>>Okay, welcome back everyone. Cube's coverage here in Boston, Massachusetts, AWS reinforced 22, the security conference. It's ADOS big security conference. Of course, the cubes here, all the reinvent res re Mars reinforce. We cover 'em all now and the summits. I'm John. Very my host, Dave ante have IDC weighing in here with their analysis. We've got some great guests here, Jay Brisbane, research VP at IDC and Philip who research managed for cloud security. Gentlemen, thanks for coming on. Thank you. Appreciate it. Great >>To, to be here. I appreciate the got the full >>Circle, right? Just, security's more interesting >>Than storage. Isn't it? >>Dave, Dave and Jay worked together. This is a, a great segment. I'm psyched that you guys are here. We had Crawford and Matt Eastwood on at HPE discover a while back and really the, the, the data you guys are getting and the insights are fantastic. So congratulations to IDC. You guys doing great work. We appreciate your time. I wanna get your reaction to the event and the keynotes. AWS has got some posture and they're very aggressive on some tones. Some things that they didn't, we didn't hear. What's your reaction to the keynote, share your, your assessment. >>So, you know, I managed two different research services at IDC right now. They are both cloud security and identity and, and digital security. Right. And what was really interesting is the intersection between the two this morning, because every one of those speakers that came on had something to say about identity or least privileged access, or, you know, enable MFA, or make sure that you, you know, control who gets access to what and deny explicitly. Right? And it's always been a challenge a little bit in the identity world because a lot of people don't use MFA. And in RSA, that was another big theme at the RSA conference, right? MFA everywhere. Why don't they use it because it introduces friction and all of a sudden people can't get their jobs done. Right. And the whole point of a network is letting people on to get that data they want to get to. So that was kind of interesting, but, you know, as we have in the industry, this shared responsibility model for cloud computing, we've got shared responsibility for between Philip and I, I have done in the ke past more security of the cloud and Philip is more security in the cloud, >>So yeah. And it's, and now with cloud operation, super cloud, as we call it, you have on premises, private cloud coming back, or hasn't really gone anywhere, all that on premises, cloud operations, public cloud, and now edge exploding with new requirements. Yeah. It's really an ops challenge right now. Not so much dev. So the sick and op side is hot right now. >>Yeah. Well, we've made this move from monolithic to microservices based applications. And so during the keynote this morning, the announcement around the guard duty malware protection component, and that being built into the pricing of current guard duty, I thought was, was really key. And there was also a lot of talk about partnering in security certifications. Yeah. Which is also so very important. So we're seeing this move towards filling in that talent gap, which I think we're all aware of in the security industry. >>So Jake square, the circle for me. So Kirk, Coel talked about Amazon AWS identity, where does AWS leave off and, and companies like Okta or ping identity or crock pickup, how are they working together? Does it just create more confusion and more tools for customers? We, we have, we know the over word overused word of seamless. Yeah. Yeah. It's never seamless. So how should we think about that? >>So, you know, identity has been around for 35 years or something like that started with the mainframes and all that. And if you understand the history of it, you make more sense to the current market. You have to know where people came from and the baggage they're carrying, cuz they're still carrying a lot of that baggage. Now, when it comes to the cloud service providers, they're more an accommodation from the identity standpoint, let's make it easy inside of AWS to let you single sign on to anything in the cloud that they have. Right. Let's also introduce an additional MFA capability to keep people safer whenever we can and, you know, provide people the tools to, to get into those applications somewhat easily, right. While leveraging identities that may live somewhere else. So, you know, there's a whole lot of the world that is still active directory centric, right? There's another portion of companies that were born in the cloud that were able to jump on things like Okta and some of the other providers of these universal identities in the cloud. So, you know, like I said, you, if you understand where people came from in the beginning, you start to, to say, yeah, this makes sense. >>It's, it's interesting. You talk about mainframe. I, I always think about rack F you know, and I say, okay, who did what, when, where, yeah. And you hear about a lot of those themes. What, so what's the best practice for MFA? That's, that's non SMS based. Is it, you gotta wear something around your neck, is it to have sort of a third party authenticator? What are people doing that is that, that, that you guys would recommend? >>Yeah. One quick comment about adoption of MFA. You know, if you ask different suppliers, what percent of your base that does SSO also does MFA one of the biggest suppliers out there Microsoft will tell you it's under 25%. That's pretty shocking. Right? All the messaging that's come out about it. So another big player in the market was called duo. Cisco bought them. Yep. Right. And because they provide networks, a lot of people buy their MFA. They have probably the most prevalent type of MFA it's called push. Right. And push can be, you know, a red X and a green check mark to your phone. It can be a QR code, you know, somewhere, it can be an email push as well. So that is the next easiest thing to adopt after SMS. And as you know, SMS has been denigrated by N and others saying, you know, it's susceptible to man and middle attacks. >>It's built on a telephony protocol called SS seven. Yep. You know, predates anything. There's no certification, either side. The other real dynamic and identity is the whole adoption of PKI infrastructure. As you know, certificates are used for all kinds of things, network sessions, data encryption, well identity increasingly, and a lot of the, you know, consumers and especially the work from anywhere, people these days have access through smart devices. Right. And what you can do there is you can have an agent on that smart device, generate your private key and then push out a public key. And so the private key never leaves your device. That's one of the most secure ways to, so if your >>SIM card gets hacked, you're not gonna be as at vulnerable >>Or as vulnerable. Well, the SIM card is another, you know, challenge associated with the, the older waste. But yeah. Yeah. >>So what do you guys think about the open source connection and, and they, they mentioned it up top don't bolt on security implying shift left, which is embedding it in like sneak companies, like sneak do that, right. Container oriented, a lot of Kubernetes kind of cloud native services. So I wanna get your reaction to that. And then also this reasoning angle, they brought up kind of a higher level AI reasoning decisions. So open source and this notion of AI reasoning >>Automation. Yeah. And, and you see more open source discussion happening, right. So you, you know, you have your building maintaining and vetting of the upstream open source code, which is critical. And so I think AWS talking about that today, they're certainly hitting on a nerve as, you know, open source continues to proliferate around the automated reasoning. I think that makes sense. You know, you want to provide guiderails and you want to provide roadmaps and you wanna have sort of that guidance as to okay. What's the, you know, a correlation analysis of different tools and products. And so I think that's gonna go over really well. >>Yeah. One of the other, you know, key points of what open source is, everybody's in a multi-cloud world, right? Yeah. And so they're worried about vendor lockin, they want an open source code base so that they don't experience that. >>Yeah. And they can move the code around and make sure it works well on each system. Dave and I were just talking about some of the dynamics around data control planes. So yeah. They mentioned encrypt everything, which is great. And I message, by the way, I love that one, but oh. And he mentioned data at rest. I'm like, what about data in flight? Didn't hear that one. So one of the things we're seeing with super cloud, and now multi-cloud kind of, as destinations of that, is that in digital transformation, customers are leaning into owning their data flows. >>Yeah. >>Independent of say the control plane aspects of what could come in. This is huge implications for security, where sharing data is huge. Even Schmidt on Steve said we have billions and billions of things happening that we see things that no one else else sees. So that implies, they're >>Sharing quad trillion, >>Trillion, 15 zeros trillion. Yeah. 15 >>Zeros, 15 zeros. Yeah. >>So that implies, they're sharing that or using that, pushing that into something. So sharing's huge with cyber security. So that implies open data, data flows. What do, how do you guys see this evolving? I know it's kind of emerging, but it's becoming a, a nuanced point that's critical to the architecture. >>Well, I, yeah, I think another way to look at that is the sharing of intelligence and some of the recent directives, you know, from the executive branch, making it easier for private companies to share data and intelligence, which I think strengthens the cyber community overall, >>Depending upon the supplier. Right? Yeah. It's either an aggregate level of intelligence that has been, you know, anonymized or it's specific intelligence for your environment that, you know, everybody's got a threat feed, maybe two or three, right. Yeah. But back to the encryption point, I mean, I was working for an encryption startup for a little while. Right after I left IBM. And the thing is that people are scared of it. Right. They're scared of key management and rotation. And so when you provide, >>Because they might lose the key. >>Exactly. Yeah. It's like shooting yourself in the foot. Right. So that's when you have things like, you know, KMS services from Amazon and stuff, they really help out a lot and help people understand, okay, I'm not alone in this. >>Yeah. Crypto >>Owners, they call that hybrid, the hybrid key, they call the, what they call the, today. They call it the hybrid. >>What was that? The management service. Yeah. The hybrid. So hybrid HSM, correct. >>Yeah. What is that? What is that? I didn't, I didn't get that. I didn't understand what he meant by the hybrid post hybrid, post quantum key agreement. Right. That still notes >>Hybrid, post quantum key exchange, >>You know, AWS never made a product name that didn't have four words in it, >>But he did, but he did reference the, the new N algos. And I think I inferred that they were quantum proof or the claim it be. Yeah. And AWS was testing those. Correct. >>Yeah. >>So that was kind of interesting, but I wanna come back to identity for a second. Okay. So, so this idea of bringing traditional IAM and, and privilege access management together, is that a pipe dream, is that something that is actually gonna happen? What's the timeframe, what's your take on that? >>So, you know, there are aspects of privilege in every sort of identity back when, you know, it was only the back office that used computers for calculations, right? Then you were able to control how many people had access. There were two types of users, admins, and users, right? These days, everybody has some aspect of, >>It's a real spectrum, really >>Granular. You got the, you know, the C suite, the finance people, the DevOps, people, you know, even partners and whatever, they all need some sort of privileged access. And the, the term you hear so much is least privileged access. Right? Shut it down, control it. So, you know, in some of my research, I've been saying that vendors who are in the Pam space privilege access management space will probably be growing their suites, playing a bigger role, building out a stack because they have, you know, the, the expertise and the, and the perspective that says we should control this better. How do we do that? Right. And we've been seeing that recently, >>Is that a combination of old kind of antiquated systems meets for proprietary hyperscale or kind of like build your own? Cause I mean, Amazon, these guys, they Facebook, they all build their own stuff. >>Yes. They >>Do enterprises buy services from general purpose identity management systems. >>So as we were talking about, you know, knowing the past and whatever privileged access management used to be about compliance reporting. Yeah. Right. Just making sure that I knew who accessed what and could prove it. So I didn't fail in art. It wasn't >>A critical infrastructure item. >>No. And now these days, what it's transitioning into is much more risk management. Okay. I know what our risk is. I'm ahead of it. And the other thing in the Pam space was really session monitor. Right. Everybody wanted to watch every keystroke, every screen's scrape, all that kind of stuff. A lot of the new privilege access Mon management doesn't really require that it's nice to have feature. You kind of need it on the list, but is anybody really gonna implement it? That's the question. Right. And then, you know, if, if you do all that session monitor, does anybody ever go back and look at it? There's only so many hours in the day. >>How about passwordless access? You know? Right. I've heard people talk about that. Yeah. I mean, that's as a user, I can't wait, but >>It's somewhere we want to all go. Yeah. Right. We all want identity security to just disappear and be recognized when we log in. So the, the thing with password list is there's always a password somewhere and it's usually part of a registration, you know, action. I'm gonna register my device with a username password. And then beyond that, I can use my biometrics. Right. I wanna register my device and get a private key that I can put in my enclave. And I'll use that in the future. Maybe it's gotta touch ID. Maybe it doesn't. Right. So even though there's been a lot of progress made, it's not quote unquote, truly passwordless, there's a group industry standards group called Fido. Right. Which is fast identity online. And what they realized was these whole registration passwords. That's really a single point of failure. Cuz if I can't recover my device, I'm in trouble. Yeah. So they just did a, a new extension to sort of what they were doing, which provides you with much more of a, like an iCloud vault, right. That you can register that device in and other devices associated with that same iPad that you can >>Get you to it. If you >>Have to. Exactly. I had >>Another have all over the place here, but I, I want to ask about ransomware. It may not be your wheelhouse. Yeah. But back in the day, Jay, remember you used to cover tape. All the, all the backup guys now are talking about ransomware. AWS mentioned it today and they showed a bunch of best practices and things you can do air gaps. Wasn't one, one of 'em. Right. I was really surprised cuz that's all, every anybody ever talks about is air gaps. And a lot of times that air gaps that air gap could be a guess to the cloud. I guess I'm not sure. What are you guys seeing on ransomware >>Apps? You know, we've done a lot of great research around ransomware as a service and ransomware and, and you know, we just had some data come out recently that I think in terms of spending and, and spend and in as a result of the Ukraine, Russia war, that ransomware assessments rate number one. And so it's something that we encourage, you know, when we talk to vendors and in our services, in our publications that we write about taking advantage of those free strategic ransomware assessments, vulnerability assessments, right. As well, and then security and training ranked very highly as well. So we wanna make sure that all of these areas are being funded well to try and stay ahead of the curve. >>Yeah. I was surprised that not the air gaps on the list, that's all everybody >>Talks about. Well, you know, the, the old model for air gaping in the, the land days, the Noel days, you took your tapes home and put 'em in the sock drawer. >>Well, it's a form of air gap security and no one's gonna go there >>Clean. And then the internet came around >>Guys. Final question. I want to ask you guys, we kind zoom out. Great, great commentary by the way. Appreciate it. As the, we've seen this in many markets, a collection of tools emerge and then there's it's tool sprawl. Oh yeah. Right? Yeah. So cyber we're seeing trend now where Mon goes up on stage of all the E probably other vendors doing the same thing where they're organizing a platform on top of AWS to be this super platform. If you super cloud ability by building more platform thing. So we're saying there's a platform war going on, cuz customers don't want the complexity. Yeah. I got a tool, but it's actually making it more complex if I buy the other tool. So the tool sprawl becomes a problem. How do you guys see this? Do you guys see this platform emerging? I mean, tools won't go away, but they have to be >>Easier. Yeah. We do see a, a consolidation of functionality and services. And we've been seeing that, I think through a 20, 20 flat security survey that we released, that that was definitely a trend. And you know, that certainly happened for many companies over the last six to 24 months, I would say. And then platformization absolutely is something we talk 'em right. About all the time. So >>More M and a couple of years ago, I called the, the Amazon tool set in rector set. Yeah. Because it really required assembly. Yeah. And you see the emphasis on training here too, right? Yeah. You definitely need to go to AWS university to be competent. It >>Wasn't Lego blocks yet. No, it was a rector set. Very good distinction rules, you know, and, and you lose a few. It's >>True. Still too many tools. Right. You see, we need more consolidation. That's getting interesting because a lot of these companies have runway and you look, you look at sale point, its stock prices held up cuz of the Toma Bravo acquisition, but all the rest of the cyber stocks have been crushed. Yeah. You know, especially the high flyers, like a Senti, a one or a crowd strike, but yeah, just still M and a opportunity >>Itself. So platform wars. Okay. Final thoughts. What do you thinks happening next? What's what's your outlook for the, the next year or so? >>So in the, in the identity space, I'll talk about Phillip can cover cloud force. You know, it really is more consolidation and more adoption of things that are beyond simple SSO, right. It was, you know, just getting on the systems and now we really need to control what you're able to get to and who you are and do it as transparently as we possibly can because otherwise, you know, people are gonna lose productivity, right. They're not gonna be able to get to what they want. And that's what causes the C-suite to say, wait a minute, you know, DevOps, they want to update the product every day. Right. Make it better. Can they do that? Or did security get in the way people every once in a while I'll call security, the department of no, right? Yeah. Well, >>Yeah. They did it on stage. Yeah. They wanna be the department of yes, >>Exactly. And the department that creates additional value. If you look at what's going on with B to C or C IAM, consumer identity, that is all about opening up new direct channels and treating people like, you know, they're old friends, right. Not like you don't know 'em you have to challenge >>'em we always say you wanna be in the boat together. It sinks or not. Yeah. Right. Exactly. >>Phillip, >>Okay. What's your take? What's your outlook for the year? >>Yeah. I think, you know, something that we've been seeing as consolidation and integration, and so, you know, companies looking at from built time to run time investing in shift left infrastructure is code. And then also in the runtime detection makes perfect sense to have both the agent and agentless so that you're covering any of the gaps that might exist. >>Awesome. Jerry, Phillip, thanks for coming on the queue with IDC and sharing >>Your oh our pleasure perspective. >>Commentary, have any insights and outlook. Appreciate it. You bet. Thank you. Okay. We've got the great direction here from IDC analyst here on the queue. I'm John for a Dave, we're back more after this shirt break.

>>welcome to the session. Long live swarm with containers and kubernetes everywhere we have this increasing cloud complexity at the same time that we're facing economic uncertainty and, of course, to navigate this. For most companies, it's a matter of focusing on speed and on shipping and iterating their code faster. Now. For many, Marantz is customers. That means using docker swarm rather than kubernetes to handle container orchestration. We really believe that the best way to increase your speed to production is choice, simplicity and security. So we wanted to bring you a couple of experts to talk about the state of swarm and Docker enterprise and how you can make best use of both of you. So let's get to it. Well, good afternoon or good morning, depending on where you are on and welcome to today's session. Long live swarm. I am Nick Chase. I'm head of content here at Mantis and I would like to introduce you to our two Panelists today eight of Manzini. Why don't you introduce yourself? >>I am a van CNI. I'm a solutions architect here at Moran Tous on work primarily with Docker Enterprise System. I have a long history of working with support team. Um, at what used to be Ah Docker Enterprise, part of Docker Inc. >>Yeah, Okay. Great. And Don Power. >>I, um Yeah, I'm Don Power on the docker. Captain Docker, community leader. Right now I run our Dev Ops team for Citizens Bank out of Nashville, Tennessee, and happy to be here. >>All right, Excellent. So All right, so thank you both for coming. Now, before we say anything else, I want to go ahead and kind of name the elephant in the room. There's been a lot of talk about the >>future. Yeah, that's right. Um, swarm as it stands right now, um, we have, ah, very vested interest in keeping our customers on who want to continue using swarm, functional and keeping swarm a viable alternative or complement to kubernetes. However you see the orchestration war playing out as it were. >>Okay? It's hardly a war at this point, but they do work together, and so that's >>absolutely Yeah, I I definitely consider them more of like, complimentary services, um, using the right tool for the job. Sort of sense. They both have different design goals when they were originally created and set out so I definitely don't see it as a completely one or the other kind of decision and that they could both be used in the same environment and similar clusters to run whatever workload that you have. >>Excellent. And we'll get into the details of all that as we go along. So that's terrific. So I have not really been involved in in the sort of swarm area. So set the stage for us where we kind of start out with all of this. Don I know that you were involved and so guys said, set the stage for us. >>Sure, Um I mean so I've been a heavy user of swarm in my past few roles. Professionally, we've been running containers in production with Swarm for coming up on about four years. Now, Um, in our case, we you know, we looked at what was available at the time, and of course you had. Kubernetes is your biggest contender out there, but like I just mentioned, the one of the things that really led us to swarm is it's design goals were very different than kubernetes. So Kubernetes tries to have an answer for absolutely every scenario where swarm tries to have an answer for, like, the 80% of problems or challenges will say that you might come across 80% of the workloads. Um, I had a better way of saying that, but I think I got my point across >>E Yeah, I think I think you hit the nail on the head. Um, Kubernetes in particular with the way that kubernetes itself is an a P I I believe that kubernetes was, um, you know, written as a toolkit. It wasn't really intended to be used by end users directly. It was really a way to build platforms that run containers. And because it's this really, really extensible ap I you can extend it to manage all sorts of resource is swarm doesn't have that X sensibility aspect, but what it was designed to do, it does very, very well and very easily in a very, very simple sort of way. Um, it's highly opinionated about the way that you should use the product, but it works very effectively. It's very easy to use. It's very low. Um, not low effort, but low. Ah, low barrier to entry. >>Yes. Yes. Absolutely. I was gonna touch on the same thing. It's very easy for someone to come in. Pick up swarm. You know they don't They don't have to know anything about the orchestrator on day one. Most people that are getting into this space are very familiar with Docker. Compose um, and entering from Docker compose into swarm is changing one command that you would run on the command line. >>Yeah, very, very trivial to if you are already used to building docker files using composed, organize your deployment into stacks of related components. It's trivial to turn on swarm mode and then deploy your container set to a cluster. >>Well, excellent. So answer this question for me. Is the swarm of today the same as the swarm of, you know, the original swarm. So, like when swim first started is that the same is what we have now >>it's kind of ah, complicated story with the storm project because it's changed names and forms a few times. Originally in is really somewhere around 2014 in the first version, and it was a component that you really had to configure and set up separately from Docker Ah, the way that it was structured. Ah, you would just have docker installed on a number of servers are machines in your cluster. And then you would organize them into a swarm by bringing your own database and some of the tooling to get those nodes talking to each other and to organize your containers across all of your docker engines. Ah, few years later, the swarm project was retooled and baked into the docker engine. And, um, this is where we sort of get the name change from. So originally it was a feature that we called swarm. Ah. Then the Swarm Kit project was released on Get Hub and baked directly into the engine, where they renamed it as swarm mode. Because now it is a motile option that you just turn on as a button in the docker engine and because it's already there the, um, the tuning knobs that you haven't swarm kit with regard to how what my time outs are and some of these other sort of performance settings there locked there, they're there. It's part of the opinionated set of components that builds up the docker engine is that we bring in the Swarm Kit project with a certain set of defaults and settings. And that is how it operates in today's version of Docker engine. >>Uh, okay for that, that makes sense. That makes sense. So ah, so don, I know you have pretty strong feelings about this topic, but it is swarm still viable in a world that's sort of increasingly dominated by Kubernetes. >>Absolutely. And you were right. I'm very passionate about this topic where I work. We're we're doing almost all of our production work lives on swarm we only have out of Ah, we've got something like 600 different services between three and 4000 containers. At any given point in time. Out of all of those projects, all of those services we've only run into two or three that don't kind of fit into the opinionated model of swarm. So we are running those on KUBERNETES in the same cluster using Moranis is Docker enterprise offering. But, um, no, that's a very, very small percentage of services that we didn't have an answer for in swarm with one. The one case that really gets us just about every time is scaling state full services. But you're gonna have very few staple services in most environments for things like micro service architecture, which is predominantly what we build out. Swarm is perfect. It's simple. It's easy to use you, don't you? Don't end up going for miles of yamma files trying to figure out the one setting that you didn't get exactly right? Um yeah, the other Thea the other big piece of it that way really led us to adopting it so heavily in the beginning is, you know, the overlay network. So your networks don't have to span the whole cluster like they do with kubernetes. So we could we could set up a network isolation between service A and service B, just by use using the built in overlay networks. That was a huge component that, like I said, let us Teoh adopting it so heavily when we first got started. >>Excellent. You look like you're about to say something in a >>Yeah, I think that speaks to the design goals for each piece of software. On the way that I've heard this described before is with regard to the networking piece the ah, the docker networking under the hood, um, feels like it was written by a network engineer. The way that the docker engine overlay networks communicate uses ah, VX lan under the hood, which creates pseudo V lands for your containers. And if two containers aren't on the same Dylan, there's no way they can communicate with each other as opposed to the design of kubernetes networking, which is really left to the C and I implementation but still has the design philosophy of one big, flat sub net where every I p could reach every other i p and you control what is allowed to access, what by policy. So it's more of an application focused Ah design. Whereas in Docker swarm on the overlay networking side, it's really of a network engineering sort of focus. Right? >>Okay, got it. Well, so now how does all this fit in with Docker enterprise now? So I understand there's been some changes on how swarm is handled within Docker Enterprise. Coming with this new release, >>Docker s O swarm Inside Docker Enterprise is represented as both the swarm classic legacy system that we shift way back in 2014 on and then also the swarm mode that is curly used in the docker engine. Um, the Swarm Classic back end gives us legacy support for being able to run unmanaged plane containers onto a cluster. If you were to take Docker ce right now, you would find that you wouldn't be able to just do a very basic docker run against a whole cluster of machines. You can create services using the swarms services, a p I but, um, that that legacy plane container support is something that you have to set up external swarm in order to provide. So right now, the architecture of Docker Enterprise UCP is based on some of that legacy code from about five or six years ago. Okay. Ah, that gives us ability to deploy plane containers for use cases that require it as well as swarm services for those kinds of workloads that might be better served by the built in load balancing and h A and scaling features that swarm provides. >>Okay, so now I know that at one point kubernetes was deployed within Docker Enterprise as you create a swarm cluster and then deploy kubernetes on top of swarm. >>Correct? That is how the current architecture works. >>Okay. All right. And then, um what is what is where we're going with this like, Are we supposed to? Are we going to running Swarm on top of kubernetes? What's >>the the design goals for the future of swarm within branches? Stocker Enterprise are that we will start the employing Ah, like kubernetes cluster features as the base and a swarm kit on top of kubernetes. So it is like you mentioned just a reversal of the roles. I think we're finding that, um, the ability to extend kubernetes a p I to manage resource is is valuable at an infrastructure and platform level in a way that we can't do with swarm. We still want to be able to run swarm workloads. So we're going to keep the swarm kit code the swarm kit orchestration features to run swarm services as a part of the platform to keep the >>got it. Okay, so, uh, if I'm a developer and I want to run swarm, but my company's running kubernetes what? What are my one of my options there? Well, I think >>eight touched on it pretty well already where you know, it depends on your design goals, and you know, one of the other things that's come up a few times is Thea. The level of entry for for swarm is much, much simpler than kubernetes. So I mean, it's it's kind of hard to introduce anything new. So I mean, a company, a company that's got most of their stuff in kubernetes and production is gonna have a hard time maybe looking at a swarm. I mean, this is gonna be, you know, higher, higher up, not the boots on the ground. But, um, you know, the the upper management, that's at some point, you have to pay for all their support, all of it. What we did in our approach. Because there was one team already using kubernetes. We went ahead and stood up a small cluster ah, small swarm cluster and taught the developers how to use it and how to deploy code to it. And they loved it. They thought it was super simple. A time went on, the other teams took notice and saw how fast these guys were getting getting code deployed, getting services up, getting things usable, and they would look over at what the innovation team was doing and say, Hey, I I want to do that to, uh, you know, so there's there's a bunch of different approaches. That's the approach we took and it worked out very well. It looks like you wanted to say something too. >>Yeah, I think that if you if you're if you're having to make this kind of decision, there isn't There isn't a wrong choice. Ah, it's never a swarm of its role and your organization, right? Right. If you're if you're an individual and you're using docker on your workstation on your laptop but your organization wants to standardize on kubernetes there, there are still some two rules that Mike over Ah, pose. And he's manifest if you need to deploy. Coop resource is, um if you are running Docker Enterprise Swarm kit code will still be there. And you can run swarm services as regular swarm workloads on that component. So I I don't want to I don't want people to think that they're going to be like, locked into one or the other orchestration system. Ah, there the way we want to enable developer choice so that however the developer wants to do their work, they can get it done. Um Docker desktop. Ah, ships with that kubernetes distribution bundled in it. So if you're using a Mac or Windows and that's your development, uh, system, you can run docker debt, turn on your mode and run the kubernetes bits. So you have the choices. You have the tools to deploy to either system. >>And that's one of the things that we were super excited about when they introduced Q. Burnett ease into the Docker Enterprise offering. So we were able to run both, so we didn't have to have that. I don't want to call it a battle or argument, but we didn't have to make anybody choose one or the other. We, you know, we gave them both options just by having Docker enterprise so >>excellent. So speaking of having both options, let's just say for developers who need to make a decision while should I go swarm, or should I go kubernetes when it sort of some of the things that they should think about? >>So I think that certain certain elements of, um, certain elements of containers are going to be agnostic right now. So the the the designing a docker file and building a container image, you're going to need to know that skill for either system that you choose to operate on. Ah, the swarm value. Some of the storm advantage comes in that you don't have to know anything beyond that. So you don't have to learn a whole new A p I a whole new domain specific language using Gamel to define your deployment. Um, chances are that if you've been using docker for any length of time, you probably have a whole stack of composed files that are related to things that you've worked on. And, um, again, the barrier to entry to getting those running on swarm is very low. You just turn it on docker stack, deploy, and you're good to go. So I think that if you're trying to make that choice, if you I have a use case that doesn't require you to manage new resource is if you don't need the Extensible researchers part, Ah, swarm is a great great, great viable option. >>Absolutely. Yeah, the the recommendation I've always made to people that are just getting started is start with swarm and then move into kubernetes and going through the the two of them, you're gonna figure out what fits your design principles. What fits your goals. Which one? You know which ones gonna work best for you. And there's no harm in choosing one or the other using both each one of you know, very tailor fit for very various types of use cases. And like I said, kubernetes is great at some things, but for a lot of other stuff, I still want to use swarm and vice versa. So >>on my home lab, for all my personal like services that I run in my, uh, my home network, I used storm, um, for things that I might deploy onto, you know, a bit this environment, a lot of the ones that I'm using right now are mainly tailored for kubernetes eso. I think especially some of the tools that are out there in the open source community as well as in docker Enterprise helped to bridge that gap like there's a translator that can take your compose file, turn it into kubernetes. Yeah, Mel's, um, if if you're trying to decide, like on the business side, should we standardize on former kubernetes? I think like your what? What functionality are you looking at? Out of getting out of your system? If you need things like tight integration into a ah infrastructure vendor such as AWS Azure or VM ware that might have, like plug ins for kubernetes. You're now you're getting into that area where you're managing Resource is of the infrastructure with your orchestration. AP I with kube so things like persistent volumes can talk to your storage device and carve off chunks of storage and assign those two pods if you don't have that need or that use case. Um, you know, KUBERNETES is bringing in a lot of these features that you maybe you're just not taking advantage of. Um, similarly, if you want to take advantage of things like auto scaling to scale horizontally, let's say you have a message queue system and then a number of workers, and you want to start scaling up on your workers. When your CPU hits a certain a metric. That is something that Kubernetes has built right into it. And so, if you want that, I would probably suggest that you look at kubernetes if you don't need that, or if you want to write some of that tooling yourself. Swarm doesn't have an object built into it that will do automatic horizontal scaling based on some kind of metric. So I always consider this decision as a what features are the most I available to you and your business that you need to Yep. >>All right. Excellent. Well, and, ah, fortunately, of course, they're both available on Docker Enterprise. So aren't we lucky? All right, so I am going to wrap this up. I want to thank Don Bauer Docker captain, for coming here and spending some time with us and eight of Manzini. I would like to thank you. I know that the the, uh, circumstances are less than ideal here for your recording today, but we appreciate you joining us. Um and ah, both of you. Thank you very much. And I want to invite all of you. First of all, thank you for joining us. We know your time is valuable and I want to invite you all Teoh to take a look at Docker Enterprise. Ah, follow the link that's on your screen and we'll see you in the next session. Thank you all so much. Thank you. >>Thank you, Nick.

>>from our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley, Palo Alto, California It is a cute conversation. >>Hey, welcome back already, Jeffrey. Here with the cue, we're in our pal Amato Studios for acute conversation or excited, have ah, many Time Cube alone. I has been at all types of companies. He's moving around. We like to keep him close because he's got a great feel for what's going on. And now he's starting a new adventure. Eso really happy to welcome Alan Cohen back to the studio. Only great to see you. >>Hey, Draft, how are you >>in your new adventure? Let's get it right. It's the D C v c your partner. So this is ah, on the venture side. I'm gonna dark. You've gone to the dark side of the money side That is not a new firm, dark side. You know what's special about this town of money adventure right now, but you guys kind of have a special thesis. So tell us about yeah, and I think you've spoken >>to Matt and Zack. You know my partners in the past, So D. C. V. C is been in the venture business for about a decade and, um, you know, the 1st 5 years, the fund was very much focused on building, ah, lot of the infrastructure that we kind of take for granted. No things have gone into V m wear and into Citrix, and it's AWS, and hence the data collect of the D. C out of D. C. V. C. Really, the focus of the firm in the last five years and going forward is an area we call deep tech, which think about more about the intersection of science and engineering so less about. How do you improve the IittIe infrastructure? But how do you take all this computational power and put it to work in in specific industries, whether it's addressing supply chains, new forms of manufacturing, new forms of agriculture. So we're starting to see all that all the stuff that we've built our last 20 years and really apply it against kind of industrial transformation. So and we're excited. We just raise the $725 million fund. So we I got a little bit of ammunition to work with, >>Congratulate says, It's fun. Five. That's your eighth fund. Yeah, and really, it's consistent with where we're seeing all the time about applied a I and applied machine. Exactly. Right in New York, a company that's gonna build a I itt s'more the where you applying a i within an application, Where you applying machine, learning within what you do. And then you can just see the applications grow exactly right. Or are you targeting specific companies that are attacking a particular industrial focus and just using a eyes, their secret sauce or using deep taxes or secret uh, all of the above? Right. So, like I >>did when I think about D c v c like it's like so don't think about, um, I ops or throughput Orban with think about, um uh, rockets, robots, microbes, building blocks of effectively of human life and and of materials and then playing computational power and a I against those areas. So a little bit, you know, different focus. So, you know, it's the intersection of compute really smart computer science, but I'll give you a great example of something. It would be a little bit different. So we are investors and very active in a company called Pivot Bio, which is not exactly a household name. Pivot bio is a company that is replacing chemical fertilizer with microbes. And what I mean by that is they create microbes they used. So they've used all this big data and a I and computational power to construct microbes that when you plant corn, you insert the microbe into the planting cycle and it continuously produces nitrogen, which means you don't have to apply fertilizer. Right? Which fertilizer? Today in the U. S. A. $212 billion industry and two things happen. One you don't have. All of the runoff doesn't leech into the ground. The nitrous does. Nitrogen doesn't go into the air, and the crop yield has been a being been between about 12 and 15% higher. Right? >>Is it getting put? You know, the food industry is such a great place, and there's so many opportunities, both in food production. This is like beyond a chemical fertilizer instead of me. But it's great, but it's funny because you think of GMO, right? So all food is genetically modified. It's just It took a long time in the past because you had to get trees together, and yet you replant the pretty apples and throw the old apple trees away. Because if you look at an apple today versus an apple 50 years, 100 years, right, very, very different. And yet when we apply a man made kind of acceleration of that process than people, you know, kind of pushed back Well, this is this is not this is not nature, So I'm just curious in, in, in in, Well, this is like a microbe, you know? You know, they actually it is nature, right? So nature. But there'll be some crazy persons that wait, This is not, you know, you're introducing some foreign element into Well, you could take >>potash and pour it on corn. Or you could create a use, a microbe that creates nitrogen. So which one is the chemical on which one is nature, >>right, That that's why they get out. It's a funny part of that conversation, but but it's a different area. So >>you guys look, you guys spent a lot of time on the road. You talked a lot of startups. You talked a lot of companies. You actually talked to venture capitalists and most of the time where you know, we're working on the $4 trillion I t sector, not an insignificant sector, right? So that's globally. It's that's about the size of the economy. You know, manufacturing, agriculture and health care is more like 20 to $40 billion of the economy. So what we've also done is open the aperture to areas that have not gone through the technical disruption that we've seen an I t. Right now in these industries. And that's what's that mean? That's why I joined the firm. That's why I'm really excited, because on one hand you're right. There is a lot of cab you mentioned we were talking before. There is a lot of capital in venture, but there's not a CZ much targeted at the's area. So you have a larger part of global economy and then a much more of specific focus on it. >>Yeah, I think it's It's such a you know, it's kind of the future's here kind of the concept because no one knows, you know, the rate of which tech is advancing across all industries currently. And so that's where you wake up one day and you're like, Oh, my goodness, you know, look at the impacts on transportation. Look at the impacts on construction of the impacts on health care. Look at the impacts on on agriculture. So the opportunity is fantastic and still following the basic ideas of democratizing data. Not using a sample of old data but using, you know, real time analytics on hold data sets. You know, all these kind of concepts that come over really, really well to a more commercial application in a nightie application. Yeah. So, Jeff, I'm kind of like >>looking over your shoulder. And I'm looking at Tom Friedman's book The world is flat. And you know, if we think about all of us have been kind of working on the Internet for the last 20 years, we've done some amazing things like we've democratized information, right? Google's fairly powerful part of our lives. We've been able to allow people to buy things from all over the world and ship it. So we've done a lot of amazing things in the economy, but it hasn't been free. So if I need a 2032 c r. 20 to 32 battery for my key fob for my phone, and I buy it from Amazon and it comes in a big box. Well, there's a little bit of a carbon footprint issue that goes with that. So one of our key focus is in D. C V. C, which I think is very unique, is we think two things can happen is that weaken deal with some of the excess is over the economy that we built and as well as you know, unlock really large profit pulls. At the end of the day, you know, it has the word Venture Patrol says the word capital, right? And so we have limited partners. They expect returns. We're doing this obviously, to build large franchises. So this is not like this kind of political social thing is that we have large parts of the economy. They were not sustainable. And I'll give you some examples. Actually, you know, Jeff Bezos put out a pledge last week to try to figure out how to turn Amazon carbon neutral. >>Pretty amazing thing >>right with you from the was the richest person Now that half this richest person in the world, right? But somebody who has completely transformed the consumer economy as well as computing a comedy >>and soon transportation, right? So people like us are saying, Hey, >>how can we help Jeff meet his pledge? Right? And like, you know, there are things that we work on, like, you know, next generation of nuclear plants. Like, you know, we need renewables. We need solar, but there's no way to replace electricity. The men electricity, we're gonna need to run our economy and move off of coal and natural gas, Right? So, you know, being able to deal with the climate impacts, the social impacts are going to be actually some of the largest economic opportunities. But you can look at it and say, Hey, this is a terrible problem. It's ripping people across. I got caught in a traffic jam in San Francisco yesterday upon the top of the hill because there was climate protest, right? And you know, so I'm not kind of judging the politics of that. We could have a long conversation about that. The question is, how do you deal with these real issues, right and obviously and heady deal with them profitably and ethically, and I think that something is very unique about you know, D. C. V. C's focus and the ability to raise probably the largest deep tech fund ever to go after. It means that you know, a lot of people who back us also see the economic opportunity. And at the end of day there, you know, a lot of our our limited partners, our pension funds, you know, in universities, like, you know, there was a professor who has a pension fund who's gotta retire, right? So a little bit of that money goes into D C V C. So we have a responsibility to provide a return to them as well as go after these very interesting opportunities. >>So is there any very specific kind of investment thesis or industry focus Or, you know, kind of a subset within, you know, heavy lifting technology and science and math. That's a real loaded question in front of that little. So we like problems >>that can be solved through massive computational capability. And so and that reflects our heritage and where we all came from, right, you and I, and folks in the industry. So, you know, we're not working at the intersection of lab science at at a university, but we would take something like that and invest in it. So we like you know we have a lot of lessons in agriculture and health care were, surprisingly, one of the largest investors in space. We have investments and rocket labs, which is the preferred launch vehicle for any small satellite under two and 1/2 kilograms. We are large investors and planet labs, which is a constellation of 200 small satellites over investors and compel a space. So, uh, well, you know, we like space, and, you know, it's not space for the sake of space. It's like it's about geospatial intelligence, right? So Planet Labs is effectively the search engine for the planet Earth, right? They've been effectively Google for the planet, right? Right. And all that information could be fed to deal with housing with transportation with climate change. Um, it could be used with economic activity with shipping. So, you know, we like those kinds of areas where that technology can really impact and in the street so and so we're not limited. But, you know, we also have a bio fund, so we have, you know, we're like, you know, we like agriculture and said It's a synthetic biology types of investments and, you know, we've still invest in things like cyber we invest in physical security were investors and evolve, which is the lead system for dealing with active shooters and venues. Israel's Fordham, which is a drone security company. So, um, but they're all built on a Iot and massive >>mess. Educational power. I'm just curious. Have you private investment it if I'm tree of a point of view because you got a point of view. Most everything on the way. Just hear all this little buzz about Quantum. Um, you know, a censure opened up their new innovation hub in the Salesforce tower of San Francisco, and they've got this little dedicated kind of quantum computer quanta computer space. And regardless of how close it is, you know there's some really interesting computational opportunities last challenges that we think will come with some period of time so we don't want them in encryption and leather. We have lost their quantum >>investments were in literally investors and Righetti computing. Okay, on control, cue down in Australia, so no, we like quantum. Now, Quantum is a emerging area like it's we're not quite at the X 86 level of quantum. We have a little bit of work to get there, but it offers some amazing, you know, capabilities. >>One thing >>that also I think differentiates us. And I was listening to What you're saying is we're not afraid. The gold long, I mean a lot of our investments. They're gonna be between seven and 15 years, and I think that's also it's very different if you follow the basic economics adventure. Most funds are expected to be about 10 years old, right? And in the 1st 3 or four years, you do the bulk of the preliminary investing, and then you have reserves traditional, you know, you know, the big winners emerged that you can continue to support the companies, some of ours, they're going to go longer because of what we do. And I think that's something very special. I'm not. Look, we'd like to return in life of the fun. Of course, I mean, that's our do share a responsibility. But I think things like Quantum some of these things in the environment. They're going to take a while, and our limited partners want to be in that long ride. Now we have a thesis that they will actually be bigger economic opportunities. They'll take longer. So by having a dedicated team dedicated focus in those areas, um, that gives us, I think, a unique advantage, one of one of things when we were launching the fund that we realized is way have more people that have published scientific papers and started companies than NBA's, um, in the firm. So we are a little bit, you know, we're a little G here. That >>that's good. I said a party one time when I was talking to this guy. You were not the best people at parties we don't, but it is funny. The guy was He was a VC in medical medical tech, and I didn't ask him like So. Are you like a doctor? Did you work in a hospital where you worked at A at a university that doesn't even know I was investment banker on Wall Street and Michael, that's that's how to make money move. But do you have? Do you have the real world experience of being in the trenches? Were Some of these applications are being used, but I'm also curious. Where do you guys like to come in? ABC? What's your well, sweets? Traditionally >>we are have been a seed in Siri's. A investor would like to be early. >>Okay, Leader, follow on. Uh, everybody likes the lead, right? Right, right, right. You know what? Your term feet, you >>know? Yeah, right. And you have to learn howto something lead. Sometimes you follow. So we you know, we do both. Okay, Uh, there are increasing as because of the size of the fund. We will have the opportunity to be a little bit more multi stage than we traditionally are known for doings. Like, for example, we were seed investors in little companies, like conflict an elastic that worked out. Okay, But we were not. Later stage right. Investors and company likes companies like that with the new fund will more likely to also be in the later stages as well for some of the big banks. But we love seed we love. Precede. We'd like three guys in in a dog, right? If they have a brilliant >>tough the 7 50 to work when you're investing in the three guys in a dog and listen well and that runs and runs and you know you >>we do things we call experiments. Just you know, uh, we >>also have >>a very unique asset. We don't talk about publicly. We have a lot of really brilliant people around the firm that we call equity partners. So there's about 60 leaning scientists and executives around the world who were also attached to the firm. They actually are, have a financial stake in the firm who work with us. That gives us the ability to be early Now. Clearly, if you put in a $250,000 seed investment you don't put is the same amount of time necessarily as if you just wrote a $12 million check. What? That's the traditional wisdom I found. We actually work. Address this hard on. >>Do you have any? Do you have any formal relationships within the academic institutions? How's that >>work? Well, well, I mean, we work like everybody else with Stanford in M I t. I mean, we have many universities who are limited partners in the fund. You know, I'll give you an example of So we helped put together a company in Canada called Element A I, which actually just raised $150 million they, the founder of that company is Ah, cofounder is a fellow named Joshua Benji. Oh, he was Jeff Hinton's phD student. Him in the Vatican. These guys invented neural networks ing an a I and this company was built at a Yasha his position at the University of Montreal. There, 125 PhDs and a I that work at this firm. And so we're obviously deeply involved. Now, the Montreal A icing, my child is one of the best day I scenes in the world and cool food didn't and oh, yeah, And well, because of you, Joshua, because everybody came out of his leg, right? So I think, Yes, I think so. You know, we've worked with Carnegie Mellon, so we do work with a lot of universities. I would, I would say his university's worked with multiple venture firm Ah, >>such an important pipeline for really smart, heavy duty, totally math and tech tech guys. All right, May, that's for sure. Yeah, you always one that you never want to be the smartest guy in the room, right, or you're in the wrong room is what they say you said is probably >>an equivalent adventure. They always say you should buy the smallest house in the best neighborhood. Exactly. I was able to squeeze its PCB sees. I'm like, the least smart technical guy in the smartest technical. There >>you go. That's the way to go. All right, Alan. Well, thanks for stopping by and we look forward. Thio, you bring in some of these exciting new investment companies inside the key, right? Thanks for the time. Alright. He's Alan. I'm Jeff. You're watching the Cube. We're Interpol about the studios. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time.

>> from Bahrain. It's the Q covering AWS Public sector Bahrain brought to you by Amazon Web service is >> Welcome back. It runs the cube coverage for Amazon whips were summoned by rain and Middle East jump for cloud computing. Our startup panel at two great guests. So, Abdullah, who's with Flat Labs? Flat? Six Labs Incubator Investor. Same dull bet with sink. Sorry. So sorry They got that wrong with little glare on my spring there. Thanks for coming on. Appreciate it. Guys, start up. Scene here is robust. Last year from this year, More energy, more deployed capital because you're deploying capital. You're building a company. Give us the update start. >> Yeah, I would say over the past year, just our Bahrain location alone. We've already hit 23 startups that we've invested in, and we're looking to increase that number by about 68 start ups every six months. Um, as you've seen over the past year and Amina region and the GCC, there's rapid growth in the startup scene. Um and we're slowly starting to see each vertical fill up with the relevant startups and get more saturated. I think for a while we were one of the regions that were a lot less saturated when it came to our local startup because systems and the rest of the world The good thing is, now that we've gotta love the financial infrastructure into place, flat six Labs is one of them. And I think that's where we really um, we're lacking support before on DSO were signed to feel see players come into every stage of the startup growth be ableto help the stops raise their seed funds. Siri's a Series B >> and your role here is outreach building out my rain. Yet where the Economic Development Board trying to figure out that put together an entrepreneur strategy and not figure it out. We know what it is. You get money? Yeah, yeah. Party together, >> Yes. So what we're trying to do is there's two main things. One is that we're trying Thio finally be the first kind of financial investor that can help people going from a full time job in tow. You know, full time entrepreneurship rolls on to give them access to three of the biggest barriers that they usually will face, which is a business development network mentorship on Capitol andan. Everything that we're doing is weed. So personally, What I take care of is that I go to a lot of the international events around the globe, would start up because systems and try and find very early stage founders and educate them on the market. The region see where people would fit, where the gaps are in the market on dumb kind of raise awareness of old advantages that we have here in Bahrain. >> What makes you guys different? What's the differentiation >> as a country or as flat six labs? Both. So I'd say, as a country behinds in a very unique position where we have, ah, cultural mindset that is very easy for a lot of foreigners and expatriates to adapt to, Um, I think we've even been ranked number one in the world as a place for expect us to live several times on DA number. Thing is that we have a very high skilled workforce. Um, overhead costs are lower. So, for example, when it comes to the cost of rent when it comes to hiring a team, you also have subsidies that come into place like Tom Keen, uh, which Sam has also benefited from where if you go and you hire fresh graduate Bahrainis, you'll get >> ah, >> large margin of that subsidized by the government. So you're looking at, ah, mix where you have a high quality of life. But at the same time, it's the best starting point for a lot of start ups. Because you can extend your runway. You have, ah, much lower cash burn, and at the same time you've got one of the biggest market places right next door, which is Saudi Arabia, is the 30 minute drive across the bridge. So we've kind of got the best of all worlds over here, and and because we're a small country, we have a government that's incredibly reactive. So the regulatory authorities are very close with the startup ecosystem, for example, were always involved in the economic development board round table meetings on the ministries, all working closely together to try and make this as friendly and atmosphere is possible for the startup >> and they're authentic. That's interesting and see government authentically aligning. >> Yeah, it's in the interest of entrepreneur, I would say. One thing we really have going on is it's really an nationwide initiative from the founders to the private entities and investors like us and to the governmental agencies where we all are really dedicated towards making this start up >> san talk about your company. What do you guys do and what's your situation? >> Right? So my company's name is sinking. We're software as a service company that helps businesses manage the really hard aspects of managing their employees like things like timesheets scheduling. Job safety is a big one for us and job costing, and our target market is actually us small businesses and way were early stage company, and we met Salar and Flat six Labs, and they convinced us to come sit up here in Bahrain and never looked back. But the access to talent here is just amazing the cost of very low and were able to do a lot of a very small amount of money. And so far we've got to a total of four and 1/2 1000 U. S. Businesses using the platform. And we've done that all here from Bahrain, >> so very low, low cost leverage, a model, and that's because of the substance of just talent >> as a >> mixer, so it's a little bit cheaper to hire. People have more access to tell him it's a number of things. It's both of those things. >> Yeah, the university programs were interesting there. Got a degree in cloud Computing. They announced that we heard that news today. I mean, that's compelling. I mean, have you want to make the market just teach it? Yeah, exact. This is good, I think. >> I think the good thing is that everyone's come to an understanding that all parties have to get actively involved to make it the right atmosphere. So the universities are also working very closely with us hand in hand. And I've seen Percy a gigantic improvement over the past year where their senior projects of the universities are turning out where they got legitimate startup. It's Dex on Dhe. Some of them are even ready to go straight into acceleration, which was not the case a few years ago. So everybody's really on board. >> That's one of things we met last year in the economic Dillman for that round table. Lotte. I won't say complaints but concerns, and they're very listening to the whiteboards out their charts. How are they doing? Checking the boxes? They are checking the items off, moving these blockers and what's remaining in your mind in terms of things to make it frictionless. >> Yeah, I'd say like there's so far. We've done a great start andan the space of a year. We've accomplished a lot. But of course there's still shifting the whole mentality to understand the startup scene and also, you know, to get people to be less as, ah, cultural mentality, risk averse and start letting people feel that failure is an okay thing. It's okay to go straight out of university and give it a shot and try and start your own startup, Um, and also educating people of all the tools that are available to them. So although we do a lot of outreach and roadshows, still, there's, ah, a lot of people that need to be educated on how exploration works, how the VC side of it works. And I'd say another thing. We need Thio See coming is bridge funds. So we've got people that are ready to come in at Siri's a that precede that seed. But then there's usually these gaps where we need to kind of help Fila's well to keep people on target towards seriously >> like a bullpen. Capital kind of model. Like Paul Martinez Company? Yeah, sass coming that are in between being Air B or B and C just need that little bridge. Yeah, exactly. That. Just >> that extra runway so that they can hit the targets that the later stage investors want us. >> Guys, give it plug for your reference. What you working on? Now? What do you quit your to do? Item? What's, uh what's the plan? Give a pitch for the company. >> Looks way No. The first company to attack time tendons. And we won't be the last. But where we think that we can win his job costing and job tracking, which is something that the customers that we talked to it really screaming out, too. So we've been building a really complex but simple to use system for managing jobs the last 3 to 6 months, and we're about to deploy that to our users in a few weeks. We're very excited about that. And that's really our secret source. We just a lot of guys doing the time in attendance. We're doing it very well, but we want to be the best of jobs. And we also want to stay laser focused throughout our particular users, which is actually employers with 1 to 20 employees in the states. And that's actually that actually makes up 89% of all employers in the States. And it's very hard to historically to find these guys. But we'll be having a smart phone in their pocket. It's actually becoming easier and easier for us, and we find it. >> And those coming need the most help, too, because they're the ones that could grow to 50 employees next. Exactly. So what's the U. R L? Our website and app Tick and download. What's the head of someone contact U S. >> So they will go to sync dot business and they can use the Web version there. But we also have to mobile app so we could be found in the APP store and on the place. >> Awesome. Congratulations and updates for you guys. What's next for you here by rain in general? >> Well, in Bahrain and Demeanor Region, we're continuing to expand their several locations that we're gonna launch again as accelerator programs on dhe. Locally, over here, we're always accepting applications from international startups. We're actually having our demo day tomorrow So you should drop by if you're gonna be here. Yes. Did I would be great if you come down and a CZ that happens. We're accepting applications to the next cycle on dhe. They can just log onto flat six labs, bahrain dot com All the information's over there. And if they want to get in touch with me, they can just put my name into Lincoln. So >> I beat him up into a system, and when they're ready to accelerate, they go. Good to go. Congratulates. Good job, guys. Thanks for the update. Startup scene is robust here by rain. The Cube coverage for our second year covering Amazon Web service is summit. I'm Jumper Stevens for more coverage after this short break.

>> live from San Francisco celebrating 10 years of high tech coverage. It's the Cube covering Veum World 2019 brought to you by IBM Wear and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to San Francisco. We continue our coverage here. Live on the Cube. 10th year John of covering Veum World This is 29 teens version John for John Wall's Got to have inside the Moscone Center. We're joined now by Varun Chabrol It was the vice president of marketing at Delhi M. C. Good to see you today. >> Thanks for having me. >> How's your week been? So far? >> It's been amazing. How can you don't get excited? All the innovation we're seeing this week >> we'll hear about some big announcements. Do you guys have made? And Moon Young Man Azzedine, who is the vice president of product marketing that for cloud security and works based solutions at Veum wear when you're good to see you. >> Good to see you again. You, By >> the way, you might be the busiest guy here. Yesterday, when you came into the set, you were coming in. Just spoken to 1300 people in a standing room only session You coming out? 500 folks, How many sessions have you done? The seven. So >> you don't count the the one on one with the analyst. And, uh, you know, the customers and partners and press. And tomorrow actually host ah 140 press media analyst on campus in Palo Alto from Asia Pacific because they float all the way from Asia >> plus 140. Yeah, it's a piece of cake. >> Yeah, hose them from 10 to 4. So, I mean, >> you're always smiling >> knowing that this is a pretty wide audience to whom you've been speaking. But just generally, what are you if there's a common thread at all about the kinds of questions that people are coming to you with, or or the concerns or maybe just the things they want to talk about being inspired. But what they're hearing here at the show, >> Okay. Now, according to two aspects of it, one obviously from analysts themselves, you know, they are actually have been very complimentary about the way we've taken our approach. I'm not sure if you could have paid attention. In the last couple of years, we've been talking especially the cloud side, the narrative, to be very much about use cases, solving problems. You know the key? No, we talked about hate my grade modernize. It wasn't about Hey, I've got the next big product here with all these features and capabilities. You do this and that. So we're gonna shifted out narrative. And it was very, you know, the the analyst across the boat. You know, we've been seeing an appreciative of the fact that you actually changing a narrative to be re compelling and we're gonna reflected. And we have some things here like Cloud City, where it's not a standard demo boot. It's a it's ah, Customers walk in and they touch and feel and see which we did it, Adele technology will, too. It's like, What's your business? Probably going through these applications. I'm sitting. I don't know if I should be modernizing them or should be migrating into Amazon. A ridge or so. So you know that narrative the analysts are appreciative off, and that reflects into the customer conversations I've been having in the briefings, like one on one with customers. They're really kind of lost us. D'oh! Hey, I've I'm working in this environment. There's a lot of pressure for me. Thio modernize my applications or go adopt my cloud. First strategy is where do I start? Where do I go? It's like, you know, there's a big pressure, so they just want clarity. I think in the end, everything we're gonna we're doing in our study that comes out obviously the buzzword for this weird world. It stanza, right? And, you know, >> we've won the product announcements was >> actually Brandon can Oh, yeah. Branding announcement, to be honest is yeah, because we're trying to bring together, as you know, in Tansy has landed in Bill Run Manage billed as in you know how our intent to acquire Pivotal Already acquired Big Tommy. How all our different acquisitions with different brand names are coming together to establish our bills portfolio again. The sphere. Everybody knows the sphere Project Pacific P ks. All of those create a good run time, environment and manageability like Adi manage with assets from ve Franta gain morbid Nami and you know it. So this multiple brands that are coming into this package off Iran. So we had a creative tan Xue too, you know, put forward statement together that yes is going to be 78 different brands coming into this, but going forward to stand. >> So so that's a great strategy on De Liam Seaside on Del Technology. Michael Dell was in here and I asked him. I said he could have been number one in everything you could. Let's talk about I'm number one in servers again. You kind of get on HP, little baby. But those air peace parts now. So we've got the cloud game. It's bringing despair it at parts together kind and making it coherent from a positioning standpoint and understandable and deployable. So you guys are going down there. That's your cloud strategy. Take a minute to explain that. >> Yeah, absolutely, John. So So what? What we've been doing. We announced this at Del Technologies will this year. But, you know, in the cloud infrastructure space, we're working very closely with the anywhere too tightly integrate our hardware solutions with their their cloud software. And we think that by combining these two in a tightly integrated joined engineer, jointly engineered solutions coupled with the service, is that you know, both of'em were and l e m c bring the customers we think we have. We're giving customers are very consistent experience both with their own premises, infrastructure with public cloud as well as with the edge cloud. And that's really what we're trying to do. That's what we've been building upon and uniting the announcements this week. You know, just just hopefully show customers that the sky's the limit, whether it's not just your infrastructure management. Also app development. Managing your APS both traditional and and cloud native. It's all here for And >> what's the big takeaway free from your standpoint that you'd like people to know about what's going on? Adele the emcee for the VM. Where relation. What's the big top item? >> Yeah, there's there's there's just so much good Doctor Wait forever drank the town about. If someone rises >> way, only have two hours >> time work. The most important thing that people should should know about it, >> you know, both deli M. C and V. M. R. I think, are very, very customer driven companies that we respond to customer feedback and we try to respond to them very fast. That's been true to our respective lifetimes and what we've done in the so that I think there's two broad areas of collaboration. One is in the cloud space, which is all about, you know, making sure that the the innovation that GM is bringing the market, we're providing that in a toy tightly integrated infrastructure solution. Right. So we announced from a deli in seaside support for Vienna, where p ks being deployed automatically on Vieques trail using VCF return. Our customers can you know, a lot of teams were telling us we have our developers and turning developers banging slash knocking on the door, saying we need to build a cloud. Native applications. You need to give us an environment that we can use. And you know, if if all righty, if these IittIe teams don't turn around and give them something relatively quickly Well, guess what? The developers will go somewhere else, right? Yeah, exactly. So And if you look at the kubernetes environment today, if you really look look at what the work that's required to set up kubernetes and ready infrastructure. So a lot of scripting a lot of manual, you know, work command line interface is testing stuff. And what what? V m r p k s does. And you know what times you will do as well is really makes it easy when we've taken that with the magic of the American Foundation sitting on top of the exhale to make it super easy for our customers to be able to deploy kubernetes ready infrastructure and then have it be ready for scale, right? And then the important thing here also is this is the same infrastructure of the expelling bcf that our customers are using for traditional applications as well, right? Trying to reduce that complexity. Give them the one platform. So this cloud, you know, we had we were doing the same integration on just with R A C I platform, but also with our best to breach storage or we're not working with the C f. And then we're also making investments on data protection like it's so important to be able to manage your data in this multi cloud world. We have applications sitting everywhere, data. We all know that it is a crown jewel. So >> it's really a king validating from the Vienna a point of view. How that works right is is about applications is about the infrastructure, and it's about the operation and it really kind of together as we talk about Han Xue p. K s is giving our customers that Chuy's off. You pick Cuban eighties, you know, environments, application choice. >> Um, >> it took us. Actually, we didn't We didn't arrive it in that order. Wait. Did it. In the outer off Infrastructure Plot Foundation is a critical piece of the joint engineering. But being aware and the Della Bella Technologies is really from aviary perspective. It took Locke Foundation, and that's the stack that runs in every public cloud. So, you know AWS as your G C P 4000 plus, you know, cloud provider partners. But Flat Foundation is a platform that was validated on. They'll take hardware and you know, that's the package. But now, as you see, we're lighting that it's same infrastructure up for traditional and culminated applications. >> I think the app sides important to point out, because if you could ve m wears heritage, you look at Dale's heritage. You had abs that ran on PCs absent, ran on servers, client server. And if you look at the fertilization that wasn't under the covers, apt an innovation that didn't require code changes. So that's the DNA that you guys have. Now, when you think about like cloud to point out which we've been riffing on that concept that's basically enterprise cloud mean donut. Hybrid cloud applications are gonna drive. The value on our premises is that they're going to be customer requirements that traditionally wouldn't have fit in the product. Marketing, management, featureless customs. Gonna define what they want. They'll build it, and then they'll dictate to the infrastructure to make it run. What? We can't do that yet. It'll be, Yes, we cannot be enabled to be dynamics. This is a a new cloud. 2.0, feature. This changes the complete game on suppliers >> completely agree. You know to your point, because, you know, you bring it thio back toward civilization. We've been going higher up the stack on So Day zero virtualization infrastructure will virtual eyes. So the line off abstraction has just been climbing from hardware retort realization next to like, you know, Pat platform of the service, and you kind of were working up our way down infrastructure. Now that base infrastructure platform looks like plants. Right? >> And there were times out a little bit over here. On the upside, you meet in the middle of >> it in the middle >> that is Hello, >> absolutely so ap and at middle wears shrinking down this way. Infrastructures. You know that the cloud incriminating stride in the middle to say, Well, that's a bit of, you know, infrastructure is a Kodak and pull. He's a bit of a AP AP eyes I can can I draw from And that's kind of nice future middleware. But our dad, I >> mean, I think applications air in charge, right? I mean, that's not sure That's the dynamic. That's the way it should be. But it never was that way before is basically the infrastructure was your gating factor. The network exact cloud two points Network security data. Yes, Dev Ops. A true Dev Ops Devane, Ops, Infrastructures Code. >> The only point I wanted to add is the reason the emphasis on abscess change acts in the past. Used to be a business support system after today is business. >> Yeah, I mean, it's >> really or you're you're gonna live or die based on the digital services you provide your customers. The other thing I was going to say about cloud 2.0, is that it's also becoming increasingly clear when we Dr customers that, um, customers are realizing Cloud is not a place right. There was this kind of cloud. One point it was okay. Big honking data centers, hyper skaters will be found now is that customers have gone through that process of and there's a lot more maturity in terms of understanding. What is good, better running on premises. What is what's better running in public Cloud? There's a place for both of them and that, um, and the cloud is actually the automation, the service delivery. It's Maurin operation and a way of being almost than a place. >> And what is it? Well, what does it do for you all? Then, in terms of challenge, especially at your teams, because you talk about all this customization, you're allowing the application to almost drive. You know, you're changing places in terms of who's the power of the relationship? Yes. Oh, me, yeah, How what? What does that do for you? Oh, in terms of how you approach that, how you change of mindset and how you change what you deliver? >> I think John, it's the way I think about it is that both daily emcee in Vienna, or any technology provider that's worth their salt is in the business of building platforms. Right? And platforms are essentially extensible. They're really they really provide a foundation that other people can innovate on top of it. And that's how I think you handled the customers issue. If one thing I think we can all agree on is that I t has always taught us there's no one size fits. All right? Right. So I think providing choice along every single dimension is super important for our >> customers. Yeah, I think that platform thing is a huge point. And I was gonna ask that question before John got jumped in because one of the things that you just brought up was platform is you guys have to build an enabling platform. One as suppliers. Okay, The successful cloud to point out cos are ones that are innovating in weird areas. Monitoring, for instance, they who will have thought that monitoring now observe ability would be such a massive, lucrative sector four. I pose M and A Why? Because it's data. It's instrumentation. This is operating system kind of thinking here is like network. So thinking like a platform on the supplier size one, the customers got to start thinking like a platform because their stakeholders air their internal developers or a P I shipping to suppliers. This is new for enterprises. This is news requires full hybrid capability. This requires date at the center of the value proposition. >> That's again the biggest value is business and I tr coming together on the area of applications and data. Yeah, that's starting up giving because the successful businesses are the ones who leveraged. Those guys have failed in the future, or the ones who don't pay attention to how critical applications are to the business logic and how critical data is to be able to mine and get the behavioral analytics to get ahead. And >> now the challenge in all this. But I'm learning and covering some of the public sector activity from the C I. A contract Jedi with Amazon to we had Raytheon Her here earlier is another customer example with another client is that procurement? And how they do business is not just a technical thing. There's like all this old legacy, things like, How do you procure technology, who you hire her and we hire developers? We build our own stack, so there's a lot of things going on. >> Yes, and you know, it's really interesting on the even on the procurement front, how our customers experience with Cloud has changed expectations, right, And that's really what we're doing with the McLaren DMC is what customers told us is, Hey, I love the agility of the cloud portal based access. Easy procurement. I love just being able to click a button and not have to navigate all this complexity. I need that for my own premises infrastructure. Imagine FRA structure. And that's, you know, in an example, while all of these dynamics are really all converging, >> well, if you can create abstraction, layer on a level of complexity and make things easy, simple and affordable, that's good business. Model >> one of our customers without taking the name right. The massive retailer you know they're spinning up, um, the retail outlets like crazy. They measure success in This was one truck roll, so they wanna have the entire infrastructure come into stand up one of the retail outlets in one truck roll. When everything comes in one button push that everything gets in a provision and up together. >> So that means I gotta have full software instrumentation automation Got intelligence. This is kind of where cloud 2.0, will lead us all >> likely. And that's expectation now that they go so fast and deploying this one Truck roll Hardware's there. Switch it on from the cloud it stood up and they're in operation 24 hours. >> Well, guys, we're going to get you on our power panels in our Palace of studio on this topic cloudy. But it's gonna be very aggressive and controversial topic because it's going to challenge the status quo. And that's really what this we're talking about >> that's in our DNA. >> And the good news is that that's more time with John. >> So as we before, we say so long, we've talked about clients. We talked about the folks you bet here. We talked about the presentation on this thing and what they're all getting out of it. What are you getting out of this? I mean, what are your takeaways? As you had back to your respective work orders, you get first. Okay? >> I think for me the biggest takeaway is just how incredibly vibrant via more user communities. I mean, it is unlike anything else I've seen before and now with the things like Project Pacific. I just feel like it's It's an opportunity for this community to be able to take the skills they have right now and actually go into this brave new world of containers with so much help forces having to do this all by yourself. Which means it's gonna be, you know, if you think about how largest community is, think about how much innovation this will spore in the container space and because of that in the application space and then because of that in business is I mean, this is a It just feels like a tipping point for me >> to me. Sure, I got high fives from every tech geek, you know, when we came out, you know, I also on our technical advisory boats for the company that these are the hot core geeks who were followed and you know us to the, you know, these were the fans and they were like, you know, they always kind of like if you walk out of them and you talk to them and they, uh how did it work? Because they my bar, you have a very high bar. They cut through all your marketing messaging. They go right to the hay. Is there meet in this And the high fives? I got the hajj. I got out. This is like, guys, you're nailing it. That's enough to tell me that a This is, like, 10 years ago. Yeah, that body. It's like you're so busy. I'm still smiling because the energy is I >> can't give you a hug. Give me a high five. Right. Good work, gentlemen. Thanks for the time. Always, he's still smiling to >> get you to a step. >> Good deal. Thanks for being with us. Thank you. Live on the Cube. You're watching our coverage in world 2019. Where? San Francisco. Back with more. Right after this.

(upbeat music) >> Welcome to this special CUBEConversation here in the Palo Alto CUBE studio. I'm John Furrier, the co-host, theCUBE co-founder of SiliconANGLE Media. In theCUBE we're here with Alan Cohen, CUBE alumni, joining us today for a special segment on the future of technology and the impact to society. Always good to get Alan's commentary, he's the Chief Commercial Officer for Illumio, industry veteran, has been through many waves of innovation and now more than ever, this next wave of technology and the democratization of the global world is upon us. We're seeing signals out there like cryptocurrency and blockchain and bitcoin to the disruption of industries from media and entertainment, biotech among others. Technology is not just a corner industry, it's now pervasive and it's having some significant impacts and you're seeing that in the news whether it's Facebook trying to figure out who they are from a data standpoint to across the board every company. Alan, great to see you. >> Always great to be here, I always feel like, I can't tell whether I'm at the big desk at ESPN or I've got the desk chair at CNBC, but that's what it's like being on theCUBE. >> Great to have you on extracting the signal noises, a ton of noise out there, but one of things of the most important stories that we're tracking is, that's becoming very obvious, and you're seeing it everywhere from Meed to all aspects of technology. Is the impact of technology to people in society, okay you're seeing the election, we all know what that is, that's now a front and center in the big global conversation, the Russian's role of hacking, the weaponizing of data, Facebook's taking huge brand hits on that, to emerging startups, and the startup game that we're used to in Silicon Valley is changing. Just the dynamics, I mean cryptocurrency raises billions of dollars but yet (laughs) something like 10, 20% of it's been hacked and stolen. It's a really wild west kind of environment. >> Well it's a very different environment. John, you and I have been in the technology industry certainly for a whole bunch of lines under our eyes over the years have gone there. My friend Tom Friedman has this phrase that he says, "Everybody's connected and nobody's in control," so the difference is that, as you just said, the tech industry is not a separate industry. The tech industry is in every product and service. Cryptocurrency is like, the concept of that money is just code. You know, our products and services are just code, it raises a couple of really core issues. Like for us on the security point of view, if I don't trust people with the products they're selling me, that I feel like they're going to be hacked, including my personal data, so your product now includes my personal information, that's a real problem because that could actually melt down commerce in a real way. Obviously the election is if I don't trust the social systems around it, so I think we're all at an, and I'd like to say world is still kind of like iRobot moment, and if you remember iRobot, it's like, people build all these robots to serve humankind and then one day the robots wake up and they go, "We have our own point of view on how things are going to work" and they take over, and I think whether it's the debate about AI, whether cryptocurrency's good or bad, or more importantly, the products and services I use, which are now all digitally connected to me, whether I trust them or not is an issue that I think everyone in our industry has to take a step back because without that trust, a lot of these systems are going to stop growing. >> Chaos is an opportunity, I think that's been quoted many times, a variety-- >> You sound like Jeff Goldblum in like Jurassic Park, yeah. (laughing) >> So chaos is upon us, but this is an opportunity. The winds are shifting, and that's an opportunity for entrepreneurs. The technology industry has to start working for us but we've got to be mindful of these blind spots and the blind spots are technology for good not necessarily just for profits, so that also is a big story right now. We see things like AI for good, Intel has been doing a lot of work on that area, and you see stars dedicated to societal impact, then young millennials, you see the demographic shift where they want to work on stuff that empowers people and changes society so a whole kind of new generation revolution and kind of hippie moment, if you look at the 60s, what the 60s were, right? >> Well there's people out in the street protesting, right? There were a couple of million women out in the street this weekend, so we are in that kind of moment again, people are not happy with things. >> And I believe this is a signal of a renaissance, a change, a sea change at enormous levels, so I want to get your thoughts on this. As technology goes out in mainstream, certainly from a security standpoint, your business Illumio is in that now where there's not a lot of control, just like you were mentioning before we came on that all the spends happening but no one has more than 4% market share. These are dynamics and this is not just within one vertical. What's your take on this, how do you view this sea change that's upon us, this tech revolution? >> Well, you know, think about it. You and I grew up in the era where clients server took over from main frame, right? So remember there was this big company called IBM and they owned a lot of the industry, and then it blew up for client server and then there were thousands of companies and it consolidated its way down, but when those thousands of new companies, like you didn't know what was going to be Apollo and what was going to be Oracle right? Like you didn't know how that was going to work out, there was a lot of change and a lot of uncertainty. I think now we're seeing this on a scale like that's 10x of this that there's so much innovation and there's so much connectedness going on very rapidly, but no one is in control. In the security market, you know, what's happening in our world is like, people said, okay I have to reestablish control over my data, I've lost that control, and I've lost it for good reasons, meaning I've evolved to the cloud, I've evolved to the app economy, I've done all of these things, and I've lost it for bad reasons because like am I, like I'm not really running my data center the way I should. We're in the beginning of a move in of people kind of reasserting that control, but it's very hard to put the genie back in the bottle because the world itself is so much more dynamic and more distributed. >> It's interesting, I've been studying communities and online communities for over a decade in terms of dynamics. You know, from the infrastructural level, how packets move to a human interaction. It's interesting, you mentioned that we're all connected and no one's in control, but you now see a ground swell of organic self-forming networks where communities are starting to work together. You kind of think about the analog world when we grew up without computers and networks, you kind of knew everyone, you knew your neighbor, you knew who the town loony was, you kind of knew things and people watch each other's kids and parents sat from the porch, let the kid play, that's the way that I grew up, but it was still chaotic but yet somewhat controlled by the group. So I got to ask you, when you see things like cryptocurrency, things like KYC, know your customer, anti money laundering, which is, you know these are policy based things, but we're in a world now where, you know, people don't know who their neighbors are. You're starting to see a dynamic where people are-- >> Put the phone down. >> Asserting themselves to know their neighbor, to know their customer, to have a connected tissue with context and so your trust and reputation become super important. >> Well I think people are really, so like every time there is a shift in technology, there's scary stuff. There's the fuddy-duddy moment where people are saying, "Oh we can't use that," or "I don't know that," and you know, clearly we're in this kind of new kam-ree and explosion of this cloud mobile blah blah blah type of computing thing and ... Blah blah blah is always a good intersection when you don't have a term. Then things form around it, and just as you said, so if you think about 25 years ago, right, people created The WELL and there was community writing first bulletin boards and like now we have Facebook and you go through a couple of generations and for a while, things feel out of control and then it reforms. I personally am an optimist. Ultimately I believe in the inherent goodness of people, but inherent goodness leaves you open and then, you know, could be manipulated, and people figure these things out. Whether it's cryptocurrency or AI, they are really exciting technologies that don't have any ground rules, right? What's going to happen I believe is that people are going to reestablish ground rules, they're going to figure out some of the core issues, and some of these things may make it, and some of these things may not make it. Like cryptocurrency, like I don't know whether it makes it or not, but certainly the blockchain as a technology we're going to be incorporating in what we do, and maybe the blockchain replaces VPNs and last generation's way of protecting zeros and ones. If AI is figuring out how to read an MRI in five minutes, it's a good thing, and if the AI is teaching you how to exclude old folks for me finding jobs, it's a bad thing. I think as technology forms, there's always Spectre and 007, right? There's always good and bad sides and you know, I think if you believe-- >> I'm with you on that. I think value shifts and I think ultimately it's like however you want to look at it will shift to something, value activity will be somewhere else. Behind me in the bookshelf is a book called The World is Flat and you're quoted in it a lot as a futurist because you have inherently that kind of view, well that's not what you do for a living, but you're kind of in an opt-- >> Alan: Marketing, futurist, kind of same thing. >> Thomas Friedman, the book, that was a great book and at that time, it was game changing. If you take that premise into today where we are living in a flat world and look at cryptocurrency, and then over with the geo political landscape, I mean I just can't see why the Federal Reserve wouldn't reign in this cryptocurrency because if Japan's going to control a bunch of, or China, it's going to be some interesting conversations. I mean I would be like all over that if I was in the Federal Reserve. >> I think people-- Look, cryptocurrency's really interesting and I think people a little over-rotated. If you look at the amount of GDP that's invested in cryptocurrency, it's like, I don't know, there might've been, you know 20 years ago the same amount involved invested in Beanie Babies, right? I mean things show up for a while and the question is is it sustainable over time? Now I'm trained as an economist, you and I have had this conversation, so I don't know how you have a series of monetary without kind of governmental backing, I just don't understand. But I do understand that people find all kinds of interesting ways to trade, and if it's an exchange, like I mean what's the difference between gold and cryptocurrency? Somebody has ascribed a value to something that really has no efficacy outside of its usage. Yeah I mean you can make a filling or bracelets out of gold but it doesn't really mean anything except people agree to a unit of value. If people do that with cryptocurrency, it does have the ability to become a real currency. >> I want to pick your perspective on this being an economist, this is is the hottest area of cryptocurrency, it's also known as token economics, is a concept. >> Alan: Token economics. >> You know that's an area that theCUBE, with CUBE coins, experimenting with tokens. Tokens technically are used for things in mobile and whatnot but having a token as a utility in a network is kind of the whole concept, so the big trend that we're seeing and no one's really talking about this yet is instead of having a CTO, Chief Technology Officer, they're looking for a CEO, a Chief Economist Officer, because what you're seeing with the MVP economy we're living in and this gamification which became growth hack which didn't really help users, the notion of decentralized applications and token economics can open the door for some innovation around value and it's an economic problem, how you have a fiscal policy of your token, there's a monetary policy, what's it tied to? A product and a technology, so you now have a now a new, twisted, intertwined mechanism. >> Well you have it as part of this explosion, right? We're at a period of time, it feels like there's a great amount of uncertainly because everything's, you know, there's a lot of different forces and not everybody's in control of them, and you know, it's interesting. Google has this architecture, they call it BeyondCorp, where the concept is like networks are not trusted so I will just put my trust in this device, Duo Security's a great example of a company that's built a technology, a security technology around it which is completely antithetical to everything we know about networks and security. They're saying everything's the internet, I'll just protect the device that it's on. It's a kind of perfect architecture for a world like where nobody is in charge, so just isolate those, buy this, what is a device? It's a token too, it's a person, your iPhone's your personal token. Then over time, systems will form around it. I think we just have to, we always have to learn how to function in a different type of economy. I mean democracy was a new economy 250 years ago that kind of screwed around with most of the world, and a lot of people didn't think it would make it, in fact we went through two World War wars that it was a little on the edge whether democracy was going to make it and it seems to have done okay, like it was pretty good IPO to buy into. You know, in 1776. But it's always got risks and struggles with it. I think if, ultimately it comes together, it's whether a large group of people can find a way to function socially, economically, and with their personal safety in these systems. >> You bring up a great point, so I want to go to the next level in this conversation which is around-- >> Alan: You've got the wrong guy if you're going to the next level because I just tapped out. >> No, no, no we'll get you there. It's my job to get you there. The question is that everyone always wants to look at, whether it's someone looking at the industry or actors inside the industries across the board, mainly the tech and we'll talk about tech, is the question of are we innovating? You brought up some interesting nuances that we talk about with token economics. I mean Steve Jobs had the classic presentation where he had street signs, technology meets liberal arts. That's a mental image that people who know Steve Jobs, know Apple, was a key positioning point for Apple at that time which was let's make computers and technology connect with society, liberal arts. But we were just talking about is the business impact of technology, the economics, and that's just not like just some hand waving, making technology integrate with business. You're in the security business, There are some gamification technology, gamification that's business built into the products. So the question is, if we have the integration of business, technology, economics, policy, society rolling into the product definitions of innovation, does that change the lens and the aperture of what innovation is? >> I think it does, right? The IT industry's somewhere between three and four trillion dollars depends on how it counts in. It grows pretty slowly, it grows by a low single digit. That tells me as composite, like is that, that slow growth is a structural signal about how consumers of technology think in a macro sense. On a micro sense, things shift very rapidly, right? New platforms show up, new applications show up, all kinds of things show up. What I don't think we have done yet, to your point, is in this new integrated world, the role of technology is not just technology anymore. I don't think, you know you said you need Chief Economical Officer, what about Chief Political Officer? What about a Chief Social Officer? How many heads of HR make decisions about the insertion of systems into their business? And that's what this kind of iRobot concept is in my mind which is that you know, we are exceeding control of things that used to be done by human beings to systems and when you see control, the social mores, the political mores, the cultural mores, and the human emotional mores have to move with it. We don't tend to think about things like that. We're like, "I win and my competitors lose." Like technology used to be much more of a zero sum, my tech's better than yours. But the question is not just is my tech better than yours, is my customer better off in their industry for the consumption of my technology of inserting it into their offering or their service? You know what, that is probably going to be the next area of study. The other thing that's very important in whether, any of you have read Peter Thiel's book Zero to One, the nature of competition technology used to feel like a flat playing field and now the other thing that's rising is do you have super winners? And then what is the power of the super winners? So you mentioned whether it's Facebook or Google or Amazon or you know, or Microsoft, the FANG companies right? Their roles are so much more significant now than the Four Horsemen of the Nasdaq were in 2000 when you had Intel and Cisco and Oracle and Saht-in it's a different game. >> You're seeing that now. That's a good point, so you're reinforcing kind of this notion that the super players if you will are having an impact, you're mentioning the confluence of these new sectors, you know, government, policy, social are new areas. The question is, this sounds like a strategic imperative for the industry, and we're early so it's not like there's a silver bullet or is there, it doesn't sound like there, so to me that's not really in place yet, I mean. >> Oh no. We're not even in alpha. We have demo code for the new economy and we're trying to get the new model funded. >> John: That's the demo version, not the real version. It's the classic joke. >> Yeah this not the alpha or the beta version that like you're going to go launch it. If people think they're launching it, I think it's a little preliminary and you know, it's not just financial investment, it's like do I buy in? I'll tell you something that's really interesting. I've been visiting a bunch of our customers lately and the biggest change I'd say in the last two years is they now have to prove to their customers they're going to be good custodians of their data. Think about that, like you could go to any digital commerce you do, any website you use and you give them basically the ticket to the Furrier family privacy, you do, but you don't spend a lot of time questioning whether they're really going to protect your data. That has changed. And it's really changing in B2B and in government organizations. >> The role of data to us is regulation, GDPR in Europe, but this is a whole new dynamic. >> It's not just my data because I'm worried about my credit card getting hacked, I'm worried about my identity. Like am I going to show up as a meme in some social media feed that's substituted for the news? I don't want to use the FN word, but you know what I mean? It is a really brave new world. It's like a hyper-democracy and a hyper-risky state at the same time. >> We're living in an area of massive pioneering, new grounds, this is new territory so there's a lot of strategic imperatives that are yet not defined. So now let's take it to how people compete. We were talking before we came on camera, you mentioned the word we're in an MVP economy, minimum viable product concept, and you're seeing that being a standard operating procedure for essentially de-risking this challenge. The old way of you know, build it, ship it, will it work? We're seeing the impact from Hollywood to big tech companies to every industry. >> Well you've got a coffee mug for a company that does both. Amazon does MVP in entertainment, like we'll create one pilot and see if it goes as opposed to ordering a season for 17 million dollars to hey, let's try this feature and put it out on AWS. What's interesting is I don't think we've completely tilted but the question is will buyers of technology, of entertainment products, of any product start to say, "I'll try it." You know like, look, I've done four startups and I always know there's somebody I can go to get and try my early product. There are people that just have an appetite, right? The Jeffrey Moores, early adapter, all the way to the left of the-- >> They'll buy anything new. >> They'll try it, they're interested, they have the time and the resources, or they're just intellectually curious. But it was always a very small group of people in the IT industry. What I think that the MVP economy is starting to do is look, I Kickstarted my wallet. I don't know if I'm the only person who bought that skinny little wallet on Kickstarter, it doesn't matter to me, it had appeal. >> What's the impact of the MVP economy? Is it going to change to the competitive landscape like Peter Thiel was suggesting? Does it change the economics? Does it change the makeup of the team? All of the above? What's your thoughts on how this is going to impact? Certainly the encumbrance will seem to be impacted or not. >> I think two things happen. One, it attacks the structural way markets work. If you go back to classical economics, land, labor, and capital, and people who own those assets, now you add information as a fourth. If those guys were around now they would say that would be the fourth core asset, production, I'm sorry, means of production is the term. The people who can dominate that would dominate a market. Now that that's flattened out, you know, I think it pushes against the traditional structures and it allows new giants to kind of show up overnight. I mean the e-commerce market is rife with companies that have, like look at Stich Fix. A company driven by AI, fashions, tries to figure out what you like, sends it to you every month, just had a monster IPO. We invented, by the way the Spiegal Catalog, except like with a personal assistant and you know, it's changed that in just a short number of years. I think two things happen. One is you'll get new potential giants but certainly new players in the market quickly. Two, it'll force a change in the business model of every company. If you're in a cab in any city in the world, I'm not saying whether the app works there or not, Uber and Lyft has forced every cab company to show you here's the app to call the cab. They haven't quite caught up to the rest of the experience. What I think happens is ultimately, the larger players in an industry have to accommodate that model. For people like me, people who build companies or large technology companies, we may have to start thinking about MVPing of features early on, working with a small group, which is a little what the beta process is but now think about it as a commercial process. Nobody does it, but I bet sure a lot of people will be doing it in five years. >> I want to get your take on that approach because you're talking about really disrupting, re-imagining industry, the Spiegal catalog now becomes digital with technology, so the role of technology in business, we kind of talked about the intertwine of that and its nuance, it's going to get better in my opinion. But specifically the IT, the information technology industry is being disrupted. Used to be like a department, and the IT department will give you your phone on your desk, your PC on your desk or whatever, now that's being shattered and everyone that's participating in that IT industry is evolving. What's your take on the IT industry's disruption? >> Well look, it started 20 years ago when Marc Benioff and Salesforce decided to sell the sales forces instead of IT people, right? They went around to the end buyer. I don't think it's a new trend, I think a lot of technology leaders now figure out how to go to the business buyer directly and make their pitch and interestingly enough, the business buyer, if the IT team doesn't get on board, will do that. >> John: Because of cloud computing and ... >> Because of everything. The modern analog I think in our world is that the developers are increasingly in control. Like my friend Martin Casado up in Andreessen talks about this a lot. The traditional model on our industry is you build a product, you launch it, you launch your company, you work with the traditional analyst firms, you try to get a little bit of halo, you get customer references, those are the things you do and there was a very wall structured, for example, enterprise buying cycle. >> And playbook. >> Playbook, and there's the challenger sale and there's Jeffrey Moore and there's like seeing God. You've got your textbooks on how it's been done. As everything turns into code, the people who work with code for a living increasingly become the front end of your cycle and if you can get to them, that changes. Like I mean think about like, you know, Tom wrote about this actually in The World is Flat, like Linux started as a patchy. It didn't start with the IT department, it started with developers and there was the Linux foundation and now Linux is everything. >> There's a big enemy called the big mini computer, and not operating systems and work stations. >> Wiped out whole parts of Boston and other parts of the world, right? >> Exactly, that's why I moved out here. >> You filed client's server out here. >> I filed a smell of innovation. No but this is interesting because this location of industries is happening, so with that, so they also on the analog, so Martin's at Andreessen, so we'll do a little VC poke there at the VCs because we love them of course, they're being dislocated-- >> I don't (mumbles) my investors. >> Well no, their playbook is being challenged. Here's an example, go big or go home investment thesis seems not to be working. Where if you get too much cash on the front end, with the MVP economy we were just riffing on and with the big super powers, the Amazons and the Googles, you can't just go big or go home, you're going to be going home more than going big. >> I think they know that. I mean Dee-nuh Suss-man who's I think Chief Investment Officer at Nasdaq has a very well known talking line that there are half as many public companies as there were 10 years ago, so the exit scenario for our industry is a little bit different. We now have things like acqui-hires, right we have other models for monetization, but I think what the flip side of it is, we're in the-- >> Adapt or die because the value will shift. Liquidity's changing, which acqui-hires-- >> I think the investment community gets it completely and they spend a lot more time with the developer mindset. In fact I think there's been a doubling down focus on technical founders versus business founders for companies for just that reason because as everything turns to code, you got to hang out with the code community. I think there are actually-- >> You think there'll be more doubling down on technical founders? You do, okay. >> Yeah I think because that is ultimately the shift. There are business model shifts, but it's, you know, I mean like Uber was a business model shift, I mean the technology was the iPhone and GPS and they wrote an app for it, but it was a business model shift, so it can be a business model shift. >> And then scale. >> And then scale and then all of those other things. But I think if you don't think about developers when you're in our, and it's like we built Illumio because a developer could take the product and get started. I mean you can, developers actually can write security policy with our product because there's a class of customers, where as not everyone where that matters. There's other people where the security team is in charge or the infrastructure team is in charge but I think everything is based on zeros and ones and everything is based on code and if you're not sensitive to how code gets bought, consumed, I mean there's a GitHub economy which is I don't even have to write the code, I'll go look at your code and maybe use pieces of it, which has always been around. >> Software disruption is clear. Cloud computing is scale. Agile is fast, and with de-risking capabilities, but the craft is coming back and some will argue, we've talked about on theCUBE before is that, you know, the craftsmanship of software is moving to up the stack in every industry, so-- >> I think it's more like a sports league. I love the NBA, right? In the old days, your professional team, you'd scout people in college. Now they used to scout them in high school, now they're scouting kids in middle school. >> (laughs) That's sad. >> Well what it says is that you have to-- >> How can you tell? >> You know but they can, right? I think you know, your point about it craft, you're going to start tracking developers as they go through their career and invest and bet on them. >> Don't reveal our secrets to theCUBE. We have scouts everywhere, be careful out there. (laughs) >> But think about that, imagine it's like there's such a core focus on hiring from college, but we had an intern from high school two years ago. We hire freshman. >> Okay so let's go, I want to do a whole segment on this but I want to just get this point because we're both sports fans and we can riff on sports all day long. >> I'm just not getting the chance >> And the greatness of Tom Brady >> to talk about the Patriots. >> And Tom Brady's gotten his sixth finger attached to his hands for his sixth ring coming up. No but this is interesting. Sports is highly data driven. >> Alan: Yep. >> Okay and so what you're getting at here, with an MVP economy, token economics is more of a signal, not yet mainstream, but you can almost go there and think okay data driven gives you more accuracy so if you can bring data driven to the tech world, that's kind of an interesting point. What's your thoughts on that? >> Yeah I mean look, I think you have to track everything. You have to follow things, and by the way, we have great tools now, you can track people through LinkedIn. There's all kinds of vehicles to tracking individuals, you track products, you track everything, and you know look, we were talking about this before we went on the show right, people make decisions based on analytics increasingly. Now the craft part is what's interesting and I'm not the complete expert, I'm on the business side, I'm not an engineer by training, but look a lot of people understand a great developer is better than five bad developers. >> Well Mark Andris' 10x is a classic example of that. >> There's clearly a star system involved, so if I think in middle school or in high school, you're going to be a good developer, and I'm going to track your career through college and I'm going to try to figure out how to attach. That's why we started hiring freshmen. >> Well my good friend Dave Girouard started a company that does that, will fund the college education for people that they want to bet on. >> Sure, they're just taking an option in them. >> Yeah, option on their earnings. Exactly. >> They are. >> It sounds like token economics to me. (laughs) >> You know you can sell anything. We are in that economy, you can sell those pieces. The good news is I think it can be a great flattener, meaning that it can move things back more to a meritocracy because if I'm tracking people in high school, I'm not worrying whether they're going to go to Stanford or Harvard or Northwestern, right? I'm going to track their abilities in an era and it's interesting, speaking about craft, you know, what are internships? They're apprenticeships. I mean it is a little bit like a craft, right? Because you're basically apprenticing somebody for a future payout for them coming to work for you and being skilled because they don't know anything when they come and work, I shouldn't say that, they actually know a lot of things. >> Alan, great to have you on theCUBE as always, great to come in and get the update. We'll certainly do more but I'd like to do a segment on you on the startup scene and sort of the venture capital dynamics, we were tracking that as well, we've been putting a lot of content out there. We believe Silicon Valley's a great place. This mission's out there, we've been addressing them, but we really want to point the camera this year at some of the great stuff, so we're looking forward to having you come back in. My final question for you is a personal one. I love having these conversations because we can look back and also look forward. You do a lot of mentoring and you're also helping a lot of folks in the industry within just your realm but also startups and peers. What's your advice these days? Because there's a lot of things, we just kind of talked a lot of it. When people come to you for advice and say, "Alan, I got a career change," or "I'm looking at this new opportunity," or "Hey, I want to start a company," or "I started a company," how is your mentoring and your advisory roles going on these days? Can you share things that you're advising? Key points that people should be aware of. >> Well look, ultimately ... I never really thought about it, you just asked the question so, ultimately, I think to me it comes down to own your own fate. What it means is like do something that you're really passionate about, do something that's going to be unique. Don't be the 15th in any category. Jack Welch taught us a long time ago that the number one player in a market gets 70% of the economic value, so you don't want to play for sixth place. It's like Ricky Bobby said, if you're not first, you're last. (John chuckles) I mean you can't always be first, but you should play for that. I think for a lot of companies now, I think they have to make sure that, and people participating, make sure that you're not playing the old playbook, you're not fighting yesterday's battle. Rhett Butler in Gone With the Wind said, "There's a lot of money in building up an empire, "and there's even more money in tearing it down." There are people who enter markets to basically punish encumbrance, take share because of innovation, but I think the really inspirational is you know, look forward five years and find a practical but aggressive path to being part of that side of history. >> So are we building up or are we taking down? I mean it seems to me, if I'm not-- >> You're always doing both. The ocean is always fighting the mountains, right? That is the course of, right? And then new mountains come up and the water goes someplace else. We are taking down parts of the client server industry, the stack that you and I built a lot of our personal career of it, but we're building this new cloud and mobile stack at the same time. And you're point is we're building a new currency stack and we're going to have to build a new privacy stack. It's never, the greatest thing about our industry is there's always something to do. >> How has the environment of social media, things out there, we're theCUBE, we do our thing with events, and just in general, change the growth plans for individuals if you were, could speak to your 23 year old self right now, knowing what you know-- >> Oh I have one piece of advice I give everybody. Take as much risk as humanly possible in your career earlier on. There's a lot of people that have worked with me or worked for me over the years, you know people when they get into their 40s and they go, "I'm thinking about doing a startup," I go, "You know when you got two kids in college "and you're trying to fund your 401K, "working for less cash and more equity may not be "the most comfortable conversation in your household." It didn't work well in my household. I mean I'm like Benjamin Button. I started in big companies, I'm going to smaller companies. Some day it's just going to be me and a dog and one other guy. >> You went the wrong way. >> Yeah I went the wrong way and I took all the risk later. Now I was lucky in part that the transition worked. When I see younger folks, it's always like, do the riskiest thing humanly possible because the penalty is really small. You have to find a job in a year, right? But you know, you don't have the mortgage, and you don't have the kids to support. I think people have to build an arc around their careers that's suitable with their risk profile. Like maybe you don't buy into bitcoin at 19,000. Could be wrong, could be 50,000 sometime, but you know it's kind of 11 now and it's like-- >> Yeah don't go all in on 19, maybe take a little bit in. It's the play and run-- >> Dollar cost averaging over the years, that's my best fidelity advice. I think that's what's really important for people. >> What about the 45 year old executive out there, male or female obviously, the challenges of ageism? We're in economy, a gig economy, whatever you want to call, MVP economics, token economics, this is a new thing. Your advice to someone who's 45 who just says "Hey you're too old for our little hot startup." What should they do? >> Well being on the other side of that history I understand it firsthand. I think that you have an incumbent role in your career to constantly re-educate yourself. If you show up, whether you're a 25, 35, 45, 55, or 65, I hope I'm not working when I'm 75, but you never know right? (mumbles) >> You'll never stop working, that's my prediction. >> But you know have you mastered the new skills? Have you reinvented yourself along the way? I feel like I have a responsibility to feed the common household. My favorite part of my LinkedIn profile, it says, "Obedient worker bee at the Cohen household," because when I go home, I'm not in charge. I've always felt that it's up to me to make sure I'm not going to be irrelevant. That to me is, you know, that to me, I don't worry about ageism, I worry about did I-- >> John: Relevance. >> Yeah did I make myself self-obsolescent? I think if you're going to look at your career and you haven't looked at your career in 15 years and you're trying to do something, you may be starting from a deficit. So the question, what can I do? Before I make that jump, can I get involved, can I advise some small companies? Could I work part time and on the weekends and do some things so that when you finally make that transition, you have something to offer and you're relevant in the dialogue. I think that's, you know, nobody trains you, right? We're not good as an industry-- >> Having a good community, self-learning, growth mindset, always be relevant is not a bad strategy. >> Yeah, I mean because I find increasingly, I see people of all ages in companies. There is ageism, there is no doubt. There's financial ageism and then there's kind of psychological bias ageism, but if you keep yourself relevant and you are the up to speed in your thing, people will beat a path to want to work for you because there's still a skill gap in our industry-- >> And that's the key. >> Yeah, make sure that you're on the right side of that skill gap, and you will always have something to offer to people. >> Alan, great to have you come in the studio, great to see you, thanks for the commentary. It's a special CUBEConversation, we're talking about the future of technology impact the society and a range of topics that are emerging, we're on a pioneering, new generational shift and theCUBE is obviously covering the most important stories in Silicon Valley from figuring out what fake news is to impact to the humans around the world and again, we're doing our part to cover it. Alan Cohen, CUBEConversation, I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. (upbeat music)