>>Welcome to this Q conversation. I'm Dave Nicholson. And today we are joined by Andrew ish and Chris Y Moran, both from Gentech. Andrew is the vice president of marketing. Chris John is the, uh, vice president of product engineering, gentlemen, welcome to the cube. >>Welcome David. Thanks for having us. Hey, >>David, thanks for having us on your show. >>Absolutely. Give us just, let's start out by, uh, giving us some background on, on Gentech. How would you describe to a relative coming over and asking you what you do for a living? What Genotech does? >>Well, I'll take a shot at that. I'm the marketing guy, David, but, uh, I think the best way to think of Genotech first and foremost is a software company. We, uh, we do a really good job of bringing together all of that physical security sensor network onto a platform. So people can make sense out of the data that comes from video surveillance, cameras, access control, reads, license plate recognition, cameras, and from a whole host of different sensors that can live out there in the world. Temperature, sensors, microwaves, all sorts of stuff. So we're a company that's really good at making sense of complex data from sensors. That's kind of, I think that's kind of what we >>Do and, and, and we focus specifically on like larger, complex, critical infrastructure type projects, whether they be airports, uh, large enterprise campuses and whatnot. So we're not necessarily your well known consumer type brand. >>So you mentioned physical, you mentioned physical security. Um, what about the intersection between physical security and, and cyber security who are, who are the folks that you work with directly as customers and where do they, where do they sit in that spectrum of cyber versus physical? >>So we predominantly work with physical security professionals and, uh, they typically are responsible for the security of a facility, a campus, a certain area. And we'll talk about security cameras. We'll talk about access control devices with card readers and, and, and locks, uh, intrusion detection, systems, fences, and whatnot. So anything that you would see that physically protects a facility. And, uh, what's actually quite interesting is that, you know, cybersecurity, we, we hear about cybersecurity and depressed all the time, right. And who's been hacked this week is typically like, uh, a headline that we're all like looking at, uh, we're looking for in the news. Um, so we actually do quite a lot of, I would say education work with the physical security professional as it pertains to the importance of cyber security in the physical security system, which in and of itself is an information system. Right. Um, so you don't wanna put a system in place to protect your facility that is full of cybersecurity holes because at that point, you know, your physical security systems becomes, uh, your weakest link in your security chain. Uh, the way I like to say it is, you know, there's no such thing as physical security versus cyber security, it's just security. Uh, really just the concept or a context of what threat vectors does this specific control or mechanism actually protects against >>Those seem to be words to live by, but are, are they aspirational? I mean, do you, do you see gaps today, uh, between the worlds of cyber and physical security? >>I mean, for sure, right? Like we, physical security evolved from a different part of the enterprise, uh, structure then did it or cyber security. So they, they come at things from a different angle. Um, so, you know, for a long time, the two worlds didn't really meet. Uh, but now what we're seeing, I would say in the last 10 years, Christian, about that, there's a huge convergence of cyber security with physical security. It, so information technology with operation technology really coming together quite tightly in the industry. And I think leading companies and sophisticated CISOs are really giving a big pitcher thought to what's going on across the organization, not just in cybersecurity. >>Yeah. I think we've come a long way from CCTV, which stands for closed circuit television, uh, which was typically like literally separated from the rest of the organization, often managed by the facilities, uh, part of any organization. Uh, and now we're seeing more and more organizations where this is converging together, but there's still ways to go, uh, to get this proper convergence in place. But, you know, we're getting there. >>How, how does Gentech approach its addressable market? Is this, is this a direct model? Uh, do you work with partners? What, what does that look like in your world? >>Well, we're a, we're a partner led company Gentech, you know, model on many friends is all about our partners. So we go to market through our integration channel. So we work with really great integrators all around the world. Um, and they bring together our software platform, which is usually forms the nucleus of sort of any O T security network. Uh, they bring that together with all sorts of other things, such as the sensor network, the cabling, all of that. It's a very complex multiplayer world. And also in that, you know, partnership ecosystem and Christian, this is more your world. We have to build deep integrations with all of these companies that build sensors, whether that's access, Bosch, Canon, uh, Hanoi, you know, we're, we're really working with them them. And of course with our storage and server partners >>Like Dell >>Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Yeah. So we have, we have like hundreds of, I would say ecosystem partners, right? Camera manufacturers, uh, access control reader, controller manufacturers, intrusion detection, manufacturers, late LIDAR radar, you know, the list goes on and on and on. And, and basically we bring this all together. The system integrator really is going to pick best of breed based on a specific end customer's I would say requirements and then roll out the system. According >>That's very interesting, you know, at, at Silicon angle on the cube, um, we've initiated coverage of this subject of the question, does hardware still matter? And, and you know, of course we're, we're approaching that primarily from kind of the traditional it, uh, perspective, but you said at the outset, you you're a software company mm-hmm <affirmative>, but clearly correct me if I'm wrong, your software depends upon all of these hardware components and as they improve, I imagine you can do things that maybe you couldn't do before those improvements. The first thing that comes to mind is just camera resolution. Um, you know, sort of default today is 4k, uh, go back five years, 10 years. I imagine that some of the sophisticated things that you can do today weren't possible because the hardware was lagging. Is that, is that a, is that a fair assessment? >>Oh, that's a fair assessment. Just going back 20 years ago. Uh, just VGA resolution on a security camera was like out of this world resolution, uh, even more so if it was like full motion, 30 images per second. So you typically have like, probably even like three 20 by 2 44 images per second, like really lousy resolution, just from a resolution perspective, the, the imagery sensors have, have really increased in terms of what they can provide, but even more so is the horsepower of these devices. Mm-hmm, <affirmative> now it's not uncommon to have, uh, pretty, pretty powerful Silicon in those devices now that can actually run machine learning models and you can actually do computer vision and analytics straight into the device. Uh, as you know, in some of the initial years, you would actually run this on kind of racks of servers in this data center. >>Now you can actually distribute those workloads across on the edge. And what we're seeing is, you know, the power that the edge provides is us as a software company, we have the opportunity to actually bring our workloads where it makes most sense. And in some cases we'll actually also have a ground station kind of in between the sensors and potentially the cloud, uh, because the use case just, uh, calls for it. Uh, just looking from a, from a, from a video security perspective, you know, when you have hundreds or thousands of cameras on an airport, it's just not economical or not even feasible in some cases to bring all that footage to the cloud even more so when 99% of that footage is never watched by anybody. So what's the point. Uh, so you just wanna provide the clips that, that actually do matter to the cloud and for longer term retention, you also want to be able to have sometimes more resilient systems, right? So what happens if the cloud disconnects, you can stop the operations of that airport or stop that operations of that, of that prison, right? It needs to continue to operate and therefore you need higher levels of resiliency. So you do need that hardware. So it's really a question of what it calls for and having the right size type of hardware so that you don't overly complexify the installation, uh, and, and actually get the job done. Are >>You comparing airports to prisons >>Christian? Well, nowadays they're pretty much prepared <laugh>, >>But I mean, this is exactly it, David, but I mean, this payload, especially from the video surveillance, like the, the workload that's going through to the, these ground stations really demands flexible deployment, right? So like we think about it as edge to cloud and, uh, you know, that's, what's really getting us excited because it, it gives so much more flexibility to the, you know, the C I S O and security professionals in places like prisons, airports, also large scale retail and banking, and, uh, other places, >>Universities, the list goes on and on and on, and >>On the flexibility of deployment just becomes so much easier because these are lightweight, you usually word deploying on a Linux box and it can connect seamlessly with like large scale head end storage or directly to, uh, cloud providers. It's, it's really a sophisticated new way of looking at how you architect out these networks. >>You've just given, you've just given a textbook example of why, uh, folks in the it world have been talking about hybrid cloud for, for, for such a long time, and some have scoffed at the idea, but you just, you just present a perfect use case for that combination of leveraging cloud with, uh, on-premises hardware and tracking with hardware advances, um, uh, on, on the subject of camera resolution. I don't know if you've seen this meme, but there's a great one with the, the first deep field image from the, from the, I was gonna say humble, the James web space telescope, uh, in contrast with a security camera F photo, which is really blurry of someone in your driveway <laugh>, uh, which is, which is, uh, sort of funny. The reality though, is I've seen some of these latest generation security cameras, uh, you know, beyond 4k resolution. And it's amazing just, you know, the kind of detail that you can get into, but talk about what what's, what's exciting in your world. What's, what's Gentech doing, you know, over the next, uh, several quarters that's, uh, particularly interesting what's on the leading edge of your, of your world. >>Well, I think right now what's on the leading edges is being driven by our end users. So the, so the, the companies, the governments, the organizations that are implementing our software into these complex IOT networks, they wanna do more with that data, right? It's not just about, you know, monitoring surveillance. It's not just about opening and closing doors or reading license plates, but more and more we're seeing organizations taking this bigger picture view of the data that is generated in their organizations and how they can take value out of existing investments that they've made in sensor networks, uh, and to take greater insight into operations, whether that can be asset utilization, customer service efficiency, it becomes about way more than just, you know, either physical security or cyber security. It becomes really an enterprise shaping O T network. And to us, that is like a massive, massive opportunity, uh, in the, in the industry today. >>Yeah. >>Now you're you're you're oh, go ahead. I'm sorry, Christian, go ahead. Yeah, >>No, it's, it's, it's good. But, you know, going back to a comment that I mentioned earlier about how it was initially siloed and now, you know, we're kind of discovering this diamond in the rough, in terms of all these sensors that are out there, which a lot of organizations didn't even know existed or didn't even know they had. And how can you bring that on kind of across the organizations for non-security related applications? So that's kind of one very interesting kind of, uh, direction that we're, that we've been undergoing for the last few years, and then, you know, security, uh, and physical security for that matter often is kind of the bastard step child. Doesn't get all the budget and, you know, there's lots of opportunities for, to help them increase and improve their operations, uh, as, as Andrew pointed out and really help bringing them into the 21st century. >>Yeah. >>And you're, you're headquartered in Montreal, correct? >>Yes. >>Yeah. So, so the reason, the reason why that's interesting is because, um, and, you know, correct me if I'm, if I'm off base here, but, but you're sort of the bridge between north America and Europe. Uh, and, and, uh, and so you sit at that nexus where, uh, you probably have more of an awareness of, uh, trends in security, which overlap with issues of privacy. Yeah. Where Europe has led in a lot of cases. Um, some of those European like rules are coming to north America. Um, is there anything in your world that is particularly relevant or that concerns you about north America catching up, um, or, or do those worlds of privacy and security not overlap as much as I might think they do? >>Ah, thank you. Any >>Thoughts? >>Absolutely not. No, no. <laugh> joking aside. This is, this is, this is, >>Leave me hanging >><laugh>, uh, this is actually core to our DNA. And, and, and we, we often say out loud how, like Europe has really paved the way for a different way, uh, of, of looking at privacy from a security setting, right. And they're not mutually exclusive. Right. You can have high security all while protecting people's privacy. And it's all of a question of ensuring that, you know, how you kind of, I would say, uh, ethically, uh, use said technology and we can actually put some safeguards in it. So to minimize the likelihood of there being abuse, right? There's, there's something that we do, which we call the privacy protector, which, you know, for all intents and purposes, it's not that complex of an idea. It's, it's really the concept of you have security cameras in a public space or a more sensitive location. And you have your security guards that can actually watch that footage when nothing really happens. >>You, you want to protect people's privacy in these situations. Uh, however, you still want to be able to provide a view to the security guard so they can still make out that, you know, there there's actually people walking around or there's a fight that broke out. And in the likelihood that something did happen, then you can actually view the overall footage. So, and with, with the details that the cameras that you had, you know, the super high mega pixel cameras that you have will provide. So we blur the images of the individuals. We still keep the background. And once you have the proper authorization, and this is based on the governance of the organization, so it can be a four I principle where it could be the chief security officer with the chief privacy officer need to authorize this footage to be kind of UN blurred. And at that point you can UN blur the footage and provide it to law enforcement for the investigation, for example. >>Excellent. I've got Andrew, if you wanted, then I, then I'm. Well, so I, I've a, I have a final question for you. And this comes out of a game that, uh, some friends and I, some friends of mine and I devised over the years, primarily this is played with strangers that you meet on airplanes as you're traveling. But the question you ask is in your career, what you're doing now and over the course of your careers, um, what's the most shocking thing <laugh> that people would learn from what, you know, what do you, what do you find? What's the craziest thing. When you go in to look at these environments that you see that people should maybe address, um, well, go ahead and start with you, Andrew. >>I, >>The most shocking thing you see every day in your world, >>It's very interesting. The most shocking thing I think we've seen in the industry is how willing, uh, some professionals are in our industry to install any kind of device on their networks without actually taking the time to do due diligence on what kind of security risks these devices can have on a network. Because I think a lot of people don't think about a security camera as first and foremost, a computer, and it's a computer with an IP address on a network, and it has a visual sensor, but we always get pulled in by that visual sensor. Right. And it's like, oh, it's a camera. No, it's a computer. And, you know, over the last, I would say eight years in the industry, we've spent a lot of time trying to sensitize the industry to the fact that, you know, you can't just put devices on your, your network without understanding the supply chain, without understanding the motives behind who's put these together and their track record of cybersecurity. So probably the weirdest thing that I've seen in my, um, you know, career in this industry is just the willingness of people not to take time to do due diligence before they hook something up on onto their corporate network where, you know, data can start leaking out, being exfiltrated by those devices and malevolent actors behind them. So gotta ask questions about what you put on your network. >>Christian, did he steal your, did he steal your thunder? Do you have any other, any other thoughts? >>Well, so first of all, there's things I just cannot say on TV. Okay. But you can't OK. >>You can't. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Saying that you're shocked that not everyone speaks French doesn't count. Okay. Let's just get, let's get past that, but, but go, but yeah, go ahead. Any thoughts? >>So, uh, you know, I, I would say something that I I've seen a lot and, and specifically with customers sometimes that were starting to shop for a new system is you'd be surprised by first of all, there's a camera, the likelihood of actually somebody watching it live while you're actually in the field of view of that camera is close to Neil first and foremost, second, there's also a good likelihood that that camera doesn't even record. It actually is not even functional. And, and I would say a lot of organizations often realize that, you know, that camera was not functioning when they actually knew do need to get the footage. And we've seen this with some large incidents, uh, very, uh, bad incidents that happened, uh, whether in the UK or in Boston or whatnot, uh, when they're, when law enforcement is trying to get footage and they realize that a lot of cameras actually weren't recording and, and, and goes back to Andrew's point in terms of the selection process of these devices. >>Yeah. Image resolution is important, like, because you need an, an image that it actually usable so that you can actually do something with it forensically, but you know, these cameras need to be recorded by a reliable system and, and should something happen with the device. And there's always going to be something, you know, power, uh, uh, a bird ate the lens. I don't know what it might be, or squirrel ate the wire. Um, and the camera doesn't work anymore. So you have to replace it. So having a system that provides, you know, you with like health insights in terms of, of, of if it's working or not is, is actually quite important. It needs to be managed like any it environment, right? Yeah. You have all these devices and if one of them goes down, you need to manage it. And most organizations it's fire and forget, I sign a purchase order. I bought my security system, I installed it. It's done. We move on to the next one and seven years later, something bad happens. And like, uhoh, >>It's not a CCTV system. It's a network. Yeah. Life cycle management counts. >>Well, uh, I have to say on that, uh, I'm gonna be doing some research on Canadian birds and squirrels. I, I had no idea, >>Very hungry. >>Andrew, Chris, John, thank you so much. Great conversation, uh, from all of us here at the cube. Thanks for tuning in. Stay tuned. The cube from Silicon angle media, we are your leader in tech coverage.

(bright upbeat music) >> Announcer: From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is theCUBE Conversation. >> Well happy New Year, one and all welcome to 2021 in Cube Conversation continuing our ongoing series. I hope your New Year is off to a great start. I know that the end of 2020 was a very good one for Ivanti. And Jim Schaper, the CEO is going to join us to talk about that as is Nayaki Nayyar, or rather the EVP and the Chief Product Officer. So Nayaki and Jim, good to have you here with you on theCUBE and Happy New Year to you. >> Thank you, John. Happy New Year to you. 2020, I think for a lot of us couldn't get out of here quick enough. Although we had some great things happen to our company at the very end of the year. So anxious to talk to you about it and we appreciate the opportunity. >> You bet. So we're talking about two major acquisitions that you made that both closed near the end of the year back in December, not too long ago. One with Pulse Secure, the other with MobileIron. Two companies that provide you with additional expertise in terms of mobile security and the enterprise security space. And so Jim, if you would, let's first talk about just for the big picture, the acquisitions that were made and what those moves will do for you going forward. >> Okay, great, John. We closed both acquisitions interestingly enough, on December 2nd. We've been fortunate to have them part of our company now for about the last 30 days. One of the things that we made a decision on a number of months ago was that we had a real opportunity in the markets that we serve to really build our business more quickly through a series of acquisitions that strategically made sense for us, our investors and more importantly our customers. And that really is why we chose MobileIron and Pulse, for different reasons but nonetheless all very consistent with our longterm strategy of securing the end points on every network, in every location around the world. And so consequently, when you think about it and we've all witnessed here over the last 30 days or so, all of the security breaches, all of the things that go along with that, and our real focus is ensuring that every company and every individual on their network, outside their firewall, inside their firewall, on any device is secure. And so with these two particular acquisitions, in addition to the assets that we already had as a part of Ivanti, really puts us in a competitively advantaged position to deliver to the edge, and Nayaki will talk about this. The ability to secure those devices and ensure that they're secure from phishing expeditions or breaches or all of those kinds of things. So these two particular acquisitions really puts us on the map and puts us in a leadership position in the security market. So we're thrilled to have both of them. >> Before I go off to Nayaki, I want to follow with the point that you've made Jim talking about security breaches. We're all well aware. You know, the news from what we've been hearing out from the federal level about the state actors and the kind of these infiltrations of major US systems if not international systems. Some Interpol data, I read 207 some odd percent increase in breaches just in the post COVID time or in the COVID time, the past year. That gets your attention, does it not? And what does that say to you about the aggressive nature of these kinds of activities? >> Well, that they're getting more sophisticated every day and they're getting more aggressive. I think one of the most frightening conversations I had was a briefing with our chief security officer about how many attempted breaches of our network and our systems that he sees every single day. And we're able to identify what foreign actors are really trying to penetrate our systems or what are they trying to do. But the one thing I will leave you with is they're becoming much more sophisticated, whether you're inside the firewall or whether you're on your iPhone as an extension of the network, there the level of sophistication is startling. And unfortunately in many cases, as evidenced by the recent breaches, you don't even know you've had a breach for could be months, weeks, days. And so what damage is done. And so as we look forward, and as Nayaki kind of walks you through our product strategy, what you're going to hear a lot of is how do we self protect? How do we self-learn the devices at the edge, on the end of the networks, such that they can recognize foreign actors or any breach capability that somebody is trying to employ? And so, yeah, it's frightening how sophisticated and how frequent they have become. >> I think the one thing that really struck me as I read about the breaches was not so much the damage that has been done, but the damage that could be done prospectively and about which we have no idea. You don't know, it's like somebody lurking in your closet and they're going to stay there for a couple of months and wait for the time that maybe your guard is even more down. So I was, that's what shocks me. And they Nayaki, let's talk about your strategy then. You picked up obviously a couple of companies, one in the, kind of the enterprise IT space. Now the one in the VPN space, add into your already extensive portfolio. So I imagine from your office, wearing the hat of the chief product officer, you're just to look in your chops right now. You've got a lot more resources at your disposal. >> Yeah, we are very very busy John, but to Jim's point, one of the trends we are seeing in the market as we enter into the post COVID era, where everyone is working from anywhere, be it from home, be it from office, while on the move, every organization, every enterprise is struggling with this. What we call this explosive growth of devices. Devices being mobile devices, client-based devices, IoT devices, the data that is being generated from these devices, and to your point, the cybersecurity threats. It is predicted that there has been 30000% increase in the cybersecurity threats that are being targeted primarily at the remote workers. So you can imagine whether it's phishing attacks, malware attacks, I mean just an explosive growth of devices, data, cybersecurity attacks at the remote workers. So organizations need automation to be able to address this growth and this complexity which is where Ivanti's focus in discovering all the devices and managing those devices. So as we bring the MobileIron portfolio and Ivanti's portfolio together, now we can help our customers manage every type of devices be it Windows devices, Mac devices, Linux, iOS, Android devices, and secure those devices. The zero trust access that users need, the remote users need, all the way from cloud access to the endpoint is what the strength of both MobileIron and Pulse brings to our entire portfolio holistically. So we are truly excited for our customers. Now they can leverage our entire end to end stack to discover, manage secure and service all those devices that they now have to service for their employees. >> Explain to me, or just walk me through zero trust in terms of how you define that. I've read about trust nothing, verify everything, those kinds of explanations. But if you would, from your perspective, what does zero trust encompass, not only on your side, but on your client's side? Because you want to give them tools to do things for themselves to self heal and self serve and those kinds of things. >> So, zero trust is you don't trust anything. You validate and certify everything. So the access users have on your network, the access they have on the mobile devices, the applications they are accessing, the data that they are accessing. So being able to validate every access that they have when they come into your network is what the whole zero trust access really means. So, the combination of Ivanti's portfolio and also Pulse that zero trust access all the way from as users are accessing that network data, cloud data, endpoint data, is where our entire zero trust access truly differentiates. And as we bring that with our UEM portfolio with the MobileIron, there is no other vendor in the market that has that holistic offering, internal offering. >> I'm sorry, go ahead, please. >> It's interesting, John, you talk about timing is everything, right? And when we began discussions with MobileIron, it was right before COVID hit. And we had a great level of expertise inside the pre-acquisition of Ivanti to be able to secure the end points at the desktop level. But we struggled a bit with having all of the capabilities that we needed to manage mobile devices and tablets and basically anything that is attached to the network. That's what they really brought to us. And having done a number of acquisitions historically in my career, this was probably the easiest integration that we had simply because we did what they didn't do and they did what we didn't do. And then they brought some additional technologies. But what's really changed in the environment because of this work from home or work from anywhere as as we like to articulate it, is you've got multiple environments that you've got to manage. It isn't just, what's on the end of the VPN, the network, it's what's on the end points of the cloud. What kind of cloud are you running? You're running a public cloud, you're running a private cloud. Is it a hybrid environment? And so the ability to and the need to be able to do that is pretty significant. And so that's one of the real advantages that both the Pulse as well as the MobileIron acquisitions really brought to the combined offering from a product standpoint. >> Yeah, I'd like to follow up on that then, just because the cloud environment provides so many benefits, obviously, but it also provides this huge layer of complexity that comes on top of all this because you just talked about it. You can have public, you can have hybrid cloud, you can have on-prem, whatever, right? You have all these options. And yet you, Ivanti, are having to provide security on multiple levels and multiple platforms or multiple environments. And how much more complex or challenging is your mission now because of consumer demand and the capabilities the technology is providing your clients. >> Well, it's certainly more complex and Nayaki is better equipped to probably talk in detail about this. But if you just take a step back and think about it, you think about internet of things, right? I used to have a thermostat. And that thermostat control was controlled by the thermostat on the wall. Now everything is on WiFi. If I've got a problem, I had a a problem with a streaming music capability which infected other parts of my home network. And so everything is, that's just one example of how complicated and how wired everything is really become. Except when it comes to the mobile devices, which are still always remote. You've always got it with you. I don't what it was like for you, John, but you know, historically I've used my phone on email, texts and phone calls. Now it's actually a business tool. But it's a remote business tool that you still have to secure, you still have to manage and you still have to find an identify on the end of the network. That's where we really come into play. Nayaki, anything you want to add to that? >> Yeah, so, to Jim's point, John, and to your question also, as customers have what we call the multi-cloud offering. There are public clouds, private clouds, on-prem data centers, devices on the edge, and as you extend into the IOT world, being able to provide that seamless access, this is a zero trust access all the way from the cloud applications to the applications that are running on-prem, in your data centers and also the applications that are running on your devices and the IoT applications, is what that entire end to end zero trust access, is where our competitive strength resides with Pulse coming into our portfolio. Before Ivanti didn't have this. We were primarily a patch management vendor in the security space, but now we truly extend beyond that patch to this end to end access all the way from cloud to edge is what we call. And then when we combine that with our UEM portfolio in our endpoint management with MobileIron and also service management, that convergence of positive three pillars is where we truly differentiate and compete and win in the market. >> Nayaki, how does internet of things factor into this? Cause I look at sensor technology, I'm just thinking about all the billions of what you have now, right? With whether it's farming or agricultural inputs, business inputs, meteorological, or whatever. I'm sure, you're considering this as well as part of a major play of yours in terms of providing IoT security. How more proliferated is that now and how much of that is kind of in your concern zone you might say? >> Yeah, absolutely. So, just taking these trends we have in managing the end points, we will extend that into the IoT world also. John, when we say IoT world, in an industry where the devices are like healthcare devices. So, stay tuned, in January release we'll be releasing how we will be discovering managing and securing for the healthcare devices like Siemens devices, Bayer devices, Canon devices. So, you're spot on how we can leverage the strength we have in managing end points. Also IoT devices, that same capabilities that we can bring to each of the industry verticals. Now we're not trying to solve the entire vertical market but certain industry verticals where we have a strong footprint. Healthcare is a strong footprint for us. Telcos is a strong footprint for us. So that's where you will see us extending into those IoT devices too. >> Okay, so, in going forward, Jim, if you would just, let's talk about your 2021 in terms of how you further integrate these offerings that you've acquired right now. All of a sudden you've got 30 days of, you know, which is snap of a finger. But what do you see how 2021 is going to lay out, especially with distributed workforces, right? We know that's here. That's a new normal. And with a whole new set of demands on networks and certainly the need for security. >> That's exactly correct, John. I mean, everything is changed and it's never going back to the way it was. You know, everybody has their own definition of the new normal. I guess my definition is at some point in time when things do return to some form of normality, a portion of our workforce will always work from home. To what degree remains to be seen. I don't think we're different from virtually any other industry or any other company. It does put increased demands ,complexity and requirements around how you run your internal IT business. But as Nayaki talked about kind of our virtual service desk offering where you're not going to have a service desk anymore. It's got to be virtual. Well, you have to be able to still provide those services outside of your normal network. And so that's going to be a continued big push for us. I'm incredibly pleased with the way in which the employee bases of the acquired companies have really folded in and become one with our company. And I think as we all recognize cultural differences between organizations can be quite significant and an impediment to really moving forward. Fortunately for us, we have found that both of these organizations fit really nicely from an employee, from a values perspective, from a goals and objectives perspective. And so we did most of the heavy lifting on all the integration shortly after we closed the transactions on the 2nd of December. And so we've moved beyond what I would call the normal kind of concerns and asked around what's going to happen in this and that. We're now kind of heads down in what's the long-term integration going to look like from a product standpoint. We're already looking at additional acquisitions that will continue to take us deeper and wider into our three product pillars, as Nayaki described. And that'll be an ongoing kind of steady dose of acquisitions as we continue to supplement our organic growth within organic growth. >> But you've got to answer my question. I was going to ask you, you founded the company four years ago. There were two big acquisitions back in 2017. We waited four years Jim, until you dip back into that pole again. So the plan, maybe not to wait four years before moving on. >> No trust me, you won't be waiting another four years. Now you've got to bear in mind, John. I wasn't here four years ago. >> That's right, okay. Fair enough. That's okay. I want to thank you both for the time today. Congratulations on sealing those deals back in December and we certainly wish you all the best going forward. And of course, a very happy and a very safe new year for you and yours. >> Same to you, John. Thanks so much for the time. And so it was a pleasure to spend time with you today. >> Thank you, John. Happy New Year again. Thank you. Thank you. (upbeat music)

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 sponsored by Intel, AWS and our community partners. >>Welcome to the cubes coverage of AWS reinvent 2020. The digital version I'm Lisa Martin and I have a couple of Cuba alumni joining me from Wien. We've got Danny Allen. It's C T O and S VP of product strategy And Dave Russell, VP of Enterprise Strategy, is here as well. Danny and a Welcome back to the Cube. >>Hi, Lisa. Great to be here. >>Hey, Lisa. Great to be here. Love talking with this audience >>It and thankfully, because of technologies like this in the zoom, were still able to engage with that audience, even though we would all be gearing up to be Go spending five days in Vegas with what 47,000 of our closest friends across, you know, and walking a lot. But I wanted Thio. Danny, start with you and you guys had them on virtually this summer. That's an event known for its energy. Talk to me about some of the things that you guys announced there. And how are your customers doing with this rapid change toe? work from home and this massive amount of uncertainty. >>Well, certainly no one would have predicted this the beginning of the year. There has been such transformation. There was a statement made earlier this year that we've gone through two years of transformation in just two months, and I would say that is definitely true. If you look both internally and bean our workforce, we have 4400 employees all of a sudden, 3000 of them that had been going into the office or working from home. And that is true of our customer base as well. There's a lot of remote, uh, remote employ, mental remote working, and so that has. You would think it would have impact on the digital systems. But what it's done is it's accelerated the transformation that organizations were going through, and that's been good in a number of different aspects. One certainly cloud adoption of clouds picked up things like Microsoft teams and collaboration software is certainly picked up, so it's certainly been a challenging year on many fronts. But on the on the other hand, it's also been very beneficial for us as well. >>Yeah, I've talked to so many folks in the last few months. There's silver linings everywhere. There's opportunity everywhere. But give our audience standing an overview of who them is, what you do and how you help customers secure their data. >>Sure, so VM has been in the backup businesses. What I'll say We started right around when virtualization was taking off a little before AWS and you see two left computing services on DWI would do back up a virtual environments. You know, over the last decade, we have grown into a $1 billion company doing backup solutions that enable cloud data management. What do you mean by that? Is we do backup of all kinds of different infrastructures, from virtual to cloud based Assad's based to physical systems, You name it. And then when we ingest that data, what we do is we begin to manage it. So an example of this is we have 400,000 customers, they're going back up on premises. And one of the things that we've seen this year is this massive push of that backup data into S three into the public cloud and s. So this is something that we help our customers with as they go through this transformation. >>And so you've got a team for a ws Cloud native solution. Talk to me a little bit about that. And how does that allow business is to get that centralized view of virtual physical SAS applications? >>Yeah, I think it all starts with architecture er and fundamentally beams, architectures. ER is based upon having a portable data format that self describing. So what >>does >>that mean? That means it reduces the friction from moving data that might have been born on premises to later being Stan Shih ated in, say, the AWS cloud. Or you can also imagine now new workloads being born in the cloud, especially towards the middle and end of this year. A lot of us we couldn't get into our data center. We had to do everything remotely. So we had to try to keep those lights on operationally. But we also had to begin to lift and shift and accelerate your point about silver linings. You know, if there is a silver lining, the very prepared really benefited. And I think those that were maybe a little more laggards they caught up pretty quickly. >>Well, that's good to hear stick big sticking with you. I'd love to get your perspectives on I t challenges in the last nine months in particular, what things have changed, what remains the same. And where is back up as a priority for the the I T folks and really the business folks, too? >>Yeah, I almost want to start with that last piece. Where? Where's backup? So back up? Obviously well understood as a concept, it's well funded. I mean, almost everybody in their right mind has a backup product, especially for critical data. But yet that all sounds very much the same. What's very, very different, though? Where are those workloads? Where do they need to be going forward? What are the service level agreements? Meaning that access times required for those workloads? And while we're arguably transitioning from certain types of applications to new applications, the vast majority of us are dead in the middle of that. So we've got to be able to embrace the new while also anchoring back to the past. >>Yeah, I'm not so easily sudden, done professionally or personally, Danny, I'd love to get your perspective on how your customer conversations have changed. You know, we're executives like you, both of you are so used to getting on planes and flying around and being able Thio, engage with your customers, especially events like Vermont, and reinvent What's the change been like? And from a business perspective, are you having more conversations at that business? Little as the end of the day. If you can't recover the data, that's the whole point, right? >>Yeah, it is. I would say the conversations really have four sentiments to them. The first is always starts with the pandemic and the impact of the pandemic on the business. The second from there is it talks about resource. We talked about resource management. That's resource management, both from a cost perspective. Customers trying to shift the costs from Capex models typically on premises into Op X cloud consumption models and also resource management as well. There's the shift from customers who are used to doing business one way, and they're trying to shift the resources to make it effective in a new and better way. I'd say the third conversation actually pivots from there to things like security and governance. One of the interesting things this year we've seen a lot of is ransomware and malware and attacks, especially because the attack surface has increased with people working from home. There is more opportunity for organizations to be challenged, and then, lastly, always pivots where it ends up his digital transformation. How do I get from where I used to be to where I want to be? >>Yeah, the ransomware increase has been quite substantial. I've seen a number of big. Of course you never want to be. The brand garment was head Carnival Cruise Line. I think canon cameras as well and you're talking about you know you're right, Danny. The attacks are toe surfaces, expanding. Um, you know, with unprotected cloud databases. I think that was the Facebook Tic Tac Instagram pack. And so it's and also is getting more personal, which we have more people from home, more distractions. And that's a big challenge that organizations need to be prepared for, because, really, it's not a matter of are we going to get a hit? But it's It's when, and we need to make sure that we have that resiliency. They've talked to us about how them enables customers toe have that resiliency. >>Yeah, you know, it's a multilayered approach like you know, any good defensive mechanism. It's not one thing it's trying to do all of the right things in advance, meaning passwords and perimeter security and, ideally, virtual private networks. But to your point, some of those things can fail, especially as we're all working remotely, and there's more dependence on now. Suddenly, perhaps not so. I t sophisticated people, too. Now do the right things on a daily basis and your point about how personal is getting. If we're all getting emails about, click on this for helpful information on the pandemic, you know there's the likelihood of this goes up. So in addition to try and do good things ahead of time, we've got some early warning detection capabilities. We can alert that something looks suspicious or a novelist, and bare bears out better investigation to confirm that. But ultimately, the couple of things that we do, they're very interesting and unique to beam are we can lock down copy of the backup data so that even internal employees, even somewhat at Amazon, can't go. If it's marked immutable and destroy it, remove it, alter it in any way before it's due to be modified or deleted, erased in any way. But one of the ones I'm most excited about is we can actually recover from an old backup and now introduce updated virus signatures to ensure we don't reintroduced Day zero threats into production environment. >>Is it across all workloads, physical virtual things like, you know, Microsoft or 65 slack talked about those collaboration tools that immune ability, >>so immune ability. We're expanding out into multiple platforms today. We've got it on on premises object storage through a variety of different partners. Actually, a couple dozen different partners now, and we have something very unique with AWS s three object lock that we you can really lock down that data and ensure that can't be compromised. >>That's excellent, Danny, over to you in terms of cloud adoption, you both talked about this acceleration of digital business transformation that we've all seen. I think everyone has whiplash from that and that this adoption of cloud has increased. We've seen a lot of that is being a facilitator like, are you working with clients who are sort of, you know, maybe Dave at that point you talked about in the beginning, like kind of on that on that. Bring in the beginning and we've got to transform. We've got to go to the cloud. How do you kind of help? Maybe facilitate their adoption of public health services like AWS with the technologies that the off first? >>Yeah, I'd say it's really two things everyone wants to say, Hey, we're disrupting the market. We're changing everything about the world around us. You should come with us. Being actually is a very different approach to this one is we provide stability through the disruption around you. So as your business is changing and evolving and you're going through digital transformation, we can give you the stability through that and not only the stability through that change, but we can help in that change. And what I mean by that is if you have a customer who's been on premises and running the workloads on premises for a long while, and maybe they've been sending their backups and deaths three and flagging that impute ability. But maybe now they want to actually migrate the workloads into E. C to weaken. Do that. It's a It's a three step three clicks and workflow to hit a button and say send it up into Easy to. And then once it's in AWS, we can protect the workload when it's there. So we don't just give the stability in this changing environment around us. But we actually help customers go through that transformation and help them move the workloads to the most appropriate business location for them. >>And how does that Danny contending with you from a cost optimization perspective? Of course, we always talk about cost as a factor. Um, I'm going to the cloud. How does that a facilitator of, like, being able to move some of those workloads like attitude that you talked about? Is that a facilitator of cost optimization? Lower tco? I would imagine at some point Yes, >>Yes, it is. So I have this saying the cloud is not a charity right there later in margin, and often people don't understand necessarily what it's going to cost them. So one of the fundamental things that we've had in being back up for a W s since the very beginning since version one is we give cost forecasting and it's not just a rudimentary cost forecasting. We look at the storage we looked compute. We looked at the networking. We look at what all of the different factors that go into a policy, and we will tell them in advance what it's going to cost. That way you don't end up in a position where you're paying a lot more than you expected to pay. And so giving that transparency, giving the the visibility into what the costs of the cloud migration and adoption are going to be is a critical motivator for customers actually to use our software. >>Awesome. And Dave, I'm curious if we look at some of the things trends wise that have gone on, what are you seeing? I t folks in terms of work from home, the remote workers, but I am imagine they're getting their hands on this. But do you expect that a good amount of certain types of folks from industries won't go back into the office because I ts realizing, like more cost optimization? Zor Hey, we don't need to be on site because we can leverage cloud capabilities. >>Yeah, I think it works, actually, in both directions least, I think we'll see employees continue to work remotely, so the notion of skyscrapers being filled with tens of thousands of people, you know, knowledge workers, as they were once called back in the day. That may not come to pass at least any time soon. But conversely to your point everybody getting back into the data center, you know, from a business perspective, the vast majorities of CEO so they don't wanna be in the real estate business. They don't wanna be in the brick and mortar and the power cooling the facilities business. So >>that was >>a trend that was already directionally happening. And just as an accelerant, I think 2000 and 20 and probably 2021 at least the first half just continues that trend. >>Yeah, Silicon Valley is a bit lonely. The freeways there certainly emptier, which is one thing. But it is. It's one of those things that you think you could be now granted folks that worked from home regardless of the functions they were in before. It's not the same. I think we all know that it's not the same working from home during a pandemic when there's just so much more going on. But at the same time, I think businesses are realizing where they can actually get more cost optimization. Since you point not wanting to manage real estate, big data centers, things like that, that may be a ah, positive spin on what this situation has demonstrated. Daddy Last question to you. I always loved it to hear about successful customers. Talk to me about one of your favorite reference customers that really just articulates beams value, especially in this time of helping customers with so many pivots. >>Well, the whole concept of digital transformation is clearly coming to the forefront with the pandemic. And so one of my favorite customers, for example, ducks unlimited up in Canada. They have i ot sensors where they're collecting data about about climate information. They put it into a repository and they keep it for 60 years. Why 60 years? Because who knows? Over the next 60 years, when these sensors in the data they're collecting may be able to solve problems like climate change. But if you >>look at it >>a broader sense, take that same concept of collection of data. I think we're in a fantastic period right now where things like Callum medicine. Um, in the past, >>it was >>kind of in a slow roll remote education and training was on kind of a slow roll. Climate change. Slow roll. Um, but now the pandemics accelerating. Ah, lot of that. Another customer, Royal Dutch Shell, for example. Traditionally in the oil and petrochemical industry, their now taking the data that they have, they're going through this transformation faster than ever before and saying, How do I move to sustainable energy? And so a lot of people look at 2020 and say, I want how does this year? Or, you know, this is not the transformation I want. I actually take the reverse of that. The customers that we have right now are taking the data sets that they have, and they're actually optimizing for a more sustainable future, a better future for us and for our Children. And I think that's a fantastic thing, and being obviously helps in that transformation. >>That's excellent. And I agree with you, Danny, you know, the necessity is the mother of invention. And sometimes when all of these challenges air exposed, it's hard right away to see what are the what are the positives right? What are the opportunities? But from a business perspective is you guys were talking about the beginning of our segment, you know, in the beginning was keeping the lights on. Well, now we've got to get from keeping the lights on, too. Surviving to pivoting well to thriving. So that hopefully 2021 this is good as everybody hopes it's going to be. Right, Dave? >>Yeah, absolutely. It's all data driven and you're right. We have to move from keep the lights up on going the operational aspect to growing the business in new ways and ideally transforming the business in new ways. And you can see we hit on digital transformation a number of times. Why? Because its data driven, Why do we intercept that with being well? Because if it's important to you, it's probably backed up and held for long term safekeeping. So we want to be able to better leverage the data like Danny mentioned with Ducks Unlimited. >>And of course, as we know, data volumes are only growing. So next time you're on day, you have to play us out with one of your guitars. Deal >>definitely, definitely will. >>Excellent for Dave Russell and Danny Allen. I'm Lisa Martin. Guys, thank you so much for joining. You're watching the Cube

>>LA Las Vegas. It's the cube covering AWS reinvent 2019 brought to you by Amazon web services and don't along with its ecosystem partners. >>Hey, welcome back to the cubes coverage of AWS reinvent 19 from Las Vegas. This is our third day of covering the event. Lots of conversations, two cube sets, as John would say, a Canon of cube content. Lisa Martin here with my esteemed colleague Justin. Um, and Justin, I have a couple of guests joining us. We've got to my left jus bhandarkar had a product for FreshWorks inc and Broughton Sahar VP and GM of machine learning services from Amazon. Gentlemen, welcome to the cube. You still have voices, which is very impressive after three days. A lot of practice it does or hiding out in quiet areas. Right? So Tay, Jess FreshWorks inc I souping on the website. Justin and I were talking before we went live, you guys have 150,000 of businesses using your technologies. I hadn't heard of FreshWorks, but it looks like it's about customer relationship management and customer experience. Tell our audience a little bit about what FreshWorks is and the technologies that you deliver. >>Okay. So we were founded in, uh, back in 2010. We were born in the cloud in the AWS cloud. Uh, and we started off as a, uh, customer support, uh, application. And we have grown on to now deliver a suite of customer engagement applications that include marketing and automation capabilities, CRM, uh, customer support and customer success. And so what we really are looking after is, is to deliver a value across the entire customer journey. Uh, you know, >>so there's been some big legacy CRMs around for a long time. What was the market opportunity back in 2010? The FreshWorks folks saw there's a gap here. We need to fill it. >>Yeah. We, well, we, uh, like any other startup, we decided to focus in one place and our focus, uh, was really around SMBs. We felt like SMBs were underserved and, uh, we felt like as rich as the technology is and the experiences have become, uh, we felt like we needed to democratize access to that. And because SMBs tended to have fewer resources and maybe, uh, in some cases weren't as tech savvy. Uh, we felt like they were kind of getting left behind. And so we wanted to step in there and make them whole and kind of offer them the same set of richness that you would expect, you know, for a large enterprise customer to have. And for that actually working in conjunction with AWS has been super important for us cause we have really been able to deliver on that promise. >>Maybe you can tell us a bit about the relationship between yourselves and FreshWorks. I believe the fresh works is built completely on AWS and always has been. >>Yeah. So how did that relationship begin and how has that grown as, as FreshWorks has grown into, into this massive company that you've become? >>Yeah, so, um, FreshWorks got off on AWS and then when we launched Sage maker and as you know, we have 700 tens of thousands of customers today doing the machine learning on AWS and on Sage maker. What customers have seen is that they get significant benefits in terms of features and developer productivity. And lower cost of ownership and FreshWorks saw that they could reduce that time to getting the models out by an order of magnitude. And their house was saying for example, that they used to take couple of days to get the models out to production. And by using Sage maker they were able to get it down to a couple of hours. And we have seen this happen with many other customers into it. For example, got down from six months to about a week. And just because of the productivity, performance and cost benefits that Sage makeup provides, you have seen the house FreshWorks and then many other companies, many of the customers more to AWS for the machine learning. >>Are they what are you using this machine learning to do? So you have all of these different models and we were talking a little bit before we went live about how you, how you use different models for different customers. But what are those models actually used to do? What service do they provide? >>Okay. So as you know, we have a set of these applications which are built around functional use cases. And so if you take a given customer, they might have multiple products from us and they might be doing multiple different use cases on us. And so you can quickly think of this as being, you know, maybe three to five specific use cases that require, you know, machine learning, you know, assistance. Uh, and so as a result, as we scale this up to the our entire, uh, set of customers, we now literally have thousands and thousands of these ML models that we have built, addressed, uh, geared to, uh, addressing specific pain points of that particular customer. Right? So it's all about catering the ML model for a specific use in a specific context. And then it's not only just about building it, uh, which, you know, obviously Sage Merker does a great job of helping us do that, but it's also about maintaining it over time and making sure that it stays relevant and fresh and so on. >>And again, working with AWS has been instrumental in for us to kind of stay ahead of that curve and make sure that we're continuing to drive accuracy and scale and simplicity into, uh, into, you know, into those particular use cases for customers. Then, you know, we released many features this year that makes this important. So one of the things that we have as part of Sage maker studio is a Sage make a model monitor that automatically monitors predictions and allows a customer to say, when are those predictions not being of the appropriate quality? And then we can send an allowance. So we are really building Sage maker out as a machine learning platform that they get all of the undifferentiated heavy lifting so that customers can really focus on what they need to do to build a model, train the model, and deploy the model. >>So in terms of your users, you mentioned too just the, the, the gap in the market back in 2010 was the small, the SMB space that probably something like a Salesforce or an Oracle was possibly too complex for an SMB. But now we're talking about emerging technologies, machine learning, AI. What is the appetite for the smaller, are you dealing with, I guess my question is a lot of SMBs that are born in the cloud companies, so smaller and more agile and more willing to understand and embrace technology versus legacy SMBs that might be, I don't want to say technology averse but not born within it. >>Yeah. So, so we, uh, we run through the entire gamut. So we obviously have, uh, you know, Silicon Valley based startups. We have more traditional companies around travel and hospitality and real estate and other, other verticals. Uh, and what we have really, really seen the commonality has been is that, uh, as good as the technology has become for AI and ML, uh, there is still some disparity in how people are able to consume it. Right. And if you have a lot of resources, a lot of skilled engineers, it is very easy for you to do that, thanks to all of the capabilities that are delivered by AWS. But in the other cases, uh, they do require more handholding specifically for those use cases that really impact them. Like how do I reduce my churn amongst customers? How do I maximize the chances of closing a deal? How do I make sure that the marketing campaign I run delivers on all of the, the objectives that I have? Right? So all of those things they re they need help. And so we are in there to kind of simplify that for them and leveraging all of the underlying technologies from AWS. We're able to deliver that together >>and going in from the beginning all in on AWS when AWS was only about four years old or so, right? Back in 2010. Um, talk to me about the opportunities that that is opened up for FreshWorks to evolve, you know, offer a suite of different solutions. Talk to us about Amazon and AWS is evolution and how quickly that they're evolving and developing new products and services as like fuel for FreshWorks business. >>Yeah. So really the big focus that we have always had is to deliver the right experiences that really impact end users. For those particular functional use cases around marketing, sales support and customer success, right? So as part of that, while we are focusing on on that experience, we also need to be focusing on delivering all of these services at scale, right? And with all the right security built in and all the right, uh, other, you know, tool set that that's built in. And so, so the synergy that we have found with between us and AWS is that we're able to rely on all of the right things for AWS to deliver upon. So they are also all about offering simple API APIs about making things scalable right from the get go about being extremely cost effective about uh, continuing to drive innovation. And these are all the things that drive us as well for our customers. And so it's been a very complimentary partnership from that respect is, you know, we kind of like go on this journey together and in our customer obsession is a key leadership principle. And so everything we do at AWS is really working back from the customer and making sure that we are really addressing all of the pain points. And making them successful? >>Well, because customer experience is a D it can be a deal breaker for companies, right? You think of you have a problem with your ISP and you call in or you go through social media or um, a chat bot and you can't get that problem resolved. As a consumer, you have so much choice to go to another vendor who might be able to better meet your needs or have the use the data to make sure they already know what's the problem. It's the same thing in the CRM space, right? If businesses don't have the right technologies to use the data to really know their customers, this customer's churn. And so it's really, we see CX as a driving force in any industry that if you can't get that right, customers are going to go, I'm going to go somewhere else because I have that choice. >>Yes. I mean customer expectations that you said have risen customer inpatients with bad experiences gone down. And one of the things that we have really focused on is as we go through this entire journey, we collect the data of that customer's journey. And we learn from it and we're able to visualize that for the sales person or the tech support person who's actually working with that customer. So they can actually see the journey of that customer. They visited the pricing page a couple of times, maybe they're interested to make a purchase or they visited the cancellation policy page. Okay, maybe I need to do something about that. Right. And so that is really been instrumental kind of in success success. And you know, what we are doing at AWS and Sage maker is making sure that all our customers get access to this technology. And that is where we start with how do we make machine learning accessible to all developers so that all of the experiences that we have gained at Amazon from investing in machine learning for the last 20 years, we take all of those learnings and make it available to our customers so they can apply machine learning for transforming their businesses. >>Yup. >>And that's exactly what it can be as transformational. Well gentlemen, thank you very much for joining Justin and me on the program talking to us about FreshWorks. What you guys are doing with Amazon and the opportunity to really dial up that CX experience with machine learning. We appreciate your time. >>Thank you. Thank you very much. >>All right. For my car is Justin Warren. I'm Lisa Martin and your Archie, the cube from AWS. Reinvent 19 from Vegas. Thanks.

>> Live from Barcelona, Spain. It's the cue covering Sisqo. Live Europe. Brought to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to sunny Barcelona. Everybody watching the Cube, the leader and live tech coverage. We go out to the events, we extract the signal from the noise we hear There's our third day of coverage that Sisqo live. Barcelona David Lot. John Furrier. This here stew Minutemen all week. John, we've been covering this show. Walter Wall like a canon ae is here is a distinguished engineer and product line. CTO for Cisco Analytics. Welcome to the Cube. You see you again. Welcome back to the Cube. I should say thank you very much. So tell us about your role. You're focused right now on malware encryption. We want to get into that, but but set it up with your roll >> first. Well, I'm trying to raise the cost to the bad guy's hiding in your network. I mean, basically it's it. It it's an economics thing because one there's a lot of places for them to hide. And and they they are innovating just as much as we are. And so if I can make it more expensive for them to hide and operate. Then I'm doing my job. And and that means not only using techniques of the past but developing new techniques. You know, Like I said, it's It's really unlike a regular job. I'm not waiting for the hard drive to fail or a power supply to fail. I have an active adversary that's smart and well funded. So if I if I shipped some innovation, I forced them to innovate and vice versa. >> So you're trying to reduce their our ally and incentives. >> I want to make it too expensive for them to do business. >> So what's the strategy there? Because it's an arms race. Obviously wanted one one. You know, Whitehead over a black hat, kind of continue to do that. Is it decentralized to create more segments? What is the current strategies that you see to make it more complex or less economically viable to just throw resource at a port or whatever? >> There's sort of two dimensions that are driving change one. You know they're trying to make a buck. Okay? And and, you know, we saw the ransomware stuff we saw, you know, things that they did to extract money from a victim. Their latest thing now is they've They've realized that Ransomware wasn't a recurring revenue stream for them. Right? And so what's called crypto jacking is so they essentially have taking the cost structure out of doing crypto mining. You know, when you do crypto mining, you'll make a nickel, maybe ten cents, maybe even twenty cents a day. Just doing this. Mathematical mining, solving these puzzles. And if you had to do that on your own computer, you'd suck up all this electricity and thing. You'd have some cost structure, right and less of a margin. But if you go on, you know, breach a thousand computers, maybe ten thousand, maybe one hundred thousand. Guess what, right you? Not one you're hiding. So guess what? Today you make a nickel tomorrow, you make another nickel. So, you know, if you if you go to the threat wall here, you'd be surprised this crypto mining activity taking place here and nobody knows about it. We have it up on the threat wall because we can detect its behavior. We can't see the actual payload because all encrypted. But we have techniques now. Advanced Analytics by which we can now call out its unique behaviour very distinctly. >> Okay, so you're attacking this problem with with data and analytics. Is that right? What? One of the ingredients of your defense? >> Yeah. I mean, they're sort of Ah, three layer cake There. You first. You have? You know, I always say all telemetry is data, but not all data. Is telemetry. All right? So when you when you go about looking at an observation or domain, you know, Inhumans, we have sight. We have hearing these air just like the network or the endpoint. And there's there's telemetry coming out of that, hopefully from the network itself. Okay, because it's the most pervasive. And so you have this dilemma tree telling you something about the good guys and the bad guys and you, you perform synthesis and analytics, and then you have an analytical outcome. So that's sort of the three layer cake is telemetry, analytics, analytical outcome. And what matters to you and me is really the outcome, right? In this case, detecting malicious activity without doing decryption. >> You mentioned observation. Love this. We've been talking to Cuba in the past about observation space. Having an observation base is critical because you know, people don't write bomb on a manifest and ship it. They they hide it's it's hidden in the network, even their high, but also the meta data. You have to kind extract that out. That's kind of where you get into the analytics. How does that observation space gets set up? Happened? Someone creating observation special? They sharing the space with a public private? This becomes kind of almost Internet infrastructure. Sound familiar? Network opportunity? >> Yeah. You know, there's just three other. The other driver of change is just infrastructure is changing. Okay. You mean the past? Go back. Go back twenty years, you had to rent some real estate. You gotto put up some rocks, some air conditioning, and you were running on raw iron. Then the hyper visors came. Okay, well, I need another observation. A ll. You know, I meet eyes and ears on this hyper visor you got urbanity is now you've got hybrid Cloud. You have even serve Ellis computing, right? These are all things I need eyes and ears. Now, there that traditional methods don't don't get me there so again, being able to respect the fact that there are multiple environments that my digital business thrives on. And it's not just the traditional stuff, you know, there's there's the new stuff that we need to invent ways by which to get the dilemma tree and get the analytical >> talkabout this dynamic because we're seeing this. I think we're just both talking before we came on camera way all got our kind of CS degrees in the eighties. But if you look at the decomposition of building blocks with a P, I's and clouds, it's now a lot of moving to spare it parts for good reasons, but also now, to your point, about having eyes and ears on these components. They're all from different vendors, different clouds. Multi cloud creates Mohr opportunities. But yet more complexity. Software abstractions will help manage that. Now you have almost like an operating system concept around it. How are you guys looking at this? I'll see the intent based networking and hyper flex anywhere. You seeing that vision of data being critical, observation space, etcetera. But if you think about holistically, the network is the computer. Scott McNealy once said. Yeah, I mean, last week, when we are this is actually happening. So it's not just cloud a or cloud be anon premise and EJ, it's the totality of the system. This is what's happening >> ways. It's it's absolutely a reality. And and and the sooner you embrace that, the better. Because when the bad guys embrace it verse, You have problems, right? And and you look at even how they you know how they scale techniques. They use their cloud first, okay, that, you know their innovative buns. And when you look at a cloud, you know, we mentioned the eyes and ears right in the past. You had eyes and ears on a body you own. You're trying to put eyes in here on a body you don't own anymore. This's public cloud, right? So again, the reality is somebody you know. These businesses are somewhere on the journey, right? And the journey goes traditional hyper visor. You have then ultimately hybrid multi clouds. >> So the cost issue comes back. The play of everything sass and cloud. It's just You start a company in the cloud versus standing up here on the check, we see the start of wave from a state sponsored terrorist organization. It's easy for me to start a threat. So this lowers the cost actually threat. So that lowers the IQ you needed to be a hacker. So making it harder also helps that this is kind of where you're going. Explain this dynamic because it's easy to start threats, throw, throw some code at something. I could be in a bedroom anywhere in the world. Or I could be a group that gets free, open source tools sent to me by a state and act on behalf of China. Russia, >> Of course, of course, you know, software, software, infrastructures, infrastructure, right? It's It's the same for the bad guys, the good guys. That's sort of the good news and the bad news. And you look at the way they scale, you know, techniques. They used to stay private saying, You know, all of these things are are valid, no matter what side of the line you sit on, right? Math is still math. And again, you know, I just have Ah, maybe a fascination for how quickly they innovate, How quickly they ship code, how quickly they scale. You know, these botnets are massive, right? If you could get about that, you're looking at a very cloud infrastructure system that expands and contracts. >> So let's let's talk a little more about scale. You got way more good guys on the network than bad guys get you. First of all, most trying to do good and you need more good guys to fight the bad guys up, do things. Those things like infrastructure is code dev ops. Does that help the good guys scale? And and how so? >> You know it does. There's a air. You familiar with the concept called The Loop Joe? It was It was invented by a gentleman, Colonel John Boyd, and he was a jet fighter pilot. Need taught other jet fighter pilots tactics, and he invented this thing called Guadalupe and it's it's o d a observe orient decide. And at all right. And the quicker you can spin your doodle ooh, the more disoriented your adversary ISS. And so speed speed matters. Okay. And so if you can observe Orient, decide, act faster, then your adversary, you created almost a knowledge margin by which they're disoriented. And and the speed of Dev ops has really brought this two defenders. They can essentially push code and reorient themselves in a cycle that's frankly too small of a window for the adversary to even get their bearings right. And so speed doesn't matter. And this >> changing the conditions of the test, if you will. How far the environment, of course, on a rabbit is a strategy whether it's segmenting networks, making things harder to get at. So in a way, complexity is better for security because it's more complex. It costs more to penetrate complex to whom to the adversary of the machine, trying very central data base. Second, just hack in, get all the jewels >> leave. That's right, >> that's right. And and again. You know, I think that all of this new technology and and as you mentioned new processes around these technologies, I think it's it's really changing the game. The things that are very deterministic, very static, very slow moving those things. They're just become easy targets. Low cost targets. If you will >> talk about the innovation that you guys are doing around the encryption detecting malware over encrypted traffic. Yeah, the average person Oh, encrypted traffic is totally secure. But you guys have a method to figure out Mel, where behavior over encrypted, which means the payload can't be penetrated or it's not penetrated. So you write full. We don't know what's in there but through and network trav explain what you're working on. >> Yeah. The paradox begins with the fact that everybody's using networks now. Everything, even your thermostat. You're probably your tea kettle is crossing a network somewhere. And and in that reality, that transmission should be secure. So the good news is, I no longer have to complain as much about looking at somebody's business and saying, Why would you operate in the clear? Okay, now I say, Oh, my God, you're business is about ninety percent dot Okay, when I talked about technology working well for everyone, it works just as well for the bad guys. So I'm not going to tell this this business start operating in the clear anymore, so I can expect for malicious activity. No, we have to now in for malicious activity from behavior. Because the inspection, the direct inspection is no longer available. So that we came up with a technique called encrypted Traffic analytics. And again, we could have done it just in a product. But what we did that was clever was we went to the Enterprise networking group and said, if I could get of new telemetry, I can give you this analytical outcome. Okay? That'll allow us to detect malicious activity without doing decryption. And so the network as a sensor, the routers and switches, all of those things are sending me this. Richard, it's Tellem aji, by which I can infer this malicious activity without doing any secret. >> So payload and network are too separate things contractually because you don't need look at the payload network. >> Yeah. I mean, if you want to think about it this way, all encrypted traffic starts out unencrypted. Okay, It's a very small percentage, but everything in that start up is visible. So we have the routers and switches are sending us that metadata. Then we do something clever. I call it Instead of having direct observation, I need an observational derivative. Okay, I need to see its shape and size over time. So at minute five minute, fifteen minute thirty, I can see it's timing, and I can model on that timing. And this is where machine learning comes in because it's It's a science. That's just it's day has come for behavioral science, so I could train on all this data and say, If this malware looks like this at minute, five minute, ten minute fifteen, then if I see that exact behavior mathematically precise behaviour on your network, I can infer that's the same Mallory >> Okay, And your ability you mentioned just you don't have to decrypt that's that gives you more protection. Obviously, you're not exposed, but also presumably better performance. Is that right, or is that not affected? >> A lot? A lot better performance. The cryptographic protocols themselves are becoming more and more opaque. T L s, which is one of the protocols used to encrypt all of the Web traffic. For instance, they just went through a massive revision from one dot two two version one not three. It is faster, It is stronger. It's just better. But there's less visible fields now in the hitter. So you know things that there's a term being thrown around called Dark Data, and it's getting darker for everyone. >> So, looking at the envelope, looking at the network of fact, this is the key thing. Value. The network is now more important than ever explain why? Well, >> it connects everything right, and there's more things getting connected. And so, as you build, you know you can reach more customers. You can You can operate more efficiently, efficiently. You can. You can bring down your operational costs. There's so many so many benefit. >> FBI's also add more connection points as well. Integration. It's Metcalfe's law within a third dimension That dimension data value >> conductivity. I mean, the message itself is growing exponentially. Right? So that's just incredibly exciting. >> Super awesome topic. Looking forward to continuing this conversation. Great. Great. Come. Super important, cool and relevant and more impactful. A lot more action happening. Okay, Thanks for sharing that. Great. It's so great to have you on a keeper. Right, everybody, we'll be back to wrap Day three. Francisco live Barcelona. You're watching the Cube. Stay right there.