say is we try to build strong system and we've protected them, but there will be some weaker system that we could not intended but exists to be connected to our strong system, and those are the points the hacker will be trying to attack. If we know how to control the access to those weak points, we will be having a much better system for the space system. And when we see the cybersecurity that is requiring the participation everywhere it's important to notice that there is a source of opportunity for students who enter the workforce to consider. Obviously students in engineering can focus their knowledge and expertise to provide technological solution to protect the system that we view. But we also have students in business who can focus their expertise to write business plan so that they can provide a pathway for the engineering advances to reach the market. We also have student in law who can focus their expertise in policy governing the internet, governing the cybersecurity practice. And we also have student in education who can focus their expertise to design how to teach cybersecurity practice, and student in every other discipline can focus their effort to implement security measure to protect the system that they are using in their field. So it's obvious that cybersecurity is everywhere and it implies job opportunity everywhere for everybody in every discipline of study. Thank you. >> Thank you, Trung, for those great comments. Great technology opportunities. But interesting, as well, is the theme that we're seeing across the entire symposium and in the virtual hallways that we're hearing conversations, and you pointed out some of them. Dr. Fleischer did, as well. And Bill, you mentioned it. It's not one thing. It's not just technology. It's different skills. And Amy, you mentioned that computer science is the hottest degree, but you have the hottest aerospace program in the world. I mean, so all this is kind of balancing. It's interdisciplinary. It's a structural change. Before we get into some of the, how they prepare the students, can you guys talk about some of the structural changes that are modern now in preparing in these opportunities, because societal impact is a, law potentially impact, it's how we educate. There's now cross-discipline skill sets. It's not just get the degree, see you out in the field. Bill, you want to start? >> Well, what's really fun about this job is that in the Air Force, I worked in the space and missile business, and what we saw was a heavy reliance on checklist format, security procedures, analog systems, and what we're seeing now in our world, both in the government and the commercial side, is a move to a digital environment, and the digital environment is a very quick and adaptive environment, and it's going to require a digital understanding. Matter of fact, the undersecretary of Air Force for acquisition recently referenced the need to understand the digital environment and how that's affecting acquisition. So as both Amy and Trung said, even business students are now in the cybersecurity business. And so again, what we're seeing is the change. Now, another phenomenon that we're seeing in the space world is there's just so much data. One of the ways that we addressed that in the past was to look at high-performance computing. There was a lot stricter control over how that worked. But now what we're seeing is adaptation of cloud, cloud technologies in space support, space data, command and control. And so what we see is a modern space engineer who has to understand digital, has to understand cloud, and has to understand the context of all those with a cyber environment. That's really changing the forefront of what is a space engineer, what is a digital engineer, and what is a future engineer, both commercial or government. So I think the opportunity for all of these things is really good, particularly for a polytechnic, Air Force Academy, and others that are focusing on a more widened experiential level of cloud and engineering and other capabilities. And I'll tell you the part that as the CIO I have to remind everybody, all this stuff works with the IT stuff. So you've got to understand how your IT infrastructures are tied and working together. As we noted earlier, one of the things is that these are all relays from point to point, and that architecture is part of your cybersecurity architecture. So again, every component has now become a cyber aware, cyber knowledgeable, and what we like to call as a cyber cognizant citizen where they have to understand the context. (speaking on mute) >> (indistinct) software Dr. Fleischer, talk about your perspective, 'cause you mentioned some of the things about computer science. I remember in the '80s when I got my computer science degree, they called us software engineers and then you became software developers. And then, so again, engineering is the theme. If you're engineering a system, there's now software involved, and there's also business engineering, business models. So talk about some of your comments, 'cause you mentioned computer science is hot. You got the aerospace. You got these multi-disciplines. You got definitely diversity, as well, brings more perspectives in, as well. Your thoughts on these structural interdisciplinary things? >> I think this is really key to making sure that students are prepared to work in the workforce is looking at the blurring between fields. No longer are you just a computer scientist. No longer are you just an aerospace engineer. You really have to have an expertise where you can work with people across disciplines. All of these fields are just working with each other in ways we haven't seen before. And Bill brought up data. You know, data science is something that's cross-cutting across all of our fields. So we want engineers that have the disciplinary expertise that they can go deep into these fields, but we want them to be able to communicate with each other and to be able to communicate across disciplines and to be able to work in teams that are across disciplines. You can no longer just work with other computer scientists or just work with other aerospace engineers. There's no part of engineering that is siloed anymore. So that's how we're changing. You have to be able to work across those disciplines. And as you, as Trung pointed out, ethics has to come into this. So you can no longer try to fully separate what we would traditionally have called the liberal arts and say, well, that's over there in general education. No, ethics is an important part of what we're doing and how we integrate that into our curriculum. So is communication. So is working on public policy and seeing where all these different aspects tie together to make the impact that we want to have in the world. So you no longer can work solo in these fields. >> That's great point. And Bill also mentioned the cloud. One thing about the cloud that's showed us is horizontal scalability has created a lot of value, and certainly data is now horizontal. Trung, you mentioned some of the things about cryptography for the kids out there, I mean, you can look at the pathway for career. You can do a lot of tech, but you don't have to go deep sometimes. You can as deep as you want, but there's so much more there. What technology do you see that's going to help students, in your opinion? >> Well, I'm a professor in computer science, so I like to talk a little bit about computer programming. Now we are working in complex projects. So most of the time we don't design a system from scratch. We build it from different components, and the components that we have, either we get it from vendors or sometimes we get it from the internet in the open source environment. It's fun to get the source code and then make it work to our own application. So now when we are looking at cryptology, when we talk about encryption, for example, we can easily get the source code from the internet. And the question, is it safe to use those source code? And my question is maybe not. So I always encourage my students to learn how to write source code the traditional way that I learned a long time ago before I allow them to use the open source environment. And one of the things that they have to be careful especially with encryption is the code that might be hidden in the source that they downloaded. Some of the source might be harmful. It might open up back gate for a hacker to get in later. We've heard about these back gates back then when Microsoft designed the operating system with the protection of encryption, and it is true that is existing. So while open source code is a wonderful place to develop complex system, but it's also a dangerous place that we have to be aware of. >> Great point. Before we get into the comments, one quick thing for each of you I'd like to get your comments on. There's been a big movement on growth mindset, which has been a great big believer in having a growth mindset and learning and all that good stuff. But now when you talk about some of these things we're mentioning about systems, there's a new trend around a systems mindset, because if everything's now a system, distributed systems now you have space and cybersecurity, you have to understand the consequences of changes. And you mention some of that, Trung, in changes in the source code. Could you guys share your quick opinions on the of systems thinking? Is that a mindset that people should be looking at? Because it used to be just one thing. Oh, you're a systems guy or gal. There you go. You're done. Now it seems to be in social media and data, everything seems to be systems. What's your take? Dr. Fleischer, we'll start with you. >> I'd say it's another way of looking at not being just so deep in your discipline. You have to understand what the impact of the decisions that you're making have on a much broader system. And so I think it's important for all of our students to get some exposure to that systems level thinking and looking at the greater impact of the decision that they're making. Now, the issue is where do you set the systems boundary, right? And you can set the systems boundary very close in and concentrate on an aspect of a design, or you can continually move that system boundary out and see where do you hit the intersections of engineering and science along with ethics and public policy and the greater society. And I think that's where some of the interesting work is going to be. And I think at least exposing students and letting them know that they're going to have to make some of these considerations as they move throughout their career is going to be vital as we move into the future. >> Bill, what's your thoughts? >> I absolutely agree with Amy. And I think there's a context here that reverse engineering and forensics analysis and forensics engineering are becoming more critical than ever. The ability to look at what you have designed in a system and then tear it apart and look at it for gaps and holes and problem sets. Or when you're given some software that's already been pre-developed, checking it to make sure it is really going to do what it says it's going to do. That forensics ability becomes more and more a skillset that also you need the verbal skills to explain what it is you're doing and what you found. So the communication side, the systems analysis side, the forensics analysis side, these are all things that are part of system approach that I think you could spend hours on and we still haven't really done a great job on it. So it's one of my fortes is really the whole analysis side of forensics and reverse engineering. >> Trung, real quick, systems thinking, your thoughts. >> Well, I'd like to share with you my experience when I worked in the space station program at NASA. We had two different approaches. One is a compound approach where we design it from the system general point of view where we put components together to be a complex system. But at the same time, we have the (indistinct) approach where we have an engineer who spent time and effort building individual component and they have to be expert in those tiny component that general component they deliver. And in the space station program, we bring together the (indistinct) engineer who designed everything in detail and the system manager who managed the system design from the top down, and we meet in the middle, and together we compromised a lot of differences and we delivered the space station that we are operating today. >> Great insight. And that's the whole teamwork collaboration that Dr. Fleischer was mentioning. Thanks so much for that insight. I wanted to get that out there because I know myself as a parent, I'm always trying to think about what's best for my kids and their friends as they grow up into the workforce. I know educators and leaders in industry would love to know some of the best practices around some of the structural changes. So thanks for that insight. But this topic's about students and helping them prepare. So we heard be multiple discipline, broaden your horizons, think like systems, top down, bottom up, work together as a team, and follow the data. So I got to ask you guys, there's a huge amount of job openings in cybersecurity. It's well-documented. And certainly with the intersection of space and cyber, it's only going to get bigger, right? You're going to see more and more demand for new types of jobs. How do we get high school and college students interested in security as a career? Dr. Fleischer, we'll start with you on this one. I would say really one of the best ways to get students interested in a career is to show them the impact that it's going to have. There's definitely always going to be students who are going to want to do the technology for the technology's sake, but that will limit you to a narrow set of students, and by showing the greater impact that these types of careers are going to have on the types of problems that you're going to be able to solve and the impact you're going to be able to have on the world around you, that's the word that we really need to get out. And a wide variety of students really respond to these messages. So I think it's really kind of reaching out at the elementary, the middle school level, and really kind of getting this idea that you can make a big difference, a big positive difference in the field with some of these careers, is going to be really critical. >> Real question to follow up. What do you think is the best entry point? You mentioned middle. I didn't hear elementary school. There's a lot of discussions around pipelining, and we're going to get into women in tech and underrepresented minorities later. But is it too early, or what's your feeling on this? >> My feeling is the earlier we can normalize it, the better. If you can normalize an interest in computers and technology and building in elementary school, that's absolutely critical. But the drop-off point that we're seeing is between what I would call late elementary and early middle school. And just kind of as an anecdote, I for years ran an outreach program for Girl Scouts in grades four and five and grade six, seven, and eight. And we had 100 slots in each program. And every year the program would sell out for girls in grades four and five, and every year we'd have spots remaining in grades six, seven, and eight. And that's literally where the drop-off is occurring between that late elementary and that middle school range. So that's the area that we need to target to make sure we keep those young women involved and interested as we move forward. >> Bill, how are we going to get these kids interested in security? You mentioned a few programs you got. >> Yeah. >> I mean, who wouldn't want to be a white hat hacker? I mean, that sounds exciting. >> So yeah, great questions. Let's start with some basic principles, though, is let me ask you a question, John. Name for me one white hat, good person hacker, the name, who works in the space industry and is an exemplar for students to look up to. >> You? >> Oh man, I'm feeling really... >> I'm only, I can't imagine a figure- >> (indistinct) the answer because the answer we normally get is the cricket sound. So we don't have individuals we've identified in those areas for them to look up to. >> I was going to be snarky and say most white hackers won't even use their real name, but... >> Right, so there's an aura around their anonymity here. So again, the real question is how do we get them engaged and keep them engaged? And that's what Amy was pointing out to exactly, the engagement and sticking with it. So one of the things that we're trying to do through our competition on the state level and other elements is providing connections. We call them ambassadors. These are people in the business who can contact the students that are in the game or in that challenge environment and let 'em interact and let 'em talk about what they do and what they're doing in life. But give them a challenging game format. A lot of computer-based training, capture the flag stuff is great, but if you can make it hands-on, if you can make it a learn by doing experiment, if you can make it personally involved and see the benefit as a result of doing that challenge and then talk to the people who do that on a daily basis, that's how you get them involved. The second part is part of what we're doing is we're involving partnership companies in the development of the teams. So this year's competition that we're running has 82 teams from across the state of California. Of those 82 teams at six students a team, middle school, high school, and many of those have company partners, and these are practitioners in cybersecurity who are working with those students to participate. It's that adult connectivity. It's that visualization. So at the competition this year, we have the founder of Defcon Red Flag is a participant to talk to the students. We have Vint Cerf, who is, of course, very well-known for something called the internet, to participate. It's really getting the students to understand who's in this, who can I look up to, and how do I stay engaged with them? >> There's definitely a celebrity aspect of it, I will agree. I mean, the influencer aspect here with knowledge is key. Can you talk about these ambassadors, and how far along are you on that program? First of all, the challenge stuff is, anything gamification-wise, we've seen that with hackathons, it just really works well. Creates bonding. People who create together can get sticky and get very high community aspect to it. Talk about this ambassador thing. What is that, industry, is that academic? >> Yeah, absolutely. >> What is this ambassador thing? >> Industry partners that we've identified, some of which, and I won't hit all of 'em, so I'm sure I'll short change this, but Palo Alto, Cisco, Splunk, many of the companies in California, and what we've done is identified schools to participate in the challenge that may not have a strong STEM program or have any cyber program. And the idea of the company is they look for their employees who are in those school districts to partner with the schools to help provide outreach. It could be as simple as a couple hours a week, or it's a team support captain or it's providing computers and other devices to use. And so again, it's really about a constant connectivity and trying to help where some schools may not have the staff or support units in an area to really provide them what they need for connectivity. What that does is it gives us an opportunity to not just focus on it once a year, but throughout the year. So for the competition, all the teams that are participating have been receiving training and educational opportunities in the gamification side since they signed up to participate. So there's a website, there's learning materials, there's materials provided by certain vendor companies like Wireshark and others. So it's a continuum of opportunity for the students. >> You know, I've seen, just randomly, just got a random thought. Robotics clubs are moving then closer into that middle school area, Dr. Fleischer, and in certainly in high schools, it's almost like a varsity sport. E-sports is another one. My son just called me. "I made the JV at the college team." It's big and serious, right? And it's fun. This is the aspect of fun. It's hands-on. This is part of the culture down there. Learn by doing. Is there, like, a group? Is it, like, a club? I mean, how do you guys organize these bottoms-up organically interest topics? >> So here in the college of engineering, when we talk about learn by doing, we have learned by doing both in the classroom and out of the classroom. And if we look at these types of out of the classroom activities, we have over 80 clubs working on all different aspects, and many of these are bottom-up. The students have decided what they want to work on and have organized themselves around that. And then they get the leadership opportunities. The more experienced students train the less experienced students. And it continues to build from year after year after year with them even doing aspects of strategic planning from year to year for some of these competitions. Yeah, it's an absolutely great experience. And we don't define for them how their learn by doing experiences should be. We want them to define it. And I think the really cool thing about that is they have the ownership and they have the interest and they can come up with new clubs year after year to see which direction they want to take it, and we will help support those clubs as old clubs fade out and new clubs come in. >> Trung, real quick, before we go on the next talk track, what do you recommend for middle school, high school, or even elementary? A little bit of coding, Minecraft? I mean, how do you get 'em hooked on the fun and the dopamine of technology and cybersecurity? What's your take on that? >> On this aspect, I'd like to share with you my experience as a junior high and high school student in Texas. The university of Texas in Austin organized a competition for every high school in Texas in every field from poetry to mathematics to science, computer engineering. But it's not about the University of Texas. The University of Texas is only serving as a center for the final competition. They divide the competition to district and then regional and then state. At each level, we have local university and colleges volunteering to host the competition and make it fun for the student to participate. And also they connected the students with private enterprises to raise fund for scholarship. So student who see the competition is a fun event for them, they get exposed to different university hosting the event so that they can see different option for them to consider college. They also get a promise that if they participate, they will be considered for scholarship when they attend university and college. So I think the combination of fun and competition and the scholarship aspect will be a good thing to entice the student to commit to the area of cybersecurity. >> Got the engagement, the aspiration, scholarship, and you mentioned a volunteer. I think one of the things I'll observe is you guys are kind of hitting this as community. I mean, the story of Steve Jobs and Woz building the Mac, they called Bill Hewlett up in Palo Alto. He was in the phone book. And they scoured some parts from him. That's community. This is kind of what you're getting at. So this is kind of the formula we're seeing. So the next question I really want to get into is the women in technology, STEM, underrepresented minorities, how do we get them on cybersecurity career path? Is there a best practices there? Bill, we'll start with you. >> Well, I think it's really interesting. First thing I want to add is, if I could, just a clarification. What's really cool, the competition that we have and we're running, it's run by students from Cal Poly. So Amy referenced the clubs and other activities. So many of the organizers and developers of the competition that we're running are the students, but not just from engineering. So we actually have theater and liberal arts majors and technology for liberal arts majors who are part of the competition, and we use their areas of expertise, set design and other things, visualization, virtualization. Those are all part of how we then teach and educate cyber in our gamification and other areas. So they're all involved and they're learning, as well. So we have our students teaching other students. So we're really excited about that. And I think that's part of what leads to a mentoring aspect of what we're providing where our students are mentoring the other students. And I think it's also something that's really important in the game. The first year we held the game, we had several all-girl teams, and it was really interesting because A, they didn't really know if they could compete. I mean, this is their reference point. We don't know if. They did better than anybody. I mean, they just, they knocked the ball out of the park. The second part, then, is building that confidence level that can, going back and telling their cohorts that, hey, it's not this obtuse thing you can't do. It's something real that you can compete and win. And so again, it's building that camaraderie, that spirit, that knowledge that they can succeed. And I think that goes a long way. And Amy's programs and the reach out and the reach out that Cal Poly does to schools to develop, I think that's what it really is going to take. It is going to take that village approach to really increase diversity and inclusivity for the community. >> Dr. Fleischer, I'd love to get your thoughts. You mentioned your outreach program and the drop-off, some of those data. You're deeply involved in this. You're passionate about it. What's your thoughts on this career path opportunity for STEM? >> Yeah, I think STEM is an incredible career path opportunity for so many people. There's so many interesting problems that we can solve, particularly in cyber and in space systems. And I think we have to meet the kids where they are and kind of show them what the exciting part is about it, right? But Bill was alluding to this when he was talking about trying to name somebody that you can point to. And I think having those visible people where you can see yourself in that is absolutely critical, and those mentors and that mentorship program. So we use a lot of our students going out into California middle schools and elementary schools. And you want to see somebody that's like you, somebody that came from your background and was able to do this. So a lot of times we have students from our National Society of Black Engineers or our Society of Hispanic Professional Engineers or our Society of Women Engineers, which we have over 1,000 members, 1,000 student members in our Society of Women Engineers who are doing these outreach programs. But like I also said, it's hitting them at the lower levels, too, and Girl Scouts is actually distinguishing themselves as one of the leading STEM advocates in the country. And like I said, they developed all these cybersecurity badges starting in kindergarten. There's a cybersecurity badge for kindergartener and first graders. And it goes all the way up through late high school. The same thing with space systems. And they did the space systems in partnership with NASA. They did the cybersecurity in partnership with Palo Alto Networks. And what you do is you want to build these skills that the girls are developing, and like Bill said, work in girl-led teams where they can do it, and if they're doing it from kindergarten on, it just becomes normal, and they never think, well, this is not for me. And they see the older girls who are doing it and they see a very clear path leading them into these careers. >> Yeah, it's interesting, you used the word normalization earlier. That's exactly what it is. It's life, you get life skills and a new kind of badge. Why wouldn't you learn how to be a white hat hacker or have some fun or learn some skills? >> Amy: Absolutely. >> Just in the grind of your fun day. Super exciting. Okay, Trung, your thoughts on this. I mean, you have a diverse, diversity brings perspective to the table in cybersecurity because you have to think like the other guy, the adversary. You got to be the white hat. You can't be a white hat unless you know how black hat thinks. So there's a lot of needs here for more points of view. How are we going to get people trained on this from underrepresented minorities and women? What's your thoughts? >> Well, as a member of the IEEE Professional Society of Electrical and Electronic Engineers, every year we participate in the engineering week. We deploy our members to local junior high school and high school to talk about our project to promote the study of engineering. But at the same time, we also participate in the science fair that the state of Texas is organizing. Our engineer will be mentoring students, number one, to help them with the project, but number two, to help us identify talent so that we can recruit them further into the field of STEM. One of the participation that we did was the competition of the, what they call Future City, where students will be building a city on a computer simulation. And in recent year, we promote the theme of smart city where city will be connected the individual houses and together into the internet. And we want to bring awareness of cybersecurity into that competition. So we deploy engineer to supervise the people, the students who participate in the competition. We bring awareness not in the technical detail level, but in what we've call the compound level so student will be able to know what required to provide cybersecurity for the smart city that they are building. And at the same time, we were able to identify talent, especially talent in the minority and in the woman, so that we can recruit them more actively. And we also raise money for scholarship. We believe that scholarship is the best way to entice student to continue education at the college level. So with scholarship, it's very easy to recruit them to the field and then push them to go further into the cybersecurity area. >> Yeah, I mean, I see a lot of the parents like, oh, my kid's going to go join the soccer team, we get private lessons, and maybe they'll get a scholarship someday. Well, they only do half scholarships. Anyway. I mean, if they spent that time doing these other things, it's just, again, this is a new life skill, like the Girl Scouts. And this is where I want to get into this whole silo breaking down, because Amy, you brought this up, and Bill, you were talking about it, as well. You got multiple stakeholders here with this event. You've got public, you've got private, and you've got educators. It's the intersection of all of them. It's, again, if those silos break down, the confluence of those three stakeholders have to work together. So let's talk about that. Educators. You guys are educating young minds. You're interfacing with private institutions and now the public. What about educators? What can they do to make cyber better? 'Cause there's no real manual. I mean, it's not like this court is a body of work of how to educate cybersecurity. Maybe it's more recent. There's cutting edge best practices. But still, it's an evolving playbook. What's your thoughts for educators? Bill, we'll start with you. >> Well, I'm going to turn to Amy and let her go first. >> Let you go. >> That's fine. >> I would say as educators, it's really important for us to stay on top of how the field is evolving, right? So what we want to do is we want to promote these tight connections between educators and our faculty and applied research in industry and with industry partnerships. And I think that's how we're going to make sure that we're educating students in the best way. And you're talking about that inner, that confluence of the three different areas. And I think you have to keep those communication lines open to make sure that the information on where the field is going and what we need to concentrate on is flowing down into our educational process. And that works in both ways, that we can talk as educators and we can be telling industry what we're working on and what types of skills our students have and working with them to get the opportunities for our students to work in industry and develop those skills along the way, as well. And I think it's just all part of this really looking at what's going to be happening and how do we get people talking to each other? And the same thing with looking at public policy and bringing that into our education and into these real hands-on experiences. And that's how you really cement this type of knowledge with students, not by talking to them and not by showing them, but letting them do it. It's this learn by doing and building the resiliency that it takes when you learn by doing. And sometimes you learn by failing, but you just pick up and you keep going. And these are important skills that you develop along the way. >> You mentioned sharing, too. That's the key. Collaborating and sharing knowledge. It's an open world and everyone's collaborating. Bill, private-public partnerships. I mean, there's a real, private companies, you mentioned Palo Alto Networks and others. There's a real intersection there. They're motivated. They could, there's scholarship opportunities. Trung points to that. What is the public-private educator view there? How do companies get involved and what's the benefit for them? >> Well, that's what a lot of the universities are doing is to bring in as part of either their cyber centers or institutes people who are really focused on developing and furthering those public-private partnerships. That's really what my role is in all these things is to take us to a different level in those areas, not to take away from the academic side, but to add additional opportunities for both sides. Remember, in a public-private partnership, all entities have to have some gain in the process. Now, what I think is really interesting is the timing on particularly this subject, space and cybersecurity. This has been an absolute banner year for space. The standup of Space Force, the launch of commercial partnership, you know, commercial platforms delivering astronauts to the space station, recovering them, and bringing them back. The ability of a commercial satellite platform to be launched. Commercial platforms that not only launch but return back to where they're launched from. These are things that are stirring the hearts of the American citizens, the kids, again, they're getting interested. They're seeing this and getting enthused. So we have to seize upon that and we have to find a way to connect that. Public-private partnerships is the answer for that. It's not one segment that can handle it all. It's all of them combined together. If you look at space, space is going to be about commercial. It's going to be about civil. Moving from one side of the Earth to the other via space. And it's about government. And what's really cool for us, all those things are in our backyard. That's where that public-private comes together. The government's involved. The private sector's involved. The educators are involved. And we're all looking at the same things and trying to figure out, like this forum, what works best to go to the future. >> You know, if people are bored and they want to look for an exciting challenge, you couldn't have laid it out any clearer. It's the most exciting discipline. It's everything. I mean, we just talk about space. GPS is, everything we do is involved, has to do with satellites. (laughs) >> I have to tell you a story on that right? We have a very unique GPS story right in our backyard. So our sheriff is the son of the father of GPS for the Air Force. So you can't get better than that when it comes to being connected to all those platforms. So we really want to say, you know, this is so exciting for all of us because it gives everybody a job for a long time. >> You know, the kids that think TikTok's exciting, wait till they see what's going on here with you guys, this program. Trung, final word on this from the public side. You're at the Air Force. You're doing research. Are you guys opening it up? Are you integrating into the private and educational sectors? How do you see that formula playing out? And what's the best practice for students and preparing them? >> I think it's the same in every university in the engineering program will require our students to do the final project before graduation. And in this kind of project, we send them out to work in the private industry, the private company that sponsor them. They get the benefit of having an intern working for them and they get the benefit of reviewing the students as the prospective employee in the future. So it's good for the student to gain practical experience working in this program. Sometimes we call that a co-op program. Sometimes we call that a capstone program. And the company will accept the student on a trial basis, giving them some assignment and then pay them a little bit of money. So it's good for the student to earn some extra money, to have some experience that they can put on their resume when they apply for the final, for the job. So the collaboration between university and private sector is really important. When I join a faculty normally there already exist that connection. It came from normally, again, from the dean of engineering, who would wine and dine with companies, build up relationship, and sign up agreement. But it's us professor who have to do the (indistinct) approach to do a good performance so that we can build up credibility to continue the relationship with those company and the student that we selected to send to those company. We have to make sure that they will represent the university well, they will do a good job, and they will make a good impression. >> Thank you very much for a great insight, Trung, Bill, Amy. Amazing topic. I'd like to end this session with each of you to make a statement on the importance of cybersecurity to space. We'll go Trung, Bill, and Amy. Trung, the importance of cybersecurity to space, brief statement. >> The importance of cybersecurity, we know that it's affecting every component that we are using and we are connecting to, and those component, normally we use them for personal purpose, but when we enter the workforce, sometimes we connect them to the important system that the government or the company are investing to be put into space. So it's really important to practice cybersecurity, and a lot of time, it's very easy to know the concept. We have to be careful. But in reality, we tend to forget to to practice it the way we forget how to drive a car safely. And with driving a car, we have a program called defensive driving that requires us to go through training every two or three years so that we can get discount. Every organization we are providing the annual cybersecurity practice not to tell people about the technology, but to remind them about the danger of not practicing cybersecurity and it's a requirement for every one of us. >> Bill, the importance of cybersecurity to space. >> It's not just about young people. It's about all of us. As we grow and we change, as I referenced it, we're changing from an analog world to a digital world. Those of us who have been in the business and have hair that looks like mine, we need to be just as cognizant about cybersecurity practice as the young people. We need to understand how it affects our lives, and particularly in space, because we're going to be talking about people, moving people to space, moving payloads, data transfer, all of those things. And so there's a whole workforce that needs to be retrained or upskilled in cyber that's out there. So the opportunity is ever expansive for all of us. >> Amy, the importance of cybersecurity in space. >> I mean the emphasis of cybersecurity is space just simply can't be over emphasized. There are so many aspects that are going to have to be considered as systems get ever more complex. And as we pointed out, we're putting people's lives at stake here. This is incredibly, incredibly complicated and incredibly impactful, and actually really exciting, the opportunities that are here for students and the workforce of the future to really make an enormous impact on the world around us. And I hope we're able to get that message out to students and to children today, that these are really interesting fields that you need to consider. >> Thank you very much. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE, and the importance of cybersecurity and space is the future of the world's all going to happen in and around space with technology, people, and society. Thank you to Cal Poly, and thank you for watching the Cybersecurity and Space Symposium 2020. (bright music)

>> So welcome to the special. Keep conversation here in Palo Alto, California John, for a host of the Cube. We're here with two co founders. Adam Casella was the CTO and Glenn Sullivan's cofounder. Snap Route Hot Start up, guys. Welcome to this Cube conversation. Thank you. Thank you. So left on the founders in because you get the down and dirty, but you guys are launching. Interesting product is for Cloud Cloud Native Super sighting. But first, take a man to explain what is snap brought. What do you guys do? What's the main core goal of the company? >> Right? So your your audience and you familiar with white Box now working disaggregated networking, where you're buying your hardware and your software from different companies. There's a lot of different Network OS is out there, but there's nobody doing what we're doing for the now ergo es, which is a cloud native approach to that where it's a fully containerized, fully micro serviced network OS running on these white box, which is >> test your background. How did you guys start this company? Where'd you come from? What was the epiphany? Was the motivation? >> Sure. So our heritage is from operations running at some of the largest Edison is in the world. We came from Apple. Ah, and running the networks there. And the issues and problems that we saw doing that is what led us to found stabbed. >> And what are some of the things that apples you guys notice on a huge scale? Yep. I mean, Apple. You know, a huge market share most probable company. I think it's now the largest cat. Microsoft was there for a while, but and apples, the gold standard, get from privacy to scale. What were some of the things that you saw, that what was the authority? >> So, I mean, there was a couple of things going on there, one we were driving driving too, doing white box for more control. So we wanted to have a better sense of what we could do with the network operating system on those devices. And we found very quickly that the operating systems that were out there, whether they be from a traditional manufacturer Ah, we and the planes or from someone from a disaggregated marketplace were basically using the same architecture. And this was this old, monolithic single binary item that goes in the pleasant device, and you know that worked in, you know, back in the day when you know applications didn't move, they were static there, One particular location. But as we were seeing, and one things that we were really pushing on is being able to dynamically have move workloads from one location to another quickly to meet demand. The network was not able to keep up with that, and we believe that it really came down to the architecture that was there. Not being flexible enough and not allowing our control to be able to put in the principles would actually allow us to allow that that application time to service be faster. >> You know, one of these on personally fascinated, you know, seeing startups out there and living in this cloud error and watching those like Facebook and Apple, literally build the new kind of scale in real time. It's like you have, you know, changing the airplane engine out of thirty five thousand feet. As the expression goes, you have to be modern. I mean, there's money on the line that's so much scale, and when you see an inefficiency, you've got to move on it Yeah, this is like, what, you guys did it. Apple. What were some of the things that yet you observed was that the box is Was it the software? A CZ? You wanted to be more agile. What was the the problem that you saw? >> So it it's really in fragility, right? It's it's basically, this Network OS is as they were, our design in a way so that you don't touch him right. If you look at the code releases and how often they, you know, fixed security vulnerabilities or you know they have patches or even knew regular versions right there. The cycle isn't weekly. It's not daily like you see in some C I C. Environments, right? You might have a six month or a twelve month or an eighteen month cycle for doing this sort of a new release for for, you know, whatever issue new features or or fixes, right. And the problem that we would see is we would be we would be trying to test a version in the lab, right? We would be qualifying code and say there's a security vulnerability. You know, something like heart bleed, right? That comes out the guys on the server side, they push a new patch using, you know, answerable Scheffer puppet and, you know, two days later, everything's good, even two hours later in some environments. But we had to wait for the new release to come from one of the traditional vendors we had to put in our lab, and we get this sort of kitchen sink of every other fix. There'd be enhancements to be GP that we didn't ask for. There'd be enhancements to, you know, Spanish or that we didn't ask for. Even if they patched it, you'd still get this sort of all in one update. And by the time you're done qualifying, there might be another security vulnerability. So you got to start over. So you'd be in this constant cycle of months of qualified, you know, qualifying the image because you you'd be testing everything that's in the image. And not just that. The update. And that's really the key difference between what we're >> going to work involves shapes you eventually chasing your tail. Exactly. One thing comes in and opens up a lot of consequences, but that's what systems over >> all about this consequences, right? This is right systems are challenging. And what it does is it is it creates this culture and no from the network folks, right? Because the network folks are basically, like, not in my backyard. You want to add this new thing? No. Because they're judged by up time. They're judged by how long the network is up and how long the applications available. They're not judged by how quickly they can put a new feature out or how how quickly they can roll an update. Their They're literally judged in most organizations by up time. How many nines are they giving? So if I'm judged by up time and somebody wants to add something new, my first answer as a network person has anybody really is gonna be No, no, no, don't touch anything. It's it's fragile >> because they're jerks or anything. They just know the risk associate with what could come from the consequence exactly touching something. So, yes, it's hard right now to yes, Okay, so I gotta ask you guys a question. How come the networking industry hasn't solved this problem? >> Well, there's a There's a few different reasons I feel it is, and that's because we've had very tightly coupled, very tightly controlled systems that have been deployed his appliances without allowing operators to go ahead and add their innovations onto those items. So if you look at the way thie compute world is kind of moved along in the past fifteen, you know, fifty, thirty years, you mean, really a revolution started to athletics, right? From their particular perspective, you have Lennox. You can open up the system, you get people constructing open source items everyone knows just end. A story that makes the most is the most successful, monolithic, you know, piece of code base that's ever existed, right? It took fifteen years later for anyone in the network industry to even run the linens on a switch. I mean, that's that's pretty, you know, huge in my mind, right? That's that's that's called like Yeah, and so and even when they've got it on the particular switch to running older versions of Colonel, they're running different things. They don't you know, back Porter versions of code that don't work with the most modern applications that are out there, and they really have it in their tight, little walled garden that you can't adjust things with and >> that was their operational mode at the time. I mean, networks were still stable. They weren't that complicated. And hence the lag and many felt had been left >> behind. Theocracy. Inefficiencies that may have function when you have dozens of devices doesn't function when you have hundreds and thousands of devices. And so when you look at, like even from the way they they presented their operating system from a config standpoint, it is a flat config file that's loaded from filing booted. That's the same paradigm people of file for forty years. Why do we still think that hotel today compute has left that behind? They're going the programmatic AP diversions with you know whether it be you know, Cooper netease war with Doctor, where they have everything built into one ephemeral container that gets deployed. Why it hasn't been working in the same thing. And I really believe it's for that close ecosystem that hasn't allowed. People look to put their innovations onto their Yeah, it's >> almost as a demarcation point in time. You think about history and him and how we got here, where it's like, Okay, we got perimeters. We got firewalls and switches top Iraq stuff. So you got scale. It's bolted down, it's secure. And incomes Cloud comes I ot So there's almost a point, You know, it almost picked. The year was a two thousand eight doesn't through two thousand twelve. You started to see that philosophy. So the question I've asked for you is that what was the tipping point? So because, you know, the fire being lit under the butts of networking guys finally hit and someone saying, Well, they don't evolve to be like the mainframe guys. I was like, not really, because mainframes is just different from client server. Networks aren't going away there around. What's the tip was the tipping point. What made the network industry stand up? >> So yeah, what it is, is it's it's being able to buy infrastructure with a credit card, Right? Because as soon as I've got a problem as an application owner was a developer, I say, Hey, I've got this thing that I've got a release, right and I go to the network came and said, I've got this new thing and I get any sort of pushback. Now you look a cloud, right? Eight of us is our Google, like all the different options out there. Fine. I don't need these guys anymore. When the grab credit card slide it, boom. Now I can buy my infrastructure. That's that's really the shift. That's what's pushing folks away from using those kind of classic network infrastructure is because they could do something else, right? >> So cloud clearly driving it, think >> I would. I would say so. Yeah, absolutely. All >> right, So the path of solve these problems, you guys have an interesting solution. What's the path? What's the solution that you guys are bringing to market? Sure. >> So the way I had kind of view, the way the landscape is set up is really if you look at you know where this innovation has happened in the compute side in the last little bit Weatherby Cloud, whether it be, you know, some of the club native items would come out there. They've all come for the operators. I haven't been a vendor to sitting there and going to play. They've kind of mirth, morph himself into vendors. But they didn't originate as vendors, right to go and supply these systems. And so what I see from the solution to that is sort of enabling operators and people who are running networks to be ableto controller their own destiny to manage how their networks are deployed right. And this boils down from our perspective to a micro services containerized network operating system that is not be spoke, not proprietary, but is using the ecosystem has been built from this P people on the computes side specifically the cloud native universe in a cloud native world and applying those perimeters and shims onto network >> learned, learned from the cloud, Right? Like don't try to make something better. Look at the reasons why folks are going to the cloud Look at the AP structures looking. He's of launching instances. Look, att the infrastructure you build with a few clicks and say, What can I learn from that environment to Moto? Mimic that in my private environment? >> Yeah, and this is why we kinda looked at cu burnett. He's is a really big piece of our infrastructure and using the company as a p I as the main interface in tor device. So that you, Khun, you know multi different reasons, is expandable. You could do, you know, a bunch of different custom options to expand that a P i But it allows people who are either in. Deva loves to look at that and go. I understand how this works. I know how these shims function and started getting in the realization that networking is not that much different than what the computer world is. >> So you guys embraced integration, his deployment, CCD pipeline, all that good stuff. And Cooper netease even saw Apple at sea Ncf conference that they have a booth there. No one would talk, but certainly communities is getting part that cloud native. What's the important solution that you guys are building to solve to solve from the problems that you're going after with now the cloud needed because Dev ops ethos is trickling down, helping down the stack. Certainly we know what cloud is, so it's So what is specifically the problem that you solved >> So a couple things that air So obviously you have your, you know, application time of service. The faster you can double your application, the faster you can get up and running the factory. People using out it is, you know, you get more money, you save money, right? Um, you have security. No one wants to be in that that, you know, that box of having a security voluntarily happened on there, but they >> were non compliance, >> Yes, or non compliance with particular thing with a P i. P. I C P C high socks and all in all things that come along with that. And finally it's the operational efficiency of day two operations. We've gotten pretty good as industry as deploying Day one operations and walking away. We don't do anything. No, no, no. We can't change the network anymore. It's really that next day when you have to to things like apply those applications or have a new application, it gets moved. Containers are ephemeral. The average container last two to three days. Viens last twenty three days. Monolithic caps last for years. That air that are not in those things that are just compute bare metal piece. So when we start moving to a location or a journey of having a two to three day ephemeral app that can be removed or moved, replace different location. The network needs to be able to react to that, and it needs to be able to take that and ensure that that not only up time but availability is there for that, >> and it's not management tools that are going to fix it, right? This is this is sort of our core argument is that you look at all of the different solutions that have come out for the last seven, eight, nine years in the networking in the open networking space. This trying to solve this from management perspective with, you know, different esti n profiling different, different solutions for solving this management. Day two operations issues, right. And our core argument is that the management layers on top aren't what needs to change. That can change. If you adopt communities, you get that kind of along with it. But you need to change the way the network OS itself is built so that it's not so brittle so that it's not so fragile breaking into micro services, breaking the containers so that you can put it into a CCD pipeline. You try to take a monolithic network OS and put it in your C. C I. C D Pipeline. You're going to be pushing a rock up. Help. >> It's funny. We've had Scott McNealy on the Cube founder Sun Microsystems and we said, You know, he has from one time. Hey, you know what about the cloud he goes? I should I had network is the computer was his philosophies. I should should we call the cloud? So if the network is the computer kind of concept thie operating environment management's not aki sub system of the network. It's a component, but the operating system has subsystems. So I like this idea of a network, operates system talk about what you guys do with your work operating system and what is day to mean. What is actually that means >> sure. So when you take your services and you divide them up into containers and, you know, call the micro services, basically taking a single service, putting container and having a bunch of dependency that might be associate with that, what you end up doing is having your ability to, uh, you know, replace or update that particular container independently of the other components on the system. If an issue happens, or if you want to get a new feature functionally for that, the other thing you could do is you, Khun Slim, down what you're running. So you don't have to run these two hundred plus features, which is the average amount you see and just a top Iraq device. And you only use maybe ten to twenty percent of those. Why do I have all these extra features that I have to qualify that may introduce a bug into my particular environment. I want to run the very specific items that I know I need to give my application, uh, up and running and the ability to go ahead and pull in the cloud native environment and tools to do that allows you to get the efficiencies that they've learned from not only the cloud way, but also even doing some on Prem communities. You know, private cloud items to get those efficiencies on their forwarding, your network running your applications. >> It's learning from the hyper sailors to write like this. This is Well, I mean, we had this when we were running networks, right? You put every protocol on the board on a white board, and then you'd start crossing them off and you start arguing in a room full of people saying, Why do I need this feature? Why do I need this other feature and it's like you have to justify it. And we know this is happening up the road at, you know, places like Facebook because, like Google, right, we know that they're that they're saying, Hey, the fewer features I have running the simple or my environment is the easier it is to troubleshoot, the less that can go wrong and the less security vulnerabilities. I have these air all. It's all goodness to run less right. So if you give people the ability to actually do that, they have a substantially better network. Yeah, >> what's unique about what you guys doing? How would you describe the difference between what you're doing and what people mean she might be looking at? >> So if you look at what you know other folks, that you know that we're going to see that look at collaborative Riku Burnett ys everything they do is a bolt on until his old architecture that's been around for twenty five years. So it's like a marriage between these two items. It's how you go ahead and have this plug in that interacts with that. Forget all that you're going to get up in the same spot with another thing you're adding on to another thing you're adding on to another thing. Hearing onto it seized these abstraction layers on top of distraction layers were taking the approach where it is native to the non core operating system. You know, Cooper, Daddy's Docker, Micro Services and containers. They're native to the system. We're not anything on. We're not bolting anything on there. That's how it is. Architect designed to be run. >> And that's key, right? The thing that we were really walking away from from our operational experience, we know that the decisions being made at that, you know, CEO Seo level and even in the you know, director of infrastructure level are going to be We're looking to build an on Prem solution, Mr Customers saying I need it to be orchestrated by an open, nonproprietary platform that gets rid of all of the platforms that are currently out there by the traditional network. Oh, yeah, Bs right. If you start out saying my orchestration platform has to be shared from compute storage network and it has to be open and has to be not proprietary, that pretty much leaves communities is you're really only choice and combinations important. It's hugely important to us, right? We knew that when we broke everything into, you know, containerized Micro Services. You need something to orchestrate those. So what we've done is we said, Hey, we're going to use this Cuban eighties tool. We're going to embed it on the device itself, and we're going to run it natively so that it can be the control point for all the different containers that are running on the system. >> That's awesome, guys. Great Chef will go forward to chatting more final question. What words of wisdom you have for other folks out there, Because there are a lot of worlds colliding as we look at the convergence of a cloud architect, which, by the way, is not a well defined position >> where you >> have infrastructure, folks who have gone through machinations of roles. Network engineer this that the other thing programmable networks air out there. You seeing this thing really time data? I oh, ti's. Also, you're all coming together yet. So what, you gotta re evaluating? What's your advice to folks out there? Who who are either evaluating running POC is rethinking their architecture. >> So the first thing that you know I think this is pretty common from folks that to hear is that evolve, or you're not going to be relevant anymore. You need to actually embrace these other items you can't ignore. Cloud. You can't pretend like I have a network. These applications will never move because eventually they will and you're going to be out of a job. And so we need you to start looking at some of the items that are out there from the cloud native universe to couldn't see Cooper nineties universe and realizing that networking is not a special Silent is completely different from, you know, dev ops every items they need to be working together. And we need to get these two groups and to communicate to each other, to actually move the ball forward for getting applications out there faster for customers. >> Don't let the thing I would say to infrastructure, folks, especially those that are going to cloud strategy is don't let the Ivy and the Moss grow on your own prime solution yesterday. Right? Go into your multi cloud strategy with I'm gonna have some stuff in eight of us and have some stuff deserve. I'm not stuff some stuff and Google. I might have some stuff overseas because the data sovereignty. But I'm also gonna have things that are on prep. Look at your on from environment and make it better to reflect what you could do in the cloud. Because once you're developers get using the AP structures in the cloud. They're going to want something very similar on Prem. And if they don't have it than your own, Prem is going to rot. And and you're going to have some part of your business that has to be on Prem and you're going to give it a level of service that isn't as good as the cloud, and nobody wants to be in that situation. >> Glenn, Adam Thanks so much for sharing. Congratulations on the launch of Snap Out every year and thanks for coming and sharing conversation. >> Thanks. Great. >> I'm John for here in Palo Alto. The Cube Studios for Cube Conversation with Snapper Out. Launching. I'm shot for you. Thanks for watching

>> Live from Barcelona, Spain. It's the cue covering Sisqo. Live Europe. Brought to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to sunny Barcelona. Everybody watching the Cube, the leader and live tech coverage. We go out to the events, we extract the signal from the noise we hear There's our third day of coverage that Sisqo live. Barcelona David Lot. John Furrier. This here stew Minutemen all week. John, we've been covering this show. Walter Wall like a canon ae is here is a distinguished engineer and product line. CTO for Cisco Analytics. Welcome to the Cube. You see you again. Welcome back to the Cube. I should say thank you very much. So tell us about your role. You're focused right now on malware encryption. We want to get into that, but but set it up with your roll >> first. Well, I'm trying to raise the cost to the bad guy's hiding in your network. I mean, basically it's it. It it's an economics thing because one there's a lot of places for them to hide. And and they they are innovating just as much as we are. And so if I can make it more expensive for them to hide and operate. Then I'm doing my job. And and that means not only using techniques of the past but developing new techniques. You know, Like I said, it's It's really unlike a regular job. I'm not waiting for the hard drive to fail or a power supply to fail. I have an active adversary that's smart and well funded. So if I if I shipped some innovation, I forced them to innovate and vice versa. >> So you're trying to reduce their our ally and incentives. >> I want to make it too expensive for them to do business. >> So what's the strategy there? Because it's an arms race. Obviously wanted one one. You know, Whitehead over a black hat, kind of continue to do that. Is it decentralized to create more segments? What is the current strategies that you see to make it more complex or less economically viable to just throw resource at a port or whatever? >> There's sort of two dimensions that are driving change one. You know they're trying to make a buck. Okay? And and, you know, we saw the ransomware stuff we saw, you know, things that they did to extract money from a victim. Their latest thing now is they've They've realized that Ransomware wasn't a recurring revenue stream for them. Right? And so what's called crypto jacking is so they essentially have taking the cost structure out of doing crypto mining. You know, when you do crypto mining, you'll make a nickel, maybe ten cents, maybe even twenty cents a day. Just doing this. Mathematical mining, solving these puzzles. And if you had to do that on your own computer, you'd suck up all this electricity and thing. You'd have some cost structure, right and less of a margin. But if you go on, you know, breach a thousand computers, maybe ten thousand, maybe one hundred thousand. Guess what, right you? Not one you're hiding. So guess what? Today you make a nickel tomorrow, you make another nickel. So, you know, if you if you go to the threat wall here, you'd be surprised this crypto mining activity taking place here and nobody knows about it. We have it up on the threat wall because we can detect its behavior. We can't see the actual payload because all encrypted. But we have techniques now. Advanced Analytics by which we can now call out its unique behaviour very distinctly. >> Okay, so you're attacking this problem with with data and analytics. Is that right? What? One of the ingredients of your defense? >> Yeah. I mean, they're sort of Ah, three layer cake There. You first. You have? You know, I always say all telemetry is data, but not all data. Is telemetry. All right? So when you when you go about looking at an observation or domain, you know, Inhumans, we have sight. We have hearing these air just like the network or the endpoint. And there's there's telemetry coming out of that, hopefully from the network itself. Okay, because it's the most pervasive. And so you have this dilemma tree telling you something about the good guys and the bad guys and you, you perform synthesis and analytics, and then you have an analytical outcome. So that's sort of the three layer cake is telemetry, analytics, analytical outcome. And what matters to you and me is really the outcome, right? In this case, detecting malicious activity without doing decryption. >> You mentioned observation. Love this. We've been talking to Cuba in the past about observation space. Having an observation base is critical because you know, people don't write bomb on a manifest and ship it. They they hide it's it's hidden in the network, even their high, but also the meta data. You have to kind extract that out. That's kind of where you get into the analytics. How does that observation space gets set up? Happened? Someone creating observation special? They sharing the space with a public private? This becomes kind of almost Internet infrastructure. Sound familiar? Network opportunity? >> Yeah. You know, there's just three other. The other driver of change is just infrastructure is changing. Okay. You mean the past? Go back. Go back twenty years, you had to rent some real estate. You gotto put up some rocks, some air conditioning, and you were running on raw iron. Then the hyper visors came. Okay, well, I need another observation. A ll. You know, I meet eyes and ears on this hyper visor you got urbanity is now you've got hybrid Cloud. You have even serve Ellis computing, right? These are all things I need eyes and ears. Now, there that traditional methods don't don't get me there so again, being able to respect the fact that there are multiple environments that my digital business thrives on. And it's not just the traditional stuff, you know, there's there's the new stuff that we need to invent ways by which to get the dilemma tree and get the analytical >> talkabout this dynamic because we're seeing this. I think we're just both talking before we came on camera way all got our kind of CS degrees in the eighties. But if you look at the decomposition of building blocks with a P, I's and clouds, it's now a lot of moving to spare it parts for good reasons, but also now, to your point, about having eyes and ears on these components. They're all from different vendors, different clouds. Multi cloud creates Mohr opportunities. But yet more complexity. Software abstractions will help manage that. Now you have almost like an operating system concept around it. How are you guys looking at this? I'll see the intent based networking and hyper flex anywhere. You seeing that vision of data being critical, observation space, etcetera. But if you think about holistically, the network is the computer. Scott McNealy once said. Yeah, I mean, last week, when we are this is actually happening. So it's not just cloud a or cloud be anon premise and EJ, it's the totality of the system. This is what's happening >> ways. It's it's absolutely a reality. And and and the sooner you embrace that, the better. Because when the bad guys embrace it verse, You have problems, right? And and you look at even how they you know how they scale techniques. They use their cloud first, okay, that, you know their innovative buns. And when you look at a cloud, you know, we mentioned the eyes and ears right in the past. You had eyes and ears on a body you own. You're trying to put eyes in here on a body you don't own anymore. This's public cloud, right? So again, the reality is somebody you know. These businesses are somewhere on the journey, right? And the journey goes traditional hyper visor. You have then ultimately hybrid multi clouds. >> So the cost issue comes back. The play of everything sass and cloud. It's just You start a company in the cloud versus standing up here on the check, we see the start of wave from a state sponsored terrorist organization. It's easy for me to start a threat. So this lowers the cost actually threat. So that lowers the IQ you needed to be a hacker. So making it harder also helps that this is kind of where you're going. Explain this dynamic because it's easy to start threats, throw, throw some code at something. I could be in a bedroom anywhere in the world. Or I could be a group that gets free, open source tools sent to me by a state and act on behalf of China. Russia, >> Of course, of course, you know, software, software, infrastructures, infrastructure, right? It's It's the same for the bad guys, the good guys. That's sort of the good news and the bad news. And you look at the way they scale, you know, techniques. They used to stay private saying, You know, all of these things are are valid, no matter what side of the line you sit on, right? Math is still math. And again, you know, I just have Ah, maybe a fascination for how quickly they innovate, How quickly they ship code, how quickly they scale. You know, these botnets are massive, right? If you could get about that, you're looking at a very cloud infrastructure system that expands and contracts. >> So let's let's talk a little more about scale. You got way more good guys on the network than bad guys get you. First of all, most trying to do good and you need more good guys to fight the bad guys up, do things. Those things like infrastructure is code dev ops. Does that help the good guys scale? And and how so? >> You know it does. There's a air. You familiar with the concept called The Loop Joe? It was It was invented by a gentleman, Colonel John Boyd, and he was a jet fighter pilot. Need taught other jet fighter pilots tactics, and he invented this thing called Guadalupe and it's it's o d a observe orient decide. And at all right. And the quicker you can spin your doodle ooh, the more disoriented your adversary ISS. And so speed speed matters. Okay. And so if you can observe Orient, decide, act faster, then your adversary, you created almost a knowledge margin by which they're disoriented. And and the speed of Dev ops has really brought this two defenders. They can essentially push code and reorient themselves in a cycle that's frankly too small of a window for the adversary to even get their bearings right. And so speed doesn't matter. And this >> changing the conditions of the test, if you will. How far the environment, of course, on a rabbit is a strategy whether it's segmenting networks, making things harder to get at. So in a way, complexity is better for security because it's more complex. It costs more to penetrate complex to whom to the adversary of the machine, trying very central data base. Second, just hack in, get all the jewels >> leave. That's right, >> that's right. And and again. You know, I think that all of this new technology and and as you mentioned new processes around these technologies, I think it's it's really changing the game. The things that are very deterministic, very static, very slow moving those things. They're just become easy targets. Low cost targets. If you will >> talk about the innovation that you guys are doing around the encryption detecting malware over encrypted traffic. Yeah, the average person Oh, encrypted traffic is totally secure. But you guys have a method to figure out Mel, where behavior over encrypted, which means the payload can't be penetrated or it's not penetrated. So you write full. We don't know what's in there but through and network trav explain what you're working on. >> Yeah. The paradox begins with the fact that everybody's using networks now. Everything, even your thermostat. You're probably your tea kettle is crossing a network somewhere. And and in that reality, that transmission should be secure. So the good news is, I no longer have to complain as much about looking at somebody's business and saying, Why would you operate in the clear? Okay, now I say, Oh, my God, you're business is about ninety percent dot Okay, when I talked about technology working well for everyone, it works just as well for the bad guys. So I'm not going to tell this this business start operating in the clear anymore, so I can expect for malicious activity. No, we have to now in for malicious activity from behavior. Because the inspection, the direct inspection is no longer available. So that we came up with a technique called encrypted Traffic analytics. And again, we could have done it just in a product. But what we did that was clever was we went to the Enterprise networking group and said, if I could get of new telemetry, I can give you this analytical outcome. Okay? That'll allow us to detect malicious activity without doing decryption. And so the network as a sensor, the routers and switches, all of those things are sending me this. Richard, it's Tellem aji, by which I can infer this malicious activity without doing any secret. >> So payload and network are too separate things contractually because you don't need look at the payload network. >> Yeah. I mean, if you want to think about it this way, all encrypted traffic starts out unencrypted. Okay, It's a very small percentage, but everything in that start up is visible. So we have the routers and switches are sending us that metadata. Then we do something clever. I call it Instead of having direct observation, I need an observational derivative. Okay, I need to see its shape and size over time. So at minute five minute, fifteen minute thirty, I can see it's timing, and I can model on that timing. And this is where machine learning comes in because it's It's a science. That's just it's day has come for behavioral science, so I could train on all this data and say, If this malware looks like this at minute, five minute, ten minute fifteen, then if I see that exact behavior mathematically precise behaviour on your network, I can infer that's the same Mallory >> Okay, And your ability you mentioned just you don't have to decrypt that's that gives you more protection. Obviously, you're not exposed, but also presumably better performance. Is that right, or is that not affected? >> A lot? A lot better performance. The cryptographic protocols themselves are becoming more and more opaque. T L s, which is one of the protocols used to encrypt all of the Web traffic. For instance, they just went through a massive revision from one dot two two version one not three. It is faster, It is stronger. It's just better. But there's less visible fields now in the hitter. So you know things that there's a term being thrown around called Dark Data, and it's getting darker for everyone. >> So, looking at the envelope, looking at the network of fact, this is the key thing. Value. The network is now more important than ever explain why? Well, >> it connects everything right, and there's more things getting connected. And so, as you build, you know you can reach more customers. You can You can operate more efficiently, efficiently. You can. You can bring down your operational costs. There's so many so many benefit. >> FBI's also add more connection points as well. Integration. It's Metcalfe's law within a third dimension That dimension data value >> conductivity. I mean, the message itself is growing exponentially. Right? So that's just incredibly exciting. >> Super awesome topic. Looking forward to continuing this conversation. Great. Great. Come. Super important, cool and relevant and more impactful. A lot more action happening. Okay, Thanks for sharing that. Great. It's so great to have you on a keeper. Right, everybody, we'll be back to wrap Day three. Francisco live Barcelona. You're watching the Cube. Stay right there.

>> Narrator: Live from Austin, Texas, it's The Cube covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2017. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Linux Foundation, and The Cube's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, everyone. Live here, The Cube's exclusive coverage in Austin, Texas. This is CloudNativeCon and KubeCon for Kubernetes Conference. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman. My next two guests from Red Hat, Joe Brockmeier, senior evangelist, Linux Containers, Red Hat and Kimberly Craven, Director of Portfolio Marketing at Red Hat. Welcome to The Cube, good to see you guys. >> Thank you, good to see you, too. So I was saying at re:Invent last week that Red Hat's stamp of approval has always been in the enterprise. You guys are, you know, winning the enterprise, been there for years. But now, at Cloud Native, kind of things are coming together. You've got a lot of customers that have been, I won't say quietly going with Red Hat with OpenShift, and now with Kubernetes. Huge bet a few years ago. >> Mmhmm. >> Yep. >> Only two years ago. Kind of changed the game. >> Yeah, fortunately we made a strategic decision to replatform our own platform on Kubernetes and it was the right decision to make. So we've been lucky in that we've been able to, I'd say we've been able to invest in the right open source projects. So Joe, would you agree that over the years, I mean, starting with Linux. >> Yep. >> But in other technologies as well? >> Yeah, historically, I think we, not every, not 100% of the time, but a large enough percentage of the time, picked the right horse community wise. Open Stack, now Kubernetes, Linux-Colonel, obviously. I used to work for a company called LinuxMall and we sponsored these Linux pavilions. And I remember NetBSD guys telling me how Linux was doomed because it wasn't as elegant. >> Doomed, it sure didn't turn out that way. But certainly, the community model has changed. You're starting to see, you know, Dan Cohen, in his opening slide, actually kind of laid out the circle of innovation, project, products and profit. >> Joe: Yeah. >> And so now, it's okay to have profitability objectives as an outcome of great products. And so still bringing in the culture of innovation because the business market for this is pretty large. I see the number of people coming on board. The demand is pretty strong. >> Not just innovation, but I think, one of the important things about Kubernetes is that is has been a community project where it's a community of equals contributing to the project. And it's about each company bringing the right thing for the project, not the right thing necessarily just for that company, but the right thing for the overall project, which is really important. >> Timing's everything, right? I mean, as they say in life, but remember, all that FUD about past layers and infrastructures as a service, and again, the DevOps community was still growing. No one really talks about that anymore because people just want working software. >> Joe: Right. >> Right? So it's fun not to have those kind of conversations. Instead, the conversation's about how to orchestrate great workloads, how to onboard and accelerate more application developers. This is the narrative that we wanted a couple years ago. Now it's here. What are you guys doing at Red Hat to take that to the next level? >> Kimberly: So I'm going to defer to Joe for that one. >> Joe: Okay. To take that to the next level. First, before people can get to the next level, one thing I want to point out is that while everybody here is hip deep in Kubernetes and they're ready, there are a lot of companies out there that are still digesting virtualization and still digesting cloud. >> Kimberly: Right. >> Private or public, and so one of our key roles is actually to help them consume open-source software and get from Point A to Point B. So the role that we're really playing right now is about taking customers with their workloads today that are running on bare metal, that are running on virtualization, that are pet workloads, right? And getting those into the cloud and getting in those into Kubernetes and that sort of thing. So the next level for a lot of folks is actually getting up to speed to the things that were announced today. >> Right. >> Well the question I want to ask, that I want to get this on the record, 'cause it's important to get the definition, what does Kubernetes mean to the enterprise? For us in Cloud Native, we understand what it is, we get it, but to the enterprise customer, what does Kubernetes mean to them? So I would say, based on the customer conversations that we've had, it's all about getting your workloads to the cloud and being more cloud native much more quickly. So that's the end goal for adopting containers and adopting Kubernetes. It's all about getting to be in a position where you can migrate your workloads to the cloud but also develop new on the cloud much more quickly than you could before. So it's about automating, it's about all of the processes behind that, if you will. >> Joe, comment? >> I agree with everything Kimberly said. I would also just add I think it's really about kind of an almost an end-stage of software packaging, which is something that Red Hat has been doing for 20+ years, is figuring out how do we take goodness of software, open-source software, and get it into a consumable format? First it was RPM, then it was YUM, now it's containers, now it's orchestrated containers that are, you know, able to be worked on with service mesh and all these other wonderful things, cloud native storage. It's basically about taking that software and making it scale. >> Yeah, I mean, yours is a service mesh. So let's take it to the next level of customer conversation. I love this stuff, I'm going to the cloud as soon as possible. I got some stuff in the public stuff now, I got a lot of on-premise stuff activity, I love hybrid cloud. So I got a lot of different use cases. I got some bare metal, I got some hybrid cloud and I got some public cloud. Is this where the OpenShift fits in? I mean, in that environment of a customer conversation, what's the current state of the art for Red Hat to engage that customer? >> So organizations, they're taking inventory of everything that they have today. So they're looking at what do they have on bare metal today, what do they have in virtualization, what different workloads do they have and where does it make sense to deploy them both financially and from an advancement perspective? Because some workloads don't have to be, they don't have to be advanced as quickly. You don't have to make additional updates. But there are other workloads that are moving much more quickly. And one of the things that Red Hat does and where we help our customers, especially with OpenShift, is we allow them to deploy those workloads across, whether they're going to on-premises with a bare metal if you say, or as well as virtualization, private cloud, potentially a mixture of multicloud environment where they have some workloads going to Google, some workloads going to AWS, and some going to Azure. It's being able to do that consistently, that OpenShift for guidance. >> Is that a common use case right now? Is that the number one use case, this hybrid? >> So when you say that, the hybrid cloud, it's not, it's a combination of multiple use cases. People aren't necessarily looking just yet to take the same workload and move it such that it's spanning multiple clouds, but they want to have that flexibility so that if they choose to go to a certain public cloud, and it becomes it's not cost-effective for them to do so anymore, they want to be able to take that workload and move it. And that's what we're working towards. >> Joe, I got to ask about OpenShift because, you know, we've been following you guys since the Open Stack days and now with the formation of this, seeing nice lines of sight of value proposition. What's going on with OpenShift? We're hearing a lot of good customer wins, a lot of people are using it. I heard a comment in the hallway saying that OpenShift has more customers than most of these vendors here combined. I'm not sure I believe that, that might have been just kind of chatter, but is that true or can you share the success? Because it's been on a tear. What are some of the OpenShift success points? >> Kimberly: Well-- >> So is it true there are more customers than all everyone else combined? >> I'd like to say so, I mean-- >> John: Pretty close or-- >> You were at Red Hat Summit this past year back in the May timeframe and we had many OpenShift customers that were on stage. I mean, it was-- >> John: You got lots. >> Yeah, we had to turn sessions away from customers because we didn't have enough room for them. >> So one of the things we actually haven't gotten to highlight yet at this event, Red Hat does, at a lot of these shows, ahead of the show, it's called OpenShift Commons, maybe you can give our audience a little bit of what goes into that. 'Cause all the container shows, the Cloud Native shows, you know, OpenShift has been there. >> Yeah, with OpenShift Commons, it's a great way for the community to collaborate around OpenShift specifically. It's, whether it be with our ISVs, working with our ISVs on different plugins to extend OpenShift as well as our customers to be able to provide us with feedback in terms of what they're looking for. And then we take that to the community. For example, Clayton was a top contributor. That was announced yesterday. >> Yes, Clayton got an award offered for that on stage, yeah. >> Yeah, and in essence, our customers are providing feedback to us directly in OpenShift Commons and in other forums. And that allows us to steer the community more effectively to meet their needs. >> I just want to add it's not a two-way conversation with Commons. It's also, you know, I was also there on Tuesday when we did Commons and we had Tellus, for example, telling their story to the other customers in the room. And so they're not just telling us, like, hey, this works for us, this doesn't work. They're telling each other and they're sharing successes, which is part of the wonder of open sourcing community. It's not just about, you know, you can have, I don't want to use an example, you can have a two-way conversation with any vendor that's taking your money. How many vendors are bringing you together to talk to your other customers? You have to have a lot of confidence, I think, in people being happy with your solution to build something out like that. >> Yeah, and experience, too. You guys had the experience. >> Yeah, you mentioned, we were right about that time, we'd been there a number of years. I feel the open source community is a little bit better at allowing those customers to kind of come forward. Because not only are they using it, they're usually contributing to some of these technologies. Some traditional shows, you know, getting a customer to get up on stage is pretty challenging. Any comments on that? >> Well it's funny because I think it's getting much easier, moving forward, for customers to participate in the communities, as you'll see with Netflix, for example. They were up on stage earlier and talking about the contributions that they're also making to the community. I think that it's much easier than it was even, I'd say, 5-10 years ago. With that said, there are a lot of customers that want help in terms of creating additional functionality in the community where they might have something that's, perhaps, not quite ready, not quite good enough, that we help to shepherd. >> Is there a profile of customer that's adopting Kubernetes? I mean, I've seen a lot of media coverage, obviously Netflix is on AWS. ACHB on stage today. Is it coincidental that there'd be two large big media online kind of companies, or-- >> Well, it's funny you should ask that because we're conducting a research project and we recently got some data back where we, in essence, sent out a survey to customers and non-customers to see where their adoption was. What we're finding is financial services, the media, communications organization, government, and even healthcare, to some extent, are taking a look at and adopting. I'd say that, based on the adoption curve, what's funny to note is, with government, government started looking, on average, at containers three years ago, whereas with financial services, they started to get more heavily invested, now this is in general, if you're looking at the median, two years ago. With that said, I think that financial services is actually adopting containers more quickly than government is. >> I'd love to see the data on that survey because we're always doing kind of probing, anecdotal kind of stirrup holes, friends and guests of The Cube. And it's the trend, from our standpoint, is that it seems that anywhere that there's been this transformation opportunity. >> Kimberly: Mmhmm. >> I mean, look at government. Who would've though public sector could be so fast and change? So public sector, media and entertainment, people with their modernizing seems to be where the action is. But financial services is always going to be on the IT dollar spend. But like, I mean, I'm really surprised at how fast public sector is evolving. >> And what's interesting about it, too, is also the industries that are predominantly concerned with security. Security and performance are very important to financial services and to government and to communications. And it's interesting how quickly this technology is being adopted with those considerations. >> Joe, one of the things coming into the show, I listened to some previews and they're saying, you know, we're not even going to talk about containers of the show. Of course, there's containers kind of underneath. Maybe speak a little bit about that dynamic. Red Hat, you know, so heavily involved. You know, of course Linux containers, you know, underneath there. Compare and contrast to kind of what we're kind of doing here in the Kubernetes and Cloud Native space. >> Yeah, so it really isn't about the individual container anymore than five years ago it was about the individual RPM. The container runtime and the ability to spin up a container is table stakes. And so that is no longer really where the value is. Same as like, hypervisors in cloud. Like, the real value is not in the hypervisor. It's around that, it's the ecosystem around it and the ability to do it. So yeah, I mean, we're still talking about, it's funny, when I have conversations, not here, but in other places, the parlance is still to say containers when they really mean, you know, like Kubernetes and orchestration, the whole schmear. But yeah, it's not where the value and the action is these days. >> Where's the Red Hat situation with the people now? Because we've seen, we've noticed, that you guys have really kind of continued to evolve as a company. Obviously, I mean, or in the early days of Red Hat, open source wasn't tier one. You guys made it tier one as a culture, that's well-documented. But then there's a whole new Red Hat mojo going on now. OpenShift, seeing you bringing that same principles. Talk about what's going on in the company now. We've seen a lot of smart people continuing to do the Red Hat thing. What is Red Hat now in the marketplace? The same old Red Hat? What's different, what's the same? 'Cause you guys are doing really well. >> Kimberly: Mmhmm. >> What's it like there? >> I think, I've been at Red Hat for about six years and I would say that the culture has continued to evolve since I joined. One of the things that first attracted me about it was that there are a lot of smart people that work at Red Hat and it's a very collaborative culture. It's a culture that's based on meritocracy and the best ideas truly win. So very similar to the way that OpenSource projects are run or should be run, for the good OpenSource projects, it's very much about getting people together, hearing what everyone has to say, and making sure that the right ideas are the ones that move forward. >> John: Surely they attract great people, too. >> Yeah. >> To build on that, in this industry there's so much kind of hype, boom and bust. On the outside, you look at it, I mean, from a financial standpoint, Red Hat's one of the most consistent performers out there. You know, quarter after quarter, Kim talks about the growth. So you know, I'm not asking you to talk about the financials but, you know, worth a show. Nobody here can keep up with all the changes. So you know, just, when you talk about all these projects and everything, Red Hat, can you keep up with the changes? Or is it just that you've got so many people and contribute so many places? >> We're working on it and I think, I mean, the nice thing about it is that everybody's very passionate about all of those changes that are happening. And we like change, oddly enough, we embrace it. It's interesting, but that's one of the parts of being at Red Hat. And I'd say, I mean, I would think that that's something that's inherent to us. >> Well, I mean, our corporate mission, part of our corporate mission is to be the catalyst for change and communities. And we, you know, I've worked at a couple of larger companies and this is the only one where I feel like if I don't agree with something I can send an email directly to Jim and say, "I don't agree with this and I think we should do something different." >> And he'll respond within four hours. >> And Jim will respond unless he's on a plane. >> Yeah, he'll respond and you know, even if they don't agree, which is impossible, everybody always agrees with me. (group laughs) But even if they don't agree, you know, they engage honestly and respectfully, and that's super important in this kind of industry. If you can't do that, you can't run with open source. >> Joe, Kimberly, thanks for coming on The Cube, and continued success and thanks for all the Red Hat contribution. You guys are doing a great job in the community. Continue to appreciate it. >> Thank you. >> Red Hat, here on The Cube, continuing to do the Red Hat thing. Red Hat, stamp of approval from the enterprise. Certainly well-respected and the leader inside The Cube here at the CloudNativeCon and KubeCon for KubernetesCon, not Cube. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman. We'll be back with more after this short break. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: Live from Las Vegas, it's The Cube, covering AWS Re:Invent 2017, presented by AWS, Intel, and our ecosystem of partners. >> Hey, welcome back everyone. We're live here in Las Vegas for AWS Re:Invent 2017, Amazon Web Services Annual Conference. I'm John Furrier, the cohost of The Cube, and I'm here with Keith Townsend, my cohost. We got our next guest Mike Ferris, who's the Vice President of Business Architecture at Technical Business Development. Welcome to The Cube. >> Thank you. >> So, Red Hat has got the new Hat, it's called the new school, it's called cloud, you have been there for a long time. Red has been pioneering open source, and that's growing exponentially. That combined with the cloud was seeing developers really at the heart of the conversation of valued creation. So, what's the update? I mean, you're here at AWS, you got some things to announce, things to share. >> Oh yeah, it's been awesome. I've been with the Red Hat a long time. And it's been an amazing transition to see us go from a company that really innovated the business models around open source taking Linux from being really a hobbyist activity into production workloads, and really addressing system administrators and IT administrators in the early days. What's really happened, especially since Amazon started innovating the public cloud, as you were saying, this innovative focus around what happens with developers in this space? And how can you provide more tools, capabilities, and services for them so they can really accelerate the applications and capabilities of the customers that they serve and really move forward. And so, what we've been doing very aggressively is looking up what's been happening in the open source community, helping innovate in the technologies that both Amazon and Red Hat and everybody else has been maturing, and help building out a new framework for developers to do that. And that's really centered around first, the base that we built on Red Hat Enterprise, Linux, and now more aggressively into Open Shift and container application platforms, so certainly the hot topics being Kubernetes, and everything's happening there, we've been really focused on that next generation of applications for developers. >> Everyone who watches Cube knows I'm a huge Red Hat fan, I always give you guys props because you guys were the progressives back in the day. You worked Tier One, you getting in there to give the freedom of coding back in the old days. And that was really the beginning of this massive wave. And if you look at open source and what you guys have done with open source and connected that to business value, has really been well documented. Amazon's done the same with the cloud. They were laughed at for years. Oh, it's a developer cloud. And they're winning all these enterprise deals. So, the threat here is you're starting to see that really, if you have great software and you have great value creation you can connect the business dots with developer dots. So, that being said, the rage now is server-less. The idea that you could tie containers and orchestrate work loads. This is kind of a little bit Open Shift connects there. What is the Red Hat value there because more open source, more community. What is all this Kubernetes, containerization and server-less, where does it all come together? >> So there's multiple levels, and kind of the core one that I always go back to is the core principles that enterprises need in making sure that they have secure platforms, they maintain over a long period of time, and they have a robust ecosystem that surrounds that. Those are the things that customers will always value, regardless of what level of a stack that they're investing in, and so by starting at, you know, the open source level and helping innovate in the technologies there, but bringing that in a way that customers can consume, that our partners can work with, and also gives them the extra value of what's happening in the new generation technologies, like containers and like Kubernetes, where we're actively participating, leading a lot of the development projects in the community around. Our focus is very much on taking those same core principles and making them applicable to anything new that gets developed. >> So Mike, talk to us about these core principles a little bit more. Red Hat, developer driven organization. You guys are deep in open source, from Linux to Kubernetes, to projects people have never heard of. Talk about the value that you bring to businesses, being able to have that developer driven focus internally, and starting to shift the conversation from just infrastructure, Linux, traditional, just keeping the lights on types of technologies to these new technologies, like Open Shift. How has the conversations changed? >> So certainly, you know, the developers now are actively engaged in the design of the systems and the products, not just the application that they develop, but the tools that they need, and our experience in working in the Linux community, where we were dealing with, certainly, open source developers on the Colonel and all the surrounding infrastructure, the thousands of projects that are there, we're taking that and applying it to what's happening in this application and container application space, so being able to engage those developers and say, what frameworks do you need? What tools do you need? What reliability levels do you need in these types of frameworks? Certainly provides a mechanism for them to engage, both with the community, but come to Red Hat for working with a company that can actually make that something that we will support for a longer period of time, that they can build their applications for, and also trust that they will have a strong support path through Red Hat that works upstream in the community to take any innovations that they need and be able to put them in the community as well as the supported products that we provide. >> So developer driven organization, talking to developers. Where's the grown ups in the rooms? The infrastructure of guys. So Red Hat has been known to take open source projects that can move extremely fast, Linux Colonel is an example of it, and make them enterprise ready, enterprise stable. How are you guys doing that with these developer tools, such as Kubernetes, that I frankly can't keep up with all the innovation happening in that space. How do you guys make something like Kubernetes enterprise ready? >> So this is kind of the beauty of a lot of what we do, right? So we work with and we hire the best developers we can find in the market to own projects, to be key contributors to those. Kubernetes is a great example. It was the Colonel in the early days for Linux, now it's in the Kubernetes space, but just as importantly, being able to say, you continue that innovative work in the community, but also make sure that we have reliable products that are fully tested by our, and backed by our support staff, that customers can, when they purchase into this ecosystem, can absolutely rely on, and if you look at what we've done, starting with Red Hat Enterprise Linux, we leaned how to move in that bifurcated market, where you're dealing with open source innovation, but also having to answer to customers that want to make sure that things are always up, always secure, and always stable, and it's that bifurcated model that we've relied on, and this is why when we look at open source, we consider our development model, we don't consider our business model, and that's very important. >> Mike, I want to get your thoughts on business architecture and technical architecture. I was having a debate last night at the analyst happy hour with a couple analysts, and I won't say their names, protect the innocent. We made a joke that said if you had to pick a parachute in 10 seconds, Amazon, Microsoft, or Google, which one would you grab? And of course this one analyst said, well it depends, so of course it depends. Just a thought exercise. I mean no one's going to pick any cloud in 10 seconds, but it makes you think, but the depends conversation does matter. Legacy, whether it's open source software or preexisting conditions of the data center or cloud, plays into it, but cloud is a new architecture. There are no walls, there's no perimeter, so how are you guys advising your customers to lay out the business architecture, the technical architecture, what's the playbook? Because a lot of CXOs are like scratching their head. I need a parachute, I need, it needs to open when I need it. I need the cloud now. >> Yeah, our core message to all of our customers in the market at large is really around hybrid, and that applies to both on premise and off premise, but it also means multiple clouds, right, and certainly when we partner with somebody like Amazon, we're focused on how can we build the best possible relationship and the best possible technical and business environment for customers to engage with that partner? And we did this, back in May we announced working with Amazon on Open Shift and we just launched, I think it was last week, Open Shift 3.7 that has service brokers integrated into Open Shift container platform so customers can actually deploy on premise Open Shift and use Amazon services remotely through their Open Shift applications, but our focus in that is to make sure that they have an open environment, just like we did at the beginning with REL, to say it works on all OEMs, now our focus is REL, Open Shift. It's available on all public clouds. We have over 500 CCSPs, our certified cloud service providers, and make sure that it all works together very well and that customers have choice in the end, and that's really what our focus has been. >> And also, I talked to Andy Jassie last week for an exclusive interview. He said the ecosystem is very robust, but even though they might come out with something, people are standing on their own with value, and it's not like they're trying to compete with the ecosystems, which people have concerns about, so that's kind of cool, I get why he's saying that, but I got to ask you the question. Elastic container service has been doing well. Containers are obviously great architecture, agree. We're expecting to hear elastic Kubernetes service, EKS, coming out this week. Some are speculating. I'm not sure if that's going to be announced, but you can almost imagine a Kubernetes version coming out from Amazon. Google's got their hand in it. So is Kubernetes going to become a political hot potato or is it going to maintain its stability? >> We certainly believe that it was and certainly is being validated now as the standard orchestration platform for containers, right, so we chose. >> That's a general sentiment across the whole community? >> Absolutely. Docker had its support for Kubernetes in the last couple of months, right, and so Amazon, if they choose to do so, great, right, we welcome that and engage, just like when we were doing Linux as our primary product platform, we welcomed, you know, Intel, IBM, everyone else to engage in the community, mature the technologies, and frankly we welcome competition when it comes down to it because that's really what makes things better for customers, and choice is very important. >> So you would agree that Kubernetes had a flash point? It's all good right now. Don't meddle with it. So what do we have to look for to make sure that no one tinkers with it too much and take it off the rails? >> Well I certainly hope they do tinker with it, right. >> John: In a good way. >> In a good way, but the community, and what happens in the open source development realm are really, the bad stuff gets weeded out over time, and you know we work with customers in the community, we make sure that where the community's going, we can reflect that to our customer base, so as Kubernetes matures, as the surrounding technologies for orchestration matures, sorry, for containers matures, we want to make sure we're engaged in those projects and working with a customer. >> John: So competition's good for innovation? >> Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. >> John: I would agree with that. >> So let's talk UpStack a little bit. >> Okay. >> Linux Colonel is Linux Colonel arm, X86. My Linux experience is Linux no matter the platform. Kubernetes, I just heard the same thing. AWS, Google compute, in my own data center, Kubernetes, Kubernetes, Open Shift, helps us to do that. Let's talk about the rest of my applications, my monolithic applications that are not designed for traditional, funny I'm saying this term, traditional Kubernetes, okay. How does Red Hat help with this abundant choice in market across cloud providers outside of Kubernetes? >> Well, one, so I think you need to understand that you know, Linux is not Linux is not Linux, right. Anytime you deploy a platform, whether it's Linux or whether it's Kubernetes, you are committing to something that is on a specific release cycle, that may have specific support statements, that may follow specific open source paths, and you need to beware what you're buying into, and I don't mean that from a financial perspective as much as what are you committing your infrastructure? >> Keith: What's my support model, right? >> So absolutely, Kubernetes is the de facto technology in the same way that Linux is the de facto technology, but you have to make sure that the thing that you're buying is something that you're going to be able to support and support your customers for long term, and so that's why, when just as you were saying earlier, you know we look at what's happening upstream, we absolutely follow that path, but we also want to make sure that customers have a long term support model and we can maintain that in a fiscally responsible way over a period of, likely a decade as we do with REL, right, so when customers buy into that, they're buying into not just the core technologies, but they're buying into everything that surrounds it, and so when you look. >> And you guys vetted it too. A lot of vetting goes on. >> Oh yeah, so you know the release engineering that we do, the working with partners on the releases themselves, all surround that, so we test, you know, Open Shift on public clouds, we test it on hardware, on virtualization. >> John: Red Hat stamp of approval means something. That's the bottom line. >> Yeah, it's not lightweight, and having been there so long, I can tell you it takes a lot of people and effort to make sure that that's there, but surrounding Kubernetes, right, all the dev ops capabilities, all of the, you know, integration, with partners like Amazon, those are the things that make the platform sing and allow a developer to come into the platform and immediately start deploying applications, developing and deploying applications, but also with the knowledge that when they develop from the one, it's actually deployed everywhere, and one of the lines that we've actually matured because we believe it strongly is that, you know, containers are Linux and Linux is REL, right, so when you go down this path, you're not just looking at which Kubernetes or, you know, which platform you want to get into, you're actually looking at what Linux am I going to choose? Because it's all one and the same and our focus has been how do we maintain those core principles of security, reliability, scalability, across this for decades? >> Mike, congratulations. You guys have been a great company to watch over the years, going back decades. Now even more, the Red Hat stamp of approval means something. Final question for you. I wanted to ask, it's a personal question. Put your personal industry tech geek hat on. Your friend's a CIO, CXO in a company, he's a friend, runs development shop for the same company, you're best friends. They ask you, what's going on with this Amazon thing? It's scale, all this stuff. How do I make sense of it? What's your answer? >> So Amazon has, I've been working with Amazon since 2007, and the innovation is not just in the technology. It's in how they do the business, the business models that surround it, and to me that means they're building an entire IT environment, right? It's not just about the software or the service they provide. It's how do you interact with your partners, with your customers. So when you look at Amazon, you're looking at the whole environment about how can I best serve my customers through this entire ecosystem? >> John: Sounds like an operating system to me. >> You know, cloud operating system, you know multiple levels can really come in here. >> It's a holistic picture, basically what you're saying. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> Bigger picture. Okay Mike, thanks for coming on the Cube. Red Hat here, inside the Cube here for day one of live coverage of three days of AWS Re:Invent. I'm chatting with Keith Townsend, your host on set one here. Two sets, so much action, so many announcements, so much to talk about, so many great people here at Re:Invent 2017. We'll bring you more after this short break. (upbeat instrumental music)

>> Live from Las Vegas it's The Cube covering NAB 2017. Brought to you by HGST. >> Welcome back to The Cube. We are live at NAB 2017. I'm Lisa Martin. Very, very excited, kind of geeking out right now to be joined by our next two guests. Sam Blackman, the co-founder and CEO of AWS Elemental, welcome to The Cube. >> Sam: Thank you so much. >> And we have NASA astronaut, Tracy Caldwell Dyson. Both of you, welcome to The Cube. >> Thank you. >> Today has been a very historic day for technology and space. This was the first ever live 4k video stream that happened between you on Earth, Sam, and Doctor Peggy Whitson, aboard the International Space Station. >> Sam: Yes. >> Wow. Tell us about that. >> It was truly amazing to be part of history and the amount of technology that came into play to make this possible. You know, sitting in the conference room in NAB in the middle of Las Vegas, seeing astronauts 250 miles ahead, going around the Earth, 17,000 miles an hour and a seamless, beautiful 4k picture. It was mind blowing. Hard to believe it's happened still. >> I can't even imagine. I'm getting goosebumps for you. Tell us some of the things that Dr. Whitson shared about her experiences. What was the interaction like? >> Well, Commander Whitson and Colonel Fisher was also in the interview and that guy is hilarious, by the way. >> Yeah, he is. >> He is hilarious. They talked about how advanced imaging technology really helps NASA perform experiments and bring experiments that are happening on the space station down to Earth for researchers to use that data and discover how the world works inside the universe. Some of the really interesting examples revolved around some experiments they showed. With thin film technology they had a very small, metallic structure that they could pull water out of and then corral that water, convert it into a spherical shape and in the 4k resolution, you could just see every element of that thin film in a way that looked like it was right next to us. I mean, it was transformative. >> Tracy: Yeah. >> I bet it was. Well, speaking of transformative, this was, I mentioned, a really historic event for a number of reasons. Obviously, for those of us on the ground, for AWS Elemental. But, Tracy, from your perspective, you've been in space for 188... I had it here somewhere, hours. >> Yeah, days. >> You've been on STS118, you've been on the Soyuz to the station on expeditions 23 and 24. What does this capability now mean in the life of an astronaut? >> I think what it does is it helps us bring the experience to everybody here on Earth. It is so hard to capture what we are not just seeing, but experiencing. The richness, the detail, the vividness of the colors and how they're changing are all a part of looking at our beautiful planet. And just from that alone, being able to bring that to the American people, the world, really, is, I think to me a great relief. Because it grieves me to think about how in the world I would describe this beautiful, magnificent view to everybody back home. >> I can imagine. You've done extra-vehicular space walks. >> Tracy: Yes. >> And I can imagine it's indescribable. >> It is. And from the fact you're looking at our planet from 250 miles above, you see the curvature of the Earth, you see it moving at a super high speed, you don't feel the wind in your face, but there's no doubt you're traveling very fast. Just the fact that you are out in the vacuum of space. If you could bring parts of that experience to people back home ... I'm excited to think about how that would transform just the way people think, not to mention the way that they act towards our planet. >> I also think inspiration ... We were talking before we went on that you were about 14 when the Challenger incident happened, we all kind of remember exactly where we were, and that really, a teacher being in space was so inspirational to you. Can you imagine shifting the conversation and what this technology is able to do inspiring the next generation of people that want to be the next Tracy Caldwell Dyson? >> Well, I think what the technology does today, especially in imaging capabilities, is it provides so much more detail than I could even describe. That a young person today watching that, and our generation today is so visual, that they're going to pick up on things that I wouldn't even think to describe to them. And it's going to capture their imagination in ways that are astounding. Compared to I, who, just the sheer knowledge of knowing there was a teacher that was going into space, propelled me to work really hard. I can only imagine what this generation's going to be capable of because of the images that we're bringing to them. >> It's so exciting. Sam, this is really kind of the tip of the iceberg. From AWS Elemental's perspective, first of all, you just had a rebrand. But what does this mean for the future of the video ecosystem? >> Well, I think it really shows you how the technology components came come together to create unbelievable pictures no matter where you are on the planet or in space. We had a live 4k encoder on the space station itself sending down signals to Johnson Space Center, then Johnson Space Center sending redundant links to Las Vegas, here, and the convention center. And then processing the video, the interview with Tracy, here in the space center-- or, here in NAB and then using the cloud to distribute that all over the world. So these 4k images, which take a significant amount of bandwidth, can be created in space, delivered here, produced and delivered anywhere in the world using the power of the cloud and advanced networking technology. And that's pretty amazing, when you think about it. >> Lisa: It really is. I don't think the three of us are smiling big enough. >> I know. It hurts! >> There's so much relief in this face. >> Lisa: I can imagine >> I bet. >> I absolutely can imagine, I think. One of the cool things about-- This is our first time at NAB with The Cube, but we're here: Media, entertainment, Hollywood. What this shows is this transcendence of technology to space. And there's so much interest in space. In fact, Tracy, you were an advisor to Jessica Chastain on "The Martian," which is probably pretty exciting. >> Oh, absolutely. It is. >> But just the transcendence of that and how this technology can be used to power things that everybody can understand, movies and things. But also the future of space exploration, which I can imagine, right now in the era of the space shuttle being retired now, depending on Soyuz rockets to get to the space station as the next vehicle is delivered, this must be quite inspirational for you as an astronaut, as not only is the next vehicle in development, but also, the exploration of Mars. In fact, you were just last month with President Trump. >> Tracy: Yes. >> As they signed a bill. What are your thoughts about that and how do you see imaging technology being an instrumental part of Mars exploration? >> In so many ways, but at the top is the momentum. Like you said, with Hollywood has captured space in some real endearing ways. And the images from NASA, from the human space flight program to Hubble to deep space, it is propelling ... it's momentum. And I think we need that momentum, especially with our young folks because they're going to be the ones, let's face it, who are going to be in the best condition to be on the planet of Mars. So, if we can continue to feed them the images as lifelike as we can, so that they feel they're there, I think we are heading in the right direction to actually being there. >> Wow, fantastic! Congratulations to both of you. Thank you both so much for joining us on The Cube. We can't wait to see what's next. >> Sam: Thank you so much. >> Tracy: Thank you. Thank you. >> Well, for Tracy and Sam, I'm Lisa Martin. You've been watching The Cube live from NAB 2017. Stick around, we'll be right back. (funky music)