>>Well, good day. And thank you for joining us here on the cube, John Walls here, uh, bringing you to this conversation as part of the AWS startup showcase. And we're joined by Justin bough, who is the SVP of product for amplitude and Justin. Good to see you today. How are you? >>I'm doing great. Thank you for having me, John. >>No pleasure. Looking forward to it. Um, you know, personalization that everybody's talking about these days and then how do we better personalize our, our digital presence, our digital products, um, you know, how do we get much more acutely aware of the end user at the end of the day and grow? I know that's what Amplitude's all about. So maybe if you just give us a 30,000 foot, um, perspective on that, about your thoughts about personalization today and how amplitude tries to affect >>For sure. Yeah. So I think first off personalization matters because it actually works. I think we live in a world where, as you know, we're drowning in content and distraction, uh, and it's been proven that customers respond better to digital experiences that are more personalized, that are more relevant for them. And frankly just save them time. Um, and the nice thing about this is not only the customers benefit, but companies do too. Uh, we actually see that a big impact on a company's bottom line, if they're able to, uh, deliver a more relevant customer experience to them because that leads to better engagement, better return, higher loyalty and lifetime value, uh, for those customers. >>So, um, well, let's, let's just go right to an example then, uh, I know you worked with a lot of different people, um, but there's anybody in particular that stands out, um, maybe give us an idea of a case study here about what practices you put into place, the kind of evaluations that you do, and ultimately the service that you're providing that allows them to increase sales and, and get a little more stickiness with them. >>Yeah, that's great. That's great. So I think one, uh, company customer of ours we're working with right now on this is actually Chick-fil-A. Uh, so people probably familiar with Chick-fil-A. Their mission is to be the most customer caring company in the world, uh, which I love in personalization is critical to that strategy because it helps them create a more relevant and seamless experience for their customers. Um, and the experience itself, and the app is actually pretty simple, which is the magic of personalization. So you open the Chick-fil-A app, uh, you see a list of menu items and those items are relevant to you based on your previous behavior. Um, after you order your entree, you're then offered a list of personalized sides. And then after that Alyssa personalized drinks, um, and the great thing is that as new items, uh, get introduced to the menu by Chick-fil-A you see the ones that are most relevant to you based on predicted affinity and all of the machine learning that we're doing in the background. And so really now Chick-fil-A is actually they're able to deliver a customized menu for everyone that automatically updates based on your behavior and your preferences. Um, and I think the real beauty of this is that they're able to configure all of this by a marketer through a simple UI. This did not require an army of data scientists or engineers. Uh, they're able to use the amplitude platform, uh, to build out this entire experience for their customers. >>Right. Cause I mean, it seems like there'd be an enormous amount of analytics that you have to apply here, right. Um, because you got all this structured and unstructured data, uh, you know, it's, it's all over the place, right. And a lot of times people don't even know what they have on hand. Um, and so you gotta, you gotta help them sift through all this. Right. So let's talk about that process a little bit for somebody who's watching and thinking about, well, that's all sounds well and good, but, but how do you kind of automate this? How do you make it so that we don't have to invest a lot in a team dedicated solely to, you know, sipping through our data and making it valuable for us? >>Yeah. I mean, I think that's the beauty of, uh, of amplitude actually offering this in that that's actually our original first product product analytics. That's what we've done. Um, so we've actually made an out of the box system that can read from all your different data sources. Um, so whether those be your product sources, marketing channels, data that sits in your data warehouse, um, but it's not just piping that data. Uh, we then combine that into a unique identity, uh, profile for that customer, um, across all those different touch points, um, and also have out of the box data governance, um, so that you can make sure you maintain, uh, the quality of that data profile, uh, over time. And then that gets fed into, um, our, what we call our behavioral graph. It's our database, uh, that's actually built to both understand and predict future behavior. And so all of this happens effectively out of the box for our customer. They don't need to do any of this, uh, themselves. Uh, we're managing all this for them. And then what they experience is, uh, an analytics application. So they can analyze that user behavior understand kind of what the drivers of different things like engage in retention are, and then use that to actually personalize the product experience. >>And, and you mentioned machine learning, um, talk about that aspect of this. I mean, how much more capability you have now because of what I know can deliver and, and, um, in some ways it adds some complexity, um, but also obviously it delivers exponentially, I would think in benefit at the end of the day. >>Yeah, for sure. I mean, it's just not possible to do one to one personalization without machine learning. I think that's actually, when we talk about the benefits and the advantages of personalization, it's probably even worth taking a step back. Like there's a lot of different types of personalization. Um, I think when you want to do behavioral personalization where you truly getting to one-to-one experiences, you have to use machine learning. Now you compare that to maybe like demographic personalization, which is actually, I think when most companies talk about when they're doing personalization, they're actually doing demographic personalization. That's like, are you a male or female? Um, what's your, you live in a city or a suburb. Um, uh, but the reality is like that light segmentation, it's not really that effective. Like do all women who live in a city behave the same, obviously not. Uh, and so, uh, we want instead to use behavior because your past behavior is the best predictor of your future behavior. >>Um, and, uh, and you need machine learning to be able to actually come up with, for an individual. What is their likelihood propensity to actually engage on any piece of content of which think about for you think about Chick-fil-A, how many different items they have in a menu. Um, you can think about like, we work with, um, a content company that has millions of different articles and they want to figure out what's the right article to put in front of you. Like, that's just not possible to actually analyze that by hand, uh, nor actually work working straight that, uh, uh, in real time without actually leveraging machine learning. Um, and so that's the exciting thing that's happened with, uh, new advances in, uh, supervisor and supervised learning models that we can actually do those in generalizable ways, uh, for our customers, >>Wait, we've talked a lot about behavioral, so that's obviously metrics you've been tracked. Right. I saw something and I clicked on something and I acted on something or watch something. These are all very measurable activities. On the other hand, though, as you know, in the consumer space, a lot of it's emotion too, you know, I make decisions based on, on my feelings or my thoughts or whatever. Can you, can you do any kind of unpeeling of my motivation in this almost like empathetic, uh, investigation so that you have an idea of what social cues on emanating or sending off? So, Hey, yeah, we can, we can get John this way too. >>Yeah. So I think a lot of it is, I mean, we're talking a lot about the science of, uh, product development, uh, for sure. And how do you bring personalization leveraging data? There is then the art of actually understanding, like what are the emotional States that users are in and like this isn't to say that the ability to personalize the product means that you're not actually bringing the heart as well. Like you act, it actually is a, both about the art and the science coming together. Um, and so you still need to, like, you're still gonna talk to your customers. You're still going to understand, uh, them and kind of what their, uh, different need States are, but this is then taking what you have, which you've built as a great product, then how do you optimize that? So we call it an optimization system, um, and actually deliver, uh, the best experience, uh, based on that customer's behavior. >>So just to kind of flip this a little bit, then what are you doing? Amplitude? What are you doing that, um, that hasn't been done before? I couldn't, I didn't understand that a lot of people think personalization just hasn't has a great horizon, has a lot of great promise. Well, but we're not there yet. I mean, what haven't we delivered on yet that you think amplitude is improving on and refining this capability? >>Yeah. So I think there are a couple of things there as to why we haven't fully seen the promise of personalization deliver no way. And I would say we're really starting to see that chasm emerge, where there are some companies that, you know, you think of, um, you know, Netflix, like obviously Amazon and others, who've done, who've been really successful here, but they've done it through armies of people. Um, what hasn't happened is a self-serve way of doing this so that it does not require massive investments, uh, in technical resources. Um, and so what we've solved for three things, um, one we've already talked about it, but it's just so true. Like this actually in and of itself is not an ML problem. First, it's actually a trustworthy data problem. Do you actually have the behavioral data that you can trust? Can you actually capture that across the entire customer journey because you can't personalize a journey if you don't even know what your users are doing to begin with. >>So you have to start there at that foundational level. Um, and that is a big part of our secret sauce is that we've built a database specifically catered to helping you understand that journey of that customer across all the different platforms and channels that they do. That's not easy to actually unify behavior in that fashion and allow you to analyze that in real time. Um, so that's the first thing that we did, um, is build that, uh, that database. So that's number one. And that's just the foundation. You have to have that, like, I, I think so many companies fail because they think we can go hire ML engineers, but if you don't have the foundation, it's not going to work. Um, the second thing isn't necessarily technological. It's more cultural, but it is really critical. And I think our analytics applications helped, uh, helped a lot here, which is you gotta break down the silos between marketing product engineering and data science. >>You actually have, you have to have all of them working together, um, to really be able to fulfill the promise of personalization because you have to be aligned and what's the outcome we're trying to drive, but that's actually how I literally can walk you through like the, how the, how the actual product works. But the first starting point is what are we trying to accomplish? Like in the Chick-fil-A example, it is, we want people to buy more than one item. Okay. So that's your goal. Like you have to get alignment that that is the goal. Cause if everyone's arguing about different goals, it doesn't matter what ammo model, like the model needs to know what we're trying to actually focus in on. Uh, and so how do you bring people together? And you do that through shared understanding of data. You do that through, we call it a North star, like we're aligned in what is the North star that we're focused on. >>And can you measure that? And that's analytics is focused in on that. And then when you have both of those, you've got behavioral data, you understand the journey of a customer you're aligned in the goals and outcomes you care about. Then you can leverage machine learning to actually deliver that personalized experience. And the advances that we're making there are actually doing that in a generalizable fashion. And so that does not have to be custom built for every single use case. Um, and our models are now able that we can run a model basically, uh, every hour to update for a customer. Um, and that scales horizontally, >>Well, I know of Chick-fil-A certainly has a track record that, um, is an arguable, right? And, and, and you've had a lot to do with satisfying that appetite for success. So, uh, Justin, uh, congratulations to amplitude. It's been a real pleasure speaking with you and thanks for the time today. >>Of course. >>Excellent speaking with Justin Bauer, the senior vice president of product at amplitude, and you've been watching the AWS startup showcase here on the cube.

>> Host: From around the globe, it's theCUBE, with coverage of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 2020 virtual brought to you by Red Hat, the cloud native computing foundation and ecosystem partners. >> Hi everyone, I'm John Furrier with theCUBE. We are here covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 2020, November 17th to the 20th, a virtual event. Normally we're there in person, but again, 2020 has been a crazy year, we're not going to be able to be there in person, but we're here remotely. We have two great guests, the co-chairs of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Stephen Augustus senior, open source engineer VMware KubeCon CloudNativeCon chair and Constance Caramanolis principal software here at Splunk and you guys are co-chairs of KubeCon. Big responsibility, thank you for coming on. >> Thank you. Thank you for having us. >> Thank you for having us. >> Okay so we, the number one question every year is before it gets started is, how did you make the selections for the talks, what's the hottest thing going on, what's the focus for this KubeCon? >> Well, so actually we use a Ouija board to choose the talks. (laughing) No, I'm joking it doesn't happen that way. >> Yeah, yeah, it's pretty much all out of a hat, but seriously, we spent a lot of time with talks that showed, I guess diversity and integration in the community. So, what projects are starting to pick up steam? What projects are starting to integrate more deeply with other ones? So you'll see lots of commentary around, multi cluster items within cloud native technologies, as well as, lots of content on security, which I'm excited about. >> Yeah, and also things are like, there's a little bit like, kind of to your point about like things layered on, like we're starting to get to the point where people are talking about like hey, I deployed Kubernetes and Envoy and something else. And like, these are starting to be a lot more of these kind of joint talks there that actually even make it harder for us to place. Like, does it belong in networking? Does it belong in application development? Like there've been some really good challenges trying to figure out where things are slotted and what's right- >> You know one of the things I love about KubeCon besides being fun to go to while it's face to face is even with the virtual, it's still a great community. The talks are awesome, people are submitting talks. But you got the sixth year, I think it's a six year or fifth year. We've been there for all years. I think this is the sixth year for us, the maturation, the growth and of Kubernetes now it's pretty clear. This glue layer, is gluing things together the API is extending to service and more services. Can you guys comment on what you guys are seeing in terms of some of the practical projects and how they're playing out for developers? Because you're starting to see you know, more clusters you've got cloud you've got multi-cloud around the horizon. So you've got more of these conversations where you have more capabilities but the focus on the modern application building is the number one business focus. So, you know, the developers are trying to build out under the covers and say, how do I scale this? So, this seems to be the kind of a growth year and inflection point for that next level. It seems like next level. Steven, what's your thoughts and reactions to that? >> Yeah absolutely. So, as a former, I've been out a few cloud native companies at this point so more or less from Red Hat before heading over to VMware. And as a former field engineer and solutions architects at some of these places, we spent a lot of time thinking through what is the days, zero day one story, right? And it's very clear that as a community, we've gotten to the point where like that is officially the boring stuff, right? Seeing a lot of the features within projects like (indistinct) and Cluster API come to maturation. We start to focus a lot more on that developer story, right? And ultimately that's what we care about, right? Businesses are not necessarily looking for a new tool to play around with, right? There are business goals that are tied to the new technologies, right? So the velocity in which you deploy your applications, the feedback loop in terms of understanding, you know, what ties into your application, where things are going wrong and, you know, Constance can definitely speak to the, the observability layer for all of these cloud native applications that are out there. >> Constance, observability I hear is really hot right now, what's your take on it, I mean is observability everywhere? New startup comes out and you work at Splunk, they're the King King of observability, they started out with very small observation space now it's a full platform. You have to look at the observation space to get the data that's the internet. >> You do. >> That's semi application. What's hot in observability? Take us through your thoughts. >> I think what's also starting to like, so you're still like, there's some, I can think of like one talk right now, it's a little bit talking about like, you know, observability at scale in a sense of just like now we have these massive applications and saying we globally and to observe and monitor observe right now, I'm not going to use a tourism changeable. I know that's a total different debate the available topic, but for now, just keep it at that. But it's also now, I think one thing as observability space and maturing is we're not talking only about like, hey, I instrument my like application with metrics, logs, traces, or some other thing there. It's now being a little bit more critical about how, if I'm using all three of these are all different telemetries, like how to be smart about it. Like, okay, I'll need to use traces for some things and let me use logs for something else. And like kind of getting to reach a part of like, now that we have that data let's actually think about better ways to use that data. So we don't, you know, collect everything cause you can't collect everything as much as we want to. >> Well, I mean this is something that I want to get your both thoughts on because one of the conversations we're hearing from developers and we hear it from them on the business size everything is a service, that's like the ivory tower you know, the CXOs, everything is as a service and then it down into the developers in the engineering community and they're like, well, it's not that easy 'cause you got tools for every platform, right? And that's a problem because these siloed tools are tools that were built for a certain products. And then you've got the systems thinking you guys talk about this integration is a key area. So making everything is as a service, just isn't that easy, right? So the goal is to make it easy, right? So this is the systems conversation. How do you guys look at that from a KubeCon, CloudNativeCon because cloud native does enable a lot of, good things. It's horizontally scalable cloud from a resource standpoint, you've got programmability. You can look at it as a system but people are stuck with these tools for the platform. I mean, you have tools for this, tools for that and five different tools, how do you make observability work? How do you make security work? These are tough questions. What's your reaction to that? >> I think that a lot of it comes down to, from a building perspective and, you know, taking the builder perspective and then also taking the consumer perspective. For builders, and I actually spent some time with, at some developer heads in New York, we sat down for a dinner and kind of talked, talked through some of the problems in the space. And I think what it really comes down to is when we build tools we need to think about who we're building the tools for, right? There are multiple personas that you might look at in the cloud native space. And, you know, one might be the persona of that systems integrator, of the classic Opsy, DevOps SRE role, right? Then you've got someone who may be building tools on top of one of those Ops platforms, right? And then you've got the consumers that may be in your company maybe they're external, right? That's for their experience, they're really only interested in how do I ship my app, right? So whether we're talking about building out Kubernetes or whether we're talking about a server less platform, right? So sort of Alyssa and the cloud, right? You often hear the, it runs on, it's running on someone else's machine, right? You know, it's not really, so I think in that space you have to consider a developer experience, right? So I think one of the overarching themes that you'll see throughout this KubeCon is, how do we talk about the developer experience? Who are we building these tools for? How can we actually get outcomes that end users are looking for? Right, cause it's not, again, it's not about the tools it's about the outcomes for the respective businesses. >> Constance what's your reaction to this trend of tools. >> I think. >> Edge computing, 'cause you you don't want to have to build security for everything, single thing. I've got an edge device, I want to have that'd be software operated, right? It makes total sense. But making that happen is hard. >> Yeah, I think this is something that as a community like we're really, I guess like kind of how I use example like end user docs versus restaurants documentation. I think that we've been, done a really good job at creating these really powerful tools but like in terms of, we still need to simplify them for anyone who doesn't want to learn, like say Kubernetes or Envoy or open telemetry, like the back of their hand. And I think that's where we're starting to finally start to close that gap. And as I think also why KubeCon is getting a lot more popular is like now things are a little bit more accessible to those who don't have, you know, either don't have the bandwidth or it just it isn't in their interest to learn all these things in details. And so we're slowly going from those who want to be deep, deep experts into, yeah I kind of want to play around with it and make it more manageable. And, I do think we still have quite a bit of ways to go. Like I think, you know, what's been helpful like at least like our end user stories that we get and like the application development track, especially that one, like the case studies that there's no longer track but it is highlighted as like these talks and case studies. I think that shows it's kind of giving people more like, hey, these are stories of how I can take these tools and start making them more digestible in my own way. 'Cause going from like, oh, this feature does XYZ to, this is a whole story that you can do around it. It's been a little very gap, we're closing. >> Yeah, and I think one of the things about you kind of being shy there, I'll say, KubeCon, CloudNativeCon, CNCF in general has been very successful because of the end user focus I will say that. But also the ecosystem of the vendors that are there. So you have kind of the best of both worlds and they'll want to get better, right? So, but they al have to make money at the same time. So you have this balance, is open source, is what it is, it's out in the open. Can you guys comment on how the community is thriving and surviving? We're in a tough time with the pandemic. It's been a big challenge honestly, we're not in person we're remote. How is everything going with the community? Because it's such a great end user vendor community working together out in the open shipping code, trying to make things better. What's the state of the community? >> Yeah, so I would say that honestly, what it comes down to is that word community, we're all friends, right? There are people who, you know, as the, as we moved towards is kind of like cloud native consolidation of companies. A lot of us have worked together before, right? A lot of us are active in multiple communities and what comes out of that is really open and honest collaboration as a result. You know, even today there's a Twitter thread going, you know, I started talking about the Kubernetes release cadence, right? And if, and how it should change. Given 2020, we had an extended release cycle for 119, right? And questions became, what do we do? Like, do we continue with three releases a year? Do we try for, to do the switch back to four? Like, what does that look like? Right. And reaching out across the Kubernetes community across the CNCFC, the contributor strategy saying in CNCF and getting feedback from all of these people who depend on the products that we build day to day is huge. So I think what it comes down to really is, is open and honest collaboration. I think, you know, when you were strained I know that everyone has a lot going on in life right now. What's great about it is being forthcoming with that, right? We have all of these teams that are, that are built to support the people that are around them. So, if anything, I, you know, I'd love to see all of the collaboration and feedback coming from everyone who works on these projects day to day. >> Yeah. >> Constance what's your reaction? I mean when, I've talked of some developer friends of mine, they're like, hey, this is great, I can work virtually, I've been doing it for years anyway. So no big deal. It's not like the people who have to go to the office every day. So they're used to virtual format. The other comment was, I get more time to do some gaming too. Trying to make light out of the bad situation, but you know, it is serious. What's your reaction to the survival and the thriving continue thriving of the community? >> Yeah, I also want to eventually go back to cause you're making a comment about vendors and now this is my first time as vendor. I have interesting, I like, it's a really interesting perspective to come from, but let's talk about the community. I think like, you know, it's like one of the things that like I think actually has been one of the highlights of this year for me, for 2020, it like to be co-chair but it's also just to like be able to work with Stephen and Nancy and the rest of the CNCF community. And also like any attendees, like has actually even though this is a big year of change and it's, you know, it was a change that no one was planning. It has definitely been like really nice to just get like Kube, I guess would say as an example, the story like for KubeCon you, like I was surprised at how many people were engaged in the Slack channel and asking questions and like Priyanka has set up these happy hours and people are just joining and we're starting to talk and so it wasn't quite hallway track but we still had that connection. And there was definitely, there are people who are attending from all parts of the world. And I thought that was really nice. Like, we think CNCF has made it, like they have made the statement before that there will always be a virtual component to it to address the fact that, you know, our community we're so used to being in person, but that does, you know it does reduce accessibility to those who can't travel or for whatever reason they can't be there in person. So now it is becoming more open. And, I know, I mean kind of turning back a little bit a little bit derail, I'm a little bit derailing but to your point about like also like the vendors. And so this is my first time being a part of a vendor. And I think what's really interesting is like, there's this natural like, you know, tension between like, oh, some were like, oh, I don't want to do it from the vendors, or like, I only want things from end users. But I think the thing that I've kind of forget is that both of them are like active, you know, they're active in the community, both in either contributing or enabling others to be successful using CNCF projects. And so we all have, you know, valid points and perspectives on it really. You can maybe sometimes argue that sometimes being a vendor is almost a bonus because you get to talk to maybe more people who are trying to adopt the technology and you get to see trends. And then after as an end user, you could say like, hey, I have this really unique problem here and this is how I try to solve it and share that story with other people, so. >> Yeah, I mean, I think you're right. I mean, there's checks and balance I've observed over my years in open source you've seen certain things thrive certain ways. And I think that balance and, but having the mission and kind of a rules of engagement if always seen well, good, worked well for CNCF they embraced the vendors really well, but they're, I mean I will say paranoid cause that's my word. But like they're paranoid of the vendors I would be too, like, you know, only to get their fingers in the pie, but they're also contributing. So there's always been that checks and balance and that's, what's been magical I think about it is that they fostered the community, they fostered the engagement and they fostered that balance. And I think that's where the give and get comes in. And I think that's a healthy community and I just love to see and love to be involved with. So, it's super, super good approach. Now, putting back the vendor hat on, if I'm a vendor, I want a competitive advantage. So yeah, this brings us to the next gen conversation open source goes and going next gen, you're seeing a big focus on AI, you're seeing a big focus on, you know, edge computing which is going to be software operated, software defined, which cloud native will lead. I got to get your perspective on something. Steven said at the top was security. Every conversation for the past five months with Dave has been shift left. So, okay. Where are we going left? We're shifting left. This is about security. How do you build security in? This has been a big conversation. It's not easy problem. I know it's a top focus. I want to get your reactions Steve and we'll start with you then Constance I would like you to weigh in too. >> Yeah sure, so, security, security is already strict, right? And I think that people start to put the focus on security when it's a little too late, right? The move is always preventative as opposed to reactive, right? And security is an onion, right? So it's not enough to just think about security on one axis, right? It's, you know, how is this affecting, you know, how is this affecting my application, the systems that I build, the physical, you know, the physical restraints of the, you know, of the area, right? Infrastructure, the cloud providers that I'm running on, right? Are they a certain level of compliant, right? Especially when that comes up for federal customers, right? On the application side, right? You know, if you think of, you know, if you think of all the, the different ways that you can break an application that hurts security now with the cloud native space container security, right? Am I building a safe Docker files or build packs or what have you, however you package your application. And ultimately you have to, you know and then there's also the supply chain, right? Am I getting, how am I moving that stuff from some physical infrastructure or some cloud infrastructure into the hands of the developers, into the hands of the customers? How do I react to changes once those applications have actually been deployed? Right? So like all of these things to consider and when you look at that space, these are multiple teams, right? These are dozens and dozens of teams across, you know, multiple companies, right? You may not have, you may not have full control of your security story, right? So I think that, what, you know what you need to do is start the conversation internally about how we can build security at multiple layers, right? So some of the things that are kind of interesting to see pop up during this KubeCon and some of, you know, and some of the last ones, the continued work that's happening on OPA and Gatekeeper spiffy and Spire, right? And, you know, all of these, all these frameworks for authentication and authorization that are kind of cropping up, right? I think, you know, Spiffy and Spire really interesting story because, you know, the first thing that you think is I have these cloud native applications that I'm building and I also have these legacy applications, right? How can I build a bridge between the two? Right? And then you've also got things like, you know, service mesh, right? And you start to talk about service mesh and, you know, the security within applications that live inside a cluster or across cluster, right? And how you negotiate that. So tons of things to think about, and, you know, it's honestly going to it's honestly going to depend on where you are in your journey but I think that, you know, good security is only built by having the conversation and having the conversation across all teams and doing it before you get into trouble. >> Do it before you get in trouble have it baked in from the beginning, brush your teeth make sure you're all healthy. Constance your reaction, (laughing) your reaction. >> So I will say like, I am unfortunately one of those people that like security, well security is just not something that I guess going to say I find super exciting. And it mostly just because I, I really love observability and like service mesh and so I usually defer to the experts on that, but I do want to like, I guess plus when some of what Steven said, obviously using git hub, you know, terminology for plus and what you know, enhancing things like definitely started early and it, but I think, you know, start early, start a conversation. But I think we also need just be cognizant of like for any of the technologies, like if it's security say networking whatever, all of these things are behavior changes and just bucket more time than you think you're going to need. There's going to be so many roadblocks and especially when it comes like, especially when it comes to behavior changes. Like, if you're and behavior, but not like necessarily like a personal, but like, you know, technology behavior like you're used to sending things without MTLS, right? Or, you know, with our backs, things are going to fail and, you know, there's going to be that initial friction and so definitely trying to make this smooth as possible. >> Yeah, I mean, I think that's the focus I like to see more of which is having it be built in. So if you're really not into it, but you don't want to screw it up either so you want to be on top of it without doing it, right? That's the end game, right? That's what DevOps is about. So if you don't have programming infrastructure write code. So all these things, this is the trend this is the trend that we're seeing in cloud native. Can you guys share your thoughts this year on, on the most important stories that you think people should think about or lean into or at least look at for KubeCon? What are some of the things that attendees or people watching remotely or participating virtually or in the Slack channels, what should they pay attention to? >> So starting with, I think even with the last KubeCon and some of the products that have recently come out from certain vendors, we're starting to look a lot more at the, what is that conversion story for someone who is a classic CIS admin, right? Who may be learning all about cloud native technology for the first time, or how do we, you know, how do we welcome a new KubeCon attendee to the community? So I think one of the best things that we did was instantiate that's a one-on-one track, right? So with the one-on-one track, I think we got a bunch of great feedback. So we work to make sure that they were actually, we eliminated I believe we fully eliminated the lightning talks and work to include more one-on-one content as well as tutorials within this program. >> Constance, your reaction, Constance your reaction to thoughts on the most important story to pay attention to? >> I think it's more, right, cause, okay, I know this is like a common line that we say at KubeCon and like, you know, depends what group your on. But since so many more of our talks we're now talking about intersections between like, you know, using X and Y try to build Z, Zed. Oh my goodness I'm trying, I'm losing my Zeds. I think trying to like, you know looking for those talks that at least somewhat resonated like, hey, I've already talked to communities, let me see how I add Envoy. Like, trying to find those there because there's a lot more of that content now, right? Cause maybe you know, about like to even last KubeCon or like last KubeCon North America, a lot of the things were more focused on like one project, maybe a hint or you're just going to see more of these combinations. And so there are a lot more, there's a lot more of that content available for you to find. I'm doing two, three, maybe four, It's a lot of projects at once, adoptions and seeing how that works too. Oh yeah, one-on-one track has definitely been definitely like a great hit. I'm going to say, right? The first time it was launched and we got so many CFPs for one-on-one it was just amazing to see all these ways that people wanted to make KubeCon more accessible to everyone else who hasn't been a part of, you know. >> It's every year, it's every year the onboarding of new members of the community would be impressive. And having that tracker laddering or different ways to work as a community to help people along has been another thing I noticed you guys do really well on. There's a real camaraderie amongst the community. So a hat tip for you guys on that. Final question for you guys is more about the format. Obviously it's virtual this year the game is still the same. There's talks, there's people, there's hallways, but they're virtual, I guess you're virtually walking through Slack and discord or Twitter, whatever. What's the learnings from last event, as we're going into virtual, how does an attendee maximize their time, their engagement there's times to lean in and be present, attending a talk, you mentioned Slack Constance. What's some of the learnings that you guys have learned from virtual? And what can people think about and prepare for, for KubeCon virtual this year? >> Yeah, I think one way you start it. So, there's actually a resource, this came from our debrief for me, it was like there's a resource like, hey, let me help get the day off. And like, we even provided template to like provide to your, you know, direct to your managers. Say like can I please get this day off so I could focus on it? And I think that's one thing that and I think we'd all probably seen on Twitter and blogs is that even though it is virtual it is still a brain drain, well it's still, you know, you have to engage with a topic so set aside time. I would probably even say attend fewer talks, than you would normally do in person there is zoom fatigue, I guess it's been from on screen fatigue. So just give yourself a lot more space to consume the information and just debrief and also join the activities, right? Like ask questions in Slack. There's a lot of the virtual events like there's bingo there's even an escape room, which sounds like a lot of fun, all these different activities too that you can do with everyone. So like definitely enjoy that part, right? 'Cause you still get a little bit off until you just say like hey, you mentioned this project, let's chat offline. And then, you know, a few weeks later you may be on a four hour long Zoom meeting talking about some project. And so, yeah >> Yeah, I noticed the hang space kind of mindset of virtual was pretty cool. Be mindful to introduce yourself and either do a sidebar or jump on some back channel. I mean, there's plenty of tools, developers know what they are, so pretty good point I want to call that out. Good, good point Constance. Steven, your thoughts on learnings from the virtual format and then things this year people should pay attention to and jump in and use the site for. >> Yeah, so I would say if anything the previous attendees gave lots of thoughtful feedback about how to improve the overall program. One of my favorite parts of any conference and it's the part that I prioritize more than anything else in the conference even the talks, right? Is the hallway track, right? It's one of the few times, you know, especially with KubeCon and the various contributors across the cloud native space that's the, you know, the one time every quarter or so that I get an opportunity to see these people face to face, right? So, you know, we wanted to do our best to bring in experience that felt, you know, it's not the, you know, it's not the same as the physical hug, right? Or the, you know, or going out for, you know, going out for dinner after a long day. But we tried and we laughed through lots of crazy ideas that the event team, to see what they would come up with for me as a New York resident and having a conference that is any virtual but would have been in Boston, I thought it was important thinking about screen fatigue, as well as just the physicality of where people would have been at the time, is the start time of the conference, right? So as Constance was mentioning screen fatigue it's, I think with all of the virtual conferences going on, it's very hard to have that time during the day, right? So this KubeCon for folks on the East coast it starts basically at your lunchtime. So the idea is, hopefully you get some, you get some of your meetings in for the day, grab a bite to eat and then you sit down for lunch and you, and you dig into some KubeCon, so. >> Yeah, and you can have any lunch you want and then later of you will be able to eat lunch from the conference. That's awesome. The other thing I love about the, what you guys said is the hallway tracks. And I think one of the things I've noticed going to a lot of virtual events and doing them is, Constance you're right, it's mentally draining to lean into a talk because you're present, even though you're virtual. So taking time to get involved in the fun activities or just, you know, wandering Slack or doing a sidebar with the hallways is kind of a have some time off like the time to regroup and not be so, you know, leaned into a session, I find that to help on the fatigue side for sure. The other one is viewing parties. We popped into some, you know, Zooms together and we watched each other watch the session, right? So viewing parties has been one trick I've seen work well, other ones I've seen people toast beer at a certain time. The Germans obviously do at first, cause they're on the time zone, but you start to see these playful things. You know, people can share their kind of position where they are. So it's fun. We'll look forward to seeing that. Okay, final comments, Steven, Constance. What's the bumper sticker this year for KubeCon? >> Ooh, have we decided yet Constance? (laughing) >> Velvet jackets are required for entry. (laughing) I'll make word sense after you see a special message from us. (laughing) >> It's a lot of fashion on stage, on stage, right? >> All right we stumped the co-chairs. (laughing) We stumped the, well, I want to say thank you very much for coming on and sharing little color commentary on KubeCon around the program, some of the things when the virtual event too some of the talks, really appreciate it and we really appreciate what you do, the community does. It's been a hard year. We're not going to be there in person. We'll continue to ride the wave in to back to the normal. So thanks for doing what you doing and thank you for coming on. >> Thank you so much for having us. >> Yeah, thank you. >> Okay. This is theCUBE, virtual coverage of KubeCon CloudNativeCon virtual November 17th to the 20th. I'm John Furrier, your host for theCUBE. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: From the VMware campus in Palo Alto, California, it's the Cube, covering Women Transforming Technology. >> Hi, Lisa Martin with the Cube, on the ground at VMware in Palo Alto, at the third annual Women Transforming Technology event, we're excited to welcome to the Cube, Caroline Hubbard, an Analyst at LinkedIn, and the founder of ThreadBred, Caroline, nice to have you here. >> Thank you for having me. >> So you, as young as you are, you're a speaker at this event, you spoke in >> Caroline: I am. >> The Emerging Leaders Track, tell me the name of your session, and what >> Caroline: Yeah. >> Some of the key messages were that you delivered today. >> Definitely, my session was called, "Stand up, Stand Out, "How to Become and Advocate for Change in the Workplace," and my session detailed my experiences thus far, navigating corporate America, not only as a woman, but as a person of color, and some of the really eye opening experiences I've had, in terms of the toxic cultures that are rampant in our organizations across America, and through this experience, I learned really valuable lessons. And two of those lessons are that performance and how you're perceived can only take you so far in an organization; ultimately, if you're not in a place that values your identity, or values you for your differences, not just in spite of your differences, then your chances of success are going to be limited, and if you allow toxic cultures to eat away at your own perception of self, then you're going to be in even more dangerous positions. So I sort of talked about how I learned those lessons, and provided a framework for which we can all go back to our companies and bring awareness to issues that are affecting underrepresented people. >> How did you hear about Women Transforming Technology? >> Yeah, so since I've moved here, 10 months ago, I've just been taking the city by storm, networking, joining lots of women's groups, to just try to find women with similar experiences as me; I'm from the east coast, so I don't really have that many friends or a network out here, and that's what I wanted to build, so through one of the women's groups I'm associated with, I was speaking with a friend, who was like, "Well, you should check out this conference," so I did that; I went online, and I connected with one of the program leads here, and we were able to talk a little bit about my experience, and I was invited to speak. >> Fantastic. >> Yeah. >> And now you can say you've spoken at an event where Laila Ali spoke this morning >> Caroline: I know >> That's an honor (laughing) >> She was so inspiring, because you know, you look at a woman like Laila, who's >> Right. >> Who you think is just born with confidence, and courage, and she talked about how a lot of that is true, very innate, but there was times where she kind of has to recheck >> Caroline: Yeah. >> Kind of do a gut check, and say, "Alright, I feel like "I'm kind of nocked back a bit," >> Caroline: Mm-hmm. >> I loved her recommendations for you know, like the Boy Scouts, what, always be prepared, >> Caroline: Yeah. >> But the preparation is really key; have you found that to be something that helps you kind of harness your inner mojo, your inner confidence? >> Absolutely. >> Whether you're speaking at Watermark, or you're here. >> Yeah, absolutely, and I come from a performing arts background, and I spent a lot of time on stage, and I just found that throughout my life, being on stage energizes me, and being able to connect with people and be fully transparent is something that's really refreshing, but with that, comes a lot of preparation, and I've spent hours, actually, last month when I did a similar talk, my mother and I were up until five A.M. the night before a big speech, just working and making sure it was perfect, and deliver the right message. So I definitely agree, preparation is always key; it helps you feel confident, but like she said, there are times when preparation isn't enough, and you just feel a little bit unprepared or un-confident, and that's okay >> Yeah. >> What really matters is how you bounce back from those instances in which you don't feel as confident. >> I agree, I felt very validated with Laila Ali >> Caroline: Yes. >> Saying sometimes I don't always feel my best, so tell me a little bit, before we get into ThreadBred, I want to talk to you about a little bit about this program that you're in at LinkedIn, where you get to in finance, you get to work in different parts of the business >> Caroline: Right. >> Yeah, it's a really unique program, it's a two year long program, for people directly out of college, that gives you a lot of exposure across the company, so it's technically under the business operations organization, so your first year is split between rotations in sales operations and business operations, and then the second year, you can have more of an elective choice, where you can sort of dabble in product marketing or corporate developments, so it's a really unique experience in that it allows you to see multiple parts of the business, and currently, I'm on the consumer product growth team, which is responsible for getting people to use our app, and I also focus a little bit on our SEO strategy, so it's really opened me up to the world of tech, and how large scale enterprise companies work, which has been exhilarating. >> What have been your experiences, in terms of the diversity not just at LinkedIn >> Caroline: Right, right. >> But as you say, you've been in the valley now, for about 10 months. >> Yeah. >> What are some of the observations that you have made? >> Yeah, I think that a lot of the workforces, actual workforces are reflective of the actual diversity that's in the city, and if you look at the city, first of all, it's not very diverse, so it's kind of impossible for the organizations to have that same diversity, so it's been a challenge; I think that LinkedIn has done an incredible job, given the fact that there are not equal amounts of multiple different demographics, and I think LinkedIn is very conscious of the problem, and we're actively working to solve it, so I feel good about that, but I have noticed that in terms of gender, in terms of race, not everyone is represented on equal levels, and representation is so important, because for other people who are coming in future generations, you can't be what you can't see, so if there aren't people that look like you, you're going to be discouraged from pursuing an opportunity there, when that opportunity might be perfect for you. So I'm really empowered and passionate about trying to increase representation for all people in these organizations. >> It's refreshing to be at a conference like WT squared, because the accountability is so key, and what they announced this morning, with VMware investing $15 million into an innovation lab for women's leadership; the fact that they're together, expanding this stand in VMware >> Caroline: Mm-hmm. >> Relationship it's been over the last five years, but actively going to be looking at what are these barriers; the diversity barriers that women are facing, how do they identify optimal ways to eradicate those barriers? >> Mm-hmm. >> Because VMware knows, and the McKinsey report that was actually cited in the press release >> Caroline: Yeah. >> That they came out with this morning, companies that have more diversity at the executive level, are 21% more profitable. >> Caroline: Yeah. >> So they're understanding this is going to not just be benefiting our culture and diversity or our chief people officer HR function >> Absolutely. >> This is actually something that will benefit the entire company. >> Yeah. >> And what does this company deliver? Technology that other businesses and people use, to better our lives, so they get that, and that's saying refreshing is >> Yeah. >> Kind of an understatement. >> That is, yeah. >> But it really is nice to see companies that are willing to go, "Hey, we want to know exactly what these problems "are, so that we can then be strategic "in how we can solve them." >> Exactly, it is refreshing, and I think that more and more companies are realizing that diversity is not a luxury or just sort of a platitude, it's something that is intrinsic to the business, and to the health of the business, and the retention of employees, and as more and more people begin to realize that, I think that we will get better at increasing representation down the line. >> You know, I talked with a lot of women today and wanted to get their thoughts on the MeToo movement, Time's Up; in the last six months, that erupted on the scenes >> Caroline: Yeah. >> Unlikely alliance with Hollywood, and the resounding opinions have been, actually, that's momentum that we can take advantage of; we should be leveraging this, because when you have a platform that's that big, and that global, >> Mm-hmm. >> For an issue that affects every industry, including us in technology >> Mm-hmm. >> That they actually saw that as kind of an elevation of the platform >> Caroline: Yeah. >> I'm curious what your thoughts are about that. >> Yeah, I actually spoke about MeToo, and a couple of other social movements in my talk earlier, and one of the reasons I started my blog, ThreadBred, is because I started to realize this really unique cultural moment, in which I've emerged into the workplace, which has been characterized by these social movements, and a lot of these social movements have been galvanized through social media; social media's been able to bring so much attention to important issues, and shift public perceptions, so with MeToo, a movement that was founded by an African-American woman in 2006, and then it sort of gained more momentum in 2017 when Alyssa Milano tweeted it out, and then to have, a month later, Jackie Speier, congresswoman of California, introduce the MeToo Congress Act, you know, changes happening at such a rapid pace. More so than it ever has in the past, so I'm really excited to be a part of that, and I'm really excited that we are seeing this much progress on this rate. >> We need to keep that going. >> We need to keep it going, absolutely. >> Tell me a little bit more about ThreadBred. >> Yeah, so ThreadBred started in 2014, just as a fun, personal blog; my friends and I were getting our first internships, the summer after our Freshman year of college, and we were all in different industries, and couldn't really, or didn't know where to go in terms of where to get advice about what to wear, and of course, we wanted to make a good impression, so I just started creating outfits, dressing my friends up, telling them, this is what you should wear when you go here or there, and it sort of turned into this personal branding, as a young professional blog, and I started writing more about what are some of the experiences that young people have, directly out of college? What are some of the things they wish they knew before they started their jobs? And then I restarted it when I entered the work world now, and because of what's happening in society, I wanted to shift the attention to focus on these important social issues, such as women's empowerment, the representation of underrepresented minorities, and I've been able to have a lot of great dialogs with people that I know, and people that I have just met, who might have opinions that are different from me, and I think those are the most interesting ones, because they're the learning opportunities, and it sort of transformed into this story space, where we can consolidate information and learn from each other. >> I love that; one of the things that I thought was really cool, when I walked into the event today, was there's a headshot area >> Caroline: Yeah. >> And there's a resume writing clinic and a LinkedIn profile clinic, as well, and you kind of think, those are really foundational pieces to help someone have a professional looking photo, that doesn't have like somebody's arm that you need cropped out. >> Caroline: Absolutely, yeah. >> Or you know, a strong LinkedIn profile, especially if you're young, maybe just finishing with school and don't have a ton of experience; those are really important foundational elements, and it sounds like what you've done with ThreadBred, >> Caroline: Yeah. >> To advise young people on how should you look professional; that's a really cool thing that you've done, there. >> Caroline: Thank you. >> It's an area where you might think it's a small thing, but I think that can be very impactful. >> Yeah, it's kind of like the things that nobody tells you once you go in, it's just we're trying to capture all of that knowledge in one place, and share it with as many people as possible. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So if you look down, finishing in the next what, year or so, >> Caroline: Yeah >> Your two year program at LinkedIn. >> Caroline: Yeah. >> What direction do you think you'd want to go in? >> Well, I love LinkedIn, and when I interviewed, I actually said that I was like the physical manifestation of LinkedIn; I am a networking person, I love connecting people with opportunity, and I love LinkedIn's message of trying to create economic opportunity for the global workforce, and I think that it's really rare that you find a company that's for profit, that also has this really social impact admission, and I want to stay in this space as long as possible, but years down the line, I could envision myself being an entrepreneur, and starting my own company to focus specifically on problems affecting people of color and underrepresented people around the world. I think that that's what I've identified I'm passionate about, and that's what I want to pursue. >> I can feel that from you, so I think definitely entrepreneurial. >> Caroline: Thank you. >> Kind of in summary, what are some of the things that you're going to be taking away from this third annual Women Transforming Technology event? >> Yeah, absolutely, well, from the keynote earlier this morning, it's about listening to the inner voice inside of you, always finding that inner warrior as Leila Ali mentioned, because I think that's so important; I think life is about just having good days, and then having days where you're encountering adversity, and it doesn't matter how much adversity happens to you, it matters how you respond to that, so always leaning into that inner voice and then using your voice to empower other women around you, who might have similar experiences, but who don't necessarily know how to navigate the same situations is where you can be most helpful, so supporting women and always finding your inner strength is what I'm going to take away from today. >> I love that; I'm going to borrow that from you, that was fantastic >> Caroline: Okay. >> Well, Caroline, you're going to be a big star, I can already tell >> Caroline: Oh, thank you. >> It's really nice to hear someone that's so young, that sees the opportunities here, and wants to very naturally, make a difference in it; you're one to watch, >> Caroline: Thank you. >> For sure. >> Thank you. >> Lisa: Thanks for joining us. >> Thank you. >> We want to thank you; I'm Lisa Martin with the Cube, we are on the ground at VMware, at the third annual Women Transforming Technology event, thanks for watching. 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