(bright upbeat music) >> Welcome back to Detroit guys and girls. Lisa Martin here with John Furrier. We've been on the floor at KubeCon + CloudNativeCon North America for about two days now. We've been breaking news, we would have a great conversations, John. We love talking with CUBE alumni whose companies are just taking off. And we get to do that next again. >> Well, this next segment's awesome. We have former CUBE host, Brian Gracely, here who's an executive in this company. And then the entrepreneur who we're going to talk with. She was on theCUBE when it just started now they're extremely successful. It's going to be a great conversation. >> It is, Idit Levine is here, the founder and CEO of solo.io. And as John mentioned, Brian Gracely. You know Brian. He's the VP of Product Marketing and Product Strategy now at solo.io. Guys, welcome to theCUBE, great to have you here. >> Thanks for having us. >> Idit: Thank so much for having us. >> Talk about what's going on. This is a rocket ship that you're riding. I was looking at your webpage, you have some amazing customers. T-Mobile, BMW, Amex, for a marketing guy it must be like, this is just- >> Brian: Yeah, you can't beat it. >> Kid in a candy store. >> Brian: Can't beat it. >> You can't beat it. >> For giant companies like that, giant brands, global, to trust a company of our size it's trust, it's great engineering, it's trust, it's fantastic. >> Idit, talk about the fast trajectory of this company and how you've been able to garner trust with such mass organizations in such a short time period. >> Yes, I think that mainly is just being the best. Honestly, that's the best approach I can say. The team that we build, honestly, and this is a great example of one of them, right? And we're basically getting the best people in the industry. So that's helpful a lot. We are very, very active on the open source community. So basically it building it, anyway, and by doing this they see us everywhere. They see our success. You're starting with a few customers, they're extremely successful and then you're just creating this amazing partnership with them. So we have a very, very unique way we're working with them. >> So hard work, good code. >> Yes. >> Smart people, experience. >> That's all you need. >> It's simple, why doesn't everyone do it? >> It's really easy. (all laughing) >> All good, congratulations. It's been fun to watch you guys grow. Brian, great to see you kicking butt in this great company. I got to ask about the landscape because I love the ServiceMeshCon you guys had on a co-located event on day zero here as part of that program, pretty packed house. >> Brian: Yep. >> A lot of great feedback. This whole ServiceMesh and where it fits in. You got Kubernetes. What's the update? Because everything's kind of coming together- >> Brian: Right. >> It's like jello in the refrigerator it kind of comes together at the same time. Where are we? >> I think the easiest way to think about it is, and it kind of mirrors this event perfectly. So the last four or five years, all about Kubernetes, built Kubernetes. So every one of our customers are the ones who have said, look, for the last two or three years, we've been building Kubernetes, we've had a certain amount of success with it, they're building applications faster, they're deploying and then that success leads to new challenges, right? So we sort of call that first Kubernetes part sort of CloudNative 1.0, this and this show is really CloudNative 2.0. What happens after Kubernetes service mesh? Is that what happens after Kubernetes? And for us, Istio now being part of the CNCF, huge, standardized, people are excited about it. And then we think we are the best at doing Istio from a service mesh perspective. So it's kind of perfect, perfect equation. >> Well, I'll turn it on, listen to your great Cloud cast podcast, plug there for you. You always say what is it and what isn't it? >> Brian: Yeah. >> What is your product and what isn't it? >> Yeah, so our product is, from a purely product perspective it's service mesh and API gateway. We integrate them in a way that nobody else does. So we make it easier to deploy, easier to manage, easier to secure. I mean, those two things ultimately are, if it's an internal API or it's an external API, we secure it, we route it, we can observe it. So if anybody's, you're building modern applications, you need this stuff in order to be able to go to market, deploy at scale all those sort of things. >> Idit, talk about some of your customer conversations. What are the big barriers that they've had, or the challenges, that solo.io comes in and just wipes off the table? >> Yeah, so I think that a lot of them, as Brian described it, very, rarely they had a success with Kubernetes, maybe a few clusters, but then they basically started to on-ramp more application on those clusters. They need more cluster maybe they want multi-class, multi-cloud. And they mainly wanted to enable the team, right? This is why we all here, right? What we wanted to eventually is to take a piece of the infrastructure and delegate it to our customers which is basically the application team. So I think that that's where they started to see the problem because it's one thing to take some open source project and deploy it very little bit but the scale, it's all about the scale. How do you enable all those millions of developers basically working on your platform? How do you scale multi-cloud? What's going on if one of them is down, how do you fill over? So that's exactly the problem that they have >> Lisa: Which is critical for- >> As bad as COVID was as a global thing, it was an amazing enabler for us because so many companies had to say... If you're a retail company, your front door was closed, but you still wanted to do business. So you had to figure out, how do I do mobile? How do I be agile? If you were a company that was dealing with like used cars your number of hits were through the roof because regular cars weren't available. So we have all these examples of companies who literally overnight, COVID was their digital transformation enabler. >> Lisa: Yes. Yes. >> And the scale that they had to deal with, the agility they had to deal with, and we sort of fit perfectly in that. They re-looked at what's our infrastructure look like? What's our security look like? We just happened to be right place in the right time. >> And they had skillset issues- >> Skillsets. >> Yeah. >> And the remote work- >> Right, right. >> Combined with- >> Exactly. >> Modern upgrade gun-to-the-head, almost, kind of mentality. >> And we're really an interesting company. Most of the interactions we do with customers is through Slack, obviously it was remote. We would probably be a great Slack case study in terms of how to do business because our customers engage with us, with engineers all over the world, they look like one team. But we can get them up and running in a POC, in a demo, get them through their things really, really fast. It's almost like going to the public cloud, but at whatever complexity they want. >> John: Nice workflow. >> So a lot of momentum for you guys silver linings during COVID, which is awesome we do hear a lot of those stories of positive things, the acceleration of digital transformation, and how much, as consumers, we've all benefited from that. Do you have one example, Brian, as the VP of product marketing, of a customer that you really think in the last two years just is solo.io's value proposition on a platter? >> I'll give you one that I think everybody can understand. So most people, at least in the United States, you've heard of Chick-fil-A, retail, everybody likes the chicken. 2,600 stores in the US, they all shut down and their business model, it's good food but great personal customer experience. That customer experience went away literally overnight. So they went from barely anybody using the mobile application, and hence APIs in the backend, half their business now goes through that to the point where, A, they shifted their business, they shifted their customer experience, and they physically rebuilt 2,600 stores. They have two drive-throughs now that instead of one, because now they have an entire one dedicated to that mobile experience. So something like that happening overnight, you could never do the ROI for it, but it's changed who they are. >> Lisa: Absolutely transformative. >> So, things like that, that's an example I think everybody can kind of relate to. Stuff like that happened. >> Yeah. >> And I think that's also what's special is, honestly, you're probably using a product every day. You just don't know that, right? When you're swiping your credit card or when you are ordering food, or when you using your phone, honestly the amount of customer they were having, the space, it's like so, every industry- >> John: How many customers do you have? >> I think close to 200 right now. >> Brian: Yeah. >> Yeah. >> How many employees, can you gimme some stats? Funding, employees? What's the latest statistics? >> We recently found a year ago $135 million for a billion dollar valuation. >> Nice. >> So we are a unicorn. I think when you took it we were around like 50 ish people. Right now we probably around 180, and we are growing, we probably be 200 really, really quick. And I think that what's really, really special as I said the interaction that we're doing with our customers, we're basically extending their team. So for each customer is basically a Slack channel. And then there is a lot of people, we are totally global. So we have people in APAC, in Australia, New Zealand, in Singapore we have in AMEA, in UK and in Spain and Paris, and other places, and of course all over US. >> So your use case on how to run a startup, scale up, during the pandemic, complete clean sheet of paper. >> Idit: We had to. >> And what happens, you got Slack channels as your customer service collaboration slash productivity. What else did you guys do differently that you could point to that's, I would call, a modern technique for an entrepreneurial scale? >> So I think that there's a few things that we are doing different. So first of all, in Solo, honestly, there is a few things that differentiated from, in my opinion, most of the companies here. Number one is look, you see this, this is a lot, a lot of new technology and one of the things that the customer is nervous the most is choosing the wrong one because we saw what happened, right? I don't know the orchestration world, right? >> John: So choosing and also integrating multiple things at the same time. >> Idit: Exactly. >> It's hard. >> And this is, I think, where Solo is expeditious coming to place. So I mean we have one team that is dedicated like open source contribution and working with all the open source community and I think we're really good at picking the right product and basically we're usually right, which is great. So if you're looking at Kubernetes, we went there for the beginning. If you're looking at something like service mesh Istio, we were all envoy proxy and out of process. So I think that by choosing these things, and now Cilium is something that we're also focusing on. I think that by using the right technology, first of all you know that it's very expensive to migrate from one to the other if you get it wrong. So I think that's one thing that is always really good at. But then once we actually getting those portal we basically very good at going and leading those community. So we are basically bringing the customers to the community itself. So we are leading this by being in the TOC members, right? The Technical Oversight Committee. And we are leading by actually contributing a lot. So if the customer needs something immediately, we will patch it for him and walk upstream. So that's kind of like the second thing. And the third one is innovation. And that's really important to us. So we pushing the boundaries. Ambient, that we announced a month ago with Google- >> And STO, the book that's out. >> Yes, the Ambient, it's basically a modern STO which is the future of SDL. We worked on it with Google and their NDA and we were listed last month. This is exactly an example of us basically saying we can do it better. We learn from our customers, which is huge. And now we know that we can do better. So this is the third thing, and the last one is the partnership. I mean honestly we are the extension team of the customer. We are there on Slack if they need something. Honestly, there is a reason why our renewal rate is 98.9 and our net extension is 135%. I mean customers are very, very happy. >> You deploy it, you make it right. >> Idit: Exactly, exactly. >> The other thing we did, and again this was during COVID, we didn't want to be a shell-for company. We didn't want to drop stuff off and you didn't know what to do with it. We trained nearly 10,000 people. We have something called Solo Academy, which is free, online workshops, they run all the time, people can come and get hands on training. So we're building an army of people that are those specialists that have that skill set. So we don't have to walk into shops and go like, well okay, I hope six months from now you guys can figure this stuff out. They're like, they've been doing that. >> And if their friends sees their friend, sees their friend. >> The other thing, and I got to figure out as a marketing person how to do this, we have more than a few handfuls of people that they've got promoted, they got promoted, they got promoted. We keep seeing people who deploy our technologies, who, because of this stuff they're doing- >> John: That's a good sign. They're doing it at at scale, >> John: That promoter score. >> They keep getting promoted. >> Yeah, that's amazing. >> That's a powerful sort of side benefit. >> Absolutely, that's a great thing to have for marketing. Last question before we ran out of time. You and I, Idit, were talking before we went live, your sessions here are overflowing. What's your overall sentiment of KubeCon 2022 and what feedback have you gotten from all the customers bursting at the seam to come talk to you guys? >> I think first of all, there was the pre-event which we had and it was a lot of fun. We talked to a lot of customer, most of them is 500, global successful company. So I think that people definitely... I will say that much. We definitely have the market feed, people interested in this. Brian described very well what we see here which is people try to figure out the CloudNative 2.0. So that's number one. The second thing is that there is a consolidation, which I like, I mean STO becoming right now a CNCF project I think it's a huge, huge thing for all the community. I mean, we're talking about all the big tweak cloud, we partner with them. I mean I think this is a big sign of we agree which I think is extremely important in this community. >> Congratulations on all your success. >> Thank you so much. >> And where can customers go to get their hands on this, solo.io? >> Solo.io? Yeah, absolutely. >> Awesome guys, this has been great. Congratulations on the momentum. >> Thank you. >> The rocket ship that you're riding. We know you got to get to the airport we're going to let you go. But we appreciate your insights and your time so much, thank you. >> Thank you so much. >> Thanks guys, we appreciate it. >> A pleasure. >> Thanks. >> For our guests and John Furrier, This is Lisa Martin live in Detroit, had to think about that for a second, at KubeCon 2022 CloudNativeCon. We'll be right back with our final guests of the day and then the show wraps, so stick around. (gentle music)

>>Oh, welcome back to the cubes coverage of coop con cloud native con 2021. I'm John is the Cuba, David Nicholson, our cloud host analyst, and it's exciting to be back in person in event. So we're back. It's been two years with the cube con and Linux foundation. So scrape, it was a hybrid event and we have a great guest here, Cuban London, Nick Dirk, and CT field CTO of harness and harness.io. The URL love the.io. Good to see you. >>Thank you guys for having me on. I genuinely appreciate >>It. Thanks for coming on. You were a part of our AWS startup showcase, which you guys were featured as a fast growing mature company, uh, as cloud scales, you guys have been doing extremely well. So congratulations. But now we're in reality now, right? So, okay. Cloud native has kind of like, okay, we don't have to sell it anymore. People buying into it. Um, and now operationalizing it with cloud operations, which means you're running stuff, applications and infrastructure is code and it costs money. Yeah. Martine Casada at Andreessen Horowitz. Oh, repatriated from the cloud. So there's a lot of, there's some cost conversations starting to happen. This is what you guys are in the middle of. >>Yeah, absolutely. What's interesting is when you think about it today, we want to shift left. When you want to empower all the engineers, we want to empower people. We're not giving them the data they need, right. They get a call from the CFO 30 days later, as opposed to actually being able to look at what change I did and how it actually affected. And this is what we're bringing in. Allowing people to have is now really empowering. So throughout the whole software delivery life cycle from CGI continuous integration, continuous delivery feature flagging, and even bringing cost modeling and in cloud cost management. And even then being able to shut down, shut down the services that you're not using, how much of that is waste. We talk about it. Every single cloud conference it's how much is waste. And so being able to actually turn those on, use those accordingly and then take advantage of even the cheapest instances when you should. That's really what >>It's so funny. People almost trip over dollars to pick up pennies in the cloud business because they're so focused on innovation that they think, okay, we've got to just innovate at all costs, but at some point you can make it productive for the developers in process in the pipeline to actually manage that. >>That's exactly it. I mean, if you think about it to me in order to breach state continuous delivery, we have to automate everything. Right. But that doesn't mean stop at just delivering, you know, to production. That means to customer, which means we've got to make them happy, but then ultimately all of those resources in dev and QA and staging and UAT, we've sticker those as well. And if we're not being mindful of it, the costs are astronomical, right. And we've seen it time and time again with every company you see, you've seen every article about how they've blown through all their budgets. So bring it to the people that can affect change. That's really the difference, making it visible, looking at it. In-depth not just at the cloud level and all the spend there, but also even at the, uh, thinking about it, the Kubernetes level down to the containers, the pods and understanding where are the resources even inside of the clusters and bringing that as an aggregate, not just for visibility and, and giving recommendations, but now more importantly, because part of a pipeline start taking action. That's where it's interesting. It's not just about being able to see it and understand it and hope, right? Hope is not a strategy acting upon it is what makes it valuable. And that's part of the automate everything. >>Yeah. We'll let that at the Dawn of the age of DevOps, uh, there was a huge incentive for a developer just to get their job done, to seize control of infrastructure, the idea of infrastructure as code, you know, and it's, it's, you know, w when it was being born, it's a fantastic, I've always wondered though, you know, be careful what you wish for. Do you really want all of that responsibility? So we've got responsibility from a compliance and security perspective and of course cost. So, so where do we, where do we go from here, I guess is the question. Yeah. So >>When we look at building this all together, I think when we think about software delivery, everybody wants to go fast. We start with velocity, right? Everybody says, that's where I want to go. And to your point with governance compliance, the next roadblock to hit is weight. In order to go fast, I have to do it appropriately. I've got governing bodies that tell me how this has to work. And that becomes a challenge. >>It slows it down too. It doesn't, I mean, basically people are getting pissed off, right? This is, this general sentiment is, is that developers are moving fast with their code. And then they have to stop. Compliance has to give the green light sometimes days, correct? Uh, it used to be weeks now. It's days, it's still unacceptable. So there's like this always been that tension to the security groups or say it, or finance was like slow down and they actually want to go faster. So that has to be policy-based something. Yep. This is the future. What is your take on that? >>Take on, this is pretty simple. When everybody talks about people, process and technology, it's kind of bogus, right? It's all about confidence. If you're confident that your developers can deploy appropriately and they're not going to do something wrong, you'll let them to play all the time. Well, that requires process. But if you have tooling that literally guarantees your governance, make sure that at no point in time, can any of your developers actually do something wrong. Now you have, >>That's the key. That's the key. That's the key because you're giving them a policy-based guardrails to execute in their programs >>And that's it. So now you can free up all those pieces. So all those bottlenecks, all those waiting all those time, and this is how all of our customers, they move from, you know, change advisory boards that approve deployments. >>Can you give us some, give us some, give us some, uh, customer anecdotal examples of this inaction and kind of the love letters you get, or, or the customer you take us through a use case of how it all. >>So this is one of my favorites. So NCR national cash register. If you slide a credit card at like a Chick-fil-A or a Safeway, right? Um, traditional technology. But what was interesting is they went from doing PCI audit, which would take seven days to go to a PCI audit right now with harness, because, >>And by the way, when you and the seventh, six day, the things that you did on day one change. >>Exactly, exactly. And so now, because of using harness and everything's audited, and all the changes are, are controlled to make sure that developers again, can only do what they're allowed. They only get to broadcast two per production. If they've met all their security requirements, all their compliance, permits, all their quality checks. Now, because of that, they literally gave a re read only view of harness to their auditor. And in three hours it was over. And it's because now we're that evidence file from code commit through to production. Yeah. It's there for point of sale compliant. >>So what is the benefits to them? What's the result saves them time, saves the money. What's the good, the free up more times. I'll see the chops it down. That's the key. >>Yeah. It's actually something we didn't build in like our ROI calculators, which was, we talked to their engineers and we gave them their nights and their weekends back, which I thought was amazing. But Thursday night, when we're doing that deploy, they don't have to be up. Harness is actually managing and understanding, using machine learning to understand what normal looks like. So they don't have to, they don't have to sit and look at the knock or sit in the war room and eat the free pizza. Yeah. Right. And then when those things break, same concept rates aren't as good. So >>I got to ask you, I got you here. You know, as the software development delivery lifecycle is radically being overhauled right now, which people generally agree that that's the case, the old models are, are different. How do you see your vision around AI and automation playing into this? Because you could say, okay, we're going to have different kinds of coding styles. This batch has got an AI block here. It's very Lego block. Like yep. Okay. Services and higher level services in the cloud. What's your reaction to how this impacts automation and >>Sure. So throughout our entire platform, we've designed our AI to take care of the worst parts of anyone's job as Guinea dev ops person. If they love babysitting deployments, they don't harness handles that for them, ask your engineers that they love sitting there waiting for their tests to run. Every time they build, they go get coffee, right. Because we're waiting for all of our tests to run. Y yeah. Right. The reality >>Is sometimes they have to wait days and >>That's it. But like, if I change the gas cap on, uh, on your car, would you expect me to check every light switch and every electronic piece? No. Well, why do we do that with code? And so our AI, our ML is designed to remove all the things that people hate. It's not to remove people's jobs. It's actually to make their jobs much better. >>How do you guys feed the data? What's the training algorithm for that? How does that work? Yeah, >>Actually, it's interesting. A lot of people think it's going to take a ton of time to figure this out. The good news is we start seeing this on the second deployment. On the second bill, we have to have a baseline of what good looks like, and that's where it starts. And it goes from there. And by the way, this isn't a lot of people say AI, and this AML, I teach a class on this because ML is not standard deviation. It's not some checks. So we use a massive amount of machine learning, but we have neural networks to think about things like engineers do. Like if we looked at a log and I saw the same log with two different user IDs, you and I would know, well, it's the same thing. It's just different users, but machine learning models. Don't so we've got to build neural networks to actually think like humans. So that, >>So that's the whole expectation maximization kind of concept of people talk about, >>Well, and that's it because at the end of the day, we're like I said, I'm not trying to take people's jobs. I want to meet. >>Yeah. You want to do the crap work out of the way. And I had to do other redundant, heavy lifting that they have to do every single time we use the cloud way. We've >>Built mechanical muscle in, in the early 19 hundreds. Right. And it made everyone's jobs easier, allowed them to do more with their time. That's exactly what we're doing here. >>I mean, we've seen the big old guys in the industry trying to evolve. You got the hot startups coming out. So you got, you know, adapt or die as classic thing. We've been saying for many years, David on the cube, you know that. So it's like, this is a moment of truth. We're going to see who comes out the other side. How do you, Nick, what would you be your, your kind of guess of when that other side is, when are we gonna know the winners and the losers truly in the sense of where we are now? >>So I think what I've found is that in this space specifically, there's a constant shift and this is something with software. And the problem is, is that we see them come in ebbs and flows, right. And very few times are there businesses that actually carry the model? And what you find is that when they focus on one specific problem, it solves it. Now, if I was working on VMs a few years ago, great, but now we're, we're here at coop con, right? And that's because it's eaten, uh, that side of the world. And so I think it's the companies that can actually grow the test of time and continue to expand to where the problems are. Right. And that's one of the things that I traditionally think about harness and we've done it. We cover our customers where they were, I think the old mainframes, if you had to, where they were, where they are at their traditional, their VM. >>I mean, if you think about it, Nick, it's one of those things where it's like, that's such a common sense way to look at it evolves with a problem. So I ride the right with tech ways. But if you think about the high order bit, here is just applications. We ended the day. Companies have applications that they want to write modern. The applications of their business is going to be codified so that you just work backwards from there. Then you say, okay, what is the infrastructure as code working for me? That's an ethos of dev ops. And that's where we're at. So that's why I think that the cloud need is kind of one already, but we still have the edge devices, more complexity. This is a huge next level conversation at one point is that we just put a hard and top on the complexity. When is that coming? Because the developers are clear. They want to go fast. They want to go shift left and have all that data, get the right analytics, the telemetry and the AI. But it's too complicated still. That is a big problem. >>It's too complicated. You ask for a full-stack developer to also know infrastructure, to also know edge computing. Like it's impossible, right? And this is where tooling helps, right? Because if you can actually parameterize that and make it to the engineers and have to care, they can do what they're best at. Hey, I'm great at turning code in artifact, let them do that and have tooling take care of the rest. This is where our goal is. Again, allow people >>We'll do what they love. And this is kind of the new roles that are changing. What SRE has done. Everyone talks about the SRE and some states just as he had dev ops guy, but it's not just that there's also, uh, different roles emerging. It's, it's an architectural game. At this point, we would say, >>I'd say a hundred percent. And this is where the decisions that you make on are architecturally. If you don't know how to then roll them out, this is what we've seen. Time and time again, you go to these large companies, I've got these great architectures on planning four years later, we haven't reached it because to that point process, >>The process killed them four >>Different new tools throughout the process. Well, yeah. >>So when do we hit peak Kubernetes peak >>Kubernetes? I think we have a bit to go in and I'm excited about the networking space and really what we're doing there and, and bringing that holistic portion of the network, like when Istio was originally released, I thought that was one of the most amazing things, uh, to truly come to it. And I think there's a vast space in networking. Um, and, and so I think in the next few years, we're going to see this, you know, turn into that a hundred percent utilized across the board. This will be that where everyone's workloads continue to exist. Um, somewhat like VMs we're in >>And, and, and no, no fear of developers as code in the very near future. You're talking about automating the mundane. Correct. Uh, there have been stories recently about the three-day workweek, you know, as a, as a fan of, um, utopian science fiction, myself, as opposed to dystopian. Absolutely. I think that, you know, technology does have the opportunity to lift all boats and, uh, and it's, it's not nothing to be afraid of. You know, the fact that I put my dishes in the dishwasher and they run by themselves for three hours. It's a good thing. It's a great thing. >>I don't need to deal with that. Yeah, I agree. No, I think that's, and that's what I said in the beginning. Right. That's really where we can start empowering people. So allow them to do what they're good at and do what they're best at. And if you look at why do people quit? We don't have to go so hard to find. Yeah. Why? Because they're secondary to babysit and implement and they're told everywhere they go, they're not going to have to >>That's the line. And that's all right. We got a break, but it's great insight to have you on the Q one final question for you. Um, I got to ask about the whole data as code something that I've been riffing on for a bunch of years now. And as infrastructures could we get that, but data is now the resource everyone needs, and everyone's trying to, okay, I have the control plane for this and that, but ultimately data cannot be siloed. This is a critical architectural element. How does that get resolved in the land of the competitive advantage and lock in and whatnot? What's your take on that? >>So data's an interesting one because it has, it has gravity and this is the problem. And as we move, as I think you guys know, as you move to the edge as remove, move it places there's insights to be taken at the edge there's insights to be taken as it moves through. And I think what you'll see honestly, going forward is you'll see compute done differently to your point. It needs to be aggregated. It needs to be able to be used together, but I think you'll see people computing it on its way through it. So now even in transport, you'll start seeing insights gained in real time before you can have the larger insights. And I see that happening more and more. Um, and I think ultimately we just want to empower that >>Nick, great to have you on CTO of field CTO of harness and harness.io is a URL. Check it out. Thanks for the insight. Thank you so much. Great comments. Appreciate it. Natural cube analysts right here, Nick, of course, we've got our, our analysts right here, David Nicholson. You're good on your own. I'm John for a, you know, we have the host. Thanks for watching. Stay with two more days of coverage. We'll be back after this short break.

>>Well, good day. And thank you for joining us here on the cube, John Walls here, uh, bringing you to this conversation as part of the AWS startup showcase. And we're joined by Justin bough, who is the SVP of product for amplitude and Justin. Good to see you today. How are you? >>I'm doing great. Thank you for having me, John. >>No pleasure. Looking forward to it. Um, you know, personalization that everybody's talking about these days and then how do we better personalize our, our digital presence, our digital products, um, you know, how do we get much more acutely aware of the end user at the end of the day and grow? I know that's what Amplitude's all about. So maybe if you just give us a 30,000 foot, um, perspective on that, about your thoughts about personalization today and how amplitude tries to affect >>For sure. Yeah. So I think first off personalization matters because it actually works. I think we live in a world where, as you know, we're drowning in content and distraction, uh, and it's been proven that customers respond better to digital experiences that are more personalized, that are more relevant for them. And frankly just save them time. Um, and the nice thing about this is not only the customers benefit, but companies do too. Uh, we actually see that a big impact on a company's bottom line, if they're able to, uh, deliver a more relevant customer experience to them because that leads to better engagement, better return, higher loyalty and lifetime value, uh, for those customers. >>So, um, well, let's, let's just go right to an example then, uh, I know you worked with a lot of different people, um, but there's anybody in particular that stands out, um, maybe give us an idea of a case study here about what practices you put into place, the kind of evaluations that you do, and ultimately the service that you're providing that allows them to increase sales and, and get a little more stickiness with them. >>Yeah, that's great. That's great. So I think one, uh, company customer of ours we're working with right now on this is actually Chick-fil-A. Uh, so people probably familiar with Chick-fil-A. Their mission is to be the most customer caring company in the world, uh, which I love in personalization is critical to that strategy because it helps them create a more relevant and seamless experience for their customers. Um, and the experience itself, and the app is actually pretty simple, which is the magic of personalization. So you open the Chick-fil-A app, uh, you see a list of menu items and those items are relevant to you based on your previous behavior. Um, after you order your entree, you're then offered a list of personalized sides. And then after that Alyssa personalized drinks, um, and the great thing is that as new items, uh, get introduced to the menu by Chick-fil-A you see the ones that are most relevant to you based on predicted affinity and all of the machine learning that we're doing in the background. And so really now Chick-fil-A is actually they're able to deliver a customized menu for everyone that automatically updates based on your behavior and your preferences. Um, and I think the real beauty of this is that they're able to configure all of this by a marketer through a simple UI. This did not require an army of data scientists or engineers. Uh, they're able to use the amplitude platform, uh, to build out this entire experience for their customers. >>Right. Cause I mean, it seems like there'd be an enormous amount of analytics that you have to apply here, right. Um, because you got all this structured and unstructured data, uh, you know, it's, it's all over the place, right. And a lot of times people don't even know what they have on hand. Um, and so you gotta, you gotta help them sift through all this. Right. So let's talk about that process a little bit for somebody who's watching and thinking about, well, that's all sounds well and good, but, but how do you kind of automate this? How do you make it so that we don't have to invest a lot in a team dedicated solely to, you know, sipping through our data and making it valuable for us? >>Yeah. I mean, I think that's the beauty of, uh, of amplitude actually offering this in that that's actually our original first product product analytics. That's what we've done. Um, so we've actually made an out of the box system that can read from all your different data sources. Um, so whether those be your product sources, marketing channels, data that sits in your data warehouse, um, but it's not just piping that data. Uh, we then combine that into a unique identity, uh, profile for that customer, um, across all those different touch points, um, and also have out of the box data governance, um, so that you can make sure you maintain, uh, the quality of that data profile, uh, over time. And then that gets fed into, um, our, what we call our behavioral graph. It's our database, uh, that's actually built to both understand and predict future behavior. And so all of this happens effectively out of the box for our customer. They don't need to do any of this, uh, themselves. Uh, we're managing all this for them. And then what they experience is, uh, an analytics application. So they can analyze that user behavior understand kind of what the drivers of different things like engage in retention are, and then use that to actually personalize the product experience. >>And, and you mentioned machine learning, um, talk about that aspect of this. I mean, how much more capability you have now because of what I know can deliver and, and, um, in some ways it adds some complexity, um, but also obviously it delivers exponentially, I would think in benefit at the end of the day. >>Yeah, for sure. I mean, it's just not possible to do one to one personalization without machine learning. I think that's actually, when we talk about the benefits and the advantages of personalization, it's probably even worth taking a step back. Like there's a lot of different types of personalization. Um, I think when you want to do behavioral personalization where you truly getting to one-to-one experiences, you have to use machine learning. Now you compare that to maybe like demographic personalization, which is actually, I think when most companies talk about when they're doing personalization, they're actually doing demographic personalization. That's like, are you a male or female? Um, what's your, you live in a city or a suburb. Um, uh, but the reality is like that light segmentation, it's not really that effective. Like do all women who live in a city behave the same, obviously not. Uh, and so, uh, we want instead to use behavior because your past behavior is the best predictor of your future behavior. >>Um, and, uh, and you need machine learning to be able to actually come up with, for an individual. What is their likelihood propensity to actually engage on any piece of content of which think about for you think about Chick-fil-A, how many different items they have in a menu. Um, you can think about like, we work with, um, a content company that has millions of different articles and they want to figure out what's the right article to put in front of you. Like, that's just not possible to actually analyze that by hand, uh, nor actually work working straight that, uh, uh, in real time without actually leveraging machine learning. Um, and so that's the exciting thing that's happened with, uh, new advances in, uh, supervisor and supervised learning models that we can actually do those in generalizable ways, uh, for our customers, >>Wait, we've talked a lot about behavioral, so that's obviously metrics you've been tracked. Right. I saw something and I clicked on something and I acted on something or watch something. These are all very measurable activities. On the other hand, though, as you know, in the consumer space, a lot of it's emotion too, you know, I make decisions based on, on my feelings or my thoughts or whatever. Can you, can you do any kind of unpeeling of my motivation in this almost like empathetic, uh, investigation so that you have an idea of what social cues on emanating or sending off? So, Hey, yeah, we can, we can get John this way too. >>Yeah. So I think a lot of it is, I mean, we're talking a lot about the science of, uh, product development, uh, for sure. And how do you bring personalization leveraging data? There is then the art of actually understanding, like what are the emotional States that users are in and like this isn't to say that the ability to personalize the product means that you're not actually bringing the heart as well. Like you act, it actually is a, both about the art and the science coming together. Um, and so you still need to, like, you're still gonna talk to your customers. You're still going to understand, uh, them and kind of what their, uh, different need States are, but this is then taking what you have, which you've built as a great product, then how do you optimize that? So we call it an optimization system, um, and actually deliver, uh, the best experience, uh, based on that customer's behavior. >>So just to kind of flip this a little bit, then what are you doing? Amplitude? What are you doing that, um, that hasn't been done before? I couldn't, I didn't understand that a lot of people think personalization just hasn't has a great horizon, has a lot of great promise. Well, but we're not there yet. I mean, what haven't we delivered on yet that you think amplitude is improving on and refining this capability? >>Yeah. So I think there are a couple of things there as to why we haven't fully seen the promise of personalization deliver no way. And I would say we're really starting to see that chasm emerge, where there are some companies that, you know, you think of, um, you know, Netflix, like obviously Amazon and others, who've done, who've been really successful here, but they've done it through armies of people. Um, what hasn't happened is a self-serve way of doing this so that it does not require massive investments, uh, in technical resources. Um, and so what we've solved for three things, um, one we've already talked about it, but it's just so true. Like this actually in and of itself is not an ML problem. First, it's actually a trustworthy data problem. Do you actually have the behavioral data that you can trust? Can you actually capture that across the entire customer journey because you can't personalize a journey if you don't even know what your users are doing to begin with. >>So you have to start there at that foundational level. Um, and that is a big part of our secret sauce is that we've built a database specifically catered to helping you understand that journey of that customer across all the different platforms and channels that they do. That's not easy to actually unify behavior in that fashion and allow you to analyze that in real time. Um, so that's the first thing that we did, um, is build that, uh, that database. So that's number one. And that's just the foundation. You have to have that, like, I, I think so many companies fail because they think we can go hire ML engineers, but if you don't have the foundation, it's not going to work. Um, the second thing isn't necessarily technological. It's more cultural, but it is really critical. And I think our analytics applications helped, uh, helped a lot here, which is you gotta break down the silos between marketing product engineering and data science. >>You actually have, you have to have all of them working together, um, to really be able to fulfill the promise of personalization because you have to be aligned and what's the outcome we're trying to drive, but that's actually how I literally can walk you through like the, how the, how the actual product works. But the first starting point is what are we trying to accomplish? Like in the Chick-fil-A example, it is, we want people to buy more than one item. Okay. So that's your goal. Like you have to get alignment that that is the goal. Cause if everyone's arguing about different goals, it doesn't matter what ammo model, like the model needs to know what we're trying to actually focus in on. Uh, and so how do you bring people together? And you do that through shared understanding of data. You do that through, we call it a North star, like we're aligned in what is the North star that we're focused on. >>And can you measure that? And that's analytics is focused in on that. And then when you have both of those, you've got behavioral data, you understand the journey of a customer you're aligned in the goals and outcomes you care about. Then you can leverage machine learning to actually deliver that personalized experience. And the advances that we're making there are actually doing that in a generalizable fashion. And so that does not have to be custom built for every single use case. Um, and our models are now able that we can run a model basically, uh, every hour to update for a customer. Um, and that scales horizontally, >>Well, I know of Chick-fil-A certainly has a track record that, um, is an arguable, right? And, and, and you've had a lot to do with satisfying that appetite for success. So, uh, Justin, uh, congratulations to amplitude. It's been a real pleasure speaking with you and thanks for the time today. >>Of course. >>Excellent speaking with Justin Bauer, the senior vice president of product at amplitude, and you've been watching the AWS startup showcase here on the cube.

(upbeat techno music) >> Well, good day. And thank you for joining us here on theCUBE. John Walls here, bringing you this conversation as part of the AWS Startup Showcase. And we're joined by Justin Bauer, who is the SVP of Product for Amplitude. And Justin, good to see you today. How are you doin? >> I'm doing great. Thank you for having me, John. >> Oh, you beat, no, a pleasure. Looking forward to it. You know, personalization. That's what everybody's talking about these days, and how do we better personalize our our digital presence, our digital products, you know, how do we get much more acutely aware of the end-user at the end of the day and grow? I know that's what Amplitude's all about. So maybe if you'd just give us a 30,000 foot perspective on that, about your thoughts about personalization today and how Amplitude tries to affect that. >> For sure, yeah. So I think, first-off, personalization matters because it actually works. I think we live in a world where, as you know we're drowning in content and distraction and it's been proven that customers respond better to digital experiences that are more personalized, that are more relevant for them. And frankly just save them time. And the nice thing about this is not only the customers benefit, but companies do too. We actually see that a big impact on a company's bottom line, if they're able to deliver a more relevant customer experience to them, because that leads to better engagement, better return (audio crackling drowns out speaker) and higher loyalty and lifetime value for those customers. >> So, well, let's just go right to an example then. I know you worked with a lot of different people. If there's anybody in particular that stands out, maybe give us an idea of a case study here about what practices you put into place, the kind of evaluations that you do, and ultimately, the service that you're providing that allows them to increase sales and get a little more stickiness with their customer. >> Yeah, that's great, that's great. So I think one company, a customer of ours we're working with right now on this, is actually Chick-fil-A. So people probably familiar with Chick-fil-A. Their mission is to be the most customer-caring company in the world, which I love. In personalization, it's critical to that strategy because it helps them create a more relevant and seamless experience for their customers. And the experience itself in the app is actually pretty simple, which is the magic of personalization. So you open the Chick-fil-A app, you see a list of menu items, and those items are relevant to you based on your previous behavior. After you order your entree, you're then offered a list of personalized sides. And then after that, a list of personalized drinks. And the great thing is that as new items get introduced to the menu by Chick-fil-A, you see the ones that are most relevant to you, based on predicted affinity, and all of the machine learning that we're doing in the background. And so really now Chick-fil-A is actually, they're able to deliver a customized menu for everyone that automatically updates based on your behavior, your preferences. And I think the real beauty of this is that they're able to configure all of this by a marketer through a simple UI. This did not require an army of data scientists or engineers. They're able to use the Amplitude platform to build out this entire experience for their customers. >> Right? Cause I mean, it seems like there'd be an enormous amount of analytics that you have to apply here, right? That because you got all this structured and unstructured data, ya know, it's all over the place, right? And a lot of times people don't even know what they have on hand. And so you got to help them sift through all this, right? So let's talk about that process a little bit for somebody who's watching and thinking about, "Well, that's all sounds well and good, "but how do you, kind of, automate this? "How do you make it so "that we don't have to invest a lot "in a team dedicated solely to, ya know, "sifting through our data "and making it valuable for us?" >> Yeah. I mean, I think that's the beauty of of Amplitude actually offering this in that that's actually our original first product, Product Analytics. That's what we've done. So we've actually made an out-of-the-box system that can read from all your different data sources. So whether those be your product sources, marketing channels, data that sits in your data warehouse. But it's not just piping that data. We then combine that into a unique identity, a profile for that customer, across all those different touch points, and also have out-of-the-box data governance so that you can make sure you maintain the quality of that data profile over time. And then that gets fed into our, what we call our behavioral graph. It's our database that's actually built to both understand and predict future behavior. And so all of this happens effectively out of the box for our customer. They don't need to do any of this themselves. We're managing all this for them. And then what they experience is an analytics application. So they can analyze that user behavior, understand kind of what the drivers of different things like engagement retention are, and then use that to actually personalize the product experience. >> And you mentioned machine learning. Talk about that aspect of this. I mean, how much more capability you have now because of what ML can deliver. And in some ways it adds some complexity but also, obviously, delivers exponentially, I would think, in benefit and value at the end of the day. >> Yeah, for sure. I mean, you, it's just not possible to do one-to-one personalization without machine learning. I think that's actually, when we talk about the benefits and the advantages of personalization, it's probably even worth taking a step back. Like, there's a lot of different types of personalization. I think when you want to do behavioral personalization, where you're truly getting to one-to-one experiences, you have to use machine learning. Now, you compare that to maybe like demographic personalization, which is actually, I think, when most companies talk about when they're doing personalization, they're actually doing demographic personalization. That's like, "Are you a male or female? "What's, do you live in a city or a suburb?" But the reality is like, that light segmentation, it's not really that effective. Like, do all women who live in a city behave the same? Like, obviously not. (laughs) And so we want instead to use behavior, because your past behavior is the best predictor of your future behavior, and you need machine learning to be able to actually come up with, for an individual, what is their likelihood, propensity, to actually engage on any piece of content? Of which, think about, for, you can think about Chick-fil-A, how many different items they have in a menu? You can think about, like, we work with a content company that has millions of different articles, and they want to figure out what's the right article to put in front of you. Like, that's just not possible to actually analyze that by hand nor actually orchestrate that in real time without actually leveraging machine learning. And so that's the exciting thing that's happened with new advances in supervised and unsupervised learning models. That we can actually do those in generalizable ways for our customers. >> We've talked a lot about behavioral, so that's obviously metrics you can track, right?. I saw something, I clicked on something. I acted on something and watched something. These are all very measurable activities. On the other hand, though, as you know in the consumer space, a lot of it's emotionally driven too. Ya know, I make decisions based on my feelings or my thoughts or whatever. Can you, can you do any kind of unpeeling of my motivation in this? Almost like empathetic investigation so that you have an idea of what social cues I'm emanating, or I'm sending it off, say, "Hey, yeah, we can "we can get John this way too." >> Yeah. So I think a lot of it is, I mean, we're talking a lot about the science of product development, for sure, and how you bring personalization leveraging data. There is then the art of actually understanding. Like, what are the emotional states that users are in? And like, this isn't to say that the ability to personalize the product means that you're not actually bringing the art as well. Like you act, it actually is about both the art and the science coming together. And so you still need to, like, you're still going to talk to your customers. You're still going to understand them and kind of what their different need-states are, but this is then taking what you have, which you've built as a great product, then how do you optimize that? That's why we call it an optimization system. And actually deliver the best experience, based on that customer's behavior. >> So just to kind of flip this a little bit then, what are you doing, Amplitude, what are you doing that hasn't been done before? I can, I understand that a lot of people think personalization just hasn't, has a great horizon, has a lot of great promise. Well, but we're not there yet. I mean, what haven't we delivered on yet that you think Amplitude is improving on and refining this capability? >> Yeah. So I think there are a couple things there as to why we haven't fully seen the promise of personalization deliver. Though we, and I would say, we're really starting to see that chasm emerge, where there are some companies that you know, you think of, you know, Netflix, like, obviously, Amazon and others, who've done, who've been really successful here. But they've done it through armies of people. What hasn't happened is a self-serve way of doing this so that it does not require massive investments in technical resources. And so what we've solved for are three things. One, we've already talked about it, but it's just so true. Like, this actually in and of itself is not an ML problem first, it's actually a trustworthy data problem. (chuckles) Do you actually have the behavioral data that you can trust? Can you actually capture that across the entire customer journey? Cause you can't personalize a journey if you don't even know what your users are doing to begin with. So you have to start there at that foundational level. And that is a big part of our secret sauce is that we've built a database specifically catered to helping you understand that journey of that customer across all the different platforms and channels that they do. That's not easy to actually unify behavior in that fashion and allow you to analyze that in real time. So that's the first thing that we did, is build that database. So that's number one. And that's just the foundation. You have to have that, like I said I think so many companies fail because they think, "We can go hire ML engineers." But if you don't have the foundation, it's not going to work. The second thing isn't necessarily technological, it's more cultural, but it is really critical. And I think our analytics application has helped a lot here, which is you've got to break down the silos between marketing, product, engineering, and data science. You actually have, you have to have all of them working together to really be able to fulfill the promise of personalization because you have to be aligned on, "What's the outcome we're trying to drive?" Like, that's actually how, I literally can walk you through like the, how the actual product works. But the first starting point is, "What are we trying to accomplish?" (chuckles) Like, in the Chick-fil-A example, it is, "We want people to buy more than one item." Okay, so that's your goal. Like, you have to get alignment that that is the goal. Cause if everyone's arguing about different goals, it doesn't matter what ML model, like the model needs to know what we're trying to actually focus in on. And so how do you bring people together? And you do that through shared understanding of data. Like you do that through, we call it a North Star. Like, "We're aligned and what is the North Star that we're focused on?" And can you measure that? And that's analytics, is focused in on that. And then when you have both of those, you've got behavioral data, you understand the journey of a customer, you're aligned on the goals and outcomes you care about. Then you can leverage machine learning to actually deliver that personalized experience. And the advances that we're making there are in actually doing that in a generalizable fashion. So that does not have to be custom built for every single use case. And our models are now able, that we can run a model, basically, every hour to update for a customer, and that scales horizontally. >> Well, I know Chick-fil-A certainly has a track record. That is inarguable, right? And, and you've had a lot to do with satisfying that appetite for success. So Justin, congratulations to Amplitude. It's been a real pleasure speaking with you and thanks for the time today. >> Of course, no, it's been great, thank you for having me. >> Excellent, speaking with Justin Bauer, the Senior Vice President of Product at Amplitude. And you've been watching the AWS Startup Showcase here on theCUBE. (soft marimba-techno music)

>> Announcer: Live from San Diego, California, it's theCUBE covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. Brought to you by RedHat, the CloudNative Computing Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Stu: Welcome back to theCUBE, I'm Stu Miniman. My cohost for three days of coverage is John Troyer. We're here at KubeCon CloudNativeCon in San Diego, over 12,000 in attendance and happy to welcome back a CUBE alumni and veteran of generations of the stacks that we've seen come together and change over the time, Sheng Liang, who is the co-founder and CEO of Rancher Labs. Thanks so much, great to see you. >> Shang: Thank you Stuart, is very glad to be here. >> All right, so you know Kubernetes, flash to the pan nobody's all that excited about it. I mean, we've seen all these things come and go over the years, Sheng. No but seriously, the excitement is palpable. Every year, you know, so many more people, so many more projects, so much more going on. Help set the stage for you, as to what you see and the importance today of kind of CloudNative in general and you know, this ecosystem specifically. >> Yeah you're so right though, Stuart. Community as a whole and Kubernetes has really come a long way. In the early days, Kubernetes was a uh, you know, somewhat of a technical community, lot of Linux people. But not a whole lot of end users. Not a whole lot of Enterprise customers. I walk in today and just the kind of people I've met, I've probably talked to fifty people already who are just really at the beginning of the show and uh there's a very very large number Enterprise customers. And this does feel like Kubernetes has crossed the chasm and headed in to the mainstream Enterprise market. >> Yeah it's interesting you know I've talked to you know plenty of the people here probably if you brought up things like OpenStack and CloudStack they wouldn't even know what we were talking about. The wave of containerization really seemed to spread far and wide. At Rancher you've done some surveys, give us some of the insight. What are you seeing? You've talked to plenty of customers. Give us where we are with the maturity. >> Definitely, definitely. Enterprise Kubernetes adoption is ready for prime time. You know the So what we're really seeing is some of the early challenges a few years ago a lot of people were having problems with just installing Kubernetes. They were literally just making sure to get people educated about container as a concept. Those have been overcome. Now, uh, we're really facing next generation of growth. And people solve these days solve problems like how do I get my new applications onboarding to Kubernetes. How do I really integrate Kubernetes into my multicloud and hybrid-Cloud strategy? And as Enterprise's need to perform computing in places beyond just the data centers and the cloud, we're also seeing tremendous amount of interest in running Kubernetes on the Edge. So those are some of the major findings of our survey. >> John: That's great. So Sheng I'd love for you to kind of elaborate or elaborate for us where Rancher fits into this. Right. Rancher is, you've been around, you've a mature stack of technology and also some new announcements today so I'd kind of love for you to kind of tell us how you fit in to that landscape you just described. >> Absolutely. This is very exciting and very very fast changing industry. So one of the things that Rancher is able to play very well is we're really able to take work with the community, take the latest and greatest open source technology and actually develop open source products on top this and make that technology useful and consumable for Enterprise at large. So the way we see it, to make Kubernetes work we really need to solve problems at three levels. At the lowest level, the industry need at lot of compliant and compatible certified Kubernetes distros and services. So that's table stakes now. Rancher is a leader in providing CNCF certified Kubernetes distro. We actually provide two of them. One of them is called RKE - Rancher Kubernetes Engine. Something we've been doing it for years. It's really one of the easiest to use and most widely deployed Kubernetes distributions. But we don't force our customers to only use our Kubernetes distribution. Rancher customers can use whatever CNCF certified Kubernetes distribution or Kubernetes services they want. So a lot of our customers use RKE(Rancher Kubernetes Engine) but they also use, when they go to the cloud, they use cloud hosted Kubernetes Services like GKE and EKS. There are really a lot of advantages in using those because cloud providers will help you run these Kubernetes clusters for free. And in many cases they even throw in the infrastructure it takes to run the Kubernetes masters and etcd databases for free. If you're in the cloud, there's really no reason not to be using these Kubernetes services. Now there's one area that Rancher ended up innovating at the Kubernetes distros, despite having these data center focus and cloud focus Kubernetes distros and services. And that is one of our, one of the two big announcements today. And that's called K3S. K3S is a great open source project. It's probably one of the most exciting open source projects in the Kubernetes ecosystem today. And what we did with K3S is we took Kubernetes that's been proven in data center and cloud and we brought it everywhere. So with K3S you can run Kubernetes on a Raspberry Pi. You can run Kubernetes in a surveillance camera. You can run Kubernetes in an ATM machine. You know, we have customers trying to run now Kubernetes in a uh, factory floor. So it really helps us realize our vision of Kubernetes as a new Linux and you run it everywhere. >> Well that's great 'cause you talk about that simplicity that we need and if you start talking about Edge deployment, I don't have the people, I don't have the skillset, and a lot times I don't have the gear, uh, to run that. So you know, help connect the dots as to you know, what led Rancher to do the K3S piece of it and you know, what did we take out? Or what's the differences between K8S and the K3S? >> That's a great question, you know. Even the name "K3S" is actually somewhat a wordplay on K8S You know we kind of cut half of 8 away and you're left with 3. It really happened with some of our early traction we sawing some customers. I remember, in retrospect it wasn't really that long ago. It was like middle of last year, we saw a blog coming out of Chick-fil-A and a group of technical enthusiasts were experimenting with actually running uh, Kubernetes in very, in like Intel Nook servers. You know, they were talking about potentially running three of those servers in every one of their stores and at the time they were using RKE and Rancher Kubernetes Engine to do that. And they run into a lot of issues. I mean to be honest if you think about running Kubernetes in the cloud in the database center, uh these servers have a lot of resources and you also have a dedicated operations teams. You have an SRE to manage them, right? But when you really bring it out into branch offices and Edge computing locations, now all of the sudden, number one, these uh, the software now has to take a lot less resource but also you don't really have SREs monitoring them every day anymore. And you, since these, Kubernetes distro really has to be zero touch and it has to run just like a, you know like a embedded window or Linux server. And that's what K3S was able to accomplish, we were able to really take away lot of the baggage that came with having all the drivers that were necessary to run Kubernetes in the cloud and we were also able to dramatically simplify what it takes to actually start Kubernetes and operate it. >> So unsolicited, I was doing an event right before this one and I asked some people what they looking forward to here at KubeCon. And independently, two different people said, "The thing I'm most excited about is K3S." And I think it's because it's the right slice through Kubernetes. I can run it in my lab. I can run it on my laptop. I can on a stack of Raspberry Pis or Nooks, but I could also run it in production if I, you know I can scale it up >> Stu: Yeah. >> John: And in fact they both got a twinkle in their eye and said well what if this is the future of Kubernetes, like you could take this and you could run it, you know? They were very excited about it. >> Absolutely! I mean, you know, I really think, you know, as a company we survive by, and thrive by delivering the kind of innovation that pushes the market forward right? I mean, we, otherwise people are not going to look at Rancher and say you guys are the originators of Kubernetes technology. So we're very happy to be able to come up with technologies like K3S that effectively greatly broadened the addressable market for everyone. Imagine you were a security vendor and before like all you really got to do is solving security problems. Or if you were a monitoring vendor you were able to solve monitoring problems for a data center and in the cloud. Now with K3S you end up getting to solve the same problems on the Edge and in branch offices. So that's why so many people are so excited about it. >> All right so Sheng you said K3S is one of the announcements this week, what's the rest of the news? >> Yeah so K3S, RKE, and all the GKE, AKS, EKS, they're really the fundamental layer of Kubernetes everywhere. Then on top of that one of the biggest piece of innovation that Rancher labs created is the idea of multi-cluster management. A few years ago it was pretty much of a revolutionary concept. Now it's widely understood. Of course an organization is not going to have just one cluster, they're going to have many clusters. So Rancher is the industry leader for doing multi-cluster management. And these clusters could span clouds, could span data centers, now all the way out to branch offices and the Edge. So we're exhibiting Rancher on the show floor. Everyone, most people I've met here, they know Rancher because of that flash of product. Now our second announcement though is yet another level above Rancher, so what we've seen is in order to really Kubernetes to achieve the next level of adoption in the Enterprise we're seeing you know some of the development teams and especially the less skilled dev ops teams, they're kind of struggling with the learning curve of Kubernetes and also some of the associated technologies around service mesh around Knative, around, you know, CICD, so we created a project called Rio, as in Rio de Janeiro the city. And the nice thing about Rio is it packaged together all these Cloud Native technologies and then we created very easy to use, very simple to understand user experience for developers and dev ops teams. So they no longer have to start with the training course on Kubernetes, on Istio, on Knative, on Tekton, just to get productive. They can pretty much get productive on day one. So that Rio project has hit a very important milestone today, we shipped the beta release for it and we're exhibiting it at the booth as well. >> Well that's great. You know, the beta release of Rio, pulling together a lot of these projects. Can you talk about some folks that, early adopters that have been using them or some folks that have been working with the project? >> Sheng: Yeah absolutely. So I talk about some of the early adoption we're seeing for both K3S and Rio. Uh, what we see the, first of all just the market reception of K3S, as you said, has been tremendous. Couple of even mentioned to you guys today in your earlier interviews. And it is primarily coming from customers who want to run Kubernetes in places you probably haven't quite anticipated before, so I kind of give you two examples. One is actually appliance manufacture. So if you think they used to ship appliances, then you can imagine these appliances come with Linux and they would image their appliance with an OS image with their applications. But what's happening is these applications are becoming so sophisticated they're now talking about running the entire data analytics stack and AI software. So it actually takes Kubernetes not necessarily, because it's one server in a situation of appliance. Kubernetes is not really managing a cluster, but it's managing all the application components and microservices. So they ended up bundling up K3S into their appliance. This is one example. Another example is actually an ISV, that's a very interesting use case as well. So uh, they ship a micro service based application software stack and again their software involves a lot of different complicated components. And they decided to replatform their software on Kubernetes. We've all heard a lot of that! But in their case they have to also ship, they don't just run the software themselves, they have to ship the software to the end users. And most of their end users are not familiar with Kubernetes yet, right? And they don't really want to say, to install our software you go provision the Kubernetes cluster and then you operate it from now on. So what they did is they took K3S and bundled into their application as if it were an application server, almost like a modern day WebLogic and WebSphere, then they shipped the whole thing to their customers. So I thought both of these use cases are really interesting. It really elevates the reach of Kubernetes from just being almost like a cloud platform in the old days to now being an application server. And then I'll also quickly talk about Rio. A lot of interest inside Rio is around really dev ops teams who've had, I mean, we did a survey early on and we found out that a lot of our customers they deploy Kubernetes in services. But they end up building a custom experience on top of their Kubernetes deployment, just so that most of their internal users wouldn't have to take a course on Kubernetes to start using it. So they can just tell that this thing that, this is where my source code is and then every thing from that point on will be automated. So now with Rio they wouldn't have to do that anymore. Effectively Rio is the direct source to URL type of, one step process. And they are able to adopt Rio for that purpose. >> So Sheng, I want to go back to when we started this conversation. You said, you know, the ecosystem growing. That not only, you know, so many vendors here, 129 end users, members of the CNCF. The theme we've been talking about is to really, you know, it's ready for production and people are all embracing it. But to get the vast majority of people, simplicity really needs to come front and center, I think. K3S really punctuates that. What else do we need to do as an ecosystem, you know, Rancher is looking to take a leadership position and help drive this, but what else do you want to see from your peers, the community, overall to help drive this to the promise that it could deliver. >> We really see the adoption of Kubernetes is probably going to wing at three, I mean. We see most organizations go through this three step journey. The first step is you got to install and operate Kubernetes. You know, day one, day two. And I think we've got it down. With K3S it becomes so easy. With GKE it becomes one API call or one simple UI interaction. And CNCS has really stepped up and created a great, you know, compliance certification program, right? So we're not seeing the kind of fragmentation that we saw with some of the other technologies. This is fantastic. Then the second step we see is, which a lot of our customers are going through now, is now you have all the Kubernetes clusters coming from different clouds, different infrastructure, potentially on the Edge. You have a management problem. Now you all of the sudden because we made Kubernetes clusters so easy to obtain you can potentially have a sprawl. If you are not careful you might leave them misconfigured. That could expose a security issue. So really it takes Rancher, it takes our ecosystem partners, like Twistlock, like Aqua. CICD partners, like CloudBees, GitLab. Just everyone really needs to come together, make that, solve that management problem. So not only, uh, you build this Kubernetes infrastructure but then you actually going to get a lot of users and they can use the cluster securely and reliably. Then I think the third step, which I think a lot of work still remain is we really want to focus on growing the footprint of workload, of enterprise workload, in the enterprise. So there the work is honestly just getting started. Anywhere from uh, if you walk into any enterprise you know what percentage of their total workload is running on Kubernetes today? I mean outside of Google and Uber, that percentage is probably very small, right? They're probably in the minority, maybe even in single digit percentage. So, we really need to do a lot of work. You know, we need to uh, Rancher created this project called LongHorn and we also work with a lot of our ecosystem partners in persistence storage area like Portworx, StorageOS, OpenEBS. Lot of us really need to come together and solve this problem of running persistent workload. I mean there was also a lot of talk about it at the keynote this morning, I was very encouraged to hear that. That could easily double, triple the amount of workload that could bring, that could be onboarded into Kubernetes and even experiences like Rio, you know? Make it further simpler, more accessible. That is really in the DNA of Rancher. Rancher wouldn't be surviving and thriving without our insight into how to make our technology consumable and widely adopted. So a lot of work we're doing is really to drive the adoption of Kubernetes in the enterprise beyond, you know, the current state and into something I really don't see in the future, Kubernetes wouldn't be as actually widely used as say AWS or vSphere. That would be my bar for success. Hopefully in a few years we can be talking about that. >> All right, that is a high bar Sheng. We look forward to more conversations with you going forward. Congratulations on the announcement. Great buzz on K3S, and yeah, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you very much. >> For John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, back with lots more coverage here from KubeCon CloudNativeCon 2019 in San Diego, you're watching theCUBE. [Upbeat music]

>> Announcer: From Seattle, Washington, it's theCUBE! Covering AWS IMAGINE Nonprofit. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services. >> Hey, welcome back everybody, Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're in the waterfront in Seattle, Washington, it's absolutely gorgeous here the last couple of days. We're here for the AWS IMAGINE Nonprofit event. We were here a couple weeks ago for the education event, now they have a whole separate track for nonprofits, and what's really cool about nonprofits is these people, these companies are attacking very, very big, ugly problems. It's not advertising, it's not click here and get something, these are big things, and one of the biggest issues is human trafficking. You probably hear a lot about it, it's way bigger than I ever thought it was, and we're really excited to have an expert in the field that, again, is using the power of AWS technology as well as their organization to help fight this cause. And we're excited to have Brad Myles, he is the CEO of Polaris and just coming off a keynote, we're hearing all about your keynote. So Brad, first off, welcome. >> Yeah, well thank you, thank you for having me. >> Absolutely, so Polaris, give us a little bit about kind of what's the mission for people that aren't familiar with the company. >> Yeah, so Polaris, we are a nonprofit that works full-time on this issue. We both combat the issue and try to get to long-term solutions, and respond to the issue and restore freedom to survivors by operating the National Human Trafficking Hotline for the United States, so, it's part kind of big data and long-term solutions, and it's part responding to day-to-day cases that break across the country every day. >> Right, in preparing for this interview and spending some time on the site there was just some amazing things that just jump right off the page. 24.9 million people are involved in this. Is that just domestically here in the States, or is that globally? >> That's a global number. So when you're thinking about human trafficking, think about three buckets. The first bucket is any child, 17 or younger, being exploited in the commercial sex trade. The second bucket is any adult, 18 or over, who's in the sex trade by force, fraud, or coercion. And the third bucket is anyone forced to work in some sort of other labor or service industry by force, fraud, or coercion. So you've got the child sex trafficking bucket, you've got the adult sex trafficking bucket, and then you've got all the labor trafficking bucket, right? You add up those three buckets globally, that's the number that the International Labour Organization came out and said 25 million around the world are those three buckets in a given year. >> Right, and I think again, going through the website, some of the just crazy discoveries, it's the child sex trafficking you can kind of understand that that's part of the problem, the adult sex trafficking. But you had like 25 different human trafficking business models, I forget the term that was used, for a whole host of things well beyond just the sex trade. It's a very big and unfortunately mature industry. >> Totally, yeah, so we, so the first thing that we do that we're kind of known for is operating the National Human Trafficking Hotline. The National Human Trafficking Hotline leads to having a giant data set on trafficking, it's 50,000 cases of trafficking that we've worked on. So then we analyzed that data set and came to the breakthrough conclusion that there are these 25 major forms, and almost any single call that we get in to the National Hotline is going to be one of those 25 types. And once you know that then the problem doesn't seem so overwhelming, it's not, you know, thousands of different types, it's these 25 things, so, it's 18 labor trafficking types and seven sex trafficking types. And it enables a little bit more granular analysis than just saying sex trafficking or labor trafficking which is kind of too broad and general. Let's get really specific about it, we're talking about these late night janitors, or we're talking about these people in agriculture, or we're talking about these women in illicit massage businesses. It enables the conversation to get more focused. >> Right, it's so interesting right, that's such a big piece of the big data trend that we see all over the place, right? It used to be, you know, you had old data, a sample of old data that you took an aggregate of and worked off the averages. And now, because of big data, and the other tools that we have today, now actually you can work on individual cases. So as you look at it from a kind of a big data point of view, what are some of the things that you're able to do? And that lead directly to, everyone's talking about the presentation that you just got off of, in terms of training people to look for specific behaviors that fit the patterns, so you can start to break some of these cases. >> Exactly, so, I think that the human trafficking field risks being too generic. So if you're just saying to the populace, "Look for trafficking, look for someone who's scared." People are like, that's not enough, that's too vague, it's kind of slipping through my fingers. But if you say, "In this particular type of trafficking, "with traveling magazine sales crews, "if someone comes to your door "trying to sell you a magazine with these specific signs." So now instead of talking about general red flag indicators across all 25 types, we're coming up with red flag indicators for each of the 25 types. So instead of speaking in aggregate we're getting really specific, it's almost like specific gene therapy. And the data analysis on our data set is enabling that to happen, which makes the trafficking field smarter, we could get smarter about where victims are recruited from, we could get smarter about intervention points, and we could get smarter about where survivors might have a moment to kind of get help and get out. >> Right, so I got to dig into the magazine salesperson, 'cause I think we've all had the kid-- >> Brad: Have you had a kid come to you yet? >> Absolutely, and you know, you think first they're hustlin' but their papers are kind of torn up, and they've got their little certificate, certification. How does that business model work? >> Yeah, so that's one of the 25 types, they're called mag crews. There was a New York Times article written by a journalist named Ian Urbina who really studied this and it came out a number of years ago. Then they made a movie about it called "American Honey," if you watch with a number of stars. But essentially this is a very long-standing business model, it goes back 30 or 40 years of like the door-to-door salesperson, and like trying to win sympathy from people going to door-to-door sales. And then these kind of predatory groups decided to prey on disaffected U.S. citizen youth that are kind of bored, or are kind of working a low-wage job. And so they go up to these kids and they say, "Tired of working at the Waffle House? "Well why don't you join our crew and travel the country, "and party every night, and you'll be outdoors every day, "and it's coed, you get to hang out with girls, "you get to hang out with guys, "we'll drink every night and all you have to do "is sell magazines during the day." And it's kind of this alluring pitch, and then the crews turn violent, and there's sometimes quotas on the crew, there's sometimes coercion on the crew. We get a lot of calls from kids who are abandoned by the crew. Where the crew says, "If you act up "or if you don't adhere to our rules, "we'll just drive away and leave you in this city." >> Wherever. >> Is the crews are very mobile they have this whole language, they call it kind of jumping territory. So they'll drive from like Kansas City to a nearby state, and we'll get this call from this kid, they're like, "I'm totally homeless, my crew just left me behind "because I kind of didn't obey one of the rules." So a lot of people, when they think of human trafficking they're not thinking of like U.S. citizen kids knocking on your door. And we're not saying that every single magazine crew is human trafficking, but we are saying that if there's force, and coercion, and fraud, and lies, and people feel like they can't leave, and people feel like they're being coerced to work, this is actually a form of human trafficking of U.S. citizen youth which is not very well-known but we hear about it on the Hotline quite a lot. >> Right, so then I wonder if you could tell us more about the Delta story 'cause most of the people that are going to be watching this interview weren't here today to hear your keynote. So I wonder if you can explain kind of that whole process where you identified a specific situation, you train people that are in a position to make a difference and in fact they're making a big difference. >> Yeah. So the first big report that we released based on the Hotline data was the 25 types, right? We decided to do a followup to that called Intersections, where we reached out to survivors of trafficking and we said, "Can you tell us about "the legitimate businesses that your trafficker used "while you were being trafficked?" And all these survivors were like, "Yeah, sure, "we'll tell you about social media, "we'll tell you about transportation, "we'll tell you about banks, "we'll tell you about hotels." And so we then identified these six major industries that traffickers use that are using legitimate companies, like rental car companies, and airlines, and ridesharing companies. So then we reached out to a number of those corporate partners and said, "You don't want this stuff on your services, right?" And Delta really just jumped at this, they were just like, "We take this incredibly seriously. "We want our whole workforce trained. "We don't want any trafficker to feel like "they can kind of get away with it on our flights. "We want to be a leader in transportation." And then they began taking all these steps. Their CEO, Ed Bastian, took it very seriously. They launched a whole corporate-wide taskforce across departments, they hosted listening sessions with survivor leaders so survivors could coach them, and then they started launching this whole strategy around training their flight attendants, and then training their whole workforce, and then supporting the National Human Trafficking Hotline, they made some monetary donations to Polaris. We get situations on the Hotline where someone is in a dangerous situation and needs to be flown across the country, like an escape flight almost, and Delta donated SkyMiles for us to give to survivors who are trying to flee a situation, who needs a flight. They can go to an airport and get on a flight for free that will fly them across the country. So it's almost like a modern day Underground Railroad, kind of flying people on planes. >> Jeff: Right, right. >> So they've just been an amazing partner, and they even then took the bold step of saying, "Well let's air a PSA on our flights "so the customer base can see this." So when you're on a Delta flight you'll see this PSA about human trafficking. And it just kept going and going and going. So it's now been about a five-year partnership and lots of great work together. >> And catching bad guys. >> Yeah, I mean, their publicity of the National Human Trafficking Hotline has led to a major increase in calls. Airport signage, more employees looking for it, and I actually do believe that the notion of flying, if you're going to be a trafficker, flying on a Delta flight is now a much more harrowing experience because everyone's kind of trained, and eyes and ears are looking. So you're going to pivot towards another airline that hasn't done that training yet, which now speaks to the need that once one member of an industry steps up, all different members of the industry need to follow suit. So we're encouraging a lot of the other airlines to do similar training and we're seeing some others do that, which is great. >> Yeah, and how much of it was from the CEO, or did he kind of come on after the fact, or was there kind of a champion catalyst that was pushing this through the organization, or is that often the case, or what do you find in terms of adoption of a company to help you on your mission? >> That's a great question. I mean, the bigger picture here is trafficking is a $150 billion industry, right? A group of small nonprofits and cops are not going to solve it on their own. We need the big businesses to enter the fight, because the big businesses have the resources, they have the brand, they have the customer base, they have the scale to make it a fair fight, right? So in the past few years we're seeing big businesses really enter the fight against trafficking, whether or not that's big data companies like AWS, whether or not that's social media companies, Facebook, whether or not that's hotel companies, like Wyndham and Marriott, airlines like Delta. And that's great because now the big hitters are joining the trafficking fight, and it happens in different ways, sometimes it's CEO-led, I think in the case of Delta, Ed Bastian really does take this issue very seriously, he was hosting events on this at his home, he's hosted roundtables of other CEOs in the Atlanta area like UPS, and Chick-fil-A, and Home Depot, and Coca-Cola, all those Atlanta-based CEOs know each other well, he'll host roundtables about that, and I think it was kind of CEO-led. But in other corporations it's one die hard champion who might be like a mid-level employee, or a director, who just says, "We really got to do this," and then they drive more CEO attention. So we've seen it happen both ways, whether or not it's top-down, or kind of middle-driven-up. But the big picture is if we could get some of the biggest corporations in the world to take this issue seriously, to ask questions about who they contract with, to ask questions about what's in their supply chain, to educate their workforce, to talk about this in front of their millions of customers, it just puts the fight against trafficking on steroids than a group of nonprofits would be able to do alone. So I think we're in a whole different realm of the fight now that business is at the table. >> And is that pretty much your strategy in terms of where you get the leverage, do you think? Is to execute via a lot of these well-resourced companies that are at this intersection point, I think that's a really interesting way to address the problem. >> Yeah, well, it's back to the 25 types, right? So the strategies depend on type. Like, I don't think big businesses being at the table are necessarily going to solve magazine sales crews, right? They're not necessarily going to solve begging on the street. But they can solve late night janitors that sometimes are trafficked, where lots of big companies are contracting with late night janitorial crews, and they come at 2:00 a.m., and they buff the floors, and they kind of change out the trash, and no one's there in the office building to see those workers, right? And so asking different questions of who you procure contracts with, to say, "Hey, before we contract with you guys, "we're going to need to ask you a couple questions "about where these workers got here, "and what these workers thought they were coming to do, "and we need to ID these workers." The person holding the purse strings, who's buying that contract, has the power to demand the conditions of that contract. Especially in agriculture and large retail buyers. So I think that big corporations, it's definitely part of the strategy for certain types, it's not going to solve other types of trafficking. But let's say banks and financial institutions, if they start asking different questions of who's banking with them, just like they've done with terrorism financing they could wipe out trafficking financing, could actually play a gigantic role in changing the course of how that type of trafficking exists. >> So we could talk all day, I'm sure, but we don't have time, but I'm just curious, what should people do, A, if they just see something suspicious, you know, reach out to one of these kids selling magazines, or begging on the street, or looking suspicious at an airport, so, A, that's the question. And then two, if people want to get involved more generically, whether in their company, or personally, how do they get involved? >> Yeah, so there are thousands of nonprofit groups across the country, Polaris is in touch with 3,000 of them. We're one of thousands. I would say find an organization in your area that you care about and volunteer, get involved, donate, figure out what they need. Our website is polarisproject.org, we have a national Referral Directory of organizations across the country, and so that's one way. The other way is the National Human Trafficking Hotline, the number, 1-888-373-7888. The Hotline depends on either survivors calling in directly as a lifeline, or community members calling in who saw something suspicious. So we get lots of calls from people who were getting their nails done, and the woman was crying and talking about how she's not being paid, or people who are out to eat as a family and they see something in the restaurant, or people who are traveling and they see something that doesn't make, kind of, quite sense in a hotel or an airport. So we need an army of eyes and ears calling tips into the National Human Trafficking Hotline and identifying these cases, and we need survivors to know the number themselves too so that they can call in on their own behalf. We need to respond to the problem in the short-term, help get these people connected to help, and then we need to do the long-term solutions which involves data, and business, and changing business practice, and all of that. But I do think that if people want to kind of educate themselves, polarisproject.org, there are some kind of meta-organizations, there's a group called Freedom United that's kind of starting a grassroots movement against trafficking, freedomunited.org. So lots of great organizations to look into, and this is a bipartisan issue, this is an issue that most people care about, it's one of the top headlines in the newspapers every day these days. And it's something that I think people in this country naturally care about because it references kind of the history of chattel slavery, and some of those forms of slavery that morphed but never really went away, and we're still fighting that same fight today. >> In terms of, you know, we're here at AWS IMAGINE, and they're obviously putting a lot of resources behind this, Teresa Carlson and the team. How are you using them, have you always been on AWS? Has that platform enabled you to accomplish your mission better? >> Yeah, oh for sure, I mean, Polaris crunches over 60 terabytes of data per day, of just like the computing that we're doing, right? >> Jeff: And what types of data are you crunching? >> It's the data associated with Hotline calls, we collect up to 150 variables on each Hotline call. The Hotline calls come in, we have this data set of 50,000 cases of trafficking with very sensitive data, and the protections of that data, the cybersecurity associated with that data, the storage of that data. So since 2017, Polaris has been in existence since 2002, so we're in our 17th year now, but starting three years ago in 2017 we started really partnering with AWS, where we're migrating more of our data onto AWS, building some AI tools with AWS to help us process Hotline calls more efficiently. And then talking about potentially moving our, all of our data storage onto AWS so that we don't have our own server racks in our office, we still need to go through a number of steps to get there. But having AWS at the table, and then talking about the Impact Computing team and this, like, real big data crunching of like millions of trafficking cases globally, we haven't even started talking about that yet but I think that's like a next stage. So for now, it's getting our data stronger, more secure, building some of those AI bots to help us with our work, and then potentially considering us moving completely serverless, and all of those things are conversations we're having with AWS, and thrilled that AWS is making this an issue to the point that it was prioritized and featured at this conference, which was a big deal, to get in front of the whole audience and do a keynote, and we're very, very grateful for that. >> And you mentioned there's so many organizations involved, are you guys doing data aggregation, data consolidation, sharing, I mean there must be with so many organizations, that adds a lot of complexity, and a lot of data silos, to steal classic kind of IT terms. Are you working towards some kind of unification around that, or how does that look in the future? >> We would love to get to the point where different organizations are sharing their data set. We'd love to get to the point where different organizations are using, like, a shared case management tool, and collecting the same data so it's apples to apples. There are different organizations, like, Thorn is doing some amazing big data-- >> Jeff: Right, we've had Thorn on a couple of times. >> How do we merge Polaris's data set with Thorn's data set? We're not doing that yet, right? I think we're only doing baby steps. But I think the AWS platform could enable potentially a merger of Thorn's data with Polaris's data in some sort of data lake, right? So that's a great idea, we would love to get to that. I think the field isn't there yet. The field has kind of been, like, tech-starved for a number of years, but in the past five years has made a lot of progress. The field is mostly kind of small shelters and groups responding to survivors, and so this notion of like infusing the trafficking field with data is somewhat of a new concept, but it's enabling us to think much bigger about what's possible. >> Well Brad, again, we could go on all day, you know, really thankful for what you're doing for a whole lot of people that we don't see, or maybe we see and we're not noticing, so thank you for that, and uh. >> Absolutely. >> Look forward to catching up when you move the ball a little bit further down the field. >> Yeah, thank you for having me on. It's a pleasure to be here. >> All right, my pleasure. He's Brad, I'm Jeff, you're watching theCUBE. We're at AWS IMAGINE Nonprofits, thanks for watching, we'll see you next time. (futuristic music)

>> From Gillette Stadium in Foxboro, Massachusetts, if the queue covering Vita Winter warmer, twenty nineteen brought to you by Silicon Angle media. >> Hi, I'm stew Minutemen. And this is the Cube Worldwide Leader and live tech coverage. >> We're on the ground here at the V Tug winter warmer, and it is twenty nineteen. It's actually, the thirteenth year of this event was one of the original, if not the original Veum, where user groups covers virtual ization, cloud computing and even Mohr, always great to be able to get back to the community, get some good interviews and no better person helped me start with my first interview at a show of the year. But good friend of the program, Keith Towns and he is the CTO advisor. And he's also now a slew front architect with the M. Where Keith. Thanks for joining >> us. Thanks for having me on the cute. >> Yeah. So, Keith, I mean, you were host of our program for a number of years. You're now, you know, back working on the vendor side. But you know, you know this community. You know what I always say in my career, There, certain communities, an ecosystem where there's just love to be a part of it. And the virtual ization group. You know, I've been part of it for a long time. You know, Veum, wear and beyond, though, you know people that you know, they get excited, They geek out on the technology and they love to share. And that's why we come to events like this. >> Yeah, it is amazing. Just, you know, the every every show is getting smaller, but maybe with the session of a Ws re event, but I don't think the intensity has shrunk at all. You get around friends, you know, we're just at a desk and one of the ten days, actually, how did I get a job doing X? And the community was like, Oh, you just talk to the people at this table. So it is. It is a great, great commute. >> Yeah, it's an interesting dynamic you talk about. You know, we've seen the huge growth in Meetups in user groups and regional shows. You know, vm Where does Veum World but the VM world being where forums around the globe. I'm sure you probably have to go for a few of those they've been doing well. I'm right back in my emcee Daisy M. C. Did a number of those. So we see you. Amazon Reinvent is growing, but oh, my God, they're regional shows are ridiculous. I I've said some of those regional shows either different communities or different localities can actually be even better than some of the big shows on. You know, we love Keith. We're happy to welcome you here to the home of the NFC Championship. New England Patriots ur >> First off, Congratulations. The wait went a little better for you to bare sand and say, You know what? Tom Brady won't play forever, so enjoy it. This is amazing backdrop through him. Little finish that you've not involved. Invited me to a veto before now. >> Oh. Oh, I'm sorry, Keith. It's It's a community thing that absolutely got to come. Absolutely. I've had friends. Most of them. It is local. I'm talking to users from Maine and Massachusetts, Rhode Island and Connecticut and like so you gave a keynote this morning and you didn't True fashion. You did a block post about reality check leading in, and I thought it was a great way for us to start is, You know, there's so much change in the industry, uh, those of us that are technologies that you know, we're super excited because there's so much new stuff. It's not like Oh, jeez, you know, twenty nineteen is probably going to be just like twenty eighteen. It's like, Oh, my gosh, what did I do in twenty eighteen? What do I have to change? How do I keep up? How do I manage it? I would love to get your viewpoint. You know what's going on with Keith? And you're talking about a lot of users, so you know how help share, You know, what is the reality? Check that everybody's going >> to know. We're talking about a pre recording in the banter. Just, you know, whether it's, you know, Vienna where we're hip Theo and all the stuff that Casey Kelsey Hightower is going out with Cooper Netease. Then as you spent spent out to serve earless, uh, infrastructures Cole scripting it centre. There's much to learn that you're a bit overwhelmed and we're seeing this out. You know, as I'm talking to executive CTO CEOs, VP of infrastructure, they're filling the same kind of excitement at the same time. Overwhelmed this Like what? What's what's really You know, we had the big cloud movements over a few years ago where I think we're at the height cycle where organizations are starting to understand that. You know, Cloud isn't the destination is part of a strategy, and everyone seems to be in the throes of figuring out what that means for us. We're just on the crowd chat, talking about multi Cloud and the drivers around. Multi Cloud. You guys did a great job hosting that cloud shit chat, nothing. We saw the gambit off where people are. You know, uh, there's not really a business rationality people who are really in the throes of trying to figure it out. >> Yeah, actually, I love to comment friend of ours that we've had on the program before, Bobby Allen from Cloud General said when he's working with companies, if they ask for a three year strategy plan, he said, I will not do it unless we guarantee that we will go revisit it every six months because I looked back. You know, Clay Christensen, you no way talks about strategy is strategy is a point in time thing, not something that you write it in stone. I've been saying for a couple of years cloud strategies that companies today is, they wrote it in ink and the ink still drying. And, you know, you're probably going to need toe, you know, go through it and change it because it is changing fast and therefore, you know, huge. Out I started Deploy something. Oh, wait, what about the next thing? Or there's some new practice or something to do it. So it is challenging because I need to run my business. Today. I got to set my budget for the year, usually, um and it's I need to be agile. But, you know, I can't constantly be tearing everything up and you're not going to be throwing it out or re training and skills. I mean, there's so many challenges. >> So still, you might remember when when I was on the other side of the the table. I, uh it was meant at somewhat of a D that Veum where moves at the speed of the aisle, and it was picked up as Maury compliment. But >> it was a >> big I'll be honest that it was a dig. And what I've learned the past few months is that Veum, where has to move at the speed of the CIA, is no longer and It's not just being wherever the community has and the CIA always faced with that we could do a few years ago. A cloud strategy, and that thing can sit on the desk for a year, and it would still be valid. But the bobbies point, if you're going to do a strategy and three year strategy, got to revisit that every six months and this agility that were not accustomed to previously in the industry, we have to now become super agile and figure out how do we keep the lights on and innovate at the pace That business, these witches? Pretty good chance. >> Yeah, it's attorney were beginning the year I made a comment personally said, You know, I'm not a big believer in, you know, setting. You know, Resolutions. Mohr. You know, let's set goals Your runner, I do some biking and it's like, Okay, you know, I've got a big race I want to do this year. I'm gonna work myself, you know, towards that goal and raise the money. You've got a certain target and something that you could do over the year. It's and there's no way that you do that, cos you know they've got goals that they need to accomplish and business. And it's great to say, Oh, well, we need to be more efficient. We need to do some down something different. But, you know, reality is, you know, it's not just digital transformation of modernizing. It was, you know. Oh, okay. Do I need to transform my backup? You know, data protection, you know, huge activity going on in the marketplace right now, you know? So, what >> is sixty million noon investment in one >> week? Exactly. You know, the wave of hyper convergence is one that really changed a lot of architectures and had people change. You know, we've talked cloud computing. They're what are some of the, You know, some of the big, you know, movements that you see, you know, will you? Tracking the industry? It was kind of the the intel refunds for a cycle, and, you know, Oh, well, it's the next version of Microsoft or, you know, Veum, where operating system would be one of those big, you know, kind of ticked. Talks of what? What are some of the big commonalities that you're seeing Al? So they're actually moving people to >> new things without a doubt. There is one conversation that customers cannot get the enough of. And I had Ah, on my little vlog. I had game being from Vienna, where V P off the Storch and Business availability unit and I challenged her on the via Where? Vision around this. But customers cannot get enough of having a conversation around data. What they What do they do with data? And how does a move data? How did they get compute closest to data? How did we get data they're closest to? They're re sources. We talked about it on the multi cloud conversation, but by far conversations are around. Howto they extract value from data had really protect data, and howto they make sure their compliant with the data is something that that's driving a lot of innovation and a lot of conversation. A lot of interest. >> Yeah, Keith, it's a great one. When I look at you know, our research team, that wicked bond data is that the center of everything. In many ways, the failings of big data was talking about, You know, the challenges. I have infrastructure. No, the growth and the variety and blah, blah, blah and everything that's not what important to the business they don't care about, You know, it's like, Oh, well, there's a storage problem in a network problem. It's the business says there's data, you know? Do I protect my bird business to make sure that I'm not a risk? You know, all the things like DDP are coming And can I livered value? Do I Can I get new lines of business? Can I generate revenue out of that? And I've seen early signs that we've learned this whole, You know, a I m l movement. You know, data, Really? At the center. All right, we've seen enough storage. We went from talking about storing data to about, you know, that data ecosystem, Andi, even computing and I ot data where data needs to be, how I work it. Absolutely a center. So, yeah, it's great to hear that. Customers are identifying that. We've been doing like, chief data officer events for many years. You know, where does data live? Is that a CEO Thing? Is that a different part of the business? I don't know if you've got anything you're seeing from, you know, your customers is Tau, >> who owns the Data initiative, So it's really interesting. I had a conversation with a major bank, and it was a one on one with the CDO and what I thought was the most tricky part of the conversation is that here, Not only does he report directly into the CIA, which you know is to be expected, but he meets regularly with the board of directors. So data were seen. I've seen these seedy old rolls being popped up, and it's not just about the technology as you mentioned. It's about the whole approach about this asset that we have. It's so critical that worth creating a sea level position that today might reporting to the CEO but is most definitely accountable to the border director. >> Well, yeah, Keith, it's that the trend we've been watching for a while, as it used to be, it was a cost center. And, you know, it's kind of, you know, that's what it was considered today. If it isn't in, you know, direct relationship, working with the business, the business will go find somebody else to do it. The whole stealthy movement. You know, I can go find an answer for what I'm doing. I think about project I've worked on in my career and been like, I wish it was easy. You know, fifteen years ago, it was today to do those. But we see security's a board level discussion data as a board level discussion is excellent. And all of those things that traditionally you would think that own them. Having awareness and visibility and information communication flow between the board in the C suite is great progress. You >> know, it's interesting. I was a big proponent of this prior to coming on The vendor side is that vendors have to start having conversations outside of it. So traditional infrastructure of injustice, his goal. Hurry, right saw and where the whole the Dale emcee Dale Technologies they have to skill up and have conversations with CIA moles. Seo's CEO Ole's H R directors because the these buying centers now have power to go out and buy solutions. You know, talked about in my no keynote this morning. You know how many people have worked day? How many people have salesforce applications? They had nothing to do when I had no nothing to do with the procurement of off these solutions. The ball is moving outside of just traditional for court technology is starting to get to the point where regular users can consume business users can consume these massive, massive solutions based on technology and just happens to be a label. The technology, whether sales Force worked in >> Sochi, thought on this this whole point there want to ask you, In my career, there's often been groups inside a business that didn't get along. And we, you know, built silos. You know, the storage in the network team don't get along cloud and traditional I t You know what we're fighting? You know who owns it? Turf wars Managing that, You know, have we built silos in multi cloud today? Is everybody holding hands and, you know, pointing the business in the same direction, you could kind of give us the good the bad. So what? We need to work on going forward. >> I think the good is that you know that the umbrella of infrastructure starting to work as a single. Uh, you So you have storage, compu networking, even configuration man groups that were kind of confrontational before and territorial. Those groups are starting. Tio. Come on. Their one senior manager or one senior executive looking at? How do you provide services as a group and providing those services? I think we're we're starting to see Silos is actually the developer versus the infrastructure group is developers just wantto FBI, too. A set of services. They want infrastructure to get away. Developers themselves. Haven't you know, kind of katende enough of the scars from heaven have to do operations, So there's a different view off the world. And, uh, today I think developers haven't yet getting the budget power off operations. But the business wants solutions, and they're going out there competing with traditional Teo get the dollars to run the services in the cloud or or wherever, however they consumed them, whether it's, you know, just saw Chick fil a's deploying two thousand ten points to run six thousand containers at the edge. Is that something that's run by tears? That something wrong? Run by developers? I don't know. Check feeling well enough to know about. This is what we're seeing in >> industry. Yeah. All right. Well, keep towns. And always a pleasure to catch up with you. Thanks so much for joining us. Be sure to check him out see Teo advisor on Twitter, check out his blogged. And of course, thank you so much for watching. We'll be back. Uh, lots more coverage here at V tug. Winter warmer, twenty nineteen. Thanks for watching.

>> From Seattle, Washington, it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat. The Cloud Native Computing Foundation and it's ecosystem partners. [techno Music] >> Okay, welcome back everyone. It's theCUBE's live coverage in Seattle for KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2018. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE. Stu Miniman. Breaking down all the action. Talking to all the thought leaders, all the experts, all the people making it happen. We're here with Aparna Sinha who's the group product manager, Kubernetes, Google Cloud. Also one of the power women of the Cloud at Google, according the Forbes. I wrote the story. Great to see you again. >> Thank you, great to be here with you. >> Thanks for coming on. >> CUBE alumni. Great to have you on. I want to get your prospective. One when you've seen a lot of action, certainly overseeing the group engineering team at Google and all the Kubernetes action. A lot of contribution, a lot of activity, that you guys are leading. >> Yes. >> And quite frankly enabling and contributing to the community. So, congratulations and thanks for that work. Kubernetes certainly looking good. People are pumped up. >> Very much. >> 8,000 people. A lot of activity. A lot of new things around that you guys are always kind of bringing into, the Geo, knative, a lot things. You gave a key note. What's your focus here this year? What's the message from Google? >> Yeah, well as you pointed out, this is the largest KubeCon ever. 8,000 people, 2,000 on the wait list. And people are telling me here that this is the... This is here to stay, right? It's in the early majority going to the mainstream very much like you kind of think about virtualization was 10 years ago. So that's the momentum that I'm seeing here, that I'm hearing here. My keynote was about the community. Thanking the community first of all. So I talked about how open-source really, success in contingent on contribution. And so, I started by showing the contribution over the last one year, the companies that are contributing. And 80% of contributions are by at least 10 entities. One of them is individual contributors. 40% percent I think was Google, which is still staggeringly high. And then the next highest was Red Hat. And so I think in many of the keynotes, we've been calling out the contributors because it's really important. 1.13, the 13th release of Kubernetes shipped last week. A lot of stability, a lot of GA features, and the uptake in the enterprise. The other thing I called out was just the amount of job opportunity in Kubernetes >> Yeah >> 230% growth in the last year. You see here so many customers that are here to talk about their experience. But also they're here to hire. >> Yeah. And there recruiters on the floor, so it's been I think a huge economic value add. And we feel very proud of that. >> Yeah, Aparna, great point. We've been talking about the end users. I always loved... There's a job board right outside the hall here and it's just covered. Big giant white board there. Bring us inside a little bit. I mean Google's always fascinating people. What's the hiring situation there? What's your team lookin' like? Is anybody smart enough to actually go work there? >> Google, I think we've been very, very fortunate in that we've had the original board team that started the Kubernetes project. And so we have a really, really deep bench because we've been running containers since the beginning. So now 15 years of experience with that, which many people tell me, I think that the reason that Kubernetes is so successful is because it's not new actually, right? >> Yeah >> It's been tried and true at scale. So, we have quite a bit of that, but we've been building this community and a lot of folks have been hired in through the community-- >> Yeah >> into Google. And really amazing, amazing people. So yeah. >> The thing about we had Brian Grant on yesterday and Tim Hockin -- Yes. >> Who was talking about some of those early board days. >> Yes. I want to ask you your point of about the hiring because I think this is a interesting dynamic. Open-source is key to your strategy. We've talked many times about how you guys are committed to open source, but what's interesting is not just net new jobs are available, we're seeing a revitalization around traditional roles like the network engineer under Kubernetes. Looking at the policy knobs that your folks pointed out that's... They think it's underutilized. And then on top of Kubernetes, new things are going on that's getting the app kind of server guy-- >> Yeah. >> Kind of energized. >> Yeah. >> It's kind of enabling a lot of thing, actions that's transforming existing jobs. >> That's right. >> And bringing new ones. >> Talk about that dynamic because you see it from both sides. >> Yes >> You've got SREs, site reliable engineers. >> Yes >> You've got developers. But, Now enterprises are now trying to adopt... >> That's right >> You guys are hitting that note. Talk about that dynamic. >> That's right, so I've been talking to a lot of customers here, it's been non-stop. I've not been able to attend any talks or keynotes. And I'm seeing two things. One there's the kind of operations now called platform teams. And they're under tremendous pressure. They're doing incredible work. Incredible. And they're energized. They're really... So one of the customers I was talking to was moving from VMs on EC2 to containers on GCE on Kubernetes. Google Cloud. And in the last one year, they looked... Honestly, they looked miserable because they have worked so hard in doing that transfomation. Turning their application from a VM-based application into containers. But you could also see that they were so happy and so successful because of the impact that it's had. And so and then I asked them so like, "What is driving that?" This is different customer. What is driving that? And it's really... As soon they get that environment up and running, and this is a large enterprise bank that I was talking to, this other one, their developers are just all over it. And they have, they have hundreds of services running within six months. And they're like, "Well we just got this platform up. "We still have to figure how we're going to upgrade it." But it's... So those are the two constituents. The developers are happy. >> The integration and delivery changes the makeup of how teams work. So that's one thing we're seeing here. And the other one is just scale. >> Yeah. >> So that seems to be the area. Now I got to ask you, as you guys look at... As you guys are doing the work on the enterprise side, you guys, I know you're working hard, I talk to Jennifer a lot, Jennifer Lynn, as well and we've talked before, are used to doing the work. But there's still a lot more work done. Where do you guys see the work that this community value opportunities for participants in the eco-system to fill white spaces? Where are the value lines starting to be drawn? Can you comment? >> Yeah, so I see two or three different areas. One of the areas is of course hardening. And that's why Janet Quill gave the keynote about "Kubernetes is boring and that's a good thing". And that's been something we've been working on for the last year at least. Adding a lot more security capabilities. Adding a lot more just moving everything to GA, right? Adding a lot more hooks in the enterprise storage and into enterprise networking. Building up the training and building up the partners that'll do the implementations. All of those things I think are very, very healthy. >> Yeah. >> Cause I see them. You probably talked to the CNCF. They're helping a lot with the certification and the training. So that's one piece of enterprise adoption. I think the other piece is the developer experience. And that's where a lot of the talks here, my key note as well, I demoed Istio and Knative on top of GKE. The developer experience is ultimately this whole thing. My perspective, this whole thing is about making your developers more productive. And developers have been driving this transition. Again going back to those customer examples. So that's getting a lot easier. >> Yeah, Aparna, I'd love you to talk a little about Knative. So, I know the excitement is there. Products only been around for five months. I remember at your show last summer it was announce and roll. Trying to understand exactly what it is. It's like, wait, wait is serverless going to kill Kubernetes? And how does this fit? How does this work with all the various services in the Cloud? Maybe just understand where we are. >> Right. >> What it is, what it isn't. >> Right. >> Again, so the heritage of serverless, I'm going to go back to Google, right? We have the first serverless offering in the world like 10 years ago. And so that's based on containers. Underneath it's based on containers. That's why we knew that with Kubernetes that's the right foundation for building serverless. And it actually, I think, we sort of held back for the longest time. And a couple of years ago there were one, two, and then 15, and then 17 serverless frameworks that just kind of all popped up around Kubernetes, on top of Kubernetes. I remember the first demo in the community. Here's this serverless piece. And at some point, a little bit over a year ago we decided that actually serverless is really important to our customers, to our users. The majority of Kubernetes tends to be on-prem, actually. And so it's important to them to have serverless capabilities on-prem. So then we need to make sure it's stable and it's something that's standard. >> I think it's a really important point... I talked to some people that are in the serverless ecosystem that is living on a AWS and they say, "You can't build serverless on-prem "because then you're racking "and stacking and dealing with it." And it's not... We know there's servers underneath of it and it's just system calls and how we consume that. But maybe explain the nuances to how this is important and we understand it. >> Yeah. >> There's not like a solution out there. >> Yeah. >> Server meshes, there's a lot of options out there right now. >> Yeah. >> So. >> A lot of things, because this is an open-source community, a lot of things come from the users. So when the user says, "You know what, actually need "the serverless capability on-prem. "Why? "Because I've got this developer group and I don't want "them to have to muck with the infrastructure. "I don't want them to have access to the infrastructure. "I want to just give them a simple interface "where they're going to write their applications "and the rest is taken care of for them." Right? And then I want to be able to bill them on a per-use basis. So, it's... Yeah there's someone managing the server. Someone building actually the severless capability and that's the platform team. That's the guys that I talked about that are working very hard these days happily. But, working very hard. >> And these are the new personas, by the way-- >> Yeah. >> In the enterprise. This is new kind of new re-architecting of how enterprises are creating value. These new platform teams. >> Right. >> This is the opportunity. Well I got to ask you, you know everyone that watches theCUBE knows I'm a big fan of scale. Love Amazon scale. I love Google scale. I love the enterprise market. And I want to get your thoughts... I want you to take a minute to explain the culture at Google Cloud. Because it's a separate building. Give you an opportunity to share. But you guys are working hard to go after the enterprise. It's not like a new thing. But the enterprise is interesting. It's not so much the best technology that wins. It's grit. It's almost like a street fight. You got to go out. You got to win those battles. Get all the work done. Hit those features. You can't just roll into town and say we've got great technology. We're Google. You guys recognize this. And I want you to share the culture you guys are building and how you guys are attacking the enterprise. What's the guiding principles? What are some of the core tenants? >> Yeah, yeah. So you know my entire life has been spent in enterprise software. >> Yeah. >> I do think that enterprises respect Google Cloud. I work very closely with them. And they respect certainly the engineering prowess. Like, "Wow. I need that." >> Yeah. Right? Especially you see all these enterprises that are being transformed by technology. Their industry is being transformed by technology. Whether that's in transportation, or it's in retail, or it's in media. And they want the best. They want the latest. Right? And they also don't necessarily have the skills, like you said, right? So they're looking for a partner that'll both help them scale up but also provide them all of that guidance. And the one thing you asked about culture at Google. I think we are a revolutionary company. We are willing to do lots of things. Lots of things that you wouldn't expect. And that's why you saw GK on-prem from my team, right? The first, kind of, Kubernetes on-prem offering from a cloud provider. Managed by a cloud provider. And that's really... I mean we've seen tremendous, tremendous interest in that. Tremendous feedback from our users and new customers. People that hadn't thought about it. Hadn't thought about Google, necessarily before that have said, "Wow. If you are going to come and help me on-prem "with this, I'm ready. "Give it to me now. "Because I trust you and I know I want to go to the Cloud. "So it's the right step for me. "You have the right incentives." Right? "And you're the open cloud, which is important to me "because I may want to be multi cloud." So that's the piece that is... >> You got the enterprise chops. You've spent your whole career there. I know Jennifer as well. >> Yes. >> A lot of people you guys have hired. >> Right. >> The good news is you've got a market that's changing. So you don't have to come in and replicate the old IT. So that's an opportunity at Google. How are you guys attacking that, that beachhead? Because you have the check. What's the vibe? What's the grit? What's it like... How you guys attacking the enterprise? What do you see as opportunities knowing the enterprise of old-- >> Yeah >> As it shifts to new kind of method? >> Yeah. >> What's the core? >> I think about the problems the users are having. I think about what is the problem the customer is facing. And so... And then breaking that down and solving that for them. I mean that's what's important, right? And so some of the problems I see is one they need a developer platform. And the developer platform sometimes cannot be in the Cloud. When I talk to large financial institutions, there's so much compliance and regulation and things that have to be on-prem. That it has to be on-prem. And they try to move to the Cloud and some things will do it. But the majority, like 90% is on-prem. And so they need an agile development environment and there's no holding it back. Because, like I said, there's all this transformation. Their developers need that environment today. So you have to provide that. That's one use case. We provide an on-prem development and agile development environment. Best in class. Your developers are super happy. Your business is going to do well. The other thing I see, and I see this a lot in retail, but also in hospitality at some of these very kind of brick and mortar enterprises is the edge. They need a solution at their edge location. Thousands, these are thousands of branch locations. We've even got this use case with Chick-fil-A, right? And a lot of times this is... A lot of different use cases, but a lot of time the common thing is that they're collecting data. They're doing some processing at that site and then they're doing further processing in the Cloud. And so it's a connected, but an intimately, it's not always connected.... Intimately connected environment. So that's the second big use case. Edge retail or just edge. There's so many... For me, it's one of the most exciting. There's so many examples of that. >> Awesome. >> Aparna, first of all, just so many goodness I want to say thank you to Google because everything from I heard at the show Google wasn't giving out swag because it actually went to charitable givings instead of spending that money. One of the things we always look is open-source is, how much more value is being created for the eco-system not just the vendor that started it. And it is a really tough balance. We've seen it fail many times. Do you step too far back? And how much do you engage? How do you strike that bound? For the last five to 10 years, we've been saying, "Where is the independent place where we can have that "conversation about cloud?" We think found it at this show. I mean we've been here for three years now. Google Cloud, phenomenal event. Our teams loves to be there, but this feels like overnight has turned into oh wait, here's the show we were looking at to have that conversation. To have that commons where we can come together and there's so many diversity of people, diversity of projects in here. Many which have very disconnected from original Kubernetes and everything, so. It's been fascinating to watch and have to imagine your team is... When you watch that first piece go and everything that's built around it. It's got to be amazing. >> My team loves this event. We have literally I think 300 people here. And a lot of them are core maintainers. Everybody is a contributor, but they are core maintainers of the Kubernetes project. The Istio project. The Knative project. And I think the best thing here is just interacting with our users. Because this is a developer, this is a developer conference, primarily. There's a lot of businesses here. >> Yeah >> With their kind of director level executives. But primarily it's an action-oriented hands-on audience. And you just... These customer meetings that I have, we review their architecture and we're like... It's an engineer to engineer conversation. >> Yep. >> And so how can we make that better? And sometimes they're contributing back and it makes the whole project better. >> Yeah. The thing, too, is it's an engineering, it's a developer conference, true. But what's interesting about that evolution as it modernizes, those end users are developers. >> That's right. >> And so the end user aspect of this show. >> That's right. >> Is the developer piece. >> That's right. >> It never used to be like that. Used to be COMDEX or some big event. >> Yeah. >> And then people just selling their stuff. >> Yeah. >> Doing business. The end user participation... >> Yes. >> Is not a consumption conversation, it's a contribution. >> Right. And end users are all over the spectrum of sort of really, really hands-on. Very, very smart to just give me something that works and I respect all of that, right? And we were actually very far here in terms of GKE. Giving you something that you really don't need to get in, that's fully managed, right? But then on the other hand we had Uber on stage earlier today in their keynote talking about how they've built all of this advanced capability on GKE. And that's a power user. That's using all their capabilities. Like custom additions and an operator. And it's just really gratifying I think for us to work with them and for us to see the user base as well as the community. So the ecosystem. Google. I thinks it's very important for us to have and create economic opportunity for our partners. And you'll see that with GKE on-prem. We're partnering heavily on that one. And you'll see that also in our marketplace. Our Kubernetes marketplace. So many of the companies that have come out of this ecosystem are now part of selling through Google Cloud. >> Aparna, thank you for your time. I know you've had to move some things around to come here. Great to have you on. I love your leadership at Google, it's phenominal. You've got the enterprise chops building out heavily over there. Congratulations. And for more CUBE interviews check out theCUBE dot net. You can check out Aparna's other good news. Of course search her name on Forbes. I wrote a story about her featuring her. Talking about her background and her passion. Always great to have her on theCUBE and get some commentary from Google. Of course, theCUBE is breaking down live coverage. Been there from the beginning of KubeCon and now CloudNativeCon, the Linux Foundation. Bringing you all the analysis and insight. Be back with more coverage after this short break. [Techno Music]

(spirited orchestral music) >> Hello and I'm John Furrier, cohost of theCUBE, founder of SiliconANGLE Media. I'm here at Palo Alto studios for CUBE Conversation as a preview for upcoming, the CNCF-sponsored KubeCon event coming up in Shanghai and in Seattle. I'm here with Janet Kuo, who is a software engineer at Google and recently named the co-chair of KubeCon, the main event around Kubernetes, multi-cloud, all the things happening in cloud-native. Janet, thanks for joining me today. >> Thanks for having me. So you were recently named co-chair, Kelsey was previously the co-chair and he always had those good demos but the program has been changing a lot and you're the new co-chair, what's it like? What's happening? What's the focus this year? What's the content going to look like? Tell us what's happening >> So we get a lot of overwhelming number of submissions, much more than last year, and I see a lot of interesting case studies and also I see that because Kubernetes is actually help you extract the infrastructure away and it runs anywhere so I see a lot of people are actually deploying it everywhere, multi-cloud, hybrid, and even in Edge. For example, I see Chick-Fil-A, they are going to talk about how they deploy Kubernetes in their Edge restaurants and the store owners, they are not tech expert, as you can expect. >> Yeah, I mean that's the edge of the network, a Chick-Fil-A, and you know, great retail example. We run a lot of Chick-Fil-A certainly out here in California it's like In-N-Out Burger, they go hand in hand. But this is a good use case of Edge and this is real world, so Kubernetes has certainly grown up. We know from the growth of KubeCon, the event itself has gotten to be pretty massive, the number of people involved has been great, how has Kubernetes grown up? Because we're seeing the conversation move from we love containers, Kubernetes is great for orchestrating everything, but now people are starting to really start really cranking it up a notch, is that the trend that you're seeing as well, and is that some of the content you'll be focused on? >> So I see, I took a lot at the Google trend for search for Kubernetes and it's still going way up since the beginning and also I look at a recent CNCF survey and I realize that about 40% of people who'll respond to their survey and they work in a enterprise and they said they run Kubernetes in production so that's a huge number. >> That's awesome. Well, now that you're the new co-chair, tell us a little bit about yourself, how, what's your background, how did you get there? >> I started working at Google in 2015 and that's before Kubernetes 1.0 was released and before CNCF and before the first KubeCon and when I joined Google, it's Kubernetes is a way, very new concept and not like it's fixed and it's already adopted by everyone so we work very hard to get the ease of use and get more people adoption and we get a lot of feedback from people and then Kubernetes is getting more and more popular, so after that I decided that I want to submit my first ever conference talk to KubeCon and I got selected and then I start to feel like I enjoy this and I did, and other CNCF hosted events, for example, a panel in San Francisco and I think that might be how I was selected. >> What was your first talk about, that you talked about? >> So I talk about running workloads in Kubernetes and I did an overview of the workloads API because I am the developer of that workloads API. >> So that's also, you got hooked on Kubernetes like everybody else, it's like the Kubernetes drug. So how did you get involved in open source? Were you always developing with open source? How did you get involved in the open source community? >> So Kubernetes is actually my first open source project and before that, I had a phone call with Tim Hawkins, he's the principal engineer at Google and he sold me the idea of Kubernetes and we need to be open and let people choose the best technology for them and he sold me the idea and I think Kubernetes is the future and also I want to work on open source but I just didn't have the chance to work on it yet. >> So we had a good fun time in Copenhagen for the last KubeCon, and we, theCUBE, has been at all the KubeCons as you know. We love this community, we think it's really special, not only because we've been there from the beginning, but we've gotten to see the people involved and the people have been very close-knit but yet so open and inclusive, we're seeing a lot of input, and then at the same time, so that's always great, open source, inclusive, and fun, but then the companies are coming in in waves, a massive amount of waves of commercial vendors jumping in, and I think this foundation's done a great job of balancing being a good upstream and good project but that dynamic is very interesting. It's probably the fastest open source kind of commercial, yet good vibes, commercial open source, how does that change or affect you guys as you pick and look at the data, 'cause you get surveys, you see what people want, vendors, users, industry participants, developers, what is the data telling you? What's all this data coming from the different KubeCons and how is that changing the selections and what's the trend I guess, what's the trends coming from the community? >> So from selecting talks, because we want to focus on make Kubernetes, make KubeCon, still community-focused conference so when we pick talks, we pick the ones that not just doing vendor pitch or sales pitch but we pick the ones that we think the community is going to benefit from and especially when they are talking about a solution that others could adopt or is it open source or not, then that affect our choice and then we also see a lot of people start customizing Kubernetes for their own needs and a lot of people are starting using Kubernetes API to managing resources outside of Kubernetes and that's a very interesting trend because with that, you can have Kubernetes to manage everything your infrastructure, lot of things running on Kubernetes. >> So what are some of those examples that are outside Kubernetes? So for example, you can use, so Kubernetes has a concept called custom resource that you can register a custom API in Kubernetes and so you can use that, you can register an API and you can implement a controller to manage anything you want, for example, different cloud resources or VMs, I even saw people use Kubernetes API to manage robots. >> Wow, so this is real world, so you mentioned you were working workload API at Google, the big trend that we're seeing on theCUBE and that crosses all the different events, not just cloud-native, is workload management, managing workloads and workloads are changing and it's very dynamic, it's not a static world anymore. So managing workloads to the infrastructure is where we see this nice activity happening from containers, Kubernetes, to service meshes, so there's a lot of activity going on there and some of the stuff is straightforward, I won't say straightforward, but containers and Kubernetes is easy to work with but services meshes are difficult. Istio, for instance, Kubeflow or Hot Projects, there's a real focus of stateless has been there, but stateful is hard, is there going to be talks about stateful applications, are you guys looking at some of the Istio, is service mesh going to be a focus this year? >> Yeah, we still see a lot of submissions from service meshes and so you can use service mesh to manage your service easily and secure them easily and we also see a lot of talks for stateful workloads, for example, how you customize something that manage your stateful workloads or what that best practice is and there is a pattern that's popular in the community which is called operator and the concept is that you write a controller, use the custom API that I just mentioned, and you just embed the knowledge of a human operator into that controller and let the controller do the automation for you. >> So it's putting intelligence, like an operator, into the software and letting that ride? >> Yeah and it will do all the work for you and you only need to write it once. >> And automation's a big trend, so if you could stack or rank the top three trends that we expect to see at KubeCon this year, what would they be? >> In the top three, I would say customize and multi-cloud and then service mesh or serverless they're both pretty popular, yeah. >> Is storageless coming? So if we have serverless, will there be storageless (laughs) I made that up, I tweeted that the other day, if there's servers, there's no servers, there's going to be no storage. I mean, service and storage go together so again, this is where the fun action is, the infrastructure is being programmable. And I think one of the things I like about what KubeCon has done is they've really enabled developers to be more efficient with DevOps, the DevOps trend, which is the cloud-native trend. The question I want to ask you is specifically kind of a Google question because I think this is important and Google cloud, I really love the trend of how application developers are being modernized, that's so cool, I love that, but the SRE concept that Google pioneered is becoming more of a trend as more of an operator role, not in the sense of what we just talked about but like an SRE, businesses are starting to look at that kind of scale out infrastructure where there's a need for kind of like an SRE, does that come up at KubeCon at all or is that too operator-oriented? Is that on the agenda? Does that come up in the KubeCon selection criteria, the notion of having operators or SRE-like roles? >> So we have a track called operations, so some of the operator, human operator, talks are submitting through that, to that topic, but we didn't see... >> Might be too early. >> Yeah, too early. >> It might be a little bit too early, that's what I think, alright and then since I brought up some of the tracks, we're always interested in knowing about startups 'cause there seems to be a lot of startup activity, doing a lot of AI stuff or applications, AI ops, and some new things going on, is there a startup activity involved that you're seeing, is there features of startups at all, do you guys look at that, is there going to be an emphasis of emerging companies and startups involved or is it mostly coming from the community? >> We definitely see a lot of startups and something in talks and also you just mentioned mission learning, we also see several talks on and about mission learning and AI submitting to both the Shanghai event and Seattle event. So projects like Kubeflow and Spark, that's being used a lot and we still, we see a lot of submissions from those. >> So those are the popular ones? >> Yeah, the popular ones and those are from Shanghai, I saw some AI submissions and I'm excited about those. >> Okay, so now back to the popular question, everyone wants to know where the popular parties are, what's the popular projects if you had to, in terms of contributors, activity, do you guys have like a rating like here's the most popular project? Do you guys look at just number of contributors? How do you rank the popularity of the projects? >> Or how would you rank them? >> We didn't actually look at the popularity of the projects because are you talking about CNCF projects or any projects? >> CNCF and KubeCon, let me ask the question differently... If I go to Shanghai or Seattle, what's going on? What do I engage, what should I pay attention to, what can I expect if I'm a user and I come to the event, what's going to happen at Shanghai and Seattle? What's the format? >> We separate all the talks in tracks so you can look up the track that you are interested in, for example, do you want to know all the case studies, then you can go to case studies and if you're interested in observability then you go to the observability track and they'll be a lot of different projects, they are presenting their own solutions and you can go and figure out which one fits you the best. >> And so multi-cloud's high, I'll ask you a multi-cloud question 'cause one of the things that we're tracking is what is multi-cloud and how is that different from hybrid? How would you describe that 'cause there are people that talk about hybrid cloud all the time but multi-cloud seems to have different definitions. Is there a different definition to hybrid cloud versus multi-cloud? >> So I think hybrid includes things that's not cloud, for example, your on-prem versus you have your on-premise solutions and you also use some cloud solutions and that's hybrid... >> And multi-cloud is multiple clouds so workloads on different clouds or sharing workloads across clouds? >> Workloads on different clouds. >> Yeah, so Office 365, that's Azure, a TensorFlow on Google and something, okay. I always want to know, comparing running workloads between clouds, that would be the ideal scenario. Here's the tough question for you, put you on the spot here, what is your favorite open source project in the CNCF and favorite track at KubeCon? >> My favorite project is of course Kubernetes and my favorite track would be case studies because I care a lot about user experience and I love to hear user stories. So for Seattle we picked a lot of user stories that we think are interesting and we also pick some keynote speakers that are going to talk about their large-scale usage of Kubernetes and that's very exciting for me, I can't wait to hear their story. >> Yeah, we love the end user stories too, 'cause it really puts the real world scenario around it. Okay, final question for you Janet, I wanted to ask you about diversity at KubeCon, what's going on and what can you share around that program? >> Yeah, we care about diversity a lot. We look at that when we select talks to accept and also we have a diversity scholarship that allows people to apply for a scholarship, we're going to cover the ticket to conference and also the travel to conference and also we have a diversity luncheon on December 12 and that will be sponsored by both Google and Heptio. >> So December 12 in Seattle? And that was a great, by the way, you did a great job last year, the program with scholarship got I think a standing ovation, so that's awesome. Thanks for doing that. >> Thank you, thanks. For the folks watching that might not be really deep on Kubernetes, in your opinion, why is Kubernetes so important and why should IT leaders, developers, and people in mainstream tech who are now new to Kubernetes and seeing the trends, why should they pay attention to Kubernetes, what's the relevance, what's the impact, why should they pay attention to Kubernetes? >> Because Kubernetes allows you to easily adopt cloud, because it's extract every infrastructure the infrastructure level away and allows you to easily run your infrastructure anywhere and most importantly, because a lot of people on different cloud and different stack of development, for example, CICD service mesh, they put a lot energy to integrate with Kubernetes so if you have Kubernetes you have everything. >> You have Kubernetes, you have everything. We love the work you're doing, thanks for co-chairing the KubeCon event, we love going there, CNCF's been very successful, been a great relationship, we love working with them, obviously it's a content-rich environment and I think everyone who is interested in cloud-native should go to the CNCF, there's a lot of sponsors, and more and more logos come on every day, so you guys are doing a good job. Thanks for doing that, appreciate it. Maybe we'll do two cubes this year. Janet Kuo, who is a software engineer at Google is joining me here at theCUBE. She's also the co-chair for KubeCon, the event put on by the CNCF and the industry around cloud-native and all things Kubernetes, multi-cloud, and really applications' workloads for a cloud environment. I'm John Furrier here in theCUBE studios in Palo Alto, thanks for watching. (spirited orchestral music)

>> Announcer: Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE, covering ServiceNow Knowledge 2018. Brought to you by ServiceNow. >> Hello everyone and welcome back to theCube's live coverage of ServiceNow Knowledge 18 here in Las Vegas. I'm your host Rebacca Knight along with my co-host Dave Vellante, and we are theCube. We are the leader in live tech coverage. We're joined by Sean Caron. He is the principal architect of Linium, at Linium. Thanks so much for coming on theCube again, you're welcome back. >> My second time, and thank you very much for the opportunity. I've really been looking forward to it all week. >> Awesome, Good to have you back. >> We love to hear that. So tell us about Linium and what you do as principal architect. >> Sure, so we are a gold services and sales partner of ServiceNow. Been in the ServiceNow space for about nine years total. And we specialize in helping organizations do digital transformations. So they want to take the platform and really get maximum value from that and that's both a technology discussion, but it's also a organizational change discussion, and you know can be a process discussion. All those kind of things are things that we help our customers with. >> We've been talking a lot about the technology but the organizational change is really what fascinates me. Can you tell, can you just talk about a lot of the organizational change challenges that customers are facing, and they come to you. >> You've got it right. So we've been in this business for 18 years. We started out as a Peregrine partner and also HP, when HP acquired Peregrine, and we noticed that we would get specs from customers and we would nail it. It would be a perfect technical delivery and then six months later when you talk to the customer, they weren't using the product. They didn't get any value from the investment that they made. So we started to engineer a process and we do that around, you know we look at the structure. Where is this project going to land? What's the structure around it? Who supports it? What's your culture? Do you have a culture of dedication to accuracy or customer service? If you don't have those kind of things, we can help build those in your organization. And of course that also gets to helping you find talent, right. So if you need the right people, we can help with that process. Helping you define business best practice process for your organization. Those are all things we work with customers every day and frankly we don't do technology projects. We only do a project where we know when we deliver the technology that that structure will be there to catch it and get value from it. >> So you were recently acquired by Ness Digital Engineering, >> Correct >> Which is really an interesting name for a company. Tell us more about the motivation for that acquisition and how things have changed, and what the future looks like. >> So for the first 17 years of our business we were a privately held company and we grew organically, and we did a great job at that. I mean we became several hundred employees across the U.S. and a couple in AMIA, and a couple in Canada. But to really take the next step right, we saw, we had a vision of what we wanted to do, to take that next step was going to require an equity investment of some type. So we started probably about this time last year, talking to organizations. Ness was one of the first ones that we met and it became immediately apparent that they were a great fit for us. So they have about, well with us about 4,000 people across the world. They're not a billion dollar company right. So their culture is very similar to our culture. They do digital engineering projects, industrial scale, you know hard core grade digital engineering projects, and they tend to focus on platforms that are front of the business, so customer touching. They own the platform under Standard & Poor's right, so they built that. So Standard Poor's ratings, all that information flows in, they do the ratings based on that. That's something they built. PayPal, they do a lot of work in the payments industry. But they didn't really do much on the backend right. The operations that keep all the lights on and obviously that's a great fit for Linium, where we would come in with the ServiceNow platform and help them with that process. So that really worked out well. It was a great fit for us. >> So how do you guys compete? What's your difference relative to, you've been here a while in this ecosystem. It's started to get crowded. How do you, what's your secret sauce? How do you guys compete? >> So our goal is always to try and stay 12 months ahead of where ServiceNow is going. In the past couple of years, that really has been around user experience. Really designing experiences with the platform that are intuitive, that don't require a lot of training, that allow people to approach the platform and get value from it very quickly. Whether that's end users, or our customer's customers. Those kind of things, really, and that's in our DNA. That's a big part of what we do is design these experiences and do them in a way that really help our customers get value. I would say, you know looking forward, so the buzzword that we've heard around here this week is DevOps right, and we see, and one of the things that Ness does very well is DevOps engineering. I think next year will be the knowledge of DevOps. It will be what everybody's talkin' about. ServiceNow will have a lot more throw-weight in that space. So really that's where we're going. We're helping people get that continuous integration, continuous deployment process using ServiceNow as a foundation. >> CJ Desai laid out the roadmap in more detail than I had seen publicly anyway, and we were talking to him and he said, "Look the motivation really came from the ecosystem." You know obviously the customers as well, but the ecosystem as well, wanted better visibility on what was coming, because you guys have to plan for that. You're tryin' to fill white space. You're tryin' to fill a vacuum. So I wondered if you could talk about that. It's a two-edged coin though right? I mean, but having that visibility has to be a godsend. >> Right and we found that when we are some number of months ahead of ServiceNow, we work very well with them. We, you know obviously, like any large ServiceNow partner, we're very plugged in to where they're going. Their roadmap sets our direction and the kind of things that we can do. But it enables conversations, especially DevOps, and user experience too, enabled conversations at new levels within the organization and that's a big differentiator for us. >> But so, what I'm trying to understand is you guys have to make a call on where to put your investments and your resources, and you don't want to, you've said a couple of times, you're ahead of ServiceNow by, let's say N months, six months, 12 months, 9 months, whatever it is. You don't want to develop something and put too much into something that they're just going to replace in a few months. >> Right. >> Dave: So how do you keep that innovation engine going on your end? >> That right, so it takes a lot of research. We have a person whose dedicated job at our organization is Chief Innovation Officer. She spends her entire day talking to customers, hearing what buzzwords are in the industry, looking and talking to ServiceNow, looking at where they're going. So how can we be positioned when ServiceNow gets there 'cause to deliver services, that's not an instant on right. If the technology shows up tomorrow in the next release, to be able to deliver services for that, you have to start well in advance to actually be able to do that, to understand the process, and the structure, and what's required. >> I see, okay so by being ahead of ServiceNow, what you mean is you're going to develop capabilities that plug in to their release when it hits. >> So that we can deliver to what they have, >> Not things that are duplicative, but things that are, add value when it hits. >> Yeah, I mean ServiceNow comes out with, let's say automated testing. That's something they want to really, they want to get into the automated testing market. That's a discipline. You can't be instant on with that and if you want to have credibility with customers, you have to have trained people. You've got to be six months ahead to be able to step into that world and get value from the platform. >> So take the DevOps example that we heard Pat Casey talk about yesterday. So you guys are preparing for that now obviously. >> Yes. >> And how will you go about it? How will that change your customers world? If can take us through an example. >> So obviously DevOps is, you know it's the big accelerator. It's the idea of we're going to do what we've always done and we're going to do it in timeframes that are minutes or hours, as opposed to weeks, or months, or even years right, so it's a big ramp up. So understanding how to put that in play is a big deal. If you're a startup, alright so one of the themes of DevOps is the two pizza team right. You should never have teams bigger than you can feed with a couple of pizzas. If you're a startup and you already got a two pizza team it's easy to do DevOps. You build it into your culture and away you go. But our customers, you know many of our customers, one we were talkin' about here, talking to here at the show, 130 year old firm and they want to do DevOps. So what's that on-ramp? How do you figure that out? One of our new colleagues from Ness, who has been in the DevOps world for a while says, "You know, it's all about unlearning stuff." Because in order to move into this world, you got to unlearn that old world. >> Well right, it is a mindset. >> It is, it's a culture. >> So how, and one that will be very tricky for a 130 year old firm that maybe doesn't order pizzas that often (chuckling) for it's team. So how do you do that? I mean that's a challenge. >> We're working diligently on having a roadmap to onboard DevOps into existing organizations. The secret really tends to be, start with a NET new project and introduce DevOps into those kind of projects. Build one, build two, build three now you've got a culture of DevOps and you can start then to do some of the unlearning and the retrofitting right. But it's very difficult. You can't really take an existing projects and transform how they do their work. Which is what DevOps is all about. >> No, but in a lot of the companies that I've talked to that have, you know hundred plus year old companies that want to do DevOps right. A lot of times, and I wonder if this has been your experience, it's the Ops guys learning Dev, as opposed to the Dev guys learning Ops. I mean the Dev guys like, "Yeah, yeah we can do infrastructure as code, that's fine", but then you've got all these Ops guys runnin' around. So it's a urgency to retrain the Ops guys, who are eager to learn, most of 'em. The ones that aren't probably in trouble. >> Will do something else. >> So I often joke about OpsDev versus DevOps. What's your experience? >> So I think the big difference is Ops guys are trained from the day they take that job to, you know shun failure right. Failure of a system is a big problem. In DevOps it's going to happen. Not only is it going to happen but the best DevOps practitioners create failure. >> Break stuff (laughing) >> Yeah, you know Netflix kind of has this famous program called Chaos Monkey, when it runs running, turn stuff off right, and how do you respond to that. And that's a big leap culturally and structurally for the Ops guys to get over that. You know the idea is we break stuff, but we learn from that, and not only do I learn from that, but I spread that knowledge across the organization. And that's where ServiceNow steps in right, because they know when things are broken, 'cause they're tied to monitoring, and they got this great knowledge capability to hook up the information we learn from how that broke. So what better testing could we have done so that we could have avoided that break? Or if it's a enforced break, what could we have learned about how to respond to that more quickly? You know the classic example is when AWS lost their east availability center and Netflix kept tickin' because they had lost their east availability center through Chaos Monkey a half a dozen times. >> Right >> It was old hat, and everybody else kind of went dark right. So that idea, and enabling that with the ServiceNow platform is a great opportunity. We really see ServiceNow as the context, the engine with all the knowledge about when things happen, how to fix them, and how to record the knowledge that you learn. >> Give us an example of a company, I mean you're talking about simple, streamlined, intuitive tech, no-training required, so give us some examples of some of the most creative uses. >> I'll give you a great example. So, we have a center in Atlanta. We have some folks in Atlanta. And of course if your in Atlanta, you love Chick-fil-a, and maybe if you're anywhere else you love Chick-fil-a. And they had an issue, which was they have franchisees, and their franchises are different from McDonald's, where you might have one franchisee at McDonald's that owns 200 restaurants. They have a lot of power, market power, and they don't share information with any other franchisee, 'cause that's differentiating for them. Chick-fil-a doesn't do that. The maximum number of restaurants you can own as a Chick-fil-a franchisee I believe is three. It's a number like that. So their franchisees are incented to talk to each other and share information. "Hey I found a better way to clean the ice cream machine", or something like that or to fix a problem. So they were looking to build a portal that they could use to both answer questions from the organization to the franchisees, but allow the franchisees to talk to each other. That kind of a thing has to be zero training right, because the people who are on that might be store managers, but it could be, you know the teenager who runs the point of sale terminal and is havin' a problem with that, so it's really got to be intuitive. So we spent a lot of time with them. We actually, it was we brought one of our designers, so we have UI, UX designers, experience designers, and we were in the sales meeting, and we're having a discussion about what they need, and he's kind of heads down typin' on his computer. And they're kind of lookin' at him like, what's up with this guy right, he's not payin' attention. >> He's designing the interface. >> These guys pay attention to everything. He's lookin' at the logo as we're walkin' in, the colors that are on the wall, the way they talk about themselves. So about an hour into the meeting we got a pause and he just kind of picks his head up and goes, "You mean like this?" And turned his computer around and he had a prototype that he built in the meeting of this really easy to use process. >> Very cool. >> Sean: So that was our intro to Chick-fil-a. >> Your sales guy must'a hated that. (hosts laughing) >> No, no, it was, I'll tell you what, so it was competitive, we have multiple competitors, who were going for that business, when he turned that computer around, the sale was done. >> Dave: Boom. >> We were done, right. They looked at that and said, This is, you know it's not perfect clearly, but this is what we need. >> This is the kind of company we want to work with. >> Exactly, well and that, you know part of that is there are partners in the ecosystem who come in and say, "We can do anything. "Tell us what you want." We are much more consultative and we'll come in and be prescriptive and say this is what you should do, and it's a differentiator for us. It's something we do differently. >> Well Sean that's a great note to end on. Thanks so much for coming on theCUBE again. >> It's been great, I really enjoyed my time. >> We'll look forward to having you back at Knowledge 19. >> Terrific, I will certainly be here. >> Great, I'm Rebecca Knight for Dave Vellante. We will have more of theCUBE's live coverage of ServiceNow Knowledge 18 in just a little bit. (electronic music)